[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[conboy31]

The deck was highlighted today at SCG's invitational:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_nic_fit_with_caleb_d.html

[HokusSchmokus]

Why is this Deck still new and developmental?

[Arianrhod]

If I had to guess, I would say that it's because of two reasons primarily:

1) Lack of (American) high-place finishes. It always does well, putting pilots into the top half, but it has yet to field a top 16 or top 8 at a major event on the American side of things, to my knowledge (disclaimer: I just haven't heard of it...there may be one or two that I miss).

2) Sheer variation of lists. As quantified earlier in the thread, we have at least four completely different variations of the deck at work here: Birthing Pod, GBW Rector, GBW no Rector, straight GB. For a deck to make Established, I believe it has to be refined and "finished" -- which would imply a "best version" or at least a "best list." I believe the closest analogue to this deck is Aggro Loam, which also has a lot of variations -- in terms of color, and whether or not one runs Burning Wish. However, while Aggro Loam has a lot of variation in its lists, it also has several lists (of each type) that have fielded top 16s and top 8s.

As for Caleb's list, I don't really like it. Note that that's personal preference speaking. I understand why he made the choices he did, and I've actually been eying the 2nd Scav Ooze myself -- it's just so good, and so much of the wider meta abuses the graveyard in some way right now. At the end of the day, though, it is a completely different version operating within a completely different paradigm from what I prefer to play. That doesn't mean it's not good, but I personally wouldn't play it. I will be very interested to read his inevitable article on the deck that will come from playing it at the Invitational -- I would love to hear why he cut Recurring Nightmare. It's such a powerful card, even as a one-of.

As an aside, I do enjoy the fact that he referenced not liking the Nic Fit name, which is something I grimace about every time I have to talk about the deck as well.

[conboy31]

I would recommend that you try out a 2nd ooze. I did and posted about it a few months ago and have never looked back.

I was excited to see a new list from SCGs coverage, but I admit I am not thrilled with some of the choices and numbers. However, I would have to sleeve up the exact 75 to get a better feel for the interactions.

[Philipp2293]

It seems that Caleb's deck is more built around abusing the Veteran Explorer/Therapy to power out bombs while still disrupting your oponent and less about abusing other interactions/engines. I think he made top 8 in the invitational, but haven't heard anything about his final legacy score, does anyone have more infos about that.

Oh yeah, agreed on the 2nd ooze.

[conboy31]

I have been trying to figure out the format for this invitation. I believe legacy was the first 4 rounds, and Caleb went 3-1 looking at the standings after 4. I also think up to 2 byes were able to be earned for the start of this event. I could be wrong on some of this information.

GB Vet is being featured live: http://www.justin.tv/scglive?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=www.starcitygames.com

[P-E]

Caleb is on the good way ^^
nice to see this deck perfs:tongue:

[conboy31]

Round 14 Pairings
1 Duke, Reid
1 Durward, Caleb S

Duke is playing http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_monoblack_pox_with_r.html

Caleb can board into 3 liliana's to match Dukes 4.

Edit-> his esper control lost to solar flair in standard of the top 8. So it seems we won't get to see nic fit (assuming they switched to legacy for part of the top 8, though I have no idea how this invitational split format works).

[Arianrhod]

This should be easy for Caleb. Pox's gameplan thrives on mana denial, and Explorer is amazing for that. Also, in my experience fighting against Pox, they can't really deal with Kitchen Finks at all. He's just better than their deck.

...And Caleb is in the top 8. No idea if we'll see more of Explorer in the top 8 or not, though, given the split nature of the invitation. I certainly hope so, though.

[CalebD]

Veteran Explorer vs Smallpox never happened, as 1st/2nd seed we drew in. I wouldn't have bet on pox had we played.

Went x-1 in legacy, deck was very strong and my loss was punting vs UR burn (not playing around the second pierce.)

[P-E]

Good job Caleb :cool:
i was following you on live and like your match versus gerry thompson

[Richard Cheese]

Congrats on the awesome performance Caleb. Just curious about Wickerbough over Pridemage - just synergy with Deed, or is the bigger body often worth the extra 2 mana?

Also, has anyone considered running Mortarpod or some other sac effects to bin Explorers with more regularity, or do you just not play them unless you have a sac outlet ready?

[Philipp2293]

Note that Pridemage isn't hardcastable in this version.

[Koby]

Also, has anyone considered running Mortarpod or some other sac effects to bin Explorers with more regularity, or do you just not play them unless you have a sac outlet ready?

That's a brilliant suggestion! Good idea Richard!

[Tao]

I thought the deck was behind against Snapcaster shenanigans but maybe my testing was wrong. Maybe there was something wrong with my build so I will try Caleb's list. It seems to put consistency over everything. But is it one or two Thrun? The two lists show something different.
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_nic_fit_with_caleb_d.html
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42692

[Richard Cheese]

Didn't even notice the manabase thing, despite the first comment being about not being able to hardcast Teeg...derp. I guess Teeg is just a much narrower use case where he doesn't warrant changes to the manabase.

@ruckus - thanks, my ideas are usually terrible. I decided to run Explorer/Therapy in my awesome hilarious Treefolk Tribal deck, and was having a hard time offing Explorers to my benefit consistently.

Also, Dungrove Elder is actually really good in a deck that can regularly get 8-10 lands in play.

Finally, another question: in builds with White, how do people feel about Path over Swords? Is the potential for the drawback early in the game a greater risk than the potential for zero-drawback late in the game?

[eq.firemind]

Finally, another question: in builds with White, how do people feel about Path over Swords? Is the potential for the drawback early in the game a greater risk than the potential for zero-drawback late in the game?
Free landdrop can give a huge tempo boost in early game. You are usually control, so you never want that.

Since I still don't like Green Sun's Zenith, I'm gonna try some different tutors:
Living Wish
It costs 1 more mana than Zenith, but grabs wider arrange of creatures (like Grave Titan or Academy Rector) and also grabs lands (like Phyrexian Tower, Bojuka Bog, Karakas).
Eladamri's Call (for BGw version)
Also costs 1 more mana than Zenith and grabs wider arrange of creatures. Instant speed and not screwing over over your sideboard looks valuable.
Glitering Wish (for BGw version)
This one always seemed to have some potential, but never worked out.
Ideas?

[Koby]

Free landdrop can give a huge tempo boost in early game. You are usually control, so you never want that.


... *looks at Veteran Explorer, looks back to Path to Exile*

You got me!

[eq.firemind]

... *looks at Veteran Explorer, looks back to Path to Exile*

You got me!
When you dig 2 lands and opp digs 2 or less, that's equal in my book. Since you likely use that mana first (very important thing!), that's a tempo boost for you.
When you dig 0 and opp digs 1 (and obv. uses that mana first), that's tempo boost for your opp...

[Arianrhod]

I agree that Swords is still better 90% of the time -- sometimes you want to gain life, and nuking one of your own guys can be an effective way of staying in the game. I've won games against burn by swordsing one of my own tokens from Garruk...it was that close. At the same time, I will note that you can royally mess up peoples' brainstorms with Path -- as well as that a lot of decks don't run basics at the moment, so it's just free removal. My final verdict though is that this deck's endgame is so absolutely over-the-top compared to just about anything else in the format (barring combo/S&T), that if they get a healing salve off of a delver or something, I don't really care.

@Firemind -- I've wanted to try the Living Wish idea myself for a while, but I've never actually ground out a list. I used to run a landstill shell with four living wishes in it, for specific bullets that targetted just about any matchup (my sb was literally 15 wish targets). It actually worked really well, but it suffered from the spell-snare meta that was inspired by Survival. Keeping that in mind, a Wish variant of this deck might not work now, either, do the Snapcaster-inspired Snare meta. It's definitely a very powerful card, though.

As far as Glittering is concerned, the problem with Glittering is that you really need to be 5c to take full advantage of it. Red in particular offers some amazing options like Thought Hemo and Ajani Vengeant -- but if you want to run them, you're automatically 4-color. Something like Trygon or Simic Sky Swallower (my go-to "win-the-game" card for any wishboard that can run it) adds blue.

Just food for thought, but Eladrami's Call looks like it would go awfully well in a Birthing Pod version.

Also, a question for Caleb: why no Master of the Wild Hunt? He's absolutely amazing, especially in this meta (Tap, kill SFM or Delver or Lavamancer or Clique or or or or or). I'm guessing that it's because you already have Wickerbough and Thrun at the 4-spot? Was Wickerbough that good for you, considering you also have Pulses and Deed (and discard for SFM shenangians)?

[eq.firemind]

Oh, and one more thing for people running blue: Intuition into straightforward 3xCabal Therapy seems to be very nice.

[Richard Cheese]

Unless you've already binned an Explorer, in which case a lot of decks may not have any basics left.

I guess it makes more sense for the build I'm working on, which leans more towards aggro.

[CalebD]

I thought the deck was behind against Snapcaster shenanigans but maybe my testing was wrong. Maybe there was something wrong with my build so I will try Caleb's list. It seems to put consistency over everything. But is it one or two Thrun? The two lists show something different.
[url]

One thrun. After the weekend I'd prob go -1 hymn, -1 Wall of Awesome, +1 liliana, +1skeletal scrying, although hymn is better vs burn.

Cabal Therapy stripping Snapcaster Mage is pretty good. Also, Scavenging Ooze laughs in the face of that card.

Grave Titan is still better than blue mages' entire decks, Thrun+Deed still eats Jace, and Therapy is still insane vs delver/stoneforge mystic. Everyone is falling over themselves trying to show you their hand.

Edit: Wickerbough Elder is fantastic, and the ability being instant speed is relevant. On the weekend I tutored it up as an answer to equipment and a md sulfuric vortex. That said, I always thought Master of the Wild Hunt was interesting, just never had a chance to test it. The card doesn't solve problems the deck has, but it might be better at doing something the deck already does well. Not sure if the card is worse (less needed) or better in a deed deck.

[dan who?]

One thrun. After the weekend I'd prob go -1 hymn, -1 Wall of Awesome, +1 liliana, +1skeletal scrying, although hymn is better vs burn.

Cabal Therapy stripping Snapcaster Mage is pretty good. Also, Scavenging Ooze laughs in the face of that card.

Grave Titan is still better than blue mages' entire decks, Thrun+Deed still eats Jace, and Therapy is still insane vs delver/stoneforge mystic. Everyone is falling over themselves trying to show you their hand.

Edit: Wickerbough Elder is fantastic, and the ability being instant speed is relevant. On the weekend I tutored it up as an answer to equipment and a md sulfuric vortex. That said, I always thought Master of the Wild Hunt was interesting, just never had a chance to test it. The card doesn't solve problems the deck has, but it might be better at doing something the deck already does well. Not sure if the card is worse (less needed) or better in a deed deck.

For your revised list, would you still have 2 Liliana's sideboard then? Or would you move a Liliana from the side to the MD and put something else in the sideboard? Congrats on the finish and I really like the look of this deck.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Did anyone of you guys ever consider 1 Elspeth/1 Garruk the flippable/1 Gideon Jura and 2 Lilianas as "threats"? I got a feeling that they might work pretty good against most of the field while beeing immune to Deed. The don't help with the combo matchup besides Lilly but they are pretty awesome in every other matchup i think.

I'll play a smaller tourney tomorrow and a 50-80 ppl on Sunday, probably with Nic Fit as well, if they are nice in testing i will try them out. Jace was awesome everytime in the blue version i played for some time, but he just doesn't make the cut anymore.

[conboy31]

Yes, myself and various posters have tried each of those out. My current list has been 2 Liliana of the veil, 1 Garruk Relentless, and 1 Gideon. Gideon is the newest addition from a few weeks back. I was using 3 SDT's and felt like 2 might be the right amount and opted for an additional bomb with the tossup being between Elspeth and Gideon. Though it might be better to have a more robust early game and drop Garruk and Gideon for 2 hymn's and trust the decks late game will be sufficient.

[pcccp]

I am testing the deck and searching for new cards that could fit into it. Scute Mob shows some nice results as a one-off. He is a cheap tutorable endgame target that ends the game within two swings. It happend a lot of time during testing that i could activate deed + search for Scute Mob with GSZ the same turn.

[Arianrhod]

Scute is interesting. My version probably wouldn't want him, but I'd think that something like Caleb's straight GB might find him useful. The real question is whether, at the point at which you have 5 lands, is it better to GSZ for Scute, or for Master? Granted that there are other considerations, such as that as you said, you can Deed + GSZ on the same turn.

I'm going to the second JCG Legacy today, hoping to defend my title. I've updated my list a good bit from what I last posted in here -- I'll opt not to post it now, though, and save it for the report after the event. My walker config is 3x Garruk Relentless and 1x Elspeth, though, if that helps that particular debate. Keep in mind, though, that my version runs things like Rector, which makes Garruk much better. Without Rector, I'd probably still be on a 2/2 Garruk/Lily split, honestly (without Rector, I don't think I'd be running white at all, thus no Elspeth or Gideon to be considered).

[Poliser]

I am testing the deck and searching for new cards that could fit into it. Scute Mob shows some nice results as a one-off. He is a cheap tutorable endgame target that ends the game within two swings. It happend a lot of time during testing that i could activate deed + search for Scute Mob with GSZ the same turn.

So if you're searching for nice cards, why you don't try Out Spiritmonger?
He is hillarious! Regenerate and switching between colours makes him Perish-proof and you can just lough when a creature attacks you equipped with a sword of x and y xD
I like this guy, because only swords to plowshares and massremoval can handle him

[Fjedsen]

So if you're searching for nice cards, why you don't try Out Spiritmonger?
He is hillarious! Regenerate and switching between colours makes him Perish-proof and you can just lough when a creature attacks you equipped with a sword of x and y xD
I like this guy, because only swords to plowshares and massremoval can handle him

That's the point. I don't want to spend 5 mana (or 6 with GSZ) for a creature and then let it hit by Swords to Plowshares and getting no value out of it. Yeah, I know. Not everybody runs Swords. But there are so many decks playing them. I think Scure Mob is a really good idea !

[Richard Cheese]

Tried out a singleton Cursed Scroll this weekend. Was originally going to be Mortarpod, but I figured the mana to activate wouldn't be a problem most of the time, and 2>1, so why not? Pretty happy with it overall.

[pcccp]

I thought about the scroll too. I thought it could work as another artifact that could (theoretically) be recurred with Glissa, the Traitor. Glissa + Engineered Explosives didnt make any impressive results so i forgot about the scoll. I will give it a try as a one-off.

[Richard Cheese]

I just want some other ways of controlling Explorer's ability besides Therapy and Tower. My initial impressions of the Explorer plan/manabase were that too often against decks with lots of spot removal like Zoo and Thresh/UR Delver, I'd open on an explorer but not a sac outlet, which I feel completely negates the early advantage.

Some other possibly useful outlets:

Bone Splinters
Metamorphosis
Altar of Bone
Diabolic Intent
Culling of the Weak


Also, going back through the thread I don't see much discussion of Dark Confidant. Currently trying to work on a list that eschews the big bomby creatures for Bobs, while still taking advantage of a large number of basics in play. Has anyone else tried going this route?

[Koby]

Garruk Relentless (both sides) offers a method to destroy Explorer. He also fits the deck's gameplan very nicely.

[muscleb]

I kinda like Diabolic Intent. Another good sac outlet is innocent blood.
I played once with 2 Dark Confidant, which worked out pretty nice over all. However, since spell snare is dominant right now I think playing alot of 2 drops or none/allmost none could be considered.

I also noticed how the G/B version is soft to certain lands, Riptide Lab etc. Since Pulse doesn't hit those lands, I am going to play with 1-2 Beast Within. A 3/3 token shouldn't be that big of an issue with deeds and what not.

I hope my english makes some kind of sense :)

[Richard Cheese]

Totally meant to have Innocent Blood on that list, my bad. Has anyone thought about using Aven Mindcensor to really make Explorer one-sided, or is that focusing too much on Explorer at the expense of the rest of the deck?

[Tao]

I think it is really time for this to go Established. 21 results on TCdecks plus more that are not reported there is quite good.
I have an updated OP ready but will wait till after the ban anouncement with it.

[Koby]

Totally meant to have Innocent Blood on that list, my bad. Has anyone thought about using Aven Mindcensor to really make Explorer one-sided, or is that focusing too much on Explorer at the expense of the rest of the deck?

It's my understanding that most of the top Legacy decks run few if no basic lands. Moreover, decks that do run more than 2 basics can't really take advantage of the extra mana resources as well as this deck can.

[Qweerios]

I used to play Gifts Rock a long time ago and I tested Nic Fit out after seeing its promising results, and I really think that adding a 3rd color to this deck is a mistake. Being able play effectively in the absence of a T1 explorer on 3 colors is very difficult (Hymn most notably).

Another point I'd like to bring up is the necessity for "bombs". Grave Titan, Baneslayer Angel, Sun Titan and company are all good cards but they are anchors in the early game. Packing 4 Explorers in a deck does not guarantee you a lategame. I think there are way better 4-5 CMC bombs out there to abuse before delving into 6-7 CMC creatures.

With that being said, what about Abyssal Persecutor and Garruk, Primal Hunter? I have found Percy to be absolutely fantastic for this deck, and wouldn't be surprised if he became a staple. This baby gives Diabolic Intent and Cabal Therapy an additional use. Having to remove him when my opponent has 0 life has never been an issue. I think a 6/6, Flying, Trample, drawback-free demon for 4 mana is broken. Percy also has a great interaction with Deed because it its CMC is being 1 above almost everything in the format, and at 4 CMC, he is also low enough to be able to rely on Deed as a Percy outlet.

Also, is Wall of Blossom really that useful? He is pretty good on the draw but pretty sub-par as a GSZ target. I usually preffer to GSZ an Explorer instead, and once you hit 4 mana, there are just so many better tutor targets such as Finks and Witness. I have yet to be in a situation where Blossom is the best choice.

[conboy31]

I used to play Gifts Rock a long time ago and I tested Nic Fit out after seeing its promising results, and I really think that adding a 3rd color to this deck is a mistake.

I completely agreed with that during the misstep days, but found a preference for a light white splash post misstep. The one mana removal of swords is amazingly efficient, dodges all of the spell snare removal that black creature kill offers, and doesn't cost life compared to dismember. I absolutely love the robust mana base that BG offers, but found it worthwhile to go into white for 4 swords, 2 QPMs, 0-1 elspeth/gideon, 2 sun titan. The one versus two mana also comes up relevant when playing witness -> get back and replay swords, and GSZ -> witness, replay swords.

Edit: if a great 5 mana green/black/gold creature gets printed in EDH Commander sets I will be the first to give up Sun Titan or Grave Titan, but as it is now the 6 mana titans outclass any 5 drop by such a large amount there is not any viable alternatives.

[Qweerios]

if a great 5 mana green/black/gold creature gets printed in EDH Commander sets I will be the first to give up Sun Titan or Grave Titan, but as it is now the 6 mana titans outclass any 5 drop by such a large amount there is not any viable alternatives.

This is where we differ, my mana curve tops at 5 with a singleton Garruk, Primal Titan.

But back to playing 3 colors. It is quite easy to agree that Vindicate > Pulse, STP > Dismember, and that Sun Titan > Grave Titan to some extent. The only significant upgrade there is StP. However, adding white opens up new vulnerabilities. In the absence of an Explorer or the presence of an undying Explorer, the white splash becomes a liability. Stifle, Wasteland, Vindicate, or any form of land destruction become very threatening(which happen to be very popular in Tempo RUG). Early Moon effects are now backbreaking and you must rely on the power of prayer to find basic lands with Top. While playing 2 colors, though, land destruction is a real pleasure. I love seeing my opponent spend ressources to slow down my mana development because it only ever delays Hymn and Witness.

This issue with colored mana in the 3c version wouldn't be as major if it didn't feature as many double-costed cards. This deck already features cards with CMC beyond 4, its primary concern should be to be able to reach that point in the fastest and safest way possible with some degree of consistency. Even with 4 Birds and 4 Veteran, not only would card quality suffer, being able to reach double black, white, and green would still represent some risks. I am not suggesting that adding a 3rd color isn't possible, what I am saying is that it isn't worth it. The risks outweigh the benefits by a significant margin. Your first opponent should be in front of you, not hiding in your manabase.

Here is my list, open for criticism:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts/Enchantments (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (2)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (21)
1 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Damnation


I swapped Wickerbough Elder with Viridian Shaman because of the mana cost. Having to pay 6 mana on a GSZ to get rid of an artifact was a very poor play, at that point in the game, getting a Witness to grab back a Pulse/Deed was usually a better choice. I usually can't get rid of an early Batterskull/Jitte/SoFaF with Elder fast enough, and Shaman can.

Percy is an allstar in this deck. I have found myself playing multiple against Zoo where I can easely get rid of two Percy at the same time (Deed, Damn, Pulse, Intent, Tower/Therapy). He is also fast enough to save the day against Bskull, big enough to outclass any flyer, and is absolutely terrifying when his drawback is a non-issue. Also, Percy's mana cost allows me one sided board wipes with Deed, just like Tombstalker.

Garruk, Primal Hunter has replaced Harmonize and does absolutely everything this deck needs: poops out bodies, draws massive amounts of cards, and wins if you give it enough time. My #1 tutor target followed by Liliana.

I have mixed feelings about Diabolic Intent, it may be a win-more card. It needs more testing.

[Richard Cheese]

This is where we differ, my mana curve tops at 5 with a singleton Garruk, Primal Titan.

But back to playing 3 colors. It is quite easy to agree that Vindicate > Pulse, STP > Dismember, and that Sun Titan > Grave Titan to some extent. The only significant upgrade there is StP. However, adding white opens up new vulnerabilities. In the absence of an Explorer or the presence of an undying Explorer, the white splash becomes a liability. Stifle, Wasteland, Vindicate, or any form of land destruction become very threatening(which happen to be very popular in Tempo RUG). Early Moon effects are now backbreaking and you must rely on the power of prayer to find basic lands with Top. While playing 2 colors, though, land destruction is a real pleasure. I love seeing my opponent spend ressources to slow down my mana development because it only ever delays Hymn and Witness.

This issue with colored mana in the 3c version wouldn't be as major if it didn't feature as many double-costed cards. This deck already features cards with CMC beyond 4, its primary concern should be to be able to reach that point in the fastest and safest way possible with some degree of consistency. Even with 4 Birds and 4 Veteran, not only would card quality suffer, being able to reach double black, white, and green would still represent some risks. I am not suggesting that adding a 3rd color isn't possible, what I am saying is that it isn't worth it. The risks outweigh the benefits by a significant margin. Your first opponent should be in front of you, not hiding in your manabase.

Here is my list, open for criticism:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts/Enchantments (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (2)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (21)
1 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Damnation


I swapped Wickerbough Elder with Viridian Shaman because of the mana cost. Having to pay 6 mana on a GSZ to get rid of an artifact was a very poor play, at that point in the game, getting a Witness to grab back a Pulse/Deed was usually a better choice. I usually can't get rid of an early Batterskull/Jitte/SoFaF with Elder fast enough, and Shaman can.

Percy is an allstar in this deck. I have found myself playing multiple against Zoo where I can easely get rid of two Percy at the same time (Deed, Damn, Pulse, Intent, Tower/Therapy). He is also fast enough to save the day against Bskull, big enough to outclass any flyer, and is absolutely terrifying when his drawback is a non-issue. Also, Percy's mana cost allows me one sided board wipes with Deed, just like Tombstalker.

Garruk, Primal Hunter has replaced Harmonize and does absolutely everything this deck needs: poops out bodies, draws massive amounts of cards, and wins if you give it enough time. My #1 tutor target followed by Liliana.

I have mixed feelings about Diabolic Intent, it may be a win-more card. It needs more testing.

What immediately stands out to me is 4x Persecutors. The guy absolutely sucks in multiples, and you have 3 Tops + fetches to fix your draws. Consider that even in the Gate, a deck built around him with way more sac effects, most people don't want to run more than 3. I would cut at least one, probably for another Ooze, and probably a second one for an extra Liliana or something.

[Qweerios]

What immediately stands out to me is 4x Persecutors. The guy absolutely sucks in multiples, and you have 3 Tops + fetches to fix your draws. Consider that even in the Gate, a deck built around him with way more sac effects, most people don't want to run more than 3. I would cut at least one, probably for another Ooze, and probably a second one for an extra Liliana or something.

I have played enough Gate to know how bad he is with any less than 12 outlets. I know how much restrictions he puts on your deck and how difficult sideboarding becomes when he forces you to hold on to dead cards. The gate usually has 2 Therapy, 4 Gatekeeper, and 4 Edict/GftT/Blood for 3 Percy. I have 4 Therapy, 2 Intent, 3 Pulse, 3 Deed, 1 Lily, and 1 Tower for 4 Percy. That is not counting the 4 GSZ that can fetch 2 Witness and bring back any of those. Also, I believe I did mention that I have tested playing multiple Percy against Zoo, and that it does work beautifully. Even without Damnation, there are 2 Intent, 1 Tower, 3 Pulse, and 3 Deed that allow multiple Percy on the field, and again, that is discounting the 4 GSZ and 2 Witnesses.

[Richard Cheese]

I have played enough Gate to know how bad he is with any less than 12 outlets. I know how much restrictions he puts on your deck and how difficult sideboarding becomes when he forces you to hold on to dead cards. The gate usually has 2 Therapy, 4 Gatekeeper, and 4 Edict/GftT/Blood for 3 Percy. I have 4 Therapy, 2 Intent, 3 Pulse, 3 Deed, 1 Lily, and 1 Tower for 4 Percy. That is not counting the 4 GSZ that can fetch 2 Witness and bring back any of those. Also, I believe I did mention that I have tested playing multiple Percy against Zoo, and that it does work beautifully. Even without Damnation, there are 2 Intent, 1 Tower, 3 Pulse, and 3 Deed that allow multiple Percy on the field, and again, that is discounting the 4 GSZ and 2 Witnesses.

Fair enough. Have you tried that list with just 3? Still seems to me like 3 + 3 Tops will have you seeing one basically every game, but significantly reduce the chances of opening with one.

On a related note, stupid idea of the day: Explorer/Persecutor/GSZ Deck with Leyline of Singularity.

[conboy31]

With the recent rule changes, we may have gotten a gift for versions that run academy rector. Basically a worship that dodges lifeloss and the requirement to have a creature.

"1.4. OPTIONAL ABILITIES

Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied. An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else:
•Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
•Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes
•drawing cards.
•Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.
•Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent.
•Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
•Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
•Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target
•your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
•Gives you additional turns or phases.
•Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.
Abilities that trigger at the same point in each players turn and do something to “that player” (e.g. Howling Mine) are never optional.
This list is comprehensive. An ability that does not fit all of the criteria above is not optional, even if it is to the benefit of the player controlling the ability. Similarly, an optional ability is always optional, even if it would be to the detriment of the player for it to happen. "

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=8875

Enchantment 3WWW

You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
When you have 20 or more life, you lose the game.
Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)

I guess it could be a 1 of in the sb for decks that can't deal with enchantments.

[Tao]

It only works PTQ, Nationals, PT or GP though and not on local weekly or monthly tournaments.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, sorry it took me a few days to get this around. First, the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Moat
1 Debtor’s Knell

3 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Urborg, tomb of Yagmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

//SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Choke
2 Memoricide
2 Leyline of Sanctity

Round 1 set the theme of the tournament: teamkills. My area fielded nine out of the thirty-ish players, but so some of that is expected, but man, did we TK a lot. The first round was one such.

R1: Tom with Dreadstill.

This was not a matchup that I had ever tested against, since Dreadstill has kind of never really recovered in popularity from the Misstep era. That said, I used to play the deck, and I know how to pick it apart. I won the roll, and led off with a Therapy on Stifle. He had 2 in his opener. Welp. The game dragged on for a while, as he set up countertop and a Bob while I blew up the world with Deed. He eventually found a Trickbind for one of the Noughts that were stranded in his hand, and I couldn't find another Deed or GSZ in time.

G2 saw a similar opening to the first game, except that I managed to Surgical his stifles. He laid out a Tormods and a Relic on his turn 1, and we durdled around for a while. He landed countertop, but by that point, I was dropping bombs that he couldn't CB: ie, Kokusho. He had literally no answer to the dragon, and we went to g3.

G3 was a nightmarish slugfest. He had a fast CB/Top, which didn't really do that much. He also had a Pithing Needle on Pernicious Deed, though.I make a crucial mistake here: I GSZ for a Qasali, to try to blast through the Needle. Instead, as I was sitting on 5 mana with a Yosei in hand, I should have gone for an Explorer, as I had a sac outlet for it. His Forces had also been surgicaled at this point, so the only way he could have stalled it out was to keep bouncing it with Jace every turn, which would have been preferable to the constant fatesealing every turn. He managed to exile my library in turns, but I had 4 cards to put back and a Moat in play for his Trinket + Mishra beat team, so we ended up drawing what should have been a 2-1 for me. Oh well.

0-0-1.

R2: Bryce with Enchantress.

I don't like Enchantress, because competent players always have Karmic Justice. Sure enough, he has one maindeck, and finds it very quickly. I manage to beat him down to 6, when he drops a Moat. At that point, I have Master in play with an Elspeth in hand. Unfortunately, he chooses that moment to go batshit, and about twenty enchantments later, my Master is dead from Words of War, and I'm in a very bad spot. Rather than waste time against a deck where time matters, I scoop and we're on to game two.

G2, I'm feeling pretty good about my hand. I have double Deed, and a GSZ, as well as some other goodies. He drops a turn 2 Karmic Justice. I reply by GSZing for Pridemage and nuke it immediately. I feel much, much better after that -- until he drops a second the next turn. Apparently he had 2/2 Karmic Justices in his list in his opening hand. I comment immediately that I don't know if I can even beat that, but that I'll try. As he sets up, I Memoricide his Replenishes. Then, with a Deed under an O-Ring and an Explorer in play, I crack my 2nd Deed for 3. This leaves a Moat and lands in play on his side, and two lands + Deed on mine. I also successfully killed (permanently, without Replenish) Words of War, as well as a pile of other crap. He drops Sigil of the Empty Throne, and then casts O-Ring. My only legal target is Deed, so I crack it for 0 to wipe out the token he got (since Sigil is on cast), and to force him to O-Ring one of his own permanents. We durdle for a while, and I thought I might be able to draw it out with a win (I had Sun Titan and Elspeth in hand, but only one white source in play, with a white dual and ample fetches left in my deck). He manages to drop enough mana enchantments, though, to cast Emrakul. GG, goddraw, gg.

0-1-1.

R3: Tim with Sligh.

I'm feeling pretty good about this matchup, since I'd seen him playing the deck earlier in the day. I have a good matchup vs burn, and Finks are just as happy to block Keldon Marauders as they are to beat face for 3. The only thing I'm really scared of is Ball Lightning and Hell's Thunder. He keeps a shaky 1-lander, and proceeds to never find another mana source. Luckily for me, I didn't open with an Explorer -- in fact, I never even saw one that game, so he definitely didn't have the chance to dig out of his screw.

G2 means Leylines and Finks. I open one Finks, and then GSZ for another. Then I hardcast a Leyline, and he scoops and walks away angrily.

1-1-1.

R4: Tom with Zoo.

This is a re-match of the finals from the last time I was here. He comments that he spent a half hour looking at my decklist trying to figure out how to beat it. I shrug, and quickly demoralize him some more. Neither of our games were even remotely close. I enjoy Zoo being a bye.

2-1-1.

R5: Jack with kind of Gate.

I have no idea how this deck was at the higher tables, although maybe he just didn't draw well against me. It was like an old-school monoblack control with Hypnotic and Abyssal Specters, Royal Assassins, the Rack, and a pile of discard. He also was sporting Icy Manipulator, like a boss. He also didn't seem very interested in the match, so I just went through the motions and killed him fast. There's nothing really to say about this matchup =/

Semis:

First, a note. My crew only managed to put 3 in the top 8 this time, due to all of the teamkilling. The top 8 included High Tide, Affinity, and two Zoo decks. That's 4 byes in the top 8. The rest of the top is a RUG Dreadnought deck, UW Stoneblade, and one of my better friends and brewing partners, playing Deadguy. So, of course I get matched up against the one person that I absolutely do not want to play.

Top8: Tony with Deadguy.

Our matches are usually coinflips, but I'm definitely scared of this. Tony knows exactly how to pick my deck apart, at least as far as the matchup is concerned. I get screwed game one while he has a Nighthawk with a Batterskull on it. Cool story.

G2 is much more interesting. He discards a Deed early, and immediately Extripates it. Without onboard removal for his equipment, I'm in a very dangerous spot. I still stabilize the board, while he has no cards in hand. Unfortunately, he draws very well, and quickly reestablishes his board presence with multiple Bobs, Jitte, and eventually Batterskull.

0-2.

I remained sore for a while at the pairings, and am frankly still a little annoyed that it worked out that way. If I could have gotten by Tony, I would have won the event, hands down. I would have played Affinity next, and then Zoo in the finals. Derp. Such is life, though, I suppose. All in all, I don't think I'd change even one card in my list right now. It runs pretty much perfect with regards to my playstyle, and can beat damn near anything if I don't make mistakes or get godhanded. I've actually very happy with it.

And once I go up to Vestal on the 7th, I'll have my 2nd Korean Veteran Explorer =)

[Tao]

*updated OP and Established

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of 1-2 copies of Bloodgift Demon? Paying 2 more mana on Phyrexian Arena to get a 5/4 Flying body sounds pretty good for Nic Fit.

Also, Maelstrom Pulse vs. Putrefy, which is better? Pulse hits Planeswalkers and enchantments but Putrefy is instant speed. On one hand, being able to destroy Jace and Elspeth is great, but there aren't many threatening enchantments running about. Pulse also has that whole 'getting rid of copies thing' that comes into play every once in a while. On the other hand, being able to fight back Riptide Laboratory and Batterskull with instant speed is important too, especially because they are rampant.

[Dark Ritual]

Against batterskull your best bet is to kill SFM. You don't let them untap with SFM, if you do you're likely doing it wrong. And even if batterskull hits play you can simply play a bigger dude actually with this deck or maybe have an opportunity to pulse the batterskull itself. Pulse also kinda helps the combo MU like Qweerios said against EtW tokens if they go that route. Although this is the same with putrefy; if they play out LED too soon you can putrefy it in response to something other than infernal tutor or burning wish or ad nauseam itself.

But the big one for me is that pulse can hit 'walkers. Therefore I like it infinitely more; blowing up jace if they lack a counterspell or another jace is quite strong so you don't have to try to fight through jace with creatures. Same with elspeth, which is seeing play in maverick. Pulse is also useful against random rogue decks with annoying enchantments or what have you.

[CalebD]

Batterskull is slow, giving infinite time to answer it. Thrun blocks for days.

If the game has reached parity, my most common way of (eventually) answering Batterskull involves nuking the world for five w/ Deed and then Cabal Therapying it out of their hand when they return it. It's wonky, but they don't have many threats, so it works.

Putrefy is not a card imo. I went up to three Pulses, mostly for Jace, but answering opposing lilis is relevant too.

[Theonlyone]

I am going to test the deck in a few weeks and I don't know what list I should try first. The BGW with the academy rectors, recurring nightmares and so on or Durward's BG version?
What card should be cut to have exactly 60 cards in Durward's list? I don't like to play 61 cards in a deck.

[RJM]

I am going to test the deck in a few weeks and I don't know what list I should try first. The BGW with the academy rectors, recurring nightmares and so on or Durward's BG version?
What card should be cut to have exactly 60 cards in Durward's list? I don't like to play 61 cards in a deck.

There aren't 61 cards, that was a mistake in the listing. There's only 1 Thrun, not x2.

[Arianrhod]

@Theonlyone --

It depends on your personal playstyle, honestly. I would probably say that you should test Caleb's first, because even if you don't like it, you have some experience with the archetype then, and Caleb's, since he top8'd with it, is more likely to be seen running around than the GBW Rector version. I prefer the Rector version, but that's because it fits with my playstyle more. The great thing about Explorer decks is that you can pretty much build them to suit whatever your individual style is -- it lets you play a "rogue" deck, while playing an established archetype. And I'm pretty sure that we've only scratched the surface here.

Also, for what it's worth, I agree regarding Pulse vs Putrefy. Pulse wins every time. This deck can be slightly soft to Jace, so having more answers for him is a very welcome thing.

PS - yay us, for making established!

[Qweerios]

I have recently settled on a Nic Fit list that I felt was best (giving up on GWb Maverick). I decided against Diabolic Intent simply because the card is inherently flawed. The secondary uses of Intent do not make up for the card advantage-for-card quality exchange. Diabolic Intent can safely be labeled as a win-more card. Now with less sac outlets for Percy, I followed Richard Cheese's advice and cut them down to 3.

Abyssal Nic Fit:

Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells (15)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Others (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Damnation


However, there is 1 slot I really cannot make up my mind about: What is the best GSZ target in GB to destroy Artifacts/Enchantments. The experience I've had with Wickerbough Elder has left me bitter. As I have explained before, by the time I have 6 lands on the board, I am either holding, or have already used a Pulse or a Deed, and fetching a Witness is about as good if not better. Viridian Shaman is limited to Artifacts only and isn't as versatile on the draw because playing him proactively in the absence of artifacts is suboptimal. Viridian Zealot (or Qasali Pridemage) is half the cost of Wickerbough for the same ability, but he dies in the process instead of leaving you with a 4/4 body. However, the fact that Zealot dies when activated makes him more abusive in conjunction with Witness and Stronghold. The main cards I find myself using GSZ to get rid of are Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaF. Against UW Counterblade, if they are on the draw, they can simply lay down a T1 SFM into T2 Batterskull and there is nothing I can do about it but try to Therapy/Hymn Batterskull away (assuming they don't counter). Against their wall of counters, I need to be able to come up with disruption and answers for Batterskull relentlessly in order to catch my breath and stomp them later (assuming they dont destroy me with Lab + Snap), and Wickerbough doesn't turn GSZ into early Bskull removal.

When I was reading about CalebD's top8 list, it got me thinking about the singleton Skeletal Scrying he wanted to implement. I can see how an EOT Scrying for 4+ get you back up in a losing game or seal the deal in a tied match, but I also see the card as a dead card to have in the early and mid-game. Also, bringing the board to a stall often leaves me with a low life total, making Scrying just as dead in the late-game. It seems to me that Volrath's Stronghold is just about as good in the late-game as Scrying without necessarily being dead in the early stages.

[Fatal]

Hey I was toying with Nic Fit and actually create unusual list:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah

SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 Hymn to Tourach


What is new ? NO's and 2 targets which also can be fetched from GSZ quite easy Primeval Titan and Avenger of Zendikar - most of guys can think that they're too slow but most of time, as long as game goes on you have plenty of time and your mana growth on. I added also Life from the Loam to cycle important lands, and never had problems with targets under Volrath's Stronghold. I adnotice that Hermit isn't a bomb without Recurring Nightmare..

SB is still a mess but mostly I like Innocent Blood there very anti-aggro card.

Deck is very funny to play - having 8 toxes 4/5 in legacy isn't too usual :).

[slaydo]

Hi,

I have been testing both the GB version and the GBw version of Arianrhod (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)/page12 post 232 of this thread) and I feel that this deck sometimes mulls into oblivion (testing on an online program cockatrice so there is a random factor) because of low land count. I swapped out 1 Academy Rector for another Savannah (22 lands now) and I feel it runs much more smoother. I have had a number of ragequits which involved me raping the board and hand of my opp. Feels dirty....:cool:

any comments on the addition of 1 land?

[conboy31]

I don't think anyone will try to discourage you from running the 22nd land. I am confident, and it is probably obvious, that a 22nd land would be more correct than dropping to 20 with this deck. It is also worth noting that the list you copied is one of the higher casting cost versions of this archetype.

For example (excluding ability to cheat into play), his cmc is 109 vs. the more common mid 80s to high 90s.

[slaydo]

I like the interaction between recurring nightmare and yosei or kokusho because it gives either a soft lock/break stalemate or an alternate kill. Sun Titan can be really nuts at times. The only time I felt I needed the rectors was against combo elves to cheat deed into play. Sun Titan into deed before blocks is dirty as well.

After testing only a short time I feel this deck can be a pain to play against, it's niche and that is how I like it.

[Arianrhod]

I'm glad you're enjoying it, slaydo. I'd definitely recommend checking out my updated list (back a page at post 297, if that makes it easier to find). I believe (this is out my ass without checking) that my cmc has come down a bit, so the extra land may be unnecessary now. Also, and beyond any other real reason, you haven't lived until you've shot a Rector with Garruk Relentless. It's quite possibly the dirtiest feeling I've had in magic (and I play Oath in vintage). Relentless has a ridiculous amount of synergy with the rest of the deck.

That said, I certainly agree with Conboy -- more lands in this archetype rarely feels like a bad move. I usually don't run into trouble, but I'm also sitting at 22 land (if you count Dryad Arbor, which it periodically is). If you have any questions, feel free to either post them or shoot me a PM.

[Qweerios]

I am begining to think that Primeval Titan might be better than Grave Titan.

Primeval can:
-Trample;
-be fetched via GSZ;
-take less deck space;
-grabs you Volrath's Stronghold and another land such as Wasteland to get rid of Riptide Laboratory/Maze of Ith when it comes into play;
-overall offer you more versatility, resillience, and synergy.

Grave can:
-Deathtouch;
-grant you tokens as blockers or to kill your opponent quicker;
-be substituted by Deranged Hermit to some degree;
-give you bad starting hands and draws when played in multiples;
-overall grant you creatures instead of lands (the effect is more immediate) at a higher opportunity cost.

[Arianrhod]

Do with this as you will, Qweerios --

A few months ago, I had a similar notion, which led to a more combo finish concept, with Primeval fetching Coffers/Urborg and then using the bonkers mana resulting to loop Nightmare with Kokusho an arbitrarily large number of times. After testing it in one small local event, I dismissed it as hilarious and win-more, but if you sculpt the deck around it a bit more, there might be some design room there. It's also entirely possible that it's just absolutely janky and awful and should be tossed aside immediately.

I do agree that a good green 6 would be greatly appreciated -- the threshold of power between 5-drops and 6-drops is just enormous, and this deck doesn't care as much as most others. I think that at the moment, the best we can do is run a Fierce Empath...although that takes up a precious deck slot. At the same time, Zenithing for Empath into Sun Titan is about as big of a knockout as you can ask for.

[Qweerios]

Do with this as you will, Qweerios --

A few months ago, I had a similar notion, which led to a more combo finish concept, with Primeval fetching Coffers/Urborg and then using the bonkers mana resulting to loop Nightmare with Kokusho an arbitrarily large number of times. After testing it in one small local event, I dismissed it as hilarious and win-more, but if you sculpt the deck around it a bit more, there might be some design room there. It's also entirely possible that it's just absolutely janky and awful and should be tossed aside immediately.

Uhh... I don't know what is so similar there to be honest. I compared both titans for what they brought to the table and the restrictions they put on building the deck, no combos. I personally don't like the combo approach and disaprove of 6-drops altogether.

Also, has anybody else been having trouble against Blue Burn?

[Richard Cheese]

Uhh... I don't know what is so similar there to be honest. I compared both titans for what they brought to the table and the restrictions they put on building the deck, no combos. I personally don't like the combo approach and disaprove of 6-drops altogether.

Also, has anybody else been having trouble against Blue Burn?

Burn in general seems bad for this deck. Lots of basics, fast clock. Game 1 it seems like you have to hope to see multiple Therapies, and Finks if you run it. Leyline of Sanctity out of the board seems like it would make it a lot easier. Blue versions still have Delver and possibly Guide/Snapcaster to swing with, but Deed fixes those guys.

Edit: I also like Primeval better than Grave titan, just because tokens + Deed seems underwhelming, but I'm not convinced that either is entirely necessary.

[Qweerios]

Red Burn isn't as much of a problem as Blue Burn though. Red will run out of steam if you can land 1 discard spell and manage to find a finks. Everything you do against mono red goes uncountered. The thing about blue burn is that if I don't start, I lose. I can't get rid of Delver before it dishes out 6 damage, throw in Goblin Guide and even if I sweep the board on T4, I have 10-12 life remaining. Very fast decks tend to be hard to outlive. I am seriously considering the following for my sideboard as replacement for a couple of Damnation:


Sorin's Thirst
Infest
Tribute to Hunger
Consuming Vapors

[Richard Cheese]

Red Burn isn't as much of a problem as Blue Burn though. Red will run out of steam if you can land 1 discard spell and manage to find a finks. Everything you do against mono red goes uncountered. The thing about blue burn is that if I don't start, I lose. I can't get rid of Delver before it dishes out 6 damage, throw in Goblin Guide and even if I sweep the board on T4, I have 10-12 life remaining. Very fast decks tend to be hard to outlive. I am seriously considering the following for my sideboard as replacement for a couple of Damnation:


Sorin's Thirst
Infest
Tribute to Hunger
Consuming Vapors


What builds have you been testing against/having trouble with particularly? I'm also working on a U/R Burn deck at the moment, so I can definitely run through a few games on Cockatrice with you if you want. Could use some pointers on my budding but janky Nic Fit list anyway.

[Qweerios]

I finally settled on Consuming Vapors. It does everything i need from Damnation against Reanimator, Emrakul/Progenitus, Maverick/Deadguy (decks using Mother of Runes). It bought me back into Blue Burn and fast Zoo everytime i drew it.

Sorin's Thirst was too specific to the Blue Burn matchup and didn't really help against any other fast decks I had trouble with. Tribute to Hunger does a fine job being instant speed and 3 CMC, but cannot target Percy.

[Dia_Bot]

Hi guys,

I recently stumbled across a somewhat different Nit Fit list abusing gifts ungiven and after some testing I have to say it really like it.

The list:
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Eternal Witness
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Regrowth
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 The Abyss

I'm not say its optimal or anything but I just find it a blast to play. Is anyone still working on Gifts Ungiven lists or is the whole gifts concept abandoned?

[Tao]

@Removal: Damnation is horrible against Delver, but it is in the SB to keep being ahead against Maverick and Merfolk post board. But I don't think overcosted lifegain stuff is the answer to Delver decks either. 1 Mana removal is the key imo. The easiest way would be to use White for Swords to Plowshares but if you stick with Black Innocent Blood, Darkblast or Disfigure are viable choices.

@Gifts: Rafiq, War Monk and Doran seem like great Swords to Plowshares targets for them, though War Monk could be worth running against Lightning Bolt decks. Horizon Canopy is just too greedy. In Gifts lists I would play one Sun Titan, it makes a good target together with Recurring Nightmare and Witness.

Another option for Gifts decks would be to steal tech from Modern and add one Unburial Rites. It is an ok card on its own and if you only search two cards they both go to the yard so you get a free Reanimate of whatever you like but I am not sure if it is worth it.


@Primeval Titan: Sound very good, I will test it. Riptide Lab is such a plague and it could be a decent GSZ target. Grabbing Stronghold sounds nice.

[Arianrhod]

I have been still tinkering with my Gifts list alongside my primary list. Here's what I've got, for reference:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Frost Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Brainstorm
3x Gifts Ungiven

3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Living Wish
1x Regrowth

2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Dryad Arbor

//SB
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Trygon Predator

2x Krosan Grip*
4x Spell Pierce*
4x Hymn to Tourach*


Note: the asterisk'd sideboard slots (10 of them) are completely unknown at this point. They only reason there's a sideboard at all is so that I have the Wish targets laid out for Cockatrice. Also, Viridian Zealot sucks balls, but I have yet to find anything better, unfortunately.

My thoughts on the deck are as follows:

-) It's much, much scarier later-game than probably any other version. Nightmare loops with Snapcaster just feel dirty and wrong. Having access to Brainstorm also helps (shocking, I know). Fetches, Explorers, and GSZ give plenty of shuffles.

-) A 1-of Living Wish to put as a wild card for Gifts piles is amazing. Individual sideboard slots will vary, but Sky Swallower is still my UG control finisher of choice. Nothing kills that in legacy.

-) It's slow. Even with Explorers to ramp up (necessary for Gifts IMO), it's painfully, painfully slow. It definitely doesn't take a dump on aggro decks like the rock-colored lists, and Merfolk is actually pretty shitty if you don't see a Deed. Welcome to being a blue deck, I suppose.

-) It's not good against combo. The loss of Hymn without any counterspells added is brutal for your combo matchup. This is a deck that is designed to out-attrition control mirrors, and not do a whole hell of a lot else, apparently.

-) On the plus side, blue gives you Consecrated Sphinx, which is IMO the best 6-drop you could possibly use in an Explorer deck. By the time he lands, they won't have removal, and Explorers will have sucked out a lot of land from your deck, making every card he draws you gas. Every time I've resolved Sphinx, I've won. Period. Frost Titan isn't horrible, and gives you random outs to problems you might otherwise die to, but I think he's safely cuttable. Kokusho is industry-standard for my lists at this point. He's unmatched as an alternate wincon.

-) Speaking of alternate wincons, the best way to beat Jace is to play Jace. Sometimes the deck just plays like Jacestill, which is annoying and not really what I -want- to be doing with the deck, but Jace + Deed is indeed a thing (pun intended).

-----

TL;DR:

1. Gifts is slow, unwieldy against aggro, and has no game against combo. Different deck construction (more Gifts Rock, less Nic Fit) might fix that.

2. Gifts rapes control decks, hard. Consecrated Sphinx is Jesus on a cinnamon bun (no idea what this means, but it sounds good).

3. Living Wish is surprisingly useful.

4. At the end of the day, go for it. If you enjoy the Gifts version, build it. The glorious thing about this archetype is that you can literally build a rogue deck within the accepted shell, and it'll work at least some of the time. More than that, you'll have to work on it. But it's entirely possible to just plain have fun with some of these decks. My suggestion would be to look more along the lines of a Gifts rock utilizing the Explorer engine and Nic Fit concepts, as opposed to taking a Nic Fit deck and shoehorning Gifts in. It's just too slow, and weakens the matchups vs combo and aggro too much.

Oh, and if you're going to go down this path, you really, really need the 1-of Snapcaster. Seriously. Even before you start Nightmare-looping it, it's just dirty in a Gifts Pile. They never know if you're going to snap back something they just binned, or if you're going to snap back Gifts (!).

[Dia_Bot]

Thx for the replies!
The snapcaster/LW additions are really interesting. I didn't even think of those.
Anyway since there aren't a lot of aggro or combo decks in my meta lately I'm definitely going to do some more testing/research with a similar list.

[Tao]

Deck feateured by Caleb again on Channelfireball:

4-4 vs RUG

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/channel-nightmare-legacy-gauntlet-rug-vs-gb/

[Richard Cheese]

Actually it was a more controllish RUG build, no Delvers.

[from Cairo]

Actually it was a more controllish RUG build, no Delvers.

Yea Next Level Blue, but I feel like Nic Fit is pretty favored in this match up versus both Delver and then higher curve varieties of RUG. I think NLB has better game than Delver RUG, due to having basics and Jace, but they don't put up that crazy of a clock and a Veteran Explorers' trigger pushes past most of the tempo strategy.

Really I think this deck plays control better than most of the Blue control lists, outside it's ability to interact with Combo decks. I've been playing Maverick alot lately and have hit that "wall" where versus fair decks I feel totally in the game, versus Belcher, ANT, Show and Tell, etc, not having Force is a hard liability to overcome.

[Dia_Bot]

Yea Next Level Blue, but I feel like Nic Fit is pretty favored in this match up versus both Delver and then higher curve varieties of RUG. I think NLB has better game than Delver RUG, due to having basics and Jace, but they don't put up that crazy of a clock and a Veteran Explorers' trigger pushes past most of the tempo strategy.

Really I think this deck plays control better than most of the Blue control lists, outside it's ability to interact with Combo decks. I've been playing Maverick alot lately and have hit that "wall" where versus fair decks I feel totally in the game, versus Belcher, ANT, Show and Tell, etc, not having Force is a hard liability to overcome.

Actually it's Next Level ***** but I'm nit picking here :).

[conboy31]

Out of the recent suggestions for this deck I find a single Doran the most intriguing. It has applications by hitting three creatures in a tough archetype, taking 1 damage per swing from V. Clique, 2 per delver and 1 per snapcaster.

[Greenpoe]

I have recently settled on a Nic Fit list that I felt was best (giving up on GWb Maverick). I decided against Diabolic Intent simply because the card is inherently flawed. The secondary uses of Intent do not make up for the card advantage-for-card quality exchange. Diabolic Intent can safely be labeled as a win-more card. Now with less sac outlets for Percy, I followed Richard Cheese's advice and cut them down to 3.

Abyssal Nic Fit:

Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells (15)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Others (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Damnation


However, there is 1 slot I really cannot make up my mind about: What is the best GSZ target in GB to destroy Artifacts/Enchantments. The experience I've had with Wickerbough Elder has left me bitter. As I have explained before, by the time I have 6 lands on the board, I am either holding, or have already used a Pulse or a Deed, and fetching a Witness is about as good if not better. Viridian Shaman is limited to Artifacts only and isn't as versatile on the draw because playing him proactively in the absence of artifacts is suboptimal. Viridian Zealot (or Qasali Pridemage) is half the cost of Wickerbough for the same ability, but he dies in the process instead of leaving you with a 4/4 body. However, the fact that Zealot dies when activated makes him more abusive in conjunction with Witness and Stronghold. The main cards I find myself using GSZ to get rid of are Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaF. Against UW Counterblade, if they are on the draw, they can simply lay down a T1 SFM into T2 Batterskull and there is nothing I can do about it but try to Therapy/Hymn Batterskull away (assuming they don't counter). Against their wall of counters, I need to be able to come up with disruption and answers for Batterskull relentlessly in order to catch my breath and stomp them later (assuming they dont destroy me with Lab + Snap), and Wickerbough doesn't turn GSZ into early Bskull removal.

When I was reading about CalebD's top8 list, it got me thinking about the singleton Skeletal Scrying he wanted to implement. I can see how an EOT Scrying for 4+ get you back up in a losing game or seal the deal in a tied match, but I also see the card as a dead card to have in the early and mid-game. Also, bringing the board to a stall often leaves me with a low life total, making Scrying just as dead in the late-game. It seems to me that Volrath's Stronghold is just about as good in the late-game as Scrying without necessarily being dead in the early stages.

Here's my current build of Nic Fit:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Bayou
4 [SOM] Forest
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
5 [BD] Swamp

// Creatures
3 [FNM] Eternal Witness
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [V11] Progenitus
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ON] Gigapede

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JGC] Natural Order
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

Currently the only "flex" slots are Deranged Hermit (not sure if it's good enough to be a GSZ target/alternate NO target), the 2nd Thrun and Kitchen Finks. One of these cards might be better off as the Ooze or Spiritmonger (a GSZ'able 6/6 with regeneration for 5 is not bad). But besides those slots, the deck has been perfect. I don't play Grave Titan because Persecutor has been fine at doing virtually the same role, and there's no way to search for Grave Titan. I tried playing Living Wish as a 3-of for a while, but it was too slow.

Qweerios' build was pretty brilliant, but I made some changes: First, 2 Phyrexian Tower instead of 1. I realized I was almost always happy to see Phyrexian Tower. It's pretty amazing and enables plays like landing a turn 2 Progenitus or double Hymn and a Cabal Therapy on turn 2.

I know you guys might be skeptical of the lower curve, curving out at 4-5 mana (or 6 if you count GSZ'ing for Gigapede/Heritage Druid), but it's worked incredibly well, making hands without Explorer smoother, and making hands with it just plain explosive. The 3 Witnesses have been excellent and it's a perfect card for Veteran Explorer, as you can choose a target for E-Witness based on how much mana you have. Plus, hitting people with 2x Hymns is insane.

I'm now convinced that Abyssal Persecutor is one of the most underrated creatures in Legacy. He's been just fantastic in this deck, and flying is huge, especially when Cliques and Delvers are more common now than ever. Costing 4 mana is the main reason to use him over Grave Titan, though. I'm afraid Grave Titan might be a bit on the win-more side since he comes out so much later. Removing Persecutor has never been a problem. Like I said, a flying 6/6 that comes out on turn 2 or 3 even without Explorer is game-winning.

Gigapede is also awesome as a GSZ target. Shroud+resilience has been great. Gigapede, Thrun and Progenitus are the most resilient creatures in the game, so I run them all. Gigapede and and Thrun being immune to spot removal is extremely helpful, especially vs. Jace. Thrun's regeneration is randomly useful for surviving Deeds and whatever else.

The biggest change I made from Qweerios' list is adding a full 4 Natural Order, and it's been a great choice. I don't see any reason not to play a card that says "I win in two turns" in a deck that plays plenty of green creatures, just remember to grab a Dryad Arbor off a fetch in case you need some fodder for Natural Order (I frequently EOT grab Dryad Arbor then cast NO), or grab a Dryad Arbor in response to their Edict. Some people run 3 NO. That's a mistake. Resolving NO is the easiest way to win, so run 4. Disruption from Cabal Therapy + Hymn with Natural Order means the deck can race burn, combo, Elves, etc. Playing Natural Order often comes down to this: Force of Will? No? You lose. Adding more speed to a slow deck has worked wonders for me.

Hymn is amazing. I don't run white so I can comfortably run lots of BB and GG costs, such as Thrun, Persecutor, Hymn, NO, and Witness. Don't run less than 4 Hymn because its a card that says "Target player mulligans twice." It does a fantastic job of attacking the other player's resources and it just gets better with Therapy. If you're going to hit a resource, hit it hard.. Plus, fewer cards in hands + Legacy's low curve=they can get fewer benefits from Explorer. Hymn is also the saving grace for fast decks like burn and combo.

Finally, since Deed can't hit Planeswalkers, I run 4 Pulse and they've worked excellently.
Thoughts/criticisms?

[from Cairo]

@Greenpoe

I like the idea of incorporating Natural Order into the deck. It seems like a faster "combo finish" after stripping an opponents hand with Therapys and Hymns.

I'm not sure I'm on board with the 2nd Thrun and the additional Gigapede. These seem sort of superfluous when you have GSZ to fetch Thrun if you want it and NO -> Progenitus for finishers. I mean with 4 GSZ, 4 NO and a Thrun that's 9 midgame cards to put a Shroud guy on the table, under what circumstances are you looking for that number to be increased to 11?

I think Sensei's Divining Top is worth running at least as a 1-of, I'd probably run 2. Having some manipulation can really help find what you need, especially with many slots devoted to toolbox cards and disruption. I understand it getting the nod over Sylvan Library for it's superior interaction with Pernicious Deed.

@ Nic Fit discussion in general

I sort of like the idea of Avenger of Zendikar as an alt NO target in the GB build It can fill the Deranged Hermit role pretty well and isn't totally out of the realm of GSZ in the late game.

[Tao]

For the Sideboard vs. Delver it is either Dead Weight or Disfigure. Dead Weight is better when it can be used to permanently shrink other targets like Tarmogoyf. Disfigure is better when used to kill a Vendillion Clique / Snapcaster / Mindcensor / Mother of Runes.

Primeval Titan / Stronghold is very good. With Stronghold+Witness on Deed/Pulse/Swords to Plowshares you can control the lategame. A nice bonus is that Scavenging Ooze even enables you to destroy their recursion in G1 so you can beat the very late game without investing any slots. Wasteland is very bad if drawn though and I am not sure if it is worth it.



However, there is 1 slot I really cannot make up my mind about: What is the best GSZ target in GB to destroy Artifacts/Enchantments. The experience I've had with Wickerbough Elder has left me bitter. As I have explained before, by the time I have 6 lands on the board, I am either holding, or have already used a Pulse or a Deed, and fetching a Witness is about as good if not better. Viridian Shaman is limited to Artifacts only and isn't as versatile on the draw because playing him proactively in the absence of artifacts is suboptimal. Viridian Zealot (or Qasali Pridemage) is half the cost of Wickerbough for the same ability, but he dies in the process instead of leaving you with a 4/4 body. However, the fact that Zealot dies when activated makes him more abusive in conjunction with Witness and Stronghold. The main cards I find myself using GSZ to get rid of are Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaF. Against UW Counterblade, if they are on the draw, they can simply lay down a T1 SFM into T2 Batterskull and there is nothing I can do about it but try to Therapy/Hymn Batterskull away (assuming they don't counter). Against their wall of counters, I need to be able to come up with disruption and answers for Batterskull relentlessly in order to catch my breath and stomp them later (assuming they dont destroy me with Lab + Snap), and Wickerbough doesn't turn GSZ into early Bskull removal.


Jace/SFM is probably the hardest matchup, I agree with that. For the Artifact/Enchantment removal I just run Wickerbough Elder. I am of the opinion that creatures have to give value in this type of deck so if they Sword a creature they get 2-for-1-ed. Also Pridemage is only playable in GBw and in that deck I try to avoid 2-drops to become immune to Spell Snare.




When I was reading about CalebD's top8 list, it got me thinking about the singleton Skeletal Scrying he wanted to implement. I can see how an EOT Scrying for 4+ get you back up in a losing game or seal the deal in a tied match, but I also see the card as a dead card to have in the early and mid-game. Also, bringing the board to a stall often leaves me with a low life total, making Scrying just as dead in the late-game. It seems to me that Volrath's Stronghold is just about as good in the late-game as Scrying without necessarily being dead in the early stages.

I also don't like Skeletal Scrying. I think Garruk, Primal Hunter will be more reliable.

[routlaw]

I play a 3rd Top over the Skeletal Scrying in my version of Caleb's current list. The deck has enough shuffle effects to where having an active top lets you land haymaker after haymaker against anything midrange or control, and there's always ways to shuffle away a duplicate Top if you draw one.

It really helps you dig out of the 'few lands in play, 5-6cmc bomb in hand' predicament that the deck often has and really helps find answers lategame when you do have the mana but nothing to do with it. For examples of these kind of games, see the video series posted on CFB this week. One thing to keep in mind is that, drawing naturally without Explorer ramp, it is going to take a million years of Legacy Time to get to six mana. Top at least gives you a way of getting to your land if you run into a stifle on Explorer or spell snare on the GSZ to get an Explorer.

Top, to me, feels to me like the fourth best card in the deck , behind Cabal Therapy (1st), Explorer (2nd), and GSZ (3rd).

Other thoughts:

- I can't get behind Primeval Titan vs. Grave Titan, but at the same time I am not too big on Grave Titan either. Yes, red/blue decks can't really usually deal with him, but I rarely actually need him to win. Once you get four or five power worth of utility creatures (Finks, Witness, Ooze) beating down and they have one or no cards left in hand, it's over. When you do need an army Deranged Hermit delivers.

That being said, I haven't cut a Grave Titan from Caleb's list, though, because of the huge numbers of concession-upon-resolution Grave Titan gets.

Primeval Titan isn't bad though. If you aren't going to play enough Tops in the deck it's better than Grave Titan since you at least with Volrath's Stronghold you are always drawing gas. I can't get behind the Wasteland though, the only thing you want a Wasteland to deal with really is a Riptide Lab and against that you just eat their graveyard with Ooze.

- Recurring Nightmare shouldn't be cut. It's a reusable mana-dump for card advantage in this deck, and all the deck really wants to do in the lategame is use its large amounts of mana in some fashion. It comes online usually after blue decks have expended their countermagic. Even without Rector you don't need more than one if you run enough Tops to find it in the super-late game after you've dragged out half the land from your deck. It's always the best last card in your hand.

- I've had better success vs. combo boarding in a large discard package (a third Hymn, some Thoughtseizes, third Liliana, a singleton Teeg) with three Extirpates. You get kinda hosed by S&T combo decks running Leyline of Sanctity (though keep in mind they cannot mull into it) and especially Belcher variants, but you at least have a clear gameplan against combo-deploy your discard spells, recur them as needed with Witness, Extirpate their business, and lock them out of drawing into a critical mass for the rest of the game with Liliana's +1.

My total SB looks like (maindeck very similar to Caleb's list)

1 Nature's Claim
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Innocent Blood

Innocent Blood is way worse vs. Bant/Maverick than running Damnation, but is insane vs. the blue/red tempo decks where you REALLY want a 1 cmc removal that you can cast early (read: play around Daze) to stop a fast Delver of Secrets/Goblin Guide or turn two Tarmogoyf (the latter being way less scary). Innocent Blood gets the nod over Ghastly Demise because it's very good vs. the Emrakul cheatyface decks.

Claim over Grip because it can be a weird and decent source of lifegain (claim your own Top) against burn decks (where you want it anyway to fight Vortex) and Batterskull is like the least scary clock in the world against this deck and there are a lot or ways maindeck to deal with it (Deed@5 into Therapy/Hymn, Wickerbough, edicts, Pulse, block with Deathtouch Zombies, etc, etc, etc.). Counterbalance, the only other reason to play Claim, is a complete joke vs. this deck.

[Greenpoe]

I would rather run Scryb Ranger as a 1-of (GSZ target) in the SB than Disfigure/Dead Weight for the Delver MU. Protection from blue means it'll block their Delver, Snapcaster, and Clique all day. He can be useful vs. Jace as well since he won't get bounced. Flash means you can drop him in when they attack with the 1/1 Delver and kill it.

from Cairo, I'd say Hornet Queen is better than Avenger of Zendikar. 5 flying deathtouch creatures can swing the game in your favor at times when they're about to go lethal and Progenitus couldn't get race fast enough. The flying army is something neither Avenger nor Deranged Hermit have. Deranged Hermit hasn't been too great for me. I tried replacing the 2nd Thrun with Gaea's Revenge and she's been great, both as a NO target, GSZ target and even hardcast. Killing a full turn sooner than Progenitus has been very relevant. The pseudo-shroud is great, and uncounterable is always nice too. Just remember not to side out E-Witnesses when you're playing Natural Order.

[conboy31]

The problem with Ranger vs. the delver decks is that it is far less consistent than versus the clique + jace decks. Against UR delver they have ~ 4 bolts, 4 chain lightnings, 3ish fire and ice, 4 grim lavamancers + 4 snapcasters to rebuy. Taking into account spell snare if we try to hardcast it, and daze or FOW for a 3 mana GSZ over a third of their deck answers our Ranger.

Edit-> I am not saying 'it dies to removal so don't run it', as that can be said for most creatures ever printed. What I am trying to say is that our trump card for the MU should not be trumped back by a third of their maindeck.

[Fjedsen]

I think, green has some good cards vs Delver: Stingerfling Spider, Daybreak Ranger, Aerie Ouphies, Trophy Hunter, ...

I am currently testing a GBr build.

Here is the list:

Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Non-Creatures:
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate

2 Sarkhan the Mad

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands:
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Mountain
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke

Just messed around a bit and came to question: Would red be better ?
With Lightning Bolt we got reach to get the last points of life, to kill creatures, to kill Jace (!).
Flametongue is very nice with Recurring Nightmare and overall vs aggro decks.
Terminate replaces Swords/Dismember/Go for the Throat.
And Sarkhan FITs the sacrifice theme very well. Sacc Explorer and getting two lands + 5/5 Dragon ? Nice.
Inferno Titan is nice but not necessary ... I am looking for some better cards to go with this build.

SB:
Pillar vs Combo
Ancient Grudge is soooo good vs Batterskull, Sword, etc. ...

I am looking forward to test Bloodbraid Elf a bit more but I'm guessing he isn't that good when cascading into Zenith or temporary bad cards.

Greets

[Richard Cheese]

I think a couple cards are really getting overlooked here. First is Cursed Scroll. It comes online pretty fast if you can get at least one Explorer activation, and none of the Delver or SFM decks can deal with it pre-board. Takes care of extra mana late in the game, and can also be used to off your own Explorer if you really need to.

Second is Dungrove Elder. Guy is seriously pretty nuts. He seems to come down between 4 and 6 power, and turns late-game Explorers into bombs.

I tried Primeval and Avenger, but just wasn't that thrilled. I ether never made it to 7/8 mana, or had the game locked down by that point anyway.

I also run 3 Tops, and don't think I would cut any. In a deck where you really want to see specific combinations of cards, it's invaluable to have good card selection.

[conboy31]

Fjedsen, if you cut Grave Titan from your list you can have only single black spells. This would allow for the trimming of 1 or 2 swamps giving you a more robust manabase at the cost of swapping a titan or adding a different bomb.

[Tao]

Red as 3rd color compared to white: The only white card worth playing, MD and SB, is Swords to Plowshares but it is a very good one.

Not sure how Sarkhan would perform compared to Garruk PM but I doubt he would be much better. Flametongue Kavu is an inferior version of Skinrender (sad but true) and Terminate is an inferior Path to Exile so those cards are no reason to go into red.
So it comes down to Lightning Bolt vs. Swords to Plowshares and Sideboard choices. If they have Jace and know about the Bolts they will +2 it but the option is still very good. I would still prefer Swords to Plowshares though because of Jin Gitaxias, KotR and Tombstalker. For the Sideboard I think you forgot Red Blasts. I would love to have access to those, sniping Brainstorms, Delvers; Jin Gitaxias and Merfolk is great and getting Snapcasters and Jaces on the stack even better.

[Richard Cheese]

Red as 3rd color compared to white: The only white card worth playing, MD and SB, is Swords to Plowshares but it is a very good one.

Not sure how Sarkhan would perform compared to Garruk PM but I doubt he would be much better. Flametongue Kavu is an inferior version of Skinrender (sad but true) and Terminate is an inferior Path to Exile so those cards are no reason to go into red.
So it comes down to Lightning Bolt vs. Swords to Plowshares and Sideboard choices. If they have Jace and know about the Bolts they will +2 it but the option is still very good. I would still prefer Swords to Plowshares though because of Jin Gitaxias, KotR and Tombstalker. For the Sideboard I think you forgot Red Blasts. I would love to have access to those, sniping Brainstorms, Delvers; Jin Gitaxias and Merfolk is great and getting Snapcasters and Jaces on the stack even better.

White also gives you access to hardcast Pridemage if you draw into it, also Teeg and Canonist in the board.

[Arianrhod]

I'll also chime in that red isn't really where we want to be. Some things like Urabrask can be decent, and it does allow for some good sideboard options, but I'd like blue (for ConSphinx, Jace, and maybe Gifts), or just the standard white as better 3rd colors. Red seems the weakest to me.

Also, I'm surprised that Primal Hunter is still the gold standard amongst everyone. Relentless just feels so much better for the deck -- he's a sac outlet + powerhouse with Vet (or god forbid Rector), and he can be used to remove threats when necessary, while also supplying a clock. He also makes Master of the Wild Hunt stupid good.

[Fjedsen]

I guess you're right. Red isn't that good. I was messing around, and remembered this extented list from looooong ago:

2 Mountain
6 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Vampiric Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Cranial Extraction

Sideboard
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Withered Wretch
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
3 Engineered Plague

The creature base looks so synergistic with Recurring Nightmare, that I thought I could give it a chance.

I'm fine tunig the list though ;)

[Arianrhod]

Clearly needs Veteran Explorer -- Solemn won't do the trick, I don't think. Otherwise, seems interesting anyway.

I'll be playing my Double Dragon version tomorrow (today?) at Jupiter. Changes include maindeck O-Ring in lieu of 1 Hymn to Tourach (shaky gut feeling about this, but Snare IS everywhere, and O-Ring -has- done work when it's been in the deck in the past), and 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Swords in the SB in place of 2 Swords and 1 Finks. We'll see how it goes. I'm optimistic about the Bloods and have come to the conclusion that 3 was too many Finks all along.

[Tao]

@Arian:
First of all try a Faith's Fetters as a Rector target! They swing the game around against Aggro. Getting a Delver and neutralizing their next Bolt can win games that no other card could.
But they also get problem cards like Elspeth, Jace TMS and Riptide Laboratory in the control matchup. They get protected stuff like Emrakul, Batterskull and Mother of Runes which is a nice bonus. If you search Fetters from your library they would have to react to the Rector trigger and most of the times they either don't know they have to do that or they just can't. And unless they have Removal for the Fetters which almost no one has they lock the permanents down on the battlefield so they can't get Batterskull back with Academy Ruins and they can't play another Jace. I am 100% sure that Fetters will improve the deck. You can easily cut a Deed for it, two are enough with Rector plus they have been disappointing for me recently, usually it is an overpriced Damnation that can die to Pridemage, Pithing Needle and Stifle.

I am not 100% sure but I feel like your deck might want 2-3 Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck because they make the life so much easier against most decks. With 13 cards with CMC 4 or higher (plus Mana sinks like Fierce Empath, Deed, Witness and GSZ) you are imo a bit too heavy on the high end of the curve. I'd say cut 2-3 of the more expensive cards for Swords.

I am unsure about this but I have recently cut Hymn altogether from my GBw and so far I don't miss them. I just play 2-3 Inquisition of Kozilek to supplement the Therapies. The advantages are that it lowers your curve, it improves your mana (you could replace Urborg with a Fetchland) and that it makes Spell Snare a dead card for them.

[bowvamp]

About the list on the previous page: Vampiric Tutor = banned.

[D. Watta]

@bowvamp // @ arianrhod

Note that list is from old extended.

@thread

The initial GBR list posted reminds me of surviveteran. I've also thought of FTK before and it certainly has merits over skinrender, such as having 4 power instead of 3, shooting for 4 dmg instead of 3 -1/-1 (which becomes more important if you are utilizing recurring nightmare) and demanding only one red as opposed to two black.

Interested to see what testing shows before deciding a red splash is worthless. Let's remember people were turning their noses up at Blue Zoo for weeks before it was finally embraced.

[Greenpoe]

Red gives Burning Wish, which means you can wish for Damnation, a win-con like Call the Skybreaker, or answers to almost anything.

In other news, I've been testing a 2nd Dryad Arbor, mainly to get fetched by fetchlands for use with NO (even with the low green creature count, NO is still insane as an "oops I win" type card), but it's also useful to surprise block a Confidant, come out in response to Liliana's -2, or grab it to just chump block when they think there's no blockers. I've also been testing out Glissa, the Traitor as a 1-of GSZ target, just because first strike+death touch can make them really not want to attack, then they have to overextend, which makes Deed insane.

[Arianrhod]

@Tao -- It's funny, because I was originally running Fetters and promptly forgot that it existed when I was sifting through my binder last night trying to find my O-Ring. Oops. I've also come to the conclusion that I need to speed the deck up a little. Jupiter didn't go the greatest today, with the exception of actually meeting and playing against someone else from the thread, running the GB Abyssal version. I'm sorry that I didn't get his Source name, but I'm sure he'll turn up somewhere. Knell did nothing for me, and I think that the meta has shifted enough at this point that it just isn't good anymore, as much as it pains me to say it, since I have won many games off of it. I've also been looking at Hymn with increasingly distrustful eyes, although I worry a lot about our combo matchup without it. It may be that we should adopt the stance the Rock thread is currently taking, by dropping Hymn for more 1cc discard -- that seems much better against Stoneblade, which is rapidly becoming a problem again after disappearing for a little while.

I'll submit a full report (and I took notes on sideboarding this time...mostly!) sometime tomorrow or Monday, after I've passed out and had a chance to detox.

One parting shot: I am just as firmly convinced as ever that Garruk Relentless is the planeswalker of choice for this deck. If you doubt me on this, I beg you to test it. I'll admit that he'll be less impressive in a straight G/B version w/o rector, but whether shooting Vets, Delvers, SFMs, Cliques, Hierarches, etc etc etc, or whether it's Bitterblossoming or tutoring up whatever creature you need at the moment, he's just freaking amazing in here.

[Tao]

@bowvamp // @ arianrhod

Note that list is from old extended.

@thread

The initial GBR list posted reminds me of surviveteran. I've also thought of FTK before and it certainly has merits over skinrender, such as having 4 power instead of 3, shooting for 4 dmg instead of 3 -1/-1 (which becomes more important if you are utilizing recurring nightmare) and demanding only one red as opposed to two black.

Interested to see what testing shows before deciding a red splash is worthless. Let's remember people were turning their noses up at Blue Zoo for weeks before it was finally embraced.

I didn't mean to dismiss the idea. I just wanted to compare Red with White for the deck. Bolt plus Red Blasts plus maybe some other stuff might very well be better.
But anyway. FTK is straight up worse than Skinrender. 4/2 and 3/3 are similar P/T stats. The easier mana cost is on FTKs side but that is by far outweighed by Skinrender being better against big creatures. He dominates a 4/5 or 5/6 Goyf and also buys a lot of time against Tombstalker while FTK is doing nothing against them.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod
One of the reasons I stopped playing GWb Mav in favor of Nic Fit was to play Hymn. It is the most broken card black has to offer, and I do not say that lightly. Although, as a general guideline, I try to stay away from it as much as possible in 3-colored decks because it probably won't land on T2 with no alternate cost. Hymn is extremely efficient but loses its appeal when it puts a strain on your manabase. Also, Hymns are extremely synergetic with board sweepers, they force your opponent to overextend in the midgame rather than play around Deed.

On another note, I brought the deck to a couple of small events (20-30 ppl) and did fairly well. At my greatest dissapointment, I don't own any Lilianas yet but I am glad the deck has been performing well for me. I have also adopted the 4/2 split with Pulse/Deed for the following reasons:

-Jace > Nic Fit, playing against a deck landing a jace and packing enough counter/removal is akin to running into a wall.
-Deed has narrower application than Pulse, sweepers aren't great against every non-storm deck. Deeds are also deathly slower against decks that can answer them.
-Board sweepers are best kept in the sideboard.

As far as the Artifact destruction GSZ target dilemma goes, I have settled on Zealot for now and won't look back at Wickerbough. Having a silver bullet against artifacts, to me, is not about creating an opportunity for card advantage, it is about getting rid of Batterskull ASAP. My opponent is putting pressure on me with a T3 Bskull, I don't want to let him untap. If I am relying on Wickerbough to answer Bskull, I have to:

-get my skull battered for 2 turns, then;
-trump Bskull to be able to remove him, while I;
-hope my opponent doesn't play anything else to kill me while I take my sweet time.

The main difficulties I have been facing in the last weeks and that I'd like to improve on have been:

a) Jace, 1/1's can't pressure him and having your opponent brainstorm every turn is troubling to say the least;
b) Dark Confidant, when played on T2, his ability snowballs extremely fast, especially when he is preceded by a T1 Thoughtseize/Mom.
c) Geist of Saint Traft, backed by removal and counters, he can generally close the game in 3 swings. However, I can attribute some of my difficulty answering Geist to my lack of Lilianas.
d) Sword of Feast and Famine/Mirran Crusader, very difficult for strict G/B to deal with...

On an unrelated note, Consuming Vapors has been performing extremely well. I have been more satisfied with Vapors than Damnation for two excellent reasons:

1. It is 1 sided.
2. It is backbreaking against U/R Delver.dec, Tempo Thresh, Team America, and Zoo.

On the topic of adding a third color, I think red definitely has more to offer than white. I don't think StP, Vindicate, and Qasali Pridemage support a white splash on their own (StP being the only important addition). Red, however, offers Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Artifact Mutation, andDestructive Flow for instance. Cards definitely worth exploring. I probably wouldn't play Lightning Bolt > Terminate because the burn reach isn't all that useful for this deck and Bolts can't get rid of a Percy. Artifact Mutation sounds like a neat way to get rid of Batterskull and Swords of X and Y. Destructive Flow is also an interresting way to abuse a high basic land count.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Red also adds rolling earthquake, which could be a way to get rid of planeswalkers + swarms.

[Arianrhod]

I think that comparing Hymn to something like Necropotence or Yawg Will is a little bit of an overestimation. The only time I could agree is when you land a turn 1 Hymn through Rituals or Moxen -- at that point, Hymn does have the potential to just straight up win games. Hymn on turn two or three is far less impressive, however, since blue decks have the option to Snare or Brainstorm in response, and everyone else has probably already done something. Hymn is one of the few ways we have to interact with what our opponents are doing with Explorer mana, however, which is definitely important -- at the same time, Hymn doesn't always get what you want, whereas targeted discard can sculpt their line of play very nicely to what you want it to be.

DFlow seems very counter to the intentions of the deck. I recognize, certainly, that most decks don't run enough basics, and it would indeed hurt them. But for those decks that do run basics, it seems poor to give them the very lands that Flow wouldn't kill. Also, if you're having tons of trouble with Jace (which the archetype as a whole does), then I would certainly play Bolt over Terminate, since Bolt lets you hit Jace. I guess it depends on what you're taking out for them, but I'd imagine that you should have plenty of answers for getting rid of your Percy.

Note that I will defend Rector and Sun Titan until I no longer play this deck. Swords/Vindicate/Pridemage aren't the only reasons to play white; indeed, I don't think they're the main reason to play white.

Of course, at the end of the day, it all comes down to your personal paradigm. This deck is very Nietzschean -- "there is no right or wrong way, only a way. This is mine, what's yours?" I personally love Rector and the broken things that it lets me do. Other people, such as yourself, prefer Percy for the rapid kills it can generate (I'm assuming, since it's a much faster list). Still other people like the flexibility of Birthing Pod. Etc, etc. I don't think arguing for a "best version" is where the thread should go. Instead, I think that it would be far more productive if everyone supported everyone else and helped to make everyone's personal lists the best their individual paradigms can be. These are my feelings; mileage may vary.

[Rafa]

I think that comparing Hymn to something like Necropotence or Yawg Will is a little bit of an overestimation. The only time I could agree is when you land a turn 1 Hymn through Rituals or Moxen -- at that point, Hymn does have the potential to just straight up win games. Hymn on turn two or three is far less impressive, however, since blue decks have the option to Snare or Brainstorm in response, and everyone else has probably already done something. Hymn is one of the few ways we have to interact with what our opponents are doing with Explorer mana, however, which is definitely important -- at the same time, Hymn doesn't always get what you want, whereas targeted discard can sculpt their line of play very nicely to what you want it to be.

DFlow seems very counter to the intentions of the deck. I recognize, certainly, that most decks don't run enough basics, and it would indeed hurt them. But for those decks that do run basics, it seems poor to give them the very lands that Flow wouldn't kill. Also, if you're having tons of trouble with Jace (which the archetype as a whole does), then I would certainly play Bolt over Terminate, since Bolt lets you hit Jace. I guess it depends on what you're taking out for them, but I'd imagine that you should have plenty of answers for getting rid of your Percy.

Note that I will defend Rector and Sun Titan until I no longer play this deck. Swords/Vindicate/Pridemage aren't the only reasons to play white; indeed, I don't think they're the main reason to play white.

Of course, at the end of the day, it all comes down to your personal paradigm. This deck is very Nietzschean -- "there is no right or wrong way, only a way. This is mine, what's yours?" I personally love Rector and the broken things that it lets me do. Other people, such as yourself, prefer Percy for the rapid kills it can generate (I'm assuming, since it's a much faster list). Still other people like the flexibility of Birthing Pod. Etc, etc. I don't think arguing for a "best version" is where the thread should go. Instead, I think that it would be far more productive if everyone supported everyone else and helped to make everyone's personal lists the best their individual paradigms can be. These are my feelings; mileage may vary.

Dude you are my hero!

[Tao]

Nic Fit Top8ed the German 242 man "Win a Lotus" Legacy tournament. Lists are not out yet, hope they come soon.

[Qweerios]

I think that comparing Hymn to something like Necropotence or Yawg Will is a little bit of an overestimation.

Well, by that logic, why not compare it to Demonic Tutor, or even Black Lotus... its name does contain the word "black" after all. What I should have said was:

"Hymn to Tourach is the most broken legacy-playable card that the color black on the Magic: the Gathering color wheel has to offer."

About splashing a third color for this deck, I think I will try it at the next event I attend this week. Putting the difficulties I encountered in perspective, I think a light red splash for Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast would fix the Delver/Jace/Snap problem. Substituting a forest for a mountain and 2 Bayous for a Badland and a Taiga is such a minor change to the manabase, it looks harmless. Here is what I intend to play:


Creature (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Land (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Damnation

[from Cairo]

Is Vithian Renegades not better than Viridian Shaman in the Red splash builds? I guess there are a few Enchantments that it can be nice to answer if your meta has the GBw Rector build or Enchantress, but one does have Pulse and Deed too.

[Arianrhod]

Well, by that logic, why not compare it to Demonic Tutor, or even Black Lotus... its name does contain the word "black" after all. What I should have said was:

"Hymn to Tourach is the most broken legacy-playable card that the color black on the Magic: the Gathering color wheel has to offer."

Well, technically you should say that it's the most broken legacy-legal card, since playable has a different set of meanings within the context, and I'm pretty sure that Necropotence is strictly playable. But I'm not here to argue semantics =) That's my last word on the matter.

As per my statement RE that we should be making everyone's individual decks better rather than arguing:

-) I reiterate that I feel that Bolt is probably superior to Terminate. It answers Jace better main, when you don't have REBs/Pyros to work with. Also, I'm inclined to think that it's a better spot removal in general due to the prevalence of Spell Snare, and the fact that it opens up your spot removal to a second color of protection from:'s when it doesn't need to be. If you have to deal with an untransformed Delver equipped with a Feast/Famine, I think you're going to be a little unhappy with Terminate. I'll grant that it may not come up that often, but being able to have the extra damage to planeswalkers (not just Jace btw; Elspeth 1 can be a bitch to deal with, too), and dodging Snare are probably sufficient reasons to make the switch.

-) I approve of Pulse. That's a card that I haven't been running, that I'm looking at squeezing in. If Terminate becomes Bolt to deal with smaller early threats before their respective decks have a chance to get set up, I think this is the perfect number. Not having any 1cc spot seems risky.

-) I'm not a fan of cutting Recurring Nightmare at all, since it's the primary reason that this archetype can literally out control a control deck. It's another sac outlet for Percy, and being able to recycle Witnesses and Hermit is worthy of a 1-of include on its own. On the other hand, you do have Volrath's Stronghold, which serves a little of the same use. I'd run them alongside each other, personally -- that improves your late game without costing you your draw step, but also gives you a backup option which is more than capable of taking over a game on its own.

-) The 1-of Artifact Mutation in the board feels forced. It's your only artifact spot removal, it's Spell Snare-able, and it also doesn't hit enchantments -- people are fond of bringing in Leyline of the Void against us if they have it, and it can be important to kill that. Turning off your Cabal Therapy flashbacks can be brutal, especially for a version that wants to win off of Percy.

-) I don't know what your local meta is like, but I feel that you have a little too much graveyard hate for an average meta. This deck eats dredge alive without any help necessary, although reanimator is a problem. If reanimator is an issue (or even in general), then I would suggest the following:

2x Surgical
2x Extirpate
2x Pyroblast
2x R.E.B.
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Finks
1x Damnation
2x Krosan Grip
2x Beast Within

I feel that something like this gives you a lot of play against everything in the format, including answers in two colors to Iona. They'll almost certainly name black, if they can fight through surgicals and extripates, which, with REB/Pyros as backup, you should be fine forcing them through. I don't think you need so much hate -- just a touch should do it.

Without a Reanimator presence, I would cut the Pates and +1 Surgical, and then +1 whatever else you want.

-) Everything else seems solid. Regardless of our disagreements, best of luck running it!

[Qweerios]

I tested the red splash and experimented with sideboard nearly all day in preperation for a local tournament. I came to the following conclusions:

-Artifact Mutation is indeed too cute. Arianrhod was right about it being spell snare-able. It is an issue, and Krosan Grip is simply better.

-Pyroblast/REB are amazing. They solved all of my problems. Coupled with discard, 1CMC Counterspells/Vindicates are absolutely devastating against any blue-based deck. They also solved the issues I had with Delver, Jace, and Snapcaster. I upped the count to 6 in the sideboard.

The reason for all the GY hate is because I took CalebD's sideboard as a reference when I started playing the deck. I think that the general premise was that Nic Fit would trump any non-dredge/combo decks in the meta and that sideboard space should mostly be dedicated to those matchups. Reanimator is practically a Bye with Terminate, Therapy, Pyroblast, REB, Crypt, Spellbomb, Extraction, and Ooze. Dredge, however, can be difficult if you are solely relying on Ooze.

When playing Percy, Lightning Bolt isn't an option. I understand that it can't be Spell Snared, it can take out a Jace after a brainstorm and burn a T1 Delver/Mom, or burn a T2 Bob on the draw, but it cannot destroy Percy. The tricky part about playing around Percy's drawback is to have an overabundance of ways to remove him. If you have a good amount of outlets (say 12 for 3 Percy), siding out therapies/deeds becomes a headach. The more outlets, the better. Besides, Terminate does a fine job at removing Goyf, KotR, and Tombstalker.

Current Sideboard:

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Damnation
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg


Which is better between Vapors and Damnation?

-They both answer Emrakul and Progenitus;
-Damnation is better against Elves and decks with Mom;
-Damnation is immediate;
-Vapors is 1 sided;
-Vapors gains you life against Tempo Thresh and Zoo.

[Greenpoe]

My build is similar to yours, but I run Natural Order. I'm currently trying it with no Progenitus at all and Gaea's Revenge as the maindeck target instead, since she has a reasonable casting cost if you draw her or just GSZ for 8 instead of using NO. If you resolve NO, you're probably going to win anyway, and sometimes she is actually better than Prog, too. Having no dead cards has definitely helped, and sometimes I've even used Natural Order when I had Gaea's Revenge in hand. Using Gaea's Revenge is like Proggy in so many ways (can't be hit by Swords, Bolt, Dismember, etc.), but the haste can make NO feel like a burn spell. It can catch your opponent off guard for the instant-kill. Haste rocks.

To help support NO, I run 3 E-Witness, 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Ohran Viper, and 1 Glissa, the Traitor (along with Thrun+Dryad Arbor of course). Finks, Glissa and the Viper serve excellently as my GSZ toolbox, too, and I'm always happy to draw any one of them.

I'm surprised you put Kitchen Finks in the SB. Gaining life means the game goes on longer. 3 power is pretty decent for pinging away at them/blocking&killing or just double-block to stall. Plus, living through Perish/Wrath of God/Liliana's -2 is definitely useful.

I think you should consider Glissa the Traitor. You mentioned needing a GSZ target to fight Batterskull, but Glissa is great at that. Dying to bolt/StP is annoying, but she's absolutely fantastic at slowing the game down, which is what this deck wants to do. First strike and deathtouch is an insane combination since their creature dies before combat damage. One Glissa can hold back a couple Goyfs and KotR because they don't want to lose an army all to one creature. Glissa can be pretty nuts as a GSZ target.

Viper is kind of like a green Confidant. 3 toughness is great, deathtouch rocks, and the CA it gives you works wonders. I realized that since I use Maelstrom Pulse so often just to kill creatures, might as well just add deathtouch creatures.

[Alexeezay]

Just tested Gaea's Revenge because you suggested it...and I must admit it's awesome!! Best finisher ever, what will they do about it? :)

[Whippoorwill]

I played the BG version tonight (2-2) and tried out a different finisher I haven't seen suggested:

Rampaging Baloths

Works quite well with Fetchlands and Explorers and can be searched out with Zenith. Trample can also be nice.

Just something worth trying out.

[Arianrhod]

If I were to play a 7-drop that isn't Debtors' Knell (which is almost never actually a 7-drop), Revenge is what I would play, no question. I've considered things like Vish Kal and even Sheoldred in the past, but I've never brought myself to actually play a 7-drop creature when I have 3 6's already.

RE: Dredge. I'll grant that Dredge isn't a matchup that I've tested much (or at all). However, there are certain facts about dredge that I know from playing vs my roommate's vintage dredge: they don't like it when you kill your own creatures, at all, and they cannot win if Pernicious Deed is in play/if you have a creature in play larger than 3 toughness. G1 they will probably just explogasm all over the board unless you land a fast deed or a Moat, in which case you're probably fine. G2/3, I would assume that Surgicals on their Dread Returns and Ichorids should shut them completely down, along with the aforementioned goodies. But, I'll reiterate that I really just don't know. It isn't a matchup I worry about much, regardless.

My report from Jupiter:

For reference, my list:

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
3x Academy Rector
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Sun Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Green Sun's Zenith

2x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

1x Moat
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtors' Knell

3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor

//SB
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Innocent Blood
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Memoricide
1x Gaddock Teeg


Round 1: James Rynciewiciez - whose last name I have mangled horribly.

I knew going in that this was going to be bad, but I was feeling on the okay side of bad. The last three Jupiter events, I'd seen him playing High Tide. Game 1 is miserable, but G2/3, High Tide is almost unloseable for me.

I therapy on t1, naming Brainstorm. He reveals Brainstorm, Dryad Arbor, Force, Clique, Daze, Tundra, Misty. Welp. That isn't High Tide at all.

I do a few things and he makes a Progenitus off a ripped NO, to compliment his Clique. I have Garruk and Rector in hand, and could land Moat at 1 life...and then die to the Clique. I take a chance on hitting a Therapy/Tower on top of my deck, shooting Clique with Garruk, and hoping to find a sac outlet for Rector to live. I didn't get there.

Out: 2x Garruk, 2x Hymn, Kokusho, Knell. In: Choke, 2x Innocent Blood, Teeg, 2x Memoricide

G2 is very uninteresting. He makes a turn 3 Progenitus, again off of a NO on top of his deck as opposed to in his hand, and I manage to Choke him before I die. Whoop di do.

Round 2: Mike Van Tosh with Zoo

Last time I played Mike, he was running a tempo deck. I'm ehh about that, but my mood improves considerably when he goes land, Nacatl, go. I love byes...I mean...zoo.

He makes a bazillion cats, and I can't find a Deed or a Rector to save my life. I start to get worried that I might lose my first ever game against zoo, but my luck has other things to say about it, as he fails to draw a burn spell or a land for his Steppe Lynxes for two turns. That gives me time to drop to 1, land a Sun Titan -> Scav Ooze, and then proceed to gain life off of the Ooze, then drain him for 5 with Kokusho. #Winning.

Out: 1 Hymn, Knell. In: 2 Finks

G2 is amazingly unremarkable. I land a Moat, then a Garruk, then proceed to play Survival post-ban. He dies to dragons very quickly. I found out after the game that he actually boarded out his Pridemages, and didn't bring in any Grips -- not seeing Deed or Moat g1 actually helped, amusingly enough.

Round 3: Carson Yeager with UW Stoneblade

I hadn't seen any of the old guard blue decks yet, so I figured that I was due. He drops a pair of fast Delvers and goes to down. I try to fight back, and get counter walled and swordsed into oblivion.

Out: Moat, 3 Hymn, Knell (see a pattern?). In: Choke, Swords, 2 Bloods, Chains

I don't know this at the time, since my Therapies were hiding, but I find out later that is opening hand is something like Land, Land, Delver, Swords, Swords, Swords; with a Jitte on top. You can probably guess where this goes. I do a few inconsequential things while he drops a Delver, which naturally flips. Then I drop Chains, and I go through the usual 5 minute process of explaining to blue mages that Brainstorm is now the worst card in their deck. He accepts this, then loots for a Ponder. Eventually Jitte happens, with every creature I have played by this point having been Swords'd. I have one last chance to stabilize, with a Deed...which gets met with the last two cards in his hand being Force-blue card. Rage.

Round 4: Andrew with the mothereffing mirror.

We chat for a while before the match, and he explains that two of his three rounds so far have been Reanimator. I commiserate, thinking of my own problems with that deck. It doesn't occur to me that it might be a mirror. Like, the concept never even entered my mind.

He leads with basic Swamp -> Top, go. My thoughts are Deadguy, so I accordingly name Dark Confidant with my first Therapy. He reveals Eternal Witness, Abyssal Percy, and 2 Veteran Explorers. Jigg is up, now. As I drop my Explorer, the realization that this is a mirror really sets in for both of us. We chat a lot throughout the match, and I know he recognized me from this thread, although I didn't think to ask for his Source name. I'm guessing he'll turn up at some point. He drops a Percy, which I Deed away. Then he drops another Percy, but I have Sun Titan -> Deed, and start going broken. I think I actually hit Nightmare this game naturally, too, but I don't remember that well.

Neither of us has a bloody clue of what we're doing with our sideboards. I do the following: Out: 3 Hymn, Qasali. In: 2 Bloods, 2 Leylines.

G2 is much more of a blowout. Garruk does some serious work here, as does Master of the Wild Hunt. He drops a Hornet Queen, which gets shot with Master and then the tokens get Deeded away. Garruk quickly takes the game over from there.

Round 5: Will with WUR Stoneblade

I don't even feel like going into detail on this one. I just got ripped wide open by this deck. I wasn't even really close at any point, and at this point, I had people clamoring at me to drive them home because I was the last one still in. I also didn't take sbing notes for this matchup.

At this point, I'm looking at taking out Hymn completely, in favor of more 1cc discard. I'm also moving one Finks maindeck, because I've wanted to do that for a long time, and just never had the space. I'm hoping to squeeze in something like 2x Pulse, 2x Swords. The various Delver/Stoneblade decks are just mandating some kind of spot removal maindeck now. Debtors' Knell is coming out again, and probably staying out this time. I remain content with most aspects of the deck, though...I just need to adjust it towards Stoneblade a bit. I'll be posting an updated list at some point in the next day or two with these changes in mind.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod

I am very curious as to why you would side out Hymn against NO Bant, UW Stoneblade, and Nic Fit. What was your reasoning behind these choices?

Aside from that, it seems to me like you had some pretty good matchups. Going 5 rounds without facing combo is unheard of around here.

[Arianrhod]

Stoneblade and NO Bant both showed me Spell Snares, and I'd rather blank them than take a chance that it might possibly hit. Vs Nic Fit, I feel that Hymn isn't that great to keep in. Most Nic Fit decks have a tendency of emptying their hand rather quickly due to spewing forth lands. Also, it can be very dangerous if you hit a big threat and next turn they go Nightmare -> bring it back. I've done that, and I have no desire to be on the opposite side.

If you're in a combo heavy meta, though, ignore my arguments about taking out Hymn.

[Greenpoe]

If you don't have Hymn vs. red burn and UR burn, you're almost guaranteed to lose. I wouldn't want to face Merfolk without Hymn either. Counters+early game pressure is difficult to beat, but I suppose in your version, you've got Academy Rectors to grab Moat, but they can still fly over it. I imagine the 3-color manabase makes it hard to cast Hymn, but in straight GB, I think Qweerios would agree that Hymn is a card that never (or almost never) gets boarded out. I would only board it out vs. Lands. The dodging Spell Snare argument is problematic because that means you can't even GSZ for 1 for Veteran Explorer. Sometimes, you can even just play around Spell Snare by waiting for them to tap out. For example, Stone Blade often taps out on turn 2 for Stoneforge. Lately, I've been seeing a lot more people playing Spell Pierce over Snare. Even so, there's only a certain number of decks that run Snare, and about a 40% chance it'll be in their opening hand or so. At worst, you can board out Hymn in G2 and G3 and they'll keep in their Snares. This deck doesn't have much to do on the early turns anyway. Is giving them free tempo (i.e., doing nothing on turn 2) really worth dodging Spell Snare for?

[Qweerios]

How is Hymn getting Spell Snared a problem? It's a 1 for 1 exchange that only ends in a 2 for 1 trade in your favor in the absence of said counterspell. I don't understand this whole ''dodge Spell Snare'' thing going on here. As far as I know, Spell Snare doesn't win games. Believe it or not, there are many decks out there that play plenty of 2 CMC spells and still manage to beat decks packing a whole playset of Spell Snares.

As far as the mirror goes, I have playtested against CalebD's version as well as a couple of different GBw versions several times. The whole matchup is played around Hymn and Therapy. You take turns stripping eachothers' hands and the first one to play a Top usually wins, otherwise nothing stays on the board for either side.

I agree with Greenpoe that Hymn is a card I would never side out (except against Dredge). Hymn is good against almost every single deck out there because it is never a play that leaves you at a disadvantage. It is one of these cards that almost always warrant a Force of Will despite the irony of its effect. Even against the fastest decks in the format Hymn is a good play. When a deck empties its hand fast, the window of opportunity for an Hymn is inversely proportional to its effect on the game. Landing an Hymn against a Burn deck is even more devastating than, say, ANT, and we all know how good Hymn is against ANT.

[PollePotDK]

Hi all,

This is the list I'm playing at the moment. Pretty standard taken fra Caleb's list, with minor changes.

The list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Genesis
2 Grave Titan

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
5 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

I used to play the GBW list, as I liked the Rector tutoring and Sun Titan. Those two can make some pretty sick moves, but found it to be rather slow and in rare occaissions being colorscrewed, since the list required double white, black and green (maybe it's the list :rolleyes:).

Anyway, I'm loving the GB version. The creatures to tutor for is perfect (loving the Eternal Witnesses, don't leave home without them). Used to play Garruk, Primal hunter or Garruk, Relentless, but OMG GSZ is sick, when you got the lands you need. It's the icing on the cake.

Basicly, there's anything you need to answer pretty much everything, though Storm-Combo is bad (hence the SB).

Can't figure out if Mindbreak Trap is good or bad? Anyone?

Thrun is the Boss. Stick him and you win. Seriously, that's my experience. A guy at my local store once said, that if he lost to Thrun, he would quit Magic. Don't know if he has :laugh: haven't played him though, but he's a Storm-Combo player, so maybe that's not happening.

I'm testing Massacre Wurm as a SB card. It's neat in an aggro match-up and have stuck it once against Maverick. It was sick that time, but don't know if it's too narrow and waste of a SB space?

I love playing the deck because of the synergies and generelly how the plays (cards) fit together.

Two weeks ago I played a 5 round tournament at the local store and met Sneak Attack in round 1 and lost 0-2. But won the 4 last rounds against Mono White Weenie Equipment, 2xBUG Control and UW Control and split the 1st place. The last 3 rounds were pretty close and won 2 of them 1-0-1. Thrun singlehandedly won me two of the games and GSZ turned up when I needed it most. Luck? I don't know, but I'm playing the same list tomorrow, so we'll see :cool:

[conboy31]

The new Sorin looks like a great compliment for us.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127139&d=1326258057

2WB

+1 1/1 lifelink vampire
-2 emblem, our creatures +1/+0
-6 destroy up to 3 other creatures or PW's, return under our control
starting loyalty = 3

[Arianrhod]

As per your reply in the DKA thread, I don't think that he's going to replace Relentless, since Relentless actively allows us to sacrifice our stuff for greater threat/value. However, I'm going to look at trying to squeeze him in as a 1-of, to provide an additional means of attack. It's worth noting that his ult will allow us to sac dragons and return them to the battlefield for free, which may not be particularly relevant, but I'm sure there'll be a time when it'll matter. He's very reminiscent of Elspeth KE, although I still like her as a 1-of as well in my list, due to her ability to make things fly over Moat.

TL;DR Potentially relevant to us, but I don't think he's as important as Relentless.

[conboy31]

I don't run Rector or Master of the Wild Hunt which makes Relentless feel pretty average in my list. I think that makes the transition to Sorin a lot easier. Similarly, I don't run moat so Elspeth's jump loses some utility.

[Qweerios]

Here are the results of a small local tournament with the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate

Artifact/Enchantment
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Damnation
1 Gaddock Teeg


I traded my Thrun away not so long ago and didn't have one availlable.

Round 1: U/R Delver 2-0

Game 1: Some good early Therapy/Explorer action stripping 2 Spell Snares into Terminate + 2 Witness beatdown (terminated 2 Delvers and a Grim).

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors.
Out: 1 Zealot, 1 Hermit, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse

Game 2: Blasts coupled with Percy take the game quite convincingly.

Round 2: Pox 0-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, I lay a T1 Top. My opponent opens up with 2 Dark Rituals, 2 Sinkholes, and 2 Smallpox in the next 4 turns. Top allows me a land drop every turn but my opponent keeps me contained. When I finally get two mana to GSZ for an Explorer on turn 6 (Toping for lands every turn), I get Poxed, leaving me with 2 lands and less than 10 life. Two Mishra's Factory beat me to death while I am holding 2 Pulse.

No sideboard changes since the matchup is heavily in my favor.

Game 2: I start with a T1 Top again. My opponent proceeds to stripping my hand with Inquisition of Kozilek and Hymn to Tourach while I land a Therapy/Explorer nailing 2 Smallpox. A Pox follows nuking us both to 3 lands and 10 hp. I Deed away a Mishra and play a Finks. My opponent lands a Nether Spirit followed by two Cursed Scrolls that eventually take me to zero life as I hold a Percy in hand with three lands in play.

Round 3: Reanimator 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll and open up with a Therapy on Exhume to which my opponent responds with an Entomb for Elesh Norn. Elesh Norn allows me to fetch 4 basics with 2 Explorers and cast 2 Pulse on Elesh Norn (the first one gets countered). Norn gets reanimated once more when I am holding a Finks and a Zealot. My opponent then reanimated a Gin Gitaxias and stomped me.

In: 1 Crypt, 2 Spellbomb, 2 Extractions, 3 REB, 3 Blasts, 2 Vapors.
Out: 4 Hymn, 3 Deed, 3 Pulse, 1 Hermit, 1 Finks, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with Therapy on Reanimate. My opponent Entombs an Iona on his T1 but I am holding a Pyroblast, a Crypt, and an Extraction. I extract his Iona on his T2 Exhume and Blast his FoW. I follow up with a Nihil Spellbomb, draw into another Extraction and GSZ for an Ooze... my opponent scoops.

Game 3: My opponent Entombs an Iona. I Therapy for a Reanimate but my opponent is holding an Exhume with 2 Fow, a Careful Study, and no lands. I lay an Explorer and Flashback Therapy, eating the 2 FoW, then I GSZ for Ooze. My opponent Exhumes his Iona, naming Black and dumps 2 Gitaxias with a Careful Study. I pump ooze to 5/5 eating away the Gins and my Explorer, puting me at 23 hp and proceed to race iona with a 5/5 Ooze and a fetched Dryad Arbor. I am holding Vapors, Percy, and Therapy when my opponent uses Echoing Truth on Ooze as I was about to finish him. Iona kills me the turn after as I draw a Pyroblast... FML

Round 4: U/R Delver again 1-2

Game 1: I lose the die roll, my opponent opens up Delver, I open with an Explorer that meets a Daze. Delver flips on a Brainstorm and my opponent lays a Goblin Guide beating me for 5 on T2. I GSZ an explorer on T2 while my opponent flies over. I attempt to Pulse the Delver but meet a FoW. The next turn I get hit by Delver again followed by a Chain Lightning and 2 Bolts, there goes 20 of my life points.

In: 3 REB, 3 Pyro, 2 Vapors
Out: 3 Deed, 3 Terminate (I know he sides out FoW for Spell Snare), 1 Hermit, 1 Zealot

Game 2: I open up with a Top, my opponent opens up Delver again. I Top on T2 while my opponent Ponders, his Delver didn't flip. I Hymn 2 lands away. Delver flips and Goblin Guide follows, I start taking damage. I GSZ an Explorer to stop Guide from swinging. I cast a Percy that my opponent taps with Ice and swings with Delver again. My life total is getting low but we are at a standstill with my Percy stopping Delver and my Explorers stopping Guide. I land a second Percy and take a PoP and a Bolt leaving me at 1 life, my opponent has 20 life. I Pulse Delver and lay another Explorer then swing for 12. My opponent draws a land, I play Witness, getting back Pulse then I pass the turn. My opponent draws another land and I swing for 12 again followed by a Pulse on both Percy.

Game 3: I get an Explorer on the field but don't manage to sac him. My opponent beats me down with 2 Delvers and a Clique while Dazing my removal. I finally manage to destroy a Delver with a REB but I take another 6 damage swing on T4 followed by a Bolt and a Fireblast.

Overall, a pretty dissapointing performance. I was prepared for all of these matchups but couldn't pull through. I could argue that my opponents had some pretty good hands but I don't think that would amount to anything constructive. What I take away from this event:

-Finks isn't good enough against U/R Delver. Any other GSZ target is as good if not better (Ooze and Witness for instance). Scryb Ranger would do a better job... I am seriously considering Sporecap Spider at this point. :(

-REB and Pyro are extremely effective and I wish I saw more than 1 per game.

-A second Phyrexian Tower may be a good call.

[conboy31]

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

[RJM]

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. Your matches highlight why I love white for STP. 1 mana to dodge snare and accommodate daze, can hit manlands, and makes Iona a roll of the dice. However, the blasts looked like they were amazingly strong. There looks to be a deficit of PW's. Maybe you can go -1 pulse, -1 hymn, for 2 bolts/liliana's.

In a similar vein, re: removal, in a straight GB version (my personal preference) I think Beast Within has a place in the 75 for those same reasons. It's instant speed Pulse #4-5 and dodges Spell Snare and crap like Iona. It's also an added answer for JTMS, which this deck can stuggle against. And for dodging Daze, I've found Dismember to be adequate.

Another SB option I've been testing is Tsunami over Choke. It's had a lot more synergy with Explorers flooding the board with basics that Choke for me. You don't have to force them to tap out to make it effective, especially if you've stripped their hand with Therapy/Hymn and it's a top deck war.

When they topdeck a Jace with untapped lands and a Choke in play, they probably win anyway. If you Tsunami them and they draw a Jace, it's a dead card, especially if you baited them into potentially getting 2 basic islands with your Explorer.

That and UW decks are packing more Disenchant and Krosan Grip outs for decks like Maverick that run similar SB cards too.

[1maarten1]

Nic Fit Top8ed the German 242 man "Win a Lotus" Legacy tournament. Lists are not out yet, hope they come soon.

Lists up yet? :smile:

[Philipp2293]

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=89330

[Greenpoe]

Qweerios, how has Viridian Zealot been? He seems too slow for my tastes. I would rather just run more Pulses/Deeds if you have serious issues with artifacts. If it's for Batterskull, I think Glissa is a more effective solution. Also, have you tried running 1 Grave Titan and 1 Fierce Empath? I cut the third Witness for 1 Fierce Empath, and he's been great, since both cards occupy a card-advantage slot, its just that one grabs from the library instead of graveyard. GSZ->Fierce Empath->Grave Titan is an entirely viable play. I like Grave Titan because whenever he hits the board, they concede within a turn.

I'm surprised you aren't running any extra Kitchen Finks in the SB. They're great vs. burn/Delver burn, Goblins, and Pox (surviving two sacrifice effects is good vs. Liliana especially). Surviving a Deed is a nice bonus, too.

I'm trying out a single Dosan the Falling Leaf and 2 extra Thruns instead of Choke or Tsunami in the SB.

PollePotDK, what's the Genesis for? Why not just play Eternal Witness for recursion, especially if you're going to be GSZ'ing for it? Also, why only 3 Hymn? With just two colors, it's easy to cast in GB and it's awesome in multiples. Why do you run Wall of Blossoms as a 1-of? The only time I can imagine GSZ'ing for it would be vs. Zoo, but in that case it's more of a SB card.

[conboy31]

You can find the Nic Fit list here:

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=89330

I used his GP Amsterdam list as a starting point once I gave up on the BG version. The changes I made could be meta dependent, but are: -1 SDT, -1 Elspeth, -1 Garruk, -1 horizon canopy, -1 master of the wild hunt. +2 maelstrom pulse, +1 glissa, +1 kitchen finks, +1 scav. ooze.
I have currently omitted non-liliana walkers from the deck, I feel like they are right on the fringe as the 59/60/61st cards. Also, it seems like Wild Hunt and Relentless go hand in hand for non-rector builds. I really enjoy the extra finks and ooze maindeck. Having two of each goes a long way against the delver decks and double ooze is relevant against any gy deck. In the Gb.w versions 2 or 3 tops and 21 or 22 lands is correct. Probably the 22nd land being utility (bojuka bog/canopy/urbog/wildwood/etc) if the 4 mana walkers are added.
Small edit-> I really want to be playing with 4 mana bombs like Elspeth/Relentless/etc, but I found that turn 3 crucial. It is more about catching up and equalizing. Then, allowing for witness, sun titan, rec nightmare, thrun, ooze + Xgreen to take over the game. Pulse and Finks are often the equalizing three drops.

[Qweerios]

@Greenpoe

Viridian Zealot is fine. He is pretty close to a Pridemage.

That German Nic Fit list looks like it was designed to beat a lot of Maverick...

[PollePotDK]

@Greenpoe: I'm trying out Genesis for recursion, but after playing last night (misable 1-3, won over Goblins, lost to RUG Tempo, Bant Aggro, High Tide) I'm taking it out, since I sideboarded it out all the time and never wanted to GSZ for it. Taking in a Bird instead to mana/colorfixing. The Wall is nice, I think, in the start with card draw, but maybe it should go out but don't know what to take in. Don't want to lower the creature count anymore than it is. Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for :wink:) the right manabase.

[conboy31]

Maybe Glissa. She's nice even if there's no aritfacts in the deck.


You may or may not run two SDT's :wink:

[PollePotDK]

Useful artifacts - it's not like it's Engineered Explosive :smile:

[conboy31]

I pointed that out as I too run 2 SDT's but Glissa has never brought one back to play. I'm sure at some point in time a SDT will get dazed and Glissa will run to save it for me. If I were to run a single artifact to supplement her it would probably be 1 executioners capsule for the combo or 1 Batterskull. Edit-> Cursed Scroll and the aforementioned EE are also on the radar.

[Greenpoe]

I'm running 3 Hymn because of space issues. Btw I have experienced some problemes with the mana/colorfixing in the early stages of the game. If I

meet wasteland decks, I'm allways going for basic lands (if I don't have Veteran in hand) and then it's a problem, because of double black and

double green. Got screwed alot last night because of that, where I was in a dominating position had I been able to get (got the balls to go for

:wink:) the right manabase.

I'm surprised the manabase has bothered you enough to not have the 4th Hymn. It's been fine for me, and we're running roughly the same manabase, just with a Dryad Arbor, which is good for when you need extra mana but don't want Explorer/don't have a sac outlet. Sometimes you can EOT fetch Dryad Abor off a fetch and sac it to Phyrexian Tower to that extra 1 mana. For reference, here's my current list. It might look a bit odd because there's so many 1-ofs, but they're all there for a reason and I'm more than happy to draw any of them. I don't run any creatures that seem too narrow in the MD, either. Anything I would side out more than half the time would be too narrow, but I generally keep most of the toolbox guys in. I haven't found space for Tops because, well, Tops are good in the late game, but I'm primarily worried about the early game. To avoid running of out gas, I made sure wanted to go with green creatures for NO that would give me card advantage.


// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ISD] Forest
5 [MI] Swamp
1 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [CS] Ohran Viper
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CMD] Hornet Queen
1 [M11] Gaea's Revenge
1 [M12] Grave Titan
1 [ARC] Fierce Empath

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [VI] Natural Order
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CS] Ohran Viper
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [CHK] Dosan the Falling Leaf
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [MPR] Damnation

[Tao]

On CFB again: Caleb with his SCG list (almost the same) vs. Counterthopter

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-calebd-explorer-rock-vs-uw-counterbalance/


I have been testing Trinket Mages and they have been very good. Pithing Needle (Mother of Runes, Jace TMS, Elspeth), Sensei Top, Nihil Spellbomb and Engineered Explosives are all very good maindeck cards. This also allows to improve Primeval Titan, now he can be fetching Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins.

[Philipp2293]

I guess in such a build you really want to run Glissa too, no?

[Tao]

No Glissa for me. It is bad when the opponent can use spot removal and get a one for one out of the deal. Often the opponent will have bad Swords or Bolts or Dismembers rotting in his hand anyway. Swords to Plowshares on Veteran Explorer should stay the only way this can happen and you can play around that by sacrificing it to Cabal Therapy immediately after playing it.

[Tao]

After a bit early testing here is my current list.

I replaced Deeds with Damnations because most of the times Deeds were just expensive Damnations that die to Stifle, Qasali Pridemage or Pithing Needle. For other problematic stuff like Artifacts or Manlands there is still Pithing Needle, Maelstrom Pulse and Wickerbough Elder which is plenty.
With Damnations I switched the main kill from creatures to Planeswalkers which works out quite well. Liliana, Jace and Garruk are a good team. I'd like to add a Karn or two to the SB for control matchups but there is no room.
Primeval Titan was an awesome idea! It takes just one slot and takes over the late game via GSZ. Getting Ruins and Stronghold wins attition wars, espeically with Nihil Spellbomb in the maindeck to fight opposing recursion. If they Waste Stronghold just get it back with Witness and put back Witness on top.
Trinket Mage has been awesome. Between Needle, Nihil Spellbomb and Engineered Explosives there is almost always something useful and if not it just gets a Top.
Brainstorm is great with so many cards that do different stuff and one of the maion reasons to go blue. In combination with Trinket Mage it added a lot of consistency to the deck.
The deck is designed to be at least equal against Merfolk, Maverick, Stoneblade, Reanimator and Delver. Thus the SB focusses mainly on these decks, too. G1 against Reanimator is almost unwinnable, but G2 and G3 are possible with 4 Thoughtseizes and 4 addional Yard hate cards. Against Delver the addional quick removal spells help a lot, against Maverick and Merfolk you get a third Damnation. Against Stoneblade get Thrun, Ooze, the second Spellbomb and any number of Thoughtseizes or Shriekmaw (for Clique) depending on what much you want to side out against their list. Storm Combo is a horrible matchup, fixing it would take too many slots.

// Lands
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
2 [SHM] Island

4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Bayou

1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

2 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've been following this deck for a little while now, and am really loving the concept of it. It's been a while since I've been actively testing though, and the sheer amount of options and configurations possible in this archetype is a little overwhelming. Would y'all recommend testing a straight Green/Black version as a starting point?

Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks Profane Command is strong enough to try as a one-of. I'm willing to freely admit it's a little bit of a janky card, but in a deck that goes for inevitability I think it has potential. I mean, it's a potential win-con or win-assist in three separate ways (recur a beater, burn them, or go for the alpha strike) plus it's mediocre targeted removal on top of that. Not being tutor-able hurts it a little bit too, but even for :b::b::1: you can recur an Explorer and kill a Bob (or, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you could also recur and kill the same Explorer with PCommand for BB1 since you control the order in which the effects resolve?)... which isn't too shabby... Also it's a good friend of Eternal Witness. It's just always seemed like a potential sleeper card to me, and if any Legacy deck can use it profitably, I'd assume this would be it. But feel free to shoot it down (constructively :wink:), this is coming from someone who hasn't gotten around to testing yet.

EDIT: Also, I can't help but be a little incredulous at some of the seven-mana bombs in these lists. I realize in Rector lists, you're usually trying to cheat Knell into play, but does stuff like Hornet Queen really work? I want to run it, but this is Legacy and I is scared. Lol.

[Greenpoe]

Hornet Queen is only good as 1-of to GSZ/NO for, but it's really effective at what it does: stopping some huge 3-4 creatures that might go lethal on you. Naturally drawn, it's not too hard to cast. Between GSZ for Dryad Arbor or Veteran Explorer, Phyrexian Tower and Tops, 6 mana is easy to hit. 7 is a bit tougher, but still managable. That said, 4 mana bombs are still important for the early game, with a few higher CC ones at 5-6 or even 7 depending on your list. You just have to learn when the best time to sac Explorer to Therapy is, when to GSZ for Explorer or just grab Dryad Arbor, etc. Personally, I still like the straight GB build with Hymn and Persecutor because you've got to have a quick clock to have a chance vs. burn and combo, and lots of people are playing UR Delver and UGR Delver these days.

The problem is that black creatures at 4, 5, and 6 are much better than green ones. Abyssal Persecutor>Thrun (Thrun will never win with an enemy Goyf on the board, for example). Bloodgift Demon>Deranged Hermit (Once they StP/Bolt the Hermit, you've just got a bunch of 1/1's, which is pretty underwhelming, since you just spent 5 mana+5 echo on it). Gravetitan>Primeval Titan. Gravetitan just makes people concede- the three immediate blockers helps immensely when you're at a low life total and swings the game in your favor. The problem with all the black creatures is obviously that you can't GSZ for them.

[Arianrhod]

Duke: Welcome to crazyland. The first thing that needs to go is the idea that there are any bad cards! If you think there's potential to be had in Profane Command, try it out! This archetype actively encourages cards that nobody else in legacy would even dream of casting. That's one of the coolest things about it.

As far as Hornet Queen goes, I've played against a version that was running it. I just shot it with Master and then cracked Deed for 0 to wipe out the tokens. I'll grant that it pretty much requires a sweeper, but I think that a better 7-drop would be Gaea's Revenge. I've actually cut Knell from my Rector version, also -- the meta just isn't right for it. In a less stoneblade-y and more aggro defined meta, it can rip games wide open...but now isn't that time anymore, sadly.

As for a starting point; it depends on what you want to do/what you enjoy in decks in general. Pretty much, there's a version of this deck for that. So far, the major archetypes and colors, I believe, are as follows:

G/B (CalebD's version)
G/B Birthing Pod (some splash W)
G/B Abyssal Persecutor (Qweerios build a few pages back)
G/B/r (Qweerios new build with REBs/Pyros)
G/B/W Rector build (my version)
G/B/U Trinket Mage build (Tao's latest)
G/B/U Gifts Ungiven build (haven't heard anything on these for a while)

If I missed any, apologies. As you can tell from each version's namesake, they all do different things...in some cases, wildly so. It really just comes down to what you want to do, honestly. Caleb's G/B version is arguably the most successful, due to his patronage, but it's also one of the more boring lists -- it's largely just a rock deck that uses the nic fit engine to power it up, whereas some of the other builds try to actually harness that power a bit more. In a way, that would make it a good way to get your feet wet -- but at the same time, recognize that it won't reveal the true power of the engine to you. I think that the best lists of any of these versions will be somewhere in between, which is a lesson that I'm only now realizing personally. The danger of cute things is enormous with this archetype, and the decks actually have to be able to win games, too, apparently.

Tao --

No Phyrexian Tower makes me cringe, since that enables a turn 2 Jace or Garruk -- either of which is batshit devastating. Also, how's Liliana been in this version? It seems that you would want to keep more cards in your hand, so her +1 hurts you a lot more (Brainstorm). Speaking of which, Brainstorm is just amazing in this archetype, for sure. If you could find room for it, I'd recommend adding a Consecrated Sphinx. It was in the BUG version I was testing with, and I'm of the opinion that it's perhaps the best non-dragon 6-drop for this archetype, in any color. By the time it comes down, your opponents should be out of removal, and at that point, the Sphinx just buries them. Oh, what's that, you want to brainstorm? Okay, I'll draw 6.

I don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to cut Deed personally, although some of that is due to the synergy with Sun Titan, which just breaks games in half. For a non-white list, it may very well be that Deed isn't actually good enough in the meta anymore. It wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last, either. I don't really like how stripped down your GSZ package is -- I feel that with Jace and Brainstorm, in particular, you'd want to enhance your package rather than shrink it, since GSZ provides another shuffle. Although, I'll grant that with the full 8 fetches, Trinket, and Vet, it probably shouldn't be a problem. I'd imagine that you're missing the MD Ooze and Finks, at least...

...Which brings me to the next question: why did you cut Recurring Nightmare? Nightmare is one of the strongest things this archetype can do, and you're certainly more capable of finding it than many of the other non-rector versions, with brainstorm and Jace. You don't have that many creatures, I'll grant, but I think that it's probably worth it just to loop Eternal Witness. You have Volrath's, but I feel that Volrath's is just an incredibly slow, nerfed version of Nightmare, which also costs you a draw step. I don't have a problem with it being in the deck as backup, but I think you want Nightmare, too.

I don't mean this to come across the wrong way, but I'm going to say it anyway:

It appears to me as if what you're trying to do here is build a BUG Jacestill deck that happens to use the nic fit engine to speed it up, at the cost of control. My thoughts, then, are such:

That's an interesting idea, honestly. It may be that there is some kind of superfriends list that can use these engines to make it actually fast enough. it's worth exploring at the least. But if you do this, I think you cut GSZ, you cut most of the other creatures in general, and probably just rawdog the Vets with a few E.Wits or other minor utility creatures. Don't try to shove in all of the generally accepted Nic Fit core.

Alternatively, you could also focus on the other interesting thing about your list: Trinket Mage. Rather than all-inning on planeswalkers, explore what Trinket Mage is capable of in a Nic Fit shell. The first thing that comes to my mind would be something like Chimeric Mass -- an artifact that T.M. can get, that isn't actually a 1-drop. Granted it probably isn't a good example because it dies to everything, but I hope you get my point. Trinket can do all kind of silly things beyond the traditional 4 that you have listed (Top, graveyard hate of some kind, EE, and Needle). Could there be a version that actually runs stiflenought? I kind of doubt it, but off of a double Therapy they wouldn't have removal for it unless they topdecked. Food for thought.

But yeah -- at the end of the day, it's a really interesting list...but I feel that you're going in two different directions with it, and that each direction is suffering from the split, rather than being benefited by it.

[waSP]

Here is a Gifts version.

// Mana base
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath

// Zenith Targets
3 Eternal Witness
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wall of Blossoms

// Utility
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Regrowth

// Gamebreakers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn, Liberated
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sun Titan

// Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maze of Ith


// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Moment's Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Tower of the Magistrate

My only major problems with it have come when I haven't drawn black in game 2 and 3. I've gone 4-0, 3-1, 4-0. 4-0, and 3-2 with the build so far. This build is probably one of the weakest to very aggressive aggro, but there's always trying to win with playskill! This is not the build to play in a highly aggro environment, though. That would probably be straight B/G with lots of Finks.

I'm thinking 2 of the Thoughtseizes should be Liliana of the Veil but I haven't had a chance to pick any of those up yet.


Has anyone played with Ohran Viper as a potential GSZ target? It is dual purpose and I've been meaning to try it but I don't want to cut any of the two/three drops.

[Richard Cheese]

Just for comparison's sake, here's the GBW version I've been toying with:



4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dungrove Elder
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Path to Exile
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Windswept Heath
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Duress
1 Eternal Witness
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Karakas


I don't run any high cmc bombs, haven't really felt like I needed them so far. Does feel like it lacks some late-game card advantage though, so I may add a singleton Skeletal Scrying like CalebD.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Richard Cheese, not to be a hater, but that list has such a normal looking curve that it seems like it's not getting much mileage out of Veteran Explorer... Don't you at least want a Sun Titan to compliment the three Deeds? Or a planeswalker or two?

Singleton Cursed Scroll strikes me as a little out of place, since there's no way to search for it. Also, how has Dungrove Elder been so far?

[johnbags401]

Hey guys, this is my first post here. I've been playing this deck since Caleb first posted about it on Channel Fireball. It has been pretty fun, but I can't seem to beat UW Stoneforge. What do you guys normally do to close that game out? It is always pretty close, but they will usually get a Jace/Elspeth or just attrition with swords/snapcaster till I am run out of gas. It is the most frustrating match I have ever played.

Here is the deck I am currently running. Again, it is very similar to Caleb's list.


//Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
//Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan
//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skeletal Scrying

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Damnation


The sideboard needs work and will be changing with some more playtesting.

Thanks so much for any help.

[Galrael]

Hey so first time posting in this thread, been a fan of this deck for a while and just managed to build for the last Jupiter NELC. I am also the Andrew that played you Arianrhod just so you know. I liked your tourney report and once again i respect the win you got over me, def a blowout.

So the real reason I am posting is in regards to another card I have my eye on from DKA besides the new Sorin which is Vorapede!!! A 5/4 Vigilance trampler that can come back from non swords removal or be sacced to cabal therapy to make him bigger!!! And he can be tutored with GSZ. I like all of these things just wondering what you all think.

[Tao]

Ok, that thing is very very very good. Pretty much an auto-include as far as I can tell with good chances of being more than a 1-off.

[Qweerios]

@Tao,

I love the idea of splashing blue for Jace/Brainstorm but I am not convinced on Trinket Mage, especially at the expense of Hymn. Replacing Deed with Damnation isn't a good idea because you have less opportunities to break the synergy of the sweeper effect. Although, with a Trinket package, Damnation is definitely better. I strongly advise a Chimeric Mass as well if you intend to keep Trinket/Damnation.

IMO, the issue with using Mage is that you lose a lot of value out of your GSZ. I see a lot more manipulation in your list but a lot less answers, I would consider making a choice between GSZ and Trinket, playing GSZ, Top, Trinket, Jace, and Brainstorm seems over the top to me. Also, if you play 1 CMC discard in your SB, play Duress over Thoughtseize since you probably won't side targeted discard against aggro and losing life = 1 free storm count, 1 free shock, etc...

@Greenpoe,

The beauty of Hermit is that you don't care if he gets removed. When you play 1 card and your opponent spends removal on it and it leaves you with 4 tokens, it doesn't matter if they are 1/1 or 2/2, its a winning play, it punches through jace, and laughs at KotR for 4 turns. I have also found the echo ability to be a blessing when holding Witness/GSZ, or with Volrath's Stronghold, you can forfeit your draw step to generate 4 tokens a turn at 7 mana (usually the turn after you GSZ for Hermit).

@Arianrhod,

Here is why very few people sport Recurring Nightmare, it is:

a) too demanding
b) too slow, therefore;
c) easy to disrupt
d) underwhelming

It requires 3 cards in different zones and specific high-cost combo enablers that cramp up deck space. It takes a lot of time and mana to set up and pull off successfully. Your opponent can pick it appart with GY hate, targeted discard, land destruction, or any fast/aggressive strategy. Nightmare itself is worthless without key creatures, and pulling the combo off doesn't grant you an immediate win despite its cost, unlike many less-than-three cards combos with a lower casting cost. It falls within the "win more" or "too cute" zone because a single Garruk Hunter, or Jace, or Titan will give you that desired grip on the board that will grant you the win.

Note that I am not saying your deck is all of the above, the different Recurring Nightmare interactions are.

[Richard Cheese]

Richard Cheese, not to be a hater, but that list has such a normal looking curve that it seems like it's not getting much mileage out of Veteran Explorer... Don't you at least want a Sun Titan to compliment the three Deeds? Or a planeswalker or two?

Singleton Cursed Scroll strikes me as a little out of place, since there's no way to search for it. Also, how has Dungrove Elder been so far?

Scroll has been really good, and singletons really aren't that hard to find in this deck with all the shuffle effects and top, and Explorer digging out most of your lands.

I have thought about including a Sun Titan, but I've been finding that between Stronghold, Top, and Scroll, I'm going through a lot of mana every turn. Might throw one in in place of the second Pridemage or something anyway.

Elder has been really good. He's usually huge, makes late-game Explorers even more dangerous, and hexproof in Snapcaster/StP meta feels pretty good.

[Tao]

Thanks for the detailed constructive answers, they were insightful. I adapted the deck a bit and will do more testing and brewing with these in mind. So far the list still performs very well.

I somehow read Vorapede wrong or my spoiler was wrong. I thought it had Haste which would have been nuts, but it only has Vigilance so it isn't even half as good as I thought. So I think Deranged Hermit is still better because of Swords to Plowshares.

[Arianrhod]

Here's what I'm looking at, at the moment. This is definitely subject to change -- I have a local legacy event on Saturday that I'm aiming to take down, but at the same time I'm definitely experimenting a lot more with my list. I'll warn you now that I'm trying some pretty questionable things -- mostly because they're questions that I've wanted answers to for a while now, and I feel that now is as good of a time to try them as any.

The list:

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Sun Titan

1x Faith's Fetters
1x Moat
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena

1x Skeletal Scrying
2x Swords to Plowshares

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Garruk Relentless

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Green Sun's Zenith

3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Tribute to Hunger
2x Innocent Blood
2x Memoricide


A few points.

1. I'm not going to argue Hymn or no Hymn. There are many, many strong arguments as to why one should run this card, and I know that I'm talking heresy by experimenting with dropping it. I'm coming to view this deck, somewhat counter-intuitively, perhaps, as more of a reactive deck than a proactive one. Hymn is a proactive card that actively seeks to strip your opponents' threats before they have a chance to do anything. Instead, I'd prefer to have them waste their mana to drop a threat, and then remove it...odds are, they have a lot less mana than I do, so I will be better able to take advantage of this tempo gain. I'll reemphasize here that this is an experiment. It's not like I don't still have my 4x wolf Hymn to Tourachs sitting comfortably in my binder, ready to go whenever. If I don't like the deck without Hymn, I'll just put them back. But I feel that it's worth at least trying -- I don't recognize Hymn as one of the core cards that define the deck. That belongs only to Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. Everything else is flexible.

2. No Tops. If I wasn't a heretic already, I am now. I'm testing out actual card draw instead of just selection, in the form of Arena and Scrying. I know Caleb and others have been raving about Scrying for months, but I haven't actually been able to get my hands on one to test with until now. Arena is something that I've wanted to try out for a long, long time, but I haven't been able to find the room to do so. Switching out Tops gives me two spots for actual draw. Maybe it's just my luck, but I haven't been able to find the Tops. I recognize that I'm not exactly fixing that with Scrying; but at least Arena I can tutor for. I've been considering going to three Tops, but then I know damn well that suddenly I'll find two per game, at least. My version also runs a couple fewer shuffles than most, since I'm only running 3 Zenith and 6 fetch. The ability to find Top is one of the reasons that I am intrigued by Trinket Mage -- it's definitely a powerful card, but, again, I want to test out some different options.

3. Xantid in the board. This seems like it could have promise, and could really annoy the blue-based control decks...especially off of a GSZ. I like the idea of turning GSZ into hate, but I've never really liked Teeg for that role, since he turns off a fair amount of my deck, including the ability to Zenith for other things.

4. Tribute to Hunger seems interesting. Qweerios has been having success with his Consuming Vapors, but I think I'd like the instant version better -- it's a solid answer to a lot of problems, not the least of which being a cheated-in and hasty Emrakul (Sneak Attack...also a Gamekeeper deck that someone plays locally).

5. I'm giving Thrun another chance. I've tried him before and hated him every time, but maybe the meta is more appropriate for him now. I recognize that he's a beast...he's just always underperformed for me for some reason. I think it's time he had another shot.

6. I'm considering taking out one of my 6's. I'm not sure which one, though, as each serves a very specific purpose. At the same time, I feel that taking out the Knell might have lowered my curve sufficiently that I can afford to keep all three. I'm probably not going to make this change until DKA anyway, as the slot I'd be opening would probably be for a 1-of Sorin. I'm really uneasy about this, though.

As always, constructive criticism is welcome. I'm determined to play this event without Hymn and without Top, though, so don't bother with those arguments. I'm definitely not saying that I'm in the right, but I feel that I have to try it without them to actually evaluate how good they truly are. Hope that makes sense.

[TraxDaMax]

I had been testing Life // Death in a build of mine, and it would often be "neat" but not game defining. Then I realized that it's a house once you get it to team up with Garruk Wildspeaker.
So easy to set up and practicly a turn 4-5 kill.
The card offers diversity too, with its reanimate spell you can get some usefull creatures back, or can finish the game with Life and a lot of lands and/or Garruk Wildspeaker ultimatum.

The deck would obviously look a little different, but it's something I'm going to test some more to find out how good it actually is.

Right now I am playing a simular deck to that of Tao, with Blue splash for Jace, a trygon predator and a coiling oracle. And sideboard 4 stifle.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think Kodama of the North Tree is better than Vorapede if you really want a big hard to remove beater for five mana. Having said that, I notice everyone runs Hermit over Kodama anyways at the 5 cmc. Vorapede also just seems a little too vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, imo.

Anyway, Thrun does about the same job as both these guys, for less overall mana to hardcast or GSZ for. Although I personally think there are arguments for Kodama in this deck.

[PollePotDK]

I have to agreed with DukeDemonKn1ght. What we want at 5cc is a beater with shroud. I'm having trouble figurering out what to go for. Kodama of the North Tree and Vorapede both looks nice and it has to be tested.

Btw, has anyone seen the new Ooze? Predator Ooze looks VERY nice. Can enter at turn 2 and keeps growing and growing and growing and.... Indestructible is nice and Swords to Plowshares looks like the only card (almost) to stop it. What do you guys think?

Also the new artifact could be a littel bump in the road for this deck, but only a little :tongue: I know I'm getting some to my SB. Wicked card at 1cc.

[Koby]

Indestructible is nice in Standard; but eats Swords to Plowshares in Legacy. It's casual players' wet-dream.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Indestructible is nice in Standard; but eats Swords to Plowshares in Legacy. It's casual players' wet-dream.

Ditto with Vorapede. It's decent, but it's not really Legacy caliber. Kodama outclasses it as a hard-to-deal-with beater for its casting cost, and Deranged Hermit outclasses both of them in most metas as a green five drop for this particular deck. This is because Hermit provides either offense or defense, depending on the circumstance, and just plain puts more points of power on the board. Shit like undying is only really relevant when the most common removal in the format doesn't read "remove target creature from the game". Kodama is Swords-proof, and Hermit still leaves you with four creatures if he eats removal.

[johnbags401]

I really like Kodama of the North Tree in this deck. It is not just shroud, but trample also. Really nice when a they cannot chump it very effectively. Also, most decks don't run very many threats, so if they are going to block it, they will usually have to trade for it.

I don't think it is a replacement for Hermit Druid, but they fill different roles. If you have a Druid out, it makes your Deed kind of awkward. Also, with STP and Snapcasters running around, I have found that they have swords for the Druid more times than not.

Also, Kodama trumps Elspeth. The trample pretty much guarantees damage gets onto Elspeth vs Thrun.

[Koby]

I was playing a quick game last nite against UW Stoneblade with the :g::b:/:w: version running Sun Titan and I had some seriously problems dealing with Jace TMS. What tools do you guys use to deal with an on-board Jace with a stale board (it's hard to keep creatures on the field vs Snap-STP shenanigans).

I like the Kodama approach BTW, I was looking for a 5-drop so have some sort of "gang-buster" ability. I'll roll that into my deck.

[novatinhu]

I was playing a quick game last nite against UW Stoneblade with the :g::b:/:w: version running Sun Titan and I had some seriously problems dealing with Jace TMS. What tools do you guys use to deal with an on-board Jace with a stale board (it's hard to keep creatures on the field vs Snap-STP shenanigans).

I like the Kodama approach BTW, I was looking for a 5-drop so have some sort of "gang-buster" ability. I'll roll that into my deck.


MD i have 3 pulse and 2 Beast within against Jace, and dont have problems, i play with BG Caleb's list with some modifications.

Cya

[Arianrhod]

@Rukcus -- if you're running the Rector version, there's usually an O-Ring or a Faith's Fetters somewhere, alongside Pulses. Aside from that -- the best answer to a Jace is to name it with a Therapy and hope they don't topdeck another one. There are answers, but it's definitely a weak spot. If they can resolve and protect a Jace, you're usually in trouble. That's one of the nicer things about the blue and red splashes: they can legend-rule, or REB/pyro, respectively.

Kodama seems a little weak to me, but by all means try it out. If Kodama was 5 on the rear, I'd feel better about it; as is, I feel it's just going to die to Thrun/Goyf a lot.

[Greenpoe]

Panglacial Wurm could be good in the Persecutor build. Crack a fetch, use GSZ, sac an Explorer and get a 9/5 for 7 while you're at it? Pretty sweet source of free CA.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Panglacial Wurm could be good in the Persecutor build. Crack a fetch, use GSZ, sac an Explorer and get a 9/5 for 7 while you're at it? Pretty sweet source of free CA.

Seems like a lot of mana for what you get out of the deal. Hornet Queen or Gaea's Revenge seem better for 7-drops.

[John Cox]

I'm just looking at this deck for the first time and I'm wondering if protean is hulk worth running? He seems like you could do some crazy stuff with him. I can sacrificing him to a tower and getting finks and witness and then using witness to get him back, then going for witness and something else. You could get your whole deck out that way. He seems sweet.

[conboy31]

Assuming that grafdigger gets played in sideboards and occasionally main board via tutor packages (trinket mage, etutor), how to we move forward?

For example, here is a sample of cards that get hit from my list.
4 cabal therapy (flashback)
4 green sun zenith
x fetches for arbor
2 kitchen finks
1 recurring nightmare
2 sun titan

I feel like a strong list can be constructed that drops sun titan for planeswalkers or grave titan (etc), and recurring nightmare's advantage can be gained somewhere else. The lifegain of finks might be strong enough to leave alone, or be aware of cards like loxodon hierarch, spike feeder, grazing gladehart. Fetching up an arbor with a fetchland is not too huge, but protecting liliana and getting a body for nightmare is relevant. And that is where the good news ends. Not being able to flash back cabal therapy and losing GSZ is just a flat beating. Those two cards gain us the advantages and consistency to win games.

[Koby]

I've been testing a list with 2 Garruk Relentless and 2 Liliana, and have been really enjoying their synergy. It's a shame that Cage will punish this deck's tricks in the white splash version, but that may open the door to the Gifts package again.

[Arianrhod]

I'm not actually worried about Grafdigger yet. I'm taking a bit more of a wait and see approach. For the Flashback on Therapy being hit to really matter, he'd have to land a t1 or t2 Grafdigger...which isn't going to happen with the maindeck versions, and isn't guaranteed with the 3-4 in the sb people. Even if Grafdiggers hits, don't forget that it's a 1-drop artifact, which puts it squarely in the sights of Pernicious Deed, Qasali, and Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not saying that it won't be annoying, but I hardly think it's going to invalidate an entire swath of our deck. In a way, I'm actually happy if people start running Grafdigger's over some other forms of graveyard hate -- that means less hate that actually stop Rector from doing things.

[conboy31]

I too am taking the 'wait and see' approach, just mulling over some divergent strategies to sidestep or mitigate Grafdigger's relevance.

I can see options moving towards Rectors, no titans, increased planeswalkers and innocent bloods. Or, gifts based like Tao's latest trend.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm just looking at this deck for the first time and I'm wondering if protean is hulk worth running? He seems like you could do some crazy stuff with him. I can sacrificing him to a tower and getting finks and witness and then using witness to get him back, then going for witness and something else. You could get your whole deck out that way. He seems sweet.

Check out the ZeRo thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21478-Deck-Zenith-Rebirth-Order-(ZeRo)-%97-Flashless-Hulk-Combo). If you're going to run Hulk, you might as well combo off with him. Also that deck is actually pretty underrated right now IMO.

Had a crazy idea and threw SFM into my list for Batterskull and Jitte, and it's actually really strong in initial testing. I have no problem hardcasting Batterskull if SFM doesn't stick around, and with Maverick so popular, having Jitte and Cursed Scroll on top of Deed makes it really easy to control their board. Both equips also significantly improve the burn/UR Delver matchup. Also lets me run a meta sword in the board, probably Feast/Famine or Light/Shadow to swing past germ tokens into Jace.

I'm also going to harp on how good hexproof guys are right now. No StP, no Tower of the Magistrate, no Maze of Ith.

[Arianrhod]

Richard Cheese: can you say TreeBlade? /trollface

I'd caution people looking into Hulk-based options (including the ZeRO thread). While they may be good now, they will only continue to be so for the next week. While it's not necessarily a huge deal for a lot of decks, including this one, Grafdigger's WILL annihilate ZeRO unless they do some major adaptation. I think it's safe to say that Grafdigger's will be -huge- in the meta for a month or two, while everyone tries it out and sees just how good it actually is. Once the furor over it dies down, then I think it will be safe to evaluate Hulk and all of its degenerate offspring.

I find myself wondering if the meta has changed so substantially since the deck was originated over the summer. A few of us tried out SFM back then, and it was just awful. Kind of interesting that it seems better now.

Trollface aside, hexproof is a very strong keyword in general, especially since the meta as a whole has an enormous hard-on for spot removal at the moment. At the same time, Thrun is the only hexproofer that exists currently (pending the rest of DKA) that I would run. Dungrove is a house, but I worry about his 3-cmc, which is often right in the firing range of Deed. I also think that he might revolve a bit too much around being forest-heavy -- you want to be straight g/b or with a very, very slight splash to best take advantage of him, but that removes a lot of options and a lot of power from the various splash colors.

One final note on Grafdigger's -- once it hits, I think I am going to remove Sun Titan from my list, probably in favor of a third Eternal Witness. I'm going to leave Nightmare, though -- it's just too good game one, and I board it out half the time in anticipation of them hating it anyway. I'm most curious at this point as to the applications of Grafdigger's...as in, what is the threshold at which point people will board it in. Because honestly, if they're only boarding it in because of GSZ, IMO that's just a dead card in their deck. I don't think that I would even board it in against a nic fit deck, unless it was a variant that was especially dependent on the graveyard. More of interest is the E.T/Trinket control decks that will probably spring up (which I'm going to definitely be working on, since Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards ever). A maindeck Cage in one of those decks could prove obnoxious, because then it would just be an effective and easily-grabbed hate card, as opposed to the idiots who will board in 4x Cage and then stare stupidly at us while we just pummel their faces in.

[routlaw]

I've played enough blue/white and enough RUG to know that Cage is not what you want to be doing vs. Nic Fit. Both decks are clearly the beatdown decks in this matchup, and Cage doesn't effectively stop the cards you really care about (the removal and discard) to dedicate boarding in as opposed to inserting higher threat density or really good reactive cards like Spell Pierce.

I wouldn't worry about it vs. this deck, but don't get me wrong it will be played-heavily-in blue decks looking for Leyline-grade hate without the Leyline "problem" of mulliganing into it.

[Richard Cheese]

Richard Cheese: can you say TreeBlade? /trollface

I'd caution people looking into Hulk-based options (including the ZeRO thread). While they may be good now, they will only continue to be so for the next week. While it's not necessarily a huge deal for a lot of decks, including this one, Grafdigger's WILL annihilate ZeRO unless they do some major adaptation. I think it's safe to say that Grafdigger's will be -huge- in the meta for a month or two, while everyone tries it out and sees just how good it actually is. Once the furor over it dies down, then I think it will be safe to evaluate Hulk and all of its degenerate offspring.

I find myself wondering if the meta has changed so substantially since the deck was originated over the summer. A few of us tried out SFM back then, and it was just awful. Kind of interesting that it seems better now.

Trollface aside, hexproof is a very strong keyword in general, especially since the meta as a whole has an enormous hard-on for spot removal at the moment. At the same time, Thrun is the only hexproofer that exists currently (pending the rest of DKA) that I would run. Dungrove is a house, but I worry about his 3-cmc, which is often right in the firing range of Deed. I also think that he might revolve a bit too much around being forest-heavy -- you want to be straight g/b or with a very, very slight splash to best take advantage of him, but that removes a lot of options and a lot of power from the various splash colors.

One final note on Grafdigger's -- once it hits, I think I am going to remove Sun Titan from my list, probably in favor of a third Eternal Witness. I'm going to leave Nightmare, though -- it's just too good game one, and I board it out half the time in anticipation of them hating it anyway. I'm most curious at this point as to the applications of Grafdigger's...as in, what is the threshold at which point people will board it in. Because honestly, if they're only boarding it in because of GSZ, IMO that's just a dead card in their deck. I don't think that I would even board it in against a nic fit deck, unless it was a variant that was especially dependent on the graveyard. More of interest is the E.T/Trinket control decks that will probably spring up (which I'm going to definitely be working on, since Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards ever). A maindeck Cage in one of those decks could prove obnoxious, because then it would just be an effective and easily-grabbed hate card, as opposed to the idiots who will board in 4x Cage and then stare stupidly at us while we just pummel their faces in.

ZeRo definitely takes a hit from Cage, but like you said, it's going to come down to how much play that particular card sees, and as long as ZeRo remains somewhat under the radar, I don't think it will be that much of an issue. Just a suggestion for John Cox, as I think that's currently the best deck built around Hulk shenanigans.

I guess my general approach to the deck has been a bit different. Maybe I have unlucky draws or something, but early on I had way too many games where I opened with an Explorer but no sac outlet, or vice versa, or neither, so I really don't want to build a deck that absolutely depends on getting large amounts of lands into play. I want to be able to take advantage of that scenario, but not be totally dependent on it. I like reusable effects like Scroll, Stronghold, Top, and Batterskull a lot more than big angry bombs that I can't protect and will most likely just get sent plowing.

Yes, Dungrove does sometimes conflict with Deed, but so far at least, it hasn't been a big issue. Deed isn't the only removal I run, and Dungrove isn't my only threat. That said, I've also got Stronghold, Witness, and Sun Titan to get him back if I happen to bin them both and reeeeaaaaly need one for some reason. The forest thing hasn't been an issue, as I've purposely tried to avoid stressing my manabase much, right now Sun Titan is my only non-green double-costed spell, and I'm considering dropping that as well.

As for SFM, I really haven't done tons of testing with it, most of it against GWr Maverick, but so far I haven't dropped a game. Maverick seems pretty weak to artifact-based removal and sweepers - deal with Mom, and the rest is easy. UW Stoneforge likewise doesn't pack many answers to artifacts, and having Pridemage + recursion seems like it could tip the scales in our favor. Definitely a matchup I need to test more though.

There are still a couple flex slots I'm working on, once I've had more time to test and work through a few variations, I'll post my latest list. Or I can just shut up and go back to my Treefolk thread.

[Gheizen64]

Has scarscale ritual ever been considered in the deck? It kill veteran and give card advantage, it can give wickerbough another activation and can combine with some new Undying creature for more undying activations. I'd probably test it as a 2-of in the deck.

[Koby]

Perilous Research also achieves this effect, but as an instant. Granted, it's in blue...

For the cost of destroying our own creatures, I'd rather play with Diabolic Intent to get the card I want. Both of these still get nailed by Spell Snare.

[Greenpoe]

Has scarscale ritual ever been considered in the deck? It kill veteran and give card advantage, it can give wickerbough another activation and can combine with some new Undying creature for more undying activations. I'd probably test it as a 2-of in the deck.

Unless you really capitalize on the -1/-1 counter, I wouldn't play it- i.e., compare to Sign in Blood which sees no play.

[Tao]

For the Jace problem something that actually can work is Pithing Needle. You side out Deeds anyway, so going

+ 3 Pithing Needle
- 3 Pernicious Deed

is a very good plan. They rarely have Disenchant effects anymore and it targets Equipments as well as problem lands like Karakas or Riptide Lab that can potentially be excruciatingly hard to deal with otherwise.

[bowvamp]

I see at least one way to capitalize on that counter... Veteran Explorer. Plus the 1U/B mana cost is easier than BB in sign's case, or 1B in whisper's case.

[John Cox]

Yeah the -1/-1 is good on wickerbough elder too.

[Arianrhod]

Scarscale is cute, I think that if you're running it, you should be running Diabolic Intent instead. Why draw two random cards when you can instead draw the exact card you want.

[Qweerios]

@Gheizen

Common missconception: Adding a -1/-1 counter to a permanent doesn't remove a +1/+1 counter. Just like adding a +1/+1 counter on a creature with a -1/-1 Persist counter, it doesn't make it Persist again.

[Dark Ritual]

Ummmm if there is one -1/-1 counter and one +1/+1 counter on a permanent they are both removed as a state-based action. Pretty confident on that ruling.

I wouldn't run scarscale ritual. I would much prefer diabolic intent, as getting whatever card you want is quite powerful see: demonic tutor. Especially once cage comes out, as white builds will want to answer that card and for diabolic intent you just tutor up whatever answer you have in your deck.

[Qweerios]

Yeah you're right. I just read the ruling on +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters and how the state-based effect works... it's one messed up rule lol

[Gheizen64]

Perilous Research also achieves this effect, but as an instant. Granted, it's in blue...

For the cost of destroying our own creatures, I'd rather play with Diabolic Intent to get the card I want. Both of these still get nailed by Spell Snare.

Uuh it's a sorcery... way worse than i thought. And i guess Diabolic intent would actually be just better in that case, sacrifice Explorer, tutor card you need. This deck looks amazing and play amazing.

[Arianrhod]

I'm not going to do a full report, but rather put down more of my thoughts on the current decklist (back a page...or maybe two).

My local event that was scheduled to fire today was canceled due to snow, so those of us who were interested did a small 9-man legacy event....four rounds with a cut to t4. I beat a finalist r1...thopter/cawblade, lost narrowly to imperial painter r2, beat UWR control r3, and then lost very narrowly to Deadguy in r4, for a 2-2 record.

Deadguy is a stupidly obnoxious matchup, because both decks are attrition-based. As a result, there's a -ton- more maneuvering involved, and every little tiny thing matters. It's a royal headache to play, and a competent Deadguy player can actually out-attrition us. I skunked him pretty good g1, then died g2 by a difference of 1 mana. G3 my deck decided not to show up, and missed too many land drops early on to influence things. Granted, I kept a shaky 6 which had 3s and 4s, alongside a Bayou and a GSZ -> Arbor. I didn't find the missing lands in time....but I defend the hand, because if I had mulled 5, I wouldn't have had enough business to do anything, especially since he had an exceptionally strong 7. My hand had the business, but it was short the land. I think it was a worthwhile risk.

Speaking of business, I haven't missed Hymn. Granted, I didn't play against storm combo, where the card really shines. However, having actual maindeck removal was pretty boss; especially Pulse, which I hadn't been running previously -- oops. Swords was a little more eh, although it shined against dudes equipped with Sword of F&F. Every time I drew a Pulse of a Swords, I'd think to myself that this could have been a Hymn instead...and was always much, much happier it was removal.

Phyrexian Arena was absolutely amazing. I didn't Rector for it, although I'd imagine that the situation will arise where I'll want to at some point. But whenever I naturally drew into it, I won that game, usually with a full grip at the end of it. Definitely a strong consideration, and I find myself wanting a 2nd maindeck.

Thrun was, again, meh. I didn't board him in once, largely due to the prevalence of sacrifice-based removal and Swords of protection from Thrun. I considered boarding him in vs Thopter/Cawblade, but I felt that he would be weak since almost all of my opponent's creatures flew.

Tribute to Hunger was also rather meh, although the matchups that I had weren't exactly ones where the card would shine. I'll probably keep it in for another event or two before changing it, since the card has promise.

Xantid Swarm was interesting. I boarded it in against both blue decks, and I only found it vs UWR...I Zenithed for 1 midgame, and he racked his brain for a while trying to figure out what was going on. He eventually said eff it and let it resolve, at which point I started locking out his counterspells. Good stuff. Whether it's worth the sideboard slot or not, I don't really know -- but again, it's something definitely worth trying out. I'm planning on evaluating it for another few events before reaching a final decision.

Faith's Fetters was stupid good all day. It shut down walkers, creatures, and swords. Very good stuff.

Everything Caleb has said about Skeletal Scrying is true. It's kind of a bitch to find, but it's definitely a powerhouse once you find it. Let alone recurring it with Witness -- woof.

I did miss Top, but I wonder how much of this would be fixed by adding a 2nd Phyrexian Arena, alongside maybe a singleton Top. That might be a terrible idea, but it's something I'll at least look into before dismissing it as such.

That's pretty much what I've got at this point. If I think of anything else, I'll throw it up.

[Qweerios]

I will be playing a GBw list tomorow at a local event and I've been wanting to try out Mystic Enforcer instead of Abyssal Persecutor. Enforcer can be fetched via GSZ and doesn't have to be sacrificed when he's won you the game. He may not be as fast as Percy to block Delvers and Cliques but he does trade that Trample for a steady Pro Black, which is very nice against batterskull.

[TheArchitect]

Long time follower of this thread, first time poster. Mystic Enforcer seems like exactly what this deck needs. I have been using a list similar to calebs and have been trying and trying to find an answer to UW control. I was thinking of settling with abyssal perc too to block fliers and and least force him to hold off on swinging with bskull till he gets mana (or a dude to equip it on). But man, mystic enforcer seems perfect, problack, flying, 6/6 AND green, so a one of is enough.


Also, there doesn't seem to be too much (although some) discussion on birthing pod variants. Pod is a very powerful engine and seems perfect in the GBw explorer decks. Has anyone give much more thought to running a pod list, or had any more success with one?

[routlaw]

Birthing Pod is a pure value engine/attrition gameplay card with some pretty strict deckbuilding requirements. It makes every card in your deck stronger given an infinite amount of turns. However, Legacy is not particularly a format that lets you mope around that long. Matchups vs. unfair decks get worse, as do tempo matchups and anything playing a heap of burn.

Generally speaking, Veteran Explorer control decks (even without Pod) will have a lategame that is superior to almost anything else in the format (Titans and Recurring Nightmare), and committing to Pod isn't necessary to formulate a viable control deck plan against almost anything in current metagame that plays fair.

Regarding fighting U/W - board in Nihil Spellbombs, pop them for cantrip+value vs. Snapcasters when you have a good EOT opportunity to do so and when their yard is getting some good stuff. Play enough Tops and/or cards like Skeletal Scrying or Phyrexian Arena (I think the latter card is real good right now) to grind out seeing more/better cards than the U/W deck does. Your games will take fooorreeevver (no joke) but end pretty decisively. Also please play Pulse do you don't lose to Jace. They don't have much to counter a pulse on Jace if played early, and late game you can almost put them in terrible spots with Grave Titan or Deranged Hermit and just grind the Jace out (this deck is almost unique in its capacity to just grind down an active Jace).

[Arianrhod]

Second RE playing Pulse. I didn't run them for a long time thinking that Deed was enough, and then gave in and tried them out. It's like night and day. Although, I'm actually probably going to start doing 2 Pulse, 1 Vindicate so that the surgical-happy twats that are running around all over the place don't inadvertently shaft me.

I played in another small legacy event yesterday, beating Metalworker, Pox, and Enchantress; losing to Canadian Thresh and then finally UWR control in the top 4. Thresh wasn't even really close, although I will note that my deck didn't really want to do anything. I think I cast somewhere around 5 spells in two games...and might have resolved two of them. UWR was much, much closer. I destroyed the hell out of him g1, then he had double Delver into Elspeth with multiple counter backup g2, and then my deck decided not to play g3. Metalworker was annoying to beat, but very possible. The trick is to shut down their mana accel early on as best you can, while building your own board presence. He thought that I was going to be a bye for him, but events proved otherwise. Deed is a -bitch- for that deck to recover from. Enchantress is a joke with Pulses. Karmic Justice is still a pain in the ass, but that's literally their only answer, and Chains does a number on them. Pox...I don't think I even need to say anything about.

I moved the Swords to sb for this event, putting in a 2nd Phyrexian Arena and a 3rd Maelstrom Pulse. Even after bumping it to a 2-of, I only saw the Arenas once, which was irritating...but I won that game very handily. I'm greatly liking Arena so far. My sb was a cluster for the event, since I wasn't able to borrow a few things I wanted to try out (specifically Xantid Swarm), so I had to change it around. I'm definitely not happy with the sb at this point...that's a work in progress. I'm thinking that I'm going to try trimming Yosei soon and see how it goes -- he'll either become a Sorin, or else a spot as I continue to try to keep the 2 Swords to Plowshares maindeck. While Yosei can definitely get me out of a lot of tight spots that nothing else can, Sun Titan and Kokusho do a better job most of the time.

@Qweerios: definitely let us know how Enforcer goes. I've had my eye on him a few times, but I've never been able to try him out yet.

RE: Birthing Pod. I don't think that the Pod versions are that great right now. There's a fair amount of artifact hate in everyones' sideboards due to stoneforge.dec, and Pod seems like a rather unnecessary backup engine -- GSZ is already plenty good enough. I could see Pod as maybe a 1-of, but I wouldn't do more than that. And at that point, I'm not sure it's worth it.

[Richard Cheese]

Thought about Enforcer too, but in my list between flashing back Therapy, Stronghold, and Ooze, I generally hover right around threshold range. Also as far as 4-drops go, I think I prefer Thrun, esp. against UW. He blocks Batterskull all day like a boss, and won't get Jace bounced, O-ringed, or most importantly, sent plowing.

[Qweerios]

First place at a local event with the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (20)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

Artifact/Enchantment (4)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Compost
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Damnation
1 Consuming Vapors


Round 1: Bant Aggro 2-0

G1: I Therapy out 2 StP and a Goyf, then Witness + StP cleans him up

In: 1 Vapors
Out: 1 Finks

G2: Therapy + Hymn + Deed, then it degenerates very fast

Round 2: Punishing Maverick 2-0

G1: Witness + Deeds (blew about 3)

In: 2 Damnation, 1 Vapors
Out: 1 Finks, 2 Hymn

G2: Removal + Witness + Volrath gets there

Round 3: Reanimator 2-0

G1: Hymn on Entomb and Animate Dead, then my opponent T2 Iona naming Black (I played Red instead of White last week and he beat me that way). I StP Iona and cast an Ooze FTW.

In: 3 Extractions, 2 Tutors, 1 Crypt, 1 Spellbomb, 1 Vapors, 2 Damnation
Out: 4 Hymn, 2 Vindicate, 1 Finks, 1 Hermit, 2 Deed

G2: God hand - I draw Tower, Fetch, Explorer, Extraction, Tormod, Ooze, and GSZ.. then I drew into Bayou and Witness. My opponent spell Pierces the Crypt, Needles the Ooze but cant fight throught the disruption as I fetch Qasali and draw into Tutor -> Spellbomb.

Round 4: Esperblade 2-1

G1: I lead and have an answer to everything my opponent plays but he finally lands a Jace and things get really grim. I am in topdeck mode with a Top at 9 life, and my opponent holding 3 cards in hand and has a SFM, a Snap, a SoFaF, and a Bob in play. I top a Deed and blow everything up except jace. Then I find a GSZ and get a Hermit Druid past a wall of Snaps + SFM + StP to finally sac Hermit to Tower, and repeat with Witness.

In: 1 Vapors
Out: 1 Finks (I wish I had a Thrun there)

G2: A T2 Bob goes unanswered and it piles up from there (I drew into 3 Explorers).

G3: Very weird game... I therapy Jace out, we exchange Hymns and we are quickly in topdeck mode with 2 lands in play, the only exception is that I have a Top in play. I top 2 Vindicates in a row getting rid of his blue and white lands. I Witness to Vindicate more lands while I find a Percy to beat with. Before my opponent can find colored mana I have him to 0 life then I Therapy Percy FTW.

[Richard Cheese]

Good job man. I wish I could say I put up results that nice this weekend, but I went 1-2-bye in combo.meta. I really thought it might be a good proving ground for my latest sideboard, but I never saw a single one of the 10 cards I boarded in against AnT. That's just the way they shuffle up sometimes though.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Anyone tried carpet of flowers in the sideboard? Seems like it should have some applications, especially in a list with a higher curve. But maybe it's not quite what we need vs blue decks?

[Qweerios]

What we need against blue decks is a non-creature win con. I am currently shifting away from Percy because I only ever abuse their low casting cost in a defensive fashion. So far, Garruk Relentless has been doing a great job at punching through Jace along with Hermit. I managed to steal games from Bant decks where they had brainstormed 5+ cards from Jace. Perhaps the new Sorin deserves some attention as well.

[Philipp2293]

So, Tao, it seems you're up to something new, care to tell us about the direction you've taken the deck?

It seems like absolutely crushes Maverick, and should do well against U.decks, but it looks pretty soft to Combo.

[TheArchitect]

What are peoples thoughts about Bloodgift demon? Maybe in place of percy/grave titan as a black endgame wincon. He has roughly the same pros/cons percy does and then has a build in phyrexian arena for one more mana.

[John Cox]

I've never liked abyssal persecutor because for the mana natural order seems way better, but for :3::b::b: Bloodgift demon seems ok. On the finisher note has anyone had much experience with Iona, shield of emeria in a white splash list? She seems like a house against combo.

[Qweerios]

@John Cox

Do you suggest we cast Iona? Or try to reanimate her?

[Richard Cheese]

Even with Explorers, if you make it to the point where you're casting Iona against combo, they've got to be doing something wrong.

Bloodgift Demon actually looks pretty decent. I'm currently trying to figure out what to run over Sun Titan, as I just haven't been super thrilled with him so far in testing. Right now I'm thinking Elspeth, but since BB is probably easier for me to hit, Bloodgift might be worth a shot.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Even with Explorers, if you make it to the point where you're casting Iona against combo, they've got to be doing something wrong.

Bloodgift Demon actually looks pretty decent. I'm currently trying to figure out what to run over Sun Titan, as I just haven't been super thrilled with him so far in testing. Right now I'm thinking Elspeth, but since BB is probably easier for me to hit, Bloodgift might be worth a shot.

I feel like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is usually gonna be more versatile than Bloodgift. Plus he's cheaper and harder to remove. The thing I don't like about Bloodgift Demon, vs. for example Sun Titan/ Grave Titan/ Deranged Hermit, is that he has to not eat removal in order to do anything. I feel like if you're dropping 5-6 mana on something, it really behooves it to either have some sort of shroud, or a comes-into-play ability. It doesn't help that Jace the Mind Sculptor laughs at Bloodgift super hard. And this is a really minor quibble, but he's not tutorable with Fierce Empath (although I haven't been loving Empath, frankly-- agree/disagree?)

Meanwhile, I'm curious if anyone is still running Glissa, the Traitor in the GSZ package these days. She seems pretty spicy in most aggro-esque metas (although she does die to Bolt pretty hard.)

[Richard Cheese]

I feel like Sorin is usually gonna be more versatile than Bloodgift. Plus he's cheaper and harder to remove.

Yeah but I feel like Sorin's first two abilities really don't do much for this deck. I'm not running Hermit Druid or any other token factory, so the -2 is mostly worthless, and I guess a 1/1 lifelinker could have some utility, but when I've already got BSkull and Ooze, also not particularly necessary. I'm also looking at both Lilianas, 2.0 mostly for the sac effect, 1.0 for asymmetrical discard and tutoring. Or I could just run another piece of equipment, something silly like Argentum Armor.

[Tao]

So, Tao, it seems you're up to something new, care to tell us about the direction you've taken the deck?

It seems like absolutely crushes Maverick, and should do well against U.decks, but it looks pretty soft to Combo.

I was getting a PM with a Punishing Fire list so I went ahead and tested it. I changed the list a bit and played it in the trial.
Punishing Fire works out quite well. Like GSZ it lets you do stuff early on and sink Mana into it later. It is good vs. Jace, Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Delver, Maverick, Dredge and Tribal. It can trigger Explorer if you really need it and it has nice synergy with Liliana of the Veil (discard the Fire and get it back. The belcher matchup is probably atrocious but at least you can clear EtW tokens if you get to 3 Mana. Vs. other Combo you get Leylines (though they don't do that much) and a few Red Blasts and Reanimator is winnable post board.

[Arianrhod]

I think it's fairly safe to say that the entire archetype has a fairly atrocious belcher matchup, haha.

I also thought of Fires a while ago, but I didn't think to try to segue it into the main shell...I was experimenting with non-black builds, using Fires as the primary enabler. It failed pretty miserably and I gave up on it. The synergy with Liliana is pretty hot, and it seems like having access to the various burn spells and REBs would improve the blue matchups. I do worry about how it fairs against everything else, though. Fires is a hell of an engine, but something like Zoo usually laughs at it (granted Zoo is usually a bye anyway, but I wouldn't want to lose that free, common matchup). Losing white seems largely inconsequential for non-rector versions. Have you done any more work on the Trinket Mage version, or did you give that up as just too unstable?

Also, to other things: I intend to test a Sorin. At this point I rather doubt that he's going to stay for long. He's more diversification of planeswalker threats, he's a proactive answer to Jace, S/T Emrakul, and other various frightening things once his ult is online, and the lifelink tokens don't seem like a bad thing considering that I'm running two Phyrexian Arenas now. That said, his -2 is basically a dead ability, his vampire tokens don't fly, in a set where most of the vampires do fly (sadface), and he's $60 out of the gate when he's definitely not worth that much.

I also agree RE Bloodgift Demon. He's a pretty solid dude, but if you want him for the utility, just run Arena instead. As others have already said, Iona is vastly too expensive, and our reanimation engine isn't consistent enough by far to reliably get her out that way.

Carpet of Flowers is interesting. It seems to me that it would be good in a meta infested with Thresh tempo decks...the ones that wasteland us and stifle us into the stone age while punching us to death with a 1/1 the whole time (no anger here, clearly).

Has anyone tested Mystic Enforcer yet? I just picked one up as a throw-in on a trade a few days ago, so I'm good to go if nobody has yet (or it has proven good).

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Also, to other things: I intend to test a Sorin. .... That said, his -2 is basically a dead ability...

Kind of a minor quibble, but I feel like between Deranged Hermit, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Garruk Relentless, there could potentially be a version of this deck that takes good advantage of Sorin's +1/+0 to all your creatures ability. Whether or not it's actually worth building around that extensively is an entirely different question though.

[TheArchitect]

I dont think the token route is way to go. I have to say the best card in this deck is Pernicious Deed, it just takes a giant dump on the format. If this decks gameplan is going to rely on tokens deed stops looking so good for us. We want deed to read "(3): destroy all non-land permanents your opponent controls."

[Gheizen64]

I dont think the token route is way to go. I have to say the best card in this deck is Pernicious Deed, it just takes a giant dump on the format. If this decks gameplan is going to rely on tokens deed stops looking so good for us. We want deed to read "(3): destroy all non-land permanents your opponent controls."

I think deed is the best card in this deck too. It give massive board advantage against so many decks, and allow nice fit to beat decks like maverick that you really wouldn't be able without.

[sap]

back in alara standard (just after M11 came out) i started playing esper sun titan control and i loved these kind enters/leaves the battlefield sinergies so i decided to build this deck.

im using the BGw version with academy rector, swords to plowshares and singleton sun titan as finisher (along side a singleton grave titan) and im still learning how to play the deck against all archtypes out there and i just cant deal with UWx tempo/control and Burn.

i know burn is all about luck (luck that they dont topdeck something awsome) and discard, i have 4 cabal therapy + 2 duress sideboard but i still lose more than i win, what cards should i discard first? what about creatures, should i just play kitchen finks asap? does Ethersworn Canonist help at all? maybe gaddock teeg (for that stupid fireblast)?

now the hardest (at least for me), UWx tempo/control decks that run jace, the mind sculptor and stoneforge mystic. you want to play a threat? they remove it. you want to remove their threats? they counter it. you wanna discard them? they'll just counter or snapcaster mage the card back..
how should i play against these decks? by the time i stabilize the board its already too late and any top deck will kill me.. what creatures (for green sun's zenith) are priority against this matchup? its driving me crazy! pernicious deed doesnt work on jace, the mind sculptor and its too expensive to attack a batterskull. i can try and maelstrom pulse it but they'll just counter or return it to hand. choke helps.. if you can manage to play it and if they dont just remove it.. its so annoying the amount of options (and overpowerness) UWx gives.

since i run academy rector im thinking in running a singleton oblivion ring + 2 pernicious deed instead of 3 pernicious deed. kills jace, the mind sculptor and can be returned with sun titan in case they remove it (also good with eternal witness).

anyway im loving this deck, it can perform real awsome, game changing plays. a really fun deck to play.

[Tao]

First of all play 1 Faith's Fetters in the maindeck in the Rector version. It will improve your Burn matchup a bit as well as being a great solution for Planeswalkers. They usually don't have Enchantment Removal and if you put it on a Jace they can't just play a second without killing both. It is also solid on Batterskull (if they let you search with Rector they can't return Batterskull anymore once you showed Fetters) or Riptide Laboratory and of course it can always stop a creature if you draw it.

Against Burn Canonist does not help a lot. Teeg for Fireblast is a nice idea. I never thought of it but it should help a bit. You want one anyway for GSZ against Storm Combo so bring him in. Won't win on his own but every little bit helps.
Maybe I misunderstand your question but the cards that you want to Discard are of course those that deal the most damage^^ Their biggest threat is Sulfuric Vortex. Keep Pulses in for G2 because of Vortex. Try to minimize the number of nonbasics if possible to reduce Price of Progress damage. There is no point in waiting on Finks. Just run them out as soon as you can. Sac them to Therapy or Tower and start recurring them with Witness, Recurring Nightmare or Sun Titan. Ooze can gain a few life and in the white version with Swords you can gain some life back by swording one of your own guys if absolutely needed.
The best SB plan against against Burn for a Rector version is probably a singleton Leyline of Sanctity and of course as many Finks as you can find room for.

The matchup vs. Jace/Stoneforge control is very hard for non-Punishing Fire versions (and still hard for those with P. Fire). The best SB plan against UW Stoneforge for nonred decks are Pithing Needles (I have 3 in SB). Play Deeds maindeck and switch them with Needles for G2. You won't need Deed anyway G2 against them and most of their threats can be needled, like Jace TMS, Elspeth, their Equipment or Riptide Laboratories.

[TheArchitect]

Well burn and UW control are probably this decks two hardest matchups so that is to be expected. You might want to consider a etutor board, something like:

2-3 Etutor
1 choke
1 ethersworn (for combo, doesnt help much against burn, they just kill it or ignore it)
1 circle protection red (nothing will hose burn harder than this, and you should have plenty of mana to invest in it)
2 GY hate
1 Oring
1-3 pithing needle (batterskull, jace, sfm, elspeth, lavamancer, etc)


Against burn, you want to rip apart their hand asap. Hymns and therapys will win you this matchup. For therapys, keep in a mind a good burn player plays their less efficient burn first (so if they tap out for lava spike, they probably have lightning bolt in hand still). Kitchen finks is also a champ here, have an extra sided if your really worried about it.

Im going to do some testing against UW with gaea's revenge. For now at least, Im using a B/G list so I wont have access to the Etutor board, or I'd go with that probably. Against UW the game almost always gets to the point where you have 8ish lands out. I feel like gaeas does everything we need it to against UW except fly and gets hit with wrath. But it cant be countered, swords proof, has haste, and trample to get over bskull and hit jace.

[Qweerios]

Against burn, Finks is fine, but you need something to nail them such as: Witness, Hymn, CoP: Red, Gerrard's Verdict or some form of lifegain equipment because we don't put out much a clock and they have all the time they need to build up enough burn to kill us twice.

As far as U/R burn goes, it's an entirely different story. Finks are worthless in that matchup and they can pick appart your survival cards with counterspells. The U/R Delver/Burn matchup is difficult because Explorer accelerates them enough to drill us even harder with Cliques and Snaps. My advice on this matchup is to try and discard as much as possible early, pack lots of 1 CMC removal (Bolts, StP, REB, Pyro, Darkblast), play and protect your Ooze, and if U/R Delver is popular in your meta, pack a single Sporecap Spider in your sideboard, it is much better than Finks for that matchup. they generally don't pack enough burn to take away 20 points of life fast enough, they need a Guide or a Delver to dish out at least 6 points of damage. You need your removal to be 1CMC because you have to play around Daze, and Spell Snare.

For U/W Jace.dec, all you really need to lookout for is Jace. We have the better cards, we just need to keep tabs on the number of cards they have. They have SFM and Snaps which will inevitably net them card advantage, but we have Hymns, Witnesses, and we can force them to FoW us. Playing cards like Duress don't amount to much unless you intend to follow up with an insurmountable threat that targeted removal cannot clean up completely such as Titan, Druid, Garruk, etc... Hermit gives them a heart attack.

As for tokens with Pernicious Deed, yes, it sounds like a bad idea at first. Although, the Planeswalkers that generate tokens are token generators, and those are great with Deed. It doesnt matter if you have to blow up 5 tokens to get rid of 2 KotR with Deed as long as you keep that Sorin/Garruk/Elspeth alive, you get to rebuild the turn after, and thats a lot of pressure for your opponent to deal with. You are not losing 6 cards to get rid of 2, you are losing 5 virtual cards that you can regenerate just as easely and trading a Deed for 2 KotR. It is more about your production capacity post-deed versus your opponent's instead of raw number exchanges.

P.S: What is Nic Fit? And why am I seeing people saying Nice Fit now?

[Arianrhod]

@ Qweerios -- I agree RE name. Can we please have a better name for this deck? I mean, I grant that "Explorer Rock" isn't necessarily any better, but at least it doesn't make one cringe to announce your deck as.

The tokens approach is intriguing, and might be worth trying out -- although I think that it has to be focused around the planeswalkers, as Qweerios noted. Even if you have a respectable board presence, cracking a deed and then spewing out a few tokens from one of the many possible walkers seems like a decent plan. Also, Bitterblossom is a card that would probably fit into this style of deck reasonably well....although at cmc 2, it's right in the prime firing range for Deed.

I'll mostly echo what others have said here, although I don't have much trouble with burn at all. I also have 2-3 burn decks at any given local event, so I need to be able to fight them. With that in mind, I have two Finks split between maindeck and sideboard, along with a pair of Leyline of Sanctity's. For the Rector version, this is usually sufficient hate -- you can get to the Leylines naturally, in opening hand, or via Rector. My plan vs Burn is almost always to set up Recurring Nightmare with Finks -- ideally with double Finks postboard. I have also run a CoP:Red in the past, although at the moment with NO:Pro at a low point, I don't see much point in it. Being able to hit with Therapy is an important skill, and it definitely helps against burn -- oftentimes, their hands have duplicates or even triplicates in their hand, due to the 4x nature of their deck. If you can get a good read on their hand, a lot of the time you can cripple them on the spot.

Counterburn is definitely a different animal, and Qweerios' suggestions are pretty much spot on.

As far as U/W Jace.dec, Jace is usually the only card that matters. Have you tried out Cranial Extraction/Memoricide? Usually they have to blow their hard countermagic on some crippling threat early, leaving them vulnerable to a Cranial stripping their Jaces. Without their Jaces, their deck becomes significantly weaker. Along the same line, -definitely- run a Faith's Fetters if you have Rector. I've successfully Rector'd in a Fetters on a Jace, and let me tell you, damn does it feel good. They just stare at you in a daze...sometimes it can even put them on full tilt once they realize that they need to find two more Jaces before they can stick one.

[Stoyrm]

My list

1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Grave Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Go for the Throat
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Damnation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

So basically my list is close to CalebD's list. I added a Savannah to be able to cast Gaddock Teeg should i draw it. I play in a combo heavy meta (lots of elves, a belcher, reanimator, dredge, high tide, hive mind) with a dash of merfolk, pox, maverick, zoo and some U/W Stoneforge as side dishes. I know this isn't the perfect meta for this deck, but i do like the deck. I'm thinking that my sideboard might not be good enough. Skeletal Scrying seems sick against U/W Stoneforge and i'm thinking of cutting the Wall of Blossoms as it only seems to stop Zoo creatures. Any thoughts on how to change my sideboard to combat jaces, elves and other combo decks?

[Tao]

The Wall should become a third Top. One Ooze should be enough, better run a second Witness.

the SB could look something like this:

- 2 Engineered Plague: Lots of Elves? Plague them. Also good against Dredge and Maverick (name Human for Mother of Runes and Hierarch) and useful against Belcher and Merfolk.
- 3 Pithing Needle: Bring in vs. Jace, Pox and Belcher.
- 3 Thoughtseize: for the many Combo decks, and 2-3 against SFM/Jace decks.
- 4 Surgical Extraction: In your odd Meta I think that is the correct choice. Imo just a better card than Extirpate. Vs. Reanimator it gets around Daze, vs. Dredge and other Combo decks Split Second doesn't matter much while the speed could matter a lot.
- 1 Gaddock Teeg: GSZ for Combo
- 2 Innocent Blood: Just so you have something to bring in should you run into Zoo or Delver

[Gheizen64]

No Massacre for sideboards? Card is the nut right now imho. Work also as a 0 mana cost sacrifice outlet.

[Bobboviking]

I thought it was about time i stopped lurking and started posting on the source so I thought Id share my Nic Fit (hate the name) with you guys. I view it as a work in progress and I really enjoy playing it (the deck can do so many things!) but I tend to change stuff alot beacuse there are so many good cards the deck can play.

The list:
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Academy Rector
1 Reveillark
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Birthing Pod

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Massacre Wurm

I play in a meta that shifts alot (one week 3 burn show and the next noone plays it etc), most players change decks like they change underpants. Therefore I find it kinda hard to construct a sideboard that suits the metagame. Massacre Wurm is mainly in there for testing.

I really like Birthing Pod but lately Ive been thinking if i should try playing 2 copies. Mabey swap one for a 2nd Grave Titan since he just ends games. I have also been thinking about cutting the Wall of Blossoms (especially if I end up playing 2 Birthing Pod) mabey for a 2nd Scavenging Ooze.

Thankful for any help/opinions/insights on the deck.

[Stoyrm]

The Wall should become a third Top. One Ooze should be enough, better run a second Witness.

the SB could look something like this:

- 2 Engineered Plague: Lots of Elves? Plague them. Also good against Dredge and Maverick (name Human for Mother of Runes and Hierarch) and useful against Belcher and Merfolk.
- 3 Pithing Needle: Bring in vs. Jace, Pox and Belcher.
- 3 Thoughtseize: for the many Combo decks, and 2-3 against SFM/Jace decks.
- 4 Surgical Extraction: In your odd Meta I think that is the correct choice. Imo just a better card than Extirpate. Vs. Reanimator it gets around Daze, vs. Dredge and other Combo decks Split Second doesn't matter much while the speed could matter a lot.
- 1 Gaddock Teeg: GSZ for Combo
- 2 Innocent Blood: Just so you have something to bring in should you run into Zoo or Delver

Played a bit today. Played against Elves, The Gate, Deadguy Ale. Elves was pretty close but it seemed in their favour. I did cut the Wall of Blossoms for the Eternal Witness midgame, and was pretty impressed with it. Eternal Witness was the card i wanted to tutor for everytime all day long. Ooze was not very good against these matchups but apparently someone is bringing dredge as well, and i liked that card against them a lot. But one Ooze might be enough, it's just so stupidly good in some matchups, spesifically UW Stoneforge and Punishing Maverick.

My list atm is now; -1 Wall of Blosssoms, +1 Eternal Witness. Sideboard will probably be as you suggested, but making room for 1x Skeletal Scrying, as i really want to try it out in some matchups.

Deadguy Ale was the deck that gave me the most trouble today. The Gate and Elves seemed fine. (We only played preboard today though).

[Arianrhod]

Deadguy is going to give you some trouble. They're very similar to us, in a way, although instead of acceleration, they run even more disruption and removal. They run planeswalkers (notably Elspeth) that can be a serious pain to remove. The best you can do is try to actively remove their threats, expecting your hand and your threats to go away. If you can get into a topdeck war with Deadguy, you're probably going to win. Think of it as an attrition-based deck mirror, and that should help a bit.

[Tao]

Note that Engineered Plague is also very good against Deadguy Ale.Their main card is Dark Confidant and you should do everything to stop it. It also gets their token makers, Bitterblossom, Sorin, Lingering Souls or Elspeth. Plague seems like the perfect SB card for your Meta, you might want a third.

[Greenpoe]

Good point- with Plague, naming Human vs. Deadguy gets Confidant, Mother of Runes and sacrifices your Explorer. Naming Soldier can kill their Eslpeth tokens as well as sacrificing Explorer, too.

[Qweerios]

I replaced 3 Percy for 3 Bloodgift Demon(The list is posted on the previous page) today, I went:

R1: 2-0 Dredge
R2: 2-1 Zoo
R3: 1-1-1 Stoneblade
R4: 1-2 Stoneblade

The two last games were very long and difficult, especially because I don't own a Thrun... Jace is still a pain to deal with, and Bloodgift doesn't cut it against unlimited StP and WoG. After these long matches, someone made me realize that Grave Titan instead of Demon would probably have granted me first place at that event. What is essential about Grave Titan as a bomb is that it grants immediate card advantage. What I dislike about Titan though, is that he doesn't do anything that Hermit can't, he is this deck's Hermit #2-3. Also, Titan doesn't solve the issue that every single one of our threats against Stoneblade fall to Wrath of God.

With that being said, I think this deck needs a Garruk. I have seen Stoneblade players lose to the worst players simply because they managed to land a Bitterblossom or an Elspeth. If we have troubles dealing with a resolved Jace, imagine how much they must struggle against a resolved Garruk... Now, which Garruk to play: Relentless or Primal Hunter? I tested Relentless quite a bit and thought he was good, but lacked in power level. His tokens are small, he isn't as good when he cannot snipe something right away, and he doesn't have a finishing ability. Although Hunter has that triple Forest requirement, I think his abilities are more suited to replacing Titan.

On a different note, I am once again torn between White and Red as my 3rd color. Which cards are the best and why between:

Swords to Plowshares VS. Lightning Bolt;

Vindicate VS. Maelstrom Pulse;

Grave Titan VS. Broodmate Dragon;

Enlightened Tutor VS. Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast?

To me, it is obvious that Vindicate is better than Pulse, but not by a huge margin. As for StP and Lightning Bolt, burn reach may have merits that I don't fully realize yet. Broodmate Dragon seems like a pure upgrade to Grave Titan simply because the tokens fly and he can be fetched via GSZ. I don't expect the continuous stream of tokens Titan provides to be a selling point because 6 CMC threats that go unanswered generally win by themselves. Tutor board against REB board is a tough choice altogether...

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Note that Engineered Plague is also very good against Deadguy Ale.Their main card is Dark Confidant and you should do everything to stop it. It also gets their token makers, Bitterblossom, Sorin, Lingering Souls or Elspeth. Plague seems like the perfect SB card for your Meta, you might want a third.

It's a solid choice, just never forget that Witness is a Human herself. Last sunday i won a match because my opponent forgot that and he couldn't block afterwards :p

Otherwise the application are very wide.

Tao, how is your Punishing list working? Red Blast and Broodmate Dragon seem very strong.

[Richard Cheese]

I replaced 3 Percy for 3 Bloodgift Demon(The list is posted on the previous page) today, I went:

R1: 2-0 Dredge
R2: 2-1 Zoo
R3: 1-1-1 Stoneblade
R4: 1-2 Stoneblade

The two last games were very long and difficult, especially because I don't own a Thrun... Jace is still a pain to deal with, and Bloodgift doesn't cut it against unlimited StP and WoG. After these long matches, someone made me realize that Grave Titan instead of Demon would probably have granted me first place at that event. What is essential about Grave Titan as a bomb is that it grants immediate card advantage. What I dislike about Titan though, is that he doesn't do anything that Hermit can't, he is this deck's Hermit #2-3. Also, Titan doesn't solve the issue that every single one of our threats against Stoneblade fall to Wrath of God.

With that being said, I think this deck needs a Garruk. I have seen Stoneblade players lose to the worst players simply because they managed to land a Bitterblossom or an Elspeth. If we have troubles dealing with a resolved Jace, imagine how much they must struggle against a resolved Garruk... Now, which Garruk to play: Relentless or Primal Hunter? I tested Relentless quite a bit and thought he was good, but lacked in power level. His tokens are small, he isn't as good when he cannot snipe something right away, and he doesn't have a finishing ability. Although Hunter has that triple Forest requirement, I think his abilities are more suited to replacing Titan.

On a different note, I am once again torn between White and Red as my 3rd color. Which cards are the best and why between:

Swords to Plowshares VS. Lightning Bolt;

Vindicate VS. Maelstrom Pulse;

Grave Titan VS. Broodmate Dragon;

Enlightened Tutor VS. Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast?

To me, it is obvious that Vindicate is better than Pulse, but not by a huge margin. As for StP and Lightning Bolt, burn reach may have merits that I don't fully realize yet. Broodmate Dragon seems like a pure upgrade to Grave Titan simply because the tokens fly and he can be fetched via GSZ. I don't expect the continuous stream of tokens Titan provides to be a selling point because 6 CMC threats that go unanswered generally win by themselves. Tutor board against REB board is a tough choice altogether...

I keep thinking it would be hilarious to side in Living Death for the inevitable Wraths coming from Stoneblade. If my meta was full of that I probably would, but the usefulness seems limited outside that matchup. Ooze + Deed + Living Death is pretty cute though. I think the real answer to that matchup is just planeswalkers of our own. Trying to choose between Garruk PH or Elspeth currently. Either way you get an engine that can recover from a Wrath or Deed.

[Theonlyone]

Hello, I've been playing the deck with success in my local metagame for several weeks and because of the gravedigger's cage, I'm wondering if the deck is still viable in the metagame. I don't think the cage will be much played but it's still possible so any suggestions for the deck?

I've been playing the B/G version, because it's a better deck against combo because of hymn to Tourach and people keep playing that in my local metagame.

[muscleb]

I have been playing some G/B with hymns. I have been having trouble with Burn decks lately, sure having a bunch of discard helps, but I need something with more impact in my board for this matchup. I can't really come up with anything in only those two colors, any suggestions?

[TheArchitect]

Hello, I've been playing the deck with success in my local metagame for several weeks and because of the gravedigger's cage, I'm wondering if the deck is still viable in the metagame. I don't think the cage will be much played but it's still possible so any suggestions for the deck?

I've been playing the B/G version, because it's a better deck against combo because of hymn to Tourach and people keep playing in my local metagame.

While annoying, we have like 7-8 maindeck answers to it, and possibly more sided, and thats not including cabal therapy. I dont think its anything to worry too much about.


I have been playing some G/B with hymns. I have been having trouble with Burn decks lately, sure having a bunch of discard helps, but I need something with more impact in my board for this matchup. I can't really come up with anything in only those two colors, any suggestions?
Burn is a tough matchup for this deck. Discard and lifegain are you best tools to fight burn. Kitchen finks is champ here, also any creature with a toughness greater than 3. You really have to hit them some therapys/hymns or they can just fishbowl you in 3-4 turns (even faster if you give them lands with explorer).

[Richard Cheese]

Got in some good testing last night with a few friends. Went 2-0 against Stoneblade and 1-0 against Enchantress. Getting more comfortable with the deck, and pretty happy with my changes. SFM/Batterskull really gives this deck some staying power in long grindy matches.

The main spot I'm not sure about are Planeswalker: Garruk PH is easier to cast and can be a great draw engine, but Elspeth gives better evasion and therefore is a better finisher. Both their ultimates have great synergy with the deck too. One issue is that all my Elspeths are from EvT, and when I sleeved one up it was obvious as hell in the deck.

The other slots I'm debating are the 3rd Deed vs. the 4th GSZ. Deed can be a huge blowout against some decks, and make up for our lack of speed, but GSZ is a lot more flexible. Heck, it can even grab Witness to grab a used Deed!

[Arianrhod]

I think that for now, I'd stick with the 3rd Deed vs the 4th GSZ, at least until the furor over Cage settles down and we can see how obnoxious it truly is. Running 4 GSZ with only 2 Deed seems like asking to get shot in the ass by Cage, since you know that people will bring it in against us, whether it's correct or not (I'm of the opinion that it is not...at least for most decks/versions of this deck).

For those running G/B and having trouble with burn, have you considered Nighthawk? 3 toughness is a bitch, but at -worst- it's a healing salve, because they HAVE to kill it. At best, they've had to burn out a few other problem cards and/or your disruption has left them without answers, and it'll gain you some precious life. Mostly though, Finks is your ticket here. If you're really having trouble with it, you could always consider Lox. Hierarch and/or Obstinate Baloth.

[muscleb]

I am playing one finks, but I just died anyway when I got it. I smashed their hand with discard, but without a clock on the table they just kill me eventually.

I think Baloth is what I am looking for, the nighthawk is okish but a 3 mana healing salve is not going to cut it, Baloth gains some life, blocks and provides a decent clock(and can be found with zenith).

Thanks for the help.

[Gheizen64]

I replaced 3 Percy for 3 Bloodgift Demon(The list is posted on the previous page) today, I went:

R1: 2-0 Dredge
R2: 2-1 Zoo
R3: 1-1-1 Stoneblade
R4: 1-2 Stoneblade

The two last games were very long and difficult, especially because I don't own a Thrun... Jace is still a pain to deal with, and Bloodgift doesn't cut it against unlimited StP and WoG. After these long matches, someone made me realize that Grave Titan instead of Demon would probably have granted me first place at that event. What is essential about Grave Titan as a bomb is that it grants immediate card advantage. What I dislike about Titan though, is that he doesn't do anything that Hermit can't, he is this deck's Hermit #2-3. Also, Titan doesn't solve the issue that every single one of our threats against Stoneblade fall to Wrath of God.

With that being said, I think this deck needs a Garruk. I have seen Stoneblade players lose to the worst players simply because they managed to land a Bitterblossom or an Elspeth. If we have troubles dealing with a resolved Jace, imagine how much they must struggle against a resolved Garruk... Now, which Garruk to play: Relentless or Primal Hunter? I tested Relentless quite a bit and thought he was good, but lacked in power level. His tokens are small, he isn't as good when he cannot snipe something right away, and he doesn't have a finishing ability. Although Hunter has that triple Forest requirement, I think his abilities are more suited to replacing Titan.

On a different note, I am once again torn between White and Red as my 3rd color. Which cards are the best and why between:

Swords to Plowshares VS. Lightning Bolt;

Vindicate VS. Maelstrom Pulse;

Grave Titan VS. Broodmate Dragon;

Enlightened Tutor VS. Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast?

To me, it is obvious that Vindicate is better than Pulse, but not by a huge margin. As for StP and Lightning Bolt, burn reach may have merits that I don't fully realize yet. Broodmate Dragon seems like a pure upgrade to Grave Titan simply because the tokens fly and he can be fetched via GSZ. I don't expect the continuous stream of tokens Titan provides to be a selling point because 6 CMC threats that go unanswered generally win by themselves. Tutor board against REB board is a tough choice altogether...

Punishing fires is another decent reasons to go red. One problem i've found with it is the fact that the manabase can be a little shaky when you add in those Groves alongside all the basics you need for explorer and whatsnot.

I also think that Broodmate is by far the best finisher for the deck, the flying help a lot when compared to Hermit and Titan, it give you a lot more inevitability.

As for Bolt vs StP, it depends on too many factors. Bolt has the ability to hit walker to go for it, while StP exile goyfs and KotRs.

You could also consider Bloodbraid if you go RGB. I know it has a lot of anti-synergy with GSZ, but it's still a pretty good anti-control card. If you flip anything but GSZ, you're ok, bolting people, laying down pernicious, explorers, witnesses and whatsnot.

[Richard Cheese]

I am playing one finks, but I just died anyway when I got it. I smashed their hand with discard, but without a clock on the table they just kill me eventually.

I think Baloth is what I am looking for, the nighthawk is okish but a 3 mana healing salve is not going to cut it, Baloth gains some life, blocks and provides a decent clock(and can be found with zenith).

Thanks for the help.

Zuran Orb in the board?

[Tao]

I was about to say that Grave Titan is better than Broodmate but then I saw that you can actually GSZ for Broodmate which I completely missed before. Good idea with Broodmate, playing 1 is certainly correct.

The Burn matchup is positive imo but atm with the recent SCG win of Burn and the popularity of UR Burn you should certainly have a second Finks in the Sideboard and a third won't harm. Once you start using Finks multiple times with Witness or Recurring Nightmare you should be fine.

[Greenpoe]

You can always just go Fierce Empath->Grave Titan. Sometimes it's slower than GSZ'ing for 7, but often times, it's faster (GSZ for 3 when you have 4-5 lands, then Grave Titan once you hit 6).

[Gheizen64]

You can always just go Fierce Empath->Grave Titan. Sometimes it's slower than GSZ'ing for 7, but often times, it's faster (GSZ for 3 when you have 4-5 lands, then Grave Titan once you hit 6).

With that play you use 2 cards as a single tutor and 4+6 mana to get a finisher that doesn't fly over KotR and MoM. And that's significantly worse against StP compared to brood (brood leave you with a 4/4 flying, Titan with 2 2/2).
On 4 lands i'd rather search for a fink or play a Deed or a Liliana/Garruk/etc than tutor for an empath. Before playing empath just play Hermit imho, it's the better card.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

It may just be me wanting to go against the grain a little bit, but I'm interested in coming up with a blue-splashed list, just to test out. Brainstorm is obviously the tits in this deck, since we're very controlly in most matchups, we have a fair amount of one-ofs, and we have a lot of built in shuffles. In the BGu list I've been using on MWS, the only blue cards I use in my maindeck are 4 Brainstorm and 1 Trygon Predator, who I haven't had to tutor for yet, but seems pretty amazing on paper, obv. I hear Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a pretty good card too, if you want to commit to a double blue casting cost. But I'm a little unsure, since I usually try to only have double-color requirements in two out of three colors when I'm building Nic Fit variants.

What really attracts me to wanting to splash blue though, is the feeling that some sort of counterspell suite would shore up this deck's weaknesses to combo and some forms of blue-based control. The tricky thing though, is I can't fathom a good version of this deck that could pack ~18 blue cards in the main to justify Force of Will. And I'm also not entirely sure the card disadvantage from FoW is what we would need, even if it did fit in the deck smoothly. So far, I've had my eye on some weird counters: Flusterstorm, Negate, and Countersquall. I think Flusterstorm is the most iffy of these in this deck, because we're oftentimes giving the opponent a few free lands. The logic on that one is it's good against any stack-based combo, and it's pretty decent at protecting your bombs against opposing counters, since it will at the very least be a Mana Leak for :u: if they try to counter one of your spells. The other two are probably the best hard counters we've got, since I'm not trying to leave double blue open for Counterspell. Also, we do have a fair amount of creature removal, so not being able to counter creatures seems like it's acceptable. All three of these seem more like sideboard cards than maindeck cards to me though, which begs the question: is it productive to have a counterspell suite in your sideboard in a deck that's not heavily committed to blue? If so, what would the right number and mix of counters be? Are there any that are good enough to justify running in the main? Why or why not? I'm not sure if this is a good way to take the deck, but I thought I'd toss it out there as food for thought and see if anyone thinks these, or any other blue cards have potential to shore up some of our weaknesses.

Re: This deck needs a better name... I agree. So far though, the only thing I've been able to come up with is both cheesy and slightly un-PC: "I Rock Veterans"? :tongue:

[Koby]

I second the name change to "Veteran Rock" or "Explorer Rock".

@ DukeDemon
I could see a Blue Rock build using Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage to do some heinous things. You only need 2 Snapcasters in such a build too.

[nelumbo]

Felt it was time to contribute with something, after a few months of reading this thread. In fact I planned to do so earlier, but didn't feel any of my earlier lists were good enough to post, as I was rather displeased with their results.

I totally agree regarding the name of this deck: I prefer the not so political correct name "Four little ******s", though I understand some would choose another name…

Concerning the decks content, I've tested several versions and settled with this list:

Creatures [16]
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Dungrove Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Istants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [10]
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments [3]
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Garruk Relentless

Lands [21]
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB
N/A

The only thing I'm aiming to change at the moment is returning 3-4 Hymns and then (of course) changes the manabase.

Here are some of the cards that have been dismissed:
Fierce Empath - Tried him as a one-off, since it seemed sweet searching for a more...ehm... bootylicious executer. Never felt he was the right choice of tutor, as you most likely don’t want to waste a GSZ unless you’ve loads of lands, are in desperate need of another shuffle with the Top or have Deranged Hermit in the graveyard/exiled.

Liliana of the Veil - Usually a 1BB Cruel Edict, unless it's late game or Sun Titan is in play.

Skeletal Scrying - Awesome at times but way too often a dead card due to too much life loss already. Changed it into the less broken but more consistent Top.

[Arianrhod]

@rukcus - I would dearly love to get a Gifts version running again. I just don't think that the meta is quite right for it at the moment, and there's a lot of R&D to be done on it anyway.

@Nelumbo - welcome to the thread! I actually like your list a lot. Why Wickerbough and Qasali both? I'd think that Qasali with Titan, Deeds, and Pulses should be sufficient. I find your lack of Recurring Nightmare ... disturbing. With Tops and shuffles, you should be able to find it by the point at which it matters, and with both Grave Titan and Deranged Hermit, you've got plenty of ways of abusing it. Since you're running Relentless, you might want to give Master of the Wild Hunt a shot -- he can do some pretty disgusting things, especially once Garruk flips.

I'd probably test -1 Wickerbough +1 Master, and -1 Swords +1 Recurring Nightmare. My thought is that you should have enough removal without the 4th Swords main, especially with Witnesses to recur them. This is even more the case considering that your sideboard will probably have more spot removal (targetted or sacrifice).

Speaking of which, what are you thinking for a preliminary sideboard? I know you said N/A, but have you thought about it at all?

[nelumbo]

Thanks for complimenting the list. I honestly believe it's one of the better versions I've seen of the deck. Someone, please provide a Donate for my Illusions of Grandeur ;)

The reason I play with both Pridemage and Wickerbough is becaus there's a lot of Stoneforge in my meta. Perhaps it's a bit overkill, but I've felt Wickerbough/Deed is a bit too slow at times (often) to handle the problem/problems. Perhaps I'm pushing it way too far, but I don't believe so sadly, since I'd like that spot for something else.

I really, REALLY want to run Recurring Nightmare and I might be wrong when I dismised it as a way to often dead draw. I've considered to give it another run in the deck and I'd be really happy in case if turned out positive.

Yeah, Master of the Wild Hunt seams awesome in this kind of version. He was actually an unknown card to me, prior to seeing it in your decklist. The main reason why I haven't given him a spot is becaus I don't own one. I'm doing some playtesting on saturday, so I'll give him a chance. MotWH was a actually

I'll consider give your suggestions (those are highly appriciated!). I'm a bit skeptic towards removing the 4th StP, but the more I ponder upon it I must confess it seams rather logic actually.

This is the SB I used during last tournament where I participated:
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Path to Exile
1 Deed
2 E Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Thrun (Didn't run one in the maindeck then. A huge mistake! Lost on game because of not being able to handle my opponents Thrun)
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Leyline of the Void (Mainly because it was a evening tournament and I was tired so it felt like a nice nobrainer, instead of a - most likely better - and more flexible choise of graveyard hate.)

Edit: Oh, I totally forgot to mention that a huge problem that I faced during the last tournament was the 40 min games, since it always went to time. A bit frustrating to loose/draw against decks that I'm confident that I could beat with some more time.

[nelumbo]

Qweerios: Broodmate Dragon is one of the better suggestions regarding fatties I've seen! He seams like a very good reason to try red. The only disadvantage I can think of would be that he might be slightly worse than Grave Titan if you have to go the defensive path.

[Arianrhod]

Hmm -- your meta is infested with Stoneblade, but you don't have any Krosan Grips in your board?

I actually like Leyline of the Void a lot going forward. Many of the graveyard decks are actually SALIVATING at Cage being printed, because it doesn't actively kill them like Leyline does (Lands and Aggroloam come immediately to mind). I like Surgical/Extripate a lot personally, since you can screw up peoples' topdeck tutors and Tops with them, while stripping away threats and acting as general graveyard hate. But I do think that Leyline has gained a ton of value going forward.

If you have access to a Chains of Mephistopheles, I would highly recommend it. It's done a lot of good things for me, and although I don't board it in as much as I used to since adopting Phyrexian Arenas over Top, it still does good work for me (I used to board it in vs almost anything that was blue, now I reserve it for Stoneblade and storm decks....if you can stick it, High Tide literally can't win).

I'm going to say this generally for all of us, but it applies for you as well: going forward, I think Tragic Slip is a card we need to consider. It can ping away Delvers immediately, and oftentimes it can kill damn near anything, due to the amount of creatures that usually die with our deck. It's certainly much better than Dismember for us, and better than Darkblast as well, I would say.

From what I can infer of your meta, I would suggest something like the following:

3x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Engineered Plague
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Pithing Needle

I could see the Plagues as spot removal instead, Slip, 4th Swords/1 Path, Innocent Blood, etc...there's a lot of options. But it depends on what the Plagues are there for, really.

[Richard Cheese]

I second the name change to "Veteran Rock" or "Explorer Rock".

@ DukeDemon
I could see a Blue Rock build using Gifts Ungiven and Snapcaster Mage to do some heinous things. You only need 2 Snapcasters in such a build too.

Dora Rock!
http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/d/dora_the_explorer-5243.jpg

Also "four little ******s"?? Jesus man, like I'm not embarrassed enough to say the deck name.

Edit:
Also Donner Party is kind of fitting...

Also what the hell Dora, get a shirt that fits!

[nelumbo]

I was considering Grip, but didn’t feel it would have enough value since I’ve access to two Disenchant-guys, two Pulse and three Deed in main. I’m rather certain they’ll be able to do the job and at the same time be more flexible. Also, I don’t believe there’s enough space in the SB for ‘em, as that would be on the expense of more important cards over all.

Totally agree regarding Leyline vs Cage, because of the reason you stated. What I’d play over 4 Leyline would be something like 2 Crypt (or something similar) and 2 Extirpate/Surgical for a more flexible game against decks that isn’t that graveyard dependent but take advantage of it.

Is Chains really that good? Seems like one of those cards that are nuts in theory but so-so in practice and too often a dead card. So far I’ve never had any real problems with Jace (the major reason to use it, right?), as Dungrove Elder and Thrun as really hard for those decks to handle. I can somewhat see the point an Academy Rector list though. Must say I’m very tempted to try a build with her. Well, actually did copy on of your old lists in the past and wasn’t impressed at all. In retrospect it’s indeed possible (or rather is a fact) that I was a lousy helmsman with the deck in the beginning. Suppose it’s hard to not be, as it’s way more tricky to play then most decks.
I'll give your latest version of the deck a try :)

Phyrexian Arena looks like a great addition to the deck! I’ve only tested it in my rather traditional The Rock build and so far I’m extremely impressed with it verses Dark Confidant.

Wasn’t aware of Tragic Slip. A really cool and maybe usefull removal without a doubt. Can’t see a reason to play it though, unless your plain g/b. Regarding Dismember, I felt it was way too slow or extremely dangerous to take 2-4 damage in order to play it during the early game.

I like the idea to only run 3 LotV in this deck, due to the fact that it can mulligan hard (and often have to) without being punished like a lot of other decks. Doubt I’d come up with that idea myself.

Xantid Swarm must be splendid in some match ups. I actually bought one to try in the board, so I’ll give it a try. How has it performed in your deck?

[nelumbo]

Richard Cheese: Haha! Dora Rock is a really good name!

"Also "four little ******s"?? Jesus man, like I'm not embarrassed enough to say the deck name."
Haha! I think it's a rather funny name, unless there's someone around that (by obvious reasons, unless you know him/her could be offended) ;)

[Arianrhod]

Xantid has been performing quite well. I have a lot of random control decks and a High Tide in my local meta, so it's been quite an allstar at getting a piece of hate in vs High Tide or landing a bomb vs control.

I tend to agree regarding Slip, but it pays to be aware of stuff like that. It's much more of a toy for the G/B version with no splash.

RE Leylines: don't forget, too, that this deck is eminently capable of hardcasting the damn things. Between that, and the E.T.s, you don't -want- more than 3, I would say, let alone -need- the 4th. You might be able to safely trim to 2x, in fact.

I don't usually bring Chains in for Jace, because most monkeys sit there and +2 him all day errday. I do bring it in for Brainstorm IF Snapcaster is present (and/or Ponder), because those types of decks are usually built to rely completely on the CA granted through flashing back Brainstorm after Brainstorm after Brainstorm in conjunction with shuffles. Chains completely shuts them down. It's much more of a combo hate card than a control hate card, though. All Storm decks utilize 10-12 cantrips to set up and sculpt, which they have to do repeatedly vs us because of our disruption through Therapies (and in some cases Hymn). High Tide in particular gets demolished by it, because they MUST remove it before even trying to go off. Otherwise, Time Spiral reads 4UU: Untap 6 lands, mill 7 cards.

As far as the name goes, let's not use Dora. It brings to mind Dora(n) Rock, which is a completely different type of deck. Probably out only hope for a witty name is to come up with some clever name for the synergy between Explorer and Therapy, since that's the one synergy that ALL versions of this deck are built around, regardless of whatever else people run alongside it.

[Richard Cheese]

Bertoncini Rock?

Actually I still like Donner Party, and I don't think IBA's vampire deck with the same name ever went anywhere, so it should be available.

Could also just name it after any famous explorer...Sir Francis Drake and his minions?

I have to register this thing at a GPT coming up, if we can't figure out a good name I'm just going to put nonsense in there.

[Tao]

For the Burn matchup: (Like P Fire suggested by Rabrab):

Tree of Redemption should be the gamechanger people want. Gains 10+ life

[Koby]

With the White splash, running Aegis of Honor is within reason, provided there's a reliable way to find it. Zuran Orb too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually I still like Donner Party, and I don't think IBA's vampire deck with the same name ever went anywhere, so it should be available.

I can confirm this.

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

[Greenpoe]

Living Wish could work well as a 2-of or 3-of, it's just a GSZ that costs 1 more mana and can black creatures and creatures when you can't cast them until next turn. Slower than GSZ when you have tons of mana, but faster when you don't.

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think about a couple of Batterskulls without any SFM? Seems to me like it could replace Grave Titan quite beautifuly. It is near-indestructible once you are able to keep 3 mana open, and I think that's what matters the most. Batterskull in a deck with deck sweepers is somewhat similar to a Fleeting Image in a control deck, it never gets dealt with.

[Koby]

I would prefer Baneslayer Angel at the 5 mana mark.

[Tao]

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

Living Wish sounds honestly amazing. Never really considered it. GSZ is way stronger in a vacuum but in this Wish might just be better. The Wishboard would probably be like Genesis, Disenchant guy, Shriekmaw, 1-2 Yardhate guys (Ooze, Macabre, Bog), Lifegain guy (Tree of Redemption).

[.dk]

Living Wish sounds honestly amazing. Never really considered it. GSZ is way stronger in a vacuum but in this Wish might just be better. The Wishboard would probably be like Genesis, Disenchant guy, Shriekmaw, 1-2 Yardhate guys (Ooze, Macabre, Bog), Lifegain guy (Tree of Redemption).

another interesting thing about wish, is applications if grafdigger's cage ends up being played everywhere. cage turns off zenith, but not wish - the deck could still play a very effective game with cage out and living wish (or even just tutor for a disenchant dude or whatever).

[from Cairo]

Also you people should really cut GSZ for Living Wish, it lets you move a lot of shitty situational cards like Ooze and Finks and Grave Titan to the board, and lets you run more good cards as four ofs mainboard. Also lets you get Bojuka Bog/Karakas, I dunno what else. I was tinkering with this deck a bit but got discouraged recently. Although Grim Backwoods seems like it might be good.

I don't really think the situational cards are shitty. Cards like Scavenging Ooze and Thrun are usually just pretty solid. Kitchen Finks can be underwhelming, but can also come out in games 2 and 3. The titans are sort of slower to get out, but having them MD at least doesn't add 2 mana to the cost of getting them out. The GSZ package opens up Dryad Arbor for additional acceleration. Living Wish just seems too mana intensive/clunky in a deck that's already slow/very mana intensive. GSZ also encourages the deck to run optimal numbers of Veteran Explorer and Eternal Witness MD, while giving you an additional 4 copies when they're needed to the point they're worth their cost +1.

Green Sun's Zenith also has the perk of being shuffled back into the deck when it resolves, that combined with Explorer/Fetches increases the decks threat density as the game continues.

Grim Backwoods doesn't strike me as very good at all. By the time you hit 5 mana you've got better things to do than tap all of it to sac a Finks or Explorer to draw a card. It seems worse than Phyrexian Tower #2 and/or running a 1-of Volrath's Stronghold. I don't think the deck has room for more than a couple colorless mana sources unless it wants to start cutting into spell slots, and even then Grim Backwoods looks like a Jayemdae Tome, for 5 mana I'd rather be getting something like Skeletal Scrying or Garruk, Primal Hunter.

[Richard Cheese]

For all the cute stuff you can do with Wish here, I think it has a few major disadvantages over GSZ.

First, Spell Snare is everywhere. Second, if your bomb and utility creatures only exist in your board, you depend entirely on resolving wish, and some of those guys are most critical in the control matchup. Or, possibly worse, they just counter your bomb, and then you're pretty boned. Third, a lot of those utliity guys are just fine to draw into. Finally, it's like explorer 5-8.

[waSP]

Couldn't Wish complement GSZ. You run a bunch of 3-ofs main (the green creatures you REALLY want to resolve: Veteran Explorer, Scavenging Ooze, Thrun) with GSZ. You replace your bombs in the main with Living Wish. That doesn't sound too terrible...