[HELP] Spotting fake Revised Dual Lands

[Arsenal]

I'm watching an ebay seller that has revised duals lands that I want. He has a 98.5% score, about 260 total feedback. I've emailed him, asking him to send to high resolution scans of the front/back of all the cards I'm interested in (almost $1,000.00 in product). When/If I receive the scans, what should I be looking for? I have a bunch of other duals, but I really don't know what the indicators are. Help?

[cdr]

I'm no expert, and fakes have gotten by me before, but -

Unfortunately, a scan doesn't give you a lot of info. The thing to watch for would be the ink halftone (dots) - they're very distinctive on Magic cards, and bad fakes will screw them up either through loss in scanning or in printing. You'd need at least a 600 dpi scan to see it well, probably.

A physical card gives you a lot more info - how the sides/corners look, feel of the paper, etc.

Also, keep in mind that PayPal's policies overwhelmingly favor the buyer - unless the guy immediately removes the money from his paypal account, you can get your money back if you find out it's a fake. Even if he pulls the money, you can get his PayPal/eBay account closed if he doesn't refund you. And if you're prepared to get your PayPal account closed, you can pay via credit card and issue a chargeback against PayPal if they can't get your money back.

[Arsenal]

Hmm. Like I said, it's about 1,000 in product. But if I buy all the duals from an e-retailer, it would cost about 200-350 more, although I would have peace of mind... dammit. His feedback is most for $1-30 auctions, with a few $50-70 auctions sprinkled in. I think I'll pass; if a deal is too good to be true, it's usually because it is.

[cdr]

Wise words. For me, paying a little extra is almost always worth not having to deal with stuff like that.

If you happen to be going to a GP, you can almost always get better than online prices at dealer booths. Maybe not at Providence though, since it's legacy.

[jamesh]

help?
OK buy alpha/beta duals PSA or BGS rated
then you won't have to worry about this sort of thing
revised - really?!?

[Arsenal]

help?
OK buy alpha/beta duals PSA or BGS rated
then you won't have to worry about this sort of thing
revised - really?!?

Uh, yeah, sure buddy, I'll just go buy Beta playsets of Badlands, Savannah, Plateau, and Taiga. Not a problem at all. Thanks for the awesome advice!

[TheArchitect]

help?
OK buy alpha/beta duals PSA or BGS rated
then you won't have to worry about this sort of thing
revised - really?!?
Hey better idea, how about the OP just burns money? Since after all its not like he said right in the OP that he is trying to save money.

I've gotten lucky and never bought a fake duel, but I have friends that have. There was no way to really tell besides the fact that it was oddly inexpensive and from someone with not much feedback. However, it had the thickness and sturdyness of a playing card, not a magic card... With 260 feedback, it seems like he values his ebay account and I doubt he would risk everything to make a quick buck. Personally, if I had the money and desire for those duels, I would buy them to save the 200-300$. Worst case, they are fake and you can probably work it out with paypal to get your money back.

[Arsenal]

Basically, I'm trying to buy all the duals I don't have, and this seller has everything I want at good prices ($10-15 per card under what normal e-retailers have it at). 98.5% scares me, but all of his negative appears to be from Computer parts that he sold to buyers. I hesitate only because I've read a bunch of horror stories about people buying Revised dual fakes on ebay and the fact that this seller doesn't have a lot of high dollar sales in his history.

[honestabe]

If the card is real enough that you can't say for sure it its fake, who cares?

I presume you want it to play with it, so as long as it looks good enough that you can sleeve it up and head to a tournament, does it really matter how it got made?

[CorpT]

Basically, I'm trying to buy all the duals I don't have, and this seller has everything I want at good prices ($10-15 per card under what normal e-retailers have it at). 98.5% scares me, but all of his negative appears to be from Computer parts that he sold to buyers. I hesitate only because I've read a bunch of horror stories about people buying Revised dual fakes on ebay and the fact that this seller doesn't have a lot of high dollar sales in his history.

Not to be too much of a wet-blanket, but if you're nervous, it's probably for good reason. Probably a good idea to trust your gut.

[Arsenal]

If the card is real enough that you can't say for sure it its fake, who cares?

I presume you want it to play with it, so as long as it looks good enough that you can sleeve it up and head to a tournament, does it really matter how it got made?

Yes, because playing with proxies, even if they're very well done, at sanctioned tournaments is definitely the right call. Also, I care. I care if I'm paying $1,000 for the genuine article versus a well manufactured fake. Using your logic, art collectors should shell out the same amount of money on a well done Picasso replica as the original, because, hey, they look 99.9% the same.

[honestabe]

if it serves the same function, I don't care

[dahcmai]

Better yet, who is it? I think I've dealt with just about every dealer at one time or another. I go through a ton of stuff. Maybe i know them.

[DTC]

Can always just get a couple and see how it goes rather than blow the whole 1,000 - get the lowest end ones on the list so that burn doesn't hurt so much. If they're legit but gone by then, well it sucks, but if they're not and you buy them all in one go it would be worse off.

It's fine to be wary though. Revised duals are probably very easy for fakers to deal in. Compared to things like power and vintage these cards are floating around so much very few probably bother to check that they're real.

I checked recently for fun, and fortunately all have checked out just fine. Maybe i'm just lucky.

[yawg07]

Compared to things like power and vintage these cards are floating around so much very few probably bother to check that they're real.
A lot of the really good Vintage fakes are cut, split, and re-backed Collector's Edition and International Edition, though. You will see a LOT less Unlimited fakes than Beta.

That's always a funny thought.
If a fake is good enough to where you can't even tell at all by looking at it, it will never be questioned at a tournament.
It may not have a real tangible value so you can't sell it, but it can in fact provide a service and can enable you to win money/prizes.

[DTC]

That's always a funny thought.
If a fake is good enough to where you can't even tell at all by looking at it, it will never be questioned at a tournament.
It may not have a real tangible value so you can't sell it, but it can in fact provide a service and can enable you to win money/prizes.

I had been wondering the same thing when i checked mine. The more convincing fakes will probably get by tourney officials, especially for cards like revised duals. While not technically legal, it also helps if you do ever get the raw end of the deal with one, just know which dual it is so you don't trade it, but no one will question you unless the card thickness is different (and therefore can be marked/stacked) anyway.

[cdr]

A lot of the really good Vintage fakes are cut, split, and re-backed Collector's Edition and International Edition, though. You will see a LOT less Unlimited fakes than Beta.

That's always a funny thought.
If a fake is good enough to where you can't even tell at all by looking at it, it will never be questioned at a tournament.
It may not have a real tangible value so you can't sell it, but it can in fact provide a service and can enable you to win money/prizes.

I have definitely seen opponents spot fake cards a couple of times in tournaments. Knowingly playing fake cards in tournaments is really bad for you if you get caught.

[98ViperGTS]

help?
OK buy alpha/beta duals PSA or BGS rated
then you won't have to worry about this sort of thing
revised - really?!?

Both have had the unfortunate mistake of grading fake beta cards. Trust no one

[Koby]

Also, keep in mind that PayPal's policies overwhelmingly favor the buyer - unless the guy immediately removes the money from his paypal account, you can get your money back if you find out it's a fake. Even if he pulls the money, you can get his PayPal/eBay account closed if he doesn't refund you. And if you're prepared to get your PayPal account closed, you can pay via credit card and issue a chargeback against PayPal if they can't get your money back.

+100000000

Don't ever use your debit card to pay for eBay. The bank doesn't give a rat's ass about your money from authorized transactions. Credit Cards will honor your disputes and allow chargeback.

[cdr]

+100000000

Don't ever use your debit card to pay for eBay. The bank doesn't give a rat's ass about your money from authorized transactions. Credit Cards will honor your disputes and allow chargeback.

A little harsh - debit cards are just a separate system designed more to replace checks, without "customer dissatisfaction" chargebacks. Nothing wrong with debit cards, but I agree - you should probably use a credit card for anything more risky than buying groceries or gas. (And even then, with cash back rewards programs, you should probably be using credit for groceries and gas.)

It's nice to have the nuclear option of the chargeback, even if it means that your relationship with the merchant (eg PayPal) will quite possibly be terminated.

[Koby]

I got burned by my bank years ago when an auction went belly up. The bank refused to chargeback for the transaction, even when PayPal ruled in my favor (and couldn't recover any of the funds). Lesson learned. Luckily it wasn't more than $15 total, but still a loss.

[dahcmai]

It depends on bank policies anyway. My bank actually does refund money to you from scams. Then again, it's not a bank, it's a credit union.

Anyway, If you're not sure, pick up a tester. Buy one card and check it out for yourself. Compare it to a regular card from revised. Say a land or something. Shine a blacklight over both, feel the paper thickness on both. If you have access to a loupe, hunt for the telltale blue glue in the edges. Check the ink quality under a magnifying glass. They are generally pretty close, though revised cards do have some minute differences due to multiple printers back then.

To be honest though, it's really hard to catch a fake with some of them, but you can easily spot most. Sometimes, I will go to a major dealer in cards and ask them. Pick someone you know has a ton of experience. Some people just think they are good at it.

[thecrav]

You should tell me who this seller is so that I can buy all their stock and let you know whether I think they're real or not.

[sdematt]

I know there's a large number of collectors who stay away from some graded Beta cards. I've heard there are actually graded fakes out there. Can anyone confirm this? I've heard this multiple times over the years that some of the high priced graded Betas have been passed before.

Plus, graded duals are really expensive and unnecessary, especially if you want to play them.

-Matt

[Stifle]

Clipped out remarks....


@Arsenal

I've also dealt with fake cards in the past, but thankfully the experiences that I've had were with dealers I knew and visited fairly often. Everyone loves a bargain but like you said, I don't think it's worth the risk. Especially with large sums of cash.

[plus_ten]

Buy one card and check it out for yourself. Compare it to a regular card from revised. Say a land or something. Shine a blacklight over both, feel the paper thickness on both. If you have access to a loupe, hunt for the telltale blue glue in the edges. Check the ink quality under a magnifying glass. They are generally pretty close, though revised cards do have some minute differences due to multiple printers back then.


Is the bend test still a reliable test for fakes?

Also, should there be a difference in the printing 'hue' (the other word for this escapes me ATM) of the card? Like how some RV cards have a deeper or richer colour over a whiter border?

Good thread. Thanks to all those with good advice. I am a bit scared that some of my duals may not be genuine, though they do feel like they have the right texture (on touch).

[cdr]

Bend test will out just about any fake AFAIK, but real cards that are older can also end up creasing.

If you're going to do the bend test, might as well go one step better and do the tear test :)

[Occam]

A lot of the really good Vintage fakes are cut, split, and re-backed Collector's Edition and International Edition, though. You will see a LOT less Unlimited fakes than Beta.


Gus is right, because fakes done in this manner look identical to the real items, ie to say using a loupe to look at ink patterns will not tell you anything. Depending on the quality of the fake, they can also pass bend and light tests most of the time. UL and Rev fakes won't have this going for them, and they are likely to be created using printouts. These can be identified with loupes or high-res scans if the fake isn't high quality. Failing that, the light/blacklight tests are probably your best bet. Comparisons with an actual card are key. I won't suggest doing the bend test unless you have done it before. That mainly outs rebacks anyway, and Revised fakes aren't going to be rebacks.

The rules of thumb (outside of due diligence) which apply to fakes apply here too. Look for card wear -- inconsistent wear between the front and back is an alarm bell. The thickness of the card, cornering, the presence or lack of sheen (also front vs back) and so on are also decent rules of thumb to take note of. In the end, getting a sample could help, but the dealer could always send you an authentic sample while the rest of it is fake. If the only concern you have is that you're getting a deal that seems to good to be true, no harm done in asking for high res scans or a sample -- asking if you can pick up the cards in person even if you have no intentions of doing so is also a decent way to gauge authenticity. After all, selling outside of ebay saves quite a bit of fees.

With regards to graded fakes, of course it's possible. PSA and BGS aren't primarily mtg graders, and you can't blame them for not being able to differentiate fakes at times when some dealers would struggle to do the same with good fakes. Of course, they have a history of gaffes as well (wrong set names, grading signed cards as 10, sending a summer tundra I want to pick up on a 60day roundabout trip), but I don't think grading companies should be the gold standard with regards to authenticity.

[dahcmai]

I've seen a few fakes that passed the bend test with ease and were flat obvious they were fakes due to the ink being a little off. You can do it to eliminate a few of the bad ones, but you can usually notice those anyway. It's rough on cards anyway. I don't like doing that one anymore since they eventually are going to start trying to crease on you the more it's done especially on power since that was a decent way to eliminate the fakes back then and if there was any card back in those days worth bending, it was those.

Today, the fakes are impressive as hell. I've seen a couple that were flat amazing looking. I once even saw a fake of a fake. lol Someone actually remade a "Dark Beta" Mox. Dark Beta if you know the story was a set of power that got out from the early days by a person who got their hands on the original plates to print them. They were a lot darker than normal, but identical in every other way. Kind of a rarity in a way, though they should be worthless, they're not.

[Arsenal]

So it's been two days since I emailed the seller for high resolution scans of the front and backs of the cards, he initially replied right away saying that he'd email them to me ASAP. Nothing since then. This makes me feel even more now that he's selling fakes; the quantity available, the incredible low prices below market value, low value sales history, and the fact that he hasn't sent me high resolutions scans in 2 days makes me glad I didn't waste my money.

[chags]

I'd def hold off until I saw scans and even then I'd probably only buy one as a test. You could try emailing him to get him to put more on hold for you and just come up with some excuse why you can only get one immediately. Or just say screw it.

[Meekrab]

+100000000

Don't ever use your debit card to pay for eBay. The bank doesn't give a rat's ass about your money from authorized transactions. Credit Cards will honor your disputes and allow chargeback.
Even HAVING a debit card that can be used for online transactions is probably a bad idea given how shoddily most corporations protect customer data. You can get an ATM card that doesn't have actual transaction powers, talk to your bank.

[Rob Zilla]

\Sorry to resurrect a dead post especially since I just joined. Sure the bend test is a great indicator but if you are doing business online (across long distances) I would ask for high-res photos, and compare them with "authentic" cards online. A scan isn't really going to give the detail needed to expose the scams. However a good 7+ megapixel of top, back, and angle should reveal any suspicious crap, like permanent marker in alpha/beta or other original edition cards.
And yeah usually when my camera hits the back of a real card it seems to make an odd pattern, I guess due to the light being absorbed and reflected all over, kinda like swirls.

Akso, when MTG was brand new, nobody though Lotuses would reach 5 figures... hell I shuffled mine in my deck, along with my assortment of duals I was using. My point being the majority of people, I think, played with their magic cards so the genuine stuff should have some wear and tear. On the other hand, even revised duals have , in some case, gone up over $150 in value and with high quality printers and photo software it wouldn't be hard to make a proxy to easily fool a novice. Just learn all your key features of the set you're considering; RV, white border, no distinctive bevel like UNL, usually no copyright year (with exception of the rare "summer release")

As for eBay repaying you for fraudulent purchases, I've never had a problem. I once order about $80 of plants and the jerk sent me about 4 seeds. eBay quickly reimbursed me, even tho the crook didn't have the funds at the time, they simply put his account in the negative stopping him from doing any purchases until that was resolved. And there's been other cases.

Well that's my 2 cents on eBay correcting scams and frauds as well as some pointers to ensure an RV dual is real.

If you'd like to participate in a circle of MTG fans that focus on old cards, i.e., before 4th ed., check out the Vintage Magic group!

[Rob Zilla]

Not to be too much of a wet-blanket, but if you're nervous, it's probably for good reason. Probably a good idea to trust your gut.

If a guy has over a dozen of the same dual land... something's fishy