[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

I tried trimming the list you had a little and I'm going to fool with it a little today at the store. I'm trying a tutor light build and I'll give Trinket Mage a try even if it's a card I'm not excited about. I'm also trying a single Snapcaster Mage to see if it generates any extra value. I'll post later with more information about how it runs.

Sweet. I look forward to hearing how it went =)

[vilnico]

Hi there,

I finally find a place where Nic Fit interest people !
(not really considered a deck where I live ^^)
Couldn't read everything yet, but sure this thread is rich of experience and splashes.

Been playing GBw so far, mostly Rector / Sun Titan stuff. Don't think Grave Titan is needed in BGw, prefer to pack some Elspeth and Lingering Souls, to rock some UW Miracles.
Never liked Pod's list (I just HATE Birthing Pod - I am one of those Survival nostalgic, can't be helped I guess).
@Architect : I used to play Form of the Dragon before Delver came around, it sure was fun ! But Eldrazi Conscription is a LOT more fun :D
edit : you made me discover Take Possession, OMG gonna try that !!!

Currently playing GBw Omniscience list, which I believe is ok. Didn't really have time to experiment it, did a 4-2 in a 50 player tournament, ending 9th :(
(Had a 5-4 in GP Ghent with a first draft list, but without really focusing on last rounds)
Quite happy of it so far. If any people interested, let me know I would happily share. (But it only has the Nic Fit core, and is more combo oriented)

I dream of playing Future Sight in that deck, but preferably in Rector build. I might try it BGu some day though.
Not really into red splash, but I might test it sometime as well because of Bonfire of the Damned and Dreadbore (as Jace is our Archenemy)

Hope to share a lot with you guys !

[Viridia]

I actually played with a 4 color build 1 tournament for shit and giggles, with 3 Rectors, 2 Living Wishes, Omniscience, and Diabolic Intents, basically making Rector -> sac to Intent an instant win by searching Omniscience, Living Wish into Emrakul :D

[HoneyT]

Finally have some time to sit at a computer and share some thoughts!

First of all, welcome to the thread vilnico! We have great discussions here and tons of players with a wealth of knowledge about the archetype. This is easily one of the most active/best threads on here and I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we look forward to working with you!

@kabards:

A few changes I recommend to your list:

-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deranged Hermit
-1 Grave Titan
-1 Abrupt Decay

+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
+1 Primeval Titan
+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Kessig Wolf Run

I was playing P-Fire Nic Fit for quite a while, and let me tell you: Thrun + Kessig Wolf Run is a HOUSE. The Titan fetches the Groves or Wolf Run for you. He's miles better than Grave Titan in P-Fire. You can easily cut back on the Abrupt Decays in this version because it's so full of removal as is. Give it a try. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

@Future Sight:

The moment I heard those two words mentioned in this thread, I immediately came up with a list. This is the maindeck I'm at right now. (It's actually pretty similar to Arianrhod's first draft)

Lands (23)

1 Academy Ruins
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (13)

2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Trinket Mage
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (25)

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Executioner's Capsule
2 Future Sight
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vraska the Unseen

I didn't have the combo kill in there. I definitely think there's some merit to it. These lists are otherwise lacking in ways to close a match in time. I agree that something like this could be pretty damn good though. Testing will tell!

[HoneyT]

Apologies for the double post, but I just came across this sweet list courtesy of Vacrix on The Source. Seems interesting enough to discuss. The list:

Business - 11

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

Acceleration - 20

4 Bubbling Muck
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection - 8

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Autumn's Veil

Artifact IMS - 8

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Land - 13

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Deathmark
3 Drop of Honey
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip

Nic Fit Storm. He's calling it VANT

[Kich867]

Apologies for the double post, but I just came across this sweet list courtesy of Vacrix on The Source. Seems interesting enough to discuss. The list:

A deck that runs Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy isn't a nic-fit deck, it just runs that ramp engine.

Nic fit, despite it not being obvious what with the massive quantities of colors and lists running around, is first and foremost a board control / ramp deck. While I'm sure it's an interesting list, you also mentioned that it's already been posted on The Source by Vacrix--probably in the appropriate thread. I think discussion for it should be left there.

[Zirath]

So I played a few games with my list today.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Wood Elves
1 Magus of the Future
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Eternal Witness
2 Trinket Mage
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Mana Leak
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Helm of Awakening
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Expedition Map
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Future Sight
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

So my thoughts after playing a bunch of games is that Trinket Mage definitely felt durdly. I would cut to 1; I prefer extra tops because they can generate Storm with Helm. There was a game I won where I cast Tendrils for 3 copies to knock my opponent to 4 and he died from there. Green Sun's Zenith felt underwhelming, but that was a product of my creature choices. Phyrexian Tower was very important in this deck; it consistently allowed me to bridge into powerful plays.

I know changes need to be made but I'm not sure where I want to go. The Helm kill is definitely something I would like to pursue. I guess primarily I need more of an end game plan.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

A deck that runs Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy isn't a nic-fit deck, it just runs that ramp engine.

Nic fit, despite it not being obvious what with the massive quantities of colors and lists running around, is first and foremost a board control / ramp deck. While I'm sure it's an interesting list, you also mentioned that it's already been posted on The Source by Vacrix--probably in the appropriate thread. I think discussion for it should be left there.

Actually a deck is Nic Fit when it plays Veteran Explorer alongside Cabal Therapy. There isn't a thread for VANT on The Source. HoneyT picked it off Storm Boards.

Lighten up, fella.

So why aren't you guys playing Matsu-Tribe Sniper?

[Greenpoe]

Has anyone tried building a FOW-Future Sight build? Use Top, Jace and Future Sight as countermeasures to the card disadvantage from Force, but still use the foundation of Vet/Therapy/GSZ and Deed to control everything on the board. Throw in Baleful Strix (card advantage+removal+Therapy target) and Coiling Oracles (mana ramp/CA+therapy target) and a couple good GSZ targets and you might have a solid build right there. Since this is Nic Fit, you could always hardcast mid/late-game Forces as well.

[Zirath]

Has anyone tried building a FOW-Future Sight build? Use Top, Jace and Future Sight as countermeasures to the card disadvantage from Force, but still use the foundation of Vet/Therapy/GSZ and Deed to control everything on the board. Throw in Baleful Strix (card advantage+removal+Therapy target) and Coiling Oracles (mana ramp/CA+therapy target) and a couple good GSZ targets and you might have a solid build right there. Since this is Nic Fit, you could always hardcast mid/late-game Forces as well.

I thought about this but had trouble fitting Force in my list.

[Qweerios]

I lost horribly today against BUG Control, UB Tez, and Hive Mind. It went as follow:

0-2 vs. BUG

My opponent Jaces me while I am holding a bunch of Deeds. I get stuck on 1 land after 1 wasteland and I lose to Jace, Garruk, and Vraska before I reach 2 lands again.

2-0 vs. Sneak Show

The pilot missplayed a lot, I shouldn't have won.

0-2 vs. Hive Mind

I lost G1 to a T2 Show n Tell on Grisselbrand -> SnT Hive Mind. I lost G2 to a T0 Leyline of Sanctity while I am holding a Therapy hand.

0-2 vs. UB Tez

Lost G1 to a topdecked Jace on T3 after I brainstormed away my second Jace. FoW backup seals it. G2 was epic but I eventualy lost to a Tez ultimate after I had stabilized at 1 life against a Karn, 2 Jaces, and 2 Tez.

Lately, Liliana has let me down. I have found myself siding in Negates a lot. I will try a more BUG-ish approach with a couple of Counterspells, another Jace, and perhaps a Vraska.

[Qweerios]

What is everybody's opinion on Counterspell vs. Rune Snag? I intend on testing a playset of one or the other as a replacement for the Trinket package.

[Cire_dk]

What is everybody's opinion on Counterspell vs. Rune Snag? I intend on testing a playset of one or the other as a replacement for the Trinket package.

Counterspell is unconditional and therefore more reliable imo.

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios -- Definitely Counterspell. The Veteran effect will likely be giving your opponent two lands, if none beyond that point, and while lategame Snags can be solid, I suspect that they'll be significantly worse than having a straight hard counter.

I just noticed something as I was looking back over your post. All of the things you lost to were noncreature spells, and you mention boarding in Negate a lot. What about putting the Negates maindeck, rather than Counterspells? The 1U vs UU argument is valid, and Negate is still a hard counter for the things that Nic Fit would tend to care about countering in the first place. Counterspell being able to hit creatures would probably only be relevant vs something like Maverick, but our Maverick matchup is the nut high anyway.

@Zirath -- Yeah, FoW sounds good in theory, but I was at 50 cards pre-trim without a parasitic 4-of. Note that I BELIEVE you can Force from the top of your deck if FoW is active, by pitching the card and paying the life. I can't track down a ruling to back that up, but I know that you can FoW in this manner from your graveyard while Yawg Will is active, so it would make sense if FS interacted similarly.

I see a profound lack of Pernicious Deed in your list, and I find this ...Vader voice... disturbing. Your argument for extra tops is a good one, and to be fair, running more Tops means having more Tops in your hand, which is a good place to be. I could see still running one, but it's possible that other tutoring options can suffice just as well.

How was your mana base? I look at it and think that 0 Bayous can't possibly be correct for a Nic Fit deck, but then I look back at Future Sight and frown. Maybe the City of Brass approach is better afterall =/

I'd definitely have Primeval Titan in, for sure. You talk about needing a clearer lategame -- well there you go. He fetches Ruins and Stronghold, and then you just sit there and win the game. He also punches for 6, unlike Expedition Map (although I do like Expedition Map as a card).

I think that with the feedback you've gathered so far, I would present my first draft as such:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan

1x Future Sight
3x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Elixir of Immortality

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Green Sun's Zenith

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Vraska the Unseen

4x Brainstorm

1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower

2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest

SB:
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gilded Drake
1x Karakas
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
3x Negate
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Carpet of Flowers



Some thoughts....

Despite being in blue, Tribe-Elder gets the nod over Coiling Oracle. Oracle doesn't synergize well with Future Sight, and Elder gives another shuffle while being a guaranteed ramp/color-fix. Tusk and Primeval are the creature-based lategame, and Tusk as a card is better than RUG's entire 75. Tusk also makes up with Grim Tutor's cutting. Vraska gives Jace some backup in keeping the field clear, while being cheaper than Karn. She's also easier to overcome than Karn, and if testing shows that the 7-drop cost isn't a problem, Karn will get the nod over her. I'd like 1 copy of both Vraska and Karn, ideally, but we'll see what testing shows. Cutting to 6 fetches hurts, but I've added other shuffle effects elsewhere, most notably the 3rd Green Sun, which seems amazing for this deck because it shuffles itself in for reuse later. Again, pending what works and what doesn't, I'd almost like a Black Sun's Zenith for the same reason.

The sideboard has a bunch of situational, cheap/free 1-ofs for Grim Tutor to find. T1 Explorer into t2 Therapy/FB/Tutor->Crypt seems unbeatable vs dredge, for example. Being able to tutor Karakas seems fine vs Sneak/Reanimator. Carpet of Flowers are industry-standard tech vs RUG, blue control, and blue combo...switching out Explorers for Carpets vs Miracles is always good, and the Carpets have the added benefit here of being able to make a pisston of mana of one color, aka blue for FS. Carpets are also solid against Merfolk, which this list would likely struggle with due to the fact that it's much more blue-centric than other BUG Fit lists. Decays kill Counterbalance with no questions asked, which is important since CBTop shuts down FSTop. Obv. good vs Fish and RUG as well.

Obviously it needs testing and whatnot, but that'll be my starting point once I get the last bits I need to actually play it.

I'll try to do some brewing with the City of Brass approach as well, since it does feel like there might be something there. Being able to cast Slaughter Games and REB while not being all-in on red as a color sounds amazing.

[Zirath]

@Zirath -- Yeah, FoW sounds good in theory, but I was at 50 cards pre-trim without a parasitic 4-of. Note that I BELIEVE you can Force from the top of your deck if FoW is active, by pitching the card and paying the life. I can't track down a ruling to back that up, but I know that you can FoW in this manner from your graveyard while Yawg Will is active, so it would make sense if FS interacted similarly.

I see a profound lack of Pernicious Deed in your list, and I find this ...Vader voice... disturbing. Your argument for extra tops is a good one, and to be fair, running more Tops means having more Tops in your hand, which is a good place to be. I could see still running one, but it's possible that other tutoring options can suffice just as well.

How was your mana base? I look at it and think that 0 Bayous can't possibly be correct for a Nic Fit deck, but then I look back at Future Sight and frown. Maybe the City of Brass approach is better afterall =/

I'd definitely have Primeval Titan in, for sure. You talk about needing a clearer lategame -- well there you go. He fetches Ruins and Stronghold, and then you just sit there and win the game. He also punches for 6, unlike Expedition Map (although I do like Expedition Map as a card).

Force could find it's way in, but it requires the removal of Deed. If you look at your cards, that is the only cards you can replace in such a way. I actually find Deed to be a naturally slow card so I was curious how often I could get away with only EE. Sometimes it worked but enough of the time I did need the sweeper.

Mana needed to be fixed. Need more green sources. There was 1 or 2 times I wished I had Bayou but overall it was not a huge issue. Your mana base looks okay but I think you need Polluted Delta since you have 2 UUU spells and 2 UU spells both of which are high priority.

The problem with Primeval Titan is he only finds Towers. While that is theoretically good, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. It's great with Future Sight out since you can reset your top but there are definitely times where just a creature isn't cutting it. Granted there's no GSZ target that will be effective at producing large amounts of card advantage (thanks a lot Kavu Climber).

I do wish there was a way to fit a card like Tidings in here. There were a couple times I had a hand of infinite lands or almost 0 cards and just wanted to draw a lot of cards.

Also why Vraska? She's a 5 mana Maelstrom Pulse in this deck. I think Garruk Relentless would be better since he can tutor for Magus.

[SirTylerGalt]

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan

1x Future Sight
3x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Elixir of Immortality

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Green Sun's Zenith

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Vraska the Unseen

4x Brainstorm

1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower

2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest

SB:
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gilded Drake
1x Karakas
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
3x Negate
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Carpet of Flowers



Hey everyone. I've gained interest in Nic Fit these last few days, and I like the idea of a BUG Future Sight version.

I have a few questions regarding your proposed list:

- how do you tutor for the one-of Helm, EE, and Elixir of Immortality, without Trinket Mage?
- are Helm / Tendrils really needed? Once you have Future Sight + Top in play, isn't the sheer card advantage enough to win? Couldn't we build the deck as a more "classical" BUG Gifts Fit version, using Future Sight as yet another bomb?

[Arianrhod]

Force could find it's way in, but it requires the removal of Deed. If you look at your cards, that is the only cards you can replace in such a way. I actually find Deed to be a naturally slow card so I was curious how often I could get away with only EE. Sometimes it worked but enough of the time I did need the sweeper.

Mana needed to be fixed. Need more green sources. There was 1 or 2 times I wished I had Bayou but overall it was not a huge issue. Your mana base looks okay but I think you need Polluted Delta since you have 2 UUU spells and 2 UU spells both of which are high priority.

The problem with Primeval Titan is he only finds Towers. While that is theoretically good, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. It's great with Future Sight out since you can reset your top but there are definitely times where just a creature isn't cutting it. Granted there's no GSZ target that will be effective at producing large amounts of card advantage (thanks a lot Kavu Climber).

I do wish there was a way to fit a card like Tidings in here. There were a couple times I had a hand of infinite lands or almost 0 cards and just wanted to draw a lot of cards.

Also why Vraska? She's a 5 mana Maelstrom Pulse in this deck. I think Garruk Relentless would be better since he can tutor for Magus.

Vraska isn't just a repeatable Pulse -- she's also a solid late-game win condition on her own merits. I've been testing her in the sideboard of Rector, and when she resolves, she's really hard to surmount. I do still believe Karn to be better if testing reveals that the mana can handle. It looks like it can, but I want to be sure first.

Skeletal Scrying? I feel like that would overload the life gain, though. The only other really viable options are something like Arena, Staff of Nin, etc....howling mine type effects. Every time I've tried Harmonize or any of its brethren, I've just been disappointed.

I think that the missing "card advantage GSZ dude" will be given to us come Gatecrash. That sounds exactly like something Simic wants to be doing. Until then, at least, I don't think we can do better than Prime Time. It's also relevant that he gets Academy Ruins, which provides a Pernicious Deed deck a way to keep Helm of Awakening around other than Eternal Witness. Also, don't underestimate the Two Towers -- once Phyrexian/Volrath's are online together in a mid-late game scenario, it can be almost impossible to effectively deal with -- even more so with Future Sight active. Indeed, that's one reason I moved away from Recurring Nightmare with this list -- Two Towers + FS emulates it very nicely without needing to work in the deckbuilding baggage that come with Nightmare.

I usually do 3/3 out of force of habit, but I think that 4 Misty / 2 Verdant is probably closer to correct. Green fetches are sadly critical in Nic Fit, because there are a literal ton of decks where you need to be able to fetch basic Forest t1. Deltas might work better with the mid-game spells, but basic Forest is critical vs any deck that does not run Wasteland.

And yeah, it probably comes down to Force vs Deed -- and I'll side with Deed every time. It is a slow card, I'll grant, but it's also a match made in heaven with this deck [Nic Fit the archetype]. Deed's the reason Nic Fit is a good deck, IMO.


Hey everyone. I've gained interest in Nic Fit these last few days, and I like the idea of a BUG Future Sight version.

I have a few questions regarding your proposed list:

- how do you tutor for the one-of Helm, EE, and Elixir of Immortality, without Trinket Mage?
- are Helm / Tendrils really needed? Once you have Future Sight + Top in play, isn't the sheer card advantage enough to win? Couldn't we build the deck as a more "classical" BUG Gifts Fit version, using Future Sight as yet another bomb?

With Top and Future Sight going, along with the copious shuffles and Brainstorm effects in this deck, it's actually pretty easy to find one-ofs, especially when they're something like Elixir that you don't really need to find quickly. Also, Grim Tutor is a beast. You only really need one EE, because once it's active you'll never need another one (Academy Ruins). You can also think of it as the 4th Deed, if you'd like.

I'm favored towards Helm/Tendrils because I know from Scapewish how powerful it can be to have a "I win" button. Playing an essentially fair deck that suddenly turns unfair is a concept that I've been trying to port from Vintage for a while now, and only achieved success so far in Scapewish. It's obv. easier in Vintage because you can take any blue deck, shove a Yawg Will and a Tendrils in it, and suddenly you can just go oops lategame. But that's basically the goal of the Helm/Tendrils. There will be many games, as well, where you can just mini-Tendrils someone out of the game, or buy a crucial turn or two. The Elixir is included so that you don't feel guilty about doing this -- you can always recycle it for later. If we wanted to go more all-in on the combo, we could include more Helms, but I feel that a 1-of to just go "oops, I win," is sufficient.

I'll mention that I tried to shoehorn FS into a "classic" BUG control Fit build for a while, but it didn't really do much for me. I think that FS needs to be focused around a little bit more to really draw out its power.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

The following is a reflection of my own experience with the various no-sac-outlet ramp options.

Two things every nosac manadork needs: it's needs to be green and therefore Zenithable, and it needs to be able to make mana each turn given the appropriate conditions. This includes, but not limited to:

Dryad Arbor
Arbor Elf
Birds of Paradise
Deathrite Shaman
Noble Hierarch
Sakura-Tribe Elder

Each of these have their own perks and quirks. Dryad Arbor is the cheapest to Zenith for and can be fetched with Fetchlands, but is a land itself so playing it from the hand slows you down. Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, although unable to contribute much to the clock, are perhaps the most consistent mana-fixers available. Deathrite Shaman is a jack of all trades, able to gain life, take life, and ramp, but is difficult to maintain consistency. Sakura-Tribe Elder, although it costs the most to zenith for, it is probably the least susceptible to removal.

And then my favorite: Arbor Elf. As we all know, one of the biggest perks of playing with Legacy are the amazing options for building a manabase with--in other words, the dual lands and, for budget variants, the shocklands. Therefore, Arbor Elf becomes a Birds of Paradise for your colors as long as your dual lands have the forest subtype. The most notable weakness of this creature is the susceptibility to nonbasic hate.

TL;DR: Each manadork has it's own flaws or traits. My personal favorite atm is Arbor Elf.

[Arianrhod]

The following is a reflection of my own experience with the various no-sac-outlet ramp options.

Two things every nosac manadork needs: it's needs to be green and therefore Zenithable, and it needs to be able to make mana each turn given the appropriate conditions. This includes, but not limited to:

Dryad Arbor
Arbor Elf
Birds of Paradise
Deathrite Shaman
Noble Hierarch
Sakura-Tribe Elder

Each of these have their own perks and quirks. Dryad Arbor is the cheapest to Zenith for and can be fetched with Fetchlands, but is a land itself so playing it from the hand slows you down. Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, although unable to contribute much to the clock, are perhaps the most consistent mana-fixers available. Deathrite Shaman is a jack of all trades, able to gain life, take life, and ramp, but is difficult to maintain consistency. Sakura-Tribe Elder, although it costs the most to zenith for, it is probably the least susceptible to removal.

And then my favorite: Arbor Elf. As we all know, one of the biggest perks of playing with Legacy are the amazing options for building a manabase with--in other words, the dual lands and, for budget variants, the shocklands. Therefore, Arbor Elf becomes a Birds of Paradise for your colors as long as your dual lands have the forest subtype. The most notable weakness of this creature is the susceptibility to nonbasic hate.

TL;DR: Each manadork has it's own flaws or traits. My personal favorite atm is Arbor Elf.

The problem that I have with Arbor Elf is that it gets shafted by Wasteland. I mean, if you have a lot of decks that don't run Waste in your meta, then Arbor Elf is fine -- but Waste in resp. to untapping a land has to be about the worst thing ever.

Also, as far as commonly played options go, you forgot Wood Elves, which is the most expensive to Zenith out, but also has far and away the most powerful effect.

[Zirath]

Vraska isn't just a repeatable Pulse -- she's also a solid late-game win condition on her own merits. I've been testing her in the sideboard of Rector, and when she resolves, she's really hard to surmount. I do still believe Karn to be better if testing reveals that the mana can handle. It looks like it can, but I want to be sure first.

Skeletal Scrying? I feel like that would overload the life gain, though. The only other really viable options are something like Arena, Staff of Nin, etc....howling mine type effects. Every time I've tried Harmonize or any of its brethren, I've just been disappointed.

I think that the missing "card advantage GSZ dude" will be given to us come Gatecrash. That sounds exactly like something Simic wants to be doing. Until then, at least, I don't think we can do better than Prime Time. It's also relevant that he gets Academy Ruins, which provides a Pernicious Deed deck a way to keep Helm of Awakening around other than Eternal Witness. Also, don't underestimate the Two Towers -- once Phyrexian/Volrath's are online together in a mid-late game scenario, it can be almost impossible to effectively deal with -- even more so with Future Sight active. Indeed, that's one reason I moved away from Recurring Nightmare with this list -- Two Towers + FS emulates it very nicely without needing to work in the deckbuilding baggage that come with Nightmare.

I usually do 3/3 out of force of habit, but I think that 4 Misty / 2 Verdant is probably closer to correct. Green fetches are sadly critical in Nic Fit, because there are a literal ton of decks where you need to be able to fetch basic Forest t1. Deltas might work better with the mid-game spells, but basic Forest is critical vs any deck that does not run Wasteland.

And yeah, it probably comes down to Force vs Deed -- and I'll side with Deed every time. It is a slow card, I'll grant, but it's also a match made in heaven with this deck [Nic Fit the archetype]. Deed's the reason Nic Fit is a good deck, IMO.

I just don't fully see what Vraska's doing. Like if the game stalls to where you can get her ult off, you should have already won. I can see it working a little better in Rector but you also have multiple hard stalling mechanisms while here we have a bunch of mana dorks to block with.

Karn seems like too much. Karn actually requires immense speed to use effectively because he can't deal with overdeveloped boards. He can easily deal with 2-3 creatures against something like Maverick but it is impossible for him to stop a deck like Goblins or Affinity from going critical. At best you would be casting him on 3 and most likely with little back up.

I'll think about that last slot. I feel like I'd want another card to contribute to the combo.

Also I noticed you cut Trinket Mage. Was this an accident?

[Arianrhod]

I just don't fully see what Vraska's doing. Like if the game stalls to where you can get her ult off, you should have already won. I can see it working a little better in Rector but you also have multiple hard stalling mechanisms while here we have a bunch of mana dorks to block with.

Karn seems like too much. Karn actually requires immense speed to use effectively because he can't deal with overdeveloped boards. He can easily deal with 2-3 creatures against something like Maverick but it is impossible for him to stop a deck like Goblins or Affinity from going critical. At best you would be casting him on 3 and most likely with little back up.

I'll think about that last slot. I feel like I'd want another card to contribute to the combo.

Also I noticed you cut Trinket Mage. Was this an accident?

Nope. I came to the same conclusion that it just isn't as good as I want it to be, and more Tops are just better. Plus, Grim Tutor serves the same goal at the same mana cost, and better.

Vraska is good because she can make it really hard for a deck to recover from Deed. Like, think about Maverick. Usually you crack Deed, and they are either out of cards in hand, or they have like a Knight or something. They drop it, you drop Vraska. Now they have to drop two creatures at once to even be able to get something through, and that's discounting anything that you're doing. The way I like to think of Vraska is that, while she won't help you regain control, she'll ensure that you never lose it once you do have it.

Karn's much the same way, except that he can also eat their hand, and he grows -stupid- fast. Like he has so much loyalty that he can't really be killed if you're smart with him / you have backup for him. I think that he's the same as Vraska, except bigger and splashier. His ult, properly set up, will win the game -- and you only have to use his ult if you're in danger of losing in the first place. Otherwise he just sits there being a tank, eating everything you don't like. But yeah, I will definitely concede that neither is good at helping you gain control; only ensuring that you never lose control.

[Zirath]

Nope. I came to the same conclusion that it just isn't as good as I want it to be, and more Tops are just better. Plus, Grim Tutor serves the same goal at the same mana cost, and better.

Vraska is good because she can make it really hard for a deck to recover from Deed. Like, think about Maverick. Usually you crack Deed, and they are either out of cards in hand, or they have like a Knight or something. They drop it, you drop Vraska. Now they have to drop two creatures at once to even be able to get something through, and that's discounting anything that you're doing. The way I like to think of Vraska is that, while she won't help you regain control, she'll ensure that you never lose it once you do have it.

Karn's much the same way, except that he can also eat their hand, and he grows -stupid- fast. Like he has so much loyalty that he can't really be killed if you're smart with him / you have backup for him. I think that he's the same as Vraska, except bigger and splashier. His ult, properly set up, will win the game -- and you only have to use his ult if you're in danger of losing in the first place. Otherwise he just sits there being a tank, eating everything you don't like. But yeah, I will definitely concede that neither is good at helping you gain control; only ensuring that you never lose control.

I have an issue with that fact; part of the reason to play these high investment spells is that they allow you to maintain control if you are trying to play a control deck. There just seems to me to be many situations where they are too slow or too narrow.

[sherko7]

Hi guys, don't know if this fits here but I am playtesting this list at the moment:

4 Birthing Pod
1 Bone Shredder
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Plague Spitter
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Built this from the ground up and playtesting on Cockatrice. I really want to port Birthing Pod into Legacy and Nic Fit seems to be a NICE FIT. :tongue:
I've seen a few lists trying to run it in a Nic Fit shell as well. I love how Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks synergize with Birthing Pod. I'm planning to add up more Geists but I can't seem to find room for it. -1 StP probably. Thoughts?

[Qweerios]

I don't think Negate in the main are a good idea. I would rather bite the bullet and risk the double blue of Counterspell.

Also, this might be stupid or genius, I don't know yet, but I've had a flash of insight:

What do you guys think of Pongify? It's kinda awesome with Explorer...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Also, this might be stupid or genius, I don't know yet, but I've had a flash of insight:

What do you guys think of Pongify? It's kinda awesome with Explorer...



I ran it in my own deck back when it was printed. It was actually surprisingly good, since it gives you the option of using it for removal or as a combat trick. It's not quite as good since M10, but it still has essentially the same applications. At this point, I'd just wonder whether it was worth the slots; Decay is better, and I'm not sure what you'd cut for it.

[Kanti]

I'm just getting into this deck. Looks like a fucking pile but it plays like a beast. I'm going with the Scapeshift version since Midrange-Combo sounds like the coolest goddamn archetype in all of Magic.

Quick question to Arianhood, would you mind telling me how you side with the Scapeshift version? I'm guessing +3 REB's vs RUG and SnT, and you keep them out vs Miracles? And you add Thoughtseize vs combo and Miracles, siding out Bonfire?

Since the sb is mostly a wishboard it's a lot easier to sb, but help a fellow Nic-Fit noobie out ;D!

[Kanti]

wont let me edit my goddamn posts. sorry for the double post.

Would it be smart to add a Dryad Arbor over a Forest in the deck, since we run GSZ? Or are we saving GSZs for bigger and better things?

And how do you feel about cutting a swamp for a Verdant Catacomb? Getting stuck without a green sucks, and the Catacombs can even fetch a red source.

[Qweerios]

Here is my attempt at a more BUG Control Nic Fit deck:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime

Spells (28)
2 Pongify
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Engineered Plague
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse


This is probably the lowest curve Nic Fit deck I've ever made, and the most blue heavy.

PS: Pongify on Thragtusk...

[Arianrhod]

Man, everything's new and shiny with the forum software and I'm not sure I like it because it's different -.-

Anywho, moving on...

@Qweerios -- I can't believe I'm saying this (Rusalka moment), but I actually like Pongify. The biggest problem I've -always- had with Innocent Blood, as I've said many times previously, is that you don't get to kill what you really want to kill. They'll just sac their Dryad Arbor or unflipped Delver or whatever, instead of what you actually want to kill. Pongify is removal, but it's also Cabal Therapy 5 & 6 with regards to killing Explorer, and it nets you a blocker for your troubles. The only real issue with it is that I feel your deck could benefit from a few creatures with 4+ on the ass end so that you don't have any risk of getting punched down by apes. It's sweet with Thragtusk, for sure, but it's also kind of awkward against Thragtusk, since the Ape trades with the Tusk. Obv. Deeds/Vraska/Jace/etc, but I'm not sure I like your creature base...especially without Primeval Titan. I'm very surprised to see you cut him, especially given how much work PrimeTime -> Two Towers has done for you in the past. The only real issue that I think this list has from a theoretical point of view is that I can see if running out of gas really quickly because its curve is so low compared to other Nic Fit decks. You still have the acceleration, but because you have Accel with a lower curve, you'll burn through your cards more quickly.

Random observation: is your curve getting low enough for Dark Confidant? You're kind of in the vintage range now....vintage decks run Gush, Jace, and Force alongside Bob and don't have any real problems, although obviously life total matters less in that format. Legacy, however, has unrestricted Brainstorm to work with, and you're running Tops and Jaces which can make him better as well. Plus, if you start to get low, you can just trade him in for an ape! It's a thought, at least. Your list is the closest to being able to run Bob of any build put forth in this thread so far.

@Kanti -- Welcome to the deck =)

Dryad Arbor is a bad idea in Scapewish especially. Scapewish wants to get more lands in play, and Green Sun gives you a choice: you can either do it for 0 and get 1 land, or you can do it for 1 and get two lands. Whenever I see a Green Sun in Scapewish, it usually turns into another Explorer, depending on board state and the rest of my hand. Like if I have an Explorer and a Wood Elves or something, I'll usually use it to either grab another Explorer if I'm all-in on Scapeshift and have an outlet, a Wood Elves if I'm all in on Scapeshift and don't have an outlet, a huntmaster if I need more time or am on beatdown, or a Witness if it's lategame. If I'm vs RUG, UR, burn, etc, I'll ignore everything and just go for Thragtusk ASAP. If I'm vs like Miracles or if I ramped hard early game, I'll go for Primeval ASAP. There aren't really any scenarios with GSZ where I'd want to get Arbor. Also, most games you'll set off at least one Deed before Scapeshifting, and Arbor dies to Deed, which sets you back a land. The one and only thing that Arbor has going for it is that it can enable a t2 Wood Elves. But I don't think that's worth running it....it's almost always correct to GSZ for something else.

The 2nd Swamp has actually been fairly important. I don't like running 1-of basics in Nic Fit, because more often than not the fates will troll you and you'll have the 1-of in your hand when you need to get it. Also, Rishadan Port is a card, as is the Damnation in your board (and the two frequently overlap...where there are Ports, you'll often want Damnation). Furthermore, you want plenty of basics for Explorers to get, since your combo plan is oriented around setting off Explorers...the more that go off, the sooner you can combo, and the stronger your combo will be. You generally want to avoid getting more than 2 Mountains (basic or dual) in the early-mid game. If you draw more naturally it's not the end of the world, but you want as many in your deck as you can safely leave without hurting your mana development. That means that you have 4 Forests, 2 Swamps, and 1 Mountain (I usually grab 1 basic mountain with an Explorer just so that I have a non-waste-able Red for Wish/Bonfire/Huntmaster/etc) to work with. If you assume that you'll naturally draw one of those basics, you have 6 left in deck that you want to get, which is 3 Explorers. See where this is going?

I'm not saying that having a fetch or two wouldn't improve some opening hands. However, the miniscule chance of having that fetch in your opener is outweighed by making your land tutoring as smooth as possible in all stages of the game.

As for boarding, REBs come in vs RUG, any blue combo deck, and they do come in vs Miracles. Jace is still a problem, as with any version of Nic Fit, and REB is the single most efficient answer to Jace in the game. Countering Brainstorms can also be enormous, since they can be used to set up Miracles. Thoughtseizes basically only come in vs combo decks, but there are exceptions to that. If I'm on the play vs a control deck, I'll board in the Thoughtseizes, because that gives me an additional chance to take, say, Top from Miracles. On the draw, though, Thoughtseize isn't worth it vs a control deck. Don't forget that you can Burning Wish for Thoughtseize if you know they have something you don't want. They're in the board to be boarded in, not wished for, but never forget that you can access them from your board if necessary. I tend to play Thoughtseize like blue players do Daze...if you've played Daze, think of it that way.

I leave Bonfire in vs Miracles, actually, and board out 3 Veterans for 3 REBs. Miracles can use the basics better than we can, and we have Wood Elves as a backup ramp source. Bonfire can be really hard for them to counter, it can dome them for a ton if miracled late game, and it's a counter to both Jace (redirect the damage) and Entreat (obviously)...aka both of their win conditions. I do board out Bonfires vs combo, though, for fairly obvious reasons. Deed stays in vs LED combo, because a lot of times LED decks will just run their LEDs out for fear of discard..then you can blow them up with Deed. Also, LED decks either run Empty the Warrens or are Dredge with Bridge from Below -- both things Deed eats. Note that boarding in REB vs Dredge isn't a horrible idea if they're LED dredge, because you can counter their Breakthrough, and you can destroy their Narcomoebas if they pass priority. It isn't -enormously- useful, but Scapewish basically looks at Dredge and screams YOLO at the top of its lungs, so you need whatever edge you can get.

@Sherko -- Snap-add an Academy Rector and a Recurring Nightmare to that deck ASAP. Easy access to Rector (and thus to Nightmare) is one of the strongest dimensions of Pod builds of Nic Fit, especially since your gy and deck are stocked with things that really abuse Nightmare. Swords is pretty weak in your deck, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over cutting all of them. You have creature-based removal with Bone Shredder, and you have Pernicious Deed. Pod is going to make an obnoxious enough board state that it doesn't need targeted removal as much as some other builds do. Also, I would consider Sun Titan. Again, Pod can easily access him, and has a ton of ways to break him. I feel like I'm overlooking something really obvious, but I can't think of what it is. If I think of it later, I'll post again with that information.

@Zirath -- Honestly, Future Fit needs tested before we'll know for sure on which side the coin lands. The archetype is so versatile that it's impossible to say with any confidence whether this specific version wants the "big walkers" or not. I'm inclined to think yes, because it gives the deck an added late-game oomph. But, it's entirely possible that it doesn't need it, can't survive until that point anyway, etc etc. Unfortunately, I'm not going to really have a chance to run it at all until next Tuesday -- I'm taking this weekend off from Magic, since I've been either out of town or at work without a day off for over a month, with at least a month of the same staring me in the face. I'm planning on sitting on my ass writing, playing League, and watching Doctor Who the entire weekend. I'm fine sitting here and debating theory, but I think that we're at the point where it just needs tested...theory isn't going to buy us much, if anything, until we know what works and what doesn't =(

Unrelatedly, you going up to Providence with Steve/Rob/etc?

[Zirath]

@Zirath -- Honestly, Future Fit needs tested before we'll know for sure on which side the coin lands. The archetype is so versatile that it's impossible to say with any confidence whether this specific version wants the "big walkers" or not. I'm inclined to think yes, because it gives the deck an added late-game oomph. But, it's entirely possible that it doesn't need it, can't survive until that point anyway, etc etc. Unfortunately, I'm not going to really have a chance to run it at all until next Tuesday -- I'm taking this weekend off from Magic, since I've been either out of town or at work without a day off for over a month, with at least a month of the same staring me in the face. I'm planning on sitting on my ass writing, playing League, and watching Doctor Who the entire weekend. I'm fine sitting here and debating theory, but I think that we're at the point where it just needs tested...theory isn't going to buy us much, if anything, until we know what works and what doesn't =(

Unrelatedly, you going up to Providence with Steve/Rob/etc?

I took your list and goldfished it a little bit and ended up cutting the Explosives and the Elixir for Noxious Revival (yes I went down to 60). In goldfishing it felt strong since it did allow some strong interactions with Oracle and Future Sight. I also replaced Vraska with Garruk ATM but the list feels very removal light so maybe Vraska is right. You definitely don't have the control that you get from Rector. Still feels a little clunky. Hopefully I can test with some people this coming weekend.

@Qweerios: Have you thought about a miser's Snapcaster? It interacts relatively well with a lot of your cards (like Pongify).

[Zirath]

Editing features on new forum format is broken. Can't/don't want to go to Providence. Gonna be out of town for an entire week at the end of the month so I'd rather be at home this weekend.

[sherko7]

@Arianrhod

Thanks for the suggestions! Yeah, I needed another 4 drop as well. With your suggestions, here's my new list:

4 Birthing Pod
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Strangleroot Geist
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eternal Witness
1 Plague Spitter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bone Shredder
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Academy Rector
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze


I think what you (and I) overlooked is probably Ooze. Also, I decided to cut all the Planeswalkers altogether in order to fully utilize Pod. The deck also lacks the 5th-8th discard other builds have, but I don't think that will fully affect my gameplan. I'm thinking of adding in 1-2 copies of E. Tutor for getting Pod, does it seem worthwhile?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Any thoughts on Liliana Vess over Liliana of the Veil? Vess eems like a given for Future Sight decks and doesn't have that obnoxious double-sided discard, but Veil has the added benefit of being able to take down Proggy and coming down with two less mana.

[Kanti]

Another quick question, why are all the Nic-Fit builds 61 cards o_o?

[Arianrhod]

If anyone's interested, there's a SP Korean Explorer on SCG right now for just under 20. I'm not sure if anyone else is being as masochistic as I was (god it feels good to have that set done), but I figured I'd let you guys know.

[slikwilly]

Another quick question, why are all the Nic-Fit builds 61 cards o_o?

I think Arianrhod has mentioned in the past that he feels it runs smoother. Personally, running a Rector build, if there's a card that can be cut to get to 60 cards I don't know what it is.

[Arianrhod]

I think Arianrhod has mentioned in the past that he feels it runs smoother. Personally, running a Rector build, if there's a card that can be cut to get to 60 cards I don't know what it is.

Yeah. I've tried it both ways, and it runs just fine at 61. Also, Nic Fit is a deck built around tutoring...some decks have upwards of 3 different toolboxes! I would much rather have that extra bullet than lose out on the tiny fraction of a chance of having any specific card in your opening hand...especially considering how many 1-ofs we run. Furthermore, Explorer thins your deck out so quickly (as do GSZ, Sakura-Tribe, Wood Elves, etc etc etc) that past opening hands, the 61st card really ceases to matter. There have been many games where I've had fewer cards left in my deck by the end of the game than my blue opponent.

[Viridia]

With the BUG version i'm running i'm usually not very concerned about winning in time, i am however often concerned if i can manage to win before i deck myself :P

[Nihilis]

If anyone's interested, there's a SP Korean Explorer on SCG right now for just under 20. I'm not sure if anyone else is being as masochistic as I was (god it feels good to have that set done), but I figured I'd let you guys know.

I actually traded a Korean Explorer with my brother for a Gatekeeper of Malakir when I first started with Nic Fit.
Didn't realise they were worth that much. :eyebrow:

[Arianrhod]

Depends on when you started. I got my first Korean one for $1. Then $10. Then $15. Then my last one was $20, and I didn't care because it was my last one. The biggest single problem is that they're actually impossible to find, because when people were busting boxes of Korean Weatherlight, they were basically looking for Null Rod and throwing the rest out. Maybe you had some (at the time) fringe cards like Serenity or Peacekeeper, but Weatherlight, despite being a really cool set, doesn't exactly have a ton of valuable/powerful cards in it. So it's not really surprising that there isn't a huge supply of them, which drives the price up.

[Kanti]

So I was thinking, what if rather than Innocent Blood we ran Act of Treason? If you take an Emrakul you probably just win on the spot, same with Griselbrand as you can draw 7-14 right into a Therapy or Tower.

Thoughts?

edit: Or how about Consuming Vapors? It is probably too slow against SnT, since at that point you could just fetch Damnation, but hey. And shite, forgot about Emrakuls protection. Guess thats out of the question.

[PollePotDK]

I don't believe you can take Emrakul, since it has protection from colored spells and Act of Treason targets.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Kanti:

The thing about taking Emrakul is that it has to be SnT'd itself, in which case Gilded Drake is your best bet. However, if they SnT the Omniscience or Sneak Attack, you aren't getting anything other than some of Emrakul's Spiky Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html).

Like someone else said, your best bet against OmniTell or Sneaky Show is Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, or Ulamog the Infinite Gyre: basically anything that has an EtB condition that will kill either Omniscience or Emrakul/Griselbrand, regardless of the colors you run.

Also, I'd consider running Fleshbag Marauder over vapors, simply because it can be cheated into play with Show and Tell. But some kind of Edict effect is preferred simply because of Rebirth Order Progenitus.

@ No one in particular: Holy hell! Breakthrough ... Breakthrough is awesome with all the ramp we do, especially since when goldfishing I'll wind up in top deck mode often. Though, I need to expand my tools to match my toolbox of 3 JMS, 2 Vess, 2/3 Diabolic Intent, and 2/3 Breakthrough. So far I've got four slots open: I'm thinking O-Ring, Fleshbag, and two other archetype hate cards.

[Zombie]

Ulamog doesn't work, it has a cast trigger not an ETB one.

[Arianrhod]

@ Kanti:

The thing about taking Emrakul is that it has to be SnT'd itself, in which case Gilded Drake is your best bet. However, if they SnT the Omniscience or Sneak Attack, you aren't getting anything other than some of Emrakul's Spiky Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html).

Like someone else said, your best bet against OmniTell or Sneaky Show is Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, or Ulamog the Infinite Gyre: basically anything that has an EtB condition that will kill either Omniscience or Emrakul/Griselbrand, regardless of the colors you run.

Also, I'd consider running Fleshbag Marauder over vapors, simply because it can be cheated into play with Show and Tell. But some kind of Edict effect is preferred simply because of Rebirth Order Progenitus.

@ No one in particular: Holy hell! Breakthrough ... Breakthrough is awesome with all the ramp we do, especially since when goldfishing I'll wind up in top deck mode often. Though, I need to expand my tools to match my toolbox of 3 JMS, 2 Vess, 2/3 Diabolic Intent, and 2/3 Breakthrough. So far I've got four slots open: I'm thinking O-Ring, Fleshbag, and two other archetype hate cards.

@Kanti -- if you're worried about Emrakul, play Rector. Scapewish's "out" to Emrakul is BW->Slaughter Games, which is just not gonna get there every game. Scapewish is tuned for anti-fair, not anti-combo. It can certainly beat fair decks, but you have to play hella tight and you have to have a bit of luck.

@ELC -- If you're impressed by Breakthrough, I'm going to show you something else really nifty now: Read the Runes. Have fun with that xD

[Alexeezay]

BUG (Trinket Mage) Fit or Scapewish tomorrow?

My predicted meta: a lot Tribal(Goblins,Combo Elves,Merfolk) & a lot RUG Tempo/Canadian & UW Miracle
reasonable amount of Show and Tell decks, Stoneblade & Maverick
Burn, U/R Delver, Zombardment
(sometimes Dredge,Enchantress, Dragonstompy & Lands)
nearly No storm/combo decks or Midrange/Loam

[Arianrhod]

Scapewish, totally. The only actual bad matchups out of all of that are dredge and Show and Tell. You should eat everything else (assuming my list or very close).

[Kanti]

If you had to cut a card from the Scapeshift build, to go down to 60, which would it be? I ask since I find myself always wanting Explorer or Therapy in hand, and figured I'd try to go down that road. Obviously the deck has been working for you with 61, but thats another point.

I'm guessing it would be a Forest, Wood Elves, or Huntmaster? I am trying 23 lands with 3 Wood Elves. What do you think?

And how is Sylvan Library in the Scapewish version? Since it doesnt run too many fetches SDT can sometimes be lackluster. What do you think of 2 SDT/1 Library?

[Zirath]

So Steve already texted you about this at my urging but Dovescape in the Rector build. If the metagame were heavier on combo, I think it could be powerful.

[Ayotte]

Played in my first tournament with this deck, going 2-2. Played against Miracles, BUG Control, Maverick, and Belcher. I beat Miracles and Maverick, lost to Jaces in BUG (and the FoW'd Sensei's top after keeping a sketchy hand) and lost on turn 1 both games vs belcher. All those Jaces made me wish my singleton Abrupt Decay were another Pulse. Diabolic intent is the best. I totally was not expecting how good it was. Also I was happy that I played 3 Liliana, which I almost didn't do. They were a lot better in real life than on Cockatrice, since I was actually playing against real decks. I didn't like Hymn to Tourach, so I want to replace them with either 2 Thoughtseizes or another Witness and an Ooze, but I don't really want to pay for a second Ooze.

My decklist was:

3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Eternal Witnes

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Duress (want Damnation but for some reason I don't want to buy it)
1 Memoricide
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Darkblast
2 Nihil Spellbomb

[kabards]

Does anyone knows how to deal with MUD aggro? btw, im using Punishing Nic-Fit. What would be the MUD's sideboard weakness?

[SirTylerGalt]

Having played MUD for a while...

With ScapeWish: Burning Wish --> Pulverize

If you have access to red mana, Shattering Spree is good, because the Replicate copies aren't countered by Chalice of the Void.

Pernicious Deed is also good to get rid of their Chalice / mana acceleration / Wurm tokens.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

>_< I really need to decide on a build so I can actually finish it and play with it. Right now I'm on a Living Wish kick since Wishing for Angel of Despair against OmniTell seems strong enough to give us an advantage, but I'm sure I'll cycle through Intuition/Gifts, Breakthrough/Read the Runes, etc. until then.

[SirTylerGalt]

What are some good BUG Gifts lists? I liked Bruizar's take on BUG Fit with Intuition + Unburial Rites a few hundred posts ago, wondering what are the alternatives / what part of the thread I should read for the Gifts version.

[TheArchitect]

What are some good BUG Gifts lists? I liked Bruizar's take on BUG Fit with Intuition + Unburial Rites a few hundred posts ago, wondering what are the alternatives / what part of the thread I should read for the Gifts version.

I would recommend doing a search of the thread for something like "underground sea". You should find pretty much just decklists for BUG lists since thats the only time anyone would really say "underground sea".

[SirTylerGalt]

I would recommend doing a search of the thread for something like "underground sea". You should find pretty much just decklists for BUG lists since thats the only time anyone would really say "underground sea".

Yeah, I've already searched using "Gifts Ungiven". But Underground Sea is a good idea, since it will help me find non-Gifts versions too.

Is there some kind of "official" BUG list? I think Arianrhod was working on a BUG Fit control. Do people still play BUG versions anyway? Seems like most people go BG, BGw Rector, or BGr ScapeWish.

I also wonder how Abrupt Decay would fit in the BUG fit.

I guess I'll keep digging and read all the posts. Already read pages 48 to 53, 100 more pages to go.

[jbone2016]

Woo hoo! Nic Fit on camera at SCG providence. Wonder if it anyone from here. Rector fit looks like it.

[TheArchitect]

Yeah, I've already searched using "Gifts Ungiven". But Underground Sea is a good idea, since it will help me find non-Gifts versions too.

Is there some kind of "official" BUG list? I think Arianrhod was working on a BUG Fit control. Do people still play BUG versions anyway? Seems like most people go BG, BGw Rector, or BGr ScapeWish.

I also wonder how Abrupt Decay would fit in the BUG fit.

I guess I'll keep digging and read all the posts. Already read pages 48 to 53, 100 more pages to go.

Ya keep reading, its all there. I know little about BUG, never played it. But More recently (probably last 20ish) pages there has been more talk on BUG.

[Vicar in a tutu]

SCG, Providence: Ouch, game 1 was brutal. Did the Nic Fit-player even do anything (besides whiffing a therapy)?

[jbone2016]

Ouch, game 1 was brutal. Did the Nic Fit-player even do anything (besides whiffing a therapy)?

That seemed like a fairly loose keep against an unknown deck. Therapy was good, yosei and nightmare seems a little slow.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Ouch, game 1 was brutal. Did the Nic Fit-player even do anything (besides whiffing a therapy)?

That Delver should not have flipped, it's competitive and he is messing around with his triggers. He revealed the Seize to the Confidant and then flipped Delver with it after noting life total... Maybe they talked while that happened but visually that sucked :D

[Vicar in a tutu]

That Delver should not have flipped, it's competitive and he is messing around with his triggers. He revealed the Seize to the Confidant and then flipped Delver with it after noting life total... Maybe they talked while that happened but visually that sucked :D
Interesting, didn't notice that. BTW, the Nic Fit-player really doesn't try to play around Daze. I get so sad when a Green Sun's Zenith for 5 slams right into a Daze.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Interesting, didn't notice that. BTW, the Nic Fit-player really doesn't try to play around Daze. I get so sad when a Green Sun's Zenith for 5 slams right into a Daze.

They both play horribly, sloppy and i guess they are just nervous being on camera...

In addition Phramer was rearranging the graveyard after looking through and stuff.

[Vicar in a tutu]

They both play horribly, sloppy and i guess they are just nervous being on camera...

In addition Phramer was rearranging the graveyard after looking through and stuff.
Yeah, to be fair: I would probably play badly in front of the camera as well. (Or more precisely: I would play even worse than I usually do, I'm a pretty average player at best.)

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Yeah, to be fair: I would probably play badly in front of the camera as well. (Or more precisely: I would play even worse than I usually do, I'm a pretty average player at best.)

Then, let me correct my wording ;)

It seemed horrible without the conversations between them (in case they did talk actually).

Not playing around Daze was pretty bad though, as well as not Snapcastering the Surgical but well.

[Kich867]

Then, let me correct my wording ;)

It seemed horrible without the conversations between them (in case they did talk actually).

Not playing around Daze was pretty bad though, as well as not Snapcastering the Surgical but well.

I dont think many people really know about that interaction--especially if you've never played against it.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I dont think many people really know about that interaction--especially if you've never played against it.

Sure, but they palyed pretty sloppy anyways and Steven snap-grabbed his library when the Rector died, so he treid to get around the Surgical, maybe he didn't even know about it himself ;)

[slikwilly]

Is there some kind of "official" BUG list? I think Arianrhod was working on a BUG Fit control. Do people still play BUG versions anyway? Seems like most people go BG, BGw Rector, or BGr ScapeWish.

I think BUG is the least developed of the variants. And when you break down within those colors there isn't yet a consensus on the style of play let alone a typical build. Gifts, Intuition, infinite combo, now Future Sight. Lets of opportunity to make your mark if you put in the playtest hours though.

[slikwilly]

Sure, but they palyed pretty sloppy anyways and Steven snap-grabbed his library when the Rector died, so he treid to get around the Surgical, maybe he didn't even know about it himself ;)

I guess I'm going to have to grab this out of the SCG podcast to watch the games. Nic Fit isn't in there often enough. What round was this matchup?

Pretty sure if I kill my Rector I'm going for my library hoping my opponent doesn't realize he's got a chance to exploit that intervening if. Or I'll ask if he's going to Stifle the trigger just to put that suggestion in his head instead of extraction.

[lambert101]

Am 2-3 Bayous away from scapewish fit....So any boarding hints or deck tips would be helpful. Burning Wish is my favorite card and I have always wanted to play deed. Anyone have spicy wish targets? Also, thinking about Arianrhod's lists as my base cutting one stomping grounds to go to 60 cards and shaving the other stomping grounds for the 4th Badlands.

Edit: What about switching the Bonfires for Firespout?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Eh: I believe the big appeal of Bonfire is that it is a one-sided spell that will put your opponent closer to lethal range via Valakut. Don't quote me on that since I haven't touched or tested Scapewish.

[jbone2016]

I guess I'm going to have to grab this out of the SCG podcast to watch the games. Nic Fit isn't in there often enough. What round was this matchup?

Pretty sure if I kill my Rector I'm going for my library hoping my opponent doesn't realize he's got a chance to exploit that intervening if. Or I'll ask if he's going to Stifle the trigger just to put that suggestion in his head instead of extraction.

I believe it was Round 5 or 6.

[Zirath]

It was round 6; both players were 5-0.

Steve played a tad too quickly and I feel like he could have thought through the match up a little more carefully. However, he ended 12th so grats to him. He must have played well outside of that so there may have been some stage fright.

[Lorenzo767]

Here's my new list that i will be playing this coming sunday with a prize of Php6,000 converted to $144.93.

Punishing Nic-Fit

Creatures : 13

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan <--- i think better than Olivia Voldaren

Spells : Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact : 25

4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Shriekmaw <-- Revision due to SnT decks
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

I think your list is really interesting!
But i don't like too much the SB, just two slots vs Graveyard are enough?
With your tricolor mana-base isn't hard have BB early to cast Hymn to Tourach? Wouldn't be better more Duress or Thoughtseize?
Any report of your tournament? :)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Current BUG Fit List:

Main
4 Veteran Explorer (Staple)
1 Arbor Elf (Zenithable no-sac ramp)
1 Starved Rusalka (Zenithable sac-outlet)
1 Scavenging Ooze (Zenithable answer to Goyf and Dredge)
2 Eternal Witness (Staple with Recursive engines)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (Excellent blocker for Planeswalkers and the most reliable clock available)
1 Thragtusk (Life-gain for Aggro/Extra Therapy bodies for Control and Combo)
1 Primeval Titan (Stronghold Tower assembler in the form of a deck-thinning, massive ramp engine)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (Staple, especially in this build)
3 Diabolic Intent (Allows me to follow up a whiffed Cabal Therapy with an appropriate answer)
4 Pernicious Deed (Staple sweeper)
2 Abrupt Decay (CounterTop hoser)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (Planeswalker killer)
2 Flusterstorm (Protection from Combo and Force of Will)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Blue Staple and deck manipulator)
2 Liliana Vess (Preferred over Liliana of the Veil simply because of her tutor ability and one-sided discard. Also, her bomb is a bit more devastating)
1 Phyrexian Tower (Enables power plays with Veteran Explorer and one-half of the Stronghold Tower recursive engine)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (Can recur threats and ramp like a boss and one-half of the Stronghold Tower recursive engine)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Side
4 Chalice of the Void (To hell with Storm.dec!)
4 Angel of Despair (To hell with Show and Tell.dec!)
4 Engineered Plague (To hell with Tribal.dec!)
3 Carpet of Flowers (To hell with the Mirror Match and Delver.dec)

[Qweerios]

So uhh, what relevant things Arbor Elf accomplishes that Birds don't do better?

Also, may I suggest Brainstorm in your BUG Control deck?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

It deals damage, and it isn't as susceptible to removal in the sense that I can untap a Bayou/Tropical Island into response to it dying, and use that mana during any time between then and my next untap phase. Wasteland is a still evil though.

Also, Jace is the Brainstorm of the deck. Brainstorm by itself, as well as SDT, has yet to prove to be useful as a toolbox in goldfishing, although I can see how it can be used as such with fetchlands.

Also, also, forgot lands: let me update the list real quick.

[Kich867]

It deals damage, and it isn't as susceptible to removal in the sense that I can untap a Bayou/Tropical Island into response to it dying, and use that mana during any time between then and my next untap phase. Wasteland is a still evil though.

Also, Jace is the Brainstorm of the deck. Brainstorm by itself, as well as SDT, has yet to prove to be useful as a toolbox in goldfishing, although I can see how it can be used as such with fetchlands.

Also, also, forgot lands: let me update the list real quick.

Unless you're playing a combo deck goldfishing is a poor judge of card power. Especially cards that are used reactively. When nothing you have dies or gets countered yeah, brainstorm probably doesn't seem that amazing.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

? I thought the main appeal of Brainstorm was to extend the starting hand-size from 7 or 8 to 10 or 11? Unless I'm missing some interaction between it and other cards. Not bad for a deck with a bit more consistent construction, but not so great (again from my goldfish experience, which I admit is worth little with a control deck) on a deck with a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs.

Also, when I goldfish with a control deck, I tend to think about the possible plays my hypothetical opponent would make. Not a substitute for actual playtesting by any means, but better than simply going "I can win by turn five or six assuming no interaction!" To give an example, I've recently developed the habit of playing crucial bombs with one mana source open in case of Daze.

[slikwilly]

It deals damage, and it isn't as susceptible to removal in the sense that I can untap a Bayou/Tropical Island into response to it dying, and use that mana during any time between then and my next untap phase. Wasteland is a still evil though.

Also, Jace is the Brainstorm of the deck. Brainstorm by itself, as well as SDT, has yet to prove to be useful as a toolbox in goldfishing, although I can see how it can be used as such with fetchlands.

Also, also, forgot lands: let me update the list real quick.

I'm not really getting your deck. You're in blue for Jace and Flusterstorm? Flusterstorm is a sideboard card most of the time and adding a color and weakening your mana base for Jace doesn't seem like a good enough reason.

Also, I second the comment about goldfishing being a poor judge of power. Additionally, Nic Fit is a pretty complex deck to play. The best way to get better with it is to grind some games (this is true of any deck, but especially in a deck with the complexity of Nic Fit in a format with the diversity of Legacy). Learning the correct lines takes experience. (See the discussion last week about the tendency to want to sideboard out Tribe-Elder despite the fact that doing so is pretty much never correct.)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Flusterstorm is actually a nifty anti-counterspell card in the disguise of an anti-storm card. Consider this: let's say you need to get a bomb on the board against a blue control deck to seal the game. You have enough mana for a bomb and Flusterstorm, and they're tapped out. You drop the bomb and they Force of Will it. You Flusterstorm the FoW. Now, they must pay 1 mana or use another counterspell for each of the three copies (two storm count and one original). Since Daze and Force of Will are the only "free" counterspells I'm aware of, either option will either cripple their hand or their mana, usually ensuring you'll win the game anyway.

Prepost EDIT: Wait, they can just target the original spell again then, can't they? Dangnabbit.

I will admit it's application outside of countermagic and anti-combo (Storm being the most obvious, but also blue-based combo) is meager at best.

And I just realized how good Brainstorm was against disruption, though I'm still at a loss for what it does against counters and removal.

[Kich867]

? I thought the main appeal of Brainstorm was to extend the starting hand-size from 7 or 8 to 10 or 11? Unless I'm missing some interaction between it and other cards. Not bad for a deck with a bit more consistent construction, but not so great (again from my goldfish experience, which I admit is worth little with a control deck) on a deck with a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs.

Also, when I goldfish with a control deck, I tend to think about the possible plays my hypothetical opponent would make. Not a substitute for actual playtesting by any means, but better than simply going "I can win by turn five or six assuming no interaction!" To give an example, I've recently developed the habit of playing crucial bombs with one mana source open in case of Daze.

That's not the main appeal of brainstorm. I mean to put it bluntly, brainstorm is the most powerful spell in legacy and there's a reason for it that is incredibly applicable to nic fit.

Actually as a rule of thumb casting a brainstorm early is probably the worst, most useless application of the card. You don't waste brainstorms like that unless you need to, you don't want to use it as a crutch. The purpose, first and foremost, of brainstorm is to accelerate yourself through 3 draw steps to find an answer and keep yourself in the game--an issue that Nic Fit frequently has. The deck has no real card drawing capabilities and Top can only really do so much / you only run 3 of them.

The deck relies on top decking pretty hard, and giving it the option to not have to do that is pretty wild. I mean the SCG feature match was a good example of how durdly nic fit can be at times. Granted the player made <insert arbitrarily large number of play mistakes>, at the same time his cards were just totally useless. Brainstorm and the many shuffle effects the deck has help that -a lot-. You don't want to rely on Jace for brainstorm effects.

*Response to edit* Brainstorm's response to removal and counterspells is finding you something else they need to deal with. It's kind of a big deal in Legacy.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Ah: thanks Kich: that makes a lot of sense actually.

In fact, reminded me of an article I read about how Brainstorm, Ponder, and the ilk got better the longer the game went on.

[fireiced]

Am 2-3 Bayous away from scapewish fit....So any boarding hints or deck tips would be helpful. Burning Wish is my favorite card and I have always wanted to play deed. Anyone have spicy wish targets? Also, thinking about Arianrhod's lists as my base cutting one stomping grounds to go to 60 cards and shaving the other stomping grounds for the 4th Badlands.

Edit: What about switching the Bonfires for Firespout?

I believe 2 Bayous is usually enough [I play 4 Badlands and 2 Swamps] DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT cut that 1 Stomping Grounds cause it will sometimes screw up your valakut math D:

As for the deck as Arianrhod has said time and again, you will need practice in tournaments. A HELL LOT of it, with plenty of losses before you get the hand of it and start mountain bolt like a bause :cool:


Edit: No you do not want firespout to spit on your huntmasters and wolf tokens :eek:

[i_wish_i_had_money_cards]

Hi all,

I'm from the Ithaca area and I've also been playing BUG Fit. My list is a bit different than the lists I've seen so far, so I thought I would post and ask for advice. The deck is a little slow in the early game and I don't think it has enough ramp. Any advice or even blatant criticism is welcomed (just be civil).

This deck is intended to be a more controlling version of Nic Fit. I'm attempting to build a traditional control deck with difficult to answer or must answer threats, cheap removal and the coupe de grace of card advantage. There are cards in the list that are perhaps slightly bizarre and I know people are going to ask about a few of them in particular, so I'll try to preemptively answer those questions.

I) The shroud creatures are threats that can win the game alone and are very difficult to deal with while also being targets for Green Sun's Zenith. Kodama of the North Tree and Simic Sky Swallower are the typical game enders of the deck because of their evasion and Thrun the Last Troll buys time in the early game (emphasis: Simic Sky Swallower not only tramples but FLIES).

II) Consecrated Sphinx is a must answer threat that will produce real card advantage if not answered immediately. He's also a flier and does just about everything else: he attacks, he blocks, he slices and dices and apparently he also makes julian fries!

III) Wofir Silverheart just straight up kills people. Nobody respects this guy. I guess opponents just don't realize I'm putting at least thirteen power on the board for five mana. He turns late game Veteran Explorers, Eternal Witnesses and other dorks into real threats in the form 5/5s (at least). Soulbond doesn't target so he pairs up well with the shroud creatures. He turns Consecrated Sphinx into a real threat while locking down the ground or just bashing in for 8. But, his greatest strength: the weird looks I get when I cast him...

IV) Jace. This guy is interesting and I really can't pigeonhole him into any one role in the deck, but I guess that's expected. At the absolute worst he forces opponents to expend resources dealing with him while I get some incidental card advantage and time. At the absolute best: well, I'm sure we've all lost to a Jace backed up by a Thragtusk, a Consecrated Sphinx and a Simic Sky Swallower.

V) Preordain vs Brainstorm. People have taken this as a very personal offense in the past, so I'm going to say this upfront: Brainstorm is a great card. Allow me to make myself abundantly clear: Brainstorm is a great card. One more time, with feeling: BRAINSTORM IS A GREAT CARD! I won't argue with that (want me to say it again?), but I will argue that Brainstorm isn't quite right for this deck. Or rather, I'll argue with it now that I'm comfortable believing that nobody will try to burn my house down or beat me with soap bar filled socks ala Full Metal Jacket. I wanted a one mana spell that will allow me to aggressively filter through my deck in early game. I don't personally like Top, but that's a PERSONAL preference!... Ugh, I don't want to argue over this card too. Look, let's just be friends and go our separate ways.

VI) Consume the Meek is another very interesting card. It's much better than most people expect. I've never been unhappy to draw this card though I don't think I would ever want more than one. It's five mana, the sweet spot of Nic Fit. It's instant speed, which can be relevant for several reasons. It compliments the main deck removal very nicely. It's a Plague Wind that nobody sees coming. It's been much better than Damnation primarily because it kills everything I want Damnation to kill without killing off my team. If you haven't tried it, please do so.

Creatures [15]:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Farhaven Elf (should probably be more than 1 and also be Coiling Oracle)
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Simic Sky Swallower

Planeswalkers [3]:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instants [3]:
3 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries [14]:
4 Preordain
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantments [3]:
3 Pernicious Deed

SB:
Instants [1]:
1 Consume the Meek

Sorceries [6]:
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memorice
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Enchantments [5]:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

Artifacts [3]:
3 Relic of Progenitus

Thanks for reading (or not reading),
-G

[SirTylerGalt]

Re: Brainstorm

There is a classic article by AJ Sacher on how to play Brainstorm:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23152_SCG_Classic_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

[i_wish_i_had_money_cards]

Re: Brainstorm

There is a classic article by AJ Sacher on how to play Brainstorm:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23152_SCG_Classic_Pondering_Brainstorm.html

I know how to cast Brainstorm (at least as much as is allowed any mere mortal), but I wanted a card that I could cast AGGRESSIVELY. I need a card I can cast turn 0 or turn 20. Preordain fits that description.

[TheArchitect]

I know how to cast Brainstorm (at least as much as is allowed any mere mortal), but I wanted a card that I could cast AGGRESSIVELY. I need a card I can cast turn 0 or turn 20. Preordain fits that description.

I think he was replying to the posts before yours, where EpicLevelCommoner just read what brainstorm does or something.


Brainstorms, tops and preordains aside, Im no BUG expert but the only really obvious change I would make is add 2-3 coiling oracle (or maybe not cause they are best with brainstorm). At the least play wood elves instead of the elf you have cause the land etb untapped.

I like the Wolfir Silverheart idea actually, especially in a blue shell. He would actually be even better in the builds with Baleful Strix. I would however, try to get down to just 2 6/7 drops. Either 2 sphinxes, a sphinx and skyswallower. Or what I think would be ideal, prime titan and sphinx.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, so I have a ton of stuff to reply to. If I miss something and you want my opinion, just re-post it or direct my attention to it =)

@Kanti -- Sylvan Library is bad in -all- Nic Fit decks. Every Nic Fit version runs Deed, and Deed makes Library really horrible, because Deed will almost always kill it (2 is in prime firing range). Top has a sweet synergy with Wood Elves, where you can tap out for an Elves or a GSZ->Elves, and then still spin Top because the land comes in untapped. I'd take the 3rd Top over Sylvan any day of the week. Feel free to try it though, or to run it for the time being if you only have 2 Tops and a Sylvan. But IMO 3 Tops is correct.

If I absolutely had to trim out 1 card to get it down to 60, it would be a Huntmaster. You don't want to cut any Forests or Wood Elves, because those are crucial to the mana base -- since it doesn't run fetches, the Wood Elves are all actually critical. They're fetchlands that block for a turn.

@Zirath -- Dovescape is hilarious, but bad. Here's why:

I've actually thought of Dovescape before, because I have a High Tide player locally that I love annoying with progressively more obnoxious and lethal forms of hate, just to make him rage. Because High Tide. Anyway, Dovescape has two serious problems:

1) Mana Cost
2) It makes birds

Steve's last round of SCG actually exemplifies the why of #1. He was playing vs Storm, in g3. He double Therapies, taking Dark Ritual and Lions Eye. This buys him enough time to drop Nether Void (supposedly the guy's face was absolutely priceless). Void kills Storm decks DEAD, and it only costs 4 (3B). Dovescape costs 3WWW. Obv. both are meant to be Rector'd in, ideally, but sometimes you're going to have to cast it. I'd rather go with the one that costs 4 and doesn't require triple white.

As for Birds -- you have GSZ, I'll grant, but otherwise you can't really make a whole lot of birds, and GSZ won't shuffle back in. Baneslayer is obviously the nuts, but it's very, very possible to triumphantly slam Dovescape and then proceed to die to a million pinpricks by dozens of birds. Dovescape encourages you to keep some number of Deeds in vs Storm decks, which is not really where you want to be. I'll sometimes keep in one Deed just in case of Empty the Warrens / fringe uses causing timing issues vs LED, but if you're on Dovescape, you probably have to leave in 2 or even all 3, just so you can have one in play before Dovescape happens.

@SirTylerGalt -- I've shifted to Future Sight builds lately, but those are still control oriented, just with an included combo engine under the hood. You can find those lists a few pages back. The biggest problem with BUG lists is that there is a dozen ways to build a blue Nic Fit deck, and nobody can agree on anything. If you're splashing red, it's for Punishing Fire or Valakut/Scapeshift. There really isn't anything else that's good enough in red to actually force people to WANT to play red (though a few straight Jund lists have popped up from time to time). White is much the same way. But how do you choose between Jace, Gifts, Future Sight, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Tezz AoB, Cunning Wish, etc. Blue has so many sweet engines that it's stupid hard to build an effective list that people will actually agree upon. Also, going blue extends your "core" by 4, because Brainstorm. That means you have even less room for fun and for engines. It's a really awkward situation that we haven't really resolved.

My best advice would be to look to Qweerios for BUG Control variants -- his latest is definitely in that ethic, and he's been having some success.

@Steve's on-camera match -- The only thing that he did explicitly wrong that match was the GSZ for full mana. Like, Sigarda or Tusk both win the game, but he was so far ahead on resources and time that he didn't need to walk into that Daze. Furthermore, he really, really wanted a shuffle there, if memory serves, because his Top was bad. Could easily GSZ for 1/2/3, dodge countermagic, get your shuffle, and still have mana left over for Top / Witness stuff. Steve also mulled to 5 game 1, which we didn't get to see on camera....they just cut to the match with them already playing. The Hymn g2 really hurt, but that was recoverable. Also, I agree with Timur here -- I think there was some stage fright going on. He played really well otherwise, from what I've heard -- he was 5-0 going into that match. Don't forget the bubble excitement too -- if he had won that round, he would have been able to double ID into top 8, so he was probably feeling some of the effects of that, too. Round 7 he lost to the RUG player that won the event, because the guy literally drew nothing but counterspells and just rode one Mongoose to victory after countering literally everything. I mean, it happens. That's the only way RUG can beat us, and sometimes they have that draw. Awkward, but them's the breaks. Steve still did really well....12th place for his first time playing the deck in a big tournament is pretty good.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, Steve was playing my exact list (using some of my cards, too....like the Deeds. Thanks for the compliment, Adam Prosak), with the only exception being the two O-Rings in the board, in place of the Mindcensors. Steve was complaining that the Mindcensors were useless, and I've been agreeing with that for a while...just haven't figured out what to replace them with yet. He'd been testing vs OmniTell on Saturday, and we agreed that O-Ring would still be useful vs Maverick, but would also give some additional outs to Show and Tell. From what I heard, there was next to no Show and Tell in the room....at least compared to how it has been lately. So, whatever. Mindcensors wouldn't have done anything anyway, so it was irrelevant. Expect Steve to post a report at some point in the next couple days.

Oh, also, they apparently recorded his round 5 2-0 vs Goblins, if you can find it anywhere on SCG's website (I couldn't). From what I heard, Moat MVP.

@Lambert -- Firespout's a horrible idea, because it hits your side of the field, killing Huntmasters, wolves, Thragtusks, and beasts. Also, Bonfire hits planeswalkers, where Firespout doesn't, (probably) kills Angels that have been Entreated where Firespout doesn't, and can dome people with lethal when you're on the beatdown plan. The problem with cutting the Stomping Grounds is that you're cutting into your green sources. Generally speaking, a Green producing land defines a keepable opening hand. Once you have green mana, you can play Explorers, Wood Elves, and GSZ for either of the other two...all of which fix your mana via more green (and black/red). You NEED green mana for that to happen, which is why you want 6 Taigas over the 4th Badlands. Also, keep in mind that the shock from Stomping Grounds is still less damage than most legacy decks do to themselves with fetchlands over the course of a game. It doesn't feel that way because it's an increment of 2 instead of smaller payments of 1, but that's all psychological. You might be able to get away with your plan of shaving the Stomping Grounds, but you're going to have a lot more questionable keeps as a result...you're putting it more in the hands of luck. Also, you're net -1 mountain, which means you need to be more careful with what lands you get when/you're more susceptible to flooding out of Valakut range/you're more liable to not being able to do enough damage (though it's rare when you need double Valakut + full mountains).

@Money_Cards -- Hi Gabe /wave

As discussed at Mythic, I think that the 2nd Con Sphinx is overkill. You have enough bombs, you don't need to risk drawing too many 5+ drops and choking on mana. I'd replace it with a Recurring Nightmare, because you can use that as a 2nd Sphinx, basically, by getting it back after they kill it. Same with your hexproof beaters, Tusk, Silverheart, and you can Witness-loop for....well, anything. If you can squeeze in the Coiling Oracles, that gives you some big game, too. We've already talked about most of these points (and I've agreed with most of them except Brainstorm), so I'll let everyone else comment and just stand here stolidly.

[Yoric]

@Steve's on-camera match -- The only thing that he did explicitly wrong that match was the GSZ for full mana.

Well, that, and also nearly everything he did in game one. It looks like he had to mull down to six, but keeping the hand with Yosei, Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, no other creatures, and no clear way to ramp was the awful decision that led to the also-bad choice to call Delver of Secrets with his blind Cabal Therapy (I'm just guessing it was because he kept a criminally slow hand). Playing Faith's Fetters into a known Daze was the icing on the crapcake.

I'm willing to write all of that off to on-camera jitters, but they were all mistakes.

[Arianrhod]

Well, that, and also nearly everything he did in game one. It looks like he had to mull down to six, but keeping the hand with Yosei, Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, no other creatures, and no clear way to ramp was the awful decision that led to the also-bad choice to call Delver of Secrets with his blind Cabal Therapy (I'm just guessing it was because he kept a criminally slow hand). Playing Faith's Fetters into a known Daze was the icing on the crapcake.

I'm willing to write all of that off to on-camera jitters, but they were all mistakes.

Eh. The Therapy was bad, and should have named Brainstorm since there was already a Delver in play. But frankly, that wouldn't have helped. I think his 5 was Yosei, Nightmare, Therapy, Plains, Verdant. I probably would have gone to 4, but most people, even good players who I respect, are too scared to go to 4. The Fetters was fine, because it did two things -- it forced him to use the Daze as Steve was stuck on 4 lands, and it tempo'd the Delver player who was then 2 turns away from his Jace again. It he hadn't baited the Daze with the Fetters, Jace came down that turn. But yeah. I don't think that g1 was actually winnable. Game two was easily winnable, and then it came down to g3 -- which Steve didn't see an Explorer or a Carpet in any of those games. I will also note that the Hymn was devastating in g2 -- it could have taken almost any other combination of cards and Steve would have been fine.

[Yoric]

The Fetters was fine, because it did two things -- it forced him to use the Daze as Steve was stuck on 4 lands, and it tempo'd the Delver player who was then 2 turns away from his Jace again. It he hadn't baited the Daze with the Fetters, Jace came down that turn.

...and which is a better target for Faith's Fetters, Jace or Delver? If he was afraid of Jace, waiting to put the Fetters on Jace (and having the potential to play around Daze) seems much better than throwing a spell away to push Jace back a turn when Steve was dead in 3 swings anyway without lifegain from the Fetters (which would've turned it into 4 swings). Jace brainstorming Ryan into more counters is possible but not definite, whereas playing the Fetters then made Daze a definite counter. It was a bad play.

[slikwilly]

...and which is a better target for Faith's Fetters, Jace or Delver? If he was afraid of Jace, waiting to put the Fetters on Jace (and having the potential to play around Daze) seems much better than throwing a spell away to push Jace back a turn when Steve was dead in 3 swings anyway without lifegain from the Fetters (which would've turned it into 4 swings). Jace brainstorming Ryan into more counters is possible but not definite, whereas playing the Fetters then made Daze a definite counter. It was a bad play.

Haven't yet seen the video, but did he know the other guy had Jace? Putting a Fetters on Delver doesn't do a whole lot if he knows because then it's like, "Sure, cast your Fetters. I'll cast my Jace and Jace bounce my Delver so I can replay it."

Oh well, even if there were some misplays it's still great to see Nic Fit perform so well and do so publicly.

[Maverick777]

I went to Scg providence with rector fit and this is how it went

Round 1 vs stifle naught
He plays first plays a tundra and passes I open up with a cabal therapy naming top he reveals stifle and dreadnought a land and a few other things I pass he plays both now having a 12/12 out he passes to me I play veteran explorer after dropping my second land. Cracking therapy to ramp and get the peice of removal out of his hand. It resolves I go get the lands and I pass to my opponent he swings in for 12 and passes I play phyrexian tower and rector he has no counter I sac rector for moat and he loses to baneslayer and Sigarda

In 3x carpet of flowers 2x oblivion ring
Out Yosei, empath, nightmare, sun Titan, Sakura

Game 2 he led out a land passes I therapy on stifle hit 1 see he has 2 stp in hand and no dreadnought he also has fow I pass to him he plays a land passes I play explorer flashback therapy naming stp get land therapy from
Hand on fow and play top and pass I spin top eot see moat play it and continue to search for something to kill him with we go to time I win 1-0-1

Round 2 stoneblade

He was on the play lays down a tundra and passes I therapy on swords to plowshares it hits 2 he is holding fow brainstorm and clique as well as land I pass to him he draws passes back I play explorer it resolves i flashback therapy naming clique grab some lands and pass he draws and passes I play top he counters it with a Faerie I play vet explorer number 2 eot he brainstorms draws for turn and plays stoneforge opting for batterskull passes to me I play tower and rector I pass the turn he play stoneforge gain opting for sword of feast and famine I say sure he passes to me I grab up a Sigarda and drop it into play pass to him eot he puts in batterskull he puts sword on skull he moves to attack phase I sac rector grab moat and watch his face sink he passes to me I swing for 5 and pass he draws passes and I play baneslayer swing and pass he draws and scoops.

Game 2

In 3x carpet of flowers 1 humilty
Out nightmare, empath, Titan, Yosei

He plays first plays fetch and passes I therapy naming stp he has 2 along with fow brainstorm and EE I pass he draws plays land passes I play explorer flash back therapy he brainstorms in response I name EE he has it along with fow and now stp I grab lands he opts not to I therapy from
Hand naming stp he discards and I pass he plays land passes I play land for turn playing deed which I know will get countered he counters I pass and eot he flashes in clique taking out my baneslayer I was going to cast the next turn I draw a top he stoneforges on his turn grabbing feast and famine swings in and passes I draw Sigarda I play her and play top pass eot he enlighten tutors for jitte and stoneforges in feast in his turn equipped to the clique he Starts beating my face. Untaps his land puts jitte on clique I'm in trouble I top see 3 lands grab a fetch fetch it away and pass he swings again for obscene damage I am getting low on life I spin top see deed I'm within lethal I play deed and crack on 3 nuking his board I proceed to grab thragtusk for life and beat him to death with the angel.
2-0

Round 3 miracle blade


He plays first playing fetch and passing I play vet explorer and pass he plays tundra and passes I draw play therapy naming top got it he has stoneforge in hand and terminus we both durdle a few turns eventually I stick Yosei with nightmare and he scoops

Game 2

In 2x carpet of flowers 1 raking canopy
Out 2x Sakura 1 explorer

He plays first plays land I do not have therapy this time we both durdle for a bit I drop Sigarda and moat start swinging he entreat and kills Sigarda and I eternal witness it back out he terminus twice I get her back out with GSZ drop deed he entreats forgetting I have a deed on board I deed at 0 swing for lethal

2-0

Round 4 RUG

he plays first plays land and goose and passes I play therapy he dazes I pass he plays LAN and goyph swings with goose and passes I play explorer and therapy it resolves I name fow he reveals two i fetch the lands followed by an empath and fetch sun Titan I pass he draws into delver plays it and swings hard at me he passes I play land and cast moat he sighs hard and it resolves delver does not flip and he passes I draw into rector play it with tower out I pass delver still hasn't flipped he passes i draw GSZ I sac rector for deed and cast GSZ for 5 and play sigarda he scoops

Game 2
In 3 carpet of flowers 1 nethe void
Out nightmare, sun Titan, Yosei, empath

He led with a delver I led with explorer his delver flips h hits me hard I play land therapy naming goose hits and I flashback naming goyph I pass he swings for three plays delver and passes I draw baneslayer play it I pass he double
Bolts it after delver flips swings I am at 6 I draw pulse and kill
Both delvers play tower and pass he draws and plays goose and passes I draw rector sac it for nether void and he can't recover.

2-0

Round 5 goblins

These games were very one sided I did not sideboard game two both games consisted of playing moat and deed until he ha 0 threats

2-0

Round 6 BUG delver

He won the die roll I had to mull to six wasn't that great of a hand but kept anyway I failed To see a single threat and he beat me to death with a goyph

Game 2
In 3 carpet of flowers 1 void
Out nightmare, Yosei, Titan, empath

I mulled and led with explorer he forced I failed to draw anything worth whole and my GSZ failed so I eventually lost to him bouncing baneslayer with jace and winning with goyph

0-2

Round 7 Rug

He led with a goose and proceeded to counter literally everything I tried to cast bet me to death with a goose

Game 2
In 3 carpet of flowers 1 nether void
Out Yosei, Titan, empath, nightmare

Again he ha all the counters possible stifled my rector and countered my moat for the win

0-2

Round 8 ANT

GAME ONE I lead with therapy naming brainstorm he reveals one along with double dark rit LED led and land so now I am like shit I am on storm ok so I fail to have an explorer so I can't get him
He tries to go off and duress himself whih is an illegal
Action he messes his combo up and loses to my strong board state.

Game 2
In: memoricide, cranial extraction, 3 extirpate, 1 nether void.
Out: Yosei, empath, Titan, nightmare, 2 deeds


I play land pass he goes off turn one and I lose


Game 3

I play land therapy him for Led he has one alone with 2 rituals an cabal
Rituals I pass he passes back I play land flashback therapy naming dark ritual he dicatds 2 I grab lands play top nd pass he plays land and passes back eot I spin top see void and I know I have the win I cast nether void and he can't recover.

2-1


Overall I went 6-2 took twelfth place it's unfortunate I couldn't make top 8 but 12 place on my secon time playing is pretty good so there you have it my match ups.

[Maverick777]

Well, that, and also nearly everything he did in game one. It looks like he had to mull down to six, but keeping the hand with Yosei, Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, no other creatures, and no clear way to ramp was the awful decision that led to the also-bad choice to call Delver of Secrets with his blind Cabal Therapy (I'm just guessing it was because he kept a criminally slow hand). Playing Faith's Fetters into a known Daze was the icing on the crapcake.

I'm willing to write all of that off to on-camera jitters, but they were all mistakes.

I will admitt full heartadly I was nervous and I played quickly I did not want to mull to 5 or 4 I kept the hand hoping to draw into anything and it just didn't happen game two I felt VERY comfortable up until that hymn the hymn was it those combinations of cards killed me

[Star|Scream]

I went to Scg providence with rector fit and this is how it went


Overall I went 6-2 took twelfth place it's unfortunate I couldn't make top 8 but 12 place on my secon time playing is pretty good so there you have it my match ups.

Congrats on the finish. However, please add some punctuation to your tournament report. It hurts my eyes. :(

[Maverick777]

Congrats on the finish. However, please add some punctuation to your tournament report. It hurts my eyes. :(

Will do and thanks:)

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Will do and thanks:)

Good job all in all.

My posts were in no way condescending or anything and i guessed that it was you when i saw the deck and noone of you guys posting on here ;)

It's easy to call mistakes mistakes when ou have the information about both players handy and it's something entirely different when you are playing yourself while beeing nervous/under the lights.

I guess you don't need a lot of feedback, as you got one of the better players of this deck around you ;)

[Cire_dk]

@Maverick777: Gratz on the great result. It inspired me even more to play Rector Nic Fit at the Dutch open nationals in 2 weeks time. I noticed Nether void was a real star for you. It is a very expensive card so I am still in doubt if I should buy one or not. Is there any (cheaper) alternative at all.

By the way. We all make mistakes but we are lucky enough not to get the exposure you got, so well done.:smile:

[Maverick777]

@Maverick777: Gratz on the great result. It inspired me even more to play Rector Nic Fit at the Dutch open nationals in 2 weeks time. I noticed Nether void was a real star for you. It is a very expensive card so I am still in doubt if I should buy one or not. Is there any (cheaper) alternative at all.

By the way. We all make mistakes but we are lucky enough not to get the exposure you got, so well done.:smile:

I think nether void all in all is an all star card in the current meta against storm if you can disrupt their hand it is devastating to them they can not win. Against omniscience it makes it harder for them to cast things and may give you a turn or two to play something that will
Hurt. Against rug I have found that it is very helpful rug runs NO basic lands and veteran explorer is helpful to only you. Rug runs off of barely any land anyway so dropping a void on them ensures victory in my opinion. Nether void is 100% worth the money in my opinion.

[Qweerios]

If you want advice/opinions/ideas on BUG Fit and its multiple iterations, feel free to message me. I know Star Scream and Sumbahdy are also working on BUG Fit so you can probably ask them advice as well. For those new to the forum, I have played almost every versions of Nic Fit discussed in this thread. I have also been fully commited to BUG Fit for the past few months.

[Qweerios]

Been running some more BUG Fit lately with Counterspell and Pongify. All I can say is that Pongify and Jace are insane with Thragtusk... I am getting a second one in there pronto. The Counterspells haven't been an anchor at all so far and I believe they increase a lot of matchup's odds.

@i_wish_i_had_money_cards

Consumed the Meek and Wolfir are all good cards for Nic Fit, and I'm glad you brought those up. Wolfir brings 12 power to the table for 6 mana via GSZ, that's nothing to laugh at when you pack Kodama and Thrun. A 10/8 Shrouded Trampler spells disaster for every deck out there. Consume the Meek is a bit narrow but it is pretty much a Plague Wind for this deck indeed. I am curious as to how those perform for you in practice.

As for your deck, here's what I think:

2 Sphinx and 1 Simic is too many. I think that your Thrun/Thrag/Kodama/Wolfir package is far and above most BUG Fit decks in terms of "game-sealability". Simic is fine as an over-the-top GSZ target, however, Prime Titan might just be better, and Kodama already offers you that shrouded reach that Simic grants you. I think you can do better with your limited deck space than Simic, it isn't a key card in your configuration. The 2 Sphinx are win-more. They crowd your curve at the 6CMC+ end when you are already packed in 5-drops, that's a lot of dead cards against a lot of decks. I think they could easely be replaced by Oracles and Tops.

The other changes I would suggest to your decklist are choices you don't want to discuss (Top and Brainstorm)...

Note that Preordain is by no means more "aggressive" than Brainstorm. The simple fact that Brainstorm is instant speed makes it more of a tempo play (AKA: aggressive play) than Preordain. Paying 1 mana at the end of your turn rather than during your main phase grants you better aggressive play options for the following turn already, and that's discounting the fact that Brainstorm will dig further than Preordain. Auto-shuffle via Scry effects is a lame excuse for the massive boon that Brainstorm grants in CQ. Plus, it easely gets out of hand in the advent of a shuffler, and this deck is filled with shufflers (Fetches, GSZ, Explorer, Prime Titan, etc.). Besides, even if it were true that Preordain was "more aggressive" than Brainstorm, Nic Fit isn't aggressive or tempo-oriented in any way to begin with, and Nic Fit is highly dependant on card selection, card advantage, and card quality because it is a control deck. Therefore, Top and Brainstorm are pretty much the best cards in the entire Legacy card pool availlable to you if you want to build a control deck of the BUG variety (Deed, Jace, and friends.dec).

To put it bluntly, you are currently playing Grizzly Bears instead of Tarmogoyf because Tarmogoyf can potentialy be smaller... That's like a millonaire driving a Chevy because he knows Pintos are worst...

Don't take this little rant personally, SomethingDotDotDot started it. It would really sadden me to see this thread devolve further into meaningless discussions such as:
"Is Brainstorm worth it in BUG Fit?"

[Viridia]

I think i'm going to go ahead and test a BUG Version with mainboard Counterspells and some less Walkers then i usually play.
Probably cutting Gifts aswell, atleast for testing. Dutch Nationals coming up in 2 weeks, need to settle on some decklist :D

And yeah, if you think you shouldn't play brainstorm, you probably haven't experienced the power of it yet :)

Edit: Also, i usually don't use a GSZ toolbox or GSZ at all in BUG lists, what are your opinions on this?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

. . .

I have no idea why I'm dead set against using Brainstorm in my version. I mean, I obviously know how strong of an effect it can be with all the shufflers we run (hence why I've started to include JMS in all my BUG-builds), and have experienced its power first hand thanks to my first decent Swans combo Casual Deck with Terramorphic Expanse and Thawing Glaciers (I think that's it: the one that's like a slow, recurrable Terramorphic). I guess the thing that bugs me is that we have access to all this friggin' mana that using a slot for a cantrip (albeit the most powerful one) seems like a waste of a slot, especially since as others have said this deck seems to be in top deck mode fairly often and thus won't always have a shuffle effect to accompany the Brainstorm unless we save a fetch on the board.

But then that leaves two problems: the lack of instant speed on anything comparable, even for two to three mana, and their own personal flaws. Breakthrough is dead unless either you invest more mana into it or use more cards up. Infernal Tutor is the same way, albeit even more so. Diabolic Intent requires a creature we cannot always keep on the board, etc. etc. The only real contenders for this would be Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor . . . and those are vintage-restricted/legacy-banned.

So . . . I apologize for stirring up any debate about Brainstorm again, but I honestly have no clue why I'm adamant about not running it :(

[Viridia]

I noticed in my Gift-Walker BUG Versions i'm hardly ever topdecking, however that might be because i was running 3 Tops, 3 Jaces and 4 Brainstorms along with 2 Gifts ^^

[Claymore]

Pongify? Really? That card has insanely narrow use if you're just running it to kill your own 5/3.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Actually, if Pongify was a "target player sacrifices a creature. That player puts a token on the battlefield" I'd run it as my goto Edict effect. Being able to sac Vet for a 3/3 is nice as we can chump some of the weaker aggro threats then, as is force saccing Emrakul/Progenitus/Iona for a more manageable 3/3.

However, since it is a destroy target creature effect, it loses a lot of its appeal for me.

[Arianrhod]

Pongify? Really? That card has insanely narrow use if you're just running it to kill your own 5/3.

I think it's one of the most hilarious ways to off an Explorer that I've ever seen.

Brainstorming about Brainstorm.

I think that we need to get this over and done with for once and for all. This isn't something like Liliana of the Veil that we can let hang over our heads for all of eternity. While I don't want the thread to derail into Brainstorm vs non-Brainstorm land long-term, I do think that enough people want to do something with a BUG Explorer deck that we need to get this decided and done. If we don't have an express dialogue about the pros and cons of Brainstorm, the discussion will keep popping up and keep derailing the thread (see again: Liliana of the Veil's monthly cycle).

So.

Pros:
Resistance to discard (hide the good shit on top)
Explorer's deckthinning effect means it will draw 3x Gas much more often
If running Counterspell, lets you dig for one
Nic Fit runs a metric ton of shuffles
Can trade 5-6+ drops for early game action, or Explorers/Tribe-Elders/Therapies for late game action
Can smooth rough early hands by digging for mana or "assembling" Explorer/Therapy

Cons:
Requires up to 4 deck slots
Encourages greedy keeps/bad play
Is kind of lackluster in combination with Sensei's Top
...is an expensive foil

Basically, it comes down to all of the Pros vs the Space Argument, and I'll fully grant, soaking up 4 slots in your deck with Brainstorm is ROUGH in Nic Fit. That brings the "core" of a blue deck to something like this:

4 Explorer
4 Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Deed
2 Top
2 Witness

That's 20 cards -- OVER HALF of the space in the deck. That may not seem like much, but when you consider that that's without any backup ramp sources, GSZ or targets, win conditions, planeswalkers, counters, additional discard, tutoring engines, Nightmare package, Wishes, or any of a million other things the deck can do, you can start to see where it becomes a problem. Space is far and away the #1 enemy of BUG Fit. There's just only so much room to go around.

Now, I'm in the pro-Brainstorm camp, BUT, I'm not sure that it "has" to be a 4-of. I actually think that for a deck like Nic Fit, 2-3 is probably better. We don't often need or want Brainstorm in the early game -- we want it in the mid game more than anything. Also, we should be running a minimum of 2 Tops, which is a colorless pseudo-Brainstorm whenever we want it. IMO, 5 "Filter" cards is the maximum that we want: 3 Brainstorms and 2 Tops, or 2 and 3, or 2/2/1 Ponder, or whatever your desired configuration is. 4 Preordains and a Ponder, if you want to piss off legacy diehards. Whatever floats your boat.

Brainstorm is very much a sacred cow, but I think that Nic Fit as a deck gives us a little wiggle room therein. There are definitely cards we don't want early game, and cards we don't want lategame, which we can trade in via Brainstorm for useful cards. However, Brainstorm falls in the "Efficiency" camp of cards -- a camp that we usually want to try to avoid, in favor of Power cards. Why Brainstorm when we can Harmonize and just draw those cards? (Note, Harmonize is horrible. Don't do it). IMO Future Sight is an example of this, but ironically Future Sight gets better with Brainstorm, so moot point.

The trick to building a good Nic Fit deck is to balance the curve, which is something that legacy players are HORRIBLE at. 95% of legacy players look at the card pool, pick out like one or two 4-drops, a dash of 3-drops, and then MASH their deck full to the brim with 1- and 2- drops. Pure efficiency. That's why Nic Fit is a good deck: it ignores efficiency, and beats the opponent with more powerful cards....cards that legacy players have forgotten exist, because they cost too much. For some reason the metaphor of comparing legacy players to fashion critics screaming for weight loss comes to mind, and I think that it's actually a good metaphor. RUG is the epitome of that -- the anemic model composed of literally nothing but 1- and 2-drops, with no honest-to-god powerful cards in their whole deck. It's pure efficiency.

I realize that I'm rambling, so pulling back to curve and balance.

Here's Rector's curve:
1: 15
2: 3
3: 10
4: 5
5: 4
6: 2

Now, obviously there's kind of a hole at 2, there, but the deck is designed to skip the 2-drop slot. The only 2-drops are the pair of Tribe-Elders (which themselves ramp from 2->4), and the Diabolic Intent. Consider the mana generation.

Explorer+Therapy = 3 mana available on turn 2 (26 options -- 13 1s, 3 2s, 10 3s) Any combination of those 26 cards can happen on turn 2.
Explorer + Tower = 5 mana available on turn 2 (36 options -- everything except the 6s and 1 Explorer). Think about that.

Let's look at Scapewish quick:
1: 17
2: 4
3: 8
4: 5
5: 2
6: 1

Note that the extra 1-drop count is because Deckstats shows GSZ, and, more relevantly, Bonefire of Damned as 1-drops. Green Sun I can ignore being there, but Bonfire needs to be mentioned. See the similarity with Rector? No? Okay, how about when you add in the Wishboard:

1: 19 (Minus Bonfire...17)
2: 4
3: 10
4: 9
5: 2
6: 2 (Pulverize, so usually 1)

The 1-3 range is exactly the same, just slightly different distribution. Courtesy of the Wishboard, the Scapebuild build actually has 12 4+ drops compared to Rector's 11 (ignoring Pulverize and Bonfire as outliers).

So, what are the "efficient" cards. What are these 1-drops that occupy so much space?
4 Explorer
4 Therapy
3-4 GSZ
3 Top

Now think about what adding Brainstorm does to the curve. Where does the room come from? Note: I don't have the answer. This is an honest question. I can speak from experience that the curve of both of these decks is spot-on -- bad things rarely happen, as you almost always have quality plays every step of the way. Do you cut from the top-end? How do you win games, then? Where does your "power" go? Do you cut from the mid-game, and use Brainstorm to turn your late-game into more spammable early game? I'm reminded of what Kich was trying here -- using Explorer to vomit Goyfs and Bobs onto the field...more small things than a few big things.

I THINK that the correct answer is that you think of Brainstorm like additional copies of cards, and you shave to make room for it. You run 2 Tops, 3 Explorers, 3 Therapies, and 3 Deeds. Or some similar bullshit. You can't disturb the curve, because if you do, the deck will fall flat on its ass. The room for Brainstorm, if you want to play it, has to come from the 1-drops that are already present.

[TheArchitect]

While I dont play the BUG version, I really cant think of any valid reason not to run 4 brainstorms in it.

If ancestral recall could be a legacy legal 4 of. Would we not run it "cause we dont have the space"? I dont think so.

If you dont have the space, reduce the count of other cards you are running multiples of. Go to 2 tops, 2-3 GSZ, even one less jace, ewit, or deed if you have to. Maybe cut stuff like empath or diabolic intent cause you have better filtering now.

Tbh, I think anyone not using it probably doesnt know how to use it. Brainstorm isnt just a cantrip. And its not something you should always be playing eot turn 1 to fix the crappy hand you kept. Its instant speed digging, it protects from discard and acts as a ancestral recall when you have cards in your hand you cant use. In a control deck, and a deck that loves its one-ofs and situation cards, brainstorm is a too good to not use.

[CRich3]

I still don't understand the use of Hunility. It just seems like it hurts us more.

[litenkatt]

I still don't understand the use of Hunility. It just seems like it hurts us more.

you wont win against s&t decks/reanmiater without humility. Im even playing it MD because my meta is so full of em stupid emrakul decks

[Zirath]

Tbh, I think anyone not using it probably doesnt know how to use it. Brainstorm isnt just a cantrip. And its not something you should always be playing eot turn 1 to fix the crappy hand you kept. Its instant speed digging, it protects from discard and acts as a ancestral recall when you have cards in your hand you cant use. In a control deck, and a deck that loves its one-ofs and situation cards, brainstorm is a too good to not use.

Brainstorm isn't a turn 1-4 card. You can't cast it effectively in that time frame without incurring some sort of penalty.

Additionally, I think many of us have noticed that Nic Fit has evolved into a Control-Combo deck. Just look at the most successful versions: Yosei-Lock, Thragtusk Loop, Scapeshift. The deck is slow and grindy so you need an auto-win button sometimes. The problem with BUG isn't the lack of filtering, it's the lack of a stable win. Attacking with 6 drops is great but you need to have be ahead to just play a creature who doesn't impact it like Sun Titan. This is why I liked the Future Sight win since it was both a filtering technique and a win condition. Grave Titan, the previous herald win condition of the archetye, has completely departed from most versions of the deck.

[Viridia]

I still prefer the Planeswalker "lock" for BUG, having a Jace + Karn (+ Garruk/Vraska) online usually will get you a win quite fast.

[Arianrhod]

Brainstorm isn't a turn 1-4 card. You can't cast it effectively in that time frame without incurring some sort of penalty.

Additionally, I think many of us have noticed that Nic Fit has evolved into a Control-Combo deck. Just look at the most successful versions: Yosei-Lock, Thragtusk Loop, Scapeshift. The deck is slow and grindy so you need an auto-win button sometimes. The problem with BUG isn't the lack of filtering, it's the lack of a stable win. Attacking with 6 drops is great but you need to have be ahead to just play a creature who doesn't impact it like Sun Titan. This is why I liked the Future Sight win since it was both a filtering technique and a win condition. Grave Titan, the previous herald win condition of the archetye, has completely departed from most versions of the deck.

I strongly agree with Timur here. I also remember an article that Carsten Kotter put up on SCG where he referenced Nic Fit specifically with regards to his hybridization theory. Nic Fit has a questionable aggro plan (until 5-drops happen), but it has a strong control element and the versions that are winning are doing so through combos increasingly more. That said, I certainly think that there is still room for the straight control/straight aggro/whatever versions of the deck -- obviously Qweerios is having a fair amount of success with his BUG Control build, and people have played the Rock style lists to good finishes as well. But adding in the presence of a combo fundamentally improves the deck, IMO. I think that technically I would go with Midrange Combo-Control as a descriptor, but that's arguing semantics.

Also, RE Humility -- trust me, it hurts the deck whose only win conditions are Griselbrand and Emrakul a whole hell of a lot more than it hurts us. Yeah, it does, but beating those decks down with 1/1s is perfectly acceptable. You don't have to be Efficient or Powerful to beat Emrakul decks. You just need to be a dick.

[slikwilly]

Pongify? Really? That card has insanely narrow use if you're just running it to kill your own 5/3.

I've contemplated some kind of Bant deck w/ Pongify. Probably just a fun one (giving yourself a 3/3 + 2 lands probably not as good as taking an opponents card(s) + 2 lands) but it seems amusing :)

[Qweerios]

I don't think Nic Fit is too packed to include Brainstorm. A question I've received a lot lately from different users has been regarding the kind of core BUG fit oughts to have. I gave them all the same answer:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm

4 Pernicious Deed
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top

2-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2-3 Island
1-2 Swamp


This leaves 10 cards for the maindeck. With those 10 cards you have to choose a recursion engine, some bombs, some form of targeted removal, and/or a package (Trinket, Gifts, Intuition, Prime Titan + Lands). It is true that the core is heavy (50 cards!), but finding 10 slots to play around with was no small feat.

Concerning Brainstorm, I can tell you from experience that if it is in my opener, it's coming out on T2-3 coupled with a Therapy and followed by an Explorer shortly thereafter. It is also the best topdeck you can have. For those who don't understand that notion, what's better than the perfect topdeck? 3 of them, during the same turn. If I could Brainstorm every turn, I wouldn't need Top or Jace at all. However, those are the closest cards to BS #5-8. While playing Nic Fit, I am drooling at the idea of being taxed 1 mana for the entire duration of the game if I can get a BS each turn.

You cannot argue against Brainstorm on the basis of a mana curve. You have a curve because you start the game with 7 cards and draw 1 per subsequent turns. Assuming this is how the game flows, you need to have a good balance of lands and spells so that you can empty your hand as efficiently as possible. However, when you accelerate 3 draw steps and fix 2 bad draws in a single turn for 1 mana, you are making a stupidly efficient play that breaks the established conventions of how a mana curve is established. Having cards like Brainstorm in your deck also virtually increases the size of your sideboard.

Also, GSZ isn't a 1-drop, it's a 2-4 CMC card at the lowest, exactly how Snapcaster Mage isn't a 2-drop...

So far I've mainly used Pongify as:

-Instant Explorer sac outlet (often grabs me 2 islands for a Counterspell);
-Response to removal on my own creatures (especialy relevant with Thragtusk);
-Combat trick (block + Pongify, Pongify + block, declare attackers + Pongify, etc.);
-Targeted removal (especialy relevant with Jace, and/or against Islandwalk lords... f***ing Mangara)

[Star|Scream]

Pongify? Really? That card has insanely narrow use if you're just running it to kill your own 5/3.

I don't know why you would pongify your thragtusk unless you needed 2 blockers. However, I have begun testing it because Qweerios says it's legit.

The main PRO of pongify is instant speed 1cmc removal in decks without white.

It deals with every creature in the format except for Emrakul, Progenitus, Etched Champion, hexproof/shroud (same as STP)
It turns flying creatures into ground creatures (Delver, Tombstalker).
It turns high cmc creatures (Tombstalker) into 0cmc creatures (for deed).
It combos with Jace bounce.
It can be used as a fog.
It can give you an emergency blocker.
Additional sac outlet. Attack with witness, kill witness, recur witness with stronghold next turn, attack for 3.
It can save your own creatures from being exiled.
Still has uses against non-creature decks game 1

Cons

It gives your opponent a 3/3 token


I'm not on board with it yet as I'm still testing, but to outright dismiss it because it seems silly is, well, silly.

[Claymore]

I mean, all of those are completely negated by the fact that you're playing black. The cute little plays it can manage are just that, cute. Replacing a 4/5 or 5/5 or 7/7 with a 3/3 leaves you staring down a 3/3 that you STILL need to blow your Deed for when all you needed was Ghastly Demise. Giving yourself endless Witnesses is neat, but you're getting into the territory of win-more if you're pulling off this play.

The ability to kill your Explorers off is cute, but that play must be weighed against the other more useful possibilities that the slot could be used for.

I'd like to see how others feel about it in testing, since killing explorers definitely has merit. At the same time, you wonder why we just don't play Beast Within since it has about the same result while expanding the targets at the expense of 3cc

[Star|Scream]

I mean, all of those are completely negated by the fact that you're playing black. The cute little plays it can manage are just that, cute. Replacing a 4/5 or 5/5 or 7/7 with a 3/3 leaves you staring down a 3/3 that you STILL need to blow your Deed for when all you needed was Ghastly Demise. Giving yourself endless Witnesses is neat, but you're getting into the territory of win-more if you're pulling off this play.

The ability to kill your Explorers off is cute, but that play must be weighed against the other more useful possibilities that the slot could be used for.

I'd like to see how others feel about it in testing, since killing explorers definitely has merit. At the same time, you wonder why we just don't play Beast Within since it has about the same result while expanding the targets at the expense of 3cc

Playing this deck do you ever have a problem staring down a 3/3 with no evasion? The only 3 power creature I have a hard time dealing with is a turn 1 or 2 flipped delver. If it's on the ground I can handle it.

Also, ghastly demise would probable be better for this deck if we didn't eat (ooze) and/or flashback a bunch of cards.

[Claymore]

Ghastly Demise is a placeholder for a removal spell that actually removes creatures. Regardless, I don't know about you, but I only ooze in emergencies and I'm not aware of any flashback besides Therapy...I don't see anything else the core list Qweerios posted or any other list around there. Maybe Chainer's Edict?

You can say all you want about creatures not being an issue, but hell, RUG Delver is a deck that just took down an SCG and its most consistently important creature is a 3/3. Once you start to put cards in your deck as removal that require you to 2-1 yourself to get rid of anything, your deck is moving the wrong direction. Especially considering that there is a whole deck to fight to go with that 3/3, and you (the control deck) just burned a spell to replace a creature with another sizeable creature so you're likely having backwards momentum already.

Let's take a look at the cards that can deal with the 3/3 from Qweerios's BUG list a few pages back:

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk (dies)
1 Acidic Slime (dies)
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (-1 counter)
1 Vraska the Unseen (-3 counters)

First, note all of the x1's for the sake of consistency. There are also Explorers and Witnesses to chump it, or if you prefer you can 3-1 yourself to Pognify then double block to completely remove the creature.

Thrun is good but you're wasting his blocking slot on the counterattack (or maybe Thrun can't swing your turn to kill Jace because they conveniently have a blocker), Thragtusk loses his first life, Slime dies, Ooze requires a set up to not die, blowing Deed on one token is embarrassing, and your walkers lose value to take up the slack of another card. Especially Vraska, that's 3 turns you just lost on her. Or 2 if you use her +1 and they swing and connect.

We've already heard the self-uses of Pognify, so maybe that's worth it, of which I'm only concerned with Explorer because Pog+Thragtusk is very, very situational and even then has horrible synergy with Deed. I don't know, I haven't tested it, but trying to say that it is useful as a removal spell in the BUG set up is a losing battle.

[Qweerios]

Pongify isn't meant as a removal spell, it's an Explorer sac outlet. I was hesitating between Innocent Blood and Pongify and I opted for the latter because it isn't a dead card nearly as often as IB. It isn't a spell you use proactively on your own creatures aside from Explorer because that's just plain card disadvantage. With Pongify, I swing with my Explorers and Pongify them on my opponent's end step. The simple fact that you can play Explorer on T2 and bait StP (or not) to eventually Pongify EoT and have 5 mana availlable T3 with an attacking 3/3 is worth it over IB IMO. It is rarely a removal spell unless the game is well advanced and I need to clear the board. Then it becomes a desperation move, but it is still an option nonetheless. When I am up against a creature-light deck, I apreciate that my Explorers turn into Delvers while they ramp me into counterspells and/or discard spells.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Any thoughts on Declaration of Naught? Or is it too fragile/inconsistent/color-intensive to use?

[Yoric]

I will admitt full heartadly I was nervous and I played quickly I did not want to mull to 5 or 4 I kept the hand hoping to draw into anything and it just didn't happen game two I felt VERY comfortable up until that hymn the hymn was it those combinations of cards killed me

Yeah, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it (sorry if it came off that way). Good work at the tournament, and the next time you're under the lights (there will be a next time!) you'll be more confident.

[soiber2000]

I know it is not the best choice in the current meta, but what do you think about GBW without Rector package? I've had this deck long abandoned and I'm planning to play this weekend but have a lot of hilarious ideas :tongue:

(Current meta)
RUG: 20%
UGx Miracle: 15%
Maverick: 10%
Show and tell: 10%
GBW, goblins, reanimator: 5%
Rest(less than 5%): 40%


- Restoration angel: As a singleton, in a build full of ETB creatures (finks, Eternal witness, thragtusk, primeval and grave titans...)

- Increase the discard suite with 2 duress or 2 thoughtseize for the best blue decks (45%)

- Primeval titan, Sun Titan, Grave Titan: What would be the best finisher?

- Extraction effect maindeck as a 2 of. Usefull in all 4 best decks (rug = -1/3 of wincons, Miracle = - 1/2 of wincons, maverick = - reliquary, show and tell = -show and tell or emrakul)

Edit to include my list:


4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Innocent Blood
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


Thinking in: -1 Sun Titan -Swords to plowshares +1 Restoration Angel +1 Pernicious Deed. Or +1 Primeval Titan and change 2 lands for 2 Treetop village

Any help will be appreciated.

[Qweerios]

I don't think white has anything to offer if you discard Rector. The 3rd color isn't worth it when you consider the poor changes it brings to the list:

-Sun Titan is trash compared to Prime and Grave;
-StP is worst than IB and/or Pulse for this deck;
-Vindicate isn't strictly superior to Pulse;
-Baneslayer Angel is worst than Thragtusk in 99% of cases, and you can't use the Moat excuse;
-Sigarda is fine...

So yeah, without Rector, straight GB Nic Fit is better.

Also, Karn vs. Vraska, what do you guys think?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I don't think white has anything to offer if you discard Rector. The 3rd color isn't worth it when you consider the poor changes it brings to the list:

-Sun Titan is trash compared to Prime and Grave;
-StP is worst than IB and/or Pulse for this deck;
-Vindicate isn't strictly superior to Pulse;
-Baneslayer Angel is worst than Thragtusk in 99% of cases, and you can't use the Moat excuse;
-Sigarda is fine...

So yeah, without Rector, straight GB Nic Fit is better.

Also, Karn vs. Vraska, what do you guys think?

Karn v Vraska really just comes down to either pay 2 more mana for the exile disruption and vindicate or pay 2 less for a maelstrom pulse on a stick. Which is, despite my one sided wording, is a legitimate concern. My preference is for Karn though, simply because he exiles stuff in graveyard loving format (such as threshold, dredge, etc).

EDIT: Also: finally decided on a list to finally build. And yes: I'm running 4 Brainstorm.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Arbor Elf
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Negate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Karn Liberated
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

And as a tip for how your curve will actually look like when factoring in X spells like GSZ, go to deckstats.net, uncheck "Merge lines with the same card name", and then put each individual cost that you would use for that card.

An example of what my curve looks like after factoring in multiple GSZ targets: http://deck.tk/1I8T7Mqq

[Alexeezay]

I think Negate is always sideboard material & Arbor Elf seems very underwhelming in a deck with 4 Deeds, Rusalka is a sac-outlet at least...

@Vraska/Karn: I think it depends on the deck version. Karn is better in general but too expensive most of the time without extra acceleration in Sakura Tribe Elder/Wood Elves. So I would never play more than 1 Karn.
I thought about playing 1 Karn/2 Vraska in straight GB, while I would play only Vraska(1) in the other builds. BUG already has Jace TMS & Scapewish doesn't really need PWs..

[soiber2000]

I don't think white has anything to offer if you discard Rector. The 3rd color isn't worth it when you consider the poor changes it brings to the list:

-Sun Titan is trash compared to Prime and Grave;
-StP is worst than IB and/or Pulse for this deck;
-Vindicate isn't strictly superior to Pulse;
-Baneslayer Angel is worst than Thragtusk in 99% of cases, and you can't use the Moat excuse;
-Sigarda is fine...

So yeah, without Rector, straight GB Nic Fit is better.

Also, Karn vs. Vraska, what do you guys think?

Yes, maybe you're right, this build doesn't give anything compared to straight GB, but I remember when I tried GB list in the past it was underwhelming for me. Anyway, thanks for the input.

[Arianrhod]

@Karn vs Vraska -- Karn is the stronger card by far, but he's a 7-drop, and even for Nic Fit, 7 is pushing it. That said, Vraska can come down on turn 2 with the Tower opening, which seems absolutely devastating to me. I think that the best way to think about it is 0-2 Vraska, 0-1 Karn. If you're on a heavy PW build, I could see 1 and 1, or even 2 Vraska and 1 Karn -- Vraska being cheaper matters when you need to protect your other PWs -- which is something Vraska does pretty well. If you only have one slot open, it depends on your other 60 cards...but I'd be inclined to give the slot to Karn over Vraska.

@Soiber -- You're missing something very good that white gives you for Rock (as is Qweerios): Armada Wurm. I won't say that it's a "reason to go white," but it's probably second only to Sigarda on the list of what non-Rector white gives you. Also, I take slight offense to Qweerios' Sun Titan comment, even as I don't -necessarily- disagree. It all depends on how your list is set up. I don't like Grave Titan in this deck anymore, so I'm throwing that out right now. There are definitely compelling arguments on behalf of Prime Time, but I hesitate to say that it's clearly better than Sun. Sun + Witness or Sun + Deed has won me more games than I really care to count, and that's in an area where I've been doing this for over a year now and people are prepared for it. It still wins games despite their preparation. Sun Titan has a very serious problem, though, in that it can't be Green Sunned -- you need an Empath to "speed bump" to it, which is not something you want in a Rock version. It's fine for Rector because I have more than enough tricks to abuse the Empath, but it's not something you need. To that end, I'm inclined to agree with Qweerios and say you don't want Sun. I'd probably set up a Rock version something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

//sb
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Extirpate
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize


I literally just whipped this up sitting here typing, so I can't like tell you "yes it's good," or anything like that. It's where I would start if I were looking into a Rock-based approach, though.

A few notes....

For what you want it to do, you still need some number of Swords to Plowshares. I've tried Innocent Blood in white-based lists, and it doesn't work as well as you want -- if RUG has a flipped Delver and a 1/1 Goose, and you Innocent Blood, guess what they're going to get rid of. In almost every case, you want to get rid of the Delver, because if nothing else you can always chump the Goose until you draw out of whatever hole you're in. The fact that Swords targets is actually pretty important, sadly. It might well be better just as a 2nd Abrupt Decay, but I like to diversify my removal in Nic Fit. As Qweerios notes, Vindicate isn't strictly better than Pulse, but I like a 1-1 split in these kinds of decks, because they hit different things. Vindicate can kill lands, whereas Pulse can't, which is especially relevant for you, since you don't have a Rector package to find Faith's Fetters. Keep in mind that Eternal Witness (the original Snapcaster Mage) means you essentially have 3 copies of each of these removal spells...up to endless with Nightmare active.

I still like Nightmare in this deck. There is a sufficient creature density that you'll always have things to sac to Diabolic Intent to fish it up, and this deck doesn't really -need- to have Nightmare like Rector does...it's much more of a potent mid/late bomb in this version, as opposed to something that we're actively trying to break. You don't need it early, but it's always something you'll be looking for with Top and/or Intent.

No Rector means no Moat, which means Thrun is acceptable again. He's still awfully small, but he does good work vs the blue decks in the format. Yeah, they can Terminus him, but you run 4x Green Suns -- every creature in this deck is green, so I can totally get behind a 4-of here. You can dig him out again, or just re-establish with Sigarda. Miarcles doesn't like having to deal with Thrun and Sigarda in succession. No Moat makes Armada Wurm your finisher of choice, especially with Nightmare and Trostani, both of which break the Wurm in half.

Speaking of Trostani, I don't actually know how good she is in practice yet. She's very high on my list of things that I want to test, but I haven't gotten a chance to do so yet. She seems straight busted in this deck, with Tusk tokens, Master tokens, and Wurm tokens to populate...and plenty of things coming into play to gain a ton of life with. The amount of lifegain is one reason why I opted for Thoughtseize over Duress -- most games you're going to be well over 30 life, even vs aggro decks. You can afford to pay the life. I wanted to put in something like a Skeletal Scrying or a Greed...something to take advantage of that lifegain...but there ended up not being room, and you want to abuse your 'yard with Nightmare/Witness, not exile it to draw cards. Still, she's a very solid 4-drop. At 2/5 she can wall off RUG's ground-pounders for quite a while, while gaining you life to undo the damage dealt by flipped Delvers. She also blocks Batterskull forever, and if you get into a stalled board state, she'll allow you to totally take over with even just 1 token of any kind. She's theoretical, but I think she's worth a look.

The pair of Tribe-Elders are here because the deck has a fair number of higher creature drops, but also because your main avenue to attack combo decks is the Extraction effects, which are 4-drops. Also, they've just impressed me a lot in practice - they're a solid backup ramp engine for when you can't get an Explorer to go off, they help the Nightmare plan, and they color fix should you need it.

The mana base is pretty much straight ported from Rector -- you don't need the 2nd Tower, so I put in the Stirring Wildwood on a lark. That could be anything, really. Wildwood is tech that's been forgotten with time...it's still a dual land that makes a 3/4 reach...3/4, of course, being bigger than Delver and Goose, and out of Bolt range. Coming into play is a hefty drawback, and there isn't like a Primeval to find it or anything...but I think it's a respectable choice to test out and see how it works.

Sideboard is fairly industry-standard...nothing too exciting there. Carpets are still all-stars, Extraction effects (which I bumped up to 3 due to the lack of the Rector bullets) are control and combo breakers, Extirpates help there too while combating graveyard decks, Thoughtseizes give you some more early game vs combo and come in on the play vs control, Damnation is the best vs aggro/tribal decks (which won't likely bring in Teeg vs this deck), Grip is a solid catch-all for Stoneblade and Omniscience, or any random.dec you run into.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Horizon Canopy for draw power with Eternal Witness?

Also, I don't really fear creauture spells as I do Show and Tell, Goblin Charbelcher, Dread Return, etc. Hence the negate over counterspell. I'd prefer Flusterstorm, since Blue based combo has to invest more counterspells to protect their combo, but that lacks the same coverage.

Eh who knows: I just might try mana leak or rune snag.

[slikwilly]

Horizon Canopy for draw power with Eternal Witness?
I ran one for a while. Not really worth the pain that it causes and not being fetchable kinda stinks.


Also, I don't really fear creauture spells as I do Show and Tell, Goblin Charbelcher, Dread Return, etc. Hence the negate over counterspell. I'd prefer Flusterstorm, since Blue based combo has to invest more counterspells to protect their combo, but that lacks the same coverage.

Eh who knows: I just might try mana leak or rune snag.
I can't get on board the soft counter train when we're running Explorers. Negate doesn't really solve the Belcher problem since you'll still lose turn 0 plenty. It might be okay vs S&T, though in my experience, if you're on blue they won't play it until they have counter backup and you pretty much can't win a counter war with just a pair of Negates.

[soiber2000]

@Soiber....

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

//sb
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Extirpate
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize

...

As an old Rock player I must admit that this list looks very good and could be a good start to work. Armada wurm seems very reasonable replacement for titans, and Trolstani, well, it can work in this deck. Something I'm lacking in GBw and GB is a good 4 drop besides thrun. I haven't played played with Master and some list ran it some time ago, I don't know why it was dropped but I will give it another try. Trolstani is another 4 drop that have good stats and habilities but I am worried about its activated hability to be useless most of the game.

Anyway with this experimental list you do give me a reason to run white, and maybe that's what I was expecting to hear from someone. Thanks!

[Qweerios]

I don't think Armada Wurm is better than Primeval Titan, even in Rock Fit. Prime will fetch up to 12 trample damage in the form of 3 permanents as opposed to Armada's mere 10 and 2. Prime also offers different angles of attack when you can grab the two towers or a combination of Wildwood and Treetop. Plus, Terminus hates manlands.

As far as the "off the top" list posted by Arianrhod, here's what I think:

-Thrun overlaps with Sigarda, the list is already jam-packed with creatures as it is;
-2 Thragtusk is overkill. You only need to land 1 Thrag to optimize GSZ when you need to gain life, the second Thrag is win-more unless you use him as a beater (Sigarda is better at that IMO). There is even a Finks in that list so the RUG/Burn/Sligh matchups are guaranteed already;
-Trostani and Master fall into the testing/flex slot category, playing both takes up valuable space;
-A single Slime pretty much invalidates Vindicate vs. Pulse since you now have 5 virtual copies of Artifact/Enchantment/Land removal that happens to loop with the two Towers;
-StP doesn't have a reason to be anymore now that Abrupt Decay is availlable. You either play around daze (2cmc, 1 of which has to be white (wasteland vulnerability)), or you can punch through all the counters;
-A healthy amount of Planeswalkers should find their way in there, it is a control deck after all.

[vilnico]

Hi people,

Told you a few pages earlier about a Omniscience version of Nic Fit, which did 9/50
So here is the list for people who like to work on this.


MAIN DECK 61

2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath

1 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath

1 Bone Splinters
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
2 Eladamri's Call

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Omniscience



SIDEBOARD 15

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

1 Gaddock
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Perish
1 Abrupt Decay



First things first:
Why play *this* ?
I love Nic Fit BGw., I really do. It's so fun, polyvalent and all. But it takes ages to kill. Before Innistrad, I used to play Thrun as GSZ target, and Eldrazi Conscription as a Rector target. But Terminus wipes this all... :/ But even without that stupid killer combo, I would play because it's so fun. Just board in some Elspeth and Lingering Souls MD for UW and this should be fine.
But again, it takes ages to kill, and may lead you to draw games you would win with more time.
And then M13 was spoiled, and I immediately saw Omniscience fitting in there.
So people would put you on Nic Fit when you drop the Explorer, and don't see this coming at all and not so fast. The combo gives you an incredible pressure for following games because people usually don't have sideboard for that (or do not know how Rector triggers and all... which is really handy :p).


Some comments on MD:
Scroll Rack main use is to reshuffle the only Omniscience you may unluckily draw (yeah shit happens). For lucky people it might be as well a 3rd SDT.
1-off Pattern of Rebirth is the B-plan, in case you have Omniscience in hand, and you can manage to find the Rack.

The main synergy comes from Diabolic Intent and Academy Rector. One can see that Cursed Garruk -1 with Rector give you the same result.
Another pathway to the combo is to flashback a Cabal (or any sac outlet) on Rector, to Omniscience, then play Eladamri's Call on Emrakul, or even GSZ@3 on Fierce Empath for Emrakul.

The token gameplan is an appreciable add-on. They stall the game, sometimes ruin Jace, but also feed Diabolic Intent, and hold the Pattern of Rebirth. All nice feature.
In that sense, Lingering Souls are awesome, Sorin eventually kill Jace, and Garruk serves also the A plan.

First version used to have 2 Liliana of the Veil, but it happened that you would not activate her sometimes, which is not cool. Also she may control you opponent hands, but do we really need that ?
Eternal Witness used to be the original 2nd target for GSZ. But Empath is better as it gets you to Emrakul.


Sideboard:
- Well you do not really stand against combo in general. And one can expect to play against Reanimator, Ichorid or ANT/Belcher. But that is true for Nic Fit in general.
- Aside of combo, your worse enemy has become Maverick, zhich is not the case or regular Nic Fit versions, because or Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze and Aven Mindcensor all rape you on the spot :/. Pridemage destroys Omniscience on the stack. Scavenging Ooze exiles Rector when she triggers (if your opponent know that this sole creature screw you up completely, which is unlikely as few people understand Rector's wording straight away). And Mindcensor is well... Mindcensor ^^. So Perish is needed in addition to the 3rd Deed.
- Didn't have the chance yet to resolve Chains of Mephistopheles against Brainstorm.deck. I just can't wait for that !!!


Small report of my 9/50 event:
Went 4-2, winning Gobz, Maverick, Bant, Thresh
Lost to Dark Thresh, that just had twice the ideal starting 7 with dreadful THoughtseizes. And to BUG, game 1 because of Hymn to Tourach into Veteran AND GSZ. Never touched a W source otherwise I raped him. And game 3 mull 5 into Bayou that got wasted (I told you, shit happens...)


Things I would like to try out:
1 more Pattern of Rebirth and 1 Altar's Reap.
I've got a friend who plays less control, and more all-in with more "Targets" (Griselbrand, Emrakul, Angel of Despair), Living Wishes and 3 Eureka / 3 Omniscience MD

So this is it. If people wanna try out this, I'd be happy to hear any feedback !!

PS:
@Epic: Draw machine ? Wall of Blossom > Horizon Canopy
@Arianrhod: Agree with Qweerios, Thrun overlaps Sigarda. In a Terminus field I would play Sigarda over Thrun.
@Qweerios: Sun Titan absolutely rocks Grave and Prime. I would play a Pattern of Rebirth in BGw just for him. Question of taste I guess :p
Karn vs Vraska: God damn knows how much I would like to play Karn, but yeah 7 is still too much even for Nic Fit. You would need to pack some Culling the Week for Karn.
Sorry that cards are not linked, not use to the board interface yet.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Good point. Trying to suggest a land for that . Stirring Wildwood or whatever in Arianhoods list.

[Arianrhod]

@Vilnico -- Why aren't you running a singleton Living Wish with an Emrakul in the sideboard? At that point, it gives you a legitimate combo finish, because you can sac Rector to Intent, put Omni into play, Intent finds Wish, Wish for Emrakul, gg...all in one smooth motion. It also only takes 1 main and 1 sb slot, so it's pretty compact. I like the Scroll Rack technology here -- one of the main problems I've always had with people suggesting Omni in a Rector build is the "what if you draw it" question, which Rack solves. I'm not sure I like Bone Splinters, but eh. I can see why you'd want it. Definitely feels like you can do better than the Sorin/Souls backup plan. I also feel that you're way too focused on the combo, and your shell suffers a bit. You could easily make your shell much stronger, and leave the combo elements as just 1x Omni, 1x Wish. You'd be a little heavier into like Intent than other versions, obviously, but I don't think you need the Pattern, E. Tutor, Eladrami's Calls, etc. I don't have time at the moment to propose a list, but I'll try to get to you early next week.

@Qweerios -- Cutting Thrun is probably fine. Thragtusk is one of the best cards you can run in the current meta (at least around here), and I don't think that 2 is overkill at all -- especially since the deck wants to be doing silly things with Trostani, and Tusk is a good token-maker to populate for value. Now, that being said however, I do like your point about Acidic Slime, which is something that I forgot existed. Despite my love for Swagtusk, I could see chopping one for a Slime, very easily.

Master might not be good enough, and could be another token-maker of an indeterminate nature. He's something else to populate, and populating his tokens makes him live removal quicker. There's probably something better than him -- I just can't think of what it is off the top of my head. Replace with any solid token maker and move on. Garruk Primal Hunter?

I'm inclined to agree regarding Decay. I'm fond of StP for the sake of it being StP, but I think Decay completely pushes it out of the archetype, sadly.

Primeval will always be better in your mind, because you prefer Two Towers, where I usually opt for Nightmare as my recursion engine (which synergizes much better with Sun Titan).

Did you see my thoughts on Vraska vs Karn?

@All -- you guys should read Carsten's article today: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25060-Eternal-Europe-Mana-Mania.html

There's some very good theoretical legwork in there about why ramp decks are becoming better and better positioned in the current metagame, and why they're just now becoming part of the meta. If you want to understand the theory behind "why" the deck you're playing is well-positioned, here you go.

One note that's relevant is that since Carsten doesn't talk specifically about Nic Fit in this article (other than a minor mention at the end), his point about Zoo and other aggro decks is not referring to us specifically. Moat still shits on goblins, and I still have never lost a single game to Zoo. Any kind of boogeyman-prophecied return of aggro doesn't intimidate me. I can definitely agree with his point as specifically referring to 12post and Solar Tezz, though.

[slikwilly]

@All -- you guys should read Carsten's article today: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25060-Eternal-Europe-Mana-Mania.html

There's some very good theoretical legwork in there about why ramp decks are becoming better and better positioned in the current metagame, and why they're just now becoming part of the meta. If you want to understand the theory behind "why" the deck you're playing is well-positioned, here you go.

One note that's relevant is that since Carsten doesn't talk specifically about Nic Fit in this article (other than a minor mention at the end), his point about Zoo and other aggro decks is not referring to us specifically. Moat still shits on goblins, and I still have never lost a single game to Zoo. Any kind of boogeyman-prophecied return of aggro doesn't intimidate me. I can definitely agree with his point as specifically referring to 12post and Solar Tezz, though.

It will be a sad day for me if/when Carsten ends up on the Premium side of SCG.

[vilnico]

@Arianrhod:
I don't see the point in doing Intent into LWish to Emrakul, if you already have 1 Emrakul MD ? Just go Intent in to Emrakul no ? ^^
If you talk about having LWish instead of the MD Emrakul, I don't see the advantage in that. Except that it would open a LWish toolbox.
Also, if you don't pack the Emrakul MD, even with Omniscience on board E.Call and GSZ are no win-con anymore, where as those spells don't get L.Wish. Or you would have to play 4 L.Wish to cope with that loss.

Bone Splinters: originally it was 2 Innocent Blood. So they were supposed to kill 1 creature on each board. Splinters does quite the same, but you don't get to bt StP'd you Rector in response of Innocent Blood (yes stupid things happens sometimes). I still keep 1 I.Blood in order to be able to kill some creatures when we don't have.

I don't really understand your point for "being too focused on the combo", and "getting the (combo ?) shell much stronger" ?
Sounds contradictory to me.
Though I could hear that my shell is NOT too focused on the combo, as I pack a token gameplan. That is because I think that packing more tutors could be harmful somehow.
And anyway, even getting the combo shell stronger will not likely make you stronger than any other regular combo deck. So I don't think it would be worth going that way.
Can you maybe detail what you mean by getting the stronger shell ?

Though, I am supposed to play a weird format soon, with 20 min per rounds o_0
Meaning there should not be any UW Miracle around, or heavy control.
So I am gonna list something "more qll in" just to test. Will let you know how it goes.

One comment about StP:
+1 with you Arianrhod. Even with Decay out here, StP still remains the best removal to me.
To Qweerios, I believe StP is the first reason to splash white on Nic Fit. Then Sun Titan and finally Rector. I see it more that way (but again, matter of taste: I don't like Grave Titan, and hate B.Pod for example)

[Qweerios]

It's pretty safe to conclude that StP has no relevant application in Nic Fit since the printing of Decay, and honestly, I think it's quite obvious why... I am about to go to bed, but in case anyone doesn't get it, feel free to let it be known.

Also, I really do want to put my white duals to work but I can't find a good reason to, besides Rector. If anyone can advance any reasons as to how a white splash in GB Nic Fit has value, valid arguments and/or examples would be welcomed.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Eh ... Swords/Path is still applicable for the exile effect, especially considering how many legacy staples rely on the graveyard in some shape or form (Goyf, Dredge, Flashback, Threshold) and it has that nice bonus of getting rid of Dark Depths tokens (if that is a threat still).

The question then is: how much can a deck like Nic Fit apply Swords/Path? And I'm afraid I'm with Qweerios on this one: Abrupt Decay is just better for us.

However, I do believe white has more to offer than just Swords/Path and Rector: namely Vindicate as a Pulse+Wasteland substitute (which, lets be honest: Vindicate is better than Pulse unless your opponent overextends with multiple copies of the same nonland permanent [which Pernicious Deed tends to overlap here as well] or you have multiple Explorers out).

EDIT: Also, in regards to the Carsten article, it told us a lot about what we already knew regarding matchups (i.e. Nic Fit wins against fair decks, but not against unfair decks), but also something I didn't know: that the ramp Nic Fit pushes out is rather "tame" compared to Solsignet and 12 Post. Plus the comment about how the mana acceleration is actually part of the mana base makes a lot of sense.

This leads me to believe that Nic Fit could be better streamlined a bit in terms of how many slots are dedicated to ramping. I mean we do a pretty good job of that already, considering 4 to 5 slots for Veteran and a singleton manadork/Sakura-Tribe Elder, with Green Sun's Zenith being able to fetch anything from ramp to utility to win-con. But, what if we added more GSZs in the form of a Living Wish package with Bojuka Bog for grave-based decks like Reanimator and Dredge, Angel of Despair for Eldrazites, and additional mana ramp such as Ancient Tomb. Maybe even a big bad Eldrazi as a win-con once you have the mana out.

Imagine this hypothetical godhand: Vet, Therapy, Wish, Bayou, Land, Titan, Deed.
T1: Bayou, Therapy
T2: Vet, Therapy Flashback, Land, Deed
T3: Tomb Wish, Tomb
T4: Titan

So, by turn 3, we're looking at six mana to work with off of a 2-land hand; eight by turn 4 if we used Prime Time instead of Grave Daddy or Sunny Boy. We also tore any key pieces from our opponents' hand with double Therapy, and we also have multiple contigency plans in case of a bad matchup (i.e. Wish for Angel or Bojuka Bog; blow up the Deed); and three cards left in the hand.

E2: Disclaimer! Godhands may be rare, but they can happen! I suggest building a Wish Fit deck via proxies or online testing/goldfishing services and see how workable the hands you get are ^_^.

[Kanti]

Thoughts on running a Persecute in the sideboard for a Wish version? Maybe cuttting a Throughtseize.

And thanks for the suggestion of cutting a Huntmaster. I've been testing with 3 Wood Elves and have one with Exodus art so I could see whether I wanted it to be an Huntmaster. I pretty much always want it to be an Elf.

edit: whats do you guys thing in replacing 1 Thragtusk with Genesis or Shivan Wurm with? The Wurm looks pretty damn saucy.

5 life and 2 chump blocks does do work though. STP protection on top of that is particularly nice.

[kabards]

edit: whats do you guys thing in replacing 1 Thragtusk with Genesis or Shivan Wurm with? The Wurm looks pretty damn saucy.

5 life and 2 chump blocks does do work though. STP protection on top of that is particularly nice.

Try Argothian Wurm rather than Shivan Wurm :cool:

[Firepaw3]

Hey guys ive been reading this thread for ahwile now but never posted anything on it, but i thought I would post a report on here from my 3-2 with scapewish, this is my first time reporting so i apologize if its abit rambly
my maindeck was the same as airinrhods woth some changes to the board:
Vs miracles
G1 he got an early clique taking burning with from my hand and proceeded to get top and counterbalance out vs me, i sacced a veteran to thearapy to get enought lands and scapeshifted for the win
G2 out bonfirex2 veteran x1 therapy x1
In carpet of flowers x2 phyrexian arena x1
He dident do much besides counter some spells, i ran him out of counters after attemptung a scapeshift, GSZ for eternal witness for scapeshift won next turn

Round 2 vs friend playing my RUG deck
He got a game loss for deck registration and i procceeded to rip two deeds off the top to grind him out, scapeshift wins me the game

Round 3 vs landstill
I get randomly deck checked and lose round one for an unsleeved mountain in the other compartment of my deck box, gotta be more careful next time
Game 2 I mull to four and a standstill puts him one turn out of reach

Round 4 vs storm
Dont remember much of this match but i get destroyed in two games

Round 5 vs burn
Game one I draw 3 veterans on a mull to 4 and get him to 7 needing to win next turn, so i bonfire myself for 1 setting me to 6 and cast primeval titan, he has the rift and bolt

No board, G2 i start with vet, he plays goblin guide and swings trigger gets me a land and vet gets me 2 more, i untap and play a huntmaster he plays another goblin guide and lava mancer, his guides hit 2 more lands and i block one he bolts my huntmaster, on my turn i play and crack deed, from there I huntmaster and thragtusk w/ stronghold and tower until I get enough life to live through a price of progress and scapeshift
G3 he gets me to 4 while i get him to 2 with thragtusk and gsz for huntmaster hoping he doesent draw price next turn, and he doesent

Overall i did well, the only mistake i think I made playing was gsz for 2 against landstill forgetting that spell snare was a card, the deck played great and I hope to keep going to tournamets with it

[Cybey]

Firepaw, could you provide us with your decklist?

[Viridia]

Why did you board out a Cabal Therapy vs Miracles? It's probably better to board out another Explorer and keep the discard in :)

[Arianrhod]

Okay -- I ran a version of Future Fit at my local on Saturday, and I have a report to provide. I don't have the exact list in front of me at the moment, so I'm going to try to reconstruct it from memory and then I can edit it later with the precise version.


4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
3x Baleful Strix
2x Eternal Witness
1x Magus of the Future
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Helm of Awakening
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Engineered Explosives

1x Future Sight
2x Pernicious Deed

4x Brainstorm
1x Noxious Revival

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
2x Extirpate
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Virtue's Ruin
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Negate
1x Vraska the Unseen


I think that's fairly close to what I played. I had a massive derp moment Friday night, where I ended FNM so exhausted that I apparently walked out of the room without my backpack. My friends immediately saved it (our FNMs are only 14-18 people usually, and everyone knows me, so it's not like it was really in danger), and one of the guys that was going to be in my car the following day kept it overnight for me. Unfortunately, this meant that when I woke up Saturday morning to build my deck, I kind of didn't have my binders and such to actually do the building -- as a result, I threw like all of my useful commons/uncommons/built decks into another backpack and just built the deck on-site. I'm fairly sure that had I actually been able to brew it at home, with less pressure on me, I would have been able to build it better. But, it is what it is.

R1: U/W Miracles

G1 I sit on a Deed for a while. He Cunning Wishes for Disenchant and blows it up, then Entreats for 5 angels. I'm sitting pretty at 24 life thanks to Elixir, so I survive a hit and get another draw step...which finds another land.

G2 I blow him out with Negate like a boss, then we durdle for a while. I Cranial his Entreats, but he quickly finds a Jace and starts +2ing. I eventually manage to sneak in a Jace of my own, just in time, too, as his Jace was at 13. Naturally he has the final remaining copy in his hand already, and I can't find an answer to the third Jace before dying. He had some truly bullshit Counterbalances this game (he boarded out 2 of his Terminuses because this version is creature-light, but he left one in as a reset button. I attempt to hardcast Primeval Titan on like turn 4 or 5, and be blind-flips the sole remaining Terminus, as the only 6 in his deck. Sick life). I also never saw Future Sight or Magus.

R2: Moatless Rector Nic Fit

One of my converts. He's not running Moat, so he is running Armada Wurm, a second Thragtusk, etc. Not one of my lists, but it's still a solid build.

G1 I drop Future Sight fairly early, and proceed to generate a -ludicrous- amount of advantage of it. Seriously, the card is stupid. I didn't have Top or anything to break it going on .... just Future Sight by itself. I drown him in cards for a while, then I assemble the combo and Tendrils him for something approaching infinite.

G2 he comes out really aggro while we rip each others' hands apart with Therapy. I make a crucial misplay here where I don't allow him to sac his Rector and Extirpate it, choosing to Extirpate his Therapies instead for some really dumb reason. That stupid Rector ends up punching me to death, as I sat at 1 life, but able to block his Thragtusk and his Witness....just not the Rector, too. Armada Wurm did serious work for him this game.

G3 starts with like 8 minutes left on the clock. We play pretty quickly, and I land a Future Sight effect as we start going into time. He had been beating me down pretty badly, but I stabilized with Baleful Strixes, which he was unwilling to attack into with his Sigarda. I get turn 1. I do a bunch of stuff off the top of my deck, and see a Primeval Titan. I sigh, cast it, get my lands, and make a few more small plays. I still don't have a Top, or the Helm, whereas he has no cards in hand, but a Top and an Arena in play with something like 15 life. He draws, tops, and draws, and tops, plays a land and like an Explorer or something, and ships it back. T3 I do a bunch of stuff but fail to hit a Top. I do find Helm, and Tendrils is on top of my deck when I pass turn. I've built up a sandbagged onslaught of one-drops in my hand, including both Extirpates, just in case I have to try to Tendrils him the hard way, since I still haven't found a Top. He Therapies me, naming Helm, and then Surgicals it. Welp. T5 of turns, I finally hit my goddamn Top, Do a bunch of 1-drops, draw a few cards with Top, do a few more cheap things, and then Tendrils for just over lethal. My head was ****ing hurting at the end of this.

R3: RUG

He mulls to 5 g1 with me on the play. I therapy him naming Stifle, and tilts, and reveals 2. Sick mull to 3, brah. Unsurprisingly, he never does anything approaching worrisome status this game. I just run him over.

G2 I don't exactly remember what happened, but I know I won. Yay me!

R4: Death and Taxes

He's 3-0, and is in my car, so he's probably going to scoop me to be sure I get in the top 4 (we had a bad turnout because everyone is saving money for the GP this weekend). We play game one anyway, and I slaughter him. He manages to Revoker my Deeds, but then he gets blown out by Engineered Explosives. I loop EE with Acadamy Ruins, and he scoops.

T4: Death and Taxes

Hey lookit.

G1 he can't name all of my activated abilities with Revoker, and I blow up his shit. I think he got stormed out here...not sure.

G2 I Therapy him naming Revoker, he has 2...his Virtue gets Ruined...and I inflict a Pernicious Deed upon him. He walks away grumbling about never being able to beat Nic Fit.

Finals: Goblins

Not much to say here. G1 he has the NUT HIGH, double Lackey into Ringleader + Kiki-Jiki, into like triple Piledriver. Sick life.

G2 I put up a better fight, but he manages to kill me with exactsies just before I go infinite.

I use some credit I had on system previously along with my winnings to collect my 4th Tundra, as I continue working on re-acquiring staples that I had to get rid of a while back.

So....things I learned about Future Fit:

--) Most importantly, it IS viable. However, it is very subpar compared to Scapewish and Rector at this point. I do believe that at least a good amount of that can be blamed on the specific list. I have some ideas (to be discussed further below) that will likely improve the deck, and I do think that it stands a chance of becoming a solid choice for a BUG version.

--) Needs more vs hard aggro. Most specifically, it needs a Damnation somewhere in the 75. There were several times when I wished I could just Grim Tutor->Damnation and be done with it, rather than having to jump through hoops with Deed and EE. Goblins is a serious problem, and as their star continues to rise in the metagame, something needs to be done about that for this deck to flourish.

--) Grim Tutor is the sex. The only time I felt uneasy about using it was vs Goblins. Otherwise, it found me what I needed, when I needed it, with no strings attached. It helped assemble the combo, it fetched Future Sight, it did everything. The mana cost was never a problem. Rector still wants Intent, because saccing a creature is good, but I think that Grim Tutor is the go-to Tutor outside of Rector. Unfortunately there are some cost obvious problems therein, but if I was going to try to find room in Scapewish for a tutor, for example, it would be Grim. Highly recommend.

--) Tendrils maindeck was really frustrating. I kind of want to use Cunning Wish instead, to get Brain Freeze, but there were too many times where the fact that my storm spell was Tendrils was actually important (mini-Tendrils for lifegain, etc). I wouldn't have beaten my Nic Fit opponent if my storm spell was anything but Tendrils. My possible solution is Death Wish. I'm fine paying half of my life for a Karakas against Show and Tell, for example. Etc. There is a very high possibility that this is a bad idea, but I'm going to test it at some point.

--) Elixir is secretly amazing. 5 Life on demand is surprisingly sweet -- Elixir is like a Thragtusk that shuffles back in after it comes into play. It was a very solid shuffle effect for Future Sight, Top, and Brainstorm, and the 5 life was relevant on multiple occasions.

--) EE/Ruins is a hell of a note. Having an EE alongside the Deeds was great, as it allowed me to dodge Pithing Needle and Revoker all day. Obviously, there's the problem of finding it, which is where the Grim Tutors came in for this version, but I don't know that it's something that other versions can take much from, unfortunately.

--) Stronghold/Ruins are amazing with Future Sight. This is obvious and self-explanatory, but actually getting to do it just feels plain dirty.

--) Vraska is ass. I boarded her in a couple times, and she ended up not pulling her weight. I'm pretty sad about that, because I wanted her to be as good as she is in standard. Seems it's not in the cards, though. Firm "Stay Away" opinion, now.

--) Jace is ass. The only times Jace did anything for me all day was when he was acting as a 4-mana Destroy Target Jace -- even when I had Future Sight out and was actively trying to set up brainstorms with FS....he just didn't do anything. As backwards as it seems, I don't think Future Fit wants planeswalkers.

--) The combo is weird to pull off. You ideally want a Top anyway, because Nic Fit is much better of a deck with Top. You don't care about having Tendrils, because when you go off, you'll have it. That just leaves the Helm was the weak point. Funny side-note about Helm: it completely undoes Thalia. I would NOT be surprised to see Storm combo decks running Helms in the future just to deal with Thalia (not saying they will, just that I wouldn't be surprised). Redundant Future Sight effects make babies cry, but finding Future Sight was still a problem. I don't think that splashing white for Rector or E.T. is the answer.

--) The deck is very mana-hungry. If I try Death Wish, I kind of want to put in Coffers/Urborg, to solve that problem (and to make mini-Tendrils much easier, since you could theoretically loop 2 Tops for storm count if you have the mana). On a related note, Coiling Oracle is sweet with Future Sight, since you always know when to play it for full value.

--) Needs more bullets. The Grim Tutors and Witnesses allow the deck to act as a lot more toolbox-y than I thought it would. It's really hard to tell when it's correct to shuffle in with Elixir vs when to let your yard sit there for Witness. This seems very anti-synergistic, but I actually didn't have much of a problem with it. Always being able to reuse your stuff is amazing.

-------

I'll try to present an updated list at some point. I definitely have some ideas. But yeah -- there's some thoughts from Future Fit's maiden voyage.

[Firepaw3]

Firepaw, could you provide us with your decklist?

4 veteran explorer
2 eternal witness
3 wood elves
3 huntmaster of the fells
2 thragtusk
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
4 green suns zenith
2 bonfire of the damned
2 scapeshift
4 burning wish
3 pernicious deed
3 sensei's divining top

2 valakut, the molten pinnacle
1 volraths stronghold
1 phyrexian tower
4 taiga
1 stomping ground
2 bayou
3 badlands
2 swamp
3 mountain
5 forest

Sideboard:
1 reanimate
1 maelstrom pulse
1 collective voyage
1 tsunami
1 damnation
1 innocent blood
1 chainers edict
1 pulverize
2 phyrexian areana
3 carpet of flowers
1 virtues ruin
1 scapeshift

The sideboard definatly needs a cranial extraction or slaughter games, but i dont know what to cut for it

[Firepaw3]

Why did you board out a Cabal Therapy vs Miracles? It's probably better to board out another Explorer and keep the discard in :)

That probably would have been better, I havent had any practice vs miracles with this deck so i wasent really sure how to board right against it

[vilnico]

@Firepaw: I would board out either a Collective Voyage, or a Phyrexian Arena to get a Slaughter Games in. As you alreayd have 3 SDT main deck, I would get an Arena out.

@Arianrhod: In Death Wish, "Danger of Cool Things" I read :laugh:
Other than that, you're just convincing me to play Future Sight as a Rector target in BGw :smile:
I would continue trying Jace in your list, just to make sure he's not so worth it.
I don't see Vraska outside BG or BGw builds, just an intuition.
Do you have some thoughts about the Magus, and Volrath's Stronghold ?

[Greenpoe]

Arianrhod, wouldn't it just be better to cut the Tendrils combo and run a third Jace and a couple Liliana? With the ruins lock, you should be able to deal with anything that happens on the board. Other thing is, three colors and 3 lands that tap for just colorless in a deck where you need UUU, BB and GG. Plus, you often times end up wanting GU or UB on turn 2. I would consider cutting reshaping the manabase a little to make things go smoother.

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, wouldn't it just be better to cut the Tendrils combo and run a third Jace and a couple Liliana? With the ruins lock, you should be able to deal with anything that happens on the board. Other thing is, three colors and 3 lands that tap for just colorless in a deck where you need UUU, BB and GG. Plus, you often times end up wanting GU or UB on turn 2. I would consider cutting reshaping the manabase a little to make things go smoother.

Probably. I'm also incredibly stubborn. A little window into my psyche:

I'm a huge fan of vintage, or rather, the style of deck you can play in vintage known as combo-control. This is possible because you can run a control shell, but you can effectively make your deck also function as a combo deck because vintage has a lot of efficient combos. Combo-control doesn't really exist in any format other than vintage, because the efficient combos don't exist outside of it, largely. Either the combo costs too much mana to be effective, or a piece of it is banned, or who knows. I am also a firm believer in the power of archetypes in legacy that have seen little to no respect in the community at large. Ramp is one such archetype, and Nic Fit is my chosen baby therein. I played MUD like two years ago for a while, but that was Forgemaster MUD, not Timur-MUD (as I didn't know Timur at the time), and I grew frustrated by its inconsistencies. Enter Commander decks, which exposed me to Veteran Explorer, and the rest is academic.

I also subscribe to Carsten's hybridization theory, in part because this theory has legacy eventually becoming closer to vintage as decks continue to hybridize which roles they can play. I also have the problem where when I like a certain worldview, I try to make it happen.

This leaves us with a deckbuilder who likes hybrid decks resulting in a combo-control shell, who likes to buck what other people think. I am fully aware that this is a dangerous combination, and one which is likely to end to disaster.

So yeah, it may very well result in a better deck if you cut the Tendrils package. But I WANT it to work, so I'm going to put the effort in to see if I can get it to work.

TL;DR: if you want a deck that actually works and is good and refined and awesome and stuff, stick with Rector or Scapewish (or someone else's lists). Feel free to ignore me as I try to force this to work. If I was actually smart, I would just shake my head and walk away admitting that it can't be done / the legacy meta isn't there yet. Unfortunately, I'm not smart :P

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ future fit: I think tendrils and helm are win-more in the sense that future sight with one top and some mana acts as a super charged draw engine. However, there is the possibility of adding an unrelated combo package because we'll dominate the board until we draw it out.

[Greenpoe]

Yeah, so 1-of Laboratory Maniac in the SB (fetchable by Living Wish) could be your "combo-win" (Future Sight + Top=draw your deck within a few turns, or leave Helm in to draw your deck immediately). They try and remove it? You just win in response. If you really want to go nuts, add a single MD Thought Lash, but this would be unnecessary. At any rate, Living Wish>Tendrils for versatility, and Lab Maniac gets around Leyline of Sanctity/Solitary Confinement (although drawing your deck means you could probably deal with those, but whatever).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Future fit meets wish fit? I'm sold!

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, so 1-of Laboratory Maniac in the SB (fetchable by Living Wish) could be your "combo-win" (Future Sight + Top=draw your deck within a few turns, or leave Helm in to draw your deck immediately). They try and remove it? You just win in response. If you really want to go nuts, add a single MD Thought Lash, but this would be unnecessary. At any rate, Living Wish>Tendrils for versatility, and Lab Maniac gets around Leyline of Sanctity/Solitary Confinement (although drawing your deck means you could probably deal with those, but whatever).

If only you could Living Wish for Tendrils =(

[Viridia]

Hmm i do have a foil Future Sight and Living Wishes somewhere, i likey :P

[Greenpoe]

If only you could Living Wish for Tendrils =(

Living Wish would still make a really good 2-of. Wish for Lab Maniac to win, win for Magus of the Future if you're well-positioned but don't have your Future Sight out, wish for Thragtusk if you're in a poor position. You don't need to dilute the SB much with it, just a few targets. But if you really want to go crazy with 3 or 4 of them, then add in a Leveler or Diving Witch to win without Future Sight/Top (Double wish + Top with 8 mana = win the game next turn) but that's probably overboard. At any rate, once you actually have Future Sight and Top out, you're in a fantastic position, which is why I think Living Wish is good to seal the deal. I think your list suffers from trying to do too many things. I think the EE+Ruins combo can be safely cut (just add the 3rd Deed back in). Colorless lands are mediocre as land in such a color-intensive list. I think the Phyrexian Tower could be cut as well, leaving in Stronghold though, because recurring Thragtusks and Strixes and Coiling Oracles can be pretty good.

[Zirath]

Good to hear progress happening. I came to similar conclusions about Jace as you did (and Gabe is starting to as well in some cases). There needs to be better paths to assemble the combo or even get out Future Sight. The card is just the stones.

[Arianrhod]

Good to hear progress happening. I came to similar conclusions about Jace as you did (and Gabe is starting to as well in some cases). There needs to be better paths to assemble the combo or even get out Future Sight. The card is just the stones.

I don't really WANT to go down the 5-color path, but it might be what it takes. Rectors for easy access to Future Sight, Burning Wish for Tendrils. I mean, it's worth considering that we DO have Chromatic Lantern and City of Brass to play around with, and 3 is one of our "magic numbers." Lantern also makes Fetches tap for mana, and ramps by itself. I'm really trying to avoid looking into that avenue too much, but blegh. And yeah, having Future Sight out is just retarded. It's so hard to lose with a resolved Future Sight if you're at all stabilized when you get it. So much value.

[Viridia]

I think i'm going to run the Dutch Legacy Championship with 4-color Rector-Science :D

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

15 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer


23 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Future Sight
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Omniscience
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)

1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Thragtusk
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Memoricide
1 Nether Void
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Why? Because it's awesome ^^

[Greenpoe]

This is what I've come to for a Future-fit list:

Lands
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Spells
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Grim Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Future Sight
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish

Sideboard:
1 Thragtusk
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Negate
1 Trygon Predator
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Magus of the Future
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

I really like that Future Sight is absolutely insane power-level wise. For 5 mana, the same cost as a Thragtusk, you basically win the game. 3 Wish and 2 Grim Tutor are your alternative ways to get Future Sight/Magus of the Future. Lab Maniac is instant-win in case all else fails once you draw your deck off of Top. The MD Thrun might be unnecessary but I don't know what I should replace it with, maybe Lorescale Coatl? Grim Tutor is really wonderful to get a Deed, Future Sight or whatever else you may need, all without them knowing what card you got. I think Jace in the SB is probably not necessary, but it's nice to have an alternate win-con and it's useful vs control decks. The SB is kind of thrown together, but maybe some un-counterable threat would just be better than Jace, anyway (More Thruns? Gaea's Revenge? I don't know).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

New Future Fit list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Arbor Elf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Future Sight
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Magus of the Future
1 Acidic Slime
1 Angel of Despair
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Negate

[sumbahdy]

Sorry been not following the thread receContro Just to ask, is the future sight bug the direction the decks going?

@EPICLEVEL
Isnt the deck trying to do too much? What's the Grim for? I understand the top combo but the tutor am puzzled.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

First Future Fit fouldbvery well be the next Scapewish or Rectorfit, but the archetype of nic fit is pretty diverse as far as archetypes go in Legacy.

Second I'm testing Grim Tutor since Arianhood seems to like it. I have my doubts, but it don"t look terribad.

Third I could probably drop Thrun for deed or gsz, but I need testing before I drop the Stronghold Tower package or the Planeswalker package (though I have to say 3 JMS was one too many). Plus with so much library manipulation and thinning, it'll be hard not to assemble the draw engine by end game.

[waSP]

For the straight Future Sight versions going 4-5 colors, try Enlightened Tutor over Rector. You have to play a little tighter with mana sources, but you should have no trouble casting Future Sight. There's a little more flexibility (especially with Academy Ruins) and a little less susceptibility to things like StP and graveyard hate. It also allows you to hold back information (instant speed). Moat comes down a turn earlier against straight aggro. The significant drawback would come in that it is likely landing a turn later, so if you weren't doing board control the previous turn, you'd be in a worse position. You also lose a card, but if you're blowing them out with an enchantment, that won't matter so much.

[Jokemon]

Wanted to share my deck with you guys. Since all of you seems as grazy and out there as I am :)

My Gifts list
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dryad arbor

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I've taken some inspiration from modern's UW Tron with Unburial Rites. Right now i'm not able to hard cast Iona before sideboard. Unburial Rites has proven a really nice card. Both an awesome Gifts target, and a value card when you draw it. I have some issues with casting Jace, with the current mana base. But it's not to bad of a problem.

Will play the deck at a convention in 2 weeks. Can make a small report how the deck worked for me.

[Arianrhod]

A few thoughts for you, Jokemon:

You're running Recurring Nightmare in a Gifts shell (which means you have easy access to it). I would definitely recommend a Sakura-Tribe Elder. STE makes Nightmare much better, because it's easy to get it into the graveyard. Also, you currently have 0 backup ramp sources behind Veteran. You can GSZ for Arbor, but I really don't like that play in Nic Fit. It's almost always better to save it for an Explorer or for something with more impact. STE ramps from 2->4 (an important number for Gifts), and probably fogs a critter on the way out.

I'm not sure Iona is the Unburial target you want. It has a very severe problem in that it's legendary, and Karakas is EVERYWHERE right now because of Show & Tell. There are two possibilities I would like to suggest: Rune-Scarred Demon and Angel of Serenity. RSD enables a sick chain with Gifts, where you can Gifts for Unburial+Demon, then bring him back and demonic tutor with a 6/6 flyer in play. Usually, unless you need to tutor for something else, you tutor for Recurring Nightmare. Assuming you have something in your graveyard, you can proceed to loop Demon through Nightmare, then, to tutor for anything you could possibly want. This is obviously back-breaking. Angel of Serenity is something I've been eying for Nic Fit usage for a while now -- I suspect that it's worse than Angel of Despair for the Show & Tell hate, because of Sneak Attack and Omniscience (which it doesn't hit). However, for something like your deck, I could definitely see it -- it brings a 5/6 flying body, and it probably wraths their board when it comes in. Then, unlike O-Ring, they don't get the creatures back when it dies -- they go back to their hand, which means that even if the Angel dies, you still don't have to worry about their board state for another turn or two. It buys a ton of time. You can also use it lategame to mass regrow three dead creatures, as well, which is very powerful. Ancestral Recalling Thragtusk, Witness, Witness is stupid.

Why no Sun Titan? When you're not going for Unburial+dude, Sun Titan makes Gifts retarded. Something like:

Sun Titan
Recurring Nightmare
Eternal Witness
Green Sun's Zenith

Is usually an unstoppable pile -- whatever they do, you get everything. Relatedly, you need a 2nd Witness for a deck like this.

Liliana of the Veil is completely unnecessary here, and those slots can be used much better. You don't need her as a discard outlet for your unburial creature, because you can Therapy yourself. You also have Brainstorm to shuffle back in.

Reflecting Pool will fix your mana problems. Pool is seriously underrated in legacy, and it does absolute wonders in 4+ color Nic Fit lists. Usually the natural response to Pool is "oh, well I'll waste your dual and then it does nothing /mandark laugh!" But in Nic Fit, you have basics, so they can't interrupt the Pool's awesomeness as easily.

TL;DR: my thoughts:

+Sun Titan
+Witness
+2 Sakura-Tribe Elder

-2 Liliana of the Veil
-Dryad Arbor
-Scavenging Ooze

+Reflecting Pool
-Windswept Heath

/=/Iona -> RSD/AoS, whichever you prefer

Note: Iona is perfectly fine in the sideboard for vs combo decks. But I think that g1, at least, you want something that's better against more of the legacy metagame in general, and doesn't have as many weaknesses.

Scavenging Ooze also should go to the board IMO, although I've actually been testing cutting mine from Rector in favor of Deathrite Shaman. Shaman is worse vs something like Dredge where you want to eat multiple cards, but the fact that he comes down a whole turn earlier vs something like Reanimator is actually pretty relevant. Deathrite is also sweet vs Goblins, because Lackey can't run into him, and they can't go like t1 Lackey, t2 cycle incinerator, swing -- being a 1/2 is actually surprisingly relevant. That's more experimental, though, and if you like Ooze I'd say move him to the board and don't worry about Deathrite for now.

I kind of think you might also want to consider dropping 1 Abrupt Decay for something like a Damnation...just to diversify your removal suite a bit, and give you more options when Gifting. But that's something that I dunno about really....depends on how much RUG and CBTop there is in your local meta.

------------------------------------------------------

So, I went 3-1 with Scapewish last night at my local, only losing to an Emrakul after he topdecked exactly what he needed like 3 times in a row. /shrug. Nothing particularly of relevance except for the last round, where I got to do something -sweet-.

I'm playing vs Bant. He has out a Leyline of Sanctity, and we're in turns. I have 2 Deeds and 3 Burning Wishes left in deck, no non-mountain lands left in deck with both Valakuts in play, and like 6 mountains. I also have a Primeval Titan. He starts in turns at 18 (I'm turns 2 and 4, so I can't kill him with just Primeval). I also have a Top in play, but my Top is sucking dick and showing me garbage still. So on turn 4 of turns, my last turn, he's at 12. I Top. Garbage. I draw a Veteran Explorer, sac it to Phy Tower for the shuffle, and use one of the mana to Top. Garbage. I swing with Titan, putting him to 6. Top. Garbage. I Wood Elves for the shuffle. I Top. Garbage. I Green Sun for 0 to shuffle. I Top. Finally, a Burning Wish! I Wish for Pulse, Pulse his Leyline, then cast another Wood Elves from my hand, getting a Taiga and dealing the last 6 points. Ridiculous turn. Felt crazy good though =D

I'll be at GP Philly this weekend, if anyone else is going. I'll be playing the main event, and we'll see how that goes from there. I will definitely have my various Nic Fit decks on me, so odds are pretty good I'll be in at least one or two legacy side events at some point throughout the weekend. I think Steve's planning on doing a couple as well.

[Cybey]

Arianrhod, what's your current Scapewish list?

I'm a bit embarrassed to ask the following question:
How do you use Huntmaster of the Fells in the Scapewish decks? Do you only play it for the 2 life and the token and just try to recur it? Does it ever flip?
Could I substiute them with Kitchen Finks since I don't own any Huntmasters atm?

[Arianrhod]

ScapeWish:

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan

3x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Scapeshift
2x Bonfire of the Damned

4x Taiga
3x Badlands
3x Bayou
2x Stomping Ground
4x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Thoughtseize
1x Slaughter Games
1x Tsunami
1x Pulverize
1x Damnation
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Reanimate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Scapeshift

I need to come up with a more convenient way to store my current lists so I don't have to go hunting for them every time someone asks for them =(

If you don't own Huntmasters and are unable/unwilling to pick them up, Finks is an "okay" substitute, but it's nowhere near as good. Hutnmaster does several things:

It does actually quite regularly flip. Just last night I had two Huntmasters that I was flipping back and forth and just buried my opponent in advantage. Flipping a Hunts to do 2 damage to a planeswalker, shoot a blocker, then crash in for 6 (4 of which tramples) is big game. The fact that he's split into 2 bodies (at least) is definitely relevant. Put it this way: Huntmaster is both defensive and offensive, compared to Thragtusk who is pretty defensive. Huntmaster makes two blockers and gains two life (usually worth a 2nd token). If you're on the beatdown, he applies a ton of pressure -- not just by himself, but because he forces your opponent to play around him. Like, they have to keep casting spells. If they flood out, he flips. If you just pass your turn without doing anything, he flips -- unless they save a Brainstorm for EoT usage, which by that point in the game is highly suboptimal. Scapewish can easily cast two spells in a turn to flip him back, and then the pressure is back -- after they've taken 2 damage, lost a dude, and you've gained 2 life and a dude. It's a ton of pressure.

It's also worth remembering that he's a 4-drop, which is pretty good in Scapewish in general, and is really hard for Miracles to counterbalance. The fact that he's a split body is very relevant in that matchup, and Miracles tends to run out of gas and end up topdecking a lot, which makes him even scarier because they have to use Top sub-optimally to keep him from flipping (draw on upkeep, re-cast Top).

[Kanti]

I've been testing a Persecute over a Seize and goddamn is it amazing. With all the mono and 2color strategies in Legacy right now it's been backbreaking vs certain decks. It is a tad bit slow, but I've had it hit 3+ cards many times.

Also, thoughts on Firespout in the sb? I've really wanted a board wipe effect that wasn't Damnation against lots of decks. I'd like to leave Virtue's Ruin in there so I cut a Seize for it, and I have been playing with Pyroclasm/Spout and like it a lot. I wish for it a lot more than say Slaughter Games.

Still that leaves me with cutting REBs to max out on Tseizes and I'm not sure thats right. REB seems pretty potent. My desire for Wish targets is strong ;/.

[Viridia]

I need to come up with a more convenient way to store my current lists so I don't have to go hunting for them every time someone asks for them =(


Use docs.google.com and put them in there and make it so that everyone with the link can see it, then put the links in your sig :)

[Oiolosse]

Okay, that does it! I am getting into Nic Fit. I am a convert. I have been toying around with Pox lists lately. BG and BGw, both with loam. I love grindy, control decks and playing non-blue control is tons of fun. I am down to proxy and try all versions of Nic Fit to see what I like the most but I don't own any red duals and the blue duals I own don't tap for green! So, I will go the Rector build first to see how I like that. I have most of the deck, just need to pick up some of the bullets and utility 1-ofs.

GSZ is universal I assume, even in the Rector version? It seems as though it's still used just not as heavily? Also, I noticed that the Rector versions don't seem to use as many enchantments as I would expect. Deed, Nightmare, Moat (of which I have none), what else? I've seen Phyrexian Arena, Fetters, and not much else...so I will go this route and try to break here further.

Thanks for always creating a great discussion to follow. Now, I can take part in it.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, that does it! I am getting into Nic Fit. I am a convert. I have been toying around with Pox lists lately. BG and BGw, both with loam. I love grindy, control decks and playing non-blue control is tons of fun. I am down to proxy and try all versions of Nic Fit to see what I like the most but I don't own any red duals and the blue duals I own don't tap for green! So, I will go the Rector build first to see how I like that. I have most of the deck, just need to pick up some of the bullets and utility 1-ofs.

GSZ is universal I assume, even in the Rector version? It seems as though it's still used just not as heavily? Also, I noticed that the Rector versions don't seem to use as many enchantments as I would expect. Deed, Nightmare, Moat (of which I have none), what else? I've seen Phyrexian Arena, Fetters, and not much else...so I will go this route and try to break here further.

Thanks for always creating a great discussion to follow. Now, I can take part in it.

Welcome to the club =)

Non-blue control is definitely awesome!

GSZ is indeed universal. All versions run either 3 or 4 copies, although 2 has (rarely) been seen as well. Off the top of my head, Rector features the following as targets:

4 Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe
2 Witness
1 Empath (-> Titan + Yosei)
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
(SB) 1 Ooze or Deathrite

That gives a total of 12 creatures, which is a fifth of your deck. While it's true that Green Sun can't find things like Rectors and Baneslayers, there's still plenty of utility to be had. Also, there have been many games where Green Sunning for X=0 just for a shuffle for Top is perfectly acceptable. I'll grant that it might not be quite as much of an all-star in Rector as it is in something like Scapewish (or Maverick, obviously), but it's still definitely quite powerful and integral to the deck.

As for enchantments:

3 Deed
1 Moat
1 Fetters
1 Nightmare
1 Arena
(SB options)

3 Rectors with 7 targets isn't a bad ratio, especially since you can't rely on them to go off. There is a go-to enchantment in those 7 for each situation. It's worth keeping in mind that Rector can always act as removal thanks to Fetters, and that works for -any- non-Progenitus permanent, including Thrun, Emrakul, etc. You can reasonably expect to set off one, maybe two Rectors per game. That lets you get your go-to, and then any one secondary. You'll also be drawing some naturally, of course, Topping to find them, etc.

The other thing with Rector is that, there's only so much room for bullets maindeck. The list as I have it is incredibly tight, and it's really hard to find room for other fun stuff. Most of that gets relegated to the board. I usually have anywhere from 3-6 "bullet" enchantments in my board that I can bring in to wreak havoc on any specific archetype I don't like. When you consider those alongside the maindeck options, there is actually quite a large number of targets. It balances out a lot better in actual play than it seems like it should when you just look at it.

If you don't have access to a Moat, you should at least proxy it for now and try it out. It really does make a big difference to the deck. That said, you can run Rector without Moat -- it just requires a few design considerations (Baneslayer isn't quite as necessary, although she's still stupid good....you need an Armada Wurm for sure at that point, etc).

But yeah -- welcome to the discussion!

[litenkatt]

@arianrhod

Did you finally get rid of that stupid rusalka? :D happy days

Also regarding moat, moat is a good card but not a must IMO. Been playing with a humility in that slot instead and to be honest, I do find myself sideboarding out the humility quite a lot buuut when I actually play against a deck where its good, its crazy good.

Moat stops like all the tribal decks? elves/goblin/merfolk but thing is, deed does that as well. Deed destroys(destroies? no that cant be right) everything they have whereas Moat doesnt and as soon as they find an answer to it(moat) - they run over you as they still have all their shit in play.

But again, if I had the option to run Moat i'd probably do that. That card can save you a lot of time but again it's really not the end of the world if u doesn't own one.

Been playing with the Rector version a lot now against all kind of decks. I like it more and more and big thanks to you arianrhod for creating this. Not running the exactly same maindeck as you do but its close. Faith's Fetters is indeed better than o-ring. I was just playing with a friend of mine, an hour ago, and I put faith's fetters onto his jace through rector and like 4 turns later he played another jace not realizing that his previous jace is still in play as I didn't actually o-ring it. :-)

[Arianrhod]

@arianrhod

Did you finally get rid of that stupid rusalka? :D happy days

Also regarding moat, moat is a good card but not a must IMO. Been playing with a humility in that slot instead and to be honest, I do find myself sideboarding out the humility quite a lot buuut when I actually play against a deck where its good, its crazy good.

Moat stops like all the tribal decks? elves/goblin/merfolk but thing is, deed does that as well. Deed destroys(destroies? no that cant be right) everything they have whereas Moat doesnt and as soon as they find an answer to it(moat) - they run over you as they still have all their shit in play.

But again, if I had the option to run Moat i'd probably do that. That card can save you a lot of time but again it's really not the end of the world if u doesn't own one.

Been playing with the Rector version a lot now against all kind of decks. I like it more and more and big thanks you you arianrhod for creating this. Not running the exactly same maindeck as you do but its close. Faith's Fetters is indeed better than o-ring. I was just playing with a friend of mine, an hour ago, and I put faith's fetters onto his jace through rector and like 4 turns later he played another jace not realizing that his previous jace is actually still in play as I didn't actually o-ring it. :-)

Isn't that just the greatest feeling ever @jace vs Fetters?

Also, you're right -- it's destroys. English is dumb, I know.

Rusalka is still there and is still an all-star, sadly. I just forgot to include it on the list, because it's a fucking Rusalka.

The issue with Deed vs Tribal is that isn't doesn't necessarily stop them. Goblins in particular can be rough because so much of their stuff is higher CMC. Moat is more to supplement your Deeds and other removal. It can also cause serious problems for Maverick, if they can't draw a Green Sun. It kolds Metalworker except for Hellkite...and most of them only run that as a one-of (then there's Karn, but we don't talk about him...)

But yeah -- I do agree that Moat isn't necessary, but I would say that once you start winning with the deck without Moat, you probably want to put your winnings towards a Moat. It definitely makes a difference once you have it.

And thanks -- she's my baby =)

EDIT-

It occurs to me that I should note that while I believe Moat to be good but "optional," Nether Void, IMO, is not. If you don't want you underwear pulled up around your head vs Storm and Omniscience, Nether Void is the only correct choice. I've tested out a whole hell of a lot of ways to piss off combo decks, and I can definitely state that Void is far and away the best. It's definitely an expensive, hard to find piece -- but it's your best out to combo, and IMO you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't put the effort into finding and acquiring one.

[Megadeus]

The one thing about Moat as compared to deed is against Goblins (the most heavily played tribe) cannot answer a resolved Moat. At that point their only way they can win is with Seige Gang Commander. Merfolk can fly over with Coralhelm Commander, Elves has the best chance of destroying the Moat if they have a Viridian Emissary.

Deed is honestly not that good vs Goblins... They can reload so quickly and easily.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Why not Engineered Plague over Moat for Tribal?

[Kanti]

Plague sucks against lord effects and doesn't help against Delver or Maverick.

What do you guys rocking Scapewish think of cutting a Wood Elf for an Oracle of Mul Daya? It seems like such a beast in that deck on it's on, and even better seeing as that list runs x4 GSZ.


Damia, Sage of Stone seems hot in those Future Fit builds.

[vilnico]

Plague sucks against lord effects and doesn't help against Delver or Maverick.
...

Damia, Sage of Stone seems hot in those Future Fit builds.

Plague sucks yeah
Damia: Not really I guess. I mean it is playable with Gift, Nightmare and so. But seems to me too heavy to set up. And you will want to set Future Sight first. In terms of castable creature, I would rather go for Consecrated Sphinx, or even Sphinx of Uthuun.

@Megadeus: kinda weird, with BGw I never had any trouble vs goblins. And Rector/Deed always won the game. I mean, Veteran and Rector are Moat-like.

@Qweerios : That reminds me this, I still don't understand why, but Goblins are coming back in the meta, and you can't quite ignore them or they would hit hard enough to remind you why StP is StP. I mean OTD Lackey Turn 1, without Veteran in the starting 7, and Decay instead of StP... Baaaaaaaaaaaah

[Cire_dk]

Question: please can I have your opinions to fine tune my deck for the Dutch Legacy championship this Sunday.

Although I am aware that Starved Rusalka is still a favourite for rector nicfit I also noted that Ooze gets boarded in quite a lot. So why would I not play mainboard Ooze instead of Rusalka. imo it does a lot more, especially game 1.

SB: 9 slots taken
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Humility
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Memorocide

This leaves 6 slots: 11 cards to choose from
1 Nethervoid (if I can borrow it)
1 Vraska
1 Abrubt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raking Canopy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Curse of deaths hold
2 Aven Mindcensor

Apart from the above I am going to run the standard Rector list thanks to Arianrhod

[XdeckX]

I must admit I've more experience with ScapeFit (or whatever the best name if for the Scapeshift/Burning Wish version) but here goes...

Starved Rusalka is only in the deck for being a Zenith-able sacoutlet for Academy Rector if you ask me.
Scavenging Ooze fits a completly different role: gravehate (and incidental lifegain) The requirement for gravehate highly depends on the matchup.

-Dredge hate: You need a shitload of mana to keep up with the dredges. Getting Moat into play with Rector solves most issues (unless they use Flayer of the Hatebound and/or Angel of Despair)
-Snapcaster hate: Are you really worried about the flashback of spells with Snapcaster?
-Knight of the Reliquary hate: Moat solves that.
-Loam hate: Getting rid of Loam helps (especially against AggroLoam) but Lands doesnt roll over without Loam. Ooze might be better than Moat here but you still have Memoricide
-Reanimator hate: Ooze is better than Moat since allot of fatties fly and Moat gets bounced by Tidespout Tyrant.

If I were to play the Championship (too bad I cant attend...) and would play RectorFit, I would maindeck Rusalka over Ooze. You need to know what your bad matchups are and determine if Ooze is better than Rusalka. I just feel that overall Rusalka is more flexible since the deck resolves around Rector allot.

I do know where you're coming from with the Ooze question though. I had the same feeling with the ScapeFit list. I cut a Huntmaster for Ooze a couple of times because I felt cold to graveyard decks. If I were to play ScapeFit I would run the 3rd Huntmaster over Ooze (not even putting it in the 75) because it feels like the better creature overall.

[Arianrhod]

@Kanti -- Cutting a Wood Elves for anything is a horrible idea. If you need to shave a spot anywhere, take a Huntmaster. I still don't advocate cutting them, but if you need to cut something, that's the "weakest link." Wood Elves is the glue that holds the whole deck together. The deck gets much worse without 3 Wood Elves.

@Cire_DK -- XdeckX is pretty much spot on as far as Rusalka goes. There's an important point to note here:

I don't think anyone will disagree that our deck runs off of synergy. The whole thing looks like an enormous pile, but it's so synergistic that works really well. That's because it's a Web. Nic Fit runs off of multiple tutor axes, and the whole deck revolves around them. The best Nic Fit decks run more than just Green Sun, but all of them share Green Sun. Let's dissect Rector a bit.

You have two axes: Rector, and Green Sun. Ideally, you want it so that each axis interacts favorably with the others, and you want a cross-fire coverage. So, let's look at vs Show and Tell, let's say. Rector can find Humility, and GSZ can find Empath, which in turn can put Angel of Serenity into your hand. Alternatively, GSZ can also find Harmonic Sliver. Humility is the strongest option here, so if you have a Rector and a GSZ, you probably GSZ for Rusalka to sac Rector -> Humility.

If you need a sac outlet, you can Rector for Recurring Nightmare, or GSZ for Rusalka.

Combo? Rector Nether Void or GSZ Ichneumon Druid.

Playing vs a fair deck and need a bomb? Nightmare loop, or Sigarda/Empath.

Need some card advantage? Phyrexian Arena and Thragtusk/Witness.

Removal? Fetters and Witness (or Sigarda).

Ramp? Carpet of Flowers and Explorer/Sakura-Tribe.

And so on. If thinking of it like a Web doesn't work for you, try thinking of it like a parallel drive engine. You have two gears (Rector and GSZ), and you want those two gears to do essentially the same thing (propel you forward), but at different rates. Sometimes Rector's bullets will be more powerful, sometimes GSZ will. Etc.

Now, for your board. What kind of meta are you expecting at Dutch nationals? They tend to play a lot of combo over there, right?

Ooze is falling the rest of the way out of my favor now that we have Deathrite Shaman. As XdeckX pointed out, you have to sink a ton of mana into Ooze to keep up, and Ooze leaves you more vulnerable to Reanimator, whereas Shaman comes down much quicker.

Especially considering Europe's fondness for combo, I would do anything you can get to your hands on a Nether Void for the event. If you just can't make it happen, run Curse of Exhaustion instead (4-mana 1-sided Rule of Law). It's nowhere near as good, but it's the best you'll be able to do.

Vraska is junk. I've tried her, and she's sadly unplayable.

You definitely want the Cranial Extraction to go along with the Memoricide. That is a pair -- I wouldn't just run one or the other. It's your best line of defense against combo -and- control, because it hits control's few wincons, and it strips away key cards from combo. I mean, if you get them under Nether Void, then that's awesome -- and then if you can work up enough mana to Cranial, you can take away their out (probably a bounce spell, or a wish) and just leave them hardlocked. It's also solid against Show and Tell. Those cards are universal -- Humility doesn't come in vs storm, and Nether Void doesn't come in vs non-Omniscience Show/Tell (only Omni varieties...and I guess Hypergenesis, for the 2 people that play that).

Mindcensors are junk. I'm experimenting with those slots currently. One of them I'm sure I want to test is Angel of Serenity, because that gives GSZ web/dual drive coverage against Show and Tell -> Emrakul, but is ALSO a huge bomb in any kind of grindy matchup / a Nic Fit mirror, which Angel of Despair can't do. The other slot has been changing something like 5 times a day, but they're both experimental.

Raking Canopy is good vs Miracles and Delver. Miracles will oftentimes bring in O-Ring/Sphere, or Disenchant...rarely both. The strategy is regardless the same -- you attack their deck with Extirpates and Cranial effects, while deploying permanents that they MUST solve before they can beat you. Deed, Raking Canopy, etc. They can't actually win with those cards in play. I like Canopy personally, but it depends on how much Miracles/Stoneblade you expect to see. It's good vs Delver, but Delver isn't a reason to board it.

Curse of Death's Hold is something that's fallen out of favor for me. It's too expensive for too little gain. If it was -2/-2, then I'd probably run it....but 5 mana for a blanket -1/-1 is steep. You can do better.

Thoughtseize is something I have mixed feelings about. I could see them in the 2x Mindcensor slot, At the same time, the one thing that the deck REALLY just straight up curls up and dies to is Sanctified combo -- any combo deck with Leyline of Sanctity. You can steal wins here and there with Rector finding some bullshit, but that is overwhelmingly a bad matchup. If the deck has an achilles heel, that's it. Thoughtseize does nothing to rectify that problem -- and in fact just makes it worse, because you have more dead cards in your deck. I would rather run more nontargeted ways of interacting instead of Thoughtseize.

From the little I know of the European meta in general (I'm thinking GP Amsterdam specifically here), I would suggest the following:

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Humility
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Raking Canopy
1 Nether Void/Curse of Exhaustion
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Angel of Serenity/Angel of Despair

[EpicLevelCommoner]

1. I'm unfamiliar with Maverick, but Delver flies over Moat anyway.

2. Of course plague is going to be bad if you play it before you deed like you can with Moat. In fact it's the opposite: you deed first then lay down the plague to keep them off their beats.

[Cire_dk]

@XdeckX Thanks for your input, very usefull advice. Sorry you cant make the championship'.

@Arianrhod
Thank you for your fantastic reply and analysis. The more I read about Nic Fit and play the deck, the more I am loving it.
Unfortunately I do not own a Ichmeun Druid or Curse of exhaustion but I might be able to get the last one before Sunday.
I will try to remember enough about my games to write a hopefully usefull report next week.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Scryb Ranger for mana accel? Seems very easy to take advantage of, and is far less susceptible to wasteland hate like Arbor Elf. Only problem is that it only works on your turn as mana accel (though you can save the Forest during any turn). Kinda competes with S-TE, but might be useful in very color-intensive lists (ya'know: the one's that run 3 colors and want two of each color with four mana open?).

[HoneyT]

Haven't been near a computer much lately, but here I am to share some thoughts!


Scryb Ranger for mana accel? Seems very easy to take advantage of, and is far less susceptible to wasteland hate like Arbor Elf. Only problem is that it only works on your turn as mana accel (though you can save the Forest during any turn). Kinda competes with S-TE, but might be useful in very color-intensive lists (ya'know: the one's that run 3 colors and want two of each color with four mana open?).

No. Just no. It doesn't even accelerate unless you don't have another land in hand. It sets you back land drops and we have zero creatures worth untapping anyway. It's good in Maverick because they can operate on few lands and have plenty of creatures worth untapping like Knight, Mom, Hierarch, and Fauna Shaman and wears equipment like a boss. It does nothing in this deck. Play StE, play Wood Elves, play Nature's Lore, play BoP, but for the love of God, don't play Scryb Ranger.

G/B is still really good by the way. I know some of you are moving away from it, but with a tuned list, it's still awesome. I've had no problems killing people with Grave Titan/Primeval Titan and not getting fancy about it.

On another note, I've been developing a Future Sight list as well. I'll post the list and some thoughts about it later when I get home.

[Vicar in a tutu]

G/B is still really good by the way. I know some of you are moving away from it, but with a tuned list, it's still awesome. I've had no problems killing people with Grave Titan/Primeval Titan and not getting fancy about it.
I'm going to a small local tournament tomorrow (between 8-16 people, but almost only tier decks). This is the deck I'm gonna bring:

G/B Nic Fit

5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Malestrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Sideboard

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Angel of Despair
1 Golgari Charm

Dryad Arbor:I used to play arbor. It was great when I had just cast a Therapy and either whiffed/hit and discovered that my opponent had two or more of the same card in hand. Then I could just use my fetchland, find the arbor and destroy his hand (this was really important against combo, not so much other decks). However, with Golgari Charm in the sideboard in addition to the lack of synergy with Deed (also a surprisingly number of times I draw arbor with my starting hand), I decided to cut it and added another forest instead. The addition of a playset of Abrupt Decay makes it very important that I consistantly hit Green/Black on turn two, and it sucks if my only green source is a dryad arbor with summoning sickness.

Deathrite Shaman:I use 1 as a target for Green Sun's Zenith. The card has proven strong in testing, helping against a wide variety of match-ups: Against burn, U/R Delver, Reanimator and Dredge. Funny story: Last tournament it saved me against Blood Moon. I was playing against Imperial Painter and was locked out of black mana. I drew into a Green Sun's Zenith, tutored for a shaman and next round exiled a fetchland in my yard for black mana, cast Pernicious Deed and destroyed the blood moon as well as a grindstone and a Magus of the Moon (unfortunately also my shaman, but c'est la vie).

Abrupt Decay:Very useful card. Great against RUG Delver, counterbalance. There is always something for it to hit, in almost every matchup. (Although I board it out every now and again, for example against Hive Mind). Many people play three instead of the full set, but I love this card to death and I'm almost never sad when I draw it.

Angel of Despair:Combo can be tricky. There is quite a bit Show and Tell in my local meta. Mostly in the form of Hive Mind and Omnitell. Angel of Despair kicks ass when it hits. However, it might be difficult running such a narrow hate card instead of a card that has broader applications against combo in general (more pointed discard, memoricide-effects, etc.). This is a meta-call.

Golgari Charm:Just testing this. It's useful against Maverick, Death & Taxes, Belcher (to kill goblin tokens), Affinity, Elves and Enchantress a way to kill my own Explorers. The regeneration effect is less useful, but it can still come up from time to time.

[Oiolosse]

@Vicar: I'm just getting into Nic Fit and am curious how your list plays out. I have been testing RectorFit which is very tool box oriented. This has made it fruitless to goldfish. I still have just to see how certain hands unfold after 2-5 turns our so. But your list looks more like traditional mid-range control, which I am far more used to.

I will post questions and comments after more testing this weekend. I can already say that I need that stupid Rasulka. Y'all were right, being able to GSZ for a Sac outlet has been so important. You can keep so many more hands. Anyway, I won't blow my load, I'll post all of my newbie insights later.

[HoneyT]

@Vicar

Re: Golgari Charm. I'm playing it in my G/B board as well. Don't forget it blows up Sylvan Libraries, Humilities, Moats, and Counterbalances too.

[Ryno]

Hey guys, new to The Source here, I've been lurking here for a while and have been wanting to make a move into Legacy. I love the colors and style of Nic Fit and it seems relatively inexpensive compared to other Legacy decks.

I recently got a fairly good deal on 3 Rectors so I am locking myself into that build.

Based on Arianrhod's WIP Primer (Thanks a lot, Arianrhod, very well done primer so far):


4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Wood Elves
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Moat

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Sensei's Divining Top

1x Swords to Plowshares

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Aven Mindscensor
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide


I have been making changes to this list based on budget reasons and here is what I have so far.

Swapping duals for shocks
Duals are simply too expensive for me right now.

-3 Windswept Heaths, +1 Verdant Catacombs, +2 Marsh Flats:
I read in earlier posts that it is very important for fetches to fetch basic forests but are the 3x Windswept Heaths worth the extra $90?

-1 Vindicate, +1 Maelstrom Pulse:
Not too concerned about this.

-1 Thragtusk, +1 Kitchen Finks:
I understand Thragtusk is much better than Finks, but with 'Tusk being in standard I think he is overpriced at the moment. Finks should do fine for the time being.

-1 Moat, +1 Island Sanctuary:
This is the biggest concern for me, Island Sanctuary has a similar effect to Moat but doesn't affect my creatures, opening up some finishers that are not normally considered for a Moat build, skipping the draw step, however, is a very large drawback. I'm very certain running Island Sanctuary probably isn't worth it at all, but I have always like the card since I started playing Magic ~10 years ago (One of the older players at the time had a sick Sleeper Agent/Island Sanctuary/Peacekeeper deck, probably the first control deck I have ever played against).

-1 Sigarda, +1 Thrun:
Without Moat Thrun seems much better, cheaper too.

The only issue in the sideboard is Chains of Mephistopheles. It seems like a very unique card. I'll likely have to just bite the bullet on that one eventually.

I have been trying to find other alternatives to Baneslayer and Kokusho (Kokusho probably isn't replaceable) but there are so many options. In his primer, Arianrhod explained the purpose each of the finishers but without Moat I feel the line of thought in regards to finishers changes completely.

I would just like to hear your guys' opinions on my changes, most specifically my Moat problem. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks so much for all the work you guys have done already.

[Nihilis]

@Ryno: Regarding your Moat problem, have you considered running either Teferi's Moat or Dueling Grounds as cheap alternatives? Island Sanctuary really doesn't seem like the path you want to take (grounding yourself without cards until the opposing player finds an answer and swarms you). It also doesn't do anything against fish, a matchup where Moat usually shines.

With Teferi's Moat you no longer have the problem of grounding your own non-flyers, so you can use Thrun. It does the same as Moat versus tribal, seeing as those decks are mostly mono-colored, though I'm not sure how it fares against other decks in comparison to the more pricey original.

Dueling Grounds might also fit well in Nic Fit seeing as we usually have the biggest non-Eldrazi creatures in Legacy, although it might need a more flying or trampeling approach so that your threat doesn't get chumpblocked.

I have no idea how well these cards will eventually fair in the deck, but to me they seem like better alternatives to Moat than Island Sanctuary will ever be.

[mini1337s]

Hey guys, new to The Source here, I've been lurking here for a while and have been wanting to make a move into Legacy. I love the colors and style of Nic Fit and it seems relatively inexpensive compared to other Legacy decks.

I recently got a fairly good deal on 3 Rectors so I am locking myself into that build.

Based on Arianrhod's WIP Primer (Thanks a lot, Arianrhod, very well done primer so far):

I have been making changes to this list based on budget reasons and here is what I have so far.

Swapping duals for shocks
Duals are simply too expensive for me right now.

-3 Windswept Heaths, +1 Verdant Catacombs, +2 Marsh Flats:
I read in earlier posts that it is very important for fetches to fetch basic forests but are the 3x Windswept Heaths worth the extra $90?

-1 Vindicate, +1 Maelstrom Pulse:
Not too concerned about this.

-1 Thragtusk, +1 Kitchen Finks:
I understand Thragtusk is much better than Finks, but with 'Tusk being in standard I think he is overpriced at the moment. Finks should do fine for the time being.

-1 Moat, +1 Island Sanctuary:
This is the biggest concern for me, Island Sanctuary has a similar effect to Moat but doesn't affect my creatures, opening up some finishers that are not normally considered for a Moat build, skipping the draw step, however, is a very large drawback. I'm very certain running Island Sanctuary probably isn't worth it at all, but I have always like the card since I started playing Magic ~10 years ago (One of the older players at the time had a sick Sleeper Agent/Island Sanctuary/Peacekeeper deck, probably the first control deck I have ever played against).

-1 Sigarda, +1 Thrun:
Without Moat Thrun seems much better, cheaper too.

The only issue in the sideboard is Chains of Mephistopheles. It seems like a very unique card. I'll likely have to just bite the bullet on that one eventually.

I have been trying to find other alternatives to Baneslayer and Kokusho (Kokusho probably isn't replaceable) but there are so many options. In his primer, Arianrhod explained the purpose each of the finishers but without Moat I feel the line of thought in regards to finishers changes completely.

I would just like to hear your guys' opinions on my changes, most specifically my Moat problem. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks so much for all the work you guys have done already.
Duals vs Shocks is... well duals versus shocks. I might suggest buying 1 of each dual, and playing shocks/basics (this deck loves basics) for the others. There are going to be games where you need to need the flexibility a dual offers, but your opponent insists on Lava Spiking you to death. It really does make a difference versus aggro matchups, where that 2 life or a potential "time walk" effect is going to be the difference between winning or losing. If you look around, MOTL is a good resource, you should be able to get an SP Bayou, Savannah, and Scrubland for about $170-180.

Heaths matter if you are running more basics, but honestly, you shouldn't have too much trouble. Just up your Zendikar fetches

Vindicate vs Maelstrom pulse, shouldn't be too much difference. The main reason, in my mind, for the split is to dodge Extirpate effects.

Thragtusk vs Finks, absolutely needs to be Thragtusk. Finks will not replace Thragtusk. If you spend extra money on anything, do it on this. Thragtusk is such an unbelievable house, a nessecity if you do need shocks, and aggro decks have a rough time dealing with the extra body. That Neanderthal with the Lava Spikes? Yeah, he can't deal with Thragtusk.

Moat vs Island Sanctuary, I agree with Nihilis. I would go towards dueling grounds in your case. Save up for that Moat though, it does win games on it's own (oh hello Goblins... you lose).

Sigarda vs Thrun, if you are cutting the moat, you need to keep the Sigarda. You need a solid fatty and something that doesn't die to spot removal (especially with Dueling Grounds). The same with Baneslayers and Kokushkos, if you need to stay on a budget, they are going to do a lot more work for your deck.

Chains vs ???, Chains is... meh. If you go with it and are on a budget, you should be able to find a MP-SP Italian one in the $35-40 range. Honestly, Chains isn't going to win you games, from my experience (with U/B Merfolk) I like Nether Void, in which case a beater Italian one is around $65.

So, in my mind, you should buy 1x Bayou, 1x Scrubland, 1x Savannah, 1x Thragtusk, and 1x Sigarda, which should put you out $200-220ish if you use sites like MOTL. You might be able to find people locally willing to sell for less than retail but more than a store buylist, so talk to your local players.
If you can't get the duals now right now, you absolutely need Baneslayer, Kokusko, Sigarda and Thragtusk. If you run Dueling Grounds, keep with the 5/5s, and snag a Sigarda too. The $30-35 you spend on Thragtusk and Sigarda will be well worth it.


@ Arianrhod: I wonder if it would be worth creating a budget list, trimming some duals and the Moat? I wonder if it's a Rector version or a G/B version?

[Ayotte]

@ Arianrhod: I wonder if it would be worth creating a budget list, trimming some duals and the Moat? I wonder if it's a Rector version or a G/B version?

One of the reasons I chose this deck besides how fun it is is that bayous are relatively cheap and they're all you need if you go straight G/B. I maybe spent around $350 on the entire deck.

[TheArchitect]

Not having a moat and using dueling grounds till your next paycheck is one thing, but shocklands, no sigarda and finks>thrag are pretty dramatic alterations to the deck...

We do have a Budget Discussion Section (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?56-Cavius-Casual-and-Budget-Forum).

If you really want a cheap version of the deck, you definitely want to go GB. You can build a totally optimized list for like ~500-350$ if you use ebay and stuff. An optimized rector list isnt going to get any cheaper than 1200-1500$.

[kabards]

To all those who also plays with Punishing Nic-fit i already revise my current deck list.

Punishing Nic-Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grave Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Taiga
1 Badlands

Sideboard:

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Extirpate
1 Red Elemental Blast

----------

feel free to comment :cool:

[Viridia]

My friend borrowed my recent 4-color list and took it to the Dutch Championship trial and played it to the Finals & get byes with it :D

Decklist:

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

15 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer


23 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Future Sight
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
1 Omniscience
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Memoricide
1 Nether Void
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize


Matchups:
Wins: PSI - UWb Landstill - Stoneblade - (in Semi's) Infect
Draws: Infect - BUG Landstill
Losses: (in Finals) Stoneblade

If anyone has specific questions, please ask :)

[Zirath]

My friend borrowed my recent 4-color list and took it to the Dutch Championship trial and played it to the Finals & get byes with it :D

Decklist:

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

15 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer


23 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Future Sight
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
1 Omniscience
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Memoricide
1 Nether Void
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize


Matchups:
Wins: PSI - UWb Landstill - Stoneblade - (in Semi's) Infect
Draws: Infect - BUG Landstill
Losses: (in Finals) Stoneblade

If anyone has specific questions, please ask :)

Shouldn't there be a tutor for Emrakul like Empath in there?

[BlackMetalSheep]

Shouldn't there be a tutor for Emrakul like Empath in there?

Diabolic Intent can tutor Emrakul too!! ;)

[Zirath]

Diabolic Intent can tutor Emrakul too!! ;)

Empath is a significantly stronger and more reliable tutor imo. Especially off Omniscience since you don't need a guy.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How significant of a difference is there between CMC 3 and CMC 4 for this archetype? I'd like to include a non-conditional tutor effect in the Future Fit list, but Grim Tutor's 3 life loss really looks terrible, and I'm fairly creature light to run Diabolic Intent. That leaves Diabolic Tutor

[Viridia]

Shouldn't there be a tutor for Emrakul like Empath in there?


Most general way to "go off" is saccing a Rector to Intent, getting both Omniscience and Emrakul, immediatly casting it.
Both of us never had any problems in finding the Emrakul, because you play 3 Tops, 4 Brainstorms and a Future Sight for speed-digging.

[Zirath]

Most general way to "go off" is saccing a Rector to Intent, getting both Omniscience and Emrakul, immediatly casting it.
Both of us never had any problems in finding the Emrakul, because you play 3 Tops, 4 Brainstorms and a Future Sight for speed-digging.

Right. Forgot about that. Ignore me.

The extra mana is probably too much since the card does not actually have a physical impact and Grim Tutor is definitely easier to chain with another card.

[Jokemon]

Some great input there Arianrhod.

The idea about Angel or Serenety was interesting. I will test her out for sure for the tournament. Also STE is a good suggestion along with Deathrite Shaman (Dredge you can handle with SB)

[Cire_dk]

Finished playing the Dutch Legacy championship. 118 players

Result 1-3-3

First of all I would like to give my respect to anyone who can write a proper match report. Because the matches are so long I tend to forget what was played at what point. I also do not have time to write things down because of time restrictions. Others seem to remember every play. Is it my memory or are there ways to report and remember this properly?

As you understand this report will be very short but hopefully it has some use to somebody out there. :frown:

Round 1 Infect:
Game 1:

A very long first game where his plaque stingers get me 8 infect. I cast Pulse and explorer and rector grind him down untill thragtusk provides the last 5 points for the win.
Game 2:
Out: Empath, Yosei, Sun Titan
In: Humility, Raking Canopy, Memerocide

I have to mull to 4 cards because my hands contain no lands. He plays Plaque stinger, gets 2 in play with Jitte and finishes me very quickly

Game 3: We run out of time.
Draw 1-1
0-0-1

Round 2 Stoneblade:

Game 1 :
I can't get anything going and most things are being countered. At one point he drops batterskull to attack for the win, when I point out he did not attach a germ token so Batterskull cannot attack!:tongue: He was not happy but managed to win the game the next turn anyway.

SB? In harmonic sliver and 2 carpet of flowers, out 2 explorers and ?

Game 2 :
A lot like game 1. I never managed to get a board position and loose.
0-2
0-1-1

Round 3 MUD/cloudpost :
Game 1 and 2 I did not manage any impact. His mana acceleration was very fast and being able to cast lodestone golem early did me no favours. Together with gaining life from glimmerpost it was impossible to win.
A humility in game 2 helped only for a short while
0-2
0-2-1

Round 4 BUG Control playing standstill :
Again not a good match up. He has to many counters and I am unable to keep my threats on the board for long enough.
0-3-1

Round 5 Countertop Miracles:
Game 1:
In short, he manages to entreat for the kill.

SB in 3 x carpet, 1 x raking canopy, 1 x cranial extraction , 1 x memerocide, Out; 4x explorer, 1 x moat, ?

Game 2:
I manage to drop an early deed and Faiths Fetters and Sigarda keep Jace from doing anything silly. Sigarda for the win. Memorocide for his terminus did help quite a bit :smile:

Game 3: No time anymore
1-1
0-3-2

Round 6 Dredge:
I always had difficulties understanding this deck and because of that I lost most of the time.
This time however I managed to win game 1 because I was lucky and moat proved very usefull, SB out empath, yosei, sun titan, In Extirpate , Deathrite shaman Game 2 he does what dredge does.
Game 3 seems over when he casts Griselbrand but I topdeck Baneslayer. We go into extra time and draw.
1-1
0-3-3

Round 7 Countertop miracles:
It is obvious this player is not very familiar with the deck and does not play it very well. It is a long and grindy game where an early deed, Baneslayer and Sigarda seal de deal. With only a few minutes left and a long day behind us we decise not to start a second game and I finally have a win.
1-0
1-3-3

Afterthoughts:

I wondered several times during the day if scapewish would have been better?
On the other hand; Moat and Sigarda where fantastic.
Recurring nightmare does not seem to get me out of trouble much and I wonder if the empoth Yosei , Titan slot cannot be used better?

I had a good time and I am very excited about the options this deck offers. It is difficult but very rewarding so I will continue to practice and hope to do better at the Belgian Legacy Cup

[Ayotte]

Viridia, that list is sweet. I just played it a couple times on Cockatrice and it looks like a lot of fun. It seemed like it took a lot of work to really do anything though, since there isnt the option to just put them on a clock like there is with G/B, which I usually play. How is the matchup against combo?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Eternal Witness
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

1 Angel of Despair
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Magus of the Future
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Carpet of Flowers
7 Mudhole

[kabards]

by the way here is my BGW Nic-Fit

BGW Nic-Fit

Creatures : 14

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Academy Rector
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness

Spells : 24

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Void
1 Faith Fetters
1 Diabolic Intent

Lands: 22

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas

Sideboard : 15

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Cranial Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Humility
1 Qasali Pridemage

[Viridia]

Viridia, that list is sweet. I just played it a couple times on Cockatrice and it looks like a lot of fun. It seemed like it took a lot of work to really do anything though, since there isnt the option to just put them on a clock like there is with G/B, which I usually play. How is the matchup against combo?

The Matchup against combo is about the same as with the normal Rector lists i think.
You board in some discard and extirpate effects and try to get Nether Void online asap. The added "Combo Emrakul kill" does help abit tho.

And yes, it does a whole lot of nothing/controlling everything untill you find Emrakul/Omniscience :P

[Cire_dk]

Since I see all these list appearing again I have a question. Which Nic Fit Version puts down the quickest clock. I am aware we play a control deck but when I read tournament reports I often note a lot of player having draws. (the judge called me king of draws the last tournament and he knew for whom to look if not all results where handed in yet :tongue: )
Is there a way to improve this. Is punishing Nic Fit faster for example, or straight GB? Your thoughts please.

[Viridia]

I suppose ScapeWish doesn't go in time too often, due to the nature of a 1 card combo?

[raindrainxi]

Hello Nic-Fitters ( Nicer-Fits? Nic-Fittees?)

Well, anyway, I am one of the would-be proponents of this deck, thanks especially to Arrianhod's yet-to-be finished primer which was very helpful. I playtested a straight up GB version of this deck and liked the style very much, and non-blue control is awesome, as someone upthread said.

Suffice to say, I like the GB list well enough but due to the limited playtest matches haven't seen much of its weaknesses yet.

@kabards do you think a GB list would be competitive enough in our meta, or is R / W splash necessary? I quite like the PuNic-Fit variety and not too convinced with Rector->Fetters on paper, although a lot of you have stated otherwise.

Thanks again on the very informative thread.

[fireiced]

I suppose ScapeWish doesn't go in time too often, due to the nature of a 1 card combo?

You be surprised how long are games with UW miracles are when both have no board presence [usually after I nab their win cons with slaughter games and extirpate]



First of all I would like to give my respect to anyone who can write a proper match report. Because the matches are so long I tend to forget what was played at what point. I also do not have time to write things down because of time restrictions. Others seem to remember every play. Is it my memory or are there ways to report and remember this properly?



I have a notepad where I write stuff down, I usually get to write down their hands on it usually due to cabal therapy (:

[kabards]

Since I see all these list appearing again I have a question. Which Nic Fit Version puts down the quickest clock. I am aware we play a control deck but when I read tournament reports I often note a lot of player having draws. (the judge called me king of draws the last tournament and he knew for whom to look if not all results where handed in yet :tongue: )
Is there a way to improve this. Is punishing Nic Fit faster for example, or straight GB? Your thoughts please.

Punishing Nic-Fit is way better than BUG / BGW / BG nic-fit deck in my opinion vs Blue Variant Decks because you have the access to Red through Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast, maybe it's the right sideboard to put in and to put out is also the problem dealing with other decks, but surely in my experience my bad match up was MUD / Combo - The Epic Storm / ANT / Belcher / OmniTel / SneakyShow and other non-pure blue combo decks. Later i will put what im boarding in and im boarding out when im using my Punishing Nic-Fit

[vilnico]

Hi guys,

Remember my BGw list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)/page145) for Omniscience ?
I had this week end a silly event with 20 minutes round, have to play 3 games at most, winning 3 points per win (really meaning, NOT best of 3)
No need to say no control was expected here.

So I tweeked a bit the list to make it more all-in
Briefly removed the Token gameplan to get 4 Gitaxian Probes, and switched the Scroll Rack for a 3rd Top.
Anyway here is the list


MAIN DECK 61

3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath

1 Altar's Reap
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Circle of Protection: Red

1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
2 Eladamri's Call
1 Pattern of Rebirth

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Gitaxian Probe

1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Omniscience


15 SIDEBOARD

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extract
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nether Void
1 Thoughtseize


Quick report (7 rounds, no Top) ended 6-1
R1 vs Soldiers (not a good list). Win 2-0, but I was forced to go through Deed each time before going on Combo.
R2 vs no memories, just I won 2-0 ^^
R3 vs TES Lost 1-2. He blows me up Turn 2 on game 1 as I can't find a Cabal Therapy after 3 Gitaxian Probe to rape his 2 LED. Game 2 sees Intent into Gaddock, then quick combo. Game 3 I lose having Discard, Nether Void, Mindbreak Trap on starting 7. But he had Ponder and 2 Duresses. I discarded a Ponder over 1 Duress. I guess I should have not ^^
R3 vs Soldiers (strong list ^^). Win 1-0. Got really a hard time game 1, my opponents drops me to 1, then I finally Topdeck Rector to blow him up with combo + Deed (as his board was more than 6).
R4 vs Elves (aggro). Win 2-0. Deed then combo 2 times
R5 vs Won 2-0, no other memories ^^
R6 vs Pro BANT. Win 2-1. Lost Game 1 because I kept Swamp Top and 5 other spells ^^. G2 and G3 were pretty smooth and straigthforward for me.
R7 vs Rea. Epic game 1. He careful study with dropping Elesh Norn. He doesn't reanimate directly, which would have been lots of fun xD. He keeps looking for another target and discards me a lot, while I set up a Deed for the Animate Dead I left him. He finally Animate Elesh Norn as he finds nothing else. Beats me up for some turn. Discards a Griselbrand, and animates him. Deed to clear the 2 of them, and beat him up with 2 Rectors, Dryad Arbor and Explorer FTW xD
He lose game 2 on Surgical Griselbrand, then me going combo.

Some thoughts on the list
CoP:Red because I expected some Burn and the list is complete Bye for it, which I did not play against in the end :@
Altar's Reap: cast it only once, not really fantastic.
3rd Top over Scroll Rack: with the Pattern of Rebirth as backup, it went quite well. I did PoR 2 or 3 times, instead of the regular Rector-Omniscience-Emrakul chain. And activating Top is soooo sexy. Whereas Scroll Rack is interesting, but you would not activate it every turn. And you would just vomit on it early game. I think I will keep the 3rd top for later.
Gitaxian Probe: not so fantastic... I mean it does diminish the variance of the list. But... I felt like having other discards would have been good as well.
vs Combo: even with sideboard, it is hell to win. Your only way through is to buy time with Gaddock, then somehow go combo or board Nether Void.

I am quite happy with the list so far, this tournament showed me its consistency.
Have another local tournament this WE, and will return with the original list, but maybe replacing the Scroll Rack by the 3rd Top.

But soon, I will play BGw with Future Sight !! (need to find one first though ^^)

[Arianrhod]

I'm going to try to sift back through the last couple of pages and give some answers to any questions that have been asked....expect that either this afternoon or tomorrow morning.

For now, a quick summary of GP:Philly. I got a pretty mediocre sealed pool, had 1 bye. So I was like, k, I'll play till x-2. X-2 would be good for day 2, but depending on when I picked up that 2nd loss, I didn't really want to play another however many rounds. My pool had double Cackler, a Slitherhead, and a Civic Saber, so I immediately wanted to go aggro. I also had a Lox. Smiter, 2 Centaur Healers, and a bunch of other decent selesnya stuff, but I didn't have the pool to really be able to build a wedge and stick to it. So I built 4-color aggro and YOLO'd -really- hard. I had 2 shocks and like 4 gates, so my mana was usually fine. It worked better than I thought it was going to. Also, t1 Cackler into t2 Saber+equip is -stupid-. Anyway, I won my first two rounds after the bye, to go 3-0....then lost two in a row. At 3-2, with 4 more rounds to be played, I decided that I didn't feel like trying to win out with my subpar pool, so I just dropped and did trade-ins.

I emerged with a Jap foil Deed and a German foil Top as my big acquisitions for my Nic Fit(s). I also found a German foil Zendikar forest, although it wasn't the art that I wanted. I think that they're hard enough to find that I'm just going to try to pick them up as I see them, and then I can work on getting the specific arts to match later in the process. I rounded out my credit by picking up a bunch of staples for other things, a pair of new Monster binders (my old ones are dying =| ) and a foil Stoneforge and my 3rd foil Masques Brainstorm. One more! Unfortunately, my biggest target acquisition (the last two remaining Cabal Therapies) were nowhere to be found. Overall I was actually pretty disappointed with the selection of pimp that the dealers had with them. Boston was soooooo much better in that regard.

So, Sunday I did a win-a-box. I was planning on doing more than one, but the impending doom of Hurricane Sandy made me want to get out a lot earlier than I would have ordinarily. I selected Rector as my weapon of choice (win-a-boxes are usually unfair metas), and sat down to jam some legacy.

My first opponent is one Stu Somers -- a name that some might recognize. Considering that he has some notoriety as a player (though more as a dealer/financial writer), I guess that he is a Brainstorm player, because all players who are "names" tend to play Brainstorm. So, I call Brainstorm on a blind t1 Therapy on the play, and hit. He's on UW Stoneblade. Unfortunately for me, his hand has like literal everything he could ever want. I don't have my notes with me, but I think it was like....Counterspell, Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Spell Pierce, Tundra, Fetch. Something like that. I tried to do a few things, but the strength of his hand was too much for me, and we were on to g2. I brought in the Carpets, the Sliver, and the Choke that I've been testing.

T1 Carpet on the play, woohoo. He doesn't seem to give Carpet quite the respect it deserves as a card, and proceeds to give a half-assed attempt at playing around it with fetchlands, but he isn't overly cautious about it. At some point he Cliques me, and see Rector, Choke, Zenith, and something else largely irrelevant. He agonizes for a few, and ships Choke. I rip a land off the replacement draw. I get my Carpet mana (2 green), play land, Zenith for Rusalka, play Rector, sac Rector to Rusalka, and slam Choke into play.

I love that fucking Rusalka.

A turn or two later I Vindicate his Clique, grab Sigarda while he hits a Disenchant for Choke, then drop Baneslayer. The angels get there.

G3 he drops a fetch and passes. I drop Carpet. He shrugs, plays another fetch, and cracks them (getting Plains, Scrubland this time, btw) for a Stoneforge to get Batterskull. I run out the Therapy in my hand, which he Forces (pitching Force). I drop Witness, getting back my Therapy. He looks confused, but vials in his Batterskull anyway. He headbutts me for 4, and ships it back. I Vindicate his Batterskull, forcing him to bounce it -- and then unload the Therapy that I had Witnessed. He had his Vindicate in his hand, so I flashbacked Therapy to take it, leaving him with nothing but lands. He pokes me with his Stoneforge, while I start dropping angels. The game ends shortly thereafter. Unfortunately he flooded out this game, which I felt bad about. My hand was strong enough, though, that I wasn't overly concerned even if he had drawn business.

So, the next round I'm playing vs one of my locals (we double-queue when we do win-a-boxes....two of us go into one, and then we split whatever we get). He's also on U/W Stoneblade, but his build incorporates Resto Angel and Mishra's Factories. He also runs more planeswalkers....2 Jace and 2 Elspeth. I have mana problems g1, and we go to g2 fairly quickly. He plays loose g2, but I had a strong hand and was firmly in control regardless. G3 was a slugfest. He established a ridiculous board of Elspeth, Resto Angel, Clique, 3 soldiers, and a Sword of Feast/Famine. I end up killing his Elspeth with Sigarda, then saccing her to Diabolic Intent up a Deed and blow up the world. I'm at 5, with no cards in hand. He has one card in hand, and we both have a pile of mana. To make the play happen, I had to shuffle away my Top, too. He draws, apologizes, and plays his 2nd Elspeth. I draw a Plains, scowl, and pass the turn. He puts me to 1, and ships it back. I draw a Top. I play it, and spin it to draw a Green Sun. I Zenith for Witness to get back Sun Titan, sac Witness for 2 mana to Tower, then cast Sun Titan, bringing back Deed for 0 mana open (but I can crack it for 0, killing his token if he jumps....or both of them if he makes another one, which lets Sun Titan kill Elspeth). He uses his other card EoT: a Restoration Angel, which I can't block or soak a hit from. Awkward.

I could have just grabbed Deed with Witness, which would have allowed me to have the mana to crack Deed at 4 to kill the angel, but then Elspeth would still be there, and I would have been completely reliant on the top of my deck to kill her/re-establish a board. I think that I made the correct line of plays there, but his luck just blew me out. If not for that Elspeth topdeck, I would have been perfectly fine. Oh well.

He splits the box with his opponent (who would have been playing Sea Stompy, btw..... o_O ), and gives me my 9 packs. I'm fairly tilted and I have a pounding headache thanks to the approaching storm (I'm kind of a human barometer, and rapid pressure changes cause me headaches....which is something that my mom had as well, but I've never heard of anyone outside of us having that. kind of our "super power" I guess). But yeah. I crack my packs on-site, because I want to buy something else while I'm there, rather than re-establish a trade binder later. I crack a Steam Vents, a Jace, a Loltroll, and some junk...whereas my friend cracked all junk. Guess that's my revenge for the Elspeth. I shop around the remaining dealers, as a lot of them had left early due to the hurricane as well, and found something sexy. I traded in all that crap, and $26 of cash for my 2nd foil German Pernicious Deed. Unfortunately it's a bit clouded, as old foils tend to get, but it's whatever. I can trade it up for a better condition one later if it ends up bothering me (which it probably will).

Oh, and big props to Starcity for once. They let me trade two of my old Judge foil Wastelands and $20 for two old Judge foil Wastelands. The catch? My two had foil lines, and their two didn't. That means I have my set of non-foil-lined old-border foil Wastelands completed at long last. That may be relevant information for you guys, if you also have things with foil lines that you would rather didn't.

One final closing note: thanks in part to modern, the price of Misty Rainforests and Scalding Tarns has jumped to $30-35 now for non-foils. If you guys have intentions of building a blue version of Nic Fit in the future, I would recommend you start hunting your Mistys now, before the price jump is widely known. Your local dealers probably don't know about it yet, since I think it just happened this weekend.

[Cire_dk]

@kabards punishing Nic Fit
How succesfull has this deck been for you?
Would dreadbore not be a good alternative to abrubt decay 2/1 split? I know it can be countered but Planeswalkers are a real pain for Nic fit?
Would Rakdos return be a good card. However I would not know what to cut from the list :frown:

Otherwise it looks interesting and I will test it out.

[kabards]

Hello Nic-Fitters ( Nicer-Fits? Nic-Fittees?)

Well, anyway, I am one of the would-be proponents of this deck, thanks especially to Arrianhod's yet-to-be finished primer which was very helpful. I playtested a straight up GB version of this deck and liked the style very much, and non-blue control is awesome, as someone upthread said.

Suffice to say, I like the GB list well enough but due to the limited playtest matches haven't seen much of its weaknesses yet.

@kabards do you think a GB list would be competitive enough in our meta, or is R / W splash necessary? I quite like the PuNic-Fit variety and not too convinced with Rector->Fetters on paper, although a lot of you have stated otherwise.

Thanks again on the very informative thread.

Either splash R or W is better on our meta, but if our meta shift to Blue Based Decks splash red is much better because of having an access to Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast

Punishing Nic-Fit good match ups :
Merfolk
UW Stoneblade / Miracle
Dredge
Maverick
UR Delver
RUG Delver
High Tide
Affinity

50/50 Match up:
Belcher
Reanimator

Bad Match up:

MUD
TES / ANT Variants
Sneaky Show
OmniTel

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

Any suggestions? And be honest. No back-sass from me this time ^_^.

[kabards]

@kabards punishing Nic Fit
How succesfull has this deck been for you?
Would dreadbore not be a good alternative to abrubt decay 2/1 split? I know it can be countered but Planeswalkers are a real pain for Nic fit?
Would Rakdos return be a good card. However I would not know what to cut from the list :frown:

Otherwise it looks interesting and I will test it out.

The main planeswalker that is hard to deal with for me is Jace, the Mind Sculptor but having an access to Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast you can easily deal with it. And about the other planeswalker you can wreck it up by using your Maelstorm Pulse. My only main problem using this deck is when i was being paired to some Combo or MUD Deck that is difficult to deal, thats why my sideboard is generally focused against MUD / Combo decks.
If your place was invaded by RUG / Maverick / UW Miracles/Stoneblade deck, Punishing Nic-fit has a good match up against those deck.

[Greenpoe]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

Any suggestions? And be honest. No back-sass from me this time ^_^.

The list looks solid, but is Starving Rusalka necessary in non-white (non-Rector) builds of Nic Fit? Wouldn't you rather just have another Diabolic Intent? I'm guessing Liliana/Abrupt Decay cover the Baleful Strix slot, but no Coiling Oracle either? Coiling Oracle is really good with Brainstorm/Top/Jace/Therapy/Intent and it's another early blocker to protect your Walkers. Consider having a Strix or Shriekmaw in the SB, to "wish for removal" when you need it, and they can block (protect walkers) too. Shriekmaw could go over the Karakas slot possibly as an answer to Emrakul, at least. But most importantly, only 2 Top? Top is the glue that holds this deck together and I can't imagine playing with fewer than 3. You might even say that Top is more important than Brainstorm, not a slot that gets cut just because you have blue, IMO. It's the card that chains together your good cards and helps you move past lands and Explorers when you don't need them. Got an extra Top (on the field or in hand)? Shuffle it away, having multiples is no big deal!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Greenpoe: Thanks for the feedback ^_^ a few words though (promise it ain't back-sass)

1. Starved Rusalka is definitely a potential flex slot, but it's there for the GSZenithable Sac Outlet right now.
2. Coiling Oracle . . . It wouldn't be so bad if I could have a Future up and running when I need them.
1+2. I'll test Scavenging Ooze + Coiling Oracle in place of Deathrite Shaman + Starved Rusalka and see how that works out. Definitely want to keep some sort of grave-hate in the main though.
3. Karakas is pretty much there for the reanimator and dredge matchups in case they get one of their big bombs out before a bojuka bog hits: Angel of Despair would be for the 12Post and OmniTell matchups (in 12Post, she would come in against SnT'd Prime Time to blow up a Cloud Post or Cloud Vesuva; in OT, she can blow up Omniscience, Emrakul, AND Griselbrand). I was actually considering Fleshbag Marauder though for a better anti-legendary factor (including Proggy, Iona on non-black, all Eldrazi including Ulamog, etc.)
4. What would you cut for the third top?

EDIT: 1+3: Wow! It just dawned on me that by using Fleshbag, I'd have a wishable sac-outlet for Vet. I don't even need Rusalka!

[Greenpoe]

I think you could cut the 2nd Eternal Witness. E-witness is kind of a durdly card, and blue-Fit already has tons of card selection/card advantage cards for this type of role. I suppose you could potentially do something something like cut a Decay or Pulse for a SB Maze of Ith as well, but I'd just cut Witness. I totally agree that either Deathrite Shaman or Scavenging Ooze deserves someplace in the 75 of Blue Fit. The nice thing is about this kind of utility creature is, if he's in the MD and you board him out, you can still Wish for him should you need it, and if he's in the SB you can wish for him G1 if you need it and GSZ for him G2/3 when you board him in.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Future Sight-Fit should naturally have a really strong late game (as its been said before, once you drop Future Sight, if you are at all stabilized, it'll win the game for you), so I'd consider dropping the Primeval Titan for a 2nd Thragtusk - IMO, Blue Nic Fit's main problem is just actually surviving until the mid/late game. I haven't had as much time to test lately, but I definitely like the idea of running Jace/Liliana in a Future Sight list although I've heard mixed opinions about actually testing them, but Jace on an empty board can win the game by himself and Liliana on an empty board is a nightmare for creature-based decks and a major pain for control decks.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Jace + Liliana is truly devastating, as they synchronize well with each other.

L+1 into J+0 really keeps the cards coming for and the cards stopped for them.
J+2 into L-2, followed by double L+1 into J-1 can keep a stabilized board cleared.
And as for their bombs . . . well, let's just say they can't do much after JMS Bombs an empty hand.

[Cire_dk]

@kabards

I have done some testing with punishing nic fit yesterday with your list. It is great fun to play it.
I tested against Nic Fit omnisciensce, Maverick and Miracle control.

Although I cannot call it proper indepth testing I do have some thoughts:
Ooze can be good but I felt a Third huntmaster would have far more impact and doesn't die to deed
In several games I was happy to have Dreadbore instead of Decay. ( I ran a 2/1 split) Especially preboard it gives an extra option against the dreaded plainswalkers
Would it be possible to put Nethervoid in the board together with a Diabolic intent. After SB this means you have 2 intent + nethervoid. This might give you some outs against storm decks that seem to be appearing in our local meta game. It is probably not consistent enough to warrant space in the SB?

Otherwise the games ran well and I am going to test the deck a bit more and see if I can come up with any other suggestions.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@kabards

I have done some testing with punishing nic fit yesterday with your list. It is great fun to play it.
I tested against Nic Fit omnisciensce, Maverick and Miracle control.

Although I cannot call it proper indepth testing I do have some thoughts:
Ooze can be good but I felt a Third huntmaster would have far more impact and doesn't die to deed
In several games I was happy to have Dreadbore instead of Decay. ( I ran a 2/1 split) Especially preboard it gives an extra option against the dreaded plainswalkers
Would it be possible to put Nethervoid in the board together with a Diabolic intent. After SB this means you have 2 intent + nethervoid. This might give you some outs against storm decks that seem to be appearing in our local meta game. It is probably not consistent enough to warrant space in the SB?

Otherwise the games ran well and I am going to test the deck a bit more and see if I can come up with any other suggestions.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I feel like I should mention Maelstrom Pulse over Dreadbore. For 3 CMC instead of 2 CMC, you get two big perks:

1. The ability to hit any high CMC nonland permanent without built-in protection (Affinity and Solidarity come to mind).
2. The ability to sweep token armies away. (Goblins, Zombies, etc.)

Though I do agree with a 2-1 split: 2-2 just doesn't work as well.

[Cire_dk]

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I feel like I should mention Maelstrom Pulse over Dreadbore. For 3 CMC instead of 2 CMC, you get two big perks:

1. The ability to hit any high CMC nonland permanent without built-in protection (Affinity and Solidarity come to mind).
2. The ability to sweep token armies away. (Goblins, Zombies, etc.)

Though I do agree with a 2-1 split: 2-2 just doesn't work as well.

Thanks for your input.
This original list contains 3 decay and 2 pulse. (page 148) I agree pulse is very good so I was looking at alternatives for 3 decay. So dread bore/decay 2/1 maybe even dread bore/decay/vindicate 1/1/1 because vindicate can get rid of pesky lands as wel.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks for your input.
This original list contains 3 decay and 2 pulse. (page 148) I agree pulse is very good so I was looking at alternatives for 3 decay. So dread bore/decay 2/1 maybe even dread bore/decay/vindicate 1/1/1 because vindicate can get rid of pesky lands as wel.

D'oh! Should have looked at the original list ^_^" My bad. Well, if you want a non-white way to get rid of (or at least stifle) Planeswalkers, I suggest Pithing Needle over Dreadbore. Shuts down Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and manlands until they find an answer for it, locks CounterTop into their top card (which you can play around to some extent), and turns Planeswalkers into sacks of magical potatoes. Hell, against a greedy manabase with lots of fetches, it can even be used as land denial.

Between you and me, I think Dreadbore would have been an auto-include if it were an Instant. However, it competes with too much to be of any use as a sorcery.

[kabards]

@kabards

Although I cannot call it proper indepth testing I do have some thoughts:
Ooze can be good but I felt a Third huntmaster would have far more impact and doesn't die to deed
In several games I was happy to have Dreadbore instead of Decay. ( I ran a 2/1 split) Especially preboard it gives an extra option against the dreaded plainswalkers
Would it be possible to put Nethervoid in the board together with a Diabolic intent. After SB this means you have 2 intent + nethervoid. This might give you some outs against storm decks that seem to be appearing in our local meta game. It is probably not consistent enough to warrant space in the SB?

Otherwise the games ran well and I am going to test the deck a bit more and see if I can come up with any other suggestions.

Jace the Mindsculptor and Karn is the only difficult to deal with unlike the other planeswalker that you can remove/kill. And about the Nether Void, it is best if you have token producer maindeck in your deck like Garruk Primalhunter / Garruk Relentless or a piece of manland. Because you can also be locked up by Nether Void. :tongue: About the Ooze, it's just your answer to GY hate that's why i put 2pcs of it in mainboard a big threat when not be removed early by opponent. Playing against white variants deck ooze always eats up Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshare so if that happens you have a piece of ooze that you can zenith again. :laugh: Don't be hesitant to blow up your ooze when you already have Pernicious Deed in play, you can recurr your Ooze via Eternal Witness / Volrath's Stronghold. Also try using the deck in major/small tournaments then you will find out using this deck is enjoyable :laugh:

Tomorrow i'll post how do i board in and board out vs other decks.

[Cire_dk]

I suggest Pithing Needle over Dreadbore. Shuts down Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and manlands until they find an answer for it, locks CounterTop into their top card (which you can play around to some extent), and turns Planeswalkers into sacks of magical potatoes. Hell, against a greedy manabase with lots of fetches, it can even be used as land denial.

Between you and me, I think Dreadbore would have been an auto-include if it were an Instant. However, it competes with too much to be of any use as a sorcery.

All very truth but needle gets killed by deed, since we use deed a lot the interruption would not be permanent enough to save the game imo. Especially since we have a control deck.

Dreadbore being a sorcery is only a slight disadvantage considering that if it does not kill a Planeswalker it will at least draw out their counters.

[litenkatt]

finally got ahold of a Moat! only nether void left and my rector list is complete

[Cire_dk]

finally got ahold of a Moat! only nether void left and my rector list is complete

Gratz I am sure you will enjoy it. Moat is worth the stupid amount of money :smile:

[Ayotte]

Arianrhod it would be really sweet if you made a publicly viewable google doc with your current lists. I hate looking through every page when I want the most recent rector list to copy and paste into cockatrice.

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, I'm actually working on that now. I'm trying to figure out the last two spots in my board currently, then I'll be putting all of that up.I need to actually update/resume work on the Primer, too :|

[Ayotte]

Yeah, I'm actually working on that now. I'm trying to figure out the last two spots in my board currently, then I'll be putting all of that up.I need to actually update/resume work on the Primer, too :|

Sweet. Thanks dude. I was scrolling through pages and then I noticed that it had come up earlier so I decided to badger you :)

[Arianrhod]

Alright, I put Rector up in my sig. Can someone confirm if it actually works or not? I'll put up Scapewish once it's confirmed working.

Also, the 2x Abrupt Decay in the sideboard are placeholders at the moment. I don't know what the hell I want in those slots -- I tried Choke and was reminded of why I hate it; I also attempted Angel of Serenity and she was lackluster (a shame, because I actually wanted her to be as good as I thought she could be). Decay is jut generally good and can fill in while I figure out what the hell else I want.

[Cire_dk]

Alright, I put Rector up in my sig. Can someone confirm if it actually works or not? I'll put up Scapewish once it's confirmed working.

Also, the 2x Abrupt Decay in the sideboard are placeholders at the moment. I don't know what the hell I want in those slots -- I tried Choke and was reminded of why I hate it; I also attempted Angel of Serenity and she was lackluster (a shame, because I actually wanted her to be as good as I thought she could be). Decay is jut generally good and can fill in while I figure out what the hell else I want.

Just to let you know the link does not work for me :frown:

EDIT: Rector list does work, primer did not.

[Arianrhod]

Asdagfsdlgfnsgfnsegn

K. Brb tweaking.

Edit: Oh, okay. That's the one I wanted to test at the moment anyway. Thanks!

Edit 2: latest Rector and Scapewish lists are on Docs now, so you guys should be able to access them freely.

[Water_Wizard]

ScapeWish and Rector worked on docs.

Primer on Pastebin did not.

Thanks for all of your hard work!

EDIT - Pastepin now works (11 hours after original post).

[slikwilly]

All links work for me, including Pastebin. Might be worth moving that to google docs too though. Keeps everything in one place to edit and you can share it out to other folks to contribute to editing it.

[Arianrhod]

All links work for me, including Pastebin. Might be worth moving that to google docs too though. Keeps everything in one place to edit and you can share it out to other folks to contribute to editing it.

I'm planning on doing this -- but I'm going to go through and do some updates, fill out some more sections, etc when I move it over. It'll be a good way to force myself to actually work on it, lol.

[XdeckX]

Last night I ran Viridia's OmniscienceFit list in a really mellow instore tournament (we had 13 ppl which is actually quite allot) 3 rounds (last round you battle for a booster)
I only switched the Future Sight for Recurring Nightmare, switched 1 Strix for Coiling Oracle and added an extra basic Plains. Other than that it was an exact copy ;)
I went to the tournament not expecting to do well (never even goldfished the list) only with hopes of accomplishing 3 things

1) Rector into Diabolic Intent into Omniscience+Emrakul
2) Go 'infinite' with Omniscience, Recurring Nightmare, Baleful Strix (or Oracle) and a other random dude
3) Intent an Emrakul away to find it again and play it again.

All 3 objectives have been achieved during the 3 rounds I played. Man I had a blast. But I must admit I've been quite lucky with the matchups:
Rock, Punishing Fit, MonoR Goblins.

Round 1 my opponent made a really big mistake which cost him the game and let me achieve objective 1. He had an active Deathrite Shaman in play with mana open. He failed to exile the Rector in responce to the trigger (although that might just have been his unfamilairity with cards like Rector since he ususally plays Standard) Game 2 I achieved objective 2.

Round 2 I had to fetch Faith's Fetters to stop a Liliana of the Veil and Rector into Moat to survive his groundbound onslaught. I naturally draw into Emrakul and Intent for the last Rector with a Tower in play. My opponent brainfarted this game as well Zenithing into his Broodmate Dragon instead of just finding his Acidic Slime. Anyway I swing with Emrakul, play Eternal Witness to regrowth my Intent, play Intent saccing Emrakul and find Emrakul. Objective 3 achieved. g2 went to time with me stalling my opponent with Moat.

R3 I draw Emrakul on turn 3 and Therapy away Rector on turn 4. My opponent just had 4 lands, Warren Instigator and Piledriver.
G2 I naturally draw Moat and play it on turn 2 with help of Tower and Veteran Explorer. Enemy scoops forgetting he still has an out with SGC.

The sideboard was hardly used but that's only because the maindeck was good enough against my matchups.

I want to give Viridia mad props for putting this list together. Eventhough I doubt I would run it in a large tournament it actually is pretty good and really hilarious to play.

[Viridia]

I want to give Viridia mad props for putting this list together. Eventhough I doubt I would run it in a large tournament it actually is pretty good and really hilarious to play.

Thanks :laugh: It is a lot of fun to pilot ^^ I might take it to some more small-ish tournaments when i have time, just to see the looks on opponents faces when you go infinite or Intent into Omni + Emrakul :P
Did you ever miss just going Rector -> Future Sight? (If you can't sac it to intent)

[XdeckX]

Thanks :laugh: It is a lot of fun to pilot ^^ I might take it to some more small-ish tournaments when i have time, just to see the looks on opponents faces when you go infinite or Intent into Omni + Emrakul :P
Did you ever miss just going Rector -> Future Sight? (If you can't sac it to intent)
To be honest: No. Most of the time I would just hold Rector in hand until I had some way of finding Emrakul or just play Rector as a creature based Moat. You can always find something with her. Future Sight just felt like win-more. Recurring Nightmare + a carddrawer works just as well.

I admit FS is a strong card but I chose this build for a reason: to have a blast playing it in a mellow tournament environment (most ppl know eachother) Nightmare is usually the source of lots of silly plays. Finding your basics, Regrowth-ing your graveyard, carddrawing, lifegain and tokenproduction. Its all possible with Nightmare and its a bitch to get rid of ;) FS just doesnt provide you with all these things in 1 card.

And being able to draw your library until you find Emrakul is obviously a huge plus for Nightmare as well.

[Viridia]

Yeah, when we revised the list that evening, we actually added 1 Recurring Nightmare, but we didn't know what to take out yet. Maybe it's correct to just take out the Future Sight.
I wouldn't play a 2nd basic plains tho, it's a colorless land until you find a Rector, and you also already play 2 or 3 duals that produce white mana :)

I'll continue working on the list to see if i can make some improvements in it :)

[XdeckX]

The reason I added a 2nd basic Plains was just to be able to hardcast Moat. With just 1 plains and 1 nonbasic plains I felt the risk was too high. The turn 2 Moat in game 3 was only possible because I played 2 plains. Perhaps playing only 1 is fine most of the time though. Like I said I didnt test the list and just changed some stuff I thought would improve the deck (only by a small margin)

[Arianrhod]

Viridia, I'm blanking on names and I'm also feeling incredibly lazy today (so I'm not going to go back and find it) -- but have you tried the Scroll Rack technology? I can't remember the guy's name who suggested it -- he was also working an Omniscience version, and he had like 2x Scroll Rack in the deck to shuffle away Emrakul/Omniscience if they were drawn. I mean, dies to Deed and all, but you should never have to put them back more than once a game, what with Top and all.

Also, how goes the hunt for the Scapeshifts? That convention is in just over a week, so we should probably deal with the one that you had found, at least, so that it gets here in time.

[Viridia]

I haven't tried the Scroll Racks yet, but i think i prefer playing 4-color and having access to brainstorm and possible sideboard options.
I'll try to test them :)

Also i'll send the Scapeshift asap! Hope it'll arrive in time.

[Arianrhod]

Sweet. I'll make that one my Burning Wish target, then, since it'll be different from my other two. At least I'll have one in its "ultimate pimp" form =) Just PM me what I owe you.

Also, I've mentioned thinking about a 5-color version for a while now, but I've never really fleshed the idea out. Have you considered Chromatic Lantern, if you're drifting that way? Stick in a pair of Lanterns, and then you could actually just hardcast the damn Omniscience if you draw it. Lantern (and some rainbow mana base elements like City of Brass/Reflecting Pool/etc) would also enable you to run REBs and Slaughter Games in the board, which IMO are the single best thing about Red in Nic Fit (enabling Scapeshift and Burning Wish are close 3rd and 4th reasons). Just some food for thought. At the point at which you're splashing blue for Brainstorm, why not go deep and try it out?

[Viridia]

I've actually thought of that, however the lanterns die to every Deed :(
Also my m8 told me he actually hardcasted Omniscience in about 1/3 of the games where he got it into play :P

[Viridia]

"Doublepost"

I would need Huntmasters aswel tho, hmm. Need to get those :P

Edit: Thinking about it, Gemstone Mines is pretty good in this list, not costing any life, and you can use it 2 times before the Lantern gets online for any color. I do think you still need Fetches and Duals etc. So i made a sort of started list for the mainboard, i just put this together quickly, but i think it's not a bad start :P



Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
1 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

15 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
3 Baleful Strix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer


22 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chromatic Lantern
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Omniscience
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Planeswalkers
1 Karn Liberated