Wizards introduces new format: Modern Magic. [Archive]

Gocho

05-20-2011, 06:47 AM

Wizards has announced a new format for the MTGO Community Cup:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05192011d

Only cards with the Modern frame and a banned list. Looks pretty similar to Extendacy, but with few sets:
8th
9th
10th
M2010
M2011
Mirrodin Block
Kamigawa Block
Ravnica Block
Coldsnap
Time Spiral Block
Lorwyn Block
Shadowmoor Block
Shards of Alara Block
Zendikar Block
Scars of Mirrodin Block

Banned list:
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Great Furnace
Tree of Tales
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Umezawa's Jitte
Golgari Grave-Troll

Perhaps wizards are testing this new Eternal format?
Without non-reprint cards
Without expensive old sets cards
Without storm combo :cry:

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

05-20-2011, 07:04 AM

Er, not even Dragonstorm?

dahcmai

05-20-2011, 07:05 AM

Kind of doubt it since "Choose Your Own Standard" was a format made up like this and that didn't get any backing past it's first time either. Not to mention, this is basically old Extended and it's obvious no one liked that. It was boring as sin.

Tinefol

05-20-2011, 07:08 AM

Smells like 'Overxtended'.

mojoiskewl

05-20-2011, 07:27 AM

Gocho

05-20-2011, 07:58 AM

It's too early. At this time Wizards will only use it in the Community Cup, maybe it would become a MTGO format (I expect it) and maybe it would become a Paper format.

I'll go and play Legacy

(nameless one)

05-20-2011, 08:24 AM

What I don't get is why Vial isn't banned? That list is essentially the whos who of extended banned list since Mirrodin.

perm

05-20-2011, 08:27 AM

So... old extended

Rizso

05-20-2011, 08:35 AM

Seem strange that Jitte would be banned.

emidln

05-20-2011, 09:03 AM

Pyromancer's Asscension seems reasonable as a combo deck.

Gocho

05-20-2011, 09:06 AM

Pyromancer's Asscension seems reasonable as a combo deck.

I think like you and I'm working in this way.

sigfig8

05-20-2011, 09:32 AM

Golgari Grave troll banned? Are they THAT afraid of dredge, or am I missing something?

Admiral_Arzar

05-20-2011, 09:42 AM

Golgari Grave troll banned? Are they THAT afraid of dredge, or am I missing something?

When I saw that I was like "This format blows, I'm not playing it." Actually, after I saw that all the artifact lands were still banned :(.

pippo84

05-20-2011, 10:31 AM

Lol. New frame is ugly! The old one is just better!

Why would anyone want to play this format? Seems really boring.. I would never play it.

Duals and Fow FTW! :tongue:

Finn

05-20-2011, 12:12 PM

Legacy is not going anywhere. It is very popular. Wotc just has to find a way to capitalize on it better and make it more accessible. Carving it up seems like a fool's errand.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-20-2011, 01:42 PM

Banning Jitte makes sense from the perspective of them not wanting the format to be all CawBlade+.

Not banning Vial seems weird.

Koby

05-20-2011, 03:07 PM

Combo elves didn't actually lose anything.

ktkenshinx

05-20-2011, 03:15 PM

Sims

05-20-2011, 03:27 PM

I'm reading this as a "Buy up rav duals on MODO because they'll likely be going up if this format thrives"

Octopusman

05-20-2011, 03:31 PM

I'd just like to add my 2cents by saying I think this is stupid.

mchainmail

05-20-2011, 03:40 PM

Combo elves didn't actually lose anything.

Wirewood Symbiote.

(And to a lesser degree, Birchlore Rangers + Grapeshot)

TsumiBand

05-20-2011, 07:06 PM

I think that many people, on this forum and others, are going to look at this the wrong way. Modern Magic is not supposed to be a replacement to Legacy. I bet that it is intended as a correction of the currently defunct Extended.

Ever since Extended changed its structure in March 2008, the format has had some problems. Even before then, it was losing support and players (probably because Legacy was experiencing a parallel rise in popularity). I personally was once an Extended player in the pre-2006 years, but nonsense like Affinity drove me to Legacy.

Legacy is certainly an awesome format, but it does have a considerable price barrier for newer players. There have been extensive discussions about this fact, and the rising cost of staples is itself a staple of Legacy. FoW, Wasteland, Duals; these cards do prohibit some players from entering the format.

Modern Magic, as a replacement or supplement to Extended, would effectively create another Eternal format with its own time-honored strategies, decklists, and staples. But it would be a format that was not burdened by the reserve list and generally had a larger pool of cards in circulation at any given time. Wizards once lamented that the reason for old-extended's (T 1.X) failure was its large card pool and deck choices. The success of Legacy has demonstrated that this is not the problem at all. Similarly, the shortcomings and failures of the new rotating extended, which was again changed not even 2 years later, show that players might not really want 2 rotating formats. Extended is still the "Pro-Tour" format, and it lacks players who play it for fun.

Modern Magic, as a new and accessible Eternal format with its own strategies and staples, would fix this problem. With a well-constructed ban list to avoid stagnation and overt-brokenness, the format would be able to thrive.

Modern Magic represents a positive trajectory for Magic, not a dangerous threat to Legacy.

-ktkenshinx-

Yeah this thing.

If anything comes of the Modern format and it ends up on paper as well as MTGO, what it becomes is an 'Eternal-ish' format that isn't encumbered by stupid stupid reprint policy, has staples which get printed in Core Sets every few years, and probably has FNM support for those reasons. It's pretty well understood that manabases tend to be the domineering cash suckers in Eternal formats - this format can run fetches and shocklands and print them out of the butt for years to come.

There's even a handful of actual Eternal decks that can make the jump over to this format by just swapping out a couple of cards. What does Zoo really lose by moving to Modern; Chain Lightning and old duals? Feh, great. That deck works the same as it ever did, only now maybe you have to run a few goofballs like Lightning Helix over Chain Lightning. Boohoo, like that deck gives a shit about its own life total anyway.

I think that it's clearly too early to see what becomes of this format, but it looks like a great basis for a 'mini-Eternal' which actually gets what most people agree proper Eternal formats need; regular reprints of cromulent cards to keep people able to buy-in and play.

Octopusman

05-20-2011, 07:43 PM

Yeah this thing.

If anything comes of the Modern format and it ends up on paper as well as MTGO, what it becomes is an 'Eternal-ish' format that isn't encumbered by stupid stupid reprint policy, has staples which get printed in Core Sets every few years, and probably has FNM support for those reasons. It's pretty well understood that manabases tend to be the domineering cash suckers in Eternal formats - this format can run fetches and shocklands and print them out of the butt for years to come.

There's even a handful of actual Eternal decks that can make the jump over to this format by just swapping out a couple of cards. What does Zoo really lose by moving to Modern; Chain Lightning and old duals? Feh, great. That deck works the same as it ever did, only now maybe you have to run a few goofballs like Lightning Helix over Chain Lightning. Boohoo, like that deck gives a shit about its own life total anyway.

I think that it's clearly too early to see what becomes of this format, but it looks like a great basis for a 'mini-Eternal' which actually gets what most people agree proper Eternal formats need; regular reprints of cromulent cards to keep people able to buy-in and play.

Maybe.

They never reprinted FoW or Mana Drain (yet). Just because they can reprint cards doesn't mean that there is any guarantee that they will choose to do so. There are plenty of other cards they haven't reprinted yet as well. Basically, aside from Berserk in FTV, I think Wizards is just scared of reprinting cards, period.

The format doesn't solve other eternal formats' issues. It all depends if they decide to reprint cards to help alleviate painful costs associated with playing the game. From everything I've seen so far (playing since Legends), I'm very skeptical.

Koby

05-20-2011, 09:53 PM

Wirewood Symbiote.

(And to a lesser degree, Birchlore Rangers + Grapeshot)

I was thinking the old former PT Berlin Extended list, of which has been restored thanks to the expanded scope of Kamigawa block. You don't actually need Birchlore nor Wirewood to go infinite with Cloudstone Curio, but it does help on slower draws.

Tao

05-20-2011, 11:19 PM

Stupid Wizards. They will not be able to make players play an "older than T2" format other than Legacy without PTQ support and even then they will only play it for those few tournaments. The current Extended is an awesome format but no one gives a damn.

Legacy is the reality. People want to play older format so that they can play no matter how old they are. Modern Magic is just a ridiculous attempt of making players care for something that they do not want to care about.
Deal with it Wizards and undo the reserverd list mistake, 90+% of the community (tournament players AND casual players) are behind you.

perm

05-20-2011, 11:27 PM

Interested that darksteel citadel is unbanned. Also, I feel like chrome mox doesn't need to be banned

kiblast

05-21-2011, 04:39 AM

Interested that darksteel citadel is unbanned. Also, I feel like chrome mox doesn't need to be banned

Probably by banning Chrome they just want to minimize Combo impact on the new format. Yeah, they are basically saying that Fow is needed to fix the format,unless you ban cards that enables combo archetype ( for example, Chrome Mox).

Also, I'd rather play ''the bigger'' OverExtended from Masques.

Eldariel

05-21-2011, 05:19 AM

What I don't get is why Vial isn't banned? That list is essentially the whos who of extended banned list since Mirrodin.

I'm guessing they fear control vice grip of the format due to, in order, Tron, Gifts, Tron, Teachings, Faeries & Jace-control in its various incarnations so they leave Vial in to counterbalance (l0l) the effect of all the awesome blue in the format. Though banning Jitte seems just weird. Guess they want to minimize the impact of the old sets to the format and thus ban the standouts from the yore.

Meh, not terribly interested. Last good Extended had Invasion in it. The best Extended started from Tempest (to Kamigawa, appropriately enough).

Amon Amarth

05-21-2011, 01:06 PM

I'm actually kind of interested, if only because it's probably a replacement for the current Extended which is just shit. This sorta-Eternal format at least has it's own identity. Plus all my old Extended stuff might be worth something if they make it official.

ktkenshinx

05-21-2011, 01:49 PM

Also, I'd rather play ''the bigger'' OverExtended from Masques.

I too was a major advocate of the old Over Extended idea from a bunch of months back. But I understand why Wizards is making the cutoff at Mirrodin instead of earlier. Specifically, a few cards probably weighed heavily on their decision.

Masques Block:
Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Rishadan Port, Daze, Gush

Odyssey Block:
Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, Careful Study, Putrid Imp, Entomb, Cabal Ritual

Onslaught Block:
Mind's Desire, Tendrils of Agony, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Warchief

There are probably others that I am missing, but these are some of the big cards that Wizards probably did not want to see around. While I personally think that many of these cards would have been fine, even healthy, in the format (such as Brainstorm, Daze, Tendrils of Agony, Goblin Warchief), I understand that Wizards harbors reservations about including them.

So in the end, rather than having a new format with a massive banlist and lots of angry Legacy players trying to understand the loss of their staples, Wizards made a format where new strategies can thrive without some of the older and stronger Legacy format staples. I think this was a great decision. Of course, time will tell if this move pays off, but I for one am quite enthusiastic about Modern Magic and its timeframe.

-ktkenshinx-

Nightmare

05-21-2011, 05:12 PM

I kind of hope this does become a "real" format, because I love combo elves, and this is a format where they don't suck.

Forbiddian

05-21-2011, 09:12 PM

Seem strange that Jitte would be banned.

Have you played Standard recently?

Malchar

05-21-2011, 09:21 PM

If this catches on then they'll have to reprint the old fetchlands with a new border...

DTC

05-22-2011, 06:46 AM

I too was a major advocate of the old Over Extended idea from a bunch of months back. But I understand why Wizards is making the cutoff at Mirrodin instead of earlier. Specifically, a few cards probably weighed heavily on their decision.

Masques Block:
Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Rishadan Port, Daze, Gush

Odyssey Block:
Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, Careful Study, Putrid Imp, Entomb, Cabal Ritual

Onslaught Block:
Mind's Desire, Tendrils of Agony, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Warchief

There are probably others that I am missing, but these are some of the big cards that Wizards probably did not want to see around. While I personally think that many of these cards would have been fine, even healthy, in the format (such as Brainstorm, Daze, Tendrils of Agony, Goblin Warchief), I understand that Wizards harbors reservations about including them.

So in the end, rather than having a new format with a massive banlist and lots of angry Legacy players trying to understand the loss of their staples, Wizards made a format where new strategies can thrive without some of the older and stronger Legacy format staples. I think this was a great decision. Of course, time will tell if this move pays off, but I for one am quite enthusiastic about Modern Magic and its timeframe.

-ktkenshinx-

It also goes well with typical R&D mentalities anyway like "the new card frames makes it easier to distinguish between a modern magic card and an older card." - granted many old cards with updated frames break that logic.

Personally I had thought invasion or onslaught would make a good start as one of these blocks also has been mentioned to be the first block to focus on modern design standards where they redeveloped the color pie and made certain restrictions on what cards can do in each color.

Onslaught would have probably been okay if they banned mind's desire and maybe tendrils. We lose the ally color fetch lands unless they're reprinted (though this gives them a reason to reprint ally fetch lands, it's been asked for in every core set since onslaught rotated and like duals are too essential to not reprint)

ivanpei

05-23-2011, 12:14 AM

TsumiBand

05-23-2011, 09:09 AM

This thing for real? If it is, picking up rav duals is gonna be a pretty good idea now. I can definitely see this transition to paper. This is gonna be boring though it's alot like old extended when remands, mana leaks and cliques were king, with a splash for goyf/ firespout. Now theres jace 2.0. Blue control with good cards.deck is gonna be pretty strong.

Actually I'm not gonna freak, this seems like cyos all over again. That didn't transition to paper even though its a great idea. I don't want to buy up a all those rav duals and be stuck with egg in my face. I'll probably buy singletons of each so at worst, I can use it for edh.

I thought the problem with CYOS is that trying to establish a reasonable banned list is a complete nightfuckmare.

Also I really don't understand the comparisons to 'old Extended', at least where I come from, 'old Extended' means, like, Extended circa '02, when people were pissing and moaning about the loss of things like dual lands and StP. If y'all are talking about a recent version of Extended, before it became 'New Extended', then I suppose I get it, but I don't know how long that comparison will hold up since this format won't rotate things out.

I would at least like to find a group locally who wants to play this new weirdness a bit.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-23-2011, 11:28 AM

The problem with CYOS actually comes down to it being a ridiculously huge format, like, way, way, way bigger than Legacy. There are 960 possibilities to choose from before you settle on the first fucking card, and by this October that's going to jump to 1,224. A year after that it'll be 1,530. And that's using the smallest iteration, not including earlier cores and the pre-Ice Age cards.

It's an interesting format but completely impossible to have as something competitive. There's just no way to gauge metagame strength effectively, you would need tens of thousands of players to be playing constantly to get anything like a normal metagame and it'd be upended with each new block.

DragoFireheart

05-23-2011, 11:32 AM

I knew this sort of format would be attempted by Wizards at some point. It allows them control over staples in an eternal format, allows them to avoid their Restricted List policy, and if they deem it so they can reprint cards not on the Reserve list from older sets (Force of Will) to add to the format.

Perfect solution. If this format becomes popular, Rav duals are going to go up in value. Also, the Onslaught duals would have a high likely-hood of being re-printed.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-23-2011, 12:06 PM

There is no real "format", yet, this is just something for a single online tournament.

Koby

05-23-2011, 12:21 PM

Perfect solution. If this format becomes popular, Rav duals are going to go up in value. Also, the Onslaught duals would have a high likely-hood of being re-printed.

I rather think that there's sufficient fetchlands from Zendikar to support the multi-color setup. You can build really complicated manabases with 10 duals and 5 fetches, and it also creates tension about how to best play around Blood Moon. (obv play base-red deck :D)

Goyf Sligh anyone?
4 tarmogoyf
4 kird ape
4 goblin guide
(12-bolts, Blood Moon/Magus, etc)

DragoFireheart

05-24-2011, 08:32 AM

There is no real "format", yet, this is just something for a single online tournament.

WotC will try to push for it. It's the answer for all of their problems: they can circumvent the investors who have a stranglehold on the reserved list, they don't have to support Legacy, and they have more control over what enters the format. If it gets popular enough they would push for it to replace Legacy as the "popular" eternal format.

(nameless one)

05-24-2011, 08:41 AM

For the record, Block Party was also used as a one-of format at a Wizards tournament.

Mr. Safety

05-24-2011, 01:17 PM

It has a key ingredient that I think WOTC spies: a much lower entry-level investment.

Legacy isn't going anywhere...if anything, this might push Vintage even further to the fringes.

I think it's kind of a good idea...it's like New Generation Legacy. I remember when these sets were in extended, and I thought that was an INCREDIBLY exciting time for magic. There were a ton of viable and fun decks you could play:

Elves Combo
Domain Zoo (no Wasteland!!!)
Sligh Zoo (usually naya flavored)
Lightning Bolt Red
All-In-Red
B/G Loam Rock (with or without Death Cloud, take your pick!)
Cascade Combo (Living End, Hypergensis, and Restore Balance)
Spellweaver Helix Combo
Poly-Pro Control
B/W Tokens
Doran Rock
Dark Bant (Doran, Rhox War Monk, and Tidehollow Sculler, FTW! Again, no Wasteland helps!)

I loved that period of extended...maybe I'm alone in this, but it seemed like a lot of fun to me.

Shax

05-24-2011, 07:36 PM

So the best deck in this format would be?

Sintheros

05-25-2011, 04:41 AM

Modern needs to never, ever be a real format for exactly one reason.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/204.jpg

That deck should never see the light of day again. And it could play Jace now. That's the opposite of fun, right there.

Mr. Safety

05-25-2011, 08:27 AM

So the best deck in this format would be?

Elves Combo, most likely. Just a guess...LSV piloted that deck to an almost perfect record, if I remember right...the only cards you lose are:

Fyndhorn Elves (you can play Arbor Elf, Boreal Drud, or Elves of Deep Shadow)
Birchlore Rangers (see above)
Wirewood Symbiote (this is a tough loss...but not insurmountable)
Quirion Ranger (this is a REALLY tough loss...)

So we would functionally need a card that returns elves to hand to combo with Glimpse (see:Cloudstone Curio) and a way to make sure you can continue combo-ing without any creatures in hand (see:Summoner's Pact and Chord of Calling) So the combo would still be fairly well intact. I would envision lords to be a bigger part of the mix (Elvish Archdruid and Imperious Perfect mostly).

dontbiteitholmes

05-25-2011, 08:59 AM

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I am currently starting to get my format staples, have 3 duals (i know its sad) have most of the fetches, FoWs and the like, (yea I know they were like half the price they were a year ago) stuff like this gets me worried a lot. Will this pass over like CYOS, or will this turn legacy into what vintage is now?

Anybody have an opinion/friendly advice/consoling words?

Nobody would prefer to play a crappy format over Legacy. Buy the staples, they will only go up in value even if this does become a real format. No one has played serious Vintage in years and Lotus/Moxes/Recall still double in value.

menace13

05-25-2011, 09:06 AM

So the best deck in this format would be?
Anything with Jace, Vials, Bobs and Stoneforge.

Koby

05-25-2011, 02:37 PM

Anything with Jace, Vials, Bobs and Stoneforge.

Or take a page from NO Bant - GSZ into Turn 3 Jace using Noble Hierarch.

r3dd09

05-25-2011, 06:47 PM

Creatures: 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage

Spells: 21
4 Path to Exile
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Putrefy
2 Go For The Throat
2 Elspeth, Kight Errant Land: 25
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Treetop Village
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Forest

i've been running something close to this, and it's been doing amazing at what ever i put it up against.

had a night that i was testing till dawn with 2 friends on cockatrice. this deck came to be the best our of all that were tested.

Bignasty197

05-26-2011, 12:22 AM

Something with that Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows combo should do well. Probably Jund, Bloodbraid Elf into Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf seems strong.

Technics

05-26-2011, 01:08 AM

Lol. New frame is ugly! The old one is just better!

Why would anyone want to play this format? Seems really boring.. I would never play it.

Duals and Fow FTW! :tongue:

My goal would be to build the most competitive deck i can using only cards with old frames!

fyrisen

05-26-2011, 07:52 AM

I'd just play Dragonstorm. Best deck evar.

kiblast

05-26-2011, 08:14 AM

Modern needs to never, ever be a real format for exactly one reason.

Magnivore

That deck should never see the light of day again.

Forgive my ignorance, but what kind of deck are you referring to? Was it a T2 deck? EXT deck?

Tinefol

05-26-2011, 08:47 AM

Probably this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=2543&iddeck=9564

Worm1605

05-26-2011, 07:34 PM

While I think this is interesting, and would be a great replacement for extended, I have to admit that I am very concerned with this killing the Legacy format. I love magic I play 3-5 times a week and have been playing since revised. After sampling Standard and Extended I have come to the conclusion that I LOVE LEGACY. It is an awesome format for a number of reasons. It's a real shame that the only reason we are having this discussion is WotC won't support the format by reprinting cards for a PTQ season because of some reaction that had to do with the printing of chronicles. I mean come on! That was like for ever ago. I have never once said this before, you have my word, if WotC kills Legacy I will cash out. I am not alone. there are many players who strictly play Legacy. I own a standard deck and even an extended deck. Legacy? I have 10 decks. I build a deck a year slowly trading for cards when I see the opportunity. Being a big proponent of Legacy and starting and promoting several Legacy events in the Chicago area, I would be heart broke if this was the case. It's such a diverse and fair format, that lets you feel like your really playing "old school" Magic when you play. That is; it feels nostalgic.

I took me a long time to acquire the Legacy staples I have know. I literally just finished my set of duals 2 months ago! If WotC kills Legacy, like they did Vintage, I won't have the momentum to want to acquire the Ravnica Shocks. I just really hope this doesn't happen for the sake of Legacy. I would like to think they will still support it, but lets be real. if this is the new eternal format, it will be the new eternal format.

I just hope WotC can figure out a way to support both formats. I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing and sticking around since the beginning. I am a devoted Legacy player, and now they are trying to take my format away. It's just not right.

mchainmail

05-26-2011, 08:14 PM

Elves Combo, most likely. Just a guess...LSV piloted that deck to an almost perfect record, if I remember right...the only cards you lose are:

Fyndhorn Elves (you can play Arbor Elf, Boreal Drud, or Elves of Deep Shadow)
Birchlore Rangers (see above)
Wirewood Symbiote (this is a tough loss...but not insurmountable)
Quirion Ranger (this is a REALLY tough loss...)

So we would functionally need a card that returns elves to hand to combo with Glimpse (see:Cloudstone Curio) and a way to make sure you can continue combo-ing without any creatures in hand (see:Summoner's Pact and Chord of Calling) So the combo would still be fairly well intact. I would envision lords to be a bigger part of the mix (Elvish Archdruid and Imperious Perfect mostly).

Ranger wasn't in PT Berlin Extended...

Tinefol

05-27-2011, 04:55 AM

And I guess, they're really about to push this as 'Overextended':

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144

The article on WoTC explains why they've invented that format and what they're hoping for it to achieve.

ramanujan

05-27-2011, 07:49 AM

I'd just play Dragonstorm. Best deck evar.

I would play dragonstorm as well. I doubt that this format will get the push to be a mainstream format. As others have said, other formats have had a moment or two in the sun but never amounted to anything.

- EDIT I really should read the last post before posting. Obviously they are considering making the format official.

(nameless one)

05-27-2011, 08:03 AM

I'd just play Dragonstorm. Best deck evar.

I know that Dragonstorm saw print in Time Spiral but it is still with the old frame. Would that matter?

fyrisen

05-27-2011, 09:02 AM

Well, I sure hope it's legal and this is what I found at the rules site(?)

"Time Spiral block (including the "timeshifted" cards)"

GGoober

05-27-2011, 10:48 AM

If this comes to paper, should we hoard some shocklands? Or will they drop since WotC is probably going to print tons of shocklands to avoid the same dangers of eternal formats i.e. expensive manabases?

tangram

05-27-2011, 11:02 AM

Honestly this sucks.

They are clearly planning on killing Legacy and substitute it with Modern. Legacy is by far the best format, it's deep and yet fresh. Instead of dealing with the card available problem they just take the easy wait out and come up with a new format.

The reserved list could be easily dealt with by either abolishing it or introducing functional reprint and conditional restrictions. Reprinting this card in limited product or expansions would make everyone happy.

Companies exist with the goal of generating profit, to achieve this they need satisfied consumers. So just give customers what they want: deal with the problem that you've created WOTC and reprint the cards (functional or simply the same).

daugarten

05-27-2011, 11:53 AM

I'm excited to see what comes of this. Being a new player myself this would be much easier to break into than Legacy (just finally put together a budget Dredge deck...). Keeps costs low, and I'm sure Wizards and card stores will appreciate the players rushing to buy old cards that were forgotten.

Just my two cents. Looking forward to it.

Gaius Darkfire

05-27-2011, 12:33 PM

I like the format, it should be a fine replacement for Legacy. Still a damn shame that they seem to be euthanizing the format rather than actually fix the problems, but if Modern does move to paper magic than at least it should be fun.

And I guess, they're really about to push this as 'Overextended':

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144

The article on WoTC explains why they've invented that format and what they're hoping for it to achieve.

I liked the article, but it bothered me that they published that they agree that starting with the new frames is arbitrary, rather than a specific set intended for format health and diversity. That is fairly disappointing to me.

Lego

05-27-2011, 12:37 PM

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet, but Mirrodin is a really bad place for this format to start. In the following article:

Overextended or Bust (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/21947_Flow_Of_Ideas_Show_Up_Or_Shut_Up_Overextended_Or_Bust.html)

The author argues that either Invasion or Ravnica would be a better place to start. I actually really enjoyed the article, and I think he makes some really good points. Check out:

MTG Overextended (http://mtgoverextended.com/)

For more info on this format. The number of viable decks is probably even greater than Legacy, despite a smaller card pool. I'd hate to stop using my duals, but I have to say, I'd really consider playing this format. Crystal Witness, Blink Riders, Reveillark Combo, Blue Tron... so much is viable.

I'm really hoping that Wizard's announcement of "Modern" shows interest in an Overextended format, but doesn't mean they've necessarily settled on Mirrodin as a starting point. Going back further would be great for the format, and I actually think it'd be a lot of fun to play.

Koby

05-27-2011, 12:39 PM

I liked the article, but it bothered me that they published that they agree that starting with the new frames is arbitrary, rather than a specific set intended for format health and diversity. That is fairly disappointing to me.

You think they haven't done this for years?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/7.jpg

quadibloc

05-27-2011, 04:00 PM

Is this new format going to replace Extended, or compete with Legacy?

Legacy is booming in popularity, while Extended is having problems. So, a format that provides a Legacy-like experience to people who can't afford the real thing... may well do both.

It will draw a few players away from Legacy - those who play it using substitute dual lands, or those who would have to really save their pennies to buy those duals - but in the long run, by keeping the original duals form skyrocketing in price in the future quite as fast, it will slow its decline in the absence of reprints.

Being an experience that should have a fun and diverse meta, for players who want to use more than just the Standard-legal cards, it certainly will be an appealing alternative to many Extended players.

I think that this should be made into a real format.

Eternal formats don't directly drive the sale of new cards the way Standard does. But for cards to plunge in value when they rotate out of Extended discourages people from buying cards with which to play Standard - and so that's where an Eternal format provides a benefit to Wizards' bottom line.

Given that, I think that Modern should get a restricted list, so that people can play cards like Tarmogoyf there, and yet those cards won't wreck the meta, the playability, the fun of the format.

Tacosnape

05-27-2011, 04:22 PM

TsumiBand

05-27-2011, 04:48 PM

Dear Conspiracy Theorists:

If they were planning on killing Legacy, they wouldn't have just printed Mental Misstep and like 5-10 other cards made strictly for this format.

Sincerely,

Tacosnape.

PS - Format looks kind of neat, but I won't play it.

To be fair, they've been printing spells with a converted mana cost of 1 for a long time. Mental Misstep is good in formats with cards.

They don't have to 'kill' Legacy anymore than they had to actively 'kill' Vintage. Vintage is busy committing its own suicide. Legacy, for all its popularity, is moribund if it doesn't figure out a way to peacefully co-exist with the Reserve Policy. I wish it weren't so, I love Legacy. But I have to admit to liking an Eternal format which seems to actually matter a damn to the folks at WotC, and reading the article today left me with the impression that this would be a format they'd be willing to support in ways that they just can't(won't) do with Vintage or Legacy. Several decks make the change to Modern without being stripped of their power, Zoo and Elves come to mind. I think this mostly positive.

ktkenshinx

05-27-2011, 10:02 PM

Overall, I am happy that Wizards is trying to fix the eternal and Legacy problems. Modern represents a step in the right direction, although it is admittedly one of many that could be made. Every astute Legacy player can identify the price problem that the format has, and they all despise Legacy's relationship with the Reserve List. So insofar as Modern is Wizards' attempt to address that, at least they are doing something.

Sadly, this is really not the best solution they could have offered. For one, the Mirrodin cutoff is arbitrary and almost unintelligible. So much is lost by not setting the starting point at MM. Format diversity? Revisiting old staples and archetypes ? Attracting Legacy players and Extended players? Bringing older players back? All of this is lost by avoiding the MM cutoff.

More importantly, MM represents the end of the Reserve List. This alone is a symbolic triumph for players and Magic alike, and would justify the cutoff on its own. When we combine this with the importance of a diverse metagame, a return to older staples, and a generally wider card pool, we have an Eternal format that is sustainable and enjoyable.

Is this format a threat to Legacy? It might be. But the Reserve List is an innate threat to Legacy, and that problem is not going anywhere. I am in agreement with TheInfamousBearAssassin's suggestion, that the Reserve List should probably be banned and done away with for good. Or it should be abolished. But leaving things as is will be unsustainable for Legacy and a big blow to Eternal players (prospective and current) everywhere.

-ktkenshinx-

quadibloc

05-28-2011, 12:44 AM

So much is lost by not setting the starting point at MM. Format diversity? Revisiting old staples and archetypes ? Attracting Legacy players and Extended players? Bringing older players back? All of this is lost by avoiding the MM cutoff.I agree with that, but seeing the reaction by many Legacy players to this proposed format - as something that will kill Legacy - having it compete less directly with Legacy may not be such a bad thing.

Just having one old-style block in the format - and one, or two, old-style Core Sets - wouldn't have made the format that much like Legacy. While having Counterspell, and even Dark Ritual, in the format would have been nice... it may well be that having just a few older cards in the format would have made it more difficult, not less difficult, to manage it by banning selected cards so as to obtain a format that, like Legacy, is balanced and diverse.

That is, diverse in the sense of having many playable archetypes, even though it would be less diverse by not having old-school cards.

I can see that they may also have felt, from a marketing standpoint, that this new format would be more distinctive from Legacy and potentially more appealing to newer players if it stuck to the kind of game they were familiar with, rather than trying to be as close to Legacy as possible.

DragoFireheart

05-28-2011, 08:26 AM

Dear Conspiracy Theorists:

If they were planning on killing Legacy, they wouldn't have just printed Mental Misstep and like 5-10 other cards made strictly for this format.

Sincerely,

Tacosnape.

PS - Format looks kind of neat, but I won't play it.

Dear Tacosnape:

You are a new player with a budget of $200 and want to play in an Eternal format since you are done with standard for right now. Would you rather spend 800+ dollars to get those dual lands or play $100 for a playset of shocklands and new blue fetchlands?

Sincerely, DragoFireheart.

For one, the Mirrodin cutoff is arbitrary and almost unintelligible.

Tendrils of Agony.

I think I am going to pick up some of the blue shocklands later today. I have playsets of the new blue fetchlands: I'll be all set.

Is this format a threat to Legacy? It might be. But the Reserve List is an innate threat to Legacy, and that problem is not going anywhere. I am in agreement with TheInfamousBearAssassin's suggestion, that the Reserve List should probably be banned and done away with for good. Or it should be abolished. But leaving things as is will be unsustainable for Legacy and a big blow to Eternal players (prospective and current) everywhere.

-ktkenshinx-

Between the new modern format, the reserved listed, and the fact that WotC is pushing for this new format, it may very well be the death of Legacy. Not a quick one, but a slow bleed as new players that might have joined to play Legacy instead opt for Modern as it is far cheaper and most of the tournament used cards are in fact modern legal.

Something that I saw that was interesting was how Wizards banned Top but didn't ban Counterbalance. Is there some sort of substitute to replace Sensei's Divining Top to make Counterbalance work? The only card I found that was Modern legal was Crystal Ball.

Mr.C

05-28-2011, 02:12 PM

swoop

05-28-2011, 04:48 PM

Modern on paper will mark the beginning of the end for Legacy.

why?

lordofthepit

05-28-2011, 06:06 PM

Modern on paper will mark the beginning of the end for Legacy.

That said, there is no way a popular format would have duals and fetches on the cheap, unless they decide to reprint them as rares in M12...

I can't see anyone playing Legacy quitting the format to play Modern, except for those teenagers-on-an-allowance who are constrained to play bad decks (and aren't really "playing" Legacy in any competitive sense). And at least locally, the pool of Legacy players who do have competitive decks is large enough to sustain a healthy format.

TsumiBand

05-28-2011, 06:24 PM

...there is no way a popular format would have duals and fetches on the cheap, unless they decide to reprint them as rares in M12...

The fact that this is infinitely more likely than seeing functional reprints of duals, let alone the duals themselves, is part of the motivation of establishing a new Eternal format. Reading La Pille's article sends a clear message that WotC has been looking for a way to have a non-rotating format in which 100% of the cards are in large supply and easily reprintable should the need arise.

Much of the appeal of Legacy is that the format does not rotate. However, as Legacy becomes more and more popular, the relative supply of these cards as compared to the size of the audience that wants to play with them is only going down. This makes the format less and less accessible to new entrants over time.

Many of you have recognized this, and called for a non-rotating format that does not contain these cards.

....

As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.

It's not implicit that he's saying, "We understand card availability to be a direct result of supply, demand and our willingness to reprint staples", but ia statement like this would be difficult to make without subliminally acknowledging that reprints would be a necessary step in maintaining this format. The article goes on to point out that only enemy fetchlands exist in Modern "right now", and that there's a clear effort to watch the format's other idiosyncrasies unfold. Otherwise there's a giant piece of the puzzle missing here; Wizards hazards a new format on us that promises to be Eternal and dodge the availability issues of old, yet has no intent of ever reprinting things like shocklands? That would just set up a fail in another decade or so, I have to believe that this is understood by them.

DragoFireheart

05-28-2011, 09:13 PM

Let's take a look at a recent deck that performed at a SCG tournament:

4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
4 Island
1 Plains

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath

Lets see what we lose in Modern:

Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Daze
Force of Will
Swords to Plowshares
Flooded Strand
Tropical Island
Tundra
Windswept Heath

We lose top because it's banned and we lose those cards because they are too old. Thing is, we have other fetchlands to take the place of those fetches so they are irrelevant. There is also plenty of removal to replace STP: PTE easily fills the spot. As for the counters, FoW is a loss but it wouldn't be as needed since the format is slower. We MIGHT be able to replace top with Crystal Ball: it's not nearly as good as top but in a more limited format, it may be just as potent. Now lets take a look:

Brainstorm
Tropical Island
Tundra

Brainstorm is a tough loss and won't eve be truly replace, but Ponder could take its' spot as a filter card.

Tropical Island
Tundra

These cards can be replaced by shocklands.

If you noticed, at least half of the cards that are poweful have been printed in Modern era. What would it look like if we tried to port it?

Modern Adapted Bant Counterbalance:
============================

4 Crystal Ball

1 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Counterbalance

4 Ponder
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
4 Mental Misstep
2 Condemn
3 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile

2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
4 Island
1 Plains

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Breeding Pool
3 Hollowed Fountian
1 Marsh Flats

Is it as good as its' Legacy counterpart? Hell no. Is it tier 1? Probably not, but the point is porting to Modern is slowly becoming easier and easier as more powerful cards are printed in the modern era of magic.

lordofthepit

05-28-2011, 10:05 PM

Is it as good as its' Legacy counterpart? Hell no. Is it tier 1? Probably not, but the point is porting to Modern is slowly becoming easier and easier as more powerful cards are printed in the modern era of magic.

So you lose your 8 ways of stacking your library in response to your opponent playing a spell (Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top). You replace that with 4 Crystal Balls, which can only be activated once a turn (you can't top to float a 1, then a 2, then a 3, and then another 1 on the same turn); which only looks at the top 2, rather than the top 3; makes it extremely difficult to ensure that you always have the correct cards in your top 2-3; and doesn't let you "put" a 1 back on top. Moreover, it costs 3 mana, so even assuming you curve out perfectly, it will be turn 4 before you can "stack" your deck in response to the first spell your opponent plays that turn (and you will be unable to stack in response to their second).

You do indeed have the Ponders and Jaces, but their sorcery speed requires you to anticipate the card your opponent might play, rather than react. You also have your fetchlands to reset your top 2 cards, but without Top, it's pretty much blind.

I know you've already acknowledged that it's much weaker than the Legacy version, but even in the context of the weaker cardpool of Modern, Counterbalance is so crippled that I can't imagine it would be a viable strategy. I'd just ditch the terrible Counterbalances and Crystal Balls and play real Bant cards.

DragoFireheart

05-29-2011, 08:20 AM

I know you've already acknowledged that it's much weaker than the Legacy version, but even in the context of the weaker cardpool of Modern, Counterbalance is so crippled that I can't imagine it would be a viable strategy. I'd just ditch the terrible Counterbalances and Crystal Balls and play real Bant cards.

And how much do you actually end up losing in the Modern format? Dual lands? The format is slower so FoW isn't as needed. Most of the more powerful cards were printed in Modern era. Counterbalance may not be a viable deck, but some other powerful control deck will emerge once that route has been determined to not work. Zoo can practically swap out dual lands for shocklands and remain nearly the same power level. Merfolk lose Wasteland and FoW and Daze (and maybe Aether Vial if WoTC is smart enough to ban it), but has most of its' inner workings. Goblins will likely be too crippled or will have to go a different route. Bant aggrodecks can just take out NO/Pro for Planeswalkers. Dredge will still exist: it'll just be much slower.

My point is you lose relatively little with a switch to Modern. And what does WotC gain? The perfect answer to the Legacy problem of non-reprintable dual lands.

Hof

05-29-2011, 10:52 AM

The perfect answer to the Legacy problem of non-reprintable dual lands.
Modern is not a perfect answer to the problem of non-reprintable duals and other cards on the reserved list. It might be an answer, but not a very good or clever one. Unimaginative is the word I would use. Just cutting off all older cards at some arbitrary point is about as unimaginative and dull as any answer to this particular problem could possibly be. Wizards are suppossed to have some very smart and imaginative people who come up with imaginative, innovative, and clever solutions to difficult problems all the time.

DragoFireheart

05-29-2011, 12:00 PM

Modern is not a perfect answer to the problem of non-reprintable duals and other cards on the reserved list.

-Maybe not for the player base, but for WotC it is.

It might be an answer, but not a very good or clever one. Unimaginative is the word I would use. Just cutting off all older cards at some arbitrary point is about as unimaginative and dull as any answer to this particular problem could possibly be.

-I agree.

Wizards are supposed to have some very smart and imaginative people who come up with imaginative, innovative, and clever solutions to difficult problems all the time.

- WoTC wasn't going to reprint duals. They are more likely to go out of business before considering that route. Banning the reserved list wouldn't work either as that would anger the player base. They won't print functional replacements. What does that leave them with?

A new format at some cut off point. They chose Mirrodin to avoid most of the more powerful cards (Tendrils of Agony, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, etc). They then ban cards that proved themselves to be too powerful in the extended format as a starting point for a ban list. There is nothing to stop them from printing cards not on the reserved list to add to this format ( Lightning Bolt for example). It's possible for old favorites like Brainstorm to reappear if they deem them worthy enough for the format.

lordofthepit

05-29-2011, 06:27 PM

And how much do you actually end up losing in the Modern format? Dual lands? The format is slower so FoW isn't as needed. Most of the more powerful cards were printed in Modern era. Counterbalance may not be a viable deck, but some other powerful control deck will emerge once that route has been determined to not work. Zoo can practically swap out dual lands for shocklands and remain nearly the same power level. Merfolk lose Wasteland and FoW and Daze (and maybe Aether Vial if WoTC is smart enough to ban it), but has most of its' inner workings. Goblins will likely be too crippled or will have to go a different route. Bant aggrodecks can just take out NO/Pro for Planeswalkers. Dredge will still exist: it'll just be much slower.

My point is you lose relatively little with a switch to Modern. And what does WotC gain? The perfect answer to the Legacy problem of non-reprintable dual lands.

When I read your post, I thought your argument was "Countertop doesn't lose a whole lot of power, at least relative to the rest of the hypothetical format" in going from Legacy to Modern. I disagreed because Countertop does lose a lot, and as you stated later (which I agree with), there are Legacy decks which lose relatively little (like Zoo).

But if your point is "you can make new 75-card decklists which represent a subset of existing Legacy decks, some of which are very crippled and other of which are relatively unaffected", then yes, I agree with you. It's not an appealing format to me though.

TsumiBand

05-29-2011, 11:25 PM

Well, anticipate some amount of drift between formats, srsly. Most of Merfolk's creatures (if not all?) exist within Modern's parenthesis, as does Aether Vial. Even without Force and Daze people will sleeve this up and play it for the first year of the format's intro to paper, I can just about guarantee. It may suss out to be terribad, but people will play it, and that's what a 'metagame' is, so yeah.

Fossil4182

05-30-2011, 10:25 PM

I may be totally off the mark on this, but based off the "Modern Proposal" article on the WotC site, this is supposed to be an Eternal format that is at least in part (if not in full) a response to the problem of inaccessibility of Legacy (due to the price and availability of cards).

The problem is that several of the cards that will be staples in Modern will have some overlap in Legacy. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:

Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Zendikar Fetch Lands
Dark Confidant
Aether Vial
Mutavault
Thoughtseize

If card availability is an issue, then these cards more than likely see a 50% - 100% increase in price. I would predict this simply based off of the logic that these are cards that are going to be format staples in several formats which will only draw their price up more since the demand increases. Even if there are copies available, the rising price will still make the format inaccessible for the same players who could not afford to get into Legacy. Plus, this doesn't even account for the mark up on cards that are not in demand for Legacy, but would be in Modern. This format is still going to be really expensive to get into, even if the overall price is somewhat lower.

I've seen posts about this, but I tend to agree that drawing an arbitrary line for the legality of the sets was a somewhat piss poor move. Its a necessary one, but the justification they gave was terrible; specifically, that it would be easier to identify if a card was legal or not. That's a terrible reason! The primary basis for picking the start point of Modern was so the judges and players would have an easier time being able to tell if a deck was not legal? It just seems lazy to me that rather than make judges and players become more learned and vigilant about what cards are being played, that WotC would establish a rule for which the basis of it is to not make people have to think about such things.

Alternatively, WotC could also of stated that Modern's banned list was everything on the Reserve List (plus whatever else needed to be banned).

I think the biggest question I have about this format is where does it fit into WotC long term goals for the game?
(as a subsection to this)
-What are the implications of this format as it relates to Legacy and Extended?
-Is it meant as a replacement for either one or both of these formats?
-Will this format mean staples will be reprinted to increase accessibility?

SurFitOfTheVine

05-31-2011, 12:59 AM

DragoFireheart

05-31-2011, 10:20 AM

I really don't see this Modern Magic format being balanced. Even without Vial, Merfolks would still be the best deck.

4 AEther Vial

I'd totally play this in Legacy, let alone a slower and more limited format. Also, this deck doesn't play shocklands so any deck that does will always be in disadvantage.

Ather Vial would get banned quickly. They already are testing waters with it not being banned.

Top Deck

05-31-2011, 12:01 PM

I really don't see this Modern Magic format being balanced. Even without Vial, Merfolks would still be the best deck.

16 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis (Yes, Timeshifted is apparently legal)
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 AEther Vial

I'd totally play this in Legacy, let alone a slower and more limited format. Also, this deck doesn't play shocklands so any deck that does will always be in disadvantage.

without vial, i don't think merfolk can beat old standard jund or even current standard caw-go. those two decks have way more card advantage. stone forge mystic is probably one of the best cards ever created in magic (as shown at the latest legacy GP).

Minosse

06-01-2011, 01:04 PM

Hello,

I just opened www.mtgmodern.com to discuss about this new format!

I hope you'll join us soon!

Bye

DragoFireheart

06-03-2011, 10:38 AM

I signed up. My prediction that WotC would push for a "overextended" format came true. I predict it will get popular and could be a supplement to Legacy. Or kill Legacy, but either way it will become popular.

bloodbrother

06-03-2011, 05:24 PM

i don't think aether vial would get banned, it's the only card that keeps tribal decks keep up with zoo's raw power. if they ban it then zoo and affinity would be the only aggro decks.

Dxfiler

06-05-2011, 03:30 PM

I like Modern Magic as a format to replace Extended, not legacy.

Legacy is the format with the most balance right now of all the constructed ones. That's pretty much impossible to debate.

You've got like 20 playable decks at any time and literally anything can win. You can have a dedicated blue deck without FOW win a Grand Prix. That's a great format.

The problem is that it's undeniably cost prohibitive. I think you have the big box retailers to thank for that one. Supply, demand and hording have really made it hard for alot of new players to jump in. Even older players who are pros/semi-pros really can't get in unless they borrow a deck or are part of a team.

The format has reached the point where it's just not cost-effective for WOTC to support on a consistent basis. I think they are going to phase it out much like they did vintage. Although I view that as a mistake. I think Legacy's best role would be as a special attraction that you roll out a couple times a year still for things like GP's. The attendances speak for themselves.

Legacy is not a stale and unsupported format like Vintage. Legacy still commands some of the biggest tournaments in the world, so if WOTC marketed it as such and did at least one GP a year plus some other large attractions for it, it would survive.

But as a staple constructed format I think they want nothing more than to replace it with 'Modern Magic.'

MM seems fine as a new format. Again, I'd really like it to be a ptq format that replaces extended. That seems like the best use for it. If they're itnroducing it just to kill legacy, that seems like a mistake. A big one.

No one enjoys extended right now, and alot of people enjoy Legacy. You don't see stores doing weekly extended tournaments across the globe. If there weren't extended ptq's, no one would play the format.

Modern Magic seems like it could co-exist with legacy, because it comes off more as 'old extended' than it does a replacement for legacy.

We'll see what develops, but the tone of the article made me think they really want to do away with Legacy for good. I can see the reasoning, but I think it's a mistake.

If you're going to replace a format with Modern Magic, Extended in it's current form would be the obvious choice.

- Dave

chags

06-06-2011, 10:01 PM

Hello,

I just opened www.mtgmodern.com to discuss about this new format!

I hope you'll join us soon!

Bye

I signed up as well.

I must agree with Dave here, I really hope MM replaces the awfulness that is extended and certainly agree that legacy is hard to get into but it is an amazing format and seeing it die would pretty much turn me off from magic. Hopefully they leave us with legacy and supplement it with this interesting new format.

ktkenshinx

06-07-2011, 12:31 AM

Modern Magic really represents a half-baked solution to the problem of Extended (a Pro Tour only format that no one likes) and the problem of Eternal (The Reserve List). There is nothing significant about the Mirrodin cutoff; in fact, it is almost completely arbitrary. Modern card frames do not represent any historical change in Magic, and to think that Magic players need some sort of visual indicator to tell a set's legality is insulting to our intelligence.

Overextended is a good idea as a format, but this cutoff is really unacceptable. A far better solution would be a new format with a Mercadian Masques cutoff. Unlike Mirrodin, Masques is a far more historically important cutoff that really embodies the message of a new Eternal format. The most important things that an MM cutoff does are as follows.

1. Symbolizes the end of the Reserve List. This is the thing that is always at the front of the conversation, when there is argument about Eternal formats. MM was the set that historically departed from this list. This is highly significant, and starting Overextended at MM will send a strong message.
2. MM was the first full block to be built around the new Magic rules introduced in Classic, 6th Edition.
3. MM represented a change in card design philosophy, after the insanely powerful Urza's block.
4. An MM cutoff opens up a whole slew of cards and archetypes that are excluded from a Mirrodin forward format. This is a huge chunk of Magic's history, and a lot of fun and exciting staples/archetypes that are lost.

A Mirrodin cutoff is arbitrary and excludes too much from the format. It is not historical and does not mean anything. An MM cutoff means far more as an Eternal cutoff, and would draw greater support for the format.

Now, the question is: Does this undercut Legacy? I am not sure. Both formats are clearly intended as a new Eternal format, but I think they are more likely to be replacements for defunct Extended than replacements for Legacy. Could they replace Legacy? Possibly, but that has nothing to do with the new format and everything to do with the Reserve List hanging over our heads. This argument does not need to be rehashed: Yes, Wizards SHOULD abolish the List, but they probably won't. That means they need a new Eternal Format to address the problem (Or, as TheInfamousBearAssassin once said, Legacy should ban the Reserve List). These are both solutions to the problem, but one of them really needs to be implemented.

If a new format is to arise, I encourage people to turn to the RIGHT way of doing it, not the arbitrary and poorly thought out one. Overextended with an MM cutoff is the way to go.

-ktkenshinx-

DragoFireheart

06-07-2011, 08:46 AM

Overextended with an MM cutoff is the way to go.

-ktkenshinx-

It doesn't matter if that is the "way" to go. WotC is out of touch with the player base. There are enough powerful cards in pre-Mirrodin that WotC does not want to bother dealing with those cards. Goblin Lackey, Tendrils, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm etc.

joemauer

06-07-2011, 10:40 AM

It doesn't matter if that is the "way" to go. WotC is out of touch with the player base. There are enough powerful cards in pre-Mirrodin that WotC does not want to bother dealing with those cards. Goblin Lackey, Tendrils, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm etc.

They banned seven cards from the Mirridon block and two or three from the kamigawa, so why not start at MM and ban a few more(gob lackey was in urza's). They could go in the other direction and start at Ravnica block, a very balanced block.
Something else I don't get is grave troll getting the ban hammer. Dredge never dominated extended after breakthrough and ichorid cycled. Wizards may have some awesome graveyard cards coming in the next block or two?

Sims

06-07-2011, 10:51 AM

They banned seven cards from the Mirridon block and two or three from the kamigawa, so why not start at MM and ban a few more(gob lackey was in urza's). They could go in the other direction and start at Ravnica block, a very balanced block.
Something else I don't get is grave troll getting the ban hammer. Dredge never dominated extended after breakthrough and ichorid cycled. Wizards may have some awesome graveyard cards coming in the next block or two?

I was kind of wondering that myself. Without Odyssey block you don't have Putrid Imp, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe, Zombie Infestation, Ichorid, and you don't have Tolarian Winds from 7th... Is the deck that scary with bloodghasts and only 1 decent discard outlet?