[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

Another scapewish deck that nobody has commented is this one which won a 70 people tournament in Spain: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9615&iddeck=70201


Some interesting things as for example 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Diabolic Intent maindeck, and one big absence, Thragtusk, that is completely opposed to what Tao said.

My first thought is that in the current meta decays and intent are good choices, but Thargtusk and maybe Volrath's stronghold have to be there. What do you think?

Decay is fine. Intent seems atrocious in Scapewish -- especially since he trimmed down the creature package to fit them in! Also: look at the other decks that top 8'd. That is a BEAUTIFUL field for Scapewish. The only bad matchup is Sneak Attack. Everything else should just fold to it. It's hardly surprising that it took 1st.

Not running Thragtusk in Scapewish is horrid, though. All Scapewish needs is time, and Tusk gives you a literal ton of it. To say nothing of the fact that Tusk and Huntmaster are a solid beatdown plan in and of themselves. Like, you honestly don't even need anything else to beat down with. They do it all, both on defense and offense.

I also dislike his sideboard choices, but /shrug. Slaughter Games isn't getting the credit it deserves in any format right now. People will come around eventually. Or they won't, and we'll just keep trolling people with it. Either way, lol.

Edit for a quick note.

As I go to close the tab that I opened that deck in, I noticed what it was named on Council. Coupled with SCG's atrocious naming conventions, I highly doubt that we're ever going to get into Decks to Beat again, regardless of whether we deserve it or not. I know that I messaged Nihil Credo about that once, a while ago -- the list that took 6th, I think it was, at SCG Minneapolis, was improperly named. As a result, it never showed up on the audit that determines DTB. While that wouldn't have been enough to propel us back into the DTB forum anyway, I figured I would point it out regardless.

Not that it really matters -- I'm proud of the work everyone is doing in here, and I think that we can all safely say that we kick ass, whether or not Council.es agrees. Besides, we beat up on the cool kids -- why would we want to be a part of the cool kids' club ourselves? =D

[AmishLuvah]

Actually, I kind of like Nic Fit being off the radar like this. It makes it easier to sneak some wins in.

[Tao]

Hey Tao, good to see you pop in.

Have you actually tested Recycle/Profusion? I've always kind of wanted to, but been too scared to actually try it.

I think that in the abstract, BUG is stronger than Junk, and both are stronger than most everything else (as color combinations, not as decks). However, I do think that the perpetual confusion of this thread with regards to what the strongest BUG build would look like causes a serious problem for taking advantage of the inherent power of the BUG combination. The various Junk lists (Rector and the more Rock-like versions) are much more tuned and refined, and as a result, I feel that they are still the "correct" choice, as much as anything ever is when talking about purely deck-based theory. Obviously this is excluding Scapewish from the discussion. But if we're just talking BUG vs Junk, I think that Junk has to win the war based solely off of experience and results, whereas BUG operates from the theoretical "this should be better" land.

I agree with you regarding Thragtusk. The problem with running more than the 2x that ScapeWish opts for is room. In any white list, Tusk is competing with Sigarda, and I can't imagine that -not- running a Sigarda is ever correct if you're in white. She doesn't leave behind a 3/3, but she's also impervious to basically everything, and she has evasion. Scapewish doesn't have room for more than 2 copies, just in general. I suspect that the 3-4 Tusk version would go in line with my earlier note about Trostani and Rectoring for Greed as a CA engine. Such a list wouldn't need, or even want to run Sun Titan and Yosei, so jamming more Thragtusks would be perfectly fine.

Yeah, I had tested it for quite a while. It is really good. Every spell you cast and land every land you play has simply "draw a card" added to it. The reduced hand size is no problem because GBw usually plays with few hand cards anyway and the skipped draw step is not very relevant in comparison to how much you do each turn. I have also never been caught in a lock so far. The risk is very small, especially if you know what you do. You have to play a bit careful when up against Hymn/Stifle decks but Top and Therapy Flashback help there. Getting caught with two uncastable spells (2 Abrupt Decay) is also unlikely enough to be neglected. I would unconditionally recommend it.

Btw what are your thoughts on Lingering Souls?

[nottz]

What do you guys recommend if you're playing the rector build and you don't have access to moat? Play Raking Canopy maindeck? I heard that some people were having success with Debtor's Knell in the past. Would that go in for the Moat? I've been playing this deck on Cockatrice for the last month or so and I can tell I'm starting to get better with it. I want to buy one of the decks in paper but I'm not sure which one I should go for. Would it be wise to pick up a few Bayous and Deeds because they're run in almost every list?

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, I had tested it for quite a while. It is really good. Every spell you cast and land every land you play has simply "draw a card" added to it. The reduced hand size is no problem because GBw usually plays with few hand cards anyway and the skipped draw step is not very relevant in comparison to how much you do each turn. I have also never been caught in a lock so far. The risk is very small, especially if you know what you do. You have to play a bit careful when up against Hymn/Stifle decks but Top and Therapy Flashback help there. Getting caught with two uncastable spells (2 Abrupt Decay) is also unlikely enough to be neglected. I would unconditionally recommend it.

Btw what are your thoughts on Lingering Souls?

Huh. I'll try it in place of Arena sometime and see what I think.

Uh. Lingering Souls is pretty good in Junk, because Liliana of the Veil synergy is sooo good. There's probably some token build of Nic Fit somewhere that would like Souls...especially if you like, Rector into the +3/+3 to all dudes GW enchantment, or something. 4/4 Explorers are scary. So are 8/8 Baneslayers. In a traditional Rector build, though, there just isn't room. Like, making maindeck changes to my Rector build is actually painful now, because I'm really happy with every card in the deck, and the way with which they fill the certain roles that I want filled. The only real complaint that I have regarding Souls as a card, aside from space, is that it's an efficient card, not a powerful one. Therefore, it falls under the same category as things like Nimble Mongoose or Goyf. It definitely does has a degree of power, but traditional Nic Fit doesn't have a way to break it. You can't generate advantage with Liliana of the Veil the same way that Junk does. You also can't suit up the tokens with equipment like 'Blade can.

So yeah. I'd slap Souls with a fringe playable within the archetype. I think there are definitely lists that like it, but the more "mainstream" versions will probably steer clear.


What do you guys recommend if you're playing the rector build and you don't have access to moat? Play Raking Canopy maindeck? I heard that some people were having success with Debtor's Knell in the past. Would that go in for the Moat? I've been playing this deck on Cockatrice for the last month or so and I can tell I'm starting to get better with it. I want to buy one of the decks in paper but I'm not sure which one I should go for. Would it be wise to pick up a few Bayous and Deeds because they're run in almost every list?

Uh. If you don't have Moat, Canopy is not the answer, lol. You probably run the 4th Deed, and then switch out Yosei for Armada Wurm. Moat is essentially filling the role of the 4th sweeper in the deck, although it does a lot more than that too.

Debtors' Knell wasn't good. If you want a big bomby enchantment, Tao's Recycle/Profusion tech is probably where you should be looking. When Knell got rolling, it was pretty beast, but it was always hard to get moving, and it quickly turned into a win-more card, unlike Nightmare, which can actively get your ass out of all kinds of situations.

The other option for Moat replacement is Planar Collapse. It isn't GOOD, certainly, but I don't think it's completely horrid for the role you want that slot to play: a secondary Rector-able sweeper. Moat just "sweeps" non-flying creatures every turn. Kind of.

And yeah, if you think you want to end up in Nic Fit somewhere, then Bayous, Verdants, Deeds, Explorers, Therapies, Tops, and Green Suns are all really solid pickups.

[nottz]

Thanks. I'll probably pick some of the staples up while I think about it. Sorry about the Raking Canopy thing, I wasn't really thinking. I thought Moat and Canopy did the same thing because I'm stupid.. haha. I have a friend who has a moat so he may let me borrow it if I get the deck. Thanks for the help.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Would 4 colorless lands be too much in a 3 color list running 9 fetches, 3 duals, and 8 basics? I want to replace Treetop Villages with Mishra's Factory and see how that works out.

Also, as for BUG v Junk in Nic Fit, BUG has a lot of variance so far as already said. However BUG biggest boons over Junk is access to some of the best card draw spells with Brainstorm and Standstill and access to the best alternative win-con in the form of JMS (well, best comparing BUG to Junk: Scapewish wins games out of nowhere of course). I'm actually toying with the possibility of dropping a living wish and Top entirely to make room for 3 Standstill.

[nottz]

I don't think that factories hurt the mana too much. There will be times of course where you are cursing them but the payoff can sometimes be better than the reward. My advice is to try them and see if you like them enough to deal with the variance that they bring.

[Viridia]

I've been wanting to play Rector again and after back reading some stuff and thinking about it i think i'm going to try a list similar to this:

Mainboard (61)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

16 Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer



22 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
1 Null Profusion
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate

1 Planeswalkers
1 Karn Liberated

I've chopped the Deed to a Tutor target, getting in Abrupt Decays.
Also cut the Elspeths and 1 Baneslayer for an extra Rector and some ramp in the form of Deathrite Shaman.
Testing will tell if i want more Deeds back in, but relying more on Deathrite Shaman means you don't always want to Deed the board, aswell as there being less Swarm decks and more Midrange/Tempo decks where Abrupt Decay is all-star :)
Tell me what you think :)

[Qweerios]

Am I the only one that thinks Collective Blessing with Rector and Lingering Souls is legit? SFM and Batterskull become so much more efficient, in fact, anything that sticks 2 bodies or populates for a cheap cost (Blade Splicer?) becomes really appealing.... It makes Diabolic Intent much more reliable as well. I think that if we were looking for a more aggro type of Nic Fit deck (Less Deed-centric), this is it... There is less emphasis on the Explorer interaction as most of the good creatures are not GSZ-able, therefore GSZ becomes substituted by Deathrite Shaman. Bring the StPs back and couple them with Decay. Nic Fit meets Big Rock?

...I think I am having a bad case of uncontrolable Espeth and Flip-Garruk drooling

[Arianrhod]

Took 3rd/4th at Jupiter today with Scapewish. Report to follow probably sometime on Monday, along with updated decklists. My matchups on the day were Esperblade (w), Burn (w), Junk (l), RUG (w), Junk (w), Junk (w), ID, Top 8 TES (w), Top 4 TES (l).

[TerribleTim68]

So, some questions again now that I threw something together out of what I have, GBw of course:


I was trying Sun Titan and Grave Titan as well as Kokusho, The Evening Star and Yosei, The Morning Star. How do you find them at the right time since you can't Green Sun's Zenith into any of those? It seems like we run all these one-of bombs but we can't tutor them up. How do you deal with that?
I only have a single Sensei's Dividing Top so I threw my single Sylvan Library in there since I could Academy Rector into it. Is that okay or am I way off?
The Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold combo with either Yosei or Kokusho is amazing. But how do you tutor them up when you only have the single copies again? What am I missing there?
I have Vindicates. Why does everyone run Maelstrom Pulse? Vindicate seems better since you can target a land in a pinch. Am I missing something there?
Lastly, how important is life gain (other than Kokusho)? Is a Thragtusk or Kitchen Finks kind of a must?


Thanks for the help guys.

[Oiolosse]

So, some questions again now that I threw something together out of what I have, GBw of course:


I was trying Sun Titan and Grave Titan as well as Kokusho, The Evening Star and Yosei, The Morning Star. How do you find them at the right time since you can't Green Sun's Zenith into any of those? It seems like we run all these one-of bombs but we can't tutor them up. How do you deal with that?

Fierce Empath as a one off has served me and others well. Diabolic Intent is great, try it.

I only have a single Sensei's Dividing Top so I threw my single Sylvan Library in there since I could Academy Rector into it. Is that okay or am I way off?

I would acquire several more SDT. I am a fan of Library but not here. You can find ANY enchantment. I personally want Deed, nightmare or a silver bomb. Besides, deeding away Libraries are never fun.

The Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold combo with either Yosei or Kokusho is amazing. But how do you tutor them up when you only have the single copies again? What am I missing there?

Diabolic Intent. Primeval Titan can be considered. I don't run Stronghold. I use 2 Phyrexian towers and Recurring Nightmare.

I have Vindicates. Why does everyone run Maelstrom Pulse? Vindicate seems better since you can target a land in a pinch. Am I missing something there?

Pulse is better against Empty the Warrens. Angel tokens. Lingering souls. Deed takes care of those but redundancy is nice. Esp against EtW, we need all of the combo help we can get. Which lands are you having trouble with?

Lastly, how important is life gain (other than Kokusho)? Is a Thragtusk or Kitchen Finks kind of a must?

Don't run the Finks. Thragtusk has obsoleted damn near every other gain life type creature in legacy. Especially since you recur him in Nic Fit. The Tusk can be GSZ'ed and is easy to cast. I want to bump my list to 2. He's awesome.


Thanks for the help guys.

[cheerios]

Is running Visara, the Dreadful in this deck a bad idea?

[AmishLuvah]

So, some questions again now that I threw something together out of what I have, GBw of course:


I was trying Sun Titan and Grave Titan as well as Kokusho, The Evening Star and Yosei, The Morning Star. How do you find them at the right time since you can't Green Sun's Zenith into any of those? It seems like we run all these one-of bombs but we can't tutor them up. How do you deal with that? Try running Fierce Empath as a singleton. That will tutor up all of your six drops.

I only have a single Sensei's Dividing Top so I threw my single Sylvan Library in there since I could Academy Rector into it. Is that okay or am I way off? Sylvan Library isn't way off but it is anti-synergistic with Pernicious Deed.

The Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold combo with either Yosei or Kokusho is amazing. But how do you tutor them up when you only have the single copies again? What am I missing there? See your first question.

I have Vindicates. Why does everyone run Maelstrom Pulse? Vindicate seems better since you can target a land in a pinch. Am I missing something there? This is more of a flex point. I personally run vindicates over pulses.
Lastly, how important is life gain (other than Kokusho)? Is a Thragtusk or Kitchen Finks kind of a must? I keep a single Thragtusk and a Faith's Fetters in my deck and it feels about right. They really help with those long grindy games against goblins and such.


Thanks for the help guys.

[litenkatt]

@Viridia

You're running both recurring nightmare and moat. I think yosei deserves a slot in there.. the yosei loop is just too good

[Viridia]

I'm not sure if it's needed, it's really good and cool, but i'll have to test :)

[slikwilly]

Played Rector at a GPT this weekend. I will be playing in Denver the hard way: no byes.

R1: BUG: Lost to a Tombstalker I couldn't find an answer to in time.
R2: BUG Control: Baneslayer + Sigarda are HOUSE!
R3: Show & Tell - Hive Mind: Ugh!
R4: Show & Tell - vanilla: Ugh!
R5: Show & Tell - Sneak Attack: Memoricide S&T is sweet.

I never want to see Show & Tell again. Few things are as frustrating as a T2 Emrakul when you drop a Sigarda. It just doesn't matter. You get hit on the first attack, have to chump the second attack and then get pasted on the 3rd.

[Arianrhod]

Slik -- what did your board look like, out of curiosity? Also, man up. I had to play against -5- Emrakul decks in a row one event. Fun experience, isn't it? /sarcasm. The day they ban Show and Tell is the day I weep tears of joy for at least an hour. (Disclaimer: I think that if they were going to ban it, it would have been banned over the summer when Show and Tell was ERRWHERE. Now, not so much).

I'll be working on a massive post this morning, with my tournament report from Jupiter, as well as updated lists for both Rector and ScapeWish. Should be up in a few hours.

Also, if Chris Higashi wanders through (or anyone attached to him), does anyone know what he was playing at the SCG Open yesterday? I checked the pairings in like round 7 looking for a friend of mine, and I caught his name at table 4. Then, round 8 he was at table 20, so he obviously lost in r7. The west-coast legacy opens never put up lists past top 16, so I'm curious if he was still on straight G/B, or if he'd switched it up a little.

Visara is a dreadful idea.

Sorry, I had to.

Everyone's pretty much responded to Tim already, but I'll toss out there that Faith's Fetters can enchant lands. So if an Academy Ruins or Maze of Ith or something is being obnoxious, you have both a Vindicate and a Fetters to shut it down. That doesn't seem like a lot, but when you get a deck with this many shuffles and some Sensei's Tops, you'll be able to find it -- especially since either of those lands are going to be found in decks that are aiming for the long game: which is exactly where we shine. Note, also, that Yosei-locking with Nightmare is an acceptable answer to problem lands.

[Siiig]

Sup guys,

Just wanted to pop in to say hello. I finally decided to move to a good deck (from Berserk Stompy), so most of Kich867's NicFit deck is now my ScapeWish deck =P


To Arianrhod specifically, thanks for all your writing man! It's made learning this super complex deck much easier. Looking forward to your post about Jupiter today.

[slikwilly]

Slik -- what did your board look like, out of curiosity? Also, man up. I had to play against -5- Emrakul decks in a row one event. Fun experience, isn't it? /sarcasm. The day they ban Show and Tell is the day I weep tears of joy for at least an hour. (Disclaimer: I think that if they were going to ban it, it would have been banned over the summer when Show and Tell was ERRWHERE. Now, not so much).

I am with you on the tears of joy. Sometimes you get there when you hit w/ a therapy and they just don't draw into a new S&T in time, but otherwise it just sucks. I hate combo in general (it is just not at all how I want to play the game, and that goes for playing against it too) but S&T really rankles me. It's so CHEAP. High Tide takes some work on their part at least. But S&T? 3 mana? Lets go! And half the people playing it are seemingly giant d-bags. That doesn't help my opinion any.

As for my board, I decided to give your tech a crack. (All credit for NO tech goes to Arianhod.) I drew an NO once w/ an abundance of mana and a Veteran on the board. Ran it out there, got hit w/ a straight up Counterspell. The next turn I Witnessed it back and tried again only to run into FOW.

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nethervoid
2 Extirpate
1 Humility
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Raking Canopy
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Harmonic Sliver

(The last three were concessions to the Miracles and Esper Stoneblade decks we saw present when we walked in the door.)

I guess I should mull more heavily to find Humility in these S&T games. I usually will keep a hand if it either A) has Therapy or B) Memoricide/Cranial + a Veteran or a sac outlet. Probably should throw those back if they don't have both Vet + sac outlet though. Of course, Humilty does nothing against Hive Mind.

I was talking with a friend on the car on the way to/from the event and he had a couple ideas for cards to give a shot to. Not sure I will (especially since I'm unlikely to get much play time between now and the GP) but I'll throw them out there for some thoughts: Steel Hellkite, Spine of Ish Sah, Sundering Titan. (No, he is not a MUD player.) Hellkite seems like it might be okay if you're on Fierce Empath. The Spine I don't like because of the lack of a way to tutor it (Angel of Despair is better since I'm running both Eledamri's Call and Fierce Empath). And Sundering Titan is in conflict w/ Explorer. 8 CMC is also rather huge even for us. The basic notion though, is that we aren't going big enough. My lizard brain likes that notion, but my rational brain thinks it's wrong :)

The weekend wasn't a total wash though. These were actually my first matches against BUG and I have to say it wasn't the Shaman induced nightmare I had feared, so that's good at least.

[Arianrhod]

Okay. Here we go.

First up, the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntsmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Terastadon

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Bonfire Of The Damned
2 Scapeshift

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
2 Infest
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Sowing Salt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Perish
1 Natural Order


Saturday morning we were planning on roll out at 8am, but a Junk-playing member of my car was running behind, so we ended up not getting out of Williamsport until 830. We made our way north, grabbing Steve along the way, and finally reached Jupiter's venue at like 10:45 (the event "started" at 11), after going at least 10 over pretty much the whole way to make up that half hour. My nerves were still slightly aflutter for the first round as a result, but I quickly settled in and got down to business. We picked up some orders, distributed some cards to friends in need, and then the pairings were live.

Round 1: Adam with Esperblade

I note as my opponent sits down that I've never seen him before. Now, in at a venue like Jupiter, where basically the entirety of the ringers in the Northeast regularly show up, things get pretty tight-knit. I personally feel that I'm on good terms with at least half of the room on any given day. For me to -not- recognize someone means that they're either a new player, or they came from very far away. Jupiter held a PTQ on Sunday, and I quickly decided from my opponent's mannerisms that he was a PTQ grinder who decided to come up a day early and play some legacy for the hell of it. He was frenetically precise in his announcement of triggers, and he seemed very uptight and nervous in general. Which, given that I suspect he borrowed his deck from a friend who was watching him basically the entire round, is not surprising...especially in as formidable of a venue as Jupiter.

Anyway, we exchange some pleasantries, gripe about how cold it is in the venue (the heat hadn't really kicked on yet), and do the whole shuffle-each-others-deck-thing. Except that he somehow misses a shuffle, and half of my deck goes sailing onto the floor. I'm not sure whether he got any information out of that or not. I remember I looked down and all of the cards that I saw him pick up were face-down, but it's entirely possible a Bayou or something could have tipped him off. But it was okay, because that gave me the "nervous" tell, so I got some information, too. I proceed to lose the die roll, which would be a recurring theme on the day, and Adam leads with a Flooded Strand which fetches an Underground Sea and Thoughtseizes me. This means that he's either Esperblade, or he's a combo deck trying to mindfuck people. I decide that he's on Esperblade, because that's the kind of deck a PTQ grinder would play. My hand is pretty slow, with some number of lands and large-mana-costed things. He durdles for a turn or two while I casually play lands and ship the turn. Eventually he goes for a Stoneforge, fetching Jitte. On my turn, then, I Burning Wish for Thoughtseize, and make him discard the equipment. I also see a Vindicate and a Snapcaster. He goes on Stoneforge beats, and I drop to 13 before Scapeshifting him for lethal with angry mountains. He doesn't understand how the Scapeshift combo works, so I explain it to him and multiple people sitting next to us confirm it -- in addition to my perfect willingness to call Caffrey over (who was judging the event). He was dumbfounded for the rest of the match that something that powerful is actually legal.

I board in the REBs and nothing else.

G2 starts off fairly similarly. He sends an Explorer farming, and I get off a Therapy seeing another Swords, a Surgical, a Counterspell, and a Force. My flashback off of a 2nd Explorer takes the Force. Then it's just a simple matter of drawing out his counterspell, and then introducing him to the furious mountains once again. Easy game.

Round 2: Jeremy with Burn

I've seen Jeremy before, but I can't remember what he played. I thought it was something red. Sure enough he leads off Mountain into Figure of Destiny, which is one of the more obvious opening starts in the game. I Therapy him naming Chain Lightning, hitting one and seeing Spike, Hellspark, Mountain. He Spikes me and punches with a level 2 Figure, putting me to 13. I think I just play land. He neglects to drop a third land, which means I'm probably dead. The only way Burn beats Scapewish is when they have 1-2 lands and no more. If they draw more lands, they usually die. Anyway, he drops me to 11, then 6, then I cast a Huntmaster to go to 8. I have Thragtusk and a land in hand ready to go, so I'm hoping against hope that he can't do 8 to me in one turn. Unfortunately, he draws Fireblast off the top of his deck to go with the Flame Rift in his hand. Awkward.

No boarding here.

G2 He makes some burn spells. I make a pair of Thragtusks. One of these things is better than the other.

G3 is NUTTY for both of us. He keeps what I think would be a shaky hand against anything that isn't giving him 2 Mountains into play untapped. He does like, Mountain + 3 damage. I can't remember which 3-damage spell it was. Anyway, I go land, Explorer, pass. I -think- he bricks on land? Either way, next turn I drop Turm von Phyrexia, saccing Explorer for two black. I use one of that black to Therapy him, which he then bolts me and Fireblasts me in response. I call something, and brick, seeing Flame Rift, Price of Progress and I think a Spike. I drop a 2nd Explorer, flashback the Therapy. He Pops me for 4, and I take his Spike. This is because I'm on the Scapeshift plan, and I'm actually counting on him to unload that Rift so that I can kill him with mountains. I Burning Wish for Scapeshift, pass the turn, and stare ferociously at my opponent.

He draws, and looks really sad. I feel better, and poke him: "Mountain?" He replies that no, it is actually a burn spell. My heart flutters. He casts his Flame Rift, and tanks. Shaking his head, he determines that there is no way to win, and scoops after showing me the Rift Bolt he drew. I take a long, deep breath. All he had to do here was not cast that Flame Rift and he won. If he just dropped the Rift Bolt, he would have been at 19 life (Explorer beat), and I couldn't have Scapeshifted him with 7 lands in play. Then on his next turn, he Rifts and either he wins (if I was stupid and didn't put him to 1 life), or he draws and we got to game 4. Or, you know, he draws the 2nd Rift Bolt that was underneath he first one and just kills me. I dodged a hell of a bullet here. I don't like it when Burn has multiple 1/2-land hands when I'm playing them. Shit's scary.

R3: Eric with Junk

This guy top eights, but loses to Henry Decker with his baby, Big Red. I also didn't recognize this guy, but he was chatting very amiably with two guys that I do know who were sitting by him, so I assume that he just doesn't get to come often, but does actually know what he's doing.

Game one he makes a fast Liliana, and I can't get out of it for a while. I eventually Wish for and Pulse the bitch, leaving him with just a Tarmogoyf. Unfortunately, my deck draws lands for 3 turns in a row while said Goyf pushes my face in. I am actually furious this game that I decided to take Reanimate out of my sideboard for the Natural Order. Those two things need to be played side-by-side, not in place of one another. His Liliana made me discard Terasty Nasty, while I had Burning Wish and three mana. I could have easily Wished for Reanimate, brought back The Don, blew up Liliana and two of my lands, and proceeded to PunchHimInTheFaceBig. But noooooo....Reanimate's bad now, clearly. I'm a dumbass. That happens again like 3 more times over the course of the day, by the way. :|

I board in the Innocent Blood and the Natural Order, boarding out I think one Bonfire and one Cabal Therapy.

G2, I only remember one thing. I kept a really shaky hand on a mull to 6. It was a hand like I hate to keep and sometimes am forced to: Basic Mountain + Top. I know how important Top is in this matchup, especially since I'm on the play so he can't make me discard it. He's on 7, and looks confidant. I decide that gambling that six is better than gambling a mull to 5, which I think is correct. Anyway, the situation progresses such that I have a strong hand but am crimped for mana. I drop an Explorer, and pass. He frowns, and avoids attacking with his Goyf, makes land, and passes. I draw land for my turn, and play it, which puts me to three lands. Now, I could do the exact thing that I purposefully set up by boarding out the 1x Cabal Therapy. I could Wish for Therapy, Therapy him, then flash it back, strip his hand bare, and get two more lands (and a shuffle for my Top). With my hand, I would have then easily been able to push it to g3.

Instead, I frown, remembering that I boarded in my Innocent Blood, and pass the turn. Call me Charlie Brown, cause I'm a MASTER at punting. He draws a Swords to Plowshares, and pushes my face in with large green and black creatures.

Later on in the day, a friend of mine tells me that he overheard the guy slamming my deck, saying that it was a free win (and some other stuff). Yeah, that's why I made top 4 and you lost in the top 8. Jackass.

Round 4: Paolo Cesare with RUG

I smile as soon as I see the pairing. I have a lot of respect for Paolo, and he's a great guy -- but he's a RUG player. That means I get a free win.

We sit down, chat for a while, and begin our match. I have an Explorer, he has a Goose. Awkward for him. I hit a Therapy, strip his hand, ramp, ramp some more, drop a Thragtusk to scare off his 4/5 Goyf, and then casually Scapeshift for an arbitrary amount of damage while I sit at 27.

I board in the REBs. I don't remember exactly what I boarded out. Probably Nasty Terasty, I think a Green Sun and a Burning Wish. Not 100% on that.

G2, he never touches my life total this game. The only change in my life was +5 from a Tusk. At one point he does have a scary board, but I drop Pernicious Deed. He Forces. I shrug. I drop another Pernicious Deed. At one point he dropped a Delver, to try to fly over my board. I REB it. He shrugs and drops another one. I play Witness, and REB that one too. Such is the RUG matchup. He eventually dies to beatdown. (3-1 on the day now)

Round 5: JC with Junk

I'm sad about this, because it's a teamkill. JC's a good friend of mine from Ithaca. I'm also sad about this, because fuck Liliana. Skank.

Game one goes for a good long while. He has a fast Liliana, which I eventually kill with Huntmaster. Multiple Deeds, multiple Wishes for stuff, multiple Bobs, Goyfs, Knights on his end, tons of removal....it's a slugfest. The last life total I have written down is me at 1 with him at 5. Doesn't get much closer than that, though he does pull it out.

Same plan as above: I board in Blood and Order.

In game two, I have the fast Pulse for the Liliana, so it doesn't do much damage. He spams +2 life on Deathrite Shaman to try to stay out of Valakut range. After multiple Hunts and Tusks, I'm sitting at 33 life. He's at 24. I draw Scapeshift. The mountains are FURIOUS, and I nuke him for at least 36 damage.

G3 needs to be on a new sheet of paper, because the first two took that long. He Extirpates my Cabal Therapies, Burning Wishes, and Pernicious Deeds, although thankfully I got to use two of my three Deeds first. However, he pays the price of hurting my deck -- because Extirpate isn't a business card by itself. Top helps me find successive Green Sun's, which in turn finds successive Huntmasters and Thragtusks. He dies to beatdown.

Round 6: Ryan with Junk

Hey look, this guy is in my car. And I helped him build his deck for the day.

Technically we would have drawn this match, but he scooped me in because a draw there meant both of us were likely out.

I win game 1 fairly quickly through unknown means. Ryan's version wasn't running Liliana of the Veil, but it was running Green Sun. As a result, I was more comfortable, but at the same time Ryan's deck was also putting out threats a lot more reliably than the other two lists had been doing.

Same boarding plan is the same.

G2 Ryan drops a turn 3 Hero of Bladehold (Junk mirror tech that I'd suggested). I Natural Order the Don, and blow up three of my lands. My thought process was that Hero of Bladehold needs to die. I know he has a Swords in hand, so the Don is going away. Unfortunately, he has 2 Abrupt Decays, too. I eventually die. If I'd had one more land, I would have been able to kill him. I conclude upon talking with him between games that blowing up 2 lands would have been correct. That way I could still have double-blocked, but I'd have a little bit more resources to work with, because I did get a little mana screwed after triple stone raining myself. 2 would have been okay. 3 was not.

G3 is a derpfest. I have him pretty close to dead, and he casts Armageddon because he wants to say that he cast it once on the day. Okay, sure. I have a Witness and a Wood Elves in play going beatdown. He's at like 4. He draws his card for the turn: Deathrite Shaman.

So yeah. This drags on for -actual- ever. I recover eventually, and he's flying by the seat of his pants using Deathrite to gain life every upkeep so his Bob doesn't kill him. I think that if we had played it the rest of the way out, I would have been okay, but we didn't have the time for it.

So, after he scoops me, I'm at 5-1, with one round left. ID time!

Round 7: ID with Ning

Top 8: Ning with TES

We actually have to play now. Storm is not something that I look forward to playing, but I can beat it.

Game one I keep a fairly strong hand. Ning leads with a land into a Duress. He takes my Cabal Therapy so that I can't get double value out of it (I have the Explorer to go with), and then plays an LED from his hand, presuming that I would name it with Therapy. I drop the Explorer and flashback the Therapy. My choice is between Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish. I decide on the Tutor, since he has to work harder for a Burning Wish kill, whereas Tutor can just go into Ad Naus and kill me. I hit 2 Tutors, and leave him with a Burning Wish (lol), a Gemstone Mine, and a Chrome Mox. He plays draw-go for a few turns while I play mountains, getting up to 4 in play. I Burning Wish for Slaughter Games and remove his Burning Wishes from the game. Then I drop Primeval Titan, and proceed to quickly kill him from there before he can recover.

I board in the REBs and 2 of the Slaughter Games. I know the Don came out. Not sure beyond that.

Ning mulls to 5 before getting an acceptable hand. He goes ballsy and Wishes for Time Spiral early in the game, but can't get up to the point where he can, or wants to, Spiral. It's okay, though, because I don't hit a Therapy for a while. An Explorer, Wood Elves, and Huntmaster eventually beat him to a bloody death.

Top 4: Bryant Cook with TES

Because I really wanted to play against this deck again.

I mull my 7 in game one looking for a Therapy, which I don't find. My 6 has a Zenith, a couple lands, and a Pernicious Deed. I know that Bryant usually goes for the Empty plan game one, so I keep it. I go land-pass, he makes 14 Goblins on turn 1. Shocking. Unfortunately, there was also a Duress in there, so my Deed poofed. I Zenithed out Explorer and passed. He puts me to 7, I get two lands, and he doesn't cut me to a Deed, Burning Wish, or Bonfire. 8 chances to win the game....just didn't happen.

Game two I put up slightly more of a fight. I kept another Therapy-less hand, but it was one of those hands where it goes stone nuts if I hit one. It also had double Red Blast. Anyway, he Duresses one, then Therapies the other, so that didn't matter. I'm going beatdown with two Explorers, meanwhile, and his City of Brass is helping with that. I can't find any hate to save my life, nor like a Huntmaster or Thragtusk to make his life more miserable. I do have a Deed in play, though. He eventually finds what he needs, going to 7 in the process. I make a slight misplay here, but Bryant and I agree afterward that it wouldn't have mattered. he had double LED, and he'd played one out the turn previous in case I therapied him. He led with something inconsequential, into Dark Ritual, with two cards in hand. Now, I actually thought that he had 3 cards in hand, so that was my mistake. But, regardless, I should have Deeded for zero THERE, rather than trying to hold it for his 2nd LED. I thought that he had LED, [uncastable card], [tutor], when he only had LED, [tutor]. He goes into an Iggy loop and I die from there. But yeah. Even if I had Deeded at the correct time, he still had the mana to win -- he just would've had to work slightly harder for it. Maybe if I saw something resembling business sooner. But, oh well. I still walked out with a set of Trops, which means that I get to be lazy and leave my Trops that are in my vintage deck alone now whenever I want to use Trops in legacy.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now, my thoughts on the list.

First of all, Reanimate needs to be there. That was a huge oversight in Liliana-of-the-Veil.format.

Infest was decidedly meh. I also didn't play against Elves, Goblins, or DnT, which it was meant for. I think that cutting 1 Infest for Reanimate is perfectly reasonable.

The Natural Order plan was entertaining, but mediocre. I didn't get to Wish for it all day, and while The Don is as potent as ever at solving problems, he didn't solve the problems that I needed solving. He also LOVED to get drawn, which is just my shit luck and shouldn't be held against him. But seriously, that thing was in so many opening hands =(

Bonfires have actually been being fairly poor for me lately. The meta has moved from largely copious small creatures to fewer, larger creatures. Additionally, Jace is proving to be less of an issue as time moves on because of Slaughter Games, and Scapewish has REB anyway to help out. Now, there are a few ways I could take this.

I'm going to take out The Don, because the NO package sucked. I'm also going to take out the Bonfires. That means I have 3 spots to work with.

The number of things that those three spots could be is astonishing. They could be more ramp. They could be Pulses or Decays. They could be more dudes. They could be something that we haven't seen yet (Gatecrash is coming soon, and it's bringing the Red/Green guild with it).

At this point, I'm probably going to try something like +2 Olivia Voldaren, +1 Wood Elves. I've wanted to get a pair of Olivias in the deck forever now. They'll improve the deck's Show and Tell matchup a good bit, I'd imagine, and stealing Junk's Goyfs and Knights is perfectly acceptable. She also dodges Abrupt Decay. I've missed having the 3rd Wood Elves, although the Tribe-Elder has been quite good as well. so I'm going to put that up as my suggested starting point, and test from there. I'm also going to alter the wishboard a bit. That update will go live to the list in my sig sometime this afternoon.

As for Rector...well....I'll keep you waiting a bit =) I'll put up another post this afternoon with my thoughts on Rector at the moment, as well as the updated lists. For now, I need a break.

[Siiig]

At this point, I'm probably going to try something like +2 Olivia Voldaren, +1 Wood Elves. I've wanted to get a pair of Olivias in the deck forever now. They'll improve the deck's Show and Tell matchup a good bit, I'd imagine, and stealing Junk's Goyfs and Knights is perfectly acceptable. She also dodges Abrupt Decay. I've missed having the 3rd Wood Elves, although the Tribe-Elder has been quite good as well. so I'm going to put that up as my suggested starting point, and test from there. I'm also going to alter the wishboard a bit. That update will go live to the list in my sig sometime this afternoon.


In the list I've been messing with I ran woodelves up to 3 over Elder (mainly because I just don't have one). Do you think the added mana ramp is worth having? Just looking at the list it seems like it would help smooth out some 2/3 mana stuck situations.

I really like the looks of Olivia, I'm just curious how that would help us for SnT? Love the high slaughtergames count. I'll have to pick up a few more to replace inquisition.

[TheArchitect]

Congrats on the success at jupter!

Ive been finding bonfire really lackluster lately as well. Ive been playing with -1 HM and -1Wood elves for a while in place of 2 Aburpt decays, so I might just try using those spots to add the HM and elves back in. I have been liking the decays alot though and wouldnt take them out.

Reanimate is awesome against all the lily decks, you just have to have other creatures out, or a decay to deal with lily when you reanimate or they will just -2 your reanimated target.

[TerribleTim68]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll see about getting a Thragtusk and swapping Kokusho out for him. I had overlooked the Green Sun's Zenith into Fierce Empath into what ever fatty we want route, that clears up what I was missing there. As for the singleton lands, I'm still digging for them too often, especially the Phyrexian Tower. The Volrath's Stronghold is nice, but that Tower is way more important it seems. I also find myself overlooking the Recurring Nightmare plan which is cheaper to get a better Yosei loop going than using the Tower/Stronghold method. Again, thanks for the comments there too.

I think my biggest problem is that Thragtusk costs roughly $25 and the Tops cost roughly $16. To me, $75 is a lot of money all at once, so I have to figure out how to spread it out over time. If you could only buy a sinlge card, what one would you go after first? Should I work on getting the set of Tops (I only have 1) or go after the Tusk first? A Moat is out of the question for now, so not doing that.

I'll try to post my decklist later and you guys can give me some pointers, keeping in mind I'm working with what I own and my budget is an issue. :wink:

I play Legacy because I owned cards from way back when, so if you see expensive cards in my decks, it's because I already had them from the days of pulling FoWs and such from packs. :cool: I stopped playing all together in Invasion block and just recently came back to Legacy only since I had cards to do that. So things like Jace, Goyf, Moat, Candelabras, etc are just out of reach for me these days. I was shocked when I came back to the game at some of these prices. And my current situation is such that $25+ cards are a stretch. Especially when you need 4 of them. :frown:

[Ayotte]

I think my biggest problem is that Thragtusk costs roughly $25 and the Tops cost roughly $16. To me, $75 is a lot of money all at once, so I have to figure out how to spread it out over time. If you could only buy a sinlge card, what one would you go after first? Should I work on getting the set of Tops (I only have 1) or go after the Tusk first? A Moat is out of the question for now, so not doing that.

Well, the deck needs tops to function, IMO, and while Thragtusk is one of the best dudes to get with a GSZ, there are other dudes that you can get.

[Siiig]

Well, the deck needs tops to function, IMO, and while Thragtusk is one of the best dudes to get with a GSZ, there are other dudes that you can get.

For the same shot of money he could also finish his top set (just about) which would give you full function on that front.

[Arianrhod]

Congrats on the success at jupter!

Ive been finding bonfire really lackluster lately as well. Ive been playing with -1 HM and -1Wood elves for a while in place of 2 Aburpt decays, so I might just try using those spots to add the HM and elves back in. I have been liking the decays alot though and wouldnt take them out.

Reanimate is awesome against all the lily decks, you just have to have other creatures out, or a decay to deal with lily when you reanimate or they will just -2 your reanimated target.

Thanks! I missed seeing you there (and at Mythic, too). Christmas break, I'm guessing?

I'm really depressed about the Bonfire situation, actually. Bonfire was soooooooo amazing just a few months ago, and now it's just trash. I'm definitely hanging on to my copies, for future meta shifts may well necessitate them once again. But for now, I may as well have two Emrakuls in my deck for all the good they're doing me -- although Emrakul might actually be better =/

Decay is something I've certainly considered. They're the "boring" answer. I always like to experiment with random things on the chance that they work better than the baseline. Throughout my experimentation, if none of my attempts work, I'll probably fall back on a pair of Decays. But I'd like to try some stuff first (see later in this post).


Thanks for the comments guys. I'll see about getting a Thragtusk and swapping Kokusho out for him. I had overlooked the Green Sun's Zenith into Fierce Empath into what ever fatty we want route, that clears up what I was missing there. As for the singleton lands, I'm still digging for them too often, especially the Phyrexian Tower. The Volrath's Stronghold is nice, but that Tower is way more important it seems. I also find myself overlooking the Recurring Nightmare plan which is cheaper to get a better Yosei loop going than using the Tower/Stronghold method. Again, thanks for the comments there too.

I think my biggest problem is that Thragtusk costs roughly $25 and the Tops cost roughly $16. To me, $75 is a lot of money all at once, so I have to figure out how to spread it out over time. If you could only buy a sinlge card, what one would you go after first? Should I work on getting the set of Tops (I only have 1) or go after the Tusk first? A Moat is out of the question for now, so not doing that.

I'll try to post my decklist later and you guys can give me some pointers, keeping in mind I'm working with what I own and my budget is an issue. :wink:

I play Legacy because I owned cards from way back when, so if you see expensive cards in my decks, it's because I already had them from the days of pulling FoWs and such from packs. :cool: I stopped playing all together in Invasion block and just recently came back to Legacy only since I had cards to do that. So things like Jace, Goyf, Moat, Candelabras, etc are just out of reach for me these days. I was shocked when I came back to the game at some of these prices. And my current situation is such that $25+ cards are a stretch. Especially when you need 4 of them. :frown:

I can certainly understand that. A question: what do you have that's old that you could sell? If you're just an acquirer of cards, then that's fine too -- but a lot of times, if you played back during that era, you very well might be sitting on a stockpile that you don't even know about, which you could then transmute into some of the newer staples like Tops.

To answer your question: I would definitely get the Thragtusk. Top is really important too, obviously, but there are two dynamics at work here:

-Thragtusk is a Zenith target. This means that, on a per card basis, you're going to see that Thragtusk more often than you're going to see Tops. Each is capable of winning games on their own, but I think that I would err on the side of the tutor target. Tusk is also the single best thing we can do against a lot of the decks in the format, like Miracles, where another option like Finks wouldn't work. There are a few passable substitutes for Top. None of them are -amazing-, but they'll do while you work on getting Tops.

-Top is a legacy staple, and has been for a very long time. If you're at a legacy event, you'll be around other legacy players. There is a decent chance that one or more of them may have Tops available for you to borrow. Legacy players will almost certainly not have Thragtusks for borrow.

----------------------------

Okay, here's the updated list for Scapewish:

Note, the list up above, which I copied from Jupiter, is incorrect. There was only 1 Tower, and 2 Valakuts, not 2 Towers.


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntsmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm/Infest
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Tsunami/Sowing Salt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Damnation/Perish


The left-hand options in the wishboard are those which I will personally be using a larger percentage of the time, but the right hand options are viable as well.

A few notes.

Upon consideration, I have decided that I want a second Tribe-Elder over a third Wood Elves. Elder being a 2-drop is the deciding factor. I want an 8th ramp source, and I think that a 2-drop one is better for the way the deck is currently set up than a 3-drop one. Against the fast decks, the 2-drop increases your odds of being able to Wish+Pyroclasm on turn 3, for example. In some matchups, that one turn difference decides the match.

4 Tops. Scapewish cares about Top a lot more than the other versions of Nic Fit, especially in an era of BUG and Junk, where he who has the Top quicker wins the game. This is subject to change in the future, pending testing. But for now, at least from a theoretical standpoint, I want Top more often than I don't want an extra Top.

Volrath's Stronghold. I've gone back and forth and back and forth on this card. When I've run it in Scapewish in the past, I always found myself aggravated because I couldn't make good use of it. I've determined, however, that the meta is ripe for this card to shine once more. This seems strange because of the amount of graveyard hate that is present within the format. However, a lot of that is either RIP (which we don't especially care about), or Deathrite Shaman (which we just kill). In the attrition mirror, having a Stronghold is a good thing, especially when we can access it easily off of Primeval Titan and form the Two Towers engine with it. Rector, obviously, still doesn't care, because Recurring Nightmare is better than Stronghold will ever be. Time may prove me wrong here.

Pyroclasm over Infest, because Virtue's Ruin. If you don't have Ruin, you want Infest. You NEED to have a reliable answer to Gaddock Teeg, especially since Junk is running like three copies of the Kithkin Asshole in their sideboard. Your Green Suns are better than theirs, and your Scapeshifts are almost always lethal. You don't want Teeg around. Junk doesn't have Mother to protect him, of course, but Maverick still does, and Mom-protected Revokers out of Death and taxes can be annoying, too. But yeah. There's the decision tree for that choice. You want -either- an Infest or a Pyroclasm, depending on your Virtue's Ruin ownership status.

Tsunami over Sowing Salt. An exception to this is if you're playing in the extreme Northeast, like in the Connecticut region, for example. From what I've heard, there are multiple 12-post decks up there, as opposed to just Jeremiah and his friend Scott who make the trek down to Jupiter sometimes. If you have 12-post, you need Sowing Salt to deal with them. Sowing Salt has some other corner-case applications, but generally speaking Tsunami is almost always going to be better. It's still the shit.

Damnation/Perish depends largely on whether you want a backup to Virtue's Ruin or whether you want to have a guaranteed sweep that hits every creature deck in the format and asks questions later, but is slower to do so. You can make really good arguments for either right now. I had the Perish in my board at Jupiter, and was sad it wasn't a Damnation one or two times -- but then there were times where it being 3 mana was also a lifesaver. I THINK that the flexibility of Damnation edges out the power of Perish, but it's close. Season to taste.

If 4 Tops pisses me off, and/or Stronghold proves itself less useful than I'm hoping, Olivia is the next thing on my list to try (x2). She's more than capable of taking over a board state entirely by herself, she has evasion, and she interacts favorably with decks that have more mana available than they really ever should. Top and Stronghold still get the first nod, though, on the "to be tested" list.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for Rector.

As most people in here are aware, Academy Rectum has a secret weakness that a lot of legacy players aren't aware of. In the past I've tried to keep this hush-hush so that any errant readers of this thread wouldn't use that knowledge against us. Two things have changed with regards to my policy therein: Rector OmniTell got more coverage than it really deserved (which showed people on the SCG stream how to beat Rector as a card), and Deathrite Shaman is a 4-of in two of the best/most prevalent decks in the format.

Rector's weakness: if you exile her in response to her trigger, the trigger will fizzle and you won't get the enchantment. There are a number of mind tricks you can do to get around that, to varying levels of scummy behavior, but the bottom line is, if you run into someone who is competent in legacy and who knows that trick, you need to have ways to deal with it. Ooze wasn't enough to force my hand. Shaman, unfortunately, is.

The response from Nic Fit is to adopt a Natural Order package in the sideboard. I had Steve test this out at Jupiter, and Slik was using the NO tech at the same time for his GPT, since he'd PM'd me asking for advice against Shaman. Preliminary results from Steve, at least, were positive. The Deathrite decks he played against had no idea what to do about Progenitus, who summarily dispatched them. Unfortunately, Steve got shitty matchups otherwise, and tilted a fair bit too, so he finished outside of the top 16 (and thus, the money). However, the tech did work for what it was supposed to do.

To wit, the updated Rector list:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena//Recycle/Null Profusion
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Diabolic Intent

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Memoricide
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant//Natural Order
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant//Phyrexian Arena (if not main)
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus


And, again, the explanations of changes:

The only maindeck change is a concession to Tao, who says that Null Profusion/Recycle is the stone nuts. I haven't had a chance to test either yet, personally, nor have I come up with a compelling reason for one option over the other, other than that Profusion can be foiled and Recycle can't. But Recycle's art.....HRNNNGH.

I believe that Recycle/Profusion would go in the Arena slot, although having one of those effects out with an active Arena would stop you from getting hardlocked. If you opt for Recycle/Profusion, I believe that the Arena then goes into the sideboard, to be moved in at the expense of the Recycle/Profusion slot vs the discard decks. I'm not sure. Testing needs to happen on that before I make a final decision one way or the other.

Now, for the board.

The 3 Natural Orders + 1 Progenitus, for the BUG/Junk matchup, aka Deathrite.dec. The only outs these decks have to Prog is Liliana of the Veil, which is not run as a 4-of (when it is run at all). If you want, you can try to run the full 4 Natural Orders, but I -think- that 3 should be sufficient since the decks we want it vs are slower, grindier decks. A few tricks. Game one, ALWAYS ALWAYS try to run Rector into a Deathrite Shaman, if the situation presents itself and you can afford to do so. Don't chicken out. More players will not know the trick than players that do, and you can use all kinds of little tricks to sneak it through, such as explaining Rector's trigger for any curious opponents as "when this dies, I can exile it and search for an enchantment." There's nothing wrong about that statement. It's actually pretty close to the oracle text. But, it gets it into the opponent's head that this is not a trigger that they can respond to. Subtle wording means a lot for Rector. I always answer all questions directed my way truthfully, by the by. If someone then asks me if they can respond to the trigger by exiling her, then I explain everything and and 100% candid. But I'm not going to volunteer information, and neither should you. Just don't ever lie about it. It's not worth crossing any lines for.

To refocus: it's usually a good idea to fish for knowledge game one. If they don't respond to Rector, it's probably best not to board in the NO package, although I'm not 100% on that since it's so new and untested overall. However, vs Junk at the very least, Moat is a HUGE asset vs them. If they don't know about Rector, I suspect it wiser vs Junk at the least to leave Rector+Moat in. BUG has a fair number of flyers anyway, and Jace TMS, so Moat is a liability there anyway. As a result, you probably just board in NO and be done with it. Again, testing is needed.

Don't forget that you can Therapy yourself. If Progenitus gets stuck in your hand, Therapy yourself to discard him, then shuffle your deck.

Against blue decks, it's entirely possible to hard-cast him. You just need two Carpets, and they have to have at least 2 Islands, in order to make the Red and Blue mana. Likewise, don't forget than you can Green Sun him. This is made easier by Carpets as well, obviously, but is possible without Carpet.

The 0-2 Elspeth slots are primarily for Miracles, but also are solid against BUG/Junk.

2 Leyline of Sanctity is additional insurance against the Liliana of the Veil decks, while being useful vs Storm-based combo, and vs Burn, which I expect to see a resurgence to prey on BUG.

Note: this configuration does leave you somewhat vulnerable against U/W RIP Miracles. The lack of Golgari Charms, Krosan Grips, Qasali Pridemage, Harmonic Sliver, Abrupt Decay, and so forth may prove to be a problem if the RIP Miracles variant grows stronger. If it does, then the Leyline spots are probably the weakest overall, and those two slots likely become Abrupt Decays, which are useful both vs Miracles and vs Liliana decks. Sliver isn't at the top of his game right now, nor is Qasali. Grip is always fine, but OmniTell isn't a presence lately....just Sneak. If Omni pops up again, then Grip is probably the best way to go. If you are more worried about tribal, then look at Golgari Charm as a flexible option.

-------------------------

Okay. I'm going to update the links in my signature to these two lists. While the full range of changes present within are largely untested and there is some variance to be found, I do endorse both of these lists as what I would play, were there another Jupiter this weekend. I'm going to have a bit of a legacy drought here for a few weeks, so hopefully some of you can get some testing in for me with these changes and we'll see if they work. My next major legacy event will be SCG Columbus, and I hope to see some of you there, at least.

I'm as accessible as always -- if anyone needs advice on anything, by all means post here or shoot me a PM, and I'll do what I can.

[Cire_dk]

Thanks a lot Arianrhod for your report and explanations.

Personally I have had very good experiences running Bonfire. It has won me at least one (possibly 2) game my last tournament. With all those Lilli's about I would like to fit in abrupt decay MB.
I am very much surprised you included Volrath again although you used to advise against it not so long ago.
Is the extra ramp really neccessary for this deck? I might prefer a decay to an extra sakura.

SB: 3 elemental blast: I exchanged one with a pyroblast to annoy people who try to extirpate my REB :smile:

I will be testing your alternatives and might be able to give a more informed opinion in a while.

[Arianrhod]

Thanks a lot Arianrhod for your report and explanations.

Personally I have had very good experiences running Bonfire. It has won me at least one (possibly 2) game my last tournament. With all those Lilli's about I would like to fit in abrupt decay MB.
I am very much surprised you included Volrath again although you used to advise against it not so long ago.
Is the extra ramp really neccessary for this deck? I might prefer a decay to an extra sakura.

SB: 3 elemental blast: I exchanged one with a pyroblast to annoy people who try to extirpate my REB :smile:

I will be testing your alternatives and might be able to give a more informed opinion in a while.

I thought about doing that, but I haven't had anyone Surgical/Pate my REBs yet, so /shrug.

Volrath is very much on probation right now. I'm cautiously thinking that this meta is the right meta for it to be good, but if I try it even once and it sucks, it's back on the bench until I feel like giving it another chance.

Like I said before, switching out Bonfires for Decay is perfectly reasonable. I want the extra Sakura-Tribe just to have an extra earlier mana source. It isn't so much that I want more ramp, as that I want more lands without raising my land count. Usually turn 2 without Explorer shenanigans is pretty boring for this deck, so I think that adding another "mana source" in the form of a 2nd tribe elder is a good idea. It makes more 2-land hands keepable, for example.

[TerribleTim68]

. . .I can certainly understand that. A question: what do you have that's old that you could sell? If you're just an acquirer of cards, then that's fine too -- but a lot of times, if you played back during that era, you very well might be sitting on a stockpile that you don't even know about, which you could then transmute into some of the newer staples like Tops. . . .
Thanks for the reply there. Actually, I've already off'ed about everything that I was willing to let go of to get some newer stuff for a couple other decks. So I'm out of trade stock. :frown:


. . .To answer your question: I would definitely get the Thragtusk. Top is really important too, obviously, but there are two dynamics at work here:

-Thragtusk is a Zenith target. This means that, on a per card basis, you're going to see that Thragtusk more often than you're going to see Tops. Each is capable of winning games on their own, but I think that I would err on the side of the tutor target. Tusk is also the single best thing we can do against a lot of the decks in the format, like Miracles, where another option like Finks wouldn't work. There are a few passable substitutes for Top. None of them are -amazing-, but they'll do while you work on getting Tops.

-Top is a legacy staple, and has been for a very long time. If you're at a legacy event, you'll be around other legacy players. There is a decent chance that one or more of them may have Tops available for you to borrow. Legacy players will almost certainly not have Thragtusks for borrow. . .
Thanks for input there. How highly do you value Sigarda, Host of Herons and Baneslayer Angel as cards I should focus on before Tops?

Here is that list I said I'd post:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate (I have these, but no Maelstrom Pulses or Abrupt Decays. Neither seem totally out of reach)

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recerring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library (trying to make up for missing tops)

1 Sensei's Divining Top (I only have the 1)
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, The Morning Star
1 Kokusho, The Evening Star
1 Fierce Empath

1 Scrubland
4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
8 Fetchlands That Get B, G or W

Again, this was made up with what I own. See previous post regarding my budget situation. I have 3 Natural Order and 4 Progenitus, so the NO sideboard plan could be done too.

[Oiolosse]

4 proggys? Trade 2 for 2 tops i say.

[TerribleTim68]

4 proggys? Trade 2 for 2 tops i say.
Yea, but I use 'em in Sneak-Show. They're anti-Karakas! :wink:

[Tao]

I would go for 1 Thragtusk first, then as many Tops as you need. Thrag is an important GSZ target so getting the first one multiplies. Thragtusk will also stay expensive for quite a while because it will be one of the defining T2 cards until it rotates out so waiting won't make it better.

[slikwilly]

Thragtusk is better than Finks, but for the $ you could go Finks + Sigarda (and have a little left over). Sigarda is a rock star in my estimation.

[TerribleTim68]

Okay, had a bit of overtime on the check this week and picked up a Thragtusk for $20 along with a $10 Baneslayer Angel. :cool:

Gonna work on Tops and a Sigarda next.

[Oiolosse]

Nice, and considering you have Sneak and Show built (im assuming by your remark) you can always use prizes from winnings to slowly gather the cards you need for Nic Fit.

[vilnico]

... And I said I'm fine with that.

Our deck is one that thrives in the late game. We even use two-sided ramp to get the late game going faster. If you're telling me that if I have a Rector on board you're going to stop making me lose 2 life each turn, thus allowing this deck to develop further, I am completely fine with it. Give me more turns to naturally draw that Deed, or an Abrupt Decay or Swords or whatever it takes. The longer the game goes, the more favored I am; and if you're holding back on your DRS because of my Rector, so be it.

The point about DRS being worse because of his prevalence is well taken. I just don't have the fear you all seem to have.

Hey Yoric,

I understand you are fine with DRS stalling waiting for a Rector to be activated. I believe we all know here Nic Fit is a late gamer nuts.
The problem is that, me being your opponent and knowing what Rector does, i.e. bringing the late game you are thriving for before it should happen, I really cannot afford that. It is basically buying time hoping finding a way to handle the late game, rather than having nothing for a too-early late game.
I really do not believe activating a DRS for +2 life or -2 life on you, is worth in exchange of the Rector. And I believe that you would be actually quite happy if Rector could be activated under DRS, as much as I would.


@Arianrhod: Nice Top4 on Jupiter.
I saw your updated BGw Rector build, and was quite surprised to see neither StP nor Decay. Is this meta-dependent to you ?
Also, nice to see you back already :D, as well as Tao

[Arianrhod]

Hey Yoric,

I understand you are fine with DRS stalling waiting for a Rector to be activated. I believe we all know here Nic Fit is a late gamer nuts.
The problem is that, me being your opponent and knowing what Rector does, i.e. bringing the late game you are thriving for before it should happen, I really cannot afford that. It is basically buying time hoping finding a way to handle the late game, rather than having nothing for a too-early late game.
I really do not believe activating a DRS for +2 life or -2 life on you, is worth in exchange of the Rector. And I believe that you would be actually quite happy if Rector could be activated under DRS, as much as I would.


@Arianrhod: Nice Top4 on Jupiter.
I saw your updated BGw Rector build, and was quite surprised to see neither StP nor Decay. Is this meta-dependent to you ?
Also, nice to see you back already :D, as well as Tao

Thanks =D

Not as much as you'd think. The most traditional removal that I've ever had maindeck in Rector was 1x StP, many, many moons ago. The deck runs Vindicate, Pulse, and Fetters for spot removal, and then the 3 Deeds and a Moat for sweepers. Also, Rector thrives on gunking up the board. It doesn't necessarily need to remove your Tarmogoyf, if you can't swing into me because I have a Rector sitting there being scary.

That's actually arguably the single scariest thing about Deathrite. It's not that it limits our graveyard options (though it does), or that it's a way to generate reach when we have a Moat established (although it does). It's that he removes the terror that our opponents should feel when they're staring at a Rector. Suddenly, they're not afraid to attack into it at all. -That-'s a problem.

But yeah. The maindeck has more than enough spot removal and sweepers to be okay, even though they are non-traditional in nature (StP/Decay).

As for the sideboard, I did have a 2x Abrupt Decay there for a while. However, they got dropped to make room for the NO package. If you'd like, you can slot in a pair of Abrupt Decays where the 2x Leyline of Sanctitys are, but I think that I like Leyline better because it's a bit more flexible, and it provides another layer of lock against combo. While they try to find an answer to the Leyline, it gives you more time to establish Nether Void for the win. Abrupt Decay does nothing against combo. Obviously it has its own strengths as well, but I'm inclined to say that Rector, at least, is okay without it.

Note: if you're looking at a GBW deck that does -not- run Rector, then you definitely want StP and Decay somewhere. I'm not an expert of the "rock" sub-archetype, though, so I can't say how many of what there. But it basically comes down to space. Rector runs the Rector package and attending enchantments, Rock runs spot removal in those slots instead. Just a matter of what you want to do.

@Tim -- Sigarda should be your next acquisition IMO. Sigarda and Thragtusk will win you a disturbing amount of games. Like, Sun Titan and Yosei are the big bombs and the horrifying hitters.....but they're usually what gets answered. They demand that the opponent has the answer, the opponent uses the answer, then you start dropping the 2nd-string in Baneslayer, Sigarda, and Tusk -- and they're usually out of answers at that point. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have Mirri's Guile laying around somewhere, if you didn't already get rid of them. Guile is a good substitute for Top while you're waiting to get them. Obviously Top is dramatically better, but IMO Guile is the best of the "other" candidates, probably followed by Sylvan.

Also, you'll notice an immediate difference in the deck once you get the 5-drops. 5 is a "magic number" for Nic Fit, because if you lead land->Explorer, pass, Phy Tower, sac, you have 5 mana on turn 2.

Likewise, you should try to get at least one of the Sakura-Tribe Elders soon, because 3 is another magic number. Land->Therapy, pass, Land->Explorer, flashback, gives you 3 mana available on t2, which you can use to Zenith out Sakura-Tribe (among other various and diverse lines). IMO you want to flesh out the GSZ options, get the bombs and the win conditions set up so that you have the power, then start adding in the stuff that makes it more consistent.

[Osmin]

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?

[TheArchitect]

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?

I was wondering the same thing, and why you put the therapy in the SB? Ive always considered having one SB cause of burning wish, but I am wondering when it is a good idea to move it to the SB?


I havent been to mythic or jupiter lately cause ive just been too busy. I hope to make it to january's though.

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?


I was wondering the same thing, and why you put the therapy in the SB? Ive always considered having one SB cause of burning wish, but I am wondering when it is a good idea to move it to the SB?


I havent been to mythic or jupiter lately cause ive just been too busy. I hope to make it to january's though.

I gauged this based on how the pattern of the Junk matchup seemed to be going. The Junk player would drop some shit, I'd kill it, he'd drop some more shit, I'd kill it, he'd kill my shit, and then he'd drop a solitary remaining threat. I figured that this would give me time to find the Blood maindeck, since I'd likely have a Top chugging away. Also, keep in mind that, thanks to Bob, we often have information about what's in our opponent's hand. This makes having a Therapy in the board a very attractive option. I would also not board in the Blood without boarding out a Therapy -- you always want to have a 1cmc way to sacrifice a Veteran Explorer as a Wish target.

The ideal situation here was the opportunity that I missed vs the first Junk player (the one I lost to). If I'd remembered to Wish for the Therapy, I could have made him discard his hand (I know both of the cards in it), ramping out of my mana screw in the process, and blowing up his board. Then I would have been able to stabilize easily, and take that game.

Burning Wish in general is weird in the Junk matchup. You don't want to Wish for something that you can't use the same turn, because your Wish target will just get discarded. At the same time, you don't really want to hold on to Wishes, because then they'll get discarded and, worst-case scenario, Extirpated.

The best way to think about Burning Wish in general is that you want variable cards in specific roles. In general, the slots are:

[Catch-all Answer]
[Catch-all Sweeper]
[Fast/Small Sweeper]
[1-cmc Explorer removal]
[3rd Scapeshift]
[Land destruction]
[Teeg Removal]

Those 7 are fixed slots. What card occupies those slots is variable. So for example, the 1-cmc Explorer Removal slot can be the default Innocent Blood, or you can put the Blood maindeck and board out a Therapy to occupy that slot. I feel that in the Junk matchup, having a Therapy accessible via Wish is more useful than having the Blood accessible via Wish. Blood's better maindeck, and smart Junk players (like JC) will Extirpate Cabal Therapy ASAP. Therapy is actually one of those secret little chinks in our armor, so to speak. If you can get rid of the Therapies, that hurts Nic Fit like hell. I mean, it's obviously recoverable, and I'm torn as to whether it's wise to board in Surgical/Pate vs non-Rector Nic Fit in general, from the opposition point of view. Like in g3 vs JC, sure, he Extirpated three of my core cards (Therapy, Wish, Deed), but those Extirpates could have been business spells instead -- more threats or removal. It sucked, and it hurt, but then he didn't have the resources left to deal with my beatdown plan. But yeah. Protecting a Therapy is probably a good idea in the matchup. I also like to board out a Therapy against the various flavors of Stoneblade, for the same general reason -- they like to Surgical/Extirpate Therapy, -and- you want a Therapy accessible via Wish because Stoneforge gives you information, and that way you have a Therapy available on-demand in the midgame, where you'll have likely used any earlier copies to hit Jace, Force, Brainstorm, Clique, etc.

That all make sense?

[TerribleTim68]

. . .@Tim -- Sigarda should be your next acquisition IMO. Sigarda and Thragtusk will win you a disturbing amount of games. Like, Sun Titan and Yosei are the big bombs and the horrifying hitters.....but they're usually what gets answered. They demand that the opponent has the answer, the opponent uses the answer, then you start dropping the 2nd-string in Baneslayer, Sigarda, and Tusk -- and they're usually out of answers at that point. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have Mirri's Guile laying around somewhere, if you didn't already get rid of them. Guile is a good substitute for Top while you're waiting to get them. Obviously Top is dramatically better, but IMO Guile is the best of the "other" candidates, probably followed by Sylvan.

Also, you'll notice an immediate difference in the deck once you get the 5-drops. 5 is a "magic number" for Nic Fit, because if you lead land->Explorer, pass, Phy Tower, sac, you have 5 mana on turn 2.

Likewise, you should try to get at least one of the Sakura-Tribe Elders soon, because 3 is another magic number. Land->Therapy, pass, Land->Explorer, flashback, gives you 3 mana available on t2, which you can use to Zenith out Sakura-Tribe (among other various and diverse lines). IMO you want to flesh out the GSZ options, get the bombs and the win conditions set up so that you have the power, then start adding in the stuff that makes it more consistent.

Ok, thanks for the input there. I'm pretty sure I saw some Guiles in my box of cards so I'll have to dig through there again. I also have the Tribe-Elders already from when I managed to aquire a collection from a friend so I'll dig them out too. Guess I need to take a closer look at your list, looks like this might be a big rebuild of mine.

Again, thanks for the input. Seems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others. :cool:

[vilnico]

Seems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others. :cool:

/trolololl on
Haven't read other threads, but NicFit is funnier than it is stronger in people's mind.
Hence all friendly people play and talk about Nic Fit, the others go play pro/competitive/DTB/tiers 1(whatever it means).decks :p
/trolololl off

@Arianrhod: Thx for your feedback, and also I like a lot the Cabal sideout tech, that is really a nice feature with B.Wishes.

[Arianrhod]

/trolololl on
Haven't read other threads, but NicFit is funnier than it is stronger in people's mind.
Hence all friendly people play and talk about Nic Fit, the others go play pro/competitive/DTB/tiers 1(whatever it means).decks :p
/trolololl off

@Arianrhod: Thx for your feedback, and also I like a lot the Cabal sideout tech, that is really a nice feature with B.Wishes.

Meh. And then we beat up on the pro/competitive/DTB/tier 1 decks. The only thing that stops Nic Fit from being competitive at a high level of play is the skill of those who pilot it. I've said that for a long ass time now (while I've been topping events left and right). Too many people pick it up because they think it looks fun, or because they have standard cards and they want to break into legacy. Then they start playing it, and they lose with it. Hard. I've said that all along, too. If you're not prepared to lose with this deck for a few months while you learn its ins and outs, don't bother. But yeah. People pick it up, and they suck with it. That puts the idea into other peoples' heads that the deck is bad, and then that "bad deck is bad" notion sticks with them, so the deck as a whole gets looked down upon, when it's really not the deck's fault at all.

Hell, if you watched those videos from SCG the other day, Brad Nelson picked up the deck, had NO IDEA what the cards did (thought Veteran put lands into play tapped, for fucks' sake), and STILL beat Todd Anderson on BUG Control something like 4-2.

I know we recently lost Megadeus to Stoneblade, and Claymore to Rock, which is a shame. But yeah. I do my best to answer any and all questions that are posed to me in this thread, in the hopes that people other than myself and Qweerios can start actually doing well with the deck and making it respected. I've had a lot of people tell me, to my face, that I'm the only Nic Fit that they've encountered that they respect. And I think that a lot of that comes from the fact that I've been both playing the deck for a year and a half now, and that I've been steeped in the theory of the deck (and, indeed, of the format) for the whole time, since I've been one of the driving forces in the thread. Nic Fit is, in my opinion, a very theoretically-grounded deck. It plays so many weird cards and adopts so many odd lines of play that it can't be anything but. It's not like Stoneblade where your decision tree is literally "Do I have Stoneforge? If yes, I win. If no, I lose. If yes and they kill it, I lose. If yes and I protect, I win." You have to understand the WHY of the obscure, strange card choices. If you don't, you'll never be able to make a proper sideboard, you won't know how to sideboard what and when, and you won't know what lines of play to adopt when.

The other issue with Nic Fit IMO is that it's a Therapy deck at its core. Therapy is one of the single hardest cards to play in the format, and I think that it's actually used most fully in Nic Fit, although Hollywood would probably smack me for saying that. Something like Dredge (including Manaless), generally only uses Therapy as anti-hate option. They think, okay, what hate does this guy have, or, okay, how does my opponent win the game right now, before I kill him? And then they base their line off of that. In Nic Fit, we're actively using Therapy to shape the entire flow of the game, because our game LASTS more than 3 turns (ideally). Dredge cares about the "now." We care about both the "now" AND the "then." Skillful Therapy is critical to Nic Fit, and being able to play Therapy, by its very nature, is something that takes a lot of time, practice, and groundwork in the history of and trends happening within the metagame as a whole. Most people don't have the time, energy, drive, or intellect to master Therapy the way as is needed to play Nic Fit effectively.

Furthermore, again (as with all of this, this is purely my opinion), the smarter you are, the friendlier you tend to be when dealing with equals. I will be the absolute first to admit that I can be a haughty, self-righteous, arrogant prick. I have an ego the size of Alaska, and I'm not afraid to demonstrate that in public, which can occasionally be problematic (to say nothing of embarrassing). But, due to the nature of Nic Fit, I think that this thread attracts people like me. We are, in many ways, the elite of the format. And elite are nothing if not courteous to their own. For example, I will bend over backwards to help those who I perceive as my equals, and those who I can see are trying their hardest. I think that has a LOT to do with the friendly atmosphere in this thread, honestly.

We're the best. We know it. We just have to make the rest of the world understand it, and that's not something that any one of us is going to do alone =)

[vilnico]

sup bro ! :D

i was just trolling there, but indeed I believe Nic Fit is fairly competitive vs the "DTB", except combo. But you can't have a deck having good MU vs everyone else.
It rapes RUG and Aggro more generally, it is good vs Esperblade, it can be good vs control with PW.
I mean it is fairly polyvalent.

But sure it takes some skill to push it forward Tops4/8

Let's keep working on that :D

[slikwilly]

Qweerios commented the other day about a Collective Blessing/Tokens build. It's something that occurred to me after I cracked a Blessing at my prerelease and promptly forgot about, but I've now put together a rough draft. The basic idea is to power out a giant trampler. Humility goes great w/ Blessing and Treetop Village. (Yay layers! For those who don't know: 7B sets creatures to 1/1s w/ Humility then 7C gives them +3/+3 from Collective Blessing. In the case of Village, you'll go w/ timestamp order, so you'll have yourself a couple 3/3 tramplers even w/ Humility on the board.) There's probably a few questionable choices here (Enlightened Tutor especially) but it looks fun.


3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Humility
2 Collective Blessing

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Armada Wurm
1 Primeval Titan

2 Sensei's Divining Top

[Zombie]

O___O

That list is sexy. The only thing I'll say is that it (and every deck everywhere ever for that matter) needs more Garruk Relentless. Absurd card is absurd.

[Claymore]

I still check in :P. My biggest gripe was that the deck could be extremely inconsistent, as it nearly requires an early Explorer, and if you don't get one off soon enough then you're left playing a high CC deck with minimal acceleration. Getting a hand along the lines of 2-3 lands, Pulse, Sigarda, Rector, Witness felt pretty common so I had to mull fairly aggressively to find the narrow band of hands that were keepable. It also seemed difficult to shove hate into the deck due to the size and required balance of the synergy engine and kill packages so it seemed limited in how to fight against the bad matchups...namely combo. You also had to rely very heavily on Deed in most matches since you give up larger single target removal packages in place of sweepers like Deed and Pulse, so not finding a Deed with your mana already established was frequently death - which, along with inconsistency of opening hands, ended another tournament.

The inconsistency also got piled on with the high late-game complexity of the deck when you're facing long tournaments and grinding matches. The game that finally make me switch was top 4 game 3 against Bant, facing down Elspeth at 7 loyalty, Jace brainstorming like mad, a bunch of tokens, a large Knight and I think Hierarchs against my very small board. I top decked a Rector and had a sac outlet to lead into many lines of play to extend the game, but ended up choosing wrongly due to fatigue and died a few turns later.

Then you have Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace...could get nasty.

I've actually thought about brewing up something using Grisly Salvage, which would almost certainly get you a Cabal Therapy in the yard and find either Rector or Explorer since you have the top 13 cards of the deck to look at now (considering it played turn 2) along with DRS as an additional accelerant...but I also just wanted a break from Nic Fit after the 10 months or so of playing it to get an alternative deck :P.

I'd love to build Scapefit though, it seems incredibly solid.

[Arianrhod]

Fair enough, I suppose. I will note that I actually keep a lot of hands without Explorer, and they work out okay. There's a lot of factors involved, of course.

Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers, SCG actually has 3 in stock currently. 1 is NM, 2 are SP. Here's the link: http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Veteran+Explorer&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty[1]=1&auto=Y

Kind of annoyed that they have 3 now after it took me over a year to complete my set, but meh. Good for you guys, I guess.

[Qweerios]

It's nice to see the people in this thread becoming active again (thanks to Arianrhod). Here's a little bit more to keep us going:

Concerning Recycle / Null Profusion, I don't think you need to combine it with Arena at any point in any matchup where you want this type of interaction. In case this didn't register yet, Top alone turns Recycle into a beast as it now grants two cards instead of 1, and that at any time you wish to use it or cast it. On top of that (unintended pun), it is well out of Deed range and doesn't cost any life. Nic Fit is also accustomed to having a 2-cards hand by the time it can land 6drops. It's synergy with top goes beyond the double cantrip as well, you can also respond to the "play a card" trigger of a fetchland by cracking said fetch in the advent that your top3 is not what you want, then filter your top 3 cards with the fetched land in response to your draw trigger. I think Recycle is a great find and will quickly become a staple in the Rector versions (it will in mine).

As for where Nic Fit stands in the format, I think it is where it belongs. If it were a DtB, it wouldn't be for long because it is easy to play against once you know how. Minor changes in deck construction (1-2 more basics, couple PWs here and there) and Nic Fit has a really hard time fighting fair decks, especialy those sporting counterspells because they get the last word in a control mirror. Being cold to combo and unfair decks in G1 and highly reliant on a combination of non-explosive plays from your opponent and a smooth draw from yourself is a chance we only take because we have no other choices. As I have stated before, Nic Fit is a metagame deck. It rose during the Maverick/RUG/Stoneblade era and fell during the SnT/Griselbrand era. A good Nic Fit deck is essentialy fool-proof against aggro decks, has the upper hand on control, and relies 99.9% on its sideboard for unfair matchups. It will not be a DtB before it has adequate maindeck-able tools to deal with the broken factor of the Legacy format.

A fair concession that I will make to Nic Fit is that it teaches you to be a great player. I have never been so aware of my opponent's hand, board, draws, potential plays, and my own deck before and that's, in great part, due to what Cabal Therapy requires of it's user to be effective in any deck. Akin to Death and Taxes, there is a lot of additional knowledge about the game that has to be acquired to be able to play Nic Fit successfully. I have won my last 2 tournaments (Local and GPT) with a homebrew version of Esperblade with Deathrite Shaman, and despite being my first few times on a blade deck, I made little to no missplays during my matches. I believe that my last year as a Nic Fitter has a lot to do with my lines of play as a control player because playing a Legacy game with a Nic Fit deck is like going to war with more bullets than anybody else, but having to find your gun first.

I hope Gatecrash brings some good Simic or Gruul cards and GSZ targets for Nic Fit to breakdown. Hopefully they are better than Armada Wurm.

@Arianrhod,

I know we disagree on a lot of things regarding Nic Fit but I think that 3rd Plains is really off in your Rector list. 8 Basics in a 3colored list is a lot for 6 fetches and that 3rd Plains isn't required for any card in your deck. I understand the jump from 1-2 basics of a single kind in the absence of double costed cards for consistency's sake, but that 3rd Plains would be much better off as a 4th Verdant. Additionaly, white mana in general isn't even necessary for any early plays with your list. Smart fetching will open up more early options and feed your Tops better than risking the double Plains or Plains + Forest + Therapy opener.

@Slikwilly,

Nice find! The Humility synergy with Collective Blessing and manlands is worth delving into but not what I originaly thought of as a deck. The concept of Collective Blessing in Nic Fit, I think, is to allow undercosted and effective cards to pack a Nic Fit punch. Cards like SFM, Lingering Souls, and Deathrite Shaman, which are all strong cards in their own right can now become lethal. The fact that they have inherent synergy with Nic Fit staples like Cabal Therapy, Rector, and even Diabolic Intent is what makes it a viable deck strategy. The trade-off comes with Pernicious Deed where it becomes less of a freebie. The newly discovered Recycle is also great with cards like Lingering Souls and SFM. There is also Chord of Calling as a potential replacement for GSZ but I think that's a bit far-fetched.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod,

I know we disagree on a lot of things regarding Nic Fit but I think that 3rd Plains is really off in your Rector list. 8 Basics in a 3colored list is a lot for 6 fetches and that 3rd Plains isn't required for any card in your deck. I understand the jump from 1-2 basics of a single kind in the absence of double costed cards for consistency's sake, but that 3rd Plains would be much better off as a 4th Verdant. Additionaly, white mana in general isn't even necessary for any early plays with your list. Smart fetching will open up more early options and feed your Tops better than risking the double Plains or Plains + Forest + Therapy opener.


I'm short on time at the moment so I'm just going to respond to this quickly.

I'm actually inclined to agree with you on this. The 3rd plains was always for the double-white cards, so that if I draw a Plains in my opener or first few draws, I could still Explorer for Plains+Plains to cast one of my WW costs. However, with Elspeth moving to the sideboard (and frankly being questionable even there), that lowers my WW cost cards to the Moat, the pair of Baneslayers, the Sigarda, and the Sun Titan. That's still a large number, but Moat will likely be Rector'd, Sigarda will probably be Green Sun'd, and the other three cards aren't typically dropped early anyway.

Now, here's a question for. If I take out the 3rd plains, do you think that the 7th fetch is what the deck would want, or perhaps Karakas should be added? That obviously does nothing to alleviate the occasional white-heavy hands, but, especially with Diabolic Intent, it does improve the odds of dealing with various problems. A maindeck way, at that. I'm not sure. It's something to think about, at the very least.

----------

Also, because Qweerios just kicked this over into a new page, I'm going to restate that SCG has Korean Explorers if anyone is looking. Info is on the last post of the previous page. Those things are hard enough that I don't want my note about that getting lost and not seen -- I'd much rather they found their way into Nic Fitter hands =)

Edit: Also, can anyone think of any particular reason to run Null Profusion over Recycle or vise versa? I can't come up with anything. Perish won't hit it, there isn't anything like REB or Karma that is commonly played, I don't think. I might just be derping. Am I missing something? Barring outside interference, I'd say Recycle should get the nod since GG is easier than BB.

[Viridia]

Fair enough, I suppose. I will note that I actually keep a lot of hands without Explorer, and they work out okay. There's a lot of factors involved, of course.

Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers, SCG actually has 3 in stock currently. 1 is NM, 2 are SP. Here's the link: http://sales.starcitygames.com/search.php?substring=Veteran+Explorer&t_all=All&start_date=2010-01-29&end_date=2012-04-22&order_1=finish&limit=25&action=Show%2BDecks&card_qty[1]=1&auto=Y

Kind of annoyed that they have 3 now after it took me over a year to complete my set, but meh. Good for you guys, I guess.

Oh man, i havemy Explorers awesomely altered, but now i'm thinking about picking those up :P

[Arianrhod]

Oh man, i havemy Explorers awesomely altered, but now i'm thinking about picking those up :P

I'm actually really sad to hear that now. You'll understand when you get your package, lol.

[Viridia]

I'm actually really sad to hear that now. You'll understand when you get your package, lol.

I better wait with picking up stuff 'till i get that then ;)

Also seriously thinking about picking up some Japanese Foil Rectors for 110 each.

Edit: Ah man, CFB had 5 of them on Ebay, all gone now >.>

[Arianrhod]

I better wait with picking up stuff 'till i get that then ;)

Also seriously thinking about picking up some Japanese Foil Rectors for 110 each.

Edit: Ah man, CFB had 5 of them on Ebay, all gone now >.>

Yeah, they've been vanishing left and right. Steve's got his three -- I've been working on other stuff for other decks, though =(

I think Deeds are my highest priority right now. With BUG and Junk both blowing up, Deed is bound to go up. I also need to try to get my Witnesses before GP Charlotte so I can get them signed by Terese Nielson =3 (Thank god I already have the Gurus for it, lol).

[Viridia]

Nielson will be in Charlotte? O.o I might consider flying over , was thinking about doing that some time anyway :D
Been stuck on FNM Etwits myself, but i did manage to trade into a Jap Foil Deed last week :D

[slikwilly]

Nice find! The Humility synergy with Collective Blessing and manlands is worth delving into but not what I originaly thought of as a deck. The concept of Collective Blessing in Nic Fit, I think, is to allow undercosted and effective cards to pack a Nic Fit punch. Cards like SFM, Lingering Souls, and Deathrite Shaman, which are all strong cards in their own right can now become lethal. The fact that they have inherent synergy with Nic Fit staples like Cabal Therapy, Rector, and even Diabolic Intent is what makes it a viable deck strategy. The trade-off comes with Pernicious Deed where it becomes less of a freebie. The newly discovered Recycle is also great with cards like Lingering Souls and SFM. There is also Chord of Calling as a potential replacement for GSZ but I think that's a bit far-fetched.

Yeah, that was a rough draft. I have a slightly revised list w/ an extra Top and Recycle in it. Recycle + Flashback is pretty awesome... Fitting everything into the deck that I want is always challenging. Some days I think decks need to be 70 cards and 3-of max just so I can play everything I want :)

I went looking for sac outlets over lunch to see if there was anything worthwhile w/o requiring a swamp. Anyone ever thought about Altar of Bone? The other one that caught my eye was Jinxed Idol. I don't think you can replace Therapy since a legacy deck w/o disruption better be way faster than we are but it never hurts to see what's available. I'm hoping Orzhov gives us some sweet new toys...

[vilnico]

Hey guys, it's Terese NielsEn, not like a Brad Nelson name ^^...

Just for curiosity, how much were the KOR Veteran ?
I got my 3 Japanese for a dollar each (directly in a Shop in Tokyo ^^), and it hurts my eyes to see it 11$ on SCG.
Not gonna get my fourth so soon I guess... :(

[Qweerios]

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

[Zombie]

Writing this to say a word of thanks.
I'm not much of a Legacy player primarily for wallet reasons, though also because I hadn't found an interesting deck. Storm is good, just a smidge off. I love critter toolboxes and Forests and can't help it. I thought I found something worthwhile in Survival. We all know what happened to that.

With that, it's been interesting to see the evolution of Nic Fit. Why? I play German Highlander, what does that have to... wait, doesn't that look familiar (http://deck.tk/7DkZ2Rpi)? Been fun trying to pilfer ideas from Nic Fit builds because they often fit 1-1 (for example Arianrhod's Fetters inclusion - it's perfect for killing Walkers and pesky Sphinxes of the Steel Wind that were previously next to unanswerable). Found Collective Blessing myself some time ago, had to give it up because the single slot just isn't enough for overall board presence purposes, but seeing it come to fruition here due to slik's great find is awesome.

Some things from the singleton land that might be worth considering:
A lower mana curve, aggressive Rector list. In practice this just requires some small dudes that stick - I have manadorks and Carrion Feeder. Rector dies, Eldrazi Conscription, well, that was a short game. Using Rector as the combo card still allows for all the sick grindy things and general toolboxy cards like Arena and Fetters.

Garruk Relentless. Play him. He's insane. You have multiple Phyrexian Towers, Explorer-Therapy, multiple Garruks. That is, you can go for a fast Garruk very often. Also, in a Collective Blessing/Rector style list? As Hanni's avatar aptly states, "prepare your anus".

[Arianrhod]

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

That's basically why, lol. They're stupid rare. It's just a pimp thing. Like, when people were opening Korean Weatherlight, they weren't looking for Veteran Explorers. So a lot of them probably ended up stranded on shelves or just thrown out. As a result, they're really, really hard to find.

[vilnico]

What is so special about Korean Explorers? I can't find a picture anywhere...

man, they're not special, they are KOREAN
that's all there is to it ^^...

[Demonic_Attorney]

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

[TerribleTim68]

. . .Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers. . .

Lol! Oddly enough, I have 1 Japanese Explorer from Weatherlight that I've had forever. Kinda glad I held onto it, but some times I hate that it's Japanese because I can't read it and it never fails that when an opponent says "what does that do?" that's when my brain goes dead and I get to sit there going "Um, um, um". :confused:

[Kich867]

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

There's always been some discussion about that, but this thread for any and all variants of Nic Fit builds.

[TheArchitect]

I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

Most of us kinda bounce around between a few variants of the deck (BUG, GBW, punishing fire, scapeshift, 4 color, etc). While I cant speak for all of us, I like having it all one thread even though they are probably as different as some of the other decks that get different threads.


I tried brewing up a list to make use of collect blessing when it spoiled, but couldnt make anything I liked. I do think it might have some merit though and will give it another shot at some point. Elspeth, and garruk relentless should definitely be in that list somewhere. They are strong by themselves, the nuts with humility out, and even better with collective blessing. Maybe even Elspeth 2.0? but idk


I had a thought a while ago when it comes to additional sac outlets: Tabernacle. Has anyone tired this? the fact that it uses a land drop without making mana is bad but maybe its worth it for a sac outlet and a way to slow aggro decks in a big way.

[conboy31]

Now, here's a question for. If I take out the 3rd plains, do you think that the 7th fetch is what the deck would want, or perhaps Karakas should be added? That obviously does nothing to alleviate the occasional white-heavy hands, but, especially with Diabolic Intent, it does improve the odds of dealing with various problems. A maindeck way, at that. I'm not sure. It's something to think about, at the very least.


Before I moved to rural ND and temporarily gave up magic I went with the 2 plains/1 Karakas split that you eluded to. I had a MD Sigarda and Thrun along with a SB Teeg to get utility myself as well as being able to legend rule the opponents (we have more virtual Karakas w/witness) and mise vs. Emrakul, etc.

[Oiolosse]

I agree with Qweerios on Recycle. I used to play that in Combo Elves and thought it was solid.

That being said, since I am still farting around with it I have been trying some of the blue powerhouse enchantments. Future Sight is just so good with Top. Decree of Silence has been pretty awesome as well. The mana cost is is hefty but Rectoring it into play has been nice. Has anybody else experimented with this?

[fireiced]

A fair concession that I will make to Nic Fit is that it teaches you to be a great player. I have never been so aware of my opponent's hand, board, draws, potential plays, and my own deck before and that's, in great part, due to what Cabal Therapy requires of it's user to be effective in any deck. Akin to Death and Taxes, there is a lot of additional knowledge about the game that has to be acquired to be able to play Nic Fit successfully. I have won my last 2 tournaments (Local and GPT) with a homebrew version of Esperblade with Deathrite Shaman, and despite being my first few times on a blade deck, I made little to no missplays during my matches. I believe that my last year as a Nic Fitter has a lot to do with my lines of play as a control player because playing a Legacy game with a Nic Fit deck is like going to war with more bullets than anybody else, but having to find your gun first.





I would want to agree with Qweerios on this! (: Thanks to the experience in playing therapy in nic fit, I always jam 2 copies of it into any deck with B and creatures



@Arianrhod
Secondly, I want to thank this dude for guiding me along with nic fit! I am still playing scapewish to great results still but people have learnt to play around me and thus I am forced to play tighter.

Edit: Because I spelled thank as tank >_>

[Arianrhod]

I agree with Qweerios on Recycle. I used to play that in Combo Elves and thought it was solid.

That being said, since I am still farting around with it I have been trying some of the blue powerhouse enchantments. Future Sight is just so good with Top. Decree of Silence has been pretty awesome as well. The mana cost is is hefty but Rectoring it into play has been nice. Has anybody else experimented with this?

Viridia has, though he's been going all the way down the rabbit hole and running Omniscience. My issue with the powerhouse blue enchantments has always been that they're uncastable. I do think that there's something there somewhere -- quite possibly in a future attempt at a Chromatic Lantern version, but I, personally, always get hung up on the fear drawing blue enchantments (oftentimes with UUU costs) in a deck without island. Some people have run Scroll Rack as a 1-of as a way to put the offending Rector target back in the deck, so I mean, it's not like you're the first to try it...it has achieved a level of success. Just not my personal cup of tea.


Before I moved to rural ND and temporarily gave up magic I went with the 2 plains/1 Karakas split that you eluded to. I had a MD Sigarda and Thrun along with a SB Teeg to get utility myself as well as being able to legend rule the opponents (we have more virtual Karakas w/witness) and mise vs. Emrakul, etc.

I was wondering what happened to you. That makes sense, I guess, lol.

Protecting Sigarda from Supreme Verdict seems good, as does mising vs Emrakul or blowing up opponents' Karakas -- because sometimes Yosei does need to go beatdown. I dunno. The issue is that it doesn't actually make my mana base better -- in fact, it makes it worse, because at least I can Explorer/Tribe-Elder the Plains out.


I have noticed that all the "nicfit" decks that have been winning and/ or placing in the top 8 of any fifty (50+) plus player Legacy events recently have all been sporting "scapefit" builds of this deck.

I note that this forum is for GBW; however, given the recent success of a seventy (70) player first place finish and a fifty-two (52) player second place finish and another top 8 in another larage scale Legacy event it seems as though scapefit is more consistent at posting better results than the more traditional nicfit version right now.

Should there now be a new form exclusively for scapefit builds or is this the appropriate forum to post and discuss same?

This has been suggested a few times throughout the thread, but every time so far (obviously), we've rejected the idea. Our primary response as a sub-community has been to put our specific versions played in our signatures, so that we can keep track of which version we're talking about at any given time. Aside from Architect's point that a lot of us rotate through different versions personally, there's also the issue that most versions "speak" to one another, if you will. Tech that is good for one version is usually good for another, even though the lists may look completely different. We're all still "the same, enough."

As for Scapewish (which I shall attempt to continue to call it until the day I give up on the game), all I can say there is that it's an inspired design, and it still periodically offends me, because Rector is still my favorite version to play. I've spent a lot of time turning over just what exactly makes Scapewish so damn good in my head, and about all I can come up with is the synergy of the land-based combo kill. Like, Burning Wish is sweet and all, but it really doesn't have much to do with the success of the archetype. It's good because it gives you flexibility in addition to providing you with 6 available Scapeshifts, but it isn't "the reason." I think that, if anything, "the reason" would be that Scapeshift turns Veteran Explorers (and our backup ramp engines) into combo pieces. We get closer to comboing off and just killing someone with every land we play, which is what our deck wants to be doing ANYWAY on its way to casting Primeval Titan, Huntmasters, Thragtusks, whatever.

I'm curious to test Recycle, because between that and the NO package in the sideboard, Rector might finally be able to catch up to Scapewish. Both are pseudo combo engines in and of themselves, and Recycle in particular adds a Scapeshift-like quality to the deck, where every land we play gets us closer to going progressively more apeshit. Deathrite decks are completely kold to NO, and the more popularity they enjoy, the more powerful that package is going to get. So, we'll see what happens.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm actually liking Tabernacle, not so much as a sac outlet, but as a way to strengthen our already strong aggro matchup and as an additional answer to EtA/EtW/BfB token win-cons. Plus, it could enable a Standstill variant of Nic Fit.

Let's see . . . something like this could work, right?

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish (I love my Wishboard)
2 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

Also also: Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek in the side?

[Siiig]

Got to play my scapewish version in a small tournament last night (8 players, all on real decks).

List mods off of Arianrhod's sig...

No Elders
+1 Wood Elves (2)
+1 Scavanging Ooze / -1 Huntmaster (I don't have a third huntmaster, but like the ooze for GY hate...lot of dredge in my meta)
-1 Top
+2 Olivia Voldaren
(no stomping grounds, no stronghold, more basics, generally "not as good" manabase).

Most notable change to my SB: 1x Seeds of Innocence

Played up against Goblins, BUG Control, and Stoneblade

Goblins: This deck isn't to bad for us I don't think. He kept slow vial hands basically ever game. G1 was basically just sweep after sweep into a shift for the win (yay for fetch lands). G2 I kept a terrible hand (the more you know!), something to the effect of 4 lands, 2 tops, no business. This game would have been the same as G1 had I mulled, as he actually stayed on another slow vial hand. G3 he goes to 5, sweeps and thragtusks into a shift.

Rich on BUG Control: Rich is a friend of mine, and an extremely good pilot. I was in luck here, because it was his first time playing this BUG list (he's usually on esperblade). G1 goes pretty quick with a shift for lethal after some back and forth and control.

G2 drug on into a JTM followed by a top deck Lilly. Had it not been for the Lilly I MAY have been able to come back from this from the tusk on the board.

G3 Saw a top for him and no top for me. It was pretty brutal all things told, but I don't remember any specifics.

Oro on Stoneblade: I got a slight advantage because this guy doesn't usually play legacy, although he was on a very competent stoneblade list. G1 ends pretty quick with a shift for lethal. He was (apparently) holding FOW and just didn't counter it.

G2 drruuuggg on in top deck mode. For the first time of the night I landed Olivia, and she offed a vet for me to cast scapeshift for lethal (jace got pitched to FoW this time). Supreme verdict made her go buhbye, I landed hunt master at some point and he did his flip dance turn after turn. At some point he got down Batterskull which I had fun blocking with huntmaster tokens, then Jitte came behind it and made mr. wolf die. I was spinning my top again and again until finally I saw something useful--burning wish. Ripped wish, grabbed my board (intending to scapeshift) and realized I had already wished for it! Next best thing... Seeds of Innocence!! Wish/Cast seeds (by now everyone there was watching it) and I got a resounding "Oooooo" from my random singleton. Wipes Jitte/Batterskull, and I was able to go beat down from there. Ended the game at like 24

--End Report

I had originally thrown Seeds into my SB because it was just random junk sorcery I thought might be funny (and affinity... yeah... affinity...) but I decided to keep it in when I started getting real cards because this isn't the first time I've had Jitte+Batterskull landed against me. I will most likely replace it with shattering spree (because affinity isn't a deck where I am, and it's probably just as effective anyway) I just need to get one.

I don't play nearly as much as I'd like to, so I never actually got a chance to draw an opinion on Bonfire before swapping it out with Olivia, but I can say she will do some pretty fun shenanigans, as well as being a big ol flying beater in a deck without flying. She also gets rid of lingering souls relatively effectively, and does more damage for it in the process (I think...?)

[Arianrhod]

Got to play my scapewish version in a small tournament last night (8 players, all on real decks).

List mods off of Arianrhod's sig...

No Elders
+1 Wood Elves (2)
+1 Scavanging Ooze / -1 Huntmaster (I don't have a third huntmaster, but like the ooze for GY hate...lot of dredge in my meta)
-1 Top
+2 Olivia Voldaren
(no stomping grounds, no stronghold, more basics, generally "not as good" manabase).

Most notable change to my SB: 1x Seeds of Innocence

Played up against Goblins, BUG Control, and Stoneblade

Goblins: This deck isn't to bad for us I don't think. He kept slow vial hands basically ever game. G1 was basically just sweep after sweep into a shift for the win (yay for fetch lands). G2 I kept a terrible hand (the more you know!), something to the effect of 4 lands, 2 tops, no business. This game would have been the same as G1 had I mulled, as he actually stayed on another slow vial hand. G3 he goes to 5, sweeps and thragtusks into a shift.

Rich on BUG Control: Rich is a friend of mine, and an extremely good pilot. I was in luck here, because it was his first time playing this BUG list (he's usually on esperblade). G1 goes pretty quick with a shift for lethal after some back and forth and control.

G2 drug on into a JTM followed by a top deck Lilly. Had it not been for the Lilly I MAY have been able to come back from this from the tusk on the board.

G3 Saw a top for him and no top for me. It was pretty brutal all things told, but I don't remember any specifics.

Oro on Stoneblade: I got a slight advantage because this guy doesn't usually play legacy, although he was on a very competent stoneblade list. G1 ends pretty quick with a shift for lethal. He was (apparently) holding FOW and just didn't counter it.

G2 drruuuggg on in top deck mode. For the first time of the night I landed Olivia, and she offed a vet for me to cast scapeshift for lethal (jace got pitched to FoW this time). Supreme verdict made her go buhbye, I landed hunt master at some point and he did his flip dance turn after turn. At some point he got down Batterskull which I had fun blocking with huntmaster tokens, then Jitte came behind it and made mr. wolf die. I was spinning my top again and again until finally I saw something useful--burning wish. Ripped wish, grabbed my board (intending to scapeshift) and realized I had already wished for it! Next best thing... Seeds of Innocence!! Wish/Cast seeds (by now everyone there was watching it) and I got a resounding "Oooooo" from my random singleton. Wipes Jitte/Batterskull, and I was able to go beat down from there. Ended the game at like 24

--End Report

I had originally thrown Seeds into my SB because it was just random junk sorcery I thought might be funny (and affinity... yeah... affinity...) but I decided to keep it in when I started getting real cards because this isn't the first time I've had Jitte+Batterskull landed against me. I will most likely replace it with shattering spree (because affinity isn't a deck where I am, and it's probably just as effective anyway) I just need to get one.

I don't play nearly as much as I'd like to, so I never actually got a chance to draw an opinion on Bonfire before swapping it out with Olivia, but I can say she will do some pretty fun shenanigans, as well as being a big ol flying beater in a deck without flying. She also gets rid of lingering souls relatively effectively, and does more damage for it in the process (I think...?)

Yeah, Olivia grows whenever she deals damage to something.

If there's a lot of Dredge in your meta, Sakura-Tribe Elder will help at least marginally, since you can sacrifice it at any time to nuke their Bridges.

If you're primarily worried about equipment, then you want Shattering Spree for sure. If you're worried about something like Metalworker, Pulverize is the go-to.

If the Olivia had stuck around, what impact do you think she would have had on the game? Assume that your opponent would have drawn the Verdict 2-3 turns in the future.

@ELC --

I feel that a Standstill-based list should be oriented more around the planeswalkers and less around the creatures. Like, dropping Jace into Standstill is busted, let alone something that actually generates board presence, like Garruk Relentless.

If you're on the Living Wish plan, then I think that you should cut the Green Suns. Green Suns as additional Explorers is good, but keep in mind that Standstill is essentially Explorers 5-8 already -- people are either going to break it, in which case you draw 3, or, more commonly, they're going to let it sit there for a few turns while they jockey for mana advantage. These few turns will allow you to just sit there making land drops with nary a concern, and when that Standstill does end up breaking, bad things are going to happen to them, because Nic Fit.

Tabernacle should probably be in your Wishboard. It'll be better there IMO, since it'll be more accessible. Also, you're on Standstills with 0 Wastelands or Factories? That seems really poor.

I'd make it more of a Standstill deck overall, to be honest, and I would flip the Brainstorms and Standstills (4 Stills, 2 Storms). Drawing cards is almost always better than drawing, then putting back, at least in a Nic Fit shell where we can get full value out of every card we draw since we generally have more resources than everyone else.

I'll try to theorize a token list and a Standstill list and put them up later for people to pick apart.

[Viridia]

I'll try to theorize a token list and a Standstill list and put them up later for people to pick apart.

I've been working on a token-ish list, so far i came up with this:

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

14 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer



21 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Collective Blessing
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Humility
4 Lingering Souls
1 Null Profusion
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Garruk Relentless


I'm not sure about the Deathrite Shamans tho, if i were to replace them, i'd get back 1 or probably 2 Deeds, and get rid of some Abrupt Decays

[Siiig]

If the Olivia had stuck around, what impact do you think she would have had on the game? Assume that your opponent would have drawn the Verdict 2-3 turns in the future.


Honestly, she probably would have just taken the game. iirc I had something to ping not far off (something of my own) that way I could have kept growing her. By the time she hit the board I was on like 10 mana (who needs damnation, ammiright?) and more importantly, at that point my opponent was at something like... 10 health? She gets there if she has a chance to.

[Alexeezay]

Olivia seems also great against Confidants when facing BUG or Lingering Souls Tokens & other stuff. She's very often like a 4th Pernicious Deed I feel, to get rid of creatures and dominate the board.
I'm not sure if I want to cut the 2 Bonfires from my Scapewish deck for the next rather large tournament (200+/- players) for Abrupt Decays or additional ramp because they can be versatile and safe your ass in lot of situations (while Decay kills the fast rug's Delver always safely).
I guess the answer is to play 2 Olivias here? :)

[Siiig]

Olivia seems also great against Confidants when facing BUG or Lingering Souls Tokens & other stuff. She's very often like a 4th Pernicious Deed I feel, to get rid of creatures and dominate the board.
I'm not sure if I want to cut the 2 Bonfires from my Scapewish deck for the next rather large tournament (200+/- players) for Abrupt Decays or additional ramp because they can be versatile and safe your ass in lot of situations (while Decay kills the fast rug's Delver always safely).
I guess the answer is to play 2 Olivias here? :)

It seems realistic to swap the 2 fires for 2 olivias. As I mentioned in my previous post they more or less serve the same person, if not for more damage out of Olivia.

Olivia: 4 mana, no need to worry about dead card on open and tossing a turn on miracle.

Bonfire: Assuming the same mana cost, your going to do a max of 1 damage from your hand, or 3 from the top deck. This may wipe the board a little better, but your swing with olivia will net you the same damage on the player.

From the above points forward, Olivia will pull ahead simply because 1) she can swing again, and 2) she can start target killing all the nasty stuff you don't want to deal with.

[Arianrhod]

I will be the first to say that Bonfire was amazing just a few short weeks ago. However, with the metagame shift to BUG and Junk, Junk especially, it's very lackluster now. Junk's theats are just too damn beefy, and they run up to 3 Teegs in the sideboard (which you can bet they're going to bring in). Teeg already shuts down our Zeniths and half of our wishboard, to say nothing of Scapeshift itself. Switching out two dead cards (Bonfire being an X spell is uncastable) for two more ways to kill Teeg (or, more commonly, just steal their Knights and Goyfs) seems like the way to go. In a weenie-based or tribal-heavy meta, I would still opt for the Bonfires. However, as the meta shifts to the chunkier threats, I think Olivia will shine. I haven't had a chance to test much yet, but the few goldfishes I've done have left me disappointed in Volrath's Stronghold, still, again, whatever. The 4th Top is a little harder to judge. Has anyone with more spare time than me been able to form an opinion on that yet?

At this point I'm strongly leaning towards going with the pair of Olivias over the 4th Top and the Stronghold. The other option is to keep it at 1x Sakura-Tribe and keep the 4th Top.

Also, got a bit of a pimp dilemma. My Rector list is (work-in-progress) Jap foil/Korean nonfoil/German FBB duals/Guru basics. That being said, do I go for judge foil Natural Orders, or Korean Visions Natural Orders? I need to figure this out before Charlotte so I can get whichever ones I go for signed :P I'm leaning towards Korean, because I think that if the NOs were the only English foil cards in the entire deck, it would just drive me nuts. That said, the Moat is English, because that's the best I can do for it. Obviously pimping is per personal taste and so on, but do Korean NOs seem roughly "right" to you guys in fitting with my aesthetic, compared to the foils??

[slikwilly]

That said, the Moat is English, because that's the best I can do for it.

I have never grokked this. It's like, for everything except Legends non-English = pimp. But Italian Legends aren't pimp. Why is that? (I personally have Italian Nethervoid, Karakas, and Moat for cost reasons, and Tabernacle for pack cracking luck reasons.)

Touching on Tabernacle, I've thought about throwing mine in the deck as a way to get a sac outlet but haven't for a few reasons. One, no way to tutor it up. Two, we ramp them too so the benefit of taxing opposing creatures is diminished. Three, I cannot convince myself to experiment w/ a card that expensive :) Maybe one can make a case for a single KotR to enable tutoring for a land toolbox of Karakas/Tabernacle/utility-land-of-choice though.

[Arianrhod]

I have never grokked this. It's like, for everything except Legends non-English = pimp. But Italian Legends aren't pimp. Why is that? (I personally have Italian Nethervoid, Karakas, and Moat for cost reasons, and Tabernacle for pack cracking luck reasons.)

Touching on Tabernacle, I've thought about throwing mine in the deck as a way to get a sac outlet but haven't for a few reasons. One, no way to tutor it up. Two, we ramp them too so the benefit of taxing opposing creatures is diminished. Three, I cannot convince myself to experiment w/ a card that expensive :) Maybe one can make a case for a single KotR to enable tutoring for a land toolbox of Karakas/Tabernacle/utility-land-of-choice though.

I think it's mostly because Italian is regarded as a singularly "un-pimp" language. I know a few people who actually prefer French or Italian because those are the languages that they took in high school (I took German in high school and in college, which is one reason why I love german cards as much as I do). But generally speaking, in the pimp community, Italian is regarded as hideous....as worse than English, in fact. Couple that with the various printing problems, as well, I THINK, that Italian Legends is more common or was more produced than English Legends (don't quote me on that), and thus, English Legends > Italian.

As for Tabby, I've thought of some kind of like Nic Fit Maverick hybrid with Knight of the Reliquary and an attending toolbox, but I think it'd be strictly worse than the token build that we're postulating currently, since both would involve essentially eschewing Deed. Rector in particular would love Tabby as an additional sac outlet, but the fact that it doesn't tap for mana is a serious concern in a ramp deck that prides itself on having more mana than the other guy. Some of it comes down to space, too. I've thought about trying a Crop Rotation package in the sideboard of Rector before, with like 2x Rotation, 1x Bog, 1x Karakas, 1x Tabby. But for all of that, you can have a NO package that's just better. It's a shame, really.

[Siiig]

I will be the first to say that Bonfire was amazing just a few short weeks ago. However, with the metagame shift to BUG and Junk, Junk especially, it's very lackluster now. Junk's theats are just too damn beefy, and they run up to 3 Teegs in the sideboard (which you can bet they're going to bring in). Teeg already shuts down our Zeniths and half of our wishboard, to say nothing of Scapeshift itself. Switching out two dead cards (Bonfire being an X spell is uncastable) for two more ways to kill Teeg (or, more commonly, just steal their Knights and Goyfs) seems like the way to go. In a weenie-based or tribal-heavy meta, I would still opt for the Bonfires. However, as the meta shifts to the chunkier threats, I think Olivia will shine. I haven't had a chance to test much yet, but the few goldfishes I've done have left me disappointed in Volrath's Stronghold, still, again, whatever. The 4th Top is a little harder to judge. Has anyone with more spare time than me been able to form an opinion on that yet?

At this point I'm strongly leaning towards going with the pair of Olivias over the 4th Top and the Stronghold. The other option is to keep it at 1x Sakura-Tribe and keep the 4th Top.

Also, got a bit of a pimp dilemma. My Rector list is (work-in-progress) Jap foil/Korean nonfoil/German FBB duals/Guru basics. That being said, do I go for judge foil Natural Orders, or Korean Visions Natural Orders? I need to figure this out before Charlotte so I can get whichever ones I go for signed :P I'm leaning towards Korean, because I think that if the NOs were the only English foil cards in the entire deck, it would just drive me nuts. That said, the Moat is English, because that's the best I can do for it. Obviously pimping is per personal taste and so on, but do Korean NOs seem roughly "right" to you guys in fitting with my aesthetic, compared to the foils??

I didn't even consider Olivia as a response to Teegs haha.


For the pimp dilemma. Do they not make foil korean cards??

[Zombie]

Korean Visions Natural Orders

Viridia, for your list, - Deranged Hermit, + Garruk, Primal Hunter ?

[Viridia]

Viridia, for your list, - Deranged Hermit, + Garruk, Primal Hunter ?

That might be a possibility, pumping out 4 4/4 or 5/5 tokens is quite awesome with Hermit tho ;) I'll have to test if i like the Hermit or not.

[slikwilly]

I think it's mostly because Italian is regarded as a singularly "un-pimp" language. I know a few people who actually prefer French or Italian because those are the languages that they took in high school (I took German in high school and in college, which is one reason why I love german cards as much as I do). But generally speaking, in the pimp community, Italian is regarded as hideous....as worse than English, in fact. Couple that with the various printing problems, as well, I THINK, that Italian Legends is more common or was more produced than English Legends (don't quote me on that), and thus, English Legends > Italian.

Interesting. Were I into pimping my deck, I'd probably go w/ whatever language is not the traditional pimp language. I like things off the beaten path. Japanese seems to be the typical pimp of choice, so I'd avoid it. But I like my cards in English. And non-foil. Artist signatures though? That I am on board with :) (Looking forward to Denver which has Dan Frazier, Steve Argyle, Chris Rahn and Doug Shuler.)

[Siiig]

SUP BLAYNE


Now that that's out of the way, I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers on LED Dredge. Arianrhod's primer only mentions what to therapy. Are there any other nifty tricks to take advantage of, or play lines to go after?

I'm considering bringing flat hate into my SB, because I know the MU exists within my meta.

[Arianrhod]

SUP BLAYNE


Now that that's out of the way, I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers on LED Dredge. Arianrhod's primer only mentions what to therapy. Are there any other nifty tricks to take advantage of, or play lines to go after?

I'm considering bringing flat hate into my SB, because I know the MU exists within my meta.

LED Dredge is a rough matchup, especially for Scapewish. Rector's a little better situated because they basically can't beat Moat, and they -really- can't beat Humility -- though obviously it depends on the individual lists.

A lot of it depends on how batshit they go. If they have a slow start, we're in better shape because it gives us some time to set up a sacrifice to poof the Bridges, or to Slaughter Games something important (usually Dread Return). If they go like LED, LED, Breakthrough....yeah....you're probably fucked. Unfortunately, there is little that Scapewish can do. Sitting on a Deed to kill zombie tokens is good, remembering that you can poof bridges with Explorers (or, better, an instant-speed sacced Sakura-Tribe) is important....uh....yeah. If you open up the stone nuts and have a turn 3 kill then you're in good shape, I guess.

Note that you -could- probably fix the dredge matchup if you really wanted to, but it would probably compromise too much of the deck's other, more common matchups. Dredge is at a low-point overall right now due to Rest in Peace. If you have it locally then you might need to make some adjustments, but if you were to take the deck to a larger venue like a Mythic/Jupiter/SCG/GP/etc (scaling up in terms of size, obviously), I'd probably leave it alone and just accept that Dredge is a matchup you have to dodge.

Edit for REB/Pyroblast. They are useful here since they hit Breakthrough, Chain of Vapor, and can kill Narcomoebas. Not as much vs Manaless, but they're still money vs LED Dredge.

[Siiig]

LED Dredge is a rough matchup, especially for Scapewish. Rector's a little better situated because they basically can't beat Moat, and they -really- can't beat Humility -- though obviously it depends on the individual lists.

A lot of it depends on how batshit they go. If they have a slow start, we're in better shape because it gives us some time to set up a sacrifice to poof the Bridges, or to Slaughter Games something important (usually Dread Return). If they go like LED, LED, Breakthrough....yeah....you're probably fucked. Unfortunately, there is little that Scapewish can do. Sitting on a Deed to kill zombie tokens is good, remembering that you can poof bridges with Explorers (or, better, an instant-speed sacced Sakura-Tribe) is important....uh....yeah. If you open up the stone nuts and have a turn 3 kill then you're in good shape, I guess.

Note that you -could- probably fix the dredge matchup if you really wanted to, but it would probably compromise too much of the deck's other, more common matchups. Dredge is at a low-point overall right now due to Rest in Peace. If you have it locally then you might need to make some adjustments, but if you were to take the deck to a larger venue like a Mythic/Jupiter/SCG/GP/etc (scaling up in terms of size, obviously), I'd probably leave it alone and just accept that Dredge is a matchup you have to dodge.

Edit for REB/Pyroblast. They are useful here since they hit Breakthrough, Chain of Vapor, and can kill Narcomoebas. Not as much vs Manaless, but they're still money vs LED Dredge.

Thanks a bunch for the info! I may try pulling in crypts into the board. I was actually talking to Kich867 earlier about it, and he had similar comments as you. Holding ritual in GY to snag bridges on my turn etc.

[HoneyT]

Also, for what it's worth, most other versions in my experience have a significanlt easier time with Dredge. I don't know if I've ever lost a sactioned match to Dredge with GB and have lost very very little in playtesting. As Arianrhod said, Rector also has an easier time with it. If Dredge is heavy in your meta, consider switching flavors.

[nottz]

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Thragtusk
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Acidic Slime
2 Abrupt Decay

I was just reading about the idea of a Standstill list. I came up with this. I'm sure Primal Hunter wants a spot in here pretty badly but I'm not sure if the mana will work well enough, especially with factories. How do you guys feel about the split of brainstorm and top? I think I should probably be running more fetches but I'm not positive on that. Having any of the planeswalkers on the field and following it up with a standstill is amazing regardless though. They have to break it and you get more cards to just overwhelm them. I really love the idea of Standstill, I'm just not sure how to make it work.

[vilnico]

Hey guys

Just saw Chris Higashi's Deck Tech from SCV Vegas 6th December : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NfsXn8KiQ
Just was wondering if anyone else had tested Ifh Biff Efreet ? Which looks quite nice to me.

On another hand, I just reminded Elspeth Tirel ultimate, which is a sweeper/staller. Which means good in Nic Fit. Anyone tried it ?

[Siiig]

Hey guys

Just saw Chris Higashi's Deck Tech from SCV Vegas 6th December : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NfsXn8KiQ
Just was wondering if anyone else had tested Ifh Biff Efreet ? Which looks quite nice to me.

On another hand, I just reminded Elspeth Tirel ultimate, which is a sweeper/staller. Which means good in Nic Fit. Anyone tried it ?

Ifh-Biff is a really nifty card. Would be good tech versus spirits. Ironically, since it deals damage to all players, it could also be good tech to deal a lot of damage.

Atleast in Scapeshift, we're already aiming to gain some life, no reason not to take advantage of that by shortening another players clock a little further.

[vilnico]

Ifh-Biff is a really nifty card. Would be good tech versus spirits. Ironically, since it deals damage to all players, it could also be good tech to deal a lot of damage.

Atleast in Scapeshift, we're already aiming to gain some life, no reason not to take advantage of that by shortening another players clock a little further.

Well Higashi's list was BG only, so here it makes sense to have some remote "life beater", especially when it kills Jace very nicely. For example
G : to kill your idiot clique and/or spirits, and 1 into Jace
then Fly-Attack into Jace, then maybe 1 more G to finish Jace, or stack plenty of G to get him out.

Of course it hurts, but it basically it means GSZ kills Jace and stupid flying stuff.

[Qweerios]

I gave Collective Blessing a spin and ended up with this:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Academy Rector

Spells (26)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Bitterblossom
1 Attrition
1 Collective Blessing

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands (21)
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Memoricide
2 Extirpate
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Null Profusion
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


The strangest thing about this list is that it doesn't play much green. Sadly, I lost to most fair decks with this list because I didn't have Deed to split them in half and perhaps because most of them had Deathrite Shaman and knew how to use it. Also, I don't think it's possible to play an Explorer.dec without GSZ.

If this deck ever becomes viable, what should I name it? I think "Soul Collector" would catch on more but I am kinda leaning towards "Collective Suicide".

[Tao]

BUG:

I don't think that Standstill is the right choice for Nic Fit. Standstill is best in a different type of deck. It should be played with a lot of cheap answers, Force of Will being a prime example. You can keep the board empty with Force and Standstill lets you redraw the spent cards and create CA. Standstill wants lots of Removal and Counters to be at its best.

4 Brainstorm should be played without a doubt. You can run a few Tops to supplement it. Brainstorm is the by far best card in the format to begin with and it shines even more in a nonlinear deck like Nic Fit that plays situational cards like Ramp, Discard, Removal and heavy threats.

I see no reason to play Wickerbough Elder, Thrun or Acidic Slime. Just play more Thragtusks instead. With Deed and Decay there are enough solutions for Artifacts and Enchantments and Thrag is so much better than Slime/Elder that it isn't even funny. Same with Thrun: just run Thragtusk instead.

I really like Damnation. Instead of 4 Deed I would play 2 Deed and 2 Damnation. Damnation gets Tombstalker, plays around Stifle and is cheaper.

3 Jace is the minimum I think. Jace is the perfect card for the deck.


@Qweerios: Agreed on GSZ. Whenever I tried to go below 4 GSZ I failed miserably. I understand the motivation behind it but it has never worked out for me. Attrition is a really great idea. I'd say don't play Swords to Plowshares or DR Shaman, go with mass removal, GSZ and Abrupt Decay instead.

[Qweerios]

I am inclined to agree with Tao as well on the opinion that additional Thragtusk > Thrun and most bombs in general. Thragtusk is difficult to mitigate for most legacy decks and tossing in additional ones only buries our opponent deeper.

[nottz]

@Qweerios

I was curious as to your current BUG Gifts list? If you could post it, it would be nice so I have a starting point to start working on mine.

[Higashi]

Hello Everyone sorry for the delay in posting anything on this forum, I am very busy during the weekdays with work, I noticed a lot of questions about my build and such.... First off the Nic Fit deck I played at SCG Vegas was really bad, I would not recommend playing it to anyone, I did like the Ifh-Biff Efreet though, He wreaks Jace and Clique. Sadly lots of decks are starting to play green, so he dies to himself often. Also I got lots of hate about the Silklash Spider, I put him in the list that morning because I kept getting crushed by Tombstalker, and I wanted an answer to he that could help me out in a few other areas (Kills Angel tokens, spirit tokens, etc.) The Spider was not that bad, but I wouldn't play he again either.

I played in the SCG Invitational the following week and I really wanted to play Nic Fit, but my teammates told me to play a "Real" deck, so I played BUG control to a lousy top 64 place (I should have played Nic Fit). The following day I played in the SCG LA Open, Here is a quick report and decklist;

Nic Fit (Rector)
3 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chains of Mephistopeles
1 Cranial Extraction
3 Extirpate
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Humility
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nether Void
1 Strangleroot Geist

Round 1: Ariane (5-color infect)
G1: Ariane is a young kid from SoCal, he tells me this is his first event and his mom is standing behind him watching him play. He wins the die roll and decides to play first, he leads with a City of Brass and a Duty Bound Dead!!!! I think wow, "Bye" I have a solid hand with Rector, therapy, deed, witness and a couple lands. Ariane plays blighted agent on two, and then kills me on three with an assortment of pump spells on his infect dude, WTF!!! I lost to a kid playing Duty Bound Dead???
G2: I play first, cast therapy, calling blighted agent, hit.... see hand full of pump spells, I turn 2 explorer, set up deed, and proceed to kill his hand and smash with big dudes, I don't thing Ariane played a single spell.
G3: I keep an opener of; Decay, deed, explorer, therapy, and 3 lands... Wow perfect. Ariane plays a turn 1 plague stinger off of a 5-color land and a lotus petal, I play therapy, calling vines, I hit, see a hand of pump spells.... Ariane takes his turn, swings at me pumps a bunch and I am dead!!!! To top it off Mom, who's been watching tells Ariane good job winning, can I buy you some dual lands???? Dagger! 0-1

Round 2: John Peacock (Junk)
I don't have many notes on this game, I just have my life total not changing very much, and his life total going to zero twice.
1-1

Round 3: Dane (U/W Stoneblade)
Dane was playing U/W Stoneblade with Spellstutter Sprite, he made a few game errors that let me that really let me dominate the game...i.e. trying to counter a GSZ for 1 with a lone Sprite. Like John last round I didn't take too many notes and my life sheet shows me going to 18 both games off of fetchlands and him scooping when I played Eldrazi conscription on a creature.
2-1

Round 4. Josh (Burn)
G1: Josh come out of the gates on fire, bolt, chain, hellspark, flame rift, fireblast... Toasty...
G2: I turn 1 DRS, turn 2 explorer with Tower, drop rector, turn 3 sac rector, conscript the DRS, GG.
G3: We have a long drawn out game where i'm on the backfoot the whole time, I am forced to Fetters his land, and try and scrap by with DRS eating dudes, Josh misses on a bunch of triggers (Keldon Marauders, Vortex) that kept my life higher then i should have been, I ran him out of cards and beatdown with witness and DRS.
3-1

Round 5. Zac Meza (Belcher)
G1: I know Zac, we game together and I loan him decks for FNM, I know he is on Belcher, I win the die roll, yes! I might be able to win a game, I therapy him on 1 for Belcher, I get 1, He has a bunch of ramp and Empty... He takes his turn makes a ton of Goblins, I take my turn cast Explorer flashback therapy, play Deed, let him take his turn, I deed the board, proceed to win via dudes. Wow...
G2. Zac snap keeps makes 12 goblins and says go, I play an explorer, Zac swings I block, get 2 lands, take my turn and pulse his board, 2 turns later I play Nether Void and seal the game with Titan and Deed.
4-1

Round 6: Billy (U/W/G/B Super Greedy Good Stuff Deck)
G1: Billy is playing a really Greedy deck with Stifle, wasteland, Bob, Force, Geist of Saint Traft, and Goyf, I think he has some Planeswalkers too, but I never see them. I out ramp him game 1 with Explorer and play a Sigarda and bash each turn for 5, He plays some dudes that die to Deed, he's never really in the game.
G2. I board out the Explorers and bring in Carpet of flowers, we have a pretty close game but I manage to drain him down with DRS and beatdown with Sigarda.
5-1

Round 7:Andy (Dreadstill)
G1: Andy brought back a classic deck from Legacy's past, He played a turn 1 Scalding Tarn cracked it for a Volcanic and Brainstormed and passed, I played a Therapy in the blind, I thought he might be on "Sneak and Show" so I named Show and Tell, I saw a Phyrexian Dreadnought, Grim Lavamancer, Standstill, Daze, Mishra's Factory, and a Force.Andy takes his turn and plays Mishra's and Standstill. I am forced to break the standstill or die to the Mishra's, I never draw a Deed or any other action, Dreadnought eventually lands and I get trampled to death.
G2. I get to go first, I manage to put a threat down before he can play Standstill, I land a Moat and Humility and he is out of the game I sandbag a Sigarda and put a Conscription on her, Vindicate my Humility and Swing in for Victory.
G3: I got destroyed by a turn 2 Dreadnought and I couldn't draw a deed or decay.
5-2

Round 8: Joe (U/W Miracles)
G1: I'm on the beatdown with a turn 4 Sigarda, off of Explorer mana, and I'm holding off his Batterskull with a moat. I swing in for the death blow, he Brainstorms into Entreat blocks my Sigarda and smashes my face in. I hate Miracles.
G2. Game goes back and forth, he out draws me with back to back Jace the Mind Sculptors.
5-3

Round 9: Jim Davis (Goblins)
G1: Jim is a well know East Coast Goblin player, he's on the play and lands a Vial, I Therapy him for Ringleader, hit. He has Lackey, War Marshall, Gempalm plus a Mountain. I see his hand and know he has no way of winning, I play Veteran, Therapy again discover he only plays 3 basics due to his lack of finding a second Mountain. I play Deed, and a few turns later I land a Sun Titan and have recurring Deed.
G2: Jim has the gas, Lackey into Ringleader, into more goblins, into death.
G3: Similar to the first game, I out class him with double Explorer and double Therapy, He has no hand and is looking at me like "How can I be losing to this pile of Cube cards" I smash him with Sun Titan and Deed again.
6-3

Placed in the money... I felt like the games I lost could have been won by a Deed or a Decay (I'll have to think about that going into the future). I really liked this list and I'll most likely play it in Denver plus and extra Deed somewhere.

Props to Starcitygames running a fantastic event, Jason Hughes for lending my team some cards, Brian Page for the fantastic Standard list, Veteran Explorer for being a Boss, and Arianrhod for keeping up with this deck I look at your list for a base and expand from there.
Slops to Deed for not showing up when I need you.

I'm off from work for a couple weeks for the holiday, so feel free to shoot me any questions about the deck or sideboarding.

[Greenpoe]

@ Higashi, would you play Conscription again? Was Strangleroot Geist ever relevant (or did you ever use the sideboard copy)?

[Higashi]

@ Higashi, would you play Conscription again? Was Strangleroot Geist ever relevant (or did you ever use the sideboard copy)?

The Conscription was great, it gave me a quick clock that i could rector for, i swung in on turn 3 a couple of times with a suited up DRS, the geist was really good at surprise attacking planeswalkers, i did side the other one in, once against the goblins player (i wanted more blockers) and against the control decks with wrath effects and jaces.

[Zombie]

Conscription is awesome. You sniff a weakness, you kill. It seems too vulnerable in theory, but with the recursive back up plans this deck has, hey, you got 10+ life... Againt other decks, wtf are they going to do to it? As a bonus, it utterly mauls combo decks' measly board positions.

[litenkatt]

@Higashi

That conscription was really awesome indeed.. works against s&t decks too if u have a creature in play that is

1. I'm wondering how you feel about the yosei/recurring nightmare lock. Seems like you didn't get it to work this tournament but in general, do you think they deserve a spot in this deck? Or might it just be better to add 2x decay or something?

2. Planeswalkers. I always try to play a few of them in my nic fit decks because of their synergy with deed. Elspeth gives flying to your ground creatures which could be relevant if you have Moat in play. Garruk Relentless seems very good too. Liliana?

[Chatto]

@ Higashi

First of all, i'm longtime lurker, playing BG Nic Fit for a long time. I was wondering how DRS worked out for you? Which function did you used the most?

I was planning to play DRS myself, so I'm very curious about your opinion.

[Zombie]

@Higashi

That conscription was really awesome indeed.. works against s&t decks too if u have a creature in play that is

1. I'm wondering how you feel about the yosei/recurring nightmare lock. Seems like you didn't get it to work this tournament but in general, do you think they deserve a spot in this deck? Or might it just be better to add 2x decay or something?

2. Planeswalkers. I always try to play a few of them in my nic fit decks because of their synergy with deed. Elspeth gives flying to your ground creatures which could be relevant if you have Moat in play. Garruk Relentless seems very good too. Liliana?

If my Highlander (!=EDH, I mean sane Magic) deck that's basically Rector-Fit is any indication - it seems to mirror Nic Fit trends thus far - the Yosei lock isn't really needed. What is good are instant kill conditions like Hulk combo and Conscription, recursive beaters (primarily Titan and the Twin Towers and lifegain dorks), hexproof beaters, the newer Garruk iterations (though Elspeth can be fine - small tokens seem comparably better in Legacy). It's different for you, but a small equipment package has been working wonders for me vs. control. That's probably due to having a lot of small dudes instead of Veteran-Therapy, though. In Legacy I'd just pack more Garruks I think.

[Qweerios]

Since I have been requested lists for my Nic Fit decks more than usual as of late, I decided to post them in my Sig the same way Arianrhod did. I posted the lists that brought me the most success so far over the past year. I posted all of the lists on the same page for those interested in knowing how I build my Nic Fit decks as you are likely to detect patterns across the different lists. It currently contains my 3 BUG Fit decks, my straight BG list with Prime Titan, and my latest Rector list.

My next addition will probably be a Jarad's Order list now that Loyal Retainer is affordable. The Jarad version will definitely be more aggro-oriented too. The deck will definitely play Genesis/Shriekmaw and a number of Lilianas but I am still unsure about which Legend would be the most appropriate. I think Iona is the best choice but Grisselbrand, Sheoldred, and Elesh Norn are all very tempting.

[Tao]

@qweerios:

I do not think Jarad's Orders is good enough. Compare it to Gifts Ungiven. Gifts does everything better - remember that you don't have to find 4 cards. So if you want to reanimate something it gets you Unburial Rites + the same legend that Retainers would get you (or a nonlegend unlike Orders). On top of that it goes at Instant speed and of course it has the gigantic upside that you can also play it as a value card and use it to find solutions.


That said, I also do not think that Gifts Ungiven is good enough without a combo involved. I'd much rather have Jace for the same Mana so that I impact the board directly but that is debatable.

This is my current test list for reference:

http://pastebin.com/aSxuZ3Y2

[kabards]

Just a quick question.

Can Academy Rectors ability can be shut down by Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze remove from graveyard ability? Because the judge says here in our place, when Rector hits the graveyard and instantly removed by Deathrite / Scavenging Ooze immediately, the owner of Academy Rector can no longer search for an Enchantment that can be put on play. Someone enlightened me. Thanks. :cool:

[Barook]

Just a quick question.

Can Academy Rectors ability can be shut down by Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze remove from graveyard ability? Because the judge says here in our place, when Rector hits the graveyard and instantly removed by Deathrite / Scavenging Ooze immediately, the owner of Academy Rector can no longer search for an Enchantment that can be put on play. Someone enlightened me. Thanks. :cool:
The judge is correct.

They can remove it while the trigger is on the stack. Upon resolution, there is nothing there to remove and therefore, you can't do anything.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I am shamed: I lost to my friend's mostly-white casual Rebel deck with Dig Fit. I mean . . . how can I describe it? It was just a struggle to stabilize because of the Swords/O-Rings, his absurd amount of basic lands with Mirror Entity, the aggro assault that somehow he kept recovering even after Deed, Therapy, and Pulse.

Makes me wonder how unwinnable Death and Taxes, Deadguy Ale, and other white-weenie decks are?

[slikwilly]

The judge is correct.

They can remove it while the trigger is on the stack. Upon resolution, there is nothing there to remove and therefore, you can't do anything.

It's worth noting also that I have encountered players who also thought the same of Veteran Explorer. The important part of the card text is that Academy Rector says, "If you do" while Explorer does not. What it amounts to though, is Rector needs to exile itself to work. If something else exiles it, it does not work. Explorer has no such limitation.


It was just a struggle to stabilize because of the Swords/O-Rings

Exile effects are definitely annoying. If you know they're on Plowshares or Path then you need to play around them. 1) Name those things with Therapy. 2) Don't run out an Explorer unless you have a sac outlet at the ready. Phyrexian Tower is great because you can use it at any time. But you can also Flashback your Therapy. Your line of play should be cast Therapy. Cast Veteran Explorer. After it resolves do not pass priority! Flashback Therapy.

[lambert101]

Hi all! I am going to try and play scapewsih for an upcoming tournament at a local game store. Average crowd is anywhere from 30-50 people. Took Arinahod's list and made some small changes:

Main: 61 cards

Mana base: 24 (10- green sources, 12- mountains)

3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Valakut
1 Phrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Dudes 14
4 Vetran Explorers
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells 23
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift


Board 15
3 pyroblast
3 Slaughter Games
1 pyroclasm
1 reanimate
1 thoughtseize
1 scapeshift
1 tsunami
1 malestrom pulse
1 innocent blood
1 virtue's ruin
1 damnation

Please let me know what you think. Biggest change is the 3 Abrupt Decays to deal with Liliania of the Veil, Delver, chalice of the void, and counterbalance. The stronghold is something new i am trying.

[AmishLuvah]

So I've been testing out Null Profusion and man is it amazing! Once that gets online, it's just a grind fest that not even counterspells can stop. Now it's the first thing that comes out vs. anything like Jund or anything else that has heavy discard, but against just about anything else you end up with so much gas you're almost unstoppable. Even against discard your tops can generate card draw to get you out of the hole if you have nothing else in hand.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Hi all! I am going to try and play scapewsih for an upcoming tournament at a local game store. Average crowd is anywhere from 30-50 people. Took Arinahod's list and made some small changes:

Main: 61 cards

Mana base: 24 (10- green sources, 12- mountains)

3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Valakut
1 Phrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Dudes 14
4 Vetran Explorers
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells 23
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift


Board 15
3 pyroblast
3 Slaughter Games
1 pyroclasm
1 reanimate
1 thoughtseize
1 scapeshift
1 tsunami
1 malestrom pulse
1 innocent blood
1 virtue's ruin
1 damnation

Please let me know what you think. Biggest change is the 3 Abrupt Decays to deal with Liliania of the Veil, Delver, chalice of the void, and counterbalance. The stronghold is something new i am trying.

I would definitely cut down to an even sixty (60) cards and in that regard cut the Wood Elves. 2x Thragtusk is too many and is not needed so go down to one. Also, 3x Huntmaster is also too many go down to two.

In relation to the side board, combo is the deck's weakness, therefore, I would play either Thoughtseize/ Duress or Mindbreak Trap.

[Qweerios]

@Tao,

Well of course Jarad's Order isn't like Gifts but one isn't strictly superior than the other. For having tested it a long time ago, Gifts and Unburial Rites are extremely unstable together and hardly worth the 4th color. Jarad's order, just like Natural Order, is right in Nic Fit's core colors and fits much better in a BGW shell. Here is my idea for a Jarad's Nic Fit deck abusing GSZ to its maximum:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Shriekmaw
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells (25)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Vindicate
2 Jarad's Order

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (21)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb


Also, regarding your list, I have recently adopted the 2nd Thragtusk in a lot of lists but I think more than 2 is overboard. It is still 5 mana, not worth having multiples in an opener IMO.

[Claymore]

Looks like blue fit might get a new card advantage toy, practically a Glimpse of Nature on a stick that can be fetched with GSZ

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/fm_54bxsyhsjv_01.png

[AmishLuvah]

Looks like blue fit might get a new card advantage toy, practically a Glimpse of Nature on a stick that can be fetched with GSZ

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/special/gtc_card_preview/fm_54bxsyhsjv_01.png

Now that does look spicy. I wonder how/if it could be abused in nic fit...

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Eh ... it does look spicy ... but it's effectiveness is limited because it has to be a creature with greater power or toughness entering the battlefield, and we only run a few powerhouse creatures.

Best bet might just be to loop Thragtusk/Titan, get about four/five cards, then loop her once and finally repeat?

[Zirath]

Eh ... it does look spicy ... but it's effectiveness is limited because it has to be a creature with greater power or toughness entering the battlefield, and we only run a few powerhouse creatures.

Best bet might just be to loop Thragtusk/Titan, get about four/five cards, then loop her once and finally repeat?

Doesn't this trigger multiple times off token generators like say Deranged Hermit or Grave Titan?

[Qweerios]

She's pretty bad as a 4drop for Nic Fit. She will never reach a reasonable size, and she is even less likely than Dark Confidant to cantrip. Definitely not good enough.

[slikwilly]

Doesn't this trigger multiple times off token generators like say Deranged Hermit or Grave Titan?

I think those are both going to net you a good number of cards, but is it worth the setup? It's a 4 drop that on it's own seems pretty poor and requires you to combo it w/ a 5 or 6 drop to be useful. Given the mana requirements for that, you're probably spreading it out over two turns, giving ample opportunity for it to be dealt with. Plus you're probably looking at a 3rd turn before you're able to utilize any of that draw.

I'd probably rather play it with Wall of Omens/Blossoms. The walls cantrip on their own and can help keep you alive long enough to land something like a titan (of course if the mage has triggered previously then you're not getting any value out of the tokens).

That said, I won't be switching to blue for this.

[conboy31]

Seems pretty bad to me. I'd rather do something optimistic like play Edric as the GSZ target and lingering souls over that newly spoiled creature.

[Zirath]

I think those are both going to net you a good number of cards, but is it worth the setup? It's a 4 drop that on it's own seems pretty poor and requires you to combo it w/ a 5 or 6 drop to be useful. Given the mana requirements for that, you're probably spreading it out over two turns, giving ample opportunity for it to be dealt with. Plus you're probably looking at a 3rd turn before you're able to utilize any of that draw.

I'd probably rather play it with Wall of Omens/Blossoms. The walls cantrip on their own and can help keep you alive long enough to land something like a titan (of course if the mage has triggered previously then you're not getting any value out of the tokens).

That said, I won't be switching to blue for this.

I'm just saying you don't need to loop it for it draw cards.

[AmishLuvah]

After due consideration I think that Recycle/Null Profusion would just be superior. What can I say? I'm a convert. :)

[Siiig]

3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Mountain
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Valakut
1 Phrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Dudes 14
4 Vetran Explorers
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells 23
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift


Board 15
3 pyroblast
3 Slaughter Games
1 pyroclasm
1 reanimate
1 thoughtseize
1 scapeshift
1 tsunami
1 malestrom pulse
1 innocent blood
1 virtue's ruin
1 damnation


Sup Lambert,

This looks solid, and follows the current shift list pretty well. I believe Arianrhod has actually mentioned that the three slots you have decay in work great as decays, it's just fun to try and find possible better slot alternatives (or something to that effect, decay is solid, period).

I personally run +1 wood elves -1 elder, but that split is more or less to taste.

The 3rd huntmaster represents the epic "61st" card. I happen to agree with Arianrhod's (and many others) feelings that GSZ makes a 61st card not only playable but relevant.

I really didn't like Stronghold in my testing, I think it's a hold over from GBFit that scapewish doesn't need.

Ruin // Damnation I would ALMOST consider redundant.



On another note, Koth of the Hammer how bout this guy? Some silly prime time hard cast/gsz shenanigans on deck.

Arianrhod: After playing for a while with Olivia, I've actually moved back to Malestrom Pulse, and am even considering jumping over to Abrupt Decay.

[Arianrhod]

Hmm, k. Good to know.

So, who's seen this baby?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138082&stc=1&d=1356423559

Obviously Primeval is still dramatically better, but the mechanic is really important to note. Depending on what they print with that mechanic, Scapewish could be getting one hell of a new toy.

I will also note that IMO Damnation and Ruin aren't redundant. Pyroclasm kills Elves/Goblins early (which is when you need it--also BW+Pyro happens on 4 mana, which is a magic number when facing a TES deck that's made a pile of goblins t1) Ruin kills Teeg. Damnation kills everything else. They do have some degree of cross-over, but each is actually pretty important to specific circumstances, and if you omit one of them, you will find situations where you'll regret that over the course of a tournament.

[Siiig]

Hmm, k. Good to know.

So, who's seen this baby?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138082&stc=1&d=1356423559

Obviously Primeval is still dramatically better, but the mechanic is really important to note. Depending on what they print with that mechanic, Scapewish could be getting one hell of a new toy.

I will also note that IMO Damnation and Ruin aren't redundant. Pyroclasm kills Elves/Goblins early (which is when you need it--also BW+Pyro happens on 4 mana, which is a magic number when facing a TES deck that's made a pile of goblins t1) Ruin kills Teeg. Damnation kills everything else. They do have some degree of cross-over, but each is actually pretty important to specific circumstances, and if you omit one of them, you will find situations where you'll regret that over the course of a tournament.

True facts.


I wish he was sitting at 5 mana and not 6. Having to share the spot with primetime is such a big deal.

I'm super pumped to see what else comes with the guild.

[Arianrhod]

It's not his mana cost that bothers me -- it's that he doesn't have either trample or protection (hexproof ideally). If he even had Haste....the problem is that he comes into play, and then he sits there. And maybe he's huge, but he doesn't -do- anything. He doesn't generate advantage when he comes into play. He's not a colossal beater like Sigarda which is just going to punch them to death and there isn't a goddamn they can do about it. He is, admittedly, a nice combat trick if you happen to draw him. But I don't see that happening very often, nor do I see it as being worth the spots.

Note: I'm not actually sure what I'm looking for. We know that Gruul has a very heavy lands-matter theme in the new set. We've seen their leader - the new Borygamos. He's a huge dude with a seismic assault stapled on to him, with an on-hit that puts lands into your hand from the top of your deck. Coupled with this card, it's very obvious that we could get something.

But what do we even really want?

Something like an Acidic Slime that can kill planeswalkers? Bloodrush 2GR, discard: deal X damage to target creature or player? That would be sexy as fuck, I guess, but if I'm reading the ability right, I believe that the actual "ability" part of Bloodrush is that it gives an attacking creature some benefit when you discard the card -- kind of like an updated Channel. Is all Bloodrush going to be formatted that way? Discard, pay mana, attacking creature gets bigger based on land count?

If so, then what? We wouldn't want to run it solely for the Bloodrush, although that could be a nice side benefit. Unless it's a mythic, they aren't going to make like a hasty Maro, I don't think. Even then I dunno. I guess that would probably be the ideal option? A hasty Maro with Bloodrush stapled on?

What do you guys think? What could they make with Bloodrush that we would really want -- enough to value it over Abrupt Decay (with whom it would currently be fighting for slots with -- I don't see anything replacing Huntmaster or Thragtusk as the main "beef" slots).

[Qweerios]

If KotR and Goyf don't make the cut for Nic Fit, I don't see why Rubblehulk would. The Bloodrush ability is very weak and even if it were a vanilla 8/8 for 6, I still wouldn't touch it with an 11 foot pole.

@All the 61+ cards in their deck people,

The notion of having more than 60 cards in a deck where consistency is a major factor for the sake of availlability is utterly ridiculous (All non-highlander decks fall within this category). If your deck contains playsets (AKA: Core), which means that you want to maximize your chances of finding that card as they are focal to your gameplan, then how can you even consider having a 61st card? That one card on its own dimishes your odds of drawing all of the most important cards of your deck. If said 61st card is truly worth its weight, then it means that there is something already in your deck that isn't as important, if not, then that 61st card doesn't belong. I am really curious to hear any non-superstitious or non-special-snow-flake argument in favor of playing 61 cards in a deck containing anything else than 1-ofs. Guys wake up! This is basic statistics, think about it for a moment and you might understand why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in the format.

With that said:

@Siiig,

3rd Huntmaster, really? How many games have you won only because you managed to resolve 3 and how many games have you lost because your deck couldn't resolve more than 2? My guess is that only 1 side of this equation has been observed, the other has been ignored. Also, 3rd Decay, 2nd Sakura, 2nd Thragtusk, and 24th land are all numbers you can safely reconsider without dimming the redundancy of your 4 GSZ, 4 Therapies, 4 Explorers, and 4 Burning Wishes.

[slikwilly]

The notion of having more than 60 cards in a deck where consistency is a major factor for the sake of availlability is utterly ridiculous (All non-highlander decks fall within this category). If your deck contains playsets (AKA: Core), which means that you want to maximize your chances of finding that card as they are focal to your gameplan, then how can you even consider having a 61st card? That one card on its own dimishes your odds of drawing all of the most important cards of your deck. If said 61st card is truly worth its weight, then it means that there is something already in your deck that isn't as important, if not, then that 61st card doesn't belong. I am really curious to hear any non-superstitious or non-special-snow-flake argument in favor of playing 61 cards in a deck containing anything else than 1-ofs. Guys wake up! This is basic statistics, think about it for a moment and you might understand why Brainstorm is one of the best cards in the format.

That's really only partially true. Lets assume Chapin is correct when he says (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/12478_61_Cards_Magic_Russian_Roulette.html),
To put things in perspective regarding just how big 0.4 percentage points are, that is one extra loss every 250 games. The average match is 2.5 games. That means that by playing 61 cards one would take an extra loss roughly every 600 matches.

1 loss in 600 matches. I don't even get to play that many in a year! Putting that aside though, what if your local meta is heavy on deck X and card Y is really good in that matchup and tolerable in the others? Running said hypothetical card is then going to be worth > 1 win, thus negating the extra loss by running an extra card which earns you extra wins because you're playing against X a lot.

We run so much thinning and so many tutors I really don't get too worked up over the extra card. Yeah, the percentages favor 60 but I don't think it's that cut and dry. Hell, which card is "the 61st?" I look at my list and I'll be damned if I see a card that should go. This is a 'problem' I really only have w/ Nic Fit though.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

To be honest I'm in the 61 camp, but I'm also sure that a 61 deck needs to adjust its consistency to make the most of that extra card.

Will go into deeper analysis when I get home.

[Qweerios]

We run so much thinning and so many tutors I really don't get too worked up over the extra card. Yeah, the percentages favor 60 but I don't think it's that cut and dry. Hell, which card is "the 61st?" I look at my list and I'll be damned if I see a card that should go. This is a 'problem' I really only have w/ Nic Fit though.

I'm afraid this doesn't go in favor of the 61 card camp. With so much deck thinning, that 1 in 600 game shrinks rather fast. Considering how Nic Fit isn't exactly like most other Legacy decks and how games usualy go long and our library grows small, I would guess that something along the lines of 1 out of 200 is more accurate. I can't give you numbers because I don't exactly know how to quantify that but I can give you a reasonable explanation as to why 1 out of 200 or 1 out of 1000 isn't exactly the most relevant statistic in the way that, I assume, you intended it. Take this into consideration:

If a 61st card affects the consistency of the rest of your deck in a way that makes you lose 1 match out of 600, in order for the 61st card to have an effect greater than this statistic is to assume that the card is a major component of the deck (AKA: Teeg in GB Nic Fit as a MD vs. SB card) because every card has a purpose. But here is not the issue at hand. The 61st card is NOT a silver bullet or a redundantly good card because the Nic Fit core is narrow, it's removal suite is maleable, and the creature base is toolbox oriented (because it isn't a highlander deck). While it may often be seen as card X, the 61st card is most often card Y: a 3rd Pulse, 4th Pulse, 3rd Thoughtseize/IB, or a 4th Top even. The reality is that most Nic Fit decks have plenty of room to work with but the deck-builder refuses to see it because some number changes are outside of their comfort zone or simply not part of their established convention of Nic Fit deck construction.

So, if I go back to this 1/600 statistic, how many games do you think would either go in your favor or out of your favor if you had a 3rd Huntmaster? 4th Decay? 4th Top? I think that those card choices converted into win/loss statistics as the 61st card was are significantly less impactful than the 61st card itself (something like 1 out of 10 000 or so). Otherwise, why not have 61, 62, or even 65 cards in your deck if it only affects 1 out of 150 of your matches. Or even better, why not just play the maximum number of cards possible in order for those cards to have, say, a +-5% impact on your win/loss ratio by that statistical logic...

Post your list and I am certain that I, despite having probably never played your list, can find at least 1-5 flex slots.

In short, if an extra card incurs a 1 out of 600 matches loss penalty, the said extra card has to incur a match loss penalty lower than any of the cards already in the deck by itself, and the deck itself has to contain cards that individualy incur less than 1/600 match losses by themselves in order for a favorable tradeoff to be impossible.

[lambert101]

Hi all, list has been very smooth. So far I have not missed stomping grounds. I am going to try -1 Volrath's Stronghold and + 1 Forest. Decays have been awesome sauce and the pyroclam in the board was an amazing switch. Virtue is need as long as people play Teeg. The switched mana base has made post board games very smooth with the amount of black/red spells in board. I like the idea of Olivia but am going to stay with the decays for now.

[slikwilly]

Post your list and I am certain that I, despite having probably never played your list, can find at least 1-5 flex slots.

You've probably played similar; it is heavily influenced by Arianrhod's list.

Updated my sig to link to it, following our new convention. But for convenient reference:
61 Total Deck Count

Creatures
1 Starved Rusalka
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

Instants
1 Eladamri's Call

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


To my eyes, I can see a possible -2/+1 (that I'm going to refrain at the moment from calling out) though I question the correctness of it, which is why I haven't.

I am still less than convinced that there's a meaningful difference between 60 & 61 though. As for why not 62, 63, 65, 104, 241 1) I think [cards]Battle of Wits[cards] is stupid. 2) The real comparison is not the difference between 61 & 62 or 64 & 65 but 60 & 62 or 60 & 65. The percentages start to add up. I'm willing to tolerate the percentage change between 60 & 61. I am not willing to tolerate the change between 60 & 65.

[Kich867]

Starved Rusulka, thragtusk, eladamri's call, diabolic intent, sakura-tribe elder could all go with almost no impact on the deck.

I'm not for it one way or another, but I do find it interesting that people use the math of adding a 61st card and show how it statistically impacts your deck's consistency while in the same breath openly state that fetches have no statistical impact on your deck's consistency, yet the impact of a fetch is mathematically higher than a 61st card.

Maybe not specifically Qweerios, but if one were to state that a 61st card is strictly wrong because of the math then they'd have to agree with fetches have a statistically significant impact on the consistency of your deck, which I wonder how many people would agree with.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Not necessarily, as while Fetchlands can thin out more than just a single card each game, they also have a cost: paying 1 life per fetch will add up eventually and can have an impact in certain matchups.

Anyhow . . . should I cut Garruk Relentless from Dig Fit? I just don't feel like he's doing as much as he could be doing.

[Arianrhod]

Starved Rusulka, thragtusk, eladamri's call, diabolic intent, sakura-tribe elder could all go with almost no impact on the deck.

I'm not for it one way or another, but I do find it interesting that people use the math of adding a 61st card and show how it statistically impacts your deck's consistency while in the same breath openly state that fetches have no statistical impact on your deck's consistency, yet the impact of a fetch is mathematically higher than a 61st card.

Maybe not specifically Qweerios, but if one were to state that a 61st card is strictly wrong because of the math then they'd have to agree with fetches have a statistically significant impact on the consistency of your deck, which I wonder how many people would agree with.

Rusalka, Tusk, and Intent are all core cards for the Rector version. IMO at least 1x Thragtusk is core for all Nic Fit versions. Rusalka is critical to Rector because it allows you to Green Sun a sacrifice outlet, and while Intent is a little more questionable (and probably is the weakest card in the deck, if I'm being honest), it's also the "10th" sac-outlet, if you include Green Suns. Again, things Rector cares about. Intent is arguably on the chopping block, but I haven't decided on anything that I would want to replace it with.

As far as the 61st-card discussion, I'm going to immediately state that I was an English/Philosophy double major. AKA, I stay the hell away from math whenever possible. So I'm not going to dive into complicated statistics to back up what I'm going to say.

1. I'm not afraid of being a heretic and going against "conventional wisdom." Too many times people are sheeple and they just blindly follow whatever they see their betters doing. You can probably count the number of times that pros have played 61 on two hands. They HAVE occasionally done it -- either because they can't figure out the card to cut in time, or, especially during Lorwyn-Shards standard (5-color-control), they wanted an extra land. If you asked a pro about why they never run 61, you will probably receive something like a consistency argument, similar to what Qweerios proposed. However, there's another aspect at work here.

1A. Pros don't play decks like Nic Fit. They play things like RUG and Stoneblade. They almost never touch Maverick (unless their name is Kibler, who plays G/W in everything anyway). Unless they're named Ari Lax, they don't play Storm. Sneak Attack/Reanimator is the most combo that they really ever go, from what I've seen. Anyway, if you run 61 cards in a RUG deck, or a Stoneblade deck, you deserve what happens to you. Those are NOT 61-card-acceptable decks. In those decks, that extra card can be lethal. I will agree with that. But Nic Fit is a completely different monster.

2. "It feels right." I'm going to get my esoteric bullshit out of the way here. I'll be honest: I have actually tried running Nic Fit at 60. And, again, being honest, it "felt" smoother at 61. Now, I'll be damned if I know why. It's entirely possible that I just had an off- couple of days when I ran it at 60, and I'm just being superstitious/neurotic. I have no idea.

3. Kich points out fetches as deck thinning. ELC points out that fetches have drawbacks (you pay a life to use them). I will point out Veteran Explorer. Our #1 dude has no drawback, other than that he has to die (which we want him to anyway). Furthermore, he thins not just one land (1-for-1), but 2 (1-for-2). Once you set off a pair of Explorers, say, you're suddenly 4 "cards" up. The chance of that 61st card mucking anything up is retardedly low at this point.

3A. On a related tangent, Rector in particular is FILLED with cards that thin the deck out. Rector gets an enchantment (3). Sakura-Tribe gets a land (5). Explorers, as previously stated. (9). Fetches (15). Green Sun's Zeniths (18). Empath (19). Almost ONE-THIRD of the entire deck specifically thins out the deck in addition to doing other things that we want.

3B. Much of the early, early development of (my versions of) Nic Fit was done on Cockatrice. Now, on Cockatrice, you actually see how many cards are in your deck. Usually, by about turn 3 or so, Nic Fit had fewer cards left in deck than my (blue deck) opponents. I interpret that as meaning that somewhere in there is a grey zone where that 61st card magically turns into +1 card advantage/+1 tempo. Sure, if you don't have that 61st card, then theoretically you'd be more likely to draw any of the 45-odd cards remaining, but having an extra option and +1 card is worth playing on a closer-to-even-playing-field-to-my-opponent's-number-of-cards-left, IMO.

4. The one spot where I will agree that the 61st card can cause issues is in your opening hand. Look at my last event, at Jupiter. I was playing Scapewish. Let's say for the sake of argument that the slot that Terastodon occupied was the 61st-slot. I had that damn Terastodon in my opening hand at least 5-6 times over the course of the event. A couple of those, if he had been any other card in my deck, I might not have had to mulligan.

5. The final point I will note here is that, in my opinion, it's a trade-off. You're trading the chance of worse opening hands for a situationally amazing card. The Diabolic Intent/slot in Rector is -probably- the 61st card. If I had to cut ANYTHING to get it to 60 flat, it would be Intent. But, anyone who's played with Intent knows the hands you get sometimes. You know, the one where you lead with Explorer and then Intent on turn 2, immune to Daze or Spell Pierce? Those hands? Or, sometimes, when you draw it mid-game and fire off a Rector with it. Or just sacrifice anything to grab the best card in your deck, and win from there? I'm not saying that the math is on my side. In fact, it very likely isn't. But I'll take faith over math any day of the week -- it's just who I am. I believe that the 61st card is worth the trade-off, and my belief makes it so. Your mileage, most certainly, will vary.

5A. Quick addendum: Scapewish almost certainly could go down to 60 cards. That is one point I will concede. The opening hands matter a lot more in Scapewish, and Scapewish's "gimmick" (Burning Wish) doesn't suck cards from the deck, unlike Rector. If Rector stumbles a little early, it's fine -- it can make it up easily later. Scapewish....not so much. There are currently 3 slots available in Scapewish for tweaking (the Stronghold, which has continued to disappoint; and the pair of Olivias/2nd Sakura+4th Top). The Stronghold slot, let's say, could be the "61st", and just removed, while the 2x slot could be, well, anything. Right now, Abrupt Decays are probably optimal, honestly. I really, really want Olivia to work -- she seems like she should be Scapewish's Baneslayer, but I dunno. I haven't been hearing favorable reports, and I'm less than inclined to invest the 15/each in a theory. Once they rotate out of standard I'll probably give them a more aggressive testing if we still haven't gotten anything better, which, I say again, considering that the Gruul clan is coming in about a month, seems unlikely.

Actually, I'm going to update the Scapewish link in my sig to that end. -2 Olivia/-1 Sakura/-1 Top, +2 Abrupt Decay **; -1 Volrath's (no replacement).

-Edit-

Speaking of opening hands, Erick, I'm terrified of your mana base without the Stomping Grounds. You only have 10 green sources -- you cut two green-producing lands for a R/B land and a basic Mountain. Considering the whole lack of fetchlands thing, I'm not sure I'd trust that to hold up long-term....over the course of an SCG or a GP, for example. I feel like you're going to have to mull too many otherwise good hands because of not having those two extra green sources.

[lambert101]

I have been meddling with the mana base for the past week. I am considering the following:
3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Tagia
4 Badlands
4 Mountains
2 Swamp
2 Valakut (Been calling this Mt. Doom)
1 Phrexian Tower

I have 11 green sources. I do not know if that is too few?

Edit: people need to get over the idea of running 61 cards. I agree with Ariahnod about 61 feeling right. I have no idea why but it does. End rage post.

[Kich867]

Just for the sake of clarity, GSZ doesn't thin the deck and Diabolic Intent is not immune to daze or pierce, the opponent just counters in response to the explorer trigger.

The point of my post wasn't to really speak towards one side or the other, it was just pointing a fun fact. Most legacy players openly criticize people who say that fetches thin the deck but abhor the idea of running a 61st card, when one actually impacts your consistency much higher than the other.

I would probably cut Diabolic Intent from the list, the deck is already rife with tutor effects and like you said, deck thinning, which makes top pretty good. The enchantment package all makes sense, but the intent doesn't really seem that great. Or if you dropped something else for a second one, that wouldn't be bad.

[Koby]

I don't recommend talking about the benefits of "deck thinning" when it comes to removal of one card at a time from a deck throughout several turns. It really takes multiple turns to realize a benefit, and that usually doesn't exceed 2-4% over the course of a game. Veteran Explorer might have the best argument for that as he pulls 2 cards out a time - two that you don't want to be drawing anyway; and even there it doesn't provide much improvement on your lands-to-spells ratio over a single iteration. Playing more lands hurts that benefit as well.

Example: Assume it's turn 2, you've drawn 2 lands and played them and have sacrificed Veteran Explorer.
Case 1: removing two lands from a deck with 20 lands would result in a deck that is now 16 / 50 = 32% chance to draw a land. Prior to that, 18 / 52 = 34.6%
Case 2: removing two lands from a deck with 23 lands would result in a deck that is now 19 / 50 = 38% chance to draw a land. Prior to that, 21 / 52 = 40.4%

The less land you play, the larger the effect apparent. Generally, if you're playing less land you need less land to operate, so it's a wash. (Imagine RUG Delver)

Fetchlands as "deck thinning" is misguided. Their use should only be stability for the mana base, and color fixing.

GSZ doesn't thin the deck either. It's a tutor. Having the flexibility from running situational cards does provide sufficient justification for running a 61st card in the deck. However, carefully consider if that 61st card is worth the trouble of messing up the best possible chance to draw your best cards.

Example: I've played Maze of Ith in Maverick as the 61st card with the reasoning that it's easily tutorable and provides a good function in the maindeck where it would otherwise be in the sideboard.

[Arianrhod]

Just for the sake of clarity, GSZ doesn't thin the deck and Diabolic Intent is not immune to daze or pierce, the opponent just counters in response to the explorer trigger.

The point of my post wasn't to really speak towards one side or the other, it was just pointing a fun fact. Most legacy players openly criticize people who say that fetches thin the deck but abhor the idea of running a 61st card, when one actually impacts your consistency much higher than the other.

I would probably cut Diabolic Intent from the list, the deck is already rife with tutor effects and like you said, deck thinning, which makes top pretty good. The enchantment package all makes sense, but the intent doesn't really seem that great. Or if you dropped something else for a second one, that wouldn't be bad.

Most people aren't smart enough to counter in response to the Explorer trigger, but point granted.

Intent seems like a card that needs to be built around more than Rector is doing. I'm going to wait and see what all toys Gatecrash brings before replacing it, but I wouldn't criticize anyone who cuts Intent now. If you want to build around it more, like Viridia with his Omniscience version, then sure -- it's fine. But in my-style of Rector, I think it's safe to say that it's the weakest link, by far. I might try to test that as the Recycle, and keep the Arena. Not sure.

Also, Tingxuan on eBay has a Korean Recycle up for 10 bucks shipped, if anyone's looking. I picked up one copy from him just now, but he has another remaining.

[Qweerios]

Koby answered for me in a clearer fashion here I believe. I have been against the 61st card and against the idea of using fetches as deck thinning from the begining too as Kich pointed out.

I think that the simplest way to distinguish the two arguments even though they are both based on odds is to state that the 61st card is merely a matter of opportunity cost while deck thinning via fetch lands is a matter of scale. You will play fetch lands for color availlability and the shuffle effect regardless, you simply don't play them for deck thinning as a primary argument because it has such little impact versus its other inherent abilities. However, the 61st card is a tradeoff between what the worst card in your deck brings you and how it combines with the drawbacks of playing 61 cards.

As Arianrhod put it, if his Terrastodon was his 61st card (which makes a lot of sense), it would have significant impacts on starting hands, midgame draws, lategame card availlability, and probably a myriad of other things. The fact that it is the 61st card however, is another argument against playing that card as it is now effectively draining a little bit of the efficiency of all of the other cards in your deck so it better pull it's weight, big time...

@Slikwilly,

I think you could safely cut 1-2 Sakura, Baneslayer, Elspeth, Intent, and Call. I would also suggest the following changes:

-1 Intent for +1 GSZ. Especialy if you choose to sport a single Rusalka and Fierce Empath, GSZ is arguably the best card in your list;

-1 Call for +1 Top. As far as card quality and card selection goes, Top has much better synergy with the rest of the deck. It also lasts troughout the game;

-1 Sakura for +1 Ooze. Honestly, I shouldn't have to explain that one;

-1 Baneslayer as the 61st card. This card only has synergy with Moat. It is purely vanilla and doesn't become any better with GSZ, Fierce Empath, Recurring Nightmare, etc... it is only there to be randomly good at random times. It might hose RUG G1 but your deck will still function as good if not better without it;

Elspeth falls within the same category of cards as Baneslayer except that it has more synergy with the rest of the deck (Deed, Moat, harder to remove). It is a fine card for this deck but I would consider a higher impact card like Teeg or Grave Titan before.

[moseby]

Is Recycle that much better then Chains of Mephistopheles?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Arianrhod: Thanks for reminding me that I neglected to mention the other difference between fetches (and explorer) and the 61st card.

Fetches and Explorer can be stifled. Explorer itself can be StP'd. The 61st card and its effects on consistency, however, are impossible to negate after deck construction and during a match from either side.

[Arianrhod]

@Slikwilly,

I think you could safely cut 1-2 Sakura, Baneslayer, Elspeth, Intent, and Call. I would also suggest the following changes:

-1 Intent for +1 GSZ. Especialy if you choose to sport a single Rusalka and Fierce Empath, GSZ is arguably the best card in your list;

-1 Call for +1 Top. As far as card quality and card selection goes, Top has much better synergy with the rest of the deck. It also lasts troughout the game;

-1 Sakura for +1 Ooze. Honestly, I shouldn't have to explain that one;

-1 Baneslayer as the 61st card. This card only has synergy with Moat. It is purely vanilla and doesn't become any better with GSZ, Fierce Empath, Recurring Nightmare, etc... it is only there to be randomly good at random times. It might hose RUG G1 but your deck will still function as good if not better without it;

Elspeth falls within the same category of cards as Baneslayer except that it has more synergy with the rest of the deck (Deed, Moat, harder to remove). It is a fine card for this deck but I would consider a higher impact card like Teeg or Grave Titan before.

Surprisingly, I actually find myself largely agreeing with Qweerios here. 3 Tops is industry standard for Nic Fit. Baneslayer as a 1-of is horrible. I'm guessing that you use the Call as a "2nd Baneslayer" since it's also a +1 copy of anything in your deck, but I'd rather have the extra threat. Like, Baneslayer as a 2-of is perfectly fine. As a 1-of, I wouldn't touch her, primarily since she isn't tutorable. You want her showing up to win games on her own; you don't want to tutor for her to do so. I like the 2nd Elder over the Ooze for reasons I've stated a dozen times if I've stated them once. 4th Green Sun is something I'm strongly considering for that Diabolic Intent slot myself (the problem being that I want both Recycle and Arena). I just wish there was a better selection of green hate bears to tutor up, besides Teeg. I still say that Nether Void and Cranial Extraction effects are more powerful hate than Teeg is, and I wouldn't run them together for obvious reasons. Elspeth is another card like Baneslayer -- you want 2 copies or 0. A 1-of seems pretty bad.

[Arianrhod]

Is Recycle that much better then Chains of Mephistopheles?

They fulfill two different roles.

Note. This is probably going to go into long-post mode. You've been warned.

First of all, as stated, Recycle and Chains do different things. Chains is primarily to hate your opponent. Recycle is to make yourself stronger. Also, Chains maindeck is a horrible idea, because it makes Arena bad, Top bad/less good, AND there's the biggest single problem with Chains: you have to have it EARLY for it to be good. IMO, the best place for Chains is in some kind of Enlightened Tutor control deck, where you can slam it on turn two and stare ferociously at your opponent. If you drop Chains on turn 5, it's very lackluster.

Now, fun time. *Cracks knuckles*

Chains has a strong dissynergy with Nic Fit. I'm also going to return to everyone's favorite punching-whore, as well: Liliana of the Veil.

Sidenote: I think is probably pretty close to the heart of Qweerios' and my perpetual disagreements. Obviously, no offense intended in anything I say. *Respect fist-pump.

I personally view Nic Fit as, and prefer to play Nic Fit as, a resource hog. It's Scrooge McDuck. Its purpose in life is to accrue resources, then use its superior resources to wear an opponent down until they eventually succumb. I would call this a positivistic strategy. It's attempting to advance its gameplan.

Chains of Mephistopheles and Liliana of Veil, in particular, emphasize and supplement what I will call negativistic strategies. A -prime- example of a negativistic strategy is Stax(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Sorry, having fun). 43lands is another classic example. These decks are resource deprivation decks. They thrive based on their ability to shut down their opponents' resource generation, be it mana available, cards in hand, board presence, and so on. Pox is probably the single best example of this type of deck -- and it should be no surprise that monoblack Pox is the one deck where Chains has seen serious play, and as one of the primary Liliana of the Veil decks (though BUG and Junk are supplanting it now in that regard).

Compare (my Rector) Nic Fit and Junk.

Nic Fit runs 0 Wastelands, and 0 Knights of the Reliquary to tutor for said Wastelands. We run 4 maindeck discard, they run 6+. They run 6-8 spot removal maindeck, we run 0. We run 0 Liliana of the Veil. They run 2-4. Instead of spot removal, more discard, and Lilianas, we run things like Veteran Explorer, Sakura-Tribe, Rectors, sweepers. Generally speaking, from a philosophical point of view, the two decks are diametrically opposed -- even as Nic Fit and RUG are. One wants to marshal its resources, the other wants to deprive their opponent of those same resources. This is why I hate Liliana of the Veil in Nic Fit, and one of the main reasons I have come to hate Chains as well. For how I play the deck, and how I see the deck, the two plans aren't compatible aside from various sideboard options (Cranial deprives them of specific resources in deck, Nether Void is arguably the single greatest mana deprivation card in existence, and so on).

You see, Nic Fit has a strange quality to it. ALLLLLL Nic Fit is built around 4x Explorer + 4x Cabal Therapy. The interaction between these two cards is a sort of gateway. Let's say it's a spacegate -- think Babylon 5 (or insert arbitrary scifi here). You can use this technology in two ways: you can use it for growth, or you can use it for warfare. If you want to use it for growth, you want backup ramp engines, sweepers, more late-game bombs, more engines. If you want to use it for warfare, you want more disruption. You're taxing your economy to do so, but you don't care -- you're salting their earth and burning their bones. I believe that whichever way you personally choose to use the spacegate, to use the Explorer/Therapy interaction, is up to you, and is determined by how you prefer to play games (not just magic). In every RTS I've ever played, I've primarily been a boomer. I was the jackass in Age of Mythology who fast Mythic'd with Isis and drowned you in Elephants. I was actually the guy who invented and popularized the Vinci boom in Rise of Legends.

And you know what? I've always disliked Warcraft and Starcraft as strategy games.

They focus more on the warfare and less on the economy. It's all in the micro, not the macro. I'm a macro specialist. So I naturally prefer to boost my own gameplan rather than impede my opponents'. I'd rather be defending myself and building up 100 civilians while my opponent sits on 25 and is trying in vain to break my defense. At the core, that's my philosophy in Magic, as well.

So yeah. I don't exactly know where that came from, but I'm a writer, and I know a writer's sudden urges to write.

So there's that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

As someone who runs JMS and LotV, I should mention that at some point, Nic Fit does become a negativistic deck. Otherwise, we wouldn't run Deed, Pulse, Therapy, Decay, etc.

I'm not disagreeing that, on the whole, Nic Fit is a positivistic deck. But not only do we need to take a negativistic approach in order to buy time and resources to build up to that point, after we have achieved that point, we have little to gain from a positivistic approach and much to gain from denying our opponent resources and time to turn the game in their favor.

Personally, I'm in favor of Lili as a 1-of, as it helps mitigate the chance to lose against combo and control as her +1 arguably hurts them more than it hurts us. Chains . . . I honestly don't like Chains that much, either for a negativistic or a positivistic approach.

[Kich867]

Koby answered for me in a clearer fashion here I believe. I have been against the 61st card and against the idea of using fetches as deck thinning from the begining too as Kich pointed out.

This feels like a bit of a whoosh. My point was that...not necessarily being "against" either, but that if you acknowledge one as being strictly bad (61st card) and one as being inconsequential (fetches and deck thinning), it doesn't make sense since the latter is actually more impactful than the former.

It wasn't particularly targeted towards anyone in specific, just social commentary.

To be more on point, I actually happen to own all the duals / fetches to make GBW nic fit work, is the rector package you feel required? Or can the deck simply be similar to the GB version, but with better removal (Swords), GSZ targets (Sigarda), and good white stuff (Sun Titan)?

[slikwilly]

Surprisingly, I actually find myself largely agreeing with Qweerios here. 3 Tops is industry standard for Nic Fit. Baneslayer as a 1-of is horrible. I'm guessing that you use the Call as a "2nd Baneslayer" since it's also a +1 copy of anything in your deck, but I'd rather have the extra threat. Like, Baneslayer as a 2-of is perfectly fine. As a 1-of, I wouldn't touch her, primarily since she isn't tutorable. You want her showing up to win games on her own; you don't want to tutor for her to do so. I like the 2nd Elder over the Ooze for reasons I've stated a dozen times if I've stated them once. 4th Green Sun is something I'm strongly considering for that Diabolic Intent slot myself (the problem being that I want both Recycle and Arena). I just wish there was a better selection of green hate bears to tutor up, besides Teeg. I still say that Nether Void and Cranial Extraction effects are more powerful hate than Teeg is, and I wouldn't run them together for obvious reasons. Elspeth is another card like Baneslayer -- you want 2 copies or 0. A 1-of seems pretty bad.

You are correct on the Call as a virtual '2nd Baneslayer' but it's also a 4th Rector. Or any other creature. (I have been dreaming for months now of a Not-So-Fierce Empath that tutors up a 5-drop specifically for Baneslayer. Someday...) I can see dropping Baneslayer for a GSZ-able flier, but Sigarda is leagues better than every other green flier and she's only good as a one-of.

As long as I'm playing Rector I think I'm also going to be playing Intent. Intent -> Rector -> Moat -> Elspeth is about as solid as it gets.

Elspeth is the most cuttable in my estimation, but I can't see cutting Moat and if I've got Moat I want Elspeth. Especially if I drop that Baneslayer.

Agreed on the 3rd SDT, but acquiring it has never been a very high priority for me. I've thought about Enlightened Tutor as a 'virtual' SDT that also goes well with all the enchantments in the deck. But since it's top of library instead of in-hand I've not pulled the trigger yet. Given the splash hate Deathrite Shaman does to Rector, this might not be such a bad move though since you still get access to enchantments w/o the Rector.

I'm generally happy with my list as is. The fixes suggested are well and good and all, but I don't think they address what needs to be addressed. This list already handles 'fair' decks just fine. How about some changes that don't completely wreck those matchups but improve the matchup against combo or other 'unfair' decks?


This feels like a bit of a whoosh. My point was that...not necessarily being "against" either, but that if you acknowledge one as being strictly bad (61st card) and one as being inconsequential (fetches and deck thinning), it doesn't make sense since the latter is actually more impactful than the former.

It wasn't particularly targeted towards anyone in specific, just social commentary.

To be more on point, I actually happen to own all the duals / fetches to make GBW nic fit work, is the rector package you feel required? Or can the deck simply be similar to the GB version, but with better removal (Swords), GSZ targets (Sigarda), and good white stuff (Sun Titan)?

RE: fetches. There are two big issues with fetches as thinning: 1) that point of life matters a lot more than the minute improvement in your draw percentages, 2) you're giving away shuffles that improve your Top far more the deck thinning.

RE: GBW. I like Rector Fit because it is the kind of deck I want to play. It's not an autopilot deck by any stretch. I'm sure it can be build w/o the Rector package I'm just not sure it's worth the 3rd color for that. Sigarda is awesome, but GB is not short of things that can bash people.

[Qweerios]

@Kich,

This has been my current dilemma. I am convinced that Rector is not he deciding factor in choosing GBW. I find Jarad's Order to be just as good if not better than Rector because it will grant you value with so much less preparation. As I was looking through the possible GBW options for a GSZ-based deck, I have also come to question the necessity of a recursion engine. Between Genesis, Volrath, and Nightmare, I don't think any of them are needed for this deck to be sucessful if it is able to have enough early disruption or generate enough card advantage. Cards like Eternal Witness, Deed, Fierce Empath, Grave Titan, Sun Titan, Prime Titan, and the sheer fact that we have larger creatures than most decks is slowly taking me away from recursion engines. I think that overall a single Volrath Stronghold should be enough. Playing white as a splash color gives me access to all these beautiful creatures but when I choose to go the Rector or Jarad route, I suddenly lose to GY hate (Deathrite Shaman ARRHHHHH).

[Greenpoe]

Playing white as a splash color gives me access to all these beautiful creatures but when I choose to go the Rector or Jarad route, I suddenly lose to GY hate (Deathrite Shaman ARRHHHHH).

To be fair, there are other combo-y finishes for the deck, like Congregation at Dawn, Weird Harvest and Tooth and Nail. I'm not too familiar with the combos that these cards can create, but I can think of a few simple ones like Norwood Priestess, Shifty Doppelganger, Elvish Piper, Braids, Conjurer Adept + Emrakul or Blightsteel. Obviously slower & more vunerable, but dodges GY hate. Also, has anyone considered Crater Hellion in Scapewish? It may be too slow, but could have potential as a Wrath on a stick.

[Siiig]

@Siiig,

3rd Huntmaster, really? How many games have you won only because you managed to resolve 3 and how many games have you lost because your deck couldn't resolve more than 2? My guess is that only 1 side of this equation has been observed, the other has been ignored. Also, 3rd Decay, 2nd Sakura, 2nd Thragtusk, and 24th land are all numbers you can safely reconsider without dimming the redundancy of your 4 GSZ, 4 Therapies, 4 Explorers, and 4 Burning Wishes.


I'm in the same boat as Arianrhod in saying that I'm far from a statistician.

To answer your comment, I don't think there are ever games where SEEING a hunt master, or looking down at 5 mana with a GSZ and knowing he's there has been a bad thing. That being said, I don't personally run 3 huntys, I actually run a singleton Ooze--but this slot gets changed on a... game(ly?) basis.

That's... well... that's pretty much it. Having a card in my deck that I can tutor for but never see feels awesome to me, and I don't feel the deck to be impacted significantly...but I've also only been playing this deck for about 3 weeks haha.

[Qweerios]

Isn't Wall of Blossoms straight up better than Sakura-Tribe Elder?

What do you guys think of Blitz Hellion as a GSZ-able answer to Planeswalkers for Scapewish?

[Viridia]

Isn't Wall of Blossoms straight up better than Sakura-Tribe Elder?

What do you guys think of Blitz Hellion as a GSZ-able answer to Planeswalkers for Scapewish?

Wall of Blossoms and Sakura have a completely different role in the deck?

Blitz Hellion is pretty narrow, but if you really want a decent answer to Planeswalkers i suppose it's a good card :)

[nottz]

Probably the worst idea ever but what about Stensia Bloodhall to get people from 20 to 18 with Scapewish if they haven't cracked enough fetches. Just an idea because the stronghold has been bad.

[Fropper]

The problem here is that all lands enter tapped when brought into play via scapeshift, you would need another turn to activate it. Barbarian Ring would be better (there should always be 7 cards in the graveyard after scapeshifting) as it can be tapped for red and can shoot gaddok teeg if needed.

[Zirath]

Wall of Blossoms and Sakura have a completely different role in the deck?

Blitz Hellion is pretty narrow, but if you really want a decent answer to Planeswalkers i suppose it's a good card :)

Isn't this fundamentally the same as say Groundbreaker or Timbermare in practice?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I have discovered something that this archetype will have trouble beating, regardless of the deck it faces.

An old relic called the mana sink has given me more trouble than id like to admit when playing against my friend's rebels (casual of course). It also coincides with our trouble against Miracles.

Mirror Entity, Entreat the Angels, Bonfire of the Damned, Chalice of the Void, etc. All get better with more mana while staying effective with little mana.

Having said that, I feel as though Miracles is our single worst fair matchup for this reason alone, and a metagame consisting mostly of other fair matchups will be the prime metagame for Nic Fit and variants.

[Tao]

I had time to play again so I participated in the Magic League Legacy Invitational. Here is my report:


// Lands
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [M13] Thragtusk
3 [P12] Baleful Strix
1 [WWK] Terastodon
2 [CMD] Eternal Witness
1 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
1 [EX] Spike Weaver

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 [M11] Negate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague


card choices:

2 Recurring Nightmare: During testing Nightmare had been insanely good after the addition of Thragtusk. DR Shaman was not a big problem because of all the removal in the deck. I wanted to draw it a bit more regularly so I went up to two.

3 Baleful Strix: Not bad, not impressive, has some synergy. I haven't fully made up my mind yet.

1 Terastodon: 8 (9 with GSZ) mana is a lot but it is only meant for the very late game and there is no better card for that. You have enough ways to deal with creatures in the lategame and Terastodon kills the other stuff including Planeswalkers, Equipment and Lands. Alternatively you can just blow up your own lands and get four creatures with 18 power and 18 toughness which is an overwhelming amount.

1 Sylvan Ranger over 1 Sakura Tribe Elder: I was happy with that change. It happens far more often that I want to have an EtB effect so I can use it with Therapy (or get a bit value with Nightmare) than that the ramp matters. Having a sac outlet against Dredge would be nice, but I don't expect many people to play Dredge in the current Deathrite Shaman Meta.

1 Spike Weaver: I felt a bit weak against swarm strategies so I added it. It also has great synergy with Jace TMS (fogging while drawing, then bounce reset if still necessary) and the two Recurring Nightmares.


Trial: Before you can play in the master you have to get an Invitation for it by top4ing a Trial. I played a Trial before but the list for it had been completely unrefined. After a bit more random MWS testing I came up with above list. So when I saw that the last Trial was starting I gave it a shot.


Trial

Round 1: opponent no shows


Round 2:
Steveman with his own Staxx variant:

G1
I Therapy him and see 2 Elspeths and an Oblivion Ring. I flashback Therapy on Elspeth and he naturally rips a third one. Next turn he draws Humility which gives me a rough time. He also plays an Ensnaring Bridge which creates interesting interactions later. I GSZ for Spike Weaver because he enters the battlefield with 3 Counters anyway so he can't attack me without chump attacking into the Weaver (because of his own E Bridge he can't jump the tokens with Elspeth). I get Jace going but he ticks his Elspeth up and ultimate would mean gg. Barely in time I manage to reset the board with Deed and do damage to Elspeth. The game goes on a bit, I take out this Elspeth and then the fourth Elspeth too and another Humility. Terastadon then cleans up.

SB:
- 2 Damnation
- 1 Recurring Nightmare
- 1 Thragtusk
+ 2 Krosan Grip
+ 2 Negate

G2
He goes Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, Crucible and then taps 4 Mana during his next turn. But fortunately it was only a Moat that I didn't care about and not Elspeth again. He has nothing of relevance, I Jace and Deed and win.

2-0
1-0


R3: XJudicatorX with UW Rest in Peace

G1
I get a Deed out that kills Counterbalance and RiP and win easily because after playing first, E Tutoring and getting two for oned with Deed and Therapy he just does not have enough cards left. Terastodon ends the game as an EtB effect.

SB
- 4 Therapy, - 1 Eternal Witness, - 2 Recurrring Nightmare, - 3 Veteran Explorer, - 2 Damnation, - 1 Spike Weaver
+ 4 Thoughtseize, + 2 Extirpate, + 2 Krosan Grip, + 2 Negate, + 3 Carpet of Flowers

G2
I side out Damnations and everything except one Witness that is bad against his 4 RiP (+ Enlightened Tutor). For the first time ever I go to 0 Veteran Explorer but without Therapies I can't sacrifice them. I play Thoughtseize + Extirpate on RiP on turn 2 and when I see his deck he only has Helm hardcast modus, 1 Luminarch Ascension and 1 Jace left to win. I felt overconfident and Negated an irrelevant Helm and punted when I gave him back a Sensei's Top that I wanted to steal from the top of his deck with an Extirpate on Counterbalance. Because of that I then also lose both Thragtusks to Porphyry Nodes + Humility and my only Witness was also already gone.
But I topdeck a Jace as a reward for my two bad plays so I win.

4-0
2-0

R4: CalebD with 4C Delver/DR Shaman

I keep 2 G/B Lands, Therapy, Abrupt Decay, Deed, Brainstorm and Jace. Imo a clear keep. He forces an Explorer and plays Jace (off 4 Lands) before I find blue Mana. He fateseals away all Lands and I scoop when Jace has enough counters for his Ultimate.

+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
- 1 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Recurring Nightmare
- 1 Spike Weaver

G2 he actively searches for one of his two Jaces with Ponder/Brainstorm because they are his only realistic win option. He finds one, but this time I have no spells instead of no Mana. He handles two Thragtusks with bounce + Discard + trade with Mongoose and wins one mindgame with Fateseal vs. Fetchland. Overall I had four or five unfatesealed draws, one was a Witness that he forced and the others were Mana, Removal and finally the lone Recurring Nightmare without a creature. Jace hits 13 and I scoop.

4-2
2-1

Getting to the finals was enough to qualify me for the master.


Master


R1: Milano Lawyer with RUG Delver

G1
I keep 1 Forest, 2 Therapy, Sylvan Ranger, Explorer and a Jace.A risky hand but clearly no mulligan. Any land is insane and as a backup plan I have Explorer if he attacks on the ground. Explorer resolves, I draw an Island, Sylvan Ranger resolves and he gets annihilated by double Explorer + double Therapy into Jace + Deed. Sometimes it is fun playing unfair.

- 1 Recurring Nightmare
- 1 Terastadon
- 1 Cabal Therapy
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers

G2
I Mulligan an otherwise great 1 Island + Carpet of Flowers into a mediocre 6, but topdeck Explorer which is good. He flips a T1 Delver which I Abrupt Decay. I have enough Lands for the moment and bait his Stifle with Explorer/Tower so that my Deed can kill another Delver (I have another Deed in hand). He plays Goyf + Delver and I kill both, but have to take 8 from them because I am on 4 lands. I draw the third Deed, he Brainstorms and Bolts me to 6 life and plays a Goyf. I play Jace off a Carpet of Flowers and bounce his Goyf. He Snapcaster/Bolts Jace dead. I topdeck Therapy in the last turn it matters and get the Goyf out of his hand. I take one hit from Snapcaster, then I have to kill Carpet + Snap to stay on 4 not get into Bolt range.
I have another Carpet and otherwise we both play from the top of our decks. Carpet is freaking insane this game. In the meanwhile he had wasted me down to two lands but I can still play everything. He plays a fourth Island and wants to take it back immediately but I don't let him. Usually I don't play so strict but the game felt very tight and the tournament is called a master after all. He didn't complain at all and it was his only misplay during our match.
I kill some more of his stuff, get Jace online and once Thragtusk hits the board my opponent scoops. It was quite close because of good draws on both sides.

2-0, 1-0 (6-2, 3-1)


R2 Belcher

G1
I win the only way you can win G1, by blocking the Empty the Warrens tokens with an Explorer and nuking his board with a Deed.

- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Recurring Nightmare
- 2 Damnation
- 1 Terastodon
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Forest
- 1 Baleful Strix
- 1 Green Suns Zenith
+ 4 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Extirpate
+ 2 Negate
+ 2 Krosan Grip
+ 2 Engineered Plague

G2
I keep Explorer + Therapy + Thoughtseize and perfect Mana but he has T1 14 Tokens, I find no Deed or Plague in the top two cards of my library.

G3
On the play I keep Tropical, Brainstorm, Deed and Thoughtseize, but no black mana. If he doesn't have it turn 1 I can find black Mana for my Discard and if he only has Emtpy the Warrens I can repeat G1. He kills me T1 with Belcher. Fun.

1-2, 1-1 (7-4, 3-2)


R3 checoso with Merfolk

G1
I mulligan a terrible 1-lander into a bad 1-lander (1 Island with 2 Strix and a bunch of green stuff). I keep because I think drawing black or green mana and winning from there is more likely than winning with 5. He plays Island Vial, Wasteland, I dont draw land. He has Cursecatcher and double Master. The game ends before i find any land.

- 1 Therapy
- 1 Terastodon
- 1 Baleful Stix
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers

G2
I survive the early aggression with a Deed while he draws cards with Standstill. But then I manage to get Spike Weaver + Jace going, and even though I draw a bunch of lands there was still enough gas in all these Jace activations to win handily.

G3
I keep Island, Underground Sea, Phyrexian Tower + Strix and Explorer and other good stuff. I draw a Fetch for green Mana the second turn. He has Vial Wasteland but no second land. A few turns later I make a blunder when he attacks with a Merrow Reejerey, a Silvergill Adept and a fresh played Master. I declare blockers even though I obviously cant block with Islands in play. I am not used to play Nic Fit and having to watch out for that. He is nicer than me in my last match and lets me undo and we go back to the declare attackers step and I abrupt Decay his Master. Thragtusk blocks a 2/2 Reejerey and Sylvan Ranger trades with Silvergill Adept. He redraws a few cards with Standstill but can't recover from that blowout.

2-1, 2-1 (9-5, 4-2)


R4 bugaga with GBu Aggro

G1
I keep 2 land explorer therapy. I dont t1 explorer because I want to Explorer/Therapy on turn 2. But he thoughtseizes me and takes Expolorer, fml. I therapy on Hymn, he has Confidant online. He then decays my deed. Gets Jace and Liliana online. I try to set up Nightmare which gives me a small chance but he draws another Decay with Confidant.

No SBing

G2
After some early game exchanges I try to set up Recurring Nightmare with Witness but he has Decay in hand so I keep the Nightmare in hand and not in play. He draws thougthseize and I have to discard it. We both have nothing. I draw GSZ, decide for Witness on Nightmare instead of Thragtusk but he draws his second Decay. The next turn he draws Jace. Had I gone for Tusk this would not have been a problem. I draw two more lands. After 2 acitvations i draw my own jace. He has no additional planeswalkers, only Goyf + Shaman, I topdeck Witness for Deed. Back into topdeck mode. Witness beats him to one, but he finds Decay. I topdeck GSZ for Terastodon, which is more than enough.

G3
He mulls to 5. I keep 2 Lands, GSZ. He starts with DR Shaman into Confidant. Strong but he has no Thoughtseize for my Deed so I nuke his board and Therapy his hand. He draws nothing and loses to a random dork. Barely avoided KO in G2.

2-1 3-1 (11-6, 5-2)


R5 Haldir with Goblins

G1
I win die roll, start with GSZ into Explorer vs Lackey. Perfect hand. Damnation, Jace, Witness, Therapy, everything. He makes some Matron/Ringleader things but it just didn't matter.

+ 2 Plague
- 1 Terastodon
- 1 Baleful Strix

G2
I die with a pretty good hand. I have no chance to cast my Plague because he has a Chieftain in play. He was simply to explosive.

G3
We both Mull but it becomes a great game with good draws on both sides. This time I get Plague into play but he again has Chieftain ot negate the effect. I play solid but then accidently make a really great play: I Therapy him and he knows I know he has Gempalm Incinerator. So in response he tries to kill my Spike Weaver. In responde to that I Decay his Relic of Progenitus so I can Recurring Nightmare the Weaver back into play. I only saw it in the last moment but it totally looked like I had the whole 8-mana turn planned out for that moment and I pass the turn with exactly one mana up for the Fog. The game ends shortly after because this had set up Jace+Weaver and I find the second Plague to which he is cold.

2-1, 4-1 (13-7, 6-2)


R6 vs pg8 with UWB Stoneblade

G1
We bot Mulligan to 6 and trade bad draws. I have 4 Mana and Jace but no second blue. He gets out of it first with SFM into Jace. He makes a couple of punts that allow me to comeback into the game. He stops me from getting Terastodon into play twice with Discard. I evetually Witness back the Terastodon and blow up a Jitte and a Batterskull with it because he was tapped out despite knowing what would come. He was very frustrated with his play.

- 2 Explorer
- 2 Damnation
- 1 GSZ
- 1 ???
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Thoughtseize

G2
He has no chance to redeem himself because I have a beast draw. Double Thoughtseize into Therapy + Explorer into Jace into everything vs Mana Flood on his side.

2-0, 5-1 (15-7, 7-2)

RO8
G1
He keeps me on one Forest forever but I have Explorer in play. I finally get it going and think I can't lose. But he has 2 Forces and double Daze for my big spells while he picks at me with a Mongoose. I think I make a mistake when I run with a GSZ on 5 with 6 Mana into a Spell pierce. With his last hand card, a Stifle on a Fetchland, he keeps me from casting Witness and kills me exactly with a Goose.

- 3 Cabal Therapy
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers

G2 is won through Nightmare + Thragtusk but I cause an MWS error. In the same second that I put my Jace in the yard he tapped two lands and claimed he also targeted my Jace. It literrally happened at the same time. My opponent either has the hand speed of a Korean Starcraft Progamer or he made the thing up. But in the end it was my fault and I have no proof so I go with the progamer theory. Either way, it sucks to lose a won game like that.

1-1, 5-1 (16-8, 7-2)

RO4 would have been Maverick which I think is a positive matchup for this list so I think I could have made it to the final. Oh well.


The list felt really good. I don't think I would change a card. Though I randomly did not draw more than 4-5 Baleful Strixes during the entire tournament so I have no idea how good they actually are. For Terastodon I knew it was the card I wanted to have in the deck to finish games but it performed even better than I expected.
Spike Feeder was good. It won me two games against the Tribal decks that I would have lost if it wasn't in the deck.

[Viridia]

G2 is won through Nightmare + Thragtusk but I cause an MWS error. In the same second that I put my Jace in the yard he tapped two lands and claimed he also targeted my Jace. It literrally happened at the same time. My opponent either has the hand speed of a Korean Starcraft Progamer or he made the thing up. But in the end it was my fault and I have no proof so I go with the progamer theory. Either way, it sucks to lose a won game like that.


What exactly happened here?

Nice report! I like your list aswel.
Strix's have been performing great for me in the past, just try testing with them a bit more to see if you like them :)

[Tao]

MWS sometimes causes errors when both player try to click/move an object at the same time and I tried to move my Jace when I was not supposed to. I have some doubt that it really caused an error on his side (because he tapped his lands that were far away from my Jace at the same time) but I have no prove and it could also have been a lag at a bad time. It just felt very odd.
Either way it was my mistake, and I got punished. But this is one of the reasons why Modo and RL tournaments are always better than Magic League.

For Baleful Strix: Good to hear. I always liked Wall of Blossoms in this type of deck and one that can trade with things and ping Planeswalkers can't be too bad.

[TerribleTim68]

Could use a little inpout on a couple changes I'm considering to my list (GBw Rector). I just got a Primeval Titan and was considering running him with Treetop Villages. Is it a waste of time or does it mess up the mana base too much? Also, I have a playset of Abrupt Decays. So I'm gonna try to squeeze 2 or 3 of those in too, probably for a couple Vindicates or something. I also got 3 Deathrite Shamans, are they worth running a couple since I can Green Sun's Zenith into them or are they just too slow and not synergistic with Pernicious Deed?

Thanks guys. And Happy New Year!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ PrimeTime: I'm a fan of him, but not of Treetop. I'm actually using Mishra's Factories right now with him as well as the Two Towers (Volrath's Stronghold+Phyrexian Tower).

@ Decay: Depends on how prominent countertop is in your meta. If it's light, use Deeds/Pulses instead. If it's heavy, use Decays over Pulses.

@ DRS: 2 is a good number to run. Just because you can kill it with deed easily doesn't mean it doesn't pull its weight before or even after it hits the GY. 4 is too much with our love for Deed though.

[feline]

Could use a little inpout on a couple changes I'm considering to my list (GBw Rector). I just got a Primeval Titan and was considering running him with Treetop Villages. Is it a waste of time or does it mess up the mana base too much? Also, I have a playset of Abrupt Decays. So I'm gonna try to squeeze 2 or 3 of those in too, probably for a couple Vindicates or something. I also got 3 Deathrite Shamans, are they worth running a couple since I can Green Sun's Zenith into them or are they just too slow and not synergistic with Pernicious Deed?

Thanks guys. And Happy New Year!

Run Deathrite Shaman, it's 3 mana on turn 2, it's a way to get to the kill if you're at a stalemate or just cannot attack, it's a 1st turn blocker against Goblin Lackey / a 1/1 mongoose, etc & doesn't die, & it gain's life too for those times when you actually want it. There is also the fact that it eat's RUG's creatures, shrinks opposing Knight of the Reliquaries, & eats Dredge/Reanimator targets. The card's utility alone is just outrageous!

As far as Primeval Titan / Treetop Village goes, I don't have an answer for that one!

[TerribleTim68]

Solid answers gang, thanks. I was thinking of just two DRS as well, so we're on track there. I don't have Pulses yet so that one will be a later add/change, still trying to get there. I hadn't thought of Prime-Time tutoring up the Towers like that, good call there. That might actually nudge me to drop back to a single Tower instead of running two, then I can up my green mana land count a bit too. Some times it seems like I can't find one early for soem reason. I don't have any Factories so that isn't really an option. That's why I was thinking the Villages. But maybe the Man-Land plan isn't that big a deal.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Solid answers gang, thanks. I was thinking of just two DRS as well, so we're on track there. I don't have Pulses yet so that one will be a later add/change, still trying to get there. I hadn't thought of Prime-Time tutoring up the Towers like that, good call there. That might actually nudge me to drop back to a single Tower instead of running two, then I can up my green mana land count a bit too. Some times it seems like I can't find one early for soem reason. I don't have any Factories so that isn't really an option. That's why I was thinking the Villages. But maybe the Man-Land plan isn't that big a deal.

What's your land base like? Might be able to help.

[TerribleTim68]

I think right now it's -
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Bayou
1 Scrubland
7 Fetches

Oddly, I've had random openers where I don't find a green source for a couple turns. Hard to believe but it seems to happen here and there.

Edit - The random Scrubland is simply because I have it and don't have any Savannahs. If I did, I'd swap it out, but I don't.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

-1 Tower
-1 Forest (you'll see why here in a sec)
-3 Bayou

+2 Treetops/Mishra's/other manlands (I consider these to be utility lands as opposed to mana lands)
+1 Savannah
+1 Fetch (I recommend a 4/4 split of Verdants and Windswepts to help ensure you get a green mana source first turn)
+1 Other (not just land: it could be a business spell as well)

EDIT: this works best in a Wasteland-heavy meta, not necessarily a Stifle-heavy or 50/50 meta.

[TerribleTim68]

Thanks for the reply. The Savannah isn't an option, as I stated I don't have one and really can't afford one right now. I'll think the rest of it over.

[chapman24]

I have been lurking for awhile now and thought I would share my list and see if anyone had any insight into improving it or suggested changes. I have chosen to play Punishing Fire Nic Fit. I feel like it has a good BUG and RUG matchup, and is also solid vs. the fair decks in the format. My sideboard should help out in the combo matchups.

Here is my current list-

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Dark Confidant
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bone Shredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Acidic Slime
1 Grave Titan
1 Terastodon
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard-
2 Slaughter Games
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

Thanks for looking, and I'm open to any tips or advise. I'm really liking this style of deck.

[ceustice]

Anybody else eyeballing the cyclops in Gatecrash.

[litenkatt]

@chapman24

Interesting list..

Few changes I'd do, not saying they are correct though

-2 Birds of Paradise. I feel like veteran explorer ramps us enough. If you want more ramp, I'd suggest sakura elder-tribe or sylvan ranger. Birds also dies easily to deed and it doesn't have any synergy with recurring nightmare
-1 Dark Confidant. While this card is really good, revealing a grave titan or even terastodon is game.. :S. Nic fit generally has a high mana curve and I don't think that's the kind of decks where u want dark confidant. I do think nic fit needs some more card draw engine, but this dude is not what we want

Haven't tried Fauna shaman but seems like she could do some work I guess.. nice synergy with recurring nightmare but idk still feels pretty loose

+1 GSZ. I just don't see why you wouldn't want a 4th one, such an important card to nic fit imo

[bruizar]

Just a short update on the intuition build i was playing. It doesnt have a place in a drs meta so i put the deck down for a while. Working on godo mud and pillar ofmthe paruns for now until i have a good plan for nic fit again. Perhaps a cryptic command eternal witness lock snd play the control game.

If i were to play nic fit today, i'd go for the scapewish version. If drs is giving you head aches for eternal witness etc, punishing fires is really good right now.

[TerribleTim68]

Ok, so I put this list together -

Creatures - 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe-Elder
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
2 Acadamy Rector
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, The Morning Star
1 Baneslayer Angel
Spells - 20
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
Lands - 22
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Bayou
2 Llanowar Wastes
5 Fetchlands

Total = 61 cards

Now, all I gotta do is get brave enough to run it at my LGS. :tongue: A couple words on this current list. I don't own any Savannahs, so swapping out the lone Scrubland isn't an option or I would have done it already. I think Primeval Titan makes a HUGE difference getting to that Twin-Towers/Yosei lock. Solitairing the deck I find that to be much better than spending pointless turns Topping to find what you're looking for trying to set it up. The 2 Llanowar Wastes were an attempt to have a better chance of black/green mana early and in my opening hand, those two slots were fetches before. That early Veteran Explorer or Deathrite Shaman matters a lot so I wanted to make sure I got there. Plus, I was having issues with drawing fetches later in the game when there was no lands left to fetch, so at least these can be used all game. I think I can negate the life-loss with the Deathrite Shamans, Thragtusk and Baneslayer Angel once it gets moving so I think it'll be ok. The lone Baneslayer Angel verses two is because I only own one. I also don't own a Moat. Those are the two Deathrite Shaman spots in my list. I had a Grave Titan in there before I got my Primeval Titan. I like the way he mucks up the board with blockers, maybe sideboard against certain decks? I also had Kokusho, the Evening Star in there before I got the Baneslayer Angel. Again, maybe sidebaord for the extra life gain against certain decks?

Ok, now it's your turn. What don't you like? What would you do?

[Tao]

@Tim: I would play Recycle (or Null Profusion) over Phyrexian Arena. It is a much better target for Rector and also worth 6 Mana when hardcasted. You could also split Sylvan Ranger and Tribe Elder 1/1 for Cabal Therapy reasons.

[TerribleTim68]

Thanks Tao. I actually looked all over for a Null Profusion but NONE of the local shops had one (I also recently went to Salt Lake for vacation & the 5 shops I stopped at there didn't have one either). They also didn't have a Recycle either. Eventually I'll get one, most likely the black one since it has better artwork. :tongue:

As for the Sylvan Ranger/Sakura-Tribe Elder split, I considered it but felt the Sakura-Tribe Elder was better verses Dredge. But I see what you're saying so I'll consider that one.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

Thoughts?

[feline]

This list might help as a reference for sideboard stuff:
~32nd place - Colin Wu - 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship - 350 players - Aug-18th-2012 - http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65752
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
2 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
Instants [7]
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [10]
1 Regrowth
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
Enchantments [4]
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers [3]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands [22]
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard [15]
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap

I don't know why this deck doesn't have more success stateside, on the other side of the Atlantic it's seen alot more.

(Also come to Comics Cube on Thursday TTim68, since you're back in town)

[TheArchitect]

@Tim, If were to to build GBW rector without moat and nether void I would make the following the changes from your list:

-1 Yosei, -1 Sun titan, -1 Empath, -1 Baneslayer, -2 Vindicate
+1 Armada Wurm, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Faith's Fetters, +1 Elspeth/Garruk, prime hunter, +0 (down to 60 cards)

Im a big fan of primetitan myself, but armada wurm might be better in your deck. If you really like prime titan, which I do, maybe do both. So your 2 6 drops can be GSZ able, and you can cut sun titan, yosei and empath.

Abrupt decays are really good right now. And Faiths fetters is still really good with rector.

Elspeth/Prime hunter help the miracles match up tremendously. Prime hunter more so, but GGG can be tricky.

You dont really need baneslayer/yosei without moat its pretty lackluster.

I like the 2/2 deathright/tribe-elder split.

I have tried recycle yet, but it seems like a good swap for arena on paper.

While I am not anti 61 cards, your list actually has some wriggle room since it isnt so rector reliant, so why not do 60?


Also, definitly change the llanowar wastes back to fetches. You can always grab bayous with them. Dont worry about running out of "real" land late game after a few prime titan triggers. 12ish land is way more than enough. Having a high fetch concentration is also important for top. If you dont physically have the fetches, then llanowar wastes isnt too bad.


I don't know why this deck doesn't have more success stateside, on the other side of the Atlantic it's seen alot more.
I dont know either, its well positioned in the meta. I think there just isnt enough really good players playing it.

I have to say though, that list you posted looks really janky (even noting that its from a slightly older and different meta).

[chapman24]

@chapman24

Interesting list..

Few changes I'd do, not saying they are correct though

-2 Birds of Paradise. I feel like veteran explorer ramps us enough. If you want more ramp, I'd suggest sakura elder-tribe or sylvan ranger. Birds also dies easily to deed and it doesn't have any synergy with recurring nightmare
-1 Dark Confidant. While this card is really good, revealing a grave titan or even terastodon is game.. :S. Nic fit generally has a high mana curve and I don't think that's the kind of decks where u want dark confidant. I do think nic fit needs some more card draw engine, but this dude is not what we want

Haven't tried Fauna shaman but seems like she could do some work I guess.. nice synergy with recurring nightmare but idk still feels pretty loose

+1 GSZ. I just don't see why you wouldn't want a 4th one, such an important card to nic fit imo

Thanks for looking it over.

I was also thinking that the Fauna Shaman was a little cute, I have been trimming it down each time I playtest, I started with 3 then 2 and now only the one left so I'm willing to let that go. I could try out GSZ in this spot. As for the Birds I really like the extra ramp to start and since I have the Natural Order package in the SB it is nice to have more early green creatures, but how good is Natural Order into Progenitus right now? Would opening up 5-6 SB slots be better?

I like the Dark Confidant vs. control decks as a mid game drop when both players are out of gas and by then I hope to have a top in play.

Thoughts?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks for looking it over.

I was also thinking that the Fauna Shaman was a little cute, I have been trimming it down each time I playtest, I started with 3 then 2 and now only the one left so I'm willing to let that go. I could try out GSZ in this spot. As for the Birds I really like the extra ramp to start and since I have the Natural Order package in the SB it is nice to have more early green creatures, but how good is Natural Order into Progenitus right now? Would opening up 5-6 SB slots be better?

I like the Dark Confidant vs. control decks as a mid game drop when both players are out of gas and by then I hope to have a top in play.

Thoughts?

I'd say Phyrexian Arena or Sylvan Library over Dark Confidant, and even then those are sketchy choices due to vulnerability to Deed.

Arena is the more consistent one, and probably the most appropriate for this archetype. However, Library can act like a pseudo-top and in a pinch can draw you two cards for 8 life.

[Tao]

Just a quick report. I played another ML Trial. This time I played a Punishing Fire version.


// Lands
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Mountain
2 [B] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Badlands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [M11] Sylvan Ranger
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
3 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
1 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague



R1 Halldir with Goblins

G1
Poor Halldir. Already kicked him out of the master, and now I replaced Brainstorm and Jace with Punishing Fire and Huntmaster. This matchup is one-sided. Therapy is broken against Matron/Ringleader, Punishing Fire is unfair, Deed is unfair, Thragtusk is unfair, Huntmaster is great.

SB
- 1 Recurring Nightmare
- 1 Broodmate Dragon
+ 2 Engineered Plague

G2
I have no idea what to take out. Everything is good. He has 2 Lands and Vial, I have Deed. I don't have Explorer and don't Zenith for it when I see his mana situation so he just scoops. I don't think it would have mattered if he had lands.

2-0, 1-0


R2 clipzzzz with RUG

G1
I keep a one lander with Forest, Explorer, Sylvan Ranger, double Cabal Therapy a Deed and a Huntmaster. I draw Top the next turn and stall on one land for a bit while he disrupts my Mana and beats me with Delver but can't hit on the ground with his Mongoose. I eventually find a Swamp and explode just in time.

SB
- 3 Cabal Therapy
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers

G2
It is very close again. I go to 4 life and have to shuffle away my Top to stay alive. I stabilize with Broodmate Dragon against a 5/6 Goyf and we have a stalemate with no cards in hand. He finds another Tarmogoyf, I find a Thragtusk. I don't remember exactly what happened but I start swinging in the air and we get into a race that I win on the back of Thragtusk life gain and Dragon Token hits.

2-0 (2-0, 4-0)


R3 vaselien with Burn

G1
I win the die roll and I have T3 and T4 Thragtusk but he maindecks Sulfuric Vortex so I only gain life the first time. I have no Deed and no Punishing Fire for his chumpblockers so he is one turn faster than me.

SB
+ 3 Krosan Grip
+ 2 Thoughtseize
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 2 Damnation
- 1 Broodmate Dragon
- 1 Eternal Witness


G2
I have T3, T4 and T5 Thragtusk with Krosan Grip backup. Thats quite the draw.

G3
I have a quick Explorer but I have to shuffle my Top away to live so I have no way to deal with his Ensnaring Bridge, but I do have double Thragtusk and he has no Sulfuric Vortex. I have all 4 Punishing Fire so we both go on very low life but one turn before his deciding topdeck I topdeck Deed, blow up Brdge and attack with Thragtusks ftw.

2-1 (3-0, 6-1)

R4 Bye

I dropped after that and didn't play the final because it is very late in Europe.


- I absolutely love the Maindeck. I would not change a single card. From the feeling it was at least as strong as the BUG version. Especially if there are a lot of Deathrite Shamans Punishing Fire does a good job.

- I absolutely hate the Sideboard but I have no idea how to make a better one. What I want to add are probably a few Go for the Throats to deal with giant Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers.

[Arianrhod]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138287&d=1357102982

Hrngh.

I suppose that this would be way too good if it said "Each creature without flying," instead of "target creature without flying." Still, this is worthy of consideration for Scapewish at least, and possibly the old PFire/straight Jund versions as well. As a sorcery, it's a solid Wish target, and it can deal with a Tombstalker and a Tarmgoyf at the same time, while doming your opponent for 5 just 'cause.

Note, at the current intersection of meta that we find ourselves within, I would -not- recommend running this card in Scapewish. However, it is definitely worth considering for future meta shifts, and I would recommend picking up a copy to stash on a Wish target page in your binder. The day may well come that this sees play.

-----

At this point, my plan is to play in the legacy challenge at C-bus on Saturday, using Rector. Then I'll be Scapewishing on Sunday in the main event (well, what's the main event for me, anyway). Anyone who's done a legacy challenge at an SCG before, what's the meta like? I'm assuming it'll be something akin to win-a-boxes at GPs -- that is, heavy on combo and "front-loaded" power decks that try to just overwhelm the opponent, with a decent supply of format ringers (miracles, 'blade, BUG, and so on).

I'm not entirely sure that I'm on the Abrupt Decay plan yet or not (for Scapewish). I don't really like the card THAT much, mostly because it's such a known entity. It does fulfill a valued role in combating Junk and BUG, which I expect to be big players at Columbus. There's a sea of options for those 2 slots (assuming that I take it down to 60, which seems likely). Thoughtseizes, Pulses, or Decays are all on the table, as are things like Scavenging Ooze, Acidic Slime, 'Don, and a half dozen other Green Sun targets.

Likewise, I am unsure of what I want to do with the Diabolic Intent slot in Rector. I am convinced that it is no longer the correct choice for that slot. The problem is, then, what role I want what slot to fill. Does it NEED to be a sac outlet? I kind of want to move the Nether Void maindeck, so that I have at least "a" plan g1 vs combo. But there are a lot of problems with that, too -- not the least of which being that I don't have Carpet of Flowers main to recover from it damaging me vs fair decks (Miracles comes immediately to mind). I mean yeah, then you can say that well, just don't play it/Rector it vs fair decks -- but then that's a dead card if I draw it at any point. Maybe Leyline of Sanctity? That interferes with almost every deck somehow, and can ROYALLY dick over some decks g1. It's also an answer to Jace, since they can't fateseal you/ult you anymore. Obviously he still sits there casting Brainstorm every turn, which is still bad, but he's not a wincon by himself anymore. It does nothing to Emrakul-based combo, though. Part of me wants to say that it should be the 4th Green Sun, or the Recycle slot (so that I can keep Arena). Too many options.

So yeah, those are the things I'm mulling over right now. If anyone has thoughts to contribute, that'd be great. I hate having open slots in my Nic Fit decks. There's such a tyranny of options.

[slikwilly]

At this point, my plan is to play in the legacy challenge at C-bus on Saturday, using Rector. Then I'll be Scapewishing on Sunday in the main event (well, what's the main event for me, anyway). Anyone who's done a legacy challenge at an SCG before, what's the meta like? I'm assuming it'll be something akin to win-a-boxes at GPs -- that is, heavy on combo and "front-loaded" power decks that try to just overwhelm the opponent, with a decent supply of format ringers (miracles, 'blade, BUG, and so on).
My first exposure to Nic Fit was JBone crushing me with it during a Legacy Challenge at SCG Madison :) I've played a couple Challenges and don't recall the meta being combo heavy or anything like that. Mostly it seemed like people who like Legacy and scrubbed out of the Standard Open. A friend of mine is actually going to Columbus instead of Denver because he expects a soft field there since all the usual SCG ringers will be in Denver.


Likewise, I am unsure of what I want to do with the Diabolic Intent slot in Rector. I am convinced that it is no longer the correct choice for that slot. The problem is, then, what role I want what slot to fill. Does it NEED to be a sac outlet? I kind of want to move the Nether Void maindeck, so that I have at least "a" plan g1 vs combo. But there are a lot of problems with that, too -- not the least of which being that I don't have Carpet of Flowers main to recover from it damaging me vs fair decks (Miracles comes immediately to mind). I mean yeah, then you can say that well, just don't play it/Rector it vs fair decks -- but then that's a dead card if I draw it at any point. Maybe Leyline of Sanctity? That interferes with almost every deck somehow, and can ROYALLY dick over some decks g1. It's also an answer to Jace, since they can't fateseal you/ult you anymore. Obviously he still sits there casting Brainstorm every turn, which is still bad, but he's not a wincon by himself anymore. It does nothing to Emrakul-based combo, though. Part of me wants to say that it should be the 4th Green Sun, or the Recycle slot (so that I can keep Arena). Too many options.

I pulled my Intent to squeeze in the E-Tutor I mentioned previously. I'm also still considering my Denver options. It's probably a terrible idea, but I kinda want to bring that token list I put up a couple weeks back. Yup, played it zero times (I figured I'd start trying to develop it post-Denver) and now I want to bring it to a GP. Brilliant! Don't be surprised if the guy last in the standings is me giving Nic Fit a bad name ;)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Funny how that works, eh? Getting crushed by someone inspires you to emulate them to some degree in hopesnof surpassing them? Did it a few times in the Fighting Game Community.

Also, I'm going in blind and inexperienced on Feb 17, and I could use help on siding strategies.

EDIT: http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/312247

Basically, the jist is as thus:

Out for Manasinks (i.e. Miracles): 3 Vet
Out for NoYard/MinYard: 2 DRS, 1 Ooze
In for Blue-Heavy: 3 Carpet
In for Non-Dredge Combo: 3 IoK/Duress (unsure which would be best: actually thinking IoK since it hits Elves)
In for Weenie Tribal/Tokens (Belcher, Gobbos, Elves, Merfolk): 3 Plague

[TerribleTim68]

(Also come to Comics Cube on Thursday TTim68, since you're back in town)[/color]

I'll try. Honestly it comes down to what time I get out of work and how traffic looks. It's an 1:15 drive on a good day, and I gotta stop and eat somewhere along the way. So it's always tight.

[Siiig]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138287&d=1357102982


I've actually been running a single Rakdo's Return in my sideboard as a discard/burn wish target. That being said, I've never wished for it, and never really wanted to wish for it (other than to troll people).

Granted, that's a kill card too, but I feel like there are better kill cards to be used. Damnation?


Isn't Wall of Blossoms straight up better than Sakura-Tribe Elder?

What do you guys think of Blitz Hellion as a GSZ-able answer to Planeswalkers for Scapewish?

Someone already mentioned WoB being different than Elder.


Blitz Hellion then the mention of GroundBreaker as ways of helping with walkers kind of blew my mind. I used to have a huge hard on for Ground Breaker when I was younger then completely forgot about the card. I wind up playing against blue a lot, so it sounds like a really fun way to deal with Jace.

I also run a single Dreadbore in my board as a wish target for these instances, works on Teag too.


I've played quite a few main-board only games against Kich867's new AgroLoam deck. While I'm confident his deck would destroy others, he definitely has a rough time with Scapewish. Slaughter Games on Life from the Loam ends the deck, but you rarely need to take it to that play as our deck should just naturally win before it's necessary.


Towards Miracles... To say it's our worst "fair" matchup seems like an odd thing to say. We're a deck that rolls over fair decks. I think with good play they will still have an extremely rough time.

Honestly, I actually have the worst time against Maverick, I need to get more play time in against it.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hmm. . . And you are on Scapewish, right? In that case, I can see how Maverick can be more of a problem than Miracles, as Scapewish can pull a win out of nowhere against Miracles but its best removal, Bonfire and Huntsman, gets shafted by Mom and a fatty clock.

[Siiig]

Hmm. . . And you are on Scapewish, right? In that case, I can see how Maverick can be more of a problem than Miracles, as Scapewish can pull a win out of nowhere against Miracles but its best removal, Bonfire and Huntsman, gets shafted by Mom and a fatty clock.

Yup, on Scapewish. I would expect the same thing to be true of Maverick as Miracles (since they're clocks aren't insanely fast, and their threats should be deal-with-able).

[Arianrhod]

Hmm. What's your wishboard setup, Siig, if you don't mind writing it out again? A lot of the means of success vs Maverick comes down to what your Wishboard targets are.

As far as Miracles goes, it really just comes down to how many Slaughter Games you find. Slaughter Games is far and away the best tool against them -- they run so few win conditions that they can't really handle you stripping them out. As long as you're actively developing your mana base while applying pressure on their board state and their deck's contents, you'll be fine. It's an annoying match, to be sure, but not one that is especially hard for Scapewish. Rector has a much more challenging time of it, but can usually pull through -- eventually. I'm talking like 45-minute game-one situations here.

Also, if you want to talk about trolling people with Rakdos Return, before I completely gave up on standard, I designed a mono-black-dual-land deck around Liliana of the Dark Realms. I believe my record was I Rakdos Return'd someone for 63. Good times.

For Scapewish, though, yeah, there's definitely much better uses for a wish slot, lol.

Dreadbore is okay, but Pulse is better, though. Pulse does everything Dreadbore does, but hits more things. Also, both are poor answers to Teeg because usually where you find Teeg, you find Mother of Runes alongside him. The best Teeg answers are Infest and Virtue's Ruin/Perish, bar none.

[Siiig]

Hmm. What's your wishboard setup, Siig, if you don't mind writing it out again? A lot of the means of success vs Maverick comes down to what your Wishboard targets are.

As far as Miracles goes, it really just comes down to how many Slaughter Games you find. Slaughter Games is far and away the best tool against them -- they run so few win conditions that they can't really handle you stripping them out. As long as you're actively developing your mana base while applying pressure on their board state and their deck's contents, you'll be fine. It's an annoying match, to be sure, but not one that is especially hard for Scapewish. Rector has a much more challenging time of it, but can usually pull through -- eventually. I'm talking like 45-minute game-one situations here.

Also, if you want to talk about trolling people with Rakdos Return, before I completely gave up on standard, I designed a mono-black-dual-land deck around Liliana of the Dark Realms. I believe my record was I Rakdos Return'd someone for 63. Good times.

For Scapewish, though, yeah, there's definitely much better uses for a wish slot, lol.

Dreadbore is okay, but Pulse is better, though. Pulse does everything Dreadbore does, but hits more things. Also, both are poor answers to Teeg because usually where you find Teeg, you find Mother of Runes alongside him. The best Teeg answers are Infest and Virtue's Ruin/Perish, bar none.

Good point on the mom/teag thing. A large part of my wish board is currently just things I went through my binder and said "LOL" at, with a some staples.

Board:
3x REB
2x Abrupt Decay (All I got)
1x Dreadbore
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reanimate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Shift
1x Innocent Blood
1x Damnation
2x (I think?) Slaughter Games
1x Praetor's Grasp


I'm missing one, but I can only imagine it isn't important. Oh...

It's the grasp. Wasted slot for sure haha. If anything I would switch it to +1 Games.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod,

Gaddock Teeg maindeck is as good as it gets for the speed and consistency. Play a 4th GSZ to begin with and throw in a MD Teeg as a concession to combo. There is as much dissynergy with Teeg in Nic Fit than there is with Teeg in Maverick... almost none. A Rector sacrifice is too slow for any Storm combo deck if you don't have nuts discard to support it.

On a different note, what do you guys think about Innocent Blood vs. Fleshbag Marauder in a GBW Nic Fit deck sporting Fierce Empath and a single Sun Titan?

What I liked the most out of Marauder was how it worked out with Show n Tell and how RUG couldn't Spell Pierce it. Also, if I have to use it proactively as an Explorer sac outlet I have more value left than if I am forced to IB. Then there is the whole 1 CMC vs. 3 CMC thing...


Blitz Hellion then the mention of GroundBreaker as ways of helping with walkers kind of blew my mind. I used to have a huge hard on for Ground Breaker when I was younger then completely forgot about the card. I wind up playing against blue a lot, so it sounds like a really fun way to deal with Jace.


I think Timbermare is the best card for that purpose. Taping all blockers, swinging for exactly 5, being out of Deed range, and potentialy leaving a 5/5 body behind is pretty good. If you thought Vindicate or Pulse were our only options against Planeswalkers, how about sticking a 5/5 body to it and making it GSZ-able for 1 more mana.

[lambert101]

@Arianrhod

You were right my mana base was bad. :( Due to laziness I switched back to your signature list. I did test a 4th top and deed in the two flex spots and they were ok. Seeing top more in opening hands was good.

[Claymore]

I liked having the Marauders over the Innocent Blood. A Spell Pierce makes both cost 2B so that point is kinda meh, although the attached body is nice if you sac something else, and it gives you an alternative Sun Titan engine late game which is delicious.

IB helps more against the likes of Infect and some swarms where you need to churn out the removal as fast as possible (granted Marauder-Titan helped me slaughter Zoo a few times), so I think it largely comes down to a meta/playstyle call. Both work well in the deck overall.

[Tao]

I also made a signature with my current lists now, I think that was a very good idea. Also I have to say that the Punishing Fire list performs far better than I would have thought. It is a blast to play and I think it is currently stronger than the blue list.

[TheArchitect]

I have been really happy with this mana base for Scapeshift:

Land (24):
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Tiaga
4 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Verdent Catacombs
2 Valakut
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's stonghold


Mana Sources:
9 - Black (not counting tower)
15 - Red (11 actual mountaints)
11 - Green

Volrath's stonghold is the nuts, I dont really feel like repeating what Ive said previously but I think not running it cant be right. Very rarely it gets wasted or makes a colorless when you want a colored mana making me wish it was just a basic, but maybe 1 in 40 games the fact that its not just basic makes a game breaking impact on the game, while it wins probably 1 in 10 games that would not be able to be won if it was just another land in my deck. Like I have said before my wins go roughly 50% to scapeshift, 30% to Huntmaster/thrag beats, 20% Prime Titan into the two towers. And the stronghold, helps win games when you are on the beatdown plan too. Not much in legacy can beat you if you cast a thragtusk or huntmaster every turn.

Ideally, we'd have like 12 fetches in this deck since we use top, but obviously there are other constraints on our manabase. However, thats no reason to drop fetches entirely. 2 is the number that can be fit in without messing up our mountain count. Although I can see it happening in rare circumstances, I have literally never lost game because I need 1 or 2 more mountains in my deck. While just about every single game, I see a fetch and it gets the exact land I need and/or provide a shuffle I need, where a stomping ground or basic land would not have cut it.

[chapman24]

I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?

[_Fe_]

I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?

Depends, does a NO package actually help you out in any match-ups?

[Osmin]

Arianrhod, have you considered Overmaster in Scapewish against Miracles?

[Tao]

Natural Order is a bad SB choice for Fire versions. It does not help against any of the bad matchups (Emrakul/Griselbrand > Progenitus) and doesn't improve the good matchups. I am not even sure when you would bring it in. Aside from that I want to emphasize again how well Punishing Nic Fit does in my testing. I barely lose.

[chapman24]

Natural Order is a bad SB choice for Fire versions. It does not help against any of the bad matchups (Emrakul/Griselbrand > Progenitus) and doesn't improve the good matchups. I am not even sure when you would bring it in. Aside from that I want to emphasize again how well Punishing Nic Fit does in my testing. I barely lose.

I was thinking that the NO package had turned into win more and was not really needed, I think I was holding onto it so long because I love NO myself.

I would also like to point out how solid Punishing Fire is right now, since I added it into my G/B list my matchups ws. BUG, RUG, and Mavrick have all went up. BUG and RUG are almost easy with repeatable ways to shoot down the small guys, eating planeswalkers in the control matchups was a pleasent surprise and is very good. I also have been enjoying how well PF combos with Liliana of the Veil make your opponet discard and you just get your PF back...so good!!!

Chapman24

[Arianrhod]

I'm playing BGR punishing Nic Fit and was wondering if it is worth the SB slots to play Natural Order and Progenitus or would I be better of with 5 or 6 cards to help other matchups?

Jund doesn't give two shits about Deathrite Shaman, especially when you have PFires. Rector wants NO because its Rector package gets hosed by Deathrite Shaman. At this time, I don't recommend NO for any other version of Nic Fit.


@Arianrhod,

Gaddock Teeg maindeck is as good as it gets for the speed and consistency. Play a 4th GSZ to begin with and throw in a MD Teeg as a concession to combo. There is as much dissynergy with Teeg in Nic Fit than there is with Teeg in Maverick... almost none. A Rector sacrifice is too slow for any Storm combo deck if you don't have nuts discard to support it.

On a different note, what do you guys think about Innocent Blood vs. Fleshbag Marauder in a GBW Nic Fit deck sporting Fierce Empath and a single Sun Titan?

What I liked the most out of Marauder was how it worked out with Show n Tell and how RUG couldn't Spell Pierce it. Also, if I have to use it proactively as an Explorer sac outlet I have more value left than if I am forced to IB. Then there is the whole 1 CMC vs. 3 CMC thing...



I think Timbermare is the best card for that purpose. Taping all blockers, swinging for exactly 5, being out of Deed range, and potentialy leaving a 5/5 body behind is pretty good. If you thought Vindicate or Pulse were our only options against Planeswalkers, how about sticking a 5/5 body to it and making it GSZ-able for 1 more mana.

I'm torn between Hellion and Timbermare. The fact Hellion reshuffles like Green Sun allows you to just keep bringing him out, over and over again. Also, the fact that he's a 7 on the ass-end is probably relevant, since 95% of Goyfs won't be able to profitable trade with him 1-for-1. Timbermare tapping down their stuff is a strong ability, though, and in fact seems like it could be even stronger in one of the versions with Recurring Nightmare. Letting him die to his echo only to bring him back and tap their blockers again seems strong. I don't like that he taps -your- blockers, too, though.

Hellion also gives some sick synergy with Top, since he doesn't shuffle until EoT -- that lets you Green Sun him, then Top -- drawing anything that you want (aka wins the game), then Hellion shuffles away whatever you don't want EoT. Good use for extra Tops. I'm thinking that Hellion is PROBABLY the way to go for Scapewish, but I do think that Timbermare has a place somewhere, likely alongside Recurring Nightmare. Both are good finds.

I used to run Fleshbag Marauder when Sneak was big, as another maindeck way to attack their Show and Tells. Over time, though, it got cut because as a 1-of, I never found it when I wanted to. It's not green, and it's not like we have Survival to dig it up. It's also not a 6+ drop, so you can't grab it with Empath. If you were to run 2-3 of them, however, I believe it would treat you pretty well. The only thing that Fleshie is a little weak to is in the Delver matchup. You really want your Innocent Blood effect to cost B there, not once you've taken 6+ from a flying bugman. I will note, though, that Fleshbag and Sun Titan is exactly as dirty as it sounds.

The problem with Teeg that I just can't get out of is that all of my powerful hate cards cost 4. Humility, Moat, Cranial/Memoricide, Nether Void -- all are 4s. I'm not as worried about my Green Suns, but I'd rather not have to rely on Rector in a combo matchup. If I naturally draw into Nether Void, or I have Cranial in my hand, I'd rather deploy those, more powerful (and more reliable) hate cards. Teeg is really strong, don't get me wrong. But I'm morally opposed to shutting off pieces of my own deck such that I HAVE to tutor for them. I cite again the example of decks like Viridia's which rely 100% on Rectoring out Omniscience, because they can't hardcast it. That's all fine and all, I guess, but it's not for me.


Arianrhod, have you considered Overmaster in Scapewish against Miracles?

I have. The problem with Overmaster is that Scapewish usually boards out its Burning Wishes in the Miracles matchup. Overmaster also suffers from being a 1-drop, which IMO is a serious liability vs Miracles because countertop. I'm sure there are some fringe cases where it would be worthwhile, but in order for Overmaster to actually do anything, the Burning Wish has to resolve first -- and if they have a counter, the odds are it's going to be directed at the Burning Wish anyway.

[Alexeezay]

Are you sure that an unprotected haste guy that dies or shuffles back is the right card?
What if they play Swords to Plowshares and you're fucked?
I think Thrun is still better because of protection & he stays on the battlefield for pressure.
But nonetheless I'm gonna test out Hellion because I put my Bonfires out anyway since they don't seem to be THAT good in the current meta. (my local meta at least)

@ overmaster: I'm with Arianrhod, in my eyes Overmaster is a wasted SB slot because why shouldn't we keep on running Thoughtseize/Duress which does more overall anyway

[Arianrhod]

Are you sure that an unprotected haste guy that dies or shuffles back is the right card?
What if they play Swords to Plowshares and you're fucked?
I think Thrun is still better because of protection & he stays on the battlefield for pressure.
But nonetheless I'm gonna test out Hellion because I put my Bonfires out anyway since they don't seem to be THAT good in the current meta. (my local meta at least)

@ overmaster: I'm with Arianrhod, in my eyes Overmaster is a wasted SB slot because why shouldn't we keep on running Thoughtseize/Duress which does more overall anyway

I think so, actually. By time we're dropping Hellion, there is no way a Jace deck is going to have Swords left (ignoring BUG which literally can't kill him). Same with Junk -- between Liliana bleeding their hand dry in addition to ours, they need every shred of spot removal they can get to deal with Huntmasters and Thragtusks. A lot of Junk players Swords Explorer on sight, too, if you give them the chance to do so. Scapewish's threat density is absurd enough already that I don't see the Swords-based midrange/control decks being able to deal with Hellion once he starts landing.

I also foresee Hellion providing random bullshit wins out of nowhere, because seriously, who the hell is going to expect that. Thinking back in my head over some past games, I can easily recall several games where Hellion doming someone who tapped out to attack me for 7 would win the game -- games that I actually lost.

Furthermore, I have had several games that have gone long enough to where I've burned through all of my offensive Green Sun targets. It's a rotten feeling when there's nothing left in your deck to Green Sun for other than Wood Elves and Explorers. Obviously those are more corner cases than not, but being able to turn every Green Sun you draw into a 7/7 haste trampler for the rest of the game seems amazing.

Obviously it'll need testing and etc etc, but I'm actually pretty optimistic about it.

[slikwilly]

All this talk of P-Fire and insane Jund threats is making me wanna give Jund colors a try.

[CRich3]

Could someone please inform me how to fit Natural Order in here? I picked a play set get cheap and would like to use it :).

[Arianrhod]

Put it in Rector's sideboard, so when you run into the Deathrite Shaman.decs, if they actually know how to eat Rector, you can just board out Rectors and board in NOs. Probably Nightmare comes out for the Progenitus.

[Qweerios]

I would play NO mainboard in a BUG shell using Brainstorm, Jace, creatures like Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Sylvan Ranger, and probably Force of Will.

[CRich3]

Is there a current jund list without burning wish? I'm finally putting I together, but I don't have any wishes.

[nottz]

There is the Punishing Fire list in Tao's sig. It has been performing very well as of late. Give it a try.

[Greenpoe]

I would play NO mainboard in a BUG shell using Brainstorm, Jace, creatures like Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Sylvan Ranger, and probably Force of Will.

This sounds pretty fantastic, except I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than NO Bant, since they can play NO on turn 3 as well.

[Alexeezay]

I got to test Blitz Hellion in scapewish with my playgroup today, all I can is that it's awesome and a nice addition to the deck. No one sees it coming. Especially good against Liliana and other planeswalker like predicted.
With the current meta of BUG/bg decks with Jace and Lili really effective. Also wins races and makes winning without Scapeshift easier.
Gonna play it in the tournament tomorrow.
What do you think of Life from the Loam in the Wishboard? I like it against Loam and Bug decks which are running rampant here
I cut Virtue's Ruin for it because there's a decline of Maverick and decks with relevant white creatures. Gaddock Teeg is a rare enemy now. (exception is Knight which can be dealt with anyway)
Also, Firespout over Pyroclasm? Firespout's advantage is killing Nimble Mongoose...

[Qweerios]

This sounds pretty fantastic, except I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than NO Bant, since they can play NO on turn 3 as well.

Yeah but Bant cannot play 4 copies of Deed and detonate them with no inhibition. Their dorks and creatures also don't generate any advantage when removed. Concerning NO/Prog, I don't think it's speed is what makes it good anyways. A heavy discard/removal shell is what I would favor instead of a tempo shell (FoW is probably not realisticaly competitive for this right now), therefore, NO would probably not see play before T4-5 anyway. Explorer is also not the ideal creature to NO off of either as it gives more ressources to your opponent when you play your win con. Wall of Blossoms, Coiling Oracle, Shardless Agent, and Eternal Witness for instance are all much more profitable sacrificial lambs.

[Vandalize]

Can anyone throw me a Scapewish Nic Fit list? A decent one, at least.

[Cire_dk]

Can anyone throw me a Scapewish Nic Fit list? A decent one, at least.

Check the sig of ArianRhod for a good list that I have been playing for a while now.

[Osmin]

I have. The problem with Overmaster is that Scapewish usually boards out its Burning Wishes in the Miracles matchup.

I see. Does you board out all wishes? Or something like -2 Explorer -2 Wish -1 Pernicious Deed -1 Wood Elves +3 REB +3 Slaughter Games?

[Arianrhod]

Bout to be in the legacy challenge here with rector. Only maindeck changes -1 intent +1 null profusion

[Viridia]

Finally made the effort to put my lists in my signature, will update to include the 4 color Omniscience and a BUG Order list soon :P

[kabards]

Good Luck to the Nic-Fitters who plays on Grand Prix Denver :cool:

[Arianrhod]

Ill be providing updates from my phone as the day for you guys...so expdct spam and poor spelling.

Also, rector refused to draw deeds last nigbt, which is a problem considering thr gbx metagame. Did meet another fledgling rector player, though, so its cool. Profusion/arena is overly redundant as all hell, and I have been fairly impressed with profusion. Its a lot easier to get rolling than I was expecting.

[lambert101]

Arianrhod,
Good luck today!

[litenkatt]

arianrhod

you're on the scapewish today correct?

and good luck too!

[kabards]

Are you playing @Arianrhod on GP Denver?

[Arianrhod]

1-0. Beat death and taxes.

[Arianrhod]

2-0 beat miracles.

[kabards]

2-0 beat miracles.

awesome, bring Nic-Fit to Decks to Beat :cool:

[Arianrhod]

Lost 0-2 to uwr faeries. He saw all of his tempo and I saw none of my ramp.

[Arianrhod]

Beat belcher 2-0. Setails in the report but im a lucky mofo

[Arianrhod]

4-1. 2-0 vs miracles

[nottz]

Scapewish is live on SCGlive.

[litenkatt]

go kevin!

[Arianrhod]

5-1 after an on camera feature match against nivmagus.dec. needs more than 8 srifles to stop me!

[SirTylerGalt]

5-1 after an on camera feature match against nivmagus.dec. needs more than 8 srifles to stop me!

I missed that game. Need to watch the replay!

I'm rooting for you (like many people in the SCGLive chat, it seems) :)

[Arianrhod]

Beat high tide 2-1. Srill x-1 overall

[Arianrhod]

Lost to metalworker.

[Arianrhod]

Beat gobs 2-0 for x-2. ill make one moee post onxe I know my final standing and then ill stop spamming lol

[Kich867]

Lost to metalworker.

MUD decks with the nuts can be pretty tough to beat =/

[Arianrhod]

Got 14th. Good for 100.

[TheArchitect]

Congratulations! I saw the live stream. The way the commentators talk about nic fit is annoying and makes them sound like idiots, but you played well and it was fun to watch.

I look forward to reading your report later.

[_Fe_]

Was at work, what time does the feature match start?

[kabards]

i also got top 15th out of 40+ players yesterday playing my punishing Nic-Fit, my 2 loss was, Bant Enchantress that i could'nt find any of my Pernicious Deed and the second loss vs UW Miracles i got a bad draw in out 2 games.
Add up this was my match up :

Rd-1 Bye
Rd-2 UW Miracle - 0-2 Loss
Rd-3 RUG - 2-0
Rd-4 Esper Stoneblade - 2-0 - Win
Rd-5 MUD Forgemaster - 2-1 - Win
Rd-6 Bant Enchantress - 1-2 Loss
Rd-7 HiveMind - 2-0

[nottz]

The way the commentators talk about Nic Fit is soooo annoying. They act like the deck is terrible and every move is terrible and every opener is terrible. When Arianhod was playing I must have tweeted the commentators 3 separate times trying to explain some of your play paths. Anyway, congrats to both of you for very nice finishes in your tourneys. A question for you Arianhod, in the games you lost do you think you could have won them if you played a little better or were they simply unwinnable?

[TheArchitect]

The way the commentators talk about Nic Fit is soooo annoying. They act like the deck is terrible and every move is terrible and every opener is terrible. When Arianhod was playing I must have tweeted the commentators 3 separate times trying to explain some of your play paths. Anyway, congrats to both of you for very nice finishes in your tourneys. A question for you Arianhod, in the games you lost do you think you could have won them if you played a little better or were they simply unwinnable?

Its really obnoxious. At one point I remember them saying something about how the mono blue deck with no clock that he was playing was definitely the favored deck in the matchup. When in reality it was probably like more of bye than UR delver is since they are slower and dont have PoP. Kevin then 2-0'd him.

Or like "herp derp its a standard deck cause hes playing thragtusk and huntmaster". It just so happens that wizards likes to print better creatures in every set, so yes, the creatures the deck uses for the beatdown plan happen to be legal in standard. So obviously also makes BUG delver (arguably THE legacy deck to beat) must be a standard deck, since it's playing DRS and delver.

At one point, to they raved about how not playing dryad arbor MUST be wrong, which made it really obvious they haven't done any testing with the deck whatsoever cause arbor is god awful.

[Megadeus]

Honestly this is why I try not to listen to the streams. I will not claim to know everything about the format, but a lot of the commentators seem to have not seen very many of the more fringe decks like Nic Fit and have no idea how they work.

[Qweerios]

What tournament is Arianrhod playing in?

[Tao]

That what nottz and TheArchitect say! And the commentators were so arrogant about it. One said "I talked to a few players and they claim that Dryad Arbor is not good in this ... I don't believe them" and then babbles on about how Arbor would be better than Tribe Elder. What an idiot.

[Osmin]

What tournament is Arianrhod playing in?

Starcity Open.

[Cire_dk]

Congratulations Arianrhod on your great finish, looking forward to your report.

Well done Kabards, you keep on going strong with your list as well.

As far as comments are concerned, one day Nic Fit will rule and the ignorant will find out the hard way how good (and how much fun) it is :tongue:

[crow_mw]

Its more that the commentators don't recognize Legacy as a serious format than not recognize Nic Fit as a serious deck. Congrats on the finish!

[Firepaw3]

Got 14th. Good for 100.

How was the blitz hellion?

[TheArchitect]

Its more that the commentators don't recognize Legacy as a serious format than not recognize Nic Fit as a serious deck. Congrats on the finish!

For a lot of the commentators thats true, but Ari Lax and Adam Prozac are serious, and skilled legacy players though. Im not 100% sure, but I THINK it is their preferred format even.

I dont understand how so many people don't even know some of the basic interactions of nic fit, let alone respect the deck, it was a DTB for like 3 months for crying out loud.