Commander Decks New Cards

[kaiserruhsam]

Since there are new cards in the product, and they'll be legal in eternal formats, we should probably talk about them...

MTGS Spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/commander-spoiler.html)

The three new cards (below) are discussed in this thread (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=326603) and I'd prefer keeping the discussion in this thread on legacy applications, since we can get plenty about the cards in EDH everywhere else.

Depending on who you listen to, offical commander previews start next monday, or the one after, the earlier date comes from Sheldon (I think) and the later one from the mothership.

Anyway, the new ones are:

Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter 4WBB
Legendary Creature - Vampire (R)
Flying, lifelink
Sacrifice a creature: Put X +1/+1 counters on Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, where X is the sacrificed creature's power.
Remove all +1/+1 counters from Vish Kal: Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each +1/+1 counter removed this way.
5/5

Edric, Spymaster of Trest 1GU
Legendary Creature - Elf Rogue (R)
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to one of your opponents, its controller may draw a card.
"I am not at liberty to reveal my sources, but I can assure you, the price on your head is high."
2/2

Skullbriar, the Walking Grave GB
Legendary Creature - Zombie Elemental (R)
Haste
Whenever Skullbriar, the Walking Grave deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves to any zone other than a player's hand or library.
1/1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vish is almost certainly too expensive.

Edric has potential. He's a discount on costal piracy, and might fit in a sort of non-merfolk fish deck. It's probably terrible, but "aggro elves" has a ton of lords, and you can run skyfolk to up the blue count and pretend you're merfolk.

Skullbriar is interesting, but other than unearth (the card) I can't think of a way to take advantage of him, and he probably gets sworded anyway. Too bad rift sweeper puts it into your library.

[Nidd]

Edric pretty much screams "BANT! BANT! BANT!" to me. You can even GSZ for him - a build with plenty of evasive beaters would be your best bet.
Maybe it's time to bust out those SSS again...?

[AngryTroll]

It looks to me like those legendary creatures are foil. I thought only the tri-color legends were going to be foil? It'd be awesome if the potential generals were all foil.

[Aggro_zombies]

It looks to me like those legendary creatures are foil. I thought only the tri-color legends were going to be foil? It'd be awesome if the potential generals were all foil.
You'll be able to get the foil versions of the two-color guys at the Release event, where they'll be given out as promos. As I understand it, all five two-color guys will be available and you'll get to pick one, although it's possible there are also foil versions of them in the decks.

[Darkenslight]

Skullbriar looks like it could spawn a new deck for sure. IT keeps its counters in the field/exile/Grave? Sign me up! A Nice GB Stompy variant seems like it could be in the works.

[Barook]

Skullbriar seems like an interesting design, but I can't really see a way to break it.

Rules question:

Let's say you reanimate Skullbriar from the graveyard with two counters on it - are those counters "added" to it when it enters play? E.g. would it trigger Doubling Season or not?

[jjjoness']

There is no rule that cards in graveyards etc. can't have counters. There is however a rule that counters "cease to exist" when an object changes zones.


121.2. Counters on an object are not retained if that object moves from one zone to another. The
counters are not “removed”; they simply cease to exist. See rule 400.7.


I guess the easiest way to get the effect (rules-wise) is to simply not apply the state based effect of removing counters when changing zones. Thus there wouldn't be an effect that puts counters anywhere, they simply would still "be there".

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119395&stc=1&d=1307074177

Seems interesting, but 4 mana is alot for something that is basically a vanilla beater, even with the potential to grow to a ridiculous size.

Looks like a fun target for Sutured Ghoul, though.

[Gheizen64]

The */* is defined only after it entered into play, so i'm pretty sure Sutured Ghoul with him wouldn't work (differently from Goyf).

[dahcmai]

It is interesting in the fact that you can finally have a card that you can target yourself with. Gitaxian Probe in Dredge might be interesting. Though Dredge doesn't cast 4 mana duders reliably of course.

[Barook]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119394&d=1307073704

Makes Defense of the Heart suck a bit less. Still not all that great, though.

Are there any good ways to punish your opponent for putting/having creatures in play?

[(nameless one)]

You can fetch Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite with Defense of the Heart.

[kaiserruhsam]

snip

Makes Defense of the Heart suck a bit less. Still not all that great, though.

Are there any good ways to punish your opponent for putting/having creatures in play?


You can fetch Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite with Defense of the Heart.

So I assume a hypothetical DotH deck would be like a weird mushup of reanimator, s&t, and oath since you can use guys with anti-reanimation clauses and with defense you might run orchard. Norn would probably usually be one of the creatures, but since both players get the same number of tokens, painter+iona might be an option.

To what extent can the weaknesses be mitigated? Defense is slow, and alliance being a sorcery doesn't help, but like I mentioned above, could borrow some oath tech and run Forbidden Orchard. NO/S&t is probably the existing deck that would run defense, but I don't see it benefitting.

[lorddotm]

It is interesting in the fact that you can finally have a card that you can target yourself with. Gitaxian Probe in Dredge might be interesting. Though Dredge doesn't cast 4 mana duders reliably of course.

He only mills one, definitely not worth it in any form of any deck in Legacy.


So I assume a hypothetical DotH deck would be like a weird mushup of reanimator, s&t, and oath since you can use guys with anti-reanimation clauses and with defense you might run orchard. Norn would probably usually be one of the creatures, but since both players get the same number of tokens, painter+iona might be an option.

To what extent can the weaknesses be mitigated? Defense is slow, and alliance being a sorcery doesn't help, but like I mentioned above, could borrow some oath tech and run Forbidden Orchard. NO/S&t is probably the existing deck that would run defense, but I don't see it benefitting.

What happens if you cast this, and they choose not to put any dudes in to play?

[Barook]

What happens if you cast this, and they choose not to put any dudes in to play?
They don't have to pay mana, but they're still forced to put the tokens into play that you paid for.

[Barook]

What happens if you cast this, and they choose not to put any dudes in to play?
They don't have to pay mana, but they're still forced to put the tokens into play that you paid for.

[kaiserruhsam]

He only mills one, definitely not worth it in any form of any deck in Legacy.



What happens if you cast this, and they choose not to put any dudes in to play?


They don't have to pay mana, but they're still forced to put the tokens into play that you paid for.

You tell them to read the card again. :P

Double massacre wurm might be a legit defense plan if you can reliably make 5 tokens(4, if they can't kill any of yours, 4*2*2 = 16 plus attack for 4, or even fewer if they have orchard spirits or their own creatures). Turn 3 defense is probably reliable, and you could just trigger it on your turn 4 upkeep with orchard. Which makes me wonder if orchard-defense was ever seriously attempted.

[rufus]

You can fetch Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite with Defense of the Heart.

'cause that makes more sense than fetching e.g. Lighting Crafter+Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or some other 2-card win?

[dahcmai]

Even more amusing is having a Suture priest in play at the time.

[Sims]

Even more amusing is having a Suture priest in play at the time.

Quick! Build W/G Soul-Sister/Defense of the Win!

[Gheizen64]

You tell them to read the card again. :P

Double massacre wurm might be a legit defense plan if you can reliably make 5 tokens(4, if they can't kill any of yours, 4*2*2 = 16 plus attack for 4, or even fewer if they have orchard spirits or their own creatures). Turn 3 defense is probably reliable, and you could just trigger it on your turn 4 upkeep with orchard. Which makes me wonder if orchard-defense was ever seriously attempted.

Orchard Defense! Never thought of that :(

It's basically Legacy Oath! Also Defense will often trigger by itself in this format (go scribble in a corner).

[Heresy]

http://forum.mtgmelb.com/Collective_Voyage_EN_LR.jpg http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119478&d=1307338158 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119474&d=1307332982 http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119472&stc=1&d=1307332873

[Cenarius]

Ok, wait a sec.

Animar has protection from all removal spells, except burn.
Creature means +1/+1 counter, the more +1/+1 counters, the cheaper the creatures, the more +1/+1 counters u get.
Seems really bonkers.

What possibilties are there with UGR?

[Gheizen64]

Collective Voyage look interesting. The rest are meh.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok, wait a sec.

Animar has protection from all removal spells, except burn.
Creature means +1/+1 counter, the more +1/+1 counters, the cheaper the creatures, the more +1/+1 counters u get.
Seems really bonkers.

What possibilties are there with UGR?

Seems like the best place to start would be the "Blue Zoo" thread. Good luck, I think he'd be really awesome if you find a way to break him. But not to be a hater, I'm not holding my breath on this one.

[Gheizen64]

Ok, wait a sec.

Animar has protection from all removal spells, except burn.
Creature means +1/+1 counter, the more +1/+1 counters, the cheaper the creatures, the more +1/+1 counters u get.
Seems really bonkers.

What possibilties are there with UGR?

3-color means his second ability is irrilevant 99% of the times. Pro black is less relevant than pro-red those days. His first ability is a lot worse compared to Lorescale Coatl ability and that saw no play.

It's a shitty card.

[dahcmai]

I want to see what else is in those three colors as I've been asking for an excuse to build a deck with Guided Path for ages. The creature isn't bad, but not quite up to snuff either. That land search one begs the question.

[Cenarius]

I believe the Animar deserves a new deck, not an existing deck. The third ability can be utterly insane, with the right cards. It's like a Goblin Warchief effect, going on an on.

[Barook]

I believe the Animar deserves a new deck, not an existing deck. The third ability can be utterly insane, with the right cards. It's like a Goblin Warchief effect, going on an on.
There are no self-bouncing creatures with only colorless CC, are there?

[Mr.Dieth]

Maybe with something like cloudstone curio (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Cloudstone+Curio) ?
And then hardcastin emrakul for 0 mana :tongue:

still, I would have to agree, shitty card

[Sims]

Maybe with something like cloudstone curio (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Cloudstone+Curio) ?
And then hardcastin emrakul for 0 mana :tongue:

still, I would have to agree, shitty card

While I agree in a Legacy context the card isn't that good, and I know we're all primarily looking at these cards through the Legacy lens... Do keep in mind these decks were made for Commander/EDH. Don't expect to find many, if any, Legacy gems in these sets. The new cards are going to be primarily geared towards multiplayer fun games of magic, so don't expect anything to particularly combolicious either.

That said, guy sucks for Legacy, but has potential in some EDH decks as both a dude or a general.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Maybe with palinchron. Infinite mana + a huge dude...
In a deck with all the 2U draw something guys => raven familar, Court Hussar, Trinket/treasure mage, Scroll thief and so on...

[sporenfrosch1411]

"Collective Voyage" is kinda interesting.

[(nameless one)]

"Collective Voyage" is kinda interesting.

My initial thoughts is that it can be broken but what deck would use it?

There are only three strictly mono-green established decks out there that I know of: Elves, MGCA and Berserk Stompy.

Elves (both combo and aggro) can produce an absurb amount of mana. Ramp is barely needed unless you want to filter your deck to help either Glimpse of Nature or Sylvan Messenger.

MGCA doesn't really run spells with CC of one other than Llanowar Elves/Noble Hierarch. This spell being at 1cc (with no X) can't really get around Chalice of the Void to be useful.

Berserk Stompy lists would rather run more pump than this, and they only need two active lands to function as a deck. Infect Stompy doesn't follows the same path.

Maybe it needs a deck that revolves around it? (kinda like the white one with Defense of the Heart)

[plus_ten]

"Collective Voyage" is kinda interesting.

Lignify?

Another card just got spoilt on Salvation. A 4-drop artifact that deals 1 whooping damage to someone and passes them a 1/1 squirrel. These cards are quite janky, though some of them (eg.Vow of Wilderness) has some really interesting political spin to it.

I think cards spoilt so far are quite lacklustre, even in EDH.

[Sims]

Lignify?

Another card just got spoilt on Salvation. A 4-drop artifact that deals 1 whooping damage to someone and passes them a 1/1 squirrel. These cards are quite janky, though some of them (eg.Vow of Wilderness) has some really interesting political spin to it.

I think cards spoilt so far are quite lacklustre, even in EDH.

To be fair, that artifact sounds like it's primed in a Defense geared EDH deck. Ping the player and give them dudes to activate Defense of the Heart.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

This one is actually really, really, really good:

Sewer Nemesis 3B

Creature - Horror
As Sewer Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.
Sewer Nemesis's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in the chosen player's graveyard.
Whenever the chosen player casts a spell, that player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Illus. Nils Hamm */*


I don't know where we want it, but it's worth having somewhere.


EDIT: I probably wrote 'really' too often. Still, it looks quite good.

[Gheizen64]

This one is actually really, really, really good:

Sewer Nemesis 3B

Creature - Horror
As Sewer Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.
Sewer Nemesis's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in the chosen player's graveyard.
Whenever the chosen player casts a spell, that player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Illus. Nils Hamm */*


I don't know where we want it, but it's worth having somewhere.


EDIT: I probably wrote 'really' too often. Still, it looks quite good.

I find it funny that people here on the source dissed on Batterskull all over the place and then i read praises about ... this? Really?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I find it funny that people here on the source dissed on Batterskull all over the place and then i read praises about ... this? Really?

1.) I didn't diss Batterskull (in fact, if you read the thread you'll see that I praised it), so find your hypocrisy elsewhere.
2.) I'm the only one who has expressed any interest in the card so far.

[ryO!]

collective voyage + valakut seems decent if not more than that or it s just me (and "the danger of a cool thing" thing)?

edit : didn't know new frontier ... well i guess it's not that good then....

[Jodahae]

apologies

[rufus]

"Collective Voyage" is kinda interesting.

New Frontiers 2.0

[Gheizen64]

New Frontiers 2.0

Mmh good point. Veteran Explorer also exist and see no play i guess.

[ReAnimator]

Does that Leviathan have any application in a reanimator deck?

Mana severance and a 1 or 2 turn clock, seems like it might have potential.

[Ben]

don't think the Leviathan would be that good ... if some how it gets removed you also will be loosing a bunch of lands from your deck for no reason. At least when other creatures die (InkWell, Iona and friends) all you lost is just a creature.

[Greenpoe]

Nemesis might find a spot in The Gate. 4 mana with no drawback and you can still play Wastelands (unlike Phyrexian Obliterator)? It might be worth dropping some suboptimal cards to fit him in (Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood). Lack of evasion shouldn't matter too much, since The Gate has no problem killing creatures.

[ReAnimator]

don't think the Leviathan would be that good ... if some how it gets removed you also will be loosing a bunch of lands from your deck for no reason. At least when other creatures die (InkWell, Iona and friends) all you lost is just a creature.

Isn't not drawing lands in a deck like reanimator sort of a good thing after turn 3?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Psst...over here...if you like that new card Sower of Nemesis; have I got a deal for you. For only 3BG i can get you a fatty that not only counts your grave but your opponents as well. His name is Lord of Extinction.

Do you see Sower of Nemesis giving you such a good deal, no sir. Is Nemesis green sun'able? No. Is Nemesis NO'able, again nope, see its like your getting more bang for your buck. Ill tell you right now you heard it here first Lord of Extinction is the new tech.
</sarcasm>


You're welcome to keep chortling at your own wit, but you should know that you're consistently misspelling the card's name, making it unclear whether we're even discussing the same creature.


As for Lord of Extinction... of course it's not good enough for Legacy. But then, Sewer Nemesis costs less, has only one coloured mana in its casting cost, and has an ability that Legacy might be able to exploit. And therein lies my interest: I think it's possible to find a deck configuration such that its ability is of interest. And if we can't, then it's no skin off my back.

[GGoober]

GSZ into Lord of Extinction is SIX mana for Urza's sake!

[Malchar]

There are no self-bouncing creatures with only colorless CC, are there?

My first impression with this guy was to make a deck of mostly artifact creatures and use it like affinity or something, except it works for nonartifacts too. Seems like on turn 4 after you untap, you can basically just play your whole hand of artifact creatures. Works great for ramping up to eldrazi too. Not sure if there are any infinite combos with him though. I can't find any colorless creatures that work particularly amazingly with him. It definitely seems like one of the most interesting new generals.

[ktkenshinx]

Just posted on SCG

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/06072011juiceruhan.png

Ruhan of the Fomori
Legendary Creature - Giant Warrior
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose an opponent at random. Ruhan of the Fomori attacks that player this combat if able.
7/7

Is this viable? 4 mana for a 7/7 with no drawbacks? Is there a comparable card that currently exists who does NOT see play?
Problems with this card:
-Weird color combination
-No evasion
-Legendary

Thoughts?
-ktkenshinx-

[Aggro_zombies]

Lightning Angel is arguably better in that color combination because of evasion and the ability to block.

That said, RWU is usually a wedge inhabited by control decks of various sorts. It seems unlikely they will want this when they have Clique, Jace, Stoneforge for Batterskull, manlands, and Vedalken Shackles all already available (not to mention Lightning Angel, which...hasn't seen play ever in Legacy?).

[LostButSeeking]

Lightning Angel is arguably better in that color combination because of evasion and the ability to block.

Just for the sake of argument, it's worth pointing out that this giant dude is a three turn clock where lightning angel is a SEVEN turn clock, including the turn she comes into play.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just for the sake of argument, it's worth pointing out that this giant dude is a three turn clock where lightning angel is a SEVEN turn clock, including the turn she comes into play.
This dude is only a three turn clock if there are no blockers. Lightning Angel is almost always a six turn clock.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wow. I'm... disappointed. A four mana 7/7. Incredibly unsubtle creature creep, and the worst thing is that it's not even good in the format it's designed for.

[Koby]

GSZ into Lord of Extinction is SIX mana for Urza's sake!

Most games I've played recently never made it past 4 mana. Could have wasteland colored goggles on tho.

[Cenarius]

Legacy has better 3-drops that this creature.

It would have been playable if it had costed 3 mana and had split mana costs (like R/U, U/W and W/R). So it was playable for 2-colour-decks.

[tsabo_tavoc]

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/06072011juiceruhan.png


This needs to be a Minotaur, for Didgeridoo's sake!

[dahcmai]

We have creatures just about as large in single colors. It's worth noting that there aren't too many playable legacy creatures at 7/7 range for 4 mana. He would be the largest if you could figure out a way to work that mana cost. When Grinning Demon/Abyssal Persecutor isn't even considered at 4 being the next closest thing I can think of to his size, that says something, though I seriously doubt you can make this legacy worthy.

Also, Aggro Zombies has a point about which wedge he's in. It's the colors that traditionally end up as control like it or not. I'm sure you could build something different, but it's not applying those particular colors strengths.

It might have been playable at URW only, but barely, and even then it would be a control finisher like goyf serves in some decks.

[kiblast]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119511&stc=1&d=1307419243

Painless City of Brass for any EDH!

Also, a Legacy staple obv.

[Atwa]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119511&stc=1&d=1307419243

Painless City of Brass for any EDH!

Also, a Legacy staple obv.

How is this going to give you mana in any format where you don't have a commander and thus a color indentity?

[GGoober]

Just posted on SCG

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/06072011juiceruhan.png

Ruhan of the Fomori
Legendary Creature - Giant Warrior
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose an opponent at random. Ruhan of the Fomori attacks that player this combat if able.
7/7

Is this viable? 4 mana for a 7/7 with no drawbacks? Is there a comparable card that currently exists who does NOT see play?
Problems with this card:
-Weird color combination
-No evasion
-Legendary

Thoughts?
-ktkenshinx-

1G Goyf, 4/5, 5/6 usually, sometimes an 8/9!!!!!
1WG KotR, usually a 7/7 or bigger with an ability that wins games
2U Master of Etherium, big dude in artifact.dec
1GG Terravore, huge dude with trampler

This guy is hilariously bad for being 3 color. At least give him Shroud or something..

[kiblast]

How is this going to give you mana in any format where you don't have a commander and thus a color indentity?

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour#Understanding_humour).

;)

Anyway, Ruhan of the Fomori is one of the worst designed cards among all the ones spoiled for Commander Decks. He's awful even in Commander probably.

[Kilz88]

Can we reanimate this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329528

[Aggro_zombies]

Can we reanimate this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329528
Why? So your opponent can kill you faster after you just lost eight life?

Probably worse as a reanimator target against control than either Iona or Jin-Gitaxias.

[Darth Nihilus]

Can we reanimate this?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329528

the best reanimate target from the commander decks so far is mimeoplasm


burier alive into Mimeoplasm, Krosan Cloudscraper and Gaea's Revenge or Hellkite Overlord to win in one turn


but its worse than just going with ooze combo so meh

[Cire]

the best reanimate target from the commander decks so far is mimeoplasm


burier alive into Mimeoplasm, Krosan Cloudscraper and Gaea's Revenge or Hellkite Overlord to win in one turn


but its worse than just going with ooze combo so meh

Actually It might be better than ooze combo, due to the fact that you can not play cards with CMC over 2. That means you can put in blue for force of will and what not.

Edit
For an win the turn you play this combo you can get Putrefax + Krosan Cloudscraper for a 13/13 HASTE, trample, Infect
You can use that against combo, and the Gaea's revenge against everything else

[Sims]

Ooze decks do play cards with CMC over 2, you just have to play the stack right when you flip FoW and your fine.

I do like Mimeoplasm -> Putrefax and big dude, that's hilarious... though it still revolves around sending an unshrouded dude into the redzone, which is kind of sketchy. Misstep and Force of Will FTW?

[rufus]

Edit
For an win the turn you play this combo you can get Putrefax + Krosan Cloudscraper for a 13/13 HASTE, trample, Infect
You can use that against combo, and the Gaea's revenge against everything else
FWIW, Death's Shadow is 13/13 while not in play.
Since mimeoplasm is legendary, it will work with both Shallow Grave and Goryo's Vengeance.

[Antonius]

has this been mentioned yet?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119551&d=1307505714

ramp with Sakura-Tribe and Coiling Oracle, deploy this and/or Jace and/or Deed early ftw?

[Sims]

All due respect... but did you read that casting cost?

EDH card for sure, and I do love her in that format, but I doubt that card is going to crack into Legacy.

[Zach Tartell]

Oh LORD that guy is gonna be an INCREDIBLE general. He has exactly 0 playablilty in Legacy. Only place you'd run him is reanimator and the new draw 7/hand size 0 (that reminds me of Fluxx) guy is head and shoulders better.

[Antonius]

All due respect... but did you read that casting cost?

EDH card for sure, and I do love her in that format, but I doubt that card is going to crack into Legacy.

I used to tap 8 and cast Bolas for the lulz whilst using the same mana ramp engine.

[Sims]

O_O

Can I play in your metagame? I've been looking somewhere that I could break Wildfire back out

[Nihil Credo]

Empyrial Archangel + Death's Shadow is probably the better Mimeoplasm combo.

[Barook]

Since you're probably running blue to go along with it, wouldn't Dreadnought be better as fat provider? It's just as easy to place in the yard and has the potential to be played with Stifle. Although that has to be revalued since MM.

[Nihil Credo]

1) You probably don't want to play Stifle
2) In a pinch, Death's Shadow is going to be almost as good a blocker on its own, and won't bite it to Pridemage
3) 18 damage is significantly more likely to be a one-turn-kill than 17 damage.

[Shawon]

There's also The Mimeoplasm -> Murderous Redcap (or Maga, Traitor to Mortals) + Lord of Extinction, but obviously this combo is only viable in graveyard decks such as Breakfast and Dredge.

[Cire]

Damn it Nihil Credo you also found the Empyrial Archangel ?! Lol... as i stated in another thread I think that the best 4 card creature suit to run with would be

1 mimeoplasm
1 Deaths Shadow
1 Angel : Ultimate defense - and an 18/21 ain't half bad
1 Putrefax : Instawin (against combo this is a a full turn (or two) faster than Angel)...you could replace this with any hasted evasive +7 creature....but the infect is just to hilarious

[whienot]

You can reanimate The Mimeoplasm with Shallow Grave or Goryo's Vengeance to give it haste.

Then you'll only need Putrefax for the corner case googolplex life combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Triskelion* seems like it would be better than Murderous Redcap, since it doesn't care about Stifle. It could also kill the rogue, I dunno, True Believer or Platinum Angel or what not someone might be randomly running.

*Or Deathbringer Thoctar, I guess.

[Darth Nihilus]

Damn it Nihil Credo you also found the Empyrial Archangel ?! Lol... as i stated in another thread I think that the best 4 card creature suit to run with would be

1 mimeoplasm
1 Deaths Shadow
1 Angel : Ultimate defense - and an 18/21 ain't half bad
1 Putrefax : Instawin (against combo this is a a full turn (or two) faster than Angel)...you could replace this with any hasted evasive +7 creature....but the infect is just to hilarious

the thing is gaeas revenge has haste and shroud, besides deed there is actually nothing played in legacy that kills cmc 8 shroud dudes (since he copys cmc) so with deaths shadow/cloudscraper+gaeas revenge you get and 20/20 hasty an almost unkillable dude(deathtouch is still there somewhere i guess). seems good enough for me, atleast better then it getting Stp´d and justing trading 5 cards for 1, the only other cards that would get rid of him are things like diabolic edict(wich doesnt see that much play) and innocent blood/gatekeeper wich are not relevant with a hasty dude.

archangel is a damn sweet if you are stuck in a race though. also you should consider a 5th option in that pile: angel of despair(or something along the lines) to crack up ghostly prison/ensnaring bridge/peacekepper

[Goaswerfraiejen]

the thing is gaeas revenge has haste and shroud, besides deed there is actually nothing played in legacy that kills cmc 8 shroud dudes (since he copys cmc)



Just to be nitpicky, the following can (and are more likely than Deed to) kill CMC 8 dudes with shroud:

Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
Innocent Blood
Fleshbag Marauder
Gatekeeper of Malakir


But, like I said, I'm just nitpicking. It would be one mammoth of a creature.

[dahcmai]

I kind of like this one.

Vow of Flight http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/cmd/ivds3akpe3_en.jpg)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gif Enchantment - Aura http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/commander-uncommon.gif Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/+2, has flying, and can't attack you or a planeswalker you control."Soaring is wasted on the winged."
-Edric, Spymaster of Trest

If you think about that, it sucks for the most part, but having a mono-U answer to fatties is sure nice when your Shackles isn't cutting it. Has the side benefit of keeping Jace safe also. Nice touch.

[alphacat]

Hate to be negative, but it seems like Wizards missed another great opportunity to create some nice eternal cards. While they could have used the 50+ slots to try to balance things in eternal without using the BR list, they actually are simply filling the slots with EDH fodders. Granted, that was the express purpose of the collection, but I have to say I'm disappointed that they did not use this opportunity to make Legacy and Vintage more healthy.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hate to be negative, but it seems like Wizards missed another great opportunity to create some nice eternal cards. While they could have used the 50+ slots to try to balance things in eternal without using the BR list, they actually are simply filling the slots with EDH fodders. Granted, that was the express purpose of the collection, but I have to say I'm disappointed that they did not use this opportunity to make Legacy and Vintage more healthy.
Short of, "Here's your full cycle of snow duals and Force of Will reprint," there's not a lot they could have done that would have made the format more healthy in the long run.

[Gheizen64]

Rumored card on mtgsalv:

Flusterstorm U
Instant - Rare
Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless it's controller pays 1.
Storm

This does effectively counter tendril.

[workingdude]

Chaos Warp 2R
Instant - Rare
The owner of target permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a permanent card, he or she puts it onto the battlefield.

Absolutely insane with SDT+fetchlands. An instant speed natural order/show and tell

EDIT: Finally a way get Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker into play. *giggle*
EDIT 2: See Nihil Credo's comment below. :(

[Cire]

Chaos Warp 2R
Instant - Rare
The owner of target permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a permanent card, he or she puts it onto the battlefield.

Absolutely insane with SDT+fetchlands. An instant speed natural order/show and tell

Um yeah combine with elightened tutor and worldly tutor for instant speed 2RG Emrakul or a 2RW.. idk Artifact of doom?

[Nihil Credo]

You don't get priority between the shuffle and the reveal. Card is worthless.

[alderon666]

This is just like Mind's Desire. You shuffle during the resolution of the effect, and still during that resolution you reveal the top card. There's no time between those actions to fiddle with the top card of you library.

[Cire]

I'm an idiot. Sorry i get to overexcited...

hmm... can the card could be used as a red psuedo-vindicate?

[bakofried]

Does it have any value as a pseudo-vindicate? It's a red answer to enchantments.

[GGoober]

Blind flip a Moat and Humility all over again! :P

It could be insane if you vindicate the Moat, they shuffle and flip a Jace killing their own Jace in play XD

[Greenpoe]

Could be funny if they flip a Standstill in a bad board position. Destroy target permanent, draw 3 cards sounds good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Chaos Warp is I think better than its cousins Oblation or Beast Within, but I'm not sure how much that says. Two thirds of the time it's going to be really good, and then randomly you'll lose some games to it.

[Koby]

Chaos Warp is I think better than its cousins Oblation or Beast Within, but I'm not sure how much that says. Two thirds of the time it's going to be really good, and then randomly you'll lose some games to it.

Might make me think twice about putting Phage into my decks...

[Gheizen64]

At 1R it would have been a nice sideboard card against decks with very little permanents as a 1R stone rain instant... at 2R i see few times i'd prefer having this over REB.

[Intet's Attendant]

Chaos Warp is actually quite good vs decks with a lot of non-permanent cards, like Muc and combo decks. Bad against zoo though.

[keys]

Chaos Warp is actually quite good vs decks with a lot of non-permanent cards, like Muc and combo decks. Bad against zoo though.

Against Zoo you still have about 66% chance of hitting a non-creature spell. It's really good against something like Team America or Jacestill, where there are relevant targets but there's a much better chance of it whiffing.

It could be decent but I think the random factor will prohibit it from seeing competitive play.

[Shawon]

Jank or dank, what do you guys think?

Spell Crumple - 1UU
Instant
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on the bottom of its owner's library instead of into that player's graveyard. Put Spell Crumple on the bottom of it's owners library.

It's more often than not a better Hinder, since it recycles just like the Zenith cycle. I'm leaning toward 'not playable' since it's slower than Counterspell.

[dahcmai]

Damn, they finally give Red a way to get rid of Humility. I am bummed.

[Greenpoe]

Chaos Warp basically counters Enlightened Tutor, too, unless they can Brainstorm in response.

[ivanpei]

Chaos warp seems pretty good. Dragon stompy ftw, fits what the deck needs perfectly. Btw these commander decks are insane. The prices are jumping like nuts way above mrsp now sad :(

[Jak]

The new Legendary Commanders come as over-sized cards in the box, if I read correctly, but is there a normal sized one too?

Edit- Found it and obviously they include a regular version, so ignore my stupid question.

Also, I am picking all five up and can't wait to just play them. Maybe update them little by little, but I can't wait to just play great casual. I used to love buying the theme decks and busting them out against each other, but now these decks are actually built with decent cards and look to be very fun.

[Aggro_zombies]

The new Legendary Commanders come as over-sized cards in the box, if I read correctly, but is there a normal sized one too?
Yes, foil ones in the decks.

[ivanpei]

Hornet queen has potential. Natural order target anyone? This card just shuts down aggro/trades for their entire team. I would play this as an alternate target.

[Amon Amarth]

I think Hornet Queen is awesome. So much value! Excellent flavor too.

[ivanpei]

Hornet queen is awesome. It can shut down a whole team of dudes by itself. You can then get in there in the air for 2-3 damage a turn until you find more dudes/ another natural order. @ 7 cc the card cost is quite reasonable. I am tempted to play this in my Wg natural order maverick with kotrs, gaeas cradle and gsz. Getting to 8 mana to gsz for the queen with a cradle fetched by kotr is not that difficult. I've done it for terastodon, don't see why I can't do it with the hornet.

[DrJones]

Hornet Queen is a card I designed for GDS2. I'm really happy to see it printed. I'll try to finish the custom set this month and offer it as a free download that can be used in MWS. :)

You can see an outdated version of my GDS2 submission here (community.wizards.com/magicthegathering/wiki/Labs:Gds/gds2/DrJones/Orobis). Queen Bee appears on the fourth challenge submission, though I changed the card later to a 3/3 that put three tokens with a manacost of 4GGG.

[Jak]

Hornet Queen is a card I designed for GDS2. I'm really happy to see it printed. I'll try to finish the custom set this month and offer it as a free download that can be used in MWS. :)

You can see an outdated version of my GDS2 submission here (community.wizards.com/magicthegathering/wiki/Labs:Gds/gds2/DrJones/Orobis). Queen Bee appears on the fourth challenge submission, though I changed the card later to a 3/3 that put three tokens with a manacost of 4GGG.

Or your card is only similar? Which still doesn't mean anything at all since it is also similar to most green token producers. Your card doesn't even include Deathtouch which is the only reason this card is interesting / going to be good.

Your ego seems huge.

[DrJones]

Or your card is only similar? Which still doesn't mean anything at all since it is also similar to most green token producers. Your card doesn't even include Deathtouch which is the only reason this card is interesting / going to be good.

Your ego seems huge.
Well, the GDS2 rules state that all cards submitted to GDS2 can be used by WotC, and the timing is just right, as Queen Bee was one of the first cards I submitted to the set, and the article mentioning the card is titled "Queen Bee". And I'm not saying "Look at how a good designer I am, even WotC uses my designs", but "Yai! I can play with that card I designed for the contest!".

There's a reason it doesn't include Deathtouch, though. My set had a design limitation in that if I gave deathtouch to the insect tokens, all the insect tokens in my set would have had to get deathtouch. I'm happy they were able to add Deathtouch in development as Commander didn't have such a limitation.

And I personally think your ego is as big as your ass, and you are whining because you don't got a card printed by WotC. :P

[tsabo_tavoc]

Hornet queen has potential. Natural order target anyone? This card just shuts down aggro/trades for their entire team. I would play this as an alternate target.

Yep, Hornet Queen from Natural Order is like Myr Battlesphere fetched by Forgemaster. It is game-breaking in some occasions, but the utility is narrower than Progenitus and Terastodon (not saying Battlesphere ranking lower than Blightsteel Collosus and Sundering Titan though). There should be one Hornet Queen if and only if a deck can support 3 NO targets, that is, a deck that can hardcast it.

[SpikeyMikey]

Hate to be negative, but it seems like Wizards missed another great opportunity to create some nice eternal cards. While they could have used the 50+ slots to try to balance things in eternal without using the BR list, they actually are simply filling the slots with EDH fodders. Granted, that was the express purpose of the collection, but I have to say I'm disappointed that they did not use this opportunity to make Legacy and Vintage more healthy.

You should be thanking your lucky stars that there aren't any Legacy staples in these decks. Flusterstorm is niche-playable although usually worse than Spell Pierce and it'll be a $10 card in 2-3 years. If there were anything that was an auto 4-of for a color or color combination, it'd start high and skyrocket.

[Team-Hero]

I think Chaos Warp is better than Beast Within when it comes to an instant speed Vindicate. There are a lot of Legacy decks that don't have a high count of viable permanents to warp into. Besides, you'll be using it on something big like an Enchantment.

[alderon666]

Yeah, for a deck that actually needs it, it looks very good. Unlike Beast Within where they always get the 3/3, Chaos Warp has (out of the top of my head) an average chance of 60% to hit a "blank" (land, instant, sorcery, etc...). Plus if it hit a permanent, it probably will hit something that's not as bad as what you just removed.

Plus you get the 1% chance to blow out or be blown out. Like hitting a second legendary card that an opponent already has a copy in play or the other extreme which is probably hitting Emrakul. LOL

[Tacosnape]

Chaos Warp's interesting, though, in that I think it's the first spell red's ever had that can just spot kill an enchantment, straight up. I think it might have a few possible, but probably bad, uses in Legacy:

1. Hypergenesis's sideboard. Kills a Meddling Mage or other problematic permanent, or if you get land flooded gives you an outside shot to catch an enormous guy.

2. As spot removal for some red deck that only fears a few cards but can't afford to splash.

3. As an out to Blood Moon, for any deck that really wants an out to Blood Moon that badly.

4. In some kind of really bizarre Doomsday shell. If you can figure out a way to solve the fact that you'll only get the permanent into play that you want 80% of the time.

EDIT: Also, this is officially the single most hilarious card to ever combine with Radiate. If a pitch Radiate were ever printed, this could be a deck.

[Heresy]

The image for Chaos Warp :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119720&stc=1&d=1307699616

[rufus]

4. In some kind of really bizarre Doomsday shell. If you can figure out a way to solve the fact that you'll only get the permanent into play that you want 80% of the time.

I was wondering if there was a way to make it work with an empty library...

I think the design target is Jace, The Mind Sculptor.

[Koby]

Mirror of Fate could also help set this up.

[Nihil Credo]

EDIT: Also, this is officially the single most hilarious card to ever combine with Radiate. If a pitch Radiate were ever printed, this could be a deck.
The combo of Chaos Warp + Radiate is almost functionally identical to Warp World, down to the same mana cost. (And I bet they knew it.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would definitely maindeck Chaos Warp in Hypergenesis. Gives you around a 1/3 shot of getting some huge guy in a pinch on top of buying time or dealing with bigger threads, Counterbalances, etc.

Also Scavenging Ooze looks really interesting:


1G
Creature- Ooze
2/2
G: Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life.

Definitely viable as a GSZ target.

[Ben]

If they do not release these new cards else where they will be mighty hard/expensive to get a play set of them

[dahcmai]

That's what I was afraid of happening. You have no idea how happy I am to see a lack of Legacy playables in this. Chaos Warp is niche playable, but nothing people will run out to get a playset of.

Oddly, these almost help prices in some areas. There's a few cards hard to find that are used in Legacy that will now go down in price. Wizard's seems to be saying "You're welcome" in the case of Mud players using Lightning Greaves. None of the Commanders themselves seem to have any real value outside of EDH luckily. That would have been particularly horrible as there's virtually no chance of those getting a reprint aside from these. Obviously these are made for this and that's it.

I say "Good Job Wizards" in keeping these from being a market hysteria. Ok, admittedly you still have to suffer the fact that EDH is very popular and some stores are going to drive up the price of these as is.

[Amon Amarth]

I would definitely maindeck Chaos Warp in Hypergenesis. Gives you around a 1/3 shot of getting some huge guy in a pinch on top of buying time or dealing with bigger threads, Counterbalances, etc.

Also Scavenging Ooze looks really interesting:



Definitely viable as a GSZ target.

Holy crap that card is awesome. It's a Green Withered Wretch! Easier to cast and it grows and gains you life? A very solid, playable card. Ditto on GSZ.

[Infinitium]

It's going to see play as a 1-of in my Elf sideboard at the very least. Nice, solid utility with the ability to grow out of control in the lategame whilst putting you out of burn range. Might be maindeck material in GSZ decks.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It's going to see play as a 1-of in my Elf sideboard at the very least. Nice, solid utility with the ability to grow out of control in the lategame whilst putting you out of burn range. Might be maindeck material in GSZ decks.

Yah it seems pretty neat, to control tarmo/kotr sizes if you have enogh G.

[kiblast]

Also Scavenging Ooze looks really interesting:

Definitely viable as a GSZ target.

Actually way better than Loaming Shaman as a GSZ target post sb against dredge. Rfg his Ichorids and Moeba's response to trigger, rfg his DR target resp to DR...

Edit: Is actually very good against Volrath's Stronghold too ( Loam Mu).



Yah it seems pretty neat, to control tarmo/kotr sizes if you have enogh G.

Why on earth a deck playing green should be worried about Tarmo and KotR sizes, considering that 99,99% of the times it plays them? And in the 0,01 % of the times in which it doesn't is because they are Elves, and Tarmo should be a joke for them?

[allek]

Scavenging Ooze will replace the last Tarmogoyf in most Maverick decks. Tutorable maindecked answer to Dredge/Welder/Loam and a rather good topdeck lategame.

[Malchar]

Why on earth a deck playing green should be worried about Tarmo and KotR sizes, considering that 99,99% of the times it plays them? And in the 0,01 % of the times in which it doesn't is because they are Elves, and Tarmo should be a joke for them?

Well, supposing both decks have kotr and goyf, but if you also have ooze, then you can cannibalize the graveyard, and shrink everything except your ooze will be huge.

[Tacosnape]

Ooze also doesn't matter in conjunction with your own Knight of the Reliquary. There's only one possible play in Legacy right now that would both grow your Ooze and shrink your Knight of the Reliquary, which is exiling a Dryad Arbor from your own graveyard.

GW decks should probably love this guy. I haven't been running Tarmogoyf in mine anyway, but I'll find room for one of these dudes.

[Nidd]

Why on earth a deck playing green should be worried about Tarmo and KotR sizes, considering that 99,99% of the times it plays them? And in the 0,01 % of the times in which it doesn't is because they are Elves, and Tarmo should be a joke for them?
Being able to shrink your opponent's Knights to a measly 2/2 is nothing to sneeze at - and that's not the only thing this little ooze is capable of doing.

Like you said yourself, it messes up Loam and stuff, and against Aggro it gains you life for spare mana while growing to a sizable beater. It's not bonkers, but it's solid - and GSZ means I can play 5 of them.

[Gheizen64]

Ooze also doesn't matter in conjunction with your own Knight of the Reliquary. There's only one possible play in Legacy right now that would both grow your Ooze and shrink your Knight of the Reliquary, which is exiling a Dryad Arbor from your own graveyard.

GW decks should probably love this guy. I haven't been running Tarmogoyf in mine anyway, but I'll find room for one of these dudes.

What scare me is the price this thing is going to have with such a limited print...

[evanmartyr]

Well, currently the prices at SCG have gone up 5$ from 29.99 to 34.99. Doesn't seem too terrible. And WotC can always do more print runs, since it's not a set, and they WANT these cards to be available to help support the format.

[ivanpei]

The prices will be nuts in the first few weeks while the stocks are still limited. But once all the casual players get their decks, the demand will drop and the extra copies of decks will kick in and the prices will be reasonable once again. This is if Wizards does enough print runs. But as usual, it's really hard to know how much they will print.

Damn, Wizards really knows how to print money.

Btw I don't think the ooze is that Great. As SB GSZ target, Loaming shaman is more efficient as it wipes the grave the same time as the ooze (you cast ooze with GSZ T3, activate T4).

g: Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life.

Green to activate sort of killed a bit of my interest. You have to be really heavy green to get max use out of it. It also only grows if it nom-nom-noms creatures. Most cards in graveyards are lands or spells with 1/2 creatures in the early-mid game. Seems a bit underwhelming. Not good enough in my book.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I was just farting around on MWS when I realized that Skullbriar would keep Jitte counters, which is pretty sexy.

EDIT: Yeah, never mind, forgot that Jitte just pumped, it doesn't give it a counter. It's still a very interesting card, though--although keeping -1/-1 counters would suck.

[dahcmai]

In EDH, this happened.


Skullbriar dies, I give it persist!

[Barook]

Sewer Nemesis looks kinda interesting when combined with Sword of Body and Mind for two-hit potential.

Doesn't really make both card better on their own, though.