Team Canada

[Hanni]

So with the printing of Mental Misstep, my interest in blue-based aggro/control "tempo" decks like Canadian Threshold and Team America have again peaked my interest. While there are many other decks out there that I'd like to tinker with, with Mental Misstep, this sort of shell has the majority of my interest.

So what is Team Canada? Well, I've played with both Team America and Canadian Threshold, and there are many qualities of both decks that I really like. When trying to decide what shell to fit Mental Misstep into, I really wanted to play a mix between both decks.

Here's a rough list (edited 5/10/11):

Team Canada

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out

I really like Nimble Mongoose. Many people think that a 3/3 is underpowered these days, but I think he's extremely underrated for what he offers to a deck like this. He only costs 1 mana; this is so relevant for a deck that wants to be spending it's early game mana sources disrupting the opponent. Casting a Mongoose on turn 2, for example, leaves mana open for Stifle/Spell Snare. In a deck that prevents its opponent from doing much of anything during the early game... hell, even most of the midgame, a 3/3 Mongoose can easily chunk life points off of the opponent. Shroud is crazy good against control decks; a lone Mongoose can often seal games against them. Against aggro, he still has the ability to do a fair bit of damage before the deck needs to bring in the heavy hitters. Which brings me to...

Tombstalker. The guy is just nuts. Dissynergy with Goose/Goyf or not, the guy ends games, quickly. In a deck designed around so much early game tempo and disruption, having the ability to drop a 5/5 flier early is nasty. Being a 5/5 black flier makes him resilient to ground bound attackers, burn (as removal), black removal that can't target black creatures, and Moat, among others. Simply put, if Mongoose beats cannot grind the opponent out, or if there is a Goyf on Goyf stalemate, Tombstalker goes the distance.

Snuff Out is just such an awesome spell in a deck like this. I realize that the life loss is relevant, especially with fetchlands and Misstep, but I think it's worth the risk vs reward. The deck already utilizes so many other free spells, that Snuff Out just seems like it would accelerate the deck even more. The whole point of this deck is to literally dominate the early game, and Snuff Out does that in spades. The opponent will most likely not be resolving anything anyway, but if they do, a free removal spell is an awesome way to remove it.

It took me a while to decide on the counter package, since I really wanted Spell Pierce in there. Ultimately, I decided Spell Snare would be a better fit. Misstep + Spell Snare together do a great job of shutting down the early game. Stifle + Wasteland do a great job of preventing the opponent from hitting 3 lands. Once the opponent does hit 3 lands, they still have to contend with Daze and Force of Will. Most importantly, Spell Snare deals with creatures, which is relevant in a build with Nimble Mongoose. Spell Pierce may be a good sideboard option, so I'm still keeping it in mind. In the right metagame, I can see Spell Pierce being alot stronger than some of the other countermagic spells.

I'm still up in the air with the numbers. 1 Ponder is most likely too few, and I can probably cut the basic Island or trim down on some of the countermagic spells, maybe even drop the Tombstalker's down to 2. This is why this has been posted in developmental; to figure out an optimal configuration.

As far as sideboarding choices go, Krosan Grip seems obvious, and I think 1-2 Thrun, the Last Troll would be good too.

Also, if anyone has a better name for this than Team Canada (I'm not Canadian), feel free to offer suggestions.

Thoughts?

[Pich]

Decklist.
Wall of text.

Thoughts?

Nimble Mongoose + Tombstalker = Bad Synergy.

KTHXBYE.

Replace Tombstalker with Dark Confidant and Snuff Outs with Ghastly Demises/Smothers/Go for the throats.

[menace13]

This looks like Team America with Geese. 8 cantrips are vital to treshh decks, trading down 1 for 1 until Opponent is depleted and/or screwed is when the cantrip count becomes noticable. They dig for everything at 1 mana. Did you not like Hymn and why? Have you tried Dismember or GftT, they hit Bob and Stalker? Don't know about 4 maybe a 2/2 split with Snuff or Go For The Throat.

[Hanni]

Nimble Mongoose + Tombstalker = Bad Synergy.

KTHXBYE.

Replace Tombstalker with Dark Confidant and Snuff Outs with Ghastly Demises/Smothers/Go for the throats.

lol...

If you're Mongoose is going the distance, then you simply don't need to drop Tombstalker. If Mongoose can't go anywhere, shrinking him and dropping a 5/5 flier shouldn't be a problem. Lategame Tombstalker's can also be cast for a large enough amount to not go below 7 in the graveyard, and I'd gladly shrink my midgame Mongooses if dropping a Tombstalker means I can finish off my opponent before they recover. I realize there is dissynergy between the two, but I think the overall power of both cards outweighs the dissynergy.

Dark Confidant, meh. This deck doesn't have any lategame bombs, and unfortunately, cards like Daze and Stifle become alot less effective as the game drags on. Dark Confidant doesn't beat very hard, and drawing an extra card a turn during the midgame, when the cards have less value, doesn't coincide with this decks strategy. In a more control-oriented approach, I'd definitely side with Dark Confidant. In a deck that wants to disrupt the opponent early and then smash their face in before they can recover, Tombstalker is the clear winner if you ask me.

Maybe I'd go down to 2 Tombstalker's, but I wouldn't drop them completely. I'd recommend playtesting the creature package before dropping a "KTHXBYE" on my thread like an asshole.

Also, why should I run 2cc spot removal instead of a free spot removal spell? I want to dominate the early game, and free removal vs 2cc removal seems to facilitate that gameplan much better. Thanks for the blank suggestion though.

KTHXBYE


This looks like Team America with Geese. 8 cantrips are vital to treshh decks, trading down 1 for 1 until Opponent is depleted and/or screwed is when the cantrip count becomes noticable. They dig for everything at 1 mana. Did you not like Hymn and why? Have you tried Dismember or GftT, they hit Bob and Stalker? Don't know about 4 maybe a 2/2 split with Snuff or Go For The Throat.


Well, my train of thought going in was that with an increased threat and countermagic density, I'd need less dig power. Also, cantripping in and of itself sacrifices early tempo for card quality (i.e your spending mana sources to improve the quality of cards in hand rather than affect the board state). However, I agree that only 1 Ponder may be a bit low, and that 2-3 would be an improvement. It's a matter of figuring out what needs to get cut.

I like Hymn in Team America, but not in here. Hymn is a powerful card, but it's 2cc and creates card advantage rather than tempo. More countermagic, on the other hand, enables a larger tempo gain early. With the countermagic, the opponent spends mana resources casting spells that get countered, whereas the opponent spends nothing to lose 2 random cards in hand. It's a minor difference, but it's a fundamentally different approach.

How often does one see opposing Dark Confidant's or Tombstalker's, vs seeing artifact creatures? I'd wager that they are roughly the same. If a particular meta is saturated with black doods, the removal suite could be changed. If the overall meta shifts that way, the removal suite could be changed. As it stands now, I'd much rather run Snuff Out and depend on my countermagic to keep opposing Confidant's and Stalker's off the board. It's also possible to run additional removal in the sideboard to address black creatures, although I'm not sure that would be necessary.

[GGoober]

Nimble Mongoose + Tombstalker = Bad Synergy.

KTHXBYE.

Replace Tombstalker with Dark Confidant and Snuff Outs with Ghastly Demises/Smothers/Go for the throats.

This is the only problem in your list: Tombstalker with Nimble Mongoose. I'm not here to troll, because I was testing a UBr version of Dreadstalker with Lavamancer thinking that I can afford some cards to support an early-game/late-game lavamancer while still be able to cast a 5/5 flyer for BB to 2BB mana cost. I was wrong.

Now, Mongoose + Tombstalker is an even worse disynergy than Lavamancer + Tombstalker (since you always need 7 in your yard or a 1/1 shroud does nothing in the format). If you disagree, it's your deck/opinion/testing, but I'm just stating the testing I've done withTombstalker with other GY-cards to be not worthwhile. Goyf works because his effect is applied even from your opponent's yards, and is the only reason why Goyf + tombstalker is a successful choice of creature for Team America. I personally have a strong taste for Dreadstalker (if you're looking for a 1cmc creature that fulfills your goals on wining game fast while having a disruptive shell that protects its win-condition).

[Jeff Kruchkow]

What do you think about Dismember over Snuff Out? I know it costs one mana but it also lets you scale back the life loss later on if need be and it can hit opposing black creatures such as Bob or other 'Stalkers.

[Mark Sun]

What are the results looking like in testing?

To be honest this deck may impart characteristics of both Team America and Canadian Thresh, but you're missing out some of the key pieces of both decks. Team America attacks resources, which is why countermagic and discard are so important to the game plan. Removing the discard and relying solely on countermagic to get there seems poor. Likewise, Canadian Threshold utilized Mongoose/Goyf for the early game and used burn for reach and to seal games. Here, if you get close, you will have a problem sealing the deal. It may seem good on paper but I'm having a hard time believing. The life loss from your spells is too much, at the very least run a 2 Snuff Out / 2 Go for the Throat removal package like the traditional Team America list.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm actually working on a deck similar to this...but I opted for the Loam engine to synergize w/Wasteland/cycle lands. Noxious Revival seems to be really strong as another free play to support your early game as well. Because of Loam/cyclers, I'm using Terravore in lieu of Goyf but I'm still using Tombstalker. I may be using Snuff Out, but with Revival/Misstep/fetches dinging me for life, it becomes almost a suicide rush sort of deck. I like the idea of Werebear feeding me mana in the early- mid-game for cycling and then hitting for 4 in the late game, but Nimble Mongoose seems to be slightly outclassed in the current metagame. Just my thoughts.

[Koby]

I also had some success with Intuition/Loam/EE/Ruinz package in my UBg build. It's a good way to stock up the yard, and give you inevitable board control in the long game. Tombstalker was used as a finisher in those situations.

IMO You can't drop Hymn, as it's one of the more important spells for the deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I also had some success with Intuition/Loam/EE/Ruinz package in my UBg build. It's a good way to stock up the yard, and give you inevitable board control in the long game. Tombstalker was used as a finisher in those situations.

IMO You can't drop Hymn, as it's one of the more important spells for the deck.

Were you splashing green only for Loams or were you playing Goyfs? I was thinking of using cycle lands + Terravore in my deck, which seems pretty strong.

As far as Hymn goes, I was planning on abusing 3x Raven's Crime. While it may not be as powerful in the short run, it gets absurd in the long run by keeping your opponent's hand cleaned out with the Loam engine.

@Hanni: how do you feel about Ghastly Demise or Smother? I know that Snuff Out is free I'm seriously looking at it because of the Loam Engine, and your points about Mongoose/Tombstalker make a lot of sense. I'll most likely be playing Mongoose in my build now. As you say, if Mongoose is getting you there, great! If not, play the evasive Tombstalker and use Mongoose as chump fodder. I think with Loam, I can probably pull BOTH off TBH...which makes me like Loam all the more. I understand what you're doing here (which I believe is to upgrade a BUg tempo list with Mental Misstep) I'm just taking a different tack by looking at Loam/cyclers as my mid-game plan. One thing I've always hated about fast tempo decks is that if you can weather their first 1-3 turns, you can usually OWN them in the midgame. For this reason I wanted a card advantage engine. Bob can help, but there are a ton of options (Loam, Bitterblossom, Big Jace). I ended up with Loam because of Noxious Revival, which makes your early game even BETTER. Your whole graveyard becomes available throughout the game with Revival, and that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside...because the other route is Regrowth or Eternal Witness. Blah, I'd rather double up on Mental Misstep/Wasteland/fetchlands/removal/counterspells in the first few turns with Noxious Revival.

Some thoughts...curious what you think Hanni. I posted a thread called "Phyrexian Loam" in the new and developmental decks section and I would love to hear your thoughts on the concept.

[Koby]

Goyf was definitely part of the plan. Loam just provides an endless amount of Wastelands against control too. It's there to setup both long-term games against mid-range and control via Wasteland and EE recursion. Also randomly tutors up FOW in a pinch.

[Mr. Safety]

Goyf was definitely part of the plan. Loam just provides an endless amount of Wastelands against control too. It's there to setup both long-term games against mid-range and control via Wasteland and EE recursion. Also randomly tutors up FOW in a pinch.

How do you feel about 2-3 Raven's Crime? Did you ever have trouble getting to 3 mana for Intution (translation: how many lands did you play?)

[Hanni]

This is the only problem in your list: Tombstalker with Nimble Mongoose. I'm not here to troll, because I was testing a UBr version of Dreadstalker with Lavamancer thinking that I can afford some cards to support an early-game/late-game lavamancer while still be able to cast a 5/5 flyer for BB to 2BB mana cost. I was wrong.

Now, Mongoose + Tombstalker is an even worse disynergy than Lavamancer + Tombstalker (since you always need 7 in your yard or a 1/1 shroud does nothing in the format). If you disagree, it's your deck/opinion/testing, but I'm just stating the testing I've done withTombstalker with other GY-cards to be not worthwhile. Goyf works because his effect is applied even from your opponent's yards, and is the only reason why Goyf + tombstalker is a successful choice of creature for Team America. I personally have a strong taste for Dreadstalker (if you're looking for a 1cmc creature that fulfills your goals on wining game fast while having a disruptive shell that protects its win-condition).

Grim Lavamancer with Tombstalker is a little different than Tombstalker with Nimble Mongoose. Grim Lavamancer eats at the graveyard, preventing you from casting Tombstalker early. On the contrary, Nimble Mongoose doesn't prevent Tombstalker from being cast early. Shrinking Mongoose from 3/3 back to 1/1 seems like a fair trade if I know a 5/5 flier is going to go the distance for me. Besides, it's not out of the question to rebuild my graveyard back up the achieve Threshold.

If Mongoose beats are doing the job, I can either not cast Tombstalker, or just not draw it through cantripping or whatnot. There are plenty of decks out there with dissynergy between cards that do so because the cards themselves are extremely powerful. I typically prefer synergy over raw power, but in a deck like this that wants to beat as hard as possible while the opponent is disrupted, I think the individual power of the two creatures outweighs the risk.

Many people may disagree with me on this, and I guess that's just the way it's going to be. Unless they print another evasive undercosted big beater, I'll stick to the Tombstalker's.


What do you think about Dismember over Snuff Out? I know it costs one mana but it also lets you scale back the life loss later on if need be and it can hit opposing black creatures such as Bob or other 'Stalkers.


Costing 1 mana kinda defeats the purpose though. It's not something I'd necessarily write off, but until I start running into major issues with Snuff Out, that aren't outweighed by the benefits of it (free), I'll stick to Snuff Out for now.


What are the results looking like in testing?

To be honest this deck may impart characteristics of both Team America and Canadian Thresh, but you're missing out some of the key pieces of both decks. Team America attacks resources, which is why countermagic and discard are so important to the game plan. Removing the discard and relying solely on countermagic to get there seems poor. Likewise, Canadian Threshold utilized Mongoose/Goyf for the early game and used burn for reach and to seal games. Here, if you get close, you will have a problem sealing the deal. It may seem good on paper but I'm having a hard time believing. The life loss from your spells is too much, at the very least run a 2 Snuff Out / 2 Go for the Throat removal package like the traditional Team America list.

This deck is more like Canadian Threshold than Team America. The only thing ported over from Team America was Tombstalker and Snuff Out. Tombstalker, because I think a big 5/5 flier is a better way to finish games than a light burn package. Snuff Out, because free removal faciliates the tempo advantage even further.

I'm not discrediting the resource denial of Team America in the slightest. That's just simply not what I want out of this deck. Hymn may win games on the basis of destroying an opponent's hand, but it doesn't prevent them from turning around and dropping a bomb the next turn. Countermagic prevents spells from resolving; if I can prevent my opponent from resolving spells for the first 4+ turns in the game, chances seem pretty good that I'm going to win that game (so long as I can apply the beatdown before they finally do resolve something).

I think sealing the deal with Tombstalker is a more consistent plan than sealing the deal with a light burn package, so long as I can protect him, and I feel like Mental Misstep goes a long way towards making Tombstalker a much stronger finisher.

If the lifeloss does become significant during testing, maybe I'll do some sort of split. For now, I'd like to do alot of testing with the 4 Snuff Out's. I should be able to apply more aggression than Team America do to my increased threat density, especially down low (1cc Mongoose). We'll see. You may be right, but I'd rather playtest with 4 first.

@ Intuition/Loam

I've playtested with Intuition/Loam builds extensively, particularly the aggro/control variety. Those decks are very strong, but I never attempted to fit it into a tempo shell. There's was always too much room being taken up with Intuition/Loam to really fit the additional tempo elements into it. I have not tinkered with an Intution/Loam deck in a while, but when I left off, I was in Bant colors for Knight of the Reliquary and Swords to Plowshares. If you'd like to look at the list, I can go dig it up in the old Intuition Threshold thread and post up a link to it. It may be a little outdated, though.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that Tombstalker is more of a finisher in this deck, rather than primary guy like he is in Team America. Once Nimble Mongoose isn't going the distance anymore, or there is a ground stalemate that Goyf cannot push through, that's when Tombstalker comes down to seal the game up. I'm going to cut 1 Island and 1 Tombstalker for 2 more Ponder's and playtest with that configuration for a while and see how it goes. I'll update the OP decklist to reflect this change.

[Michael Keller]

Grim Lavamancer with Tombstalker is a little different than Tombstalker with Nimble Mongoose. Grim Lavamancer eats at the graveyard, preventing you from casting Tombstalker early. On the contrary, Nimble Mongoose doesn't prevent Tombstalker from being cast early. Shrinking Mongoose from 3/3 back to 1/1 seems like a fair trade if I know a 5/5 flier is going to go the distance for me. Besides, it's not out of the question to rebuild my graveyard back up the achieve Threshold.

But it really isn't when you consider how relevant your graveyard becomes when maximizing the effectiveness of your win-conditions. Staring down a 1/1 Nimble Mongoose really isn't that threatening, and considering you have expedited through enough resources early on to bring your graveyard count high enough to achieve Threshold or enough to hit Tombstalker with Delve, you're probably not sitting on more than three or four cards in your hand - some to initially protect your investment - which would in turn make it more difficult to rebuild your graveyard count back up to a reasonable size to increase the effectiveness of your eight other creatures besides Tombstalker.

I'm not insinuating it matters much when you consider you have only three Tombstalkers, but it becomes more relevant when you need to make sure you're off-setting the unprecedented amount of damage you're taking off a full set of Snuff-Out, Missteps, Forces, and Fetches with the maximum amount of damage you ultimately can try to inflict otherwise. You want to put yourself in a position to deal the most damage possible.

It just seems like your win-cons live and die by your graveyard count, which might not be a good thing. Is shoring-up your graveyard worth it early on to bank on Tombstalker getting there as opposed to Mongoose or (Wall of) Tarmogoyf?

[Hanni]

It just seems like your win-cons live and die by your graveyard count, which might not be a good thing. Is shoring-up your graveyard worth it early on to bank on Tombstalker getting there as opposed to Mongoose or (Wall of) Tarmogoyf?


This is essentially the risk vs reward. I cut down to 2 Tombstalker's for now to minimize the risk a little (mainly because I know the deck needs more Ponder's and I didn't really want to dip into the countermagic package).


I'm not insinuating it matters much when you consider you have only three Tombstalkers, but it becomes more relevant when you need to make sure you're off-setting the unprecedented amount of damage you're taking off a full set of Snuff-Out, Missteps, Forces, and Fetches with the maximum amount of damage you ultimately can try to inflict otherwise. You want to put yourself in a position to deal the most damage possible.

If I'm up against heavy burn Zoo decks all day, then the risk vs reward of the suicide plan is probably loose. If I'm playing against more traditional (i.e less aggressive) aggro decks, I think this deck should be capable of outracing the opponent. If they cannot resolve anything for the first several turns in the game, they should be behind enough that my 3/3's, 4/5's, and 5/5 fliers can apply more than enough pressure to balance out my early life loss. Keep in mind, after the first few turns in the game, Mental Misstep is probably being hardcasted, I probably don't need to be cracking any more fetchlands, and eventually even Snuff Out is capable of being hardcasted.


But it really isn't when you consider how relevant your graveyard becomes when maximizing the effectiveness of your win-conditions. Staring down a 1/1 Nimble Mongoose really isn't that threatening, and considering you have expedited through enough resources early on to bring your graveyard count high enough to achieve Threshold or enough to hit Tombstalker with Delve, you're probably not sitting on more than three or four cards in your hand - some to initially protect your investment - which would in turn make it more difficult to rebuild your graveyard count back up to a reasonable size to increase the effectiveness of your eight other creatures besides Tombstalker.


Ok, I will concede the point that rebuilding the graveyard is going to be more difficult than initially building it up. However, it also depends greatly on how early Tombstalker is getting cast. If he doesn't get dropped until turn 5, there's a good chance he's only eating up a few cards from a graveyard that is larger than 7.

[Mr. Safety]

@Hanni: This Intution/Loam idea really has my mind racing...I'd like to propose a list (hopefully not deraling your thread) and PLEASE, let me know where I'm falling short. I agree with you about fitting in the tempo elements...which is fine because I'm a budget player, lol. I do not have Goyfs or duels either, so bear with me.


Creatures (11)

4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Tombstalker
4x Werebear

Spells (29)

4x Brainstorm
2x Intuition
4x Mental Misstep
3x Noxious Revival
4x Spell Pierce
3x Life from the Loam
2x Raven's Crime
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Smother

Lands (20)

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Breeding Pool
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
4x Barren Moor
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp