[SCD] Batterskull

[bruizar]

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/New_Phyrexia/Batterskull.jpg

I'm surprised there isn't a thread for this card yet. This card is on everyone's radar for Standard, yet no one talks about it for Legacy.

Batterskull is a great card because it makes your Stoneforge Mystics much better than they were. There are plenty of decks that only run 3 SFM's and Batterskull is the best excuse to run the 4th SFM.

The reason why you play with only 3 SFM's is because you never want to see more than 1 Sword per game. The equip cost is just too great and it sucks to have an equipped creature catch creature removal because you just wasted a lot of mana. Now imagine if you have 2 Swords to equip. One of them will most likely be dead. Therefore, the rationale of only running 3 SFM's is solid.

But Batterskull changes this all. Stoneforge Mystic is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic, right now. He is to white, what tarmogoyf is to green. The correct number of Tarmogoyfs, if you play them, is usually 4 and so is the correct number of Stoneforge Mystics. They are just too good not to play. Batterskull improves your second Stoneforge Mystic, because you can now tutor up a body instead of an extra sword.

Batterskull gives you a tutorable 4/4 lifelink vigilance body for 1W. If Tarmogoyf is good enough for Legacy, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that can

Return itself to hand after it has died, to give you a new 4/4 body
Return itself to hand to destroy bridge from belows
Has synergy with other equipment because of vigilance and lifelink
Provides you with an extra blocker (One with lifelink, so you can actually survive a lot more)


is playable as well.

Imagine being able to play with a Splicer that reads
1W
1W, Tap: Put into play a 3/3Golem, you may only have 1 Golem in play at the same time. Golems you control get +1/+1, Vigilance, Lifelink and has `3: Return this card to your hand after it has died`


The critics probably want to tell us that

5 mana is way too much to pay for this card, and that the game is long over by then.
This criticism sucks, don´t believe it. Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker or Natural Order. If Vintage decks can play a 12 mana Blightsteel Colossus, and if Legacy decks can play a 10 mana Progenitus, you can surely play a 5 mana equipment. You don´t plan on casting it, you simply cheat it into play.

But what if they plowshares my Mystic?
First, You can get a Sword first and use your second SFM to get Batterskull, now they have to plowshare 2 SFM´s to make Batterskull useless. Chances are, if he´s plowing 1/2´s he won´t have much removal left for your real threats.

Second, you can clear the way with discard effects

Third, if they don´t answer SFM in 1 turn, they are officially dead. Once Batterskull hits the battlefield, they have a serious problem. They now need 2 plowshares to survive. One for the germ, and another for the SFM.
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My conclusion is that Batterskull greatly improves SFM in multiples. Running Batterskull allows you to get more value out of running a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics, and Stoneforge Mystic is a busted card. I believe this card is like Vengevine. A great standard and legacy card, that only gets love in standard. It takes a while for the legacy community to catch on but it will eventually embrace it.

[DTC]

Hardcasting at 5 as you already brought up is not ideal. In legacy there are significantly better things you should be paying 5 mana for.

The problem with cheating it though lies in legacy and why SFM is not AS good as it is standard, simply put there's many more permanent answers to it and it's just two slow.

Let's figure you play stoneforge by turn 2. You're now tapped out so unless you're running blue or black there's very few free spells you may have for protection and should logically consider running either. Yes, even mental misstep is not a card you should be running unless you're running blue. Your opponent has a whole turn to remove your stoneforge, assuming they didn't already counter it intead.

Turn three if all works out you can tap it to cheat the sword into play, but given the legacy metagame, cheating a 4/4 lifelink vigilence into play on turn 3 isn't as impressive as it might be for standard. By turn 3 a NO deck can have progenitus in play consistently. By turn 3 sneak/show decks will have played emrakul. By turn 3 storm will have a chance to deal 20+ damage already. Usually belcher has gone off by turn 3. Elves are swinging at you in full force or have hardcasted emrakul by then. Zoo can effectively cut your life in half while dealing with both the stoneforge and the batterskull by the time it's ready to hit play.

Legacy's first four turns are very critical, and since batterskull isn't winning you the game within this timeframe, I can't even see what you'd have a use for it in.

The reason it gets the standard hype is because batterskull WILL see a ton of play until stoneforge rotates. It may continue to see play afterward depending on what innistrad has in store also, but it may also drop off depending on the toys we have by then.

[bakofried]

^this^

Beyond that, you act like it's this unkillable awesome threat, and, well, it's not. A 4/4 is nice, but easily outclassed by Knight, Terravore, Tombstalker, Progenitus, Emrakul, and basically any mid-to-late game threat - which is where Batterskull will be hanging out. He'll be *decent* against tribal, but then again, Stoneforge is really good against tribal decks anyway. You also have to factor in how mana-intensive his "recursion" is, and that without Stoneforge, he is garbage. If they can deal with Stoneforge before you forge him in, or if they can deal with both, you're in some trouble, and I don't think a 4/4 dude is worth that.

[kiblast]

Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker or Natural Order

No. Unanswered Tinker in Vintage usually means gg...the same is for Natural Order in legacy. Unanswered Batterskull is... erm.. a 4/4 lifelink?

And by the way, this card is the classic danger of cool things. Doesn't make the cut imho because running Battersull in your 60 means that you are relying a bit too much on your Mystics, which are too fragile by themselves, because the only way you will want to cast BSkull is through your Mystics. Also the equip 5 is a pain in the ass.

[bruizar]

No. Unanswered Tinker in Vintage usually means gg...the same is for Natural Order in legacy. Unanswered Batterskull is... erm.. a 4/4 lifelink?

And by the way, this card is the classic danger of cool things. Doesn't make the cut imho because running Battersull in your 60 means that you are relying a bit too much on your Mystics, which are too fragile by themselves, because the only way you will want to cast BSkull is through your Mystics. Also the equip 5 is a pain in the ass.

How are you relying too much on your mystics? You search for Batterskulll as the 2nd target. First you get a Sword in most situations.

I don't see this as an early threat.

I could definitely see a framework with:

4 Stoneforge Mystics
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of X/Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Batterskull becomes like a Morphling in the sense that you can't get rid of it and you can't properly race it. It's also useful for taking care of Planeswalkers. I believe that with Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskull, your Jace has a much better bodyguard than with Tarmogoyf.

[Lemnear]

Wow! A 5 mana 4/4 vigilance, Lifelink is like Tinker or NO? Then Baneslayer should have broken Magic, huh? To me this part of the discussion is not useful. Moreover I believe SFM is overrated for Legacy use. Tutoring a Jitte is nice but swords and things like batterskull are too mana and time-consuming as DTC already mentioned

[Rune]

The card is very good in GW Maverick because it turns your Stoneforges into removal magnets, making it more likely your Knights survive. It's also relatively easy to hardcast due to mana dorks and Gaea's Cradle. I'm not sure why some people think that things with 5cmc are garbage unless they immediately kill the opponent >_>

[bakofried]

Probably because you're getting an easily outclassed, difficult to abuse body out of it.

[bruizar]

The card is very good in GW Maverick because it turns your Stoneforges into removal magnets, making it more likely your Knights survive. It's also relatively easy to hardcast due to mana dorks and Gaea's Cradle. I'm not sure why some people think that things with 5cmc are garbage unless they immediately kill the opponent >_>

This is my point exactly. You really want to plowshare a Stoneforge Mystic when there is also Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary staring down at you?



Wow! A 5 mana 4/4 vigilance, Lifelink is like Tinker or NO? Then Baneslayer should have broken Magic, huh? To me this part of the discussion is not useful. Moreover I believe SFM is overrated for Legacy use. Tutoring a Jitte is nice but swords and things like batterskull are too mana and time-consuming as DTC already mentioned

So, Tutoring Jitte is nice (Costs 4 mana to cast and equip), but then you go on to say that tutoring a Sword (Costs 2 mana to cheat, and 2 to equip=4) is too expensive. In the same breath you mention Batterskull is too expensive aswell, when Batterskull has Living Weapon and is actually the only equipment of the ones you mentioned that cost 2 mana instead of 2 mana plus an equipcost. Batterskull is ONLY more expensive than any other equipment if your Stoneforge Mystic doesn't survive, in which case your Tarmogoyf or other threats will survive. In any other situation he is the cheapest equipment we have available.



Probably because you're getting an easily outclassed, difficult to abuse body out of it.

What you say is perhaps the most valid argument made against it thus far. However, even if you chump block with it or let it catch removal, there will be times when you will actually equip it for 5 mana on a tarmogoyf and attack for 9 lifelink vigilance, outclassing pretty much everything else.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Batterskull makes Stoneforge Mystic better, no doubt about that. As the opening post states, decks that want to play SFM want to include 1 (and only 1) Batterskull and consider a full playset of SFM.

I believe it is the Batterskull+SFM on par with NO+Proggy statement that draws all the hates. Decks that don't want to play SFM will not attempt to play SFM because of Batterskull. Batterskull is a card that makes SFM better, but not a Proggy that makes NO playable and busted. The broken card is SFM, although her high mana investment does not make it fit into many decks. People play SFM to answer Tribal primarily, and this will not change because of Batterskull. Batterskull just adds SFM deck a bonus against controllish decks.

Batterskull is not a Mental Misstep, but all around a great card and will see Legacy play.

[Rizso]

Interesting idee that should be explored, im a very huge fan of SFM. I wouldnt compare it to tinker or NO thought :D I do like the thing where a squire needs imediatly response or its looking grim.

[bruizar]

Batterskull makes Stoneforge Mystic better, no doubt about that. As the opening post states, decks that want to play SFM want to include 1 (and only 1) Batterskull and consider a full playset of SFM.

I believe it is the Batterskull+SFM on par with NO+Proggy statement that draws all the hates. Decks that don't want to play SFM will not attempt to play SFM because of Batterskull. Batterskull is a card that makes SFM better, but not a Proggy that makes NO playable and busted. The broken card is SFM, although her high mana investment does not make it fit into many decks. People play SFM to answer Tribal primarily, and this will not change because of Batterskull. Batterskull just adds SFM deck a bonus against controllish decks.

Batterskull is not a Mental Misstep, but all around a great card and will see Legacy play.

To add some nuance to the Tinker/Natural Order comment. What I meant wasn't a comparison in power level, but purely a comparison of how similarly costed cards that are eternal staples cheat mana costs, and as a judgment as how one should look at Stoneforge Mystic from a functionality point of view. Don't let the 5 mana CC of Batterskull deter you from properly evaluating Batterskull is all I'm saying.


Also, some more ideas to spread around:
Dead Guy Ale has Mother of Runes and duress effects to protect SFM and force through a Batterskull. Confidant can use the lifegain.

Can Death and Taxes cast 1st SFM to grab a Sword, then vial in Flickerwisp to blink SFM grabbing a Batterskull and cheat it into play because the summoning sickness is already gone?



^this^

Beyond that, you act like it's this unkillable awesome threat, and, well, it's not. A 4/4 is nice, but easily outclassed by Knight, Terravore, Tombstalker, Progenitus, Emrakul, and basically any mid-to-late game threat - which is where Batterskull will be hanging out. He'll be *decent* against tribal, but then again, Stoneforge is really good against tribal decks anyway. You also have to factor in how mana-intensive his "recursion" is, and that without Stoneforge, he is garbage. If they can deal with Stoneforge before you forge him in, or if they can deal with both, you're in some trouble, and I don't think a 4/4 dude is worth that.

*Progenitus and Emrakul don't count, because those are combo decks. Everything is outclassed by tendrils for 20.
*Tombstalker doesn't outclass Batterskull. Tombstalker is 5/5 and needs to tap. this means you can attack with your 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance dude, putting him on 16 and you on 19, who's winning here? Also, should germ die, you can equip something bigger than 0/0 to really outclass Tombstalker.
*Knight of the Reliquary has to be really fricking big to race Batterskull. The only way to do this is by fetching maze of ith first, otherwise Batterskull will just gain 8 life per round. You may want to play Knight and Batterskull together though. Tarmogoyf is outclassed by Knight as well, that doesn't mean you can't play those together..
*Terravore hardly ever sees play, but even if it does, same story for Knight

So the only real card up until now that you mention is Knight of the Reliquary.

[Skeggi]

Bruizar, you've certainly made a point that it's worth it to test Batterskull if you run a deck with Stoneforge Mystic. However, if you want to proof this card is worth running I need match-up statistics and analysis. Just saying "card A" would be awesome because of argument 1, 2 and 3 doesn't mean a thing as long as the arguments are limited to comparing card A with other cards in the meta.

So what I'd like to see is, what would a deck look like with this card and what are the match-up percentages before and after the inclusion of this card. And no estimates please, just raw data.

[Lemnear]

The reason I suggest Swords and batterskull as too slow and expensive is that paying 1W to cast SFM, Next turn Pay 1W and tap SFM to drop Sword/b.skull and in your third turn you are ready to attack. I mean ... 3 turns of tappig out for an active 4/4 lifelink, vigilance or a sworded SFM isn't hot in Legacy. With all the mana and time this costs I rather drop Knights and goofies and punt my opponent off the seat.

IMO this is the same line of thoughts that you should run tarmogoyf with Green sun's zenith's. You remember that discussion? Instead of running real threads like Knights people suggest GSZ to negate tarmogoyfs advantage to be cheap. I can see your use of SFM to be the glue in your suggested package but I think you're hopping through too many hoops here.

Edit: I would rather try to use SFM in Vintage; gett'n a equipted SFM online on turn 2 seems powerful.

[kiblast]

The reason I suggest Swords and batterskull as too slow and expensive is that paying 1W to cast SFM, Next turn Pay 1W and tap SFM to drop Sword/b.skull and in your third turn you are ready to attack. I mean ... 3 turns of tappig out for an active 4/4 lifelink, vigilance or a sworded SFM isn't hot in Legacy. With all the mana and time this costs I rather drop Knights and goofies and punt my opponent off the seat.

Actually you can see it not as an attacker, but as a bonus, like: tap 2: drop an istant 4/4 lifelink chumpblocker. Still not very exciting.
It's interesting though the fact that turn 1 Vial, followed by turn 2 Standstill just became even more stronger. Turn 3, vial in Stoneforge, turn 4 eot vial in Bskull.



Edit: I would rather try to use SFM in Vintage; gett'n a equipted SFM online on turn 2 seems powerful.

It would be interesting to see Stoneforge in a deck packing Squadron Hawk, Jace Tms, Confidants and Skullclamp, alongside with the classical UWB Vintage Brokeness :)

[Lemnear]

I doubt that the hawks are vintage material being a pretty disappointing draw unless you have jace already online and 3 mana to draw 2 via clamp isn't "broken enough" ;D

But back to Legacy: a 4/4 lifelinking jumpblocker isn't exciting because the opponent knows that you have tutored for.

[Amon Amarth]

I actually really like this card but I think its applications are limited. I kinda really wanna play it in some sorta control deck that plays Humility. Seems like a pretty good wincon.

[GGoober]

Ok Bruizar, I usually respect you for your ideas and posts, but this post makes me wonder about your affluences with Vintage (I don't play Vintage as much as you do but some statements here referencing Vintage/Legacy just don't make any sense to me.


http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/New_Phyrexia/Batterskull.jpg

I'm surprised there isn't a thread for this card yet. This card is on everyone's radar for Standard, yet no one talks about it for Legacy.

Batterskull is a great card because it makes your Stoneforge Mystics much better than they were. There are plenty of decks that only run 3 SFM's and Batterskull is the best excuse to run the 4th SFM.

I disagree, Batterskull the way I see it as at best a tutorable RWM on a 4/4 body with vigilance with SFM. This makes SFM slightly better but not in the way you are imagining it to be. In decks that could desire a 4/4 RWM vigilance for 4 mana over 2 turns, then that makes SFM slightly better, but there will not be a big number of SFM decks packing these due to card slots. I mean I guess you can cut Goyfs down because I think recently people are starting to do that (not that I agree). Cutting Goyfs for cards that are slower but win games better is a trade off. You now lose more in the early game or the ability to just win games fast by dropping Goyfs early.



The reason why you play with only 3 SFM's is because you never want to see more than 1 Sword per game. The equip cost is just too great and it sucks to have an equipped creature catch creature removal because you just wasted a lot of mana. Now imagine if you have 2 Swords to equip. One of them will most likely be dead. Therefore, the rationale of only running 3 SFM's is solid.

I agree with this point to some extent. SFM is inherently a tempo-investment card. You have to invest at least 4 mana and possibly 2 turns to get a card e.g. Jitte that recoups the initial tempo loss invested. However, all the current SFM targets SoFI/SoLS/Jitte have very lower mana cost which is why the SFM strategy is fairly successful. In all honesty, it is only successful because the meta itself is prone to cards like Jitte/SoFI, but not really to a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 2WW and involving 1-2 passing the turns.



But Batterskull changes this all. Stoneforge Mystic is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic, right now. He is to white, what tarmogoyf is to green. The correct number of Tarmogoyfs, if you play them, is usually 4 and so is the correct number of Stoneforge Mystics. They are just too good not to play. Batterskull improves your second Stoneforge Mystic, because you can now tutor up a body instead of an extra sword.

Disagree that SFM is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic. Bob, Knights, Goyfs, Lackey still easily trump it. Why? Because these creatures are very efficient and cost efficient, and that's what makes it count the most in this format. Don't forget that with Batterskull, you are inherently playing a 4/4 lifelink vigilance for 2W and passing 1-2 turns. This seems very bad for me. If you do intend to equip to another creature, then i would strongly advise you to rethink about paying 5 mana to equip to a dude that is likely to get removed in response. Now that is HUGE tempo loss. It's a reason why I'm not a fan of SFM, because decks playing SFM are naturally investing and gambling on tempo (hoping opponents don't have the countermagic/removal). In fact, most of the time out-tempo'ing SFM decks, I actually rather the SFM resolve if I have enough removal and just focus on removing creatures in response to equip and all that time, the SFM player is tapping out and not putting up more board position, which gives me the position to win faster.



Batterskull gives you a tutorable 4/4 lifelink vigilance body for 1W. If Tarmogoyf is good enough for Legacy, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that can

Return itself to hand after it has died, to give you a new 4/4 body
Return itself to hand to destroy bridge from belows
Has synergy with other equipment because of vigilance and lifelink
Provides you with an extra blocker (One with lifelink, so you can actually survive a lot more)


is playable as well.
no, it's 2WW involving passing the turn. It is also situational when you pass the turn (assuming they don't plow your Mystic EOT). In this case if they plowed your Mystic, you would have wished you fetched a Jitte that you can cast/equip much easier. Some will argue that an unsituational 1G 4/5 or 5/6 is still better than a 2WW situational4/4 lifelink vigilance body.



Imagine being able to play with a Splicer that reads
1W
1W, Tap: Put into play a 3/3Golem, you may only have 1 Golem in play at the same time. Golems you control get +1/+1, Vigilance, Lifelink and has `3: Return this card to your hand after it has died`

Why is up with this analogy???? This is wrong on so many levels that I won't even begin to comment. Also, after this analogy, all I gathered is that the reusing of battleskull is entirely dependent on SFM being in play, and having 5 mana open in Legacy?



The critics probably want to tell us that

5 mana is way too much to pay for this card, and that the game is long over by then.
This criticism sucks, don´t believe it. Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker or Natural Order. If Vintage decks can play a 12 mana Blightsteel Colossus, and if Legacy decks can play a 10 mana Progenitus, you can surely play a 5 mana equipment. You don´t plan on casting it, you simply cheat it into play.

This is where I start doubting you play Vintage seriously. 1W SFM is far from a 2GG Natural Order that wins games in 2 turns, or a 2U Show and Tell that wins games in 2 turns, and you dare compare it to Tinker, which wins games in 1 turn as early as you can resolve it. The criticism/analogy you have here is in fact the 'sucks', because 5 mana is way too much mana if you cannot win games fast. All the comparisons you made win games in 2 turns and your opponents cannot do anything about it (much limited answers to Progenitus/Emrakul v.s. a 4/4 lifelink vigilance or an equipment, sigh bolt/plow equipped creature in response, grip the equipment block for a 2-1 etc etc).



But what if they plowshares my Mystic?
First, You can get a Sword first and use your second SFM to get Batterskull, now they have to plowshare 2 SFM´s to make Batterskull useless. Chances are, if he´s plowing 1/2´s he won´t have much removal left for your real threats.

Yeah all I see here is StP to SFM parity. If you draw the 2nd SFM, I have the same chance to draw the 2nd StP, except that 1 mana v.s. 1W mana wins in all the situation, and at the same time you are investing 1W to playing Squire while I'm investing my mana to play dudes to beat your face.

Second, you can clear the way with discard effects



Third, if they don´t answer SFM in 1 turn, they are officially dead.

Too much Vintage analogy here again? Sorry, but I can tell you that I'm least worried about Batterskull v.s. something like Jitte.
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My conclusion is that Batterskull greatly improves SFM in multiples. Running Batterskull allows you to get more value out of running a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics, and Stoneforge Mystic is a busted card. I believe this card is like Vengevine. A great standard and legacy card, that only gets love in standard. It takes a while for the legacy community to catch on but it will eventually embrace it.

You maybe right, but I think the judgement you're passing here in this [SCD] is way too premature, which is why people are attacking your arguments. I don't think Batterskull is bad in Legacy, I just disagree that it is as game-changing the way you put it, and you are one-sidedly proclaiming how SFM strategies are super efficient in Legacy when I have a different story to tell from playing against SFM decks.

[NukeMoose]

Can Death and Taxes cast 1st SFM to grab a Sword, then vial in Flickerwisp to blink SFM grabbing a Batterskull and cheat it into play because the summoning sickness is already gone?

*Progenitus and Emrakul don't count, because those are combo decks. Everything is outclassed by tendrils for 20.
*Tombstalker doesn't outclass Batterskull. Tombstalker is 5/5 and needs to tap. this means you can attack with your 4/4 Lifelink Vigilance dude, putting him on 16 and you on 19, who's winning here? Also, should germ die, you can equip something bigger than 0/0 to really outclass Tombstalker.
*Knight of the Reliquary has to be really fricking big to race Batterskull. The only way to do this is by fetching maze of ith first, otherwise Batterskull will just gain 8 life per round. You may want to play Knight and Batterskull together though. Tarmogoyf is outclassed by Knight as well, that doesn't mean you can't play those together..
*Terravore hardly ever sees play, but even if it does, same story for Knight

So the only real card up until now that you mention is Knight of the Reliquary.

No, a flickerwsiped SFM must wait a turn to use it's ability.

NO Prog decks are generally Aggro or Aggro control or control decks. Same with most Emrakul decks. Same with Dreadnought decks. They are as much "combo" as your SFM+batterskull is combo.

Tombstalker does outclass Batterskull, as in it sits there and you can't attack into it. Nobody is saying Batterskull can't race it if they try to attack you to death-that's a retarded play that nobody would try to make.

Knight generally comes down as a 3/3 or 4/4 after a fetch land/wasteland. In one turn it can block/activate growing bigger than Batterskull. Hell even at 2/2 in one turn it can activate for a fetch and bring itself up to 4/4 and in another turn 6/6. So worst case is you eat 4 damage and then it just grows until you swing for 16+ and batterskull has to block. That comparison is in a vaccuum.

Terravore is a lil slower than Knight, but generally comes down larger because it counts opposing fetchs and wastes.

[hyc8028]

My friend and I have been testing Batterskull with stoneforge. Turn 3 battlerskull is very powerful play if you have stoneforge to "vial" it to the battlefield, especially against merfolk and goblin. However, without stoneforge, it is just very slow and clunky. 5 mana for 4/4 is just not impressive. Plus the equip cost is so high that I don't think I want to equip 95% of the time. If I have to spend 5 mana to put something in play, I rather play JTMS.

[Ozymandias]

I sort of feel like this is the card that Dragon Stompy wants in its spare slots. It solves the deck's fundamental problem of "Oh shit, got my RPD plowed" since you can just bounce Batterskull to re-use it, and if your opponent doesn't have an answer that turn for the skull, you can protect it from removal from then on. It's also insane to equip to any of your creatures, if you'd rather do that. Also, you can just hardcast the damn thing and never run into the problems of Jitte, like your own chalices.

[bruizar]

Okay, Let me deal with the NO and Tinker analogy here in a separate post:

What Stoneforge Mystic does with Equipment is inherently the same as Tinker does with Artifacts and Natural Order does with green creatures.

The mechanic is the same, the cost is slightly different. To make my point, I'm going to make a hyberbolic example.

Let's *pretend* that this equipment exists:

Equipment of Doom
CC 20
Equip 0
When you attached Equipment of Doom, untap equipped creature.
+10/+10 Trample

Obviously, this would be on the power level of Emrakul cheats and Progenitus cheats. Suddenly, Stoneforge Mystic's mechanics most closely and more obviously resemble what Tinker and Natural Order try to do. Search your library and cheat something into play while ignoring mana costs.

Please try to understand the underlying concept of what Stoneforge Mystic really is and don't be misguided by the fact that most of the times, it's used to get only a 2 CC or 3 CC equipment into play. Once you begin to understand the comparison, you can easily see that you can negate the mana cost. Especially Tinker is a good comparison because it takes a lot of different cards with varying mana costs (Which Natural Order/Show and Tell don't do).

Tinker2U into Voltaic Key (1CC)
Tinker 2U into Time Vault (2CC)
Tinker2U into Memory Jar (5CC)
Tinker 2U into Blightsteel Colossus (12CC)
or Tinker 2U into Sundering Titan/Myr Battlesphere

Compare this to the possibilities with Stoneforge Mystic
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1+2 Equip into Basilisk Collar (1CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W+2 Equip into Umezawa's Jitte (2CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W+2 Equip into Sword of X+Y (3CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W into Sword of the Meek (2CC)
Stoneforge Mystic 1W+1W into Batterskull (5CC)

The diversity in targets, the fact that it gets you singletons from your deck and the fact that you can cheat the mana cost by putting it in play is the reason for my comparison. I didn't make a power level comparison, because that's just a stupid thing to do. That's like comparing Ancestral Recall with Yawgmoth's Will. They are both stupid broken but they do different things. Stoneforge Mystic tries to do something comparable to NO and Tinker.

[bakofried]

Yes, but Tinker->Tinker target ends the game. In most cases, as does NO->NO target. Stoneforge->Stoneforge target does not. Your method of cheating cool stuff into play kind of fails if you can't get something fairly backbreaking, especially if they just remove the Stoneforge.

[bruizar]

Ok Bruizar, I usually respect you for your ideas and posts, but this post makes me wonder about your affluences with Vintage (I don't play Vintage as much as you do but some statements here referencing Vintage/Legacy just don't make any sense to me.

This is where I start doubting you play Vintage seriously. 1W SFM is far from a 2GG Natural Order that wins games in 2 turns, or a 2U Show and Tell that wins games in 2 turns, and you dare compare it to Tinker, which wins games in 1 turn as early as you can resolve it. The criticism/analogy you have here is in fact the 'sucks', because 5 mana is way too much mana if you cannot win games fast. All the comparisons you made win games in 2 turns and your opponents cannot do anything about it (much limited answers to Progenitus/Emrakul v.s. a 4/4 lifelink vigilance or an equipment, sigh bolt/plow equipped creature in response, grip the equipment block for a 2-1 etc etc).

I just tried to explain my analogies in my previous post. I hope you understand my point of view by now. Also, I've got nearly 1000 posts on TMD and have been playing this game since 1994. I expected some heated debate over this thread, because if it was too obvious, there would have already been a thread about this card. Opening threads about obvious cards like Mental Misstep is less interesting for me personally.


I agree with this point to some extent. SFM is inherently a tempo-investment card. You have to invest at least 4 mana and possibly 2 turns to get a card e.g. Jitte that recoups the initial tempo loss invested. However, all the current SFM targets SoFI/SoLS/Jitte have very lower mana cost which is why the SFM strategy is fairly successful. In all honesty, it is only successful because the meta itself is prone to cards like Jitte/SoFI, but not really to a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker for 2WW and involving 1-2 passing the turns.

Glad we agree on something :-)


Disagree that SFM is one of the most powerful creature cards in magic. Bob, Knights, Goyfs, Lackey still easily trump it. Why? Because these creatures are very efficient and cost efficient, and that's what makes it count the most in this format.
Batterskull´s living weapon ability makes it the cheapest equipment that we have available, not counting non SFM equipments. If they answer it, who cares, move onto a new plan. If equipment is too slow anyway, just try to sneak in your living weapon for a mere 1W and see how far you can get. Paying 2WW over 2 turns to get 2 guys out of 1 card is not a bad deal at all. Especially considering what kind of creatures they are.


Don't forget that with Batterskull, you are inherently playing a 4/4 lifelink vigilance for 2W and passing 1-2 turns. This seems very bad for me. If you do intend to equip to another creature, then i would strongly advise you to rethink about paying 5 mana to equip to a dude that is likely to get removed in response.
I think that there will be games that will benefit from equipping Batterskull to a goyf or a Knight. Games that are at a standstill, or when you need to gain a large chunk of life in 1 go. 5 Mana is not always the end of the game. Jace comes down at 4 mana and takes another aeon-and-a-half to kill. That means that the game goes until far beyond the 5th turn, even though the fundamental turn may have already occured.



no, it's 2WW involving passing the turn. It is also situational when you pass the turn (assuming they don't plow your Mystic EOT). In this case if they plowed your Mystic, you would have wished you fetched a Jitte that you can cast/equip much easier. Some will argue that an unsituational 1G 4/5 or 5/6 is still better than a 2WW situational4/4 lifelink vigilance body.

I don´t have a good rebuttal against this. Yes, Jitte is affordable to cast. Yes, it´s not that nice to have a Batterskull clogging your hands. On the other hand, it´s 1 StP less. Batterskull makes SFM a bomb that must be answered. The inclusion of 1 card turns 4 cards into bombs. I don´t see that as something bad.



Also, after this analogy, all I gathered is that the reusing of battleskull is entirely dependent on SFM being in play, and having 5 mana open in Legacy?

Yes, that is correct. Batterskull will not be your routine go-to-equipment. It´s situational the same way Sword of Light and Shadow is situational. You only bring those out for the protection and sometimes for the abilities. Same can be said about Sword of Fire and Ice. That´s why a lot of decks are running 2 Swords.. To cover most of the situations, even though they are both situationally awesome.





Yeah all I see here is StP to SFM parity. If you draw the 2nd SFM, I have the same chance to draw the 2nd StP, except that 1 mana v.s. 1W mana wins in all the situation,
This part I can agree on. You have to consider though, that StP is a reactive card. If you DON´T have StP in hand, you are in trouble and I am not. If I don´t have SFM in hand, I am not in trouble. If I can trade my SFM´s for your StPs I am doing a good job even though I´m investing one more mana to do so per StP. My other threats will be in the clear.



and at the same time you are investing 1W to playing Squire while I'm investing my mana to play dudes to beat your face.

This part I can´t agree on. While you are busy StPíng my SFM´s, I still have my 4 StPs to throw at your goyfs and knights. My own goyfs and Knights are still unmolested. I have the most threats, thus I will win.



Too much Vintage analogy here again? Sorry, but I can tell you that I'm least worried about Batterskull v.s. something like Jitte.

Batterskull is not in any sense comparable to Jitte. It´s not even comparable to Sword of Fire and Ice. It´s a BODY, not an EQUIPMENT. The living weapon ability makes a world of difference!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You maybe right, but I think the judgement you're passing here in this [SCD] is way too premature, which is why people are attacking your arguments. I don't think Batterskull is bad in Legacy, I just disagree that it is as game-changing the way you put it, and you are one-sidedly proclaiming how SFM strategies are super efficient in Legacy when I have a different story to tell from playing against SFM decks.
I am not trying to overhype the card. I think it definitely has its place in legacy and the absence of any SCD thread felt strange in my opinion, because I think it's a very relevant printing that gives SFM players a new tool.

[Jak]

I'm linking to this thread when everyone and their mom runs 4 SFM and 1 Batterskull. It will happen.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I'm linking to this thread when everyone and their mom runs 4 SFM and 1 Batterskull. It will happen.

+1. But to make it more accurate, it will only happen to decks that alrealy have SFM.

We all know SFM is of Legacy quality by being a Tutor and providing CA at a fair cost. Batterskull updates her arsenal, enabling tutoring for a creature. It is not a "oops, I win", but a "haha, I am a step ahead".

[lordofthepit]

The problem with running 4 Stoneforge Mystics is that you also need to run a decent number of Equipments so that you can get value when you draw multiple Mystics and/or Equipment before you play your Mystics. That alone constrains the deck space, because now you probably have 52 deck slots to work with.

Now that you rely so heavily on equipment, you're probably going to want to run a healthy number of creatures. I'd say at least 20 to be safe.

So now you've taken up 24 business slots, and presumably need at least 22 lands for such a mana-intensive engine. You have at most 14 other cards to work with. Are you going to use a Death-and-Taxes shell? A Zoo shell? A Bant shell (knowing that you're dangerously close to not being able to support FOW with your low blue count)? A Junk shell?

It could work, and those decks would probably beat up on opposing aggro. But by choosing to build around Batterskull and designing your deck in a way to make it "not suck", you have unnecessarily introduced deck constraints that affect the rest of your card choices. All for a fairly slow combo that usually, but not always gets there against aggro (but still loses to common removal spells) and doesn't do much at all against most control decks or combo decks.

[SpikeyMikey]

Jak: Link away.

I'm not scared to go on record saying that Batterskull in Legacy is the worst idea since Crystal Pepsi. It's already been discussed that 2WW for a 4/4 lifelink Vigilance is underwhelming at best. Even if it does come with another 1/2 body. 4 mana for a 5/6 lifelinker would be unimpressive. At 4 mana, I get Humility. I get Tendrils of Agony. I get Jace. Moat. Natural Order. Sneak Attack.

Your comparison of SFM -> Batterskull as being on par with NO -> Pro just because you cheat mana costs (and not by much, 4 mana vs. 5, albeit over two turns) is pointless. Goblin Lackey also lets you cheat mana costs. More effectively than SFM, I might add. And the 5 drops you could lay down with Lackey are far better than Batterskull. SGC and Kiki-Jiki both outclass it. Yet Goblins almost never runs Kiki anymore, and SGC is usually a 1 of if it isn't replaced with Sharpshooter, an extra Warren Weirding or occasionally Wort. Because 5 mana is too expensive in Legacy, even if you can sometimes cheat it into play. You don't want 5 mana spells in your opening grip cluttering up your hand because turns in this format are so tight, you CANNOT AFFORD DEAD CARDS. You can get away with dead cards like Prog or Emrakul or Dream Halls or Hive Mind because when they land, they end the game immediately or next to. Batterskull is, best case scenario, a turn 8 kill. Oooh, mommy, I'm terrified of the big bad living weapon that will kill me if I can't answer it by turn 8! As opposed to the Dreadnought that will kill me turn 4, the legion of Fish killing me on turn 5, etc.

The reason there wasn't a thread for this is because it wasn't worth its own discussion. It could've easily been discussed in the main spoiler thread (same goes for Torpor Orb, as far as that goes). I'm pretty sure you're not just trolling, but if you are, you get a 10/10 from me.

[TossUsToLions]

Honestly, i really hope that decks add a 4th Stoneforge and 1 Batterskull. All it will do will clog their hand in the early game with suboptimal cards so that they have less cards to stop me killing them before they can even get the Batterskull out. Progenitus has the drawback that if it is in your hand, it sucks without a Brainstorm or something to get it back in your library. But it has an upside that when it hits the table, it's pretty much GG. This can not be said for Batterskull.

[Gheizen64]

Honestly, i really hope that decks add a 4th Stoneforge and 1 Batterskull. All it will do will clog their hand in the early game with suboptimal cards so that they have less cards to stop me killing them before they can even get the Batterskull out. Progenitus has the drawback that if it is in your hand, it sucks without a Brainstorm or something to get it back in your library. But it has an upside that when it hits the table, it's pretty much GG. This can not be said for Batterskull.

Progenitus isn't castable, Batterskull is, even if 5 mana are a lot in legacy. Sure, it may not be efficient, but it's still a playable card while Progenitus is absolutely dead. Also having Progenitus in hand also mean your other 4 NO are dead until you can reshuffle it in with Brainstorm/Jace, and further NO after the first are usually dead in your hand (even if usually this doesn't matter as a Progenitus on the board is game over). Adding a 4th Stoneforge+1Batterskull don't clog hands like NOPro do, it's not even near.

Tutoring Batterskull first isn't often the right play, however it is a must answer play that completely wreck Merfolk (and a little other decks) if done on T1.

Personally, i think most people underestimate this card, but we'll see.

[SpikeyMikey]

Most NO decks (except NO Show) run 3 Natural Orders. A lot run 1 Prog and 1 Terrastadon now, but even without 'don, NO is about as useful as Batterskull since you're turning a Dryad Arbor into a nice fat KotR or 'goyf which is on par with a Batterskull at least.

[deviant]

I was already very close to running bonehoard as it's a tutorable body.

Guess what I think of batterskull?

[DTC]

How are you relying too much on your mystics? You search for Batterskulll as the 2nd target. First you get a Sword in most situations.

I don't see this as an early threat.

I could definitely see a framework with:

4 Stoneforge Mystics
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of X/Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Batterskull becomes like a Morphling in the sense that you can't get rid of it and you can't properly race it. It's also useful for taking care of Planeswalkers. I believe that with Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskull, your Jace has a much better bodyguard than with Tarmogoyf.

That's another thing about it though. If batterskull is a secondary target then you're wasting space already, for either an all around better option, or even just a more successful equipment. Jittes are versatile, and putting jitte on a creature makes it a threat in itself, and it gives you a 2cmc removal spell against an opposing jitte. In aggro and midrange matchups, having a jitte stick for more than a turn swings the match in favor of the jitte player as they'll blow up your smaller guys and race goyfs/kotrs and the rest of the big boys in the field. The enemy swords are versatile depending on your matchup. Exactly which matchup does batterskull help you that those won't?

You have to factor in the pile too. Do you want to draw batterskull at many points in the game? It feels more like a win-more card for decks that are maindecking 3-4 stoneforges, which on its own is usually a secondary strategy card too. SFM is slow by legacy standards that running 3-4 with enough equips will clog your hand when you could use other resources such as countermagic, removals, or creature threats so running enough cards to make that many useful runs the risk of poor draws during the stage of the game you need them most. SFM is great against tribal and creature based decks like zoo or bant, but there's a good number of the field where you'll want better resources in the early turns and having 1-2 mystics and even 1 equip in your opening 7 is a bad sign unless you're in a matchup where you have enough time to develop without interruptions (something legacy is great at doing in most tier 1 decks already unless you're playing against dredge/combo, but either will kill you before you have a chance to develop anyway so they don't care about what you're doing). The benefits you get from SFM is more situational than the benefits you get from other 2 drops like goyf, confidant, etc that don't require the same constructed setbacks.

Just think of what you're trying to achieve by cheating a batterskull that jittes and swords aren't already doing a better job at. Yes, you get the germ but this means the batterskull has two ways to be stopped unless you want to pay 5 to equip or 3 to blink. Mana resources are already precious enough in early/mid games that the only time this card will shine is late game, and you'll already be winning more likely if it got to the point where batterskull is useful. It's not as useful on the losing end, and an even worse topdeck in those situations.


Most NO decks (except NO Show) run 3 Natural Orders. A lot run 1 Prog and 1 Terrastadon now, but even without 'don, NO is about as useful as Batterskull since you're turning a Dryad Arbor into a nice fat KotR or 'goyf which is on par with a Batterskull at least.

NO is still more useful because of its utility in those situations. Even if I draw a prog and can't brainstorm it back to the library, i have enough big boys in a deck like bant that turning dryad arbors into any other creature is not bad during mid/late games. Batterskull doesn't have that same utility though.

[Forbiddian]

1) SFM is very slow and it's a puny body. It's outstanding in the long run, in terms of card advantage, threat density, etc. but its board presence is nearly non-existent. Running a lot of SFMs slows down your deck quite a bit. I don't think I've ever seen a Legacy deck sporting 4 SFMs.

2) Batterskull is a bad draw without SFM. If you draw Batterskull, or if you tutor Batterskull and SFM is removed, it's very unlikely you'll be able to use Batterskull for a long time. Jitte is a much stronger draw, and is probably the best tutor target at any rate because you can recast it.

3) Even Batterskull with SFM combo is not really that much to write home about. Honestly to the people saying that it turns SFM into a must-kill, don't kid yourself. A 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink is not board dominating any more than is a 1/2 with an Umezawa's Jitte and people weren't running for the hills when they saw a Jitte.



I can't see myself EVER playing Batterskull without 3-4 SFMs, I can't see myself wanting to play 3-4 SFMs, and I can rarely see myself choosing to tutor up Batterskull over Jitte and even then it's a high-risk play.

[Royal Ass.]

Humility pumps your germ token!!!!! ;)


I'm not sure about Batrterskull in Legacy, but I do think that it at least deserves to be tested. I do know however that I am running a SFM in my EDH deck and will definitely be using it to fetch out a Baterskull!

[DTC]

1) SFM is very slow and it's a puny body. It's outstanding in the long run, in terms of card advantage, threat density, etc. but its board presence is nearly non-existent. Running a lot of SFMs slows down your deck quite a bit. I don't think I've ever seen a Legacy deck sporting 4 SFMs.

2) Batterskull is a bad draw without SFM. If you draw Batterskull, or if you tutor Batterskull and SFM is removed, it's very unlikely you'll be able to use Batterskull for a long time. Jitte is a much stronger draw, and is probably the best tutor target at any rate because you can recast it.

3) Even Batterskull with SFM combo is not really that much to write home about. Honestly to the people saying that it turns SFM into a must-kill, don't kid yourself. A 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink is not board dominating any more than is a 1/2 with an Umezawa's Jitte and people weren't running for the hills when they saw a Jitte.



I can't see myself EVER playing Batterskull without 3-4 SFMs, I can't see myself wanting to play 3-4 SFMs, and I can rarely see myself choosing to tutor up Batterskull over Jitte and even then it's a high-risk play.

Exactly, and it's simply because by the time SFM has time to tutor and cheat even a jitte into play, your opponent will have had time to develop, or have things like goyf/kotr beating you down that it's irrelevant. It's more effective mid/late game if you run 1-2 so you can tutor your own jitte/sword against tribals or to settle kotr/goyf wars.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I had my magic-skull bashed in by Batterskull recently, and was extremely impressed with it. I've had a few runs with it myself since then, but haven't been able to replicate quite the same degree of awesomeness that I witnessed initially. Nonetheless, I find myself on the OP's side here: unlike other equipment, it's never a dead draw (i.e. no creatures on the field). The equip cost is prohibitive, however, and we do run into problems with what to cut. Nonetheless, I'm all for running a copy with SFM: a 4/4 with Lifelink, while not the biggest creature on the field, is still quite welcome. Especially defensively, since returning it to your hand is fairly easy (although I'm aware being on the defensive is not an ideal situation). It's worth noting, too, that Noble Hierarch and KotR do go a long way to helping with its various mana requirements.

[SpikeyMikey]

I would like for someone to give me examples of matchups it's worth running against besides Fish/Goblins. Because beating up random-mws-homebrew.dec doesn't do it for me. It's too slow to be relevant against combo. Bant aggro will be glad you're jerking off half the game and prog you out. TA will kill the damn thing and you'll never have enough mana to equip it or hardcast it. Thopters will ignore it as it's less threatening than QPM or KotR, Affinity will race with MoE/Plating. Elves will ignore you and cast Emrakul. Mono-B variants or Junk decks will strip it out of your hand before you can play it. So Bant CB, a deck that's on the decline anyway, Landstill which is hanging on to tier 2 status by it's fingernails and possibly Canadian Thresh which is weak against things they can't burn, i.e. half the format.

[ivanpei]

My friend and I have been testing Batterskull with stoneforge. Turn 3 battlerskull is very powerful play if you have stoneforge to "vial" it to the battlefield, especially against merfolk and goblin. However, without stoneforge, it is just very slow and clunky. 5 mana for 4/4 is just not impressive. Plus the equip cost is so high that I don't think I want to equip 95% of the time. If I have to spend 5 mana to put something in play, I rather play JTMS.

This, it simply sucks to Draw it and not have stoneforge. It's not like Jitte/SOFI which are excellent to draw. I've been testing Batterskull and I have never tutored for it with SFM. Simply because of the fact that Killing stuff with -1/-1 counters/Shocks -> Gaining 4 life a turn. Batterskull is easily nullified by an opposing goyf. Folk can grow up to 4/4 easily to trade with batterskull. Goblins can build a horde and force you to block piledriver with batterskull.

What makes equipment awesome is not the buffs/life but the recurring removal to keep huge hordes in check. Also when you throw down Equip, you can swing immediately and have the counters on, ready to shoot stuff. T2 Stoneforge is never the ideal play. I try to avoid this play if possible because Jitte is a late game card and you are prone to being blown out by removal in response to equip if you invest too much mana into it too early. Thats why we don't play 4 SFM and XX equipment. I want to be dropping Goyfs, KOTRs etc on the early turns and finish off with SFM into Equip for the blow out.

Batterskull off a SFM late game is insanely slow. You have to cast SFM, wait a turn to vial it into play, wait another turn then bash. I'd rather just SFM Jitte, cast jitte, next turn bash, win! -1/-1 or +2/+2 counters ->> life gain any day of the week. It lets you break deadlocks against KOTRs and goyf which a 4/4 batterskull does nothing against. I was excited about this card. Looks like I'll just sell mine to Standard players, where its obviously a bomb.

[plus_ten]

Batterskull.. a 5-drop that requires SFM (another card) to work decently...Where have we seen a card like this before?

Well, we have... FOW, which needs any other blue card to work, functions as a turn-0 hard counter and tempo machine; NO, which needs any other green creature to pop a 2-turn nigh-unstoppable clock in play, and Ad Nauseum, which is a 5-drop, functions as a complete engine to win games once it resolves. So, how does this 5-drop compare to a format staple and ONE OF the premier build-around card of the format?

TL;DR? Unplayable. A card that can't stand alone and can't be built around effectively will never see play.

[Rune]

I think the problem is that people put all SFM decks into one basket. I don't expect it to be that good in decks that can't produce a lot of mana (aka nongreen SFM decks), but I imagine it's probably still playable because it adds a lot more value to SFM. On the other hand, it's been excellent the few times I tried it out in green SFM because it's easy to hardcast if it gets stranded in your hand when you have no SFM in play.



Ad Nauseum


Sorry, but comparing these two cards makes no goddamn sense. That's like saying people are stupid for playing JTMS when they could just pay 1 more mana and cast Ad Nauseam instead.

[plus_ten]

lol. I was trying to point out that no other card in legacy actually costs 5, until I realised that AdN is a 5-drop. So, I have to make it that such cards are build-around cards (and AdN is certainly a build-around).

PS. the point I am making is that there is no other card in that can be compared to Batterskull (ie. you are right, it would make no sense), such that 'no other card' in legacy need to depend on another card to work and that in those very rare cases that it does require another card, it is a complete blowout.

EDIT: Oh snap! I mean, don't bring up stompy, those decks play a completely different style to 'normal' deck with their sol lands. Sure, Batterskull can go into stompy, what high-cmc wincon can't?

[Lemnear]

SFM + Batterskull like Tinker, FoW, Ad Nauseam, Natural Order ... this thread goes crazy man! Dicussing cards by their manacost alone is incredible narrow-minded. Next we discuss Yawgmoth's Bargain and Grave Titan with the argument that the titan is stronger because it can beat ... Hilarious!

If we talk about (SFM +) Batterskull we have to fokus on equip and creatures. Is it better than swords or jitte? Doubt that. Is a 5 mana 4/4 lifelink, vigilance (2WW + timewalk for your opponent) better than a 4/5 (5/6) for 1G? Never!

[GGoober]

It's kinda hilarious to Stifle not the SFM but the Batterskull if they ever tutored this up with SFM against a deck playing Stifles. (don't use the argument you can bounce it back and do it again) because that's 5 mana on say something like turn 3, or maybe 5 mana spread over 2 turns, which means 3 turns since the Batterskull has summoning sickness. The card is definitely a strong card for SFM decks, but it still has its inherent tempo-loss/slowness built into it. It is a much more situational equipment (by situation I mean it only works great with SFM, otherwise utterly horrible in the format) than Jitte/SoFI. And in all honesty if your opponent can't deal with Batterskull v.s. can't deal with Jitte, I can still say Jitte rapes more face than Batterskull.

[bruizar]

Just want to add that Rhox War Monk is a card that sees play in legacy.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

I think this card is a trap in Legacy. If your SFM dies, you get an expensive equipment that you probably won't cast. You'd be better of with a Jitte or a Sword imo.

[Rizso]

I think this card is a trap in Legacy. If your SFM dies, you get an expensive equipment that you probably won't cast. You'd be better of with a Jitte or a Sword imo.

At least he wont be drawing it. Its still 1 for 2.

[SpikeyMikey]

Just want to add that Rhox War Monk is a card that sees play in legacy.

RWM costs 3, is only played in decks running Hierarch and GSZ -> Arbor to get it on turn 2, pitches to FoW (very important since most Bant decks are only running ~19 blue spells, without RWM it gets really sketchy) and doesn't rely on you playing SFM. Yes, once on the board, BSkull is better than RWM, but Pit Spawn is better still and Emrakul is better than that. You're going through a lot of work to put a slightly better than mediocre creature on the board.

[CorpT]

So what are the scenarios where you play a SFM and want to get this over Jitte? Because I can't think o many. IMO, the only value it has is in your hand as a surprise. Fetch the Jitte and leave the SFM back. Let them attack and flash a 4/4 Lifelink creature into play. Outside of that.... I can't imagine many scenarios where I would want this over Jitte or SoFaI.

[bruizar]

Some information from Bazaar of Moxen from http://manainfinito.com/articulos/road-annecy-dia-4-legacy-main-event

Translated through Chrome:

The hype of the moment (and Must henceforth) has been the Mental misstep. Yesterday it went on sale came to 10 euros (35 in foil) and have not stopped climbing all day. We must get the playset (although it is clear that prices will be lower here.)

The other MVP of the tournament has been the Batterskull. The ability to lift items that have the new computer is amazing.

That last sentence doesn't make much sense, but I'm curious as to what happened with Batterskull on BoM

EDIT:

Slightly better translation is more along the lines of:

The other MVP of the tournament has been the Batterskull. The possibility to lift games that have the new equipment is amazing.

[The Treefolk Master]

The translation is:

The other MVP of the tournament has been Batterskull. The ability it has to turn around games is incredible.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure if I understand this hype. The number of cards that completely turn around the game for five mana is substantial, and I'm fairly certain every color has access to something with more direct impact than a 4/4 lifelinker.

[bruizar]

I'm not sure if I understand this hype. The number of cards that completely turn around the game for five mana is substantial, and I'm fairly certain every color has access to something with more direct impact than a 4/4 lifelinker.

Its not that hard to understand. All of a sudden you have to waste removal on Stoneforge Mystics that you would have used on real creatures in response to Equipping them. The reason why you don't understand it, is because you are still saying Batterskull costs 5 mana. That is like saying Blightsteel Colossus costs 12 mana. Irrelevant, because you will hardly ever pay that mana to play him. This is why I said that Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker and Natural Order in terms of mechanics (read: not powerlevel). Also, people underestimate how good Living Weapon is.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

I just don't believe the opportunity cost is worth it.

Mainphasing a SFM into the skull and then cheating the skull into play at the end of your opponent's next turn just doesn't seem like an ideal string of plays in the hyper-compact, first three turns of a Legacy match. Taking into account the first SFM will almost never search up the skull combined with the deck-space required to make that the primary engine, I don't see the investment in resources being worth more than just dropping Knight of the Reliquary turn three. The knight and the skull come alive on the same turn, and the Knight has way more upside.

Additionally, when compared to casting a regular, efficient creature, there are more steps in which the SFM+Skull play is susceptible to disruption. Once disrupted, it is significantly more time and mana-intensive to recover when the five-mana equipment gets stuck in your hand.

Overall, I remain unconvinced that Batterskull is worth a maindeck slot or that Stoneforge Mystic should be played as a four-of in legacy. Arguments for a sideboarded Batterskull in a deck only slightly leaning on Stoneforge Mystic might have some merit though.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So what are the scenarios where you play a SFM and want to get this over Jitte? Because I can't think o many. IMO, the only value it has is in your hand as a surprise. Fetch the Jitte and leave the SFM back. Let them attack and flash a 4/4 Lifelink creature into play. Outside of that.... I can't imagine many scenarios where I would want this over Jitte or SoFaI.

Scenarios:
-- you want a creature instead of an equipment.
-- you already have a Jitte/SoFai out.
-- you need a blocker for nacatls/goblins

So many awkward comparisons in this thread! I start with another one.
SFM and Batterskull is like Trinked mage and Chimeric Mass.

The main problem is:
Pre SFM decks used to run about 3-6 equipments.
Now with SFM some decks decided to run 3 SFM and 3 equipments.
Now we talking about a full playset SFM and at least 4 equipments. So you kinda have to build around that 8 slots... Angel Stompy?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Its not that hard to understand. All of a sudden you have to waste removal on Stoneforge Mystics that you would have used on real creatures in response to Equipping them. The reason why you don't understand it, is because you are still saying Batterskull costs 5 mana. That is like saying Blightsteel Colossus costs 12 mana. Irrelevant, because you will hardly ever pay that mana to play him. This is why I said that Stoneforge Mystic is like Tinker and Natural Order in terms of mechanics (read: not powerlevel). Also, people underestimate how good Living Weapon is.

"Wasting" removal on a Stoneforge Mystic doesn't seem bad to me in this scenario. You're stranding the card he got in their hand. And if you're relying on untapping with Stoneforge Mystic, that just seems bad to me. For what, to get a two mana 4/4 lifelinker? For the hidden costs, that's not much. And if you plan on reusing it, well, we're back into the realm of five mana.

I can imagine a scenario where Batterskull is better than one of the Swords or Jittes, but a scenario isn't what you work from. In what matchup would this be better than SoFI, SoFF, or SoLS?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

In what matchup would this be better than SoFI, SoFF, or SoLS?

The first one that comes to mind is any control deck. Even though they can counter it, bewteen SFM and Vial dropping free stuff, the game going long naturally and the fact that Batterskull blanks removal when you have mana to use it, it is most certainly useful as a 1-of at least in the SB

[ivanpei]

By the time you get to 5 mana/your opponent gets to 5, the game is already over. This is not standard. The critical turns are 2/3 not 5/6. I'd rather have a SOFI drawing me cards and shocking everyturn by then. A late batterskull won't save you against control. If you are boucing and replaying batterskulls, the game is already over and you've lost. There are more mana efficient things to do than that. People can just kill batterskull/counter it.

Having said that, it's sick in standard. I tried it in Dstompy and White stompy. Still gets a no from me. Never ever came down in time to matter. SFM never looked for it. Most of the time, jitte is just better. I want to be nuking dudes everyturn. Folk/gobs don't care about you gaining 4 life a turn when they can alpha for like 10-16 damage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Inclined to agree. The card seems really good in Standard, but so was Bituminous Blast and Aeon Chronicler.

And most of the late-game cards you bring in against control for the same cost have ways of, you know, not getting countered. This doesn't. Counterspell and Force are more important worries in the late game against control than Disenchant. If you're playing white anyway, Reveillark or Decree of Justice or Armageddon all seem much scarier against control decks, and they're not really being played.

[Mr. Safety]

Batterskull seems weak...I mean, you still have cards like Exalted Angel available to you. Hell, Serra Angel used to be the finisher of choice for Weissman-style decks, and that was a 4/4 vigilance flyer for 5 mana. It has been relegated to uncommon status, and used to be a top rare. This should tell you the power level of Batterskull. For my mana, I'd play Exalted Angel.

[Rizso]

Batterskull have been seen play in stoneforge + bob decks in the ssg open louisville.

[evanmartyr]

Batterskull have been seen play in stoneforge + bob decks in the ssg open louisville.

/applause.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Batterskull have been seen play in stoneforge + bob decks in the ssg open louisville.

And one of them Top4ed, sweet.

[Rizso]

2 Decks with batterskull in the top 8 :P

[SpikeyMikey]

And yet...

[bruizar]

I'm linking to this thread when everyone and their mom runs 4 SFM and 1 Batterskull. It will happen.

Do it. This thread goes in my personal archive of mtglolz.

PS: For those that thought 5 mana was too much. Yesterday at SCG a Batterskull was blocked by a Silvergill adept and a Lord of Atlantis, killing germ, lord and adept. He then passed the turn and EOT bounced Batterskull / Replayed it for more beats. This was against Merfolk, a deck known for its combination of pressure / permission.

[Grollub]

Batterskull has proven to be the real deal. Gotta love people only evaluating cards in magic wonderland where all games end before you draw seven. Nice call Bruizar. :-)

[SpikeyMikey]

Batterskull has proven to be the real deal. Gotta love people only evaluating cards in magic wonderland where all games end before you draw seven. Nice call Bruizar. :-)

You know, when Odyssey came out, I read about Battle of Wits taking down a States. Somewhere in the Southwest, Arizona or Utah or somewhere around there. First place at a major tournament. And yet 250 card decks never became the norm. Funny that. So you can still color me a skeptic. The card is a big steaming pile.

[eq.firemind]

After two months Batterskull proved its mythic status and Legacy playability.
Oh wait...
Only a week passed since New Phyrexia became legal in DCI tournaments!
People, we CAN be patient, can't we?

[Mr. Safety]

And one of them Top4ed, sweet.

In the words of Mike Flores: there are no wrong threats. It worked because the support shell of the deck worked, not because Batterskull was 'great'. This isn't a good evaluation of threat quality. You could win with a Llanowar Elves attacking 20 times or a Progenitus twice...is that a fair evaluation? Answer for yourself.

[TsumiBand]

Do it. This thread goes in my personal archive of mtglolz.

PS: For those that thought 5 mana was too much. Yesterday at SCG a Batterskull was blocked by a Silvergill adept and a Lord of Atlantis, killing germ, lord and adept. He then passed the turn and EOT bounced Batterskull / Replayed it for more beats. This was against Merfolk, a deck known for its combination of pressure / permission.

This is the sort of play that probably won't be happening for very much longer, though. That's more of a RTFC than anything; of course you don't 2-for-0 yourself once you figure out just what Batterskull does.

Having read the above example I can see how a deck which has no hard removal for equipment might have difficulty dealing with SFM + Batterskull. And as much as I'd love to be the dude sitting across from Merfolk with Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, active Batterskull and a 40 of High Life, it feels to me like 'Cool Things' were happening instead of 'Good Things'. Safety's comment about 'no bad threats' is totally true; the 'bad answer' was probably allowing SFM to stay in play in the first place. If there's a report to go with this amazing play against Merfolk I would like to read it.

[bruizar]

obv double block was stupid. My point was that he got to 5 land against merfolk, which is supposed to be a perfect combination of pressure and permission

[SpikeyMikey]

obv double block was stupid. My point was that he got to 5 land against merfolk, which is supposed to be a perfect combination of pressure and permission

A buddy of mine won with Shelter once. It let him make a creature unblockable and walk through a (potentially) giant Psychatog.

When my opponent casts Natural Order, I'd rather have Envelop in hand than Mental Misstep.

But I'm not going to run Shelter or Envelop in my 75 because while there are situations in which they're useful, there are other cards that are more useful more often. It's not that there are no situations where Batterskull is useful. It's that there are more situations where it's not useful than there are situations where it is useful.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

obv double block was stupid. My point was that he got to 5 land against merfolk, which is supposed to be a perfect combination of pressure and permission

I don't think anyone describes Merfolk as perfect. In fact, since your example involves a deck that has fits dealing with creatures in a scenario where SoFI or Jitte would be just as good or better, your post translates into:

"New Standard card see play as a one-of target and top 4's an SCG Legacy Open, that tournament that's mostly Standard players hanging out the Sunday after."

Be still my beating heart.

I think Batterskull is a good card that will see play in a lot of formats. I also think that's true of Karn Liberated and Birthing Pod.

But the big, expensive and splashy rares tend not to see much translation into Legacy, unless they're so big that cheating them into play ends the game. Cheating a Batterskull into play with Mystic is nice, but hardly game-ending, and meanwhile it's nearly dead in hand when it matters, and even SoFI and Jitte have problems with slowness.



Batterskull has proven to be the real deal. Gotta love people only evaluating cards in magic wonderland where all games end before you draw seven. Nice call Bruizar. :-)

Easy, chief, you're a bit quick on the draw there. Try to relax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyl5DlrsU90) and think of baseball.

[Amon Amarth]

That dude was slapping the shit outta that bass and did I see someone with a keyboard tie?

[SlopeeJ]

We saw how bad the batterskull was in the top 8 of the legacy yesterday at starcity games. Sure dude punted but if he would have just gotten sword or jitte he could have equipped his crusader and swung in for major damage/counters. Instead he was stuck with a 4/4 that got wrecked by tombstalker and no 5 mana to equip to the crusader to win the game.

I was even wondering, why doesn't he just equip to the crusader and own everything.. Oh wait it costs 5 mana

[GGoober]

Batterskull being good against Merfolks doesn't really say much in my opinion. It's as good as a resolved Wurmcoil against Merfolks. It just so happens that the Batterskull proved itself in a matchup where Merfolks has trouble to begin with i.e. SFM/Jitte/Lifelinkers

I like how the supporters for Batterskull get overly happy when their 'pet' card has shown some good result in ONE SCG event. Let's give it some time, maybe it's going to break the format or be more popularly played. Wait, nevermind, just say a bunch of Mental Missteps. I could care less about Batterskull than MM. I mean someone is going to play a Batterskull and wreck the matchups where it's favored, but for most parts, other decks are just going to roll over the decks packing Batterskull (High Tide, Storm, Tempo). I don't think it's fair to jump around when the equipment has done well in matchups where it already is win more, but hasn't proven itself in a whole class of other decks/matchups.

[Justin]

We saw how bad the batterskull was in the top 8 of the legacy yesterday at starcity games. Sure dude punted but if he would have just gotten sword or jitte he could have equipped his crusader and swung in for major damage/counters. Instead he was stuck with a 4/4 that got wrecked by tombstalker and no 5 mana to equip to the crusader to win the game.

I was even wondering, why doesn't he just equip to the crusader and own everything.. Oh wait it costs 5 mana

What you have described does not suggest that Batterskull is a bad card. It was just bad in a particular situation and the player made a big mistake by tutoring for the wrong card with Stoneforge Mystic. One could easily imagine other situatons in which fetching a Batterskull would be a better call than getting a sword or Jitte (such as when a player has the necessary mana). It doesn't seem horrible to me to put Batterskull as a one-of in your Stoneforge Mystic toolbox. It may not be a great card, but it seems like a viable option.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I like how the supporters for Batterskull get overly happy when their 'pet' card has shown some good result in ONE SCG event. Let's give it some time, maybe it's going to break the format or be more popularly played. Wait, nevermind, just say a bunch of Mental Missteps. I could care less about Batterskull than MM. I mean someone is going to play a Batterskull and wreck the matchups where it's favored, but for most parts, other decks are just going to roll over the decks packing Batterskull (High Tide, Storm, Tempo). I don't think it's fair to jump around when the equipment has done well in matchups where it already is win more, but hasn't proven itself in a whole class of other decks/matchups.

I like how the naysayers for Batterstkull has already been polishing their words. None of the supporters said Batterskull would warp the format, none of them attempted to claim it being remotely as good as Mental Misstep, none of them persuaded any white deck to give it a shot, even none of them claimed it ought to be in MD, let alone the first to be grabbed by SFM. The two top8 SFM decks incidentally have Batterskull, they are good in some matchups and mediocre in others. The metagame is becoming more controllish, making Batterskull even better. Batterskull has made a more than satisfactory debut in BoM5 and SCG Louisville and I do not put higher expectation on it for following events, well, because white is (arguably) the worst color in Legacy.


In the words of Mike Flores: there are no wrong threats. It worked because the support shell of the deck worked, not because Batterskull was 'great'. This isn't a good evaluation of threat quality. You could win with a Llanowar Elves attacking 20 times or a Progenitus twice...is that a fair evaluation? Answer for yourself.

You are half right. Batterskull is a worse threat than a long list of threats, such as Baneslayer, Ellspeth, Rhox War Monk. However, if you want to fetch any of the threat in the list by SFM, pray for future printings from WotC. The fetchable aspect of Batterskull is huge, even more important than being cheatable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What you have described does not suggest that Batterskull is a bad card. It was just bad in a particular situation and the player made a big mistake by tutoring for the wrong card with Stoneforge Mystic. One could easily imagine other situatons in which fetching a Batterskull would be a better call than getting a sword or Jitte (such as when a player has the necessary mana). It doesn't seem horrible to me to put Batterskull as a one-of in your Stoneforge Mystic toolbox. It may not be a great card, but it seems like a viable option.

In that situation, is it better than Argentum Armor?


I like how the naysayers for Batterstkull has already been polishing their words.

Indeed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJlL2vfXnJg)


and I can not put higher expectation on it for following events, well, because white is (arguably) the worst color in Legacy.

wut

[bruizar]

In that situation, is it better than Argentum Armor?

This just shows how you don't understand how important the living weapon aspect of Batterskull is.

[Koby]

Do it. This thread goes in my personal archive of mtglolz.

PS: For those that thought 5 mana was too much. Yesterday at SCG a Batterskull was blocked by a Silvergill adept and a Lord of Atlantis, killing germ, lord and adept. He then passed the turn and EOT bounced Batterskull / Replayed it for more beats. This was against Merfolk, a deck known for its combination of pressure / permission.

This scenario sounds no different than a SFM equiped with Sword of Fire/Ice attacking, killing the Lord of Atlantis, and drawing a card. final card counter: +2 SFM player.

I'm 100% certain that the deck with Equipment will beat the deck w/o Removal.

EDIT: and it doesn't require 8 mana reset either.

[Gheizen64]

White worse color in legacy?

As a red mage i'm crying in a corner :(

[Koby]

White worse color in legacy?

As a red mage i'm crying in a corner :(

Cards like Sulfuric Vortex and Everlasting Torment and Flames of the Blood hand exist you know.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This just shows how you don't understand how important the living weapon aspect of Batterskull is.

Now don't be snippy.

I understand it; in fact that's the point. If you have lots of mana, Argentum Armor is clearly the much better card. So the selling point on Batterskull is that if you get to untap with Stoneforge you can, for two mana, put a 4/4 lifelinker into play.

But 4/4s aren't particularly big in Legacy, especially when they cost four mana in total, even spread over two turns.

I mean it's worth running a Progenitus when you can't cast it because if you cheat it into play you should very often just win right and there. This doesn't seem to be true for Batterskull. Certainly it seems less reliable than SoFI and Jitte, and very probably SoLS and SoFF.

[Rune]

We saw how bad the batterskull was in the top 8 of the legacy yesterday at starcity games. Sure dude punted but if he would have just gotten sword or jitte he could have equipped his crusader and swung in for major damage/counters. Instead he was stuck with a 4/4 that got wrecked by tombstalker and no 5 mana to equip to the crusader to win the game.

I was even wondering, why doesn't he just equip to the crusader and own everything.. Oh wait it costs 5 mana

He didn't have Crusader in hand when he cast SFM, he drew it later. Batterskull held Tombstalker back for 2 turns until the TA player found a 2nd Tombstalker. If he had fetched SoFaI in that situation he would just have taken 10 damage from a TStalker before even being able to attack back with an equipped guy. The Deadguy Ale player didn't punt by fetching Batterskull, he punted by making a terrible attack later in the game. IIRC, board looked like this:

16 life (active player)
SFM, Batterskull, Mirran Crusader

vs

12 life
2x Tombstalker

He chose to attack with both Batterskull and Crusader, and then bounced the equipment back to his hand at the end of his opponent's turn and put it into play again on his own mainphase via SFM. If he had attacked with just the Crusader, the TA player would have to topdeck something to win. Instead 2 swings from the double TStalkers ended up winning... So, the card was actually insane in this situation, but the Batterskull player punted, so it didn't matter.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

He didn't have Crusader in hand when he cast SFM, he drew it later. Batterskull held Tombstalker back for 2 turns until the TA player found a 2nd Tombstalker. If he had fetched SoFaI in that situation he would just have taken 10 damage from a TStalker before even being able to attack back with an equipped guy. The Deadguy Ale player didn't punt by fetching Batterskull, he punted by making a terrible attack later in the game. IIRC, board looked like this:

16 life (active player)
SFM, Batterskull, Mirran Crusader

vs

12 life
2x Tombstalker

He chose to attack with both Batterskull and Crusader, and then bounced the equipment back to his hand at the end of his opponent's turn and put it into play again on his own mainphase via SFM. If he had attacked with just the Crusader, the TA player would have to topdeck something to win. Instead 2 swings from the double TStalkers ended up winning... So, the card was actually insane in this situation, but the Batterskull player punted, so it didn't matter.

Um.

Unless he had removal, Jitte, SoFI and SoLS would all have raced Tombstalker in that situation with a SFM in play to equip.

If you're playing around removal and have infinite mana, Batterskull is great. So is Wurmcalling. In the scenario where you don't have lots of mana open and need to win faster, Batterskull isn't particularly powerful.

[tsabo_tavoc]

White worse color in legacy?

As a red mage i'm crying in a corner :(

As a red mage, I am proud of Red Elemental Blast.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

White is clearly not the worst color in Legacy, and is a solid contender for second with the rise of Landstill.

[Gheizen64]

As a red mage, I am proud of Red Elemental Blast.

REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

[SpikeyMikey]

REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

As a Bant aggro player, I've been wrecked by REB out of Zoo on several occasions. Swinging in with a double exalted RWM only to have it REB'd makes me cry.

[SpikeyMikey]

Um.

Unless he had removal, Jitte, SoFI and SoLS would all have raced Tombstalker in that situation with a SFM in play to equip.

If you're playing around removal and have infinite mana, Batterskull is great. So is Wurmcalling. In the scenario where you don't have lots of mana open and need to win faster, Batterskull isn't particularly powerful.

This. 2 turns of SoLS beats would've been pretty devastating. I didn't see the game, but I'd have to imagine against anything packing Tombstalker, you've had creatures put into the yard, either through Hymn, Snuff Out, Dismember, GftT or whatever. Usually decks packing Tombstalker don't pack StP. So SoLS reduces stalker damage to 2/turn (a relatively insignificant clock) and gets you creatures back. Then when you drop Crusader, it gets really nuts, since you're dishing out 8 a turn and gaining 6 life. 14 point swings are good. 8 point swings (Batterskull) are passable, but again, RWM will usually do that without nearly as much work setting it up.

Although if he has 5 mana to bounce and replay and a Crusader on board with the opponent at 12, why wouldn't he just equip Crusader and swing for 12? Crusader has prot: TA to begin with. Was this Joe or Caleb that we're talking about?

[GGoober]

REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

Lol, sigg'd!

I will chime in and say that I don't doubt that Batterskull + SFM combo is weak. In fact, in the situatino that demands a fresh body for 2WW over 2 turns, it's ideal and very strong, however the same can be said for many other equipments e.g. Sword of Body and Mind. The benefit that Batterskull has over such other examples is because a vigilance lifelink 4/4 is in MOST situation better. Yet however, the very same principle applied to Batterskull v.s. Jitte will tell you that you would usually want to tutor up Jitte in most games because it's the best card in xyz matchup. Batterskull will shine in certain matchup, but the whole point boils down to: is it worth a slot in the 75? That is a question of picking equipments for metagame purposes.

However, the proponents who love Batterskull tend to want to justify that this card should be played in every, if not most SFM list. This is where the people who don't support Batterskull are chiming in: how often do you want this equipment over something like Jitte/SoFI/SoLS? (I would say that SoLS is one of the best swords against TA because it recurs the threats that got discarded/countered/destroyed, it also races Tombstalker at every point in the game)

Also, don't forget that the people against Batterskull in this thread were also not pleased with the proponents comparing this card to vintage bombs in vintage, or other legacy bombs in legacy of 'equivalent' mana cost.

[Offler]

Trust me or not this reminds me my early beginnings with Arcanis. He is walking Ancestral Recall with possibility to bounce. Ou yeah. Allmighty card... or not?

batterskull is not colored... batterskull costs 1 mana less for playing, bouncing, and its "splashable" in each color. it does not draw cards, but deals damage and heals wounds...

damnt it. I wish, I would never see another Sensei's Divining top...

[Koby]

This is where the people who don't support Batterskull are chiming in: how often do you want this equipment over something like Jitte/SoFI/SoLS? (I would say that SoLS is one of the best swords against TA because it recurs the threats that got discarded/countered/destroyed, it also races Tombstalker at every point in the game)


To be fair, I don't even consider SoFF, SoBM, and SoWP to be playable either. SFM decks can also play Mirran Crusader who mimics SoFF's protection, and being a double striker actually has more utility than the sword. More to the point, SoLS gives protection from 2 common removal colors, which SoFF does not. The remaining swords don't give you a good ability for the card, whereas SoFI and SoLS do. SoLS is indeed weaker, and I usually run in the SB against specific matchups (TA, Junk).

I could potentially see myself playing Batterskull in those same bad matchups where Attrition matters, but not typically. It requires too many active components to actually become useful: 3+ mana, protection from discard, SFM staying alive to cheat it into play. That's a tall order against decks that run rampant spot removal and mana disruption.

I certainly don't care about Batterskull against Merfolk/Goblins, that is for sure.

[GGoober]

Rukcus: precisely my point. I was saying if you can make an argument for Batterskull to be great in certain matchups, then the same principles can be applied to the weaker equipments (SoBM) because in those specific scenarios, SoBM/equipment-X is amazing.

Batterskull is for sure very dependent on having a SFM in play. If SFM is not in play, then you get a 2WW Vigilance lifelink that came in 2 turns late, and maybe being able to tap out 5 mana to equip a dude when your pseudo-warmonk gets removed. If you have SFM, sure it will eventually generate advantage to win you the game, but it is still fundamentally slow, and in those slow situations where it works, I can only imagine a Sword with relevant pro-colors going in and racing faster (since they can't remove/block it). The only situation where Batterskull is relevant is if you need a relevant extra body and you had a SFM in hand. Those situations are fairly narrow for most cases (if they're not then you're building a creature-light SFM deck like Cawblade and you shouldn't attribute the +++ to Batterskull because that's an analysis on deck design, not the inherent power of the card).

[CorpT]

Here's the thing people seem to be misunderstanding about Batterskull, and believe me, I was extremely skeptical at first.

Batterskull without SFM (7 mana - requiring 5 in one turn) is slower than SFM + Jitte (6 mana - requiring 2 mana increments) but, SFM + Jitte is slower than SFM + Batterskull (4 mana - requiring 2 mana increments).

There are games, specifically against Merfolk where you don't have time to set up a SFM, maybe another creature and a Jitte. In that situation, Batterskull absolutely shines. In those games where you do have time to set up with Jitte, Jitte is obviously better.

Here's the great part: you're running SFM, so you get to pick which you get. In a bind and way behind? Get Batterskull. Got time to set up with a Jitte? Get Jitte.

In a 3-4 SFM deck, I would whole-heartedly endorse Batterskull as one of the 3 equipments to run (with Jitte and SoFaI).

[Koby]

There are too many factors to categorically assert or deny that Batterskull is good. It depends on your colors (perhaps Islands?), the opponent's deck, which point in the match you're in, do you have access to enough mana, do you need a creature (Germ), etc.

Batterskull is certainly strong by its own merits. However, I don't think it is auto-include in every SFM deck, nor does every SFM deck need it.

[brianw712]

Here's the thing people seem to be misunderstanding about Batterskull, and believe me, I was extremely skeptical at first.

Batterskull without SFM (7 mana - requiring 5 in one turn) is slower than SFM + Jitte (6 mana - requiring 2 mana increments) but, SFM + Jitte is slower than SFM + Batterskull (4 mana - requiring 2 mana increments).

There are games, specifically against Merfolk where you don't have time to set up a SFM, maybe another creature and a Jitte. In that situation, Batterskull absolutely shines. In those games where you do have time to set up with Jitte, Jitte is obviously better.

Here's the great part: you're running SFM, so you get to pick which you get. In a bind and way behind? Get Batterskull. Got time to set up with a Jitte? Get Jitte.

In a 3-4 SFM deck, I would whole-heartedly endorse Batterskull as one of the 3 equipments to run (with Jitte and SoFaI).

This. SFM into Jitte is extremely slow. Using up six mana to equip Jitte, only to have it nullified for one mana, can lose the game for you. Add that to the fact that Jitte usually takes two combats to really get going, and you can see why Batterskull can be better in a lot of tempo-oriented matches: it instantly pushes the race in your favor. I think Merfolk is probably the best example of this; against two lords or Kira, SoFI doesn't do anything, and Jitte needs three counters to do anything, and by then you're probably dead.

If you cast SFM into Batterskull, and the opponent STPs your SFM, it's only a one-mana tempo loss, and you still have the Batterskull to cast later on if it gets to that (not common, but not too unlikely either, especially if you run guys like Noble and Knight). If they STP the Germ token, it's a three-mana tempo less, still much better than the five-mana tempo loss of fetching Jitte.

[Grollub]

Easy, chief, you're a bit quick on the draw there. Try to relax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyl5DlrsU90) and think of baseball.
You might be right, my post was intended as a friendly tongue in cheek stab at the people only evaluating cards in the extrenum cases. Apologies around if I came off aggressive/as a mister know-it-all.

Oh, I'm from Europe - we only think about football. ;-)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, but probably that heathen version of football where you kick a ball with your foot.

@Brian: I fail to see how having Batterskull nullified for one mana is better than Jitte. In the case of Jitte, after all, you can re-equip for two measly mana; whereas with Batterskull, you need to pay five fucking mana get it online again.

I mean also if they have an StP, they can just kill Mystic before you untap with it and suddenly Batterskull is sitting in your hand accomplishing jack squat for the rest of the game.

[nwong]

This. SFM into Jitte is extremely slow. Using up six mana to equip Jitte, only to have it nullified for one mana, can lose the game for you. Add that to the fact that Jitte usually takes two combats to really get going, and you can see why Batterskull can be better in a lot of tempo-oriented matches: it instantly pushes the race in your favor. I think Merfolk is probably the best example of this; against two lords or Kira, SoFI doesn't do anything, and Jitte needs three counters to do anything, and by then you're probably dead.

If you cast SFM into Batterskull, and the opponent STPs your SFM, it's only a one-mana tempo loss, and you still have the Batterskull to cast later on if it gets to that (not common, but not too unlikely either, especially if you run guys like Noble and Knight). If they STP the Germ token, it's a three-mana tempo less, still much better than the five-mana tempo loss of fetching Jitte.

Why would you fetch jitte in the first place? You could just search up SoFaI. The shock might not kill a lord yet, but assuming you're in white, you have StP/PtE. Just hold it back and threaten to block and kill a lord if they do attack.

[Koby]

Why would you fetch jitte in the first place? You could just search up SoFaI. The shock might not kill a lord yet, but assuming you're in white, you have StP/PtE. Just hold it back and threaten to block and kill a lord if they do attack.

In the case of Bant, you would try to kill the lord with the removal, then attempt to trigger the Sword, killing the other. Also, aside from Deadguy Ale, all the SFM also play Karakas and ways to find it - nullifying Kira. Again, this is an exercise in hypotheticals. There are many permutations of "what-ifs" that could pose innumerable problems for either deck. The best equipment at the time is almost always situational on the board state, but Jitte and SoFI typically cover most cases.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean it really bears stressing that the whole reason you play equipment is because it's resilient to removal. Someone kills your Sword-bearing dude and you put it on another dude. Hell, that's what makes SFM so good in particular; she carries a Sword so your useful dudes can be backup.

Batterskull seems to have missed this whole concept, at least in the context of Legacy's mana curves. Just re-equipping that mother fucker costs more than dropping a Jace or Natural Order, for God's sake.

[SpikeyMikey]

Here's the great part: you're running SFM, so you get to pick which you get. In a bind and way behind? Get Batterskull. Got time to set up with a Jitte? Get Jitte.

In a 3-4 SFM deck, I would whole-heartedly endorse Batterskull as one of the 3 equipments to run (with Jitte and SoFaI).

Except here's the other, not-so-great part. 12% of your opening hands are going to include that singleton Batterskull (11.66 repeating % to be exact). If you run 4 Stoneforge Mystics, 60% of those hands (60.05%) will not have an SFM, leaving Batterskull as a dead card. If you run 3 SFM's, 68% (68.49%) of those hands fail to have an SFM. That means you can tack roughly 7-8% on to your mulligan rate, depending on how keepable you think a hand with no Mystic but with BS is going to be.

So unless you expect Batterskull to be a major contributor in more than 7-8% of your games, it's shitty EV to run it. And even then, you have to balance it's EV to the EV of something like SoLS or more off the wall things like Basilisk Collar (which I run with 2 SFM's in my Zoo deck on Workstation).

[GGoober]

This. SFM into Jitte is extremely slow. Using up six mana to equip Jitte, only to have it nullified for one mana, can lose the game for you. Add that to the fact that Jitte usually takes two combats to really get going, and you can see why Batterskull can be better in a lot of tempo-oriented matches: it instantly pushes the race in your favor. I think Merfolk is probably the best example of this; against two lords or Kira, SoFI doesn't do anything, and Jitte needs three counters to do anything, and by then you're probably dead.

If you cast SFM into Batterskull, and the opponent STPs your SFM, it's only a one-mana tempo loss, and you still have the Batterskull to cast later on if it gets to that (not common, but not too unlikely either, especially if you run guys like Noble and Knight). If they STP the Germ token, it's a three-mana tempo less, still much better than the five-mana tempo loss of fetching Jitte.


Wow you italized 'extremely'. Sometimes I feel that Legacy players have played with too many broken cards that they're sick of them and are inclined to think that every other good card going to be broken. Jitte is mana-inefficient? You know that equipment single-handedly win games in so many ways it's not close to being funny (against Dredge/Goblins/Merfolks/aggro decks/comb/control).

The only part where Batterskull has a slight edge over Jitte is being mana-efficient in the INITIAL setup to getting an equipment on a creature by going through the tutorchain and playing it off Mystic then equipping, but there are a TON of other factors you don't consider:

What if Mystic gets plowed EOT? What if Mystic/Batterskull gets stifled? These are much more dead cards than an 'extremely' slow situation you're putting here. Your analysis doesn't take into consideration what Batterskull actuallyer does, and what Jitte does. Your analysis simply goes by: mana cost efficiency for equipment equipped onto a creature. You ignore the other aspects on whether your SFM sticks, what happens post-equipping for both Batterskull/Jitte, whether a 4/4 Vigilance lifelink is more valuable than accumulating charge counters. Let me point this out to you.

Batterskull's unique ability is that with a Mystic in play and surviving, you get a 4/4 Vigiliance lifelink for 1W, and at any point, you can generate 1/1 germ tokens for 4W.

Jitte's unique ability is that if it's in play, you pay 2 to equip it to any dude to accumulate Jitte counters, which flexibly does 3 things that everyone knows.

Now, go analyze your statement with my two points and judge for yourself, which is more valuable:
Having conditional Mystic in play to get at best a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink that has the potential to put a 1/1 token in play for 4W, or an equipment that gets you 2 counters that does 3 things when you pay the equip cost and connect the damage.


....

[brianw712]

@Brian: I fail to see how having Batterskull nullified for one mana is better than Jitte. In the case of Jitte, after all, you can re-equip for two measly mana; whereas with Batterskull, you need to pay five fucking mana get it online again.

I mean also if they have an StP, they can just kill Mystic before you untap with it and suddenly Batterskull is sitting in your hand accomplishing jack squat for the rest of the game.

The point is, even though you can re-equip Jitte for two mana, you have to be not dead by then. I mean, you just spent six fucking mana doing absolutely nothing. Sure, if you're not in imminent peril, fetch the Jitte. But sometimes you are, and Jitte/SoFaI are likely to be too slow to save you.



Batterskull seems to have missed this whole concept, at least in the context of Legacy's mana curves. Just re-equipping that mother fucker costs more than dropping a Jace or Natural Order, for God's sake.

This is exactly the mindset that made Coralhelm Commander so underrated when it came out. Sure, he kinda just sits there looking stupid if you have a three-drop, but guess what? He's levelling for four and bashing next turn. So what if Natural Order costs the same mana investment? You didn't have Natural Order (or at least you shouldn't have since you're playing Merfolk), just be thankful you had something else to spend your mana on. Same goes for Batterskull: If you've got other, better stuff to do, by all means do it, but you don't always have better stuff to do. And if you don't, well, a recurring 4/4 lifelinker is pretty good in the meantime.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Coralhelm costs 2 to drop and is a bear. You can also make him a beast on layaway. You have to pay five all at once for Batterskull to do anything at all if they kill your Stoneforge or you don't drop it, which means it does absolutely nothing for all intents and purposes in the presence of removal. And if they don't have removal, Jitte is pretty much just the better card because you get more versatility and actual removal out of it.

So basically there are no general scenarios where Batterskull is better. There are niche situations which mostly involve you having a ton of mana open. Which makes it really super amusing that you're acting like Jitte is the expensive card in this lineup.

I mean I think there's zero doubt that if Coralhelm's only ability was "4: ~this~ becomes a 4/4 flyer", then it wouldn't see play.

You basically want to act like mana broken up into segments is the same as mana spent all once, except it's not which is why cards like Top, Coralhelm and equipment generally are good, and five mana equipment isn't.

[CorpT]

Coralhelm costs 2 to drop and is a bear. You can also make him a beast on layaway. You have to pay five all at once for Batterskull to do anything at all if they kill your Stoneforge or you don't drop it, which means it does absolutely nothing for all intents and purposes in the presence of removal. And if they don't have removal, Jitte is pretty much just the better card because you get more versatility and actual removal out of it.

So basically there are no general scenarios where Batterskull is better. There are niche situations which mostly involve you having a ton of mana open. Which makes it really super amusing that you're acting like Jitte is the expensive card in this lineup.

I mean I think there's zero doubt that if Coralhelm's only ability was "4: ~this~ becomes a 4/4 flyer", then it wouldn't see play.

You basically want to act like mana broken up into segments is the same as mana spent all once, except it's not which is why cards like Top, Coralhelm and equipment generally are good, and five mana equipment isn't.

I think we get it. You hate Batterskull and will never play with it.

I used to think that it was too cute of a combo and too reliant on SFM. Then I tested with it and saw how many times I fetched it up. Or how many times I didn't care that it was in my opening hand. Or how many times I didn't mulligan because I didn't have 2 Jittes in my opening hand. Or how many times I bounced and replayed him with and without SFM.

[brianw712]

The only part where Batterskull has a slight edge over Jitte is being mana-efficient in the INITIAL setup to getting an equipment on a creature by going through the tutorchain and playing it off Mystic then equipping, but there are a TON of other factors you don't consider:

I'd like to emphasize that I'm not saying Batterskull is better than Jitte in most situations, just in racing situations where you're about to die, or at least close enough where Jitte is too slow.

What if Mystic gets plowed EOT?...[/QUOTE]

I actually did talk about this. Again, consider that it's a racing situation. If Mystic gets Plowed EOT for getting Batterskull, that's better than your equipped creature getting Plowed after a six-mana investment while Tarmogoyfs etc. eat you.


What if Mystic/Batterskull gets stifled?

There are several cases to consider with this statement:

1. Mystic's ETB trigger gets stifled. Nothing really important here, you're not fetching any equipment, no comparison can be made.

2. Mystic's cheat ability gets stifled. Turns Jitte into 8 mana, Batterskull into 6. Well, if you're in a racing situation, you're probably dead either way, but less likely with Batterskull.

3. Batterskull's ETB trigger gets stifled. This is pretty bad. The best you can really do here is bounce Batterskull and try again, but by then you're probably dead.

4. Jitte's combat damage trigger gets stifled. Adds another turn to Jitte's payoff. May also allow your opponent to kill you in the meantime.

Through this analysis, I still think Batterskull is a little better in a racing situation, although it definitely evens it out, since Stifle hits Jitte less hard than Batterskull (although it hits both pretty hard). But Stifle is seeing less and less play with Mental Misstep in the format, so this shouldn't come up that often.


Batterskull's unique ability is that with a Mystic in play and surviving, you get a 4/4 Vigiliance lifelink for 1W, and at any point, you can generate 1/1 germ tokens for 4W.

Minor point, but you can generate 4/4 germ tokens for 4W.


Now, go analyze your statement with my two points and judge for yourself, which is more valuable:
Having conditional Mystic in play to get at best a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink that has the potential to put a 1/1 token in play for 4W, or an equipment that gets you 2 counters that does 3 things when you pay the equip cost and connect the damage.

Well, what do you care about in a racing situation? Mainly one thing: your life total, which can be preserved through direct life gain or by killing creatures. Now, say you connect Jitte, possibly having to tap a potential blocker to do so. You get two counters. That gets you either -2/-2 on an opponent's creature, or 4 life. Seems OK. Say you effectively cheat Batterskull into play, with two mana less. You get 4 life and an extra 4/4 blocker, which threatens another +4 life upon blocking. Seems much better. This is what I meant when I said that Jitte really takes two swings to get going; if they didn't kill you on the first swing after Jitte connected, then Jitte will probably take over the game. But sometimes they will be able to kill you the turn after Jitte connected, or before, and it's those times that you want Batterskull.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The situation where you're about to die but have time to untap with Mystic seems insanely niche. I mean if you have mana, Basilisk Collar is better in that situation since you can slap it on your Mystic immediately and kill a Knight instead of chumping a turn later, but Basilisk Collar has only seen play recently with Lavamancer.


I think we get it. You hate Batterskull and will never play with it.

I used to think that it was too cute of a combo and too reliant on SFM. Then I tested with it and saw how many times I fetched it up. Or how many times I didn't care that it was in my opening hand. Or how many times I didn't mulligan because I didn't have 2 Jittes in my opening hand. Or how many times I bounced and replayed him with and without SFM.

You may have noticed that there is no anime angel with giant boobs on the banner here. There are Legacy cards because that's what this forum is about, serious discussion of the Legacy format and the cards and strategies therein.

All opinions aren't equal and "just test it" isn't a sufficient argument for anything.

[CorpT]

You may have noticed that there is no anime angel with giant boobs on the banner here. There are Legacy cards because that's what this forum is about, serious discussion of the Legacy format and the cards and strategies therein.

All opinions aren't equal and "just test it" isn't a sufficient argument for anything.

There were 7 copies of SFM between 2 decks in the last SCG5k. I think she has qualified as Legacy playable.

Keep telling yourself you can theorycraft your way to wins. I'll keep testing instead.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There were 7 copies of SFM between 2 decks in the last SCG5k. I think she has qualified as Legacy playable.

Keep telling yourself you can theorycraft your way to wins. I'll keep testing instead.

First of all, that's a terrible sampling to argue for a card's validity, certainly a card that's also heavily played in Standard at the moment. I mean Goblins put up way better numbers in January.

Secondly, no one is arguing about SFM. In fact I advocated for SFM way before it was cool. The card being knocked itt is Batterskull, as the title might suggest to you, not Mystic.

Mystic is great, she's just no reason to run cards that are terrible without her when the ones that are pretty much always good do the job as well or better.

[Koby]

This thread would be better served by [SCD] Stoneforge Mystic, seeing that all the argument hinge on that card being played.

Batterskull, however, is a marginal card that only becomes relevant with SFM - and therein lies the argument against it.

Feel free to open up a thread "[Synergy] Batterskull + enablers."

</sarcasm... kinda

[overpowered]

I am of the school "The shell is good so the card performs well."

That being said, I still believe that it is significantly better than a 1/1 Llanowar Elf attacking every turn.

The reusability on the card is fantastic. Let them deal with the germ. Bounce and replay. You just 1 for 0'd them. It's the same as the old "Eternal Dragon". Card was bad, but it was infinitely recurring unless StoP'd. This card is infinitely recurring even after being StoP'd.

What deals with this? KGrip, Counterspell...
QPridemage doesn't do anything once you have 3 mana open.

It's a strong control creature, much like the way Morphling was, without requiring you to actually protect the creature. You just need to protect the artifact. Fortunately, artifact hate isn't maindecked many times. If it is, it's usually counterable.

It's a strong card, but only because it fits a niche.

[phonics]

the bounce and replay is mega mana intensive and it seems like the bounce and replay would just let your opponent timewalk once or twice. maybe if it was a d&t or some build not running green, since i would probably run something more flexible tutor like goyf/zenith. I think it can be a strong card in the late game from recurring, but it is a weaker card in the earlier game since it relies so heavily on sfm.

Capitalization is required when posting here. Please use it in the future. Thanks. -zilla

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am of the school "The shell is good so the card performs well."

That being said, I still believe that it is significantly better than a 1/1 Llanowar Elf attacking every turn.

The reusability on the card is fantastic. Let them deal with the germ. Bounce and replay. You just 1 for 0'd them. It's the same as the old "Eternal Dragon". Card was bad, but it was infinitely recurring unless StoP'd. This card is infinitely recurring even after being StoP'd.

What deals with this? KGrip, Counterspell...
QPridemage doesn't do anything once you have 3 mana open.

It's a strong control creature, much like the way Morphling was, without requiring you to actually protect the creature. You just need to protect the artifact. Fortunately, artifact hate isn't maindecked many times. If it is, it's usually counterable.

It's a strong card, but only because it fits a niche.

Not having recursion against Shackles, Jace and Force seems worse than not having recursion against StP. Especially since Eternal Dragon only saw play because it could turn into a Tundra early on, utility that Batterskull doesn't offer. And yet despite being much better for its control role, Eternal Dragon isn't played at all. What does this tell us?

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, but probably that heathen version of football where you kick a ball with your foot.

@Brian: I fail to see how having Batterskull nullified for one mana is better than Jitte. In the case of Jitte, after all, you can re-equip for two measly mana; whereas with Batterskull, you need to pay five fucking mana get it online again.

I mean also if they have an StP, they can just kill Mystic before you untap with it and suddenly Batterskull is sitting in your hand accomplishing jack squat for the rest of the game.

If opponents are removing SFM in response to tutoring for Batterskull, that's a win, win scenario for us because we're drawing fire away from Tarmogoyf and gaining card advantage and inevitability in Batterskull being a late game threat. The comparisons to Natural Order and Jace, the Mind Sculpter are non-sensical, Natural Order -> Progentius requires a dedicated, 4cc tutor and green creature in order to resolve a "game winning" threat, but the problem is that Natural Order is a conditional, one dimentional tutor while SFM is a multi-layered threat by either fetching traditional equipment or a new age Morphling. For a one card investment, SFM has greater versatility and greater value in multiples where Natural Order requires you to sacrifice 4 to 5 cards. Granted, Batterskull costs you one Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but frankly both cards beat control handedly and the added utility of Batterskull spread across 4 SFM is probably worth it.

Frankly, if 1xBatterskull let's SFM draw removal and gives us a mid/late game threat, I think it's worth it in a Hawk/Sword shell etc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If opponents are removing SFM in response to tutoring for Batterskull, that's a win, win scenario for us because we're drawing fire away from Tarmogoyf and gaining card advantage and inevitability in Batterskull being a late game threat. The comparisons to Natural Order and Jace, the Mind Sculpter are non-sensical, Natural Order -> Progentius requires a dedicated, 4cc tutor and green creature in order to resolve a "game winning" threat, but the problem is that Natural Order is a conditional, one dimentional tutor while SFM is a multi-layered threat by either fetching traditional equipment or a new age Morphling. For a one card investment, SFM has greater versatility and greater value in multiples where Natural Order requires you to sacrifice 4 to 5 cards. Granted, Batterskull costs you one Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but frankly both cards beat control handedly and the added utility of Batterskull spread across 4 SFM is probably worth it.

Frankly, if 1xBatterskull let's SFM draw removal and gives us a mid/late game threat, I think it's worth it in a Hawk/Sword shell etc.

"Inevitability" is an interesting way to describe a super-expensive spell being stranded in your hand.

One might just cut to the chase and play Gigapede.

The problem is, as Keynes observed, that taking the long view is usually the wrong view to take, because in the long view we're already dead.

I also notice that you are, and not as the first such offender, making a confusion of "SFM is a good card" with "Batterskull is a good card".

[frolll]

I also notice that you are, and not as the first such offender, making a confusion of "SFM is a good card" with "Batterskull is a good card".

This man speaketh the truth. We can now rest this case, and all join hands - SFM is goed, Batterskull isn't.

Geee I, for one, wasn't expecting all that turmoil about one fuckin stupid Mythic rare that gets shafted anyway by any deck killing before turn 3/4 (like, any combo deck, really). Legacy has truly become a strange format indeed, where you can argue for a 5 CCM equipment being good while TES, ANT, Reanimator or Dredge (and Belcher, but hey) will just have you dead before you ramp up to 5 mana. Weird times... (plus, everything has already been said on this subject for, at least, 5 pages. STFU folks).

[bruizar]

I also notice that you are, and not as the first such offender, making a confusion of "SFM is a good card" with "Batterskull is a good card".

SFM is only as good as the equiment you run with it.

I don't mind having a Batterskull drawn in my hand naturally. It lets me resolve an SFM that can tutor for a sword. SFM will stay alive and I get to EOT Sneak batterskull, my turn, sneak sword, equip sword, hit for a lotta damage + lifelink

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

SFM is only as good as the equiment you run with it.

I agree. This is why I would want to run Jitte and SoFI with it, and then maybe a SoLS, Basilisk Collar, or Grafted Wargear or SoFF depending on what exactly I wanted to do and what I expected to run up against.

And I would leave my Batterskulls next to Argentum Armor and Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang in my Godo, Bandit Warlord EDH deck.


I don't mind having a Batterskull drawn in my hand naturally. It lets me resolve an SFM

No it doesn't.


This man speaketh the truth. We can now rest this case, and all join hands - SFM is goed, Batterskull isn't.

Geee I, for one, wasn't expecting all that turmoil about one fuckin stupid Mythic rare that gets shafted anyway by any deck killing before turn 3/4 (like, any combo deck, really). Legacy has truly become a strange format indeed, where you can argue for a 5 CCM equipment being good while TES, ANT, Reanimator or Dredge (and Belcher, but hey) will just have you dead before you ramp up to 5 mana. Weird times... (plus, everything has already been said on this subject for, at least, 5 pages. STFU folks).

I think it was inevitable with the printing of SFM that the topic would come up of, "Is SFM so good that it somehow makes running cards that are objectively bad in Legacy worthwhile because she can cheat them into play?" And of course the answer is, "No," but sometimes these things have to be thrashed out at great length for some reason which defies a non-recursive explanation.

[DragoFireheart]

If I'm paying 5 fucking mana all at once for one spell, it better win me the god damn game on the spot or damn near it.

What else can I pay 5 mana for all in one turn?

Ad Nauseam

Siege-Gang Commander (Goblin Tribal specific) - Hell, they like to cheat him into play and not pay for him at times. Or make him cheaper.

Ok, so not too many things. How about 4 mana?

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Natural Order
Humility
Moat

Hmmm, every one of those drastically alters the game FAR more than batterskull... yet cost less.

But wait, we are cheating Batterskull into play, right? Well, not always. What happens if they kill the SFM? Or if you don't get Stoneforge? Then Batterskull is junk sitting in your hand. With other equipment, you can still cast it and then equip it later. But 5 mana to play is quite costly, and having to pay another 5 to equip onto something else seems like setting yourself up for failure. There is a reason that most of the competitive decks keep their mana curve low.

No. Without it proving itself first, no.

[bruizar]

"I think it was inevitable with the printing of SFM that the topic would come up of, "Is SFM so good that it somehow makes running cards that are objectively bad in Legacy worthwhile because she can cheat them into play?" And of course the answer is, "No," but sometimes these things have to be thrashed out at great length for some reason which defies a non-recursive explanation."

*Progenitus is objectively bad in legacy if you plan on paying its mana cost.

*The only deck that actually pays for Emrakul is Turboeldrazi which has 60 cards dedicated to make this happen.

*No deck in Vintage that plays Blightsteel Colossus can actually cast it

Still, these cards are very defining to eternal magic.

*Tinker has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Blightsteel Colossus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Natural Order has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Progenitus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Show and Tell/Eureka/Sneak Attack have no built in mechanism that allow you to tutor up your Show and Tell target

*Reanimate doesn't have a mechanism to get a creature in the graveyard

Stoneforge Mystic is the only card that can: 1) Tutor up and cheat into play the tutored card 2) Cheat the target into play when it's already stranded in your hand. This is significantly better than having to rely on cantrips to get your dead-card back in your deck.

I leave it at this though. Be my guest, don't play Batterskull. Agree to disagree with me all you want but the facts are in favor of Batterskull, not against it.

@ Everyone going on about paying 5 mana to play Batterskull, please don't be a hypocrit and stop playing this bad 5 mana counterspell named Force of Will. I mean, by the time you have 5 mana, the threats you wanted to counter are already in play... /sarcasm

[nwong]

"I think it was inevitable with the printing of SFM that the topic would come up of, "Is SFM so good that it somehow makes running cards that are objectively bad in Legacy worthwhile because she can cheat them into play?" And of course the answer is, "No," but sometimes these things have to be thrashed out at great length for some reason which defies a non-recursive explanation."

*Progenitus is objectively bad in legacy if you plan on paying its mana cost.

*The only deck that actually pays for Emrakul is Turboeldrazi which has 60 cards dedicated to make this happen.

*No deck in Vintage that plays Blightsteel Colossus can actually cast it

Still, these cards are very defining to eternal magic.

*Tinker has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Blightsteel Colossus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Natural Order has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Progenitus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Show and Tell/Eureka/Sneak Attack have no built in mechanism that allow you to tutor up your Show and Tell target

*Reanimate doesn't have a mechanism to get a creature in the graveyard

Stoneforge Mystic is the only card that can: 1) Tutor up and cheat into play the tutored card 2) Cheat the target into play when it's already stranded in your hand. This is significantly better than having to rely on cantrips to get your dead-card back in your deck.

I leave it at this though. Be my guest, don't play Batterskull. Agree to disagree with me all you want but the facts are in favor of Batterskull, not against it.

@ Everyone going on about paying 5 mana to play Batterskull, please don't be a hypocrit and stop playing this bad 5 mana counterspell named Force of Will. I mean, by the time you have 5 mana, the threats you wanted to counter are already in play... /sarcasm

Why are you trying to compare Batterskull with cards that win the game? Sure those cards are cheated into play and so is Batterskull, but that's where the comparison ends. Why do you think nobody mentions the fact that you need to go through hoops to get Prog or Emmy into play.

It's cos you win the fucking game after you do. Batterskull doesn't win on the spot, so talking about its prohibitive mana cost is far more relevant. Because your mystic WILL get removed, you WILL get stranded without 5 mana, and there WILL be many games where it'll be worse than Jitte/SoFaI/SoLaS.

[SpikeyMikey]

@ Everyone going on about paying 5 mana to play Batterskull, please don't be a hypocrit and stop playing this bad 5 mana counterspell named Force of Will. I mean, by the time you have 5 mana, the threats you wanted to counter are already in play... /sarcasm

So you're comparing a hard counter with a 0 mana alternative casting cost with a marginal threat (that effectively cantrips) with a 2WW alternative casting cost? That's kind of apples to oranges.

This is the problem Bruizar. Your analogies suck. And to be fair, that tends to be true of most analogies, no two situations mirror each other exactly. But your analogies REALLY suck, because while you can see what cards do, you don't understand why what they do is important. And while I'm singling you out right now, it's an affliction that even the best Magic players/builders suffer from sometimes. I totally missed the bus on Mind's Desire and the storm mechanic in general.

What makes Natural Order and Tinker good isn't that they cheat costs. Elvish Piper cheats costs and it blows dick. People play Show and Tell over Elvish Piper, despite the fact that Piper doesn't let your opponent drop their own Emrakul or a Karakas into play. That is to say, Piper gives you a better effect than SnT. But it's two turns slower and hinges on keeping a creature in play for at least a turn, a questionable proposition in Legacy to be sure. The fact that you can shave a mana off the cost of Batterskull and split it over two turns does not make any comparison between SFM->Batterskull and NO->Pro relevant. It's the scope of Natural Order's cheat that makes it relevant in Legacy. It'd be like saying that Coercion is good in Legacy because Thoughtseize is good in Legacy, and Coercion hits more targets (lands) and doesn't cost life. It ignores what makes Thoughtseize good (its speed) and focuses on what's irrelevant (stronger discard spell). Or comparing Rogue Elephant to Grim Lavamancer. Elephant is a bigger threat for the cost. Lavamancer can conditionally do 2 a turn, Elephant is 3 a turn. They're both the same speed so Elephant must be better. But Lavamancer doesn't see play for its damage potential, it sees play because it gives a measure of control/utility to aggressive decks without completely sacrificing aggressive ability. The comparison of size is irrelevant because it ignores what makes Lavamancer good (its removal capabilities) and focuses on what's irrelevant (more gross damage).

[DragoFireheart]

[I]
@ Everyone going on about paying 5 mana to play Batterskull, please don't be a hypocrit and stop playing this bad 5 mana counterspell named Force of Will. I mean, by the time you have 5 mana, the threats you wanted to counter are already in play... /sarcasm

Stoneforge does not cheat the big POS equipment into play the turn you cast it. When I cast Natural Order, I get my Progenitus that turn. When I cast Ad Nausiem, I get to win that turn. When I cast Jace, I get to start his awesome effects that turn. When I cast Humility, it effects THAT turn.

Stoneforge doesn not do anything the turn it comes into play, making it easy to be killed. Furthermore, when Batterskull does get cheated into play, it too MUST wait around before it can attack. Meanwhile, I drew half my deck with Ad Nausiem, or I'm beating your face with a 10/10 Hydra Avatar, Or I'm Brainstorming into an answer with Jace. Or I could just bounce the token just made.

[frolll]

Does anyone still plays removal in this fuckin rubbish format ? I mean, almost every goddamn removal ever printed gets rid of a white 1/2 - since SFM don't have Haste, you can't cheat your overhyped and too-much-costly equipment into play the turn you tutor for it. For the sake of it, isn't DISCARD played ? Isn't fuckin STIFLE played ? You can also Stifle the Equip (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Stfile can stop somehow Batterskull from being 4/4 when it comes into play (don't dare say battlefield, it's Eternal Magic, plus Battlefield sounds way too much like a change for the young kids picking up the game, just like "dies" (stupid WotC) introduced in M2012 ><°)). As far as removal goes, isn't Artifact removal played ? I heard Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip are kinda good card. Heck, even Beast Within makes your super 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink Germ into a 3/3 Beast which gets totally pwnt by REPEAL.

Not to sound overly reactive/bitchy/aggro, but all of your so-called "facts" or "arguments" bruizar are almost as valid as me pretending I'm the motherfucking Queen Victoria. And a ts. Or just that Victoria was a ts. By the time your creature attacks, it's turn 3. Against combo decks, you're really likely to be dead. Agains't other aggro deck, well, if they don't run removal you got the edge. Against control, they prolly just countered your SFM or are planning to exile/kill it or your germ. Really, SFM is good, but it must gets something that you'd be able to play... Anyway, it has been long established that you're quite the troll, and that even facing rational explanations (given by a lot of Sourcers), exemples and facts, you are constantly denying that Batterskull is NOT a great LEGACY cards. Even worse, you exhibit a mauvaise foi that is akin to politician-level bullshit, and all you're saying is basically : "IM RITE U GUYS BAED IM RITE IM RITE U NOT RITE" + random gibberish or "arguments" so fallacious that we could have sophists back just in order to fight on the same grounds with you. You, sir, are unable to understand, or so it seems, some very basic concepts of this game, of this format... Like a 5CCM 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink is NOT a good card, even if you can cheat it into play by turn 3 (OH LORD HE'S GONNA ATTACK ME WITH IT ON TURN 4 !!!!!!!!!1!!!1) because for a significant chunk of decks a turn 3 KILL is the objective. Hell, a random Qasali Pridemage from Zoo >>> your so super duper derp derp card.
But since you seem impervious to Reason or any thoughts going against yours, so here you go, polluting Source with your totally batshit insane "arguments" for a card that sees play only with a certain other card, already good by herself... At least you could have disguised your talk under the assumption that SFM is soooooo good (like Standard good) that it should be run into more decks, and then, that SFM could enable Batterskull to become a somewhat reasonnable fringe md choice in aggro metagames.

So, you officially made me pause into my works, and just for that I'll be thankful.

You know what : Natural Order is not a 2CCM card (Spell Snare), is not a creature (removal), can be casted by turn 3. Show and Tell is a sorcery, so kinda the same (it drops Emrakul just fine you know, no need to hardcast it). Sneak Attack is more fragile, but still it's no creature. As far as Vintage goes, I've seen my fair share of hardcasted robots (mostly Titans, but hey) after a big drain, or a lot of fast mana, or just in workshops.dec. etc etc etc
You're demonstrating (in a bad way) that Stoneforge Mystic is a good card. Point taken, point given, point OBVIOUS for everyone (I think) since some times already. The fact that SFM is a good card, does it make that every fuckin equipment ever printed is good ? NO. It's as simple as that. You should re-read IBA posts - the man knows what he's saying.
I cannot help myself but be amazed by your capacity to be unable to understand that every equipment isn't the stone cold nuts. And your unability to understand properly that 5 mana is a fucking LOT in Legacy, and spells that come with this hefty mana cost are better have a REAL effect on the game, not just be a goddamn creature, no matter how strong it is (Keldotha Forgemaster excepted).

So, this is it. I will most likely be moderated, or flamed, but I couldn't care less. Go ahead and stay in your mindset so closed that you're totally impervious to anything anyone says that dismiss your opinion - after all, doxa >>> reason, since you're clearly a Sophist, and a quite amazing one.

Must return to work. Hope you, bruizar, will learn to listen to others and accept their views, someday ; questionning oneself also is important, and in Magic, if it's impossible for you to rethink about something (like pick order in draft or how to evaluate cards in a sealed pool), then you're doing it wrong. Sticking in a so stubborn way like yours to an opinion or any idea is NOT what I call being a rationnal person, or being an adult actually. No offence meant.



What makes Natural Order and Tinker good isn't that they cheat costs. Elvish Piper cheats costs and it blows dick. People play Show and Tell over Elvish Piper, despite the fact that Piper doesn't let your opponent drop their own Emrakul or a Karakas into play. That is to say, Piper gives you a better effect than SnT. But it's two turns slower and hinges on keeping a creature in play for at least a turn, a questionable proposition in Legacy to be sure. The fact that you can shave a mana off the cost of Batterskull and split it over two turns does not make any comparison between SFM->Batterskull and NO->Pro relevant. It's the scope of Natural Order's cheat that makes it relevant in Legacy. It'd be like saying that Coercion is good in Legacy because Thoughtseize is good in Legacy, and Coercion hits more targets (lands) and doesn't cost life. It ignores what makes Thoughtseize good (its speed) and focuses on what's irrelevant (stronger discard spell). Or comparing Rogue Elephant to Grim Lavamancer. Elephant is a bigger threat for the cost. Lavamancer can conditionally do 2 a turn, Elephant is 3 a turn. They're both the same speed so Elephant must be better. But Lavamancer doesn't see play for its damage potential, it sees play because it gives a measure of control/utility to aggressive decks without completely sacrificing aggressive ability. The comparison of size is irrelevant because it ignores what makes Lavamancer good (its removal capabilities) and focuses on what's irrelevant (more gross damage).

GOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDD POST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[honestabe]

There's a Uwr list going around RI that focuses on just getting Stoneforge and pumping out a quick Batterskull. I know it sounds awful, and it looks terrible on paper, but it's actually pretty solid. Last Saturday was a TCG invitational qualifier, and the top 2 split, each playing the deck. An early batterskull doesn't do too much against control, but it puts them on a decent clock. But where Batterskull really shines is the aggro matchup. The list runs not only batterskull but mancers, swords and bolts and just has a terrific aggro MU. Turns out when you have Fow, spell snare/pierce and mental misstep, it's not that hard to protect a stoneforge mystic for a turn

[Arsenal]

But where Batterskull really shines is the aggro matchup.

But can't the same be said of Jitte and SoFaI? Or did these lists run 1 Jitte, 1 SoFaI, and 1 Batterskull? Because Jitte and SoFaI can be an absolute house versus aggro too, especially when you supplement that avenue of attack with the amount of removal and countermagic you mentioned.

[Angelfire]

Does anyone still plays removal in this fuckin rubbish format ? I mean, almost every goddamn removal ever printed gets rid of a white 1/2 - since SFM don't have Haste, you can't cheat your overhyped and too-much-costly equipment into play the turn you tutor for it.

You only tutor for Batterskull in a few scenarios: against decks your opponent can't stop it (Merfolk), with your second SFM, when you have protection (Misstep, Mom, FoW), or when you are desperate for a threat. Also, decks don't run inifnite removal. If they are spending it on my SFM, it won't be there for your good threats.

For the sake of it, isn't DISCARD played ? Isn't fuckin STIFLE played ? You can also Stifle the Equip

If someone is making you discard what you tutored for with SFM you are most likely gaining card advantage and are up in tempo. Dozens of very playable cards get wrecked by discard and stifle, doens't make them unplayable.

(correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Stfile can stop somehow Batterskull from being 4/4 when it comes into play (don't dare say battlefield, it's Eternal Magic, plus Battlefield sounds way too much like a change for the young kids picking up the game, just like "dies" (stupid WotC) introduced in M2012 ><°)).

You mention "young kids", but ironically this attitude makes you sound like a child.

As far as removal goes, isn't Artifact removal played ? I heard Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip are kinda good card. Heck, even Beast Within makes your super 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink Germ into a 3/3 Beast which gets totally pwnt by REPEAL.

And how much of it is played main deck? Once again, SFM is why this card is good. If someone is bringing in Artifact removal for just equipment, you are probably in a good position to win. Not only is Beast Within horrible, you are also appear to be a scrub player. Lets assume I'm playing Vindicate instead (I cannot imagine a secanrio where I would be playing Beast Within), I'll target the Batterskull and kill the Germ at the same time.



I have grown tired of dissecting this post...

Batterskull is not the best equipment, but it doesn't need to be. It is a powerful utility card, enabled by a ridiculously efficient and synergistic card (SFM). It is supposed to be tutored up when it is needed, that's it. People keep comparing Batterskull to SnT and NO. This is the incorrect comparison. Saying Batterskull isn't good is more akin to saying Terastadon is worse than Prog. Situational, uncounterable 4/4 Lifelink, Vigilance for 1W are very good in a ton of scenarios, period.

[dirtyapes]

As honestabe said, Batterskull could be good in a deck that is made to play it. But playing Batterskull just because you play 4 SFMs, I think is the wrong idea. In most decks(ones not built around it) Batterskull is strictly worse than any of the Swords or Jitte. I would just leave them to the Standard players and play good cards instead of trying to shove Batterskull into a deck because you think a 4/4 is game breaking.

[Tao]

!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!111! muthafucken im right u is wrong!!!11!!!1LMAO FORCOR OF WILL U PWNDED!!!1


ban? warning? any mod out here?


anyway...

Batterskull is good in almost every deck that runs SFM. An exception could be very aggressive Vial-based lists with 4 Wastelands and few lands but in other lists you should run one.
The reason why it is good is that it ... is good. There are a lot of scenarios in which it is superior to any other tutorable Equipment.

- they can't tempo you with their removal. If you search Jitte they can kill you in response to equipping Jitte and gain 2 additional Mana and usually even a whole turn from their Removal. If you search Batterskull they have to kill SFM right away, either at the end of your turn or in their main phase or in their EoT when you Vial it in or they have to kill the Germ token. This is especially important against Zoo because Tempo matters a lot in that matchup, a chump blocker might make the difference between losing and winning and they can't kill the Germ with a Bolt. Another scenario where this matters is post board against Merfolk when they can't just destroy you with a Submerge in response to equipping.

- Batterskull is faster when you need something right away. It is an active blocker with Lifelink on turn 3 whereas Jitte is only active on turn 4. This is important against Merfolk if they have a very fast hand and might also matter against Zoo, Affinity and Sligh.

- 5 Mana is not as much as you make it. Land heavy draws and attrition wars just happen from time to time. It is not as if casting it was the main plan, but it is a good thing to have backup. Also, if you anticipate removal, don't get Batterskull as your first Equipment.

[DragoFireheart]

- they can't tempo you with their removal.

Yes they can. If you get a Batterskull, they can just sit on a pridemage and then proceed to blow up your Stoneforge. You are now without a way to get the skull into play and once you do, it dies to pridemage (assuming you live long enough, what with cats and beasts beating the crap out of you).

[Koby]

- they can't tempo you with their removal. ...Another scenario where this matters is post board against Merfolk when they can't just destroy you with a Submerge in response to equipping.


They can Submerge the Germ token, bash for 4-8, forcing you to bounce/replay and do the same trick again next turn. I don't think this is a valid argument for Jitte vs Batterskull, especially...


if you anticipate removal, don't get Batterskull as your first Equipment.

[Tao]

Yes they can. If you get a Batterskull, they can just sit on a pridemage and then proceed to blow up your Stoneforge. You are now without a way to get the skull into play and once you do, it dies to pridemage (assuming you live long enough, what with cats and beasts beating the crap out of you).

It gets a bit too detailed here for a general discussion but in that scenario you still two for one'd them. You got a removal and a Pridemage out of the which is pretty good for a bad-case scenario I guess.
Anyway, the point was that you force them to use their Removal in a far less convenient time for them and a much more convenient time for you.


They can Submerge the Germ token, bash for 4-8, forcing you to bounce/replay and do the same trick again next turn. I don't think this is a valid argument for Jitte vs Batterskull, especially...

Oops, my bad. That was obviously a bad argument.
I didn't have that exact scenario in testing and only theorized it. Bad. Which coincidentally is the main reason why people here think that Batterskull is bad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

SoFI and Jitte are better against aggro than Batterskull because they can be reused, if necessary, in the mid game.

SoLS is better against control because it negates removal via attrition.

Batterskull isn't the best card against aggro, isn't the best card versus control until you have eight mana available and a guarantee that they won't play counters, and is shit when it's stranded in your hand for the first six turns of the game or so.

And SoFI and Jitte are already mana sinks at a fraction the cost.

This is not a Legacy playable card, it's an indulgence.

[GGoober]

Quoting you:




*Progenitus is objectively bad in legacy if you plan on paying its mana cost.

Batterskull is terrible if you plan on paying its mana cost too, and also if you cheat it in, it's marginally good, comparing against NOgenitus which just wins you the game



*The only deck that actually pays for Emrakul is Turboeldrazi which has 60 cards dedicated to make this happen.

Because Emrakul wins games when it comes into play (in 1-2 turns), the way AdN does. Does Batterskull do this? You're dedicating 5 cards and some would say you need more than just 5 cards because a deck with a strategy isn't just about raw number of cards. I can theoretically play 4 Show and 4 Emrakul but would the deck work without 60 other cards to support the strategy? No. Also, NOgenitus takes as much slots and is more mana efficient and wins the game. My examples here aren't to dismiss Batterskull, but are here to dismiss your terrible comparison/analogy and points that you try to raise.



*No deck in Vintage that plays Blightsteel Colossus can actually cast it
Wrong wrong wrong. There are games, particularly in control, where hardcasting a Blightsteel is entirely feasible. Most people don't do that in bulk of games but to say it's impossible to cast Blightsteel is just wrong. Also, what was the point on this quote? To say Batterskull is good because you can actually pay 5 mana if you can't cheat it in efficiently with SFM?




*Tinker has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Blightsteel Colossus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Natural Order has no built in mechanism that allows you to get rid of Progenitus once it gets stuck in your hand

*Show and Tell/Eureka/Sneak Attack have no built in mechanism that allow you to tutor up your Show and Tell target

*Reanimate doesn't have a mechanism to get a creature in the graveyard

Once again, you are analyzing cards based on just cards. Think of the interaction of Tinker/NO/Show with the actualy 60 card deck. These decks are built to execute game winning strategies and usually do a good job. SFM/Batterskull takes less slots but that's at a cost: It's a narrow strategy against aggro-attrition decks where you can pull ahead with Batterskull but it doesn't win the game like the mentioned 4 cards you talk about. Also, really just stop bringing in Tinker/NO/Show, it only proves that you don't understand the point that you cannot compare Tinker/NO/Show with SFM/Batterskull.




Stoneforge Mystic is the only card that can: 1) Tutor up and cheat into play the tutored card 2) Cheat the target into play when it's already stranded in your hand. This is significantly better than having to rely on cantrips to get your dead-card back in your deck.

What in the world is this supposed to mean? We know that SFM is the only unique card that allows you to do something ilke this. You do know that Mountain Goat is the only 1cmc creature that is a goat with mountainwalk? Also you made a good point that SFM is a good card, but you still didn't address the subpar Batterskull tutored up that sits dead in your hand until you draw your next SFM/cantrip if your initial SFM gets plowed.




@ Everyone going on about paying 5 mana to play Batterskull, please don't be a hypocrit and stop playing this bad 5 mana counterspell named Force of Will. I mean, by the time you have 5 mana, the threats you wanted to counter are already in play... /sarcasm

Terrible fail troll is fail. Somehow I don't think you mean /sarcasm as you mean it.

[Final Fortune]

"Inevitability" is an interesting way to describe a super-expensive spell being stranded in your hand.

One might just cut to the chase and play Gigapede.

The problem is, as Keynes observed, that taking the long view is usually the wrong view to take, because in the long view we're already dead.

I also notice that you are, and not as the first such offender, making a confusion of "SFM is a good card" with "Batterskull is a good card".

The rhetorical arguments are getting tiresome, it's not that Batterskull by itself is a good card when drawn, it's that Batterskull makes SFM a better card because it either draws removal or it resolves a "half Morphling, half Rhox Warmonk." These comparisons to Natural Order are just absolutely fucking retarded, we get it, hard casting Batterskull doesn't win the game but playing Batterskull doesn't require 2GG, a second creature or 4 to 5 cards and a completely uncastable creature in your 60 either.

I've been rather happy with the card in Death and Taxes and U/w Tempo, I think the card's playability has to be discerned by a deck by deck basis with testing instead of a theoretical circle jerk.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Does it make SFM a better card? The situations where it's better than Jitte, SoFI, or SoLS seem rare, mostly limited to when you have lots of land and no creatures.

I mean I could Natural Order up Empyrial Archangel and I would probably win games with that, and I could say, "Look, I Natural Order it up and it's great!" But it's not the best use of the card that's actually good here, which is NO.

SFM makes Batterskull seem better, which is to say playable at all, since you can trim some of the mana and other problems off, but is it actually better than existing equipment? Not really.

[Final Fortune]

Also you made a good point that SFM is a good card, but you still didn't address the subpar Batterskull tutored up that sits dead in your hand until you draw your next SFM/cantrip if your initial SFM gets plowed.

.

This doesn't need to be addressed, because what you see as a disadvantage is an advantage, not only is SFM a tutor the opponent must counter (the opponent can't allow you to tutor for Jitte), but now SFM is a threat the opponent must remove (the opponent can't allow you to resolve a Batter Skull). You shouldn't be asking yourself, "what do I do with Batterskull after my opponent removes my SFM," you should be saying to yourself, "my SFM drew removal from my Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique etc. and generated late game card advantage." With Batter Skull, every counter and now every removal spell is pointed at SFM, which allows the rest of your threats to see play. Batter Skull is like a virtual Lightning Greaves you don't have to even cast.

Also, people need to stop comparing Batter Skull to Umezawa's Jitte, because the two cards serve different roles. Batter Skull stabilizes the board versus aggro, or perhaps aggro-control, much faster than Umezawa's Jitte because it costs less mana via. Living Weapon, it's extremely significant vs. Goblins and to a lesser extent Zoo. Furthermore, control needs twice as much removal, or a sweeper, to deal with both the living weapon and SFM while Jitte only forces one to one trades and sinks tempo.

I think the problem is people are comparing Batter Skull to an impossible standard of NO, S&T, Jace etc. when it's more of its own niche.

[frolll]

Actually, it'll be totally off subject but : why play with creatures at all, when you can just win by turn 3 (or before) by playing TES or ANT (or Belcher for that matter)... ?
Amazes me how this format is totally split-brain, like some guys want to play fair, with critters, while it is legal (and much more efficient) to pilot a brutal combo deck and JUST. KILL. PEOPLE.

So...

[Final Fortune]

Actually, it'll be totally off subject but : why play with creatures at all, when you can just win by turn 3 (or before) by playing TES or ANT (or Belcher for that matter)... ?
Amazes me how this format is totally split-brain, like some guys want to play fair, with critters, while it is legal (and much more efficient) to pilot a brutal combo deck and JUST. KILL. PEOPLE.

So...

Because one strategy requires you to play temporary resources that you have to invest entirely into a single win condition and play pro-active disruption, while the second strategy allows you to play renewable resources that you can invest into multiple win conditions incrementally and play reactive permission.

There's no such thing as "Force of Will = free Mind Twist" vs. aggro-control, Storm on the other hand just scoops. Combo is high variance, aggro-control less so.

[Grollub]

Actually, it'll be totally off subject but : why play with creatures at all, when you can just win by turn 3 (or before) by playing TES or ANT (or Belcher for that matter)... ?
Amazes me how this format is totally split-brain, like some guys want to play fair, with critters, while it is legal (and much more efficient) to pilot a brutal combo deck and JUST. KILL. PEOPLE.

So...
Because you don't play against goldfish in tournaments, but people.

[Mr. Safety]

This doesn't need to be addressed, because what you see as a disadvantage is an advantage, not only is SFM a tutor the opponent must counter (the opponent can't allow you to tutor for Jitte), but now SFM is a threat the opponent must remove (the opponent can't allow you to resolve a Batter Skull). You shouldn't be asking yourself, "what do I do with Batterskull after my opponent removes my SFM," you should be saying to yourself, "my SFM drew removal from my Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique etc. and generated late game card advantage." With Batter Skull, every counter and now every removal spell is pointed at SFM, which allows the rest of your threats to see play. Batter Skull is like a virtual Lightning Greaves you don't have to even cast.

Also, people need to stop comparing Batter Skull to Umezawa's Jitte, because the two cards serve different roles. Batter Skull stabilizes the board versus aggro, or perhaps aggro-control, much faster than Umezawa's Jitte because it costs less mana via. Living Weapon, it's extremely significant vs. Goblins and to a lesser extent Zoo. Furthermore, control needs twice as much removal, or a sweeper, to deal with both the living weapon and SFM while Jitte only forces one to one trades and sinks tempo.

I think the problem is people are comparing Batter Skull to an impossible standard of NO, S&T, Jace etc. when it's more of its own niche.

If by 'niche' you mean 'jank', well, you're absolutely right, lol.

In reality we are trying to figure out the cards strength by comparing it to other cards in the format that serve similar roles. Why in hell would I search for a Batterskull with SFM? I'd rather play another jitte, or another SoFI, or Lightning Greaves, or SoL&S...Even Sword of Body and Mind and Sword of War and Peace are better than Batterskull. I would hazard that fucking Bonesplitter, Trusty Machete and Darksteel Axe are better than Batterskull. This is LEGACY. Converted mana cost COUNTS when you're playing fair.

No to mention, for my money if I'm playing green and white (like your example with SFM and Goyfs) my go-to card for lifegain in the aggro matchup would be Kitchen Finks, hands down. Tutorable with Green Sun's Zenith and reasonably costed without it. I just don't see Batterskull as any good...Jitte gives you life, Sword of Light and Shadow gives you life, and Basilisk Collar gives you life. All of those are far superior equipments than Batterskull.

I hope someone tries to play Batterskull across the table from me...i will have been entertained at the least. Once I stop laughing, I'll make them my little bitch by punishing them for bad card choices.

[CorpT]

I hope someone tries to play Batterskull across the table from me...i will have been entertained at the least. Once I stop laughing, I'll make them my little bitch by punishing them for bad card choices.

You advocate Leonin Arbiter in Deadguy. I don't really think you're the authority on good card choices.

[frolll]

Hey, Loxodon Hammer or Behemoth Sledge must be playable, then ? ;)

[Rune]

Hey, Loxodon Hammer or Behemoth Sledge must be playable, then ? ;)

I think you mistook 'f' for 't' when you created your username.

srsly, try reading the Living Weapon mechanic.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This doesn't need to be addressed, because what you see as a disadvantage is an advantage, not only is SFM a tutor the opponent must counter (the opponent can't allow you to tutor for Jitte), but now SFM is a threat the opponent must remove (the opponent can't allow you to resolve a Batter Skull). You shouldn't be asking yourself, "what do I do with Batterskull after my opponent removes my SFM," you should be saying to yourself, "my SFM drew removal from my Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique etc. and generated late game card advantage." With Batter Skull, every counter and now every removal spell is pointed at SFM, which allows the rest of your threats to see play. Batter Skull is like a virtual Lightning Greaves you don't have to even cast.

This is a terribly confused view of the situation.

If your opponent has no removal and no clock going on, it's not clear why Batterskull is any better here than Jitte or SoFI. If your opponent has creatures that need dealing with, Jitte or SoFI is certainly better. If your opponent has removal, SoLS is better.

And unlike Batterskull, none of these cards need Stoneforge Mystic to untap unharmed to be a realistic threat in the mid game.


Also, people need to stop comparing Batter Skull to Umezawa's Jitte, because the two cards serve different roles. Batter Skull stabilizes the board versus aggro, or perhaps aggro-control, much faster than Umezawa's Jitte because it costs less mana via. Living Weapon, it's extremely significant vs. Goblins and to a lesser extent Zoo. Furthermore, control needs twice as much removal, or a sweeper, to deal with both the living weapon and SFM while Jitte only forces one to one trades and sinks tempo.

Uh. No. Goblins and Zoo will kill Stoneforge and then kill you long before you can actually get Batterskull out of your hand. Also Jitte can't be dropped if drawn or on the same turn you tutor for it. And it's not clear why at all Batterskull would be better than Jitte even if SFM did survive.


I think the problem is people are comparing Batter Skull to an impossible standard of NO, S&T, Jace etc. when it's more of its own niche.

Its niche seems to be, "cards that are going to be great in Standards and probably EDH."

[overpowered]

Consider that if SFM doesn't survive. Batterskull is a decent card because it has a threat alongside it.

If you HAVE an equipment in hand, Batterskull is a good card choice to search out. Because odds are, if you're running one of the supposed "better" cards than it, you're going to cast and equip it that card. They deal with your SFM, now you have batterskull, the lifelink allows you catch back up that life you lost and provides a critter for that "better equipment". I don't think it's the first thing to look for, but it provides a strong secondary target. It's the Kozilek to your Emrakul.

Batterskull in a control shell is a decent choice. It's not a F-F-F-FORMAT BREAKERRRRR but it's not as terribad as you all make it out to be. It really isn't.

[Tacosnape]

It seems to me that people have some weird opinions about Batterskull. Not necessarily all wrong. But weird.

Stoneforge Mystic is, in my opinion, the #3 creature in Legacy right now (1-2 being Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary). The strange thing about Stoneforge Mystic, is that its strength is also its drawback - it fetches equipment. This means to run a playset of this superman, you've also got to run a few targets for it to fetch. 3 if you want to run a tight list, 4 if you never want to be out of targets to fetch but want to risk drawing too much equipment at the wrong times.

So Batterskull needs to be compared to equipment. Period. The trick, however, is that Batterskull is essentially a creature. And while Batterskull's a weakling when you've got a solid board compared to the other equipment, he's a behemoth when you need a guy to carry your equipment.

Batterskull being a creature, however inefficient of one, is a bonus for it. Batterskull costing 5 without a Stoneforge is its biggest drawback. It's worth noting that to get Batterskull equipped on your first guy, it costs the same total mana that it does to get Sword of Anything and Anything Else equipped on your first guy - :5:. There are only two differences. You can't split the mana between two turns for Batterskull, and Batterskull's actually less mana to get going with a Stoneforge on the board.

There's only really 6 equipment you usually want to consider with a Stoneforge package unless you're doing sneaky stuff (Like running Lavamancer/Collar), as follows:

1. Umezawa's Jitte
2. Sword of Fire and Ice
3. Sword of Light and Shadow
4. Sword of Feast and Famine
5. Batterskull
6. Umezawa's Jitte, copy #2.

So rank these accordingly, decide how many spots you want to run, and fit the rest in from there. Personally, I rank them as follows:

1. Umezawa's Jitte
2. Sword of Light and Shadow (This is insanely good if you run 1-drops now that MM ups the chances of guys being in your yard, plus it's amazing against other Stoneforge decks.)
3. Sword of Fire and Ice
4. Umezawa's Jitte, copy #2
5. Batterskull (Though in my 4-equip lists, I'm trying this main and Jitte #2 in board.)
6. Sword of Feast and Famine (Occasionally amazing, occasionally weak.)

[overpowered]

Stoneforge Mystic is, in my opinion, the #3 creature in Legacy right now (1-2 being Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary).

So Batterskull needs to be compared to equipment. [...]he's a behemoth when you need a guy to carry your equipment.

Batterskull being a creature, however inefficient of one, is a bonus for it. It's worth noting that to get Batterskull equipped on your first guy, it costs the same total mana that it does to get Sword of Anything and Anything Else equipped on your first guy.

Effectively my opinion more textually developed.
This is precisely the reason that "Badder"skull is a good card. When you drop SFM and find a SoFaI then they kill your SFM, you'll be glad that you ripped your one-of BSKL. Or rather, you'll be happy you fetched BSKL when SoFaI is stuck in play and no one to put it on. BSKL is Squadron Hawk + Equipment for 5 total cost. A solid investment in Legacy control. It also takes one slot instead of four.

[elof]

It seems to me that people have some weird opinions about Batterskull. Not necessarily all wrong. But weird.

Text

"Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post."

Altough I don't actually like SoLS. My preferance equipments is Jitte, Sofi, Batterskull, Jitte nr2. I usually keep SoFF in sb against Bant/Elves/Team America/Other B/Gx.

[Mr. Safety]

You advocate Leonin Arbiter in Deadguy. I don't really think you're the authority on good card choices.

Huh wha?!?!? I never claimed to be...but I feel (rather strongly) that Batterskull is a poor choice. I suppose I came off rather arrogant, which is pretty foolish TBH. I didn't mean to imply that 'I am THE MAN' when evaluating cards.

As far as Leonin Arbiter goes...I opened a discussion on the card as a hatebear with Vials in Deadguy, I didn't say I 'advocated' it. I don't even play Deadguy...and the other members on that forum straightened me right out. I re-read Stoneforge Mystic and chalked it up to 'I'm slightly retarded...' lol...

You have to admit that Leonin Arbiter is at least discussion worthy because of its possible implications in the format, unlike Batterskull which seems like a fairly 'bad' equipment when compared to the other powerful equipments in the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Batterskull being a creature, however inefficient of one, is a bonus for it. Batterskull costing 5 without a Stoneforge is its biggest drawback. It's worth noting that to get Batterskull equipped on your first guy, it costs the same total mana that it does to get Sword of Anything and Anything Else equipped on your first guy - :5:.

33% more to kill someone with a Mishra's Factory or Mutavault as it does to just cast Emrakul- 20 and 15 respectively.

It costs as much mana to get Coralhelm Commander to lord status as it does to just cast Sphinx of Jwar Isle- 6.

None of these things are worth noting.

[Van Phanel]

Just one problem with your post, Taco: I think Stompy-Decks should consider Sword of Body and Mind as Well because it grants protection from green and creates an additional body.

Aside from that I really like that post.

@IBA: Isn't that what he said right in the next line?

[dirtyapes]

I don't know how anyone would want to run Batterskull over any of the Swords. They can be moved around rather easily and create card advantage(other than SoWP). They can also give you protection from their removal or from their creatures so you can swing through and move the equip to block until they lose. Batterskull is just a 4/4 creature with no evasion. It has relevant abilities and they are what makes it really good in Standard. But if the token is removed it costs 5 mana at EOT to get a new creature or 5 mana during your turn to equip to your own creature. That is pretty mana intensive for this format and honestly, you should either be close to winning or have pretty much lost by the time you have the mana to do this unless you have have 2 Heirarchs out. But you should have grabbed a Jitte with the first SFM which means you have resolved 2 and should be winning anyway.

When I saw Batterskull first spoiled, I considered putting it into my U/W Tempo deck until I realized it cost 5 to equip. I don't believe it gives me a better matchup against Merfolk or Goblin when I can grab a SoFI then a Jitte. Most times I would not even need to get the Jitte before they are dead. Against Zoo, Jitte is way better because there are combat tricks you can make with it or just gain life if need be. The mana needed to play Batterskull was just too much for the investment since it was the 3rd equipment that I would want to get and I only play 2 SFM which makes it even worse.

[honestabe]

But can't the same be said of Jitte and SoFaI? Or did these lists run 1 Jitte, 1 SoFaI, and 1 Batterskull? Because Jitte and SoFaI can be an absolute house versus aggro too, especially when you supplement that avenue of attack with the amount of removal and countermagic you mentioned.

the lists were running 1 Batterskull and 1 Jitte, but I've played against it extensively and batterskull is just better than jitte in the deck. It's the auto go-to equipment against Goblins/Merfolk/Burn, and some people like it so much that they've cut the jitte for a second batterskull.

[bruizar]

Jitte is way too slow compared to Batterskull. Jitte gives +4/+4 OR gives +4 life, Batterskull does both. Jitte requires you to equip for 2, batterskull does not. Jitte needs combat damage first to do ANYTHING, batterskull deals damage and gains life right away. Chances are, your Jitte-equiped creature will die to make the first counters on Jitte, and you will have to equip it again. This is horribly slow. It's a great way to win in the late game, but it's not a fast clock.

Death & Taxes plays 4 Serra Avenger, because it is a beast with equipment due to Vigilance. Imagine being able to play with 8 Serra Avengers (4 Stoneforge Mystics that can get Batterskull, and 4 Serra Avengers). Serra Avenger can't be cast or vial'ed by turn 3, Batterskull can't be played until turn 3 too. They both have decent bodies and vigilance. Batterskull allows you to race because you gain life on attack and on defense, Serra Avenger allows you to race, because you have evasion+vigilance.

Batterskull is the perfect card for attrition strategies and more aggressive decks with Stoneforge Mystic. It switches from early game threat to late game inevitable attrition piece, swinging for 8 points in life difference and trading germs for real cards.

In a deck with Mirran Crusader I would rather have Swords, but without doublestrikers to boot, I'd go for Batterskull.

[Koby]

Jitte is way too slow compared to Batterskull. Jitte gives +4/+4 OR gives +4 life, Batterskull does both. Jitte requires you to equip for 2, batterskull does not. Jitte needs combat damage first to do ANYTHING, batterskull deals damage and gains life right away. Chances are, your Jitte-equiped creature will die to make the first counters on Jitte, and you will have to equip it again. This is horribly slow. It's a great way to win in the late game, but it's not a fast clock.

Death & Taxes plays 4 Serra Avenger, because it is a beast with equipment due to Vigilance. Imagine being able to play with 8 Serra Avengers (4 Stoneforge Mystics that can get Batterskull, and 4 Serra Avengers). Serra Avenger can't be cast or vial'ed by turn 3, Batterskull can't be played until turn 3 too. They both have decent bodies and vigilance. Batterskull allows you to race because you gain life on attack and on defense, Serra Avenger allows you to race, because you have evasion+vigilance.

Batterskull is the perfect card for attrition strategies and more aggressive decks with Stoneforge Mystic. It switches from early game threat to late game inevitable attrition piece, swinging for 8 points in life difference and trading germs for real cards.

Jitte is most important for -1/-1 activations, not life or the pump bonus. For those situations where the pump/life gain/attrition is important, then SoLS is better, as well as protecting from common removal. I think it would be obvious that if you need an equipment for racing, that a Sword is much better than Jitte. (SoFI gives the same offensive bonus, as well as card advantage; SoLS gives a 5 point life swing)

Serra Avenger shines because she flies first, then because of vigilance. Evasion is the more important ability.


In a deck with Mirran Crusader I would rather have Swords, but without doublestrikers to boot, I'd go for Batterskull.

You're already in white, so this should be a high contender for being maindeck to go along with SFM and the equipments.

[Jander78]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think using Batterskull in a pure control deck is not a horrible choice. It may not be comparable as the best equipment, but it's really not bad as a creature. If it had flying I'd play it as a win condition in Mono-U in a heartbeat. It dodges creature hate, can attack / block the same turn, and Lifelink is never bad in control. The only real issue you'd have to worry about is artifact hate, in which there should be better targets for that anyways (Shackles / Back to Basics / Deed / etc).

[CorpT]

You have to admit that Leonin Arbiter is at least discussion worthy because of its possible implications in the format, unlike Batterskull which seems like a fairly 'bad' equipment when compared to the other powerful equipments in the format.

Legacy Decks (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[]=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2010-11-14&end_date=2011-05-29&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Leonin+Arbiter&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks) in SCG Deck Database using Leonin Arbiter: 0
Legacy Decks (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[]=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2011-03-06&end_date=2011-05-29&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Batterskull&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks) in SCG Deck Data using Batterskull: 4

Months Leonin Arbiter has been available for Legacy: 7.5
Days Batterskull has been available for Legacy: 9

Results would say that you're wrong. I'm going with results.

[Arsenal]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I think using Batterskull in a pure control deck is not a horrible choice. It may not be comparable as the best equipment, but it's really not bad as a creature. If it had flying I'd play it as a win condition in Mono-U in a heartbeat. It dodges creature hate, can attack / block the same turn, and Lifelink is never bad in control. The only real issue you'd have to worry about is artifact hate, in which there should be better targets for that anyways (Shackles / Back to Basics / Deed / etc).

Wouldn't you rather just play something like Morphling instead?

[Jander78]

Wouldn't you rather just play something like Morphling instead?
I didn't say it was the best choice, just not a horrible choice. It's better than Morphling against board sweepers (Wrath / Disk / Deed / etc), much like an improved Rainbow Efreet.

[Arsenal]

I didn't say it was the best choice, just not a horrible choice. It's better than Morphling against board sweepers (Wrath / Disk / Deed / etc), much like an improved Rainbow Efreet.

Although both obsolete, I'd argue that Rainbow Efreet is superior to Batterskull; Efreet costs one less to hardcast, 1 less to activate, and she has Flying (which way more useful than Vigilance and/or Lifelink). True, Batterskull is a 5-turn clock, but you're going to be much more likely to connect with 3 in the air versus 4 on the ground.

[Jander78]

Although both obsolete, I'd argue that Rainbow Efreet is superior to Batterskull; Efreet costs one less to hardcast, 1 less to activate, and she has Flying (which way more useful than Vigilance and/or Lifelink). True, Batterskull is a 5-turn clock, but you're going to be much more likely to connect with 3 in the air versus 4 on the ground.
Correct. I made that quite clear in my initial post. Flying is the one thing this is missing to give it an edge.

[Arsenal]

like an improved Rainbow Efreet.

I was responding to this specific part of your post. Batterskull isn't an improved Rainbow Efreet at all.

[Jander78]

I was responding to this specific part of your post. Batterskull isn't an improved Rainbow Efreet at all.
Fair enough. Not going to argue semantics over the words "much like" compared to "is". My fault for not wording it logically. I'm only trying to point out that this card has other applications than being looked at as strictly equipment.

[Mr. Safety]

Legacy Decks (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[]=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2010-11-14&end_date=2011-05-29&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Leonin+Arbiter&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks) in SCG Deck Database using Leonin Arbiter: 0
Legacy Decks (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T3]=3&deck_name[]=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2011-03-06&end_date=2011-05-29&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=Batterskull&simple_card_name[2]=&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks) in SCG Deck Data using Batterskull: 4

Months Leonin Arbiter has been available for Legacy: 7.5
Days Batterskull has been available for Legacy: 9

Results would say that you're wrong. I'm going with results.

No problem...consider me wrong. I would challenge your argument simply with this: just because a card gets played, doesn't mean it's good. What if in a tournament someone was using Phyrexian Arena? Would you say that it's a viable alternative to Dark Confidant? In most cases, it just doesn't make sense. Most tournaments have at least a few homebrews/rogue decks...does that make the cards they play 'good'? I'm not saying Batterskull is the worst option...it's just my opinion that other choices are superior. I would rather play Baneslayer Angel for 5 mana than Batterskull. Not fetchable, but I think I've already said that other equipments are better options. If you don't have a dude to equip at the time, then you probably have SOMETHING else in your hand to play...so control the board and stall...that's kind of what Deadguy does. I'd rather just control the game than try and force a mediocre card.

BTW, why the animosity? I may have a strong opinion on the matter, but I feel like I'm being pushed a little bit...maybe you don't intend that, but I'm feelin' it...it's just discussion, nobody wins or loses.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

This [SCD] goes way to much into depth. Yep the card is on the radar. Now check it out in the specific [Deck] threads if its wroth or not!

[SpikeyMikey]

Played against my first Batterskull today. The guy should've fetched up a SoLS. Batterskull does not race KotR swinging for 12 a turn. With SoLS and the Jitte he had in hand, he could've held me off for a good long while with SFM. But even after landing Elspeth, it was just too little too late.

I was nice and didn't laugh at him, by the way. Do I get a cookie?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Do I get a cookie?

No.

[bruizar]

Played against my first Batterskull today. The guy should've fetched up a SoLS. Batterskull does not race KotR swinging for 12 a turn. With SoLS and the Jitte he had in hand, he could've held me off for a good long while with SFM. But even after landing Elspeth, it was just too little too late.

I was nice and didn't laugh at him, by the way. Do I get a cookie?

Well, That's just stupid. He should have landed SoLaS first, then jitte or Batterskull depending on how much creatures he had (to dodge plowshares/alphastrike).Batterskull with SoLaS would be +9 Life and 6 damage each turn + raise dead against your 12 damage. The 12 damage wouldn't even come through due to vigilance of batterskull. You would simply end up gaining +6life and then hitting for 6 and gaining 9 life again.. He would have raced you easily if he did it in the right order.


If he didn't play Umezawa's Jitte, which I am suggesting people should replace for Batterskull (keeping the swords in), he would have won the game easily.

[GGoober]

Well, That's just stupid. He should have landed SoLaS first, then jitte or Batterskull depending on how much creatures he had (to dodge plowshares/alphastrike).Batterskull with SoLaS would be +9 Life and 6 damage each turn + raise dead against your 12 damage. The 12 damage wouldn't even come through due to vigilance of batterskull. You would simply end up gaining +6life and then hitting for 6 and gaining 9 life again.. He would have raced you easily if he did it in the right order.


If he didn't play Umezawa's Jitte, which I am suggesting people should replace for Batterskull (keeping the swords in), he would have won the game easily.

What about a game against Goblins/Fishies? Should I keep the Jitte maindeck or is Batterskull better than Jitte against these 2 matchups? How about opposing Bobs?

[Tammit67]

What about a game against Goblins/Fishies? Should I keep the Jitte maindeck or is Batterskull better than Jitte against these 2 matchups? How about opposing Bobs?

I think dealing with their threats before they hit critical mass is way more important than gaining 4 life a turn.

In fact I don't really think it is an opinion. Jitte is way better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, That's just stupid. He should have landed SoLaS first, then jitte or Batterskull depending on how much creatures he had (to dodge plowshares/alphastrike).Batterskull with SoLaS would be +9 Life and 6 damage each turn + raise dead against your 12 damage. The 12 damage wouldn't even come through due to vigilance of batterskull. You would simply end up gaining +6life and then hitting for 6 and gaining 9 life again.. He would have raced you easily if he did it in the right order.


If he didn't play Umezawa's Jitte, which I am suggesting people should replace for Batterskull (keeping the swords in), he would have won the game easily.

"It's good if you get SoLS first" is an abso-fucking-lutely awful argument for Batterskull being good in that situation.

[DragoFireheart]

"It's good if you get SoLS first" is an abso-fucking-lutely awful argument for Batterskull being good in that situation.


"Mountain Goat is good if you play Blood Moon first."

[Malchar]

Well, getting a jitte online against goblins (or any weenie/tribal deck for that matter) basically means that you've won. However, a jitte doesn't come with a free body. Having just a jitte on the field is horrible, but having just a batterskull is actually decent. Since batterskull comes with a body, the card advantage plays out much more like a creature, and I think that the card should be considered as such.

The fact that batterskull doesn't provide card advantage like the swords or jitte is balanced by the fact that it is actually a creature. The main problem is that it is competing with the most powerful creatures in legacy for slots in decks, and it actually isn't very big for the price, and the fact that you can move the equipment around doesn't really improve the card at all. The card is basically a finisher for a control deck. So is kotr and even tarmogoyf, which are way more efficient. The real advantage of this card is that it's colorless, but in legacy colored mana symbols don't actually matter all that much anyway. Maybe it could have some use in a stompy deck that uses the 2 colorless lands.

The first way that I thought of to break this card was if you could some how pump the germ token to keep it alive after you bounce/move the equipment. This plays right into using it in a stompy shell which includes other equipment. Of course, it costs so much to cast, even for a stompy deck.

[bruizar]

Having Jitte online takes three times as long as having batterskull online. If goblins doesnt kill you by then, you're already well on the way to winning the match. By the time Jitte has 2 counters, you will have done 8 damage and gained 8 life with Batterskull. Batterskull can attack and block/kill Piledriver, which is your main concern anyway. Jitte is a good card, but its very slow. It's a bad argument to say that goblins will just alpha strike you by the time you have Batterskull online, because Jitte takes 2 more turns before it does ANYTHING. Also, Gempalm Incinerator / Warren Weirding can blow you out in response to equipping.

[kusumoto]

Having Jitte online takes three times as long as having batterskull online. If goblins doesnt kill you by then, you're already well on the way to winning the match. By the time Jitte has 2 counters, you will have done 8 damage and gained 8 life with Batterskull. Batterskull can attack and block/kill Piledriver, which is your main concern anyway. Jitte is a good card, but its very slow. It's a bad argument to say that goblins will just alpha strike you by the time you have Batterskull online, because Jitte takes 2 more turns before it does ANYTHING. Also, Gempalm Incinerator / Warren Weirding can blow you out in response to equipping.

Casting and equipping Jitte costs 4. Casting a Batterskull cost 5. How is that slower?

Why do all of the supporters of this card think they will at all times be able to cheat it in?

[DragoFireheart]

Why do all of the supporters of this card think they will at all times be able to cheat it in?

They ignore the equip cost. Sure, a token comes on it, but bounce easily get's rid of it, leaving you with a over-costed piece of equipment.

[GGoober]

Having Jitte online takes three times as long as having batterskull online. If goblins doesnt kill you by then, you're already well on the way to winning the match. By the time Jitte has 2 counters, you will have done 8 damage and gained 8 life with Batterskull. Batterskull can attack and block/kill Piledriver, which is your main concern anyway. Jitte is a good card, but its very slow. It's a bad argument to say that goblins will just alpha strike you by the time you have Batterskull online, because Jitte takes 2 more turns before it does ANYTHING. Also, Gempalm Incinerator / Warren Weirding can blow you out in response to equipping.

How is this slower?

Turn 2 SFM in both cases.
Turn 3 Vial in Batterskull, Jitte nothing.
Turn 4 Jitte vial/cast Jitte equip swing or swing with 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink.

Same speed, different effects. Batterskull give you 4 damage, 4 lifelink lifepoint swing, which is nice. Jitte gives you +2 Jitte Counters, which is also nice.

I'm not here to argue which effect is better. Most people know that there's a reason why Jitte is busted, because Jitte charge counters are insanely powerful against many matchups (Gobs/Folks/Bobs/Hierarch/DnT/you name it you have it).

If you are intending to type a post that they can plow your Jitte on turn 4 in response to equip, then I think you need to be reminded that your SFM can be plowed on turn 2 as well. But my argument is structured around your claim that Jitte is THREE TIMES SLOWER. What the fuck?

[CorpT]

Well this is weird.


BDM: It has been impossible to discuss the Legacy format lately without having people talk about Mental Misstep. Is that distracting attention from any other cards from New Phyrexia that are going to have a significant impact on the Legacy metagame?


Stoddard: I think that the more people play Stoneforge Mystic, the more Batterskull will show up in sideboards, maybe even main decks.


Sacher: Surgical Extraction is seeing some marginal sideboard play, and one Batterskull has been incorporated into most Stoneforge Mystic packages, but that is all that I have really seen.


Barnello: I think we're at a point where Stoneforge Mystic is on the brink of being a "real" card. Because of this, I think Batterskull has real potential to be a threat in the format.


Durward: Batterskull is receiving some hype, but the card is worse than Umezawa's Jitte, except against some archetypes in which the Jitte is too slow. Trading a Germ for a Myr Enforcer can steal games that Jitte would not.


Elias: Batterskull is already seeing play. Note that several key Standard cards—Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, and Batterskull—are also becoming key Legacy cards.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/144&dcmp=ilc-mtgrss#74589

It's almost like some high level players think Batterskull is playable/has potential.

[Koby]

At the same time LSV spoke about this card in his set review "Hit or Myth" - mostly Myth, unless you can get it under SFM. Specifically, this equipment does not provide card advantage, like the other equipments do.

The crux of the argument is not whether SFM + Batterskull is good (just like every uncontested 2 card combo/synergy); but whether Batterskull is playable without this interaction.

It's important to note that in the absence of SFM to accelerate an equipment, that Sword & Jitte work better as a topdeck than Batterskull. 10 mana to cast/equip is prohibitive; whereas 4-5 mana to cast/equip would make the difference in a tight race.

[bruizar]

The crux of the argument is not whether SFM + Batterskull is good (just like every uncontested 2 card combo/synergy); but whether Batterskull is playable without this interaction.

It's important to note that in the absence of SFM to accelerate an equipment, that Sword & Jitte work better as a topdeck than Batterskull. 10 mana to cast/equip is prohibitive; whereas 4-5 mana to cast/equip would make the difference in a tight race.

And again I have to point out Natural Order and Tinker. If people in this thread are saying they understand the comparison between SFM and NO and Tinker, why do others keep bringing the dead-draw issue up?

[Koby]

And again I have to point out Natural Order and Tinker. If people in this thread are saying they understand the comparison between SFM and NO and Tinker, why do others keep bringing the dead-draw issue up?

The analogy your attempting to draw is that Batterskull::Natural Order.
In reality, it's Batterskull::Progenitus, or Batterskull:Blightsteel Colossus.

A better analogy would be Stoneforge Mystic::Tinker; but this isn't what the thread is about.
In essence, the question becomes "Is Batterskull worth playing in Legacy?", and the answer is typically "No."
The question "Is Batterskull playable without Stoneforge Mystic?" is a resounding "Absolutely not."

[Mr. Safety]

If SFM put the equipment onto the battlfield as you played it, BROKEN. It doesn't.

If SFM had haste, it would be BROKEN. It doesn't.

Ergo, SFM is NOT equivalent to Tinker, Natural Order, or even Polymorph for that matter.

SFM is a glorified Enlightened Tutor, nothing more, nothing less. What makes it good is that it's a tutor that can create a 2-card combo by holding the equipment itself. Vial makes it better because you can get a dude AND the Enlightened Tutor effect uncountered. Profit. It makes small dudes better, which works with disruption or as a way to make your threats superior to your opponents (ie faster clock or superior board position)

I could win the game by playing Natural Order into Cloudthresher...but would I? No. Progenitus is better.

I'm done, sorry if I've bored anyone with my ranting.

[bruizar]

The analogy your attempting to draw is that Batterskull::Natural Order.
In reality, it's Batterskull::Progenitus, or Batterskull:Blightsteel Colossus.

A better analogy would be Stoneforge Mystic::Tinker; but this isn't what the thread is about.
In essence, the question becomes "Is Batterskull worth playing in Legacy?", and the answer is typically "No."
The question "Is Batterskull playable without Stoneforge Mystic?" is a resounding "Absolutely not."

No, the analogy I'm attempting for about 10 pages is that Batterskull is as dead as Progenitus and as dead as Blightsteel Colossus, whereas Stoneforge Mystic is a card that works very similarly to Natural Order and Tinker.

Is Progenitus playable without Natural Order in Legacy? No
Is Blightsteel Colossus playable without Tinker in Vintage? No

I don't care what the difference in power level is, the simple fact that tier 1 decks in both eternal formats can support dead cards means that that dead draw isn't even an issue. Then there is the subtle point that once you grab a Stoneforge Mystic, you can still cheat the Batterskull from your hand AND the subtle point that 5 mana is actually very doable in many realistic situations, unlike what the theory crafters that scour this forum suggest.


@Metalworker:
You can see from your calculations that Jitte is a lot slower. In many cases, the first time you get Jitte counters, your creature will die and you will have to re-equip next turn, costing another 2 mana. So you have -1 creature -8 mana compared to +1 creature -4 mana with Batterskull.

Stoneforge Mystic 2
Jitte 2
Equip Jitte 2 - lose a creature, get 2 Charge Counters
Equip Jitte again 2

vs

Stoneforge Mystic 2
Batterskull 2 (already force some creatures to stay home now, because you cheat Batterskull in the combat step acting as semi-removal. Value before it hits play)
Bash
Bash

[Tammit67]

Having Jitte online takes three times as long as having batterskull online. If goblins doesnt kill you by then, you're already well on the way to winning the match. By the time Jitte has 2 counters, you will have done 8 damage and gained 8 life with Batterskull. Batterskull can attack and block/kill Piledriver, which is your main concern anyway. Jitte is a good card, but its very slow. It's a bad argument to say that goblins will just alpha strike you by the time you have Batterskull online, because Jitte takes 2 more turns before it does ANYTHING. Also, Gempalm Incinerator / Warren Weirding can blow you out in response to equipping.

If the goblin player predicts Batterskull, he will be prepared for it. Jitte is much more of a threat to his over all game plan, as it prevents him from reaching that critical mass.

And who cares that you have given them 8 damage? Goblins does not care about it's life total. Barring the game Lackey connects, it utilizes its life total as a resource to buy time and develop its board. The deck is not so fragile as be incapable of taking a hit turn 4. And honestly a turn 4 for a 4/4 lifelink vigilance is not nearly as threatening as a SoFI.

You being above 20 is a small price to pay for them to have a board becuase you can only deal with the creatures they choose to block with. Batterskull should not be the go to equipment in this matchup.



It's almost like some high level players think Batterskull is playable/has potential.

With the exception of Barnello, it would seem the rest of these comments are more observations that Batterskull is receiving some mild play, and not that it is nuts.

Play this card in the sideboard for when you expect a long drawn out attrition war against spell based control. Else you will find that the other equipments are just better for creature combat.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't care what the difference in power level is, the simple fact that tier 1 decks in both eternal formats can support dead cards means that that dead draw isn't even an issue. Then there is the subtle point that once you grab a Stoneforge Mystic, you can still cheat the Batterskull from your hand AND the subtle point that 5 mana is actually very doable in many realistic situations, unlike what the theory crafters that scour this forum suggest.


Tier 1 decks in both eternal formats can support dead cards because and only because of the high power level of those cards. Batterskull does not reach that power level. Let us, for a moment, view this issue as a graph. The x axis will be the various situations that come up in a game and the y axis will be the power level of a given card. With any cheatee card, if drawn into the hand, the power level is 0. If you find your cheater card to play your cheatee card, the power level is some positive point on the graph, depending on how powerful the effect actually is. If you take all the possible situations in the game and compare the power levels of each card over the course of those situations, you come up with an average power level of the card. On average, BSC gives you more advantage than other cards that could be run in that slot. The argument being made here is that, on average, Batterskull does not.

The fact that Batterskull's power level to usability ratio is so low in comparison to other threats in the format is why people are ridiculing the card. Saying that the presence of other dead cards in quality decks makes Batterskull's deadness ok is the worst logic I've ever heard. In that case, why run Batterskull at all? Why not run a singleton Pale Moon? There are times (few, oh so very few, but some occasional times) when it would be useful and if NOPro Bant can afford a dead card, so can you! There are situational cards worth running and situational cards not worth running. StP is dead against Belcher, but that doesn't mean that it's ok to main 4 Extirpates in case you play Lands. You're likely to need StP more games than not. You're not likely to need 4 Extirpates in more than a handful of games a year.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Having Jitte online takes three times as long as having batterskull online.

No it doesn't. Your inability to do basic math makes it difficult to take your absolutely inane arguments seriously.


If goblins doesnt kill you by then, you're already well on the way to winning the match.

If the only thing you're doing the entire game is grabbing equipment, you're going to lose to Goblins regardless of which equipment is your only play for the entire game.

Although in that situation I'd still rather have Jitte or SoFI, for what it's worth.


By the time Jitte has 2 counters, you will have done 8 damage and gained 8 life with Batterskull.

No? No. Bad math is bad.


Batterskull can attack and block/kill Piledriver, which is your main concern anyway. Jitte is a good card, but its very slow. It's a bad argument to say that goblins will just alpha strike you by the time you have Batterskull online, because Jitte takes 2 more turns before it does ANYTHING.

2 more turns? Are you sure you haven't confused Jitte with Pardic Dragon or something, because there's no other way to make the slightest bit of sense out of this drivel.


Also, Gempalm Incinerator / Warren Weirding can blow you out in response to equipping.

Uh, hi, yeah, your card costs five mana to do anything if they have removal. This is the very worst argument you could make.


Well, getting a jitte online against goblins (or any weenie/tribal deck for that matter) basically means that you've won. However, a jitte doesn't come with a free body. Having just a jitte on the field is horrible, but having just a batterskull is actually decent. Since batterskull comes with a body, the card advantage plays out much more like a creature, and I think that the card should be considered as such.

Jitte does come with a body if you've stoneforged it. Any advantage you gain from living weapon on Batterskull is outweighed by the fact that if that 4/4 dies, you need to pay five fucking more mana for it to do anything.


It's almost like some high level players think Batterskull is playable/has potential.

This is too obviously fallacious for it to be worth my time responding to. I mean Christ, they asked Adam "Just-Wait-Mosswort Bridge-is-going-to-break-Legacy" Barnello.


And again I have to point out Natural Order and Tinker. If people in this thread are saying they understand the comparison between SFM and NO and Tinker, why do others keep bringing the dead-draw issue up?

Swords to Plowshares and Strip Bare both depend on your opponent playing certain targets, yet both are not equally worth playing. Progenitus can't be hardcast in a Natural Order deck and Godsire can't be hardcast in a Natural Order deck, but one is still played and the other isn't. Mental Misstep is sometimes dead and Envelop is sometimes dead, but only one of these is good.

Your argument is atrociously bad on its face. Being a dead card in hand sometimes is a drawback. Sometimes the benefits outweigh the costs and sometimes not. Your goal should have been to put up a compelling case for why the benefits of Batterskull outweigh the costs, but you have failed massively in this endeavor.

[bruizar]

First coverage game on GP providence, won off the back of Batterskull.

[bruizar]

Second game, Batterskull was thoughtseized, SoFI was prenicious deeded. Then Ben Peebles-Mundy cast Umezawa's Jitte which collected counters but never used them to +2/+2 due to Krosan Grip. This is what I mean with Umezawa's Jitte being slow. Nonetheless he beat AJ Sacher with Stoneforge Mystics twice

[Tammit67]

No one is arguing the lack of merit for SFM

[bruizar]

Brassman is playing Batterskull in the feature match right now. Check it out

edit: 30 life for Andy, gaudenis 4 life / scoops up his merfolk. only thing he resolved was 1 stoneforge mystic into sofi with batterskull in his opening hand.

[Grollub]

Brassman is playing Batterskull in the feature match right now. Check it out
Indeed, blew Merfolk out of the water.

[Rizso]

Saw it merfolk never came back after batterskull got Sofai equiped.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Batterskull is great with a SoFI on it. That match would go exactly the same if he had started swinging with SoFI'd Mystic a turn earlier. Merfolk is dead to SoFI g1 regardless.

This doesn't seem to support your argument that Batterskull is more clutch than overkill.

[Rizso]

The lifelink and vigilance did alot in that game. The folk couldnt just race him.

[Grollub]

Batterskull is great with a SoFI on it. That match would go exactly the same if he had started swinging with SoFI'd Mystic a turn earlier. Merfolk is dead to SoFI g1 regardless.

This doesn't seem to support your argument that Batterskull is more clutch than overkill.
He'd might have won with a speedy SoFI that is true, but it certainly wouldn't have been a bulletproof plan. Merfolk already had 3 lands in play and plenty of lords in hand, so he might have been able to just race Mystic+SoFI.

OT: Brassman's deck looked hella sexy.

[Tao]

reality > this thread

batterskull ftw

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You're killing a lord a turn and drawing a card with each hit. How the Hell does Merfolk possibly race that?

Conversely, it's perfectly possible for Merfolk to race Batterskull by itself when your vigilance dude can't block.

[bruizar]

I like how Peacekeeper got Protection from blue from the SFM that brought him a SoFI

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like how Peacekeeper got Protection from blue from the SFM that brought him a SoFI

You seem to be really bad at reading the thread title of the thread you created. That's weird.

[dschalter]

You're killing a lord a turn and drawing a card with each hit. How the Hell does Merfolk possibly race that?

Conversely, it's perfectly possible for Merfolk to race Batterskull by itself when your vigilance dude can't block.

Turn two lord, turn 3 lord? That can easy outrace a SoFI equipped Mystic.

[Rune]

A lot of the pros/high level players seem to be on different kinds of SFM+Batterskull brews. They should really have read the Source, so they wouldn't have put unplayable garbage in their decks!!

[bruizar]

Third feature match, third time Batterskull sees play!

[Jak]

It's pretty hard to deny the card now when it is actually seeing play and doing well. Playing one dude and getting two has always been strong and I am surprised people here are just not seeing that. Equipment has always had the problem of needing a creature or having a creature removed in response to equipping. Stoneforge Mystic changed that and now Batterskull has as well.

Edit- Also,


Jak: Link away.

I don't feel I have to.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Turn two lord, turn 3 lord? That can easy outrace a SoFI equipped Mystic.

That didn't happen.

Does a single pro-Batterskull person know what "comparative advantage" is?

For Batterskull to be worth a slot, it doesn't need to be better than nothing; it needs to be better than the next best card.

[bruizar]

SFM is the new Goyf, and its due to Batterskull.

Both Eric Froehlich and Josh Utter-Leyton are running it. Eric Froehlich has 8 lands in play, thats more than enough to cast and replay it. Josh has 7 Lands in play.

I think its time for the haters in this thread to turn around and acknowledge their mistake instead of stubbornly trying to defend their statements that Batterskull sucks. It's been good in the last 3 big tournaments since it got printed, both in the U.S. and in Europe.

[Jak]

Jack, as much as you love Gigapede and Krosan Tusker, how can you not love Batterskull? Card advantage, immune to common removal, and destroys aggro. How the fuck do you not like that?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gigapede isn't dead to a Repeal or Jace the Mind Sculptor*. It's also only good in a few narrow decks.

Batterskull isn't a terrible card, it's just that it's not in any way better than existing equipment.

I'm pretty much done bashing my head against the wall though. People played Sword of Body and Mind and Sword of Feast and Famine when they were new. People got wise to the new Swords sucking in Legacy and have moved on to their new toy, but sooner or later they're going to give up on Batterskull too. They just haven't made equipment as efficient as the original Swords and Jitte. And they probably aren't going to.

eta: Or Shackles, or Counterspell, or Vindicate...

[Artowis]

SFM is the new Goyf, and its due to Batterskull.

Both Eric Froehlich and Josh Utter-Leyton are running it.

PS: Eric Froehlich has 8 lands in play, thats more than enough to cast and replay it. Josh has 7 Lands in play.

Unless someone audibled, everyone who worked with team CF has it. They realized pretty early on Stoneforge was ridic.

[Jak]

Gigapede isn't dead to a Repeal or Jace the Mind Sculptor*. It's also only good in a few narrow decks.

Batterskull isn't a terrible card, it's just that it's not in any way better than existing equipment.

But either is Batterskull. I think you are severely underestimating the ability to actually replay it and be right back where you were. In a control deck is where it shines as a resilient win condition that smashes aggro.

You are playing against Landstill, or whatever blue control deck you want: Would you get a Sword, Jitte, or Batterskull?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But either is Batterskull. I think you are severely underestimating the ability to actually replay it and be right back where you were. In a control deck is where it shines as a resilient win condition that smashes aggro.

You are playing against Landstill, or whatever blue control deck you want: Would you get a Sword, Jitte, or Batterskull?

It depends. If I'm dealing with Jace I'd certainly want SoFI. If I think I can actually hit or have to get through Elspeth, I want SoLS.

The only situation I'd rather have Batterskull is where I have a lot of mana and they're sitting on StPs. Is that worth maindecking this card?

[Grollub]

Soooo. I leave the live feed to see the Champions League finals. When I left the feature match was Mystic grabbing Batterskull when I come back it's Mystic grabbing Batterskull - have all the feature matches been Mystic control?


reality > this thread

batterskull ftw
My thoughts exactly.


For Batterskull to be worth a slot, it doesn't need to be better than nothing; it needs to be better than the next best card.
Exactly! Batterskull is the best living weapon equipment.

[Tammit67]

But because of its cost it usually is not as good as the non living weapon equipments(!!)

[Ben]

People can certainly say batterskull is not super awsome, but they cant deny the fact that it is a decent equipment which suits well with stone forge mystics.

Whether you like it or not just pick one up from your LGS in case the price goes up even higher than 25.

I am amazed by all the legacy experts here who claimed that Batterskull is unplayable at all in Legacy.

[Jak]

It depends. If I'm dealing with Jace I'd certainly want SoFI. If I think I can actually hit or have to get through Elspeth, I want SoLS.

The only situation I'd rather have Batterskull is where I have a lot of mana and they're sitting on StPs. Is that worth maindecking this card?

In both those situations, you either have a lot of mana or you get beat because it is taking you 2 turns to get the Sword into play and equip it to SFM.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Living Weapon isn't that relevant. Yes, it comes in equipped already. However, it costs five fucking mana to do anything past that. And that's not in installments, that's all at once.

Yes, living weapon on a card is much better than the exact same equipment without living weapon. But SoFI is better than SoFI with living weapon and an equip cost of fucking five.

If someone StPs or god forbid Repeals your germ, Batterskull is a terrible fucking card. Since you already run it as a one of to tutor up with Mystic, you effectively get one body either way.

So it comes down to impact. And Jitte, SoFI, and SoLS all tend to have a bigger impact on the game than a 4/4 lifelinker.

[Jak]

The fact is, people are playing it and it is doing well. The inevitability of it is what makes it attractive. Aggro-Control decks can grab it late game for a resilient beater. Control decks can grab it (and multiples of it if I read Nightmare's report (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/welcome#5) correctly) and have an early defensive threat that they don't need to worry about protecting.

It is working and you can't deny that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The fact is, people are playing it and it is doing well. The inevitability of it is what makes it attractive. Aggro-Control decks can grab it late game for a resilient beater. Control decks can grab it (and multiples of it if I read Nightmare's report (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppro11/welcome#5) correctly) and have an early defensive threat that they don't need to worry about protecting.

It is working and you can't deny that.

People tend to play new cards. Especially if they're big in Standard.

A lot of people played Countryside Crusher and Lorescale Coatl when those came out, and in good decks that actually won games. And I could sit here all day listing cards that were played all over the place at Legacy tournaments when they were Standard legal and dominant in that format. Hell, Legacy Zoo was playing either Bloodbraid Elf or Ranger of Eos for a while. Bitterblossom was all over the place when Faeries was the top Standard deck.

People tend to make a confusion of what people are playing and what's dominant. This is even more true of individual card choices than deck choices. For a while a lot of Thresh players were swearing by Mental Note, for God's sake.

A top deck with one suboptimal card tends to be a lot better than totally new decks. See the random Gerrard's Verdict in Team Italia as an example.

But that doesn't mean you're improving your odds on the margins. You'll still win games running Werebear over Tarmogoyf, but that doesn't mean you should be running Werebear.

There's a lot of cards that float on or near the same power level in Legacy. David Gearhart is day 2'ing with Koth for God's sake. That doesn't mean that Koth is a card you should play in Legacy.

There's a number of equipment that would be playable either by themselves or just because Stoneforge Mystic is so good if Jitte and SoFI were banned tomorrow. Loxodon Warhammer, if you play it, is going to win you some games.

But you shouldn't play it. Because SoFI, Jitte, and SoLS are going to win you more games.

[Gui]

I second TIBA's opinion on the matter. _î

[Amon Amarth]

I think Batterskull is good. Most of it's awesomeness comes from being a great SFM target and being cheated into by the same card. Otherwise it's pretty slow, obviously. The card is good in control decks as a standalone, resilient threat. It's much, much worse in any "traditional" SFM deck like W/G.dec because they can answer a specific problem with one of the Darksteel swords; they are never short of equip targets. I like it in the decks that Team CFB is running but not really anywhere outside of there.

[lordofthepit]

I see a lot of people are playing it, but I'm still skeptical (that it's powerful enough to build a deck around in conjunction with a Stoneforge package, not that the card is strong enough to see occasional play in Legacy). I'll check the decklists when the events are done and possibly reevaluate my stance at that point.

[lordofthepit]

A top deck with one suboptimal card tends to be a lot better than totally new decks. See the random Gerrard's Verdict in Team Italia as an example.

The dude's name was Gerard. If there was a card called Bear Assassin that was borderline playable, you would be rocking it for sure.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

S'true.

Also, while I think they're very good cards, I think this GP might be causing people to over-rate Jace and Stoneforge Mystic. If you weren't paying attention, a deck running those cards has been running roughshod over Standard. Standard is the constructed format that pros play most heavily, and those are the better players as well as the majority of people with byes. It should be expected that a lot of them just threw Legacy cards in Caw-Blade, especially since the consensus on the "normal" Legacy metagame post-Mental Misstep was "Fuck all if I know."

I mean this is the same old song and dance we see every year. I've been playing Legacy since before it was Legacy and I don't remember a time when the Standard environment wasn't disproportionately influential on Legacy tournaments.

I think SFM is one of the top ten non-Tribal creatures in Legacy; I picked up two playsets when they were $2 each and pimped the card before it was cool. But I don't think it's the best creature in Legacy by several slots, quite possibly not in the top five.

Jace is a fantastic card because what control always kind of wanted was for Fact or Fiction to be a kill condition, even if a weak one, but it's not an auto four-of in control, much less everything.

I think these are good cards that are being over-hyped and over-played. I don't think they're as good as the representation suggests. I don't think Bitterblossom or Psychatog or Eternal Witness or goblins or LftL are as bad as the representation suggests, or as good as that suggested when those were peak cards in another popular format and thus surged in Legacy.

People overestimate how much metagames are a reflection of some kind of objective measure of what's good and neglect how much they're shaped by fads and peer pressure and what any given popular pro is hyping, or what big-money rares people just have already because they're playing that deck in another format.

I mean that's not to dismiss results out of hand, and any metagame is somewhat arbitrary; there is no objective "best deck" in a format like Legacy because there's too many answers and counter-answers, you need to actually base your decisions on what you expect other people to base their decisions on, which is inherently prone to imperfect choices.

But the fact that a lot of good players threw Legacy cards into Caw-Blade and kept in Batterskull has to be taken into consideration before coming to a conclusion.

I saw a lot of people masturbating today to how good Caw-Blade is in the mirror, and a lot of people hyping Batterskull in situations where it had no advantage at all over the traditional Mirrodin-Swords & Jitte package.

[Tammit67]

You know, I was thinking of writing exactly what you said, but could never convey it quite as properly as you did IBA. +1000000

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, IBA pretty much summed it up. I'm going to throw one more example out there because I've been here before too. When Odyssey came out, all the rage in T2 was to pair Predict with Memory Lapse. ZOMG, it's so good, you counter something and draw cards!! But what it worked out to was basically the same as Dismiss except instead of running 1 good 4cc counterspell, you ran 2 bad 2cc spells. And people defended it like it was their child. "Memory Lapse is like Time Walk" was repeated so often that I started thinking everyone had quit Standard and started playing Mental Magic (the only format where that's ever true). Sounds an awful lot like "Batterskull is like Progenitus". Eventually, it died down, although Predict has occasionally seen recurrances by people trying it out in Threshold lists who think they've rediscovered the lost continent of Atlantis. But Predict is still bad and Memory Lapse is still as terrible as Arcane Denial. Vintage used to be heavily affected by Standard too (although not as much as Extended did) until Mirrodin broke the format in half.

[SlopeeJ]

Just happened while playing today.. I'm merfolk he is stoneforge into batterskull... I dismember his stoneforge before he untaps and he has a 5 mana equipment that he isn't close to casting. I should have let him vial it in and waste 2 turns but I had cursecatcher out and wanted to make sure the dismember resolved. Would have sucked to pay 4 life and then have to deal with a 4/4 vigi/lifelink...

[bakofried]

To be fair, I've seen CounterTop lists running Predict, as it's an instant speed draw 2 for 2. But without Top+Cantrips, it's kind of garbage.

Also, IBA said it better.

[dahcmai]

Well, I can tell you one thing. I play a Legacy Caw Blade (see the thread) and Batterskull does NOT go in that deck at all. If you play anything similar to what I do, you'll hate it. It's way to expensive and slow for the benefit. I would much rather have a nice Jitte or sword of a sort instead.

[bruizar]

@TheInfamousBearAssassin: I don't want to offend you, but perhaps its time to pull your head out of your ass. You seem biased against this card regardless of arguments, tournament results and feature matches. The card has proven to be great at Bazaar of Moxen, SCG Open and the Grand Prix Providence.

Everything you said about this card is showing not to be true in practice. You won´t change your mind even when the facts speak for itself. IMO that´s the sign of an inflated internet ego trying hard not to fall on his face on his go-to-forum. We all make mistakes judging new cards somewhere along the road. Its no wonder that a lot of so called forum experts are quicker to ridicule a new card than they are to support it, because its easier to make the wrong call than it is to make the right one. It makes it all the more enjoyable to read when people like you are wrong and defend their crumbling arguments until the bitter end. You are actively and publicly displaying how little you understand about eternal magic.

Here's some substance:

My SFM package would be:
1) Sword of Fire and Ice
2) Batterskull
3) Sword of Light and Shadow/Sword of War and Peace

Sideboard:
Manriki-Gusari, swap for 1 of the swords, most likely the SoFI because I need the pro-white against other SFM.

I would not play Umezawa's Jitte. Card is too slow and does too little for its price.

[bakofried]

Then, quite frankly, you are a moron. Jitte is the best equipment (outside of Skullclamp) ever printed, and should be in any deck seeking equipment. You said it best; "You are actively and publicly displaying how little you understand about eternal magic." Furthermore, it has yet to be proven that the decks running Batterskull won because or in spite of that choice.

[bruizar]

@Bakoffried

Jitte is a great card if you run a lot of creatures and the match goes into mid-late game. Jitte is a control card. If you don't run a lot of creatures, you get into problems quiet fast. Your equipped creature will get blocked to death before it can collect charge counters, and then you're sitting there without anything to equip it on, while cards like Tombstalker make short work of you. Against tribal decks Jitte may be a good card, but any of the Swords AND Batterskull are also good against tribal. Jitte can't race Progenitus, it does less than Batterskull does against combo (a lot later than Batterskull does).

Jitte is a great mid / late control card

Batterskull is a great early game threat that gradually switches its role to control in the late game as you drop your lands

IMO, Jitte is subpar in an SFM package, it belongs in NON-SFM decks. The only deck I know that can afford to run Jitte alongside SFM is Death & Taxes, because it runs Serra Avenger, which is VERY similar to Batterskull in the first place.

@
Furthermore, it has yet to be proven that the decks running Batterskull won because or in spite of that choice.

Keep asking for proof, while the rest of the world just plays magic and does well. Its simple that some people can't be convinced because they don't want to be. Don't play Batterskull then.

[frolll]

Well I'm pretty sure that Martin Juza and others that are doing well with the card at the GP could play a Scornful Egotist in the Batterskull slot and still win, just because these are skilled people.

OTOH, for a card to be "great", it kinda needs, IMHO, to show stronger numbers than 1-of in decks playing SFM. A great card is FoW, Brainstorm, StP, or something not always played by fours but impacting the game in a gamebreaker way, like Jace TMS or Humility. A 1-of playable only if you already a 4-of of SFM isn't quite a "great" card in the abstract, it's just a strong card in one context. Put the card in ANT and see if they win more games... A truly great card, like Brainstorm is, can fit in a wider array of decks.
Perhaps it's just my criteria for "great" that is not low enough to consider Batterskull great, but there is quite a difference between a good card (like a piece of equipment) or a great card (like SFM is). Being "great" while used in counjunction with an already great card seems like a stretch to me. Or "great" does not mean a thing, then, because, you know, Predict or Memory Lapse would be great cards, because when they're used in conjunction they have a great effect...

Anyway, this GP is clearly impacted by Standard, and everything IBA said still stands out as the most rationnal this thread had produced.

[bruizar]

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Betrayers/Umezawa_s_Jitte.jpg http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/New_Phyrexia/Batterskull.jpg

What Batterskull does each turn (Both on offense and on defense) is something that Umezawa's Jitte needs to connect 2 times for. Besides that, the first time you equip Jitte you are likely to lose your creature in the process. Jitte is online a lot slower than Batterskull too, as pointed out many times before in this thread.

The biggest upside to Jitte is that it can drop -1/-1 counters, which I admit is a very good ability to have. I just don't think the slowness of Jitte is worth it when you have Batterskull and 5 Swords with protection. SOFI shoots for 2 damage which is redundant to Jitte's ability, but it adds pro-goblins and pro-merfolk. So that only leaves the lifegain and pump abillities for jitte. Well, Batterskull does the same job but better. He swings for 8 lifepoint swings on attack AND defense (14 on attack with a SOFI on it). Vigilance means it actually stops creatures trying to, you know, Kill you?. Jitte attacks for 0 lifepoint swings, gets 2 charge counters, losing a creature in the process most of the time (or leaving it tapped when it doesn't die), only for you to attack for 4 lifepoint swings the following turn.

@ Froll: Batterskull is played the same way Progenitus is with Natural Order. Yes, it's a narrow card.

[Gheizen64]

Then, quite frankly, you are a moron. Jitte is the best equipment (outside of Skullclamp) ever printed, and should be in any deck seeking equipment. You said it best; "You are actively and publicly displaying how little you understand about eternal magic." Furthermore, it has yet to be proven that the decks running Batterskull won because or in spite of that choice.

Jitte is bad in a format filled with creature removal and it's especially bad if you don't run 20+ creatures. It just need too much times to be efficient and don't help in giving you more board presence. At least swords immediately make your creatures a threat, giving one less turn to your opponent to answer it, and those often can race since they don't need 2 turns to improve your creatures. Jitte is huge when everyone run 20+ creatures ranging from small to big ones, aka when the -1-1 ability is extremly strong. Otherwise it's mediocre, and so many times i'd rather have Batterskull or a sword when trying to race merfolk or TA.

Call me a bad player, but nowadays i'd rather run a set of swords (Sofi, sols) and not jitte.

[Gheizen64]

Then, quite frankly, you are a moron. Jitte is the best equipment (outside of Skullclamp) ever printed, and should be in any deck seeking equipment. You said it best; "You are actively and publicly displaying how little you understand about eternal magic." Furthermore, it has yet to be proven that the decks running Batterskull won because or in spite of that choice.

Jitte is bad in a format filled with creature removal and it's especially bad if you don't run 20+ creatures. It just need too much time to be efficient and don't help in giving you more board presence. At least swords immediately make your creatures a threat, giving one less turn to your opponent to answer it, and swords often can race since they don't need 2 turns to improve your creatures. Jitte is huge when everyone run 20+ creatures ranging from small to big ones, aka when the -1-1 ability is extremly strong. Otherwise it's mediocre, and so many times i'd rather have Batterskull or a sword when trying to race merfolk or TA.

Call me a bad player, but nowadays i'd rather run a set of swords (Sofi, sols) and not jitte.

[nwong]

Jitte only needs 2 mana to equip to another creature. Batterskull needs 5 mana.

Jitte can gain life, pump, kill creatures. Batterskull gains you life and lets you block.

In any deck that runs a decent amount of creatures, jitte wins hands down.

For Batterskull to be good, you'd need to be running few creatures and be able to make land drops consistently. In other words, you're in a control aggro shell, something like Standard's Caw-Blade. But as mentioned by someone else already, even that deck's Legacy version doesn't want it because SoFaI and SoLaS do the job better than Batterskull.

In summary, you might find a couple of scenarios where Batterskull is better than Jitte, SoLaS or SoFaI alone, but you're pretty unlikely to find one in which it's better than what the existing Jitte/SoLaS/SoFaI equip package already offers.

[Jak]

People tend to play new cards. Especially if they're big in Standard.

A lot of people played Countryside Crusher and Lorescale Coatl when those came out, and in good decks that actually won games. And I could sit here all day listing cards that were played all over the place at Legacy tournaments when they were Standard legal and dominant in that format. Hell, Legacy Zoo was playing either Bloodbraid Elf or Ranger of Eos for a while. Bitterblossom was all over the place when Faeries was the top Standard deck.

People tend to make a confusion of what people are playing and what's dominant. This is even more true of individual card choices than deck choices. For a while a lot of Thresh players were swearing by Mental Note, for God's sake.

A top deck with one suboptimal card tends to be a lot better than totally new decks. See the random Gerrard's Verdict in Team Italia as an example.

But that doesn't mean you're improving your odds on the margins. You'll still win games running Werebear over Tarmogoyf, but that doesn't mean you should be running Werebear.

There's a lot of cards that float on or near the same power level in Legacy. David Gearhart is day 2'ing with Koth for God's sake. That doesn't mean that Koth is a card you should play in Legacy.

There's a number of equipment that would be playable either by themselves or just because Stoneforge Mystic is so good if Jitte and SoFI were banned tomorrow. Loxodon Warhammer, if you play it, is going to win you some games.

But you shouldn't play it. Because SoFI, Jitte, and SoLS are going to win you more games.

This is cool and all, but it still doesn't say anything of worth on the playability of Batterskull in Stoneforge decks. It only contains one reason as to why Batterskull is seeing so much play. However, there are many reasons a card is played, popular, and successful; being at least playable is definitely one, and not, as you say:


This is not a Legacy playable card, it's an indulgence.

Here, you say:

A top deck with one suboptimal card tends to be a lot better than totally new decks. See the random Gerrard's Verdict in Team Italia as an example.

How is Batterskull suboptimal? Where is it under-performing in actual games? In actual games at the GP, Batterskull performed great and you can watch the videos of it winning games. Saying Batterskull is over-costed for an equipment, or worse than Jitte and Sword, is wrong. The only thing they have in common is that they are all fetch-able by the new sensation that is Stoneforge Mystic. They serve completely different purposes and that's why Batterskull is in there as a one-of.


Just so everyone is clear, this was what the thread was created about.


My conclusion is that Batterskull greatly improves SFM in multiples. Running Batterskull allows you to get more value out of running a full playset of Stoneforge Mystics, and Stoneforge Mystic is a busted card. I believe this card is like Vengevine. A great standard and legacy card, that only gets love in standard. It takes a while for the legacy community to catch on but it will eventually embrace it.

Bruizar was spot on, people didn't see it, but now that it actually is doing well, some of those people are coming up with other crap so they don't look wrong. Nobody was over-hyping this card or playing it up as a complete format warper. This thread was started to bring attention and suggest it as Legacy playable. Now, it has proven that with the recent success. Will it continue to see this much play? No, hardly any cards ever sustain this much popularity. Jack very eloquently explained why availability and popularity affect which cards are played and the amounts of. It still has proven to be playable and successful in Legacy. The multiple top 8s proves this and I'm sure there will be videos of the coverage put up to show you.

[frolll]

Problem is like saying Emrakul or Progenitus are great cards in the format. They're not, its Show and Tell and Natural Order (Sneak Attack is fringe) that are the great cards. Batterskull is playable, sure, but it's because SFM is a great card.
No SFM, no more Batterskull everywhere, just as in no Show & Tell and no Natural Order (and Sneak Attack I guess) would equal no more Emrakul and Progenitus. (well there's always Shelldock Island for Emrakul, but hey, you get the point, right ?)

+ what IBA said
People tend to play new cards. Especially if they're big in Standard.

A lot of people played Countryside Crusher and Lorescale Coatl when those came out, and in good decks that actually won games. And I could sit here all day listing cards that were played all over the place at Legacy tournaments when they were Standard legal and dominant in that format. Hell, Legacy Zoo was playing either Bloodbraid Elf or Ranger of Eos for a while. Bitterblossom was all over the place when Faeries was the top Standard deck.

People tend to make a confusion of what people are playing and what's dominant. This is even more true of individual card choices than deck choices. For a while a lot of Thresh players were swearing by Mental Note, for God's sake.

A top deck with one suboptimal card tends to be a lot better than totally new decks. See the random Gerrard's Verdict in Team Italia as an example.

But that doesn't mean you're improving your odds on the margins. You'll still win games running Werebear over Tarmogoyf, but that doesn't mean you should be running Werebear.

There's a lot of cards that float on or near the same power level in Legacy. David Gearhart is day 2'ing with Koth for God's sake. That doesn't mean that Koth is a card you should play in Legacy.

There's a number of equipment that would be playable either by themselves or just because Stoneforge Mystic is so good if Jitte and SoFI were banned tomorrow. Loxodon Warhammer, if you play it, is going to win you some games.

[Jak]

Problem is like saying Emrakul or Progenitus are great cards in the format. They're not, its Show and Tell and Natural Order (Sneak Attack is fringe) that are the great cards. Batterskull is playable, sure, but it's because SFM is a great card.
No SFM, no more Batterskull everywhere, just as in no Show & Tell and no Natural Order (and Sneak Attack I guess) would equal no more Emrakul and Progenitus. (well there's always Shelldock Island for Emrakul, but hey, you get the point, right ?)

+ what IBA said

Froll, what are you even trying to say? No one is arguing for Battleskull without SFM and most assuredly, no one is trying to put words like "great", "good", or even "ub3r l33t" on cards. Those terms don't mean anything since they are all subjective and useless when evaluating cards.

[Gheizen64]

ITT: people who argued about Batterskull said it would have been played alongside SFM, people who argued against said it just wasn't worth it compared to swords and jitte. Now Batterskull is played alongisde SFM (and it's often the first choice of tutoring), people who argued against it change their stance saying people who argued for it were saying the cards was the next coming of jesus and ask for more evidence.

A little on the defensive side, aren't we?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's not a change of stance.

It's not worth running Batterskull when SoFI, SoLS, and Jitte as a package all do everything you could need from Batterskull and more 96% of the time.

People are overhyping the card because they win games dropping it in with SFM, and failing to ask whether they would have won those same games (and others) with a different piece of equipment.

I'll go back to Natural Order. You can Natural Order up Empyrial Archangel and you'll definitely win games with that, but it's just not the optimal target for the card. Hell, Alix Hatfield's been knocked out of GPs by Natural Order for Silvos, Rogue Elemental.

SFM is good right now, in particular because everyone's playing Caw-Blade variants at the GP, and SFM is one of the best cards in that matchup. And any big, good-effect equipment you play next to SFM is liable to look good. Again, a lot of these games would have been won by SFM for Loxodon Warhammer.

But it's not enough to say that a card is played. Actually follow the games and count the comparative advantages. Where is Batterskull good that a Sword or Jitte wouldn't be better? Where is it useless or weak where Sword or Jitte would have won the game?

I mean you have to accept that a lot of what wins in any given Magic tournament is down to popularity, fads, and group-think rather than optimization. If you want to win tournaments, don't just echo what everyone's saying is good, try to figure out what beats them. You can't build the best deck if you just assume the group is right.

[bruizar]

Owen Turtenwald is going to play now with UWR SFM, he's undefeated. Let's see if he runs Batterskull or not.

EDIT: I think Rashad fooled me, I didn't see any red cards in Owen's deck.

Yep he plays Batterskull. Owen hardcasts Batterskull without SFM, Reid hardcasts Force of Will though. If it has resolved he would have easily raced the Dryad Arbor that killed him with 3 exalted triggers

Second Game he grabs Sword of Body and Mind, SoBaM was dealt with, second SFM grabs Batterskull with an active SFM already in play. Vendillion Clique in response to activation, brainstorm in response to that to hide Batterskull. Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, tap 3 to return Batterskull, replay it with SFM. He won this game because of Batterskull (And because of its bounce ability)

[nwong]

As mentioned above, it doesn't really matter who plays it. People are going to put it in their lists because it's new. It might even be good. But again, just because the person won with it doesn't mean it was the best card for the job. And I don't think anyone has really come up with a situation or matchup where batterskull is better than the jitte/sofai/Solas package.

[troopatroop]

Hm. Comparative Advantages... I can think of a bunch of situations, primarily defensive ones. I've never played with the card, but having a 4/4 Vigilifelink instaspeed blocker with a mana open on turn 3 seems good. Whether or not that merits a slot is debatable, I guess.

[Gheizen64]

Batterskull against drudge, Duke don't know batterskull can bounce, waste Ancient drudge on it, Owen bounce and replay. Savage and that's match whereas sword would have sucked.

[troopatroop]

Batterskull against drudge, Duke don't know batterskull can bounce, waste Ancient drudge on it, Owen bounce and replay. Savage and that's match whereas sword would have sucked.

First, that's a misplay. You don't evaluate cards based on bad plays. How is this not obvious?