[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

Carsten Kotter put an article up on StarCity today with an interesting take on Nic Fit using Jarad's Orders for Loyal Retainers/fatty. Here's the link for reference:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24904-Eternal-Europe-Impressions-From-The-City.html

Looks a little rough, but certainly viable with some fine-tuning.

This is the comment I left for him in the thread for the article here on Source:

Carsten: if you think Retainers is impressive, look into BUG for Body Double instead. The biggest problem of Retainers is that there is a pisston of hate for legendary creatures currently (Karakas) thanks to Sneak/Omni/Reanimator/HyperGen/whatever. Body Double fixes that problem, allowing you to get whatever creature you want. It's also on-curve, since you can Orders with 4 and then Body Double with 5 (I hesitate to say "on turn X" because that gets warped in Nic Fit).

That said, I'm unconvinced that Orders is actually better than Gifts Ungiven, and that's the major problem that I'm having with it in brewing. While Gifts requires a shakier manabase (4-color, because Unburial requires white), it's a tremendously more powerful card.

I dunno. There's definitely some room to explore options with Orders, but it needs some brewing. IMO, until legacy's meta changes or Emrakul (Show and Tell) gets banned, Retainers is more of a liability than it is good, which is a shame because it's a really cool card.

[Megadeus]

I was already considering Buried Alive as a nice little genesis engine, so this deck definitely was cool to me, but it does seems pretty slow, even for us. I do think that I would like to try out a Genesis engine sometime though. Has anyone ever tried it?

[Star|Scream]

You don't pick the creature body double copies until it resolves, correct? And therefore if someone extirpates creature A in response to body double, you could still pick creature B if you had more than one?

I also believe gifts is better. If set up correctly, you can almost always get the cards the way you want

Fatty
body double
Cabal Therapy
Genesis/Gigapede

[Qweerios]

@qweerios: Can I ask what you usually use as your main finisher in BUG without grave titan? I assume thragtusk or titan beats, but how often do you ultimate with jace? I know I should use Jace's +0 a lot more but sometimes controlling their top deck while grave titan or sphinx of uthuun goes to work is just better.

I usualy use Thrun. When I manage to stick 2+ PW or 1 PW + Deed on a board, Thrun is my clock of choice. I have never used Jace's ultimate with this deck, and I only fateseal when Jace is low. I am really looking into a Creeping Tar Pit for now, I think it would be a great addition. 3 Jace and 3 Lily might be a little over the top.

[AmishLuvah]

Why do I never see anyone put a singleton Knight of the Reliquary in Nic Fit with a small land toolbox? He can get anything you're after and if someone kills him or any of the lands you tutor up from him you can always get them back (Sun Titan, Eternal Witness). Seems like it could be handy in a grindy sort of game.

[Megadeus]

You really dont have room for a toolbox in this deck. You run too many basics that take up that slot. And another issue is that he dies to Deed.

[waSP]

Why do I never see anyone put a singleton Knight of the Reliquary in Nic Fit with a small land toolbox? He can get anything you're after and if someone kills him or any of the lands you tutor up from him you can always get them back (Sun Titan, Eternal Witness). Seems like it could be handy in a grindy sort of game.

Old list, but:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=613108&viewfull=1#post613108

Toolbox of Maze of Ith, Karakas, Volrath's Stronghold, and Wasteland could fit in there essentially. Maze of Ith is probably underplayed in this deck.

[mordraid]

Went to a small tournament last night. It has gone pretty well. 4 round of swiss, finish 4-0 to take 1st place.

I've beaten, Thopter-combo(2-0), goblins(2-0), bloodghast.dec(2-0) and some weird Doran deck(2-1).

I was very happy with how my deck perform. Losing only 1 game throughout the entire tournament was pretty cool. If some of you want a decklist i can prove it.

[OCPunisher]

I've been having some trouble lately with the UW Miracles matchup...any advice on how to shore that up? There's been a lot of talk recently about Carpet of Flowers in the board, but I don't think having more mana is really the issue. For me, the problem has been that I don't have any answers to either a resolved Jace or either of their Miracle spells unless I sandbag a Maelstrom Pulse.

Thoughts?

[HoneyT]

I've been having some trouble lately with the UW Miracles matchup...any advice on how to shore that up? There's been a lot of talk recently about Carpet of Flowers in the board, but I don't think having more mana is really the issue. For me, the problem has been that I don't have any answers to either a resolved Jace or either of their Miracle spells unless I sandbag a Maelstrom Pulse.

Thoughts?

Carpet of Flowers is good because it lets you board out most of your Explorers. They use the lands just as well as we do. We certainly don't want them casting a turn 2 Jace.

The best way to deal with that deck though are our own Planeswalkers. Most specifically for me, Garruk, Primal Hunter has been a house. I don't know what particular version you're running so he may not be viable for you. Other than Planeswalkers, I really like Cranial Extraction effects. You take out Jace and Entreat and their deck becomes a steaming pile of shit. Just make sure to leave in some number of Deeds as angel insurance.

Give some more specifics of your list and we'll be able to help out more.

[fireiced]

I've been having some trouble lately with the UW Miracles matchup...any advice on how to shore that up? There's been a lot of talk recently about Carpet of Flowers in the board, but I don't think having more mana is really the issue. For me, the problem has been that I don't have any answers to either a resolved Jace or either of their Miracle spells unless I sandbag a Maelstrom Pulse.

Thoughts?

as replied above, your version? (:

If you are on Jund or Scapewish, REBs are AWESOME! I also board in 2 Extirpates and 2 Boils [I am scapewish]

[Megadeus]

Are memoricide and Cranial Extraction actually just functionally the same exact card?

[HoneyT]

Are memoricide and Cranial Extraction actually just functionally the same exact card?

Hell no! Cranial Extraction is Arcane! You Splice Onto Arcane FTW!

[Nihilis]

Are memoricide and Cranial Extraction actually just functionally the same exact card?

Yes.
The only difference between them is that you can choose the number of copies you exile with Memoricide as it says "any number of cards" and that Cranial Extraction is an 'arcane' spell.

[Bzka]

@OCPunisher
If you run White, sticking an Elspeth against UW Miracles works wonders. Otherwise REB and Maelstrom Pulse(always run atleast 2) is the way to go.
In the GBu Version, as i run it, you have your own Jaces and Consecrated Sphinx. Drawing 6 out of their Jacestorm is like living the Dream.

[somethingdotdotdot]

If you have sphinx out...why would they jacestorm? Shouldn't they just bounce the sphinx and hope to draw into something relevant?

[Greenpoe]

Anyone tried a Worldly Tutor in the Scapewish build? For just 1 mana, it'll set up for a Thragtusk or Gravetitan on your next turn, or an Explorer if you need the mana. Or you can grab that creature immediately if you tap your Top.

[Bzka]

If you have sphinx out...why would they jacestorm? Shouldn't they just bounce the sphinx and hope to draw into something relevant?

Indeed, they have to bounce the sphinx over and over until they find something answer it. For the time Jace cant do his thing and win the game.

[Megadeus]

Since I am switching back to GB I may just have to play a couple of Memoricides in the board. Why is Caleb Durward still on the 4 Mindbreak trap plan in the board? Just curious. I havent seen too much storm, and I would rather stick a liliana and never let them build up a hand.

[HoneyT]

Since I am switching back to GB I may just have to play a couple of Memoricides in the board. Why is Caleb Durward still on the 4 Mindbreak trap plan in the board? Just curious. I havent seen too much storm, and I would rather stick a liliana and never let them build up a hand.

The upside Mindbreak Trap has is that it reacts on the stack, which storm won't expect. That being said, I don't like it at all. I greatly prefer extra targeted discard, extirpate and extraction effects. They're actually applicable in matchups outside of storm. Mostly miracles and Show and Tell combo, which is currently the premiere combo deck of choice. Besides, I don't even remember the last time I lost to storm post board even without Traps.

[Megadeus]

HoneyT you play the GB version? I havent played it for a couple of months so there are a few cards that I need to re-acquire. Is Memoricide even that good in straight GB? I am running 2 Thoughtseixe MB in addition to therapies as some extra discard.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm dropping the whale combo from my build. To be honest, I think Palinchron would work a lot better in Sneak Show, as it can be used to hardcast Emrakul with 5 lands and a Sneak Attack. Here: all it does is work with Recurring Nightmare and Eternal Witness to gain control of the board. Does not win the game by itself, leaving the deck vulnerable to topdecks.

Plus, Intuition into triple Cabal Therapy, as someone keeps mentioning, is deliciously evil, especially with Veteran(s) and GSZ(s). Why search for Witness x2 + Nightmare or Palinchron + whatevs x2 when I can rip my opponent's hand to shreds.

Also, I like JMS instead of Brainstorm and Tops. Does not die to deed, protects against other JMSs, and has utility outside of deck manipulation.

^ wild conjecture based off of goldfishing and worst-case scenario theorizing.

[Megadeus]

Yeah this is just a very clunky combo it seems. Just going the attrition control route seems so much better.

[DireLemming]

I'm dropping the whale combo from my build. To be honest, I think Palinchron would work a lot better in Sneak Show, as it can be used to hardcast Emrakul with 5 lands and a Sneak Attack. Here: all it does is work with Recurring Nightmare and Eternal Witness to gain control of the board. Does not win the game by itself, leaving the deck vulnerable to topdecks.
If you run Jace you can fate-seal them until they draw something useless. The only way you can not win when going off with Palinchron is if this was the last extra turn.

[Claymore]

Went 2-1-1 yesterday with Rusalka, x2 Thoughtseize, x2 Fleshbag Marauder, x1 Teeg main, and Thrun in place of the spare 6 drop (generally Yosei for you people) since I was anticipating a lot of blue control.

Tied 1-1-1 against Miracle Blade in round one. Got game 1 on the back of Thoughtseize -> Therapy -> Witness (Thoughtseize) -> Therapy -> Thoughtseize and beat down from there. I sided out an Explorer and some other stuff for like 10 cards, none of which were Carpet of Flowers or Raking Canopy (damn my procrastination). I mulled to 6 and saw no discard but had Tsunami and some good stuff in hand. Game 2 went long, but he got lucky and saw my Tsunami when he extracted Deeds early on and didn't fetch a lot of islands. Thrun stabilized against a Batterskull. I dropped Grave Titan when he miracled a Terminus and I blew up his Batterskull with a Pulse. Later, I GSZ for Thragtusk and he EOT Entreat the Angels for lethal. We had 8 minutes for game 3 and we both played to ensure a draw, haha. Otherwise I probably was going to win game 3 with an early top, early Rector to fetch Arena instead of the safeguard Deed, hard cast Thrun, and upcoming Memoricide.

I probably should've GSZ for Teeg instead of Grave Titan game 2 when he had Batterskull and I had Thrun, so that I still had a stabilizer against Batterskull and then could draw bombs at my leisure...aside from Swords on Teeg of course. One interesting play a turn or two prior was that he Fatesealed and it was an obvious hard choice to let me keep, but I decided to shuffle it away with Catacombs...it was a Memoricide.

Lost 1-2 to Monogreen Infect. That's a wtf matchup. Guess I need Swords or maybe Yosei. Never saw enough Deeds, and I was one Deed or cheap removal short of pulling it out in game 3.

Won next two round 2-0 and 2-1 by obliterating Zoo. Lost one game because I got stupid greedy with T1 Explorer chump, retrieved two forests to try and go Witness-Explorer-Play Explorer...but he exiled my graveyard and I couldn't clear the board until I was at 4 life. To steal a term from Arianhod, I still love Jedi-Mind Tricking people with active graveyard removal such that they can't do anything about Rector's triggered ability.

We had 16 people there and would've cut to top 8, but the tournament started super late and it was running into the double-feature Modern tournament so they did a cut to top 4...and then top 4 split the prizes evenly to get to Modern. My record was good enough for 6th or 7th :/.

Still like Fleshbag over Blood for its late game synergy with both Sun Titan and Recurring Nightmare, but with the more varied meta and Show and Tell disappearing I might swap it for x2 Swords, x2 Abrupt Decay, or x2 Liliana...with Reanimator popping up might have to roll with Swords because of Iona.

Extra discard was great. Rusalka was great. Used Teeg oddly enough against Infect to stop his GSZ and high drop proliferate artifacts. Never got Teeg against Miracleblade since the timing was never right in my mind, so that needs practice.

I also really need to order cards before the tournament...

[HoneyT]

@Megadeus

Yes, I've been playing G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've tested other versions and right now I firmly believe G/B and Scapewish are the best options to be playing. BUG, Rector, and Junk haven't been able to accomplish anything that I couldn't do with G/B and I don't feel it's worth weakening the mana base.

With that out of the way, yes I really like Memoricide effects in the sideboard. They're such a nail in the coffin against some decks. Omni-Tell can't actually beat one if it resolves. Miracles has a hard time winning and it will slow the other combo decks down enough for you to get there.

[Artlee]

@Megadeus

Yes, I've been playing G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've tested other versions and right now I firmly believe G/B and Scapewish are the best options to be playing. BUG, Rector, and Junk haven't been able to accomplish anything that I couldn't do with G/B and I don't feel it's worth weakening the mana base.

With that out of the way, yes I really like Memoricide effects in the sideboard. They're such a nail in the coffin against some decks. Omni-Tell can't actually beat one if it resolves. Miracles has a hard time winning and it will slow the other combo decks down enough for you to get there.
Omni decks run both Show and Tell and Burning Wish, as far as I know. Do you name Show and Tell when Memoricide resolves?

Same question for Miracle control: Do you name entreat or jace? I tried naming Top and it really crippled the opponent. Terminus isn't such a big problem because many our creatures apply enough pressure alone to only give them 1 for 1 with Terminus.

[HoneyT]

Omni decks run both Show and Tell and Burning Wish, as far as I know. Do you name Show and Tell when Memoricide resolves?

Same question for Miracle control: Do you name entreat or jace? I tried naming Top and it really crippled the opponent. Terminus isn't such a big problem because many our creatures apply enough pressure alone to only give them 1 for 1 with Terminus.

You grab Show and Tell first with Memoricide. If you get a second, go after their Burning Wish. Otherwise you can Therapy what they Wish for, or take the Wishes earlier in the game etc.

Against Miracles it really depends on what you're equiped to deal with at the time Memoricide resolves. If you have some beaters or a Planeswalker of your own you can probably take down a Jace, therefore name Entreat. If you have a Deed at the ready and aren't worried about angels, then get Jace first.

[jbone2016]

@Megadeus

Yes, I've been playing G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've tested other versions and right now I firmly believe G/B and Scapewish are the best options to be playing. BUG, Rector, and Junk haven't been able to accomplish anything that I couldn't do with G/B and I don't feel it's worth weakening the mana base.

With that out of the way, yes I really like Memoricide effects in the sideboard. They're such a nail in the coffin against some decks. Omni-Tell can't actually beat one if it resolves. Miracles has a hard time winning and it will slow the other combo decks down enough for you to get there.

I wish I had a cranial or memoricide in the board yesterday. Playing against ANT is just stupid.

[Megadeus]

I seem to lose most of my games to entreat. I think that not having to worry about them just ripping entreat and killing you is best. Of course I usually side out a deed against them because that is rerally the only thing that it is good against. Jace is a very slow win-con and we have a few ways of killing him.

As for SnT, I would think you name SnT first, then either E Witness back the memoricide and go for the wish, or use maybe a second one? SnT is the fastest way for them to win, generally Wish will take a second turn.

[litenkatt]

Alright I just got home from a tournament, I was there for approximatley 9 hours. We were playing 5 rounds and then a top8, about 20 people paticipating.

Before I tell you about the matches I'd like to summarize this day with five words, "Really ******* tired of emrakul" I'm going to make the report rather short because I'm very tired.

I played the Classic GB version.

Round1 against Enchantress
Game 1 I lost because I couldn't find any pernicious deed and eventually he hard casted emrakul.
Game 2 Pernicious deed won.
Game 3 Pernicious deed won.
1-0

Round2 against burn
Game 1 He burned me out. Really sad that I did not play any kitchen finks MD else I'd had a much better chance. Couldn't get to 6mana to gsz for thragtusk niether
Game 2 This was total bullshit srsly. I looked at my opening hand, Kitchen finks, thragtusk, veteran explorer x2, 2 lands, 1 deed. I smiled and was very certain I'd win this one.

I was like at 20 health after resolving a thragtusk and kitchen finks, after blowing up a deed to whipe his board + my 2x veteran exp. Passing the turn, he casted Figure of Destiny and some other creature. He had like 4-5 lands untapped when he passed the turn, and 8 lands in total(as he got a lot of lands from my vet. exp) . In my endstep he makes his figure of destiny a 4/4 and then on his turn a 8/8. He starts to beatdown and I can't find any answer at all to his stupid figure of destiny and he eventually wins the game. Oh boy...
1-1

Round 3 against hypergenesis
Game 1 He has emrakul+griselbrand turn 2.
Game 2 Read above.
1-2

Round 4 against show and tell w/ omni
Game 1 I play first and had a pretty good hand with alot of discard. I discard his whole hand pretty much, and he draws very poorly. Eventually kill him with veteran explorers and what not. Was very suprised as I thought I'd stand no chance at all against this deck.
Game 2 Same as above. Again, I couldn't really believe that I won 2 games in a row against this deck. . .
2-2

Round 5 against show and tell w/ omni again
Game 1 he plays ancient tomb, lotus petal and show and tell into griselbrand. I sigh and scoop.
Game 2 I won somehow. A lot of discard and he has poor draws. At this point I was just so happy that I've actually won 3 games against show and tell.
Game 3 I won again, read above. At this point I believed that God was fighting by my side against this stupid emrakul decks.
3-2

I got into the top 8!
Round 6 RUG
Game 1 Pernicious deed, maelstrom pulses and of course veteran explorer (<3) gets the job done!
Game 2 He got a sick hand like RUG players sometimes do, 2x delvers both flipped and a mongoose.
Game 3 Pretty much the same as game1!
4-2

Round 7 Show and tell w/ omni
Game 1 He dominiated this game so ******* hard. It wasn't even funny. Although, he forgot to discard cards from his hand in his cleanup phase, after he drew 7 cards with Griselbrand. Niether one of us noticed this until I did on his next turn which led to a game loss for him. Omg, I tell you, God was standing right next to me right then.
Game 2 He wins turn 1.
Game 3 He wins turn 3-4. I couldn't find any discard at all.
4-3

Oh well, it would have been so much fun if I'd make it to the finals after beating my 3rd show and tell opponent and 4th emrakul deck! Oh well, I got a 1x sword of light and shadow promo & 1x sword of fire and ice promo so I'm happy overall.

I am however not going to play GB version anymore, It's simply too weak in my meta. Going to try out Rector deck for sure next time.

Arianrhod, you're not alone. I really, really don't like emrakul niether.

Also, how important is Moat for the rector version? Is there any card I could replace moat with that does somewhat the same job? (Moat is a bit too expensive for me atm). Maybe Teferi's Moat?

[fireiced]

Arianrhod, you're not alone. I really, really don't like emrakul niether.



Firstly congrats on top 4! (:

We are not alone! The spaghetti monster is hated with impunity! :mad:

If you are playing the rector list, I am afraid there is no substitute for moat!

[Vicar in a tutu]

I played in a small legacy-tournament this weekend (10 people). I have played G/B Nic Fit quite a lot and have won a few tournaments with it. But only when the combo decks stayed away. The meta this time was as follows:

- Maverick x2
- RUG Delver x2
- High Tide
- Sneak and Show
- Omnitell
- Hive Mind
- Junk midrange
- G/B Nic Fit (me)

My list was fairly stock, except I played 8 discard spells main (4 Thought Seize in addition to 4 cabal). My sideboard had, among other things, 2 Duress, 3 Extirpates, 1 Craniel Extraction and 1 Memoricide). I ended up going 1-3:

* Omnitell (0-2)
* High Tide (0-2)
* Junk (2-0)
* Sneak Attack (0-2)

Unfortunately, I didn't get a single match vs. RUG or Maverick. My deck totally **** on me, failing to draw discard against combo despite aggressive mulligans. In the second game vs. Sneak Attack, I had to mulligan twice to get anything that could interact with him (1 cabal, 1 thoughtseize), only to find that he had a Leyline of Sanctity.

In the finals, Maverick won 2-1 against Omnitell. I watched the game, comparing Maverick's disruption to mine. When I managed to disrupt my opponent, I never had a clock. The game went on long without me being able to pressure my opponent. Thalia + Wasteland is incredibly powerful, and if Maverick has a noble hierarch, Thalia hits for 3.

Really, if we want to play a midrange controllerish deck with Green Sun's Zenith, is there any reason not to play Maverick? I know Nic Fit usually beats Maverick, but Nic Fit is a tiny, tiny percentage of decks in a developed meta and very rarely makes top 8.

[Alexeezay]

Hello guys :)
I'm gonna try G/B when RTR is out.
Abrupt Decay will obv. be played. What do you think is the correct number?
I thougt of 3 Abrupt Decay / 2 Maelstrom Pulse.
For planeswalkers it will be 1 Vraska 1 Garruk 2 Liliana or something like that.

Also, comeback of Hymn to Tourach? It turns out to be pretty effective again as I tested with a friend who's a really good Team America player (he plays Hymns).
With all the Show and Tell/combo decks running rampant in the metagame right now, Hymn to Tourach is a card to look at again.

[guelahpapyrus]

I've been testing Abrupt Decay in a GBw rock style build and it quickly became a 4 of. I never got tired of seeing it. 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Maelstrom, 1 Vindicate, 2 Swords to Plowshares.

Abrupt Decay is the best removal spell ever printed for our deck. It should be a minimum 2-3 in every Nic Fit deck.

[CRich3]

@guelahpapyrus can you post your list? I am running GBw at SCG Cincy on the 7th and I need to make sure I make the correct changes. Hopefully I can get some Abrupt decay's for the tournament but I will see. Bad thing is I dont get anymore practice until then because of all the releases, so all i can do is play solitary and go by what people post here.

[guelahpapyrus]

CRich3,

Sure thing. I'm still doing a lot of testing with this. I've marked the questionable choices with asterisks.

This list is relatively metagame specific. I've got a lot of creature/permanent decks in my area and I don't go to any SCG events anymore. (I'm not down to play 8-9 rounds of magic. Fuck that noise. It's not even fun after round 4 or 5.) My SB is 4 Duress, 1 Memoricide, 2 Surgical, 1 Extirpate, 1 Pernicious Deed. The variable slots are Tsunami, Loxodon Smiter*, Gaddock Teeg, Engineered Plague*, and Carpet of Flowers*.


3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter *
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant *
2 Eternal Witness

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor *

[Tao]

Hoooooly shit, @Tao posted =D What version are you playing these days?


Eh, sry for the long absence. Recently I did not get to play much. I am very glad that you guys are doing so well. Rector lists, Scapefit and Gbu all seem awesome. Too bad they print a sick card to Show and Tell in every edition though.

But at least this time we got something too. At the moment I look into Gbu because it profits a lot from Abrupt Decay. I currently play 3 Decays and they perform very well. Jarad's Orders seems like it has a lot of potential, too, but I didn't get to toy with it yet.

[jbone2016]

Curious if anyone at the invitational played Nic Fit this weekend.

[Nelis]

So I played at our local tournament. Its the first tournament in a loooong time where we've had such an amazing first prize. We could choose between a Revised Tundra or a From the Vault: Realms. Other prizes (for top 8) were Force of Will, Windswept Heath and Arid Mesa. There were 34 players (maximum number for our venue). I played BG and went 2-3. I did think I played well barring one blunder which luckily turned out well and one poor GSZ choice which turned out not zo well. I did have some good results naming Cabal Therapy.

Round 1 vs Miracle 0-2
The first game was long and grindy. I played very well but lost eventually because of a poor GSZ decision. I was on 3 life and my opponent on 2. I GSZ for Deranged Hermit because I figured I'd have enough threats to get the final damage through without the chance of risking losing to a stp or Jace (bounce). Unfortunately for me my opponent was able to V. Clique at the end of my turn and attack me for 3 in his. I should've searched for Thragtusk but alas.

The second game was a fruitless exercition. I think I had to mulligan once but am not sure. My opponent let me resolve Cabal Therapy and I said Brainstorm and hit so his trick didn't work. Unfortunately he played a Relic of Progenitus on his turn and removed my Cabal Therapy so I couldn't 'wreck' his hand. But I never got back in the game any way. I didnt draw very well which forced me to play Thrun with 4 mana (and 2 Veteran Exporers in play) hoping he would not have a Terminus so I could at least out some pressure on. Needless to say I was not that lucky. I didn't feel like waiting for his Jace to go ultimate so I scooped with a few minutes on the clock.

Round 2 vs Infect. 2-0 This guy was an absolutely terrible player.
Game one he played an infect dude with a Elvish Spirit Guide but didnt 'play' a land. I killed his creature with Dismember and simply won afterwards because he drew no land.

Game two was equally bad. Can't remember much other than that I wrecked his hand with Therapies and Hymns.

Round 3 vs Stoneblade 0-2
Can't remember much about game one. I do remember having Cabal Therapy resolve turn one which he allowed. Him hesitating made me choose Brainstorm which was a hit. For the rest of the game I could kinda keep up with him until that darned Jace landed. That's when I lost.

Game two I mulled to 5 and kept a hand with Therapy, Swamp, Forest, GSZ and Liliana. So I GSZ for Dryad Arbor turn 1. Turn 2 I drew another Liliana and played Therapy. I think I named FOW and hit but am not sure. I also saw a Vindicate in his hand which made me decide not to flashback Cabal Therapy with Arbor because that would put me on 2 land and he could Vindicate my land leaving me with only one land. I couldve named Vindicate but what good would that have been? Id rather have him vindicate my land himself evenually which he did. So I got stuck on 2 land for another 2 turns. My third land was a forest which wasn't useful since I wanted swamp for Liliana. After another turn or 2 stuck on 2 forest and 1 swamp I desperately needed a swamp to clear his board with Damnation. When I finally drew that forth land it was Phyrexian Tower. So I lost this game too dying of 4 Spirits and a Snapcaster. My life went 14 to 10 to 4 to dead.

Round 4 vs Combo Elves. 2-0
In testing I lost most games but luckily at he tournament it went well.

I dont remember the specifics for game one bu I was gradually able to get rid of his creatures with targeted Removal and Liliana (no need for Deed here).

Game 2 went about the same. I did make a major misplay. He had a couple of elves plus 2 Symbiotes in play and I had a Thrun and Ooze in play. I was able to attack with both but he was able to chumpblock/return elf with Symbiote my fairly big Ooze. Eventuale I was able to kill one Symbiote with a Chalice and Damnation in hand. So I thought it would be smart to attack letting him return an elf and me playing Damnation regenerating my Thrun and play Chalice for one and attack the next turn for Lethal. Those of you who are paying attention (I clearly wasn't) should have realised by now that Damnation says 'creatures can't regenerate'. When he took his turn he realised that my Thrun should've died too. So suddenly I had no creature at all and couldn't play the Top I drew because of chalice on 1. It almost went wrong there but luckily for me I was able to win eventually. If I remember corectly it was Deranged Hermit that rode me to victory.

Round 5 vs Nic-fit-Body Double-Protean Hulk-Reveillark-Mogg Fanatic-with-Natural Order-Pattern of Rebirth-Progenitus-backup-combo 0-2 The one matchup I didn't want to face the last round.

Game 1 I tapped out for something and he was able to combo off.

Game 2 I wasn't able to keep him off Pattern of Rebirth goining into Progenitus. He had a Bird of Paridise and Progenitus in play so I killed the Bird in his turn hoping I would draw a Liliana in my turn to have him sac Progenitus. I didn't draw Liliana so in his next turn he attacked for ten leaving me at 6 life. He then played another creature so should I draw Liliana in my turn it wouldn't be of any use. So thats how he won.

So all in all I'm not too unhappy about the way I played so I can live with the not-so-good result. Most important to me is not playing sloppy.

One thing I absolutely do loathe is Jace the Mindsculptor. I just dont seem to be able to win against decks that play Jace.

[Megadeus]

Jace is definitely the most feared card for a Nic Fit player. He is why I have been thinking of running some kind of hasty Green guy to GSZ up to kill Jace kind of like how Vintage decks run Slash Panther.

I was going to play in the invitational seeing as I live in ATL but I had to go to a wedding :(

[Ayotte]

Jace is definitely the most feared card for a Nic Fit player. He is why I have been thinking of running some kind of hasty Green guy to GSZ up to kill Jace kind of like how Vintage decks run Slash Panther.

I was going to play in the invitational seeing as I live in ATL but I had to go to a wedding :(

This is a long shot but it wasn't Joe and Catherine's wedding was it?

[Megadeus]

This is a long shot but it wasn't Joe and Catherine's wedding was it?

It was in Myrtle Beach SC. It was a James and Katie (though catherine may be her real name!) haha.

[Ayotte]

It was in Myrtle Beach SC. It was a James and Katie (though catherine may be her real name!) haha.

Ah. I had a friend go to Atlanta for a wedding this weekend so I thought there was a tiny chance for a small world moment.

[Megadeus]

Ah. I had a friend go to Atlanta for a wedding this weekend so I thought there was a tiny chance for a small world moment.

Would be a funny little coincidence!

[Qweerios]

@Nelis,

That last deck you played against is called ZeRO (Zenith Rebirth Order combo). It is a very strong deck. The creator of that deck (Xanthid Swarm) used to play at my lgs. He dominated for nearly half a year, then vanished when Cage came out.

[MrIggins]

Jace is definitely the most feared card for a Nic Fit player. He is why I have been thinking of running some kind of hasty Green guy to GSZ up to kill Jace kind of like how Vintage decks run Slash Panther.

Might the new Dreg Mangler be worth running as a 1-of, for Jace-killing purposes? It doesn't immediately get there if they've started fatesealing, but it might not be a bad one.

[Megadeus]

Not sure if the Mangler is what I am looking for. I was thinking stragleroot so if I have a Therapy in the Yard I can use it and attack for three, or attack for 2 and put jace at 1 so they are forced to either fateseal or brainstorm then to kill jace.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Living Wish
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island

Definitely need help with the wishboard: so far Maze of Ith for Sneaky Spaghetti Monsters, Karakas for Iona and Showy Spaghetti Monsters, Bojuka Bog for Dredge, Fleshbag Marauder for Proggy, and Phyrexian Revoker for JMS sound amazing.

[Nelis]

@Nelis,

That last deck you played against is called ZeRO (Zenith Rebirth Order combo). It is a very strong deck. The creator of that deck (Xanthid Swarm) used to play at my lgs. He dominated for nearly half a year, then vanished when Cage came out.

Ah thanx for the name. I know its a strong deck, my opponent has been playing that deck for ages too and is a better player than me so that's why I didn't want to play him.

[Qweerios]

Maze of Ith won't stop Annihilator.

Try a singleton Life from the Loam instead of Living Wish. That way, you get to play all those good lands maindeck and have a real sideboard.

[BlackMetalSheep]

Hi guys!! I'm an italian Nic-Fit player and in the past I've played GBw Rock version and Rector version, but now I play BUG version with Brainstorm.

Here's my list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Consacrated Sphinx

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Liliana Of The Veil
2 Jace The Mind Sculptor

4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
1 Memoricide
3 Negate
3 Carpet Of Flowers

Post release of RTR I wanna find space for Abrupt Decay, maybe 1 Vraska e 1 Garruk, Primal Hunter.. Do you have some advice about this, guys?? ;)

Sorry for the loooooooong post and for my english and thank you for the attention!! :)

[kabards]

^ maybe you should reduce your pernicious deed to 3 and remove 1 innocent blood and put in 2 Abrupt Decay

[Arianrhod]

There's a very interesting thread developing here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24709-The-Current-Metagame-Junk-vs-Canadian-Threshold&p=675367#post675367

Hanni directed it more at our Rockish brethren, but the thought process behind his post definitely relates to us, as well. Definitely looks like some interesting discourse.

[BlackMetalSheep]

^ maybe you should reduce your pernicious deed to 3 and remove 1 innocent blood and put in 2 Abrupt Decay

I want a more Control BUG-FIT with many removal, and Innocent Blood is one of the sac-outlet for Veteran Explorer, and I thought to play in 2x maybe!! The list that I have in mind is this:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana Of The Veil
1 Vraska (or 1 Garruk Primal Hunter)

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp

TOT: 60 cards (or 61 with +1 Liliana or +1 Innocent Blood)

[Star|Scream]

BlackMetalSheep: With so many cards doing the same thing (multiple planeswalkers, decay, blood, pulse, deed) have you thought of 2 gifts ungiven?

You could remove a stronghold and put in a genesis. And then you can remove the fierce empath.

Then you can grab piles like

Eternal witness
Jace
Liliana
Garruk

or

Eternal Witness
Pulse
Deed
Decay

or

Eternal Witness
Cabal Therapy
Grave Titan
Genesis

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Maze of Ith won't stop Annihilator.

Try a singleton Life from the Loam instead of Living Wish. That way, you get to play all those good lands maindeck and have a real sideboard.

Two things: 1, the mana base would suffer tremendously from having them in the main and 2, Thoughtseize, Living Wish, and Thragtusk (or rather the 8 slots they occupy) are the hardest for me to fill, simply because they lack the same synergy the rest of the deck has with itself and are not as powerful as Intuition, Abrupt Decay, and Cabal Therapy.

Explanation Ahead:

GSZ can fetch Titan, Witness, Vet, and Tusk.
Titan can fetch the Stronghold Tower combo and fetchlands, which in turn fetch basics and dual lands.
Vet can be sacced for Tower or Therapy, and gives our deck an advantage when when we detonate a Deed for anything other than 0.
Jace-Storm works wonders with all the search-shuffle effects.
Witness can be recurred indefinitely with Stronghold Tower and thus can recur any of the control elements indefinitely.
Therapy can easily wreck an opponent's hand, especially combined with Intuition. Although Goldfishing is a far cry from legitimate playtesting, it still speaks a lot when you can activate Cabal Therapy four to eight times within the first five turns.
Intuition can search for anything x 3, anything x 2 and Witness x 1, or anything x 1 and Witness x 2.
And Abrupt Decay, although more of a meta-call, is absolutely vital for breaking CounterTop strategies wide open.

Any suggestions on how to fill those 8 slots to better compliment the deck?

[BlackMetalSheep]

BlackMetalSheep: With so many cards doing the same thing (multiple planeswalkers, decay, blood, pulse, deed) have you thought of 2 gifts ungiven?

You could remove a stronghold and put in a genesis. And then you can remove the fierce empath.

Then you can grab piles like

Eternal witness
Jace
Liliana
Garruk

or

Eternal Witness
Pulse
Deed
Decay

or

Eternal Witness
Cabal Therapy
Grave Titan
Genesis

I have already thought to Gifts Ungiven pack, but I don't wanna to expose me to Graveyard hate. I give it a try however!! ;)

[Star|Scream]

I have already thought to Gifts Ungiven pack, but I don't wanna to expose me to Graveyard hate. I give it a try however!! ;)

It is still 2 cards for one even if they completely remove your graveyard. If they extirpate something then you still got 3 cards (1 left in graveyard for us = win)

Think of it as 3U: Search my library for 2 planeswalkers AT WORST

[Qweerios]

@BlackMetalSheep,

Looks like you're playing one of the lists I posted when I started playing BUG, along with a pretty similar sideboard. Within this thread, you can find many BUG Fit lists that utilize different mechanics BUG has to offer. Amongst those mechanics is Fierce Empath, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition, Genesis and others that don't come to mind. Having played each of those iterations, here is my opinion on the subject:

Empath doesn't belong in BUG. Blue brings a new dimension of manipulation to the deck where we reach a point where board superiority represented by threats is irrelevant. You will always have more removal, or means of finding removal at your disposition, landing a threat is simply a matter of having one. This is the reason why Thrun is good in BUG, we have access to endless removal and wipes, and the troll will keep on trolling regardless of how badly you want him to stop. The only creature tutor you need is GSZ. With such a low threat count, you have to make sure that they all have a special purpose and that you can have access to it via GSZ. In other words, I wouldn't play Grave Titan in a list sporting 12 creatures or less.

Gifts is great because it adds a new dimension to the deck. An important aspect of playing a dedicated control deck, is to be able to abuse every single zones of play (Stack, Hand, Board, GY). This will not only give you versatility, but it will create an impossible dilema for your opponent: Do I or do I not side in GY hate? Whatever they choose, the ball is in your park because you choose what plan you commit to. Gifts also doesn't stop there, if the GY engine goes to shit, you are still left with more cards than prior to the Gifts, and your opponent has less than prior to the hate. Gifts also enables emergency piles to answer corner-case scenarios.

Here is my current BUG Fit list for reference/criticism:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (24)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dust Bowl
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Negate


I basicaly just changed the singleton Wasteland for a Dust Bowl and took out 1 Jace and 1 Lily for a Birds and a Creeping Tar pit.

@EpicLevelCommoner,

I am fairly positive that when you add lands to a deck, you tend to ameliorate your manabase, not the opposite. All you need is 20 colored lands to play Nic Fit, and you already have 21 + 3 utility, and that's without Brainstorm even...

I don't think you need 2 Thragtusks, in the matchups where he is relevant, 1 is enough. Maindeck Thoughtseize in a tricolored list is probably not optimal either. A pair of targeted discard along with 4 Therapies won't win you any matchups that you have no business winning without. If you are facing a stack-based combo deck, don't expect anything from game 1, even with a full set of Thoughtseize you will still be at a disadvantage. Your best bet is with good therapies (at least 4), a Liliana, and an Ooze beatdown.

Also, Brainstorm and Tops will give you more of a toolbox than Wish or Intuition combined. Play a full playset of Brainstorm at least before you even consider Jace.

I suggest the following changes:

-1 Swamp
-1 Island
-1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Thragtusk
-1 Eternal Witness
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Living Wish
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Intuition / Jace / Decay

+1 Tropical island
+1 Karakas
+1 Wasteland
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
+4 Brainstorm
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Penicious Deed

Your curve went down, your manipulation went up, your GSZ package is more diverse, and you now have a Loam package to go with you Intuition/Titan.

[somethingdotdotdot]

@qweerios, I tried your previous bug list with a couple of tweaks versus a miracles deck. We did 5 test games (all preboard) and I lost each one. Some of the main problems I encountered were jace, clique/karakas combo, and ironically, counterbalance. The root of the problem all started with him landing a jace and subsequently countering my pulses. He then ended up floating a 5 and 6 with countertop in one game, basically locking me out of my threats. Another game he got by using clique/karakas to protect jace while floating a 3 with balance to counter deed/pulse.

The matchup felt rather difficult as fow basically become another hardcastable counterspell after 1-2 turns and a resolved jace just gives them enough counters to close out the game (terminus also deals with thrun rather nicely). I should mention that I didn't get to resolve a therapy in any of the matches (either not drawn at all or was locked out by balance), but I was wondering how you dealt with jace.

Another concern was that I was rarely happy to draw a liliana in this matchup--miracles have more tops than nic fit as well as a greater capacity to topdeck something amazing (entreat/terminus). In general, the symmetrical discard felt lackluster without loam or fires to break that symmetry. Perhaps I'm using her wrong as the only decks I've used her in had those elements to turn her +1 into card advantage.

[HoneyT]

Qweerios I know you're a pretty staunch supporter of the no Dryad Arbor camp. I'm curious about the presence of Birds of Paradise in your new BUG list. One of your arguments against the Arbor was because you can usually just wait to Zenith for 1 and get an Explorer. When are you Zenithing for Birds instead? Is it for Merfolk to tap for blue without needing to fetch an Island? Blocker for Delver? Just curious about your reasoning.

[Star|Scream]

Me too. We don't run any equipment to make use of the flying, and chumping delver for one turn doesn't seem all that appealing. Why not at least go with an elf that can kill a regular delver and can still ping your opponent?

[HoneyT]

Oh and I forgot to suggest to BlackMetalSheep try out Diabolic Intent in that Innocent Blood slot!

[BlackMetalSheep]

Oh and I forgot to suggest to BlackMetalSheep try out Diabolic Intent in that Innocent Blood slot!

Yeah, I have already play 2x Diabolic Intent in GBw versione and I try it in the Innocent slot because I always want 6 sac-outlet!! ;)

[Ayotte]

@Qweerios Do you consider 2 Thragtusk to always be overkill? I always like playing control decks with just barely enough threats to win the game, but I've ran into multiple situations where my one Thragtusk gets swordsed and when I'm GSZing again I really want a second. For this reason, I've been using 2 Thragtusk and enjoying it.

Another thing I would like to ask people: a lot of the time when I play a Liliana I am very reluctant to use her discard ability, because it often ends up where I have one or two cards in my hand, at least one of which is a Thragtusk/Titan, and my opponent has four cards in hand. Therefore, the discard ability hurts me more than my opponent. Am I wrong? Is it better to just hope that I topdeck another threat/witness soon enough? I understand that we're better at topdecking than most, but this always seems like I'm making myself topdeck while they still have options. Should I just not use Liliana during one of these turns?

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios Do you consider 2 Thragtusk to always be overkill? I always like playing control decks with just barely enough threats to win the game, but I've ran into multiple situations where my one Thragtusk gets swordsed and when I'm GSZing again I really want a second. For this reason, I've been using 2 Thragtusk and enjoying it.

Another thing I would like to ask people: a lot of the time when I play a Liliana I am very reluctant to use her discard ability, because it often ends up where I have one or two cards in my hand, at least one of which is a Thragtusk/Titan, and my opponent has four cards in hand. Therefore, the discard ability hurts me more than my opponent. Am I wrong? Is it better to just hope that I topdeck another threat/witness soon enough? I understand that we're better at topdecking than most, but this always seems like I'm making myself topdeck while they still have options. Should I just not use Liliana during one of these turns?

Ayotte, you're still on Scapewish, right? The rules are a little different for Scapewish than for other versions, I feel. I strongly believe that 2 Thragtusks is correct for that version, and periodically have even entertained the idea of adding a 3rd. Thragtusk is not just an effective beatstick for Scapewish, it also buys you an inordinate amount of time, and really time is all Scapewish needs to win. If it can live long enough, it -will- kill you. That's one reason among many why I defend Huntmaster so voraciously.

I could see running double Tusk in BUG, but I think that's a bit of a stretch, and you can probably do better things. I also agree with virtually everything that Qweerios said about BUG in his last post.

As for Liliana, you're not the only one that feels that way, Ayotte. That's all I'm going to say because I don't want to spark that debate AGAIN. My advice would be that if you don't feel she's pulling her weight, cut her.

@Birds of Paradise -- Pretty sure this is adapted technology that I adopted from Paul Ewenstein when I met him at GP Boston. He'd put a Noble Hierarch into his BUG Fit deck, primarily because it improved the Merfolk matchup enormously (you have access to blue mana without needing islands, and usually BUG Fit only needs 1x Island unless you're dropping Jace and winning on the spot). It also provides a mana dork that can be Zenithed for when you don't have a sac outlet for the Explorer and/or are up vs a matchup where you don't really want Explorer g1. Paul preferred Hierarch because of the fringe benefit of having an Exalted trigger that you can Zenith out when you need an extra point of damage, whereas I believe Qweerios is siding with Birds because it produces black. Birds seems fine to me.

@Qweerios -- Speaking in Magic theory terms, I would add a 5th category to the zones that Nic Fit can interact with: library. I'm referring specifically to Cranial Extraction and Memoricide here. Attacking the actual deck can be highly relevant in some matchups, to the point where it can just straight win the matchup for you. BUG Fit is the only deck that I can think of that can actually attack on all 5 angles simultaneously, which is pretty cool IMO.

As for your latest list, are you planning on putting in Abrupt Decays/Vraska? I know you were talking about it a while ago, but since they aren't there now, I'm not sure if you decided against them for some reason. What are you planning on dropping for them, if you're still putting them in?

Also, has E. Plague been better than just straight sweepers for you? I'm thinking specifically of something like Infest that would kill Teeg, Revoker (while ignoring Mom), and other various pains in the ass. E. Plague won't do anything to like Merfolk, but Infest might...both are obviously blowouts vs Goblins and Elves. I don't think Damnation is correct for the backup sweeper, but I do question E. Plague. How has Dust Bowl been since you don't have Loam anymore to abuse it?

[Ayotte]

Actually, I'm on G/B

[Megadeus]

The reason I like Damnation over infest in the SB is because Infest does nothing against Opposing KOTR or if a merfolk player has multiple lords out. This is one thing I have been struggling with. I dont know what my back up sweeper should be in GB.

[Tao]

Her eis what I run atm. I had the Trinket Mage version for a while and Abrupt Decay was exactly what the deck needed. Can't ask for more than efficient 2-drop-removal that still ignores Spell Snare. Pulse was too slow and Doom Blades and the others too inconsistent.
I like Trinket Mage more than 2 addional Zeniths because it gives a lot of flexibility. With Explosives, Spellbomb and Top you always have something good in G1 and in G2 it can even grab Chalice/Crypt for more efficient Combo/Yard hate and Needle to fight all sorts of things (Top, Planeswalkers). It also lets you profit more from Primeval Titan when he gets Academy Ruins + Volrath's Stronghold.
A 2/2 split between Damnation and Deed has been working out good. Damnation is more efficient at killing creatures and Decay lets you handle some of the other stuff they might play. It also goes around D&Ts annoying Revoker/Mother of Runes combo. I'd almost always rather draw 1 Deed / 1 Damnation than 2 Deeds and usually it makes no big difference which one it is if I only draw 1.

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Island
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [M12] Acidic Slime
1 [CMD] Eternal Witness
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [PLC] Damnation
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 [M11] Negate
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate

[Viridia]

I actually really like the look of that Trinket Mage toolbox aswell as the list as a whole.
I'll post the Planeswalkers centered Gifts version i'm playing atm as soon as i have some more time.

[Megadeus]

More than anything I love a good Trinket Mage toolbox. I would totally play that list if I had the lands for it. How good is chalice of the void really for this deck though? We do tand to have some key 1 drops.

[Tao]

Me too. Both Explosives and Top are really good in this deck and a Spellbomb won't hurt.
Chalice is not meant as a value card against cantrips. It is there against Storm Combo and Belcher so that you can Trinket Mage and immediately set it at 0 to shut down Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox and LED. It can also come in against Burn and be set on 1. I wouldn't fault you for taking it out if you don't expect any Storm, it is not a key card.

[Star|Scream]

I actually really like the look of that Trinket Mage toolbox aswell as the list as a whole.
I'll post the Planeswalkers centered Gifts version i'm playing atm as soon as i have some more time.

I'm very interested in seeing this. I still haven't figured out a good gifts list with abrupt decay.

[Viridia]

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

11 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer


22 Other spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top

5 Planeswalkers
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated

Sideboard (15)

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Telemin Performance
3 Thoughtseize


It seems to work quite well, need to test vs Miracles tho, having uncounterable removal for Clique/Counterbalance is quite good tho, aswell as another Pulse and Carpet in the side.
The deck usually ends the game with atleast 2 Walkers on the field, simply because it needs them to win, and is pretty much build to get them online.
I'm thinking of putting in Liliana of Vraska, but i'm not sure yet what to cut as i've been really happy with Karn lately, even at its cmc of 7.

[Arianrhod]

@Viridia -- Telemin Performance is hilarious. I like it.

Is Nightmare good enough in this deck? I'm fully aware that turning it into a draw engine with Strix is quite good, but I feel like there should be something else to do with it. It might be more efficacious just to cut it for a Vraska, to further emphasize your walker package. Alternatively, you could put in a Keiga and take all of the things...

You could also pursue a slight transformational board, with Jarad's Orders into Body Double + fatty. Would only take something like 4 slots, (2 Orders, 1 BD, 1 fatty), and could work with Gifts with a little tinkering as well, if you don't draw into the Orders. It's a thought...not sure how good it is, but there it is. Probably better than Clique.

[Viridia]

The Nightmare is mainly to be able to Gifts for Witness/Nightmare/Walker/Walker(Sphinx)
I've had alot of Gifts Piles where people just gave me the Walker/Walker because else i'd also have the Nightmare/Witness engine online. It's mainly there to make sure your Walkers are never going anywhere but into hand->play.
Keiga is actually a good idea i might test that.
Also Orders into Body Double + fatty sounds good, however people probably allready side in graveyard hate :(

[Star|Scream]

It's a very interesting take on it. No GSZ to speak of. If you do keep the recurring nightmare, perhaps switch the consecrated sphinx for a sphinx of uthuun? It gets you 1-4 cards immediately each time you recur.

[Viridia]

I never thought of that, might be better then Consecrated Sphinx, i'll try it out as soon as i got some time.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

@Tao

Did you test against Goblins? It's still one of the harder matchups as far as i am concerned even if you know what to do with Therapies etc. you will eventually be overwhelmed by the green men. Chieftain + Krenko + Piledriver can one-shot you out of nowhere.

Engineered Plagues seem narrow and need to be doubled to really affect them. Is there anything else besides Crawlspace?

[Arianrhod]

The Nightmare is mainly to be able to Gifts for Witness/Nightmare/Walker/Walker(Sphinx)
I've had alot of Gifts Piles where people just gave me the Walker/Walker because else i'd also have the Nightmare/Witness engine online. It's mainly there to make sure your Walkers are never going anywhere but into hand->play.
Keiga is actually a good idea i might test that.
Also Orders into Body Double + fatty sounds good, however people probably allready side in graveyard hate :(

Do they really? Looking at your list, I wouldn't side in gy hate vs it...only if I had a lot of dead cards and wanted to trade up for marginal value. Also, even if they have gy hate, you still tutor for something to hand -- and B.Double can take things out of your opp's gy, too, if they Crypt you or some such. And that makes sense RE Nightmare -- I'd still like to see one or two other things to really get some solid abuse going, but that's certainly fair. Could also put in a 1x Green Sun to throw into Gifts piles -- people would be pretty scared of it, and it would let you go Gifts -> GSZ, Witness, Nightmare, X, ensuring that you get all 4 cards (eventually), and that you get your Witness engine set up in one shot.

[Tao]

@Tao

Did you test against Goblins? It's still one of the harder matchups as far as i am concerned even if you know what to do with Therapies etc. you will eventually be overwhelmed by the green men. Chieftain + Krenko + Piledriver can one-shot you out of nowhere.

Engineered Plagues seem narrow and need to be doubled to really affect them. Is there anything else besides Crawlspace?

Good point.

Like you said G1 against Goblins is a lot about Cabal Therapy to take out their Matron/Ringleader engine. Unless you would really die to Warchief or Piledriver you should always nuke their draw engine and take a bit of damage. Thoughtseizs can also do that if they only have one.
The game is often that you take quite a bit early damage, then nuke the board and they have 2-3 turns to topdeck a Ringleader/Matron while you are busy finishing their remains and setting up your engine. If they don't and you have untapped with a stable board and Jace or Primeval in play then you win. If you can't prevent them from going nuts with Ringleaders or they kill you before you can clean the board then they win. I like the matchup, it is pretty fun and using Explorers correctly is challenging because brainlessly ramping will often result in them killing you in one big attack. Sometimes you just have to go for it, other times it is correct to hold it back.

For the SB Plague is insanely good against Goblins if you find room in the SB. Don't believe rumours it would be not good or that it is only good if you draw two of them, that is nonsence. One alone kills all Lackeys, War Marshalls, Matrons, SGC/Krenko tokens, Instigators and severely weakens the rest. Unless you draw only lands this is usually wrecking enough that you can take the game easily. Crawlspace (or any Artifact for that matter) is useless against a deck that can Matron for Tuktuk Scrapper and it is worse than Plague to begin with.
So with Goblins in the Meta in the USA I should probably replace the Virtue's Ruin with Engineered Plagues. It is also okay against Maverick / D&T. I edited my list because I forgot about the Goblin trend in SCGs.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I tested the matchup from the Goblin side and managed to win several games against a singleton Plague, though i think it might be more shifted against some random player at a tourney who either just goes for Krenko -> win! or doesn't know how to interact with Nic Fit style decks properly.

The point you made about using Explorers correctly come up more often by now anyways, as Miracles and Blade may use the mana.

What are our opinions on Memoricide? I'd love to play Slaughter Games but i want to remain in BUG. The real threat that Miracles has against us are Entreats as we play our own Jaces. But Explosives may be unrealiable if UW plays any of them as well preventing us from setting Explosives 0 preemptively.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Damnation.

Kev Walker is an unfavorable match up for Goblins.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Sure if you follow up with the other cards and apply pressure fast enough it works, otherwise it's about the same situation as for Miracles. Enough mana and Ringleader/Matron refuel their game pretty effectively.

[Qweerios]

@qweerios, I tried your previous bug list with a couple of tweaks versus a miracles deck. We did 5 test games (all preboard) and I lost each one. Some of the main problems I encountered were jace, clique/karakas combo, and ironically, counterbalance. The root of the problem all started with him landing a jace and subsequently countering my pulses. He then ended up floating a 5 and 6 with countertop in one game, basically locking me out of my threats. Another game he got by using clique/karakas to protect jace while floating a 3 with balance to counter deed/pulse.

The matchup felt rather difficult as fow basically become another hardcastable counterspell after 1-2 turns and a resolved jace just gives them enough counters to close out the game (terminus also deals with thrun rather nicely). I should mention that I didn't get to resolve a therapy in any of the matches (either not drawn at all or was locked out by balance), but I was wondering how you dealt with jace.

Another concern was that I was rarely happy to draw a liliana in this matchup--miracles have more tops than nic fit as well as a greater capacity to topdeck something amazing (entreat/terminus). In general, the symmetrical discard felt lackluster without loam or fires to break that symmetry. Perhaps I'm using her wrong as the only decks I've used her in had those elements to turn her +1 into card advantage.

G1 against Miracle is unfavorable for any control Nic Fit versions I've ever played. Explorer ramp is inherently flawed against MUs that can take advantage of those basics as well as we do.

@Ayotte,

Yes I think 2 Thragtusk is overkill. His primary purpose is to gain life and persist, not to seal a game (in some MUs its all you need sometimes). I prefer Shroud/Hexproof creatures for that purpose.

To answer the other questions;

-Decay will definitely find a home as a 2-4of in BUG Fit
-Birds is there for the blue mana against Merfolk and a T2 ramp in the absence of a sac outlet
-E Plague helps against the recurrence of goblins. Their ability to refuel makes sweepers less than ideal

@Tao,

Welcome back! I had completely forgotten about your Trinket Mage tech that you suggested at the begining of the thread. I think Trinket is BUG's Rector and I have been looking for a way to include an Academy Ruins engine in the deck. I am looking forward to finding a good Trinket package.

[Star|Scream]

Qweerios, still wondering what the birds does over hierarch or a mana elf besides block a delver or emrakul?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

They work with Engineered Plague on Human and they make black mana as opposed to Hierarchs ^^

[Qweerios]

It grants double black for a T2 Liliana

[litenkatt]

May I ask why faith's fetters over oblivion ring in rector version? fetters doesn't do shit against omniscience and elesh norn and probably other cards too that I can't think of right now.

And for that matter, as deed doesn't blow up planeswalkers it doesn't rly matter if u have o-ring or fetters on a walker

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Fetters can hit creatures with Shroud/Hexproof, like Thrun and hitting a walker with Fetters prevents them from dropping a second one.

[Arianrhod]

May I ask why faith's fetters over oblivion ring in rector version? fetters doesn't do shit against omniscience and elesh norn and probably other cards too that I can't think of right now.

And for that matter, as deed doesn't blow up planeswalkers it doesn't rly matter if u have o-ring or fetters on a walker

What BlackStar put, but a few more notes too:

-) If you have a heavy Show and Tell presence in your meta, O-Ring is better. Fetters is better against literally everything else.

-) 4 life is not insignificant, and that 4 life has saved my ass on more occasions than I really care to admit. There have been games vs RUG in particular where I'd fetch it to stick on a land just to gain the life....as they topdeck a bolt that would have been lethal next turn.

-) CMC 4 vs CMC 3 is a huge deal where Deed is concerned. 3 is a commonly used number (something something KotR), whereas 4 is almost never hit. Sure, Deed won't hit 'walkers, but it will hit the enchantment that you're locking them down with.

-) As BSD noted, it shuts down the walker in question basically permanently, because since it's still "in play," the offending deck would have to play a 2nd (to legend rule the first), and then a 3rd before actually representing the same threat. If you O-Ring it, they can just drop another copy, with the 3rd still in deck. Sure, you can kill your O-Ring then to legend rule them, but it makes you jump through another hoop...and who knows what damage the 2nd copy has done while in play.

-) A fringe benefit that people -always- forget about is that you can also use it to lock down offensive lands that we otherwise have virtually no way of interacting with (Vindicate). Turning off Maze of Ith, Academy Ruins, etc can be absolutely huge.

-) Lack of ability to respond. If you're up against Miracle Top, and you really, really need to shut down their Top for some strange reason, you can do that with Fetters, but you can't with O-Ring. If you Rector O-Ring, they can respond to the trigger. If you do Fetters, it comes in attached to the permanent: if they didn't respond to the Rector trigger, there's no way for them to respond at that point. No drawing off Top, no activating Ruins in response, no Bolting their Delver so you don't gain 4 life.

[Megadeus]

Fetter is actually surprisingly good.

I see what you guys are saying about engineered plague... How many do you think I should run in GB in the SB? Last time I played at my LGS I saw 2 or 3 Folk decks and a couple of goblins as well. So about 20% of my LGS meta. Also is siding them vs Maverick any good? Naming human kills of Hierarchs and Moms while shrinking Knight

[Star|Scream]

It grants double black for a T2 Liliana

okay got it.

[Qweerios]

EPlague on humans also directly turns Explorer into ramp.

As far as the Trinket package go, what other maindeck 1CMC artifacts are worth it besides Nihil Spellbomb, Top, and EE? So far I have, Executioner's Capsule and maybe Darksteel Citadel

[Tao]

EPlague on humans also directly turns Explorer into ramp.

As far as the Trinket package go, what other maindeck 1CMC artifacts are worth it besides Nihil Spellbomb, Top, and EE? So far I have, Executioner's Capsule and maybe Darksteel Citadel

None I think. My list is pretty good^^
I didn't include Capsule because there is not much it can shoot that Explosives can't and I really can't find any room in the list. I wouldn't fault you for playing it, tough. It can get Knight of the Reliquary if you don't have the time or mana for EE on 3 or a random fattie like Hero of Bladehold.

[Star|Scream]

None I think. My list is pretty good^^
I didn't include Capsule because there is not much it can shoot that Explosives can't and I really can't find any room in the list. I wouldn't fault you for playing it, tough. It can get Knight of the Reliquary if you don't have the time or mana for EE on 3 or a random fattie like Hero of Bladehold.

It can lie in wait against Emrakul. It can even be fetched by a trinket mage off of an SNT

[Qweerios]

It also has great synergy with Academy Ruins if you don't want to EE every turn.

@Tao,

How has Acidic Slime been performing? It looks much better than Wickerbough as far as GSZ is concerned and it's also a nice looper with Volrath Tower. Isn't it a bit pricy in terms of mana investment for the effect?

Here is my tentative Trinket Fit list:


Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Trinket Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Engineered Explosives

Lands (23)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Thoughtseize
4 Negate

[Claymore]

To take some tech from Death and Taxes, roll with Leonin Bola as a 1cc artifact to humiliate Show and Tell.

[Arianrhod]

If we're talking Trinket Mage (and ExCap/EE), there needs to be a Glissa, the Traitor IMO. She's a 1-card engine and she's almost playable just by herself as a 3/3, Zenithable Moat.

[Maverick777]

This is my list for rector fit

1x Starved Rusalka
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1x Moat
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Phyrexian Arena

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Vindicate

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower



//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Nether Void
1x Raking Canopy
1x Humility
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Aven Mindcensor
3x Extirpate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide

Thoughts concerns?? Credit goes to Kevin

[HoneyT]

Well like you said, it's Kevin's list. He's been the spearhead for the Rector version so I'd pretty much trust what he says. He's tested it extensively. Can't go wrong with a carbon copy of his list.

[.:saturno:.]

hi everyone, i'm playing BG fit
which are the best card VS S&T deck (omni/sneak and so on) in any colour version of fit.
now i'm playing 4 therapy and 3 tourach MD and 3/4 seize in side, but it's not decisive in this match.

in my test miracle seems 50/50 or favorable, if u play around jace and angels and if u see many discards.
vs goblin, i dont have never testing, on the paper the problem is if they start, on the play, with lackey but without innocent blood we cant do nothing.

this is the list that i'm playing now
15 creature
1 derange hermit
1 dryad arbor
2 witness
1 grave titan
2 ooze
1 thraghtusk
1 thrunn
4 explorer
1 wall of blossom (i dont like it so much)
1 wickerbough elder

spell 24
2 top
3 pernicius
2 dismember
1 go for the troat
2 liliana
4 therapy
4 zenith
3 tourach
3 pulse.

21 lands
4 bayou
8 basic lands
8 fetch
1 tower

[Tao]

If we're talking Trinket Mage (and ExCap/EE), there needs to be a Glissa, the Traitor IMO. She's a 1-card engine and she's almost playable just by herself as a 3/3, Zenithable Moat.

Glissa is very tempting. Good stats and synergy. If we play with her and Acidic Slime we should call the deck "Conley Woods". But she's also a 1-off that combos with another 1-off and dies to every removal in the format. Granted, you can tutor for both, but I have just very bad experiences with this type of cards. Not sure about her.




@Tao,

How has Acidic Slime been performing? It looks much better than Wickerbough as far as GSZ is concerned and it's also a nice looper with Volrath Tower. Isn't it a bit pricy in terms of mana investment for the effect?

Here is my tentative Trinket Fit list:


Acidic Slime is decent, I wouldn't cut it. I haven't regrown it with Stronghold yet, though. But Karakas/Clique, Snapcaster/Laboratory or Academy Ruins could ruin your day so I think destroying lands is more important than the Instant counter removal on Wickerbough. First thing to be sided out against RUG and the likes though.

For your list I wouldn't just cut cards without testing. Thoughtseizes curve nicely and play an important role in controlling the game. Maybe 2 but not less I think. The 1-off Vraska also has been good so far, no sign of being a trap. Her -3 ability is insane and the +1 makes her somewhat resilient. I also think a Damnation/Deed split is superior to Deed only for Gbu.

[Megadeus]

Played BG tonight. Didnt get much good testing in and didnt do very well sadly. 1-2.

G1: Tezzeret Control 2-1

Man this game it felt so good. I played as tight as I could and it was rewarded with a win. Just how this deck should. That is why I love this deck. Good play really rewards you. Game 3 he had 2 Tar Pits on board with a Baleful Strix and I had a Thrun and a Finks with a Pithing Needle naming Tezzeret and a top. I am at 3 life. eot I top. I draw a fetch. I top. Nothing. I crack the fetch, go to 2. Top. Nothing. I green sun for 0 fetching Dryad Arbor. I top. Find my only other Pithing Needle. Spin Top. Get needle name tar pit. Pulse the baleful Strix. Go on to win. Man I wish that this tight play wouldve continued to win me games.

G2: RB Standard Zombies 1-2

As it turns out, Legacy decks cant beat a good zombie curve! This guy ended up going undefeated lol. Liliana is very difficult for us to deal with. He ultimated me G1 and game me either my top and Thrun or my lands. Knowing I had Garruk on top I kept my lands and played Garruk. He flew over my head with aristocrat to win. Otherwise I just couldn't deal with Liliana. When someone else has it we cant win.

G3: Belcher 0-2

Yep. G1 he has T1 Belcher but I think I may have a shot with a liliana out because he is out of gas. He draw a lions eye. G2 I didnt side in my engineered plagues though I probably should have. Didnt really matter. He makes 16 goblins T1. Kills me T2 with the deal damage equal to # of goblins.

Afterwards I played against my buddy playing Maverick. Beat him 2-0! I really like the deck and will definitely play it again next week. Hopefully I will come back with a better result (and better match ups). Treetop Villages were pretty solid. Only screwed me G1 against Tez when it was my only land and he wasted it. Otherwise it was sweet having a creeping tar pit type of beater.

[Star|Scream]

Here is the BUG-fit that I've been testing.

Creatures 12

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Grave Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells 23

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Planeswalkers 3

1 Liliana Of The Veil
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands 23

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Wasteland/Dust Bowl

Sideboard 15

4 Negate
4 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb/Carpet/Meta


It's pretty close to Qweerios' list but with gifts and grave titan instead of many planeswalkers and primeval. Also it's 61 cards

Thoughts?

I'm thinking about changing Genesis to a recurring nightmare since they function similarly and I don't currently own a Genesis. If I did that I'd like to squeeze a sphinx of uthuun in there.

So far the tar pit has been good. It's a nice terminus hoser.

I haven't really tried dust bowl, but I don't think it'll replace wasteland since I'm not running primeval.

The BOP hasn't come up and is just basically testing at this point.

[Cire_dk]

@Star|Scream and Qweerios:

Is a third Bayou very important to this deck? I only own 2 and would rather not buy another one. What would you replace it with.

I like BUG lists without gifts because I feel I still cannot pick gift piles very well because of lack of experience. In your opinion does it matter much in strength to do, or do not play them in the BUG list?

[Star|Scream]

@Star|Scream and Qweerios:

Is a third Bayou very important to this deck? I only own 2 and would rather not buy another one. What would you replace it with.

I like BUG lists without gifts because I feel I still cannot pick gift piles very well because of lack of experience. In your opinion does it matter much in strength to do, or do not play them in the BUG list?

I am running the third bayou because I don't own 4 Misty Rainforest. I would run 4 misty rainforest or a volrath's stronghold. Unfortunately card availability is an issue for me. I do believe that 7 basics is the right number, and that 2 swamps are imperative to make sure you can cast Liliana off a veteran activation in a pinch.

I'm still on the gifts train for now even though Qweerios has left it. Gifts is never dead, while a 2nd planeswalker in your hand can be. A pile like witness, walker, walker, walker can be amazing. With abrupt decay, a pile like witness, decay, pulse, deed can guarantee we get removal in an emergency. That's my take on it anyway. Qweerios has much more experience with the deck so I'm sure he has a good counterpoint.

[Arianrhod]

I'd say that 7 is an acceptable minimum. I've been running 8 in Rector for a long while now, and that's been a fine number there. But Rector also has Sakuras that care about basics too, so meh. As for the 3rd bayou, I think that it's important, personally. Having a Bayou in the opening hand is very nice, and while the extra fetch is nice (shuffle for Top), I enjoy having more mana-producing lands so that Wasteland hurts less. Your mileage will vary, of course, and I think it's probably less important in G/B than in, say, Scapewish (where it's very important, as a Forest for Wood Elves that is not a "shot" for Valakut).

And Steve, there's one slight change to my list that I don't think you've got yet. I cut out the 1x Elspeth for 1x Maelstrom Pulse. Other than that, you're up to date with my list, still.

[somethingdotdotdot]

For the other gift bug-fit players--do you find gifts to be too slow? It has no board impact unless you have at least 6 mana out. It does set up a very oppressive decision for your opponent though.

[Star|Scream]

For the other gift bug-fit players--do you find gifts to be too slow? It has no board impact unless you have at least 6 mana out. It does set up a very oppressive decision for your opponent though.

It is very slow. But it is a late-game card. Also BUG-fit is very reactive. With Brainstorms, Negates, Gifts, and Abrupt decays all being instant there are a lot of things to do at end of turn. So you can keep your mana open and then just eot gifts if there is nothing that you needed to negate.

[Viridia]

Gifts is usually the follow up of a Deed blowout for me, wipe their board, Gifts and get a good board position.

[sumbahdy]

I Usually board out gifts come game 2 and 3 depending on my opponent. Against a control player, I find it too slow and usually gets sided out for Discard and Counters.

I based my list from Qweerios and frankly am happy with Gifts being in the MD. It gives you much flexibility with the recursion that BUG has (Recurring, Stronghold and Witness) and can set-up bombs with all the mana that you usually ramp into. Plus it let's you get away with one of's freeing more space for other bombs. Can't run more than 2 though since you wouldn't want multiple copies stuck in your hand. Too bad a single EOT Gifts cannot guarantee a win. And it actually gets trickier since you react to what's in the board, your hand and graveyard too.

@Starscream

How's the 1 of Walker package been? I read somewhere here that Gifts is used to guarantee that all the Walkers will go to your hand and nowhere else. Would you consider using 2 Jace, 1 Liliana and maybe the new BG walker come RTR?

[Qweerios]

Gifts is a strong card, there is no denying it. My issue with Gift is the following:

Do I need it to win?

Then again, a lot of playing magic has to do with having fun and stimulating your mind, and Gifts does just that. That's a good enough reason to play it IMO. It will be extremely rewarding when it is successful and it makes you double in effort when it isn't. In my quest to finding the most stable, redundant, and powerful Nic Fit deck, however, I don't think Gifts is ideal in a competitive Legacy environment.

Gifts is slow. It is Jace-slow, but it is also Jace-strong. It has different strengths, and different weaknesses.

To answer the question about Bayous, no you don't need three. I have a beautiful playset of Earl Grant Bayous and I rarely play more than two. A 2/2/1 split of Duals alongside 7 Basics is very solid for Nic Fit. Fetches are superior to Duals in Nic Fit because you will always have Basics available and the right combination of Fetches in the early stages often allows you to go all basics for the first 2-4 turns. Constructing your manabase in the first turns is one of the most crucial things against any deck packing a playset of Wastelands and/or looking to Daze/Pierce your lifelines.

On a different note, I have tested Trinket Mage and have liked it. I don't think it is the best thing because it takes up a lot of deck space and doesn't bring anything new to the deck. What it does, however, is give it more consistency, and that's something to value. It is definitely fun to play, but I think we're not taking enough from of a 1CMC artifact toolbox.

PS: Oh yeah, Glissa blows...

[Nelis]

I've inspired two local players to take up Nic-Fit. One plays BG, the other the Gifts version. I played against the Gifts one the other day and was shocked how slow it plays. I had the feeling you're more busy doing strange things trying to win instead of just winning. That my opponent having just started playing the deck could be a factor here, but still. I don't think you need it to win but if you like having a hard time by all means play it. I wouldn't. :wink: It's definately not an easy deck to play and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but really good players.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm in love with Genesis+Gigapede+Eternal Witness pile for Intuition. In fact, I might throw in some random spell and use this as my goto Gifts Ungiven package.

EDIT: Nevermind; Genesis and Gigapede in the hand really, really sucks >_< Still good with Intuition though

[Vicar in a tutu]

Is it worth having Angel of Despair in the sideboard vs. Show and Tell? I play GB Nic Fit and there is quite a bit of Show and Tell in my local meta. This matchup is very poor, but having 3x Angel of Despair in the Sideboard would maybe make it a bit easier. At the last tournament 10 people showed up and there were 3 Show and Tell-decks: Sneak Attack, Omniscience and Hive Mind.

[Arianrhod]

Bottoms-up:

Vicar -- this isn't a horrible idea. If not for the Sneak player I'd say just run Woodfall Primus instead, because that takes out both of the offending enchantments while actually being, you know, castable/Zenithable. Sneak makes that a little more awkward, though. G/B unfortunately has much fewer ways to defend itself vs Show and Tell (in my opinion), so running some off-color options is probably necessary, unfortunately. Sneak might get wise to you and opt to Sneak/Breach instead of Show, but a lot of Show players are fucking retarded when it comes to Nic Fit and just Show whenever they feel like it postboard, regardless of what we might do to their asshole. Unlike Maverick, we can actually run cards that are not named Karakas that piss them off. OmniTell and Hive Mind are both pretty much locked into Showing, though.

Depending on what the rest of your meta is, you might want to switch to a BUG build, as BUG has additional discard and can also fight them on the stack. Also, Baleful Strix really, really infuriates Emrakul if you have more than 6 permanents. That sounds horrible, I know, but it's really far from impossible for Nic Fit to recover after soaking an Emrakul hit -- I've done it plenty of times. If the Show decks were more Emrakul-based I'd recommend Rector, but Rector lacks a bit vs Hive Mind, whereas BUG is just solidly good vs all of them. Food for thought.

ELC -- Why jump through the extra hoop? You can just Gifts for Genesis + E.Wit and entomb both of them. Alternatively, you could start experimenting with Jarad's Orders. Someone's going to have to sooner or later -- if there's a deck in legacy that wants it, we're it. I know that just because I think it's worse than Gifts doesn't mean it is, and I'll at least be fiddling around with it.

Nelis -- Sweet =) The BUG versions are definitely more durdly-seeming than the other splashes. I think some of that is just because of the nature of blue...it tends to durdle around until it kills you.

Gifts in general -- I suspect that at some point in the next year or two, Wizards will either print something that enables a degenerate combo-win pile in legacy, or it already exists somewhere and we'll discover it ourselves. Probably not something Time Vault - Voltaic Key - Yawgmoth's Will - Regrowth degenerate, but something that allows you to just Gifts and win. Furthermore, I suspect that the lack of a "winning" Gifts pile is what's keeping Gifts down in general as compared to the other versions. Gifts should be BUG's version of Rector/Scapeshift -- aka, when you resolve it, you win. It just isn't there right now. I mean yeah, it's a good card and it does a lot of good work...but it doesn't actively win the game.

And for people who will say that Rector doesn't win the game either, trust me, it does. It's not as obvious about it as Scapewish, but the Rector build is built around inevitability. Either you're out-CAing them with Arena, unleashing a devastating board wipe, locking them out of combat, or setting up Nightmare loops. It's not as simple as "Rector -> scoop," but it may as well be.

But yeah, that aside....aside, I think that's what Gifts is missing. I actually entertained the idea of making the pile of: Thopter Foundry - Sword of the Meek - Academy Ruins - Life from the Loam once upon a time, because technically it IS a combo that we can assemble with one Gifts. I feel like there has to be something better, but maybe it's like Rector and the inevitability is all it needs.

Trinket Mage -- I feel like, for blue versions, it could theoretically reduce the number of Tops you need in your deck to 1, as the first Trinket Mage would almost certainly grab a Top unless you really needed something else. However, I'm not sure that 3U for a 2/2 and a Top is better than just 1 for a Top, even recognizing that you might draw extras. The unfortunate thing about Trinket Mage is that we can't take advantage of most of its targets that "stick around," like Pithing Needle, Basilisk Collar, etc, due to Deed. We pretty much have to stick to Spellbomb-like cards...we can't even use him as a mana-fixer because the artifact lands (nee Citadel) all die to Deed as well. So awkward.

[Star|Scream]

I'm in love with Genesis+Gigapede+Eternal Witness pile for Intuition. In fact, I might throw in some random spell and use this as my goto Gifts Ungiven package.

EDIT: Nevermind; Genesis and Gigapede in the hand really, really sucks >_< Still good with Intuition though

Try therapy instead of gigapede to make sure what you want in the graveyard goes to the graveyard.

@Qweerios: I tried your BUG list with 2 abrupt decay in the place of one pulse and 1 thing I can't remember. So 2 Jace, 2 Lili, 1 Garruk, 2 AD. Something feels missing... I can't put my finger on it, but I'm thinking it's the lack of drawing through your deck/card advantage that coiling oracle/strix and a sphinx give. I think that having carpet of flowers in the sideboard with oracles in the main may be better than just having birds in the main.

sumbahdy: having 2/3 planeswalkers on the battlefield at the same time is awesome. They each work together to protect the other one. But getting there with gifts doesn't always happen. A lot of times I have to use gifts to get myself out of jams since we apply 0 pressure. So it usually gets me removal and deeds. I don't know if not using gifts is better than using it, but as above I am trying the deck without it as well.

[BlackMetalSheep]

Hi guys, I'm testing Garruk, Primal Hunter in BUG version too, but the GGG sometimes are hard to have, so i'm trying Garruk Relentless or maybe after RTR is Vraska the go-to-girl as fifth planeswalker (i already play 2 Jace and 2 Liliana)?? ;)

[Megadeus]

Would it be possible to run a BUG Fit with just 1 Trop? I dont think I will be playing Jace without 2 duals. I think I would like to attempt a Shardless version. Mana base would look something like:

1 Trop
2 Bayou
1 USea
4 Misty
4 Verdant
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Tar Pit
1 Volraths Stronghold

Also No forces... What would be a reasonable replacement? Or is it just un playable without force?

[AmishLuvah]

I feel like that without Forces you'd just me "out countered" by the person that has them, because you know their also playing Daze and such as well.

[Megadeus]

I mean you really dont care about counters in this deck. You like the fact that are Hymning themselves to counter something you can just do next turn.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Would it be possible to run a BUG Fit with just 1 Trop?

I don't think so. But you might manage it if you don't focus so much on the blue.




Also No forces... What would be a reasonable replacement? Or is it just un playable without force?

I think at that point I'd just give up on the typical blue gameplan and use blue purely for utility (Brainstorm and Intuition) instead. Up your redundancy (e.g. Gigapede & company), and coast on the assumption that you've got the full counter suite while enjoying the greater consistency offered by a minimal blue splash and the heavy (more ordinary) focus on beatz and control.

[Megadeus]

Did I specify that I want to run the shardless BUG deck? I feel like I could depend less on forces.

3 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage

I apologize for it being a bit out of order.

[HoneyT]

I think the biggest reason to play Shardless is to increase the blue count for Force of Will. Otherwise I would MUCH rather run Green Sun's Zenith for consistency and a toolbox.

[Megadeus]

I think the biggest reason to play Shardless is to increase the blue count for Force of Will. Otherwise I would MUCH rather run Green Sun's Zenith for consistency and a toolbox.

This is true. Shardless is just so fun!! :( You are probably right though...

[HoneyT]

I agree! The card itself is awesome. I'm actually developing a deck that utilizes him. I plan on starting a thread for it within the next few days. But like I said, without Forces, I don't think that's the shell for him.

[Megadeus]

Like a Shardless BUG deck? With like Hymns and stuff? As I have been testing, it seems to lack ways to kill people... 1/1's and 2/2's dont seem to cut it for more... And everything it plays dies to deed :(

[HoneyT]

@Megadeus:

Oddly enough it is BUG colored, but very different from that deck. When I get some time, I'll start a new thread for it. We don't need to derail this one any longer.

@Angel of Despair:

I don't really like it that much unless you're playing GBW. You can actually cast it then. It made more sense for the Goblins player in Atlanta to play it because red lacks real disruption for that combo. We do not. Between tons of discard, Extirpate, and extraction effects that are good in other matchups, I don't feel like it's worth taking up that many slots to a card we can't cast if necessary for just one deck.

@Trinket Mage:

Pretty much echoing everything Arianrhod said. The blue splash should be doing more powerful things. Personally I think something similar to Qweerios' build is almost ideal for the BUG versions. Pretty much just for Jace, Brainstorm, and Negate out of the board.

[Star|Scream]

Dear lord... a RUG delver player tried to shut off my Sphinx of Uthuun with a Pithing Needle.

SMH

Friends don't let friends playtest on MWS

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What are y'all's thoughts on Fleshbag Marauder with Genesis Engines? Seems like an easy way to deal with the big bad legends.

Also, would any of you recommend Phyrexian Revoker when combined with a recursive engine? Revoker seems like it could hose Jace and CounterTop to a fair extent.

[Megadeus]

I had very good success with Pithing Needle this past week. Shut down tez, and its great vs lands that we cant really deal with.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

What are y'all's thoughts on Fleshbag Marauder with Genesis Engines? Seems like an easy way to deal with the big bad legends.


It's really, really useful in this metagame, what with Omniscience kicking around and Griselbrand doing its thing. I used to run Shriekmaw, but I've converted to Marauder for the time being. Crucially, Marauder is an appropriate target for Unearth, which allows you to do some rather broken things with Intuition (in BUG) and Eternal Witness.



Also, would any of you recommend Phyrexian Revoker when combined with a recursive engine? Revoker seems like it could hose Jace and CounterTop to a fair extent.

Like Megadeus, I've been having a lot of success with Pithing Needle, so some sort of similar effect is definitely desirable. While recurring Revoker is great in principle, its vulnerability to removal and burn (including Abrupt Decay now) makes it a less interesting proposition for me, since I need it to stick against planeswalkers. Plus, being able to cast a Needle T1 is quite nice. With Witness, you can still recur broken Needles if need be.

[kabards]

Does anyone has suggestion about better sideboard against SnT Varians (Omni-Tell / Sneaky Show deck) and agains TES/Ant/Belcher Variants? By the way im running Punishing Nic-Fit deck.

[Maverick777]

I was thinking about running armada wurm in rector fit! Opinions?!

[Megadeus]

Does anyone has suggestion about better sideboard against SnT Varians (Omni-Tell / Sneaky Show deck) and agains TES/Ant/Belcher Variants? By the way im running Punishing Nic-Fit deck.

Its touch and really it just get good therapies and at eat their hand with liliana. That seems to do well enough most of the time. Otherwise if it is really heavy in your meta id play Mindbreak Trap.

[slikwilly]

I was thinking about running armada wurm in rector fit! Opinions?!

Do you run Moat? If yes, I think Armada Wurm is poor. If not then it seems reasonable to try.

[TheArchitect]

I think Armada Wurm is better than grave titan in GBW "rock-ish" nic fit. But if you are running rector and moat you shouldn't use him.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Does anyone has suggestion about better sideboard against SnT Varians (Omni-Tell / Sneaky Show deck) and agains TES/Ant/Belcher Variants? By the way im running Punishing Nic-Fit deck.

Does Punishing Fire Fit have Primeval and/or other land search? If so, a singleton Karakas takes care more of Emrakul (either sneaky or showy). Pithing Needle shutdown Sneak Attack, and Shriekmaw can be used to destroy Emrakul outright.

Also, playing game 2 against SnT, if you whiff on a Cabal Therapy and you know an Emrakul punch is coming, play but don't sac Veteran Explorers so your manabase isn't completely destroyed.

EDIT: Also also, anyone have any preferences on which Witness Engine is the best? Recurring Nightmare seems like the most explosive yet most vulnerable, Stronghold Tower is just the opposite (safe yet slow), and Genesis is right there in the middle.

[kabards]

Does Punishing Fire Fit have Primeval and/or other land search? If so, a singleton Karakas takes care more of Emrakul (either sneaky or showy). Pithing Needle shutdown Sneak Attack, and Shriekmaw can be used to destroy Emrakul outright.


yep im running a Primeval Titan no other land search. Does Pithing Needle very effective sideboard in Sneak and Show Deck? How about vs Omni-Tel? is our only main solution is just to disrupt early?

[unemployer]

^^ Wow dude! I thought you removed that during our last conversation? Involving 1 Karakas for Emrakul is not a good addition since we use RGB. Shriekmaw is nice but usually when Omni-Shows plays Show and Tell, they play Omniscience first to get an extra turn from Emrakul. Playing a lone Karakas might be too late since they play it again

Anyway, my SB now for this build are: - You might want to include Hymns if you want :laugh:
3 Duress
2 Hymn
3 Extirpate
2 Surgical
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Damnation
1 Tsunami

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I thought we were talking bout Sneak Show not OmniTell. In that case disrupting is your only way to prevent an omniscient emrakul, though in this instance Krosan Grip might be good as additional disruption.

[kabards]

I thought we were talking bout Sneak Show not OmniTell. In that case disrupting is your only way to prevent an omniscient emrakul, though in this instance Krosan Grip might be good as additional disruption.
after Omniscience is put via show and tell do i have the priority to Grip that enchantment before he/she can cast his spell freely?

[somethingdotdotdot]

Not unless you put a card in that has a triggered ability when it etb. Otherwise the stack is empty and the omniscience player has priority to play something before you get a chance to grip.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ kabards and somethingdotdotdot: That's why I said it might be good as additional disruption: I'm still unfamiliar with how priority works in any TCG.

Cheatyface.dec definitely seems like an unwinnable matchup (2-8 to 0-10) even post board.

[Megadeus]

It is definitely a difficult match up. You need to play tight, and even then you may not win. pre board is porbably un winnable. Post board I think proactive disruption is best. K-Grip just does not seem that good vs them. I guess we do have a lot of ETB effects that can give us the ability to grip omni, but even then it is very situational

[CRich3]

Has anyone actually have any luck with Carpet of Flowers? I just cut mine from the sideboard because I usually never need it. It has only been useful for me against RUG and Merfolk which I already do great against pre-board. Right now my SB is mostly hate for Show and Tell decks and Miracles.

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Extirpate
2x Memorized
2x Curse of Death's Hold (Goblins)
1x Faith Fetters
2x Angel of Despair
2x Pithing Needle (still need to test)

Also how many sac outlets should I be running? I am running GBW and most of the time I am waiting for a sac outlet.

Also it seems like Green Sun's isn't as power in the Rector version, at least not for me. I am thinking of putting in some Diabolic Intent instead since I need more sac outlets. Probably just do a 1 for 1 swap.

Last but not least:
Swords to Plowshares vs Innocent Blood?

[kabards]

Has anyone actually have any luck with Carpet of Flowers? I just cut mine from the sideboard because I usually never need it. It has only been useful for me against RUG and Merfolk which I already do great against pre-board. Right now my SB is mostly hate for Show and Tell decks and Miracles.

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Extirpate
2x Memorized
2x Curse of Death's Hold (Goblins)
1x Faith Fetters
2x Angel of Despair
2x Pithing Needle (still need to test)

Also how many sac outlets should I be running? I am running GBW and most of the time I am waiting for a sac outlet.

Also it seems like Green Sun's isn't as power in the Rector version, at least not for me. I am thinking of putting in some Diabolic Intent instead since I need more sac outlets. Probably just do a 1 for 1 swap.

Last but not least:
Swords to Plowshares vs Innocent Blood?

Are you running B/G/W Nic Fit?

[Qweerios]

The best thing you can do against OmniTell is 4 x Angels of Despair/Oblivion Ring in the SB. It doesn't matter if it is on or off color, Omniscience and Show n Tell are unfair cards that require very specific hate. You don't need blue to play Mindbreak Trap in your SB, the same applies to Angel and Ring in a SnT infested meta.

Discard spells will not make-or-break the unfair matchups, they only grant additional turns for your non-existant threats to take away 20 life points. If you want to have a successful prison plan against those decks, I suggest Extirpate along with heavy spot discard.

@CRich3,

IB is always better than StP in Nic Fit IMO, especialy with Rector.

[slikwilly]

Also how many sac outlets should I be running? I am running GBW and most of the time I am waiting for a sac outlet.

Also it seems like Green Sun's isn't as power in the Rector version, at least not for me. I am thinking of putting in some Diabolic Intent instead since I need more sac outlets. Probably just do a 1 for 1 swap.

How many sac outlets are you running? I had the same problem a while back. Adding Diabolic Intent helped a lot both as a sac outlet and as a way to find answers. Currently I run:

1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Diabolic Intent
2x Phyrexian Tower
4x Cabal Therapy

As for Zenith, I am running 3x Zenith and 1x Eladamri's Call. I like the call for a couple reasons: 1) it's instant. 2) it can find a non-green creature. I'm only running one Baneslayer; I think others like 2, so I consider the Call a psuedo-Baneslayer much of the time. I'm never sad to see it and it's great w/ Witness.

[CRich3]

How many sac outlets are you running? I had the same problem a while back. Adding Diabolic Intent helped a lot both as a sac outlet and as a way to find answers. Currently I run:

1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Diabolic Intent
2x Phyrexian Tower
4x Cabal Therapy

As for Zenith, I am running 3x Zenith and 1x Eladamri's Call. I like the call for a couple reasons: 1) it's instant. 2) it can find a non-green creature. I'm only running one Baneslayer; I think others like 2, so I consider the Call a psuedo-Baneslayer much of the time. I'm never sad to see it and it's great w/ Witness.

I am running the exact same minus the Intent (yet).

@kabards yes I am running GBW Nic Fit.

[Megadeus]

Carpet is great against control, when your explorers are just bad for rampiong them. That is my main use for them.

[slikwilly]

I am running the exact same minus the Intent (yet).

Forgot to include Starved Rusalka. The effect is pretty poor, but it's cheap and zenithable.

[Claymore]

Another option for vs Sneak Show is to use the sideboard for transformational into the traditional Rock, where you throw in some discard to buy additional turns then use Thalia as a tax (buy even more turns and negate Omniscience), Teeg back up, with KotR functioning as a fast clock with the ability to fetch up the miser Karakas/Maze of Ith.

That's the general strategy of Maverick/traditional Rock, as seen at the SCG Minneapolis finals of Rock vs OmniShow - http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_kyle_olson_vs_troy_thom.html

I haven't tried it, but it sounds pretty saucy to me...much better than relying on having hate in hand when the opponent goes to Show and Tell, which in my playtesting is not all that great.

Obviously you have to do stuff like take out Explorers, but I may test this out later.

[Arianrhod]

Top 8'd all three prereleases this weekend. The important part: Midnight Friday, I'd snap-pre-regged for Golgari because I'm a hardcore G/B player (not just in legacy, I'm afraid). So I pick up my guild box, go and sit down and wait sleepily for them to say that we can open. I cracked the box, and open the following:

Guild pack: Abrupt Decay
Pack 1: Foil Abrupt Decay

I was a very, very happy person.

Anyway. I have 3 Decays after the weekend and will likely get my 4th out of boxes this weekend upcoming...as well as my 2nd Vraska (pulled one on Sunday). So I'll have ample amounts of the new stuff to really start messing around with for the BUG version, which is the version I still believe benefits far and away the most from Vraska and Decay.

I only actually got to play Vraska twice all day Sunday, across 6 rounds. The latter of these two appearances was completely meaningless, because she came down, Pulsed a blocker and I swung in for lethal. The first, however, she impressed me a bit more. She took out his 3/3 haste/lifelink puppy, and I left a dude back to protect her just in case. He passed without doing anything, I +1'd her, swung, he played the Carnival Hellsteed, tanked, and swung at me instead of killing Vraska. Next turn Vraska just pulsed his Hellsteed....so by not killing Vraska, he actually didn't save himself any value (Vraska lived at 1...which means I may have missed a turn of +1ing, not sure).

Tl;dr, the one time I actually got to really use her, she impressed me.

Now, for comments:

Rusalka <3

Megadeus is correct regarding Carpet of Flowers. Carpet and Explorer together make RUG impossible to lose as opposed to just a "favorable matchup." However, Carpet is far and away at its best in matchups like High Tide, Show and Tell, and Miracles -- the first two, you need every bit of mana you can get to keep up your barrage of hatred while they struggle to dig out (note that unless you're running Tsunami, boarding out 3 Explorers for 3 Carpets is correct vs High Tide). Show and Tell you don't care...you need as much acceleration as you can get to try to keep up with their Sol lands and Petals.

Miracles is far and away the most important of these cases, though...Stoneblade as well to a lesser extent. You really don't want to set off an Explorer vs these decks if you can help it. But without Explorer, our deck looks a lot more durdly. Carpet fixes this problem (also why Rector runs Sakura-Tribe Elders as a backup ramp source, Wood Elves in Scapewish, Coiling Oracle in BUG, etc). IMO, if you don't have Carpet in your board, you're going to struggle an awful lot vs Miracles, and that's the biggest single reason to run it at the moment (RUG being a close 2nd and S/T at 3rd). And yeah, I'll say again that you don't NEED it vs RUG...it's still a positive matchup. But if the best/most popular deck in the room is a literal bye for you, that's a pretty good place to be.

@CRich -- do you have Moat? If so, you don't really need the Curse of Death's Holds. Moat just kolds Goblins unless they're splashing green for Grip (and even then, they have to dig for it).

My Rector list runs the following as sac outlets:

4x Therapy
2x Tower
1x Intent
1x Rusalka (ergo, 4x Rusalka courtesy of 3 GSZ)
1x Nightmare

If you really need to crack Rector, Vindicating or Pulsing her is acceptable as well (+2). That gives me 14 effective sac outlets. I can't imagine needing any more than that. I used to have some problems with that as well, but once I added the Rusalka and the Intent, they went away. Rusalka was the big breakthrough, honestly. Being able to sacrifice something for 1GG is pretty sweet. Unlike Therapy/Nightmare/Intent, it also works well as Swords protection, since you can use it at instant speed.

Inquisitions should be Thoughtseizes if you're worried about Show and Tell, 100%. You don't care about lifeloss vs them, and if they have the awkward hand of like lands, cantrips, Omniscience, and Emrakul/Griselbrand (which they actually seem to keep fairly frequently), you want to be able to take Omniscience (ideally) or their creature (2nd ideally), so that you can Extirpate that bullshit and be done with it. Inquisition only really hits Show and Tell in that matchup. As for Miracles, Inquisition hits more, but again, you don't really care about your life total in that matchup.

---------------------

It's been a while since I've actually posted any lists or reports or anything. I'll be going to Mythic on Saturday, so hopefully I'll have some stuff for you guys then.

[litenkatt]

It's been a while since I've actually posted any lists or reports or anything. I'll be going to Mythic on Saturday, so hopefully I'll have some stuff for you guys then.

are you going with rector list?

[guelahpapyrus]

On the subject of Carpet of Flowers,

I haven't loved it except for the Miracles matchup. It gets killed by Deed so often =(. I've been considering taking it out of my SB because I think Abrupt Decay is going to poop on Counterbalance and the like when the metagame shifts.

The RUG matchup is already so good and SnT matchup is already so bad. I'm not relying on Carpet for SnT. I'd rather board in 4 Durress and 3 or 4 Extirpate/Surgical.

But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

@Arianarhood: You bastard. I got Golgari as well and I pulled 3 Selesnya bombs and 1 copy of that enchantment that lets you tap a land and draw a card. Abrupt Decay, oh how I would loathe spending $20 for a copy.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Arianrhod, what's your current bug list look like now?

[guelahpapyrus]

Those of you playing GBW Rock style, has anyone else done much testing with Armada Wurm?

I've only had a chance to use him once and normally I find myself wanting Sigarda/Thrun/Thragtusk to close out the deal.

On paper Armada Wurm looks perfect to fill that Primeval/Grave Titan slot, but in practice I find I'm just not using him very much.

Anyone with an opinion?

[Arianrhod]

@Litenkatt -- I'm actually going to be running Scapewish, while Steve (Maverick777) borrows my Rector list. He's going to be taking it to SCG Providence, which I regrettably cannot attend. So he's gonna go kick ass with it instead. If I feel spicy I might run BUG instead of Scapewish, but we'll see how I feel the morning of. I really want to top 8 this one so I can bring home a pair of Goyfs...because I've got a free Legacy at my local on Sunday that I want to play Shardless BUG at (for no other reason than that it's something different and looks fun as hell). I also currently own 0 Goyfs, although I can borrow two from a friend (ergo, I need to win 2)

@Papyrus (Resisting the urge to say G-pap :P) -- It does die to Deed a lot, and honestly, it can be a pretty skill-instensive decision sometimes when to blow Deed vs when you need to keep your Carpet around. More usually, though, Carpet accels you to the point where you don't care if it dies.

IMO, for as long as Legacy is having a love affair with soft counters like Spell Pierce and Daze, Carpet of Flowers will continue to be an allstar. It completely negates those cards, for free every turn. Also, don't forget that you can use it as a green Dark Ritual -- play it main phase 1, then declare attacks. At the beginning of main phase 2, Carpet of Flowers will trigger. I've used this trick many, many times to cheat out things that I otherwise couldn't cast.

Duress and Extirpate are fine cards against Show and Tell, but I would much rather accelerate into a faster Cranial Extraction in the matchup. I'll just cite personal preference here and move on, as I don't think that one option is strictly better than the other. There are hands that Duress + Extirpate will just slaughter, and there are hands that Cranial Extraction will beat that Duress wouldn't do anything to. I probably lean harder on Therapy than I really should, if I'm being honest, which is probably a shortcoming as a player. At the same time, Nic Fit is a ramp/control deck with a combo finish (some versions). We get to use some horrifically powerful cards that nobody else touches because of mana cost, and a lot of times, people have no idea how to play around those cards. Show and Tell players have to know how to deal with Thoughtseize, because Esperblade is a thing. They don't, however, have any idea how to deal with a resolved Cranial Extraction.

There are certainly arguments on the Duress side of things, but I'll stick with my Carpets for now. Disclaimer: I do believe that the time is coming in the meta where Carpet will get pushed out, temporarily at least. I see RUG take a nosedive in popularity soon thanks to Supreme Verdict. Wrath of God hasn't been playable in a long time because it always just gets Dazed or Pierced. But now that you can Wrath and give no fucks, players and decks both are going to have to accept the fact that Wrath of God is a card, and respect it. IMO, RUG loses the most both from Verdict existing, -and- because Verdict will likely cause a meta shift towards decks that are inherently hostile to RUG in the first place. Once this happens, I will be comfortable adopting other sideboard options in place of Carpet. Until then, I'll continue to enjoy my byes.

While we're talking limited, too, my deck was Sunday was sickkkkkk. It was this awesome Golgari/Selesnya hybrid. Like, I opened a Decay and a Vraska for Golgari, and then the land that makes an 8/8 and the enchantment that Populates on upkeep for free every turn. Deck was ridiculous. I only lost one match....my deck durdled g1, I slaughtered him g2, and then g3 he had t4 Rakdos into t5 Carnival Hellsteed + like 2 other creatures. Sooooo awkward.

As for Armada Wurm, I think he replaces Grave Titan in GBW Rock-style, and does nothing else. You probably get to cut Fierce Empath if you were running it, because you have a really solid Zenithable finisher. That leaves Sun Titan dangling, but you can probably find him with Tops + shuffles by the time you need him, or you can run a Call or an Intent to tutor him up.

@Something... -- I'll post it up sometime this afternoon. I actually need to tinker with it a bit before posting, as it's not quite where I want it to be yet. Then Saturday night once I'm back from Mythic I'll try to get up a tournament report complete with the latest lists for Scapewish and Rector.

[guelahpapyrus]

@Arianarhood

I neglected to mention that I also board in 2x Memoricide/Cranial split against SnT. It's still not a great matchup but I see what you're getting at with Carpet of Flowers making Mem/Cran that much better in SnT. I'll have to try it out instead of relying on Vet/Cabal like I have been.

I never ran Sun Titan to begin with. I played GB until Sigarda came out. Now that I'm playing GBW, I've never found myself needing the extra recurrance, between two Eternal Witnesses, Swords, Abrupt Decay, and Pulse.

If Sun Titan had green in it, I'd think about throwing it into Armada Wurm's slot to get another utility / beatstick but I'm not sure if I'd run it with my list because I'd have to put in a Fierce Empath.

[Arianrhod]

Here's my starting point for BUG. Keep in mind that this is rough and untested:

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Coiling Oracle
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thragtusk
1x Sphinx of Uthuun

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Vraska the Unseen
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter

4x Pernicious Deed
1x Future Sight
1x Recurring Nightmare

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell

2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Maelstrom Pulse

1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs

//SB
4x Flusterstorm
3x Sower of Temptation
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
2x Infest
2x Kitchen Finks


I'm also toying with the idea of trying to abuse Merchant Scroll, since it's very underplayed IMO. I mean, it's good enough to be restricted in vintage, so it seems like it should be better in legacy. Using Scoll would let us run 1 Counterspell, 1 Gifts, 8 Brainstorms, etc. Sphinx's Revelation is a particularly interesting example, although the W in its cost would probably be annoying. It's just an idea.

Speaking of ideas, another one I had for BUG was running baby [cards]Jace Beleren[/b]. If you drop baby Jace on t2 after an Explorer/Therapy, you're going to be stupidly far ahead, and it's a preemptive answer to Mind-Sculptor. I dunno. It's a thought that I'll probably experiment with at some point.

[Tao]

Vintage has Ancestral so that comparison is flawed. Anyway. I think you should give the Trinket Mage toolbox a try. It makes it so that Primeval Titan becomes a relevant finisher by grabbing Ruins/Stronghold that you can also GSZ for (unlike Sphinx).
If you insist on not giving it a shot and you don't play GSZ there is absolutely no reason to run anything less than 4 Shardless Agents.

[Viridia]

I really love Shardless Agent, but as my BUG list is now, i wouldn't know how to fit him in, so i'm not sure if he needs to be in every non-GSZ BUG list.

[Arianrhod]

I have a hard time justifying Green Sun in BUG versions because BUG tends to run dramatically fewer creatures (or Green creatures, at least) than other versions. I do love me some Trinket Mage, but I feel like there's just no room. By the time you're done with the core of Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Brainstorm, Top, there's so little flex room left. Space is just a huge problem for the BUG versions, I feel.

I know that I want to abuse the everloving hell out of Future Sight, and I know that the BUG version theoretically should be the combo-killer out of the family, due to things like Flusterstorm and Sower of Temptation. Like I said, this list is a very rough starting point, and will probably change a lot before I'm actually happy with it.

Vintage does have Ancestral, I fully grant that. But Scroll is still a 2-drop tutor for any blue instant. I mean, sure, it's a little restrictive, but it's a hell of a powerful tutor -- especially when you consider some of the cards that are blue and instant. I'm certainly not saying that it's the best option, but it's worthy of exploration, I feel.

[Qweerios]

My BUG list plays 4 GSZ, a Trinket package, and 5 PWs. I have foregone Pulses/Decays because, well, I can just nuke everything, all the time...


Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Trinket Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Executioner's Capsule

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
4 Thoughtseize
4 Negate


If I were to include a "Vindicate" affect to this list, I would do so in the form of a singleton Vraska. Perhaps -1 Liliana, +1 Vraska.

Also, I am really glad that Tao emerged from the deep with his Trinket package, it's very smooth. That singleton Slime is also a life-saver and reminds me of when I played GBW Nic Fit when I had Volrath Tower, Witness, and Vindicate online. Such a deadly looper and nifty surprise on SnT -> Omniscience.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vraska, the Unseen
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Cabal Therapy Flashback + Surgical Extraction Phyrexian Manacost = Munchkin-Memoricide.

[slikwilly]

Top 8'd all three prereleases this weekend. The important part: Midnight Friday, I'd snap-pre-regged for Golgari because I'm a hardcore G/B player (not just in legacy, I'm afraid). So I pick up my guild box, go and sit down and wait sleepily for them to say that we can open. I cracked the box, and open the following:

Guild pack: Abrupt Decay
Pack 1: Foil Abrupt Decay

I was a very, very happy person.

I am jealous though I did manage to crack a single Abrupt Decay in my one and only prerelease. I then proceeded to take a decent pool and build a terrible deck out of it. :)


If you really need to crack Rector, Vindicating or Pulsing her is acceptable as well (+2).

At SCG Madison I played the Legacy challenge on Saturday. At the time I was running Deadguy and ran into a Nic Fit player (who I now know to be jbone). He played an Explorer, I put him on Nic Fit and think to myself, "Great. I've got like 3 basics, he's got a bunch of bombs to ramp in to." I play out a Bitterblossom, he plays out a second Explorer. At this point I figure I can just fly over him, but I better do it fast before bombs start dropping so I play a second Bitterblossom.

You can see where this is going. He then proceeds to Pulse my Bitterblossoms. Whoops. Hilarity ensues if you are jbone as he goes on to crush me.

After the game he told me he'd planned on Pulsing the Explorers on his turn. So yeah, Pulsing/Vindicating your dudes? Perfectly okay. So is punishing people who foolishly play out cards :)

[slikwilly]

I see RUG take a nosedive in popularity soon thanks to Supreme Verdict. Wrath of God hasn't been playable in a long time because it always just gets Dazed or Pierced. But now that you can Wrath and give no fucks, players and decks both are going to have to accept the fact that Wrath of God is a card, and respect it. IMO, RUG loses the most both from Verdict existing, -and- because Verdict will likely cause a meta shift towards decks that are inherently hostile to RUG in the first place.

Isn't that a meta shift that's a bit bad for us? Verdict pushes down Merfolk and RUG which are decks we can deal with handily. Something has to fill that void and it probably isn't Miracles because of Abrupt Decay. Am I missing something or is Goblins looking pretty good? Sure both Decay and Verdict hit them, but they manage pretty good CA through Ringleader and Krenko to fight through wipes.

[slikwilly]

1 Birds of Paradise


BoP is pretty bad for us. Deed hoses it and it stinks w/o an equipment to slap on it in the mid- to late-game. There are any number of alternative ramp sources which are all better for us that Arianrhod spelled out earlier today since they net a land (or card).

[Qweerios]

Took another first place with BUG Fit. The list I used is posted above.

1-1-1 vs. OmniTell (we timed but I had it in the bag)

Lost G1 but dominated the following games. Negates and Thoughtseizes allows me to set up a lock on the game (a combination of Pithing + Capsule or Liliana/Jace with Negate backup).

2-0 vs. Zoo

Thragtusk and Ooze get there. Wiped 2 Goyf and 3 Qasali with a single therapy during a game.

2-0 vs. Merfolk

Single Garruk after a mull to 5 stalls to 7 X 6/6 Wurms. Volrath Tower + Thragtusk loop in G2.

2-1 vs. DnT

Lose G1 to a greedy 1 land/1 Brainstorm hand, I fail to find lands and I scoop to Karakas/Mangara. Recurring Deeds along with EE and Plagues makes it impossible for my opponent to stick anything in G2 and 3.

[Tao]

@qweerios: 4 GSZ seems good. Also the Executioner's Capsule seems right, I have to agree. But I really don't like the choice of 0 Abrupt Decay. And even though Spot Removal is currently not that great in Legacy, Decay fills the curve so well while being able to dogde Spell Snare. And getting rid of Counterbalance is what currently makes it a must-play imo, at least as a 2-off.

[Qweerios]

Man, I haven't seen anyone use Spell Snare in a good 6 months... As it is now, I prefer Liliana to Decay. I get more value out of her than a straight 1 for 1.

[Arianrhod]

I've seen people use Spell Snare.....in vintage. (Seriously, it's soooooo good right now in that format). But Qweerios is right -- I haven't seen a Snare in legacy in a long-ass time. Not really sure there's pressing need for it to come back, either -- Counterbalance is around, but it's hardly dominating.

@Slikwilly -- Birds is fine in BUG versions (as is Hierarch). BUG needs some kind of mana dork, because they need a way to make blue mana without actually fetching an island, or else Merfolk will eat their soul. Being able to block the fishmen while building up mana to play/crack Deed is a big deal in the matchup. I resist playing BoP/Hierarch in other versions of the deck, but it's fine in BUG. It's just a situational choice.

And yeah, I'm going to miss having RUG around to shit on, but we'll adapt.

I think there are two -huge- gainers from RtR: BUG Control (non-Explorer, specifically), and U/W traditional control/Landstill. I'm not sure Verdict/Sphere are good enough to resurrect Standstill as a card, but they are awfully good.

Now -- both of these decks (should) shit on RUG in its current incarnation. More importantly as far we're concerned, they should shit on Show and Tell even harder. BUG has always been good vs combo IF it runs Goyf. Discard + counter + clock is something that combo just folds to. U/W will have Detention Spheres to nuke things off of Show, uncounterable sweepers to kill Grisel/Emrakul, and a ton of more situational options alongside lots of countermagic. They also have Terminus still, which means they'll have likely somewhere around 6 sweepers (3/3 or 4/2, I'd imagine). Both of these are also good vs Maverick, because they have a pisston of sweepers. Maverick -can- rely on Tsunami/Choke, however, which means that, along with Omniscience and Detention Sphere, Disenchant/Krosan Grip should gain in market share -- even more so if the U/W deck chooses Stoneforge.

Goblins seems fine vs BUG, but they're going to struggle vs U/W. U/W can bring all the spot removal, combined with sweepers and potential Moats. One thing that gives me pause about the matchup, though, is something that Finn pointed out in the DnT thread on Salvation -- Verdict's mana cost. 1WWU is pretty specific, and vulnerable to Waste/Port. BUG has always, always, always had trouble with its mana base as well, so Rishadan Port seems like a good gainer in the meta.

As for where that leaves us....well. BUG is an easy matchup for us, as is most varieties of U/W.dec. I don't know what exactly these lumbering U/W control decks will look like, so I can't say how best to attack them as yet, but Nic Fit's level of recursion (esp. Nightmare) is something that seems like it would be pretty boss vs the way their deck will likely be set up. They'll also likely have few win conditions, which means Cranial Extraction is an all-star (same with BUG). Phyrexian Arena may get bumped up in number, or additional copies in the board at least, as Arena tends to win those matchups by itself. Detention Sphere is nothing that we need to worry about, as it can get Deed/Pulse/Decay/Qasali/Sliver/Vindicate/Vraska/whatever out of the way. Rector is fine vs Goblins, thanks to Moat -- not sure how other versions fare. Scapewish is probably fine, since it can just combo out while chumping with accelerators.

Or, it might be that I don't have enough faith in RUG as a bad guy, and maybe it'll adapt and be fine. Or maybe people won't actually do the work of rebuilding BUG and U/W to make the meta shift happen. It's all theory and conjecture. If RUG/Maverick get pushed out and the meta shifts, though, I certainly don't think it's the end of the world for us. We can literally tune our deck to beat anything. The Explorer/Therapy engine is inherently good, IMO, and not merely good vs a certain meta. Hell, the deck in its modern form was born during the Misstep era. If it survived that, and it survived the high tide of Show and Tell, we can survive whatever is coming.

[Star|Scream]

Regarding the BUG fit list... How often do you guys mulligan a hand with no explorer? Would you keep a hand with therapy, land, land, and no creatures? Do you always try to have therapy + 1 or 2 drop creature to abuse it?


I think I'm playing the deck wrong. lol

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well, in my list, I generally keep the following hands:

1 Vet + 1 Sac Outlet + 1-3 Land + 2-4 Else (sac outlet includes GSZ for Rusalka as well)
1 Birds + 1-3 Land + 3-5 Else (Again, includes GSZ for Birds as well, though in that instance Else would also not include any sac outlets)

[Mister M.]

Well, in my list, I generally keep the following hands:

1 Vet + 1 Sac Outlet + 1-3 Land + 2-4 Else (sac outlet includes GSZ for Rusalka as well)
1 Birds + 1-3 Land + 3-5 Else (Again, includes GSZ for Birds as well, though in that instance Else would also not include any sac outlets)

Re: mulligan decisions.
I'm on GBW rockstyle Nic Fit for a few months now and have been learning the hard way that one (me) should nearly never keep a one-lander no matter what. Especially 1 land, explorer, (possible) sac outlet bit me in the tail more often than I'd like to admit. You open yourself to Stifle, Wasteland, Counters, Swords/Path in way one often cannot recover from, IMHO. I want to make it to mid/late game and that is not the way to go.

Rare occasion where one landers work out for me, involves: -postboard game -basic land -sensei's divining top -1cc action (carpet, sword, discard and the like).
Disclaimer: and even that setting came back to haunt me recently. On a mulligan to six postboard vs Stoneblade I kept basic land, SDT, SDT, three other cards. My opponent forced both tops on T1 and T2 respectively, gg.

[Arianrhod]

I've gotten a lot ballsier with my hands that I keep on the draw, and more often than not it pays off. I usually snap keep anything with a basic (or a fetch) and a Top. Some hands are obvious (land land Explorer Therapy XXX win?). But I tend to experiment a lot. It depends on what I'm up against, too. If I'm playing vs like Gobs or Fish, I'll keep a mono Forest + Explorer hand, because I can rely on my opponents' attack phase to set it off. I'll try to remember better what hands I actually keep, because to be honest I just kind of do it and don't think much about it afterwards.

But yeah, it depends a ton whether you're on the play or on the draw.

[Megadeus]

If I am playing against any deck that has to attack to beat me, I will usually keep the one land explorer hand. Eventually it will trigger, and once it does. Oh man. Of course that is also if they dont run white. Because STP is a Bitch.

Im currently Taking sample hands while I solitaire and Ill post whether or not I keep (keep in mind I am playing GB)

Hand 1: Forest, Swamp, 2x Verdant Catacombs, Eternal Witness, Maelstrom Pulse, SDT

I will probably keep this more than 60% of the time G1 just because of SDT and Witness. The pulse is nice catch all removal. G2 I would keep this if I were playing against most non combo decks. Probably mull against tribal.

Hand 2: 2x Swamp, Verdant Catacombs, Pernicious Deed, maelstrom Pulse, Explorer, natures Lore

G1 I will almost always keep this hand. I would open by fetching for a forest and playing the explorer. G2 again I will keep it if I were against any non combo deck (maybe even keep it vs belcher)

Hand 3: 2x Forest, Swamp, Bayou, Dryad Arbor, SDT, Maelstrom Pulse

Meh... dryad arbor in the opener always makes me cringe. SDT is a redeeming factor. More than likely I would keep, but I doubt it would be right. Against control G@ I may keep it, but against anything else I mull.

Hand 4: 2x Forest, Swamp, Treetop Village, 2x GSZ, Garruk, Primal Hunter

Ill probably keep G1. Having 2 GSZ is awesome. G2 Its tough. having no removal against creature decks seems bad.

Hand 5: Forest, Verdant Catacombs, 2x Pernicious Deed, E Witness, SDT, Innocent blood

Again, I probably keep it, but it doesnt mean that it is right. If I never draw land then I lose without a fight. Having 2 deeds and having SDT makes me want to keep it though.

Thinking about it, this is with only 3 explorers in my deck due to dropping my deck in a cup of water last night (dont ask). Luckily double sleeves! Sadly one man didnt ,make it

[Arianrhod]

That sounds ... awkward.

I would snap-keep your Hand #5. You have early removal vs Delver/Lackey/etc via Blood. You can lead Forest -> Top, upkeep spin, then either play more land that you find with Top, or draw a card you want then then play Verdant, crack for Swamp -> spin. There's a small chance you'll get dicked over and not find a 3rd land after Top + shuffle/Top, but I think the hand is strong enough that it's worth gambling that you'll find the 3rd land.

Edit for quote, since it kicked me to the first post of this page.



Hand 5: Forest, Verdant Catacombs, 2x Pernicious Deed, E Witness, SDT, Innocent blood

Again, I probably keep it, but it doesnt mean that it is right. If I never draw land then I lose without a fight. Having 2 deeds and having SDT makes me want to keep it though.

[Qweerios]

I was thinking the same. Hand #5 is extremely solid, it does what Nic Fit does best: keeps the board clean while you ramp. If you can't find a land in your next 6 cards, you just did something incredibly mean in the past and you're now paying for it.

As for how to play BUG, it's difficult to explain over a forum. I can tell you that compared to BG, I rarely trigger an Explorer before turn 3 while I used to get Explorer triggers on turn 2-3 nearly all the time with BG.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How do y'all playtest?

Also, I feel like compared to other versions, BUG wants to get to 7 to 10 mana. Not because our bombs cost that much, but because if our bombs are countered or removed, we rely on the best damn recursive engines in Legacy (or at least the most versatile) to control the board state and to recur our bombs to win. Like someone else said, BUG fit plays like a grindy control deck (or so it seems from goldfishing on my part).

EDIT: I need some sleep: started thinking Wild Cantor would be awesome as no-sac ramp in my list lol. Any suggestions for a useful 1-drop Zenithable nosac ramp?

[Raystar]

...I need some sleep: started thinking Wild Cantor would be awesome as no-sac ramp in my list lol. Any suggestions for a useful 1-drop Zenithable nosac ramp?

Deathrite Shaman? It seems good colour wise and if it sticks it helps a lot in the mid-late game.

[Arianrhod]

How do y'all playtest?

Also, I feel like compared to other versions, BUG wants to get to 7 to 10 mana. Not because our bombs cost that much, but because if our bombs are countered or removed, we rely on the best damn recursive engines in Legacy (or at least the most versatile) to control the board state and to recur our bombs to win. Like someone else said, BUG fit plays like a grindy control deck (or so it seems from goldfishing on my part).

EDIT: I need some sleep: started thinking Wild Cantor would be awesome as no-sac ramp in my list lol. Any suggestions for a useful 1-drop Zenithable nosac ramp?

Yeah, you want one of Birds, Hierarch, or Deathrite. Any of them are playable options, IMO. Deathrite might not always make mana, but unlike the other two options he does more than just make mana. He's also a g/b Grim Lavamancer. It really depends on how reliable you want your mana generator to be. If you for sure want the mana, then go for Birds (probably over Hierarch).

I'll be honest, I don't actually playtest anymore. When I was really all-in on brewing the deck, I grinded it on Cockatrice with my locals against pretty much any deck they could/would throw at it. Now, though, I've become really disillusioned with Cockatrice because its randomization matrices just blow ass, so it isn't even "real" / worthwhile test data. I also have the benefit of weekly local events at the college here (although they rotate Legacy every other week), and I'm usually traveling to some legacy event on Saturday or other. So basically my testing is just playing events at this point. Probably not the best way to go about it in the abstract, but I like having a life >_> Also, Magic Theory goes a LONG way with this deck in particular, for some reason. I have a good grounding of the theory behind Nic Fit, so I can kind of skate by on that alone. Sometimes I have bad ideas that could have been revealed through testing...but meh.

[CRich3]

I picked up a third Academy Rector at our local Modern Tournament last night. I am running 2 Diabolic Intent and 3 Green Sun. I tried to find Eladmri's Call but no one had any. I also forgot to get a second Baneslayer. I also got the Starved Rasulka. Just need to find Innocent Bloods before saturday. I think I'm going all in on Rector and Enchantments.

@Arianrhod: I dont get to play test at all anymore. Im taking my rector nic fit to SCG Cincinnati and I haven't played it in like 3 weeks except verses myself lol. So I am going off advice from people here and trying to watch the very few Nic-Fit videos that people post.

[slikwilly]

I picked up a third Academy Rector at our local Modern Tournament last night. I am running 2 Diabolic Intent and 3 Green Sun. I tried to find Eladmri's Call but no one had any. I also forgot to get a second Baneslayer. I also got the Starved Rasulka. Just need to find Innocent Bloods before saturday. I think I'm going all in on Rector and Enchantments.

I had to get my Call of ebay and even there they aren't exactly plentiful. It's not exactly a required card though. If you can't get one I wouldn't sweat it.


I dont get to play test at all anymore. Im taking my rector nic fit to SCG Cincinnati and I haven't played it in like 3 weeks except verses myself lol. So I am going off advice from people here and trying to watch the very few Nic-Fit videos that people post.

What is this 'playtest' you speak of? :) Legacy in my area is barely a thing. I travel over an hour once a week to get to the 'local' shop that has legacy scheduled every Thursday. It hasn't fired in over a month. My Magic playing friends aren't interested in rigorous testing, so my play consists of the rare events that fire. Realistically, I could play more Vintage than I can Legacy. I suppose I should play Standard since you can play that anywhere, but Legacy >>>>> Standard IMHO.

I read reports on here and am green with envy at the 'small' 32-player turn outs. No clue how it is that Legacy in the Chicago area is as weak as it is. Hotsauce has decent turnout, but it's pretty far and Mondays stink. Oh well, I still love it so I keep trying :) And on that note I am heading out to the weekly event. Knock on wood for 8+ people.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I picked up a third Academy Rector at our local Modern Tournament last night. I am running 2 Diabolic Intent and 3 Green Sun. I tried to find Eladmri's Call but no one had any. I also forgot to get a second Baneslayer. I also got the Starved Rasulka. Just need to find Innocent Bloods before saturday. I think I'm going all in on Rector and Enchantments.

@Arianrhod: I dont get to play test at all anymore. Im taking my rector nic fit to SCG Cincinnati and I haven't played it in like 3 weeks except verses myself lol. So I am going off advice from people here and trying to watch the very few Nic-Fit videos that people post.

You in the Cincy area? I'm from south of the river and my mtg group is going through its casual phase right now and am looking for some Legacy guys/gals.

[slikwilly]

And on that note I am heading out to the weekly event. Knock on wood for 8+ people.

Yay! Decent turnout today (12). Went 3-1 vs Maverick, RUG, UR Ninja, and OmniTell. The loss was to the Ninja deck and was just some less than good luck. I wasn't able to get any ramp going in G1 and he countered my zeniths. G2 I mulled to 5, kept a hand w/ Bayou + Tribe Elder. He wasted the Bayou, my next card was a plains, then he Thought Scoured a Carpet & Deed into my yard. We played a couple more games after since he thrashed me so quickly. I took those w/o issue.

[Arianrhod]

Yay! Decent turnout today (12). Went 3-1 vs Maverick, RUG, UR Ninja, and OmniTell. The loss was to the Ninja deck and was just some less than good luck. I wasn't able to get any ramp going in G1 and he countered my zeniths. G2 I mulled to 5, kept a hand w/ Bayou + Tribe Elder. He wasted the Bayou, my next card was a plains, then he Thought Scoured a Carpet & Deed into my yard. We played a couple more games after since he thrashed me so quickly. I took those w/o issue.

Good job! Give us some details about OmniTell, if you can recall them -- a lot of people in this thread have been struggling with beating that matchup, so if you can relate your experiences therein, it might help them improve, or figure out a line that actually works, at least.

Unrelatedly, how scary is that Ninja deck, actually? I keep hearing rumors about it like it's basically mono-U but doesn't run FoW, etc, but that it's actually good somehow. Every time I see a list it just looks like a heaping pile, but I guess it must be better than it looks?

[CRich3]

No I'm from columbus, I'm going to Cincy for SCG and I have family there. May come down more often though.

[kabards]

Ok now this is the time i will post what my Nic-Fit build was, i already acquired my Abrupt Decay. Below is my current list that will be playing this coming sunday.

Punishing Nic-Fit

Creatures : 13

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Olivia Voldaren

Spells : Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact : 25

4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Slaughter Games
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

[slikwilly]

Good job! Give us some details about OmniTell, if you can recall them -- a lot of people in this thread have been struggling with beating that matchup, so if you can relate your experiences therein, it might help them improve, or figure out a line that actually works, at least.

Get lucky breaks? :) We actually played 4 games since we finished before the other game that going on to determine prize payout. I went 4-0 against him. Game 1 he was on the play (I only played one game on the play all night) and let Island, Go. I go Swamp -> Therapy. He Brainstormed in response so called Emrakul to try to shuffle away whatever he hid. It whiffed revealing something like double Ponder, Ancient Tomb and some land. Turn 2 he Ponders, I Explorer & flashback Therapy to take away his other Ponder. Then he proceeds to draw tons of land while I am durdling trying to find a beatstick (w/ an Arena and SDT in play and still I draw nothing). Eventually he's able to S&T in a Grisselbrand. I played a Deed w/ seven land on board and a P.Tower in hand. So I play my Tower, and crack the Deed. He draws 7, going to five in the process. We durdle a turn or two more, and he cracks a fetch to shuffle away some cards. I played an Elspeth and make a dude. He casts S&T again, this time for Omni, I drop a Rector. Omni into Emrakul. I'm at 16 w/ a crap ton of land, Rector, a soldier, and Elspeth. He's got a spaghetti monster and can't attack me on the extra turn because he can't do lethal and can't annihilate enough permanents that I'd have to destroy the soldier + Elspeth. So he passes the turn, I Tower the Rector for Faiths Fetters onto Emrakul, jump the soldier and hit for lethal.

Game 2 he goes Island, Preordain. I figured he had a S&T target, but not S&T, so I go Swamp, Therapy and name Omni, hitting two :) T2 not much happens, T3 he drops a Lotus Petal, cracks it for a red, and Wishes for S&T. I Vindicate his Underground Sea leaving him with just an Island and hope he doesn't draw a sol land to cast S&T with. He doesn't so on T4 I Memoricide S&T. Considering he'd already wished for the one in his board that was game.

G3 not much happened T1 that I recall. T2 he hit me w/ a Thoughtseize seeing Explorer and Nethervoid. He took the Void. I top decked a Witness shortly thereafter, getting Void back, casting it successfully the next turn. Then it's slowly ramping to overcome the void while he can't do a whole lot. At one point he tapped his City of Traitors and played another land just to be able to pay for a Preordain :) Eventaully he got enough mana together to S&T putting in Omni, but even w/ Omni you still have to pay for Void. Basically taxed him out of the game.

Game 4 I don't recall. More successful Therapies.

There was a lot of fortunate top docks in these games. The things I really took away are that Nether Void rocks and wiffing on Therapy does not. I just got the Void yesterday too. When I got to the shop I saw a Storm deck and a Belcher deck. I'd been eyeing the Italian Void in the case for weeks, so I figured that 1) the price was good, 2) it was in good shape, 3) the event was actually going to fire, 4) it would be useful in the event, and 5) I am planning on some Legacy side events at the upcoming GP Chicago and I want it for that.


Unrelatedly, how scary is that Ninja deck, actually? I keep hearing rumors about it like it's basically mono-U but doesn't run FoW, etc, but that it's actually good somehow. Every time I see a list it just looks like a heaping pile, but I guess it must be better than it looks?

The Ninja deck is normally mono-U I think. This guy added R for Fire/Ice, Chain Lightning, and Lightning Bolt. It seemed a lot like UR Delver w/ Ninjas. I never saw any but he said he was also running Jaces Phantasm. G1 I lost because T2 I swung w/ my Explorer leaving me w/o a blocker. He EOT a Snapcaster which I'm like, "Uhh... WTF is going on here?" since he had nothing in the bin. What's going on is he Ninja'd in his Ninja and got himself a free card. And then played a Delver. I can't recall how my Explorer died, but I was shortly left w/o any blockers so he's getting all kinds of cards off that Ninja while he's countering all my GSZ. I had kept a marginal 6 card hand that was probably fine if he doesn't have the Ninja and get mad card advantage off it.

Game 2 I mulled to 5, keeping a hand w/ Elder + Bayou. I lead Bayou, he wastes it so I can't play the elder and I never did draw a forest after he blind flips delvers on both his subsequent turns.

We played a couple more which were uneventful wins for me. The Ninja costs 4, so it's costly to Deed away, but besides that it seems like any other Delver-centric deck. Stick a Deed to wreck their stuff, play and/or recur bombs until dead. Having a blocker up so they can't Ninjitsu is also good.

So yeah, Ninja + Snapcaster? Pretty sweet. Flash Snappy at EOT, then Ninja during combat. You get your Snapcaster back for later use AND a card. Probably only works G1 though.

[Star|Scream]

Good job! Give us some details about OmniTell, if you can recall them -- a lot of people in this thread have been struggling with beating that matchup, so if you can relate your experiences therein, it might help them improve, or figure out a line that actually works, at least.


I have managed to beat Omnitell with BUG fit, but it's no easy task. I was able to duress a show and tell, and then after he got another one with burning wish, I extirpated the one in the graveyard. Unlike sneak/show, without SNT they have to get to 10 mana to hardcast omni--which he actually did in one game since I had no clock at all.

So.. discard, extirpate/extraction effects, a clock, and luck are all required to beat that deck.

[guelahpapyrus]

@Kabards

I'd love a report after Sunday. I've been toying around with a Punishing Fit list for a few weeks but I haven't gotten around to do any testing.

My list is a little different from yours - I cut Olivia and Deranged Hermit for Thragtusk2 and Thrun.

[guelahpapyrus]

Unrelatedly, how scary is that Ninja deck, actually? I keep hearing rumors about it like it's basically mono-U but doesn't run FoW, etc, but that it's actually good somehow. Every time I see a list it just looks like a heaping pile, but I guess it must be better than it looks?

Could you link a list for interested parties?

[slikwilly]

Could you link a list for interested parties?

From SCG Minneapolis (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49131).

[kabards]

@Kabards

I'd love a report after Sunday. I've been toying around with a Punishing Fit list for a few weeks but I haven't gotten around to do any testing.

My list is a little different from yours - I cut Olivia and Deranged Hermit for Thragtusk2 and Thrun.

Yeah tomorrow i will put a short tournament report after i got home, i'm also considering to put out Olivia if it doesn't work tomorrow :laugh:

[Tao]

Why do you not run a Primeval Titan. I always thought it was a great addition to the deck. This way you have Broodmate for the immediate impact and Titan for getting 2 Groves or Stronghold/Grove the long, grindy game.
How comfortable are you without any Disenchant effects to tutor for? But maybe Abrupt Decay is enough, that would be an easy free slot.

[kabards]

Why do you not run a Primeval Titan. I always thought it was a great addition to the deck. This way you have Broodmate for the immediate impact and Titan for getting 2 Groves or Stronghold/Grove the long, grindy game.
How comfortable are you without any Disenchant effects to tutor for? But maybe Abrupt Decay is enough, that would be an easy free slot.

Yeah Primeval Titan is also a good choice but if you want to go for Zenith to finish the game maybe you should go for Broodmate Dragon rather than Primeval Titan

[kabards]

Why do you not run a Primeval Titan. I always thought it was a great addition to the deck. This way you have Broodmate for the immediate impact and Titan for getting 2 Groves or Stronghold/Grove the long, grindy game.
How comfortable are you without any Disenchant effects to tutor for? But maybe Abrupt Decay is enough, that would be an easy free slot.

Yeah Primeval Titan is also a good choice but if you want to go for Zenith to finish the game maybe you should go for Broodmate Dragon rather than Primeval Titan

[Arianrhod]

Got 2nd at Mythic for just shy of $250 credit today, with Scapewish. I'll have a report up probably Monday morning. I went completely undefeated until the finals, then my luck ran out and I died in two very, very narrow games to BUG control. They were easily winnable if he didn't draw quite as good, or if I drew a little bit better...just the way the cookie crumbled. Certainly not displeased, though.

[Kich867]

Got 2nd at Mythic for just shy of $250 credit today, with Scapewish. I'll have a report up probably Monday morning. I went completely undefeated until the finals, then my luck ran out and I died in two very, very narrow games to BUG control. They were easily winnable if he didn't draw quite as good, or if I drew a little bit better...just the way the cookie crumbled. Certainly not displeased, though.

If Burning Wishes weren't quite so hard to find I feel like I could really get behind Scapewish haha. All my aggro-loam lands are already pretty relevant to the list. Doesn't seem to be much of an investment to transition over and honestly, so far, all I see are super positive results haha.

[fireiced]

Yeah Primeval Titan is also a good choice but if you want to go for Zenith to finish the game maybe you should go for Broodmate Dragon rather than Primeval Titan

I usually green sun into titan or hardcast him to find any land + boseiju to roll out scapeshift the next turn to make u/w control players have it in their faces! :mad:

[Megadeus]

I have liked Prime Time a lot. The flying on the dragon is nice, but the trample and fetching 2 treetop villages is pretty sweet... A lot better vs miracles as they cant terminus away the lands easily.

[Tao]

Yeah Primeval Titan is also a good choice but if you want to go for Zenith to finish the game maybe you should go for Broodmate Dragon rather than Primeval Titan

Broodmate is sometimes not going very far in the control mirror. They Swords + Jace the Token, or Swords + Snapcaster the Swords or Deed everything. Primeval getting 2 Groves is almost impossible to outcontrol in G1, so now they have to race you and not vice versa.

[kabards]

Broodmate is sometimes not going very far in the control mirror. They Swords + Jace the Token, or Swords + Snapcaster the Swords or Deed everything. Primeval getting 2 Groves is almost impossible to outcontrol in G1, so now they have to race you and not vice versa.

But Broodmate has the evasion that Primeval Titan don't get. Maybe it's case to case basis

[kabards]

Ok this is my Tournament Report for tonight after playing 5 rounds of Swiss battling out for a Box of Return to Ravnica. I'm using my Punishing Nic-Fit 30+ players came to test their newly built deck.

Round 1 vs UW Miracle. 2-0
Game 1 : I won the die roll, I got a good hand, 1 Veteran Explorer, 2 Lands, 1 Zenith, Cabal Therapy and 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, i disrupt his hand early and he doesn't have any answer to Huntmaster and a Thragtusk that came from Green Sun Zenith.

Game 2 : Mainboard out : 4 Veteran Exlorer, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Olivia Voldaren, 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Pernicious Deed. Sideboard in : 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Duress, 3 Carpet of Flowers. Opening hand i got an early disrupt, Carpet of Flowers, Pyroblast and a 2 Green Sun Zenith. Disrupt + Carpet of Flowers + back up Pyroblast wins the game also a couple of Abrupt Decay that hit his counterbalance.

Round 2 vs Sneaky Show 1-2

Game 1 : Opening hand 1 Veteran Exlorer, Liliana of the Veil, 3 Lands and 1 Zenith, 1 Abrupt Decay. Im on the draw. He plays a land pondered then passes the turn. I only play Veteran Exlorer and pass the turn. 2nd turn he put his Ancient Tomb then cast Show and Tell and put Emrakul and i just put my land then passes his turn while smiling infront my face, Im just thinking that i can survive Emrakul if he doesn't have any counter in his hand. During my turn I cast my Liliana of the Veil and hoping that he doesn't have any counter in his hand. Successfuly i used the 2nd Ability of Liliana to put down his Emrakul then he was already controlled by Liliana.

Game 2 : An Easy win for him he has his Leyline of Sanctity in his opening hand, my Disrupt was locked in my hand and i could't get my Maelstorm Pulse in my deck.

Game 3 : Same as game 2 but he mulled for Leyline of Sanctity.

Round 3 : vs Esper Stoneblade. 2-0

Game 1 : Abrupt decay kills his Stoneforge Mystic and a couple of disrupt via Cabal Therapy and Huntmaster sealed the game.

Game 2 : win via Abrupt + Punishing Grove combo and early Carpet of Flowers and early Thragtusk wins the game.

Round 4 : vs Belcher 1-2
Game 1 : Lost via 1st turn Belcher

Game 2 : I play my Veteran Explorer then passes the turn. He combo out via Empty the Warrens with 16 Goblins then passes the turn. I put my Phyrexian Tower and sacrifice my Explorer and Deed for 0. Thragtusk via Zenith sealed the game.

Game 3 : He mulls for 6 then puts the Lion's Eye Diamond then passes the turn. I put my Veteran Explorer 1st turn even if i had an opening Cabal Therapy in hand, i think this was also my missplay during game 3. During his turn he got a top decked Belcher come from a Gitaxian Probe that sealed our game.

Round 5 : vs Dredge 2-0

Game 1 : An early Zenith to Scavenging Ooze sealed the game.

Game 2 : same as game 1 Scavenging Ooze is the MVP.


Thank you for reading my tournament report.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Ok this is my Tournament Report for tonight after playing 5 rounds of Swiss battling out for a Box of Return to Ravnica. I'm using my Punishing Nic-Fit 30+ players came to test their newly built deck.

Round 1 vs UW Miracle. 2-0
Game 1 : I won the die roll, I got a good hand, 1 Veteran Explorer, 2 Lands, 1 Zenith, Cabal Therapy and 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, i disrupt his hand early and he doesn't have any answer to Huntmaster and a Thragtusk that came from Green Sun Zenith.

Game 2 : Mainboard out : 4 Veteran Exlorer, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Olivia Voldaren, 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Pernicious Deed. Sideboard in : 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Duress, 3 Carpet of Flowers. Opening hand i got an early disrupt, Carpet of Flowers, Pyroblast and a 2 Green Sun Zenith. Disrupt + Carpet of Flowers + back up Pyroblast wins the game also a couple of Abrupt Decay that hit his counterbalance.

Round 2 vs Sneaky Show 1-2

Game 1 : Opening hand 1 Veteran Exlorer, Liliana of the Veil, 3 Lands and 1 Zenith, 1 Abrupt Decay. Im on the draw. He plays a land pondered then passes the turn. I only play Veteran Exlorer and pass the turn. 2nd turn he put his Ancient Tomb then cast Show and Tell and put Emrakul and i just put my land then passes his turn while smiling infront my face, Im just thinking that i can survive Emrakul if he doesn't have any counter in his hand. During my turn I cast my Liliana of the Veil and hoping that he doesn't have any counter in his hand. Successfuly i used the 2nd Ability of Liliana to put down his Emrakul then he was already controlled by Liliana.

Game 2 : An Easy win for him he has his Leyline of Sanctity in his opening hand, my Disrupt was locked in my hand and i could't get my Maelstorm Pulse in my deck.

Game 3 : Same as game 2 but he mulled for Leyline of Sanctity.

Round 3 : vs Esper Stoneblade. 2-0

Game 1 : Abrupt decay kills his Stoneforge Mystic and a couple of disrupt via Cabal Therapy and Huntmaster sealed the game.

Game 2 : win via Abrupt + Punishing Grove combo and early Carpet of Flowers and early Thragtusk wins the game.

Round 4 : vs Belcher 1-2
Game 1 : Lost via 1st turn Belcher

Game 2 : I play my Veteran Explorer then passes the turn. He combo out via Empty the Warrens with 16 Goblins then passes the turn. I put my Phyrexian Tower and sacrifice my Explorer and Deed for 0. Thragtusk via Zenith sealed the game.

Game 3 : He mulls for 6 then puts the Lion's Eye Diamond then passes the turn. I put my Veteran Explorer 1st turn even if i had an opening Cabal Therapy in hand, i think this was also my missplay during game 3. During his turn he got a top decked Belcher come from a Gitaxian Probe that sealed our game.

Round 5 : vs Dredge 2-0

Game 1 : An early Zenith to Scavenging Ooze sealed the game.

Game 2 : same as game 1 Scavenging Ooze is the MVP.


Thank you for reading my tournament report.

So it seems that Scapewish/Punishing Fit/Jund in general seems like the best bet in a fair environment, but very susceptible to the deck/hand based combo decks. Since Dredge has always been grave-based and, to a certain extent, alpha-strike based as opposed to cheat-in-big-bad-and-win or copy-this-spell-thirty-times-and-win, I'm not exactly surprised by that game.

Though, I have to ask: did you think you could win against Belcher if you had Therapied for something first?

[MrIggins]

So I've been testing Deathrite Shaman a little and while I haven't played many games with it yet, I wasn't very impressed with it. I feel that Birds of Paradise might just be stronger, more consistently producing mana when that's what's needed (which is what i wanted Shaman to do).

Have any of you done much testing with the card? I'm really curious if it has a place in the deck since it seems really strong.

[Kich867]

So I've been testing Deathrite Shaman a little and while I haven't played many games with it yet, I wasn't very impressed with it. I feel that Birds of Paradise might just be stronger, more consistently producing mana when that's what's needed (which is what i wanted Shaman to do).

Have any of you done much testing with the card? I'm really curious if it has a place in the deck since it seems really strong.

I don't think Deathrite Shaman does what this deck wants. On the flip side, I'm of the opinion that Deathrite Shaman is going to be the Noble Hierarch / Mom of Jund decks. The introduction of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay gives me the feeling that straight up Jund decks are actually viable now. They have enough beaters, they have enough disruption now, and they have enough removal now.

[kabards]

So it seems that Scapewish/Punishing Fit/Jund in general seems like the best bet in a fair environment, but very susceptible to the deck/hand based combo decks. Since Dredge has always been grave-based and, to a certain extent, alpha-strike based as opposed to cheat-in-big-bad-and-win or copy-this-spell-thirty-times-and-win, I'm not exactly surprised by that game.

Though, I have to ask: did you think you could win against Belcher if you had Therapied for something first?

Maybe i could win my belcher match in 3rd game i would name Pyretic/Desperate Ritual i his hand rather than Belcher or Burning Wish to slower his phase then if i got named the correct card i would already name that match. I think it's better if you would be aggresively disrupt his hand early rather that put a Veteran Explorer and pass the turn, and well that was my Missplay during that game.

[sherko7]

Ok this is my Tournament Report for tonight after playing 5 rounds of Swiss battling out for a Box of Return to Ravnica. I'm using my Punishing Nic-Fit 30+ players came to test their newly built deck.

Round 1 vs UW Miracle. 2-0
Game 1 : I won the die roll, I got a good hand, 1 Veteran Explorer, 2 Lands, 1 Zenith, Cabal Therapy and 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, i disrupt his hand early and he doesn't have any answer to Huntmaster and a Thragtusk that came from Green Sun Zenith.

Game 2 : Mainboard out : 4 Veteran Exlorer, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Olivia Voldaren, 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Pernicious Deed. Sideboard in : 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Duress, 3 Carpet of Flowers. Opening hand i got an early disrupt, Carpet of Flowers, Pyroblast and a 2 Green Sun Zenith. Disrupt + Carpet of Flowers + back up Pyroblast wins the game also a couple of Abrupt Decay that hit his counterbalance.

Round 2 vs Sneaky Show 1-2

Game 1 : Opening hand 1 Veteran Exlorer, Liliana of the Veil, 3 Lands and 1 Zenith, 1 Abrupt Decay. Im on the draw. He plays a land pondered then passes the turn. I only play Veteran Exlorer and pass the turn. 2nd turn he put his Ancient Tomb then cast Show and Tell and put Emrakul and i just put my land then passes his turn while smiling infront my face, Im just thinking that i can survive Emrakul if he doesn't have any counter in his hand. During my turn I cast my Liliana of the Veil and hoping that he doesn't have any counter in his hand. Successfuly i used the 2nd Ability of Liliana to put down his Emrakul then he was already controlled by Liliana.

Game 2 : An Easy win for him he has his Leyline of Sanctity in his opening hand, my Disrupt was locked in my hand and i could't get my Maelstorm Pulse in my deck.

Game 3 : Same as game 2 but he mulled for Leyline of Sanctity.

Round 3 : vs Esper Stoneblade. 2-0

Game 1 : Abrupt decay kills his Stoneforge Mystic and a couple of disrupt via Cabal Therapy and Huntmaster sealed the game.

Game 2 : win via Abrupt + Punishing Grove combo and early Carpet of Flowers and early Thragtusk wins the game.

Round 4 : vs Belcher 1-2
Game 1 : Lost via 1st turn Belcher

Game 2 : I play my Veteran Explorer then passes the turn. He combo out via Empty the Warrens with 16 Goblins then passes the turn. I put my Phyrexian Tower and sacrifice my Explorer and Deed for 0. Thragtusk via Zenith sealed the game.

Game 3 : He mulls for 6 then puts the Lion's Eye Diamond then passes the turn. I put my Veteran Explorer 1st turn even if i had an opening Cabal Therapy in hand, i think this was also my missplay during game 3. During his turn he got a top decked Belcher come from a Gitaxian Probe that sealed our game.

Round 5 : vs Dredge 2-0

Game 1 : An early Zenith to Scavenging Ooze sealed the game.

Game 2 : same as game 1 Scavenging Ooze is the MVP.


Thank you for reading my tournament report.

I think I won our game 2 with Firestorm on your Ooze. :tongue: Great tournament report, and thanks for the advice on Nic Fit. I am planning to pick the deck up sometime soon, probably by December :tongue:

[kabards]

Deathrite Shaman would be fit sideboard by BG decks, but for Nic-Fit scavenging ooze is enough for this deck just my opinion

[kabards]

I think I won our game 2 with Firestorm on your Ooze. :tongue: Great tournament report, and thanks for the advice on Nic Fit. I am planning to pick the deck up sometime soon, probably by December :tongue:

Oh yeah forgot cause i'm already sleepy when i make this report trying to remember all the things that happen :laugh: 2nd game i loss to Dredge via Zombie swarm and a firestorm in the face of Scavenging :laugh:

[Arianrhod]

Okay, here's the promised update. This is probably going to end up being a pretty huge post, covering a lot of topics, so I'll try to break it up as best I can.

ScapeWish:

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan

3x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Scapeshift
2x Bonfire of the Damned

4x Taiga
3x Badlands
3x Bayou
2x Stomping Ground
4x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Thoughtseize
1x Slaughter Games
1x Tsunami
1x Pulverize
1x Damnation
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Reanimate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Scapeshift


Unfortunately, this Mythic event was a bit smaller than usual -- we only had 23 people instead of the usual 30-35. Prizes were still guaranteed down through top 16, so you had to suck to not get something, although they're probably going to be decreasing a bit for the future, sadly. Regardless, there was a pretty good crop of talent in the room, as is normal for upstate New York.

R1: Gabe with Nic Fit Blue

Gabe's a friend of mine from the Ithaca crew, and he's been experimenting with Nic Fit for a few months now. Last I saw him, he was on straight G/B and hating it. I'd advised him to add a color. He'd previously played a lot of BUG Control, so it's hardly surprising that he went with blue. His list is a good bit different than some others that we've seen in here, for good or for ill. Regardless, game one I kept a slightly sketchy hand because I was pretty sure that he was on Nic Fit, and would therefore be accelerating me. It was like a two-lander with a Wood Elves, a Scapeshift, and some other 4+ drops. He didn't accelerate me (in fact neither of us saw a Veteran all game), but my deck decided it wanted to draw lands, so it worked out anyway. We went back and forth for a little while, I Scapeshifted, and he died.

Game two was hilarious, and featured the kind of shenanigans that can only happen in a Nic Fit mirror. We both had turn 1 Veterans. He swung into me, I blocked, and he played a turn 2 Consecrated Sphinx. He was only at 19, so I couldn't turn 2 him with the Scapeshift in my hand. I decided to be funny instead while waiting to get that one more land/point of damage. I Wished for Innocent Blood, then Wished again for Reanimate, taking his Sphinx. On his turn, he bounced Sphinx with Jace. Then he Therapied me, whiffing but seeing the Scapeshift. He didn't have a creature to flashback, so he died to angry mountains the next turn.

1-0/2-0.

R2: Tony with BW Stoneblade

Tony's my local/frequent carmate that appears in my reports a lot because we always seem to play every freaking event. I don't really remember too much about these games. I know that I won with Scapeshift both games, and I know that g2 he had gained a ton of life with a Batterskull and it just didn't matter. I think the mountains hit for like 42...

2-0/4-0.

R3: Phil with MUD

Phil is an acolyte of Timur's, so I knew that his list was going to be much more dangerous than a traditional MUD deck. Game one I have to choose between leading with Top or Explorer, because there's a very real danger of Chalice@1. I elect to go with Top, and pass turn. He makes a Grim Monolith and ships back. I play the Explorer and pass with Top mana open. He makes a Wurmcoil. We dance around for a bit, with me ramping and him not drawing more land. I eventually Wish for Innocent Blood, then Deed away the tokens and his Monolith -- literally the turn before he draws a Voltaic Key. Phew. He eventually digs out while I'm stuck on like 6 lands with the Scapeshift in hand, but with a Huntmaster and a Thragtusk in play, and drops a Steel Hellkite. I spin Top, see Bonfire, and chuckle. Draw step, Bonfire for 5, swing for lethal.

G2 I elect to not board. I'll be on the draw, so bringing in Thoughtseize is a horrible idea because he probably has Chalice@1. He leads Tomb pass, then drops a t2 Lodestone followed by a t3 Wurmcoil, I think via Monolith. I have four lands, so after doing some math I smile. I Wish for Pulverize, and sac my two mountains to wrath his board. He still has the two tokens, and three lands -- a pair of Tombs and a Port. He punches me and passes, then slips up and fails to Port me on upkeep, which lets me breath a sigh of relief and resolve a Pernicious Deed to kill the tokens. We both take a few turns digging out of our respective holes, and I eventually Scapeshift him for way more than lethal. He looks sad.

Note that at various points in these games, I therapied him and he had Platinum Emperions in his hand, which I was absolutely terrified of. It occurred to me later that I could Scapeshift with lethal +3 mountains, pointed the last three triggers at Emperion, and then the rest at his face and he would have still died. At the time, though, I was scared shitless of that thing.

3-0/6-0.

R4/R5 ID.

Top 8 decides to play, since Henry was playing Big Red and was feeling confidant as the first seed. Naturally he lost in the first round of Top 8, but at that point Top 8 felts like playing it out anyway, so whatever. I was 2nd seed, so once he lost, I got the privilege of being on the play every match!

Top 8: Connor with Death and Taxes

Connor is a newer member of the Ithaca crew, and I think this was actually his first legacy event away from home. Timur attempted to console him at various points because this matchup is ATROCIOUS for Death and Taxes. It's almost impossible for them to beat Scapewish. Game one I Virtue's Ruined him twice, then Scapeshift FTW. The Thoughtseizes in my board were relevant for the first time ever here, as I Wished for one to discard his equipment that he tutored for with Stoneforge. I didn't board anything. Game two looks an awful lot like game one, except I won quicker.

Top 4: Nich with Team Italia

Nich and I have a habit of having good games. He usually falls somewhere in the Deadguy/Zombardment/Italia range...he's been playing Bombardment a lot lately, but since Mythic is developing a tendency for MUD decks (which just SHITS on Bombardment), he opted to play something that doesn't scoop to that matchup.

Both of our boards stay pretty clear throughout these games, and Scapeshift does the heavy lifting. He had some good times ripping Therapy off the top on like turn 20 when we have one card in hand, because obviously it's another Therapy. Etc. At the end of the day, he can't overcome the mountains.

Finals: Some dude with BUG Control

Unfortunately I never got this guy's name. Pretty sure he was another member of the Ithaca crew that I'd not met before, since he had borrowed like half of his deck from Timur. My luck ran out hard here. He goes for fast pressure g1, with a Goyf and a Clique beating down. Other than those two, however, he's flooding out hard, but so am I. He has no cards in hand, and is WELL with Scapeshift range. My outs are like any non-land card in my deck. I rip a Badlands. Awkward. First game I lost all day =(

Game two he drops a fast Jace, and has literally just enough counterspells to protect it. Like...if he had one fewer counterspell or I drew one more threat, I won the game. These games couldn't have been closer. If he drew slightly worse or I drew slightly better, it would have been completely different. Still, though, I'm content with my 2nd place finish, good for $240 store credit, which along with some trade-ins means I now have 2 Goyfs again, and I'm back up to a playset of Bobs (which is relevant for vintage and modern). Scapewish has now won me just shy of a grand between Vestal, Mythic, and local events, making it the most successful version...even if I enjoy the Rector version more =(

There's pretty much nothing I would change about the decklist at the moment. Everything has a purpose, and is the best option for that purpose. Pulverize is a little questionable, and can be replaced if you don't have MUD or Affinity in your local metas. The deck just ROLLS to MUD without it, though, so it's probably worth the insurance to keep it around just in case.

Biggest slop of the day: I didn't open a single Slaughter Games in two boxes, and my foil preorders just shipped on Friday. So Friday night at Draft, I literally SECOND-PICKED a Slaughter Games just so I had one for legacy. And then I DIDN'T FREAKING USE IT ONCE. Rage. So much rage.

Steve was running my Rector deck, and went 2-2-1 for a top 16 finish, largely because he's terrible. He lost to Nich's Team Italia because he didn't get back Sun Titan with Nightmare, opting for Thragtusk instead; he lost to Merfolk because he was stupidly greedy; he beat Burn despite slipping up his Yosei lock at 1 life, while looping Cranial Extraction and somehow failing to take Fireblast; he beat Death and Taxes (different player than top 8); and he drew with a different BW Stoneblade player so that they were both in top 16. I think that he technically won that match, though, when they played it out. He'll be practicing with it all week, and then running it at SCG Providence, so here's hoping he does well with it.

===========================================================

Topic 2: Rector update / boarding thoughts

1x Starved Rusalka
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

1x Moat
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Phyrexian Arena

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Nether Void
1x Raking Canopy
1x Humility
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Aven Mindcensor
3x Extirpate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide

This hasn't actually changed that much. I've been thinking about putting in a Vraska somewhere, probably in the sideboard, but I haven't tried it yet. Vraska has impressed me as a card, so far, but I don't know what/where I want to put her yet. I suspect that sideboard will be here eventual home, probably at the cost of the do-nothing Mindcensors. I like Mindcensor in theory, because it helps out vs Maverick while also being effective vs combo. In practice, though, they're somewhat underwhelming.

Yosei over Kokusho is completely correct, and I'm annoyed that it took me this long to realize that.

Harmonic Sliver has been awesome, and I believe is correct over Qasali for the "artifact kill dude slot." It kills something and then leaves a body behind to ramp through Tower, pass through Nightmare, or sac to Therapy. This can be surprisingly relevant.

Sakura-Tribes have definitely been better than Viridian Emissaries for me in testing. If you are in a matchup where you need to Therapy them, you can still flash it back on the snake...you don't get your land, but if you're vs combo you care less about the land and more about the discard. Usually, Sakura-Tribe fogs, ramps, and makes Nightmare active much, much earlier than it otherwise would be, which is all I could ask for from a 2-drop.

Ooze has been great in the sideboard. I still like other cards over it in the maindeck, but I can't disagree that Ooze is fantastic in some matchups.

I think that the only change I'm looking at making is cutting the Mindcensors, probably for a Vraska and a Deathrite Shaman, more for testing purposes than tournament readiness. If you're taking Rector to an event and you want to copy my list, run it with Mindcensors for now. They're the weakest link, but I don't have anything that's "confirmed better," if you will.

Now, for sideboarding. Steve specifically asked me to write this up so that he has something to go on for Providence....largely because I kept yelling at him as he boarded out Sakura-Tribe Elder every match.

I will note before I go into this that these are rough guides, not exact do-or-dies. Depending on the player and their individual style/list/experience level, I'll board differently. But as a rule of thumb, here you go:

Maverick:
IN: Ooze, Mindcensors. If they're running Stoneforge, bring in the Sliver.
OUT: Nightmare, 1 Rector, 1 Veteran. If Sliver is coming in too, take out Pulse.
Notes: Maverick runs multiple Oozes, which will make Nightmare horrible. I usually board out 1 Rector to hedge against a competent player, but if the game goes to 3 and I get the feeling that my opponent doesn't know how to exile Rector to fizzle her trigger (don't spread that secret around, since probably 80-90% of people don't know about it), I'll usually board her back in. Pulse is less good than Sliver is if you need an artifact kill for equips, because Mother of Runes is a card. Boarding out 1 Veteran is fine here, because they'll usually ramp your opponent, and that can be dangerous because a lot of Maverick lists have started to adopt Armageddon to fight Miracles. If they Armageddon you g2, board out 2 more Explorers for Cranial and Memoricide to remove that from the equation. If they're running Armageddon, they'll probably board out Thalia, which means you need the ramp a bit less. You still have 1 Explorer at that point to Zenith for, and you still have the Tribe-Elders. Plus, your cards are better at every level on the curve than theirs are.

RUG:
IN: Carpets x3, Canopy, Ooze
OUT: Yosei, Titan, Empath, Nightmare, Phyrexian Arena
Notes: You ride your 5-drops to victory post-board. Baneslayers, Tusk, and Sigarda are all more than capable of finishing the match. You also have the ability to hardlock their combat via Moat + Canopy. Nightmare comes out because RUG often boards in dredge hate in this matchup. If you don't see gy hate g2, feel free to board it back in g3. Arena comes out because RUG can get some wickedly fast openers, and can put you low enough on life, especially with threat of burn, that you bleeding every turn for a card is a bad idea.

Show and Tell (various):
IN: Everything except Canopy and Ooze.
OUT: Deeds, Moat, Nightmare, Sun Titan, Thragtusk, Yosei, Empath, Vindicate, Pulse, 1 Explorer
Notes: Sliver beats Sneak Attack and Omniscience, which is why it comes in. Sometimes that won't be good enough, but you shave percentages where you can. I hate playing vs Show and Tell decks because you have to take out all of your fun cards. Like, the deck is completely anti-fun. Your sole goal in life is to make their life as much of a living hell as they've made yours. Nether Void rapes Omniscience, especially if it comes down before they Show and Tell. Humility turns off Griselbrand and Emrakul. Cranial and Memoricide are obvious. Extirpate pairs with Therapy to strip key threats, like Burning Wish, or if you get lucky, Omniscience/Emrakul/Griselbrand/Show and Tell. Extirpating Brainstorm is perfectly acceptable too, because it will both slow them down and make their deck much clunkier -- if they can't trade in excess combo pieces for cards that do something, they bog down really quickly. Don't forget that Therapy (they in resp. Brainstorm hiding their good cards), followed by Extirpate can be a pseudo Mind Twist, since it forces them to shuffle away their two best cards. Carpets accelerate you into more bombs. Etc. Try to be as much of a dick as you can, and you're probably on the right track.

Miracles:
IN: Carpet x3, Cranial, Memoricide, Canopy, Sliver.
OUT: Explorer x4, Deed x2, Moat
Notes: Most Miracles players I've played against board out Counterbalance in this matchup. Regardless, if you're on the play, you call Top with Therapy. If you're on the draw, you call Counterbalance just in case. Counterbalance can be a big problem if it comes down early. Mid-late game, though, and it's useless -- which is why IMO boarding it out is correct from the Miracles viewpoint. Explorer is horrible here because they have as many basics as we do, but their threats are Jace+counterspells and Entreat. Sliver gives you can out to Counterbalance, but more importantly it acts as a Green-Sunnable Naturalize for Detention Sphere/O-Ring. Fetters locks down Jace. Canopy nullifies Entreat until they can find a Sphere/Ring. You only need 1 Deed in deck because it's largely horrible against them, but you want 1 copy so you can just sit on it to make Entreat bad. Cranial and Memoricide take Entreat ASAP, followed by Jace. They're a slow, durdly control deck with like 3 win conditions. Strip their wincons and they get much, much worse. Your threat density is insane, especially with Nightmare looping and Yosei threatening to lock them out. Arena is amazing in this matchup, since they have no actual card advantage -- they live off the top of their deck with Top, and can't actually draw cards.

That's all I'm going to say about sideboarding, because I think that you should be able to get the general gist of what you board in vs what. The thought patterns are basically the same for every other legacy deck.

===========================================================

I have one more topic to discuss, but I'll make a separate post for that, since my browser is lagging. I don't like double-posting, but this post has grown large enough that I feel it necessary for my sanity, if nothing else.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, post #2, topic #3: Future Sight.

Timur (Zirath on here) and I were talking about this a good bit Saturday, and after watching Gabe go totally apeshit one game with a Oracle of Mul Daya, I think that there really is something to be said for the idea. However, I think that Future Sight is more of a specific version under the umbrella of Nic Fit Blue, as we have PFire, Scapewish, and Jund under Nic Fit Red, and so on. If you just shove Future Sight into a blue Nic Fit deck, I agree with whoever noted earlier that it's win more. It definitely is. That said, I feel that there is a Future Sight-centered build to be discovered that is at least as good, if not better than the BUG lists. There are two primary issues that I see on inception:

1: no white. Unless we want to get really, really crazy with the mana base (looking at you, City of Brass), there's no way we can easily splash white, and I've noticed that basically every BUG Nic Fit list I come up with is better with white. Sigarda is still the best, Unburial Rites is still amazing, Sun Titan still goes hand-in-hand with filthy Gifts piles, and so on. I will note here that, to my knowledge, there has never been a City of Brass control deck in legacy, while Vintage had 5c Stax for many years. I'm not sure that now is really the time, but the idea HAS been effective in the past.

2: Finding Future Sight. If we're basing a list around the concept of Future Sight, then we need either a way to efficiently find it, or ways to emulate it. Oracle of Mul Daya comes immediately to mind here, as a solid GSZ target if nothing else. The lack of white bites us in the ass yet again, as we can't use Rector or Enlightened Tutor to act as additional copies. At the same time, we don't really want multiple Future Sights, because they're absolutely useless in multiple. "Yeah man, I can REALLY cast shit from the top of my deck now!"

My best thought for #2 invalidates #1: Grim Tutor. Diabolic Intent is also an option, but that depends on how many creatures we're running. I believe that something like 2 Grim/2 Intent is probably a reasonable place to start, and then can be pared/tuned later depending on testing. With Thragtusk and something like Elixir of Immortality, the lifeloss from Tutor should be able to be compensated for, and while most decks care about the 3-mana cost, we really don't.

-This- is a version I can wholeheartedly support Trinket Mage in. Finding Top is going to be very important, and a Future Sight list is going to want to be abusing the topdeck lands as much as possible (Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins). Primeval Titan is probably important. Mage can also find Elixir of Immortality, which buys a chunk of time and provides a cheap, renewable shuffle effect. It would also allow us to not worry about milling out from excessive card advantage...or if we just went balls-deep and ran the Helm/Cloud Key while we're at it, to storm off. Obviously Jace and Brainstorm are the nuts here, as they quickly become Recall depending on what we're putting back on top.

I have yet to sketch up a list, but I am very interested in pushing R&D forward on this. I'd also be very interested to hear what thoughts you've had thusfar, Timur -- hopefully we can get something hammered out here, because I do believe there is potential, even if it'll be a few months before it's ready for Jupiter/Mythic.

[Zirath]

Infinite shout outs. For reference, the BUG player is Morgan; he's relatively new to our group (about a month) but he's definitely doing good work. And yes, almost the entire deck was composed of my cards. The only cards that weren't mine were Jace, Deed, Abrupt Decay and Shaman and that's only because my Jaces are on loan.

In addition, we have been calling Nich's deck the White Picket Fence. Originally, he used to play a BR deck that was the evolution of the Gate, which we called the Fence. Why the Fence? You can hop over it. We've added white and here we are now.

On the topic of Future Sight, I have been tossing this in my head for a long time. Here's the cards I know I want to play:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Future Sight
2-3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Luckily, this is very open ended.

In addition to the white issue (Rector is the best tutor), the other problem is the nature of black and blue. Black and blue, by far, are the most parasitic colors in Legacy. The most powerful black cards require you to have absurd amounts of black mana (Grim Tutor) and they require you to tap out. The most powerful blue cards require you to play other blue cards to make those blue cards good (Force). This creates a problem in deck construction because you can't go deep in either color because you will either end up with to much manipulation or too much disruption.

Now the other issue is what does the deck do. You've already suggested the Trinket Mage toolbox (I hate Trinket Mage for reference); however, the Helm-Top combo is something I can get behind because of how powerful of a secondary win it can be. The thought I had was going into the Turboland area. You have Jace and Explorer and we already talked about Oracle. This kind of deck can also reward you for playing permission (Mystic Snake) because you will have an effective extra card. You also get rewarded more for Fact or Fiction since it draws even more cards with Future Sight and it finds Future Sight better than other cards besides Grim Tutor.

I could also get behind 5CC. Gotta play all the Magus of the Moon.

[slikwilly]

Scapewish has now won me just shy of a grand between Vestal, Mythic, and local events, making it the most successful version...even if I enjoy the Rector version more =(

The Rector version is mighty fun to play, but half the reason I asked a couple weeks back about running different versions is because Scapeshift seems to be the nuts. Sadly I am miles away from having the resources for that build.


Steve was running my Rector deck, and went 2-2-1 for a top 16 finish, largely because he's terrible. He lost to Nich's Team Italia because he didn't get back Sun Titan with Nightmare, opting for Thragtusk instead; he lost to Merfolk because he was stupidly greedy; he beat Burn despite slipping up his Yosei lock at 1 life, while looping Cranial Extraction and somehow failing to take Fireblast; he beat Death and Taxes (different player than top 8); and he drew with a different BW Stoneblade player so that they were both in top 16. I think that he technically won that match, though, when they played it out. He'll be practicing with it all week, and then running it at SCG Providence, so here's hoping he does well with it.

I've been on the Nic Fit train for only 3 or so months now and only now feel like I really have it down (though I'm the type of player who needs lots and lots of games w/ a deck). Part of the reason Nic Fit is awesome though, is the complexity makes it fun. Prior to Nic Fit I was on UR Delver for 2 months and couldn't wait to be done w/ it (after GP Atlanta).



Topic 2: Rector update / boarding thoughts

I'm on a very similar list these days:
-1 Baneslayer, -1 SDT, +1 Eladamri's Call, +1 Elspeth Knight-Errant

Not too surprising though, given I modeled it after much of your leg work :cool: I've got some slight mana base changes too, but they're more due to availability than anything. Seems solid as I have it though.


This hasn't actually changed that much. I've been thinking about putting in a Vraska somewhere, probably in the sideboard, but I haven't tried it yet. Vraska has impressed me as a card, so far, but I don't know what/where I want to put her yet. I suspect that sideboard will be here eventual home, probably at the cost of the do-nothing Mindcensors. I like Mindcensor in theory, because it helps out vs Maverick while also being effective vs combo. In practice, though, they're somewhat underwhelming.

I think that the only change I'm looking at making is cutting the Mindcensors, probably for a Vraska and a Deathrite Shaman, more for testing purposes than tournament readiness. If you're taking Rector to an event and you want to copy my list, run it with Mindcensors for now. They're the weakest link, but I don't have anything that's "confirmed better," if you will.

My board differs a bit more:
-2 Mindcensor, -1 Extirpate, +1 O-Ring, +1 Thrun, +1 Leyline

O-Ring is good because you can put it on any Show & Tell and take out whatever they play. They'll still get a chance to respond w/ instants off Omni or draw of Grisselbrand, but I think it's solid. Thrun and Leyline I'm less sold on. When I put in Leyline I love it in the opener, but seldom is it worth mulling for, so maybe it's wrong. I actually put Thrun in vs Maverick. Hexproof (stones StP) + regeneration go a long way.

Speaking of new toys, I have yet to figure out how to squeeze in an Abrupt Decay. It replaces neither Vindicate nor Maelstrom Pulse thanks to the occasional need to nuke a land or respond to an Empty the Warrens.


Now, for sideboarding. Steve specifically asked me to write this up so that he has something to go on for Providence....largely because I kept yelling at him as he boarded out Sakura-Tribe Elder every match.

This is a constant battle for me too. "No, do not board out Elders!" It seems like such a lame card, but sometimes you gotta have it. Same w/ Rusalka. It's counter-intuitive to be boarding out Deeds, Explorers, and bombs with this deck.

The boarding advice is solid. I should put it in my notebook just so I'm not doubting myself about taking out 'key' cards.

[Arianrhod]

This is a constant battle for me too. "No, do not board out Elders!" It seems like such a lame card, but sometimes you gotta have it. Same w/ Rusalka. It's counter-intuitive to be boarding out Deeds, Explorers, and bombs with this deck.

The boarding advice is solid. I should put it in my notebook just so I'm not doubting myself about taking out 'key' cards.

I tend to think of boarding the deck as such: game one, we want the most ludicrous over-the-top shenanigans we can get, because we don't want to lose game one if we can at all avoid it. We need all of those bombs, because that's how we win games.

However, some decks, we don't need them. Or we need different bombs.

Like vs RUG -- it's actually impossible to RUG to beat Sigarda. You don't need Sun Titan there, or Yosei. All they do is end up in your opening hand and make you rage because you're going to struggle getting to that much mana (and be Daze proof). They can't profitably interact with Thragtusk. They can Gilded Drake Baneslayer, which is annoying, but they have to find one before she kills them -- and even then, you can either sac your Baneslayer to Rusalka/Tower in resp to the trigger, or you can crack Deed@2, which causes the trigger to fizzle as well. And believe me, there are few things scarier than RUG of all decks having a Sun Titan. He is the literal first card I take out g2 -- even though he's usually an all-star g1. Like you said, it's very counter-intuitive.

Also don't disregard the bombiness of stuff like Cranial Extraction. There are plenty of matchups where that's all the bomb you need. It doesn't fight in the traditional way, and it can't really turn sideways, but it can do every bit as much damage as an unchecked Sun Titan can when used properly.

[Cire_dk]

@Arianrhod: Scapewish has now won me just shy of a grand between Vestal, Mythic, and local events, making it the most successful version...even if I enjoy the Rector version more =(

I spoke to you a while ago and wondered if at this point you still think rector is best against a random meta?

I only have 2 huntmasters, is there an alternative to number 3?

In your report I do not see bonfire mentioned. Was it necessary or are they still replacable for example for 2 abrupt decay or even dreadbore? (prob. not :smile:)

Great report by the way!!

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: Scapewish has now won me just shy of a grand between Vestal, Mythic, and local events, making it the most successful version...even if I enjoy the Rector version more =(

I spoke to you a while ago and wondered if at this point you still think rector is best against a random meta?

I only have 2 huntmasters, is there an alternative to number 3?

In your report I do not see bonfire mentioned. Was it necessary or are they still replacable for example for 2 abrupt decay or even dreadbore? (prob. not :smile:)

Great report by the way!!

Rector is definitely still best vs a random meta, because it's prepared for literally every eventuality. It has something to do against every deck in the format. I won't say that it's always the best thing to do, per se, but it can beat anything. Scapewish is a very, very powerful weapon...but it really struggles with unfair decks. It's a bit better vs blue-based combo because of REB and Thoughtseize, but something like Dredge can be a bit of a challenge if the pilot is competent. There just isn't room for graveyard hate. On a related note, Reanimator can be a pain in the ass. But if you're looking at a room full of fair decks, you're not going to get a much better deck.

A lot of people who have adopted Scapewish have shaved a Huntmaster. I don't really think that's correct, just because Hunts has done so much work for me. But I think that the deck is certainly viable with only 2. I'd probably recommend a Scavenging Ooze as your replacement.

Bonfire came up a few times. It allowed me to kill MUD the turn I cast it by removing his Hellkite and getting him low enough on life to be lethal. It also killed a planeswalker at some point...I think it was a Jace in the Nic Fit blue matchup. Think of Bonfire like you would Maelstrom Pulse. It's a solid removal spell that is usually either going to kill a creature or two, or a planeswalker. I've liked having them, just because they are really good when they do come up, but I think they are replaceable. It just hurts your Tribal matchup a bit (as that's where they really shine). Pulses, Decays, Dreadbores, the 4th Deed, etc are all viable replacements if you don't have Bonfires. I'd recommend either Pulse or Dreadbore, personally. I'm not saying that your list will be quite optimal, but I do think that the deck is powerful enough in the abstract that it can work fine with a suboptimal list, if it gets the right matchups and you pilot it correctly (as always with any Nic Fit variant).

[CRich3]

I just got back from SCG Cincy with GBW Rector Fit and did absolutely horrible going 0-3-1. Most games I lost were because of bad choices. But UWR Miracles are a lot easier to play against that UW. I actually should of won that game. I was reading some posts and had some questions.

1. Why is Yosei better than Kokusho?
2. Anyone fit in Abrupt Decay? I took out Maelstrom Pulse in mine, only regretted it once.
3. Should I cut down to 2 Green Sun's? I only use them for utility creatures.

Here is my current list (changed a little after SCG Cincy to prepare for SCG Indy). I need to make room for Moat.

Creatures: 15
1x Starved Rusalka
4x Veteran Explorers
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

Spells: 23
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Diabolic Intent
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Recurring Knightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Faith's Fetters
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 23
2x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
2x Thoughtseize
3x Extirpate
4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Memoricide
2x Angel of Despair

[litenkatt]

@arianrhod

you're winning a lot with that scapewish version cuz u dont play against any combo decks at all imo. no reanimater, omni, storm, belcher etc.

Although nice report as usual, appreciate it a lot!

[rafulton]

CRich, I think we were sitting right next to each other in round 4. If so you were to my left, I took notice because we were both on 'Fit' (Me: GB and You: GBW) and doing very poorly. Going into round 4 I was 0-1-2 and round 4 was going to be a draw again until I gave it to my opponent seeing that it would make him 2-1-1 which is way better then the 0-1-3 I was headed for.


I just got back from SCG Cincy with GBW Rector Fit ...

[TheArchitect]

@Arianrhod: Congrats on the finish! Ill hopefully be at the next mythic legacy event with rector fit. I traded dredge, minus the LEDs, for a signed english moat so I will finally feel good not playing an suboptimal list.

@CRich: You should try the last rector list Arianrhod posted, Ive been using the same thing without the rusulka and really liking it. It just feels and plays "right". You drop 1 for 1 creature removal for more ramp (tribe elders) and the deck really shines. You can skip the 1 for 1 trades and just deed everything, or drop bombs with the mana you get!

I would never drop pulse/vindicate for abrupt decay. Their #1 use is killing jace and other big scary things deed has a harder time with (batterskull, MUD stuff, etc) which abupt decay cant do. Not to mention that they can hit tokens and lands respectively.

If we had trouble with RUG or countertop, I could justify abupt decay, but the white and red variants at least doesn't really.

[Qweerios]

How does Vandalblast instead of Pulverize sound for a Wish target?

Also, as a catch-all GSZ target, I think Acidic Slime is better than Qasali, Harmonic, Wickerbough, Zealot, etc... The "removal" GSZ bullet rarely comes down early and usually destroys something that prevents you from winning. I think being Slime is by far the most versatile as it also hits lands and has deathtouch.

[Arianrhod]

How does Vandalblast instead of Pulverize sound for a Wish target?

Also, as a catch-all GSZ target, I think Acidic Slime is better than Qasali, Harmonic, Wickerbough, Zealot, etc... The "removal" GSZ bullet rarely comes down early and usually destroys something that prevents you from winning. I think being Slime is by far the most versatile as it also hits lands and has deathtouch.

More replies in the morning as usual, but I just wanted to say something quick here -- I'd agree with this, except Harmonic Sliver can be brought back with Sun Titan, which is fairly relevant. For all non-white versions, I agree completely.

[slikwilly]

1. Why is Yosei better than Kokusho?
2. Anyone fit in Abrupt Decay? I took out Maelstrom Pulse in mine, only regretted it once.
3. Should I cut down to 2 Green Sun's? I only use them for utility creatures.


1. IMHO: control. Cocoa Puffs lets you win some games faster, but in my experience it rarely enabled you to win a game you weren't already going to win. Yosei however, lets you regain control and lock out your opponent for the win.
2. Not yet, but won't be taking out Pulse for it. My local is mostly a bunch of one-of decks. I'm as likely to see Belcher (where I want Pulse) as I am to see Countertop (where I want Decay). If I'm going to play it, something else has to go. I _want_ to play it, but the deck is jam packed as it is.
3. My worst games are the games where I look over my graveyard and see GSZs (curse you Spell Pierce and FoW). I cannot imagine running less than 3.

[slikwilly]

Creatures: 15
1x Starved Rusalka
4x Veteran Explorers
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

Spells: 23
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Diabolic Intent
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Recurring Knightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Faith's Fetters
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 23
2x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
2x Thoughtseize
3x Extirpate
4x Carpet of Flowers
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Memoricide
2x Angel of Despair

Sorry for the double post, but I just took a closer look at the list.

1) Add a Fierce Empath. You've got two 6-drops neither of which are tutorable. You'll like GSZ more when you can GSZ for three, get an Empath and a 6-drop (or your Angel of Despair). No point relying on a top deck when you can make your own luck.
2) Drop a Faiths Fetters for the Moat. Fetters is good, but I've never wanted > 1 (especially running 3 Rectors).
3) Diversify your removal. Decay is nice, but it mostly doesn't touch Planeswalkers or lands. I'd add a Vindicate as it can remove Jace and annoying lands.
4) I'd cut down on Plowshares too. Deed >> Plowshares.

Another reason to go w/ Yosei is it'll help your mana. I'm running Yosei, Sun Titan, Moat, Sigarda, Baneslayer, Elspeth which all take WW. Having fewer BB things (only Arena in my deck) makes things easier to cast because you can lean more heavily in those colored lands. You're heavy on white spells but light on white lands. I run 2x of the duals (slightly different from Arianrhod but he's also on 6 duals). I suggest that number if not that distribution, but at a minimum swing one of your swamps to a plains.

[Greenpoe]

I only have 2 huntmasters, is there an alternative to number 3?

Olivia Voldaren is pretty commonly run in its place (2 Huntmasters, 1 Olivia). She's pretty good - Punishing Fire on a stick, buffs herself for as many times you can pay 1R (targeting your own creatures or theirs) and gets to EOT Ping and next turn Mind Control anything that's too big to just kill. Plus she flies. Really good in a deck when you've got spare mana and totally dominates vs. creature decks, but doesn't do much if they don't run creatures.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Huh ... think I found some new tech for BUG-Fit lists with Intuition in the form of Rune Snag. Since most BUG-Fit lists rely on some recursive engine to control the board state, using Intuition to super-charge Rune Snag grants those lists a hardly-soft counterspell that's easy on color requirements both early and late game. Thoughts?

[fireiced]

I only have 2 huntmasters, is there an alternative to number 3?



I only have 1 :p

Grab those cards you get in packs together with DFC from DKA where you can mark the DFC on it for drafts. Mark it with Huntmaster and take out all huntmasters like I do and not play more than 2 in play [since you only own 2]

[Cire_dk]

I only have 1 :p

Grab those cards you get in packs together with DFC from DKA where you can mark the DFC on it for drafts. Mark it with Huntmaster and take out all huntmasters like I do and not play more than 2 in play [since you only own 2]

Sounds Logical ?! :rolleyes:

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I only have 1 :p

Grab those cards you get in packs together with DFC from DKA where you can mark the DFC on it for drafts. Mark it with Huntmaster and take out all huntmasters like I do and not play more than 2 in play [since you only own 2]

Don't do that, as you will be playing with an illegal Deck. You have to be able to represent all the DFC cards in your deck with their copies. If you own one Huntmaster, play only one. Random deckchecks or suspicious opponents will give you major trouble otherwise.

[Arianrhod]

How does Vandalblast instead of Pulverize sound for a Wish target?

Horrible. MUD absolutely loves dropping Chalice of the Void @ 1, and to the best of my knowledge, that stops Vandalblast, since its overload isn't doing something like putting additional copies on the stack (Shattering Spree). It's a good thought, but Chalice is one of the major reasons I'm running Pulverize. Losing two lands for it does definitely hurt, but the plan is that it hurts MUD (and to a lesser level of caring, affinity) a whole hell of a lot worse.


@Arianrhod: Congrats on the finish! Ill hopefully be at the next mythic legacy event with rector fit. I traded dredge, minus the LEDs, for a signed english moat so I will finally feel good not playing an suboptimal list.

@CRich: You should try the last rector list Arianrhod posted, Ive been using the same thing without the rusulka and really liking it. It just feels and plays "right". You drop 1 for 1 creature removal for more ramp (tribe elders) and the deck really shines. You can skip the 1 for 1 trades and just deed everything, or drop bombs with the mana you get!

I would never drop pulse/vindicate for abrupt decay. Their #1 use is killing jace and other big scary things deed has a harder time with (batterskull, MUD stuff, etc) which abupt decay cant do. Not to mention that they can hit tokens and lands respectively.

If we had trouble with RUG or countertop, I could justify abupt decay, but the white and red variants at least doesn't really.

/Barn.

Although I will say that Starved Rusalka has a place in my deck until such time as they print a 1-2 drop that has Sacrifice a Creature: X as an ability (aka, not paying a mana to activate). Rusalka is fine a G, sac: X, because it's a 1-drop. Having the ability to turn all of my Green Suns into sac outlets for an onboard Rector or Veteran has been absolutely huge for me.

Decay belongs in blue decks, and nowhere else. It does something blue versions care about a whole great deal: it kills Lord of Atlantis and Master of the Pearl Trident, and gives absolutely 0 fucks while doing so. It even slices through Kira's shield, if they're still running that guy. Blue cares about this; red and white really don't.

Also, I look forward to seeing you there. Depends on what date they set, as usual, but I am certainly planning on making it.


Sorry for the double post, but I just took a closer look at the list.

1) Add a Fierce Empath. You've got two 6-drops neither of which are tutorable. You'll like GSZ more when you can GSZ for three, get an Empath and a 6-drop (or your Angel of Despair). No point relying on a top deck when you can make your own luck.
2) Drop a Faiths Fetters for the Moat. Fetters is good, but I've never wanted > 1 (especially running 3 Rectors).
3) Diversify your removal. Decay is nice, but it mostly doesn't touch Planeswalkers or lands. I'd add a Vindicate as it can remove Jace and annoying lands.
4) I'd cut down on Plowshares too. Deed >> Plowshares.

Another reason to go w/ Yosei is it'll help your mana. I'm running Yosei, Sun Titan, Moat, Sigarda, Baneslayer, Elspeth which all take WW. Having fewer BB things (only Arena in my deck) makes things easier to cast because you can lean more heavily in those colored lands. You're heavy on white spells but light on white lands. I run 2x of the duals (slightly different from Arianrhod but he's also on 6 duals). I suggest that number if not that distribution, but at a minimum swing one of your swamps to a plains.

/Barn.

Not running Empath is probably the single biggest issue with your list, and is definitely why you don't like Green Sun as much. Consider this common line of play:

GSZ@3: Fierce Empath -> Sun Titan.
Sac Empath to whatever (Phy Tower, Therapy, block with him, Nightmare, etc).
Sun Titan -> Empath -> Yosei.

There are very few legacy decks that can deal with 2 simultaneous 6-drops. That's just so much raw power, and legacy isn't tuned for it. Legacy decks are tuned for efficiency, not power -- the exact opposite of what we're bringing to the table.

Tl;dr version: I actually don't enjoy tooting my own horn, but there's a reason my Rector list is set up the way it is. I don't really know how many hours of my life I've sunk into that deck, and I probably shouldn't think about it at risk of losing my sanity. I'll just channel Bryant Cook here and say that if you're not playing my list for Rector, then that's fine -- but you had better have a good reason for doing so. Note that if you do have a good reason, by all means explain it to me. I'll be happy to reply with why you're wrong, or you might even change my mind =) I'm always willing to listen.

I'm going to do a little brewing here today and see if I can't put up a sample list for the Future Sight variant. I am very desirous of getting that in motion...partially because I'm on an enormous BUG kick at the moment. I'm playing the most hideous pile I think I've ever brewed tonight at my local, featuring Shardless Agent, Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, and Goyf in the same deck (and no Veterans, which is why you won't hear anything more from me on it). It's going to be a train wreck. But my god, will I draw cards. ALL OF THE CARDS. Also on my to-do list tonight: Snapping a Hymn. Because that's FUNNY.

[Star|Scream]

Can I just say that jace-bouncing a threat and then making them discard said threat with Liliana (set at one or two) is one of the greatest feelings in the game?

[kabards]

I just got back from SCG Cincy with GBW Rector Fit and did absolutely horrible going 0-3-1. Most games I lost were because of bad choices. But UWR Miracles are a lot easier to play against that UW. I actually should of won that game. I was reading some posts and had some questions.


2. Anyone fit in Abrupt Decay? I took out Maelstrom Pulse in mine, only regretted it once.


Abrupt Decay fits very well in Punishing Nic-Fit in my opinion and also with my own experience :laugh:

[Arianrhod]

Here's my brew. This is 50 cards before land, so obviously some hefty trimming has to be done. But I wanted to get out the list of everything that I would ideally want, and then it can be shaved down from there into a playable deck.


4x Veteran Explorer
3x Coiling Oracle
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Trinket Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Karn Liberated

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Future Sight
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Elixir of Immortality

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Grim Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Regrowth
3x Green Sun's Zenith

4x Brainstorm
2x Gifts Ungiven
3x Counterspell


The only utility lands I would include would be Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold for their absurd synergy with Future Sight effects, and possibly Coffers/Urborg if we wanted to get really spicy, because that would probably enable a lot of game wins just via drawing a ton of cards off FutureTop until either hitting the combo, or just like, draw 9 iterations of Top, Tendrils FTW, without needing Helm.

So yeah -- there's my rough thoughts pre-trimming down to 38.

[Maverick777]

I am Steve the guy who was running Kevin's rector build this past Saturday I technically went 3-2 I did make a few mistakes which is to be seen considering it was my First real tournament with the deck. The list is solid the only thing I am not so sure about is the aven mindcensors but do not know what I put in for it. I will be taking this deck to SCG providence and will be posting the results.

[waSP]

Why not play Academy Rector with Future Sight?

Here's my first draft at it that was down to 61 cards:

Filtering/search/CA (9)
3 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Non-blue spells (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Karn Liberated
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

Enchantments (6)
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Moat

Creature base (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Starved Rusalka

23 lands
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 City of Brass
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra

I don't think the Future Sight combo kill is necessary (nor Oracle of Mul Daya). Oracle could be good in the blue decks though. Another way to make crazy good card advantage with Top and Brainstorm and Jace. BUG Oracle control could be very cute.

[Zirath]

Is Regrowth actually better than Noxious Revival? For the purpose of Gifts and in the case of Future Sight, I think you can get away with Noxious many times more than E-Wit or Regrowth.

I guess there's too much manipulation/tutoring. I'll think about it.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Danger of being to cute:

With Rector and Future Sight alongside Brainstorm, what are your thoughts on a singleton Omniscience?

Reminds me a bit of the old old lists with Debtors Knell ;)

I am intrigued by those ideas, as i was working on BUG fit for some days and will do some more after tomorrow (Bachelor finished etc.)

[kabards]

Here's my new list that i will be playing this coming sunday with a prize of Php6,000 converted to $144.93.

Punishing Nic-Fit

Creatures : 13

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan <--- i think better than Olivia Voldaren

Spells : Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact : 25

4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Shriekmaw <-- Revision due to SnT decks
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

[Arianrhod]

Is Regrowth actually better than Noxious Revival? For the purpose of Gifts and in the case of Future Sight, I think you can get away with Noxious many times more than E-Wit or Regrowth.

I guess there's too much manipulation/tutoring. I'll think about it.

I think it is, since you get the card immediately. With Explorers, Future Sight, -and- Oracle of Mul Daya chugging along, the deck shouldn't care about the extra two mana for the immediacy. As I think about it, though, sitting here, if Future Sight is active, Revival is WAY better. I was thinking of Gifts from the perspective that it would be used primarily to establish Future Sight, and I completely missed that. You're right -- if Gifts ends up staying, then I think that Revival definitely gets the nod. Good call.

I want to say that some space could be opened up int he cantrip dept...Brainstorm probably isn't necessary. But it's so good with Oracle in particular that it's hard to say no to it.


Danger of being to cute:

With Rector and Future Sight alongside Brainstorm, what are your thoughts on a singleton Omniscience?

Reminds me a bit of the old old lists with Debtors Knell ;)

I am intrigued by those ideas, as i was working on BUG fit for some days and will do some more after tomorrow (Bachelor finished etc.)

Something to keep in mind: Omniscience only works with spells cast from your hand, not just spells you cast. I originally thought that it would be the literal shit, too, but sadly it's not a favorable interaction. I mean I guess you could do worse than Omni in a Rector deck, but blue has a lot of other really fucking stupid enchantments (Cast Through Time, anyone?) that can be Rectored in to do equally silly things. I think that shoehorning Omni into a Nic Fit deck would be pretty horrible...at that point, just go play RectorOmniTell, or whatever the hell it's being called.

I'm not sure about the white splash, but I think that WaSP's starting point is a good one if we wanted to go down the 4c/City of Brass.dec path.

[Star|Scream]

Arianrhod: I don't like the trinket mage stuff because it can't tutor any of your big combo pieces. You'd have to up the top-count, though if you removed it.

If you put palinchron in you can nightmare loop into tendrils without hitting a future sight. If I'm not mistaken even with spells costing only 1, you still need to cast 9 of them in a turn to lethal tendrils, right? So you need to have 10 lands out to combo off? With Palinchron you don't have to worry about that.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Something to keep in mind: Omniscience only works with spells cast from your hand, not just spells you cast. I originally thought that it would be the literal shit, too, but sadly it's not a favorable interaction.

Thanks for pointing this out, reading is tech ;) So if going infinite is a plan it either has to be done with Palinchron/Whale or Helm right?

[Arianrhod]

Thanks for pointing this out, reading is tech ;) So if going infinite is a plan it either has to be done with Palinchron/Whale or Helm right?

So far as I'm aware, correct. I'm sure there are some really atrocious combos that exist, but as far as ones that are compact and fit the ethic of the deck, I think those are the only two.


Arianrhod: I don't like the trinket mage stuff because it can't tutor any of your big combo pieces. You'd have to up the top-count, though if you removed it.

If you put palinchron in you can nightmare loop into tendrils without hitting a future sight. If I'm not mistaken even with spells costing only 1, you still need to cast 9 of them in a turn to lethal tendrils, right? So you need to have 10 lands out to combo off? With Palinchron you don't have to worry about that.

Future Sight + EE/Ruins seems really devastating. Also, Mage is a creature for Diabolic Intent and a shuffle for Future Sight (getting another Shuffle in Elixir). Mage might be overkill, I dunno. In contrast to Timur, apparently, Trinket Mage is one of my all-time favorite cards, so I'm naturally biased towards it.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding the combo. Spells don't cost only 1, they cost 1 less. Ergo:

Future Sight / Magus in play: You activate Top, drawing a card and putting Top on Top of your deck. FS says you can play cards from the top of your deck, Helm says 1 cheaper, so you can just play the Top for free from the top of your deck, tap it to draw again, and so on, cycling through your entire deck, generating a storm count for every draw.

[TheArchitect]

Ive been secretly hoping future sight would somehow make it into this deck. Its always been one of my favorite cards. Also, I wish Form of the dragon was playable :(

While were on the topic of big stupid enchantments; Im suprised this hasnt been brought up much: Take Possession. Simply as a SB (or even MD) option of the BUG lists. It saw some play to help the landstill mirrors a few years ago, but I havent seen it around here yet. You bring it in against jace.dec and just let them power up jace and scupt there hand full of creature removal and counterspells only to steal their jace and kill them when they get to 12/13 loyalty. Now adays it would also be disgusting against omnitell as well.

[Zirath]

Future Sight + EE/Ruins seems really devastating. Also, Mage is a creature for Diabolic Intent and a shuffle for Future Sight (getting another Shuffle in Elixir). Mage might be overkill, I dunno. In contrast to Timur, apparently, Trinket Mage is one of my all-time favorite cards, so I'm naturally biased towards it.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding the combo. Spells don't cost only 1, they cost 1 less. Ergo:

Future Sight / Magus in play: You activate Top, drawing a card and putting Top on Top of your deck. FS says you can play cards from the top of your deck, Helm says 1 cheaper, so you can just play the Top for free from the top of your deck, tap it to draw again, and so on, cycling through your entire deck, generating a storm count for every draw.

I tried trimming the list you had a little and I'm going to fool with it a little today at the store. I'm trying a tutor light build and I'll give Trinket Mage a try even if it's a card I'm not excited about. I'm also trying a single Snapcaster Mage to see if it generates any extra value. I'll post later with more information about how it runs.