Overextended: The Birth of a Format

[ktkenshinx]

Everyone on this forum has probably heard about the concept of "Overextended" at least once, whether on this site or on another. Simply put:

Overextended is a new Eternal Format that begins with blocks AFTER the Reserve List was phased out by Wizards. It is a distinct format with its own banlist. It is designed to have all the format diversity, innovation, and intricacies of Legacy without Legacy's high price tags and fixed supply of staple cards.

Today, May 23 2011, Gavin Verhey posted a succinct and persuasive plea for Overextended on Starcitygames.com:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/21947_Flow_Of_Ideas_Show_Up_Or_Shut_Up_Overextended_Or_Bust.html

Mr. Verhey not only argues for Overextended and its importance as a format (not to mention its importance relative to the newer announced format of "Modern Magic"), but he also offers a site that would serve as a hub of Overextended development, theory, and strategy. At the very least, the site would be the origin of future format growth:
http://mtgoverextended.com/

I encourage all Legacy players, both veteran and new, to look at these pages and join in the conversation. Whether you support the format, are skeptical about it, or even are flat out dislike it, those are all valuable voices towards its development.

Here are a few critical FAQs that will probably come up about Overextended. These are not necessarily conclusive answers, but I hope that they can start discussion.

1. "Does Overextended replace Legacy or otherwise endanger it?"
NO! Overextended is meant to supplement, not supplant, Legacy. It serves as a cheaper Eternal format that is supportable in a Pro Tour format, more accessible to newer players, cheaper (owing to the lack of the Reserve List), and just as fun.

2. "Is this an "official" format?"
Sadly it is not. Overextended, like EDH before it, requires wide community support from the internet and the real world to become a reality. That means ANYONE who wants to help and develop should take this chance to rise to the forefront of the upwelling format.

3. "Why the Invasion Block cutoff? Why not Mercadian Masques? Or Mirrodin?"
Mr. Verhey offers a persuasive argument about Invasion Block here:
http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=19
While it is not an airtight argument, it is a pretty good one. No Masques block means no Daze/Ritual/Brainstorm/Port/Dust Bowl/Tangle Wire/Rebels/etc. clogging up the works of innovation and new decks. It lowers the speed and powerlevel of a lot of decks, which is generally healthy for new formats. Also, Invasion was the first (oldest) set released on MTGO, so it allows older MTGO players to capitalize on their old investment and hopefully return to the game.

4. "How is this different than "Modern Magic" which was just announced by Wizards?"
By starting at the Mirrodin block, Modern Magic has a few problems from the beginning. It loses all of the wonderful cards from Onslaught/Odyssey/Invasion block that make up their own decklists. Tribal strategies, graveyard strategies, flashback, threshold, etc. All are gone as a result of this arbitrary cutoff. Moreover, this leaves a sizable chunk of MTGO player investments out of the loop. It would be more fun for players and more profitable for investors if the cutoff were changed. This means that "Modern Magic" would need to be replaced with "Overextended", or at least heavily modified.
Given that Wizards seems to be launching "Modern Magic" as a sort of trial, giving input in the "Overextended" Invasion+ direction would probably be better received at this point. Make your voices heard now!

If there are any other questions I missed, I will add them later as they are asked. I hope for this thread to be a sort of "The Source hub" for discussion of future Overextended activity.

-ktkenshinx-

[dahcmai]

Ugh, stirring up this one again. Nice rumor it was, but I doubt wizards cares.

[The Wolf]

I’m confused, why would I want to play a format that has nothing unique about it (EDH), no prize support (type 2), no constantly changing landscape (type 2) and no powerful cards (vintage and legacy)? There is a reason extended has never been anything but a PTQ format. Altering which sets are involved won’t change the issue of a midrange format not adding anything to existing formats.
Extended/Overextended are aimed at the imaginary player that has extra time to play another format, but for some reason the current ones aren’t enough (vintage, legacy, standard, draft, sealed and casual/EDH).

I know this sounds very negative, but I really don’t understand the push for overextended. I play a lot of magic, and don’t know anyone who complains there are not enough formats for them to play.

[ktkenshinx]

Ugh, stirring up this one again. Nice rumor it was, but I doubt wizards cares.

This time, it is not just a "rumor", because the player strategy is different. Instead of hoping for a rumored format to appear, players who WANT the format to appear are going to support it off the books. Just like EDH and 2HG (and Legacy, years ago) started out as player supported and maintained formats, so too will Overextended. Wizards does care about these formats when they attain enough popularity; this is clear in their formal sanctioning of all of the above formats.


I’m confused, why would I want to play a format that has nothing unique about it (EDH), no prize support (type 2), no constantly changing landscape (type 2) and no powerful cards (vintage and legacy)? There is a reason extended has never been anything but a PTQ format. Altering which sets are involved won’t change the issue of a midrange format not adding anything to existing formats.
Extended/Overextended are aimed at the imaginary player that has extra time to play another format, but for some reason the current ones aren’t enough (vintage, legacy, standard, draft, sealed and casual/EDH).

I know this sounds very negative, but I really don’t understand the push for overextended. I play a lot of magic, and don’t know anyone who complains there are not enough formats for them to play.

I am glad that you raise those objections. I do not think they sound overly negative at all. If anything, they are legitimate questions and anyone should be skeptical about them. Let me try and address some of them quickly:

1. "why would I want to play a format that has nothing unique about it (EDH)"
Overextended has a number of unique factors that differentiate it from other formats. It is different from Standard (and the current defunct Extended) in that it is an Eternal format. The cards from Invasion onwards never rotate out, so collections are always valuable and potentially useful.
So how is it different from the other 2 Eternal formats? It is clearly different from Vintage in its power level, and that doesn't need too much explanation. Vintage is a more expensive, more high powered, and generally inaccessible format for new players.
What about different from Legacy? For one, because it starts later, a lot of "legacy staple" strategies and cards are out. That means the Overextended metagame is full of unique decks from previous Standard and Extended seasons. Without cards like Wasteland, Force of Will, and Lion's Eye Diamond, Overextended has a lot of strategies that are simply not viable in Legacy but are still tons of fun to play and play against. Dragonstorm, Slide, Living Death, Bubble Hulk, Enduring Ideal, Mono Black Control, Tron, Tooth and Nail, White Weenie, Pyschatog, All In Red, and a huge variety of other decks (too many to gather here) al lbecome available. Indeed, with the proper banlist, Overextended hopes to become home to MORE viable archetypes than even Legacy has.
Equally important, Overextended is not burdened by the Reserve List. That means Wizards can print cards to drive popularity and keep prices tame. It means that Tier 1 decks do not need to cost as much as down payments on cars. It means that more new players will come with cheaper decks and cards, and more tournament and competitive options will exist. It means that Overextended players can easily have multiple decks that they like to run, because most decks are relatively accessible (financially speaking).
These are all reasons that Overextended is its own unique format.

2. "no prize support (type 2)"?
Legacy, EDH, 2HG, and other "unofficial player-created formats" all started off without formal prize support. But with enough participation and some small tournament entry fees, local organizers and independent players could easily have their own tournaments with prizes. With time, this would grow, and a prize structure would ultimately exist. Unlike Legacy, which will never be a Pro Tour format, Overextended fully intends to become THE Eternal format of choice for the PTQ scene.

3. "no constantly changing landscape (type 2)"?
The landscape would change just as much as Legacy metagames change with time. Legacy has certainly gone through many metagame shifts away certain archetypes and towards new ones. Overextended, being an Eternal format with a banlist and new cards entering, would also fluctuate. Player philosophies and preferences would also drive these changes. A well managed banlist would prevent any one archetype from becoming degenerate and unfun, and would ensure that not all players immediately adopted the single most dominant decklist in the format.

4. "no powerful cards (vintage and legacy)"?
In the case of Overextended, you would trade a little bit of the broken power of some cards (LED, Ritual, FoW, Wasteland) for a more diverse metagame with more archetypes. There would still be powerful cards (Chrome Mox, Aether Vial, Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize, Entomb), but there just would not be some of the most overpowered ones.
Also, a new metagame would necessarily force people to rethink what "powerful" means. Standard players view Batterskull as tremendously powerful, and they are quite happy with that definition of power. Extended players view Cryptic Command as immensely powerful, and that is their level of power (MUC in Legacy also uses it, but it has hardly broken into any tier of "powerful cards). Overextended players would have their own definition of power that was closer to Legacy, but would be more encompassing of new cards. There would, with proper banlist management, be a diverse metagame with lots of viable decks, all of them using "powerful" cards.

These are some of the reasons to play Overextended and to invest both time and energy into its early creation days. I hope these words have been helpful, and let me know if I was ever unclear/wrong/etc.

-ktkenshinx-

[Pastorofmuppets]

Dredge has been banned into oblivion. Sounds like a bunch of your development staff are a bunch of whiny combo haters.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think the basic argument is correct. Without Wizards being willing to break the reserve list, Overextended is simply an inevitable necessity.

I disagree with the notion that this would "supplemment" Legacy; it would clearly be competition that would, if pushed hard enough, kill Legacy as a format.

It may be the next best alternative, though.

I think it would be important to start at Masques and include promo sets released after Masques, so as to widen the card pool as much as possible. Hopefully they would also reprint Force of Will, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach and StP in this format (and Priest of Titania, Show and Tell, High Tide, etc., basically anything that's not on the Reserved list and sees play).

Legacy probably isn't salvageable as a competitive format in the long-term.

But it can be rebuilt.

We can make it better. Stronger. Cheaper at any rate.

(The alternate solution at this point would be to merge the banned and reserved lists.)

PS: Why would you want another site for this? Just use The Source.

[ktkenshinx]

Dredge has been banned into oblivion. Sounds like a bunch of your development staff are a bunch of whiny combo haters.

The banlist is not set in stone. i fully agree with your statement above though. I for one hate the current banning of Dredge off the map. Does some element of the deck need to be banned? Probably, sure. Get rid of Bridge and call it a day. The deck is still viable without it, and DR/Narco have applications in other decks.

With enough thoughtful input from thoughtful players, the banlist will take an ideal form. There will be no arbitrary DCI bannings and hidden reasoning processes. Players will speak for players and the banlist will be made right with time.


It may be the next best alternative, though.

I think it would be important to start at Masques and include promo sets released after Masques, so as to widen the card pool as much as possible. Hopefully they would also reprint Force of Will, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach and StP in this format (and Priest of Titania, Show and Tell, High Tide, etc., basically anything that's not on the Reserved list and sees play).

I would personally be fine with an MM cutoff. I certainly advocated for that pretty hard a bunch of months ago. I think that the problem with this cutoff, however, is that it relies on Wizards printing cards. All of the ones you mentioned should probably be reprinted, folded into a new format, and that could be a "new Legacy" of sorts. But we players, at a grassroots internet level, can't really do that with any legitimacy.

The format should be able to stand alone, survive, and even thrive, with just Invasion forward cards and a healthy banlist. The "glues" that hold Legacy together will probably not be needed in the Overextended world (IF that banlist gets constructed in an intelligent way).

As to why there is another site, I think that Mr. Verhey just wanted to separate it from Legacy as much as possible. I for one intend on discussing the format in as many venues as possible.

-ktkenshinx-

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The banlist is not set in stone. i fully agree with your statement above though. I for one hate the current banning of Dredge off the map. Does some element of the deck need to be banned? Probably, sure. Get rid of Bridge and call it a day. The deck is still viable without it, and DR/Narco have applications in other decks.

With enough thoughtful input from thoughtful players, the banlist will take an ideal form. There will be no arbitrary DCI bannings and hidden reasoning processes. Players will speak for players and the banlist will be made right with time.



I would personally be fine with an MM cutoff. I certainly advocated for that pretty hard a bunch of months ago. I think that the problem with this cutoff, however, is that it relies on Wizards printing cards. All of the ones you mentioned should probably be reprinted, folded into a new format, and that could be a "new Legacy" of sorts. But we players, at a grassroots internet level, can't really do that with any legitimacy.

The format should be able to stand alone, survive, and even thrive, with just Invasion forward cards and a healthy banlist. The "glues" that hold Legacy together will probably not be needed in the Overextended world (IF that banlist gets constructed in an intelligent way).

As to why there is another site, I think that Mr. Verhey just wanted to separate it from Legacy as much as possible. I for one intend on discussing the format in as many venues as possible.

-ktkenshinx-

In what reality do the people behind this live where Invasion cards are accessible but Masques is somehow out of reach.

I mean I could understand a cut off at like Mirrodin or Ravnica as trying to actually reduce costs, but there's way too many expensive cards in Invasion (and Odyssey) for this to be buyable. I mean Christ, then they go ahead and unban Entomb too.

[swoop]

Sounds bad.

[jamesh]

no chance

[Gheizen64]

The problem of cutting at Invasion instead of Masques, is, simply put, that it miss the point of such a format anyway.
Why people started playing legacy? Because after Extended died (the big rotation that removed duals, wasteland, etc...), new Extended was completely different and you couldn't play your old decks anymore, while Vintage was too costly. People didn't want to spend too much time and money costantly buying new packs and switching decks. This was some years ago. People had some duals, dark rituals, all those nice cards and whatever, and wanted to play with them, they really wanted to continue to dark ritual into hippies T1 and all that. Now the problem is that too many people wanted to play such a format where you could, more or less, continue to play your favorite deck of years ago, so price got out of control, and, due to the ******** list, this problem isn't solvable easily. Now what? If you want to salvage as much as possible, you cut as the very end of the ******** list, so as much people as possible can continue playing their favourite deck. If you remove Ritual and Brainstorm the format COULD be more varied (not that i'm all that sure, even with ritual storm still haven't got LED, petal, AdN is more costly when your mana bases hurt like shit etc... not to say even without FoW you still have MM + Daze), but you also remove one of the biggest incentive for people to actually play a format, that is, to play a deck they like.

[ktkenshinx]

In what reality do the people behind this live where Invasion cards are accessible but Masques is somehow out of reach.

I mean I could understand a cut off at like Mirrodin or Ravnica as trying to actually reduce costs, but there's way too many expensive cards in Invasion (and Odyssey) for this to be buyable. I mean Christ, then they go ahead and unban Entomb too.

For paper alone, then Invasion is probably no less/more accessible than MM. For MTGO, however, Invasion was the first set that came out, and a lot of people have Invasion/Odyssey/etc. cards sitting around that they want to use. The rationale would be that this is a strong MTGO eternal format.

If the format got proper official support from Wizards, cards could be reprinted because the Reserve List does not hold the format back. In the past, this has been sort of a dream by us Legacy players/Overextended hopefuls. But Wizards recently printed the "entry tournament level" decks for standard, with 2x Stoneforge plus other cards! This shows that Wizards is more than happy to print "expensive" cards to increase accessibility. Overextended would strongly benefit from this.

As to the price of these cards, the Invasion block cards are really not all that expensive. The vast majority are under a dollar, and even the most expensive cards don't crack $5 in most cases. Odyssey cards are certainly a bit more expensive, but even there, the lack of Reserve List holdback means that they will be attainable by average players.


Sounds bad.
I am sure that this was said many, many times about Legacy, EDH, and 2HG in their infancy. Thankfully, some people did not listen to such naysayers.

-ktkenshinx-

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, right, online. I guess people aren't exactly clamoring for Masques block online.

Well, if the format picked up steam, that would actually get people interested in playing Masques, since it brings in a lot of that would be widely played; Daze, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, maybe Port, Tangle Wire and Food Chain.

The problem there being that the best cards are mostly common.

[Koby]

For paper alone, then Invasion is probably no less/more accessible than MM. For MTGO, however, Invasion was the first set that came out, and a lot of people have Invasion/Odyssey/etc. cards sitting around that they want to use. The rationale would be that this is a strong MTGO eternal format.


MTGO has it's own reserve list policy - no OOP set may be released (promo events) more than 1% of existing sales per year.

Compounded with the low availability of actual playables,
Pernicious Deed [AP] Buy:33 Sell:39
Vindicate [AP] Buy:61 Sell:sold out (supernovabot)

Makes for another format hurt by high prices on highly desirable cards.

MTGO has it's own problems with making formats playable, and most of them have nothing to do with the actual cards themselves, but rather that lack of good tournaments and player support.

So, no I don't think Overextended is the best solution to the middle ground between Standard and Legacy.

MTGO already has the following formats:
Pauper (commons only)
Standard Singleton (60c)
100 Card Singleton (pseudo-Legacy)
Kaleidoscope (gold cards only)

Of these, only Pauper has a large penetration. Extended is still regarded as a red-headed stepchild which no one plays because it's been butchered so many times in the last 12 months, and only relevant for 3 months out of the year for PTQ-grinders. I don't see how adding another MTGO format that mirrors paper will stir up support online.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

MTGO has it's own reserve list policy - no OOP set may be released (promo events) more than 1% of existing sales per year.

Is this written up in a big formal statement? If not they can just break it.

[Koby]

Is this written up in a big formal statement? If not they can just break it.


Once Wizards of the Coast declares that an online card set is off sale, we will never sell the product again. We will, however, make a very small amount of the product available for use in limited tournaments and as prizes as we deem appropriate. The amount of an out-of-print set that we release in a year will be less than 1% of the initial online print run of that product. Print run is defined as the product purchased in at the Magic Online store as well as product awarded as prizes between the onsale date and offsale date of the product in question.

They can also just renege on this agreement seemingly at will too. But for the Classic set releases (MVW, Tempest, etc) they open up the product in the store and offer it at retail for drafters.

[flrn]

This time, it is not just a "rumor", because the player strategy is different. Instead of hoping for a rumored format to appear, players who WANT the format to appear are going to support it off the books. Just like EDH and 2HG (and Legacy, years ago) started out as player supported and maintained formats, so too will Overextended. Wizards does care about these formats when they attain enough popularity; this is clear in their formal sanctioning of all of the above formats.

Given the current popularity of Legacy, if they would care as much as you guess, they would throw away the reserve list and finally reprint legacy staples. I don't care about losing some money due to reprints and neither does anyone I have spoken to about that topic.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Given the current popularity of Legacy, if they would care as much as you guess, they would throw away the reserve list and finally reprint legacy staples. I don't care about losing some money due to reprints and neither does anyone I have spoken to about that topic.

They were clearly planning to do this last year, but did an about face at the last moment and tightened the reserve list instead of striking it down. The whys and witherfores are up in the air but it doesn't look like the reserve list is going anywhere.

[lorddotm]

I don't get why we need a replacement for Extended, why not replace the PTQ format with something fun, like Teams or 2HG (Teams could be Sealed, Standard, Legacy, that would be really interesting...)

As far as a replacement for Legacy, nothing will replace it, they need to break the reserve list.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Most pros hate team formats.

I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason not to do a team PTQ season, though.

[android]

I'm not one to gripe about the cost barrier of Legacy or Vintage. I realize that I'm not in a position to financially support Vintage and I don't really get into proxies (being anal about pay to play), so I just don't play the format. Legacy offers less challenges financially as I have ample archetypes to choose from spanning a pretty wide budget spectrum. In addition, I have a pretty good collection of old cards.

Anyhow, I am a Legacy player if anything. Maybe closer to the casual side than the competitive side. I've been dealing with the same thing as everyone else with regard to the ever increasing cost of entry into the format. Especially if you throw in the "deck of the week" factor because all those Natural Orders, Show and Tells, Portal cards, etc. that I threw out years ago are suddenly required to play and win.

So when it comes to a new format that will somehow solve this problem for everyone, naturally I'm willing to listen. Many people before me have suggested alternate formats; some good, most bad. Extended, which was an official format, sucked ass if you ask me. I can understand Standard which is a controlled metagame/marketing ploy, but Extended was just like wannabe Legacy for little kids who cried because their Standard decks rotated. So enough with that idea for a format.

I think if people want an affordable format with diversity, it should really be quite simple. Take the Legacy cardpool minus the rares/mythics and use a restricted list much like Vintage. Maybe you want to restrict cards like FoW, Standstill, SDT, etc. Go back to 40 card decklists and BAM, you have an awesome format. I don't know why people want to go exclude half the Magic cardpool with the only reason being fear of old mechanics or to somehow keep the budget down. Face it, you're losing out on all the old awesome cards.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say that anything that resembles Extended is shit IMO.

[ktkenshinx]

Given the current popularity of Legacy, if they would care as much as you guess, they would throw away the reserve list and finally reprint legacy staples. I don't care about losing some money due to reprints and neither does anyone I have spoken to about that topic.


I don't get why we need a replacement for Extended, why not replace the PTQ format with something fun, like Teams or 2HG (Teams could be Sealed, Standard, Legacy, that would be really interesting...)

As far as a replacement for Legacy, nothing will replace it, they need to break the reserve list.

I too hate the Reserve List. But I am not saying anything new when I add that Wizards also hates it. But for a slew of legal reasons related more to Hasbro and less to Wizards as a gaming group, the Reserve List is here to stay. This issue was recently tackled in force over 2010, and the answer was a resounding "fuck you" from Hasbro. I specify "hasbro" because I know that MaRo and Aaron Forsythe and pals would be happy to see it gone. But they can't for a variety of reasons, and that's the way that it is.

It is better to give Wizards a positive incentive for doing something about Eternal format accessibility, rather than a negative one. Attacking the reserve list is destructive, and it has failed multiple times in the past. Building up a new format is creative, and it has succeeded multiple times in the past. It represents a better route to the objective of Magic accessibility and format diversity that lots of people hope for.

Overextended, or whatever it will come to be called, represents an accessible, cheaper, and Reserve List-free Eternal format that Wizards can support for the rest of Magic's history. Whether the cutoff is at MM or at Invasion is for players to decide. Just because Gavin Vehey decided it was Invasion, does not mean that should be the final decision. Players can speak up on this and make their voices heard, helping to create a format that direly needs creation. The same goes for a banlist.

-ktkenshinx-

[dahcmai]

I'd be more interested in a format that just doesn't have the reserve list cards if they just plain aren't going to break it.


I played extended during that boring starting era. It was awful. Invasion and those older sets don't exactly add a whole lot and you just end up playing overzealous standard decks which are boring as sin which is exactly what overextended would be in the end.

Arabian Nights, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Mirage, Ice age, and the other older sets add so much flavor it's not even funny. It's kicking out half of the printed cards of the game to have this and half the appeal of Legacy is being able to play all the old stuff.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Merging the banned and reserve list does look like an increasingly attractive option.

Oh, God, I'd lose Humility though.

I don't even know what to do anymore.

[xXxBretWeedxXx]

Plus if you combine the reserved list with the banned list it would mean less FoW's so you could play combo to your heart's content. Not that FoW will be banned but half the people would still think it is.

[Koby]

Force of Will is not on the reserve list.

[TsumiBand]

I can definitely appreciate wanting to have Invasion/Odyssey Block in an Eternal format - I started playing the game during Invasion/Odyssey Type 2 - but to be fair the 'arbitrary cutoff' also happens to coincide with the artwork change of the borders of Magic cards. Which also happened to coincide with a few other changes (shuffling the color pie around (very publicly talking about the reasoning anyway) and doing things like removing staples like Counterspell from regular rotation), etc. So the cutoff isn't really as arbitrary as it's made to sound.

Insofar as trying to create a new format, rather close to the same time as one is being kicked around by WotC, I just imagine that trying to rally support for this version of OverExtended would be difficult if Modern actually got pushed onto paper Magic. My guess is most players would go "On one hand I have this format which I can apparently bring to FNM and is sanctioned.. on the other, I have this other format which isn't sanctioned, determines its own banned list and runs its own events... and lets me play my Spiritmongers. Hmmm, this sucks."

[DragoFireheart]

Force of Will is not on the reserve list.

This could be pretty relevant. Let's look at what IS on the reserve list:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Card Name Card Set
Ancestral Recall Limited Edition
Badlands Limited Edition
Bayou Limited Edition
Black Lotus Limited Edition
Blaze of Glory Limited Edition
Braingeyser Limited Edition
Chaos Orb Limited Edition
Contract from Below Limited Edition
Copy Artifact Limited Edition
Cyclopean Tomb Limited Edition
Darkpact Limited Edition
Demonic Attorney Limited Edition
Demonic Hordes Limited Edition
Farmstead Limited Edition
Fastbond Limited Edition
Forcefield Limited Edition
Fork Limited Edition
Gauntlet of Might Limited Edition
Granite Gargoyle Limited Edition
Illusionary Mask Limited Edition
Kudzu Limited Edition
Lich Limited Edition
Mox Emerald Limited Edition
Mox Jet Limited Edition
Mox Pearl Limited Edition
Mox Ruby Limited Edition
Mox Sapphire Limited Edition
Natural Selection Limited Edition
Plateau (Brudi) Limited Edition
Plateau (Tucker) Limited Edition
Raging River Limited Edition
Roc of Kher Ridges Limited Edition
Rock Hydra Limited Edition
Savannah Limited Edition
Scrubland Limited Edition
Sedge Troll Limited Edition
Taiga Limited Edition
Time Vault Limited Edition
Time Walk Limited Edition
Timetwister Limited Edition
Tropical Island Limited Edition
Tundra Limited Edition
Two-Headed Giant of Foriys Limited Edition
Underground Sea Limited Edition
Vesuvan Doppelganger Limited Edition
Veteran Bodyguard Limited Edition
Volcanic Island Limited Edition
Wheel of Fortune Limited Edition
Word of Command Limited Edition
Ali from Cairo Arabian Nights
Bazaar of Baghdad Arabian Nights
City in a Bottle Arabian Nights
Diamond Valley Arabian Nights
Drop of Honey Arabian Nights
Elephant Graveyard Arabian Nights
Guardian Beast Arabian Nights
Ifh-Biff Efreet Arabian Nights
Island of Wak-Wak Arabian Nights
Jihad Arabian Nights
Juzam Djinn Arabian Nights
Khabal Ghoul Arabian Nights
King Suleiman Arabian Nights
Library of Alexandria Arabian Nights
Merchant Ship Arabian Nights
Old Man of the Sea Arabian Nights
Pyramids Arabian Nights
Ring of Ma'ruf Arabian Nights
Sandals of Abdallah Arabian Nights
Serendib Djinn Arabian Nights
Shahrazad Arabian Nights
Singing Tree Arabian Nights
Argivian Archaeologist Antiquities
Candelabra of Tawnos Antiquities
Citanul Druid Antiquities
Damping Field Antiquities
Gaea's Avenger Antiquities
Gate to Phyrexia Antiquities
Golgothian Sylex Antiquities
Haunting Wind Antiquities
Martyrs of Korlis Antiquities
Mightstone Antiquities
Mishra's Workshop Antiquities
Power Artifact Antiquities
Powerleech Antiquities
Su-Chi Antiquities
Tawnos's Coffin Antiquities
Transmute Artifact Antiquities
Urza's Miter Antiquities
Weakstone Antiquities
The Abyss Legends
Acid Rain Legends
Adun Oakenshield Legends
Al-abara's Carpet Legends
Alchor's Tomb Legends
All Hallow's Eve Legends
Angus Mackenzie Legends
Bartel Runeaxe Legends
Boris Devilboon Legends
Caverns of Despair Legends
Chains of Mephistopheles Legends
Cleanse Legends
Disharmony Legends
Divine Intervention Legends
Elder Spawn Legends
Eureka Legends
Falling Star Legends
Field of Dreams Legends
Firestorm Phoenix Legends
Forethought Amulet Legends
Gosta Dirk Legends
Gravity Sphere Legends
Gwendlyn Di Corci Legends
Halfdane Legends
Hazezon Tamar Legends
Hellfire Legends
Imprison Legends
In the Eye of Chaos Legends
Infinite Authority Legends
Invoke Prejudice Legends
Jacques le Vert Legends
Jovial Evil Legends
Knowledge Vault Legends
Kobold Overlord Legends
Lady Caleria Legends
Lady Evangela Legends
Land Equilibrium Legends
Life Matrix Legends
Lifeblood Legends
Living Plane Legends
Livonya Silone Legends
Mana Matrix Legends
Master of the Hunt Legends
Mirror Universe Legends
Moat Legends
Mold Demon Legends
Nether Void Legends
North Star Legends
Nova Pentacle Legends
Pixie Queen Legends
Planar Gate Legends
Quarum Trench Gnomes Legends
Ragnar Legends
Ramses Overdark Legends
Rapid Fire Legends
Rasputin Dreamweaver Legends
Reverberation Legends
Ring of Immortals Legends
Rohgahh of Kher Keep Legends
Spinal Villain Legends
Spiritual Sanctuary Legends
Storm World Legends
Sword of the Ages Legends
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Legends
Telekinesis Legends
Tetsuo Umezawa Legends
Thunder Spirit Legends
Tuknir Deathlock Legends
Typhoon Legends
Ur-Drago Legends
Willow Satyr Legends
Wood Elemental Legends
City of Shadows The Dark
Cleansing The Dark
Eternal Flame The Dark
Exorcist The Dark
Frankenstein's Monster The Dark
Goblin Wizard The Dark
Grave Robbers The Dark
Hidden Path The Dark
Knights of Thorn The Dark
Lurker The Dark
Mana Vortex The Dark
Martyr's Cry The Dark
Nameless Race The Dark
Niall Silvain The Dark
Preacher The Dark
Psychic Allergy The Dark
Scarwood Bandits The Dark
Season of the Witch The Dark
Sorrow's Path The Dark
Stone Calendar The Dark
Tracker The Dark
Worms of the Earth The Dark
Wormwood Treefolk The Dark
Aeolipile Fallen Empires
Balm of Restoration Fallen Empires
Conch Horn Fallen Empires
Delif's Cube Fallen Empires
Draconian Cylix Fallen Empires
Dwarven Armorer Fallen Empires
Ebon Praetor Fallen Empires
Elven Lyre Fallen Empires
Elvish Farmer Fallen Empires
Fungal Bloom Fallen Empires
Goblin Flotilla Fallen Empires
Hand of Justice Fallen Empires
Homarid Shaman Fallen Empires
Icatian Lieutenant Fallen Empires
Icatian Skirmishers Fallen Empires
Implements of Sacrifice Fallen Empires
Rainbow Vale Fallen Empires
Ring of Renewal Fallen Empires
River Merfolk Fallen Empires
Spirit Shield Fallen Empires
Thelon's Curse Fallen Empires
Thelonite Monk Fallen Empires
Thrull Champion Fallen Empires
Tourach's Gate Fallen Empires
Vodalian Knights Fallen Empires
Vodalian War Machine Fallen Empires
Zelyon Sword Fallen Empires
Aegis of the Meek Ice Age
Altar of Bone Ice Age
Amulet of Quoz Ice Age
Balduvian Hydra Ice Age
Blizzard Ice Age
Brand of Ill Omen Ice Age
Call to Arms Ice Age
Chromatic Armor Ice Age
Earthlink Ice Age
Energy Storm Ice Age
Flow of Maggots Ice Age
Formation Ice Age
Fyndhorn Pollen Ice Age
General Jarkeld Ice Age
Glacial Crevasse Ice Age
Gravebind Ice Age
Halls of Mist Ice Age
Hot Springs Ice Age
Ice Cauldron Ice Age
Illusionary Presence Ice Age
Illusions of Grandeur Ice Age
Infernal Denizen Ice Age
Jester's Mask Ice Age
Kjeldoran Knight Ice Age
Kjeldoran Phalanx Ice Age
Land Cap Ice Age
Lava Tubes Ice Age
Lightning Blow Ice Age
Marton Stromgald Ice Age
Mercenaries Ice Age
Mesmeric Trance Ice Age
Minion of Tevesh Szat Ice Age
Mountain Titan Ice Age
Mudslide Ice Age
Musician Ice Age
Mystic Might Ice Age
Polar Kraken Ice Age
Reality Twist Ice Age
River Delta Ice Age
Ritual of Subdual Ice Age
Skeleton Ship Ice Age
Snowblind Ice Age
Soldevi Golem Ice Age
Spoils of Evil Ice Age
Spoils of War Ice Age
Storm Spirit Ice Age
Timberline Ridge Ice Age
Trailblazer Ice Age
Veldt Ice Age
Winter's Chill Ice Age
An-Zerrin Ruins Homelands
Anaba Ancestor Homelands
Anaba Spirit Crafter Homelands
Apocalypse Chime Homelands
Autumn Willow Homelands
Aysen Crusader Homelands
Aysen Highway Homelands
Baki's Curse Homelands
Baron Sengir Homelands
Beast Walkers Homelands
Black Carriage Homelands
Chain Stasis Homelands
Daughter of Autumn Homelands
Didgeridoo Homelands
Dwarven Pony Homelands
Dwarven Sea Clan Homelands
Faerie Noble Homelands
Grandmother Sengir Homelands
Hazduhr the Abbot Homelands
Heart Wolf Homelands
Koskun Falls Homelands
Leeches Homelands
Mammoth Harness Homelands
Marjhan Homelands
Mystic Decree Homelands
Narwhal Homelands
Reveka, Wizard Savant Homelands
Rysorian Badger Homelands
Serra Aviary Homelands
Soraya the Falconer Homelands
Timmerian Fiends Homelands
Veldrane of Sengir Homelands
Wall of Kelp Homelands
Willow Priestess Homelands
Winter Sky Homelands
Ashnod's Cylix Alliances
Balduvian Trading Post Alliances
Chaos Harlequin Alliances
Dystopia Alliances
Fatal Lore Alliances
Floodwater Dam Alliances
Gargantuan Gorilla Alliances
Gustha's Scepter Alliances
Heart of Yavimaya Alliances
Helm of Obedience Alliances
Ivory Gargoyle Alliances
Kaysa Alliances
Keeper of Tresserhorn Alliances
Kjeldoran Outpost Alliances
Krovikan Horror Alliances
Lake of the Dead Alliances
Lodestone Bauble Alliances
Lord of Tresserhorn Alliances
Misfortune Alliances
Nature's Wrath Alliances
Omen of Fire Alliances
Phantasmal Sphere Alliances
Phelddagrif Alliances
Phyrexian Devourer Alliances
Phyrexian Portal Alliances
Ritual of the Machine Alliances
Rogue Skycaptain Alliances
Royal Decree Alliances
Sheltered Valley Alliances
Soldevi Digger Alliances
Soldevi Excavations Alliances
Splintering Wind Alliances
Sustaining Spirit Alliances
Sworn Defender Alliances
Thawing Glaciers Alliances
Thought Lash Alliances
Tidal Control Alliances
Tornado Alliances
Varchild's War-Riders Alliances
Wandering Mage Alliances
Winter's Night Alliances
Acidic Dagger Mirage
Afiya Grove Mirage
Amulet of Unmaking Mirage
Asmira, Holy Avenger Mirage
Auspicious Ancestor Mirage
Barreling Attack Mirage
Bazaar of Wonders Mirage
Benthic Djinn Mirage
Bone Mask Mirage
Brushwagg Mirage
Cadaverous Bloom Mirage
Canopy Dragon Mirage
Carrion Mirage
Catacomb Dragon Mirage
Chaosphere Mirage
Circle of Despair Mirage
Cycle of Life Mirage
Discordant Spirit Mirage
Divine Retribution Mirage
Emberwilde Caliph Mirage
Emberwilde Djinn Mirage
Energy Bolt Mirage
Energy Vortex Mirage
Forsaken Wastes Mirage
Frenetic Efreet Mirage
Grim Feast Mirage
Hakim, Loreweaver Mirage
Hall of Gemstone Mirage
Harbinger of Night Mirage
Hivis of the Scale Mirage
Jabari's Influence Mirage
Jungle Patrol Mirage
Kukemssa Pirates Mirage
Leering Gargoyle Mirage
Lion's Eye Diamond Mirage
Lure of Prey Mirage
Malignant Growth Mirage
Mangara's Tome Mirage
Mindbender Spores Mirage
Misers' Cage Mirage
Mist Dragon Mirage
Natural Balance Mirage
Null Chamber Mirage
Paupers' Cage Mirage
Phyrexian Dreadnought Mirage
Phyrexian Purge Mirage
Phyrexian Tribute Mirage
Political Trickery Mirage
Preferred Selection Mirage
Prismatic Lace Mirage
Purgatory Mirage
Purraj of Urborg Mirage
Rashida Scalebane Mirage
Razor Pendulum Mirage
Reflect Damage Mirage
Reparations Mirage
Rock Basilisk Mirage
Sawback Manticore Mirage
Seeds of Innocence Mirage
Shallow Grave Mirage
Shauku, Endbringer Mirage
Shimmer Mirage
Sidar Jabari Mirage
Soul Echo Mirage
Spectral Guardian Mirage
Spirit of the Night Mirage
Subterranean Spirit Mirage
Tainted Specter Mirage
Taniwha Mirage
Teeka's Dragon Mirage
Teferi's Imp Mirage
Teferi's Isle Mirage
Telim'Tor Mirage
Telim'Tor's Edict Mirage
Tombstone Stairwell Mirage
Torrent of Lava Mirage
Unfulfilled Desires Mirage
Ventifact Bottle Mirage
Warping Wurm Mirage
Wellspring Mirage
Yare Mirage
Zirilan of the Claw Mirage
Zuberi, Golden Feather Mirage
Aku Djinn Visions
Anvil of Bogardan Visions
Bogardan Phoenix Visions
Breathstealer's Crypt Visions
Chronatog Visions
City of Solitude Visions
Corrosion Visions
Diamond Kaleidoscope Visions
Elkin Lair Visions
Equipoise Visions
Eye of Singularity Visions
Femeref Enchantress Visions
Firestorm Hellkite Visions
Flooded Shoreline Visions
Forbidden Ritual Visions
Griffin Canyon Visions
Guiding Spirit Visions
Kaervek's Spite Visions
Katabatic Winds Visions
Kookus Visions
Lichenthrope Visions
Lightning Cloud Visions
Ogre Enforcer Visions
Phyrexian Marauder Visions
Pillar Tombs of Aku Visions
Pygmy Hippo Visions
Quirion Druid Visions
Rainbow Efreet Visions
Retribution of the Meek Visions
Righteous War Visions
Sands of Time Visions
Squandered Resources Visions
Suleiman's Legacy Visions
Teferi's Realm Visions
Three Wishes Visions
Tithe Visions
Triangle of War Visions
Undiscovered Paradise Visions
Viashivan Dragon Visions
Zhalfirin Crusader Visions
Abeyance Weatherlight
Aboroth Weatherlight
Ancestral Knowledge Weatherlight
Avizoa Weatherlight
Bone Dancer Weatherlight
Bosium Strip Weatherlight
Bubble Matrix Weatherlight
Debt of Loyalty Weatherlight
Dwarven Thaumaturgist Weatherlight
Ertai's Familiar Weatherlight
Firestorm Weatherlight
Fungus Elemental Weatherlight
Gallowbraid Weatherlight
Goblin Bomb Weatherlight
Heart of Bogardan Weatherlight
Heat Stroke Weatherlight
Infernal Tribute Weatherlight
Inner Sanctum Weatherlight
Liege of the Hollows Weatherlight
Lotus Vale Weatherlight
Mana Web Weatherlight
Maraxus of Keld Weatherlight
Morinfen Weatherlight
Mwonvuli Ooze Weatherlight
Null Rod Weatherlight
Paradigm Shift Weatherlight
Peacekeeper Weatherlight
Pendrell Mists Weatherlight
Psychic Vortex Weatherlight
Scorched Ruins Weatherlight
Thran Tome Weatherlight
Tolarian Entrancer Weatherlight
Tolarian Serpent Weatherlight
Urborg Justice Weatherlight
Urborg Stalker Weatherlight
Wave of Terror Weatherlight
Well of Knowledge Weatherlight
Winding Canyons Weatherlight
Xanthic Statue Weatherlight
Aluren Tempest
Apocalypse Tempest
Avenging Angel Tempest
Commander Greven il-Vec Tempest
Corpse Dance Tempest
Cursed Scroll Tempest
Earthcraft Tempest
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves Tempest
Escaped Shapeshifter Tempest
Humility Tempest
Intuition Tempest
Meditate Tempest
Orim, Samite Healer Tempest
Recycle Tempest
Sarcomancy Tempest
Selenia, Dark Angel Tempest
Crovax the Cursed Stronghold
Dream Halls Stronghold
Mox Diamond Stronghold
Silver Wyvern Stronghold
Sliver Queen Stronghold
Volrath's Shapeshifter Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold Stronghold
City of Traitors Exodus
Dominating Licid Exodus
Ertai, Wizard Adept Exodus
Exalted Dragon Exodus
Hatred Exodus
Mind Over Matter Exodus
Oath of Ghouls Exodus
Recurring Nightmare Exodus
Survival of the Fittest Exodus
Argothian Wurm Urza's Saga
Barrin, Master Wizard Urza's Saga
Citanul Centaurs Urza's Saga
Gaea's Cradle Urza's Saga
Gilded Drake Urza's Saga
Great Whale Urza's Saga
Herald of Serra Urza's Saga
Karn, Silver Golem Urza's Saga
Lifeline Urza's Saga
Lightning Dragon Urza's Saga
Morphling Urza's Saga
Opal Archangel Urza's Saga
Serra's Sanctum Urza's Saga
Tolarian Academy Urza's Saga
Temporal Aperture Urza's Saga
Time Spiral Urza's Saga
Yawgmoth's Will Urza's Saga
Zephid Urza's Saga
Deranged Hermit Urza's Legacy
Grim Monolith Urza's Legacy
Memory Jar Urza's Legacy
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer Urza's Legacy
Palinchron Urza's Legacy
Radiant, Archangel Urza's Legacy
Ring of Gix Urza's Legacy
Second Chance Urza's Legacy
Weatherseed Treefolk Urza's Legacy
Academy Rector Urza's Destiny
Carnival of Souls Urza's Destiny
Covetous Dragon Urza's Destiny
Donate Urza's Destiny
Masticore Urza's Destiny
Metalworker Urza's Destiny
Opalescence Urza's Destiny
Phyrexian Negator Urza's Destiny
Powder Keg Urza's Destiny
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary Urza's Destiny
Replenish Urza's Destiny
Treachery Urza's Destiny
Yavimaya Hollow Urza's Destiny
Yawgmoth's Bargain Urza's Destiny



I highlighted some of the more commonly used cards.

Most of the stuff we lose are dual lands, niche cards for other decks (Humility, Lion's Eye Diamond) and other random junk.

If the reserved listed was banned, we would not lose:

Force of Will
Wasteland
Brainstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Natural Order
Dark Ritual


Those are some of the more commonly played cards that are NOT on the reserve list and could easily see re-prints of some scale. Brainstorm and Dark Ritual were reprinted in the Ice Age Cold-Snap reprint. StP was reprinted in that Elspeth vs Tezz planeswalker set. Why couldn't that happen with the other cards?

[Pippin]

This format is doomed from the start if Wizards doesn't support it heavily. By supporting I mean they need to reprint cards constantly and have a strong team that will monitor the secondary market and react with random preconstructed products (like PCD with Mystics in it) every time a card breaks the imaginary barrier of card's maximum price.

If this doesn't happen, then Overextended failed in what it was supposed to solve in first place - to have an eternal format that has enough card availability to reach PTQ/PT status.

For example, if Invasion is taken as a starting point - what will prevent expensive decks as soon as the format becomes official? Onslaught fetches are already breaking $20-25 mark, Goyf is $60, etc... What will happen with ravnica shocklands and other cards like Dark Confidant? There will be 1000$ decks all over again and only people that would be pleased would be those that acquired cards like shoclands right now, while they are still 5$ each... Those that will need them in future will protest on forums and demand bans due to costs or mass reprints of Goyfs at common rarity so that everyone can play cheap tier 1 decks.
Doesn't that sound familiar? It's just like Legacy and situation with FoW or Wasteland that aren't on the reserved list... Format would be Legacy lite, would have almost same problems (deck costs) and would miss loads of great, flavourfull cards of Magic's past...

I hope I'll be proved otherwise and that all the top decks will cost just few hundred $, with most powerfull cards being in 10$ range... but somehow I'm sure that won't happen, knowing Wizards and what CCG means.
Good luck, though, to those that will leave Legacy for Overextended. Their departure should help in lowering the prices of Legacy staples and make breaking into format much easier for new people.

[Pastorofmuppets]

We can make it better. Stronger. Cheaper at any rate.



Except that I don't think Wizard's has any plans to reprint the Ravnica Duals.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Diamond Valley
Candelabra of Tawnos
Power Artifact
Transmute Artifact
The Abyss
Eureka
Moat
Nether Void
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Mana Vortex
Illusions of Grandeur
Didgeridoo
Dystopia
Helm of Obedience
Krovikan Horror
Phyrexian Devourer
Thawing Glaciers
Cadaverous Bloom
Frenetic Efreet
Lion's Eye Diamond
Null Chamber
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Seeds of Innocence
Anvil of Bogardan
City of Solitude
Phyrexian Marauder
Rainbow Efreet
Squandered Resources
Three Wishes
Undiscovered Paradise
Abeyance
Firestorm
Lotus Vale
Null Rod
Aluren
Apocalypse
Corpse Dance
Cursed Scroll
Humility
Intuition
Meditate
Recycle
Sarcomancy
Dream Halls
Mox Diamond
Volrath's Shapeshifter
Volrath's Stronghold
City of Traitors
Mind Over Matte
Recurring Nightmare
Gaea's Cradle
Gilded Drake
Serra's Sanctum
Temporal Aperture
Time Spiral
Deranged Hermit
Grim Monolith
Academy Rector
Donate
Masticore
Metalworker
Opalescence
Powder Keg
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Replenish
Treachery

Widened to include all cards that do or might see play in potentially viable decks.

It's losing much of Magic's history, and I'd rather they break the reserve list by miles. Still, it's better than having no viable eternal format at all.

[evanmartyr]

I truly love Legacy, but I'm really excited by this format. As soon as I read Gavin's article, I immediately started brainstorming possible decks. There is a wealth of seemingly viable aggro decks that spring to mind when you get rid of FoW, Daze, and Aether Vial. There are tons of control decks that don't seem overpowered once you get rid of Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, and SDT, and tons of combo decks that seem reasonable without LED, Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains, Land Grant, and Tinder Wall.

Legacy minus some staples, minus the crushingly expensive mana bases, and slowed down quite a bit seems like a deckbuilder's paradise. The only thing I can see myself missing from the format would be vanilla Counterspell and Blood Moon, since every deck that doesn't lean heavily on those cards seems workable. And frankly, I'm sick of standard, boring Merfolk decks being like 20% of the field, and mono-colored decks being stuck at the bottom of the standings unless they're blue.

I think it would be great if we could have a more involved discussion about this, since it seems like the logical destination to migrate to once Legacy implodes from obscene card prices.

EDIT: I laughed when I saw Didgeridoo on the list, but we really just need 1-2 decent Minotaur or Changeling cards that cost 5 or 6 or so to give some sort of aggro control deck a shot. So close!

[Koby]

I truly love Legacy, but I'm really excited by this format. As soon as I read Gavin's article, I immediately started brainstorming possible decks. There is a wealth of seemingly viable aggro decks that spring to mind when you get rid of FoW, Daze, and Aether Vial. There are tons of control decks that don't seem overpowered once you get rid of Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, and SDT, and tons of combo decks that seem reasonable without LED, Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains, Land Grant, and Tinder Wall.

Legacy minus some staples, minus the crushingly expensive mana bases, and slowed down quite a bit seems like a deckbuilder's paradise. The only thing I can see myself missing from the format would be vanilla Counterspell and Blood Moon, since every deck that doesn't lean heavily on those cards seems workable. And frankly, I'm sick of standard, boring Merfolk decks being like 20% of the field, and mono-colored decks being stuck at the bottom of the standings unless they're blue.

I think it would be great if we could have a more involved discussion about this, since it seems like the logical destination to migrate to once Legacy implodes from obscene card prices.

Blood Moon was reprinted in 8th and 9th - this falls within the format's scope.

[Sims]

To follow up what Ruckus said about Blood Moon being legal, the site lists 7th as a legal set. This means Counterspell would be legal in the format. Personally I don't think I'd want to be blue based pure control in a format that did not have Counterspell if I was going to already be missing FoW and Daze.

[evanmartyr]

Blood Moon was reprinted in 8th and 9th - this falls within the format's scope.

Ah, nice. NM then.

EDIT: There are plenty of options to replace Counterspell when you have such a wide card pool. Remand and Rune Snag spring to mind as obvious first looks. But 7th is included, so the point's fairly moot.

[dahcmai]

I pointed out on their comments section it will be dominated by a few decks that lose absolutely nothing from Legacy converting over. Maverick being the prime example as it gets to ditch a few main deck cards that are only used to fight combo and such that it really would love to get out of there. I know what I would play.

[I am the brainwasher]

I don't get why we need a replacement for Extended, why not replace the PTQ format with something fun, like Teams or 2HG (Teams could be Sealed, Standard, Legacy, that would be really interesting...)

As far as a replacement for Legacy, nothing will replace it, they need to break the reserve list.


This sums up my oppinion pretty clearly, short and simple. Extended is just awkward (and a lot of players share this point of view) and most of the pros are just into that format because they sucked out the other formats heavily. Playing something thats kinda rare and unusual is fun to them but if it would be played in the same ammount as the other "big" formats they would be turned off on the same way as some complain about other forums (well, if they complain at all, making money out of tapping paper is nothing to complain about at all:tongue:).
The reserved list needs to be broken, definetly.
People should put their energy into fighting over that list (which has literally no kind of sense besides making players unsatisfied and unable to play the most diverse and fair format of all time) rather than searching desperatly for weird options of playing Legacy without playing Legacy.
Dont give up on fighting the list (gees, this sounds so propagandaish...you know what I mean) and I still think its possible. Cards already printed wont loose worth at all, they are still damn rare and unavailable and reprinted duals, FoW etc. stay that expensive (at least they should, but prices that are determined on real factors and marktet-rules are something untrue due to peoples narrow minded price-speculation and creation; wake up players, magic-wonderland where you pay 10 bucks for a card and get 50 back is over. Through that whole discussion people recognized that most of the prices are unreasonable, thats what I experienced).
Giving up the list wont hurt any single player, and I say this with owning at least 7 competetive Legacy decks.
Competetive Magic is about skill not money, make your point players.

[Van Phanel]

An Extended that begins with Invasion is fun.

The problem I have with Legacy is that many of the fringe strategies are unplayable because the Tier1 have gotten so much more powerful over the last years. Players old enough to remember a Legacy where Ubermadness, The Game, Boros, Lightning Rift, The Rock, Solidarity, Full English Breakfast and the like where still viable (and I'm talking of "actually viable" here not viable as in "I play it even though it sucks because it's my pet deck") will understand what I mean.

This version of overextend will allow us to play with lots of crazy combodecks like Sunny Side Up, UG Heartbeat, Balancing Tings, Enduring Ideal, 5-color Mind's Desire, Splinter Twin, Hive Mind, Dark Depths, Thopter Foundry and so on. While Faeries will obviously be a prime contender, it shouldn't be all that overpowered (even though I hate the idea of running into Misstep with my Orim's Chant or Duress when I want to go off). On the other Hand, Faeries should be kept in check by Punishing Fire.

Then there will be aggrodecks like Domain or Naya Zoo, Bant, Monored Burn thanks to the Shockland manabase, Doran and many more.

And what's more important, instead of the current Legacy which is all about matchups, it should actually be a skill-intensive format. I know that I'm going to play and support it.

[ktkenshinx]

I played extended during that boring starting era. It was awful. Invasion and those older sets don't exactly add a whole lot and you just end up playing overzealous standard decks which are boring as sin which is exactly what overextended would be in the end.

Arabian Nights, Legends, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Mirage, Ice age, and the other older sets add so much flavor it's not even funny. It's kicking out half of the printed cards of the game to have this and half the appeal of Legacy is being able to play all the old stuff.

I remember Extended when it was an awesome and fun format, and lots of people flocked to it (2002, I believe). This was right before the scourge of Mirrodin arose and ruined it for everyone, with Affinity, Skullclamp, and a generally stagnated metagame. The idea of Overextended would be to return to the diverse metagame of a pre-affinity Extended using a well-moderated banlist. This would make a lot of strategies viable as tier 1 or tier 2, and would drive format popularity.

Those sets are indeed quite flavorful, but let’s be honest here. How many of those awesome and flavorful sets really add much to Legacy decks? The Dark and Fallen Empires especially, while flavorful and cool, add only a tiny handful of cards like Hymn to Tourch. The same goes for Arabian Nights and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Legends. If Legacy were about flavor, then people would not play Tarmogoyf in Merfolk and Goblins (as I have seen in both decks). Legacy is about winning, and while most magic formats are also about winning, that means we should not idolize Legacy as some haven of flavor and diversity. For those who wanted to play old stuff, Legacy and Vintage would be around. For those who wanted a more diverse and accessible metagame, Overextended would be around.



Insofar as trying to create a new format, rather close to the same time as one is being kicked around by WotC, I just imagine that trying to rally support for this version of OverExtended would be difficult if Modern actually got pushed onto paper Magic. My guess is most players would go "On one hand I have this format which I can apparently bring to FNM and is sanctioned.. on the other, I have this other format which isn't sanctioned, determines its own banned list and runs its own events... and lets me play my Spiritmongers. Hmmm, this sucks."

I agree that Modern Magic would be a major competitor for Wizards’ and Players’ attention. But I think it is a worthwhile fight, and one that is winnable. Just like Type 1.5 competed with Vintage, so too can Overextended compete with Modern. I understand that this comparison is not at all perfect, but it does mean that there is some precedent for a player-driven format taking center stage. This is especially true of a format that has way more to offer than just “I can play Spiritmonger!” Players will realize that Overextended has more options and more diversity than just Modern (At least, if it is advertised and argued for correctly).



For example, if Invasion is taken as a starting point - what will prevent expensive decks as soon as the format becomes official? Onslaught fetches are already breaking $20-25 mark, Goyf is $60, etc... What will happen with ravnica shocklands and other cards like Dark Confidant? There will be 1000$ decks all over again and only people that would be pleased would be those that acquired cards like shoclands right now, while they are still 5$ each... Those that will need them in future will protest on forums and demand bans due to costs or mass reprints of Goyfs at common rarity so that everyone can play cheap tier 1 decks.

This is certainly a possibility, but I do not think it is likely.

I hope I'll be proved otherwise and that all the top decks will cost just few hundred $, with most powerfull cards being in 10$ range... but somehow I'm sure that won't happen, knowing Wizards and what CCG means.
Good luck, though, to those that will leave Legacy for Overextended. Their departure should help in lowering the prices of Legacy staples and make breaking into format much easier for new people.[/QUOTE]





I truly love Legacy, but I'm really excited by this format. As soon as I read Gavin's article, I immediately started brainstorming possible decks. There is a wealth of seemingly viable aggro decks that spring to mind when you get rid of FoW, Daze, and Aether Vial. There are tons of control decks that don't seem overpowered once you get rid of Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, and SDT, and tons of combo decks that seem reasonable without LED, Dark Ritual, Ill-Gotten Gains, Land Grant, and Tinder Wall.

Legacy minus some staples, minus the crushingly expensive mana bases, and slowed down quite a bit seems like a deckbuilder's paradise. The only thing I can see myself missing from the format would be vanilla Counterspell and Blood Moon, since every deck that doesn't lean heavily on those cards seems workable. And frankly, I'm sick of standard, boring Merfolk decks being like 20% of the field, and mono-colored decks being stuck at the bottom of the standings unless they're blue.

Evanmartyr’s notion of “less speed = more decks” is a good one. A lot of Legacy deck ideas get shot down, justifiably so, because they are too slow for the format, or that they are incapable of dealing with something that is “just better”. Getting rid of the Legacy staples also encourage a lot of innovation, and that leads to a ripe field for new players and old players alike to converge.


The reserved list needs to be broken, definetly.
People should put their energy into fighting over that list (which has literally no kind of sense besides making players unsatisfied and unable to play the most diverse and fair format of all time) rather than searching desperatly for weird options of playing Legacy without playing Legacy.
Dont give up on fighting the list (gees, this sounds so propagandaish...you know what I mean) and I still think its possible. Cards already printed wont loose worth at all, they are still damn rare and unavailable and reprinted duals, FoW etc. stay that expensive (at least they should, but prices that are determined on real factors and marktet-rules are something untrue due to peoples narrow minded price-speculation and creation; wake up players, magic-wonderland where you pay 10 bucks for a card and get 50 back is over. Through that whole discussion people recognized that most of the prices are unreasonable, thats what I experienced).
Giving up the list wont hurt any single player, and I say this with owning at least 7 competetive Legacy decks.
Competetive Magic is about skill not money, make your point players.

Here’s the problem with the Reserve List fight. We had it last year, and we thought we did a great job. It looked like a turning point, but then Hasbro’s legal team or whatever came in and ruined our fun. That bounced us back to square zero. This was a decisive defeat, a recent defeat, and a demoralizing defeat. Overextended has some real potential right now for a few reasons:

1) Wizards has instituted Modern Magic, which shows they are considering new eternal formats to replace the ailing Extended.
2) Wizards has printed the Event Decks with expensive staples, which shows they are willing to print cards to drive prices down and increase player accessibility.
3) Lots of players across the internet have actually noticed these signs and are trying to mobilize together to act.

These three reasons really contribute to a potentially successful environment for Overextended. The Reserve List fight does not have any beachheads currently, and that means it is probably not worth fighting right now. This is especially true given that Wizards still will not release its full and official decision process on the list. When they do that, maybe we can fight. But until then, it’s a lost cause I fear.

-ktkenshinx-

[Hof]

A cornerstone in Legacy and part of the reason for its popularity is that it is the format where you can play with all 'fair' cards ever printed, so overextended, modern, or whatever could never replace Legacy.

On the entry barrier cost issue:
What if Legacy didn't allow 4 copies of every card but instead had a restricted list of cards that you could play as 1-ofs based on their impact on the entry level barrier to the format? If Wizards where to introduce such a restricted list to Legacy containing the duals and other high value staples on the restricted list, the card availability would multiply by x4 right there.

[ktkenshinx]

An update on the player-driven success of this format so far:

On May 31, the Overextended community had its first tournament to showcase the new decks and offerings of the format. 62 players came to this event, wielding a huge range of decks from Magic's history. Below is a metagame breakdown by deckname, as well as the decks played in the Top 16. For specific decklists and more information, check out the main page:
http://mtgoverextended.com/?p=294

Overall, the Overextended format is turning out as promised. It is a healthy and diverse environment in which numerous strategies from throughout Magic's history can thrive. No single deck or archetype was dominant, although aggro does seem to be front-running for the time being. That said, there is a lot of room for growth, and the format promises to develop in interesting and innovative ways.

Top 16
1. RG Elves
2. Affinity
3. Combo Elves
4. Living End
5. Affinity
6. Dragonstorm
7. Zoo
8. Madtog (Madness!)
9. Scapeshift
10. Burn
11. Astral Slide (!)
12. Depthsblade (Depths combo + Mystic)
13. Ninjablade (Caw-Blade + Ninja of the Deep Hours + B)
14. Burn
15. Hive Mind
16. Living End

Metagame Breakdown
7 Affinity
4 Living End
4 Red Deck Wins
3 Goblins
3 Mono Blue Wizards/Faeries Control
3 Zoo (One with Stoneforge Mystic and Punishing Fire, one with just Punishing Fire, one with neither)
2 W/B Junk
2 Mono Green Elves
2 Astral Slide
2 Boros
2 Twelvepost
2 Dark Depths Psychatog
1 Pyromancer’s Swath
1 Second Sunrise
1 Hive Mind
1 All-In Red
1 R/G Ponza
1 ‘Owling Mine
1 Beacon Green
1 Bant Midrange
1 Mad-Dog 2011
1 Ghost Dad
1 Dragonstorm
1 U/W Control
1 U/G Goodstuff
1 Mass Polymorph
1 Phyrexian Unlife/Delaying Shield Combo
1 Scapeshift
1 Restore Balance
1 Depthsblade
1 Protean Hulk Combo
1 Grixis Control
1 Ninjablade
1 Mono Black Control
1 GWB Junk
1 U/B Jace Control
1 Esper Junk
1 R/G Elves

-ktkenshinx-