[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

So there's this hot new deck out there you guys might be interested in. It's a BGx control deck that abuses the synergy between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy to disrupt the opponent and ramp into big finishers. I think the kids were calling it "Nic Fit"?

I think it has lots of potential. Can we discuss this idea instead?

I like this idea =)

So, since nobody said anything, I'm assuming that I'm the only one going to Edison? #SCGBlizzard

Also, who all here is going to Cinncinnati? I will not be, but I'd like to know how many we have there and who to keep an eye out for on the coverage.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You'll take your arrogance and your elitist attitude, and you'll kindly remove yourself back to a thread that cares.

I play storm. This shouldn't be a surprise.


I will not allow anyone to blithely poke their head in here and start potshotting the players who make this thread the best goddamn community on the Source. ELC is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else in this thread, and he is entitled to express that opinion how he deems fit.

I've followed this thread for a long time. Opinions can and should be challenged.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I like this idea =)

So, since nobody said anything, I'm assuming that I'm the only one going to Edison? #SCGBlizzard

Also, who all here is going to Cinncinnati? I will not be, but I'd like to know how many we have there and who to keep an eye out for on the coverage.

Double post, but HoneyT's Punishing Fire Nic Fit list is probably the best suited for the current North American metagame.

Beating a dead horse, but Kessig Wolf Run is a house.

Going forward, this deck should be playing Mindbreak Trap in the board. At least 2, 3 at most.

[Arianrhod]

Double post, but HoneyT's Punishing Fire Nic Fit list is probably the best suited for the current North American metagame.

Beating a dead horse, but Kessig Wolf Run is a house.

Going forward, this deck should be playing Mindbreak Trap in the board. At least 2, 3 at most.

Agreed regarding Mindbreak Trap. The incoming Belcher/Storm metagame is only going to get worse before it gets better -- it's only natural that such a thing should happen in response to the midrange decks getting uppity.

PFire seems strong in that it has a weaker fair-deck matchup than Scapewish (though still absurdly good), but it less linear and has a sideboard to dedicate to combo. That ability to beat combo is a strong point in its favor as the dominant red-version list going forward. Once blue picks back up again, Scapewish will probably return to being the go-to red list...but for now, I agree -- PFire is stronger.

As for PFire compared to Rector, the Jace lists, G/B, and Junk, I dunno. I feel like it's better in the meta than Junk and Jace, but on par with or worse than Rector and G/B. G/B is actually in a very strong position currently, due to its extra disruption. I mean, the moment combo starts aggressively adopting Leyline of Sanctity, things get worse for G/B...but until then, I think G/B is a more solid choice than it has been for many months.

[slikwilly]

I had to cave to put a second thragtusk in just to hit 60 cards with this list haha.

I dream of the day I build a deck and have that problem... I'm pretty sure the day I got my second Revised starter was the day I started having problems cutting to 60!


So, since nobody said anything, I'm assuming that I'm the only one going to Edison? #SCGBlizzard

Also, who all here is going to Cinncinnati? I will not be, but I'd like to know how many we have there and who to keep an eye out for on the coverage.

I'm debating Cincinnati since I found out the following Monday is a holiday for me which makes the 6 hour drive home less of an issue. If I do I'm not sure I'll be on Nic Fit; I have been itching to play some Stoneforge again...

[TerribleTim68]

So there's this hot new deck out there you guys might be interested in. It's a BGx control deck that abuses the synergy between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy to disrupt the opponent and ramp into big finishers. I think the kids were calling it "Nic Fit"?

I think it has lots of potential. Can we discuss this idea instead?

LOLZ!!!!! Best thing I've read all week!!! :cool:

[TerribleTim68]

So I guess I'm still stuck on this one, maybe you guys can give me pointers. I'll try to use the best grammar I can. :wink: :tongue:

So I'm playing around with a G/B/w Rector build and I can't seem to decide on what's better or how to balance the removal suite. I have the following cards in my possesion -

4x Swords to Plowshares (owned these from WAY back)
4x Pernicious Deed (owned these from way back)
4x Vindicate (owned these from way back, plus they are signed)
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse (these seem to be both harder to find and slightly more spendy than the above options for some reason)

Ok, now, this color build has a pretty sick selection of both spot and sweeping removal, right? The thing I don't like about Decay is the "converted mana cost 3 or less". What I'm struggling with also is, which ones really matter and how do you find room for what really matters? Swords gives your opponent life, which isn't all bad I know. But is the CMC 1 for a Sword or CMC 2 for Decay really a big deal in a deck that can ramp so well? I mean, it seems like I can get to the mana to cast a Vindicate or Pulse as quick as I need to cast a Swords anyway. So is the only real advantage to Swords the whole "Remove from game" bit and does that really matter?

Currently, my list has -
MB:
3x Pernicious Deed (running 2x Rector as well plus a solo Sun Titan for extra shenanigans)
2x Vindicate (running 1x Witness)
1x Maelstrom Pulse (see above)
SB:
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay

Should I make some changes to that? What do you guys think?

[slikwilly]

So I guess I'm still stuck on this one, maybe you guys can give me pointers. I'll try to use the best grammar I can. :wink: :tongue:

So I'm playing around with a G/B/w Rector build and I can't seem to decide on what's better or how to balance the removal suite. I have the following cards in my possesion -

4x Swords to Plowshares (owned these from WAY back)
4x Pernicious Deed (owned these from way back)
4x Vindicate (owned these from way back, plus they are signed)
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse (these seem to be both harder to find and slightly more spendy than the above options for some reason)

Ok, now, this color build has a pretty sick selection of both spot and sweeping removal, right? The thing I don't like about Decay is the "converted mana cost 3 or less". What I'm struggling with also is, which ones really matter and how do you find room for what really matters? Swords gives your opponent life, which isn't all bad I know. But is the CMC 1 for a Sword or CMC 2 for Decay really a big deal in a deck that can ramp so well? I mean, it seems like I can get to the mana to cast a Vindicate or Pulse as quick as I need to cast a Swords anyway. So is the only real advantage to Swords the whole "Remove from game" bit and does that really matter?

Currently, my list has -
MB:
3x Pernicious Deed (running 2x Rector as well plus a solo Sun Titan for extra shenanigans)
2x Vindicate (running 1x Witness)
1x Maelstrom Pulse (see above)
SB:
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay

Should I make some changes to that? What do you guys think?

I'm running Rector as well and my removal consists of 3 Deed, 1 Vindicate, 1 Pulse, 1 Decay. I think that's pretty typical, though the Decay comes and goes.

When you're looking at mana costs, it's not just "how much can I reach" but "how soon will I need it." Plowshares is awesome because it will stop a T1 Goblin Lackey before it gets out of hand, not because it exiles something. Meanwhile there's a good chance if your removal is Vindicate that Lackey has done some serious harm to your well being. (Note, this is hypothetical. If you're on Rector and running Moat you shouldn't worry about goblins too much.)

Were I you, I'd swap the second Vindicate in your main for a Decay. Decay hits a huge percentage of the format and being uncounterable sometimes matters. I'd drop the Pulse and Vindicate from the board and possibly the Decays.

[Remy]

I've come to realize that there are two basic "styles" of Nic Fit decks, on a base level: those with gimmicks, and those without. A gimmick can be defined as an extra engine that makes the deck -do- something, aside from just ramp and play big fat fatties while controlling the board state. Scapewish and Rector are both gimmick lists, as Scapewish has Burning Wish and Rector has...well...Rectors. At the same time, there are straight Jund and straight Junk lists of Nic Fit that don't run a gimmick, but play more like a Big Jund or a Big Junk, with relation to their smaller siblings (which do not run Explorer). Same with Jace Nic Fit as compared to something like Future Fit.

So....basically you've got a short list (per above) of the core staples that each version shares. Then you've got some thinking and deciding to do -- what splash color do you want, if any, and then what gimmick do you want, if any. Then we can give you more specific advice from there.

Thanks for the quick response and phenomenal input guys! :smile:

So the core does stand mostly how I remembered it from months ago, and then the potential just appears to explode from there. I have some definite thinking to do. Although considering my first entry back in to Legacy was Goblins its a welcome change to have 'freedom' in deck choice. :tongue:

I'll probably be play testing a creature light PW build (I've been looking for an excuse to run Garruk <3) and a Scapeshift variant. Though I am interested in running a KotR build that abuses utility land, but I feel it might be underwhelming in the current meta.

Have any of the Scapeshift variant pilots found the comfortable number of Scapeshift to actually run? And should I leave 1 sideboard and run a Burning Wishboard? That's my only real debate with that for the time being. If I find something super successful or stumble across any awesome tech I'll be sure to post it here :cool:

[Blastoderm]

I play storm. This shouldn't be a surprise.



I've followed this thread for a long time. Opinions can and should be challenged.

lol storm, I always have the pleasure of destroying this with nic fit.

[MrIggins]

I like this idea =)

So, since nobody said anything, I'm assuming that I'm the only one going to Edison? #SCGBlizzard


While I personally will not be going, Jesse Adams who you probably know from Jupiter's NELCs has told me he will be playing Scapewish in Edison, so you won't be the only Nic Fitter in the room.

[Arianrhod]

While I personally will not be going, Jesse Adams who you probably know from Jupiter's NELCs has told me he will be playing Scapewish in Edison, so you won't be the only Nic Fitter in the room.

Yeah, Jesse's been asking me a few questions on facebook about it. Hopefully the pairings are kind to him -- he's skilled enough that he should be able to go deep as long as he doesn't hit too much combo.

[MrIggins]

Yeah, Jesse's been asking me a few questions on facebook about it. Hopefully the pairings are kind to him -- he's skilled enough that he should be able to go deep as long as he doesn't hit too much combo.

Agreed. Will you be on Scapewish or Rector this weekend?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Speaking of Storm, I remembered something I've heard in regards to combo archetypes: that their 75 is pretty much set in stone. From what I understand, this is to optimize their chance of winning as soon as possible.

After a brief look through the TES thread, I also realized that the later an archetype intends to win, the more flexibility it has in terms of card choice. This is why Nic Fit has such variety compared to other non-Nic Fit archetypes: it plans to grind games out until they can drop a bomb and beat face.

[Zombie]

There's a big difference between engine decks and piece decks. Fast engine decks are likely to be pretty homogenic, especially in the maindeck. Engine decks also can't board heavily without sabotaging themselves. TES is an extreme example - as fast as possible while having protection with a million engines and some outs from a Wishboard, and a lot of that speed predicated on having the best Ad Nauseams in the format. That's a lot of restrictions already in the mission statement. In contrast, ANT is a bit less defined, with people preferring different amounts of cantrips and disruption.

Piece-based decks like Twin, Painter, Hulk variants and of course everyone's "favourite" retarded baby Show and Tell can have a lot more variation because they just have to find a couple cards to win.

[Arianrhod]

Agreed. Will you be on Scapewish or Rector this weekend?

Rector

[caggii]

Sam beat me to it. The muppet crew will be in Edison and while i was going to play scapewish Jesse wanted to play it so i took my list and give it to him. I blame this blizzard on my debating playing a fair deck =).

[sherko7]

After playtesting on Cockatrice a bit, I'm tempted to play Hypnotic Spectre on the G/B list. Thoughts?:laugh:

I'm currently packing Vampire Nighthawk, and although he's underwhelming on most matches, it does help with:
1) BURN, Affinity, Goblins, whatever fast aggro deck.
2) It can randomly defend against Emrakul (given you have enough shit to sac to Annihilator)
3) Eats removal
4) Puts you in a better position against other late-game decks. Those few additional life you net early on can really add up.

Again, I have not had plenty of games playing this deck yet. I have about 10% of the deck left to build to have it on paper, but I've been playing the different versions in Cockatrice (mostly P. Fire and G/B lists). I'm really liking the G/B list better at the moment though. And I just love Prime Time into double Treetop Village against Miracles LOL.:laugh:


Also, props to kabards for: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4315 :tongue:

[Tao]

I was thinking that Living Wish could be great in Rector versions. A wishboard like this:

- Veteran Explorer
- Academy Rector
- Phyrexian Tower
- Karakas
- Removal (Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder or Maze of Ith)
- Fattie (Yosei, Sigarda, Titan or Wurmcoil)
- Yard hate effect (Bojuka Bog, Scavenging Ooze)
- Disenchant effect (Acidic Slime, Qasali, Wickerbough)
- Anti Combo effect (Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist)

would look pretty strong imo.

[TheArchitect]

@sherko

I think removal eating aggressive 3 drops don't really have a place in a control deck like nic fit. We'd need a really high threat density to make them worthwhile. If you are looking for some good cards to apply pressure I'd recommend some combination of thrun, wolfir silver heart, kodama of the north tree and garruk 2.0 or 3.0. They are a threat but aren't as soft to removal so it's ok to just have a few of them.

If you want the life gain too just add more thragtusks.

[sherko7]

@sherko

I think removal eating aggressive 3 drops don't really have a place in a control deck like nic fit. We'd need a really high threat density to make them worthwhile. If you are looking for some good cards to apply pressure I'd recommend some combination of thrun, wolfir silver heart, kodama of the north tree and garruk 2.0 or 3.0. They are a threat but aren't as soft to removal so it's ok to just have a few of them.

If you want the life gain too just add more thragtusks.

Well in Vampire Nighthawk's defense it sort of acts as a removal option as well (Deathtouch). Life isn't the only factor, and I just feel like having access to a low CMC threat/utility in G/B (with evasion!) will help a lot in fighting the more aggressive decks. I mean don't get me wrong, aggressive aggro decks aren't much of a problem with Nic Fit. Problems occur when we fail to draw the right cards, and I don't think adding in a 4th Deed and 2 more Pulses/Decays would help that much (especially against U/R Delver, Burn which are pretty prevalent in our meta).

Kodama though, is something I have not tried... :smile: Still would look like Garruk PH would make a better option than this guy though. Lemme try that out!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Just thought of some interesting anti-SnT tech for Nic Fit, but would like some feedback in regards to how effective it would be.

The package, post board, would look like this:
X Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fierce Empath
1 Angel of Despair

Essentially, you'd GSZ for the Empath, which in turn tutors the Angel to your hand. The obvious downside to this is that, well, it costs a whopping four mana for such a splashable answer to a combo. Thoughts?

[TheArchitect]

Just thought of some interesting anti-SnT tech for Nic Fit, but would like some feedback in regards to how effective it would be.

The package, post board, would look like this:
X Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fierce Empath
1 Angel of Despair

Essentially, you'd GSZ for the Empath, which in turn tutors the Angel to your hand. The obvious downside to this is that, well, it costs a whopping four mana for such a splashable answer to a combo. Thoughts?

Thats not a bad idea. Ive played the angel in rector before. But what happens when you tutor for a thing to put into play on a S&T (happens when you go Etutor>O-ring too), they will either just cast sneak, or wait till they have 2 S&T. Cast one and let you get your angel out, while they just put a land or nothing out, then drop the 2nd show into Emrakul. I dont play BUG, but if I did I would want 3-4 FoW and 2-3 other counters in the SB. That, along with therapies and any other general combo hate should be enough to fight S&T.



Well in Vampire Nighthawk's defense it sort of acts as a removal option as well (Deathtouch). Life isn't the only factor, and I just feel like having access to a low CMC threat/utility in G/B (with evasion!) will help a lot in fighting the more aggressive decks. I mean don't get me wrong, aggressive aggro decks aren't much of a problem with Nic Fit. Problems occur when we fail to draw the right cards, and I don't think adding in a 4th Deed and 2 more Pulses/Decays would help that much (especially against U/R Delver, Burn which are pretty prevalent in our meta).

Kodama though, is something I have not tried... :smile: Still would look like Garruk PH would make a better option than this guy though. Lemme try that out!

I agree that prime hunter is better than kodama, but its an option. If you want help against aggro decks, you can run 2 maindeck damnations like I use. Kitchen finks also seems better than nighthawk. I just dont think that card does

[slikwilly]

Just thought of some interesting anti-SnT tech for Nic Fit, but would like some feedback in regards to how effective it would be.

The package, post board, would look like this:
X Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fierce Empath
1 Angel of Despair

Essentially, you'd GSZ for the Empath, which in turn tutors the Angel to your hand. The obvious downside to this is that, well, it costs a whopping four mana for such a splashable answer to a combo. Thoughts?

Too slow, but Eladamri's Call does give me the occasional hijinks with Show & Tell...

[Greenpoe]

Thats not a bad idea. Ive played the angel in rector before. But what happens when you tutor for a thing to put into play on a S&T (happens when you go Etutor>O-ring too), they will either just cast sneak, or wait till they have 2 S&T. Cast one and let you get your angel out, while they just put a land or nothing out, then drop the 2nd show into Emrakul. I dont play BUG, but if I did I would want 3-4 FoW and 2-3 other counters in the SB. That, along with therapies and any other general combo hate should be enough to fight S&T.

Then again if you suspect they'll do this, you can just do the same (put a land in), and if both players are aware of this play, you'll still have a 50/50 shot of it working, at least. Unless they have 2x S&T targets too.

[Qweerios]

Well in Vampire Nighthawk's defense it sort of acts as a removal option as well (Deathtouch). Life isn't the only factor, and I just feel like having access to a low CMC threat/utility in G/B (with evasion!) will help a lot in fighting the more aggressive decks. I mean don't get me wrong, aggressive aggro decks aren't much of a problem with Nic Fit. Problems occur when we fail to draw the right cards, and I don't think adding in a 4th Deed and 2 more Pulses/Decays would help that much (especially against U/R Delver, Burn which are pretty prevalent in our meta).

I will never say this enough: non-green creatures that cannot be tutored have no space in Nic Fit, there are very little exceptions to that rule. Some might argue that Baneslayer Angel and Olivia Voldaren have a place in their deck but that's just fantasy from where I stand. If you are having issues with U/R Delver, by all means, stick to the green alternatives. When I was having issues with that deck (some 180 pages back), I tried a singleton Sporecap Spider in my SB. Other traditional means of beating red decks include:

Scavenging Ooze
Selkie Hedge-Mage
Kitchen Finks
Loxodon Hierarch
Obstinate Baloth
Thragtusk


I usualy beat burn decks with only an Ooze and a Thragtusk nowadays but if my meta was infested, I would definitely re-include one of the above options to my SB. You don't really need more than that to nail the matchup though. Decay is also a very good tool in that matchup since it kills all of their threats including Sulfuric Vortex regardless of how many counters they are holding. The 4th Deed should be part of your 75. I used to play 3 Deeds main and 1 side but now, I never playless than 4 Deeds main. The reason why Nic Fit was ever a DtB is because it can blow up Deeds without any drawbacks, when Deed is a good card in the meta, Nic Fit is a DtB. Most other removal spells in your deck are merely speed bumps to buy time for the big D (pun intended).

-Regarding the "core" of Nic Fit, I have played multiple successful lists that only had 2 copies of Bayou and Forest. When building a Nic Fit manabase, prioritize Fetchlands over Duals (5-7) and Basics (6-7), they build a much stronger manabase and offer critical shuffle effects. Play no less than 7, and preferably 8-9. My prefered formula for 3colored lists is 6 duals, 6 basics, 8 fetches, 2-3 utility lands. The dual count should be higher in lists containing cards with double colored mana.

-Concerning the Angel/Empath answer to SnT, it has been part of the last 2 Nic Fit lists I have played and posted results with. The goal of playing Angel mainboard was exactly to fight back SnT decks via the Empath package already present in the deck. this is one of our only ways of beating SnT during G1. Coupled with additional discard and a couple O-Rings in the SB, I have had results comparable with BUG Fit where I bring Negates out of the board. Also, note that when an Angel has been tutored via Empath against a SnT player holding 2 SnT, the mind game is in your favor. I suggest quickly putting a non-Angel card from your hand in play at the sight of the first SnT in the advent that your opponent knows you are holding an Angel. However, it probaby won't work twice... :P

-The reasons to splash white are very narrow but very relevant. Here's why you should splash white in a GB Nic Fit deck:

1)Gaddock Teeg: maindeck answer to decks we cannot deal with pre-board. The most impactful card a deck containing 4 GSZ could have even if it mostly feels like garbage.

2)Sigarda, Host of Herons: The safest way to close out a game. Flying is a rare ability in any Nic Fit deck and the fact that it is tutorable and nearly impossible to remove is also a big plus.

3)Vindicate: Adds a much needed dimension to Maelstrom Pulse, it hits lands. Some lands such as Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, Riptide Laboratory, and Karakas are often brick walls that bring the game to a full stop until we succumb or time is called. Between squeezing a Wasteland, Dust Bowl, or an Acidic Slime, exchanging Pulses for Vindicates is by far the best option for the purpose of land destruction.

Qasali Pridemage is not a reason to splash as he is mostly redundant. Nic Fit already packs enough all-purpose removal as it is. While I have managed to loop it with Sun Titan before, it is more often a bad topdeck than a craved silver bullet.

@Tao,

For having testing Living Wish in Nic Fit, I can safely tell you that they don't work together, here's why:

-Wish overlaps with GSZ in purpose
-Wish eats up a lot of SB space that the GSZ package can already cover well
-Wish is slow and the silver bullets can be countered with no more possibilities of wishing for them again
-The advantages of Wish (non-green creature, and land) are marginal compared to the restrictions it puts on deck building

[Tao]

@Tao,

For having testing Living Wish in Nic Fit, I can safely tell you that they don't work together, here's why:

-Wish overlaps with GSZ in purpose
-Wish eats up a lot of SB space that the GSZ package can already cover well
-Wish is slow and the silver bullets can be countered with no more possibilities of wishing for them again
-The advantages of Wish (non-green creature, and land) are marginal compared to the restrictions it puts on deck building

1: Overlapping sounds bad. You could also say complement or support. They do similar things, but not the same. GSZ can't deal with Emrakul, can't be combo hate G1. And the fact that both can be Explorer or threat that is not bad per se because you want these things to be done anyway, you like that effect, that is is why you play them.
2: Yep, that is a severe disadvantage. Burning Wish is one reason why I do not like Scapewish that much.
3. It can be a bit slow, that is true. But it is also n additional way to get an Exporer so it is okay in slow draws. For Countermagic: Karakas can't be countered and the creatures can be brought back with Rector/Nightmare or GSZ/Witness. And Therapy can snipe Counterspells. Countermagic is the least problem for Rector versions.

4/summary:
these are the advantages:
- bouncing Emrakul G1, Combo hate in G1, Yard hate in G1
- flexibility
- a way to tutor for Rector
- 2 of the 4 slots for Wish are free because you can replace Starved Rusalka and an Explorer. That creates a higher threat density.

these are the disadvantages:
- less SB cards
- can be slow

[sherko7]

Hmmm, seems Kitchen Finks it is then. Then main problem I'm having with Thragtusk is during those slow hands... Besides, I only have Eternal Witness as my 3 drop so 1 Kitchen Finks MD should be a fit!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@Qweerios: Would you consider a Batterskull a "non-green non-tutorable creature" in a BUG list? The reason I'm running it is to A) make Thrun, the Last Troll insane and B) turn all my leftover utility creatures into bombs, but I am having trouble finding a good number for my list.

[Qweerios]

@Qweerios: Would you consider a Batterskull a "non-green non-tutorable creature" in a BUG list? The reason I'm running it is to A) make Thrun, the Last Troll insane and B) turn all my leftover utility creatures into bombs, but I am having trouble finding a good number for my list.

I've contemplated Batterskull for a while and it is a fine card for Nic Fit. I wouldn't play more than 1 though because having multiples becomes bothersome and it isn't an integral part of the deck. It is one of those cards like Planeswalkers that are good in certain matchups when you happen to stumble upon them, and those tend to be the cards that get cut first when a list becomes tight. Besides, Thragtusk provides similar effects and can be GSZ'd so I would probably play additional Thragtusks before any Batterskulls for the sake of consistency.

[Philipp2293]

I won a small local tourney with Rector today. As I was a little bit disappointed with Punishing Nic Fit lately I switched to Rector which I hadn't touched for at least 6 months.

I played Aris linked list -1 Master of the Wild Hunt + 1 Garruk Relentless MD and -1 Garruk Relentless - 1 Deathgrip - 1 Extirpate + 3 Abrupt Decay SB (expected quite a few tempo decks so I wanted some cheap removal). The deck felt insanely powerful, and I didn't even get to start Recycle action (Yosei - Nightmare lock was the most unfair thing today). Especially the matches against BUG und Jund were brutal, for example against Jund: Sigarda -> scoop. G2 -> GSZ -> Sigarda -> Scoop.

Also Leyline was really nice to have, I'm currently looking for more slots in the SB for it. Thanks to everyone for the good work.

[CRich3]

I too played Rector Fit in a local tournament today. I went 3-1 loosing to belcher (1-2). I think i am satisfied with my current version and will be taking this to SCG Cincy. Based mainly of Arianrhod's list, here are my changes.

-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Baneslayer Angel
+1 Thrun
=60 cards.

MY SB:

3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Abrupt Deay
2x Memoricide
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Restoraton Angel
1x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Choke
1x Faith's Fetters

[nottz]

Good to hear cRich. That's a pretty interesting sideboard. I was curious if the choke ever came in handy and what the resto angel is for?

[sherko7]

Good to hear cRich. That's a pretty interesting sideboard. I was curious if the choke ever came in handy and what the resto angel is for?

Can anyone give me a decent Rector list without the MONEY enchantments? Moat and The Abyss/Nether Void? I managed to pickup some NM Academy Rectors at a really good price and since my GB list is almost done anyway might as well plan to splash :) I am not spending 300 USD on that MOAT. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[HoneyT]

Can anyone give me a decent Rector list without the MONEY enchantments? Moat and The Abyss/Nether Void? I managed to pickup some NM Academy Rectors at a really good price and since my GB list is almost done anyway might as well plan to splash :) I am not spending 300 USD on that MOAT. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I'm sure we can come up with budget replacements or another semi-reasonable list, but at that point why are you even trying to play a Rector version? The biggest pull to playing Rector is the ability to tutor up all those powerful (expensive) enchantments. There is no real replacement for them. At that point you're watering down the Rector deck when you could be playing a more tuned and fully powered deck with any other given version.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hmm . . . I think I might be going insane, because I'm considering putting Dinrova Horror in my 60/15 BUG list in place of Angel of Despair.

Reasons to include both:
1. Tutorable with Empath (also going into the SB)
2. EtB permanent removal helps against SnT decks.

Reasons to include Horror:
1. It's in my colors, so I can actually hardcast it if in a desperate situation (or better yet, loop it with Two Towers).
2. It's 1 CMC less.
3. It hits Ulamog (for Turbo Eldrazi Only)

Reasons to include Angel:
1. It has evasion.
2. Faster clock (1 turn faster based on clear board with 20 life).
3. It guarantees that whatever you hit will hit the bin, regardless of player handsize.

[marumari]

Is Choke better than Tsunami (or Boiling Seas, I guess)? I get that it's one mana less and has a somewhat more lasting effect, but against combo decks, they only tap out once and it essentially requires them to counter it, unlike Choke.

[Arianrhod]

I'm sure we can come up with budget replacements or another semi-reasonable list, but at that point why are you even trying to play a Rector version? The biggest pull to playing Rector is the ability to tutor up all those powerful (expensive) enchantments. There is no real replacement for them. At that point you're watering down the Rector deck when you could be playing a more tuned and fully powered deck with any other given version.

Eh. If someone wants to build Rector but doesn't have Moat and Nether Void, that's fine -- but I would then recommend to that person in the strongest possible terms that they use their winnings with the deck to work towards those two cards, because they add a ton to the deck.

-----------

Before I get into the details of what happened at Edison playing-wise, I wanted to quickly notify you all that Steve had his bag stolen at Edison, including his Rector deck which was inside. So, if you see someone selling Japanese Foil Therapies, Vindicate, Green Suns, Sigarda, Sun Titan, and Rectors, PLEASE let me know so I can try to alert the authorities. I'm not even really sure how I could -prove- it beyond a shadow of a doubt such that even we found the guy, we could get Steve his stuff back, but I feel like if it's within my power to try, I should. All I can hope is that the thief is stupid and tries to sell them as a lot on eBay or something. Anyway, please, please, please keep your eyes out, guys. As it stands, barring a miracle where we can get his stuff back, he's going to have to quit the game -- the only cards he owns to his name now are his two foil Tops =(

-----------

Now, as for the details of the event:

My maindeck stayed exactly the same as my signature, so I'm not going to bother listing that. My sideboard for the event was as follows:


3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Nether Void
1 Humility
1 Karn Liberated
1 Angel of Despair
1 Harmonic Sliver


The Karn and Angel slots were originally the two Garruk Relentless slots, and at one point were in serious contention of being Necrotic Sliver. I wanted those slots to be something good vs both Show and Tell-based decks -and- vs "fair" decks like Jund -- the really grindy attritiony games that tend to go long, where Recycle isn't an option.

We all stayed at my friend Timur (Zirath on here)'s house, which ended up being packed with something approaching 20 magic players from the Central PA, NYC, and Ithaca playgroups. Our groupthink agreed that combo was going to be the big story at Edison, so we loaded up appropriately, although some of us (Ning and Timur, in particular) opted to be the "bad guy," and jammed combo.

Round one I got paired up against Timur, of course. We saw the pairing board and we were both just like, really? He was playing Permit Hermit / Oops all spells / whatever the fuck that deck is being called.

Game one I mull for Therapy, because I know it's the only chance I have at all. I go down to 3 until I hit one, keeping GSZ, Therapy, Phyrexian Tower. He probes me and bricks. I draw another Therapy. Deck be trollin'. He bricks for another turn, and I rip a swamp off the top. He's played out an LED, because I like to name that and he wanted to protect it. So, I called Infernal Tutor instead. I don't have my notes with me, so I don't remember what I saw, but I know it wasn't good for him. Moral of the story, I ended up therapying him like 6 times while beating slowly with X/1s. Eventually Thragtusk came down and cleaned up. His draw steps for the game included Azami, Narcomoeba, Dread Return, and Lab Maniac. I got pretty fucking stupid lucky here.

Game two I Mindbreaked his Spy, and then Rectored into Nether Void. He died quickly.

Round two was against Miracles. I'm pretty sure I put the kid on lifetilt. Once I had an appropriate setup (aka, an active Top with him not having Counterbalance in play), I grabbed Recycle and started going nuts. I drew something like 20 cards and locked him out with Yosei/Nightmare. This was a classic case of my opponent being confused by what Recycle does and why it is in the deck, and then by the end of the match, him just sitting there in a daze wondering how exactly that card is fair.

Game one took something approximating 35 or 40 minutes. We both played briskly in game two, but there was no way for either of us to end it in time. I was going to win in a few more turns, and if I'd been a little more aggressive I might have got there --- or I might have lost. I learned from my matchup vs Joey Manner at Jupiter about what happens when you go too aggressive. I always made sure to keep a Deed in play with at least two mana to crack it to kill a RIP. He'd tutored for Helm some time previously, and both of my Therapies were exiled already, so I couldn't make him discard it. Winning 1-0-1 is much better than drawing 1-1-1.

Round 3 was against High Tide. Game one he did what he does. Game two he misplayed very slightly while attempting to go off, and gave me two turns. I Therapied out both of his counterspells (force and pact), and then proceeded to drop Nether Void. Game three I mulled to 5, keeping 3 lands, Sakura-Tribe, and Cranial Extraction. He went off turn 3, before I could cast it. I Spiraled into a Mindbreak Trap at one point, and used it on a Meditate with him having 4ish cards in hand, hoping that he was land-heavy....but he Brainstormed into Force in response, and there went there. He went off turn 3 all three games, and I never hit a Mindbreak in my opening hand that I could use to try to stop him from going off, nor did I draw into any Carpet of Flowers in any game, nor did I hit a Therapy in game 3 on any of my hands.

AKA: this is karma for my good luck in beating Timur game one on a mull to 3.

Round 4 was against Next Level Thresh. If you're not familiar with the deck, it's basically "big RUG." It runs Stifle and Waste, but not Delver or Goose. Instead, it goes for Goyf, Clique, Jace, and Bolt/Snap-bolt. It also runs Grim Lavamancer. It's a pretty solid choice in the meta right now, since it's capable of going late if it has to (unlike RUG), but still has a respectable amount of pressure and countermagic vs combo.

Game one I Fetters his Jace and we both flood out. I eventually land Sun Titan and he scoops. Game two he goes Volc->Ponder. I go Bayou->Carpet. Second main, use Carpet mana to play Carpet. Things got arbitrarily stupid from there. Sigarda eventually cleaned up, after a Baneslayer did some work.

Round 5 is vs Jund. First time actually playing against it with Rector. Game one goes stupid long, and he draws into all 4 Groves, which means he can literally Fire away all of my creatures (he successfully Fires a Sun Titan, although it takes him a ton to do it). Eventually Sigarda kills him. Game two also goes stupid long, and he hits multiple discard spells into double Liliana. I get a little mana fucked as he hits Loam + Wasteland, and I fail to off an Explorer despite my best efforts (including Rusalka). I realize somewhere in the middle of the game that I derped and forgot to bring in my Leylines. We have 7 minutes for game 3, so we're both in turbofast mode. I make a critical error here due to the rush: I deploy a Deed against his board without the mana to activate it. This is a lesson I've learned countless times against decks like Jund and Maverick, and in my haste to try to get the game in under 7 minutes, I just fucked myself. He untapped and Pulsed it, and proceeded to kill me really quick (he had a highly aggro start, with double Goyf and double Bob). I managed to clear his board, but he ripped a Punishing Fire off the top and was able to use it to get me for the last few points of my life before I could untap and drop Angel of Despair to kill his Grove.

R6 I'm tilted, and I proceed to play against some turd with a Naruto TCG playmat, which pisses me off even more. He's on Death and Taxes, which is usually a fine matchup....but his deck drew like jesus tapdancing christ, and I died by the skin of my teeth.

At this point, I'm 3-3, as is everyone else in my car (except for poo Phil, who was 2-2-2. awkward), so we all decide to drop and start the drive home. Since we did that, we got home at 9:30, as opposed to the 12:30 if we'd played out the last 3 rounds. Even if we'd won out, that wouldn't have been worth the $50.

So...yeah.

Rector is insanely well positioned right now -- every bit as well positioned as Scapewish was a few months ago, when Rector fell off. Sigarda is strictly better than Jund, but I do think that we need another trump or two in that matchup, just because I fully expect them to start sideboarding Virtue's Ruin or Perish within the next few months. Also, Liliana of the Veil is still a skank. Otherwise, the only matches I lost were because I can't stop GOT ALL DEEZ / mulls to 5 / not drawing hate. Mindbreak Trap seems really good, although it's only great vs High Tide if you combine it with other disruption.

The Karn and Angel slots are kind of meh. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of things that are good vs Show and Tell decks -and- vs grindy/attritiony decks. I boarded the Karn/Angel in vs Miracles and Jund, and never cast them / never Empathed for the Angel.

Moving forward, I'll probably end up cutting the Master of the Wild Hunt, well aware that I've been raving about him lately. I think I'm going to opt for the 4th Green Sun, finally. Rector's been okay without it, but I feel like I want a little more consistency, especially with getting and setting off Rectors, and the 4th Green Sun will go a long way towards that. It also gives us more ways to hit Sigarda vs Jund, for example, which is important.

[jbone2016]

Hmm . . . I think I might be going insane, because I'm considering putting Dinrova Horror in my 60/15 BUG list in place of Angel of Despair.

Reasons to include both:
1. Tutorable with Empath (also going into the SB)
2. EtB permanent removal helps against SnT decks.

Reasons to include Horror:
1. It's in my colors, so I can actually hardcast it if in a desperate situation (or better yet, loop it with Two Towers).
2. It's 1 CMC less.
3. It hits Ulamog (for Turbo Eldrazi Only)

Reasons to include Angel:
1. It has evasion.
2. Faster clock (1 turn faster based on clear board with 20 life).
3. It guarantees that whatever you hit will hit the bin, regardless of player handsize.

I had been thinking about this too. Seems awesome in a BuG list. Messes with an empty handed with batterskull as well.

[jbone2016]

Before I get into the details of what happened at Edison playing-wise, I wanted to quickly notify you all that Steve had his bag stolen at Edison, including his Rector deck which was inside. So, if you see someone selling Japanese Foil Therapies, Vindicate, Green Suns, Sigarda, Sun Titan, and Rectors, PLEASE let me know so I can try to alert the authorities. I'm not even really sure how I could -prove- it beyond a shadow of a doubt such that even we found the guy, we could get Steve his stuff back, but I feel like if it's within my power to try, I should. All I can hope is that the thief is stupid and tries to sell them as a lot on eBay or something. Anyway, please, please, please keep your eyes out, guys. As it stands, barring a miracle where we can get his stuff back, he's going to have to quit the game -- the only cards he owns to his name now are his two foil Tops =(

-----------


Seems like there was a lot of theft at Edison this weekend. More then I remember at any Starcity event.

[Arianrhod]

Seems like there was a lot of theft at Edison this weekend. More then I remember at any Starcity event.

Which is both hilarious and disturbing, because they had two security guards - one posted at the door and the other wandering the event.

[Qweerios]

Moving forward, I'll probably end up cutting the Master of the Wild Hunt, well aware that I've been raving about him lately. I think I'm going to opt for the 4th Green Sun, finally. Rector's been okay without it, but I feel like I want a little more consistency, especially with getting and setting off Rectors, and the 4th Green Sun will go a long way towards that. It also gives us more ways to hit Sigarda vs Jund, for example, which is important.

200 pages later... The epiphany!

On the topic of Punishing Jund, I playtested against it for a good 20+ matches (3-4 hours) with Stoneblade and BGW Nic Fit. When poorly boarded, Blade Control tends to win most of the games (8 out of 9). When appropriately boarded Jund tends to beat Blade Control most of the time (8 out of 9). When Nic Fit shows up, the Jund player tends to give up completely and go home most of the time (10 out of 10). Laying down an explorer seems to be all you need to do to take down Jund. Here's the list I used:


Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Angel of Despair
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Oblivion Ring


During postboard games I would take out 3 Thoughtseize and 1 Teeg for 1 Angel, 1 Decay, and 2 Pulse.

Also, for this particular list, I am down to very detailed tweaks and would like to hear what people think about taking away the 3rd Forest in favor of the 3rd Bayou, and removing Grave Titan altogether in favor of maindeck Angel of Despair. I don't think the 3rd basic Forest is required and Bayou probably offers more consistency to the deck. Being stuck on basics forests and plains when holding Therapy and Deed can be troublesome, much more than the casual Wasteland but perhaps there is more to it. As for Grave Titan, I find him underwhelming when I have access to Thragtusk. Both creatures have similar purposes because they are both resilient, offer great value, loop well with the two towers and more. Thragtusk, however, costs less, is more accessible, survives sweepers, and gaining life is more valuable than producing chump blockers in most cases. Angel of Despair is all-around good with a valuable CiP effect, good synergy with the two towers, and a sizeable flying body which is not to be overlooked. She is also an out to SnT decks pre-board and a better Jace puncher than Grave Titan (which is what I think he was there for to begin with). Removing Titan in favor of Angel also opens up an additional SB slot.


@Sherko7,

Look at my sig, there is a Rector Fit version there that doesn't use Moat. You can also easely substitute Nether Void for Leyline of Sanctity and be just fine. I never liked Moat in the Rector versions to begin with because:
a) we already have access to Deed at that point, and;
b) matchups affected by Moat are often largely in our favor to begin with.

@EpicLevelCommoner,

Dinrova Horror is actualy not a bad idea. It is indeed a tool against SnT decks for BUG Fit, however, I am afraid it is underpowered for every other situation.

[Kich867]

Seems like there was a lot of theft at Edison this weekend. More then I remember at any Starcity event.

There was at least 4 decks off the top of my head that I know were stolen. I kept my bag between my legs or on my back or in my arms while I was sitting the entire event. Mostly as a pillow, because I was tired as shit and I played EIGHT FUCKING COMBO DECKS.

In any event, I'll be ordering what I need for Junk-Fit as well as stuff for a brewy, bad, amazingly awesome combo deck that I thought up of the same colors, tonight.

Qweerios I like your JunkFit list, would you mind telling me what you name VS TES/Ant with Memoricide? Do you just blow out their ad nauseam? And what exactly is the wall of blossoms for? It cantrips which is nice but, I'm wondering if there isn't something better in that slot?

[Qweerios]

Qweerios I like your JunkFit list, would you mind telling me what you name VS TES/Ant with Memoricide? Do you just blow out their ad nauseam? And what exactly is the wall of blossoms for? It cantrips which is nice but, I'm wondering if there isn't something better in that slot?

There is no specific targets for Memoricide against storm combos because it will largely depend on how your first 1-3 turns went with the discard spells. Sometimes I will use it as an additional discard (naming something I know they have in hand) or I will get rid of win conditions (Tendrils if I am holding a Deed or have a sizeable board), or just take away whatever card could be topdecked to lose at that point (Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames, Ad Nauseam).

Wall of Blossoms is an additional piece of synergy to the deck (Etermal Witness' little brother). Having something valuable to play or GSZ for Therapy flashbacks when you don't want to ramp your opponent is valuable. It also buys a surprising amount of time against a lot of decks and is amongst my top2 cards to bring back with Sun Titan (Deed and Wall). When your hand is high in lands, it will allow you to hold back on your Deed until your opponent overextends while you passively drop lands. When your hand is low on lands, it will usualy buy enough time and dig far enough to find more. When you are fighting against Combo or Control he simply cantrips and allows you the second therapy use. It basicaly plays like Coiling Oracle but it is much easier to cast and while it doesn't give you the opportunity to ramp, it actualy has a body that matters at that point in the game.

[Arianrhod]

200 pages later... The epiphany!



Hey now, we've both been right about one thing -- I had Liliana and you have GSZ. We're tied :P

Also, /barn regarding Memoricide targets. It really depends on the situation and their specific lists against decks like ANT and TES. It's not like High Tide where you slam it on Time Spiral and they scoop.

[kabards]

There was at least 4 decks off the top of my head that I know were stolen. I kept my bag between my legs or on my back or in my arms while I was sitting the entire event. Mostly as a pillow, because I was tired as shit and I played EIGHT FUCKING COMBO DECKS.

In any event, I'll be ordering what I need for Junk-Fit as well as stuff for a brewy, bad, amazingly awesome combo deck that I thought up of the same colors, tonight.

Qweerios I like your JunkFit list, would you mind telling me what you name VS TES/Ant with Memoricide? Do you just blow out their ad nauseam? And what exactly is the wall of blossoms for? It cantrips which is nice but, I'm wondering if there isn't something better in that slot?

for me if i did't hit a therapy i would probably name Infernal Tutor

[Blastoderm]

for me if i did't hit a therapy i would probably name Infernal Tutor

I name infernal tutor most of the time so they can't go grab ad nauseam.

[sherko7]

So I know the answer to this might be a few pages back, but I might have read most, if not all of the thread from 150 onwards and don't remember but how do you go insane with Recycle? Is it as simple as putting it into play and trying to "play" shitload of cards? Or is there more to it than that? :eyebrow:

[vilnico]

The Karn and Angel slots are kind of meh. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of things that are good vs Show and Tell decks -and- vs grindy/attritiony decks. I boarded the Karn/Angel in vs Miracles and Jund, and never cast them / never Empathed for the Angel.

First thanks for your feedback in Edison, very appreciable.
Just one question on your list, have you ever been regretting not being able to decay a DRS preventing you to trigger Rector ?

Hope your buddy will get his cards back :(

About the quote, would not a mix of Humility and additional Fetters better than Karn/Angel in this role ?

By the way, technical question on S&T resolution. Can our Faith's Fetters enchant their stupid thing ? In extenso, can Sneak Attack be triggered at that moment before Fetters becomes fully active ?

@sherko: With Top on the board, Recycle is just crazy. All the more if you have a few cabal Therapies in graveyard. And indeed all you have to do is "play" cards.

[XdeckX]

Regarding Faith's fetters: you cannot fetters the card your opponent puts into play since the fetters needs a target to enchant before it enters play.

[sherko7]

OK so finally by Thursday my BG list will be "complete"... Well kinda, I added in some fillers that seem to be working (in a way) :O

3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm


I'm liking really liking Wall of Blossoms, it is decent in most matchups - stalls versus aggro and another warm body to sac to Therapy against combo/control. Sakura-Tribe Elder is there to provide some other means of ramp. I will most likely be cutting either one of those 2 or 1 of them completely in favor of some Planeswalkers or 1 more Thragtusk. Would also like to make room for some Innocent Blood, watcha think? :)

@Recycle: Time to test that on Cockatrice. I'm really hoping the GB version can fight off well against our current meta. That way I can slowly invest on the Rector build without suddenly splurging again. Also, really want that 4th Bayou but its selling like hotcakes everywhere here, and the prices are getting steeper.

[Tao]

So I know the answer to this might be a few pages back, but I might have read most, if not all of the thread from 150 onwards and don't remember but how do you go insane with Recycle? Is it as simple as putting it into play and trying to "play" shitload of cards? Or is there more to it than that? :eyebrow:

Nothing more to it. If you managed to stabilize the board you can set it up and start drawing.

Think of it this way: Every card you play does now the same thing as before except it has "when you play this, draw a card" written on it. That is the difference between Silvergill Adept and Coral Merfolk. It spirals quickly.

Here are a few things to remember on Recycle:

- playing lands will draw you a card
- Cabal Therapy Flashback and Sensei's Divining Top are the deck's ways to cheat on the "2 hand cards" rule which is a nice bonus but usually not overly important. But against Hymn to Tourach or double Stifle (on Recycle trigger) it is very important because they might lock you out of the game and a Therapy in the Graveyard or a Top in play gets around these threats.

[TerribleTim68]

Seems like there was a lot of theft at Edison this weekend. More then I remember at any Starcity event.There was at least 4 decks off the top of my head that I know were stolen. I kept my bag between my legs or on my back or in my arms while I was sitting the entire event. . .

So the best piece of advice I EVER got was from a head judge at a SCG Open. Place your backpack on the floor next to your chair and set your chair leg IN one (or both) of the straps. That way no one can grab the backpack on thier way by because it will just yank against the chair leg, instantly notifying you of what is happening. Just saying, keep it in mind next time. It's the best advice I can pass along. Everyone should know this trick. Pass it around.

[TerribleTim68]

. . .Here are a few things to remember on Recycle: . . .

And the biggest thing I forget is that part about "Max Hand Size". :tongue: Don't forget that part. It actually comes into play more often than you think. Just try to play smart and play your land for the turn AFTER you get Null Profusion/Recycle into play. That's the biggest part right there. If you can hold a land, you instantly have a draw spell right there.

The things you can do with Eternal Witness and a Null Profusion/Recycle in play are just wrong. :cool:

[slikwilly]

So the best piece of advice I EVER got was from a head judge at a SCG Open. Place your backpack on the floor next to your chair and set your chair leg IN one (or both) of the straps. That way no one can grab the backpack on thier way by because it will just yank against the chair leg, instantly notifying you of what is happening. Just saying, keep it in mind next time. It's the best advice I can pass along. Everyone should know this trick. Pass it around.

This works.

My suggestions:
1) I put my backpack on the floor between my feet and have one strap looped around one of my legs. It ain't going anywhere that way, and it's not exposed to people behind or on either side of you.
2) Backback is stowed FIRST. Then I pull out playmat and/or life pad. The LAST thing to do is pull out your deck box. People have been known to snag a box while you're riffling through your bag, so don't bring it out until you're ready to shuffle.
3) When packing up after the round, stow the deck FIRST.
4) If your attention is elsewhere then your deck is in your hands. Your friend comes up to talk? You're holding your deck.
5) Don't bring a lot with you. Your deck and maybe a small trade binder. Minimize your losses should you be a victim.

[lambert101]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/478686

Thoughts on the list? Trying to make punishing wish nic fit work. Got up to ten mts.

[picklock]

First post on the source. I've been lurking in this thread for a while now, figured I'd toss my list up here and see if I could get some feedback.

I've gone back and forth between nicfit bug and the classic junk colors. But however fun it was to slam a Consecrated Sphinx (Brainstorm for an answer... I BEG you), bug was only marginally better against combo so I'm currently at this:

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Fierce Empath
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Angel of Despair

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Path to Exile
1 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


My sideboard changes frequently since my meta tends to be in flux quite a bit but I generally manage to include 4 Natural Order and a Progenitus to be able to side in a fast wincon if I'm running tight on time.

Any thoughts? Is Sun Titan just better than any of my current bombs? I haven't seen DRS show up much at all in most lists, is he too small time for the deck?

[bosoxdave]

200 pages later... The epiphany!

On the topic of Punishing Jund, I playtested against it for a good 20+ matches (3-4 hours) with Stoneblade and BGW Nic Fit. When poorly boarded, Blade Control tends to win most of the games (8 out of 9). When appropriately boarded Jund tends to beat Blade Control most of the time (8 out of 9). When Nic Fit shows up, the Jund player tends to give up completely and go home most of the time (10 out of 10). Laying down an explorer seems to be all you need to do to take down Jund. Here's the list I used:


Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Angel of Despair
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Oblivion Ring


During postboard games I would take out 3 Thoughtseize and 1 Teeg for 1 Angel, 1 Decay, and 2 Pulse.

Also, for this particular list, I am down to very detailed tweaks and would like to hear what people think about taking away the 3rd Forest in favor of the 3rd Bayou, and removing Grave Titan altogether in favor of maindeck Angel of Despair. I don't think the 3rd basic Forest is required and Bayou probably offers more consistency to the deck. Being stuck on basics forests and plains when holding Therapy and Deed can be troublesome, much more than the casual Wasteland but perhaps there is more to it. As for Grave Titan, I find him underwhelming when I have access to Thragtusk. Both creatures have similar purposes because they are both resilient, offer great value, loop well with the two towers and more. Thragtusk, however, costs less, is more accessible, survives sweepers, and gaining life is more valuable than producing chump blockers in most cases. Angel of Despair is all-around good with a valuable CiP effect, good synergy with the two towers, and a sizeable flying body which is not to be overlooked. She is also an out to SnT decks pre-board and a better Jace puncher than Grave Titan (which is what I think he was there for to begin with). Removing Titan in favor of Angel also opens up an additional SB slot.



This is almost the same as my list, with just a few changes. My primary concern is my SB. What would you bring as a SB to a large event - GP/SCG Open - while still expecting a lot of combo? I am running 4 Cabal Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize, and 1 Duress main. I haven't been able to read the whole thread so far, but I do have a couple of questions, besides the SB.

1. Why run Grave Titan over almost any other 6 drop? I personally like Armada Wurm despite its lack of synergy with Pernicious Deed, not that Grave Titan has any better synergy there. I am willing to reconsider that slot, but I really don't like Grave Titan, plus the Wurm can be GSZ'ed. Angel of Despair is reasonable, but it seems to be outmatched for its goal with Vindicates, Deeds, Pulses and Decays.

2. It seems that this deck has a great MU against Jund/other fair decks without Thoughtseize. With the ease of dealing with permanents pretty much everywhere else, wouldn't Duress work fine in that slot? It lets you save the 2 life even if it isn't too relevant and still hit combo pieces and Planeswalkers (i.e. Jace). Right now the only reason I am running the Thoughtseizes in the main is because I assume there is a logical reason that an experienced pilot of this deck has for them, I am just curious what that is.

I know that there has been a lot of discussion on this, but I really, really like Liliana of the Veil as a 1 or 2 - of in the deck. She really shines with how quickly we can get to top deck mode and forcing other players to that point seems to be always in our advantage.

FWIW I am new to the deck, though not too new to Legacy and if I missed something in the last 50 or so pages, then please forgive me. This thread and the people in it are awesome with reasoned answers which is refreshing for an online forum.

[TheArchitect]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/478686

Thoughts on the list? Trying to make punishing wish nic fit work. Got up to ten mts.

I wanted it to work too. I tested this for a few hours against some of the common decks. It still shit stomps decks with lightning bolts (including the "new" URW tempo decks and jund). Still feels only a bit better than 50/50 with esper and junk, but I only played a few games against each.

List here:

25 lands - 10 mountains - 7 basics - 0 fetches ---- 61 cards total
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

4 Burning Wish
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scapeshift
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

SB:
2 Extirpate
1 Innocent Blood
2 Pyroblast
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Perish
1 Damnation
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games

My thoughts so far:
- I miss having 2-3 fetches. Having that shuffle was nice.
- Even in just the 12-15ish games I played, In 3 I won, I would not have won if volrath's stronghold wasn't in my deck. Its still good stuff.
- 1 scapeshift maindeck, seemed fine, but I would love to go to 2 if I could justifiy cutting another card, but I already want to get down to 60.
- How was 3 punishing fires?
- I thought about, but havent tried, cutting burning wish, doing a more traditional SB and just having 3 MD scapeshifts. Might be really bad, but idk.
- I'll test this a bit more, and unless I was just having a lucky streak, I think I'll play something like this at mythic this weekend.

[Qweerios]

1. Why run Grave Titan over almost any other 6 drop? I personally like Armada Wurm despite its lack of synergy with Pernicious Deed, not that Grave Titan has any better synergy there. I am willing to reconsider that slot, but I really don't like Grave Titan, plus the Wurm can be GSZ'ed. Angel of Despair is reasonable, but it seems to be outmatched for its goal with Vindicates, Deeds, Pulses and Decays.

Grave Titan isn't part of my list anymore. In my last post I suggested cutting him in favor of Angel of Despair. As for Armada Wurm, I was really psyched about him when he was spoiled but two unprotected 5/5 bodies is really underwhelming against most decks at 6-7 mana, perhaps if they were 6/6 or 7/7. The goal of Angel isn't for its Vindicate effect, its because it is big and evasive enough to finish a game and its EtB effect generates CA. Most high-end creatures in any Nic Fit deck have a recycling effect that will generate insurmountable CA when looped (Two Towers and Recurring Nightmare mainly). Grave Titan has that but it will also apply debilitating pressure on your opponent once it starts taping. You also get your value back post Deed with an attack phase.

2. It seems that this deck has a great MU against Jund/other fair decks without Thoughtseize. With the ease of dealing with permanents pretty much everywhere else, wouldn't Duress work fine in that slot? It lets you save the 2 life even if it isn't too relevant and still hit combo pieces and Planeswalkers (i.e. Jace). Right now the only reason I am running the Thoughtseizes in the main is because I assume there is a logical reason that an experienced pilot of this deck has for them, I am just curious what that is.

Thoughtseize will always be better than Duress because it will always hit something. Losing 2 life on turn 1 to remove a card is a good trade no matter the matchup (even burn). You can look at your deck as a whole and think "Well, I can answer permanents easely so I might as well skip that aspect of my discard spells if it's going to cost me life" but the reality is that you only have a limited amount of cards in your hand, and not all of them will work. Thoughtseizing a Bloodbraid Elf is much better than removing it at any point, especialy if all you are holding is an Abrupt Decay. Also, Thoughtseize gets sided out against almost every fair decks out there, I play them maindeck as added disruption for decks that will succumb to Ooze and/or Teeg during game 1.

I know that there has been a lot of discussion on this, but I really, really like Liliana of the Veil as a 1 or 2 - of in the deck. She really shines with how quickly we can get to top deck mode and forcing other players to that point seems to be always in our advantage.

Liliana is perfectly fine. However, there are other alternatives already availlable that are equaly as good if not better (Innocent Blood, Decay, Thoughtseize/IoK). I do miss her though against NO/Prog and Control decks. She is a tricky card to begin with and I think it is so because you can play her early but you actually don't want to tick her up until topdeck mode or with a Top where the deck truly shines. Playing a fast PW, using it once, and then forgeting about it for a while is very counter-intuitive even if it may be the right way to use her. She is also very good with Sun Titan and DRS can't exile Deeds and Lilies either.


I tweaked my SB for a tournament I will attend this saturday (I am not sure about Nic Fit or Esperblade yet) and it looks like this:


1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide
1 Tsunami
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Oblivion Ring


I went for additional Surgical effects and Crypt over Nihil Spellbombs because of the new Balustrad Spy deck (I am pretty sure it scoops to extracted Moebas or poped Crypt in resp to library mill). I also took out a Memoricide for a Tsunami. The SB is calculated to replace the worthless mainboard cards for every unfair matchup. Decay and Pulses are my main Thoughtseize/Teeg replacements for fair matchups but I am seriously considering Lilies again somewhere now. Removal in the form of permanents is definitely where you want to be with Nic Fit.

[Star|Scream]

I went for additional Surgical effects and Crypt over Nihil Spellbombs because of the new Balustrad Spy deck (I am pretty sure it scoops to extracted Moebas or poped Crypt in resp to library mill).

Just a note: When I played against this deck I tried to Slaughter Games a Narcomoeba to find out he had completely sided them out in favor of a belcher kill.

[kabards]

Does this card good sideboard against Sneak and Show? need all your opinions :wink:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/tp/153.jpg

[Cire_dk]

The card seems to limited in its use. Because we have only 60 (61) slots there are better ways to fill the deck.

[blindspotxxx]

OK so finally by Thursday my BG list will be "complete"... Well kinda, I added in some fillers that seem to be working (in a way) :O

3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm


I'm liking really liking Wall of Blossoms, it is decent in most matchups - stalls versus aggro and another warm body to sac to Therapy against combo/control. Sakura-Tribe Elder is there to provide some other means of ramp. I will most likely be cutting either one of those 2 or 1 of them completely in favor of some Planeswalkers or 1 more Thragtusk. Would also like to make room for some Innocent Blood, watcha think? :)

@Recycle: Time to test that on Cockatrice. I'm really hoping the GB version can fight off well against our current meta. That way I can slowly invest on the Rector build without suddenly splurging again. Also, really want that 4th Bayou but its selling like hotcakes everywhere here, and the prices are getting steeper.

What's your name in Cockatrice Sher? Let's play some test games

[waSP]

Has the Ancestral Visions tech made its way to the regular BUG decks yet? If you're running running a consistent removal/discard package, it's the best card in the deck.

With Jace and Eternal Witness and Cryptic Command (and Time Warps!?) it's pretty easy to Time Walk 5-8 times in a row without ever using Panoptic Mirror. It'd be interesting to run a heavily blue Nic Fit that just meant to take lots of turns and maybe attack with some little dudes, but mostly just to take lots of turns. I'm working on a mod that doesn't need to go infinite turns (just squeaks out wins anyway).

[Blastoderm]

Against batterskull decks, could kavu predator be of any use? Becomes a 6/6 trample if they hit you once. Sure it dies to swords but so does everything (except thrun :).

[raindrainxi]

3 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm



No planeswalkers? Liliana otV is still the tits, and you can't go wrong with Garruk as well. Recurring Nightmare has been meh for me, how is it faring with you? You also seem to have a lot of land ramp cards for a non-Scapeshift version. Just my 0.02c

[sherko7]

What's your name in Cockatrice Sher? Let's play some test games

Its actually "Sher" as well :) Yours?


No planeswalkers? Liliana otV is still the tits, and you can't go wrong with Garruk as well. Recurring Nightmare has been meh for me, how is it faring with you? You also seem to have a lot of land ramp cards for a non-Scapeshift version. Just my 0.02c

Honestly Recurring Nightmare has been a bit meh for me as well. Haven't used it much though, so I might let it stick around. The ramp is for G1 against decks you don't want to be ramping too much (i.e. Miracles, Elves Combo, SnT too perhaps). But its a flex spot. I don't like Liliana too much in this deck but I might try playing 1 in the MD. As for Garruk PH, don't have them yet, but will most likely do -1 Wall -1 Sakura for 2 Garruks.

I'm also thinking about getting +1 Skeletal Scrying in somehow...

[xfxf]

Hi guys,

After having ignored this deck for so long my new meta finally faced me Nic Fit. I can now distinguish between the Scapewish version, GB rock version and the similar GBw Birthing Pod version. What other versions are there? Is there a good primer on the different variations?

[Viridia]

There is:

GB
GBW Rector
GBW GoodStuff (Junk)
GBR Punishing Fire
GBR Scapewish
GBu GoodStuff
GBU Jace
GBU Chrono

and some 4 color piles like my own GBuw OmniRector.

I think i've covered most of them now :P

[TheArchitect]

Hi guys,

After having ignored this deck for so long my new meta finally faced me Nic Fit. I can now distinguish between the Scapewish version, GB rock version and the similar GBw Birthing Pod version. What other versions are there? Is there a good primer on the different variations?

The 1st post is terribly outdated but Arainrhod is working on a new primer and it is in his signature. That is a good starting point, also a few posters here have links to their latest lists in their sigs.

Basically the most common archtypes are:
- Scapewish - Wishboard, huntmasters, and angry mountains, can win on turn 3 while making you discard 2-4 cards if it gets the nuts
- GBx "rock" variations - some spash blue or white but they are all just GB based control decks sometimes splashing a color for good stuff like jace or sigarda, often more planeswalker heavy, these lists give up raw power for consistency
- Jund Punishing fire - punishing/grove, often has broodmate dragon as big finisher
- Rector - Heavier white influence, powerful enchantments usually with baneslayers or yosei to fly over a moat, light on removal but TONS of silver bullets
- Blue heavy BUG - not just splashing for jace/BS, but going heavy into blue with coiling oracle/strix often FoW somewhere in the 75

No one really plays pod anymore and it was never really very good. Theres also a lot of random unexplored/unproven archtypes that people like to toy around like future sight/helm of awakening/top combo, 4-5 color gifts ungiven, or lists running 5-8 PW.


Results wise, scapeshift definitely puts out the most. GB (no splash) or rector are probably the close 2nd/3rd as far as competitiveness goes. And meta depending the "best" of those 3 archtypes could switch around.

[TheArchitect]

ignore this - double post

[Viridia]

Scapewish is relatively easy to top 8 with compared to Rector and the likes, simply because it can randomly win with a burning wish or Scapeshift of the top and if you're a really lucky person you can win half of your matches on just that :P

Personally i like playing BGU and Rector most, because those involve the most thinking and tutoring :D

[kabards]

For me, i like playing Punishing Nic-fit because of the current meta, overflowing with RUG, BUG and Jund this was a good match up for me, but still there are also annoying combo decks like Show and Tell decks and Ad Nau variants.

[Siiig]

Scapewish is relatively easy to top 8 with compared to Rector and the likes, simply because it can randomly win with a burning wish or Scapeshift of the top and if you're a really lucky person you can win half of your matches on just that :P

Personally i like playing BGU and Rector most, because those involve the most thinking and tutoring :D

I'm biased as a Shift player, but this is a slight understatement.

One of shifts biggest "things" is that if your not facing wasteland (and often, even if you are) it's more or less inevitable that you'll win with a burning wish / scapeshift. Having lands as combo pieces is a disgusting "plan", and the beat down side of things just makes the match worse when your against it.

[Ayotte]

I thought I liked Scapewish best, but after a few weeks, I'm getting really sick of how terrible the mana is. I often get stuck with hands that can't cast veteran and therapy because there's a bunch of mountains and no fetch lands.

[TheArchitect]

I thought I liked Scapewish best, but after a few weeks, I'm getting really sick of how terrible the mana is. I often get stuck with hands that can't cast veteran and therapy because there's a bunch of mountains and no fetch lands.

What are you using for a manabase? The list I posted above is probably about the worst manabase you can have in scapewish and even that I havent had too much of a problem with. However, I noticed some lists have zero fetches which I think is a big mistake. You should still try to include the most possible fetches, which is unfortunately only like 2-4, but better than nothing.

I recommend the following:
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Tiaga
3 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volraths stronghold
3 Verdant catacombs

That gives you:
24 lands total
10 Mountains (any less and scapeshifts become unreliable, but 10 is plenty. You might drop 1 in 50 games cause you needed 1 more mountain in your 75, but having a better mana base, and fetches for shuffles will more than make up for that.)
3 Fetches for shuffles
The two towers win con (if your not sold on this, I think your making a mistake, but cut stronghold for another fetch and improve the manabase even more)
15 sources of red (average red sources per 7 card hand ~1.75 -note this is kind of lazy math, its actually a very small amount less but close enough)
12 sources of green (~1.4)
11 sources of black (~1.28)

For comparison, here is the math for the same list, just -3 fetches and +1 mountain, +1 bayou, +1 stomping ground
14 Red sources (average red sources per 7 card hand ~1.63)
11 Green (~1.28)
9 Black (~1.05)

*Note, I counted valakut as a red sources and phyrexian tower as black

Difference might not seem like much seem like much, but even just having 2 black sources less, makes you see about 20% less black mana, ~10% less green and ~5% less red. Thats a big difference from just having 3 fetches in your 75. You could even run 4 if you cut the stronghold, or go up to 25 lands. The later is not a bad idea if you are concerned.

[Arianrhod]

Should have content tomorrow morning, hopefully. Been battling an illness in a fervent attempt at regaining health in time for Mythic on Saturday. Not feeling too bad at the moment -- hopefully two more nights' sleep and another day of rest will do me good enough to be in combat readiness.

Until then, I'll leave you with a chuckle. You remember how last time the monthly DTB update happened, I said that we were doomed to never get in because of how the system is set up? This month, we are ahead of Elves on the chart -- yet Elves is somehow up something like 30 points on us, and therefore, they get DTB and we don't...even when we're higher on the charts.

One of these months, me, Qweerios, Tao, Evan and Erick, Higashi, and everyone else in this thread are just going to have the stars align and go on a ferocious tear. We'll show them all -.-

[Ayotte]

Viridia, that manabase is the same as mine but I think you have 1 more verdant catacombs than me. I know I copied it from you a little while back.

[Cire_dk]

@TheArchitect: I also noted that a third Bayou goes a long way to improve the chance of being able to play therapy and explorer. It also improves your opening hand. Shuffle effects are usefull but not necessary in this list in my opinion. The extra mountains are not only there for scapewish but also to go on a valakut plan if necessary.

[Siiig]

In the mana base issue with scapeshift, I've very heavily considered trying out Crop Rotation main board, adding in Boseiju and Karakas tech.

I don't expect Hypergenesis to keep seeing a lot of play up at Jupiter, but since someone in my group is the one that CAUSE that influx, I still have to deal with it regularly.

Do I have to explain Boseiju? I don't think I need to explain Boseiju.

Anyway, the crop rotation idea lets us to faster "mini shifts" that often get described for fixing our mana. Could also put a use to double phy tower shenanigans.

My personal manabase for Scapeshift...

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Phy Tower
2 Valakut

I find the deck goes through "fits" where the mana will suck for quite a few games. Obviously I know it's just bad shuffling / bad luck with the actual statistics, but I can still pretend this deck has a personality. My copy did this from round 4 last jupiter up until the middle of play testing with friends Tuesday night.

Although crop rot doesn't act as a fetch land, I often find I'd rather have exactly the land I need, rather than a better color. At that point I could easily justify bringing out a phy tower since I'll have a new method to bring it onto the battlefield.

[Arianrhod]

In the mana base issue with scapeshift, I've very heavily considered trying out Crop Rotation main board, adding in Boseiju and Karakas tech.

I don't expect Hypergenesis to keep seeing a lot of play up at Jupiter, but since someone in my group is the one that CAUSE that influx, I still have to deal with it regularly.

Do I have to explain Boseiju? I don't think I need to explain Boseiju.

Anyway, the crop rotation idea lets us to faster "mini shifts" that often get described for fixing our mana. Could also put a use to double phy tower shenanigans.

My personal manabase for Scapeshift...

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Phy Tower
2 Valakut

I find the deck goes through "fits" where the mana will suck for quite a few games. Obviously I know it's just bad shuffling / bad luck with the actual statistics, but I can still pretend this deck has a personality. My copy did this from round 4 last jupiter up until the middle of play testing with friends Tuesday night.

Although crop rot doesn't act as a fetch land, I often find I'd rather have exactly the land I need, rather than a better color. At that point I could easily justify bringing out a phy tower since I'll have a new method to bring it onto the battlefield.

Have you ever seen footage of Kenny Mayer shuffling, especially when he's on Battle of Wits? If you haven't, I highly recommend it. Usually when I'm playing Scapewish I try to emulate that style as much as I can, and that seems to help with the pockets of mana that are formed just by Scapewish being Scapewish.

Why do you have the 2nd Phy Tower over the 3rd Bayou? Tower is legendary and requires a critter in play to make it powerful. Scapewish doesn't need the extra sac outlet as badly as Rector does.

Mini-shift is only vs certain decks, or as an act of desperation. Unless I'm in a really dire place, I never shift just to fix my mana (or vs certain decks, ie shifting for basics vs stax, or shifting for valakuts + mountains vs miracles). It's a really shitty mana fixer.

Crop Rot in general seems fine....but you'd be choosing it over the other options for the 3x slots (assuming 61), which some opt for Decay in, or Olivia/Blitz. Those are your Crop Rot slots. If you're okay with that, then go nuts. Of course, finding room for the specialty lands is another story.

While we're on the topic of specialty lands, consider trying this guy if you go Crop Rot: Lavaclaw Reaches. That thing could put down a -world- of hurt in the right situation.


Has the Ancestral Visions tech made its way to the regular BUG decks yet? If you're running running a consistent removal/discard package, it's the best card in the deck.

With Jace and Eternal Witness and Cryptic Command (and Time Warps!?) it's pretty easy to Time Walk 5-8 times in a row without ever using Panoptic Mirror. It'd be interesting to run a heavily blue Nic Fit that just meant to take lots of turns and maybe attack with some little dudes, but mostly just to take lots of turns. I'm working on a mod that doesn't need to go infinite turns (just squeaks out wins anyway).

I'm in agreement. Mirror might be better as a 1-of rather than basing the deck around it. At the same time, Mirror + Visions is one of the most straight-up busted things you can do in Chrono Fit right now, so I dunno. Mirror is both clunky and amazing at the same time, and it's annoying.


Its actually "Sher" as well :) Yours?



Honestly Recurring Nightmare has been a bit meh for me as well. Haven't used it much though, so I might let it stick around. The ramp is for G1 against decks you don't want to be ramping too much (i.e. Miracles, Elves Combo, SnT too perhaps). But its a flex spot. I don't like Liliana too much in this deck but I might try playing 1 in the MD. As for Garruk PH, don't have them yet, but will most likely do -1 Wall -1 Sakura for 2 Garruks.

I'm also thinking about getting +1 Skeletal Scrying in somehow...

Scrying is atrocious now, don't bother. Half the format is munching your yard with Deathrite and the other half is whoring Rest in Peace.

You're on a junk-ish/good-stuff style right now, Sherko, so Nightmare is definitely not where you want to be. Nightmare is good in Gifts versions and Rector versions, and that's about it. I mean, it's REALLLLLY good there, but you can't just jam it in whatever version of Nic Fit in general and call it good. I would 100% cut Nightmare. If you want a long-term recursion engine, put in Primeval Titan and go for Volrath's Stronghold + Phy Tower. Nightmare is more powerful than Stronghold, but it requires more specifics built around it.


@TheArchitect: I also noted that a third Bayou goes a long way to improve the chance of being able to play therapy and explorer. It also improves your opening hand. Shuffle effects are usefull but not necessary in this list in my opinion. The extra mountains are not only there for scapewish but also to go on a valakut plan if necessary.

/barn


I tweaked my SB for a tournament I will attend this saturday (I am not sure about Nic Fit or Esperblade yet) and it looks like this:


1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide
1 Tsunami
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Oblivion Ring


I went for additional Surgical effects and Crypt over Nihil Spellbombs because of the new Balustrad Spy deck (I am pretty sure it scoops to extracted Moebas or poped Crypt in resp to library mill). I also took out a Memoricide for a Tsunami. The SB is calculated to replace the worthless mainboard cards for every unfair matchup. Decay and Pulses are my main Thoughtseize/Teeg replacements for fair matchups but I am seriously considering Lilies again somewhere now. Removal in the form of permanents is definitely where you want to be with Nic Fit.

Keep in mind that Spy often boards into Belcher postboard. The only hate that is both fast enough and truly effective vs both the Belcher and Spy plans, is Mindbreak Trap. Whether you want to go to that extreme or not depends entirely on how much storm presence/Spy presence you expect there to be. I've been liking the Traps so far, just because Nic Fit's one major achilles heel is t0/t1 combo, and Trap at least helps that problem. But, again, meta presence and all.

[Siiig]

Have you ever seen footage of Kenny Mayer shuffling, especially when he's on Battle of Wits? If you haven't, I highly recommend it. Usually when I'm playing Scapewish I try to emulate that style as much as I can, and that seems to help with the pockets of mana that are formed just by Scapewish being Scapewish.


No, I haven't. But I'm about to google it.

My choice for double Phy tower is just to increase the likelyhood of seeing it, but at the same time it's far from necessary. Bayou #3 doesn't exist simply because I only have two Bayous.

I mentioned using crop rot as a means of fixing/fetching, and I think this could warrant taking the fetch slots displayed in Architect's land base.

Sadly, taking that mana base means wasteland taiga -> surgical taiga is suddenly devastating to my alternate plan. The friends of mine who have realized that's a good play do serious work against me.


Lavaclaw Reaches...may be the card I've been searching for as a sick mana dump. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be getting one tonight + crop rots if I can find them.

[sherko7]

You're on a junk-ish/good-stuff style right now, Sherko, so Nightmare is definitely not where you want to be. Nightmare is good in Gifts versions and Rector versions, and that's about it. I mean, it's REALLLLLY good there, but you can't just jam it in whatever version of Nic Fit in general and call it good. I would 100% cut Nightmare. If you want a long-term recursion engine, put in Primeval Titan and go for Volrath's Stronghold + Phy Tower. Nightmare is more powerful than Stronghold, but it requires more specifics built around it.



Yeah, I kinda figured that out after play testing with the other lists. Nightmare just doesn't fit in the pure GB Rock list. Guess its time to smash in the Walkers :)

Also currently added in 1 Obstinate Baloth in my SB. Seems to work great against a lot of decks in our meta (Burn, Jund, U/R).

For PWers in the GB Rock list, I'm thinking 2 Garruk PH 1 Lili 1 Vraska. Can anyone justify playing more than 2 Lili? Seems it is a bit antisynergistic with how the deck operates, no?:eek:

As for Vraska, I'm sorry I know she's not as good as the other 2 but damn I just wanna swing with that Ulti! :laugh:

[Arianrhod]

Sadly, taking that mana base means wasteland taiga -> surgical taiga is suddenly devastating to my alternate plan. The friends of mine who have realized that's a good play do serious work against me.


This is EXACTLY why I don't like Evan's mana base. By cutting mountains for fetches, you improve your initial mana, but at the cost of stability and redundancy. It becomes very, very easy to shut off Scapeshift with a well-placed Sowing Salt / Waste+Surgical.

If you have 4 Taiga + 3 Badlands + 3 Mountains, let's say, and Taiga gets Sowing Salted/Surgicaled/whatever, you have 6 mountains left in your deck, which is the minimum allowed to Scapeshift. That means that you literally cannot draw a mountain or search for a mountain the entire game, if you want to Scapeshift, which also turns off all of your red cards. That's just wayyyyyyyyy too dangerous. I haven't been specifically coming out and pointing out that weakness because I know people from the Mythic playgroup read this thread, so I didn't want to give them ideas that could hurt Evan, but since you brought it up, I'll expound on it now.

[Star|Scream]

So is there a way to get reliable early access to black while maintaining enough mountains to support scapeshift?

[Arianrhod]

So is there a way to get reliable early access to black while maintaining enough mountains to support scapeshift?

3rd Bayou.

On a marginally more serious note, green is the critical color, because from green, all other colors stem. Green gives you Explorer, which gets you to other colors vs an aggressive deck. It gives you Zenith-> Tribe Elder, which gets you a basic swamp. If you're really heavy on non-black sources, you have Wood Elves as well, which can fetch Bayou.

You have 3 Bayou, 3 Badlands, and 2 Swamps, which gives you 8 black sources. Add on to that a Sakura-Tribe and the 2 Wood Elves, as well as 4 Zeniths, you get 15 "black" sources. + 4 Explorers is 19. Add in the tower as a half a black source.

That means you have a full 20 cards, or 1/3 of your deck, which either is directly a black source or can fetch a black source.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well our Legacy event didn't fire yesterday but I did play one match against UR Painter's Combo.

G1: Triple Cabal Therapy followed by beats and deeds wins me the game

-3 Vet -1 Damn -4 Troll/JMS/Skull +5 Extraction +3 Carpet

Misboarded most likely

G2: First legit win with my list encourages me to keep a no disruption hand. Die to Grindstone.

G3: This goes on forever, with me extracting both Servant and Grindstone. Unfortunately, a ton of misplays on my part (including said extraction of Servant and not Wurmcoil) I die to Wurmcoil + Transmute Artifact

So many punts . . . Didn't help that I was treating it as a friendly game and he wasn't. Good thing one of the guys who top 16 at Indy was there to give advice on my plays.

[Siiig]

Have you ever seen footage of Kenny Mayer shuffling, especially when he's on Battle of Wits?

Just watched him on SCG open at edison. Looks like he does multiple piles + a lot of chopping? It seemed silly to me at the time, but doing a double pile shuffle with some chops inbetween really seemed to help the feel of my deck last tuesday. It felt good enough where it will become my standard shuffle method between games.

[Wincheee]

Hey guys! tomorow i go to play Scapewish in a Legacy Open in Buenos Aires (im from Argentina) with this list:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dragon Broodmother/Blitz Hellion/Master of the Wild Hunt


4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift


2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Blood Crypt


SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Innocent Blood


Thoughts? i have a doubt in 2 slots,idk if better play 2 more creatures,like 1 ooze,and 1 dragon/blitz/master of the wild hunt,or just play 2 Abrupt decay in that slots..i feel i dont have instants responses early game,and abrupt decay is a beast,but in other hand,im feel a little safe playing 1 cementery hate maindeck(ooze) and another threat like Dragon Broodmother.

sorry for my english,and comments please! thank you!

[TheArchitect]

Yeah, I kinda figured that out after play testing with the other lists. Nightmare just doesn't fit in the pure GB Rock list. Guess its time to smash in the Walkers :)

Also currently added in 1 Obstinate Baloth in my SB. Seems to work great against a lot of decks in our meta (Burn, Jund, U/R).

For PWers in the GB Rock list, I'm thinking 2 Garruk PH 1 Lili 1 Vraska. Can anyone justify playing more than 2 Lili? Seems it is a bit antisynergistic with how the deck operates, no?:eek:

As for Vraska, I'm sorry I know she's not as good as the other 2 but damn I just wanna swing with that Ulti! :laugh:

In GB, I personally really like Liliana, I run 3 of them. There is no reason to run her as less than a 3 of. You either want AT LEAST one of her every game, or none of her. Shes not like jace, where you play her and protect her till you win. You just play her and always get a 2 for 1, and if your lucky you can get a like a 5 for 1. Shes just a controlling 3 drop. Also, dont play vraska, she isnt very good. Karn however, is awesome in GB. Personally, I run 3 lily, 2 prime hunters, 1 karn. However if your not a fan of lily, just run 0.

Baloth seems pretty good in that meta!

For reference, here is my current GB, that I haven't used in anything more than a 5$ tourny in a while, but Ive tested it a lot and really happy with it:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Extirpate
1 Ichneumon Druid*
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation*
3 Mindbreak Trap*

The SB is kinda meta dependent, the cards marked with * are just reflecting that I see a lot of storm based combo and random tribal/aggro decks that I dont want to lose to.



@ Surgicaling my taigas :(

I luckily never had that happen to me, but I think that is a risk I am willing to accept to improve my consistency. Adding 2 more Stomping grounds (To have 2 SG, 3 Mnt, 3 Badlands after losing tiagas is still only 7 lands, so you cant really play more than a few). However, dont forget that even if you have only 2 mountains left in your deck, if you have 4 in play, and 8 lands total you can still scapeshift for 2 valakuts, 2 mnts and just leave you 4 mnts unsacrificed. 12 Dmg is still alot after a grindy game of huntmasters, surgical extractions, thoughtseizes and fetchlands. Also note, I do normally run 4 basic mountains (which I suppose one could be a stomping ground) so I still have 7 non-taiga mountains. Most of the kind of decks that would be using surgical/extirpate we don't even need scapeshift against since deed, thragtusk and huntmaster are better than their whole deck (UR delver burn, jund, RUG, etc.). BUG control and esperblade, run those cards occasionally, but esperblade cant kill our taigas easily, and BUG doesnt use surgical nearly as often as the other mentioned decks.

I will be at mythic tomorrow btw, Im not 100% sure what list Im going to be playing though. Its definitely going to have veteran explorers in it though. I let you all know how it goes!

[slave]

Hi all,

Been loving this thread. Not quite all the way through it yet, but I'm getn there.

I have a few questions about this deck archetype.
Considering the popular variants of Nic Fit - GBw, GBr or simple GB;
What are the differences with respect to speed, flexibility, alternate win-con's etc.?

I'm a GB player mostly (competitively anyway) and already have quite a few of the NicFit staples, but just not sure which way I should go.
If you were starting out again in NicFit, which build would you persue?

Ta.:smile:

[Zombie]

btw, is ANT how much of a problem? Every time I play with the damn thing I'm so conscious of the fact that my deck has literally 3 cards that can win the game, max, if even that (G1 I literally lose to Extract) and that I'm packing Grim Tutors instead of Burning Wishes. That is to say, Sadistic Sacrament sounds sexy. Sadly it doesn't phase TES and it's ilk much.

[Zombie]

Hi all,

Been loving this thread. Not quite all the way through it yet, but I'm getn there.

I have a few questions about this deck archetype.
Considering the popular variants of Nic Fit - GBw, GBr or simple GB;
What are the differences with respect to speed, flexibility, alternate win-con's etc.?

I'm a GB player mostly (competitively anyway) and already have quite a few of the NicFit staples, but just not sure which way I should go.
If you were starting out again in NicFit, which build would you persue?

Ta.:smile:

Rector is fun. Though these people here don't follow the Righteous Path Of Eldrazi Conscription FTW, it can perhaps be forgiven because they're playing Rector ^^

[Petree]

Hi all,

Been loving this thread. Not quite all the way through it yet, but I'm getn there.

I have a few questions about this deck archetype.
Considering the popular variants of Nic Fit - GBw, GBr or simple GB;
What are the differences with respect to speed, flexibility, alternate win-con's etc.?

I'm a GB player mostly (competitively anyway) and already have quite a few of the NicFit staples, but just not sure which way I should go.
If you were starting out again in NicFit, which build would you persue?

Ta.:smile:



I would prefer Arianhood answering this because he's basically got this down lol

but IMO... GBW is the most flexible version, you can add and mix shit all over the place.... It's slower though, doesn't mean it's bad, it just means you play
board control and win late game. There's a crap load of win con.

GBR or if your talking about scapewish.... This deck is not flexible at all, it's very strict and as you can see from the previous posts that there's s
serious mana issue (but that can be said about nic fit in general). This deck is the fastest because it has scapewish combo, turn 3 or 4
is possible. And basically speaking it's your other win condition.

GBu i cannot speak behalf of bc i believe its still in development and I have never played it.

GB.... All I can say is why? It's simple but the tri color is much more powerful, the alternate color let's you decide to be aggressive or control base.


I used to play GBW style, not rector, and i will admit that the deck is very very powerful and even when you feel that you've ran out of shit to do, you can still do some random broken shit lol... I'm currently on scapewish and its da bomb. But it's like I said play according to and who you are or else you'll never know.... and you have to lose in order to learn how to win...

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My thoughts on Jace Fit and Scapewish;

Both are very similar in that both improve our topdeck game and provide alt win cons. But whereas Scapewish will Miracle wins with Wish or Shift, Jace Fit can both keep them in topdeck mode and keep us out of topdeck mode, all while building up to our alt win con.

EDIT: Also be forewarned that if you choose Jace Fit, games will grind out, and people will get annoyed with how long the games go.

EDIT: On an unrelated note, anyone going to SCG Cincy have 3 Thoughtseizes they can loan me for the event? I'm not sold on either Duress or Inquisition now that Elves is a DtB and ANT has such a heavy presence.

[anwei]

My thoughts on Jace Fit and Scapewish;

Both are very similar in that both improve our topdeck game and provide alt win cons. But whereas Scapewish will Miracle wins with Wish or Shift, Jace Fit can both keep them in topdeck mode and keep us out of topdeck mode, all while building up to our alt win con.


I'm tinkering around with BUG lists (no Gifts/Intuition/Time Warps) as I move into this deck and had a few "general" questions for non-sneaky-combo builds:
1. How many Green sources should one be running for potential T1 Explorer? (minimum and/or optimal?)
2. How many Sac outlets? (minimum and/or optimal?)
3. How does playing no ramp dudes/spells besides Explorer/GSZ (4-of-each) work out?
4. I'm planning on Primeval Titan and the 2 Towers, potentially with man lands as alternative late game plays. I've seen 2 Treetop Villages, EpicLevelCommoner has 2 Factories, and I've seen Titan with no man lands. I would have access to Creeping Tar Pit. Is running more lands a good enough fit with the Titan to overcome the CIP tapped drawback (of Treetop/Tar Pit)? Experiences with 1/22 tapped lands? 2/22? 1 or 2/ 23 lands?

For reference, here's where I'm starting:

3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 U Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village?
=22 Lands (14-15G, 12U, 12-13B)

4 Explorer
2 Strix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Ooze
1 Thrun
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Simic Sky Swallower (or Hornet Queen or Deathrite Shaman)
2 JTMS
1 Lily (or 3rd JTMS)
=17 "Dudes"

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
=12 Removal/Disruption

4 Brainstorm
4 GSZ
1 Fact or Fiction
=9 Selection

Sideboard is thoroughly unfinished.

[Wincheee]

ok,thaaaaank you for your counsels and thoughts on my post.... ¬¬....

well,i made a nice top 8 of 87 peoples with Scapeshift winning vs elfball,affinity,Rug,BUG Agent,Spanish Inquisition,lost to RUG,id last round,and lose to Eldrazi UG in top 8.

Peace.

[TheArchitect]

ok,thaaaaank you for your counsels and thoughts on my post.... ¬¬....

well,i made a nice top 8 of 87 peoples with Scapeshift winning vs elfball,affinity,Rug,BUG Agent,Spanish Inquisition,lost to RUG,id last round,and lose to Eldrazi UG in top 8.

Peace.

Nice! goodjob.

Nothing to brag about, but I got top 16 at Mythic.

Dredge 2-1
Turbo Eldrazi 1-0-1
UR Omintell 2-1
Monoblack Pox 1-2
NO Bant 0-2
GW elves 2-0

Turbo eldrazi and omintell matches were incredibly fun and interactive compared to the usual way those matches play. One mistake I made, and learned from was I didn't scapeshift for nonleathal, when my turbo eldrazi opponent had glacial chasm in hand. I only had one turn to get the 18 damage in (putting him to 1) and I passed it up and then never dealt dmg to him for the rest of the game. This is price I paid for not having sowing salts in my SB that day. Against omintell, i survived an Emrakul attack and a hardcasted omnitell (lol!) and still won. The omnitell opponent was on MUD last month and beat me after I scapeshifted him for 52 and he DIDNT DIE cause he was at 56, so this was my revenge.

The other matches were all pretty boring/typical. Against bant my deck just crapped on me and I missed critical therapies both games.

My SB for the day was below. Wouldn't always look like this but at least 30% of the room was on combo and probably 15% of storm. And it was just that one guy on Turbo Eldrazi, and no one on MUD, so I didn't play sowing salts/pulverize. I wanted extipates in there, but mindbreak traps took priority.

3 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak trap
1 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Perish
1 Damnation
1 Innocent blood
1 Maelstorm pulse
1 Scapeshift
1 Reanimate

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm tinkering around with BUG lists (no Gifts/Intuition/Time Warps) as I move into this deck and had a few "general" questions for non-sneaky-combo builds:
1. How many Green sources should one be running for potential T1 Explorer? (minimum and/or optimal?)
2. How many Sac outlets? (minimum and/or optimal?)
3. How does playing no ramp dudes/spells besides Explorer/GSZ (4-of-each) work out?
4. I'm planning on Primeval Titan and the 2 Towers, potentially with man lands as alternative late game plays. I've seen 2 Treetop Villages, EpicLevelCommoner has 2 Factories, and I've seen Titan with no man lands. I would have access to Creeping Tar Pit. Is running more lands a good enough fit with the Titan to overcome the CIP tapped drawback (of Treetop/Tar Pit)? Experiences with 1/22 tapped lands? 2/22? 1 or 2/ 23 lands?

1. 8 Fetches Minimum. 3 Duals Minimum. A Basic for each colored mana symbol you need (example: Garruk Primal Hunter = 3 Forest, JMS = 2 Island) plus more to taste. Personally, I run 8 Fetches that get green sources, 1 Bayou/1 Tropical Island, and 3 Forest. This makes for a grand total of 15 Green Sources, which is a very good number for such a green intensive deck.

2. 4 Cabal Therapy + 1 Phyrexian Tower + 1 Diabolic Intent is the bare minimum imo.

3. Depends on if you're against aggro, combo, or control. Aggro will trigger Vets just by swinging, whereas Control and Combo require some sac-effect to trigger Vet. I prefer Dryad Arbor, as while you're durdling you can always yank it out via GSZ or Forest-Fetch, and Deathrite Shaman, which can harass them.

4. Treetop Villages give you the most power for your mana, Mishra's Factories give you the convenience of coming into play untapped at the cost of producing colorless mana, and Creeping Tar Pit is awesome at killing Jace w/ blockers and acts as another dual land. Actually . . . might make an audible here: -1 Underground Sea +1 Creeping Tar Pit. It really depends on how much durdling you expect to do over the course of your games: a few top deck taplands won't hurt if you spend most of your time passing turns anyway.

[Wincheee]

I had so much fun playing Scapewish,,but i love playing with Brainstorms,daze,fow so i dont go to play this decck anymore,but i go to tell u this,test Master of the wild hunt,is fucking insane,and have crazy sinergy with Huntmaster of the fells,cause both are hunters,and have wolfs,u know XD

Peace!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Went 1 3 0 Drop at SCG Cincy today (had other business come up abruptly)

Match 1 v Andrew on Spanish Inquisition. Aka the great punt
G1: He mulled to 6 and keeps. Nothing really happens: he bricks on mana and I beat on the ground.
G2: He mulled to 5 and I keep. Unfortunately I misboarded and couldn't save myself
G3: I reboard, but opt not to mulligan for MBT. Death by Tendrils Turn 1

Match 2 v Trevor on BG Pox
G1 & G2: Holy hell this was a nightmare! I could never get enough resources to do anything! The is the one game where I wish I had Decay over Damnation. . . Triple Lili ult is rough.

Match 3 v Collin on BW Superfriends
G1 & G2: A very fun, very grindy match. He runs no fetches or duals, but my two sided ramp get him Entreat and Grave Titan. Removal is wasted on Walkers, so I die a very Nic death. Side note: I suggest he try out Nic Fit itself since it works well with all of his high cost stuff.

Match 4 v Kyle on Combo Elves
G1: Craterhoof kills me. The end. . . . ?
G2 & G3: Rip his hand apart and strip his win cons out. He scoops G3.

[Arianrhod]

Went 1 3 0 Drop at SCG Cincy today (had other business come up abruptly)

Match 1 v Andrew on Spanish Inquisition. Aka the great punt
G1: He mulled to 6 and keeps. Nothing really happens: he bricks on mana and I beat on the ground.
G2: He mulled to 5 and I keep. Unfortunately I misboarded and couldn't save myself
G3: I reboard, but opt not to mulligan for MBT. Death by Tendrils Turn 1

Match 2 v Trevor on BG Pox
G1 & G2: Holy hell this was a nightmare! I could never get enough resources to do anything! The is the one game where I wish I had Decay over Damnation. . . Triple Lili ult is rough.

Match 3 v Collin on BW Superfriends
G1 & G2: A very fun, very grindy match. He runs no fetches or duals, but my two sided ramp get him Entreat and Grave Titan. Removal is wasted on Walkers, so I die a very Nic death. Side note: I suggest he try out Nic Fit itself since it works well with all of his high cost stuff.

Match 4 v Kyle on Combo Elves
G1: Craterhoof kills me. The end. . . . ?
G2 & G3: Rip his hand apart and strip his win cons out. He scoops G3.

Those are three very odd matchups.

Also, there was someone playing Nic Fit who got a round 3 feature (meaning he was 3-0). Any idea if he was one of ours, or a wild one?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Those are three very odd matchups.

Also, there was someone playing Nic Fit who got a round 3 feature (meaning he was 3-0). Any idea if he was one of ours, or a wild one?

The only other Nic Fit guy I saw (sat across from him before Matches started) said he dropped and was on straight GB. But glad he did well: what was he running?

EDIT: The list I ran:

4 Vet
2 DRS
1 Ooze
2 Witness
1 Thrun
2 Thragtusk
1 PrimeTime
4 Therapy
4 Deed
2 Pulse
2 Damnation
4 GSZ
4 Brainstorm
1 Intent
2 JMS
1 Batterskull
2 Factories
1 Tar Pit
1 Tower
1 Stronghold
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant
4 Misty
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Arbor

3 Carpet
3 Surgical
3 Thoughtseize
2 MBT
1 Empath
1 Horror
1 Cranial
1 Memoricide

EDIT: Thoughts:

Underground Sea for Creeping Tar Pit was indeed a good audible. Many a walker died to 3 unblockable power.

Thoughtseize is awesome.

Once I find my other Extirpates, I'm using them over the Cranial Twins. Reason being that I already pack a ton of removal, so something hitting the bin isn't unreasonable. Plus ick @ 4 mana.

[Arianrhod]

I don't know -- I didn't see it.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think it might have been CRich3: he said he was gonna be running Rector Version, right? And based on the footage, it looks like a GBw deck, and the commentators kept mentioning Rector so *shrug*.

Also, I need to ask a question: how do you play JMS correctly?

[Arianrhod]

I think it might have been CRich3: he said he was gonna be running Rector Version, right? And based on the footage, it looks like a GBw deck, and the commentators kept mentioning Rector so *shrug*.

Also, I need to ask a question: how do you play JMS correctly?

When your opponent has no field and no hand, you fateseal them. When they have either of those, you brainstorm until you've whittled them out of resources. If they only have one critter in play, bounce it to buy a little time to deploy a blocker / removal spell. When they have a top or a Sylvan out but are otherwise out of resources, fateseal yourself.

There's a few other corner cases, but that's a good general way of putting it.

[Arianrhod]

Found the coverage. It's definitely not CRich -- looks like a wilder. He played against Hypergen, and he was running an old Birthing Pod version. I'm watching it through now.

Okay, that took like five minutes. The guy kept a really loose hand g3 and got punished by it. Also, the Hypergen player had Leyline of Sanctity g2 and g3, which hurt Justin a lot. The commentators said that he had like Birthing Pod, Reveillark, Sun Titan, Recurring Nightmare, O-Ring, Rector, and I saw Innocent Blood, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana of the Veil. So....just an updated Pod list from some wild player, I guess. That's disappointing -- I was hoping it was going to be CRich =(

[Tao]

Also, I need to ask a question: how do you play JMS correctly?

(0):
- whenever you can. If nothing threatens you, you can just Brainstorm every turn.
- usually the right choice when in doubt. Even if you lose the Jace you still got at least even on cards.


(- 1):

- When you have to catch up on tempo. A common line is to tap out to play Jace, bounce their Tarmogoyf, let them replay it, then Brainstorm to find a Removal spell or a blocker that protects Jace.

- to survive: for example when you are against U/R Burn Delver you can bounce a Delver to gain some life and give you another land drop, even if you lose the Jace the next turn.

- if they have a giant Emrakul or Tombstalker out, bouncing it is probably a good choice

- you can "kill" creatures by combining Jace's bounce and Cabal Therapy


(+2):
- to ensure victory against Combo decks if you have managed to get rid of their win conditions. Easy examples would be against a Sneak and Tell deck that has Sneak Attack in play but no big creature in hand. Or a Belcher deck with 10+ Mana in hand/board but no win condition. Now you can fateseal them and put on the botttom their win conditions (and their Brainstoms and Ponders in case of Sneak and Tell) to make it less likely that they kill you.

- when you want Jace to survive 3 or 4 points of damage. FOr example against Jund if they can't attack you on the ground but could very likely have a Lightning Bolt in hand. You can use the +2 to get Jace out of Bolt Range.

- when a control mirror gets really grindy and you need him as another win condition.

[Qweerios]

Played the Legacy part of a team trio event. We didn't get very far, our standard player lost all of his matches and our modern and legacy wins did not coincide and a few too many draws. Anyways, here's how it went on my side:

R1: 2-1 vs. OmniTell

G1: I keep a top an explorer a therapy a forest and a plains in hand. My opponent uses a personal tutor for SnT and I dig for a black source.... for 5 turns where I had to GSZ@0 for the shuffle effect once. Luckily, my opponent was in the same boat as he brainstormed, pondered, preordained, and even wished for Petals of Insight to dig for a win-con. I eventualy found a Tower and used a thoughtseize and 3 therapies during the same turn. I beat him down with a beast token while holding an Angel of Despair.

-4 Deed, -2 Vindicate, -2 AD, -1 Ooze, -1 Thragtusk, +2 O-Ring, +2 TS, +2 Extirpate, +2 Extraction, +1 Tsunami, +1 Memoricide

G2: T2 Combo win
G3: T1 thoughtseize and T2 Teeg gets me enough time to play witness, thoughtseize again, find and pop a therapy. I attempt to cast a Tsunami but I realize Teeg is still on the table, luckily for me he didn't notice so I won from there with Teeg and Witness beats.

R2: 0-2 vs. Reanimator

G1: I see an untaped UDG Sea and call reanimate.. My opener had 2 Deeds and a Vindicate which is pretty bad against Reanimator. He drew into Entomb and Animate Dead and found a FoW with Grissel, I lost.

-4 Deed, -2 Decay, -2 Vindicate, -1 Sun Titan, -1 Teeg, +2 Surgical, +2 Extirpate, +1 Spellbomb, +1 Memoricide, +2 TS, +2 O-Ring

G2: I kept a Therapy, Explorer, Memoricide hand. My opponent kept a 2 land, FoW, 3 Fatties hand. First therapy whiffs, second Therapy gets Forced (go figure?). Griselbrand gets Reanimated so I cast O-ring on it, -7 life, no FoW found (down to 3 life). I memoricide Exhume so he has 3 Reanimate left in his deck that he cannot use and 2 Animate Dead. I drew into 3 lands and he found Animate Dead on Angel of Despair to pop ORing. I kept drawing lands and died.

Our modern player had won his round 2 match and lost his round 1 match so with standard going 0-2 we were out of contention with a 0-2 start, so we start not caring anymore.

R3: 1-1-1 vs. Miracle

G1: Long game, some really retarded therapies, and a lot of Jacing later I die to 6 angel tokens in 2 turns (43 life).

-2 TS, -1 Teeg, -1 Ooze, +1 Tsunami, +1 Memoricide, +2 Abrupt Decay

G2: Nuts start that ends with Sigarda, Sun Titan + Deed

G3: Good start again (T1 Top) and I eventualy resolve a Tsunami destroying every land except a Glacial Fortress. My opponent fails to find lands, time is called. I Vindicate the lonely land, play Empath, find a Sun Titan. My opponent is holding a FoW so I can't race him in time (I had Volrath Stronghold in play as well).

R4: 2-1 vs. Spy combo

G1: I play Forest + Top, he combos off T1

-2 Deed, -2 Vindicate, -2 Decay, -1 Sigarda, -1 Empath, -1 Angel, -1 Titan, +2, Minbreak Trap, +2 TS, +2 Extirpate, +2 Surgical, +1 Memoricide, +1 Spellbomb,

G2: I keep a hand with Mindbreak Trap and Memoricide on Cabal Therapy + GSZ into Ooze, he never found a way around

G3: He opens up with a Shelldock Isle into Petal + Spirit Guide + Recross the Paths then proceeds to explain to me how it lets him rearrange his deck as he pleases because he has no lands in his deck. Then we clash and he reveals a Gitaxian Probe, so he plays a LED and passes the turn. I play a Bayou and pass. He draws, plays Probe and cracks LED in response, I Extirpate his LED and shuffle his deck, he scooped.

R5 is where I am pretty dissapointed with Standard (0-4) and just fling my cards into play... We decide to drop after this one since our team score is something like 1-2-1. So I end up playing against UR Burn, play some Thragtusks and Oozes, then go home to eat something...


Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of Despair

Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide
1 Tsunami
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Oblivion Ring


Overall I am pleased with the deck's performance. I was paired up with most of the decks I didn't want to face and the preparation paid off, except against reanimator where I was honestly just a bit short on the draws (4 GSZ, 1 Ooze, 4 Extractors, 1 Spellbomb, 3 Tops and drew into 4 consec lands and a Therapy).

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, 2-1-1 vs those decks is not bad at all -- especially since you would have been 3-1 if you'd had a bit more time vs Miracles. There's little doubt in my mind that our sideboard needs to be heavily anti-combo considering the current metagame is a combo player's paradise.

What does Teeg do vs OmniTell? Just to stop him from hardcasting Omni? I guess it stops Petals? Were there any other times where Teeg dicked you out of your other hate cards, other than the Tsunami?

Also, rough beats vs Reanimator in g2. No guarantee that g3 would have gone more to your liking, of course, but even having the chance would have been nice. I'm legitimately thinking that the format is almost ready for Leyline of the Void again. Reanimator's making something of a comeback (at least in my area), and Leyline is also useful against Spy. Most of the Spy decks up here don't board into Belcher -- they're loading up on additional anti-hate options like Nature's Claims and Chancellor of the Annex (barf). Chancellor and the fact that they're running 4x maindeck Pact of Negation is kind of scaring me off of Mindbreak Trap a little, although I -like- having the Traps. They're solid vs TES/High Tide/Belcher as well as Spy, and I want a Leyline of Sanctity out in all of those games anyway, so they can't really mess with my Mindbreak Trap. They usually either board Silence out in the matchup, or else use it aggressivley as a Time Walk for my Therapies.

At this point, it seems like most of the fair decks have boiled down into Esperblade, RUG/BUG Delver, and Jund. Esperblade we don't especially care about. It's an attrition war, and as long as we can keep their equipment in check, we win that fight. The plan vs Esperblade is much the same as vs Miracles: win game one. If you can win game one, odds are slim that they'll be able to win game two in time to draw it. Keep in mind, though, that most will bring in Geist of St. Douchebag and Sword of Feast/Famine in an attempt to close the match out quickly.

RUG/BUG....not sure anything needs to be said there. Carpet of Flowers is still strictly better than these decks, or an Explorer that goes off. Pretty much any ramp means we win. BUG is slightly scarier because they have 4 Sinkholes in the board to bring in, which can represent a problem. At the same time, though, BUG doesn't have burn with which to increase their clock. So....I guess it probably evens out in the long run?

My experience with the Jund matchup is that it all comes down to Liliana of the Veil. If they see Liliana within the first 2-4 turns, they're favored. If they don't, we're going to tear them a new asshole. Sigarda is literally better than their 75. Just a matter of getting to her relatively intact.

The combo decks comprise three categories: Graveyard, Storm, and Show/Tell-based. Graveyard includes Reanimator, Dredge, and Spy; Storm features Belcher, TES, ANT, and High Tide; Show/Tell includes Sneak/Show, OmniTell, and HyperGen. Note that I count 12post as a brother in arms to Nic Fit, and not as a combo deck (some consider it combo, I don't).

Graveyard is not being held down by Deathrite Shaman as much as people thought that it would. Spy's faster than it, Dredge overloads it, and Reanimator has tricks for days. Reanimator is probably the scariest of these decks. Spy is still fairly inconsistent, although it's more so than Belcher. Spy seems like it's also a fairly challenging deck to pilot correctly. Dredge entirely depends on their hand. Sometimes they hit you with the FoW tax, and just go nutso with LED...sometimes they have a slower hand and Nic Fit does what Nic Fit does. The fact that our deck is built around sacrificing creatures as a core mechanic is really bad for them.

Storm is a lot more resilient to blue than it used to be -- or at least it seems that way. Belcher is still a very random deck. If they go Goblins, you actually have a good shot of winning because of Pernicious Deed. Competent pilots will try to mulligan for Belcher hands, but Belcher as a deck is a lot more likely to end up going Goblins than Belcher, it seems. Also, if they're mulling for Belcher, that gives us a much better shot since they'll be down cards. High Tide ends up coming down to how many Therapies/Carpets you see. Red versions tend to ignore High Tide as a deck because they have REB and Slaughter Games. That's basically a bye post-board. TES/ANT largely depends on hands. Sometimes they'll win, sometimes you'll win.

Show/Tell is the most dangerous category IMO, for one reason and one reason only: they very, very often sport Leyline of Sanctity. Rector can slam Humility, Sigarda vs Emmy, and Baneslayers vs Griselbrand, and white versions overall have access Angel of Despair, but a lot of these are dependent on what plan the Show player is on. Oftentimes, competent Sneak players will Show a Sneak, and if you Show Angel, they'll activate Sneak in response to the Angel trigger and just kill you. Red versions are usually just screwed, unless Scapewish drops like Primeval Titan and then proceeds to just enter the win the game phase. Note: if Show/Tell decks DON'T have Leyline, it's usually not that horrible of a matchup. They really, really hate discard, and Memoricide/Slaughter Games/Cranial are like, the bane of their existence.

So, what can we take away from this snapshot of the metagame?

Leyline of Sanctity is really good for us while being really bad for us. Leyline has utility vs Jund in the fair category, as well as the entire Storm family. It's even still at least marginally useful vs High Tide, because it turns off their Intuition and Gitaxian Probes (relevant if we're on Mindbreak Trap). Shutting down Intuition kills one of their main ways of grabbing Time Spiral (Merchant Scroll -> Intuition for triple Spiral). As stated previously, Leyline is one of the cards that we never want to see played against us. We don't have room for cheap enchantment destruction, and really our only effective out to it is to Pulse/Vindicate/Deed it. This tells me that we want to move more of our disruption away from being discard/target-player-based.

Spy, as it's being built in the northeast, is a very scary deck. It often runs Leylines, but it is also running 4 maindeck Pact of Negation and possibly sideboarding Chancellor of the Annex, which, when revealed from opening hand, Dazes our first spell. These 8 cards mean that we cannot rely on Mindbreak Trap's effectiveness in this matchup, and Leyline shuts down Therapy. The ONLY effective hate for this deck is Leyline of the Void. They do run usually a playset of Nature's Claims, but they often won't have boarded them in for g2. Leyline of the Void is also effective vs Dredge and Reanimator, obviously, while having applications vs Jund, Esperblade, and RUG.

Show and Tell needs to be fought, again, with non-targeted hate. Removal doesn't seem as optimal here given that Griselbrand will just draw a million cards. Rector seems okay in the Sneak matchup still, although it's a close and scary set of games every time. OmniTell and HyperGen are much, much scarier. HyperGen can be stopped effectively by Chalice of the Void on 0, which is an option that is highly effective against Spy and most Storm decks, as well. At that point, HyperGen is basically all-in on Show and Tell, which should slow them down a lot / we're already fairly prepared for.

So, I'm considering something like the following as a sideboard:

2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Tsunami
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Angel of Despair
1 Nether Void
1 Humility

Things I don't like this about this sideboard: only 2 Traps and only 2 Carpets (I would rather have 3 of each). Things I do like: the 2/2/2 split of Leyline/Leyline/Chalice.

[ZimAshe]

i have to say I've really like my E Tutor side board. It has worked very well in a variety of matchups.

Sideboard:

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist


I can't for the life of me remember what the 15 card is lol! it might be a Maelstrom Pulse but I'm not sure.
Plague is for the Tribal decks and while 1 works well agains elves. Goblins has a lot of x/2's so a second is necessary.
Canonist and Teeg double team the storm decks. Teeg is also good against the blue decks
O-Ring is an answer to S&T
Choke shuts off blue decks and Wheel and Spellbomb are for dredge.
Kitchen Finks is for added life gain agaisnt the aggressive decks.
I've been less and less impressed with Surgical effects and find myself almost never boarding them in. those may be replaced with other cards.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I know I don't have any credibility to my name, but Leyline of the Void is bad for our Veteran Explorers. Is that worth the benefit, especially against SnT Reanimator?

Surgical Extraction seems like the better choice here, even if it isn't as strong.

[Arianrhod]

I know I don't have any credibility to my name, but Leyline of the Void is bad for our Veteran Explorers. Is that worth the benefit, especially against SnT Reanimator?

Surgical Extraction seems like the better choice here, even if it isn't as strong.

Wut. Leyline is oppnents only.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Uh ... my bad ... just remember the Loam Pox player using it against me :/ In that case it's very good.

[Arew]

I know of at least one other BGw NicFit player at Cinci, because I beat him round 5 or 6. Have no idea how he did after that, but he mentioned it was his first real legacy tournament.

[Blastoderm]

Has anyone tested Natural Order? I've been back to using it now (after destroying tons of maverick back in the day).
I'm also playing Hymn to Tourach as well. Against sneak and show with nic fit, I found the deck to be too slow at finishing the opponent after you strip his hand. So what I do now is hope to land some good therapies/hymns with witness helping to cast them again then natural order for terastodon destroying 3 of my lands and attacking for 18 next turn. Working quite nicely so far actually.

[Mister M.]

Hi, fellow NicFitters,

I am on ScapeWish for a few months now and my quick question for you is: how much weight is pulling Tsunami in the wishboard for you? Most of the times i think about wishing for Tsunami, Scapeshift seems like the better wish target since then I have enough (or nearly enough) lands in play anyway.

best

[Chatto]

What does Teeg do vs OmniTell? Just to stop him from hardcasting Omni?

@ Arianrhod: Omniciense says you can cast without paying the manacost. Does that mean that Teeg stops them from casting spell with cmc 4 or higher? That world make sense, right?

Of course I could be misinterpretating Omnisience...

[HoneyT]

@ Arianrhod: Omniciense says you can cast without paying the manacost. Does that mean that Teeg stops them from casting spell with cmc 4 or higher? That world make sense, right?

Of course I could be misinterpretating Omnisience...

It shuts off exactly hardcasting Omniscience and the Petals of Insight combo. Thats it. They're left with just Emrakuling/Griselbranding you. Poor bastards.

[CRich3]

I actually didn't make SCG Cincy. I had to go to a funeral in Michigan the day before and didnt have the energy to so in the car to make it to Cincy. Plus I set my alarm clock for pm instead of am and didnt get up until 9 (I'm in Columbus). So I didn't make it. Maybe next time. It sucks because I had mostly good match ups from seeing the results :(.

[unemployer]

Hi, fellow NicFitters,

I am on ScapeWish for a few months now and my quick question for you is: how much weight is pulling Tsunami in the wishboard for you? Most of the times i think about wishing for Tsunami, Scapeshift seems like the better wish target since then I have enough (or nearly enough) lands in play anyway.

best
I used to put Tsunami in the board then changed it to Sowing Salt. In the end, I never needed it. I only boarded things that Scapewish is really bad at which is combo

[Chatto]

It shuts off exactly hardcasting Omniscience and the Petals of Insight combo. Thats it. They're left with just Emrakuling/Griselbranding you. Poor bastards.

Aah, now I understand. As I thought: i was misreading something... :-)

[ZimAshe]

has anyone tested Cartel Aristocrat as another potential sacrifice outlet for V Explorer in GBw?

[Viridia]

It's a non-zenithable sacrifice outlet that does pretty much nothing, i don't see the point in it?

[Siiig]

Hi, fellow NicFitters,

I am on ScapeWish for a few months now and my quick question for you is: how much weight is pulling Tsunami in the wishboard for you? Most of the times i think about wishing for Tsunami, Scapeshift seems like the better wish target since then I have enough (or nearly enough) lands in play anyway.

best

This is just my personal feeling, but Tsunami has always been one of the softest wishboard targets. It was first on my list to drop out for experimenting with other cards.

As shift players, I think the possibility of layline showing up AGAINST us warrants a wish slot dedicated to getting rid of it, my personal choice for this was Reverent Silence because it's free if you need it immediately.

The same thing goes for 12 post as a deck, in light of it's prevalence at the last major tournament I attended (Feb Jupiter) I have ruination waiting in the wings.

--

I'm attempting to tune my shift deck up to be more gooder in the meta I saw last time at Juipiter, problem being that softens my deck to a lot of fair decks (less agro, more hate). I currently have Huntmaster #3 swapped out for a Scavenging Ooze, and have Void on my mind for a 2 of in the sideboard. Basically lowering my wish target count in favor of flat answers.

The RockFit seems more appealing in the overall meta, but I don't really have the money right now to look at switching fit types.

[TheArchitect]

This is just my personal feeling, but Tsunami has always been one of the softest wishboard targets. It was first on my list to drop out for experimenting with other cards.

As shift players, I think the possibility of layline showing up AGAINST us warrants a wish slot dedicated to getting rid of it, my personal choice for this was Reverent Silence because it's free if you need it immediately.

The same thing goes for 12 post as a deck, in light of it's prevalence at the last major tournament I attended (Feb Jupiter) I have ruination waiting in the wings.

--

I'm attempting to tune my shift deck up to be more gooder in the meta I saw last time at Juipiter, problem being that softens my deck to a lot of fair decks (less agro, more hate). I currently have Huntmaster #3 swapped out for a Scavenging Ooze, and have Void on my mind for a 2 of in the sideboard. Basically lowering my wish target count in favor of flat answers.

The RockFit seems more appealing in the overall meta, but I don't really have the money right now to look at switching fit types.


Basically my thoughts exactly. I still am not sold on leyline of the void. And Id cut a thrag but before a huntmaster, but everything else I agree on. We need more real SB cards right now.

Im having a really hard playing non-scapeshift nic fit decks now haha. Every time I do I really miss being able to topdeck an instawin even when Ive been essentially "losing" for the rest of the game or against a deck with no permission, just being able to say ok well is not die till hit 7 lands and Ill win. I also hate going to time, which I often do with rector or GBx "rock" variants.

That said, Ive been thinking GBW rock nic fit could be a strong contender. Rector is still awesome, but right now I think often times Id just wish that rector was a thoughtseize or abrupt decay since I need to interact immediately. Even if a rector could get a game breaking silver bullet, its pointless if we lose before we get that card out. Also, sigarda is a beast right now. Less people are playing terminus, and the GBx deathright aggro decks can't touch her. Also being able to fit 2-3 leylines of sanctity in the SB of GBW could be really good.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Great . . . I finally get rid of my fear of Show and Tell decks when I finally realize they can't be hated out as effectively as Dredge or Storm >_<

So, what's the best way to fight against our nightmare matchup?

[Qweerios]

Teeg also shuts down FoW in the OmniTell matchup.

@EpicLevelCommoner,

Blue has Negate and Jace, the Mind Sculptor
White has Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, and Gaddock Teeg
Red has Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast
...
And we all have Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, and Liliana.

That's about as good as it gets.

[Arianrhod]

Great . . . I finally get rid of my fear of Show and Tell decks when I finally realize they can't be hated out as effectively as Dredge or Storm >_<

So, what's the best way to fight against our nightmare matchup?

You run a blue version, so you're actually better set up than the rest of us. You have legit countermagic (Negate), and steal-yo-shit effects (Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation) that you can run.

[Arianrhod]

This is just my personal feeling, but Tsunami has always been one of the softest wishboard targets. It was first on my list to drop out for experimenting with other cards.

As shift players, I think the possibility of layline showing up AGAINST us warrants a wish slot dedicated to getting rid of it, my personal choice for this was Reverent Silence because it's free if you need it immediately.

The same thing goes for 12 post as a deck, in light of it's prevalence at the last major tournament I attended (Feb Jupiter) I have ruination waiting in the wings.

--

I'm attempting to tune my shift deck up to be more gooder in the meta I saw last time at Juipiter, problem being that softens my deck to a lot of fair decks (less agro, more hate). I currently have Huntmaster #3 swapped out for a Scavenging Ooze, and have Void on my mind for a 2 of in the sideboard. Basically lowering my wish target count in favor of flat answers.

The RockFit seems more appealing in the overall meta, but I don't really have the money right now to look at switching fit types.

Tsunami was better when blue decks....you know, existed.

Ruination is probably fine, but just be careful that you don't randomly dick yourself over with it. Be smart about it.

/barn@Architect: don't cut a Huntmaster. Cut Thrag or an extra ramp dude or something before cutting Hunts. Hunts is big game.

Reverent Silence probably isn't a horrible idea right now as a meta-call.

[TheArchitect]

Ill say this again, if was playing BUG nic fit, Id have 2-3 non FoW counterspells (probablu negate) and 3-4 FoW somewhere in the 75. Also I as long as other people are playing JtMS and show and tells, Id want 1-3 Take possessions in my SB. In the Show and tell matchup its obviously the shit. Better than o-ring, angel, etc. The enchantment comes into play attached to their griselbrand/omniscience so they cant draw/cast stuff for in response. Against esper, BUG still, UW miracles, etc you bring it in and steal their jace when hits 13 loyalty lol! (Or earlier for value). Steal batterskulls if you really need to too.

4 Therapies, 6 counterspells and 1-3 anti show and tell cards is about as good as it gets without adding stifle, wasteland and turn one/ pressure (delver/gofy).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

You run a blue version, so you're actually better set up than the rest of us. You have legit countermagic (Negate), and steal-yo-shit effects (Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation) that you can run.

I meant in general: though thanks for reminding me to run some spell pierces in the side. What I'm saying though is that you can't fight HyperGen, OmniTell, SneakAndShow, Reanimator etc the same way like Permit Hermit and Dredge.

[Arianrhod]

I meant in general: though thanks for reminding me to run some spell pierces in the side. What I'm saying though is that you can't fight HyperGen, OmniTell, SneakAndShow, Reanimator etc the same way like Permit Hermit and Dredge.

Oh. No -- there isn't like a combined achilles heel that they all share. They all have different weaknesses. Just a mix of discard + countermagic + board-based threats/interaction + beatdown....all you can do.


Ill say this again, if was playing BUG nic fit, Id have 2-3 non FoW counterspells (probablu negate) and 3-4 FoW somewhere in the 75. Also I as long as other people are playing JtMS and show and tells, Id want 1-3 Take possessions in my SB. In the Show and tell matchup its obviously the shit. Better than o-ring, angel, etc. The enchantment comes into play attached to their griselbrand/omniscience so they cant draw/cast stuff for in response. Against esper, BUG still, UW miracles, etc you bring it in and steal their jace when hits 13 loyalty lol! (Or earlier for value). Steal batterskulls if you really need to too.

4 Therapies, 6 counterspells and 1-3 anti show and tell cards is about as good as it gets without adding stifle, wasteland and turn one/ pressure (delver/gofy).

Take Possession doesn't work that way with Show and Tell. Same with Faith's Fetters and other auras. You can't attach them to whatever they Show.

[anwei]

I meant in general: though thanks for reminding me to run some spell pierces in the side. What I'm saying though is that you can't fight HyperGen, OmniTell, SneakAndShow, Reanimator etc the same way like Permit Hermit and Dredge.

Negate or envelop are much better than pierce, as explorer gets them lands to pay out of pierce...

Venser is my go-to. He's great off their show, answers resolved permanents, has applications in other matches, functions as removal with therapy, and recurs wondetfully, if you're running recurring nightmare.

[Arianrhod]

Negate or envelop are much better than pierce, as explorer gets them lands to pay out of pierce...

Venser is my go-to. He's great off their show, answers resolved permanents, has applications in other matches, functions as removal with therapy, and recurs wondetfully, if you're running recurring nightmare.

/barn.

I like exactly all of these points.

[Siiig]

Basically my thoughts exactly. I still am not sold on leyline of the void. And Id cut a thrag but before a huntmaster, but everything else I agree on. We need more real SB cards right now.

Im having a really hard playing non-scapeshift nic fit decks now haha. Every time I do I really miss being able to topdeck an instawin even when Ive been essentially "losing" for the rest of the game or against a deck with no permission, just being able to say ok well is not die till hit 7 lands and Ill win. I also hate going to time, which I often do with rector or GBx "rock" variants.

That said, Ive been thinking GBW rock nic fit could be a strong contender. Rector is still awesome, but right now I think often times Id just wish that rector was a thoughtseize or abrupt decay since I need to interact immediately. Even if a rector could get a game breaking silver bullet, its pointless if we lose before we get that card out. Also, sigarda is a beast right now. Less people are playing terminus, and the GBx deathright aggro decks can't touch her. Also being able to fit 2-3 leylines of sanctity in the SB of GBW could be really good.

I definitely look to yourself, Qweerios, and Kevin for advice on gearing this deck up. What has you unconvinced of Void? The way I look at it, it seriously helps us out against any dredge variant + reanimator. I would feel safe removing the ooze from the MB with 2 SB voids.

Current Idea:

2 Void -- Hate for reanimator / dredge
2 Sanctity -- Hate for ANT, and really anything black that wants to target you
3 REB -- Still need SOME board against blue, and we have so much we can side out against the fast decks. This is a sick way to prevent SnT vs reanimator G2
2 Extripate
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift -- Derp
1 Innocent Blood -- This can't not be here
1 Ruination -- Fun tech against a lot of decks actually. Ment for 12 post, but I've used it basically in place of Tsunami and to great effect against Maverick
1 Reverent Silence -- Wish tech against Layline of the whatever
1 Malestrome Pulse -- Targeted hate. Wishable answer to pro players (empty the warrens).


I haven't had any time to test my crop rotation moves against anyone, let alone relevant decks, and I don't have Karakas for reanimator / hypergen (The concept was for Hypergen). I may just put this idea back in my binder for a rainy day, and after I get a Karakas / Boseiju.

[jbone2016]

You run a blue version, so you're actually better set up than the rest of us. You have legit countermagic (Negate), and steal-yo-shit effects (Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation) that you can run.

I still like Dinrova Horror as option. Maybe as a one of?

[Ayotte]

I still like Dinrova Horror as option. Maybe as a one of?

I don't like a show and tell answer to be a one-of because you need it to be in your hand when they cast SnT on turn 1 or 2, and it's simply not feasible to factor the card's inclusion when you're making mulligan decisions if there is only one of them. Since Dinrova Horror seems like a pretty bad topdeck at any other time, I would prefer 3 Vensers.

[Kich867]

Those are three very odd matchups.

Also, there was someone playing Nic Fit who got a round 3 feature (meaning he was 3-0). Any idea if he was one of ours, or a wild one?

That guy made my soul bleed. He has surgical extraction in-hand and doesn't surgical the Hypergenesis in the graveyard in response to the cascade trigger. He would very likely have won with that alone. If I'm not mistaken he actually had double surgical.

It seemed like he was incredibly nervous though so that may have been it.

And to the above post: there are plenty of decks, especially blue ones, that run singleton answers to show and tell--they just run a lot of them. So that card with the inclusion of 3-4 other good answers to show and tell seems good. It's a unique threat against them and pretty heavy handedly sets them back, bouncing a creature off a SNT is a pretty big deal, making them discard a card on top of that puts them pretty far behind.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Horror is good if they cheat in Emrakul or Omniscience with Show and Tell, and can even bounce itself if they try to bluff by putting a land into play. The problem is that it doesn't stop Sneak Attack and Griselbrand from getting their abilities, Hypergenesis overloads aside.

[slave]

Hi guys.
Still very new to the different types pf this deck - working on a decklist, might go the white splash.
I've got Arbor, VE, S-TE, DRS, Blossom, Witness, Thrun, Thrag, P-Titan so far. It seems okay.
Thing is, I like the acceleration of this deck, but I don't wanna just rely on GSZ either. Have a couple Intent too.

I'm looking at a few creatures, still not sure on good/bad.
Living Wish? I really like it, I've been trying 2, thinking 3, and a small toolbox;
Vexing Shusher, Gaea's Herald & another Witness maybe, but what else?
I'd like a few hate creatures to help a tight spot....Teeg? Harmonic Sliver? Ooze?
I like the flexibility of Acidic Slime, but are there really any lands that this deck fears?
What else should I be looking at?

More importantly I guess;
Can we afford using sideboard space for this, or is it better to fight storm, dredge etc etc.?

[TheArchitect]

I definitely look to yourself, Qweerios, and Kevin for advice on gearing this deck up. What has you unconvinced of Void? The way I look at it, it seriously helps us out against any dredge variant + reanimator. I would feel safe removing the ooze from the MB with 2 SB voids.

Current Idea:

2 Void -- Hate for reanimator / dredge
2 Sanctity -- Hate for ANT, and really anything black that wants to target you
3 REB -- Still need SOME board against blue, and we have so much we can side out against the fast decks. This is a sick way to prevent SnT vs reanimator G2
2 Extripate
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift -- Derp
1 Innocent Blood -- This can't not be here
1 Ruination -- Fun tech against a lot of decks actually. Ment for 12 post, but I've used it basically in place of Tsunami and to great effect against Maverick
1 Reverent Silence -- Wish tech against Layline of the whatever
1 Malestrome Pulse -- Targeted hate. Wishable answer to pro players (empty the warrens).


I just dont think leyline of the void is necessary. Theres nothing Id take out for leyline against fair decks that KINDA use the GY (esperblade, GBx, etc) so its only for dredge/reanimator and also helps against hermit druid combo and ANT (past in flames). This deck already does really good against dredge, and not bad against reanimtor. I think there are better cards we run against ANT/Druid combo, and the best of those options, I think is mindbreak trap, which also randomly helps against stuff like omniscience, NO-Elves or even sneak and show sometimes (since they often go overmaster/cantrip>petal>S&T/sneak all in one turn). I dont like having to play it, but its better than leyline of the void at what it is needed for. If you have ALOT of dredge and reanimator in your area and just want to never lose them I would support void, but otherwise Id play mindbreak trap.

2 of Sancity in a non-white deck doesnt seem good. Again Mindbreak trap I think would be better.

I like the move of cutting reanimate. I love that card, but I usually just use it to turn a B-wish into a creature against an creature deck, and DRS being one of the most played creatures, makes that play a little less doable.

I would still want AT LEAST damnation in the side, but I could justify cutting perish/virtures ruin if there isnt much mav around. I think id still want pyroclasm though. Killing bobs, delvers, and golbins/fish/elves for just 1R is really nice.

I dont think reverent silence is needed, pulse can deal with leylines.

Keep in mind I have 2 abrupt decays in my "flex slot" and 60 cards, but otherwise the basic list. Personally, In the northeast, I would run this:
1 Thoughtseize ---- My most wished for spell, scapeshift is the only other card that comes close. I wouldnt cut this.
3 REB
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent blood
1 Sowing salt/ruination (not sure whats better, havent tested ruination)
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom pulse

I WANT 2 extipates in there, but I think they are the least needed. They arent that great against dredge and reanimator just makes you discard them. While they obviously are better than most of the other 60 cards in your deck in those matchups, they arent a silver bullet. I really like extirpate but not cause it is GY hate, because its a beast in the miracles matchup and because it is at least decent against any combo deck really. Also, REB is great against those 2 GY decks. It can hit breakthroughs, S&Ts, careful studies, cantrips, etc.

One thing to keep in mind, this actually happened to my last weekend. G2/3 dredge players will probably assume you have some GY hate and SB in antihate, thereby actually slowing their deck. I havent played with dredge in while, but usually the strategy is you take out your "combo" (dread return + fatty, and sometimes 1-4 breakthroughs too) for your anti hate cards. Which is awesome for us! Cause we can kill zombie tokens, narcomobeas and ichorids all day.



Take Possession doesn't work that way with Show and Tell. Same with Faith's Fetters and other auras. You can't attach them to whatever they Show.
Oh really? My bad :/ why does that not work, at what point do you choose what the auras are attached to?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Oh really? My bad :/ why does that not work, at what point do you choose what the auras are attached to?

Probably the same time you would name a card with Phyrexian Revoker

[Tao]

Has this changed recently (by recently I mean during the past 18 months)?

As far as I know this should work, they Show and Tell an Emrakul, you Fetters / Control Magic it.

[Tao]

Sry for double post but I wanted to share my updated BUG list. It works out nicely. If I were to play tournaments in the near future I would probably play it. I have looked into ELC's build and other posts and taken a few things from them. I like the idea to go with Primeval into Creeping Tar Pit, but I am a bit less greedy with the mana base.

I do not like to mulligan with Nic Fit so I try to keep the mana as stable as possible. Maybe I could cut 1 Forest though, I am not sure. I have been very happy with 3 Abrupt Decays in BUG. The card is great.


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek


//Sideboard
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

[Blastoderm]

Has this changed recently (by recently I mean during the past 18 months)?

As far as I know this should work, they Show and Tell an Emrakul, you Fetters / Control Magic it.

Angel of despair kills anything they put in and gives u a beater.

[Claymore]

You cannot use Auras or Clones with Show and Tell to kill the card they put into play since there is no target for before it comes into play. Angel of Despair and Oblivion Ring have triggered abilities for when they hit the battlefield, at which point there is a target to blow up.

Source: Tried it in a tournament with Phyrexian Metamorph and got Judge'd.

[Ayotte]

Claymore is correct. The difference between O ring and an aura is that O ring doesn't target something until the enter the battlefield has triggered. An aura needs a target upon coming into play, which doesn't exist with SnT.

[Arianrhod]

I just dont think leyline of the void is necessary. Theres nothing Id take out for leyline against fair decks that KINDA use the GY (esperblade, GBx, etc) so its only for dredge/reanimator and also helps against hermit druid combo and ANT (past in flames). This deck already does really good against dredge, and not bad against reanimtor. I think there are better cards we run against ANT/Druid combo, and the best of those options, I think is mindbreak trap, which also randomly helps against stuff like omniscience, NO-Elves or even sneak and show sometimes (since they often go overmaster/cantrip>petal>S&T/sneak all in one turn). I dont like having to play it, but its better than leyline of the void at what it is needed for. If you have ALOT of dredge and reanimator in your area and just want to never lose them I would support void, but otherwise Id play mindbreak trap.

2 of Sancity in a non-white deck doesnt seem good. Again Mindbreak trap I think would be better.

I like the move of cutting reanimate. I love that card, but I usually just use it to turn a B-wish into a creature against an creature deck, and DRS being one of the most played creatures, makes that play a little less doable.

I would still want AT LEAST damnation in the side, but I could justify cutting perish/virtures ruin if there isnt much mav around. I think id still want pyroclasm though. Killing bobs, delvers, and golbins/fish/elves for just 1R is really nice.

I dont think reverent silence is needed, pulse can deal with leylines.

Keep in mind I have 2 abrupt decays in my "flex slot" and 60 cards, but otherwise the basic list. Personally, In the northeast, I would run this:
1 Thoughtseize ---- My most wished for spell, scapeshift is the only other card that comes close. I wouldnt cut this.
3 REB
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent blood
1 Sowing salt/ruination (not sure whats better, havent tested ruination)
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom pulse

I WANT 2 extipates in there, but I think they are the least needed. They arent that great against dredge and reanimator just makes you discard them. While they obviously are better than most of the other 60 cards in your deck in those matchups, they arent a silver bullet. I really like extirpate but not cause it is GY hate, because its a beast in the miracles matchup and because it is at least decent against any combo deck really. Also, REB is great against those 2 GY decks. It can hit breakthroughs, S&Ts, careful studies, cantrips, etc.

One thing to keep in mind, this actually happened to my last weekend. G2/3 dredge players will probably assume you have some GY hate and SB in antihate, thereby actually slowing their deck. I havent played with dredge in while, but usually the strategy is you take out your "combo" (dread return + fatty, and sometimes 1-4 breakthroughs too) for your anti hate cards. Which is awesome for us! Cause we can kill zombie tokens, narcomobeas and ichorids all day.



Oh really? My bad :/ why does that not work, at what point do you choose what the auras are attached to?

Agreed that Sanctity is a bad idea in a non-white deck.

Mindbreak Trap alone isn't good enough against Spy. Here's why: Pact of Negation, Chancellor of the Annex. This is why I'm favoring Leyline of the Void in combination with Mindbreak Trap and Chalice of the Void. Spy is a DAMNED hard deck to effectively shut down, and I think that Leyline of the Void is necessary somewhere in the equation since they can't Pact it and they can't Daze it. Also, Reanimator IS making a comeback, whether we like it or not.

Cutting Reanimate is probably a mistake. Though, I had a bad experience when I experimented with cutting it -- basically the same thing that happened to Devin when he cut Innocent Blood. I'm pretty sure he's never cutting Blood, and I'm pretty sure I'm never cutting Reanimate.


Probably the same time you would name a card with Phyrexian Revoker

False.

Think of it this way.

Revoker, Pithing Needle, stuff like that trigger "AS they come into play." This means that Show and Tell resolves. You both hold out the card you're Showing. They Show Griselbee, you Show Revoker. They come into play at the same time. You get to see Griselbrand before you name with Revoker. However, since it's an "As" effect and not a "When" effect, you get to name Griselbrand before they can respond by drawing cards. If Revoker said "When Revoker comes into play," they would be able to respond to the trigger by activating Griselbrand.

This doesn't work with Auras, Clones, Metamorph, and so on. Here's why:

Think about an Aura. Auras target while they're on the stack. Fetters, let's say. You cast Fetters targeting Jace. Upon resolution, it attaches to Jace, and the blue player gets mad. Rector: if you Rector Fetters in, it comes INTO PLAY ALREADY ATTACHED to a permanent of your choice. This gets around Monguise's shroud, for example. However, when you Show and Tell, you and your opponent both Show a permanent. They Show Griselbrand, you Show Fetters. They're coming into play at the same time. Since they're coming in at the same time, Fetters has to go onto a permanent that was previously in play. It cannot attach to the Griselbrand since the demon wasn't in play for the Fetters to attach to. It's all timing. Take Possession fits here too.

Metamorph and the other Clones work the same way. It's timing. Clone and Griselbrand come in at the same time. Like Metamorph, Clone uses an "As" wording, so you'd think it should work. However, Revoker is just naming a card, whereas Clone requires the card to be copied to already be in play.

This all make sense?

------------

If anyone here will be at GP Charlotte, I'll be in attendance. I'll be wearing a black Minecraft T-shirt with a Creeper on it and black jeans on Saturday, so if you can track me down, feel free to chat. I'll be doing a lot of legacy win-a-boxes, and while I'm planning on playing 12post in most of them (because I think 12post is a fantastic deck for win-a-boxes), it's a safe bet that I'll be doing at least one with Rector and one with Scapewish. Rector will be obvious that it's me, because every basic in it is Guru, I have Korean Explorers, and a bunch of jap foils -- Scapewish will be harder to spot, but hopefully it'll be fully FBB dual'd by the time I'll be playing it, and there'll be a good bit of german foil in it.....including a pair of 7th foil Waldelfen that I just picked up =D

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Arianrhod: So . . . I'm confused. When do you choose a permanent with Rector into Fetters? What I'm saying isn't that Phyrexian Revoker doesn't work against Griselbrand, I'm saying it wouldn't work if it said "As ~ etb, choose target permanent", because "As" means that Griselbrand hasn't etb itself. In other words: names exist at all times, but bodies don't.

EDIT: Nevermind . . . reading is good tech.

[Siiig]

EDIT: Nevermind . . . reading is good tech.

Reading is actually the most tech card in magic.

Second only to an island

Is the hate on sanctity on none-white because the only method you have to cast it is on the open? I feel like for decks where sanctity is relevant it's really the only time you'll have a chance.

Sadly in my board I wasn't cutting thoughtseize, I just don't have one. I could pop it in place with duress, what do you find yourself grabbing it for?

[Arianrhod]

Reading is actually the most tech card in magic.

Second only to an island

Is the hate on sanctity on none-white because the only method you have to cast it is on the open? I feel like for decks where sanctity is relevant it's really the only time you'll have a chance.

Sadly in my board I wasn't cutting thoughtseize, I just don't have one. I could pop it in place with duress, what do you find yourself grabbing it for?

Pretty much @ Sanctity. Every time you think that that's the case, the game will throw you some corner case that'll prove you wrong. It's one of the reason why I disliked Omniscience in Rector. Sanctity is a very good, very strong card. But it doesn't win you the game by itself. It can help buy you time -- but that's all it can do. You still need to do other things with that time. It's like Pithing Needle. It doesn't aggressively work towards ending the game in-itself. That's why I think that other options are better. Something like Mindbreak Trap, for example, is far more damning to such a deck. Think about Belcher. If you're vs Belcher, and you have Leyline in your opener, and they go for Belcher, then that's great. Until they Nature's Claim it...or Burning Wish for a Hull Breach or a Reverent Silence or something. Leyline buys you time, but they still have a Belcher sitting in play that you need to worry about. Additionally, if they went for Empty the Warrens, you're just dead. Your Leyline does nothing. Now, consider if you had Mindbreak Trap instead. It also buys you time -- they can certainly dig into a new way to go off if you give them too much time. But they'll be going off again without a Belcher in play. They won't have been able to make 14 goblins on t1, and all of the resources that they used to get to that point will have been spent. It's just more damaging to them -- it actively WINS you the game as opposed to just buying time.

Thoughtseize is something you should work on getting at some point -- just one copy is fine. Duress is your go-to if you don't have a Thoughtseize, but you will lose some games to corner-cases where the Thoughtseize would be better....usually vs Show and Tell based combo. The most common use for BW->Thoughtseize is if they've just tutored for something that they can't cast, or like a Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the most common. But sometimes, it's just nice to have an additional 4x discard spells in your deck....even if they cost RRB instead of just B.

[TheArchitect]

@Leyline of the Void:
I havent tested the hermit druid/spy matchup much. I know MBT isn't actually that great against them, they will just duress/therapy it away if they suspect you have it. But leyline g2/3 has its weaknesses too. They can board in the belcher win, natures claim it, etc. If they have chancellor of the annex or negation pact, their hand will be a card slower, giving us a chance to put up a fight. Maybe leyline is needed, but I still think Id rather have extipate in that slot for its broader applications and accept my "not-running-FoW tax" but I'll have to wait and see.

@Reanimate:
I dont want to cut it, but I use it maybe 1 in 25 games and its usually just to get a dead huntmaster/thrag back. I think Id rather just have more slots of real SB slots.

@Auras off S&T:
Thanks for the clarification.

@Thoughtseize:
Its awesome, use duress at least for now. But ya you will wish you had thoughtseize in the S&T match. But having a way to turn BW into discard is essential. Often you have BW and shift in hand, and need to win through countermagic that turn. It can get stoneforge searches, or wished targets in the omniscience match. I have to say though its biggest use probably comes in during the combo matchup. It just gives you 4 more cards that interact with combo buy turn 3.

[anwei]

Sry for double post but I wanted to share my updated BUG list. It works out nicely. If I were to play tournaments in the near future I would probably play it. I have looked into ELC's build and other posts and taken a few things from them. I like the idea to go with Primeval into Creeping Tar Pit, but I am a bit less greedy with the mana base.

...


//Sideboard
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay


I ran a BUG list at a small event last night and liked having 1 Tar Pit, especially against my Goblins opponent, as he could generate quite a few chump blockers with all the Mountains I gave him.
(I also got to live the dream, against Dredge, and play T1 Explorer, T2 Tower->Thragtusk, T3 Land, Brainstorm, Explorer->Primeval Titan and pass with 9 lands in play T3.)

I left semi-satisified with my deck and 2 questions I'm kicking around for (non-"combo") BUG lists:
1. How do y'all like Strix? I ran 2, and they always seem like a super-wall in theory, especially against decks like RUG with few threats, but UB is awkward to play early if you're avoiding Wasteland and want G. Maybe I'm over-fetching basics to ramp "safely," but I have found that if I bin an explorer I have enough mana to want to play bigger things than a 1/1, and if I don't have explorer then I don't have enough fetches or the right ones to play it until turn 3-4, anyway.

2. On disruption: I saw Tao running 6 discard maindeck + 4 in the board, with no counters. That seems risky right now, when discard is so prevalent that Leyline of Sanctity is showing up in a lot of combo boards. I ran into a Cheerios deck last night and discard wasn't worth much. Since they play like a 1-card combo deck (with a pronounced ability to stall), any top-decked Glimpse wins the game, and no amount of Therapy for Orinthopter can clear out their hand enough to stop that. I didn't have Memoricide, and probably will, but Leyline still turns that off. (I was running 4 Therapy, 2 Thoughtseize maindeck; 3 Negate, 2 Mindbreak Trap in the board.)
Don't you want some counters somewhere in the 75?

[Tao]

@SnT/Fetters/Emrakul: oops, learned something new there, always thought it worked

1. I had played them and slowly reduced their numbers until 0 were left. I haven't though about why I wasn't perfectly satisfied but your argument sounds pretty convincing. I think that is it.

2.
My reasoning is that the Combo matchup is bad enough that I can't play around anything. My plan is to mulligan into a T1 Discard spell (maybe two or one and a Surgical) and cross my fingers. I don't think there is much else that you can to against Combo. They have a 40% chance of having Leyline in their opening hand, and if they do so they win, I am willing to live with that. Negate is solid, but imo a bit too slow. I want T1 disruption.

Mindbreak Trap does that but currently there are two Combo decks (Sneak and Tell, Reanimator) in the DtB forum against which it is completely dead. So if I spend two of my SB slots to fight Combo they shouldn't be dead vs the two most played Combo decks, right? Same thing with Angel of Despair which is great against Show and Tell decks but dead against Reanimator, Elves or Storm Combo.

There are not nearly enough SB slots to cover all fronts and I also do not want to spend 15 slots to fight Combo. I want some slots to keep my edge against fair decks too. Decay is amazing and having one is often the difference in beating Delver or not. Damnations are great against all fair aggressive decks (Tribal, Jund, BUG Aggro, RUG, Maverick) and Wurmcoil is insane against Jund and midrange BUG.

[HoneyT]

@Tao:

You're BUG list is actually very similar to mine as far as the maindeck is concerned. I'm still very happy with Negate in the board however.

On another note, just to let you all know, I've finally updated my signature with my current lists like the rest of you cool kids! So enjoy!

[sherko7]

So finally, gonna play this baby this weekend at a local event:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Acidic Slime

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil


SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

I'm still torn on whether or not I should be playing DRS or not. I haven't tested it much (used to be 2 Innocent Blood) but as I tested it earlier today with a couple of blue decks it gives me the ability to not rely on Veteran Explorer as much (therefore not ramping my opponent as well) against UWx/URx control as well as SnT (buying a turn helps!). Helps VS the Reanimator matchup as well.

If I were to rid of the 2 DRS, most probably will be +1 Innocent Blood, +1 Thragtusk. Feels like the 2nd Thragtusk is not as needed, but our meta has a ton of Burn and that would certainly help. I am also trying to consider slipping in the 3rd Abrupt Decay somewhere in the main, maybe instead of the Innocent Blood or 2nd DRS.

The biggest problem for me, as a noob to this deck, is to decide which hands to mull. I usually mull loosely (as I used to play Dredge, and with that deck its extremely easy to just shuffle it up and draw less), but with this deck I can't seem to decide which hands are keep-able sometimes, and it usually ends with me losing the game because of that.

As for the SB, if I were to include the 3rd Abrupt Decay in the MD I'd certainly cut the 1 in the SB. Golgari Charm is a great utility spell, especially against Elves. If I were to cut that I'd probably add a 3rd Engineered Plague or the 4th P. Deed. I'm quite low on surgical effects, but that's because I don't own the others. If I had Extirpates I'd probably swap them in with the Memoricide. 3 is max though.

Duress is there because I will NOT throw cash on those Thoughtseizes. I know its good, but Duress will do for now.

I'm going to need more ways to deal with SnT though, I'm thinking more Diabolic Edicts for now, as well as a one-off Obstinate Baloth to improve the Jund matchups somewhat. Or maybe a Wurmcoil Engine or 2?

[bosoxdave]

That guy made my soul bleed. He has surgical extraction in-hand and doesn't surgical the Hypergenesis in the graveyard in response to the cascade trigger. He would very likely have won with that alone. If I'm not mistaken he actually had double surgical.

It seemed like he was incredibly nervous though so that may have been it.

And to the above post: there are plenty of decks, especially blue ones, that run singleton answers to show and tell--they just run a lot of them. So that card with the inclusion of 3-4 other good answers to show and tell seems good. It's a unique threat against them and pretty heavy handedly sets them back, bouncing a creature off a SNT is a pretty big deal, making them discard a card on top of that puts them pretty far behind.

He had a double extraction and something else that didn't do anything. His turn before the cascade he activated Lili's plus one and pitched one of the extractions. A previous activation had a hypergenesis in the GY. I was about ready to yell at my computer when he didn't respond to the cascade trigger there.

[Blastoderm]

So finally, gonna play this baby this weekend at a local event:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Acidic Slime

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil


SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

I'm still torn on whether or not I should be playing DRS or not. I haven't tested it much (used to be 2 Innocent Blood) but as I tested it earlier today with a couple of blue decks it gives me the ability to not rely on Veteran Explorer as much (therefore not ramping my opponent as well) against UWx/URx control as well as SnT (buying a turn helps!). Helps VS the Reanimator matchup as well.

If I were to rid of the 2 DRS, most probably will be +1 Innocent Blood, +1 Thragtusk. Feels like the 2nd Thragtusk is not as needed, but our meta has a ton of Burn and that would certainly help. I am also trying to consider slipping in the 3rd Abrupt Decay somewhere in the main, maybe instead of the Innocent Blood or 2nd DRS.

The biggest problem for me, as a noob to this deck, is to decide which hands to mull. I usually mull loosely (as I used to play Dredge, and with that deck its extremely easy to just shuffle it up and draw less), but with this deck I can't seem to decide which hands are keep-able sometimes, and it usually ends with me losing the game because of that.

As for the SB, if I were to include the 3rd Abrupt Decay in the MD I'd certainly cut the 1 in the SB. Golgari Charm is a great utility spell, especially against Elves. If I were to cut that I'd probably add a 3rd Engineered Plague or the 4th P. Deed. I'm quite low on surgical effects, but that's because I don't own the others. If I had Extirpates I'd probably swap them in with the Memoricide. 3 is max though.

Duress is there because I will NOT throw cash on those Thoughtseizes. I know its good, but Duress will do for now.

I'm going to need more ways to deal with SnT though, I'm thinking more Diabolic Edicts for now, as well as a one-off Obstinate Baloth to improve the Jund matchups somewhat. Or maybe a Wurmcoil Engine or 2?

I would play another abrupt decay main. It's just so good vs everything. With all that burn in your meta you're gonna pray you have one in your hand when they cast sulfuric vortex before you get thragtusk. Vs Jund I think you just want an explorer to die. Once you cast grave titan I don't see how they can win. I've been liking deathrites more and more recently only due to the fact that show and tell is running rampant. I always gsz for a deathrite shaman for ramp as I don't want to give them lands. I'm playing 3 natural order maindeck so I'm running 3. Reanimator seems to be getting more popular atm so it's great vs that also.

[kabards]

As for the SB, if I were to include the 3rd Abrupt Decay in the MD I'd certainly cut the 1 in the SB. Golgari Charm is a great utility spell, especially against Elves. If I were to cut that I'd probably add a 3rd Engineered Plague or the 4th P. Deed. I'm quite low on surgical effects, but that's because I don't own the others. If I had Extirpates I'd probably swap them in with the Memoricide. 3 is max though.

Duress is there because I will NOT throw cash on those Thoughtseizes. I know its good, but Duress will do for now.


Remove the 1pc Liliana of the Veil then change it to abrupt decay. You can also put Inquisition of Kozilek if you have maybe 2 Duress / 1 Inquisition of Kozilek. Remove the Golgari Charm and a piece of Duress Pernicious Deed can handle that, put in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. And take note if you have carpet of flowers in play and if you drawn another carpet of flowers you can declare the triggered during 2nd main phase so that it will become more abusive :laugh:

[PollePotDK]

Hi guys,

Long time lurker and few posts, but have a question about Recurring Nightmare and Yosei.

When you sac Yosei to the RN cost, in which order do Yosei's trigger and RN place ón the stack? Will Yosei or RN resolve first?

Thanks in advance

[Philipp2293]

Since sacrificing Yosei is part of RN activations cost, it will hit the gy and then trigger. Only after Yosei trigger is done resolving and both players pass priority the Nightmare activation resolves.

[TerribleTim68]

Since sacrificing Yosei is part of RN activations cost, it will hit the gy and then trigger. Only after Yosei trigger is done resolving and both players pass priority the Nightmare activation resolves.

In that explanation, you're saying you can sac Yosei to RN, then return Yosei?

[Viridia]

No, you have to assign targets then pay costs, which means you can't get back the creature you're sacrificing.

[anwei]

In that explanation, you're saying you can sac Yosei to RN, then return Yosei?

No.
You activate Nightmare's ability, naming a target and paying costs (saccing/bouncing) - it goes on the stack. As Yosei is sacced, its trigger goes higher on the stack. When Priority is passed, Yosei resolved, then priority is passed, and Nightmare resolves.
The key point is that Nightmare needs a legal target when activated.

(Note that the timing works out the same as with Cabal Therapy / Explorer - you cast therapy, targetting and paying costs to put it on the stack, then Explorer triggers and gets lands first)

[sherko7]

I would play another abrupt decay main. It's just so good vs everything. With all that burn in your meta you're gonna pray you have one in your hand when they cast sulfuric vortex before you get thragtusk. Vs Jund I think you just want an explorer to die. Once you cast grave titan I don't see how they can win. I've been liking deathrites more and more recently only due to the fact that show and tell is running rampant. I always gsz for a deathrite shaman for ramp as I don't want to give them lands. I'm playing 3 natural order maindeck so I'm running 3. Reanimator seems to be getting more popular atm so it's great vs that also.

Yeah I figured I really needed room for that 3rd Abrupt Decay main. Really tempted to put an Obstinate Baloth main though... But it's already crowded as it is. :eek:


Remove the 1pc Liliana of the Veil then change it to abrupt decay. You can also put Inquisition of Kozilek if you have maybe 2 Duress / 1 Inquisition of Kozilek. Remove the Golgari Charm and a piece of Duress Pernicious Deed can handle that, put in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. And take note if you have carpet of flowers in play and if you drawn another carpet of flowers you can declare the triggered during 2nd main phase so that it will become more abusive :laugh:

Maybe I will try cutting 1 Liliana. It has rarely been the bomb I thought it would be during playtesting, but when its good, its great! :laugh: I'd play more Extirpate effects if I had them, maybe I'll try going to the tournament area early this time to see if I can get some. :smile:

Will be doing some last minute testing today with 3 Vampire Nighthawk main deck. It seems like a good card against Jund and other aggressive decks, as well as being able to randomly poke an SnT'd fatty to death. I'm cutting DRS and Acidic Slime for it though, so they better be worth it. :laugh:

[anwei]

Maybe I will try cutting 1 Liliana. It has rarely been the bomb I thought it would be during playtesting, but when its good, its great! :laugh: I'd play more Extirpate effects if I had them, maybe I'll try going to the tournament area early this time to see if I can get some. :smile:

Will be doing some last minute testing today with 3 Vampire Nighthawk main deck. It seems like a good card against Jund and other aggressive decks, as well as being able to randomly poke an SnT'd fatty to death. I'm cutting DRS and Acidic Slime for it though, so they better be worth it. :laugh:

I've really been surprised to not like Lily as well. The inherent card advantage and high curve of the deck frequently means the discard ability is not very exciting against fair decks, which can dump their hands faster (or I dump it for them), and the sacrifice ability is underwhelming when I already have decent removal and ways to deal with shroud guys. It seems reasonable against combo, where both abilities can be quite relevant (especially if big monsters are involved), but I'm not sure that's the best card for the job.
Other perspectives?

I've found Deathrite fairly reasonable - the toolbox abilities can obviously be nice, it's a decent ramp spell when you don't have explorer (or don't want to give that particular opponent the lands), its "evasion" is very good at that point in your curve (which the common 3-5 drops lack), and the huge target on its head usually means it doesn't stick around long enough to non-bo your Deed (which an the obvious objection).

[Tao]

Liliana is good in BUG, because you have less other removal (no Rector/Moat, B. Wish, P. Fire) and because you can draw cards with Jace. Also Lili/Jace is a classic combo. She is unplayable in Scapewish because you can't discard anything to it (you need all your lands and spells).

In GB/w and G/B she is okay I think, good but not insane.

[sherko7]

Attended my first ever tourney with GB Nic Fit and went 3-2... Winning 1 pack and got a Blood Crypt, lol. Entrance fee was about $5 so not bad. :laugh:

Round 1: vs ANT

Just my luck. Game 1 I was on the draw and he opened with Scalding Tarn into Island and Ponder. So I assumed SnT! The dreaded matchup! Cabal Therapy for SnT and I was shocked to see all business: Past in Flames, Tendrils, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Burning Wish and lands... Just my luck, I thought. He hit a cantrip turn 2 and I thought he was about to go off, luckily, he must have bricked so on my turn I cast Veteran Explorer, Flashback Therapy naming Burning Wish. He got additional lands apparently. I proceeded to Hymn him on the same turn and got rid of Cabal Ritual and his Cabal Therapy. Casted Thrun the next turn and he decided to go off... He Tendrils me for 14 and I was down to 5. I proceeded to hit him 7 per turn with Thrun and Treetop Village until he eventually conceded. Game 2 was a bit less interesting. I decided to keep a hand with 1 land, Therapy, Duress, SDT, GSZ and a Thragtusk I think. He Duress'd on his first turn and rid of my Duress. I Therapy, naming LED and got one! He had 2 more Therapy and some lands and I guess he decided he could slow me down while he tried assembling what he needed. Unfortunately I top deck'd more Cabal Therapies, GSZ'd Eternal Witness to get Duress, and so on until finally killing him. with I think Garruk PH.

Match: 1-0, Games: 2-0

Round 2: vs Burn

Oh how I dreaded this match up. I was against a friend and I knew what he was packing. He led with the usual Goblin Guide and I with Veteran Explorer blocking his GG on the next turn. Abrupt Decay'd his GG EoT and decided to GSZ for Ooze with 1 more mana open, eating GG who met a Lightning Bolt shortly after. I was down to 11, and threw down a Thragtusk who ate Chain Lightning. I proceeded to beat face with the Beast token with SDT in play. Unfortunately I was top decking lands and lands and another SDT with no way to shuffle :( Finally died to a double Fireblast and Flame Rift. Game 2, I just died, plain and simple, to a Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide and Hellspark Elemental. After the game, I talked with @kabards and he suggested I add a Kitchen Finks MD.

Match: 1-1, Games: 2-2

Round 3: vs Elves

Was playing my brother, lol. I knew everything he ran as we played a lot at home. I was glad to keep a hand with 2 Cabal Therapies and top deck'd another before proceeding to beat down with Thrun for the win. Games 2 and 3, he just combo'd off as I had kept really loose hands. We agreed to give him a sweep to increase his chances of getting to the top.

Match: 1-2, Games 3-4

Round 4: vs Manaless Dredge

I thought this was going to be the last round, and I knew what my opponent was playing. Having similar experience, I knew the deck very well and I felt very confident going into that match. G1, I was on the play, kept a hand with 1 land, and threw down a Deathrite Shaman. He proceeded to discard Stinkweed Imp. I drew a card and passed the turn, no land drop. During his draw step he asked whether I would let him Dredge, I removed the Imp but he decided to cycle Street Wraith. He had 2 more Wraiths and Gitaxian Probe in hand and that was that! G2 he kept a really slow hand with Dakmor Salvage being the only Dredger. I Therapy'd for Street Wraith but missed. A few turns later I was able to ramp up with Explorer, get an Ooze online and proceed to beat face for the win. G3 was pretty much the same but with him keeping a worse hand (no Dredger plus 2 Narcos).

Match 2-2, Games 5-5

Round 5: vs The Gate!

This match up was pretty fun. A friend of mine had a similar deck, but with Phyrexian Obliterator instead of Abyssal Persecutor and I had tested against that deck and we were about 50-50. G1 he had an extremely disrupting hand with Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach (binning my own Hymn!) and then I think 1 or 2 more Thoughtseizes. He then proceeded to beat me up with Abyssal Persecutor and and Liliana online. I decided to just scoop to save time. G2 I had a pretty good hand with Therapy, Vet Explorer, 2 lands plus Treetop Village and GSZ plus something. I blind Therapy for Thoughtseize, hitting none while he top decked the Thoughtseize. The game went on as he stalled me with Dystopia while I was beating him with Treetop Village. I was able to grab a Pernicious Deed while my Garruk PH was stalling his Dystopia, game over. G3, I had a great hand with ramp, DRS and disruption. His double Abyssal Persecutors died to a Pernicious Deed without even getting 1 swing. Volrath's Stronghold and Eternal Witness were the tag team here, recurring Maelstrom Pulses and Abrupt Decays turn and turn again. He had to keep killing the Witness as he was trying to protect his Liliana. Finally, game ended with Treetop Village and Grave Titan beatdown.

Match 3-2, Games 7-6

Not bad for my first tourney with Nic Fit! I really needed a Diabolic Intent but the guy I was buying it from didn't push through so I decided to sub Liliana in. I am not impressed with Lili in the deck, she's good, but probably not with the GB build. Another guy I am not really impressed with at the moment is Grave Titan. Yes, he is huge, kills Planeswalkers, etc... But Prime Time does the same more often than not. I might put in a Kitchen Finks in his place and give it a shot. Kitchen Finks buys me time against the more agressive decks, plus its a warm body for Cabal Therapy! Also, as @kabards suggested to me, I really needed another 3 drop to GSZ (I only had 2 Eternal Witness and true enough, more often than not there are times where I don't need to nab a card from my GY).

Lovin this!:tongue:

[CRich3]

I really like Kitchen Finks in this deck. I wish I could fit it in Rector. It provides a lot of card advantage with the sad outlets and it is really good against aggressive decks and burn.

I seen someone talk about cutting memoricide, I think I will do the same. I can never get it early enough to use of when I want it. I think I will add thoughtseize back.

Abrupt decay in the SB has been amazing for me lately. And I haven't missed extirpate.

I have been playing around with Restoration Angel because I need a 4 drop. Running 2 Baneslayers is good but too often I get stuck at 4 lands. I want it to be Ifh-Biff but I don't have one right now. Thrun MD has been amazing.

Well that's all the notes I have. I might start playing more often since we now have legacy 2x a week.

[MrIggins]

I might consider Obstinate Baloth instead of Kitchen Finks if you're having aggro troubles and there are that many Hymn to Tourach decks in your metagame. I also can't recommend 1x Sakura-Tribe Elder highly enough, he does a lot of work as a guaranteed secondary ramp source that can be a Therapy body, blocks, and gets you to your Thragtusks which should usually be enough to get you there.

Have you posted an updated list recently, CRich?

[sherko7]

I might consider Obstinate Baloth instead of Kitchen Finks if you're having aggro troubles and there are that many Hymn to Tourach decks in your metagame. I also can't recommend 1x Sakura-Tribe Elder highly enough, he does a lot of work as a guaranteed secondary ramp source that can be a Therapy body, blocks, and gets you to your Thragtusks which should usually be enough to get you there.

Have you posted an updated list recently, CRich?

Thing is, every time I GSZ for 4 I would almost always want a Thrun, but whenever I GSZ for 3 I would sometimes not need to get something from my yard. :)

[MrIggins]

Thing is, every time I GSZ for 4 I would almost always want a Thrun, but whenever I GSZ for 3 I would sometimes not need to get something from my yard. :)

In that case I recommend you just Zenith for an Ooze plus an activation, get a two-drop plus top activation, etc; I have been playing 2x Thragtusk as my gaining life card and it's been good, although I guess Finks is really good against decks like Jund in addition to just being a roadblock against aggro, so maybe it's worth another look.

[CRich3]

I might consider Obstinate Baloth instead of Kitchen Finks if you're having aggro troubles and there are that many Hymn to Tourach decks in your metagame. I also can't recommend 1x Sakura-Tribe Elder highly enough, he does a lot of work as a guaranteed secondary ramp source that can be a Therapy body, blocks, and gets you to your Thragtusks which should usually be enough to get you there.

Have you posted an updated list recently, CRich?

Obstinate Baloth and Kitchen Finks serve the same purpose but against burn that 1 mana matters. Also against DRS you can make your opponent use him early for rector. I have more Jund than fast decks so I'm sticking with the Baloth.

I posted a list a while back. Before SCG cincy.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My current BUG Fit List:

14 Green Sun's Zenith Targets
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Alternative Win-Cons
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor[/u]
1 Batterskull

9 Utility Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Intent

11 Removal and Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm

3 Utility Lands/PrimeTime Targets
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit

8 Fetches
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Duals
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

7 Basics
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Island

15 Sideboard
4 Force of Will
3 Negate
1 Counterspell
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Thoughts:
-Dryad Arbor: I honestly believe this land creature makes up for the fact Deed kills it. In fact, it pretty much exists to eat removal (land and creature) or to chump block when Vet isn't around.
-Sakura-Tribe Elder: As opposed to Dryad Arbor, Deathrite Shaman never did much in my original list, hence the swap to STE.
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor: No reason not to run 3. Actually also helps to enable a transformational sideboard against combo (i.e. blue count too low before).
-Golgari Charm: Between all the X/1 utility creatures/swarms, expensive enchantments that could ruin my strategy, and the lack of a "can't be regen" clause on Deed, Golgari Charm pulls a lot more weight than Damnation, even if it overlaps A LOT with Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed.
-Counterspells: The only real defense against Show and Tell decks that run Leyline of Sanctity is to counter their Show and Tell. Not too sold on the 4-3-1 split though.

[Arianrhod]

So, a funny anecdote for you guys from GP Charlotte. I entered a win-a-box on Sunday morning with Rector. Round 1 is vs Belcher. He drops Belcher on t1, but only has a Taiga as a mana source. His hand (which I know from Land Grant) is Belcher #2 + Chrome Mox (with nothing to imprint). My turn is Explorer pass / pray-you-don't-draw-a-LED. He bricks his draw and ships back.

I go Tower -> sac Explorer -> Therapy you naming Belcher (see Desperate Ritual + Chrome Mox), Fetters your Belcher.

He looked annoyed, and then like 4 turns later I killed him with Baneslayer.

I board in the Chalices, the Sanctities, the Mindbreaks, the Nether Void, and the Cranial twins. I mull to FOUR in game two without hitting any of the above -or- a Therapy (14 possible cards that I could have hit in my 7, 6, 5, or 4). I accept that I'm dead and keep land, land, Tribe-Elder, Top -- which isn't a horrible keep because I have a respectable chance of hitting a Deed or topping into Mindbreak. He durdles for a turn or two, I fail to draw anything / find anything with Top, and then he flips his deck. Pretty standard.

Game three I keep my hand of Sanctity, Green Sun, Explorer, Rector, land, land. I lead with Explorer, he leads with 16 goblins. I Zenith up Rusalka and pass. He puts me to 5 after I block one token with Explorer, which nets me two lands, giving me four in play with none in hand. I rip Savannah off the top, slam Rector and pass her through Rusalka to deed for 0. He doesn't recover enough to do anything to me before I kill him.

Beating Belcher with 0 effective sideboard cards is fun!

Then round 2 I played against Elves, and failed to draw a Deed, a Rector, the Moat, or any of my sideboard cards with a Top+shuffles going the whole time across both games. So frustrating. My opponent actually literally couldn't have played looser. There were multiple turns where I was just dead on board and he simply didn't kill me. My deck just decided that it didn't feel like winning =/

Looked like it was going to be High Tide in the finals, too, which would have been an easy win =/ Sad times.

In happier news, I picked up my last two Jap foil Therapies finally, and also found a Jap foil Maelstrom Pulse. Along with my now signed-in-silver Gurus, Rector's looking quite pretty =D One of these days I'll have to take more pictures of her to put up in the pimp thread. I'm currently at 41/61 maindeck that are final-pimped (aside from artist signatures). 6 of those are going to take approximately forever to find/acquire (the Tops and Heaths). The other 14 shouldn't be insanely hard, though....hell, two of them are "easy" -- the Baneslayers.

Finally, I'll have a new BUG list for you guys to look at sometime in the next day or two. One of my friends gave me the core idea for it, and I begrudgingly built it in the car on the way down. I was really unsure about it, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it's actually probably/possibly quite good, because unlike the other BUG versions, it functions via creatures. It involves a 6-drop mono-blue creature that's legal in standard right now. I'll let you guys take some guesses while I reconstruct the list from my memory. I will also note that he did manage to go 3-1 in the Legacy Challenge with it on Saturday night.

[Viridia]

I'm interested, and guessing it's either the new sphinx (unlikely) or DeadEye Navigator.

Keep us updated!

[Arianrhod]

I'm interested, and guessing it's either the new sphinx (unlikely) or DeadEye Navigator.

Keep us updated!

Got it in one! It's a Deadeye list =) I'm working on re-building it now (I derped and gave him the list and didn't keep a copy for myself). I'll post it up when I'm done.

[Claymore]

I too was at GP Charlotte, but playing Rock. I went 2-1-1 in the Legacy Challenge on Saturday and played Modern on Sunday, but I did see a guy playing BUG Fit. Didn't get to watch when he was next to me, but I saw Therapies and Explorers.

[Arianrhod]

I too was at GP Charlotte, but playing Rock. I went 2-1-1 in the Legacy Challenge on Saturday and played Modern on Sunday, but I did see a guy playing BUG Fit. Didn't get to watch when he was next to me, but I saw Therapies and Explorers.

Big mulatto/black guy? That would have been my friend Kyle =)

[Claymore]

Yeah, that's it. I was pretty stoked to see a Fit running around but didn't get to see how he did. Any idea?

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, that's it. I was pretty stoked to see a Fit running around but didn't get to see how he did. Any idea?

He went X-1 in the challenge. He did a few win-a-boxes on Sunday I know, but I don't think he won any of them. Might have split one. I know he got paired up against my 12post deck in round 1 of one of the win-a-boxes and my friend who was borrowing it bent him over with it....which I actually kind of think that was just bad luck on Kyle's part, because this list is designed to be resilient to 12-post. Don't really know specifics though....Kyle isn't exactly great at relating details of games and like what worked and what didn't and such.

[vilnico]

Hi Guys,

I am preparing for the next Legacy GP in Europe, and I have a quick Sideboard question. Let's assume I play a GBw Rector version of Nic Fit. What would you better sideboard against Jund ?
I've been in a local tournament last week end, and played 2 Junds. At that time I only had a 4th Decay and a Sigarda to board in (already 3 Deed maindeck, and Deed is not so so cool as you have to play it "active" because of adverse Decays)
Sigarda is an insta-win, and actually made me win the 1st Jund in rounds.
And I lose to the 2nd Jund in Top4, because of heavy discard. (and my opponent had quite the regular start Thoughtseize into Bob into Lili into BBE into stuffs 2 times, which does not help a lot)

So I have been thinking, should I SB Leyline of Sanctity against Jund ?
I could also board Infest instead of Deed to wipe his creatures away (as Deed is not as good as usual), but the holding the aggressivity is not so much my concern. (I mean Explorer and Rector are good "not quite Moat" enough to stall the game)

What are your experiences against Jund ?
Thx for the feedback.

[Arianrhod]

Hi Guys,

I am preparing for the next Legacy GP in Europe, and I have a quick Sideboard question. Let's assume I play a GBw Rector version of Nic Fit. What would you better sideboard against Jund ?
I've been in a local tournament last week end, and played 2 Junds. At that time I only had a 4th Decay and a Sigarda to board in (already 3 Deed maindeck, and Deed is not so so cool as you have to play it "active" because of adverse Decays)
Sigarda is an insta-win, and actually made me win the 1st Jund in rounds.
And I lose to the 2nd Jund in Top4, because of heavy discard. (and my opponent had quite the regular start Thoughtseize into Bob into Lili into BBE into stuffs 2 times, which does not help a lot)

So I have been thinking, should I SB Leyline of Sanctity against Jund ?
I could also board Infest instead of Deed to wipe his creatures away (as Deed is not as good as usual), but the holding the aggressivity is not so much my concern. (I mean Explorer and Rector are good "not quite Moat" enough to stall the game)

What are your experiences against Jund ?
Thx for the feedback.

Sigarda isn't in your maindeck? o_O

Jund is REALLY easy if they don't hit Liliana of the Veil in the first three turns, and REALLY hard if they do. Leyline of Sanctity helps a ton -- considering that you're in Europe and thus have a higher combo meta, I would probably recommend 3 copies.

Deed is still fine against Jund. Goyf and Bob are their big cards, and sweeping all that crap away is good. Basically, the game against Jund goes as such: hope that they don't hit Liliana (Therapy this if you can), sweep away their goyfs/bobs/deathrites, then Sigarda FTW. Sun Titan is also ****ing ENORMOUS, and they can't stop him from bringing back Deed, as Deathrite doesn't exile enchantments. Rector can be big game if your opponent doesn't realize that Deathrite stops her, or if you sweep away Deathrite beforehand. Jund is almost entirely kold to Moat. They have Liliana ults and PFire (both of which are turned off by Leyline of Sanctity), and Deathrite Shaman as outs to Moat. That's it. Some lists run like a 1-of Pulse, but by and large, Moat will buy you a ton of time if not win you the game on the spot. If you're on the Moat plan, I'd recommend boarding in Leyline of the Void, as well -- that removes 80% of the Deathrite fodder that actually hurts you, while buying you time by keeping Goyf small and PFire offline.

But yeah. tl;dr: Sigarda. She's strictly better than their deck.

---------------------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Fierce Empath
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Snake
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Frost Titan
1 Palinchron

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Stroke of Genius

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: Deadeye Navigator (//engine)
SB: Vampire Hexmage (//planeswalker hate)
SB: Bojuka Bog (//graveyard hate)
SB: Karakas (//forms a lock with Venser)
SB: Volrath's Stronghold (//recursion engine)
SB: Acidic Slime (//land/enchant/artifact hate)
SB: Faceless Butcher (//targeted kill)
SB: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (//Empty the Warrens sweep / aggro pressure)
SB: Maga, Traitor to Mortals (//infinite kill)
SB: Phyrexian Revoker (//name a problem)
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap


This is the updated list, as I would consider playing. Kyle's original list had a slightly different maindeck and sideboard, but we discussed a few changes after the event (such as cutting the 2 maindeck Abrupt Decays that it was running).

His list wasn't originally running Palinchron, but as I sat here rebuilding it, I was thinking to myself....that's like the easiest way to make infinite mana ever....-and- there's a ton of things to do with infinite mana once you have it. Wish->Maga just straight up kills, as does the Stroke and Blue Sun which are just hanging out for value otherwise. Infinite blink lets you draw your deck with EWit and a Brainstorm, or "just" Venser all of their permanents back to their hand.

I don't know if the Palinchron engine is actually good enough, but it seems like it's worth testing. The list overall is very untuned, but I honestly like where it's going better than I do the Future Sight or Panoptic Mirror lists, for one very simple reason: its "combo element" if you will is in its creatures. It still gets to run dudes, and Nic Fit likes to run dudes. It likes to gunk up the board with value chumpers that it can bring back later for even more value. Wish gives you a backup Deadeye in case your first one gets dealt with, while also providing you with a lot of flexible bullets for various problems and board states. It also gives you easy access to Volrath's Stronghold -- one of the few times you'll see me recommend the card. I built the wishboard to have a Scapewish-esque mentality for now -- it has a 5-card board with 10 bullets, which is the same as Scapewish. Eventually, however, I expect that one or two bullets will be dropped for additional sideboard space. I'll say again that this thing is very rough (it was just birthed on the 10-hour ride down to Charlotte), but I think that it has more promise than Future Sight and Panoptic Mirror combined.

[Viridia]

BUG - Check
Nic Fit - Check
Infinite Combo - Check

I'm in. :D

I'll go ahead and change up the lands as usual tho, as i prefer running 8 fetched and 5 duals rather then 6 fetch 7 duals ;)

Is the Frost Titan really necessary? Yes you get to tap down their field, however with anything else you will get the easy win aswell, and i don't think Frost Titan is the bomb the deck wants, how ever good it may be.

Also I'm not sure if you want to be running the Blue Sun's Zenith/Stroke of Genius, if you make infinite mana it's obviously auto-win, but i'm not sure if it's good enought for "just value", as it only really becomes good at X>3.


No more comments from me for now, i'll see if i can get the missing cards and get testing! :D

[TheArchitect]

I like the Deadeye Idea. Ive been wanting to get into a combo oriented BUG nic fit list lately, and this might be my ticket.

Things Id definitely change would be the fetches and the X draw spells. If you have infinite mana you can just bounce your ewits or empaths till you get frost titan (or draw your whole deck with ewit) and then just tap/bounce all your opponents permanents for the rest of the game. Even if they somehow kill your ewit and empath, if you have the navigator and palinchron you have 2 massive bodies that are essentially hexproof, vigilance and cant die from combat damage. Turning just those 2 sideways should win you most games.

I see why frosty is there, empath>deadeye, untap, deadeye empath for infinite mana and then get frosty and tap down everything forever. But I wonder if there might be another card for 6+ mana that would be more useful if we drew it naturally. Ill look into it later, maybe nothing better exists.

I dont know about the living wishes. I obviously havent tested it yet, but are they really needed? My initial thoughts were that Id rather have more removal and ways to protect the deadeye combo, in the form of discard or counters.

[Arianrhod]

BUG - Check
Nic Fit - Check
Infinite Combo - Check

I'm in. :D

I'll go ahead and change up the lands as usual tho, as i prefer running 8 fetched and 5 duals rather then 6 fetch 7 duals ;)

Is the Frost Titan really necessary? Yes you get to tap down their field, however with anything else you will get the easy win aswell, and i don't think Frost Titan is the bomb the deck wants, how ever good it may be.

Also I'm not sure if you want to be running the Blue Sun's Zenith/Stroke of Genius, if you make infinite mana it's obviously auto-win, but i'm not sure if it's good enought for "just value", as it only really becomes good at X>3.


No more comments from me for now, i'll see if i can get the missing cards and get testing! :D


I like the Deadeye Idea. Ive been wanting to get into a combo oriented BUG nic fit list lately, and this might be my ticket.

Things Id definitely change would be the fetches and the X draw spells. If you have infinite mana you can just bounce your ewits or empaths till you get frost titan (or draw your whole deck with ewit) and then just tap/bounce all your opponents permanents for the rest of the game. Even if they somehow kill your ewit and empath, if you have the navigator and palinchron you have 2 massive bodies that are essentially hexproof, vigilance and cant die from combat damage. Turning just those 2 sideways should win you most games.

I see why frosty is there, empath>deadeye, untap, deadeye empath for infinite mana and then get frosty and tap down everything forever. But I wonder if there might be another card for 6+ mana that would be more useful if we drew it naturally. Ill look into it later, maybe nothing better exists.

I dont know about the living wishes. I obviously havent tested it yet, but are they really needed? My initial thoughts were that Id rather have more removal and ways to protect the deadeye combo, in the form of discard or counters.

The main reason I have 6+7 in this deck as opposed to 8+5 is because I want the additional mana sources. I'm not saying that's correct, necessarily, but that was the thought process.

Frost Titan does two very nice things for you. He serves as a massive bomb, obviously, and plays nicely with infinite mana -- but the other thing he does, is be a complete and utter dickbag to Show and Tell. Between the Vensers and the Frosty, in addition to Wish->Karakas, this version should be better equipped to fight the Show and Tell menace in ways that do not involve dying to Leyline of Sanctity. It's possible that there's something better, but I'm not sure of what it is. For what little it matters due to his size, his shield does render him immune to Punishing Fire, which is a corner case, but a nice one.

The X draw spells are probably unnecessary. I wanted a way to draw a bunch of cards that plays nicely with infinite mana, so I threw them in when I added Palinchron. It might be better for them to be a 4th Brainstorm and a 3rd Top, but I dunno. I don't think that Jace is a good idea, since we can't do what vintage does (Tidespout Tyrant) to bounce/replay/re-Brainstorm to draw our deck. I've considered Baleful Strix just as additional stall / card draw via Deadeye, but I don't like the idea of running a pair of Strix -- that guy's way too good to be just a non-tutorable 2-of. I guess we could drop the Oracles and go to 4 Strix, but I feel there should be at least 1 Oracle because that's one of the best flicker targets -- you can draw a ton of cards with that engine, since the Oracle dumps any lands you hit into play to keep flickering more with.

I'd definitely consider those slots as being "open," though.

As for Living Wish, I actually think that Living Wish is really important. It has a very Scapewish-esque feel where Wish can just win you the game (Maga). Then you have some various answers to various problems, and then you have a 2nd Deadguy, in case the first one gets dealt with. Being able to wish for a 2nd copy of Deadeye seems critical to me, since sometimes the first one does die -- or, worse, gets exiled. But, at the same time, you don't really want to go deep and put like 3 copies of him maindeck, because you'll clog. The Wishes are actually a pretty elegant solution, I think.

[Viridia]

Very solid points there Kevin.

I also believe the deck really wants the Wishes, considerimg that you don't want to ever run into double Navigator, but still want acces to more in case of removal.
I'd change the wishboard around a little bit, but that's just tweaking.

I'm not sure if you need the Titan vs S&S, you allready have the 2 Vensers aswel as Wish into Karakas/Fleshbag/Faceless + sideboard discard/counters to battle them.
I believe any 5+ toughness creature is near enough immune to Punishing Fire, considering that is costs atleast 7-8 mana to get 6 damage in anyway ;)

I think i'll be playing around with 3 Baleful Strix + 1 Coiling Oracle (for Zenithing) because, tbh, Strix is amazing in doing what it does best :P
I'd go up to 4 Brainstorm, 3 Top probably, as that makes it so much easier to get all pieces together, rather then being stuck with a spell that costs 6+ mana to be effective.

[sderenatore]

Hello hello,
glad to see we' re here to talk about BUG Nic Fit once again.
I am gonna post my old BUG (stem from the previous panoptic-vision list: it turned out that panoptic its super cool, but not that great sometimes).
People who are curious can take a look at it: it's solid, it's not that original though.. Slowly it got closer to any common BUG control deck. Anyway:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Ponder
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Consecrated Sphinx
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Bribery
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth


Now! The Deadeye list, which i fell in love for.
1) The Palinchron stuff is good, it looks good, it feels good, but it doesnt work that good. I replaced it.
2) Same for Titan: i like that blue frozen Viking, but its not optimal.
3) Guys, again I have something precious for you: Prime Speaker Zegana + Deadeye Navigator = BANG! BANG! BOOOM!
4) What dou you think about Cloudthresher ? To me he looks awesome, especially with Deadeye. Another option is Massacre Wurm. They would take the slot of Palinchron/Titan. I probably prefer Cloudthresher because he can be played during opponents turn and doesnt gift a free Time walk (due to the massive mana needed for Wurm), he can be a finisher if you have more life and deadeye on the field, and he can be played for its evoke cost and responded with deadeye's ability (while you still can get him with both GSZ and Fierce Empath). Massacre Wurm could be a sexy sb option.
5) I made some changes to sb too as long as I am not really sold on the infinite mana plan (I playtested it a little bit, and felt clunky).

So here's the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deadeye Navigator
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Mystic Snake
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Cloudthresher or Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Deadeye Navigator
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Acidic Slime
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Faceless Butcher
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Eternal Witness (I wanted more for grindy matchups)
SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit (Planeswalkers uncounterable solution)


Cheers!

[slikwilly]

3) Guys, again I have something precious for you: Prime Speaker Zegana + Deadeye Navigator = BANG! BANG! BOOOM!


This seems... kinda awesome! It's one of the few cards from Gatecrash that was of much interest to me. It's green sunnable and if they don't kill your Navigator in response to the GSZ then that's a whole ton of cards in hand. I mean really, if you can't win with 6 more cards, a 5/5 and a 6/6, you aren't trying hard enough :)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

<3 Deadeye. Imma call him Ahab, since he also works well with Great Whale.

[Tao]

I do not think Deadeye Navigator is good enough. Consecrated Sphinx also wins the game if you untap with it. It is better against Sorcery Speed Removal (Jace, Liliana, Pulse) and has better fighting stats (blocks Delver, Tombstalker).

But most importantly you play a ton of inferior cards (Venser and Mystic Snake over Jace TMS) just to make a 6-drop better. That seems way too gimmicky.

[Lemnear]

Why all those cute techs? IF you want carddraw and splash blue, why not run Damia, Sage of Stone? Still think Blue is not required. I rather run Armada Wurm for the lulz

[vilnico]

@Arianrhod: Thx for advices
Indeed the Jund MU is kinda driven by their Lili, but also on the fact that our Explorers die. I think that more than Lili, it is the fact that I could not get them dead when I lost to Jund.
Thoughtseize T1 on Explorer or GSZ is also kinda deadly.

So I guess I'll go for Leylines.
And yes, I don't play Sigarda MD, i am the one that plays the weird Omniscience, so I don't have big guys in my stack. But would I play a "normal" version, I would certainly play Sigarda MD with so many Junds around.

About the late BUG list: The Dead-Eye thing is really cute, but I agree better with Tao. Consecrated Sphinx sounds better to me. I also wonder lately about playing Harmonize, and I think it would fit good in BUG. At least I would see it in place of Stroke of Genius.

[Mantis]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Fierce Empath
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Snake
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Frost Titan
1 Palinchron

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Stroke of Genius

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: Deadeye Navigator (//engine)
SB: Vampire Hexmage (//planeswalker hate)
SB: Bojuka Bog (//graveyard hate)
SB: Karakas (//forms a lock with Venser)
SB: Volrath's Stronghold (//recursion engine)
SB: Acidic Slime (//land/enchant/artifact hate)
SB: Faceless Butcher (//targeted kill)
SB: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (//Empty the Warrens sweep / aggro pressure)
SB: Maga, Traitor to Mortals (//infinite kill)
SB: Phyrexian Revoker (//name a problem)
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap

A while before the Nic Fit thread on The Source even existed and when my friends all laughed at me for testing out Veteran Explorer, I had a build similar to yours. Deadeye Navigator was not printed yet and I used Recurring Nightmare in combination with Palinchron. To set up the combo, I used Intuition + Eternal Witness or GZS (or Palinchron or Rec Nightmare in hand works too) in combination with 7 lands. So basically it was; Deed the board once then Intuition EOT for Palinchron, Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy. If they give you Palinchron, play it then play Witness or GZS to get back Rec Nightmare and play it. Sac the Palinchron to Therapy and use Rec Nightmare to get Witness. Rinse, repeat, each loop costs 6 mana (play Rec Nightmare twice) and gains 7, netting 1 mana. Use Witness to bring Intuition and it's impossible to lose with infi mana and infi cards thanks to Intuition finding anything you might need (Deed wipes their board infi times, Thragtusk, which wasn't printed when I used this deck gives infi life and infi tokens, discard their hand with Therapy thus no need for additional win conditions). If they give you Rec Nightmare or Therapy instead of Palinchron, the combo still works. It even works with 6 lands with a creature in play: Witness for Rec Nightmare, Therapy targeting yourself to discard Palinchron and Rec Nightmare over and over again netting you a card every cycle and ending the combo with 6 lands untapped, a Palinchron in play, Recurring Nightmare in hand and whatever else you had in the yard thanks to Witness.

Graveyard hate seems like a glaring weakness, but that isn't true. Usually you have to Deed before being able to win, conviently clearing up any RiP, Relic, Tormod's Crypt and Scavenging Ooze that might stand in the way. Then you pack Therapy and perhaps Gitaxian Probe to check if the coast is clear for Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre. Although I haven't tested the deck in the Deathrite era, but I suppose the former still applies.

Ultimately, while the deck was pretty solid it had a very rough time against Jace TMS, combo decks and even with Top and Brainstorm in the deck I did get hurt by variance a little bit too much for my liking so I moved on to other decks. I do suppose the aforementioned issues are what Nic Fit struggles against in general and if you find a way to shore those issues up the format is broken. If anyone is interested in my list, which probably doesn't apply to todays metagame, let me know and I will post it.

[Kich867]

I do not think Deadeye Navigator is good enough. Consecrated Sphinx also wins the game if you untap with it. It is better against Sorcery Speed Removal (Jace, Liliana, Pulse) and has better fighting stats (blocks Delver, Tombstalker).

But most importantly you play a ton of inferior cards (Venser and Mystic Snake over Jace TMS) just to make a 6-drop better. That seems way too gimmicky.

While Jace is pretty amazing, Venser is the stone cold nuts in a lot of matchups that Nic Fit has issues with. Namely, combo matchups. There are so many small techy little things that can swing games where he comes around, Mystic Snake--sure, it's a singleton, it's probably only going to be useful with Deadeye Navigator, but Venser? Venser is a total monster.

Him and Deadeye also have a pretty unique relationship, better than mystic snake's, in that he's basically a walking Astral Slide But Better And He's Mother Fucking Venser (ASBBAHMFV).

This may be the coolest deck I've ever heard of...ever. Now I want (read: need) trops. Fuck.

I think the palinchron thing is stepping into being in danger of cool things, but Deadeye and the tricks actually seem to be able to stand on their own, at the very least Deadeye + Prime Speaker or whatever, probably drawing 6 cards for 2 mana repeatedly.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: Thx for advices
Indeed the Jund MU is kinda driven by their Lili, but also on the fact that our Explorers die. I think that more than Lili, it is the fact that I could not get them dead when I lost to Jund.
Thoughtseize T1 on Explorer or GSZ is also kinda deadly.

So I guess I'll go for Leylines.
And yes, I don't play Sigarda MD, i am the one that plays the weird Omniscience, so I don't have big guys in my stack. But would I play a "normal" version, I would certainly play Sigarda MD with so many Junds around.

About the late BUG list: The Dead-Eye thing is really cute, but I agree better with Tao. Consecrated Sphinx sounds better to me. I also wonder lately about playing Harmonize, and I think it would fit good in BUG. At least I would see it in place of Stroke of Genius.

Ohhhh. I didn't realize that you were on Omni. I remember now. You had the Scroll Rack tech that I thought was sweet.

Are you running the Rusalka? If you're having trouble with Jund because you can't get through their tempo, 4 Green Suns and a Rusalka will do wonders for you. If memory serves you're running 2 or 3 Rectors, as well, so Rusalka would be good for that too.


Why all those cute techs? IF you want carddraw and splash blue, why not run Damia, Sage of Stone? Still think Blue is not required. I rather run Armada Wurm for the lulz

Blue isn't required. It's optional, like every other version of Nic Fit that's in this thread. I'm a brewer at heart, and even if Rector and Scapewish are both highly competitive and nearly perfected, I'm always going to keep brewing new versions, because in doing so, I might find new technology for one of the pre-existing lists, or I might find something that's an even better way to attack a specific metagame. So yeah. Blue isn't required at all -- but it's something that some people prefer.

As for Damia, I've considered her several times, and I think that she's just worse than Con Sphinx. The only edge she has is that she can be Green Sunned. That's definitely an edge to be considered, but she has to survive an entire turn cycle, whereas Con Sphinx just has to survive an endstep and an upkeep to get value. IMO that's too big of a disadvantage.


I do not think Deadeye Navigator is good enough. Consecrated Sphinx also wins the game if you untap with it. It is better against Sorcery Speed Removal (Jace, Liliana, Pulse) and has better fighting stats (blocks Delver, Tombstalker).

But most importantly you play a ton of inferior cards (Venser and Mystic Snake over Jace TMS) just to make a 6-drop better. That seems way too gimmicky.

Con Sphinx was in the list over Palinchron originally -- I ended up cutting it in favor of the combo element. Sphinx is better in controlly Jace lists IMO, where you can be drawing into more removal to protect your Jace.

Snake is something I'm kind of "eh" about. It's a Green Sunnable lock piece for Deadeye, which I can appreciate, but I feel like that slot would be better served as a value guy. Snake might be better in the Wishboard, because while they know you have it, it at least goes into your hand as opposed to in play via Green Sun, which wastes its trigger and makes it useless without Deadeye.

Venser, on the other hand, I will defend. Venser is a hell of a good card. You can easily form a lock with him via Karakas, and he's a solid maindeck anti-Show and Tell option who just so happens to go apeshit with Deadeye.

Venser as compared to Jace....well....honestly, I don't like Jace in this version. I'd rather have more value creatures and more spells. I still say that the closest thing to compare the deck to is to Tyrant Oath in vintage. It just sits there and plays the control deck for a while, then it combos off. Oath can abuse Jace by bouncing and recasting him repeatedly, Brainstorming each interval so as to draw your deck. Jace also helps keep Tyrant in their deck so that they can Oath into it. In legacy, though, we get to play 4 Brainstorms. I would 100% play the 4th Brainstorm over the 1st Jace in this list, and I think that I would probably play Ponder or Git Probe before any additional Jaces. This particular version just isn't a Jace deck.

And I mean, I've Jaced a LOT of people in a lot of different decks in a lot of different formats. I fully understand Jace's power. He doesn't sync up well here, though.


Hello hello,
glad to see we' re here to talk about BUG Nic Fit once again.

[snip for space]

Now! The Deadeye list, which i fell in love for.
1) The Palinchron stuff is good, it looks good, it feels good, but it doesnt work that good. I replaced it.
2) Same for Titan: i like that blue frozen Viking, but its not optimal.
3) Guys, again I have something precious for you: Prime Speaker Zegana + Deadeye Navigator = BANG! BANG! BOOOM!
4) What dou you think about Cloudthresher ? To me he looks awesome, especially with Deadeye. Another option is Massacre Wurm. They would take the slot of Palinchron/Titan. I probably prefer Cloudthresher because he can be played during opponents turn and doesnt gift a free Time walk (due to the massive mana needed for Wurm), he can be a finisher if you have more life and deadeye on the field, and he can be played for its evoke cost and responded with deadeye's ability (while you still can get him with both GSZ and Fierce Empath). Massacre Wurm could be a sexy sb option.
5) I made some changes to sb too as long as I am not really sold on the infinite mana plan (I playtested it a little bit, and felt clunky).
Cheers!

I love me some Zegana. The problem with Zegana here is that most of this list's dudes are all small, so you're not going to get much value out of her. You have like, Tusk and Deadeye as significant draw engines. Everything else is a 1/x or a 2/x, which translates to Draw 2 or Draw 3 respectively. Those aren't bad per se...but I feel like Zegana could do better things in a list that's more "for her," so to speak.

Thresher is hilarious. Massacre Wurm is probably better since it hits all creatures regardless of whether they fly or not, even though it is more expensive (and triple black...ugh).

At what point should we be considering Mulldrifter?

Also, what did you not like about Palinchron? From the way you worded your post, I'm assuming that you actually tested it a little and didn't like it in practice. What went wrong?


A while before the Nic Fit thread on The Source even existed and when my friends all laughed at me for testing out Veteran Explorer, I had a build similar to yours. Deadeye Navigator was not printed yet and I used Recurring Nightmare in combination with Palinchron. To set up the combo, I used Intuition + Eternal Witness or GZS (or Palinchron or Rec Nightmare in hand works too) in combination with 7 lands. So basically it was; Deed the board once then Intuition EOT for Palinchron, Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy. If they give you Palinchron, play it then play Witness or GZS to get back Rec Nightmare and play it. Sac the Palinchron to Therapy and use Rec Nightmare to get Witness. Rinse, repeat, each loop costs 6 mana (play Rec Nightmare twice) and gains 7, netting 1 mana. Use Witness to bring Intuition and it's impossible to lose with infi mana and infi cards thanks to Intuition finding anything you might need (Deed wipes their board infi times, Thragtusk, which wasn't printed when I used this deck gives infi life and infi tokens, discard their hand with Therapy thus no need for additional win conditions). If they give you Rec Nightmare or Therapy instead of Palinchron, the combo still works. It even works with 6 lands with a creature in play: Witness for Rec Nightmare, Therapy targeting yourself to discard Palinchron and Rec Nightmare over and over again netting you a card every cycle and ending the combo with 6 lands untapped, a Palinchron in play, Recurring Nightmare in hand and whatever else you had in the yard thanks to Witness.

Graveyard hate seems like a glaring weakness, but that isn't true. Usually you have to Deed before being able to win, conviently clearing up any RiP, Relic, Tormod's Crypt and Scavenging Ooze that might stand in the way. Then you pack Therapy and perhaps Gitaxian Probe to check if the coast is clear for Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre. Although I haven't tested the deck in the Deathrite era, but I suppose the former still applies.

Ultimately, while the deck was pretty solid it had a very rough time against Jace TMS, combo decks and even with Top and Brainstorm in the deck I did get hurt by variance a little bit too much for my liking so I moved on to other decks. I do suppose the aforementioned issues are what Nic Fit struggles against in general and if you find a way to shore those issues up the format is broken. If anyone is interested in my list, which probably doesn't apply to todays metagame, let me know and I will post it.

Sounds like Bruizar's list from months ago. By all means, though, post it up.

I will note that I'm not sure how much I like Nightmare in this list overall, since you can just Wish for Volrath's Stronghold. But, I'm certainly still willing to consider it.

Also, Probe+Therapy is still sick, and still an engine that I want to put in BUG versions, if I could ever find the space. I worry that it makes the deck too linear, since you're dedicating 4 slots to a straight cantrip (not even a fake Recall like Brainstorm).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Wow . . . just realized that Fierce Empath turns the Deadeye combo into a one-card combo.

1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Blink Empath twice get Palinchron and win-con (Grave Titan or Kokusho): do not rebond after
getting win con
4. Generate a megaton of mana with Deadeye and Palinchron, then win.

[Arianrhod]

Wow . . . just realized that Fierce Empath turns the Deadeye combo into a one-card combo.

1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Blink Empath twice get Palinchron and win-con (Grave Titan or Kokusho): do not rebond after
getting win con
4. Generate a megaton of mana with Deadeye and Palinchron, then win.

I still say Frosted Tits is better. It's entirely possible that there's a better-still option....unfortunately Inferno Titan isn't a possibility (as that would just straight kill that turn). I'm not sure what that option is, though....and honestly, I really like Frost in this deck. It's been nothing but fantastic for me so far.

[Kich867]

Wow . . . just realized that Fierce Empath turns the Deadeye combo into a one-card combo.

1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Blink Empath twice get Palinchron and win-con (Grave Titan or Kokusho): do not rebond after
getting win con
4. Generate a megaton of mana with Deadeye and Palinchron, then win.

There's one minor trick you'll have to pull off, which is purposely rebonding with the empath, but blinking Deadeye Navigator to retrigger his soulbond on palinchron after you drop palinchron in. This will generate infinite mana--this actually doesn't sound terrible, since my only concern with palinchron was not tutoring him, but we can do that..

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well there are certainly options. Kokusho flings to the face, GraveDaddy makes an army, and Frosty the Snowman is the blue Yosei. But my point is all these wincons and the combo can be fetched with Empath which can be GSZd. Which makes this a very splashable combo.

[slikwilly]

I love me some Zegana. The problem with Zegana here is that most of this list's dudes are all small, so you're not going to get much value out of her. You have like, Tusk and Deadeye as significant draw engines. Everything else is a 1/x or a 2/x, which translates to Draw 2 or Draw 3 respectively. Those aren't bad per se...but I feel like Zegana could do better things in a list that's more "for her," so to speak.

Even that's not so bad though. You can play out Zegana, get your three cards or whatever, play out Navigator at some later point, bond w/ Zegana and you're rolling. And since Navigator can reset his bonding, you can play him whenever.

[Kich867]

Well there are certainly options. Kokusho flings to the face, GraveDaddy makes an army, and Frosty the Snowman is the blue Yosei. But my point is all these wincons and the combo can be fetched with Empath which can be GSZd. Which makes this a very splashable combo.

Is it going too deep to run something like Rune-Scarred Demon for after generating infinite mana, bouncing Deadeye to reconnect with Empath, bouncing empath to tutor him, fetching Rune-Scarred Demon to fetch blue sun, and just kill them?

Or is there another way to do that? Maybe a different less ridiculously expensive creature? I mean on one hand, if this combo starts it's not stopping for much, it also doesn't have any weird requirements like "It has to be in the library beforehand!" it's just like, you tutor a bunch of things and deck them after making infinity mana.

[TheArchitect]

Wow . . . just realized that Fierce Empath turns the Deadeye combo into a one-card combo.

1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Blink Empath twice get Palinchron and win-con (Grave Titan or Kokusho): do not rebond after
getting win con
4. Generate a megaton of mana with Deadeye and Palinchron, then win.

I think thats why the frost titan was in that list.

1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Empath get Palinchron
4. Blink deadeye, bond with palinchron and make a infinite mana
5. Blink dead eye, bond with empath
6. Blink empath get frosty (or zengra or oona, whatever)
7. Blink deadeye, bond with Frosty or wincon
8. Blink frosty and tap down all their permanents forever. (Or draw your deck, mill your opponent or whatever)

I think blinking a witness, venser, thrag or coiling oracle infinite times when you have infinite mana should be all that's needed to win though. Literally any of the other creatures in the deck besides the explorers are wincons when you have deadeye+palinchron. Adding ANOTHER win-more 6 drop is unnecessary cuteness.

Also, as much as I love a good brew there isnt much this deck can do better than scapewish. Except for playing around wasteland, leyline of santicy and life gain, you just win if you hit 7 lands and have the combo piece. Where this combo requires that you get 6 lands, a GSZ, one, and usually two, untap steps, and you have to make sure your opponent doesn't have countermagic, discard, OR creature removal for the 2-3 turns were you set up. Maybe Im wrong, but a burning wish board seems much better than a living wish board. And islands/blue are hated on more than red. Huntmasters seem much better for this archtype than the creatures blue offers. Red in general offers better SB cards than blue. So that leaves just one big advantage to running blue over red, brainstorm, Jace and FoW, and this list seems to only be able to fit brainstorm in it.

I'm still going to try this out, cause it seems really cool and its a very creative idea. I'd love for this to be good, but we have to make sure it is not just innovation for innovations sake and is actually better than the alternatives.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, I went through Gatherer and looked at literally every 6+ drop in the entire game. There are 8 total options in the entire game for ways to win, either on the spot or via lockdown, with infinite mana/blink.


Frost Titan
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Rune-Scarred Demon
Spawnsire of Ulamog
Triskelion
Vela the Night-Clad
Woodfall Primus
Craterhoof Behemoth


Most of these are somewhat situational. Hoof requires that you have at least one creature who is not summoning sick besides the Hoof (flickering infinitely generates an infinite/infinite trampler). Primus is like Frost Titan in that it's a lockdown...they don't have lands anymore. Vela just kills people, and says "Each opponent," so she won't get hosed by Leyline of Sanctity. She also has amazing art (which is not actually a category for consideration...but I'm just tossing it out there. *drool*).

Trike also just kills people, but he loses to Leyline (for whatever that's worth). He can still Plague Wind your opponent, though. Spawnsire is....uh.....included for the sake of completeness. I GUESS you could theoretically have an Emrakul in your board to Wish for..but....eugh. Rune-Scarred is actually sweet. You don't Demonic for Blue Sun, you Demonic for Living Wish, then Wish for Maga. Or you could Demonic for Venser and bounce all of their permanents and spells for the rest of the game. Oona is a third "just dead" option.

So, eliminating Spawnsire as being VASTLY too cute, that leaves us with the following:

Lockdown: Frost Titan, Woodfall Primus
Combat step: Craterhoof Behemoth
Just Dead: Oona, Queen of the Fae, Rune-Scarred Demon, Triskelion, Vela the Night-clad

Of these, I think that we can regretfully cut Vela from consideration. Leyline of Sanctity is no big deal -- we have a ton of ways to answer it, and frankly I don't know that people would board it in vs this deck anyway. I'm inclined to think that they shouldn't, at the least. Woodfall is, in my opinion, worse than Frosty. The only circumstance where Woodfall beats Frosty is if they Show Omniscience. Vs literally everything else, Frost Titan is better.

That leaves Frosty, Hoof, and Oona/RSD/Trike. I think that Rune-scarred ACTUALLY wins vs Trike and Oona, because you once you hit that stage it is literally impossible to lose. I mean literally. No matter what answer they might have, you can Demonic for an answer to their answer. If they have Mindbreak Trap, you flicker Demon for Venser or Snake. If they have Leyline (which stops Maga), you flicker Demon for Living Wish for Acidic Slime, then flicker Demon again for another Wish to Maga them. And so on. Whatever the board state is, you have an out. Also a 6/6 flying Demonic Tutor seems pretty legit at any stage of the game.

So...the final options are Frosty, Hoof, and RSD. What is everyones' opinions on these three? RSD costs 7 and Hoof runs you 8 mana, compared to Frosty's 6. Hoof is Zenithable, and sometimes you'll just randomly kill people with any odd dorks you have lying around, without even needing to go infinite. RSD can answer almost any situation single-handedly provided you have the time, but 7 mana is a LOT for "just" a Demonic. Frosty can lock down any single creature or land-based threat indefinitely, but is a slow kill, and runs into issues against developed board states with multiple Goyfs, etc.

------------

As for this vs Scapewish, I think that this version has a lot of good matchups that aren't shared by the rest of the family. Scapewish melts fair decks, but struggles vs combo. Rector is flexible enough to win vs anything, but can lose to anything as well. Deadeye should shred Show/Tell, and it actually has the ability to beat 12post, which is something that Nic Fit struggles with currently (wish for Acidic Slime, then start flickering). The idea is for Deadeye to be strong against combo, while still being able to hold its own vs fair decks.

[Arianrhod]

Also, if we can get this thing ironed out in time for me to order the stuff I'm missing from it, I'll play it at Jupiter on Saturday. Finding the Trops might be a little tricky (since my Trops are in my 12post deck, which a friend will be using at the event), but I should be able to manage it. Right now it's too rough for me to be comfortable playing it in a 75-80 person event, though. Worst case I'll probably play it at April's Jupiter event.

[Kich867]

Also, if we can get this thing ironed out in time for me to order the stuff I'm missing from it, I'll play it at Jupiter on Saturday. Finding the Trops might be a little tricky (since my Trops are in my 12post deck, which a friend will be using at the event), but I should be able to manage it. Right now it's too rough for me to be comfortable playing it in a 75-80 person event, though. Worst case I'll probably play it at April's Jupiter event.

This must happen Kevin. I need to see this deck in action. And hell yeah RSD. I was like "This feels too cute" but, even WITH a leyline out, you have infinite mana, you can flicker him to tutor a pulse and blow it up or a venser and bounce it then kill them.

[Tao]

I would not recommend bringing this to a tournament. Barring insane luck or bad opponents you will be in for a 1-3 drop. It looks flashy but the lists is not good. What you currently have is a 4 drop that tutors for a 6 drop that combos with a 7 drop. That is simply not playable.

This combo finish doesn't help in the majority of the matchups. Against Combo it makes no difference because you are ~4 turns slower than them anyway. And against all the Tempo decks you would rather have win conditions that are good on their own. For example Planeswalkers like Jace, Liliana, Garruk like in my version; or value creatures like Wurmcoil Engine, Consecrated Sphinx or Grave/Primeval Titan. And against the U/W decks, they have Swords to Plowshares for the Deadeye.

[Arianrhod]

This must happen Kevin. I need to see this deck in action. And hell yeah RSD. I was like "This feels too cute" but, even WITH a leyline out, you have infinite mana, you can flicker him to tutor a pulse and blow it up or a venser and bounce it then kill them.

I'll see what I can do. For where the list is at right now, I think I need like, Palinchron, Maga, Mystic Snake, 1 Deadeye....and I dunno what else. It's not much, I just need to have the list finalized (close enough) before I pull the trigger.

Right now I think the main points of contention are the Stroke/Blue Sun slots maindeck, the choice of finisher (Frosty/RSD/Hoof), and the sideboard / wishboard targets. I'm also not sure if I want Snake maindeck or if perhaps he should be moved to the sideboard as a Wish target....or just cut entirely. There's still a lot unsure about the deck at this point, with 2.5 days for us to iron it out. If I need to order cards from Jupiter, I'll be doing it Friday night, so the list has to have solidified by then for me to play it.

[Kich867]

I'll see what I can do. For where the list is at right now, I think I need like, Palinchron, Maga, Mystic Snake, 1 Deadeye....and I dunno what else. It's not much, I just need to have the list finalized (close enough) before I pull the trigger.

Right now I think the main points of contention are the Stroke/Blue Sun slots maindeck, the choice of finisher (Frosty/RSD/Hoof), and the sideboard / wishboard targets. I'm also not sure if I want Snake maindeck or if perhaps he should be moved to the sideboard as a Wish target....or just cut entirely. There's still a lot unsure about the deck at this point, with 2.5 days for us to iron it out. If I need to order cards from Jupiter, I'll be doing it Friday night, so the list has to have solidified by then for me to play it.

I have a Palinchron and I think a deadeye, will confirm tonight, that I could give you for the tournament.

Mystic Snake seems a little bit too cute for me, I think the Stroke / Blue Sun slots should be one slot, and it should be Stroke since it's just easier to cast in the event you aren't going infinite on them.

I would opt for RSD, if only because I prefer win conditions that insta-kill the opponent, no questions asked, rather than requiring an untap step to kill them. Craterhoof seems too difficult, since Empath, Palinchron, and Deadeye will all have summoning sickness after the combo, requiring a different creature to attack them. Frosty is probably fine as well, maybe a little more flexible of an answer, but certainly doesn't one-shot them.

Frost Titan is probably the more flexible answer that requires less slots, since you'd no longer need RSD or Stroke, freeing up 2 slots for something else, as well as being a more castable beater. And sometimes his defense-grid thing is annoying. Though if someone wants him dead, he's gone.

I also like that without the combo, most of these pieces are fine on their own. Deadeye + basically..fuckin..anything is the stone cold nuts (thragtusk?). I feel like it's missing enough powerful things to win the game with though, the list seems heavily reliant on deadeye to work, and while it most likely will in general, I feel like it should be able to stand on it's own or buy enough time and have enough disruption to reliably get it going.

I'm wondering if Thrun wouldn't be a bad choice here, just as a total beast of a wall that will buy infinity time, over the Mystic Snake slot?

[Arianrhod]

I have a Palinchron and I think a deadeye, will confirm tonight, that I could give you for the tournament.

Mystic Snake seems a little bit too cute for me, I think the Stroke / Blue Sun slots should be one slot, and it should be Stroke since it's just easier to cast in the event you aren't going infinite on them.

I would opt for RSD, if only because I prefer win conditions that insta-kill the opponent, no questions asked, rather than requiring an untap step to kill them. Craterhoof seems too difficult, since Empath, Palinchron, and Deadeye will all have summoning sickness after the combo, requiring a different creature to attack them. Frosty is probably fine as well, maybe a little more flexible of an answer, but certainly doesn't one-shot them.

Frost Titan is probably the more flexible answer that requires less slots, since you'd no longer need RSD or Stroke, freeing up 2 slots for something else, as well as being a more castable beater. And sometimes his defense-grid thing is annoying. Though if someone wants him dead, he's gone.

I also like that without the combo, most of these pieces are fine on their own. Deadeye + basically..fuckin..anything is the stone cold nuts (thragtusk?). I feel like it's missing enough powerful things to win the game with though, the list seems heavily reliant on deadeye to work, and while it most likely will in general, I feel like it should be able to stand on it's own or buy enough time and have enough disruption to reliably get it going.

I'm wondering if Thrun wouldn't be a bad choice here, just as a total beast of a wall that will buy infinity time, over the Mystic Snake slot?

I'm not sure that Stroke is even necessary. You can just kill that slot entirely and put Maga, Traitor to Mortals in your sideboard. If we just cut Snake, that would give us 3 open slots maindeck. That's....a lot of slots. For reference, here's where we're at (so people don't have to page back as much):

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Fierce Empath
2 Eternal Witness
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Frost Titan // Rune-Scarred Demon (debating now)
1 Palinchron

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Open Slots

3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: Deadeye Navigator (engine)
SB: Vampire Hexmage (planeswalker hate)
SB: Bojuka Bog (graveyard hate) ---- Maybe something like Withered Wretch instead? Bog might be too limiting.
SB: Karakas (forms a lock with Venser, good vs Sneak/Show)
SB: Volrath's Stronghold (recursion engine)
SB: Acidic Slime (land/enchant/artifact hate)
SB: Faceless Butcher (targeted kill)
SB: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Empty the Warrens sweep / aggro pressure) ---- cut this?
SB: Maga, Traitor to Mortals (infinite kill)
SB: Phyrexian Revoker (name a problem)
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap

Not sure about the 5 current sideboard slots. I know I want 3 Negates, but I'm not sure about the Mindbreak Traps....and I'm not sure but if I might be able to squeeze out a few extra sideboard slots by trimming the wishboard down a bit. Like Tabernacle probably isn't necessary, for example. It's good...but probably not needed.

[TheArchitect]

I dont see how this list is better vs combo. If anything it seems worse since you cant REB cantrips or combo peices. A two-of 4 drop that bounces a spell isnt going to stop TES or belcher. And you wont always have it hand for S&T. Both decks can wish for answers to empty or belcher+pass. But only one can wish for slaughter games or thoughtseize. I really think you want FoW in somewhere in the 75, THAT would improve the combo matchup. Mystic snake I think is worse than venser (could be wrong), but Id say cut him or make him venser #3.

Having a 6 drop win con like frost titan, RSD or whatever is totally win more. If you have coiling oracle, ewit, strix, venser or thrag out with deadeye+palichron you win. You do some combination of drawing infinite life, recuring cards from your graveyard infinitely, bouncing every card your opponent plays, or making 3/3 forever, or at the very worst case, swinging with hexproof undamageable palichron till you draw stuff.

Even Maga isnt needed, if you get the the point where your drawing/recuring lots of cards with infinite mana you can just bounce every permanent and spell your opponents play forever with venser while you swing with dead eye and palichron every turn. That can open up another SB slot.

If you're going to including stuff like runescared demon, BSZ or stoke, you need justification for them besides that they win the game in a cool way if you already won the game. If there truly are other reasons to run them over good stuff like abrupt decay, FoW, Jace, Thrun, or Thoughtseize that let you get to the point in the game where you can win, then by all means run them. But I cant think of any of those reasons. Most of the time they will just sit in your hand while you wish they were other cards.


I think if you're going to have the wish board, tabernacle definitely deserves a spot. Against random tribal, empty the warrens, or even decks like mav its really good.

[Kich867]

I dont see how this list is better vs combo. If anything it seems worse since you cant REB cantrips or combo peices. A two-of 4 drop that bounces a spell isnt going to stop TES or belcher. And you wont always have it hand for S&T. Both decks can wish for answers to empty or belcher+pass. But only one can wish for slaughter games or thoughtseize. I really think you want FoW in somewhere in the 75, THAT would improve the combo matchup. Mystic snake I think is worse than venser (could be wrong), but Id say cut him or make him venser #3.

Having a 6 drop win con like frost titan, RSD or whatever is totally win more. If you have coiling oracle, ewit, strix, venser or thrag out with deadeye+palichron you win. You do some combination of drawing infinite life, recuring cards from your graveyard infinitely, bouncing every card your opponent plays, or making 3/3 forever, or at the very worst case, swinging with hexproof undamageable palichron till you draw stuff.

Even Maga isnt needed, if you get the the point where your drawing/recuring lots of cards with infinite mana you can just bounce every permanent and spell your opponents play forever with venser while you swing with dead eye and palichron every turn. That can open up another SB slot.

If you're going to including stuff like runescared demon, BSZ or stoke, you need justification for them besides that they win the game in a cool way if you already won the game. If there truly are other reasons to run them over good stuff like abrupt decay, FoW, Jace, Thrun, or Thoughtseize that let you get to the point in the game where you can win, then by all means run them. But I cant think of any of those reasons. Most of the time they will just sit in your hand while you wish they were other cards.


I think if you're going to have the wish board, tabernacle definitely deserves a spot. Against random tribal, empty the warrens, or even decks like mav its really good.

Architect layin down the truth, this opens up more slots everywhere. Infinity bounce / life + creatures / etc. is really all that's needed. I'm not terribly opposed to the Prime Speaker Zegana idea so long as there are more mid-rangey creatures like Thrun hanging around.

FOW was something I wanted to try and fit in that list but there were only like 13 blue cards, so more of them are needed. And often you have nothing you want to pitch. Perhaps instead of FOW, just opting for solid hard-counters like maindeck Negates?

FOW is tough because there's just so many cards that sort of need to be in the maindeck, the ~15ish creatures, therapies, GSZ's, etc... Hrm.

[Tao]

Just because I honestly don't know: are we still trying to maximize win percentages with the lists? Because that is all I care about. Or is this about making cool stuff? I do not mind if you do, but then I know that I can keep out of the discussion.

[Arianrhod]

I dont see how this list is better vs combo. If anything it seems worse since you cant REB cantrips or combo peices. A two-of 4 drop that bounces a spell isnt going to stop TES or belcher. And you wont always have it hand for S&T. Both decks can wish for answers to empty or belcher+pass. But only one can wish for slaughter games or thoughtseize. I really think you want FoW in somewhere in the 75, THAT would improve the combo matchup. Mystic snake I think is worse than venser (could be wrong), but Id say cut him or make him venser #3.

Having a 6 drop win con like frost titan, RSD or whatever is totally win more. If you have coiling oracle, ewit, strix, venser or thrag out with deadeye+palichron you win. You do some combination of drawing infinite life, recuring cards from your graveyard infinitely, bouncing every card your opponent plays, or making 3/3 forever, or at the very worst case, swinging with hexproof undamageable palichron till you draw stuff.

Even Maga isnt needed, if you get the the point where your drawing/recuring lots of cards with infinite mana you can just bounce every permanent and spell your opponents play forever with venser while you swing with dead eye and palichron every turn. That can open up another SB slot.

If you're going to including stuff like runescared demon, BSZ or stoke, you need justification for them besides that they win the game in a cool way if you already won the game. If there truly are other reasons to run them over good stuff like abrupt decay, FoW, Jace, Thrun, or Thoughtseize that let you get to the point in the game where you can win, then by all means run them. But I cant think of any of those reasons. Most of the time they will just sit in your hand while you wish they were other cards.


I think if you're going to have the wish board, tabernacle definitely deserves a spot. Against random tribal, empty the warrens, or even decks like mav its really good.

You can interact on the stack. Also, you're playing blue. This automatically gives you a few % points, because combo players are going to hesitate. If they see Taiga + Badlands, they're just going to go off without protection. If they see Trop + Sea, though, they're going to wait until they have protection. Even if that only buys you a turn or two, that's an advantage.

Slaughter Games and Thoughtseize are grossly overestimated right now. There's too much Leyline of Sanctity. The combo decks are running them to protect themselves from discard, and the control decks are running them to protect against the combo decks. REB is a valid argument that I will grant you. At best, though, that's a wash, because blue has Negate, which does basically the same thing.

I'm actually thinking about running Force instead of Trap, and then trying to find slots for the 3rd and 4th copies. With the 3 open slots in the maindeck as blue cards, I think that it should be possible.

Where this version gets points vs combo is vs Show and Tell. While true that you won't always have one of these options in your hand, let's consider the range of possibilities:

Assuming that Show and Tell resolves, and is not Therapied away, you have:

2 Venser
1 Frost Titan + 1 Fierce Empath (+3 Green Sun)
4 Living Wish
-Possibly- 3 Baleful Strix (the forerunner for the open slots currently)
2 Pulse (if not Emrakul)

That's 16 cards, not counting if you Therapy away the Show and Tell in the first place, which brings the count up to 20. That's a solid 1/3 of the deck that directly or indirectly answers Show and Tell. That's HUGE.

As for Maga, I think that this comes to a difference in style more than anything. Let me use an example from Vintage:

There are two Bomberman decks in Vintage. One uses infinite Aether Spellbombs to bounce and replay Clique endlessly, sculpting your hand such that you have all counterspells to their all lands (by sculpting their hand too). The other kills by drawing your deck until you hit Vault/Key (which is considered a win in Vintage). Technically speaking, the Vault/Key win was unnecessary. You technically win with a Clique and enough counterspells to wall anything. But you don't ACTUALLY win. There's a chance that they can slip out somehow. They can draw something unexpected (like an Abrupt Decay), and suddenly, for all your infinite mana and your fistful of protection....you lose.

So yeah. Looping Thragtusk with Deadeye 5 times is probably going to win you the game. Almost certainly, in fact. But I would rather just see them dead, and not take chances on them ripping a Supreme Verdict or something. Venser is a little bit of a different story. Deadeye+Venser should end in a win. I'll grant you that one. So, cutting Maga is probably fine. RSD should still stay, though, as a means to be sure you hit Venser when you go infinite.

[Arianrhod]

Just because I honestly don't know: are we still trying to maximize win percentages with the lists? Because that is all I care about. Or is this about making cool stuff? I do not mind if you do, but then I know that I can keep out of the discussion.

Oh, most definitely. I think that there is an element by which the two blend at some point, though. This entire thread has been dubbed cute stuff at various points in history. Everyone I knew at one point was skeptical of Scapewish and called it strictly unplayable -- and Scapewish has gone on to win myself, and then others, a lot of events. If Deadeye ends up being completely untenable, then you can bet that I'll be the first to admit it and slap myself on the wrist. But I don't think it will be. As I've said previously in the discussion, it has a hell of a lot more potential than Future or Panoptic Mirror. I tried both of those, and they both ended up being bad specifically because they were spell-based engines, not creature-based. Hell, I have foil Panoptic Mirrors rotting in my binder because I pulled the trigger too quickly on that one. I jumped the gun, and I paid for it. Those two failures showed me, though, that Nic Fit needs a creature base, and that's why I think that Deadeye is what the blue list has been looking for. It allows the blue version to run typically blue cards -- but still utilize a creature-centric base which synergizes with those cards.

Incidentally, this is the problem that I've personally always had with the Jace version. I acknowledge that it's good...but it's not to my taste. Same with PFire and Rock. They're fine decks, but they don't sync well with me.

[TheArchitect]

Taking out Trap for FoW is what I was thinking too.

Having an opponent play around countermagic because of the blue lands is legit point. But it does only works if they dont know your list.

Yes, the S&T match is probably better with this list.

I think the amount of times RSD is a dead draw and costs you a game, is going to be ALOT greater the amount of times you can get empath>dead>palinc but no other creatures to get you card advantage, and you lose because your 3 vigilance, semi-hexproof, uncombat-damagable creatures that generate infinite mana aren't good enough to win.

[Kich867]

Taking out Trap for FoW is what I was thinking too.

Having an opponent play around countermagic because of the blue lands is legit point. But it does only works if they dont know your list.

Yes, the S&T match is probably better with this list.

I think the amount of times RSD is a dead draw and costs you a game, is going to be ALOT greater the amount of times you can get empath>dead>palinc but no other creatures to get you card advantage, and you lose because your 3 vigilance, semi-hexproof, uncombat-damagable creatures that generate infinite mana aren't good enough to win.

But if you get Empath>Dead>Palinc, they're always dead unless they stop it somehow. Which is unlikely, because even against spot removal you have 3 blinks to trigger before you're out of mana. No matter what, when you hit this setup by virtue of being able to tutor any 6 drop infinitely, you should always win the game. There is no corner case where you have no other creatures to get you card advantage, because you have Empath, who is the creature that gets you card advantage..

You can't lose to having your 3 vigilance, semi-hexproof dudes because one of them tutors frost titan who taps their entire board forever, or tutors RSD to tutor a kill spell, and so on and so forth. If this ever happens, you win the game on the spot. The question is: How hard is this to realistically setup (as has been mentioned, it may take a few turns and is difficult to do in one-go), how hard is it to protect, and how reliably CAN you set it up given the deck's tools.

Also, how good is the deck without this setup? That's probably the biggest question. Can this deck, without all that, just grind it out and win, and how reliant would the list be on that specific combo working.

[Arianrhod]

The question is: How hard is this to realistically setup (as has been mentioned, it may take a few turns and is difficult to do in one-go), how hard is it to protect, and how reliably CAN you set it up given the deck's tools.

Also, how good is the deck without this setup? That's probably the biggest question. Can this deck, without all that, just grind it out and win, and how reliant would the list be on that specific combo working.

I think your questions are spot-on. We agree, mostly, on how the kill is executed. These questions must now take precedence in a debate of the kill's merit.

My thoughts...

To realistically set this up, you need to hit Empath or a Green Sun. You grab Deadeye. Your opponent sits there and thinks. Depending on your board state, he may just kill the Empath on the spot and not give you the chance to pair it up. Smarter opponents will wait until you cast Deadeye, then remove Deadeye in response to the Soulbond trigger. Obviously this can be prevented with smart Therapy usage. Once Deadeye is paired, it becomes almost impossible to deal with short of something like Supreme Verdict, and it's GOING to tutor Palinchron and RSD. That's a given. It's a fair assumption that you're not going to be able to play Deadeye, flicker Empath, then play Palinchron all in the same turn, as that would be 15 mana. So, a more likely scenario is that you pass the turn with Deadeye and Empath up, then on their end step, you flicker to grab Palinchron and RSD, untap and win. This means that the combo is essentially a 2-turn, 1-card combo, which is fairly compact when you get down to it.

As for how hard it is to protect, as mentioned, there is basically one window for the opponent to answer the combo: in response to the Soulbond trigger, do [something] to the Deadeye. Once its bonded, it'll take a sweeper to actually get rid of it. The fact that the combo basically protects itself is insane.

Reliability, I do not feel is a problem. You have 3 Green Sun + the Empath himself, as well as Brainstorms and Tops + shuffles. You also have an additional 4 copies of Deadeye, thanks to Wish. Additionally, you're very rarely going to be going balls-deep combo, I feel. I think that it plays more like Bant Survival - you're doing all of these things, and then suddenly Iona. That's the ethic that Scapewish was originally designed under, as well, although Scapewish has become progressively more combo as the deck evolved.

The most important question, then: how good is it without the combo.

Deadeye is obviously insane with any non-Explorer creature in the entire deck. That isn't a concern.
Empath is industry standard for tutoring non-green 6+drops via Green Sun. Nothing new there.
Palinchron is a 4/5 flying batterskull without vigilance or lifelink. That's kind of a raw deal for 7 mana, but, it DOES always protect itself, because it untaps the mana necessary to bounce it when it comes into play. Considering that once you hit 7 mana, it's essentially a "free creature," I think that it's acceptable if not up to today's standards overall.
Rune-Scarred is a 6/6 flyer that replaces himself with the best card in your deck. I've used Demon before when tinkering with Gifts Ungiven, because he enables the chain of Gifts -> Unburial + Demon, Demon for Nightmare....at which point you can loop Demon through Nightmare to tutor for as many cards as you need. I've liked Demon in the past, and I don't think he's "just bad" here. He's also a pretty good target to slam down off of Show and Tell, although not as good as Frost Titan for obvious reasons.
Venser is the nuts. He's been picking up steam in other decks as well lately, and with good reason. I'm never unhappy to draw a Venser, regardless of the deck I'm playing.

The deck overall sports Living Wish as a fast and easy way to get to Volrath's Stronghold, or to deploy an answer or a threat, or to assemble a Deadeye engine. Every creature in the deck generates value of some kind, and is at least a 2-for-1. It has the usual Nic Fit deployment of sweepers, a few spot removal, some discard, and some bombs.

I DO feel that another solid bomb, a combat-based one, would not be a horrible idea....just to give the aggro plan a bit more oomph. The 4-drop slot is probably where this should come -- kind of analogous to Scapewish's Huntmasters. Master Biomancer makes Explorers, Oracles, and Strixes all 3/3s, which is not terrible. I'm not sure what other U/G options there are, though. If I could get away with running Frost Titan in addition to Deadeye/RSD/Palinchron, that would be fantastic...but I think that 4 6+drops is 1 too many. I do suspect that if I were to run this deck on Saturday at Jupiter, Frost Titan would get the nod over RSD, just because he's more combat-oriented and better vs Show and Tell.

[Zombie]

The Maga stuff reminds me of TS-Lor Standard, when people were running Merrow Witsniper as a kill in a heavily combo oriented Reveillark build. Then they realized that wtf, infinite life + infinite bounce + 20-something to the dome a turn is a win. It was a better idea to just be a better Mannequin deck that could randomly wtfpwn people with a combo (and otherwise just show gross disregard for all the basic principles of the game with Lark+Double recursion)

If Abrupt Decay is a concern, btw, infinite Vensers owns it. Bounces the spell to hand from the stack, no countering at all. You can Venser Thrun for example.

[Arianrhod]

The Maga stuff reminds me of TS-Lor Standard, when people were running Merrow Witsniper as a kill in a heavily combo oriented Reveillark build. Then they realized that wtf, infinite life + infinite bounce + 20-something to the dome a turn is a win. It was a better idea to just be a better Mannequin deck that could randomly wtfpwn people with a combo (and otherwise just show gross disregard for all the basic principles of the game with Lark+Double recursion)

If Abrupt Decay is a concern, btw, infinite Vensers owns it. Bounces the spell to hand from the stack, no countering at all. You can Venser Thrun for example.

I love Reveillark, and you know that you miss those times. Lark + Double + Mannequin was just fun.

And yeah, Venser also owns Supreme Verdict and any/all Miracles cards.

@Kich and Architect -- there's a big post of mine that apparently ended last page. Just FYI so it doesn't get missed.

[TheArchitect]

To realistically set this up, you need to hit Empath or a Green Sun. You grab Deadeye. Your opponent sits there and thinks. Depending on your board state, he may just kill the Empath on the spot and not give you the chance to pair it up. Smarter opponents will wait until you cast Deadeye, then remove Deadeye in response to the Soulbond trigger. Obviously this can be prevented with smart Therapy usage. Once Deadeye is paired, it becomes almost impossible to deal with short of something like Supreme Verdict, and it's GOING to tutor Palinchron and RSD. That's a given. It's a fair assumption that you're not going to be able to play Deadeye, flicker Empath, then play Palinchron all in the same turn, as that would be 15 mana. So, a more likely scenario is that you pass the turn with Deadeye and Empath up, then on their end step, you flicker to grab Palinchron and RSD, untap and win. This means that the combo is essentially a 2-turn, 1-card combo, which is fairly compact when you get down to it.

What you are describing would take 10 mana to do :/ GSZ for empath (4), cast deadeye (6), flicker empath for palichron (2).

Most of the time they combo will take 3-4 turns to set up.

With 8 lands (which is quiet a bit), the best you can do is this:
1. GSZ empath get deadeye
2. Cast deadeye, eot get palichron
3. Cast palichron and go nuts

With 7 lands its a whole turn slower.

I think the 4 drop you want is Thrun. Or if you have strix, wolfir silver heart might be better. Idk.

[Kich867]

What you are describing would take 10 mana to do :/ GSZ for empath (4), cast deadeye (6), flicker empath for palichron (2).

Most of the time they combo will take 3-4 turns to set up.

With 8 lands (which is quiet a bit), the best you can do is this:
1. GSZ empath get deadeye
2. Cast deadeye, eot get palichron
3. Cast palichron and go nuts

With 7 lands its a whole turn slower.

I think the 4 drop you want is Thrun. Or if you have strix, wolfir silver heart might be better. Idk.

I think the idea here is that the flow of the game would make step 1 a natural event. Like, we can GSZ for dead on 4 mana, by the time we have 6-8 mana (depending on what we're banking and how much we know about their hand) we have them on what is essentially a two turn clock.

Also, despite popular belief, they don't -always- have it. And smart play can purposely -force- their answers to lesser threats prematurely. If they're banking removal for the soulbond trigger, what are they doing about this Thragtusk, or Thrun, or Zegana, and so on? What about the Cabal therapies we have in the yard that we're dumping on them before going off?

The scenarios where we have nothing but a green sun's zenith in hand apparently VS their full grip of answers isn't exactly the norm.

[Star|Scream]

In scapewish during the late game if you are hellbent and draw into a burning wish or scapeshift, you can just win on the spot. Is there anything similar in this list?

[Arianrhod]

In scapewish during the late game if you are hellbent and draw into a burning wish or scapeshift, you can just win on the spot. Is there anything similar in this list?

Best thing I can think of would be late-game drawing a Zenith or a Witness to get back Deadeye and rebuild with whatever from there, depending on the board state and the graveyard state. I guess if you're in the lategame and you haven't used Empath somehow, that would do it, too.

Nothing is ever really going to be able to compare to Scapewish's combo, though, to be fair. That's a literal one-card combo, since it functions off of lands.

The thing to consider when comparing Scapewish and Deadeye is not their respective win conditions, but how they can get to, protect, and interact with their win conditions.

Also, Scapewish's combo is much stronger because it's more of the focus of the deck. Deadeye is more of a value-based deck that has a combo built into it.

[Tao]

I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.

@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.

@kich:
- the list doesn't even have any lesser threats so you can't bait anything

@Starscream:
- no

[Arianrhod]

I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.

@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.


Deadeye is fine without the combo, because it combos with everything. Like, if you have ANYTHING else in play, he goes nuts. If you hit 6 mana and you don't have anything else in hand or in play, I'm sorry, you've already lost the game. Just the way it is. Also, Consecrated Sphinx has a high chance of accomplishing exactly nothing. A full 75% of the time when you play Sphinx, it gets Swords'd EoT for no value. I fail to see the difference. I DO agree that Deadeye currently has a problem where it doesn't have enough smaller threats with which to bait out removal spells. Like, by the time Scapewish is dropping Primeval or Rector is slamming Baneslayers and Sun Titan, the opponent should be out of resources.

I also strongly disagree with you on Venser. There's a reason he's a format staple. In a vacuum, I agree that he's inferior to Jace. However, in the same vacuum, Black Lotus is inferior to Jace. You have to consider how they're being used, in conjunction with the rest of the deck.

Say you cut Venser for Jace. Or, I guess that would probably be a bad example since Venser is one of the most degenerate things to pair with Deadeye. Say you take the 3 opens slots that are currently in the main deck, and you make them Jaces. What does that accomplish? What does Jace buy you? He has no synergy with the rest of the deck, at all.

[Arianrhod]

I will say, though, that I do appreciate you being the voice of reason in the wilderness here, Tao. But, at the end of the day, I'm willing to run this thing as a major event -- $30 entry, playsets of duals to the top 8. It's not like I'm planning on jamming this at my local. I'm going to try this. And maybe it'll be terrible, and you can say I told you -- or maybe I'll top 8 with it, and you'll admit that there's something here. Either way, thanks for keeping the thread honest.

[Kich867]

I will say, though, that I do appreciate you being the voice of reason in the wilderness here, Tao. But, at the end of the day, I'm willing to run this thing as a major event -- $30 entry, playsets of duals to the top 8. It's not like I'm planning on jamming this at my local. I'm going to try this. And maybe it'll be terrible, and you can say I told you -- or maybe I'll top 8 with it, and you'll admit that there's something here. Either way, thanks for keeping the thread honest.

I do think that there needs to be some larger more intimidating threats a little earlier on. I'll nuke out a list when I get home from work. I'd like to jam force of will and maybe some more counterspells / discard into the mix. I agree with the mindset that BUG Fit should be better against combo, which means I think it has to be the most disruptive of the three.

[Tao]

@Arian: Name one advantage this has over Scapewish.

[Arianrhod]

@Arian: Name one advantage this has over Scapewish.

A winnable combo matchup. I'm fine with losing points against fair decks to be able to beat combo in the meta that's developed locally. It's at least 2/3-3/4 combo here, and Scapewish is strictly unplayable currently because of that fact.

[Tao]

Hmm, in that case I would just play BUG Aggro (maybe RUG). With such an insane amount of Combo they need be punished. A deck with Daze, FoW, Hymn to Tourach, DR Shaman, Liliana and Wasteland (maybe Stifle, too) does a million times better job at that than any Nic Fit version possibly could.

[Viridia]

Yeah, but just maybe, some of us hate playing tempo decks, and like playing midrange/control and we try to make the respective deck as fun and strong as possible, rather then jumping off to a completely other deck just because there are some bad matchups ( which can be fixed fairly well) :-)

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, but just maybe, some of us hate playing tempo decks, and like playing midrange/control and we try to make the respective deck as fun and strong as possible, rather then jumping off to a completely other deck just because there are some bad matchups ( which can be fixed fairly well) :-)

Pretty much this. I have everything for BUG Delver except the Sinkholes....and everything for UB Stiflenought, which I was heavily considering for the event. But, if I can figure out a way to make Nic Fit work, I will. I've poured an enormous amount of work into this archetype over the past almost two years now, and I don't like the idea of abandoning it just because of something trifling and transient like meta. It's actually in my best interest to do so IMO, because I play a LOT better with Nic Fit than I do with other decks...to the point where even if the meta isn't good for Nic Fit, per se, I actually can injure myself more by playing the "right deck."

[anwei]

I think you guys are a bit blinded by how cool it sounds.

@Arian:
- The main problem of the Panoptic list was not that it was spells instead of creatures. It was having expensive cards that are only good in combination with other expensive cards. The same is true here.
- Deadeye is not good without the Combo. Any 6-drop that needs help or dies to removal without value is not playable. You are likely to win the game if you untap with it but the same is true for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and these do not need any other creature in play. Palinchron is terrible and Venser is inferior to Jace TMS by miles, these two are like Grizzly Bears and Tarmogoyf.


I'm definitely intrigued by these ideas, and have been playing with the (conceptually comparable) Intuition-Rites combo Bug lists from much earlier in this thread as well.

Here's the main issue I have with the Intuition list, in testing, which I think applies to this (and Scapeshift!) as well:
Throwing a combo, even a compact combo full of cards which are reasonable on their own, into any deck needs justification in terms of the metagame, and I'm not sure that having a slow combo element solves anything in these decks.
The paper-rock scissors archetype wheels, though imperfect, can be revealing. I think the most helpful is the aggro<midrange<combo<control<aggro-control<aggro... ordering. Having an alternate win-con is really spicy when it fits on the opposite side of the wheel, as it lets you beat your worst matchups. I sometimes run Aggro-Control (or, if you want, Midrange Control) lists like Zenith Bant, and love fitting Natural Order into the board. Decks like Maverick (which was at its peak when I played a lot of Bant) are very tough, as they have way more/better ways to address my dudes. Aggro-Control loses to Aggro loses to Midrange, and if they can swing Aggro-wards, they can beat me before Jace and Brainstorm can take over the game. Post-board, bringing in Natural Order is almost impossible for Maverick to beat. Combo whoops Midrange.

Here's the point: Nic Fit attacks the meta from a strange midrange/control position which can go way over-the-top of any fair decks. Aggro-Control "Tempo" lists are reduced to (weak) "Aggro" if they lose their mana denial strategy, and get mowed down by fatties. Midrange decks (including Esper, here) are too slow and get board-wiped and then mowed down by fatties. Some one called this "inevitability" earlier, and that's right: Nic Fit has it. This happens to be the same niche in the wheel that combo decks exploit, and consequently, adding this aspect to the deck can produce win infinitely (literaly) where the deck could have won with Primeval Titan and 3/3 beasts just fine. The decks which prey on slow fair strategies will still do so, and Nic Fit combo lists are not fast enough to race them - the control package doesn't add enough, quick enough.

TL;DR/Summary: Very generally, adding combo elements doesn't improve bad matchups, it only provides a different way of attacking the decks which Nic Fit already beats.



That said, I think this sort of list is the best way to do go crazy in a "normal" Nic Fit list. Running Empath, Navigator, and Palinchron is only 3 slots and wins, undisrupted, in almost any circumstance. The amount of card selection available to find Empath, GSZ, or Navigator is substantial, so I won't be running Living Wish. Deadeye Navigator can still take over the game, if not dealt with, which makes him a fine play. Palinchron's "Batterskull Evasion" is also decent. Together, the "I've ramped up and now it's time to do something powerful" slot is stronger than before. *And,* they're blue cards, which synergize exceptionally well with Coiling Oracle and Baleful Strix, to make the count for FoW even more reasonable. Against Storm, boarding out cards like Thragtusk for counters leaves you with a compact, tutorable, top-deckable win condition and more disruption.

I'm going to start with:
22 Lands
4 Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Strix
1 Ooze
2 Witness
1 Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Palinchron
2 Jace

4 Brainstorm
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Deed
3 Decay

Forces, 2 Venser, 2 Envelop/Mindbreak Trap, Thrun in the board.

[Tao]

Pretty much this. I have everything for BUG Delver except the Sinkholes....and everything for UB Stiflenought, which I was heavily considering for the event. But, if I can figure out a way to make Nic Fit work, I will. I've poured an enormous amount of work into this archetype over the past almost two years now, and I don't like the idea of abandoning it just because of something trifling and transient like meta. It's actually in my best interest to do so IMO, because I play a LOT better with Nic Fit than I do with other decks...to the point where even if the meta isn't good for Nic Fit, per se, I actually can injure myself more by playing the "right deck."

That's why I asked last page about cool things vs. win percentage. You said that the main reason to play this version is the Combo matchup. You play in a very odd meta with over 50% combo. See it this way: if you keep feeding your midrange decks to Combo they will just playing Combo. Give them hell!

Your Nic Fit version has:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Venser
- 4 Living Wish

RUG/BUG has
- a much faster clock
- 4 Daze
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 Stifle / Hymn to Tourach
- 4 Spell Pierce / DR Shaman
- a better Sideboard

[Kich867]

That's why I asked last page about cool things vs. win percentage. You said that the main reason to play this version is the Combo matchup. You play in a very odd meta with over 50% combo. See it this way: if you keep feeding your midrange decks to Combo they will just playing Combo. Give them hell!

Your Nic Fit version has:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Venser
- 4 Living Wish

RUG/BUG has
- a much faster clock
- 4 Daze
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 Stifle / Hymn to Tourach
- 4 Spell Pierce / DR Shaman
- a better Sideboard

I think it's more that the goal is to produce a Nic Fit deck that has a pretty good combo matchup. This is my shot at a list including the Deadeye / Palinchron combo:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Thragtusk
1x Frost Titan
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Palinchron

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Negate

3x Pernicious Deed

2x Sensei's Divining Top

-- lands and stuff.

This gives us 4 discard, 8 counters (venser included), 2 Venser's.

[TheArchitect]

I think those last 2 lists are better direction for this deck. The reason scapeshift is good is because its a Jund nic fit deck that does a bunch of stuff thats good and then randomly wins with scapeshift if its at 7 lands. And even if you never see that scapeshift, the lands are still good for other cards. Those last 2 lists are solid BUG lists that have 3 cards devoted to deadeye, so the rest of the deck can still function totally optimal even if there is never an opportunity to combo.

Jace doenst need to synergize with anything. Its a stupidly broken card in any deck that can cast him. And even better in a control deck like nic fit. I dont think he syngergizes in esperblade any more than he would these decks, and hes the last card youd cut from esper. That said, I dont think venser is card to cut for him. I actually think venser is pretty good in this deck.

And as for Tao, you wouldn't be posting here, or playing this archetype, if you honestly wanted play to the one and only deck that you thought had the max win % in a given meta. Legacy players are drawn to archetypes which do things they find interesting and then they do what they can to make them work, and make them good. What's interesting doesn't always win games, but it whats important. It what keeps us passionate about the game. Getting what's interesting to us to win games, is what this legacy is all about.

Deadeye is a cool idea, and Id love to see it refined and be competitive, but I remain doubtful.


Also for scapeshift, I still don't think the combo matchup is that awful though, this is totally anecdotal, but at the last 3 big tourneys (1 juptier/2 mythic) I went to the combo decks I played were as followed:
2 S&T
1 TES
1 ANT
1 Reanimtor
1 Dredge (easy matchup, but I had zero GY that day)
2 GW living wish Elves (not hardcore combo, and easy matchup for scapeshift)

Of those, I lost to ANT and won all the others. And against ANT I totally misread him as some kind of RBW aggro/zombie deck, after he went badlands, pass, BR fetch, therapy, pass, fetch, pass, pass, Tendrils for 20! I had the time and cards to slaughter games his tendrils :/ Game 2 he had turn 1 win, even after a therapy.

The rest of my losses in those tourneys were to Bant, Esper, UW blade, Tubro Eldrazi (Turtle), MUD, and monoblack pox. 4 of which SHOULD be good matchups :/

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 Vet
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Ooze
2 Witness
1 Empath
1 Thrun
2 Thragtusk

1 Dinrova Horror
1 Palinchron
1 Deadeye Navigator

2 JMS
1 Batterskull

4 Deed
4 Therapy
2 Pulse

4 GSZ
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Intent

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Tar Pit
4 Misty
4 Verdant
2 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

Horror IS the best win con. It eats the board and doesnt afraid to Show and Tell. Need to reevaluate my blue count though.

[anwei]

I think it's more that the goal is to produce a Nic Fit deck that has a pretty good combo matchup. This is my shot at a list including the Deadeye / Palinchron combo:

...

This gives us 4 discard, 8 counters (venser included), 2 Venser's.

I like the idea of fitting FoW maindeck, but you really want 18 blue cards. Also, when thinning normal Green creatures, pitching Navigator or Palinchron to Force becomes thoroughly awkward. Against fast combo, it's an okay thing to do, as little guys can aren't much slower of a clock than big guys by the time you can play them. But it makes your Forces really awkward in other matches, where you want the combo, as your reasonable pitch count is like 14.

I played around with this some tonight (when our tournament failed to fire), and was not impressed. Opening with Palinchron or Navigator is miserable, obviously. When I comboed out, another reasonable fattie would have been fine instead. Any counterspell or discard spell or removal spell would have been enough to disrupt me, and they had several turns to play find/play it.
I *do* like that throwing Navigator and Palinchron into a normal/fair BUG Nic Fit (with Empath) sideboard opens up an incredible mid/late game (when you know they don't have StP, at least, so you're not running weak/dead slots), but I don't think I'll maindeck this. And really, being able to run a 2-card, tutorable, infinite combo is pretty stinking strong. I'm used to spending 4 sideboard slots to get 3 shots to find Natural Order->Progenitus as a fair trump. This is 2 slots yielding 5 shots to find GSZ->Empath->win.

[Viridia]

Dinrova Horror is actually quite amazing when going infinite, because you basically eat their board and discard their hands at the same time, and it's tutorable with Empath and it's not superbad on its own either ^^

I'm personally trying to make a pick between the Horror and Zegana for that slot, because Zegana is pretty amazing tbh.

I'd also definately want to try and fit in Jace, aswell as Venser, considering they can both be backbreaking cards in certain matchups, and Venser can form a soft-lock if you play with Wish -> Karakas.


I'm not sure if it's the right call to play FoW mainboard, unless your meta is really full of combo, because combo decks are the only decks you want them for, imo.



As soon as i get the few missing cards i'll start brewing aswell, i'm abit busy with my girlfriend in the hospital right now :(

[Arianrhod]

Dinrova Horror is actually quite amazing when going infinite, because you basically eat their board and discard their hands at the same time, and it's tutorable with Empath and it's not superbad on its own either ^^

I'm personally trying to make a pick between the Horror and Zegana for that slot, because Zegana is pretty amazing tbh.

I'd also definately want to try and fit in Jace, aswell as Venser, considering they can both be backbreaking cards in certain matchups, and Venser can form a soft-lock if you play with Wish -> Karakas.


I'm not sure if it's the right call to play FoW mainboard, unless your meta is really full of combo, because combo decks are the only decks you want them for, imo.



As soon as i get the few missing cards i'll start brewing aswell, i'm abit busy with my girlfriend in the hospital right now :(

Hope she feels better soon -- nothing serious, I hope!

I really don't like Dinrova. I've never liked Dinrova. I feel like he's just worse than Frost Titan. I guess Dinrova answers Omniscience as well as everything else, but....eugh. Maybe it's just a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that they can keep whatever card they want. Like, "Target player discards a card" is never good, unless it's happening 80 million times via Raven's Crime. But I dunno -- it's possible that it's better than I'm giving it credit for, I guess.

@Tao -- I fully acknowledge that I -shouldn't- be playing Nic Fit right now. But I guess I just have too much loyalty to the archetype =) And, at the end of the day, I play other decks when I feel like playing other decks. I have the ability to field Esperblade, BUG Delver, Shardless, 12post, U/B Stiflenought, AggroLoam, Miracles, Jund, Junk, BUGStill, and a few more random options; and I'm 4-8 cards from probably another half dozen archetypes. But, when I want to win, I play Nic Fit, because I have the experience with the deck. I can make it sing.

-------------------

A thought occurs.

I think there's a way that we can accomplish a straighter BUG control oriented list, while still making Deadeye better (but keeping the "kill" compact). Something like:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Master Biomancer
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Palinchron

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

(note: 42 cards -- just a sketch of the idea, not a finished decklist)

This loses the Wish package, which is rough, but I like this direction overall -- creatures-as-spells. Deadeye wants creatures to interact with, preferably creatures with CiP triggers. However, blue control wants spells. I added a few more early threats, and I specifically went for Obstinate Baloth over Thrun BECAUSE Baloth doesn't have Hexproof. I WANT my opponent to use removal on him, so as to clear the way for Deadeye shenanigans.

I think that even if all of my other thoughts on this list turn out to be trash, Spellstutter Sprite is an enormous takeaway. Sprite gives us early interaction against basically everything, is a blue card for Force, and plays well with Deadeye, both as a flicker target and as a way to protect Deadeye from Swords.

Biomancer actually seems legit as a 4-drop threat, and I'm wondering if a 2nd copy would just be better than the Baloth. Making Spellstutters 3/3s and Cliques 5/3s (as well as Zenithing up 3/3 Explorers and Oracles) seems really legit. He also has a favorable interaction with Zegana if you get to that point.

The presence of Zegana means that we can forego other win conditions and just focus in on Venser. You can draw as much of your draw as you need to to hit a Venser while going infinite, and at that point you bounce everything forever. Zegana is also better than Rune-Scarred Demon when you're playing a fair game.

An exploratory sideboard would be something like:

4 Force of Will
3 Negate
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Trygon Predator
3 Blue Elemental Blast

Leyline seems like the best graveyard hate, since we can protect it pretty easily. The BEBs and the Trygon I'm less sure about, but I'm pretty sure that the board starts 4 Force 4 Leyline 3 Negate.

I dunno. It's a rough thought, and I feel one that has merit as a "better" evolution of the Deadeye deck. Since the Empath kill is so compact, I do agree that the shell should be more controlling. And if we can make the controlling shell creature-based so as to make Deadeye better outside of the combo kill, I see no reason why we shouldn't. It is annoying, though, that Faceless Butcher costs 4, and there aren't any similar options outside of white. I want spot removal of some kind, aside from just Vensering.

What do you guys think of something like this?

[TheArchitect]

This looks like a step in the right direction. I love me some spellstutter sprite, Im not sure if its good in here though. I might be prefect though idk. Clique is also another generally good card that fits this deck well, regardless of his interaction with deadeye.

I dont think master biomancer will be that good, you should give wolfir silver heart a try. Getting +4/+4 power and an 8/8 the turn you cast him seems better than biomancers ability to give addition creatures you cast on future turns +2/+2.

I dont think finks or baloth are necessary. Personally, id rather have abupt decays or jaces instead of them. Or just cut them to get to 38 non-lands.

[Tao]

Okay, that is a fair point. I like seeing this kind of dedication. But still, the problem is that I think that the list is too caught up in the danger of cool things. Maybe try to go for something like this. Overall I would think this should do fairly well in your meta. If you are hellbent on playing with Deadeye I can't help you but I still do not think it is nearly as good as simple Jaces.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Brainstorm

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize


SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 4 Force of Will

[Kich867]

Okay, that is a fair point. I like seeing this kind of dedication. But still, the problem is that I think that the list is too caught up in the danger of cool things. Maybe try to go for something like this. Overall I would think this should do fairly well in your meta. If you are hellbent on playing with Deadeye I can't help you but I still do not think it is nearly as good as simple Jaces.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Brainstorm

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize


SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 4 Force of Will

This is the same(?) list in your sig, I guess I'm just a little confused as to how this has a good matchup against combo. Beating combo game one is huge, personally, I'm not a fan of playing decks that are particularly soft to any one thing. Like throwing your game one against combo out the window just because you're boarding into 8 counterspells doesn't sound like it'll actually get there, the FOW's need to be main decked.

And in regards to pitching combo pieces to force of will, that's fine. Personally I don't think I'd play with the combo after sleeping on it, since it's pretty clunky, and plop 2-3 jaces in the deck as Tao is discussing. But even if I was, pitching a combo piece to a force of will is absolutely acceptable. The idea here would be to use forces against shit you actually can't answer, because quite frankly the deck answers -a lot- of things on it's own between Deed and Pulse and "Big Dudes".

If you're forcing something, you damn well need to, otherwise, save it. You're not keeping them off balance with it or protecting your combo, you're legitimately stopping something that might kill you if it resolves. I have to do more tinkering with my list, though a part of me is telling myself to brew an old-fashion UB Control list, which seems likely since it won't cost me anything at this point..

[Tao]

@kich: Compared to my sig list it has additional Discard, Liliana and Ooze MD; and much more Combo hate in the SB. I don't think you can include much more hate without affecting the deck's functionality, but maybe 2 Vendilion Clques or Vensers would be possible.
I think that maindeck Force of Will will not be working, you would get beaten by Jund, BUG and RUG if you start 1 for 2ing yourself and include additional bad topdecks in the deck.

@discussion: I like the brewing with Nic Fit a lot. Often very useful stuff comes out of it, like Rector, Scapewish and Punishing Fire lists. Or, in this case, the Negate/FoW sideboard which looks like I will adopt it into my normal BUG list. So I hope I don't appear to be too negative with my criticism. It is just that I am sure that Deadeye is horrible, that is all.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Further thoughts on the Deadeye package.

1. Deadeye is ridiculous in and of itself. It's actually tempting me to go back to Coiling Oracle, because blinking Coiling Oracle multiple times is awesome. Not to mention Thragtusk, Empath, Witness, etc.

2. Palinchron, on the other hand, is blargh: it doesn't do anything without Deadeye, and even with Deadeye it seems like win-more.

3. Empath Targets that work with Deadeye only need to go infinite to win on the spot, not to guarantee a win. Just think about it: if you allow me to live long enough to blink Frost Titan, Rune-Scarred Demon, Dinrova Horror, Grave Titan, Kokusho, or any other 6-drop creature with an EtB or LtB effect one to three times a turn, then you just sealed your fate.

[Iron Buddha]

If you start running cards like Stroke of Genius, take a look at Cunning Wish. The best Wish may also open up the window for Force of Will by pushing the blue count.

[anwei]

If you start running cards like Stroke of Genius, take a look at Cunning Wish. The best Wish may also open up the window for Force of Will by pushing the blue count.

Wish options of an "X" kill spell, Abrupt Decay, Counter, Surgical Extraction, perhaps a trap, but what else?