[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[jbone2016]

Jarad's Orders....

Too slow for a nic fit build with genesis?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Jarad's Orders kinda pales in comparison to Intuition and Gifts Ungiven, but two things really sell this a potential 2 to 3 of.

1. BG means BG builds can run it.
2. You choose where the creatures wind up.

So far, I'm drawing a blank for what combinations this would be good with (Eternal Witness+??? being the obvious front-runner). But I'm sure there is some potential.

[Claymore]

If anything, I'd say Genesis plus something else. Next up you might roll with Witness and something, but at that point you're much better off playing Eldamari's call for the original target. Perhaps Sun Titan/Fierce Empath to fetch Grave Titan next turn

This could fuel something more fierce, such as the suggested Karmic Guide + Griselbrand/Iona/etc, or serve to set up a new GB combo, but as it is I don't see it dropping in very easily

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What are this archetype's more nightmarish matchups pre and post board?

[bruizar]

Volraths shapeshifter with a random bomb i guess

[Asthereal]

Updated GBu Magosi Nice Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get how this works. :frown:
Who can explain it to me step by step? :tongue:

[Claymore]

shapeshifter would not work because the spell would go on top of the creature in the graveyard upon resolving

[fireiced]

What are this archetype's more nightmarish matchups pre and post board?

Always those annoying Turn1 combo decks like belcher and SI[if they go the tendrils route]!! Pre or post-board I usually get smashed. I am assuming you are playing GB, GBW, GBR or Scapewish.

UW miracles are kind of annoying as heck (I play only GB and Scapewish) and I usually lose when I punt somewhere, which I am bound to do ):

Any decks with Hymn to Tourach like The Gate and TA/Team Italia will plow me dead fast with hand rape if they do it early (This was the era I played GB and they run confidants/brainstorm)

[Arianrhod]

Few things --

@EpicLevelCommoner -- Pretty much what FireIced said. Storm combo is overall one of the worst matchups, especially Belcher. High Tide can be a severe problem, as can HyperGen. Depending on your version, Sneak and Omni can both be problematic as well. Rector handles them better than most, and BUG is largely fine vs them depending on the configuration of the list, but Scapewish, Jund, G/B, and Rock are all pretty much just screwed.

Miracles is annoying, but IMO rarely lethal if you play correctly. Rector and Scapewish are best vs Miracles...Rector's curve is really annoying for CB, and Rector can shut down Jace forever via Fetters, while also having the ability to Rector in a Deed and just sit on it. Scapewish can just slowroll Valakut and Miracles can't do a damn thing about it. Scapeshifting for the pair of Valakuts early, even without having enough lands to do damage, is often going to get there vs them.

@Jarad's Orders -- This is bad. If you want to do this effect, play 4c Gifts for Unburial Rites. Orders is a sorcery compared to Gifts instant, and yeah, while you can play Orders without having to splash any colors, Gifts just does it better. Gifts can do anything that Orders can do, but better. Stuff like Karmic Guide and Body Double are fine cards, and I've actually considered trying to do something with Guide periodically....but every time I start down that road, Gifts is just better. It's certainly a "cool" card. But I don't think it's good enough....like Underworld Connections is not a better Phyrexian Arena, despite the fact that you can turn it off. I think I've died to my Arena once in the history of ever. We tend to have a superfluity of mana, but that doesn't mean that spending an extra mana to Arena every turn is where we want to be.

@Magosi -- it doesn't work. You'll just end up skipping your extra turn.

@caggii -- definitely not too greedy. I have a version like that built myself. The mana base can be a little tricky, but once you figure it out it's surprisingly hard to wreck. I'll post my list at some point -- don't have it handy at the moment =( But it's definitely possible.

@Opaco -- we've actually discussed that fairly recently, and we chose to keep it as one thread for the time being. There's enough similarities and cross-pollination between all of the different versions that when one version makes an innovation, the others can usually benefit from the discovery.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Son of a ... I thought you could go infinite take turns followed by infinite skip turns.

Oh well, still like intuition. Just need another win con package.

[TheArchitect]

So I didn't go to NELC this past weekend, but I'm going to Mythic this week. And its the first time Ive played in a competitive legacy tourny since last spring. I haven't used the rector version much and was hoping for some advice, on my list most specifically my sideboard.

Anyways, hers the list I plan to run:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters

2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Stony Silence
1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Scavenging Ooze

- I dont own, or know anyone that owns a moat or chains however, they probably would actually be good to have.

- Even with Moat, I haven't felt the need to have Kokusho. I think Grave Titan will do well, especially since I wont be running moat anyways. For this slot, I have been contemplating Angel of Despair or even Elesh, how has that been for people?

- On a side note: I have really liked baneslayers with no moat. In my GB list, I still wouldnt leave home without 3 abyssal persecutors and baneslayers fill that role, just better with access to white.

- Duress, the 4th deed and Ooze, I am not sure I need in the SB.

- Demonic Intent I havent used much, but I really like the sounds of it.

- I really like having some 1cc target removal to beat those "unbeatable" RUG hands and to help deal with lackys, bobs, revokers on deed and other stuff. Arianrhod, I noticed has Sakura tribe elders basically in that slot; how well did they perform? Do you ever miss 1cc removal?

Mostly, I could really use some help with exact sideboard plan (ex: RUG: +3 carpet, -3 whatever, etc). The MD is so tight I could use some help on what exactly to take out/put in for each given matchup. I expect the typical popular decks, but also more MUD, goblins, storm, and decks with dark confidant than your average meta. I could definitly use help against goblins, MUD and BWx bob/hymn decks. I have little experience playing them with the rector build, but I know even with the BG build, I have always had a lot of trouble with those matchups.

[lambert101]

Your going to need the fourth deed at mythic. Their is always a bunch of maverick. Also pack more Duress because you know I will be packing grapeshot :wink:

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alrighty then: came up with the most expensive, yet most versatile combo engine for GBu Nic Fit.

Recurring Nightmare + Great Whale (or Palinchron if you don't want to slap someone in the face with a whale) + any creature.

So freakin' versatile: You could storm, gravestorm, infinite X spells, or infinite etb ltb triggers and effects. Hell throw in an eternal witness instead of any old creature and you got yourself infinite of any instant or sorcery.

What would you use as a finisher for any given matchup?

[PollePotDK]

So, over the past couple of weeks I have gotten to play some with GBW Rector and Scapewish and gained some experience.

GBW Rector:
I allways side out Fierce Empath+Kokusho/Yosei combo in exchange for more suiting cards in SB (same list as a couple of pages back). I feel like it to slow and I allways want something else in those spots. Really hope, that there will be som decent 5-drops in coming expansions, since Fierce Empath is only there for Sun titan (granted broken with Deed recurrence) and Kokusho/Yosei. That's 3 spots for something else. I'm tempted to take them out for Scavenging Ooze and something else, maybe som Enchantment generel hate, but don't know what.

Scapewish:
Played this deck mainly against Goblins and Maverick. Versus Goblins I'm missing Lightning Bolts, so they're coming in, but don't know for what (list is Arainhodr standard list). I'm allways on the heels in this match-up. Maybe I'm playing this one wrong, since Explorer ramp Goblins too and we cant interact with hasty goblins except with Deed out. Versus Maverick (this particular build features singleton Armageddon main and 2 SB, Terravore, Aven mindvensor and Ooze) I have been raped 0-8 lately, because of armageddon. That card is sick. I know not all Maverick players doesn't play with armageddon, but for some reason more players at my local have this card (maybe because they hate playing against my Nic Fit builds :smile:). Should I just say "ohh well, that's one match-up that cant be won?" Scapewish is very bad against Armageddon I feel, since it's in more top-deck mode than GBW Rector. That's just my experience.

Think Scapewish is being put on the shelf for some time and focus on GBW Rector. Haven't had that glorious moments with that build, as with GBW Rector.

Have anyone else met Armageddon?

/PollePotDK

[Cire_dk]

So, over the past couple of weeks I have gotten to play some with GBW Rector and Scapewish and gained some experience.

GBW Rector:
I allways side out Fierce Empath+Kokusho/Yosei combo in exchange for more suiting cards in SB (same list as a couple of pages back). I feel like it to slow and I allways want something else in those spots. Really hope, that there will be som decent 5-drops in coming expansions, since Fierce Empath is only there for Sun titan (granted broken with Deed recurrence) and Kokusho/Yosei. That's 3 spots for something else. I'm tempted to take them out for Scavenging Ooze and something else, maybe som Enchantment generel hate, but don't know what.

/PollePotDK


I am aware that Fierce empath has been dicussed several times and there is a lot of love for this card.
I often found it to narrow. There have been many occassion were a Baneslayer would have been better to than a 6 drop. For this reason I have been thinking about cutting fierce and replace it with Eladamris Call. One mana less , instant (so playable end of their turn) and it can get any creature, It is not a sacable body but it will give me more options in case I already have a six drop in hand.
Since I am fairly new to this deck I might be missing an important point so feel free to point it out to me :smile:

Titan has been amazing for me and will stay for the time being,
I would also love a third Eternal witness to make the recurring nightmare loop more likely but no space for that card :-(

[eq.firemind]

People like to be able to grab non-green finishers with Green Sun's Zenith. That's why they play Fierce Empath in the first place.

[Alexeezay]

@ EpicLevelCommander:
what the fuck, GREAT WHALE? Hahaha :D Unfortunately Palinchron is just better...
we need more whales

[Giggioz]

Hi guys, i would like to share with yuou my experience with this awesome deck.

I started playing GBw for a while (swords, canonist, qsali, gaddock) but in july i switched for the GBr version (punishing fire, broodmate dragon, huntmaster --> wow!) with a powerful sideboard plan against combo and control.

Here the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower

//Sideboard

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Surgical
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 baloth
SB: 1 thrun

Against blue based is not uncommon to side in 13 cards, making the mu pretty easy.
Main deck punishing fire, big threats and sweepers are great against any kind of aggro and aggro control.

With this deck i did pretty well in a lot of small tournaments but i missed twice a top8 in a 50+ players competition... the deck is strong and flexible but it's too "fair"... i felt i needed something that sometime just wins.

For this reason i netdecked blindly a scapeshift version the day of another tournament making some little adjustments, here the list :

2 Swamp
2 Bayou
6 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold Creatures
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Sakura
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scapeshift
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard

1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reanimate
1 Memoricide
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
1 Profane Command
1 Firespout

With this list i won all the 6 games of the swiss and lost 1-2 in the final due to a lack of knowledge about the interaction between scapeshift and wasteland :|

By the way, this what i wanted! A strong deck, with a nice aggro-control plan that sometimes just draws a card and says "I WIN".

With this deck i won some games that would be impossible with thepunishing fire version.

The lessons i learnt from the tournament were the following :

Volrath is nice and helps you to combo out if you have veteran on the grave, but pyrexian tower allows you strong plays, in addition pyrexian tower help to avoid being sworded :)

All the other maindeck cards did well.

Sideboard: i think i wished for all the cards but profane command...it was my personal addition and i feel it's a nice card (maybe a C plan to win?) but usually when i have all this mana i go for scapeshift.

Carpet of flowers is ok, i got it alwayas countered. It shines vs canadian but against other blue based deck i feel i want something with more impact.

Compared with my punishing fire version this deck is weaker against combo (we have only memoricide to wish!) and UW miracle/stoneblade because this sideboard plan is less effective.

Jace is a bitch and wins alone, countertop hurts wish, terminus controls the board and in few turns they find entreat the angels eot....

Even burn it's not so easy as it appears, we have to ramp quickly and zenith for 5 lifes or die... and the scapeshift plan doesn't work beacause the POP us in response...in addition we have no good wish targets to take!!!

For this reason i thought to change some cards maindeck and sb, transforming a good deck in a junk deck, but i like it!

I want to introduce you my last version with those sweet additions!

2 Swamp
2 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold Creatures
1 Pyrexian Tower
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Sakura
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
------------------> 1 Terastodon !!!
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scapeshift
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard

1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Memoricide
3 Red Elemental Blast
--------------->3 Pyroblast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
--------------->1 Natural Order!!!
1 Firespout

Don't laugh :)

Terastodont is HUGE!
One maindeck card answers in a shot to Jace and Counterbalance, puts a consistent race against anyone, creates a big defence against tribals and aggro decks.
If you play it from your hand (not impossibile, just 8 mana) against blue based, they have only force to answer to it!

With the addition of a natural order in side you can put it into play sacrifing a green creature...and you can do this few turns before scapeshifting if you are in a hurry.

I tested this in a small tournament and in one turn i destroyed a sword of fire/ice, makig him bounce batterkull and i sacrified the third token to flashback a terapy for batterskull! He then topdecked vindicate :( but you got the message.

Natural order is so good:

... finally we have a wish target against monored! :)
... it's another (expensive) outlet to sac veteran if we need it!
... it's almost a tutor for all the creature in our deck (for example witness for a countered wish/scapeshift)

I think it's a nice idea and it deserves to be tested.

I cut carpets (making worst the canadian mu, i know, but read later) for other REB... i don't want to lose by UW decks and to deal with them you have to answer to sensei, counterbalance and jace... to stop counterbalance the better solution is pithing needle (it works vs jace too) but it stops our sensei's too and it dies to explosives and pernicious... so i chose to kill counterbalance and jace, meanwhile protecting myself from angels with deed. I can also play scapeshift with more confidence.

6 REB effects are so good vs canadian, they cannot stifle our veteran ability and cannot submerge us...
6 REB effects helps us to slow down a combo opponent and try to win somehow (scapeshift!??!)

wow, a long post :)

Thanks for reading to this point :)

-I would like to know what do you think about my recent updates
-I would like to know how would you sideboard against UW (miracletop and stoneblade)

[Qweerios]

I finished 4th at a local tournament today with my BUG Fit list featuring Sphinx of Uthuun and no Gifts. It went as follows:

1-1-1 vs. DnT
1-2 vs. Merfolk
2-1 vs. Sea Stompy
2-0 vs. Lands.dec

The results aren't very impressive but I was paired up and a lot of the players had draws because of the abnormaly high density of Lands/control players.

What is interesting to note here is that I should have lost to the DnT players if time was not called. There is always 2-3 DnT players and I steadily crush them. I blame the lack of removal and the abysmal CMC of the Fierce Empath/Titan/Sphinx package.

With the advent of Decay and Vraska, I intend to take Nic Fit in a FoW-less BUG Control direction. I think Decay will take Pulse's spot in many versions mainly because it is cheaper, instant speed, uncounterable, and accomplishes everything Pulse already does except destroy Batterskull, Elspeth, and reanimated fatties really... Here is what I am currently testing:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (26)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (24)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage

[Megadeus]

Maelstrom Pulse > Abrupt Decay. One card tilts in Pulses favor. Jace. He is the single worst thin for us. We need an efficient way to kill him and pulse does that

[Arianrhod]

@TheArchitect -- Of course you will. Dan's unfortunately under the delusion that there's an SCG open in Providence on the 22nd, so he scheduled Mythic against my local....aka I won't be there =( Hopefully next month...

So...thoughts....needs moar Rector. 2 Rectors in a Rector build can't be right. It's one of the best cards in the deck!

Grave Titan is fine since you don't have a Moat, but once you find one of those, I'd recommend making it a Yosei. Kokusho's very far on the back-burner now...Yosei is definitely the dragon of choice.

The Starved Rusalka has grumblegrumblecomplaincomplain been actually good for me, so I'd recommend you check it out as well. I've won a couple games now by being able to GSZ=1, my opponent scratches their head and lets it resolve, then suddenly Rusalka, hold priority, sac Rector, blowout.

If possible availability wise, I'd definitely recommend dropping the 4th Verdant for the 2nd Savannah. The extra white source really helps with Baneslayers, Sigarda, Humility, and Leyline (and Moat eventually). There's too many double-whites for 1x Savannah. I know JC just won a set at Jupiter, so you should be able to borrow one from him.

As for sideboard....don't worry about Chains. Chains is a fine choice if you're running Enlightened Tutor, but you aren't. Your storm-hate enchantment of choice should eventually be Nether Void. It stops them completely dead. Most storm decks (non-high tide) run literally like 11 or 12 lands in their entire deck. Void just kolds them.

I don't like Stony Silence -- it's one of those cards that's much better with Enlightened Tutor, and it doesn't actually hurt MUD. They can still punch you in the face big with robots. Try Serenity instead. Or Aura Shards if you really want to make Timur want to punch you. Sun Titan synergizes very nicely with Serenity, though.

Otherwise your board seems fine.

Now, for your specific questions:

Moat is definitely something you're going to need to get eventually. It's one of the major draws of the Rector version in the current metagame IMO, with Tribal (trying) to make a serious comeback. It's also solid against Maverick, because the evolution of Maverick has been largely away from Moat and Mindcensor. They can still Qasali it, obviously, but it will buy you at least a few turns to get more set up / to find & crack a Deed.

I've tried both Elesh and Angel -- the big problem that they share is that they're both 7-drops. Angel was fine in the board when Show and Tell was big, since you could Empath for it and just sit on it, but I wouldn't recommend it now. Elesh is the nuts against Maverick, but, 7-mana is a lot. Yosei is a better option for the other bomb, because time walking someone is perfectly acceptable, and if you can get it online with Nightmare, the game is over in quick and brutal fashion...much better than Nightmare+Angel, which will eventually get there, but very slowly. The round clock is sometimes more of an enemy than our opponent is, so having a decisive way to win the game is as important as ever.

Ooze has been fine in the board for me. It really is a good card, I just don't like it maindeck like literally everyone else in the world. It comes in vs RUG, Maverick, and any random graveyard deck. The 4th Deed is very important for your list, since you don't have Moat (which IMO fulfills much of the same purpose as the 4th Deed). The Duresses could be other options. If you had the availability, I'd recommend making them the Nether Void + a Harmonic Sliver, which has been quite good vs Miracles when they board in O-Rings. It also comes in vs Stoneforge Maverick vs Sword of Light and Shadow, which can be a serious problem. I don't board it in THAT often, but when I do, it's important to have access to it. If you don't have access to Nether Void, which seems fairly likely, you can use Curse of Exhaustion as a sort of pseudo-Void. It's nowhere near as good, but it'll still slow combo down, and you need to have a go-to storm hate option for Rector IMO.

Intent is the shit. This has been confirmed by last night.

Tribe-Elders have been really good for me. They can prevent lifegain from Batterskull (block, before dmg sac), they're an alternative ramp source which can increase the number of hands you can keep, they sac themselves which makes Recurring Nightmare much better in the early game (aka actually useful), and they don't ramp your opponent. They're also extra warm bodies for Therapy, which can be important sometimes. I do sometimes miss having the extra removal, but most of the decks that we want the spot removal against run Mother of Runes anyway, which makes spot removal bad. More sweep seems better...or in my case, more acceleration to endgame. RUG can't answer a Baneslayer profitably, ever, and if they somehow kill it with double Bolt or some such, they won't have anything for the next major threat. I'd rather be a little more pro-active, personally. Bob decks are whatever, because you just get Arena and sit on it. You have every bit as much card advantage as they do, but yours hurts less, and the cards you're drawing off of it are better. Revoker is the only real serious problem that I wish I had spot to deal with, but, again, the problem with Revoker is that he's always protected. Maverick and DnT have Moms, MUD has Chalice@1, etc. Swords is nice and all, but most of the time we can't use it anyway. I have been missing my Maelstrom Pulse, though, so that might well come back in, replacing the 2nd Elspeth. I wanted that slot to be the 4th Green Sun, but I'm not sure currently which is more important.

As for sideboard ...

MUD is a really annoying deck to board against. I'd take out the 1cc removal ASAP, because between Greaves and Chalice, it's just never going to happen. You aren't U/W control that can Force the Chalice and then Swords the metalworker. If you need more slots, pull a Daze with your Explorers -- leave them in on the play, take out 3 of them on the draw. That will leave you with one to GSZ for, but your hand won't be clogged with shit you can't cast.

I'd only bring in the Ooze and the 4th Deed vs goblins, probably cutting the Arena and the Innocent Blood. You need your blockers, they're just going to sac a token, etc. Arena's still a good card in the matchup because it can help you keep up with Ringleader, but it's going to get Deeded away constantly due to the relative high CMC of the goblin deck, and the 1/turn lifeloss can add up.

Hope that helps.

@EpicLevel -- look back a few pages for Bruizar's Intuition build if you want to go down that road. He's already figured out a list for that. A lot of us don't prefer it, but if that's where you want to be, then he's your man.

@PollePot -- I don't always sideboard out the 6s, but I do sometimes. It depends on the matchup...something faster like RUG, they come out for Carpets and I lean harder on my 5-drops. Something like Maverick, though, where I need all of the power I can get, I usually leave them in. Think of the 6-drop package as your game one breaker. They're gonna come in, crack some skulls, and win you a lot of game ones. Then boarding them out to lower your curve overall and bring in more responses to your opponent is perfectly fine. Not every matchup, but it's a normal thing to do it a lot. Like, Recurring Nightmare is almost never in my deck for game two, depending on how much I abused it game one. I expect people to have hate for Nightmare, so I just take it out. Then if I don't see hate, I bring it back in. That doesn't mean that I should cut Nightmare -- it means that it's actually one of the best cards in my deck. Like Sun Titan/Yosei...they're some of the most powerful cards in the deck. But that doesn't mean that they need to be there every game two. They serve an important function game one, and that's fine.

Armageddon is ass, and that guy is a douche for playing it. That's a really unusual build of Maverick, and it does not sound fun to play against. I'd recommend Wish->Cranial naming Armageddon ASAP. Then you can Scapeshift off at your leisure later on. Have you been running my updated Scapewish list, with the Bonfires in place of the Pulses maindeck? That would help the goblins matchup, I think.

@Cire_dk -- Firemind pretty much nailed it. The idea behind Empath is that you can Green Sun for your non-green 6-drops that way. Empath for Sun Titan, sac Empath to whatever, then Sun Titan bringing back Empath for Yosei is a savage beating that a lot of decks just crumple under. I'll grant you that Empath is a little underwhelming, and I do hope that one day we get a "better" Empath. Mwonvuli Beast-Tracker was really, really close. All it needed to say was "Flying" instead of "Reach," and I would have been allllllllll over that. So, hopefully one day. For now, though, I think it's still important.

@Gigioz -- Wood Elves is definitely better than Sakura-Tribe in Scapewish. Also, we talked about Natural Order some number of pages back, but I never actually tried it. How's it been for you, specifically, how often do you cast it and on what turn? Are you happy with Terastadon as your target, as compared to something else....Gaea's Revenge, perhaps, or Pelakka Wurm?

@Qweerios -- I'm definitely looking into that direction for my BUG list as well. It does seem like the place to be in the future. I haven't drafted a list yet, though...I'll have to do that sometime soon and compare notes.

-------------------------

Last night at my lgs, Nic Fit took 1st and 2nd :P I loaned out Scapewish to a good friend of mine, and played Rector. He got first because Scapewish is next to impossible to beat in the mirror, but I still took second so whatever. My matchups were DnT, Scapewish, Gamekeeper (fucking Emrakul), and Enchantress (fucking Emrakul). I was still raging the whole night about Emrakul from Saturday, but apparently higher powers agreed with me, because I saw 0 Emrakuls hit play all night, despite playing against two decks with the bastard in them. In fact, my deck seemed very angry against both of the Ermakul decks....Gamekeeper flooded out g1, then got quickly Cranial'd in g2. Poor enchantress got Deeded like 6 times game one, then g2 I Sliver'd his Sigil, Cranial'd his Replenishes, then Memoricide'd his Emrakul, leaving him with no win conditions left in his entire deck. Not having any of that bullshit, lol.

My friend playing Scapewish got paired up against RUG, me, DnT, and Combo Elves. He 4-0, 8-0'd, and he wasn't even playing it correctly the whole time. Deck is a monster. From what I saw of him playing, Bonfire was doing some pretty absurd work for him, aside from the deck just doing its thing.

That's all I've got for now =)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I missed most of the discussion about the BUG versions of the deck going back to page 95 because I was too busy to contribute much to The Source these last couple months. That's too bad, because a number of the decks suggested are incredibly similar to past incarnations (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19683-Deck-UGB-River-Rock-(formerly-Intuition-Thresh)) of UGB River Rock (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19683-Deck-UGB-River-Rock-(formerly-Intuition-Thresh)&p=608313&viewfull=1#post608313), my NO BUG list. I'm in the process of updating the primer to reflect the changes the deck has undergone in the last few months (and bringing it up to speed with Abrupt Decay), and should be done sometime in the next few days.

In any case, I just popped in to suggest that if anyone is still interested in developing the BUG version, it may be worth your (our) time to team up and combine our efforts. I've already done a great deal of testing with many of the cards and shells that you're suggesting, albeit in a different metagame, and all that info is pretty clearly organized and linked to across primers (with the corresponding discussions in the pages that follow in the thread). Likewise, your perspective--especially with the current metagame--could be useful in informing what I consider to be the deck's natural evolution (viz., into a NO BUG deck). I've always had the problem of insufficient testers for different ideas, and it looks like you've all been doing much of that work independently anyway.

[Claymore]

Good informative post!

I probably missed the Yosei discussions, but here are my thoughts on this:


Yosei is a better option for the other bomb, because time walking someone is perfectly acceptable, and if you can get it online with Nightmare, the game is over in quick and brutal fashion...much better than Nightmare+Angel, which will eventually get there, but very slowly. The round clock is sometimes more of an enemy than our opponent is, so having a decisive way to win the game is as important as ever.


I've been trying to replace Kokuso and my main testing trends right now are Angel, Yosei, and green fatties like Protean Hulk (need to try out Terastodon). As fun as Hulk can be, I'm keeping away from green in general because of Mother of Runes, since most of our board will be green and those Knights can kill us very quickly with a monocolored boardstate. I'm keeping below 8cc because the deck just can't get up that high quickly when you need that fatty to drop.

I think Yosei is definitely powerful with a little bit of set up, but in my testing the collateral damage of the increasingly popular Karakas (demand pushed the price up to $90 from about $50 a few months ago) is a huge liability. Aside from odd decks that have Karakas for vs SnT (Enchantress), DnT and Mav both can easily have Karakas on the board and this leaves Yosei a dead card in hand if you don't have an immediate sac outlet. I've been running the Yosei/Angel split card for now in testing against Maverick and haven't had a chance to really settle the score between the two, but generally have preferred Angel whenever I drew or wanted to fetch for either card. Additional sac outlets like Rusalka and Intent might help out Yosei though...

The game-ending Nightmare cycling with either doesn't really need to be all that intensive, as generally there aren't all that many permanents at that point that can stop us from winning.

--

With the inclusion of Rusalka and Intent, have you given thought to replacing Steve with Viridian Emissary? The 2/1 isn't too bad if you find yourself on the early aggro plan (helped kill a Jace in my last finals) and they both are a wash when you're on the defensive. However, for me the bigger concern is having to choose between a T2 Therapy and T2 ramp. Intent might get helped out more here too. I might roll with a 1/1 split and see how that feels, but when you're putting in more sac outlets it seems that an Emissary would synergize more with the deck overall.

I do see the joy in denying a Batterskull activation or two (and Jitte), but I think we can deal with high life totals just fine in the end.

--

With the question of 4th GSZ vs Maelstrom, I'd go with Maelstrom. The slightly extra consistency to get that Explorer is nice, but going from 1 to 2 removal spells gives the deck more control tools to draw and gives you a better chance of having one in the yard to recur with Witness, which flat out wins games. Can't tell you how many times I've been happy to top deck a Pulse against fresh KotR.

--

For vs Valakut, Teeg can stop the opposing GSZ and Scapeshift. Rector fetching a Leyline of Sanctity in response to Scapeshift can blank the spell for a turn, or nullify that win condition completely by fetching for the Leyline in response to all of the triggers.

[Zirath]

I don't like Stony Silence -- it's one of those cards that's much better with Enlightened Tutor, and it doesn't actually hurt MUD. They can still punch you in the face big with robots. Try Serenity instead. Or Aura Shards if you really want to make Timur want to punch you. Sun Titan synergizes very nicely with Serenity, though.

I don't think any of those cards beat Karn.

Though I agree with Kevin. Stony is probably the weakest hate you could pick. Serenity is the safest but Aura Shards would be very spicy and you might make Asher unhappy about it as well with your one sided Tranquilities.

[Giggioz]

@Gigioz -- Wood Elves is definitely better than Sakura-Tribe in Scapewish. Also, we talked about Natural Order some number of pages back, but I never actually tried it. How's it been for you, specifically, how often do you cast it and on what turn? Are you happy with Terastadon as your target, as compared to something else....Gaea's Revenge, perhaps, or Pelakka Wurm?


Natural order is a last addition i played it only in 1 small tournament, i think it has a very good potential and i'll keep testing it.
Terastodon saved my life in 1 game, destroying sword of fire and ice, targeting skull (bouced) and 1 land of mine...i flashback terapy on the token for skull and smiled :)
he topdecked vindicate and i lost :/
In another game jace saw terastodon with fateseal and put it on the bottom in one second... :)

Gaea's Revenge has some value and it's really good vs jace, and cheaper than terastodon...but it does nothing if the opponents goes for a terminus or has chumblockers. I think we should see both cards in the different matuchups to understand wich one is better...

i think i'll test it, thanks!

[Megadeus]

If you have Gaeas Revenge I think you may as well play Prime Time. He has trample, and can bring in Treetop Villages to kill off Jace along with Towers if that is more your thing. Either way he is probably just Bette than Gaeas Revenge.

[TheArchitect]

@Arianrhod: Thank you for the advice. Sorry you wont be able to make it.

Ugh, I really dont like Starved Rusalka lol. Ill try it out for myself first but blargh.

Ill give 3 rectors a try. I luckily have 3 already now that they are like 25$. Ha, got a foil one a few days before they spiked at only 30$ :p

Your right about the Moat and the savannah. They next on my to buy list.

Ill test out tribe elders in my removal slots. I like your idea of a more proactive approach, "dont worry about the turn 1 delver/lacky, just a get a deed and baneslayer out faster". Thats what this deck should be doing. Not trading 1cc spells for 1cc creatures.

If I scout out a lot of S&T Ill play Angel of Despair, otherwise grave titan seems good.

Thanks for the SB advice, your right about stony silence sucking. Serenity or Aura shards seems like a good choices, they beat random enchantress decks too. I wouldnt have thought of treating vets like dazes against chalice decks. Thats a great point.

Also, im pumped to try demonic intent. Love that card in EDH!

[Qweerios]

@Megadeus,

I disagree with you that Pulse is essential for Jace. I believe there are only 4 ways to efficiently handle a Jace, the first 2 being the best ones:

1. Play Jace before your opponent
2. Counter Jace
3. Beat on Jace
4. Destroy Jace via 2-for-1s (AKA: Angel of Despair, Vraska, Terrastodon, etc.)

I definitely think that BUG versions will benefit more from uncounterable, instant, UG removal than Pulse. Decay handles Islandwalk lords, Delvers, Counterbalance, Mangara/Karakas, and much more. I don't know about other Nic Fit players, but I pretty much scoop to T1 Mom, T2 Revoker without instant removal, and it is only a matter of time before Maverick players realize how good Revoker is. Replacing Pulse with Decay in BUG improves what is difficult to handle with the deck while taking away very little of what it is already good at.

@Giggioz,

Yeah I fail to see how Gaea's Revenge is any better than Prime Titan or Kodama.

[Megadeus]

This is where it hurts that we have so many different styles. I see your reasoning for not having pulse in BUG but in non blue versions we have no way to play or counter Jace. Maybe in a blue version Decay is better, but in non blue, pulse is probably still better as Planeswalkers are still pretty good against us.

Edit: I saw you mentioned Vraska. I still think Pulse > Vraska. Vraska in BUG maybe, but not in any other version.

[Arianrhod]

This is where it hurts that we have so many different styles. I see your reasoning for not having pulse in BUG but in non blue versions we have no way to play or counter Jace. Maybe in a blue version Decay is better, but in non blue, pulse is probably still better as Planeswalkers are still pretty good against us.

Edit: I saw you mentioned Vraska. I still think Pulse > Vraska. Vraska in BUG maybe, but not in any other version.

He's talking about a BUG version, lol. That's what I think about Vraska, too, by the way.

@Qweerios -- you missed one, by the way - arguably the best way to deal with him of all: Therapy him out before they have a chance to play him.

Also, will the uncounterable clause on Decay actually get around Mother of Runes? Since her ability would make an illegal target, the spell would be "countered," I'm just not sure which way it would go as far as the rulings are concerned. I want to say that Mom won't stop Decay, which would be amazing.

@Gaea's Revenge -- I think that it's worse than Primeval Titan 90% of the time, but I also think that it's better than Terastadon, especially where NO is concerned. Protection from nongreen spells and abilities is huge, and it's much bigger than Kodama (and haste). I'm not saying that I'd run at all, but I think that if we're talking about NO, Revenge needs to at least be mentioned.

Worldspine Wurm, obv. #trollface

@TheArchitect -- Oh, believe me, I hated everything about Starved Rusalka. I originally refused to play it on principle. Then I tried it, and in goldfishing it was amazing. Nic Fit is hard as hell to goldfish, but I could see enough to know that being able to GSZ for a sac outlet for an onboard Rector, Explorer, or Yosei is a -big- deal.

Rectors are 30 now =( Still shocked by that. Glad my three are foil, but now it's going to be literally impossible to find jap foil ones. Goddamnit.

You've got the right of it RE removal spells. It comes down to efficiency vs power. All non-blue versions are going to always prefer power instead of efficiency. The more powerful effect is just better, because we don't have the rampant card advantage to just 1-for-1 our opponents to death. The whole deck is literally built around 2, 3, and 4-for-1s. That's our "card advantage." Once we start going 1-for-1, we're playing their game, not our game. IMO non-blue versions in particular should focus more on ramping to the power, rather than hoping to draw 1-for-1 removal to survive until the power. It's a subtle difference, but it makes a pretty serious impact.

BUG is a little different, of course, since it actually gets to draw cards without needing to lean on Phyrexian Arena. It can afford some more efficient, less powerful answers as a result.

Good luck! I'll be expecting a report when you return =)

@Claymore -- My thoughts on Karakas are a definitive "Eh." If it's a big deal, we can just Vindicate or Fetters it. Usually, though, Yosei will be getting sacced immediately without passing priority, and once Yosei dies once, Karakas won't be untapping again. Yosei's also the only card that Karakas does anything to -- our only other legend is Sigarda, and she gives exactly none of the fucks.

I have considered Emissary, and he does play better with Therapy and friends, I'll grant. However, it comes back to the age-old discussion of card purpose. STE isn't in the deck to act as a body to sacrifice to stuff. He's there to ramp 1st, and sac 2nd. Emissary is there to sac 1st, and ramp 2nd, because he HAS to be paired with a sac outlet in order to ramp, which, if you have a sac outlet, you don't need Emissary or STE anyway, because you're going off with Explorer. I'd rather my "backup ramp dude" is able to actually ramp on his own without needing an outlet, personally, because that's his purpose. Now, if you had loaded up on sac outlets (multiple Intents, Culling the Weak, etc), then it's a different story -- then you want him primarily as a sacrificial lamb and secondarily as a ramp source. It all comes down to the purpose that you have in mind for the card....how you conceptualize that slot in your deck.

I'm very strongly leaning towards putting the Pulse back in. It'll need a little testing, obviously, but Pulse has historically been good for me, and it's something that is an easy board-out in a lot of matchups, which is nice.

Teeg is horrible vs Scapewish, because the deck is designed to deal with it. It has Deeds and BW->Virtue's Ruin (or Pulse) to get around that -- or it can just slow-roll Valakut enough to be able to kill Teeg with an activation and then Scapeshift off from there.

Leyline of Sanctity is much better, but it's still not great because it'll just get Deeded or Pulsed away before it's relevant. Also, the way I run Scapewish, the deck is more than capable of beating you down with dudes while keeping the board clear with Valakut...using your lands as infinite spot removal. A lot of people are taking it more "combo" focused with more discard and less creatures, but I think that's worse personally. The idea behind Scapewish is that it's a Nic Fit deck first, and a combo deck second. The combo blends seamlessly into the overall gameplan of the deck...it's not a "Valakut deck." It's a Nic Fit deck that uses a Valakut core. It all goes back to that question of conceptualization and intent. A good Scapewish deck isn't going to care about Leyline much, because it's just going to play around it. Instant-speed Rectoring in Leyline is a little bit different of a story, but I don't know how dumb the Scapewish pilot would have to be to walk into that =/

[Shawon]

Also, will the uncounterable clause on Decay actually get around Mother of Runes? Since her ability would make an illegal target, the spell would be "countered," I'm just not sure which way it would go as far as the rulings are concerned. I want to say that Mom won't stop Decay, which would be amazing.

Abrupt Decay can't be countered by spells or abilities, but it can still be countered before resolving if the legal target is removed. MoM effectively 'counters' Abrupt Decay by removing the legal target required for Decay's resolution. EDIT: And the legal target just needs to be legally removed once. So even if you Momentary Blink a creature that's the target of an AD, the AD will still be countered even if the creature is still on the battlefield after Blink resolves.

Spells (typically instants/sorceries) usually have a 'can't be countered by spells or abilities' clause if the said spell targets something, so that in cases such as Mom vs AD, they can still be countered if they fail to have a legal target for resolution. But spells that don't require targets, such as creatures, or Supreme Verdict, just have a 'can't be countered' clause so no matter what those spells will never be countered before resolution.

*goes back to lurking*

[Claymore]

Haha, I'm just saying that there are a few ways for Rector to circumvent the hardest part to beat of ScapeFit :P.

On STE, my view point is that if the deck is leaning towards a sac outlet core (it is approaching 8 or 12+ outlets with 2 Tower, 4 Therapy, 4 GSZ -> 1 Ruskala, Intent...depending on how you count GSZ and not counting Nightmare) then the more powerful card to roll with will be the Emissary since you have a high chance of having an outlet in hand. I count VE as being more powerful as it can be combined with 8 cards of the deck for profit (Rusalka being a weak #8), whereas STE finds marginal synergy with a lonely Nightmare and otherwise is a slightly warm old man on the field.

All that said, I do like this point you made:


I'd rather my "backup ramp dude" is able to actually ramp on his own without needing an outlet, personally, because that's his purpose

so I'll have to keep that in mind in my testing, and see when it is relevant and how it changes the game plan. tl;dr the pilot needs to see if they prefer 100% chance of ramp dude or 80*% chance of ramp/sac utility dude.

*with 12 sac outlets, this one website says you have a 81% chance of drawing one outlet in your opening hand. 35% of the deck can use VE for profit. Fuck if I know for harder math further than that, such as chance of drawing sac + 6 ramp dudes vs 4 ramp dudes and varying for 3 or 4 GSZ. I do chemistry, lol. http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic10.php

Also, this is the concept fueling my next Modern deck that will be graveaggro with a Jarad's Orders kill:


The idea behind Scapewish is that it's a Nic Fit deck first, and a combo deck second. The combo blends seamlessly into the overall gameplan of the deck...it's not a "Valakut deck." It's a Nic Fit deck that uses a Valakut core. It all goes back to that question of conceptualization and intent.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod,

Decay is more useful than Pulse against Mom because it is instant speed, not because of the "countered" clause. Along with a beefy creature, you can circumvent Mom with decay using combat tricks.

[HoneyT]

@Qweerios

That new BUG list you posted is almost card for card the list I'm working on when Return to Ravnica is released. Let me know how your testing fares!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Yep, Great Whale (or Palinchron, if I determine whether mixing it up game 2 and 3 would be a viable option) will be one of win-cons for my build. Why? Because it's so useful (and fun) to just do anything you want as a win condition. You can get around pretty much any kind of defense as long you anticipate it. They got Leyline of Sanctity? Exsanguinate. Strong counterspell suite? Tendrils of Agony. Both? Put in a bunch of tokens with Thragtusk and gain enough life to last you for the rest of the game. Possibilities are truly, truly outrageous. And it's all thanks to Recurring Nightmare and Great Whale/Palinchron.

Granted, grave-hate is a pita, as is a properly timed counterspell (i.e. countering the Recurring Nightmare itself). Also, setting up the combo is a bit of a hassle: might up my Intuition count to 4. But otherwise, it's been working great as an alt win-con (primary win-con is still smash face with giant dude).

[Cire_dk]

@Cire_dk -- Firemind pretty much nailed it. The idea behind Empath is that you can Green Sun for your non-green 6-drops that way. Empath for Sun Titan, sac Empath to whatever, then Sun Titan bringing back Empath for Yosei is a savage beating that a lot of decks just crumple under. I'll grant you that Empath is a little underwhelming, and I do hope that one day we get a "better" Empath. Mwonvuli Beast-Tracker was really, really close. All it needed to say was "Flying" instead of "Reach," and I would have been allllllllll over that. So, hopefully one day. For now, though, I think it's still important.



Thanks for the response. I understand its use with GSZ but is it not to slow. If I understand correctly it will take 2 turns most of the time to activate. Empath -Suntitan, next turn Play Sun sac empath, next turn Yosei etc. With Eladamri's Call (http://deckbox.org/system/images/mtg/cards/25646.jpg) it would be much faster. Since you need it towards mid end game the chances are, playing top and fetch, you will likely have seen the card. So it is speed vs utility. I guess I will just have to find out. :tongue:

PS How do I insert images correctly?

[litenkatt]

a question about the Scapewish deck:

To make it simple, say I have 8 forest in play. I then sac 8 forest for scapeshift and search for 2x valakut and 6x mountains. They all enter the battlefield simultaneously and I'm wondering, can I deal 36 damage in total or only 6? Since I need 5 mountains for valakut to trigger and then only the 6th would do damage, but as they all enter the battlefield at the same time will I then deal max damage?

Sorry if this has been asked already.

Also I can't decide if I want to play rector version or scapewish next sunday... problem is im missing the duals for scapewish but if I can get a hand on them I'll try that deck

[Viridia]

Because they all enter the battlefield at the same time the Valakut sees 6 mountains enter the battlefield. Now it checks, are there allready 5 others? Well yes there are!

[slikwilly]

Because they all enter the battlefield at the same time the Valakut sees 6 mountains enter the battlefield. Now it checks, are there allready 5 others? Well yes there are!

The important thing is it checks for EACH MOUNTAIN. So mountain 1 checks and yes, there are 5 others. Mountain 2 checks and yes there are 5 others. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's kinda insane really.

[TheArchitect]

EDIT: Disregard This. RTFC. derp.

So as long as you have 7 lands in play when you scapeshift (or one less for each valakut you already have in play) you can find 5 mountain and 2 valakuts and deal 30 damage. Or if 15 damage is enough you can scapeshift on 6 lands.

[eq.firemind]

So as long as you have 7 lands in play when you scapeshift (or one less for each valakut you already have in play) you can find 5 mountain and 2 valakuts and deal 30 damage. Or if 15 damage is enough you can scapeshift on 6 lands.
Valakut says
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle enters the battlefield tapped.
Whenever a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Mountains, you may have Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle deal 3 damage to target creature or player.
Tap: Add R to your mana pool.

This means that with 7 lands you should scapeshift for 1 Valakut and 6 mountains, resulting in 6 Lightning Bolts (18 damage).
This is usually enough because of fetchlands, FoW and your creatures.
8 lands Shift will result in 2 Valakuts and 6 mountains or overwhelming 36 damage.

[slikwilly]

Thanks for the response. I understand its use with GSZ but is it not to slow. If I understand correctly it will take 2 turns most of the time to activate. Empath -Suntitan, next turn Play Sun sac empath, next turn Yosei etc. With Eladamri's Call (http://deckbox.org/system/images/mtg/cards/25646.jpg) it would be much faster. Since you need it towards mid end game the chances are, playing top and fetch, you will likely have seen the card. So it is speed vs utility. I guess I will just have to find out. :tongue:

It's numbers. 3-4 zenith + 1 empath = 5-6 chances at a 6 drop. Or*replace empath w/ call and you only get two chances.

[Arianrhod]

Valakut says
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle enters the battlefield tapped.
Whenever a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Mountains, you may have Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle deal 3 damage to target creature or player.
Tap: Add R to your mana pool.

This means that with 7 lands you should scapeshift for 1 Valakut and 6 mountains, resulting in 6 Lightning Bolts (18 damage).
This is usually enough because of fetchlands, FoW and your creatures.
8 lands Shift will result in 2 Valakuts and 6 mountains or overwhelming 36 damage.


It's numbers. 3-4 zenith + 1 empath = 5-6 chances at a 6 drop. Or*replace empath w/ call and you only get two chances.

I don't even have to say anything this morning -- you guys already answered the questions correctly lol. So yeah, people who are wondering why Empath and how Valakut works, there you go.

I'm just going to go continue being miserable. I hate colds.

[fireiced]

So as long as you have 7 lands in play when you scapeshift (or one less for each valakut you already have in play) you can find 5 mountain and 2 valakuts and deal 30 damage. Or if 15 damage is enough you can scapeshift on 6 lands.

there must be a MIN of SIX mountains and 1 Valakut! :p

so MIN scapeshift land count is SEVEN!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Speaking of Abrupt Decay's wording ... anyone see the new wording for Gilded Drake?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5837

[slikwilly]

Speaking of Abrupt Decay's wording ... anyone see the new wording for Gilded Drake?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5837

That... looks like how I remember it being for a while. Care to elaborate?

[Claymore]

Wow, that's...unusual. Why would they do that, it has no bearing on the card's original intent at all.

^I imagine he's referring to the "Can't be countered by spells or abilities". If its always been like that then I'm not sure why the text is there.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@slikwilly

"Can't be countered except by spells or abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely)."

^

That's what I'm referring to. Very confusing for me.

EDIT: jinxed lol

[Claymore]

Wait, I see now, I was thinking it meant "Can't be countered BY spells and abilities", not "This ability can't be countered EXCEPT by spells and abilities". Now it makes more sense.

[Arianrhod]

Looks to me like the card still works the exact same way -- they just closed up a few potential loopholes. Unless I'm missing something...?

[fireiced]

what? no more stifle of that trigger?!

[Arianrhod]

That still works. It says "can't be countered EXCEPT BY spells or abilities." So Stifle still works.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Yeah. I mean I don't know how it could fizzle. I mean it still works, but that clause threw me for a loop.

Anyhow that was a fun derailment but time to get back to Nic Fit.

What are some good piles for GBu?

[Megadeus]

Played Punishing Fire Fit Last night. 2-1-1 in swiss to make top 8 and finished with a top 4 split. If we had played I think I had favorable match ups. RUG, Rock, and UR delver.

Round 1: Maverick Lost 1-2

Basically never really got much going. I mulled into oblivion the 2 games I lost and the one that I won was thanks to Punishing Fire and Liliana.

Round 2 Bye I always get these!!! :( Got a Jap Tamiyo for my BUG standard deck through trading though!

Round 3: UW Delver Won 2-1

Game 1 He just had a lot of counters for everything I did. I could beat anything but a Geist of Saint Traft. Games 2 and 3 I stabilized at healthy Life Totals and my Broodmate Dragon was awesome.

Game 4: Stoneblade: Draw into top 8


Top 8: Maverick Same as my first round opponent.

This time I actually got good hands and I just did what Punishing Fire does vs Maverick. Neither Game was very close.

2-0

Next week I should have a better report thanks to the SCG Invitational and SCG Opens being here in Atlanta. I expect a lot of people to show up and be testing for Friday. May change my board up a bit in anticipation of a few Show and Tell decks. Definitely adding a Third Liliana to the board. Probably will end up dropping my grove and punishing Fire out of my SB for Liliana and either another durress or another edict effect.

[Qweerios]

I tied for first place at a small tournament (20-25 ppl):

2-0 vs. Affinity
2-1 vs. High Tide
2-1 vs. Burn


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage

[slikwilly]

Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan


Why Prime Time instead of Grave Daddy? GSZ?

[Qweerios]

@Slikwilly,

Yes, for GSZ. Volrath Tower pretty much seals games with Witness/Thrag/Planeswalkers. The beauty of this engine is that the cards work wonder independently and the combination is rarely worth siding GY hate for. If I could fit a Creeping Tar Pit, Primeval Titan would be perfect.

[Star|Scream]

Wait. What happened to Gifts? Genesis? Oracle?

[sumbahdy]

I tied for first place at a small tournament (20-25 ppl):

2-0 vs. Affinity
2-1 vs. High Tide
2-1 vs. Burn


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage


Congrats on the results. I see you favored more Walkers than the GSZ package and Gifts. How did the Walkers turnout? With fewer Creatures to search, going all Green is the way to go. What about the loss of acceleration due to no Oracle? What does Garruk bring to the deck with fewer creatures now?

[Megadeus]

Can't find room for the tar pit? Itseems so good. The Jace slayer!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@Qweerios

I've got to ask, what are your thoughts on Recurring Nightmare versus Volrath's Stronghold? Because I really like the synergy you got going with Tower and Stronghold, but I'm impartial to Recurring Nightmare's explosive capabilities.

[slikwilly]

@Slikwilly,

Yes, for GSZ. Volrath Tower pretty much seals games with Witness/Thrag/Planeswalkers. The beauty of this engine is that the cards work wonder independently and the combination is rarely worth siding GY hate for. If I could fit a Creeping Tar Pit, Primeval Titan would be perfect.

Huh. Looks cool, might have to try it out, though lacking trops is a problem for me.

Any of you multi-variant players think that playing a variety of Nic Fit decks improves your overall skills with your preferred version? Or does it just muddy the picture? I'm too invested in a rector build now to change but the others seem fun in their own way.

Speaking of rector builds, I tried rusalka tonight. Definitely enabled some nifty otherwise impossible plays. That card needs a nickname though. I nominate 'crack ho' thanks to a thought process that probably only makes sense to me... :eyebrow:

[KMS]

Any of you multi-variant players think that playing a variety of Nic Fit decks improves your overall skills with your preferred version? Or does it just muddy the picture? I'm too invested in a rector build now to change but the others seem fun in their own way.

Playing different styles makes you fammiliar with the different archetypes. But more importantly is knowing what kind of player you are.
I am playing BUG with splash, I like conmbo and cantrips that is my playstyle, wich doesnt get boring. I am not very fnd of attacking.
so *dumb creatures like tarmagoyf I dont like at all*

Other point that is important, knowing your deck inside out and ofcourse the meta.
I have been playtesting a bit on mws lately (10 games orso) and Now I have learned again that the deck is extremely difficult to play yet very powerfull.
if I lose its mostl because of a severe misplay, mostly I win though with misplays or non optimal plays..

Get focussed and you will dream the deck. But before you do, know what your playstyle is.
Mud Stacks, Combo, Ramp, Conrtol, Denial... very important for at least me


I have played rector as an early build which originates from the alluren build I had to go turn 2 aluren. After tinkering I have played it with the same engine targets: recurring nightmare, day of the dragons and even decree of silence.
The thing is you can do allot, the danger in my perspecitive is that it is very easy to build a deck and just become a weaker version of anything else.
The engine is solely made for warping to mid-late game AND have a clear edge over the opponent. With that in mind most or all have a form of board control. and then you decide which pathyou take.
For instance if you want fast agro, better play goblins.. or combo go for hightide or ant..

my game plan is:
hand disruption
board control

options that I have:
Combo - palinchron - recurring nightmare
Denial - Iona
Board control - Kederek leviathan


Plays as follow
Gitaxian probe
Therapy
Veteran explorer - therapy
intution

Versus mono colorered standard play:
Iona-unberrial rites-gigapede

Kederek leviathan versus Show and Tell / Planeswalkers / big mobs
Kederek leviathan + animate death = each turn bounce the board

Palingchron + recurring nightmare infi combo
palinchron + phantasmal image is Ramp

Phantasmal image - palichron = ramp
Phantasmal image - kederek is show and tell loop
Phantasmal image - random mob unremovable since it dies when it becomes a target yay

playing with unearth for: phantasmal image/eternal witness/veteran explorer

and ofcourse the random ooze which just wins games due to the removal and life gain.

still thinking wheter i should play woodfallprimus or karn
SB plan atm
Show and Tell + package
Carpet of flowers
Gaddog Teek
Loaming Shaman



With rector your gameplan should be something similar because when youcast rector you want to sac it imidiatly and win. So combo
perhaps you want to share your list so we can analye and perhaps make it even better then it already is
with rector I keep thinking of aluren, its a really fun deck to play. and like I said, you can go turn 2 with daze backup or handdisruption
You have to have recruiters though, and they are not easy to obtain.

[Qweerios]

@Star Scream,

I droped the Gifts package 2 weeks ago. It eats up a lot of deck space, and opens you up to GY hate. T2-3 Jace is often better than Gifts. Oracle are nice, but I think Decay will quicky replace them.

@EpicLevelCommoner,

If you look back in the thread, you will find a discussion on Recurring Nightmare. All I will say is that I think it is win-more in version non-rector. As for Volrath Tower, I have been playing it since my first successful GB Nic Fit list using Primeval Titan and Treetop Villages (a version I might go back to when Decay comes out).

@Slikwilly,

I personaly played/own every iterations of Nic Fit except for Jund Fit that I recently sold (before scapewish). I think that what makes you a good Nic Fit player is reflected in your use of Therapies, sequencing of plays, and build-up of your manabase in a tricolored version. These are the things I tend to focus on more during a game because:

-Therapy considerations makes you keep track of your opponent's potential plays;

-Sequencing your plays reflects the importance of certain cards in your hand with regards to surviving the first turns vs. resolving important spells against counterspells;

-Planing your manabase with regards to your color requirements, CMC curve, and land availlability while considering potential disruption is key to getting a game going.

As for KMS' "playstyle" take on Nic Fit playing skills, I explained before that I don't believe in playstyle as an argument for anything really. The term gets tossed around a lot (I know Arianrhod employs it regularly) and often times can be substituted by: "my opinion" or "my personal preferences". However, as a general guideline to play Magic, I agree that it is important to know what strikes your fancy as you play, but I don't think it reflects any measurement of what makes you good at playing a certain archetype. A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc... Personal preferences don't come into play during a game, they merely affect your deck choices, which is not to be confused with card choices.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

. . . seems like I have a lot of digging to do, both for bruizar's intuition build and for the discussion on Recurring Nightmare in non-rector versions.

Anyhow, I see what you're saying in response to KMS, but to be fair, some card choices are less obvious than others, hence why there are so many potentially viable variants of this one archetype (3 of which I'm fairly confident have been proven viable [RectorPod, BG-straight, and Scapewish]), and I believe KMS was asking if playing different variants of Nic Fit improved one's ability to play with Nic Fit as a whole.

Which I'm curious: does it? Because then that opens up the potential for transformational sideboards.

[KMS]

What kind of transformational are you thinking about?

I love being graveyard heavy in game one and then if nessecary going transformational with show and tell, letting the opponent board in a pile of crap

What kind of transformational idea'a do you have?!? Im very curious about your build and thoughts
I still need to implent a natural order package
Woodfall primus
Progenitus
Woodspine Wurm

Broken with cantrips yeah baby! And ofcourse pimped out! Im expecting a pimp pic from brewsars MUB pile of pimp

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Yeah something like that. More or less sticking with the same archetype, but changing how you win the game.

[Arianrhod]

@EpicLevel -- One quick word -- Rector notequals RectorPod. In fact, Rector, which does figure into Pod lists, is not a limiting name for Pod. Pod is Pod. Rector is Rector -- two different versions. I can't speak for Pod, but Rector has definitely been proven viable. BUG has been close a couple of times, but I don't think that anyone outside of Qweerios has reported longterm success with it. Caffrey started really strong and then scrubbed, and I think Caleb got what, like 20-something-th?

And yeah, you do have a lot of reading to do =)

@The "other versions make you better" Theory -- The things that you get better with by playing other versions are things that you get better with by playing your "primary" version, IMO. Like naming with Cabal Therapy -- that's a skill that will improve no matter what version of Nic Fit you're playing, so long as you're playing Nic Fit. I personally play other versions not because I want to get better with the archetype overall, but because I enjoy them. I enjoy this archetype, not just "this deck" or "that deck." There are other prevailing reasons, like winds, such as local metas, mood, etc, of course -- but overall I count myself as a Nic Fit player and designer first, and a Rector player/Scapewish player/BUG player/whatever a distant second.

@Personal playstyle preference -- Since Qweerios kind of shipped this ball into my court, I'm going to try my best to explain my position on it. I'll warn you now that this may grow long, and that I have a headache, so I may make less sense than usual. You have been warned.

I am a firm believer in the principle that when we want to do something, we do better at it.

This seems like it's totally obvious, but bear with me.

I could pick up TES, and play it. I'm not gonna say I'm going to play it optimally, or even close to well. In fact, I'll probably make a pile of mistakes and rage my way into the 0-X bracket, which will put me on lifetilt, and make me angry outside of the game. That said, I'd probably do some things right. I'll borrow this from Qweerios:


A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc

I agree with this. But I put a lot of stock into the notion of mental state. If for some reason I wanted to play TES...actually WANTED to...I could probably do a passing good job at these categories. But it would take a strange day for me to want to play that deck, so the likely truth is that I would fail Qweerios' classifications of "a good magic player."

Qweerios and I agree up to the point where archetype selection ends. I don't think there are many people who are going to say that, in legacy, if you play anything but the "best deck," you're doing it wrong. Legacy is a much more open format, where it's usually hard to determine what the "best deck" is. Legacy players are also more likely to devote themselves to an archetype, because of the non-rotational way the format works. Look at Nick Patnode. The man knows his goblins. He's played goblins for basically ever, and he can do stuff with that deck that shouldn't be possible. It doesn't matter that goblins isn't always a good choice for a tournament. He rocks it anyway, and it usually works out well for him. Only the spikiest spikes will say otherwise.

So yeah. You like Nic Fit. Congratulations. Now what?

I'm going to note here that I'm unsure of where Qweerios leaves off. I think I know from our previous debates on the subject, but I don't want to put words in his mouth, so I'm going to switch to using "some people," just in case. I do respect his opinion, and I mean no offense.

Some people say that within an archetype, there exists a "perfect deck." Now, this ideal of a perfect deck is somewhat akin to the New Critics. If anyone here's studied Lit Theory, you can probably guess where I'm going with this. For the rest of you: the New Critics basically said that reader interpretations and personal preference is meaningless, because there is only One True Correct interpretation of a text, namely, that of its author. As such, they focused a lot of work in finding out what they called the authorial intent of a work. Now, there are all kinds of problems with this, and I don't want to get into a tirade on New Criticism, because I dislike their viewpoint a great deal (I tend more towards mythopoetic posthumanist interpretations, with a hint of Marxist theory splashed in for good measure). One True Correct Interpretation is very similar to the Perfect Deck. Just as there is a correct interpretation and everything else (and everyone else) is wrong, there is a perfect 75. I won't even say 76, because most thinkers in this vein are too strict to bend even that little.

Now, they'll couch their terminology in language that evokes flexibility. "Oh, I mean there's a perfect deck for this tournament." And that may well be true. There may well be a combination of cards that, based on the strict data of the event, who shows up with what decks, configured in what ways, etc, such that you can have a statistically best chance of beating every person in the room. I don't doubt that this exists.

However, where I disagree is that this viewpoint discounts the human. It discounts that certain people, after playing a certain deck for a certain amount of time, can ignore the odds. It discounts the mental state of mind that you can get in when playing a certain deck, configured your way, not just "the" way. I'm more mystic than scientist, I'm afraid.

So let's bring things back to Earth with a long-raging debate, which I will preface by stating that I'm using it as an EXAMPLE. I have NO desire to start this fire again. It's just an example.

Let's go back to the Liliana of the Veil debate for just a few minutes. Liliana is a powerful card, and I strongly appreciate her in certain decks, specifically those with Punishing Fire and/or Life from the Loam. However, some people are staunch supporters of Liliana, and regard her as something of a sacred cow, like, say, Green Sun's Zenith. If you cut (or choose not to run) Liliana of the Veil, then you are moving your deck further away from the Perfect Ideal (let's change terminology to get a little Plato in here), and making the tournament you're going to harder to win.

What does Liliana of the Veil do? I have a sinking feeling that this section is going to revive the old debate, and I'll reiterate again that that is not my wish. It's merely the easiest example to understand.

Liliana of the Veil does the following:

Keeps both players in topdeck mode, unless one player has a means of drawing multiple cards in a turn.

Synergizes really, really well with flashback spells, Life from the Loam, Punishing Fire, and similar cards that return to your hand, providing you with a means of keeping your opponent hellbent.

If you don't have either of these options, Lily limits the number of things that are capable of happening in a game to those which are onboard and those which are on the top of the deck. If you have a Sensei's Top, you're likely in a good spot because your deck manipulation should be better than your opponents'.

However, they might have a Top.
However, they might be playing Brainstorm.
However, they might not have the three lands on top of your deck that you do.
However, they might have a better board presence than you do.
However, they might be playing Reanimator (obv. you don't +1 here, but bear with m)
However, they might be playing Sneak Attack.
However, they might be playing Burn.
Etc. The list goes on forever.

The point is not that there are a lot of "might be"s that interfere with your plan. The point -is- your plan. By playing Liliana of the Veil, you're committing yourself to one of the possible eventualities. You will keep both players hellbent. You will break PFire. Etc. But the opportunity cost of that decision leads to all of these problems.

But that isn't even the biggest problem with Liliana of the Veil. The biggest problem is one of personal preference.

I, personally, prefer not to play Liliana of the Veil.

Why would I do this? Why would actively injure my chances of winning an event? Why would I design my deck to be further from the Perfect Ideal? Isn't this just crazy? Everyone agrees!

Ignoring the mob mentality, what does NOT playing Liliana of the Veil do?

Both players are not constrained to be hellbent.

That's really just about it. Sure it gives you some slots in your deck, it means you don't need double-black early, and it means you have a longterm plan vs something like Enchantress by putting all of their permanents in piles. But really, at the core of the issue, that one central point stands out.

Isn't your opponent being hellbent a good thing? Hell yes it is. However, in my opinion, in my PREFERENCE, having cards in hand is a good thing. They represent future options, as yet untold opportunities. Threats that have no answer, and answers that have no threat to solve yet, but which might be lurking behind any rip off the top.

Liliana of the Veil leaves the game up to "luck." I quotation luck here because it isn't really luck. I understand that. You have Top, you have the best topdecks in the entire format, you have heaping piles of board presence. Nic Fit isn't a deck that lives in its hand, it lives balls-out, with its junk plastering the table, only occasionally spurting across its opponents' boards with wracking convulsions that ruin their day.

I may have gotten a little involved in my metaphor.

Anyway, I hope that the context was enough to get the idea across. Our hands aren't important, so why do I insist on keeping mine as opposed to reaping the benefits of Lily?

Because it's my preference. I play better when I have a hand. It's just that simple. And before the trolls come out of the woodwork asking why I'm playing -this- deck, then, when it so obviously doesn't require or often desire having a hand, I'll just preemptively point at the results, and at my history in this thread.

The Perfect Ideal deck is not the Perfect Ideal deck for every person. Removing the human element, that of preference, removes the strength of the deck. I could time-travel back a few years and play Mystical Reanimator, which was arguably the closest to a "best deck" the format has had in the past few years (personal opinion. Survival wasn't that bad, people were just lazy.). But that doesn't mean that if I'm playing the Perfect Ideal deck for an event, that I'll do well with it. It isn't to my preference. I mean sure, it's a powerful monster and I'll get some mileage out of it. But I value my human desires much more strongly than the coldness of math.

So if I play a tournament with a Nic Fit list sporting Liliana of the Veil, I won't do as well, even if it's a better choice for the deck on that given day (I've actually tried this).

I feel like I've gotten a little far afield here, so I'm going to pull back to reality with a quote from my esteemed colleague's post:


A good Magic player will take in-game decisions based on the board state, hand sizes, potential plays, potential draws, etc... Personal preferences don't come into play during a game, they merely affect your deck choices, which is not to be confused with card choices.

I'm not sure if Qweerios means card choices in the sense of individual card selection in an archetype (ie Lily in Nic Fit), or card choices as in which card you play when (ie do I brainstorm this mainphase or hold it to dig for a counter). Regardless, saying that personal preferences don't come into effect during a game is something that I disagree with.

If I'm playing vs Sneak and Show, I guarantee you that I'm going to play worse than if I'm playing against Maverick. Hell, I have recent evidence of this from Jupiter (well, as "evidence" as can be when we're talking about something like this). I played against five Ermakul decks rounds 1-5. Now, I hate Ermakul decks with an everloving passion. They're stupid, they're not fun to play against, they're too strong, whatever excuse you'd like to put in my mouth, go ahead. I fucking hate Emrakul as a card both from a game standpoint and from a design standpoint. It's like you have a 3-yr-old a crayon and some pens and told him to design a card.

I did not enjoy playing against those Emrakul decks. They were not my preference. This does not mean that I didn't still play well enough to beat three of them. But I know I made mistakes and slips up that I wouldn't have otherwise made, because my confidence wasn't there. Confidence is another one of those esoteric concepts that statistics can't really say much about. When you're confident, you play better. You make more correct plays, actually, would be a better way to put it. Here's a definition: [b]When you're playing in your preference zone, you're playing more confidently/[b]. This seems to me to be a good thing.

When I played against Maverick later that day, I was feeling pretty confidant. Relieved, even. Here was something that was a good matchup at long last. The games I played with Jesse that round were some of the most lopsided blowouts I've ever had against Maverick in the 15-odd months I've been playing this deck. Nothing about them was even slightly close...or at the very least, that's how it felt to me. Maverick was my preferred opponent, and there was nothing he could do to stop me.

I feel like I've gotten a little far afield yet again, unfortunately, so I'm going to pull out...I mean back....what? And provide a summary.

I reject the notion that there is ever The Perfect Ideal deck for any given event, and that theoretically everyone in the room should strive to locate it.

I will bend as far as to say that there is a Perfect Ideal deck for any given event with any given pilot, however. My Perfect Ideal deck is different than Qweerios' Perfect Ideal deck for the same event, in my opinion.

Preference is confidence. Confidence is match win slips. The more you prefer your deck and your opponent, the better plays you will make throughout, which will convert directly into wins. Playing to your preferences therefore helps you win.

Now, I'm going to go rest a bit, because I've tired myself out posting this =( I hate being sick =.=;; but at least I'm recovering quickly.

I'll try to post some more thoughts on various topics for you all later. I'll just close for now though by once again stating that none of that is meant as a personal attack on anyone who feels the opposite way that I do (thinking of Qweerios in specific, as he's been a very vocal supporter of that viewpoint). My opinion was summoned, and in my delusional state I felt it was a good idea to share it =)

[Megadeus]

I don't mean to add fuel to the liliana debate because it has gone on for awhile, but kind of like you said, we play off of the top of our deck. I'd rather make it into both of us doing it. My personal preference. Plus having an edict is sweet. I understand what you mean though. Sometimes you either don't like playing with a card or are not good at it despite it being powerful. A friend of mine has won a couple of legacy opens this year playing UR Delver, and he even admitted that when Jace was in standard he didn't play Jace because he just wasn't good enough. It really pays to play what you know how to play.

Not saying you aren't good enough to play with Liliana, you're probably better than me, just giving an example

[Greenpoe]

What kind of transformational are you thinking about?

I love being graveyard heavy in game one and then if nessecary going transformational with show and tell, letting the opponent board in a pile of crap

What kind of transformational idea'a do you have?!? Im very curious about your build and thoughts
I still need to implent a natural order package
Woodfall primus
Progenitus
Woodspine Wurm

Broken with cantrips yeah baby! And ofcourse pimped out! Im expecting a pimp pic from brewsars MUB pile of pimp

If you go for Natural Order, then you'll want sources of card advantage and plenty green creatures with a CMC of 3 or less (because if you're deck is top-heavy, then you might as well just cast those creatures instead of NO). So when playing with NO, you'd probably want 3 Eternal Witness instead of 1 or 2, probably a Kitchen Finks, and cards which still have good utility even in the late game but are still CMC 3 or less, stuff like Ohran Viper, Knight of the Reliquary or even just straight-up cantrip cards like Wall of Blossoms, Elvish Visionary, Heart Warden or Yavimaya Elder. Yavimaya Elder looks pretty decent. 3 mana for a 2/1 that gives you up to +3 CA and acts as an extra Explorer?

[Megadeus]

The best ones I would think are Wall of Blossoms and E Witness. The card advantage that they provide is simply awesome.

[KMS]

Thanks a million Arianrhod! Its like reading my thoughts insights and believes, could have been my text really! I see you can see the essence and greater picture and not only in magic, but in the understanding of the mind and motivation.
That is EXACTLY what I ment by preffered playstyle, it really is important though one should keep his or her eyes open since you know what you know. And some are still finding out but unaware.


@Greenpoe
Indeed if I want natural order I need more green creatures- solely show and tell is just very weak game two if you are not sure it will resolve meaning that therapy has a bigger role in your opening hand. You just dont want to face an extirpate on show and tell when you boarded a whole package for it. If you cab protect it's just broken.

I love alters but you can only succeed on x opponents since for instance show and tell decks are much more viable, and with an alter it will be a weaker version, again broken versus some

I might swap to alter in a more creaturebased deck, like thracktusk.
If it aint viable I'll have to stick to haters and protectors
Im convinced that a transformational sidedboard is much more in place though since the engine opens so many options.
But one thing you really really have to keep in mind, if your engine gets broken what is your next plan?

[KMS]

The best ones I would think are Wall of Blossoms and E Witness. The card advantage that they provide is simply awesome.

Well wall of blossoms hust slows you down for one turn, its a chump blocker but doesnt do anything and is only good versus some decks that want to attack. Eternall witness however is very good.

Though as GSZ target maybe go on the exalted line, you will have ramp and disrupt.
So hierarch, dryad arbor, quasali. That way you can still ramp even without veteran explorer, give a early clock and then take control or dump a bomb
So it works the other way around, not sure if it works out well

Makes me think back of a concept of cephalid constable (the one deck that actually played tarmagoyf!) an with the key card riding the dilu horse

[Arianrhod]

I posted my physical Rector build in pimp thread, if anyone wants to see what it looks like. Scapewish isn't pimp enough to post yet, and BUG is still in the developmental stages, really, so Rector's the only one I can really post atm.

[Megadeus]

We talking pimp here? I got some moderately played Deeds and a foil Broodmate! How's that for pimp?!

[KMS]

@Arianrhod

In your list Im kind of missing dat of the dragons, have you concidered that card?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I love Stronghold Tower. Especially with Persist creatures like Finks and Primus.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Woodfall Primus

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Intuition
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Unburial Rites

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland

4 Verdant Catacomb

2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains

[UseLess]

Have you considered a single life from the loam? Either in SB/MB, because it looks really strong with the utility lands and makes it much easier to recur those apart from witness. Looks like an interesting list, can you apply enough pressure with only so few creatures?

[CalebD]

Preference is confidence. Confidence is match win slips. The more you prefer your deck and your opponent, the better plays you will make throughout, which will convert directly into wins. Playing to your preferences therefore helps you win.

I don't fully disagree with you, as I definitely play better when I'm having fun, but I do think Queerios's explanation is more valuable.

When a person does better with a preferred card, it's not necessarily due to that preference. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

"Playing the cards I like makes me confident," is a better reason, but the flipside is that your confidence issue is probably rooted in something. This insecurity will hurt your game in the long run, and offer a cop out every time you don't fully understand something you need to learn to get better as a player--"It doesn't fit my play style." That cop out doesn't exist in Queerios's interpretation of preferences.

In many cases, people don't understand why a card is in a deck. They might do well with the deck despite this, but they're probably better off exchanging the cards for others. If a player doesn't bring in his Mindbreak Traps because "they're blue and I'm playing a red deck," they're better off boarding Thorn of Amethyst, even if Mindbreak is a better card for the given metagame.

This is a simple example, but you can extrapolate how, as the cards and interactions get more subtle and sophisticated, so might our (in)ability to understand the reasons for things. I have friends that love casting Liliana, and others that don't. I also have friends that can reliably beat Jace with a Lili. If I were to draw a venn diagram of my friends that don't like Lili and those that can reliably beat a jace with one, it would just be a pair of non intersecting circles.

Cards gain and lose value depending on how well you can craft a plan around them, and a maser craftsman should be able to use every tool at his disposal. If you only craft book shelves as a hobby and you have no need to make anything else but book shelves, then there's no harm in maintaining a limited toolbox, but pretending that's all you or anyone else needs to be a full fledged carpenter is naive.

Angel's Mercy might feel good, and make you more confident, but odds are if you think you're winning more because of it you're missing something.

[litenkatt]

I posted my physical Rector build in pimp thread, if anyone wants to see what it looks like. Scapewish isn't pimp enough to post yet, and BUG is still in the developmental stages, really, so Rector's the only one I can really post atm.

wow, impressive!

[Zirath]

I don't fully disagree with you, as I definitely play better when I'm having fun, but I do think Queerios's explanation is more valuable.

When a person does better with a preferred card, it's not necessarily due to that preference. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

"Playing the cards I like makes me confident," is a better reason, but the flipside is that your confidence issue is probably rooted in something. This insecurity will hurt your game in the long run, and offer a cop out every time you don't fully understand something you need to learn to get better as a player--"It doesn't fit my play style." That cop out doesn't exist in Queerios's interpretation of preferences.

In many cases, people don't understand why a card is in a deck. They might do well with the deck despite this, but they're probably better off exchanging the cards for others. If a player doesn't bring in his Mindbreak Traps because "they're blue and I'm playing a red deck," they're better off boarding Thorn of Amethyst, even if Mindbreak is a better card for the given metagame.

This is a simple example, but you can extrapolate how, as the cards and interactions get more subtle and sophisticated, so might our (in)ability to understand the reasons for things. I have friends that love casting Liliana, and others that don't. I also have friends that can reliably beat Jace with a Lili. If I were to draw a venn diagram of my friends that don't like Lili and those that can reliably beat a jace with one, it would just be a pair of non intersecting circles.

Cards gain and lose value depending on how well you can craft a plan around them, and a maser craftsman should be able to use every tool at his disposal. If you only craft book shelves as a hobby and you have no need to make anything else but book shelves, then there's no harm in maintaining a limited toolbox, but pretending that's all you or anyone else needs to be a full fledged carpenter is naive.

Angel's Mercy might feel good, and make you more confident, but odds are if you think you're winning more because of it you're missing something.

Correlation always implies some sort of causation. That's the point of being a scientist. Just because it is not the obvious answer doesn't mean there is not a conclusion you can draw. Even if you cannot draw a direct relationship between the parameters, it does not mean it is not there. Correlation is the motivation to show that a causation is present.

An example of this is RUG Delver. RUG was heavy on the Stifle plan about 6 months ago. Now, Stifle is absent from almost every list. Is that because Stifle is a bad card in this meta? Maybe. It could also be that Stifle is a very complex card and requires a high skill level to use effectively; most people throw their Stifles at fetches without thinking carefully about how important the card is. Or it could be that players are playing around the Stifle fetchland plan so RUG pilots thought the card was too weak because the more subtle uses we're not immediately obvious. Or maybe it's all three. In fact, we definitely know all of these are reasons that the majority of RUG pilots have moved away from Stifle. Granted this specific example is reverse correlation but all the situations give motivations for the causation of "Cut Stifle".

I think part of the objection is the idea that Liliana is required to play Nic Fit, something that Kevin has proven to be untrue. Why should you play a card if it does not actually work with your plan? Nic Fit in particular is a relatively flexible deck and can conform to the plan you try to mold for it. Liliana promotes a specific play style. If you don't take advantage of what she is trying to do, what is the point of playing her? In general, Liliana is a parasitic card: she totally transforms the game state but she does it without winning directly. She takes resources from you but does not necessarily provide you with an outlet to win. To me, this indicates that she requires more thought to effectively use that just tight play.

[Megadeus]

Do you guys think that a crop rotation sideboard plan would be any good? Like a maze of Ith, a wasteland, a bojuka bog, stuff like that? You will still lack combo hate sadly I guess...

[Chikenbok]

Correlation always implies some sort of causation. That's the point of being a scientist. Just because it is not the obvious answer doesn't mean there is not a conclusion you can draw. Even if you cannot draw a direct relationship between the parameters, it does not mean it is not there. Correlation is the motivation to show that a causation is present.

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

The opposite belief, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship. The fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause. It is a common fallacy in which it is assumed that, because two things or events occur together, one must be the cause of the other. By contrast, the fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc, requires that one event occur after the other, and so may be considered a related fallacy.

I would like to summon the powers of Logic.

Sorry, back to your decks.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

The opposite belief, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship. The fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause. It is a common fallacy in which it is assumed that, because two things or events occur together, one must be the cause of the other. By contrast, the fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc, requires that one event occur after the other, and so may be considered a related fallacy.

I would like to summon the powers of Logic.

Sorry, back to your decks.

www.xkcd.com/552

Like the screentip says, correlation may not imply causation, but it bats its eyes and furtively suggests it. Whether its just a tease or actually means something is up to the observers discretion.

Anyhow, gifts or intuition? Which works better with unburial rites?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Do you guys think that a crop rotation sideboard plan would be any good? Like a maze of Ith, a wasteland, a bojuka bog, stuff like that? You will still lack combo hate sadly I guess...

Eh non-dredge combo pretty much dies to a healthy heaping of Duress, Seize, Therapy, some kind of extirpate/Surgical Extraction, and maybe a Chalice of the Void. The only time when they don't lose with that is when they get godhands.

You also forgot the most important land for us: Karakas ;).

Anyhow, now that you mention it, I might run Crop Rotation over something for the Stronghold Tower Build. Being able to set up both lands more quickly enables me to cycle witness and therefore maintain control of the board more easily.

Gyah! So many good ideas, so very few chances to test them out! :(

[KMS]

anyhow, gifts or intuition? Which works better with unburial rites?

Intuition lets you do: *turn 2 iona for example

*card you want to cast
Unburial Rites
Gigapede
-(makes sure you have both your *card and unburial rites in the graveyard)
-(good versus Jace)

With explorer in play:
3x Therapy / often game

Acts as a tutor
(ex.)*3 deeds

Im not fammiliar with gifts enough to make packages with that.

[sherko7]

Double post, sorry. Please delete :(

[sherko7]

One of the few decks I am interested in picking up. Can anyone help me with a matchup analysis of my meta?

Sneak Show (Last tourney my brother played 4 of 'em in 6 rounds, I played 3.)
RUG
U/R Delver
Thresh
Reanimator
Dredge
Merfolk
Goblins
Affinity
Burn
MUD
Monoblack Variants (MBC, Sui Black)
Enchantress
T.E.S.

[litenkatt]

One of the few decks I am interested in picking up. Can anyone help me with a matchup analysis of my meta?

Sneak Show (Last tourney my brother played 4 of 'em in 6 rounds, I played 3.)
RUG
U/R Delver
Thresh
Reanimator
Dredge
Merfolk
Goblins
Affinity
Burn
MUD
Monoblack Variants (MBC, Sui Black)
Enchantress
T.E.S.

What version of Nic Fit do you plan playing?

[Qweerios]

Caleb called me Queerios again... lol

@All of those working on NO Fit,

I think a Bant shell sporting Oracles, Shardless, and FoW would be a good idea for a NO Prog plan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the playstyle argument,

Don't take what I am about to say here wrongly, but if your desire in playing Legacy is to win, then I believe there is such a thing as the right deck with the right cards to be played at the right time. Playstyle becomes a measure of your limitations and/or ignorance of the Legacy format when it influences your decisions about deck/card choices. Limitations can include your degree of tolerance to go against your personal preferences for the sake of winning (AKA, how important is "having fun", or how you define it).

In my previous post, I stated that playstyle comes into play when you choose what deck to play, but shouldn't interfeer with what cards you choose to play. I said that because I have invested enough time and effort into the deck archetype to understand that anything could work, but not everything would work.

The fact that I stated it that way shows that despite my knowledge of the Legacy metagame, which is not bad at all, isn't nearly as good as my knowledge of the Nic Fit archetype. Wether or not it be my desire to have fun that overwhelms my desire to win, I originaly chose and recognized Nic Fit as a meta predator against RUG and Maverick. The initial drive that caused me to pick up the deck was my desire to win against a certain meta, not because I enjoyed watching old black men die in a "thought-extraction" ritual.

As far as my personal playstyle goes, I hate non-interactive decks with a passion, I traditionaly don't play blue decks at all either, and I enjoy playing decks I brewed or that are completely alien to my opponent. This being said, I can play High Tide, Storm, Maverick, and many other decks that I thoroughly dread playing, better than a lot of people. This is probably because I try to play the decks I want to beat before I actualy try to beat them. In turn, it also makes me a good player overall and it adds greatly to my ability to play Nic Fit.

[Greenpoe]

I've been playing Olivia Voldaren as a 2-of in the Scapewish build of NicFit and she's been pretty amazing. Ooze is great because he can grow. Likewise, she can buff herself with permanent +1/+1 counters for as many times you can pay 1R. If they have no creatures left, you can target your own creatures to score a some +1/+1's (obviously for non-lethal damage, unless you want to ping off an Explorer). Plus, she acts as a Punishing Fire all by herself, pinging the enemy creatures off can be really helpful when facing down Mother of Runes, Delvers, etc.

Flying is nice, too, allowing her to block Delvers or fly over the enemy for lethal. Oh yeah, and in the lategame, when you have 7 mana, you can pay 4BBR to gain control of any enemy creature. And that's pretty great, since she'll let you use all your mana if you have a lot, or if you only have 4 mana, you can just Shock a creature and make her a 5/5. I suppose the 3BB ability would be useful vs monoblack decks, should you see any, thanks to Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir, or I guess Mutavault, too. Anyway, that's a lot of abilities in one card. Makes her pretty dang useful.

[sherko7]

What version of Nic Fit do you plan playing?

Planning on playing the BG version (Seems more stable). I could use some suggestions on which version to run though, but basically I'm leaning towards BG (it also seems more budget friendly :laugh:)

Planning on using the list on the first post more or less.

[Zirath]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

The opposite belief, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship. The fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause. It is a common fallacy in which it is assumed that, because two things or events occur together, one must be the cause of the other. By contrast, the fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc, requires that one event occur after the other, and so may be considered a related fallacy.

I would like to summon the powers of Logic.

Sorry, back to your decks.

You are misinterpreting what that means. The problem is making the claiming that a specific conclusion is the result of a single observation or a small number of observations. The goal is to prove something is true by disproving the cases where it would be untrue through a measurement.

[TheArchitect]

Mini-Report time... At mythic games in Elmira today I went 2-2-1 and with 24 people. Not the best finish, but I had a good time, learned alot somehow I did well enough for top 16 and 45$ of store credit.

I was playing a slightly suboptimal rector list:
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Extirpate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Serenity
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Humility
1 Memoricide

A friend of mine and my round one opponent, Steve Thompson told me he was going to lend me his moat before the event. So I would have had a MD moat and Yosei (in grave titan and GSZ place). However, when I got there he had decided he was running UW miracles and needed it :/ I ended up using dueling grounds as my silver bullet for goblins (which there was 3+ people playing). Also, thanks Timur for the advice. Dueling grounds wasnt ideal, but I dont think I could have thought of a better non-moat card for what I needed.


Round 1 - Steve - UW Miracles
Game 1 - We have an epic 35min slug fest, with both of us playing pretty tight. I dont remember everything, but I think he went through 2 jaces, 2 counterbalances, 3 terminus, 1 entreat and I burned 3 deeds. At the end I had I droped Sun titan grabing nightmare, sacing a dork to getting me back grave titan, Grave Titan, while also having thragtusk, Ewit and explore in play. He was around 15 life, and had just ran out of chumpblockers and he had no cards in hand, but a top and a jace at 11 out. I pass to him, having way more than leathal on board. He tops into a the moat he was going to lend me, the irony hurt. He fateseals me (jace at 13) and passes. I draw a forest, look at my massive land army and get mindsculpted :(

Game 2 - I have to mull to 5 and he gets an early 4/4 angel and clique. He drops jace after that, while swording my baneslayer. I have to pulse the angel, and vindicate clique. Time gets called and I just scoop to him.

0-1

Round 2 - Doug Mckay with Living End
Awesome deck and a really nice guy.
Game 1 - He cycles a Glassdust Hulk off a underground sea at the end of my turn and I think I know what he is doing. Ive just been kinda durdling with tribe elders, and top. By turn 4 I see I therapy. He has 4 lands, 6 U/B cycled creatures in his graveyard and hasnt won yet so I name deny reality on my therapy. Derp, I see 2 living Deaths, lily and jace in his hand. He casts a living end on his turn and passes. I cant find an answer, but can drop a sun titan to block and survive one more turn. He drops Jace, and bounces his own Baleful Strix which had died earlier and got reanimated. After recasting the Strix, his 3 glassdusks were pumped and unblockable, and combined with his other guys, it was leathal.

Game 2 - I get out 2 early Carpet of Flowers for crazy mana while I vindicate 3 Underground seas (using Ewit) to keep him off double black. Eventually I am able to Cranial Extraction Living Death. He gets out a clique and strix which put me to 5ish before I find a deed. But he soon after gets out Jace and Lily. I answer the Jace with pulse, and drop sigarda for lily. He Starts ticking her up but cant kill sigarda as she beats in. After taking 10 he drops a strix to hold me at bay. I deed strix, and get him to 5. On his turn he uses lilys -6 in a panic. I remind him that Ive got sigarda and he doesnt understand why thats relavent and continues making his lily piles. Eventually he stops and laughs and we go to game 3 with just 3mins left.

Game 3 - I know I cant win in 1min and 5 turns, but hes a nice guy. Im a nice guy, so I shuffle/play as fast as I can to give him a chance. But, after I get a turn 3 memorocide on living death we just both scoop and accept the draw.

0-1-1, not a good start at all, but I am having fun so I didnt really care.

Round 3 - Nick P. with UR Delver
Nicks friend of a friend and nice guy, but we knew what were playing so we knew what was going to happen. Nothing too interesting to report. G1 baneslayer and thragtusk beat the whole deck. G2 even faster baneslayer and thragtusk beat the whole deck because of carpet of flowers.

1-1-1

Round 4 - Erick Whelpley with Not TES (mavrick)
Erick and I are good friends, we lived together a year ago when we both went to ithaca college and we knew eachothers decks inside and out.

Game 1 - I keep a slow 7. And he has the absolute nuts. I wiff a therapy naming KotR after he turn 1's a hierarch. He then drops mom>cradle>thalia>heirarch. I play drop a tribe elder. Off the cradle, he GSZ for rafiq, gives thalia pro green and beats in for 8. I drop a deed, but cant crack it. Im at 10 from fetches and he turn 4s me with rafiq for 10.

Game 2 - I mull to 5 but I get an early deed and kill his mana dorks and kotr and rafiq after chump blocking with elders and explorers. He is able to karakas his thalia he had out thought, and then after drops sigarda (ouch). I have a humility in had, and no other good plays. So drop that. I make the mistake of not playing an ewit in my hand to use as a blocker (I was "saving it for when humility dies", durr). Anyways, he beats be from 18 to 6 with 2 1/1s and all I get are lands and a pulse, which I have to use on his sylvan library the turn after he plays it. Finally he finds an O-ring for humility and wins with sigarda.

1-2-1 - Kind of a disappointing loss. My deck totally pooped on me game 2 and I dont think game was 1 was winable.

Round 5 - Steve Eliot with mono blue Dreadnaught
Nice guy, cool deck but obviously a little budget. No FoW :/
Game 1 - He gets 2 Renegade Doppelganger out but turn 3, while I am just topping and ramping I think I mulled to 4 or 5 this game. I pass and drops a phyrexian dreadnaught and hits me for 24 with the doppelgangers. Was not expecting that...

Game 2-3 - Carpet of flowers ramps me a ton. He gets out eater of days, and some dreads via dopplegangers, stiffles and tupor orbs but both games, deed was just better than anything he could do.



I ended up getting top 16 for 45$ of store credit and traded in a complete burn deck for 100$ store credit to buy me 3 badlands. Dan and Mythic games are awesome like that. I was happy, my finish was meh, but I lost to friends, they were fun games, and they had draws I couldnt beat even though I feel I played pretty well myself.

- Tribe elder was very helpful. I almost want 3. I would highly recommend people start using him. In GWB or even maybe BG.
- I never really missed not having innocent blood or StpS.
- I there was only 1 time I wanted Rusulka but even then, I had a slightly slower plan that got there without her.
- I didnt really mention her in my report much, but sigarda was a champ.
- Harmonic sliver was great when I needed him. being able to sac to stuff or block after his use was always relevant.
- Some of my SB cards are just as awful I thought they were (dueling grounds, curse of exhaustion).
- I was always happy to see a diabolic intent in my hand, again highly recommend it.
- Grave titan was really powerful, but I did miss moat.

Overall, I like the rector build. But I starting assembling it right before I saw the scapewish lists. And when I saw those, it was like "YES, that is what I want to play" so I am going to get the stuff for that next, probably before I get moat.

[Arianrhod]

More thoughts later, but:


Finally he finds a GSZ, gets pridemage and blows up humility and wins with sigarda.

...What? lol

I toughed out my fever and was on fire figuratively as well as literally -- didn't drop a single game with Scapewish at my local today. Top 4 split got me Bob #2 (lolvintage), and some credit in the system. But yeah -- bed for now, thoughts later.

[TheArchitect]

More thoughts later, but:



...What? lol

I toughed out my fever and was on fire figuratively as well as literally -- didn't drop a single game with Scapewish at my local today. Top 4 split got me Bob #2 (lolvintage), and some credit in the system. But yeah -- bed for now, thoughts later.

I am pretty tired too, I edited it. I couldnt remember how he dealt with humility so I just assumed he pridemaged my enchantment not really thinking about it. It was o-ring though, he had sided in 2.

Nice job! Not dropping a single game always feels so good.

[Megadeus]

Congrats on the finish guys. Olivia seems very good vs SnT. If they have like a T4 SnT you put in Olivia, eot ping, my turn play a land and take Emily? I may just try her out in place of one of my 2 huntmasters.

[litenkatt]

I'm gonna try olivia as well

[XdeckX]

Played a small tourney today (15ppl) and split the finals with ScapeFit.
I didnt loose a single game and the deck performed excellent.

R1 vs miracle
G1 i Cant really remember much but i aggroed him out with huntmasters and thragtusk
G2 i ramp to 6 lands and stall for a while gaining life with huntmasters ans thargtusk while killing jace. He eot entreats for 5 angels but can only attack with 2 since he needs blockers. I trade some angels for some dudes and draw out his counters. Burning wish finds scapeshift ftw.

R2 BG pox
g1 i have a really hard time getting anthing to stick. He has an active liliana and loam and mishras factory where i have 9 basics. He beats me to 2 and i have to draw a wincon from the top. Like a boss i draw burning wish for a scapeshift kill of 42. He was not amused.
G2 goes to time.

R3 omniscience
A matchup i didnt really feel all that comfortable with.
G1 he goed island ponder go wher i get cabal therapy on show+tell (hit) seeing burning wish and griselbrand and lands. He gets another s+t with wish but looses that to my turn2 GSZ->veteran explorer. I get more awesome dudes and he scoops em up.
G2 he again starts with island pOnder. I again go therapy and hit s+t seeing griselbrand and omniscience. He plays a land and i flashback therapy on omni, play carpet of flowers, huntmaster. He plays land and passes. Huntmastr flips and beats. I wish for cranial and remove all his s+t. Eventualy he finds a wish for s+t into griselbrand but cant activate since hes at 2. I draw a land and pass. He swings and goes to 9. I return the favor and beat for 8 putting him at 1. He again attacks and activates to draw 7. He finds nothing and scoops.

R4 id into top 4

Top4 Rg goblins
G1 stall into 7 lands and scapeshift for 18
G2 stall into 8 lands and scapeshift for 36

Top2 miracles (r1 opponent)
We split the prizes and i get to take home 2 flooded strand and 2 avacyn boosters.

I really loved playing this build. Wood elves is awesome as is huntmaster. I even wished for reanimate -> wood elves once just to get enough lands for scapeshift.

[Artlee]

I agree Olivia can be effective, and I can see she might be straight uå great vs small creature decks like Goblins and Maverick, while becoming bigger each time. I am, however not sure I would use it against Show and Tell into Emrakul. Show and Tell decks are using Omniscience which gives extra turns with Emrakul. So unless you keep 7 mana open for the rest of the game, you are probably losing.

I would rather use Matsu-Tribe Sniper. You can find it with Green Sun's Zenith and it is also works well against Delver and Griselbrand. Has anyone tried with the Sniper? I have not but would love to hear from someone who has.

[Cire_dk]

@XdeckX

Gratz, good to hear it was fun.
Did you play 2 or 3 Huntmasters? I see lots of lists with 2 but I know Arianrhod seems to love 3.

Any recommendations for the deck in case you did not play standard list.
I am looking into playing scapeshift. Just one Taiga missing ;-(

[litenkatt]

@XdeckX

Sweet! thanks for the report.

I havent tried out the scapeshift list yet but I'm wondering, how good is eternal witness here? Feels like she doesn't have as many targets as the other nic fits lists

[XdeckX]

I played 2 huntmasters. The slot where the 3 could be was filled with scavenging ooze. I didnt really use ooze today and would have liked a 3rd huntmaster better but i feel better knowing i have some sort of gravehate in my maindeck (even the sb doesnt really have allot of gravehate)
I also cut the volrath stronghold for a 6th forest. In my testing i never found i needed the stonghold whereas you really want a green producing land in your starting hand.

The board was basically the same as the scg top8 list. I just replaced the innocent blood with a Firespout.

[Alexeezay]

Eternal Witness is very good in Scapewish. It lets you get back countered/killed win-cons like Scapeshift/Titan or Burning Wish...it's also good against Combo and Control in conjunction with Cabal Therapy/Duress/Red Blasts etc. etc.. You can bring back wastelanded Valakut to enable the win (sometimes it can happen to lose both valakuts). You can bring back Deed/Pyroclasm/Damnation or Huntmaster against Aggro...
it also enables a fast win when you got Wish/Scapeshift in hand. Just get back an Explorer (sometimes Wood Elves) and with therapy/tower you got the 7/8 lands VERY fast. btw: double Explorer trigger is WIN most of the times

[AmishLuvah]

@TheArchitect

I think Dueling Grounds makes for an interesting alternative but you would have to build around it. Grave Titan wouldn't necessarily be out but I think creatures with evasion and perhaps a different "Comes into play" or "Goes to the graveyard" ability (like Kokusho) would be the order of the day. Upside of it is that it can be put back into play with Sun Titan.

[Greenpoe]

Dueling Grounds combos with Maze of Ith as well.

[Alexeezay]

I need help with the mana base for the BUG nightmare/palinchron combo deck...

you got to splash White for Unburial Rites flashback so I don't know how to adapt the mana base correctly. I might also play 4 Meddling Mages in the SB and some other W tutorable hate card...
for draw I play 4 Brainstorm, 2 Baleful Strix. Then 3 Intuition and the other stuff

I tried this: (22 Lands)
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Tropical
1 U'Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

I might just cut the palinchron combo in the end, at least after sideboarding because it is fragile to GY hate the same as "Life from the Loam" decks.
Also, Kederekt Leviathan is not that GY-fragile & the better (more solid) win condition in the metagame, it saves the game because of the Board Reset. Oh, and you don't need Nightmare to combo off. Leviathan has more applications than Palinchron and doesn't need other cards to be effective.

[DroidX]

Would Nic fit be a good place to start legacy? I love the way the deck looks and it seems like something id be willing to play.

[Rekk]

Would Nic fit be a good place to start legacy? I love the way the deck looks and it seems like something id be willing to play.

the only problem with starting out with Nic Fit is that it doesn't have an abundance of crossover cards, you'll be pretty much locked into playing it if you build it. which is fine if you have proxied and determined that this is a deck you like to play.

[TheArchitect]

the only problem with starting out with Nic Fit is that it doesn't have an abundance of crossover cards, you'll be pretty much locked into playing it if you build it. which is fine if you have proxied and determined that this is a deck you like to play.

Its also not a very easy deck to play. If money isnt really too much of an issue, then by all means go for it.

But theres other decks that require smaller investment and the cards can be used for other decks. For example: you can make burn for like 100$, and if you want, build it into a janky UR delver and slowly start adding the money cards (FoW, dual lands, etc) and then you can build that in RUG if your ready for a big investment.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Would Nic fit be a good place to start legacy? I love the way the deck looks and it seems like something id be willing to play.

As others have said, it's not good if you're looking to build multiple viable archetypes. The closest thing to Nic Fit is Rock, and after that it's Eva Green.

Still, if you say yes to all the following questions, then Nic Fit is the deck for you:

1. Do you like bomby spells and creatures?

2. Do you like ripping your opponent's hand and board to shreds?

3. Do you love doing the above again and again and again?

Ramp. Disruption/Removal. Recursion.

[DroidX]

As others have said, it's not good if you're looking to build multiple viable archetypes. The closest thing to Nic Fit is Rock, and after that it's Eva Green.

Still, if you say yes to all the following questions, then Nic Fit is the deck for you:

1. Do you like bomby spells and creatures?

2. Do you like ripping your opponent's hand and board to shreds?

3. Do you love doing the above again and again and again?

Ramp. Disruption/Removal. Recursion.

Im more interested in having a deck that i can just add to as time goes on VS having multiple decks. As for the learning curve or overall difficulty the others have mentioned, I NEVER BACKDOWN FROM A CHALLENGE!!!!....Ok but no seriously the deck seems like fun so ill learn as i go. Now to answer your questions...

1.yes
2.YES
3.sure

Now for a question of my own. What makes this deck as hard to play as everyone says it is? Does it just not compete with the top dogs? Does it lack a big threat?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I can tell from experience with a ALA-ZEN T2 deck called Riddlebox (homebrew on the Wizards forum) that the difficulty for this deck stems from it being a non-blue control deck. Your only answer to combo is disruption, and your only answer to aggro is removal. You can't just pay a life and exile a card to stop their most prominent play before it even resolves, whether that is a Goyf or a Dread Return. You have to be proactively defensive, anticipate what their key plays will be, and use removal and disruption wisely.

[XdeckX]

Another hard thing is knowing the meta and the decks played so you know what cards to hit with Cabal Therapy. Blind Therapy is HARD!

[from Cairo]

Now for a question of my own. What makes this deck as hard to play as everyone says it is? Does it just not compete with the top dogs? Does it lack a big threat?

Idk that the deck is 'hard' to play, but I think each turn/play is hard to optimize given the deck is tap-out control with so many lines/abilities to shift gears. One needs to consider a lot of known/assumed information to play the deck to it's highest potential. Namely Sensei's Diving Top and Cabal Therapy are two of the most skill testing cards in the format.

It competes with the 'fair' top decks, the deck can grind wins against Maverick, UW Blade/Miracle, and RUG. The deck is soft to Storm combo and can lose to fast Reanimator or Show and Tell, though running Innocent Blood and/or Liliana pads the latter match up nicely. Dredge can god-draw you, but with Pulses, Deeds, and SB Extirpate Nic Fit can take on average Dredge draws.

It's big threat is Veteran Explorer. I've taken to running 4 Green Sun's Zenith in all my color combinations; with 2 Innocent Blood and 2 Phyrexian Tower - providing 8 Explorers and 8 sac outlets, with the larger package devoted to ensuring the engine fires I find the core plan of Deed into Titans seems to be firing more consistently.

[Megadeus]

As they said, it is a tapout control deck essentially. Basically you need to be good at using your resources as you need them. We don't have brainstorm to just refill our hand so every move we make is key. If they have 2 cards in their hand but 1 card that is bad for you, you must determine which is better, gaining the card advantage by therapy 2 of their cards, or stopping their one best threat. If they have two that are bad for you you should determine Which one is tougher to deal with for your current hand. You need to be sure to make sure every top use the cards are put in the right order and manage your shuffle effects. If you play walkers you need to know when to Plus and when to minus. A of this just goes to being a good technical player but some is also knowing your deck inside and out and how every interaction works.

[Claymore]

I picked this deck for Legacy due to its lower buy-in cost of only needing 3-4 duals to function, it was Rock, and the fact that it has a good fight against almost every deck in Legacy other than Emrakul.dec.

Its not that hard to play this deck, more so learning the optimal play trees your hand is capable of and how to work Cabal Therapy properly. There are a few intricacies with late game plays, but those come with practice.

It might be "hard to play" because a lot of noobs pick up the deck and don't know how to work it, then flounder in their tournaments.

[HoneyT]

As from Cairo said, it isn't "hard to play" per se. Anybody can pick up the deck and win some games on the back of Deed + Titan or whatever.

It's a non blue control deck that uses some of the most skill intensive cards in the format. Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy, along with a Green Sun's Zenith toolbox make for an incredible amount of versatility and options at every point in the game. The deck wins by grinding out the opponent with card quality. You need to be able to optimize your plays given all of those tools. That's the tricky part that comes with practice and learning the metagame. Learning the format and figuring out what's important in any given matchup is just as important as technical play.

[Star|Scream]

Problem for us?


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/384324_10100919209957813_198042511_n.jpg

[Claymore]

If it shuts off Explorer and other dying effects then yes. Otherwise, it still won't come out turn 1 (unless you're playing an asshole with Deadguy) so we can therapy for it and it doesn't come out as fast as Leyline. We don't rely on the graveyard as much besides Therapy, so we can fight through it just fine.

Judge friend says that it does shut off Explorer...so we might need to load up on 1cc discard out of the sideboard when this card starts getting a lot of play. Although GSZ -> Harmonic Sliver is still boss

[Cire_dk]

This could also be usefull against other graveyard decks. Especially with a rector build where you can time the card a bit better.

[vennie]

This could also be usefull against other graveyard decks. Especially with a rector build where you can time the card a bit better.

If u want to play it (which i would not do) you have to keep in mind that any future rector's/witness action is shut off.

[Viridia]

If people will pick up this card we need to be prepared for it, it basically shuts off Explorer, Rector, Witness, Sun Titan's effect, Cabal Therapy flashback, Recurring Nightmare and probably more.

[Claymore]

If u want to play it (which i would not do) you have to keep in mind that any future rector's/witness action is shut off.

Agreed, I think we'd be better off fetching Leyline of the Void or Scavenging Ooze. This card is a pretty strong hose against us...it doesn't cripple us, but often something that needs to be answered.

[catmint]

Do you really worry about it? I guess you want to play some number of Abrupt Decay in your 75. Along with pulse and deed you should be able to remove it. You explorer first most of the time anyway and if not possible than remove RIP first. Might loose some GY in the process but also the opponent spends a card and 2 mana for something that does not hit your face or enable a sick combo. Also the top decks playing white (Maverick, UW) use the graveyard to some extend.

[Arianrhod]

Okay -- report & thoughts:

So, as I've mentioned a few times, I've been getting over some kind of strange illness that I acquired last Wednesday after leaving my window open overnight. I love cold fall night air, but unfortunately it never loves me back, and this ends up happening every year because I never learn my lesson. I assumed that it was a cold, but it's now traveled to basically every part of my system in order, so I have no idea what it was. I have like one or two little symptoms left and am otherwise healthy now, so I don't really care either.

But yeah. I woke up Saturday morning and felt like shit, after feeling pretty well Friday. Awkward. I just kind of sat around and hated life until it was time to go, and then I forced myself to pack my bag and hopped in my car. I'd decided that whichever version I didn't play at Vestal (reminder: I played Rector), I would play at my local -- thus, Scapewish time.

We only had enough people for 4 rounds + cut to top 4, sadly, because it seems like literally everyone in the three playgroups that compose my local area ended up having other stuff that they had to do (anniversaries, birthdays, homework, helping friends move, gf aggro, etc). Also, my local store has always had a noticeably less than blue meta, to the point where oftentimes there's like one set of Forces in the entire top 8. For whatever reason, people around here have never liked blue...they like fringe decks more (we have two enchantress players, an imperial painter, DnT, zombardment, bant control, etc etc etc. it's weird). Well, for some reason, people felt like playing FoW this month, as literally half the room was either on U/W Miracles or U/W/x Blade. I'm fine with this.

Somewhere around the time the first round starts I discover that I'm feeling feverish. At this point I'm here, I'm battling, and there's nothing I'm going to do about it either way, so I just shrug and play through it.

R1: Gift Fit.

Because we play round 1 every freaking event that we're both at.

I end up just doing what Scapewish does in the mirror, and plow through him really easily in like 10 minutes for both games. Nothing cool to report here, sadly.

1-0/2-0.

R2: 4c Counterbalance homebrew

This guy is a brewing madman, and I've played against a lot of his concoctions. This was one of his better attempts -- it was basically a Jace/Liliana control deck that used Counterbalance to generate virtual CA while using Bob/Top for legit CA. Goyf, Snap, and Bolt kept the board clear and punched in ftw. I actually really liked his deck, though IMO it needs some refining.

Anyway, he builds his board while I ramp g1. I can read that he has Force in hand from his body language, so I bait his FoW with a Burning Wish, then resolve Scapeshift from the top of my deck thanks to my Sensei. (BOW-TO-YOUR-SENSEI). He dies a fiery breath from 36 points of angry mountains.

I bring in REBs, because derp. I could have brought in the Thoughtseizes, but I decided that it would dilute the deck too much in this matchup -- his nonblue control cards I just didn't care about.

We do a bit of a cat-and-mouse g2. I end up getting out Primeval for both Valakuts, but he has a ton of Cliques to rip my hand apart. He kills Primeval, and I end up slow-rolling Valakut over the next few turns FTW.

2-0/4-0.

R3: U/W Blade

This guy tends to top every local, just like me! I've seen him a fair amount, only lost to him once though -- he had a Stoneforge godhand into fast Sword of F/F with tons of counter backup (and Jace). It was awkward.

Anyway, we have like a 30 minute g1. I make a bunch of Huntmasters for board presence, while he has some Stoneforges and Equipment. He Swords one of my Huntmasters when I pass the turn to flip them, but the other flip happens and kills his Stoneforge. He flashes in Batterskull and puts Jitte on it. I drop Primeval from my hand now that he's tapped out, it resolves and grabs Valakut x2 with mountain count at 4. He Tops into Terminus and shunts everything to the bottom. I do some stuff and then Wish for Scapeshift, he Cliques it away as I didn't have mana to cast it the same turn. At some point I manage to get him tapped out enough that I can Deed away his Batterskull. He makes a Jace. I finally hit another Scapeshift when Jace is at 11, and he doesn't have a counter for it. He had Wasted one of my Valakuts, however, which meant that my Scapeshift was actually for exact damage. Stupid game.

G2 I boarded in REBs and Thoughtseizes. He keeps a land-heavy hand, and proceeds to draw into more land while I ramp like a mofo and Scapeshift all over his face. Highlight of the game: He counterspelled my Huntmaster while I had R open and a REB in hand. I chose not to fight over it. He then tapped out for a Jace, and I successfully REB'd it. That felt awesome. I never get tired of REBing Jace.

3-0/6-0.

R4: Combo Elves

This guy went like 25 minutes over time (on turn 0) because turns fell just as he was starting his combo turn. He'd been loaned the deck and was just kind of durdling his way through it, but was doing well with it regardless. My r2 opponent had him in a really awkward board state where the Elves player was dead on board unless he won that turn. It took him forever, but he managed it. I didn't particularly feel like putting myself through the combo elves matchup, even though he was exhausted and new to the deck. Also, I was starving and my fever was starting to catch up to me. So we ID'd. I went to Dairy Queen and got a hot dog and a vanilla ice cream cone, which was amazing until my stomach started to get upset. FML.

I'm in 2nd going into top 4, which meant that I would have played my r3 opponent again. The other matchup would have been combo elves vs Miracles. Top 4 agreed to split, however, as the prize payout was such that the only way to get more than the split was to win the event (90/50/35/35, split for 52.5). I probably could have been an ass and just taken the whole event down, but I decided that I'd rather go home and relax where I didn't have to worry about the possibility of getting more sick 45 minutes from home. If I was playing as well as I was and I -wasn't- sick, I would have definitely been "that guy" and probably walked out with 90 instead of 52, but whatever.

Few things about Scapewish --

I changed the board for this event. I cut the Arenas and the Pulverize for 3 Thoughtseizes, because a lot of people locally like to bring combo decks to this event because of the aforementioned usual lack of FoW, and I wanted to at least have a shot vs combo. Naturally nobody brought combo, so I didn't get a chance to test them out.

Bonfire continues to impress in concept, and be passable in execution...largely because I only saw one the entire day, vs Gift Fit r1, where it took out a Jace. If I'd played against combo elves, however, I would have felt very good to have them in my deck, because if I hit one, that's pretty much game...elves can't handle Bonfires -and- Deeds.

Huntmaster is still amazing. He's lifegain, board presence, beatdown or stall, reach, AND removal in one card. I don't know what more you could want, honestly. Olivia seems good in concept, but I dislike that she can't be Green Sunned, and Scapewish doesn't have the ability to run a lot of like the Diabolic Intents and stuff that other versions run to find her (and if you could, you'd just find Scapeshift and win on the spot anyway). And frankly, I think Huntmaster is just better.

Wanting the Scavenging Ooze main is fine, but I'm going to stick with 3 Hunts/3 Elves/61 as my configuration (I list those three because that's what a lot of people seem to like changing). Wood Elves still fixes your mana, chumps, and ramps, while acting as a lategame way to trigger active slow-rolled Valakuts (I've killed Jaces with Wood Elves). Huntmaster is still the literal shit. 61 cards is still correct in decks that thin themselves as much as Nic Fit does, and that also run Top, GSZ, and a million other ways of creating redundancy.

--------

So, I'm trolling Salvation this morning, and I see this guy:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135734

Look at Deathrite Shaman, lower right-hand corner. Instant staple for our deck? Everyone who had a hard-on for the Dryad Militant, here you go. This is OUR Dryad Militant. It ramps just as well as a Birds does, it shocks your opponent while pissing off Snapcaster, and it Oozes for twice the life. Obvious drawback: it has to tap to do these things. However, in my mind, this fixes one of the problems of Ooze: not having enough green mana consistently to abuse it. It still has the other problem that Ooze does (it's just going to get removed ASAP). However, it's also a 1-drop compared to Ooze's 2, which does actually matter (I'm looking at Reanimator specifically here).

I think that it will probably see play as a 1-of alongside Ooze, but not in place of it. That way you can grab this guy early while you're developing board state, use him to ramp or annoy Snapcasters, eat lands for KotR while ramping into Deed, whatever. Then lategame you can grab Ooze when you have a ton of green mana to abuse him, and use Ooze more as a post-deed threat than as a pre-deed annoyance. Ooze is the hook while this Shaman is the needle. Etc.

------------------

@deck is hard, yo -- A lot of people have summed up this already. I'll add a little more.

Pros:

-) If you're a standard player, you probably have cards for this deck already.
-) Even if you don't, it's a pretty cheap deck to build unless you're building Rector (Moat and Nether Void are expensive as fuck). As far as Legacy goes, anyway.
-) This deck will teach you the format. Literally. You can't play this deck without learning the whole format, because you have to know what your opponents are doing to know how to play around them.

Cons:

-) Difficulty level.
-) Specificity of cards acquired. Like others have said, most cards that see play in Nic Fit aside from duals/fetches -only- see play in Nic Fit. Here's looking at you, $15 Recurring Nightmare.
-) Tied in with difficulty level: you're going to lose a lot. If you don't like losing, don't play this deck.

I should probably explain that last.

Nic Fit is a deck that takes FOREVER to master to the point where you can start winning with it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: most of the people in here that do well with the deck (top 8s/4s/wins) are the people that have been playing it the longest. The deck has a pretty negative opinion in the legacy community at wide because of this, in my experience anyway. Most people that play the deck are terrible, so the blue-playing elitists in the format are like ERMAGERD THIS DECK IS BRRRRRD. If you can deal with that, then by all means, welcome to the club. It's fine for a spike to play this deck, as long as it's a -patient- spike. If you're willing to endure a period where you WILL do terribly at events, then more power to you.

As for why it's so hard, non-blue control deck is part of the puzzle. In my opinion, the other part is the fact that our lines of play are by design longer than I think any non-combo deck in the format (I include Enchantress as combo). We have more mana to work with, and more decision trees every turn as a result. Things can get pretty complicated pretty quickly in this deck, even when you -aren't- taking your opponent into consideration. Obvious Therapy comments, etc.

It's worth mentioning that Nic Fit isn't "hard" in the traditional sense that a deck like High Tide is hard. The difficulty lies in the complexity of its reactive choices compared to its proactive ones. If you can survive to late game, any monkey can ride Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed vs RUG or Maverick (or half the other decks in the format). Swinging with Baneslayer doesn't take a lot of skill. Surviving to pull off these broken end-games, however, is where the challenge is, and it's where most people playing the deck fail.

So yeah, TL'DR everyone else is right, but consider the sheer amount of planning that goes into every turn with this deck. There's a reason neophytes with this deck go to time CONSTANTLY. Your opponent is only your second-worst enemy.

@Alexeezay -- Here's the mana base I devised for the 4c Gifts version I've been experimenting with:

4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Reflecting Pool
1 Murmuring Bosk

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains

It looks terrible, I know. But it works. Of all the problems the deck has been having in testing, the mana base has not been one of them. Reflecting Pool is absolutely amazing, and I can't recommend it highly enough as a 2-of in 4c versions. Bosk was better when there was a Wood Elves in the deck, but it's still a tri-land and Pool can effectively give it "haste." It's still a little green mana light for my tastes, but if it ain't broke, I guess. Keep in mind that the deck runs 2 Coiling Oracles and 2 Strix, which could influence the mana base's stability.

@Rest in Peace -- one of these days it's going to just become impossible for graveyard decks to effectively exist. This is way more dangerous to formats in general than Grafdigger's Cage ever was.

Its most likely place of adoption is going to be in Enlightened Tutor side-boards. I'm thinking of Maverick in particular, since while it keeps their KotRs small, it'll hurt the decks they're bringing it in vs a hell of a lot more...same principle of how Rector boards in Humility.

DnT is another likely point of use, but most DnT decks are dropping the ET board going forward in favor of Militant and Familiar. Otherwise...I dunno. One of the best ET control decks, Thopter-Sword, is sure as hell not gonna want to use it. U/W control has hard-ons for Snapcaster and/or Dust Bowl + Crucible, so they probably won't want it.

It's a very dangerous card for us, but I don't think it'll have a home. As mentioned, GSZ->Harmonic Sliver is the go-to answer. Deed will also solve the problem, although it exiles the Deed that kills it. Maelstrom Pulse, discard, etc. It's not an "archetype-killer" or anything. In some ways it's less dangerous than Leyline of the Void -- it doesn't everything Leyline does, but it doesn't come out for free on t1. If we're on the play, they won't be able to stop us from our first Explorer + double Therapy.

And no, Rector never wants to play this.

@Sherko -- if you have the card pool to build it, you're going to want Rector. It's the best vs Sneak/Show, is strong vs tribal and RUG, and has at least passable/positive matchups vs everything else on that list. I'd stay far away from Scapewish in that meta. A BUG variant might work, but BUG is so fluid right now that I don't know what I'd recommend in that regard.

@Architect -- Lesson of the day: when fighting Maverick with Rector, don't board Humility in. It took me a lot of very painful losses to learn that. It seems like something that would be good vs Maverick, since you see a lot of other decks board in Humility vs them all the time. We're not other decks, though, and our matchup vs them is actually a lot better when we have access to our broken creatures. Sure, their shit is all really annoying, but a lot of our creatures just shit on them. Only bring in Humility when vs creature-based combo like Sneak/Show or Reanimator, and you'll live a much happier life vs Maverick.

You don't want 3 Tribe-Elders, no matter how much you think you do. I've tried it, and it crosses that narrow, invisible line in the sand where you end up drawing too many blanks mid-late game. 2 is perfect -- you naturally draw them enough to be happy, but you don't see them often when you don't want to.

One day, you'll be a believer in the power of the Rusalka. Just wait. :P

I suspect that if you'd played against tribal, you would have been much happier with Dueling Grounds. As you said, that's about the best non-moat Moat that you'll be able to find. Curse of Exhaustion is pretty atrocious, but it's passable if you lack access to Nether Void. Void is better in every way, though.

@XdeckX -- gj! Beating OmniTell is a good win.If you'd wanted to be an ass you probably could have played out the finals and taken the whole thing down -- Miracles is a much better matchup for Scapewish than most people give it credit for. Also, your R2 is an example of why Scapewish is awesome. You can seriously squeak out games you have absolutely no business winning, just because Scapeshift is that strong.

Okay, I think I've responded to pretty much everything. I'm going to just let the playstyle thing die again, because I think that's a topic that has entirely too much potential to warp the thread away from the actual development of the deck. I've largely said my piece, and if people want to engage me in a discussion on the topic, PMs exist. Let's not dilute this more than we have to.

Oh, one final thing: here's my rough first-draft for post-RtR BUG fit:

4x Explorer
2x Strix
3x Oracle
2x E. Wit
1x Tusk
1x Primeval

4x Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Counterspell
2x GSZ

3x Top

3x Deed
1x Future Sight
2x Fact or Fiction

2x Jace TMS
2x Vraska
1x Garruk PH

1x Volrath
1x Phy Tower
3x Bayou
2x Trop
1x Sea
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
3x Misty
3x Verdant

Again, it's very rough, but that's what I'm looking at. I do know that whatever shell I end up building BUG Fit around, it's going to be abusing Future Sight + Top, because it's just that retarded. Such a strong engine, especially for a Nic Fit deck. Facts are probably the weakest cards on the list, but I have a soft spot for it. They'll very likely not survive to the final list though, once my desire to have a solid deck capable of winning overcomes my desire to force people to make Fact piles -.-

[Viridia]

I tried Future Sight 2 or 3 weeks ago in a little 4-round tournament (going 2-2 with an awesome 4 color list that is pretty bad :P) and it's really just not needed. In BUG you have no way of tutoring it besides cantripping into it and you'll generally be happier to find a Jace or Consecrated Sphinx, because those get alot of CA, win the game and don't cost a million mana + information for what you draw.

Also i should note i went top 4 with Rector 2 weeks ago and top 4 with BUG last week playing this list:

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

14 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Eternal Witness
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Veteran Explorer


22 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated


I missed some Jaces because mine were in the mail so i could only play 1, so i decided to try Vendilion Clique, which was quite bad.
Overall the deck performed quite well, i lost to Maverick because he topdecked an Elspeth on an empty board with both of our hands empty (me Deeding his board turn before) and soon killed me with that going 1-2
And i lost to UW Blade after having to mull to 5 both times getting 0 lands in the first 2 >.>
My changes for next time are -3 Vendilion Clique -1 Phyrexian Arena +2 Jace +1 Gifts + 1 something.

Ps. Sideboard:
Sideboard (15)

1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Innocent Blood
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Telemin Performance
3 Thoughtseize

Never sided the Telemin Performance because i havent played combo, but it's good against creatureless decks aswell as S&S.

[Megadeus]

Am I the only one who's Jaw dropped when I saw the shaman? This dude is ridiculous. Like I am considering running multiples. Holy wtf why is he a thig?!

[Arianrhod]

Am I the only one who's Jaw dropped when I saw the shaman? This dude is ridiculous. Like I am considering running multiples. Holy wtf why is he a thig?!

*whose

/end routine grammarnazi :P

But yeah. I think this is WotC's answer to the people that are crying to Ooze to be reprinting in standard. This is the closest to an in-set Ooze reprint we're ever going to see. I don't know about running multiples, though. It isn't Ooze -- it can't win a game by itself. It can ramp, but its ramp is questionable because it's basically dependent on the number of fetchlands in graveyards. Or if they waste you, but that's kind of derpy. His other two abilities are nice and will add up over time, but I see him more as a bullet than as a multiple-slot contender. Hell of a bullet, though, for sure.

[Claymore]

The Shaman is slow and doesn't grow in size like the Ooze does. There's been many games where the Ooze becomes the fatty on the field, serving a dual purpose to shrink graveyards and slowly develop into a large blocker, where Shaman has no chance at combat. Also, the fact that Ooze can immediately eat things and gain you life is very relevant.

The low cost (GSZ turn 2, active turn 3) and mana accelerating while shrinking KotR is very intriguing, however. I'll be interested to see how the Shaman works out here.

[Megadeus]

Sorry... Phone auto correct ftl... Hahaha

But he just seems good against... Well everything. He ramPs and eats knights lands, he can exile a snapcasters spells, or eat a storm decks spells maybe shutting down cabal ritual threshold, he eats creatures and gains life. He is like noble hierarchy with ooze flexibility... Definitely a GSZ target if not more. I think the rock likes it more than us, but I still think he is awesome.

[Arianrhod]

The Shaman is slow and doesn't grow in size like the Ooze does. There's been many games where the Ooze becomes the fatty on the field, serving a dual purpose to shrink graveyards and slowly develop into a large blocker, where Shaman has no chance at combat. Also, the fact that Ooze can immediately eat things and gain you life is very relevant.

The low cost (GSZ turn 2, active turn 3) and mana accelerating while shrinking KotR is very intriguing, however. I'll be interested to see how the Shaman works out here.

Bear in mind that while he can't engage in meaningful combat, he can go all Grim Lavamancer-wannabe while eating your opponents' graveyards instead of your own. That seems relevant. And most decks run some number of spells, anyway, so you can take advantage of that ability. Having our own Grim vs RUG seems amusing.

@Megadeus -- he's actually hilarious vs storm, I didn't even think of that. Not only does he keep their yard small (threshold for Cabal Rit and hindering PiF), but he shocks them every time he does it (keeping their life lower for AdN).

[Mister M.]

@ Rest in Peace:

I just looked up ther Oracle wording for Veteran Explorer. It reads: "When Veteran Explorer dies, each player may search his or her library for up to two basic land cards and put them onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched his or her library this way shuffles it."

So, as I understand, "Rest in Peace" at least wouldn`t shut down the Explorer.

[Megadeus]

Dies is basically when it hits grave. With rest in peace it never gets a chance to hit grave therefore it never triggers.

[Greenpoe]

"Dies" is shorthand for "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield," but with Rest in Peace is a replacement effect "if it would be put into a GY, exile it instead." So it shuts off Explorer just like Leyline does - Explorer never touches the GY with it out.

[Viridia]

It will, as dies basically means goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, but it never hits the graveyard.

[Megadeus]

Now that we have all told him he is wrong... Haha

But the shaman is sort of a back up ramp engine as well. Most legacy decks play a number of fetches. He is a nice back up ramp for us I think. The life gain is nice as well. Of course he won't survive long enough most of the time for that ability to matte too much in those match ups. I think he is a definite one of. Just so veratile against almost every deck he can do a job.

[Mister M.]

Really? Dooh!

[Star|Scream]

I'm not sure what this shaman brings to the deck that it's lacking. It does bring fragile, temporary ramp as a one drop, but is that something that's needed?

I can't see any time where you'd rather play (or GSZ for) this than explorer. The creature does nothing if you therapy it, whereas explorer gets you two lands. It is just as vulnerable to stp as explorer but without any etb or sac effects. In short: It doesn't do anything right away in a deck full of cards that do things right away.


It can't exile the turn it etb like scavenging ooze. It can't exile multiple cards per turn, like ooze. It can't buff itself, like ooze. It can't gain 4 or 5 life in one turn like finks or thragtusk.

More importantly, what do you take out?

tl:dr card is slow and offers nothing new.

[Megadeus]

If you don't have a sac outlet he can be an Alternate ramp source. He can eat creatures to gain some life. He is awesome vs RUG I would think. Keeping them off of threshold all while ramping past their taxing counters, or gaining life against their beats. Maybe I overreacted a bit, but the fact that he is a ramp source as well as a decent hate source all while being a one drop GSZ target makes him awesome.

[Arianrhod]

I'm not sure what this shaman brings to the deck that it's lacking. It does bring fragile, temporary ramp as a one drop, but is that something that's needed?

I can't see any time where you'd rather play (or GSZ for) this than explorer. The creature does nothing if you therapy it, whereas explorer gets you two lands. It is just as vulnerable to stp as explorer but without any etb or sac effects. In short: It doesn't do anything right away in a deck full of cards that do things right away.


It can't exile the turn it etb like scavenging ooze. It can't exile multiple cards per turn, like ooze. It can't buff itself, like ooze. It can't gain 4 or 5 life in one turn like finks or thragtusk.

More importantly, what do you take out?

tl:dr card is slow and offers nothing new.

I'll be up front with you and admit that I have no plans of putting the Shaman in any of my versions at this time. That said, for those who desire to, I do think he's a viable option.

What it brings is flexibility.

It's one creature (Zenithable as a 2-drop) that does all of these things:

-) Ramps
-) Keeps KotR small
-) Pisses off Loam (if anyone plays that anymore)
-) Keeps Threshold down (RUG as well as Cabal Ritual)
-) Negates Snapcaster
-) Pings for 2
-) Gains two life
-) Pisses off Reanimator and Dredge by exiling their critters
-) Situationally, can keep Goyf small (can't exile planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments)

That's a veritable swiss army knife, right there. And yeah, not all of those are going to be important at any given time (most of them won't be, in fact). But having access to all of them whenever you run into that case where you need them is a very nice thing.

While grabbing an Explorer is going to be more relevant against something like Thresh (or most decks), Shaman is a likely 2nd Zenith vs RUG, and is the primary Zenith vs High Tide, without a doubt.

So yeah. If you have a space for him, I think he'll end up being a good option. I don't personally have the room to put him in, though -- he's not a clear upgrade over anything else in my decks.

[Star|Scream]

If you don't have a sac outlet and you are not playing against a deck with stp, then it's perfectly fine to play explorer and use him as a creature deterrent. If your explorer gets killed, yay! If you do this with the shaman and your shaman gets killed, boo!

If you don't have a sac outlet and you ARE playing against a deck with stp, then neither of these creatures are a good idea to play.

If you DO have a sac outlet, Explorer is better to play.

Later in the game, ooze is better to play.

So again, when do you play this card over explorer or ooze? And what do you cut for it?

@Arianrhod

I know it does all those things, but it only does them once a turn. You can't respond to other activations like you can with an ooze. I guess turn two exile reanimate/dredge target is really good, BUT you can't GSZ turn 1 for it, so it has to be in your opener for that. To get the best shot at it being in your opener, you need a lot more than 1 in your deck. In that case I think extirpate would be better until you can get an ooze online.

[sherko7]

@Arianrhod

Thank you for the feedback! How does the GBw version deal with Emrakul? I was thinking Humility? But won't that kinda hurt your gameplan as well? Sorry if this question has already been answered. :smile:

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

Thank you for the feedback! How does the GBw version deal with Emrakul? I was thinking Humility? But won't that kinda hurt your gameplan as well? Sorry if this question has already been answered. :smile:

Nope, that's fine.

Rector versions specifically have Humility as their trump in the Emrakul matchup. They also have access to Sigarda, which can cushion the impact a Snuck Emrkaul has, as well as Baneslayer which laughs in the face of Griselbrand. Sideboard, Rector has Extirpates and Cranial Extraction/Memoricide, which all versions have access to. Extirpate allows you to cut down on the number of ways they can win, while Cranial Extraction effects remove their creatures or enablers. Basically, think of it in terms of Hooks and Needles:

Cabal Therapy always names Show and Tell first, as it's their fastest way to kill you. Because of the nature of Sneak/Show in particular, they'll often have a combo piece in hand, whether it's Show or not. You then FB Therapy on whatever, taking their combo piece in hand (assuming you bricked on Show), then Extirpate it. Extirpate is a Needle. It annoys them, but it doesn't kill them.

Then, Cranial happens, aimed at whatever category your Extirpate hit. Ie, if you Extirpated his Emrakuls, you Cranial naming Griselbrand and then he has no dudes in his deck to win with. If you Extirpated his Show and Tells, then you name Sneak Attack. It's a Hook (as in right hook) -- it wins the game.

Humility is your Rector bullet, and tbh is probably how I've won most games vs Sneak. Yes, it does hurt you too. But it hurts them SO much more. It completely shuts Sneak/Show down -- their only out is to bounce it (at which point, you Cranial naming their bounce spell....usually Wipe Away. Try to confirm with an Extirpate on any random card, though). Even if you don't have the Humility in hand when they Show, you can Show a Rector and then go to town...even on the Emrakul punch. I've won a lot of games post-Emrakul swing, believe it or not.

That all make sense? If you have any questions, just ask =)

[sherko7]

Nope, that's fine.

Rector versions specifically have Humility as their trump in the Emrakul matchup. They also have access to Sigarda, which can cushion the impact a Snuck Emrkaul has, as well as Baneslayer which laughs in the face of Griselbrand. Sideboard, Rector has Extirpates and Cranial Extraction/Memoricide, which all versions have access to. Extirpate allows you to cut down on the number of ways they can win, while Cranial Extraction effects remove their creatures or enablers. Basically, think of it in terms of Hooks and Needles:

Cabal Therapy always names Show and Tell first, as it's their fastest way to kill you. Because of the nature of Sneak/Show in particular, they'll often have a combo piece in hand, whether it's Show or not. You then FB Therapy on whatever, taking their combo piece in hand (assuming you bricked on Show), then Extirpate it. Extirpate is a Needle. It annoys them, but it doesn't kill them.

Then, Cranial happens, aimed at whatever category your Extirpate hit. Ie, if you Extirpated his Emrakuls, you Cranial naming Griselbrand and then he has no dudes in his deck to win with. If you Extirpated his Show and Tells, then you name Sneak Attack. It's a Hook (as in right hook) -- it wins the game.

Humility is your Rector bullet, and tbh is probably how I've won most games vs Sneak. Yes, it does hurt you too. But it hurts them SO much more. It completely shuts Sneak/Show down -- their only out is to bounce it (at which point, you Cranial naming their bounce spell....usually Wipe Away. Try to confirm with an Extirpate on any random card, though). Even if you don't have the Humility in hand when they Show, you can Show a Rector and then go to town...even on the Emrakul punch. I've won a lot of games post-Emrakul swing, believe it or not.

That all make sense? If you have any questions, just ask =)

It sure did, thank you! I have 2 lists at the moment I am testing out in MWS:

GBw version:

// Lands
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [B] Plains (2)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Swamp (1)
4 [B] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [M11] Grave Titan
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARC] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
1 [9E] Phyrexian Arena

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [SOM] Memoricide


One small problem I encounter often is the lack of threats I top deck. This is why I added Karn (I don't know if that's a good idea though, I think it would be better to just add a Titan?) Stifle also seems to be quite an obstacle sometimes (nothing Cabal Therapy can't handle). I also like GSZ'ing for Sakura Tribe Elder on those occasions you do not need to draw a bullet.

My second list is a GB version I haven't tested much. My plan is to just run a GB version first as the parts are easy to get and then wait until I complete the white splash parts:

// Lands
4 [B] Forest (2)
4 [B] Swamp (1)
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [M12] Grave Titan
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [M13] Thragtusk

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [NPH] Dismember
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
2 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [PS] Diabolic Intent

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 3 [SOM] Memoricide
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Any thoughts? Most especially for the BG version. I really love Phyrexian Arena here, and one thing I like about the BG version is the fact that I have space for it. I hate going into top deck mode, especially if I don't draw an SDT. :smile:

[DroidX]

Thanks for the feedback everyone :smile:

[Vandalize]

Is this somewhere close to Nic Fit?

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Consacrated Sphinx
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Force of Will
3 Natural Order
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Doom Blade (will become Abrupt Decay as soon as RtR is on)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Darkblast

Has Natural Order been played in Nic Fit? I mean, it's obviously better than Grave Titan and Derranted Hermit.

[Star|Scream]

You only have 8 creatures to sac to Natural order in the entire deck.

And if you somehow lose your prog or it's stuck in your hand you have 3 dead cards in your deck. Also an opposing liiana vs grave titan means you still have 2 creatures (3 if you didn't have to sac one to get grave titan) whereas not so much with prog.

[.:saturno:.]

no one has tested restoration angel in nic-fit?
i'm testing 3 copy of this and i'm very happy.
this is the list that i'm testing

1 acidic slime
2 eternal witness
1 grave titan
2 kitchen finks
1 sigarda
4 explorer
3 restoration angel

3 deed
1 recurring nightmare
2 top
3 plòwshares
4 therapy
4 zenith
1 pulse
1 vindicate
2 farseek
1 garruk, primal hunter

2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
6 fetch
4 forest
2 plains
3 swamp
1 tower
1 stronghold

[Vandalize]

You only have 8 creatures to sac to Natural order in the entire deck.

And if you somehow lose your prog or it's stuck in your hand you have 3 dead cards in your deck. Also an opposing liiana vs grave titan means you still have 2 creatures (3 if you didn't have to sac one to get grave titan) whereas not so much with prog.

True. It could be sideboard material.

I mean, Progenitus wins in 2 turns, where sometimes Grave Titan and Derranged Hermit are just useless in a stalled board.

[Arianrhod]

no one has tested restoration angel in nic-fit?
i'm testing 3 copy of this and i'm very happy.
this is the list that i'm testing

{snip}

This has the same problem that Vandal's NO list has -- it doesn't have enough stuff for the "signature card." I've considered Resto Angel before as a possible variant, but it has a very serious problem of not having enough good critters to flicker, and at some point it looks like just a worse Pod list.


True. It could be sideboard material.

I mean, Progenitus wins in 2 turns, where sometimes Grave Titan and Derranged Hermit are just useless in a stalled board.

Nic Fit doesn't believe in the principle of a stalled board. If the board is stalled, you're playing vs a fair deck. If you're playing vs a fair deck, you'll break it open at some point. It might take a little longer, but it -will- happen. If you're in that circumstance, then a GT on defense is probably going to be better than a Progen on offense, because Progen doesn't have vigilance.

Also, NO and Pattern of Rebirth are both interesting cards that seem like they should have their own variants. It never seems to work out when people try them, though.

[Star|Scream]

True. It could be sideboard material.

I mean, Progenitus wins in 2 turns, where sometimes Grave Titan and Derranged Hermit are just useless in a stalled board.

There shouldn't be a stalled board if you are playing the deck correctly. And if they have enough beaters for a 6/6 death touch and 2 2/2 tokens to have a stalled board, against just ONE progenitus they will be able to race you.

Every card in this deck should offer value. I think in order for Natural Order to do so, you would need to not only take advantage of it grabbing a creature, but also the sacrifice. Therefore I think you may want to go with persist and undying creatures like finks and geist. Maybe Natural Order would work better in an aggro/swarm version.

[HoneyT]

Missing out on local Legacy tonight due to illness =( I fucking hate being sick.

Anyway, that means I get to sit at a computer for awhile and type some thoughts.

Natural Order in Nic Fit just isn't that good. I've tried it and it's just worse than any other win-con. It takes up too many slots, leaves you with dead cards if you draw Proggy, is card disadvantage (which goes against what this deck tries to do) and we don't actually play that many green creatures so we won't always have one to sac reliably.

As far as the Shaman goes, that guy is fucking cool as hell, but I don't think he's very good here. He would be best in straight G/B and I currently am not going to be playing him. You almost never want to Zenith for him at 1 because an Explorer is almost always better when you want a 1 drop. He has to untap before we get any use out of him which makes him a liability. And let's be real, this deck has the best Scavenging Oozes in Magic with the abundace of green mana we have at our disposal. One shots a turn aren't really what we're looking for even if he does have a marginal upside. Just my initial thoughts on him.

[Yoric]

As far as the Shaman goes, that guy is fucking cool as hell, but I don't think he's very good here. He would be best in straight G/B and I currently am not going to be playing him. You almost never want to Zenith for him at 1 because an Explorer is almost always better when you want a 1 drop. He has to untap before we get any use out of him which makes him a liability. And let's be real, this deck has the best Scavenging Oozes in Magic with the abundace of green mana we have at our disposal. One shots a turn aren't really what we're looking for even if he does have a marginal upside. Just my initial thoughts on him.

Sorry you're sick. You and the Aes Sedai, eh? Something targeting Nic Fitters?

In addition to your thoughts on the Shaman, there's the fact that he's somewhat reliant on the opponent's game plan. If you don't have a turn one fetchland and neither does your opponent, then you don't get ramp after you spend a turn untapping. If your opponent is playing permanents instead of instants or sorceries, you're left to hit your own graveyard--and I am not interested in exiling my own Cabal Therapies and Pulses, thankyouverymuch. Same with creatures: I want mine in the graveyard, for the most part, to get back with Recurring Nightmare. I don't want to rely on my foe's game plan to get business out of a once-per-turn creature. Yes, he can do things (more or less) no matter what their plan is. Just not always the things you want. The Ooze is both more and less versatile, but the fact that it doesn't tap makes it amazing in comparison.

[CRich3]

This post has been getting to big to fast for me to keep up. But I think I'm going to cut white from my deck completely and go straight GB Rector and Sun Titan has been doing wonders but just hasn't been enough lately. Plus the format is to much combo for them to be effective enough for me.

About the shaman, isn't Dryad Militant a lot better vs storm than him? ANT can't cabal ritual effectively or play Ill-Gotten gains plus high tide (if anyone plays it still) will have a greater chance of getting lands when they Time Spiral. Plus the militant allies more pressure.

[AmishLuvah]

I have a quick rules question for you folks. If I kill off an academy rector to go get a faith's fetters can the faith's fetters be put on something like Emrakul since it's not being cast?

[Arianrhod]

I have a quick rules question for you folks. If I kill off an academy rector to go get a faith's fetters can the faith's fetters be put on something like Emrakul since it's not being cast?

Short answer: yes.

Also Mongoose.

[jbone2016]

I have a quick rules question for you folks. If I kill off an academy rector to go get a faith's fetters can the faith's fetters be put on something like Emrakul since it's not being cast?

Yes. Once the rector trigger resolves, they cannot respond to it as well.

[slikwilly]

I have a quick rules question for you folks. If I kill off an academy rector to go get a faith's fetters can the faith's fetters be put on something like Emrakul since it's not being cast?

I've never had this come up in a game before, and I've always accepted the notion that you can put it onto a Hexproof creature. But looking over the comprehensive rules, I see this:


303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.

Can anyone explain why the last line is not applicable here? It seems to me that "other applicable effects" would mean hexproof prevents us from putting the aura on a creature with the ability.

[Qweerios]

Wait what? Rector allows the enchanting of Hexproof creatures? I understand how you can get an aura on Emrakul (because hes not Hexproof/Shroud), but I have never heard of enchanting a Mongoose before.

My guess is that as the aura enters the battlefield, it is targeting as a permanent, therefore it isn't a spell or an ability anymore. Shroud effects only grant protection from spells and abilities.

[fireiced]

A little update on a small tourny with Scapewish very close to Arianrhod's list except that I played 2x Grave Titans :rolleyes:

M1 - Merfolk win 2-0
Nothing much to say here just that I rolled him g1 with a Huntermaster flipping like a bause! G2 bonfire of the damned got a epic 'you really play that card' comment from everyone.

M2 - Dredge lost 1-2
G1 I kept a slow hand after mulling to 6 and get rolled with a quick breakthrough
G2 @ Arianrhod - I LIVED THE DREAM! decked him out after deed stabilized the board and I wished for haunting echoes :cool:
G3 Stinking extirpates does not show up! Got therapied to oblivion, top decking w/o a top cannot be won with a couple of jellyfish and zombie beats in time

M3 - Merfolk win 2-0
M1 all over again, Angry Grave Titans and miracling bonfire like a total bause completely crushes em small fishies!

M4 - Nic Fit white win 2-0
G1 he dropped me to 4 while I topdecked scapeshift like a total bause!
G2 we trade creatures hit each other to below 10 while I miracled bonfire him for exact!

Had a great laugh and chat here :cool: finally another nic fit player in my meta
We didn't board out explorers, apparently ramping me kills him thanks to scapeshift

M5 - ANT ID
He is a old friend, happy as hell I do not play him :wink:

In top 8

M6 - U/W miracles
O GAWD I HATE THIS MATCHUP
Nothing resolves, even if they do it never mattered as I was too far from the game. Bonfire really sucked here, kept wishing they were maelstrom pulses!

I only won on the back of slow roll Valakuts and Grave Titan tokens in G2, thanks Arianrhod for that heads up!

Looking back I believe it is my lack of knowledge how to play against this matchup, ideas would be good on how to defeat this monster of a deck!

Lastly I would like to thank @Arianrhod for helping me complete my deck and giving useful pointers on how to sb etc! :smile:


Here is my list! Enjoy!


Creatures

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Wood Elves
2 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Grave Titan

Sorcery

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Scapeshift

Artifact and Enchantment

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei Divining Top

Lands

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB
3 REB
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pulverize
1 Anarchy
1 Boiling Seas
1 Damnation
1 Memoricide


Thinking of which I will drop Anarchy and Pulverize for 2x Boil to shore up that annoying matchup which is called U/W MIRACLES!

[fireiced]

Wait what? Rector allows the enchanting of Hexproof creatures? I understand how you can get an aura on Emrakul (because hes not Hexproof/Shroud), but I have never heard of enchanting a Mongoose before.

My guess is that as the aura enters the battlefield, it is targeting as a permanent, therefore it isn't a spell or an ability anymore. Shroud effects only grant protection from spells and abilities.


I think it works the same way how Zur can "enchant" himself with auras even with him enchanted with shroud like Diplomatic Immunity with his triggered ability

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What hurts us more? Iona, Proggy, or Emrakul?

[jbone2016]

Thinking of which I will drop Anarchy and Pulverize for 2x Boil to shore up that annoying matchup which is called U/W MIRACLES!

Tsunami would work better with the burning wish plan.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Tsunami would work better with the burning wish plan.

What cards do they run that give us trouble?

EDIT: versus UW Miracles that is?

[fireiced]

Tsunami would work better with the burning wish plan.

I got boiling seas for that! Could not find a tsunami at all!!!!

The idea is to crack up 3x island bombers, 1 wishable and 2 to board in and nuke at instant speed :rolleyes:

[Osmin]

I would like to thank @Arianrhod for giving useful pointers on how to sb

Share the knowledge with others! :smile:

[KMS]

What cards do they run that give us trouble?

EDIT: versus UW Miracles that is?



My problems with that deck are mostly fow, spell pierce, snapcaster fow, counterbalance.. so its hard to get anything resolved.

Other match I played I eventually died because of jace at turn gazzilion because all my goodies were on the bottom of my library and some bad luck, had no problems with entreat the angels, kederek leviathan helps allot;)

But with the new removal spell in RTR(forgot the name) it will be just another deck, for me counter balance is just nasty and I dont want to run a grip

And to awnser a previous question(I think iona because that can keep you for casting your solution) though its not as devastating if you dont have a direct awnser, then emraku is pretty bad.. it should not attack.
Anyways I dont think they are that terrible at all, they give allot of stress and you SHOULD have awnsers mainboard for those matchups

Btw Boil is pretty sick, also perhaps Boseiju, who Shelters All(GSZ/Intent/intuition/Scapeshift/bonfire/pulse((allot of use in every built)) / cavern of souls(human) though seeing other lists its a bit meh..

I need(want) to incorperate 4x meddling mage MB / so I have at least witness Meddling mage and explorer for Cavern of souls.. havent tried any yet though in my mind it seems viable..

[Cire_dk]

G2 bonfire of the damned got a epic 'you really play that card' comment from everyone.

M3 - Merfolk win 2-0
Angry Grave Titans and miracling bonfire like a total bause completely crushes em small fishies!

M4 - Nic Fit white win 2-0
G1 he dropped me to 4 while I topdecked scapeshift like a total bause!
G2 we trade creatures hit each other to below 10 while I miracled bonfire him for exact!

Had a great laugh and chat here :cool: finally another nic fit player in my meta
We didn't board out explorers, apparently ramping me kills him thanks to scapeshift

M5 - ANT ID
He is a old friend, happy as hell I do not play him :wink:

In top 8

M6 - U/W miracles
O GAWD I HATE THIS MATCHUP
Nothing resolves, even if they do it never mattered as I was too far from the game. Bonfire really sucked here, kept wishing they were maelstrom pulses!



Well done, gratz

I know you encountered a specific meta but in general would you prefer your bonfires to Pulse?

How did 2 Gravetitans work for you, would you keep them in this list?

[Megadeus]

Grave Titan is probably the best finisher for this deck. If not for it not being Green Sunnable it would definitely be the best.

[Arianrhod]

Wait what? Rector allows the enchanting of Hexproof creatures? I understand how you can get an aura on Emrakul (because hes not Hexproof/Shroud), but I have never heard of enchanting a Mongoose before.

My guess is that as the aura enters the battlefield, it is targeting as a permanent, therefore it isn't a spell or an ability anymore. Shroud effects only grant protection from spells and abilities.


I think it works the same way how Zur can "enchant" himself with auras even with him enchanted with shroud like Diplomatic Immunity with his triggered ability

^

The enchantment comes into play already attached to something. It doesn't target, therefore shroud has no effect on it.

Why is everyone cutting Primeval Titan from Scapewish, exactly? I could see going 1/1 split with Grave, but Primeval's way too good to cut. I've won a lot of games just on his back alone -- either because he sticks around and literally wins on his own, or just because he fetches up both Valakuts when he resolves and then you proceed to derp all over their face.

[KMS]

^
Why is everyone cutting Primeval Titan from Scapewish, exactly? I could see going 1/1 split with Grave, but Primeval's way too good to cut. I've won a lot of games just on his back alone -- either because he sticks around and literally wins on his own, or just because he fetches up both Valakuts when he resolves and then you proceed to derp all over their face.

Why would you run gravetitan in scapewish at all? Isn't the gameplan to have valakut in play and then bash with mountains? I also cannot see why you would run a non-GSZ target which on itself is fragile to pernicious deed due to tokens over a wincon GSZ target that also helps filter for topdecks as quite a few already stated that it can come to bothplayers in topdeck mode..

What does the Grave titan do which makes it so highly liked at all?
Scapewishers respond !! :wink:

I would rather play scapewish, and if its not enough use loaming shaman to recycle your lands to do it over and over again

Sylvan Savekeeper can put your lands in the graveyard if you need to as well, nice for primefall titan and protects your creatures
Loaming Shaman is good for graveyard hate and works nice with primefall and scapewish
Primefall titan is good for scapewish and gives a clock
Primefall titan is bad versus submerge, wooptiedoo


synergy for the win.. at least thats my take on the deck..

[fireiced]

Well done, gratz

I know you encountered a specific meta but in general would you prefer your bonfires to Pulse?

How did 2 Gravetitans work for you, would you keep them in this list?

My meta is INFESTED, I repeat INFESTED with merfolk and their islands all over the bloody place! besides gobos, zoo and maverick all are gunned down by the bonfire!

Grave boy is really a meta call, the 2 zombies do A LOT of work against u/w miracles by chipping at their life low enough for me to slow roll valakuts against them. People might say primeval does the trick easily but it seems after getting jace bounced, my primeval gets countered NONSTOP as they already have prepared Terminus on top with counterbalance or just plain top decked a counterspell or force.




Why is everyone cutting Primeval Titan from Scapewish, exactly? I could see going 1/1 split with Grave, but Primeval's way too good to cut. I've won a lot of games just on his back alone -- either because he sticks around and literally wins on his own, or just because he fetches up both Valakuts when he resolves and then you proceed to derp all over their face.

O Arianrhod! As I said I have very weird interactions with my decks, apparently I always draw valakuts against every testing game and game in the small tourny against u/w miracles. Besides it was a suggestion by my mate running u/w miracles so I figured I try it out!


Why would you run gravetitan in scapewish at all? Isn't the gameplan to have valakut in play and then bash with mountains? I also cannot see why you would run a non-GSZ target which on itself is fragile to pernicious deed due to tokens over a wincon GSZ target that also helps filter for topdecks as quite a few already stated that it can come to bothplayers in topdeck mode..

What does the Grave titan do which makes it so highly liked at all?
Scapewishers respond !! :wink:

I would rather play scapewish, and if its not enough use loaming shaman to recycle your lands to do it over and over again

No I myself do not like grave titan over primeval as primeval makes the game end so much faster just by digging mountains in to play after the initial 2 valakuts. By the way @KMS I really love your idea on boseiju to make sure my spells get forced through. Maybe 1 Crop Rotation to grab this bad boy in play? Really need to see Arianrhod's opinion as I basically modified by deck from his :cool:

Besides deed in the u/w matchup is really to fight against those annoying End of my Turn Entreats, GSZ for Huntermaster and roll this 1 man wolf army will threaten leathal against any deck I play against, Grave Titan is just to come down to seal the deal after they deal with Huntmaster.

That said, I still find Grave Titan extremely clunky, but they just proved their worth in that 1 win I had against u/w miracles with said zombie tokens chipping down an active jace, 4 life off the opponent and let me stay in game by chumping taigos and mishra factories as I tried to draw the last mountain to finish him off

[fireiced]

Share the knowledge with others! :smile:

I usually side 1-2 explorers, 1-2 wood elves and 1 flex for 3 REB and 2 extirpates

:laugh: actually that is about it, can't really side a lot with a wish board

Note: I never side out therapies, I JUST LOVE THIS CARD! [although Arianrhod suggested taking out 1-2]

[Claymore]

More fuel for GBR Nic Fits, perhaps? 8cc is scary high, but it has a Grave Titan-esque ability and crazy synergy with Broodmate Dragon to end almost any game the next turn.

Dragon Fit?

Utvara Hellkite 6RR
Creature - Dragon (M)
Flying
Whenever a dragon you control attacks, put a 6/6 red dragon creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
6/6

[Arianrhod]

I've contemplated trying to build a Jund-color Dragon Fit list a few times -- we have the mana production to actually use Sarkhan the Mad, and with Top, we could have a functional Bob that doesn't actually kill us. Load up on like Broodmate, Thundermaw, and other assorted playable dragons, and go to town. I've never actually built it other than just assembled synergies in my head, though, and I'm fairly sure that 8 mana is just too damn much. If such a list were to exist, if it wanted an 8-drop, it would surely be Hellkite Overlord, not that thing.

[Megadeus]

I do love me some hellkite overlord! *That dude is so sweet... Sadly it just isn't good. *Sarkhan Vol seems kinda sweet to... Putting him down tell Non cast emrakuls to eat one. *

I've been thinking of dropping punishing fires... It weakens my mana base to wasteland and it makes for some Grindy games. *May go back to GB once RTR comes out. *

Edit: with rector and fetters, it's the same reason in standard that solar flare was playing dead weight and pacifism. You can use Sun Titans recursion ability to bring back enchantments and hit Thrun and Geist of Saint Traft.

[Greenpoe]

Too bad Dragonspeaker Shaman is so fragile or Dragon-Nic-Fit could be okay. But that new Dragon? I'd rather run Bogardan Hellkite, but Inferno Titan is leagues better than either Hellkite.

[Ayotte]

So I've been lurking this thread for a while now and trying different variations of the deck on Cockatrice. It is a lot of fun, but I'd say my biggest issue right now is my mulligan decisions. I've had way too many games where I either didn't mulligan enough and couldn't play + sac an Explorer, and also way too many games where I remembered those other games and mulliganed too much just trying to find an Explorer. This experience will come with time, though.

I'd like to purchase the deck as my first entrance into actually owning legacy cards. For this reason, I think the best option is to start with straight GB and then once that's complete I can work on a white or blue splash. Here is the list I just drew up at work for what I might buy. Please tell me what is wrong with it before I spend money on cards I shouldn't want. I don't know what metagame I'm up against, since I haven't actually competed at my LGS's legacy tournaments yet.

Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze

Artifacts (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments (4)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Primal Hunter

Sorceries & Instants (15)
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

The sideboard will come later. Thanks!

[Qweerios]

@Ayotte,

-Leave Sakura out of a 2colored list;
-Don't buy 2 Phyrexian Towers yet, you might not need the second;
-Don't buy Pulses yet, Decay might just replace it;
-Don't play any non-forest Fetches;
-Play an even number of Forests and Swamps, or;
-Play more Forests than Swamps.

I would also suggest Primeval Titan and 2 Treetop Village instead of Grave Titan. Since a Titan is your singleton bomb, make it GSZ-friendly and dont be afraid about the stability of your manabase in GB, it is very resilient as it is. Thoughtseize is a card I would never recommend to a newcomer in Legacy because it is stupid expensive and not that much better than Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress. As for IB, it will probably be replaced by Decay/Liliana altogether, but its not expensive, so go ahead and buy 12 playsets...

[Ayotte]

@Ayotte,

-Leave Sakura out of a 2colored list;
Okay.
-Don't buy 2 Phyrexian Towers yet, you might not need the second;
Okay
-Don't buy Pulses yet, Decay might just replace it;
I was listing pulses because I thought the main purpose of them was to deal with planeswalkers, which is an important issue for this deck. I already own one pulse.
-Don't play any non-forest Fetches;
Should I have more green fetches? I only own the fetches I have listed, which is why they're the ones I listed.
-Play an even number of Forests and Swamps, or;
-Play more Forests than Swamps.
Oh, yeah, I meant to do that. Thanks.

I would also suggest Primeval Titan and 2 Treetop Village instead of Grave Titan. Since a Titan is your singleton bomb, make it GSZ-friendly and dont be afraid about the stability of your manabase in GB, it is very resilient as it is. Thoughtseize is a card I would never recommend to a newcomer in Legacy because it is stupid expensive and not that much better than Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress. As for IB, it will probably be replaced by Decay/Liliana altogether, but its not expensive, so go ahead and buy 12 playsets...

I was considering the primeval and treetop. Thanks for the advice there. I already own 4 thoughtseizes. I also really like Innocent Blood as a card, and I was assuming that I would want some cheap removal that's not pulse or deed. I also wanted to make sure to have a way to bin explorer, since not having a sacrifice effect has lost me a few games in the past couple weeks.

Thanks for the advice. What should I use instead of the elders?

[KMS]

testing this:

1 Sylvan safekeeper
1 scapeshift
1 terrafore as sweet gsz target, should grow fast with protection from safekeeper
1 primefall titan
4 veteran explorer
1 loaming shaman
1/2 phantasmal image
perhaps a random knight of the reliquary though i rather have trample then searching lands

just played picelli, and he kicked my butt. game one i had a few misplays leaving an open board at 2 hp which should not happen.. if I get excited im at my worse :wink:

game 2 extirpate on therapy and got killed by ooze/lilliana
im ok with the setup though it needs quite some refinement..
I played surgical extraction MB to test as well rather had brainstorm for sure

What actually killed me is two games graveyard dependant.. (extirpate+ooze, with liliana's +1 is not what you want to face) should go for more agro style game 2
overall im happy with the results, and i should have won game1 period :cry:
Had leviathan in play and therapy's in the gy, could have called but forgot, then out tapping myself and threapy with the wrong guy for recurring nightmare intoleviathan again.. so stupid should not have happenend

[Claymore]

Sakura isn't there to mana fix, its there to accelerate. You just saw his problem of mulling into oblivion of not having Explorers, and taking out the backup doesn't help.

Likewise, taking out Towers and Bloods when he admits having problems losing games to not having a sac outlet is also bad.

Decay doesn't strictly replace Pulse, but a 1+/1+ split might work too.

I'd say those fetches are okay. The only single problem one is Polluted Delta, but for starting out it shouldn't be all that bad. The most important part of the forest fetch is to give you better chance at throwing down Explorers, and Delta gets Bayou gets Explorer. You run the risk of Bayou getting wasted, but fuck it, that specific scenario won't be all that common here. Maybe switch it out later, but don't feel like its going ro ruin your whole deck.

Play test and buy whichever list makes you happy, but make sure you test such changes. Like taking out Grave Titan and putting in Treetops, which fuck over your mana base.

[Qweerios]

@Ayotte,

Here is my post-RtR GB Nic Fit list:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Damnation
4 Duress
2 Tsunami
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg

[EpicLevelCommoner]

And to awnser a previous question(I think iona because that can keep you for casting your solution) though its not as devastating if you dont have a direct awnser, then emraku is pretty bad.. it should not attack.
Anyways I dont think they are that terrible at all, they give allot of stress and you SHOULD have awnsers mainboard for those matchups

That's the problem I'm having: there's just so much viable, yet situational removal available for this deck. Off the top of my head, we have Edicts, Decay, Damnation, Pulse, Deed, Grip, etc. It's becoming a pita to prepare a removal suite that is consistent in both utility and frequency.

Or is this archetype just that metagame sensitive?

[Gheizen64]

No Deathrite Shaman? As a 3-of i can't see it as bad in this deck. Pretty nice synergy with liliana too. I wouldn't play more than 3 as multiple of it aren't as good when u run a rock-like deck like nice-fit.

[Arianrhod]

Sakura isn't there to mana fix, its there to accelerate. You just saw his problem of mulling into oblivion of not having Explorers, and taking out the backup doesn't help.

Likewise, taking out Towers and Bloods when he admits having problems losing games to not having a sac outlet is also bad.

Decay doesn't strictly replace Pulse, but a 1+/1+ split might work too.

I'd say those fetches are okay. The only single problem one is Polluted Delta, but for starting out it shouldn't be all that bad. The most important part of the forest fetch is to give you better chance at throwing down Explorers, and Delta gets Bayou gets Explorer. You run the risk of Bayou getting wasted, but fuck it, that specific scenario won't be all that common here. Maybe switch it out later, but don't feel like its going ro ruin your whole deck.

Play test and buy whichever list makes you happy, but make sure you test such changes. Like taking out Grave Titan and putting in Treetops, which fuck over your mana base.

I agree with some of this and disagree with some as well. Qweerios knows his GB, so I'd trust his judgment here. I know he's had a great deal of success with Primeval->2x Treetop, specifically. I like a lot of your advice for just like some random standard player who wants to get into it, but if he already owns Thoughtseizes, and wants to just straight up buy dual lands, this isn't a usual case where we need to use kit gloves and gently caress them into the format. Ayotte seems to want to dive in headfirst.

Also, keep in mind that yeah, while he's had those problems, I'm much more inclined to blame Cockatrice's failure of a random generator. Real-life pilots of the deck have had no problems similar to what he's describing, certainly not to the extent that he has. Sakura-Tribes are unnecessary in G/B, especially in a list without Nightmare. Innocent Blood is okay, the 2nd Tower isn't necessary in G/B, etc. Yeah, they smooth out having / saccing Explorers, but again, real-life pilots don't have trouble with that -- only cockatrice does.

If you own Thoughtseizes already, more power to you. You definitely do want green fetches, because you always want to be able to fetch a basic forest to go with your Explorer -- that way you don't expose yourself needlessly to wasteland.

I do agree that IMO Decay splits with Pulse. Probably a 2/2 in G/B?

But yeah, tl;dr, listen to Qweerios on this one, Ayotte.

[Qweerios]

No Deathrite Shaman? As a 3-of i can't see it as bad in this deck. Pretty nice synergy with liliana too. I wouldn't play more than 3 as multiple of it aren't as good when u run a rock-like deck like nice-fit.

I honestly don't see what issues Deathrite Shaman solves for Nic Fit.

@Claymore,

If you take away the color-fixing aspect of Sakura, you are left only with ramp. Ramping 1 tapped land off of 1G is terrible by Legacy's, and Nic Fit's standards. If you are aiming for a more high CMC/explosive type of GB Nic Fit, I would suggest adding more Towers before secondary/sub-par ramp.

[Ayotte]

Well, I can see no reason to believe Arianrhod doesn't know what he's talking about. :cool:

[Claymore]

Sounds good :P.

Thoughts on the new Wurm? 2GGWW 5/5 trample, when etb make a 5/5 trample wurm token.

Feels like the Broodmate Dragon for Rector. I wish it had a Titan attack effect too, but the cycling with Nightmare for trample wurms warms my loins.

Might be a bit hasty and ill-thought out, but might challenge Grave Titan for its spot considering you can directly GSZ for it. This hints at removing Fierce Empath, although the Sun Titan doesn't quite have a match just yet.

[Qweerios]

I haven't seen that new worm yet, but if it puts two 5/5 Trample wurms into play for 5 CMC, Grave Titan is definitely obsolete for GBw versions.

[Claymore]

Its 6cc (2GGWW)

Armada Wurm 2GGWW
Creature-Wurm

Trample

When ~ enters the battlefield, put a 5/5 Wurm token with trample onto the battlefield.

5/5

[Arianrhod]

Sounds good :P.

Thoughts on the new Wurm? 2GGWW 5/5 trample, when etb make a 5/5 trample wurm token.

Feels like the Broodmate Dragon for Rector. I wish it had a Titan attack effect too, but the cycling with Nightmare for trample wurms warms my loins.

Might be a bit hasty and ill-thought out, but might challenge Grave Titan for its spot considering you can directly GSZ for it. This hints at removing Fierce Empath, although the Sun Titan doesn't quite have a match just yet.

I can agree with this. For non-Moat GBW versions (looking at Rock-styled and Pod-styled lists here), this wurm probably challenges Grave Titan. If you're on Rector and you have Moat, Yosei is still better.

[Qweerios]

Still an upgrade IMO. It still brings 10 power to the table, except that it is trample now. Being GSZ-friendly is huge. GBw will officialy have the strongest GSZ package after RtR.

[slikwilly]

Still an upgrade IMO. It still brings 10 power to the table, except that it is trample now. Being GSZ-friendly is huge. GBw will officialy have the strongest GSZ package after RtR.

It's sweet, but not if you run moat. Yosei flies. Sun titan can be jumped by elspeth and provides recursion. Elspeth can't jump both worm and token in same turn which makes it not so great.

That said I plan on picking one up.

[Viridia]

I'm actually thinking of trying a GBW Pod version, but what i'm having troubles with making a list.
It seems really hard to play all the good spells if you want to play loads of good Pod creatures :(

[Arianrhod]

Where are you at currently, Viridia? That's what we're here for after all :p

[HoneyT]

I love how fast this thread moves!

Some thoughts (mostly for Ayotte):

I've been running G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've messed around with other versions and I think if you're not playing Scapewish, you should play G/B. It's the most consistent and with tight play is very solid vs just about anything.

I'm a huge fan of Primeval into double Treetop in a control heavy meta. I use it when my expected metagame is like that. However, in a meta with more aggro decks a la Maverick, Goblins, Fish, RUG, etc. I've been favoring something a little different. While still favorable, I don't like giving them percentage points against potential slower and more vulnerable to Wasteland draws. This is what I've been using to great results in a meta like that:

Nic Fit (61):

Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (13):

2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder

Spells (26):

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Doom Blade
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
3 Extirpate
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thoughtseize

Neither is right or wrong, just my personal preference based on the expected metagame. My meta has more MUD, Affinity, etc. so I like Doom Blade over Go For the Throat. If you expect more Griselbrands, I would swap that. Obviously Return to Ravnica will bring some changes. Abrupt Decay will definitely make an appearance in some number and I will be trying out Vraska too. Golgari Charm will also probably make a sideboard appearance.

Any questions feel free to ask!

[Ayotte]

This is why I've been lurking this thread for long enough to be this interested. You guys rock.

I like the Hymns, but I haven't seen them in many lists. Are they normal?

[Nihilis]

Most decks discussed here are three colours, and they usually don't want to invest too deeply into black mana sources early on, making hymn a bad choice for extra discard (which those version usually don't run MB, if at all).

In straight G/B hymn's are viable and very strong, but I find direct discard like duress or thoughtseize to work better with therapy and grant better discard quality overal. The one extra mana cost also makes a big difference vs combo, where you want to get their keypiece ASAP. Really depends on personal preference I think.

[Megadeus]

Hymns are only really in GB versions. The ability to therapy then flashback with an explorer into a hymn on turn 2 is absolutely insane.

[HoneyT]

As has been said, they're only really viable in straight G/B. The nut draw Megadeus described is part of the pull. They're also better than pinpoint discard against fair decks most of the time. They're fine against combo and in addition to Therapies and Thoughtseizes out of the board are quite insane.

That being said, you don't want a ton of them. They're pretty dead in the late game. With two, I see them often enough to make them useful, but not draw too many. They're awesome at nabbing the last two cards out of a players hand in the mid game and obviously insane in a Therapy/Explorer opener.

In a meta with more combo, I like extra pinpoint more. In a more fair environment, I've been pleased with a pair of Hymns.

[Vacrix]

I honestly don't see what issues Deathrite Shaman solves for Nic Fit.It shores up the Reanimator and Dredge matchups quite nicely. As a 1 drop, Shaman shuts down Dredge if they only have one Dredger. Against Reanimator, you can remove their target in response. Also, it stops stuff like Snapcaster, Lingersouls, shrinks Goyf/KoTR/Goose/Ooze, stops Loam, and also helps in the combo matchup in the case that they want to IGG/PIF loop. Its a 1 drop to compliment Veteran Explorer in stopping Lackey, which is extremely relevant with Goblins presence in DTB. Its also pretty good as instant speed Reach so it has an offense utility as well. Not that Nic Fit has problems removing Solitary Confinement, but the fact that it makes the opponent 'lose life' without actually targeting the Enchantress player means you can keep pressure on even through Elephant Grass and other Prison effects.

As an excellent counter to Dredge and Reanimator, and marginal utility against IGG/PIF, I'd say Shaman helps to shore up some of Nic Fits bad matchups while providing mana utility. I'm guessing people will experiment with it as a 2'of or so. Any more than that and its more than likely going to compromise deck space.

[Artlee]

What decks do you side in Memoricide against? I guess it's decks with few threat's like storm and other combo decks, but to me it seems quite too slow against these decks.

[fireiced]

Deathrite Shaman really makes me wanna go back to straight up G/B nic fit! :tongue:

[guelahpapyrus]

I thought I'd throw my GBw list up, see what you all thought. I've been modestly successful with it.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent BLood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

[Nelis]

I do agree that IMO Decay splits with Pulse. Probably a 2/2 in G/B?


Hmm, I play 3 Pulse and 3 creature removal (2 Dismember , 1 Go For The Throath ) in my BG list and I'm going to replace those 3 creature removal spells with Decay. It surprises me to see lists with only 2 or less pulses. Do your metagames not have Jace?

My decklist is based on Calebs list.

Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (14):
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Viridian Shaman

Spells (24):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 go For The Throat
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I'm still working on my sideboard but now it is:
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Krosan Grip
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Damnation
1x Gaddock Teeg

These sideboard tactics are what I've figured out so far. Thoughts are welcome.

RUG
In: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Damnation, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Eternal witness, 1 Deranged Hermit

Dredge
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, 1 Viridian Shaman

Maverick
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1???

Merfolk
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 2 Veteran Explorer, 1???

Soulblade
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip
Out: 1 Wall of Blossoms, 1 Veteran Explorer

Goblins
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Liliana???, 1 Veteran Explorer

Belcher
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void
Out: 1 Go For the Throat, 2 Dismember, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Deranged Hermit or 1 Thragtusk???

Burn
In: 2 Faerie Macabre, 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Liliana,
Out: 2 Dismember, 3 Pernicious Deed

(Combo) Elves
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Liliana, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach

- Combo ANT
In 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Nihil Spell Bomb
Out: 1 Go for the Throat, 2 Dismember, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 GSZ

- Random aggro decks (Mono red!)
In 2x Kitchen Finks
Out:

I think With Abrupt Decay will the change the sideboard but Ive an important tournament to play this sunday.

[Viridia]

This is the Pod list i came up with so far, but it probably relies too much on the Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Persist guy win:


Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

20 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
1 Bloodflow Connoisseur
2 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reveillark
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Yosei, the Morning Star


18 Other spells
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate

[Tao]

Hmm, I play 3 Pulse and 3 creature removal (2 Dismember , 1 Go For The Throath ) in my BG list and I'm going to replace those 3 creature removal spells with Decay. It surprises me to see lists with only 2 or less pulses. Do your metagames not have Jace?

My decklist is based on Calebs list.

Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (14):
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Viridian Shaman

Spells (24):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 go For The Throat
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I'm still working on my sideboard but now it is:
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Krosan Grip
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Damnation
1x Gaddock Teeg

These sideboard tactics are what I've figured out so far. Thoughts are welcome.

RUG
In: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Damnation, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Eternal witness, 1 Deranged Hermit

Dredge
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, 1 Viridian Shaman

Maverick
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1???

Merfolk
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 2 Veteran Explorer, 1???

Soulblade
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip
Out: 1 Wall of Blossoms, 1 Veteran Explorer

Goblins
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Liliana???, 1 Veteran Explorer

Belcher
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void
Out: 1 Go For the Throat, 2 Dismember, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Deranged Hermit or 1 Thragtusk???

Burn
In: 2 Faerie Macabre, 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Liliana,
Out: 2 Dismember, 3 Pernicious Deed

(Combo) Elves
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Liliana, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach

- Combo ANT
In 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Nihil Spell Bomb
Out: 1 Go for the Throat, 2 Dismember, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 GSZ

- Random aggro decks (Mono red!)
In 2x Kitchen Finks
Out:

I think With Abrupt Decay will the change the sideboard but Ive an important tournament to play this sunday.

Think about adding Carpet of Flowers to the SB. Carpet is insane against RUG and important against Stoneblade.

RUG: Side out the Cabal Therapies. They suck against RUG because the fluctuation in their hand is so fast that you have no idea what they hold the next turn. You also don't need them for Explorer because they have to attack you on the ground because you usually have enough removal for their Delvers. Bring in Finks.

Dredge: Bring in Curse of Death's Hold!!! It is the best card against them Side out the second Liliana, she is utterly useless against Dredge. Also add both Finks. Side out 2 Therapies or Thrun and a Therapy.

Merfolk: Side out 3 Therapies and keep the Explorers in the deck. Like against RUG they empty their hand quickly and attack on the ground anyway. Kill their evasion (Reejerey/leveled Coralhelm).

Soulblade: Here is where Carpet of Flowers would be very useful. You could side out 3 Explorers and bring in Carpet of Flowers as your board plan. Keeping Explorers is awkward because you need some more Mana but don't know if Explorers will help him even more.

Goblins: I'd say -2 Maelstrom Pulse, - 2 Liliana + 2 Finks, + 1 Damnation, +1 Curse of Death's Hold (!!!)

Belcher: Also Gaddock Teeg! Side out Grave Titan and Thragtusk.

Burn: + 3 Chalice of the Void!!! You don't need Faerie Macabre. Also side out Grave Titan.

Elves: Add all Chalices! I'd say side out Thrun, Grave Titan, Thragtusk, 2 Pulses and keep 2 Hymns.

ANT: Deed is strictly better than Maelstrom Pulse. They only have Empty the Warrens tokens as threats and Deed can be played preemptively (avoiding Discard) and also gets Moxen/LEDs.

[Megadeus]

It would be difficult for me to side out therapies... Though I see what you are saying about it vs RUG. And yes Carpet of Flowers is absolutely awesome against anything Blue.

Is chalice reallythAt good in our deck?

Siding Liliana out vs anything that floods the board seems fine. I usually keep her in vs Maverick though. That match up becomes super Grindy, and a liliana on an empty board is usually GG for them.

[Arianrhod]

Hoooooly shit, @Tao posted =D What version are you playing these days?

@Nelis -- Uh, more colors. In straight G/B you can get away with more Pulses (and they're going to be better for you). Like, in Rector, I'd rather Faith's Fetters a Jace, because than that makes the next one they draw look stupid, too. My Rector runs a Pulse, a Vindicate, and a Fetters as "catch-all" answers, if you will. That adds up to 3x Pulse, kind of. Just the extra color gives me more options aside from Pulse. Also, Sigarda is really good at killing Jaces. So are mountains.

Also, for the record, I agree with basically everything Tao said as far as board advice goes.

How's your tribal matchup been in testing? Seems like you might want the 4th Deed.

Is Viridian Shaman a meta call? Or are you just not worried about enchantments at all? I do agree that I've never liked Wickerbough, but I'm not sure you need a GSZ "naturalize guy" maindeck. Depends on meta.

Also, I echo what everyone else is saying about Primeval Titan -> 2x Treetop in the G/B version. That's seriously amazing. I only played G/B a little when locals need to test vs it (since most "wild" nic fit players run G/B). When I need to gauntlet it, I always run Qweerios' latest, and Primeval -> 2x Treetop has won a lot of games.

@Viridia -- Yeah, I feel like you're way too all-in on the Lark combos. RSD seems patently unnecessary here -- I'd cut that first.

Actually, as I think about it, I think I'd just use Lark for value and take out all of the combos. I mean, you could put in like Mikaeus and go all-in with infinite persist, but people are already going to be slamming graveyard ASAP vs you, so I'm not sure I'd want it worse. The Rector package is fine, although I question the lack of Sigarda in your creature suite.

No Tops? -- this is my main problem with Pod lists. We're actually a lot more spell-heavy than creature-heavy, which naturally makes Pod worse. Honestly, Viridia, you might want to try some unexplored territory. Instead of Pod, you might want to try Fauna Shaman. Here's the sample list that I threw together for a Fauna build. Bear in mind that this is really, really rough:


4x Veteran Explorer
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Loyal Retainers
2x Eternal Witness
2x Academy Rector
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Primeval Titan
1x Griselbrand

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

1x Moat
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Pernicious Deed

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1x Swords to Plowshares

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Savannah
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


The general idea was to get as close to the old Rec Sur lists as possible, with Fauna substituting for Sur (obviously a pale imitation, but it's what we have to work with). There's a lot of updates I'd make to this (ie switching Yosei in for Kokusho), but it's a starting point if you're interested.

@Papyrus -- is Loam really necessary? I'd also definitely look into the new Armada Wurm -- your list is exactly the style of deck that's going to want it the most. 10 Zenith-able trampling power spread across two bodies is exactly where the Rock builds want to be.

I'd also look into dropping to 3 Forests and bumping up to 2 Swamps -- there will be times where you'll want to Explorer a Swamp and it'll be in your hand. With 7 green fetches, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a basic Forest.

@HoneyT -- Nic Fit community best community IMO.

Also, I'd recommend running a Diabolic Intent. Aside from giving you more mid/late game flexibility, it also can add to your number of broken openers by Explorer -> Intent -> Hymn. That way vs the unfair decks where you really need the discard, you have a "3rd" Hymn, but vs other things you have a way to grab Top, wincon, Deed, whatever. I'd probably cut the Innocent Blood for it, personally, but I've never been impressed with Innocent Blood as anything more than a wish target, so that might just be my bias.

A word on Hymn in general for everyone:

Hymn to Tourach can and does win games -- sometimes it just takes exactly the right cards, and they can never recover. At the risk of sparking the personal preference debate again, I feel that with Hymn it's a choice between raw power (Hymn) and surgical precision (targeted). I know that the Rock thread was having the same debate a while ago, and they ended up siding with targeted discard. As for Nic Fit....I dunno. There's certainly a strong argument for targeted discard, because it allows us to shape our opponents' plays around both our answers and the mana that we give them. However, the raw strength of Hymn is definitely something that should not be dismissed out of hand -- especially if you nut draw into Explorer/Therapy/fb/Hymn, and they literally don't have a hand on t2. I think that something like HoneyT is doing is probably the best compromise -- run a lot of targeted and a few Hymns as power cards. I'd just add a Diabolic Intent or two to make the Hymns more common when they're needed.

I'm also on a ferocious Diabolic Intent kick at the moment. Seriously, it's Demonic Tutor with an upside for our deck. Fuckin awesome.

Anyway. That's all I got for now.

A reminder that the banlist update happens tonight. AKA we hope and pray that Show and Tell gets banned even though it won't, and we hope and pray that Mind Twist gets unbanned even though it won't. I'll be hedging my bets though and staying up for the update just in case. My project to assimilate Mind Twists is behind schedule (I've been getting too much pimp), so if it gets unbanned tonight I'm gonna need to be ready to jump on that =( Speaking of pimp, I just won 4x foil German Cabal Therapies on ebay last night for Scapewish. Because German is an angry language, and mountains.

[Viridia]

@Arianrhod I dunno about fauna shaman, all it does is you discard a creature and search another one. While strong it dies to creature removal and to Deed, because you'll often deed for 2 or 3. Also you don't benefit from ETB and dies triggers all the time, but you do with Pod.

[Viridia]

Also QQ @ US sellers that don't ship to Europe, i never get to see those auctions :(

[Arianrhod]

Also QQ @ US sellers that don't ship to Europe, i never get to see those auctions :(

The funny thing is that it was a German seller, actually. It was like a 3-day auction though, so maybe you just missed it. I got stupid lucky on it....won the set for just over 100. Pretty sure German foil Therapies retail for around 50-60ish each.

As for Fauna vs Pod -- while Fauna does die to Deed a lot, I feel like it gives better value overall. Trading extra Explorers into threats late is nice, whereas Pod restricts you a lot. I dunno. It's just a thought. I don't really have a convincing argument for you one way or the other, honestly.

[Viridia]

I think i'll try my luck with Pod first, if it really doesn't work out, i can always try Fauna Shaman anyway :)

[Star|Scream]

@Qweerios I had some questions regarding my BUG Gifts list.

My list is similar to your last gifts list.

I think without a primeval titan, genesis is a superior choice over stronghold, due to getting 2 cards per turn. Also it can beat if necessary, and doesn't die to wasteland (which is run much more than STP) Do you agree?

I am still having trouble with goblins. Ringleader is too much--even after a deed wipe. They can just keep rebuilding. They can use the extra lands off explorer just as well as we can. In theory two plagues will beat them but I never have enough time to find and cast them. I don't find Liliana to be that helpful, nor jace.

Speaking of planeswalkers, I own 2 liliana, 1 jace, and 2 garrukPH. Right now I'm only using 1 lili and 1 jace. Do you think I should add another garruk for gifts lulz? Do you think the new pw or abrupt decay have a place in BUG?

Thanks!

[Megadeus]

When I played GB I really did love Hymn to Tourach. It is a very good card. But I am leaning on Thouseize in the slot. While Hymn alone will win some games thanks to the random effect, Thoughtseize allows us to take out problems that our current hand cannot deal with, and leave the problems that we can deal with. Again I have had good results with Hymn and I don't expect it to be bad, it is just my preference of play style.

I may drop Punishing Fire and go back to GB, because despite my meta being infested with Tribal and Maverick, I think that GB is much better to fight SnT variants. I also believe that I am a much better player than when I first played GB and now I can have a chance against Jace decks.

Of course all of this is just building up to me hopefully, eventually, getting duals to play scapewish.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Another Whalinchron Nic Fit list from me, this time focusing on heavy recursive elements both to control the board state and to combo for the win.

Utility Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Wtiness

Bomby Creatures (and Spell)
2 Thragtusk
1 Great Whale
1 Recurring Nightmare

Search Engine
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Removal Suite
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption Suite
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy[/u]

Utility Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Nonbasic Mana Lands
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest

Basic Mana Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island

[Claymore]

sdematt over in The Rock just had a hell of a post about their very similar matchup with Miracles - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=674030&viewfull=1#post674030

Here are some relevant excerpts about Hymn:


We discussed Hymn over Inquisition, and we came up with the fact that in the main, you want Inquisition all day everyday. Why? Firstly, if you're on the play, you immediately Thoughtseize to take Top. Every game I won consisted of me nuking Top in some fashion, whereas the games I lost usually went into Topdeck mode with me having nothing, and him having nothing and a Top. Top/Library manipulation really controls how this matchup goes.


You want Inquisition to take Top, Counterbalance, or another relevant card like EE/Shackles. Hymn, while in his words, "a very decent card against us," doesn't do enough to necessarily warrant its inclusion in the maindeck in a meta with a ton of RUG in it as well. You want the targeted discard to take the things you want, not strip a land + Land Tax or something like that.


I argued we required a slot that was both good against Combo as well as Miracles. Thalia was one option, but so was straight up Hymn to Tourach. He said the card was decent against him, and probably better than other answers. Hymn doesn't slow you down in this matchup (Thalia would), and works to rip apart the hand. Hymn should complement additional targeted discard, not replace it. It's also good in the Combo matchup. Perhaps not quite as good as Thalia, but still pretty good.

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios I had some questions regarding my BUG Gifts list.

My list is similar to your last gifts list.

I think without a primeval titan, genesis is a superior choice over stronghold, due to getting 2 cards per turn. Also it can beat if necessary, and doesn't die to wasteland (which is run much more than STP) Do you agree?

To be perfectly honest, I didn't test Genesis all that much. I liked how the engine was overall superior when it worked (draws a card each turn), but I disliked how it was cold to a single piece of GY hate. The Volrath Tower + Witness combination doesn't lose to a single Wasteland if well planned. You can always bring back witness and grab the missing piece again. Overall, I would choose Genesis > Volrath Tower with Gifts because it takes up less deck space and offers a more powerful and specialized engine overall. As long as it isn't your only lategame win-con. So yes, I agree with you.

I am still having trouble with goblins. Ringleader is too much--even after a deed wipe. They can just keep rebuilding. They can use the extra lands off explorer just as well as we can. In theory two plagues will beat them but I never have enough time to find and cast them. I don't find Liliana to be that helpful, nor jace.

Jace is what usualy gets sided out against Goblins in favor of a couple of Plagues and a Selkie. I find that the goblins matchup is one that I usualy win by landing a Thragtusk, attacking, and fetching a Selkie and targeting my tapped Thragtusk with. This usualy grants too many "big" bodies and buys back 10 life. Combined with a single Plague, it gets the job done. I will also admit that I haven't been testing goblins as extensively as I should have, my meta simplest doesn't have enough of them.

Speaking of planeswalkers, I own 2 liliana, 1 jace, and 2 garrukPH. Right now I'm only using 1 lili and 1 jace. Do you think I should add another garruk for gifts lulz? Do you think the new pw or abrupt decay have a place in BUG?

I think that 2 Garruk is a going a bit overboard. He is awesome in his own right but will often be sided out, seeing multiples really suck, and he can be painful to cast. Also, 1 Garruk is often enough to win a match. As for Decay, I will state it again, I think it will be pivotal for BUG Fit. Decay acts as a faster and uncounterable Pulse in many cases, it smooths out the early game against certain decks and grants instant speed answers to many problematic cards. I firmly believe that the "multiples" clause on Pulse is superfluous, and that being able to hit Planeswalkers is not the primary purpose of Pulse. I would definitely play a split in a creature-light or Jace-less Nic Fit list.

Thanks!

Tied for first place at a local tournament. There were about 30ish quality participants this week. There were FOUR "Lands" players as well. Upon knowing of this meta shift, I made a small alteration to my deck where I exchanged 2 SB Nihil Spellbombs for 1 Jace and 1 Lily in my MD. It went as follows:

2-0 vs. Combo Elves

In: 2 Plagues, 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Lily
Out: 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thrun, 1 Ooze, 2 Spellbombs, 2 Jace

2-0 vs. Lands

In: 2 Extirpate, 1 Lily, 1 jace
Out: 1 Deed, 1 Volrath, 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thragtusk

2-1 vs. Reanimator (2 missplays cost me the first games, I could have went 2-0 easely)

In: 2 Extirpate, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Negate, 1 Jace, 1 Selkie
Out: 4 Deeds, 2 Pulse, 1 Prime Titan, 1 Thragtusk, 1 Thrun, 1 Garruk, 2 Liliana

2-0 vs. DnT

In: 2 Plagues, 1 Selkie, 1 Lily
Out: 2 Spellbombs, 1 Ooze, 1 Jace

With the following list:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Nihil Spellbomb*
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Liliana of the Veil*
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor*


More news to come soon!

[Star|Scream]

I think I'll try maybe a 2/1 split for decay/pulse, just to make sure that I can at least get one of them in hand off a gifts.

I know you moved away from gifts but I just don't have the planeswalkers to mirror your list, although I did just pick up a 2nd jace. Also I like the gifts for now, and feel the most comfortable playing BUG with grave titan as a finisher.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@qweerios: I really like that bug superfriends list. It looks like a very powerful dedicated control deck. However, it seems like you won't trigger the explorers all that often--you have 8 explorers and only 5 real sac outlets. With these numbers you'll only have about a 45% chance to trigger the explorer by turn 4. On top of that, most of your removal tend to be fairly high up the curve. Do you find the deck struggling in the early/mid game?

Edit: that percent is actually closer to 60% if you assume a looking at 3 extra cards with a brainstorm/top.

[Alexeezay]

I think pw's like liliana or jace are not necessary because you get above 4 mana very easy with Veteran Explorer and could just play a bomb instead, like the Rector Version runs all the 5/6 drops. I prefer big guys or high loyalty PWs like Garruk 3.0/Vraska over Lily/Jace. Just my preference :)
While Liliana is better against the Show and Tell decks which everyone is playing now...and Jace is Jace...so I see what you're doing.
I think it's a metagame/personal preference

has anyone testing results with BUG/combo? (palinchron/nightmare/leviathan) I'm very interested. I will get some testing with some friends in tomorrow. I'm gonna try out both palin/leviathan & only leviathan & also the more stable("anti-cute") BUG version

[CRich3]

Anyone notice the new 5/5 trample wurm that makes a 5/5 trample wurm when it comes into play? I think I have to stick with GWB and sub out grave titan for him.

As for Fauna Shaman vs Birthing Pod I have actually tried this because Fauna shaman can be gotten with Green Sun's it seems pretty good. But the Dies/ETB abilities from Birthing Pod can get pretty ridiculous. They both have their ups and downs big difference is Birthing Pod doesn't die to STP, your own deed or your own Innocent Blood. Plus if you hit an early birthing pod it makes it almost impossible for your opponent to catch up with all the card advantage. Biggest downside is you have to have consecutive CMC creatures to pod into. Here is the sequence of pods I try to go into.

Turn 3 Kitching Finks or Pod
Turn 4 Pod or Kitch Finks (which ever you didn't play last turn). Pod into Phyrexian Metamorph to Copy Finks.
Turn 5 Pod cloned Finks persisting into a copy of birthing pod and getting Academy Rector. Then using your cloned pod to pod Rector into Thragtusk with Rector getting which ever enchantment is needed at the time.

If I start this off with an early explorer I can begin this on turn 2. Once you pod into Sun Titan with Deed decks that require creatures stand a very little chance of winning. I am taking my deck to SCG Cincinati and Indy next month so hopefully I will have some great tournament reports and decklist later. Tuned 10/15 SB cards for Omniscience and Miracles, probably a bad idea but only time will tell.

[Megadeus]

I think the wurm will be fine. But I still think Grave is better. The fact that he makes dudes when he attacks giving him a sort of vigilance. Also the deathtouch is surprisingly very relevant. Many times I have held a knight at bay and attacking because of his deathtouch they have to trade knight with him. Same with RUG. It takes forever for a RUG deck to fight though all of the chump guys he provides.

I think that Grave is still the best finisher in a non moat version (also scapeshift)

[Viridia]

I've tested a few games with this Pod list tonight:

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

19 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
1 False Prophet
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reveillark
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Yosei, the Morning Star


19 Other spells
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate


It's not bad, but you really just need alot of creatures :( I hadn't thought of the Phyrexian Metamorph yet, i'll probably squeeze that in, that sequence is quite insane.

[HoneyT]

I would also try and squeeze in a Restoration Angel in the Pod build as well Viridia.

[Qweerios]

I think I'll try maybe a 2/1 split for decay/pulse, just to make sure that I can at least get one of them in hand off a gifts.

I know you moved away from gifts but I just don't have the planeswalkers to mirror your list, although I did just pick up a 2nd jace. Also I like the gifts for now, and feel the most comfortable playing BUG with grave titan as a finisher.

I don't think you need 7 PWs to go Gifts-less. When I tried the Nihil Spellbombs maindeck, 2 Lily, 2 Jace, 1 Garruk was plenty. I might try Deathrite Shaman in those slots when RtR comes out, but I am not convinced that they are even better than Spellbombs.

@somethingdotdotdot,

I don't know where you got those statistics from, but between 2 Tops and 4 BS, I rarely find myself struggling for land drops. I don't think my BUG Fit version struggles any more in the early game than any other Nic Fit deck. The Explorer-Therapy interaction is a great accelerant and provides color stability, but it doesn't mean that in its absence, Nic Fit cannot perform. This archetype is, to its very core, vulnerable to lightning-fast strategies and disruption. Fair decks don't kill in 3-4 turns, and that is all we need to blow up a Deed and slowly bury our opponent with our unparalleled card quality and pinpoint recovery.

[thra1l]

Hi all. This is my first post (I've been lurking for a while lol). I've been playing Nic Fit for about six months. I started out with a straight GB list, but just recently switched to a BUG list (recently, as in last week) that I took to a small local tournament last night, so I thought I would just give a mini-report. I don't remember too many details, but I'll try to give a pretty good idea of what went down, and my thoughts of the deck, etc. Here's the decklist (it's based on Caleb Durward's recent list from his article):

// Lands
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

// Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
3 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Perish
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Round 1 vs. RUG Delver (2-0):

I felt pretty good about this matchup going in, with the Carpet of Flowers and Perish in the sideboard. He was on the play, cast a ponder and passed. I think I played a Cabal Therapy (naming Brainstorm maybe?), missing, and seeing that he had two 'Goyfs in hand. The next turn he played the 'Goyf, and hit me once while on my turn I played Liliana and used her edict. My next turn I landed a Jace, and on his turn they both got bolted... I don't remember much more about this match, but I know I Cabal Therapied him again getting TWO 'Goyfs and then rode Scavenging Ooze to victory.
Game two was pretty similar, I started with 2 Pernicious Deeds and a Perish in hand, wiped his board and landed another Scavenging Ooze. I bumped it a little, but on his turn he killed it with Grim Lavamancer + Bolt. On my turn I topdecked another Ooze and just won from there. Oh yeah, I played a Grave Titan the turn after to seal the deal. :D

(I can't remember what I sided in... I know it was at least the 2 Carpet of Flowers and the Perish)

Round 2 vs. Combo Elves (0-2)

Game 1 he was on the play, and went off turn 3 after I had just landed a Pernicious Deed. On his combo turn, however, he had around 6-7 creatures and tried to play a Green Sun's for Regal Force, which I Forced, and then he bounced Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote and topdecked ANOTHER Green Sun's and killed me from there. Game two went much the same way. I feel like this isn't a great matchup... I'd lost a couple times to this guy before when I was running GB.

I sided in the Perish, Memoricide, 2 Surgicals and 2-3 Thoughtseizes.
Sided out 2 Lilianas, and the Veteran Explorers (Not sure if that was the right call, but I've game Elves two lands before and they have absolutely no trouble going off the turn after that)

Round 3 vs. LED Dredge (2-1)

Game one was probably the most boring and dragged-out game of Magic I think I've ever played, lol. I went first and Cabal Therapied him naming LED and hit. He had nothing else in his hand, and drew nothing but lands the entire match. He hard casted a Narcomoeba, Golgari Thug, two Stinkweed Imps, AND an Ichorid (which I Forced... it was that bad). He eventually just beat me down while my deck drew nothing but Force of Wills and lands (and I had a top out)! Games 2 and 3 I grinded him out on the back of Scavenging Ooze.

Sided in 2 Surgicals, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Memoricide
Sided out 2 Lilianas, a Jace, and ?


Thoughts:
I thought the deck performed decently; however, I really miss Green Sun's Zenith. Keeping the blue card count up to support the Force of Wills is kind of awkward, as well... They really didn't do much the entire game, except protect a Pernicious Deed against RUG, and stop the Green Sun's against Elves (which didn't matter anyway). I am loving Jace and Brainstorm in this deck, so I will probably stick with BUG, but I think I am going to go for a build much like Qweerios' last list. Force of Will's sideboard are a possibility, but they will probably just stay Negates, as I doubt I will have the blue count to support them. Also, another thing I noticed was that I just lacked the whole late-game bomb thing. I felt like most games I won I just flooded the board with a bunch of 1/1 value creatures, and eventually found my Grave Titan or just won with Ooze, and it was just kinda boring sometimes... :rolleyes:
Speaking of that, I think the Consecrated Sphinx is just going to become another Grave Titan. I can recall very few matches (with BUG and GB) that I lost after I stuck a Grave Daddy. Shardless agent was terrible last night too, pretty much always cascading into something stupid, like a Top when I have one out, or a Cabal Therapy during the late game. Clique was actually pretty decent, but probably still not up to par with Eternal Witness or something.

So yea, that's my thoughts on the list I ran. I will be switching to the Green Sun shell and see how that does. This post turned out quite a bit longer than I expected it to be, so I'm sorry about that... Maybe it's just that fact that I'm trying to procrastinate studying for my Accounting exam tomorrow, lol. Anyway, I hope to be fairly active in this thread in the future, and I hope to be able to bring something to the table as well. I look forward to working with you all. :)

Also, @Qweerios, could you explain to me why you don't use Dryad Arbor in your last BUG list? It seems to me that it just makes so many more hands more keepable. Thanks!

Cheers,
--
Jacob

P.S. If somebody could fill me in on how to tag cards, it would be awesome, and I'll go back and edit my post lol. Thanks again!

[somethingdotdotdot]

I'm getting them from a multivariate hypergeometric distribution, with the restriction that you get 1-4 gsz/explorer (out of 8) and 1-3 sac outlets (put of 5) in 13 cards. It's technically 61.8314%, but it's still inflated as it doesn't factor out draws with too little lands.

As for the clock, I'm aware that fair decks don't win by turn 3-4, but a turn 1 delver/turn 2 flip tends to do a fair bit of damage by then. Without the ramp, it'll like be turn 4-5 (when you have 4-5 lands) that i think you'll safely land the deed. Maybe it's just my bias, but it seems that all of your answers tend to be at 3 mana to cast. (I suppose this will change once abrupt decay comes in and this becomes moot).

Couple other questions:
Why wasteland instead of dust bowl? As a one of to be searched for with Titan, you'll probably have the mana to use it and it can kill multiple troublesome lands instead of just one (I realize that you could witness the wasteland back, but that just seems convoluted).

Also, have you considered a couple of engineered explosives? At 0 it could kill multiple flipped delvers and dodges daze and pierce since you dont pay the mana until it resolves. At 1 it can both trigger explorers and kill opposing 1 drops. With Titan, you could also add in a singleton academy ruins to create a semi lock without having to use witness to recur deed.

[Qweerios]

I don't play dryad because it is terrible to draw, dies to Deed, and most of all, it is rarely better than waiting the extra turn for Explorer. I only play it in GB Nic Fit, and not always.

Dust Bowl is a good find indeed, I had not considered that card. I will promptly replace my singleton Wasteland with a Dust Bowl, thanks!

I think EE overlaps with Deed for its purpose. I know it seems a bit off to have most of my answers at 3 CMC, but it isn't very problematic. I don't see why I would want additional RUG hate considering I literally never lose to RUG. I play against RUG aproximately 3 times a week and it simply doesn't work out for RUG against Nic Fit, ever... EE, however, does make a fine engine with Academy Ruins and Primeval Titan. Definitely food for thoughts.

As for the statistics, I don't think much of them. 60% is fine with me. RtR will smooth out the early game a bit with Deathrite and Decay. I intend to try two of each and see how it goes from there.

[Justin]

I like the singleton Dryad Arbor for just about any deck that runs Green Sun's Zenith. Yes, it has negative synergy with Deed, but sometimes you need to accelerate your mana on turn one and don't want to wait a turn to fetch Explorer. Dryad plays well with Cabal Therapy as well. You can GSZ for Dryad on turn one and cast and flashback Therapy on turn two. If you don't run Dryad and GSZ for Explorer instead, you are not hitting them with Therapy until turn three. Against combo decks, this can make a huge difference. Obviously, this deck usually works best if Explorer is in your starting seven, but that won't always happen. It's worth giving Dryad Arbor a spot in your starting 60.

As an example, I won a game against SnT by using GSZ, Dryad, and Therapy as decribed above to rip away the opponent's Show and Tells on my turn two. I would have lost had I been forced to wait until turn three.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Actually, funny thing goldfishing with this deck: actually pulled off a quadruple Cabal Therapy by turn 2.

Hand was:

2 lands
1 Vet Explorer
1 GSZ
2 Therapy
Something else.

Turn 1: Cabal Therapy
Turn 2: Veteran -> Cabal Therapy -> GSZ for Veteran -> Cabal Therapy x 2

So . . . I'm really against the idea that Dryad Arbor is worth even 1 spot in this deck, because as soon as turn 1 is over, it's a dead card more or less.

Also, seeing this "godhand" makes me realize how trivial other disruption is when Cabal Therapy does so much. Gonna remove Thoughtseize for something else: probably some more bombs.

[KMS]

For all BUG players intuition to 3x therapy often winst the game

Veteran explorer - hymn can put the opponent in topdeck mode. Hymn is a great one off maindeck.
And I also dont see a spot for the militant

The dryad arbor is good for me, even late game since im not running that many creatures, a recurring nightmare that resolves with dryad arbor is to sweet to cut

[eq.firemind]

Have anyone tried Caravan Vigil?
I use it as 1-of in my Diabolic Intent-focused BG list as additional ramp and it helps alot.
Even without Morbid it works okay since I often need to ramp from 5 to 6 lands after initial Explorer stuff, but fail to naturally draw and drop 4th land.

I also tested Starved Rusalka in different builds and it was totally worth its slot if you don't play Brainstorm.

[Justin]

For those of you that hate maindecking Dryad Arbor, perhaps you should consider putting one into the sideboard to bring in for a Forest for combo matchups. If you have a starting hand with GSZ (or Dryad Arbor) and Therapy, but no Explorer, having Dryad Arbor in your deck could be the difference between winning and losing.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

For those of you that hate maindecking Dryad Arbor, perhaps you should consider putting one into the sideboard to bring in for a Forest for combo matchups. If you have a starting hand with GSZ (or Dryad Arbor) and Therapy, but no Explorer, having Dryad Arbor in your deck could be the difference between winning and losing.

Actually, now that you mention the forest part, Dryad Arbor seems a lot better now. Not because of some Therapy interactions, but the fact that it's a forest gives even BG-straight builds 9 copies of it (1 Arbor itself, 4 Catacombs, and 4 GSZs). Not really impressive considering Arbor alone, but coupled with Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, or any kind of sac outlet, it can be potent mid-late game. Early game, it's a waste unless you're playing against combo.

[Arianrhod]

If you feel compelled to put Dryad Arbor in your deck, for the love of god put it in as a Spell, not as a Land. Even doing that, you're going to have games where you'll just straight lose because it essentially comes into play tapped. Yeah, it has nice synergies and all, Arbor has a ton of problems, too. This isn't Maverick where it allows GSZ to function as Hierarch 5-8. IMO the problems do not outweigh the benefits.

[Star|Scream]

thra1l

Try a sphinx of uthuun in place of consecrated.

[HoneyT]

Like Qweerios said, only play Dryad Arbor if G/B if at all. I only do sometimes in straight G/B. But for the sake of discussion for those interested in running it, lets look at the benefits and costs.

Pros:

-Can be used as acceleration with GSZ
-Is a fetchable/Zenithable Therapy body
-Suprise blocker
-Makes you Edict proof


Cons:

-Sucks to draw in your opening hand
-Anti-synergistic with Deed

Most arguments against it are because of Deed. Most of the time though, the times I've needed to Deed away an Arbor are completely irrelevent because either I'm screwing them over way more than myself or because I have plenty of mana availible anyway.

Overall, I feel most versions don't want it. However, for example, my latest G/B list ran one and uses it to great effect (it can be found on the previous page). It will screw you over in three color builds though. Just don't. If you do draw it in your opening hand you're gonna want to eat a gun. Some versions of G/B can make good use of it though. Feel free to try it out.

[Megadeus]

I've like dryad arbor in GB. I do always seem to have it in my opening hand though... Just being able to fetch up a blocker for a planeswalker is very nice sometimes. And therapy use. Edict I've only ever really liked it when I need to save my Thrun from my own innocent blood.

[exw]

Finally got a chance to play more legacy using the Scapeshift version of Nic Fit. I won (4-0) a small local Legacy thing last Tuesday (9/18/12). I had never played Legacy at this shop before, so I can't vouch for its competitiveness, but several people were playing top tier decks and seemed up on current events in Legacy. I made three changes to the deck that had been discussed earlier.

First, I cut a single Maelstrom Pulse from the main deck in favor of a Bonfire of the Damned. This was a change we discussed earlier and I have more experience with it now. The second change was removing the terrible Wickerbough Elder from the main deck. I went back to the third Huntmaster of the Fells and this was excellent all night. The third change was adding a Firespout to the sideboard in place of a Carpet of Flowers. I didn't need to wish for it all night. But I didn't face any tribal match-ups.

I have a quick little report if anyone is interested:

Round One: Russell (RUG delver)
Game one: I get too greedy with a Deed and die from 9 to triple lightning bolt.
Game Two: Counters my Scapeshift, unaware that the spell resolving would be his death. I Eternal Witness it back and get him with it.
Game Three: He forces a Deed and a Bonfire in the same turn leaving him unprotected from a Scapeshift the next turn.
1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round Two: Nick (GUWB Planeswalkers + Ramp?)
Not 100% sure on the archetype of this deck. Didn't seem too mainstream.
Game One: I keep a hand with multiple cabal therapies and Veteran Explorers but no black source. We durdle around for 4 or 5 turns until I find a black source where I then go completely off with Cabal Therapy. My first blind therapy nabs a pair of Force of Wills. He dies to Scapeshift.
I did use bonfire in this game to kill a Karn, Liberated on three and a pair of beast tokens from a Garruk Primal Hunter, so +1 a situation where Bonfire was better than a Maelstrom Pulse.
Game Two: I blind Therapy him turn two taking an Elspeth, Knight Errant one turn before he was due to slam it. He doesn't do anything relevant and a single Huntsmaster wins the match.
2-0 (4-1 in games)

Round Three: Ben (Junk)
Game One: I get huge value from a deed early and facing no pressure I get a easy Scapeshift win.
Game Two: His early Dark Confident reveals a white Leyline so I change my game plan to beat down. I am able to wish for a Pulse to take out the Leyline, but he casts another on his next turn. He then plays out a Sewer Nemesis (?) and bashes me down to 3. With things looking grim, I use Scapeshift and Valakut to wipe the creatures from his board and get in there with regular creature damage.
3-0 (6-1 in games)

Matt W. (Rug Delver)
Game One: I resolve a Deed through triple spell pierce and he concedes with no board and no gas.
Game Two: A perfect hand of Deed / Explorer / Top / Carpet of Flowers / Land / Land easily runs him over.

4-0 (8-1 in games)

I was never able to miracle Bonfire on the night, but it certainly seemed powerful every time I played it. I was very pleased to have it over Maelstrom Pulse on the night.

Also, Valakut is no longer banned in modern and Scapeshift shot up in price ~8 dollars. I'd like to think it is because people are beginning to notice this deck in Legacy though!

[Alexeezay]

I'm gonna run Scapewish nicfit on Sunday at a big local tournament, its 4 rounds modern(rg tron), 4 rounds legacy (scapewish).Top8 plays M13 Sealed.
I'll let you know how I went.Top8 gets Displays (RTR or M13), 1st gets 8 displays.

[litenkatt]

Ive been trying out the Scapewish deck for quite some time now and honestly - I can't say I like it too much. Biggest problem is having no fetch lands, I often find myself having the wrong lands and way to short of shuffle effects for sensei's divining top to be as effective as it can be.

Mostly I've been playing against reanimator, before board it's a really hard setup (80-20 to his favor). Im playing ooze MD but that's not enough. After sideboard however I board in duress, extirpate and REB which makes it a bit easier although its still hard.

I do think scapewish is overall a fine deck but I do believe the other versions are stronger.

This sunday I'm going with the classic GB deck. I'll make a report if I do well

[Cire_dk]

Ive been trying out the Scapewish deck for quite some time now and honestly - I can't say I like it too much. Biggest problem is having no fetch lands, I often find myself having the wrong lands and way to short of shuffle effects for sensei's divining top to be as effective as it can be.

Mostly I've been playing against reanimator, before board it's a really hard setup (80-20 to his favor). Im playing ooze MD but that's not enough. After sideboard however I board in duress, extirpate and REB which makes it a bit easier although its still hard.

I do think scapewish is overall a fine deck but I do believe the other versions are stronger.

This sunday I'm going with the classic GB deck. I'll make a report if I do well

I agree that the effectiveness of the version you play does depend on your meta. I have tested Scapewish a few times and I feel that it can be great when the board is stalled (which I find happens quite often.) Scapewish gives you a great finisher. REB is a nice added extra as well.
In general I think my rector list has more anwers in a random meta.

I am looking forward to your report and please also report if you do not well :laugh: I learn more from my (many :eek:) mistakes than from straight forward wins.

Good luck

[Justin]

If you feel compelled to put Dryad Arbor in your deck, for the love of god put it in as a Spell, not as a Land. Even doing that, you're going to have games where you'll just straight lose because it essentially comes into play tapped. Yeah, it has nice synergies and all, Arbor has a ton of problems, too. This isn't Maverick where it allows GSZ to function as Hierarch 5-8. IMO the problems do not outweigh the benefits.

I don't agree with any of this. Dryad Arbor replaces a land. It is not Maze of Ith. It still taps for mana. It does function as a Hierarch with you fetch it with GSZ for zero, because it accelerates your deck. The times in which Arbor costs you a game because it is "sick" are rare, and not as common as the times it wins you a game because of mana acceleration. The benefits clearly outweigh the costs.

[Arianrhod]

Ive been trying out the Scapewish deck for quite some time now and honestly - I can't say I like it too much. Biggest problem is having no fetch lands, I often find myself having the wrong lands and way to short of shuffle effects for sensei's divining top to be as effective as it can be.

Mostly I've been playing against reanimator, before board it's a really hard setup (80-20 to his favor). Im playing ooze MD but that's not enough. After sideboard however I board in duress, extirpate and REB which makes it a bit easier although its still hard.

I do think scapewish is overall a fine deck but I do believe the other versions are stronger.

This sunday I'm going with the classic GB deck. I'll make a report if I do well


I agree that the effectiveness of the version you play does depend on your meta. I have tested Scapewish a few times and I feel that it can be great when the board is stalled (which I find happens quite often.) Scapewish gives you a great finisher. REB is a nice added extra as well.
In general I think my rector list has more anwers in a random meta.

I am looking forward to your report and please also report if you do not well :laugh: I learn more from my (many :eek:) mistakes than from straight forward wins.

Good luck

This is pretty much spot-on. IMO, Rector is best if you don't know what meta you're going to be up against, because it generally has the most answers to the most potential problems. Scapewish is where you want to be if there's a low combo presence, and the goal of BUG is that you want to play BUG in a high combo meta (my goal for BUG, I should refine that statement). They're all for different situations and different metas. That's one of the reasons that I resist the idea of splitting the thread up -- while the different versions can be quite altered from one another as far as card choices go, they aren't actually different decks in my mind. Look at Survival (the most commonly alluded to example). Bant Survival, Ooze Survival, and Vengevine Survival were all three completely different -decks-, not just different versions of the same deck.

IMO skill with Nic Fit as an archetype includes choosing which build of the deck you want to play for an expected meta....kind of a deck selection within a deck selection. I mean, you can rip out half the wishboard to make Scapewish's reanimator matchup passable, but at that point why not just play a different version that has a stronger reanimator matchup? Obviously card availability is a question, but you can work towards a version that's actually good in your meta. I'm not convinced that some of the various versions' problem matchups are fixable without inordinate amounts of work, to the point where it starts to struggle with other things (see Scapewish vs reanimator)


I don't agree with any of this. Dryad Arbor replaces a land. It is not Maze of Ith. It still taps for mana. It does function as a Hierarch with you fetch it with GSZ for zero, because it accelerates your deck. The times in which Arbor costs you a game because it is "sick" are rare, and not as common as the times it wins you a game because of mana acceleration. The benefits clearly outweigh the costs.

You're certainly allowed to disagree. I merely state my experience with the card. I think I was ever glad to have it exactly once, in a game almost a year ago where I fetched with Nightmare onboard to loop Sun Titan for the win. It's been nothing but trash for me otherwise, and I haven't missed cutting it one bit. I can appreciate your argument that it's good to have against combo decks because it is a quicker Therapy enabler, but that's a corner case, and your matchups in general will be improved by not having it, because that can be a card in your deck that actually does something. There are very few fair decks where Zenithing for Arbor to accelerate is actually better than just waiting a turn to Zenith for Explorer...especially considering that t1 Therapy -> t2 Zenith for Explorer, flashback is a common line of play.

Again, despite your signature, you're entitled to your opinion. Damn near anyone in here will tell you that I have no problem agreeing to disagree =)

[Star|Scream]

@qweerios: Can I ask what you usually use as your main finisher in BUG without grave titan? I assume thragtusk or titan beats, but how often do you ultimate with jace? I know I should use Jace's +0 a lot more but sometimes controlling their top deck while grave titan or sphinx of uthuun goes to work is just better.

[Megadeus]

I have seen that a lot of the Time BUG ends up just beating with 2/2's. It is a fairly grindy control deck so it definitely makes sense.

[HoneyT]

Carsten Kotter put an article up on StarCity today with an interesting take on Nic Fit using Jarad's Orders for Loyal Retainers/fatty. Here's the link for reference:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24904-Eternal-Europe-Impressions-From-The-City.html

Looks a little rough, but certainly viable with some fine-tuning.