[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Schulzchop]

I feel that BUG Pod should run a Creeping Tar Pit. Its often my best maindeck card for fighting Jace. I also want to play Phyrexian Revoker out of the board, but its rough in matchups where you also want Deed (like miracles or shardless BUG). That being said, Revoker is attractive because we still need to pressure the opponent while dirsupting them, and that is probably still good enough to warrant inclusion. Currently I've been running Maelstrom Pulse as an answer to Jace and random catch all, but its never particularly impressive.

@Gft Regarding Vendilion Clique; I've been trying it main, and it seems to be very high variance. Often its a do nothing, and podding into it is certainly not exciting, but there are situations where having it main gets you out of tough spots, like nabbing an equipment fetched by SfM, taking a crucial combo piece on the turn they go off, and flashing in to pressure a Jace. I've liked the flexibility it offers, but maybe its better suited as a disruptive sideboard card that also offers a good clock.

Regarding Swan Song vs. Force of Will. Both of these cards have very real costs. With FoW, its pitching other blue cards that you may need to win the game (the crucial glen elendra, envelop, or whatever). With Swan Song, its that damn 2/2. I've been trying the 4 Swan Song plan, and its been very high variance. On one hand, it counters everything we care about short of Jace. On the other hand, the 2/2 can be very annoying, and in fact I've encountered multiple situations where I've attacked a Jace, had to Swan Song something (e.g. Entreat the Angels, Swords to plowshares) mid combat, and the stupid 2/2 then blocks and saves the Jace. In those situations, Envelop would've been insane. I haven't tested Pilferers yet, and I'm curious about others experience with it...like how many cards do you get on average with it. If Pilferers truly is good enough, I think that's definitely enough to sway the sideboard away from such universal answer as Swan Song.

Finally, I'm curious as to others experience with RIP miracles. I don't think I've won a single matchup against it. I usually board out the Explorers and other cards that are heavily reliant on graveyards and bring in things like Notion Thief and Swan Songs. I'm entirely open to the possibility that I'm approaching the matchup wrong.

[GtF]

Yeah I almost ran 1 tar pit. I could see it being good. The miracles matchup is one where cutting down on abrupt decays will definitely hurt a lot. The deck basically can't function with a rest in peace on the table. The easiest solution would be to have more in the board to bring in but space is an issue.

Force of will does have a cost, but the plan I was using post board against combo cut down on the pod plan significantly, leaving baleful strix as a card you can play if you need to but also one you could pitch to force of will with no problems. You could just replace them with more envelops but then you lose the ability to stop a turn 1 kill which is pretty nice. It also makes it riskier to tap out turn 2 for a pilferer with no force.

[Megadeus]

Gotta squeeze PFire/Groves in there obviously. Makes it easier to hardcast Kiki Jiki :wink:

And burning wish for versatility

[vilnico]

@Arian: whatever you smoke... I WANT IT !!!! :D
I have almost everything, I'll try that someday

@GtF: Thanks a lot for the thoughts, notably about the Thoughtseize.
I may turn it into the Phyrexian Revoker, and maybe keep the Notion Thief. I am somewhat worried about Jace, and Thief may shine there.
Agaist GY, I mean Reanimator and Dredge, do you feel the need for a Surgical Extraction ? I would say we have enough disrupt against Reanimator, and enough stuff to handle Dredge. Punishing Fire is another call though.

Lastly I am worried about the Decay singleton. I am thinking to turn the 3rd DRS into a 2nd Decay.
Also got a friend telling me that it is no time to play Deed MD, and that I should play Decays over Deed. That will be a last minute call based on gut feeling I guess...

I saw also a list on MTGO going 3-1, running Necomancy. I guess it's cute to abuse from GY with that, but don't see it that much valuable. I'd rather have a Brainstorm or GSZ over it.

So here is more or less what I will play:

Lands (21)

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (22)

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Eternal Witness
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk

1 Grave Titan

Spells (17)

3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge / Infest
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Notion Thief

[GtF]

Looks pretty good, all the changes you made are ones I was considering as well (including wickerbough over slime, though I've liked slime alright so far).
I don't really understand Necromancy. It has some slight synergy with the the deck but just seems like a less powerful Recurring Nightmare unless you happen to play against reanimator and "get them" with it.
I don't understand why it wouldn't be a good time to play Deed. Not only that, but when deed is bad against a deck, decay usually isn't much better anyway. I'd stick with the split.

[Tainted]

If you want to combo with kiki-jiki, red is enough, you don't need a penta. Just go Murderous Redcap into Zealous Conscripts untap pod with conscript, sacrifice redcap again into Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and the job is done.
Just be aware of potential Swords to Plowshares and DRS that will slow your combo down exiling redcap.
With a tricolor you can use you have space for Punishing Fire and Burning Wish.

[pfiremc13]

Or a single Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune, because why not?

And a melira, just for fun.

[litenkatt]

And a melira, just for fun.

Also, Donate and Illusions of Grandeur

Because that combo is awesome. And search the illusions with Rector, find Donate with Strix's.

Boom

[HoneyT]

Also, Donate and Illusions of Grandeur

Because that combo is awesome. And search the illusions with Rector, find Donate with Strix's.

Boom

Mise well play Bazaar Trader as a Pod target.

[Qweerios]

@Arian: whatever you smoke... I WANT IT !!!! :D
I have almost everything, I'll try that someday

@GtF: Thanks a lot for the thoughts, notably about the Thoughtseize.
I may turn it into the Phyrexian Revoker, and maybe keep the Notion Thief. I am somewhat worried about Jace, and Thief may shine there.
Agaist GY, I mean Reanimator and Dredge, do you feel the need for a Surgical Extraction ? I would say we have enough disrupt against Reanimator, and enough stuff to handle Dredge. Punishing Fire is another call though.

Lastly I am worried about the Decay singleton. I am thinking to turn the 3rd DRS into a 2nd Decay.
Also got a friend telling me that it is no time to play Deed MD, and that I should play Decays over Deed. That will be a last minute call based on gut feeling I guess...

I saw also a list on MTGO going 3-1, running Necomancy. I guess it's cute to abuse from GY with that, but don't see it that much valuable. I'd rather have a Brainstorm or GSZ over it.

So here is more or less what I will play:

Lands (21)

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (22)

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Eternal Witness
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk

1 Grave Titan

Spells (17)

3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge / Infest
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Notion Thief

I like the list as it is very similar to my BUG Pod list. Here's what I changed and why:

-3 Brainstorms makes my eyes bleed with rectal cancer secretions. Play none or play four at least. Take away a copy of whatever is not integral to your list such as a Decay, a Deed, or even a GSZ (because apparently that's not part of your "core" in Pod). I don't understand how someone with FoW syndrom (worry of blue sources) can make changes like Oracle > Wood Elves, and still not play 4 copies of BS. The first change you should make when you sleeve up a BUG Pod deck is to include 4 copies of BS... Only the Nic Fit thread proposes 1, 2, or 3 copies of BS in decks that can support it, along with other things like 5c Pod decks, "Whale Fit" Palinchron combos, and the infamous Ancestral-Panoptic-Command Control deck. That's part of why I love and hate this thread: It has all the creativity to make magical pony rides happen, and then it makes you fall over drooling and moaning over the millions of brain cells and potential booty calls you just lost for reading half of it.

-I don't see the point of playing a 2/2 split of Deed and Decay. Decay is much more versatile and flexible. Deed is a high impact card that has to be taken full advantage of in order to be effective, and that's not what a Pod deck does. Pernicious Deed is the kind of card your opponent wants to draw against you. Also, as a mid-late game deck, we need to survive the initial onslaught our opponent imparts on us. Delvers, Stifles, and Dazes will take you down quite easily if you keep a remotely clunky hand (it happens more often in real matches than gold-fishing sessions). I included 3 copies of Carpet of Flowers in my SB to combat Stifle decks, because Stifle is that good against us.

-This deck doesn't need the 3rd Forest. Just as most Nic Fit decks out there, the 3rd Forest is superficial and mostly there not to lose value out of multiple Explorer triggers. Traditional Nic Fit also tends to play more green-heavy cards. Unlike Nic Fit, Pod cannot afford to passively ramp to inevitability, it has to get its game on fast. Quite frankly, you don't need 6 basic lands to abuse Explorer. The first trigger is the most important, and we usually can abuse 2 triggers unlike most decks we face that can only get value out of 0-1 triggers. If anything, I would play a Dryad Arbor, or another DRS if you aren't already playing a full set. Dryad is so valuable as a GSZ target or when converting a fetch land into a potential Pod chain. If I didn't play 4 GSZ, with Arbor, I would definitely play 4 DRS.

-I agree with you that Wood Elves is sub-par. It is without a doubt one of the most underwhelming cards I have played in this deck. The Oracle is much better in its stead but, if it wasn't for your blue count, the 2nd Witness is much better. Witness is one of those Pod and GSZ targets, as well as natural draws that you want more than once in a Pod deck. Traditional Nic Fit plays 2 copies and doesn't use it nearly as effectively as this. Personally I still use Bone Shredder and I like that card a lot. The echo cost is as much of a blessing than a curse as it allows you to re-use the ability in conjunction with other cards more easily. Paying its cost twice is a small price to pay for the pressure Shredder takes off your shoulders. When he gets removed, it's a bit like getting your Snapcaster sworded after you sworded something with him. Removal is relevant against us and I'd rather have my opponent use it on my Shredder after I've paid the echo cost than nearly anything else. If anything, Necroplasm, Bone Shredder, Viridian Shaman, and a 2nd Witness all look more promising than Oracle.

-Murderous Redcap is 4 mana. As I read your post I get that you probably categorized him as a 3drop. It is important that you have at least four 3drops in your deck because those, along with 2drops, tend to be the critical CMC for impactful Pod chains. I think that your deck is a little light on 3drops and a little too heavy on 4drops as it is now. I suggest replacing Wickerbough Elder with a Viridian Shaman. It is your Harmonic Sliver and you will beg for it more often than not. I play 4 Pods and 2 Enchantments in my Junk list and Harmonic rarely cannot be played in fear of losing any of them.

-I am still not convinced of Strix's superiority over Blossoms even in BUG variants. If anything, I think you should definitely replace 1 Strix with 1 Blossoms when you play 1-4 GSZ. As your list stands now, you have no GSZ targets at 2 that you want to pod out and that, to me, seems very relevant.

-I never liked SB Jitte and Revoker in this deck. It is very difficult to side in non-combo hate cards without lowering the creature count. I find Golgari Charm to be extremely valuable as an out to RiP, board wipe against swarms and Moms, and as a mass regeneration effect against particular sweepers. RiP + Goblins or RiP + Mom are also very common combinations that makes Golgari Charm extremely versatile in certain matchups. One of the main strengths of Charm as a SB card in Pod is the fact that it comes in as a replacement for Cabal Therapy and still acts as an outlet for Explorer. Revoker is simply underwhelming and stops your Pod chain for an effect that is rarely worth it.

-Toxic Deluge is a liability and its effect is not necessary. A Virtue's Ruin, a Massacre, or a Golgari Charm generally induces similar or superior results without costing you life to do so. Finks and Thragtusk can give you life, but Pods and Creatures constantly take life points away from you as well. A sweeper is there to get you back in a losing battle, and I don't think paying life is the safest way to get it to work. Deluge is a great card without a doubt, just not in this deck, at least compared to its alternatives.

Overall, I think the quest to support SB FoW is a step in the wrong direction for this deck. It keeps you away from a strong synergistic core of green and black cards that benefit from only a few blue cards. I think a combination of Thoughtseize and Surgical is the way to go as a primary disruption SB plan because it is highly synergistic with your inherent game plan, and quite honestly, very reliable despite a couple Leylines here and there. Envelop and Swan Song are definitely the way to go against SnT decks IMO.

EDIT: Let's not forget Coiling Oracle vs. Blossoms and Strix as well. It is more easily casted, it ups your blue count, it can ramp, and it can be GSZ'ed!

[Tao]

Play none or play four at least.

That is a terrible argument. Not saying that he shouldn't but the argument "play 4 or 0" is always terrible (unless you have something like Accumulated Knowledge).




That's part of why I love and hate this thread: It has all the creativity to make magical pony rides happen, and then it makes you fall over drooling and moaning over the millions of brain cells and potential booty calls you just lost for reading half of it.


Agreed, 100 times.




I don't see the point of playing a 2/2 split of Deed and Decay. Decay is much more versatile and flexible. Deed is a high impact card that has to be taken full advantage of in order to be effective, and that's not what a Pod deck does. Pernicious Deed is the kind of card your opponent wants to draw against you.


Yeah, but he would blow it up for 4 or more and then it would be great against us. We can use it for 1-3 and not lose anything that we care about while the opponent loses his entire board. Deed is a key card and we should play at least 2 or 3 and I won't fault anyone who plays 4.



This deck doesn't need the 3rd Forest. Just as most Nic Fit decks out there, the 3rd Forest is superficial and mostly there not to lose value out of multiple Explorer triggers. Traditional Nic Fit also tends to play more green-heavy cards. Unlike Nic Fit, Pod cannot afford to passively ramp to inevitability, it has to get its game on fast. Quite frankly, you don't need 6 basic lands to abuse Explorer. The first trigger is the most important, and we usually can abuse 2 triggers unlike most decks we face that can only get value out of 0-1 triggers. If anything, I would play a Dryad Arbor, or another DRS if you aren't already playing a full set. Dryad is so valuable as a GSZ target or when converting a fetch land into a potential Pod chain. If I didn't play 4 GSZ, with Arbor, I would definitely play 4 DRS.


5 Basics is not enough. I am always an advocate for reducing the Basic count but 6 is the lowest number I am comfortable with.



I agree with you that Wood Elves is sub-par. It is without a doubt one of the most underwhelming cards I have played in this deck. The Oracle is much better in its stead but, if it wasn't for your blue count, the 2nd Witness is much better. Witness is one of those Pod and GSZ targets, as well as natural draws that you want more than once in a Pod deck. Traditional Nic Fit plays 2 copies and doesn't use it nearly as effectively as this.

Both give you a random body and a card to your hand. Oracle is amazing in games when you search for Pod while Witness is often underwhelming, especially in a deck with a low spell count like Pod where you can't get back Decays or additional Discard spells.



I never liked SB Jitte and Revoker in this deck. It is very difficult to side in non-combo hate cards without lowering the creature count. I find Golgari Charm to be extremely valuable as an out to RiP, board wipe against swarms and Moms, and as a mass regeneration effect against particular sweepers. RiP + Goblins or RiP + Mom are also very common combinations that makes Golgari Charm extremely versatile in certain matchups. One of the main strengths of Charm as a SB card in Pod is the fact that it comes in as a replacement for Cabal Therapy and still acts as an outlet for Explorer. Revoker is simply underwhelming and stops your Pod chain for an effect that is rarely worth it.

Agreed with both. Don't like Jitte, and I am a big fan of Charm.


Toxic Deluge is a liability and its effect is not necessary. A Virtue's Ruin, a Massacre, or a Golgari Charm generally induces similar or superior results without costing you life to do so. Finks and Thragtusk can give you life, but Pods and Creatures constantly take life points away from you as well. A sweeper is there to get you back in a losing battle, and I don't think paying life is the safest way to get it to work. Deluge is a great card without a doubt, just not in this deck, at least compared to its alternatives.

Yeah, don't like Deluge either. I can't think of a matchup in which I would board it and then pay more 2 life (and at that point you could just Infest and pay 0 life).


Overall, I think the quest to support SB FoW is a step in the wrong direction for this deck. It keeps you away from a strong synergistic core of green and black cards that benefit from only a few blue cards. I think a combination of Thoughtseize and Surgical is the way to go as a primary disruption SB plan because it is highly synergistic with your inherent game plan, and quite honestly, very reliable despite a couple Leylines here and there. Envelop and Swan Song are definitely the way to go against SnT decks IMO.

I agree with you. Force often leaves us with not enough resources to keep going and every Combo deck in the format knows how to deal with FoW. A combination of Swan Song and Thoughtseize is imo better.

[guelahpapyrus]

@Qweerios: Do you have a current list for Pod that you can post?

[Qweerios]

That is a terrible argument. Not saying that he shouldn't but the argument "play 4 or 0" is always terrible (unless you have something like Accumulated Knowledge).

False, playing 0 or 4 of the best card in Legacy which strength lies in the fact that it markedly augments consistency, digs for key cards, and breathes life into dead cards is perfectly sound. For the same reasons that if Gitaxian Probe would cost 0 mana and 0 life to cast, every deck that could play 4 would. Brainstorm will always be the best card in your deck whatever you play even when Brainstorm isn't in your deck. Arguing against 4 BS in a BUG deck with 8 fetches is like arguing against a brick wall with your head, it doesn't work out too well... I won't argue any further on this issue because I think it is straight up silly.

Yeah, but he would blow it up for 4 or more and then it would be great against us. We can use it for 1-3 and not lose anything that we care about while the opponent loses his entire board. Deed is a key card and we should play at least 2 or 3 and I won't fault anyone who plays 4.

I would agree with you there if Deed and Decay overlapped in purpose. While they are both removal spells, one clearly occurs sooner than the other and allows us to take steam away from strategies that are at their strongest when we are at our weakest. Deed should compete with a card like Nightmare or Pod, not with a card like Decay or anything in the same branch (AKA: low cost enablers) such as GSZ, Therapy, and Brainstorm. Also, Deed is not a key card in Pod. Deed is a good card in BG(x) decks, more so in traditional Nic Fit than Pod by a significant margin.

5 Basics is not enough. I am always an advocate for reducing the Basic count but 6 is the lowest number I am comfortable with.

I don't know what you are basing this on. I gave you an explanation as to why 5 lands is enough, and you give me your personal bias. I play Control Nic Fit with 6 basics as well and I have tested Pod extensively over the last 4 tournaments and 3 weeks and concluded that 5 basics is more than enough. Mana dorks > Land drops for this deck because they convert into something else and grant the tempo we need to assert our game-plan in time. Therefore we don't need as many lands, and more creatures. Pod is not a conventional nic fit deck, it simply happens to abuse Explorer and Therapy in a similar fashion.

Both give you a random body and a card to your hand. Oracle is amazing in games when you search for Pod while Witness is often underwhelming, especially in a deck with a low spell count like Pod where you can't get back Decays or additional Discard spells.

I agree with you that they are both situational and apply to different situations. However, they are not equally relevant and Witness is much less underwhelming than Oracle. Getting back fallen bullets is often crucial and one of your only outs to a certain situation. Scrying 2 for a card will give often give you a land that you either need or do not, and witness can do that almost just as well by retrieving fetchlands. Oracle is good but you never dig for one. Witness is good but you often dig for one.

[GtF]

I didn't find Eternal Witness to always be that great. It was fine, I'd definitely play one, but I don't think it's so amazing that I'd want to play two. I agree with Tao about the reasons why.
The 3 brainstorm thing is weird, but it's also weird that you are so against playing less than four since you didn't even think it should played at all. The whole Force of Will blue count is actually an argument against having to play 4 - you are playing it to filter and up the FOW blue count, but once that count is as high as it needs to be, why add an extra one? That said, I could see playing 4, but I don't think it's as obvious as you say it is.
I haven't really played the deck enough to say whether 5 or 6 basics is better.
Like Tao said, popping Deed for 3 or less is really strong in this deck, you can usually end up with a creature above that to their nothing in the right circumstances. On the other hand, Abrupt Decay can be a lifesaver against a fast delver. I don't see why it's so wrong to run a split in a deck with tons of filtering and shuffle effects and one that is good at crafting an advantageous board state. If I had to choose, I'd choose Deed for sure.
I haven't actually tried revoker so I could see it being bad and not working well with the deck. However I have tried Jitte and found it to be really great in the right matchups. It makes those veteran explorers into real monsters.
On FOW - If you have a Pilferer or Glen Elendra going, there's no issue with "not having enough resources to keep going." The real way combo decks deal with Force of Will in the format is by preying on decks that don't have Force of Will, and think they can win with Thoughtseizes or hate bears alone. The deck's matchup G1 vs combo is bad, I see no reason not to try and commit to beating it the next two games. Also it's worth noting that if the game doesn't end immediately, hardcasting FOW becomes very possible in this deck before too long.

[Tao]

On FOW - If you have a Pilferer or Glen Elendra going, there's no issue with "not having enough resources to keep going." The real way combo decks deal with Force of Will in the format is by preying on decks that don't have Force of Will, and think they can win with Thoughtseizes or hate bears alone. The deck's matchup G1 vs combo is bad, I see no reason not to try and commit to beating it the next two games. Also it's worth noting that if the game doesn't end immediately, hardcasting FOW becomes very possible in this deck before too long.

That's a good point. My experiences were with BUG without Pod and whenever I had to pitch Jace to FoW it was really bad and I usually lost those games. But if you can pitch something like Strix it won't hurt too much. So yeah, I like that SB plan.

[Qweerios]

@GtF,

-I don't see where you get that I am somehow against playing Brainstorm entirely. I am curious to know where you got that idea from. I don't recall saying that it shouldn't be played at all, and I have been one of the few users on this thread that had to justify using Brainstorm in BUG Fit. Unless somehow promoting the Junk version makes me anti-brainstorm, I am at a loss here. I even mentioned in my last post that the first change you should make when adopting a BUG Pod deck is to up the BS count to 4...

-I think we all agree that trying to beat combo G2 and G3 is a sound plan, and probably our only reasonable alternative. However, hardcasting FoW is a moot point. Siding FoW against anything but combo is likely to be a mistake. Once you reach 5 lands vs. combo you ought to have something better to do than hardcast a FoW.


The whole Force of Will blue count is actually an argument against having to play 4 - you are playing it to filter and up the FOW blue count, but once that count is as high as it needs to be, why add an extra one?

What does this mean? "Force of Will blue count" is not an argument for anything, it is merely a requirement to be able to reasonably rely on FoW's alternate cost. When you say that "once that count is as high as it needs to be" do you imply that whatever amount of blue cards are present in your BUG Pod deck is optimal and somehow guarantees you a blue card for FoW, let along adequate leeway in what you pitch? And of all the blue cards in your deck, it appears extremely contradictory that the one card that allows you to manipulate your hand and the top of your library is the one card not being played to its fullest. This makes no sense to me whatsoever, please explain in a clear and concise fashion what this argument for playing less than 4 BS in relation with FoW's blue count is.


That's a good point. My experiences were with BUG without Pod and whenever I had to pitch Jace to FoW it was really bad and I usually lost those games. [B]But if you can pitch something like Strix it won't hurt too much.

Let me get this right... Pitching cards to FoW makes me feel bad and makes me lose. How does pitching Strix "hurt less" than pitching a Jace? Either FoW is a bad card, either you made the wrong call by pitching Jace to FoW. It doesn't matter what blue card you pitch, you will have to pitch one and it will be the worst blue available. The more blue cards you have available, the more flexibility you have in what you pitch. Are you suggesting that we should play worst blue cards so that we feel less bad about pitching them?

@Evertbody reading this,

A good trick to anyone hitting the "Submit Reply" button is to try and think of counterarguments to what you are advancing. Be critical of what you assert and we might end up with better conclusions to successfully optimize our decks. Maybe I am alone in this enterprise but I don't believe that a good discussion revolves around you showing me what is dear to you, me showing you what is dear to me, and leaving it to that because we cannot inquire on our preferences any further. For the sake of development, let's use reason to support our choices and all will be clearer.

[Schulzchop]

It seems to me that the reason the previously proposed lists are only playing 3 Brainstorm is because there is no other card in the main that they would want to cut to add the fourth. Would it be possible to propose which card we should cut for the fourth BS and explain why it is okay to run less copies of that card, or, alternatively, can we explain why we need all of the copies of the cards in the current configuration and justify why 3 BS is OK? (AS an example, why would one want 2 Deed, 2 Decay, 3 BS over 2 Deed, 1 Decay, 4 BS).

[vilnico]

Mostly @ Qweerios:

I am getting convinced to have the 4th Brainstorm in place of the 2nd GSZ. Not because it is 4 or nothing, just to be clear.
Mainly, because of the SB plan based on FoW. Having a decent count of blue card, or just finding a FoW, justify to have 4 Brainstorm.
I think what GtF was meaning was your thinking to play 0 or 4 brainstorm was too straight forward, pointing at the authority argument that came fist.
The thing is that I do not see myself why playing 3 copies of Brainstorm could be "that bad". It does not seem so bad, after GtF results. If it is optimal, is another question I think, and I can't answer the question before playing a 3-Brainstorm list, sorry I can't bring more stones here (and probably won't happen as I will play 4 this WE).
Although I think it is as Schulzchop said, either Caleb (see the SCG article about it) and GtF wanted to cut out anything to play the 4th Brainstorm. GtF can correct if we are wrong here.

The blue card count is also the argument that will make me keep the 4th Strix over a possible Wall of Blossom. Although as you mentioned Coiling Oracle I totally forgot about, I can think to have it in place of the 4th Strix. Thx for bringing this up !!

About the 2nd Witness, I used to test this on some other Nic Fit shell, and was not very satisfied of it from what I remember. Also the Nightmare is somewhat the 2nd Witness you may need in late game. All I can say, is that my experience of playing 1 Witness even without Nightmare was sufficient.

Thx to point out my bad listing of Redcap. Have never played it actually and never realized it costs 4ccm.
I hear the worries about the lack of 3ccm creatures, I just don't know if the Finks persistance does not make it sufficient or not.
Viridian Shaman is NOT a Harmonic Sliver. Would I play W in the list, I agree it would be auto-include. And I want to have a response to Enchantment as well, which Viridian Shaman does not.
A decent G slot would be Viridian Zealot, but we have enough 2ccm creatures I think.
Elder has the advantage to be a nice body, 4/4 making it somewhat as good as the Deathtouch from the Slime in terms of defensive ability.

On the Decay/Deed split: I agree on what Qweerios points out, what Nic Fit needs is answers to early threats, to be able to value abuses on Vet.Explorer. That's how I turned a DRS into a Decay, and will probably motivate me to turn a Deed into a Decay.
I don't have experience on Jitte on such SB plan, and there seem to be more people "against" it. I see the difference between Jitte and Golgari Charm. The question here is I think, do we want a sweeper (Charm, Deed) over a permament lock (Jitte) ? As a Nic Fit player, I never felt the need to have such a thing as a Jitte, even if it may work very fine. I think my reasonning here is the same as the Decay/Deed split question: I think we need is a fast answer to threats, to clean up the board and come back. So the Jitte may turn into the 2nd Deed (assuming I go for 3/1 Decay/Deed), or a 2nd Golgari Charm...

Overall Qweerios, you argue that diluting the BG power of Nic Fit into a blue sideboard is not the way to go in a combo field (for a Nic Fit).
Although I do agree that a BGw Pod-list is stronger than a BGu Pod-list, in terms of the original mechanics, my gut feeling here (soon hopefully this will turn into experience), is that the dilution we have in this BGu is not too bad, and still permits a decent Pod mechanics. To me it is a good balance for Nic Fit to go on a combo field.

So in the end, here is the last list in date:

Lands (21)

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (22)

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Eternal Witness
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Kitchen Finks

1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk

1 Grave Titan

Spells (17)

3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge / Infest
1 Golgari Charm
1 Golgari Charm / Pernicious Deed

1 Thoughtseize / Phyrexian Revoker / Venser
1 Notion Thief


To answer Schulzchop, if I were to cut something MD to play the 2nd GSZ, it might be the Sower. I might be wrong though.

[Arianrhod]

For those who are interested, here are the lists I will be running at Eternal Weekend. I'll keep you guys updated on how things are going, as usual =)

Legacy:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Vintage:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Rune-Scarred Demon

1 Time Walk
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Noxious Revival
1 Yawg Will

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Repeal

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
2 Swan Song
2 Mental Misstep

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island

--sb
1 Lab Maniac
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Qweerios]

Mostly @ Qweerios:

I am getting convinced to have the 4th Brainstorm in place of the 2nd GSZ. Not because it is 4 or nothing, just to be clear.
Mainly, because of the SB plan based on FoW. Having a decent count of blue card, or just finding a FoW, justify to have 4 Brainstorm.
I think what GtF was meaning was your thinking to play 0 or 4 brainstorm was too straight forward, pointing at the authority argument that came fist.
The thing is that I do not see myself why playing 3 copies of Brainstorm could be "that bad". It does not seem so bad, after GtF results. If it is optimal, is another question I think, and I can't answer the question before playing a 3-Brainstorm list, sorry I can't bring more stones here (and probably won't happen as I will play 4 this WE).
Although I think it is as Schulzchop said, either Caleb (see the SCG article about it) and GtF wanted to cut out anything to play the 4th Brainstorm. GtF can correct if we are wrong here.


Once you establish basics like the laws of gravity, you start speaking of certain phenomenons as being commonly understood based on the acceptance of such a universal law. There are principles in Magic that stipulate that the best decks are always the most consistent ones. This has been proven throughout the ages in every format when the best deck is always the one taking the most broken interaction and replicating it with the most consistency. If your deck plays fetchlands or a significant amount of free shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the best card in the format, period. Brainstorm is your best attempt at consistency if you can support it. Stating that Brainstorm is a 0 or 4 card is pragmatic and shouldn't be subject to debate if you take half a second to think about why it is so instead of dwelling on the semantics of such an argument. Just like the laws of gravity, you can argue against it as much as you want but it won't get you anywhere unless you advance groundbreaking observations against it. If you intend on reaching UB in a green-centric deck by T2-3, 4 copies of BS is a no-brainer. Hell, 4 BS would increase your consistency even if they were your 61st-64th cards!

Looking at 3 copies of BS and thinking that it isn't bad because someone had success with 3 copies is akin to thinking that punching a kid is not bad because you know kids get murdered around the world. You can look at all the alternatives you want to justify your lack of 4 BS but the fact remain that it is not the optimal choice. If you look at GtF's results (which could have been affected by a myriad of elements), meticulously count the amount of blue cards, and factor in the timmy in you that wants to play these never-seen-before cards, then 3 brainstorms appears not bad. If you want to make your deck optimal, 3 brainstorm is bad, 4 brainstorm is good.

GSZ is merely a BS#5-8 for this deck except that it is limited to green creatures. They are both measures of consistency with their own specializations and flexibility. If it came down to it, I would cut a 1drop or a 2drop that I have multiple copies of in a hearbeat for another copy of GSZ. This is a green-centric silver-bullet type creature deck we are talking about. 4 GSZ and 4 BS should be the first thing you put in your list and see where it leads you from there. The moment you start running out of relevant targets is the moment you should consider increasing your creature density and lowering your GSZ count.

As you will soon discover, Batterskull and Jitte cannot go unchecked. Wickerbough is fine, and so is Viridian Shaman. Harmonic handles artifacts more than anything else. Most enchantments you will encounter can be dealt with Decay, while the most relevant Artifact against you cannot be. Any PW protected by a Bskull will outvalue your Pod engine, and thats even more true for BUG variants as their Pod chains are significantly weaker.

Also, Finks is rarely what you want to Pod into at 3. Getting a Terror out of Shredder, a card back from Witness, a cantrip from Oracle, or artifact removal from Viridian Shaman/Sliver is almost always what you want out of your Pod chain to maximize its value. Finks is the Pod target I search for the least at 3, and by far. I like him against Pox, Burn, Mongoose, Geist, when under pressure, or when I intend on getting a 2nd 4drop. I don't like him when I am trying to get the most value out of my Pod chain (AKA: most of the time). I think you are more likely to feel the drawbacks of running out of 3drops than to feel the advantages of that additional 4drop.

On to constructive criticism:

I have been thinking about replacing Recurring Nightmare for Havengul Lich. Without Rector, I think that if Lich proves to grant similar value to Nightmare, the fact that it is Pod-able and consists of a creature might be worth it. I have enjoyed taking over games with Lich by looping Bone Shredders every turn and stealing the Goyfs I would blow up. It also has some nice synergy with cards like Viridian Zealot. It is reasonably sized as well with a 4/4 Decay/Bolt-proof body.

[Tao]

That's an argument for 4 Brainstorm. I don't necessarily disagree with it but that is not what you said. You said "either 4 Brainstorm or 0 Brainstorm" and that still doesn't make sense.

[pfiremc13]

I think his argument is that with cards like brainstorm you either always want it, or never want it because you think it's bad. Since brainstorm just depends on the cards on top of your library, I would agree. (Though I do think it's a weird argument to make)

[Qweerios]

You said "either 4 Brainstorm or 0 Brainstorm" and that still doesn't make sense.

It is quite staight-foward once you get down to it. Let me explain in intricate details.

You should play 0 Brainstorms if you cannot support them.
You should play 4 Brainstorms if you can support them.

I define "supporting them" as having reliable access to blue mana and sufficient amount of shuffle effects.

Reliable access to blue mana includes, but is not limited to: the availability of blue mana producing lands.

Blue mana producing lands are most popular in the form of basic Islands, and non-basic Islands commonly known as blue dual lands.

Said lands are made readily available by fetch lands which incidentally consist of shuffle effects.

A sufficient amount of shuffle effects includes, but is not limited to: the commonly agreed upon critical amount of fetch lands which is 7+

Therefore, 7+ Fetch lands along with blue mana producing lands constitutes a supporting core for the card known as Brainstorm.

Brainstorm in a Brainstorm-able deck is the best card to consistently achieve a strategy involving the combination of different cards.

The combination of different cards such as Lands, Creature, Instant, Sorcery, Enchantment, and Artifact spells for instance are crucial in the deployment of any strategy of the trading card game known as Magic: the Gathering.

In the MtG format known as Legacy, the minimum amount of cards a deck can contain is 60, and the maximum amount of copies of a single card is restricted to 4 (with the exception of basic lands).

The most consistent deck given 1 card drawn per turn must contain at least 15 different cards (with the exception of basic lands).

Since different cards are bound to be forced to coexist in the same deck, sequence and succession is bound to have an impact on the outcome of your strategy and game plan.

Cards like Brainstorm augments the rate of consistency and correct sequencing of cards of any given strategy falling under the previous conditions.

Assuming that consistency and sequencing is paramount to optimization, you should play the maximum amount of Brainstorms available.

Therefore any Legacy deck should play either 0 or 4 Brainstorms.

Unbeknownst to me, this never gets old. I have been explaining the virtues of Brainstorm to this thread for years now, and the only logical conclusion I derive is that I must be retarded in some odd way...

[GtF]

It is quite staight-foward once you get down to it. Let me explain in intricate details.

You should play 0 Brainstorms if you cannot support them.
You should play 4 Brainstorms if you can support them.

I define "supporting them" as having reliable access to blue mana and sufficient amount of shuffle effects.

Reliable access to blue mana includes, but is not limited to: the availability of blue mana producing lands.

Blue mana producing lands are most popular in the form of basic Islands, and non-basic Islands commonly known as blue dual lands.

Said lands are made readily available by fetch lands which incidentally consist of shuffle effects.

A sufficient amount of shuffle effects includes, but is not limited to: the commonly agreed upon critical amount of fetch lands which is 7+

Therefore, 7+ Fetch lands along with blue mana producing lands constitutes a supporting core for the card known as Brainstorm.

Brainstorm in a Brainstorm-able deck is the best card to consistently achieve a strategy involving the combination of different cards.

The combination of different cards such as Lands, Creature, Instant, Sorcery, Enchantment, and Artifact spells for instance are crucial in the deployment of any strategy of the trading card game known as Magic: the Gathering.

In the MtG format known as Legacy, the minimum amount of cards a deck can contain is 60, and the maximum amount of copies of a single card is restricted to 4 (with the exception of basic lands).

The most consistent deck given 1 card drawn per turn must contain at least 15 different cards (with the exception of basic lands).

Since different cards are bound to be forced to coexist in the same deck, sequence and succession is bound to have an impact on the outcome of your strategy and game plan.

Cards like Brainstorm augments the rate of consistency and correct sequencing of cards of any given strategy falling under the previous conditions.

Assuming that consistency and sequencing is paramount to optimization, you should play the maximum amount of Brainstorms available.

Therefore any Legacy deck should play either 0 or 4 Brainstorms.

Unbeknownst to me, this never gets old. I have been explaining the virtues of Brainstorm to this thread for years now, and the only logical conclusion I derive is that I must be retarded in some odd way...

You aren't retarded, but your style of argumentation is pretty arrogant. Comparing 4 brainstorms to the laws of gravity is an interesting technique. Talking down to people as if no one but you could possibly have a logical reason for an opinion is another. None of these are good ways to win arguments, in my experience. That's kind of a broader point about style, take it or leave it.

First, here's the reason I assumed you were anti-brainstorm in the first place:


2) Cutting GSZ, Pods, and Decays for Brainstorm unnecessarily stretches you thin on colors. Compare it to splashing blue in Maverick for Brainstorm. Maverick is entirely capable of splashing another color, and Brainstorm is a good card. However, the costs of splashing into blue for a card you probably want to use on T2 are too great and including Brainstorm forces you to dilute the core of the deck. 4 Moms, and 4 GSZ is much more consistent than 3 Moms, 1 GSZ, and 4 Brainstorm will ever be. When I compare playing BUG to Junk Pod, it feels like Brainstorm is there because I play Strix > Blossoms, and because I find myself digging for colors more often than I should if I didn't have Brainstorm and Strix in the first place. The notion that you need Brainstorm to reshuffle Pod targets is negligible in practice because it is often easier to cast non-green creatures than it is to brainstorm them away to Pod into them;

I assumed this meant that you thought brainstorm was unnecessary ("it unnecessarily stretches you thin on colors") and that GSZ, pods and decays were all better to play. I think this is a reasonable interpretation of what you wrote. But if that's not what you meant, and apparently you meant the exact opposite ("always play 4 brainstorm") then fine, so be it. So to address that point:

Brainstorm is a great card that helps with card selection and consistently executing a game plan. But it is still a magic card that takes up space in a deck, costs a mana to play, and in some sense "hides" information about the cards it will eventually turn into. The card is so powerful that the benefits almost always outweigh these costs assuming the requisite shuffle effects. But it is important to remember that these costs still exist. Brainstorm is not free, Black Lotus is not free, no card in magic is free. Every card has the opportunity cost of not being some other card.
This becomes relevant in a pod deck because you need to have:
A) Whatever pod targets you think are important for how the game will be likely to play out.
B) A minimum threshold of creatures around so that when you get a pod into play, you will have something to do with it.

Add to this the relative importance of having some miscellaneous answers that no creature provides (Decay and Deed), a good number of lands, a late game inevitability engine (Recurring Nightmare), disruption and built-in sac outlet (Cabal Therapy) and the aformentioned creatures and the space becomes pretty tight. If you cut one of those other cards completely, then you can brainstorm to your hearts content when the time comes, and it will not help you because the card you are looking for will not be in the deck (because you cut it for the 4th brainstorm). You could go above sixty, but this affects the mana ratio and again, I'm not sure it would actually help more than it hurts, if, on the critical turn (which could be as early as turn 2 or 3), you dig with brainstorm only to find more brainstorms. Normally decks have no problem finding room because they have a very focused gameplan and there are only a certain number of cards that accomplish it. In fact, they usually have to strain and play some number of cards they'd rather not. You can see, I hope, how this situation is exactly the opposite for a Pod deck - People have to resist the urge to add creatures that aren't strictly necessary and keep it economical. The impulse to reach UB on turn 2-3-4 is a great one, but we have to keep in mind that there are already veteran explorers, deathrites, a GSZ, and fetchlands to help with that. You might say, more ways couldn't hurt, but it clearly could hurt if those ways replace cards that are important for later on. One more example I could provide is legacy merfolk, which does not play brainstorm (plus fetchlands) even though it easily could. It has a good reason for this, though it is not the same reason as the pod deck. It's just an example to show that there can be a reason not to play 4 of the best card in legacy.

All that said, I can see 4 brainstorm being correct in this deck. I'm just not sure that it is, and I think it's an empirical question based on how the deck plays out with 3 vs. 4, and not an immutable law of nature like you seem to think.

What I meant about Force of Will was simply this: Once you have the requisite blue count for Force of Will, whatever you determine that to be, you don't need to start adding cards "just because they are blue." Brainstorm is blue, but the requisite blue count has been achieved (in my opinion) without a 4th. Therefore you don't have to add a 4th for that reason.
Also, while having the mana to cast Force of Will later on is a secondary benefit, I don't think it is a "moot point." If you have 2 FOWs and another blue card, being able to hardcast one and alternate cast the other is quite relevant, as you now have two counters instead of one. This comes up a decent amount.

As for the actual decklist:
I strongly recommend against cutting the 4th Baleful Strix for Coiling Oracle. If anything I'd play Wall of Blossoms because it blocks better, but really I would just stick with Strix as it is superior in every way except being tutorable (with only 1 GSZ I do not think this is very relevant). Hell you can even GSZ for Scavenging Ooze and pod it away if it comes to that. Though usually when you GSZ for Ooze, it just wins the game on the spot.
Because of Baleful Strix I'd think twice about Viridian Shaman. The trigger is not optional. I expected to hate Slime because of how much it costs, but in practice it was fine. You still have Decay, Therapy, and Deed to deal with early problems.
Decay vs. Deed: From playing the deck I've found deed to be absolutely amazing. Decay has been just ok. Deed has gotten me out of situations no other card could and completely swung games around, Abrupt Decay could have been many other cards and still worked fine (sometimes better). The deck works pretty well with Deed overall despite what people have said: We have tons of lands, creatures that cost a lot of mana that won't get Deeded away, and creatures that persist after activating. It might not be as good as in a BUG landstill deck with Jace as the only permanent, but it's still very good. I'd stick with 2 Deed main and 1 SB.
Sower is basically a better Bone Shredder and was awesome for me, I'd recommend keeping that card. As for running out of 3s, it seems possible, but hasn't been an issue for me in 20 rounds so far with the deck. Even if it had been, I think you are better off risking it than playing a suboptimal card at 3.
I still think a surgical or two in the board would be pretty good.

I should mention in case it wasn't apparent that when boarding in the FOW and anti-combo package, a lot of the pod package and creatures come out. The gameplan is vastly different, though I do like to leave in a few pods so I can climb the chain up to Glen Elendra, at which point things should be pretty well locked up.

[UseLess]

It's been a while since I posted here. Mainly I kept working on my BUGfit list that is nowadays my main deck. I've put up some decent results with the deck, going top 4/8 and winning a few local tournaments in a row. However, there are a few slots I would like some input on from you guys. So here's the list:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Open slot (Notion Thief/True-Name Nemesis)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Negate
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Far/Away

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground sea
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Innocent blood
2 Hydroblast
2 Extirpate
2 Open slots

So a short explanation of some choices. I play a very controllish type of BUGfit, basically keeping the board of the opponent clear up to a point where I can put a finisher in play. I used to play only sigarda and huntmaster, along with 2 notion thiefs but those proved to be not good enough. I've put back in a Thrun which I didn't like in previous builds, but here he is pretty good with providing a decent clock that is answered by only very few cards. This leaves me with a single notion thief that is rather underwhelming in testing. With the new True-Name Nemesis I'm thinking of using this card, which also meets the requirements for a hard-to-kill finisher. The thing is that I want my blue count to be reasonable due to the FoWs in the SB and therefore preferably have a blue creature. As I'm writing this I figure that a second thrun or second consecrated sphinx might also be an option for the creature slot. Apart from the two creature slots the main is pretty much perfect for me. The best would be some UG creature that keeps the blue count and is GSZable, but unfortunately proper ones have still to be printed...

I've also tested: Eternal Witness, Thragtusk, Wolfir Silverheart, all of which didn't make the cut as they simply can't finish the game, which is what I want when resolving a GSZ. Kodama of the North Tree is under consideration, but I think Thrun is just better. I know many of you value Thragtusk very highly, but I have never been able to fit him within my style of playing and I don't really like the card. Huntmaster provides a bit of life, an additional blocker right away and can function as removel. It is just so much more versatile that I prefer it over Thragtusk. Sigarda is simply the best creature one can GSZ. It sucks to have in an opener or draw it, but BS and Jace can take care of that.

What I'm also tinkering about is the SB. I have two open slots now -used to be a daze and surgical extraction- but due to the lack of graveyard decks the surgical was never used and I mostly sided in 3 Dazes, so I cut the forth. A friend of mine plays a very die-hard control BUG deck with a lot of counters, Jace, Lily, Standstill, pernicious deed etc. I have a lot of trouble winning from that and would like to have some extra SB cards for such control decks. A second Thrun might be an option here. I'm pretty confident against aggro and combo decks. Only merfolk with their Island walk is troubling. You really need deed to win this.
About the FoWs, which I just noticed a discussion has started about: I really like them. Against combo they are simply good, against more controlish decks they give me a back up when going all in for GSZ. My blue count MD is now 14, excluding the open slot. Usually I take out Abrupt Decays and such for FoWs, so with +4 FoW, -1 blue card I would get to 17 which has been doable so far. However, a blue card in the open MB slot would be nice. I can also easily hard cast it in a later stage of the game, so using it is hardly a problem. Looking forward to your input!

[lavafrogg]

The qwerrios brainstorm post should be saved as a part of historical source definitions. Along with other great theorems such as "why is my life gain deck bad" and "why should I stick this fork in the light socket". All of which should be manditory reading for aspiring magic slingers.

[Arianrhod]

Lost a vry very close set to esper in round one. Stalled with a top g1, wrecked g2, died to a jace in turns with five mou tains in play and two valakuts....vet on top of my deck. Haven't used games yet, carpet got pierced, no other changes entered in. Mana felt fine....four fetches werr nice game one but still didn't get me there.

400isuh people here. Lots of miracles and blade, some delver and combo.

[Arianrhod]

1-1. Beat red mud.....somehow

[Tao]

Go Arian! Beating MUD is tough.

First of all please note that I don't say 4 Brainstorm is wrong and I would probably run 4. Remember that it was I who convinced Caleb to run 4 Brainstorm in the first place. That said most Pod lists are very tight on deck space. 21-22 lands, 4 Therapy, 22-24 creatures, 3-4 Pods are already ~52 fix slots that you can't touch. So for the last 8-9 cards, I can certainly see good reasons to not run 4 Brainstorm if you want something like additional discard, removal, GSZ or a Recurring Nightmare.

For BUG lists in general, I am still unconvinced that Pod with all its deck building restrictions is better than just playing Jace as your engine.

[Tao]

It's been a while since I posted here. Mainly I kept working on my BUGfit list that is nowadays my main deck. I've put up some decent results with the deck, going top 4/8 and winning a few local tournaments in a row. However, there are a few slots I would like some input on from you guys. So here's the list:

Huntmaster is good but he alone is not worth splashing a 4th color. He is literally the only red card in your list. Cutting him and the mountain for a better land and an alternative beater seems like a good idea.

[Qweerios]

@GtF,

I agree with you that I come across, and am, arrogant at times. Unlike popular belief, I believe there is such a thing as a wrong choice, wrong morals, and wrong notions when faced with evidence. You can't know how much someone else knows for certain about a particular subject so you have to assume and suggest more often than you'd like. I guess that's where I fall short in my explanations.

I can see where you understood that I was against Brainstorm when I was talking about Junk vs. BUG. I must have changed perspective from a Junk standpoint to a BUG standpoint somewhere with a poor transition.

I understand Merfolk and why it doesn't play Brainstorm and Fetches. I also know that Merfolk is not comparable to BUG Pod, and is in fact not even in the same category. Merfolk is highly specialized and highly un-flexible. Its success depends on the dominance of Island-based decks in the format. The problem with Merfolk and Brainstorm/fetches, is that once you start including them, the deck becomes more consistent, and consistency means very little to a one-trick pony if it opens you to vulnerabilities that you otherwise don't have (Stifle on fetches and the loss of tempo of taping U).

But think about this for a moment. Why wasn't Brainstorm your 61st card? Let me mention how I think this deck is far from being as space-restricted as people mention it to be, and that playing 61 cards in a deck is a lack of discipline in almost every realistic scenarios. It is quite clear that the 61st card in a deck is wrong for consistency reasons alone. However, if you look at the statistical numbers of a 61st card and a 4th Brainstorm (which I don't feel like digging up right now, but have seen in the past), it is very clear how the 4th Brainstorm augments your consistency above and beyond the loss incurred by the 61st card. If we can agree on that, I am fairly certain that, given the right amount of reflection, you will come to my understanding that brainstorm is almost always a 0 or 4 question, and that BUG Pod is not a fit subject for the exception in-between.

EDIT: I'd like to point out how I don't perceive our conversations as of late as bickering although it may appear hostile to some. I find it refreshing to have a meaningful discussion for a change even if it's about something so rudimentary. I respect thoughtful ideas and criticism much more than feelings and the regular sessions of Show and Tell that we see so frequently.

[Arianrhod]

Beat ur landstill and jund. 3-1

[Arianrhod]

4-1. Beat a bye. Aka rug

[guelahpapyrus]

@UseLess:

Have you tried Venser? I thought he was great in my BUG list, which was closer to yours than anyone else. He controls the stack and the board, exactly what U Nic Fit wants.

[Arianrhod]

5-1. Beat grixis delver in a nailbiter. Wouldnt have won g2 without carpet of flowers.

[Arianrhod]

Beat chas hinkle with sneak and show. Double games game 1. Now 6-1.

[jbone2016]

Beat chas hinkle with sneak and show. Double games game 1. Now 6-1.

Sweet. Keep it up!

[Arianrhod]

Lost to shardless after six visions in to games....still ran him out of cards in g2, but ue had JUST enough to stop me. Should still be so lidly top 32/16 with a win or 64 with a loss.

[Arianrhod]

Ended up drawing into top 32 in the last round. Wouldve been vs dredge and probably would have lost....especially without the reanimate. Whatever. $100 and a goyf mat is perfectly acce ptable

[DireLemming]

I've been messing around with combo finishes that can be done as a single Pod chain. In part due to general Timmy-ness but also as it changes the dynamics of some of the more problematic matchups (12 post, Miracles) and last but not least as Pod lists have a tendency to durdle to the point of going to time against slow opponents. Right now this is just an exploration of options available, comments and ideas very much appreciated.

1. Spiked Feeder + Archangel of Thune (+ Entomber Exarch/Mistmoon Griffin for single chain)
pros:
* Both Feeder and angel have synergy with persist creatures
* Angel puts the game away pretty fast on its own
* Part of the combo is zenithable
* In a Pod deck Exarch does a decent Witness impersonation and discard is relevant against most decks you want to combo off.
cons:
* while infinite life usually suffices, the kill itself uses the combat phase

2. Rector + Recurring Nightmare + Yosei (+ Corpse Connoisseur)
pros:
* in a pinch Yosei can timewalk the opponent
* provided you already play Rector + Nightmare, it's the smallest package
* least susceptible to removal
* shortest chain
* Corpse Connoisseur + Recurring Nightmare is an obscene combo in it's own right
cons:
* reliant on the graveyard
* does not outright kill
* Yosei targets

3. Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch + Kiki-Jiki (+ Entomber Exarch)
cons:
* Kiki has an awkward mana cost and is only borderline useful outside combo.
* uses the combat phase

Kiki-Jiki is clearly out, while between the other two it's not so clear. Not sure I would want either main, but it seems a decent semi-transformational SB.

[MrIggins]

Ended up drawing into top 32 in the last round. Wouldve been vs dredge and probably would have lost....especially without the reanimate. Whatever. $100 and a goyf mat is perfectly acce ptable

Congratulations, sucks to have such a good run cut short by a good matchup getting lucky, but as you say, top 32 is more than fine. Nice job!

[pfiremc13]

Thoughts on thune fit:

-Melira is bad, I should've known that already but whatever
-Going down to 1 spike feeder is a good idea, especially in my build with 3 green sun's. However, I want to stick with 2 archangels since you can't gsz into them.
-We should run 1 wall of blossoms. It's nice to have something other than sylvan ranger at 2 to pod out of, and wall blocks really well on top of that.

[dannemann]

Ended up drawing into top 32 in the last round. Wouldve been vs dredge and probably would have lost....especially without the reanimate. Whatever. $100 and a goyf mat is perfectly acceptable
Congrats on the great finish. Hoping for a report if you have time to spare and/or notes to share


I feel like we're the only ones still talking about this build anymore. But that's fine because the Pod decks are sweet too.
Please keep talking. I just started playing the deck, and all input is appriciated.



I played a BoM Trial a few weeks back with ScapeFit, had a blast, and ended 3rd after the 5 round swiss. Was 4-0 before the last round, but lost to OmniTell. I didn’t play the top 8 as i wasn’t going to BoM. I played Arianrhod’s list with minor changes (played ‘Two Towers’) and Thoughtseizes in the flex slot.

Random thoughts and plays:
Played vs. Death and Taxes: Cataclysm is a beating, and Aven Mindsencor is rough.
Played vs. WB Deadguy Ale: 11 Mountains was JUST enough,. At one point he was at 18, with counters on a Jitte. I played ScapeWish with 7 land, hoping he would miss the lifegain. He did, but played a StP on a Batterskull-equipped Spirit. I then used Scapeshift to get 4 mountains (had Valakut and 2 mountains left) for value to 4-for-1 him, and I could then kill him later with Scapeshift for 24. (He wasted 1 Taiga)
Played vs. UWR Standstill and Elves: Deed and Huntmaster are awesome
Played vs. OmniTell: 1st Slaughter Games should always name Cunning Wish, as they often have no other win-con before board. I took Enter the Infinite, and lost.

Also played a small tournament.
I didn’t like the Thoughtseizes main, so I tried Scavenging Ooze and Acidic Slime
I ended up 3-2. Ooze was irrelevant, and Slime okay, but most often didn’t matter

Won vs. UG Infect. Game 1 he had no creatures, and I had Wish for Pyroclasm with Deed backup game 2.
Lost vs. EsperBlade. It was a really weird, long game 1, that ended with me topping for 5 turn, seeing only land with no way to shuffle. Game 2 had angry mountains. Game 3 he had a turn 4 Jace after i therapied one already. I didn’t got to do much else, and lost after time was called.
Lost vs. merfolk, playing 4 Stifle and 2 Jitte main. Game 1 I died to Mutavaults and equipment. Game 2 my Deeds did nothing, and the game was quick and brutal as I drew no creatures.
Won vs. UR Delver/Burn. He didn’t have the nut draw games 1 and 3.
Won vs. UB Tezzeret. Chalice for 1 and 4, and Ensnaring Bridge slowed me down. But PrimeTime for Two Towers, and then Valakut+mountains won game 1, and Scapeshift after 2x Slaughter games won game 2

Final notes:
I am for sure trying Slaughter Games over Thoughtseize main in the future.
Never missed Tragtusk number 2. I played 1 Deathrite Shaman over it, and like it a lot in almost all matches.
I need to get a hold of Toxic Deluge. And test From the Ashes.
Rakdos’s Return will be leaving my list, as it always feel like win more.
Reanimate will NOT leave my list, as it feels solid in multiple matchups.
I also need Carpet of Flowers.

I am so far 11-4 total with the deck, and still feel like I can do better.
I’ll get to play 5 rounds again this week, so looking forward to blowing up people with mountains

[MrIggins]

Congrats on the great finish. Hoping for a report if you have time to spare and/or notes to share


Please keep talking. I just started playing the deck, and all input is appriciated.

:)


Random thoughts and plays:
Played vs. Death and Taxes: Cataclysm is a beating, and Aven Mindsencor is rough.
Played vs. WB Deadguy Ale: 11 Mountains was JUST enough,. At one point he was at 18, with counters on a Jitte. I played ScapeWish with 7 land, hoping he would miss the lifegain. He did, but played a StP on a Batterskull-equipped Spirit. I then used Scapeshift to get 4 mountains (had Valakut and 2 mountains left) for value to 4-for-1 him, and I could then kill him later with Scapeshift for 24. (He wasted 1 Taiga)
Played vs. UWR Standstill and Elves: Deed and Huntmaster are awesome
Played vs. OmniTell: 1st Slaughter Games should always name Cunning Wish, as they often have no other win-con before board. I took Enter the Infinite, and lost.

Agreed on all of those, though Cataclysm IS beatable- obviously it's tough, but it's happened. Mirran Crusader is much more threatening if you ask me. Blind Therapies usually name Revoker for me, but once they have 3 mana or I want to go for a kill, I always try to Therapy for a Mindcensor first. Either they're smart and they cast the spell with Therapy on the stack, at which point we have Deed, Pyroclasm, or Deluge to kill it, or they don't yet know what we're on and we get it.
I've felt squeezed on Mountains before against D&T, particularly because that is the deck that I find myself Scapeshifting to wrath them the most often. Batterskull is hard to beat sometimes.
Against Omni; would your opponent have been able to kill you if you had taken his Omnisciences? I think in the dark against them, that is the better kill. Even if you take their Wishes, they can cast Emrakul and kill you that way; taking Omni forces them to kill you by Showing in an Emrakul, which we can answer by Wishing for Innocent Blood/Deluge- unless they're on the Laboratory Maniac kill, but most are not. I think in general taking Omni is safer unless you learn that they are on the Lab Man kill, at which point I'd switch to Enter the Infinite.



Final notes:
I am for sure trying Slaughter Games over Thoughtseize main in the future.
Never missed Tragtusk number 2. I played 1 Deathrite Shaman over it, and like it a lot in almost all matches.
I need to get a hold of Toxic Deluge. And test From the Ashes.
Rakdos’s Return will be leaving my list, as it always feel like win more.
Reanimate will NOT leave my list, as it feels solid in multiple matchups.
I also need Carpet of Flowers.

I am so far 11-4 total with the deck, and still feel like I can do better.
I’ll get to play 5 rounds again this week, so looking forward to blowing up people with mountains

I don't hate the 1-of Deathrite, in fact I really liked it as a 2-of when i was playing BG Fit, but I've often been glad to have the 2nd Thragtusk. Keep an eye on the number of times you needed it. Your mileage may vary, of course.

In minimal testing, I'm definitely convinced about maindeck Slaughter Games. I've been mulling over playing an additional copy in my sideboard, because it's such a powerful card that I might try going up to 2 SB 2 main to go up to a virtual 7 copies in sideboarded games- but the 3rd Carpet might just be better. This would be over my second copy of Pyroclasm, since Toxic Deluge allows us to always have access to 2 board wipes against creature decks.

Seeing so much Death and Taxes being successful in tournaments recently makes me think. It's a favorable matchup, I think, but it's pretty tight. The games are often close, and are always a grind. I wonder if anyone has insights about the matchup, since I find myself feeling behind pretty often against them, and games are always pretty difficult.

[UseLess]

Huntmaster is good but he alone is not worth splashing a 4th color. He is literally the only red card in your list. Cutting him and the mountain for a better land and an alternative beater seems like a good idea.

So far he has definitely proven it's worth and since he is at least splashable with Veterans, I decided to throw in 1 mountain. Hasn't really hurt the deck so far. On the other hand, if there is any beater more efficient than Huntmaster I will gladly replace it. The problem is that I can't think of any. The problem with Thragtusk is that he competes with GSZ X=5, which is Always won by Sigarda. Huntmaster's CMC of 4 has just an alternative use.


@UseLess:
Have you tried Venser? I thought he was great in my BUG list, which was closer to yours than anyone else. He controls the stack and the board, exactly what U Nic Fit wants.

Never tried him. While I like the idea of the card, I doubt it will win any of my games once he hits play. The 2/2 body is simply underwhelming compared to other options and I'm really looking for more finishers, as the control aspect of the deck runs very smooth.

What are people's thoughts on a second Consecrated Sphinx? It is an absolute beast and having it in play for 1 or 2 turns basically wins the game. Furthermore it is hard to remove with the majority of removal that is played in legacy. On the downside, it is slow and I wouldn't want it vs RUG or so.

Finally a question about [CARD]Golgari Charm[/CARDS]. I see this card is being used in some SBs and also the Rock uses it. What are the matchups it is boarded in against? Goblins, combo (Empty the Warrens?) and elves or so? And are the alternative modes besides -1/-1 ever used? I like the card, but I'm unsure how to use it.

[Ralf]

So far he has definitely proven it's worth and since he is at least splashable with Veterans, I decided to throw in 1 mountain. Hasn't really hurt the deck so far. On the other hand, if there is any beater more efficient than Huntmaster I will gladly replace it. The problem is that I can't think of any. The problem with Thragtusk is that he competes with GSZ X=5, which is Always won by Sigarda. Huntmaster's CMC of 4 has just an alternative use.

Never tried him. While I like the idea of the card, I doubt it will win any of my games once he hits play. The 2/2 body is simply underwhelming compared to other options and I'm really looking for more finishers, as the control aspect of the deck runs very smooth.

What are people's thoughts on a second Consecrated Sphinx? It is an absolute beast and having it in play for 1 or 2 turns basically wins the game. Furthermore it is hard to remove with the majority of removal that is played in legacy. On the downside, it is slow and I wouldn't want it vs RUG or so.

Finally a question about [CARD]Golgari Charm[/CARDS]. I see this card is being used in some SBs and also the Rock uses it. What are the matchups it is boarded in against? Goblins, combo (Empty the Warrens?) and elves or so? And are the alternative modes besides -1/-1 ever used? I like the card, but I'm unsure how to use it.

Golgari is nice against tribal & D&T & Mav.
It is also a potential out to omni (destroy enchantment).
And I used it once against a supreme verdict to save my dudes !!!

Well a good catch-all.

[Arianrhod]

I played exactly the list that I posted a page back before the event. I'll copypasta it forward in the interests of expediency for readers.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Here's an expanded report, by round. I don't have my notes with me, so I don't have names, Therapy calls / hands, and such. I don't think these things are really necessary, but I'll try to do better for DC.

R1: Esperblade

My opponent is a stocky fellow with gauges in his ears, who is from southern New Jersey. This tells me that he's playing one of the following decks: Esperblade, Sneak and Show, or Elves. Esperblade was mostly a geographical read because of southern New Jersey, which has a number of players who are very fond of Esperblade and have played it to some success.

He leads with Esperish cards. I do my thing, and we both ramp up. I land a pair of Thragtusks, both of which get hit by Swords and have their beast tokens bounced by Jace. He eventually beats me down with equipment and Clique. I had a Top going for pretty much the whole game (25+ minutes), and kept running into like, Land/Land/Explorer, or Top/Land/Wood Elves on my Tops. Couldn't find Deeds, Zeniths, Wishes, or Scapeshifts to save my life (literally).

Game two is uneventful -- he does some irrelevant things, and angry mountains make quick work of him. He has a Jace at one point, but I Zenith for Witness to regrow REB to kill it.

We start game three with somewhere around 7:30 left on the clock. We're both playing pretty quickly, which leads me to make a few subtle misplays early on in the match. I jammed a Carpet of Flowers way earlier than I had to, out of fear of discard, and it got Pierced. This meant that his future Pierces and SnapPierces were able to actually tempo me instead of me ramping past them, which meant that his turn 4 Jace was able to be protected until it was too late. He started +2ing immediately as Jace landed, and I never hit a way to deal with it.

-3 Explorer, -1 Cabal Therapy, -2 Slaughter Games, +3 Carpet of Flowers, +2 REB, +1 Rakdos's Return

I think that was how I boarded. My board plans are from memory, and might not be exactly what I actually did.

Games comes out because Esperblade isn't a 4x Jace.dec (or, frequently, even 3-of). It's the card that we most struggle with (especially if they can protect it). Slaughtering Batterskull is worse than just Therapying it. You could theoretically name Force of Will, just so that your Scapeshifts are guaranteed kills, but I don't think that that's worth it, and would rather have any of the other cards I boarded in.

R2: Red MUD

He twitches slightly while shuffling and I see what I think is a Stoneforge Mystic. I'm still not sure what I actually saw. I keep a ramp-heavy hand with Top, double Tribe-Elder, and a Wish, while he mulls to 6. While mulling to 6 he flips a City of Traitors out of his deck, and I get concerned and confused. I adjust my mental goals in the matchup to rushing to combo as quickly as possible instead of playing a slow game with a bunch of shuffles and Top activations.

He leads off City of Traitors -> Grim Monolith -> go.

......oh.

I go basic -> Top, and pass back. He uses his City to play a second Monolith and taps both for a Wurmcoil.

Welp.

I spin Top on upkeep, looking for an Explorer, and find one successfully. I could have played a Tribe-Elder here instead and started walling off the Wurmcoil, but I decided that I needed more of a shot in the arm mana-wise if I was going to actually race that Wurmcoil, and that an Explorer was my out for winning the game. Additionally, I still had the Burning Wish in hand, and could get Innocent Blood if it became a problem later. Not ideal, but it was a hazy plan. Anyway, I play my Explorer and pass back. He crunches in, I get some lands, and he goes to 26. From here I wall his Wurmcoil for two turns with Tribe-Elders while ramping up, and shift him out on turn 5, with him having never gained another point of life. All he did other than drop a Wurmcoil was play a Crucible, but he didn't have anything to go with it of consequence.

Game two I die in some fashion. I don't remember the exact details, but I think that it was a very staxish draw from him while I had a couple of nonbasics and a Top. Pretty sure he Wasted me out and my Top showed no lands, while he had a Lodestone.

Game three I led off with a blind Therapy on Grim Monolith, and hit one -- in the process completely ruining his hand. He had a Blood Moon and some other nastiness in hand, but I had a pair of Pernicious Deeds, Therapy/Explorer to rip his hand to shreds, and some other general douchebaggery. I Shifted for the kill on something like turn 6.

R3: U/R Landstill

I know my opponent since he's from a neighboring playgroup, and I know from when we were all hanging out before the event what he's playing.

Game one he chains together 3 standstills, and double Force of Wills a pair of Burning Wishes which I shamelessly ran into his wall of countermagic because I had a 3rd in hand. He plays some irrelevant cards and dies to Scapeshift. I Slaughter naming Jace, and hit one in his hand....which ends up being the only copy in the deck. Awkward. Useful, I guess, but awkward.

Game two is basically the same. I ignore his mana denial and casually kill him. No idea how I sided here....I want to say the same as vs Esperblade, but not sure.

R4: Jund (Not Punishing)

My opponent is a Vintage player who doesn't play a lot of legacy. I figure he's going to be on something like RUG or Jund...some fair.dec Deck to Beat. I'm right.

I don't remember these games much, other than that there was a bunch of discard game 1, then I wrathed him with Deed, then I killed him with mountains. Game two I know he had a turn 2 Liliana, which was like...urk. But, I derped and didn't board out my Slaughter Games for some reason, and after drawing both of them they got immediately discarded to Liliana, over more valuable cards in my hand. So.....I guess they were still good? Lol? I eventually Pulsed away the Liliana via Wish, nuked his board, then nuked him.

I boarded out 1 Therapy for the Rakdos's Return, otherwise, no changes.

R5: RUG Delver

My opponent has a PTQ top8 pin on his playmat from 2008. I immediately put him on RUG or UWR Delver. He leads fetch -> Trop -> Mongoose. I love playing a Cabal Therapy deck -- it makes you pay attention to shit like that, and can be very rewarding.

These games go about as we all know how they go. It was even worse for this guy than usual, too, because Carpets came in after board. I will note that I boarded out 1 Explorer here, leaving me with 3 Explorers and 3 Carpets postboard, which seems like enough. I also brought in the REBs in exchange for the Slaughter Games. Pretty sure 2 Therapies came out for the other 2 Carpets.

R6: Grixis Delver

My opponent complains of being tired and asks me to beat him quickly as we sit down. I just laugh and say that I'll see what I can do. Inwardly, I put him on something like Miracles, or some other slow blue deck.

He leads off with I think Tarn for Sea, which immediately sends off warning bells of combo. He passes the turn, and I do something that gets Dazed...I think it was an Explorer. Okay, not Storm, then. We play slow for a couple turns. He drops a Volc after replaying his Sea, and plays a Bob. Mystery solved. He eventually gets a flipped Delver, and has just enough gas thanks to the Bob to keep me locked out. I see a Stifle via Therapy at one point in game 1, so I know to expect that in the future.

He keeps a slow hand game two, and pays for it heavily as I ramp past his disruption and drop a pair of Huntmasters, who completely take over the game by themselves.

Game three is the nailbiter. He comes out FUCKING FAST with double Young Pyromancer and a bunch of cheap spells. I kept a hand without much ramp (my Carpet got Forced), but double Deed. I have a Tribe-Elder and a Top in play against his army. I drop to 2 life on a mighty swing, blocking a Young and cracking Tribe-Elder, which resolves. I then declare yolo, and slam Deed and crack for 2, with a fetch in play to play around Daze (although that would put me to 1). He doesn't have it, and his board dies. We each draw a few blanks. I try to Zenith up a Huntmaster to get some life back, but he Forces. He drops a Bob, I use my other Deed to kill it. He drops a Delver, but I REB it. I Top into another REB and stick it in my hand, then use a Wood Elves to shuffle. My Top shows me a Huntmaster on top of my deck, but I need to survive another draw step. He draws, pauses. Taps Volcanic Island. My heart skips a beat. He lays down Brainstorm. My heart beats once, then skips three more. He puts two back, and passes the turn. I'm alive.

From here, I turn it completely around. A second Huntmaster joins the first in rapid order, and a couple turns later I shift for lethal with REB backup. He had 3 Lightning Bolts and 2 Forked Bolts as outs, with 2-3 Brainstorms left at that point to dig into them, and an unknown number of Ponders. I dodged a fucking bullet.

R7: Chas Hinkle with Sneak and Show

Now, if you've been a part of this thread for a while, you'll remember that Chas ended my run at SCG Baltimore -- after I won game one via a pair of Burning Wished Slaughter Games, and knocked me out of being X-1, and out of contention for top 8. As of Round 7 at Champs, I was X-1 once again. To continue forward, I would have to defeat him. Of course, this time, I had maindeck Slaughter Games.

I kept a hand with one of those maindeck Slaughter Games. I go land, Top, pass. He leads off with a G-Probe, and sees my tech. No comments were made -- Chas is a master of the poker face while playing. He cantrips and ships back. I spin Top on upkeep, looking for a Therapy. I fail to find one, and play an Explorer before passing back. He doesn't kill me, and passes back. I Top on upkeep. Still no Therapy. Swing, play Explorer #2, pass. He knows that next turn I can play Slaughter Games. He EoT Brainstorms. Frowns. Puts two back, untaps, draws. Brainstorms. Frowns. Puts two back. Brainstorms AGAIN, to get that 1 card deeper (and, in restrospect, I suspect to stack his hand because he knew there was a shuffle effect coming). Passes the turn.

I Slaughter Emrakul. He shows me a grip including 2 Show and Tells and 2 Sneak Attacks, but no creatures. I Top on Upkeep of the following turn, and see my 2nd maindeck Games. I play my 5th land and cast Games #2. He scoops.

Game 2 I keep a sort of shaky mull to 6: Badlands, Mountain, Top, REB, Carpet, Burning Wish. He doesn't have Leyline of Sanctity, I sigh with relief. I lead with Top, since I'm not in immediate danger on turn 0. He plays a Show and Tell on turn 3, which I REB (resolves). I top into a Verdant, play it, crack it, play Carpet, move to 2nd main, add 3 red, play Burning Wish, Wish for Therapy, cast Therapy with R floating. Since he played Show, he obviously has something in hand to put out. I name Griselbrand, and I can't remember if I hit or not. I do know that I saw his hand: 1 Through the Breach, 3 Emrakuls. I look at him with my eyebrows raised. Well then.

I pass back. He doesn't draw a Sol Land. I live for another turn. He passes. I use Carpet mana to help cast a Huntmaster, then flashback the Therapy with the Wolf. He Brainstorms in response. I figure that he's putting back 2 Emrakuls because that makes sense -- we both know that I want to name Emrakul. For a moment I think that he might be next-leveling me and putting back Breach on top since I might name it, opting to let him Brainstorm-lock himself for two turns, but I decide that he's probably aware of that possibility, and decide to go with the safe call, which is Emrakul, because he CAN'T put back all of them, which means that I can force a shuffle for his Brainstorm, and if he was trying to out-mindgame me, I actually out-out-mindgame him.

Turns out he went with the simple "fix my hand" line, and put back two Emrakuls. I bin the 3rd, and he shuffles. I see a Force of Will in hand, along with an Ancient Tomb and the Breach, so I'm not out of this yet. He plays Tomb and passes. I Top into Rakdos Return, and cast it for x=3 (aka, his hand). He hardcasts Force, taking two from the Tomb, and I commence Huntmaster beatdown. He passes the turn, leading the Huntmaster to flip. I'm out of disruption at this point, so I opt to ride the Huntmaster to victory. I pop Top on upkeep, so that I draw it for my turn, which gives me a free spell to play. I cast another Top that I drew off of my original Top, swing, pass, flip Huntmaster. He casts Show and Tell on his turn, not putting anything into play (stops the Huntmaster from flipping). I swing with my Huntmaster + wolf, then pass the turn without playing a spell to do the final 2 points of damage on Chas's upkeep. He extends the hand.

For the rest of the day I have people asking me to tell them the story of how I crushed Chas. I'm pretty noncommital about the whole thing, and don't really gloat much outwardly. There's more than enough of that going on inwardly, I don't need to look like an ass to everyone else -- myself will suffice.

BUT GODDAMN IT I GOT REVENGE FOR BALTIMORE.

R8: Shardless BUG

I recognize this guy's dice after he says that we played at SCG Philly last time. He was playing TES. I inwardly grumpycat, and as we cut each others' decks, a judge comes up and says "HEY BTW DECK CHECK." We sit there for 10 minutes and watch Osyp dismantle someone to my right while we wait for our decks. They come back, no problems. We shuffle up and leads Delta -> Sea. I sigh. He taps it, plays Deathrite Shaman.

WOAH NELLY.

He does a bunch of Shardless BUG things. I go beatdown, and put him to (very low) before he stabilizes with a pair of Visions off of suspend/cascade and a Baleful Strix to block my Thrag. I get some solid blind names on Therapy throughout the match, but I never find a Top, and can't keep my card quality up to match his card advantage, as he hits a third Visions. I have a number of turns where a Deed or a Wish/Shift completely wins me the game on the spot, but it never happens.

Game two he suspends 3 Visions in the first 3-4 turns. I make him use every single card in his hand to stop me, but he has just enough non-blanks to get there after 3 Visions, 2-3 Brainstorms, and a couple of Jace activations. He was probably up 15 cards on me this game, and I still almost got there.

I'm pretty tilted about this one, but I try to be as friendly as I can. I'd gotten paired down, as he was X-1-1, and as such was unlikely to Top 8, whereas if I'd won I would have been playing for Top 8 (all of the X-1s had to play...only the X-0s could ID). He finished in 10th. I can't be mad about his desire to finish as high as he could, since he thought he could possibly make top 8 on breakers if he won out -- I would have felt the same way in his shoes, but that didn't change that I had a better shot. Pretty disappointing to lose a good matchup that late in the day, that close to top 8.

R9: Dredge

After conversing with my friend Joey Manner, who was sitting next to me, my opponent and I agreed to ID to lock up top 64, since our breakers were both pretty bad and even if we played, the winner wasn't guaranteed top 32. We played for fun anyway, and he proceeded to jizz all over his playmat with his deck. This was not an ordinary Dredge player -- he knew every trick in the book, including that Grave-Troll counts itself when it comes into play off of Dread Return. I almost get to Shift him out before he kills me, but he takes my Shift with a Therapy, and I die.

Game two, I could have Burning Wish -> Reanimated his Grave-Troll to deny his dredging.....if I had Reanimate in my board. I'll note that this was the ONLY time all day that I actually missed it. As it was, I didn't have that, and I died pretty quickly to Flamekin and friends after never finding a Tribe-Elder, or, really, doing much of relevance.

When the final standings went up, I was surprised to see myself at 32nd place -- certainly not complaining, though! Got $100 credit, which I used to pick up a foil German Chalice of the Void, a foil Ashen Rider, and a foil Phantasmal Image -- not a bad haul.

-------

Thoughts:

Maindeck Games did exactly what I wanted them to do in the matchup that mattered. They weren't useless the rest of the day, either, although I didn't draw into them that much. Frequently they just got pushed away with Top and shuffled away when I didn't want them.

Toxic Deluge only got cast once on the day, where it proceeded to do what it does. There were a few other times where I wanted to use it, but I ended up drawing something unexpected and just winning instead.

The manabase felt purrrrrrrrrrrfect with the 4 fetches. I only had a few unkeepable hands, and I noticed that my mulligans were down on the day overall. The additional shuffles were always nice, and I always had enough mountains to kill. That being said, there were a few times where I got CLOSE to running out of mountains (I had one or two backups). I never missed Phyrexian Tower.

Carpets were fantastic, as usual.

Rakdos's Return was still weak, and will likely be getting replaced. I think that for that card to actually have impact, it needs to be a 2-of (to be boarded in), and the meta just isn't right for that card to be a 2-of at the moment.

More thoughts in the coming days as I get ready for GP DC. I'm gonna go rest my fingers for a while, lol.

[Arianrhod]

PS I sucked in vintage, but I at least had a ton of fun and can cross off "play in a sanctioned vintage tournament" off of my life goals, lol.

[Star|Scream]

Congrats on the finish, Kevin!

[MrIggins]

Thanks for the great report- glad to hear you didn't feel like 11 mountains was too few, I have to say I love the idea of 4 fetches.

What do you think you'll be playing in the board over the Rakdos' Return? Going back to Reanimate, From the Ashes, maybe even the 4th Slaughter Games? That's the spot I'm stuck on currently. I like 3 Carpets a lot, and having access to Deluge is making me want my multiple Pyroclasms less, since in any given game we ALWAYS have access to 2 sweepers. I'm currently on the second Clasm over your Rakdos' Return slot, but I don't feel as solidly about it as I have in the past. And I'll be testing the fetch over Tower since you were so pleased with it.

[vilnico]

Congrats Arian on the top32 !
Did you see a lot of True Name Nemesis during the tournament ? There seemed to be a lot at Bazaar of Moxen.

Btw, couldn't make it to Bazaar of Moxen in the end. Happy event in the family exiled BoM from the stack.

Quickly @ Qweerios:
Just stating Brainstorm must be 4 or 0, is the same as stating a Legacy deck must be 60 and never 61.
I could also say that seeing you mentioning playing 61 card makes my eyes bleed (actually it does not, I don't really care personally). Does that make my argument any better ? not really.
You saying that playing 3 Brainstorm makes strange things to your body does not make it any better. In my opinion it makes your argument only weaker, at least very less audible.
And mostly it is contradictory with you asking to be "serious":


@Evertbody reading this,

A good trick to anyone hitting the "Submit Reply" button is to try and think of counterarguments to what you are advancing. Be critical of what you assert and we might end up with better conclusions to successfully optimize our decks. Maybe I am alone in this enterprise but I don't believe that a good discussion revolves around you showing me what is dear to you, me showing you what is dear to me, and leaving it to that because we cannot inquire on our preferences any further. For the sake of development, let's use reason to support our choices and all will be clearer.

Both are "obvious", although there are corner cases where it is valid to not respect those basic statement. I did play 61 cards in Nic Fit in the past, and I understand why we could play only 3 Brainstorm on GtF list as Tao explained it.
That said, playing the 4th Brainstorm on the 61th slot is interesting, but it could make someone else upset.
He would argue to cut something in the 60th rather than getting a brain-cancer playing 61th. Because any argument about the 61th loss being compensated by the gain in consistency brought by Brainstorm does not change the fact that it is one card too much. Playing 4th Brainstorm in a 60 deck card being the holy standard.
So you argue that we can break one, and not the other ? Sorry, but why ?

Anyway we are in the Nic Fit thread right ? Aren't we here to think out of the box (the reason that makes you loving and hating it) ?
If that is so, then I hope you can understand people here playing only 3 brainstorms in a 60 cards deck, and that you will stop your body from secreting unhealthy things.

[Ralf]

So here is my report for the Bazar of Moxen main event.

I played Scapeshift Nic Fit and reach 83rd place (695 players).
- 2 fetches MD (+1 bayou +1 mountain)
- 2 Huntmasters MD, the third being replaced by a scavenging ooze.
- 2 slaughter games MD for the flex slots.

The report will be brief. Ask for insights if you want something more detailed !

Round 1: Dredge. Win 2 - 1. Ooze MD was killer in this MU, as I managed to take game 1 thanks to him.

Round 2: Merfolk. Win 2 - 1. Featuring TNN. What a beast... I had to deed x3 times in the last game using witness to get rid of a lethal TNN. Good player using his own submerge on TNN. I scape him in the last additional turn.

Round 3: Reanimator. Lost 1 - 2. Made a bad call on game 3 with a flashbacked therapy, instead of picking Pithing needle (which I saw on the first therapy), I named FOW (He also had one). Then, GSZ for Ooze and had to wait for a BW to get rid of it. Should have done vice-versa, he might not have countered the GSZ with the FOW.

Round 4: UWR control / punishing fire. Win 2 - 1. Very long games. Scape him in the first. Got killed by TNN/Clique in the second. He died to aggro in the last game.

Round 5: Homebrew Esperblade. Win 2 - 0 . Very very long games. Esper playing 1 terminus / 1 entreat, Jace, TNN, SFM, Blood Moon... WTF !!! We went back and forth both games, really really close.

Round 6: ANT. Win 2 - 1. Ooze MVP !!!! and the last one I got lucky, he was a bit "storm short" as I was up to 26 life.

Round 7: BUG Delver + TNN. Lost 0 - 2 . I guess the previous match drained too much of my concentration. I sat and kept poor hands both games while my opponent had everything. Double delver game 1 with counterspells back-up and perfect tempo game 2.

Round 8: OmniShow. Lost 0 - 2. Luckiest opponent ever. Game 1 he had leyline of Sanctity in his starting hand (1-of...) and I could have played Slaughter game by turn 3 if not. Game 2, I slaughtered ETI on turn 3 (after a therapy turn 1 on S&T) and he had drawn S&T + the 1-of Emrakul of his deck. WTF !!! Well I'm out of day 2 :-(

Round 9: Death Proof. Win 2 - 0. Game 1 he died to aggro. Game 2 he died to scapeshift after having sided out his FOW :D

Overall satisfied by my own performance. I usually play kind of punishing version of Nic Fit but decide at the very last moment to give a go to the scapeshift one. Why ?
I wanted a way to win quick as I expected games to be really really slow as this was a major tournament with a lot of players and huge prices for the top 8.
=> 1 match was won thanks to a scape in the additional turn !!!! Priceless.

A bit disappointed as "Combo" was all over the place (pairings I love you :-() 4 matches on 9 !!

[kavaki]

What exactly is "Death Proof"?

[hymntotourcock]

Excellent report Arianrhod, glad to see a non-Pod fitter clean house.

I'm very interested in working From the Ashes into my Punishing Fit. Is this card worth playing without a Wishboard? Is it win-more, or is it Price of Progress level superfuckingawesome? So many of these decks play 0 basics and I wish so badly to prey upon them.

I would obviously have to make room for more basic lands to support this and cut something less vital to fit FtA (maybe 2 copies?). How does this look to you? Can't tell if this card is awesome or unnecessary.

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 From the Ashes

[Qweerios]

@Vinilco,

The Brainstorm argument here is something so fundamental that anybody that doesn't understand it is missing out on a very basic principle of competitive magic. I had legitimate concerns about getting that point across to a community that is dear to me on the source so I had the whole thing read through by a couple of fellow competitive magic players. The conclusion was unanimous, those who don't understand why most decks should begin with 0 or 4 Brainstorm and how any in-between amount is senseless are the ones missing out. I will take their precious advice and stop wasting my time trying to communicate with people speaking a different language, it is too arduous for what comes out of it.

I don't care how my method of argumentation was perceived or where I stumbled in my explanation. I am a truth-seeker and we have been arguing on different grounds towards different goals.

EDIT: If you think that using graphic language or making apparently silly comparisons is a deliberate attempt at discrediting myself, you are deluded. Making shocking statements is meant to induce shock, a state that tends to make people backtrack to known territory. It is an attempt at having the reader go back to his roots and rethink the basics of what makes a deck good, or in this case, consistent.

[Ralf]

What exactly is "Death Proof"?

A tempo deck based on Death shadow which include life points as another ressource.
Basically, the opponent plays a lot of life costing spells (gitax probe, dismember, street wraith) to reach the threshold of 12 HP. From there it plays death shadow and try to race you :)

Very interesting deck.

[Tao]

The conclusion was unanimous, those who don't understand why most decks should begin with 0 or 4 Brainstorm and how any in-between amount is senseless are the ones missing out. I will take their precious advice and stop wasting my time trying to communicate with people speaking a different language, it is too arduous for what comes out of it.


Like you say MOST decks. Pod lists are heavily constricted on deck space. A deck that is forced to play~44 lands and creatures, 4 Cabal Therapies and 3-4 Birthing Pods has only ~8-9 slots left. I can certainly see reasons why Green Sun's Zenith, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare or Inquisition of Kozilek are legitimate contenders for those slots.

[Star|Scream]

Like you say MOST decks. Pod lists are heavily constricted on deck space. A deck that is forced to play~44 lands and creatures, 4 Cabal Therapies and 3-4 Birthing Pods has only ~8-9 slots left. I can certainly see reasons why Green Sun's Zenith, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare or Inquisition of Kozilek are legitimate contenders for those slots.

At that point there's probably a too-cute or win-more creature you can shave for the 4th brainstorm.

Hell, I'd even get rid of the Recurring Nightmare.

I definitely want to see as many brainstorms as possible per game. You don't know if you want to see a recurring nightmare. It might be nice, but it might be useless.

[Tao]

At that point there's probably a too-cute or win-more creature you can shave for the 4th brainstorm.

Hell, I'd even get rid of the Recurring Nightmare.

I definitely want to see as many brainstorms as possible per game. You don't know if you want to see a recurring nightmare. It might be nice, but it might be useless.

It is obviously not about whether a card is always useful or not. The deck plays many situational cards like Deed, Explorer, Therapy or a good number of the Pod targets anyway - which is btw why I had always suggested running 4 Brainstorm.

Having a Recurring Nightmare in the deck seems like a super important card thing in grindy matchups and I don't think stuff like Phantasmal Image, Scavenging Ooze or Archmage are debatable. If you would cut anything for the 4th Brainstorm it would probably be a Decay, a DR Shaman, the GSZ or a Baleful Strix.

[kavaki]

A tempo deck based on Death shadow which include life points as another ressource.
Basically, the opponent plays a lot of life costing spells (gitax probe, dismember, street wraith) to reach the threshold of 12 HP. From there it plays death shadow and try to race you :)

Very interesting deck.

Hmm... that kinda does sound interesting.
I assume its weak to burn or U/R Young Delver.

Is it of any concern to us? I assume that Deed and Decay would make it not something that should scare us.

[Ralf]

Hmm... that kinda does sound interesting.
I assume its weak to burn or U/R Young Delver.

Is it of any concern to us? I assume that Deed and Decay would make it not something that should scare us.

I guess it is a combo predator rather than anything else.
One guy playing it made day 2.
It should be considered as another tempo deck (with delver etc...) without the red splash but a black splash.
Lightning bolt have been dismissed for "reanimate".

If you face this deck, be careful, being at 12 you are in his oneshot kill range (a bit like U/R Young delver)...

And YES this deck is very weak to "burn" in general as the lowest HP you have the bigger you strike with it.
I saw a match where the guy was attacking with 2 death shadow 1/1; his opponent did not dare to block and took 18 damages after 2 dismember were resolved. Pretty scary.

[Tao]

Updated OP with Pod lists. Two SCG Top16s should be enough to warrant that. Currently BUG Pod, Scapewish and Fire are the three most most successful versions of the deck, right?

[hymntotourcock]

I was diddling around with Death's Shadow earlier this year. It's a blowout kinda deck, but it's similar to combo in that it folds pretty easily. Getting a Swords to Plowshares pointed at one Shadow kills all Shadows in play.

[Arianrhod]

I was diddling around with Death's Shadow earlier this year. It's a blowout kinda deck, but it's similar to combo in that it folds pretty easily. Getting a Swords to Plowshares pointed at one Shadow kills all Shadows in play.

That's actually hilarious.

[Piceli89]

Updated OP with Pod lists. Two SCG Top16s should be enough to warrant that. Currently BUG Pod, Scapewish and Fire are the three most most successful versions of the deck, right?

It seems so. For those of you willing to hear the point of view of an external Nic Fit player, I just wrote this- nothing that you already don't know, but it may be nice to read one more time. In this article I review briefly those three variants putting emphasis on their advantages and disadvantages, with Punishing Fit being imo the one that's most well suited for this metagame.

Clicky (http://www.mtgq.it/nic-fit-mille-gusti-uno/)

In italian, use an online translator to get most of the meaning.

EDIT: here's the page already translated:
Clicky_eng (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=it&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtgq.it%2Fnic-fit-mille-gusti-uno%2F)

[kavaki]

After watching my local legacy event (I have a catacombs.... somewhere..... where I dont know, but I need it.), I started thinking about something.

How is our lands match-up(On punishing fit, but other versions as well)? Im thinking about how I would board for it.

[jbone2016]

After watching my local legacy event (I have a catacombs.... somewhere..... where I dont know, but I need it.), I started thinking about something.

How is our lands match-up(On punishing fit, but other versions as well)? Im thinking about how I would board for it.

Ooze is our friend. Since the stage/depths combo, I tend to have more difficult with it (I was running the junk wish version). Extraction effects are key after board. Discard isn't as good. With the scapewish version I have a copy of From the Ashes for this reason.

[pfiremc13]

Could golden wish have a place in white versions? Having access to nether void, humility, batterskull and/or deed pre-sideboarding could be nice, though 5 mana is a lot.

[Megadeus]

Wow that wish is 5 mana? Seems terrible. Burning wish is just better

[Blastoderm]

I agree with 0 or 4 brainstorms. Playing 3 brainstorms is just retarded.

[pfiremc13]

Wow that wish is 5 mana? Seems terrible. Burning wish is just better

5 mana is annoying, but this is a ramp deck. You can't compare it to burning wish because they are different colors and fetch different things. Not recommending golden yet, but it could be a possibility.

[Megadeus]

At least with burning wish though you can actually cast the spell you get the same turn that you get it.

[pfiremc13]

Again, you can't compare it to burning wish.

Obviously, it would only be a 1- or 2-of, giving the deck game against combo before sideboarding.

[Megadeus]

I'm not seeing how a 5 CMC spell that simply tutors, doesn't even cast the spell, is good vs combo.

[Arianrhod]

Top 8'd Mythic's monthly legacy today with Scape. Only change from the Champs list was -1 Rakdos Return in the board for +1 From the Ashes. Report on Monday, as usual.

[pfiremc13]

I'm not seeing how a 5 CMC spell that simply tutors, doesn't even cast the spell, is good vs combo.

It gives you access to things you would not normally have access to preboard. Against combo you need to disrupt them until you can lock them out of the game. However, there is nothing currently in the main board of white version that can lock combo out of the game.

I'm worried about the combo matchup g1, is all.

[conboy31]

Got to play a legacy tournament for the first time in 13 months. Back from the desolate North Dakota. Played 4 rounds with Arianrhods scapeshift version. 3-1-0 for 2nd place. 7-3 for games.
I played damnation in the sb over deluge (don't own it), and instead of rakdos return I played a Thrun.
Round 1: Death and Taxes, was able to win 2-0. I think he had the possibility to win each game if he happened to make every correct choice every turn, though I don't know if they would have been arguably the best lines at each juncture. Lots of wastelands, porting, vialing, sfm equip choices, and combat. Got down as low as 4 vs. a crusader before sticking a huntmaster and then scaping for the win. Luckily he does not have any cataclysm in his sb. He does have a number of mindcensors but never sees one. I eventually scape him to death again in game 2.
Edit- I did not draw a Valukut in either game, and if I had drawn one or both it is likely I would have lost the game with a chance at the match. Also, my g1 lethal scape found every last mountain in the deck to trigger valakut and do lethal.

Round 2: Rug Delver, he keeps a disruption heavy hand but no threat. I stick a vet while he lands tarm. He stifles, I get another vet, some lands and then land a thrag. I draw scape with a top in play and close to lethal, then see a burning 3 down. Next turn I draw burning and put a land on top. Get seize, coast is clear. Tap to draw the land and lethal with scape.
Game 2: He goes delver. Flip, delver, delver. Flip, Flip. I had enough time and life to either play my damnation or deeds. I opted for damnation and he forced. He also had the stifle for my deeds. GG.
Game 3: I survive off an active carpet that gave me 1, then 2 and 3 mana a turn with a deed in play but only 2 lands. Blast a delver and we each sit around for a while. He brainstorm fetches, ponder + shuffle, redraws ponder, etc all looking for threats. Was able to maneuver my resources with the small game while eventually triggering a vet in combat that gave me the momentum to manifest resources for a lethal scapeshift in turn 1 of time. What made this game easy was that he only saw tarms and geese, no 2nd delver. So my vets, elders and woods gave me infinite time and resources. We could have played faster but I had not seen him in over a year.

Round 3: Bant mystic with vial. I play cabal on t2 naming thalia. Miss, he shows me sfm, war monk and geist. He plays sfm and gets batterskull. I draw a 2nd cabal, play a land and gsz for vet then fb and hit batterskull. Then hardcast my second and hit geist. Leisurely kill him with scape before his monk can tug him over 30 life. Game 2 I trigger some green creatures in combat and scape him out on turn 6.

Round 4: BUG cascade. GEEEZ. First time playing vs this deck. So much stuff culminating in card advantage. He sticks a jace and possibly liliana. Cascades and gets goyfs. I deed at some point but his land card in hand was FOW to stop be from doing something relevant with my last card (wish or scape). Game 2 I exile his jaces and hit a bunch of land drops. He has a liliana and 1 3/2 unblockable land. I slowly hemorrhage life and we get hellbent. I manage to get enough red sources to trigger my valakut and kill his liliana, then draw huntmaster, then draw gsz for Prime Time that wins me the race vs. 2 unblockable lands. Game 3 he is going first and sticks an unmolested jace. I extract his tarm, he plays some cascade bears but bricks on his flips. I start getting jaced, then liliana'd. I still have outs, as I have a bunch of lands in play. He epic lily's me, but I STILL have outs with jace at 12 as I am only getting beat by a 2/2 and was at 12 life. I can draw reb or 2 burning wishes for pulse with 32 cards left in my deck. Find an ewitness. Lose.

I sb'd out slaughter games my first 3 matches but did not mind them MD because I won regardless. Thrun was fine vs. the field and I never really wished I had the rakdos return.

Very enjoyable deck, could not believe how fast I could close games out. I am used to the slow versions of the deck that play 2 ewitness and rec nightmare to win eventually. This deck could easily topdeck wins out of no where. It was pretty wild to have a sdt in play, a shuffle effect and know that I have 6 cards in my deck that result in GG.

SB vs Delver: -4 cabal, -2 slaughter, -1 prime time, -1 burning wish: +1 innocent blood, +1 damnation, +3 carpet of flowers, +2 reb, +1 thrun. I liked how this felt post board. Triggering my vet was often tough or impossible, though unless he was hitting me with delver he can't win on the ground without stifles which opens up the 4 fetches and deeds. Prime seems win more and the deck probably only wants to see 1 burning wish (for clasm, pulse, or lethal scape) so that was trimmed.

[Tao]

SB vs Delver: -4 cabal, -2 slaughter, -1 prime time, -1 burning wish: +1 innocent blood, +1 damnation, +3 carpet of flowers, +2 reb, +1 thrun. I liked how this felt post board. Triggering my vet was often tough or impossible, though unless he was hitting me with delver he can't win on the ground without stifles which opens up the 4 fetches and deeds. Prime seems win more and the deck probably only wants to see 1 burning wish (for clasm, pulse, or lethal scape) so that was trimmed.

Don't side out Therapies against RUG. I did that once, too, and it is wrong. They protect you from Stifle. Side out the Huntmasters instead, they are not good against RUG. Siding in all the good Wish targets seems bad, too, because it makes the Wishes bad. With Arian's list I'd side like this against RUG:

- 3 Huntmaster
- 2 Slaughter Games
+ 3 Carpet
+ 2 Red Blast

[conboy31]

I was on the fence about the wish, but will defend my choices a little more. I could be convinced I am wrong. I don't think I want to draw more than 2 wishes. 1.5 is ideal. 1 to clean up rugs threats and maybe 1 to close out the game.
The 2 mana and defer my turn (unless I am getting innocent blood) is a dangerous tempo loss vs. their efficient threats. Because of that I really only want 1 or 2 ways to wish and kill their creatures. Of that, I think damnation in the MD is correct because I probably need to resolve it the turn I would be wishing for it. Additionally, the innocent blood gives me 3 turn 1 answers to delver, and 1 to goose (should I choose to take this route). The leftovers are pyroclasm for unthresh'd geese and delvers, and pulse for multiple delvers and goyfs. Then, the scape for the win.

I would need more testing with cabal vs. rug, though I am inclined to believe you as I know you have stayed current in magic during my furlough. They are obviously particularly relevant on the play when they can't brainstorm and daze.

[Nithkar]

Could golden wish have a place in white versions? Having access to nether void, humility, batterskull and/or deed pre-sideboarding could be nice, though 5 mana is a lot.

I would first consider Glittering Wish instead Golden Wish. Here is why. First, for two mana instead of five, it will give you access to Deed. Second, if you think having something like nether void in the turn after you pay 5 for Golden Wish is necessary or useful (in which scenario your opponent will probably have the mana to just ignore nether void), then i think dovescape will accomplish a better result, being castable by glittering wish virtually on the same turn that Nether void. Third, it will give access to cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Golgari Charm, Gerrad's Verdict, Castigate, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage and Gaddock Tegg. Also, with a little splash for blue, you could go with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Meddling Mage. And, of course, any multicolored planeswalker you could see fitting in your strategy. It may be a little stretchy on the manabase, but this would be a much better package against combo and other annoying stuff then the one that Golden Wish can provide. That being said, I still think Glittering Wish is too slow and narrow to being worth it.

[Megadeus]

I just think 5 mana on turn 3 at the earliest, then having to wait a turn to cast the hate card , is just too slow. I mean what would your wish targets be anyway?

[Tao]

I would need more testing with cabal vs. rug, though I am inclined to believe you as I know you have stayed current in magic during my furlough. They are obviously particularly relevant on the play when they can't brainstorm and daze.

They are really mostly to combat Stifle. If you can get something else out of it that is of course great but Stifle is their far and away best card against Nic Fit. Countering Explorer triggers is a strong play but especially countering a Deed trigger is a huge blowout and one of the ways to lose this matchup because you trade 5 mana for 1. Brainstorm is not that much of a problem for Therapy as normal because hiding the Stifle won't help them against a Deed on the board.

Also, Huntmaster is a weak card against them. I think this is the only matchup in which I side Huntmasters out. They just randomly don't match up against their cards. Huntmaster can't trade with Goyf, he can't block Delver and the Token you get can't trade with a Goose. Flipping is highly unlikely, too. All it does is trade with a Bolt and the 2/2 chump blocker it leaves behind is not relevant enough to justify the mana investment. Tusk on the other hand for just one more mana gains 3 more life, potentially trades with Goyf and the Token it leaves behind when Bolted is big enough to trade with Goose.

[Arianrhod]

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

That's what I've settled on after playing the matchup a bit. Boarding out 1 Explorer seems a little odd, but with the full 7 1-drop accelerators in the deck, you can have draws where you just get literally mana and die. I find 6 turn-1 ramp plays to be sufficient. If you really disagree with cutting a Vet (which I can understand, I'm still not 100% on it...just like, 90%), then I would suggest cutting a Sakura-Tribe or a Wood Elves.

I like the ability to Wish for a Therapy, since the 2 life from Thoughtseize can really hurt in this matchup, and sometimes they have more than 1 copy of something that you don't like.

I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Primeval Titan should just be a 3rd Thragtusk (or some other option). I board it out fairly frequently. Every now and then it'll steal a win, but some other card [x] could also be able to steal that win, or prevent me from getting into that situation in the first place. Vs tempo it's right to board it out because most of the time you either don't need, won't get to the mana to play it, or it's just irrelevant.

Laughter Games is an obvious board out.

I wouldn't touch Huntmaster here, although I do typically board out one vs UWR Delver.

[jbone2016]

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

That's what I've settled on after playing the matchup a bit. Boarding out 1 Explorer seems a little odd, but with the full 7 1-drop accelerators in the deck, you can have draws where you just get literally mana and die. I find 6 turn-1 ramp plays to be sufficient. If you really disagree with cutting a Vet (which I can understand, I'm still not 100% on it...just like, 90%), then I would suggest cutting a Sakura-Tribe or a Wood Elves.

I like the ability to Wish for a Therapy, since the 2 life from Thoughtseize can really hurt in this matchup, and sometimes they have more than 1 copy of something that you don't like.

I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Primeval Titan should just be a 3rd Thragtusk (or some other option). I board it out fairly frequently. Every now and then it'll steal a win, but some other card [x] could also be able to steal that win, or prevent me from getting into that situation in the first place. Vs tempo it's right to board it out because most of the time you either don't need, won't get to the mana to play it, or it's just irrelevant.

Laughter Games is an obvious board out.

I wouldn't touch Huntmaster here, although I do typically board out one vs UWR Delver.

I have been Goldfishing with scapewish for a bit now and I tend to agree that Primetime seems unneeded in scapewish (but needed in the p. Fire version). More life gain: Finks vs. Tusk? Beats: Thrun or Avenger? One of batterskull? More beats?

[Ralf]

I'm struggling against the new TA delver/TNN. This deck is a real pain. Between flipped delver, tarmo, TNN, discard and counterspell, I just cannot get through the early turns and each time I could wipe the board, a TS take the deed away and I feel naked like a baby...

Even post board, this deck is a nightmare.

[Punksterbass]

My current Punishing Fire list:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain


Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless


I was thinking of cutting 1 Grove of the Burnwillows and replacing it with a second Forest, to dodge Blood Moon.dec a little better.

[pfiremc13]

I would first consider Glittering Wish instead Golden Wish. Here is why. First, for two mana instead of five, it will give you access to Deed. Second, if you think having something like nether void in the turn after you pay 5 for Golden Wish is necessary or useful (in which scenario your opponent will probably have the mana to just ignore nether void), then i think dovescape will accomplish a better result, being castable by glittering wish virtually on the same turn that Nether void. Third, it will give access to cards like Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Golgari Charm, Gerrad's Verdict, Castigate, Harmonic Sliver, Pridemage and Gaddock Tegg. Also, with a little splash for blue, you could go with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict and Meddling Mage. And, of course, any multicolored planeswalker you could see fitting in your strategy. It may be a little stretchy on the manabase, but this would be a much better package against combo and other annoying stuff then the one that Golden Wish can provide. That being said, I still think Glittering Wish is too slow and narrow to being worth it.

You seem to think I'd be building my deck around it. I wouldn't. I would put it in an existing white version to give it access to nether void, humility, and batterskull pre-sideboard.


I just think 5 mana on turn 3 at the earliest, then having to wait a turn to cast the hate card , is just too slow. I mean what would your wish targets be anyway?

See above. Basically, the cards I use to win the game.

[conboy31]

pfire, go for it and try it a few games. I am confident that you will eventually completely dismiss the card. 3WW do nothing is simply not playable. It can't be green sun'd and it is a sorcery (that does not scale like green sun, ie 2 through 6 mana) that will possibly eat a dead daze or spell pierce. Baneslayer beats most other creatures like humility does, gives you as much life as batterskull would and nether void is irrelevant. 3WW pass the turn against combo (I assume?) and not die again, don't get hit by a duress/cabal/thoughtseize or silence/chant, resolve nether void, go... seems unlikely.

[Tao]

Vs RUG, I board as such:

+2 REB
+3 Carpet of Flowers

-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 Primeval Titan
-2 Slaughter Games

The Therapy makes sense. On second thought, siding out one or both Scapeshifts instead of the Huntmasters could be right, too.

But how on earth could you possibly side Explorer out and keep Wood Elves in? Makes no sense.

[Arianrhod]

Mythic Report:

Round 1: 43 Lands

Game one: I'm sick, and I derp. I was warned by a friend ahead of time that this guy was playing Lands. I keep a perfectly reasonable hand that has absolutely no ramp, and as a result can't race his Dark Depths. Realize after it's too late that I could have Burning Wished for From the Ashes, because I forgot that I put that in my sideboard. Good start to the day. To be fair, he had the Exploration -> double Gamble opener, and was really quick to combo.

Game two: I remember that From the Ashes is a card in my 76. I Wish for it and blow up a fistful of lands. I then Top into a Slaughter Games and remove his Loams, and then Zenith for E.Wit to Ashes him again. Without Loams, this time the Ashes is fatal, and he dies to random dork beatdown (like a Wood Elves, a Vet, and the Witness casually lava axing him every turn).

Game three: I Ashes him, and then I Ashes him again. I never see a Slaughter this game, though, so he's able to consistently recover thanks to his 1-of basic Forest. I get him to 7, though, by repeatedly multi-time-walking him, and force him to Glacial Chasm. He Time Walks me twice with it, then has to let the Chasm go at 1 life. He slams O-Stone on his second turn therein, and then attempts to play a Mox Diamond to get him to the 5 mana to blow it. I respond to the Diamond by Deeding for 3, which wipes out all of board except for a Thragtusk. He Transmutes Tolaria West for a Maze of Ith and triumphantly passes the turn. I draw Scapeshift, and he dies.

***of note, folks***: I was able to From the Ashes TWICE in game 3, and still had more than enough mountains left over to Shift FTW. With 4 fetches in my deck. I think we have a winner.

Round 2: Elves

Game one: I know exactly what he's playing, and he knows exactly what I'm playing. He wins the die roll. I keep a hand with Therapy and Deed. I miss my Therapy (called Natural Order). He Glimpses off with Birchlore + Nettle Sentinel, and kills me.

Game two: I wrath him approximately 3 or 4 times, and he can't deal with Huntmasters.

Game three: I mull to 5, and keep Therapy, Therapy, Thoughtseize, Veteran, Scapeshift. Naturally I draw Badlands on my first turn, and proceed the hail of discard. I tear his hand apart, and get some good blind names that keep me in it. He ends up having to go beatdown with 3 Elves, because that's all he has left. I finally hit a green source, and leave up the Vet as a blocker. I end up with a board state of 6 lands in play, with Scapeshift in hand vs his 3 Elves. I'm somewhere around 90% to win on my next draw step -- only something like Slaughter Games, Therapy, Thoughtseize causes me to not win. Top lets me win. Explorer, Zenith, any ramp guy lets me win. Land lets me win. Etc. He draws one of the two remaining Natural Orders left in his deck for his turn (I'd discarded one earlier), Orders for Hoof, and kills me. Sick life.

Round 3: UWR Delver

Game one: Uhhhhhh stuff. The only notable thing I remember is that I cast a Slaughter Games into his active Stoneforge + 2 lands, and he derped and said "it resolves," which let me take his Batterskull. He knew better -- was just having an off day. Like I looked at him and was like, really? Really? As the board state evolved, it wouldn't have mattered if he had remembered to Vial it in -- I would have named Force instead, and then two turns later I Shifted for 36 -- he couldn't have gained enough life even with the Batterskull active.

Game two: Stuff happens, he dies. Note that he didn't see a True-Name in either of these games despite having three of them in his deck. Not sure it would have mattered had he seen one, but figured it was worth mentioning.

Round 4: BUG Delver

Game one: He makes a Delver, it dies, he makes a Tombstalker, it dies, I beat him to death with Huntmasters and Thragtusks.

Game two: I'm sick, and apparently forget to board out Slaughter Games. Derp. I learn that he has Stifle in his deck as he draws a bajillion of them and slows me way down between that and Wasteland. I use a Carpet of Flowers to Deed away a Tombstalker (#achievement). He chains Goyf into Goyf into Delver with no cards in hand (runner runner runner). I blow up the first Goyf, and wall his second with a Tusk for a few turns. On my last turn of life, I draw one of those Slaughter Games I forgot to board out. Awkward.

Game three: I adjust my board correctly, and shuffle up. I'm sick, though, and I forget to take out the Pyroclasm that I wished for last game -- as made immediately apparent when I draw it in my opening hand. I say fuck it and keep -- it's a 1-lander (mono Stomping Grounds) with Explorer, Pyroclasm, and a bunch of good stuff. My deck decides to be gracious and doesn't punish me -- I draw a Carpet of Flowers. He makes a Delver and a Deathrite Shaman. I draw a land, play it, play that Pyroclasm that I didn't board out, setting off Explorer and wrathing him. From there it's the Huntmaster and Thragtusk show again. Pretty sure I won this game because I forgot to board out that Pyroclasm. How fucking awkward is that.

Round 5: Burn

We ID into the top 8 -- it's a clean cut where all of the 9-pointers and up can just draw. I'm not incredibly worried, but I've played vs this guy a few times now and I know he knows a few tricks about playing vs Scape with Burn, so I don't REALLY want to play this matchup. And since we can all ID and be happy, there's no reason to.

Top 8: Junk

Top 8 agrees to split and we all go home, which is good because I feel like death itself at this point. At least I had a favorable matchup if someone had decided to play it out.

-------------

Thoughts on the current iteration of the deck:

I never used From the Ashes outside of vs my 43 lands opponent. That matchup, however, proved to me that Ashes is a viable option for Scapewish. Most of the time you're playing towards basics anyway, so Ashes doesn't actually kill that many of your lands. Usually like a Bayou and 1-2 mountain duals. Then, you get 1 basic Mountain with Ashes usually, which means you have ~8-9 mountains left in deck. Unless you get really unlucky, that should be enough. Just make sure you're fetching basics where possible.

I'm unconvinced Ashes is the correct card for that sideboard slot, though, at the same time. I mean, obviously it did a ton of work in the lands matchup, but that isn't really something that I'm worried about sideboarding for. It suffers from the Haunting Echoes problem, namely, that if you would ever wish for it you usually would rather just wish for Scapeshift and kill them dead.

The more I think about it, the more I want to cut Primeval Titan. It's not like in Punishing where he gets your engines rolling / turbo'd. Not sure what I want to put in this slot yet.

I haven't missed Phyrexian Tower even once, and my previous sporadic manabase problems have all but completely evaporated since going up to 4 fetches. Top feels stronger than ever, as well. I still obsess about not having that 12th mountain, but I can live with it. Even if it's scary at times, I think that 11 mountains is correct and a good trade-off for the increased consistency.

Maindeck Laughter Games have continued to be acceptable. It feels good to not be dead to combo game one, and the sideboard space that it opened up is greatly appreciated. Furthermore, it makes it much more likely that you're going to win game 1 against Miracles, which is usually important since a 1-0-1 result is still a win for the round. Just remember to sideboard them out vs fair matchups =.=

I'll update the link in my sig with the most recent Scapewish list.

If anyone has any thoughts on what that open slot (Primeval) should be, now's the time to express them. I'm expecting a meta composed primarily of the following 8 decks at the GP:

Miracles
Sneak
Storm
Jund
Death and Taxes
UWx Blade
UWR Delver
RUG Delver

I consider Scapewish favored against everything on that list except Storm. I also don't think that Storm is fixable with 1 slot, so I'm willing to accept that as a throw-away where I just need to get lucky. Obviously there's a high chance of other decks besides those 8, because GP and people will play whatever they can get their hands on / whatever they want. But, yeah.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Carpet of Flowers is DA BOMB. Seriously.
----------

@Tao, I had some weird logic in my head where the Wood Elves was better to leave in than the Veteran because of Stifle or Submerge or something, but the more I thought it through while trying to argue the point, the more I realized I was just wrong. You're right -- one of the Wood Elves should be the 5th board-out.

[Ralf]

Thoughts on the current iteration of the deck:

I never used From the Ashes outside of vs my 43 lands opponent. That matchup, however, proved to me that Ashes is a viable option for Scapewish. Most of the time you're playing towards basics anyway, so Ashes doesn't actually kill that many of your lands. Usually like a Bayou and 1-2 mountain duals. Then, you get 1 basic Mountain with Ashes usually, which means you have ~8-9 mountains left in deck. Unless you get really unlucky, that should be enough. Just make sure you're fetching basics where possible.

I'm unconvinced Ashes is the correct card for that sideboard slot, though, at the same time. I mean, obviously it did a ton of work in the lands matchup, but that isn't really something that I'm worried about sideboarding for. It suffers from the Haunting Echoes problem, namely, that if you would ever wish for it you usually would rather just wish for Scapeshift and kill them dead.

The more I think about it, the more I want to cut Primeval Titan. It's not like in Punishing where he gets your engines rolling / turbo'd. Not sure what I want to put in this slot yet.

I haven't missed Phyrexian Tower even once, and my previous sporadic manabase problems have all but completely evaporated since going up to 4 fetches. Top feels stronger than ever, as well. I still obsess about not having that 12th mountain, but I can live with it. Even if it's scary at times, I think that 11 mountains is correct and a good trade-off for the increased consistency.

Maindeck Laughter Games have continued to be acceptable. It feels good to not be dead to combo game one, and the sideboard space that it opened up is greatly appreciated. Furthermore, it makes it much more likely that you're going to win game 1 against Miracles, which is usually important since a 1-0-1 result is still a win for the round. Just remember to sideboard them out vs fair matchups =.=

I'll update the link in my sig with the most recent Scapewish list.

If anyone has any thoughts on what that open slot (Primeval) should be, now's the time to express them. I'm expecting a meta composed primarily of the following 8 decks at the GP:

Miracles
Sneak
Storm
Jund
Death and Taxes
UWx Blade
UWR Delver
RUG Delver

I consider Scapewish favored against everything on that list except Storm. I also don't think that Storm is fixable with 1 slot, so I'm willing to accept that as a throw-away where I just need to get lucky. Obviously there's a high chance of other decks besides those 8, because GP and people will play whatever they can get their hands on / whatever they want. But, yeah.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Carpet of Flowers is DA BOMB. Seriously.
----------

@Tao, I had some weird logic in my head where the Wood Elves was better to leave in than the Veteran because of Stifle or Submerge or something, but the more I thought it through while trying to argue the point, the more I realized I was just wrong. You're right -- one of the Wood Elves should be the 5th board-out.

I replaced a Huntmaster with an Ooze for the BOM main event.
It did win me a couple of games on its own.

I know that by the past you dismissed him but it is really a MVP against certain bad MU not to say "Storm", "Dregde" and "Reanimator".

You might want to use him in place of Primeval !

[pfiremc13]

pfire, go for it and try it a few games. I am confident that you will eventually completely dismiss the card. 3WW do nothing is simply not playable. It can't be green sun'd and it is a sorcery (that does not scale like green sun, ie 2 through 6 mana) that will possibly eat a dead daze or spell pierce. Baneslayer beats most other creatures like humility does, gives you as much life as batterskull would and nether void is irrelevant. 3WW pass the turn against combo (I assume?) and not die again, don't get hit by a duress/cabal/thoughtseize or silence/chant, resolve nether void, go... seems unlikely.

I'll try it out. I wasn't expecting it to be good, but it was just an idea. However, I am not replacing my current (working) sideboard with idyllic tutors - humility is for sneak and show, and batterskull is better than BSA because it has vigilance and works with humility.

[Arianrhod]

I replaced a Huntmaster with an Ooze for the BOM main event.
It did win me a couple of games on its own.

I know that by the past you dismissed him but it is really a MVP against certain bad MU not to say "Storm", "Dregde" and "Reanimator".

You might want to use him in place of Primeval !

My biggest single issue with Ooze is that he's a 2-drop. Seriously.

I know Reanimator has hands where it just has discard and cantrips. I know that Dredge sometimes plays a long con. I know that Storm sometimes needs to use Past in Flames to win.

But in Kevin-land, Reanimator always has t1 Entomb t2 [reanimation spell]. Dredge always goes City of Brass -> LED -> Faithless Looting. Storm always just goes Ad Nauseum -> kill you.

A 2-drop isn't going to help in these matchups -- especially not when it's more like a 4-drop: you frequently need to Zenith it up, and then have a G immediately available for it to do anything.

I understand in paper how Ooze looks phenomenal -- but in my experience, it's never done actual anything. And yeah, other people have other experiences, but it's not like I haven't tried Ooze in the past. Hell, I've had Ooze in my opening hand against Reanimator, as he proceeds to make a Griselbrand on t1 via Lotus Petal. Maybe that's just my rotten luck, but if that's how my luck in these matchups goes, hedging them seems like a rather poor decision.

I COULD be convinced to try a singleton Deathrite Shaman, as he's orders of magnitude faster. I'll have to tank on that one.

[Esper3k]

Just a new reader to this thread (yes, I know the deck's been around for awhile, but I only recently got interested in my continuing quest to find a new interesting deck to play) with a couple of questions:

1) When does Veteran Explorer get boarded out? Clearly it's not as good when your opponent is playing basics, but how many basics are we talking about? Ie, would we still keep him in if you're up against a deck that plays only like 2 basics?

2) Carpet of Flowers vs Veteran Explorer: This one is mostly for the Scapeshift builds, but do you ever find any problems ramping to enough lands when you board out Veteran Explorer for Carpet of Flowers against the blue decks?

@Arianrhod: I really like the feel of your list a lot and was wondering if you ever regret only having 3 Scapeshift in your 75? Also, I notice you feel like the Sneaky Show matchup is favorable - can you elaborate on why that is? It seems that if they resolve Show & Tell with any sort of protection, we're fairly dead. Our only real hand disruption post-board is 4 Therapy + 2 Thoughtseize as well as the Slaughter Games (I assume the 3rd stays in the board as a Wish target?), but given how consistently T3-4 they are, there's a good chance you won't get to cast Slaughter Games before they go off.

Obviously my viewpoint is not an experienced one, but I'd second a vote for the 1-of Scavenging Ooze. Gives you another way to control Tarmogoyfs and small amount of graveyard hate and plays well with the massive amounts of mana the deck generates.

[pfiremc13]

I COULD be convinced to try a singleton Deathrite Shaman, as he's orders of magnitude faster. I'll have to tank on that one.

Having tried DRS in thune fit a little, he is awesome vs. dredge. The life gain is quite relevant too.

[MrIggins]

Game three: I adjust my board correctly, and shuffle up. I'm sick, though, and I forget to take out the Pyroclasm that I wished for last game -- as made immediately apparent when I draw it in my opening hand. I say fuck it and keep -- it's a 1-lander (mono Stomping Grounds) with Explorer, Pyroclasm, and a bunch of good stuff. My deck decides to be gracious and doesn't punish me -- I draw a Carpet of Flowers. He makes a Delver and a Deathrite Shaman. I draw a land, play it, play that Pyroclasm that I didn't board out, setting off Explorer and wrathing him. From there it's the Huntmaster and Thragtusk show again. Pretty sure I won this game because I forgot to board out that Pyroclasm. How fucking awkward is that.


I've won a game against Sneak/Show because I forgot to board my Reverent Silence back out, drew it, and nuked his Leyline with it when i didn't have a wish. Very tilting for both of us. Just know that it is probably worse for them.

RE: what do with Prime Time?

I could be convinced of a 3rd Thragtusk so our huge monster count doesn't drop, and it helps us grind out the fair decks you listed. However, I think I would be happier with something that we can use to beat TNN, or at least something that isn't brick walled by it. Not because I think it's a huge problem for our deck, but mostly because it's the new big thing and I expect to see a fair amount of it in DC, so having something like a Kodama of the North Tree or somesuch might be where we want to be- of course it could also just be the 4th copy of Scapeshift for the 76. I could definitely get behind a Deathrite, that card did a lot of work when I was still on GB and I wouldn't expect it to be much different here. Ooze is reasonable, though I do understand your concerns about it. We've got options- which doesn't answer the question much.

Really pleased to hear that you've had fewer mana issues with this configuration. I'm with you on feeling a little uneasy about 11 mountains, but I've also had it come up only once so far, so I'll take the consistency.

I'm still on the 2x Pyroclasm sideboard plan, particularly since we now have Toxic Deluge. So in matchups where it's good we can bring in 2x Pyroclasm, and still have a Wish-able sweeper. It's possible this changes before DC, but at this point I'm pretty set on it.

EDIT:

When does Veteran Explorer get boarded out? Clearly it's not as good when your opponent is playing basics, but how many basics are we talking about? Ie, would we still keep him in if you're up against a deck that plays only like 2 basics?


Against a deck like Maverick, I would not consider boarding him out. He comes out for me when the opponent can make as good a use of the mana as we can. This is mostly Jace decks with a lot of basics. Ramping them into a turn 2 Jace is bad news bears, and certainly not where you want to be. Otherwise I rarely board them out. They can ramp combo towards killing us, sure, but since we control the ramp, we get to set it off and immediately Slaughter Games them, or something. It helps that setting him off also involves flashing back a Therapy in those matchups, which makes it a bit safer.


2) Carpet of Flowers vs Veteran Explorer: This one is mostly for the Scapeshift builds, but do you ever find any problems ramping to enough lands when you board out Veteran Explorer for Carpet of Flowers against the blue decks?


Again in my experience, you're only doing this against decks like Miracles, maybe Stoneblade, where they have Jaces. Those decks are trying to play long games. It's pretty unusual that you'll have a hard time getting your lands in those games.



@Arianrhod: I really like the feel of your list a lot and was wondering if you ever regret only having 3 Scapeshift in your 75? Also, I notice you feel like the Sneaky Show matchup is favorable - can you elaborate on why that is? It seems that if they resolve Show & Tell with any sort of protection, we're fairly dead. Our only real hand disruption post-board is 4 Therapy + 2 Thoughtseize as well as the Slaughter Games (I assume the 3rd stays in the board as a Wish target?), but given how consistently T3-4 they are, there's a good chance you won't get to cast Slaughter Games before they go off.


I haven't been playing the deck as long as Kevin has obviously, but I think we're likely to lose game 1 (maindeck Slaughter Games helps this a lot though). Game 2 and 3 we get to load up on disruption and the goal becomes stalling to Slaughter Games, which often cripples them enough to either let us steal the game with Huntmasters or angry mountains, or resolve the second Slaughter Games, which WILL end the game. I'm currently something like 3-2 lifetime against the deck in competitive events, which is partly luck, but not entirely I'm sure. They are consistently T3-T4, but we can pretty easily T3 a Slaughter Games and seriously mess that up.

[pfiremc13]

1) When does Veteran Explorer get boarded out? Clearly it's not as good when your opponent is playing basics, but how many basics are we talking about? Ie, would we still keep him in if you're up against a deck that plays only like 2 basics?


Only against non-mana-denial blue decks, and even then you're just boarding in carpet. It's worse against deck with basics, but it's certainly better for you as your opponent doesn't have thragtusk and scapeshifts to ramp into.

[Arianrhod]

Just a new reader to this thread (yes, I know the deck's been around for awhile, but I only recently got interested in my continuing quest to find a new interesting deck to play) with a couple of questions:

1) When does Veteran Explorer get boarded out? Clearly it's not as good when your opponent is playing basics, but how many basics are we talking about? Ie, would we still keep him in if you're up against a deck that plays only like 2 basics?

2) Carpet of Flowers vs Veteran Explorer: This one is mostly for the Scapeshift builds, but do you ever find any problems ramping to enough lands when you board out Veteran Explorer for Carpet of Flowers against the blue decks?

@Arianrhod: I really like the feel of your list a lot and was wondering if you ever regret only having 3 Scapeshift in your 75? Also, I notice you feel like the Sneaky Show matchup is favorable - can you elaborate on why that is? It seems that if they resolve Show & Tell with any sort of protection, we're fairly dead. Our only real hand disruption post-board is 4 Therapy + 2 Thoughtseize as well as the Slaughter Games (I assume the 3rd stays in the board as a Wish target?), but given how consistently T3-4 they are, there's a good chance you won't get to cast Slaughter Games before they go off.

Obviously my viewpoint is not an experienced one, but I'd second a vote for the 1-of Scavenging Ooze. Gives you another way to control Tarmogoyfs and small amount of graveyard hate and plays well with the massive amounts of mana the deck generates.

I board out Veteran immediately vs Miracles, and usually they come out vs Esperblade, as well. General principles for boarding out Veterans:

1-) opponent has at least 3 or 4 basics. 2 is not enough to care.
2-) opponent is doing something with those basics that we can't readily solve.

2 is the more important one. Examples include High Tide (combo off, island count for high-tide-the-card), Esperblade (planeswalkers, batterskull + stoneforge bullshit, snapcasting force of wills), Miracles (planeswalkers, RIP + Helm in the same turn combo, huge Entreats).

When siding out Veterans, side out 3. Sometimes you still want one to Zenith for.

Other basic-heavy decks, like Merfolk and Death and taxes, we tend not to care -- they don't pass the 2) test. What they're doing, we can easily fix via Deed or Burning Wish. Just keep in mind the consideration of "what are they going to do with these lands" vs "what am I going to do with these lands." In game 1 situations vs these decks its often still correct to fire off an Explorer trigger if you have something meaningful to do.

-----

I haven't had problems getting a sufficient land count with Explorers out of the deck. Most of the decks that you're boarding Explorer out against are slower control decks where you'll get to 7 lands naturally half the time, and even without, you can still use Carpet mana to Zenith up Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves and ramp that way.

-----

I actually used to run the 3rd maindeck Scapeshift (with the 4th in the board for wish, obviously). I tried it for a few months, and decided that 2 maindeck + 1 wishable is the best number. You don't generally need or want to see multiples, and at 3 I was getting clogged a bit. There were a few games where I just powered through countermagic with the 3rd copy (run the first into FoW, then resolve the 2nd), which was nice, but it didn't feel necessary.

Sneak and Show can't actually beat Slaughter Games, and they struggle with Therapy. Oftentimes they can just Force of Will a Thoughtseize or a Hymn or something, and then casually go off. Therapy is extremely disadvantageous to Force, because it'll be coming back anyway. Sometimes they nut out, and sometimes they're running a list that still has the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity, which is extremely bad for us, but generally speaking I've won a lot more against Sneak than I've lost. It's not a FUN matchup, by any stretch -- you're sweating bullets the whole time, but it's generally winnable. REB also goes a long way in the matchup, since it stops their "quick threat" of Show and Tell, and sometimes you can "gotcha" them by REBing a Brainstorm in response to Therapy.

Also, this is a matchup where you don't board out Explorers despite them having basics and doing powerful things with them. You also board in the Carpets. This leaves you with a shitton of ramp that gets you to 4 mana on turn 2-turn 3, meaning that we can consistently unload a Slaughter before they're ready to do anything -- usually with some hand disruption and/or REB protection on the way. Keep in mind that Sneak and Show is a very, VERY inconsistent deck, and oftentimes they're struggling to find one of the 3 parts of their combo (mana, enabler, monster). Sometimes all the gears fire and we die, but if they stumble even slightly, we're there to punish them, and punish them hard.

Also also, you board in the 3rd Slaughter Games in this matchup. You want it in your opening hand, and Burning Wish priority in the matchup is Reverent Silence (if Leyline) followed by Innocent Blood (if Show Emrakul) followed by Scapeshift. Your aggro plan ceases to exist (Thrags board out) -- this becomes a straight combo mirror. You have two combos to their one, though: you can Shift kill them, or you can kill them by hitting multiple Slaughter Games via drawing/topping/E.Wit, and exiling all of their monsters.

Hope that helps -- if you have any other questions, just fire away.

[Ralf]

My biggest single issue with Ooze is that he's a 2-drop. Seriously.

I know Reanimator has hands where it just has discard and cantrips. I know that Dredge sometimes plays a long con. I know that Storm sometimes needs to use Past in Flames to win.

But in Kevin-land, Reanimator always has t1 Entomb t2 [reanimation spell]. Dredge always goes City of Brass -> LED -> Faithless Looting. Storm always just goes Ad Nauseum -> kill you.

A 2-drop isn't going to help in these matchups -- especially not when it's more like a 4-drop: you frequently need to Zenith it up, and then have a G immediately available for it to do anything.

I understand in paper how Ooze looks phenomenal -- but in my experience, it's never done actual anything. And yeah, other people have other experiences, but it's not like I haven't tried Ooze in the past. Hell, I've had Ooze in my opening hand against Reanimator, as he proceeds to make a Griselbrand on t1 via Lotus Petal. Maybe that's just my rotten luck, but if that's how my luck in these matchups goes, hedging them seems like a rather poor decision.

I COULD be convinced to try a singleton Deathrite Shaman, as he's orders of magnitude faster. I'll have to tank on that one.

Seriously, a 2-drop is not THAT bad.

I met 4 combo during the BOM main event:
- Dredge piloted by one of the french top player
- Next level Reanimator (instant reanimation a bit like Tinfins)
- ANT
- Omnishow

I guess we could spend hours talking about our own experience but I cannot see any other card which could help you against a turn 1 Griselbrand. Really. This is a game you are bound to lose anyway...

For me playing these MU could be simply reduced to this sentence: "Who won the f. toss ?".

I won the toss and so game 1 against Dredge with Ooze
I lost game 2.
I won game 3 naming LED with therapy on turn 1, followed by a turn 3 GSZ for Ooze and started winning from there.

Same could go for the other combo/unfair MU I faced that day.
ANT - > I won the Toss and won the match (won 2 - 1).
Reanimator -> I lost the Toss and lost the match (lost 1 - 2)
Omnishow -> I won the Toss but I lost the match (lost 0 - 2, worst MU for NicFit...)

Go for DRS if you feel like it. But in these MU I would rather have Ooze than DRS.

Our meta are different I guess. Every big event I attempted I have to be prepared to face a lot of unfair MU and I am often kicked out of top 16 or top 8 because of those unfair decks.

Ooze was my revenge on that day and I won't attempt another event with a scapeshift list without him, until we find another good hate against these MU.
Don't get me wrong, Ooze will not turn a losing game into a winning one. But if by any means, I'm not dead by turn 3/4 against these decks, they will have a very hard time to deal with him.

Not to mention that Ooze will slow the game speed down in game 2/3. Dregde / ANT / Reanimator have both sided accordingly to deal with him. And just because of that, it was priceless.

[nedleeds]

3WW pass the turn against combo (I assume?) and not die again, don't get hit by a duress/cabal/thoughtseize or silence/chant, resolve nether void, go... seems unlikely.

If I'm tapping 3WW in this deck I am slamming a Russian Baneslayer with a look of anger on my face. Or perhaps a Blinding Angel which laughs at Bolt, Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay and TNN.

[Arianrhod]

Pretty much what nedleeeds said. Or, an Archangel of Thune to go wombocombo.

-----

I think I'm leaning towards Kalonian Hydra at this point to replace Primeval.

[MrIggins]

I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on that a bit. What makes it better than our other options? It seems very similar to the Chameleon Colossus slot that ended up not doing much, though obviously trample makes it a bit stronger.

[GtF]

Just want to add a 3rd vote for Scavenging Oooze. Scavenging Ooze is really great and a worthwhile target in a deck packing GSZ. Yeah, the hands where they god-draw you, it will not help, but in any situation where you are able to slow them down, it will dominate the game. It is a much better as a 1 of tutor target than Deathrite Shaman, since its impact is immediate and is also just more powerful once you reach that stage in the game.

[pfiremc13]

Pretty much what nedleeeds said. Or, an Archangel of Thune to go wombocombo.

-----

I think I'm leaning towards Kalonian Hydra at this point to replace Primeval.

What do you think gbw can do to make its g1 combo matchup better?

[Arianrhod]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree


All of them have some sort of evasion (trample, flying, other) to get around / punch through True-Name Nemesis. They each also have individual strengths:

Hydra is a FAST clock.
Gurzigost enables recursion of used GSZ targets and useful spells.
Broooooooooooodmate Dragon brings two bodies, so even if they answer one, you still get a 4/4 flyer out of the deal.
Kodama has shroud.

And individual weaknesses:

Hydra has absolutely 0 protection, and is awful on defense (just a 4/4).
Gurzigost requires you to be drawing blanks to feed to it in order to keep it "unblockable."
Broooooooooooodmate Dragon is a 6-drop, and the individual halves are both pretty weak.
Kodama loses to 8/10 Tarmogoyfs.

Of these, Gurzigost and Kodama are obviously the weakest. Scape doesn't really have blanks, per se, and you don't generally want to be discarding business to make him nasty. Also, sometimes your graveyard just isn't that big, and he might randomly have trouble sticking around. Kodama loses to Tarmogoyf, which is not a good place to be in the metagame right now -- especially since I foresee a lot of Goyf + True-Name being in the same deck(s) (obv exception being UWR and UWx blade).

Hydra's biggest flaws (dies to removal and awful on D) are both fixable inherent to the deck: you can Therapy on removal before playing it (if you know that Hydra is your line) and also most Swords to Plowshares decks are....strained already vs us because they HAVE to deal with Hunts and Thrag; and, speaking of Thrag, if you're looking for a defensive option at the 5-spot, we already run a pair of him. Hydra doesn't NEED to play defense, so it's okay that it's bad at it.

Broodmate's biggest flaw isn't really fixable, per se -- a pair of 4/4s is still not as good as an 8/8 trample that can become 16/16 if left unchecked. I also remember running Broodmate in the past, and he didn't make the cut -- as also with our Punishing brethren, who I remember also used to run him, but no longer do.

So, of these options, I consider Kalonian Hydra the winner. Now, for Hydra vs Ooze -- that's a trickier debate, and one that I am probably ill-advised to complete due to my (in)famous dislike of Scavenging Ooze as a card.

[Arianrhod]

What do you think gbw can do to make its g1 combo matchup better?

Maindeck Gaddock Teeg. Or, if in Rectors, maindeck Nether Void. Or, run more "Rock"-styled with Hymns and/or targeted discard. Or, try some wackiness with like Fauna Shaman or Eladamri's Call. Or, put in a combo of some variety and pray to your deity that you assemble it before they do.

Of these, Teeg is probably the strongest -- it just requires you to not go deep with planeswalkers and big spells, and accept that sometimes your Zeniths might be shut down. It's not "fun," but there isn't much else GBW can do vs combo pre-board, realistically. I definitely don't think that Golden Wish is the answer -- as others have pointed out, it's just too damned expensive. You'd need a Tower draw to actually resolve the Wish on turn 2, and even then you're not resolving your target until turn 3 (maybe later, depending on the cost of the subject of the wish). Like, Golden Wish -> Nether Void is strong against Storm until you realize that there is NO way you're not just dead by the time you attempt to cast Void. Wishing for a Batterskull is stronger, but at that point, why not just run Stoneforge? You can easily incorporate Stoneforge and Rector into a Pod shell, and get all the benefits of Golden Wish without the durdles. Well, without most of the durdles.

Glittering Wish is more realistically-costed, and there is the potential for something there if someone wanted to look for it. Wish->Teeg is a solid option, and obv you have like Decay, Pulse/Vindicate, and so forth. The problem is how to make Glittering Wish into an engine, I feel. You need it to do something -- to assemble some engine or combo. It can't just be an answer card.

And, of course, there's Living Wish, which still exists and can still get a variety of hatebears (someone of you can get with Golden, ie Canonist) as well as hateful lanes, like Tabernacle and Karakas.

I've considered Death Wish in the past, but found the life cost to just be too extravagant. If it was like a flat, "pay 5 life," or something, then maybe we could talk. But "half rounded up" is just a beating.

[pfiremc13]

I think gaddock teeg a good idea; it will also free up more sideboard space. The only problem I have is what to cut for it. How has your varolz been working for you?

The problem I have with that choice is show and tell, which is the only other combo deck I'm mainly worried about. Reanimator is also a problem, but this deck has maindeck grave hate to deal with dredge and deed to deal with elves. But game 1 vs sneak and show is almost unwinnable unless you get lucky with therapies.

[Tao]

I would vote for keeping Primeval Titan in.

In the Sideboard I don't think the Carpets are good:
- they are only good in a minority of matchups: only good against fair, blue, decks that are not Shardless. Additional Red Blasts would be good in these matchups too but also great against Combo.
- the deck already plays 32 mana sources in the maindeck
- they have no synergy with Scapewish and anti-synergy with Deed

[Arianrhod]

I would vote for keeping Primeval Titan in.

In the Sideboard I don't think the Carpets are good:
- they are only good in a minority of matchups: only good against fair, blue, decks that are not Shardless. Additional Red Blasts would be good in these matchups too but also great against Combo.
- the deck already plays 32 mana sources in the maindeck
- they have no synergy with Scapewish and anti-synergy with Deed

I wouldn't call fair blue decks a minority of matchups, and Shardless doesn't even count because that's barely a deck anymore (at least, over here -- maybe it's still a think in Europe / online, I dunno).

They're also useful against more than just fair blue decks, though -- Carpet has been instrumental in getting Slaughter Games out on time against blue combo. You could easily enough argue here that if they were just additional discard / REBs, one could slow down the game enough to get Games online later in the match, but my experience has been that this just doesn't work. We're not really a "hold up instant speed permission" deck. REB does nothing to Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromaster, Stoneforge Mystic, Liliana of the Veil, Tombstalker, or a resolved True-Name Nemesis -- or, indeed, any of the other non-Delver non-Stifle threats that tempo decks present.

If [person X] doesn't want to play Carpet of Flowers in their build, I won't give them a hard time -- assuming, of course, that I hear a solid argument for why not. But it's gonna be a while before it leaves my list. I like having a good matchup against anything running Islands, stretching from RUG Delver to Miracles to Sneak and Show. A free Black Lotus every turn is nothing to sneeze at.

Also, Carpet has some weird synergy with Deed and Scapeshift. As I said in the report for Mythic, I actually used a Carpet to get to the 8 mana necessary to Deed away a Tombstalker which I otherwise had no answer to. Yes, it dies to Deed on basically anything. But it can be used to both force a Deed through Pierce/Daze/etc, and to hit higher Deed numbers than are traditionally needed, which is relevant vs Reanimator, BUG Delver, and Sneak/Show. With Scapeshift, you can use floating mana to cast the Shift, leaving all of the mana you float from your lands for effects/spells post-shift: ie, float a bunch, cast Shift, use floating mana to spin top, find something, pop it, etc.

I'm really never unhappy to have Carpet in my list, and ESPECIALLY not now, with the storm of True-Name Nemesis and tempo decks I'm expecting to face at GPDC. In fact, I would recommend Carpet of Flowers to virtually any deck that's running green -- not just Nic Fit.

[nedleeds]

Glittering Wish is more realistically-costed, and there is the potential for something there if someone wanted to look for it. Wish->Teeg is a solid option, and obv you have like Decay, Pulse/Vindicate, and so forth. The problem is how to make Glittering Wish into an engine, I feel. You need it to do something -- to assemble some engine or combo. It can't just be an answer card.


I've played a ton of glittering rock in modern. I think in BWg or BGw Explorer rock I'm not sure I'd rather have it than Living Wish; mostly because with Living Wish you can use it as Rampant Growth in a pinch.

That being said here's some "useful" stuff Glittering gets that Living Wish can't:

Zealous Persecution / Golgari Charm / Deed / Crime//Punishment (vs. empty / TNN / elves or goblins that get off to a fast start)
Abrupt Decay (also goes against the mantra of not countering the wish / tutor)
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad / Vraska
Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse
Life // Death
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Far // Away (as bad edict)
Treasured Find
Gerrard's Verdict
Fracturing Gust ... should you be so fortunate to encounter Affinity which should already be a blowout
all the other gold charms, some of which aren't awful
a ton of things that can gain you life that aren't men (Overgrown Estate / Behemoth Sledge)

In addition to the insane dudes:

Gaddock Teeg
Tidehollow Sculler / Sin Collector
Wilt-Leaf Liege vs. active Liliana
Loxodon Hierarch / Finks / other life gain bodies
Sigarda
Dryad Militant
Ashen Rider / Angel of Despair decent to preemptively wish for vs. Show and Tell
Orzhov Pontiff
several other idiotic legends and insane 6+ mana enchantments ...

Omnitell can't beat Iona off a show and tell, they might not be able to beat Ruric Thar either but that's really reaching ...

[jbone2016]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree




Have we considered Ruric Thar in scapewish or this more of a non-bo?

[Arianrhod]

I tried him once, he was very underwhelming. Nugging yourself for 12 to Wish -> spell is pretty awful, too.

[Esper3k]

I board out Veteran immediately vs Miracles, and usually they come out vs Esperblade, as well. General principles for boarding out Veterans:

1-) opponent has at least 3 or 4 basics. 2 is not enough to care.
2-) opponent is doing something with those basics that we can't readily solve.

2 is the more important one. Examples include High Tide (combo off, island count for high-tide-the-card), Esperblade (planeswalkers, batterskull + stoneforge bullshit, snapcasting force of wills), Miracles (planeswalkers, RIP + Helm in the same turn combo, huge Entreats).

When siding out Veterans, side out 3. Sometimes you still want one to Zenith for.

Other basic-heavy decks, like Merfolk and Death and taxes, we tend not to care -- they don't pass the 2) test. What they're doing, we can easily fix via Deed or Burning Wish. Just keep in mind the consideration of "what are they going to do with these lands" vs "what am I going to do with these lands." In game 1 situations vs these decks its often still correct to fire off an Explorer trigger if you have something meaningful to do.

-----

I haven't had problems getting a sufficient land count with Explorers out of the deck. Most of the decks that you're boarding Explorer out against are slower control decks where you'll get to 7 lands naturally half the time, and even without, you can still use Carpet mana to Zenith up Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves and ramp that way.

-----

I actually used to run the 3rd maindeck Scapeshift (with the 4th in the board for wish, obviously). I tried it for a few months, and decided that 2 maindeck + 1 wishable is the best number. You don't generally need or want to see multiples, and at 3 I was getting clogged a bit. There were a few games where I just powered through countermagic with the 3rd copy (run the first into FoW, then resolve the 2nd), which was nice, but it didn't feel necessary.

Sneak and Show can't actually beat Slaughter Games, and they struggle with Therapy. Oftentimes they can just Force of Will a Thoughtseize or a Hymn or something, and then casually go off. Therapy is extremely disadvantageous to Force, because it'll be coming back anyway. Sometimes they nut out, and sometimes they're running a list that still has the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity, which is extremely bad for us, but generally speaking I've won a lot more against Sneak than I've lost. It's not a FUN matchup, by any stretch -- you're sweating bullets the whole time, but it's generally winnable. REB also goes a long way in the matchup, since it stops their "quick threat" of Show and Tell, and sometimes you can "gotcha" them by REBing a Brainstorm in response to Therapy.

Also, this is a matchup where you don't board out Explorers despite them having basics and doing powerful things with them. You also board in the Carpets. This leaves you with a shitton of ramp that gets you to 4 mana on turn 2-turn 3, meaning that we can consistently unload a Slaughter before they're ready to do anything -- usually with some hand disruption and/or REB protection on the way. Keep in mind that Sneak and Show is a very, VERY inconsistent deck, and oftentimes they're struggling to find one of the 3 parts of their combo (mana, enabler, monster). Sometimes all the gears fire and we die, but if they stumble even slightly, we're there to punish them, and punish them hard.

Also also, you board in the 3rd Slaughter Games in this matchup. You want it in your opening hand, and Burning Wish priority in the matchup is Reverent Silence (if Leyline) followed by Innocent Blood (if Show Emrakul) followed by Scapeshift. Your aggro plan ceases to exist (Thrags board out) -- this becomes a straight combo mirror. You have two combos to their one, though: you can Shift kill them, or you can kill them by hitting multiple Slaughter Games via drawing/topping/E.Wit, and exiling all of their monsters.

Hope that helps -- if you have any other questions, just fire away.

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

[Star|Scream]

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

Yeah, there's collective voyage. But slots are limited.

[Ralf]

Yeah, there's collective voyage. But slots are limited.

Or kodama's reach / Seek the Horizon...

[Esper3k]

Collective Voyage looks pretty cool! Sure your opponents might be able to get some lands out of it too, but you should be able to abuse it more than them (or just not use it in matchups where opponents have a bunch of basics). What I like about it is that you don't pay the extra mana until it's resolving, which makes it so that you can potentially play around taxing counters like Daze and still at least get some lands out of it.

[Arianrhod]

Collective Voyage looks pretty cool! Sure your opponents might be able to get some lands out of it too, but you should be able to abuse it more than them (or just not use it in matchups where opponents have a bunch of basics). What I like about it is that you don't pay the extra mana until it's resolving, which makes it so that you can potentially play around taxing counters like Daze and still at least get some lands out of it.

Voyage is by far the superior option in Wishable ramp. I still run into situations every now and then where I find myself wanting it, but overall I've come to believe that Voyage is mostly a crutch. There are very few situations where you're at 4-5 lands, where you don't need to use the Wish to answer something (see: Liliana of the Veil), and where you wouldn't be better served to just sandbag the Wish.

[Richard Cheese]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree




Seeing all these monstrosity/devotion decks in Standard makes me wonder if Theros doesn't have a few hidden gems for Nic Fit
What about
Mistcutter Hydra
Polukranos, World Eater
Nylea, God of the Hunt


This is one of the only decks in Legacy that can generate the mana to make Mistcutter and Polukranos serious threats. Mistcutter has obvious advantages against Blue, but stinks to Zenith for. Polukranos is bigger than most of the format out of the gate, and can potentially act as another Deed, but lacks protection or evasion. Nylea is perhaps the most interesting because you can GSZ for her, and as long as your devotion stays below 5, she can't be plowed or sacced to Liliana (I believe, could be wrong). Basically she just sits there sending everyone else over the top, being essentially removal-proof unless the format suddenly starts packing lots of Erases. I don't know that any builds really have the necessary permanents to actually switch her to creature mode, but with Zenith you could potentially have a singleton Primalcrux or Cloudthresher for surprise attacks, but that honestly doesn't even seem necessary.

[Ralf]

Arbor colossus coule also compete...

[pfiremc13]

Seeing all these monstrosity/devotion decks in Standard makes me wonder if Theros doesn't have a few hidden gems for Nic Fit
What about
Mistcutter Hydra
Polukranos, World Eater
Nylea, God of the Hunt


This is one of the only decks in Legacy that can generate the mana to make Mistcutter and Polukranos serious threats. Mistcutter has obvious advantages against Blue, but stinks to Zenith for. Polukranos is bigger than most of the format out of the gate, and can potentially act as another Deed, but lacks protection or evasion. Nylea is perhaps the most interesting because you can GSZ for her, and as long as your devotion stays below 5, she can't be plowed or sacced to Liliana (I believe, could be wrong). Basically she just sits there sending everyone else over the top, being essentially removal-proof unless the format suddenly starts packing lots of Erases. I don't know that any builds really have the necessary permanents to actually switch her to creature mode, but with Zenith you could potentially have a singleton Primalcrux or Cloudthresher for surprise attacks, but that honestly doesn't even seem necessary.

I don't like any of these and here's why:

Mistcutter is nice vs. blue but can still be plowshared and has no evasion outside of pro-blue so it's quite underwhelming.

Polukranos is ok but nothing special since its monstrosity is overcosted and it has no evasion, like you mentioned.

Nylea is not very good unless you can turn her on. You are correct that she doesn't count as a creature but her abilities are underwhelming really.

Arbor colossus is a little better since it can get quite big but other than being able to kill fliers it's not that special.

[Richard Cheese]

Actually I think Nylea may be better "turned off". She gives everyone trample and can pump, this let's you go over the top with Thragtusk, Wolf Tokens...she even turns late-game Explorers into Argothian Swine or better. Maybe she isn't right for this deck, but I still find the idea of an indestructible enchantment that you can fetch with GSZ pretty intriguing.

[pfiremc13]

Actually I think Nylea may be better "turned off". She gives everyone trample and can pump, this let's you go over the top with Thragtusk, Wolf Tokens...she even turns late-game Explorers into Argothian Swine or better. Maybe she isn't right for this deck, but I still find the idea of an indestructible enchantment that you can fetch with GSZ pretty intriguing.

I...guess?

Her ability seems pretty overcosted to me as a 4 mana enchantment but it is a possibility.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thanks for the advice!

So I played the deck some and ran into a couple situations:

1) As you mentioned, there is some negative interaction between Carpet with Deed / Wish, but I do think in those matchups, you need Carpet to even resolve things like Deed through the soft counters.

2) Sometimes, I've found myself in the awkward situation of having a clear board, having about 4-5 lands on board, and having a Burning Wish. Is there anything bomby we can do off of a Burning Wish at 4-5 lands since Scapeshift really can't be played until 7+ lands? Even at 2-3 lands, it'd be nice if there was some way we could turn Burning Wish into an accelerant.

You can move a Zenith to the board (probably suboptimal) or play a sweeper like Damnation. I played Harmonize in the board for this purpose when I played the Lands.dec version of Scapeshift. I suppose there's always Kodama's Reach or Explosive Vegetation, but those seem kind of bad.

[Luklinda]

I can still be persuaded to run Ooze.

That being said, in the heavyweight category, I boiled it down to these options:


Kalonian Hydra
Gurzigost
Broodmate Dragon

Kodama of the North Tree


All of them have some sort of evasion (trample, flying, other) to get around / punch through True-Name Nemesis. They each also have individual strengths:


If you're looking into the 6 cmc slots, why not run huge beef Terra Stomper or your own green "everything else I have is TNN-ish" ala Vigor.

[Tao]

If anyone play Terra Stomper as a GSZ target over Primeval Titan I will call the police and have him arrested.

But seriously, what is wrong with Titan in a Valakut/GSZ list? I don't even know what is going on.

[MrIggins]

If anyone play Terra Stomper as a GSZ target over Primeval Titan I will call the police and have him arrested.

But seriously, what is wrong with Titan in a Valakut/GSZ list? I don't even know what is going on.

Basically, its ability is rarely relevant because it tends to kill them faster because it's a 6/6 trampler than with Valakut, and taking lines that set up the slow-Valakut with Titan are sometimes at odds with setting up Scapeshift (getting more mountains in preparation to make Titan triggers more effective vs leaving them in the deck to ensure the Scapeshift is lethal, exposing yourself more to Wasteland, etc). So other options for the slot are being considered. If I'm missing something, feel free to fill in the gaps.

I'm still on the fence. I see arguments that if Titan is good as just a huge beater, then there are better considerations for the slot. That said don't dislike Titan in the list either. I think at this point, I'm just going to be playing the Primeval Titan in the GP, but I am certainly open to the possibility that he could be replaced.

[Arianrhod]

Basically, its ability is rarely relevant because it tends to kill them faster because it's a 6/6 trampler than with Valakut, and taking lines that set up the slow-Valakut with Titan are sometimes at odds with setting up Scapeshift (getting more mountains in preparation to make Titan triggers more effective vs leaving them in the deck to ensure the Scapeshift is lethal, exposing yourself more to Wasteland, etc). So other options for the slot are being considered. If I'm missing something, feel free to fill in the gaps.

I'm still on the fence. I see arguments that if Titan is good as just a huge beater, then there are better considerations for the slot. That said don't dislike Titan in the list either. I think at this point, I'm just going to be playing the Primeval Titan in the GP, but I am certainly open to the possibility that he could be replaced.

/barn

I'm probably also sticking with the Titan for the GP -- this is a post-GP exploration more than anything.

[Ralf]

I haven't been playing the deck as long as Kevin has obviously, but I think we're likely to lose game 1 (maindeck Slaughter Games helps this a lot though). Game 2 and 3 we get to load up on disruption and the goal becomes stalling to Slaughter Games, which often cripples them enough to either let us steal the game with Huntmasters or angry mountains, or resolve the second Slaughter Games, which WILL end the game. I'm currently something like 3-2 lifetime against the deck in competitive events, which is partly luck, but not entirely I'm sure. They are consistently T3-T4, but we can pretty easily T3 a Slaughter Games and seriously mess that up.

I'm not sure we have a decent MU against S&T even after sideboarding. 3 REB are a minimum and I am thinking going to 4...

From my latest BOM experience, TNN is rather a non issue. Thragtusk, Huntmaster, Deed will be a long way before you are killed by TNN. I've met 3 decks packing TNN, 2 died to angry mountains, the last one trounced me hard (not because of TNN even if it played the finisher role)...

I advise you to test your list and therefore adapt your SB against:
- The revisited BUG tempo (team america aggro) is a real pain right now. Delver, DRS, Tarmo and TNN backed up with discard, counterspell, wasteland is a huge pain. It has the tools to kill you just before you stabilize. if TNN is nice in Merfolk, it truly shines here.
- Omnishow which might not be popular in the US is also very hard to deal with.
- The not so new "reanimator" thing is making a resurgence. Packing instant reanimation spell like Tin Fins but with a more classic shell is a damn beater too.

Well I guess, nothing new, we are still weak to combo, but who knows, these few insights may help you before the GP.

[Qweerios]

Speaking of the GP, I have booked my 14 hour train ride to DC and was wondering how I could recognize fellow Nic Fitters at the event.

I am still unsure if I want to play Nic Fit at the GP but I did kinda swore to myself that my first event outside the country should be done representing Nic Fit just because I am still that Nic Fit guy to a lot of people up in here.... even after I started topping events with other decks (go figure).

[Esper3k]

You can move a Zenith to the board (probably suboptimal) or play a sweeper like Damnation. I played Harmonize in the board for this purpose when I played the Lands.dec version of Scapeshift. I suppose there's always Kodama's Reach or Explosive Vegetation, but those seem kind of bad.

Collective Voyage seems like an amazing flexible ramp spell if we want it in that slot. From the Ashes was actually pretty brutal when you're on that 4 lands, have nothing to do with Burning Wish, spot.


/barn

I'm probably also sticking with the Titan for the GP -- this is a post-GP exploration more than anything.

Browsing through Gatherer, here were some other interesting fatties:

Deus of Calamity - Probably too cute but does put pressure on the opponent to block it every turn.
Elderscale Wurm - This guy seemed really interesting to me. Costs 7, which sucks, but against the non-white decks he is great at keeping you alive.
Gargantuan Gorilla - Ok, I just put this in here to see if anyone was reading and also equally amused by King Kong leaping out and falcon punching an Insectile Abberation in the face.
Moldgraf Monstrosity - Again 7 is probably too much but he's huge and if he gets killed, you're probably going to have dudes to bring back.
Nylea, God of the Hunt - I actually like Richard Cheese's suggestion for her. She's not going to be your big mana bomb, but she is more like your mid range threat (similar to Scavenging Ooze) that is incredibly difficult to remove.
Panglacial Wurm - Probably too cute, but turning your late game fetches and Explorers into a Panglacial Wurm seems loltastic.
Rampaging Baloths - Nice body, has Trample. In our deck especially, it could very easily get out of control in a turn or two.
Simon Sky Swallower - Too bad we're not playing blue since it looks to have everything we're looking for. Big body, evasion, shroud.
Thornling - Interesting but no Shroud. Still, if we have lots of mana, it can leap out and hasty indestructible bitch slap someone.
Wolfir Silverheart - Another midrange guy. Great if you have other guys on the board but not so hot solo.

[Arianrhod]

Speaking of the GP, I have booked my 14 hour train ride to DC and was wondering how I could recognize fellow Nic Fitters at the event.

I am still unsure if I want to play Nic Fit at the GP but I did kinda swore to myself that my first event outside the country should be done representing Nic Fit just because I am still that Nic Fit guy to a lot of people up in here.... even after I started topping events with other decks (go figure).

I'll be in an orangeish-reddish Mythic Games shirt on Saturday, probably with a black leather jacket either being worn or draped about my shoulders depending on climate control, and I'll be using a blue Mythic Games playmat. Also, you can always look for Kevin McKee on the pairings sheets -- after round 2 (I have a 2-round bye).

As for Friday......good luck. I don't even really know where I'll be myself -- likely perusing the various dealers looking for shinies.

[KntrellCL]

Im still playing a Junk Pod version of Nic Fit... and it has shown been a blast...

Creatures [22]
CMC1 [7]
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
CMC2 [3]
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
CMC3 [4]
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone shredder
CMC4 [4]
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Restoration Angel
CMC5 [3]
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
CMC6 [1]
1 Grave Titan

Engine [8]
3 Birthing Pod
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare

Control [9]
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy

Equipment [1]
1 Batterskull

Lands [21]
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyraxian Tower

I used to play Wall of Blossoms instead of SFM for the CMC2 creature slot, but I always felt it was underwhelming (playing 1G for a 0/4 while my oponents were playing for the same 1G a 4/5 was too much difference). I never use GSZ for Wall of Blossoms, so I took that place for a non green creature and SFM is a roundhouse for her own... but I would like to play a 3/2 split SFM/Equipment but I dont know what else to take. I also tried Strangleroot Geist but hitting GG turn2 was not consistant (relying only on basics) and a 2/1 haste isnt good for the deck purpose.

I really love the SB versality, but I think it can improve...


SB [15]
2 Liliana of the Veil (Since TNN seems to be the new "creature to beat" and works against combo)
3 Thoughtseize (Against Combo)
2 Krosan Grip (Against Rest in Piece, Omniscience)
1 Morderous Redcap --->Pod Target (against Aggro)
1 Thrun. the Last Troll --->Pod Target/GSZ (against Control)
1 Gaddock Teeg ---->Pod Target/GSZ (against Combo)
1 Umezawa's Jitte ----> SFM target
1 Tormod's Crypt ----> Enlightened Tutor silver bullet
1 Pernicious Deed ----> Enlightened Tutor silver bullet
1 Ethersworn Canonist ---->Enlightened Tutor silver bullet/Pod Target
1 Enlightened Tutor ----> SB Package

[dannemann]

So, played Scapefit again last week. Lost my notes, but a quick recap

Round 1 vs Dredge
Game 1 we both mull to 5, he goes t1 cabal Therapy on himself and starts dredging. My ramp+deathrite are faster than this, and Valakut+mountains wil.
He takes game 2 rather fast. Game 3 he mulls on the draw, and I thoughtseize his LED and only discard-outlet t1 ftw.
Round 2 vs BW Deadguy Ale (w/o Bob, for some strange reason)
Game 1 goes really long, as he goes thoughtseize, hymn, hymn, then gets a Batterskull. I wish for Deluge, clear the board except for his Liliana.
Then I draw top, and out-quality his cards. At one point I have 2x Huntmaster (one reanimated) and 5x tokens vs his Batterskull, Sword of W&P and some creatures.
He still has way to much life for me to start attacking. At some point, valakut and some mountains starts killing his board, and I can attack for the win over 3 or 4 turns.
Game 2 I make angry mountains in turn 4 of extra rounds.
Round 3 vs TES
Game 1 is close, with me taking his Brainstorm+Dark Ritual, but he can JUST go of (to 3 on AdN) the turn before I can Slaughter Games.
Game 2. I mulligan to 5 and lose. Just utterly destroyed.
Round 4 vs Affinity
Game 1 he dumps his hand on t1, topdecks Plating, and Im dead on t3.
Game 2 he's not that explosiveas he has no blue source. Deed takes his whole board. He end up with 1 card in hand, no board and -14 life.
Game 3 he is ahead, as he gets Champion+plating, but I get PrimeTime to Valakut Champion, and then the rest of his board before he scoops.
Round 5 vs UR Delver
I don't remember much, but I win 2-1. Huntmaster was all-star once again.

My round 5 opponent was the only 4-0 player, so I ended up taking 1st place.:smile: [/brag]

My list (actually Kevins, with a few changes):
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Slaughter Games

4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Reanimate
1 Scapeshift
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood

I like both Towers, but the deck need shuffle effects, so might cut Stronghold for a fetchland.
Other than that, for my meta right now, I'll move Slaughter Games to the board over Carpets(also, I dont ow any), and play a Scavenging Ooze. This could be anything, so might try something else.
In the last slot, I'll try From the Ashes, or play a 3rd REB

RE: Primeval Titan
I like this card in this deck way to much. Maybe it just does more for me as I'm playing two towers, but most of the time he just gets Valakut+mountains for a fast kills, often from a GSZ
Maybe it's just me, but this has been miles better for me than Thragtusk.

RE: other cards

heavyweights
Thragtusk - he has not been great for me, but I am keeping the 1
Kalonian Hydra - might just be big enough for me to try. Still, he does nothing vs StP
Gurzigost - I don't like it, but if someone tests it and like it, then maybe
Broodmate Dragon - Is a 4th 2-monsters-for-one-card nessary, despite the flying? maybe in place of a Huntmaster?
Kodama of the North Tree - to vanilla for my blood, would rather play Traghtusk
Ruric Thar - Putting this into play of S&T vs Omnitell sounds awesome, but still I thinking Primeval Titan is better. Maybe sideboard, if you can find the room
Mistcutter Hydra - A green fatty we can't GSZ for? Really?
Polukranos, World Eater - 4-mana 5/5's have not been enough before. I don't think monstrosity at this cost is good enought to make it viable
Nylea, God of the Hunt - no, I don't think so. A 4-mana enchantment, that only does something for 4 mana? No thank you
Arbor Colossus - vs PrimeTime. I'll take Titan any day
Elderscale Wurm - As a 7-drop, this goes against wanting to play more fetches, as it does nothing after a cracked fetck, or some other 'loss of life' effect
Panglacial Wurm - More for the lolz, than because it is good, I think
Thornling - I think this might be to green-heavy?

Collective Voyage - this sound fine on paper, but how often do we need this? Really, I asking as I have no idea.
Now I have to keep track of how often I want this, or just test it.
Harmonize - I have actually considered this before. Do anyone have any experience playing this?

RE: GPDC
I sadly wont be going to meet up with you guys, as DC is quite a long way from Denmark :frown:


Sneak and Show can't actually beat Slaughter Games, and they struggle with Therapy. Oftentimes they can just Force of Will a Thoughtseize or a Hymn or something, and then casually go off. Therapy is extremely disadvantageous to Force, because it'll be coming back anyway. Sometimes they nut out, and sometimes they're running a list that still has the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity, which is extremely bad for us, but generally speaking I've won a lot more against Sneak than I've lost. It's not a FUN matchup, by any stretch -- you're sweating bullets the whole time, but it's generally winnable. REB also goes a long way in the matchup, since it stops their "quick threat" of Show and Tell, and sometimes you can "gotcha" them by REBing a Brainstorm in response to Therapy.

Also, this is a matchup where you don't board out Explorers despite them having basics and doing powerful things with them. You also board in the Carpets. This leaves you with a shitton of ramp that gets you to 4 mana on turn 2-turn 3, meaning that we can consistently unload a Slaughter before they're ready to do anything -- usually with some hand disruption and/or REB protection on the way. Keep in mind that Sneak and Show is a very, VERY inconsistent deck, and oftentimes they're struggling to find one of the 3 parts of their combo (mana, enabler, monster). Sometimes all the gears fire and we die, but if they stumble even slightly, we're there to punish them, and punish them hard.

Also also, you board in the 3rd Slaughter Games in this matchup. You want it in your opening hand, and Burning Wish priority in the matchup is Reverent Silence (if Leyline) followed by Innocent Blood (if Show Emrakul) followed by Scapeshift. Your aggro plan ceases to exist (Thrags board out) -- this becomes a straight combo mirror. You have two combos to their one, though: you can Shift kill them, or you can kill them by hitting multiple Slaughter Games via drawing/topping/E.Wit, and exiling all of their monsters.

Hope that helps -- if you have any other questions, just fire away.

Thank you for this. I have never played the matchup, so this is really helpful. I never would have considered taking in the 3rd Games.
What do you name on the first Slaughter Games? Later?

[MrIggins]

I'll be in an orangeish-reddish Mythic Games shirt on Saturday, probably with a black leather jacket either being worn or draped about my shoulders depending on climate control, and I'll be using a blue Mythic Games playmat. Also, you can always look for Kevin McKee on the pairings sheets -- after round 2 (I have a 2-round bye).

As for Friday......good luck. I don't even really know where I'll be myself -- likely perusing the various dealers looking for shinies.

Gotta have a Nic Fit meetup, I'll be there late Friday and will be battling in all the rounds (no byes) in a Kermit shirt with a Jupiter Games mat.

[pfiremc13]

I used to play Wall of Blossoms instead of SFM for the CMC2 creature slot, but I always felt it was underwhelming (playing 1G for a 0/4 while my oponents were playing for the same 1G a 4/5 was too much difference). I never use GSZ for Wall of Blossoms, so I took that place for a non green creature and SFM is a roundhouse for her own... but I would like to play a 3/2 split SFM/Equipment but I dont know what else to take. I also tried Strangleroot Geist but hitting GG turn2 was not consistant (relying only on basics) and a 2/1 haste isnt good for the deck purpose.


Really? That's interesting because I cut sfm from arianrhod's thune fit list for a wall of blossoms. I did this because I wanted a 2-drop to gsz for that would be good on its own and start the pod chain. Now that I think about it, it may have not been necessary: I didn't gsz for it very often, and it was good but not great when I drew it. The reason for the change may be me learning not to blow my gsz's so early :P

So I might cut wall of blossoms and move batterskull to the main which I haven't done yet. This will free put more sideboard space as well. Some other options are the varolz I cut (which hasn't done much for me) and testing nylea just cause there are no gsz'able 4-drops and I like the idea of gsz'ing for an enchantment.

Some questions for arianrhod about thune fit:

-Have you ever been disappointed by the lack of gsz'able 4-drops?
-Describe a bit more what varolz has done for you.
-How useful has nether void been? (I think you talked about this before but I can't find where you did)
-What matchups is are the nevermores in your side for?
-Do you think I would be a good idea to have show and tell hate in the side? Has humility worked there in the past? Are there other matchups humility is good in?
-How do you beat omnitell (in general)?

[Star|Scream]

Speaking of the GP, I have booked my 14 hour train ride to DC and was wondering how I could recognize fellow Nic Fitters at the event.

I am still unsure if I want to play Nic Fit at the GP but I did kinda swore to myself that my first event outside the country should be done representing Nic Fit just because I am still that Nic Fit guy to a lot of people up in here.... even after I started topping events with other decks (go figure).

I don't know what I'll be wearing. Perhaps it'll be something Transformer-y or maybe just a hoodie. I won't be playing Nic Fit but I'll keep an eye out for you guys.

[Fizzeler]

Gotta have a Nic Fit meetup, I'll be there late Friday and will be battling in all the rounds (no byes) in a Kermit shirt with a Jupiter Games mat.

I will see you there albeit Saturday, but still! On Nic Pod for the GP MTGO/streaming testing has even shown me it is positioned reasonably and well I want to Angel Of Despair/Serenity Show players

One card I am still unsure on is Voice Of Re$urgence in pod variants

[Ayotte]

I will see you there albeit Saturday, but still! On Nic Pod for the GP MTGO/streaming testing has even shown me it is positioned reasonably and well I want to Angel Of Despair/Serenity Show players

One card I am still unsure on is Voice Of Re$urgence in pod variants

Where do you stream? I'm interested in seeing you play pod on mtgo.

[Fizzeler]

Where do you stream? I'm interested in seeing you play pod on mtgo.

Twitch.tv/fizzeler

Turns Poding has caused me more headaches than Brainstorming

[kavaki]

Speaking of the GP, I have booked my 14 hour train ride to DC and was wondering how I could recognize fellow Nic Fitters at the event.


I'll probably end up wearing my Ravens Jersey to make it easier. I wont be playing as I dont feel comfortable enough to do an event with the deck, but I will be there grabbing up good deals (why yes SCG, I will take a warped copy of port with no edge damage for $15. True story from Baltimore a year or so back.)




One card I am still unsure on is Voice Of Re$urgence in pod variants

I only know the card from Modern/standard (I play against a lot of Pod and Bant Hexproof before rotation I had the cards for.) My impression on VoR is that its a really good card if your opponent is doing stuff on your turn (obv.), but it also gives you a way to chain into a 1 cmc guy (the token does have a cmc of 0). I think voice is testable at the very least and at best deserves a slot.

[Qweerios]

My name is Vincent Durocher if anybody feels like saying hi at the gp. Ill go stalk kevin if I have time but I cant guarantee ill find kermit or a hooded nic fitter.

Oh, if anybody owns nemesis and could bring them to the event, I might use a loan. Ofc I will bring hostages for them.

Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2

[picklock]

Was there a thread consensus on a PW heavy nic fit? Liliana, Jace, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth 1.0 and even 3.0.. replacing the GSZ package. Individually they create more card advantage than any 1 creature as they are more difficult to remove. Spell pierce becomes slightly more relevant... but when is that an issue for nic fit?

Edit:
Reading back a few pages, the discussion of Glittering Wish inspired this:

4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [4]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [7]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Glittering Wish
3 Innocent Blood
3 Lingering Souls
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
Spells [26]
3 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
Lands [23]

SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashen Rider
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Vindicate
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Zealous Persecution

[Arianrhod]

3-0 after two byes.....beat punishing jund 2-0. Sam is 2-1, devin is 1-2. Qweerios is playing rug and was 0-2 when last I saw him.

[hymntotourcock]

3-0 after two byes.....beat punishing jund 2-0. Sam is 2-1, devin is 1-2. Qweerios is playing rug and was 0-2 when last I saw him.

Fuggin' grats dude. I hope you make it to the end.

[SirTylerGalt]

3-0 after two byes.....beat punishing jund 2-0. Sam is 2-1, devin is 1-2. Qweerios is playing rug and was 0-2 when last I saw him.

I just started looking at the stream and saw you at 9 points in the standings, so I had to check this thread :) I hope I'll see you in the Top 8!

[Arianrhod]

4-0 for me ... beat meathooks. Sam is 3-1 .... beat shardless. Havent seen devin yet

[Svknoe]

Excellent! Good luck in the next rounds. Looking forward to further results.

[Arianrhod]

Got vomitee on by Led dredge. X-1.

[Arianrhod]

Sam won vs miracleblade. He's also x-1

[Ralf]

Sam won vs miracleblade. He's also x-1

Keep rocking !

[Arianrhod]

Devin is dead, as is pat (rector player)

[Ralf]

Devin is dead, as is pat (rector player)

So, End of the day ?

[Arianrhod]

I'm still x1....introduced deathblade to huntmaster. Sam is x2...lost to ur painter with transmute.

[Arianrhod]

3 more rounds

[Ralf]

3 more rounds

Transmute artefact is tricky :-(

Crossing fingers for your pairings for the last 3 rounds !

[Arianrhod]

Beat a very very good uwr delver player in a close match. Still x-1. Titan has been an allstar today....guess he's rebelling againdt his demise.

[SirTylerGalt]

Beat a very very good uwr delver player in a close match. Still x-1. Titan has been an allstar today....guess he's rebelling againdt his demise.

Well done. Rooting for you! Hope to see you on camera :)

[Arianrhod]

Sam and I are both x2....he beat stoneblade, I lost to sneak. Never found interaction in two games including a mull to five and a mull to six. Also met starscream, who died at 2-3 with uwr.

[Arianrhod]

Missed day two....nobody to blame but myself, punted game one vs uwr delver, and it cost me. Sam made day two, though, so best of luck there

[CCrazies]

I played Devin round one in the pseudo-mirror (I was on the Punishing Fire version of Jund), which was a pleasure despite ending on weird terms. Ending up going 7-2, but wasn't coming back for day two once my friends dropped out so I scooped by last opponent in.

[Fizzeler]

I played Devin round one in the pseudo-mirror (I was on the Punishing Fire version of Jund), which was a pleasure despite ending on weird terms. Ending up going 7-2, but wasn't coming back for day two once my friends dropped out so I scooped by last opponent in.

Better than me 2-3 drop, close games round 5, but Crusader is unbeatable after losing Fiend Hunter and Sun Titan

Round 4 lose to stasis, game 2 gets close, but he slams Stasis under a Jace and don't draw decay, nice guy though and fun games were had

Round 3 lose game 3 to never seeing Green mana

Fauna Shaman and Nightmare Overperformed, Pontiff was good, going to test a second Shaman and Ophiomancer

Pod consistently caused me as much tanking as Brainstorm normally does and it well won me matches 90% of the it resolved

May fiddle with red and see how that works with Pod, Inferno Titan seems sweet and Olivia Valdaren

[MrIggins]

I'll have a full report coming after this weekend is over. I believe I need to go x-2 or better today in order to make top 64 and the $$$, but I intend to go as deep as I can whatever my record is.

A few brief thoughts going into Day 2:
-Primeval Titan won me at least 2 games just by virtue of being Primeval Titan. His ability set up kills in situations that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to get there. Definitely definitely reconsidering removing this guy.
-Maindeck Slaughter Games haven't come up very often, and when they did it was against fair decks. That said, they won me at least one game in which I took my Stoneblade opponents Force of Wills leaving him with no way to interact with my combo kill.
-There were a lot of fair decks on day 1- I played combo twice in 9 rounds. It looks like there are still a lot of fair decks left, with most of the recognizable names on some form of Stoneblade or Delver, so I'm feeling really good about my chances right now. There's a reasonable amount of Elves still, but I'm better set up for that than most since I get to bring in my 2 Pyroclasm, leaving Deluge in the board as a Wish target.
-The deck performed really well all day. I had my requisite couple of games where the wheels fell off briefly, but that is always bound to happen.

I won't be able to keep you updated with my brick of a phone, but if you are curious about where I am in standings, my name is Sam Higgins.

[kavaki]

I was there (in my Ravens jersey) and didnt see any of you guys.
Either way, I had fun and will play next time more than likely.

I knew there was going to be a lot of combo and based on what I saw, I was not wrong.
Funniest part was I saw Rd. 1 Solidarity vs. High Tide. I think it was Solidarity as I didnt see Spirals and was going in response to a Zenith.




May fiddle with red and see how that works with Pod, Inferno Titan seems sweet and Olivia Valdaren

Huntmaster worth it in red? You dont get flip as often if chaining, but it leaves a body to chain into said olivia and one to chain into an explorer.

[jbone2016]

Looks like Sam won round 10. 8-2 now.

And 11.

and 12. x-2. but at the bottom of the x-2's.

[Fizzeler]

I was there (in my Ravens jersey) and didnt see any of you guys.
Either way, I had fun and will play next time more than likely.

I knew there was going to be a lot of combo and based on what I saw, I was not wrong.
Funniest part was I saw Rd. 1 Solidarity vs. High Tide. I think it was Solidarity as I didnt see Spirals and was going in response to a Zenith.



Huntmaster worth it in red? You dont get flip as often if chaining, but it leaves a body to chain into said olivia and one to chain into an explorer.

Possibly, I think they both have merits, Olivia lets you Enslave and pod their guys. Huntmaster is instant value and create many problems

[jbone2016]

Sam lost to Elves (Riley Curran). x-3 now.

[jbone2016]

Sam lost to Elves (Riley Curran). x-3 now.

Sam won. 11-3 (bottom of x-3s). 62nd place

[Ralf]

Sam won. 11-3 (bottom of x-3s). 62nd place

Congratz !!!

[jbone2016]

Congratz !!!

and he lost his last round. finished 96th. Bummer. 11-4.

[MrIggins]

It was a real heartbreaker too- BURN of all things. Still happy with my finish. My breakers were AWFUL, since my day 1 losses both scrubbed out in pretty short order, or else I'd have tried to draw into top 64 and money. It's fine, I had an awesome run on day 2. Beat Reanimator, Jund, Shardless, lost to Elves, beat Elves, lost to burn. Again, details to follow once I get home.

[CRich3]

I'm probably the only person who still plays it but, are there any thoughts on dropping the 6cc creatures in the rector version? I love locking creature decks out the game with Sun Titan and Deed but I don't think there are many legacy creatures that can race Baneslayer Angel (not counting nic fit decks). This will also lighten the mana requirements and get rid of Fierce Empath. I'm not really a big fan of Fierce Empath because fetching for him usually wastes a turn and it does nothing but chump block. Right now everything under 5cc is just a utility creature, I would like to be able to add some kind of pressure earlier on against combo decks. I'm not sure what I am going to replace them with at the moment but most games they get side boarded out anyway. I am just not sure what out there would be a good enough replacement at the moment.

[kavaki]

I'm probably the only person who still plays it but, are there any thoughts on dropping the 6cc creatures in the rector version? I love locking creature decks out the game with Sun Titan and Deed but I don't think there are many legacy creatures that can race Baneslayer Angel (not counting nic fit decks). This will also lighten the mana requirements and get rid of Fierce Empath. I'm not really a big fan of Fierce Empath because fetching for him usually wastes a turn and it does nothing but chump block. Right now everything under 5cc is just a utility creature, I would like to be able to add some kind of pressure earlier on against combo decks. I'm not sure what I am going to replace them with at the moment but most games they get side boarded out anyway. I am just not sure what out there would be a good enough replacement at the moment.

I never really figured it out, but how does rector fit work?
I know it obv uses rector, but it seems weird that the only thing I can think of is deed and nightmare. I must be missing something obviously.

[CRich3]

I never really figured it out, but how does rector fit work?
I know it obv uses rector, but it seems weird that the only thing I can think of is deed and nightmare. I must be missing something obviously.

if you check Arionoids signature he has a deck list on there. Mine is similar to his. But everything 1-4 are basically utility cards to stall and ramp up into your 5-6 drops. Rector is just another utility creature to help control the board.

[kavaki]

Recycle?
Starved Rasulka?

Damn Nic fit has some weird card choices.
Im going to mock it up for my weekly legacy event and see how many people I can get to look at me like "what the hell are you playing? If your going to play weird cards, Nourishing Lich is a deck."

Any way it looks like an interesting variant, although I have an aversion to moat.

[jbone2016]

Recycle?
Starved Rasulka?

Damn Nic fit has some weird card choices.
Im going to mock it up for my weekly legacy event and see how many people I can get to look at me like "what the hell are you playing? If your going to play weird cards, Nourishing Lich is a deck."

Any way it looks like an interesting variant, although I have an aversion to moat.

Fit in a spike feeder, archangel of thune and primeval bounty too.

Rasulka is an excellent sac source, along with Varolz.

[Fizzeler]

If you think Rector Fit is strange look at Pod Variants, never before has someone asked how many 1 ofs I had in my deck

[MrIggins]

So I have a report written up, but it's pretty lengthy. Should I post it here, or in the Tournament Reports subforum?

[HoneyT]

So I have a report written up, but it's pretty lengthy. Should I post it here, or in the Tournament Reports subforum?

I do the lengthy ones in the Tournament Reports and post the link in here. :wink:

[MrIggins]

I do the lengthy ones in the Tournament Reports and post the link in here. :wink:

Done and done: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27074-GP-Washington-DC-11-4-96th-place-with-Nic-Fit&p=766859#post766859

Even longer than I realized, jeez. Good thing it wasn't in here!

[Ralf]

Done and done: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27074-GP-Washington-DC-11-4-96th-place-with-Nic-Fit&p=766859#post766859

Even longer than I realized, jeez. Good thing it wasn't in here!

Great report MrIggins and congratz for the impressive finish.

[Star|Scream]

Congrats to both Mr. Iggins and Arianrhod!

It was nice meeting you both and you both did great.


After scrubbing out day one with UWR Delver I played in the 149 man Legacy Plus event with Bug Delver and got 7th place. I played against 5 combo decks in a row. I also met and played next to Arianrhod's friend who was playing Arianrhod's deck, who did well also. I think top 32?

[kavaki]

If you think Rector Fit is strange look at Pod Variants, never before has someone asked how many 1 ofs I had in my deck

It was more of me seeing cards ive never seen in constructed before. I know Pod has a lot of 1-ofs as its really a toolbox-esque deck.
So I got bored yesterday and played multiplayer with Punishing Fit. I came in 2nd all 4 games. I wish I had played punishing grove sooner.

It also taught me a lesson that is good to remember: keep track of how many basics you have pulled out of your deck.

[Arianrhod]

Congrats to both Mr. Iggins and Arianrhod!

It was nice meeting you both and you both did great. I also met


After scrubbing out day one with UWR Delver I played in the 149 man Legacy Plus event with Bug Delver and got 7th place. I played against 5 combo decks in a row. I also met and played next to Arianrhod's friend who was playing Arianrhod's deck, who did well also. I think top 32?

Yeah, I loaned it to Dave Rice for the event -- he went X-2 and got 12 packs. Not sure of his exact placing (or what the prize structure looked like for that event, even).

I'll be working on typing up my report this morning, once I get settled back in a bit.

[Ralf]

Yeah, I loaned it to Dave Rice for the event -- he went X-2 and got 12 packs. Not sure of his exact placing (or what the prize structure looked like for that event, even).

I'll be working on typing up my report this morning, once I get settled back in a bit.

Trading Foil japanese Cabal therapy to a TES player is a cardinal sin !!! :D

[Arianrhod]

Alright, report time.

We got in Thursday early evening -- something that the Central PA group has started doing for Grand Prix trips because it makes the whole trip more relaxed -- we're not scurrying around so much. We got to the venue Friday around noon/1230, and started perusing vendors. Channelfireball was my first stop, and I basically sprinted back to the ATM after spotting a near-mint German foil Wooded Foothills in their case for $115 (which is an absolute steal, it's easily 2-3 times that amount). A lot of you don't know this (well, those of you who know me / see me more frequently do, I guess), but my Scapewish deck is almost completely German foil. I've put as much work into pimping it as I have into developing it, and it's really paid off. I need like, two Green Suns, two Burning Wishes, two Scapeshifts, and some random crap, and beyond that I'm pretty much done with it (even got all the FBB duals). So, when I put the fetchlands in the deck, I was pretty worried about the Foothills in particular, since they're basically impossible to find. Finding that Foothills was easily the most exciting part of the weekend for me -- not sure even if I had Day 2'd, if that would have trumped it, lol.

I thought about hopping in a Win-a-box, but decided that I would rather peruse vendors, scout the grinders and win-a-boxes, and try to get a snapshot of the metagame for the event to see if there was anything unexpected that I wanted to make changes to react to. I was also working on helping a few friends with their lists.

I wasn't sure about the From the Ashes, but I elected to keep it -- partially because I couldn't come up with anything better to put there on short notice. I've since had a few ideas, but that's for later in the post.

The event started -fairly- close to on time, with a few problems holding it up a bit. I knew that I had 2 byes, though, so after the player meeting I just went over and hopped in Rob Alexander's line to get stuff signed. One of the best things about this GP was that the organizers had set up a specific website for the event, and were actually timely with posting the pairings. I think that I stood in line for a pairings board maybe once the entire event -- every other round I was just hopping on the smart phone. Furthermore, it wasn't like SCG's twitter pairings that suck because they don't tell you whom you're playing -- these were full pairings. It was wonderful, and I hope that more TOs move in this direction in the future.

So after continuing to be undefeated against the Bye Guy for two rounds, I sat down at the beginning of Round 3.

Round 3: Justin: Jund

I made a strong attempt at taking better notes this event, and I think that I've got a bit more to talk about as a result.

Game one he leads off with Bayou into Thoughtseize, and takes my Green Sun's Zenith. We derp for a few turns, then he Hymns + Lily +1s me to make (and him) hellbent. He annoys me for a few turns with Liliana, as I was stalled for mana. I finally rip a few lands, then runner Huntmaster into Thragtusk to stabilize. He responds by assembling a board state including 2 5/6 Goyfs, which I Wish for Pulse to kill. Active Deathrites become an issue, though, and I drop to 7. He has one in hand, which I'm fairly sure is a Bolt, so I'm about one turn from death. My Top shows me my choice of Scapeshift or Pernicious Deed, though, and I have my choice of how to kill him. I elect for mountains, since he could have just bolted my guy. Usually in these situations I would rather kill him with critters (he was at 3, so it wouldn't take much) and not reveal the Scapeshift kill, but I didn't like my odds with him likely having a bolt in hand and me being at 7. It doesn't take much for that to go pear-shaped.

This game was basically my Top and his Sylvan Library butting heads all game, since we each had our manipulation early in the game. It's the only reason he got as close as he did to killing me, in my opinion.

For sideboarding, I took out the two Slaughter Games, and brought in Toxic Deluge and From the Ashes.

I mull to 6, shipping a mono-spells hand with 0 land.

He leads Swamp -> Deathrite. I'm smelling a turn 2 Liliana hand, so I call her on Therapy, and miss. I see Bob, Library, Bolt, and 2 Groves (I didn't even see Punishing or Grove game 1, so this surprised me). He plays his Sylvan Library, pokes me for one, and ships back.

I Green Sun for Vet and flashback, taking his Bob. He had drawn a Verdant for his turn, so it left him with just a Bolt and lands. By contrast, my hand was lands and a Green Sun's Zenith. I opt not to fire the Green Sun, holding it for something bigger, and pass back. He hits a Bloodbraid off of his Library, but doesn't get to set up his cascade. He passes by two lands on the trigger, then blindflips a Duress, which takes my Green Sun and leaves me with just lands. Awkward ._.

Enter instance #1 of Primeval Titan being angry that I wanted to cut it from the deck, as I peel him off the top, play land for turn, play Primeval. I opt to get Valakut + Mountain, knowing that he has a Lightning Bolt in hand and is going to hold back his Bloodbraid (if I swing with Titan, he'll block + Bolt). He does just that, and I opt to not swing with Titan, waiting a turn while I play another land. This way, when I swing next turn, I can trigger Valakut on the swing trigger, killing his Bloodbraid and rendering his Bolt impotent.

It ends up not mattering, as I rip a Deed off the Top, play it, crack for 4, swing, nug him for 6 off of Valakut and then 6 more from Titan himself. He goes from 23 to 11, to dead. #TitanMath

3-0 matches (2-0 games)

Round 4: Thomas: Meathooks

I keep an all-around solid hand with multiple Burning Wishes, a Slaughter Games, some ramp, and a Pernicious Deed. I play a land and pass. He goes Trop + Aether Vial, pass. I immediately smell Meathooks, because there are no other Tropical Island + Aether Vial decks. He makes some Slivers, including a Hibernation Sliver (all have pay 2 lief: bounce this card), which is annoying. I Wish for Pyroclasm, and reset his board (he pays a bunch of life to save them). Then I Slaughter Games his Muscle Slivers. I see two lands in his hand, and look at his deck. This guy is full aggro Slivers. He has 4 Vials, 1 Dismember, and like 34 slivers. It's insane. He has a full rainbow manabase, with Cities, Tarnished Citadels, Caverns, Ancient Ziggurats, etc -- the whole nine yards.

He makes some guys, I deed them, and then I shift him out with the 2nd Burning Wish from my opening hand.

I contemplate sideboarding in the two REBs for the two Slaughters because I can possibly counter Crystallines and/or destroy Hibernations / Galeriders, but I decide that Thoughtseize makes more sense here, so I make that swap. I also look forlornly at the Carpets, but I know that realistically I'm not going to get any mana off of them. He had like 4 Trops and 0 fetches -- not worth bringing them in, sadly.

Game two I sequence everything about as badly as I possibly can. I know that he's bringing in a lot of hate of some kind, but I'm not sure what. He makes a lord, and I Wish for Deluge because playing around a second Lord. He slams Meddling Mage and names Deluge (whereas if I was good, I would have Wished for Pyro, then Wished for Deluge and killed everything, freeing up my Pyroclasm). I also played my lands in the wrong order, as on my last turn of life I could have played Deed + cracked for two, but my only land was a Valakut which comes in tapped. Like, I literally have nobody to blame for this game but myself.

We got to game 3, and I see more of his hate this game. Specifically, Thalia, Meddling Mage, and Gaddock Teeg. I laugh at all of it, reset his board a few times, and take over the game with Huntmaster and Thragtusk. My life total doesn't drop below 11, and I end the game at 19.

4-0 matches (4-1 games)

Round 5: Michael: Dredge

He's one of those people who riffle shuffles thrusting the face of their cards in your face, which led to me seeing a Grave-Troll. Wonderful.

He vomits all over my face, and kills me on turn 2.

I bring in REBs, Seizes, and the 3rd Slaughter Games. Don't recall what I boarded out, but I know that Primeval was one of them.

Game two I make a misplay, although at the time I thought it was a good line. My opening hand has both REB and Veteran Explorer. I opt to play Vet, reasoning that I want to get Vet out sooner to get my opponent to 18 off of beats (or to be a moat for Ichorids), whereas most things that I want to REB wouldn't happen until Turn 2 anyway (ie Breakthrough needs a turn of setup, because they need dredgers in the graveyard before casting it). He leads with a turn 1 Careful Study, which ended up being his only discard outlet. If I'd held up the REB, I could have countered that and bought myself a few turns.

This is one of those awkward games where you make the correct sideboarding choice and get punished for it. The game stalls, and I actually get to enough mana to where I could have Zenithed Primeval and he would have won me the game -- but I'd boarded him out (correctly). I had a Top going, and was blocking his ~12/12 Grave-Troll reliably, but I couldn't find anything of relevance and eventually ran out of blockers for The Abyss.

It's kind of annoying how, by making changes which have improved the deck's matchups against virtually everything else, I've made Scape worse against Dredge. Can't really be helped, though.

This was one of those depressing rounds, too, where I was literally surrounded by RUG Delver on all sides. And across from me, Dredge. God damn it.

4-1 matches (4-3 games)

Round 6: Lirek: Deathblade

He leads with a Deathrite, and plays a Stoneforge, getting Batterskull. I Therapy it away, and see Marsh Flats, True-Name, Liliana of the Veil, Inquisition, and Bob. I flashback on Liliana, and then Slaughter his True-Names. Awkwardly, his list only runs 1 True-Name, but 2 Lilianas -- the exact opposite of what I expected. Annoying. Hunts + Thrag seal the game up, as they are better than anything he's doing.

Game two he leads with an Inquisition, and sees lands, Therapy, Wood Elves. He takes the Wood Elves. I sandbag the Therapy for a while, and when I finally use it I see Waste + Delta in hand. He has double Deathrite + a Relic of Progenitus for some number of turns. I Wish->Pyro the Deathrites, but then he plays Liliana. She does her annoying hellbendy thing for a while. Eventually I stabilize with a pair of Huntmasters, while he makes Lingering Souls to block / stop flips. I eventually draw a land and flip them on my turn, which kills two Spirits and his Liliana (who was at 3 at the time). I walk one of my Huntmasters into his untapped Stoneforge (guessing he had Batterskull, but not sure....he would have had to have drawn it). He had drawn it indeed, and vials in the Skull. I make a Primeval, though, and he can't deal with it before he dies.

5-1 matches (5-3 games)

Round 7: Mike: UWR Delver

This is not an average player. I meant to look him up but haven't done so. He's one of those "friendly between games, absolute focus in-game" types, which is a trait you only really acquire after years of playing competitively. He tells me later on in the match that he remembers drafting with Carpet of Flowers and Veteran Explorer both. So, yeah. He's been around.

My gut read on him as we shuffle up is that he's either on some sort of Delver deck, or he's on Sneak and Show. He leads off with a Git Probe, sees my reasonable 3-lander, and plays a Tundra and passes. Okay, UWR Delver without Stifle. Got it.

I play a Vet, which he Swords'd. Sure thing. I'd drawn another one, anyway. I wasn't sure whether he was representing Swords or Brainstorm (in case I drew a Therapy). He might have also been trying to represent Stifle, but I was reasonably sure that he wasn't running it. I guess he didn't know that, though.

Anyway, he plays a Stoneforge off of a fetch->Volc, confirming my read. I play my second Vet and I think a Top, and pass back. He has the second Swords for my Vet (which I was not expecting since most lists only play 2 Swords main). He vials in Batterskulls, and double Wastes me. I still haven't drawn a land that wasn't in my opening hand, so this is bad. My notes say that he has a Force and double Daze somewhere along the way, and I eventually die still stuck on lands. Pretty much nothing I could do against that draw.

Game 2 attracts a bit of a crowd, with most of my locals, as well as Devin and some of his crew watching for a while. It's also one of the tightest games I've played in a long time, and was very enjoyable. I don't have a lot of notes, sadly, because I was pretty focused. At the end of a pretty long game, he got Batterskull out finally, equipped it with Sword of Feast and Famine, and was at 20 to my 3 life. I topped, bricked, shuffled, topped, Scapeshift with like 3 mana floating and him having two cards in hand. He tanked, frowned, and it resolved. I hit him for 36.

Game 3 was much more standard for this matchup. He had a fast Delver, but I had a t1 Carpet into mainphase2 Vet to block it if it didn't flip, and a REB for it on turn 2 (playing around Daze). He doesn't flip, doesn't hit me, and I REB it on my next turn. Hunts and Primeval Titan stabilize the game, and proceed to take it over.

My boarding here was:

-2 Slaughter Games
-1 Therapy
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
+3 Carpet of Flowers
+2 REB

I take out 1 Huntmaster here because UWR has a hell of a lot more removal than RUG does, and half of UWR's removal actually kills a flipped Huntmaster (Swords/Path), whereas RUG basically can't deal with it. By contrast, RUG is usually more about the mana denial than UWR is (guaranteed to run Stifle vs just maybe/UWR runs 3 if they run it at all), which means Primeval is realistic in the matchup, especially with Carpet help since UWR likes to get to 3 lands.

6-1 matches (7-4 games)

Round 8: Jared: Sneak and Show

This is the guy who got 2nd place in the GP.

He's got a Starcity jacket on, he's using some obscure Asian sleeve, and he has long hair. He also chats at the start while we're shuffling, revealing that he had 3 byes from playing "too damn much," and had like 2k planeswalker points seasonal without a PTQ win, aka huge grinder. I put him on either OmniTell or Sneak and Show, primarily on a gut read that I hadn't played against either of those decks on the day yet, and statistically that seemed improbable.

My opening hand was 5 lands and two Huntmasters. .....no
My 6 was no lands. ......no
My 5 was 4 lands and a Thragtusk. .....should have gone to 4, but I mentally said fuck it, let's go to game 2, which was a mistake. I've beaten Sneak on mulls to 4 before, I should have taken the chance.

He cracks Tarn for basic Island, Lorwyn Ponder. Yup, Sneak and Show. OmniTell is more likely to use the core set Ponder. I wish I was kidding, but I really do pay attention to stuff like this, and it feeds into my reads. That's what 2.5 years of Cabal Therapy will do to you, folks =(

I draw a Therapy on like turn 3, which he Forces. He then plays a Sneak Attack, and Sneaks Griselbrand. He draws 14, fails to find an Emrakul, and punches for 7. Next turn he Sneaks another Griselbrand, draws another 7, and hits an Emrakul. I die.

Game two I have a Carpet, a REB, a Huntmaster, and 3 lands on my mull to 6 (7 was a perfectly fine hand against a fair deck, but terrible vs combo). I weigh my options, and decide that mana + pressure + reasonable odds of drawing action is worth keeping, so I do. He has a Sneak Attack instead of a Show and Tell, and I die without ever having done anything. I draw nothing but lands for each of my 4 draw steps.

Aside from the obvious, I really wish that I could have given this guy an actual match since he went to the finals. It's not like I don't have a history of beating competent Sneak and Show pilots (Chas Hinkle got top 16 at the GP, by the way, and was playing for top 8 in the last round, I believe, before dying to Cuneo's god draw on Elves). Like, even if I lost, whatever -- it just rankles that I just mulled to oblivion and never did anything.

Blah.

6-2 matches (7-6 games)

Round 9: Adam: UWR Delver

I was hanging with Bryant Cook between round 8 and round 9, and he informed me on my way to my table that he'd played against Adam before and he was on RUG last time.

He basically confirms that he's on some kind of Delver deck very quickly, as I turn 1 a Veteran Explorer and he snap Forces pitching Force without a moment's hesitation. He has an aggro UWR start, with double Delver. I Therapy him at some point, seeing 2 Bolts, Brainstorm and Ponder. He flips a Delver with a Spell Pierce, and punches me to 6. I flashback Therapy, and here I throw away Day 2. I know his hand, still, since he had used the Brainstorm to flip his second Delver with the Pierce. He'd used one of the Bolts already, so he still had one left. For some godforsaken reason I decided to flashback the Therapy on the 2nd Bolt instead of the Spell Pierce.

Taking the Bolt meant he didn't have the reach, but I just blanked on the Spell Pierce, which was preventing me from casting the Pernicious Deed in my hand. If I'd taken Pierce, I could have Deeded@0, wrathing his Delvers and leaving him with just a Bolt in hand. I mean, I was still dead to a topdeck Bolt, but I would have at least had a few more turns of life most likely, and I could have turned it around from there. Instead, I just literally threw the game away.

I boarded the same way as vs the earlier UWR opponent.

Game two is a long game, but is more standard. I t1 Vet, he Probes me, then Ponders, and leaves them on top. We each do some stuff, nothing exciting happens. I blind Therapy him at one point while he has a Volc untapped. He tanks for a moment, and then says it resolves. I call Bolt despite his untapped Volc, and hit one. He draws infinite countermagic while I had a Huntmaster's Wolf Token beating away. I eventually finally push through a Scapeshift through multiple Force of Wills to finish him off.

Game three is a simple matter -- he basically just goddraws me. I have to mull to 6 -- my opener had 2 Carpets, which I really really want in this matchup, but no green source. He plays a True-Name, then Forces my Carpet, then double Wastes me back down to 1 land (I was only drawing duals this game, awkwardly). I still have lands in hand and make my land drops, but I can't get up the mana to do anything. I could Burning Wish for Deluge to wrath him, but I'm at 1 by the point at which I get the mana to do so, and the Deed that I topdecked couldn't kill the True-Name, even if it could kill everything else. If I'd drawn the Deed one turn earlier (or he'd had one fewer Wasteland / I'd had one more basic) I might have been able to pull it out (wrath the rest of his board, then Wish -> Blood), but it was just a turn too late.

Final record: a disappointing 6-3 matches, 8-8 in games.

Of these, at least 2 game losses (1 match loss) were to myself, with the Sneak and Show being questionable g1 (the right 4 could have gotten me there), which is really annoying.

Devin's problems were also significantly punt-based. Sam had an impressive run through Day 2, as he mentioned in his report earlier, and probably could have drawn into top 64. If he'd drawn a little better / his opponent a little worse in the last round, he would have locked top 64 and possibly top 32d, so that's good.

-----------------------------

I'll focus on the deck, and less on my inward anger with myself for doing poorly (although I'm going to be seething at myself for some time).

The whole day, the only thing that was bad was the From the Ashes. I never wanted it. There was one point against one of the UWR opponents where I was going to wish for it, but realized that I hadn't left any red mana untapped, and got a Thoughtseize instead (which proved to be the correct call, whereas I half knew when I wanted Ashes that it was incorrect). I chuckled to myself, because I wasn't letting myself be bad, even subconsciously.

I also haven't used Reverent Silence in multiple events, and am thinking about cutting it. It's there as an eventuality / backup plan for vs Leyline of Sanctity and, to a lesser extent, Miracles (CB / RIP / Energy Field / etc). However, cutting those two means that we pick up two more actual sideboard slots, which is considerable. I haven't had Sneak and Show actually put down a Leyline of Sanctity for some time now, and I think that moving forward, they're going to be removing the card from their sideboards. The metagame has found ways to pressure them that do not involve targeting, specifically the resurgence of Death and Taxes.

I'm still unsure on what else I would sideboard -- I'm kind of torn between wanting those Abrupt Decays back, vs wanting another sweeper for True-Name of some variety (possibly Massacre, maybe Marsh Casualties?), vs wanting like Phyrexian Revokers, perhaps, which are generically good in a lot of matchups, including Sneak and Show. I've also thought about putting some actual graveyard hate back in. All that being said, though, I think that the open slot (Ashes atm) would be better served as an actual sideboard card, and that Reverent Silence is a reasonable cut in the current metagame / moving forward for the time being, especially for a 2nd copy of [sideboard card X].

Primeval is staying. He was fucking pissed that I wanted to cut him, and he showed it at the event for both myself and Sam. I think between the two of us, he won at least 5-6 individual games singlehandedly, where no other card could have had the impact that he did.

We're moving into a quiet season for a few months in the northeast, so you'll probably hear a bit less from me for a while. I'll still be around, providing opinions and answering questions, but the only "major" events that I have through the end of the year will be a Mythic and a 40 Duals event in Coopersburg, PA on December 7th. I think the next actual major event that's even around me at all is SCG Columbus in the middle of January. I won't complain about some downtime, but just be aware that I'll probably be quieter than you're all used to for a few months. If you ask for my opinion on something, though, I'll definitely be giving it -- I'll still be around Source.

Was great meeting the Sourcers that I did find / that found me. Slops to Starscream and Qweerios for playing Delver of Secrets instead of Veteran Explorer, though :P
Shame CCrazies couldn't stay for Day 2. I also found a nascent Punishing player in one of the win-a-boxes, who said that he hasn't posted yet.

So, yeah. There's my DC report. I'll close by noting that since I loaned Scapewish to Dave Rice for the big legacy side event on Sunday, I didn't have it for Win-a-boxes. I was like, hey, Win-a-boxes will be full of combo decks, so I'll play U/B Tezz in them, with a super hateful sideboard so I can just crush. WAB 1: round 1: Maverick. WAB 2: round 1: Death and Taxes. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.

Good weekend for shopping/purchases and hanging out with friends having a good time. Shitty weekend for playing Magic, lol.

[HoneyT]

Nice report Kevin. Quit losing.

P.S. I use Lorwyn Ponders in Omnishow :)

[Arianrhod]

Nice report Kevin. Quit losing.

P.S. I use Lorwyn Ponders in Omnishow :)

You're the exception, then.

It's a frustrating experience to keep being on the cusp of top 8ing / Day 2ing / [insert major achievement here]. I've got a top 16 (and a half) from SCG, and a bunch more top 32s, I top 32'd Champs, 4 Jupiter top 8s (when this really meant something), a host of top 8s at Mythic, etc. Just another wall that I need to punch through. Hopefully I can get some SCG top 8s under my belt next year. In the meantime I'll just settle for being annoyed at myself, lol.

[hymntotourcock]

Arianrhod, you might want to consider Golgari Charm as a replacement for From the Ashes. It takes care of TNN while also blowing up the odd Leyline of BS. Also good job on the tight playing, I'm impressed by your ability to read people.

Has Burning Wish been played much in Punishing Fit?

Also, are there specific rules for having a Wishboard and a Sideboard?

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod, you might want to consider Golgari Charm as a replacement for From the Ashes. It takes care of TNN while also blowing up the odd Leyline of BS. Also good job on the tight playing, I'm impressed by your ability to read people.

Has Burning Wish been played much in Punishing Fit?

Also, are there specific rules for having a Wishboard and a Sideboard?

I used to run Golgari Charm, and wasn't terribly impressed. TNN might make it more viable than it used to be, but I'm not sold on theory. It would need to be tested.

I think Qweerios tried to put Burning Wish in Punishing Fit a while back, but didn't have much success with it.

As for wishboard vs sideboards, there isn't really any set amount. I prefer to have around 6-8 actual sideboard cards, with the rest as wish options, but that's really flexible and you can get away with a lot in either direction. Just make sure that you have a reason to be running Burning Wish, in a proactive sense. The card cannot be purely reactive -- it has to be able to be business, too.

[kavaki]

@Arianhod: You really missed it then. I have a friend who still love Maverick, so I decided to look around on saturday. I forgot the store name (it was halfway-ish I guess between channel and SCG), but yea a SP German foil GSZ was in the case and is currently in my friends deck....

I kinda want a Russian out my deck, but I know that I will have to sell kidneys for some cards

[Ralf]

@Arian: As usual great report, fully detailed and I really do like your insights.

And I do share your feeling about this week end; we have all made game costing mistakes. Our worst enemy while playing magic is more often than I would like : "yourself".

To go back to your thoughts about the deck.
Do we really use the burning wish package proactively ? Aside from picking sometimes a TS, a SG or a scapeshift, it is rather IMHO a lot of reactive plays...

However, I do really love to be able to SB a cabal therapy, as being able to wish for it, has won me a non zero amount of games.
Thinking more about it, I'll try to put a TS main and a Therapy straight in the side.
I hate wishing for "TS" and getting "TS" countered as it is more likely than not that I'm wishing for TS against a MU where resolving TS is a matter of life or death.

I'll also be trying to run some "Kessig cagebreakers" as the card itself seems "to be undiscovered" in Legacy.
Sure, it is not playable in every deck but I feel like it could be insane in some MU as it could sometimes be a 2 turn-clock.
-1 Thragtusk +1 Kessig or -1 Huntmaster +1 Kessig (remember that I'm already playing an Ooze in lieu of the 3rd Huntmaster)

At least I'll spend time to think about the BW package as well to evaluate if our next "smartest move" could be to dismiss it.
It feels super impressive sometimes and some other super clunky. And I've got the feeling that we should all converge towards more stability rather than outstanding counter-measures...

To finish with this little personal brainstorming, I'll ask the Nicfit community about a good zenitable creature to fight back cheap and efficent flying creatures. I'm feeling that more often than not we are soft (and mainly for scapeshifters) to them. Obvisouly I'm thinking about delver & co but hell why not others.

Thank for readin'

Stay tuned !

[Kich867]

@Arian: As usual great report, fully detailed and I really do like your insights.

And I do share your feeling about this week end; we have all made game costing mistakes. Our worst enemy while playing magic is more often than I would like : "yourself".

To go back to your thoughts about the deck.
Do we really use the burning wish package proactively ? Aside from picking sometimes a TS, a SG or a scapeshift, it is rather IMHO a lot of reactive plays...

However, I do really love to be able to SB a cabal therapy, as being able to wish for it, has won me a non zero amount of games.
Thinking more about it, I'll try to put a TS main and a Therapy straight in the side.
I hate wishing for "TS" and getting "TS" countered as it is more likely than not that I'm wishing for TS against a MU where resolving TS is a matter of life or death.

I'll also be trying to run some "Kessig cagebreakers" as the card itself seems "to be undiscovered" in Legacy.
Sure, it is not playable in every deck but I feel like it could be insane in some MU as it could sometimes be a 2 turn-clock.
-1 Thragtusk +1 Kessig or -1 Huntmaster +1 Kessig (remember that I'm already playing an Ooze in lieu of the 3rd Huntmaster)

At least I'll spend time to think about the BW package as well to evaluate if our next "smartest move" could be to dismiss it.
It feels super impressive sometimes and some other super clunky. And I've got the feeling that we should all converge towards more stability rather than outstanding counter-measures...

To finish with this little personal brainstorming, I'll ask the Nicfit community about a good zenitable creature to fight back cheap and efficent flying creatures. I'm feeling that more often than not we are soft (and mainly for scapeshifters) to them. Obvisouly I'm thinking about delver & co but hell why not others.

Thank for readin'

Stay tuned !

I don't love Kessig Cagebreaker's here due to the lack of creatures, his small body will often be chump blocked and killed. I often feel that Grave Titan is almost strictly better, it produces many tokens and will always at least trade. Fierce Empath to tutor him is nice as well.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianhod: You really missed it then. I have a friend who still love Maverick, so I decided to look around on saturday. I forgot the store name (it was halfway-ish I guess between channel and SCG), but yea a SP German foil GSZ was in the case and is currently in my friends deck....

I kinda want a Russian out my deck, but I know that I will have to sell kidneys for some cards

Fawkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

I mean, to be fair, if I had seen the Zenith, I probably would have missed the Foothills, and all things considered I think that I would rather have the Foothills. I would have liked to have had both though =D

How much did he pay for it, out of curiosity?


<snip>
Do we really use the burning wish package proactively ? Aside from picking sometimes a TS, a SG or a scapeshift, it is rather IMHO a lot of reactive plays...

At least I'll spend time to think about the BW package as well to evaluate if our next "smartest move" could be to dismiss it.
It feels super impressive sometimes and some other super clunky. And I've got the feeling that we should all converge towards more stability rather than outstanding counter-measures...

To finish with this little personal brainstorming, I'll ask the Nicfit community about a good zenitable creature to fight back cheap and efficent flying creatures. I'm feeling that more often than not we are soft (and mainly for scapeshifters) to them. Obvisouly I'm thinking about delver & co but hell why not others.

</snip>

Burning Wish is one of the cards I most commonly look for in an opening hand, and informs a lot of of my decision trees. Like, in the streamed match that I was featured in on the SCG stream from Columbus a year or so ago, the commentators were like "zomg loose keeps," when it was actually fine because it had a Burning Wish. Wish is either an answer or business, and improves every hand its in. There are few problems it can't solve, even with a minimalistic approach to the wishboard such as the one that I take. I definitely wouldn't cut it from Scapewish. Other decks....that's more debatable. I don't think it's good enough for Punishing, personally, but Punishing also isn't really my speed in general anyway.

As for Zenithable flyer hate, you can run Skylasher, I guess. I think that you're better served to just run some Decays, though -- or just play Punishing if there's a lot of Delver around and you're worried about it. I don't see how Punishing can lose to Delver.dec. That being said, I firmly believe that with tight play and Carpet of Flowers, Nic Fit as an archetype overall is one of the single best answers to Delver.dec in Legacy. Unfortunately, tight play failed me at the end of Day 1.

[HoneyT]

To finish with this little personal brainstorming, I'll ask the Nicfit community about a good zenitable creature to fight back cheap and efficent flying creatures. I'm feeling that more often than not we are soft (and mainly for scapeshifters) to them. Obvisouly I'm thinking about delver & co but hell why not others.


Silklash Spider, Cloudthresher, Squallmonger, Elvish Skysweeper, Arbor Colossus, Ifh-Biff Efreet, Skylasher.

To name a few.

[Ralf]

I don't love Kessig Cagebreaker's here due to the lack of creatures, his small body will often be chump blocked and killed. I often feel that Grave Titan is almost strictly better, it produces many tokens and will always at least trade. Fierce Empath to tutor him is nice as well.

Lack of creatures ?
15 (+4 GSZ) in Scape which 6 are bound to go to the grave + easily 3 more...

Grave Titan is better but not zenitale so...out of the question.

By the time you could play KEssig I guess most likely you'll have at least 2 creatures in the yard.

[Ralf]

Silklash Spider, Cloudthresher, Squallmonger, Elvish Skysweeper, Arbor Colossus, Ifh-Biff Efreet, Skylasher.

To name a few.

Thx.

[MrIggins]

I think I used Burning Wish reactively exactly five times all weekend. Once it got me a Deluge and ensured I didn't die for a turn against Shardless so I could get to Scapeshift land count. Once it got a Thoughtseize that took my opponent's Batterskull off of Stoneforge. Once it got Pulse and killed a Batterskull. And twice it got Innocent Blood and killed a huge monster. Other than that, I got Pyroclasm once against Painter to try and kill my two Veterans, it got Slaughter Games several times to either cripple my combo opponent before they could do anything or remove their access to Force of Will so I was certain that my game-winning spell would resolve, and most often it was just Scapeshifts 3-6. I don't think removing it from the deck is at all a good idea, nor do I think we're going too far on warping our sideboard because of it- I have only 5-6 cards in my board that live there permanently, which are Pulse, Silence, Scapeshift, Innocent Blood, Toxic Deluge and Slaughter Games (except for Omni), and the rest of my cards are brought in regularly against certain matchups, but I still have access to them game 1.

I agree that if you're feeling weak to Delvers, you *could* play Skylasher but I'd much rather just play some more Decays or even Pyroclasms in the main. Seems way better than a card that is only good in one matchup, and even there it just dies to Bolt. But especially with Carpets, Delver is not really a difficult matchup unless they draw very well and we don't, for the most part.

I'm definitely annoyed at myself because I could have drawn into top 64, but breaker math is hard. I was 62nd going into the last round and there were a LOT of x-3s, so I get why I thought I had to play in the moment, but still. Can't really complain about some insane luck 2-0ing Reanimator and Omni over the weekend.

As for cutting Reverent Silence, I can see why you might want to, especially since Sneak hasn't been boarding Leylines in a while, but I think we just auto-lose to Omni-Tell if we do that, which I'd rather not do. I guess it depends what else you'd rather be doing with the sideboard slot.

[Ralf]

Burning Wish is one of the cards I most commonly look for in an opening hand, and informs a lot of of my decision trees. Like, in the streamed match that I was featured in on the SCG stream from Columbus a year or so ago, the commentators were like "zomg loose keeps," when it was actually fine because it had a Burning Wish. Wish is either an answer or business, and improves every hand its in. There are few problems it can't solve, even with a minimalistic approach to the wishboard such as the one that I take. I definitely wouldn't cut it from Scapewish. Other decks....that's more debatable. I don't think it's good enough for Punishing, personally, but Punishing also isn't really my speed in general anyway.

As for Zenithable flyer hate, you can run Skylasher, I guess. I think that you're better served to just run some Decays, though -- or just play Punishing if there's a lot of Delver around and you're worried about it. I don't see how Punishing can lose to Delver.dec. That being said, I firmly believe that with tight play and Carpet of Flowers, Nic Fit as an archetype overall is one of the single best answers to Delver.dec in Legacy. Unfortunately, tight play failed me at the end of Day 1.

I'll mark your words on BW, for now.

Skylasher could be the one I'm looking for. Punishing fire does not belong to scape.
NicFit is probably one of (if not) the best archetype against Tempo.deck but on the average, Scapeshit version is not as good as the punishing one against delver.deck.

Your attempt and mine are IMHO good examples of how we can be beaten by such decks.

[GtF]

Burning Wish for Massacre seems really good right now, with Death and Taxes and True-Names all around. Golgari Charm also seems like a great card to have in your SB if you are playing those two colors.

[Star|Scream]

Burning Wish for Massacre seems really good right now, with Death and Taxes and True-Names all around. Golgari Charm also seems like a great card to have in your SB if you are playing those two colors.

Toxic Deluge handles both of those threats better, plus other random threats that massacre can't. Specifically against D&T, yes, the cost is free or 1 under Thalia, but against elves, goblins, delvers, goyfs, tnn, the deluge is cheaper. It can also hit an avenger wearing a sword.

[Arianrhod]

Burning Wish for Massacre seems really good right now, with Death and Taxes and True-Names all around. Golgari Charm also seems like a great card to have in your SB if you are playing those two colors.

I'm REALLY starting to think about Massacre, especially if UWR Delver gets big. Nice plains, bro.

I'm just not sure if that's too much overlap with Pyroclasm and Deluge -- like, 3 sweepers is -a lot-. Unfortunately, Massacre serves a specific niche that Deluge doesn't really fulfill quite as well.

Like, it could be that the From the Ashes slot should just be a Massacre, and that Rev Silence should stay in the board. I need to figure out what else is a viable 2-of sideboard option before I can evaluate whether or not the Massacre + Rev Silence is better, though.

Go ahead and make suggestions. At the moment, these are the contenders:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction / Extirpate

What else is a solid 2-of sideboard option that you guys think Scape might want? Let's make a list.

[Star|Scream]

Oh, you're saying use Massacre in addition to Deluge? I'd say sure if you can find room.


As for additional sideboard slots:

Anything that helps with combo would be awesome. Revoker on LED could buy us some time.
Revoker dies to deed, sure, but we could bring it in against stuff where we would normally side them out. More discard could help.

Golgari charm might work against TNN, but it's only a two of. Then again it's an additional sac outlet for explorer, and the TNN decks don't appear to be running stifle, so... profit.

[blackdiamonds]

I top 4ed a grinder at DC

List

3 forest
3 mountain
2 swamp
2 verdent catacombs
2 valakut
2 bayou
4 taiga
3 badlands
2 stomping grounds
1 phyrexian tower

2 thragtusk
3 huntmaster
2 wood elves
4 explorer
2 Sakura tribe elder
1 eternal witness
1 prime evaltitan
4 cabal therapy
4 burning wish
3 deed
2 scape shift
4 green sun zenith
3 top
2 decay

SB
3 REB
2 carpet of flowers
1 pyroclasum
2 slaughter games
1 pulse
1 natures ruin
1 reverent silence
1 thoughtsieze
1 scapeshift
1 reanimate
1 innocent blood

32 man last minute grinder:
Round one I rush to recount my deck list in a hurry. My opponent no shows.

Round two:Elves

Game one he starts off with llanawar elves pass
I go badlands, therapy on nat order. Hit! The rest of the game is derp till I rip my deed
Slam it and he scoops it up.

Game two he natural orders twice and I deed his board, oops he didn't see it on the field :O

Round 3: fish
I'm Finns sum both games up as thrag tusk into deed= scoops

Round 4: DnT
Game one we play magic until I burning wish for pulse over nature ruin.
He proceed to kill me with batter skull, Thalia with a sword of fire ice and a flicker wisp

Game two same thing happens until I go to scape shift and deal zero damage because I'm a mongo.
Game drags on and I rip deed at 8 life with two mana open he attacks for 8 I deed mom away to 1.
Drawn, scoop phase.

18 packs for 20 bucks make 54 cash selling to Troll and toad.

WIN-A-BOX I cut natures ruin for 3rd carpet.

R1 omni

G1 they go show, omni, enter, emerkool turn 2.
G2/3 I rip 3 Rebs thrapys and witness.
They have no hand most of the games and I beat down with huntmaster/witness

R2 bant
G1/G2 we derp till I rip deed into huntmaster thrag tusk.
Game one drags on but I draw many burning wishes into answers.
True name was semi annoying but I draw scapeshift and exact him for 18.
Game two is me at 4 life rip deed kill his goyf, true name, batter skull and sfm board.
We go back and forth till I draw scape shift. Flash back an prior therapy on force. Win.


Sorry about the sloppy report but I'm stuck on my phone.
Can't wait to test and win more with this deck :)

[Claymore]

Arianhod, game 3 of UWR round 9, why didn't you GSZ for 2 for Sakura Tribe Elder, sac if it resolved to get up to four mana and then play Huntsmaster next turn barring nothing else?

[Arianrhod]

Arianhod, game 3 of UWR round 9, why didn't you GSZ for 2 for Sakura Tribe Elder, sac if it resolved to get up to four mana and then play Huntsmaster next turn barring nothing else?

Hmm. I'm trying to reconstruct it in my mind but I'm having some trouble. My notes go as such:

t1 20
t2 17 [delver flips naturally, punches]
t3 11 [second delver flips, they both swing, he double wastes me here I think]
my t3 10 [I fetch]
eot my t3 7 [he bolts me EoT]
t4 1 [he swings with both Delvers again]
t5 dead

Actually he might have double Wasted on turn 4, so on turn 3 I could have Zenithed for STE? It's pretty fuzzy at this point. It's entirely possible that I missed the line -- it just would have had to be at the right moment for it to matter. Even if I had the ability to get Hunts out before getting double Wasted I doubt it would have mattered, though, since he would have Bolted Hunts instead of hitting me with it at EoT. Actually, it wouldn't have mattered, because I would have been at 1+3 (bolt) = 4, +2 (Hunts) = 6, which is a double flipped Delver swing. I think I would have died at the same time.

Might have given me mana for a sweeper in my hand, though. I don't even remember what was in my hand when I died :|

[Qweerios]

@Star Scream,

Ahhh it's a shame we didn't talk, I played in that 149 Legacy+ event and went x-1 losing to the miraculous Joe Lossett. I missed top4 so I left with a bunch of packs and a mat. Interestingly enough, I was also playing BUG Delver. Fun fact, I traded every Theros pack I won for a bunch of Loxodon Smiters (1 Pack), Shock Lands (3-4 packs), Blood Moons (2 packs), and Canonists (1 pack)...

Kevin said hi during day1 and I tried to find him afterwards but the pairings sheet was always down and I kept forgetting to look for additional names before the rounds so I spent the day looking for my mates... The only time I did look up the table numbers and names, the matches were over when I got there.

I am glad I didn't play Nic Fit during the main event because I faced 3 storm (1 all-Foil, 1 all-Black bordered, 1 all-miscut) decks that went off T1 once/twice with 1-2 Duress backup every time in my first 4 rounds, and a SnT deck that went off T1 with FoW backup on r5. If I had to think of one anti-combo deck I would have liked to play (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Pierce, 3 Fluster, 2 Envelop, 2 Golgari Charm, and 2 Cliques), it was this one (I went 2-2 vs. combo on day1).

[Arianrhod]

@Star Scream,

Ahhh it's a shame we didn't talk, I played in that 149 Legacy+ event and went x-1 losing to the miraculous Joe Lossett. I missed top4 so I left with a bunch of packs and a mat. Interestingly enough, I was also playing BUG Delver. Fun fact, I traded every Theros pack I won for a bunch of Loxodon Smiters (1 Pack), Shock Lands (3-4 packs), Blood Moons (2 packs), and Canonists (1 pack)...

Kevin said hi during day1 and I tried to find him afterwards but the pairings sheet was always down and I kept forgetting to look for additional names before the rounds so I spent the day looking for my mates... The only time I did look up the table numbers and names, the matches were over when I got there.

I am glad I didn't play Nic Fit during the main event because I faced 3 storm (1 all-Foil, 1 all-Black bordered, 1 all-miscut) decks that went off T1 once/twice with 1-2 Duress backup every time in my first 4 rounds, and a SnT deck that went off T1 with FoW backup on r5. If I had to think of one anti-combo deck I would have liked to play (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Pierce, 3 Fluster, 2 Envelop, 2 Golgari Charm, and 2 Cliques), it was this one (I went 2-2 vs. combo on day1).

Jesus. Must be because you lost early and then started winning -- I barely saw any combo at all around me all day.

[MrIggins]

@Qweerios:
I saw very little combo around me battling through the x-1 bracket as well, maybe you just got lucky, or I did depending on how you look at it. I meant to come track you down and say hi, but between keeping track of everyone else and trading with vendors it just never ended up happening.

[Star|Scream]

@Star Scream,

Ahhh it's a shame we didn't talk, I played in that 149 Legacy+ event and went x-1 losing to the miraculous Joe Lossett. I missed top4 so I left with a bunch of packs and a mat. Interestingly enough, I was also playing BUG Delver. Fun fact, I traded every Theros pack I won for a bunch of Loxodon Smiters (1 Pack), Shock Lands (3-4 packs), Blood Moons (2 packs), and Canonists (1 pack)...

Kevin said hi during day1 and I tried to find him afterwards but the pairings sheet was always down and I kept forgetting to look for additional names before the rounds so I spent the day looking for my mates... The only time I did look up the table numbers and names, the matches were over when I got there.

I am glad I didn't play Nic Fit during the main event because I faced 3 storm (1 all-Foil, 1 all-Black bordered, 1 all-miscut) decks that went off T1 once/twice with 1-2 Duress backup every time in my first 4 rounds, and a SnT deck that went off T1 with FoW backup on r5. If I had to think of one anti-combo deck I would have liked to play (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Pierce, 3 Fluster, 2 Envelop, 2 Golgari Charm, and 2 Cliques), it was this one (I went 2-2 vs. combo on day1).

I didn't know your name! We were at the same tables if we both went x-1. Round 6 there were 2 judge calls at Kevin's friend's table, and 1 at mine for land drops. I was wearing a bright red DC shirt.

[CCrazies]

Finally got around to writing a little something up about going 7-2 at the GP. Tournament report linked below, with game descriptions to the best of my recollection.

I had considered audibling to a Miracles/Stoneforge deck but missed too many Counterbalance triggers in testing before the GP to feel comfortable. I think that would have been a really good deck to play if I had made that decision way earlier. So back to old reliable Nic Fit.

Main:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Sensei's Divining Tops
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed

2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run

Side:
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Slaughter Games
2x Thoughtseize
1x Innocent Blood
1x Golgari Charm
1x Blood Moon
1x Ensnaring Bridge

It's -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Liliana, +1 Abrupt Decay from the previous version of the list I played, with a slightly different sideboard. I had messed around with two value Burning Wishes main but that was too cute (and I missed having the second Witness).

Report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27084-GP-DC-7-2-with-Punishing-Nic-Fit&p=767274#post767274

[dannemann]

To finish with this little personal brainstorming, I'll ask the Nicfit community about a good zenitable creature to fight back cheap and efficent flying creatures. I'm feeling that more often than not we are soft (and mainly for scapeshifters) to them. Obvisouly I'm thinking about delver & co but hell why not others.

Has nobody else thought about Daybreak Ranger in ScapeFit?

I don't know if it's a bit to slow, but to me it seems fine against Delver/Clique/Lingering Souls, if you're concerned about facing many of these?

@MrIggins: Congratz on the great finish
@Arianrhod: Awesome report, to bad you didn't get any further.

About Reverent Silence: I have never wished for this, but I feel like the day I cut this, I'll be paired against Enchantress. Still might, as Deed is able to sweep them also.
I kinda like Golgari Charm right now, but Surgical Extraction is a nice effect having access to also

Anyway, I'll be trying out a more Planeswalker heavy GBW build tonight:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
2 kitchen finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 abrupt decay

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
2 horizon canopy
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 windswept heath
3 Forest
2 plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 volrath's stronghold

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 rest in peace
1 Thragtusk
3 ethersworn canonist
2 oblivion ring
3 thoughtseize

Any suggestions? Thoughts?
I'll let you know how it goes...

[Arianrhod]

From the annals of Todd Anderson's article today on SCG:


As expected, Jace, the Mind Sculptor was much worse in the format because of the addition of True-Name Nemesis, and I was very happy trimming down to two and may even consider none or zero in the near future. The best ability on Jace was the Unsummon effect to gain tempo advantage while I was beating my opponents down with True-Name Nemesis. Hilariously enough, I actually considered playing some number of Vapor Snags instead of Jace before the tournament, and I am confident that would have been a better choice.

Friends, we are in ascendency. If our single biggest problem phases out of the format because of a killable creature that we can ignore 9/10 times, Nic Fit (of all varieties) is going to become an absolute terror.

Just in time for page 300, too =D

[kavaki]

Fawkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

I mean, to be fair, if I had seen the Zenith, I probably would have missed the Foothills, and all things considered I think that I would rather have the Foothills. I would have liked to have had both though =D

How much did he pay for it, out of curiosity?


I paid $35.
Hopefully I get to play some punishing fit tonight and finally get some results, but I woke up this morning around 2am with a horrid stomachache (Which while normal some mornings, never that early nor crippling.) Then at 4am I woke up and my nose was bleeding.

Onto a question in general. I see prime time being run and grave titan is good. What about, if your in white, running sun titan? You can recur deeds, Witness', Scooze, Explorer if needed, Teeg, etc. and is still a 6/6 that can play both ends of combat well.

[Arianrhod]

I paid $35.
Hopefully I get to play some punishing fit tonight and finally get some results, but I woke up this morning around 2am with a horrid stomachache (Which while normal some mornings, never that early nor crippling.) Then at 4am I woke up and my nose was bleeding.

Onto a question in general. I see prime time being run and grave titan is good. What about, if your in white, running sun titan? You can recur deeds, Witness', Scooze, Explorer if needed, Teeg, etc. and is still a 6/6 that can play both ends of combat well.

That doesn't sound good =/ hope you feel better / everything's okay.

I've run Sun Titan in Rector (and most GBW pod lists I've tried) since basically forever. Titan/Deed is like a wet dream.

[kavaki]

That doesn't sound good =/ hope you feel better / everything's okay.
I've run Sun Titan in Rector (and most GBW pod lists I've tried) since basically forever. Titan/Deed is like a wet dream.

I seem like I have a predisposition towards it now. I got noro this past August and it seems like my stomach is more apt to going sour. I've dealt with it before, so I know how to deal with it, but the bigger issue is that legacy runs very late (ends around midnight sometime) and due to the lack of sleep, my data will be affected by tiredness.

But onto the other point, I am assuming that we can just go over a TNN and that it tamping down Jace (A known massive headache for us) is a boon.
Also, in punshing fit, ive been musing on how to board for high tide. I am assuming that taking it like miracles is how you go about it with a few minor tweaks, like cutting some more Pfires over the therapies.

Also, G2, on the play I cast S. Games. I assume you go after High Tide first, but could going after Time Spiral also be a valid move. It would force them to rely on chaining cantrips and/or USZ if they have it MB, which I notice those I've seen dont.....

[Arianrhod]

I seem like I have a predisposition towards it now. I got noro this past August and it seems like my stomach is more apt to going sour. I've dealt with it before, so I know how to deal with it, but the bigger issue is that legacy runs very late (ends around midnight sometime) and due to the lack of sleep, my data will be affected by tiredness.

But onto the other point, I am assuming that we can just go over a TNN and that it tamping down Jace (A known massive headache for us) is a boon.
Also, in punshing fit, ive been musing on how to board for high tide. I am assuming that taking it like miracles is how you go about it with a few minor tweaks, like cutting some more Pfires over the therapies.

Also, G2, on the play I cast S. Games. I assume you go after High Tide first, but could going after Time Spiral also be a valid move. It would force them to rely on chaining cantrips and/or USZ if they have it MB, which I notice those I've seen dont.....

Yeah, you always name Time Spiral with the first SGames vs High Tide. Frequently they sideboard out 1 High Tide to Wish for because that's a common thing to have Surgicaled/Extirpated etc. After Time Spiral, THEN go for High Tide and they should scoop.

[kavaki]

Yeah, you always name Time Spiral with the first SGames vs High Tide. Frequently they sideboard out 1 High Tide to Wish for because that's a common thing to have Surgicaled/Extirpated etc. After Time Spiral, THEN go for High Tide and they should scoop.

Alright.

I feel like cutting some number of explorers is right, but I dont think going all out is. Would cutting 2 probably be right or am I going down to a place I shouldnt. Im also worried about games being too slow, but now typing it, I realize that they may not expect me to be playing games and thus may wait for a couple land drops extra.

[Tao]

For Punishing Nic Fit I dislike Kessig Wolf Run. I know many people who also played the deck found it to be amazing so I played with it but I never liked it. I have cut it now and play Stronghold over it.

[Arianrhod]

Alright.

I feel like cutting some number of explorers is right, but I dont think going all out is. Would cutting 2 probably be right or am I going down to a place I shouldnt. Im also worried about games being too slow, but now typing it, I realize that they may not expect me to be playing games and thus may wait for a couple land drops extra.

The best thing you can do vs High Tide is something that they don't expect. If you provide a stable clock, they can game how long they have to do something. High Tide doesn't like things like haste creatures or Elspeth's Red Bulls because they can catch them off-guard. Our theory vs High Tide is similar. You leave in usually ~2 Explorers, which with the Carpets (and/or Sakura-Tribes) is usually enough. Some good Therapies can buy you time for Games to come online, or you can play Carpet, move to main2, trigger Carpet, cast Games - that's a good example of something unexpected. If you're running Surgicals or Extirpates, hit their cantrips with them. Like if they Brainstorm or Ponder to get set up, don't be afraid to nuke them.It can be very, very hard for High Tide to win without Brainstorm and Ponder in their deck. They start going off, Spiral, etc, but then they get a lot of Spiral hands without business, and it can destabilize them enough that they can fizzle. Merchant Scroll is a priority target for Surgical effects, in particular. Therapy blind calls High Tide every time -- same logic as vs Show and Tell. High Tide is the card that lets them go off in a reasonable time frame. Without High Tide, they need to take more turns digging for one, which gives you time to do mean things to them.

[Tao]

Also, in punshing fit, ive been musing on how to board for high tide. I am assuming that taking it like miracles is how you go about it with a few minor tweaks, like cutting some more Pfires over the therapies.

Also, G2, on the play I cast S. Games. I assume you go after High Tide first, but could going after Time Spiral also be a valid move. It would force them to rely on chaining cantrips and/or USZ if they have it MB, which I notice those I've seen dont.....

For my list, I would go like this:

- 4 Punishing Fire
- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 3 Pernicious Deed
- 3 Veteran Explorer
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 1 Garruk Relentless (not good but better than the cards you side out)

The matchup game 2 and game 3 is clearly positive with the 8 Discard spells, 4 Red Blasts, 3 Lilianas plus Surgicals and Slaughter Games and 4 Tops to find what you need.
Going for High Tide with Slaughter Games is usually not correct because they can just Cunning Wish for it. Time Spiral is usually the right call. With all the Discard (especially Liliana) and Red Blasts you hurl at them they most likely won't just keep comboing like a Solidarity deck. So their best shot is to somehow set up a Time Spiral with their last two cards in hand but if they don't have Time Spiral in their deck they can't really do anything.
If you Surgicaled them and saw that they have no Brain Freeze and no Blue Sun's Zenith in their deck you can Slaughter Games the Cunning Wish so that they literally can't win anymore but don't do that blindly.

[kavaki]

i forgot I had surgical in the board, so that adds a wrinkle.
My main idea was 'sieze into Surgical a High Tide and then Games their Cunning. I see now that, while I can do it, its just a lot better to hit the Spiral.

Im very good when I go into games with at least rough idea of how to play. If I can have a framework of thought, then I do well, so thats why im asking so many questions. A lot of them, I think I know the answer, but want to be sure.

[ZimAshe]

From the annals of Todd Anderson's article today on SCG:



Friends, we are in ascendency. If our single biggest problem phases out of the format because of a killable creature that we can ignore 9/10 times, Nic Fit (of all varieties) is going to become an absolute terror.

Just in time for page 300, too =D

I've been analyzing the results of a lot of tournaments and feel the same. The decks that seem to be winning have very greedy mana bases. the One exception being the Show and Tell variants as they run a fair amount of basics.

is anyone going to SCGRI this weekend? I am leaning towards playing my Junk Nic Fit list as I feel there will be a large number of delver and stone blade decks that is can just crush.

[Fizzeler]

That doesn't sound good =/ hope you feel better / everything's okay.

I've run Sun Titan in Rector (and most GBW pod lists I've tried) since basically forever. Titan/Deed is like a wet dream.

Nah, Sun Titan -> E Wit for max value.

in other news turns out Gavony Township is nuts vs fair decks, Explorer Beatdown gets there eventually

Tested a BUG pod variant disliked it, does the CA from Strix and co. circumvent the loss of hatebears and Sigarda/Sun Titan

Voice is still untested for me and Red may prove to be better than White for Ruric-Thar, Huntmaster/Olivia, Wolf Run, and Broodmate Dragon. While also giving you access to Domri or Chandra

[Arianrhod]

I've been analyzing the results of a lot of tournaments and feel the same. The decks that seem to be winning have very greedy mana bases. the One exception being the Show and Tell variants as they run a fair amount of basics.

is anyone going to SCGRI this weekend? I am leaning towards playing my Junk Nic Fit list as I feel there will be a large number of delver and stone blade decks that is can just crush.

I will not be in attendance -- too far, too soon to the GP, too close to Thanksgiving, etc etc. Also got a Vintage event to take down :P

That being said, I would 100% recommend running Nic Fit (any variety) at Providence. We're incredibly well positioned against most of the format's main decks at the moment, and with minor hedges against Show and Tell and Storm, you're probably golden. Just make sure you bring your Carpets of Flowers.

I'll also note that if someone wants to brew up a Jund Haterade version with maindeck Slaughter Games and From the Ashes, possibly some Deluges, too, SCG Providence would be a good meta for that. Ice Imports is up there, which is the home of a couple of very scary Elves players and is also the home store for the main crew that develops 12post. If you want to go deep in the event, I would be aware of those possibilities, as you can expect to see them at the top tables.

[ZimAshe]

I'll also note that if someone wants to brew up a Jund Haterade version with maindeck Slaughter Games and From the Ashes, possibly some Deluges, too, SCG Providence would be a good meta for that. Ice Imports is up there, which is the home of a couple of very scary Elves players and is also the home store for the main crew that develops 12post. If you want to go deep in the event, I would be aware of those possibilities, as you can expect to see them at the top tables.

All very true. I've played against a bunch of those guys and they are all very good players. Most of the Ice guys are friends of mine.
In fact I was there last night and a bunch of them were testing for this weekend. I would expect to run into at least one 12 post player in RI.

I feel there will be an increase in the number of UWx decks because of True-Name. Either delver or Stoneblade. which makes me agree with you that Nic Fit could be very well positioned.

I'm toying with the idea of adding KofR to my build along with a main deck karaks and bog to be tutored up by her.

[Arianrhod]

If you want to try a Knight package, I highly recommend a Tabernacle (if you have own or have access to one). It's a very good way of taxing tempo decks (and beating most aggro decks), while also beating Empty the Warrens and acting as a sac outlet for your own Veterans/Rectors/other things. Bog is probably better in the sideboard.

If you expect a lot of UWx, either Delver or Stoneblade, make sure that in addition to your Carpet of Flowers, you bring your Massacres.

[MasterHerC]

x

[XdeckX]

Been a while (again). Anyway first of congrats to mriggins. Great result.
And thumbs up to arianrhod. Great report as always.

Im wondering. Is there anyone actively working on podlists? The last couple of pageshave been filled with ScapeWish. I still love ScapeWish (my fav build) but i do enjoy messing with other variants as well.

Mostly asking since ive got a tourney next sunday and am torn between scapewish and some pod build (not as strong but extremely fun... But hard to play correctly ;))

[hymntotourcock]

I'll also note that if someone wants to brew up a Jund Haterade version with maindeck Slaughter Games and From the Ashes, possibly some Deluges, too, SCG Providence would be a good meta for that.

I have no idea what this Hate deck would look like, but all of those card choices excite me. Would this be a Scaper deck? I would guess not likely as From the Ashes would blow up your own Valakut. That could be awkward.

Is FtA any good against non-post decks? Where would it shine other than Jund/BUG? Would we not require a favorable board presence before pulling the trigger? Against these aggravating tempo decks, it seems that they generally have more of a presence by the time we can play 4cmc spells. Then again, a one sided armageddon might be worth a small beating.

Is Deluge really comparable to Deed? It doesn't measure up against Tarmogunt very well, but I suppose it COULD even up the Show and Tell match in niche situations. Pay 7, 15 life to buy yourself a couple turns. Is this revolutionary thinking? Or magical land of whimsy and dreaming?

I really want to plug these cards into Punishing Fit but I don't know that it's worth it. Dilution? Or bigger toolbox?

[ZimAshe]

Been a while (again). Anyway first of congrats to mriggins. Great result.
And thumbs up to arianrhod. Great report as always.

Im wondering. Is there anyone actively working on podlists? The last couple of pageshave been filled with ScapeWish. I still love ScapeWish (my fav build) but i do enjoy messing with other variants as well.

Mostly asking since ive got a tourney next sunday and am torn between scapewish and some pod build (not as strong but extremely fun... But hard to play correctly ;))

Tonight I will be playing a pod list that made both the top 8 and top 16 of an SCG event about a month or so ago. If you're interested I can share the results. It looked like a heck of a lot of fun to play and after gold fishing it a few times last night I will be playing it against a small field tonight.

[XdeckX]

Tonight I will be playing a pod list that made both the top 8 and top 16 of an SCG event about a month or so ago. If you're interested I can share the results. It looked like a heck of a lot of fun to play and after gold fishing it a few times last night I will be playing it against a small field tonight.
Ive seen the list and it looks like fun. I just havent tested that one. Ive beentryi g to get a GBW list to work since i just love Restoration angel. And eventhought Reveillark is not the best its still hilariously fun.
Rector+moat is still strong. The only downside to that is opposing delvers and the low number of flyiers in the list ;)

But by all means post the results. Maybe it will good enough to play (since its a small tourney anyway with like <20 ppl)

[Arianrhod]

Woo -- celebratory page 300 post. Content in the morning =D

[Tao]

Ive seen the list and it looks like fun. I just havent tested that one. Ive beentryi g to get a GBW list to work since i just love Restoration angel. And eventhought Reveillark is not the best its still hilariously fun.
Rector+moat is still strong. The only downside to that is opposing delvers and the low number of flyiers in the list ;)

But by all means post the results. Maybe it will good enough to play (since its a small tourney anyway with like <20 ppl)

While White has a couple of good one-offs blue has two good four-offs in Brainstorm and Baleful Strix. They give stability to the deck. Blue also has some great one-offs in Archmage and Phantasmal Image.

[XdeckX]

While White has a couple of good one-offs blue has two good four-offs in Brainstorm and Baleful Strix. They give stability to the deck. Blue also has some great one-offs in Archmage and Phantasmal Image.

That would imply that the blue podlists are 'better' than the white lists. That would greatly depend on the Meta I guess. If there would be allot of combo the blue version would be better without a doubt. In a 'fair deck' meta the white version might be better.

But I must admit I didnt get enough practise to run a podlist (or I would have a list of CMC creatures next to me) :)
So I guess I'll be going with ScapeWish this time (last time I played PunishingFit and got 3rd for a wasteland+fbb bolt)
Since I dont expect allot of combo so the 2 maindeck Slaughter Games might be better switched to 2 abrupt decays. That would require a rebuild of the sideboard but thats about it :)

[Arianrhod]

p.s. so a foil wooded foothills for 115 bucks is really a catch? i know that one of our stores here keeps 2 nm german ones for about ~100$ each (appr. 75,- €) and foil GSZ is about ~23$
but that only by the way ... don't know if there are some differences because of the region and stuff ...

I would snap-buy all of that. The Zenith mostly because I need it, the Foothills because I like shiny German things, and because that's an incredible steal.

Let me put it this way. Moderately player German foil Foothills are $200 on SCG. At most dealer booths you'll find NM English foil Foothills for 140-160, so NM German should be expected to be somewhere around 250-300. There was a German foil Windswept Heath floating around the GP for 375.


Been a while (again). Anyway first of congrats to mriggins. Great result.
And thumbs up to arianrhod. Great report as always.

Im wondering. Is there anyone actively working on podlists? The last couple of pageshave been filled with ScapeWish. I still love ScapeWish (my fav build) but i do enjoy messing with other variants as well.

Mostly asking since ive got a tourney next sunday and am torn between scapewish and some pod build (not as strong but extremely fun... But hard to play correctly ;))

-shrug-. The Nic Fit thread is doing what the Nic Fit thread does. We're all talking about Scapewish atm because that's what had the best showing in DC (aside from CCrazies's Punishing list). The conversation is already starting to shift back to Pod, though. Give a few pages, lol.


I have no idea what this Hate deck would look like, but all of those card choices excite me. Would this be a Scaper deck? I would guess not likely as From the Ashes would blow up your own Valakut. That could be awkward.

Is FtA any good against non-post decks? Where would it shine other than Jund/BUG? Would we not require a favorable board presence before pulling the trigger? Against these aggravating tempo decks, it seems that they generally have more of a presence by the time we can play 4cmc spells. Then again, a one sided armageddon might be worth a small beating.

Is Deluge really comparable to Deed? It doesn't measure up against Tarmogunt very well, but I suppose it COULD even up the Show and Tell match in niche situations. Pay 7, 15 life to buy yourself a couple turns. Is this revolutionary thinking? Or magical land of whimsy and dreaming?

I really want to plug these cards into Punishing Fit but I don't know that it's worth it. Dilution? Or bigger toolbox?

Nah. Don't plug them into an existing version. This would be a new Jund variety.

I would run both Deed and Deluge. I also wouldn't run Punishing Grove because of FtA, and because with Deed and Deluge (and possibly Decay, as well) you shouldn't need it. FtA is strong against 90% of legacy decks in the same way that Veteran Explorer is. They just don't run a lot of basics. Also, half the time, if they do run a few, your Vets will suck them out of their deck before FtA resolves, which means that FtA is basically 1-sided Geddon. FtA is fine vs Deathblade, Esperblade, Shardless, Jund, UWR, RUG, etc etc. Basically every non-combo deck you could expect to face. You can cast it into a disadvantageous board state, too, since it means that they won't be able to protect that board state should it resolve. Like if there's a Delver and a Goyf in play, okay, sure -- you've shut down their Spell Pierces, Dazes, Brainstorms, Ponders, Bolts, etc. You can suck 6-8 and then stabilize the field next turn. Or do it in reverse order. I dunno. It's all very theoretical at the moment.


Tonight I will be playing a pod list that made both the top 8 and top 16 of an SCG event about a month or so ago. If you're interested I can share the results. It looked like a heck of a lot of fun to play and after gold fishing it a few times last night I will be playing it against a small field tonight.

Always more results! I firmly believe that one of the reasons that the Nic Fit community is so strong is that we provide data on virtually everything, analyze it, and make changes from that standpoint. I mean, we had 3 incredibly long / well-written tournament reports from DC. Looking around at other threads on Source, most of them are -lucky- if they got a single report. Our ability and willingness to assimilate data is one of our strongest suits.


That would imply that the blue podlists are 'better' than the white lists. That would greatly depend on the Meta I guess. If there would be allot of combo the blue version would be better without a doubt. In a 'fair deck' meta the white version might be better.

But I must admit I didnt get enough practise to run a podlist (or I would have a list of CMC creatures next to me) :)
So I guess I'll be going with ScapeWish this time (last time I played PunishingFit and got 3rd for a wasteland+fbb bolt)
Since I dont expect allot of combo so the 2 maindeck Slaughter Games might be better switched to 2 abrupt decays. That would require a rebuild of the sideboard but thats about it :)

I would consider taking the From the Ashes / floater spot, and the Reverent Silence, and making them the pair of Slaughter Games, if you're cutting them from maindeck. I wouldn't drop Carpet, REB, or Thoughtseize at the moment -- all are pretty important.

As for Pods, I think that we really need is a "Master List" of playable Pod creatures, sorted by color, and then by CMC. Once we have that list, we could then realistically start rebuilding Pod for every single event based on expected metagame. Just take (core shell) and then tune (spot X) (spot Y) (spot Z) etc based on the metagame.

I'll see if I can get something up on that by the end of the day.

[Fizzeler]

As for Pods, I think that we really need is a "Master List" of playable Pod creatures, sorted by color, and then by CMC. Once we have that list, we could then realistically start rebuilding Pod for every single event based on expected metagame. Just take (core shell) and then tune (spot X) (spot Y) (spot Z) etc based on the metagame.

I'll see if I can get something up on that by the end of the day.

I can help with this, but it depends heavily on what you want the pod deck to do, like a Glittering Wish Pod list is not going to be similar to Rec-Pod list or "combo" pod list despite all list being GWB

[GtF]

Didn't make it to DC but I've been testing Pod a bit more. Still seems pretty solid to me. Like people have said, any Explorer deck with Pernicious Deed seems good in a True-Name Nemesis format. Playing white starts to look more appealing than blue if the format is a bunch of true-name decks, since you get a better grind it out game and you get Orzhov Pontiff to answer True-Name. I had the first game ever on Monday where I had 2 active Pods and couldn't win. I couldn't beat a True-Name with a sword of feast and famine + Jitte. However, I had messed up by Podding for Eternal Witness too soon, and didn't have it available later in the game to return a Pernicious Deed that got countered. Anyways, here's how I'd run the BUG list if you're interested:

4 Baleful Strix
1 Acidic Slime
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deceiver Exarch

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs


3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith


Sideboard
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Wickerbough Elder
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Abrupt Decay

I tried out Phyrexian Revoker and Surgical Extraction and wasn't that impressed with either of them. One card I've been thinking about is Aetherling over Grave Titan. Getting your Grave Titan STP'd stinks. Aetherling's a higher mana investment but it will never die, cannot be chump-blocked, and the 2/2 zombies haven't usually been that relevant, though my memory isn't perfect there.
Also considered testing out the Melira Combo in there. If you were to do that, I'd go -1 Brainstorm, -1 Deceiver Exarch, -1 Deathrite, +1 Melira, +1 Green Sun's Zenith, +1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped.
I don't even like Varolz that much in the deck, but I would go with it because it's the only sacrifice outlet you can GSZ to get. Also having it be at 3 mana is kinda cool cause there's a lot of 2 drops you can Pod away. I wouldn't fault you for going with Bloodthrone Vampire or Dimir House Guard though.

[pfiremc13]

Yeah I tested melira a bit in thune fit and it turns out the 3-card combo is really hard to assemble. Pod doesn't help with that. I guess brainstorm could make it more consistent but for the most part melira will be dead.

[Arianrhod]

Vouch for Aetherling. I've been starting to sideboard 1 of that guy in long-game blue control decks (BUGStill etc) as a control breaker. It wins, hard.

Add to this list if you see something I missed, guys -- or if you have something you believe should be on the list and is more contentious, bring it up. I'm sure I missed a bunch -- this is just version 1.0.

1:
Green
Veteran Explorer
Starved Rusalka
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise

Black
Viscera Seer

White
Weathered Wayfarer

Red
Grim Lavamancer

Blue

Multi
Deathrite Shaman

Artifact

2:

Green
Strangleroot Geist
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Lotus Cobra
Wall of Blossoms
Sylvan Ranger
Scavenging Ooze
Tarmogoyf

Black
Dark Confidant (ehh?)

White
Stoneforge Mystic
Wall of Omens
Ethersworn Canonist
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Grand Abolisher

Red

Blue
Snapcaster Mage (ehh?)
Phantasmal Image
Riptide Pilferer

Multi
Baleful Strix
Gaddock Teeg
Voice of Resurgence
Qasali Pridemage

Artifact
Perilous Myr
Spellskite
Painter's Servant

3:

Green
Eternal Witness
Wood Elves
Spike Feeder

Black

White
Aven Mindcensor

Red
Imperial Recruiter

Blue
Trinket Mage
Vendilion Clique
Pestermite
Deceiver Exarch

Multi
Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Kitchen Finks
Fulminator Mage
Orzhov Pontiff
Loxodon Smiter
Sin Collector
Harmonic Sliver

Artifact

4:

Green
Thrun, the Successful Troll
Master of the Wild Hunt
Wickerbough Elder

Black
Skinrender
Mindslicer

White
Academy Rector
Hero of Bladehold
Restoration Angel
Ranger of Eos
Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Red
Hero of Oxid Ridge
Hellrider
Avalanche Riders

Blue
Glen Elendra Archmage
Phyrexian Metamorph* (kind of)
Sower of Temptation

Multi
Murderous Redcap
Huntmaster of the Fells
Olivia Voldaren
Mycoid Shepherd
Loxodon Hierarch

Artifact
Solemn Simulacrum

5:

Green
Thragtusk
Deranged Hermit

Black
Bloodgift Demon
Shriekmaw

White
Baneslayer Angel
Archon of Justice
Reveillark
Archangel of Thune

Red
Urabrask, the Hidden
Zealous Conscripts
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker

Blue
Body Double

Multi
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Havengul Lich

Artifact
Precursor Golem

6:

Green
Primeval Titan
Soul of the Harvest

Black
Harvester of Souls
Grave Titan

White
Sun Titan

Red
Inferno Titan

Blue
Frost Titan
Deadeye Navigator
Aetherling

Multi
Broodmate Dragon
Dragon Broodmother
Dragonlair Spider
Progenitor Mimic

Artifact
Wurmcoil Engine
Steel Hellkite

7:

Green
Avenger of Zendikar

Black
Sheoldred, Whispering One

White
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Red

Blue

Multi
Angel of Despair

Artifact
Myr Battlesphere

8:

Green

Black
Griselbrand

White

Red

Blue

Multi
Ashen Rider

Artifact
Platinum Emperion

[GtF]

Vouch for Aetherling. I've been starting to sideboard 1 of that guy in long-game blue control decks (BUGStill etc) as a control breaker. It wins, hard.

Add to this list if you see something I missed, guys -- or if you have something you believe should be on the list and is more contentious, bring it up. I'm sure I missed a bunch -- this is just version 1.0.

1:
Green
Veteran Explorer
Starved Rusalka
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise

Black
Viscera Seer

White
Weathered Wayfarer

Red
Grim Lavamancer

Blue

Multi
Deathrite Shaman

Artifact

2:

Green
Strangleroot Geist
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Lotus Cobra
Wall of Blossoms
Sylvan Ranger
Scavenging Ooze
Tarmogoyf

Black
Dark Confidant (ehh?)

White
Stoneforge Mystic
Wall of Omens
Ethersworn Canonist
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Grand Abolisher

Red

Blue
Snapcaster Mage (ehh?)
Phantasmal Image
Riptide Pilferer

Multi
Baleful Strix
Gaddock Teeg
Voice of Resurgence
Qasali Pridemage

Artifact
Perilous Myr
Spellskite
Painter's Servant

3:

Green
Eternal Witness
Wood Elves
Spike Feeder

Black

White
Aven Mindcensor

Red
Imperial Recruiter

Blue
Trinket Mage
Vendilion Clique
Pestermite
Deceiver Exarch

Multi
Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Kitchen Finks
Fulminator Mage
Orzhov Pontiff
Loxodon Smiter
Sin Collector
Harmonic Sliver

Artifact

4:

Green
Thrun, the Successful Troll
Master of the Wild Hunt
Wickerbough Elder

Black
Skinrender
Mindslicer

White
Academy Rector
Hero of Bladehold
Restoration Angel
Ranger of Eos
Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Red
Hero of Oxid Ridge
Hellrider
Avalanche Riders

Blue
Glen Elendra Archmage
Phyrexian Metamorph* (kind of)
Sower of Temptation

Multi
Murderous Redcap
Huntmaster of the Fells
Olivia Voldaren
Mycoid Shepherd
Loxodon Hierarch

Artifact
Solemn Simulacrum

5:

Green
Thragtusk
Deranged Hermit

Black
Bloodgift Demon
Shriekmaw

White
Baneslayer Angel
Archon of Justice
Reveillark
Archangel of Thune

Red
Urabrask, the Hidden
Zealous Conscripts
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker

Blue
Body Double

Multi
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Havengul Lich

Artifact
Precursor Golem

6:

Green
Primeval Titan
Soul of the Harvest

Black
Harvester of Souls
Grave Titan

White
Sun Titan

Red
Inferno Titan

Blue
Frost Titan
Deadeye Navigator
Aetherling

Multi
Broodmate Dragon
Dragon Broodmother
Dragonlair Spider
Progenitor Mimic

Artifact
Wurmcoil Engine
Steel Hellkite

7:

Green
Avenger of Zendikar

Black
Sheoldred, Whispering One

White
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Red

Blue

Multi
Angel of Despair

Artifact
Myr Battlesphere

8:

Green

Black
Griselbrand

White

Red

Blue

Multi
Ashen Rider

Artifact
Platinum Emperion


A solid list. Here's some others that could be added:

2:
Black
Mesmeric Fiend

Artifact
Phyrexian Revoker

Green
Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Multicolor:
Tidehollow Sculler

3:
Black
Bone Shredder
Fleshbag Marauder

Green
Viridian Shaman/Uktabi Orangutan

Blue
True-Name Nemesis (herpaderp)
Sea Gate Oracle (I wasn't impressed with this when I played it)
Man O' War

4:
Black
Soul Snuffers (for when you're really desperate to kill a True-Name Nemesis)

5:
Green
Acidic Slime


6:
Black
Massacre Wurm

[Arianrhod]

A solid list. Here's some others that could be added:



:thumbsup:

I'm putting this list in a document on Google Drive, and linking it in my sig. That way it should be a bit easier for everyone to reference without needing to go back to a specific post.

Soul Snuffers is actually a hilarious find. I'm not sure how relevant it is, really, but I guess at-worst it gives non-white decks access to a pseudo-Orzhov Pontiff.

Edit: note that I left in all the forum BBcode so that when the list is complete, it can just be uploaded into the primer and still look nice in the forums here.

[pfiremc13]

Have you ever been disappointed by the lack of gsz'able 4-drops?
-Describe a bit more what varolz has done for you.
-How useful has nether void been? (I think you talked about this before but I can't find where you did)
-What matchups is are the nevermores in your side for?
-Do you think I would be a good idea to have show and tell hate in the side? Has humility worked there in the past? Are there other matchups humility is good in?
-How do you beat omnitell (in general)?

Arianrhod can you answer these?

I'll review the pod creature list sometime in the future and see if I have anything else to add

I'll also post my slightly updated thune fit list.

[pfiremc13]

Also it seems I don't have the permission to access your sig link.

[kavaki]

I also requested access to the document.

So I was talking with one of my friends who asked if you could run this with 0 dual lands. I know he has fetches and Groves, he just doesnt have the ABU's. I told him that it may be possible, but I wanted to see here. Im not advocating budget, but its also something I have wondered. I know its stupid, but it has struck me as an interesting thought from time to time.

[Esper3k]

Man, did anyone see Lotus Cobra and get hard thinking about it + Veteran Explorer shenanigans?

[Star|Scream]

Man, did anyone see Lotus Cobra and get hard thinking about it + Veteran Explorer shenanigans?

ew

[MasterHerC]

i am currently trying out a gaze of granite as i am still waiting for my toxic deluge to arrive (also have massacre in board, there is a lot of d'n't here as well as 2-3 deadguys)
seems pretty good even though the double black is kinda cloggy sometimes.
it feels like wishing for pernicious deed.

i'm not sure about reverent silence anymore. i can't remember a single game i wished for it so i am thinking about experimentally dropping it for the deluge.
maybe 2 "all-creatures-get-minus"-sweepers can do well, especially if u can cast one of it for free (oder 1 if a thalia is up).

i also received the suggestion to play a singleton living wish, a tabernacle and a bog ... sounded interesting but i don't think it will (nic)fit very well.
any1 having some experiences with this or something similar?

we have a legacy regional next sunday, but i'm still not sure if i can be in attendance, we'll see.



I would snap-buy all of that. The Zenith mostly because I need it, the Foothills because I like shiny German things, and because that's an incredible steal.

Let me put it this way. Moderately player German foil Foothills are $200 on SCG. At most dealer booths you'll find NM English foil Foothills for 140-160, so NM German should be expected to be somewhere around 250-300. There was a German foil Windswept Heath floating around the GP for 375.


checked my shops, only availabe foil windswept heath is english nm for about ~128$, playset is around 500 but not a single german heath. ^_o

if there is a chance that we'll meet on a specific international tournament, i can check for some foil/german goodies for you and maybe bring them with me. :D

[pfiremc13]

So I was talking with one of my friends who asked if you could run this with 0 dual lands. I know he has fetches and Groves, he just doesnt have the ABU's. I told him that it may be possible, but I wanted to see here. Im not advocating budget, but its also something I have wondered. I know its stupid, but it has struck me as an interesting thought from time to time.

I think it's possible. I've never really had mana problems with my nic fit list.

[Arianrhod]

Responding to posts soon. Just a quick post that I should have fixed the permissions problem with the Pod list doc -- I forgot that I do actually do things to do it to make it shareable. Should be good now.

[guelahpapyrus]

I also requested access to the document.

So I was talking with one of my friends who asked if you could run this with 0 dual lands. I know he has fetches and Groves, he just doesnt have the ABU's. I told him that it may be possible, but I wanted to see here. Im not advocating budget, but its also something I have wondered. I know its stupid, but it has struck me as an interesting thought from time to time.

You could probably get away with it, but to be on the safe side I would at least run three shocks so he doesn't get totally screwed. Really, he should just give up the ~$200 and buy the minimal duals you need for Nic Fit.