[SCD] Batterskull

[Grollub]

Grudge on Batterskull wasn't a misplay, he needed to "bounce" it to have any chance of staying in the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's definitely a situation where Batterskull is better than another equipment.

But late game in the control mirror where you're worried about targeted artifact removal doesn't seem the most common thing in the world. This is why it's important not to just look for comparative advantages, but to count them.

By contrast, one of the most common control cards maindeck is Jace. Shackles and Repeal aren't far behind. Batterskull is one of the worst equipments against these cards.

[dahcmai]

Can we all just agree that it's actually playable due to Stoneforge? It's not better than Jitte, that just dumb to say. Batterskull doesn't do the largest ability of Jitte, having the versatility of killing creatures, lifegain, and pump all in one. No one in their right mind should be disputing that. Though Batterskull does have the nice ability to turn any critter into a scary monster.

It has it's uses obviously. I only said it doesn't have a use in my deck. Though it does make me want to add more land just so I can use it. I only run 21 land so it's not a consideration for me. I'd give it a shot if I had more.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've been following the coverage on ggslive a lot, and I've seen exactly one game in the numerous caw-blade mirrors where it had utility over one of the top three.

I mean as long as we're on 1/2s, Metal Worker is clearly better than SFM if you can reliably play it and untap with it. But in reality SFM is better because you don't care if it dies, and you can draw all the cards you're playing to make it work without SFM and have them still be quite good.

Batterskull changes that. It turns removal on your SFMs into actual card parity in most situations outside of a stall, and it's a dead draw most games.

There's situations where it's good, but it reminds me more of people talking about how Thresh is good because of Mental Note than anything else; a good card hides the weaknesses in Legacy of another card. I mean Mental Note was good when it turns on your entire board, but the vast majority of the time it was just bad card draw.

I mean I want to clarify again that I think Batterskull is a great Standard card and for EDH, but its uses in Legacy are extremely niche. Unless you're dealing with lots of slow control mirrors that don't run Jace, I don't think it's worth running; and I don't think it's ever worth running over Jitte and the Mirrodin Swords.

To retouch on my previous post, Legacy, from a deckbuilding perspective, is quite lopsided. There's a fairly small pool of nuts and bolts that you can select from that will make a deck work; the cheap stuff, mainly, Tops, StP/PtE, Brainstorm, Force, Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Aether Vial, Noble Hierarch, Grim Lavamancer, Confidant, Goyf. Basically cards that are going to show up in that banner on the top of the site. Mental Misstep was a big deal because it clearly fit in this category.

Past that, and especially in the 3+ mana range, the options increase drastically while the number you can actually fit into a competitive deck goes down. There's a wide pool of cards here with not that much actual difference in power; this is where cards tend to see play more due to group-think than anything else. Selecting what cards to run in your non-generic slots is the most difficult part of deckbuilding and what ultimately defines your deck.

A decklist starts with;

4 Goyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

That's about 2/3 of your deck and it's mostly non-negotiable. The challenging part is figuring out the rest of the deck. You could add Stifles and Dazes and Ponders and you have New Horizons. You can add Repeal and Jace and Counterspell and Standstills and you're playing Knightstill. You could turn it into NO Bant by cutting a few copies of your green guys for Horizons, adding in GSZ and Noble Hierachs. You could fit in SFM and Tops and equipment and Hierarchs.

But these are the safe options. To a large extent Legacy deckbuilders are timid; people rarely have the balls of someone like Drew Levin to play Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions in a modern GP, or even, don't tell him I said this, David Gearhart blowing out AJ Sacher with Koths. You could run Eternal Witness to get back B-storms and StPs and Wastelands; you could run Wrath with Repeals and Jace to keep your own dudes alive and blow out your opponents creatures, or Parallax Wave. You could run Troll Ascetic with your SFM as the world's best equipment-carrier and Deed-dodger. You could run Living Wish to grab Knights and Karakas and Bojuka Bog and Llawan. You could go the Life from the Loam route. Throw in Trinket Mages and Tops and CB with EE + Ruins. Throw in Rafiq of the Many or Mirran Crusader and exploit equipment. Throw in Tezzeret the Seeker and the Thoper-Foundry combo.

Or you could ditch all your safe cards and make this Bant Slivers, or Fauna Shaman UG/Madness, or Reveillark. Go full Soorani style control and forego creatures entirely.

There's this idea that because some pros play Legacy sometimes now, that it's become developed. But it hasn't. It's a big scary ocean and people are still still splashing around in the shallow end. The possibilities are incredibly untapped.

[Rizso]

I mean I want to clarify again that I think Batterskull is a great Standard card and for EDH, but its uses in Legacy are extremely niche. Unless you're dealing with lots of slow control mirrors that don't run Jace, I don't think it's worth running; and I don't think it's ever worth running over Jitte and the Mirrodin Swords.

They dont replace Jitte or sofi with Batterskull, its in addtional to thoes. Batterskull imo make stoneforge an even better card then it already was.

[bakofried]

Batterskull is weak to Jace, which is hugely popular right now.

[Shawon]

Not if you have Mystic already in play. You can bounce Batterskull yourself and cheat it back with SFM.

[CorpT]

It really is funny to see people continue to argue about this in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[bakofried]

Show me this evidence. Show me the games where Batterskull is superior to the Swords or Jitte. Don't show me winning decklists that have Batterskull; that does not constitute proof.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It really is funny to see people continue to argue about this in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

You should go back and read the posts where I explained why, "some pros are winning with 1x Batterskull in their Caw Blade + Legacy staples deck" isn't actually a very good argument, because I don't have the time or patience to retype it all with slightly different wording.

[HAVE HEART]

The reasons a player uses Batterskull is because some decks do not want to run more than eight creatures. It is agreeable that equipment suck ass without any creatures (generally why equipment are awful in Legacy). Batterskull acts as a recurring creature, and saying that the control deck will not hit five lands means that the control player had no chance of winning (control NECESSARILY needs at least five lands in order to win the game). It is obvious that other equipment are better when playing a good amount of creatures, say 16+, but the "breakout" deck of the tournament is running five creatures.

[bruizar]

I think all is said and done here. As far as I'm concerned, this thread can get locked. I achieved what I wanted, which was to discuss the viability of Batterskull. Right now, this thread isn't going anywhere and its on the verge of derailing into flames.

Haters gonna hate, attempting to save some face.

[Jak]

My favorite part about this is people insisting Batterskull is worse than Jitte, SoFI, or SoLS "96%" of the time. Let me get to the punch line though:

Owen Turtenwald - Day 1 Undefeated, Top 8

4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
3 Meddling Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God

But, then again, I'm blindly following the pros so what do I know.

[bruizar]

Better than blindly following the noobs *ahum*

@InfamousBear:
Also, if I were blindly following anyone, why the hell did I need to create an SCD thread for it myself?

[Tammit67]

I really doubt you'll be saying that in 6 months

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Better than blindly following the noobs *ahum*

@InfamousBear:
Also, if I were blindly following anyone, why the hell did I need to create an SCD thread for it myself?

I love your dishonest attempt to make it look like I was the one who said this.

I would prefer someone pimping Batterskull provide some real arguments that aren't, "Pros stuck one in their SFM decks".

[Artowis]

I really doubt you'll be saying that in 6 months

...Is this real? Honestly? Because nothing else could possibly change to make this card a worse option over six months OTHER THAN 'oh everybody? i had a revelation. 1 of the 2-3 total equipments we ran was shit, let's not use it.'

EDIT: Legacy: Where results don't matter regardless of the size of tournament or number of large tournaments. Unless you want to insult someone with them. Then they matter.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A list top 8'd with Stoneforge and no Batterskull. By the same argument all the idiots in this thread were using, Batterskull is therefore shit. I GUESS THIS IS HOW ARGUMENTS WORK NOW.

Sorry about that time I wasted trying to formulate actual explanations for why things are.

[dschalter]

I love your dishonest attempt to make it look like I was the one who said this.

I would prefer someone pimping Batterskull provide some real arguments that aren't, "Pros stuck one in their SFM decks".

The real argument had already been made: it's a strong creature that comes back again and again in a control deck. You don't need lots of dorks to make it work (as you do for other equipment).

[Jak]

A list top 8'd with Stoneforge and no Batterskull. By the same argument all the idiots in this thread were using, Batterskull is therefore shit. I GUESS THIS IS HOW ARGUMENTS WORK NOW.

Sorry about that time I wasted trying to formulate actual explanations for why things are.

Lol, look through the thread again. This thread was created to discuss this card, and people said things like this:


This is not a Legacy playable card, it's an indulgence.

There isn't much to argue anymore.

[Tammit67]

...Is this real? Honestly? Because nothing else could possibly change to make this card a worse option over six months OTHER THAN 'oh everybody? i had a revelation. 1 of the 2-3 total equipments we ran was shit, let's not use it.'

EDIT: Legacy: Where results don't matter regardless of the size of tournament or number of large tournaments. Unless you want to insult someone with them. Then they matter.

Yes it is real. I believe it is more popular right now than it ought to be. Will Fisher and Drew Levin both have Ancestral Visions maindeck right now, but no one is calling that the greatest tech ever because it is OLD. The only reason you are talking about it now is because it is NEW.

I'll concede it has some merit when everyone and their grandmother is running SFM. Of course it is good in what is becoming known as StandardStill. But the legacy I know and love is faster than this. Zoo was the second most successful archetype day 2, behind folk (IIRC). When people realize what John Kubilis or Nick Patnode did and that misstep does not kill aggro, we will not have such a slow format that playing Batterskull is correct in most cases.

Is this conjecture? Of course. But it is what I believe to be correct. One, albeit important, tournament does not an analysis make. If we still see Batterskull a couple months from now putting up these numbers, than I am not as clairvoyant as I hoped to be.

Edit: Ok a couple of tournaments, but we need some time is what I'm saying

[Grollub]

I would prefer someone pimping Batterskull provide some real arguments that aren't, "Pros stuck one in their SFM decks".
How about: "Pros stuck one in their SFM decks and won with it"?

It's kinda hard to argue when theorycrafting is weighted heavier than cold emperical facts...

[bruizar]

One, albeit important, tournament does not an analysis make.

You forget Bazaar of Moxen and Starcitygames Open. That makes 3 huge events within the first month.

[Artowis]

Yes it is real. I believe it is more popular right now than it ought to be. Will Fisher and Drew Levin both have Ancestral Visions maindeck right now, but no one is calling that the greatest tech ever because it is OLD. The only reason you are talking about it now is because it is NEW.

I'll concede it has some merit when everyone and their grandmother is running SFM. Of course it is good in what is becoming known as StandardStill. But the legacy I know and love is faster than this. Zoo was the second most successful archetype day 2, behind folk (IIRC). When people realize what John Kubilis or Nick Patnode did and that misstep does not kill aggro, we will not have such a slow format that playing Batterskull is correct in most cases.

Is this conjecture? Of course. But it is what I believe to be correct. One, albeit important, tournament does not an analysis make. If we still see Batterskull a couple months from now putting up these numbers, than I am not as clairvoyant as I hoped to be.

bazaar of moxen, SCG louisville, etc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How about: "Pros stuck one in their SFM decks and won with it"?

It's kinda hard to argue when theorycrafting is weighted heavier than cold emperical facts...

SFM-Batterskull was played by a shit ton of really good players with byes. Exactly one deck top 8'd with it, which was the same as the number of SFM decks that top 8'd with zero Batterskulls.

This is a pretty underwhelming performance.

Does that alone mean that Batterskull is bad? No. Decks underperform for lots of reasons. But SFM-Batterskull decks have underperformed, so even if "look at the results in this one tournament" were a decent argument, which it isn't, it would work against Batterskull in this situation.

I mean the strict performance ratio of SFM decks with Batterskull vs without is like 1:5 at least, let alone the rest of the field.

Everyone who was screaming about results from one tournament proving everything can basically go die in a fire here.

[Jak]

SFM-Batterskull was played by a shit ton of really good players with byes. Exactly one deck top 8'd with it, which was the same as the number of SFM decks that top 8'd with zero Batterskulls.

This is a pretty underwhelming performance.

Does that alone mean that Batterskull is bad? No. Decks underperform for lots of reasons. But SFM-Batterskull decks have underperformed, so even if "look at the results in this one tournament" were a decent argument, which it isn't, it would work against Batterskull in this situation.

How did SFM-Batterskull under-perform?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How did SFM-Batterskull under-perform?

Because significantly more than 1/8th of the field, especially the field with 3 byes, was playing it.

[Jak]

Because significantly more than 1/8th of the field, especially the field with 3 byes, was playing it.

Link? I can't find a day 1 archetype breakdown.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Link? I can't find a day 1 archetype breakdown.

I freely admit I'm extrapolating from feature match coverage and the reports of people on ggslive, who all talked about SFM-Batterskull being ubiquitous.

Having rightly predicted that Mental Misstep was going to perform up to the hype, and that Batterskull wouldn't, I'll go ahead and admit that I didn't anticipate Owen's Landstill-type list, using SFM basically as its only big win condition with Batterskulls.

I don't like that sort of build- I think there's better ways to combine creatures and Landstill, like Knightstill; I would pretty much always rather have Knight. But it is a completely different use than I thought of.

In an otherwise normal creature based deck, I certainly don't think Batterskull makes the cut though. Rynkiewicz's list is exactly where I think SFM is strong, and where it's completely correct not to play Batterskull (but incorrect not to play SoFI/SoLS).

[Tammit67]

Link? I can't find a day 1 archetype breakdown.

There was a link up for the better half of today before they took it down. No idea when it will be back up and can't find it again

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's this (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/day2#2), although it doesn't tell us anything about deck content.

[Jak]

It was up for the better half of today before they took it down. No idea when it will be back up.

The day 2 one is up but I don't think there was a day one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Batterskull gets knocked out in the quarters, non-Batterskull SFM goes to the top 2.

Where are all the people that were talking about how anecdata settles everything coming out now talking about how Batterskull is terrible?

Weird. It's almost like this was a lazy rationalization.

It's cool, I'll take the apologies as implicit.

[Jak]

Batterskull gets knocked out in the quarters, non-Batterskull SFM goes to the top 2.

Where are all the people that were talking about how anecdata settles everything coming out now talking about how Batterskull is terrible?

Weird. It's almost like this was a lazy rationalization.

It's cool, I'll take the apologies as implicit.

Jack, where is your stance on Batterskull? Do you still believe it to be unplayable in Legacy?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you are adding Stoneforge Mystic to a deck, I don't think there's any time that it's correct to add Batterskull. That's not to say that playing it will kill you somehow, but that it's just not optimal.

If you're actually building your deck around Stoneforge Mystic-Batterskull, that's a different question. I don't think that's a good enough combo to build a control deck around; there's lots more cards that have more inevitability, although getting a lifelinking vigilance dude out is night. Protecting an SFM from removal is rubbish though.

In control it looks like a mild upgrade to Exalted Angel, but I'd rather just run Elspeth.

[Bardo]

I gave the subject of this thread very little thought. Honestly, at first, I thought it was a joke.

That said, Turtenwald's T8 deck at today's GP is pretty fascinating.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/welcome#0

[dahcmai]

I like it also, it's very direct in what it does. Probably a perfect example for this thread of a deck that is dedicated to Batterskull and about the only deck that could play it and not have the card be bleh.

[GGoober]

I gave the subject of this thread very little thought. Honestly, at first, I thought it was a joke.

That said, Turtenwald's T8 deck at today's GP is pretty fascinating.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/welcome#0

Nice list, intriguing for most parts as I'm wondering what was his intention with the list he built.

Anyway, 7/8 decks with 4 Maindeck Mental Misstep!! Now that's a showing of format-breaking and penetration. I'm still on the bandwagon that Batterskull isn't ideally good in SFM decks, but I won't say it's a crappy card either. I just want to point out that Batterskull and Jitte serve two very different purpose, and should be used depending on what the meta demands. For most parts. I'll still go with Jitte as a fallback universally powerful equipment in any scenarios I can think of, while I'll opt for Batterskull when I want to have a stronger mid-game plan.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The thing I like about Owen's list is that it doesn't really use Batterskull like an equipment, it uses it like a weird amaglam of Exalted Angel and Eternal Dragon. Batterskull reaches a much higher power level in the late game, and his deck is designed to get to the late game.

I think this strategy is still inferior to just running planeswalkers, manlands and maybe DoJ, but at least it makes sense.

[Bardo]

I'll cut/paste it here.

Stoneforge Control
Owen Turtenwald
Top 8 - GP Providence

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Batterskull
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God

Ballsy, with a lot of non-obvious decisions. Went undefeated Day 1 and lost to Hive Mind in the T8.

[Koby]

So it's pretty much UW landstill with SFM to tutor up the "Baneslayer"? Guess he must have outplayed many people along the way.

[Tammit67]

The deck does just crush midrange strategies sometimes. *Shudder*

[Koby]

On the same token, PV crushed with BUG-still just as well. Both strategies are good in this metagame; but is it strictly due to Batterskull? Are there better tools in UW Landstill available? How does it compare to Elspeth in the same slot? Or rather, how does it compare to the same 5 slots used up by SFM/Skull. Is there enough luxury to run that? Are more slots needed for other tools? How does it compare to GerryT's UW Landstill? etc

Is Batterskull the premise for this deck winning, or just along for the ride?


What deck did you play and why?
U/W Stoneforge Mystic because it is new, different and very good.

Emphasis added.
Reference to other good placements:
UW Landstill (3/498) - Bazaar of Moxen IV - Wafo-Tapo - 5/15/2010 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=41&iddeck=283)
UW Landstill (2/146) - SCG Legacy Open: Orlando - Gerry Thompson - 5/15/2011 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6127&iddeck=44414)
UWg Landstill (11/633) - Bazaar of Moxen V - Selim Creiche - 5/14/2011 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6147&iddeck=44563)

[Final Fortune]

On the same token, PV crushed with BUG-still just as well. Both strategies are good in this metagame; but is it strictly due to Batterskull? Are there better tools in UW Landstill available? How does it compare to Elspeth in the same slot? Or rather, how does it compare to the same 5 slots used up by SFM/Skull. Is there enough luxury to run that? Are more slots needed for other tools? How does it compare to GerryT's UW Landstill? etc

Is Batterskull the premise for this deck winning, or just the along for the ride?



Emphasis added.
Reference to other good placements:
UW Landstill (3/498) - Bazaar of Moxen IV - Wafo-Tapo - 5/15/2010 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=41&iddeck=283)
UW Landstill (2/146) - SCG Legacy Open: Orlando - Gerry Thompson - 5/15/2011 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6127&iddeck=44414)
UWg Landstill (11/633) - Bazaar of Moxen V - Selim Creiche - 5/14/2011 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6147&iddeck=44563)

You can't compare Stoneforge Mystic/Batter Skull and Elspeth on a straight up basis, because SFM/Skull is a lot more efficient and difficult to remove against tribal. SFM/Skull is more like a white Tarmogoyf, it stabilizes the board instead of locking it down.

The card has pretty much proven itself, in low threat density decks like Hawk control it's just better to run a self sufficient threat than equipment that gets neutralized and out tempoed by spot removal.

[Koby]

You can't compare Stoneforge Mystic/Batter Skull and Elspeth on a straight up basis, because SFM/Skull is a lot more efficient and difficult to remove against tribal. SFM/Skull is more like a white Tarmogoyf, it stabilizes the board instead of locking it down.

The card has pretty much proven itself, in low threat density decks like Hawk control it's just better to run a self sufficient threat than equipment that gets neutralized and out tempoed by spot removal.

Of course I can compare the two. Both decks are strictly UW Landstill. It doesn't matter how they achieve the end-game, once that state is reached, both decks just win with random attackers or Jace. Not to mention that Elspeth also stops aggro decks, just as much as Batterskull.

The reference to the other lists is to exemplify that the deck (UW Landstill), rather than Batterskull, is the reason for its success.

[GGoober]

As a Landstill player for over 3-4 years, I can tell you that Batterskull/Elspeth/Decree/Edragon are ALL viable win conditions. If you don't know what I mean by this, it's basically this: Landstill's main problem has never been the late-game (unless you're playing against something like Spiral Tide/Turbodrazi where they can grind you over and over). Landstill's main weakness has always been the early and mid-game. If Landstill gets to the mid-late game, it will be in a position to win for most part, whether you are using Jace/Elspeth/Decree/Edragon/Batterskull.

I am not sold that SFM is a good fit for such a control deck. I do. however, think that Batterskull could fit in a 'win-condition' for control as Jander pointed out (again pointing out how mana-intensive Batterskull is but in some respect it's less of a problem for control decks since they drag to the late-games anways). Control in Legacy for most parts is surviving till the mid game and having an inevitable engine. To say that SFM/Skull is a lot more efficient and difficult to remove against tribal clearly implies that you have not played Planeswalkers in Landstill protected by countermagic. There's a lot more things that hit artifacts/SFM than Planeswalkers in Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Batterskull is probably one of the better control KC options against merfolk, although less so than Knight, which kills faster and can "block" a creature via Maze even with LoA out. But neither is going to save you against fish without significant backup. Zoo also can't burn out Knight the way they can burn out SFM to strand Batterskull in your hand.

I think Knight remains the best card in the format, but I have significantly more respect for the SFM-Batterskull as a strict upgrade to Angel-Control than trying to play it in an actual creature deck. Batterskull becomes much better in the type of deck that has no business running any other equipment. I don't think Owen's list even needed the SoBM, the second Batterskull just seems better there so you don't have to play around Pridemage with the first.

[conboy31]

I was trying to figure out how important the SoBM was. I think it is primarily a concession to win the Jace war in the control matches.

[SpikeyMikey]

But as Ruckus says, in that shell, Batterskull could just as easily be Mountain Goat. It'd be suboptimal, but you'd still win games. Regardless, I think everything has been said that can be said about this. Bruizar is going to point to the Batterskull that made T8 as proof that the card is good and I'm going to wait 6 months for the card to fall off the face of the Earth when it's not the newest thing on the block and people realize it's bad. I lost a match to it tonight out of Maverick, back to back games, but in either situation, SoLS would've been superior.

[Artowis]

From Chapin's article today:


Is the best creature in Magic white?!

The other New Phyrexia format-changing card for Legacy is Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull)!
Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) is going to revolutionize the format. The ability for Stoneforge Mystic (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Stoneforge+Mystic) to get Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) (not to mention a Sword or a Jitte) completely changes the nature of tons of matchups. For instance, Merfolk (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=Merfolk&test=test&start_date=2011-03-06&end_date=2011-07-31) decks used to have edge over blue decks, and now they gain the excellent Mental Misstep (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Mental+Misstep). Yet, now the threat of Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) singlehandedly slants the matchup in favor of whatever deck uses Stoneforge Mystic (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Stoneforge+Mystic). A turn 3 Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) is very hard for Merfolk (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=Merfolk&test=test&start_date=2011-03-06&end_date=2011-07-31) to try to power through, especially if you can keep Lord of Atlantis (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Lord+of+Atlantis) off the table.

The day before the Grand Prix, Brian Kibler and I were playing some games with him on Junk (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=Junk&test=test&start_date=2011-03-06&end_date=2011-07-31) and me on U/W Stoneblade. After a number of very impressive Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) games, I asked him why he didn't play Stoneforge Mystic (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Stoneforge+Mystic). He remarked that he had tried it and wasn't impressed. I asked if he had tried it with Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull). He agreed that Batterskull (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Batterskull) did appear to change things so radically that he ought to reconsider. He immediately put together a version with it, and in a true sign of the times, at least one of his cuts was a Tarmogoyf (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Tarmogoyf).
Obviously if you want to read the rest, premium and all that mess.

[Koby]

I do concede that Batterskull is an elegant win-con in Landstill, and paired with SFM does provide an avenue for a quick kill for a deck not known for doing so. In the specific deck, it also provides ways to grind out card advantage with Jace by recycling the same equipment via Brainstorm.

However, I dislike that 5/60 cards are necessary to make it work properly. Imagine how tricky some of the mulligan decisions must be when you see multiple SFM and not enough counters or filtering.

[Octopusman]

I really thought that Batterskull was bad but many people ran it in our 15 personish tourney in a competitive meta and after seeing it in action, I'll be picking up my singleton soon.
I was playing dragon stompy and my opponent hard cast it using his mooned lands and beat down for the win. Unbelievable.

[HAVE HEART]

I do concede that Batterskull is an elegant win-con in Landstill, and paired with SFM does provide an avenue for a quick kill for a deck not known for doing so. In the specific deck, it also provides ways to grind out card advantage with Jace by recycling the same equipment via Brainstorm.

However, I dislike that 5/60 cards are necessary to make it work properly. Imagine how tricky some of the mulligan decisions must be when you see multiple SFM and not enough counters or filtering.

Brainstorm + Standstill + Jace, etc. etc.

[bruizar]

In the opening post I mentioned:

1) How it resembles Tarmogoyf
2) How close to Blade Splicer this SFM/Batterskull is
3) How Batterskull allows you to run a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics

It's funny to see that Brian Kibler cut a Tarmogoyf for it
Owen played 2 equipments and 4 Stoneforge Mystics. He played them exactly like an overpowered Blade Splicer at the GP, but it took 3 major tournaments, 16 forum-pages and a top 8 to proof my point.


http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/New_Phyrexia/Batterskull.jpg
Batterskull gives you a tutorable 4/4 lifelink vigilance body for 1W. If Tarmogoyf is good enough for Legacy, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that can

Return itself to hand after it has died, to give you a new 4/4 body
Return itself to hand to destroy bridge from belows
Has synergy with other equipment because of vigilance and lifelink
Provides you with an extra blocker (One with lifelink, so you can actually survive a lot more)


is playable as well.


To which I got:


no, it's 2WW involving passing the turn. It is also situational when you pass the turn (assuming they don't plow your Mystic EOT). In this case if they plowed your Mystic, you would have wished you fetched a Jitte that you can cast/equip much easier. Some will argue that an unsituational 1G 4/5 or 5/6 is still better than a 2WW situational4/4 lifelink vigilance body.

And



Imagine being able to play with a Splicer that reads
1W
1W, Tap: Put into play a 3/3Golem, you may only have 1 Golem in play at the same time. Golems you control get +1/+1, Vigilance, Lifelink and has `3: Return this card to your hand after it has died`



To which Metalworker said:


Why is up with this analogy???? This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even begin to comment. Also, after this analogy, all I gathered is that the reusing of battleskull is entirely dependent on SFM being in play, and having 5 mana open in Legacy?

and


Disagree that SFM is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic.


You guys, are a tough crowd. It certainly convinced me that opening SCD-threads on this forum is useless. I guess when you're not Patrick Chapin, being right doesn't mean anything. Tournament results don´t mean anything and feature matches displaying the strength of Batterskull don´t mean anything. Only when an overwhelming amount of magic pros voice their opinion in favor of Batterskull, will people on this forum embrace the idea of using Batterskull as one of the go-to equipments. I know I´ll be taking the ideas of some people on this forum a lot less serious.


There's this idea that because some pros play Legacy sometimes now, that it's become developed. But it hasn't.


Batterskull seems weak...I mean, you still have cards like Exalted Angel available to you. Hell, Serra Angel used to be the finisher of choice for Weissman-style decks, and that was a 4/4 vigilance flyer for 5 mana. It has been relegated to uncommon status, and used to be a top rare. This should tell you the power level of Batterskull. For my mana, I'd play Exalted Angel.
(FUN FACT: Serra Angel was printed as an uncommon, I would know, since I play since legends and cracked those packs.)


The thing I like about Owen's list is that it doesn't really use Batterskull like an equipment, it uses it like a weird amaglam of Exalted Angel and Eternal Dragon. Batterskull reaches a much higher power level in the late game, and his deck is designed to get to the late game.

I think this strategy is still inferior to just running planeswalkers, manlands and maybe DoJ, but at least it makes sense.

[frolll]

What does a Top8 appearance prove exactly ?

I mean, the damn card was a 1-of in the fifth place deck, and it ran 1 more on the sb. And it didn't win the whole thing.
OTOH the winning list ran Jitte and Sword of Feast and Famine. It also ran a Dispel and a Sylvan Safekeeper. Clearly, these cards are overpowered : he won the GP with 'em ! You cannot imply from a result, no matter how strong it is, to the brokeness of a card. Induction is wrong ; is Hive Mind really that strong of a deck ? Don't think so. And how about that Merfolks list running 3 FoW ? Is this the strongest list ever ?
You gotta keep in mind that those decks are heavily metagamed, and that Batterskull is enjoying a lot of hype, therefore it is played just because. It could have been Decree of Justice, I don't think that would have changed the top8'ing of Owen. Plus, you can actually cycle Decree under your own Standstill.

Anyway, this discussion is moot since at least the first page. Control got a new finisher. BIG FUCKIN DEAL.

[bruizar]

What does a Top8 appearance prove exactly ?
I mean, the damn card was a 1-of in the fifth place deck, and it ran 1 more on the sb. And it didn't win the whole thing.

A 1-off that uses 4 tutors to get it, yes.

How many Progenitus do NO RUG/NO BANT play?
How many copies of Tendrils of Agony do TES/SI/ANT play?

Still, that card defines the strategy of the deck. The number of copies of a card in a deck says very little about the impact or powerlevel. Vintage plays only 1 Yawgmoth's Will, only 1 Ancestral Recall, only 1 Necropotence, only 1 Tinker...

Are you going to say, by that same logic, that these cards have little impact on vintage?

PS: I would love to see you become 5th in a 1200-man tournament.

[Arsenal]

NO + Pro = win the game. Tutors + Tendrils = win the game. Yawgmoth's Will = win the game. Tinker + Colossus = win the game. SFM + Batterskull = does not win the game.

This is the umpteenth time I've seen you try to compare SFM + Batterskull to insanely powerful combos and cards, which is just rediculous. Many posters before me have pointed this very fact out numerous times, yet you keep on making the comparison as that's really you're only crutch to lean on.

[nwong]

...

It's funny how you seem to think that someone top8ing with it as a 1-of in their list somehow proves you were right.

The only thing that tournament has proven is that SFM-Batterskull can function as a finisher for a control deck. Big deal. Meet Jace, Elspeth, Decree of Justice and friends, who do the same job better.

Judging from what you quoted from your own post, you never even foresaw that it would be used like this - you seemed to think it would fit into the toolbox of existing SFM Aggro decks.

You were presented with reasonable arguments that it wouldn't add anything to the existing equip package, yet you ignore these arguments and keep making the same dumb comparisons to NO and Tendrils.

Batterskull is a niche card. Hopefully we've established that. That's what it was used for in the tourney (which everyone seems to be basing this hype on) and that's how it will be used in the future. Because it's not good enough to be anything more.

[bruizar]

I don't care if its 1/1 or 100/100, its tactic is similar, you know?

TACTIC
( used with a singular verb ) any mode of procedure for gaining advantage or success.

4 Natural Order - used to search for and cheat into play game winning creature
1 Progenitus - creature that is supposed to carry the game

4 Stoneforge Mystic - used to search for and cheat into play game winning equipment
1 Batterskull - equipment that is supposed to carry the game

Don't give me this "But Progenitus wins in 2 turns" nonsense. I've seen Progenitus get raced plenty of times, both by combo and by aggro, and it's also soft to Edicts and a whole lot of other hate.

The tactic is similar but the role is different. If you don't see the similarity, you're just really bad at Magic and fail to understand it at a conceptual level.




NO + Pro = win the game. Tutors + Tendrils = win the game. Yawgmoth's Will = win the game. Tinker + Colossus = win the game. SFM + Batterskull = does not win the game.

Natural Order + Progenitus - Keep creatures off the board, Diabolic Edict, Tariff, Nature's Ruin, Ensnaring Bridge / Moat / Humiliity, or just win yourself with the 2 turns you have left

Tutor + Tendrils - Mindbreak Trap, Chant, Stifle, Ethersworn Canonist, countering the right ritual

Tinker + Colossus - Phyrexian Metamorph, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Jace, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyll´s Recall, Rebuild, Goblin Welder, or just win yourself

Yawgmoth´s Will - Too varied, could be demonic tutor into vault key, tinker into BSC + Time Walk, could be to generate more storm, could be merely for card advantage. This is probably the closest card to 'you win the game'


Point is, there are answers to everything. If there isn't a proper answer to 1 clearly superior strategy, cards will get banned.



Judging from what you quoted from your own post, you never even foresaw that it would be used like this - you seemed to think it would fit into the toolbox of existing SFM Aggro decks.

Judging from what exactly do you make this up? Unlike the majority of people, of whom I'm sure you're a part, I had playtested Batterskull+SFM and knew it was good. So good in fact, that I was surprised that there wasn't a discussion on the card. I tried it in a caw-blade port with Hawks/Brainstorm, which is why I referred to SFM elsewhere as a Squadron Hawk that doesn't get a 1/1 flyer but a vigilance lifelink Tarmogoyf. Blade Splicer is more accurate like I mentioned in the OP.

I got the idea to port caw-blade from this thread. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20843-Article-Eternal-Europe-Something-for-Standard-and-Hawkcestraling-in-Legacy

[Rune]

The only thing that tournament has proven is that SFM-Batterskull can function as a finisher for a control deck. Big deal. Meet Jace, Elspeth, Decree of Justice and friends, who do the same job better.


That's incorrect. Batterskull is more than just a lategame finisher that's virtually immune to creature removal (if the game goes long), it's also a good anti-aggro card that stabilizes the board early in the game in a similar fashion to how Tarmogoyf has worked in blue decks for a long time up until this point. With MM out, blue decks are now able to consistently cheat out a 4/4 lifelink blocker on turn 3 and effectively shut down aggro, while potentially getting to bash them at the same time for extra value. Many people in this thread still don't seem to comprehend this simple fact, and instead keep comparing it to other equipment that sucks hard when you're under heavy attack...

Anyway, I see 4 Batterskull decks in the top 32, and I have no idea what most of those people played, so there could very well be double that number. All the pros are unanimously saying that Batterskull+SFM in Legacy = Jesus reincarnated. I think they are perhaps a bit too excited, but the card has been proven to be very strong, and trying to prove that the card is bad almost seems comical at this point. However, admitting being wrong is very unmanly, so I understand why IBA and friends are still trying to win this internet argument ! =D

[Arsenal]

I don't think it's bad per se, but when you get people comparing it to Yawgmoth's Will, I actually can't take anything you say after that seriously.

[Eksem]

I was skeptical of the Legacy playability of this card, but a lot of players that I respect told me it was good so I tried it out in a tournament yesterday and I was pleasantly surprised. I feel the best part of it is that it makes Stoneforge Mystic better, pushing SFM to a point where the flexibility, card economy and power of that card makes it into a top player in the format.

I would however not view it as a NO+Prog or S&T+Emrakul-equivalent. It does not have the awesome power of these cards, but it does not have the drawbacks either. 5 mana of any color in a 22 land 4-8 cantrip-list is easy to reach even if you don't cheat it into play. When you NO into Prog, you usually have to use 3 cards to get your big guy, and S&T into Emrakul uses 2 cards and gives your opponent mana, but the SFM+Batterskull actually makes you go plus 1 card.

It's not amazing, but it makes Stoneforge Mystic a little bit more amazing, and it's probably worth running, and in some meta games it's probably a given. At least that's how I feel about it now.

[bruizar]

I don't think it's bad per se, but when you get people comparing it to Yawgmoth's Will, I actually can't take anything you say after that seriously.

It was a direct response to Froll, who implied that running a singleton in a deck doesn't have a big impact. Yawgmoth's Will doesn't agree with that. Actually, the entire Vintage format doesn't agree with that.

[SpikeyMikey]

You guys, are a tough crowd. It certainly convinced me that opening SCD-threads on this forum is useless.

*clap*

[nwong]

I don't care if its 1/1 or 100/100, its tactic is similar, you know?

TACTIC
( used with a singular verb ) any mode of procedure for gaining advantage or success.

4 Natural Order - used to search for and cheat into play game winning creature
1 Progenitus - creature that is supposed to carry the game

4 Stoneforge Mystic - used to search for and cheat into play game winning equipment
1 Batterskull - equipment that is supposed to carry the game

Don't give me this "But Progenitus wins in 2 turns" nonsense. I've seen Progenitus get raced plenty of times, both by combo and by aggro, and it's also soft to Edicts and a whole lot of other hate.

The tactic is similar but the role is different. If you don't see the similarity, you're just really bad at Magic and fail to understand it at a conceptual level.

So by your definition, a Tarmogoyf is supposed to carry the game in some decks. Hence Tarmogoyf is equivalent to NO into Progenitus too?

It's interesting that you mention the fact that Progenitus can be raced, but don't seem to understand that Batterskull can too.

You also mention Progenitus being soft to edicts and other hate (ie Perish or something like it). But once NO resolves, you are guaranteed to win unless they have the answer (or can race).

With Batterskull, you resolve your Mystic, and IF IT SURVIVES TILL YOU UNTAP, you get to cheat in Batterskull. Then it can be answered by any creature/artifact removal (yes you can recur but you'd need 3 to return, and 5 mana to replay unless you have SFM).

Yes, as you said, there are answers to everything. But why are you still trying to compare it to Progenitus? Even if you argue that both Batterskull and Progenitus are game enders in terms of their role in the deck, the fact remains that Progenitus has far fewer answers, and does the job better usually. To emphasize the point, think of how many times people scooped to a resolved NO into Progenitus. Now try to imagine anyone scooping to Mystic cheating in Batterskull. It's obvious they're worlds apart. For someone who is accusing others of being bad at Magic, I find it amazing that you can't seem to understand this.

Judging from what exactly do you make this up? Unlike the majority of people, of whom I'm sure you're a part, I had playtested Batterskull+SFM and knew it was good. So good in fact, that I was surprised that there wasn't a discussion on the card. I tried it in a caw-blade port with Hawks/Brainstorm, which is why I referred to SFM elsewhere as a Squadron Hawk that doesn't get a 1/1 flyer but a vigilance lifelink Tarmogoyf. Blade Splicer is more accurate like I mentioned in the OP.

Firstly, nothing was made up. Judging from the fact that you were comparing it to Jitte and the Swords, I'd say it's fair to assume we're talking about a deck that runs a decent amount of creatures, since you know, those are the decks that run jitte/Swords. If anything was made up, it's your accusation that I haven't tested Batterskull.

Finally, you seem to be rather fond of making personal attacks. No amount of insults is going to decide any argument.



@kikoo: Okay. So it's a late game finisher/stabilizer. Doesn't change the fact that the only decks which are going to be able to abuse the recursion are control decks. Control decks have access to Jace and Elspeth which do this job already, and do it better.

[Jak]

NO + Pro = win the game. Tutors + Tendrils = win the game. Yawgmoth's Will = win the game. Tinker + Colossus = win the game. SFM + Batterskull = does not win the game.

This is the umpteenth time I've seen you try to compare SFM + Batterskull to insanely powerful combos and cards, which is just rediculous. Many posters before me have pointed this very fact out numerous times, yet you keep on making the comparison as that's really you're only crutch to lean on.

Uh actually, he wasn't comparing them at all. He was teaching the idiots who keep thinking that because it is run as a one-of, it somehow means the card is bad or less good than four-ofs. Those are examples... So chill out and try to comprehend what he is saying before you rant.

BTW, the card is meant to be a one-of. Without SFM, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so again, it's a stupid reason to discredit a card.

Also, I would love to hear how you came to your "win the game" conclusions. Did you base it off anything? Or did you, most likely, just throw out some crap to make your post look more informative?


Finally, people are starting to appreciate the late game strength of Batterskull. The cost of five is not a problem if the deck packs enough land and it is one of the hardest to remove threats in the game of Magic. Now, I hope people appreciate the early game strength of it. SFM grabs it, and if it can live a turn, you can spit out a turn 3 Batterskull and just crush aggro. It's one of the best aggro stoppers I have seen in a while, gaining life while both playing offense AND defense.

Can people now see the strength of it? It comes down early, unless your opponent can remove the SFM before the next turn, but then it busts out late game to win the long game as a resilient threat. As good as the Swords and Jitte are, they can't take over the game like Batterskull can. You don't need to build the deck around it to make it effective, just put it alongside 4 SFM and a solid manabase to hit land drops.

[nwong]

It's hard to remove aside from Krosan Grip. The problem is, Grips are pretty common sideboard material, and chances are, you only have 1 Batterskull.

Also, given that you're in a control shell, we shouldn't be comparing it to Swords or Jitte since they fit in aggro decks.

Unless you build a new deck that has a control deck's manabase, few creatures, yet plans to win by aggro, it's far more productive to compare it to Elspeth or Jace.

[Jak]

It's hard to remove aside from Krosan Grip. The problem is, Grips are pretty common sideboard material, and chances are, you only have 1 Batterskull.

So a 2-of or 3-of in the SB of some green decks can destroy your one-of that you can tutor up. I think it's okay to have some sort of Kryptonite.


Also, given that you're in a control shell, we shouldn't be comparing it to Swords or Jitte since they fit in aggro decks.

I'm actually in my house, and have no idea what you are talking about. Since when did I go in this "control shell"? And I didn't compare them, or wasn't trying to. I was just pointing out why Batterskull should be alongside them because it can single handedly take the game over. It changes and affects the game in different ways that a Jitte or Sword would.


Unless you build a new deck that has a control deck's manabase, few creatures, yet plans to win by aggro...

You should really check out some Legacy decklists.


...it's far more productive to compare it to Elspeth or Jace.

It actually isn't productive at all. Why would you ever compare Jace to Batterskull?

[nwong]

If i'm not mistaken, the list that top 8ed with Batterskull was a Landstill shell.

Also, I'm assuming that you need a control shell since that's where it would shine. If you have lots of creatures, Jitte and Swords are better than Batterskull. Given that you also need 5 mana to be able to use the recursion, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that we're in a control shell.

As for the decklists you mention, I think you're referring to Caw-Blade ports? Caw Blade could definitely use Batterskull over Jitte and Swords.

However, given that you're in a control deck, and Batterskull is your stabilizer/finisher, why wouldn't it be productive to compare it to Jace/Elspeth? They serve the same purpose.

[menace13]

It was a direct response to Froll, who implied that running a singleton in a deck doesn't have a big impact. Yawgmoth's Will doesn't agree with that. Actually, the entire Vintage format doesn't agree with that.
So what if the restricted cards don't "agree". They have like a million tutors legal in Vintage and restricted instants/sorceries are much easier to find when I want them. Every deck that plays Will and Tinker has Vamp, Demonic and Mystical at the least.

Batterskull is good, but It doesnt beat Jitte in combat with even a 1/1 holding it. It will not beat a KoTR, Goyf, Stalker like Jitte can.

[Jak]

If i'm not mistaken, the list that top 8ed with Batterskull was a Landstill shell.

You aren't mistaken... yet...


Also, I'm assuming that you need a control shell since that's where it would shine. If you have lots of creatures, Jitte and Swords are better than Batterskull. Given that you also need 5 mana to be able to use the recursion, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that we're in a control shell.

Five mana isn't this unattainable thing in Legacy. It actually happens quite often. First of all, it can still be cheated into play early. Turns 7-10 hit and you can easily start protecting and recasting it. There are other decks playing Batterskull other than the one Landstill-ish one that Top 8ed and it can easily be run in an aggro-control deck a la Bant or Junk.


As for the decklists you mention, I think you're referring to Caw-Blade ports? Caw Blade could definitely use Batterskull over Jitte and Swords.

Nope. Just trying to poke fun at you not knowing Aggro-Control archetypes existed in the format.


However, given that you're in a control deck, and Batterskull is your stabilizer/finisher, why wouldn't it be productive to compare it to Jace/Elspeth? They serve the same purpose.

Again, I am not talking about a specific deck, but I'll respond to this anyway. You can't compare them just because they can be classed under broad terms. They aren't competing for spots, they stabilize the game differently, and both win the game differently. It's like trying to compare a one of Trinket Mage target in Engineered Explosives to Swords to Plowshares. They both "stabilize the game" but are run in the deck for very different reasons.


Batterskull is good, but It doesnt beat Jitte in combat with even a 1/1 holding it. It will not beat a KoTR, Goyf, Stalker like Jitte can.

So then get Jitte... This isn't that hard.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In the opening post I mentioned:

1) How it resembles Tarmogoyf
2) How close to Blade Splicer this SFM/Batterskull is
3) How Batterskull allows you to run a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics

It's funny to see that Brian Kibler cut a Tarmogoyf for it
Owen played 2 equipments and 4 Stoneforge Mystics. He played them exactly like an overpowered Blade Splicer at the GP, but it took 3 major tournaments, 16 forum-pages and a top 8 to proof my point.

In your opening post you explicitly talked about running Batterskull along other Swords and how good it was with other equipment. It's not. The SFM-Batterskull plan only really makes sense in a deck where that's the kill condition, basically as Exalted Angel v 2.0. This precludes a good reason to run other equipment.

Also, @Jak, to say that kill conditions in Landstill aren't comparable is silly.

Also to say that Batterskull is good against aggro in such a shell is insane. It's good against Merfolk because they tend not to pack creature removal and you can try to stabilize against a small board, although they can still easily race and/or pump their guys bigger. But Zoo has, on the averages, something like twenty ways to either kill SFM and strand Batterskull in your hand, or to kill the Germ/equipment itself. And it's not going to give you lots of opportunity to play around removal.

I still say that Knight is a better win condition in Landstill since it's very hard to burn out, packs incredible utility and size, and can block merfolk through LoA via Maze (or just saccing all your Trops and Tundras).

[Einherjer]

I tested Batterskull alongside 4 SFM in my Deadguy list and it was actually VERY nice - and yes i can only support people saying Batterskull is great for all aggro-control or control-aggros

Greetings

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's incorrect. Batterskull is more than just a lategame finisher that's virtually immune to creature removal (if the game goes long), it's also a good anti-aggro card that stabilizes the board early in the game in a similar fashion to how Tarmogoyf has worked in blue decks for a long time up until this point. With MM out, blue decks are now able to consistently cheat out a 4/4 lifelink blocker on turn 3 and effectively shut down aggro, while potentially getting to bash them at the same time for extra value. Many people in this thread still don't seem to comprehend this simple fact, and instead keep comparing it to other equipment that sucks hard when you're under heavy attack...

Anyway, I see 4 Batterskull decks in the top 32, and I have no idea what most of those people played, so there could very well be double that number. All the pros are unanimously saying that Batterskull+SFM in Legacy = Jesus reincarnated. I think they are perhaps a bit too excited, but the card has been proven to be very strong, and trying to prove that the card is bad almost seems comical at this point. However, admitting being wrong is very unmanly, so I understand why IBA and friends are still trying to win this internet argument ! =D

There's a huge functional difference between that list and what people anticipated; the proponents itt having argued that Batterskull went along the standard SFM package, whereas Turtenwald's list was actually just built around SFM-Batterskull as nearly a solo kill condition.

Pros hype things. Cards become popular and then fall off the face of the Earth. Hell, a year ago people were hyping See Beyond.

The SFM+Batterskull hype is also splashover primarily because these are clearly really great cards in Standard and Extended. People aren't hyping the combo in Legacy explicitly, they're hyping it in general and thinking it splashes over to Legacy.

For reference, there were exactly as many decks in the top 8 of GP Madrid running Rhox War Monk as GP Providence running SFM (2), exactly as many decks running Sower of Temptation at GP Chicago, exactly as many decks running Order of the Ebon Hand (!!!) at the first GP Columbus. That's twice the number that actually ran Batterskull, which puts it on par, based on previous GPs, with such format staples as Mesmeric Fiend, Gathan Raiders, Rafiq of the Many, and Figure of Destiny.

Welcome to this game called Magic: The Gathering, where one tournament isn't empirical proof of anything, even if Batterskull had overperformed (which it hasn't). Now please stop making the exact same inane arguments.

[GGoober]

Wow, Bruizar, you're quite narrow minded aren't you?

Let me point this straight to you. I was mostly 'angered' and trolling you because your analogies are worse than what a middle school kid could do when taking the SAT analogies section.

Stop comparing Batterskull to your series of Splicers/NO/Tinker/Goyf/Jitte. If you had taken a step back and simply focused on the argument itself rather than thinking that Batterskull is akin to the cards you mentioned, you would have bought me earlier.

Granted, I'm not a highly stubborn person, I will agree that I used to think Batterskull was Junk (this is my mistake), and I will eventually be convinced in the future to test them out in control shells, as BoM/SCG/GP has proven.

Also, by the way, I stand by the fact that a combination of 5/60 cards with 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull is horrid in Landstill. If I wanted to play Batterskull in Landstill as a 'Pulse of the Field' effect and win-condition in one card that is resilient and recurrable with Academy Ruins (this is the true beauty of batterskull in Landstill, see I'm being more open minded to the card now), I would play it with a 2 ETutor + 1 Batterskull out of my 3/60. This way, I don't draw fucking worthless 1/2 Squires that do nothing to get 1 Batterskull out and proceed to draw bad cards. At least my ETutors will be grabbing EE/Standstills/Moat/Tops etc. Also the 5 mana to hardcast living equipment and 3 mana EOT into 5 mana hard cast again is less relevant in a control deck that is mainly using this card to stablize as a Pulse of the Field effect.

Polish up on your analogies, and you didn't sell me on Batterskull, the thread and GP results did. But thanks for the SCD thread, we really needed this one, but don't think you're the one getting credit for pushing the card to popularity because your analogies are so so bad....

[Einherjer]

Hmm there ones thing that angered me since long.... its this stubborness of so many magicplayers - not that I am thaaat pro - but im no noob either.

The problem is, that sooo many people are one opinion: That there is a so called "better" or "best" card - no there is not - definitely not.

Same thing with batterskull - just read the text, if you like it, play it, if you dont, dont.

No1 forces you to play it! Neither some Winners at some tournaments nor some forums.

No1 forces you not to play it! Neither some looses at some tournaments nor some forums.

Thats what I think, just make your own opinion in testing it, and if you like it, just play it, and if not, DONT.

So thats what i think.

Greetings


PS: And yes I like playing Batterskull.

+ PLEASE COME BACK TO THE TOPIC, NOT TO THIS STUBBORN ARGUMENT!!!

[Arsenal]

Uh actually, he wasn't comparing them at all. He was teaching the idiots who keep thinking that because it is run as a one-of, it somehow means the card is bad or less good than four-ofs. Those are examples... So chill out and try to comprehend what he is saying before you rant.

BTW, the card is meant to be a one-of. Without SFM, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so again, it's a stupid reason to discredit a card.

Also, I would love to hear how you came to your "win the game" conclusions. Did you base it off anything? Or did you, most likely, just throw out some crap to make your post look more informative?


Finally, people are starting to appreciate the late game strength of Batterskull. The cost of five is not a problem if the deck packs enough land and it is one of the hardest to remove threats in the game of Magic. Now, I hope people appreciate the early game strength of it. SFM grabs it, and if it can live a turn, you can spit out a turn 3 Batterskull and just crush aggro. It's one of the best aggro stoppers I have seen in a while, gaining life while both playing offense AND defense.

Can people now see the strength of it? It comes down early, unless your opponent can remove the SFM before the next turn, but then it busts out late game to win the long game as a resilient threat. As good as the Swords and Jitte are, they can't take over the game like Batterskull can. You don't need to build the deck around it to make it effective, just put it alongside 4 SFM and a solid manabase to hit land drops.

Like I've posted in here already, I honestly don't think Batterskull is a bad card and I think it's playable, but the reasons I've seen as to why it's playable are just laughably bad and people need to be corrected.

He was comparing them in the sense that a singleton Batterskull is justified due to singleton Yawgmoth's Will, singleton Tinker, etc being played, yet he completely ignores the fact that the power levels of said singletons are not even comparable... yet he keeps on making comparisons to somehow bolster Batterskull's playability.

Also, I'm unclear as to what you mean by "win the game" conclusions; do you suggest that resolving a Yawgmoth's Will the vast majority of the time does not win the game? What do you mean "did I base it off anything"? I'm unclear as to what you're implying; do you mean that resolving these cards are somehow completely unrelated to winning the game?

[Nessaja]

You guys are beating a dead horse, you guys aren't even disagreeing with eachother, merely trying to save face so you just weren't wrong.

1. Batterskull has proven to be a card that is good enough for legacy (contrary to what many people thought)
2. Batterskull is not as gamewinning as other similar 1 offs
3. Then again it only requires the addition of one card and can be put in decks already playing the other combo components (SFM), compare to NO which requires 5 new cards
4. There might be an over-influx of Batterskull currently but that doesn't make it better, or worse, nor is it anything out of the ordinary

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You guys are beating a dead horse, you guys aren't even disagreeing with eachother, merely trying to save face so you just weren't wrong.

1. Batterskull has proven to be a card that is good enough for legacy (contrary to what many people thought)
2. Batterskull is not as gamewinning as other similar 1 offs
3. Then again it only requires the addition of one card and can be put in decks already playing the other combo components (SFM), compare to NO which requires 5 new cards
4. There might be an over-influx of Batterskull currently but that doesn't make it better, or worse, nor is it anything out of the ordinary

Except the list that actually top 8'd didn't "only require the addition of one card", it was completely different from other lists running SFM. It was actually built around the card. Your conclusion demonstrates a lack of actually paying attention to what happened.

Exalted Angel control is the best comparison to Turtenwald's list. That top 8'd at Lille. But people ultimately dropped the card because it was too fragile. SFM for Batterskull fills the same function and is somewhat less fragile, but still too vulnerable to survive against people that know your list and know how light you are on actual kill conditions, I think.

I mean people also played Baneslayer Angel when it came out in Legacy. That was hyped. That won some games. But it ultimately got dropped as less than optimal. That's the fate of lots of cards in Legacy; playable but sub-optimal. I mean Call of the Herd, Watchwolf, and Ranger of Eos could all be played in Zoo. None would be terrible. But none would be optimal or correct either.

Like, people like to bring up Coralhelm as a card that some people dismissed and became a staple in Merfolk. But people also played Wake Thrasher and Cosi's Trickster- and to winning or high performances, including at several SCG Opens- while hyping those cards, but both ultimately got dropped.

Nothing is more prone to error than saying, "This new card for a deck just top 8'd a bit tournament, clearly this is the optimal choice and will be part of this deck forever." We already ran into this twice with SoBM and SoFF for God's sake.

[Einherjer]

Even though you guys just did ignore my post...
... Ill just join this stupid argument

Yes you are right Mr. Assasin, batterskull has no right to be a top 1 card, a game winning card - but on the other hand it doesnt have no right to be played.
It is good, pretty good in some decks actually - and if YOU think about it, actually what do YOU care if OTHERS play it? You can still say "I wouldnt do that" but not "This is *****" Got me?

You guys here are kinda brutal to new ideas, everythings getting said bad and not playable, without even testing....

Greetings

[DragoFireheart]

Just because a card or a deck see's the top 8 != it being a good card or deck. Sometimes, jank decks are good in meta divoid of certain decks (ex: Affinity in a meta not expecting artifacts or packing artifact hate).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Even though you guys just did ignore my post...
... Ill just join this stupid argument

Yes you are right Mr. Assasin, batterskull has no right to be a top 1 card, a game winning card - but on the other hand it doesnt have no right to be played.
It is good, pretty good in some decks actually - and if YOU think about it, actually what do YOU care if OTHERS play it? You can still say "I wouldnt do that" but not "This is *****" Got me?

You guys here are kinda brutal to new ideas, everythings getting said bad and not playable, without even testing....

Greetings


I am sorry if my posts have been less than cordial, and to anypony they offended.

[Nessaja]

Except the list that actually top 8'd didn't "only require the addition of one card", it was completely different from other lists running SFM. It was actually built around the card. Your conclusion demonstrates a lack of actually paying attention to what happened.
I'm not even talking about the top 8, I'm talking about the many feature matches in which Batterskull saw play and proved a valid addition. If the only decks worth analyzing are the top 8 decks then there are a ton of deck inviable in the current meta.

Batterskull is a lot further right now then Baneslayer ever was, even though there probably was more hype around Baneslayer then around Batterskull. It's certainly not jank and it certainly can win games. If it's the most optimal choice in every deck we can't even know in a year (because people might be playing suboptimal decks), we don't even know if Force of Will is a optimal card in many decks - strictly speaking. All we can say when evaluating a card is that it's on the right powerlevel and Batterskull certainly is in that area.

[troopatroop]

Granted, I'm not a highly stubborn person, I will agree that I used to think Batterskull was Junk (this is my mistake), and I will eventually be convinced in the future to test them out in control shells, as BoM/SCG/GP has proven.

Also, by the way, I stand by the fact that a combination of 5/60 cards with 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull is horrid in Landstill. If I wanted to play Batterskull in Landstill as a 'Pulse of the Field' effect and win-condition in one card that is resilient and recurrable with Academy Ruins (this is the true beauty of batterskull in Landstill, see I'm being more open minded to the card now), I would play it with a 2 ETutor + 1 Batterskull out of my 3/60. This way, I don't draw fucking worthless 1/2 Squires that do nothing to get 1 Batterskull out and proceed to draw bad cards. At least my ETutors will be grabbing EE/Standstills/Moat/Tops etc.

You seem to be ignoring that SFM makes Batterskull cost 2. That's better than 5 mana and losing a card. This post makes you sound like a BK.

[Jak]

Like I've posted in here already, I honestly don't think Batterskull is a bad card and I think it's playable, but the reasons I've seen as to why it's playable are just laughably bad and people need to be corrected.

And the only reasons I have heard for NOT running it, is that Jitte and Sword are better and that it costs too much mana when your SFM gets removed or if you have to cast it. Did I miss any?


He was comparing them in the sense that a singleton Batterskull is justified due to singleton Yawgmoth's Will, singleton Tinker, etc being played, yet he completely ignores the fact that the power levels of said singletons are not even comparable... yet he keeps on making comparisons to somehow bolster Batterskull's playability.

Where did you get that? Maybe I missed it. All I read were some posts like this:



I mean, the damn card was a 1-of in the fifth place deck, and it ran 1 more on the sb. And it didn't win the whole thing.

Bringing up that it is a one-of is pointless. 97.34% of the decks running SFM are only running 1 Batterskull, so everyone knows. Bringing up that it's a one-of to somehow discredit it is just stupid. Bruizar brought up NO + Pro, which is a great example.



Also, I'm unclear as to what you mean by "win the game" conclusions; do you suggest that resolving a Yawgmoth's Will the vast majority of the time does not win the game? What do you mean "did I base it off anything"? I'm unclear as to what you're implying; do you mean that resolving these cards are somehow completely unrelated to winning the game?

What game does it win? How does NO + Pro "win the game" but yet SFM + Batterskull somehow doesn't? Did you draw the line at three turns to win or something? Seems retarded and irrelevant to even bring up or say something like that.

[Gheizen64]

Wow, Bruizar, you're quite narrow minded aren't you?

Let me point this straight to you. I was mostly 'angered' and trolling you because your analogies are worse than what a middle school kid could do when taking the SAT analogies section.

Stop comparing Batterskull to your series of Splicers/NO/Tinker/Goyf/Jitte. If you had taken a step back and simply focused on the argument itself rather than thinking that Batterskull is akin to the cards you mentioned, you would have bought me earlier.

Granted, I'm not a highly stubborn person, I will agree that I used to think Batterskull was Junk (this is my mistake), and I will eventually be convinced in the future to test them out in control shells, as BoM/SCG/GP has proven.

Also, by the way, I stand by the fact that a combination of 5/60 cards with 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull is horrid in Landstill. If I wanted to play Batterskull in Landstill as a 'Pulse of the Field' effect and win-condition in one card that is resilient and recurrable with Academy Ruins (this is the true beauty of batterskull in Landstill, see I'm being more open minded to the card now), I would play it with a 2 ETutor + 1 Batterskull out of my 3/60. This way, I don't draw fucking worthless 1/2 Squires that do nothing to get 1 Batterskull out and proceed to draw bad cards. At least my ETutors will be grabbing EE/Standstills/Moat/Tops etc. Also the 5 mana to hardcast living equipment and 3 mana EOT into 5 mana hard cast again is less relevant in a control deck that is mainly using this card to stablize as a Pulse of the Field effect.

Polish up on your analogies, and you didn't sell me on Batterskull, the thread and GP results did. But thanks for the SCD thread, we really needed this one, but don't think you're the one getting credit for pushing the card to popularity because your analogies are so so bad....

Running SFM is the point. Dodge Landstill + tutor with no card disadvantage, also make it faster and give bounce + recast possibilities.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

SFM for Baneslayer is a much less powerful play than a host of E-Tutor targets; I don't think the comparison is apt.


I'm not even talking about the top 8, I'm talking about the many feature matches in which Batterskull saw play and proved a valid addition. If the only decks worth analyzing are the top 8 decks then there are a ton of deck inviable in the current meta.

Batterskull is a lot further right now then Baneslayer ever was, even though there probably was more hype around Baneslayer then around Batterskull. It's certainly not jank and it certainly can win games. If it's the most optimal choice in every deck we can't even know in a year (because people might be playing suboptimal decks), we don't even know if Force of Will is a optimal card in many decks - strictly speaking. All we can say when evaluating a card is that it's on the right powerlevel and Batterskull certainly is in that area.

I never saw a time where the decks running actual creatures wouldn't have rather had a Jitte or SoFI or SoLS, depending on the situation.

If you run creatures I think it's clearly incorrect to run Batterskull. The only real argument for it is in a creature light control deck where it's your Exalted Angel.

[SpikeyMikey]

SFM for Baneslayer is a much less powerful play than a host of E-Tutor targets; I don't think the comparison is apt.



I never saw a time where the decks running actual creatures wouldn't have rather had a Jitte or SoFI or SoLS, depending on the situation.

If you run creatures I think it's clearly incorrect to run Batterskull. The only real argument for it is in a creature light control deck where it's your Exalted Angel.

Even there, I think DoJ is a better card as it operates better under Standstill, although SFM does force them to consider leaving in spot removal against you post board (which could otherwise be boarded out against Landstill in favor of more anti-control measures).

I have lost to a Batterskull now, it was bound to happen eventually, but I still say the card is simply suboptimal in any Legacy decklist.

[GGoober]

Running SFM is the point. Dodge Landstill + tutor with no card disadvantage, also make it faster and give bounce + recast possibilities.

Point taken, but there is a host of problems with SFM+Batterskull in a control list. Maybe the pros already considered it and would prefer the speed and mana efficiency of SFM+Batterskull, but I think time will tell. My impression that Batterskull will fit nicely in the role of a resilient win-condition+stabilizer (resilient for decks playing ETutor/Academy Ruins). This will ultimately not be played with SFM in CONTROL lists. having 5/60 slots in the maindeck to tutor primarily for Batterskull and 'cheat' it in isn't worth the slots. The card/strategy has been a new one and I will think that time will tell if people see 5/60 slots to be worth it. I maybe wrong, but I'm calling that Batterskull will see some niche play in control lists. In fact, I'm tempted to play it in a deck with 2-4 ETutors. It's a much stronger Pulse of the Field 'effect' that happens to be a resilient win-condition that is hard to deal with in the mid-late game.

In a control deck like Landstill, 'fast' is a blessing, but is often not the most important factor. I mean most people have stopped swinging with Factories early game (unless you have a Standstill or tons of mana open) to avoid turning up opponent's removal and losing a land because you want to win 'faster'. I feel that dedicating just 3/60 slots with ETutor/Batterskull configuration makes much more sense in a control list, especially when you are using ETutor to first primarily tutor up true bombs e.g. Moat/Humility etc. Batterskull is a win-condition, just like any other viable powerful win-conditions in control. When you get to the mid/late game, any win condition is powerful in a control deck, not just Batterskull, but I'll grant you, I've been missing Pulse of the Fields lately since I stopped playing Wishbuilds (probably a mistake) but Batterskull could be a very nice slot for a control list not packing Wishes.

My main point is: A performing list is in every way subject to refinement and change. I maybe wrong to say that Landstill should play 4 SFM + 1 Batterskull, but I don't think that I'm wrong in saying that control lists that reach the mid-late game with tons of mana open can play Batterskull without SFM, in fact, I argue that it's better to play it without SFM, since you are wasting 5 precious slots in the MD to get a 'Pulse of the Fields' effect (which does win games since Pulse is amazing at stabilizing) but 5 slots is fucking 5 slots.

[TsumiBand]

It sort of seems like a lot of people are managing to forget that Batterskull can bounce itself, meaning traditional creature/equipment removal is ass against it, especially if you have either (a) the mana to bounce and cast it again right away (b) the mana to bounce and SFM it again. Unless you're into that Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox bullshit it means we're talking about mid- to late-game shenanigans, but it's worth pointing out that the only really good answer for completely killing a Batterskull (that I can think of) is a Krosan Grip. I guess maybe Pithing Needle too, in an indirect way, but that implies drawing Needle + Disenchant effect. So yeah, from this point of view, I can see how a deck which is made to get to, and shine in, the mid or late-game would love to roll with a 4/4 lifelinker that mostly only dies to Krosan Grip. Theoretically speaking, Deadguy has a new date for the prom.

I wasn't going to immediately jump on the Batterskull wagon; I'm still not. But I value opinions of good players, and I value Stoneforge Mystic as a relevant card in Legacy, I don't care whether it's "Top 5" or "Top 25" or whatever insipid ranking system one wants to use to try and describe its standing among other guys. The actual metagame is generally more relevant than the theorycrafting surrounding it.

[iPhael]

6 out of my first 6 games at GP Providence consisted of a turn 2 Stoneforge into Batterskull, if that means anything to anyone. Needless to say, my zombies had quite the uphill battle ahead of them.

This card is the real deal, and it was f**king everywhere. Be prepared for it or get blown out, your call.

[Einherjer]

I mostly, if non playing vs Aggro, prefer getting batterskull at my second SFM or if i got 1 SFM + 1 equip at hand.

[Eksem]

I have now played Batterskull in several tournaments (30+ people, mix between known and unknown metas) and I have to upgrade my opinion on the card a lot (from already pleasantly surprised). It is, to be honest, extremly powerful. Together with cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Mental Misstep and Jace, TMS it invalidates a large portion of the known strategies in the format, and handles the rest if played reasonably well. Other strategies to counteract this will emerge in short i'm sure*, but right now, Batterskull pushed Stoneforge Mystic to being the perhaps most important card in the format.


* Combo decks that can ignore life totals and doesn't fold to Misstep seem like a good idea... and perhaps with some red spells in there... I wonder how a deck like that might look... ;^)

[DragoFireheart]

I think I'm changing my opinion on it as well. It's slow and is only really good for a more controllish deck, but the fact you can sneak it into play under a standstill is pretty neat. Batterskull is quite bad without the Forge however.

[Anarky87]

My friend, Josh Guibault, Top 8'd the Open once again, this time playing a UW control shell with Mystic/Batterskull. And walking around the through the tables I only mostly saw some mix of Jace/Mystic/Equipment. Seemed really good.

[bakofried]

I did think it was funny how Jim Davis plowed through Batterskulls in the feature match against Flores, though. It's better than I first thought (still not as good as people here claim) but not terribly difficult to beat.

[ivanpei]

IMO it's the spill over effect from standard. If you are comfortable with caw blade in standard, why not play the same in legacy? Mike Flores got his ass handed to him by goblins while playing batterskull. Seriously do you think goblins cares more about a 4/4 lifelinker or an equipment that machine guns dudes?

Batterskull was strong in the control vs control mu's especially in those uw vs uw matchups that are a spillover from standard. I'm glad zoo and goblins took full advantage of slow and clunky uw lists and resulted in an aggro mirror for the finals.

This is not Cawblade standard,

This is LEGACY *cue Leonidas battle cry*

[bakofried]

It was Edgar Flores, actually. He had built this deck while claiming the FoW was now obsolete with MM in the format, and then was whomped on by Tin Street Hooligans and Ringleaders. And Gempalm Incinerators (though this was unrelated to lack of FoW).

Also: I'm bitter about Jim Davis losing. Just a side note.

[CorpT]

IMO it's the spill over effect from standard. If you are comfortable with caw blade in standard, why not play the same in legacy? Mike Flores got his ass handed to him by goblins while playing batterskull. Seriously do you think goblins cares more about a 4/4 lifelinker or an equipment that machine guns dudes?

Batterskull was strong in the control vs control mu's especially in those uw vs uw matchups that are a spillover from standard. I'm glad zoo and goblins took full advantage of slow and clunky uw lists and resulted in an aggro mirror for the finals.

This is not Cawblade standard,

This is LEGACY *cue Leonidas battle cry*

A 4/4 Vigilance Lifelinker that comes online before a Jitte?

Look, everyone can claim that it's just Standard spillover and that Batterskull still isn't good enough, but I think the results are more than clear. Batterskull is seeing play and doing well in both UW Control, BW Weenies and will likely see more play in other decks.

Here's where everyone gets to say:
"But it's only good with Mystic"
"But these are just people playing Standard and can't figure out how to play anything but Batterskull."

Joe Bernal just made $2,000 this weekend playing Batterskull in his deck. How did you do this weekend? Do you think he cares why you think he plays it? Or is he happy to sit on his pile of money while you sit on your plastic throne and tell him it's not real Legacy because he's playing Standard cards.

[GGoober]

My playgroup has had some experiences with Batterskull (both in the GP and from playing). Zoo beats Batterskull since it never connects. Also, Ancient Grudge/Grips are good outs to Batterskull if it becomes too centric in metagames. People have forgotten how good Grips are these days :P

[Tim the Enchanter]

Batterskull was all over the invitational, including my BW list. It beats Merfolk, is good against the other UW lists and is really good against Zoo if it actually lands.

I personally think the card is fucking stupid, but it's too powerful for me not to include.

Funny thing, on the way home I'm thinking to myself "I need to make it UBW because that would be really good and no one would expect it!" I get home and see Edgar Flores list is almost exactly what I had in mind, he just had the forethought to execute BEFORE the tournament. Nice list Edgar.

[plus_ten]

Here's where everyone gets to say:
"But it's only good with Mystic"

Joe Bernal just made $2,000 this weekend playing Batterskull in his deck. How did you do this weekend? Do you think he cares why you think he plays it? Or is he happy to sit on his pile of money while you sit on your plastic throne and tell him it's not real Legacy because he's playing Standard cards.

Do you have to be so harsh to others?

I was not sold on SFM-Batterskull initially, but I am convinced now. Though, the only time Batterskull is actually played is alongside a Mystic. This is not too different from how Vengevine pushed Survival over the top (some really efficient engine to get beaters into play). It's the sum of the parts rather than Batterskull being good on its own.

[PhantomLotus]

No card exists in a vacuum. While there are a number of Legacy cards that are plainly good, there are *many* more that are only good because other cards exist:

Progenitus - bad without cards to cheat him into play (Show and Tell, Hypergenesis, Shelldock Isle, Sneak Attack, ...) (Emrakul is almost the same except that Elves and 12Post can actually hardcast him)

Grindstone - bad without Painter's Servant

And many others. I'm sure we could all come up with a huge list of cards that depend on other cards to be playable in Legacy. Batterskull is just one of those now.

Legacy players just love to hate on anything that smells like Standard. Since SFM->Batterskull is a combo in Standard right now, there's a lot of hate for it here. It will pass. The viability of the combo itself will ebb and flow with time, as the metagame changes.

[bakofried]

Actually, I saw a good bit of whomping on those guys that played Batterskull, kindly brought to you by Aggro.

[Rizso]

It was Edgar Flores, actually. He had built this deck while claiming the FoW was now obsolete with MM in the format, and then was whomped on by Tin Street Hooligans and Ringleaders. And Gempalm Incinerators (though this was unrelated to lack of FoW).

Also: I'm bitter about Jim Davis losing. Just a side note.

He did actually say in his deck. Wich I do aggre with as he had only 14 blue cards and didnt want to cut anything really for FOW. He upted for Mental misstep, daze and chrome mox instead. I really dont like that his list is basicless. But guess he needs it to be able to have island for daze, black mana for Hymn.