[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

Some questions for arianrhod about thune fit:

-Have you ever been disappointed by the lack of gsz'able 4-drops?
-Describe a bit more what varolz has done for you.
-How useful has nether void been? (I think you talked about this before but I can't find where you did)
-What matchups is are the nevermores in your side for?
-Do you think I would be a good idea to have show and tell hate in the side? Has humility worked there in the past? Are there other matchups humility is good in?
-How do you beat omnitell (in general)?

-) Yes, frequently, across multiple versions. The best one for Thune is probably Loxodon Hierarch, and that should tell you something. I mean, he's okay, but he's nowhere near on the same power level as a lot of the other creatures we run.

-) Varolz enables a couple things.
->) Varolz is a 0-cost sac outlet. The only other viable GSZable sac outlet is Starved Rusalka, which has a mana cost of G to activate. What this means is that you can assemble a boardstate of Varolz + Finks + Thune, and win on the spot (infinite life, infinite board p/t).
->) Varolz has combat stats and enables multiple lines of play, whereas Rusalka does not. In GBW, you usually need some sort of Green Sunnable sac outlet, and Varolz is way better than Rusalka for 1 more mana.
->) Varolz also lets you play "Protect the Queen" with Sigarda (or Thrun, but Sigarda is better). You can scavenge used up dorks onto her, and make her absolutely terrifying. A 5/5 hexproof flyer is good. An 8/8 hexproof flyer is lethal, even through annoyances like Batterskull. If you can go deep with Sigarda, then it's usually correct to do so. She'll win you most games by herself, especially as you bulk her up. Even if they somehow find a way to deal with her, realistically you shouldn't be expending more resources during this time, which means you'll have a grip for post-sweep to unleash. You're just recycling resources that you already used earlier in the game. It doesn't seem like paying 1G to give Sigarda a +1/+1 counter from a Sakura-Tribe/Sylvan Ranger/etc is worth it, I know -- but when you actually do it in a real-game situation, it's a lot more backbreaking than it sounds on paper.
->) Varolz can play "protect the varolz" against a lot of decks, like Esperblade for example. He has built-in Supreme Verdict protection, and can't die in most combats as long as you have things to regenerate him.

-) Nether Void is the stone nuts if you can afford one. Unlike Trinisphere (which is still a savage beating), Void adds on to the mana cost of any spell. So, if they want to Brainstorm, their Brainstorm now costs 3U. Cunning Wish costs 5U. True-Name costs 4UU (not that I recommend bringing it in vs True-Name decks). And so forth. Here's why it's better than Trinisphere despite costing more (monetarily and manawise)

->) Can't be Abrupt Decayed. This is HUGE, since most ANT and TES decks run Decays in their board to deal with problematic permanents.
->) Makes anti-hate cost more. Congratulations, TES, you can Chain of Vapor my Nether Void, for the low, low cost of 3U. Good luck with that.
->) Completely kills combo decks stone-dead. Dark Ritual makes negative mana. A Thresholded Cabal Ritual is only break-even. Sneak attack costs 7? Show and Tell costs 6? All of their cantrips and setup spells cost a million mana, too? They have to choose between Force of Will and Pondering? Sweet deal. In the case of Trinisphere, Show and Tell costs the same. Void is more flexible.
->) Useful against -any- combo deck. This is a problem that combo hate tends to have. It's good vs two or three decks, maybe, but shit vs two or three more. Void is all-purpose douchebaggery.

I can't actually recommend Nether Void highly enough.

-) Nevermores are slightly questionable. They're another "generalist" piece of hate that's good against literal anything, but they're in decay range, and there's probably better things they could (should) be. I remember the last time I played the deck I had a specific thought in mind for them, but now I can't even remember what it was. Nevermore is an okay card, but it suffers from not being a 2/2, and from costing 3.

-) Sneak and Show hate has worked before, including and especially Humility. Humility is TOTAL scorched-earth tactics, since we completely hate to see that card too -- but our deck is full of castable 1/1s, whereas their deck is full of uncastable 1/1s. It's a big difference. If you need to kold Sneak and Show, Humility is a good slot to invest in. Sneak is still vulnerable to most of our other hate, too, but sometimes Sneak needs that extra-special touch to really push it over the edge in our favor. Humility accomplishes that. It might be winnable, ish, without Humility -- but with Humility I would say the matchup is favored for us.

-) Omni is a gigantic slut. In Thune, you get to at least run hateful bears, though, which is one of the better ways of attacking the deck. Gaddock Teeg + a Nevermore on Show and Tell, for example, basically locks the deck out. Canonist is nuts against them, as is Nether Void. If they don't open with Leyline of Sanctity, you can Cranial Extraction them. All of that being said, though, Omni is probably the biggest chink in Thune's combo armor (at least, compared to universal shitfests like Belcher or TES godhands). You're going to have to get lucky here, realistically.


I also requested access to the document.

So I was talking with one of my friends who asked if you could run this with 0 dual lands. I know he has fetches and Groves, he just doesnt have the ABU's. I told him that it may be possible, but I wanted to see here. Im not advocating budget, but its also something I have wondered. I know its stupid, but it has struck me as an interesting thought from time to time.

It's possible. Throw a couple extra Kitchen Finks and/or another Thragtusk in his list, and it'll work out alright, at least until he starts winning enough store credit to get a few duals. Realistically you only need like 2 Bayou, 1 Taiga, and 1 Badlands to play Punishing -- anything more than that is more luxury than mandate, I think. I would consider 1 Bayou absolutely crucial, if he can possibly get it. t1 fetch Bayou into Therapy or Explorer is a very important line. You can safely fill with Overgrown Tombs for the rest of the "Bayous," I think, though.


Man, did anyone see Lotus Cobra and get hard thinking about it + Veteran Explorer shenanigans?

Back about two years ago, it was in some of my very very first sketches of Nic Fit. It proved to be win-more, so I cut it, but I do wonder sometimes if there isn't like a Nic Fit version of 12post / Eldrazi Green that could be made with it. Cobra + Explorer gives you a metric shitfuck of mana.

Example, a realistic opener without Tower or multiple Vets:

t1 land, Therapy
t2 land, Cobra
t3 land, Explorer, flashback (tap 3 lands, 2 floating from landfall, then tap 2 more from Explorer lands) yields 7 mana on turn 3. Zenith for Primeval, use floating mana to play Top + spin Top? Eh? Eh? Eh?


i am currently trying out a gaze of granite as i am still waiting for my toxic deluge to arrive (also have massacre in board, there is a lot of d'n't here as well as 2-3 deadguys)
seems pretty good even though the double black is kinda cloggy sometimes.
it feels like wishing for pernicious deed.

i'm not sure about reverent silence anymore. i can't remember a single game i wished for it so i am thinking about experimentally dropping it for the deluge.
maybe 2 "all-creatures-get-minus"-sweepers can do well, especially if u can cast one of it for free (oder 1 if a thalia is up).

i also received the suggestion to play a singleton living wish, a tabernacle and a bog ... sounded interesting but i don't think it will (nic)fit very well.
any1 having some experiences with this or something similar?

we have a legacy regional next sunday, but i'm still not sure if i can be in attendance, we'll see.




checked my shops, only availabe foil windswept heath is english nm for about ~128$, playset is around 500 but not a single german heath. ^_o

if there is a chance that we'll meet on a specific international tournament, i can check for some foil/german goodies for you and maybe bring them with me. :D

I've thought about the whole "wish for a wish" bullshit before, but I just can't justify spending that much mana to get a utility land -- and the utility land isn't even necessarily that great for Scape. Tabernacle is much better in GBW versions, because those colors care more about the sac outlet / having more control in the matchup.

And that would be freaking sweet. I don't really fly, though, so it'd probably have to be like for the next legacy Grand Prix here or something similar. I'm terrified of flying :X 128 is still pretty good for a packfoil nm Heath, though -- they're like 150-160 over here last I checked.

[Nithkar]

Sorry for the noobish question, but can someone pierce cabal therapy with explorer effect on the stack? I think they can, but i'm not sure...

[Arianrhod]

Sorry for the noobish question, but can someone pierce cabal therapy with explorer effect on the stack? I think they can, but i'm not sure...

They can, in fact. It doesn't come up very often, but this is a thing that can happen to you.

[UseLess]

I would like to add Consecrated Sphinx to the blue six-drops, it is absolute nuts once it hits the field and I have not lost many games after I drew some extra cards from it. Next Saturday I will have a local tournament again. I'm going to test a controlish BUGfit deck with a True-Name Nemesis as one-off, I'm curious how it will perform. Will keep you posted.

[hymntotourcock]

I don't play PodFit, but here are some creature ideas for you kiddies to knock around. My apologies if they've been covered and/or are lackluster:

1CMC
Doomed Traveler

2CMC
Abyssal Gatekeeper
Nest Invader

3CMC
Flickerwisp
Blade Splicer
Sin Collector

4CMC
Ranger of Eos
Solemn Simulacrum
Mindslicer (one of my favorite cards ever)

[Arianrhod]

I don't play PodFit, but here are some creature ideas for you kiddies to knock around. My apologies if they've been covered and/or are lackluster:

1CMC
Doomed Traveler

2CMC
Abyssal Gatekeeper
Nest Invader

3CMC
Flickerwisp
Blade Splicer
Sin Collector

4CMC
Ranger of Eos
Solemn Simulacrum
Mindslicer (one of my favorite cards ever)

Abyssal Gatekeeper is fuckin spicy. I like it.

Added Gatekeeper, Nest Invader, Flickerwisp, and Blade Splicer. Had the others already.

[KntrellCL]

I can help with this, but it depends heavily on what you want the pod deck to do, like a Glittering Wish Pod list is not going to be similar to Rec-Pod list or "combo" pod list despite all list being GWB

Here's my BGw POD list... it has been working pretty well

Creatures [23]
CMC 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

CMC 2
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze

CMC 3
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone Shredder

CMC 4
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Restoration Angel

CMC 5
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw

CMC 6
1 Grave Titan

Engine [8]
3 Birthing Pod
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare

Control [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy

Artifacts [2]
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Lands [21]
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyraxian Tower

[MasterHerC]

this is my sideboard for now, will test it at the next possible stop (maybe sunday)
scapewish, obviously (or of course? ... :D )

3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Slaughter Games
1x Scapeshift
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Reanimate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pyroclasm
1x Massacre
1x Gaze of Granite
1x Toxic Deluge (if it will arrive in time), else 1x flexslot, but don't think Reverent Silence will fit in it this time.

i'm kinda excited if i will miss silence (as i never really missed it all the time)
have that strange feeling that having a bunch of those sweepers is really good in my local format, now that a bunch of nemesis-decks joined the scene to the already popular d'n'ts here.




I've thought about the whole "wish for a wish" bullshit before, but I just can't justify spending that much mana to get a utility land -- and the utility land isn't even necessarily that great for Scape. Tabernacle is much better in GBW versions, because those colors care more about the sac outlet / having more control in the matchup.

And that would be freaking sweet. I don't really fly, though, so it'd probably have to be like for the next legacy Grand Prix here or something similar. I'm terrified of flying :X 128 is still pretty good for a packfoil nm Heath, though -- they're like 150-160 over here last I checked.

ya, i think that it's a waste of space u need for better things.

oh i definitely plan to attend a us-gp at least once in a lifetime. time will ... show and tell ... when and where. :D
or maybe a longer holiday trip with some scg-visits. ^^
but i'll let you know when it is possible for me.



I also requested access to the document.

So I was talking with one of my friends who asked if you could run this with 0 dual lands. I know he has fetches and Groves, he just doesnt have the ABU's. I told him that it may be possible, but I wanted to see here. Im not advocating budget, but its also something I have wondered. I know its stupid, but it has struck me as an interesting thought from time to time.

i did it.
had only 2 taigas so i upped each basic land by 1 and filled with stomping grounds, blood crypts and overgrown tombs.
whoppa selfdestruct-style ... but it worked.
u are just turning some clocks down a turn if u need to shock but it's easier to pay 2 life than a difference of ~45 or more $ per dual.

[DireLemming]

Some more Pod candidates:

Meddling Mage
Peacekeeper
Triskellion (there is an obscure infinite combo with Reveillark, Phantasmal Image and Triskellion)
Yosei
Corpse Connoisseur (if you play Rector + Nightmare and want to pod directly from 4 to 6 or as a pseudo tutor)

p.s. @Arianrhod maybe enable comments in the gdoc, so we can leave suggestions there instead of polluting this thread.

[hymntotourcock]

Abyssal Gatekeeper is fuckin spicy. I like it.


Heck yeah it is, that card's an old gem from when I played Pauper Pestilence :D

Here are some more neato Pod dudes:

2
Bloodghast

3
Necroplasm
Necrotic Sliver (ehh)
Phyrexian Rager
Geralf's Messenger

5
Phyrexian Delver
Karmic Guide

6
Duplicant
Kokusho

7
Hornet Queen

[hymntotourcock]

I don't mean to spam the board, but with all this talk of MB combo hate, I edited my PFit list which I plan to bring this to a local legacy event in about 2 weeks. I'd like to iron it out before then.
The main changes are adding 2 Slaughter Games to MB and Toxic Deluge to the SB. I figure it can act as a 4th Deed, and I've been considering adding a second. There is much combo going on at my lgs but not so much that I'm able to rule out rogue aggro decks. These Storm pricks often make me wish I was playing Scapeshift.
I have 61 cards MB, the 61st being Thoughtseize to supplement the combo-interference. 1 black mana shouldn't throw my curve enough to make a difference.

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Games

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

Edit: I forgot my friggin Carpets.

[Fizzeler]

Arianrhod it seems you forgot Karmic Guide as a 5 drop, I tested it and ran it at the GP decent and can let you advance the board quickly

Also Voice Of Resurgence in 2, it was okay when I tried it good vs other fair decks

My current Junk list:
4 Marsh Flats
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
2 Swamp
1 Sun Titan
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gavony Township
1 Karakas
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Birthing Pod
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Grave Titan
2 Eternal Witness
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Restoration Angel
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Plains
1 Orzhov Pontiff
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bayou
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Forest
1 Thragtusk

Sideboard
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Angel of Despair
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless

In other news Township is insane

Grave Titan has been feeling very underwhelming compared to Sun Titan, I want to test another 6 Drop that isn't a titan and am between Yosei and Wurmcoil

[ZimAshe]

So after playing a few games with this list here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60221) I came to some conclusions. Bear in mind that I love me some birthing pod decks. I played a lot of it in standard and would play kik pod in modern if I had the cards to do so.

I feel like this deck runs into a lot of the same issues most pod decks have, unless there is a resolved pod on the field it just becomes a mass of creatures that are kind of awkward to draw when drawn in the wrong situations. Part of me really wants to make this a 4 or 5 color deck and run things like Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch, and Zealous Conscripts. One of the things that I feel could be improved about this list is the ability to go up the chain in a single turn. I understand that adding another color or two means fixing the mana base with more duals which then makes our Veteran Explorers weaker. I might be an avenue to explore however. Possibly substituting some of the Deathrite Shamans with Noble Hierarchs or Birds of Paradise could be an path worth examining.

The other minor issue I had with the deck was the one of Abrupt Decay. I know its a strong card but it seems that it might be better suited as a fourth Brainstorm a third Pernicious Deed, or even possibly a fourth Birthing Pod for a better chance of getting it in the opener. Brainstorm is kind of insane in this deck due to the amount of shuffle effects that are available. The ability to put creatures back into the deck that you might have drawn and then pod into them is bonkers for lack of a better term.

These are just a few of my thoughts about this list in particular. I will say this though, the deck is super fun to play and I recommend picking it up and giving it a whirl.

[EDIT]: I also forgot to mention about the possible addition of Phyrexian Metamorph in either the Main or the side board.

[pfiremc13]

-) Yes, frequently, across multiple versions. The best one for Thune is probably Loxodon Hierarch, and that should tell you something. I mean, he's okay, but he's nowhere near on the same power level as a lot of the other creatures we run.

Hmm, yeah. Testing nylea maybe?



->) Varolz is a 0-cost sac outlet. The only other viable GSZable sac outlet is Starved Rusalka, which has a mana cost of G to activate. What this means is that you can assemble a boardstate of Varolz + Finks + Thune, and win on the spot (infinite life, infinite board p/t).

I didn't notice that combo. However, a 3-card combo with 2 1-ofs and a 2-of is hard to assemble, even with 6 tutors.



In GBW, you usually need some sort of Green Sunnable sac outlet

I disagree. 6 sac outlets is generally enough, in addition to chump blocking vs. aggro. Varolz is 4 mana, which generally means you'll have to wait until turn 4 to sac explorer if you have just that and green sun. It's really not worth it. I'd much rather just gsz for dryad arbor if I really needed the ramp (which, by the way, has been awesome for me).



->) Varolz also lets you play "Protect the Queen" with Sigarda (or Thrun, but Sigarda is better). You can scavenge used up dorks onto her, and make her absolutely terrifying. A 5/5 hexproof flyer is good. An 8/8 hexproof flyer is lethal, even through annoyances like Batterskull. If you can go deep with Sigarda, then it's usually correct to do so. She'll win you most games by herself, especially as you bulk her up. Even if they somehow find a way to deal with her, realistically you shouldn't be expending more resources during this time, which means you'll have a grip for post-sweep to unleash. You're just recycling resources that you already used earlier in the game. It doesn't seem like paying 1G to give Sigarda a +1/+1 counter from a Sakura-Tribe/Sylvan Ranger/etc is worth it, I know -- but when you actually do it in a real-game situation, it's a lot more backbreaking than it sounds on paper.

I have actually done this, and it's good but usually I lack creatures in my yard. Usually there's like an explorer or an arbor but giving sigarda +1/+1 is not really worth putting varolz in your deck.



->) Varolz can play "protect the varolz" against a lot of decks, like Esperblade for example. He has built-in Supreme Verdict protection, and can't die in most combats as long as you have things to regenerate him.

That's cool but what does he do just by himself?



-) Nether Void is the stone nuts if you can afford one. Unlike Trinisphere (which is still a savage beating), Void adds on to the mana cost of any spell. So, if they want to Brainstorm, their Brainstorm now costs 3U. Cunning Wish costs 5U. True-Name costs 4UU (not that I recommend bringing it in vs True-Name decks). And so forth. Here's why it's better than Trinisphere despite costing more (monetarily and manawise)

->) Can't be Abrupt Decayed. This is HUGE, since most ANT and TES decks run Decays in their board to deal with problematic permanents.
->) Makes anti-hate cost more. Congratulations, TES, you can Chain of Vapor my Nether Void, for the low, low cost of 3U. Good luck with that.
->) Completely kills combo decks stone-dead. Dark Ritual makes negative mana. A Thresholded Cabal Ritual is only break-even. Sneak attack costs 7? Show and Tell costs 6? All of their cantrips and setup spells cost a million mana, too? They have to choose between Force of Will and Pondering? Sweet deal. In the case of Trinisphere, Show and Tell costs the same. Void is more flexible.
->) Useful against -any- combo deck. This is a problem that combo hate tends to have. It's good vs two or three decks, maybe, but shit vs two or three more. Void is all-purpose douchebaggery.

I can't actually recommend Nether Void highly enough.

The problem I have is against TES you need other disruption for it to work because it's not coming down before t3 unless you get a tower draw.

I'll respond to other stuff later.

[hymntotourcock]

The problem I have is against TES you need other disruption for it to work because it's not coming down before t3 unless you get a tower draw.


This is the universal TES problem. Surviving to 4 mana is our main goal (unless running Trinisphere). For JundFit, Slaughter Games is our de facto Nether Void. That's our silver bullet and in this application I feel it's even stronger than Void. Because you don't have access to red mana Void is probably the next best thing (or Cranial Extraction/Memoricide). Which is a hilarious thing to consider because Games is ~$1 and Void is ~$150.

I did some testing against ANT last night and I still don't know how to mulligan effectively against storm. Opening up with Carpet/REB is not enough as they don't necessarily need blue spells to win. In fact my roommate combo'd a few times with Rituals/LED/Infernal Tutor. Monoblack storm?
Another thing I noticed was turn 1 SDT being awesome, especially when playing around Duress. I was able to keep my hate cards floating around the top 3 of my library to grab at a moment's notice. This is niche application but a valid point no less. Also if they have a turn 1 win you're fucked regardless but that isn't exactly breaking news.
Sadistic Sacrament could also be a card to consider. It's BBB but it has the potential to grab every combo piece at once and they usually only play 1 of each.


I've been thinking about Pod more, is Lodestone Golem viable? I can easily imagine a MUD-flavored Pod prototype doing ugly things. There's already a heft of artifact creatures as well.
Turn 1 Explorer
Turn 2 Phyrexian Tower -> Lodestone?

It sure looks cute.

[Ralf]

I don't mean to spam the board, but with all this talk of MB combo hate, I edited my PFit list which I plan to bring this to a local legacy event in about 2 weeks. I'd like to iron it out before then.
The main changes are adding 2 Slaughter Games to MB and Toxic Deluge to the SB. I figure it can act as a 4th Deed, and I've been considering adding a second. There is much combo going on at my lgs but not so much that I'm able to rule out rogue aggro decks. These Storm pricks often make me wish I was playing Scapeshift.
I have 61 cards MB, the 61st being Thoughtseize to supplement the combo-interference. 1 black mana shouldn't throw my curve enough to make a difference.

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Games

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

Edit: I forgot my friggin Carpets.

I'm counting 62 cards MD ! I'm unsure you really want Slaughter MD. This is not scape (1 less land 4 less creature which provide lands on ETB or ETG) and I'm afraid you are greedy about the average CMC going up...
To fight TES -> Chalice is one of your best shots.

[kravkenov]

Hi Folks,

I just read the past few pages (hum, 50... Or so), and I really had a good feeling with this deck, even with the lack of blue. Nic Fit seems to be a good alternative to my heart-deck, Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils :)

Back in the business :
Scapeshift and Valakut couple is cool, it looks like a very solid kill condition.
Green Sun Zenith is a fantastic card, I love to tutor my library (ok, just my green creatures).
After some goldfish, Primeval Titan is huge. It end the game very quickly by searching for Valakut and mountains.

Enough of paroles, here is my list (not really mine, but eh, who care :)

//Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creature (14)
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves

//Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

//Sorcery (16)
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift

//Land (24)
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Rakdos's Return
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Some questions and remarques about the deck that didn't find answer in the first/last few pages.

I feel a lack of shuffle effect. Does any body know how to fulfill this gap ?
Second, Huntmaster of the Fells and me aren't in good feelings. I don't know why.
Is Huntmaster a key-card for Nic Fit ? When and how to play it at its maximum efficiency.


For now, I play the deck like this :
First goal is to resolve Veteran Explorer or let say, put lands into the field.
Second is to mess opponent board/strategy with either GSZ into Scavenging Ooze, Pernicious Deed or BWinshing into focused answer.
Third (the killing phase) GSZ into Primeval Titan or Scapeshifting into Valakut.

Am I on the good way or is there something I am missing ?


PS: This threat is good, the primer is well writted and tournaments reports are detailed.
PS2 : My English isn't that good, please apologize misspelling and wrong sentences :))

[Ralf]

This is the universal TES problem. Surviving to 4 mana is our main goal (unless running Trinisphere). For JundFit, Slaughter Games is our de facto Nether Void. That's our silver bullet and in this application I feel it's even stronger than Void. Because you don't have access to red mana Void is probably the next best thing (or Cranial Extraction/Memoricide). Which is a hilarious thing to consider because Games is ~$1 and Void is ~$150.

I did some testing against ANT last night and I still don't know how to mulligan effectively against storm. Opening up with Carpet/REB is not enough as they don't necessarily need blue spells to win. In fact my roommate combo'd a few times with Rituals/LED/Infernal Tutor. Monoblack storm?
Another thing I noticed was turn 1 SDT being awesome, especially when playing around Duress. I was able to keep my hate cards floating around the top 3 of my library to grab at a moment's notice. This is niche application but a valid point no less. Also if they have a turn 1 win you're fucked regardless but that isn't exactly breaking news.
Sadistic Sacrament could also be a card to consider. It's BBB but it has the potential to grab every combo piece at once and they usually only play 1 of each.


I've been thinking about Pod more, is Lodestone Golem viable? I can easily imagine a MUD-flavored Pod prototype doing ugly things. There's already a heft of artifact creatures as well.
Turn 1 Explorer
Turn 2 Phyrexian Tower -> Lodestone?

It sure looks cute.

My meta is "somehow" infested with ANT. Slower than TES, but more resilient.
So, I guess I can give you some useful tips:

Game 1 =
-> your first zenith should always be for "Ooze". MVP against ANT. Be sure to take cantrips/mana accel from their yard. By doing so, you are crushing hard their PIF plan.
-> don't accelerate into flashback therapy on Veteran if it is not to put a good clock on them and/or having seen their hand. Most list plays at least 2 basics (even 3).
-> Discards should target IT/DR/CR/LED depends of the board and their hand (Also BW depends on the ANT build).

They cannot kill "Ooze" first game. So cross fingers...

Game 2 = Same plan. Board in Surgical Ex, REB, TS, Slaughter. Take out Titan, Thrun, Pernicious deed (keep 2 in if BW build or if you saw ETW and side out the whole PF engine), AD, 1 Kessig and 2 PF.

They will likely have some AD/Pyro for Ooze so drop it wisely. Cross finger again.
Thragtusk is also good against chain of vapor as it will leave a token behind (don't forget it !)

[Ralf]

Hi Folks,

Some questions and remarques about the deck that didn't find answer in the first/last few pages.

I feel a lack of shuffle effect. Does any body know how to fulfill this gap ?
Second, Huntmaster of the Fells and me aren't in good feelings. I don't know why.
Is Huntmaster a key-card for Nic Fit ? When and how to play it at its maximum efficiency.


For now, I play the deck like this :
First goal is to resolve Veteran Explorer or let say, put lands into the field.
Second is to mess opponent board/strategy with either GSZ into Scavenging Ooze, Pernicious Deed or BWinshing into focused answer.
Third (the killing phase) GSZ into Primeval Titan or Scapeshifting into Valakut.

Am I no the good way or is there something I am missing ?

1) Cut a basic mountain add a wooded foothills. Add a Sakura tribe-elder and go to 61 cards MD. So you'll have 2 more ways to shuffle the library.
2) I'm also playing with a split 2 Huntmaster/ 1 ooze. Personal preference/meta choice, I guess. Mine is infested with combo and Ooze is an ALL STAR.
3) Huntmaster is a key card in Nic Fit. It can win games on its own. Furthermore, don't forget we are a very control deck and gaining/tanking for a few more turns are necessary to resolve our kill. Huntmaster provides a token (2 bodies), some life and could be a huge beat if your opponent has an empty hand/board which is bound to happen if you pernicious deed first and land it thereafter :D
To sum-up he is a bit like our "little" Jace.

[Ralf]

1) Cut a basic mountain add a wooded foothills. Add a Sakura tribe-elder and go to 61 cards MD. So you'll have 2 more ways to shuffle the library.
2) I'm also playing with a split 2 Huntmaster/ 1 ooze. Personal preference/meta choice, I guess. Mine is infested with combo and Ooze is an ALL STAR.
3) Huntmaster is a key card in Nic Fit. It can win games on its own. Furthermore, don't forget we are a very control deck and gaining/tanking for a few more turns are necessary to resolve our kill. Huntmaster provides a token (2 bodies), some life and could be a huge beat if your opponent has an empty hand/board which is bound to happen if you pernicious deed first and land it thereafter :D
To sum-up he is a bit like our "little" Jace.

All-in-all, I think you need at least 4 gaining life/strong CIP effect creatures in Scapeshift (2 Hunt, 2 thragt).

[pfiremc13]

-) Nevermores are slightly questionable. They're another "generalist" piece of hate that's good against literal anything, but they're in decay range, and there's probably better things they could (should) be. I remember the last time I played the deck I had a specific thought in mind for them, but now I can't even remember what it was. Nevermore is an okay card, but it suffers from not being a 2/2, and from costing 3.

-) Sneak and Show hate has worked before, including and especially Humility. Humility is TOTAL scorched-earth tactics, since we completely hate to see that card too -- but our deck is full of castable 1/1s, whereas their deck is full of uncastable 1/1s. It's a big difference. If you need to kold Sneak and Show, Humility is a good slot to invest in. Sneak is still vulnerable to most of our other hate, too, but sometimes Sneak needs that extra-special touch to really push it over the edge in our favor. Humility accomplishes that. It might be winnable, ish, without Humility -- but with Humility I would say the matchup is favored for us.

Wow, awesome! Favorable matchups against both the top decks?

As I mentioned before, I have 2 idyllic tutors in my current sideboard. Theoretically they can be useful against anything, getting deed vs. aggro, recurring nightmare vs control, nether void vs. storm (and I guess other combo too?) and humility vs. sneak and show. In practice, I've never really played them too much.



-) Omni is a gigantic slut. In Thune, you get to at least run hateful bears, though, which is one of the better ways of attacking the deck. Gaddock Teeg + a Nevermore on Show and Tell, for example, basically locks the deck out. Canonist is nuts against them, as is Nether Void. If they don't open with Leyline of Sanctity, you can Cranial Extraction them. All of that being said, though, Omni is probably the biggest chink in Thune's combo armor (at least, compared to universal shitfests like Belcher or TES godhands). You're going to have to get lucky here, realistically.

...and 12post, as usual. Yeah, that's really too bad. I actually cut my sideboard canonists and nevermores for other things, so that just makes it worse :|



This is the universal TES problem. Surviving to 4 mana is our main goal (unless running Trinisphere). For JundFit, Slaughter Games is our de facto Nether Void. That's our silver bullet and in this application I feel it's even stronger than Void. Because you don't have access to red mana Void is probably the next best thing (or Cranial Extraction/Memoricide). Which is a hilarious thing to consider because Games is ~$1 and Void is ~$150.

Yeah. I guess I'll just have to rely on thoughtseize + therapy + teeg + mindbreak trap.

Speaking of that, is mindbreak trap any good? Or should I just use canonist?



Sadistic Sacrament could also be a card to consider. It's BBB but it has the potential to grab every combo piece at once and they usually only play 1 of each.

BBB is the problem. I don't see it coming out t2 barring a tower.


I've been thinking about Pod more, is Lodestone Golem viable? I can easily imagine a MUD-flavored Pod prototype doing ugly things. There's already a heft of artifact creatures as well.
Turn 1 Explorer
Turn 2 Phyrexian Tower -> Lodestone?

It sure looks cute.

Awesome! That's really cool too because you can pod through a lodestone. What do other people think?

[Nithkar]

I've been thinking about Pod more, is Lodestone Golem viable? I can easily imagine a MUD-flavored Pod prototype doing ugly things. There's already a heft of artifact creatures as well.
Turn 1 Explorer
Turn 2 Phyrexian Tower -> Lodestone?

It sure looks cute.

Aren't Lodestone and Veteran anti-synergistic? I mean, what's the point of making their stuff cost one more if you are giving them two mana? I think it would have to be a one sided explorer to mater against low cc decks. Unless you are planing to use it to manage the backfire of a triggered explorer, against the decks that can use the mana we give them better than us. Besides that, i don't think that he will be of such impact when on a pod chain. Ok, if we manage to make it turn 2 or tree with Vet, he's sure excellent. But if in a part of a pod chain, he would seldom come off earlier the turn five. By then, i'm not sure it will impact the game meaningfully. But i say that with just little experience on pod builds, so i might be absolutely wrong :tongue:.

- EDIT- I don't know why, but i could swear Lodestone had 5cc, ahahahah. Being 4cc, my arguments lose a bit of consistency. But i would generally maintain my point.

[pfiremc13]

If you add 3spheres, that might change :P

hymn inspired me to build a mud "fit" list but I'm not going to post it just yet. (This is your first official warning.)

Here's my current thune fit list

1 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sylvan Ranger
2 Spike Feeder
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Necroplasm
1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

[Fizzeler]

So call me insane, but I am testing Whip Of Erebos in my pod list, actually has quite a bit of synergy with the rest of the deck currently testing it over Recurring Nightmare, but I can see them being hard to handle in tandem with one another rather than one or the other

Also Grave Titan is staying after he single handily helped me crush a Jund opponent

[UseLess]

So I played a local tournament yesterday with my BUGfit list. The meta was very strange, a lot of local pet decks and new players to the format (out of 22 players, one brought a deck from the DtB section). It was a bit of a rough day, but in the end I managed a decent 3-1-2, finishing on the 6th place. I decided not to test a True-Name Nemesis, but instead play another Far/Away, leading to this list:

Mainboard
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Consecrated Sphinx
4 Brainstorm
4 Negate
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Far / Away
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Innocent Blood
2 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast

Round 1: Aggro Elves 1-1
A aggro elves deck that played GSZ and a lot of mana elves (priest, archdruid) to put Progenitus or Craterhoof into play, but it was also capable of killing you with lords and little elves. Played wasteland and some fancy stuff.
G1: Was a close game, I managed to get a deed in play when he bashed me with some elves. He just kept on ramping after my first deed and when I was pretty much stable at 9 life I face a Progenitus with back up elves… I made a few small mistakes here I think that made sure I lost, otherwise I could’ve possibly made it.
G2: I think Deed + Jace got me there in the long run. However, he made a calculation error since he could’ve killed me with a craterhoof but instead tried to kill me with forestwalked lords, which I Decayed and was then able to block and kill him. I boarded in FoWs, but this was clearly a mistake. I was just a bit afraid of tapping out when has a shit load of mana with cradle and priest just to topdeck a GSZ for an instant kill or Progenitus.
G3: Both games took long and we had only a few minutes for this round. He couldn’t kill me in time while I was trying to disrupt him. I don’t know if I would have won the round with plenty of time, since it was pretty difficult to keep up with all the elves. On paper it looks favorable, but I was just glad I didn’t lost. I never felt in control here.
0-0-1

Round 2: BW good stuff 1-1
Hymn, Stoneforge mystic, Dark confident, Vindicate, Wasteland, Lingering Souls etc. Difficult match up since the souls + equipments are hard to deal with outside pernicious deed.
R1: I get destroyed by double hymn. After I cleared the board and was about to land a Jace he hymned me and left me without cards. Didn’t get any action afterwards.
R2: I had control and he got Jaced.
R3: Not much time left. I had to think a bit and disrupted him as much as I could. He couldn’t kill me before time ran out and I hadn’t full control by then either. No clue who would’ve won.
0-0-2

Round 3: Mono black suicide 0-2
Facing my own deck that I lend to a friend! Not easy due to a lot of discard and sacrifice effects, but Sigarda shines here.
R1: Lost due to a mulligan to 4
R2: He had Tombstalker, I got Sigarda. From there it was pretty equal, until he found the newly added Sword of Fire and Ice with his Top. I drew nothing to deal with the big stalker and lost to the 7/7 flyer with a big sword.
0-1-2

Round 4: Casual mill 2-0
This was embarrassing, some weird mill deck with hardly any disruption (just some bounce) and things like memory sluice, thought scour, glimpse and mind funeral. My creatures resolved and killed him before he could mill me in both rounds.
1-1-2

Round 5: BG pox 2-0
G1: We start by killing some deathrite shamans and a veteran. Cabal Therapy removes his threats and he is left with removal. However, I drew nothing but lands so he had only useless cards. He resolved a Lily that slowly got to 7, after which I topdecked a Decay and killed it. He had no pressure whatsoever and after another land I drew Karn which sealed the game. Innocent blood is a poor card when your opponent is only playing lands and planeswalkers.
G2: I got an early Jace I think, which gained me a lot of card advantage. It led to a GSZ for Sigarda and from there I easily won the game.
2-1-2

Round 6: BUG control 2-1
Another friend of mine. Lots of counters, planeswalkers and disruption. Sigarda is my to-go-for-card, but I have to resolve GSZ to do so.
G1: This game was so stupid. He drew lands and counterspells, I only drew crap and veteran explorers, which actually killed him. At some point I had 3, so he had to flash in Snapcaster, flashback Abrupt Decay one of my veterans, after which I decayed his Snapcaster mage. The final remaining two veterans killed him. I think I attacked around 10 times with veterans and nothing really happened.
G2: He had control and I a poor hand with a mulligan or 2 I think. I got Jaced.
G3: He kept a bit wacky hand with 4 land, 2 FoW and a Perish. My turn 2 Cabal on Fow left him with nothing and I was able to resolve my GSZ quickly afterwards for a Sigarda. He tried but couldn’t get rid of her (she killed Jace, Lily and then him).
3-1-2

I picked a French Stifle as my prize and got a lot of play testing, unfortunately not against the decks I was looking for but I learned that the second Far/Away was too much. I don’t like a single Nemesis as it dies to my own deeds and 5-7 turns swinging with a 3/1 doesn’t seem like a sound strategy to me. I’m now thinking of -1 Far/Away, +1 Eternal Witness. Sometimes it would have been very helpful to GSZ for a removal spell via EWitness. However, my blue count is now only 16 MB. Usually I take out 2 counterspell for the FoWs against control decks with wasteland (e.g. R6), but that will have to change then. I want at least 17 blue cards when boarding in 4 FoW. I haven’t been able to test my Sideboard much, but Golgari Charm was a nice card, I will keep that one for sure. Daze is mainly there for combo which I didn’t face, so haven’t been able to test it.
Currently pondering over Phyrexian Metamorph for the main deck to increase the blue count (instead of Witness for example) and maybe True-Name Nemesis in the SB instead of Daze, for control decks. Several might actually be good against control. Overall I was pretty satisfied though with the list. It needs a little tuning, but it performs really well so far. Any feedback is of course welcome!

[Tao]

This is an interesting approach to BUG Fit and I think it has good potential. Some or many Negates in the main deck seem great. I also like the Sigarda just for GSZ a lot. Thought about it and didn't go for it, but it is probably right. With Brainstorm and Jace she won't get stuck in hand and there is nothing even remotely close to her in power level.

Here is what I think you should definetely change:
- I still think that playing 1 Mountain for 1 Huntmaster as the only Red card in the 75 is ridiculously bad.
- Witness is really, really good when you have 4 Decay, 4 Therapy and 4 Brainstorm to get back (Therapies to use flashback, too) and GSZ to search it.

I'd cut the Far Away and the Huntmaster for a Witness and a 3rd Jace.

[XdeckX]

Took angry mountains to the tourney I talked about earlier. 20 players.
I ended up 3-1-1.
R1 vs monored sneak attack / through the breach.dec. That an even worse matchup than SneakShow... Lost horribly.
R2 vs GBW rector fit. He usually playes ScapeWish but wanted to try out someting different. I rip his hand apart game 1 and manage to draw dud after dud. I eventually have alle but 7 mountians and 1 vakalut in play. No tops, no wish, no scapeshift, no gsz->titan. Nothing. I loose to nightmare into yosei lock. When im locked out i topdeck wish... G2 he rectors a leyline of sanctity. I go beatdown with lots of dudes. G3 he has leyline again. I get to 8 lands during turns and need to rip runner runner. (Deed, bwish or scapeshift) he finds yosei on his 2nd turn and uses phyrexian tower to lock 5 lands. I rip deed but cant cast it (no green available). He eot surgicals my bwishes. Boohoo
R3 vs punishing zoo. Allmost a bye
R4 vs bug delver (without goyfs...) I turn 1 therapy, turn 2 therapy, therapy. Turn 3 vetex flash ack therapy. Prett silly. He rips tombstalker but i land scapeshift for 36. G2 is more or less a copy of game 1. I just dont need t therapy him as much as he muls to 5.
R5 vs elves. This is going to be hard. He hoofs me to 5 on turn 3 or 4. The next turn he goes 3x glimpse into doooooooods. If he were to not rip NO/GSZ/hoof I will win (enough dudes to survive an attakc to the 3 dudes he has active. But 3 glimpse do what was to be expected. Close so i feel confident. G2 I rip had hand apart and go aggro with huntmaster + token. G3 i deed him 5 for 1. After that i drop huntmaster, huntmaster. He puts up a fight but i spaughter games his good cards.

All in all I had a blast again with ScapeWish. Its just a great deck play if you enjoy Nicfit ;)

[Lantern of Insight]

Hi guys!

So i've been thinking about getting to legacy for a while, and i really don't wan't to play burn or some cheap combo deck like oops. My meta is mostly fair decks, and the few people who play combo play oops or omniclash. After reading this thread for a while, i'll say that i really like what this archetype looks like. I am on a pretty tight budget (about 200e), so i won't be getting ABU duals, but i already own most shocks.

What nic fit version would you suggest? Or is it better to not play nic fit at all?

[Star|Scream]

Hi guys!

So i've been thinking about getting to legacy for a while, and i really don't wan't to play burn or some cheap combo deck like oops. My meta is mostly fair decks, and the few people who play combo play oops or omniclash. After reading this thread for a while, i'll say that i really like what this archetype looks like. I am on a pretty tight budget (about 200e), so i won't be getting ABU duals, but i already own most shocks.

What nic fit version would you suggest? Or is it better to not play nic fit at all?

Do you have Fetchlands already?

[Megadeus]

Yeah you could get most of the Non lands in a GB shell for that. I think my original Nic FIt Build (no duals, straight GB) was around 400-500 USD with fetches.

[Lantern of Insight]

I only own most of the duals from scars to theros and a few 10th edit. ones.

[Megadeus]

Fetches are pretty important, not only for mana fixing but also for Sensei's Top. I'm sure you can build a sub optimal mana base in this deck, thanks to veteran explorers ramp, but it could definitely be improved.

[Star|Scream]

I only own most of the duals from scars to theros and a few 10th edit. ones.

Overgrown tombs will work since you will be fetching basics most of the time, but you really need the fetch lands. Catacombs and Flats will be the cheapest.

[Megadeus]

Overgrown tombs will work since you will be fetching basics most of the time, but you really need the fetch lands. Catacombs and Flats will be the cheapest.

Yeah fetches are important. More important than duals.

[Lantern of Insight]

I think i will be able to buy/trade a few fetches for this deck. Thanks for helping me out!

[Megadeus]

I think i will be able to buy/trade a few fetches for this deck. Thanks for helping me out!

Do you have any of the non lands? Like creatures/green suns/decays? Im just also assuming you have some of the more recent cards that are commonly played in the deck.

[Lantern of Insight]

Of the expensive cards i own only 2 tusks, 2 decays's, 1 thoughtseize and 1 flip garruk.

[kavaki]

getting your hand on fetches is key #1. Not only because it'll smooth your manabase and working well with top, but it also allows you to have a piece that goes into another deck. I would say Catacombs is top as it allows you to have access to any other B and/or G deck.

As others have said, shocks will be fine, but if you can snipe the relevant duals, it will be a boon for you. After that, I'd say go after tops, but I feel deed is more important.

The best thing about this deck is that most of our threats are cards that were/are good, but people dismiss. Huntmaster of the Fells in red versions being one. I would of said prime time, but Rock Lee on here would beg to differ at that being a card not commonly seen in legacy (12-post has been showing up more after last year.)

Another boon is the reprinting of 'sieze as that was a barrier to me building the deck.

Basically: As long as your smart about your pickk-ups, you can build this deck easily. Just make sure to go for multi-deck staples first, so that if you leave the deck, you have parts to others.

[Arianrhod]

Of the expensive cards i own only 2 tusks, 2 decays's, 1 thoughtseize and 1 flip garruk.

Tusk isn't expensive. He's like $3 now.

My advice for a budget Nic Fit:

-) Get your Veterans and your Therapies. They are the soul of the archetype.
-) Get your Tops. They are our Brainstorm.
-) Stick with GB. Splashing a color is doable but dangerous because it necessitates more expensive cards (by definition you're adding a color to add something).
-) Get your Deeds. They, along with Therapy, are how we control what our opponents are doing with the mana we give them.
-) Treetop Villages. More so if you can get a Primeval Titan, but even without a Titan, Treetops are solid anti-flood tech since you won't have thinning via fetches.
-) Get your Green Sun's Zeniths. They tie your creature base together, and give you a very high chance to topdeck a bomb lategame with every draw step.

What you don't NEED:

-) Fetches. Are they nice? Yes. Mandatory? No. Put in the full set of Sakura-Tribe Elders and Wood Elves, and tick your overall land count down to 19-20. Ideal? Not by a long stretch -- but it'll function why you work on getting the more expensive stuff.
-) Big bomby things. Since you have Tusks, that's great. For other threats, just use whatever huge draft common / EDH staple you happen to have in-color. You could make a very convincing argument for running [card]Soul of the Harvest[/cards] over Primeval Titan, including that Soul costs pennies vs Titan's dollars. You could probably make Nic Fit win by putting Craw Wurms in it if you had to.
-) Revised duals. Especially if you're sticking with just G/B for now. Overgrown Tombs will suffice.

--------

If, after Veterans, Therapies, Deeds, Tops, and Zeniths you have anything left at all, I would suggest either rounding out G/B (Primeval Titan, Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, Thrun, etc), or working on fetches, so you can reduce the Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves and up your land count, which will lead to fewer problems overall.

Another viable course of action is to pick up Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fires, and a Wolf Run. With a Stomping Ground and a Blood Crypt you could probably emulate Punishing Fit fairly easliy. Even without the Groves, it might be a good idea to pick up a Kessig Wolf Run and put in a couple of red sources.

I'm not saying you're going to win a ton of events with it. But if it gets you into the format and set up to the point where you can start prizing locals, you can use that credit to make your list better. It'll probably be a long road before you'll have a fully powered version of the deck, but it should still be sufficient enough to be competitive.

[Arianrhod]

getting your hand on fetches is key #1. Not only because it'll smooth your manabase and working well with top, but it also allows you to have a piece that goes into another deck. I would say Catacombs is top as it allows you to have access to any other B and/or G deck.

As others have said, shocks will be fine, but if you can snipe the relevant duals, it will be a boon for you. After that, I'd say go after tops, but I feel deed is more important.

The best thing about this deck is that most of our threats are cards that were/are good, but people dismiss. Huntmaster of the Fells in red versions being one. I would of said prime time, but Rock Lee on here would beg to differ at that being a card not commonly seen in legacy (12-post has been showing up more after last year.)

Another boon is the reprinting of 'sieze as that was a barrier to me building the deck.

Basically: As long as your smart about your pickk-ups, you can build this deck easily. Just make sure to go for multi-deck staples first, so that if you leave the deck, you have parts to others.

In principal I would agree with you, but with a budget of 200 E, I don't realistically see Lantern being able to hop decks easily. Given that I would expect him to be playing Nic Fit for a while off of fiscal reasons along, I think that the fetches can be deferred for a few months.

[hymntotourcock]

Lantern, i advise you to sign up for Pucatrade. It'll allow you to unload many of the cards you have but don't care about. It's the most cost effective way to stockpile legacy cards IMO.

I second Arianrhod's advice. The core of the deck is:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
X Pernicious Deed
X Sensei's Divining Top
x Green Sun's Zenith

These numbers can be fudged to suit your budget, but I would definitely prioritize these cards over fetchlands, at least in the interim. These cards are pretty much essential to any NicFit build regardless of color, so tackle these first.
Happy hunting

[kavaki]

Oh no, I agree with you Arian. I just like picking up the cards that will have a wider use first. GSZ, Therapy, Deed and Top are good examples of these. If he ever does drop Nic Fit in the future, he has the startings of other decks. Explorer is probably the only card in your listing of what to get first that doesnt see much use elsewhere, but its very cheap. Unlike a card such as Grindstone, which is seen in one deck (I consider imperial and UR similar enough) and is around $15-20 near me.

As for a prime time replacement, why not Kodama of the North Tree. Its a Craw Wurm with upside in that you cant swords it.

[Megadeus]

I mean prime time isn't expensive and it's only a 1 of. It just wins games

[Nithkar]

Furthermore, I heard non trustful rumors that fetches would be reprinted, so it might be worth to wait a little. It's just a rumor, but they were right about thoughtseize, so it might be worth to wait to get some fetches.

Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk

[kavaki]

0-2-1 drop on my first playthrough of Nic Fit
0-2 Lands and Tron (I am not joking and makes me sad)
1-1-1 UR Painter.
Lands guy said match-up was in my favor.... but im unsure there. How do you side against Lands? Im guessing games is pretty good, but....
I need a lot more playtime with the deck im guessing.... ugh this really sucks

[jbone2016]

0-2-1 drop on my first playthrough of Nic Fit
0-2 Lands and Tron (I am not joking and makes me sad)
1-1-1 UR Painter.
Lands guy said match-up was in my favor.... but im unsure there. How do you side against Lands? Im guessing games is pretty good, but....
I need a lot more playtime with the deck im guessing.... ugh this really sucks

Against Lands, getting rid of their loams is pretty key.
Which version of Nic Fit are you playing?

[kavaki]

Against Lands, getting rid of their loams is pretty key.
Which version of Nic Fit are you playing?

Punishing Nic Fit, the list from the OP just to get my feet wet.

[picklock]

Planning on heading to SCG Las Vegas in December.
Going to start playtesting with this:

nic-fit bug by Picklock
Format: Legacy - THS

MAIN DECK
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Hornet Queen
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [13]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [5]
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Negate
3 Pernicious Deed
Spells [20]
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
Lands [23]

Last time I played bug fit I utilized Fierce Empath as a bomb tutor, which felt powerful, since I couldn't otherwise tutor for Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx (I don't know about anyone else, but that is by far my favorite creature to have the board). But it was a bit too clunky. This time I just fit all my bombs in the Zenith package, counting on Brainstorm and Jace to keep Sigarda in the deck. It might be wrong not to run Force of Will, but the blue count isn't exactly ideal. 14 if I squeezed in a playset, since Counterspell and Negate would be two of the cuts.

Still brainstorming -heh- on the sideboard. Figuring I'll want some number of the following:
Swan Song
Counterspell
Innocent Blood
Leyline of the Void
Scavenging Ooze? I'd prefer him in the main but I'm not sure what to cut..
Maelstrom Pulse
Engineered Plague

oh, and as terrible as it is.. I kind of have a goal. I want to cast Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker in legacy. So I'm going to squeeze him and a Badlands into the sideboard. I'm thinking the only time I'd get to cast him would be against Miracles so the one red source should do it.

1 Badlands
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swan Song
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Plague
1 Innocent Blood

Maybe?

EDIT: @Kavaki

If you're running the same 75 as the OP, Surgical and Slaughter Games look like your key sideboard cards. The Abrupt Decay could be good depending on their list. It hits all the deck's enablers and lock pieces.

[Ralf]

Planning on heading to SCG Las Vegas in December.
Going to start playtesting with this:

nic-fit bug by Picklock
Format: Legacy - THS...



Hmmm, I'm also playtesting a BUG list.
I went harder for the PW plan. The punishing fire version of this deck was also sweet but all-in-all I feel like blue is better suited for fighting against combo.deck

I tried Bolas several times, but he really is too "cute" to be included. When you eventually land him, the game is already over.

1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Brainstorm
3 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Surgical extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Swan song

[Lantern of Insight]

I've readed throught some lists, and decided that i want to build scapewish. according to my caclulations, it will fit my budget just fine (replacing fetches and ABU:s with shocks and elders), But i have a question about the sideB. Why do you run only ReB:s and not a split of Red elemental blasts's and Pyroblasts? I mean, arent they the same thing, but if they get extirpated/whatever you still have half of them left with a split.

[kavaki]

EDIT: @Kavaki

If you're running the same 75 as the OP, Surgical and Slaughter Games look like your key sideboard cards. The Abrupt Decay could be good depending on their list. It hits all the deck's enablers and lock pieces.

I will admit that I didnt bring in games, but I brought in Extractions as I knew I could catch a loam in the yard. Afterwards I found out he still runs thickets, which is something people have been cutting, so I screwed up there.

I can say the deck is harder than it appears at first blush. It also doesnt help that I havent faced lands for 6-10 months, painter was never (although I know the deck), so I'll just keep practicing for Baltimore....



I've readed throught some lists, and decided that i want to build scapewish. according to my caclulations, it will fit my budget just fine (replacing fetches and ABU:s with shocks and elders), But i have a question about the sideB. Why do you run only ReB:s and not a split of Red elemental blasts's and Pyroblasts? I mean, arent they the same thing, but if they get extirpated/whatever you still have half of them left with a split.

Pyroblasts can be misdirected away from what we want to hit, REB's can't. We arent a storm deck, so the application of using it as free storm is lost on us.

[picklock]

Hmmm, I'm also playtesting a BUG list.
I went harder for the PW plan. The punishing fire version of this deck was also sweet but all-in-all I feel like blue is better suited for fighting against combo.deck

I tried Bolas several times, but he really is too "cute" to be included. When you eventually land him, the game is already over.

I've like the GSZ plan because of the consistency (4 copies of Thrag, 3 copies of Sigarda, 4 of the Queen, etc.) plus the utility. But planeswalkers are definitely harder to deal with (cute Spell Pierce) and Brainstorm balances out the consistency a bit.

How have Ashiok and Vraska been for you? I've never played a single game with either of them.

Oh, and PW+P-Deed is a glorious thing.

[Ralf]

I've like the GSZ plan because of the consistency (4 copies of Thrag, 3 copies of Sigarda, 4 of the Queen, etc.) plus the utility. But planeswalkers are definitely harder to deal with (cute Spell Pierce) and Brainstorm balances out the consistency a bit.

How have Ashiok and Vraska been for you? I've never played a single game with either of them.

Oh, and PW+P-Deed is a glorious thing.

Indeed.

Well generally opponents will focus hard to get rid of Jace and Liliana. Then you land Vraska and the game is usually over.
At first glance, her +1 is not THAT helpfull but between DRS +2 life activation, you can get to tank a little bit more, just enough to draw/cantrip into another sweeper/protection.
I found her very hard to deal with after a pernicious deed as she will most likely generate some CA while your opponent is digging for answers (creatures, direct damages) to prevent her from ulti. Eventually, Vraska will win you games like Jace can.

Finally the lock provided by a board with Jace, liliana & vraska is really insane, not that very common but it can happen from to time to time.

GSZ has been dismissed. DRS is, alone, a swiss army knife.
It provides life gain, another mana acceleration, fights very well graveyard based strategies and could help ending games. It is also a "must to be answered" for a lot of tempo deck.
GSZ provides these as well but in a very different way:
- fights better against counterbalance, chalice of the void
- but slower (1 more mana)
- and softer to the usual counterspell suite we have in legacy (spell pierce, daze for example)
- but provides better synergy with pernicious deed as sometimes DRS will be destoyed for your own sake.

Final words:

The deck has to be played as a "tapped out" one most likely. Best first turns are to power out:
Turn 1 = land + vet
Turn 2 = land + cabal + flashback cabal with vet + play hymn or save the 2 mana holding a counterspell
Turn 3 = (land or not) + PW

Ashiok is more of a "flex & cute" slot and could be considered as liliana n°4 or as hymn to tourach n°3.
When you have ripped apart oppo's hand or wipe the board, he could be a real beater (unlike liliana) by stealing opponent's creatures. He is harder to deal with than Liliana just for his +2 and they could be complementary to each other (I hate drawing liliana when one is already on board except for some "rare" tricks).
Anyway, as a one-of you'll see him sometimes but not that much.

In its place I used to play "Null brooch" that's just to say...

[pfiremc13]

I'm thinking of building a standstill/bug pod list with multiple notion thiefs, factories, lots of spot removal and walkers. What do people think?

[P-E]

Indeed.


Final words:

The deck has to be played as a "tapped out" one most likely. Best first turns are to power out:
Turn 1 = land + vet
Turn 2 = land + cabal + flashback cabal with vet + play hymn or save the 2 mana holding a counterspell
Turn 3 = (land or not) + PW

...

If you play like that i think you missplay Nic Fit
Turn 1 cabal
Turn 2 explo +flashback

otherwise your explorer will be removed too easily.

[Lantern of Insight]

So i have proxied a Scapewish deck, and it has done well in my metagame so far. This is the list i have tested with: (slightly modified Arianhood's scapewish)

MB: 60 cards
CREATURES
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (as additional shuffle effects, since no fetches yet)
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
SPELLS
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter games
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
LANDS - what manabase you would suggest? I'll get a few fetches in the near future.
5 Mountain
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Blood Crypt
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground

SB: 15 cards
4 Red Elemental Blast - had big trouble with jace decks
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

Thoughts?

[Ralf]

If you play like that i think you missplay Nic Fit
Turn 1 cabal
Turn 2 explo +flashback

otherwise your explorer will be removed too easily.

On the play, I like to play vet first.
Why ?

I prefer having more chance to hit twice with cabal. As it is easier to try to bet on opponent's hand after seeing his first land than the other way . And I hate having to face back a T1 discard and losing veteran.
Finally, only swords to plowshare gets rid of vet.

After side, your play could be correct though.

I guess it is a matter of personal playstyle. But you should play more Nic Fit by yourself if you continue to make such asumption.

[SirTylerGalt]

For those playing BUG Nic Fit, have you considered Countersquall instead of Negate? Black mana usually won't be a problem. Thoughts?

[Juice11]

For those playing BUG Nic Fit, have you considered Countersquall instead of Negate? Black mana usually won't be a problem. Thoughts?

I typically don't play negate in the first place. I guess if you do it would work.

[pfiremc13]

For those playing BUG Nic Fit, have you considered Countersquall instead of Negate? Black mana usually won't be a problem. Thoughts?

It seems like the mana would be more relevant than the 2 life, even if it is minimally relevant. The fact is we are not an aggro deck, and 2 life matters very little.

[pfiremc13]

Here's my current thune fit list

1 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sylvan Ranger
2 Spike Feeder
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Necroplasm
1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

Forgot to update this

-1 wall of blossoms, move batterskull to main, +1 mindbreak trap in side

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Back from a long hiatus. Out of curiosity, would throwing a singleton of both Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths to fetch with Prime Time be a good idea?

[Megadeus]

Back from a long hiatus. Out of curiosity, would throwing a singleton of both Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths to fetch with Prime Time be a good idea?

I feel like Resolved Prime Time in general means you are winning right? Not saying you are wrong or anything. Just my thought.

[uncletiggy]

It was discussed at some point and decided that fetching two treetop villages wins in the same amount of time takes up the same amount of slots and are more useful individually in addition to producing green mana.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Fair enough. Even though its more damage overall, winming in two to three turns is the same no matter how ya go bout it.

Also, another train of thought for BUG variants: Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse?

[MrIggins]

I feel like I'd much rather have Abrupt Decay than Echoing Truth, and Pulse vs Decay is a bit of a tossup, probably more of a metagame call than anything.

What situations do you want exactly Echoing Truth in? If you want that effect, wouldn't it be better in the sideboard?

[kavaki]

Im lost.
Im not doing good at all playing the deck and its really starting to make me question if im really a decent player...
I just can't beat lands and everyone keeps saying that its not a bad match-up, but I just can't seem to win... at all.

I really want to play this deck well, but it seems like I keep hitting a wall where im not making any sort of progress in the slightest.
This is probably more of a expression of frustration that I needed to just put down, but argh is this bothering me something fierce.

[MrIggins]

Im lost.
Im not doing good at all playing the deck and its really starting to make me question if im really a decent player...
I just can't beat lands and everyone keeps saying that its not a bad match-up, but I just can't seem to win... at all.

I really want to play this deck well, but it seems like I keep hitting a wall where im not making any sort of progress in the slightest.
This is probably more of a expression of frustration that I needed to just put down, but argh is this bothering me something fierce.

Which list are you playing? I have yet to experience that matchup with Scapewish which I imagine is probably an okay matchup, but I would not call it good and it's probably not even favored. I say it might be okay with Scape because you can sometimes just kill them, but I do remember having a really, really hard time with the matchup when I was still playing a more fair version of Nic Fit.

Some matchups are just really tough. Lands, in my experience at least, is one of them for most variants. I wouldn't let it get you down if you're struggling, they operate on a different axis than we want to, which is why Nic Fit is a hard deck for other fair legacy decks to beat. If you want to learn how play the deck well, I recommend practicing against Death and Taxes in particular, but really just jam games against everything, accepting that there are some decks- namely combo and apparently lands- that you will struggle to beat. It's possible that you're taking a wrong approach which we can also help with, but you'd need to give more information for that.

[Blastoderm]

Im lost.
Im not doing good at all playing the deck and its really starting to make me question if im really a decent player...
I just can't beat lands and everyone keeps saying that its not a bad match-up, but I just can't seem to win... at all.

I really want to play this deck well, but it seems like I keep hitting a wall where im not making any sort of progress in the slightest.
This is probably more of a expression of frustration that I needed to just put down, but argh is this bothering me something fierce.

If you're able to get an Ooze out fairly early to attack their graveyard you're pretty far ahead. Thrun beats usually wins it for me after that.

[uncletiggy]

Has there been any word on splitting this thread to make it easier to follow there are three distinct decks being discussed that share the same engine but have little to do with each other if ant and tes deserve different threads I'd say scapewish junk and bug list should be seperated ant and tes differ by maybe ten cards and use the same win cons these decks do completely different things with the lands they get from explorer

[kavaki]

Which list are you playing? I have yet to experience that matchup with Scapewish which I imagine is probably an okay matchup, but I would not call it good and it's probably not even favored. I say it might be okay with Scape because you can sometimes just kill them, but I do remember having a really, really hard time with the matchup when I was still playing a more fair version of Nic Fit.

Some matchups are just really tough. Lands, in my experience at least, is one of them for most variants. I wouldn't let it get you down if you're struggling, they operate on a different axis than we want to, which is why Nic Fit is a hard deck for other fair legacy decks to beat. If you want to learn how play the deck well, I recommend practicing against Death and Taxes in particular, but really just jam games against everything, accepting that there are some decks- namely combo and apparently lands- that you will struggle to beat. It's possible that you're taking a wrong approach which we can also help with, but you'd need to give more information for that.

Im on a stock Punishing Fire list from the OP so I can get my bearings on whats what....


If you're able to get an Ooze out fairly early to attack their graveyard you're pretty far ahead. Thrun beats usually wins it for me after that.

It either seems like I dont see a zenith, I dont see the Scooze, or they get the stage-depths combo before I can get ooze ready. It also doesnt help that im going up against someone who really has played the deck to a zenith point and knows a lot of its intricacies (It also doesnt help (er, I guess it actually does) that I play at a store where the competition is extremely high and people play decks that they really know...)

[MasterHerC]

mh
had the lands matchup at gp vienna constructed event.
played scapewish so first game i was able to shoot 36 damage over that marit lage.
game 2 i wasn't able to find slaughter games or ramp up in time.
game 3 i slaughtered life from the loam, wished for innocent blood to kill marit lage and my huntmaster token, attacking him down to 4, he played chasm and i drew another burning wish for from the ashes.

tough matchup though.
a lot easier if you resolve slaughter games and play from the ashes in the wishboard.

so i think with punishing fit it will be kinda harder to beat lands ... ^_o

ooze can make this matchup better, exiling loams and/or problematic lands but you still have to watch out for marit lage.

i'll give the rnd md ooze a chance over the 3rd huntmaster, maybe it can improve the combo and lands matchups.

[guelahpapyrus]

This thread should get split.

Punishing Fire / BUG / Junk (these three could be distinct threads, but they all have similar playstyles, unlike the other two)

Birthing Pod

Scapeshift

[Cire_dk]

This thread should get split.

Punishing Fire / BUG / Junk (these three could be distinct threads, but they all have similar playstyles, unlike the other two)

Birthing Pod

Scapeshift

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

[Ralf]

i'll give the rnd md ooze a chance over the 3rd huntmaster, maybe it can improve the combo and lands matchups.

That was my approach for BOM Paris and since Ooze has not left the main board.

Here are some more "small" changes I've made:

-1 cabal therapy MD
+1 cabal therapy SB.
+1 Thoughtseize MD
-1 Thoughtseize SB.

My meta is combo "infested". Overall, it is a minor change, but it has proven to be a huge asset during game 1 against combo.deck where I want to punish their hand as hard as I can. Having access to 7 "potential" cabal therapy instead of 4 gave me a couple of wins where I would have simply lost, either to accelerate for playing more hate with a veteran in play and no way to get rid of him, or to rip their hand apart.
No need to say that with some luck you could have TS + BW/Cabal therapy in your opening hand for a slug feast...

-1 wood elves

For now, I'm back on the 60 cards plan. The inclusion of slaughter games MD had, what I first thought would not be a problem (but I was wrong), an impact on the mana curve. Basically, we have 2 flexible slots. It used to be "abrupt decay" or whatever...

I stated weeks ago that I've started having more than usual losses against tempo.deck
We could spend hours talking about the "abrupt decay" replacement but I want for now to increase my chances against them without decreasing my combo match-up.

Yeah, I want the milk, the cream, the creammaker and the cream's cash.

So cutting 1 wood elves is a first testing attempt (test is pending). The second (on top of the first) will be to cut a sakura-tribe and put back a couple of abrupt decay.
The last attempt (reverting the previous changes) will be to replace "slaughter games" MD for more discards (2 thoughtseize), freeing 1 slot in SB (hell yeah !). My assumption here being that discard is not THAT bad against tempo (taking a counter/stifle to resolve a deed for instance) and good against combo.

Finally here is my updated SB:

3 carpet
4 REB
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal therapy
1 Innocent blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Scape
1 Slaughter

Mark my words here, Meta is changing a bit as we are seeing more and more decks packing creatures with evasion (flying) to counter TNN's arrival. Wood elves and Sakura are no longer as good chump blockers as they were against ground aggro based strategy (for tempo.deck and others). Maybe just a small disturbance in Tarmo's reign or...maybe not !

[Cire_dk]

As you can see from my signature I play 3 decks. Since I will be playing the open Dutch nationals on the 15th of December I wondered how well scapeshift would be positioned in comparison to shardless or team America in a meta that seems to be full of TNN and combo.
Out of these 3 scapeshift is probably the most fun to play but I am not sure about it's chances?
Any input or ideas are welcome.

[Ralf]

As you can see from my signature I play 3 decks. Since I will be playing the open Dutch nationals on the 15th of December I wondered how well scapeshift would be positioned in comparison to shardless or team America in a meta that seems to be full of TNN and combo.
Out of these 3 scapeshift is probably the most fun to play but I am not sure about it's chances?
Any input or ideas are welcome.

I would say Team America (BUG.Delver) should be a very good choice to fight TNN.decks and combo.
In any case, practise a lot before your tournament.

[hymntotourcock]

I've got a local legacy event this weekend and I'm trying to get the drop on the combo decks that seem to plague this town.
I've been testing 2 Slaughter games MB with 4 Cabal Therapy 3 Thoughtseize. In theory, I should have a discard spell in every opening hand this way.
Last night I did some Storm grinding and found that, even with more combo hate, game 1 is like 20% or something stupid like that. I could simply be doing it wrong. Game 2 is significantly better (goes without saying) with Surgical and REB. Keep in mind I was playing against my roommate with a proxy Storm, so he didn't really have a SB to fight me.
What do these bottom-feeders usually bring in against us?

What do you call with Slaughter Games against Dredge?

Also played a few against RUG Delver with the changes and they didn't seem to interfere much when facing a "fairer" deck. I recall seeing 1 Slaughter Games and I used it to name Stifle, not a suboptimal play by any means. That card can single-handedly steal victory from us. Landing a Thrun against RUG is... it's just unfair. Mind you, his regenerate ability can be stifled!

I definitely advise all of you to make proxy decks and have a buddy pilot them against you. It allows you to get into a rhythm of Therapy calls, when to Vet, what to Extract. Plus if your roommate/friend/confidant actually wants you to get better, you can talk about your plays while you make them to decide what's optimal.

I haven't played in a tournament since TNN dropped. My concern is, by gauging my deck more toward combo, this little bastard is going to ambush me.
Of course I have 3 Pernicious Deed 3 Liliana MB, but those confounded blue players sure know how to use counter spells. I also have 1 Toxic Deluge SB which could easily sweep most boards. I'm considering playing 2 in the board. It makes sense considering my Main is slightly more weak to aggro/control, therefore my Side should cater more toward those matches. Yes?

List is in the signature btw. Thanks for your thoughts kiddies!


Edit: I'm also considering a Show and Tell silver bullet in the SB. Hornet Queen? Cute?

[Ralf]

Last night I did some Storm grinding and found that, even with more combo hate, game 1 is like 20% or something stupid like that. I could simply be doing it wrong. Game 2 is significantly better (goes without saying) with Surgical and REB. Keep in mind I was playing against my roommate with a proxy Storm, so he didn't really have a SB to fight me.
What do these bottom-feeders usually bring in against us?

What do you call with Slaughter Games against Dredge?

Edit: I'm also considering a Show and Tell silver bullet in the SB. Hornet Queen? Cute?

Yes Storm is a bad MU. Discard will not always help against a good storm player as they have access to brainstorm and they will likely hide their key spell. Furthermore, with PIF, they can replay every discarded sorcery or instant spells.
Take their tutor (IT, BW), AD or mana boost (DR, CR) depending of their hand / if not go for discard spell.

AD -> LED at EOT or during upkeep.

Your key spell here is "Ooze". Game 1 if you have time to stick him, you will likely win as they have no answer for him. So keep him under discard pressure and land an Ooze. Start eating cantrips and mana boost in the yard.

Game 2, you will likely face spot & mass removal (pyroclasm, chain of vapor, massacre, toxic deluge) -> Same plan as game 1. Surgical extraction on mana boost/tutor will give you a lot of time. Stick an ooze and kill him.

Against dredge -> Ooze again !!!
they will likely bring some mass removal such as firestorm, maybe chain etc..

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".
On a blind therapy, turn 1 -> call LED because if they have one in hand, you are likely dead by turn 2 or 3 maximum.

IMO, Worldspine wurm >>>> Hornet Queen.

From my perspective, if you want to fight against combo, you should diversify your threats. For example, lower the discard count by 1, add a DRS to the board -> you will boost your win % against grave.deck strategy.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My Current BUG list right now:

13 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Disruption/Removal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Echoing Truth

10 Other Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Batterskull

23 Land
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Creeping Tar Pit

15 Side
4 Force of Will
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Negate
2 Gilded Drake
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap

[MasterHerC]

Yes Storm is a bad MU. Discard will not always help against a good storm player as they have access to brainstorm and they will likely hide their key spell. Furthermore, with PIF, they can replay every discarded sorcery or instant spells.
Take their tutor (IT, BW), AD or mana boost (DR, CR) depending of their hand / if not go for discard spell.

AD -> LED at EOT or during upkeep.

Your key spell here is "Ooze". Game 1 if you have time to stick him, you will likely win as they have no answer for him. So keep him under discard pressure and land an Ooze. Start eating cantrips and mana boost in the yard.

Game 2, you will likely face spot & mass removal (pyroclasm, chain of vapor, massacre, toxic deluge) -> Same plan as game 1. Surgical extraction on mana boost/tutor will give you a lot of time. Stick an ooze and kill him.

Against dredge -> Ooze again !!!
they will likely bring some mass removal such as firestorm, maybe chain etc..

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".
On a blind therapy, turn 1 -> call LED because if they have one in hand, you are likely dead by turn 2 or 3 maximum.

IMO, Worldspine wurm >>>> Hornet Queen.

From my perspective, if you want to fight against combo, you should diversify your threats. For example, lower the discard count by 1, add a DRS to the board -> you will boost your win % against grave.deck strategy.

/signed

i already see ooze winning games for me.
i like the plan of the sb cabal therapy to get it with a burning wish.
most of the time i board 1 out to be able to wish for it, should maybe try it from start on.
but i would still run a sb thoughtseize, even if there are md ones.

i am a big fan of deathrite shaman, as i think it's not just a big helper against graveyard-based decks, already thought about adding 1 to the board (md can become a little bit tricky, but if my meta will shift to more flyers i can see me cutting an elder/wood elves.

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

[MrIggins]

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

I was in the same place but I've since come around after it won a lot of games in DC for me, it really does something that no other card can. It doesn't always NEED to do that, since it will sometimes win just by being huge, but there are a lot more situations that you can only get out of with exactly Primeval Titan- life totals high enough that you need to make your Scapeshift bigger, you need to get Valakut going to deal with a planeswalker or troublesome creature, you need to pressure them in more than one way by putting in a huge guy AND threatening Valakut, etc. I don't think i'll be cutting it any time soon. He even gives you approximately infinite shuffles with Top if you need to dig up an answer- Titan into 2 fetches lets you see 12 cards.

[HardBrain]

hey;) today its my first hard touch with this deck when i start test on cocka. i have two question for you guys.
1. which version of Nic Fit is better :
A. Scapeshift
B.ecuring Nightmare
C.Birthing Pod
2.this is possible to make this deck so competitive to try put it on 1st place on big event like bom or scg?

this is first two but important question for me. then i will ask about decklist when i build my own.

[guelahpapyrus]

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

[HardBrain]

Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

[Greenpoe]

agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

[Koby]

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

[jbone2016]

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

or we start playing with another version of the deck.
I switched to scapewish for the last two events. Pretty much Ari's list.
1-4 (sat) Lost to sneak/show in 3 (beating a turn one and turn 3 show), lost to RUG delver in 2. Got smashed by dredge in 2. Beat TES in 2, then lost to ANT in 3.
2-2 Today. Beat Goblins in 3, Punishing Jund in 3, Lost to sneak/show in 2. Lost to punishing nic fit in 2. (ran out of mountains so I couldn't kill him :( )

I have another event Sat and Wed. I think I just need more practice with the deck before I switch back to my Junk Wish version.

[Tao]

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

1. Consider playing Punishing Fire instead if you search for consistency and value. Red blasts and Slaughter Games are important tools that White just doesn't have and Punishing Fire can be nice value, too. I'd recommend my signature list.

2. If you go for GBW nonetheless make sure to play Sigarda. She is the best reason to play White. Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

[HardBrain]

Tao, i like your list, and i made some my own changes. this is playable deck or destroy this deck and make him weak??:
GUYS
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
OPTIONS
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
MONEY
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run

1 Grave Titan
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles - love it vs elves/omnitell/jacedecks

[pfiremc13]

My Current BUG list right now:

13 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Primeval Titan

4 Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Disruption/Removal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Echoing Truth

10 Other Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

23 Land
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Not too sure about the sideboard yet, but definitely 4 Force of Will and 3 Carpet of Flowers.

Wolfir silverheart seems really weak to removal

Why echoing truth exactly?

I would cut some green sun's for tops; they're really important.


This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

Why do you say this?


With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".


Why not bridge from below?

All dredge decks run it (unlike ichorid), and it's much more dangerous.


Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

Speaking of answers for jace,


Sigarda

Also in general there are a lot of removal-resistant creatures you can run to beat jace. I disagree that gbw can't beat jace. It may be harder than for scapewish, which can win through it, or pfire, which has a powerful answer to it, but it is still quite possible. For example, how is it easier for bug pod to beat jace than gbw?

[kingtk3]

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

[HardBrain]

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

[Arianrhod]

I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

[kingtk3]

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

Carpet of flower + slaughter games + discard is a good strategy against them: if you exile griselbrand and emrakul they have no way of winning.

[kingtk3]

Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

Exactly how I feel: let's play a bunch of flying monsters, baneslayer, abyssal persecutor, desecration demon - you name it - fetch a moat with rector and call it a day :)

[heat_wave]

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

I've been playtesting against different decks online recently, and I don't feel like Sneak&Show is an autoloss. If I have therapy, I almost always name brainstorm against blue decks first because this card is just nuts. Then it depends on what you see. Discard is your main weapon against them, at least pre-board. I have 2 thoughtseize, 2 lilianas, 1 hymn to tourach and 4 therapies maindeck, so this is probably a bit above average.

Post-board REBs, carpets and ensnaring bridges help a lot. If you manage to resolve a bridge, you pretty much won the game. I don't play slaughter games (neither MD nor SB) and maybe this is a mistake, but I don't have enough slots and the card seems too slow. Maybe the 2 Toxic Deluges should be Games instead, but deluges are so good against anything aggressive that I don't want to drop them. Golgari Charms are also relevant both against Omnitell and against Sneak&Show.

When my opponent cast two brainstorms in a row and didn't see a Force of Will, he scooped to a bridge. Next game he was too lucky: I survived an attack by a sneaky Emrakul, sacrificed veteran, shaman and a couple lands and was about to stabilize after getting more lands. I had all the cards to win in the next couple turns, and the opponent was sitting with an empty hand and a sneak attack on the battlefield. Next turn he topdecks Griselbrand and I die.

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.

[HardBrain]

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.
i have the same situation here. last month i tested every day another deck cutting those which i dont like bcs legacy is not only winning but fun too. so punishing fit will be my fiest legacy deck over other nic fit version.

ok back to topic. i try test with snt today and really slaughter games is not enough. they topdeck brand and ....uh....


do you run recuring tool to play? huntmaster tusk titans slime?

[hymntotourcock]

I also started out with Punishing Fit (very recently too) and I can say that, against fair decks, it is one of the best of its class. Punishing Fire alone takes out the vast majority of creatures and planeswalkers in the meta. I've found it to be an excellent, versatile way to cut one's teeth in this format.

That said, I'm still not sure that it's as strong as ScapeWish. Combo is so strong in legacy that just by playing a control deck you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. It's just that simple. Combo goes on the offensive, and we scramble to try to find answers for it. They are the definitive proactive deck whereas we can only react (because it's not usually possible to race combo) until we stabilize.

I believe this is the strength of ScapeWish: not only do they have the ability to effectively race combo, they can also change gears and be the controller OR the aggressor. Mind you, they don't control as well as Punishing Fit, but that is the trade off. We can't be the best in every class.

I'm not saying ScapeWish is THE BEST version of NicFit, but in a metagame riddled with combo it seems to be the most straightforward way to win faster. I've never actually played the deck, but I can tell you that I would be afraid to sit across the table from it.



Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Regarding questions about my recent list:
-Yes, Wolfir Silverheart is weak to removal. It's main perk however is that it's GSZable: otherwise, I would run a Batterskull or other more-reliable pump card. I'm open to suggestions though.
-To me, it seems as though Abrupt Decay only helps against CounterTop, as the CMC < 3 overlaps a lot with Deed. Originally, I ran 2 Maelstrom Pulse over 2 Abrupt Decay, but decided to go with Echoing Truth over both as a method of dealing with Empty the Warren tokens, Bridge from Below tokens (in response to Dread Return or other sac-outlet), Marit Lage token, Iona on black or green, and basically just anything that either swarms the field with cards/tokens of the same name or cheats in a hard to deal with creature that neither Pulse nor Decay can deal with. Game 2, I can always pitch it to FoW. I'm at a loss against PWs with this choice though (biggest reason why Pulse over Decay was JMS) . . . will have to adjust according to my expected meta.
-GSZs are just about the last thing I want to cut, but I can see your point about Tops: I could probably cut 1 or 2 other cards and do a 4-2/3 split with Brainstorm and Tops

[pfiremc13]

Regarding questions about my recent list:
-Yes, Wolfir Silverheart is weak to removal. It's main perk however is that it's GSZable: otherwise, I would run a Batterskull or other more-reliable pump card. I'm open to suggestions though.
-To me, it seems as though Abrupt Decay only helps against CounterTop, as the CMC < 3 overlaps a lot with Deed. Originally, I ran 2 Maelstrom Pulse over 2 Abrupt Decay, but decided to go with Echoing Truth over both as a method of dealing with Empty the Warren tokens, Bridge from Below tokens (in response to Dread Return or other sac-outlet), Marit Lage token, Iona on black or green, and basically just anything that either swarms the field with cards/tokens of the same name or cheats in a hard to deal with creature that neither Pulse nor Decay can deal with. Game 2, I can always pitch it to FoW. I'm at a loss against PWs with this choice though (biggest reason why Pulse over Decay was JMS) . . . will have to adjust according to my expected meta.
-GSZs are just about the last thing I want to cut, but I can see your point about Tops: I could probably cut 1 or 2 other cards and do a 4-2/3 split with Brainstorm and Tops

-I don't think you need more than 1 creature to win. I think you should cut silverheart for a top.
-I don't like echoing truth because it does not deal with things permanently. It doesn't deal with the main plans of many decks, and is not very good vs. fair decks either. I'd put in a split between decay and pulse.
-I see your point about not wanting to cut gsz.

[ZimAshe]

Hi All, looking for some feedback. I have always played GWB Nic Fit in a rock style build. a lot of board control and sweet creatures.
I started playing the BUG Nic Fit list with Birthing Pod and had some good games but it has left me with a kind of meh feeling. It suffers from a lot of the problems that most birthing pod lists I've played in the past do. Namely that if you don't resolve a birthing pod early it's just a pile of value creatures.

I've looked at some Melira Pod lists and have come up with a bit of a brew that I'm looking to get some feed back on. This list is completely untested so I can't justify all of the cards in the list but some of the odd ones are there purely on the theoretical basis that they "might be good".


Creatures:27
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Fleecemane Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Bone Shredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Restoration Angel
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Spells:11
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod

Lands:22
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


I like the idea of Fleecemane Lion in a deck like this. A 3/3 for two is pretty good and the ability to become monstrous and dodge spot removal and wraths I feel is nothing to shrug at. Pontiff could be a good answer to True Name nemesis. I realize we have access to Deed but that doesn't always get drawn when it's needed. Pontiff at least offers a tutorable answer to it. Phrexian Metamorph seems like a no brainer in a format full of powerful creatures and equipments. Restoration Angel is another theoretical add. She should win fights with most creatures like Clique and being able to double up on value is never a bad thing. There are also 2 Gavony Township in the deck for the times when there is no birthing pod in play you can just get big and attack with creatures.

There is a slight urge to make this a five color deck and add Deceiver Exarch, Phantasmal Image and Zealous Conscripts to be able to pod up the chain multiple times in a turn. But again. this deck is completely untested and I am looking for initial feedback. maybe something I missed or hadn't thought of. Or if someone wants to build the deck and give it run and tell me how bad it is that is welcome too :wink:

[heat_wave]

i have the same situation here. last month i tested every day another deck cutting those which i dont like bcs legacy is not only winning but fun too. so punishing fit will be my fiest legacy deck over other nic fit version.

ok back to topic. i try test with snt today and really slaughter games is not enough. they topdeck brand and ....uh....


do you run recuring tool to play? huntmaster tusk titans slime?

I'm currently running the following creature package:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deathrite Shaman

Acidic Slime would be a nice addition if I had something to take out. Maybe I'll try to replace a Huntmaster.
I'm not running recurring nightmare, though I should probably try it out, too.

@ hymntotourcock: I'd probably take the risk and name Dark Ritual since the opponent will probably hide his tutors and he already has some acceleration. If he had lotus petals, he would've cast them, so we're left with rituals. If he sets his topdeck wisely, though, we're in trouble. I still need a lot more practice with TES and ANT.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

-I don't think you need more than 1 creature to win. I think you should cut silverheart for a top.
-I don't like echoing truth because it does not deal with things permanently. It doesn't deal with the main plans of many decks, and is not very good vs. fair decks either. I'd put in a split between decay and pulse.
-I see your point about not wanting to cut gsz.

Hmm ... gotcha. Thanks for the insight.

[MrIggins]

Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

I name Dark Ritual here. I figure if they're Brainstorming, they have cards they want to protect, which to me says either Infernal Tutor or another business spell, which they'll be hiding with Brainstorm. Therefore I want to make sure they can't kill me in their next turn or two, and taking their Rituals (if they have them) makes it much less likely that we're just dead when they untap. This should give us enough time to flashback Therapy and take their business spell when they draw it next turn.

Also, welcome to all the new names in the thread!

[HardBrain]

For players who prefer PunishingFit:
I think we can consider about MustIn Cards and Optional Cards. My propose of list:
Must In:
4 Veteran Explorer - for excellent ramp
2 Thragtusk - great gainlife and Adv maker
2 Huntmaster of the fells - like tusk but he can also flip and kill problematic creature
1 Primeval Titan - ramp
1 Scavenging Ooze - main answer on grave / great vs *****
1 Eternal Witness
-----
3 Sensei Diving Top - dig dig dig
3 Pernicious Deed - awesome highpower removal
3/4 Punishing Fire - depents on room for it 3/4
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3/4 Green Sun's Zenith - like in PF.
2/3 abrupt decay - great removal i think best point on this time ( in this color obv)
2 liliana of the Vail - great in our deck i think, combo with PF and dont hurts our deck but opp a lot.
4 cabal therapy - like made for this deck. we disc bad cards and take adv from explorers or tokens
1/2 Diabolic intent - must in when we run recuring but even without it its great card for us - and helps a looot to search ideal cards.
1 Recurring Nightmare - produce sick adv
----
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run - great Land imo
3/4 Grove Burnwillows
X Fetches
X Badland
X Taiga
X Bayou
X forest
X Swamp
X mountain
It depends on mana in maindeck+sb
----
For now its 35/38 Must in cards+23 lands ( i think its enough) we have 53/56 cards.
---Cards that might be good in our deck and have to be take into consideration:
GSZ tool:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Acidic slime (+work with Recuring)
1 Thrun, the Last troll (great body and survive deed by regen)
Recuring tool:
1 Grave Titan
1 Faceless Butcher (ideal for Show and Tell reveal / can be tutored by DIntent)
Other Toy:
2 Thoughtseize
1/2 Hymn to Tourach
-----
SIDEBOARD:
-----
its harder to choose but we have a lot of options
-Carpet of flowers
-Slaughter Games
-Surgical Extraction/Extirpate ( i preffer surgical because we can use it after first discard)
-krosan grip
-golgari charm
-pyroblast/red elemental blast ( i propose 2/2 because i think we will take 4th of 1mana counter)
-Chains of mefistopheles - amazing card i think agains JaceDecks, Omnitell, Ant, Elves
-Ensnaring Bridge (great with kessig wolf run, we can attack weak creature then use Land to be more serious)
-Tajuru Preserver - against emraaaakul. good for GSZ bad - can be killed by pyroclasm
-Rakdos's Return - i love this card. if she resolve...nuts.

My List that I test now:
>>>CREATURE:13
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
>>>ARTIFACT:1
3 Sensei's Divining Top
>>>ENCHANTMENTS:4
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
>>>SPELLS:16
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Intent
>>>WALKERS:2
2 Liliana of the Veil
>>>LANDS:23
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers - great job with Recurring tool a lot of mana a lot of copy the work
SB: 2 Slaughter Games - i just love cut WinCon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction - like i said before great work with early discard
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

Still thinking about -1 Acidic Slime and -1Diabolic Intent and add main +2 thoughtseize. now im gonna test this build and try acidic in battle...
Whats is your optional build with Must In/Could be in?

[Ralf]

For players who prefer PunishingFit:

Whats is your optional build with Must In/Could be in?

Wow so many people joining the thread. Is it a TNN effect ?

Welcome to all.

The reason to play Punishing (even if I am usually posting about scape, I also have some good practise with PF list) is Thrun.

PF main plan is generally on the "Protect the Troll" plan.
Thrun HAS to be somewhere in the 75 (better main deck).

Against a lot of midrange/control deck, he will be your main kill condition.
Kessig will gain even more value against TNN.deck and you could mark my word here.

Have fun all, you made a good choice electing NicFit.
Read and read again Tao's primer and start testing !!!

[HardBrain]

Wow so many people joining the thread. Is it a TNN effect ?

Welcome to all.

The reason to play Punishing (even if I am usually posting about scape, I also have some good practise with PF list) is Thrun.

PF main plan is generally on the "Protect the Troll" plan.
Thrun HAS to be somewhere in the 75 (better main deck).

Against a lot of midrange/control deck, he will be your main kill condition.
Kessig will gain even more value against TNN.deck and you could mark my word here.

Have fun all, you made a good choice electing NicFit.
Read and read again Tao's primer and start testing !!!

Yea, i forgot about him in my list:D damn:D....Update: slime is to slow and kill our plan with Carpets. so i gonna -1slime +1thrun, alwo he works with KWolfRun

[kingtk3]

Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

Dark ritual.

If he's played led on their turn it's because he fears discard, thus he needs mana for the next turn.
He probably has a couple of ritual/petal and a infernal tutor and aims to ad nauseam next turn, so he'll hide it with brainstorm.

If you're playing against a skilled player he can keep the business and try to next level you, but it's unlikely.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[HardBrain]

Interesting Question...about strategy.

Opponent Win the roll.
He start with Fetch, land with U nd play Delver.
We draw put land then: we cast Explorer of Cabal first? what is your first move. i always have war in my head about this.

[jbone2016]

Interesting Question...about strategy.

Opponent Win the roll.
He start with Fetch, land with U nd play Delver.
We draw put land then: we cast Explorer of Cabal first? what is your first move. i always have war in my head about this.

Tropical= Vet (RUG tends to daze or even force Vets though)
Volcanic= Probably Vet but depends on the fetch
Tundra, Underground= Therapy to play around swords
Island= Probably r/u then so go Vet.
I'm trying to recall what I've done in this past and I think this want I have done.

[Tao]

Given a normal hand you should always play Therapy in that situation and name Brainstorm when it resolves. This has two advantages. The first advantage is that you would usually much rather have him Daze the Therapy than the Explorer. Of course this changes if you WANT your Explorer Dazed because you have a lot of mana and/or an additional Explorer but usually that is not the case.
The second advantage is that he is tapped out now and can't Brainstorm in response to fiddle with your Therapy.

When it resolves name Brainstorm: a) to avoid having to deal with him Brainstorming in response to Therapy next turn, b) because it is the best card in their deck and c) this makes it so he can't hide any multiples in his hand anymore.

An exception: If he played Tropical you should still play Therapy (because you really don't want your Explorer Dazed by RUG) but consider naming Stifle depending on how your hand looks so that he can't Stifle the Explorer trigger in response to Therapy next turn.

[Tao]

Tao, i like your list, and i made some my own changes. this is playable deck or destroy this deck and make him weak??:
GUYS
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
OPTIONS
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
MONEY
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run

1 Grave Titan
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles - love it vs elves/omnitell/jacedecks

List looks good.


I would make these changes:

Maindeck:
+ 1 Top
+ 1 GSZ
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold (or -1 Kessig Wolf Run)
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
- 2 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

I don't see a need for Krosan Grip though in a deck that plays 3 Decay and 3 Deeds AND in you case 2 Maelstrom Pulses AND GSZ for Acidic Slime. Is your meta somehow unique or what is the reason for this?
I would not play both Stronghold and Kessig Wolf Run. Choose whichever one you prefer and play 22 lands. I like Stronghold but most other experienced players prefer Wolf Run.
I would really recommend playing 4 Tops and 4 GSZs to max out on your odds of triggering Explorer in the first 2-3 turns. Also, both cards are amazing.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

Hi All, looking for some feedback. I have always played GWB Nic Fit in a rock style build. a lot of board control and sweet creatures.
I started playing the BUG Nic Fit list with Birthing Pod and had some good games but it has left me with a kind of meh feeling. It suffers from a lot of the problems that most birthing pod lists I've played in the past do. Namely that if you don't resolve a birthing pod early it's just a pile of value creatures.

I've looked at some Melira Pod lists and have come up with a bit of a brew that I'm looking to get some feed back on. This list is completely untested so I can't justify all of the cards in the list but some of the odd ones are there purely on the theoretical basis that they "might be good".


Creatures:27
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Fleecemane Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Bone Shredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Restoration Angel
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Spells:11
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod

Lands:22
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


I like the idea of Fleecemane Lion in a deck like this. A 3/3 for two is pretty good and the ability to become monstrous and dodge spot removal and wraths I feel is nothing to shrug at. Pontiff could be a good answer to True Name nemesis. I realize we have access to Deed but that doesn't always get drawn when it's needed. Pontiff at least offers a tutorable answer to it. Phrexian Metamorph seems like a no brainer in a format full of powerful creatures and equipments. Restoration Angel is another theoretical add. She should win fights with most creatures like Clique and being able to double up on value is never a bad thing. There are also 2 Gavony Township in the deck for the times when there is no birthing pod in play you can just get big and attack with creatures.

There is a slight urge to make this a five color deck and add Deceiver Exarch, Phantasmal Image and Zealous Conscripts to be able to pod up the chain multiple times in a turn. But again. this deck is completely untested and I am looking for initial feedback. maybe something I missed or hadn't thought of. Or if someone wants to build the deck and give it run and tell me how bad it is that is welcome too :wink:

I'm wondering if wall of blossoms is better than voice of resurgence or not. With the high creature count the token is probably big enough to make it worth running. But drawing a card is ok too. I also think even though you're playing a value-birthing pod deck you still want sigarda. It's one of the few things in junk colors that can kill a jace besides vindicate or pulse. I foresee a problem with the lion being that if you try to monstrosity it they can just swords it in response or otherwise remove it. However, a 4/4 indestructible hexproof guy is certainly nothing to sneeze at and at the very least plays good defense. If you get the window to do it after they tap out or something then sure, I can see it being good.

@Hardbrain, I think a few of the cards you listed as "must play" in punishing fire nic fit don't belong on the list. A second thragtusk is certainly not necessary and I've generally been unimpressed with the card. One is fine. It's embarrassing against batterskull or true name. In fact there's very few things in legacy that it matches up well against having only 3 toughness. I feel like most of the time it just says 4G, gain 5 life and leave a body behind in an attempt to stabilize. Diabolic intent is good in scapeshift builds because it gets your kill card but there's not a ton of great things to tutor up in punishing fit. Ideally what do you hope to get casting that card? I wouldn't play it over a 4th green sun, where less than 4 is not ideal. Recurring nightmare is cute, but again, I don't think punishing nic fit can really abuse that card to its full capacity and it's gotten much worse with DRS and Ooze, etc. I don't want to sound like the king of negativity here but faceless butcher is not a good card at all and dryad arbor has never been good in nic fit.

Lately I've been performing very poorly with Nic fit (I play the punishing fire version). I think I went 1-3 my last two events playing the deck. I lost to burn both times which generally should not happen. I guess I can write up a quick report of my last tournament, maybe you guys can give me some tips.

Round 1: Merfolk. He plays cursecatcher and says go. Turn two he adds a lord, which I punishing fire on turn three to avoid him saccing cursecatcher. He adds an adept to his board, and eventually another lord but the punishing fire engine takes over the game and anything he plays I kill pretty easily. A huntmaster shows up and takes over, flipping to kill an adept. Game two plays out similarly to game one, anything targetable I kill with punishing fire or abrupt decay, and he plays a TNN. I ramp with explorer by chumping one of his dudes and cast primeval titan. I grab more groves and punishing fire a kira twice to get it off the board. My lifetotal is so high so he holds back his TNN when he plays a second one and he double blocks the titan. I already had a huntmaster on board at this point and it flips when all he draws for the turn is a wasteland. The trample damage from the titan got him relatively low and I win the race with a bunch of creatures I had on board but I don't remember the specifics.

Round 2: Burn. This round was frustrating. Game one I rip apart his hand with cabal therapy/thoughtseize, trigger an explorer, and generally find an answer to any threat he plays like young pyromancer or grim lavamancer. Huntmaster shows up, I gain some life and eventually I kill him with it pretty fast since he took damage from price, barbarian ring, and flame rift. Game two I look at an opener with 5 lands, thragtusk, eternal witness. I figure I won't survive five turns to cast the tusk so I ship the hand back. The next two hands are light on lands and full of irrelevant cards for the matchup. Eventually I settle on four, an explorer, forest, top, and decay. I durdle a bit trying to find lands with top and die pretty fast to his decent hand. Game three I felt like tearing my hair out. I lead with thoughtseize, taking a price since my hand had some nonbasics. He had double rift bolt and plays that turn one so I don't take 2 with therapy. I strip a bolt with therapy, flash it back to take something else, and he casts the rest of his stuff on the following turn. At this point I'm pretty low and I keep looking with top at my top 3. The 3: pernicious deed x 2, garruk primal hunter. I play the garruk because I had nothing better to do and make a 3/3. I look again next turn, 2 deed 1 top. He kills me after I fail to find huntmaster or tusk or anything relevant with top for three or four turns.

Round 3: Deathblade. Turn one I thoughtseize and take a brainstorm. His hand has a jace so I make a point of not ramping him. Generally this deck doesn't have basics but he added two because of my deck and blood moon. He plays out a a couple of stoneforges and a strix and I kill them off with punishing fire. He casts a batterskull. Eventually I land a primal hunter, make a 3/3 and then on the following turn play thragtusk, drawing 5 cards with garruk. He scoops in a really unsportsmanlike manner. Sore loser. Game two he plays a pithing needle naming deed. Again, I wipe most of his board of anything relevant with p-fire including jace and we both get up to about 7 lands in play when he plays a batterskull. I decay the needle, and keep wiping away the batterskull with deeds for two turns in a row but academy ruins allows him to recurr it and cast it again every turn. I die to the token and a late TNN. He complains rudely that I'm topping too slow a couple of times during this game. If I was really slow playing we wouldn't have finished game three but I was playing fast even though he was winning. Game three he plays rest in peace, and takes out my punishing fire engine. He lands a meddling mage and names pernicious deed. He plays mystic, TNN, and fetches feast and famine. He equips the sword to meddling mage and I die pretty fast with no real way to wipe the board. We have a discussion about carpet of flowers and he tries to convince me that choke is better. It was pretty mediocre against him, I kept deeding it away. I'm thinking of cutting it.

Round 4: Elves. He has a slow start with a lanowar, then adds a deathrite and symbiote. I get the p-fire engine going but I can only ultimately kill one thing a turn and that's not enough so he runs me over with elves. Game two I keep a hand with golgari charm, deed, p-fire. I wipe away his elves and clean up with thragtusk. Game three he kills me turn 3 with craterhoof. I had deed in play but he had a decay anyway. My list, for reference:

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Thoughtseize

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm

[HardBrain]

List looks good.
I would make these changes:

Maindeck:
+ 1 Top
+ 1 GSZ
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold (or -1 Kessig Wolf Run)
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
- 2 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

.

About changes i made some changes before you answer. Thanks anyway. this is my current list.
I update my search tool to 2 intent and put out slime, they are to slow in my opinion. +1Butcher really helps with SnT also its good tool with recuring nightmare and Phyrexian Tower. its some kind of Mangara and Karakas ;)
i cut tusk and add GSZ like in your suggestion.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Swamp

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

[MD.Ghost]

I also switched to a new Testbuild with the Punishing Fire Engine. The current build doesn't need the full Playset, because my meta has more tempo decks (so 3 Abrupt Decay) and combo decks (storm and show&tell). So i aim for a nice surprising action to crush them all.

Some Testslots (compared to Tao's stock build)
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Deathrite Shaman

Kitchen Finks is for a better mana curve and as an additional X-3 Target for Zenith (better against Daze/Pierce). Sadly it isn't a real bomb (or has the power from huntsmaster, so maybe i switch back to another target). But Finks works also good with the next tool: Diabolic Intent. This Spell is also a Testslot, but shut work as an additional and valuable Sac.Outlet for our Explorer. In my theory it shoud fix my "3 instead of 4 Sensei's" Problem. In this case i also cutted 1 Deed. Garruk Relentless is a very flexible Planeswalker and in a 22-lands build i like him more compared to the big one. The single Deathrite Shaman is a swiss army knife and against Tempo and Combo he is a solid (and fast) drop, that either get fast killed or let you profit enough with his abilities.

Sideboard: 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Savannah - All Cardchoices aim clearly for a better Combo and Control (like Miracle) Matchup.


// Deck: Punishing Fit (60)

// Lands
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

[MasterHerC]

mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.

also (mostly @ralf) the random ooze will start in the maindeck, added for the 3rd huntmaster.
i'll also try out 3 therapy 1 thoughtseize main, with the 4th therapy in the sideboard, hope it'll do well.

[Ralf]

mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.

also (mostly @ralf) the random ooze will start in the maindeck, added for the 3rd huntmaster.
i'll also try out 3 therapy 1 thoughtseize main, with the 4th therapy in the sideboard, hope it'll do well.


Hey ! Nothing big just some "cute" tweaks to fight better against my "combo infested meta" without impacting too much the stock list.
Keep me posted about your results !! Wish you luck because sometimes you need luck to get through 3 S&T...

Natural order is "cute". IMHO.
As we don't have access to brainstorm, drawing into "insert your monster", is "rude". But, if someone want to test that tech, I will likely try with "Worldspine wurm" (with NO in SB, ofc).
Just in case I could, once in my lifetime, trounce hard a S&T player !!!

Talking about tech, I am thinking more and more about including a lone "Karakas" in Scape. I faced the other day a miserable situation where a resolved S&T helped me to put into play my beautiful Prime which had to cope with the mighty Emrakul. That's all she wrote as I died 2 turns later...
Including a lone karakas here improves our S&T MU by 2 cards, either you could have karakas in hand when S&T is played or Primetime to fetch for karakas !!!
Well nothing big but you know the usual blabla about "two birds, one stone".

[Tao]

Some Testslots (compared to Tao's stock build)
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Deathrite Shaman

I'm not in love with DR Shaman because it usually gets killed by cards that would otherwise give you a 2 for 1 like Bolt or Swords or Decay and I think trading like that is a way to rob yourself of a nice free advantage over your opponents. But on the other hand I understand that DR Shaman might be powerful and cheap enough to be worth it.

I like both Diabolic Intent and Garruk Relentless a lot. I will try the 3 Top / 1 Intent setup myself and both Garruks (Relentless and PH) are perfectly viable maindeck choices.

The only choice I don't like is Finks over Huntmaster. Finks are better against Bolt but Huntmaster is better against Swords, Decay and Jace. And if the creature lives and the game stalls then Huntmaster really shines.


About changes i made some changes before you answer. Thanks anyway. this is my current list.
I update my search tool to 2 intent and put out slime, they are to slow in my opinion. +1Butcher really helps with SnT also its good tool with recuring nightmare and Phyrexian Tower. its some kind of Mangara and Karakas ;)
i cut tusk and add GSZ like in your suggestion.


Recurring Nightmare with Diabolic Intent is an interaction that I was not aware of to be honest. It was most likely done before but I only catch up to it now. I do like the idea in Punishing Nic Fit and I will try it.

I would cut either the Stronghold or the Wolf Run. 22 lands are enough but you need all the colored lands. Another card I would cut is the Faceless Butcher. Maybe a pet card of yours? It just seems so bad. Maybe adding another Witness (really good with Nightmare, too) and a Thoughtseize or a Liliana?


mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.


I am not the expert on Scapewish but I think Order was tried and dismissed by quite a couple of people.

[Arianrhod]

Correct. I (and others) tried Natural Order as a wish target and it was pretty bad. I suppose that there's some possible hybrid version lurking out there that runs a couple of Orders main and one side to wish for, but then you run into the problem that we have no way to put Progenitals back if we draw him. You'd have to run something like Hoof, which is castable but not usually good enough for our deck. And even then, a sideboard Order suffers from the same problem as things like Haunting Echoes, Tsunami, and From the Ashes -- if you can Wish -> cast NO, why aren't you just winning with Scapeshift instead?

[Ralf]

if you can Wish -> cast NO, why aren't you just winning with Scapeshift instead?

Well, I guess you can wish + NO a turn earlier (one mana earlier to be exact) than scape. But hell yeah, better to kill with scape in this configuration !
Nevertheless, you can also wish with 2 or 3 lands and NO during the next turn.

[hymntotourcock]

Thank you to everyone who helped me with the Storm comments. I would reply to all of them separately but time is tight today.
I have a tourney in like 5 hours and I would appreciate some last minute criticism for my list. It's obviously geared toward combo, but I've got substantial creature removal as well. Not going to bother posting the lands because they're pretty stock.
I'm mostly concerned with having my SB balanced with my main because of the Slaughter Games. I can bring them out against fair decks and bring in 2 Deluge. I also cut 1 Golgari Charm because of the Deluges (mostly use the charms for -1/-1 anyway). I also upped the Surgicals to 3 because they are a real powerhouse against a T1 Storm win. Sure bro, your spells have flashback, but I would like for your Rituals to go away. Whoops! They also give me more of a chance against Dredge, a deck I'm not at all comfortable with. I can also add more permanent destruction to get rid of stupid Meddling Mage or RIP. RIP really fucks my day up.
I'm feeling pretty good about my SB; does anyone think it looks a bit spread thin?
Thanks for the last minute help!

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Games

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Eternal Witness

[HardBrain]

from post to post i think we try to build nic fit better and better but it going to be near like Jund...punishing, lilianas, mass of discard...
Only I feel that Nic Fit is an deck which takes adv from sacrifice? Intent, Cabal Therapy, Recuring Nightmare?

My today test say:D....1x Deathrite Shaman (GSZ) is ok and useful.
its Much better when we play 2 liliana 2 thoughtseize 4 cabal therapy
im still thinking to play 1 recuring nightmare and 1 diabolic Intent.

Anyone play Nightmare too?
About SB: carpet of flovers are amazing !! great works with our deck.
to be honest my SB works brilliant.
3 Carpet of flowers
2 slaughter games
2 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
2 chains of mephistopheles

[Arianrhod]

from post to post i think we try to build nic fit better and better but it going to be near like Jund...punishing, lilianas, mass of discard...
Only I feel that Nic Fit is an deck which takes adv from sacrifice? Intent, Cabal Therapy, Recuring Nightmare?

My today test say:D....1x Deathrite Shaman (GSZ) is ok and useful.
its Much better when we play 2 liliana 2 thoughtseize 4 cabal therapy
im still thinking to play 1 recuring nightmare and 1 diabolic Intent.

Anyone play Nightmare too?
About SB: carpet of flovers are amazing !! great works with our deck.
to be honest my SB works brilliant.
3 Carpet of flowers
2 slaughter games
2 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
2 chains of mephistopheles

Chains of Mephistopheles is a straight trap. I don't have time for one of my usual book-length dreadnoughts on why -- but if you search the thread I'm sure you'll find it, since it's been brought up before. Some of the old-timers in here might be able to give you a quick conceptualization for why Chains is a bad card.

[HardBrain]

Chains of Mephistopheles is a straight trap. I don't have time for one of my usual book-length dreadnoughts on why -- but if you search the thread I'm sure you'll find it, since it's been brought up before. Some of the old-timers in here might be able to give you a quick conceptualization for why Chains is a bad card.

ok. and what do you think about playing nightmare and diabolic. punishing fit is only budget jund or we can take maximum from our deck. i think making advantage from CiP creatures like Master...Tusk and witness for example or which card is must in like i post before. i still fight with myself about good decklist. i wrote that it will be first deck in my hands made by myself (my own cards) so i want buy cards to be owner of working deck...not pile of good creature....:(

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I don't know why, but I like having Echoing Truth in the main for BUG versions over Maelstrom Pulse, even if it doesn't deal with most things permanently. I guess it has to do with it being 1 less CMC, blue and only blue, and an instant that still buys us time if we need it against almost any deck (or so my theorycrafting leads me to believe).

EDIT: Of course, I sold my original list during my hiatus and am working on rebuilding it, so it might be awhile before I can test my crackpot theories.

[pfiremc13]

If you want to buy time at instant speed, use abrupt decay.

If you want to be able to kill anything, use pulse.

It's not worth it to use spot removal that's a 0-for-1.

[Arianrhod]

3-0 atm at the 40 duals 40 fetches event. Beat death and taxes, then alex bertoncini on the stream, then bugstill. 5 more rounds yet....need to win 3 more to draw in.

[HardBrain]

3-0 atm at the 40 duals 40 fetches event. Beat death and taxes, then alex bertoncini on the stream, then bugstill. 5 more rounds yet....need to win 3 more to draw in.

go go go !! post decklist if i can ask. and where is stream?

[Ayotte]

3-0 atm at the 40 duals 40 fetches event. Beat death and taxes, then alex bertoncini on the stream, then bugstill. 5 more rounds yet....need to win 3 more to draw in.

I bet it's fun to get 3 lands in play on one turn against Alex.

[Arianrhod]

Am on scape with -1 ashes and -1 rev silence in favor of 2 massacres. 5-0 atm.....need one more to draw in

[jbone2016]

go go go !! post decklist if i can ask. and where is stream?

Pretty sure it is http://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure

[Arianrhod]

6-1. Hopefully can draw in.

[HardBrain]

6-1. Hopefully can draw in.

Kevin is on stream now?!?!?!?!? vs BUG ???

go go go g!!!!

[jbone2016]

ugh. having to play against TES master bryant cook.

[jbone2016]

Looks like a BUG fit deck made it top 8. Looks like a reaper of wilds in the deck. Curious about the list. BUG living wish version?

[Arianrhod]

Looks like a BUG fit deck made it top 8. Looks like a reaper of wilds in the deck. Curious about the list. BUG living wish version?

He's a local of mine. He literally lives like ten minutes from me lol

[EpicLevelCommoner]

If you want to buy time at instant speed, use abrupt decay.

If you want to be able to kill anything, use pulse.

It's not worth it to use spot removal that's a 0-for-1.

While I agree with ya on this in regards to fair decks, I believe simplifying the math behind bounce into '0 for 1' is misleading.

Any removal's card advantage value can be approximated using the following formula:

I.0 + I.1 / 1

Where I.0 is equal to the initial investment to play the creatures preremoval and I.1 is equal to the post removal investment to play those creatures again. StP a Misthollow Griffin is the same deal.

Against fair decks, its obvious bounce doesn't help a bit. But unfair decks, that require heavy initial investment in the first place, it does help.

Tldr: Truth bad against fair decks, good against unfair decks.

[Fizzeler]

Looks like a BUG fit deck made it top 8. Looks like a reaper of wilds in the deck. Curious about the list. BUG living wish version?

I guess it does in BUG what you want Sigarda to do in Junk, still aren't there other options in that slot that are better like Jace?

[mini1337s]

Any word on the BUG list?

[Megadeus]

I guess it does in BUG what you want Sigarda to do in Junk, still aren't there other options in that slot that are better like Jace?

I mean it is a Green Sunnable threat that can protect itself with a relevant ability. Im not sure how Jace is comparable.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I mean it is a Green Sunnable threat that can protect itself with a relevant ability. Im not sure how Jace is comparable.

True, Jace is kinda a bad comparison. But what makes Reaper better than say, Thrun?

The Scry ability is nifty though: might allow for some shenanigans with Pod/Nightmare.

[Megadeus]

True, Jace is kinda a bad comparison. But what makes Reaper better than say, Thrun?

The Scry ability is nifty though: might allow for some shenanigans with Pod/Nightmare.

True. I can dig it.

[Fizzeler]

True, Jace is kinda a bad comparison. But what makes Reaper better than say, Thrun?

The Scry ability is nifty though: might allow for some shenanigans with Pod/Nightmare.

I guess the deathtouch allows it to kill Goyfs as well.

I understand Jace is a bad comparison, but there are many other 4 drops that can be slotted there, not arguing against Reaper at all just that what do you cut to add it?

Scry is definitely nice allows some nice Nightmare interactions (Pod + Reaper scrys then tutors), I also like how well it works with Therapy

[HardBrain]

so? he made top8...but he end on which place? and what version of NF.

[jbone2016]

so? he made top8...but he end on which place? and what version of NF.

Deadeye BUG with living wish.

[HardBrain]

Deadeye BUG with living wish.

anyone have this list?? mhmm am so curious ;)

[kavaki]

list will be up in a couple of days according to the store.

[HardBrain]

list will be up in a couple of days according to the store.

ok thx.

one more question. anybody is still in testing bgw nic fit?

[jbone2016]

ok thx.

one more question. anybody is still in testing bgw nic fit?

I had been on a Junk Wish version before switching to scapewish about a month ago.

[Fizzeler]

ok thx.

one more question. anybody is still in testing bgw nic fit?

I have been playing a Pod list for quite some time

[tons of fun]

hey guys i am the one playing the bug fit deck that top eight i got 5-8 im pretty sure it was 6th

[tons of fun]

4 veteran
2 coiling oricale
1 baleful strix
1 feirce empath
1 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks
1 chameleon colossus
1 venser shaper savant
1 mystic snake
1 thragtusk
1 reaper of the wilds
1 deadeye navigator
1 frost titan
1 consecrated sphinx

2 sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
3 green sun zenith
1 diabolic intent
3 living wish
1 recuring nightmare
2 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicous deed
2 jace the mindscuplter

3 bayou
3 tropical island
1 underground sea
3 island
3 forest
2 swamp
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
1 phyrexian tower

side/
3 mindbreak traps
2 abrupt decay
2 carpet of flowers
1 eternal witness
2 glen elandra archmage
1 venser shaper savant
1 deadeye naigator
1 high market
1 bajoka bog
1 valrath stronghold

[mini1337s]

4 veteran
2 coiling oricale
1 baleful strix
1 feirce empath
1 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks
1 chameleon colossus
1 venser shaper savant
1 mystic snake
1 thragtusk
1 reaper of the wilds
1 deadeye navigator
1 frost titan
1 consecrated sphinx

2 sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
3 green sun zenith
1 diabolic intent
3 living wish
1 recuring nightmare
2 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicous deed
2 jace the mindscuplter

3 bayou
3 tropical island
1 underground sea
3 island
3 forest
2 swamp
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
1 phyrexian
What was your Sideboard like? Curious as to your wish targets.

[tons of fun]

i just re edited it had to get something

[tons of fun]

the reaper is a flex spot i am throwing around ideas in my head right now with nath, havinghoul lich, jarad are some of the things i have been toying with lately

[kavaki]

The big question I had: Your on BUG fit, so why no Pod?

Just more for perspective for me.....

[tons of fun]

the reason or no pod it is more about the soul bound and a good portion of my deck. the pod doesnt flow with how it plays as much

[Fizzeler]

Deadeye Navigator seems sweet, only card I dislike is Chameleon Colossus I think I would just have Thrun in that slot.

As far as 6 drops goes would Prime Speaker fit with the Deadeye? Not sure what to cut for it possibly Sphinx.

I have not delved much into a non-pod BUG variant seems like there is a lot of room for exploration

[Megadeus]

Deadeye Navigator seems sweet, only card I dislike is Chameleon Colossus I think I would just have Thrun in that slot.

As far as 6 drops goes would Prime Speaker fit with the Deadeye? Not sure what to cut for it possibly Sphinx.

I have not delved much into a non-pod BUG variant seems like there is a lot of room for exploration

I don't think exploration would be very good in this deck... ;)

[tons of fun]

Deadeye Navigator seems sweet, only card I dislike is Chameleon Colossus I think I would just have Thrun in that slot.

As far as 6 drops goes would Prime Speaker fit with the Deadeye? Not sure what to cut for it possibly Sphinx.

I have not delved much into a non-pod BUG variant seems like there is a lot of room for exploration

i have had this build for quit awhile 1) the colossus is better then thrune as far as his combat he beat batterskull and gets through most of jund and bug decks i tried he is a way to finish the game especially when u can make him a 1024/1024 which can happen i have done it yes thrun is protected against more but colossus is just a power beats and he has come through time and time again.

2) prime speaker sucks for what this deck does con is a way to keep ur hand filed and plus con doesnt need another creature to be good remember she is only a 2/2 if u have nothing else out were con can put the game on a complete different track espically versus a clique with a sword attched i have already tried the prime speaker route

[tons of fun]

right now my side bored is my biggest problem trying bunch of different routes on it to make it better, the spots im not happy with are the mindbreaks and the reaper right now im looking at trying nath and havinghoul to see how they play

[GtF]

right now my side bored is my biggest problem trying bunch of different routes on it to make it better, the spots im not happy with are the mindbreaks and the reaper right now im looking at trying nath and havinghoul to see how they play

If you're looking for combo help, I've been pretty happy in the BUG Pod version with Riptide Pilferers (I run Force of Wills as well but you wouldn't necessarily need to run both). Glen Elendra Archmage is of course really awesome as well.

[Fizzeler]

i have had this build for quit awhile 1) the colossus is better then thrune as far as his combat he beat batterskull and gets through most of jund and bug decks i tried he is a way to finish the game especially when u can make him a 1024/1024 which can happen i have done it yes thrun is protected against more but colossus is just a power beats and he has come through time and time again.

2) prime speaker sucks for what this deck does con is a way to keep ur hand filed and plus con doesnt need another creature to be good remember she is only a 2/2 if u have nothing else out were con can put the game on a complete different track espically versus a clique with a sword attched i have already tried the prime speaker route

Fair on both accounts, colossus does beat quite hard

I probably should have assumed since you we're trying reaper that you tried Prime Speaker and found it to be lackluster

I can see testing various cards in reapers slot

I am struggling what to run between Master Of The Wild Hunt, second Restoration Angel, and other 4 drops

I also have been testing Blood Baron and it has been quite solid

[HardBrain]

Good Morning guys ;)
im thinking about BGW...i found this list and thinking that its present version or anyone of you have more fresh list?
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Primeval Bounty
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Viscera Seer
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Archangel of Thune

[Arianrhod]

Brief report from the ToA 40 duals / 40 fetches event on Saturday.

Note: this event was streamed here: http://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure

My match vs Bertoncini r2 is there, as is my interview thereafter, and then I pop in later for game 3 vs Shardless in round 7. Pretty sure Kyle's match vs Mike Cutrone in the semifinals is also in there somewhere.

I don't have my notes with me, so I'm going to be pretty brief. If anyone has questions about anything in specific, I'll consult my notes later and respond with the information.

R1: Death and Taxes

My opponent is nervous and flips a basic plains out of his deck while shuffling. He notes that he's a friend of a friend of mine, and I realize that he's playing my friend's Death and taxes deck because of the art of the basic that he flipped. I call SFM blind on Therapy and hit one. He Revokers Deed, but otherwise doesn't do anything of relevance and dies.

Game two he god-hands the shit out of me. T1 Port+Vial, t2 pass, port you, vial in mom, t3 port you, vial in Thalia, waste you, t4 port you + stoneforge + vial in serra avenger, t5 second port, etc etc. You can see how this went.

Game three he made a board state, I massacred it, and then I killed him.

R2: Bertoncini on camera vs Deathblade.

As soon as I saw the pairing go up on screen, I knew it would be a feature match. The irony was too strong for it not to be.

You can see the matchup for yourself in the stream. It was a pretty textbook crushing. He didn't draw a black source (with 3 thoughtseizes in hand) for a number of turns....but as it turned out, if he had drawn that black source and thoughtseized me, he would have died later (and not had things to shuffle away to a powerful lategame Brainstorm), so.....bleh. He Wasted both of my valakuts, which meant I couldn't shift him out...luckily Scape's aggro plan is pretty strong. Slaughter Games was a 4-mana Duress to take out his Stoneforged-for Batterskull, which was fine. I had to Deluge for 10 at one point to wipe his board, which SUCKED. Thanks, Jitte, you fucker. Thankfully I had the life to spend.

Game two I had one of the sweetest sequences I think I've ever done with the deck, at like storm 5. I was dead on board, with 5 lands + carpet + top in play and Shift in hand. Drew Vet for turn, saw Wish with Top, drew Wish, played Vet, Wished for Innocent Blood, cast it, Shift, kill you.

R3: Bugstill

He mulls to 6. He doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

Game two: he mulls to 5, doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

R4: Punishing Jund

See above without the mulligans. Had to fight through some skanks (lilianas), but otherwise was pretty easy both games. Primeval Titan killed him game 1.

R5: RUG Delver

He wins the die roll. It doesn't matter, and I kill him.

Game two he mulls to 3 to find a land. The result is as expected by both of us.

R6: Elves

He makes some elves. I Explorer / Therapy. Blind call on Natural Order, hit, flashback for his Craterhoof leaving him with 0 cards in hand. Next turn I can Wish->Pryoclasm, and be firmly in the driver's seat with an eye towards winning in 1-2 turns. He draws his 2nd Craterhoof and kills me.

Game 2 I mull to 5 looking for interaction. I eventually keep Explorer, Slaughter, 3 lands. I literally draw a land every turn for the rest of the game until I die (he Thoughtseizes my Games, to add insult to injury).

R7: Shardless BUG

Game one he goes nuts and kills me.

Game two I go nuts and kill him. He Forces my Shift, but I have REB.

Game three is on camera. Apparently someone in the stream chat thought that I was kind of shady when I executed the kill. To be fair, I already had everything sequenced out in my head, and didn't really think that he actually had interaction. My opponent was very zoned-out and non-responsive, so I just autopiloted. It's also the third time that we've played, and as most people who've met me know, I'm pretty friendly and laid back -- if he'd said slow down or indicated that he was going to respond to anything, I would've backed up if at all possible to allow it. Hell, when I flashbacked the Therapy, I couldn't even remember what the last card in his hand was -- he just flipped it into the graveyard. I never even actually named, lol. I think we both realized about the same time that he actually DID have interaction and could have stopped me from winning that turn, but it was way too late by then.

Also, if he did exile my Therapy as he should have done, I was floating a Deed on top of my deck, so it's not like I was exactly worried. He pointed out afterwards that his Visions was going to to go off in a turn or two, which would've got him back in the game, but I'm less convinced. There's a pretty strong chance that he would've just drawn discard or lands, and it wouldn't have mattered.

Ryan also remains the only person who has ever beaten me with Shardless when I'm on Scapewish. I've never figured out what it is that he does differently than the average Shardless player that makes it actually a challenge vs him. -shrug-

I'm 6-1 at this point, and can safely draw in.

R8: Bryant Cook with TES

Unfortunately for me, Bryant and my Elves opponent from earlier had agreed that if they ID'd in round 7, they would both play Round 8 so as to secure the play/draw in the to 8. So, Bryant decided to play it out.

Game one his hand was pretty mediocre, so he decided to go into Diminishing Returns. His Returns shit on him pretty hard, giving him a subpar hand including two fetches while exiling the only other fetchable land in his deck. He Silence-walked me for a few turns, but eventually ran out. I Therapied him, and then stole a page from his book and showed him the Scapeshift.

Game two I punted. I had a Thoughtseize, and chose correctly. He had a slow hand that used multiple Infernal Tutors to get multiple Rite of Flames, to go into Past in Flames. I had a Burning Wish, and could have resolved it, but I made the crucial mistake of -not- sideboarding out a Cabal Therapy like I virtually always do. This meant that my Wish couldn't find disruption (I'd boarded in the thoughtseizes). If I'd been able to wish for Therapy to hit his Rite of Flames, it would've bought me at least 2-3 turns, which would have likely been all I would have needed.

Game three I mulled to 4 looking for interaction / lands. I kept Therapy, Therapy, Explorer, Wood Elves. Far from wonderful, but if I hit a bayou or a fetch, I was in business. He Probes me, and draws the card he needed to kill me on turn 1. The top card of my deck was a Verdant Catacombs.

That loss knocked me into 10th place, good for a Taiga and a Foothills.

Sucked to run that well and then not get top 8 for it, but such is life (my life, in particular, it seems). At the end of the day, though, I can't blame anyone else for the loss against Bryant but myself. If I'd sideboarded correctly, I would've been fine and probably taken the match 2-0, securing a very high seed in the top 8.

--------

For this event I cut the From the Ashes and the Reverent Silence, in favor of a pair of Massacres to help shore up the various UWx True-Name decks just a tad, while also having a splash impact on Death and Taxes and other, fringier decks like Maverick that aren't usually a problem anyway.

While being able to Wish for Massacre was sweet, not being able to board it in vs Elves and it not being relevant vs TES did not help for the two times where I needed it the most. This means that the 2 Massacres are probably going to get trimmed down to 1, with the free slot possibly becoming a third Thoughtseize. Could also be a miser Golgari Charm, but that doesn't help vs storm. There's a chance that there's some wish target that I'm missing that it could be. There have been a few times where I've wanted the Reanimate back in the board, but I don't think that we're there yet. I'm much more worried about putting in an extra card for vs combo.

Not sure if you guys saw the statistics article on Channelfireball or not, but the author listed 11 archetypes as composing 75% of the metagame at the moment. We're favored against 9 of the 11, and the other two (Elves and ANT) are winnable based on their version, our version, and each decks' draws/hand even if they aren't favorable. It's a very, very good time to be playing Nic Fit of any variety.

[tons of fun]

Fair on both accounts, colossus does beat quite hard

I probably should have assumed since you we're trying reaper that you tried Prime Speaker and found it to be lackluster

I can see testing various cards in reapers slot

I am struggling what to run between Master Of The Wild Hunt, second Restoration Angel, and other 4 drops

I also have been testing Blood Baron and it has been quite solid

try havinghoul lich it seems pretty functional with having the ability to recast all ur shit from ur grave

[kubalonek]

I played exactly the list that I posted a page back before the event. I'll copypasta it forward in the interests of expediency for readers.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse



Arianrhod did you applied any other changes to your list except adding two massacres in the sideboard in place of Reverent Silence / Toxic Deluge? What about this Rakdos's Return. Do you still use it?

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod did you applied any other changes to your list except adding two massacres in the sideboard in place of Reverent Silence / Toxic Deluge? What about this Rakdos's Return. Do you still use it?

Deluge was still present, and won't be leaving anytime soon.

Return got cut a while back.

I updated the list in my sig for Scapewish -- it's up to present day, although I made note of the 1 open slot in the sideboard since I'm not convinced that the 3rd Thoughtseize is really what where we want to go.

[tons of fun]

i dont think the seize is what u want kevin

[MrIggins]

I've liked 1 Massacre in the board over my 2nd Pyroclasm. If we think Reverent Silence is cuttable then I'll probably replace it with the 2nd Pyroclasm again- as you mentioned, having access to Massacre against TNN is awesome, it's generally a pretty good card in the metagame and I don't think it's bad to have, but not being able to bring it in vs Elves is a beating. Pyroclasm continues to be impressive, and I'm still really liking the plan of bringing them in against creature decks while still being able to Wish for Deluge (and Massacre in some cases). Who knows. I don't really think the 3rd Thoughtseize is where we want to be but it's never going to be useless and I don't have anything better in mind. However I do think the 2nd Pyroclasm is going to be better than the 1st Golgari Charm.

[Arianrhod]

I've liked 1 Massacre in the board over my 2nd Pyroclasm. If we think Reverent Silence is cuttable then I'll probably replace it with the 2nd Pyroclasm again- as you mentioned, having access to Massacre against TNN is awesome, it's generally a pretty good card in the metagame and I don't think it's bad to have, but not being able to bring it in vs Elves is a beating. Pyroclasm continues to be impressive, and I'm still really liking the plan of bringing them in against creature decks while still being able to Wish for Deluge (and Massacre in some cases). Who knows. I don't really think the 3rd Thoughtseize is where we want to be but it's never going to be useless and I don't have anything better in mind. However I do think the 2nd Pyroclasm is going to be better than the 1st Golgari Charm.

Not going to lie. One of the main reasons I don't want to add another Pyroclasm is because I don't think that I'll ever find another 7th edition German foil Pyroclasm. Ever. =(

[MrIggins]

Not going to lie. One of the main reasons I don't want to add another Pyroclasm is because I don't think that I'll ever find another 7th edition German foil Pyroclasm. Ever. =(

That is a valid reason. German Portal is on ebay though, obviously it's not as nice but it's still pretty cool.

But yeah I definitely get that.

[Megadeus]

So I randomly have gotten the itch to play this deck again and incidentally also just won a trop on eBay. For BUG pod lists, is force a necessity?

[pfiremc13]

While I agree with ya on this in regards to fair decks, I believe simplifying the math behind bounce into '0 for 1' is misleading.

Any removal's card advantage value can be approximated using the following formula:

I.0 + I.1 / 1

Where I.0 is equal to the initial investment to play the creatures preremoval and I.1 is equal to the post removal investment to play those creatures again. StP a Misthollow Griffin is the same deal.

Against fair decks, its obvious bounce doesn't help a bit. But unfair decks, that require heavy initial investment in the first place, it does help.

Tldr: Truth bad against fair decks, good against unfair decks.

If you want a card that's only good against combo deck, run good combo hate. The echoing truths are really not going to do very much against a tendrils for 20.


right now my side bored is my biggest problem trying bunch of different routes on it to make it better, the spots im not happy with are the mindbreaks and the reaper right now im looking at trying nath and havinghoul to see how they play

Describe how the mindbreaks have been working. What are they good at? Why don't you like them?


Good Morning guys ;)
im thinking about BGW...i found this list and thinking that its present version or anyone of you have more fresh list?


There's a more updated thune fit list here:

http://mythicgameselmira.com/article/updatingthune.html


There are other potential routes you could take with GBW. Non-pod, pod without thune combo, etc. I'd be happy to work with you on thune fit; otherwise you can talk to other people who might know more about other versions of GBW.

[GtF]

So I randomly have gotten the itch to play this deck again and incidentally also just won a trop on eBay. For BUG pod lists, is force a necessity?

Forces are nice but I don't think they're completely necessary. A mixture of discard and more Glen Elendra Archmages could probably do the trick a good percentage of the time. You could also try Mindbreak Trap or Arcane Lab.

I'm trying out a slight white splash tonight in BUG Pod, I'll let you know how it goes.

[MasterHerC]

nice report, already watched rd2.

i like my 1-of massacre in the wishboard, as reverent silence gave me some turn-arounds against sneak/show and omni-tell, killing their leylines and against countertop managing to take down rest in peace and counterbalance.

[uncletiggy]

Has either crovax been explored since tnns printing kills explorers and the white ones lord effect could be relevant in thune pod lists

[Fizzeler]

Brief report from the ToA 40 duals / 40 fetches event on Saturday.

Note: this event was streamed here: http://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure

Report

Not sure if you guys saw the statistics article on Channelfireball or not, but the author listed 11 archetypes as composing 75% of the metagame at the moment. We're favored against 9 of the 11, and the other two (Elves and ANT) are winnable based on their version, our version, and each decks' draws/hand even if they aren't favorable. It's a very, very good time to be playing Nic Fit of any variety.
Very nice report, sad to hear you got Cooked :frown:

try havinghoul lich it seems pretty functional with having the ability to recast all ur shit from ur grave

If I was running BUG I would definitely consider it, but being Junk kinda throws it out

[HardBrain]

http://mythicgameselmira.com/article/updatingthune.html

There are other potential routes you could take with GBW. Non-pod, pod without thune combo, etc. I'd be happy to work with you on thune fit; otherwise you can talk to other people who might know more about other versions of GBW.

ok i am glad that i can work with you to build competitive BGW thune list. I think there are many interactions which are enough to get easy win. I like this deck because we have many answers against combo like gaddock (GSZ) or Cannonist (Wish). in this mix of colour we can reach many combo or answers in deck so we are able to make huge edge. hope that we will build sth c0mpetitive:)

[tons of fun]

If you want a card that's only good against combo deck, run good combo hate. The echoing truths are really not going to do very much against a tendrils for 20.



Describe how the mindbreaks have been working. What are they good at? Why don't you like them?



There's a more updated thune fit list here:

http://mythicgameselmira.com/article/updatingthune.html


There are other potential routes you could take with GBW. Non-pod, pod without thune combo, etc. I'd be happy to work with you on thune fit; otherwise you can talk to other people who might know more about other versions of GBW.


well i had then in for against ad nusam decks keeping then on top with the top and drawing them when they are needed but there too narrow of a function for what my list does my deck i like cuz there free i just barely us them

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Just thought of something cute for the sideboard of BUG Lists: Melira, Sylovk Outcast with Glen Elendra Archmage. The biggest problem I had pre-hiatus against combo wasn't the initial blowout, but the fact that it took so long after "stabilizing" to win that they just came back with a vengeance. Archmage+Outcast helps in that regard.

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Swamp

15 Side
4 Force of Will
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mind Break Trap
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [Flex Slot]

[TheArchitect]

Congrats on the finish Kevin.

I know you love a good slaughter games, but what about running 2 thoughtseize in that slot in the MD and moving games to the SB. Games is really bad in some matchups while thoughtseize basically never is.

[tons of fun]

Just thought of something cute for the sideboard of BUG Lists: Melira, Sylovk Outcast with Glen Elendra Archmage. The biggest problem I had pre-hiatus against combo wasn't the initial blowout, but the fact that it took so long after "stabilizing" to win that they just came back with a vengeance. Archmage+Outcast helps in that regard.

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Swamp

15 Side
4 Force of Will
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mind Break Trap
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [Flex Slot]

i like some of this idk about the snaps really thats might be seeing some action with me but the brainstorms didnt work very well alot of draw but less things to do with it

[EpicLevelCommoner]

i like some of this idk about the snaps really thats might be seeing some action with me but the brainstorms didnt work very well alot of draw but less things to do with it

True: Snaps are really a weak point, and truth be told the only reason I'm running them (and formerly Echoing Truth) is to up my blue count G2 and G3 for Force of Will if I need to bring them in. Not too sure what would work better: maybe Archaeomancer?

Brainstorms are good just because of all the shuffling Nic Fit does in general: there has been a lot of trials where I could see at least 1-of every card in my library thanks to JMS, Brainstorm, and Top digging and Explorer, Fetchland, Prime-Time, Intent, and GSZ shuffling by turn 6.

[tons of fun]

True: Snaps are really a weak point, and truth be told the only reason I'm running them (and formerly Echoing Truth) is to up my blue count G2 and G3 for Force of Will if I need to bring them in. Not too sure what would work better: maybe Archaeomancer?

Brainstorms are good just because of all the shuffling Nic Fit does in general: there has been a lot of trials where I could see at least 1-of every card in my library thanks to JMS, Brainstorm, and Top digging and Explorer, Fetchland, Prime-Time, Intent, and GSZ shuffling by turn 6.



ok but the force idk either just cuz the fact u are two for oning urself, and the fact is u can't recure them

[mini1337s]

Just thought of something cute for the sideboard of BUG Lists: Melira, Sylovk Outcast with Glen Elendra Archmage. The biggest problem I had pre-hiatus against combo wasn't the initial blowout, but the fact that it took so long after "stabilizing" to win that they just came back with a vengeance. Archmage+Outcast helps in that regard.

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Swamp

15 Side
4 Force of Will
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mind Break Trap
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 [Flex Slot]
Perhaps Regrowth would be better than Snapcaster Mage in the main? It doesn't help your Blue count for FoW out of the side, but it gives you a lot more flexibility. There is some downside to sorcery speed and not getting a body, but being about to bring back Deed or a card like Thragtusk seems pretty huge.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Perhaps Regrowth would be better than Snapcaster Mage in the main? It doesn't help your Blue count for FoW out of the side, but it gives you a lot more flexibility. There is some downside to sorcery speed and not getting a body, but being about to bring back Deed or a card like Thragtusk seems pretty huge.

At that point, I'd just run more Witnesses ;). I'm liking a 2-1 split between Archaeomancer and Eternal Witness though, especially since Archaeomancer costs the same CMC as GSZ for Witness. Plus it isn't necessarily dead game 1 with 4 Brainstorm, 2 Decay, 2 Pulse, 4 GSZ, 1 Intent, and 4 Therapy.

Still trying to figure out what to put for that flex slot in the side: any suggestions?

[Nithkar]

the reason or no pod it is more about the soul bound and a good portion of my deck. the pod doesnt flow with how it plays as much

I found out the same when i tried to play with Arianrhod Deadeye fit list, but didn't liked to rely on Empath to come across the engine. I then tried pod and felt the same as you. But seeing your deck made an idea strike my mind, since i'm currently toying with an BUGW Pod Moat list: what do you guys think of poding Reveillark into Deadeye?

Theoretically, we could bring any 2 of our previous pod chain targets back, then pair with deadeye to an amazing lock. And being a BUGW list, that would mean mystic snake, Glen Elendra, pontiff, harmonic sliver, strix, witness, abyssal gatekeeper, bone shreder, all for a board lock or card advantage.

But i have been having problems with the manabase, as it gets a little stretchy. Adding a fourth color made me reduce the number of fetches traditionally used on pod list to 6 instead of 8, which made deathrites a little less reliable and thus resulting on an addition of one land and a slightly slower deck. With this, i have less of the already scarce space that pod demands so much. And, with less fetches, the stretchy manabase and less space, i found difficult to manage library manipulation (brainstorm, SDT, i really don't know how and if to fit them in there).

Second, i really fear this build up being too much vulnerable to GY hate, and to exiling creatures in general. Maybe the fact that reveillark bring back 2 creatures can compensate for that, but i don't know. Also, i can't stop thinking that a well timed plowshares can really delay the pod decks.

And finally, there is the problem of too much reliability on pod, brought out many times in this tread by many pod fit players. Although i think that the utility creatures and the flying bombs that i run can normally make up for the early absence of pod (being good enough by themselves), and that the sidebord these colors have access can really hold up games against faster non-fair clocks, there is kind of the same problem Commoner Brought up: after the initial disrupt, i don't know if the deck can come up fast enough with the lock down board state. But, once you've reached it, time to win should be no problem.

So I really want to know what you guys think: if the 4 color pod is worth it, if it would be better on a bant non fit shell, if is not worth it at all. I'd also like to hear from Tons of Fun how the living wish have been performing (for sake of comparison) and from Qweerios (actually, reveillark came from his list :D) on the insights of his pod list (in general and utility card choices performances), since the last i heard he was pretty satisfied with it, and he also didn't run brainstorm nor top. If you want, i can also share the 62 card list i'm using, because god knows i could use help in card choices (for exemple, i can't stop hating not running thune combo, since the line pod feeder -> Rector -> Thune + nightmare -> feeder can just win games on the spot).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

No need to run white just for Reveillark. Just run BUG Pod and incorporate 1-2 Body Doubles in your 5 CMC slot. Best part is they turn into any creature already in your graveyard, meaning you can pair it with Deadeye one turn and then blink three times next turn for a Witness effect, Thragtusk effect, and a Mystic Snake effect, all three in your graveyard because ya chained into them.

... ya know ... I'm kinda psyching myself out about Double Deadeye shenanigans ... thanks for the inspiration ^_^

EDIT:

Birthing Twins
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Melira Sylvok Outcast
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Mystic Snake
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Thragtusk
1 Body Double
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

[Nithkar]

The thing about Reveillark is that you could pod itself into deadeye and still get the value for him. Body double, on the other way, can't be used on the same chain to get Deadye, you would have to find one of the pieces on other chain or some other way (and neither are zenithable). And white isn't just for reveillark. Orzhov Pontiff, Tegg and Cannonist are very relevant hate that white has access, besides having Baneslayer and Sigarda as game finishers, and rector for generall enchantment utility.

[tons of fun]

I found out the same when i tried to play with Arianrhod Deadeye fit list, but didn't liked to rely on Empath to come across the engine. I then tried pod and felt the same as you. But seeing your deck made an idea strike my mind, since i'm currently toying with an BUGW Pod Moat list: what do you guys think of poding Reveillark into Deadeye?

Theoretically, we could bring any 2 of our previous pod chain targets back, then pair with deadeye to an amazing lock. And being a BUGW list, that would mean mystic snake, Glen Elendra, pontiff, harmonic sliver, strix, witness, abyssal gatekeeper, bone shreder, all for a board lock or card advantage.

But i have been having problems with the manabase, as it gets a little stretchy. Adding a fourth color made me reduce the number of fetches traditionally used on pod list to 6 instead of 8, which made deathrites a little less reliable and thus resulting on an addition of one land and a slightly slower deck. With this, i have less of the already scarce space that pod demands so much. And, with less fetches, the stretchy manabase and less space, i found difficult to manage library manipulation (brainstorm, SDT, i really don't know how and if to fit them in there).

Second, i really fear this build up being too much vulnerable to GY hate, and to exiling creatures in general. Maybe the fact that reveillark bring back 2 creatures can compensate for that, but i don't know. Also, i can't stop thinking that a well timed plowshares can really delay the pod decks.

And finally, there is the problem of too much reliability on pod, brought out many times in this tread by many pod fit players. Although i think that the utility creatures and the flying bombs that i run can normally make up for the early absence of pod (being good enough by themselves), and that the sidebord these colors have access can really hold up games against faster non-fair clocks, there is kind of the same problem Commoner Brought up: after the initial disrupt, i don't know if the deck can come up fast enough with the lock down board state. But, once you've reached it, time to win should be no problem.

So I really want to know what you guys think: if the 4 color pod is worth it, if it would be better on a bant non fit shell, if is not worth it at all. I'd also like to hear from Tons of Fun how the living wish have been performing (for sake of comparison) and from Qweerios (actually, reveillark came from his list :D) on the insights of his pod list (in general and utility card choices performances), since the last i heard he was pretty satisfied with it, and he also didn't run brainstorm nor top. If you want, i can also share the 62 card list i'm using, because god knows i could use help in card choices (for exemple, i can't stop hating not running thune combo, since the line pod feeder -> Rector -> Thune + nightmare -> feeder can just win games on the spot).

hey, the list mckee put up of deadeye fit was my original list that i asked him to put up to get opions cuz i didnt feel like making acount on here tha orginal list we started with wasvery clunky and had alot of issues due to being to relent on the deadeye lock

[HardBrain]

1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Archangel of Thune
3 Academy Rector
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Choke


i think deck have so many answers that its enought o handle match with combo and fair deck. We are combo too with Thune+Feeder or Melira+Finks+Varolz Infinite life...thune add infinite dmg to it. Anyone think similar like me? it is good deck for playin?

[Megadeus]

Forces are nice but I don't think they're completely necessary. A mixture of discard and more Glen Elendra Archmages could probably do the trick a good percentage of the time. You could also try Mindbreak Trap or Arcane Lab.

I'm trying out a slight white splash tonight in BUG Pod, I'll let you know how it goes.

Fair. I have Thoughtseizes (The one good thing to come out of Theros!), and I could definitely borrow forces for major events at least. Glen Elendra seems so hilariously good vs combo.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

I am testing Tao's Rector fit deck, and it's working pretty good.
It has a good matchup against all the tempo decks in the current meta, and nemesis isn't a problem for it. However, i haven't found any way to beat Jace.

[Arianrhod]

I am testing Tao's Rector fit deck, and it's working pretty good.
It has a good matchup against all the tempo decks in the current meta, and nemesis isn't a problem for it. However, i haven't found any way to beat Jace.

I've been starting to think that despite the fact that the new legend rule kind of dicks it over, Faith's Fetters may still be correct. Most "jace decks" are down to 2, MAYBE 3 copies due to True-Name having a good matchup against Jace as a card. While it's still not ideal, Fetters does shut down Jace for some number of turns while they need to dig up another one, which could buy us the necessary time to stabilize.

--Edit ---

It should be noted that Exclusion Ritual exists. That being said, I think that Ritual is just too damned expensive, and I remember that the 4 life on Fetters saved my ass more times than I care to admit.

[GtF]

Fair. I have Thoughtseizes (The one good thing to come out of Theros!), and I could definitely borrow forces for major events at least. Glen Elendra seems so hilariously good vs combo.

Yeah, it is. I run 1 main and 1 in the board. Riptide Pilferers have also been great.
I tried out the white splash and it worked pretty well. I played a Gaddock Teeg against tendrils combo and Green Sun's Zenith'd for Harmonic Sliver (though this slot could have been Viridian Shaman anyway since I killed an artifact). The only card I didn't really use was Orzhov Pontiff, which was the main reason for the white splash. Still, the mana base held up and I didn't lose to my colors in the 4 rounds.


Jace is a big issue for both pod versions since the creatures the pod deck plays are pretty small and it's hard to pressure it if they put up any resistance. Deed and Abrupt Decay also don't kill it. Phyrexian Revoker and Maelstrom Pulse are probably the best options, besides therapying it out of their hand.

[HardBrain]

I am testing Tao's Rector fit deck, and it's working pretty good.
It has a good matchup against all the tempo decks in the current meta, and nemesis isn't a problem for it. However, i haven't found any way to beat Jace.

1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Academy Rector
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Choke

This is my BGW Rector. we can go combo with thune, we can go combo with melira/varolz/finks. also we have our <3 Rectors to get o.ring on jace if you want. on sb list i put curse for Tnn / taxes / aggro /elves. Stony Silance is agains MUD. what do you think about the list?

[Megadeus]

Yeah, it is. I run 1 main and 1 in the board. Riptide Pilferers have also been great.
I tried out the white splash and it worked pretty well. I played a Gaddock Teeg against tendrils combo and Green Sun's Zenith'd for Harmonic Sliver (though this slot could have been Viridian Shaman anyway since I killed an artifact). The only card I didn't really use was Orzhov Pontiff, which was the main reason for the white splash. Still, the mana base held up and I didn't lose to my colors in the 4 rounds.


Jace is a big issue for both pod versions since the creatures the pod deck plays are pretty small and it's hard to pressure it if they put up any resistance. Deed and Abrupt Decay also don't kill it. Phyrexian Revoker and Maelstrom Pulse are probably the best options, besides therapying it out of their hand.

I plan on running a thrun when I get it built which should help vs non liliana walkers.

[Cire_dk]

I am testing Tao's Rector fit deck, and it's working pretty good.
It has a good matchup against all the tempo decks in the current meta, and nemesis isn't a problem for it. However, i haven't found any way to beat Jace.

I tried to find the list in the primer and in his sig but cannot find it. Is there another link to the list?
I know Kevin (gratz on results last weekend btw. Nice to see interview) has a Rector fit list but it has not been updated for a while now.

[Cire_dk]

i think deck have so many answers that its enought o handle match with combo and fair deck. We are combo too with Thune+Feeder or Melira+Finks+Varolz Infinite life...thune add infinite dmg to it. Anyone think similar like me? it is good deck for playin?

In general Nic Fit is not great against combo because we are to slow. Combo can go of turn 1 or 2. I played against combo several times and unfortunately died turn 1 before I could cast anything. The spikefeeder combo is very nice but takes time to set up.
On the other hand, each deck has its weakness and bad match ups. If you like the deck and get some practice in, it is great to play.
It has been said before but Nic Fit is difficult to pilot well (as I have found out from personal experience :smile:)

[pfiremc13]

1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Archangel of Thune
3 Academy Rector
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Choke


i think deck have so many answers that its enought o handle match with combo and fair deck. We are combo too with Thune+Feeder or Melira+Finks+Varolz Infinite life...thune add infinite dmg to it. Anyone think similar like me? it is good deck for playin?

The problem with melira combo is that it's really hard to assemble. 3 cards is a lot more than 2, and melira is pretty much dead without kitchen finks or murderous redcap (which you don't even run). I also think 3 rectors is too much because deathrite shaman blanks it.


I've been starting to think that despite the fact that the new legend rule kind of dicks it over, Faith's Fetters may still be correct. Most "jace decks" are down to 2, MAYBE 3 copies due to True-Name having a good matchup against Jace as a card. While it's still not ideal, Fetters does shut down Jace for some number of turns while they need to dig up another one, which could buy us the necessary time to stabilize.

--Edit ---

It should be noted that Exclusion Ritual exists. That being said, I think that Ritual is just too damned expensive, and I remember that the 4 life on Fetters saved my ass more times than I care to admit.

Hmm....

is it testing time?

Since my idyllic tutors aren't in the mainboard, and I don't think I can consistently rely on getting rector into my yard, I think the answer for jace will go in the side. Maybe a maelstrom pulse in the main. The only problem is what to cut from my side.

I'm still thinking about mindbreak trap vs. ethersworn canonist. I think mindbreak trap is harder to deal with, but ethersworn canonist is more versatile (ex. against omnitell and hypergenesis). Is that true? What other decks is canonist good against?

[Arianrhod]

Canonist is good vs Elves, TES, ANT, Belcher, Cheeri0s, OmniTell, Doomsday, Spanish Inq, Hypergenesis, and some other random decks. Some people have brought in Canonist vs Scapewish and it's been annoying if not debilitating -- stops Therapy + flashback, Wish + kill you, etc. I kind of don't like bringing it in from the opposing deck's standpoint, but I can't deny that people have done it and it has (rarely) mattered. This suggests it might also be boardable, in theory, vs wish variants of Aggro Loam.

Pontiff is a reason to play GBW Pod-based versions atm. A tutorable way to kill True-Name is nothing to scoff at.

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

[hymntotourcock]

Arian, represent dude. Links to your video(s)?

[Arianrhod]

Arian, represent dude. Links to your video(s)?

If you google "twitch tales of adventure" you'll find the videos. I'll try to put up a link tonight if I can remember. You'll have to skip around a little until you find where I come on -- the stream is compressed into like 3-4 huge videos.

[Ayotte]

If you google "twitch tales of adventure" you'll find the videos. I'll try to put up a link tonight if I can remember. You'll have to skip around a little until you find where I come on -- the stream is compressed into like 3-4 huge videos.

You're on the first, about an hour in if I remember correctly.

[Megadeus]

Canonist is good vs Elves, TES, ANT, Belcher, Cheeri0s, OmniTell, Doomsday, Spanish Inq, Hypergenesis, and some other random decks. Some people have brought in Canonist vs Scapewish and it's been annoying if not debilitating -- stops Therapy + flashback, Wish + kill you, etc. I kind of don't like bringing it in from the opposing deck's standpoint, but I can't deny that people have done it and it has (rarely) mattered. This suggests it might also be boardable, in theory, vs wish variants of Aggro Loam.

Pontiff is a reason to play GBW Pod-based versions atm. A tutorable way to kill True-Name is nothing to scoff at.

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

I like Canonist the most of any hate bear for a non blue fit deck. I hate MB trap. Any good storm player can easily play around it. It is much better in a fast deck where you can limit the amount of time that they can play around it. Unfortunately nic fit is much too slow most of the time. I think a hard lock piece like Nether Void or something is much more effective. Unless my meta was like 50% T1 combo deck, I would not run MB trap in this deck.

[pfiremc13]

I wouldn't worry about Deathrite, pfire -- I'd run the full 3 Rectors if you want to play a specifically Rector build. Deathrite is falling out of favor, and you should be running probably around 4 spot removals at the moment anyway (something like 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate). Those coupled with your Deeds should be enough ways to get rid of DRS -- plus, a lot of your average legacy players still don't know the DRS trick anyway.

Good point.


I like Canonist the most of any hate bear for a non blue fit deck. I hate MB trap. Any good storm player can easily play around it. It is much better in a fast deck where you can limit the amount of time that they can play around it. Unfortunately nic fit is much too slow most of the time. I think a hard lock piece like Nether Void or something is much more effective. Unless my meta was like 50% T1 combo deck, I would not run MB trap in this deck.

Ok then, switching out the traps.

...do realize that I run nether void as well.

------------------------


...I think I'm going to make some swaps in thune fit. I don't know if teeg is worth it in the mainboard. I have no idea what to cut from my side though.

1 Nether Void
1 Humility
2 Thoughtseize
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Idyllic Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist

After that, I think I want a mainboard way to deal with jace. This will probably be faith's fetters. I'll also see what maelstrom pulse can do, though I think fetters is just better since it can be tutored for with rector and idyllic.

Have people had problems with batterskull in nic fit?

[Megadeus]

Does no one run Thrun as a way to get at a Jace? In Thune fit you could run Sigarda. Obviously it doesn't KILL Jace. But you know, it kills Jace.

[plogan]

For those of you wondering about the rector version here's my updated list. I've been on rector for over a year now and the deck has served me well. I don't quite understand what the thrill about thune combo is, I simply think it adds too many individually dead cards to the deck. Anyway I'll be running this at a local on Saturday and if anyone wants to pick my brain feel free. Also Exclusion Ritual is pretty great when you put it on a Jace.

The List:

4x Therapy
4x Explorer
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Academy Rector
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Marsh Flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Windswept Heath
2x Thoughteize
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sun Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kukusho
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Reccuring Nightmare
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarada
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Garruk Relentless

Sideboard:
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Thalia
2x Golgari Charm
1x Extripate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Nethervoid
1x Teeg
1x Humility
1x Ashen Rider
1x Exclusion Ritual

[jbone2016]

Another small event today with Scapewish.
Beat Painter's Servant (2-0). 1st Turn Blood Moon both games. 1st game didn't matter much. 2nd game I had a Vet to stop him from attacking for a while before deed cleaned up.
Lost to Punishing Jund (0-2). Goyf beats the 1st game. His topdeck were better the 2nd. That's the matchup I miss decays.
Beat UWR delver. (2-0). He kept slow hands both games while I ripped his hand apart.
Drew with White Stax. (1-1) Drew so we both got prizes and drew anyways. A timely deed along with huntmaster sealed the first game. 2nd game his was down to 5 before smokestack took off. He cast Armageddon against me twice. :(

[TakeYourTime]

Brief report from the ToA 40 duals / 40 fetches event on Saturday.
R3: Bugstill

He mulls to 6. He doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

Game two: he mulls to 5, doesn't do anything relevant, and I kill him.

That was me! :tongue:

It was nice to meet you at the event, I didn't know your Source handle. Congratulations on your finish!



Side note to anyone, which 6-drops have people found to be highly impactful in a GWB shell, and which 6-drops are found to be unimpressive? There are so many True-Name Nemesis floating around that Moat is probably one of the stronger cards to run in Nic Fit.

[Fizzeler]

That was me! :tongue:

It was nice to meet you at the event, I didn't know your Source handle. Congratulations on your finish!



Side note to anyone, which 6-drops have people found to be highly impactful in a GWB shell, and which 6-drops are found to be unimpressive? There are so many True-Name Nemesis floating around that Moat is probably one of the stronger cards to run in Nic Fit.

Grave Titan, Yosei, and Sun Titan

Still testing others like Armada Wurm and other GSZ non prime time 6 drops

[Arianrhod]

Ah, hey =)


Grave Titan, Yosei, and Sun Titan

Still testing others like Armada Wurm and other GSZ non prime time 6 drops

Pretty much this, although I maintain an intense hatred for Grave Titan. I'd add Primeval Titan and Kokusho to the list -- Primeval needs lands to get, though, and Kokusho is slow to kill, although it will actually kill someone unlike Yosei. They're much more situational, but they'll work.

Also, there is the old Gifts-build tech of Rune-Scarred Demon. I still say that RSD -> Nightmare is just waiting to be broken, even if Gifts isn't the answer. Making Nightmare GSZable, no matter how indirectly, is not something that we should scoff at.

[Arianrhod]

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?

[Ralf]

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?

1) From my point of view. Never.
Why ? -> asking to pay 9 mana before permission IS a lot. Even soft counters are dealbreakers...

2) Slam Emrakul + another hasty dude giving haste to everybody (urabrask, kragma warcaller, Maelstrom wanderer) ?

3) Based on point n°2 UGR or BGR

4) None...except maybe a very slightly better MU against S&T ??

[Kap'n Cook]

Also, discussion flashpoint:

We've never really considered Tooth and Nail. Should we?

What could we do with it?

What would be the best color setup?

What advantages does it have over something like Scapeshift (I can think of two or three immediately)?


Iona+painter?

Slap in some grindstones for the hell of it too. Name green with painter and use gsz to tutor for any creature in your deck? Just an idea

[Arianrhod]

1) From my point of view. Never.
Why ? -> asking to pay 9 mana before permission IS a lot. Even soft counters are dealbreakers...

2) Slam Emrakul + another hasty dude giving haste to everybody (urabrask, kragma warcaller, Maelstrom wanderer) ?

3) Based on point n°2 UGR or BGR

4) None...except maybe a very slightly better MU against S&T ??

Let me frame the question a bit:

I'm wondering if T&N might be a way to emulate Scapewish's success while simultaneously removing Scape's inherent flaws.

For reference, the advantages I thought of earlier:

-) "Combo pieces" are creatures, which means that they do something when you randomly draw one. Randomly drawing a Valakut / having one in the opening hand sucks.
-) Your combo doesn't lose to wasteland. It may lose to Swords to Plowshares, depending on what the combo is, but we can protect that with Therapy. We can't Therapy Wasteland.
-) If you draw / lose a combo piece at some point, Toothing for like a Titan + a Thrag is still probably fine, even if it doesn't win on the spot. Disabled Scapeshifts are basically 4-mana do-nothings...they can shuffle for Top, but that's it.
-) Fewer manabase constraints means more stability. You still would run a heavy ramp creature package, though, which means that your manabase would actually be probably the most stable manabase in the entirety of legacy.

--------

Iona + Servant is a good one. Grindstone gives the deck a nut draw: T1 Therapy, T2 Explorer, flashback, Painter, Grindstone, pass and dare you to do something about it after two Therapies. Iona is castable and improves the Show and Tell matchup marginally. Servant calling green seems reasonable -- Green Sun for Canonist is legit.

If we're in GBW anyway, there may be something to be done with Rector shenanigans -- Tooth for Rector + Varolz might go places.

Thune + Spike, too, which is a combo that some versions are already running anyway.

It's also important to remember that Tooth for 7 can do things -- we don't necessarily need the full 9. Double 1-sided Show and Tell can be good sometimes, too -- especially with something like Living Wish or Fierce Empath (Worldly Tutor or Eladamri's Call, even?) to help assemble.

[Fizzeler]

Grave Titan is okay, I want that slot to be GSZ right now and Primeval Titan is not the best in Pod (although he can fetch up Township)

Tooth and Nail is interesting can tutor up several 2 card combos ones I can think of (that have not been mentioned)

Conscript + Kiki (or any untap creature with kiki)

Necrotic Ooze + Corpse Connesuir

Elesh Norn + God head of Awe

Sun Titan + E Witness (not a combo per say, but still good)

Rector + Sac outlet

Resto + some ETB creature

[Ralf]

Let me frame the question a bit:

I'm wondering if T&N might be a way to emulate Scapewish's success while simultaneously removing Scape's inherent flaws.

For reference, the advantages I thought of earlier:

-) "Combo pieces" are creatures, which means that they do something when you randomly draw one. Randomly drawing a Valakut / having one in the opening hand sucks.
-) Your combo doesn't lose to wasteland. It may lose to Swords to Plowshares, depending on what the combo is, but we can protect that with Therapy. We can't Therapy Wasteland.
-) If you draw / lose a combo piece at some point, Toothing for like a Titan + a Thrag is still probably fine, even if it doesn't win on the spot. Disabled Scapeshifts are basically 4-mana do-nothings...they can shuffle for Top, but that's it.
-) Fewer manabase constraints means more stability. You still would run a heavy ramp creature package, though, which means that your manabase would actually be probably the most stable manabase in the entirety of legacy.

It's also important to remember that Tooth for 7 can do things -- we don't necessarily need the full 9. Double 1-sided Show and Tell can be good sometimes, too -- especially with something like Living Wish or Fierce Empath (Worldly Tutor or Eladamri's Call, even?) to help assemble.

1) Well, having a tooth & nail in your opening is like a mull to 6. Nothing different than scape.
2) If I had to pay 9 in Legacy I wish my spell to be a end-gaming one.
3) Your combo also die to wasteland, just in a different manner, except if you plan to go for at least 9(7) basics...

Don't take me wrong. I did play Tooth & Nail years ago. I like the card but to make it viable in Legacy and in Nic Fit is just another story.

[pfiremc13]

Does no one run Thrun as a way to get at a Jace? In Thune fit you could run Sigarda. Obviously it doesn't KILL Jace. But you know, it kills Jace.

I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.


For those of you wondering about the rector version here's my updated list. I've been on rector for over a year now and the deck has served me well. I don't quite understand what the thrill about thune combo is, I simply think it adds too many individually dead cards to the deck.

If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

[Arianrhod]

1) Well, having a tooth & nail in your opening is like a mull to 6. Nothing different than scape.
2) If I had to pay 9 in Legacy I wish my spell to be a end-gaming one.
3) Your combo also die to wasteland, just in a different manner, except if you plan to go for at least 9(7) basics...

Don't take me wrong. I did play Tooth & Nail years ago. I like the card but to make it viable in Legacy and in Nic Fit is just another story.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting that we all rush out and buy a set of Tooth and Nails. It's mostly just a discussion point. Nic Fit as an archetype is capable of virtually anything, and it's always good to have a robust debate.

That said, allow me to continue to play devil's advocate...

1) False. There are very, very few instances where I consider any card to be an auto-mull in my opening hand. If I'm playing a Kiki-jiki to Tooth for in a GBW deck with 0 red sources, then yes, that counts. If I open a Scapeshift in my 7 with Scapewish, I'm actually usually pretty happy about it -- it means I don't need to dig for the win. I already have it -- it's just a matter of getting to it and resolving it safely. While it doesn't do anything by itself, just the knowledge that I have it allows me to play differently -- I can use my Wishes to either get protection (Thoughtseize) or answers for various problematic board states to stall out until Scape comes online. And so forth. Tooth, I think, is the same way. I wouldn't really care if I opened one in my 7 because then I wouldn't have to go looking for it later, and I could focus on just ramping / controlling the game to that point.

2) This I agree with. That being said, all I'm suggesting here is that if the cogs get screwed up and we HAVE to Tooth for JUST a Titan + a 5-drop, well oh well. I am 100% in favor of the idea that if Tooth resolves, you should win immediately. A lot of the more enginey things that Tooth can do need to be dismissed for this reason -- like Ooze + Corpse Conn is cute, but highly unlikely to win the game on the spot unless you have a gajillion life and you go get Griselbrand....but then that requires you to run a Griselbrand, which is in itself weak to graveyard hate.

It's also the problem with Iona + Servant -- if you're dead on board, it doesn't win you the game. Ironically, ThuneFeeder might be one of the best combos, here -- if you're dead on board when you Tooth for ThuneFeeder, you're not going to be dead on board anymore, even if your entire board gets annihilated or some such.

3) Ehhhhhhh. I usually run between 7 and 8 basics in Nic Fit. While Wasteland is still annoying, I don't consider it a deal-breaker. We'll get to that much mana. Hell, I've been able to hardcast Emrakul a few times. Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribes would help with this, too. You aren't realistically going much further than Scape does -- one more land drop is irrelevant in decks with this much stable mana.


I run sigarda as well, but it's always good to have multiple options. I only run 3 gsz, and jace decks can just swords/force all your creatures so it could be hard to pod into sigarda. It also gives your opponent a turn to brainstorm.



If you would call thune or feeder individually dead, then yes.

Thune is arguably even better than baneslayer, and feeder buys a lot of time and has a lot of utility.

Vouch for Thune and Feeder being good on their own. I do think that Baneslayer is still better when going solo, but Feeder can be unexpectedly amazing.

Thrun gets chumped for days, and doesn't get around a blocking True-Name. He's okay for like GB versions, and GBR Punishing because they usually run Kessig Wolf Run...but outside of those two instances, I wouldn't touch Thrun. Waste of a slot.

Carpet helps with Jace, because it helps you get your stuff deployed before he comes down, ensuring that when he does, he's dead immediately. That said, even with Carpets in my list I've sometimes still randomly lost to Jace. At least Jace's popularity is declining in the metagame at the moment. I keep hoping we'll get an Acidic Slime variant that can nuke planeswalkers. It's an obvious print, and it's one of those things that would immediately give Nic Fit as an archetype a huge power spike.

[pfiremc13]

I have no idea what to cut from my side though.

This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

[Fizzeler]

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

[Arianrhod]

On the basics I'm at 7 now in Pod, but is 8 correct? It feels right given I have Pods 3 4 drops, 3 5 drops, and 2 6 drops

I have also been Testing Whip Of Erebos to some good success, the reanimation is great with Pod and lifelink beats most midrange and tempo decks outright

I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

[Ralf]

Emrakul + hasty beast could be an end-gaming shot.

Anyway, I'll put these considerations aside. If someone wants to give this idea a shot, I'll enjoy reading results about it.

Back to regular Nic Fit.

So, I'm currently testing (aside my Nic Fit Planeswalker build) some new tweaks to my scape list:

Here you go:

1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Taiga
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shattergang Brothers
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

As already posted, S&T is back in da YARD (Sneak, omni)... What should I do. And don't tell me to drop Nic Fit...
Cards in bold are my recent changes (still testing).

1) Shattergang is maybe too cute and far too slow. But I kinda love the fact that it can answer both Omni/Sneak as you can kill Emmy, Sneak & Omni recurring a pernicious in game 1 (and obvisouly a carpet in game 2). It can also profit the second sensei you let on top of your library !!!

2) Karakas. As a 1-of, it is not what I would call "OUTSTANDING" but as long as I don't lose games because of it (and yet to happen), If only I could take at least a game 1 against S&T with it (or reanimator), I will be happy.

3) Slaughter has been removed from MD. In TS ! SG is a game ending spell against some combo MU but it has been so DEAD vs a lot of fair decks and against combo, IT HAS TO COME ON TIME (which barely happened). Multiple times I wish I had a cheaper disruption in hand...
But, I consider adding a 1-of, Liliana over the third TS MD (or might be 2).
Amusingly, this has freed up a slot in SB -> 4th REB but this could become some kind of grave.hate

Any ideas will, as usual, be more than welcomed.

[Fizzeler]

I can see the Whip being solid. I'm not sure which is better between Whip and Nightmare -- are you running both / do you have any insights on this?

For GBW versions I tend to run 8 (3 forest, 3 plains, 2 swamp). The extra basic is usually worth in these versions because they are typically the 2 Phyrexian Tower builds, and having an extra Plains to still enable the turn 2 Baneslayer / Thune scenarios when there's a Plains stuck in your hand proved to be worth the trouble when I was running Rector.

For other versions I tend to run 7, in a 3-2-2 split. Blue versions that run Counterspell would be an exception, since I would want to be able to Vet for Island + Island to hold up Counterspell. That being said, I think that Negate has kind of trumped out Counterspell in most BUG lists anyway, so that's probably irrelevant.

I have not tested them together, they are both better in different situations, Whip is great when you have no creatures in play and a pod active. As I said the lifelink is huge vs other midrange decks and tempo I raced 3 flipped delvers with a Whip

I'll move up to 8 then with so many lategame sinks I felt I wanted the extra land, I may do Swamp over Plains because of Titan and Whip, although I can see Grave Titan becoming Thune

[Megadeus]

Regarding Tooth and Nail, you could run like a BUG version with like Plasm Capture ( http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=446814 ) to help ramp up to 9 mana. I thought about making a deck like that in modern. Seems hilarious if nothing else.

What about a BUG pod deck that played like Painters Servant and Trinket mage to search for Grindstone?

[GtF]

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

[Megadeus]

The advantage of having creatures with the tooth and nail kill seems like more of a disadvantage to me. For most of the creature combos, the creatures you have to play are either not very good on their own (painter's servant, spike feeder) or uncastable (emrakul, Iona if you aren't playing white). Valakut you can at least play as a land and get mana. Also re: discard. While it's true you can't make them discard their wastelands, if you are playing creatures for tooth and nail, they can make you discard them, seriously compromising your combo. Finally the 9 mana vs. 7 lands difference seems pretty huge to me, though I haven't played the shift version so maybe it's not a big of a deal as it looks.
Maybe we should be looking for a way to deal with wasteland if that's a big problem. Either our own wastelands or a way to reshuffle in valakuts if they get wastelanded.

Loam? Helps to hit land drops. Sucks that you may end up milling your good spells though. I mean you can always EWtiness back a Valakut.

Also if you are running Tooth and Nail, you could always run Emrakul so even if they discard it it just shuffles back in

[Fizzeler]

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

[GtF]

Way to pick cards back in? Sweet I get to bring up the other card I going to be testing in Pod:

Bow Of Nylea

I tanked on it but it seems.like recurring pod creatures is enough value to run it, but if you meed more it kills delver, gains life, and pumps our creatures. Add to that the fact that it allows all your creatures to attack into an opponents board

Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

[Fizzeler]

Well I was suggesting it more for the valakut/scapeshift version of the deck, which doesn't run pod so has a lot fewer creatures. For Pod, Recurring Nightmare just seems like a better version of Bow of Nylea to me.

What about Bow in Scapewish though? Admittedly I have not played Scapewish so no gauge on whether it is good in that build and something like Restore could solve the wasteland issue better than it.

It does on the surface I agree, but factoring in things like GSZ and Pod itself kinda makes me think twice

Also worth noting Nightmare does not recur non creatures and has to be recast continuously. Nothing against recurring nightmare just testing many different cards for the best fit in the list

[Megadeus]

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

[pfiremc13]

Bow would be a somewhat hilarious protection against Jace Ultimate as well.

That's actually really funny.

Bow definitely requires testing to see where exactly the abilities are good. It looks ok to me, if not overly impressive.


This will be a canonist I think. There is already a lot of combo hate in my board.

Eugh I think teeg is too useful against like miracles and stuff to cut from the main

So my change will be -1 canonist +1 fetters.

[strom]

While browsing the list of zenitable multicolored creatures I found this one:

Ghave, Guru of Spores

It might find a place in GBw-Builds.
Ghave is a bit mana-intensive but hey - we use Explorers.
Ghave offers some nice combat tricks. You can use the tokens to block and then sacrifice them back to pump Ghave. Basically you can fog four creatures each turn or use the tokens to get at an opposing walker. Ghave also works well with Spikefeeder.
On the other hand there are probably more powerful creatures like Sigarda in the 5cc-slot.
What do you think?

[Myelectronicdays]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

[jbone2016]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

I think landing a tombstalker is important. Deeding for 7 is difficult. Having a deathrite tends to mess with therapy at times. (granted we can play around it if we are careful). I will say Lily is a pain to deal with, if we don't have decay.

[Arianrhod]

Question for people playing nic fit.. I played against nic fit this previous night, while playing team america, and I seemed to have the worst time vs the deck. Was told that my best bet is running stifles (i wasn't running any in the board), that really the only way to keep them slightly denied of resources? any advice is great thanks! Therapies raged me and I couldn't come close to keep up with the amount of removal.

Yeah, your best bet is to have Stifle at the ready for Veteran Explorer and for Pernicious Deed. Nothing else is really worth stifling in the matchup from your perspective, unless it's something really devastating (like a Thragtusk trigger the turn before you kill him). Even then you can still just lose to Carpet of Flowers out of the side, but it's your best bet. Nic Fit is probably one of your worst matchups, so don't feel bad about struggling with it -- and you can also take solace in the fact that it's not a commonly played deck.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Quick question: how often do the various combo decks win turn 1 on the play? Thinking of swapping out my Force of Wills for Thoughtseizes in the side for consistency purposes, but if that Turn 1 Win % is too great, then I'll have to reconsider including FoW.

[anwei]

The dedicated T1 decks (SI, Belcher, All-Spells) approach 40-55% for T1 (which might result in some Goblins, for Belcher, not the end of the game).
Decks like Tin Fins and TES are probably 20-35%.

In my rather limited experience of tinkering with BUG Fit builds and trying to jam Force of Will, I find myself quickly adding sub-ideal cards in order to fit 18 blue cards in the deck. You reach a certain mass of Coiling Oracle, Baleful Strix, and Brainstorm - all great cards - that your fair games have too high a concentration of low-power "value" plays.

I don't think T1 combo decks are prevalent and fast enough to require Force, and, if they were, this would not be the deck to be playing.

[Cire_dk]

Quick question: how often do the various combo decks win turn 1 on the play? Thinking of swapping out my Force of Wills for Thoughtseizes in the side for consistency purposes, but if that Turn 1 Win % is too great, then I'll have to reconsider including FoW.

How about flusterstorm in the board?

[Star|Scream]

How about flusterstorm in the board?

Flusterstorm is a great card for combo hate--particularly against ANT if you can float it with a top. TES can play around it with silence or swarm, but it can still be effective against their cantrips. What you really need, though, is a clock in addition to the disruption. A clique might be nice, as you can get it online turn 2 in a perfect magical Christmas world. Also be careful about fetching islands against carpet of flowers.

[GtF]

Flusterstorm is a great card for combo hate--particularly against ANT if you can float it with a top. TES can play around it with silence or swarm, but it can still be effective against their cantrips. What you really need, though, is a clock in addition to the disruption. A clique might be nice, as you can get it online turn 2 in a perfect magical Christmas world. Also be careful about fetching islands against carpet of flowers.

I've mentioned before but Riptide Pilferer has been really good for me, worth considering if you're playing blue. Though even if not, headhunter is the original black version and does exactly the same thing.

[Zorker]

One noob question, i started reading the primer about Nic fit(punishing fit primarily) but in some of the match up notes Kessig wolf Run is mentioned , but that card isn't present in any of the three lists is that a remain of an older list?

[Ralf]

One noob question, i started reading the primer about Nic fit(punishing fit primarily) but in some of the match up notes Kessig wolf Run is mentioned , but that card isn't present in any of the three lists is that a remain of an older list?

That's because Tao does not like it but it is a house in punishing Fit as you are most likely on the "Protect the Troll" plan.
Kessig + Thrun will pretty end games very fast.
I'm belonging to the ones cutting phyrexian/volrath for Kessig.

Personal preference I guess but having a hexproof trample beast is amazing in a lot of MU, even more since TNN's printing.

[Zorker]

thanks

[Tao]

Yeah, I played with Wolf-Run and I have cut it since I made the primer. I try to update the SB plans whenever I change the list but there might be some hiccups in it like with the Wolf Run.

Will also have to do some testing and Sideboarding against UWR Delver. Really glad that UWR is a thing now because it seems like a very favorable matchup. I can't see how Punishing Nic Fit would ever lose G1 because it can just kill all their creatures with Fire, Decay, Lili and Deed. G2 and G3 Meddling Mage might be annoying but it should not be too bad either because we get Red Blasts and Golgari Charm.

[Arianrhod]

Chris Higashi top 64'd the invitational with Scapewish. Hopefully we'll get a report -- I know Chris reads the thread, but he only posts infrequently.

[guelahpapyrus]

I've replaced both Phyrexian Tower and Kessig with two Treetop Villages in P-Fire and I've had good success with it. Makes the deck a less swingy and applies a bit more consistent pressure.