[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Ryno]

@Arianrhod

Would you mind explaining your reasoning in the changes from the Rector list in the primer and your current Rector list?



Kokusho -> Yosei
2 Elspeth + Wood Elves -> 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder + Starved Rusalka

[godofallu]

So i'm sort of interested in Nic Fit at the moment and when I checked the thread I saw some talk about Arianrhad's primer/lists. As a person who is pretty new to the archetype I figured I would read through it and here are a few things I was thinking about. As a nub my thoughts/ideas probably aren't worth as much as everyone elses but i'll post in-case someone is interested.

1 The decks primer really doesn't explain how to play the deck. Recurring Nightmare is a confusing card with many hidden combos that are not always apparent. A guy used polinchron + recurring against me to get infinite mana and draw his deck and then looped kokusho for the win against me a few days ago as one example. He did it so fast I was unable to figure out how/what he did and I sat puzzled for a while afterwords trying to piece it together. Granted I had never played with recurring nightmare before, but that's one of the reasons i'm here. I want to try the card/learn it's synergies.

Another example is the twin towers are a huge part of the deck that I overlooked when playing my first few times. I didn't understand why they were there, and I still don't fully get all of the interactions. Or when to use/get them. IMO a primer should explain the core combos/interactions.

2 Academy Rector as a 4 drop for enchantments that are all 4cc or less seems wasteful. I know the main focus is on using it as a tutor but... why not play a giant enchantment that automatically wins you the game when it hits? Seems hard enough getting her through counters/Exile effects. Might as well make the battle worth it. I saw someone talking about omniscience and while I haven't looked into alternatives that does certainly seem to be a insta-win card. Why durdle with Moat when you can just Omni-Grissle/Emrakul/Nightmare Loop?

When playing FOW maindeck generally you save it for cards that you absolutely must counter. When you have 4x Reactor, multiple 5 and 6 drops (+GSZ for them), and Deed/Arena/Recurring your opponent can't FOW them all. Especially with witness picking them back up again.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the core of a 5-color list would be . . . my guess is something like the Rector+Omni+Nightmare Plan (Emrakul pales in comparison to a Nightmare loop), with Burning Wish able to fetch Diabolic Intent and other utility sorceries.

My recommendation for a land base would be 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Reflecting Pool, 2 Tendo Ice Bridge, and some combination of Forbidden Orchard, City of Brass, and Tarnished Citadel, and then basics/utility lands.

[jobdevries]

Hey guys,

Been a while since I was actively reading the forum. Tomorrow I'm playing my BGw(r) list on a legacy tourney, so I got some questions for you guys ;).
First of all, the current list I'm using:

Creatures (14):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

Spells (25):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Diabolic Intent

Land (21):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain

//SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Peacekeeper
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Kitchen Finks

1. I notice there are barely any traditional BGw lists around anymore (that is, being posted). The focus seems mainly on BGu/scapeshift/punishing fire decks, and blue just ain't my color. So, any up-to-date BGw-lists people can post?
2. I took Thragtusk out. He stalls the game, but isn't much of a thread in my opinion. I'd rather have a punishing Titan/Sigarda. Still I see him heavily played. Do you guys think he is that good? Might be my list (i.e. no recurring nightmare) just isn't that suited for Thragtusk.
3. Anyone experience with Wolfir Silverheart? Anyone experience with Reveillark? (seems really good, nearly all your creatures have a power of 2 or less, including Eternal Witness to take back anything you need).

Thanks in advance,

Job

[Viridia]

Wolfir can be pretty good, testing him in my online build atm.
However i wouldn't play KotR and possibly cut back on the Swords, you're running 3 Deeds, 4 Swords, Abrupt Decay and Pulse now. which in my opinion isn't needed. I'd cut 1-2 of the Swords.

Thragtusk is really really good, even if you don't run Recurring Nightmare, being able to Zenith for something that gains you 5 life, and brings 5 power and isn't very easy to remove (due to the beast on death) makes it pretty good in the mid-game, or against fast/burn decks.
In your list i probably wouldn't play Thrun either, because Sigarda fullfils nearly the same role, but being alot stronger.

[jobdevries]

Hm, I don't think I agree on you about the Swords. They are one of the mainreasons I'm playing white. I think I do need the removal as well, since I'm not countering anything whatsoever. If you would cut out 1-2 swords, kotr and thrun, what cards would you suggest?
Thanks for the quick response!

One other card I'm considering, but really having my doubts about, is Vraska the Unseen. Any thoughts?

Edit: Can I see what list you are playing currently, Viridia?

[Viridia]

My GBW List is a Rector list, so can't really compare it very well :)
I have found out however, that with the Rector list 1-2 Swords alongside 1-2 Pulses and 3 Deed is well enough for removal.
I'd suggest getting the Thragtusk in and possibly a Recurring Nightmare, because you can still Tutor for it with Diabolic Intent, and it's quite amazing with Tusk/Titans/Huntmaster to make a quick finish.
Maybe you could play 1 Pulse, 2 Swords, 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Deeds as removal orso? I believe the Abrupt Decays are often better, because you'll generally spend your first turn casting discard/top/Explorer anyway.

Also, i haven't really didn't have time to test Vraska yet, but i believe Arianrhod said she disappointed him.

[jobdevries]

My GBW List is a Rector list, so can't really compare it very well :)
I have found out however, that with the Rector list 1-2 Swords alongside 1-2 Pulses and 3 Deed is well enough for removal.
I'd suggest getting the Thragtusk in and possibly a Recurring Nightmare, because you can still Tutor for it with Diabolic Intent, and it's quite amazing with Tusk/Titans/Huntmaster to make a quick finish.
Maybe you could play 1 Pulse, 2 Swords, 2 Abrupt Decay and 3 Deeds as removal orso? I believe the Abrupt Decays are often better, because you'll generally spend your first turn casting discard/top/Explorer anyway.

Also, i haven't really didn't have time to test Vraska yet, but i believe Arianrhod said she disappointed him.

I'll consider the Thragtusk and Recurring Nightmare, thanks :). About the swords.. they give you different options compared to abrupt decay. They cost only 1, and can get rid of all CMC creatures (reanimator, show 'n tell, which are hard matchups imo). They both have their pro's and con's.. ^^ Might be wise to replace 1 StP for Abrupt Decay, though. Thanks again for your help.

[Viridia]

Seeing your sideboard, what are you using the 4 Peedles for? Also i think for Storm hate it's better to get some more targeted discard and possible a Surgical extraction or 2 because they also splash for other decks (Show and Tell, Reanimator, Dredge etc.) Rather then the Leylines.

[Viridia]

So i'm sort of interested in Nic Fit at the moment and when I checked the thread I saw some talk about Arianrhad's primer/lists. As a person who is pretty new to the archetype I figured I would read through it and here are a few things I was thinking about. As a nub my thoughts/ideas probably aren't worth as much as everyone elses but i'll post in-case someone is interested.

1 The decks primer really doesn't explain how to play the deck. Recurring Nightmare is a confusing card with many hidden combos that are not always apparent. A guy used polinchron + recurring against me to get infinite mana and draw his deck and then looped kokusho for the win against me a few days ago as one example. He did it so fast I was unable to figure out how/what he did and I sat puzzled for a while afterwords trying to piece it together. Granted I had never played with recurring nightmare before, but that's one of the reasons i'm here. I want to try the card/learn it's synergies.

Another example is the twin towers are a huge part of the deck that I overlooked when playing my first few times. I didn't understand why they were there, and I still don't fully get all of the interactions. Or when to use/get them. IMO a primer should explain the core combos/interactions.

2 Academy Rector as a 4 drop for enchantments that are all 4cc or less seems wasteful. I know the main focus is on using it as a tutor but... why not play a giant enchantment that automatically wins you the game when it hits? Seems hard enough getting her through counters/Exile effects. Might as well make the battle worth it. I saw someone talking about omniscience and while I haven't looked into alternatives that does certainly seem to be a insta-win card. Why durdle with Moat when you can just Omni-Grissle/Emrakul/Nightmare Loop?

When playing FOW maindeck generally you save it for cards that you absolutely must counter. When you have 4x Reactor, multiple 5 and 6 drops (+GSZ for them), and Deed/Arena/Recurring your opponent can't FOW them all. Especially with witness picking them back up again.

While i can't really respond to your first point, as i'm not writing the Primer, i can to the second.
Rector is qood for multiple reasons:
It's a tutor, with Rusalka/Phyrexian Tower on instant speed.
It's a body for your Cabal Therapy and Intent.
It makes it able to run 1-offs like: Moat, Recurring Nightmare, Faith's Fetters aswell as silver bullets in your sideboard like Humility and Nether Void.

If you weren't running Rector, you wouldnt be able to fit in all these enchantments, and they're all gamebreaking vs some Matchups.

[waSP]

If you weren't running Rector, you wouldnt be able to fit in all these enchantments, and they're all gamebreaking vs some Matchups.

Sure you can Viridia. You just run Enlightened Tutor instead. It also gives you slightly better access to Top and any other artifacts you may be running (if people are on the Ruins plan). Also, it is ACTUALLY instant speed.

[Cire_dk]

Sure you can Viridia. You just run Enlightened Tutor instead. It also gives you slightly better access to Top and any other artifacts you may be running (if people are on the Ruins plan). Also, it is ACTUALLY instant speed.

When you play enlightened tutor you can only tutor for a card and put in on top of your library. This makes it susceptible to shuffle effects. Also from your opponent. Once the choosen card is in your hand you will have to be able to cast it. This is counter sensitive.
With academy rector they can only counter rector. If they don't there is hardly any way to stop the trigger once you sac. the rector. This makes a big difference in a nic fit deck.
As you said you are new to this deck. So am I, but I found out the only way to get some understanding is Play the deck. This raises lots of questions but will give you many answers as well.
Good luck testing.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Enlightened Tutor is terribad in this synergy-based archetype. Can you sac Enlightened Tutor to Diabolic Intent to cheat Omniscience into play and then go infinitely infinite with Recurring Nightmare? Can you sac it to Cabal Therapy to strip their hand of a tribal deck's answer to Moat or a Storm deck's answer to Nether Void while getting said hate onto the board? And most importantly: what does it do for any ramp-based archetype?

Like Arianrhod's primer suggests: "Ask not what this deck can do for this card, but what this card can do for this deck."

[Greenpoe]

After EpicLevelCommander posted his build of Future Sight Nic Fit (Dig Fit - http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247 ), I re-evaluated my approach to it after testing his build. The main problem I had with his build was that I frequently found myself getting slowed significantly by Wasteland, since he's got 2 Eternal Witness, 1 Acidic Slime, 2 Liliana, 2 Jace and 1 Future Sight. So you're frequently reliant on duals to get the job done, especially since his build only has 2 Island, so you need a dual for Future Sight. I changed everything around so that once you have three Islands, a swamp and a forest, you can cast everything in the maindeck (except a 1-of Eternal Witness, but it's there as a GSZ target mainly). This makes it significantly easier to dodge Wasteland entirely. Plus, I found Baleful Strix to be an extremely strong card for Nic Fit and wanted to optimize the list to fit it in as a 4-of. (Card advantage wins games, this is the mantra of Magic. Oracle+Strix+Jace+Deed=card advantage heaven!) It's a 2-mana flying creature-cantrip that forces them to overextend into a Deed and protects Jace! Jace has been absolutely amazing in the deck. At least half the wins come from Jace, using the creatures to clog up the board and Deeds to wipe it so he'll power right up to a win. Vs. Control decks, Jace is obviously amazing, too.

The Living Wishes have been great, too, as long as you're good at thinking a turn ahead. Coiling Oracle is quite good, since he's a body to block for Jace, sac to Therapy, cantrip or ramp, etc. but I may try replacing them with Cliques- Clique can be disruption or a cantrip for you. Flash&flying helps you deal with enemy Planeswalkers. 3 power means rather than just chumping, you'd usually kill whatever it blocks. The "reveal their hand" part would be really nifty with Therapy, if you either haven't played one yet or played one several turns ago and didn't flash it back yet. Plus, the early pressure could be useful. Dunno if its worth the 3-mana or not.
Lands
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Deathrite Shaman

Spells
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Future Sight
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Duress
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Magus of the Future
1 Maze of Ith
1 Acidic Slime

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I like this guy, this Greenpoe guy.

Not so much his list (Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle don't sit well with me because why play a chump-blocking cantrip), but because of his analysis of my list, namely the 2 basic Islands and the Magus/Future Sight. And I like your solution to that, Greenpoe: drop a fetch for a 3rd Island.

And his list looks pretty nifty (outside of its similarities to my own): in fact, I'd even go so far as to say he's got a better chance of winning without the combo thanks to a greater amount of creatures and "I-Win" walkers [Liliana only stalls unless its against combo, though her with Jace is devastating against any deck].

EDIT: Question for anyone, but would a bounce effect be useful against OmniTell? Venser, Shaper Savant looks like a castable alternative to Angel of Despair/Oblivion Ring in Show and Tell matchups and has the added bonus of buying time like Thragtusk.

[Arianrhod]

Went to Vestal this past weekend, playing Rector (as I had loaned out ScapeWish to Steve). I played like a complete monkey, and, in concert with my deck just absolutely digging in its heels and refusing to do anything (played vs aggroloam. Couldn't draw an Extirpate, or a GSZ), I ended up dropping at 1-3 in a very frustrated manner. That said, 3 good things:

1) Karmic revenge on Bobby. Last time I was there, he was the guy that t1 Hypergenesised me for lethal. This time he was playing Doomsday, and I got to introduce him to Nether Void. Now that the debts are cleared, maybe we'll be able to have some fun in the future. But that was payback =P (Sidenote: that was actually a really legit match. I'm still in awe that you were able to pull g1 out of your ass).

2) McKinney randomly was in possession of a set of german foil Huntmasters. I successfully acquired 3. Pictures will be posted in the pimp thread Sunday night -- Steve currently has them (he's practicing with ScapeWish for Mythic), and then I'm going to be getting them signed by the artist on Sunday courtesy of IlluxCon. That's a random and huge chunk of pimp for ScapeWish that I was -not- expecting on finding, ever....let alone in time to get them signed.

3) Steve and Louis (both on ScapeWish) did very, very well. Louis got top 4, and Steve ended up around 12th (but could have very easily top 8'd as well). Once Jupiter puts the footage up from the feature matches that Louis was in, I'll link them on here. I know one of his features was in the top 8 -- he smashed through Nick Patnode's goblins. There may have been a turn 4 kill in game three. I'm pretty sure he had a 2nd feature match as well, but I'm not sure what it was against. ScapeWish continues to prove itself to be a monster.

Relatedly, I saw a tweet from Brian Sondag that he got 26th at SCG St. Louis with Scapeshift, but SCG decided to be cool and only put up deck lists through 24th. I sent him back a tweet to find out if he was on Veteran Explorers or some other Scapeshift brew, but if he was on ScapeWish, there's another accolade for it as well.

Aside from my personal failings as a pilot and my deck being stubborn, though, there are a few relevant things to point out that I noticed from Jupiter.

The meta is in the process of shifting, hard. Show and Tell was almost completely gone, for one. That in and of itself opens up a ton of sideboard space for me. Also, Deathrite Shaman is the real deal, and he is enabling a large number of decks that couldn't exist beforehand. There were several Jund decks in the room, as well as a lot of Deathrite Junk (the finals between Eli and Komar was a Junk mirror). Now, the Deathrite Junk decks are designed to do the following sequence:

t1 Deathrite
t2 Liliana of the Veil, +1 until ultimate
t3-6 Disrupt/play Knight of the Reliquary
t6/7 Liliana ult, punch with KotR ftw.

This represents a few problems for us. Deathrite, as per Scavenging Ooze, can be an enormous pain in the dick. If there is any one card that might make us adopt more traditional spot removal, it's this guy. Planeswalkers can be an inordinate amount of trouble if they land early, and a t2 Liliana every game is not a fun thing, especially since this deck in particular is designed with her ultimate in mind. This isn't a deck that sits there and diddles her to "control the board." It is entirely focused on ulting her. Now, I didn't play vs this deck with Rector, so I can't say how that matchup is. Rector has Sigarda, which I think the Deathrite Junk deck just loses to. However, having 4 Deathrite Shamans means bad things for Rector-the-card, which could be a problem. It's hard to say. I'm not sure how worried we need to be about the Deathrite decks, but they are the future of the meta. We need to figure out where we stand in relation to them now and make the necessary changes before they are absolutely everywhere.

I ended up trying the pair of Abrupt Decays in my board for the event because I just couldn't come up with anything better to put in those slots. They ended up being above average, but not amazing. I played vs Miracles, Doomsday, Aggroloam, and DnT. They were good at killing Counterbalances, but my opponent always had more copies of Counterbalance, which sucked. It did kill a Seismic Assault in g2 vs Loam, which was relevant because Assault is the half of that deck that we care about (not their groundpounders). And it was useless vs DnT. It like, killed a Sword of Light and Shadow. Now, I do think that if we are talking about changes because of the Deathrite decks, Decay is probably a good place to start looking. It's a solid catch-all answer vs a lot of decks, and it kills Liliana of the Veil. If Deathrite Junk isn't bleeding us of resources while putting a serious clock on our board state, I don't think we care about that deck -at all-.

Also, as a parting shot, Enlightened Tutor is absolutely horrible. I used to run them in my sideboard, and I hated them even there. They have no synergy with the deck, and in fact have a great deal of anti-synergy. That they cost you a draw step is a -huge- deal. If you really want me to go on a tirade about why Enlightened Tutor sucks for Nic Fit, I will. But for now I'm just going to say that I have actually tried it and it is in fact horrible, and I'll see if that kills the topic or that before wasting my time explaining it.

@Ryno

Kokusho -> Yosei
2 Elspeth + Wood Elves -> 2 Sakura-Tribe Elder + Starved Rusalka

Kokusho vs Yosei is something that took me a long time to decide upon/realize which one is better. Kokusho seems better on the surface, since he lets you drain for 5, and, when looped through Nightmare, actually ends the game. It seems like Yosei doesn't win the game -- it just stalls out while you try to find something else to kill them with. However, the reverse is actually true. Kokusho can certainly win the game for you, but he cant't stop you from losing the game, which Yosei can. It turns out that if you stop your opponent from untapping for the rest of the game, that's a pretty good way to win the game, too -- and Yosei can save your bacon, where Kokusho can't. If you're facing down a board of multiple Goyfs, a Kokusho drain probably won't save your life. Yosei timewalking them, however, can buy you the time to draw into an answer. Also, something to keep in mind about Yosei: his effect stacks. So if you sac Yosei 3 times in a turn, they skip their NEXT THREE UNTAPS. What that means is that Yosei actually CAN kill your opponent. You make them skip an arbitrary number of untaps, then end the turn with Yosei in play and proceed to beat face until they die, looping him as necessary to keep them under lockdown.

The other three slots are much simpler to explain. Wood Elves was an experiment at the time, because Wood Elves is sex on a stick in ScapeWish. I thought it might be as good in Rector, but I was mistaken. Sakura-Tribes are far superior in Rector, as they ramp you from 2 -> 4, instead of 3 -> 5. Starved Rusalka is far more amazing than it looks on paper. Having a cheap, GSZable sac outlet is a big deal. It makes your Explorers better, as sometimes you don't have a Therapy or a Tower and your opponent is refusing to attack into them, and it makes your Rectors better (obviously). Relevant: it lets you sacrifice at instant speed, which means you can EoT an Explorer so your opponent doesn't get to take advantage of the ramp on their turn, or you can do some funny Rector tricks. Also, it protects your guys from exile via Swords. While Rusalka is out, nobody gets RFGd unless you say so, which means you can always recur your threats later. I've had multiple opponents have to Swords my Rusalka just on principle, because while he's hanging out, it can become really, really hard for them to effectively control the game.

Elspeth was a painful card to cut, because she's really good. However, at some point, the deck needs to function more off of internal synergies than just raw card power. Elspeth is a very powerful card, but she doesn't synergize as well as you would expect with the deck. She works well with Moat out, obviously, and her emblem makes Deed hilarious. But outside of that, she doesn't really contribute anything to the deck. Getting in a GSZ sac outlet and a backup source of ramp in the Tribe-Elders is a lot more important than having more power. We already have more power than most decks in the format. It's just a matter of smoothly accessing it.

That all make sense?

[Vicar in a tutu]

I mentioned a page or two back in the thread that I was going to a tournament with B/G Nic Fit. Anyway, I ended up winning, but the turn-up was miserable: 6 people. And two showed up with standard decks (they were almost completely new to magic). Although unfortunate, we tried our best giving them lots of information and hints about legacy, advicing them to start with either burn or affinity. One of them played the golgari event deck, but was crushed by Hive Mind. I gave him a bunch of legacy playable uncommons, including Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, Darkblast and some other stuff I had extras of.

We decided prior to starting the tournament that we wanted 4 rounds of swiss and then finale. The tournament wasn't sanctioned, so it was all completely informal. Anyway, in the swiss I played against Burn (won 2-1, thank you Thragtusk), Hive Mind (lost 0-2, got crushed), BUG Shardless (won 2-1) and one of the newbies (won 2-0). Notably, I won 2-1 against Hive Mind in the finals. Game 1 I started with Cabal Therapy, successfully hitting Show and Tell. Next turn I sacrificed a Deathrite Shaman and flashbacked the cabal. The turn after that I landed a Sensei's Divining Top, searched my top 3, used the top and cast Thoughtseize. The turn after that I cast Eternal Witness, got Thoughtseize back from the graveyard and cast it again. Game two was all about the Leyline of Sanctuary. If he got the sanctuary, he basically made it impossible for me to interact with him. In the swiss he started game two with a leyline, and won on round two. There was sadness in my face as I looked at the useless discard spells in my hand.

However, game two in the finals, he mulled twice without finding it. Huzzah! The game essentially ended when I extirpated his Hive Minds. For reference, here is the deck I used:


Lands (22)

5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

Creatures (13)

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (24)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top-
4 Abrupt Decay

Walkers (3)

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Sideboard

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Angel of Despair
1 Golgari Charm


I'm seriously considering cutting the Primeval Titan and adding another Thragtusk. It can be difficult getting 6 mana (7 for Green Sun) and Thragtusk really improves my match-ups against burn and aggro. In my experience, titan tends to arrive one turn too late against these decks. I would never cut the Tree-top Villages, however, even if I cut the titan. Man-lands rock against planeswalkers, I have killed many Jaces with them.

What do you think? Cut or keep Titan?

[Ayotte]

What version of this deck has the best matchup vs. combo? I am getting very frustrated because every week I go 2-2 because I win a couple matches against delver or maverick and then I play against high tide/MUD/belcher and just straight up lose. I'm currently on B/G but I want to add another color now that I have some extra money to spend. I can chalk up some of my losses to some pretty egregious mistakes like shuffling away tops or getting a Thrun out without regeneration mana, but there are still matchups that feel absolutely unwinnable and I seem to always get placed against the two people playing those decks out of the 16 in the room. My plan against combo currently is to side out all the deeds/removal and bring in cranial extractions and discard/extirpate.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Keep Titan, drop Thrun.

In my limited experience, Thrun, while a good card, lacks a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck. Titan, however, has so many uses, ranging from assembling Stronghold Tower to grind the win out to getting twin Treetops out for the 2-turn trample clock.

Having said that, Prime Time has lost a lot of its appeal for me as well, but that's mostly because Dig Fit can, well, dig into Stronghold Tower if it really needs it, and assembling it in one shot isn't as important as I thought it was.

@ Ayotte: RectorFit or IntuitionFit: the former because getting those enchantments on the board will seal the win for you, and the latter because Intuition into 3xCabal Therapy with bodies in the hand or on the board is absolutely devastating. But other than that, most versions straight up fold to combo, hence why I've elected to run Living Wish for the slower combo decks [i.e. Dredge/Reanimator, OmniTell/SneakShow, etc.]

[Greenpoe]

What version of this deck has the best matchup vs. combo? I am getting very frustrated because every week I go 2-2 because I win a couple matches against delver or maverick and then I play against high tide/MUD/belcher and just straight up lose. I'm currently on B/G but I want to add another color now that I have some extra money to spend. I can chalk up some of my losses to some pretty egregious mistakes like shuffling away tops or getting a Thrun out without regeneration mana, but there are still matchups that feel absolutely unwinnable and I seem to always get placed against the two people playing those decks out of the 16 in the room. My plan against combo currently is to side out all the deeds/removal and bring in cranial extractions and discard/extirpate.

You're in GB and want to win vs. combo? Run Hymn and a couple Liliana? I always liked Hymn in the GB version (excellent vs. combo & control), and Liliana does something vs combo, too.

[Zirath]

If anything, I'd rather drop Titan than Thrun. One of my group has had success with Wolfir Silverheart and Kodama of the North Tree. Weird cards but Silverheart is very powerful with Shroud creatures since it makes it awkward on removal. 5 drops are very important in this deck since it's the critical mana spot. Titan also doesn't really have the impact that you would like a lot of the time.

I think the bigger question is what do you want that slot to do?

[Ayotte]

You're in GB and want to win vs. combo? Run Hymn and a couple Liliana? I always liked Hymn in the GB version (excellent vs. combo & control), and Liliana does something vs combo, too.

I tried 2 Hymns, but I didn't like them so now they are 2 Thoughtseizes, which I think is better for what I want the slots to do. I also run 3 Liliana, but I don't like her vs combo. I feel like she's much more useful vs. fair decks. It takes too long for the discard ability to be significant for it to work vs. combo.

[Arianrhod]

Two words:

Nether Void

Resolve Nether Void, or cheat into play via Rector, and any stack-based combo deck immediately dies. At that point the only thing you need to worry about is their out: Cranial them naming Wipe Away, see if if they have like Chain of Vapor or whatnot, and go from there. It's almost impossible for stack-based combo to beat Nether Void, and it makes Omniscience's life a living hell, too, although they can get out of it a lot easier.

Rector as I have it set up right now is actually surprisingly good vs combo, but the various BUG lists should, theoretically, be even better vs combo as they can combine discard with counters, and then prison on top of that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Zirath: Well, in that case, Thrun would indeed have more viable synergy than PrimeTime would, as Silverheart provides a whopping 16-power when paired with Thrun. Again, since a lot of this deck is based around synergy, one card may not be right for one list, but right for another.

@ Ayotte: Liliana of the Veil, when paired with additional discard, absolutely wrecks fast combo if on the play (which, ya'know: they most likely will not be for that extra card and chance to go lethal Turn 1). The ability to keep them from recovering is crucial for GB to win.

[Greenpoe]

Two words:

Nether Void

Resolve Nether Void, or cheat into play via Rector, and any stack-based combo deck immediately dies. At that point the only thing you need to worry about is their out: Cranial them naming Wipe Away, see if if they have like Chain of Vapor or whatnot, and go from there. It's almost impossible for stack-based combo to beat Nether Void, and it makes Omniscience's life a living hell, too, although they can get out of it a lot easier.

Rector as I have it set up right now is actually surprisingly good vs combo, but the various BUG lists should, theoretically, be even better vs combo as they can combine discard with counters, and then prison on top of that.

Isn't Nether Void just too slow? It'll usually be coming out turn 4-5, by which point ANT could just drop a few Rituals or LED, get Ad Nauseam and win. Reanimator will just EOT Entomb and Reanimate (with Force/Daze backup). S&T can will drop Omniscience/Griselbrand/Emrakul on turn 2-3 (and occasionally turn 1-with counter backup). Nether Void won't really help against this stuff! I mean obviously you've got discard, but they've got counters. You've got Nether Void, but they just win before that's relevant (and have hate after it comes out). Little/minimal pressure= combo decks are happy. G1 is going to be a loss most of the time vs most of the combo decks, so any hate that's specifically for combo needs to be good enough to win G2 and G3.

[Arianrhod]

Keep in mind that we run tutors and acceleration. For example, vs Bobby's Doomsday deck, I had the following sequence in g3:

Bayou, Explorer, pass.
Phyrexian Tower, sac Explorer for Plains + Forest. Bayou untapped, BB floating. B floating, Cabal Therapy. Cast Rector, 0 floating, sac it to flashback Cabal Therapy, fetching Nether Void. Therapy names Dark Ritual, hitting 3. Pass.

That's t2. Now, obviously that's a nut high, but getting Void out on t3 is actually quite common, and should be eminently possible given that we have Therapies and Extirpates to annoy combo with in the first turn or two. Remember the Hooks and Needles. You needle them early game, then you lay them low with a right hook that they have a hard time recovering from.

I mean yeah, sometimes they go Petal, Tomb, Show and Tell with Force backup and you just die. Or they lead off with Leyline of Sanctity. Or they go land, spirit guide, spirit guide, cascade, hypergenesis, Emrakul, Progenitus, Akroma's Memorial, and you just die.

That's the price we pay for not playing Force of Will. Sometimes combo just wins. For everything else, there's Nether Void.

[litenkatt]

Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks. My meta is full of them and I don't know what to do.. (playing rector)

Against reanimator, belcher, storm, dream halls(this shit crushed me totaly yday) I scoop game 1 right away. No chance of winning what so ever. Game 2 & 3 its still really hard.

I have 12 cards in my board against reanimater and I still lose somehow. (4extirpate, 3 duress, 1 Cranial extraction, 1 Ooze, 1 Humility, 2 O-ring (for s&t). If I have extirpates, he has show and tell. If I got o-rings, he has reanimate. If I land humility, he eventually bounces it and plays ***ing griselbrand (why isnt this card banned yet?!) and draws half his deck and counters everything I do. If I succesfully cast an Ooze and have it enter the battlefield, he entombs for Crippling Fatigue. Yeah, that's right. Duress/therapy doesn't do too much niether, buys me some time but never enough seems like

Sorry but im kinda in a bad mood right now and I don't have anyone nearby to show out my anger.

[slikwilly]

Anyone planning on going to the GP this weekend? There are scheduled Legacy events on Friday and Saturday which I'm planning on playing in. And just bought a set of Deathrite Shaman (which hopefully get here before the weekend) which I'm going to get signed since Argyle is going to be there.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

*hugs litenkatt*

It's gonna be ok, alright? Maybe someday Wizards will once again realize how truly degenerate non-interactive decks are for any metagame.

[Zirath]

@ Zirath: Well, in that case, Thrun would indeed have more viable synergy than PrimeTime would, as Silverheart provides a whopping 16-power when paired with Thrun. Again, since a lot of this deck is based around synergy, one card may not be right for one list, but right for another.

@ Ayotte: Liliana of the Veil, when paired with additional discard, absolutely wrecks fast combo if on the play (which, ya'know: they most likely will not be for that extra card and chance to go lethal Turn 1). The ability to keep them from recovering is crucial for GB to win.

True but Primeval Titan is still unfortunately underwhelming in this format. Only very specific versions of Nic Fit can really utilize it. Thrun has the benefit of stonewalling almost all the big threats in the format.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Fair enough.

[slikwilly]

The meta is in the process of shifting, hard. Show and Tell was almost completely gone, for one. That in and of itself opens up a ton of sideboard space for me. Also, Deathrite Shaman is the real deal, and he is enabling a large number of decks that couldn't exist beforehand. There were several Jund decks in the room, as well as a lot of Deathrite Junk (the finals between Eli and Komar was a Junk mirror). Now, the Deathrite Junk decks are designed to do the following sequence:

t1 Deathrite
t2 Liliana of the Veil, +1 until ultimate
t3-6 Disrupt/play Knight of the Reliquary
t6/7 Liliana ult, punch with KotR ftw.

This represents a few problems for us. Deathrite, as per Scavenging Ooze, can be an enormous pain in the dick. If there is any one card that might make us adopt more traditional spot removal, it's this guy. Planeswalkers can be an inordinate amount of trouble if they land early, and a t2 Liliana every game is not a fun thing, especially since this deck in particular is designed with her ultimate in mind. This isn't a deck that sits there and diddles her to "control the board." It is entirely focused on ulting her. Now, I didn't play vs this deck with Rector, so I can't say how that matchup is. Rector has Sigarda, which I think the Deathrite Junk deck just loses to. However, having 4 Deathrite Shamans means bad things for Rector-the-card, which could be a problem. It's hard to say. I'm not sure how worried we need to be about the Deathrite decks, but they are the future of the meta. We need to figure out where we stand in relation to them now and make the necessary changes before they are absolutely everywhere.


I'm strongly considering moving to a Shaman deck. 1) I'm a little tired of playing RectorFit, 2) Shaman is a serious problem for Rector triggers, 3) I've got pretty much everything I need for it. I'm booked for GP Denver and want a couple options for that. If Shaman decks look like a big part of the meta at that point in time I don't think I want to be on the Rector plan (though it's a long way away still).

Of course RUG reasserted itself somewhat at SCG this weekend, so who knows.

[slikwilly]

It's gonna be ok, alright? Maybe someday Wizards will once again realize how truly degenerate non-interactive decks are for any metagame.

<soapbox>
Considering they more or less don't design with Legacy in mind, this seems unlikely. Omni is totally fine in standard because how the heck can you get it into play? Outside of Legacy it's just a Johnny card. In Legacy it's bad news. Besides, I really don't want a format that's just smashing creatures together. I like that we have crazy things like Nic Fit and High Tide and Doomsday and S&T and Storm and Belcher (well, maybe not Belcher). The diversity of Legacy is a big reason it's awesome (IMHO) and getting rid of combo would get rid of a lot of that. It stinks when we're paired with it, but the prevalence of RUG at least keeps it down to a more reasonable level (thank you Daze/Pierce/FoW). When something in Legacy makes me feel like I'm playing in Black Summer again, then it will be a sad day (though I kinda liked Black Summer because I was early on the Necro plan back then and got lots of easy wins ;)

We've got better hate for a lot of things than ever (RIP, Thalia, etc, etc) so I think WotC is doing fine. Believe me, I curse as much as anyone everytime I lose to Belcher on T0 but that's the price to pay to be able to play in a format as diverse as Legacy.
</soapbox>

[EpicLevelCommoner]

True: I'd rather have a Permission-Combo-Other format rather an Aggro/Tempo Format. But I'd rather the combo decks still have to interact with their opponent even on the play . . . so maybe not a direct hit, but an indirect hit in the form of banning Lotus Petal, LED, and Spirit Guides?

EDIT: Also, concerning the Shaman, I have trouble believing he's any more of threat than Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, or Dryad Arbor, yet I have no trouble understanding the threat of a turn 2 walker (whether a JMS vis Solands into Signet/Talisman or a manadork into Veil). My question then is: how did this deck deal with manadorks originally, and what makes Deathrite Shaman different from other manadorks?

[Ayotte]

In both combo matches that I played last Saturday, I never got to 4 mana to cast the extractions that I had in my hand, which means I wouldn't have been casting Nether Void either.

I agree that combo is necessary for a healthy format. I don't like playing combo, as I like to interact, but I think the checks and balances between combo, control, and aggro/tempo keep the format healthy.

[Viridia]

To be fair, the only thing you need to beat combo, is knowing how to.
Hitting with your therapy 90%+, extracting the right targets, doing it when it's the best time is extremely important.
I think that's why people lose to combo (aside from the T0 kills ofcourse, we can't do much against those) ANT, TES, DDFT, S&T, High Tide etc. are all beatable, if you just execute the first 1-2 turns well.

I've played combo for a long time, so i know exactly what to do against them, but anyone can learn it, if you take the time to understand the decks.

[Viridia]

EDIT: Also, concerning the Shaman, I have trouble believing he's any more of threat than Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, or Dryad Arbor, yet I have no trouble understanding the threat of a turn 2 walker (whether a JMS vis Solands into Signet/Talisman or a manadork into Veil). My question then is: how did this deck deal with manadorks originally, and what makes Deathrite Shaman different from other manadorks?

Because he can Exile stuff from graveyards?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Because he can Exile stuff from graveyards?

>_> ok, let me rephrase that a little better:

What does Shaman do that other manadorks can't in terms of ramping into a 3 CMC Walker?

Which, now that I think about it, your answer does explain that much: Shaman isn't dead late or mid game like other manadorks, so even if they do answer the Walker, you still have control of life and graveyard.

Still: what we could do to things like Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise should still apply to Deathrite Shaman, and most of the things Deathrite Shaman enables should also be enabled by Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise.

[slikwilly]

Still: what we could do to things like Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise should still apply to Deathrite Shaman, and most of the things Deathrite Shaman enables should also be enabled by Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise.

I think you're too focused on his ramp. He also keeps goyf a reasonable size and mongoose off threshhold. Can keep lavamancer off. Stones reanimator. Probably even helps a little against High Tide since you can reduce their recursion. I don't think any of his abilities by themselves is all that, but cumulatively, he's pretty good.

(I think they've had a lot of discussion on Shaman over on The Rock thread. Probably better to go there for a more detailed look.)

[TheArchitect]

The big concern with deathright shaman is that he exiles rector in response to the trigger, exile therapies, exiles ewit targets, etc. He is a 1 drop scavaging ooze that makes mana instead of costing mana and is played as a 4 of not a 1 of.

[Oiolosse]

[QUOTE=litenkatt;684114]Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks....QUOTE]

I've just started playing the deck and I haven't tested this but since you play RectorFit maybe Side in Decree of Silence?


EDIT: haha, just thought about that corner case game where it's ueber late game grinding and you're witnessing this over and over. So unnecessary but fun sometimes.

[Ryno]

That all make sense?

That was perfect. I couldn't have asked for better explanations. Thanks very much.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think you're too focused on his ramp. He also keeps goyf a reasonable size and mongoose off threshhold. Can keep lavamancer off. Stones reanimator. Probably even helps a little against High Tide since you can reduce their recursion. I don't think any of his abilities by themselves is all that, but cumulatively, he's pretty good.

(I think they've had a lot of discussion on Shaman over on The Rock thread. Probably better to go there for a more detailed look.)

I was referring to the turn 2 Liliana followed by disruprtion plan a previous poster mentioned. Granted grave hate is amazing, but that has little to do with effectively disrupting an opponent in most matchups.

However I'm well aware that he is indeed potent and more than the sum of his abilities.

[XdeckX]

[QUOTE=litenkatt;684114]Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks....QUOTE]

I've just started playing the deck and I haven't tested this but since you play RectorFit maybe Side in Decree of Silence?


EDIT: haha, just thought about that corner case game where it's ueber late game grinding and you're witnessing this over and over. So unnecessary but fun sometimes.

If you play RectorFit there is no reason not to run Nether Void as it outclasses Decree of Silence by a great deal. It's even possible to hardcast is.

I'm prepping for a tournament next sunday. As of yet I have no idea what the meta is going to be like but I'm in the mood for angry mountains and want to test my recently acquired Bonfire of the Damned. On the other hand I still have my recent result with Viridia's OmniscienceFit in the back of my mind. Not sure. Why does the deck I love playing most come with so many viable builds? ;)

Deathrite Shaman is indeed a pain. I was lucky last time I faced it that my opponent didnt really know how to handle Academy Rector. Luckily Rock-style decks are not that common over here. But then again anything is possible. Even Zoo has been making an appearance lately.

[litenkatt]

@For you who are currently playing Viridia's omni-rector list

How good is Faith's Fetters in this list?
Is 2x Eternal Witness needed? Perhaps 1x might work just as well?
Is it possible to put in some Counter magic?

[Viridia]

The Fetters is an emergency thing when you really really need to answer a planeswalker or anything right away.
I think 2x Witness is needed, i've never played with less and often had 1 in the mid-game getting something and dieing and the other getting stuff back in the late-game.
It might be possible to fit in some countermagic, but it'll be really hard. You basically tap out every turn, but i suppose you could run sideboard negates orso?

[Arianrhod]

IMO, 2x Witness is the minimum acceptable number for any build of Nic Fit. If you're on the Nightmare plan, you want 2 Witnesses to enable degeneracy there. If you're not, you're probably running Volrath's Stronghold, which is fine, but what if it gets Wasted and you already used your Witness? Etc. I've always been comfortable with two -- I tried upping it to 3 once, and it didn't work well at all.

Also, Brian Sondag tweeted me back, and he was in fact on ScapeWish, so there's a 26th place SCG finish for that version.

Also, as far as the combo deck discussion goes, the stone-cold worst combo matchup for any Nic Fit variety is Hypergenesis, and it's -not- close. I'd say that the list from top-down would look as follows:

Hypergenesis
Reanimator
Belcher
Hive Mind
Sneak and Show
TES
OmniTell
ANT
High Tide

Interesting and noteworthy that 5 of those are Show and Tell decks. But regardless.

I wouldn't feel too bad about losing to reanimator. It's a really shitty matchup for exactly the reasons you stated -- they attack on multiple angles, and usually you have the wrong answer card in hand for their line of play. Extirpate vs Show and Tell or Humility vs Entomb/Exhume. All of the other combo decks are much more linear, or, if they're flexible, they're slower to make up for it. IE, Sneak/Show. They can go the Sneak plan if they're worried about Angel of Despair or Humility or w/e, but if they go the Sneak plan, they're going to be much slower, and thus vulnerable to Cranial Extraction effects.

IMO High Tide is the easiest combo deck for us to beat, but that might be because I have one locally and I've HAD to learn how to play vs it. /Shrug.

Litenkatt -- if your meta is really saturated with Reanimator, try a 4x Leyline plan, alongside your traditional hate of the Cranial Extraction/Memoricide pair. That FORCES them to go on the Show and Tell plan, which is obviously still a thing, but it allows you to focus on that angle. Yeah, they can bounce the Leyline, but they don't usually have that many bounce spells (2-3 is usual), so if they have one opening hand, that's just shit luck. if you start with Leyline in play, call Show and Tell on your Therapy, and then mold your game plan around what they have. It depends on their list whether you attack their deck via creature or spell -- if they're running a lot of 1-of creatures instead of like 4x Griselbrand, you probably Cranial their Show and Tells, then their bounce spell of choice. If they're on 4x Griselbrand.dec, Cranialing GB will make it harder for them to actually stick a fatty, let alone protect it. They can draw all the Show and Tells they want if they can't put anything into play with it. Also, at the point at which you have a Leyline in play, Zenith out Ooze/Deathrite Shaman. That way if they draw bounce for Leyline, they have another layer that they have to fight through. It isn't just as simple as solving the Leyline.

Beating all combo decks with Nic Fit involve concentric circles of prison-hate. You don't stop when you have a lock piece out. You don't stop when you've Cranialed them and have a lock piece out. You just keep building, and building, and making their life more and more miserable until you have a veritable Alcatraz built up. THEN you might worry about actually killing them. But you make damn sure they can't win, first.

[Cire_dk]

@Arianrhod and other scapewish players.

How good /necessary is Virtue's Ruin been for you in the SB? I might want to buy the card but I am not sure if it is very usefull to own the card.

Looking forward to your reactions

[Arianrhod]

Virtue's Ruin serves a very important purpose: it's a sweeper that kills Gaddock Teeg. That's actually the whole reason I run Ruin alongside Damnation, rather than just Damnation by itself. Teeg is a common threat to Scapewish, because it stops Scapeshift (and GSZ). Ergo, he must die. You could run like Pyroclasm or Firespout, but then the offending deck will just give it pro-red with Mother of Runes, and you're out of luck. Some Maverick decks have adopted Revoker, so you aren't guaranteed your Deeds in that matchup. If your Deeds are shut down, then you have exactly two ways to kill Teeg: active Valakut, and BW->Virtue's Ruin. Otherwise, you're kold. The other option is that you could run Infest, which has the upside of killing Revoker as well -- but the problem there is that Infest doesn't also kill Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Progenitus, and so on. Also, if there is any kind of equipment attached to Teeg, Infest won't kill him. Furthermore, double black can be really hard to hit effectively when vs a Teeg deck, since most Teeg decks are also Wasteland decks, and they may have Vindicate or Sinkhole for further mana screwing. Making your mana costs as simple as you can, with as few double-costs as you can, will reward you in the long run.

[Cire_dk]

Virtue's Ruin serves a very important purpose: it's a sweeper that kills Gaddock Teeg. That's actually the whole reason I run Ruin alongside Damnation, rather than just Damnation by itself. Teeg is a common threat to Scapewish, because it stops Scapeshift (and GSZ). Ergo, he must die. You could run like Pyroclasm or Firespout, but then the offending deck will just give it pro-red with Mother of Runes, and you're out of luck. Some Maverick decks have adopted Revoker, so you aren't guaranteed your Deeds in that matchup. If your Deeds are shut down, then you have exactly two ways to kill Teeg: active Valakut, and BW->Virtue's Ruin. Otherwise, you're kold. The other option is that you could run Infest, which has the upside of killing Revoker as well -- but the problem there is that Infest doesn't also kill Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Progenitus, and so on. Also, if there is any kind of equipment attached to Teeg, Infest won't kill him. Furthermore, double black can be really hard to hit effectively when vs a Teeg deck, since most Teeg decks are also Wasteland decks, and they may have Vindicate or Sinkhole for further mana screwing. Making your mana costs as simple as you can, with as few double-costs as you can, will reward you in the long run.

Thanks for your explanation. Now we also have abrupt decay to deal with Teeg from the wishboard. Would this not free up one slot in the SB?

[Arianrhod]

Thanks for your explanation. Now we also have abrupt decay to deal with Teeg from the wishboard. Would this not free up one slot in the SB?

2 problems: Decay is an instant, so you can't Wish for it; and they'll still just give Teeg pro-whichever with Mom, or shroud via Safekeeper. Decay's "can't be countered" clause doesn't have anything to say about protections, and loses that fight.

[Cire_dk]

2 problems: Decay is an instant, so you can't Wish for it; and they'll still just give Teeg pro-whichever with Mom, or shroud via Safekeeper. Decay's "can't be countered" clause doesn't have anything to say about protections, and loses that fight.

:eek: Forgot about that. I will orther virtue's ruin immediately :smile: Thanks for your help

[Cire_dk]

http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51918/archived-video-11312-nelc-at-jupiter-games

Link to watch the Scapewish games talked about before in this link.
Have fun

first video start at 3.27.08
top 8 start at 0.12

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Out of curiosity, how often do all these combo decks go off on turns 1, 2, or 3? The Living Wishboard seems solid if they don't win by then.

[Arianrhod]

They go off earlier in game one, but a well-aimed Therapy can slow them down substantially. It's fair to expect a turn 2-5 (unlikely to almost certain) window in g1, then something like turn 4-X in g2 and 3.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks Arianrhod: one more question before I head off to the daily grind.

If I do not know my meta at all and I want to use Cabal Therapy T1 on the play, what do I name to maximize the potency against an unknown deck? I'm thinking either Lotus Petal or Brainstorm, but that could very well be very wrong.

[Arianrhod]

Brainstorm is very right. Think about it this way: Blind names on t1 need to be things that are reasons to keep a hand. Blue players are NOTORIOUS for keeping shit hands and then leaning on Brainstorm. Top is another good blind call for the same reason, but Brainstorm sees a wider range of play. If you know that your opponent isn't on a Brainstorm deck, then you probably want to call something in his deck that is a reason to keep a hand. Let's say Deadguy as an example. Deadguy is known to be a BW Stoneforge deck. So, I'd blind call Stoneforge Mystic because it's a reason to keep a hand. If you don't know what you're up against at all, Brainstorm is always the best blind call -- again, it's in the most decks statistically, and it's a reason to keep a hand.

[Ayotte]

Brainstorm is very right. Think about it this way: Blind names on t1 need to be things that are reasons to keep a hand. Blue players are NOTORIOUS for keeping shit hands and then leaning on Brainstorm. Top is another good blind call for the same reason, but Brainstorm sees a wider range of play. If you know that your opponent isn't on a Brainstorm deck, then you probably want to call something in his deck that is a reason to keep a hand. Let's say Deadguy as an example. Deadguy is known to be a BW Stoneforge deck. So, I'd blind call Stoneforge Mystic because it's a reason to keep a hand. If you don't know what you're up against at all, Brainstorm is always the best blind call -- again, it's in the most decks statistically, and it's a reason to keep a hand.

I play against the one high tide player in my city every week, and my turn 1 therapies are always on high tide or time spiral. Are you saying that it's better to name brainstorm against him? I've noticed that I often miss the therapy because he kept a hand with a bunch of cantrips, but it still seems weird for me to not name high tide when I'm playing against a high tide deck.

[Holly]

Hes probably not keeping a hand just because he has a High Tide in it and if you see he has some hand with 1 or even 2 of it, he's not going to use them t1/t2 so you should get another shot of hitting it with cabal therapy (flashback).

[Ayotte]

Hes probably not keeping a hand just because he has a High Tide in it and if you see he has some hand with 1 or even 2 of it, he's not going to use them t1/t2 so you should get another shot of hitting it with cabal therapy (flashback).

Yes but taking a high tide from his hand will have a larger effect than taking a cantrip, since cantrips are pretty redundant in that deck.

The question is, which is greater:

X * Y, where X is the benefit of taking a high tide and Y is the chance of him having a high tide in his opening hand.
or
A * B, where A is the benefit of taking a brainstorm and B is the chance of him having a brainstorm in his opening hand.

I believe it is obvious that X>A and B>Y, but the real question is, which product is greater?

[Arianrhod]

I play against the one high tide player in my city every week, and my turn 1 therapies are always on high tide or time spiral. Are you saying that it's better to name brainstorm against him? I've noticed that I often miss the therapy because he kept a hand with a bunch of cantrips, but it still seems weird for me to not name high tide when I'm playing against a high tide deck.

Eh. Things change when you know what your opponent is on. ELC had asked about blind therapies.

If you know your opponent is on High Tide, and you are:

On the play in g1. You name Brainstorm. Brainstorm will mess up any future Therapies, and future Therapies is your only hope of beating him g1.
On the draw in g1. You Therapy, he Brainstorms. Obviously he's hidden anything important to his combo, like a High Tide or a Time Spiral. Merchant Scroll is your best name in this scenario, followed by Cunning Wish or Turnabout.
On the draw in g1. He's tapped out from a Ponder. You Therapy. He doesn't have the ability to tuck with Brainstorm up, so you call High Tide. High Tide is what's necessary to make his combo go quickly. If he doesn't have one, you have at least another turn or two, where you can hopefully flashback your Therapy.
On the play in g2/3. You name Time Spiral. High Tide players traditionally sideboard out 1x High Tide (to Cunning Wish for) because they're scared of Surgical/Extirpate. As such, Time Spiral is a much more attractive name because it still cripples them when you Extirpate it, it's still a reason to keep a hand, and they're more likely to have one in hand (it's still a 4-of in their deck).
On the draw in g2/3. You Therapy, he Brainstorms. Again, he's hidden anything important. I still like the Merchant Scroll name here, but if you've already done this song and dance, mix it up a little and either call Ponder or Turnabout.
On the draw in g2/3. He's tapped out from a Ponder. You Therapy. You still name Time Spiral here.

Special case: If you're trying to resolve something devastating, like a Cranial Extraction or a Nether Void, and they are:
Tapped out, you name Force of Will.
Not tapped out, you name Flusterstorm (if Extraction) or Pierce (if Void/other enchantment-based hate).

Also, always remember that Therapy -> Brainstorm in resp. -> Extirpate on Brainstorm is a free Hymn to Tourach. It strips their most powerful cantrip, and it forces them to shuffle away their two best cards (that they had hidden with Brainstorm). Very powerful trick.

Priority Extirpate targets in descending order of importance: Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder
Priority Cranial Extraction targets in descending order of importance: Time Spiral, High Tide, Cunning Wish

If you have the ability to Extirpate Time Spiral, Cunning Wish, or High Tide, by all means take it. But that really only happens when you hit a Therapy. The above priorities are assuming that you can't take one of those "Big Three."

Hope that helps =)

[Ayotte]

That's great. Thank you. I might just print that out and bring it to the store this week :smile:

[Qweerios]

Also, as far as the combo deck discussion goes, the stone-cold worst combo matchup for any Nic Fit variety is Hypergenesis, and it's -not- close. I'd say that the list from top-down would look as follows:

Hypergenesis
Reanimator
Belcher
Hive Mind
Sneak and Show
TES
OmniTell
ANT
High Tide


I disagree with this. I changed from BG Nic Fit to BUG Fit when the meta switched from Maverick/RUG to Sneak Show/Reanimator/RUG/Maverick (AKA: the Griselbrand era) and had very positive results against Hypergenesis, Reanimator, Sneak Show, OmniTell, and High Tide. The combo decks that I didn't do so well against were the faster ones such as Belcher and ANT because you don't always get a chance to interact with them. Boarding 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Negate, and 2 Extirpate against most combo decks is almost a transformational sideboard where you have enough disruption and answers to constantly keep your opponent in check when coupled with Therapy, Witness, GSZ, Jace, and Lily.

On a different subject, I have recently picked up a pair of Rectors and my blue duals are all used up by my Waterfalls (RUGb Cascade) deck so I intend on building Rector Fit and give Recurring Nightmare another try. The recent additions of Armada Wurm, Rest in Peace, and the coveted Sigarda has me sold. From all the discussions we've had over the past few months, it is obvious that Rector Fit has a different game plan than BUG Fit where ramp plays a bigger role since the deck tries to achieve a prison-like state. For example, in Rector Fit, discard and removal acts as a speed bump for your opponent while you attempt to resolve a game-breaking enchantment and then proceed to beat your opponent down while BUG Fit has a more constant flow of answers while it attempts to finish its opponent. This notable difference arises in part because enchantments replace Planeswalkers.

Here is my first attempt at Rector Fit:


Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters

Lands (22)
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Harmonic Sliver


I don't think Rusalka, Baneslayer, and Moat belong in this deck. Rusalka is a terrible card on its own, Baneslayer isn't worth 3WW, and Moat isn't worth building around with the current card pool. I would like to avoid any non-GSZ-able creatures as much as possible. Any suggestions or cards I am missing?

[Cire_dk]

I don't think Rusalka, Baneslayer, and Moat belong in this deck. Rusalka is a terrible card on its own, Baneslayer isn't worth 3WW, and Moat isn't worth building around with the current card pool. I would like to avoid any non-GSZ-able creatures as much as possible. Any suggestions or cards I am missing?

I do not agree with this statement. Moat on its own will win many games against aggro decks. Moat makes baneslayer even better than it already is. Do not underestimate the flying/lifelink and as I have found out protection from demons has won me a game in the last big tournament. Rusalka has been discussed several times. It seems to be a love it or hate it card, but it is a great zenith sac outlet. I often found it very usefull. Rector and veteran only work well if you have sac outlets so so far Rusalka is in for me.

Of course it all comes down to personal preference. The nice thing about magic is that the only way to play it right is the fun way because so far I cannot make a living out of it :tongue:

[litenkatt]

@Qweerios

I like you deck. Having gaddock teeg/ooze and some extra discard MD increases our chance to win against unfair decks

Personally I really like Baneslayer angels/Sigarda and Moat in rector. This package is really good against all aggro decks and flyers(fliers?) is a good answer to delver and other flying creatures that might cause problems. Not to mention the lifelink from baneslayer that can be crucial against burn decks. What I don't like about baneslayer is that you can't gsz for it and it's really weak against removal.. perhaps there are some other flyers that we could play in this deck I'm gonna find out. (Maybe I just really want to Moat to work beacuse I just acquired one, and it would make me sad to already put it in the folder)

Also I'd probably cut recurring nightmare since you're not running yosei

When do you bring in the swords from your sb?

[vilnico]

Viridia, I'm blanking on names and I'm also feeling incredibly lazy today (so I'm not going to go back and find it) -- but have you tried the Scroll Rack technology? I can't remember the guy's name who suggested it -- he was also working an Omniscience version, and he had like 2x Scroll Rack in the deck to shuffle away Emrakul/Omniscience if they were drawn. I mean, dies to Deed and all, but you should never have to put them back more than once a game, what with Top and all.

That would be me I guess, see p.145 for my list.
I play only 1 Rack, virtually 2 with E.Tutor. And yes, you need to activate it only once to get rid of Omniscience. Even if you do not have it in hand, it is a great draw machine given you have some fetch on board.
However, as good as it can be, I am still wondering about shifting it for a Top, as I pack a Pattern of Rebirth as a B plan, which works whether or not you still have Omniscience in the library or not.


About Elspeth in BGw builds

Elspeth was a painful card to cut, because she's really good. However, at some point, the deck needs to function more off of internal synergies than just raw card power. Elspeth is a very powerful card, but she doesn't synergize as well as you would expect with the deck. She works well with Moat out, obviously, and her emblem makes Deed hilarious. But outside of that, she doesn't really contribute anything to the deck. Getting in a GSZ sac outlet and a backup source of ramp in the Tribe-Elders is a lot more important than having more power. We already have more power than most decks in the format. It's just a matter of smoothly accessing it.

I would never cut Elspeth. On my BGw list I used to play 2 of her, but now 1 Elspeth and 1 Sorin. The reason is not about synergies, as I do not think Nic Fit lists need *more* synergies. I mean Therapy, Veteran, Rector, Nightmare do pretty much a lot of stuff. But even with all the raw power you develop is ridiculous in front of that damn Jace TMS, since Terminus. And you don't rebuild your hand as fast as Goblin would do.
So ok PW such as Eslpeth and Sorin are not really synergic with the core list (Garruk Relentless in another story), but they compensate for the lacks of the list. I mean: they KILL Jace. I do not need any other reason to have them in my 61 MD.

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios -- Do me a favor. -Try- a pair of Baneslayers for one local event. If you still hate them, I won't give you any shit for cutting them. But trust me when I say that they are -much- more impressive in play than they look on paper, especially if you run into some poor fool running RUG or BUG Delver. I have won a disproportionate number of games on the wings of angels. At least try them.

Nightmare is fine in that deck -- you still have Tusk, Witness looping, and Armada Wurm looping to abuse with it. I do think it would be better with a Yosei, but /shrug.

As for any cards you're missing -- you have fewer creatures than I do, so you probably don't want Diabolic Intent. That's the only thing I can think of maindeck that you're missing, really. You could experiment with Trostani if you want, since you have Tusk and Wurm, but that's probably best left for a more focused list. Sideboard....it depends on your meta, honestly. What's your expected meta, and I'll tell you if you're missing anything. There's a ton of really, really random enchantments that can do work that most people don't bother to know exist.

@Vilnico -- I think that I would agree with you if Miracles was more of a thing. Around my area, it's largely died out, so I don't have as pressing of a need for the planeswalkers. If you have a lot of Miracles in your area, though, Elspeth, and to a lesser extent Sorin, are definitely still very serious contenders, since that's your primary way to keep up with the constant Terminuses and board control.

------------

I'll be taking a bit of a vacation from Nic Fit this weekend, as I'll be playing something with 0 Veteran Explorers in it at Mythic....and, oddly for me, 0 green cards in general. It'll probably end in disaster, but I feel like doing something different, so /shrug....no report from me for this weekend.

[vilnico]

@Qweerios

@Vilnico -- I think that I would agree with you if Miracles was more of a thing. Around my area, it's largely died out, so I don't have as pressing of a need for the planeswalkers. If you have a lot of Miracles in your area, though, Elspeth, and to a lesser extent Sorin, are definitely still very serious contenders, since that's your primary way to keep up with the constant Terminuses and board control.


Indeed, Miracle is a pain in the ass in Europe ^^

[Arianrhod]

Indeed, Miracle is a pain in the ass in Europe ^^

That's certainly fair then. Miracles was big around here for a while, but now it's receded to basically just those players who legitimately enjoy the deck. I think too many people got frustrated with constantly going to time.

If I end up playing Rector at the SCG Open in Baltimore in three weeks, I'll probably have a couple planeswalkers in my board just in case the SCG Open brings an influx of Miracles players from outside the immediate area. I can't fit them maindeck anymore, and I really only want them vs Miracles and maybe Stoneblade anyway.

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios

I like you deck. Having gaddock teeg/ooze and some extra discard MD increases our chance to win against unfair decks

White offers too many good GSZ targets and Teeg is the best of them. A single Teeg in a 4GSZ deck is one of the most impactful cards you can include for the most matchups. Nic Fit happens to fold to combo G1, but so does combo to Teeg.

Also I'd probably cut recurring nightmare since you're not running yosei

I initialy thought about Prime Titan as my GSZ 6drop for Stirring Wildwood, Karakas, and the Two Towers but I opted against for a few reasons:
-Prime Titan has a lackluster immediate impact compared to Wurm
-Without Brainstorm, I am afraid the manabase won't support all these nonbasics and more than one Phyrexian Tower
-Nightmare is my 9th sac outlet
-I have Rector so I might as well fetch Nightmare
-Explorer, Witness, Thragtusk, Wurm, and Harmonic Sliver are all great loopers
-I wouldn't mind running Yosei but I don't want any non-GSZ-able creatures or anything that trades 1 for 1 with StP without leaving residual value. I put consistency first and card advantage second, synergy comes after.

When do you bring in the swords from your sb?

They mostly come in against any Aggro deck and replace Teeg and Thoughtseize.


@Arianrhod

Since the printing of Thragtusk, I believe it is impossible to lose against RUG with a Nic Fit deck. A singleton Ooze and Thragtusk is enough life and body to hose the matchup. This has been confirmed to me in countless tournaments. Adding Rector and Faith's Fetters to this mix is already a boon. If anything, I would play more Thragtusks before any Baneslayers (and Baneslayer is a real pet card for me too). I find Decay and StP to be more impactful for this specific matchup as well as many other legacy decks than any Angel ever printed. I think it's important to note that I never used any Carpet of Flowers against RUG, ever, and my record against this archetype with Nic Fit is near perfect. To quote one of my opponent in the finals after having plowed through 5 RUG Decks out of 9 rounds: "This is so unfair, it feels like I am playing a Draft deck against a Legacy deck"

Concerning "silver bullet" enchantments, would you mind stating a few? I don't have any experience with the less obvious ones. For instance, what are the major benefits of Nether Void vs. Leyline of Sanctity? What about Rest in Peace vs. Leyline of the Void? As for Raking Canopy, I don't think it's good enough... Deed seems like it could do the same Job. Why no more Curse of Death's Hold? It looks like a great prison piece against any Tribal deck post-Deed. My meta contains every DtB and Established decks. There is more SnT decks than Maverick or RUG for sure, and a good amount of Tribal. Dedicated control decks are also everywhere: Lands (3 players out of aprox. 25 own it), UB Tez, Loam, Miracle, Blade Control, BUG Control, a couple of Pox and I've seen a couple of Nic Fitters out there too). The high presence of blue decks keeps the number of Combo decks in check. There are always a couple of SnT and a Reanimator or two, but Storm based decks rarely make it through.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

Since the printing of Thragtusk, I believe it is impossible to lose against RUG with a Nic Fit deck. A singleton Ooze and Thragtusk is enough life and body to hose the matchup. This has been confirmed to me in countless tournaments. Adding Rector and Faith's Fetters to this mix is already a boon. If anything, I would play more Thragtusks before any Baneslayers (and Baneslayer is a real pet card for me too). I find Decay and StP to be more impactful for this specific matchup as well as many other legacy decks than any Angel ever printed. I think it's important to note that I never used any Carpet of Flowers against RUG, ever, and my record against this archetype with Nic Fit is near perfect. To quote one of my opponent in the finals after having plowed through 5 RUG Decks out of 9 rounds: "This is so unfair, it feels like I am playing a Draft deck against a Legacy deck"

Concerning "silver bullet" enchantments, would you mind stating a few? I don't have any experience with the less obvious ones. For instance, what are the major benefits of Nether Void vs. Leyline of Sanctity? What about Rest in Peace vs. Leyline of the Void? As for Raking Canopy, I don't think it's good enough... Deed seems like it could do the same Job. Why no more Curse of Death's Hold? It looks like a great prison piece against any Tribal deck post-Deed. My meta contains every DtB and Established decks. There is more SnT decks than Maverick or RUG for sure, and a good amount of Tribal. Dedicated control decks are also everywhere: Lands (3 players out of aprox. 25 own it), UB Tez, Loam, Miracle, Blade Control, BUG Control, a couple of Pox and I've seen a couple of Nic Fitters out there too). The high presence of blue decks keeps the number of Combo decks in check. There are always a couple of SnT and a Reanimator or two, but Storm based decks rarely make it through.

/shrug. I just say what works for me. Our lists have always been very different, and I think that the fact that both options work highlights just how absurd Nic Fit in general is against RUG. I don't think it even matters what the Nic Fit deck is doing, per se -- just the fact that it's Nic Fit in general seems to be enough.

I don't even really know where to start RE enchantments. I literally have something like 5-6 pages of 1-of enchantments in my binder, so I have specific tools on hand for any matchup.

Nether Void vs Leyline of Sanctity is weird, because they don't really do the same thing, even if they both attack storm decks. Void is good vs any stack-based combo deck, and useful vs Omniscience, although it's not a cure-all there the way it is vs stack-combo. Leyline, however, is good vs decks like Burn and Pox/Deadguy, where Void does next to nothing. In the end, I tend to favor Void heavily because decks like Burn/Pox/Deadguy are already good matchups, and Void also protects itself from bounce, which Leyline can't stop. Most storm decks are so land-light that they can waste half the game just getting to the point where they can even cast their cantrips....3U for a Ponder is HARSH for a deck with like 10 lands in it.

RIP vs Leyline is awkward. I THINK that if you want one option or the other, RIP gets the nod because if you Rector into it, it Crypts everything that's already present, which is a big deal. It -does- shut off a lot of the rest of your deck, however, including future Rectors which could tutor up a Deed to sit on in case he Claims the RIP and then starts re-going off. I personally opt for neither. This can make Dredge a little questionable, but we have a strong Dredge matchup naturally anyway by the sacrificial nature of our deck. Reanimator is awkward, but g2 I'd rather be Rectoring a Humility anyway (if you live that long). Rectoring an RIP is useless because it shuts off your Therapy flashbacks, and they can still Show and Tell on you.

Canopy is better with Moat. It's obviously primarily for Miracles, but it has uses vs RUG as well. Combined with Moat, you can lock your opponent out combat. Locally, I have a Stoneblade player who has adopted Restoration Angel as well, so it's good vs him....but that's a local concern that I doubt you have to deal with. I like it vs Miracles, because they -have- to solve it before Entreating. Deed does the same thing, but between O-Ring/D-Sphere/Disenchant they can often remove one problematic permanent without too much difficulty, then they EoT Entreat and you're dead. In that light, I like having multiple lock permanents because it provides another layer that they have to fight through. That being said, I still say that the #1 target for Cranial/Memoricide is Entreat in the matchup, which then makes Raking Canopy a dead draw, but you can't rely on those spells resolving. I do think that going forward, I'm going to put more planeswalkers in my board for the Miracles matchup, which will probably come at the cost of Raking Canopy. That said, if you have an above-average Miracles count, then I'd probably advocate keeping it alongside the planeswalkers, as it has done good work for me.

Curse of Death's Hold suffers from a very serious problem: a lot of the tribal critters it wants to kill are either naturally or artificially 2/2s. Most Fish are 2/2s by default, and stuff like Elves usually has an Archdruid floating around somewhere. It can make their lives a little annoying, but I think that E.Plague is better in the slot since it comes down sooner, before the tribal deck in question has established too much of a board presence for it to do anything. Also, keep in mind that I'm on the Moat plan. If I run into Goblins, I don't care about Cursing them -- I'm just going to get Moat, and they're just going to sit there wishing they had wings. Same thing with Merfolk -- suddenly the only fish I care about at all are the Coralhelms, which actually a lot of fish decks have been cutting down on in the first place. Elves is obviously still the scariest tribal deck, but that's -definitely- a scenario where I'd suggest E.Plague instead. Curse is a very good card and definitely an option to keep in mind for the future -- especially in case some kind of Faeries deck appears, which has been fringe playable for some time now. If it ever gets the push to become a real boy, it could be a good reason to bring back the Curse...something with like Faeries of various types, Snapcaster, and Lingering Souls, for example. Right now, though, that deck doesn't exist yet, so I'm fine leaving the Curse on my page of playables.

Lands mirrors :X

So yeah -- some examples:
Chains of Mephistopheles -- only really good vs High Tide; has largely been replaced by Nether Void. HOWEVER, it does still -wreck- Glimpse decks.
Circle of Protection: Red -- burn, goblins, Progenitus
Phyrexian Arena -- Additional copies of Arena in the board can shore up the dedicated control matchups. Decks like BUG can Decay it now, which sucks, but then they'll struggle keeping up elsewhere, and if you even draw 2 cards off of an Arena, they'll have a hard time recovering.
Asceticism -- the literal boss if Stoneblade if your disease. Also good vs Maverick (regeneration for days/stops Swords and Maze of Ith), Miracles (forces them into Terminus as their only out; also, you can regenerate out of Supreme Verdict).
Humility -- Go-to vs Show and Tell. Wrecks us, but wrecks them harder. Never board it in vs anything not named Show and Tell or Reanimator (or similar bs decks). Boarding it in vs something like Maverick is a HUGE mistake, because your creatures are better than their creatures. Boarding it in vs like 12post or MUD is perfectly acceptable, just be careful about when you get it. Generally, the goal vs a deck like that is to sit with a Rector in play and an instant-speed sac outlet, like Rusalka or Tower. Then you can go beatdown until they do something stupid, at which point you grab Humility and shift gears. Watch out for Karn Liberated from MUD.
Kismet -- Sauce vs Sneak Attack. Also useful vs any Storm deck or Elf combo, since LEDs/Petals/Moxes have to tap to make mana, and Elves need to have their guys untapped for Heritage Druid. It's not a lock vs these decks like it is vs Sneak Attack, but it can buy you precious time. It's never really -bad-....but it's also only situationally -good-.
Presence of the Master -- got any enchantress players locally you want to troll? I do, and it's hilarious. Their ONLY out is to let all their shit get countered and then resolve a Replenish.
Conversion -- this has some issues. My favorite use of it is vs Blood Moon decks, like Imperial Painter. This is a layering trick. When Moon and Conversion are both in play, a dependency system overrides the timestamp system. Conversion relies on Moon being active, so Moon is applied first. AKA: all non-basic lands are Plains, not Mountains. I'm not going to defend this as being great, but if you have an issue with Dragon Stompy or Imperial Painter, this is where you want to be. As awkward at that is.

And so on. I don't haul many of these out very often -- most of the ones I use commonly can be seen in my various sideboards, although some of them, like Asceticism, are meta-dependent. Six months ago, when Stoneblade was huge, Asceticism almost never left my sideboard. Now, though, it hasn't seen the light of play in a few months. But it's also always worth remembering. I'll check through my binder when I get home and see if there are any outstanding selections that I missed...I'm sure there are, but I can't remember every card I own when I'm at work, sadly =(

[lambert101]

@Arianrhod

Just started playing scapeWish and had a few questions for you.

1.) Why the change from 1 Wood Elves to 1 Tribe Elder? Is it because the Elder can be GSZ at 2?

2.) How important are the Toughtseizes in the board? Currently I only have Duress?

3.) What are some general sideboarding strategies?

I believe we have common friends in JC and Steve.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

Just started playing scapeWish and had a few questions for you.

1.) Why the change from 1 Wood Elves to 1 Tribe Elder? Is it because the Elder can be GSZ at 2?

2.) How important are the Toughtseizes in the board? Currently I only have Duress?

3.) What are some general sideboarding strategies?

I believe we have common friends in JC and Steve.

Yup, we do.

1) Pretty much, yeah. Elder also brings a very slight edge in the Dredge matchup, since you can Zenith him and he self-sacs to kill Bridges (and get you closer to combo-kill land). They're functionally the same card, although I still like Wood Elves a bit better since the land comes into play untapped (and it can fetch duals). Having the Zenith@2 is situationally good, though.

2) Uh....questionably. They're primarily for the combo matchup, so Duress is probably fine. However, Thoughtseize does have a few advantages. With Thoughtseize, you can BW -> TS for any card in their hand. Corner, of course, but corner cases add up really quickly in Nic Fit. More relevant is if you run into Show and Tell. You want to be able to take their dude in hand, if they have, let's say, 2x Show and 1x Griselbrand. Obv. taking a Show won't do anything, so Duress is very sad in that instance. Also, considering that the deck doesn't run fetches, the 2 life from Thoughtseize is inconsequential. Most legacy decks do 2-4 damage a game at least with fetchlands, so Thoughtseize just "balances the scales," so to speak. So.....Duress will work, but if you plan on sticking with the deck longterm, I'd say it'd be wise to invest in Thoughtseizes.

3) Due to the nature of the wishboard, sideboarding is minimal. Sometimes you board in a few wish targets, just to improve your maindeck if you have dead cards. Sometimes, it's really obvious -- if you're vs High Tide, you swap 3 Deeds for 3 REBs, for example. The Thoughtseizes are a weird situation. They come in and stay in vs combo decks. Otherwise, they usually only come in on the play. Think of them like black Dazes. They're good on the play, but shit on the draw. Usually, I use a shaving style of boarding with Scapewish. There are rarely cards that are just straight up bad, which is both a good and bad thing. 1 Huntmaster frequently gets peeled out, sometimes an Explorer comes out if the opponent has a lot of basics....sometimes 1 Deed, etc. Put it this way, these are the cards that are sacrosanct and are almost never cut:

2x Veteran Explorer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Wood Elves
1x Eternal Witness
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk

3x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift

3x Sensei's Divining Top

I would never drop below those numbers. One exception: if you're playing vs Miracles, it's usually wise to board out all of the Burning Wishes, and board in all of the targets. The targets are higher CMCs (frequently 4), and are thus much harder to CB.

Hope that helps. If you have any more questions, just ask and I'll respond as I'm able =)

[vilnico]

Quick question on BGr Scapeshift version:
Has anyone considered playing PW in that version, in addition to Primeval Titan ?
By PW I mean particularly Garruk (Lorwyn), and Koth.

I mean, Koth ultimate seems to fit as a nice be plan if Scapeshift were somehow to be ruined.
But the question is, is there a need for such a B plan ? Are the aggro (Huntmaster) good enough for that purpose ?

[Arianrhod]

Quick question on BGr Scapeshift version:
Has anyone considered playing PW in that version, in addition to Primeval Titan ?
By PW I mean particularly Garruk (Lorwyn), and Koth.

I mean, Koth ultimate seems to fit as a nice be plan if Scapeshift were somehow to be ruined.
But the question is, is there a need for such a B plan ? Are the aggro (Huntmaster) good enough for that purpose ?

Big problem there: space. ScapeWish is actually ludicrously tight. Louis asked me last night what he could cut for a pair of Abrupt Decays main, and it was with great reservations that I told him one of the ramp creatures (Wood Elves/Sakura-Tribe) and one of the Huntmasters. I personally prefer those cards and believe that they are right for the deck as a whole, but there is literally nothing else to cut. I don't know where you could fit planeswalkers in. Koth would likely get the nod over Garruk, although Garruk Primal Hunter might be better than either of them.

Personally, I don't believe that there is a need for the planeswalker plan in Scapewish, though. Its aggro plan is actually a -lot- stronger than it really seems like it should be, and it is almost impossible to shut down the Valakut win. The deck can get rid of almost any obstacle that is stopping it from Scapeshifting off. Teeg? Virtue's Ruin. Leyline of Sanctity? Maelstrom Pulse. Aven Mindcensor? Let me count the ways. And so on. The best you can do is slow down the Valakut kill. You can't stop it. And if it's been slowed down, or the deck just isn't drawing into Scapeshifts or Wishes, your aggro plan is more than capable of carrying a game. Like, against U/R Delver I actually board OUT the Scapeshift kill and just go full retard with the aggro plan. That deck can't beat Thragtusk, it can't beat Huntmaster, and it can't beat Eternal Witness for any of the above. It can Price of Progress you if you Scapeshift into a pile of mountains. That's obviously an extreme corner case, as nobody is even playing that deck anymore, but the point stands. 2 Witness, 3 Huntmaster, 2 Thragtusk, and a Primeval Titan is a very serious beatdown package, composed of threats that legacy as a whole is very ill-designed to fight.

[lambert101]

@ Arianrhod
Thank you for the help.

I also like the idea of cutting a Wood Elves and the third Huntmaster for a pair of Decays.

[Kanti]

I don't think cutting ramp from the Scapewish deck is a good idea at all. I gotta say that having at least 3 Elders/Elves is necessary as you always want to see 1 in your opening game, sometimes two. Cutting a Huntmaster is probably alright, I cut 1 from the main to shave the deck down to 60 cards and haven't really looked back.

With that said, has anyone else tested Persecute over a Seize? Or an Overmaster? I have been really happy with the Overmaster vs U-decks honestly, since we all know what happens when Scapeshift resolves.

[fireiced]

With that said, has anyone else tested Persecute over a Seize? Or an Overmaster? I have been really happy with the Overmaster vs U-decks honestly, since we all know what happens when Scapeshift resolves.

With a FLOOD LOAD of u/w miracles and esper blade in my meta, I have swapped off 1 stomping ground off Arianhod's list to a Boseiju, Who Shelters All and it is my primary tutor target for primeval titan

[EpicLevelCommoner]

updated Dig Fit List
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

[Amon Amarth]

@Arianrhod: I don't remember seeing any info on why the Bonfires were added and how they performed. Could you elaborate a bit?

[eq.firemind]

Just throwing idea (sorry if this was discussed earlier, this thread grows too fast =)): how about Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience in Nic Fit with Diabolic Intent to tutor it?

Fastest kill:
Turn 0: Leyline
Turn 1: land, Exploer
Turn 2: land, Phyrexian Tower, sac Explorer, Helm, activate Helm

You can keep it BG or splash into any 3rd color, excessive copies can be fed to Liliana of the Veil or fixed by Brainstorm and Jace (u splash) and Top (which you play anyway).

Leyline itself shits on Reanimator, Dredge and recursion cards (like Life from the Loam or Academy Ruins), helps versus Past in Flames and keeps Knight of the Reliquary in check.
On the bad side, it does almost nothing versus Miracles and Stoneblade... So, what do you think?

[litenkatt]

@eq.firemind

Here is a list that won a tournament with the leyline/helm combo: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/36498

[Cire_dk]

With a FLOOD LOAD of u/w miracles and esper blade in my meta, I have swapped off 1 stomping ground off Arianhod's list to a Boseiju, Who Shelters All and it is my primary tutor target for primeval titan

I like the idea but because it comes into play tapped it will be very susceptable to wasteland. As far as I understood the extra stomping ground gives you a better chance to resolve scapeshift succesfully.

@ Kanti I also like the other options like persecute and overmaster but it is difficult to find space. The third huntmaster has been good for me. I have the feeling that otherwise I do not see it often enough. Although I love abrubt decay I am not sure if it is better than Huntmaster MB. SB would be nice but what could I cut?

[Cybey]

@Arianrhod: I don't remember seeing any info on why the Bonfires were added and how they performed. Could you elaborate a bit?
I was wondering about this as well actually. I've been toying around with your ScapeWish list, but the Bonfires tend to get stuck in my hand.
I do however agree that they can be amazing sweepers.

[Arianrhod]

@Bonfire -- There's definitely the risk of awkward keeps where they end up stuck in your hand. However, if you keep any hand that does not have a Bonfire in it, your deck is immediately better. The purpose of the Bonfires:

-) Replaced Maelstrom Pulse. What does Pulse do? Kills a dude or a planeswalker, rarely kills an Enchantment or Artifact. Bonfire kills all dudes, still kills a planeswalker, and can dome somebody for lethal if you've already been trucking along (or gets them within easy Valakut range)

-) Improves the Tribal matchups, especially Elves. Merfolk is largely a joke, but Goblins and Elves can both be very serious threats. Bonfire serves to smooth these matchups out a bit.

-) Counters Entreat the Angels. They EoT Entreat, you EoT give them a Bonfire. Done, sorted.

-) Improves your aggro plan. I touched this earlier, but let's put it this way. Say you have a Thragtusk and a Huntmaster+token. You have like 12 mana, which is not uncommon in a ramp deck that has no fetchlands. You rip Bonfire, nuke your opponent for 11, and then swing with the team against his now non-existent field for lethal, in one-shot. This is the extreme example, but Bonfire improves your aggro plan by acting, essentially, as an Overrun. It's one-sided Wrath at absolute worst.

Bonfire has been unequivocally amazing for me. There are sometimes the awkward situations where they end up in hand, but again: ramp deck that runs 0 fetchlands. You can just hard-cast the damn things if you have to. Like, 6R is perfectly acceptable to Bolt them and everything they have in play. Not "the nut," but still fine.

@Kanti -- I like Overmaster as a card, but I don't think it's necessary, really. I tend to adopt a Honey Badger mentality with Nic Fit in general, but Scapewish in particular. They have a cuonterspell? Okay. Do they have another one? Or another one? How about now? Nic Fit, and especially Scapewish, is SO threat dense that blue decks literally can't keep up well enough. You have too many must-counters, and you run Witness on top of that, with 4 GSZ on top of THAT. You countered my Scapeshift? Okay, how about when I recast it next turn? Or when I cast this Primeval Titan and threaten to Valakut you that way. Or when I Burning Wish for god-only-knows-what. Tsunami. Boom.

And so on. Plus, you have Therapy, which you can usually have one laying around to Flashback before you Scapeshift. Furthermore, even though the Thoughtseizes are meant to be boarded in, don't forget that you can Burning Wish for them, as well, which serves almost the same function as Overmaster. If your blue opponent makes it to the point where you want to Scapeshift and they have -that- many counters in hand still, they deserve it. And if they do, they don't have a clock, which means you'll just keep trying until they eventually succumb to the relentless assault of threats.

[Eatatjoes]

Has anyone tried out new frontiers or collective voyage as a 1 or a 2 of in the scapewish builds? Also, is there any possible way to fit a few fetchlands into the scapewish list? Sensei's tops have been super mediocre with so few shuffle effects.

[Qweerios]

While playtesting with Rector Fit I came to the following conclusions:

-Sigarda is the most solid win-con I have ever played with in Nic Fit hands down;

-Teeg is the lock piece that this deck needs to make so many unfavorable matchups into even-to-favorable ones;

-Sakura-Tribe Elder is weak. Flashing it back to Therapy is a poor play and Rampant Growth doesn't meet Legacy's standards. I wouldn't play more than 1, and that's already a stretch... I would rather play more Thoughtseize/disruption that would allow me to ramp and shore up my worst matchups than to passively force ramp;

-Armada Wurm is fine for now but there is still room for improvement on the 6CMC end;

-Recurring Nightmare is still underwhelming. Having the card more readily availlable still doesn't make it any better than it is. It requires something worthwhile to recurr, something worth sacrificing, and absolutely no reponses from your opponent. I don't want to draw this card unless I am already winning. Recurring Nightmare is too situational and a textbook definition of a win-more card (unless you combo and win straight up). Whenever I abused it, I felt like I was playing High Tide after the first Time Spiral...

With that said, whatever happened to Debtors' Knell? It seems bomby enough for a Rector target, it has a low enough CMC to be realisticaly cast in games where it is relevant, and it has awesome synergy with Phyrexian Tower, Thragtusk, Witness, Armada Wurm, Innocent Blood and Deed.

Here is my current list:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Innocent Blood
2 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Debtors' Knell

Lands (22)
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Swords to Plowshares


I am thinking that perhaps Pulse or Decay might be better than StP in the SB.

[fireiced]

I like the idea but because it comes into play tapped it will be very susceptable to wasteland. As far as I understood the extra stomping ground gives you a better chance to resolve scapeshift succesfully.


I dunt meet/see miracles playing wasteland in my meta actually other than the odd dust bowl

[Claymore]

Qweerios,

The list you have is obscenely close to my current Moat-less Rector fit, literally the only difference being removal spell choices, Debtors Knell, and your extra discard in place of some additional ramp. I think its like a 5 card difference. A few notes on my tournaments from Friday and Saturday:
-Teeg is definitely good. Ran him mainboard a few months ago and never looked back. A must have for game 1 of Countertop and similar decks, combo, and otherwise an x1 speed bump against aggro.
-It needs a backup ramp engine. This was the Sakura for Arianhod. I myself was running Viridian Emissary so that you could still get value out of Tower or Cabals. I liked it but felt bad playing it in legacy, so right now I am running x2 Deathrite Shaman in place of those emissaries, since a late shaman is much better than late elf. He also has utility of anti-KotR and otherwise okay gravehate such he can replace Ooze in your mainboard.
-The deck is light on sweepers and board control. I ran x3 Deed and x2 Pulse and found myself needing additional removal when I realized mav-style aggro matchups were my weakness. I would run Pulse over Vindicate/STP, especially with Knell. There are no permanents we are afraid of to run a 1 for 1 removal like Vindicate that Pulse wouldnt handle. Ive also added x2 Abrupt Decay and have enjoyed it okay.
-You're correct, it needs more hand control. I found x6 to be a good median, enough to be relevant early and not too much to be drawing discard when you're facing down a freshly top decked KotR. x8 might be good too, idk
-Rusalka is a necessary evil, sadly. There are many games where i would have lost without that tutorable sac outlet. Otherwise you only have what, 6-8 effects to kill your Rector or explorer. Keep in mind it plays very very well with Knell and gives you an instant speed sac outlet as a hedge against STP.
-I like debtors knell. This creature-light version of Rector can't sustain Recurring Nightmare which I also begrudgingly accepted to be a win more card, and Knell is definitely a great bomb since it grabs opponent's business. Gives you great value to fetch in aggro matchups when your board is clear, basically the Phyrexian Arena for aggro. Will test soon.
-Armada Wurm is about the best card now for the 6cc beatdown slot, unless you want Primeval Titan. I put him in over Grave Titan and begrudgingly liked it.
-I've seen game situations where baneslayer would be good, but the deck is somewhat tight.

[litenkatt]

@Qweerios

I've noticed that you're not running diabolic intent. Why? It does everything u want to in this deck.. and now its even better with the debrtors' knell.(really interesting card btw, gotta try it out! Could work against reanimator!).

Don't like Recurring Nightmare niether. It's crazy good if you get the yosei lock with it but that will only happen against fair decks and you win against them anyways so..

[Qweerios]

@Litenkatt,

I don't play Diabolic Intent because the spell has a detrimental additional cost. Without Rector, Intent is a 1 for 2, and if your opponent grabs as many lands as you from Explorer, you've just lost on the card trade (not always on board state but that's another story).

@Claymore,

Would you mind explaining how the deck needs a backup ramp engine? What is wrong with 1 land drop per turn if you have more disruption? I firmly believe that actively stalling the board via disruption is much more potent than passively accelerating your manabase. If you have trouble making your land drops, I suggest playing more lands instead of basic land ramp. Sakura is fine as a 1-of because it virtually increases your land count from 22 to 27 by giving you the option of transforming a GSZ into a CiPT basic at the cost of 3 mana. I think it is worst than a Wall of Blossom in that case to be honest.

I don't think I want to replace Ooze with Deathrite any time soon for Nic Fit (and I play with Deathrites a lot lately too). Anything below 4 CMC shouldn't be a serious consideration to advance your board state in Nic Fit because of Deed, unless the card has a serious immediate impact on the matchup at hand (AKA: Ooze and Teeg). Deathrite is also sub-par GY hate when GY hate is what you need, it has summoning sickness and cannot exile more than 1 card. Having multiples still doesn't make it a replacement for Ooze.

It is true that the deck is more concentrated on threats than sweepers compared to other Nic Fit lists but I disagree that it is "sweeper light". If anything, it has more virtual access to sweepers and plays more "side removal" than the BUG Fit lists I have played before. I've played with 4 Deeds only for aggro matchups before and my aggro plan was very strong. However, those Nic Fit decks had better stalling tactics and recursion.

I chose Vindicate over Pulse because I didn't want to pack an Acidic Slime and wanted an out to troublesome Lands such as Lab, Ruins, Bowl, Volrath, Manlands etc... The "multiples" clause on Pulse has always been a corner case for me. It's a plus, but it's not something I need to bank on most of the time while having the ability to get rid of lands is.

I am still on the fence concerning Rusalka. One of the big weaknesses of Nic Fit is all the built-in card disadvantage brought about by sacrificing cards for uncertainties like Explorer and Therapy. The only sac outlets I want to consider are the ones that:

1) can be used independantly of another card, and
2) outset inherent card disadvantage when combined

For these reasons I would play more cards like Innocent Blood before considering something like Rusalka. To make this clear, I think that when it comes to the point where you have to play Rusalka to get value out of Rector, it's time to cut Rector from your deck (unless of course you can just win on the spot with that interaction).

[Cire_dk]

I dunt meet/see miracles playing wasteland in my meta actually other than the odd dust bowl

I agree but there are a lot of other match ups where you have no extra use for it. Stomping ground can be wasted as well but it provides the extra mpountain to scapeshift. But I still like the idea and will try it out so thanks for your suggestion.

[fireiced]

I agree but there are a lot of other match ups where you have no extra use for it. Stomping ground can be wasted as well but it provides the extra mpountain to scapeshift. But I still like the idea and will try it out so thanks for your suggestion.

Besides, against decks where they decide to waste you to oblivion [RUG and Maverick] you already shit on RUG and maverick has to contend with GSZ for hunts and thragtusks + that Wish->Virtue's Ruin or Scapshift win

If boseiju gets wasted then it is 1 less wasteland to harass u when u got for scapeshift win.

Thou I must stress that you do not play the boseiju when U-decks are not a large percentage of the meta, me meta loves their Jace MS and FoWs with U-based decks making at least 65% of the meta :confused:

[litenkatt]

Rule of Law

Isn't this card better or just as good as Nether Void?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Against Storm and High Tide, yes. But Nether Void also gives other combo decks a speed bump, namely Show and Tell and Reanimator, which only needs one spell to resolve to give you hell.

[TheArchitect]

Against Storm and High Tide, yes.

I disagree, Nethervoid completely shuts those decks down. They need to get 4 lands out till they can even start cantriping for an out. Curse of exhaustion/rule of law, only slow them down slightly. They can still cantrip/tutor on each players turn and then just bounce your enchantment usually after 1-2 turns of searching. With Rule of Law out, High tide will just EoT cunning wish (with as little as 3 islands) for bounce and and then bounce on their turn and win. With nether void out, they need 6 lands to even cast cunning wish, and then it will still cost 4 to bounce on their turn, so you still have at least one more turn if they are on the time spiral plan (as apposed to reset).

Nethervoid also helps against omniscience and dredge even, while rule of law just means they can only dread return one thing, or play one giant legendary creature.

Rule of law, or even better curse of exhaustion, is never really better than nether void.

[Claymore]

It needs a backup engine because the majority of your removal is all over 3cc, especially Deed, your important spells are all high CC, the deck runs 22 lands (not land a turn quantity) and you simply can't rely on drawing Explorers and GSZ for all of your accel. You need consistency. I've run this variety of the deck for many months and it loses most often if you can not advance your board due to mana constraints, especially in the face of aggro. It runs much better for me with 10 accel cards compared to 8...I'm just trying to figure out what 9 and 10 are. The go-to accel is almost always Explorer, but the extra consistency of having accel in your opening hand makes the deck run smoother. Same reason you're running more discard.

I am def in favor of the additional proactive disruption, but find its easier to claw the deck out of bad spots when I am more capable of getting mana accel and fixing.

Even with an explorer, the deck absolutely needs to be able to kill it. Rusalka gives the deck x5 enablers to that end. The iconic Explorer/Therapy or Tower combo as you've found is not enough. I go back and forth over Bloods or Fleshbag Marauder, but the sweet spot to me has been being able to fetch out a sac engine. I may still try putting in Blood again since it is a good card, but for now I've chosen to use its slots towards more powerful removal. Maybe swap for my x2 Decay, or run split removal...hmm...

Overall, the card Rusalka itself is not strong, but serves as the best tutorable ignition key to this deck.

As far as Vindicate vs Pulse, I've never found a land to do anything to me that the rest of the deck can't handle, whereas you can get killed by Walkers or KotR before getting the fatty plan online.

Agree on Shaman. My opinion of Ooze is that it's meh mainboard (great sideboard) since the deck can handle most any grave strategy, but Shaman theoretically gets gravehate (snipe Loams) and mana accel/fixing to the mainboard in a single utility creature. Still needs testing, however. It can die to Deed, yes, but largely it serves to push out Deed or removal to slow down the opponent, at which time you probably drew Explorer and you just roll out. Or at least thats my plan.

This version of the deck can be very powerful but needs to be built with extra consistency measures to be legitimate over the course of a tournament.

[kabards]

This was my tournament report for November 10, 2012. I think 40-50+ attendees 6 Rounds battling out for a playset of Jace, the Mindsculptor a piece of Savannah, Scavenging Ooze etc.
This was the list i used.

Punishing Nic-Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Emental Blast
1 Slaughter Games
1 Nether Void <-- just experimenting, i cut off my 1pc Slaughter Games for this

====================================================================

Round 1 - P. Nic-Fit vs BGW Rock with Deathrite Shaman [ 2-0 ]

Game 1 - Got an early Veteran Explorer, 2nd turn Huntmaster of the Fells. All creatures he play was always remove by my spells [ Abrupt Decay, Recurring Punishing Fire ]
Game 2 - Got to control his creatures early, because i don't have Veteran Explorer opening hand. Sensei's Divining Top wins the game together with Broodmate Dragon.

No Sideboard for this deck.

Round 2 - P. Nic-Fit vs UR Delver [ 2-0 ]
Game 1 - I got a 2 Green Zenith's in opening hand, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Abrupt, a 2 Fetch Land and a Duals that i can't remember. Got an early Veteran Explorer but countered in my 1st turn, he plays 1st turn Goblin Guide. 2nd turn able to resolve a Green Sun's Zenith for 1 getting my another Veteran Explorer. During my opponents 2nd turn he just casted a Chain Lightning. 3rd Turn i got a top deck Phyrexian Tower and cast my 2nd Zenith for 5 getting Thragtusk and the rest was history, when i got a top deck Zenith i just go for a gain life dude.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Grave Titan <--- to slow for my opponent. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Nether Void <--- i just trying this if i can draw this card lol. :laugh:

Round 3 - P. Nic-Fit vs RUG Delver [ 1-1-1 ] Draw
Game 1 - I just remember that i control the board and big dude like Thragtusk + Broodmate wins the game.
Game 2 - Loss via beat down Delver, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose. My only removal was Punishing Fire and Pernicious Deed that was countered.
Game 3 - A very long game, i just defend all through out then when i already established the board last 5 turn called out. As i've remembered i already have a Broodmate Dragon in play.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Garruk Relentless. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast.

Round 4 - P. Nic-Fit vs Death and Taxes [ 0 - 2 ] Loss
Game 1 - Mulligan for 4 and i lost.
Game 2 - Mulligan for 5 a bad draw. and got slowed by Rishadan Port.

No sideboard.

Round 5 - P. Nic-Fit vs UW Miracles [ 0 - 2 ] Loss. I just give the win and talked about that if he will go to top8 i we would split his prize, but still we test to play.
Game 1 - Early Mulligan for 5. Loss the game via early Entreat the Angels.
Game 2 - Win early beat down 2nd Turn Huntmaster backed by a Pyroblast. Zenith my Kitchen Finks and the rest was history.
Game 3 - Win if our game was continued last 5 turn call, an early Carpet of Flowers, hit an early Pernicious Deed but in this game i got a bunch of misplays like i already have Abrupt Decay in hand i didn't destroy his Counterbalance in play early knowing that he already had a Sensei's Divining Top in play, that's why my Huntmaster was countered by Jace the Mindsculptor on top of his deck but still i played my Huntmaster again putting it to the top of my deck using Volrath's Stronghold. lol :laugh:

[ Side Out ] : 3 Cabal Therapy, 3 Punishing Fire, 3 Veteran Explorer, 1 Grave Titan. [ Side In ] 3 Hymn To Tourach, 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Slaughter Games.

Round 6 - P. Nic-Fit vs RUG Delver [ 2 - 0 ] Win
Game 1 - Early Veteran Explorer and a 2nd Turn Thragtusk wins the game controlled the board all through out.
Game 2 - Early Veteran Explorer a 2nd turn Carpet of Flowers, that's why i got an early Thragtusk + Broodmate Dragon in play. controlled the board again.

[ Side Out ] : 2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Garruk Relentless. [ Side In ] : 3 Carpet of Flowers, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast.

============================
Thanks for reading my short tournament report. Sorry for my english because im not that fluent :laugh: just hoping for you all to understand haha!

[eq.firemind]

What do you guys think about Sadistic Sacrament as a sideboard card versus UWx control and probably Combo to some extent?

Miracles tend to not run more than 3 Entreats, they sometimes run 3 Jaces and in lategame Sacrament for 15 cards leaves them without a way to win.
Blade Control will be happy to know that Mystics are useless, some rare decks like Land or Enchantress can be left without recursion engines or win conditions.
Modern Show and Tell decks should also suffer from early Sacrament 'cause you can take out all Emmys or all Grisels so it will be harder to find a fatty and you will know exactely what to expect. Or you can take 3 SnT so they'd need more mana to actualy do something.

The :b::b::b: cost can be a problem, especially for :r: versions of Nic Fit (they run non-:b: lands to support PFire or Angry Mountains plan).

[Cire_dk]

What do you guys think about Sadistic Sacrament as a sideboard card versus UWx control and probably Combo to some extent?

Miracles tend to not run more than 3 Entreats, they sometimes run 3 Jaces and in lategame Sacrament for 15 cards leaves them without a way to win.
Blade Control will be happy to know that Mystics are useless, some rare decks like Land or Enchantress can be left without recursion engines or win conditions.
Modern Show and Tell decks should also suffer from early Sacrament 'cause you can take out all Emmys or all Grisels so it will be harder to find a fatty and you will know exactely what to expect. Or you can take 3 SnT so they'd need more mana to actualy do something.

The :b::b::b: cost can be a problem, especially for :r: versions of Nic Fit (they run non-:b: lands to support PFire or Angry Mountains plan).

I think you already give the main reason for not playing this card yourself. 3B is just to much strain on the manabase. I would rather spend 4 mana on a slaughter games that cannot be countered. As you pointed out we want to take only a few important cards to disrupt their engine. Slaughter games makes a very good job of that. In fact imo this card is so good it is worth playing red just because of it.

@Kabards: Thanks for pm and your report. Your English is very good so no worries about it.

[XdeckX]

I agree with Cire_dk. BBB is really difficult to produce especially early in the game (where the extract effect would be best)
Slaughter Games (for R builds) and Memoricide/Cranial Extraction both serve a similar purpose while being easier to cast.

And the thought of playing SadSac with kicker is nice but when you get to 10 mana you should be winning anyway if you ask me.

[niklaas1212]

Hey so i am newer to playing nic fit, I have tested and played a little with the jund scapeshift version but thats not really my kind of game. I like the rector BWG builds as well but i was thinking of playing BUG fit. Here is my list, alot of it is the standard nic fit stuff, and I am not a big combo player, so i don't like the helm combo's and stuff, that's why i didn't like the scapeshift version. But here is my list I have played against enchantress but haven't really had the chance to test it against other decks. Let me know what you guys think. I have also been thinking about adding some counter spells to the deck but this is the base I will most likely be playing around with.

3x Jace tms

3x deed
3x top
1x diabolic intent
4x brainstorm
1x maelstrom pulse
3x green sun
4x cabal therapy

1x sakura tribe elder
2x phyrexian metamorph
2x coiling oracle
2x eternal witness
4x veteran explorer
2x thragtusk
1x consecrated sphinx
1x primeval titan
1x simic sky swallower

3x verdant catacombs
3x mist rainforest
1x phyrexian tower
1x volrath's stronghold
3x bayou
2x tropical's
2x underground seas
3x forest
3x island
2x swamp

Haven't made a side Board yet for the deck but that depends alot on the meta

[kabards]

Hey so i am newer to playing nic fit, I have tested and played a little with the jund scapeshift version but thats not really my kind of game. I like the rector BWG builds as well but i was thinking of playing BUG fit. Here is my list, alot of it is the standard nic fit stuff, and I am not a big combo player, so i don't like the helm combo's and stuff, that's why i didn't like the scapeshift version. But here is my list I have played against enchantress but haven't really had the chance to test it against other decks. Let me know what you guys think. I have also been thinking about adding some counter spells to the deck but this is the base I will most likely be playing around with.

3x Jace tms

3x deed
3x top
1x diabolic intent
4x brainstorm
1x maelstrom pulse
3x green sun
4x cabal therapy

1x sakura tribe elder
2x phyrexian metamorph
2x coiling oracle
2x eternal witness
4x veteran explorer
2x thragtusk
1x consecrated sphinx
1x primeval titan
1x simic sky swallower

3x verdant catacombs
3x mist rainforest
1x phyrexian tower
1x volrath's stronghold
3x bayou
2x tropical's
2x underground seas
3x forest
3x island
2x swamp

Haven't made a side Board yet for the deck but that depends alot on the meta

For my own opinion it's better if you put a few trusty spot removal, you will only rely on Pernicious Deed and a piece of Maelstrom Pulse i think you must add more a little bit :wink: Your build also focused on purely ramp, in this case you must think "what if i can't ramp more?" try Kitchen Finks / Thrun, the Last Troll.

[kabards]

What do you guys think about Sadistic Sacrament as a sideboard card versus UWx control and probably Combo to some extent?

Miracles tend to not run more than 3 Entreats, they sometimes run 3 Jaces and in lategame Sacrament for 15 cards leaves them without a way to win.
Blade Control will be happy to know that Mystics are useless, some rare decks like Land or Enchantress can be left without recursion engines or win conditions.
Modern Show and Tell decks should also suffer from early Sacrament 'cause you can take out all Emmys or all Grisels so it will be harder to find a fatty and you will know exactely what to expect. Or you can take 3 SnT so they'd need more mana to actualy do something.

The :b::b::b: cost can be a problem, especially for :r: versions of Nic Fit (they run non-:b: lands to support PFire or Angry Mountains plan).

Btw, what is your Nic-Fit build? BGR Nic-Fit is best on Blue Variant Decks.

[TiMeWaLk]

Punishing Nic-Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Grave Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Emental Blast
1 Slaughter Games
1 Nether Void <-- just experimenting, i cut off my 1pc Slaughter Games for this



I really like Nic-Fit with punishing fire (PF) because it answers quite nicely one of the problem of the deck: the planeswalkers.

You do not draw any conclusion from your tournament. Are you perfectly satisfied with the list?

I would love comments on a lot of you slots:

- 2 Huntmaster? It is redundant with the PFs. I would cut one for Eternal witness which is really good (I would play 2 of them)

- Is Finks necessary when you already have Thragtusk?

- Grave Titan is the only creature that you cannot find with zenith. Why not something else? Ermit?

- Why Garruk other a 3rd liliana? She is better in the bad match-ups.

- 1 diabolic intent? How was this singleton for you?

TW

[kabards]

I really like Nic-Fit with punishing fire (PF) because it answers quite nicely one of the problem of the deck: the planeswalkers.

You do not draw any conclusion from your tournament. Are you perfectly satisfied with the list?

I would love comments on a lot of you slots:

- 2 Huntmaster? It is redundant with the PFs. I would cut one for Eternal witness which is really good (I would play 2 of them)

- Is Finks necessary when you already have Thragtusk?

- Grave Titan is the only creature that you cannot find with zenith. Why not something else? Ermit?

- Why Garruk other a 3rd liliana? She is better in the bad match-ups.

- 1 diabolic intent? How was this singleton for you?

TW

This would be my answers to your questions:

Huntmaster of the Fells - It is one of the best slot for 4cc zenitable creature, you already gain 2 life you still have a 2/2 token.
Kitchen Finks - Before i had 2 Eternal Witness in my deck but if you have only 4 mana, Eternal Witness is not a good creature to zenith for 3 if you had no good card in your graveyard. So i cut one of it, Kitchen finks will be a good defence also for offense in my opinion.
Grave Titan - This coming December 2, 2012 we would have a big tournament again, it would be change to Thrun, the Last Troll.
Garruk, the Relentless - a good chumpblocker, token maker, 3cc below toughness creature removal, also good against, Jace, the Mindsculptor.
Diabolic Intent - such a good card for me a tutor, sacrifice engine.

and about a problem vs planeswalker, it is not that though to deal with planeswalker, i have an access to Maelstrom Pulse, if you had a creature in play you could kill their defender by means of abrupt decay that can't be countered.

--------------

I'm thinking that it would be better that even if you had only few lands in play you can also win by means of your trusty creatures like, Kitchen Finks, Huntmaster of the Fells, Thrun, the Last Troll and Scavenging Ooze.

[TiMeWaLk]

I agree with all your comments. However, I just propose improvements.

Huntmaster is a good card, no question here. I just saw a list with 0 witness. I thought it could better to run one, other another creature. Maybe not the Huntmaster but Finks for example. Of course, if your metagame requires a lot of spot removals & blockers, Finks + Huntmaster are just insanely good.

Why is Garruk good against Jace? (I agree he is better than Liliana)

Thank you for the quick answers.

TW

[unemployer]

Good job on the games kabards! Let's get that one on Dec 2!
I think you also need to include the fact that 2 Witness' is a bit bad since we run 4 Punishing Fires (in your case 3). Our list both runs 2 Pulses and 4 P.Fire, so planeswalkers was never much an issue. Also, the Grave Titan was a fail card. I saw your matches, never saw it in play. Thrun is good but there maybe other options for this 1 creature slot.
To add on this, Huntmaster is an awesome card. Whenever I cast it, I get a small smirk in my face. It adds a lot of pressure to your opponents. You get 2 creatures, you gain 2 lives and they are forced to cast a spell unless they want him turn into a 4/4 Wolf ^_^

Anyway, I have been on a slump on the Jund Nic-Fit so I am moving it to the BGW Version. Thought it feels different due to the Rector line-up but I kinda like the feel of a new color. Feel free to provide your comments. Thanks!

3 Sensei
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen FInks
3 Academy Rector
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Armada Wurm

1 Faith's Fetters
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Vindicate
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Raking Canopy
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Flexible Slot <No Idea what to put yet

[Qweerios]

@unemployer,

I think that list folds to combo, and that's not a good plan. I suggest a single Teeg and a 4th GSZ at the very least.

Also, Thragtusk rendered Finks obsolete in Nic Fit IMO.

[Cire_dk]

Arianrhod Latest Lists: Rector page 153:

@unemployer: After testing the rector version in a few tournaments I still think Arianrhods Rector list is close to perfect becaus it has all the synergy it needs. Nethervoid form the SB helps but Combo will always be a bad match up.

For his list check his signature with a direct link. For example on page 155

[TheArchitect]

Arianrhod Latest Lists: Rector page 153:

@unemployer: After testing the rector version in a few tournaments I still think Arianrhods Rector list is close to perfect becaus it has all the synergy it needs. Nethervoid form the SB helps but Combo will always be a bad match up.

For his list check his signature with a direct link. For example on page 155

I have to agree with this.

The moatless rector lists with armada wurm and more single target removal might be decent though. However, you should drop thrun and finks though, Thrag and sigarda are just better. I actually really like garruk relentless (or prime hunter is good too) in that list. He helps with the Miracles match up a lot.

[unemployer]

Arianrhod Latest Lists: Rector page 153:

@unemployer: After testing the rector version in a few tournaments I still think Arianrhods Rector list is close to perfect becaus it has all the synergy it needs. Nethervoid form the SB helps but Combo will always be a bad match up.

For his list check his signature with a direct link. For example on page 155
Thanks for the insights but what do you suggest to fight combo? More hand removals? Memoricide? Cranial?
I've been wondering on his list for a while. How come it has more creatures and less removals (1Pulse 1 Vindicate 3 Deed)? Is ramping a problem? It has a lot of big CC creatures 6 (5-6-cc creatures).

[XdeckX]

With the inclusion of Moat most creature matchups get allot better. After Moat hits play winning is just a matter of finding one of the high quality finishers the deck has. Pulse, vindicate and deed also provide allot of time.
Due to threat density the control matchups is also pretty good.
That basically leaves combo which is a rather difficult mathup especially preboard. Cabal therapy is used to stall the opponent to the point where you can sac a rector and find Nether Void. But getting enough time to actually do that is though. And both cranial and memoricide are alternate routes to stopping combo.

The speed of combo decks is what makes it so difficult. You have only a number of turns (if youre lucky) to stall/stop the enemy

I play a rector build which is the exact 61 mainboard as Arianhrod. I just play a leyline of sanctity and 2 thoughtseize instead of abrubt decay and deathrite shaman. (also due to card availability at the moment)

[Cire_dk]

Thanks for the insights but what do you suggest to fight combo? More hand removals? Memoricide? Cranial?
I've been wondering on his list for a while. How come it has more creatures and less removals (1Pulse 1 Vindicate 3 Deed)? Is ramping a problem? It has a lot of big CC creatures 6 (5-6-cc creatures).

You have extirpate, Cranial and Memerocide to help you against combo. Rector into nether void is also very good. Since we are playing a ramp deck ramping should not be a problem. Combo will be a difficult match up for Nic Fot but it is not an auto loss. Every deck has its limitations and bad match ups but Nic Fit is fun to play and has a lot of good match ups.
As stated before it is a deck that takes a long time to play well. I am only at the beginning of this journey but the synergy and options make it a blast to play. I played many different decks Zoo, Goblin, BUG control, UW Miracles, but none off them has beaten the fun I have playing Nic Fit :smile:
And if you get bored, there are at least 5 versions to try out. So plenty of ways to satisfy my restless mind and my urge to buy new cards once in a while. :tongue:

[unemployer]

You have extirpate, Cranial and Memerocide to help you against combo. Rector into nether void is also very good. Since we are playing a ramp deck ramping should not be a problem. Combo will be a difficult match up for Nic Fot but it is not an auto loss. Every deck has its limitations and bad match ups but Nic Fit is fun to play and has a lot of good match ups.
As stated before it is a deck that takes a long time to play well. I am only at the beginning of this journey but the synergy and options make it a blast to play. I played many different decks Zoo, Goblin, BUG control, UW Miracles, but none off them has beaten the fun I have playing Nic Fit :smile:
And if you get bored, there are at least 5 versions to try out. So plenty of ways to satisfy my restless mind and my urge to buy new cards once in a while. :tongue:
True that! When I read this thread, I immediately created my own list for Jund NicFit. It was so amazing that kabards borrowed it and he got to the top 8! Since then, we have been playing NicFit and it has been fun. I am only switching to white for variety reasons.
I will look into the list again and see the results on Dec 2.

[Qweerios]

Sleeved up Rector Fit after a monthly break of BUG Fit, feels good to be playing therapies again. Took first place at a local event with the following list:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Innocent Blood
2 Vindicate

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Debtors' Knell

Lands (22)
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Budget Nether Void)
1 Fleshbag Marauder (I don't own a Humility yet)
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate


R1: 2-1 vs. Combo Elves

G1: Thoughtseize and Therapy peels my opponent's options. I have an Explorer a Rector and a Sigarda beating in play to my opponent's 5 1/1s and flooded board. I lose to a topdecked Craterhoof Behemoth for lethal (wtf!?).

-1 Teeg, -1 Ooze, -1 Arena, -1 Faith's, -1 Debtors, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Curse, +1 Deed, +2 Pulse

G2: I blind Therapy 2 Glimpse on T1 followed by a Tower/Explorer ramp into Rector flashbacked for Curse. My opponent has a Nettle Sentinel with a Jitte on it and concedes when I GSZ for Penis Wurm.

G3: I keep a shaky hand with no interactions before T3 (terrible idea). My opponent keeps a shaky hand as well with a T1 Druid and a T2 Symbiote (missed a landrop). When I reached 3 lands I Vindicated his lone Forest and saced explorer to Tower and hardcasted Curse the following turn. He scooped to Thragtusk.

R2: 2-0 vs. Aggro Loam

G1: Deed the board and land Sigarda.

-1 Teeg, -1 Arena, -1 Faith's, -2 IoK, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Sliver +1 RiP, +1 Deed, +2 Pulse, +2 Extirpate

G2: Deed the board again and Pulse/Vindicate the threats. My opponent tries to recur enough lands for a few turns to play a Seismic Assault and deal 16 damage to the face in a single turn (I assume so) while I beat with Sigarda with a Deed on the board. Before the lethal turn, I therapy for Seismic Assault and play Rector + flashback for RiP.

R3: 2-0 vs. Dragon Stompy

G1: My opponent mulls to 6. I thoughtseize away a threat and see a flooded hand with a Gathan Raider and a Jitte. I Vindicate the threat and durdle around with Deeds and Ooze for a while. I finally nuke the board and play a Thragtusk, my opponent scoops shortly after.

-1 Teeg, -1 Arena, -2 IoK, +1 Sliver, +1 Deed, +2 Pulse

G2: T1 Trini, T2 Raiders, and T3 Rakdos Dragon from my opponent causes me to fetch basics for the first 3 turns before casting a Pulse on the Dragon. I take a swing before a T4 Explorer hits the table. Blood Moon happens (which I couldn't care less about) followed by another Dragon, then, Explorer chumps the Raider. I play a Deed and leave mana open for the next turn. I Deed for 4 getting rid of Moon, Trini, Mox, and Dragon leaving Raiders in play, so I am down to 7 life. I play an Explorer that I promptly Innocent Blood therefore sweeping the board then I play a Rector leaving Tower untapped. My opponent draws a land and passes so I Tower the Rector for Debtor's Knell EoT (Yeah!). I grab a Dragon during my upkeep play a Thragtusk, my opponent scoops once again.

R4: 2-0 vs. Miracle Walkers

G1: Long and grindy game involving a lot of durdling with Tops from both sides. My opponent failled to find a threat for what seemed to be aproximately 5 shuffles and 10+ Top activations while I tried to beat with whatever I could find (Explorer ate a Terminus at some point).

-3 Explorer, -1 Debtors', -1 Ooze, -2 Rector, -2 Therapy, -2 IB, +3 Carpet, +1 Deed, +1 Sliver, +2 Pulse, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Extirpate

G1: An early Thoughtseize answered by a Brainstorm reveals 2 Entreats and a bunch of lands. My opponent plays a top that I Fetter's, forcing it back on top. I Extirpate his Entreat, stripping the other from his hand and shuffling back the top. It is only then that I realize that my opponent is playing Miracle Walkers because all that I see are a bunch of EE, Supreme Verdicts, Terminus, and 3 Jace with 2 Elspeth as win-cons. With the Entreats gone, I play an Arena that goes unanswered for many turns. While my opponent manages to assemble CB/Top, I am getting heavily flooded. The game goes extremely long again and involves all 3 Jaces and 2 Elspeths being cast and activated for a couple of turns. I eventualy Vindicate/Pulse them away. I played about 4-5 Thragtusks (2-3 in a row) during that game with top decked GSZ (a very thin library at this point) right after he ate Terminus. In the end, I managed to grind out my opponent's deck of all its win-cons. Part of my success was due to the fact that CB/Top never found a 3 CMC flip and Witness into Vindicate/Pulse always managed to save my hide.

[Cire_dk]

@ Qweerios Gratz , Well done and thanks for the report.
Nice list by the way with some interesting choices. Anything you would change?

[lambert101]

@Arianrhod

Wanted your opinion on the following board for your rector list:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Nether Void
1 Raking Canopy
1 Humility
3 Extirpate
2 Oblivion Rings
2 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay

Trying to find a way to battle all the Liliana of the Veil and Junk decks.

[Qweerios]

@ Qweerios Gratz , Well done and thanks for the report.
Nice list by the way with some interesting choices. Anything you would change?

Not quite sure. I am not a big fan of Armada Wurm, I don't really know where he stands. Between Sigarda and Thragtusk I rarely find myself using a GSZ for the wurm. I am considering Ghave, Guru of Spores, and Grave Scarab.

[Ayotte]

Not quite sure. I am not a big fan of Armada Wurm, I don't really know where he stands. Between Sigarda and Thragtusk I rarely find myself using a GSZ for the wurm. I am considering Ghave, Guru of Spores, and Grave Scarab.

Oooh, those 2 are spicy. Let me know how they work out.

[AmishLuvah]

You might try a Wolfir Silverheart. It would increase your clock and make your 1/1 creatures into threats.

[Blastoderm]

I've been reading this thread ever since I've made Nic Fit a year ago. Before terminus was printed, I was able to consistently smash face with natural order in my build. Although I might try it again, I've been working on a pod version as it's a blast to play and pretty consistent.

One thing I want to note is that for a pod version to work, having too many toolbox creatures is just bad. Here's my list:

creatures:

4 veteran explorer
2 strangleroot geist
2 kitchen finks
2 witness

1 reveillark
1 thrun
1 academy rector
1 sun titan
1 thragtusk
1 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage
1 shriekmaw
1 bone shredder

other spells:

4 cabal therapy
3 pernicious deed
3 swords to plowshares
4 gsz
3 birthing pod
1 recurring nightmare
1 diabolic intent

lands:

2 swamp
1 plains
4 forest

4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
2 phyrexian tower

some things to point out with this build:

1. bad vs storm, decent vs show and tell (iv won 2-0 just by using bone shredder and oblivion rings from the sb)
2. basic gsz targets a standard nic fit would have: pridemage, ooze, thragtusk, witness, thrun
3. bombs/finishers: sun titan, reveillark
4. creatures that double as removal: bone shredder shriekmaw

95% of my wins is getting recurring nightmare going with thragtusk or reveillark/sun titan. It may seem "win-more" but that's basically how I win every game.
Finks and strangleroot geist may seem weak but they've helped wonders vs maverick, rug, and merfolk. They provide the 2 and 3 cmc needed to use pod as well. Killing jace has been fun when you cast a geist, sac it to tower and swing immediately.

Having no sensei's top hurts but pod is a fine replacement. No maelstrom pulse can be annoying at times when I need to kill a jace. Maybe I can find some room to put it in.

Anyways, I like this version but I also run a standard GBw build. Note that in a standard nic fit build I would not use diabolic intent or recurring nightmare.



///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I'll post my normal GBw build instead of making a new post:

4 veteran explorer
1 qasali pridemage
1 scavenging ooze
1 thragtusk
1 thrun
2 eternal witness
1 sigarda

3 pernicious deed
3 maelstrom pulse
3 sensei's divining top

4 inqusition of kozilek (I don't own thoughtseize atm, I would probably do a 3 IoK 1 seize or a 2-2 split)
3 swords to plowshares (My meta doesn't have much aggro, if it did I would surely do -1 pulse +1 swords)
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 garruk, primal hunter
1 elspeth

4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
4 forest
1 plains
2 swamp
1 phyrexian tower

[guelahpapyrus]

@Qweerios

I've been playing a build similar to yours for a few months now (replace your MD IoK with Abrupt Decay; replace Thoughtseize with Duress; replace Debtor's Knell with Recurring Nightmare) and I've also been very disappointed with Armada Wurm. One thing I found was that I wished I had a four-drop when I'd be stuck at 5 mana, staring at an empty board with a GSZ in hand. I've been in that position more than a handful of times, whether it happened because of Wasteland, lack of Veteran Explorer, whatever - I prefer having Thrun instead of a 6-drop.

While Sigarda is a replacement for Thrun in most cases, having a four-drop beater that's difficult to remove is fantastic. There are situations where I'd prefer Armada Wurm but most of the time Sigarda and Thrun can get it done. Without Thrun, I find myself wishing he or some other 4CMC beater was in the deck.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I'm considering including 1 Tarmogoyf in my B/G list, simply for a GSZ-target that gives me a clock against combo. The problem for me, after sideboard when I play a total of 10 discard spells, is that I simply cannot end the game fast enough after disrupting my opponent. So I'm considering removing 1 Scavenging Ooze and playing the singleton Tarmogoyf. This is what my list looks like (with the changes):

Lands (22)

5 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

Creatures (12)

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (23)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top-
4 Abrupt Decay

Walkers (3)

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Sideboard

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
3 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks

What do you guys think? How do you kill combo-opponents fast after disrupting them? I'm so tired of disrupting and disrupting, only to have them topdeck something useful after 5-6 turns and winning out of the blue.

[Einherjer]

Hmm this might be pretty the first time I write a post like this.. but whatever...

So... I've been thinking of building an underdog-fun-deck... and there I thought of NicFit... but I cannot, simply cannot, play without Brainstorm and Force in my 75. So I remembered Caleb playing some BUG NicFit quite a while ago... Is this BUG NicFit still viable in any way? Are there any recent lists?

Thanks for help in advance.

Greetings

[litenkatt]

Hmm this might be pretty the first time I write a post like this.. but whatever...

So... I've been thinking of building an underdog-fun-deck... and there I thought of NicFit... but I cannot, simply cannot, play without Brainstorm and Force in my 75. So I remembered Caleb playing some BUG NicFit quite a while ago... Is this BUG NicFit still viable in any way? Are there any recent lists?

Thanks for help in advance.

Greetings

Hello

Im currently playing a BUG nic fit deck w/ brainstorms, no fow though. The deck is, just like any other nic fit deck, built to destroy fair decks. However, post board I feel blue gives us better options against combo (counterspells). Also, blue gives us Jace which is huge. Jace turn 2, anyone? :)

Can't say ive tested this list enough to say how well its working, but ive done quite a few games against reanimator and ive had some success. Still hard, but doable

List:
CREATURES (8)
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
3 Pernicious Deed

SORCERIES (11)
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

INSTANTS (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay

PLANESWALKERS (4)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

LANDS (23)
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard is still work in progress

[Claymore]

I also rarely GSZ'd the Wurm in my tournament, but he helps with threat density and giving a nice fat clock that must be answered - same as Grave Titan. I do like your alternatives. Both combo very well with Debtor's Knell, probably better than Penis Wurm. Scarab is interesting, because he can instantly be sacced and dredged against a Terminus for 1cc , but he lacks staying power against Batterskull. On paper I like him better than Ghave because he can avoid popular removal (swords, terminus) for cheap with built-in recursion. Ghave can be cycled into the graveyard for 2cc with nothing else on the board, but doesn't come back as easily.

[kabards]

hope that sooner or later we all go out as a deck to beat deck. :laugh: december 2, 2012 i will be able to play again using my nic-fit i'll make a short tournament report after.

[Osmin]

Just top8'ed at 90-man event playing Arianrhod's ScapeWish build. I'll make a short report if I would remember something :) In top 8 I lost against Elves (two second turn wins). Any advices on playing against Elves?

[Cire_dk]

Just top8'ed at 90-man event playing Arianrhod's ScapeWish build. I'll make a short report if I would remember something :) In top 8 I lost against Elves (two second turn wins). Any advices on playing against Elves?


First off all congratulations on great result. I am looking forward to your report. Especially SB plan.

Thoughtseize from SB, Deed. Pulse and of course cranial therapy should give nic fit a fair chance? However combo elves can be even to fast for us.

[guelahpapyrus]

Re: Armada Wurm dislike in RectorRock Builds

2nd Thragtusk is also great.

I was underwhelmed with Scarab Shell and Ghave. There isn't a "perfect" creature for that slot right now.

[Osmin]

Here at Moscow, Russia we had a 90-man legacy tournament. I top8'ed with Arianrhod's ScapeWish build. The only difference: I wasn't able to find Virtue's Ruin and replaced it with Firespout in sideboard. And that was good decision as you would read below.

Round 1. RUG 2-0
G1: He gained game loss before I even played a land.
G2: He had a delver first turn and no other creatures. I ramped with Veteran Explorer, played some Therapies and bited Spell Pierce with Bonfire from hand. And then played final Scapeshift with 7 lands.

Round 2. Maverick 2-0
G1: I mulliganed one-lander with bayou and Explorer (of course there was badlands on the top) and kept hand without green mana, but with two lands. And hadn't seen any other land for the several turns. But opponent had only a couple of Mother of Runes and Noble Hierarchs. Finally I played lethal Scapeshift when I was at 5.
G2: Most of the turns a had only 5 lands. Opponent had several Mother of Runes, big KotRs, Rangers and so on. I played 2 Thragtusks and 2 Huntmasters. And for some unknown reason instead of flipping huntmasters for the several turns firing at him, I kept playing some spells. But I still won :)

Round 3. Jund (Confidants, Deathrite shamans, may be Tarmogoyfs) 2-0
G1&2: His Confidants and Shamans couldn’t kill me fast. And he could do nothing against lethal Scapeshift.

Round 4. Sneak&Show. 1-2
G1: Fast Sneak Attack with Emrakul and Griselbrand at the same time.
IN: +3 Pyroblast +3 Thoughtseize
OUT: -3 Pernicious Deed, -2 Bonfire, -1 Wood Elves
G2: No fast fattie, but fast Scapeshift.
G3: He played Blood Moon and my only basic land was Forest. Than he played Sneak Attack but had no creatures. I started to beat with Explorer, than with two Explorers, than with three(!) Explorers. Finally he found Emrakul and I saced all my three Explorer (yeah! more basics and Blood Moon will suck!). If I saced 6 lands, I would be able to end the game with three 1/1.

Round 5. UW with mystics (I haven’t seen any Entreats) 2-0
G1: I started with Valakut in hand and topdecked almost all mountains. First Explorer got sworded. Valakut’s triggers killed Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique, Stoneforge Mystic and finally their owner. No Scapeshift. Perhaps some damage was dealt by Explorer.
IN: +3 Pyroblast
OUT: -1 Wood Elves, -1 Sakura-Tribe Elder, -1 Veteran Explorer
G2: Again first Explorer got sworded. He started to beat me with Geist of Saint Traft. But I managed to cast Scapeshift (through Counterbalance). He sworded his own Clique. And during his turn sworded Geist’s token. Now he was at 5. I played Zenith for six (screw you, Counterbalance!), found Titan, second Valakut and mountain.

Round 6. Goblins 2-1
G1: Mountain, Lackey, Warchief, 3 Piledrivers.
G2: No first turn Lackey. Goblin horde, Pernicious Deed, Surgical Extraction and goblin horde. wish->firespout, goblin horde, wish->damnation, thragtusk, second thragtusk, goblin horde and… lethal miracle!
G3: No first turn Lackey, 2 fetches and Scapeshift with 7 lands.

Round 7. ID

Here all top 8 decided to split prizes (46 packs per player!). And than we started playing for the shiny cup.
Top 8. Elves 1-2
G1: He got slow started. I managed to kill some elves with Firespout and play lethal Scapeshift.
IN: +2 Thoughtseize
OUT: -1 Wood Elves, -1 Sakura-tribe Elder
G2&3: Both games on my second turn I wished for Firespout. And had no third turn.

Arianrhod, thank you for this awesome deck!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

I'll be taking this list to SCG Open Cincy on 2/17/2013. But before I can determine if this will be my final build, I'd like some advice from fellow Nic Fitters and Dig Fitters pertaining to this list, as well perhaps a playtest montage via MWS if any of you know any other archetypes as well as this one ^_^.

[zeagle]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

I'll be taking this list to SCG Open Cincy on 2/17/2013. But before I can determine if this will be my final build, I'd like some advice from fellow Nic Fitters and Dig Fitters pertaining to this list, as well perhaps a playtest montage via MWS if any of you know any other archetypes as well as this one ^_^.


There are some interesting choices in here. Maybe I haven't been paying attention to the BUG version of this list. Do you care to explain these choices:

Starved Rusalka

Angel of Despair
Magus of the Future
Laboratory Maniac

I feel like you are missing some creatures. At least a Scavenging Ooze, but there is probably more missing.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Starved Rusalka - Basically just there as a Zenithable sac-outlet for Veteran Explorer

Angel of Despair - Living Wish target against anything with Show and Tell in it
Magus of the Future - Turbo Draw engine with Top. Actually had Future Sight itself in the 61 slots, but took it out to trim the deck size to 60 (was not seeing any good hands at all). Living Wish target after hate/sacbag
Laboratory Maniac - Ultimate Win-Con in case flat out control doesn't get me there. Living Wish target after Magus of the Future.

EDIT: Ooze I took out, along with Arbor Elf/BoP/whatever, for Deathrite Shaman, which is like a manadork and gravehate all rolled into one.

[Arianrhod]

After almost four years of playing Magic nonstop 3+ nights a week, I'm finding myself finally experiencing burnout. As a result, I'm going to be scaling back to just going to Mythic and a local vintage tournament per month -- maybe Jupiter if I feel up to it as the day approaches. I have every intention that this break will be temporary, but my god, I need a break before I end up just quitting permanently....because if I keep pushing myself like I have been, that's exactly what will happen. I plan on still keeping tabs on this thread and offering my thoughts and advice as able, but I won't be as omnipresent as I have tried to be, for a few months anyway. Figure you all deserve to know =)

[Cire_dk]

After almost four years of playing Magic nonstop 3+ nights a week, I'm finding myself finally experiencing burnout. As a result, I'm going to be scaling back to just going to Mythic and a local vintage tournament per month -- maybe Jupiter if I feel up to it as the day approaches. I have every intention that this break will be temporary, but my god, I need a break before I end up just quitting permanently....because if I keep pushing myself like I have been, that's exactly what will happen. I plan on still keeping tabs on this thread and offering my thoughts and advice as able, but I won't be as omnipresent as I have tried to be, for a few months anyway. Figure you all deserve to know =)

I am sorry to hear you have to be scaling down. I do understand why and thanks for sharing.
Since you are one of the pillars of my Nic Fit experience I do hope to see your thoughts and comments once in a while.
I wish you all the best dealing with your withdrawal symptoms from nic fit :tongue:

Take it easy, see you around.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

After almost four years of playing Magic nonstop 3+ nights a week, I'm finding myself finally experiencing burnout. As a result, I'm going to be scaling back to just going to Mythic and a local vintage tournament per month -- maybe Jupiter if I feel up to it as the day approaches. I have every intention that this break will be temporary, but my god, I need a break before I end up just quitting permanently....because if I keep pushing myself like I have been, that's exactly what will happen. I plan on still keeping tabs on this thread and offering my thoughts and advice as able, but I won't be as omnipresent as I have tried to be, for a few months anyway. Figure you all deserve to know =)

I understand. Went through the same thing with the Fighting Game Community. Sometimes you just get sick of playing, win or lose.

Don't be a stranger, ya hear? :)

[Qweerios]

I recently attended a 1k tournament with a BUG Fit list that built with the intention of breaking the meta. The last time I went to this venue, I faced 4 RUG decks on my way to top8 along with a couple of stoneblades and a maverick. I eventually took first place beating RUG, this was with a straight BG Nic Fit list (you can probably find the report 50-100 pages back or so...). I was expecting a lot of RUG, Maverick, and Rock (Deathrite Shaman), with a healthy dose of Stoneblade and Miracles. Here is the list I built for this event:


Creatures (9)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Lands (22)
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
4 Negate


The room was filled with RUG, Miracles, and a good portion of Deathrite decks so I felt pretty good about my choices. Unfortunately for me, I ended up having rather unpredictable pairings. I don't really have the time the go into much detail about the matches so I will keep the report short and to the point.

R1: 0-2 vs. Imperial Painter

G1: I mulled until I could get 2 lands, my opponent plays a painter on blue, REBs my GSZ @1 and REBs both my lands the following turn. I get stoned to death.
G2: I mulled until I could get 1 land and drew another after there were 2 Magus of the Moon on the table. I didn't cast any spells so I got stoned again.

R2: 2-1 vs. Pox

G1: I get double hymned and double poxed into Tombstalker. vs my no lands no hand board.
G2: Explorer allows me a Lily, and a Vraska on the field which I eventualy ultimate with and kill my opponent with assassin tokens.
G3: An early Explorer grants me 5 mana and I start beating with Scarab. The scarab never goes away so my opponent eventualy crumbles

R3: 2-0 vs. Miracle Control

G1: Blind therapy on Brainstorm hits, followed by T2 therapy on jace, flashing back explorer + another therapy on Verdict. I negate the Elspeth, lay down Lily and Garruk and my opponent scoops.
G2: Landrops until 3 mana, opponent cliques, I brainstormed a Lily on top so I let him clique away my Lily in hand, play it, opponent sighs. I finally Jace my opponent with Negate backup, he scoops.

R3: 0-2 vs. Dredge

G1: He starts and mulls his entire library by T2, I lost without interacting.
G2: I empty his hand and GY by T2. I am holding a Witness to return that Spellbomb next turn and he has a Coliseum and a LED in play. He draws into Breakthrough, into triple therapy, triple moeba, Dredgers and a Faithless Looting for LED. He strips my hand and goes off again.

R4: 2-1 vs. Reanimator

G1: my opponent gets flooded and I won with a terrible hand
G2: T2 Iona kills me dead
G3: I have 2 Extirpate and a Spellbomb in my opener so I easely win from there

R5: 2-0 vs. Stoneblade??

I don't remember this round but I think I faced a Stoneblade deck at some point. I only remember breezing through R5 and R6.

R6: 2-0 vs. UW Miracle

G1: Strip my opponent's hand, play Jace, Deed Entreat, kill with Garruk and Thragtusk.
G2: Negate Entreat, Extirpate it, play Jace, kill with Vraska ultimate with Negate backup.

R7: 0-2 vs. UW Painter/Stone/LED/Phyrexian Furnace/Auriok Salvager/Orim/Scepter Combos

G1: My opponent gets a Painter and a Furnace in play, I can either play Jace and bounce the painter so that he can't stone me to death during his turn, or GSZ for Ooze and he cant go off with Salvager and LED in hand. I choose to Jace bounce and Ooze the next turn but that was the wrong call and I get combo'd next turn.

G2: I mull to 6 with a swamp a TS and a Therapy. My opponent opens with Leyline of Sanctity, I miss a landrop and get stoned before I can Decay.

The Imperial Painter and Dredge players made it to top8. My friend made it to top4 with Miracle Control after defeating a handful of Stoneblade and RUG delver decks. We all had the joy to see a 220$ missplay which consisted of not playing a Relic of Progenitus against a Dredge player with:

-6 life
-3 City of Brass in play
-5-10 cards left in his library
-Extracted Narcos and Ichorids
-4 Bridges in his GY

...and he didn't play that Relic because it would mean losing his Top to a fetch... go figure

The dredge player cast a dredger, flashed back therapies on the Relic, beat him down with tokens as he failled to find a sweeper.

On a different note, I originaly intended to bring Rector Fit to this tournament but I chose BUG because Rector + the enchantment package is really sub-par when compared to Jace and Brainstorm. I then realized that what made BGw Rector Fit so successful were not the white cards but the strong BG core and the fact that white didnt have to come into play until T3-5. Now, if you look at what made BUG so successful, you will find Jace as preemptive removal for Jace, Brainstorm, and SB counterspells (Negate) to complement discard against unfavorable matchups. What makes BUG Fit weak? Double blue for Jace and requiring a blue source early for Brainstorm. For these reasons, I went back to BG Nic Fit and threw in a Mountain and a Taiga for SB REB/Pyro, a Broodmate Dragon instead of Penis Wurm, and maybe a Huntmaster and/or Slaughter Games somewhere. Are there any other important red cards for Nic Fit that I would be missing aside from cards like Punishing Fire and Burning Wish that require a lot of deck space?

[TheArchitect]

@Qweerios: Thanks for the report, and congrats on the decent finish.

Have you had a chance to to play the scapewish list? I havent tried a conservative GB list with a small red splash, but scapeshift is the real deal.

For a GB list a red splash, I wouldnt even bother with Huntmaster. In my experience with the GBR scapewish build, hes the weakest link and usually only buys you some time till you can scapeshift. He is however, a good clock to get out against combo decks, but tarmogoyf would probably do that job better.

I'd say splash red for Broodmate, 3-5 REBs, 1-2 slaughterpacts first. And if you want to invest a bit more in red, maybe Bonfire of the damned. Its been amazing in scapewish. Even if its in your opening hand it isnt half bad.

Its most likely too cute, but I have always thought Godo+batterskull was awesome.

Also, how did Grave-Shell Scarab work out?

[Blastoderm]

@Qweerios

Slaughter games definitely seems strong. I use two Memoricide in sb and I've been quite happy with them. Punishing fire seems weak considering it requires RR to bring back and use. Abrupt decay is most likely better in this spot as this deck doesn't seem to have problems against aggro anyways. I guess it's best to avoid spells that require two mana of the chosen third color. How is Vraska? Two Primal Hunter has been so good...is another 5 mana pw too much?

Check the list in 3rd place:
http://www.mtgquebec.com/viewtopic.php?t=6783

It's a straight green black, although I don't like some cards in the maindeck (hymn,geist..lack of tops?) it does use red only for SB options (slaughter games and REB).

Even though I've always been a fan of GBw nic fit due to swords and pridemage (gsz for wickerbough was annoying due to high cost), the printing of abrupt decay has led me to consider GB and using R soley for sb and maybe a broodmate in the main.

[Qweerios]

Scapewish is the only decent Nic Fit version that I haven't sleeved up because I got rid of my Taigas and Badlands early this year. I did try it out online and I didn't like it. I really dislike the manabase and the deckbuilding constraints that come with Valakut and Scapeshift. I am also not a fan of slow unprotected combos. It really plays like a different deck than Nic Fit and doesn't prey as hard on decks like Maverick, Rock, and Miracle (which is a questionable matchup).

Scarab was fine in the SB but wasn't needed against Miracles. It might have been more useful in the Rector version because I didn't have access to Negates at the time, but in BUG, it really doesn't pull its weight.

I agree with you that Huntmaster is underwhelming. Broodmate Dragon is about the only maindeck red card I would consider for Nic Fit. Two flying blockers with 1 red mana in the cost is as good as it gets for the top of the curve, Wurm doesn't come close.

Thinking back at REB/Pyro, I wonder how can it be as good as Negate? It hits blue permanents but, aside from Jace, they havent been a problem at all. I think that if I am to splash 1 land for 4 SB counterspells, i'd rather have Negate than REB. I think it is reasonable to have 1 Tropical Island for 4 SB Negates since you won't bring them in against decks that utilize Wasteland.

Vraska is my Maelstrom Pulse #2. She isn't the most impressive, but like Liliana, you are left with something to tick and eventually re-use so it makes a difference in the long run.

[Blastoderm]

So technically you could just go GB and use blue for negates in the sb.

[litenkatt]

I'd say the GB version got much better since the printing of Abrupt Decay. The only way RUG would beat me before was an early flipped delver + 10 counterspells backup. Abrupt Decay solves that problem. Sulfuric Vortex was also somewhat a problem if they had counterspells backup. Again, Abrupt Decay shines here! There are many more benefits of this card, counterbalance etc. I'd say this card is a 4-of!


I don't like the Scapewish version niether mainly because of the lack of efficacy of top. Without fetches, its almost a dead card.. I feel that the top is soo important to nic fit and I wish there were other cards we could use that draws cards (without playing blue). Bob, Phyrexian arena, sylvan library are all good cards but they die to deed unfortunately

[Cire_dk]

I'd say the GB version got much better since the printing of Abrupt Decay. The only way RUG would beat me before was an early flipped delver + 10 counterspells backup. Abrupt Decay solves that problem. Sulfuric Vortex was also somewhat a problem if they had counterspells backup. Again, Abrupt Decay shines here! There are many more benefits of this card, counterbalance etc. I'd say this card is a 4-of!


I don't like the Scapewish version niether mainly because of the lack of efficacy of top. Without fetches, its almost a dead card.. I feel that the top is soo important to nic fit and I wish there were other cards we could use that draws cards (without playing blue). Bob, Phyrexian arena, sylvan library are all good cards but they die to deed unfortunately

TOP does have its use in scapefit. It gives you a better chance to find a card you need and with all the sac outlets you will be able to shuffle your library. Fetches are of course a nicer and more efficient way. What I liked while testing scapewish , is the fact that in stalled games the combo gets you the win.
Every version of Nic Fit has its own strength and weaknesses so playing a version you like and know is in my opinion the best version to play.
The meta is to diverse to gear up for every match up and even then we often get unexpected pairings as we can read in the different tournament reports.
So have fun and keep your wonderfull ideas coming.

[Yoric]

Sorry to hear that Arianrhod won't be at the Open in Baltimore this weekend. I will be there, bringing this list (subject to your comments/approval):

Creatures (16)
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Academy Rector
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fierce Empath
1x Eternal Witness
1x Starved Rusalka
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Grave Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Deranged Hermit

Instants / Sorceries (13)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Path to Exile
1x Skeletal Scrying

Enchantments (5)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (23)
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Scrubland
1x Temple Garden (Savannah, if I can find someone to lend it to me)
1x Wooded Foothills (Windswept Heath, see above)
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Memoricide
2x Choke
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Extirpate
2x Thoughtseize
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Qasali Pridemage


Looking at it written out like this it seems like a lot of fatties compared to the other lists, but my planeswalker isn't really a win-con. My experience playing with Recurring Nightmare is that, while it may be win-more, it ends games quickly, which can be an issue with this deck when up against Miracles or other grindy lists. As people have mentioned many times before, Yosei is a beast, and usually one timely sacrifice will lead to a concession. I have many, many hours of experience with close to this list online (-1 Rector, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Volrath's Stronghold, -1 Diabolic Intent, +2 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Go for the Throat, +1 Thrun) and made the offline changes due to paper availability (I have the cards in paper but not online).

The sideboard is a mess. I shouldn't be playing 3x Leyline of the Void, I don't think, but I haven't much actual competitive experience (I just read massive amounts of The Source / TMD, play free matches online, and watch a lot of footage) and I have a real fear of Dredge. I may switch them for 3x Krosan Grip to try to get a handle on the Miracles match-up. I don't think I can get Carpet of Flowers in time for the tournament and SCG is sold out.

Anyway, please shred the list! I have a pretty wide selection of common BG/BGw Nic Fit cards available, and can probably find other cards you mention (besides Carpet of Flowers and, unfortunately, Nether Void).

[kabards]

Sorry to hear that Arianrhod won't be at the Open in Baltimore this weekend. I will be there, bringing this list (subject to your comments/approval):

The sideboard is a mess. I shouldn't be playing 3x Leyline of the Void, I don't think, but I haven't much actual competitive experience (I just read massive amounts of The Source / TMD, play free matches online, and watch a lot of footage) and I have a real fear of Dredge. I may switch them for 3x Krosan Grip to try to get a handle on the Miracles match-up. I don't think I can get Carpet of Flowers in time for the tournament and SCG is sold out.

Anyway, please shred the list! I have a pretty wide selection of common BG/BGw Nic Fit cards available, and can probably find other cards you mention (besides Carpet of Flowers and, unfortunately, Nether Void).

maybe you should remove the Leyline of the Void, and switch it to, relic of progenitus or nihil spellbomb if your meta will be invaded of Dredge, Reanimator etc.. about the Miracle match up, increase your Abrupt Decay, you already have a Pernicious Deed so nothing to worry about it. If OmniTel / Show and Tel meta put some Oblivion Ring.

[unemployer]

@Yoric: Why that much graveyard hate? Are graveyard decks that heavy in your area? I suggest you remove the Leylines and place 1 Rest in Peace. It fights against dredge and reanimator but it also stops your rector and explorer (since they dont go to the graveyard). You can provide 2 slots for your own use like Leyline of Sanctity, O.ring, etc.
Also place 1 Nether Void or 1 Leyline of Sanctity if you are on a budget.:wink:

[Yoric]

@kabards, unemployer:

Nihil Spellbomb and Tormod's Crypt feel better to me than unilateral graveyard hate like RiP and Relic, and they can both be retrieved with Eternal Witness (unlike Relic). How about -3 Leyline of the Void, +2 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Oblivion Ring (for SnT)?

I read somewhere recently (www.reddit.com/r/spikes ?) that Krosan Grip is the real beating against CounterTop because SDT is the key piece (lets the CounterTopper search for more Counterbalances / end-the-game-even-without-Counterbalance spells), and Grip can take out Top while AD can really only hit the Counterbalance. I think some mixture of AD and KG is probably right. I have access to 2 more Abrupt Decay and 4 Krosan Grip.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less appealing Decay looks. As Yoric said, it's only really good against CounterTop, and even then we have easy access to Krosan Grip. Actually took my 2 out in my list for a 2nd Pulse and a 4th Deed.

Now if it had Split Second, then that would be gravy.

[Claymore]

It's common practice for Miracle Top to float 3cc when playing against green decks. Not the end solution simply due to needing to have a 3cc in your deck, but it is definitely something they do.

[Yoric]

It's common practice for Miracle Top to float 3cc when playing against green decks. Not the end solution simply due to needing to have a 3cc in your deck, but it is definitely something they do.

Yeah, this is what happens each time I play Miracles. I think having a split of AD and KG allows for the play of Decay on Counterbalance, let it resolve, then Grip the Top. Krosan Grip can also deal with any piece of the Leyline/RiP + Helm combo, while Decay only hits RiP.

[thra1l]

Playing a tourney tonight (probably ~10 people). We have a weird meta consisting of (lots of) Burn, U/R Delver, RUG Delver, Painter Stone, U/W Miracles, 12Post, Jund, Elves (sometimes), Dredge (rarely). I'm thinking of doing a blue splash for Hydroblast and Negate, though I could do a red splash for Slaughter Games and REB as well. Here's my list, though it is pretty weird (such as main deck Kitchen Finks, but it's for burn). This is my first time playing this deck with a splash for sideboard (I used to play BUG with Jaces and BS mainboard).

// Deck: Nic Fit (61)

// Lands 22
1 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures 13
2 Eternal Witness
2 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Kitchen Finks

// Spells 26
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
4 Negate
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide

The Negates are for Miracles, 12Post, Painter Stone. Hydroblasts are for Painter Stone, Burn, Jund, maybe RUG Delver. Carpet of Flowers, Surgical, Extirpate, Thoughtseize, and Memoricide are obvious. Kitchen Finks for extra help against burn and U/R Delver.

Some candidates for the sideboard would be Hymn, Engineered Plague, more grave hate (Nihil Spellbomb or something), and then REB and Slaughter games with a Red splash (which would replace Hydroblast and Negate).

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated, I'm willing to make some changes! :)

[TiMeWaLk]

Good evening,

I have been toying with a BGr version of Nic Fit. The reason why I chose Nic Fit is because it crushes UGr tempo decks while having decent match ups against other non combo decks. The red splash is mainly for Punishing Fire (PF) which I find very adapted to the deck. It gets rid of planeswalker which can be terrible when the opponent does not let us resolve a pulse or vindicate. On top of that, it can deal with all the small creatures in the beginning of the game.

Here is my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Thawing Glaciers

I have a lot of non-conventional things in the list such as 4 Deathrite Shaman (DS), 1 Thawing Glaciers and the absence of Pernicious Deed. I don't run deed because the deck try to kill or discard progressively what is annoying or to delay it until a "big" Green Sun Zenith (GSZ) can be casted. So far it went really good without them. Thawing Glaciers is just a recent addition which I wanted to test. Probably it is a bit too cute.

I come here to get additionnal ideas // comments before taking the deck to an event (and not only test it online). I am almost settled on the main deck but I struggle for the sideboard. What do you use to get a decent match up against combo? I have few ideas such as:

Red elemental blast
Slaughter games
More discard
Extirpate // Surginal ( coupled with discard against combo + good versus dredge )
Gaddock? (I can add a land in the SB too if necessary)
Blood Moon? (can be surprising for certain decks)

My problem is that I cannot have the same hate for Ad Nauseam combo or Show and Tell... which makes my life difficult. Any ideas?

TW

[litenkatt]

@thra1

Hello

I'd cut
-1 Primeval Titan. 1 is more than enough if you run 4 gsz.
-1 Recurring Nightmare. This is only because I personaly don't like this card in these type of decks. I would run it in a deck with Yosei. Again, not saying its the right choice to cut it but it's just what I would do. Although if you land it game 1 and get some use of it, your opponent might get bit confused and puts in lots of graveyard hate game2 and that's when you board your gy cards out :-)

Except for that Id say your list looks very stable! Perhaps 1-2 more discard MD could work

[unemployer]

My problem is that I cannot have the same hate for Ad Nauseam combo or Show and Tell... which makes my life difficult. Any ideas?

TW
Welcome to our world :) You might want to provide more hand disruption and probably play slaughter games. Other than that, I am open for other ideas

[vilnico]

Red elemental blast
Slaughter games
More discard
Extirpate // Surginal ( coupled with discard against combo + good versus dredge )
Gaddock? (I can add a land in the SB too if necessary)
Blood Moon? (can be surprising for certain decks)

My problem is that I cannot have the same hate for Ad Nauseam combo or Show and Tell... which makes my life difficult. Any ideas?


Welcome to our world :) You might want to provide more hand disruption and probably play slaughter games. Other than that, I am open for other ideas

Well Show and Tell is very sensitive to discard, but here REB is definitely your best option.
Ad Nauseam does not like heavy discard either, which should buy you enough time to GSZ a Gaddock on board. I would not necessarily sideboard a W land for that. You play GSZ, that should be fair enough. (Ok it makes you mulligan a hand with Gaddock though :/ ) I usually pack 4 Mindbreak Trap in addition to discard against Storm.

In my opinion Slaughter Game is too slow, but have not tested it.

@TW: are 4 Veteran and 4 DR Shaman too much ? I am building a BGw list with a 3-3 mix, but did not played it yet

@Arianrhod: Enjoy your MTG break !

[litenkatt]

Going to a legacy tournament next week. I assume there will be about 30ish people.

Will bring the rector version w/ moat. Still tweaking the list and I'm gonna try out Sylvan Library as an additional card engine

[sderenatore]

Hello guys,
I am new to the thread and I wanted to introduce you my rector list:

2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Thragtusk
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Eladamri's Call
1 Omniscience
2 Innocent Blood
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Moat
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Thoughtseize

SB: 1 (Garruk, the Veil-Cursed)--> not an actual sideboard card of course
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate

I have a few doubts about all the Omisciensce+Emmy story.
It actually turned in my favor games that where basically lost, bust sometimes i feel like its overkill. I am really undecided about this, also because without it that would be a totally different deck as long as i would play less discard and more board disruption.
I'd just like to hear your opinion about emmy or not emmy and what you would replace the whole package with. Also what do you think about Eladamri's Call? I often side it out but makes the whole deck smoother.
Thanks in advance, I am really curious about the opinion of more experienced players like you are guys! (also about the deck in general)

[TiMeWaLk]

@sderenatore

Having Emrakul, the Aeons Torn + Omniscience + Fierce Empath is just terrible for your opening hands and your future draws. I don't think it shines in any specific match up. I would not play such a combo. Sure it will give you wins from time to time since it is what a combo is for, but it will give you so many losses due to the amount of dead cards...

I guess the Eladamri's calls are Ok because you want to combo with Rector. However, it does not do anything on the board. These are just 2 manas spent for nothing but card quality. I would not run them because it makes the deck completely focused on the combo (which I would not play)

I am not sure about Dryad Arbor. When I was playing it, I never found it good. It was just destroying my manabase.

How is Vraska for you?

Sorry for sounding tough :)



@vilnico & unemployer

I have the same impression about Slaughter games... It looks good on paper, but as soon as I think a bit more at it I realize that:

- In the best case, I cast it on turn two with the help of Veteran + Tower. This has a very low probability to happen
- I will cast it on turn 3, which is likely to happen but implies Deathrite or Veteran + sack outlet. Turn 3 is already very late to do something against combo decks. It can be supported by some discard (can be cabal which is also a sack outlet) ... but it looks like a lot of conditions
- Turn 4 or later, that's shit.
- Removing 1 kind of card does not save us... against Ad Nauseam, they can still combo via direct Tendril, or find tendril via burning wish or use past in flammes... They have not only 1 way on winning the game.

Conclusion: I would not use the card. It is only very good against miracle. Hence, it is not versatile enough

- Red elemental blast sounds really good because it helps in other match ups. It is not only good against combo but also miracle for example. I will see if it fits my sideboard plans.

- More discard is a possibility, but I am afraid that I will spend my time making my opponent discard and we run both out of gaz... and at that game, combo is stronger to recover (oups I win...).

- Gaddock looks nice against Miracle + Ad Nauseam but it useless against Show & Tell. I requires me to splash W just for him in the SB. I am not very happy about it.

- Surgical // Extirpate. I don't think the strategy discard + extirpate is really good against combo, however these cards are also very useful against Dredge.

At the moment, I consider playing Red Elemental Blast, which is good in several match ups but probably helps a lot against Show & Tell. A very polyvalent SB card.

I will run as a complement Surgical // Extirpate which has a decent interaction with combo & helps against other decks. I think tormod & the likes are too dedicated.

Finaly, playing with 4 Veteran + 4 Deathrite is really no problem. Deathrite is just insane. Just have a look how fast your opponents are trying to remove them and you will understand. However, I could cut one of them for testing another card (not decided what yet). The only thing I am sure about Shaman is that I don't want to play only 1 of them. It is a GSZ target that you will not search since all the others are doing better: ooze for graveyard, Fink // Huntmaster for life...

Hope this help & that my english is still decent after such a big day,

TW

[slikwilly]

I have a few doubts about all the Omisciensce+Emmy story.
It actually turned in my favor games that where basically lost, bust sometimes i feel like its overkill. I am really undecided about this, also because without it that would be a totally different deck as long as i would play less discard and more board disruption.
I'd just like to hear your opinion about emmy or not emmy and what you would replace the whole package with. Also what do you think about Eladamri's Call? I often side it out but makes the whole deck smoother.
Thanks in advance, I am really curious about the opinion of more experienced players like you are guys! (also about the deck in general)

What do you do if you draw into Omni? At the very least I'd think you'd want a Scroll Rack so you can put it back into your library so you can Rector for it. I'd also think about doing something like swapping Call for Living Wish, and moving the Spaghetti Monster and possibly a Rector into the board. Then again that breaks the GSZ -> Empath -> Emrakul chain.

Omni + Emrakul looks _fun_ but it doesn't seem _good_.

[XdeckX]

If you play Rector, Omniscience and Emrakul in a NicFit deck you will have to play blue, if only for Brainstorm. Have a look at the build Viridia posted some pages back. I've taken that build and played it doing reasonably well. With blue you at least have the possibility to return the Omniscience to the deck. Scroll Rack isn't that great in that regard. You don't want to play Scroll Rack until you have Omniscience in hand because it just dies to Pernicious Deed. And with a build with Omni/Emmy you will be playing for that combo almost every game. Ususally you dont have the space to put in other goodies to easily win games with. At least that's my experience with OmniFit. Being a bit threat light makes you bank on Deed more to survive.

For me OmniFit is a build I play only to have a good time. Yes it can go bonkers (I've played it to 1st place in a small tourney) but when the deck isnt giving you insane hands every game, sometimes it gets really hard to win. Especially when the pressure is on.

but apart form that: Rector+Diabolic Intent = SEX!

[Viridia]

^ Basically that.
You rely on timing Deeds and spot removal really well and your only wincom is going Omnic -> Emrakul or hardcasting Emrakul if you have enough time (happens alot vs slow control w/o wastelands).
It is really fun to play and quite consistent, because you can play 4 Brainstorms alonside 2-3 Tops aswell as having 3 and 2 pieces of your 2-card combo in your deck (Rector + Intent) that aren't dead pre-combo either.
"Just" looping Recurring Nightmare with Strix' and Witness' can win you the game without Omni/Emrakul aswell tho ;)

[vilnico]

Hello guys,
I am new to the thread and I wanted to introduce you my rector list:
...

I have a few doubts about all the Omisciensce+Emmy story.
It actually turned in my favor games that where basically lost, bust sometimes i feel like its overkill. I am really undecided about this, also because without it that would be a totally different deck as long as i would play less discard and more board disruption.
I'd just like to hear your opinion about emmy or not emmy and what you would replace the whole package with. Also what do you think about Eladamri's Call? I often side it out but makes the whole deck smoother.
Thanks in advance, I am really curious about the opinion of more experienced players like you are guys! (also about the deck in general)

@sderenatore: Here is the list I played recently, slightly modified from p.145, which did 9/50 on a small event.


MAIN DECK 61

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath

1 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
2 Eladamri's Call

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Omniscience



SIDEBOARD 15
(2 cards I do not really remember)

1 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

1 Gaddock
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nether Void

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Abrupt Decay

To me the deck is pretty good. The mechanics works, it does not changes many MU (and it wins mirror).
MU changes :
- Maverick becomes one of your worst enemy because of Scavenging Ooze and Qasali Pridemage. Needless to say that Aven Mindcensor kills you on the spot, but it cannot be GSZ'd. But so far, Mav players I have played against were complete byes, because they did not know what could be a pain for us.
And honestly, most people do not know how Academy Rector triggers, and how to hate it.
- It wins against Miracle, which regular BGw can very hardly do (if not impossible, without any exageration).
Other than that, ti does not change anything against Thresh, Gobs and stuff... The combo changes dramatically your gameplan speed that is the big change (with the fact that Miracle becomes winnable). I am a huge fan of BGw-Rector stuff pre-M13. But the deck was so slooooow then. You could end up in draw more than enough whereas you were on the way to the win (because you play crappy 1/1 stuff). So to me, an Omniscience List is just a turbo version for Nic Fit.

@sderenatore: A few comments on your list
- I used to play Fierce Empath, so that GSZ could also fetch Emrakul in a chain. But other than that it does nothing... :(
- So I turn it into an Eternal Witness, which will get you a Tutor back, to get Emrakul again. So with Omniscience on the board, it is strictly equivalent to Empath. It also allows you to Tutor freely your Rector, as you could get it back with GSZ-Witness. And of course, Witness do other stuff which is always cool.
- Eladamri Call is good, but no more than 2.
- I do not really see a place for Vraska in this combo build.
- Rusalka, I would definitely play 1 in the future eventually. A few times I was wondering why I did not listed it in.
- You play Thragtusk/Sigarda/Vraska, where I play 2 Lingering Souls and Sorin. I guess here those are metagame slots, so why not but I am not really fan of it.
- And I still do not get why you guys want to have a Moat in your MD. Before M13, the list had what it needed to take on Goblins without Moat.

And no, Blue is not needed to play Omniscience. I still played Scroll Rack, but I think it can be easily a 3rd Top. Because it does not happen so often that you get your Omniscience in hand. And when you do, my build has a Pattern of Rebirth as a B plan which always proved to be a good alternative.
So I just mean that Blue is not needed to play the list "efficiently". You can play U, but it becomes another build.


Now, that was before RtR, and this cute Deathrite Shaman is winking at me like hell. It does so many things. And I believe you TW when you say that people just rush to kill him (and they are right !).
Also it is not negligible, it wins the Burn MU, which we could hardly do before ^^... But more generally, it serves all your gameplans, and hits from far away, which should give enough power to not draw anymore.
So I am most likely returning to BGw list, because I miss playing stupid (1/x) creatures/Nightmare/Sun Titan stuff
So here it is:

61 Maindeck

1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heaths
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Future Sight
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshare
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Elspeth Knight Errant



15 Sideboard

2 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Extirpate
1 Nether Void
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Eldrazi Conscription

So yeah 3/3 Veteran/Shaman. As I told you TW, I think 4/4 is too heavy, and we do not need that much I think.
It seems BUGgy list are fancy those days, so Thrun comes back to take them on.
I am really thinking about turning the Eldrazi Conscription in the MD for Thrun. But it could be played on anything else after a proper Cabal Therapy. Also the deck ramps quite enough to play it late game.
I am also wondering about getting an additional Pulse MD for that stupid TMS.
And yeah I know I am crazy with my Future Sight here, but it is the first thing I want to see on board for Rector effect (if I was serious, I would set the Conscription here xD)
Pattern of Rebirth is for getting Sun Titan on board "quickly". I was thinking on playing a second S Titan, but I thought that the Pattern could be more versatile. Experience will tell.

More seriously, I think about adding a few red sources, for sideboard REB mostly. Maybe 1 Taiga would be enough as the cutie DRS is now in.
Any advices on this point ?

[litenkatt]

Belcher..

is not a bad matchup actually! For first time ever I did some games against a friend and I ended up something like 7-3 or 6-3. Was really suprised as I thought it would be close to impossible to win. Two of the games he won was turn 1 win where I couldn't do shit

Im running 8 discard MD which helped a lot, especially cabal therapy. That card is the sickness. I had one game where I mulled down to 5 with the following hand: 2 Land 2 Cabal therapy 1 veteran explorer and he was even on the play! Fortunately he didn't have a turn1 win and I completley destroyed his hand the following turns as I drew a third cabal therapy and a gsz for a second explorer

[thecheese]

// Deck: BG exploring the vengevine (61)

// Lands
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
2 Lotleth Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Vengevine
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder

// Instants
3 Abrupt Decay

// Sorceries
4 Buried Alive
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith

// Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed

// Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

Want to try something like this utilizing the acceleration from GSZ
And explorer to put down threats. Then the possibility of swapping vengvine\ buried alive
package out for natural order Progenitus combo. Thoughts??

[TiMeWaLk]

@vilnico

Several questions // remarks about your list:

- How is the second Phyrexian Tower for you? I guess it is more important in a list with Rector.

- Do you really use Dryad Arbor? For what I remember, I always preferred to keep my GSZ for something better than a bad Llanowar on Turn 1. Later I can imagine you want to have a creature instead of a fetchland in hand (or search for a creature) because you play Diabolic Intent. Are you satisfied with the Dryad? I was not.

- I am really curious about the 3/3 Deathrite Shaman (DRS) // explorer split. I would love to hear why 3/3 instead of 4/2 or 2/4. For me the cards don't have the very same role. Is it a metagame call or just a test? I can't wait to hear the results :)

- No Sigarda?

- How are Vraska and Elspeth? The first one looks a bit too much like a very expansive Pulse while the second has this horrible WW in the casting cost.

- Why do you keep 1 wall of blossom without playing birthing pod? Is it worth it? I would put a 3rd sensei before a cantrip wall.

- I am sceptical about the Enchantements for creatures. It looks like a source of Card Disadvantage.

- How good are the lingering souls? Strangely, it would be my main motivation to play W in Nic Fit.

I hope it helps to improve your list :)


@thecheese

Bringing Vengevine in the deck is a weird idea for me:

- You make yourself very sensible to graveyard hate. It is really bad with DRS in the format.
- It is a gameplan that does improve any of the bad match-ups of Nic Fit.
- Vengevine without intuition, while you are playing cabal is really a shame.

It's probably not what you want to hear though :)

TW

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

HoneyT won a Grand Prix Trial playing Nic Fit yesterday for three-byes at GP Denver.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Congrats HoneyT!

Which version of Nic Fit did you run?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

He's out getting breakfast right now so I'll answer on his behalf, mostly cause I'm bored!

HoneyT played a 61-card GB list with some really spicy choices.

[litenkatt]

He's out getting breakfast right now so I'll answer on his behalf, mostly cause I'm bored!

HoneyT played a 61-card GB list with some really spicy choices.


Interesting looking forward to see the list

[kabards]

congrats @HoneyT

later if i have time i will post again my short tourney report that happens yesterday december 2, 2012.

[Firepaw3]

I'm happy to report i got 12th place with scapewish at scg baltimore open going 7-2, I'll post a report when i have alittle more time

[Cybey]

I'm happy to report i got 12th place with scapewish at scg baltimore open going 7-2, I'll post a report when i have alittle more time

Congrats!
Was wondering about your decklist, but already found it. Link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51298)

[Cire_dk]

Well done. I wondered why you did not play REB? Imo this is one of the mayor advantages if you play red? How was collective voyage for you? Interesting card.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Seems like BUG Fit would be the most diverse in terms of combo control. Actually curious how Misthollow Griffin paired with Food Chain would work out in a Nic Fit shell.

Also congrats kabards and firepaw3

[Maverick777]

Round 1 vs BUG DELVER
I played against Alex H he showed up late and took a game loss for being late. I started with a 2 land hand a green sun and a Sakura tribe elder so I felt moderately ok with land he played first and played a land passed I played a land passed and he does again I cast Sakura and he forces I then the next turn try to cast green sun on one after not getting any more land he spell pierces and proceeds to beat me because I can't get another land.

Game 2
Game two went the opposite way I got flooded with land and he proceeds to beat me after 15 or so turns

0-1

Round 2 BUG STILL
Game one took most of the whole round and we went back and forth but him playing all 4 standstills was the key factor in both games he beat me 1-0 so at this point I am a
But upset but BUG is a deck that I think rector fit needs to mold around a little because in my opinion it's the one of the only decks in the format to make rector work hard for a win.

0-2

Round 3 BURN
I drew my seven and mulled to six when i realized I had not un side boarded we called judge I got a warning only which was good. But I had to mull to 5 he starts with guide and swings I play veteran explorer and pass he swings the trigger gets me a land I block and get two more he passes I then cast moat and tell him to go he plays a figure and passes after burning me with a spike and bolt I play a land and cast thragtusk at this point he is very discouraged even more discouraged when I cast recurring nightmare the next turn he scoops.

Game 2
I did not board anything in
He burns me out quickly because I cannot find a baneslayer or a tusk

Game 3

I drop a baneslayer he drops vortex with 2 figures out levels one up all the way I take and cast another slayer he swings both I block both because I can't take the damage I top deck a
Pulse an destroy his figures he plays land passes I am
Getting very low on health I find a green sun with my top I cast it for 3 grabbing witness to pulse his vortex he spikes me I go to one I cast yosei swing with witness puts him to 7 h top decks land and shakes my hand.

1-2

Round 4 FAREI STOMPIE

This was against Dan bergquist the owner of the shop i go to and a
Good friend. I mulled to 5 game one with a one lander he opens up with a 4-4 angel great right >< I play my land I didn't draw another btw he plays revoker naming deed passes after swinging I fail to get another land I pass he swings and passes I find a bayou green sun for 1 grab explorer and pass he swings with angel and passes I draw a tower playboy sac explorer I have 5 mana I go for it I play baneslayer he says it resolves with a huge sigh. I eventually get yosei lock on him


And he scoops game two was much faster for me and yosei locked him
Out quickly

2-2
At this point I can't remember what I side boarded those games and I apologize these next few I do remember though

Round 5 JUNK

He casts shaman turn one I go cool you are on junk "I wanted this match up fairly badly to see how it would go" he got me on the ground for a while until moat dropped then sigarda and baneslayer ripped him apart

Game 2

Out: 1 Sakura, 1 explorer, 1 witness
In : 2 abrupt decay, 1 elspeth

This game went to turns it was long and agonizing. Moat dropped and for a
While he had nothing to do he vindicated but only had a bob and knight he moved to attacks I had an elspeth out he o ringed it and swung I chumped I play land pass he moves to attacks I abrupt decay his knight. We both durdle he drops Lilly makes me discard my nightmare i top into a Titan and cast it bringing nightmare out his bob has him at three life on his next turn I sac my Titan to his Lilly and he passes after eating something from my yard to get me into lethal range the next turn I top into yosei I cast him sac him to grab Titan to grab witness to grab decay tap him out and pass he makes
Me sac so I sac Titan he passes I decay the o Ring on my elspeth give e winess wings and win

3-2

Round 6 OLD JUNK

Game one he had ALL the creatures all the answers all the swords and I top decked like shit he obliterated me with big fat knight

Game 2

Out:1 Sakura, 1 vet, 1 witness
In : 2 abrupt decay 1 elspeth

I nuked his board three times and ended the game quickly
With sigarda and baneslayer

Game three
This game went on a while he damnationed me many times eventually I cast slayer but he had a maze i played nightmare and top decked yosei and got the lock online an he scooped

4-2


Round 7 FAREI STOMPIE

this guy was also a
Pro very nice guy he led with an angel just like before >< an proceeded to counter everything I played


Game 2
Out: 1 yosei, 1 empath, 1 nightmare, 1 Titan
In: 2 carpets 2 decays

I try to cast all my rectors and ally hate and he has all the counters I lose after putting up a hell of a
Fight.

We played for fun after and rector played the way it should i ripped his hand to pieces and locked
Him out.

4-3

Round 8: THE EPIC STORM
I lost the toss to my friend Ning and he duress me and takes me green sun seeing 2'therapies I go cast therapy naming led I miss I rip his hand part he attempts to go off a few turns later and can't I yosei lock him
And he scoops

Game 2:
Out: 1 nightmare, 1 yosei, 1 empath, 1 Titan, 1 elder
In: 2 memoricide, 2 cranial extraction, 1 nether void

Game two i year his hand up and sac my explorer for lands I have 4 he reforges the soul we draw a
New hand i draw into rector and tower he passes I play tower then rector sac her get nether void I pass he pays three for a chrome mox plays his third land and passes I pay 5 for a green sun for explorer Nd pass he pass back I play another explorer and pass he plays another mox pays 5 for a burning wish to for enchantment destruction I play deed crack on 0 he scoops

5-3

Round 9 TEZZERET CONTROL

to write everything that happened in this match would be absurd way to much went on and the matchup was RIDICULOUS if you play rector you NEVER want this match up. Lets put it this pay I played through 3 TEZZERET 2 jace and a
Karn I won game one because he drew his whole deck so I won lol

6-3 overall took 50th out of 289!
Not as good as a wanted but it happens if you want my list you can ask me and I will post it

[nottz]

First time posting so I apologize if the formatting is a little messed up.
ScapeWish:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Wood Elves
2 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse

This list has been performing quite well for me over the last couple of days. It's hardest matchup is probably the Junk decks that have access to 4 Hymns anywhere in the 75. Anyone else been testing lists like this?

[Cire_dk]

@nottz Your list is an exact copy of the list that has been discussed on this thread in detail. Arianrhod is one of the people who fine tuned the deck so better read his posts and replies.

edit: sorry not an exact copy: -1 Volrath +1 Stomping ground

[Cybey]

nottz's list is basically the same as Firepaw's list, except for a small landbase change.
MB:
+1 Bayou
-1 Forest

[vilnico]

@vilnico

Several questions // remarks about your list:

- How is the second Phyrexian Tower for you? I guess it is more important in a list with Rector.

- Do you really use Dryad Arbor? For what I remember, I always preferred to keep my GSZ for something better than a bad Llanowar on Turn 1. Later I can imagine you want to have a creature instead of a fetchland in hand (or search for a creature) because you play Diabolic Intent. Are you satisfied with the Dryad? I was not.

- I am really curious about the 3/3 Deathrite Shaman (DRS) // explorer split. I would love to hear why 3/3 instead of 4/2 or 2/4. For me the cards don't have the very same role. Is it a metagame call or just a test? I can't wait to hear the results :)

- No Sigarda?

- How are Vraska and Elspeth? The first one looks a bit too much like a very expansive Pulse while the second has this horrible WW in the casting cost.

- Why do you keep 1 wall of blossom without playing birthing pod? Is it worth it? I would put a 3rd sensei before a cantrip wall.

- I am sceptical about the Enchantements for creatures. It looks like a source of Card Disadvantage.

- How good are the lingering souls? Strangely, it would be my main motivation to play W in Nic Fit.

I hope it helps to improve your list :)


@thecheese

Bringing Vengevine in the deck is a weird idea for me:

- You make yourself very sensible to graveyard hate. It is really bad with DRS in the format.
- It is a gameplan that does improve any of the bad match-ups of Nic Fit.
- Vengevine without intuition, while you are playing cabal is really a shame.

It's probably not what you want to hear though :)

TW

@thecheese: I agree with TW here, DRS shaman hurts a lot everything based on graveyard hate, which now comes somehow maindeck with DRS.
And anyway, Vengevine is too cute to be played in NicFit I believe. I anyway HATE it as it somehow caused SotF to be banned :maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad:
(Vengevine was not really the problem, Necrotic Ooze was way more serious)

@TW: First thing, that was what I would play. Which means I have not tested yet.
- 2 Towers: I have always been happy since I have included the second tower MD. Ok it happened few times that I had one that would do nothing in hand, but that can always be a card for Lili, at worse...
But yeah, I am quite a heavy player of Rector, so I really like having 2 Towers.

- Dryad: It is true that this slot is questionable. Truth is, I rarely play to have 2 mana T1, beacuse it often gets Wasted (so you unblank adverse Wastes, which is the complete opposite of the gameplan ^^)... I hear some people saying that it dies on Deed so it is bad (to this, I'd just say that yes it dies on Deed, but you should have plenty of mana by then no ? so to me it is not really a problem that it dies). I rather play it for quick Flashbacked Therapy, but it is always painful to do it I have to admit.
No the real reason is that it does the tricky Fetch-Block, it gives you a Creature for Nightmare if your board is empty, same for Pattern of Rebirth, or Diabolic Intent. So I like it better for its Late game value than for its Early value.

- Veteran/DRS split : Well, I would say a hardcore NicFit would keep it 4/2. As you say they do not have the same role, and at some point assuring an early Mana expand is better for the pack. So Veteran should have priority. The thing is: I said that DRS can give the pressure BGw Nic Fit had before it came out, but I don't feel playing 2 would be enough. Because as you said, it is a MUST removal target. So 3 is a minimum to me, and as it does a bit of mana too, I would test one less Veteran.

- In my opinion, there is no reason to play both Thrun and Sigarda. They are both just as bad vs Terminus, and as good beacuse they have Hexproof. But Thrun is 4CCM, so it goes out on GSZ faster theoretically. The sacrifice protection is not so important to me. Flying ? That would be the real advantage of Sigarda, but here Elspeth can help.

- Vraska: is indeed here to Pulse stuff (who said Jace ?). But being expensive, and being able to stack Pulses ? That is worth trying I say. (Ultimate is too cute in my opinion)

- Elspeth: I have always been happy of my 2 Elspeth before playing Omniscience version. WW is actually the reason why I have 2 basic Plains listed, so that I can get them on Veteran if I did not have the chance to fetch a Dual Wx. Other than that, it technically kills Jace (who says I have a grudge against him ? ^^). But Sorin could be replacing Elspeth, if you really don't like the WW.

- Wall of Blossom: It is true that it might be the 3rd Top here. But it stalls the aggro, also which Top does not in itself. It can be sacrificed... I mean it is synergic with this "heavy sacrifice" list I would say.

- Enchantement for creature CDA : which one ? My number 1 target for Pattern of Rebirth will always be Sun Titan, which generates a monstruous amount of CA. Eldrazi Conscription, ok this is too cute, serious people could get something relevant instead of this xD

- Lingering Souls: This is sooooooooooo good ! It sacrifices, go to kill Jace. I would love to play those MD again (probably for the Conscription and the Future sight... for normal people :p)
So un-casual stuff would be: -1 Rector, -1 Future Sight, -1 Conscription Eldrazi for +1 Top and +2 Lingering Souls

- About your post on another board (LF): Against Elves, don't you have Pyroclasm in sideboard ? But anyway combo has always been a pain in the ass of NicFit. That is all there is to it sadly. Elves and Belcher are quite fair I would say, but everything else takes too much slots, and your can't SB properly against both S&T and Storm. My 2 cents on this.

[TiMeWaLk]

@vilnico:

I did not realize you were french (and probably reading LF), but that does not matter because I will probably post only here in the future. The interaction is just better.

Indeed I try to put Pyroclasm // Firespout or other kind of removals to improve my match-up against Goblin, Merfolk and Elves. When I tested against Elves, I was having none of those which was making the match-up completely one sided.

Concerning your explanations, they all make a lot of sense. The only point where I was maybe not clear is about the CDA. If the opponent kills your creature in response to the enchant creature... you lose two cards for one. This is where the CDA comes.

I would also like to try the splash W by curiosity but I don't see where are the advantages. I just think in terms of match-ups and I cannot see where it is better than a red splash for example.

Another small question, what about grave pact? It looks really good against the Show and Tell match-up & quite decent against creature based decks. Any thoughts?

TW

[Yoric]

I took 85th (5-4) at SCG Baltimore, playing Nic Fit (BGW Rector, though a slightly cheaper version)

Creatures
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Academy Rector
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Eternal Witness
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Starved Rusalka
1x Fierce Empath

Spells
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Enlightened Tutor

Land
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Windswept Heath
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thoughtseize
2x Choke
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Extirpate
1x Krosan Grip


Round 1 vs Burn
Game 1 on the play: I mulled a no land hand and found an Explorer, Therapy, a fetch, a Bayou, and Phyrexian Arena. Things seemed all right, though I ended up hanging on to the Arena because I didn't want to help him out at all. I Decayed a Sulfuric Vortex, and then he showed me a Price of Progress for lethal when I was at 4 with Grave Titan on the table as a two-turn clock. His only non-land permanents were some Hellspark Elementals and the Sulfuric Vortex, and I saw a Barbarian Ring when I Therapied.

In: Faith's Fetters, Extirpate, Ooze
Out: Phyrexian Arena, Wickerbough Elder, Veteran Explorer

Game 2: I kept a poor hand (nerves?) with Sensei's Divining Top, lands, and a Therapy, played T1 Top, go. He played Goblin Guide. Oops. The Guide ramped my hand (thanks to Top) and I dropped an Explorer to block, but then he stopped attacking and drew straight burn spells into my all land / Pernicious Deed draws.
0-2, 0-1


Round 2 vs Burn
Game 1 on the draw: This guy was playing BR Burn with Confidants and Lavamancers. I don't remember what I kept, but I fetched first turn and then my life total jumped down by threes.

In: Faith's Fetters, Extirpate, Ooze, 3x Thoughtseize (2 is better than 3 or 4, right? At least, that's what I was thinking.)
Out: Phyrexian Arena, Wickerbough Elder, 4x Veteran Explorer (slowing the game and not helping him thin his deck seemed important; I clearly wasn't prepared for Burn matches)

Game 2: T1 Thoughtseize took a Goblin Guide and T2 Therapy took a pair of Sulfuric Vortexes, but he landed a Lavamancer and drew hot hot heat the rest of the time. I drew into my massive beater, Starved Rusalka, and pinged him down to 11 before GSZ found me Sigarda. I was at one life and he had an empty hand. He commented that Thragtusk would've been better here, and I told him to shut his rat-face (not really)--and then he flipped over the top card of his deck. Rift Bolt.
0-4, 0-2


Round 3 vs Goblins
Game 1 on the draw: He mulled to 3 (!!!) and led with T1 Mountain, go. I played an Explorer, he played a Lackey, they traded, he played a Ringleader, then a Piledriver which I Swordsed, then he overextended into a Deed and I killed him with Sun Titan (recurring Deed) and Yosei. No need to lock.

I didn't sideboard for this match-up; though I think Extirpate could be handy, I don't know what I'd want to take out.

Game 2: No mulligans this game, and he led with Lackey and a T2 Aether Vial, but didn't swing into my Veteran Explorer. I swung at him instead, which he took, and then played another Explorer. He played War Chief, which I kindly Swordsed, and then FINALLY he attacked me and let me ramp. I played a Deed, he played a Ringleader and a Matron, I played another Deed, he played another Matron and then a Ringleader and a Vial, I played Sun Titan to recur Deed and wipe his board, he scooped.
2-4, 1-2


Round 4 vs Burn
He was on the play and opened with T1 Mountain, suspend Rift Bolt. I tilted pretty bad after that and I'm not proud of it. I do remember that when I cast Therapy in game one he showed me his hand and then hid it again after I saw that I hadn't hit, and I didn't make him show it longer so I could write things down. That didn't help my tilt. Also not helping: I took Thragtusk out of the main and CoP: Red out of the board on Friday (more on this later).
2-6, 1-3


Round 5 vs BUG Control
Game 1 on the draw: I kept a hand with Top, Forest, three fetches, and Wickerbough Elder. We both fetched a couple of times before he found a Bob and swung with it, and I found a Veteran Explorer. He played a Top and didn't swing (this seemed common from my opponents; not wanting to help me ramp), I swung and played another Explorer, and then he played another Bob and I played the Elder. I hit him a few times, leaving one Explorer back to block, and then he resolved Jace and started Fatesealing me, and then he blew a Deed to clear my board, hoping for a Jace win, I believe. I saved my Top, and then proceeded to ignore Jace as I cast Grave Titan, Jace bounced it, Grave Titan (countered) and Recurring Nightmare (landed), and then finally Yosei, sacrificed to bring back Grave Daddy.

In: 2x Choke, Krosan Grip, Faith's Fetters
Out: 2x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy, 1x Swords to Plowshares

Game 2: This one was fun. We fetched around for a while, he landed Top, Perished my Scavenging Ooze, and then played a Deathrite Shaman. I Decayed the Shaman and then used Volrath's Stronghold to get my Ooze back. He Decayed it, I used the Stronghold again and started beating. I had Eternal Witness, Liliana, and Yosei in my hand at one point, and +1ed Liliana to pitch the Witness, just for kicks. After tapping him down, making him sacrifice two Bobs, playing a Choke, and beating with the Ooze for a few turns (I grew it a few times, too) he finally drew the Wasteland he needed to stop my Stronghold shenanigans. Then I topdecked a Grave Titan and he scooped. I wouldn't have pitched the Witness in a regular situation, but he was playing quite deliberately and I was nearly certain we would either go to time or I would win. It felt good to be in control.
4-6, 2-3


Round 6 vs No Show (as in, I got a bye)
4-6, 3-3 (sort of)

Round 7 vs Faerie Control (like Stompy, but playing Erayo instead of 4/4s)
Game 1 on the play: I kept Therapy, Explorer, Explorer, Deed, Bayou, Fetch, Fetch, and opened on fetch for Forest into Explorer. He played a basic Island and then Ponder. "Finally," I thought, "High Tide or Storm!" I attacked, played my second Explorer, then fetched for a basic Swamp to play Cabal Therapy. I don't remember why I was playing around Wasteland (and he commented on the fact that I was playing around Wasteland and said he would do the same (he was playing all Islands)). After I saw his hand of Erayo, Ninja of the Deep Hours, SoFaI, Spellstutter Sprite, and Repeal, I felt pretty happy. Then he countered my flashed back Therapy with the Sprite, Ninjutsu-ed in the Ninja, played a few Clouds of Faeries, and attacked me down to 3 before I found a Deed and wiped his board. Then I got a Yosei / Rusalka / Stronghold lock on him and he conceded at 10 life.

In: 2x Choke, 2x Gaddock Teeg, 1x Extirpate
Out: 4x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy

Game 2: I kept a VERY land-heavy hand because his deck seemed to rely on little weenies (thus giving me a chance to start slowly). I think after 3 losses I started feeling like I could have fun with the tournament. He countered an early Cabal Therapy with Spellstutter Sprite and started beating down; I played Starved Rusalka and started beating down, then played Choke. At some point I played Enlightened Tutor and he flashed in another Spellstutter Sprite to counter. We had one another at 10 (me) and 12 (him) when we went into turns and I played a Grave Titan. He scooped.
6-6, 4-3


Round 8 vs Maverick
Game 1 on the play: I blind-call Brainstorm on a T1 Therapy; he shows me GSZ, Noble, Savannah, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring. I got excited and shredded away the GSZ with another Therapy. I waited for him to build his board, and then I Deeded to keep him from attacking for 9 with an Elspeth'ed Knight. Then I drew three lands in a row, and then a Deed that I had to use immediately again. Then I landed Top and saw Sun Titan, Yosei, Rector. I had two Therapies in the yard and Stronghold in play, but not enough land to cast Yosei and put it on top in the same turn--so of course I chose to tap the Top to draw Yosei, and then of course I immediately sacrificed it to a Therapy (he had no cards in hand) so I could tap down all his stuff. I cannot explain that play. I lost to a flying Scavenging Ooze shortly thereafter.

In: Ooze, Maelstrom Pulse, Faith's Fetters
Out: 2x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy, Swords to Plowshares
No, I cannot explain siding these things out, either.

Game 2: Turn one Therapy saw Elspeth, Pridemage, KotR, Sylvan Library, Wasteland, and lands. I fetched a couple of times, and then drew straight lands for several turns before I took 9 from a flying Knight, drew another land, and then took 9 from a flying Knight. Sometimes them's the breaks. I had a Deed in hand, but couldn't play it and pop it for 3 without losing either a) a land to Wasteland or b) the Deed to Qasali Pridemage (by waiting to untap). Tough.
6-8, 4-4


Round 9 vs BG ???
Game 1 on the draw: He Thoughtseized me off of a Bayou first turn and took Pernicious Deed, then I Therapied him for Deathrite Shaman and whiffed, though I did see Duress, Disfigure, Jitte, and Hag Hedge-mage (?). I took Hedge-mage on the flashback, lost two lands to Hymn to Tourach, and then played Scavenging Ooze. He killed my Ooze with Abrupt Decay, I played Stronghold and got it back. He killed my Ooze with Disfigure, I used Stronghold and got it back. I played Grave Titan, and he used Maelstrom Pulse to clear the tokens and then made me sacrifice the Titan and Wastelanded my Stronghold. Two turns later I drew Eternal Witness, brought back the Titan, and he scooped.

I shuffled my sideboard into my deck and then removed it again.

Game 2: He Thoughtseized me again, taking Top and leaving me with five lands and Wickerbough Elder. I drew Cabal Therapy and named Hymn to Tourach, hitting two of them and leaving him with Ooze, Abrupt Decay, and Verdant Catacombs. He drew and played Deathrite Shaman and started pinging me down. I played Wickerbough Elder, he played Ooze, and we started trading blows. Finally I drew out of lands and into Top, played it and spun to find Sigarda, Grave Titan, and Swords. I tapped to draw Sigarda and play it. He sighed and pinged me down to 3 with the Shaman. Next turn I drew the Top, cast it, tapped it to draw Grave Titan, played Titan, and he scooped (he was down to one if I attacked with Sigarda).
8-8, 5-4 (sort of)


I am definitely swapping Thragtusk back in for Deranged Hermit. As quickly as Hermit ends games, Tusk is better in the toolbox (and can end games only a touch more slowly). Enlightened Tutor took the place of Skeletal Scrying, and while I only drew it twice I thought it was a worthy replacement--though I will probably drop it for a second Eternal Witness. Starved Rusalka is simply fantastic, and I'm glad I picked mine up last May before they got expensive (hah).

Regarding my sideboard: I was informed by a guy who regularly plays at Xanadu Games in the Baltimore area that the local-ish meta is a lot of High Tide and Storm combo. I was expecting a lot of that, plus a lot of UW Miracles. In round 7 a judge who came past our game said that there had been many High Tide, Miracles, and Storm mirrors, so I guess all of those players hit the draw bracket early and didn't get near me. Anyway, that's the reason I took out Thragtusk, CoP, and my extra Pulses, and put in the Thoughtseizes and Thalias. I was talking to Maverick777 after the tournament and he was telling me how much I need to get Moat and Nether Void--and I completely agree! If you would all kindly donate to the cause...

I was also admiring the Raking Canopy in his sideboard, and while the only flying beaters I saw were too large to care (Elspeth-jumped Knight/Ooze) or too small to really matter (faeries), I think I'm going to pick one up.

The people in the Rock forum have been talking about how bad Choke is right now, but it worked great for me against BUG and Faeries. My Carpets of Flowers are in the mail, probably to be tried alongside Choke in the right meta. T1 Carpet into T2 Choke seems pretty insane, though it's more likely T1 Carpet into T2 Force of Will ;-)

In closing, I love playing this deck.

[Cire_dk]

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

[XdeckX]

I havent played Stronghold in ScapeWish or any other version for quite some time. Ive never found it to be really helpfull tbh. In ScapeWish i replaced it with a basic forest (mostly due to lacking a 2nd Stomping Ground)

Im still hoping HoneyT will post his GB list...

[vilnico]

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

@Cire_dk: I don't play scapewish, but here is my opinion.
- Abrupt Decay : Scapewish build is more like Aggro/Combo build, you do not need plays that do 1 for 1. Pernicious Deed does a way better job. And Arianrhod did not included in his last list from november.
- Deathrite Shaman : what would you want to remove it ? It only removes Cabal Therapy, if you do not flashback them immediatly. It chumpblocks a Huntmaster, so it stalls the game which is in your advantage.
- And anyway, if it is to include 1 Decay, when most list will pack 4 DRShaman, just forget it.
To be extreme, I would say that Lightning Bolt is way better in this build than Abrupt Decay as a 1-off.
- So to me it would rather be a Huntmaster, but if you feel you need more mana, go for a Sakura.
- Stronghold used to be a good stuff. But now there is DR Shaman, which will ruin its activation. And you do not play enough removal to handle all the 4DRS list that will run around. If you run off of creature you still have the combo to finish your opponent. So Stonghold is a bad idea to me.

[TheArchitect]

Id say I win 20% of my games because of Volraths stronghold. Its useful most of the time if you just draw it naturally, but fetching it off prime titan wins the game against decks that have removal, but cant somehow exile prime titan before you untap phyrexian tower. Also, against UW who has a million cantrips, and 8 ways to basically exile prime, you can get the 2 towers, and then sac him to therapy before they get priority.

I talk about recurring prime titan, but legacy decks have a hard time beating a Huntmaster or thragtusk every turn too. Or ewti for bushiness.

[vilnico]

@vilnico:

I did not realize you were french (and probably reading LF), but that does not matter because I will probably post only here in the future. The interaction is just better.

Indeed I try to put Pyroclasm // Firespout or other kind of removals to improve my match-up against Goblin, Merfolk and Elves. When I tested against Elves, I was having none of those which was making the match-up completely one sided.

Concerning your explanations, they all make a lot of sense. The only point where I was maybe not clear is about the CDA. If the opponent kills your creature in response to the enchant creature... you lose two cards for one. This is where the CDA comes.

I would also like to try the splash W by curiosity but I don't see where are the advantages. I just think in terms of match-ups and I cannot see where it is better than a red splash for example.

Another small question, what about grave pact? It looks really good against the Show and Tell match-up & quite decent against creature based decks. Any thoughts?

TW

Yeah I read LF, but they just ignore Nic Fit there. "It is not a real deck" as they like to say. "It does not play U, it plays Veteran Explorer. What else ?" xD

Against Elves I never really had any pbs. It is pretty 50/50 to me for a BGw list, thanks to StP and Deed. I will take here also the reason to play white:
- Swords to Plowshare to me is the first reason to play W, before RtR. Now there is Decay, but mostly there is DRS, which owns T1 Lackey. So it is more the couple DRS/Decay that made me cut a StP in my list, but just Decay alone is not a reason to get it over StP. Decay to me is just an additional Pulse, and not an expensive StP.
- Sun Titan !
- Then there is Lingering Souls, for the reason we spoke of.

Academy Rector, but this will get difficult to get around the DRS those days. This is only optional. It is not a real reason to play W. It is kinda like Birthing Pod, you can play it in Nic Fit, but you do not have to.
And then sideboard, with O'ring against S&T for example, or playable Gaddock.

Honestly, I have not played BGr yet (but currently building it), so I can not really tell the advantages/disadvantages. To me red is attractive because of Bonfire, Huntmaster, REB, and Dreadbore at some point.

Grave Pact:
- First, it is 4ccm, Slaughter Game is better against S&T for the same cost. But anyway too late.
- Then it is 1BBB kinda hard on colors :/
- But if you meant having it in Rector-build, I would say it is not really good, Humility is the only Enchantment that does a decent job against S&T. Honestly, my best option against S&T is to play Omniscience NicFit. They are just not allowed to play S&T without Omniscience, the risk that they help to assemble our combo is too big.
- Against creatures decks ? you mean Aggro in general ? I never wished I had such a stuff, or even a Moat to beat them. Deed just owns them all ^^

Enchantment CDA:
Ah what you say is right :D, but you can wait that your opponent removes your DRS before enchanting stuff ;)
Also as they are 1-off, they most likely get in there via Rector, so they do not know what is happening :p


@ Architect: Did I read you would go fetch 2 Phyrexian Tower on Primeval Titan effect ? Please don't do this in real life ^^

[Arianrhod]

No, he meant Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower, which is an engine that we've been calling The Two Towers, because we're all nerds.

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

If you want to go white in the current meta, I would advocate the more Junkish lists that have some number Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay main. Just be aware that you're going to have board MUCH more aggressively for combo as a result, since you don't have Rector->Nether Void. It all depends on how much Deathrite Shaman is in your meta.

I would also advocate looking at the concept of a Populate version using Trostani and more walkers, which we briefly touched on some number of pages back. You can overload Terminus, BUG Control doesn't run sweepers maindeck, and neither does Junk. I don't know for sure if it's good enough or not, but it's probably more viable than Rector is currently.

ScapeWish is, obviously, still fine. Because Honey Badger don't give a fuck.

[Maverick777]

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

I am a rector player but I know arianrhod* personally and I have played scapewish. You NEED to run abrupt decay liliana and dethrite Are huge problems that decay deals with so try that out because junk is everywhere!!!

[Maverick777]

No, he meant Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower, which is an engine that we've been calling The Two Towers, because we're all nerds.

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

If you want to go white in the current meta, I would advocate the more Junkish lists that have some number Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay main. Just be aware that you're going to have board MUCH more aggressively for combo as a result, since you don't have Rector->Nether Void. It all depends on how much Deathrite Shaman is in your meta.

I would also advocate looking at the concept of a Populate version using Trostani and more walkers, which we briefly touched on some number of pages back. You can overload Terminus, BUG Control doesn't run sweepers maindeck, and neither does Junk. I don't know for sure if it's good enough or not, but it's probably more viable than Rector is currently.

ScapeWish is, obviously, still fine. Because Honey Badger don't give a fuck.

I don't know that liliana and shaman pose that much of a problem to rector ya shaman makes nightmare and rector sad but a well placed moat alongside big dudes pretty much wins you the game no matter what I played good players over the weekend including KOMAR who if you don't know who he is he is an exceptional player that pilots junk like no one else. I think it's better positioned than scapewish in the matchup but rector with its high threat density shouldn't have issues taking junk down.

[Arianrhod]

I rather like the sideboard that Erick Whelpley and I came up with for his list at SCG Baltimore. I don't remember it off the top of my head, though, so hopefully he'll see this and posts it. It had a pair of Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, IIRC, to help out with Liliana of the Veil especially.

I'm also a big fan of extra copies of Slaughter Games (and Memoricide/Cranial for non-red versions) right now. For Steve's list for Balitmore I bumped him up to 4 total, in a 2/2 split. The card is just batshit good right now.

[lambert101]

I rather like the sideboard that Erick Whelpley and I came up with for his list at SCG Baltimore. I don't remember it off the top of my head, though, so hopefully he'll see this and posts it. It had a pair of Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, IIRC, to help out with Liliana of the Veil especially.

I'm also a big fan of extra copies of Slaughter Games (and Memoricide/Cranial for non-red versions) right now. For Steve's list for Balitmore I bumped him up to 4 total, in a 2/2 split. The card is just batshit good right now.





Went x-4 in Baltimore. List was amazing. Lost to sneak attack, junk, goblins, and rug. Board was the following:


3 slaughter games (best card in board)
3 red elemental blast
2 Abrupt decay (still need to find and out to junk and bug)
1 tsunami
1 innocent blood
1 virtue's ruin
1 Damniation
1 thoughtseize
1 scapewish
1 maelstrom pulse

Still am learning the deck

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Arianrhod: back so soon? ^w^ Glad to see you haven't become a stranger yet ^_^

@ My BUG list: Do y'all think Prime Time is worth being a 61st card with only The Two Towers as notable searches? (i.e. no Treetop Villages)

[Qweerios]

Here are the results from my 2 last tournaments using Gifts Fit:


Creature (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungien

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Negate


R1: 1-1-0 vs. Maverick
I took G1 and died during time in G2 (failled to find a Deed). Very slow player and the rounds were apparently 10 minutes shorter than I am used to. No sideboard.

R2: 2-0 vs NO Bant
I won G1 and G2 with a devastating Deed. No Sideboard.

R3: 2-0 vs. Maverick
Close games against my friend piloting a list I made for him so my therapies are on point. No Sideboard.

R4: 2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
Won G1 on the back of my single wasteland and my opponent cannot handle the gift pile.
-4 Therapy, +2 Spellbomb, +2 Extirpate
I Extirpate LftL and cast a Grave Titan that my opponent cannot handle.

R5: 0-2 vs. UG Infect
My opponent offers to draw into top8 as he is currently in first place but I refuse because I need another win for top8.
I get to eat 2X Invigorate and my Decay fizzles to Vines of Vastwood.
-1 Garruk, -1 Ooze, -1 Thragtusk -1 Grave Titan, +4 Thoughtseize
I saw 2X Invigorate again and eventualy died to Inkmoth Nexus.

R6: 2-0 vs. Canadian Thresh (RUG)
G1 was a close game that I stabilized off the back of an Ooze followed by Thragtusk.
-2 Therapy, +2 Carpet of Flowers
I end up Thragtusk looping and my opponent concedes.

At this point I am fairly confidant I will make top8 since my only loss is to the only person with a perfect score in the room. I finished 9th with 2 players in top8 with the same score as me... Oh, I also got to do a deck tech so I will link it when it will be posted.

The next event is a local tournament with about 20-25 players (less than half of the previous one I think).

R1: 2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
My opponent suffers several mulligans both games and I end up wiping his board and laying mine.
-4 Therapy, +2 Spellbomb, +2 Extirpate

R2: 2-1 vs. ZeRO (Zenith Rebirth Order combo)
I get combo'd on T3 and we go to G2.
-1 Garruk, -1 Jace, -1 Grave Titan, -1 Thrun, -1 LftL, -1 Wasteland, -2 Explorer, -2 Gifts, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Negate, +2 Spellbomb
G2 and G3 are very long but discard + GY hate + backup Negate keeps my opponent on lockdown.

R3: 0-2 vs. OmniShow
Show n Tell on T2 for Gisselbrand and Grave Titan. Innocent Blood gets FoW, Grissel blocks and my opponent has 20ish cards in hand. I get Omni'd next turn.
-1 Garruk, -1 Pulse, -1 Decay, -1 Volrath, -1 Ooze, -1 Thrun, -1 Thragtusk, -4 Deed, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Negate, +2 Extirpate, +1 Karakas
I draw rather poorly and take a Throught the Breach + Emrakul to the face. I almost recovered but my LftL was countered twice then my opponent went off again.

R4: 2-1 vs. UBr TorporNaught
I took G1 after drawing 3 Deeds in a row. No Sideboard.
Lost G2 to Dreadnought with counter backup.
G3 was tight but my opponent conceded to Garruk + Lily.

During my matches against ZeRO my opponent opened with Probe + Therapy twice and I liked it a lot. I am thinking about including 2-4 Probes and see how it goes.

[Yoric]

I played BUG Control and BG Fun Stuff at the Open, both with Deathrite Shaman, and it isn't a problem for Rector as long as you have Phyrexian Tower or Starved Rusalka. It's all about timing--if you're keeping them from gaining two life or making you lose two just by keeping one land untapped (Tower / Forest), that seems fine to me. When they pull their trigger, you pull yours. No problem. And it's definitely NOT worse than fighting Ooze because they have to tap it. They don't get another chance. Rector is fine. Recurring Nightmare, on the other hand, should probably be sided out against those graveyard haters.

It helps that ours is a rogue-ish deck (so to speak), because people don't know what anyone is running. There's no perfectly stock list, and thanks to Sam making waves, half the people I played thought I was going to start dropping Valakuts. Hilarious.

I tried out a list a few weeks ago that shifted some of the big creatures and Recurring Nightmare out of the Rector build and replaced them with Doubling Season and some big Planeswalkers (Vraska, Karn, Elspeth KE) alongside Liliana. Going ult on Elspeth and Lily the turn they come into play is phenomenal, Vraska can be a 5-mana answer-me-now-or-die, and Karn is Karn. Eladamri's Call and Diabolic Intent were key players. Overall I think it may be too cute, but it was fun to test--and again, nobody knew what was coming.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Here's the list, which won a GPT for Denver. Credit to HoneyT.

61 Cards

23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

14 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

24 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse

15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Damnation
1 Golgari Charm
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

[slikwilly]

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

This is the big reason I've spent the last few weeks playing a DGA-ish deck w/ a Bayou splashed to support the Shaman. Of course in my meta I'm also the guy who is running Shaman, so I guess I don't have to change, but at this point I don't think I can run Rector in Denver and thus I gotta get in some rounds with a new deck before then.

[vilnico]

@Arianrhod: HAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA, you made my day xD

@Yoric: I promise you, if I have a DRS on board, and you have a Rector on board, I will NEVER let you resolve the trigger. No matter what. +2/-2 life is nothing compared to a boarded Deed or Future Sight.
Also I do not think that it is worse than Ooze, which anyway people use gradually. Having DRS activated once in a turn does the same thing to me. No the thing that makes it worse is that it is not printed in a "limited" way as Ooze was, so it makes it available for everyone. That is the real pain in the ass.
By the way I like the PW thing :D
Doubling Season might be overplay, but having everyone on board is kinda funky to me xD
I remember when I was playing Omniscience, it happened to me a few times to Omniscience into Garruk and Sorin, and win just on that (basically it wins if Garruk makes 2 turns, flips and get Emrakul anyway ^^). Casting them together also wins ^^.

@TW: Forgot to say, Vraska is a cheap Karn ! I'd prefer way more to have Karn instead of the Medusa... but 7 that's a lot... But maybe with DRS it might be playable now, have to think about that :D

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: HAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA, you made my day xD

@Yoric: I promise you, if I have a DRS on board, and you have a Rector on board, I will NEVER let you resolve the trigger. No matter what. +2/-2 life is nothing compared to a boarded Deed or Future Sight.
Also I do not think that it is worse than Ooze, which anyway people use gradually. Having DRS activated once in a turn does the same thing to me. No the thing that makes it worse is that it is not printed in a "limited" way as Ooze was, so it makes it available for everyone. That is the real pain in the ass.
By the way I like the PW thing :D
Doubling Season might be overplay, but having everyone on board is kinda funky to me xD
I remember when I was playing Omniscience, it happened to me a few times to Omniscience into Garruk and Sorin, and win just on that (basically it wins if Garruk makes 2 turns, flips and get Emrakul anyway ^^). Casting them together also wins ^^.

@TW: Forgot to say, Vraska is a cheap Karn ! I'd prefer way more to have Karn instead of the Medusa... but 7 that's a lot... But maybe with DRS it might be playable now, have to think about that :D

Exactly this. The sheer availability and commonplace use of Deathrite is the problem. Think about Scavenging Ooze. At its ABSOLUTE HEIGHT, Maverick was using it as a 3-of. One deck, 3 copies. Currently, we have BUG and Junk at least that are both 4-of Deathrite decks, to say nothing of stuff like Slik pointed out, that falls between the cracks (Deadguy, Zombies, whatever). I'd rather face the Maverick deck with 1x Ooze than the Junk deck with 4x Deathrite, to hell with Deathrite tapping or not.

The planeswalker idea sounds hysterical. I have no idea if it's actually good or not -- but it might be better than you think it is. Planeswalkers play very, very nicely with Pernicious Deed -- which is half the reason by itself why Nic Fit has so much trouble with opposing 'walkers. If we were using them instead of our opponents, that could turn powerful very quickly. It's worth further exploration IMO.

And I said I was scaling back, not quitting -- I'm still here, ready and willing to offer my thoughts. I'm just not posting 80 times a day like I was, nor going to every event within driving distance. On that note: I will be at Mythic this Saturday, and I will be doing something that I've long mentioned, but never actually attempted. It's pretty nutty. I'm not going to spoil the fun yet, but I'm pretty sure that the locals will appreciate it =)

[MrIggins]

@RandomGestures
That list is pretty similar to the one I've been playing, I've been really liking my 1 Deathrite Shaman so I definitely see why you want a second, but could you explain Abrupt Decay over more copies of Maelstrom Pulse, and the Acidic Slime over Wickerbough Elder (which has usually been the choice as far as I can tell)? I've been very happy with Elder since he offers a clock that can take out a Jace and outsizes most of RUG's creatures while also hitting relevant targets.

The 1-of Diabolic Intent is pretty sweet, but was it good for you? What did you usually get with it?

When did you bring in Golgari Charm?

Congrats on your finish!

[vilnico]

@Arianrhod : Actually about the PW thing, I have been thinking a while ago about something like this, packing some Culling the Weak to ramp into Karn, or even Sorin Markov. Cause playin Karn is sooooooooooooo cool :D
I might return to something like this sometime :)

[slave]

Hi everyone,
Been reading heaps on this deck - seems a nice option, I love G/B.
Might even consider running this over my dredge deck for a while.
I'm hoping you could answer some questions about it.

Considering you're on colour for Griselbrand, why is it I seen barely anyone running a single in their list?
It's a very common card right now, and resolving it usually means "I win" in most other decks.
Having it handy for Show'n'Tell legend rule is obviously not the only reason, but being able to Primeval Titan/Eternal Witness/Explorer ramp shouldn't be impossible....
I understand that 8-CMC can be a turn (or sometimes two) slower in this deck than Grave Titan, but isn't Grisel soo0O0oo much better than Grave Titan, because instant removal like Swords to Plowshares doesn't completely negate playing it?

4x Veteran Explorer. Quite a lot of the lists I've seen, seem to assume that the opponent is going to be the primary source of it's demise.
Against decks like combo and control that don't necessarily want it dead, what would be your standard line of play?
And are you running enough of your own removal to waste targetted removal on it yourself?
Would including 3 Diabolic Intent in the deck be a good number to work with this? Too many?

I like Liliana of the Veil, in Pox & Gate, but does it work really well in this deck with so many singletons?
Is Liliana Vess a worse option, even if only for it's tutor abilty, playable in this deck, considering the ramp available here?

Cheers.

[Qweerios]

Hahaha it's finally up;

MDSS Deck Tech:
http://mdss.manadeprived.com/deck-tech-nic-fit-with-vincent-durocher/

It looks alright, some of my words were a bit changed though (Two Towers for Phyrexian Tower and the bit about linear gameplan..)
Oh yeah lol, the deck has 60 cards but somehow its posted as 63.

[TheArchitect]

Hi everyone,
Been reading heaps on this deck - seems a nice option, I love G/B.
Might even consider running this over my dredge deck for a while.
I'm hoping you could answer some questions about it.

Considering you're on colour for Griselbrand, why is it I seen barely anyone running a single in their list?
It's a very common card right now, and resolving it usually means "I win" in most other decks.
Having it handy for Show'n'Tell legend rule is obviously not the only reason, but being able to Primeval Titan/Eternal Witness/Explorer ramp shouldn't be impossible....
I understand that 8-CMC can be a turn (or sometimes two) slower in this deck than Grave Titan, but isn't Grisel soo0O0oo much better than Grave Titan, because instant removal like Swords to Plowshares doesn't completely negate playing it?

4x Veteran Explorer. Quite a lot of the lists I've seen, seem to assume that the opponent is going to be the primary source of it's demise.
Against decks like combo and control that don't necessarily want it dead, what would be your standard line of play?
And are you running enough of your own removal to waste targetted removal on it yourself?
Would including 3 Diabolic Intent in the deck be a good number to work with this? Too many?

I like Liliana of the Veil, in Pox & Gate, but does it work really well in this deck with so many singletons?
Is Liliana Vess a worse option, even if only for it's tutor abilty, playable in this deck, considering the ramp available here?

Cheers.

Griselbrand is just overkill. You wont always hit 8 mana, and having cards that are useful at lower mana costs is just better. Grave titan is not very good either though in my opinion.

Most of the time you will have to find a way to get your own explorer dead (before he gets exiled with StPS). Only decks like RUG, BUG, or tribal can you actually plan on them having to attack into your explorers.

Against combo and control (and goblins) you have to be a bit more careful when you sac your explorers. Just wait till you actaully have something relavent to do with the mana your going to get THAT turn.

You usually dont need to use your own target removal on explorer. Very rarely you have to, and it doesnt feel good. He usually dies as a blocker, or you find one of the ~8ish sac outlets. Also deeds and sweepers in the SB, hit explorers. In GB, id suggest MD to have 1 Phyrexian tower, 1 diabolic intent, 4 therapy, 1-3 innocent blood.

3 Diabolic intent is way too many. I tried one and really liked it in GB. One would be good.

Im a big fan of liliana in GB, but people are pretty polar about her. She is a playstyle choice I think. She is definitely good, if you like what she does to the game (make it a topdeck battle). I run 3 when I play GB nic fit. Pox, vess, etc, dont seem very good here.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I actually think the problem with Griselbrand isn't so much his cost, but the amount of black he requires. He requires 4 swamps or 2 swamps, a Phyrexian Tower, and a creature. Also, his big ability doesn't do us much good: -7 life might get us all the resources we could ever want, but it's useless until we untap, and that big of a life swing that late in the game would really hurt more than help.

And my thoughts on Lili: she cannot be played by herself: she needs either a Thrun or JMS or Elspeth or some combination to work alongside her to cause some real damage.

[raindrainxi]

^This. It's not that Griselbrand is bad in this deck, it's just that there are others more better than him in the role. When you hardcast him, you're left with no way to use the cards you drew.

You seem to have forgotten that Vet Ex's main source of demise is Cabal Therapy. :) Especially against the decks you've mentioned.

Lilliana OTV is a playstyle choice. Personally I like to drop her as early as possible to maximize her. You really have to try her first to realize how good she is in the deck.

[HoneyT]

Hey guys, long time no post! It's good to be back at a computer!

As RandomGestures has informed you all, I recently won a GPT for Denver with GB Nic Fit. Here's the list for reference:

Deck (61):

Lands (23):
4 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (14):
1 Acidic Slime
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (24):
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize

Here's a short matchup run-down:

R1 vs Miracles 2-0
R2 vs Junk 1-1-1
R3 vs The Epic Storm 2-1
R4 ID into Top 4
Semifinals vs Elves 2-0
Finals vs Dredge 2-1

I can go into more detail about card choices, the matchups and/or sideboarding later if anyone is interested!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Holy crap: your creature base is exactly like mine with the exception of the Grave Titan . . . and I can chalk that up as being JMS since they both win games on stabilized boards.

I don't know why, but that alone gives me confidence that my list will do well at SCG Cincy in February ^_^

Also: how did the Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse split work out for ya?

[litenkatt]

@honeyt

Id love to hear more about the matchups, especially the elves one in top8. I always find it hard to win against them, playing without swords doesn't make it any easier

2x Garruk - How well did he preform?

[Yoric]

@Yoric: I promise you, if I have a DRS on board, and you have a Rector on board, I will NEVER let you resolve the trigger. No matter what. +2/-2 life is nothing compared to a boarded Deed or Future Sight.


... And I said I'm fine with that.

Our deck is one that thrives in the late game. We even use two-sided ramp to get the late game going faster. If you're telling me that if I have a Rector on board you're going to stop making me lose 2 life each turn, thus allowing this deck to develop further, I am completely fine with it. Give me more turns to naturally draw that Deed, or an Abrupt Decay or Swords or whatever it takes. The longer the game goes, the more favored I am; and if you're holding back on your DRS because of my Rector, so be it.

The point about DRS being worse because of his prevalence is well taken. I just don't have the fear you all seem to have.

[TiMeWaLk]

Hey guys, long time no post! It's good to be back at a computer!

As RandomGestures has informed you all, I recently won a GPT for Denver with GB Nic Fit. Here's the list for reference:

Deck (61):

Lands (23):
4 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (14):
1 Acidic Slime
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

Spells (24):
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize

Here's a short matchup run-down:

R1 vs Miracles 2-0
R2 vs Junk 1-1-1
R3 vs The Epic Storm 2-1
R4 ID into Top 4
Semifinals vs Elves 2-0
Finals vs Dredge 2-1

I can go into more detail about card choices, the matchups and/or sideboarding later if anyone is interested!

Actually, I am very interested :)

If you have time I would like to know your in//outs for each match you played. I have also several questions about your lists:

- How good was Titan + Treetops ?
- Is grave titan good enough to be in the list? It is the only creature that you cannot tutor.
- Why GB without splash? You feel that the GB version does not need it?
- Slime better than Wickerbough Elder? Which land do you fear?

I would have many others, but I don't want to flood you :-D

TW

[ugotpauld]

hello, i'm new here.
i've been playing nic fit on and off since it was a deck, though i'm by no means an expert on it.

i recently decided to make an intuition deck, the way it turned out ended up using the veteran explorer engine to power up its grindy gameplay.

this is the list i'm running currently, its definitely not ideal, i've only played a few games with it. and i want to see what people can do with it as its powerful and very fun to play (if you like grinding)

the manabase isn't ideal, you can lose games to multiple wastelands (weird for a deck with life from the loam and 7 basics :p)

UGBW intuitive wish fit

creatures (6)
1 x eternal witness
1 x primeval titan
1 x qasili pridemage
2 x veteran explorer
1 x wall of blossoms

enchantment (3)
3 x pernicious deed

instant (5)
1 x counterspell
4 x intuition

lands (24)
1 x barren moor
1 x bayou
1 x flooded strand
2 x forest
2 x island
1 x marsh flats
1 x misty rainforest
1 x phyrexian tower
1 x plains
1 x polluted delta
1 x savannah
1 x scrubland
2 x swamp
1 x tanquil thicket
1 x tropical island
1 x tundra
1 x underground sea
2 x verdant catacombs
1 x volrath's stronghold
1 x wasteland

planeswalker (3)
3 x jace, the mind sculptor

sorcery (20)
4 x cabal therapy
1 x crippling fatigue
1 x deep analysis
2 x green sun's zenith
1 x life from the loam
3 x lingering souls
4 x living wish
1 x raven's crime
1 x regrowth
1 x unburial rites
1 x vindicate

sideboard
veteran explorer
eternal witness
shriekmaw
phantasmal image
soul snuffers
spike weaver
quasili pridemage
kitchen finks
phyrexian revoker
grave titan

rest in peace

bojuka bog
phyrexian tower
volrath's stronghold
wasteland

possible sideboard
ethersworn canonist (it is really powerful against you, so maybe not)
kataki, war's sage
mystic snake
grand abolisher
thalia, guardian of thraben
baleful strix
false prophet

lonely sandbar
karakas

+ any one of insta win card you can think of

things of note.
unburial rites doesn't seem very good, but i'm not too sure.

i think the deck only needs 2 lingering souls.

intuition can search for regrowth + witness + any card can get anything. making sideboard cards better
vindicate is incredible in the deck, there should probably be a second (there are a virtual 7 eternal witness's in the deck + 4 intuition)

intuition can get a lot of very powerful situation things, none of which are too bad on their own. (deep analysis isn't very good in hand until late game)

the deck may need extra counterspells and thoughtseize effects.

there mana in the deck is not very good currently, the only game i lost due to this is when i was wastelanded multiple times (other wasteland games i won due to explorer)

give it a try, its fun.

[edits]
rest in peace is terrible to bring in, only bring in for dredge.

ethersworn cannonist is actually very important, it probably should be in the sideboard, just expect a slower and harder game to win.

soul snuffers is GOOD

jace, the mind sculptor, better than all

deathrite shaman is good against this deck.

[SirTylerGalt]

i recently decided to make an intuition deck, the way it turned out ended up using the veteran explorer engine to power up its grindy gameplay.



Welcome :)

If you are interested in BUGw Nic Fit with Intuition, you might want to look at Bruizar's list from a hundred pages ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=667371&viewfull=1#post667371

There was some discussion of the list in the following pages, which I found really interesting. Some disagreed and thought Gifts Ungiven was a better fit (!) for Nic Fit, but I really like Intuition.

Here is a version with Abrupt Decay I was playtesting a few weeks


4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Diabolic Intent

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay


1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Unburial Rites
1 Unearth

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Griselbrand
1 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Palinchron
1 Scavenging Ooze


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scrubland

SB: 2 Kederekt Leviathan
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Phantasmal Image
SB: 1 Ifh-Bíff Efreet
SB: 1 Thragtusk


PS: you should consider adding punctuation, I had a hard time reading your post.

[cheerios]

Hi Guys,

New GB Nic Fit player here shifting from thresh. Any tips on the sideboarding strategy vs dredge and combo (preferably cloudpost and storm)? Appreciate any inputs. Thanks!

[litenkatt]

Played the GB version in a torunament yesterday. Got to top 8 where I lost to goblins (!!).

Short report

r1 death&taxes (he won the tournament)

g1 He had revokers on top and deed and I didn't remove them when I would with abrupt decay etc. I played real bad this game
g2 Deeds, darkblast(this card is sick!) and finish it off with a titan
g3 Same as g2
1-0

r2 hightide

g1 He crushed me, couldnt do shit
g2 I boarded in 3 hymn, 3 duress and 4 extirpate. I discarded everything he had, extirpated hightide, time spiral and something more. He couldn't win on storm, but he eventually killed me with Augur of Bolas that he brought in from sb. Yeah, you heard it right a hightide deck won on beatdowns(this guy later lost in finals)
1-1

r3 BW with confidants, lingering souls, stoneforge etc

g1 Deeds + Abyssal presecutor + volrath's stronghold
g2 I remember the stronghold did some work here too, really impressed with that card
2-1

r4 uw miracles
g1 He plays jace turn 5. I cast lots of creatures but he swords/terminus them all. Eventually I get the two towers engine going and this game goes to time without anyone winning haha...
2-1-1

r5 Stoneforge with jace
g1 Thrun gets there! so good against jace
g2 Goes to time, phew.. he would have won if he had one more turn.
3-1-1

top8

r1 goblins
g1 Couldn't find dead. He had many goblins. Lots of goblins..
g2 Engineered Plague + Darkblast :D
g3 Mull to 5 and couldnt find any deed/damnation

3-2-1

Best cards of the day
Volrath's Stronghold
Abyssal Presecutor
Abrupt Decay

Worst:
Kitchen Finks
Thragtusk

[ugotpauld]

Welcome :)

If you are interested in BUGw Nic Fit with Intuition, you might want to look at Bruizar's list from a hundred pages ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=667371&viewfull=1#post667371

There was some discussion of the list in the following pages, which I found really interesting. Some disagreed and thought Gifts Ungiven was a better fit (!) for Nic Fit, but I really like Intuition.

Here is a version with Abrupt Decay I was playtesting a few weeks

that seems really cool, i think i'll give it a try.

would geths verdict be good for the deck instead of leviathon? as it seems like a better card to randomly draw, and instant wins just like kederect leviathon does when you combo.

[TheArchitect]

Hi Guys,

New GB Nic Fit player here shifting from thresh. Any tips on the sideboarding strategy vs dredge and combo (preferably cloudpost and storm)? Appreciate any inputs. Thanks!

In GB, Id recommend a scavenging ooze maindeck, and possibly 2-3 deathrite shamans. That with the addition of 2-3 GY hate cards in the SB should be more than enough. Deed, and all out sac effects we have make dredge a pretty good matchup. For the GY hate cards, id suggest extipates as they are decent vs combo and even miracles too. Nihil Spellbomb is probably the next best option if you want to do a split between that and extipate.

Cloudpost I dont really play against ever, but from what Ive hread its pretty unbeatable. Our best way to stop their plan is probably Memocide/cranial extraction on emrakul, then Ulamog. Discard is also a decent way to interact with them.

Against storm the best way to shut them down is discard followed up by a big storm hate card, ideally nether void, but dedicating ~3 slots in your SB for Nether Void probably isnt worth it. While they can still play through Ichneumon Druid, you can use him as a 1 of instead of a 3 of in the SB. Also, cranial/memocide on their wishes, then tutors, if its TES and if its ANT just name tendrils of agony and they lose.

Also, just against any combo deck in general G2/3: bring in every single card that can interact with them and stop them from comboing out. Side out all but one GSZ-able thats only job is a clock (so take out prime titans, garruks, thruns, Garruks, etc). You win by first making it impossible for them to win, and then just beat them down with ewits or a thragtusk.

It depends on your MD but I would use something like this for my SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate (awesome vs combo of any form)
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Hymn to Tourach (awesome vs combo of any form)
1 Ichneumon Druid
2 Cranial Extraction/Memoricide (awesome vs combo of any form)
1 Acidic Slime

Somewhere in your 75, you probably want 2-4 Thoughtsieze, scavenging ooze for combo/GY decks. And to help with UW, garruk primal hunter and phyrexian arena.

[Arianrhod]

So, yeah. I was durdlin =)

Here's the monstrosity. Note before you actually look at it that staring at this much greed for too long might cause blindness.


4x Veteran Explorer
2x Cabal Therapy

2x Pernicious Deed
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Innocent Blood

1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime

2x Chromatic Lantern
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Etched Oracle
1x Mindslaver

4x Standstill
3x Gifts Ungiven

1x Unburial Rites
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Eternal Witness
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
1x Rune-Scarred Demon

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Academy Ruins
1x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory

2x City of Brass

2x Forest
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

4x Bayou
3x Tropical Island

--SB:
4x Spell Pierce
1x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
1x Mindbreak Trap

1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Extirpate
1x Surgical Extraction

1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

3x Slaughter Games
1x Mountain


I thought I was actually going to have a good day when I beat RUG in round 1. My next four rounds, however, were all combo decks -- and it quickly proved that my sideboard was insufficient. Sneak, Reanimator, Manaless, and TES, in that order. I put up a good fight against all of them, but I just couldn't get there. I ended 2-3 after beating the Reanimator player off of a misplay.

I have a few things to take away from this.

I have -no- idea what the proper shell should look like, but 5-color is probably viable. Chromatic Lantern is real. Gifts Ungiven is as mighty as ever, but it's only good against fair decks. It -can- answer problematic situations if you get yourself into them, (like a Show and Tell'd Emrakul), but it's useless on the stack, and most quality targets, like Innocent Blood, are sorceries.

Now, beyond that: Factory and Standstill were AMAZING. Nic Fit is always ahead on board state, so Standstill is almost never a dead draw. Why put two cards back when you can just draw them? It's not like Nic Fit doesn't have the resources to use the extra cards. It's entirely possible that there is some kind of Veteran-fueled Bugstill list somewhere to be uncovered. Standstill also functions as kind of a back-up ramp engine, in a weird way, since it buys you the time to make your land drops. Or, if they break it immediately, it increases the chances that you'll draw into an Explorer and then get your ramp from there. A lot of the stuff in this list was beyond greedy and meant more for fair matchups anyway -- like I never got to Etched Oracle, and I never got to Mindslaver. But....oh well. I make no excuses nor apologies, because I had fun. I would have liked another fair deck or two, but it's fine. Now I guess I need to do something more serious for Jupiter next week, lol.

[Viridia]

Arian, honestly, you just made the deck of my dreams :laugh:
I've been wanting to play Standstills in Nic-Fit for months, but never got around to actually making a list, now i just have to tune it ^^
(Now if there was a tournament that's not too far away more often then once every 2 months i could actually statsify my need of playing DeedStill, Combo and Nic-Fit all the time >.>)

[TheArchitect]

Ive been playtesting a lot more lately and been wondering. How are people beating BUG Delver and Junk with scapewish? Both decks are making a big comeback with the printing of deathrite shaman and abrupt decay and I cant seem to beat either deck pre or post board.

RUG delver was a bye, but BUG actually plays good cards. Hymn to tourach is brutal against us since we cant even afford discarding lands. Bob refills their hand if we manage to deed/bonfire them. We dont have any way to deal with a tombstalker really. Burning wish>pulse/damnation doesnt cut it, especially when they have countermagic backup. Their 4 MD Deathrite, stops our therapys, volraths stronghold/ewit shinnanigans and gives the deck the reach that RUG hasnt had since they dropped lavamancer.

Junk has the 4 MD deathrights and bobs, tons of discard, G2/3 teegs, and knights which rush to fetch up 4 wastelands. And probably worst of all: Liliana of the veil, who they just +1 till they can kill half our lands (and any creatures that stick around).


Any have ideas how we can improve our success against those 2 decks?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I've come to a realization that as a primarily green deck, Nic Fit is very much more about winning games via attrition than other decks. Eternal Witness, The Two Towers, etc. all augment our already strong late game by making sure we can force our way through countermagic and killspells.

Having said that, anything that prevents us from grinding out the win is definitely something to watch out for, and DRS is a card to be wary of.

As such: what are weaknesses of DRS?

[HoneyT]

As per request, I have posted a tournament report on my recent GPT win.

Here's the link:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25169-GPT-Win-with-GB-Nic-Fit-Lincoln-NE-12-1-12&p=690437#post690437

To answer some questions:

@TimeWalk:

-Titan into Treetops is awesome in this slow metagame. In a faster/more aggro metagame I don't like it as much but it's great right now.
-Grave Titan is the most cuttable creature right now for sure, but he still pulls his weight. He's easy enough to dig up when you need him. He finishes the game in a hurry and clogs the board vs the creature decks.
-As for the splash, I don't think it's necessary. I don't want to weaken the manabase when I can do everything I want to with just two colors.
-Right now I like Slime more than Wickerbough. The most problematic land is Karakas keeping opposing Vendilion Cliques safe. But it also makes the Turbo Eldrazi matchup not an auto loss especially if you can get Slime + Two Towers going.

@litenkatt:

The Garruks are insane as per usual. With this meta, being able to out grind the Miracles/Stoneblade/Other various control decks is just invaluble.

@ELC

The Decay/Pulse split was fine though with the resurgence of BUG and Tombstalker in particular, I'm considering switching the removal suite to include some number of Go For the Throats. Time and testing will tell if it's needed or not.

Any other questions or concerns feel free to ask!

[TheArchitect]

I've come to a realization that as a primarily green deck, Nic Fit is very much more about winning games via attrition than other decks. Eternal Witness, The Two Towers, etc. all augment our already strong late game by making sure we can force our way through countermagic and killspells.

Having said that, anything that prevents us from grinding out the win is definitely something to watch out for, and DRS is a card to be wary of.

As such: what are weaknesses of DRS?

While DRS is definitely good against us, tombstalker, discard (which is much better than countermagic against us), teegs and bobs are equally if not more scary.

I've been considering Nihil Spellbomb or even Relic of Progenitus might help a lot since it takes away DRS gas, and shrinks their big beats goyfs and KotR/tombstalker respectively. The draw of them is really nice too. Leyline of the void might be decent too, they cant really remove it, but probably not worth the card. DRS and goyf still get power from our GY.

[Cire_dk]

@TheArchitect and EpicLevelCommander

I played the Belgium Legacy championship yesterday with scapewish . (report to follow tonight) and faced several decks with DRS. For me it never was much hassle. They might gain some life , I might loose some but they seemed to rely so much on their Shaman that it was easy to disrupt. Deed, Abrubt Decay It might have stalled a game a bit but that is in our advantage. By the time DRS is active we often have aleady played cabal therapy including flashback to sack explorer. I won all games when facing DRS. Of course everyone has his own experiences but I think we do not have to worry to much, just be aware of it :laugh:

Liliana is also a great abrubt decay target. Since I boarded out wood elves and Sakura tribe elder. I might remove 2 of them for maindeck abrubt decay. This will also help against RUG and UW delver to gain some time to set up our game plan. ( 2 more abrubt from SB would be nice) More on that in my report.

[Cire_dk]

I played scapewish this weekend. I used Arianrhods list but in the SB I swapped 2 thoughtseize for 2 Abrubt decay.

There were 86 people and I went 4-3-0 after loosing the first 3 games. Finished outside TOP 16 for prizes. ( TOP 8, 6 combo decks!!)
So here is my short report.

Round 1 Blue red Delver 0-2

Game 1:
Im on the draw. Within 3 turns he has played 3 goblin guides and dealt damage with thunderous wrath and bolts. I quickly die.

Game 2: Before I can get anything going he gets 2 flipped delvers in play and a few bolts do the rest.

0-1-0

Round 2 RUG Delver 0-2

Game 1: I am not able to get anything going because most actions are stifled or countered. A Goyf, Flipped Delver and 2 mongoose seal my fate

-2 Wood Elves, -1 sakura +2 REB, +1 Pyrokenisis

Game 2: I have to mull to 5 and still do not manage to keep a good hand. My opponents stifle does the rest so no chance at all.

0-2-0

Round 3 TES 0-2

Game 1: Although I manage to Bonfire 14 goblin tokens. TES does what TES does so thats it.
Game 2: TES goes of turn 2 so game over.

0-3-0

Round 4 UW Control with counterbalance 2-0

Game 1: At one point I wish for a Tsunami which he tries to play around. This gives me the uppertunity to Scapewish for lethal.

-1 Sakura. -2 Wood elves, -1 Deed, -1 Veteran + 2 REB, +1 Pyrokenesis, + 2 Abrupt Decay

Game 2: After depleting his counters I can scapewish for the win.

1-3-0

Round 5 UW Midrange 2-0

Game 1: Manage to get early board control because my opponent keeps a one lander. Huntmaster Thragtusk and Primeval Titan do the rest.

SB as before

Game 2: cant remember but scapewish and extra mountain form the top seal the deal.

2-3-0

Round 6 POX 1-0

Game 1: my opponent has an early DRS and disrupt my graveyard a bit. The pace of the game is slow enough to get a valakut online and gradually beat him down. He has to waste to valakuts to survive. My Primeval titan manages to accumulate about 19 lands in the end but Maze of Ith prevents damage. A bonfire from the top does 18 damage :tongue:

Game 2: ran out of time

3-3-0

Round 7 BUG control 2-0

Game 1: Beatdown with Huntmaster en Titan I finish with 20 life.

Game 2 : After a good start the game is taking a bad turn and my opponent beats me down with Mischra and Creeping Tarpit. With me being at 1 life and he on 17 I topdeck scapewish for the win. :cool:

4-3-0

After Thoughts:

Wood Elves and Sakura have not been brilliant. Against fast aggro decks like delver, I would love some extra disruption.
DRS was never a real problem
Tsunami is great, they cannot ignore it. As my opponent found out when he wanted to thoughseize my Tsunami you keep priority after burning wish resolves :smile:
Bonfire is great but 2 of them is enough in my opinion.

Since we have little chance against combo I was wondering if we need to abandon SB plans against it and focus more on disrupting very fast decks to make our overall chances to win a bit better.

Comments and thoughts are of course welcome.

[Arianrhod]

I played scapewish this weekend. I used Arianrhods list but in the SB I swapped 2 thoughtseize for 2 Abrubt decay.

There were 86 people and I went 4-3-0 after loosing the first 3 games. Finished outside TOP 16 for prizes. ( TOP 8, 6 combo decks!!)
So here is my short report.

Round 1 Blue red Delver 0-2

Game 1:
Im on the draw. Within 3 turns he has played 3 goblin guides and dealt damage with thunderous wrath and bolts. I quickly die.

Game 2: Before I can get anything going he gets 2 flipped delvers in play and a few bolts do the rest.

0-1-0

Round 2 RUG Delver 0-2

Game 1: I am not able to get anything going because most actions are stifled or countered. A Goyf, Flipped Delver and 2 mongoose seal my fate

-2 Wood Elves, -1 sakura +2 REB, +1 Pyrokenisis

Game 2: I have to mull to 5 and still do not manage to keep a good hand. My opponents stifle does the rest so no chance at all.

0-2-0

Round 3 TES 0-2

Game 1: Although I manage to Bonfire 14 goblin tokens. TES does what TES does so thats it.
Game 2: TES goes of turn 2 so game over.

0-3-0

Round 4 UW Control with counterbalance 2-0

Game 1: At one point I wish for a Tsunami which he tries to play around. This gives me the uppertunity to Scapewish for lethal.

-1 Sakura. -2 Wood elves, -1 Deed, -1 Veteran + 2 REB, +1 Pyrokenesis, + 2 Abrupt Decay

Game 2: After depleting his counters I can scapewish for the win.

1-3-0

Round 5 UW Midrange 2-0

Game 1: Manage to get early board control because my opponent keeps a one lander. Huntmaster Thragtusk and Primeval Titan do the rest.

SB as before

Game 2: cant remember but scapewish and extra mountain form the top seal the deal.

2-3-0

Round 6 POX 1-0

Game 1: my opponent has an early DRS and disrupt my graveyard a bit. The pace of the game is slow enough to get a valakut online and gradually beat him down. He has to waste to valakuts to survive. My Primeval titan manages to accumulate about 19 lands in the end but Maze of Ith prevents damage. A bonfire from the top does 18 damage :tongue:

Game 2: ran out of time

3-3-0

Round 7 BUG control 2-0

Game 1: Beatdown with Huntmaster en Titan I finish with 20 life.

Game 2 : After a good start the game is taking a bad turn and my opponent beats me down with Mischra and Creeping Tarpit. With me being at 1 life and he on 17 I topdeck scapewish for the win. :cool:

4-3-0

After Thoughts:

Wood Elves and Sakura have not been brilliant. Against fast aggro decks like delver, I would love some extra disruption.
DRS was never a real problem
Tsunami is great, they cannot ignore it. As my opponent found out when he wanted to thoughseize my Tsunami you keep priority after burning wish resolves :smile:
Bonfire is great but 2 of them is enough in my opinion.

Since we have little chance against combo I was wondering if we need to abandon SB plans against it and focus more on disrupting very fast decks to make our overall chances to win a bit better.

Comments and thoughts are of course welcome.

The reason Wood Elves and Sakura haven't been amazing for you is that you keep siding them out, lol. Not only are their a backup ramp source for the deck, they serve a much more important need: they color-fix. For a deck that doesn't run Fetchlands, this is a -big- deal. Pretty much any hand with a Forest is keepable, because of Explorer, Tribe-Elder, Elves, and Zenith for any of the above. Considering the constraints that Valakut and Explorer each put on your mana base, having the ability to color-fix with any of a number of green creatures is a very important feature.

I do agree with you that the sideboard for Scapewish as presented in my sig currently is out-dated. I am unsure of the extent to which Scapewish cares about Junk, since I've not tested the matchup, but I do feel that BUG should be fairly easy. It's a tighter matchup than RUG is, for sure, but I have to believe that it's still in our favor. The more worrying factor is the stark increase in combo decks that we've seen of late. Most of the SCG top 8 this week was combo. I played vs 4 combo decks at Mythic, which used to be a bastion of fairness. Jupiter's tipping more combo-heavy lately. 6/8 at Cire's event were combo. And so forth. Combo is very much on the rise again, and Scapewish's board is going to have to alter to deal with that -- while Rector's needs to adapt to Deathrite Shaman. I do believe that the maindecks for both are still correct, though. I do have some thoughts regarding the sideboards for both versions, but I am going to withhold that technology for the time being, since I have Jupiter in a few days. Once I provide my report from Jupiter, I will of course provide all of the information, my thoughts on how it worked, and update the links in my sig for you guys - I just don't want to take a chance on leaking sensitive information, since I know a lot of the Jupiter/Elmira locals check this thread :P

Did anyone see Chris Higashi's build from SCG? He got a deck tech, but only finished in the 40s somewhere after drawing on camera with BUGStill. I feel that a large part of his top 64 finish is because he's gotten to a point where he's played Nic Fit for long enough now that he can throw together subpar lists and do well with them. I really mean no offense, but that list looks horrible. I do think that Deathrite Shaman as a backup ramp source is perfectly legit, especially for a list that's not running Recurring Nightmare (which is a good reason for wanting Sakura-Tribe Elder). I actually have considered trimming 1 Tribe-Elder from Rector in favor of 1 maindeck Deathrite Shaman. It's something that would need testing, but I think I'm cautiously a fan of the idea.

Anyway, Chris's list. Ifh-Bifh is sweet. Silklash is not. Deranged Hermit is never the answer, especially without Nightmare OR Stronghold. I can't adequately express my hatred for Dryad Arbor in Nic Fit. I actually don't have a problem with Strangleroot Geist. Hornet Queen still makes me vomit. His sideboard actually seems sweet.

From listening to his deck tech, I DO agree that there should be an aggro Nic Fit somewhere, and I do agree that cards like Strangleroot should be pretty near to the heart of it. But I feel that there are better options than Silklash, Hermit, and Queen. Primeval Titan into 2 Towers and/or Treetops is still sweet technology for straight G/B - way better than Queen. Silklash is a fine sideboard option, but I feel it's overkill with Ifh-Biff already in the deck -- especially if you incorporate the Two Towers. Hermit and Arbor could easily be a Treetop and a Stronghold and nothing would be missed. Or you could even put the Teeg maindeck to try to combat combo a bit more. If you draw it g1 you can still cast it with Deathrite, so it's cool. If you want another 5-drop beater, why not Kodama? Why not Wolfir Silverheart? But yeah. Chris has obviously transcended to the "good Nic Fit player" status, so props to him for sticking with it and moneying with the archetype at SCG for the....third time, now? Fourth? Something like that. Hopefully he wanders through and gives us a report.

[pfiremc13]

Actually curious how Misthollow Griffin paired with Food Chain would work out in a Nic Fit shell.

I've been looking at this thread for a while without an account, but this sparked my interest enough to actually get an account and make a post :tongue:

So here's my idea for an infinigriffin nic fit deck:

4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Academy Rector
2 Food Chain
1 Misthollow Griffin
2 Eternal Witness
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sun Titan
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
1 moat
1 faith's fetters
2 abrupt decay

I'm not really sure what the manabase would look like yet. Deathrite shaman can exile your own misthollow griffin from your graveyard. Sun titan is there to create gifts piles that automatically get you both griffin and food chain (EWit, titan, food chain, griffin). I think mulldrifter should go in here, but I have no idea where to put it. Suggestions appreciated :smile:

[Kich867]

The reason Wood Elves and Sakura haven't been amazing for you is that you keep siding them out, lol. Not only are their a backup ramp source for the deck, they serve a much more important need: they color-fix. For a deck that doesn't run Fetchlands, this is a -big- deal. Pretty much any hand with a Forest is keepable, because of Explorer, Tribe-Elder, Elves, and Zenith for any of the above. Considering the constraints that Valakut and Explorer each put on your mana base, having the ability to color-fix with any of a number of green creatures is a very important feature.

I do agree with you that the sideboard for Scapewish as presented in my sig currently is out-dated. I am unsure of the extent to which Scapewish cares about Junk, since I've not tested the matchup, but I do feel that BUG should be fairly easy. It's a tighter matchup than RUG is, for sure, but I have to believe that it's still in our favor. The more worrying factor is the stark increase in combo decks that we've seen of late. Most of the SCG top 8 this week was combo. I played vs 4 combo decks at Mythic, which used to be a bastion of fairness. Jupiter's tipping more combo-heavy lately. 6/8 at Cire's event were combo. And so forth. Combo is very much on the rise again, and Scapewish's board is going to have to alter to deal with that -- while Rector's needs to adapt to Deathrite Shaman. I do believe that the maindecks for both are still correct, though. I do have some thoughts regarding the sideboards for both versions, but I am going to withhold that technology for the time being, since I have Jupiter in a few days. Once I provide my report from Jupiter, I will of course provide all of the information, my thoughts on how it worked, and update the links in my sig for you guys - I just don't want to take a chance on leaking sensitive information, since I know a lot of the Jupiter/Elmira locals check this thread :P

Did anyone see Chris Higashi's build from SCG? He got a deck tech, but only finished in the 40s somewhere after drawing on camera with BUGStill. I feel that a large part of his top 64 finish is because he's gotten to a point where he's played Nic Fit for long enough now that he can throw together subpar lists and do well with them. I really mean no offense, but that list looks horrible. I do think that Deathrite Shaman as a backup ramp source is perfectly legit, especially for a list that's not running Recurring Nightmare (which is a good reason for wanting Sakura-Tribe Elder). I actually have considered trimming 1 Tribe-Elder from Rector in favor of 1 maindeck Deathrite Shaman. It's something that would need testing, but I think I'm cautiously a fan of the idea.

Anyway, Chris's list. Ifh-Bifh is sweet. Silklash is not. Deranged Hermit is never the answer, especially without Nightmare OR Stronghold. I can't adequately express my hatred for Dryad Arbor in Nic Fit. I actually don't have a problem with Strangleroot Geist. Hornet Queen still makes me vomit. His sideboard actually seems sweet.

From listening to his deck tech, I DO agree that there should be an aggro Nic Fit somewhere, and I do agree that cards like Strangleroot should be pretty near to the heart of it. But I feel that there are better options than Silklash, Hermit, and Queen. Primeval Titan into 2 Towers and/or Treetops is still sweet technology for straight G/B - way better than Queen. Silklash is a fine sideboard option, but I feel it's overkill with Ifh-Biff already in the deck -- especially if you incorporate the Two Towers. Hermit and Arbor could easily be a Treetop and a Stronghold and nothing would be missed. Or you could even put the Teeg maindeck to try to combat combo a bit more. If you draw it g1 you can still cast it with Deathrite, so it's cool. If you want another 5-drop beater, why not Kodama? Why not Wolfir Silverheart? But yeah. Chris has obviously transcended to the "good Nic Fit player" status, so props to him for sticking with it and moneying with the archetype at SCG for the....third time, now? Fourth? Something like that. Hopefully he wanders through and gives us a report.

I agree, I actually threw together a G/B nic fit list recently that was probably by far my favorite. It felt very, very strong. I've since moved on to junk, as a friend put it: "It's the deck you're meant to play" (he was right, never felt so at home haha, but me playing anything G/B is me at home so..)..

If I recall the list..

//Creatures: 15
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Wolfir Silverheart
2x Grave Titan
1x Acidic Slime

// Spells: 14
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
4x Green Sun's Zenith

// Planeswalkers: 3
3x Garruk Relentless (The Motherfucking All-Star)

// Artifacts: 3
3x Sensei's Divining Top

// Enchantments: 3
3x Pernicious Deed

// Lands: 22
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
3x Swamp

That's 59 cards from memory, the 60th was a singleton that I cannot remember.. I feel like it was a creature, I'll grab the guts of the deck tomorrow and find it. But the important part is that Garruk Relentless shits synergy with the deck and given my experience, blows Primal Hunter away. The feeling of sheer dominance when he hit the board was unreal. Veteran Explorers and Dryad Arbor's turn into grave titans. That's actually insane. Very, very few decks (with very, very specifically god-like draws) can handle back to back and sometimes--to back grave titans. Everything in the deck felt like a puzzle piece that convenient fit with every other piece. Lots of mana made oozes good, garruk made dead cards into win conditions and flooded the board, silverheart made explorer and deathrite forces to be reckoned with. There were always a plethora of sac-outlets for massive value, there was so many more ways to just tutor what I needed to win between Garruk, Empath, and GSZ, I never felt out of options with the deck like I used to.

If I had to play Nic Fit for awhile, I would personally use the above list. It was almost enough for me to not build Dwayne Johnson. Obvious tweaks being -1 Baloth for Thragtusk and whatever that 60th card was might change, I can't remember if it was spicy as shit or just something I was playing for fun..

*Edit* Last card was acidic slime, kills problems and chumps arbitrarily large creatures for the win.

[Nihilis]

Went 4-2-1 at the Belgian Legacy Cup this weekend, placing 22nd out of 86 with the following list:

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay

3 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Acidic Slime
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Mwonvuli Beast Tracker
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Flesbag Marauder
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
1 Cranial Extraction
3 Duress
1 Memoricide

I was actually planning on playing BWg Stoneblade, but my duals got stuck in transit (it took them half a month and they arrived the day after the tournament, FML), so I went with GB Nic Fit. The list isn't exactly optimal, but I had very little time to prepare (I actually assembled the deck on the tournament site itself) because I had only just gotten back from a very tiring trip via bus to the CERN and ILL/ESRF institutes in Geneve and Grenoble respectively. I was actually contemplating on not going to the tournament because I knew I was going to missplay horribly due to being tired (and boy did I), but my brother and several other of my friends were going so I went anyway.

Round 1: GRb Combo Elves with Goblin Bombardment and Bloodbraid Elves, basically using Glimpse of Nature to draw a few cards and just go all aggro. It played quite a few 4+ CMC creatures (including Immaculate Magistrate) and quite a few lords.
G1: I blow his board away a few times with Deed but fail to find a threat in 5+ turns of topdecking. I eventually get some board presence and drop him to 11 when he finds an Ezuri and is capable of activating it twice to swing for lethal.
G2: I discard quite a few cards from his hand, but for some reason I let him keep a Krosan Grip. I then put Pernicious Deed into play like a total tool and obviously he destroys it. After going back and forth, he eventually attacks with his entire board, including a non-kicked and a 2 times kicked Joraga Warcaller. I block a few of his creatures dead, including the kicked Warcaller (or so I think). His next turn I realise there are still +1/+1 counters on his creatures (he placed counters on all his creatures to show they have +2/+2 from the Warcaller). He insists I didn't specify which Warcaller I blocked, while it was obvious for me I blocked the one with the counters (I also have a bit of a photographic memory and remembered the Jorage with the counters to be the one I killed). We call in the judge and he calls in my favor because it was actually illegal to place those counters due to being confusing. We end up going to time, he finds an Elvish Champion and then forestwalks me to death.

Round 2: UG enchantress bounce.
I started this round 7 minutes late because they actually paired me up wrong (the judges gave me a win for the previous round instead of a loss, I went to tell them and it took some time to get sorted out).
G1: I discard some of his hand, land a Grave Titan and drop a Deed. He stops paying for his Elephant Grass and dies quickly.
G2: I am incapable of finding a Deed, not matter how hard I digged. I eventually drop him to 5 with Kodama (who was amazing all day), but the next turn he starts going off. He bounces my entire board and kills me with Emrakul. Time was called during his combo'ing out, so our game ends in a draw.
A single deed would've won me the game. Quite frustrating.

Round 3: BUG Control
G1: I IoK, he brainstorms and shows me 1 brainstorm and 2 abrupt decay. I take the storm and cabal the abrupts the next turn. Then I blow up his bayou and his tropical island with acidic slime, but just end up topdecking land after land. He eventually drops Jace, I find a GSZ and go for Kodama. I end up attacking Jace twice, but in hindsight I should've just attacked my opponent. I guess my fear of Jace got the better of me. I drop him to 2 life, but he manages to recover with mishra's factory and life from the loam droping me from 16 to 0.
G2: He fails to deal me any damage and I actually end with 25 life. Time is once again called, so no G3 and the round ends in a draw. My opponent decides to drop and gives me the win.
While not an easy matchup, it still felt highly winnable. Manlands are still the Achilles' heel of this deck though.

Round 4: Esper Blade
G1: I play explorer but he goes farming. I draw a therapy but it gets countered. I then drop another explorer, fall asleep and completely forget the therapy in my graveyard. He draws another swords and my explorer goes farming again. I have a hand with garruk, kodama and grave titan but can't land them due to only having 3 lands. Batterskull happens and I lose, while I really shouldn't have.
G2: He has an answer for everything and beats me with a batterskulled Clique.

Round 5: The Gate
G1: I do what this deck does against his and quickly win. His swarm of creatures and equipments is nothing against the Deed.
G2: Same story

Round 6: BUG Delver
Didn't write a lot down this match, but it felt like an easier version of RUG because they don't have acces to burn. Won 2-0.

Round 7: UB Omniscience
G1: He drops a land and a lotus petal and I know I'm against a combodeck. He drops Omniscience the next turn and kills me.
G2: I play IoK and see his hand of 2 Omniscience 2 Show and Tell and 1 Griselbrand. FUCK. I take a Show. Next turn I duress taking the other show. I draw a Witness, take the duress back and play it. He now has 3 Omniscience in his hand. I take one. Next turn GSZ->Witness-> Duress and he once again has 3 Omniscience in his hand. I take another. A few turns happen and I draw a therapy, play it naming Omniscience. He shows me his hand of 3 Griselbrand and 2 Omniscience. I flashback the therapy and he scoops due to frustration (apparently his deck had been running like this for the entire day, poor guy).
G3: I discard his hand a bit, but he ends up dropping a Omniscience via Show. I GSZ for Acidic Slime, kill the Omni and Extirpate it. He scoops.

Carpet of Flowers was, as per usual, great. Acidic Slime was also an allstar simply by being able to blow up those fragile land bases that are running these days. Kodama was also great, though I often wished he had been a 6/5. Although Garruk is pretty great, I'm going to drop to 2 again. I'm also going to try to acquire a Primeval Titan and run a few Treetop's.

Even though the field was litteraly crawling with BUG (I was surrounded by 5 Deathrites at a certain point), none made the top 8 and the final ended up being fought out by two sneaky show decks.

[Firepaw3]

Heres my tournament report for 12th at scg baltimore, sorry its pretty vague, i dident take very good notes and managed to forget to make the report for a week
I was playing a slightly older version of arianrhod's scapewish

R1 miracles 2-1
Game 1 I lead with the classic therapy to veteran, ramp to 7 and scapeshift for the win
In: 2 arena 3 carpet of flowers
Out : 1 veteran 2 bonfire 1 woodelves 1 cabal therapy
I feel boarding in wish targes is really risky, it means you have to draw your answers when you need them, so i opted to keep the wishes in
Game 2 he stops my greensuns and lands a jace, i valakut jace away and he plays another one next turn and manages to ultimate it
Games 3 we had 6 minutes left on the clock so i played really quickly. I kept a hand with land land wish therapy veteran arena
Therapy hit a brainstorm and vet resolved, hitting snapcaster he managed to get top and counterbalance online, i resolved a deed and blew it up, next turn i resolved a thragtusk, he couldent deal with it and i won in turns
R2 dredge 0-2
I dont remember much of this game but he destroyed me, had the nuts g1 and g2 i dident draw enough gas to get out from under the horde
R3 stoneblade 2-1
G1 i kept 6 with wish gsz bayou badlands top thragtusk, i lead with top upkeep toped finding a veteran played and passed, he played a t2 stoneforge into batterskull, on my turn top found me a therapy for batterskull and then flashed back for snapcaster. We both durdled around for abit until i found a scapeshift
In 3 carpet 2 arena
Out 2 bonfire 1 cabal 1 veteran 1 wood elves
G2
Game two i keep a hand with carpet and double arena, he manages to counter both arenas and i dont draw any gas, jace locks it up.
G3
I keep another carpet double arena hand with veteran, and i top deck the cabal turn 2 taking 2 brainstorms out of his hand followed by a snapcaster. Arena resolves and i bury him in card advantage, won wish scapeshift.
R4 BUG landstill (with deathrite) 0-2
Game one i keep a hand with veteran burning wish top bayou swamp badlands
He counters my turn one top and plays deathrite shaman.
Next turn i draw a deed and cast veteran
He then wastes my bayou and plays a second deathrite shaman. I draw and pass, he then casts jace bouncing my veteran, i never draw another forest
In 2 carpet 2 arena
Out 1 veteran 1 cabal 2 bonfire
I dont remember much of this game but my 3 huntmasters werent enough to deal with 3 snapcasters, jace, and lilliana at the same time, he ultimates jace for the win
R5 RUG 2-1
He got me curving delver tarmo delver, countering my big spells and stifling a veteran and deed
In: carpet x3
Out cabal x2 veteran x1
G2 After he stifled a deed and 2 veterans, i topped a bonfire hitting two tarmogoyfs and a delver, 2 thragtusks wrapped it up
G3 Dont remember much of this game but i deeded his field away at 3 life and survived next turn to scapeshift for lethal
R6 Goblims 2-0
G1 I kept a hand with huntmaster veteran wish taiga badlands bayou, he led with lackey which i blocked with veteran, huntmaster bought me some time till i deeded and smashed with thragtusk.
No sideboard
G2
He managed to get 3 back to back ringleader activations after i deeded and damnnationed his board, i topped the 2nd deed a turn later, stabalized, and shapeshifted ftw
R7 RUG 2-1
Dont remember this game at all, but i know thragtusk and bonfire won me both games, same board as with other rug matchup
R8 BUG control ali antrazi 2-0
Game one he lead with land into deathrite shaman, which worried me alittle, i therapied him, hitting brainstorm seeing a lilliana, snapcaster and counterspell
Next turn i flashed it back with veteran, it got countered, i found a second therapy for lilliana, but she was brainstormed away in responce, so i hit snapcaster. He eventually had 3 snapcasters out, all from countering 3 gsz, and cast a jace, i managed to kill jace with 3 huntmasters flipping, but had to suicide them into the snapcasters later. He resolved lilliana and started to tear apart my hand, i sacrificed my top to resolve a primetitan a turn early, and got a valakut and mountain, we both played draw go until i found a fourth mountain so i could safely swing with primeval titan(killing 2 deathrites to protect it from being removed in responce to stronghold) he double blocked with mishras factorys, the second prime time got him
No sideboard
Ali mulled to 5 and i kept a 6 with GSZ wish therapy top and 2 lands
I therapied away his brainstorm and saw 2 lands and a snapcaster, after that i just started running out every threat i could, he managed to counter most of them but a huntmaster and thragtusk finnaly got him

[Blastoderm]

DRS should see no play in nic fit. It doesn't belong in the deck. Unless you like killing your own creatures with 3 or 4 deeds in the main then go for it.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

DRS should see no play in nic fit. It doesn't belong in the deck. Unless you like killing your own creatures with 3 or 4 deeds in the main then go for it.

So does Scavenging Ooze. Doesn't mean it doesn't belong in our archetype. As for deed killing our dudes or sacrificing to intent or therapy, its bound to happen anyway. Actually misplayed against a subpar dredged list because I didn't sac deathrite to therapy to get rid of bridges that I had hit with therapy.

[Blastoderm]

So does Scavenging Ooze. Doesn't mean it doesn't belong in our archetype. As for deed killing our dudes or sacrificing to intent or therapy, its bound to happen anyway. Actually misplayed against a subpar dredged list because I didn't sac deathrite to therapy to get rid of bridges that I had hit with therapy.

Ooze is one card. I guess you could fit 1 deathrite in there but anything more than 1, especially playing 3 is pretty bad.

[litenkatt]

I played 3 Deathrite shaman MD and got to 6th place (report few pages back,GB version). I love that card and wouldn't play without it

What it does
Accelerates
Almost auto win against reanimater (quite popular here)
Shrinks knight of the reliquary
Good against all loam decks, gy decks in general
Fine against burn, keeps you in the game slightley longer because of its +2 life ability
Can deal some damage
And probably the best - a must answer card. People casts STP and what not, just to get rid of it which lets you play your actual big creatures rather safe.

There are probably even more uses of it, but that's just some work it did for me.

[Arianrhod]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25334_Brad-vs-Todd-Nic-Shift-vs-BUG-Control.html

From reading the comments, this is apparently entertaining (I can't get the videos to load while I'm at work, sadly). Of course, from reading the comments, nobody understands why the deck is good, either. I'd have to watch the deck tech at least to get a better feel for Brad's feel, but the comments don't give me hope. Reasons I despair of Nic Fit ever achieving any kind of widespread popularity or professional presence: it's just too goddamn hard to master. And pros, especially, are prone to picking up a deck and tinkering with it before they run it at an event. Tinkering with Nic Fit when you have no understanding of how the deck works on a philosophical level....of WHY certain cards are in the deck, is a sure-fire recipe for failure.

@Firepaw -- this might be of especial interest to you, since it's your exact list that he's playing.

Edit: Also, I wanna smackabitch regarding SCG's stupid naming conventions. Nic Shift is one of the most retarded sounding names I've ever head. Scapewish is so much more elegant -.-

[XdeckX]

Hmm its a shame that I dont have a premium account for SCG. I would have liked to watch those games eventhough they seem to mess up allot reading the comments.

I've been thinking of trying a Dungrove Elder build with Rancor for a while. For some reason Dungrove Elder apeals to me but being in Deed range could make him a bit awkward. Perhaps dropping a deed and adding more Decays and/or Pulses.

[chapman24]

I've been lurking around for a while and thought I would share the G/B list I have been messing with. I like it because it has a combo finish :tongue: as well as the Fauna Shaman Toolbox that can beat down with Vengevines. I'm not real sure on the sideboard options, I would like to try and get 3 Phyrexian Arenas into it and unsure if the NO plan is any good. I'll take any feedback, thoughts, ideas, or suggestions you might have on the list or changes to it.

Here it is-


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Basking Rootwalla
3 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Bone Shredder
3 Vengevine
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pluse

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize / IoK???

4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain


SB-

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Bigh Game Hunter
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Krosan Grip

[godofallu]

Chapman I know this is the last thing you want to hear but my advice would be that a Fauna Shaman deck, and almost any deck that relies entirely on graveyards, is horrible right now.

Probably about 60% or more decks these days run 2-6 maindeck hate. Like Deathrite shaman and Scavenging Ooze and KOTR into Bog. When you add sideboards in such as surgical extraction (singlehandedly destroys vengevines or the combo) and relic of progenitus you get an even worse outlook.

[Arianrhod]

Random thought for you, Chapman. It would mean losing the Eternal Witnesses, but it would protect you (and screw over half the format in the process). Try adding in 3-4 Ground Seal maindeck. It'll protect you from Surgical, Deathrite, and so on, while cantripping. The only targeted gy interaction that you have that I see, anyway, is the Witnesses and the Reanimates. If you run Exhumes instead of Reanimates, then it's JUST the Witnesses. I dunno, just some food for thought. I considered Seal for Rector briefly, but dismissed it because I have too much gy interaction (Nightmare, Sun Titan, etc).

[TerribleTim68]

I have a couple questions:


Why do you guys only run a single Volrath's Stronghold and a single Phyrexian Tower? Doesn't Wasteland just tear you up? Or are these lands not all that important?

Anyone ever run a High Market? Isn't it another sac outlet? Not that it would be great, but it is there.

Is there a minimum number of basics you think is best? I see a lot of lists with different numbers of Veteran Explorer, some run a full 4, some run 3. Does that change the minimum number of basics?


I ask all this because I'm thinking of throwing something together with what I've got and don't want to go out and spend a ton of money on cards I could live without. Besides, I've got some stuff like Rectors, Vindicates and a Rebirth laying around collecting dust and I want to play 'em again.

Thanks guys.

[Arianrhod]

I have a couple questions:


Why do you guys only run a single Volrath's Stronghold and a single Phyrexian Tower? Doesn't Wasteland just tear you up? Or are these lands not all that important?

Anyone ever run a High Market? Isn't it another sac outlet? Not that it would be great, but it is there.

Is there a minimum number of basics you think is best? I see a lot of lists with different numbers of Veteran Explorer, some run a full 4, some run 3. Does that change the minimum number of basics?


I ask all this because I'm thinking of throwing something together with what I've got and don't want to go out and spend a ton of money on cards I could live without. Besides, I've got some stuff like Rectors, Vindicates and a Rebirth laying around collecting dust and I want to play 'em again.

Thanks guys.

Both Stronghold (for the builds that run it) and the Tower are legendary. Some builds, like my Rector build, run 2 Towers, but never more than that. As for Wasteland -- we run Eternal Witness, if it really matters that much. Also, most people that are in the market for gy recursion opt for Recurring Nightmare as an engine, as opposed to taking up a colorless land slot with a Stronghold.

High Market is plausible, I suppose, but Tower is usually better, because it's another source of mana acceleration. Generally speaking, the 2 mana is much more useful than the 1 point of life. You could run both, but then you're starting to get into too many colorless lands. Nic Fit has to be careful about how many colorless lands it plays, because so much of your mana base is eaten up by basics. If you run too many colorless lands, you end up running the risk of screwing yourself out of a color.

I'm not sure where you're seeing competitive lists that are only running 3 Explorers, but I would not encourage that. We're a stage 3 attrition/control deck, which ramps to its endgame before most decks hit their midgames. To that end, most of the better Nic Fit lists run not only the full 4 Explorers, but usually a 2-of of some backup ramp source as well, in case of problems with the Explorers. These can be Sakura-Tribe Elders, Deathrite Shamans, Wood Elves, and/or Nature's Lore.

As for a basic count, I'd recommend between 6-8. If you want to run ScapeWish, you're looking at a higher count (9-10), but since you said you have Rectors, I'm guessing you aren't worrying about that.

[TerribleTim68]

...Some builds, like my Rector build, run 2 Towers, but never more than that. ...

Do you mind posting that list?

[godofallu]

Do you mind posting that list?

Quick tip. His signature has the best lists for each type. Or at least some of the best lists this entire thread has to offer.

[Oiolosse]

Do you mind posting that list?

His sig

[Arianrhod]

Note that I'll be updating both Rector and ScapeWish lists after this weekend. Both versions will be attending Jupiter Games on Saturday, and I should have some updates to make after that (assuming my changes work as well as I think that they will).

Also, Tim, be warned that Rector isn't a cheap deck to build if you don't have the stuff lying around. It runs both Moat and Nether Void, and unfortunately there isn't really a good replacement for either. If you have to, you can run it Moatless at least while you try to get enough winnings to acquire a Moat, but there's no real substitute for Nether Void at all. If you don't have a Nether Void, you basically don't beat combo.

One of these days I should really try to theorize a budget list to deal with that problem.

One more thing (Uncle OP. bonus points to anyone who gets the reference). I see from your signature that you have a lot of decks. I feel compelled to offer you a warning. Nic Fit as a whole is a very, very challenging archetype. Rector in particular is a beating, even beyond that. You can play it, and have fun with it at any skill level. That isn't an issue. But doing really well with it takes a lot of time and effort. It's a tremendous weapon once you've put that time in, and Rector in particular has basically no bad matchups in the greater metagame currently. But you have to be prepared to make play mistakes, to adopt the wrong line of play, and, perhaps most damningly of all, you have to be willing to go to time every single round while you learn it. Once you know what you're doing, it's actually really easy to win within the round. But time and again I've seen new pilots pick up the deck and quickly drop it again after a month or so, for any of a variety of reasons. If you pick it up and focus on it, you're not going to find a much better deck. But it's not a "grab and go" deck. You will lose, and it will suck at first. Most of the people in this thread will vouch that, I think.

But yeah. My advice would be to proxy it up and get in a few games with it. Assuming you're of at least average skill (which, again, I'm assuming based on your sig), you should be able to make her fire properly at least once over the course of a night of testing. Then that can give you the read on whether you want to go down the rabbit hole or not.

[TerribleTim68]

Cool beans guys, thanks. Yea, I fully understand that it's gonna take some time to grasp, like any good deck. Just looking for something that will have some enjoyment, and be different from the typical deck I run now.

While I do have a lot of decks, that doesn't mean I play them all or jump around a lot. :wink: It helps to throw off the ones on here that I play against at my LGS. :tongue:

[Tao]

I am currently still not playing but I watched a bit again and wanted to share a few things. A Scapeshift version top16ed SCG open. Not sure if you already knew because it was mislabeled. Here is the link: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9696&iddeck=70795

I also wanted to note that I am very sure that Rector versions need to start playing 1 Recycle (or Null Profusion). Once out the card is imbalanced and there is nothing remotely close to it. It might not look like much but it is draws you ~3-6 cards each turn (you also have Flashback Therapy and Top activations to avoid a lock from Hymn or double Stifle).

Here is some not much tested theorycrafting:

- I think GBU is stronger than GBW right now. Abrupt Decay is awesome and Swords to Plowshares isn't good atm. I think Jace is at least on one level with Rector and on top of that you get to play 4 Brainstorm and SB Negates. White has not as much to offer at the moment I think.

- One Thragtusk does not seem enough I think, the card is sick. Immune to yard hate, beastly against both Aggro and Control. I don't think it would be wrong to play three or even four of them. On a related note Recurring Nightmare / Thragtusk is pretty unbeatable.

[soiber2000]

Another scapewish deck that nobody has commented is this one which won a 70 people tournament in Spain: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9615&iddeck=70201


Some interesting things as for example 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Diabolic Intent maindeck, and one big absence, Thragtusk, that is completely opposed to what Tao said.

My first thought is that in the current meta decays and intent are good choices, but Thargtusk and maybe Volrath's stronghold have to be there. What do you think?

[Arianrhod]

Hey Tao, good to see you pop in.

Have you actually tested Recycle/Profusion? I've always kind of wanted to, but been too scared to actually try it.

I think that in the abstract, BUG is stronger than Junk, and both are stronger than most everything else (as color combinations, not as decks). However, I do think that the perpetual confusion of this thread with regards to what the strongest BUG build would look like causes a serious problem for taking advantage of the inherent power of the BUG combination. The various Junk lists (Rector and the more Rock-like versions) are much more tuned and refined, and as a result, I feel that they are still the "correct" choice, as much as anything ever is when talking about purely deck-based theory. Obviously this is excluding Scapewish from the discussion. But if we're just talking BUG vs Junk, I think that Junk has to win the war based solely off of experience and results, whereas BUG operates from the theoretical "this should be better" land.

I agree with you regarding Thragtusk. The problem with running more than the 2x that ScapeWish opts for is room. In any white list, Tusk is competing with Sigarda, and I can't imagine that -not- running a Sigarda is ever correct if you're in white. She doesn't leave behind a 3/3, but she's also impervious to basically everything, and she has evasion. Scapewish doesn't have room for more than 2 copies, just in general. I suspect that the 3-4 Tusk version would go in line with my earlier note about Trostani and Rectoring for Greed as a CA engine. Such a list wouldn't need, or even want to run Sun Titan and Yosei, so jamming more Thragtusks would be perfectly fine.