[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[vilnico]

@Arian:
I do play a Rusalka as a sac outlet, still Thoughtseize on GSZ does not help -.-
anyway, this is not what I wanted to tell.


I have to agree with Tao. I do not see at all how the latest list does anything against Combo. And I don't see how this is better than Scapeshift in that respect.
And by far, Nic Fit is not suited to play vs Combo.

Wanna play vs Combo ? play Force of Will.
Wanna rape Combo ? play BUG as Tao said.

I do not think it reasonnable to make it an achievement to find a Combo-resilient build for Nic Fit.
The best one could do is to make a main deck build good against S&T, but I doubt one could do better than that.
Nic Fit dies to Combo, that a fact, then make a Sideboard ready for it.

This said, you can do cool stuff with Nic Fit, and this reminds me when I was playing Full English Breakfast with a Reveillark-Venser loop to bounce the board of my opponent.
But those are *cool* things, and they are dangerous (and sure very fun :D, and yes I know what I am talking about).
And your cool stuff with the Deadeye, seems a bit of a gas-factory to me (I don't know if this means anything in English, at least in French it does ^^).
If the goal is to play a mid-range combo I will not move from my Omniscience build to this. Even in that role, I see Scapeshift better there.

[Siiig]

Also for scapeshift, I still don't think the combo matchup is that awful though, this is totally anecdotal, but at the last 3 big tourneys (1 juptier/2 mythic) I went to the combo decks I played were as followed:
2 S&T
1 TES
1 ANT
1 Reanimtor
1 Dredge (easy matchup, but I had zero GY that day)
2 GW living wish Elves (not hardcore combo, and easy matchup for scapeshift)

Of those, I lost to ANT and won all the others. And against ANT I totally misread him as some kind of RBW aggro/zombie deck, after he went badlands, pass, BR fetch, therapy, pass, fetch, pass, pass, Tendrils for 20! I had the time and cards to slaughter games his tendrils :/ Game 2 he had turn 1 win, even after a therapy.

The rest of my losses in those tourneys were to Bant, Esper, UW blade, Tubro Eldrazi (Turtle), MUD, and monoblack pox. 4 of which SHOULD be good matchups :/

Are you planning to go to Jupiter?

I really wish I could get a better feel for beating down combo. But I do have a TES to play against locally now. Reanimator was super favorable (after adding void to my GY, and realizing if I mull to that and therapy for SnT I win).

[TheArchitect]

Are you planning to go to Jupiter?

I really wish I could get a better feel for beating down combo. But I do have a TES to play against locally now. Reanimator was super favorable (after adding void to my GY, and realizing if I mull to that and therapy for SnT I win).

No Im busy this weekend. Ill be at mythic though.

My best advise would be to playtest against the combo decks on cockatrice. Knowing how different combo decks operate can be really useful. Also, go read up on Tin Fins, Caleb Durward recently top8d with it and its a solid deck that we will probably see more of. Also my philosophy, which a lot of players differ from, is that when playing a non-tempo deck, I will take out any and every clock piece if I have cards in my SB that could possibly interact against a combo deck. If they cant win, I win. But no matter how many huntmasters I see, Im not going to win before them if I don't interact with them.

Like even against S&T Id bring in mindbreak trap. Its hilarious when they go cantrip>petal>S&T - EXILED. Or if you have a REB in hand, you can use the MBT to end a counterwar. Its going to do a whole lot more than a huntmaster or thrag will. I usually try to leave in one of those beaters to GSZ for, but the rest can go. Prime stays, if you have him in hand and they show in anything that doesnt win that turn, you can often untap and win.

Some more tips for scapewish vs combo:
- A common trend for TES, ANT and hermit druid combo, (even omnicences) is to run gitaxian probe, in addition to regular discard and therapies. If you have a top out, don't draw more REB/MBT than you need to. Instead, float them on the top of you your library for as long as you can (draw them before you need to shuffle, but avoid shuffling if you can help it). And just draw them with top when you need them, it catches ALOT of people off guard.

- Dont be afraid to REB cantips at any point of the game if you are against a non-S&T combo deck. Decks like ANT/TES dont actually keep a winning 7 most of the time. They have to sculpt for a few turns usually, and besides diminishing returns, they dont play much blue spells once they are already comboing, so REBing a cantrip can often buy you a lot of time. Also, once they are comboing, if try to past in flames a cantrip or even just hit with off an Ad Nauseum, sometimes countering those cantrips can really mess them up too. Resolving AdD or PiF usually means they think they have the win, but if they arent expecting disruptions they can fizzle easily.


- Burning wish for thoughtsieze to interact on turn 3 is good, but if you think you have time slaughter games is obviously the nuts against these decks. Below is what I would name for various hard matchup combo decks and my logic (which my be flawed, anyone feel free to leave imput):
--- ANT: Tendril of agony - They lose on the spot. Godknows why, but most lists dont run BW or empty so you win! And if they do the empty, at least deed can answer it.
--- TES: This is tricky, If you have seen their hand, try to them to discard something important. Otherwise, Id say name BW.
--- HyperGenesis: HyperGenesis
--- Sneak: Griselbrand - Again if you know their hand, take a combo piece from it. If for some reason you did some crazy play where you got to cast a slaughtergames before they could make 3 mana for Show, name that, otherwise name Griselbrand. They win if he gets in play. We can IB Emra without having to face down a 14 card hand of counterspells. If they sneak emy they sneak emy, but its still better than a Grislebrand.
--- Omnicence: Again, unless we out mana them somehow, saw their hand, etc, name BW. They have 3 MD shows, and 4 BW which can get shows OR other good stuff. If its at the point where we are casting slaughter games, mana probably doesnt matter, so the fact that BW+show costs 5 doesnt really matter anymore.
--- High Tide: Time Spiral - They cant wish for it, and they have a much harder time winning with out it.
--- Reanimator: Not sure whats right here. I think entomb is right G1, show and tell G2/3.
--- Hermit druid: If you get to cast a slaughter games, they have probably already lost, but name Narcomoeba. They cant win G1 without it. If you name other stuff like azami or their angel in theory they could still get you with narc beats or zombie tokens. Sometimes the SB into belcher combo, but thats hard to read, I think id still name narc.
--- Belcher: Belcher. We can deal with goblins.

[Ayotte]

My best advise would be to playtest against the combo decks on cockatrice.

Good luck with that. They're being sued.

[Star|Scream]

Good luck with that. They're being sued.

A: They received a cease and desist, not a lawsuit

B: You can still play on cockatrice, however you cannot download the client or use the main server.

[sderenatore]

B: You can still play on cockatrice, however you cannot download the client or use the main server.
How? I checked more than one server and it seems they're all down.

P.S. @Arianrhod: Yes I tested Palinchron and the infinite mana combo. It is certainly cool, but in my opinion:
1) It occupies a sideboard slot that could be used better
2) It forces you to play cards maindeck that are just bad in your opening hand or early in the game (Blue Sun's Zenith, Palinchron itself etc.), while not gaining that much power later
3) The combo when disrupted abandons you to topdeck mode.

Why I would play prime speaker and the rest?
In my opinion the deck should evolve into a highly synergistic mechanism. I would rather play many strong by theirselves CIP abilities, than a combo with suboptimal pieces when played alone.
Basically, if you get Zegana online, you have literally answers to anything (you can even interact with the stack thanks to the snake).
However, I agree with you that a few changes to the creature pack should be done in order to get the most from Zegana.
Also, Cloudthresher is sick, really. Thanks to him you can still have a "combo" ending that doesn't target and that is good on itself (and more important, doesnt require another card like Palinchron, which during a combo just generates mana).

Mulldrifter looks like fun!

[Zombie]

I concur with those observations. Even if you want an infinite combo, anything past the singleton Palinchron to enable infinite mana is excessive. Whether that's sideboard Maga, or Stroke/BlueSun, or whatever else. It's either a hardcastable utility dork, Navigator or Palinchron or it's out.

[Qweerios]

I usualy just step out of the thread when I see conversations like these but I think it's about time to move on. I don't need to test cards like Storm Crow and Chimney Imp to know that they don't belong in Nic Fit.

Obviously they have some greater purpose elsewhere...

[panda samurai]

dude, you did a great job pointing out the key cards in nic fit but you forgot some that are considered really important. 1, deathrite shaman. this card is insane in the mirror and other decks like maverick or control decks die to deathrite. 2, liliana of the veil. this card is good against combo, sneak and show, and is a threat when played. 3, sensei's divining top. you should run about 2-3 in the deck. the reason is because top fixes dead draws. 4 hymn to tourach. some people think this is a card that should not be played in nic fit but they are wrong. you have a bad match up against combo and hymn gets rid of the gas that storm or high tide usually need to storm off.

[panda samurai]

sorry replied to wrong thread

[EpicLevelCommoner]

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Island

4 Force of Will
4 Negate
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Leyline of the Void
3 Carpet of Flowers

Notes:
-Wolfir Silverheart is basically a GSZable Batterskull with more power and less longevity.
-There is no point in running Mystic Snake over Venser 1.0. It'd be a different case if GSZ was an instant, but it ain't.
-Blue count G2: 20 to 22.
-Mindbreak Trap over Leyline of Sanctity as Mindbreak Trap is better against Storm as a whole.

Anyhow, quick question: what is the crucial choke-point for countering Storm-based combo? My guess would be at whatever would give them four mana for Empty or Tendrils OR their Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor after activating LED (if they have done so).

[sherko7]

Just got back from play GB Nic Fit in a 4-3 performance at a 60-70 something player tourney. Lost against Zombardment (1-2), U/R Delver (1-2), Sneak Show (0-2). Won against UW RiP Helm (2-0), Zombardment (2-0), Merfolk (2-0) and Reanimator (2-1). The losses to Zombardment and U/R Delver were a bit disappointing. They were mostly due to really bad draws (mull to 5 in 4 of the games in those 2 losses). In the 2 of the 3 games against U/R Delver, I had to keep a hand with 1 land and just SDT as I was already 2 cards down. The Reanimator game was just plain epic! Might post a tournament report if I feel like it tomorrow. :laugh:

I'm really contemplating on splashing blue. I was originally planning to go white but I think white only improves most of our already good match ups. Anyway, will be staying straight up GB rock until I can make up my mind on what color to splash. Will need time to acquire the cards though. :eek:

The deck I played:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Innocent Blood
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge

[TheArchitect]

Anyhow, quick question: what is the crucial choke-point for countering Storm-based combo? My guess would be at whatever would give them four mana for Empty or Tendrils OR their Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor after activating LED (if they have done so).

You usually want to counter their tutors/wishs (or abviously AdN). Sometimes they will get past in flames and then your counters only slowed them down a turn or 2. Hit their tutors after they blow a bunch of mana and they will take longer to recover. They wont walk into counterspells though. They will see your hand and play around them, discard them, or silence you. So you might find yourself having to counter duresses/silences.

[Karang029]

So I took Rector to a small event for a polluted delta first place, and store credit for 2nd. I went 3-1 then went cut to top 4(small event sadly)

Round 1: Bye yup I was disappointed

Round 2: UR Painterstone
Game 1: I got comboed turn 5 after using therapy on both his stones and his servant, but he got welder out and I couldn't draw a removal.

Game 2: Took a gamble of no land Leyline of Sanctity and enough good stuff to make it worthwhile. Gamble paid off and I rode Sigarda to a win.

Game 3: Mulled to 6 and had a therapy, leyline, explorer and verdant catacombs. I kept. I ended up dropping a Rector since I knew he had an emrakul in hand and I knew he had the Show in his deck as a plan B. So I kept the Rector and the tower open to Fetters Emrakul when he dropped it. I dropped Sigarda and 6 a turn did the job(explorer joined in)

Round 3: Goblins 2-0
Game 1: My explorer holds his lackey at bay. He gets some guys and I deed wiping him off. Thragtusk and win. I

Game 2: He drops a Blood Moon, and a Warren Instigator. Why he'd side Blood Moon in is beyond me. I turn 2 Sigarda and poop on him.

Round 4: Combo Elves 0-2
Game 1: He goes off I die.

Game 2: see no hate and I slow him down with a deed but he goes off with an emrakul in my face.

Top 4: Reanimator: 2-1
Game 1: I win the roll and go turn 1 Deathrite into FoW. He goes Iona turn1 off a dark rit. I try to words it, but he has the FoW3

Game 2: Leyline slows him down, and I end up Yosei Locking him out for several turns and kill him.

Game 3: Leyline, Deathrite, and Savenging Ooze hit the table and he just scoops.

Top 2: Combo Elves. 0-2
Game 1: Turn 4 Combo is gg.

Game 2: This game took 45 minutes. I was able to deed him 5 times, but he got a Regal Force and was able to go off from it the next turn and I couldn't do anything.

Sorry for the short report. I'll fix it up and post the list when I get home.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, time for some updates.

I've been in an "other things" mood lately, and haven't been playing as much Nic Fit in general -- it's nice to use some of the other cards in my collection periodically =)

That does not mean that I've stopped thinking and updating my lists, though, and I will be jamming some Explorers again soon...not sure about Mythic at this point, but more on that later.

Rector:

My Drive list (in my sig) was slightly out of date maindeck, so that's been fixed now. The maindeck change was -1 Master of the Wild Hunt +1 Green Sun's Zenith, which gives the deck the full set. I think that this is primarily of important for fighting against Jund, because Zenith is a bit more important there (both to get Explorers early to ramp past their tempo, and to get Sigarda later on).

The sideboard is a peculiar beast. The meta right now is primarily nonblue control/combo, and there is a very small blue presence overall. The primary blue decks are RIP Miracles and Esperblade, with a few BUG decks floating around. I do think that the meta is poised for a resurgence of RUG Delver, in particular, with tempo in general being strong right now. The control decks have started to get a bit too inbred, and I think that they will soon be punished for that with an increased aggro presence. Maverick, likewise, is well-positioned but largely underground currently. Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper are still fantastic answers to Abrupt Decay, and Maverick's bevy of hatebears makes it surprisingly good at fighting combo when tuned to do so. Additionally, Dredge and Reanimator are both the best-kept secrets in the format. I've been feeling this for a while now, and Jupiter's top 8 proved me correct, sporting 2 copies of Dredge and a Reanimator (with several more in attendance throughout the top 16 and lower).

The fixtures:

1x Humility
1x Nether Void

These are the "bombs" for their respective matchups. You still can't leave the house without either of these.

Screw your turn 0 kill:

2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Chalice of the Void

Leylines are strong vs Hymn decks, Liliana decks, and most storm-based combo. Mindbreak Traps are obvious. Chalice of the Viod goes with Enlightened Tutor, which will appear in the next section, and is strong against any and all Chrome Mox decks: Belcher, TES, Spy, and other traditionally very fast decks. Chalice has a secret second mode, though, too: Chalice@1 vs combo Elves.

For the Fairest:

2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull

Here's some experimental stuff. Enlightened Tutors increase your internal stability when Rector is in danger, as well as turning on Chalice sooner vs unfair decks, and acting as extra copies of Pernicious Deed or Humility when you really need them, vs Elves and Show and Tell respectively. It can also find Top in grindier matchups where the filtering is at its most important, like Jund, for example. Elspeth is still the best 'walker for the deck. Garruk might have slightly more synergy, but he has less of an endgame: usually he flips off of a Rector (+ synergy), and then gets Abrupt Decay'd because he's one of the 3 cards in the deck they can hit with it (- because suck). Elspeth goes well with Moat, is effective at keeping Jace in check, and gives you a way to unbalance your opponent's Humility (which sucks monkey balls). She also generates a solid stream of annoyances for ground-pounder decks like Jund, and builds to a devastating ultimate which makes Deed into Beastmode while shutting off our opponent's removal. Batterskull is purely theoretical. I wanted an artifact bomb that plays well with Enlightened Tutor and creates back-breaking plays against control decks, who have a hard time getting rid of it effectively. Not sure if Skull is what I want or not, but that's what the "slot" is for, at the least.

Miscellaneous hatred:

1x Blind Obedience
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives

Blind Obedience is surprisingly awesome. It's good vs Sneak Attack, obviously, but it's also good against things like Combo Elves, TinFins, Dredge, TES, fringe vs Spy, and, perhaps most important, it's good vs control! This one might not make sense, since they rarely have artifacts or creatures, but it does have another ability: Extort. Like with Recycle, it triggers on spell cast, not resolution. We have plenty of mana to throw into it, and it makes it surprisingly easy to drain someone out -- even through something like a Leyline of Sanctity, say. With Recycle, 2 Tops, and Obedience (not a hard setup to imagine vs control), you can engineer the following setup:

In response to a Recycle trigger, draw off of Top A. Trigger resolves, draw Top.
Cast Top for 1B/W, Draw trigger, Drain trigger. Hold priority, draw off of Top B.

Essentially, you're paying 2 mana to drain for 1, which vs a control deck is not a horrible thing, at all. It gives us a legitimate inevitability.

I won't say that its applications vs Control are the REASON to board it, as it is obviously better vs combo decks of various stripes, but the fact that it has applications vs control is a bonus.

Tormod's Crypt is self-explanatory.

Explosives is an extra sweeper, specifically for Empty the Warrens tokens, Combo Elves, and RIP Miracles. As with most of the cards in the board, though, it does have applications elsewhere.

Astute readers will notice that Leyline of the Void is not in this 75 anymore. There is a reason for this: there is only room for Leyline cards as a 2-of in the sideboard. Sanctity is better on t0, but playable and useful later. Void, however, is not. With Void, you either hit it on t0, or it's useless (because they will have already gotten a lot of crap into the graveyard by the time you hit it, and it doesn't RIP-style exile when it comes into play). Leyline IS very good right now, but I'm unwilling to run 4, and I believe that you need to run 4 copies of Void for it to be actually useful. Also, blue cards help when you're jamming Void, because blue can then protect the Leyline (more on this later).

You'll also notice that the Cranial twins are gone. This pains me a lot to cut them, but I think that for the current meta, it's the correct call. When blue control reasserts its grip on the metagame, as is inevitable, the Cranials and Carpets will likely come back. For now, though, the Cranials are too slow and too weak to opposing Leyline of the Voids. They're solid vs RIP Miracles (naming RIP if there isn't one in play, or Helm if there is), but I'm oddly not as scared of that matchup as I probably should be.

So, the final sideboard:

1x Humility
1x Nether Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Blind Obedience
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives

ScapeWish

Scapewish is undergoing some renovations, so I'll copypasta the full list rather than just enumerate changes:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
1 Viridian Emissary
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Ruination

Maindeck: -2 Olivia, -1 Blitz Hellion; +1 Avenger of Zendikar, +2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Sideboard: -1 Sowing Salt, -1 Tsunami, -1 Red Elemental Blast; +1 Ruination, +2 Pithing Needle

Olivia was good when she was good, but she wasn't good enough often enough, and she lost to Karakas. Hellion, as mentioned, was getting cut regardless. He was cute, but he wasn't good enough.

Avenger provides a solid lategame bomb, while also allowing for a backup Scapeshift kill, should Valakut be disabled somehow. Like, if you're under a Blood Moon, let's say...you can still Scapeshift, make a bunch of like 7/8 plants, and just crash in. I've felt for a while now that Scapewish needs -one-, and exactly one, more bomb card. There've been plenty of times where I'm just sitting there with a pile of 8 or 9 lands in play, and nothing to do with them. Avenger is my latest attempt at fixing that problem (Olivia was the previous one). We'll see if he succeeds where she failed.

The Tribe-Elder/Emissary slots are a nod to the big sideboard change, while providing additional early game ramp and fixing. More 2-drop ramp dudes represent a large increase to the consistency of the mana base, which is necessary to keep everything in check, while the Tribe-Elders also provide a fog for a Goyf or some other large attacker. The 1-of Emissary is primarily for Green Sun purposes, so that you can Zenith up a 2-drop ramp dude that you can use to flashback Therapy. I always feel derpy when not getting an Explorer in this situation, but I acknowledge that there are enough situations where you want to control your Explorers going off to where having an Emissary isn't a bad idea.

The major sideboard change, as mentioned, is the Ruination. Ruination combines the best aspects of Tsunami and Sowing Salt into one card. It CAN hurt you as well, however, which is why I placed an extra emphasis on basic-fetching guys. Just be careful with your land count and make sure that you aren't shutting yourself off of Scapeshift -- or that if you are, the Ruination will be truly....ruining #puns4life.

The fusion of Sowing Salt and Tsunami opened up a sideboard slot, and while I was originally going to use it for Disturbed Burial, as a Wishable recursion engine, I decided that Pithing Needle is vastly too good in the current metagame. The only time that Scapewish struggles with Jund is when they land a fast Liliana of the Veil, and Needle will help with that problem. Sure, they can Decay it -- but then they aren't saving that Decay for a Huntmaster, which will end up doing more damage to their gameplan than a Needle will any day. Needle also provides a help vs 12-post, Sneak Attack, Spy (naming Undercity Informer....or Azami if you think you're a badass. I wouldn't recommend it, though), and a range of various other annoyances.

At this point I'm examining how often I actually wish for Reanimate to steal -their- guys, vs how often I would be able to use a Wishable recursion engine (Disturbed Burial). Jury's out currently -- Burial is better vs grindy matchups whereas Reanimate is better vs unfair decks (they Dredge Griselbrand, or Careful Study a fatty, or you Therapy Show and Tell naming Griselbrand, or whatever). Reanimate also lets you play Solar Flare vs Liliana decks -- you discard something big, then BW->Renimate it. I'll probably end up sticking with Reanimate, since Burial is better vs decks that we're already good against. But it's worth consideration.

Deadeye

I did some heavy mental lifting with the Deadeye deck while I was at Jupiter. I looked around the room, and thought to myself what I would like for this deck to do. I was spot-on correct with the metagame, as I previously stated, and I was like...."okay, if I had been able to know that I was 100% right about the meta, what would this deck have looked like."

I'll reiterate the original intent:

Rector is strong vs aggro/combo.
Scapewish is strong vs aggro/control.
Deadeye SHOULD be strong vs control/combo.

Obviously Rector isn't just dead to control (though the games tend to take 8 years), and nor is Scapewish dead to combo (it's winnable, if miserable). Those are just their specialties.

Here's what I came up with. As you can see, I ended up de-cute-ing it a lot.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Master Biomancer
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Force of Will

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
2 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dinrova Horror
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Jace Beleren

So. Here's what's NOT here:

Brainstorm. I'm angry about this, but there's no room. If I could have more room, either Brainstorm or Ancestral Visions would go in. As it is, we'll have to be content with having every card in the deck being at least a 2-for-1. Literally.

Palinchron. I thought about this long and hard. I DO think that if the meta shifted, Sarah-Palin-chron would be a fine choice as a sideboard option, for slower/removal light opponents. However, by the time you reach lategame, you should have sufficient resources that you can go big ENOUGH, without having to go infinite. Smart Deadeye usage should just be good enough.

Jace, TMS. As I said before, I would rather have more dudes that do things. If I want to play a Jace deck, I'll either play a Jace Fit, or I'll play BUGStill. Personally, I don't think that Jace is well-positioned in the metagame right now. I'm fully aware that I'm slaughtering sacred cows all over the place, and I frankly don't give a damn. I refuse to be blinded by the notion that Brainstorm and Jace are the best cards in the game. In traditional Magic, yes, I'll grant you. But Nic Fit operates by changing the rules of the game. Over time I've gone from being angry about the EDH comparison to actively embracing it. Nic Fit wins games by playing powerful cards over efficient ones. It looks at your opponent's Tarmogoyf, and says here's a Sun Titan. It actively changes the base metric by which you judge a card to be good or bad. Very, very few EDH decks play Jace or Brainstorm, because they simply aren't powerful enough effects. You can't build Esperblade-the-EDH-deck very effectively, or RUG Delver, for example. Goyf is a horrible EDH card. It is likewise a bad Nic Fit card.

Again, just to stress, I'm far from saying that Brainstorm and Jace are bad cards.....even for Nic Fit. What I am saying, is that I will consider them before putting them in, and not just auto-DERPBLUE, THEREFORE BRAINSTORM/JACE.

And I think that if I had the space to try to squeeze in Brainstorm, I actually would have opted for Visions instead. I'd rather Draw 3 than pretend to draw 3.

What IS here:

Force of Will x2 maindeck. Force actually plays a lot better with Nic Fit than one might assume. I was watching an Esperblade player at one point as he laughed about hardcasting Force in his ludicrously lategame board state, and I was thinking to myself....you know, Force is better than we think is. It protects you early game against the stupid shit, but then mid-late game (which of course comes faster for Nic Fit), it's still a fine option to just hardcast it. Hell, if we really wanted to, you could go Explorer + Tower pass, then on their turn, sac Explorer to Tower, get your lands, then hardcast Force. On turn 2. As a 2-of maindeck, I think that it gives a respectable chance at hitting one (via mulls+Top, obviously) game one against combo, but it's not like you're drowning in them unless you need to be. The Forces here were vying with the V-Cliques for inclusion, and I'm still not sure that Force should get the nod or not, but I THINK that it's correct. I'd love to have a pair of Cliques, but, space is again a problem.

Spellstutters. As mentioned earlier, these guys are awesome. They play well with Explorer/Therapy because you'll always have Spellstutter mana up after setting off an Explorer, and you can sculpt your opponent's hand with Therapy into them wanting to play a 1-drop (ie, leave them Top, then counter it anyway). They are also highly effective against combo of all non-Show and Tell varieties, as well as Miracles (can't Pierce that, brah). Furthermore, they play well with our bombs: they flicker nicely with Deadeye, and become 3/3 fliers with Biomancer, while protecting both from Swords to Plowshares.

Speaking of Master Biomancer, I'm rapidly becoming convinced that this guy is the Huntmaster for the blue version. The problem with a Deadeye deck is that all of your dudes are small, because Enters-battlefield-trigger-guys are traditionally physically underwhelming to balance for their trigger. Biomancer lets your guys hit a respectable size. Spellstutters and Vensers also both have flash, so it's easy to see a world where your opponent swings, you soak it, then flash in a couple of guys EoT and just kill them. The presence of an active Biomancer also makes Green Sun a legitimate bomb, because at WORST, it's going to get you to a 3/3 Explorer. Also note that Biomancer is a 2/4, which means he dodges Lightning Bolt, and he's a 4-drop, so he gets around Abrupt Decay. Swords is the only effective commonly-played removal that gets rid of him. Zegana also plays very, very nicely with Biomancer, as she gets 2 counters from Biomancer AND counters for whatever the biggest thing is. With just a Biomancer out, she draws 5.

Primeval is a nod to the lack of Sarah Palin. Deadeye is a mana-hungry little fucker, and having some kind of big ramp is probably useful. Titan into 2 Towers also enables a legitimate recursion engine, which can protect Deadeye and Biomancer in the lack of a Spellstutter or active flicker mana. Primeval does make me with that Gaea's Cradle tapped for blue, but I guess I'll settle for getting two blue-producing lands a turn.

As for the sideboard, we return to Leyline of the Void. This deck can actively protect Leyline, which makes it a much better choice here. It also has the room for, and a desire for, the full 4 copies.

It's no secret that I'm high on Blue Blast right now. It deals with Sneak Attack, Burning Wish, burn-as-a-deck, Red Blasts, Blood Moon and a bunch of corner cases.

Mindbreak is extra Force of Wills, but it also serves as an answer to 12-post when they try to hardcast space monsters. In fair matchups, it will usually replace the maindeck Force of Wills (if you want countermagic in the matchup). Even in slower combo matchups, like Sneak and Show, it's a very castable extra counterspell that might occasionally have upside.

Sower is extra Show and Tell hate, but is also strong just as a sideboard card, to take a Delver or a Goyf.

Dinrova...you got me, and I'm angry about it. He's a castable nuisance that can solve both a creature AND an Omniscience off of Show-and-Tell, and he's Empathable, so you can just stick him in your hand and dare them to Show you their goods. I can imagine him being a decent extra bomb in control mirrors, as well.

Jace Beleren is my sole legitimate nod to control mirrors. He can come down on t2 after Explorer/Therapy, and starts drawing you cards while making your opponent mad as they stare at their useless $100 bill in hand. I've been liking Beleren a lot lately, including BUGStill and vintage Tezzerator, as a way to get a leg up on the Jace mirror. Obviously those decks have their own Mindsculptors as well, but a pair of sideboarded Belerens has been doing good work for me elsewhere, and I think it's worthy of being tested here. If the Belerens fail, the Cliques are probably the go-to slot here, though, I still really wish I could fit the pair of Cliques maindeck =(

Final note: Force blue card count maindeck: 15 (with 2 Forces). Post-sideboard count at least 19, with some additionals depending on the type of combo (not counting Blue Blast, Beleren, Dinrova, or Sower....which totals 7 more blue cards all combined).

So yeah. I'm not sure at this point whether I'm going to play the Deadeye version at Mythic, or 12post (the guy who usually borrows my 12post can't go, which means I actually would get to use it for once if I wanted to). We'll see as we get closer.

Also, a question: do you guys think that Spellstutter, Biomancer, and Venser are sufficient wizards for Riptide Lab? I'm thinking that they aren't....also, Riptide would be a 3rd colorless land. I was considering it originally, and it got cut when I removed the Cliques. Not sure at what point it becomes good enough.

[TheArchitect]

@Scapeshift Changes:
- Ruination I like. But 12post is still going to shuffle their GY eventually and just glacial chasm us again. But it does give us a narrow window to instakill them.

- After almost cutting reanimate and then using 3 times in 4 rounds, I changed my mind once again. It can stay, like I have said before though. All it is a way to turn BW into a dead huntmaster. The discarding prime titan off a lily, or stealing dredges griselbrand only happen like 1 in 100 games and aren't justification to play it.

- Avenger is obviously good in this deck, not sure if its needed though. Usually huntmasters, thrags and primetime are bomby enough. Ill try it though and see if it improves any matchups.

- More mana dorks. Yes! I have 2 Abrupt Decays in that slot and really like them there, but mana dorks might be able to replace them with the pithing needles in the SB. Decay usually decays hit KotR>wastelock, lily, equipment, and T2 delver flips.

- Pithing needle might be better than decay though though, it can be used proactively (with decay lily still 2 for 1s every time for example), lets us run more mana dorks, and stops wasteland. I will miss not being able to disrupt tempo decks when they get the nut hands that are like Island, delver, brainstorm, waste, daze, fow, stifle/thoughtseize, but hopefully the mana dorks will help with that. Needle can also help against, jace+top decks, belcher and even dredge (name dread return). Most decks SHOULD side out abrupt decay against us game 2, but a lot of people wont.

- 3rd Bayou why not run a fetch land? Its going to be better than a 3rd bayou 99% of the time.

- 3 Slaughter Games, I dont think this is needed. At least in the mythic/jupiter meta where we need to interact turn 0-1 against combo decks. 4 BW + 1 SB slaughter games I think should be more than enough.

- Pyroclasm/virtue's ruine/persish/damnation: Why virtue's ruin over perish or damnation? I think going from 2 to 3 board wipes is right, but I think Id rather do Pyro+perish. I use damnation/perish a lot to wipe a board of goyf+drs+kotr for 5 mana. Virtues ruin I think I would use a lot less.

What I would use:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mindbreak trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Perish
1 Ruination

[Arianrhod]

@Scapeshift Changes:
- Ruination I like. But 12post is still going to shuffle their GY eventually and just glacial chasm us again. But it does give us a narrow window to instakill them.

- After almost cutting reanimate and then using 3 times in 4 rounds, I changed my mind once again. It can stay, like I have said before though. All it is a way to turn BW into a dead huntmaster. The discarding prime titan off a lily, or stealing dredges griselbrand only happen like 1 in 100 games and aren't justification to play it.

- Avenger is obviously good in this deck, not sure if its needed though. Usually huntmasters, thrags and primetime are bomby enough. Ill try it though and see if it improves any matchups.

- More mana dorks. Yes! I have 2 Abrupt Decays in that slot and really like them there, but mana dorks might be able to replace them with the pithing needles in the SB. Decay usually decays hit KotR>wastelock, lily, equipment, and T2 delver flips.

- Pithing needle might be better than decay though though, it can be used proactively (with decay lily still 2 for 1s every time for example), lets us run more mana dorks, and stops wasteland. I will miss not being able to disrupt tempo decks when they get the nut hands that are like Island, delver, brainstorm, waste, daze, fow, stifle/thoughtseize, but hopefully the mana dorks will help with that. Needle can also help against, jace+top decks, belcher and even dredge (name dread return). Most decks SHOULD side out abrupt decay against us game 2, but a lot of people wont.

- 3rd Bayou why not run a fetch land? Its going to be better than a 3rd bayou 99% of the time.

- 3 Slaughter Games, I dont think this is needed. At least in the mythic/jupiter meta where we need to interact turn 0-1 against combo decks. 4 BW + 1 SB slaughter games I think should be more than enough.

- Pyroclasm/virtue's ruine/persish/damnation: Why virtue's ruin over perish or damnation? I think going from 2 to 3 board wipes is right, but I think Id rather do Pyro+perish. I use damnation/perish a lot to wipe a board of goyf+drs+kotr for 5 mana. Virtues ruin I think I would use a lot less.


A well-timed Ruination should hurt 12post enough that it'll be a long while before they can recover enough. It'll probably leave them with like 1 Island in play, if they're lucky. To shuffle their gy in, they'd have to build up to 8 cards in hand and then discard a space monster -- and THEN they could get Bog back. That's gonna take a while. Probably at least 4-5 turns, by the time we land Ruination.

Corner-cases on Reanimate seem to happen to me a good bit. But, fair point is fair. Reanimate has been for me Innocent Blood for Devin -- whenever I cut it, I regret it. So it probably stays.

You can't name Dread Return with Needle, as flashback isn't an activated ability, it's a cost. Belcher is a good one, though -- we can deal with Goblins. It's the Belcher itself that's scary.

I don't like Fetches in Scapewish. Any marginal help that they provide is offset for me by having a lower land count, which hurts Scapeshifting. I used to run with 2 Bayous, actually, and sometimes it ended up causing problems. Having a 3rd Bayou is good for Wood Elves, primarily -- it also increases your chances of having a G/B land in your opening hand, although a fetch would accomplish the same thing. I certainly wouldn't replace it with any NON-Fetch land.

Slaughter Games...eh. Mindbreak is reaching the point of saturation to where it isn't as good anymore. Increasing the mana dorks increases the chances of casting Slaughter Games in a timely manner. The Games are definitely weak slots, but I'm not sure what I want to replace them with. Extirpate is a legitimate consideration.

It's a matter of overlaps. Virtue's Ruin basically wraths Maverick and Death and Taxes (which perish does nothing to). Perish hits Elves (but Pyroclasm is better), and....Tarmogoyfs. Which, if they have Goyfs, you're basically chumping/waiting for a BW->Pulse or a Deed, or just killing them. KotR and Teeg are both the biggest things we want to be sweeping away with the slot, and both get hit with either Perish or Ruin. I think that Virtue's Ruin is marginally more useful since it also takes out pests like Mother of Runes, Thalia, Stoneforge, Elspeth tokens, and Meddling Mage. But, it's definitely very close, and if you'd rather have Perish, I'd certainly understand.

[Siiig]

Corner-cases on Reanimate seem to happen to me a good bit. But, fair point is fair. Reanimate has been for me Innocent Blood for Devin -- whenever I cut it, I regret it. So it probably stays.


I cut reanimate from my list the morning of Jupiter (for 2 mind break traps, or something like that), and as it goes, had a chance where I could have BW + Reanimate'ed a SnT's Grizzlebrand (I don't remember how it got in there, but it happened).

That being said, I think for the time being and with the meta how it is at Jupiter and locally, I'll be shelving (<-SP?) scapeshift for a bit. I have Sam Black's Zombies! Almost ready to go, and I'm going to pursue Jund Fit in the mean time (basically the equiv of Rector to Junk Fit). It'll be nice to run fetch lands with top, and Rubble Hulk has been calling my name since he was spoiled.

[Arianrhod]

I cut reanimate from my list the morning of Jupiter (for 2 mind break traps, or something like that), and as it goes, had a chance where I could have BW + Reanimate'ed a SnT's Grizzlebrand (I don't remember how it got in there, but it happened).

That being said, I think for the time being and with the meta how it is at Jupiter and locally, I'll be shelving (<-SP?) scapeshift for a bit. I have Sam Black's Zombies! Almost ready to go, and I'm going to pursue Jund Fit in the mean time (basically the equiv of Rector to Junk Fit). It'll be nice to run fetch lands with top, and Rubble Hulk has been calling my name since he was spoiled.

Zombies seems like a terrible choice for that metagame. Agreed that Scapewish should be shelved overall, if you have the ability to do so...at least for a month or two until things settle down a bit. PFire seems better than straight Jund IMO, if you have the ability to rock that. If you don't have, I have 3 Groves and the PFires I can usually loan out -- not sure what other differences there would be. Get brewin' and we'll have a look.

[Star|Scream]

Arianrhod did you play the blue nic fit this weekend?

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod did you play the blue nic fit this weekend?

I wasn't happy with the list I had built at that point, and I was also short a few of the more random cards. I'm still not sure I have a Dinrova Horror anywhere, but I should be able to find one in time for this weekend. Worst case I'm sure I can pick one up for like a quarter at the shop. I played Aggro Loam instead -- did manage to go Bayou Diamond Hymn into a 2nd Hymn against Belcher, which was good times. Also managed to get mana screwed in my 27-land deck several times, and I bricked like 80% of my Countryside Crusher triggers, which sucked dick. Still went 3-3, though, and it was my first time ever playing the deck. I think it was a good choice for the meta...but my inexperience and bad luck definitely hurt me. Pretty sure I built my sideboard poorly, too -- had like 3 slots that I think were awful.

But anyway.

No, I didn't =)

[MrIggins]

I really like the updates to both decks, the Deadeye list is very exciting but I'm still not sold on Biomancer. I'll have another look at both lists and try both and get back before I say more but he just doesn't look like he does enough. I look forward to being proved wrong because I like him a lot.

The Avenger of Zendikar I'm also pretty unsure of, I definitely get why he's there if you felt the need for another threat but I wonder whether he's the right man (Plant?) for the job. What makes him better than Hornet Queen (blocking Emrakuls and Demons all day) or other cheaper options like Thrun, Deranged Hermit, Rampaging Baloths, Wolfir Silverheart?

[Tom4ik]

Hey All,

I'm just getting back into Magic. I started back in Tempest and left around mirrodin so I'm still trying to learn all the new decks/cards. I ended up buying a bunch of cards that made a deck similar to what I used to play (Rec-Sur). Anyway, I Top 4ed at my first tourney with it on Saturday and a guy there pointed me to this deck/site. I am looking to make some changes and get back into it. I kind of just threw the deck together but it fared better than I expected. Here is the list I used:

Creatures:
4 veteran explorer
1 sylvan ranger
1 wall of blossoms
2 deathrite shaman
2 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
3 eternal witness
2 vampire hexmage

Spells:
4 abrubt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
2 pernicious deed
4 cabal therapy
2 duress
1 diabolic intent
4 green sun zenith
1 garruk primal hunter
3 sensei diving top
1 recurring nightmare

Land:
4 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 wooded foothills
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath stronghold
1 dark depths
5 forest
3 swamp

Sideboard:
3 tsunami
3 memoricide
2 nihil spellbomb
2 surgical extraction
2 extirpate
3 innocent blood

I lost my first match to goblins. game 2 he had a goblin that made his unblockable by tokens and I had marit lage and couldnt stop enough damage.

Won against ANT 2-1
Won againt Pox 2-1
Won 2-1 against a deck that puts its library into graveyard and then wins by not being able to draw a card.
Beat the goblins deck i had previously to make it to Top-4 and lost to some blue, green, black deck that pretty much smashed me.

The deck seemed fun to play, and after taking a look at some decklists here I would like to continue with this style.

Tom

[vilnico]

@Tom: Welcome here, in this part of the multiverse where we do not considered ourselves as a Pariah :D

@Arian: Thx for you big post. I believe you really do a great job with your regular updates/explanation on your lists !!
I like the de-cuted Dead-eye version. And the Master Biomancer thing sounds really nice.

Just a question the Rector sideboard. Are you happy with only 2 Leylines ?
I am currently tweaking mine and realize that Trap/LL/Void are quite too redundant. With LL and Trap I am tempted to let the Void go away, and to reduce to the number of Traps to maximize LL in starting hands.
I am also surprised to not find Gaddock Teeg. Did you consider it to be too expected to be worth ?

My SB is at the moment:


1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nether Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction


In its current state, I could side-in almost all my SB against Storm. Actually I would board 13 cards, as I would certainly find 13 ugly cards to side-out.
But this feels like not right at all. Like finding some space for Needles or O'ring would be great.

[Arianrhod]

@Tom: Welcome here, in this part of the multiverse where we do not considered ourselves as a Pariah :D

@Arian: Thx for you big post. I believe you really do a great job with your regular updates/explanation on your lists !!
I like the de-cuted Dead-eye version. And the Master Biomancer thing sounds really nice.

Just a question the Rector sideboard. Are you happy with only 2 Leylines ?
I am currently tweaking mine and realize that Trap/LL/Void are quite too redundant. With LL and Trap I am tempted to let the Void go away, and to reduce to the number of Traps to maximize LL in starting hands.
I am also surprised to not find Gaddock Teeg. Did you consider it to be too expected to be worth ?

My SB is at the moment:


In its current state, I could side-in almost all my SB against Storm. Actually I would board 13 cards, as I would certainly find 13 ugly cards to side-out.
But this feels like not right at all. Like finding some space for Needles or O'ring would be great.

So.....did you move Sigarda main? Because she should definitely be in your board if she's not main.

2 Leyline of Sanctity has always felt like the right number for me. This is because oftentimes, it is just as useful to Rector for or just hardcast as it is to open on t0. Consider the matchups that we board it in vs:

Jund: Opening t0 shuts off Thoughtseize and Hymn, which is +++. However, the primary reason we want it in the matchup is for the dual purpose of shutting off their Punishing Fires and their Lilianas. Leyline turns Liliana into a +1-only card, and stops her from making us sacrifice creatures or popping her ultimate. PFire is one of the very few ways Jund has to win through a Moat, which is our plan A against Jund (Moat into Sigarda = win). Opening Leyline to kill Thoughtseize/Hymn is just a bonus.

Storm/Belcher: Again, opening hand it's a bonus, because it kills their discard and forces them to G.Probe themselves, which means they don't have information on whether we have a Trap or not. However, it's still fine to have as a Rector target. If you're sneaky / lucky, you can bait them to Belch you or Tendrils you, and in response crack Rector for Leyline. Obviously all of this precludes you having the time to get a Rector onboard...if they just t0 you, then you're screwed, but that's why you have 5 t0 cards + 5 t1 cards (Chalice and 4 Therapies. I count ET->Chalice as a t2 option, which is not preferred, but is possible when they mulligan to 5).

There's some other fringe matchups like Pox where the Leylines come in, but again, it should be fine as a 2-of. Now, for your Omni version, the 3rd Leyline might be slightly more important than the 3rd Trap, because you suffer to discard a bit more. That's a decision you need to make. But for myself, I haven't had an issue with a 2-of Leyline not coming up enough.

Teeg is closer to being playable than he was, now that I've taken the Cranial twins out. However, if you consider Rector's sideboard:

1x Humility
1x Nether Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Chalice of the Void
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Blind Obedience
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives

The following cards are uncastable through Teeg:

1x Humility
1x Nether Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives

That's moderately horrifying. Leyline, Nether Void, and Humility can all be Rector'd into play (Humility can be Shown), but if you draw them, you're screwed. Not being able to Chalice@0 or Mindbreak Trap against something like TES is a serious problem. I mean I guess that they probably have to bounce/kill Teeg at some point while going off, which makes Mindbreak at least active again....but ehh. I don't like shutting off my sideboard.

Looking at your sideboard, I would 100% replace the Nihil Spellbomb and Pernicious Deed with Enlightened Tutors. If you think about it, Enlightened Tutor is an extra copy of Pernicious Deed already, and the same with Tormod's Crypt. By putting in a pair of Tutors, you increase your Pernicious Deed and Crypt count by 2, which gives you 3 Crypts and (assuming 3 Deeds main), 8 Deeds (counting Rector). A pair of ET would also let you cut one Chains.

Actually, Vilnico, you should probably repost your full list here soon, so that we can get you all tuned up for the GP. I'm assuming you're going to Strasborg (probably spelled that wrong)?

@Tom4ik

Welcome! You came to the right place -- I definitely consider this deck to be the descendent of Rec-Sur. As you can see from the thread, there's a wide variety of different versions here, so once you figure out what direction you want to go in with the archetype, we'll be ready to give you any advice / answer any questions you need =)

[blindspotxxx]

Just got back from play GB Nic Fit in a 4-3 performance at a 60-70 something player tourney. Lost against Zombardment (1-2), U/R Delver (1-2), Sneak Show (0-2). Won against UW RiP Helm (2-0), Zombardment (2-0), Merfolk (2-0) and Reanimator (2-1). The losses to Zombardment and U/R Delver were a bit disappointing. They were mostly due to really bad draws (mull to 5 in 4 of the games in those 2 losses). In the 2 of the 3 games against U/R Delver, I had to keep a hand with 1 land and just SDT as I was already 2 cards down. The Reanimator game was just plain epic! Might post a tournament report if I feel like it tomorrow. :laugh:

I'm really contemplating on splashing blue. I was originally planning to go white but I think white only improves most of our already good match ups. Anyway, will be staying straight up GB rock until I can make up my mind on what color to splash. Will need time to acquire the cards though. :eek:

The deck I played:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Innocent Blood
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge

You fought 2 Zombardment decks? What? Was the other the Lotleth Troll variant?

[vilnico]

@Arian: No I did not have Sigarda in my main
Actually the big thing about the Jund MU is more or less about Discards during the 3 first turns. If I can protect myself from that, I do not really need a Sigarda, soon a Veteran or a Rector shows up and virtually makes a Moat until a get them sacrificed to get closer to the win.
So if Jund goes T1 DRS, I can't be happier. On the other hand, Thoughtseize gives them a huge advantage.
I played a Jund on sunday, I lost game 1 on Mull 5, I win game 2 on slow start from him (DRS), and game3 Leyline just raped the game.

And as you ask for it, here is my updated list



MAIN DECK 61
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Swamp
1 Plains
5 Forest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Starved Rusalka

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

1 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

3 Garruk Relentless

1 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
1 Omniscience
1 Take Possession

SIDEBOARD 15

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nether Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction

So MD is not locked yet. I would say I have 2 floating slots at the moment, aka Take Possession and Scroll Rack. They used to be Eladamri's Call, which is the tutor I hate to play the most in this list.
Take Possession just entered the build as a test, which actually deals with everything, Jace, Emrakul, spoilers...
And as that made me 3 dead draws, I figured that having back the Scroll Rack was nice. But those 2 could move out again.
The list has a nice B plan with Pattern of Rebirth, in case where Omniscience is in hand. I have been very happy so far with earlier version that did not run Scroll Rack.
I could play MD the 4th Decay and the 3rd Deed to free 2 sideboards slots, but I am not really fan of that.

About Leylines, as you mentionned I am more keen on having it Turn0, as I am sensitive to discard. And I guess a Turn 0 Leyline is as good as a Trap.
About the fact that Leyline can get boarded through Rector, I think you point the very thing that makes Nether Void Obsolete. I mean, if you want to have a killer Enchant to stop Storm, Leyline and Void do exactly the same job. That is why I am seriously thinking about getting the Void of for another LL.
And I guess you're right about Gaddock, maybe I should go for a slow Thalia or a Canonist better.
Been thinking also about the cute Dumbo-stodon, nice Rebirth target, nice drop on S&T, and "playable" ^^...
Nice SB would be Needle and O'Ring.
About E.Tutor, I don't really know. I already play 3 Intent which is the best tutor this list want to have. Maybe a 4th in SB ? But I get your point on the 4th grave hate, will be thinking on that.

If any of you have any thoughts, I am happy to hear about it ! Help me show the Multiverse at GP StrasboUrg that Nic Fit is The-Deck-To-Play :D

[Arianrhod]

@Arian: No I did not have Sigarda in my main
Actually the big thing about the Jund MU is more or less about Discards during the 3 first turns. If I can protect myself from that, I do not really need a Sigarda, soon a Veteran or a Rector shows up and virtually makes a Moat until a get them sacrificed to get closer to the win.
So if Jund goes T1 DRS, I can't be happier. On the other hand, Thoughtseize gives them a huge advantage.
I played a Jund on sunday, I lost game 1 on Mull 5, I win game 2 on slow start from him (DRS), and game3 Leyline just raped the game.

And as you ask for it, here is my updated list



So MD is not locked yet. I would say I have 2 floating slots at the moment, aka Take Possession and Scroll Rack. They used to be Eladamri's Call, which is the tutor I hate to play the most in this list.
Take Possession just entered the build as a test, which actually deals with everything, Jace, Emrakul, spoilers...
And as that made me 3 dead draws, I figured that having back the Scroll Rack was nice. But those 2 could move out again.
The list has a nice B plan with Pattern of Rebirth, in case where Omniscience is in hand. I have been very happy so far with earlier version that did not run Scroll Rack.
I could play MD the 4th Decay and the 3rd Deed to free 2 sideboards slots, but I am not really fan of that.

About Leylines, as you mentionned I am more keen on having it Turn0, as I am sensitive to discard. And I guess a Turn 0 Leyline is as good as a Trap.
About the fact that Leyline can get boarded through Rector, I think you point the very thing that makes Nether Void Obsolete. I mean, if you want to have a killer Enchant to stop Storm, Leyline and Void do exactly the same job. That is why I am seriously thinking about getting the Void of for another LL.
And I guess you're right about Gaddock, maybe I should go for a slow Thalia or a Canonist better.
Been thinking also about the cute Dumbo-stodon, nice Rebirth target, nice drop on S&T, and "playable" ^^...
Nice SB would be Needle and O'Ring.
About E.Tutor, I don't really know. I already play 3 Intent which is the best tutor this list want to have. Maybe a 4th in SB ? But I get your point on the 4th grave hate, will be thinking on that.

If any of you have any thoughts, I am happy to hear about it ! Help me show the Multiverse at GP StrasboUrg that Nic Fit is The-Deck-To-Play :D

Ahhhh, but you're missing something. Leyline is bounceable and destroyable. Nether Void, essentially, is not. TES plays so few mana sources that an active Nether Void is basically immortal, and it's functionally impossible for them to go off through it. Consider Leyline. Leyline stops Tendrils, but not Empty the Warrens (which we're more okay with because of Deed / Pulse). Chain of Vapor is a common sideboard card, and if they go Ad Naus -> cards, they're probably going to hit a Chain, which means they just Tendrils you out.

Think of it a different way.

You want Leyline on t0 ideally, but it's a fine draw. However, you RARELY Rector for it. It just isn't good enough as a Rector target, because it doesn't shut down enough. I mean sure, there's corner cases where you sac Rector to Tower to get Leyline to blank their Tendrils, or stop their Belcher, or make their Liliana ult fizzle, or whatever. But, like saccing Rector to Fetters an Emrakul, it's a corner case. It's not going to happen often.

Nether Void is what you WANT to Rector for, because it's absolutely devastating. Leyline can situationally save your ass once they're comboing off, but Nether Void stops them from even trying. Void is 100% still necessary, even if you're on the triple Leyline plan.

Now, for the rest of the list...

-) Your land count seems low -- 21 including Arbor =/

-) Arbor...? How's he been? Not sure if there's some kind of secret voodoo art to Arbor in this list where he's better or something. Usually if you want to use Zenith to ramp, getting Explorer is just better.

-) I love Scroll Rack, but I hate Take Possession. If you want enchantment removal to Rector for, go for Faith's Fetters. TP is funnier, but not being castable is a serious problem. Also, the +4 life on Fetters has saved my ass more times than I really care to admit.

-) Pattern seems really solid as a 1-of.

-) No Tribe-Elders :O -- Tribe-Elder seems like he'd be the nut high for your deck. He plays well with the Pattern plan (Pattern on Tribe Elder, then sac him to get land, triggering Pattern), and he ramps from 2->4. This allows you to t1 Therapy, t2 Tribe-Elder, t3 Rector/FB Therapy into Omni into stupid crap.

-) Garruk Relentless seems patently unnecessary, at least as a 3-of. I'd sooner see Innocent Blood (although I.Blood might replace Decay).

-) For what it's worth, I think that if I were building a version of this deck, I would cut out the Inquisitions and Garruks for more creatures. Like, that would give you six slots...which could get you, say, 3 Tribe-Elders, a Sigarda, a Thragtusk, and a 6-drop threat -- probably not Sun Titan because you don't have much for him to bring back really, and probably not Primeval because you don't have utility lands. Not Yosei because no Nightmare. Not sure what, but I'd want a secondary Empath target.

Note that this is just my opinion, and your mileage will vary. If you like how it runs at the moment, then that's certainly fine -- but I'd definitely want a backup plan or two.

Actually. Why -not- Nightmare? If you have Omni out, Nightmare goes infinite, which means if you have something like a Yosei or a Kokusho, they lose infinite untap steps / get drained for infinite. Eternal Witness gets back every card in your graveyard. Just a thought.

-) Sideboard we already talked about. Depending on your meta, considering the concerns that this list has, dropping Mindbreak Trap completely might be correct. You might want the 4th Leyline of Sanctity, and then you gain a sideboard slot for whatever.

@the European contingent in general, what are you guys thinking that the metagame is going to be like at Strasbourg (hey, I was close the first time :P )? I know there's usually a higher percentage of combo decks over there, but what is the usual means of fighting combo? Is there also also a lot of Miracles, or RUG, or what? Wondering if Carpet of Flowers would be a wise decision.

[sherko7]

You fought 2 Zombardment decks? What? Was the other the Lotleth Troll variant?

Yeah, did I play against you? :D I am not familiar with everyone's MTGSource names lol :laugh:


OT: I know this question might have already been asked a lot, but what is THE best option for straight up GB against SnT decks. I've completely given up on that matchup, I've never won a game. I've tried MD Innocent Blood, boarding out Titans and boarding in Ensnaring Bridges, more discard, etc... Really hard.

I'm still pondering over what color I should splash. I do not have any other dual lands besides Bayou right now, and I could use your opinion. Our meta is quite diverse. Of course, Jund is in the limelight right now, but Stoneblade and SnT come close 2nd. Aggro decks such as Goblins, Burn, U/R Delver are still quite popular too along with U/W Miracles and Stoneblade variants. Basically, which Nic Fit splash deals best with a wide open meta? :smile:

[vilnico]

@Arian: Thanks for comments

I do understand everything you say about Nether Void. I do still wonder in how many corner cases, sac'ing a Rector for target in response to combo Void is really better than LL. Ok it LOCKS instead of giving me Hexproof.
But Nether Void in hand is opening hand *bleeh*.
So they do overlap, with their own advantages and inconvenient I would say.

Land count: I've been happy so far with 21, except for mulligans. I could think about the 22th land, but I have to admit I would prefer a spell there.

Arbor: I do play it, because I play Pattern of Rebirth essentially. This basically means that any Fetch is a holder for PoR and virtually increase my number of creatures. Otherwise there would be no reason to play PoR, there are too few creatures in this build. And believe me, I take quite a few games thanks to that Dryad with PoR.
I sometimes use it for GSZ@0 to ramp T1, but that is very rare.
I sometimes open it in hand, and have to play it T1, which is *over-bleeeeh*
I am happy of it, but it is clear that without Pattern in the list, there is no need for the Dryad.

Scroll Rack: I did already explained myself on that, it is here because of TP. Would I play Faith's Fetter instead of TP, Scroll Rack would go out definitely. I want to test TP not because it is fun/cute/cool/dangerous, but because it can give you games where Fetter can not. This is especially on the situation when you have Rector on board, and Emrakul Annihilating you. Fetters only stops Emrakul, where TP steals it, and punishes the S&T player immediately.
The difference of raw power between those two is clearly balanced by the fact that TP in uncastable. But hey, I already play Omniscience ^___^
So why not a second unplayable enchant ? But that's just testing so far, reason might make turn back on Fetters.
On corner cases, TP steals a Jace (and this list hates Jace as much as any GBw builds)
Scroll Rack on its own is only useful if you have Omni to reshuffle, and to some extent if you have LL post board. But apart from that it is ALWAYS a bad Top. You never have enough card in hand to make it a valuable recycler.

PoR: just :D

Sakura: I never had the need for it. I mean, the deck is mid-range combo. I don't need to get on Rector turn3, or being faster. The build is at the moment fast enough to take on any mid-range MUs, and I can't compete with Combo in terms of speed that is a fact.
So gaining 1 turn is cute, but not enough for me to play it. About Pattern it is a nice holder for it, as would be Tinder Wall, Wild Cantor and stuffs. But Pattern is only a B plan, I don't feel it necessary to strengthen it.
Though it is clearly an option.

Garruk: I did not expect it in the beginning, but he is a gameplan on its own. I can't count the number of games when its presence on board puts me back in the game just because of tokens.
The thing is that it is highly synergic with the need to kill my Explorers or Rectors, but also, it kills DRS that I can't ignore. Those are 3 good reasons to play Garruk.
Well ok nobody knows that DRS stops Rector from going combo... but still I need to be able to kill it. I think it would be absolute non-sense to ignore DRS, all the more on a GP.
Innocent Blood is not good in killing DRS. Though I could play Disfigure instead of Blood. It kills DRS, Explorer and Rector (well if the opponent agrees, but same for Blood).
And DRS is actually the reason why I play Decay.

Actually in a meta without DRS, I would play maybe only 2 Garruks, and maybe no Decay at all.
But Ravnica came back to change the story.

Nightmare: What you describe is to me overkill and a too heavy machine to set up.
2 Enchatments (which means 2 Rector not going for Deed), and 1 killer-creature. You would need at least 2 tutors to assemble this, and I do not see this viable or way too slow if you prefer.
Or as a basic mechanics: Intent sac'ing Rector, fetching for Omni and Nightmare on Intent, then go nuts (if you have a creature to do so, that you still have to find).
But how is this any better than getting Emrakul on Intent, and just Time Walk/Annihilate ?
Anyway Nightmare needs way more valuable creature to make it a win (yosei, kokusho). This would turn the build into some BGw Rector-creature based, playing Omniscience as a nice toy. I've seen few lists doing that and that just looked like *meeeeh*. I mean, BGw has enough mana to play all its spells, and can setup Nightmare into a dreadful weapon, even without a Yosei-loop. Most of the time 2 activation of Nightmare gives you the game. Why make it an overkill weapon ?

IoK is also 3 slots replacing creatures from BGw builds. Playing combo makes it valuable to have some discard here in my opinion (ok it could be Thoughtseize...), when it is not necessary in regular BGw lists.
So builds between this *thing* and BGw Rector look alike, but do not work the same in terms of win-condition.

Just as a reminder, I play this over BGw because BGw is long to play and may lead to draw because it leads to slow situations. The Omni list does not want to go there, it wants to use the raw power of the combo to win in reasonable amount of time, and it happens that this combo it perfectly do-able in Nic Fit.

[Tammit67]

Okay, time for some updates.

Deadeye

Here's what I came up with. As you can see, I ended up de-cute-ing it a lot.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Master Biomancer
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Force of Will

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
2 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Dinrova Horror
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Jace Beleren



I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?

Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.

Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?

[TheArchitect]

I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?

Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.

Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?

BUG delver tempo in particular actually does pretty good against most forms of nic fit, except GBW, and this list is no exception. Other tempo decks (RUG, UR, etc), and other BUG lists (shardless or landstill) are pretty hard to lose to. Id recommend testing it against some other decks besides BUG delver as well to get a good scope of the deck. Although, I dont/wouldnt play the deadeye list so I cant help you too much there.

[Arianrhod]

I proxied up your (61 card) dead eye list you posted for some quick games against BUG tempo. It seems to do what I would want against control/combo just fine, but I wasn't impressed by spellstutter outside of those areas. Delvers were particularly troublesome when landed early and backed with permission. I changed the sprites for baleful strix and it ran better in the delver matchups, despite often pumping goyfs even higher. Have you found tempo variants to be an issue with Deadeye?

Zegana similarly wasn't very impressive for me, rarely being above a 4/4 draw three unless I had biomancer out (master biomancer being a very good reason to run this deck for the record). Venser was decent, but he definitely shines better in matchups other than the ones I was playing.

Overall, the deck ran rather well until I had to try to close the game out. I'd consider recurring nightmare as another potent engine (in addition) over maybe a witness? Thoughts on any of this?

Yeah. Your overall read of the deck seems accurate -- it's specifically designed to fight control/combo, because if there's a high enough aggro presence (I consider tempo to be a form of aggro, personally), you want either Rector or Scapewish instead. Like, in my testing so far, I've found Sprites to be lacking outside of control/combo. If you run into anything even slightly aggressive, they aren't good anymore (looking at you, Jund -- although Delver is a good example too). However, I'm not sure that cutting them for Strix is the correct call, since the Sprites are your second line of defense against combo (after Therapy in the first seed).

At the point at which I feel that we're in a transient metagame, with the aggro/tempo decks making a reappearance, then I would consider having 4x of something in the sideboard, to switch out 1-for-1 with the Sprites. I'm not sure what the best option would be there, but it seems reasonable to be able to trade the Sprites up, as it were, when their unique talents are not required.

How is Zegana a 4/4 Draw 3? Wouldn't she be a 4/4 Draw 4, in that instance? Or am I misunderstanding how she works?

How was Biomancer for you, in more specifics? Obviously you liked him -- but go into more detail.

I've definitely considered Nightmare, and I can agree that it feels like the deck needs an additional way to end the game. I still say that I would kill to have Vendilion Clique in the deck, since you can drop her turn 2 after Therapy/Explorer shenanigans, she's a potent clock and additional disruption -- who also happens to play very nicely with Spellstutter, Deadeye, and Biomancer (flying flash 5/3 anyone?). I've also been missing Frost Titan in testing, since he was the deck's primary "warrior" type card. When the time comes to bring the hurt, Frosty was usually the gentleman in charge.

I'm definitely not convinced that the 6-drop package of Deadeye/Primeval/Zegana is where we want to be. Not sure what we do want, though.

[eq.firemind]

Deranged Hermit looks sexy with Biomancer and blinks.
But then you want Recurring Nightmare even more.
Also, Kozilek's Predator and other eldrazi drones.

[Arianrhod]

Deranged Hermit looks sexy with Biomancer and blinks.
But then you want Recurring Nightmare even more.
Also, Kozilek's Predator and other eldrazi drones.

I've actually considered Hermit a few times for this specific list. It's a bit of a corner case, but if you manage to get Hermit paired with Deadeye, you can flicker the Hermit in response to the Echo trigger and end up not paying anything for it. That makes Hermit's drawback substantially lessened, IMO -- and the list does currently run Two Towers, so worst case you can just sac him, Stronghold him, and replay him. Spitting out 4/4 squirrels with a Biomancer out seems decent.

The issue with Recurring Nightmare in this list IMO is that you don't have a way to find it. You just have to stick it in there and hope to hit it the hard way. You could run Diabolic Intent, but you want the board cluttered with dudes...not sacrificing them. You could also run Long-term Plans, but that becomes a question of space.

[Tammit67]

How is Zegana a 4/4 Draw 3? Wouldn't she be a 4/4 Draw 4, in that instance? Or am I misunderstanding how she works?

How was Biomancer for you, in more specifics? Obviously you liked him -- but go into more detail.

I've definitely considered Nightmare, and I can agree that it feels like the deck needs an additional way to end the game. I still say that I would kill to have Vendilion Clique in the deck, since you can drop her turn 2 after Therapy/Explorer shenanigans, she's a potent clock and additional disruption -- who also happens to play very nicely with Spellstutter, Deadeye, and Biomancer (flying flash 5/3 anyone?). I've also been missing Frost Titan in testing, since he was the deck's primary "warrior" type card. When the time comes to bring the hurt, Frosty was usually the gentleman in charge.

I'm definitely not convinced that the 6-drop package of Deadeye/Primeval/Zegana is where we want to be. Not sure what we do want, though.

Yeah, completely a typo on Zegana draw. Obviously she is really good should you get thragtusk/primeval tiatan/deadeye to stick, but then she feels win more. Landing her on a board of 1/1s or 2/2s is underwhelming. A second thragtusk or a U/B different titan might be preferred (or deranged hermit as suggested)?

Biomancer I have a not-so-secret crush on, but he was able to turn the normally weaker top decks late game of coiling oracle/explorer into more than just value creatures. Being able to double block a goyf to trade either of them for it is rather nice, as is venser being a 4/4. there are certainly hands that don't let you do much with him, as you rely on the top of your deck to find creatures after you play him. I often found myself GSZ a turn later to just get thragtusk or acidic slime. Certainly more can be done to maximize his impact.

Clique would be very strong here, I think, and would certainly boost Zegana's potential by having reasonably sized creatures in the 3-4 drop slot. The list feels very tight though, I wouldn't know what to drop to make room. Even the cards I have mentioned to not entirely be impressed with curve well and have functions outside of the brief run through I gave the list.

I'm not really worried about not being able to find nightmare, just having another bomb will probably put the density of them where I feel more comfortable.

[drfontaine]

3 sensei's divining top

1 eternal witness
1 wolfir silverheart
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glen elendra archmage
3 veteran explorer

3 pernicious deed

4 brainstorm
3 force of will

4 cabal therapy
2 green sun's zenith
3 living wish

2 Jace, the mind sculptor

1 bayou
3 forest
3 island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
1 swamp
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs

SB:
1 deadeye navigator
1 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 veteran explorer
1 vampire hexmage
1 scavenging ooze

1 pernicious deed

3 counterbalance
1 force of will
2 surgical extraction

1 bojuka bog
1 karakas

This is my take on this intresting path of nic fit! So far it's been working out greatly ;) Right now the list obv has its issues vs tempo/aggro. Imo that must be the whole point of developing a new nic fit list, IE making it much stronger in the anti combo department while still maintaining its inherit strength vs tempo/manadenial. And currently it seems that the reduction of greenzun/veteran making it lack consistancy has made it perhaps to weak vs aggro/tempo. Therefore it could still use more tuning however i find it exceptionally hard to modify currently without removing the forces (blue count) which i feel is somehow the point of playing this version of nic fit.

I would really like to test more with the forces since i feel that nic fit's weakest link is its game1 vs unknown deck. Cabal therapy is just so much better g2, and if you somehow manage to wait until you fire off ur first cabals ur in so much better shape vs the unknown decks. Force + spellstrutter partially allows you to wait. With all the bounce (venser/jace) and just general opponent revealing cards (mystic/delvers/ringleader etc) together with Vindilion revealing, cabals is also very much live even in the later stages of the game.

The different take of this deck is that it whats to have enough early game disruption that it dosnt necesessarily have to fire off explorers into the unknown which i feel is also is potentially very strong.

Considering its lategame bombs i feel that deadeye is more than enough, and no matter what you pair it with it should pretty much always seal you the deal. I cannot understand why you would like to include pieces like zegana/palinchron, biomancer, for me all those are just winmore and very slow combo pieces. I mean in what situations do you really want a biomancer? The way i see this deck is that early game you want disruption or ramp, from which u must assume that vs most decks in order to regain the loss of tempo you have to deed. After deed you wanna lay down ur threats or control elements depending on what style you wish to proceed to end the game. Biomancer imo falls into the vacuum category in between IE neither do you wanna play him before deed nor do you wanna play him after deed, since by then ur essentially out of cards, and you need to topdeck a fellow in order to get value from the fellaw. I mean i dont see many scenarios where he can help you stabilize board predeed.

I did however try to play wolfir for the slot just for some testing since hes very much a superfast clock post deed and hes a very nice combat trick with all ur flashing dudes, hes espcially nice since most ur dudes are also flying :). What he also might do although rather unlikely is that he might help you stabilize predeed. Although im not entirely sold on him as of yet. I also felt to try out glen elendra which has been okish, although i feel shes also a superstrong postdeed drop and might fill wholes vs things like scapewish where you pretty much need ur reusable counterspell, since shes very strong with bounce. Shes also helps to stabilize predeed since shes got persist and flyes, so she can buy you a turn, she also triggers ur spellstrutter and is exceptional vs some combo if you manage to disrupt early game, shes also a bluecard for force which is essential :).

I'm actually thinking however of including rapid hybridization since its pitchable to force, it can ramp you with exlorer and add token. And it can remove annoying creatures predeed or postdeed like deathrites/confidant etc while the token easily dies to deed, or bounce :). This since atm the deck is still weak vs tempo, but still wants to remain blueheavy for forces.

And i love your work on this archetype aHood! Although you are really optimistic about your control into combo deck, vintage style, (although miracle rip/helm essentially is) I'm still doubtful since i believe for these control archetypes you need all your cards to be good on their own. It's exceptionally refreshing though with some1 who really is putting lots of work into develping NEW THINGS instead of sticking to this same old.

What say you ? ;)

[Arianrhod]

3 sensei's divining top

1 eternal witness
1 wolfir silverheart
4 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
2 venser, shaper savant
1 glen elendra archmage
3 veteran explorer

3 pernicious deed

4 brainstorm
3 force of will

4 cabal therapy
2 green sun's zenith
3 living wish

2 Jace, the mind sculptor

1 bayou
3 forest
3 island
4 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
1 swamp
2 tropical island
1 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs

SB:
1 deadeye navigator
1 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 veteran explorer
1 vampire hexmage
1 scavenging ooze

1 pernicious deed

3 counterbalance
1 force of will
2 surgical extraction

1 bojuka bog
1 karakas

This is my take on this intresting path of nic fit! So far it's been working out greatly ;) Right now the list obv has its issues vs tempo/aggro. Imo that must be the whole point of developing a new nic fit list, IE making it much stronger in the anti combo department while still maintaining its inherit strength vs tempo/manadenial. And currently it seems that the reduction of greenzun/veteran making it lack consistancy has made it perhaps to weak vs aggro/tempo. Therefore it could still use more tuning however i find it exceptionally hard to modify currently without removing the forces (blue count) which i feel is somehow the point of playing this version of nic fit.

I would really like to test more with the forces since i feel that nic fit's weakest link is its game1 vs unknown deck. Cabal therapy is just so much better g2, and if you somehow manage to wait until you fire off ur first cabals ur in so much better shape vs the unknown decks. Force + spellstrutter partially allows you to wait. With all the bounce (venser/jace) and just general opponent revealing cards (mystic/delvers/ringleader etc) together with Vindilion revealing, cabals is also very much live even in the later stages of the game.

The different take of this deck is that it whats to have enough early game disruption that it dosnt necesessarily have to fire off explorers into the unknown which i feel is also is potentially very strong.

Considering its lategame bombs i feel that deadeye is more than enough, and no matter what you pair it with it should pretty much always seal you the deal. I cannot understand why you would like to include pieces like zegana/palinchron, biomancer, for me all those are just winmore and very slow combo pieces. I mean in what situations do you really want a biomancer? The way i see this deck is that early game you want disruption or ramp, from which u must assume that vs most decks in order to regain the loss of tempo you have to deed. After deed you wanna lay down ur threats or control elements depending on what style you wish to proceed to end the game. Biomancer imo falls into the vacuum category in between IE neither do you wanna play him before deed nor do you wanna play him after deed, since by then ur essentially out of cards, and you need to topdeck a fellow in order to get value from the fellaw. I mean i dont see many scenarios where he can help you stabilize board predeed.

I did however try to play wolfir for the slot just for some testing since hes very much a superfast clock post deed and hes a very nice combat trick with all ur flashing dudes, hes espcially nice since most ur dudes are also flying :). What he also might do although rather unlikely is that he might help you stabilize predeed. Although im not entirely sold on him as of yet. I also felt to try out glen elendra which has been okish, although i feel shes also a superstrong postdeed drop and might fill wholes vs things like scapewish where you pretty much need ur reusable counterspell, since shes very strong with bounce. Shes also helps to stabilize predeed since shes got persist and flyes, so she can buy you a turn, she also triggers ur spellstrutter and is exceptional vs some combo if you manage to disrupt early game, shes also a bluecard for force which is essential :).

I'm actually thinking however of including rapid hybridization since its pitchable to force, it can ramp you with exlorer and add token. And it can remove annoying creatures predeed or postdeed like deathrites/confidant etc while the token easily dies to deed, or bounce :). This since atm the deck is still weak vs tempo, but still wants to remain blueheavy for forces.

And i love your work on this archetype aHood! Although you are really optimistic about your control into combo deck, vintage style, (although miracle rip/helm essentially is) I'm still doubtful since i believe for these control archetypes you need all your cards to be good on their own. It's exceptionally refreshing though with some1 who really is putting lots of work into develping NEW THINGS instead of sticking to this same old.

What say you ? ;)

I think there's a lot of good ideas here, but that you're probably unnecessarily hobbling yourself by playing The Good Cards.

Things I like:

Glen Elendra -- I have a not-so-secret crush on this card, and I have had since the days of Bant Survival. It plays well with Spellstutter, it's a hard-counter for any non-creature thing (which is usually the category that Nic Fit hates: see Jace TMS, Liliana/Veil, anything from storm, Show and Tell, etc), and it forms a nice pseudo-lock with Deadeye (flickering gets rid of the persist counter). At the same time, I don't know what Glen Elendra is actively good enough. She's really expensive, and she occupies much the same space as Venser does. She's probably fine as a 1-of to test with and see how she works.

Wolfir Silverheart -- This makes all the sense in the world with our higher number of flash creatures, and fulfills the "3rd 4-drop" slot despite not being a 4-drop. I regard Biomancer as the best chance that BUG has at replicating the Power 4-drop slot from the other lists (Rector and Huntmaster), but I don't think Biomancer is good enough / pushed enough to actually warrant a 3rd copy. Wolfir does what we want Biomancer to do....arguably better. I don't think that we're to the point where we can afford to cut Biomancer, though.

Room for V. Clique -- I wanttttttttttt it.

Things I don't like:

The Good Cards. Brainstorm and Jace are a deckbuilding disease. Jace will never be as good here as he is in something like Tao's Jace Fit, let alone a "real" Jace deck like BUGstill or Esperblade. Brainstorm is a powerful 1-shot, but it's actively worse than Top, because you can do Top as many times as you want.

The Wishes. I tried them, and didn't like them. I'd rather have the dudes maindeck and have an actual sideboard. One of the strengths of running blue, aside from Force of Will, is that you get to run more stack-based interaction in the sideboard.

If you cut Brainstorm, Jace, and Wish, you get 9 slots. That can be the 4th Explorer, the 3rd Green Sun, Thragtusk, Empath, Deadeye, and any other 4 creatures you want, which seems way better to me.

The strength of Biomancer, to me, is that he provides you a legitimate way to win the game, by making all of your utility 1/1s into sizable threats.

What are everyone's thoughts on Fathom Mage as a backup draw engine, perhaps instead of Zegana? Mage is cheaper and relies less on having big dudes in play already. The primary issue with Mage is that she might be a little harder to evolve. Witness evolves her, as does Venser and Clique, Biomancer is silly with her, and then the obvious 6-drops. Something else that might serve to help evolve her while not being bad for the deck would be Wall of Blossoms. I think that she's good enough to be worthy of discussing, but I'm not sure that I think she's good enough to actually test.

[drfontaine]

I think there's a lot of good ideas here, but that you're probably unnecessarily hobbling yourself by playing The Good Cards.

Things I like:

Glen Elendra -- I have a not-so-secret crush on this card, and I have had since the days of Bant Survival. It plays well with Spellstutter, it's a hard-counter for any non-creature thing (which is usually the category that Nic Fit hates: see Jace TMS, Liliana/Veil, anything from storm, Show and Tell, etc), and it forms a nice pseudo-lock with Deadeye (flickering gets rid of the persist counter). At the same time, I don't know what Glen Elendra is actively good enough. She's really expensive, and she occupies much the same space as Venser does. She's probably fine as a 1-of to test with and see how she works.

Wolfir Silverheart -- This makes all the sense in the world with our higher number of flash creatures, and fulfills the "3rd 4-drop" slot despite not being a 4-drop. I regard Biomancer as the best chance that BUG has at replicating the Power 4-drop slot from the other lists (Rector and Huntmaster), but I don't think Biomancer is good enough / pushed enough to actually warrant a 3rd copy. Wolfir does what we want Biomancer to do....arguably better. I don't think that we're to the point where we can afford to cut Biomancer, though.

Room for V. Clique -- I wanttttttttttt it.

Things I don't like:

The Good Cards. Brainstorm and Jace are a deckbuilding disease. Jace will never be as good here as he is in something like Tao's Jace Fit, let alone a "real" Jace deck like BUGstill or Esperblade. Brainstorm is a powerful 1-shot, but it's actively worse than Top, because you can do Top as many times as you want.

The Wishes. I tried them, and didn't like them. I'd rather have the dudes maindeck and have an actual sideboard. One of the strengths of running blue, aside from Force of Will, is that you get to run more stack-based interaction in the sideboard.

If you cut Brainstorm, Jace, and Wish, you get 9 slots. That can be the 4th Explorer, the 3rd Green Sun, Thragtusk, Empath, Deadeye, and any other 4 creatures you want, which seems way better to me.

The strength of Biomancer, to me, is that he provides you a legitimate way to win the game, by making all of your utility 1/1s into sizable threats.

What are everyone's thoughts on Fathom Mage as a backup draw engine, perhaps instead of Zegana? Mage is cheaper and relies less on having big dudes in play already. The primary issue with Mage is that she might be a little harder to evolve. Witness evolves her, as does Venser and Clique, Biomancer is silly with her, and then the obvious 6-drops. Something else that might serve to help evolve her while not being bad for the deck would be Wall of Blossoms. I think that she's good enough to be worthy of discussing, but I'm not sure that I think she's good enough to actually test.

Thanks alot for your input as always ahod!

Considering the disease include i completly agree that jace will never be half as good as in other decks, that dosnt mean i didnt put alot of thought into including him nor brainstorm. Thing is you need the bluecount, which is the same reason i like the wish package, it saves slots. You lose tempo but add flex, and saves you from clogged hands. Brainstorm is also super with the counterbalance SB. Which for me makes perfect sense for BUG fit, since its exactly the card you want in matchups where deed is bad, which is really the only anti synergistic card with cb in main.

Im def open to suggestions concerning jace slots, however i need b count, want something that survives deed and helps predeed, and dosnt clog. Therefore jace makes somewhat sense. I dont consider biomancer nor fathom mage no matter hos much i like the beautiful cards. They wont help me when im behind.

Flash btw i think is very nice with veteran since when times he chumps cause opp decides they wanna attack him you can use the mana and respond with ur flash creatures :).

[Arianrhod]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=299990

Korean Explorer at 16 (on sale) at SCG. Go nuts, people.

[TheArchitect]

With all those slots, and the desire for card advantage and blue count, why not do something like 3 coiling oracle, 3 baleful strix? They dont draw you 6 cards like Zengra will do on rare occasion, but They net you a card every time, help ramp and stop creatures respectively, can be FoW pitched, and drawing them later in the game with a biomancer out is obviously awesome. Strix also does well with Wolfir Silverheart.

I can see the argument for no Jace as valid, he does much better in reactive decks that pack tons of permission (UWx, BUGstill, etc). But Brainstorm is still really good. At its worst it's a blue card that replaces itself eot, at its best it's ancestral visions or discard protection. I still think 4of is good idea.


I also tried your scapeshift modifications. Regardless of the Pneedles in the SB, I really liked swapping decays for more ramp doods. Avenger of zendikar won me some games that I probably* would have lost of otherwise. However, I never needed him because valakuts were not an option, I just saw GSZ before shifts/BWs those games. I dont think Ill be running him (cutting to 60 cards), but if not being able to valakut becomes a common problem I can see his justification. When he was good, he was good. Im not sure about my exact SB, but Ill be playing something very similar to that list tomorrow.

Are you going to be playing deadeye at mythic tomorrow? In the state that it is at now, it looks much better.

[Undomian]

Glen Elendra does play pretty well with Biomancer for a soft lock of sorts unless I'm missing something, though that seems really win-more.

[Arianrhod]

Glen Elendra does play pretty well with Biomancer for a soft lock of sorts unless I'm missing something, though that seems really win-more.

I didn't even think of that. Corner-case, to be sure -- but it's at least a half a point in Glen Elendra's favor.

Although, I will note that this gets me wondering yet again why we've never tried to port Melira Pod from Modern into a Nic Fit shell. I've wondered this like eight times, thought about it for half a sec, gave it a "huh," and moved on with my life. One of these days I should probably put more thought into that lol.

[TheArchitect]

I think if any color of nic fit should be playing Pod, its BUG. With BS and instant speed permission, blue is the only color that can really defend the pod engine (and the graveyard) even if white or red have "better" creatures to be pod'd into.

[drfontaine]

With all those slots, and the desire for card advantage and blue count, why not do something like 3 coiling oracle, 3 baleful strix? They dont draw you 6 cards like Zengra will do on rare occasion, but They net you a card every time, help ramp and stop creatures respectively, can be FoW pitched, and drawing them later in the game with a biomancer out is obviously awesome. Strix also does well with Wolfir Silverheart.

I can see the argument for no Jace as valid, he does much better in reactive decks that pack tons of permission (UWx, BUGstill, etc). But Brainstorm is still really good. At its worst it's a blue card that replaces itself eot, at its best it's ancestral visions or discard protection. I still think 4of is good idea.


Strixes are probably useful, however they are at their best when protecting pws which is not really plan a. They are also cantrip for annoying mana in some matchups, and in moar cases id prefer not to tap out, representing sprite or counter or just save mana for top, they ofc also die to deed. Oracle i feel is only ok when it ramps, but alot of time he wont even be able to chump cause flying and unless i aint got no cabal in gy, he feels lacking but perhaps i should test more.

Right now im actually considering remand as a strong contender to improve the midrange matchups. Hard matchups atm include jund and bug tempo etc, vs those i can remand Lily, confidant, hymn etc and it would be great! I like the synergy with cabal and considering nic fits very strong topdeckmode i dont mind to reduce its power a bit. I feel the card should be ok in all mu, while beeing strong vs midrange where the deck really needs help! And i would just love to remand fow ;)!

I also really wanna test cryptic command since its synergy with the deck is strong.

[MrIggins]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=299990

Korean Explorer at 16 (on sale) at SCG. Go nuts, people.

Snapped that right up along with a bunch of foreign stuff because it's ALL ON SALE. Thanks!

[Qweerios]

@TheArchitect and Arianrhod

Pod is an engine that requires a lot of fuel. You need to have a lot of creatures available that are both good on their own and grant enough value to be worth podding out. In modern, this works great because the format is extremely combo light (quasi non-existent) and/or the combos aren't fast enough/easy to protect which makes ramp and permanent based approaches much more reliable strategies. It also works because exile removal is more scarce and usually comes at a hefty price (PtE) making Persist and Undying great value mechanics. Cards like Kitchen Finks are extremely good on their own because of all the above + the fact that it gains life, which is highly relevant in a shockland format. While Legacy holds the bigger card pool, it doesn't however, allow you to play 3-4 colors safely unlike modern where your creature pool is most limited by the time of their release rather than their mana cost. When creatures aren't running the format, Pod's uses become very limited. Trying to squeeze in a permission/disruption/removal suite not in creature form is a great way to poke holes at your gas tank before a long trip.

On the topic of Brainstorm and Jace being deck-building diseases. I couldn't disagree more. Brainstorm and Jace are cards that Nic Fit needs more so than most decks playing them in the first place. Asserting that they don't belong in this deck only shows how misunderstood their application is. A deck-building disease would be something along the lines of desperately trying to make a card that goes against the fundamental principles of your deck strategy because it can be potentially game-breaking in the advent that your opponent has none of the conventional answers or that you can keep them in check via other cards (YAWN: You.Are.Winning.Now). I have been reading this forum lately with my forehead stuck to my palms and felt like some things needed to be reminded. I will try to use more colors because the trend seems to be towards cute things.

What makes Nic Fit good:

-Asymmetrical ramp of two basic lands or more. When this effect is symmetrical, it becomes tempo for card disadvantage and Nic Fit's core strategy loses value. Asymmetrical has two meanings here:
1) Your opponent does not have 2 basics to fetch;
2) Your opponent does not have cards that abuse a higher land count.

-The presence of decks affected by board wipes in your metagame, namely Deed. There is no equivalent to Pernicious Deed against decks that don't use permanents to win (Mind Twist is banned). Nic Fit being green and black at its core only offers limited disruption against combo decks. If you find yourself siding them out often, play another deck!

-The presence and availability of game-breaking spells (bombs). Usually the higher the mana cost, the greater the effect. Inversely, the greater the mana cost, the higher the chances of it being a dead card. This is mostly avoided by packing the least copies possible but having a reliable way to find them. Currently, our best tools to accomplish that purpose are Green Sun's Zenith, Brainstorm, and Jace. The latter is often both a tool and an agent which leads to a loop that constantly brings you more means of winning a game.

Take Caleb D. for example, he built Nic Fit when the metagame was ripe for a Deed.dec (AKA: Maverick/RUG era), he tried to make it a better deck by including what it lacked compared to the other competitive control decks (Brainstorm and Jace), and he finally moved on to something else when combo and control re-emerged and FoW was too much of a stretch for Nic Fit (SnT/Miracle era).

[slikwilly]

Are you going to be playing deadeye at mythic tomorrow? In the state that it is at now, it looks much better.

On a related note, anyone going to Indy? I do believe I will be playing Rector on Sunday.

[Greenpoe]

I agree with Qweerios. I'd even say Jace is fantastic in any version of Nic Fit with Blue - whether it's Chrono, BUG, Future Sight, Deadeye. The bombs in Nic Fit are there either to provide huge card advantage (Future Sight, for example), win conditions (fat creatures, for example), or lock components (like Moat) or planeswalkers. Is there any other card that fits all these criteria for 4 mana? Some will fit 2 or even 3, but not for just 4 mana. (I consider Jace's +2 a soft lock because of the insane difficulty of an opponent actually winning once you start ticking him up.) Jace is the Burning Wish/Scapewish for blue. Lots of versatility, card advantage, stalling, kills enemy Jaces, soft lock component, win-condition, can replay comes-into-play triggers if necessary, can return your creature before popping a Deed, etc. Of course, once you've got Jace, Strix looks like a really good idea. Jace just does a lot, even if he is cliche.

[Tao]

I agree with everything qweerios said.

- the claim that Brainstorm is bad in Nic Fit is ludicrous. Early on it finds you Therapies, Lands and Explorers, in the late game it shuffles them away. In the late game it finds you bombs, in the early game it shuffles them away. Against Combo it finds you disruption and shuffles away Abrupt Decay, against a Tempo deck that spits out its hand it finds you Abrupt Decay and shuffles away Discard. Post board it increases the number of SB cards you draw. Brainstorm is the best card ever and does everything you want. At the absolutely worst it cycles for one mana.

- Jace is awesome. Clear 4-off. Who needs synergy when you have Jace? Isochron Scepter with Brainstorm imprinted, that is Jace's synergy.

- Pod is extremely difficult to get to work properly. The only way I see it getting used is a a 1-of or a 2-of in a deck that naturally plays a solid creature curve (for example with Huntmaster or Rector on CMC 4). I won't say it is impossible to make a dedicated Pod list with 3 or 4 Pods, but it is hard because it puts so much restraints on the deck building. I tried but have given up on it.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

It's not better to play a normal BUG nic fit list with deadeye instead the grave or primeval titan?

the deadeye list looks a bit inconsistent playing only 1 deadeye.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My thoughts:
-Brainstorm is an auto 4-of in any blue list and JMS is at least an auto 2-of, just because of their potential to manipulate both your hand and your library. Whereas Top has more longevity and thus allows for more activations, Brainstorm and JMS provide significantly more power with one activation.

-The goal of the Deadeye list is to run a minimal number of 6+ CMC drops then use Fierce Empath with Deadeye to pull them out. Basically, if you get to untap once or twice with Deadeye and something with a strong etb effect, you win.

[UseLess]

I've been tinkering with my BuG Gift list of late again. Last week I brought the deck to a local tournament and it was again fun to play, but had the feeling something was still missing from the deck. With a result of 2-2-1 my two losses were to Canadian Thresh and Affinity and both crushed me in the early game. Though this might have been also due to (bad) luck/bad plays I felt that my early game was too weak to face such very aggressive decks. I also noticed that I boarded out Recurring Nightmare and Consecrated Sphinx almost every game 2 (and 3), so I decided to cut these and make some room for brainstorm, a card I had already for some time in my mind but couldn't figure out what to cut. I've tested the list a couple of times yesterday, but still had that little 'meh' feeling now and then. Tomorrow is another small tournament to which I will bring this list, because I don't have the opportunity to change a lot before tomorrow. Anyway, the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster mage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Wolvir Silverheart

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Unearth
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Gifts Ungiven

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Phyrexian Tower

// SB
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Duress
3 Daze
4 Negate
3 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction

The sideboard used to contain a Kitchen Finks and 2 Pithing needle, but those were underperforming. I moved Thrun from main to SB as it is outclassed by Huntmaster in almost every matchup and I have pondered on more discard for some time, so decided to test 2 duress in the SB versus combo/(blue) control.

For the MB I've been thinking if the brainstorms are worth the slots, yes they might be good, but was not too satisfied with the effect. One alternative I was concidering is -4 brainstorm, +1 Top, +1 Abrupt (they are so good!), +1 Jace and +1 something. On the other hand, I already have lots of creature removal so a fourth decay might not be worth it. More discard is also an option. Do people have experience with Hymn to Tourach in the MB? I don't like thoughtseize due to the life loss, which I already have a hard time with sometimes (I'd rather search for Wolvir than Thragtusk as finisher, only when I really need the life I look for Thragtusk). Any tips/comments? Cutting Gifts is not an option, I love it and suits my playstyle very well. Main reason to play blue as splash ;). Daze is a similar personal decision, I like to have some interaction early on vs combo and stuff like that, but those can be changed if I get some good suggestions. Fire away!

[Tao]

It's not better to play a normal BUG nic fit list with deadeye instead the grave or primeval titan?

the deadeye list looks a bit inconsistent playing only 1 deadeye.

I would not recommend playing Deadeye at all, in any version. I think the card is bad. It was not good enough for Block Constructed, Standard or Modern.

- You do not need 6-drops to beat combo, that matchup is usually decided by preventing them from killing you and you win with Witness or Thrun beatdown.
-You also don't need special 6-drops against Midrange, Aggro or Tempo. Those matchups are decided by overcoming their disruption, controlling the board and harvesting real card advantage (Jace, Liliana, Deed, Witness, Punishing Fire) or virtual card advantage (Rector, Huntmaster, Cabal Therapy) while doing so. After that any 6-drop will be sufficient.
- 6-drops are important against other control decks though to break a stall, because the games go longer and they might be able to answer all weaker drops. But those decks are currently almost exclusively UW/x and so they run 4 Swords to Plowshares and 3 Snapcaster Mages. That means that the same second a targetable threat hits the board it gets exiled, (almost) no exceptions. Deadeye gives you nothing in that situation (even IF you manage to play it with 8 mana in play they should easily be able to play around the soulbound) while Primeval leaves you with 2 unblockable lands.

[TheArchitect]

I got 8th at Mythic today out of like 36 people. I used this Scapewish list:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold


SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Ruination


R1: A nice guy who unfortunately the only casual player in the room - Green creatures

1-0

R2: Bryant Cook - TES
The Storm master kept a slow G1 hand that had like the nuts against a blue deck (triple silence/probe). I had top, the right lands, BW and no therapies. He discarded my burning wish target (thoughtseize) after silencing me. I had plenty of time and was able to strip his hand around turn 5 and then win (with valakuts i think?).

Game 2 I hit his hand pretty hard, and he knows I have mindbreak trap in hand so has to find a way around it. He recovers his hand while I get to 30 with 2 thrags, and have him at 1. I manage to therapy for 3 Rite of flames and then flashback to hit his past in flames. At this point, i have REB, MTB in hand and MTB on top. Lands are not an issue, he silences me, does some rituals, cantrips and LEDs, flashes back the PiF and tendrils me for exactly 30 :/

G3, I think i went t1 therapy and hit and LED. I dont remember exactly what happened, I think he top decked another LED. Probed me and saw (among other things) Vet, tower, BW, and then made 16 goblins. He missed the play I had though. Cause then I played explorer, tower, made 2 black and got 2 mountain and BW for pyroclasm. I won sometime later.

2-0, I was pretty happy pumped here, I beat a bad matchup and piloted by the decks progenitor itself.

R3: Eli Kassis with 4c RIP helm control.
G1, I wreck his hand, he misses a critical land drop he needed for JTMS, and scapeshift him a while later after dealing with his energy field.
G2/3, He has FoW for just the right things and kills me very quickly both games with his combo. I think he killed me turn 4 or 5 both games. He was running felwar stone like a champ!

2-1, This matchup made me sad I dropped the Abrupt Decays and wish I had room for reverent silence or hullbreach in my SB.

R4: Theo - Goblins
Finally I good match (so I thought). I dont remember G1/2. But G3, after a few deeds, many dead vets, and a pyroclasm, I thought I had him totally out of the game. I had deed in play, and deed in hand. I was at 7, but he had zero creatures or cards in hand. He topdecks his 1 Siege gang commander, throws goblins at me to put me at 1. I HAVE to dead, or he can untap and throw the commander itself at me. I deed for 5, and drop the other deed. He topdecks a ringleader and gets me with haste.

2-2, Losing to goblins shouldnt happen with this deck :/

R5: Andrew - Fish
Dont remember many details for this one either. He had a MD clique and jitte which caught me off guard and wrecked me G1. G2 and 3 the angry mountains did their thing. G3 was VERY close, I missed my only therapy of the day this match and it made things a lot harder. For future reference when blind theraping against fish, ALWAYS NAME SILVERGILL.

3-2, I can still make it if I 4-2.

R6: Ed Demicco - Monoblack Smallpox
Ed 2-0'd me last month with pox, so I was pretty bummed to have to play that again. G1 I keep a very risky hand with 2 non-basics, tribe elder, therapy and some other stuff. I therapy a bob away, and see 2 Nights whisper and a bloodgast. I play the tribe elder, and make what I later realized was definitely the right play and saced elder to therapy his 2 Nights whisper. He doesnt see lily, but beats me down with 2 bloodgasts, and a bob he draws eventually. I play 2 Huntmasters, but he deals with both them with a cursed scroll. I note the that only card hes keeping in his hand for scroll is 1 dark ritual. I joke about how nasty a turn 1 lily would be. He has leathal on board, but with a fetch, I am able to top into a scapeshift for 36 damage!

G2 he does it. Turn 1 lily. Turn 2 hymn. GOD. Ive lost at this point, but play it out anyways.

G3 He small poxes me a few times, but is landscrewed enough himself that he doesnt even use his wasteland. I discard a primetime to one of the early poxes keeping lands and tribe elder in favor of him. He plays 2 cursed scrolls while I ramp. He draws a land and gets back 3 blood gasts that he had discarded to his small poxes. Reanimate earns its keep as I get back that prime titan and scapeshift a couple turns later, while I get dangerously close to dead.

4-2 Yay top 8, just barely. Top 8 is 2 TES, 1 Hermit Druid combo, 1 Omnicence (I think with dream halls and enter the infinite?), Mav, goblins and elves.

T8, R1 - Cook again - TES
G1, I have to mull to 4 and keep top, 2 land, and something irrelevant. He Gets me turn 2 with grapeshot for 7 and a tendrils for for 16.
G2, I therapy his LED and he cant win immediately with the rest of his hand. He mainphase BS into LED, tutor, something good. NIIIICE. He probes me and sees I have deed, bw, and valakut as my only land (with just my bayou in play). He makes 14 goblins and passes. Now In my head Im thinking, all I need is 1 land I got this. Just need to draw a land. I draw a forest and instaslam it down. YES! WAIT, SHIT. Now I need to draw ANOTHER land, cause valakuts the only other one in my hand. I go down to 6 and draw not-a-land. and I need either red for BW, or 3 mana for Deed.

Like usual, I get a solid punt in but whatever. I probably would have lost G3. It's still a overall bad matchup.




There might might be a game I am forgetting, but I dont think I won a SINGLE game by attacking with creatures today. They obviously helped me get there, but valakuts ended it every time.

I really liked dropping the Decays for more ramp guys. It sucked against the RIP combo, but was better in every other matchup.

I never NEEDED Avenger of Zendikar, however, there might have been a chance to play it against pox where it would have been good. I dont remember if I ever had 8 lands and GSZ though. While not bad, I dont think the card is needed unless the meta is full of a lot more midrangy decks (SSG open maybe?).

Relic of progenitus, I only brought in against TES and pox, I mainly wanted it there for drs/goyf/tombostalker/mongoose decks. I still think Id run these If i was expecting these decks. BUG and Junk can be pretty tough for me sometimes. In those matches, I usually go -1 ewit, -1 thrag, +2 Relic.

I think I might drop ruination. It really isnt worth the slot unless Im expected 2-4 turbo eldrazi decks. Thats really the only thing its good/needed against and I might just have to accept the loss if I see glacial chasms. Id like to squeeze in reverent silence for RIP, random enchantress, and mostly leylines.

Overall I'm still pretty happy with the deck. I know its far from the best deck in my Meta right now but its fun and Ive been consistently top 8 or top 16 with it.

[XdeckX]

ScapeWish is still viable. Yesterday I played a GPT (32 players). I switched over to Jund but one of my friends ran ScapeWish (he copied the list I used card for card) We both made top8. Since neither of us was interested in the byes we scooped to our opponents but still played for fun. We both won and would have been paired against eachother.

So it's still possible to make top8 finishes with ScapeWish eventhough it might not be the best build right now.
The changes in the meta is bad for almost all NicFit builds (there's lots of combo and BUG out there right now) so I'm not sure what build to run right now.
I've been testing the BUG list Ariarhrod posted earlier but found it lacking. The Master Biomancer is really good and fun but I doubt its better than a build with Jace and Liliana tbh.

[TheArchitect]

I still think scapewish is the best Nic Fit variant in most metas. But I think right now nic fit isn't too good. Do you guys remember right around, and about 3 months before, DRS and abrupt decay came out the top 16s at big events had like 1-2 combo decks in them? Well now they have like 6-10 combo decks in them because everyone started play GBx midrangey decks, and everyone else cut back on countermagic to react to that change.

The meta has swayed pretty far towards being combo heavy. It will bounce back soon once people realize that RUG and UWx Miracles are still really good decks. And then then jund and junk will rise again to fight those, and then combo (like we have now) will be in power. It is the cyclical nature of legacy. Nic fit does best in the RUG/UW and GBx meta, but right now, poorly in the combo meta.

I still think Scapeshift is about the same, possibly better, against combo than other nic fit variants. Lets face it, except for a BUG list with 12+ ways to discard or counter stuff on turn 1 and something like Lily or Jace to lock up the game once it gets to turn 3-4, nic fit is always going to be pretty bad against combo. Even rector or disruption heavy GB, statistically SHOULD lose to combo most of the time.

[Arianrhod]

ScapeWish is still viable. Yesterday I played a GPT (32 players). I switched over to Jund but one of my friends ran ScapeWish (he copied the list I used card for card) We both made top8. Since neither of us was interested in the byes we scooped to our opponents but still played for fun. We both won and would have been paired against eachother.

So it's still possible to make top8 finishes with ScapeWish eventhough it might not be the best build right now.
The changes in the meta is bad for almost all NicFit builds (there's lots of combo and BUG out there right now) so I'm not sure what build to run right now.
I've been testing the BUG list Ariarhrod posted earlier but found it lacking. The Master Biomancer is really good and fun but I doubt its better than a build with Jace and Liliana tbh.

Pretty much agreed on all counts.

The thing with Scapewish is that it's largely a 50/50 game. You're playing the odds of getting paired up against combo vs against fair.dec. If you hit a fair deck, you almost always win. If you hit a combo deck, you almost always lose. I'm not saying that Scapewish can't beat unfair decks. Evan beat Bryant Cook this weekend, and a few months ago, I took Scapewish to the top 4 by beating Ning's TES as well. It can certainly be done. But, beating combo is like losing to fair.dec. It's not "supposed" to happen. That's what makes Scapewish a worse choice in the current meta, IMO -- the prevalence of combo decks makes the odds of hitting one as opposed to a fair deck something like 70/30 or maybe 65/35.

As far as the meta is concerned, I do believe that the cyclical nature of the format is going to kick in soon and chase the combo out of town. RUG had a strong showing at SCG Indy this weekend, and it's only a matter of time before people realize that all of the it-girls from a few months ago are golden again -- Maverick and RUG in particular are solid choices, and I am firmly convinced that a window of 2-3 weeks is coming up fast where Miracles will be the actual best deck in the format...right when Maverick and RUG return, but combo is still prevalent.

So....for now, I would say just hang on a few more weeks. Change is definitely coming. I do think, though, that I'll be wielding Force of Wills in April, mostly because I have a sick brew with a friend of mine that I want to test out (no Explorers involved).

On that note, I got to do a few games for fun with Deadeye after the event finished, against U/R Delver. Not a great matchup, and I acknowledge that, but Deadeye's performance was somewhat lackluster. Biomancer was amazing -- making 3/3 Sprites that can trade with Delvers while countering Brainstorms or Ponders for value (to say nothing of Chains or Bolts) was fantastic. There was also a 7/5 Thragtusk at one point, and I got to live the dream with a Biomancer+Zegana interaction. I still definitely lost more than I won, though, and I'm despairing of it working at all. As much as I would like to have a Nic Fit viable for each meta combination (aggro/combo, combo/control, aggro/control), I feel like there's just something missing from BUG that would make it "click." Like, I look at Deadeye, and after trying for three works of aggressively trying to make it work, I can't come up with any reason why I would rather play it over BUGStill or Team America other than Nic Fit for the sake of Nic Fit.

Deadeye was substantially closer than any of the blue iterations I've tried in the past have been, however, and I do think a day will come in the future that WotC will print something that will enable a blue list. Maybe we'll get something exciting in Dragon's Maze. Who knows. I'm hanging up my hat on Deadeye, though. It was frustratingly close, but it's just not quite there.

As for Mythic, I took top 16 with Rector....I think I ended in like 12th place or so. I believe that 90% of this can be tied to the fact that I drew in round 1 with my frequent-carmate and frequent-round-1-pairing Tony's "big deadguy." If I'd had a bit more time I would have been able to wrap it up, but as it was we just couldn't quite finish it out. Starting in the draw bracket was miserable, especially when I got paired down against an 0-1 Dream Halls / Omnitell deck that shit all over me, because I'd removed the Cranial twins and Carpet of Flowers as a meta call. I then got to feel like a bad person as I devastated the same mono-green casual player that Evan beat round 1, then I scooped BFS's Elves in (we were going to draw, and I decided that he had a better matchup vs the top tables than I did), then I beat BUGStill convincingly, and beat Doug McKay's U/R Storm deck.

Aggravating sidenote RE Elves matchup: game one he Zenithed for Arbor and passed. I Therapied Glimpse, knowing that he was playing Elves. I hit one. He draws another Glimpse off the top of his deck, and kills me on turn 2. So fucking irritating when you lose like that, knowing you did everything right that you could have possibly done. My hand was fantastic, I had a Therapy and hit blind, everything. Just didn't matter. Then game two I slammed Moat and he didn't think to board his Sliver in, because he didn't know what I was on exactly. He resorted to having to Deathrite me out, and he did manage to get me to 1 before I stabilized. Sigarda eventually locked up game 2, but, as I noted, I scooped him in.

I ran the 75 in my sig with one exception. I decided before the event that I wasn't happy looking at the Engineered Explosives. There are two cornercases for Explosives: ET->EE on t1, crack on t2 to sweep Goblin tokens (better than Deed by a turn); and ET->EE to kill Revokers naming Deed. I felt that #2 was vastly too unlikely to worry about, and #1 was probably a needless concern since most games I'm going to have an Explorer or a Therapy or am just dead anyway.

In the EE's place, I put in a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. I've been wanting to test out Sorin for the longest time, and while I was considering making him a 2nd copy of Elspeth, I felt that a 1-1 split was probably a little better.

And good lord, did Sorin perform.

He specifically shined in the Deadguy and BUGStill matchups....which were the only two I boarded him in for. Vs Deadguy he provided a ton of pressure, even through my own repeated board sweeps. At one point I was racing to ultimate him against a growing Elspeth on the other side of the table, and forced Tony to use a Revoker naming Sorin....which then eventually got Deeded away, while I Vindicated his Elspeth in the meantime. Vs BUGStill he didn't do as much -- he provided a swarm of tokens to pressure / defend vs Factories with. But, what he did do there, was act as basically a nuclear deterrent to Jace TMS. My opponent actually couldn't play Jace, because Sorin was hanging out on-field.

Batterskull was surprisingly fine, and did a lot of work for me throughout the day. Sorin, Elspeth, Batterskull, 2x ET was my "fair deck" package, and it worked admirably. I do think that the combo hate side needs a bit of work, though. Basically the other 10 cards in the sideboard should be varying forms of combo hate, with the 2x ET playing into that side as well. I'm just not sure what all I want right now.

[slikwilly]

I still think scapewish is the best Nic Fit variant in most metas. But I think right now nic fit isn't too good. Do you guys remember right around, and about 3 months before, DRS and abrupt decay came out the top 16s at big events had like 1-2 combo decks in them? Well now they have like 6-10 combo decks in them because everyone started play GBx midrangey decks, and everyone else cut back on countermagic to react to that change.

The meta has swayed pretty far towards being combo heavy. It will bounce back soon once people realize that RUG and UWx Miracles are still really good decks. And then then jund and junk will rise again to fight those, and then combo (like we have now) will be in power. It is the cyclical nature of legacy. Nic fit does best in the RUG/UW and GBx meta, but right now, poorly in the combo meta.

I still think Scapeshift is about the same, possibly better, against combo than other nic fit variants. Lets face it, except for a BUG list with 12+ ways to discard or counter stuff on turn 1 and something like Lily or Jace to lock up the game once it gets to turn 3-4, nic fit is always going to be pretty bad against combo. Even rector or disruption heavy GB, statistically SHOULD lose to combo most of the time.

Quoted for truth man, quoted for truth.

I took Rector to Indy. I'll spare you all the gory details, but here's my matchups:
Round 1: Sneak & Show
Round 2: Death & Taxes
Round 3: Mono-red Sneak Attack
Round 4: UG Enchantress
Round 5: High Tide
Round 6: UB Delver
Round 7: Sneak & Show
Round 8: 12 Post
Round 9: RUG

My record was exactly what you'd expect from those matchups. One of my friends (on Tin Fins) played against Show & Tell in 4 rounds. Another on RUG ran into a ton of combo too. There was a game I played in R3 on the play where I opened w/ Thoughtseize (my concession to expecting a fair bit of combo), Therapy, Therapy and still lost on his turn 2! If you're planning on playing in DC this weekend, you better be prepared for a lot of combo.

[Arianrhod]

Quoted for truth man, quoted for truth.

I took Rector to Indy. I'll spare you all the gory details, but here's my matchups:
Round 1: Sneak & Show
Round 2: Death & Taxes
Round 3: Mono-red Sneak Attack
Round 4: UG Enchantress
Round 5: High Tide
Round 6: UB Delver
Round 7: Sneak & Show
Round 8: 12 Post
Round 9: RUG

My record was exactly what you'd expect from those matchups. One of my friends (on Tin Fins) played against Show & Tell in 4 rounds. Another on RUG ran into a ton of combo too. There was a game I played in R3 on the play where I opened w/ Thoughtseize (my concession to expecting a fair bit of combo), Therapy, Therapy and still lost on his turn 2! If you're planning on playing in DC this weekend, you better be prepared for a lot of combo.

Ouch. I'm gonna guess 5-4? Sneak/Show is beatable, as is UG and High Tide. DnT can be harder than one should expect, Mono-red is just plain strange. 12post is unwinnable, RUG and UB should be good matchups.

So like, if you beat RUG and UB, then one of the Sneaks, UG, and Mono-red imploded on itself; then that would be 5-4, and I could realistically see that happening.

[Iron Buddha]

What do you have in mind with combo? Because imo there is actually a great difference between S&T, Reanimator combo and TES, ANT.

[Arianrhod]

What do you have in mind with combo? Because imo there is actually a great difference between S&T, Reanimator combo and TES, ANT.

The trick is finding efficient bullets. The Big Two are as close to a universal answer as we're going to get: Nether Void and Humility. Void kills storm-combo, Humility kills cheaty-creature-combo.

The problem isn't those combos. The problem is the more obscure shit like OmniTell and Elves. Humility is both too slow vs Elves and doesn't do enough -- they still have a deck with 35 1/1s that cost G. Nether Void also doesn't do enough, because they have Gaea's Cradle.

Blind Obedience was a thought to try to contain Elves while slowing down other decks like TES...but I don't think it does enough. Nettle Sentinel still untaps, and at best BO buys you a turn.

Chalice of the Void seems fairly legit vs Elves if they don't bring in Abrupt Decay -- also has benefits vs TES/ANT/Spy by hitting their artifact mana. I'm not sure why they WOULD bring in Abrupt Decay unless they kill you too quickly to know what you're on and assume you're just some kind of Junk deck.

Ideally, I would like my board setup to be the following:

5-card attrition package (Junk/Jund): Planeswalker x2 + Batterskull + ET x2
Generic aggro package: ET x2
Blue aggro package (tempo): ET x2 + Carpet of Flowers x2-3
Blue control package (Esperblade): Carpet of Flowers x2-3 + Batterskull + Planeswalker x2
Blue combo/control package (Miracles): Carpet of Flowers x2-3 + Batterskull + Planeswalker x2 + ET x2 + [hate card] x1-2
Blue combo package (OmniTell): Carpet of Flowers x2-3 + ET x2 + Humility + [hate card] x2-3
Sneak and Show: Carpet of Flowers x2-3 + ET x2 + Humility + [hate card] x4-5
TES/ANT: ET x2 + Nether Void + [hate card] x5-7
Reanimator/Spy: ET x2 + Humility + Nether Void + [hate card] x5-7

The issue is figuring out the [hate card] brackets.

Sneak Attack probably doesn't need 4-5 hate slots, because we're actually better against them than I really like to admit. I just furious detest that deck and I hate losing to it, so I probably over-board a bit.

OmniTell is the specific combo deck that I'm okay with having an Achilles heel to. It's an atrocious matchup in the first place, and then they usually run Leyline of Sanctity in the board on top of it.

The highest priorities in terms of combo decks I'd like to beat are TES/ANT -> Reanimator/Spy -> Sneak/Show. I'd like to also not be just screwed vs Elves, but a lot of that comes down to the individual games, I think. Like g1, if we survive to Moat g1, we just win. On the spot. They can't answer it. Then we have to get lucky with Deeds/Moat/Therapies/etc in either game 2 or game 3. That's fine.

Belcher is actually less terrible than a lot of us give it credit for, because usually they're on the Goblins plan, which we're actually surprisingly well-equipped to deal with, because Deed deck. Sometimes they drop Belcher and pass the turn, and we have a chance to Fetters it, Pulse it, Vindicate it, or Deed it. Sometimes they just kill us.

Leyline of Sanctity, I believe, is crucial. Leyline forces Belcher, TES, and ANT to run the Goblins plan. TES/ANT can bounce the Leyline and then go off, but they aren't Duressing/Therapying us in the meantime, which should buy us time to establish more hate.

Leyline of the Void is the best shot against Reanimator/Spy. They run a few bounce spells, but they usually have to dig a few turns to find it. The question is whether we can afford the space for Leyline of the Void as well:

If we go with the following:

2 ET
1 Batterskull
2 Planeswalker
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nether Void
1 Humility

That leaves us with a whopping THREE slots left. 3 Leyline of the Void would shore up Reanimator/Spy, but do basically nothing else for us, which is rough. This is also before adding Chalice of the Void. We could shave back to 2 Leyline of Sanctity on behalf of the Chalice, which would leave us 3 slots left to play with. That's still not a lot.

Anyway, that's my thought process and where I'm at, at the moment. Haven't made any final decisions yet.

[slikwilly]

Ouch. I'm gonna guess 5-4? Sneak/Show is beatable, as is UG and High Tide. DnT can be harder than one should expect, Mono-red is just plain strange. 12post is unwinnable, RUG and UB should be good matchups.

So like, if you beat RUG and UB, then one of the Sneaks, UG, and Mono-red imploded on itself; then that would be 5-4, and I could realistically see that happening.

You give me too much credit I'm afraid.

R1 was against a guy in my group who made T16. I knew he was on S&S so I mull for disruption. T1 therapy him (on the draw) naming S&T and see Tarn, Pierce, Grisel, Emy, Sneak, Brainstorm x2. He's able to get Sneak on the board on T3. G2 he takes out S&T and goes on the hard cast Sneak plan. So we're going Land/Go and he gets it down before I can get Humilty down. Draws a bunch of cards, Forces my last ditch Humility the following turn, then Emy.
0-1

R2 I actually took. Don't recall much of G1 but I think I got there on Sigarda (exile this buddy). G2 I stuck a Moat and a Humility then dropped Recycle so I could dig for Elspeth or Diabolic Intent. Eventually found Intent finding Elspeth and then beat face w/ that. Took a long time and a whole lot of cards to get there. And active Recycle once again draws a crowd.
1-1

R3 I get game 1. Don't recall how but I think Thoughtseize and Therapy were involved. G2 he mulls to five, I keep some disruption, but he still topdecks the Seething Song he needs. G3 I mull to five, looking for some interaction, but he goes off T2 regardless.
1-2

R4 frustrates me. My crew all thinks that Nic Fit should wreck enchantress. I have never been able to beat this deck. Don't recall much of it other than Words of Wind continues its reign of terror against me. I am also badly in need of sugar and caffeine at this point, which I'm sure didn't help. Still, this deck just seems insanely resilient to Deed every time I play it, which drives me nuts.
1-3

R5 G1 don't recall. G2 I Extirpate his T1 Ponder. I Extirepate his first High Tide when he starts trying to go off. But he's on the Candle version and gets all the Turnabouts. Took him a while to make it, but he eventually gets there.
1-4

R6 is the most frustrating by far because, um, Delver vs Deed? But he's got a steady stream of Daze/Pierce/Force and early delvers flipping and Inquisition tearing my hand apart. Both games by the time I am able to get an answer down he's dropping Tombstalker. I like the deck, kinda wonder why it doesn't seem more play.
1-5

R7 Don't recall anything, but we went to 3 games.
1-6

R8 was pretty insane. He goes T1 Cloudpost. I Therapy for Prime Time and hit. Durdle for a while, he eventually lands a Prime Time. I stick a Moat on my turn so he can't swing. He uses Eye of Ugin to go find some eldrazi while he's waiting to draw into enough posts to play them. I've got a Rector out and finally draw a Therapy. Therapy for Emy to get it out of his hand. Flashback w/ Rector to get Ulamog and put Faiths Fetters on Eye. Eventually land Elspeth and start doing some work, but he gets a Repeal to bounce the Moat and swing at Elspeth with Prime Time. Gets himself some more posts, we durdle a couple more turns before he gets another Repeal on the Fetters which he then uses to go get Emy which he casts and then bashes. G2 wasn't nearly so interesting.
1-7

R9 did what we do against RUG. More Recycle shenanigans.
2-7

I woulda dropped many rounds earlier to get on the road home, but one of our group made T16 and was in the hunt for T8 and a couple more were in the cash hunt, so we stuck it out.

I think I played pretty well for the most part. The only mistakes that I can think of all day were against D&T and I got that one. Friends hawking my games didn't have any observations about misplays. It was just one long, frustrating day.

My list, for posterity. I think I'm taking a break from Nic Fit for a while.
Lands
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold


Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thragtusk
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Scavaging Ooze
1 Priveval Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer


Spells
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy


Enchantments
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Recycle
1 Nether Void
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed


Sideboard
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Humility
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Angel of Despair
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Enlightened Tutor

[Tao]

This is what I would currently recommend for this Meta:


3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

A few notes:

- I am convinced that 4 Brainstorm is the only right choice

- the deck also wants 4 Jace and 3 Liliana; both Planeswalkers perform very well and do what the deck needs. Jace is imba and Liliana's Edict ability works very well to balance out the removal suit of Decay and Deed. And combined the two are almost unbeatable

- Abrupt Decay is awesome. You could play 2 MD and 2 SB or 3/1 or 4/0 but do not make the mistake and play less total. Whenever I had only three and played against anything with either (Delver of Secrets, Lord of Atlantis, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Warchief, Wild Nacatl) or (Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Enchantress Presence, Rest in Piece, Trinisphere) I felt silly for not having the fourth. It is the most versatile card ever and all around awesome.

- A SB with 4 FoW, 3 Negate, 2 Mindbreak Traps and 3 Surgicals combined with 7 MD Discard spells (+ Liliana) is a good way to stand your ground against Combo. I am very glad this idea came up in the recent discussion about Deadeye, props to whoever made it.

- Wurmcoil Engine is a great kill condition atm; both Jund and BUG have problems dealing with it. Compared to my last list I took out Primeval Titan, both Garruks and the 2 Creeping Tar Pits for 2 Wurmcoils, 1 Underground Sea, a 3rd Inquisition and a 3rd Liliana. The deck is a bit weaker now against Stoneblade and Miracles. But in this Meta I think this is the right call thoughI am not sure if it was right to remove Primeval Titan. Titan for 2 Tar Pits was a strong move.

[sherko7]

This is what I would currently recommend for this Meta:


3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

A few notes:

- I am convinced that 4 Brainstorm is the only right choice

- the deck also wants 4 Jace and 3 Liliana; both Planeswalkers perform very well and do what the deck needs. Jace is imba and Liliana's Edict ability works very well to balance out the removal suit of Decay and Deed. And combined the two are almost unbeatable

- Abrupt Decay is awesome. You could play 2 MD and 2 SB or 3/1 or 4/0 but do not make the mistake and play less total. Whenever I had only three and played against anything with either (Delver of Secrets, Lord of Atlantis, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Warchief, Wild Nacatl) or (Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Enchantress Presence, Rest in Piece, Trinisphere) I felt silly for not having the fourth. It is the most versatile card ever and all around awesome.

- A SB with 4 FoW, 3 Negate, 2 Mindbreak Traps and 3 Surgicals combined with 7 MD Discard spells (+ Liliana) is a good way to stand your ground against Combo. I am very glad this idea came up in the recent discussion about Deadeye, props to whoever made it.

- Wurmcoil Engine is a great kill condition atm; both Jund and BUG have problems dealing with it. Compared to my last list I took out Primeval Titan, both Garruks and the 2 Creeping Tar Pits for 2 Wurmcoils, 1 Underground Sea, a 3rd Inquisition and a 3rd Liliana. The deck is a bit weaker now against Stoneblade and Miracles. But in this Meta I think this is the right call thoughI am not sure if it was right to remove Primeval Titan. Titan for 2 Tar Pits was a strong move.

I'm loving this list. I'm still stuck on playing the GB list as I do not have the blue lands yet but will most probably transition to some BUG list soon. Regarding the 2 Damnations in your SB, is it better than 2 Engineered Plague? I think Plague may already solve our swarm aggro problems as they're usually the tribal lists anyway. Plus, I find myself wanting the removal sometimes even after playing Thragtusk, I know he leaves a body, but I'd rather my opponent get 2-for-1'd in trying to deal with him that playing a card like Damnation. Just my 2 cents :)

Also, not too convinced with Liliana yet, but I do get why playing it in BUG is better than playing it in the other color splashes. But I really like holding as close to a full-grip as possible, and I really feel like Garruk should take her place. Will try this list out though :)

[Tao]

- Exchanging Plague and Damnation is fair. Damnation is good against Jund, Aggro BUG and RUG which is why I chose it. Plague is good vs. Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Dredge and Balustrade Spy decks. Both are great against Maverick/Death and Taxes. That is your call, you could also run both and cut something else.

- When you test the list, tell me how often you wished to be able to GSZ for Primeval Titan (finding 2 Creeping Tar Pits). I am very unsure if cutting Primeval was the right choice or if the deck lacks gas now.

[Qweerios]

@Tao,

Why is there no Volrath's Stronghold in your BUG deck playing Primeval Titan? This confuses me, especially when I see 2 Phyrexian Towers in there. BUG Nic Fit decks are very threat light and being able to Thrag/Wurm/Witness loop should be your Prime Time priority. Maybe I am a little outdated there but when I came out with that tech a year ago, fetching the two towers occurred much more often than the two Treetops.

Also, you might want to look into Academy Ruins. It works great with EE, Wurmcoil, Nihil Spellbomb, Intuition/Loam, and even your favorite magi. LftL is also preeeettty good with Brainstorm/Jace/Lily.

[CRich3]

Anyone know how to record their MTGO videos? I want to start a stream for Rector Fit.

[yutang]

Hi

I'm interested in getting started with a BG Nic Fit deck. I'm typically a UW Miracles and a Storm player but have been recently playing Rock. Unfortunately I am terrible with it and suck at midrange in general. I am looking for a deck which would run differently to Storm and UW Miracles and would do well against the bad matchups of Storm/Miracles should my metagame shift. My metagame is pretty well developed with a large proportion of Blue. Decks typically seen are Canadian Thresh, Rock, Imperial Painter, Omnitell, Stoneblade (quite a few) and various BUG elements.

I have been looking at Qweerios' BG deck as a good starting point and want to go in that direction. I already have most of the pieces from my Rock deck and have been following this thread every now and then.

I have a few questions for NicFit players
1) Should I get into this deck given the information above?
2) What are the good and bad matchups of this deck?
3) Are there any suggested amendments to be made to Qweerios' BG deck of December 2012?
4) Why is everyone else splashing in BG? What benefits do the splashes provide?
5) Any other tips for getting into BG NicFit?

Thanks!

[HoneyT]

Holy shit. Quite a lot has happened in my absence. Random report time!

Finished 5-0 at my local Legacy tourney last night using the Punishing Fire list in my signature. Here's the run-down:

R1 vs U/W/R Miracle Blade 2-0
R2 vs RUG Delver 2-0
R3 vs Dredge 2-1
R4 vs Elves 2-0
R5 vs Goblins 2-0

Pretty diverse range of decks. Punishing Fire is still performing very well. Planning on running something very similar at SCG KC next weekend.

[sherko7]

- Exchanging Plague and Damnation is fair. Damnation is good against Jund, Aggro BUG and RUG which is why I chose it. Plague is good vs. Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Dredge and Balustrade Spy decks. Both are great against Maverick/Death and Taxes. That is your call, you could also run both and cut something else.

- When you test the list, tell me how often you wished to be able to GSZ for Primeval Titan (finding 2 Creeping Tar Pits). I am very unsure if cutting Primeval was the right choice or if the deck lacks gas now.

I was playtesting this on Cockatrice last night. I am starting to believe that Prime Time is still needed, even without 2 Creeping Tar Pits. I tried removing 1 U. Sea for 1 Creeping Tar Pit and 1 Liliana for 1 Prime Time as it will be a tiny bit harder to get the right mana anyway as I also have a habit of trying to fetch less duals as much as possible. Also traded out 1 Tower for 1 Volrath's Stronghold. Albeit the minor changes, the decks runs more smoothly for me now. Liliana was still very conditional. She's pretty good in matchups that she's good in, but bad when you're trying to save up spells for the right time. I find that I board her out a lot, and am thinking of cutting her out and probably add 1 more Thragtusk and 1 Scavenging Ooze in her place as a meta choice. Maelstrom Pulses could also take her place, but am not yet sure about that. Will continue testing :smile:


Hi

I'm interested in getting started with a BG Nic Fit deck. I'm typically a UW Miracles and a Storm player but have been recently playing Rock. Unfortunately I am terrible with it and suck at midrange in general. I am looking for a deck which would run differently to Storm and UW Miracles and would do well against the bad matchups of Storm/Miracles should my metagame shift. My metagame is pretty well developed with a large proportion of Blue. Decks typically seen are Canadian Thresh, Rock, Imperial Painter, Omnitell, Stoneblade (quite a few) and various BUG elements.

I have been looking at Qweerios' BG deck as a good starting point and want to go in that direction. I already have most of the pieces from my Rock deck and have been following this thread every now and then.

I have a few questions for NicFit players
1) Should I get into this deck given the information above?
2) What are the good and bad matchups of this deck?
3) Are there any suggested amendments to be made to Qweerios' BG deck of December 2012?
4) Why is everyone else splashing in BG? What benefits do the splashes provide?
5) Any other tips for getting into BG NicFit?

Thanks!

1) Other than OmniTell, the deck does 50-50 or better against the decks you mentioned above. At least, that's what I think.
2) The deck does well against midrange decks as well as most aggro decks. It struggles against most combo decks while it is capable of fighting through control decks at least 51-49 in our favor. :smile:
3) I like Qweerios' list, I started with it as well. But I tweaked my list to my liking and seems to do well in my meta (almost similar to yours, but we have a lot of burn). You can check my list in the sig. I cut Lili as it didn't work well with the deck too much. I want to hold answers, play mind games with my opponents. And often you'll be holding on to that GSZ as the board is stalled and all you're waiting for is to get enough mana to find Prime Time and break the stalemate. While I've almost never lost a game where my opponent left a Garruk PH unchecked.
4) Splashing red for Punishing Fire makes Nic Fit the best deck against all other forms of fair decks. It also gives you access to red blasts on the side against blue-based combo/control which the deck struggles against. Splashing blue gives you more ways to look for your answers, as well as the ultimate wincon: JTMS. Splashing white gives you Rector, the end-all-be-all answer to everything... As long as you get there on time. Some white splashes go the Rock path. I am not a fan of this last one, as I find the GB colors sufficient enough to answer most problems you should encounter.
5) PLAYTEST, PLAYTEST, PLAYTEST! The deck needs some getting used to in order to perform significantly well. You'll find the deck has plenty of flex spots while you're just starting out, cutting cards here and there. But as you play it more, it starts getting tighter and its all up to you on how you want to play against your meta. :smile:

Just my 2 cents!

[Arianrhod]

4) Splashing red for Punishing Fire makes Nic Fit the best deck against all other forms of fair decks. It also gives you access to red blasts on the side against blue-based combo/control which the deck struggles against. Splashing blue gives you more ways to look for your answers, as well as the ultimate wincon: JTMS. Splashing white gives you Rector, the end-all-be-all answer to everything... As long as you get there on time. Some white splashes go the Rock path. I am not a fan of this last one, as I find the GB colors sufficient enough to answer most problems you should encounter.


Just as a quick aside here, red splashes in general make Nic Fit into a fair-deck-shredding machine. PFire and Scapewish are both absurdly good against other fair decks. I would say that Scapewish is probably even more all-in on the enemy fair deck plan than PFire is, because at least PFire allows you to dedicate your sideboard to combo.

I didn't really come out of my stupor until around 3pm yesterday, so I don't really have much to say this morning =/

---------------------

A non-Nic Fit aside, for those who'd asked questions about the sedation dentistry:

Well, I'd say it worked. I took two pills before bed Monday night, then another an hour before the appointment, so I was a little wobbly but I was still okay to walk around and such. They took me back to the chair, and started giving me more sedatives. I vaguely remember some weird one that they crushed up and used a spoon to put under my tongue to dissolve. I think that they had to give me three doses of whatever that was before I was actually out. But at some point, I was sound asleep. I have a vague memory of them putting some kind of prop in my mouth to keep it open at some point during the process, but that's about it.

My dad has since informed me that we stopped at a gas/fast food hybrid place that's local to PA called Sheetz on the way home and that I requested hotdogs and chicken strips. The sole reason I know this happened is that there were chicken strips in the refrigerator last night and I was wondering how they got there. Apparently I ate two hotdogs and don't remember at all. Anyway, I got home at I think sometime around 11 or 12, and passed out until about 3/3:30. Then I was kind of groggy and half-there until about 8, at which point everything finally wore off.

So there's my "tournament report" for that whole mess. I remembered that when I'd asked if anyone had had it done before, I got a few people asking me to tell them how it went once I was through it....so there you go. Definitely highly recommend. The whole thing was a surreal experience for sure, but waking up with a clean mouth, sealed teeth, and a couple of filled cavities....and NOT having to consciously go through all that....well worth it.

Now I get like a week and a half of peace, and then it's wisdom teeth time. Woohoo -.-

[TheArchitect]

Hi

I'm interested in getting started with a BG Nic Fit deck. I'm typically a UW Miracles and a Storm player but have been recently playing Rock. Unfortunately I am terrible with it and suck at midrange in general. I am looking for a deck which would run differently to Storm and UW Miracles and would do well against the bad matchups of Storm/Miracles should my metagame shift. My metagame is pretty well developed with a large proportion of Blue. Decks typically seen are Canadian Thresh, Rock, Imperial Painter, Omnitell, Stoneblade (quite a few) and various BUG elements.

I have been looking at Qweerios' BG deck as a good starting point and want to go in that direction. I already have most of the pieces from my Rock deck and have been following this thread every now and then.

I have a few questions for NicFit players
1) Should I get into this deck given the information above?
2) What are the good and bad matchups of this deck?
3) Are there any suggested amendments to be made to Qweerios' BG deck of December 2012?
4) Why is everyone else splashing in BG? What benefits do the splashes provide?
5) Any other tips for getting into BG NicFit?

Thanks!



1. Well lets see, storm is obviously best against non-blue decks. UW is best against combo, and decent against midrange. So if the meta shifts to a combination of fair blue decks (esper/uw/RUG/BUG) and midrange decks, you wont have a "tool" to fight them. Nic fit luckily does do well here.

2. It depends if you splash a color or not, but nic fit generally beats mid range, tribal, aggro/burn, and blue fair decks. Esper, UW miracles, and BUG tempo are the only ones close to 50/50, and depending if you splash a color or what your SB looks like, even those matches can be improved.

Some rough estimations for GB for some popular decks:

UR Delver - 80/20
Burn - 75/25
Dredge - 70/30
Elves - 70/30
RUG - 70/30
Jund - 70/30
Fish/golbins - 60/40
Maverick - 60/40
Junk - 60/40
BUG delver - 55/45
UW (no RIP) - 55/45
Esper - 50/50
UW RIP - 45/55
S&T decks - 40/60
Reanimator - 40/60
Storm combo - 30/70
Belcher/spy combo - 30/70
MUD - 20/80
Turbo Eldrazi - 20/80


3. The list in Qweerios sig is definitly a good place to start. No major changes. Personally Id do some small changes but nic fit has a lot of flexibility so test it and see what you like and what you dont like.

4. GB is the most consistent but lacks raw power and additional SB hate cards. Theres nothing wrong with just GB though. White spashes are generally better vs Midrange and a bit better vs combo. Red demolishes fair and blue decks. Blue is better vs combo, but a bit less developed than the other colors.

5. Starting with just GB is a great idea. But test a lot. Also, get fast/comfortable with your tops. When I first started playing the deck most tournys I ended 1-1-3 or something stupid because it is such a grindy deck it always goes to time.

[Qweerios]

Hi

I'm interested in getting started with a BG Nic Fit deck. I'm typically a UW Miracles and a Storm player but have been recently playing Rock. Unfortunately I am terrible with it and suck at midrange in general. I am looking for a deck which would run differently to Storm and UW Miracles and would do well against the bad matchups of Storm/Miracles should my metagame shift. My metagame is pretty well developed with a large proportion of Blue. Decks typically seen are Canadian Thresh, Rock, Imperial Painter, Omnitell, Stoneblade (quite a few) and various BUG elements.

I have been looking at Qweerios' BG deck as a good starting point and want to go in that direction. I already have most of the pieces from my Rock deck and have been following this thread every now and then.

I have a few questions for NicFit players
1) Should I get into this deck given the information above?

Yes. When Pernicious Deed is a game-ender in your meta, Nic Fit is a good choice. It has favorable matchups against most of the non-combo field. It brings decks in a late-game zone where most are uncomfortable, and it does so surprisingly fast.

2) What are the good and bad matchups of this deck?

Anything affected by Deed or that cannot surmount certain high-cost cards are favorable. Decks that pack a lot of hard counterspells or have massive card advantage can be problematic (Cascade, Hymn, Ancestral Visions, unanswered Jace for example). The classical way to build a Nic Fit deck is to have a strong deck against any fair deck with maindeck bullets against dedicated control, tempo, burn, and midrange. This, in turn, comes at the price of forfeiting G1 against any combo deck. Sometimes you will win, but don't expect it in the slightest, that's not what this deck does or should aim to do because it becomes a diluted pile of junk once you try to.

3) Are there any suggested amendments to be made to Qweerios' BG deck of December 2012?

Innocent Blood and Liliana have lost a lot of their appeal lately. I will update it if you are interested. A fellow Nic Fitter asked me to review his BG deck yesterday so why not share.

4) Why is everyone else splashing in BG? What benefits do the splashes provide?

Splashing white or red is extremely easy for this deck. Most of the cards you want in those colors offer you different angles of attack against certain decks that you otherwise cannot access without the color splash (I.E.: REB/Pyro, Slaughter Games, Huntmaster, Teeg, Sigarda, Vindicate, Sun Titan, Angel of Despair). As long as your splash color does not interfere with how you build your manabase for your first few turns, there is no harm in having the additional tools against decks that don't thwart it or simply can't. BUG Nic Fit is a different story. Going for blue is far from being a splash when you want Brainstorm on T2, Jace on T3-4, and Negate/FoW postboard as those blue cards require a heavier commitment in blue. The major benefit of not splashing and staying pure GB is being able to play cards like Garruk Primal Hunter, Treetop Village, Liliana of the Veil, and Kodama of the North Tree more smoothly.

5) Any other tips for getting into BG NicFit?

Start with BG versions, it will give you a better understanding of how the deck functions at its core. Focus on getting good with Cabal Therapy, it will boost your game awareness and give you a lot of satisfaction. My personal advice is to stay away from BUG versions for a while because they are shit storms as far as linearity goes. I suggest building towards GBw because they offer the best GSZ targets and the best SB options against SnT-based decks.

Thanks!

Here's my latest GB Nic Fit list:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Others (9)
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp

[sherko7]

Finished 2-2 at a local weekly with the following list:

3 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse


Won against Goblins, UWR Aggro; lost against Shardless BUG Aggro, SnT. The losses were heartbreaking as they were misplays on my part really. I am planning to cut the DRS and get the Pulses into the main as they just suck in the board. The double Thragtusks were my best decision in the deck and it probably doesn't need the Finks anymore. I am not convinced about getting Acidic Slime back though, as I feel like 3 Decays 2 Pulses are good enough. I don't see enough lands I should be scared of anyway. :tongue:

[Kung Fu English]

Been a while since I posted. Legacy events have been few and far between recently.

We have one coming up tomorrow though and I think I will bring BUG Fit based on Tao's most recent list. I think it will be solid against most of the field and I expect a lot of top tier decks. RUG, BUG, maybe burn, maverick, probably reanimator, def show and tell.

My biggest concern though is going to be a local playing High Tide (Michael Tabler). He has Top 4d a few SCGs with his list and he's very good at it. I've almost gotten him a few times but he always comes out on top. Wondering if there are any SB changes I should consider for this or should I go a different direction entirely? I think a 1-of Ichneumenon Druid in the SB will help but I don't get to test much in town so most of my playtime comes at these small tournaments so adjustments are hard to make retroactively.

[Tao]

If High Tide is a concern and you play a deck with 4 GSZ go for Ichneumon Druid, that sounds solid. It will force him to spend resources to find bounce before (!) comboing.
But I am not sure if it is worth it for just one deck. With a list similar to the one in my sig you should be quite far ahead against Spiral Tide post board anyway. My SBing against Spiral Tide would be - (3 Explorer, 3 Deed, 3 Decay, 1 Thragtusk, 2 Wurmcoil), + (3 Surgical, 4 Force, 3 Negate, 2 Mindbreak Trap). And I also find it hard to find a card in the SB I would cut. Surgical is great with Reanimator, Sneak and Tell (And Spiral Tide) in the Meta and the blue count for Force is at 17 which is considered the "reliable minimum" so you can't replace one of those with a green card. I also wouldn't want to reduce the Damnation count, with RUG and Maverick in the Meta.

[Greenpoe]

Is Liliana really all that strong for you, Tao? I'm sure you're aware of how she's weaker here than in other decks (due to losing cards in our own hand, and dying to abrupt decay in a deck that is otherwise "Decay-proof", mainly), but more particularly, in your list, she's the only BB card and thus strains your mana base when you need to think about getting UU and GG as well. I'd suggest -3 cutting Liliana for flip-Garruk if you want some removal-planeswalker, or Garruk 1.0, just because ramp is good and 3/3 tokens are large. Tokens are nice because they'll protect your planeswalkers.

[Tao]

I agree with the concerns which is why my lists usually don't include her. But in this case Liliana has three big advantages which is why I am willing to play a card that is often only a 3-Mana Edict: She complements the removal suit for BUG against creatures like Tombstalker that Deed and Decay can't get, there are lots of Combo decks in the meta that she is solid against and she is an almost unbeatable tag team when combined with Jace TMS.

I have recently cut Garruk PH from the list. But this is just a Meta call because there are basically no Swords to Plowshares anywhere. If UW makes a comeback, I'd play some Garruks again and I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for adding them to the deck right now. But I wouldn't cut all Lilianas for them, maybe 1 Inquisition and 1 Liliana for 2 Garruks if you are worried that you are too light on win conditions.

[yutang]

@TheArchitect and @ Qweerios

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!

I will start off with the BG version of the deck and start playtesting. It sounds like a fun deck to play.

Qweerios, with regards to your list, do you feel like 11 creatures would be too few for a GSZ attrition deck?

[Qweerios]

@yutang,

No. I've played with as few as 7 creatures before and it works just fine. You want GSZ early for Explorer, and you usualy don't need to resolve more than 2-3 after that to have everything on the board to win.

[CRich3]

I finally got to play Scapewish this week. I went undefeated in a small local tournament. I added a second Primeval Titan because I didn't know what else to put there. I am thinking of adding different lands in my SB. This deck ramps really quick and to be able to kill someone with a 1/1 seems very viable with Kessig.

On the Rector version, not many people play Miracles anymore but since I've added Recycle and Thrun it is no longer a bad matchup.

[jimmi.rucka]

Hi guys, what do you think is the best side against show and tell decks? I have discard + O. Rings / Detention Spheres / angel of despairs but i want something else. I am running GBR Scapeshift list.

[venice]

Hey Guys!
Played Scapeshift for the first time today and went 5-1 at our local.

Matches were:

Dragon Stompy 2-1
UB Dreadstill 2-0
Burn 2-0
Omni Show 1-2
Belcher 2-0 (Yeah right ^^)
RUG Delver 2-1

The deck is so much fun to play! Thragtusk was my MVP all day long!

The Match against Belcher was obv very lucky. Game 1 he mulls to five on the play. I blind hit two Burning Wishes with Therapy and he never gets back into the game. Game 2 he keeps his 7, thinks a lot but passes the turn without playing anything. I Therapy him on my turn naming LED, thinking that he must he mana short not to off first turn, so he has either BW + LED or Belcher + LED. Turns out he had the Belcher + LED and lacked one mana to play it. Luckily he doesn't find a mana source next turn but draws into another charbelcher which makes my therapy flashback the following tu even better. I draw into more discard and he does not find anything relevant until the Mountains get very angry on him.
The Omni Tell Match was a little annoying since I could have won the third game if I had left one Thoughtseize in the Side to wish for in one critical situation. Anyway game 1 I got him with therapy on Show and Tell followed by double Slaughter Games on S&T and Burning Wish.

The other 4 Matches were quite easily. One situation against Burn came close, but Thragtusk saved the day.

All in all I am really thrilled playing the deck, as you can play so many fun cards like Huntmaster Thragtusk or Primeval Titan. As was stated earlier on this page, the Jund versions of Nic Fit really rape all kinds of fair decks. Problem being Show and Tell decks and other Combo.
Early discard + Slaughter Games seems to be the only way here, thus I could definitely see a fourth Slaughter Games in the Board.

What are your experiences concerning Combo?

[Arianrhod]

I took Scapewish into a small local event on Sunday, because of an expected metagame of heavy Esperblade.

I tried out a little technology. Since I was expecting a lot of slow, grindy games, I opted to shave 1x Sakura-Tribe for 1x Promise of Power. In the sideboard, I also cut the pair of Pithing Needles, which were a relic of the Jund era, for a 2nd copy of Promise of Power and the third copy of REB.

Round 1 I'm paired up against UWr Miracles, without RIP/Helm combo. Game one my deck decides it doesn't want to draw lands after I keep a perfectly acceptable hand. Instead, I draw all Explorers and no way to off them. He proceeds to Miracle for 5 angels, counters my attempt at a Deed, and then I die.

I board out the Burning Wishes because I know that he's going to keep Counterbalance in, and board the relevant wish targets in. I also shave Explorers and Therapies to incorporate the REBs and Slaughter Games. I remember Slaughtering his Jaces, and then he eventually dies through unknown means.

Game three I get a good mindfuck on him. I have 7 lands, one of which is a Tower. He'd just nigh-tapped out for Jace TMS, but with two available mana and Counter/Top online. I have Scapeshift in hand, and he's in lethal Shift range. I draw Huntmaster. I think for a second, and lead with Huntmaster. He checks his Top, and confirms it resolves. I then sacrifice the Wolf token to Tower for BB, and Scapeshift him. I liked this line because if he was sandbagging a Force, he likely would have Forced the Huntmaster, since I would have only had 3 mana up and I couldn't cast Scapeshift on that same turn.

Round 2 I go up against a traditional Deadguy (not my frequent car-mate). Game one we're both mana-borked (I'm screwed, he's flooded). I Wish for Pyroclasm to clear out his board, and later E.Wit it back to clear out again, because fuck Mirran Crusader. I eventually Shift for lethal, after he takes Avenger of Zendikar over Scapeshift with a Sculler. I rip the 7th land off the top to kill him. Weird note: I'm screwed for black really badly this game, which forces me to value-shift to fix my mana. Never ever ever forget that you can value-shift for perfect mana!

I don't board anything.

Game two is the classic "he gets me to lethal on board and I topdeck Scapeshift for the kill." Nothing interesting here.

Round 3 is vs BUGStill. My deck basically doesn't feel like playing Magic, and I help it along with that by misboarding. I play against this deck again in the top 4 (spoilers), so I don't remember all the details. I know that game one I just ran out of gas too quickly while he had a jace refueling him, and then game 2 I got horrifically mana flooded. Like, I would Top, and my Top would be like, Land, Land, Tribe-Elder. So I Tribe-Elder to shuffle, and my new Top is Land, Land, Veteran Explorer. Kill me.

Round 4: 12-post.

We're fairly sure that we want to gamble and ID to try to get both of us in the top 4, but we play it out for fun anyway.

Game one we both ramp like mofos. I Wish for Ruination but I can't slam it down, and pass with it in hand. He drops Kozilek into Candelabra into Primeval Titan into Repeal/replay Candleabra into Emrakul. K.

Game two I ramp up hyper fast and kill him on turn 3 or 4.

Game three is the nutty one. We're both doing our thing as usual. I've got a Primeval Titan with two active Valakuts at 4 mountains in play. He also has a BEB in hand, so I can't really use the Burning Wish->Ruination that I'm floating with Top. He drops a Primeval to get Glacial Chasm, and spams Glimmerposts to go to 39. I can't kill him because Chasm, so I get 1x Mountain and kill his Primeval. Okay, cool. I re-Top, Burning Wish is still there. Great. He untaps and drops Kozilek + Primeval Titan #2, tapping out in the process. I draw, pop Top to Therapy him just in case, and swing with Primeval. Two mountains + 2 Valakuts = a dead Kozilek. I then slam Wish into Ruination, leaving me with like 6 basics and him with an Island and a Forest; with a Primeval Titan apiece. I then Zenith up Eternal Witness, getting back Valakut and playing it for turn. he starts to dig out, aided by his Primeval Titan, but he can't get back into the game quickly enough, and I am the victor.

Karma then proceeds to reward us for an insane match, and we both luck out and slip into the top 4.

So, I'm paired up against BUGStill again in the top 4.

Game one, I have a decent start and I manage to run him out of gas by dropping bomb after bomb for three or four turns straight, all while sandbagging the shit out of my Avenger of Zendikar. Finally he runs out of gas, and I slam Avenger + land drop. He looks for an out and fails to hit one. I jokingly cast the Scapeshift I topdeck beforeturning 10 FURIOUS plants sideways.

Game two I have an -insane- start, fueled by Phyrexian Tower. He has no hand at all by like turn 3. He eventually starts to dig out of it, and Jace helps get him back into the game while I flood out. I run with the same plan as the last game: I wait until I'm pretty sure that he's out of answers, and then I drop Avenger. He like straight up telling me not to bother putting the tokens out because they aren't going to live, and I'm like, okay, he has a Deed and then Jace is just gonna tick up a few more turns and then I die. Cool.

As I pass the turn, I remember that there was still one more Therapy in my graveyard to flashback. And I have 14 fucking plants. #PUNTS.

Game three. I threw that game away, so now I have to calm down and get my head back into it. Okay, fine. We have a long, drag-out game, -again-. I try the Avenger plan, but he's gotten wise to me and Cliques it away. I jedi-mind-trick the hell out of him one turn, by popping a useless Top to play a Veteran Explorer. Like, my Top was literally Land, Land, Explorer. I have an active Valakut in play. He's half-talking to himself that he doesn't know if he should swing or not, because giving me lands. I make an off-hand remark about how it would suck to lose my Top. Like two seconds later, Creeping Tar Pit, Factory, and Snapcaster are all crashing into the red zone. I happily block Snap, take some damage, and get two basic mountains to kill his manlands....while getting fresh cards on top of my deck. Eventually I'm staring down lethal. I topdeck a Green Sun. There's a Wish in my graveyard that had gotten countered earlier. I have like 12 lands out. I cast Zenith for 3. He sees what I'm trying to do, and digs for the counterspell. He fails. I resolve my Zenith, noting while I'm searching that I have 5 or 6 mountains left in my deck. Okay, sweet. I win.

Except I had boarded the Eternal Witness out, like a fucking dumbass [note: for some reason he was bringing in Leyline of the Void against me, so I guess that's why I'd chosen to board it out. Still a horrible, horrible mistake].

To say I was tilted was an understatement.

So yeah. That was my event. At least I still doubled my entry fee, but blegh.

A closing note: SCG:DC. That top 16. Scapewish would FEAST on that top 16. While I'm not expecting the metagame to shift at Jupiter or Mythic anytime soon, it warms the cockles of my heart to see that much Esperblade and Miracles. I think that as far as the larger overall metagame is concerned, Scapewish is going to have its time in the sun again very soon.

Also: I'll be at GP Pittsburgh this weekend getting various-language foil Pernicious Deeds signed. I'll also be jamming 12post in legacy win-a-boxes all weekend, because if ever there was a deck to run in a win-a-box, 12post is it. So yeah. If anybody happens to be there, feel free to say hi, as always =)

[Zombie]

Game three is the nutty one. We're both doing our thing as usual. I've got a Primeval Titan with two active Valakuts at 4 mountains in play. He also has a BEB in hand, so I can't really use the Burning Wish->Ruination that I'm floating with Top. He drops a Primeval to get Glacial Chasm, and spams Glimmerposts to go to 39. I can't kill him because Chasm, so I get 1x Mountain and kill his Primeval. Okay, cool. I re-Top, Burning Wish is still there. Great. He untaps and drops Kozilek + Primeval Titan #2, tapping out in the process. I draw, pop Top to Therapy him just in case, and swing with Primeval. Two mountains + 2 Valakuts = a dead Kozilek. I then slam Wish into Ruination, leaving me with like 6 basics and him with an Island and a Forest; with a Primeval Titan apiece. I then Zenith up Eternal Witness, getting back Valakut and playing it for turn. he starts to dig out, aided by his Primeval Titan, but he can't get back into the game quickly enough, and I am the victor.

Was this a Titan trade? Because Valakut needs other Mountains in play so it wouldn't have triggered the Valakuts.

[Arianrhod]

Was this a Titan trade? Because Valakut needs other Mountains in play so it wouldn't have triggered the Valakuts.

Ah, but that's not how the layers work. If you have Valakut + 4 mountains in play, and you swing with a Primeval Titan (or set off an Explorer, for that matter), fetching 2 Mountains, the Valakut will see each mountain as they enter, and when it checks the number of mountains in play, Valakut will see that you have 6 mountains, and so each Mountain will trigger it.

[Zombie]

Yes yes. I know. That's why Scapeshift works in the first place. But you said:
"so I get 1x Mountain and kill his Primeval."
Previous mention is 4 Mountains on field. Fifth one entering doesn't work, you'd need to grab 2.

[Arianrhod]

Yes yes. I know. That's why Scapeshift works in the first place. But you said:
"so I get 1x Mountain and kill his Primeval."
Previous mention is 4 Mountains on field. Fifth one entering doesn't work, you'd need to grab 2.

Oh, I misunderstood. I think I got my mental streams crossed when I was writing the report. I had four mountains left after the Ruination when I swung (3 basics + one that I drew for turn). I had more than that out pre-Ruinate.

[MrIggins]

That 12-post game sounds insane.

How have you been liking the Avenger? It sounds like it won a few games. Is it better than a second Prime Time, or some other big threat? I like the shaving of Tribe-Elders, Promise of Power is a really interesting choice that more like a meta-call than anything, did it perform?

[Arianrhod]

That 12-post game sounds insane.

How have you been liking the Avenger? It sounds like it won a few games. Is it better than a second Prime Time, or some other big threat? I like the shaving of Tribe-Elders, Promise of Power is a really interesting choice that more like a meta-call than anything, did it perform?

Avenger has been fine so far. My only complaint with him is that I have to actually try to remember to sandbag a land-drop in hand for him, but that's a problem with playstyle, not with the card. Primeval Titan actually lacks a little when quickly killing someone late game. Avenger rarely gives your opponent more than 1 turn before they're dead. As compared to a 2nd Primeval....I feel that the 2nd Titan would be better if we had more utility lands for him to fetch. If you hit a 2nd Titan and your opponent isn't just dead to Valakut, something has gone seriously wrong. Meaning that if they have like a Leyline out, or something else that's stopping the Valakut kill, the 2nd Titan would be useless. I'd rather diversify the threat base. Additionally, if your Valakuts get Wasted or some such, Avenger means you still have a legit use for Scapeshift other than just thinning your deck.

2 Tribe-Elders felt perfect to me. I would not want the 3rd back -- that was too much. As for Promise of Power....I didn't get to resolve it once on the day. I saw it twice, IIRC, and it got snap-countered both times. Oh, wait, there was a third time -- where I didn't have the triple black to cast it =(

I mean, in theory it's a solid choice. Giving a hard ramp deck like Scapewish a draw-5 seems nutty. At the same time, triple black is a bit rough unless you're looking for it specifically -- though I didn't have any issues when I was just goldfishing the slot Friday night to experiment with the mana base. I think that the best thing I can say about the Promise slot is that it's experimental, and that if Wizards prints something that is obviously better / needs tested, the Promise slot will be the very first thing to cut to test out the new toy. Until Dragon's Maze, though, it'll be on evaluation notice. We'll see how it does going forward.

[MrIggins]

I've been playing around with the Scapewish deck (getting really close to being able to play it at an event soon, just 2 cards short) and I definitely felt 3 Elders was too many.

If you want a draw spell like that, is Ancient Craving reasonable? Obviously it's less powerful, but it's also WAY more castable by our deck without fetchlands.

I can see what you mean about Titan being a relatively slow kill. I'll try out the Avenger.

[Greenpoe]

Necrologia might be a better choice than Promise of Power, especially since Scapewish can happily run 2 Thragtusk and 3 Huntmaster, that's a lot of life to gain & a lot of cards to draw without the BBB cost of Promise.

[i_wish_i_had_money_cards]

Necrologia might be a better choice than Promise of Power, especially since Scapewish can happily run 2 Thragtusk and 3 Huntmaster, that's a lot of life to gain & a lot of cards to draw without the BBB cost of Promise.

That card actually looks pretty sweet. Other pros: 1) it's about 50 cents, 2) it comes in Exodus. Hmm....

Edit: ...It's like a one shot Necro...

[Star|Scream]

Necrologia might be a better choice than Promise of Power, especially since Scapewish can happily run 2 Thragtusk and 3 Huntmaster, that's a lot of life to gain & a lot of cards to draw without the BBB cost of Promise.

Since this is a sorcery-speed deck I'm concerned about the end step clause of Necrologia. Most of the time when you cast Promise of power you will have more than 5 lands out, so you *should* be able to play some of what you draw immediately.

I got to live the dream of casting Promise in legacy against u/w stoneblade last night on MWS. He's got a Jace, Batterskull, Jitte, SFM, and Snapcaster out against my empty board. I drop an avenger with a land drop and he supreme verdicts (mistake?) I get a deed to resolve and take out his batterskull and jitte (he only left 2 lands open and couldn't bounce batterskull. Mistake?) I get the promise to resolve at 8 life and go to 3. I pass the turn, and he flashes in a snapcaster, casts another jitte, and attacks for 2.

My turn I'm at 1 life and he's at 36 with 2 jitte counters. I cast a feeler top to bait a counterspell. It resolves. I cast burning wish. It resolves. I cast scapeshift with 2 valakuts already out. It resolves. I grab 8 mountains for (if I'm multiplying correctly) 48 damage.

[drfontaine]

Devastation FIT!

3 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Devastation Tide
3 Living Wish
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Vedalken Shackles

1 Bayou
5 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Magus of the Future
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 Rapid Hybridization
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

Figured id post my latest experiment for those whos intrested ;) Although it's becoming a very different take on a regular nic fit list i suppose it's still pretty similair shell so figured i'd post in this thread anyways, and especially since most ideas came from this thread and from alot of playtest with the recent deadye list.

Perhpas most of you will instantly dismiss it considering it includes devTide and RapidHybridization in SB ;).

I figure i'd need to play more vs different tempo and midrange decks since they pose the greatest threat to this list. I have however played lots vs Jund lists where results been quite even, i've had amazing results vs the control deck to beat atm IE helm/rip miracle, and vs the common combo decks its exceptional except from mayb show/tell where it seems to be somewhat disadvantage. These are among the decks i've played lots of games vs.

I'd figure id just post some general experiences i've had with the deck.

Tide in opposing player end step is such a strong move since you can lock down their hand with ur CB/top in your turn, with the extra benefit of cabal synergy for their greatest threat, this i've found to be especially gamebreaking in CB/top mirrors where you can return his lock and lock him down with your own, simply winning the game ;). Living wish for elendra is also simply WIN in lots of control mirrors, just as shes complete win if you manage to delay combo decks long enough which aint superhard with 4 force/cb/cabal(sometimes also spellstutter ;)) and with veteran mana is not always that much of an issue ;) Bouncing her for infinite counters vs noncreatures unless they can prevent GY via jace/tide is complete lockdown. Magus of the future has also made huge impact with his apperarance in some matchups, and with the protection from cb/top he simply wins!

The thing with Tide compared to terminus is that it does not restrain ur mana, it pitches to force which is absolutely huge considering miracle cards tend to clunk your hand, and it just has a really broad use and with this deck synergizes so well with both cabal and CB, on top of it it also increases bluecount which is a neverending issue ). The same reasoning goes for rapidhybridization :) its a blue card, no constrains on mana, and the token is easilly handled by either Tide or deed. In some matchups aggro decks also really tend to avoid hitting ur explorer, IE decks including Confidant, in these cases in order to get some value of the token they have to attack with it into explorer which is exactly what you want to activate your best answer to creature decks, Vedalken Shackles.


Thrun however i never really wished for as much and i'm uncertain of his slot in SB, perhaps i'd rather play with Abyssal persectuor as a way to slow down creaturedecks, also costing GG is annoying when whishing is another G mana. The deck still needs more testing vs Tempo and this is where i'd like to find another spot in my wishboard for, altough sideboard is really anticreature/tempo.

Another fear for the deck is it's way of handling manlands :/. I hvnt still had the opportunity to playtest vs various manland decks like bugstill or simply uwlands, perhaps i need to find a better solution vs those decks. Although CB at least is a huge counter to loam :).

Conserning SB its not exactly superpolished as of yet, altough i always enjoy my pithing needles since they are pretty much the only fast enough hate vs some combodecks (sneak/grisel), they are multifunctional, and in this list also is an answer to manlands which frighten me.

I aint devoting much of SB for GYhate since i consider my matchup vs reanimator and tinfin to be prettyfreewinish, and dredge to fight through various RIP decks seems unlikely, and the fact that nic fit always had an easy way of handling bridges.

I love playing with cabal since it reminds me of my former life as a professional poker player, the way it interracts with handreading :).

Feel free to dismiss the list as absolute junk :). I'd gladly appreciate it !

[Tao]

Devastation Tide is not getting rid of things and that is the real problem. I sometimes already struggle after just mulliganing once and that is only one card. If you Tide instead of Deed that are (virtually) more cards. The deck doesn't magically win just because it stabilized at one point.
The combo with CB is nice but that is also a 4-card-combo (Top + Counterbalance + Tide on Top + stuff on top that matches the CC of the opponent's permanents) that dies to Abrupt Decay.

@BUG: Re-added Garruks for 1 Lili and 1 IoK.

[Arianrhod]

Devastation Tide is not getting rid of things and that is the real problem. I sometimes already struggle after just mulliganing once and that is only one card. If you Tide instead of Deed that are (virtually) more cards. The deck doesn't magically win just because it stabilized at one point.
The combo with CB is nice but that is also a 4-card-combo (Top + Counterbalance + Tide on Top + stuff on top that matches the CC of the opponent's permanents) that dies to Abrupt Decay.

@BUG: Re-added Garruks for 1 Lili and 1 IoK.

I agree with this. The mass bounce is fine in some circumstances, and it's nice that it pitches to Force. But generally speaking, you want to just kill their stuff. You don't want them to just play it again next turn -- probably with lands that you gave them. I can see Tide being fine against decks that don't run a lot of basics, but still have heavy board presences -- but something like Maverick, let's say, with 3-4 basics -- you'll reset their board, and they'll just drop it all again. You want a more permanent answer IMO.

[drfontaine]

I agree with this. The mass bounce is fine in some circumstances, and it's nice that it pitches to Force. But generally speaking, you want to just kill their stuff. You don't want them to just play it again next turn -- probably with lands that you gave them. I can see Tide being fine against decks that don't run a lot of basics, but still have heavy board presences -- but something like Maverick, let's say, with 3-4 basics -- you'll reset their board, and they'll just drop it all again. You want a more permanent answer IMO.

Fine then. Although its not like you desperatly need to counter everything they try to recast in order to manage to stabilize, your win condidtion vs creature decks is obv vedalken anyways, unless they can refill with like 3-4 creatures its totally fine, alot of creatures for maverick also cost 1 wich is autocounter by top, else you just need a two on top but fine. They do not either have infinite ADecay, its just like this bad claim CB decks supposed to be dead just because they decided to release a card that actually reliably manages to break the lock. You play 4 CB, and if they decide to Decay ur CB they cant decay ur shackles which is your actual win condition vs those decks anwyays.

Maverick is an easy matchup preboard from my experience anyways since their clock is just way to slow for me to stabilize. Calling it a 4 card combo seems weird since all cards xcept perhaps Tide is really strong on their own.

Also i devoted most of SB in order to manage the creature decks which is Nic Fit original strong point, IE its ez to postboard organize strong creaturematchups. However from my testing it's not at all as bad as i thought it would be. Vedalken with Explorer is really strong imo.

Anyways thanks for input!

[Kich867]

Fine then. Although its not like you desperatly need to counter everything they try to recast in order to manage to stabilize, your win condidtion vs creature decks is obv vedalken anyways, unless they can refill with like 3-4 creatures its totally fine, alot of creatures for maverick also cost 1 wich is autocounter by top, else you just need a two on top but fine. They do not either have infinite ADecay, its just like this bad claim CB decks supposed to be dead just because they decided to release a card that actually reliably manages to break the lock. You play 4 CB, and if they decide to Decay ur CB they cant decay ur shackles which is your actual win condition vs those decks anwyays.

Maverick is an easy matchup preboard from my experience anyways since their clock is just way to slow for me to stabilize. Calling it a 4 card combo seems weird since all cards xcept perhaps Tide is really strong on their own.

Also i devoted most of SB in order to manage the creature decks which is Nic Fit original strong point, IE its ez to postboard organize strong creaturematchups. However from my testing it's not at all as bad as i thought it would be. Vedalken with Explorer is really strong imo.

Anyways thanks for input!


In what world is bouncing all of someone's stuff better than destroying all of it with Deed? You can't run Shackles and deed together, there's enough anti-synergy there to choke a goat out.

[drfontaine]

In what world is bouncing all of someone's stuff better than destroying all of it with Deed? You can't run Shackles and deed together, there's enough anti-synergy there to choke a goat out.

Well the whole point was to improve the combo mu but still play the explorer/cabal engine. Playing CB/vedalken with deed seems really antisynergistic.

Guess however that this deck is rather devlopemental and perhaps should belong in those threads instead, afterall its missing lots of core pieces of regular nic fit. I feel however after lots of testing rather satisfied with the list, and perhaps its biggest issue is its full controllish nature and the fact it after establishing control takes awhile to finish games, which might not be as satisfying, although i don't really mind.

[conboy31]

You can't run Shackles and deed together, there's enough anti-synergy there to choke a goat out.
In the current format deeds and shackles together isn't too bad. Deed is often used at 2 mana. Additionally, the most common way to beat a shackle without destroying it is to over extend. I have not used the pair together in nic fit, but have had minimal issues in more blue centric decks.

[Nithkar]

Hey guys.

I've recently have brought my attention to legacy and decided to go for Nic Fit. Initially i thought of building the rector version, but by reading about the meta-game nowadays I've started to think that a red splash would be better, especially because Red Elemental Blast and Slaughter Games. I really love the last one. But, since Scapewish don't let you have a combo hate sideboard (at least not a optimized one), i decided for the Punishing Nic Fit.

And when i was studying this build, i came across the inclusion of living wish on this list. And although i thought it doesn't had space, due Recurring Nightmare not being used anymore (aside rector), i was tempted to go for 2 of them in my main list, for the purpose of getting Magus of the Blood Moon and the lands. So it ended up the following, but i still have some considerations i would like your help with:

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Living wish

SB:

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Thoughtsize
2x Slaughter Games
2x Leyline of Sanctity/Layline of the Void
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Karakas

What do you think? As for the considerations, here they are. I know its an under-usage of living wish. I truly don't know if it's worth it, perhaps the addition of Garruk would be better. Sencond one would be DRS x Scavenging Ooze: i am beginning to think the first one is better, but i still see the second one more often in deck lists, so i cant be sure for certain. Third and final one is that I'm thinking of loosing titan for some other bomb. I really don't think he's that good on this list, especially with living wish on the board. I thought of Wolfir Silverheart, but i would realy like another flying bomb, one "like" Sigarda. The problem is that i can't think of any. Last, how is Recurring Nightmare playing nowadays? Is it only playable on Rector?

General help about the decklist is also welcome guys, and thanks in advance.

[Kich867]

Hey guys.

I've recently have brought my attention to legacy and decided to go for Nic Fit. Initially i thought of building the rector version, but by reading about the meta-game nowadays I've started to think that a red splash would be better, especially because Red Elemental Blast and Slaughter Games. I really love the last one. But, since Scapewish don't let you have a combo hate sideboard (at least not a optimized one), i decided for the Punishing Nic Fit.

And when i was studying this build, i came across the inclusion of living wish on this list. And although i thought it doesn't had space, due Recurring Nightmare not being used anymore (aside rector), i was tempted to go for 2 of them in my main list, for the purpose of getting Magus of the Blood Moon and the lands. So it ended up the following, but i still have some considerations i would like your help with:

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Living wish

SB:

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Thoughtsize
2x Slaughter Games
2x Leyline of Sanctity/Layline of the Void
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Karakas

What do you think? As for the considerations, here they are. I know its an under-usage of living wish. I truly don't know if it's worth it, perhaps the addition of Garruk would be better. Sencond one would be DRS x Scavenging Ooze: i am beginning to think the first one is better, but i still see the second one more often in deck lists, so i cant be sure for certain. Third and final one is that I'm thinking of loosing titan for some other bomb. I really don't think he's that good on this list, especially with living wish on the board. I thought of Wolfir Silverheart, but i would realy like another flying bomb, one "like" Sigarda. The problem is that i can't think of any. Last, how is Recurring Nightmare playing nowadays? Is it only playable on Rector?

General help about the decklist is also welcome guys, and thanks in advance.

You know what, I love this, I haven't actually looked at it, but I was thinking yesterday that Kessig Wolf Run would be godlike in Jund-Fit as "The thing besides scapewish to bring to the table". You now turn all your little dudes into -serious- ass threats.

Brief overview, don't like DRS. I would drop for tribe elder. That's about it.

[Viridia]

Quick & Small report.
Just went 3-1 with BG Nic-Fit in a MTGO Daily.

Here's the list:

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
3 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

17 Creatures
1 Cloudthresher
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Rampaging Baloths
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer



21 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)

1 Acidic Slime
1 Ifh-Biff Efreet
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse



R1 Dredge
G1 He mulls to 4 and i can discard his LED turn 1 in a hand of: LED, Breaktrough, Dredger, Faithless Looting. I keep discarding his discardoutlets and eventually kill him
G2 I don't find any hate in a mulligan and keep a hand with Sakura but end up losing horribly
G3 Still no hate, but i can grind him out because he didnt hit any Bridge from Below in the first half of his deck.

R2 RUG Delver
G1 I die from Delver Beats + Mongoose
G2 I manage to win on the back of an early Deranged Hermit.
G3 He goes T2 Delver, T3 Delver, T4 Delver. I had answers for the first 2 while my top only gave me 3 Lands - fetch - 3 lands while being beaten by a Delver. Got killed by Lightningbolts the turn before i could drop a Tusk.

R3 GW Enchantress
G1 I win it on the back of early discard keeping him off draw effects.
G2 I loose horrible to a Sigil of the Empty Throne.
G3 I can discard an Enchantress' Presence and Pulse the 2nd one before he got to draw anything and drop a Engineered Plague on Druids, pretty much preventing him from drawing cards and grinding out a win

R4 Elves
G1 I have the removal for his Elves and beat him down with Rampaging Baloths.
G2 I don't hit any hate and die to a T4 Natural Order -> Craterhoof
G3 I keep a hand with 3 removal spells and a Witness. I keep his most scary dudes off the table untill he Zeniths up a Chameleon Colossus, but i counter it by dropping Rampaging Baloths and topdecking 2 fetchlands in a row like a boss :D



Deranged Hermit was great in the 2 games i saw him. Rampaging Baloths was a good finisher, that finished things up quickly and got me some more out of a late-game Explorer topdeck.
Haven't battled any Ux Control decks, and never drew Thrun vs RUG, so can't say anything about him or about the Ifh-Biff in the side.
If i see more Dredge i might pack Leyline of the Void, however Extirpate is just so amazing vs Reanimator/Tin Fins aswel as being not dead vs Control.

[Tao]

One thing that always makes me facepalm a bit is when people run Extirpate over Surgical Extraction. Against most decks it is the same card except that you can cast Surgical for free.

That mana makes such a difference because the decks against which you board that kind of card can usually kill you on turn one or two. So you can tap out for your discard/ramp and still be able to Extract them. Being forced to keep one black mana until you need the card slows you down a lot and telegraphs the card. Split Second is nice to have but not worth a mana. Another play that doesn't work with Extirpate is turning Cabal Therapy into Duress by using Surgical on their Cantrip on turn 1 on the draw to know their hand and not get killed (for example against TES or Sneak and Tell).

[TheArchitect]

One thing that always makes me facepalm a bit is when people run Extirpate over Surgical Extraction. Against most decks it is the same card except that you can cast Surgical for free.

That mana makes such a difference because the decks against which you board that kind of card can usually kill you on turn one or two. So you can tap out for your discard/ramp and still be able to Extract them. Being forced to keep one black mana until you need the card slows you down a lot and telegraphs the card. Split Second is nice to have but not worth a mana. Another play that doesn't work with Extirpate is turning Cabal Therapy into Duress by using Surgical on their Cantrip on turn 1 on the draw to know their hand and not get killed (for example against TES or Sneak and Tell).

I am much more fond of Extirpate. Infact I dont really think any deck without Snapcaster mage or a tempo plan can justify running surgical. Not being able to be countered, responded to with random stuff or brainstormed in response to prevent lose of card in hand is huge since the matchup is helps most with is miracles, storm or reanimator. Surgical obviously better against dredge, but both cards are actually pretty ineffective against dredge unless you draw a hand with like 3 of them.

The only matchup where having the turn 0 surgical is needed is the hermit druid combo deck.

[Viridia]

Usually i'd agree with you and run Surgical, however i've seen a fair amount of TinfFins and reanimator around on mtgo, and they can just win through Surgical.

[Bobmans]

nic fit
•to be really bad-mood cause you can't get a cigarette to fulfill your need for nicotine, a nic-fit is a very serious situation when one doesn't want to interfere with the nic-fitter during the pursuit of a cigarette... or else someone might get hurt.

If I don't get a cigarette soon I'm gonna start nic-fittin'.
◦See more words with the same meaning: to become angry, go crazy, freak out.
◦See more words with the same meaning: to crave.

[bruizar]

In what world is bouncing all of someone's stuff better than destroying all of it with Deed?

In a world with Sword of War and Peace, Stormseeker, Windfall (banned), Runeflare Trap, and many other cards. Heuristics like that cause innovation to stifle.

[Arianrhod]

I lost an enormous number of games to Sneak/Show, OmniShow, and High Tide before I realized that Split Second is actively critical. The free factor of Surgical is wonderful, and definitely relevant in some matchups (Dredge, Breakfast, Spy, and a few others come to mind), but at the end of the day, for what role I want the card to fulfill, I'll take Extirpate over Surgical in most metas.

Note that I agree that blindly choosing Extirpate over Surgical is patently wrong. Everyone should always rebuild their sideboard before every event, and critically evaluate every option to make sure that it's where you want to be. I'm not a fan of jamming Extirpate for Extirpate's sake, in the same way that I'm (still) not a fan of Brainstorm "because Brainstorm." It's not an argument in-itself.

-----------

I'll be jamming at least one or two Win-a-boxes with Rector this weekend (and I think Steve is probably going to borrow it for a couple while I'm 12posting). To that end, I updated the board for the expected meta, which is to say a ton of combo and Esperblade.


2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Batterskull

2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void

1 Humility
1 Nether Void

2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap


Pretty close to what I've been running, with just a few minor tweaks. I'm exceptionally happy with the control mirror package. The planeswalkers help out enormously with the actual winning-in-time problem, and they're huge trumps for the midrange matchup, too. There are few things Jund is as angry to see across from them as Elspeth. Somewhere along the way I realized that there are two essential classifications of planeswalker:

Value
Combat

Value walkers include Jace, Liliana, and most commonly played options (Domri would also count here). They usually draw cards, filter cards, or discard cards; and they frequently have a creature-removal option on them as well.

Combat walkers are your Elspeth K-E, Sorin LoA, Garruk Primal Hunter, and so on. They usually involve making tokens and enhancing creatures.

It just so happens that one of the best ways to combat a value-planeswalker is with a combat-planeswalker. Jace loses to Elspeth and Sorin. So does Liliana. The value-walkers can't keep up with the combat-walkers on their own. Esperblade needs to keep Elspeth down via a combination of Jace and cards from their deck (Swords, Snapcasters, Clique beats, etc). By contrast, we don't need to use our resources to protect Elspeth and Sorin -- we can be aggressively building board state while our opponents are focused on them. This is huge for us.

Batterskull overperformed the last time I ran the deck, so it's back for another go.

ETs help fetch whatever we need fetched vs combo matchups, but I also like to board in 1 copy vs control decks as a aid in finding Batterskull late or Top early. ET for Deed helps vs aggro.

Crypt and Chalice are the standard early-game ET bullets for graveyard combo and Chrome Mox / LED combo, respectively. Chalice on 1 is a beating vs Elves, if you're not in the position to ET for Deed instead.

Nether Void and Humility are the standard stone-cold-killers in the matchups where they're relevant.

Leyline and Mindbreak are the standard 5-cards of t0 protection. Leyline is also strong vs Jund decks that want to Hymn you into the ground.

So yeah. We'll see how my win-a-boxes go =)

[Kich867]

In a world with Sword of War and Peace, Stormseeker, Windfall (banned), Runeflare Trap, and many other cards. Heuristics like that cause innovation to stifle.

No, bad cards make people make bad decks that are way less good at doing something that a better deck already does better.

That was definitely a set of the worst examples one could give to justify using Devastation Tide over Pernicious Deed. Because if you use Deed, you don't have to use any of those amazingly shitty cards. Windfall being the exception, and even then, kinda less than stellar and similar effects exist.

[Bobmans]

Hey guys.

I've recently have brought my attention to legacy and decided to go for Nic Fit. Initially i thought of building the rector version, but by reading about the meta-game nowadays I've started to think that a red splash would be better, especially because Red Elemental Blast and Slaughter Games. I really love the last one. But, since Scapewish don't let you have a combo hate sideboard (at least not a optimized one), i decided for the Punishing Nic Fit.

And when i was studying this build, i came across the inclusion of living wish on this list. And although i thought it doesn't had space, due Recurring Nightmare not being used anymore (aside rector), i was tempted to go for 2 of them in my main list, for the purpose of getting Magus of the Blood Moon and the lands. So it ended up the following, but i still have some considerations i would like your help with:

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Living wish

SB:

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Thoughtsize
2x Slaughter Games
2x Leyline of Sanctity/Layline of the Void
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Karakas

What do you think? As for the considerations, here they are. I know its an under-usage of living wish. I truly don't know if it's worth it, perhaps the addition of Garruk would be better. Sencond one would be DRS x Scavenging Ooze: i am beginning to think the first one is better, but i still see the second one more often in deck lists, so i cant be sure for certain. Third and final one is that I'm thinking of loosing titan for some other bomb. I really don't think he's that good on this list, especially with living wish on the board. I thought of Wolfir Silverheart, but i would realy like another flying bomb, one "like" Sigarda. The problem is that i can't think of any. Last, how is Recurring Nightmare playing nowadays? Is it only playable on Rector?

General help about the decklist is also welcome guys, and thanks in advance.

I really like this Punishing Fire variant of Nic Fit. I am currently doing some research and build a version of this variant. I am thinking of including both DRS and Ooze as a one-off. I would like to run only one huntmaster and I really like Garruk Relentless. Also I don't like Broodmate Dragon to much. Viridia made a solid suggestion for a replacement: Rampaging Baloths. turning lategame veterans and fetchlands into 4/4 tokens. Also I am thinking about including Borborygmos Enraged (maybe with the support of Rec Nightmare) and one life from the loam. The 8 CMC is huge, but when he hits the table and you start dredging with Top's you can shoot down the opponent pretty fast. This is just theorycrafting. Also the interaction with loam and baloth to create a huge army of tokens.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hey guys, all your crazy "research" and "realizations" aside, the Jund list really should be credited to HoneyT.

[Arianrhod]

Hey guys, all your crazy "research" and "realizations" aside, the Jund list really should be credited to HoneyT.

The Punishing Fire version is jointed accredited to HoneyT and Tao in my mind -- they both refined it at about the same time. I don't think anyone here was challenging that -- just because HoneyT and Tao refined PFire to the point of playability doesn't mean that other people can't learn about it and pick it up later, making their own tweaks to it.

[Tao]

The Punishing Fire version was, if I recall correctly, initially made by Rabrab and me more than one year ago. I got a PM from Rabrab with a list, tweaked it a bit to my personal taste and had time for a ML trial:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7600&iddeck=55208

[Nithkar]

Hey guys, all your crazy "research" and "realizations" aside, the Jund list really should be credited to HoneyT.

I'm sorry if what i said seemed like i was saying the punishing fire Nic Fit is my doing. I would never do so, and saying something like that was never my intention. If it sounded like that, i honestly apologize. In fact, most of what i saw about this version and about the Nic Fit in general was within this tread, and my intention was only to get help from the people that originally thought of this deck to build up my deck in a way that can put up the best game possible.

[Megadeus]

Has anyone thought of using Imperial RecruiterAnd the changing up your fatty suite to make him awesome? For example as a 7 drop you can run Hornet Queen!

[Kich867]

Has anyone thought of using Imperial RecruiterAnd the changing up your fatty suite to make him awesome? For example as a 7 drop you can run Hornet Queen!

I don't see the point of that in the face of Fierce Empath who is both green and cheaper and serves the same purpose.

[Megadeus]

Fair point. Empath puts on top of library though (it might be relevant). But for the most part you have a point lol

[Kich867]

Fair point. Empath puts on top of library though (it might be relevant). But for the most part you have a point lol

It goes directly into your hand.

[TheArchitect]

I actually just played Punishing fire tonight for the first time and enjoyed it. It was just at the causal 5$ legacy FNM with like 16 people. Usually theres 30+ people at this weekly event, and its alot of the jupiter/mythic crowd, but I think Cornell must be on break or something because alot of the usual competitive people weren't there. I got 3rd, only losing to TES with this list:

23 Lands:
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
2x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura Tribe Elder
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Primeval Titan

1x Garruk, Primal Hunter

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtsize
2x Slaughter Games
3x Carpet of Flowers
Xx Meta dependent cards I wouldnt run elsewhere

I was happy with the list, Id change the SB around alot for a different event, but the MD I liked a lot. Garruk, thrun, Silverheart, and Wolf Run were awesome, some combo of those cards won most of my games. It nice being able to play stuff like 4 PFires, 3-4 Decays, 1-2 Pulses, with REBs and more discard in the SB (in contrast with scapeshifts tight list).

[litenkatt]

nice to see some punishing fire discussion going. I haven't played legacy since forever feels like, there has barley been any legacy tournaments around here and seems like lots of people quit playing too, or having a break..

Anyways I've mostly been running the rector version w/ moat etc but tomorrow we actually have a tournament which im gonna attend to. Will be playing punishing fire, despite the fact half of the people in the room will be on combo decks of sorts. All my cards in the sideboard are for combo decks so

CREATURES (13)
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
INSTANTS (6)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
PLANESWALKERS (2)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk Relentless
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (23)
1 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Slaughter Games
4 Duress

I'm still not sold on the Broodmate Dragon. To be fair I just haven't tested him enough to make an honest decision

Might do a report on sunday evening or monday

[Nithkar]

I'm still not sold on the Broodmate Dragon. To be fair I just haven't tested him enough to make an honest decision

Bobmans has suggested Rampaging Baloths as a replacement, which i think is a great idea. But although i think it would be very good, i fear losing the only flying body on the deck. Is it just me? Also, i want to be convinced on Prime Titan on this deck. I love the card, and i know there is Grove of Burnwillows and Kessig to fetch, but i can't stop thinking that I don't find it half as good as fetching two Creeping Tar Pits (as in the deadeye build you guys developed). Am I wrong on this?

[Zombie]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241832&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=10677&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5263&type=card

[Bobmans]

..

Hah, exactly that.

I think PrimeTime should stay in the 60. it also makes cards like Bojuka Bog optional. Anyway, Aside from just being 2x 4/4 flying does Broodmate Dragon serves a role specifically performed by this creature, or is it just because you would want to have an extra out? Or is it to be able to block opponents flyers? There are alternatives, but if I would want to replace Broodmate permanently, I would want to fill the possible gap when its missing.

Being able to create an army of 4/4 tokens mostly mean that the opponent having flyers becomes irrelevant. Unless he can outrace you when you're low on life.

[Tao]

You want to play ~two 6-drops anyway just for curve reasons. And both are good ones because they have a high power level and they can't be killed one for one by the opponent. The thought behind the split of 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Broodmate Dragon is to have one big GSZ target for the long game and one for an immediate impact.

If you play against a Jace control deck a Broodmate Dragon probably won't cut it. They will Swords it, then Snapcaster Swords it. Or Swords the original, then use Jace to bounce the Token. Primeval Titan hits Jace from a different angle and it doesn't matter if they kill it (they will). If you get two Groves it will put you ahead on mana and they will have a much harder time defending their Jace.

Broodmate is better against decks that put you under pressure. If you are up against 2 Delvers or a 6/7 Goyf or a Tombstalker or a bunch of Goblins then Primeval won't give you the immediate impact that you need but Broodmate can immediately stabilize the board. Broodmate truly shines in these situations, I'd love to have such a GSZ target for my BUG list.

[TheArchitect]

On the topic of 6drops that Jund nic fit should be running, apparently this is going to be the Gruul Champion in dragons maze (stole from MTGS, who got it from Pax east):


"Ruric-That, the Unborn 4GR, mythic, Legendary Creature - 6/6 vigilance reach. Must attack. Whenever anyone plays a noncreature, they take 6."

Card Image here (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BGD2cuMCMAA7FoZ.jpg:large)

[Bobmans]

You want to play ~two 6-drops anyway just for curve reasons. And both are good ones because they have a high power level and they can't be killed one for one by the opponent. The thought behind the split of 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Broodmate Dragon is to have one big GSZ target for the long game and one for an immediate impact.

If you play against a Jace control deck a Broodmate Dragon probably won't cut it. They will Swords it, then Snapcaster Swords it. Or Swords the original, then use Jace to bounce the Token. Primeval Titan hits Jace from a different angle and it doesn't matter if they kill it (they will). If you get two Groves it will put you ahead on mana and they will have a much harder time defending their Jace.

Broodmate is better against decks that put you under pressure. If you are up against 2 Delvers or a 6/7 Goyf or a Tombstalker or a bunch of Goblins then Primeval won't give you the immediate impact that you need but Broodmate can immediately stabilize the board. Broodmate truly shines in these situations, I'd love to have such a GSZ target for my BUG list.

Perhaps Hornet Queen provides a nice solution to the given situations. Only thing is that it only has a total of 6 power compared to 8 from broodmate dragon. It can chump block anything on the board and it can even help to minimize the devestation an Emrakul puts us in, saccing 4 tokens, blocking with the hornet and saccing some lands or whatever.

edit: kessig wolf run makes a nice combo with the deathtouch ability. It would only require to do 1 damage to any blocking creature and the rest to the opponent.

[Zelgius]

I've been playing Punishing Nic-fit for while and this is my current list:

Lands (23)

2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain


Creatures (14)

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
2x Grave Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon


Spells (23)

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Punishing Fire
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Sensei's Divining Top


Sideboard

4x Surgical Extraction
3x Duress
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
3x Angel of Despair / Mindbreak Trap (meta-dependant)


Yesterday I placed 3 out of 14 people at our local shop with this list (using Angel of Despair in the sb) and was quite happy with the deck. I've beaten Dragon Stompy (2-0), Affinity (2-0) and Burn (2-0) and lost to UW Miracles (0-1). All the matches were fairly easy to beat, almost having no problems at all. The meta was: Sneak Show, UW Miracles (RiP/ Helm), Esper Stoneblade, Burn, Zombardment, Elves, Affinity, Dragon Stompy, Merfolk, Goblins

Dragon Stompy can do little to screw us, since our curve is higuer than the usual CoTV at 1 or 2 and we dont care about Thrinisphere at all (as long we dont get mana screwed). A T0 Magus or Blood Moon can be dangerous if all we got is fetches, but thats it: once we have a swamp and a forest out, its very hard to lose.

Affinity was an easy match, just blowed Pernicious Deed to wipe the opponent's board and that was it.

Burn was a little harder, since there was a good amount of pressure, but Huntmaster and Thragtusk saved the day.

The most difficult match was UW Miracles (RiP / Helm of Obedience version). G1 lasted 40 minutes, and I lost to Helm mulling my library after I had a Grave Titan going for lethal damage on the following turn. In G2, time was called, so it ended 0-1. After the tournament was finished, I played against another player with a similar Miracles list and lost 1-2 (The game I won was on the back of a lone uncounterable Thrun beatdown).

This matchup has been very annoying for me. My current sideboard for it is: -1 Scavening Ooze, -1 Eternal Witness, -3 Punishing Fire, +2 Slaughter Games, +3 Red Elemental Blast. My main target for Slaughter Games has been RiP most of the time, and I got 3x ReB's and 2x Pulse to deal with Jace. My plan is to win via Thrun beats and use Discard, Deed, Decay and Pulse to avoid Jace, RiP and Entreat the Angels.

Do you guys have any other tips for this matchup? Also, I was thinking of 3x Carpet of Flowers in the 3x Angel of Despair / Mindbreak Trap, but idk if its worth it, since it gets blown out with Deed and we already have a difficult combo matchup... Any thoughts?

[MrIggins]

Punishing Nic Fit is on SCG's stream right now, being played by Tim Wilson. Is he in this thread?

[TheArchitect]

After they punt back and forth a bit, punishing nic fit takes it down! I hope to see him later in the top8.

[exw]

Interesting game.

Weird targets for slaughter games.

[TheArchitect]

Interesting game.

Weird targets for slaughter games.

The late Punishing fire name was weird, but I like naming entreat. It was between entreat and terminus I think (thrun can deal with jace). But he didnt see many termini previously, and an entreat would beat thrun AND wins the game, terminus just deals with thrun.

[MrIggins]

I was really hoping he would see the deed for zero, because the opponent clearly didn't. That was a nice play, I really disagree with his exiling the Punishing Fires game 2 but otherwise I think he played it pretty well. Hope to see him go all the way.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

HoneyT is 6-0 with Punishing Fire Nic Fit at SCG KC. Can probably double draw in to top eight. He beat ANT three times on the day.

[jbone2016]

This guy is 3-3 with rector fit.

[HoneyT]

I'm playing Punishing Nic Fit at SCG KC. The Slaughter Games on Punishing Fire was necessary because my hand at the time couldn't deal with Geist through the Fires.

[MrIggins]

I didn't see your hand so that's definitely a reason. Super excited to see Nic Fit in the top 8 later! Take it home!

[Tao]

Congratulations to Honey for the finish.

unfortunate matchup in Top8

[Cire_dk]

Been quiet for a while but have been keeping up reading all posts.
In this case I just want to congratulate Honey with his fantastic result. Soon to be deck to beat !! :smile:

Looking forward to your report by the way. Especially SB plans and considerations for possible changes.

[Tao]

Perhaps Hornet Queen provides a nice solution to the given situations. Only thing is that it only has a total of 6 power compared to 8 from broodmate dragon. It can chump block anything on the board and it can even help to minimize the devestation an Emrakul puts us in, saccing 4 tokens, blocking with the hornet and saccing some lands or whatever.


Total power is the least I care about. I will give Hornet Queen a try in BUG.

[Megadeus]

Durward Loved Hornet Queen in GB fit. Didnt he play like 1 MB 2 SB or something? I mean it is definitely sweet. 6 power that is great on offense AND defense.

[jbone2016]

So....I played in KC on Sunday. But first I played in the Legacy challenge on Sat with Rector fit.
The List:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Pernicious Deed
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
SB:
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak trap
1x Chalice of the Void
1x E.Tutor
1x Elspeth
1x Batterskull
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Oblivion ring
1x Angel of Despair
1x Illiness in the ranks (don't ask)
1x Abrupt Decay

Fairly close to Ari's list.
Note: I've been under the weather for a few days, so my memory isn't the best.
Round 1: Matthew with BUG Delver?

Game 1: Not much here, I land a Thragtusk. Beat with it, and drop a nightmare to seal it.
Game 2: I get Sorin out turn 2, deed turn 3 and blow it for 2. and then a Batterskull. GG.

Round 2: Alex with ANT (Local guy from Minneapolis, plays at Monster Den)
Game 1: I keep a one lander with a top. He attempts to go off with Ad Nauseam, goes down to 2. Has to past in flames back the Ad Nauseam...and dies with 2 duresses.
Game 2: We both mulligan and I keep a hand of a couple of land, witness and both leyline of sanctity. I get a mindbreak trap to counter an infernal, then get a nightmare to go with the other witness for shenanigans.

Round 3: Blaine with RUG
Game 1: I go down to 5 before I get Tusk and then Sun Titan/deed happens.
Game 2: I go down to 3.....land batterskull....and he doesn't topdeck the bolt. Sorin joins the party to mop up.

Round 4: Devin with Re animator
I offer the draw for 3-0-1 split (mostly because I'm sick and tired), he declines.
Game 1: He gets an early Archon, then an Elesh Norn. I fetters the Norn for some life. I end up ramping....getting an empath for titan. playing titan for empath for yosei. I think I'm almost at lethal with a baneslayer and yosei on my side. I topdeck.....a rector. I think for minute before I realize I get nightmare to lock him out. Thanks elesh norn! So we durdle for a while before I get something to kill the Archon. Of course, I'm a dumbass with 2 therapies in my hand, with him tapped out....he forces the nightmare during one of the loops. but I still have a tower to sac yosei. Titan gets nightmare back. Game over.

I still offer the draw....and he accepts.
So....7 games...7 wins... (well...6 and a whiff by the opponent). Sunday, not as well. I'll cover that later.

[HoneyT]

As most of you know, I made Top 8 at SCG KC. I want to say thanks to everyone on here for all the support!! I will be posting a tournament report sometime tomorrow evening so be sure to look out for that!!

[Zombie]

Game 1: I keep a one lander with a top. He attempts to go off with Ad Nauseam, goes down to 2. Has to past in flames back the Ad Nauseam...and dies with 2 duresses.

What turn is this? If it's 1 or 2 I'll be depressed. Learn to play your decks ffs (directed at Storm player) : /

[jbone2016]

What turn is this? If it's 1 or 2 I'll be depressed. Learn to play your decks ffs (directed at Storm player) : /

Turn 2, I believe.

[Siiig]

Sup peeps, haven't posted in a while.

I'm surprised no ones commented on what reads like my new favorite experimental slot in scapeshift...

http://i.imgur.com/ggJIzXz.jpg

6 mana slot, GSZ-able, provides defense against delvers and souls, and my favorite part, 6 damage if he's removed.

He seems to provide a good "high mana" end to the beat down plan that scapeshift loves to play at times.

Feels?

[Kich867]

He has a 6/6 body with vigilance. Under what circumstance would you not just bash in with him anyways? Like obviously there's outlying circumstances but you don't often see people hold back a batterskull. Few creatures in legacy get larger than 6/6, Nic fit pretty much bases its game around not giving a shit about them, I see virtually no downside to playing him.

[TheArchitect]

"~ attacks each turn if able." So he's only delver protection when he has summoning sickness. Still, the way I read it is "this thing is too good, so we have to nerf it with the 'must attack clause' but we'll make up for that by giving it reach."

Seems nifty, but the experimental slot is the right place for it I think. Now, if he trampled...

Vigilance.

I haven't gotten to test him yet, but on paper he seems good against any deck playing cantrips.

[Siiig]

Vigilance.

I haven't gotten to test him yet, but on paper he seems good against any deck playing cantrips.

Basically what me and Kich were discussing. He's actually a pretty good option if you can disrupt long enough against a combo deck. As soon as he hits they become bust if they try to go off.

Also, if they need to brainstorm up their answer, 12 damage is... well... 12 damage?

[CRich3]

I plan on playing him as soon as he comes out. Looks like a lot of fun.

[Tao]

I find it sad but I do not think that he is playable, Maybe I am wrong but this is my reasoning:

Against Control: he is just worse than Primeval Titan. Dealing 6 to them is nice but Nic Fit doesn't apply enough pressure to make it constantly lethal. Getting 2 lands (in red versions that will something like Valakut, Wolf Run or Grove) is almost always better against Control. If there is a Jace in play on their side Titan is infinitely better.

But his real problem is against Aggro: 6/6 Vigilance Reach stabilizes the board but you can't go anywhere from there on. Nic Fit plays far more spells than creatures so his effect is pretty bad for you, especially considering that the opponent will be ahead on life total. So you would often lock yourself out of the game with him. On top of that he is frequently smaller than Tarmogoyfs so it isn't even sure that he dominates the board.

against Combo: He is good but not great. I rarely hit 7 Mana against them without having the game already sealed up.

[TheArchitect]

Tao, I think you are right. Prime titan is definitely going to better 99% of the time. I think the question here is, if the deck needs 2 drops, is this guy the 2nd best 6 drop. I have not been impressed with broodmate dragon, so maybe this can take the dragons place.

Also I was rushed before and did say it but, congrats on the finish honeyT! And Jbone too! It sounds like you 2 played the same devin playing reanimator in your last rounds.

[CRich3]

Anyone have any successful/semi successful BUG lists? I need something better against combo.

[HoneyT]

Anyone have any successful/semi successful BUG lists? I need something better against combo.

I beat ANT 3 times in KC without islands. Still working on the report. Running a little behind. Promise it will be up soon!

[Siiig]

I beat ANT 3 times in KC without islands. Still working on the report. Running a little behind. Promise it will be up soon!

Can't wait to read your report Honey, congrats!

[Tao]

Anyone have any successful/semi successful BUG lists? I need something better against combo.

My signature list is pretty good and it is favored against Combo from G2 on.

[Greenpoe]

Has Mindbreak Trap actually been all that good, Tao? It is free, but seems only good against Storm combo specifically, and by the time they've cast enough spells for you to Trap them, wouldn't they have already checked your hand for hate and Thoughtseized/Silenced you?

[Tao]

The Mindbreak Traps mostly balance out the numbers (also they are amazing against Belcher). They have been okay, not stellar, but also not bad.

They are the necessary 16th and 17th blue card for the FoW count the 5th and 6th spell that can stop a kill on turn 0. The card needs to be blue for FoW to work and I didn't like the 4th Negate because against Combo they can be a bit slow so I'd rather have 1 Trap, 1 Negate than 2 Negates. Against Control I won't board more than 3 Negates anyway so the fourth Negate seemed bad. Spell Pierce also seems bad in a deck that uses Explorer but I haven't tested it. Another option would be Vendilion Clique and I think it is very close between Trap and Clique. I decided for Trap because I wanted more super fast stuff.

Storm will usually side out Silence against Nic Fit for G2. And if they keep it, it might be dead if you have a Discard heavy draw. So Silence is not the greatest of concerns. If they have Probe + Therapy + Combo and you don't have another answer then there is not much any card could have done in that situation.

[Ayotte]

Tao I really like your list and I might play it at Milwaukee. Nic Fit is the only deck I own most of the cards for and in a larger tournament I want to have some game vs. combo. Anything you would change if you were to play it at an SCG event in a couple weeks?

[Tao]

Here is a short breakdown of my thoughts on the list: I would not change much in the maindeck. These are the slots that I currently consider fixed because they have proven themselves (when I experiment I never go below these numbers but maybe play more):

22 lands (including 2 Phyrexian Tower)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

The 2 Wurmcoils, the Hornet Queen and the Ooze are all replaceable:
- I wanted some form of Yard removal in G1 so I added Ooze. Don't like it very much though, often dies without value.
- Hornet Queen is a test slot, but she seems good. I would play at least one big GSZ target. It could be Primeval Titan or Terastodon or Hornet Queen. If you play Titan, play 23 lands including 2 Creeping Tar Pits (remove 1 Underground Sea). Don't play Stronghold, it was generally not worth it.
- I like Wurmcoil because it destroys Jund and is amazing against BUG. On the other hand Wurmcoil sucks against UW/x so if these decks have a comeback you should play Titan+land instead.

these cards I also consider playing in the MD: 3rd Inquisition, 3rd Liliana, 4th Decay, 4th Deed, Coiling Oracle, any Garruk, Primeval Titan, Terastodon

For the SB:
- 3 Surgicals and the fourth Decay are fixed. I would not recommend changing them.
- the blue cards are one way to approach Combo. You could also try 4 Thoughtseize instead of the Force of Wills. That is probably a bit better against TES/ANT and Elves but worse against Belcher and it loses hard against SnT's white Leyline.

[HoneyT]

Alright guys, the KC report is finally up in the Tournament Reports thread!

Here's a link for easy referece:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25778-Crime-and-Punishment-(Mostly-Punishment)-a-Top-8-Report-with-Nic-Fit-at-SCG-KC&p=713247#post713247

Check it out! Feel free to ask any questions!

[Cire_dk]

Great read, thanks for that. Is there anything you would change to the deck. I noted you boarded out P Fire quite often. Are they still worth it?

[Bobmans]

...
- Hornet Queen is a test slot, but she seems good. I would play at least one big GSZ target. It could be Primeval Titan or Terastodon or Hornet Queen.

Does anyone have results playing the Horny Queen?


.. I noted you boarded out P Fire quite often. Are they still worth it?

Good question. I am curious to the answer as well.


...top 8 list...!

I noticed you didn't bring Volrath's Stronghold and you where playing Garruk, Primal Hunter instead of Garruk Relentless. What was the reasoning behind those choices?

[Tao]

I am on the same page as Honey about all the choices (the list is similar to what I posted, just more well-rounded; the only change I would make is -1 Forest, + 1 Foothills) so I give it a try:


I noted you boarded out P Fire quite often. Are they still worth it?

- Against all the Delvers and DR Shamans you need early defense anyway so a 2-mana Shock is an acceptable spell in the current Meta. And Grove is basically Taiga because if you swing with Titans you don't care too much about minor life gain for the opponent. That means that adding P. Fire / Grove to the deck comes at a very low cost. So it is still okay even if you get less profit out of it.
- he played a lot against Combo, so it is natural that spot removal isn't at its best and against the few non-combo he played against P. Fire seemed good from the report
- against U/W decks you can afford to take out 1-2 Fires because the games go long and you have time to find it. Also the odds are quite high that they will Surgical it (and there is usually no way to find the time to be able to play around it).



I noticed you didn't bring Volrath's Stronghold and you where playing Garruk, Primal Hunter instead of Garruk Relentless. What was the reasoning behind those choices?

- You cannot run many colorless lands in a 3-colored deck and Tower and Wolf-Run are much better. I don't know about HoneyT but I personally would play a second Tower over Volrath's Stronghold if there was more room for colorless lands. Long, grindy games are rare at the moment and those in which your creatures don't get exiled (by DR Shaman, Ooze or Swords) are even rarer.
- Garruk PH is amazing. In combination with Thrun he is a reliable Tidings and even though I haven't used PH in combination with Wolf-Run yet I can only imagine it would be glorious. The best part is his +1 though and when compared to Garruk Relentless he feels more meaty and less vulnerable.

[Star|Scream]

First off Congrats HoneyT

Speaking of Garruk, PH, I had a question for Arianrhod regarding the scapewish build.

Wouldn't he be better maindeck than promise of power? For wishing reasons, I can understand the promise in the board. However, maindeck, I think that GPH fills the same basic role minus the lifeloss and is easier to cast.

[guelahpapyrus]

@HoneyT

Great report, congratulations. Stellar job on those horrible matchups.

I'm curious how you liked Broodmate Dragon over a second Thrag or a second Garruk PH?

[Arianrhod]

I'm still pretty drugged up from getting my wisdom teeth out on Monday (and am still in quite a bit of pain), so I'm can't promise that I'm going to be entirely coherent. My apologies for that.

@Ruric Whatever (6/6 Gruul champion guy) -- my stance on him is pretty much Tao's stance. I'll probably test him just to be sure, but the fact that he's symmetrical doesn't impress me. From Scapewish's perspective, okay cool you have him out -- then you topdeck Burning Wish, with lethal on board. Do you really want to take 12 to attempt to Shift ftw? Can you, even? That's so poor. Theoretically you could get him out and just sit on him, on an empty board, but he's still smaller than most Tarmogoyfs or KotR. Without Green Sun's Zenith you probably can't advance your own board state. I'm just not convinced that it's worth it. Vs combo yeah sure, fine. But if you get can to 7 lands vs combo, you've won already anyway.

@Promise of Power experiment -- that's failed. I might try Primal Hunter. Diabolic Revelation is also on my bucket list of things to try -- the triple black ended up being the primary deal-breaker after all. It was just too hard to get to in real-world situations (ie wasteland exists). Double-black seemed common, though, by comparison, so I'll probably test Revelation. Primal-Hunter is certainly an option that's on the table.

@HoneyT and JBone -- congratulations to both of you!

@GP Pitt: Got my Deeds all finished and signed. Also randomly found two jap foil Verdant Catacombs which I used my trade credit to jump on -- which meant I couldn't get my 2nd candlestick for 12post, but whatever. Started out win-a-boxing with 12post, split one and then kept hitting Jund over and over again, so I got frustrated and did my token one with Rector. Despite being a terrible win-a-box deck, I'll always do one with Rector just because I enjoy playing it and showing it off.

Played vs High Tide r1 one. Keep in mind that my list currently has neither Carpet of Flowers nor Cranial/Memoricide. So game 1 he goes apeshit. Game two I annoy him with Therapies until I triumphantly slam Nether Void. He can't go off under it, and he can't solve it before he dies. G3 he gets mana screwed while I hit a Rector into Void again. Got pretty lucky here.

Round 2 was vs Bant. Game one I get to go totally and completely off, to the point where I had Yosei lock with active Recycle. I had a bit of a crowd, lol. Game two I kept a reasonable hand and then never drew mana sources. I died with basically every card in my deck that cost 4 or more in my hand. Game three was mine if at any point I drew into a Pernicious Deed or a Rector. He comically overcommitted and I just couldn't draw into sweep. Really sucked =(

Sunday I did another 12-post win-a-box, and managed to hit Jund -again-. I finally realized that the meta was slow combo, Jund, and fair.dec (Miracles/Blade) -- TES wasn't really present, nor was Belcher. There was a lot of High Tide, though, for some reason. This made me come to the "fuck it" realization of running Scapewish. So I ran Scapewish in a win-a-box.

R1 was vs BUGStill. I actually know how to play this matchup disturbingly well by this point because I keep getting paired up against my deck. I still manage to punt away g1. I'm at lethal from both combat and Jace the next turn. I rip Green Sun, and can Zenith for Witness for Wish for Scapeshift for win. The GSZ resolves, and I let myself get too eager, and fail to flashback Therapy with Witness to check him for Spell Snares. I obviously get blown out. Game two I Avenger him, and g3 he keeps a weird hand with a ton of manlands and no interaction, so I just Scapeshift him out.

R2 was vs Rich Shay on Jund. Rich Shay is something of an eternal pro, and I knew this round would be very challenging. He opens up with the classic Deathrite into t2 Liliana g1, and things go downhill from there. Jund isn't a horrible matchup for Scapewish unless they get that exact opening, in which case the deck can be a huge pain. G2 he doesn't have Liliana, and I end up topping out my curve, Primeval into Avenger. Avenger brings 9 friends, and they become 2/3s on the attack, which is enough to tie us up 1-1. Game 3 sees another Deathrite into Liliana start by Rich. I have double Explorers staring at his double Goyf, and my Top is mitigating the damage from Liliana. We quickly end up both hellbent, as he drops the rest of his hand to empty mine (Deathrite + Hymn, + Liliana activation). He then starts swinging in. I get lands, and spin Top. I hit a Burning Wish and Scapeshift for the kill.

R3 was comical. I offered the split -- it was like 4pm and I was eager to hit the road. The split was denied. My opponent was playing UWr Miracles. I just shrug and accept my free half a box. G1 is horrifically one-sided. I make a board, he terminuses, and then I carry on with the business of killing him. G2 I kept a shady hand, but I thought that my opponent was bad, so....bad on me. It was one of those tantalizing never-keeps....Mountain + Valakut, double Explorer, Tower, Therapy, Wish. Naturally I never hit green mana, and I die to his curve. Game 3 I keep a much better hand. I play Wood Elves on my turn 3, and he thinks for a second while getting oracle. Upon getting oracle, he slams Force of Will. I'm kind of confused but am not complaining. Next turn he triumphantly jams Blood Moon. He has Volc, Tundra, Plains. I have Forest, Taiga, Bayou, with Forest + Swamp in my hand. I just shrug and laugh. He ends up having to EE for 1 to kill one of my Explorers just to fix his mana, at which point I "just kill him."

So yeah. That was my weekend. I probably could've won more boxes if I'd realized to switch to Scapewish sooner because of the omnipresence of High Tide and Jund, but oh well -- such is life.

Gonna go rest more now ... hopefully I feel better soon. Fucking wisdom teeth.

[Tammit67]

So yeah. That was my weekend. I probably could've won more boxes if I'd realized to switch to Scapewish sooner because of the omnipresence of High Tide and Jund, but oh well -- such is life.

Gonna go rest more now ... hopefully I feel better soon. Fucking wisdom teeth.

Is Jund really that bad for 12 post? It was good seeing you out there (I think it was you), glad you had more success with Nic Fit!

[Arianrhod]

Is Jund really that bad for 12 post? It was good seeing you out there (I think it was you), glad you had more success with Nic Fit!

Yeah it was. And in my experience it is. I saw you were running a Needle version, though, which would probably make a lot of difference -- mine's still on brainstorm. The combination of wastelands + t2-3 Liliana of the Veil (which we have no pressure to hold off from ultimate) + discard + efficient threats is a serious problem. I was doing everything I could -- including the fabled Repeal Liliana in response to her +1 when your opponent is hellbent -- and it just wasn't enough. I'd win a game or two here or there, but never a whole match. Jund is probably the deck that I'm most afraid of with 12post.

I just wish I'd realized sooner that the Belchers and TESs and ANTs and Show and Tells and Dredges and Reanimators weren't out in large number -- would've definitely taken down a few more with Scapewish. It's so weird, though -- those are usually what Win-a-boxes at GPs are infested with...the dumb non-interactive combo decks that win on t0-t2. Pitt was kind of an odd exception.

[HoneyT]

Great read, thanks for that. Is there anything you would change to the deck. I noted you boarded out P Fire quite often. Are they still worth it?

Thanks!

Tao pretty much hit the nail on the head with his response. The Punishing Fires are absolutely brutal in any kind of fair/creature matchup. A great example was against my UWR Delver oppponent where he simply could not keep a creature on board. I just happened to play against lots of combo on the day where they are less than stellar. Also, as he said, it's safe to board out 1-2 in the U/W matchups especially if you're expecting Surgicals out of Stoneblade.

As far as changes go, I wouldn't really do anything. I'm very happy with the list where it's at. Tao suggested cutting a Forest for a Foothills which is probably fine, but personally I want enough basics to get full value out of my Explorers and cast all my cards (Garruk). Personal preference.




I noticed you didn't bring Volrath's Stronghold and you where playing Garruk, Primal Hunter instead of Garruk Relentless. What was the reasoning behind those choices?

Again, like Tao said, too many colorless lands is a problem and the Wolf Run and Tower are FAR more important. I would not cut a colored source from the deck. I would cut a spell before or play 61 cards if I wanted a Stronghold. I have done it in the past, but in the current meta, it's unnecessary for the reasons Tao explained (though if I could play another colorless land it would be Stronghold cuz I'm a sucker for value).

Also Primal Hunter is nuts. That's it. In a vaccuum, he's the more powerful card of the two, and since I'm playing plenty of extra green sources with Groves, I definitely just prefer the better card. The amount of raw card advantage he provides is simply absurd.


@HoneyT

Great report, congratulations. Stellar job on those horrible matchups.

I'm curious how you liked Broodmate Dragon over a second Thrag or a second Garruk PH?

Thanks!!

Broodmate Dragon is awesome. The deck wants a second 6-drop for curve considerations and Broodmate Dragon is the best fit. He stabilizes the board immediately against a bunch of creatures, provides a very fast, evasive clock, and is mostly spot removal proof since he's split up between two beefy bodies. He an important part of the GSZ toolbox that does just about everything you want out of that slot.

Also @Arianrhod (for value): Feel better man!

[sherko7]

@HoneyT

Was looking through your list and it seems quite well rounded. Just a few questions:

1) Whats your stand on packing more discard MD? I was thinking -1 Garruk -1 DRS for 2 Thoughtseize?
2) I've seen a lot of lists packing 3 Huntmaster, but I think 3 is cloggy and 2 seems to be the better number. Whats your reason for playing 2?
3) How's the lone DRS? How often do you find yourself GSZ'ing for it instead of Veteran Explorer?
4) I've always been a fan of 2 Thragtusks. It gives more clock, plus it just helps against a lot of matchups. If you had 1 more creature slot, what would you play?

I've been been playing GB Nic Fit and I think Punishing Nic Fit would be the way to go once I can get the lands. :smile:

[nottz]

How would you guys feel about Bonfire back in the maindeck with how the meta is shifting.

[HoneyT]

@HoneyT

Was looking through your list and it seems quite well rounded. Just a few questions:

1) Whats your stand on packing more discard MD? I was thinking -1 Garruk -1 DRS for 2 Thoughtseize?
2) I've seen a lot of lists packing 3 Huntmaster, but I think 3 is cloggy and 2 seems to be the better number. Whats your reason for playing 2?
3) How's the lone DRS? How often do you find yourself GSZ'ing for it instead of Veteran Explorer?
4) I've always been a fan of 2 Thragtusks. It gives more clock, plus it just helps against a lot of matchups. If you had 1 more creature slot, what would you play?

I've been been playing GB Nic Fit and I think Punishing Nic Fit would be the way to go once I can get the lands. :smile:


1) The extra discard is at it's best against the combo decks and the two slots aren't enough to make it consistently winnable game one anyway so it's not really worth it. I'll take the extra bomb and utility dude.
2) For curve considerations, the deck wants a certain number of 4 drops. Huntmaster is insane but Thrun is WAAAAYYY better than the third Huntmaster. Ever used a Wolf Run on a Thrun? Try it. Feels great.
3) The DRS is nice. I Zenith for it often enough especially against decks where I want acceleration but don't want to or can't set off an Explorer. I also Zenith for him early against combo. He's another way to ensure I can cast a turn 3 Slaughter Games even without an Explorer. In KC I Zenithed for him against ANT and he clocked half of his life total, made his PiF irrelevant and ensured his Cabal Rituals were never at Threshold. He's also just a random awesome utility dude that doesn't take up much deck space in our GSZ toolbox.
4) I haven't found a second Tusk necessary. It's certainly fine, but not needed. To be fair, if I wanted to make room for another creature though it would be the second Tusk. Again, we can only play so many high end drops and Garruk is way better than the 2nd(5th) Thragtusk.

[Arianrhod]

How would you guys feel about Bonfire back in the maindeck with how the meta is shifting.

There's still way too many Tarmogoyfs IMO. Bonfire is at its best when Goyf has a low presence in the meta. Goyf's just too beefy for Bonfire to effectively kill.

-----

I second -almost- everything that HoneyT said. I personally didn't like Deathrite in the deck when I tried him. I also dislike Thrun with a fierce hatred in decks that do not involve Stoneforge Mystic. However, I will grant HoneyT that Thrun is probably insane in PFire builds because of the presence of Wolf Run. Without Wolf Run, though, I still don't think that Thrun is playable. He's just too small -- he needs enhancement of some kind. If you -can- enhance him, though, he's the stone nut.

I will note that for Scapewish and G/B specifically, the 2nd Tusk is probably still correct. Scapewish wants the time that Tusk buys so that it can dig for Scapeshift. G/B is more limited in playable threats, and I would happily take a 2nd Tusk over something like a Deranged Hermit or a Spiritmonger any day of the week. PFire can get away with a 1-of Tusk, and white versions have Sigarda.

[TheArchitect]

I've been playing p-fire build more lately. I might play it over scapewish at the next mythic event.

I also hate thrun as a card. But in p-fire he is a total beast. The wolf run helps, I also run a Wolfir silverheart in the slot honey T has broodmate in. But really the reason he is good in that list, is because the board is almost always clear of blockers. With 4 pfires, 2-4 decays, 1-2 pulse and 3 deeds, nothing ever blocks him.

Also, Im not a fan of broodmate. Primetitan+lands resolving usually wins the game. Broodmate gets outraced by a large goyf or knight. And dies to abrupt decays + another spell. Yes, it's a 2 for 1, but he's going to sit in our hand and be useless as a 6 drop more often than he 2 for 1s. Silverheart, isn't as big an investment at 5 mana and packs a much bigger punch. He also has an impact on combat the turn he comes into play if you have a soulbound target.

Idk about deathrite, i tried him briefly and didn't like him in nic fit, but I might not have given him enough chance. Different from honeyt's list, I've been doing -1 ooze, -1 wit, -1 DRS, +2 Tribe elders, +1 volraths stronghold. Which I have been liking, although having an ooze in the 75 would be nice. The mana base is super solid, I have more shuffle effects and access to stronghold.

[Arianrhod]

I've been playing p-fire build more lately. I might play it over scapewish at the next mythic event.

I also hate thrun as a card. But in p-fire he is a total beast. The wolf run helps, I also run a Wolfir silverheart in the slot honey T has broodmate in. But really the reason he is good in that list, is because the board is almost always clear of blockers. With 4 pfires, 2-4 decays, 1-2 pulse and 3 deeds, nothing ever blocks him.

Also, Im not a fan of broodmate. Primetitan+lands resolving usually wins the game. Broodmate gets outraced by a large goyf or knight. And dies to abrupt decays + another spell. Yes, it's a 2 for 1, but he's going to sit in our hand and be useless as a 6 drop more often than he 2 for 1s. Silverheart, isn't as big an investment at 5 mana and packs a much bigger punch. He also has an impact on combat the turn he comes into play if you have a soulbound target.

Idk about deathrite, i tried him briefly and didn't like him in nic fit, but I might not have given him enough chance. Different from honeyt's list, I've been doing -1 ooze, -1 wit, -1 DRS, +2 Tribe elders, +1 volraths stronghold. Which I have been liking, although having an ooze in the 75 would be nice. The mana base is super solid, I have more shuffle effects and access to stronghold.

/barn. I like Silverheart over Broodmate in PFire.

[Alexeezay]

Hey guys, I just split 1st/2nd place at the local legacy with Scapewish, going 4-0-1 (undefeated).
There were a lot of players, most of the decks were combo and midrange/tempo decks...although I didn't face any combo deck luckily.

Here is my Scapewish Nic Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Wickerbough Elder
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run

Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 reanimate
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction

I played against BR suicide (red death), Esper Stoneblade, Canadian Threshold, Affinity & BUG Tempo. Overall good matchups :)
Kessig Wolf Run wasn't that great except vs. Stoneblade so I could trample through his blockers to kill Jace TMS. I probably should cut Wolf Run...
Broodmate Dragon also seemed underwhelming and I never really used it, I will try out 2nd Primeval Titan or Garruk, Primal Hunter here next time.
If the meta continues with lots of combo decks, mostly Storm, I'll cut Reverent Silence and maybe Reanimate for 2 more hate cards in the SB.

[Arianrhod]

How was Wolf Run for you, Alex?

[Alexeezay]

Kessig Wolf Run wasn't that great except vs. Stoneblade : D so I could trample through his blockers to kill Jace TMS. I probably should cut Wolf Run...it's not really necessary
Broodmate Dragon also seemed underwhelming and I never really used it, I will try out 2nd Primeval Titan or Garruk Primal Hunter here next time ;)

[HoneyT]

Also, Im not a fan of broodmate. Primetitan+lands resolving usually wins the game. Broodmate gets outraced by a large goyf or knight. And dies to abrupt decays + another spell. Yes, it's a 2 for 1, but he's going to sit in our hand and be useless as a 6 drop more often than he 2 for 1s. Silverheart, isn't as big an investment at 5 mana and packs a much bigger punch. He also has an impact on combat the turn he comes into play if you have a soulbound target.

Saying you should play Silverheart over Broodmate doesn't make sense when your argument is it dies to two pieces of removal. Silverheart dies to one. I'm not saying the card is bad, on the contrary, it's quite good when paired with tramplers and/or shroud dudes (I've used him in GB with Kodama of the North Tree).

Broodmate Dragon, in general serves more functions. It stabilizes most board states immediately, provides two beefy evasive bodies, doesn't lose to a single removal spell, and doesn't require another creature to be on board for it to do anything. The Dragon has been stellar for me. Until it starts underperforming it will have a place in the deck.

On the Wolf Run: I think the card only belongs in straight Jund lists. It doesn't do enough in Scapewish.

[CRich3]

I have a very high ant/tes sneak and show environment. Which version would be best vs sneak and show?

[TheArchitect]

I have a very high ant/tes sneak and show environment. Which version would be best vs sneak and show?

Probably rector or scapeshift. Rector because humilty and other hate cards. I dont think Ive lost to a sneak and show deck in an actual tournement with scapeshift. REB in the SB is really good. You also cut their win cons in half. They basically HAVE to either show Gris (NOT emrakul) or use sneak attack. If they go S&T>Em, you can kill it with on of the decks effect 4 innocent bloods, or what ive done in the past is show in prime titan and then kill both their emrakul and deal 20 to their dome the next turn with a scapeshift. If you slaughtergames/surgical their sneaks and/or griselbrands they have a much harder time winning.



Saying you should play Silverheart over Broodmate doesn't make sense when your argument is it dies to two pieces of removal. Silverheart dies to one. I'm not saying the card is bad, on the contrary, it's quite good when paired with tramplers and/or shroud dudes (I've used him in GB with Kodama of the North Tree).

Broodmate Dragon, in general serves more functions. It stabilizes most board states immediately, provides two beefy evasive bodies, doesn't lose to a single removal spell, and doesn't require another creature to be on board for it to do anything. The Dragon has been stellar for me. Until it starts underperforming it will have a place in the deck.

I see what you mean, but broodmate gets hit to a lot of the format's removal that silverheart doesnt care about, and our deck in general doesnt care about. Abrupt decay, punishing fire, EE, etc. All cards that are pretty much dead until you cast broodmate or huntmaster. Also the difference in mana costs can matter.

[Arianrhod]

Running Scapewish tonight at my local. Testing out Garruk, Primal Hunter in place of the Promise of Power maindeck. I also made the very long over-due switch from Virtue's Ruin to Perish finally, and I replaced the Promise of Power in the sideboard with a Collective Voyage mostly because I ran out of time to put in anything better. I really hate having 1 open slot in my sideboard, because it isn't enough for an "actual" sideboard card like Surgical or Extirpate; nor do I feel good putting in like a 1-of enchantment or PW or something else that I can't tutor. Actually just miserable.

I do have a few ideas of things that I want to try in that slot, but I simply ran out of time last night, so I'm gonna give the ramp option another try. I'm not optimistic on it impressing me this time around any more than it did last time.

[Arianrhod]

Also: who here is going to Strasbourg and with what variants? I need to know who I'm rooting for, dammit!

[Viridia]

I'm going and probably taking Biomancer BUG :)

[fireiced]

I also made the very long over-due switch from Virtue's Ruin to Perish finally

why the switch to perish? the rise of the abundance of tarmogoyfs?

BTW, I have been using wolf run in my scapewish lists for about 5 months now, while it is not stellar, it is able to eek me out a lot of games against grindy decks like deadguy, team italia and zombardment by clocking them much much faster and demanding them to answer a threat as minor as a wood elf in the later stages of the game

[Star|Scream]

Arianrhod, do you still feel that Avenger of Zendikar deserves a slot in Scapewish? Just wondering before I go out and get one. Eight dollars is still eight dollars!

[Arianrhod]

I'm going and probably taking Biomancer BUG :)

You think that it's actually good enough to run in a GP? I've thought about trying a straight BUG tokens list with Biomancer, but I've never been able to work up the gumption to actually build it. I certainly wouldn't think that it's good enough for a GP. But hey, hopefully I'm wrong!


why the switch to perish? the rise of the abundance of tarmogoyfs?

BTW, I have been using wolf run in my scapewish lists for about 5 months now, while it is not stellar, it is able to eek me out a lot of games against grindy decks like deadguy, team italia and zombardment by clocking them much much faster and demanding them to answer a threat as minor as a wood elf in the later stages of the game

Eh. I usually end up Shifting those decks to oblivion. Top is your friend. I also feel that Wolf Run's stock is even lower in Scapewish especially than usual due to the rise of Punishing Fire.

And yeah -- more Goyfs and more Elves, with a complete lack of Death and Taxes. If DnT and Maverick pop up again in a big way then I might switch back to Virtue's Ruin....but until then Perish is going to be a better use of the same slot. I wouldn't leave home without one or the other, though.


Arianrhod, do you still feel that Avenger of Zendikar deserves a slot in Scapewish? Just wondering before I go out and get one. Eight dollars is still eight dollars!

Very much so. Avenger has been fantastic for me against all varieties of decks.

[Viridia]

You think that it's actually good enough to run in a GP? I've thought about trying a straight BUG tokens list with Biomancer, but I've never been able to work up the gumption to actually build it. I certainly wouldn't think that it's good enough for a GP. But hey, hopefully I'm wrong!


Possibly, i like playing with Biomancer tho ^^

If not it'll be a toss up between Jace/Gifts BUG or Rector. Probably depending on if i get my Jaces back from the alterer in time :P

[Star|Scream]

Very much so. Avenger has been fantastic for me against all varieties of decks.

So with the huntmasters, thragtusks, and avenger, just how many tokens do you bring with you??

[Arianrhod]

So with the huntmasters, thragtusks, and avenger, just how many tokens do you bring with you??

I have a wolf token that a friend of mine from Ithaca made for me when I was playing and needed one sleeved up -- then I have an SCG wolf to represent my on-camera feature match at SCG Columbus, and a pair of LSV tokens. I used to have a wolf token from AVR that Doug McKay had given me, but one of my friends borrowed the deck and then lost it, so I was annoyed about that.

So....to answer your question, not enough :P

I'm still undecided on whether eventually I want to get german tokens for the deck, or if I want to have some of my artist friends make me some custom ones.

But I think that longterm, I'd probably only bring two of each type....2 wolves, 2 beasts, and 2 plants. Usually you won't need more than 2 Wolves or Beasts, but even if you do (and with the plants), I find a good solution is to have two tokens of the chosen type, and then use dice to represent tapped/untapped tokens.

So if you had 10 plant tokens, and you swung with 8 leaving 2 back, you'd have a Plant token card with a die@8 tapped, and then an untapped Plant token card with a die@2 untapped. I usually use a spindown d20 of a different color placed on the table underneath the plant token area to signify their +1/+1 counters.

I'm sure other people have different ways of doing it -- and I'm sure that some people just carry around a whole nother deckbox stuffed with tokens so they can be degenerates and actually vomit plant tokens on the table. But that's my plan =)

[slikwilly]

I have a wolf token that a friend of mine from Ithaca made for me when I was playing and needed one sleeved up -- then I have an SCG wolf to represent my on-camera feature match at SCG Columbus, and a pair of LSV tokens. I used to have a wolf token from AVR that Doug McKay had given me, but one of my friends borrowed the deck and then lost it, so I was annoyed about that.

So....to answer your question, not enough :P

I'm still undecided on whether eventually I want to get german tokens for the deck, or if I want to have some of my artist friends make me some custom ones.

But I think that longterm, I'd probably only bring two of each type....2 wolves, 2 beasts, and 2 plants. Usually you won't need more than 2 Wolves or Beasts, but even if you do (and with the plants), I find a good solution is to have two tokens of the chosen type, and then use dice to represent tapped/untapped tokens.

So if you had 10 plant tokens, and you swung with 8 leaving 2 back, you'd have a Plant token card with a die@8 tapped, and then an untapped Plant token card with a die@2 untapped. I usually use a spindown d20 of a different color placed on the table underneath the plant token area to signify their +1/+1 counters.

I'm sure other people have different ways of doing it -- and I'm sure that some people just carry around a whole nother deckbox stuffed with tokens so they can be degenerates and actually vomit plant tokens on the table. But that's my plan =)

My pimp of choice is artist signatures. While I was chatting with Chris Rahn at GP Denver he asked if I had the wolf token to go with the Sword of Body and Mind. Unfortunately I did not not as the artist search on both Gatherer and magiccards.info doesn't turn up tokens. Lesson learned: check the "Extras" page on magiccards.info when pulling cards to get signed.

I'm quite envious of your signed Pernicious Deeds. I didn't find out some friends were going to Pitt until it was too late for me to get cards to them. My fingers are crossed that Christopher Moeller will be at DC later this year. I'd love to get my Deeds and Zealous Persecutions signed :)

Looks like Vegas (http://www.cascadegames.com/events/933) has quite the artist lineup too, and that's the only event between now and DC that I'm seriously thinking about.

[HoneyT]

I'm sure other people have different ways of doing it -- and I'm sure that some people just carry around a whole nother deckbox stuffed with tokens so they can be degenerates and actually vomit plant tokens on the table.

Haha this is me!

[Koby]

Haha this is me!

@GP Denver
Tim: "Do you have any red 4/4 Dragon tokens?"
Me: "What in sweet baby Jesus's holy mother's name are you playing!?!?"

[jbone2016]

Out of curiousity (and boredom at work), who is going to SCG Milwaukee in two weekends?

[Ayotte]

Out of curiousity (and boredom at work), who is going to SCG Milwaukee in two weekends?

I live in Madison, so definitely me. I'll either be playing Tao's BUG list or Scapeshift, depending on how much combo I see around.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

HoneyT is featured on the front page of Daily MTG.

[Koby]

HoneyT is featured on the front page of Daily MTG.

Congrats Tim!

My beef with Sam's article series -- he has no clue what he's writing about. Anyone with half a brain would spot GSZ and Green creatures in the deck to realize why a 6 mana Green dragon is superior than a 6 mana black Zombie.

Whatever happened to critical thinking?

[slikwilly]

Out of curiousity (and boredom at work), who is going to SCG Milwaukee in two weekends?

I'll be there. Up in the air on what to play though.


My beef with Sam's article series -- he has no clue what he's writing about. Anyone with half a brain would spot GSZ and Green creatures in the deck to realize why a 6 mana Green dragon is superior than a 6 mana black Zombie.

*sigh* When will writers get tired of harping on the name? I cannot abide another article bitching about Legacy deck names in general and Nic Fit in particular. And isn't Sam supposed to be Mr. Synergy-and-sacrifices? GSZ + green creatures & Explorer + Therapy should be right up his alley.

[Lemnear]

500 words "Feature" article about:

- rant on the name of the deck
- being Captain obvious about Explorer and Therapy without commenting his own Claim that therapy is underplayed
- "Why those? Why not? Who cares?"

So these people are our "Platinum Pro Player and longtime writer for StarCityGames.com. He is a respected deck builder"? Very interesting

[Tao]

Yeah, what a mess, lol.

"Tim Wilson recently made the Top 8 of StarCityGames.com Open: Kansas City with a deck called Nic Fit...
...
...
...
—and Broodmate Dragon is a good choice in a format with Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt. The point is that this is a fun deck that has good disruptive elements and ramp, which let you play much sweeter big spells than other Legacy decks."

And that is the entirety of the "article" that isn't wrong. Nonetheless it is nice to see the deck get some attention.

[Lemnear]

Nonetheless it is nice to see the deck get some attention.

the name of the deck isn't "Lindsey Lohan" and gratefully receives ANY form of attention

[Arianrhod]

Sigh. Another blurb about the deck, another set of false pretenses. And another pro who thinks that Grave Titan must be all that, in Nic Fit in general, just because Caleb played him in G/B. I sometimes wonder what someone like GerryT would make of Nic Fit, were he to write about it. Someone who played Survival in all of its various forms, and appreciated the fact that what is capital-T True for one list may not necessary be the same for another.

Still, it's awesome that we get the recognition of front-page on Daily MTG -- and for Tim especially. Although, I do worry that the only effect will be to create a new set of functional retards who pick up the deck because it looks cool, and then proceed to suck with it and drag the deck's reputation through the dirt some more.

I say again: sigh.

-----------

So, I went 4-0, 8-1 in games, last night at my local (with Scapewish, if you've forgotten my post yesterday). My local is currently giving out packs of Onslaught for prize support -- not the most in terms of number (I got 4 packs for first, out of a 14 person event), but hey, it's Onslaught. I was rewarded for my efforts by cracking a Polluted Delta =D

So, here's how I got there:

R1: BUGStill.

As I've said before, I've had to play against this thing so many times that I know the matchup inside and out. He gets blue-screwed game one as he draws into multiple factories and bayous, but only has 1 Trop as a blue source. It doesn't particularly matter -- I crack a Standstill with Therapy (the best way to crack it ever), and call Jace, hitting two. I proceed to run him out of countermagic while dropping bombs, then curve out with Primeval into Avenger into Scapeshift into enormous plants.

Game two I Slaughter Games his Jaces, then proceed to REB his Force on my lethal Scapeshift.

R2: 12post.

I got a bit lucky here. My opponent mulled to 5 both games, and had fairly slow hands both games. I also had fairly slow hands, but they had disruption and my copy of Primeval Titan, so I was protected from Show and Tell. I Shifted for the win both games, but it was a pretty scary experience overall because of the presence of Crop Rotation. I think that Slaughter Games naming Crop Rot is actually a legitimate line of play that could make this matchup significantly easier. If our hand is at all decent, we should be able to ramp faster than they can, and we have the threat of Burning Wish -> Ruination as interaction, as well as disrupting them on the way with Therapy. If we don't have to worry about Crop Rotation into Chasm, it should be significantly easier to kill them. Something to try next time.

R3: Deadguy.

Game one is over quickly. He has a Baneslayer gaining him life, but I have 8 lands and a Scapeshift for 36.

Game two is horrifying. He has a t2 Stoneforge, and proceeds to start vomitting equipment. First he drops War/Peace, then Feast/Famine, then Body/Mind. I make it to 6 mana with 3 life to my name, and drop Deed@3. He plays a pair of Mirran Crusader, which I use my other Deed to get rid of (my opening hand had two). He then drops Elspeth and looks really sad when I Scapeshift for arbitrary amounts of damage.

R4: Loam Pox.

This is actually a scary matchup, made all the scarier because it's for all the marbles. It's a weird match -- Explorer is at a nut-high here, but he has a TON of answers for Huntmaster. Thragtusk is big game, though.

Game one I open on Explorer. He Inquisitions me, and is forced to take a Cabal Therapy, as that's the only thing <3 in my hand. This enables me to t2 a Huntmaster, which does some good work before he Cursed Scrolls it after making it flip back. He has me on the Rack, and we're both under ten life pretty quickly. I keep drawing lands and Wood Elves instead of Burning Wishes, Deeds, or Green Suns. My lack of business eventually kills me.

Game two I again open Explorer. I have Phy Tower in my opener, along with a Thragtusk. I figure he can't beat a t2 Thragtusk, so I'm feeling pretty good. He plays a land and passes. I draw Garruk Primal, and get dirrrrrrrrrrrty. T2 Primal Hunter pretty much carries the game. Thragtusk isn't able to join the party for a few turns because of land disruption, but when he does, my opponent scoops on the spot.

Game three I'm pretty worried because he's on the play, and I'm mulling to 6. My 6 is Badlands, Swamp, Top, Explorer, Avenger, Burning Wish. He leads off with Cursed Scroll and passes. I drop my Top and ship it back after drawing Taiga for my turn. He double Raven's Crimes me. I discard Avenger and something else. I then proceed to gamble:

He has 3 cards in hand, 2 lands in play, with Raven's Crime in the yard. My potential line of play is to Burning Wish for Reanimate. If he has 3 lands in play and draws a land for turn, he can empty my hand, although I can protect myself somewhat by drawing off of Top, and still keep the Reanimate as my sole card in hand. This is also presuming that he doesn't have / draw an Inquisition or a Hymn. He also runs at least one Bojuka Bog, a singleton Surgical and a singleton Extirpate.

In the end, I hear the dice rolling in my head Mat Cauthon style, and I go for it -- I raw Wish for Reanimate and pass the turn.

He doesn't get there.

On my turn, I reanimate Avenger + 3 plants, play Explorer finally, and pass back.

His draw for the turn: Bojuka Bog.

Needless to say, even with only 3 plants, he can't handle a t3 Avenger, and dies shortly thereafter.

-----------

So, thoughts on the changes.

I saw Garruk Primal twice -- the first time was vs BUGStill, and it got immediately countered. The second was as above, vs Pox, where it carried a game on its own -- as I would expect it to do whenever I get the Primal + Tower + Explorer opener....which is admittedly not often. But it is nice to have -that- strong of a nut draw. Triple green was no problem for me at any stage, in stark contrast to the problems I was having hitting triple black. Primal's definitely getting some more testing. I'd kind of like to find room for a second copy just so I could see it more often, but I have no idea what I would cut for him. Unfortunately I can't Burning Wish for him, unlike Promise. #trollface

Collective Voyage was actually more useful for me tonight than it had been in the past -- I went for it twice; once vs BUGStill and once vs 12post. I was actively mana screwed vs 12post -- 4 lands + a Top, with Top not showing me a shuffle or any additional lands. Voyage helped me dig out that game. Vs BUGStill I just wanted to ramp harder to get to my fat stuff sooner. I'm less sure about Voyage now in general, so it'll probably stick around for a bit of additional testing. It does make the deck incredibly consistent for a deck with 0 fetchlands. Like, turning Burning Wish into ramp/fixing can dig you out of the one class of hands that can cause you to lose to yourself. It may be that it's one of those cards that you rarely wish for, but will win you games when you need it to be there. Kind of like Reanimate, which once again earned its keep last night. I won't say that I go for Reanimate very often -- but when I do, it almost always wins me the game.

[slikwilly]

Still, it's awesome that we get the recognition of front-page on Daily MTG -- and for Tim especially. Although, I do worry that the only effect will be to create a new set of functional retards who pick up the deck because it looks cool, and then proceed to suck with it and drag the deck's reputation through the dirt some more.

Oh man, that could be me :) I do love me some Nic Fit, and every time I play something else I find myself wishing I were playing Nic Fit but I really should keep my results with the deck to myself lest anyone blame the deck (good) and not the pilot (mediocre).

So for those going to Milwaukee in a couple weeks, anyone care to hazard a guess about the meta? Is day 1 of Strasbourg going to have any influence?

[Star|Scream]

Arianrhod. have you outlined your SB strategies specifically with Scapewish in the past?

[HoneyT]

@GP Denver
Tim: "Do you have any red 4/4 Dragon tokens?"
Me: "What in sweet baby Jesus's holy mother's name are you playing!?!?"


Yeah, what a mess, lol.

"Tim Wilson recently made the Top 8 of StarCityGames.com Open: Kansas City with a deck called Nic Fit...
...
...
...
—and Broodmate Dragon is a good choice in a format with Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt. The point is that this is a fun deck that has good disruptive elements and ramp, which let you play much sweeter big spells than other Legacy decks."

And that is the entirety of the "article" that isn't wrong. Nonetheless it is nice to see the deck get some attention.


Still, it's awesome that we get the recognition of front-page on Daily MTG -- and for Tim especially. Although, I do worry that the only effect will be to create a new set of functional retards who pick up the deck because it looks cool, and then proceed to suck with it and drag the deck's reputation through the dirt some more.


The Source needs a "like" button.

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod. have you outlined your SB strategies specifically with Scapewish in the past?

No, I haven't. I don't really like going over sideboard strategies...mostly because I don't have them. I sideboard differently for each match, oftentimes based on my opponent. My read of my opponent and his specific list (not just his archetype) influences my choices. I can give some general guidelines, though, if you can give me a few matchups in specific that you want advice on.

I will note that one thing to keep in mind is that sideboarding out a Cabal Therapy and/or a Green Sun's Zenith is sometimes correct vs some matchups -- you can adjust your Burning Wish toolbox with those two options should it be necessary. Running the 4 Therapieas and 4 Green Suns all main is not necessarily correct for every matchup. One matchup where I would normally board out a Green Sun would be BUGStill - except I don't vs my personal BUGStill list (the one that it seems I always play vs because I loan it out to my friends and then get paired with it). This is because I know that my personal BUGStill list runs 3 Snares, 2 Snapcasters, and 2 BEBs in the board, which makes Burning Wish substantially less useful. In fact, I usually board out 1 or 2 Burning Wishes in that matchup because of that fact.

However, a lot of other BUGStill lists either don't run Snapcaster, or they don't run BEB, or they don't run / run fewer Snares. In those cases, boarding out a Green Sun and leaving in the Burning Wishes is usually correct.

See what I mean? lol -- I can give you general advice on specific matchups if you have issues with something, or just want to know my thoughts, but I actively dislike "sideboard strategies" because all too often, you need to adjust those strategies so much that having in the first place becomes meaningless.

[Star|Scream]

Well, basically I'm trying to figure out which blue decks deserve the blasts and/or slaughter games.

Do you only side in 2 slaughter games to have more virtual copies (wish) maindeck?

And aside from the wish and a gsz, what usually comes out?

[Arianrhod]

Well, basically I'm trying to figure out which blue decks deserve the blasts and/or slaughter games.

Do you only side in 2 slaughter games to have more virtual copies (wish) maindeck?

And aside from the wish and a gsz, what usually comes out?

Generally speaking, it depends on how heavily the blue deck in question leans on Jace or whether they have a combo element. RIP Miracles is the deck that sends me slamming Slaughter Games the hardest. They have a combo element that needs attacked (Rip/helm) and Jace is their primary backup wincon, with their secondary backup (Entreat) being easily solved by just sitting a Deed on the table).

BUGStill has two lines of winning: Jace ult protected by oodles of removal/counter, or Manlands.beatdown. If you strip out their Jaces, they are FORCED to attack you with manlands to win, which means you can junk up their engine by Deeding@0, playing Huntmasters/Thragtusks/Avenger, Ruination or Sowing Salt in particular, and so on. Also, Jace is a 4-of blue card, which makes their Forces worse.

Esperblade I don't usually bring in the Slaugter Games vs. They just don't lean on Jace hard enough -- he usually sits there brainstorming every turn, and while he's annoying, he's usually like a 2-of. It's just not worth boarding anything out for them.

Generally, if Jace is a 3- or a 4-of, then bring Slaughter Games in specifically for Jace.

------------

Alternatively, combo decks.

Taking TES's Burning Wishes, Sneak's Emrakuls, OmniTell's Omnisciences, Belcher's Belchers, High Tide's Time Spirals, RIP's/enchantress's Helms, Dredge's Dread Returns, and so on is all big game. So you board them in there.

12post is a unique scenario. I'm increasingly becoming convinced that it's correct to take their Crop Rotations, because we can ramp to 7-9 faster than they can -- they can just go further than we can, into the 15-25 range. If they don't have Crop Rotation -> Glacial Chasm, we should easily be able to kill them before they drop space monsters.

12post is also the ONLY deck where I board in all 3 Slaughter Games. This is because there is never a situation where you want to Burning Wish for Slaughter Games over Ruination. Otherwise, I'm of the opinion that it's always correct to leave one Games in the board to Wish for and increase your effective copies of.

------------

The Red Blasts depend on how blue the deck is. Something like BUGStill sees all 3 windmill slammed. Esperblade....isn't a very blue deck. I usually only board in a pair of them there.

So like, consider Esperblade as an example.

Let's say the opponent is on a very stock Esperblade list...nothing that seems unusual to me. My "standard" plan pre-tweaking would be to go

+2 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Veteran Explorer

The rationale is that Esperblade is a heavy attrition deck. Being able to turn your Burning Wishes into a Green Sun's Zenith is a powerful thing in this matchup. You also don't have a large number of relevant wish targets vs Esperblade, so you want to increase the number of things you actually want to wish for. Trimming out one Veteran makes sense because they can accelerate to the same degree that we can, and while we use it better, we want to keep them on 2-3 lands as opposed to 4-5. 4-5 means that they can use Snapcaster better, they can hardcast Force (very relevant since they aren't a very blue deck), they can play+flashback Lingering Souls, they can drop jace, they can drop Elspeth, and/or they can Clique+Karakas lock. Therefore, Esperblade is a good deck to use Veterans as deterrents to attack / Swords bait, but lean on Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves as your actual ramp.

Miracles, then. Again, assume perfect stock list and opponent, no tweaking.

+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Slaughter Games
+1 Scapeshift
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
-4 Burning Wish
-3 Veteran Explorer
-1 Cabal Therapy

Explorer is obvious here. Miracles is one of the few decks that has as many basics as we do, and ramping them is usually a death sentence. They're glacially slow, so we can afford to lean on Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves.

Most Miracles lists rely fairly heavily on their CounterTop engine to protect themselves. Red Blast is good to stop Counterbalance from landing if possible. Slaughter Games goes after Jace and Helm. The Scapeshift and Pulse come in because they're useful to have, and we're boarding the Wishes out. You board the Wishes out here because of the danger of Counterbalance. If they assemble CounterTop, then Burning Wish becomes real bad. It's much harder for them to counter Scapeshift or Pulse than it is Burning Wish, even if we'll see them with less frequency.

It MAY be correct to just give up on the Counterbalance fight and leave the REBs in the board in lieu of more fringe wish targets, but I like forcing them to deal with the threat of REB. Sometimes REB will win the Counterbalance war. Sometimes they'll have to draw off of Top to counter the REB, which will leave them vulnerable to a higher-drop threat. Sometimes you can Deed away the Counterbalance and the REBs are live again. It varies.

Now, here's one of those tweaking things we were talking about. Sometimes they only run 1 or 2 Counterbalances main. If you suspect that your opponent isn't running Counterbalance or isn't heavily committing to it, you can leave the Wishes in and the Wish targets in the sideboard. In that event, you would just go:

+3 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Slaughter Games
-3 Veteran Explorer
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Burning Wish

I still like shaving a Wish here. The danger of Blue Blast out of Miracles is VERY high -- they typically pack it for other problems that they face, but they'll bring it in vs us.

Here's a sample BUGStill list that got posted today in Caleb's article on CFB. I personally don't like it, but it's a good starting point because the nameless durdle masses will see it in a CFB article and build it, whether it's good or not.

Main Deck
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Standstill
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Engineered Plague

This deck has NOTHING against Burning Wish, unlike mine which has 3 Snare + 2 BEB + 2 Snap. Vs this deck you wouldn't board out the Burning Wishes, at all. Instead, you would likely do something like:

+3 REB
+2 Slaughter Games
-1 Pernicious Deed
-2 Huntmaster of the Fells
-1 Thragtusk
-1 Green Sun's Zenith

This list is weird, since you'll likely see Tarmogoyf main. Goyfs and Deathrites will encourage you to keep in more Deeds than you usually would, as well as having to keep in more Thragtusks and at least one Huntmasters. This seems like a weird thing to want to take out, since Huntmaster and Thragtusk both require BUGStill to invest more resources in dealing with them, but in my experience, they're the better Deed deck. We don't need their lifegain here. Our plan vs BUGStill is to go to the big-game with Primeval, Avenger, and Scapeshift combo-kill. Going aggro against BUGStill won't work very well. Huntmaster in particular is usually ass here, because they have Disfigure, Abrupt Decay (for when he flips), and Mishra's Factory -- alongside Goyf, who will be bigger than he will, Snapcaster, who can flash-trade, and Pernicious Deed for the sweep. You can't bog down fighting them at their own game.

Boarding out the Green Sun increases our accessibility to it, which is important to establish Avenger or Primeval.

The Wish decision tree for BUGStill looks something like this:

If no nat.draw Slaughter Games, Wish for Slaughter Games, take Jace.
If nat.draw Slaughter Games, then Wish for the situation:
If land-light, Wish for Ramp
If opponent has been Therapied and you have lethal lands, Wish for Scapeshift
Else Wish for Green Sun (pref. for Primeval or Avenger; also for E.Wit to regrow Scapeshift)

The last option is usually only after your sideboarded Scapeshift has been countered or if you have some reason to not Scapeshift (they have an onboard Wasteland and you're at 7 lands, for example).

---------

tl;dr -- always have a plan with your wishes in your board. Don't board out Green Sun just for the sake of boarding it out. I only board it out in really heavy attrition matchups where you need that extra threat, AND where you think you'll be able to resolve Burning Wish, AND where you don't have 3 or 4 options that are better. Like, consider Jund. Jund is the type of deck where you might want to board out a Green Sun. But vs Jund, you'll ALWAYS wish for something else. You'll Ruinate their mana base, or you'll just win, or you'll want to Pyroclasm their board, or so on. BUGStill is very close to this threshold, but it's a bit different because you need to worry about your Wished Scapeshift getting countered, so you want something else that you can Wish for when you go big.

See what I mean? It's a weird subject. Unfortunately, I can't just download my knowledge about how the play the deck into everyone's heads, lol.

[Star|Scream]

See what I mean? It's a weird subject. Unfortunately, I can't just download my knowledge about how the play the deck into everyone's heads, lol.

But that's exactly why I asked the question. I'll be playing the deck for the first time next Saturday and want to be as prepared as I can be. Thank you for the detailed response!

[Arianrhod]

But that's exactly why I asked the question. I'll be playing the deck for the first time next Saturday and want to be as prepared as I can be. Thank you for the detailed response!

Gotcha. Best of luck! If you have any other questions, by all means just ask.

[TerribleTim68]

So here's my struggle. I been following this thread for quite some time. I have not played this deck in a competitive match, just solitairing it to get use to how it draws. I started with a G/B/w Rector-Fit list but have been putting the pieces together for a decent G/B/r Scapewish list. Insert dilemma here. I'm struggling with the pros/cons of each list in trying to find the one I actually like or think has a better chance in my U heavy meta (I've always stuck with playing U because your own FoW is usually the best answer to theirs. Run it or die to it.).

I like that the G/B/w Rector-Fit list has, well, Rector. It really is a great tutor, and it can tutor up a singleton answers like RiP (manaless dredge can be a thing in my meta) or Fetters in a pinch (No, I don't own a Moat. No, I can't afford to get one.). What I don't like about RiP is that it kills my Recurring Nightmare plan. I also like that the G/B/w list seems to have more life gain. But that may just be me. I do find it a bit slow. Lines like the Yosi soft lock take a lot of time to set up and get online. The whole deck seems very mana dependent and if your ramp fails you're in trouble. I also worry about the ramp helping them out too much too. But that could be said about either list.

As for the G/B/r list, first let me say that I only own a single Thragtusk and only 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. I'm sure the additional copy of each of those makes a big difference, but money rules right now. What I have found, or at least I feel, about this list is that the land base can be sketchy at times. I love the whole combo-esque Scapeshift deal, but I've struggled with it's deployment. I've either been in spots where I couldn't shift enough mountains to deal lethal or I didn't have Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle online. Is there a line of play that works best here? Can you give me a "Here's how you work it" step by step bit? Do you want to work toward Primetime tutoring up the Valakuts, then shift or is there an ideal play line here I'm missing? Or is it just something you can't really outline? I've also found that you really only shift once because after that you're out of mountains. Is that true? The one thing I love about the G/B/r list is Slaughter Games! This wrecks U decks and if I'm not playing U I want this kind of advantage!

Also, has anyone tried running Bojuka Bog in these lists to deal with Dredge? Is it maybe a SB thing? Is it something RiP handles better in the W list? Thoughts?

Eventually I'll take this to my LGS, I'm just not sure which list yet and I'm not very confident with it right now. But you can't keep playing Sneak/Show forever because they know what you got when you walk in the door. :mad:

[TheArchitect]

As for the G/B/r list, first let me say that I only own a single Thragtusk and only 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. I'm sure the additional copy of each of those makes a big difference, but money rules right now. What I have found, or at least I feel, about this list is that the land base can be sketchy at times. I love the whole combo-esque Scapeshift deal, but I've struggled with it's deployment. I've either been in spots where I couldn't shift enough mountains to deal lethal or I didn't have Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle online. Is there a line of play that works best here? Can you give me a "Here's how you work it" step by step bit? Do you want to work toward Primetime tutoring up the Valakuts, then shift or is there an ideal play line here I'm missing? Or is it just something you can't really outline? I've also found that you really only shift once because after that you're out of mountains. Is that true? The one thing I love about the G/B/r list is Slaughter Games! This wrecks U decks and if I'm not playing U I want this kind of advantage!

I dont think you understand how valakut works with scapeshift. You dont need to have the valakuts out first, and I dont think Ive ever, in hundreds of games, had to scapeshift for mountains twice in a game and then not had enough to kill. And only once, in all those games did I not have enough mountains in my deck to kill someone with a scapeshift (against MUD, after a grindy game of batterskulls and wurmcoils he didnt die to my shift for 52).

You cast scapeshift with 7 lands out usually, sac them all and get 6 mountains and a valakut. They all come in at the same time, and valakut triggers for all 6 mountains. For each mountain the trigger checks to see if there are 5 other mountains (and as long as one of your non-basic mountains dont get wastelanded) there will be and so you deal 18 damage to the dome. You can also shift with 8 lands out to get 2 valakuts and 6 mountains, or the wasteland proof plan 1 valakut and 7 mountains. With 8 lands you deal 36 or 21 damage respectively, which is sometimes needed if they have StpS and a big creature of their own, lifegainer, they didnt fetch/thoughtseize/etc, or they have a wasteland they are saving.

Ideally, you never play a valakut until you find one off scapeshift, but sometimes you are forced to because it is stuck in your hand. If it is, and you are worried about your valakut getting wasted before you can shift, just bait the waste with other non-basics, then play your valakut.

With primetitan valakut plan, it depends how many mountains you have. If you are at 5 mountains, usually getting 1 vala, 1 mountain is best, because you can deal 3 damage to something now, and then the next turn get 1 more vala, and 1 mountain to deal 6 damage. But you can also just get the valakuts first to turn any more mountains you draw into 6 damage. If you have 4 mountains, get 2 valakuts and then deal 12 next turn, if you have less than 4 mountains out, just get fetchlands or mountains.

*note, However I will almost always get volraths stronghold, and sometimes phyrexian tower, off my first prime titan trigger. Only the phyrexian tower if they have white/exile removal. And then that insures me I can recur my creatures (including the primetitan) even in the face of removal. I only ever rush the valakuts if I NEED that clock, or I know their deck doesnt have removal.



Ive lost faith in rector from a competitive standpoint. Too many of their cards are too narrow and just clog up the hand. More often than not, I just find myself wishing all the enchantments, rectors and cards like rusulka or yosei were just StpS, goyfs or thoughtseizes. Its very fun and powerful, but too often implodes on itself. But, if I were to play rector, I dont think Id play RiP, but if I did I wouldnt care if half my deck was useless against dredge, because their entire deck would be rendered useless.

[Arianrhod]

So here's my struggle. I been following this thread for quite some time. I have not played this deck in a competitive match, just solitairing it to get use to how it draws. I started with a G/B/w Rector-Fit list but have been putting the pieces together for a decent G/B/r Scapewish list. Insert dilemma here. I'm struggling with the pros/cons of each list in trying to find the one I actually like or think has a better chance in my U heavy meta (I've always stuck with playing U because your own FoW is usually the best answer to theirs. Run it or die to it.).

I like that the G/B/w Rector-Fit list has, well, Rector. It really is a great tutor, and it can tutor up a singleton answers like RiP (manaless dredge can be a thing in my meta) or Fetters in a pinch (No, I don't own a Moat. No, I can't afford to get one.). What I don't like about RiP is that it kills my Recurring Nightmare plan. I also like that the G/B/w list seems to have more life gain. But that may just be me. I do find it a bit slow. Lines like the Yosi soft lock take a lot of time to set up and get online. The whole deck seems very mana dependent and if your ramp fails you're in trouble. I also worry about the ramp helping them out too much too. But that could be said about either list.

As for the G/B/r list, first let me say that I only own a single Thragtusk and only 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. I'm sure the additional copy of each of those makes a big difference, but money rules right now. What I have found, or at least I feel, about this list is that the land base can be sketchy at times. I love the whole combo-esque Scapeshift deal, but I've struggled with it's deployment. I've either been in spots where I couldn't shift enough mountains to deal lethal or I didn't have Valakut, The Molten Pinnacle online. Is there a line of play that works best here? Can you give me a "Here's how you work it" step by step bit? Do you want to work toward Primetime tutoring up the Valakuts, then shift or is there an ideal play line here I'm missing? Or is it just something you can't really outline? I've also found that you really only shift once because after that you're out of mountains. Is that true? The one thing I love about the G/B/r list is Slaughter Games! This wrecks U decks and if I'm not playing U I want this kind of advantage!

Also, has anyone tried running Bojuka Bog in these lists to deal with Dredge? Is it maybe a SB thing? Is it something RiP handles better in the W list? Thoughts?

Eventually I'll take this to my LGS, I'm just not sure which list yet and I'm not very confident with it right now. But you can't keep playing Sneak/Show forever because they know what you got when you walk in the door. :mad:

Well, I think you pretty much can play Sneak forever, because it's like bringing a rocket launcher to a knife fight. I've never found an effective way to fight that damn deck.

But anyway.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Scapeshifting
-OR-
Valakut and You: A Love Story

Okay, at the most basic level, Valakut works via layers. Valakut says, hey kid, I'm a computer...

... wrong meme.

When you have 5 other mountains in play ----> Valakut trigger. This means that the 6th mountain to come into play will generate a trigger.

So, when you Scapeshift, you get a Valakut and 6 Mountain-cards at minimum. Valakut will check each Mountain entering play to see if it can trigger. But, you see, since all 6 come into play at the same time, Valakut will "see" each Mountain as being the 6th Mountain, thereby generating a trigger for 18 damage total. 8 lands means 2 Valakuts + 6 Mountains for 36 damage. And so on.

Now, as for Primeval Titan: you can apply the same logic here. Your goal with Primeval is to make it so that when you declare attack with Primeval the next time (or when it comes into play), you have a board state consisting of a Valakut (or 2) and FOUR mountains. If you have, let's say a Valakut +4, and you play or attack with Titan, you can fetch two Mountains. Since these Mountains come into play at the same time, Valakut will treat each of these Mountains as the "6th" Mountain, thereby triggering and doing damage. Also note that on Primeval swing, you get these lands. So you can kill blockers with Mountains, and then the Titan damage is still coming through.

If you're having trouble with maintaining Mountain count, you're probably fetching Mountains too aggressively. My gameplan with developing my mana base is to have several basic Forests, a basic Swamp, a basic Mountain, a Taiga or a Badlands, and as many of my 3 Bayous as I can find in play. You don't WANT to have a "balanced" mana base. You want to play it as though you're playing G/B Nic Fit with a red splash. You want as few mountains in play as you can get away with -- usually the answer is two. Try to make one basic, so that you don't get Wasted off of red, and then usually you're have a Taiga or a Stomping Ground or a Badlands in play that you naturally drew. That's fine. But like, when you play Wood Elves, say - you want to tutor for a Bayou or a Forest with him, almost every time. You want as few Mountains in play until you are Titaning or Scapeshifting as possible.

Speaking of Titan, what I do with him depends on my board state. If I have a Valakut+3 or a Valakut+4 in play already, I'll usually set up to start Titaning. If I have 0 Valakuts in play, or like Valakut + 1, or some such, then I'll usually get just more Bayous/Forests/Swamps with him and stay on the Scapeshift plan.

Also, if you're playing vs Wasteland, keep in mind that you can get blown out if your opponent actually knows how Valakut works. If your opponent is sandbagging a Wasteland in play and you Scapeshift, you need to do the count mentally at X+1. If you need 18 damage, then you need to Shift with 8 lands in play, getting 1 Valakut + 7 Mountains. This is because if you do the usual 1+6 for 18, they can Wasteland one of your Mountains in response to the Valakut triggers. That way, the Valakut will see you as only having 5 mountains in play, and none of them will trigger. So for each Wasteland left sitting in play, you need to add one Mountain to the Shift count.

--------------------

If you don't have a 2nd Thragtusk or 3rd Huntmaster, that's a hell of a lot less damaging to you than if you don't have a Moat and want to play Rector. Also, if your meta is very control/blue, then Scapewish is going to be better in the meta anyway than Rector. Rector would be fine, but Scapewish is slightly better. Manaless is a weird nut to crack just in general. Nic Fit is somewhat naturally predisposed towards annoying Dredge because we sacrifice as a means of ramping, which poofs Bridge from Belows. But it's a really strange matchup.

The real deck-breaker with Scapewish is the mana base and the Burning Wishes. Almost anything else can be worked around, I'd say. But the deck NEEDS 4 Wishes and it NEEDS the duals because there's no other way to make the mana work. You need Mountains for Valakut, basics for Explorer and Sakura-Tribe, and you can't afford room for fetches, so you need like 6 Taigas to have effective green sources while maintaining Mountain count (this is where the 2 Stomping Grounds come in).

Does that help a bit, Tim?

[TerribleTim68]

Thanks for the replies guys. I do understand how Valakut triggers and all that. The struggle was in the actual play lines. So that helps a bit. I'll play around some more.

Again, thanks.

[Star|Scream]

Played on MWS some last night with Scapewish. Lost to BUG Cascade (2 different versions) and Merfolk (with standstills and cliques) but beat B/G Pox. I just couldn't keep up with their card advantage, double hymns, etc.

Edit: Also, I suck.

[Arianrhod]

Played on MWS some last night with Scapewish. Lost to BUG Cascade (2 different versions) and Merfolk (with standstills and cliques) but beat B/G Pox. I just couldn't keep up with their card advantage, double hymns, etc.

Merfolk should have been fairly easy -- you have Deeds, ramp into aforementioned Deeds, Therapies to make sure that Deeds resolve, BW for sweep (kind of), and no Islands. Huntmaster and Tusk are both really good vs fish, as well -- ditto with the ramp dudes. Sakura-Tribe and Wood Elves are good at getting through their tempo while chumping on the way.

BUG Cascade is weird. My best advice there is to lean on Top heavily. They're GOING to out CA you -- that's just a fact of life. Hymn to Tourach periodically is GOING to win them games. Basically, what you need to do in that matchup is deploy ramp guys, generate mana, and float what you want to be doing with your Top -- try not to draw it, because if you let goodstuff sit in your hand, they're going to make you pitch it.

Also, try to not fire off Therapies too prematurely. They need to attack on the ground, so you can use the combat step as your sac-outlet for Explorers. Save your Therapies for when you need a spell to resolve.

Oh, and don't just run out Deed on t3 or whatever without the mana to crack it. They're going to be looking for Decay targets since their Decays are largely dead. That means that they'll probably have one or two stranded in their hand. Save Deed to play + crack on the same turn if you can.

Another trick, speaking of Decay. If you know that you're going to be shuffling your deck this turn, Draw off Top on your upkeep. A Top in your graveyard is much better than a Top shuffled back in your deck (BUG players will typically Decay your Top in response to a shuffle effect, to try to get you to shuffle it away. A dead Top can come back with Eternal Witness. A shuffled Top cannot.

[Star|Scream]

The one deck played baleful strix, jitte, and countertop to counter my deeds!

And the merfolk player was able to tap down all my creatures with triple reejeries and alpha strike.


/ragequit

[Arianrhod]

The one deck played baleful strix, jitte, and countertop to counter my deeds!

And the merfolk player was able to tap down all my creatures with triple reejeries and alpha strike.


/ragequit

Meh. I wouldn't take that as meaningful testing, then, honestly. Shit like that happens -- in paper magic we call it having a bad day.

[Siiig]

Meh. I wouldn't take that as meaningful testing, then, honestly. Shit like that happens -- in paper magic we call it having a bad day.

I know this feel. I was playing on Tuesday in a sudo-tournament with my testing group. My friend Rich was playing 'Muica with a singleton snappy in place of a geist of saint taft. I don't remember the specifics, but I lost the final game because he drew snappy. Maybe snap swords on primetime? Something annoying like that.

[Ayotte]

Meh. I wouldn't take that as meaningful testing, then, honestly. Shit like that happens -- in paper magic we call it having a bad day.

I've played maybe 4 matches vs. RUG and I never get a decent 6 or 7 card hand. Contrary to popular belief, RUG is my worst matchup :cool:

Anyway, I played Tao's BUG list at a local tournament yesterday to try it out before Milwaukee. I beat UB Delver and Aluren and lost to RUG and Elves.

UB Delver I won off of Deeds into Jace + Liliana both games.

Lost to RUG off of a mull to 4 then a mull to 5. See above. I almost had him game 1. My starting hand was land, land, veteran, Wurmcoil Engine. He bolted then stifled my explorer and beat down with 2 mongeese and a delver. On my last turn, I was at 9 with deed in hand with 3 lands and an explorer on the board. I knew he had one bolt in hand, so I was dead and I had to play deed and blow it for 0 to kill his insect, which was sad because with 1 more land I could have killed all of his creatures. Unfortunately, he had another bolt which meant I was dead anyway.

Won game 1 vs elves off of a bunch of blind therapy hits and deeds.
Game 2 I swept his board but he ripped glimpse with a single elf in his hand and ended it there.
Game 3 I mulled to 5 and died to emrakul on turn 3.

The aluren match was a lot of fun. Game 1 I let her intuition for 3 recruiters. I played a deed and sat on it for 4 mana. When she tried to go off with Aluren in play, I let her get the last recruiter and then I blew deed for 4 when she tried to play dream stalker. She was left with dream stalker in play with all recruiters in the graveyard. Unfortunately, my only clock was Thrun which isn't very good at attacking into dream stalker. Eventually I got a 9/9 Ooze attacking with a Jace in play. I made a mistake here and brainstormed with Jace instead of fatesealing her, which meant she drew raven familiar into cavern harpy with aluren and parasitic strix in play and killed me.
Game 2 she Intuitioned for Recruiters again. She played Aluren, which I attempted to Force, which she Forced, which I responded with by extirpating her Recruiters. Interestingly enough, the fact that I couldn't find surgical extractions and used extirpate instead won me this game, because she couldn't counter extirpate and I stopped the combo. Ooze got there in the end.
We started game 3 with 5 minutes left so I boarded some creatures back in. Jace + Thrun + Negate/FoW went the distance.

The deck was a lot of fun. I really liked having FoW in the board.

[mikeisgo]

So I'm completely new to Nic Fit. I've known of its existence for a while, but got interested in it in the past few months really. Something I've been wondering is whats the game plan again the emergence of hexproof or shroud creatures like Nimble Mongoose or Geist of Saint Traft. I was looking at the Punishing Fire build of the deck, and I couldn't really see ways around it.

[Ayotte]

So I'm completely new to Nic Fit. I've known of its existence for a while, but got interested in it in the past few months really. Something I've been wondering is whats the game plan again the emergence of hexproof or shroud creatures like Nimble Mongoose or Geist of Saint Traft. I was looking at the Punishing Fire build of the deck, and I couldn't really see ways around it.

Pernicious Deed.

[Alexeezay]

Arianrhod, I saw in your latest Scapewish Sideboard that you got 2 Pithing Needles. When do they come in and why? :)

Also, I'm gonna try out big Garruk in Scapewish at the tourney tomorrow, just not sure if I should cut Wickerbough Elder for the 2nd Garruk.
Maybe the 4th Pernicious Deed is good right now with all the Geist of Saint Traft and so on?

[Nithkar]

Hey guys,

So, i'm building a Punishing Nic Fit based mostly on HoneyT's version, so first thing want to I him. Second, i have a few questions. First, i found myself preferring to play with a 2nd Thragtusk (http://magiccards.info/query?q=thragtusk&v=card&s=cname) over the 2nd Huntmaster (http://magiccards.info/dka/en/140a.html). That because i feel that i want more tusk against decks that roll StP (http://magiccards.info/ddf/en/22.html), so that's the one i want a 2nd copy. Is this wrong?

2nd, i saw on earlier versions of the punishing fire build the usage of living wish. Is it worth it? i was thinking on playing this card, but that would result on abandoning carpet of flowers on the sideboard, living 5 slots for living wish targets (Grove (http://magiccards.info/v12/en/8.html), Magus of the Moon (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/101.html), Bojuka bog (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/267.html), Veteran Explorer (http://magiccards.info/cmd/en/177.html), ??) and the rest for combo hate. is that any other good target for wish?

TY in advance

[Tao]

Thragtusk and Huntmaster are similar in what they do. They help to stabilize against Aggro, 2 for 1 against Control and sometimes they randomly win against an opponent who just can't deal with this specific threat. In terms of "power level for mana cost" they are also equal so I don't think it makes a big difference which one you use as a 2-off.

I have tried Living Wish quite often and I have never been able to make it work. In theory it sounded good, but in testing it was always underwhelming. It is a bit too clunky and the SB slots are important - try to take 5 cards out of HoneyT's sideboard and you will see how much it would hurt the post board games.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

Hello nic fitters,
I've been following this thread for a while, and I'm thinking of getting my hands on the deck. The question is which version, as there are so many. My meta has a lot of stoneblade, and there's some junk, death and taxes, team america, BUG, burn, storm, sneak and show, aggro loam and quite a few others but it's inconsistent who shows up each week. One week I might see goblins or elves but then never see it for another 2 months or something. Does Nic Fit have game against these decks? I'm mainly worried about stone blade, as that's the most popular deck in my meta.

I don't think I want to buy 4 badlands, so scapeshift is out, but would green/white/black (I have the white duals), red with punishing fire (I have some taigas) or just straight G/B be a good choice? Or would I just be shooting myself in the foot buying into nic fit? Anyway, I'm thinking of something like this:

3 Bayou
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Eternal Witness
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Grave Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Treetop Village
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wall of Blossoms
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

Is that a decent list? Let me know what you think.

[Tao]

I think this is a good G/B list. My thoughts:

For the maindeck:
- It has not enough Tops. Play a third and consider a fourth. I would play 4. You have 9 removal spells that prolong the game and, 8 discard spells that are dead sometimes and good late game cards that want to be found. Having a top in play almost always pays off the investment relatively quick.
- Also try how the mana works for you and consider a 23d land because you have 2 Treetop Villages, Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold as lands with inferior mana production and Hymn/Garruk PH are demanding a lot of colored Mana.

For the SB:
- Why Tormod's Crypt? Surgical/Extirpate help in the same matchups and are useful against all other combo decks and some Control matchups.
- Don't play Diabolic Edict. It was a great solution for big guys until they printed Griselbrand. Getting 14 for 1'ed is not a pleasant feeling. If you need that effect against Aggro play Innocent Blood. Blood is amazing against RUG.
- Duress is great against Burn, Thoughtseize is better against Sneak and Tell and Elves. So unless you have a lot of Burn in your Meta I would play TS over Duress.

[sherko7]

Hello nic fitters,
I've been following this thread for a while, and I'm thinking of getting my hands on the deck. The question is which version, as there are so many. My meta has a lot of stoneblade, and there's some junk, death and taxes, team america, BUG, burn, storm, sneak and show, aggro loam and quite a few others but it's inconsistent who shows up each week. One week I might see goblins or elves but then never see it for another 2 months or something. Does Nic Fit have game against these decks? I'm mainly worried about stone blade, as that's the most popular deck in my meta.

I don't think I want to buy 4 badlands, so scapeshift is out, but would green/white/black (I have the white duals), red with punishing fire (I have some taigas) or just straight G/B be a good choice? Or would I just be shooting myself in the foot buying into nic fit? Anyway, I'm thinking of something like this:

3 Bayou
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Eternal Witness
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Grave Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Treetop Village
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wall of Blossoms
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

Is that a decent list? Let me know what you think.

I've found the 2nd Ooze unnecessary, maybe a 2nd Thragtusk? Also I think 4 Hymns would be a bit too much. A well placed Therapy would usually make it close to dead :)

I think you would also want to fit in at least 1 Diabolic Intent. You kind of lack a sac outlet. Of course, worse comes to worst you can Abrupt Decay your own Explorer, but really there are a lot better ways to use that card. :)

[litenkatt]

I feel like i wanna try to scapewish deck for a change, I did play it before but grow tired of it quickly because of this combo meta here. (especially many renimate players)

But feels like latley more fair decks has been present so I want to give this a shot

few questions:

I've read many times that you needed that deed for the win but didnt draw it. So many times I've seen that, yet most lists only run 3 pernicious deed. Why?

2x pithing needle in sb, against what?

Why no pulverize in SB anymore? I loved that card

Appreciate answers!

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, I saw in your latest Scapewish Sideboard that you got 2 Pithing Needles. When do they come in and why? :)

Also, I'm gonna try out big Garruk in Scapewish at the tourney tomorrow, just not sure if I should cut Wickerbough Elder for the 2nd Garruk.
Maybe the 4th Pernicious Deed is good right now with all the Geist of Saint Traft and so on?


I feel like i wanna try to scapewish deck for a change, I did play it before but grow tired of it quickly because of this combo meta here. (especially many renimate players)

But feels like latley more fair decks has been present so I want to give this a shot

few questions:

I've read many times that you needed that deed for the win but didnt draw it. So many times I've seen that, yet most lists only run 3 pernicious deed. Why?

2x pithing needle in sb, against what?

Why no pulverize in SB anymore? I loved that card

Appreciate answers!

The list in my sig is slightly out of date -- I'll fix that this morning. The Needles -were- there as a hedge vs Sneak/Show and vs Liliana of the Veil -- because if you're losing to Jund, it's because of that skank. In practice, though, the Needles were very subpar and they were pretty quickly removed. Those two slots are currently (back to) the 3rd REB and a Collective Voyage as a wish bullet, to turn your Burning Wishes into ramp spells when needed.

The issue with the 4th Deed is that sometimes, you'll just hate life for playing it. Most hands are better with a Deed in them. However, sometimes you'll play vs decks where the Deed is just completely irrelevant, and you'll be annoyed. High Tide or Sneak are good examples of this. Even against things like Jund or Esperblade, where you want Deed, you never want 4, because you shouldn't have to sweep that many times. Sometimes you don't hit one and you die because of it -- I'll grant you that. But I'm okay with accepting that sacrifice because -not- playing the 4th Deed improves a lot of other games where you might have lost had that 4th Deed-slot not been whatever you would cut for the Deed.

Pulverize is out of my sideboard because nobody in my area is playing MUD anymore, so it just isn't necessary. That's a personal-meta thing -- if you've still got decks in your meta that Pulverize is good vs, then by all means run it. It's just not necessary in my meta atm.

------

Latest Scapewish testing: I really want to find room for a 2nd Primal Hunter. Just not sure where to make that slot right now =/ Also, Collective Voyage continues to impress. I may be specifically looking for situations where it's good too much, but basically, Scapewish has one slight chink in its armor, where it can die to its own inconsistencies -- this is the "heavy Burning Wish" draw -- you don't get many ramp dudes, or a Top, or anything. You just get stally stuff like Huntmasters or Thrags that you may or may not be able to cast, you get a few lands, maybe a Deed, and then a Burning Wish or three. Collective Voyage in the board helps solve this draw, and makes the deck actually horrifyingly consistent. Just remember the Golden Rule of Scapewish: if it doesn't have green mana, don't keep it. The sole exception is basic nonforest + Top, which is debatable as a keep depending on the matchup.

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Edit for value:

Upon examining Scapewish carefully, I can't find any slot maindeck that I am unhappy enough with to cut it for the 2nd Garruk. Huntmaster is ever so slightly worse in the metagame overall right now, but when you run into an unprepared opponent, he just runs the game by himself -- and these things tend to go in cycles, so he'll be "better" again before too long.

Now, the question is, should I stick with the 1-of Garruk with no way to tutor it, or would I be better served by making that slot into another GSZ option? I've attempted both the 4th Top and the 4th Deed in the past and actually been disappointed by both of them, so I think that isn't the way I want to go.

Question the second: Ruination in the sideboard, or might Plow Under be better? Alternatively: we can just accept that we're kold to land-based strategies (hi, Glacial Chasm. I see you lurking there), and move on with our lives. As I examined the list while updating it for my sig, it occurred to me that Ruination has been largely subpar overall. Even vs 12post, it doesn't seem like it happens that often -- and even when I'm specifically going as deep on basics as I can, Ruination is usually killing at least a couple of my lands too, which hurts. Furthermore, I don't like that Ruination is so narrow. It's not like Tsunami which is a good general purpose wish at any stage of the game vs blue.dec. Sure, you might nab a few of their Tundras -- but they'll probably nab a few of your Taigas too, and that sucks. So, I'm currently considering Plow Under for that slot, because that's a good option vs literally anyone. It at the very least delays any problematic utility lands, and it seems like it should be a gigantic kick in the nuts for 12post, although it doesn't just straight up kill them like Ruination does.

Thoughts?

[Star|Scream]

I couldn't find anything better than plow under to do what you're intending, but will taking out two lands really beat those decks?

Edit:

Also: While I love GPH, I'm not sure if adding yet another high-cost card to this deck is a good idea. As you've seen sometimes this deck just dies to its own manabase.

3rd: I would love to have a fourth top in the deck! First turn top off of a basic land is the best 1st turn play we can make. However I'm still trying to learn the deck so I won't be making any changes until I'm more comfortable with it.

[benofzongo]

I haven't played too many games against the little green men, but of those it was a pretty even split (maybe slightly in my favor?): with the recent SCG 1st place finish, what are people's thoughts on strategies pre- and post- board against Goblins? One of the guys I played against mentioned thragtusk recursion is pretty bad for them...and obviously board sweepers, but I feel like goblins can recover even from that (recruiter, matron, kiki-jiki, etc).

[TheArchitect]

I dont think the last SCG open will effect the meta at all. But Goblins is usually pretty easy, although I have lost to them in the past. Its all about the sweepers and haymakers. We cant do too much to stop ringleaders card advantage proactively. They will always draw one, or a matron, even if we rip their hand apart. Remove their important goblins like krenko or siege gang, but for the most part, just make sure you kill the lords that give them haste. Warchief is scary. He enables their explosive plays where they dump their hand and then swing with it in the same turn.

One big thing to keep in mind. They can use 2 basics often better than you can so be very careful setting off explorers. Only do it when their hand is clear of matrons and ringleaders.

If your playing scapewish, you can combo-race them and wish for pyroclasm if needed.

Punishing fire, its a grind fest, but one you should win eventually. Bait out their wastelands, because you will need your groves.

Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).

GB, you have the most room sweepers maindeck (damnation+deed) and room for EPlagues in your SB.

BUG, goblins might actually be a rougher matchup but I dont know to be honest.

[Star|Scream]

I haven't played too many games against the little green men, but of those it was a pretty even split (maybe slightly in my favor?): with the recent SCG 1st place finish, what are people's thoughts on strategies pre- and post- board against Goblins? One of the guys I played against mentioned thragtusk recursion is pretty bad for them...and obviously board sweepers, but I feel like goblins can recover even from that (recruiter, matron, kiki-jiki, etc).

Which version of the deck are you talking about?

[jbone2016]

I dont think the last SCG open will effect the meta at all. But Goblins is usually pretty easy, although I have lost to them in the past. Its all about the sweepers and haymakers. We cant do too much to stop ringleaders card advantage proactively. They will always draw one, or a matron, even if we rip their hand apart. Remove their important goblins like krenko or siege gang, but for the most part, just make sure you kill the lords that give them haste. Warchief is scary. He enables their explosive plays where they dump their hand and then swing with it in the same turn.

One big thing to keep in mind. They can use 2 basics often better than you can so be very careful setting off explorers. Only do it when their hand is clear of matrons and ringleaders.

If your playing scapewish, you can combo-race them and wish for pyroclasm if needed.

Punishing fire, its a grind fest, but one you should win eventually. Bait out their wastelands, because you will need your groves.

Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).

GB, you have the most room sweepers maindeck (damnation+deed) and room for EPlagues in your SB.

BUG, goblins might actually be a rougher matchup but I dont know to be honest.

I just played against goblins on Saturday. boarded in the fair package (sorin, elpseth, batterskull) and a thoughtsieze, humility. I rectored in the humility then dropped the batterskull. and that was game.

[benofzongo]

Sorry, forgot to mention I run GB at the moment.

[slikwilly]

Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).

Not entirely true. You need a clock otherwise if they land a Siege-Gang Commander you run a risk of getting pinged to death. We're definitely favored once a Moat comes down, but they can get there.


Sorry, forgot to mention I run GB at the moment.

I haven't run GB in a long time, but seems like Hornet Queen could be helpful, especially if you can recur it. Problem is living long enough to get it down.

[nudon]

Rector, they straight up lose to moat unless they are splashing gree/white (which is pretty rare).

The winner of yesterday's SCG open splashed both green and white.

[TheArchitect]

He has 2 Krosan Grips in his 75 and no way to filter for them. Killing someone, even from 10 life, with just a siege gang is pretty hard. All we have to do is remove the commander. Goblins is a matchup we should be pretty happy to have with this deck.

With GB in particular you should have 6 Deeds/damnations in your 75 and maybe an engineered plague in there too.

[Arianrhod]

He has 2 Krosan Grips in his 75 and no way to filter for them. Killing someone, even from 10 life, with just a siege gang is pretty hard. All we have to do is remove the commander. Goblins is a matchup we should be pretty happy to have with this deck.

With GB in particular you should have 6 Deeds/damnations in your 75 and maybe an engineered plague in there too.

Agreed. Don't get too cocky, because they can definitely blow you out -- but it's a favorable matchup overall. I'd estimate around 60/40--65-35 range. From the Rector version, they're also HORRIFIED of Baneslayer. It's actually kind of funny. Take that, Piledriver, you tool. They can usually Incinerator her away if they have one, but if they don't, she'll carry the game on her wings.

Basically,the way that we lose to goblins involves something like the following sequence:

t1 Lackey -> t2 Stingscourger/Incinerator on our Explorer, swing with Lackey, drop something arbitrarily stupid (SGC, Krenko, Ringleader, Warchief, etc).

However, most Goblins pilots won't see or won't use this line. They'll assume that it's better to hold their removal for the deck's bombs rather than try to get in underneath us. Just watch out for that line and you should be okay. Any hand with a castable Explorer is a snapkeep in the matchup -- ideally you want Explorer, a Therapy, and a sweeper.

-------

@Evan -- I'm assuming you're going to Mythic this weekend. Are you qualified yet, or do you need to do well at this one to make it?

[Arianrhod]

I'm actually working on the primer again. HoneyT -- did you manage to day 2 Denver? I have no data from Denver at all to add to the historical section. I know I missed Day 2 by one round at both GP Indy and GP Atlanta, but I don't have anything about Denver or any of the European legacy GPs. Update me, people.

Also, I need updated, current lists for the following archetypes:

G/B (pref. Qweerios or HoneyT, as they had the best lists for straight G/B)
GBW - Rock and/or Pod, if anyone is still playing those versions. If I don't hear back from anyone, I'll move them to anecdotal
BUG - Tao, is the link in your sig for Jace Fit updated? Also, Viridia, post your latest, please.
Omniscience - if the Europeans are still playing this, I need someone to get me a list.
PFire - HoneyT, if you have any changes/updates to make to your list, post them. Otherwise I'll use your list from SCG.

I've got Rector, Scapewish, and I'll probably throw in a Deadeye list, too. I've come to the conclusion that Deadeye is basically roughly the same as Rector or slightly worse, and pretty much abandoned it since it didn't do what I wanted it to do (beat combo easily). But, I think it's probably still worth putting a list up for it.

Also, if anyone of ye who provide me lists want to take the time out to write a blurb about your card selection choices, how the list plays, pitfalls to avoid, matchup data, and so forth, that would be fantastic and would save me a ton of time on getting this thing finally finished. I can do it myself if I have to, but it'll take me a while and I can't promise 100% correct answers due to my lack of experience with every subarchetype.

[Viridia]

I'll update my Sig with my latest Jace list aswel as the Biomancer list i've been playing around with lately.

Personally i haven't been doing anything on the 4-color Omniscience list anymore, so i can't help you there :)

Edit:

Biomancer: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjRXjv-LoAfPdFp3bVIycDlFLWh4bkM4bHBLb3NZRFE#gid=0


Jace: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjRXjv-LoAfPdFp3bVIycDlFLWh4bkM4bHBLb3NZRFE#gid=0

[TheArchitect]

-------

@Evan -- I'm assuming you're going to Mythic this weekend. Are you qualified yet, or do you need to do well at this one to make it?

If I show up but dont top 8, Ill be at 23 points. I NEED another top 8.

I kind of want to play a punishing fire list but I might just stick to my guns and play scapeshift because I haven't had much time to test punishing fire yet. It has seemed really strong so far though.

Below is the list I have been using and liking, theres one slot Im unsure about and will change around meta dependent.

23 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Scavenging Ooze // Acidic Slime // Garruk, Primal hunter #2 // Abrupt Decay #4 // Maelstrom pulse #2

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Acidic Slime - Mostly here so I dont autolose to Glacial Chasm


Note, there's no carpet of flowers, and theres 2 reasons for this. 1: No one plays UWx control at Mythic for some reason. 2: I have more lands/ramp-dudes maindeck that most lists so boarding out 1-3 exploreres doesnt really hurt.

My maindeck beats every fair deck, so my SB its meant for combo. Against just about any combo deck, I bring in 14 cards.


If I run scapewish, I think Ill run the same list I ran at mythic just -1 Wood elves, -1 Huntmaster or thrag, +2 Abrupt decay. And my SB would go back to 3 REB, 3 Mindbreak trap. Whether or not I run pulverize/ruination will probably depend on if anyones playing MUD and if you are loaning out Turbo eldrazi or not haha!

[Star|Scream]

TheArchitect, what do you feel the punishing fire build adds that scapewish doesn't?

[Arianrhod]

@Evan, I'll do what I can for you. Like if we get paired up in the last round or something, I'll scoop you in. I qualified a longass time ago. I would recommend sticking with Scapewish -- in fact, I'm seriously considering running it myself. I think that there's going to be a heavy Esperblade backlash against the superfluity of combo decks that we've seen up there lately. Alternatively, I might build RIP Miracles and just troll everyone. I actually wanted to play BUGStill, but I already promised Steve that I was going to let him use it like a month ago :| 12post will not be in attendance from my car, so you don't need to worry about it on my end.

@Viridia -- Thanks! I seriously doubt that I'll have the primer finished by the time you get back from Strasbourg, so hopefully we'll be able to add a couple of Day 2's to our history :P

[TheArchitect]

TheArchitect, what do you feel the punishing fire build adds that scapewish doesn't?

Thats the question I have been asking myself. I think the answer is consistency. The land base is much better, and you have more real SB cards to bring in, as well as MD target removal to deal with any kind of threat or hate. With punishing fire you give up the raw power of being able to turn 3 people while they scupt their hand or cast goyfs. And you give up the ability to win a game where you have only lands, zero cards in hand, and low life while your opponent is at 30 and has a jace, bskull, and etc.

I am also not sure which deck is better against combo. I imagine p-fire is because of its real SB cards. But being able to turn wishes into IB, thoughtseize, slaughtergames, pyroclasm or even a scapeshift is really valuable.

Mythic is full of TES, S&T, and then like 30 unique decks. There's usually only 1 guy representing RUG and esper in the room and the rest is stuff like MUD, pox, painter stone, burn, fish, BUG Still, 4c Deathrite, etc. So its a strange meta. I have to be able to not always lose to combo decks, and not fold to random rogue decks like 12 post or MUD.


Thanks Kevin, I would do the same for you if you needed it. I think you are right about scapeshift. I should just stick to what I know does well there. Im glad to hear there will be more UW decks and less eldrazi! Once this years round of invitationals runs up, or if I go to a Jupiter I think Ill start running other stuff (GB, punishing fire, etc).

[Arianrhod]

I think that the PFire build vs ScapeWish comes down to something very simple: sideboard. PFire is absolutely able to have "real cards" in its sideboard to answer combo. The tradeoff is in flexibility. There are, very few situations that Scapewish can get into that it cannot subsequently get out of. It weakens its combo matchup a bit to accomplish this, though.

I think that both versions are equally capable of shredding fair decks. Punishing Fire rips up board states and ensures that nothing sticks other than hexproof, and is effective at fighting 'walkers. Scapewish just kills people if they don't have sufficient interaction because it drops must-answer bombs all day. The real question, I suspect, is whether one is willing to trade off added flexibility and the presence of a legitimate combo kill of your own, in order to better fight combo opponents.