[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

Casually 1-0 after starting the day with junk.

[Arianrhod]

Lost a very close match to the winner of the last columbus....riley curran with elves. I think I made a slight misplay with top that may have cost me, but I'm not sure. I had to kill progenitus twice in g3 :/...then stalled by flood and died to a 9/9 ooze.

[Arianrhod]

Beat dredge. 2-1.

[Megadeus]

Keep up the good stuff! Rough to lose to elves... Isnt that a decent MU?

[Arianrhod]

Beat junk 2-0. Now 3-1 on the day.

[Arianrhod]

Lost to sneak after bricking on five shuffles with an active top. Kept seeing literal three-land spins. Very frustrating. Even more so because I'm literally surrounded on all sides by fair decks, and I keep getting paired vs the one combo deck at my table.

[goblinsplayer]

Lost a very close match to the winner of the last columbus....riley curran with elves. I think I made a slight misplay with top that may have cost me, but I'm not sure. I had to kill progenitus twice in g3 :/...then stalled by flood and died to a 9/9 ooze.

There's something about you and elves

[Arianrhod]

Lost to bug delver after having the same thing happen. Stabilize. Top. Triple land. Shuffle. Top. Triple land. Etc etc. Seriously fuck this =/

Still in it for now....but I'm both near death (one more loss) and really, really tilted on the day.

[Arianrhod]

Textbook smashing of burn. 4-3.

[Barbed Blightning]

Textbook smashing of burn. 4-3.

Good luck w/ top 16!

[Arianrhod]

Ended 5-4 after losing to another dredge player. Beat burn in the last round. Pretty disappointing weekend :/

Hopefully next weekend goes better....jupiter + scg philly

[Siiig]

@Devin: Grats on your finish -- and glad you survived the "trial period," so to speak =)

Few thoughts --

Vs Janene, since you know she runs Geddons, I think that I would adopt the tactic of holding 1x green source in hand, even if it means missing your land drop. Like, unless slamming that green source will enable a Scapeshift kill that turn (that she can't break up with Wasteland), screw it. Having a redundant green source so that you can rebuild seems way more important.

Vs Omniclash, you mis-Slaughtered IMO. If you CAN Slaughter them (fuck Leyline, seriously), -always- name Omniscience. This is because their only out at this point is Show and Tell -> Emrakul. Literally. That's it. They can't Ant you, because they can't recast it over and over again (even with Dream Halls). Likewise, they can't Dream Halls their Emrakul, because "colorless" is not "a color." You can't just pitch a Petal or a land or something to Dream Halls Emrakul.

What are you running for your board, that you're able to run 3x Extirpate? Obviously the 4 REB / 2 Games split is just a tweak, but you had to cut 3 targets for the 3 Extirpates, and I'm very interested in your logic therein. Is it something just for locals because combo/dredge? Or have you not been missing whatever you cut enough that you would run it that way at something like a Jupiter or an SCG?

I also do want to try to incorporate Depths/Stage, but I'll be damned if I have any idea on how the fuck I'm going to find room for them. I suspect that the combo will end up being highly subpar for Scapewish, but I want to at least try it at a local and verify that with my own eyes.

Also, are you going to be at Jupiter this time? I noticed that you guys weren't at the last one.

I generally reply backwards to threads...

Yeah, I believe my whole crew will be at Jupiter this month. We've all been randomly busy, and it's hard to want to go if there's only 2 people going up haha.
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Stage/Depths, I have no idea. I just can't wait to shift for it on like... turn 2 with phyrexian tower--because fuck yeah all-in plays.
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My board...I should actually just go run to my car and grab my box... one sec...

3x REB, 3x Extirpate, 2x Slaughter Games, 1x Scapeshift, 1x Malestrom Pules, 1x Innocent Blood, 1x Reanimate, 1x Reverent Silence, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Damnation

When switching cards I used the mind set of "what do I need, what am I going to miss the most". I need to stuff a perish (wish I had a virtues ruin) back in, and I don't have a thoughtseize // have never REALLY wanted one. This might be why I lose to Esper 99%. My most wished for probably go something like... Scapeshift, Pyroclasm, Damnation, Reanimate, Innocent Blood...

Pulse could come out pretty safely from my perspective. That in mind, I didn't actually tune my REB/Slaughter games, I swapped a slaughter for Extirpate #1, then I don't have collective voyage or thoughtseize. I'll probably swap damnation for perish to match your list (as the teeg kill). It's not virtues ruin, but it's slightly closer. I would run my current list up at NELC, mainly out of not thinking about it. The extirpates should PROBABLY be something more combo-hatey. Thorn of amethyst? I Dunno LOL ¯\(°_o)/¯
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I'll take that point about omniclash to heart. Since I have to play it, I'll have to keep dealing with it.
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Agree 100% here. Generally when I play against her in particular I'm pretty drained. More practice will make more perfecter.

All this being said, Shift is currently in pieces so my GF can play Green Zombardment. It'll be back together for NELC though, just won't be able to play it =P GRIXIS AFFINITY HOOOOOOOO!

[CRich3]

I went to SCG Columbus, but I played BUG since I know half of the meta was going to be show and tell and storm. But I played against neither and went 5-4, should of stuck with Rector Fit. But I am thinking of going to SCG Philly, I was wondering if anyone has actually tried the Enlightened Tutor package for Rector in SB?

[plogan]

Ive tried the e tutor package in the board in the past and it was relatively inefficient, the extra access to bullets and batterskull is less desirable than the combo hate the typical board packs.

[Star|Scream]

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My board...I should actually just go run to my car and grab my box... one sec...


I chuckled because you could've completely omitted this part and we'd be none the wiser.

[Siiig]

I chuckled because you could've completely omitted this part and we'd be none the wiser.

But the fact that you chuckled made it worth the trip ^^;

[Arianrhod]

Alright, report time. I derped this morning and left my notes at home, so I won't have most player names and details might be sketchy. You should be able to get a rough feel for it though.

List was per my sig. Only changes I made were to replace Virtue's Ruin with Perish once again (I expected a higher than average elf turnout and wanted a 2nd sweeper that hit them), and I cut Thoughtseize in favor of the 4th REB (as I was worried about OmniTell, and I realized that I haven't actually used that Thoughtseize in months).

R1: Small child with Junk (he was actually in his teens, I'd guess).

Not sure if format guru-to-be or borrowing cards, as a lot of his deck was foiled. I kept a somewhat shaky opener with a Veteran, 4 lands, and both (!!) Thragtusks. I should note here that my scouting revealed a very, VERY heavy fair-deck presence. There were upwards of 4 Tezzerets, a pile of BUG and RUG, a bunch of Blade, some Miracles, a lot of Junky and Poxy decks, and so forth. By comparison, I saw like 2 storm, 1 Show and Tell, 2 Elves, and so forth. So, I biased my keep towards that conclusion.

Anyway, I deploy my Explorer, who eats a Swords. My opponent then Inquisitions me and facepalms, much to my amusement. He had Bob and Library going, I make some Tusks and shoot up to like 35+ life, and then eventually I draw a Wish to Scapeshift him out from his mid-20s (Batterskull + Jitte).

No board.

Game 2 we play the Liliana game back and forth for a while, but I make a bunch of monsters and then Shift him out. Nothing of note here -- pretty standard match vs Junk.

R2: Riley Curran with Elves.

I immediately recognize my opponent by name as having won the previous SCG Columbus with Elves. Oh, joy.

Game one I mull aggressively into a gorgeous hand of Explorer, Therapy, Deed, and the mana to play it all. If I'm ever going to beat Elves g1, it's with this. I Therapy, calling Glimpse, and brick -- he has a hand with a bunch of Elves, including Symbiote + Visionary, not no Glimpse and no NO. Deed happens and wraths away most of his elves while I ramp. He re-deploys a bunch of elves. I Wish for Pyroclasm and kill his elves. He's finally out of cards in hand by this point, and just has like 4-5 lands in play. A turn or two later, Shift happens.

I board in all three Slaughter Games, the Pulse, the Perish, and maybe one or two other things that I don't remember, at the expense of Primeval Titan, both Tusks, and some other stuff.

Game two I again mull looking for business, and don't find anything too exciting. I keep a workable hand with a Wish and a Deed, but no discard. He makes some elves, and turns one of them into a Progenitus on t3. I tank for a moment, and determine that my out is either A: ripping Perish like a god, or B: play Deed, get smacked for 10, Deed@1 to kill elves next turn, then Wish for Innocent Blood to get rid of Progenitus. Unfortunately I don't rip Perish, and he proceeds to NO AGAIN next turn to Hoof me out before I get a chance to kill the hydra. Oof.

Game three is stupid. I disrupt him a bit, but he still makes a Progenitus. I Top, brick, sac Tribe-Elder, Top, see Perish. Hallelujah. Perish it away. Next turn he NOs again, getting Progenitus again. Lovely. I Green Sun for Witness, then Perish again. It dies again. We're both out of cards, and I had to shuffle away my Top to get the Witness. I proceed to draw lands while he draws a Scavenging Ooze which grows to epic proportions and kills me. He was dead to a Wish or a Shift at any point....just couldn't get there. Sign of things to come ._.

Still a really, really good match, though. Props to Riley for getting 9th, although I'm sure there's some salt there too, because I think he just missed on breakers.

R3: Dredge.

My opponent opens up with Gemstone Mine -> Careful Study, binning two Grave-Trolls. OH JOY.

He does the thing that his deck does while I do the thing that my deck does. I end up in this incredibly awkward situation where he has a like 11/11 troll, and I'm at <9. He also has all 4 Ichorids (he can bring back 3), and like 3 or 4 zombie tokens. I have Scapeshift in hand, and 7 lands out, but he's at 20 still because fucking Gemstone Mine is not City of Brass. I could Shift to kill the Troll (the Mine was dead and he couldn't regen), but then I lose to tokens/Ichorids. I could play the Deed in my hand and wrath away his Ichorids and tokens, but then the Troll kills me. Etc. I was one land short of both survival and/or winning. Very frustrating.

Brought in my Slaughter Games, took out Titan, one Tusk, and I think a Top. I agonized about whether or bring in the REBs or not (Breakthrough, Study, Narcomoeba), but elected to leave them out because I didn't have anything really to cut for them. Once M14 rules are out, I might bring a couple in and just not board anything out for them.

Game two my opponent mulls aggressively to find action. Tribe-Elder does the thing that it does against Dredge. I had a combo-y/race-y hand, and killed him before he could do much of anything.

Game three I Slaughter out his Ichorids followed by his Dread Returns, and that's pretty much that.

R4: Junnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnk

He may have actually been Dark Maverick, I'm not sure. He had multiple Pridemages g1, but he also had like Bobs and Goyfs and shit, so I dunno. Either way, he was a deck that doesn't have sufficient pressure or disruption to stop me from doing my thing, and I quickly introduced him to angry mountains both games.

R5: Sneak

And now the wheels fall off. I assessed my opponent as we sat down, and I decided that he was on a fair deck. He looked like a RUG player or a Blade player, so I went with that gut read and kept a beautiful hand for vs anything that is not trying to do something unfair. It had like double Explorer, Tribe-Elder, some lands, a Top, and a Deed. My opponent goes Island, Ponder, and I twitch. Could still be Stoneblade. They like to run a 1-of Ponder.

Next turn he goes Island, Ponder.

Fuck.

I ramp up as best I can, but can't find anything disruptive even with a Top + shuffles. I also can't find a Scpaeshift to just kill him. He eventually Shows me His Noodly Appendage. I tank the hit, because Explorer in play is hilarious vs Emrakul. I drop the 5, but still have enough lands in play to kill him if I draw a Wish or a Shift. Tops gets me one card deeper....it's a land.

I board in the REBs and all 3 Games, as per my new boarding strategy vs SnT (expect Leyline, so board in all copies of Games so that you can Prime Wish for Rev Silence). All 3 Deeds came out....don't recall for the rest of the slots. 1 Tusk, likely, then I dunno.

G2 I keep an opener of Therapy, double Explorer, Wish, REB, and two lands. He agonizes over his hand, but ends up keeping and shows me a t0 Leyline. This makes my hand worse, but still tenable. I deploy an Explorer and ship it. He drops a Lotus Petal and cracks it to Ponder. One of THOSE hands. He hits land, and fires off another cantrip. I contemplate Wishing for Silence while he's tapped out, but I decide that I'd rather have the ability to protect the Silence with REB, so I sandbag it for a turn and play a Top that I drew (and then spin EoT). He does something inconsequential and passes back. I Wish, and he allows it to resolve. I get and cast Silence. He attempts to Pierce it. I tank, and decide that it is actually worth fighting over. I thought about sandbagging the REB and trying to hit a follow-up Show and Tell, but opt to gamble and make my Therapy live again. The Leyline dies, and he passes back to me. I Therapy calling Griselbrand IIRC, and brick, seeing I think an Emrakul, a Sneak, and garbage. Flashback takes the Sneak. He stalls out while I Top into like 2 lands and a Tribe Elder. I take the Elder, shuffle, and Top: 2 lands and a Wood Elves. I take the Wood Elves, and Top. 2 lands and another Wood Elves. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. Meanwhile, my opponent finds a Show and Tell finally, and makes a monster. I've deployed my 2nd Explorer from long ago by now, and use the annihilator trigger as another shuffle, leaving me with like 9 lands and a Top in play. I spin. 3 lands. Draw for turn. 3rd card down is a land. I feel like throwing my deck.

R6: BUG Delver.

Still X-2, which is still live for top 32 -- which, incidentally, is what I need to qualify for the Invitational. So I'm still fine. Slightly tilted because lands, but I'm pretty good at not letting tilt get to me. Every game is a new one, and so forth.

My opponent opens Sea->Deathrite. Oh my god BUG, finally. [Note: I haven't played against Shardless, Stoneblade, or Deathblade in 18 rounds of SCG tournament magic in the past two opens).

Well, it turns out that he isn't Shardless at all, as he Dazes my Zenith@1. He then proceeds to Hymn me, then Hymn me again, then drop a Goyf and another Shaman. I'm off the Top since long ago, and am facing down lethal from a 3/4 Goyf and a pair of Shamans (I'm at 10). I realized that I can buy myself another turn by Wishing for Innocent Blood, making him get rid of a Shaman. That gets me another Top spin....which shows me triple land. OH WE'RE DOING THIS AGAIN.

I bring in REBs in exchange for Titan and other miscellanea. Titan wins if he sticks here, but I'd rather lower my curve, and if I'm Zenithing, I want Tusk or Hunts more than Titan here. Bad day for Titan, lol.

I keep an acceptable opener that has like Top, Deed, and some other goodies, but no Explorer. He opens with a Delver. It flips off of a Ponder, and then he Hymns me. I attempt to Wish (Innocent Blood), which gets Forced (pitching the Ponder). He drops a Goyf and another Delver. I REB the flipped Delver mainphase, and then his other Delver fails to flip. He continues to smack me. I attempt to make a Tusk, which gets DAZED [note: full life tilt. Who the fuck keeps Daze in, ON THE DRAW, AGAINST NIC FIT]. I Top into another Deed + 2 lands, and wrath away his dudes. He plays more dudes. I drop a Huntmaster (still seeing 2 lands). He Decays the token, which forces me to chump his Goyf with the 'Master. I Top: 3 lands.

I'm basically ready to table flip by this point, but I force myself to remain calm and am as civil as I can possibly be.

R7: Burn.

I knew sitting down that this guy was on burn, because my friend had just beat him last round sitting next to me.

This was a pretty textbook spanking of burn -- and I never even saw a Tusk, and only one Huntmaster. I just ramped and disrupted him with Therapy periodically, then checked with Therapy to make sure he didn't have a Price, then killed him. Both games.

R8: Dredge...again.

This guy's list was worse for me. It was once again Mana Dredge, but it was running Flayer of the Hatebound. That means that I have to shift my priorities with Slaughter Games, hitting his Dread Returns instead of his Ichorids first. Game one he had double LED. I hit a bridge with a Tribe-Elder, but he Faithless'd off and made a sufficiently large board that I couldn't do much to him.

Game two he has a Colisseum hand and is ready to orgasm his deck onto the table, so I have to Slaughter away his Dread Returns before he instagibs me, which leads to me dying to Ichorids. Fun fact: early in the game he Therapied me to take away my Tribe-Elder because that card is hilariously dredge hate. I died at 6 lands, with the Shift in hand. Turns out I really needed that Tribe-Elder ._____.

R9: Burn...again.

WANT TO BUY REAL DECKS. PST.

This guy gets me game one with exactsies the turn before death, and the other two games are very close as well. He was a fan of not attacking into my Veteran, but rather burning it EoT so as to make me stumble on mana and then untap and unload on me. From the burn perspective I'm not sure if this is good or not. I want to say that he was wasting a spell on my Explorer needlessly, but I can see him wanting to slow down my development to try to stutter me out of Huntmasters/Tusks/etc. Either way, I shifted him out both game 2 and game 3. Game 3 was actually so close on time before death that I couldn't use the Slaughter Games in my hand before I had to Shift. I like to Slaughter out their Price of Progresses so that Shift is guaranteed live. He had one card in hand, but I was staring death in the face next turn, and I had to just go for it. Pretty scary.

So, I ended the day 5-4, in 73rd place, after a very disappointing run.

Just as a recap, my matchups:

2 Junk, 2 Dredge, 2 Burn, 1 Sneak, 1 Elves, 1 BUG Delver.

It is incredibly hard to survive a day like that without tilting as you look to your left and right EVERY ROUND and see a literal sea of Shardless and Blade. But, the fates decree that you have to be the unlucky guy that gets paired vs the one combo player per table. More upsetting than my matchups, though, was that my deck was STILL fine....it just dug in its heels and stubbornly refused to work.

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Going forward, I'm definitely cutting the 4th REB. 4 was way too many....3 is the correct number for that card, at least for us. 3 is enough that you will see on average 1.5 per game, which is the frequency we want. I'm also thinking about cutting the Reanimate. Liliana of the Veil is actually somewhat lesser in presence right now, and I've generally learned how to play against her a bit better, so I need Reanimate less there. Cutting Reanimate means I'm just throwing away the Reanimator matchup, but that's bad enough in the first place that it's probably not fixable by virtue of having that slot. It also makes my Sneak matchup marginally worse. Reanimate has been randomly useful, and has won me a lot of games through the dumbest shit (Reanimate a Tribe-Elder to get a basic Forest while under Blood Moon, anyone?). Still, I think that it is the weakest link currently in my wishboard, and I want a 2nd sideboard slot so that I can board a pair of something and have a reasonable chance of seeing it.

I THINK that that something is going to be Golgari Charm. I can't think of any other sideboard option in Jund-colors that hits Elves, Sneak, and Omni with the same efficacy. Having 2 Charms boarded in should help vs Leyline of Sanctity-fueled combo, can hit Omni in response to Enter the Infinite, kill can Sneak Attacks that are left in play, can wrath Elves, etc.

Elves is definitely the thing that I want to shore up the most. I'm tired of getting within a hairs' breadth of beating that deck and then coming up short. Having something that's flexible enough to be brought in vs other combo decks is relevant, though.

Oh. One more thing for the "report post:" Everyone should consider revising their mental Therapy priority lists vs Elves. Between playing vs Ross Merriam and Riley Curran, I realized that Elves players are keeping Glimpse-less hands more and more often now. They're going for the NO plan much more...especially post-board. I actually think that it's more likely to hit a NO blind out of Elves than a Glimpse nowadays, with the advent of Hoof. It makes sense, really -- why Glimpse off (especially vs the Deed/Pyroclasm deck) and HOPE to hit your wincon, when you can instead just make a Progenitals or Hoof someone out. So yeah. Definitely going to be calling Natural Order over Glimpse now.

[Arianrhod]

I went to SCG Columbus, but I played BUG since I know half of the meta was going to be show and tell and storm. But I played against neither and went 5-4, should of stuck with Rector Fit. But I am thinking of going to SCG Philly, I was wondering if anyone has actually tried the Enlightened Tutor package for Rector in SB?

You totally should have tracked me down and said hello. If you do end up going to Philly, I expect you to find me D:


Ive tried the e tutor package in the board in the past and it was relatively inefficient, the extra access to bullets and batterskull is less desirable than the combo hate the typical board packs.

I had the exact opposite experience with it. My sideboard in my sig is a little out of date....okay, a lot out of date, but in my experience having the extra means to grab your hate cards while also having the added stability vs grindy fair decks was critical. I mean, you still need Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Traps, and you still need your Nether Void (incidentally, Void is SO GOOD right now. Fuck you, Omniscience). But being able to actually grab legit hate cards like Canonist, Chalice@0 (vs storm), and so on was good. I would 100% run that Batterskull btw even without ETs. Like, just as a 1-of to hit mid-late game vs like Deathblade or some such. It does wonders for that matchup.

I think that were I to play Rector for Philly, my sideboard would look like the following:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Batterskull
1 Nether Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide

Chalice of the Void is less good because Storm is more out of favor right now than it has been for a while. The combo du jour is OmniTell now -- same reason for the cutting of Humility. I expect less Sneak and more Omni. The metagame overall should resemble Baltimore's meta from two weeks ago, since the two are geographically comparable. That means a lot of Shardless and Blade still, with a couple of Elves and a significant OmniTell presence. While there isn't much that you can do about it in Rector, I would also expect a rise in the popularity of MUD. People are starting to figure out that MUD STOMPS OmniTell, hard. Trinisphere is a hell of a drug.

I could see arguments for replacing the Mindbreak Traps with other hate options, like putting the Humility back in, along with maybe like a 2-of something else. I dunno.


I generally reply backwards to threads...

Yeah, I believe my whole crew will be at Jupiter this month. We've all been randomly busy, and it's hard to want to go if there's only 2 people going up haha.
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Stage/Depths, I have no idea. I just can't wait to shift for it on like... turn 2 with phyrexian tower--because fuck yeah all-in plays.
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My board...I should actually just go run to my car and grab my box... one sec...

3x REB, 3x Extirpate, 2x Slaughter Games, 1x Scapeshift, 1x Malestrom Pules, 1x Innocent Blood, 1x Reanimate, 1x Reverent Silence, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Damnation

When switching cards I used the mind set of "what do I need, what am I going to miss the most". I need to stuff a perish (wish I had a virtues ruin) back in, and I don't have a thoughtseize // have never REALLY wanted one. This might be why I lose to Esper 99%. My most wished for probably go something like... Scapeshift, Pyroclasm, Damnation, Reanimate, Innocent Blood...

Pulse could come out pretty safely from my perspective. That in mind, I didn't actually tune my REB/Slaughter games, I swapped a slaughter for Extirpate #1, then I don't have collective voyage or thoughtseize. I'll probably swap damnation for perish to match your list (as the teeg kill). It's not virtues ruin, but it's slightly closer. I would run my current list up at NELC, mainly out of not thinking about it. The extirpates should PROBABLY be something more combo-hatey. Thorn of amethyst? I Dunno LOL ¯\(°_o)/¯
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I'll take that point about omniclash to heart. Since I have to play it, I'll have to keep dealing with it.
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Agree 100% here. Generally when I play against her in particular I'm pretty drained. More practice will make more perfecter.

All this being said, Shift is currently in pieces so my GF can play Green Zombardment. It'll be back together for NELC though, just won't be able to play it =P GRIXIS AFFINITY HOOOOOOOO!

Don't bother with the Thoughtseize. I didn't miss it in the slightest. I would also not cut Pulse for anything. There's way too many times when you need a Wishable answer to [something annoying].

[Qweerios]

I believe someone asked for updates on BUG Nic Fit lately so I took it for a spin after a long rest. My list hasn't changed in the past couple months and it has been giving me good results, I just don't play it as much as I used to. The results from my last event are the following:

2-1 12-Post
2-0 UWr Miracle
2-0 RUG Tempo
2-1 OmniShow

Note that when I last played it, Enter the Infinite wasn't a deck yet. Here is my current BUG Fit list:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dust Bowl
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Islands

Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Negate
4 Force of Will


Beating 12-Post post-board isn't that hard actually. All you have to do is race to Primeval Titan and counter their own Titan/Negate their ramp, then Dust Bowl will take them down. Miracle decks are a walk in the park with counterspells because they generally pack less counters than us and Counterbalance is worthless. Aggro decks are favorable as usual at the exception of Elves where Decay/Deed tend to be too slow.

[MrIggins]

Arianrhod, looking at your latest Scapewish sideboard, I'm wondering about Reverent Silence. Is it simply to be able to wish for it on turn 2 and hit an Omni that somehow didn't kill you, or is there something else behind it that makes it worth including alongside Maelstrom Pulse?

I'm also noticing Damnation's absence, which is understandable since Pyroclasm is usually enough and when it isn't, Innocent Blood will usually do the job. Perish vs Virtue's Ruin is obviously a metagame choice somewhat, but I assume you have Virtue's Ruin as a better choice against the field in general. I can see arguments for either and I wonder if you could explain why a little bit.

Thanks! Looking forward to seeing you and hopefully some others at Jupiter on Saturday. Sorry about the bad beats with Top, that sounds really infuriating and I'm impressed that you were able to keep yourself civil.

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, looking at your latest Scapewish sideboard, I'm wondering about Reverent Silence. Is it simply to be able to wish for it on turn 2 and hit an Omni that somehow didn't kill you, or is there something else behind it that makes it worth including alongside Maelstrom Pulse?

I'm also noticing Damnation's absence, which is understandable since Pyroclasm is usually enough and when it isn't, Innocent Blood will usually do the job. Perish vs Virtue's Ruin is obviously a metagame choice somewhat, but I assume you have Virtue's Ruin as a better choice against the field in general. I can see arguments for either and I wonder if you could explain why a little bit.

Thanks! Looking forward to seeing you and hopefully some others at Jupiter on Saturday. Sorry about the bad beats with Top, that sounds really infuriating and I'm impressed that you were able to keep yourself civil.

Reverent Silence is specifically and explicitly for Leyline of Sanctity. While generally not necessary vs fair decks that board Leylines, it is 100% critical vs Leyline-powered combo decks, specifically OmniTell and Sneak/Show, as the two most common examples. If they drop Leyline, we can't Therapy them and we can't Slaughter Games them, which removes our entire axis of interaction...then they just kill us.

I generally opt for Virtue's Ruin in most unknown/large metagames. The last few events, though, I've been getting knocked out by Elves at really inopportune points in the day, so I consciously made the switch to Perish so that I have another card against them. Once my ass is done being sore about Elves / if my changed Therapy priority makes the difference, it'll go back to being Virtue's Ruin, as I believe that Ruin hits a wider range of cards. I mean I guess Perish hits like Deathrite and Goyf...but we shouldn't be struggling there anyway, whereas Death and Taxes can randomly be challenging depending on their hand and our mana development.

I will definitely be at Jupiter, so I'll see you then.

[Megadeus]

@Qweerios BUG List. Why 4x Gitaxian Probes? Im highly confused.

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios BUG List. Why 4x Gitaxian Probes? Im highly confused.

Probe is nucking futs with Therapy.

[Megadeus]

Of course! Hahaha after playing TES I should know this... Is the blue splash really worth it for Jaces and Braistorms though? It just seems like any other splash color could give you better options.

[Star|Scream]

Well the blue splash gives you access to Force of Will and Negate in the sideboard against unfair decks.

[gregtron]

Probe is nucking futs with Therapy.

Yes, yes it absolutely is. I refuse to play storm without both of those cards, because probe/therapy is the only thing that's more demeaning to your opponent than a lethal Grapeshot.

[Arianrhod]

Of course! Hahaha after playing TES I should know this... Is the blue splash really worth it for Jaces and Braistorms though? It just seems like any other splash color could give you better options.


Well the blue splash gives you access to Force of Will and Negate in the sideboard against unfair decks.

/barn.

Also, Jace backed up by Pernicious Deed is nothing to sneeze at. IMO the reason to go blue in Nic Fit is Jace, Force, and Negate. You get a few possible fringe benefits like Coiling Oracle, Consecrated Sphinx, and so forth...but they aren't enough of a reason to consider blue. I've made my stance on Brainstorm abundantly clear, and am not bringing that back up again. Don't listen to me when it comes to blue versions, though...I've never really gotten one to work well enough for my opinion to be taken credibly.

Some of that is probably because I would personally rather shit on the blue decks as opposed to join them.

[Tao]

Gitaxian Probe. I thought about it and never tried it because I thought the synergy was not worth the reduced card quality (trade spell for random card). I was very wrong I think. Made only a few test games so far but it was amazing. Having Therpay+Probe feels good. It even counts as a blue card for Force of Will. Also more cantrips = more Explorer Therapy starts and if they are fueled by Probe they get even better.

[Tao]

I believe someone asked for updates on BUG Nic Fit lately so I took it for a spin after a long rest. My list hasn't changed in the past couple months and it has been giving me good results, I just don't play it as much as I used to. The results from my last event are the following:

2-1 12-Post
2-0 UWr Miracle
2-0 RUG Tempo
2-1 OmniShow

Note that when I last played it, Enter the Infinite wasn't a deck yet. Here is my current BUG Fit list:


Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dust Bowl
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Islands

Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Negate
4 Force of Will


Beating 12-Post post-board isn't that hard actually. All you have to do is race to Primeval Titan and counter their own Titan/Negate their ramp, then Dust Bowl will take them down. Miracle decks are a walk in the park with counterspells because they generally pack less counters than us and Counterbalance is worthless. Aggro decks are favorable as usual at the exception of Elves where Decay/Deed tend to be too slow.


That looks really good.
MD
- I think would play 4 Jace TMS. He is the centerpiece of the deck and having multiples isn't all that bad because the Jace in play can shuffle superfluous copies away. Or turn it with the new rules into a Brainstorm.

Lands
- With 4 Probes you can safely go down to 22 lands.
- Has Stronghold been any good for you? Is there a particular matchup in which you want it?

SB
- I like to have 2 Damnations in the SB to combat D&T. Mother of Runes in combination with Revoker is a bitch. Damnation is also very useful against RUG, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Dragon Stompy and random Aggro. I also wouldn't go without Carpet of Flowers. All Top5 decks of May were Island based (Team America, RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracle) and Carpet is great against all five of them.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

Hello nic fitters, I have some questions about a few things. I'll be getting the deck soon (the junk version since I have the duals for it) and I was wondering how good a few cards are. The first is yavimaya elder, and the second is vraska the unseen. Oh, and Gerrard's verdict over hymn since double black is harder to get in junk. Are any of these playable? Is tribe elder just better than the elder? I was also wondering if it is possible to play big garruk, primal hunter in junk. I've only really seen him played in B/G because the triple green, but is it really so much of a stretch to cast? Here's my list, I could use some suggestions since I'm new to the deck. Am I going too heavy on the 5-7 drops?

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Angel of Despair

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Gerrard's Verdict

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

Any answers would be appreciated, I know I asked a lot of questions.

[goblinsplayer]

/barn.



Some of that is probably because I would personally rather shit on the blue decks as opposed to join them.

+1

[Qweerios]

That looks really good.
MD
- I think would play 4 Jace TMS. He is the centerpiece of the deck and having multiples isn't all that bad because the Jace in play can shuffle superfluous copies away. Or turn it with the new rules into a Brainstorm.

Lands
- With 4 Probes you can safely go down to 22 lands.
- Has Stronghold been any good for you? Is there a particular matchup in which you want it?

SB
- I like to have 2 Damnations in the SB to combat D&T. Mother of Runes in combination with Revoker is a bitch. Damnation is also very useful against RUG, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Dragon Stompy and random Aggro. I also wouldn't go without Carpet of Flowers. All Top5 decks of May were Island based (Team America, RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracle) and Carpet is great against all five of them.

The reason why I don't play 4 copies of Jace is because it is bad in multiples when you haven't reached 4 mana. Finding 3 copies is not an issue, and he isn't my main win condition. Having 4 Jace is fine when he is at the top of your curve and essential to your gameplan. As it is now, he is a great source of CA and a great alternate win con but that's about it.

As for the lands, I have as many colored sources as I always had in any Nic Fit deck. I play 23 lands because 3 of them are colorless.

Stronghold has been my main source of attrition in all of my successful Nic Fit decks. GSZ@6 for Prime Time grants you Tower + Stronghold which allows you to convert your draw step into a Thragtusk or a Witness per turn.

As for Damnation and Carpet in the SB, I dismissed them both a long time ago for a very simple reason:

there is nothing already in the mainboard that isn't good against fair decks. The mainboard of Nic Fit is and should always be 100% dedicated to fair matchups because trying to fit in reliable hate for combo is a bit like trying to fit 20 blue cards in Elves to support FoW, it sucks. I only get 15 slots to combat combo and I want to use them all. I remember that whenever I would land a Carpet vs. a blue deck, it was rewarding and fun, and then I realized that you really don't need it to dominate them, and that they quickly become dead cards. To me, Carpet is a textbook example of a win-more card.

Play damnation if active mother + revoker is a common thing in your meta, otherwise, take the game loss, they earned it...

[mistercakes]

The reason why I don't play 4 copies of Jace is because it is bad in multiples when you haven't reached 4 mana. Finding 3 copies is not an issue, and he isn't my main win condition. Having 4 Jace is fine when he is at the top of your curve and essential to your gameplan. As it is now, he is a great source of CA and a great alternate win con but that's about it.

As for the lands, I have as many colored sources as I always had in any Nic Fit deck. I play 23 lands because 3 of them are colorless.

Stronghold has been my main source of attrition in all of my successful Nic Fit decks. GSZ@6 for Prime Time grants you Tower + Stronghold which allows you to convert your draw step into a Thragtusk or a Witness per turn.

As for Damnation and Carpet in the SB, I dismissed them both a long time ago for a very simple reason:

there is nothing already in the mainboard that isn't good against fair decks. The mainboard of Nic Fit is and should always be 100% dedicated to fair matchups because trying to fit in reliable hate for combo is a bit like trying to fit 20 blue cards in Elves to support FoW, it sucks. I only get 15 slots to combat combo and I want to use them all. I remember that whenever I would land a Carpet vs. a blue deck, it was rewarding and fun, and then I realized that you really don't need it to dominate them, and that they quickly become dead cards. To me, Carpet is a textbook example of a win-more card.

Play damnation if active mother + revoker is a common thing in your meta, otherwise, take the game loss, they earned it...

massacre is also an option vs white, and you can use it to kill off your veteran explorers as well early in the game.

[Tao]

As for Damnation and Carpet in the SB, I dismissed them both a long time ago for a very simple reason:

there is nothing already in the mainboard that isn't good against fair decks. The mainboard of Nic Fit is and should always be 100% dedicated to fair matchups because trying to fit in reliable hate for combo is a bit like trying to fit 20 blue cards in Elves to support FoW, it sucks. I only get 15 slots to combat combo and I want to use them all. I remember that whenever I would land a Carpet vs. a blue deck, it was rewarding and fun, and then I realized that you really don't need it to dominate them, and that they quickly become dead cards. To me, Carpet is a textbook example of a win-more card.

Play damnation if active mother + revoker is a common thing in your meta, otherwise, take the game loss, they earned it...

In general I think that a heavy anti-combo SB supported with a few slots dedicated to the decks you are most likely going to face is the way to go. Don't fall into the trap of "anti combo tunnel vision". There is nothing wrong with improving fair matchups with a few effective cards if you most likely have to play that matchup multiple times a day.

Blue decks (Carpet): RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracles, Team America
creature decks (Damnation): RUG, Team America, D&T, Maverick, Tribal aggro, other random Aggro (Dragon Stompy, Zoo)


Carpet of Flowers:

against Miracles/Stoneblade:
- Explorers are quite bad against Stoneblade and Miracles. They play as much Brainstorm/Jace as we so if one side decided to dedicate a card to ramp both players the outcome is not always favorable for that deck. Having one Explorer for GSZ is enough for spell heavy hands. I like the + 3 Carpet - 3 Explorer switch here so you have the same amount of extra Mana in the deck to cast Titan but without the drawback of ramping them into Jace, giant Entreat the Angels, Karakas/Clique and doing whatever they want with Snapcaster.
- You don't need 4 Decay and 4 Deed against them.
- Scavenging Ooze is bad, too.

against RUG / Team America:
- Primeval Titan, second Witness and Dust Bowl seem useless
- you are happy about any additional colored Mana source in the SB

against BUG Control:
- the matchup is very hard because they have so much CA so any help from the SB is good


Damnation:
Isn't Death and Taxes a thing everywhere? Regular Top16 in SCG as well as double top8 in Euro GPs. And they all play 4 Mother of Runes and 4 Phyrexian Revoker. It also fixes the deck's weakness against Tombstalker. Your list has only three outs against a resolved Tombstalker (Jace) and that is only temporary. Jace+Therapy can work but it is quite hard to pull off against the 4 Hymn deck.

[Arianrhod]

Hello nic fitters, I have some questions about a few things. I'll be getting the deck soon (the junk version since I have the duals for it) and I was wondering how good a few cards are. The first is yavimaya elder, and the second is vraska the unseen. Oh, and Gerrard's verdict over hymn since double black is harder to get in junk. Are any of these playable? Is tribe elder just better than the elder? I was also wondering if it is possible to play big garruk, primal hunter in junk. I've only really seen him played in B/G because the triple green, but is it really so much of a stretch to cast? Here's my list, I could use some suggestions since I'm new to the deck. Am I going too heavy on the 5-7 drops?

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Angel of Despair

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Gerrard's Verdict

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

Any answers would be appreciated, I know I asked a lot of questions.

Quick summary --

-) 5-drops are fine in larger quantities. You can get away with 4+ 5s. I wouldn't run more than a pair of 6s-and-ups, though. So like, 2 titans, 1 titan and 1 7-drop, etc.

-) Sakura-Tribe is WAY better than Yavimaya. STE is a 2-drop and it ramps instantly, whereas Yavimaya just puts the lands in your hand (doesn't actually ramp) and takes a turn to get sacrificed, assuming it doesn't eat a Swords on sight. Also, STE is random dredge hate.

-) Vraska is genuinely atrocious. Assume that she has her +1 ability in place as a piece of cardboard, and don't touch her.

-) Gerrard's Verdict is playable, but I don't think that it's worth running more than something like Thoughtseize. Sculpting their hand is a better course of action.

-) Big Garruk is fine to play in Junk, you just need to be careful with what colors you get.


In general I think that a heavy anti-combo SB supported with a few slots dedicated to the decks you are most likely going to face is the way to go. Don't fall into the trap of "anti combo tunnel vision". There is nothing wrong with improving fair matchups with a few effective cards if you most likely have to play that matchup multiple times a day.

Blue decks (Carpet): RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracles, Team America
creature decks (Damnation): RUG, Team America, D&T, Maverick, Tribal aggro, other random Aggro (Dragon Stompy, Zoo)


Carpet of Flowers:

against Miracles/Stoneblade:
- Explorers are quite bad against Stoneblade and Miracles. They play as much Brainstorm/Jace as we so if one side decided to dedicate a card to ramp both players the outcome is not always favorable for that deck. Having one Explorer for GSZ is enough for spell heavy hands. I like the + 3 Carpet - 3 Explorer switch here so you have the same amount of extra Mana in the deck to cast Titan but without the drawback of ramping them into Jace, giant Entreat the Angels, Karakas/Clique and doing whatever they want with Snapcaster.
- You don't need 4 Decay and 4 Deed against them.
- Scavenging Ooze is bad, too.

against RUG / Team America:
- Primeval Titan, second Witness and Dust Bowl seem useless
- you are happy about any additional colored Mana source in the SB

against BUG Control:
- the matchup is very hard because they have so much CA so any help from the SB is good


Damnation:
Isn't Death and Taxes a thing everywhere? Regular Top16 in SCG as well as double top8 in Euro GPs. And they all play 4 Mother of Runes and 4 Phyrexian Revoker. It also fixes the deck's weakness against Tombstalker. Your list has only three outs against a resolved Tombstalker (Jace) and that is only temporary. Jace+Therapy can work but it is quite hard to pull off against the 4 Hymn deck.

I'd echo Tao's thoughts on Carpet here, and also note that you can use the Carpet mana during your turn to play creatures/sorceries, and then hold up your lands for countermagic. Likewise, if you want to run the more "powerful/slow" hate cards, like Cranial Extraction, it ramps you up to them before the opposing combo deck can really get online most of the time.

Damnation is solid against Elves, aside from shoring up other matchups. I agree that it isn't really necessary, though -- now, if suddenly the Maverick or DnT players in your area start figuring out how to play the matchup, then maybe. For other people who would want to work on your list for their metas (Tao), then almost assuredly. But from what I've heard of your meta specifically, I'd agree that Damnation isn't needed.

[Qweerios]

"Blue decks (Carpet): RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracles, Team America
creature decks (Damnation): RUG, Team America, D&T, Maverick, Tribal aggro, other random Aggro (Dragon Stompy, Zoo)"


I don't understand why you two are so obsessed with ramping against blue decks.

-RUG is a bye, and EtI/Sneak Show aren't, even with 15 SB slots dedicated to them so lets move on from there and agree this is a non-argument.

-BUG Control doesn't always have basics and the games go long at which point you both make all your land drops and reach whatever state of mana you desire. Exploding with a Carpet is a worthless gamble because without it, the deck is all fuel and disruption that outmatches theirs. The only control deck that should make you consider bringing in more than Negate and FoW is 12-Post, and that deck is fairly rare. You don't need ramp against control because you are the bigger control deck, always.
(FYI, I hope it is assumed here that the deck goes -3 Explorers, -4 Deed/Decay for most control matchups and that Negates/FoW come in)

-Blade decks are a joke. Deal with Batterskull and counter Jace and there you have it. Once again, you are the bigger control deck, so don't even bother with ramp. Be satisfied with 1 land per turn, it will get you there... like 99% of the time.

-Miracles... Miracles!? This matchup is a joke with 8 counterspells post board. They. Cannot. Kill. Us. Keep your Deeds for entreat and CB, keep your Decays for CB, bring in the counters and Jace them out or land a Prime for both towers and loop tusks until they concede.

-Team America can be tough because of their heavy disruption (FoW, Hymn) and their fliers (Delver, Tombstalker). I agree that when the tempo matchup can ignore explorer, an alternate source of ramp can be necessary. However, look at the amount of combo decks out there, then play all of them 10 times each with the best anti-combo SB you can think of. First you'll question Nic Fit as a deck choice against a combo meta, and then you might realize that these matchups are so difficult compared to the rest of the fair field that you want as much hate as you can get.

As for Damnation, I would personally take Engineered Plague over it but that's beside the point. The deck is built for aggro and aggro is favorable no matter how you choose to put it. 2 Damnations and 3 Carpets in my SB leaves me 10 slots to deal with GY based combo, Storm based combos, SnT decks (Sneak, Omni, EtI), and all the other miscellaneous unfair decks...

Tell me sincerely, how many games against Maverick, RUG, Team America, Zoo, Tribal, DnT... because you didn't have Damnation and/or Carpet?
How many games have you lost to combo because you didn't have enough hate?

My guess is that if you think the first one occurs enough to be significant compared to the second, you haven't played enough.

[Tao]

Why am I so obsessed with improving the matchup against other blue decks? Take a look at the top 5 Legacy decks. Having an insane card against the top 5 most popular decks of the format sounds pretty good.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection&p=731464&viewfull=1#post731464



My guess is that if you think the first one occurs enough to be significant compared to the second, you haven't played enough.

Maybe it is you who has not played enough if you consider RUG a bye and Miracles/Blade a joke. RUG is favorable but no bye, especially for the blue version. They have two ways to win. Either their ridiculous double Stifle + flipped Delver + Daze and the last two hand cards FoW + blue card draw. Or punishing you if you have to keep a mediocre hand. In both cases Carpet does amazing work. It can beat even the most ridiculous draws of RUG (or at least draw the FoW on turn 1) and it can turn your bad draws into good ones.

Games against Stoneblade and Miracles are a hard fight on pretty even footing. At least in my experience. Nic Fit is not actually that much bigger than them. What "big" do we have? 3-4 Jaces (they too), a Thrun and a Titan. That is certainly not enough bigger than them to just sit back and Abrupt Decay their stuff while they create CA with Snapcasters, Stoneforge Mystics or shape their hand with Sensei's Top.
The player who gets ahead usually wins and Carpet does just that. It fuels your GSZ's to have a Titan instead of a Witness, it lets you have a Jace before they do and it makes your Witnesses insane.

[Qweerios]

I am pretty sure nothing but Decay resolves against those double daze/delver/fow/stifle and whatever else god hand they get, not even carpet. This is why RUG and BUG tempo decks are top tier decks.

I will admit that saying RUG is a bye was an exaggeration, but I assumed it was understood that beating RUG didn't require any help from the SB. IMO, Nic Fit has one of the best matchups against RUG.

What is so "Big" that we have against stoneblade and miracles? Considering that there are 8 cards that allow us to see their hand and potentially rip it apart, that we can play around soft counters like Spell Pierce, that Spell Snare is irrelevant, that Counterbalance is mediocre against 4 Deeds, 4 Decays, and such a plastic curve, that we have 8 hard counters post-board, that GSZ immediately converts into the best card in our GY or the best creature we can afford for the current state of the game, that we have a nearly unstoppable attrition engine... These matchups boil down to Jace wars, except that we have a good chance of fighting through a Jace while they have none.

Oh ya, Snapcaster doesn't generate card advantage when a 2/1 body doesn't cost you a card to deal with. Card advantage is only relevant when every card you own is worth as much as your opponent's.

If you think I haven't played enough, consider this:

-I have been playing Magic for 11 years, and Legacy exclusively for 6 years
-I have been developing Nic Fit for over 2 years
-I play a different deck roughly every month, therefore
-I have piloted every deck you mentioned above, and even contributed to some (Stoneblade being an important one)
-I have participated in over 100 sanctioned events (probably closer to 200-300 but who counts at that point...)

[Tao]

I have some experience in this format, too, and found it surprising that it got doubted.

Anyway, I think you underestimate Stoneblade and Miracles severely by overestimating your own cards and not respecting theirs.

Stoneblade deck have their own Discard spells, they have multiple ways of creating card advantage that require completely different answers like Lingering Souls, Dark Confidant, Notion thief, Clique/Karakas or additional Planeswalkers so you can't just sit back and hope to have the right answer, wait to be able to pay for Spell Pierce (no one plays Spell Snare) and then trump them with Titan. And with Geist or Clique + Snapcaster they can very well fight through our Jace, too. This matchup is not one-sided in our favor, at all.

[Arianrhod]

While I don't especially know anything about, or indeed care about, the intricacies of this particular version of blue Nic Fit, I find the tone of the discussion quarrelsome and the lack of respect shocking. You two have both been in this thread since the very beginning [Tao] and shortly thereafter [Qweerios]. We've always managed to have a civil discourse before, even when completely and utterly disagreeing on some facet of the deck's design. Comparing our e-peens serves to accomplish nothing other than to make our deck and our community look like tools -- if two of the players with the most history with the archetype are regarding themselves and each other in such a fashion, then how do you think that reflects on the deck?

By all means continue discussion and so on and so forth; but please keep it civil. There's no reason to tear into each other with such venom. We're all Nic Fitters here -- and it's basically us vs world. Well, maybe us + aggro loam + junk vs the world =)

[Siiig]

While I don't especially know anything about, or indeed care about, the intricacies of this particular version of blue Nic Fit, I find the tone of the discussion quarrelsome and the lack of respect shocking. You two have both been in this thread since the very beginning [Tao] and shortly thereafter [Qweerios]. We've always managed to have a civil discourse before, even when completely and utterly disagreeing on some facet of the deck's design. Comparing our e-peens serves to accomplish nothing other than to make our deck and our community look like tools -- if two of the players with the most history with the archetype are regarding themselves and each other in such a fashion, then how do you think that reflects on the deck?

By all means continue discussion and so on and so forth; but please keep it civil. There's no reason to tear into each other with such venom. We're all Nic Fitters here -- and it's basically us vs world. Well, maybe us + aggro loam + junk vs the world =)

Yeah, we don't want to look like a bunch of storm players.

[Tao]

...

Amen. you are awesome Qweerios <3

[Star|Scream]

Yeah, we don't want to look like a bunch of Show And Tell players.

Fixed that for you

[HoneyT]

While I don't especially know anything about, or indeed care about, the intricacies of this particular version of blue Nic Fit, I find the tone of the discussion quarrelsome and the lack of respect shocking. You two have both been in this thread since the very beginning [Tao] and shortly thereafter [Qweerios]. We've always managed to have a civil discourse before, even when completely and utterly disagreeing on some facet of the deck's design. Comparing our e-peens serves to accomplish nothing other than to make our deck and our community look like tools -- if two of the players with the most history with the archetype are regarding themselves and each other in such a fashion, then how do you think that reflects on the deck?

By all means continue discussion and so on and so forth; but please keep it civil. There's no reason to tear into each other with such venom. We're all Nic Fitters here -- and it's basically us vs world. Well, maybe us + aggro loam + junk vs the world =)

/barn

Or however that goes.

On a different tangent, I'll be at GP Vegas. Make sure any of you crazy guys gonna be there hit me up!

[Arianrhod]

/barn

Or however that goes.

On a different tangent, I'll be at GP Vegas. Make sure any of you crazy guys gonna be there hit me up!

So jelly. Are you going to be doing any legacy side events while you're there, you think? Or just focusing on the main event / signatures / any MM-related side events?

EDZ: and yes, that's exactly how the /barn works. I'll make mafia players out of you all yet :P

[HoneyT]

So jelly. Are you going to be doing any legacy side events while you're there, you think? Or just focusing on the main event / signatures / any MM-related side events?

EDZ: and yes, that's exactly how the /barn works. I'll make mafia players out of you all yet :P


It's nuts here. Don't be jelly.

If I scrub out of the main event chances are I'll hop in a legacy side event or two.

[Qweerios]

I am not doubting Tao's experience, I am sure he has plenty. What I posted earlier is that I think that:

You will not lose a significant portion of your aggro/tempo matches because you lack Damnation/Carpet in your SB.
You will lose a significant portion of your combo matches if you do not have at least 12-14 pieces of hate against them.
Thinking otherwise as a Nic Fit player makes me doubt the quality of your experience.

I have no quarrels with Tao. I don't know what gave such impression, we are having a disagreement. From the beginning of this threat Tao has been the one I have been most in agreement with. I may be a little overzealous when I believe that we are arguing over something fundamental, and yet, it appears to be misunderstood.

Nic Fit had success when the meta was Maverick/RUG-heavy and very combo-light. It dedicated almost all of its SB to combo decks even though combo was quasi-extinct because those were the matchups that were troublesome. Nic Fit is a metagame deck built with a premise, that you will win against the fair field because we play the best removal, the best threats, and the most ridiculous attrition. Nic Fit is not as well-balanced as most of its contributors think it is.

Nic Fit is completely naked when it comes to combo. My last 2 rounds this week were against combo decks and I played 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 4 Fow, 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder, 2 Pierce, and sided an additional 2 Pierce, 2 Dimir Charm, 2 Surgical.... I still lost 1-2 to T.E.S. and Sneak Show.

Also, let's not put Esperblade(SFM, Jace, Souls, Counterspells) and Deathblade(SFM, Bob, Jace, Deathrite, Discard) in the same basket. Esperblade is more reactive and has much heavier disruption and a slower clock that relies on a couple of cards. They are more likely to try and Jace you out with counter backup. Deathblade is more proactive, has a very low blue count and uses a fish approach with a lot of CA. They have more small annoyances that have to be dealt with and much less disruption. They will use their Jace for CA and take a much bigger hit from Deed.

[Tao]

@Gitaxian Probe: Clear 4-off. Best thing ever and I feel stupid for not getting it earlier. Turning the first Therapy into a Thoughtseize is amazing, it feels like it improved every matchup by 5% lol.


@Damnation: The main problem is that your list had only fringe solutions that rarely work against Tombstalker and against Mother/Revoker. I used to split Deed/Damnation, maybe that could be the way, too. Either way, in the MD or the SB, I think at least a few solutions for these cards are necessary (Tombstalker more than Mother/Revoker).

Maybe something like 3 Deed, 3 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Damnation could work for the main deck and that would give you 2 more SB slots.


@Carpet:
Carpet is a unique card because it is a) extremely good and b) extremely likely to get sided in. If you play a 7 round tournament you will probably side this in about 4 times in average. And it will be the card that you want most in your opening hand every time. There is no other card that does that, not even close.
I know that the Combo matchup needs a lot of help from the SB but this is not about strictly following the goal of improving the Combo matchup as much as possible. Even if the matchups Carpet improves are favorable, they are not favorable enough to throw away such a unique chance to improve them all.

[Qweerios]

Damnation works fine when Deed won't cut it. Deed is superior in almost every cases. Go ahead and split Deed with Damnation if you please, there is nothing wrong with that. I chose to deal with Tombstalker/Iona with Jace and Selkie Hedge-Mage. While it is true that Deed can be Revoked and Stifled, Damnation can be Teeged and wipes your side of the board as well. In short, they both have their pros and cons, however, I wouldn't touch Decay or meddle with Pulse. The latter is a thing of the past.

Carpet is great, no doubt about it. Carpet isn't good against any combo deck out there so its not worth the SB space. Look at the amount of cards in the main that are completely dead against fair decks, then look at the amount of cards in the main that are completely dead against combo.

-4 Deed, -4 Decay, -3 Explorers, -1 Thrun, -1 Thragtusk, -1 Prime Titan against most combo decks out there right off the bat. Jace isn't that great either but at least hes blue and digs for additional answers.

[Tao]

- if you split your removal it will be less likely to end up with two Deeds in hand against a Tombstalker and impossible to end up with 2 Damnations against Teeg. It will usually be better to draw 1 Damnation, 1 Deed than to draw 2 Deed.

- "Carpet isn't good against any combo deck out there so its not worth the SB space."

If your exclusive goal is to be as good against Combo post board as possible that is true. If you want to optimize your deck to win tournaments it is not. You can still beat Combo with 12 SB cards, you can still lose to Combo even with 15 SB cards. You are still favored against RUG without Carpets, you can still lose to RUG even with Carpets.

[fireiced]

After lurking for so long (about 8 mths?) I believe both Tao and Qweerios have their own valid arguments of SB plan and style. Each of us play in a different meta (or so I assume) and there are definitely cards where one will find stellar against a particular type of deck while another will find the same cards useless or weak against that particular type of deck. Let's face it, not every Omni-tell deck is the same card for card as legacy is also a pet format where people will play cards they love. Amid Tao's and Qweerios' heated discussions, I believe us fellow Nic-Fitters can see for ourselves and actually try out their recommended type of SB cards against certain matchups and use the cards that best suit our own playstyle and meta. :tongue:







Also, let's not put Esperblade(SFM, Jace, Souls, Counterspells) and Deathblade(SFM, Bob, Jace, Deathrite, Discard) in the same basket. Esperblade is more reactive and has much heavier disruption and a slower clock that relies on a couple of cards. They are more likely to try and Jace you out with counter backup. Deathblade is more proactive, has a very low blue count and uses a fish approach with a lot of CA. They have more small annoyances that have to be dealt with and much less disruption. They will use their Jace for CA and take a much bigger hit from Deed.

I will also like to point out Qweerios' short and sweet comparison of Esperblade and Deathblade is extremely accurate. I just tested extensively today against both decks as Scapewish. Differences between both decks are subtle but our lines of play are extremely different. Against Esperblade I usually go for early therapies on brainstorm and JTMS when they approach 4 mana. Deathblade on the other hand I usually hold back therapies for the dreaded Batterskull as their varied angles of clocks (Bob, Deathrite and Clique) are manageable without the hassle of that lifelink EQ, I could actually race Deathblade quite well. Slaughter Games of Jace the Wallet Sculptor is always awesome against both decks thou.

SB-wise, I leave Explorers and Deed against Deathblade while taking them out against Esperblade.

@Arianrhod
After so much testing against these 2 decks [I explained before my meta is infested with U-Blade variants and combo (ANT, Belcher)] do you think the inclusion of Massacre is decent? There are times when they board in GoST and I really need an answer to it ASAP and usually cannot Innocent Blood the Douchbag as there is a Deathrite protecting him whereas Pyroclasm mana is too far off. I need to wish and sweep as my opponents usually Have a discard for my sweeps if I wait a turn. :rolleyes:

[Iron Buddha]

I think Qweerios' list is pretty much as perfect as it gets except three objections:
1. What is the point of 2 Eternal Witness? I've seen them in so many lists (as a 2 of) but no talking or any arguing about it.
2. Gitixian Probe is just outright awful. It's not that you can just go off like Storm after having checked that the path is free.
3. The difference between Pernicious Deed and Damnation is not that big. I can easily see running a 2/2 split or 3/1 or 4 Damnation. However I think that Abrupt Decay should definitely be a 4 of, because this card gives so much percentages against all Tempo Thresh variants. Maelstrom on the other is in my opinion inferior to all of them, Deed, Damnation, Decay.

[Qweerios]

I think Qweerios' list is pretty much as perfect as it gets except three objections:
1. What is the point of 2 Eternal Witness? I've seen them in so many lists (as a 2 of) but no talking or any arguing about it.
2. Gitixian Probe is just outright awful. It's not that you can just go off like Storm after having checked that the path is free.
3. The difference between Pernicious Deed and Damnation is not that big. I can easily see running a 2/2 split or 3/1 or 4 Damnation. However I think that Abrupt Decay should definitely be a 4 of, because this card gives so much percentages against all Tempo Thresh variants. Maelstrom on the other is in my opinion inferior to all of them, Deed, Damnation, Decay.

Eternal Witness is our Snapcaster. She is good early to bring back a Decay, sac to Therapy, make a land drop, and/or chump. She is good late to bring back a Jace, a Deed, a Thragtusk, a Volrath/Tower. The main reasons why I always had 2 in my mainboard is because you want a Witness to be available at all times with GSZ and you cannot afford to have your single copy exiled (Two Towers). You could get away with 1 Witness but I would rather add in a 3rd than cut her down to 1.

Gitaxian Probe is just outright godly. Hand information is the best way to sequence your plays properly. Seeing a Stifle/Pierce/SFM/Bob/Wastelands... or anything really will let you know right away how to fetch, spend your mana, brainstorm, what to GSZ for. Probe also happens to have some serious synergy with Cabal Therapy. Let's not forget that Probe is also blue and helps us reach that critical blue count for FoW post-board.

I can see the 2/2 split being a good idea, it is a legitimate choice as far as dealing with creatures go (which is the bulk of Deed's duties). What I have issues with is how narrow Damnation is vs. Deed. It is hard to Deed away a Tombstalker but it happens quite often when Jace and Selkie fends him off for a while. Comparatively, Damnation won't deal with equipments, Rest in Peace/Helm, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library, etc... in addition to sweeping the board of all creatures while also leaving your Witness/Thrun/Thragtusk/Titan on the field. Damnation is also worst at dealing with flipped Delvers and Lingering Souls as it ends up costing an additional mana and sweeps your side as well. The double black in the cost can also be prohibitive when you are trying to reach 4 mana for Jace (I usualy go for Forest, Swamp, Island, Island, Forest, Swamp and avoid dual lands at all times). Against RUG for example, I can't just sweep the Delvers and Mongeese while keeping my Ooze on the board. At 4 mana, Damnation not only gives Delvers another swing, but they also give your opponent additional disruption against your answers. You can Stifle a Deed, but you can also Waste the second black source, Waste the 3rd land, Stifle the 4th land, Daze at 4 mana, Pierce at 5... Then take Jund, Rock, or Maverick for another example, Damnation will get rid of that Deathrite, Bob, and KotR, but your Thrun will go as well and their Sylvan Library, and Jitte will remain.

Also, glad you agree with me that Pulse is a thing of the past.

[Tao]

- I had the same reservations as you about Gitaxian Probe which is why I had never tried it but after Qweerios posted about it I finally did. I should have tried it sooner. It is amazing. Especially opening hands with Therapy + probe are on a completely different level. These are often complete blowouts. It is so nice to not have to wait which land he plays or blindly call Brainstorm. It regularly gives you a free card for 0 Mana and not just "a" card but the best card from your opponent's hand.

It isn't all that bad on its own either. Play around Daze or not? Play around Swords to Plowshares or Thoughtseize with your Explorer? Blow the Deed already? Am I in danger of dying to Lightning Bolts?

- Qweerios and I were the most active on BUG lists and we added the second Witness at about the same time I think. Not sure who added it first. Since then there was no discussion about it, it just feels like the right number to me and I imagine it is the same for him. Three would be too many, one would be too few, that is my experience. When I played with only 1 I regularly wished I had a second copy later on. Qweerios has 23 lands and Stronghold while I have no Stronghold (2 Creeping Tar Pits and only 22 lands) so Witness gets a bit more important for him, but even without it I think that 2 is the right number.

[Tao]

I can see the 2/2 split being a good idea, it is a legitimate choice as far as dealing with creatures go (which is the bulk of Deed's duties). What I have issues with is how narrow Damnation is vs. Deed. It is hard to Deed away a Tombstalker but it happens quite often when Jace and Selkie fends him off for a while. Comparatively, Damnation won't deal with equipments, Rest in Peace/Helm, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library, etc... in addition to sweeping the board of all creatures while also leaving your Witness/Thrun/Thragtusk/Titan on the field. Damnation is also worst at dealing with flipped Delvers and Lingering Souls as it ends up costing an additional mana and sweeps your side as well. The double black in the cost can also be prohibitive when you are trying to reach 4 mana for Jace (I usualy go for Forest, Swamp, Island, Island, Forest, Swamp and avoid dual lands at all times). Against RUG for example, I can't just sweep the Delvers and Mongeese while keeping my Ooze on the board. At 4 mana, Damnation not only gives Delvers another swing, but they also give your opponent additional disruption against your answers. You can Stifle a Deed, but you can also Waste the second black source, Waste the 3rd land, Stifle the 4th land, Daze at 4 mana, Pierce at 5... Then take Jund, Rock, or Maverick for another example, Damnation will get rid of that Deathrite, Bob, and KotR, but your Thrun will go as well and their Sylvan Library, and Jitte will remain.


That is why I suggested a 3/1 split. Deed is better so you still play three times as many Deeds as Damnations.
Damnation is almost always the cheaper card and especially but not exclusively against Tombstalker/Revoker the variety helps. With Decay you already have a good amount of solutions for things like Sylvan Library, Counterbalance or Jitte and while having even more solutions is not bad, it is not a number one priority.

- I am not saying that you should definitely play one Pulse. It was a suggestion to reduce the deck's weakness against Tombstalker. Pulse has some things going for it, though. The first is Tombstalker, the second is Jace. It also destroys Snak Attack for a reasonable cost. I often lose to opponent's playing the Sneak Attack from the top of his deck after the initial wars left him with only Mana (and me without Counters in G2). From then on he just waits for a cantrip or a Fattie to win and I can't deal with the SA.

[Qweerios]

If I had Pulse in the main and I played against Sneak Attack, I would side it out pronto. Once SnT or Sneak has resolved, it's too late.

[Arianrhod]

Quick 2-minute report from Jupiter, now with bullet points!

-) I was the victim of shit pairings, as I played my carmate on Reanimator r1, and then got god-handed by OmniTell later in the day to go X-2. Last round, I got paired vs Kich (on aggroloam), and made a crucial misplay which cost me the match, causing me to end up X-3 on the day and just out of prize contention at like 21st or 23rd or something.

-) I beat Sneak Attack on a mull to 3, game one, where my mull hand was Forest, Taiga, Chameleon. This made up for the reanimator/omni.

-) Devin (Siig on here) started off rough after a series of examples for why I made certain changes to the list that I did showed up to ruin his day. I'm thinking of Avenger of Zendikar vs Krenko + Siege-Gang Commander as a prime example. I don't recall how he ended up on the day -- I want to say X-3 or X-4.

-) Sam (MrIggins on here) plowed his way to X-1-1, good for top 8. He was paired vs Nick Patnode on Elves as I was leaving -- have not heard how that ended up going. I gave him what advice I could, but that matchup is pretty challenging, and Patnode both knows his shit -and- has played vs Scapewish several times in the past, so he knows what to look out for.

Only changes to the list on my end were to remove the 4th REB and the Collective Voyage from the board in favor of a pair of Golgari Charms. Missed Voyage once on the day, but otherwise was okay without it. Charms came in two or three matches, but I never saw one. Felt good having them, though, so they'll be staying in for SCG tomorrow. And now, on that note, I'm going to go to bed so I can get up at 5:30am ._.

I'll be doing my usual live-blogging-phone-posting thing tomorrow, so prep for spam.

[Tammit67]

I'll be doing my usual live-blogging-phone-posting thing tomorrow, so prep for spam.

Good, see you tomorrow

[MrIggins]

Lost in top 8 of Jupiter to Patnode on Elves, getting killed on turn 2 both games. I definitely want something for this matchup, Golgari Charms might be that but I'm not sure. It doesn't kill Deathrite or Nettle Sentinels making it pretty easy for them to set back up. Not sure. My loss in the swiss was to Eric English who was also on Elves. The pair of them have been tearing it up in the last few NELCs so having another card or two for that matchup seems like a good choice for our metagame. It's discouraging losing so abruptly after a good run, but I will not complain about a good result.

Anyway, expect a report in the morning.

[Tao]

If I had Pulse in the main and I played against Sneak Attack, I would side it out pronto. Once SnT or Sneak has resolved, it's too late.

Still better than Decay. And what about Jace and Tombstalker?

[MrIggins]

I registered the following 76 for the Jupiter event yesterday:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Reverent Silence
1 Perish
1 Regrowth

This is the same maindeck as Arianrhod with a couple of sideboard changes. I cut Collective Voyage for Regrowth because I never encountered the situation for Voyage, or just never felt like I needed to wish for it. So we have Regrowth as a different corner-case target. I found myself wanting to re-buy wish targets like Pulse or Pyroclasm in some long games, and it just adds a little more versatility to wishes in game 1s. I never went for it yesterday and I will probably be cutting it for some anti-Elves card but I don't hate having it in the board for now.

Anyway, tournament report!

Round 1: Graham with Sneak/Show

I lose the die roll (a common theme on the day) and he goes Island, go. I put him on combo and really hope it isn't the mono-blue Omnitell deck. When he fetches a Volcanic Island I relax a little because this matchup is a lot more favorable for us, but still bad of course. My hand doesn't have a ton of interaction other than a single Therapy, and I eventually die to Sneak Attack plus huge monsters.

Sideboarding: -3 Deed, -2 Thragtusk, +3 Red Blast, +2 Slaughter Games

I Therapy turn 1 naming Show and Tell, seeing lands, a couple of cantrips and an Emrakul. I Slaughter Games him naming Emrakul and he slumps a bit. In going through his deck I see 3 copies of Erratic Explosion, interestingly. He sticks a Sneak Attack and Intuitions for Griselbrands, hits me with it, and lets it die, while I Witness back my Slaughter Games. He probes me seeing Games + Red Blast, and concedes.

Game 3 I keep a hand with turn 3 Slaughter Games off of an Explorer, but he Cliques that away. However he doesn't have much going on either after I counter his Intuition, and I kill him with Scapeshift.
This round 1 win against a bad matchup put me on a high that helped carry me through the day, not that I needed a ton of help with some lucky pairings.
1-0

Round 2: Koty with Bant

Game 1 he Swords my first Explorer, but I have a second which he sets off by attacking. I don't draw lands but I do draw Zeniths and set off two more Explorers, make sure he doesn't have anything, and do a lot of damage with Valakut triggers.

I didn't take sideboard notes so I don't think I made any changes, he had some blue cards but nothing that I felt was must-counter. He sided out Jaces for some reason so I guess I got rewarded for not bringing in Red Blast to deal with his planeswalker.

Game 2 I set off an early Explorer and he Surgicals them. I cheer inwardly because it means he doesn't really know how to play against this deck if he's bringing those in. I take some damage but am able to set up Wish->Thoughtseize and kill him with Scapeshift.

2-0

Round 3: Timur with BUG Delver

These are a couple of weird games. Game 1 he lands a turn 1 Delver that flips, and he Brainstorms but finds no second land. He gets himself past the first Brainstorm, casts a second, and again misses on land. I take a bunch of damage from the Delver but drop a Thragtusk, trade it for a big Goyf after getting a few hits in, he Stifles the leaves-play trigger and puts me to 6 with Delver plus Deathrite Shaman but at this point I have Valakut active and manage to race him with that.

I board -1 Colossus, -1 Top for +2 Red Blast (I think. I need to take better sideboard notes. It's possible I didn't board here.)

Game 2 he goes land, Delver, land, Delver, Delver, go. They don't flip on his turn 2 and I Pyroclasm them away. Scapeshift kills him pretty quickly afterwards.

3-0

Round 4: Eric English with Elves.

I was hoping to dodge him today, as we have tested together and he is a VERY competent Elves player. I lose the die roll and go turn 2 Wish for Pyroclasm, and then die before I can cast it.

Game 2 he drops a turn 3 Natural Order for Progenitus, then gets a Craterhoof to one-shot me the turn before I can go for my Perish.

Lesson learned: Turn 2 Wish for Pyroclasm is too slow, and we need help in this matchup.

3-1

Round 5: Ben Green with UWR Delver, featuring Geist of St. Traft.

I knew what he was on after watching him play a friend in the previous round, so I'm feeling good about this one. He StP's an Explorer and I take some hits from a pair of Delvers that don't flip immediately, play Thragtusk to gain time, Therapy seeing a hand with no countermagic, and kill him with Scapeshift without too much trouble.

In Game 2, he flips a Delver off of Spell Pierce and Dazes me twice, but has no other business. I'm ready to go off with an Explorer, so I Therapy naming Spell Pierce (the known card) and hit THREE of them, leaving him with nothing as I cast Scapeshift.

4-1

My breakers are good enough to draw into top 8 at 4-1-1, for the 7th place seed. I know my opponent is Patnode on Elves. Kevin and I discuss the matchup a bit, confirming that hands with turn 2 Wish as their only action don't do enough. He gives me his sideboard plan which makes me feel a bit more confident, but I know this is going to be really hard.

Game 1 I get a very strong draw and blind-hit 2 Natural Orders with my turn 1 Therapy. I flash it back for a Glimpse of Nature, and Huntmaster starts to control the board. He mistakes life totals and thinks he has me dead to his Craterhoof for 15, but I survive at 2 and he's a bit tilted by the mistake, so he concedes when I show him the Burning Wish even though he could have killed me with a Deathrite activation.

Sideboards: -1 Colossus, -2 Thragtusk, -1 Primeval Titan, +3 Slaughter Games, +1 Thoughtseize

I leave the Perish in the board because I know he will bring in Progenitus, and I don't want to be dead to it. Having a virtual 4 copies is better than 1 here, I decide. It doesn't matter as he proceeds to kill me on turn 2 after I mull to 5, and then again on turn 2 when I keep a slightly slow hand that casts Slaughter Games on turn 3. Whatever. I collect my $100 credit and get going.

Notes about the deck: I saw Deed maybe twice on the day, which is unfortunate but it happens, I was able to manage without it. I felt happy with the maindeck but found Colossus wasn't ever something I wanted to draw. Probably due to the matchups I had. I may try removing him and going down to 60 cards main as Huntmaster is better in most fair matchups, but he's much better against Jund with their Punishing Fires than Huntmaster so that may not be right. He can stay for now of course.

I love having Reanimate as a Wish target but I have also only gotten it once ever, and I think it might be too cute. Similarly Regrowth is in as just a corner-case option. I think I will be removing those two for hate cards against Elves, either Golgari Charm or more Pyroclasms. While Charm is a solid option, -1/-1 doesn't kill Nettle Sentinels or Deathrite Shamans, and I don't know if it's a card I want to bring in against Leyline of Sanctity decks when I already need to bring in Red Blasts (usually) and Slaughter Games. Cutting the slower bombs like Thragtusk and Titan is fine, but I don't want to cut Huntmaster in those matchups because it pressures them the most effectively. Though I suppose Deed also needs to come out, so there might be enough room. I'll play around with it and figure it out. Being able to bring in Pyroclasm over Charm is better against decks like Deathblade, killing their Mystics and Deathrites in addition to Confidants if that's what you want to be doing. Even if they don't get boarded in, it makes your Wishes able to turn into Pyroclasms multiple times which I think is probably quite helpful in a lot of cases. I'm going to do some testing with each and see what I like.

[Qweerios]

Is 4 Explorers really necessary? I have been wondering, why not a 2/1/1 split between Explorer, Deathrite, and Birds?

[conboy31]

Is 4 Explorers really necessary? I have been wondering, why not a 2/1/1 split between Explorer, Deathrite, and Birds?

What is your motivation for proposing such a change? I suspect that the day we want less than 3 explorers might be a sign that the deck is poor for the meta. The obvious knock is that deathrite and birds will always be sick whereas veteran can be tower'd or therapied away for an immediate mana ramp for that turn and the rest of the game.

[Svknoe]

At least with Rector and ScapeWish versus the fair decks, I find that I often want two explorers in the early game. Ramping 4 is nice, but the primary purpose is to still ramp if the first explorer is thwarted by some card like swords or stifle. Deathrite has some nice flexibility, but having your mana sources die to your own sweepers seems very bad, from a Scapeshift perspective. It may speed up our interaction with combo if we don't have a therapy, though.

[vearian]

Hello everyone,

I have been lurking here for quite a bit and i have been reading up on scapeshift, to learn the deck better.
For a while now i have my scapeshift deck complete, had to buy the neccesary duals to get it but that was okay :).
i had some succes with the deck as well and made a few top 8 at small money tournaments.
Yesterday i had a small tournament here that my friends organised and i took scapeshift. I was hesitating between junk or scapeshift but after hearing a couple of the decks that would be coming i took scapeshift anyway. Our local meta isn't combo heavy and a lot is creature based so scapeshift is usually a good bet.

so now for a small tournament report of what i can remember.

first my decklist that i used:

Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness

Artifacts (3)
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Enchantments (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

Spells (17)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Suns Zenith
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands (24)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Forest

Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
1 Collective Voyage
1 Scapeshift
1 Grim Discovery
1 lnnocent Blood
1 Duress
1 virtue's ruin

Here in holland there is alot of blue based creature decks like rug and bug and sometimes even a little merfolk. So that is why i chose for abrupt decay in my 61. And i have no stronghold in here but that is mostly cause i don't have one yet. But in alot of the games i played i didn't even miss it. The maindeck is an early version of this deck which i just took from this thread. XdeckX was also attending the tournament and he showed me the new version of the scapeshift list. Which added a 3rd scapeshift to the main i'm gonna have a look where i can fit that in, in my list i think the most obvious choice is a abrupt decay i think.

Report:
Right from the get go i get paired against combo, against a tes deck.
Round 1:
Game 1:
He goes off in his second turn with 16 goblin tokens. my only shot was to draw a pernicious deed to wipe them away. I play my veteran explorer to block and get enough land to play my pernicious deed. but on my next turn i didn't draw it and we go to the next round.

Game 2:
I hold him off long enough for me to scapeshift for lethal.

Game 3:
he has to mulligan to 5 and i keep my original seven. He doesn't draw a land and gives me enough breathing room to disrupt and scapeshift for lethal. But it was quite lucky cause the next turn he could go off.

sideboard:
sideboarded 3 slaughter games and 4 red elemental blasts. I took the more expensive spells out of my deck since i wouldn't probably be casting them anway.
1-0

Round2:
Here i got paired against a loam deck with devastating dreams and knight of the reliquary's
Game 1:
i keep my original seven which contained a cabal therapy. I saw his previous match and knew he played mox diamonds and with that in mind i chose mox diamonds and had to discard 2 of them. I ramped nicely so i started throwing thragtusks. I played one and then he wasted my stomping grounds so i couldn't cast the second one but i drew a badlands off the top and casted it anyway my next turn :P.
He tried to control my board with devastating dreams but the tokens the thragtusks left behind finished the job.

Game 2:
Was quick and short he had total wasteland control and couldn't get my basics in play scooped shortly after.

game 3:
Removed his loam engine via a slaughter games but later discoverd that his burning wish was a better target. But it slowed him down long enough for me to scapeshift for lethal. He could have stopped me by playing devasting dreams which could have kept him out of scape range but neglected to do so.

sideboard:
2 slaughter games to disrupt his loam engine

2-0

Round 3:
Got paired against a friend which played a death and taxes deck.
Game 1:
He is mana screwed i keep him under control with my deeds and decays and scapeshift for lethal and he hates when i do that !! :P. He thinks it's unfair the "i win button", but i love his face everytime i cast it.

Game 2:
He comes on to strong and keeps me under tight control with wastelands and ports and finishes me quick.

Game 3:
Here is where things get freaky this game resulted in our draw.
this game ended with me on 17 life and him on 64.
After trading blows he got a small army on the field containing a batterskull a thalia and a mother of runes. He kicked me down to ten and then i started playing thragtusks to gain the neccesary life to find a burning wish or a scapeshift. after the thragtusk i went to 15 and he sworded my tusk so i jump to 20. in my next turn use a zenith for a shuffle and another tusk. while the rest of the time he keeps attacking me with his thalia equipped with a batterskull. and keeps gaining more life so scapeshifting for lethal was out of the question. But i don't find any removal or wishes with my top so that sucked. So we go into time and it ends in a draw. He plays his cataclysm in hope to still kick me down to 0 but he casted it to late.

sideboard:
i didn't sideboard this matchup since all the best cards against him are easy to wish for against this matchup most of the time.
2-0-1

Round 4:
this was my only loss of the day and it was versus a aluren deck.
Game 1:
With alot of luck i could get a slaughter games via a burning wish. He discarded it with a cabal therapy but in my next turn i returned it with my witness. And then flashbacked my own cabal therapy using my witness to discard his only creature in his hand, and luck didn't give him another critter to use.

game 2:
Lost the moment aluren enter the playing field. Tried to counter a bounce creature with a red elemental blast but he had a fow for that so that was game 2.

Game 3:
Lost the moment Aluren came in to play.

sideboard:
for this match i sided in my 3 slaughter games and 4 red elemental blasts. These are very crucial in this matchup and unwinnable without.

2-1-1

due to a good tiebreaker i finished 4th place so high enough for prices. We split the top 4 and i went home with a wasteland extra for my junk deck.

This is what i remember from the top of my head. Sorry if my report is a bit of a chaos haven't done much of these.
Any comments or question i would love to read them :).

[Siiig]

I'll work on a full out report later today, but some bullets similar to Kevin...

I'm mulling over my games, and I'm almost positive that I actually DIDN'T wiff against Chris round 1 with my 38 Shift, I just forgot how to do it. I was looking for mountain #7, not valakut #2 (I'm bad don't worry).

Regardless I'm back to 2x Stomping Grounds

I'll be going back to 61 for Scapeshift #3

I still don't have a Colossus, Avenger is staying main board.

Tusk #2 versus Ooze: I may stay on Ooze, at the very least for local. I really like having the option.

Devastating Agro Loam (the match Kevin lost due to a missplay) is brutal for us. I played it in the side event during top 8. I believe Kich just switched to Jund, so I don't think we need to worry as much haha.

Will get more in here, probably after lunch when I can grab my note pad.

[sherko7]

Anybody still play Punishing Nic Fit? I still play it and have been in love with it for a while. But its getting worse and worse in our meta. Omnimaniac/Omnitell is rising as if Sneak Show hadn't had much presence. I know Miracles is pretty even against us, but I've never won a match against them since they went RiP + Helm. Jund is easy, but I keep getting the worst hands every time I play them. Mav is the most dominant in our meta, but I NEVER get paired against them.

Anyway, I'll be running the following list this Sunday:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Batterskull

I'm planning to take out Obstinate Baloths if I find a 3rd Slaughter Games before Sunday and probably add +1 REB. The Lilianas I'm unsure of. I just added them to the board recently because I used to have 6(!) REBs and Pyros and, well, that was a bit too noob-ish :tongue:

For the meta, I'll be expecting the same turnout as during our last tourney:

Metagame:

Maverick
2 GW Mav
4 Dark Mav
3 Punishing Mav

Show and Tell
4 Sneak Show
4 Omnitell

Delver
RUG Delver 5
URW Delver 1

Combo
4 TES
2 ANT

Miracle
4 URW Miracle

Mono Black
4 Pox

JUND
2 Punishing Jund
1 Jund

Merfolk
3 Merfolk

BUG
3 Shardless BUG
1 BUG Delver

Elf
3 Elf

Dredge
1 LED Dredge
1 LED-less Dredge
1 Manaless Dredge

Junk
3 Junk

Blade
3 Esper Blade
1 Death Blade

Mono White
2 Death & Taxes
1 White Weenie

Nic Fit
2 Nic Fit

Reanimator
1 UB Reanimator
1 Mono Black Reanimator

Goblins
1 Goblins

Rogue Decks
1 GR Aggro
1 Bant Hexproof
1 Zomb-Vine
1 Cephalid Breakfast
1 4C Cascade
1 NO Bant
1 Deadguy Ale

Comments/suggestions please! I know my board needs tweaking! But my main, well, I love my main!:smile:

[vearian]

Anybody still play Punishing Nic Fit? I still play it and have been in love with it for a while. But its getting worse and worse in our meta. Omnimaniac/Omnitell is rising as if Sneak Show hadn't had much presence. I know Miracles is pretty even against us, but I've never won a match against them since they went RiP + Helm. Jund is easy, but I keep getting the worst hands every time I play them. Mav is the most dominant in our meta, but I NEVER get paired against them.

In my local meta show and tell almost never appears. But i think if you're having such trouble with it that you up your slaughter games to 4 and remove the 2 obstinate baloths. It's your best chance against them to remove all their Emrakuls after that i think we can win it. Ofcourse in combination with your pyroblasts and red elemental blasts to keep show and tell at bay until you can slaughter game him.
and it is also the number one weapon against miracles to remove their rest in peace.

[Kich867]

I'll work on a full out report later today, but some bullets similar to Kevin...

I'm mulling over my games, and I'm almost positive that I actually DIDN'T wiff against Chris round 1 with my 38 Shift, I just forgot how to do it. I was looking for mountain #7, not valakut #2 (I'm bad don't worry).

Regardless I'm back to 2x Stomping Grounds

I'll be going back to 61 for Scapeshift #3

I still don't have a Colossus, Avenger is staying main board.

Tusk #2 versus Ooze: I may stay on Ooze, at the very least for local. I really like having the option.

Devastating Agro Loam (the match Kevin lost due to a missplay) is brutal for us. I played it in the side event during top 8. I believe Kich just switched to Jund, so I don't think we need to worry as much haha.

Will get more in here, probably after lunch when I can grab my note pad.

I'm pretty confident that Punishing Jund is just a better version of Devastating Loam, though Rich and I are brewing a Devastating Dreams list that sounds too good to be dumb so we'll see what happens XD. I agree though, that matchup is pretty tough. I may try it out again with Punishing Groves and see how that goes. I just -really- don't love how sometimes you draw a hand and are fully aware the game won't go anywhere unless you get lucky, since there's so many do nothing cards.

[Tao]

Comments/suggestions please! I know my board needs tweaking! But my main, well, I love my main!


for the MD: Try 4 Gitaxian Probe supported by 1 Tropical Island. It is not a big strain on the mana because usually you will cast it for free so you won't have to fetch the Tropical. I haven't tried it yet, but I played a lot of Punishing Nic Fit and BUG Fit. Even though it might sound like an odd choice I am convinced that Probe will be a big improvement.

- 1 Kitchen Finks
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run?
- 1 DR Shaman?
- 1 Punishing Fire?
+ 4 Gitaxian Probe
+ 1 Tropical Island

Usually I like Finks but in your Meta they don't do much. They are bad against Maverick, bad against all these Combo decks, bad against UW (Blade/Miracle), bad against Elves. They are only really good against the one Goblin deck and the Pox decks.
About the other cards I am not sure (you could also cut other cards and keep Fire/Shaman) but please do yourself a favor and try out Gitaxian Probe.


for the SB: so much Maverick! Maybe a singleton Virtue's Ruin to replace the Ooze with in G2? Other than that your MD looks good against them. What I miss in the SB are a few Thoughtseizes. Something more to actively disrupt Combo decks before they kill you.

My SB would look something like this:

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate/Surgical
2 Slaughter Games

[Siiig]

Jupiter Games NELC -- 6/22/2013

No frills start to the day, headed out to grab Josh before hopping on 84 for the miracles level grind that is going to Jupiter. Once we arrived up there, met up with the rest of my crew. Actually had to put most of the deck back together that morning, realized Thragtusk is what was missing from my main board count. Agonized a bunch over keeping Extirpate in my side board, and upon seeing a local that once upon a time played TinFins 3, I decided it was a good call. Once this was done I spent the rest of the time wondering if Kevin was going to make it.

He did, and in went Virtues Ruin into my board.

I've mentioned my current list prior in this thread. -1 Tusk +1 Ooze, -1 Forest +1 Phy Tower, Avenger over Colossus, 60 cards so no 3rd Shift, +3 Fetch -2 Stomping Grounds -1 Bayou

Round 1 -- Chris on Maverick: I've met Chris in prior Jupiters, he's pretty chill with out group. We both know what we're on and the match was very relaxed to start off.

Game 1: According to my notes (looking at the life totals) I landed a Thragtusk and a Huntmaster, but the key to this match was I may have botched my Scapeshift. I had intended to 36 him, but went looking for mountains and ran out. The details, now that I go back over it, are very fuzzy. But I remember looking at the second Valakut and saying "I can't grab that, it's not a mountain!". Regardless, I took the game after MUCH durdling.

Game 2: Another very long game, same creatures came out as prior, but I never got to the scapeshift.

Game 3: This was a feature match, because we went to time so hard. He slammed all his dudes (plus teeg) while I had shift in hand. Final health was 1 to 20 after a misplay on his part (could have pushed through two 4/4s, but tried to do fancy dodge tech and wound up hitting me for 9 instead of 10). On the pass to me I dug with all my might for a burning wish, but to no avail. Starting the day off on a solid draw isn't the worst thing.

Round 2 0-0-1: Fox with Goblins. When someone goes turn 1 unglued Mountain, they're either on Goblins or Burn.

Game 1: Described above, durdle a bit into angry mountains.

Game 2: I just couldn't get enough footing to shift out. My last notes have him at 20, so I never actually touched him.

Game 3: Super durdle mode. Avenger came out to rep. According to Kich, afterwards, I believe I messed up here. At one point I swung with avengers saporings at 1/2. I could have played a valakut to ramp them up, and at the same time, he blocked 3 of them. I killed them all assuming they were dead, but 2 of what was blocked were 1/1's. This could have resulted in a proper alpha strike, but instead Kranko + Seige Gang flung me out for 20. Too bad we give mono color decks lands.

Round 3 0-1-1: Morgan on HiveMind Show and Tell.

Game 1: I believe I won the dice roll, and we get going. Turn 1 therapy on "brainstorm" reveals the nice slow play of 3 land emmy hive mind. I get my first chance to actually read hive mind, not that it mattered. We go back and forth, I think I set off a vet with tower and play like woodelves and pass. He sets off the SnT, and I put down another elves. I manage to hit my land drop and 18 him off his fetches staring down a flying spaghetti monster.

Game 2: Turn 3 Show and Tell emmy.

Game 3: Turn 3 Show and Tell emmy.

I brought in REB and Slaughter Games for this, I actually managed to REB an SnT, but got shown a force. I dug as hard as I could on Game 3 for Wish -> Innocent blood after popping 2 vets off his emmy, but no luck. The wishes don't like me today.

Round 4 0-2-1: Devin on Death and Taxes

Game 1: Ahahah you're names Devin too, ahaha, rah rah rah. No really I've never met someone else with my name before =P. Death and Taxes. I have virtues ruin in my board.

Game 2: Did you read the line above? Pernicious deed is good.

Round 5 1-2-1: Tim on RUG Delver, Tim is a nice enough guy to start. I found out he's a pretty normal RUG player once we actually started playing.

Game 1: He goes Delver, I go vet, he flips off brain storm, I do some things. He gets goyf, I get deed and play it, he kills me. My note here is actually "Deed a turn late", and he commented that was pretty accurate.

I pick up my deck and begin to board things. This is when I remembered something. RuG is shitty versus us. Legit, I kid you not, that thought went through my brain and we went to game two after I brought in REB and 1 games.

Game 2: Kind of like game 1. He plays small dudes, I play ramp spells, he plays small dudes, I play bigger dudes. I shift for 18, he makes me show him mountains. "I did that once today, it's not happening again".

Game 3: Did you know Thragtusk and Huntmaster are bigger than Delver of Secrets? True fact.

Round 6 2-2-1: I'm out of the money, I know it, and I'm relieved to sit down across from C.J. I know he's on elves, and I really don't care if I win or lose.

That being said he played super well through multiple therapy's and deeds both games. No win con in time to stop his elf ball both times.


Wound up 2-3-1 on the day. After six rounds that STARTED with a rough game, I'm decently happy with everything that went on--except losing to Goblins. That really didn't sit well. That should be a buy, but the lose is nothing short of my own fault.

I got to see Kevin play against my friend Rich (on stoneblade) in a for-fun match. Made me feel good in that I don't think I actually do anything wrong. I'm sure there were stacks of misplays and miskeeps on my part. That's a pretty big downfall of not getting to play very much.

Take Aways:
+2 Stomping Grounds
+1 Scapeshift
Just be better versus Goblins.

New possible Sideboard tech: Life from the Loam.

I didn't comment on board options a lot, because there are quite a few matches where I actually don't board anything. Because of that fact I may drop extirpate for something more useful. Just hard when dredge actually exists in my meta at home x.X!

[hymntotourcock]

- I had the same reservations as you about Gitaxian Probe which is why I had never tried it but after Qweerios posted about it I finally did. I should have tried it sooner. It is amazing. Especially opening hands with Therapy + probe are on a completely different level. These are often complete blowouts. It is so nice to not have to wait which land he plays or blindly call Brainstorm. It regularly gives you a free card for 0 Mana and not just "a" card but the best card from your opponent's hand.

Shorttime lurker here. Do non-blue players also run Probe? How often does the 2 life matter? I'm brewing a BG Nic Fit list and I would love to include this card.

[mini1337s]

I've been having great results with a slightly modified version of Arianrhod's Jund-colored Nic-Fit list:

Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Wood Elves
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift

4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Collective Voyage
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Overmaster

The difference is:
Main:
-1 Chameleon Colossus (wasn't doing enough)
-2 Forest
-1 Swamp
-1 Bayou

+1 Scavenging Ooze (MVP! The one thing this deck lacks is decent ways to interact with the graveyard)
+3 Wooded Foothills (for fixing mana, resetting top)

SB:
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Overmaster (to cast a game-winning Scapeshift or GSZ)

My thoughts over the 30 or so games I've played is that I want a 4th Wooded Foothills and maybe another Scavenging Ooze, either in the main for the side. I could see myself cutting 1 Scapeshift from the main for the 2nd Ooze, as it's just been a house.
Everything else feels super tight. Semi-shitty games versus combo, but you absolutely shit on decks like RUG and Maverick. Feel favored versus control too.
Everytime I have a Huntmaster that doesn't immediately get removed, I cheer! Holy shit people don't want to play versus that little guy!

[Tao]

Shorttime lurker here. Do non-blue players also run Probe? How often does the 2 life matter? I'm brewing a BG Nic Fit list and I would love to include this card.

In straight BG I would splash it without any doubt. I would play a Tropical Island then to make it hard-castable later on.

The 2 life are worth it without a doubt. The only decks with Burn atm are Jund and Canadian. Against Canadian even the info on what the hell you are supposed to play around between Spell Pierce, Stifle, Wasteland, Daze and Force is worth it. In combination with Therapy it gets even better of course. Against Jund the combination with Therapy allows you to get beaten by one of their broken 2 drops (Confidant, Hymn, Sylvan Library) less often.
All they have for burn are 4 Bolts, they still try to beat you to death with Tarmogoyfs. The 2 life are not much in comparison.

[sherko7]

In my local meta show and tell almost never appears. But i think if you're having such trouble with it that you up your slaughter games to 4 and remove the 2 obstinate baloths. It's your best chance against them to remove all their Emrakuls after that i think we can win it. Ofcourse in combination with your pyroblasts and red elemental blasts to keep show and tell at bay until you can slaughter game him.
and it is also the number one weapon against miracles to remove their rest in peace.

Yeah I need to pick those up! Meanwhile I just remembered I have a couple of Memoricides from when I played straight GB Nic Fit so those will do for now. I agree with your last statement about Slaughter Games being the absolute weapon against Miracles. Most of the games I played against Miracles I always manage to get the 2 Slaughter Games off (RiP and Jace) only to be later destroyed by a well protected Entreat. More Slaughter Games then for sure!:smile:


for the MD: Try 4 Gitaxian Probe supported by 1 Tropical Island. It is not a big strain on the mana because usually you will cast it for free so you won't have to fetch the Tropical. I haven't tried it yet, but I played a lot of Punishing Nic Fit and BUG Fit. Even though it might sound like an odd choice I am convinced that Probe will be a big improvement.

- 1 Kitchen Finks
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run?
- 1 DR Shaman?
- 1 Punishing Fire?
+ 4 Gitaxian Probe
+ 1 Tropical Island

Usually I like Finks but in your Meta they don't do much. They are bad against Maverick, bad against all these Combo decks, bad against UW (Blade/Miracle), bad against Elves. They are only really good against the one Goblin deck and the Pox decks.
About the other cards I am not sure (you could also cut other cards and keep Fire/Shaman) but please do yourself a favor and try out Gitaxian Probe.


for the SB: so much Maverick! Maybe a singleton Virtue's Ruin to replace the Ooze with in G2? Other than that your MD looks good against them. What I miss in the SB are a few Thoughtseizes. Something more to actively disrupt Combo decks before they kill you.

My SB would look something like this:

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate/Surgical
2 Slaughter Games

I will definitely try Probe, but probably not run the Trops! I don't have them! Kessig Wolf-Run was pretty decent for me as due to the lack of finishers (I cut Broodmate) it helps turn my 3/3 Garruk children and most especially the late game Veteran Explorer top decks pretty good clocks on their own. DRS can probably go, and I'm pretty excited to try out Gitaxian Probe!

I don't run Thoughtseizes in the board simply because most of the Sneak Show players in my meta do the "mull to Leyline" durdling and I end up with a ton of dead cards. Honestly I've pretty much given up on the combo matchup, deciding instead to focus on making sure my fair deck matchups are sure wins. With your suggestions I'd probably go:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 REB/Pyro
3 Slaughter Games
2 Extirpate
1 Batterskull - haven't tested this, but I do remember someone saying this is THE SB card against fair decks.
1 Golgari Charm (for the Elves! and just a flex card) or Damnation probably.

Also I do agree with the -1 Kitchen Finks and -1 Punishing Fire. The last tourney before the one posted above I had seen a lot of Burn so I decided to add the Finks in place of the 2nd Witness. Punishing Fire is a bad top deck if you already have one in your yard/hand.:laugh:

[Siiig]

I've been having great results with a slightly modified version of Arianrhod's Jund-colored Nic-Fit list:

The difference is:
Main:
-1 Chameleon Colossus (wasn't doing enough)
-2 Forest
-1 Swamp
-1 Bayou

+1 Scavenging Ooze (MVP! The one thing this deck lacks is decent ways to interact with the graveyard)
+3 Wooded Foothills (for fixing mana, resetting top)

SB:
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Overmaster (to cast a game-winning Scapeshift or GSZ)


I never considered running the fetches in place of the non-red basics. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I may try it out. I also run ooze, and I wonder what you wind up playing against on the regular. He's sweet to have ready to go, but he never champions particularly hard. I personally swapped my second tusk for him. The overmaster looks pretty solid, if they let the wish resolve because they don't know what you're going to cast, they need to have double counter in hand to deal with you, at only 1 r more from you. That seems pretty sweet, especially since 3 MB shift is the new normal.

The only thing I don't love about your list is the lack of a big d00d. Have you given Avenger a shot? I find him very powerful, and it seems like we might have similar metas.

[vearian]

@sherko7
That is exactly what happend to me during a game against miracles. I removed their RIP's then his jaces but lost to a well protected entreat his only entreat in his entire mainboard :P. Thankfully we have abrupt decay now so counterbalance is't such a big threat anymore. Your memoricide should do nicely against CB just have to watch out they don't have that counterspell on hand. And if they have CB on the field they don't have a helm or a jace floating on top so they can counter it.

[Arianrhod]

Don't have the time or the interest to do a full report this time around.

Jupiter was irritating. Paired r1 vs a Reanimator player that rode with me / was my college roommate. Proceeded to lose even after he mulls to 4 g1. He makes a Griselbrand. I double Scapeshift, he double Forces. Real life. I proceed the beat the everliving shit out of Deathblade in r2 then Jund in r3. Beat [something] in r4. Played vs OmniTell in a win-and-in scenario. Game 1 I'd kept a fair-game hand, and lost. G2 I tore him a new asshole with disruption and Chameleon for a quick clock. G3 I know I'm in for it when he looks at his opening hand and announces "this deck is stupid." I kept Explorer, Therapy, REB, Top, Wish, and two lands -- like, that's about as good as it gets on our end. I take a slower line that plays out Top + leaves REB online, then I can Wish for Silence, Silence, Therapy, fb Therapy next turn. He Shows, I REB. He then casually hardcasts Dream Halls and wins. I don't remember the exact sequence of plays, but there was literally nothing I could even do. Last round, as previously noted, I punted to Kich, putting me to X-3 and out of the money.

SCG Philly was even worse.

I start off the day with some delicious tilt, as I get paired vs the only combo player LITERALLY IN SIGHT. He's on Omni. Game 1 I die. G2 I disrupt him early, and then proceed to draw SEVEN LANDS IN A ROW while he's sitting there unable to do anything. He finally hits what he needs and I die. Magic is fun.

R2 I'm paired vs Shardless, which is a bye. I make a slight error where I miscalculate how soon I should be going on the Titan+valakut plan, but I adjust after a turn or two. I have a Titan swinging with a Top active for 2-3 turns, each of which I see between 4-6 fresh cards per turn thanks to shuffles. Do you think I can hit anything that isn't a ramp creature, a (by then) useless Zenith, or a land? I had every non-mountain land out of my deck this game, with an active Valakut. Deed, Wish, Scapeshift, or a few other options basically win me the game on the slot, and my deck was <20 cards by that point. Just couldn't fucking find anything. G2 his curve is t1 Deathrite + Force my Explorer; t2 Liliana, t3 Jace, t4 Goyf + Shardless cascading into Goyf. Real life. I love the part where he keeps in Force of Will.

R3 I played vs Elves, and won. That felt good.

R4 is easily summed up by one sentence: I got Liliana ulted FIVE TIMES IN ONE GAME and was still almost able to dig my way out of it. Played vs Jund. He kept ulting me to keep my mana low; I kept drawing more lands. He eventually rips his final Bloodbraid Elf to kill me the turn before I was going to drop Huntmaster and completely take over the game with it.

R5 I got to demolish Deathblade. Goddamn that matchup is easy for us.

R6 is vs Sneak. This is all I need to say (from my FB status):

"So, I'm playing vs sneak. He has gb, sneak, tarn in hand, three lands in play. Naturally he rips city of traitors. Plays sneak. Sneaks grisel. Draws 14, petal, emrakul, kill you. I had a slaughter in hand to unload and a witness to get it back. Literally no other card wins him that game. Fuck this game."

R7 is some poor guy playing GBW Junk Nic Fit. He wasn't one of ours. I ventilated him in about 10 minutes for the match, then tried to offer help on his list, which he kind of turned up his nose at. I know a thing or two more than you do about Veteran Explorers, kid. Honestly that kind of tilted me more than anything else that happened on the day, which is IMPRESSIVE.

R8 more Elves. My deck shits on me, and I die quickly.

The depths of my tilt are astonishing. Like, logically, I know that it was just a bad day, and it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, and yada yada. But you can only get kicked in the nuts so many times before you start to feel it. Pretty sure that I'm going to be hanging up Scapewish for at least a month as far as major events are concerned. Gonna put in some mileage with some kind of Force of Will deck until I cool off a bit. I'm fucking SICK of Show and Tell and Elves.

------

I will note a few things, though, on the way out. Reanimate legitimately won me a match by itself, where my opponent was at 19 with a Stoneforge in play. I have Scape and a Wish in hand with a Wood Elves in play; he has like a Batterskull in hand and nothing else. I swing with my Wood Elves. If he chumps, I reanimate the Elves and win. If he doesn't, I just win. Felt good. I've been down on Primeval lately, because it feels like I always board him out. But, he did win a few games on the weekend by himself, so meh. Ironically, the two combined vs that Shardless opponent. I slammed Primeval; he pulsed it. Then I reanimated my Titan, and he wasn't able to deal with it until his Goyf grew big enough finally later in the game to eat it. That felt pretty good.

I'm not quitting the archetype or anything of the sort -- I'm still working on a few things, and obv Scape. But I need a break from Scape for a little while, at least with regards to tournament Magic. I'm sure that the moment I sleeve up Force of Will, I'll never play against Show or Elves again and I'll just be angry, but at this point I don't even care. Either I play vs them and win and am happy, or I don't play vs them and lose, but I don't even care that I lose because I'm not playing against Show and Elves.

[litenkatt]

@arianrhod

Ouch, haha I was actually expecting a report like this because usually you're quicker with the reports when you do well.

Combo decks sucks.

[Arianrhod]

@arianrhod

Ouch, haha I was actually expecting a report like this because usually you're quicker with the reports when you do well.

Combo decks sucks.

It was actually going to be coming today regardless of my finish; I was pretty busy yesterday, and wasn't at a computer all day.

[Star|Scream]

@arianrhod

Ouch, haha I was actually expecting a report like this because usually you're quicker with the reports when you do well.

Combo decks sucks.


If you can't beat em, join em

I've been teaching myself ANT and TES just to see how the other side lives.

[Zombie]

I love reading Nic Fit decklists, but when I tried playing Punishing Fit, I just, dunno. It felt like I had to play four turns with a single card in hand that did anything. It felt like this deck was precisely what LSV said sucks about Rock decks, and I constantly kept drawing the wrong half of the deck (admittedly, my regular opponents being Esperblade/UR Delver and me consistently misplaying Carpet kinda helped a ton).

Atm I'm playing Elves which basically occupies the same metagame slot as Nic Fit (as the best "fair" deck that just wins fair matchups but loses to fast combo) but happens to play Elvish Visionary and Ancestral Recall so I get to draw cards. I'm telling you, drawing cards feels GOOD. GSZ being a cantrip feels good. It's the one thing I missed when playing Nic Fit, and it often made me feel like the deck was shitting on me. Though the lockups had nothing on the ones Arianrhod posted, good lord. I would've slammed my deck at a wall if it treated me like that.

[Tao]

That drawing card thing is one of the reasons why I prefer the blue build. Brainstorm is imba and Jace is very good. Especially now with Probe you rarely have the "nothing" draws. In nonblue versions you should play a lot of Sensei's Tops in order to proxy Brainstorm as good as possible, never go below 3 Tops and don't be afraid to run 4. Rector and Scapewish make up for the lack of draw with raw power.

When I was still playing a few ML tournaments for fun I always liked to play a lot of big value creatures in Punishing Nic Fit to make up for the lack of draw and power, like multiple Thragtusks and two or three 6-drops. I also liked Recurring Nightmare but with DR Shaman everywhere that is a bit too much now (though switching Thragtusks with Nightmare was one of the sweeter things in Magic). The meta has changed a bit since then and Abrupt Decay became a thing but in general that is my way of thinking about the strengths of Punishing Nic Fit. For reference:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9878&iddeck=72025
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9952&iddeck=72549

[ZimAshe]

Could you imagine how broken this deck would be if Skullclamp were legal?
In the old Extended days of Rock that was the card that made the deck go from good to busted.

[Ayotte]

Could you imagine how broken this deck would be if Skullclamp were legal?
In the old Extended days of Rock that was the card that made the deck go from good to busted.

I think if Skullclamp were legal, Nic Fit would be pretty low on the list of broken decks.

[Zombie]

My pointy-eared little gits would like to have a word with you.

[Arianrhod]

I think if Skullclamp were legal, Nic Fit would be pretty low on the list of broken decks.

/barn. Nic Fit would be VERY happy, but it would also be the least of the format's problems.

[mini1337s]

I never considered running the fetches in place of the non-red basics. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I may try it out. I also run ooze, and I wonder what you wind up playing against on the regular. He's sweet to have ready to go, but he never champions particularly hard. I personally swapped my second tusk for him. The overmaster looks pretty solid, if they let the wish resolve because they don't know what you're going to cast, they need to have double counter in hand to deal with you, at only 1 r more from you. That seems pretty sweet, especially since 3 MB shift is the new normal.

The only thing I don't love about your list is the lack of a big d00d. Have you given Avenger a shot? I find him very powerful, and it seems like we might have similar metas.

The Foothills have been fantastic for 2 reasons:
1) They give you more ways to reset Top, particularly ways that don't involve casting a spell/creature.
2) In situations where you have a Valakut or 2 on board, drawing them off the top means you can pull out a Badlands/Taiga/Stomping Ground/Mountain rather than being the victim of your draw.
Honestly, I want to run 4, I'm just having trouble finding out if there is another land I can cut. The only land I can think about cutting is Phyrexian Tower, but it has such useful synergy with Veteran Explorer. I feel like my manabase is really at the limit of where you can be (aside from Tower) to still remain effective with Scapeshift.

As for a big d00D (lol), while occasionally it was sweet (ran a 1 of Avenger of Zendikar), I found that it was generally win-more. I found Chameleon Collosus to be the same thing, which is why I cut him for a utility creature (Scavenging Ooze). In all honesty, I want to find a reasonably costed creature that effectively deals with Enchantments/Artifacts/Lands (Glacial Chasm!) moreso than a card like Avenger. Acidic Slime fits the bill, but 5 mana for a 2/2 tends to not fly so much. 2 cards I've considered are Woodfall Primus and Sylvan Primordial (that's right!), but both are really mana heavy. The one thing I miss from playing Rector fit is Necrotic + Harmonic Sliver and Sun Titan. While not the easiest thing to setup, it was just sooooo backbreaking when you got there.

As for my meta, I play IRL in an area that allows proxies, so you see a lot of flavor of the month decks (SCG T16s really), but they tend to lean towards Tarmogoyf based aggro control decks (Canadian, Jund, Team America). I test on Cockatrice too, and see a lot of the same thing.

[Ayotte]

I've been hating Scapewish lately, which is sad, because I had a very good run with it a couple months ago going 3-1 in like 5 local tournaments in a row (usually losing to the same ANT player) and then top 8'ing a 1k. After that, I switched decks and recently rebuilt it and am not liking it. Now, I've gone 0-3 in three in a row, with most of the matches lost because of the deck's inconsistency. You have to draw green and black mana in a deck with no/few fetchlands along with ramp and disruption in order to even compete, which is a pretty tall order. When it works, it's freaking awesome, but it feels so inconsistent playing against decks with brainstorm, etc..

During that winning streak, I removed a couple catacombs for stomping grounds because I had a couple games where I didn't have enough mountains left to kill someone.

I hate the amount of opening hands I draw that have all the wrong colors of mana. There are now too many mountains for the deck to be consistent.

My current manabase is:

3 Bayou
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Valakut
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run (25th land, doesn't really count)

I think if I could find some room for more fetchlands, it would be better, but it's hard to find what to cut. I'm apprehensive about cutting non-mountain basics as above. I want to get rid of the stomping grounds again, but I'm afraid that I'll end up in the same spot as before.

[hymntotourcock]

My current manabase is:

3 Bayou
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Valakut
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run (25th land, doesn't really count)

I think if I could find some room for more fetchlands, it would be better, but it's hard to find what to cut. I'm apprehensive about cutting non-mountain basics as above. I want to get rid of the stomping grounds again, but I'm afraid that I'll end up in the same spot as before.

I'm new to this archetype so forgive my ignorance, but is Phyrexian Tower really essential? Is it still good even if you don't see a Veteran Explorer? 4 mana seems pretty reasonable turn 2, but what about turns 3, 4, etc? How often do you sit on a Tower with no Vets in play? You could also consider going up to 26 lands.

[mini1337s]

I'm new to this archetype so forgive my ignorance, but is Phyrexian Tower really essential? Is it still good even if you don't see a Veteran Explorer? 4 mana seems pretty reasonable turn 2, but what about turns 3, 4, etc? How often do you sit on a Tower with no Vets in play? You could also consider going up to 26 lands.

I'm fairly new to the Jund version of Nic-Fit, but I think you might be right. Phyrexian Tower was an absolute necessity in Junk colored versions where you ran Sun Titan (with Eternal Witness, etc) and Academy Rector, but it has a lot less synergy here. Granted you can use it to ramp off of your Wood Elves/Huntermaster tokens in addition to Veteran Explorer, but it might not be enough. I do like that is functions like flashback from Cabal Therapy, giving you a 5th sac outlet.

Maybe the manabase could be revised to something like:

LANDS [25]
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp

That gives you 12 mountains, and 6 fetchlands that can bring out basic mountain. You lose a basic, moving to 5, which may be wrong. Too tight? Too greedy?

[nedleeds]

Why play Veteran Explorer with only 5 basics?

[Ayotte]

Why play Veteran Explorer with only 5 basics?

5 basics is on the low end, but realistically you can only plan on getting one explorer off at reasonable speed anyway.

[Siiig]

LANDS [25]
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp

That gives you 12 mountains, and 6 fetchlands that can bring out basic mountain. You lose a basic, moving to 5, which may be wrong. Too tight? Too greedy?

I've had many upon many corner plays where I won off of vet pop #3. Reanimate targeting Vet has come up for me more than once--and Phy Tower is always my sac outlet in those cases.

It's a little ironic you're considering cutting it, and I actually added a second one in. The on-demand instant speed sac outlet is good stuff, and the turn 2-3 plays are over the top. Turn 2 Swagtusk or Huntmaster ftw.

[Arianrhod]

I've had many upon many corner plays where I won off of vet pop #3. Reanimate targeting Vet has come up for me more than once--and Phy Tower is always my sac outlet in those cases.

It's a little ironic you're considering cutting it, and I actually added a second one in. The on-demand instant speed sac outlet is good stuff, and the turn 2-3 plays are over the top. Turn 2 Swagtusk or Huntmaster ftw.

/barn. I wouldn't add the 2nd Tower, but I wouldn't cut the 1 that's there either. It's randomly very useful. The Sun Titan/Rector lists definitely wanted it as a 2-of, because they had more things to abuse the sac outlet. Scape doesn't really, but what it does have is enough for 1.

@Adding Foothills to the list. This isn't a terrible idea, but the question is where they come from. I could see putting in a 1-of in place of 1 Forest, which puts you down to 3 Forest 3 Mountain 2 Swamp = 8 basics. I wouldn't go below 8 basics in a Nic Fit deck. I used to run 7 in Rector for quite a while, but I found myself getting randomly screwed out of value.

Stomping Grounds, as I've said for a while now, are just too critical. Having 6 Taigas is crucial. Basically, the mana base breaks down as such:

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
-----------------12 mountain-type cards for Valakut [red sources]

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
-----------------9 basics for Explorer/Tribe-Elder.

4 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
-----------------13 Forests for Wood Elves [green sources]

2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
-----------------8 Swamps [black sources]

Black is a little low, and has always been historically, which HAS cost me games.

Now, going below 12 mountains is poor, because Valakut. 12 mountains is the lowest number of mountains that is feasible if you expect your Taigas to get Surgicaled (leaves you with 8, which means you can have 2 in play to use and still be able to shift 6 into play to kill).

The cuttable lands are 1 Forest (keeps 13 green, bumps to 13 red and 9 black; but lowers basics to 8); possibly one Bayou (which only really gives you a shuffle and +1 red source in exchange for -1 prime target for Wood Elves); and possibly the Phyrexian Tower (which gives +1 to all sources, but reduces your nut-draw potential, weakens you to StP, and removes your instant-speed Veteran sac-outlet [which means Valakut is less likely to be used at instant speed]).

There's benefits and drawbacks to all of these. The Forest is the least damaging, and is an easy cut for 1 Foothills. Having the 3rd Bayou is probably worth it, because you want to keep your Bayou numbers high for Wood Elves, since Bayou is the most common fetch therein. Bayou is also the land that we most want to see in our opening hand, because it is the colors of Therapy and Explorer. Removing Phyrexian Tower is the most damaging and the least "good" option. Most turn 3 kills involve Tower somewhere, and being able to kill manlands with Valakut at instant speed by saccing Explorers to Tower is a trick that I've used more than once. Additionally, there are few things that break the Jund matchup as wide open in our favor as opening with Explorer into Tower into Thrag/Hunts/Colossus (they really hate Colossus, lol).

[Siiig]

/barn. I wouldn't add the 2nd Tower, but I wouldn't cut the 1 that's there either. It's randomly very useful. The Sun Titan/Rector lists definitely wanted it as a 2-of, because they had more things to abuse the sac outlet. Scape doesn't really, but what it does have is enough for 1.

@Adding Foothills to the list. This isn't a terrible idea, but the question is where they come from. I could see putting in a 1-of in place of 1 Forest, which puts you down to 3 Forest 3 Mountain 2 Swamp = 8 basics. I wouldn't go below 8 basics in a Nic Fit deck. I used to run 7 in Rector for quite a while, but I found myself getting randomly screwed out of value.

Stomping Grounds, as I've said for a while now, are just too critical. Having 6 Taigas is crucial. Basically, the mana base breaks down as such:

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
-----------------12 mountain-type cards for Valakut [red sources]

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
-----------------9 basics for Explorer/Tribe-Elder.

4 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
-----------------13 Forests for Wood Elves [green sources]

2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
-----------------8 Swamps [black sources]

Black is a little low, and has always been historically, which HAS cost me games.

Now, going below 12 mountains is poor, because Valakut. 12 mountains is the lowest number of mountains that is feasible if you expect your Taigas to get Surgicaled (leaves you with 8, which means you can have 2 in play to use and still be able to shift 6 into play to kill).

The cuttable lands are 1 Forest (keeps 13 green, bumps to 13 red and 9 black; but lowers basics to 8); possibly one Bayou (which only really gives you a shuffle and +1 red source in exchange for -1 prime target for Wood Elves); and possibly the Phyrexian Tower (which gives +1 to all sources, but reduces your nut-draw potential, weakens you to StP, and removes your instant-speed Veteran sac-outlet [which means Valakut is less likely to be used at instant speed]).

There's benefits and drawbacks to all of these. The Forest is the least damaging, and is an easy cut for 1 Foothills. Having the 3rd Bayou is probably worth it, because you want to keep your Bayou numbers high for Wood Elves, since Bayou is the most common fetch therein. Bayou is also the land that we most want to see in our opening hand, because it is the colors of Therapy and Explorer. Removing Phyrexian Tower is the most damaging and the least "good" option. Most turn 3 kills involve Tower somewhere, and being able to kill manlands with Valakut at instant speed by saccing Explorers to Tower is a trick that I've used more than once. Additionally, there are few things that break the Jund matchup as wide open in our favor as opening with Explorer into Tower into Thrag/Hunts/Colossus (they really hate Colossus, lol).

Any of the longer term shift players in here know the benefit of the Tower. You refered to Forest #4, which is what I cut in place of Tower #2. I believe I still have a verdant in place of Bayou #3, because I need the colors and I actually still don't have one x.X; Something I've considered to combat the surgical play is actually cutting a Taiga in place of a 3rd Stomping Ground... #Tuning.

[Star|Scream]

mini1337s: Can I ask why, if you want to use fetches, you are using RG fetches and not BG fetches? Why do you want to fetch basic mountains?

If you are playing around wasteland, turns 1 and 2 you want to fetch forest and swamp UNLESS you need to t2 wish into t3 pyroclasm. Consider the perfect scenario: T1 catacombs, swamp, therapy. T2 catacombs, forest, explorer. Sac explorer and get forest, mountain--perfect basic manabase. With foothills, you'll need to fetch a basic turn 1.

I feel like you only really need mountains once you have 4 lands out. By then you're not as vulnerable to wasteland.

Also, you want to have as few mountains as possible on the battlefield while setting up for Scapeshift.

[Osmin]

What about playing 2x Phyrexian Tower with new legend rule in Scapewish?

[Tao]

To avoid confusion about what we are talking, would it be a good idea to call GBR lists with Valakut Scapewish and GBR lists without it Jund Fit?


Yeah I need to pick those up! Meanwhile I just remembered I have a couple of Memoricides from when I played straight GB Nic Fit so those will do for now. I agree with your last statement about Slaughter Games being the absolute weapon against Miracles. Most of the games I played against Miracles I always manage to get the 2 Slaughter Games off (RiP and Jace) only to be later destroyed by a well protected Entreat. More Slaughter Games then for sure!:smile:



I will definitely try Probe, but probably not run the Trops! I don't have them! Kessig Wolf-Run was pretty decent for me as due to the lack of finishers (I cut Broodmate) it helps turn my 3/3 Garruk children and most especially the late game Veteran Explorer top decks pretty good clocks on their own. DRS can probably go, and I'm pretty excited to try out Gitaxian Probe!

I don't run Thoughtseizes in the board simply because most of the Sneak Show players in my meta do the "mull to Leyline" durdling and I end up with a ton of dead cards. Honestly I've pretty much given up on the combo matchup, deciding instead to focus on making sure my fair deck matchups are sure wins. With your suggestions I'd probably go:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 REB/Pyro
3 Slaughter Games
2 Extirpate
1 Batterskull - haven't tested this, but I do remember someone saying this is THE SB card against fair decks.
1 Golgari Charm (for the Elves! and just a flex card) or Damnation probably.

Also I do agree with the -1 Kitchen Finks and -1 Punishing Fire. The last tourney before the one posted above I had seen a lot of Burn so I decided to add the Finks in place of the 2nd Witness. Punishing Fire is a bad top deck if you already have one in your yard/hand.:laugh:

I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. But I am fairly new to Probe as well. Out of curiosity I have made a few Cockatrice games with a cobbled together Jund Fit list with Probes and they were still amazing. I wished I had one in every opening hand, and especially in those with Therapy. But running 4 without ever being able to pay for them might be too much. Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

3 Fires seems enough, it makes me confident that we agree on that. The games go long, you have Top and Probes cycle, too.

The SB looks good. I thought about Plague for the Elves and Maverick/D&T matchups but Charm is good, too. A turn faster against Elves and they don't see it coming.

[mini1337s]

mini1337s: Can I ask why, if you want to use fetches, you are using RG fetches and not BG fetches? Why do you want to fetch basic mountains?

If you are playing around wasteland, turns 1 and 2 you want to fetch forest and swamp UNLESS you need to t2 wish into t3 pyroclasm. Consider the perfect scenario: T1 catacombs, swamp, therapy. T2 catacombs, forest, explorer. Sac explorer and get forest, mountain--perfect basic manabase. With foothills, you'll need to fetch a basic turn 1.

I feel like you only really need mountains once you have 4 lands out. By then you're not as vulnerable to wasteland.

Also, you want to have as few mountains as possible on the battlefield while setting up for Scapeshift.
Bear in mind, I'm new to this version. I've added Wooded Foothills over Verdant Catacombs so I can fetch out basic Mountain in circumstances where I have Valakut on board. I haven't found situations where I want basic swamp over Bayou, but that could be my limited experience.
Really, the added benefit of resetting tops is why I've added 3-4 fetchlands. Nothing is worse that needing to dig, activating top, and seeing 3 random non-fetch lands.

[Kayradis]

I do like where you're heading with that!

[Star|Scream]

Bear in mind, I'm new to this version. I've added Wooded Foothills over Verdant Catacombs so I can fetch out basic Mountain in circumstances where I have Valakut on board. I haven't found situations where I want basic swamp over Bayou, but that could be my limited experience.
Really, the added benefit of resetting tops is why I've added 3-4 fetchlands. Nothing is worse that needing to dig, activating top, and seeing 3 random non-fetch lands.

If you have valakut out and it hasn't been wasted, then you should have no problem fetching a nonbasic mountain with catacombs.

Also there are so many mountains in the deck, that being cutoff from red really shouldn't happen that often. I believe that the order of color importance is GBR, especially in the first few turns. Ideally the only time you'd ever need a red source is to cast a burning wish to find your scapeshift. Of course Huntmaster and Slaughter games require it, but not till you have 4 lands (usually.)

[Siiig]

Just to let you guys know, at the very least both myself, Kevin, and Architect have played with / tested / considered fetch lands. I never thought of dropping non-mountains to stuff them in.

Catacombs / Foothills are redundant. Catacombs is probably slightly better, more important than the waste comment is the likely hood you still have a basic mountain left in your deck when you smash the foothills late game with valakut active. I can only remember a single instance when I've been able to... say... double lighting bolt people with a veteran explorer.

I think the center of discussion should be explore/exploration. Because I want that. But I'm to lazy to just test it =P

And Prismatic Omen, I want that too.

To jump back a step, Phy tower with the new rule is *shrug*, it doesn't really enable anything we couldn't already do. Unlike Opal, we can't play 2 phy towers on turn 2 to double smash vets for crazy mana excel.

[Snief]

I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. [...] Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

Does anyone have a BUG Nic Fit list? I only found some weird looking lists with Gifts Ungiven and the one Arianrhod has linked in his sig. I would love to test a blue version, but except Jace and Brainstorm and Probe aparently, what does a blue list look like?

[Tao]

Qweerios has posted a good list here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-%28GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29&p=732005&viewfull=1#post732005

If you didn't follow the discussion it can be summarized quickly: I would play a few Carpets in the SB, ~2 things that can kill a Tombstalker (Damnation, Pulse) instead of the 4-4 Decay/Damnation split and maybe a fourth Jace. Qweerios says these changes would not be good.

[TheArchitect]

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.

[mini1337s]

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.
I can get behind this. What about:
-1 Forest
-1 Mountain

+1 Stomping Ground
+1 Verdant Catacombs

[mini1337s]

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.
I can get behind this. What about:
-1 Forest
-1 Mountain

+1 Stomping Ground
+1 Verdant Catacombs

[TheArchitect]

That's probably right. I think these days you might be able to cut the Volrath's stronghold for another fetch too.

[sherko7]

To avoid confusion about what we are talking, would it be a good idea to call GBR lists with Valakut Scapewish and GBR lists without it Jund Fit?



I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. But I am fairly new to Probe as well. Out of curiosity I have made a few Cockatrice games with a cobbled together Jund Fit list with Probes and they were still amazing. I wished I had one in every opening hand, and especially in those with Therapy. But running 4 without ever being able to pay for them might be too much. Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

3 Fires seems enough, it makes me confident that we agree on that. The games go long, you have Top and Probes cycle, too.

The SB looks good. I thought about Plague for the Elves and Maverick/D&T matchups but Charm is good, too. A turn faster against Elves and they don't see it coming.

Thanks for more advice! I'll try playing the Probes this weekend, we'll see. I've cut down on the Finks and added the 2nd Witness back. Cutting down to 3 Fires will definitely be my next move. It feels like a really bad top deck once you already have one online. Plus, with all the removal I'm running it sometimes just comes down to a choice of whether I wanna Decay the Goyf or kill it with P.Fire. P.Fire almost always wins out, but see the redundancy?

Anyway, what do you think about a singleton Goyf? My issues with combo is that sometimes I can disrupt their first attempt at going off but my clock is still nowhere to be found. Huntmaster/Thrun will sometimes come in a turn or so too late and by then they'll be trying to go off again. Goyf might help with that. I do understand that he gets swept by Deed but it might be something I'm willing to overlook.

Also abot BUG Fit, I might be willing to invest on that but what does it get you that Scapewish doesn't. Scapewish is honestly my least favorite version of the deck, but I do admit that its obviously the "best one" as far as tournament results go.

[Arianrhod]

@Sherko -- hold out for my next creation, then =)

Also, Goyf is poor vs combo. Like, Goyf decks often board out Goyfs for disruption because he just isn't enough of a clock vs them. Delver is the stand-out example of "enough" of a clock....Goyf is not. If you want to piss off combo in creature form, you could try to Zenith up Teeg even though you can't cast him / he shuts off Slaughter Games (aka, I wouldn't recommend it). The only other anti-combo green creature options are weird stuff like Willow Satyr (which is terrible now that Show and Tell has moved to Omni), or Ichneumon Druid....which gets casually Abrupt Decayed EoT. Your best bet for creature clocks vs combo are Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus -- both are quick clocks that are resilient to a combo deck's feeble attempts at stalling.

[hymntotourcock]

Could someone be so kind as to critique this list? This is my first attempt so please feel free to punch through. I want to splash white mainly for Sun Titan shenanigans (and possibly Vindicate).


Creatures 9
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Harmonic Sliver
?

Spells 22
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe (unsure about this, just seems too sweet to pass up)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land 25
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

And room left over for awesome shit I overlooked.

Other cards for consideration:
Hornet Queen: its mana cost is pretty steep but it trades with Emrakul and Griselbrand. Maybe SB card?
Gaea's Revenge: haste damage on an ideally empty board sounds sweet
Swords to Plowshares: we still need spot removal right?

Other thoughts:
1. Has anyone tried KotR and Armageddon here? Seems like it could be devastating.
2. Is 1 Sun Titan enough? I considered Prime Titan but I don't really have too fancy a manabase.
3. This deck's obvious disadvantage to Scapeshift builds is a lack of Wish board. Could this be compensated for by tutoring? Infernal Tutor, Entomb? Perhaps I have too great a love affair with Loam
4. What is the average amount of mana you have to cast creatures in your games? I imagine the sweet spot would be around 5-7? What's the maximum CMC we should bother with?
5. Can we really not support Wasteland? Feels so dirty :(
6. Also considered Hymn, is this not a popular choice?
Thanks guys/gals/ghouls

[Qweerios]

Goyf and combo has nothing to do with a "clock". The reason why Goyf isn't great against combo is because you have to tap 2 lands during your turn for a card that does nothing but give a very loose time limit to your combo opponent.

As for Gitaxian Probe in non-blue lists, I think it isn't necessary. The card essentially makes up for a flaw in Cabal Therapy and can quickly become a liability. However, I highly recommend Wall of Blossoms, great card with Sun Titan lists and a good Therapy fodder as well.

[sherko7]

@Sherko -- hold out for my next creation, then =)

Also, Goyf is poor vs combo. Like, Goyf decks often board out Goyfs for disruption because he just isn't enough of a clock vs them. Delver is the stand-out example of "enough" of a clock....Goyf is not. If you want to piss off combo in creature form, you could try to Zenith up Teeg even though you can't cast him / he shuts off Slaughter Games (aka, I wouldn't recommend it). The only other anti-combo green creature options are weird stuff like Willow Satyr (which is terrible now that Show and Tell has moved to Omni), or Ichneumon Druid....which gets casually Abrupt Decayed EoT. Your best bet for creature clocks vs combo are Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus -- both are quick clocks that are resilient to a combo deck's feeble attempts at stalling.

Next creation, yes please :D

Willow Satyr is kinda cute, might try running that LOL.


Goyf and combo has nothing to do with a "clock". The reason why Goyf isn't great against combo is because you have to tap 2 lands during your turn for a card that does nothing but give a very loose time limit to your combo opponent.

As for Gitaxian Probe in non-blue lists, I think it isn't necessary. The card essentially makes up for a flaw in Cabal Therapy and can quickly become a liability. However, I highly recommend Wall of Blossoms, great card with Sun Titan lists and a good Therapy fodder as well.

Your arguments on Goyf are pretty convincing. Since I don't have them, then probably won't bother testing that for now. :laugh:

I'm planning on just giving up on the combo matchup for the time being and focus on beating the faces of fair decks. The 4 blasts will probably be the only combo hate I'll be packing as well as Slaughter Games and Extirpates. Their applications are wider anyway.

[Tao]

Could someone be so kind as to critique this list? This is my first attempt so please feel free to punch through. I want to splash white mainly for Sun Titan shenanigans (and possibly Vindicate).


Creatures 9
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Harmonic Sliver
?

Spells 22
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe (unsure about this, just seems too sweet to pass up)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land 25
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

And room left over for awesome shit I overlooked.

Other cards for consideration:
Hornet Queen: its mana cost is pretty steep but it trades with Emrakul and Griselbrand. Maybe SB card?
Gaea's Revenge: haste damage on an ideally empty board sounds sweet
Swords to Plowshares: we still need spot removal right?

Other thoughts:
1. Has anyone tried KotR and Armageddon here? Seems like it could be devastating.
2. Is 1 Sun Titan enough? I considered Prime Titan but I don't really have too fancy a manabase.
3. This deck's obvious disadvantage to Scapeshift builds is a lack of Wish board. Could this be compensated for by tutoring? Infernal Tutor, Entomb? Perhaps I have too great a love affair with Loam
4. What is the average amount of mana you have to cast creatures in your games? I imagine the sweet spot would be around 5-7? What's the maximum CMC we should bother with?
5. Can we really not support Wasteland? Feels so dirty :(
6. Also considered Hymn, is this not a popular choice?
Thanks guys/gals/ghouls

In general:

- you play 3 lands too many if you don't use Valakut or other value lands; 22 is the safe number, 21 would be greedy
- if you have access I would play a Tropical Island for Probe
- you need more threats in general; 1 Thragtusk is a good start; for example you could try a second Witness and a Garruk Primal Hunter

your questions:

1. KotR dies to Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares and it would be your only target for these spells. Armageddon is a bad idea because your goal is to have many lands on the table.

2. Like I said above one Sun Titan is not enough in terms of cards that win the game. Sigarada is amazing but you need a bit more. Thragtusk, Garruk, Witness could replace the 3 lands you have too much. Prime doesn't do anything in your list at this point. You could run "Twin Towers" (1 Volrath's Stonghold + your Phyrexian Tower) to make it useful.

3. The wishboard is no real advantage. It is only good in Valakut because it can find Scapeshifts so don't worry. The only playable tutor in Nic Fit is Diabolic Intent. You can play that as a one-off if you want but Tutors are in general not necessary, filtering with Top is better.

4. Maximum CMC is probably 6 or 7.

5. We give them Basic lands. The principle of the deck is that most Legacy decks can't do anything anyway with the Mana we give them. Wasteland is counterproductive. If you play with Titan you can run one Dust Bowl to get rid of annoying things like Riptide Laboratory, Karakas (with Clique) or 12-post lands.

6. Hymn is a great card. Most current deck lists don't find the room for it but no one would blame you for playing 2-3 Hymns.

[mini1337s]

I think the center of discussion should be explore/exploration. Because I want that. But I'm to lazy to just test it =P
Tried Explore at the Legacy local on Thursday.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift
3 Explore

4 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
3 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Collective Voyage
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Overmaster


Went 2-1 snagging 4th out of 14 people. It was ok, but I feel like my land count, even at 25 was too light. I won 4 of the 6 games I played, losing 2 games in the first round. There was never a time where I resolved Explore and laid a land that I felt ahead.
Granted I just took out the Wood Elves and Elders, which could be wrong in the first place, but it felt fine as a gut pull.

[Patrunkenphat7]

So Young Pyromancer seems like it could have a home in Jund Nic Fit. I don't play this deck though, so I don't know... Thoughts?

[Kich867]

So Young Pyromancer seems like it could have a home in Jund Nic Fit. I don't play this deck though, so I don't know... Thoughts?

I mean, what's that card doing for the deck? It doesn't play an overwhelming number of cheap spells, Pernicious deed will 100% kill it and all it's tokens, it has super low impact--if you don't mind me asking, what makes you say that it might have a home in Nic Fit? It seems like it doesn't meet any criteria of being: high impact, dodge deed, relevant comes into play ability.

[from Cairo]

People want to find a shell to use it and Cabal Therapy together. This deck and Dredge are the only two that have any success utilizing a playset of said card. Young Pyromancer is too low impact for Legacy in general and as pointed out has awful synergy with this deck's plan.

[Patrunkenphat7]

If you keep on the Deed plan, it's obviously not good. What I feel like makes this deck is that it is GBx and plays Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. It is also fine to play when you are playing Innocent Blood (which is a synergistic card with Veteran Explorer). I don't think the problem with Young Pyromancer is that it is too low impact... I mean it is a 2/1 for 1R that gives you 3 1/1's over the course of a couple turns. The problem is finding a shell that has enough synergies with it. I think this deck definitely has some synergies, but I have no idea if it is enough, and I also don't know if this deck is good enough to begin with... So who knows.

[HoneyT]

The best shell for Young Pyromancer is going to be something akin to Sam Black's Zombardment deck. Not the ramp/deed deck. Young Pyromancer does exactly zero things to further Nic Fit's game plan.

[Kich867]

If you keep on the Deed plan, it's obviously not good. What I feel like makes this deck is that it is GBx and plays Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. It is also fine to play when you are playing Innocent Blood (which is a synergistic card with Veteran Explorer). I don't think the problem with Young Pyromancer is that it is too low impact... I mean it is a 2/1 for 1R that gives you 3 1/1's over the course of a couple turns. The problem is finding a shell that has enough synergies with it. I think this deck definitely has some synergies, but I have no idea if it is enough, and I also don't know if this deck is good enough to begin with... So who knows.

In what world is trading the Deed plan for this creature ever worth it?

[Patrunkenphat7]

In what world is trading the Deed plan for this creature ever worth it?

I'm not talking about trading Deed for a creature. Really I was just starting with Veteran Explorer, Young Pyromancer, and Cabal Therapy. I have no idea what the rest of the deck would look like other than some fatties to ramp into.

Also Young Pyromancer is probably not that powerful in a Zombardment list because of the low number of instants and sorceries. I could see it being decent in that deck though, but maybe as like a 2-of or something.

[jbone2016]

so...
Dark Prophecy - BBB
Rare
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control dies, you draw a card and lose 1 life.

Thoughts?

[Arianrhod]

Triple black is virtually impossible, and it suffers from the same problem that killed Phyrexian Arena as an option: Abrupt Decay.

[xieyun006]

So I'm looking at putting a Green Black Nic Fit list together, and I have a few questions.

Firstly I notice lots of lists run Lilly of the veil, how necessary is she for this deck? I've tested her out a few times, and it seems I only use her for her as a three mana edict, since there usually isn't anything in my hand that I want to get rid of.

And I've also seen alot of Garruk Relentless or Garruk Primal hunters as well which would be the better one for the deck? I haven't tested too much so I haven't gotten to see either in action. Any opinion is welcome.

The current list that I'm testing:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou

[MrIggins]

The advantage that GB Nic Fit has over the other versions is that you have more room to run disruption in the form of discard, so you can often have more game against combo. Liliana of the Veil is one of your best cards against decks like Show and Tell, which are usually a pretty poor matchup for the deck. Since that deck seems to be everywhere, I wouldn't play less than 2 Liliana, but if you really don't like the card you can try more Hymn to Tourach instead, or some Thoughtseizes. I wouldn't drop much disruption since that's the main advantage of that build of the deck.

Regarding Garruks, I think Primal Hunter is WAY better than Relentless. For one, it can't get Abrupt Decayed if it flips. 3/3s are way more threatening than 2/2s of course, but it also puts more pressure on opponents by ticking up loyalty as it puts creatures into play. Drawing cards is not irrelevant.

Regarding your list, I don't like Master of the Wild Hunt, I remember liking Wickerbough Elder more than Acidic Slime in GB Fit, Kitchen Finks should probably become Thragtusk, and I really don't think you want Dryad Arbors. If the Dark Depths combo has been good for you, that's awesome, but if it isn't then I would consider 2 Treetop Village. Titan into 2 Treetops was the best way to put immediate pressure on the opponent when I was still playing GB.

I hope some of this was helpful!

[sherko7]

A disappointing 2-3-1 finish today. Got slow played by a BURN (!) player after I had Batterskull online and swinging every turn game 3. We went to time and got a draw. Tilt :(

R1: ANT (0-2)

Nothing much to say here really. Got beat on turn 2 both games. I mull'd to 5 on G2 with a hand of Mountain, GSZ, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Forest. Had to keep. Died.

R2: Burn (2-1)

Lost G1 off of triple Goblin Guide. Managed to stabilize G2 and G3 off of Huntmasters and Thragtusks as usual.

R3: ANT (!) (2-1)

Raped on G1 turn 2. T2 I managed to draw Duress + Cabal Therapy on my opening and had disrupted him enough. A turn 4 Slaughter Games naming Tendrils and he scooped. T3 had double Cabal Therapy, Duress and Extirpate in over 3 turns. Important thing to note is that I had kept a no black mana hand as I had a Carpet of Flowers. True enough, he played an Island and I managed to piggy back his lands to get the black mana I need. Huntmaster finished the job.

R4: Burn (1-1)

Got slow played... My brother who was watching from the side told me that she was holding a MOUNTAIN once and just sat there pretending to count. She was obviously slow playing mid game 3 really. Sad. I was 1 turn from winning when the 5th turn ended.

R5: 12Post (0-2)

I was on tilt. Nothing much to say here. I got raped by Eldrazis. No plays of note from my end, just tilted and died.

R6: Sneak Show (1-2)

Managed to win game 1! I knew he was playing Sneak Show as he was sitting beside me during match 1. He Spell Pierced my Cabal Therapy T1, and I managed to flashback it on T2 through Veteran Explorer and hit the SnT. He hardcasted Sneak Attack but didn't have the monsters. I broke another Veteran Explorer and dropped Prime Time. He was down to 10 when he finally landed a Griselbrand. He immediately drew 7 going down to 3 and in response I hit him with P. Fire :P You don't see that very often! Games 2 and 3 were the usual SnT beating.

Here's the list I played:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Damnation

The Damnation on the board was supposed to have been for Virtue's Ruin as there's a lot of Mav in our meta. Wasn't able to face even one of 'em sadly. Anyway, when I left the scene kabards had just gone 5-1 with Punishing Nic Fit and was waiting for the top 8 match! :tongue:

[TheArchitect]

So I'm looking at putting a Green Black Nic Fit list together, and I have a few questions.

Firstly I notice lots of lists run Lilly of the veil, how necessary is she for this deck? I've tested her out a few times, and it seems I only use her for her as a three mana edict, since there usually isn't anything in my hand that I want to get rid of.

And I've also seen alot of Garruk Relentless or Garruk Primal hunters as well which would be the better one for the deck? I haven't tested too much so I haven't gotten to see either in action. Any opinion is welcome.

The current list that I'm testing:
list...

23 lands and no back up ramp engine seems low for the amount of utility lands you are running. I like the idea behind Ghost Quarters, but that really needs to be wasteland. It is strictly better. The depths/stage combo seems good. Dryad Arbor sounds great on paper, but you will find he is just bad in this deck.

2 Tops is not good, you need at least 3.

Liliana you either want to see every game, or never. Shes not a good mid/late game draw. That's why I only like her as a 3/4 of or a 0 of. If you want to put both players into topdeck mod every game, run 3 of her. If not, run 0.

Primal hunter is amazing. He win games singlehandedly. I actually think relentless is actually really bad in nic fit. All he does 99% of the time is make 2/2 wolf tokens till he dies or trade with a delver. He is always boltable, and is actually worse when he flips since he gives up his protection/removal and becomes decayable.

If I were playing GB and wanted to be on the depths/stage plan with the upcoming rules change, I would play something this:

3 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

[Tao]

@Sherko: No Probes? Would have liked to hear how they did. They also would have been amazing against all these Combo decks.

@burn opponent: That is NOT slowplay, that is stalling and stalling IS cheating and punished by DQ and further penalties. That difference is important to know. Never be afraid to call a judge and do it as soon as you realize what is going on. People are too shy about that. You wouldn't wait for the opponent to draw her third extra card before you call a judge either.

@Stage/Depths: My instinct says that this is not worth it. A giant GSZ is usually enough to win anyway and colorless lands really hurt. Also it is very slow. You pay 7 the first turn, then the second turn you make the 20/20 (if they don't have Wasteland) and only on the third turn after paying 7 you win. Two Treetop Villages win just as fast.

[sherko7]

@Sherko: No Probes? Would have liked to hear how they did. They also would have been amazing against all these Combo decks.

@burn opponent: That is NOT slowplay, that is stalling and stalling IS cheating and punished by DQ and further penalties. That difference is important to know. Never be afraid to call a judge and do it as soon as you realize what is going on. People are too shy about that. You wouldn't wait for the opponent to draw her third extra card before you call a judge either.

@Stage/Depths: My instinct says that this is not worth it. A giant GSZ is usually enough to win anyway and colorless lands really hurt. Also it is very slow. You pay 7 the first turn, then the second turn you make the 20/20 (if they don't have Wasteland) and only on the third turn after paying 7 you win. Two Treetop Villages win just as fast.

Wasn't able to get the Probes before the tournament sadly. But I felt my main deck changes were pretty good (the Liliana most especially). Used to drop Lili because Nic Fit wanted answers in hand. I only resolved them thrice (twice against each of my Burn opponents, and once against Storm) and she was great! Plus, we have free discard courtesy of P. Fire!

I am not really sure how to call out stalling. Honestly yes I am a bit shy to call it out because she's one of the few people I know, but I was left rather pissed after the game especially when my friend and my bro told me about what they saw. How do I prove they're stalling? Do I just call a judge and tell them I think she's stalling or something?

[xieyun006]

MrIggins, TheArchitect

Thank you for your advice, the comparisons that you made are very solid! With the discard package I will most likely try a set of thought seizes over hymn/Lilly. I didn't have any combo decks available to test against, but I like the synergy between thought seize and therapy, between the two not many cards are safe. So lets hope they reprint it in m14!

As far as the Garruks go I'll try Prime Hunter out, as I still have never had a chance to play Relentless, but what you are saying makes alot of sense.

The Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo is still intriguing as there has been twice that I was able to tutor up the other half, originally I just wanted to add more utility to Prime Titan, but that was before I knew about 2 Treetop Villages. There was a couple of times when colorless mana was an issue, so I think I'm going to try the tree top villages.

For the creature package I got Master of the hunt into play three times the one time he lived he locked things down pretty well, the other two times he died, and was out raced so he is most likely going out.
Agreed on Dryad Arbor it was cool to Green Sun into it turn one...but that was the only time I ever wanted it for, bad sync with innocent blood, and bad topdeck :(
Finks will become Thragtusk, I just thought it might be more relevent since there is a bunch of burn where I'm playing...which makes me rethink 4 thought seize...ARGH soo many decisions!

Oh yeah TheArchitect - You would be right concerning wasteland/ghost quarters, I'm only using ghost quarters cause all my wastelands are in another deck.

Any ways thank you again for the input. I'll post my new decklist when I'm done with it. I played GB Pox for a while, and loved the removal/discard that GB brings, so far this deck can be a beast!

[TheArchitect]

Siezes in Lilys spot seems like a good call.

Master of the wild hunt is awful, he just is too easily answered Ive found. One card I like quiet a bit in GB is Wolfir Silverheart. Doesnt die to bolt and impacts combat the turn you play him if you have a creature out already. Also, unlike master of the wild hunt or thrun he will be bigger than any goyfs or knights which is often important.

Honestly I'd run 2 treetops in that depths/stage slot. I just figured you probably wanted to play around with those cards more.

Primal hunter is busted against any control or midrange deck. And most decks have no way of dealing with him besides flyers or 1 of detention spheres/pulses. I think you will like him.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

Hey guys, I finally got my hands on the deck just in time for a TCGplayer 1k at B.C. Comix in Fenton, Michigan. I went 2-2-2, but since it was my first time playing the deck I can't complain too much. First, here's the list I played:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of Despair
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas

SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

A couple of notes, karkas was just bad. I didn't play sneak and show like I expected (even saw quite a few in the room), and I likely wouldn't have drawn it anyway. It might have been ok if I was playing Primaeval Titan so I could drop him into play off of show and tell and fetch karakas. I might test that later. I also had a few times where I screwed myself out of value on explorer where I didn't have the right or enough basics. I'll probably go up to 8 or 9 basics if I can but I'm unsure what to cut beyond the karakas. Anyway, I'll give a report.

Round one, I saw an opening of scalding tarn, volcanic, and ponder. I played a cabal therapy naming show and tell. Turns out he was playing RUG delver. I flashed it back and took two tarmogoyfs and got value out of explorer while he got nothing. I don't remember much else, but I think pernicious deed won me the game. Game two he had a flipped delver but I green sun zenithed for a sigarda and there was nothing he could do. He told me after the match that he was holding a gilded drake. Of course he couldn't take sigarda.
1-0
Round two: Mono blue nivmagus/delver.
I kept a one lander with top, and dug my way out of it. Probably a bad keep. He had a flipped delver and he countered pernicious deed. Then, cabal therapy got flusterstormed and I promptly died. Game two was a complete blowout. He stifled two of my fetch activations, and wastelanded a third land. I couldn't come back from that and he killed me with a delver and nivmagus.
1-1
Round three: Mono blue Omnishow
I saw two islands and a preordain and guessed he was playing high tide, so I named that. He showed me a loaded hand, and even with a flashbacked therapy taking show and tell he drew into another and killed me. Game two I put in my duresses, memoricide, and extirpate. I mulliganed, and kept a 6 with 2 duress, a cabal therapy, one land, a top, and eternal witness. I managed to take a dream halls and show and tell, and after I extirpated them both he scooped. Game three was a heart breaker. He show and telled an omniscience into play and cast the last two cards in his hand, which were 2 dream halls. I put in thragtusk off the show and tell. For some reason that I don't remember I didn't have the mana to maelstrom pulse the omniscience so I had to sac thragtusk to phyrexian tower. Of course, I completely forgot that dream halls allows you to cast things too. I could have gotten angel of despair with fierce empath, cast either that or sun titan, and then presented lethal in time for the round to end. Instead we went to turns and while I had lethal on board next turn he was turn 5 and we drew. I was real mad at myself after that round.
1-1-1
Round Four: Jund
He thoughtseized me turn one and took a pernicious deed. We both played our hands out on the table and he had a deathrite, bob, slyvan library, and a bloodbraid elf. I had a wall of blossoms and not much else. I cast eternal witness to get deed back to blow up his board, but since it was the only card in my hand it was discarded to the liliana he played next turn. Game two I wiped his board, but only after a considerable amount of damage was dealt with deathrite shaman. I'm pretty sure I boarded completely wrong here, if I had put in extirpate I probably could have gotten his punishing fires if he tapped out and the fires killed me eventually while I couldn't do much. We talked a bit about split second and how he could have got punishing fire back with grove anyway even if I had cast extirpate. Jund seemed like a matchup I really should have won, as its a fair deck and nic fit is supposed to beat those. It was probably largely due to my inexperience.
1-2-1
Round Five: Affinity.
Game one I blew up something like 8 artifacts with deed, including his lands. With no artifacts in play he even had to sac glimmervoid. His lone card was a tezzeret and I maelstrom pulsed it to add insult to injury. Game two he had the nuts, attacking with a orinthoper with cranial plating to present at most a three turn clock. Game three pernicious deed did its thing again. He played a pithing needle, named top, and then promptly realized his mistake that he should have named deed. I therapied him and his hand was pretty bad anyway after a mull to 5.
2-2-1
Round Six: Goblins
This round was frustrating. My opponent took a long time shuffling. Whenever I had to shuffle my deck from explorer or a fetch he would spend a good 20 seconds shuffling my deck before putting it back. He played at a glacial pace, agonizing over simple things like playing a turn one lackey. I told him he needed to hurry if we were going to play three games and he continued to slow play. At this point I should have called a judge. Game one I had a sun titan recurring deed every turn and he just kept looking at his hand, shaking his head, taking like 3 minutes a turn to decide whether to play a creature or not and refusing to scoop. Game two he played out a ton of goblins including two seige gang commanders (hardcasted) since he got value off explorer. He won that one. We had about 5 minutes for game three and drew, even though I was in a commanding position. This guy ended the day with three draws. It's pretty bad when you draw half your matches. I'm surprised he didn't draw all 6. And goblins is supposed to be a fast deck!
2-2-2

Anyway, that's it! I had a lot of fun and learned some lessons about the deck. Hopefully I get better with therapy as time goes on. For every time I whiffed, it kind of balanced out with a few times of getting cards blindly.

[Zinch]

New Hydra from core set:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143496&d=1372652478

Kalonian Hydra 3GG
Creature - Hydra

Trample
~ enters the battlefield with 4 +1/+1 counters in it.
When ~ attacks, double the number of +1/+1 counters on every creature you control.

0/0

It's a 2 turn clock!! Could it replace Primeval/Garruk as the finisher?

[Viridia]

Oh, that is a beauty. I will definately be using him :)

[Zombie]

Dat power creep.

[xieyun006]

So i've been testing some more and this is the list i ended up with:

3 veteran explorer
1 death rite shaman
2 sakura-tribe elder, considering 1/1 split with wall of blossoms
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
1 wickerbough elder
1 thragtusk
1 wolfir silverheart, which will most likely become kalonian hydra :)
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
3 duress until i can get thought seize
4 green sun's zenith

3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed

2 garruk, primal hunter
3 sensei's divining top

4 verdant catacomb
4 misty rainforest
2 tree top village
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 ghost quarter yes i know it should be wasteland, but i'm too cheap to buy a fifth, and too lazy to take one out of my pox deck.
3 bayou
3 swamp
4 forest

once again any feed back is appreciated!

[sherko7]

So i've been testing some more and this is the list i ended up with:

3 veteran explorer
1 death rite shaman
2 sakura-tribe elder, considering 1/1 split with wall of blossoms
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
1 wickerbough elder
1 thragtusk
1 wolfir silverheart, which will most likely become kalonian hydra :)
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
3 duress until i can get thought seize
4 green sun's zenith

3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed

2 garruk, primal hunter
3 sensei's divining top

4 verdant catacomb
4 misty rainforest
2 tree top village
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 ghost quarter yes i know it should be wasteland, but i'm too cheap to buy a fifth, and too lazy to take one out of my pox deck.
3 bayou
3 swamp
4 forest

once again any feed back is appreciated!

I would suggest cutting out the Sakura Tribe-Elders. Have tried those back when I was playing straight GB and didn't like them really much. Going off with Veteran Explorer is usually enough. Try getting a 4th Explorer in that slot and then possibly a Wall of Blossoms? I'd also suggest adding a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse. For the 3 Duress, maybe try 2 Hymns and 1 Diabolic Intent? :tongue: You can fit in the TS later, but Sac explorer via Tower into Hymn then drop Witness into Hymn number 2 on Turn 3 is the nuts against some decks :D I know it sounds funny and highly improbable but I did manage to do it a couple of times before and those won me games I had no place to win. :laugh: Anyway, if you don't like Hymn I would still suggest playing the Diabolic Intent.

[TheArchitect]

I would suggest cutting out the Sakura Tribe-Elders. Have tried those back when I was playing straight GB and didn't like them really much. Going off with Veteran Explorer is usually enough. Try getting a 4th Explorer in that slot and then possibly a Wall of Blossoms? I'd also suggest adding a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse. For the 3 Duress, maybe try 2 Hymns and 1 Diabolic Intent? :tongue: You can fit in the TS later, but Sac explorer via Tower into Hymn then drop Witness into Hymn number 2 on Turn 3 is the nuts against some decks :D I know it sounds funny and highly improbable but I did manage to do it a couple of times before and those won me games I had no place to win. :laugh: Anyway, if you don't like Hymn I would still suggest playing the Diabolic Intent.

Basically suggesting you undo the things I thought you should change. I disagree, but try both ways I guess and see how you like it.

[Tao]

I am not really sure how to call out stalling. Honestly yes I am a bit shy to call it out because she's one of the few people I know, but I was left rather pissed after the game especially when my friend and my bro told me about what they saw. How do I prove they're stalling? Do I just call a judge and tell them I think she's stalling or something?

This is complicated. Read what happened in Ecstatic_Conch's round 6. Some people are just overchallenged with certain situations. Especially when they fall behind and try to find ways to win that are just not there they take forever to make a move. That is of course not cheating and to these type of players you should be courteous because you obviously don't want to be a jerk. Nonetheless it is not rude to ask in a polite way to play the game at a reasonable pace. If they can't you just have to call a judge anyway. Whatever their motivation is, it is unacceptable to not win a round because of your opponent not playing his cards.

So the first thing I would do is to ask my opponent friendly to play faster. If he/she doesn't, call a judge. When he comes I would not use the word "stalling", that is up to the judge to decide (and he probably won't decide it is stalling anyway). Just describe what happened. Tell him that your opponent plays slower than appropriate. If you noticed that your opponent has reduced his/her game speed significantly tell him that, this is an important thing for the judge to know.

The judge will probably watch the game for a while and if your opponent was trying to cheat he/she will at least stop as long as a judge is there. But most likely the stalling stops entirely because very few cheaters keep on cheating once they have been called out on it. There always might be some people standing around that watch the game. If your opponent was simply playing slow this is never a pleasant situation but that is a lesson every player has to learn. No one is helped if he just keeps on playing slow forever once things get complicated and draws every second match because of it.

[xieyun006]

Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...

TheArchitect,

Wolfir silverheart was pretty impressive, but there were a few times trying to keep him, and another creature on the board was too much of a hassle, even though he is out of bolt range, most of my other creatures aren't, them responding to soul bond can be heart breaking, we'll see how the kalonian hydra works out, I might just take him out and go with a fourth explorer, or diabolic intent, because an extra creature win con is nice, but I'm not really sure If I need it.

Thanks for the input guys!

[kabards]

The one that sherko7 is talking is a female player that uses RDW with a slow pace of game. It's better if you call a judge or better ask her to speed up her play sher :laugh:

[Blastoderm]

Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...

TheArchitect,

Wolfir silverheart was pretty impressive, but there were a few times trying to keep him, and another creature on the board was too much of a hassle, even though he is out of bolt range, most of my other creatures aren't, them responding to soul bond can be heart breaking, we'll see how the kalonian hydra works out, I might just take him out and go with a fourth explorer, or diabolic intent, because an extra creature win con is nice, but I'm not really sure If I need it.

Thanks for the input guys!

The new hydra is a good replacement for wolfir

[kabards]

The new hydra is a good replacement for wolfir

also good replacement for Broodmate Dragon :tongue:

[sherko7]

Basically suggesting you undo the things I thought you should change. I disagree, but try both ways I guess and see how you like it.

Sorry, I missed that. But I loved Hymn back then really, and I never owned TS so never got to try but that change does sound good.


This is complicated. Read what happened in Ecstatic_Conch's round 6. Some people are just overchallenged with certain situations. Especially when they fall behind and try to find ways to win that are just not there they take forever to make a move. That is of course not cheating and to these type of players you should be courteous because you obviously don't want to be a jerk. Nonetheless it is not rude to ask in a polite way to play the game at a reasonable pace. If they can't you just have to call a judge anyway. Whatever their motivation is, it is unacceptable to not win a round because of your opponent not playing his cards.

So the first thing I would do is to ask my opponent friendly to play faster. If he/she doesn't, call a judge. When he comes I would not use the word "stalling", that is up to the judge to decide (and he probably won't decide it is stalling anyway). Just describe what happened. Tell him that your opponent plays slower than appropriate. If you noticed that your opponent has reduced his/her game speed significantly tell him that, this is an important thing for the judge to know.

The judge will probably watch the game for a while and if your opponent was trying to cheat he/she will at least stop as long as a judge is there. But most likely the stalling stops entirely because very few cheaters keep on cheating once they have been called out on it. There always might be some people standing around that watch the game. If your opponent was simply playing slow this is never a pleasant situation but that is a lesson every player has to learn. No one is helped if he just keeps on playing slow forever once things get complicated and draws every second match because of it.

I used to play slow but I never stalled. And I do get that sometimes people like to try and find outs by playing it out, its a learning process. But holding a mountain and mumbling whether or not the damage is lethal isn't slow playing. :laugh: Anyway, I guess that's a lesson learned. In all fairness, I did take a restroom break for 3 minutes before game 3 as I really needed to take a leak lol. That contributed as well.


Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...



Well understood. I guess whichever works better. I love the explosiveness of Hymn but I guess you're right that 1 mana discards are probably more consistent and definitely lighter. Plus, pinpoint discard allows you to see the opponent's hand, map out his plays and pick which card would disrupt his play the most. Definitely worth the trade off.


The one that sherko7 is talking is a female player that uses RDW with a slow pace of game. It's better if you call a judge or better ask her to speed up her play sher :laugh:

Yeah, RDW right? Those decks get draws all the time. :laugh:

[Arianrhod]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143546&d=1372775661

Now that's what I'm talking about. Definitely playable. I'm not sure that it's playable right NOW, with the current meta, but I'm definitely gonna be getting some of those to have access to for the future.

[Star|Scream]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143546&d=1372775661

Now that's what I'm talking about. Definitely playable. I'm not sure that it's playable right NOW, with the current meta, but I'm definitely gonna be getting some of those to have access to for the future.

I'm trying to find a situation where you'd want this card over Thrun, but I can't find one. How often do blue decks play blue spells during our turn? To counter something or cast a brainstorm? Assume they steadily cast one blue spell a turn for 3 turns, it's still smaller than a medium goyf.

Starting out it can't block most goyfs or geese and it can't attack into a flipped delver. It's too slow against combo to pose a clock. It can be terminus'd just as easily as Thrun can. It doesn't provide any real or virtual card advantage.

Now had it said "Whenever an opponent that controls an island or a swamp casts a spell..." It would be a lot more powerful because it would hit bolts, stps, and other instants that "blue" decks usually use on our turn.

edit:

Snapcaster into Brainstorm, maybe, but still I'm not seeing it.

[Arianrhod]

I'm trying to find a situation where you'd want this card over Thrun, but I can't find one. How often do blue decks play blue spells during our turn? To counter something or cast a brainstorm? Assume they steadily cast one blue spell a turn for 3 turns, it's still smaller than a medium goyf.

Starting out it can't block most goyfs or geese and it can't attack into a flipped delver. It's too slow against combo to pose a clock. It can be terminus'd just as easily as Thrun can. It doesn't provide any real or virtual card advantage.

Now had it said "Whenever an opponent that controls an island or a swamp casts a spell..." It would be a lot more powerful because it would hit bolts, stps, and other instants that "blue" decks usually use on our turn.

edit:

Snapcaster into Brainstorm, maybe, but still I'm not seeing it.

I'm thinking specifically as a way to punish the blue tempo decks. As a 3-drop, you can naturally play it on t2 after an Explorer/Therapy opening, and once it's in play, it applies pressure to your opponent because they now have to worry about whether or not they want to actually counter [spell x]. If they opt to counter any single [spell x], it is immediately larger than all Geese. Having hexproof means they can't submerge it. Once it's out, it's there, and there's nothing they're going to do about it. Also, for these specific metas (the tempo heavy ones), we're not Deeding at 3 or higher: we're Deeding at 1 or 2, which means that this thing can then swing in for a fair sized punch. I'm not saying it's a snap-include, but it is at least playable / interesting, which is substantially more than anything else in the rest of this set. When/if the inevitable BUG/RUG Delver meta rises once again, it'll be good to remember that this guy exists.

[Star|Scream]

You don't like the new hydra?

[Arianrhod]

Its okay, but not amazing. Having no protection whatsoever is a mark against it imo...its not better than tusk, sigarda, and upon reflection, I think that both wolfir and chameleon are better than it as well.

[HoneyT]

You guys try and dig way too deep.

I agree with Arianrhod about the hydra. Every other 5 drop we play is better than that guy. He's super mopey.

I disagree with him about the wolf though. He's not particularly exciting. As pointed out, Thrun is pretty much always better against the control decks; and we certainly don't need to waste a slot to help with the tempo decks.

[Star|Scream]

You guys try and dig way too deep.



What do you mean? Trying to find new cards for the archetype or over-thinking the cards' applications?

[Ecstatic_Conch]

On the topic of relatively new cards, I was curious about a few in the jund version in particular. Are Rakdos's Return, Sire of Insanity, or Ruric Thar worth playing? Sire just seems insane versus combo and control if you can ramp into it fast and so does ruric thar. I think thar might just harm us too much to be worth playing though. And I'm sure you could cast a pretty big Rakdos's Return after ramping with explorer. It also has the added bonus of killing planeswalkers. Are these cards just out of the question? Have they been tried?

[slikwilly]

it is at least playable / interesting, which is substantially more than anything else in the rest of this set

When DotP isn't crashing I'm pretty in love w/ Primeval Bounty. Too bad it triggers on casting. It'd be awesome if you could GSZ out Sigarda _and_ stick the three counters on her. Not sure it'll make the cut, but for anyone still on Rector it probably warrants testing in the Recycle slot (and if you can squeeze both Recycle and Bounty in then you really have the nuts although that's probably EDH fantasy land right there). Combine w/ Haakon, Gravecrawler, Havengul Lich and Flashback spells for maximum hilarity.

[plogan]

In terms of primeval bounty in recto I'm considering replacing faith's fetters with it at least for a bit of testing though it probably should just be oblivion ring. Also I don't think it should be viewed as a replacement for the recycle slot. Recycle actually digs you out of trouble situations or allows you to overwhelm your opponent with card advantage, whereas bounty simply adds effects to cards you are already playing which I guess makes topdecks a little better however it seems like its a bit of a win more card though top shinaningans seem interesting.

On a side note, if anyone is still on rector what do you consider of swapping out Volrath's Stronghold (or less likely Starved Rusalka) for a third Phyrexian Tower post rules change?

[Viridia]

Why would you want another Tower? It's still terrible in multiples.

[jobdevries]

Hey all,

It has been a while since I posted, but I thought it might be cool to share a new version I put together.
I am really starting to love the amount of disruption and control this list has. To me it feels like it has a better MU
vs. control (lingering souls/hymn) and vs. reanimator/show-tell (humility). It includes an Academy package,
basically getting collective blessing out, and beating with tokens (lingering souls, elspeth, deranged hermit).
I would like to have your feedback, especially considering the side-board.

Much appreciated!

Creatures (11):
3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells (28):
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Collective Blessing
1 Humility

Lands (21):
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
3 Plains
2 Forest

//Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Energy Flux
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Peacekeeper
1 Thrun, the last Troll
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

[Tao]

For the MD have you though about Sorin over Elspeth? I know it sounds odd but it could help out your mana. BB for Hymn and 2WW for Elspeth can be tough in a Forest based deck. You would still then only have Sigarda and Humility as double White spells, but they are for later in the game and for tutoring. That way you can reasonably plan around only searching for only one Plains during the entire game.
Also if Deranged Hermit is an important part of your deck you should put it in there.

For the SB help can you explain what the white Leylines do there? They would be the first thing I cut but maybe they have a reason in your meta. The one Peacekeeper seems odd too because you have no way of searching for it. Energy Flux seems a bit strange, too.

[jobdevries]

For the MD have you though about Sorin over Elspeth? I know it sounds odd but it could help out your mana. BB for Hymn and 2WW for Elspeth can be tough in a Forest based deck. You would still then only have Sigarda and Humility as double White spells, but they are for later in the game and for tutoring. That way you can reasonably plan around only searching for only one Plains during the entire game.
Also if Deranged Hermit is an important part of your deck you should put it in there.

For the SB help can you explain what the white Leylines do there? They would be the first thing I cut but maybe they have a reason in your meta. The one Peacekeeper seems odd too because you have no way of searching for it. Energy Flux seems a bit strange, too.

1) Sorin vs Elspeth: actually, that is a very good suggestion. Until now I have not had any problems with the manabase, since phyrexian tower helps out getting the BB for hymn, and Veteran explorer can just get WW (turn 2 Elspeth is nothing to sneeze at). Besides that, I think Sorin's ultimate might be more relevant in legacy. I do love the interaction lingering souls + sorin's emblem +1/+0... I will definitely consider it.
2) Deranged Hermit: whoops, -1 GSZ, +1 Hermit, sloppy mistake.
3) SB: the sideboard is strongly resembling my old SB, and might not be as good in this version. Leyline of Sanctity are mostly vs. storm (tendrils). I used to play diabolic intent, which made Peacekeeper tutorable, so not as good in this version either. Energy Flux is used vs. affinity, but might be overkill as I'm running 3 deeds anyway. I don't think the pithing needles and leyline of the void need explanation.

[Krimson Viper]

I'm not going to lie, this deck looks fun. Since I have most of the mana base, I think I will go bgw with my build. I could easily switch to GBR since I play The Walking Dead and have the mana base already. Shoot, most of that deck transfers to this one.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Innocent Blood
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Angel of Despair


Honestly, I shoved in a bunch of things I just want to play with. I know there are some great interactions going on here with Sun Titan, Pernicious Deed, and Wasteland. Primal Hunter is a beast and tough for people to deal with because of the 3/3 beasts and the CA he provides. Nothing like pumping out tokens that can't be dealt with by Punishing Fire. I think I have enough hand hate for combo decks. The only deck I fear is Death and Taxes because of the Phyrexian Revoker in the MD.

A couple of questions I have are what cards or decks, create problems for this deck in general?

[cadaver]

Quick combos like ant and belcher are the only decks I've found to give nic fit problems. I play scapewish version and run wicket elder for revokers and troublesome artifacts plus u have pdeeds and therapys so being smart with those makes dnt a pretty easy match up

[Tao]

1) Sorin vs Elspeth: actually, that is a very good suggestion. Until now I have not had any problems with the manabase, since phyrexian tower helps out getting the BB for hymn, and Veteran explorer can just get WW (turn 2 Elspeth is nothing to sneeze at). Besides that, I think Sorin's ultimate might be more relevant in legacy. I do love the interaction lingering souls + sorin's emblem +1/+0... I will definitely consider it.
2) Deranged Hermit: whoops, -1 GSZ, +1 Hermit, sloppy mistake.
3) SB: the sideboard is strongly resembling my old SB, and might not be as good in this version. Leyline of Sanctity are mostly vs. storm (tendrils). I used to play diabolic intent, which made Peacekeeper tutorable, so not as good in this version either. Energy Flux is used vs. affinity, but might be overkill as I'm running 3 deeds anyway. I don't think the pithing needles and leyline of the void need explanation.

- White Leyline are not a good choice I think. Most Combo decks these days use Show and Tell. Peacekeeper doesn't do anything against modern Show and Tell decks anymore (Omnitell) and Energy Field is too situational imo. I think with 4 Thoughtseizes, 2 Carpet of Flowers in these slots you would be happier.
- I think everyone in this thread has at least once gone below 4 Explorer / 4 GSZ before because we wanted more deck space and we all went back to 4/4.
- You do not need Maelstrom Pulse. Just play 4 Abrupt Decay. Pulse is best against Tombstalker and Jace TMS but Lingering Souls is already good against Jace and can stall long enough against Tombstalker. Likewise Sigarda is great against Jace and trades with Tombstalker.

[Tao]

A couple of questions I have are what cards or decks, create problems for this deck in general?

- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.
- Jace TMS is a problematic card, too. He is beatable but his existence turns the UW Control matchups from a bye into a hard fight.
- If you play White as your third color you should play Sigarda. It is the best GSZ target for Nic Fit and red and blue versions envy you for her. Awesome against Jace, awesome against BUG, almost unbeatable for Jund.

[xieyun006]

[QUOTE=Tao;735592]- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.

So what can you use to sideboard for these decks? All I can think of is innocent blood, duress(some kind of hand destruction), and maybe shriek maw, but I don't like maw too much since he can't hit gris.

My sideboard for GB Nic Fit

3 innocent blood
2 duress
3 mindbreak traps
2 nihil spell bomb
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 kroshan grip
1 beast within

Any suggestions?

[JanoschEausH]

Have you guys thought about Strionic Resonator from M14? If there is a Legacy deck with epic ETB-Triggers and enought mana it would be Nic Fit, right? You could copy the abilities from Explorer, Eternal Wittness, Armada Wurm, Academy Rector any Titan. You could even be using the mana from Phyrexian Tower to activate the Resonator.

[hymntotourcock]

[QUOTE=Tao;735592]- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.

So what can you use to sideboard for these decks? All I can think of is innocent blood, duress(some kind of hand destruction), and maybe shriek maw, but I don't like maw too much since he can't hit gris.

My sideboard for GB Nic Fit

3 innocent blood
2 duress
3 mindbreak traps
2 nihil spell bomb
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 kroshan grip
1 beast within

Any suggestions?

If only we had an edict effect with split second!

I'm guessing Angel of Despair would be a good fit. You can find her with Diabolic Intent and we can actually hardcast her (or of course cheat her in with S&T)

[Krimson Viper]

Quick combos like ant and belcher are the only decks I've found to give nic fit problems. I play scapewish version and run wicket elder for revokers and troublesome artifacts plus u have pdeeds and therapys so being smart with those makes dnt a pretty easy match up
So I guess I shouldn't be that afraid of them then? They are the only reason why I chose to run Elesh MD, and got rid of G.Titan, who I really wanted in it.


- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.
- Jace TMS is a problematic card, too. He is beatable but his existence turns the UW Control matchups from a bye into a hard fight.
- If you play White as your third color you should play Sigarda. It is the best GSZ target for Nic Fit and red and blue versions envy you for her. Awesome against Jace, awesome against BUG, almost unbeatable for Jund.
I am not sure what slot I should put her in, but I have heard she is great in this deck. How come nobody runs a fatty to answer Show and Tell? I would figure Angel of Despair is an excellent choice for them since she will blow up whatever they put into play.

[Tao]

There is not really much we can do about it. Angel of Despair is too specialized. It is good against Show and Tell, but dead against any other Combo. Not only things like ANT and Elves, but also Sneak Attack, Reanimator and 12-post. So it is not worth to fill your SB with barely castable 7-drops that don't do anything 3/4 of the time. You could GSZ/Fierce Empath them to save a few slots, but if your opponent knows about it, it won't do anything except for delaying him.

Like I said, there is not much you can do about it in nonblue nonred versions of Nic Fit. Additional Thoughtseizes are probably your best shot but it won't make the matchup good.

Blue versions have the best chance by dedicating 12-15 SB slots to it but they also use cards to fight Combo in general and not only the "cheating fattie into play" decks (4 Force of Will, 3-4 Negate, 2-4 Thoughtseize, 2-3 Surgical Extraction).
Red versions have nice effective cards in Slaughter Games and Red Blasts, too.
For White versions, they have Gaddock Teeg, but he doesn't really stop much.

In general I don't see much reason to play White without Rector over Red and Blue and Rector is currently not good. Though the Lingering Souls lists are interesting. White gives you Sigarda, but that is about it.
For a new player to the deck I would advice that you try out HoneyT's Punishing Fire list, Arianrhod's Scapewish list and/or Qweerios' BUG Fit list before you start brewing on your own. They are imo currently the strongest versions of the deck. My personal preferences are BUG and Punishing Fire.

[Ayotte]

The old answers to show and tell (angel of despair, innocent blood) just don't cut it anymore. Griselbrand ruined that. I don't even waste the slots trying to answer SnT any more.

[Bobmans]

The old answers to show and tell (angel of despair, innocent blood) just don't cut it anymore. Griselbrand ruined that. I don't even waste the slots trying to answer SnT any more.

I Agree. I think overall anti combo hate should be able to do the trick. Hence, Thoughtseize, REB, +-CoF, Slaughter Games, Surgical/Extirpate.

[Krimson Viper]

There is not really much we can do about it. Angel of Despair is too specialized. It is good against Show and Tell, but dead against any other Combo. Not only things like ANT and Elves, but also Sneak Attack, Reanimator and 12-post. So it is not worth to fill your SB with barely castable 7-drops that don't do anything 3/4 of the time. You could GSZ/Fierce Empath them to save a few slots, but if your opponent knows about it, it won't do anything except for delaying him.

Like I said, there is not much you can do about it in nonblue nonred versions of Nic Fit. Additional Thoughtseizes are probably your best shot but it won't make the matchup good.

Blue versions have the best chance by dedicating 12-15 SB slots to it but they also use cards to fight Combo in general and not only the "cheating fattie into play" decks (4 Force of Will, 3-4 Negate, 2-4 Thoughtseize, 2-3 Surgical Extraction).
Red versions have nice effective cards in Slaughter Games and Red Blasts, too.
For White versions, they have Gaddock Teeg, but he doesn't really stop much.

In general I don't see much reason to play White without Rector over Red and Blue and Rector is currently not good. Though the Lingering Souls lists are interesting. White gives you Sigarda, but that is about it.
For a new player to the deck I would advice that you try out HoneyT's Punishing Fire list, Arianrhod's Scapewish list and/or Qweerios' BUG Fit list before you start brewing on your own. They are imo currently the strongest versions of the deck. My personal preferences are BUG and Punishing Fire.

I am guessing PK Fire is used to shorten clocks, because as I understand, the MUs against creatures is amazing?

[Tao]

I am guessing PK Fire is used to shorten clocks, because as I understand, the MUs against creatures is amazing?

It can be a win condition but it is mostly a control card. Like in normal Jund decks it is used as a value engine that consists of cards that are good on their own. Grove on its own is basically Taiga and Fire on its own still kills Delver, DR Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Elves and much more. The matchup against creatures is good but decks like BUG have a lot of card advantage so you need something to keep up. Even decks like Jund and Maverick have good ways to create card advantage. Therefore Blue Nic Fit has its own CA, Scapewish can kill them and Jund lists have Fire/Grove and additional value creatures like Huntmaster of the Fells.

Another big advantage is that it keeps Planeswalkers under control. Like I mentioned Jace gives the deck a good amount of problems but Fire/Grove can gun it down. Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan for 2 Groves is a great late game plan.

[HoneyT]

It can be a win condition but it is mostly a control card. Like in normal Jund decks it is used as a value engine that consists of cards that are good on their own. Grove on its own is basically Taiga and Fire on its own still kills Delver, DR Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Elves and much more. The matchup against creatures is good but decks like BUG have a lot of card advantage so you need something to keep up. Even decks like Jund and Maverick have good ways to create card advantage. Therefore Blue Nic Fit has its own CA, Scapewish can kill them and Jund lists have Fire/Grove and additional value creatures like Huntmaster of the Fells.

Another big advantage is that it keeps Planeswalkers under control. Like I mentioned Jace gives the deck a good amount of problems but Fire/Grove can gun it down. Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan for 2 Groves is a great late game plan.

Tao pretty much nailed it. Elves is not actually a good matchup for Nic Fit in general, despite Deeds. P-Fires go a long way towards making that matchup better. Also, they make the Stoneblade matchup go from very close to almost unlosable.

Also, for those interested, my Punishing Fires list in my signature is finally updated.

[CRich3]

I'm going to SCG NJ for Legacy. I know nothing of the meta around there but I was debating bringing Rector since its the deck I know best. Anyone from the area?

[MrIggins]

I'm going to SCG NJ for Legacy. I know nothing of the meta around there but I was debating bringing Rector since its the deck I know best. Anyone from the area?

I'll be going, playing Scapewish. It will be a VERY difficult Open because people who didn't make top 8 of the Invitational but who qualified will probably be playing. Also my first SCG event, I'm looking forward to it. Rector seems like a tough choice with Deathrite Shaman everywhere but if you feel comfortable with the deck then more power to you. Hope to see you there!

[Tao]

I do not think Rector is a good choice at this point. The deck doesn't perform well in the current meta.

@HoneyT:
- you should put Gitaxian Probe in your BUG list
- trying out Gitaxian Probe in Punishing Fire is probably a good idea

[guelahpapyrus]

I do not think Rector is a good choice at this point. The deck doesn't perform well in the current meta.

@HoneyT:
- you should put Gitaxian Probe in your BUG list
- trying out Gitaxian Probe in Punishing Fire is probably a good idea

I tried out Probe in a Punishing Fire list that's close to HoneyT's and I didn't like it. It was tough to find space for it. I only ran it as a two-of and then anytime I would draw it past the opening hand, it wasn't great. Maybe a more skilled deck builder than I could fit in better.

[hymntotourcock]

I could see 4 Probe 4 SDT doing some effective work. With a set of probe you're more likely to see them in turns 1 - 2, and with more Top you can filter away dead probes late game.

[Siiig]

Why would you want another Tower? It's still terrible in multiples.

No one said anything to this, and I figure it might be to me since I'm the only one I know playing 2 towers.

It's a "shows up" thing. If you have two towers, you see them twice as often. The turn 1 vet turn 2 tower pop play is extremely good for us. Enough so that I believe it warrants having both in the deck. This is also a slot I will inevitably throw other options into just to test with.

[HoneyT]

I do not think Rector is a good choice at this point. The deck doesn't perform well in the current meta.

@HoneyT:
- you should put Gitaxian Probe in your BUG list
- trying out Gitaxian Probe in Punishing Fire is probably a good idea

For what it's worth, my BUG list is rather out-dated. Haven't played that in quite some time. Either way, Probes are not making it into my P-Fire list. I don't need their help to make Therapies good. And I would rather just have good cards that do something as opposed to derpy cantrips. Between GSZ and Top, we have an easy enough time finding cards we need without using a card that's really only useful in our opening hand/in conjuction with Therapy. I rarely miss with Therapy and when I do, it's almost never relevant.

@guelahpapyrus:
If you wanted to try and fit 4 Probes in my list, the cuts would be 1 Grove, 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, and either the Ooze, 1 Witness, or DRS. The last slot would be based on personal preference, though as I said, I will not be using Probes.

On the other hand, I agree with Tao that Rector is not really where you want to be. However, this meta is starting to look rather ripe for a more Junk/Rock style build for you white players out there.

[CRich3]

I figured, I will probably still play it since its what I know best. Probably tune it to rely less on rector though.

[Arianrhod]

Unfortunately I won't be at Somerset -- was planning on it, but some other stuff came up that's more important. One of these days we'll be at the same damn event, lol.

On a related subject, who all here is planning on going to Legacy Champs / GP DC? I'm definitely planning on attending both -- it'd be nice to have a Nic Fit caucus =)

------------

RE@Rector

Rector -might- still work, but it's subpar because of Mr. Douchebaggy Retarded Sycophant. You basically need to try to somehow find more room maindeck for spot removal. The upside is that if you can successfully resolve the DRS issue, you're pretty much set beyond that, since most decks are leaning purely on DRS for graveyard hate.

As for the metagame there, I'd come prepared for OmniTell (aka Carpet, Nether Voids, Cranial/Memoricide, etc). Aside from that, expect the usual assortment of SCG-grinder fair decks, and then the usual mix of random shit. If you post up your list, I can try to help as best I can.

[kingtk3]

What is the first card you name with cranial extraction/memoricide against OmniTell?

At first I'd say Cunning Wish because then their only win condition left would be Emrakul which is played at most as a one-of; however is not uncommon that in game 2 they'll side in some win condition, against Bx deck, in fear of discard plus surgical extraction on cunning wish.

Wouldn't be better to name Enter the infinite then?

[Star|Scream]

Arianrhod, pretty sure I'll be at GP DC, but I think I'll be playing combo and not Nic Fit.

[Arianrhod]

What is the first card you name with cranial extraction/memoricide against OmniTell?

At first I'd say Cunning Wish because then their only win condition left would be Emrakul which is played at most as a one-of; however is not uncommon that in game 2 they'll side in some win condition, against Bx deck, in fear of discard plus surgical extraction on cunning wish.

Wouldn't be better to name Enter the infinite then?

No, Omniscience is the name. The ONLY way that they can win the game at that point is by Showing Emrakul. They can't "cast" Emrakul via Dream Halls, because he's colorless. They also can't "cast" Ants a million times. If they are the Lab Maniac version, it is still slightly possible that they can win by chaining together enough crap with Halls, but it's harder....and the Lab Maniac version is less common, anyway.

Also of note when playing vs OmniTell: let the Show and Tell resolve if you have a REB: then REB their Omniscience or Dream Halls in response to Enter the Infinite. Skilled pilots might blow you out sometimes by casting a 2nd Omniscience first (or Hallsing an Omniscience), but that requires them to both be less idiotic than the average OmniTell pilot and to have a specific hand where they have multiples of those effects in-hand.


Arianrhod, pretty sure I'll be at GP DC, but I think I'll be playing combo and not Nic Fit.

Sad times =(

[hymntotourcock]

What is the first card you name with cranial extraction/memoricide against OmniTell?

At first I'd say Cunning Wish because then their only win condition left would be Emrakul which is played at most as a one-of; however is not uncommon that in game 2 they'll side in some win condition, against Bx deck, in fear of discard plus surgical extraction on cunning wish.

Wouldn't be better to name Enter the infinite then?

I would guess naming Show and Tell is a good idea. Maybe Griselbrand next. I'd honestly rather see Emrakul hit the board than Grisel. That at least gives a turn to drum something up rather than PAYSEVENLIFEFORCE LOL

Edit: I guess I was thinking more of Sneak and Show. Forgot entirely about Dream halls. . .

That guy ^ knows better than this guy <

[Arianrhod]

I would guess naming Show and Tell is a good idea. Maybe Griselbrand next. I'd honestly rather see Emrakul hit the board than Grisel. That at least gives a turn to drum something up rather than PAYSEVENLIFEFORCE LOL

Edit: I guess I was thinking more of Sneak and Show. Forgot entirely about Dream halls. . .

That guy ^ knows better than this guy <

=)

Also, you're wrong vs Sneak, too, lol. The proper order is you Therapy naming Show and Tell; then your first Cranial effect hits Emrakul. Your goal is to push your opponent onto the Sneak Attack + Griselbrand plan, because that plan is frequently nonlethal and gives you a TON of time to react. It also makes your Thragtusks other such creatures actually relevant, because 4x Griselbrand is only 28 damage, and without Emrakul, they can't recycle them. Sneak Attack is the combo piece we care less about, because it isn't persistent. Emrakul is the one we care most about, because we still have a board state after Griselbrand swings. They can still Show and Tell a Griselbrand, which is a problem, but if we're doing our job correctly, it'll take time for them to assemble that...and every turn is another turn we could draw another Cranial / a Witness / a Wish / whatever and completely ruin their day.

Note that Show and Tell is also REB-able.

[CRich3]

Here is my current version.

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Abrupt Decay

3x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower


//SB
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate -> Duress
2x ? (Cant remember)

-I put moat in the SB because most of my meta is stone blade/death blade, show and tell and storm. So it does nothing for me a majority of the time.
-I took out baneslayer because countertop was huge in my area for a while.
-Switched out for Grave Titan because its easier to attack through Emrakul.
-I am keeping Faith Fetters, even though it is not as good with the new legend rule, it can't be decayed and they still have to draw another one.
-Thinking of cutting a rector for a Scavenging Ooze or maybe even a Voice of Resurgence. He sounds pretty good with the sac effects.

[Arianrhod]

Okay. I don't have time for an in-depth examination at the moment, but I'll quickly note something that I've been considering for a while now....if you've moved away from Moat maindeck (which I think is correct), a very relevant thing to consider is that Blood Baron of Vizkopa is probably an upgrade from Baneslayer. While it loses 1 power, Flying, First Strike, and Protection from Griselbrand, Blood Baron gains protection from black and white, which seems amazingly relevant. They can't just Swords it and move on. They can't swing with Batterskull into it (nor can they block it). Can't be Pulsed. Etc. The 3WB cost is a bit friendlier than 3WW, too. I'm not sure that it's an actual upgrade -- BBV loses to Goyf, afterall, whereas Baneslayer could usually race it by herself.

Just some quick nibbles for thought.

[kingtk3]

No, Omniscience is the name. The ONLY way that they can win the game at that point is by Showing Emrakul. They can't "cast" Emrakul via Dream Halls, because he's colorless. They also can't "cast" Ants a million times. If they are the Lab Maniac version, it is still slightly possible that they can win by chaining together enough crap with Halls, but it's harder....and the Lab Maniac version is less common, anyway.
...

Sorry, I had to specify I was referring to the LabMan version, which can combo off through Dream Halls with only 2 blue cards in hand (one of which has to be CW) or 1 CW and 3 mana: it's not that fringe of a case because Firemind's Foresight is played for this reason.

[Arianrhod]

Sorry, I had to specify I was referring to the LabMan version, which can combo off through Dream Halls with only 2 blue cards in hand (one of which has to be CW) or 1 CW and 3 mana: it's not that fringe of a case because Firemind's Foresight is played for this reason.

Yeah, the LabMan version is significantly worse for us, I think. You can name Cunning Wish, but then you're still going to get Emrakul'd. The only way to beat that version is to land 2 Slaughter Games/Cranials/etc...one on Wish and the other on Emrakul. I think that it's a reasonable risk, though, that if G1 all you know is that they're on OmniTell, you aim for Omniscience. Like....if you know specifically that you're getting LabManned, then adjust accordingly...but otherwise, I think that assuming Ants is better, because that version dies much more effectively to hitting Omniscience itself.

[Star|Scream]

Sad times =(

Don't worry. We'll still meet up, and I still get to use my Burning Wishes

[Arianrhod]

Don't worry. We'll still meet up, and I still get to use my Burning Wishes

Haha, fair enough. You figured out how to make Doomsday tick, I take it?

[Star|Scream]

Haha, fair enough. You figured out how to make Doomsday tick, I take it?

Not as well as I'd like for a large tournament like that. I'll probably go with TES or maybe ANT.

[guelahpapyrus]

@guelahpapyrus:
If you wanted to try and fit 4 Probes in my list, the cuts would be 1 Grove, 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, and either the Ooze, 1 Witness, or DRS. The last slot would be based on personal preference, though as I said, I will not be using Probes.


I'm with you; I don't think Probes are worth it for this build. The only difference between my deck and yours is -1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 SDT. Probe makes the deck smaller and that's the opposite of what I want most of the time - I wish there was more space! I would rather run Thoughtseize MD than Gitaxian Probe in this build. If I was in blue, that would be a different story.

[plogan]

@Crich3

I would suggest cutting the tribe elders and maybe thrun for a garruk relentless and a pulse and a vindicate. On a side note, I also really really like dryad arbor in the list (in place of the third plains) as tutorable dude for therapy against combo and the like. My current meta is filled with RUG Delver BUG Esperblade and a couple other fair archetypes. Garruk in particular is awesome because he is usually a removal spell with huge synergies if he lives. I've actually beat an elves player by hiding behind a moat and ulting garruk on turn 5 of turns and blowing up my moat for the win. Finally, I agree with you on fetters, even post rules change it essentially does the same thing as oblivion ring but is far more difficult to destroy and the life swing is not always irrelevant. Hope my thoughts help!

Also I should be at GP DC.

[HoneyT]

A few things:

I'm gonna try my damndest to make it to DC! It'd be sick to have a Nic Fit party. :cool:

As far as the Omni matchup goes, I have some insight for you. I've been on the dark side for awhile now, playing Omnishow. It's no fun but I've won quite a chunk of change with the deck.

Letting the Show and Tell resolve with a REB in hand is terribly greedy against a good player. I always cast a second enabler if I have one to play around such things. You're most likely going to lose game 1. Accept that. Find out their kill condition. The Lab Man lists typically don't even run an Emrakul, the Ants verions do.

The Release the Ants verions are completely reliant on Omniscience to win, so if you can extract them, it's game over. Lab Man verions can win with just Dream Halls, so that's tougher. In general, Enter the Infinite is the better name there. You can't go for the Wishes because you lose if they boarded in the Lab Man to play around extractions.

Bear in mind, you'll have to play through Leyline if you expect to win. They can mull to oblivion and if they stick one, our clock isn't near fast enough to stop them from digging out of it. This is why my current sideboard is 15 cards for that matchup. You just have to be smart and know the intracacies of both versions of the deck.

[HoneyT]

Double post, but I thought I would share this for the lolz:

http://llarack.blogspot.com/2013/07/focus-on-legacy-nic-fit-aka-ramp-decks.html

[CRich3]

@plogan
I can't cut the elders. I can't even count how many times I get stuck on 4 mana with this deck. They help me ramp up quicker vs tempo decks because they love to stifle my explorers. I use to run Dryad Arbor for that reason. But whenever I draw him it feels like a wasted space. If I can keep him in the deck then he works fine.

@arianrhod
I love the idea of BBV, now the question is which creature should I replace? I can take of Baneslayer but as you said he can easily race goyf. Other option is Thrun but he can also stop goyf with regen and can't be killed by a majority of the meta. Or should I change out the 3rd rector since I cut out moat?

Oh and the 2 cards in my SB are vindicate and pulse. I changed my md and SB by:
-1 Vindicate
-1 Pulse
-1 Moat
For
+3 Abrupt Decay

Against Deathblade a turn 2 Bob protected by counters is almost and auto loss. Also there haven't been any major lands I needed to destroy with vindicate in a while except death and taxes but they have 4 Karakas so it isn't as helpful. Pulse is mostly for lingering soulds, but with BBV to swing through to jace and Decay to get rid of equipment (mainly sword of feast and famine). Plus deed, I don't need it main anymore.

Any suggestions on where I can fit Blind Obedience?

[Tao]

I have a pretty interesting Rector list in the brewing. More on that soon or next week.

[Arianrhod]

Double post, but I thought I would share this for the lolz:

http://llarack.blogspot.com/2013/07/focus-on-legacy-nic-fit-aka-ramp-decks.html

Yeah I saw this when Koby retweeted it, and immediately facepalmed at the discussion. Just another example in the long litany thereof showcasing the degrees to which Nic Fit is generally looked down upon. Meh. Not our fault that 80% of people who pick up the deck can't actually play it.


I have a pretty interesting Rector list in the brewing. More on that soon or next week.

Hopefully by next week, my new brew will be ready to go as well. Trying to hammer out the creature list has been miserable. Definitely looking forward to seeing yours!

-----

@CRich:

Okay, so this is where you were at:

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Abrupt Decay

3x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate -> Duress
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Let's take it in pieces.

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

As noted above, I'll point out that the creature base has been my biggest struggle while trying to hammer out my new GBW list. With Moat no longer maindeck (which I agree with), Thrun gets marginally better. I think he's still subpar, though. He's strong against blue decks....but so are combative planeswalkers. He chumps Goyf forever, but, again, so do combative planeswalkers. He's fine if you're enhancing him somehow -- like the PFire lists that run Kessig, okay, sure. You got me. But if you're just running him as a 4/4 beatstick, he's very underwhelming. Grave Titan is probably good enough now, with Moat out of the main deck. I do question whether Grave Titan is better than something like Angel of Despair, which can give you a maindeck out to Show and Tell while still doing some pretty gross things late-game, especially on conjunction with Nightmare. Titan is the faster clock, but I'm not sure whether or not you really need the additional clock with the 5-spot lineup that you're sporting. Just some food for thought.

I think that the Thrun slot is probably where you put Blood Baron. Splitting BBV and Baneslayer makes sense. That puts you up to 4 5s, which is slightly high, but as long as you keep the Tribe-Elders you should be fine.

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

Deeds and Nightmare are obvious staples.

Fetters....I both agree and disagree. Being out of Decay range is sick, and yes, the 4 life point gain has won me games. However, O-Ring can be brought back with Sun Titan. O-Ring is also better against OmniTell, and is better in the Rector vs attacking Emrakuls showdown. I feel like there should be a Fetters and an O-Ring somewhere in the 76, because they're each marginally better vs different things now, post-rules change.

Recycle is an interesting quandry. Drawing cards is obviously always good, but Primeval Bounty is pushing the limits a bit too much to ignore. Bounty also has a nice synergy with Green Sun, whereby the Bounty will trigger, but not resolve until after GSZ finishes resolving. That ensures you'll have a creature in play to put the counters on. Cabal Therapy interacts favorably here, as well, as you can easily give something +6/+6. On things like Sigarda, Baneslayer, and BBV, that's an especially horrifying thought.

There's another strike against Recycle, too. There's a LOT of decks packing discard right now. Deathblade and Esperblade can discard/snap-discard; Deathblade, Shardless, and Jund all run Hymn, Liliana is everywhere, etc. In a heavy counterspell meta, Recycle is a bit better....but the way the meta is right now, I don't think I would chance running Recycle. I think I would actually run Primeval Bounty instead as a "bomb enchantment."

Tops are obviously fine. We'll just ignore those.

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Abrupt Decay

I ran 3 Zenith in Rector for a long time, and eventually did end up pushing that to 4. While lategame you don't really get much value out of them because of only running 12 green creatures (assuming Thrun -> BBV), Green Sun is always a card you're happy to see in your opening hand. Additionally, if you find yourself getting stuck on 4 land a bit, then the 4th Zenith will help to fix that problem as well. There isn't anything else I would really cut, so I would say shave down to 2 Decays in favor of the 4th Green Sun.

2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

Personally, I'd rather have the 3rd Bayou over the 7th fetch, but I think that's mostly just a matter of personal preference. Otherwise, I have no complaints regarding the mana base.

//SB
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate -> Duress
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Of these, the following are staples that I wouldn't touch:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Extirpate

That leaves you with 5 flex spots.

I think that for Somerset, I would actually just drop Moat altogether. Likewise, the two spot removal spells aren't really that important anymore with the Decays replacing them in the maindeck. The Leylines of Sanctity are still solid, but I'm not sure whether they are where you want to be or not.

For your list and for the expected meta at Somerset, I would recommend the following:

3 Carpet
2 Trap
3 Extirpate
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
1 Angel of Despair
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Batterskull
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide

Rationales:

3 Carpets are one of the biggest reasons to play a non-Scapewish list, IMO. Carpet of Flowers is a grossly underestimated card, and I can't really rave about it enough.

2 Traps, shaving one. While Mindbreak is something you very much do want, consider the unique circumstance of Somerset, which is that the Invitational is there. In the Invitational, fewer people play combo decks due to the nature of the event (including that the top 8 consists of 5-game matches, wherein the consistency problems of combo can catch up). While I still expect some OmniTell and Sneak, I don't think there will be much Belcher, High Tide, and other Storm variants. As such, I feel comfortable shaving a Trap to make space for slower, more powerful combo hate.

3 Extirpates are generically good against most things. You could replace these with Duress, but the Leyline of Sanctity-powered combo decks will just take you up the ass. At least with Extirpate, you can screw up their cantrips -- with a very real chance of just winning if they don't open Leyline, by Therapying and Extirpating critical combo pieces. There's also the old Therapy/Extirpate trick whereby you can "Probe them" by Extirpating their Brainstorms if they Brainstorm in response to Therapy. Additionally, Extirpate is solid vs Intuition and Sneak Attack.

1 Humility for the Sneak Attack decks, Reanimator, and arguably for Elf Combo. You also need to respect the possibility of some Dark Depths action, which Humility may become painful, but necessary to fight. It's not going to be boarded in often, but when you do, it should win you the game on the spot should it see play. Just don't fall into the trap of over-boarding it, because 9/10 your creatures are better than your opponents'.

1 Nether Void. If you still haven't gotten this, I really can't recommend it enough. It takes most combo decks up the ass so hard. It's also a potent Show vs OmniTell. Again, if you don't have access to one, run Curse of Exhaustion. If I was going to be there, I would loan you mine....but sadly that isn't in the cards =(

1 Angel of Despair for Show and Tell, and for the grindy fair.dec mirrors where having an extra couple bombs isn't a horrible idea.

1 Qasali Pridemage, as a concession to things like Miracles, Leyline-powered combo, and maybe sometimes Esper/Deathblade if you can catch them with their pants down.

1 Batterskull, also for the fair.dec mirrors.

1/1 Cranial twins for any combo or Jace deck. I've talked about these at great length in the thread. Leyline still makes them a bit worse, but you need to hedge that if they have Leyline and they keep Leyline in play, you aren't going to win anyway. These are simply the best way to win if Leyline isn't on the field, period. If you do get paired vs TES and you actually get a shot with one of these, remember to aim for their Burning Wishes.

[jarvisyu]

Double post, but I thought I would share this for the lolz:

http://llarack.blogspot.com/2013/07/focus-on-legacy-nic-fit-aka-ramp-decks.html

'for the lolz'....

...

[jarvisyu]

yup, you're right, i clearly am not allowed to have an opinion.

if you're doing well with it, then by all means, go ahead and keep going ahead and playing it.

[Arianrhod]

yup, you're right, i clearly am not allowed to have an opinion.

if you're doing well with it, then by all means, go ahead and keep going ahead and playing it.

I think that Tim's lolz was more referring to the fact that we all already know everything that you said about the archetype, not that you did anything wrong. Your opinion wasn't the one that grated on me (that was the twitter conversation). To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that you included the archetype in your gloss of legacy at all. Most pundits seem to regard the deck as not worthy of even that much attention -- so for that, you have my thanks. It's not your responsibility that your bringing the deck up summoned the trolls.

[jarvisyu]

I think that Tim's lolz was more referring to the fact that we all already know everything that you said about the archetype, not that you did anything wrong. Your opinion wasn't the one that grated on me (that was the twitter conversation). To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that you included the archetype in your gloss of legacy at all. Most pundits seem to regard the deck as not worthy of even that much attention -- so for that, you have my thanks. It's not your responsibility that your bringing the deck up summoned the trolls.

i mean, the intended audience was not you guys, really..

considering how you post on a legacy forum...

but this 'Yeah I saw this when Koby retweeted it, and immediately facepalmed at the discussion. Just another example in the long litany thereof showcasing the degrees to which Nic Fit is generally looked down upon. Meh. Not our fault that 80% of people who pick up the deck can't actually play it.' seemed to sort of imply that you were unhappy with what I wrote.

If that's not the case, I appreciate it.

[Arianrhod]

i mean, the intended audience was not you guys, really..

considering how you post on a legacy forum...

but this 'Yeah I saw this when Koby retweeted it, and immediately facepalmed at the discussion. Just another example in the long litany thereof showcasing the degrees to which Nic Fit is generally looked down upon. Meh. Not our fault that 80% of people who pick up the deck can't actually play it.' seemed to sort of imply that you were unhappy with what I wrote.

If that's not the case, I appreciate it.

No, sir. I was only referring to the Twitter stuff that followed your post, not your post at all. 100% fine with your content =)

[jarvisyu]

No, sir. I was only referring to the Twitter stuff that followed your post, not your post at all. 100% fine with your content =)

for the record, i really like the idea of scapeshift here. then again, i am addicted to putting lands into play and having them kill my opponent...

[HoneyT]

I think that Tim's lolz was more referring to the fact that we all already know everything that you said about the archetype, not that you did anything wrong. Your opinion wasn't the one that grated on me (that was the twitter conversation). To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that you included the archetype in your gloss of legacy at all. Most pundits seem to regard the deck as not worthy of even that much attention -- so for that, you have my thanks. It's not your responsibility that your bringing the deck up summoned the trolls.

Yes, I didn't mean to sound condescending. Just something to share for funsies. Other than the particular lists you used (Foothills strictly better than Heath, Scapewish sideboard is pretty bad etc.), the fact that you bothered spending time talking about the archetype is very cool.

[jarvisyu]

Yes, I didn't mean to sound condescending. Just something to share for funsies. Other than the particular lists you used (Foothills strictly better than Heath, Scapewish sideboard is pretty bad etc.), the fact that you bothered spending time talking about the archetype is very cool.

this anonymous guy in the comments sure hates any possible ideas i had. maybe the lists weren't perfect (as you listed), but hopefully this isn't some source guy.

[Arianrhod]

this anonymous guy in the comments sure hates any possible ideas i had. maybe the lists weren't perfect (as you listed), but hopefully this isn't some source guy.

I'm hoping not, too. His comments are fairly petty and unnecessarily incendiary. I'm ridiculously proud of the community that we have built up on the Source, here -- hoping it's not one of ours =/

[HoneyT]

this anonymous guy in the comments sure hates any possible ideas i had. maybe the lists weren't perfect (as you listed), but hopefully this isn't some source guy.

I just now read all the comments in the blog. I understand now why you took me sharing it "for the lolz" that way. That was purely coincidence however and I assure you that I am not Mr. Anonymous. And I also certainly hope he isn't one of ours.

[Tao]

This is what I am currently trying. I will be afk for a few days so I post it now while it is not 100% complete yet. But I think I am far enough to post a competitive list.

It is different from most Nic Fit lists because it doesn't run any creatures except Explorer and Rector but with those two, Top, Therapy, Decay and Deed I still think this is enough Nic Fit to belong in this thread.

The deck focuses on Enchantments, Rector and Tokens instead of creatures and GSZ. The strengths of the Enchantments by themselves varies from strong to specialized but their main strength is their synergy with each other and with the rest of the deck. These synergies allow you to either lock your opponent out of the game or to bury him under card advantage.


4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
4 Lingering Souls
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Dovescape
1 Collective Blessing
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Faith's Fetters

SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Nevermore


Like with normal Nic Fit lists you win many games by simply killing everything the opponent has and then sticking something that he cannot deal with. Enchantments with CMC4 and greater are good at that because currently nobody can really kill them. Abrupt Decay doesn't quite do that. If the game doesn't go that way and you need to go bigger these are the synergies.


Synergies:

Humility + Lingering Souls / Assemble the Legion / PW Tokens

Collective Blessing + Lingering Souls / Assemble the Legion / PW Tokens

Dovescape + Abrupt Decay: makes tokens and the spell doesn't get countered

Dovescape + Rector: you can still resolve "spells" in the form of Rector while your opponent can't.

Cabal Therapy + Lingering Souls: a good way to use Therapy when you don't have the Explorer


Locks:

Humility + Curse of Death's Hold: A softlock (often hardlock) against most creature based decks. It can be a bit tricky to achieve because getting Humility first would turn off your Rectors and getting Curse first isn't always enough to live through the next turn. But fortunately you play a lot of Removal and you have Lingering Souls to prolong the games.

Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold: A softlock (often hardlock) against most Control and Combo decks. Get the Dovescape out first, then your next Rector is guaranteed to resolve.


Rector targets on their own:

4 Pernicious Deed

1 Collective Blessing

1 Humility

1 Dovescape: Instantaneous one-card win against every Combo deck. It is bad against the majority of decks and gets sided out more often than not but when it is good it is both unbeatable and irreplaceable so it is worth the main deck slot.

1 Faith's Fetters: not sure about this but I like the life gain and the flexibility

1 Curse of Death's Hold: Usually you want this to seal the deal after you already have Humility or Dovescape. But it can be a great card against especially Dredge and Elves, but also against decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes or other token strategies (Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer).

1 Assemble the Legion: Your tutorable win condition. It gives Control decks big trouble and overwhelms most things in the long run. I am not completely happy with it but there is no other useful Token producing Enchantment printed yet by WotC (Sacred Mesa dies to Abrupt Decay).

[Arianrhod]

Weird, but cool. Have the Decays been sufficient to deal with DRS, or do you think you need Swords as well, perhaps (or at the point at which we're Nic Fit, Path, because they're getting their basics anyway and this list can't Swords its own shit to stay alive)?

[Tao]

I have 4 Deeds, 4 Decays and an Innocent Blood (+ another Blood in the SB) for Shaman and 4 Tops to find the answers. DR Shaman was a big concern and I feel well equipped to deal with him. Garruk can also kill it even though that isn't always optimal or fast enough.

[Qweerios]

If you want to know what keeps Nic Fit's reputation as a non-Legacy deck going, look no further than this thread. After 250 pages of discussion, the lists posted here have almost nothing in common. Most of them are extremely clunky and filled with win-more cards that will get the job done sub-optimally. As it stands now, Nic Fit is a metagame predator, nothing more. Turning it into a balanced deck against the entire field is a lost endeavor because it lacks the cards to do so. The deck requires a 2 card combo to even "begin" and the disparity in the mana curve is too high for the immediate results of the cards on the high end of said curve. For this deck to even begin to be consistent, it would require an amount of manipulation that would put the bluest of blue decks to shame. And yet, Brainstorm and Jace are barely seen here, instead we get lists with a bunch of non-green creatures. There are rules by which to build Nic Fit just like there are rules by which to build RUG. Every RUG deck begins with the same 54 cards and leaves design space for 6 cards in the main and 15 in the SB. Whatever you choose to fit in those slots has to be in line with the deck strategy.

I suggest that we stop fooling ourselves into thinking that Nic Fit's poor performance is due to the "pilot skills" or "deckbuilder skills" of everyone outside of our elite little circle of sourcers and start posting lists that have more in common than their heavy reliance on Explorer + Therapy and a high mana curve. We could try and make this deck as optimal and consistent as possible for a change.

Here's a start:

CORE and SYNERGY
4 Veteran Explorer
-Additional colors, mana sink, sacrifice outlets
(Deed, GSZ, Top, Manlands, Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Intent)

4 Cabal Therapy
-Hand information, sacrifice effects, free bodies
(Thoughtseize, Gitaxian Probe, Academy Rector, Witness, Baleful Strix, Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms, Snapcaster)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
-Impactful green creatures, library manipulation
(Teeg, Ooze, Witness, Thrun/Sigarda, Top, Brainstorm, Jace)

4 Pernicious Deed
-Resillient permanents, Planeswalkers
(Explorer, Thrun, Top, Jace, Liliana, Garruk, Elspeth)

As a Legacy control deck, we need removal and disruption:


Innocent Blood
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Bolt
Punishing Fire
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress


And to glue it all together, we need manipulation and card quality:


Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Ponder
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Burning Wish
Living Wish
Birthing Pod


Balance the best cards with the most synergy and you have a basis for an argument on optimization and consistency.

[Star|Scream]

I think that the Scapewish version has been pretty much finalized, and imho is the most optimal version for this metagame. With blasts and Slaughter Games the deck has as good a chance of taking down combo as any other version (except maybe a heavy blue durdly version with 15 sb slots dedicated to it)

[conboy31]

Quick observation with your list Tao: your 2 creatures are both humans. 8 bodies might not be enough to consider a misers cavern of souls but it could be in consideration.

[Tao]

I hope you don't target my Rector list with that critique because it is pretty awesome.

But in general I agree that the thread isn't in top form. Here are my thoughts:

- the only three competitive archetypes at the moment are imo Scapewish, BUG and Punishing Nic Fit. All recent GB and GBw lists were simply inferior to these three. Of those three I don't like Scapewish too much because of the bad mana (too many lands) and the bad SB. I personally think BUG is the best version atm and it is very underplayed.

- instead of calling it "manipulation and card quality" you should say that the deck needs an engine. That way you can include Punishing Fire/Grove.

- I disagree that you can't build it so it is more than a Metagame predator. Same was said about Maverick and it is on top since forever.

@Conboy: Mana is too tight for that I think.

[Arianrhod]

/Shrug. You can not like Scapewish all you want, but it puts up results =/

Also, I've long said from the very beginning the I respect everyones' rights to brew. In fact, that is arguably one of the things that I like the most about the archetype: everyone gets to be a deckbuilder. It is exactly the opposite of RUG Delver, where you get a whopping 6 cards wiggle room that you can actually customize. Each and every Nic Fit deck is a personalized reflection of its creator, and I find that to be a beautiful thing.

Now, I WILL agree that some versions are just straight-up better than others. For example, I do believe that there is an optimal version of, say, a Panoptic Mirror build, to quote my most horrible idea. The issue is that the best, most idealized list for Panoptic will never be as good as even an unrefined Scapewish/Punishing/BUG. At the same time, I don't believe that we've yet delved the depths of what the Nic Fit engines are capable of achieving. I firmly believe that there are probably another 2-3 versions that are as viable as the "big three" -- they just haven't been found yet.

Maybe it is finally time to split the thread up -- make a new Established thread with an updated primer (yes, yes, I know) specifically for BUG, Scape, and Punishing; and then also make a thread in Developing for "Nic Fit R&D." While I believe that there is intrinsic value in having all Nic Fit discussion in the same thread, it does admittedly have some problems....and the cracks in the model are, in fact, starting to show. I think that BUG, Scape, and Punishing can all reasonably coexist in the same thread...I don't think we need to pollute the Source that much, lol. But, yeah. Maybe a thread specifically to tune/perfect those 3 and another thread to specifically try to generate brews to add to their number is a good plan.

-----------------

Also, since you unveiled yours a little early, I'll join you in that venture. Here's what I've been working on for a while now, tentatively dubbed Thunian Fit.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Academy Rector
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Spike Feeder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Nether Void

The basic premise is to take a rough Rector shell, cut out all the fluff and trim back on the Rector package, and then add in the Thune/Spike combo to give the deck a legitimate combo finish. Kitchen Finks is a solid guy in the shell, buying a lot of time and synergizing well with AAoT, Therapy, and Nightmare -- and at that point, literally all we need to add a secondary combo to the deck is a sac outlet (AAoT + Finks + sac outlet = infinite life + infinite of whatever effect you're saccing to. the +1/+1 counter from AAoT wipes out the -1/-1 from persist, allowing AAoT to act like a Melira).

Sticking points:

-) I want some number of Abrupt Decays or possibly Swords to Plowshares in the deck. Right now, it's sporting a grand total of 0 non-deed removal, and while admittedly the purpose of the deck is to go infinite and not care about their Goyf...some more early spot-defense would probably be a decent thing [of note, too, is that the AAoT/Spike combo does not care about DRS in the slightest, which I consider a strength).

-) I also want a Sylvan Safekeeper, because protecting the various bombs and combo pieces is pretty good. Sun Titan + Safekeeper is also hilarious. Good luck getting rid of that.

-) The sideboard is suuuuuuuuuuuuper rough right now. I can't make up my mind as far as quite how deep I want the wishboard to go. I know I'd rather have more actual sideboard than wishes, because this isn't a dedicated Wish deck. The Living Wishes are more to increase combo piece density than anything else, but at that point, you may as well run a few utility options as well, and then you start getting into trouble beyond that point. I will note that though Teeg is in the "wishable" section, he's actually to be boarded in, not Wished for [often anyway]. With Karakas and no planeswalkers, I feel less horrible about running Teeg alongside the 4-cmc+ hate (Memoricide, Void, Cranial, etc).

-) Primeval looks slightly weak, but he's unfortunately the best green-sunnable 6-drop bomb. Also, without Primeval, I'm unsure of how good the Karakas actually is. Sun Titan is still legit, but I can't figure out what (if anything) I want to pair him with. It may be that putting an Angel of Despair in maindeck alongside the one in the board would be correct. I don't really want to run Empath without a 2nd 6+ to tutor, but Sun Titan is too good not to run, IMO -- especially with this particular list's density at the 3-spot.

-) Option: raw-dog the Sun Titan, replace Empath with Diabolic Intent, replace the Primeval slot with Sylvan Safekeeper. Not sure if correct, but it's something I'm thinking about.

-) Varolz is here only as a sac-outlet. I don't foresee ever using his Scavenge ability. Unfortunately, the only other non-mana-requiring green-sunnable sac outlet is Scarland Thrinax, which requires red mana (mana cost = RGB). While Scarland's sacrifice ability is significantly more useful, being off-color is a deal-breaker. I also don't appreciate that Varolz is legendary, ergo Karakas-able if someone responds to Finks' persist trigger. Depending on whether I have the mana to recast Varolz or not, this may be a problem (and is another reason I want Safekeeper). Part of does want to include a Death's Shadow in the sideboard to Wish for, just to make Varolz actually do something. The better part of me realizes this is horrible, though, so I won't =)

-) It feels weird to build a Nic Fit list without a Thragtusk. But I'm not convinced that this version needs him -- Finks and Spike do the same thing, but for cheaper, and they combo whereas Tusk is just resilient.

-) I really want to call the deck either Angel: Season 6 (the combo being Angel and Spike does not escape my sense of amusement/buffy fandom); or else I want to call it I Wish I Had An Angel (because Nightwish). Both of these names will probably end up on a deck reg at some point, but will likely never make it to the internet.

[slikwilly]

Recycle is an interesting quandry. Drawing cards is obviously always good, but Primeval Bounty is pushing the limits a bit too much to ignore. Bounty also has a nice synergy with Green Sun, whereby the Bounty will trigger, but not resolve until after GSZ finishes resolving. That ensures you'll have a creature in play to put the counters on. Cabal Therapy interacts favorably here, as well, as you can easily give something +6/+6. On things like Sigarda, Baneslayer, and BBV, that's an especially horrifying thought.

I thought the Bounty trigger was more like Cascade, where the trigger resolves before the spell that was cast. I am far from the rules expert though, and unfortunately the M14 FAQ doesn't address this.

I am excited to see energy going into a build w/ Collective Blessings + Lingering Souls though. I gave it a brief shot a few months ago, but didn't put a whole lot of time in.

[Arianrhod]

I thought the Bounty trigger was more like Cascade, where the trigger resolves before the spell that was cast. I am far from the rules expert though, and unfortunately the M14 FAQ doesn't address this.

I am excited to see energy going into a build w/ Collective Blessings + Lingering Souls though. I gave it a brief shot a few months ago, but didn't put a whole lot of time in.

I asked in the Rulings forum on Salvation. Hopefully some errant bored high-level judge will answer the question soon. I could honestly see it working either way.

Edz: the response -- "The Primeval Bounty trigger will go on the stack on top of the Green Sun's Zenith. Since you must choose a target when the trigger is put on the stack there is no possible way to fetch a creature with GSZ and put the three +1/+1 counters on that creature with Primeval Bounty."

Unfortunate, but it makes sense. Testing will have to reveal whether this is actually an issue or not. My gut says Bounty is still fine even with this trick not working, but we'll see. I'm hoping to get some testing in between-rounds at prereleases this weekend.

[XdeckX]

Arianrhod I fail to see the added value of Academy Rector in the Archangel build.
Although I haven't tested the list or the Primeval Bounty as a card a gut feeling tells me that Primeval Bounty is just win more.
I just feel the list would be more streamlined without the Rector package eventhough that might worsen the combo matchup since you cant fetch the Nether Void anymore. You could either run some Decays of StP in the rector and Bounty spot.

Don't get me wrong... I do believe an Archangel has some serious potential but the Rector just feels out of place. In the original Rector list Rector was the focal point of the deck... now the focalpoint is Archangel (which is by itself pretty good) and the rectors are just nice but not stellar (as I would like her to be). Especially with the amount of DRS that's running around.

If I ever find the time I'm going to use your list as a startingpoint. :)

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod I fail to see the added value of Academy Rector in the Archangel build.
Although I haven't tested the list or the Primeval Bounty as a card a gut feeling tells me that Primeval Bounty is just win more.
I just feel the list would be more streamlined without the Rector package eventhough that might worsen the combo matchup since you cant fetch the Nether Void anymore. You could either run some Decays of StP in the rector and Bounty spot.

Don't get me wrong... I do believe an Archangel has some serious potential but the Rector just feels out of place. In the original Rector list Rector was the focal point of the deck... now the focalpoint is Archangel (which is by itself pretty good) and the rectors are just nice but not stellar (as I would like her to be). Especially with the amount of DRS that's running around.

If I ever find the time I'm going to use your list as a startingpoint. :)

Entirely possible this is the case. At the point at which the deck already wants sac outlets, Nightmare, etc, it felt like a free package to add. I'm going to start testing with them in the deck, and pay especial attention to them as I go. They may well end up not surviving the first round of tweaks.

[hymntotourcock]

People seem to be somewhat unimpressed with Nic Fit, and I think it's because it's a really, really fair deck. Maybe more of a fair deck than say maverick. Eschewing ScapeWish of course, the goal of Nic Fit seems to be:
1. run some interference
2. ramp some mana
3. land clock (in the form of creatures)
4. swing for a few turns.

Is this accurate? Is this reputation due to the somewhat weak early game? It seems that if we don't open up with Therapy the opponent is going to play in goldfish mode. As a Pox player who is admittedly a Nic Fit noob, I find the first turn is utterly essential to gain footing and prevent opponents from combo-ing, from Seizing you, etc. I posit that we need an increased amount of interference.

I am currently crafting a BGW list and I find it lacking in soft-locks that I feel are necessary to make it to the late game (which is where I'll be doing the winning, ideally). What sort of goodies can we employ to shut the opponent up, at least temporarily? I think the appeal of this deck to a Pox player is that the gameplan is almost opposite. Instead of killing your lands I'm gifting them to you. Ha!
How can we ensure that these gifted lands provide no advantage? What soft lock cards do we have access to? Are any one-sided? Let us pool ideas, yes?
Potential soft-lock pieces:
Trinisphere (admittedly weaker because we're bolstering their manabase, but still makes brainstorm, ponder, swords etc much less impressive. Our more expensive spells don't care though.)
Chalice of the Void (could be excellent with Explorer/Tower, but could suck when cast for 1.)
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (makes many of our spells cost more, but less of a problem for creature-heavy builds. MD storm-hate, helps in negating opp's land boost)
Etc.

In short, I find myself wanting more disruption.

[Arianrhod]

Quick note between prereleases from testing. Primeval Bounty has overperformed insanely. Still not sure about the Rectors themselves, but dear god is Bounty strong.

[Qweerios]

I have nothing against Scapewish, I just think it deserves a thread of its own. Personally I think it is both a bad Nic Fit deck and a bad Valakut deck at the same time. It is by far one of the most inconsistent combo/control decks I have ever played with its extremely sketchy starting hands, lack of manipulation, and vulnerable combo. If I wanted to build a Legacy Scapeshift deck, I would look at a RUG colored deck with Brainstorm and Jace to reshuffle Valakuts, red sweepers and removal to use the heavy red manabase, and something along the lines of Exploration + Life from the Loam to generate card advantage and serious ramp.

[Mono-Green]

I was turned to Nic Fit after a friend witnessed me abusing Deadbridge Chant in a standard match. He mentioned Recurring Nightmare and the shenanigans you could do. While I've played competitive Standard/Extended/Modern for some time I never got into Legacy until I moved and found a community for it. I currently play a GBW Rock/Good Stuff deck. To catch up I started over at MTG Salvation, which is where I was directed here. I then read everything since the beginning of the year. After all that reading, I have to say I agree with the post from Qweerios on why this deck under preforms . While I enjoy a good fun "kitchen table" brew, I'd prefer to fine tune a solid deck. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the last hundred pages or so were more of the former. (I'm looking at you Mirror and Navigator decks.)

The deck has a solid base to use, and I certainly think it can support a variety of brews; however, within each of those decks I think there should be somewhere around 50 cards we can agree upon. Scapewish lists seem the closest, BUG and Punishing Fit aren't to far behind. Though rarely seen, GB lists are fairly standard. Rector lists have a large variance, and I haven't seen a solid GBw build yet.

I think it's important to remember that just because we can cast expensive spells doesn't mean we have to chock full of them. I'd like to see builds that are more rounded. I don't buy into this deck just folding to combo, nor the idea of having an entire sideboard dedicated to beating combo. I think there is room to improve the match up within the first 60 cards, without sacrificing against fair decks.

There were a couple of cards I wanted to discuss as well. The first being Duplicant. It's a possible answer for nonwhite against Sneak and Show decks. You could can grab it via Fierce Empath, and it's easily hard casted.

The second card is Plow Under. It's one of my favorite unfun cards to play. People mentioned it as a Wish target over Ruination, and it was rightfully shot down. I think Plow Under could work in a GB or GBW Rock deck. With our ramp a turn three Plow Under is easily cast after the first two turns were Therapy, Explorer then flashback Therapy. With the recursion available in this deck we could cast it again and again to bury our opponents. I'm working on a build that uses it. I've not been unhappy to see it. Early on it can put you ahead for good. Later on it stalls your opponent. I'll keep testing and get back with the results.

[mini1337s]

I understand that this might sound ridiculous, but I wonder if a Scapeshift varient could be played solely in B/G, using Ob Nixilis instead of Valakut. It would also allow the deck to use Scapeshift for utility lands as well, as it could run Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, and Dust Bowl.
Even running Ob Nixilis without Scapeshift might have some value. The deck could gain a lot more value out of it's lands in the late game. Perhaps adopting the Burning Wish game plan, but subbing it for Living Wish with 4x Living Wish main, 3x Ob Nixilis main, 1x Ob Nixilis side?

If I'm in magical christmas land, please let me know :P

[hymntotourcock]

I understand that this might sound ridiculous, but I wonder if a Scapeshift varient could be played solely in B/G, using Ob Nixilis instead of Valakut. It would also allow the deck to use Scapeshift for utility lands as well, as it could run Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, and Dust Bowl.
Even running Ob Nixilis without Scapeshift might have some value. The deck could gain a lot more value out of it's lands in the late game. Perhaps adopting the Burning Wish game plan, but subbing it for Living Wish with 4x Living Wish main, 3x Ob Nixilis main, 1x Ob Nixilis side?

If I'm in magical christmas land, please let me know :P

Sounds fun in theory, but I think the power of Scapeshift is it's essentially a one card combo (obviously not counting the mountains/valakuts). You only really need one Scape to win. For this to work with ol' Obby, he would have to be in play first. I don't know how frequently you can generate 9 mana in a single turn, but a combo that requires two turns to go off is casual magic. Especially considering he has no protection I would probably leave this idea in the annals.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

hi everybody! i finished 1/2 in a tournament of 21 people with BUG fit depths. here is the decklist:

1 Primeval Titan
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Trinket Mage
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Expedition Map
3 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Simic Charm

The deck worked perfecltly: i won 2-0 against patriot, 2-0 against canadian, 2-0 against GWb zenith and IDthe 2 last rounds. In the top 8 i won 2-0 against GW zenith depths , i won 2-1 against WGb maverick depths and ID the final against darkblade.

The best cards in the deck were pernicious deed and primeval titan. Well that's all, the only i have to say it's that i won at least all the games with depths and that thespian is awesome ( it allows you to copy the dark depths of your opponent).

Tao if you remember i played against you in cockatrice with that deck!

[mini1337s]

Sounds fun in theory, but I think the power of Scapeshift is it's essentially a one card combo (obviously not counting the mountains/valakuts). You only really need one Scape to win. For this to work with ol' Obby, he would have to be in play first. I don't know how frequently you can generate 9 mana in a single turn, but a combo that requires two turns to go off is casual magic. Especially considering he has no protection I would probably leave this idea in the annals.
Tested it out. Cute, but too difficult to setup. Really win more.
If anyone wants Kitchen Table though, ooooohhhh boy.

That being said, it might be fine as a 1 of in a Living Wish board. When unchecked, it is stupid.

[honz]

@arianrhod: besides being a great finisher by itself, your decks seems to be begging for kalonian hydra. He makes archangel, volroz, and feeder all better, and most people cant handle an 8/8 trample.

@nils gutierrez: I think you would be better off running white and knight of the reliquary than trinket mage. Running white will also opens up alot of good cards. There may even be an enchantment that academy rector can grab that will get you dark depths/thespian. All i can think of is pattern of rebirth for primeval titan, but there might be something better i dont know of.

[DireLemming]

@nils gutierrez: I think you would be better off running white and knight of the reliquary than trinket mage. Running white will also opens up alot of good cards. There may even be an enchantment that academy rector can grab that will get you dark depths/thespian. All i can think of is pattern of rebirth for primeval titan, but there might be something better i dont know of.
Or replace the chaff with a couple of Intuitions or Gifts.

[CRich3]

I play tested rector version Sunday for about 6 hours and it still feels like I want more rector. Unless I draw all my enchantments he lets me take back control of the game when I'm behind. BBV didn't do me any good because only time I got to cast him was vs MUD facing a Wurmcoil. Other times I played blue decks and he just go countered. Hopefully I can test again this week before I go to NJ. But I'm thinking of cutting STE. Just need to figure out a replacement that still provides some type of card advantage.

I have completely changed the deck around. I have no 6 drop creature and I think I'm going to go down to 21 lands for the 4th Green Sun :). Going to be a interesting deck, hope it works.

[Tao]

Reworked my Rector list a bit. It is pretty strong. Removed Fetters and Sorin for 2 Thoughtseizes to reduce the average CMC. Improved the mana base and the SB a bit.

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Lingering Souls
4 Academy Rector
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Dovescape
1 Collective Blessing
1 Assemble the Legion

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

[Nils Gutiérrez]

Reworked my Rector list a bit. It is pretty strong. Removed Fetters and Sorin for 2 Thoughtseizes to reduce the average CMC. Improved the mana base and the SB a bit.

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Lingering Souls
4 Academy Rector
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Dovescape
1 Collective Blessing
1 Assemble the Legion

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

any maelstrom pulse? i see it week against jace. anyway nice deck!

[hymntotourcock]

Does Recurring Nightmare belong anywhere in non-Rector lists? Lingering Souls?

[Mono-Green]

Current list I'm trying out:
Creatures:13
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

Spells:25
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
2 Plow Under

Lands:22
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

I'm probably too in love with Plow Under, but there hasn't been a time I didn't want it when I've drawn it. I took out Garruk because he wasn't working as well as I wanted. I've enjoyed Recurring Nightmare and it's power to both reverse the tide of the game and soft lock an opponent.

I've played against Rock and Esperblade so far in testing.

I'm open to ideas and tweaks.

[Tao]

any maelstrom pulse? i see it week against jace. anyway nice deck!

Thanks.
The deck has a relatively high Mana curve already (Rectors, Garruks, Enchantments) which is why I cut Faith's Fetters even though it answered Jace. For the same reason Decay is much better than Pulse. With only 4 Explorers instead of 8 (no GSZ) the 2-drop removal is invaluable.

The goal is to beat U/W Jaces by getting Dovescape and then finding another Rector for Curse of Death's Hold. For G2 you get a few Sigardas to beat on Jace. But even though the deck already performs very well (try it) it still feels a bit "under constructon" so any input is very welcome.



Does Recurring Nightmare belong anywhere in non-Rector lists? Lingering Souls?

Recurring Nightmare does not belong in non-Rector lists anymore I think. I always loved the card but with Deathrite Shaman everywhere it has become too unreliable. Probably. If you get it to work it is still amazing. It is just awkward if you have a ton of mana and draw your late game win condition and it doesn't do anything because of a 1-drop.
I like Lingering Souls in theory a lot. It is good with Cabal Therapy and it is almost good enough just as a value card by itself. So if you have some synergies it is worth experimenting with (Rector into Collective Blessing; maybe Humility; maybe Stoneforge Mystic, maybe something else).




I'm probably too in love with Plow Under, but there hasn't been a time I didn't want it when I've drawn it. I took out Garruk because he wasn't working as well as I wanted. I've enjoyed Recurring Nightmare and it's power to both reverse the tide of the game and soft lock an opponent.


Plow Under sounds not good in a deck with Veteran Explorer in a format with Fetchlands. The point of Explorer is to abuse that the opponent most likely doesn't need the lands you give him. So if he fetches after an Explorer trigger and a Plow Under you achieved pretty much nothing with your 5-mana spell. Also the card quality of Plow Under is pretty low.

[hymntotourcock]

Current list I'm trying out:
Creatures:13
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

Spells:25
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
2 Plow Under

Lands:22
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

I'm open to ideas and tweaks.

This looks like a fun list, I'm happy to see all the disruption in Therapy, Thoughtseize, Lili. I would be interested to see how -2 Plow Under +2 Liliana performs.
How does a winning game look on average? Who is your all-star?
Does Wall of Blossoms do enough? How often can you GSZ out a Wall, then sac it to Cabal Therapy?
No Maelstrom Pulse? How do you defeat walkers?
I feel like NicFit should concentrate more on stocking Planeswalkers seeing as how they survive Deed every time. In my own list I think i will test 3 Liliana 1 Primal hunter.


Tao, how well does Lingering Souls/Liliana perform together? Have you tested this at all?

[Tao]

Not tested them together yet but they sound solid together. The synergy is nothing to be ecstatic about but both are good enough on their own anyway. Lingering Souls is also very good against a couple of problematic cards: Jace TMS, Tombstalker and Stage/Depths.

@Mono-Green's list: In general I like it a lot (except for the Plow Unders). It has the right mix of early disruption and late game win conditions. But I doubt that White is really worth it. Sigarda is amazing but it is not that much of a difference if you win with Yosei and Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. In the direct comparison I do not see why I would play these few expensive white cards over red for Punishing Fire, Huntmaster of the Fells and the amazing SB cards Red Blasts and Slaughter Games.

If you replace 2 Plow Under and a Nightmare with 3 Punishing Fire, and you replace the three White creatures and the Empath with 2 Huntmasters, a Broodmate Dragon and a Primeval Titan I think you end up with a better deck.


@Planeswalkers: I think the reason why we see so few Planeswalkers is that the green, white and black Planeswalkers are not good enough. Jace is in a different League. A couple Garruks or Lilianas are okay, but I wouldn't focus my deck around them. The synergy with Deed isn't that important because your creature win conditions survive most Deeds anyway and you don't care about things like Explorers, Tribe Elders and Witnesses dying.

[Mono-Green]

Plow Under sounds not good in a deck with Veteran Explorer in a format with Fetchlands. The point of Explorer is to abuse that the opponent most likely doesn't need the lands you give him. So if he fetches after an Explorer trigger and a Plow Under you achieved pretty much nothing with your 5-mana spell. Also the card quality of Plow Under is pretty low.

Because our opponents can't abuse Veteran Explorer the way we do is why Plow Under is effective. Most of the time our opponents will keep a one or two land hands. Hitting them with Plow Under after they drop their only lands is basically a Time Walk. During testing my opponent did have a fetch land in hand and was able to shuffle the second land draw away. On my next turn I played Witness grabbing back Plow Under ensuring that those were the only two lands he'd see and he'd keep drawing them instead of a business spell.


This looks like a fun list, I'm happy to see all the disruption in Therapy, Thoughtseize, Lili. I would be interested to see how -2 Plow Under +2 Liliana performs.
How does a winning game look on average? Who is your all-star?
Does Wall of Blossoms do enough? How often can you GSZ out a Wall, then sac it to Cabal Therapy?
No Maelstrom Pulse? How do you defeat walkers?
I feel like NicFit should concentrate more on stocking Planeswalkers seeing as how they survive Deed every time. In my own list I think i will test 3 Liliana 1 Primal hunter.

Liliana has performed well. I'm not in love with her because I'm not running a whole lot I readily want to discard.

Recurring Nightmare has been my all-star, looping Yosei or even Sun Titan. It's incredible how much I can abuse the card. What I've run into though is I often lack enough early game outside of discard and ramp that Recurring Nightmare is often how I have to climb back in the game. I've won more games at less than five life than I care to count.

I haven't used a GSZ for the wall. I'm more likely to grab an Explorer with it. The card draw is nice, especially when paired with Sun Titan. Admittedly this will likely be one of the first cards replaced.

The only walker I'm concerned with is Jace. And my best way to deal with him is never letting him touch the board. If I can't get my opponent to discard him, I use one of my fliers to take him out.

I've tried Primal Hunter and wasn't overly excited about him. The only time he won me a game was when I played him turn three after Therapy/Explorer/Flashback my first two turns. I built him up and kept swinging for the fences. I'd run more Liliana if I changed things up and had more to discard. Those changes would include adding Garruk back in, reducing the creature count while adding more disruption.


@Mono-Green's list: In general I like it a lot (except for the Plow Unders). It has the right mix of early disruption and late game win conditions. But I doubt that White is really worth it. Sigarda is amazing but it is not that much of a difference if you win with Yosei and Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. In the direct comparison I do not see why I would play these few expensive white cards over red for Punishing Fire, Huntmaster of the Fells and the amazing SB cards Red Blasts and Slaughter Games.

If you replace 2 Plow Under and a Nightmare with 3 Punishing Fire, and you replace the three White creatures and the Empath with 2 Huntmasters, a Broodmate Dragon and a Primeval Titan I think you end up with a better deck.

My reason for not running red is simply that I have an unhealthy passionate hatred to it. I think a white list (non-rector) has ton of potential. Maybe not the way I'm building it, but I do think it can be strong.

While red adds quite a bit of options for the SB, I don't see them as a reason to switch. Especially because there hasn't been an abundance of Show and Tell in my Meta.

[Tao]

The three strongest versions of this deck are currently Scapewish, BUG and Punishing Fire. These lists are the measuring stick. When you put up a list it will naturally be compared to the one closest to it. So if you have a combo-ish list it will get compared to Scapewish and if you have a Planeswalker based list it will get compared to BUG Fit. And if like in your case - and most straight GB lists - the deck is based on incremental card advantage and value creatures it will have to stand up to Punishing Fire versions.

The main problem is that your list is very similar to Punishing Fire lists so they are easy to compare but it is pretty much inferior in every way (except for Sigarda). Like I said I like your list a lot in general but don't see the point of the white cards, You only have 3 White cards in your maindeck and they all cost 5 or more Mana. And in the SB you could play Gaddock but there is nothing else that White has to offer for the SB. I can't say much about your problems with the color red.

[Qweerios]

Because our opponents can't abuse Veteran Explorer the way we do is why Plow Under is effective. Most of the time our opponents will keep a one or two land hands. Hitting them with Plow Under after they drop their only lands is basically a Time Walk. During testing my opponent did have a fetch land in hand and was able to shuffle the second land draw away. On my next turn I played Witness grabbing back Plow Under ensuring that those were the only two lands he'd see and he'd keep drawing them instead of a business spell.

That sort of testing isn't conclusive of Plow Under's effectiveness in any way. If your opponent doesn't play basics, he is either:

a) playing tempo, whereas it doesn't matter if you set him back 2 lands, they only need 1-2 to function and Plow Under is strictly win-more in that matchup, or;
b) playing a specific combo deck with no basics (T.E.S for example), in which case Plow Under is a terrible card because you will die before you can cast it.

When you can reach 5 lands and your opponent struggles with getting 2 in play while you are under no significant pressure because you can afford to cast a spell like Plow Under, it doesn't matter what you do really, that game is well in your favor...

Also, red is good because it has a 1 mana answer to our worst nightmares: Jace and SnT. Punishing Fire is far from being the main attraction if you ask me.

[hymntotourcock]

Has anyone tried Ghost Quarter in Nic Fit? I feel like nuking your opp's free basic lands could be beneficial. Most legacy decks play somewhere between 2-3 basics so it could pay off. Or is this more of my Pox side coming through?

[Zirath]

That sort of testing isn't conclusive of Plow Under's effectiveness in any way. If your opponent doesn't play basics, he is either:

a) playing tempo, whereas it doesn't matter if you set him back 2 lands, they only need 1-2 to function and Plow Under is strictly win-more in that matchup, or;
b) playing a specific combo deck with no basics (T.E.S for example), in which case Plow Under is a terrible card because you will die before you can cast it.

When you can reach 5 lands and your opponent struggles with getting 2 in play while you are under no significant pressure because you can afford to cast a spell like Plow Under, it doesn't matter what you do really, that game is well in your favor...

Also, red is good because it has a 1 mana answer to our worst nightmares: Jace and SnT. Punishing Fire is far from being the main attraction if you ask me.

Pretty sure Time Walking your opponent for two turns is fine. If they win through that, you were gonna lose anyways because that card was not going to be any less durdly than Plow.

[Tao]

Plow Under isn't even close to double Time Walk. Especially when it is about getting killed or not getting killed. It is way harder for the opponent to kill you after you play a Thragtusk or a Huntmaster than after a Plow Under.

[Zirath]

Plow Under isn't even close to double Time Walk. Especially when it is about getting killed or not getting killed. It is way harder for the opponent to kill you after you play a Thragtusk or a Huntmaster than after a Plow Under.

Is that really the card that you would draw instead of Plow Under? You aren't cutting threats for Plow, you are cutting other disruption.

[Arianrhod]

For anyone who cares, I top 8'd Mythic yesterday with the following Thunian Fit list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Volrath's Stronghold

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nevermore
1 Batterskull


Matchups were Burn (lol), BWR midrangeish (gate shell with better removal, basically), U/R Doug McKay.dec (which I lost to, because Delver is good when you can't find a deed and your draws are subpar), and Esperblade (then an ID for r5, and a split for top 8).

Vs Esperblade we were in turns for g3...I was on turn 3, had a board of Finks, Finks, and Spike vs his Stoneforge with a Sword of F/F and Batterskull on it. He's at >20 life, I'm at 17. I draw Archangel of Thune for my turn. It resolves. I go infinite, and casually kill him. This is what Rector was missing all along. Admittedly it's a 2-card combo, so it still isn't quite as "oops" as Scapewish is -- but just having a game-ending combo in general is pretty boss. The list definitely needs a bit of revising and tuning yet, but I'm pretty happy with a top 8 on Thunian's maiden voyage.