Incestual-Collusion Fest or Legitimate Open.

[lorddotm]

After watching 3 scoops in 2 Top 8's, what do we think of the validity of the SCG: Opens?

Personally, I don't think it is obscene incest/collusion, but it is a disappointment. In Pro Tours we never see this, and I don't think this happens at the Grand Prix level. Like it or not, but the Opens have become somewhat of a spectator sport. Imagine if in the Champions League Barcelona decided it didn't want the win and "scooped" to Manchester? It isn't illegal, but it really sucks. Unless it is a political and ethical statement, I don't think scooping at high profile events is very fun for everyone else.

Let the flame wars begin!

[menace13]

The Title; Incestual-Collusion Fest is just awesome.

[Royal Ass.]

I was disappointed not to see the finals and annoyed he scooped, mainly because I wanted to see another Standstill match since I'm playing a similar deck. Obviously scooping in the finals is pretty anti-climactic. I think one the reasons is the frequency of these events. There are so many of them that it makes each one less special. No one would scoop in a big time Wizards sponsored event, but when you are going to one of these things every weekend and consistently top 8ing, it's not that big of a deal.

I don't think they get much resistance from SCGs. It seemed like all the announcers were tired and wanted to leave.

[lordofthepit]

Slightly off topic, but before opening the thread, I thought the "incestual" portion of the title was referring to how inbred the metagame has seemed to be as of late (i.e. much different from my local metagames and that of other big tournaments that I've seen being described).

How much of it can be attributed to the top players (who show up frequently and often start with two or three huge byes) playing a certain type of deck, and the rest of the metagame skewing around that?

[Koby]

This is exactly why we need to take the results with a grain of salt. That there is such a rampant scoopery occurring is precisely why the Open series will never see the level of play seen at the Pro Tour.

It's pretty disgusting to see players would rather claim Level Up status rather than become the proverbial winner.

[bfeingersh]

I think it's pretty messed up and SCG Open judges should do more about it, but at the end of the day I don't really care as I'm only going to a couple of their events.

[bakofried]

I voted the first one simply because of the title. But yes, I was confused and disappointed.

[cdr]

After watching 3 scoops in 2 Top 8's, what do we think of the validity of the SCG: Opens?

Personally, I don't think it is obscene incest/collusion, but it is a disappointment. In Pro Tours we never see this, and I don't think this happens at the Grand Prix level. Like it or not, but the Opens have become somewhat of a spectator sport. Imagine if in the Champions League Barcelona decided it didn't want the win and "scooped" to Manchester? It isn't illegal, but it really sucks. Unless it is a political and ethical statement, I don't think scooping at high profile events is very fun for everyone else.

Let the flame wars begin!

You don't see it in Pro Tour Top 8s because Wizards explicitly forbids it in PT Top 8s. As in "play your match out or you're DQed". This is because the Pro Tour is a marketing vehicle and nothing more.

It happens all over the place in the Pro Tour outside of the T8. It happens in every tournament everywhere and is entirely legal.

I'm not sure what your problem is.

[lorddotm]

You don't see it in Pro Tour Top 8s because Wizards explicitly forbids it in PT Top 8s. As in "play your match out or you're DQed". It happens all over the place outside of the T8. It happens in every tournament everywhere and is entirely legal.

I'm not sure what your problem is.

I'm not saying its bad because people do it in finals. I am saying it is bad because it has become a spectator sport. Please read the posts you are commenting on.

Maybe such rules should be instituted at the SCG Opens.

Also, I think the fact you can win two byes is obscenely retarded.

[cdr]

So you think it's a good thing to force people to play matches they don't want to play? When they're not even playing for anything but a plastic trophy? The money is already split at that point.

You can get away with that when you're giving out $40,000 and you spent hundreds of thousands to put on the show. But $200? Forget it.

Also, StarCity wants to get out of there just as bad as the players.

[lorddotm]

So you think it's a good thing to force people to play matches they don't want to play? When they're not even playing for anything but a plastic trophy? The money is already split at that point.

You can get away with that when you're giving out $40,000. But $200? Forget it.

Then it shouldn't be made into such a spectacle. I have no problem with splits, but playing it out a high profile tournaments should be mandatory.

[perm]

I think it's in the rational self interest of SCG to not have this happen, because it increases the yawn factor of the whole event, which is completely counter intuitive.

[dahcmai]

I don't care too much that they do that, though it is sort of anti-climatic. I just don't want to hear a single thing from anyone ever about how so and so deck did well in a SCG open and to look at the numbers. Those numbers are obviously not worth anything at all.

[Richard Cheese]

So the Open Series is now an indicator of what's popular rather than what's powerful?

[Michael Keller]

I think it's in the rational self interest of SCG to not have this happen, because it increases the yawn factor of the whole event, which is completely counter intuitive.

I think the nonsensical commentary that goes on between rounds is even more "yawning" is most respects. Like, some of the plays they indicate or foreshadow from some of the players playing a live game are just awful. One of the commentators yesterday during Gerry Thompson's match indicated Gerry should have Wasted the guy's Ancient Tomb when he was explicitly trying to "deck" Gerry out the old-fashioned way with Grindstone(s) on the table. The guy was at four life with an Ancient Tomb and three other land on the table to Gerry's lone Mishra's Factory - with Gerry's library getting ever-so thin.

[Occam]

Imagine if in the Champions League Barcelona decided it didn't want the win and "scooped" to Manchester?

Honestly, I don't think Barca could lose to the current Man Utd team even if they wanted to.


So the Open Series is now an indicator of who's popular rather than what's powerful?

In any case, nothing wrong in terms of rules, but it takes away from the entire point of making these events a highly public spectacle. Pat Sullivan made a good post on this over at scg, and anyone interested should probably pop over to have a look.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand how people are okay with what's happening at SCG Opens; the incredible level of scooping so that their friends can level up goes against everything that a competitive tournament stands for. The dollar amount or stakes involved shouldn't play into whether it's "acceptable" or not; you entered a tournament with the expectation of playing until there is a winner through match play, not through concessions and under-the-table agreements.

[GGoober]

I thought people played MTG because they wanted to win. I mean the person who got scooped into the Top 8 should feel awesome because he got all the wins, but don't those people doing the scooping feel bad? Isn't winning a good feeling? Isn't doing 'bitchwork' for another person a bad feeling? Like being used or something?

If I have nothing to gain from winning tournaments e.g. getting GP byes that I don't intend to go to, I'll never ever scoop to anyone. Unless my buddies AND I are just way too sick of playing against Merfolks in the Top 8.

[Nihil Credo]

So the Open Series is now an indicator of what's popular rather than what's powerful?
I thought this point had been driven into the ground years ago.

Deck Winning Chances ~ Deck Popularity * Deck Power

If you want to know one term, you need to use BOTH of the other two.

[ns2973]

Eh, the regulars are grinding to hit the free playset level, if you are already there? They just are helping the old boys club, i'd do the same if i was gerry last night. Why soul crush when you can help a friend get to a higher level?

But i wish there was a way to make it so we could watch the match, i was peeved when they stole the finals from me.

[Koby]

I thought this point had been driven into the ground years ago.

Deck Winning Chances ~ Deck Popularity * Deck Power

If you want to know one term, you need to use BOTH of the other two.

Does this imply that Landstill has incredible power level? It wasn't very popular leading into this month's metagame, but got two T8 at the Open and won BoM this past weekend.

[Arsenal]

The problem is that prize splitting is allowed. It takes away all incentive to play out matches. This in turn takes away from the competitive aspect of Magic and trends more towards the financial aspect of it, which imo is just wrong.

[Spartacvs]

this is my opinion and I am a little miffed with all this talk so take this with a grain of salt...

Anyone remember when Todd Anderson's wife won the 5k in standard with Eldrazi monument/ Nissa Revane Elves? Nobody bitched then. These are private Open series played for cash not pro tour hall of fame status. There is no reason to care about who takes the trophy home. It means less than winning a state champs. SCG does everyone a good one by always listing the 16 at least decks and interesting decks and other decks that start out well 3-1 U/G infect for example @ Orlando. You want to know what decks are performing well? the info is there. Also there is an ENTIRE column dedicated to showing what the meta game was and how each archetype performed. The results are not "skewed" unless you want to be overly results oriented on deciding what deck to play. As far as spectators are concerned nobody has to pay to watch the games! Imagine if you had to have premium to even watch the live feed? why not? seems perfectly reasonable to me. but no, you can watch for free and even win premium subscriptions just for watching! SCG and the players working hard to put up results week in and week out deserve applause for all that they do for the community; not this whinge-fest because the top8/finals didn't get played out to Joe schmuckatelly's satisfaction to see a fight to the death for negative value for the players involved.



my 0.02

[dakkon]

This brings back memories of the vroman-smmenen slugfest:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39067.0

the original article posted is here:
http://www.unpopularideasclub.com/?p=12


I'm not a fan of collusion but it happens on some level at every tournament because it is difficult to police. The current "system" rewards people who are well connected.

[android]

I agree with the comment that the credibility of the data is more and more in question. I mean any one factor has a marginal affect on the final outcome but you start throwing in 3 round buys, draws, scoops, intentional losses, etc. and it amounts to a huge mountain of BS.

There are factors such as player skill that may result in a good player winning with a bad deck, but that is something I can get behind. Not this crap. It's a skill/luck game which has way too much focus on gaming the game itself. This is why competitive magic is bland to me. I like playing the game, not jostling the odds and colluding. Take this scam to Vegas.

[lorddotm]

It definitely saddens me. I felt like I worked hard for my Top 8 in Los Angeles. I felt bad that I beat Bertoncini on a mispair to knock him out of the Top 8, but now I realize that he just has to play like 4-5 rounds to Top 8, and people will scoop to him if he needs it, so fuck the ringers. Them not winning every single SCG Open is embarrassing to them with the number of byes and scoops they get.

[ns2973]

It definitely saddens me. I felt like I worked hard for my Top 8 in Los Angeles. I felt bad that I beat Bertoncini on a mispair to knock him out of the Top 8, but now I realize that he just has to play like 4-5 rounds to Top 8, and people will scoop to him if he needs it, so fuck the ringers. Them not winning every single SCG Open is embarrassing to them with the number of byes and scoops they get.

The more i read about this the more i agree with you. They have to win what? 4 rounds to top 8? Then they just get scooped in? Feels like they won early, which got them bye's now they just have to coast.

Bullshit.

[DTC]

Well go figure 2 byes the first two rounds to start off 2-0. They have 7 rounds after that. So they win 4-5 rounds to go 7-0 or 6-1 and during the last two rounds either someone can scoop to them or they ID with their opponent so their record is 6-1-2 (20 points) rather than 6-2-1 (19 points) or 6-3 (18 points) and doesn't make the cut.

Same things happen the last round or last two rounds for GP/PT level events too as a way to get everyone in on tiebreakers. Especially on the grand prix circuit where many of the top pros get their 3 byes by a default.

The SCG opens seem more on level with high level events in games like yugioh anyway. The prize pool isn't amazing, much less to cover your trip unless you top4/maybe top 8 (i don't know the numbers for the prize) every time, or top 8 both weekends, and it gets the same couple hundred people showing up.

Also how many names on these tournaments are also on the pro tour? I'm sure some have pro points but most of the big names aren't even playing these events. It seems more like a circuit for amateur players to get their time of fame. Not something i mind, and not saying none of these players could hold their weight on a GP either, but just pointing out that we're looking at a different competitive circuit. Perhaps a stomping ground for the pros to be in a few years as well. Just food for thought.

[sdematt]

So you can't prize split at a GP then play out for glory?

-Matt

[cdr]

So you can't prize split at a GP then play out for glory?

-Matt

You can certainly split between yourself and your opponent, but since the prize is mailed out as checks it seems very unlikely that an entire T8/T4 would split - if WotC would even allow that, I have no idea. There have been scoops in GP T8s in the distant past, not sure whether WotC allows it currently.

[sdematt]

I'm assuming, however, that you could get clarification on prize splitting from the judge without getting penalized?

I'm assuming as long as you don't say, "I'll bet you a match we can prize split," that should be fine, right?

-MAtt

[dahcmai]

I have to admit I was pretty annoyed at AJ sacher's win. Get in for 2 byes. Play 2 people, scooped the rest of the way in? That seems a little silly. Now granted, I don't know the exact number of people helping to shove him through, but that win definitely wasn't deserved at all.

Makes you want to get a group together to push certain people through over and over to prove the system isn't working.

[cdr]

I'm assuming, however, that you could get clarification on prize splitting from the judge without getting penalized?

I'm assuming as long as you don't say, "I'll bet you a match we can prize split," that should be fine, right?

-MAtt

Oh, absolutely. You should always ask a judge if you're not sure.