[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Svknoe]

Sweet to see Scapewish make top 64 of the Invitational.

I played at local 28 man legacy event today, bringing David Gleicher's Explorer Pod list. I drew the first round on time against an Elves! player. I then went on to beat Dredge, Sneak and Show, losing to ANT before finally beating UWR Delver to make the top 8, getting 5th seed. In the top 8 i beat Omnitell, ANT and then finally Dredge. I got first place and a tundra and a flooded strand. I ran into a whole lot of combo today, making me glad that I chose to run BUG Pod and not Scapewish for once. It's funny that Wood Elves seem to be somewhat good against combo, both ramping and providing a 3 drop body to pod into Glen Elendra Archmage. I may write out some details tomorrow.

[Cire_dk]

SvKnoe, congratz n the finish. I did not expect the list to do that well against combo so well done. Which list did you run. Standard Pod fit. Any ideas or recommendations based on your games?
Looking forward to your report.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I played Scapewish for the first time on Saturday and top-4'd my local. I played this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift

4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Damnation
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games

I beat budget ReAnimator, big Zoo, and Affinity without dropping a game - although I won several games by ripping Wish/Scapeshift off the top when facing lethal damage. I then scooped a friend playing Jund into top 4, we played it out for fun and I narrowly lost 1-2 (the 4-Liliana draw is pretty much unbeatable lol). After the tournament I played a bunch of test games against Esper Stoneblade (pre and post-board) and I'm pretty sure I won every game. The deck seems very strong although I dodged the other two combo players in the room (TES would have been very unpleasant). I will be removing the Grafdigger's cage for another Relic as I forgot about its poor interaction with Green Sun's Zenith (derp). I may also cut either one yard hate piece or one piece of discard in order to make room for either an Innocent Blood or a Chainer's Edict.

[Zorker]

Well i played the deck "punishing fit", in an 8 person legacy event since it was my first time playing i went rather poorly 0-1-4

The draw was because i went to time with a Reanimator( Round one he won woth a turn 2 blazing archon, i didn't draw any removal)
I Lost 2-1 aginst Jund
I lost 2-1 Against junkblade
I lost 2-1 against shardless
I lot 2-1 Against dredge.

Well what i can say i really like the deck i just need more practice with it.

Star player against every deck was thrun.

[Svknoe]

Thank you, Cire_dk!

I played the following list:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wood Elves
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Birthing Pod

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave

SIDEBOARD
2 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
4 Force of Will


Round 1: I kept a good looking therapy, explorer and deed hand. My opponent won the die roll, going zenith for dryad arbor. I smelled Elves! and played therapy for Glimpse of Nature, and hit. The flashback on turn 2 hit some elf. I believe he had a fairly good hand. I managed to get a deed into play turn 2. With deed in play I can stop him from comboing, and he has to pressure me to force me to blow the deed. He played a lot more carefully and only played the insect after i played the deed. I have never played against elves before, which led me to make a gigantic mistake on turn 3. He had deathrite, symbiote and visionary out. I had to get rid of the symbiote to not get grinded down by it and visionary. I had 5 lands in play and i could play sower of temptation or shriekmaw to solve the problem. Shriekmaw is a faster clock, so I opted for that. He naturally bounced his visionary in response to the trigger. I did not belive that he would manage to kill me in one turn of just a deathrite in play, after me hitting twice on therapy. Apparantly he could. Deed for 1 would easily have kept me safe.

I can't remember what I boarded in this match. Thoughtseize, Charm, Deed and Jitte seem good to me.

In game 2 i opened therapy on glimpse, hitting twice. The flashback took a natural order. I can't clearly remember the rest of this game. I belive that Redcap killed a few elves, and since he did not have an engine any more that was enough for me to have time to kill him. Time was called before game 3, making the match a draw. Bummer. I think it is a bad match up, though deed seems very good.

0-0-1


Round 2: My opponent won the die roll and was playing Dredge, what I assumed was a bad match up. I think that he killed me fairly quickly. This tournament did not appear to be going that well.

+1 Jitte
+1 Pernicious Deed
-1 Acidic Slime
-1 Shriekmaw

In game 2 I opened on a turn 1 Deathrite, and my opponent had a slow start. With a deed I could prevent him from attempting to swarm me with zombies. Eventually I managed to grind him out with Sower of Temptation and Recurring Nightmare, stealing his creatures and saccing them for value, as well as exiling his bridges.
For the last game, he played a land and passed. Not realising what he had, I played my turn 1 Deathrite. He EOT Firestorm for 3, discarding three dredgers. Luckily I drew a brainstorm, which found another Deathrite. His dredges were pretty mediocre, and I was able to grind him out again.

This match up seems a lot better then I first thought it was. Deed keeps the zombies away, while Deathrite either mises him out of the game if he has too few fetches, or at least keeps the Ichorids under control. If I have to deed the board, and he either gets to keep his bridges or gets a fresh batch of zombies, I think I lose. Therefore it is important to constantly keep his graveyard clear of bridges. Him having 1 is acceptable, if you are only able to sac a creature once. Therapy, Pod, Nightmare and Redcap gives me 9 ways to clear his graveyard of bridges post board.

1-0-1


Round 3: I won the die roll. My opponents turn 1 Flooded Strand and pass made me fear Miracles, which seems not that favorable (though I have never even tested against it with Pod). I had a cabal therapy that I could play on turn 2, which would have named Jace. Since he could not cast Jace on turn 2 anyways, I decided to wait for information of what he was playing. Turn two he brainstormed of another fetch and cracked his strand to play a Ponder. He had fetched for two basic Islands. Combined with the ponder that seemed to indicate combo, probably of some show and tell variety. I played my therapy, intending to name show and tell. He forced it, pitching force. That made it seem likely to me that he was on Sneak and Show, since I believe that Omnitell usually plays Pact of Negation instead (I might very well have been wrong). Sneak attack kills faster, and I had Grave Titan in hand, so I decided to name that on the flashback. I hit, seeing Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Emrakul, Griselbrand and City of traitors. If he would show emrakul into play, I could race it with Grave Titan. Since he also had Griselbrand, Grave Titan was not enough. He found another show and tell with the draw, and I was able to get him to 2 life before I lost. Perhaps it would actually have been better to name Griselbrand, so that I could race Emrakul if he decided to show it in to play.

I boarded in almost everything, and boarded out the value creatures. Post board the plan is to pressure his hand with discard and Riptide Pilferers, while holding up counters to stop him from going of too soon. Eventually you want to land a Glen Elendra Archmage, which is usually game.

I played my turn 1 Deathrite, turn 2 Riptide Pilferer, keeping up force and Envelop. On turn 3 I spent 2 mana on something irrelevant and he discarded a force to the pilferer, leading me to believe that he had more counter magic in hand. My hand included Force, Envelop, Sower of Temptation and no other blue cards. On his turn 3 he led with a probe. At this point I was faced with a decision. I thought that he had counters. If he went for it I could counter twice, but I did not want to pitch the sower or let him know that I had it. I fetched to pay for my Envelop to counter his Probe. He dazed back, floating 1 mana. I paid for it with Deathrite. He decided to go for it blindly. I expect that he had some counter back up. He brought Griselbrand for show and tell, but I had Sower of Temptation, which won the game. It might have been a lot safer to go for the counter and pressure plan, but this line was too sweet for me to resist.

In game three the standard discard and pressure plan was successful.

2-0-1


Round 4: I got paired against a friend who I knew was on ANT. He killed me quickly. I boarded in my hate in order to win game 2 and 3. From testing I like my chances versus ANT post board. I got an unkeepable one lander at 7 and no lands at 6. I finally kept a suspect 5 of 3 lands and 2 explorers, hoping to draw therapy into Glen Elendra to win. I bricked on therapy and hit on Archmage. Then he killed me. I could have mulled to 4, but then it becomes very difficult to ever cast archmage. As casting Archmage is very important in the match up, I decided to keep.

Now I had to win the last round to be able to make top 8.

2-1-1


Round 5: I finally got paired against a fair deck, UWR delver. I won both games fairly easily. Compared to RUG I find it most comfortable to not have to deal with stifle. Their soft counters I can almost always play around, if it is important. His True-Name Nemeses were late in the mail, so he was on Geist. It was not relevant, though, as True-Name would actually have been easier to race on the board which he cast Geist.

3-1-1


My tie breakers were good enough for 5th seed. At least I won't have to play the ANT player again, since he was undefeated.


Top 8

Quarterfinals: I got paired against a player who I knew was on Omnitell. I lost to him in my last top 8, when I was playing Scapewish. He opted to go first, and killed me before I could find my one Glen Elendra Archmage. This was expected, but I felt fairly comfortable for game 2 and 3. I have tested close to 10 post board games against Omnitell, and I only lost one of them. I think that the general discard, counter and then Glen Elendra soft lock plan is very sound. Acidic Slime is also hilarious.

In game 2 I got to be on the play and kept a hand that was keepable, but that's about it. It had some lands and a pilferer at least. He forced the pilferer, which ended up being just fine, since I immediatly drew another one. Finding some of the 13 sideboard cards is generally not that hard, so I was able to control him until I landed an archmage. We played a few more turns until my deck of expensive 1/1s and 2/2s was able to kill him, since he was unable to cast important spells.

The third game is a little more scary, since they are on the play. Most hands do fine, though. But my hand, on the other hand, was a beautiful zero lander. As was the next. I kept a hand of three lands, GSZ and something irrelevant, hoping to get there. I drew a brainstorm as my first draw. I had a fetch, but opted to play it at the end of his turn. That is because I only had 5 cards, so shuffling away one more had less of an impact, and I needed interaction fast. Therefore the tempo advantage is more important than usual. The brainstorm yielded a therapy and another brainstorm. I shuffled away the irrelevant card and therapied him on turn to. They generally need Enter the Infinite to win, so I named that. Against an explorer deck they can feasibly cast Dream Halls, providing redundancy for show and tell omni. I hit two enter the infinites, which proved to be crucial later. He had the turn 3 kill, had I not hit anything on brainstorm. On turn 3 I slipped. I had Wood Elves and Pod in hand and intended to play Wood Elves and then Pod it into Glen Elendra next turn. I then sacced Wood Elves, my only creature, both in play and in hand, to flashback cabal therapy. "Luckily" for me he had recovered from my discard the last turn, and had the kill again. My therapy bought me more time, of course. I drew another Pod. Any 2 drop or better would win. I draw a 1 drop and pod twice getting strix and then witness getting brainstorm to dig for action. He resolves show and tell for omniscience. Ugh. He luckily can't kill me. He wishes for rushing river and bounces both of my pods, countering both of them om my next turn. I however, had a third Pod. Which he countered. Things were starting to look very grim, staring down that Omniscience. And he drew brainstorm! Cunning Wish for Intuition. Sigh, I guess I'll have to contend with a single Theros pack for top 8. He cast intuition. I might as well make him play it out. He then found Intuition, Snapcaster, Snapcaster. I had hit 2 Enter the Infinites on turn 1. He only had 2 left! Ha! I then looked at my remaining resources. Some lands and my initial GSZ. Having gotten quite tired during the day, I thought long and hard about if I could use it for anything. Deathrite or something else? Hmm? Is there anything else? I was about to get the deathrite, before I remembered Acidic slime! GSZ for slime, destroy omniscience. Since he only had 3 lands and then nothing I was able to kill him long before he could combo again.

The last game was very close, and fairly interesting. I think that Omnitell may actually be a somewhat good match up. 2-1


Semifinals: I then got paired against the top seed, who was the storm player that I lost to in round 4. I kept a good hand with therapy, explorer and good possibilities for an early Glen Elendra Archmage. He even mulliganed to 6. He led with probe into Ponder, keeping the cards. I played my therapy turn 1. I think that LED and Infernal Tutor are the two most important cards against us in ANT. I generally like to name LED, but since he had seen my therapy, I assumed that he would have played his LED. Therefore I named Tutor, and hit. The rest of his hand was land, dark ritual, dark ritual, duress. This game seemed to be going very well. I could take the rituals the next turn and the duress did not matter. Sadly he had Ad Nauseam on top and killed me turn 2.

Game 2 I kept a good hand and we quickly arrived at position where I passed on turn 3 with a pilferer and deathrite in play. I had one untapped land and a hand of Brainstorm, Force of Will, Envelop and Glen Elendra Archmage. On his turn he led with a dark ritual. He only had one black source, if he did not have any more in hand. I considered forcing it for a second, but opted not to. He then took my force and envelop with duress and cabal therapy. Then he comboed off with LED and tutor. With tutor on the stack my hand was archmage and brainstorm. I brainstormed off of deathrite, looking for one of my 4 outs (3 force, 1 envelop). Luckily I hit Force and Strix, putting Archmage as the first card on top. I forced and played archmage for the win.

In game 3 I had a lot of discard. Both therapy and riptide pilferer. I played his two LEDs to protect them and I was able to get him hellbent. Unfortunately one of those cards was Past in Flames. Luckily when he cracked a LED to flash it back, I had just drawn envelop to counter it. Meanwhile i had beaten him down to 14. He drew Ad Nauseam of the top and could crack LED with it on the stack. I had no disruption. Luckily, he killed himself.

I was a bit lucky in game 2 and 3, but I had just enough disruption to make the needed events actual outs. ANT is the match up that I have tested the most with BUG Pod, probably 15-20 post board games. In addition to the standard anti combo plan, scavenging ooze can also shut down Past in Flames. Post board, I like the Pod side of the match up, but not by a lot. I like this match up a lot less than the Omnitell match up. It is probably in their favour, but it is still completely winnable. 2-1


Finals: The other player to make top 2 was the Dredge player that I had faced in the swiss. He was the 8th seed, so I got to play first. I believe that I led with deathrite into turn three Deed once again. This time, however, his deck was not failing him. He dredged multiple narcomoebas, sac outlets, bridges and ichorids and kept rolling. I was eventually able to kill all but 1 of his bridges and had deathrite, strix and anoth couple of bodies. Even though I was at 5 life after he attacked for his turn, it seemed that I would be able to stabilize. He thought for a while, before deciding to sac his 3 zombies to dread return Griselbrand. I had lost my strix blocking a zombie. It was not favourable for him to draw cards at the time, so he passed the turn. I had another strix and my Phantasmal Image, which I had held for a while. I copied Griselbrand, and played the strix. The text coverage team liked the phantasmal image. His deck was mostly gone, I had deed so he could not swarm me. He could attack with 3 ichorids per turn but that nets me 1 life. He could not attack with Griselbrand since strix would trade, allowing my griselbrand to take over the game. After a good while of thought, he decided that he did not have any outs to my board, and scooped.

Game 2 was quick and not at all as grand as the first one. He played a land and passes. I passed back. He Firestormed EOT to discard two dredgers. He did not hit any more dredgers in the top 12 cards of his deck. I had my scavenging ooze in my opening hand, which completely shut down his game. The ooze got large and killed him.

I had imagined that dredge would be a fairly miserable match up, but after winning 4 out of 5 games against it, I am not so sure. I may just have gotten lucky, though. The deathrites and the ooze help a lot.


The deck surprised my by beating a couple of match ups that I thought would be fairly bad. I liked that I could beat combo, while still eating the delver decks alive. As for potential changes, I am rather clueless. The most deck "innovation" I have ever done is to cut Arianrhod's Scapewish list down to 60 cards. I like all of the cards in the main deck (except for the Watery Grave, which should obviously be an Underground Sea). I like the sideboard as well. Initially I thought that Notion Thief would be too cute, but he has proven to be good against all Jace decks, especially Shardless BUG. As I understand it they can't choose to not cast a suspended visions, so he doesn't even need to be cast in response to brainstorm to be a blow out. They can hardly get rid of him as well. I also like him against every combo deck that plays cantrips. Since your plan is to shut them down completely, turning off their cantrips when they are hellbent is very good. You can also catch the odd Griselbrand draw 7 or Enter the Infinite (though that may be quite a risk) which is hilarious, but not the function of the card. The Riptide Pilferers are very good. Forces are nice, allowing you to tap out. I would not consider Pod or blue without them (though I have no tournament experience with white pod, to be fair). As for what is missing in the sideboard, at first as was very worried by the lack of graveyard hate. It did not turn out to be an issue, though. Against the grindier decks I would perhaps like a second recurring nightmare, as it is the nuts. I don't know how to find space for it, though.

I liked the deck in a mixed meta, with both a lot of fair decks and a lot of combo. If the meta was mostly fair (which mine was until recently), I would stick to Scapewish. Scapewish demolishes all of the fair decks. I have found pod to occasionally struggle against some of the mid range decks. From testing I am not even sure that I like the Shardless BUG match up. If you can stick a Pod, you usually win. If not, you usually lose (barring Notion Thief blow outs). With Scapeshift I have never lost a tounament match to Goblins or Merfolk. In my limited testing against them with Pod, I have lost more than I have won. That may be due to inexperience with the deck and my Scapewish play style which is mostly focused on stalling into a combo kill versus those decks.

I will be attending the Legacy GP in Paris in February. I consider playing BUG Pod, but I do not know what the general European meta is like.

[Tao]

Nice report. It is fairly impressive to beat so many Combo matchups in a row and it is certainly a good sign for the deck.

[Star|Scream]

thanks for the report. May I ask why there are no Underground Seas in your list?

[Svknoe]

I only own one, and I had lent it to the ANT player. It is only very occasionally awkward for me to not have a proper Underground Sea in the deck.

I am pleasently surprised about how good it is against combo, compared to the other Nic Fit variants I have tried. I not sure, but it is possible that I would rather face Omnitell than a random opponent. Almost everything seems quite beatable. I guess that I would be destoyed by 12post, but I don't worry about that.

There were a number of lines that I had not considered before. I find it particularily funny that Grave titan will race Emrakul, given only a few permanents on your board.

[GtF]

Thanks for the report Svknoe, great to see you had some success with the list and that the anti-combo SB is working out.
I agree with your evaluations of the matchups. Dredge is favorable due to all the graveyard hate, deeds, and ability to sacrifice creatures to get bridges out of the yard.
Show and Tell variants are decent as well with this SB since there's all the disruption plus the ability to randomly get them by putting in a Sower of Temptation or something off of Show and Tell.
Storm combo decks are the scariest for sure, but still managable postboard.
Additional spot removal (like another Abrupt Decay) could help a bit with the fair matchups. I agree though, you give up a little bit in the fair matchups by adding blue in order to help with the combo matchups. For the European metagame this seems worth it, because from my North American perspective it seems like they really like their combo decks in Europe.

Right now I'm experimenting with a 4 color version splashing white for Orzhov Pontiff to combat True Name Nemesis. As an added bonus, we get Harmonic Sliver and Gaddock Teeg/Ethersworn Cannonist out of the board. However, this might be too much for the mana to handle. I'm still testing it out to see if that's really the case. With Pontiff in the deck, I think it makes Golgari Charm unnecessary so that frees up a sideboard slot. I was also unimpressed with Notion Thief and have cut it, mainly because the True-Name decks seem to have really reduced Shardless BUG's popularity.

[Svknoe]

I am glad to hear that I have figured out the main concerns in the match ups. I am not certain that additional spot removal is the solution for the fair deck match ups. I very broad terms there are the tempo delver decks and the value mid range decks. Abrupt Decay is good against the tempo decks, but the tempo match up seems very good already. Compared to other Nic Fit versions BUG Pod gets to play Deathrite and Strix, which are almost absurdly good against the delver decks. If you simply play around their soft counters, primarily daze, then it almost seems difficult lose. I admit that I have not played very much Delver with BUG Pod, but I have played it a number of times with other Nic Fit decks and this one seems even better. Our cards are much better than theirs, and with Deathrite and Strix, our cards are better from the beginning. Therefore additional is not needed against them, even though it would further skew the match up towards us, I suppose. I do not as of yet know too much about TNNs impact on these match ups. As long as it is not equiped I think that the deck is fast and big enough to run right over its head.

Versus the mid range decks the problem is not that we cannot answer their threats, but that their cards are better than ours. That is not strictly true, as our strategy is more powerful overall. We have a few absurdly powerful cards that put their decks to shame, such as Grave Titan and Grave Titan. But if they counter or discard our key cards, we are faced with the problem that Shardless (not to mention Jace) agent is better than Redcap. We can kill their stuff and stabilize, but in the end it is us that runs out of cards. Therefore I think that additional spot removal may be detrimental to our match up versus the blue mid range decks. I believe that it may be possible that we have a good match up against regardless. I think that the most important thing in these match ups is to use cabal therapy to protect your bombs and resolve them. This deck is so value ridden that Jace may be acceptable. In testing I have, from an empty board, grinded out an opposing board of both Jace and Elspeth. Resolve a Pod and almost any creatures and Jace is not that bad, contrary to my experiences with other Nic Fit decks. Although you don't want Jace to happen, by all means.

I am interested in seeing how the 4 colour version turns out. The white splash options are powerful. However, I think that the mana will not be stable enough to warrant the splash. Getting mana screwed by an unstable mana base and wasteland seems a bit too much. If it works, I would like to try it, though. Do you think that you would have to cut back on the number of basics in order to support a stable 4 colour mana base?

Regarding Notion Thief you may be right. I think that the local meta adapts a little bit slower than the SCG tournaments, as people are still building Shardless BUG decks. I'll see if the meta changes, but keeping trying it for a while more.

EDIT: I have mainly played against combo, both in testing and in the tournament. My thoughts on the fair match ups may very well just be wrong.

[Megadeus]

So if I am not playing Force of Will (due to temporary budget concerns) is Riptide Pilferer even necessary? Or would you guys rather like a Hippie Spec (in BUG Pod) ?

[Svknoe]

I think that Pilferer is still good enough, but I would probably play Headhunter instead. He is a little bit easier to cast, I think. I think that the draw of BUG Pod compared to other Nic Fit decks is that you have a fine combo match up. If you can't run force of will, I fear that that will no longer be true. That would defeat the purpose of playing blue pod altogether.

EDIT: Concerning the Hippo, the random discard is very nice, but tapping out on turn 3 to pressure their hand on turn 4 is not acceptable. Especially without force. You can of cource ramp it out with explorer or deathrite, in which case it might be fast enough. I do not liking having to ramp into it, though.

[pfiremc13]

Can I see an example of a sideboard with headhunter/riptide pilferer?

[Megadeus]

Taken from Svknoe's list on the last page:

SIDEBOARD
2 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
4 Force of Will

[haganbmj]

So if I am not playing Force of Will (due to temporary budget concerns) is Riptide Pilferer even necessary? Or would you guys rather like a Hippie Spec (in BUG Pod) ?

Deus can borrow the Forces I have never cast.

They certainly seem relevant in the sideboard given Svknoe's list.

[Megadeus]

Deus can borrow the Forces I have never cast.

They certainly seem relevant in the sideboard given Svknoe's list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHFy3YWpRx8

[GtF]

I am glad to hear that I have figured out the main concerns in the match ups. I am not certain that additional spot removal is the solution for the fair deck match ups. I very broad terms there are the tempo delver decks and the value mid range decks. Abrupt Decay is good against the tempo decks, but the tempo match up seems very good already. Compared to other Nic Fit versions BUG Pod gets to play Deathrite and Strix, which are almost absurdly good against the delver decks. If you simply play around their soft counters, primarily daze, then it almost seems difficult lose. I admit that I have not played very much Delver with BUG Pod, but I have played it a number of times with other Nic Fit decks and this one seems even better. Our cards are much better than theirs, and with Deathrite and Strix, our cards are better from the beginning. Therefore additional is not needed against them, even though it would further skew the match up towards us, I suppose. I do not as of yet know too much about TNNs impact on these match ups. As long as it is not equiped I think that the deck is fast and big enough to run right over its head.

Versus the mid range decks the problem is not that we cannot answer their threats, but that their cards are better than ours. That is not strictly true, as our strategy is more powerful overall. We have a few absurdly powerful cards that put their decks to shame, such as Grave Titan and Grave Titan. But if they counter or discard our key cards, we are faced with the problem that Shardless (not to mention Jace) agent is better than Redcap. We can kill their stuff and stabilize, but in the end it is us that runs out of cards. Therefore I think that additional spot removal may be detrimental to our match up versus the blue mid range decks. I believe that it may be possible that we have a good match up against regardless. I think that the most important thing in these match ups is to use cabal therapy to protect your bombs and resolve them. This deck is so value ridden that Jace may be acceptable. In testing I have, from an empty board, grinded out an opposing board of both Jace and Elspeth. Resolve a Pod and almost any creatures and Jace is not that bad, contrary to my experiences with other Nic Fit decks. Although you don't want Jace to happen, by all means.

I am interested in seeing how the 4 colour version turns out. The white splash options are powerful. However, I think that the mana will not be stable enough to warrant the splash. Getting mana screwed by an unstable mana base and wasteland seems a bit too much. If it works, I would like to try it, though. Do you think that you would have to cut back on the number of basics in order to support a stable 4 colour mana base?

Regarding Notion Thief you may be right. I think that the local meta adapts a little bit slower than the SCG tournaments, as people are still building Shardless BUG decks. I'll see if the meta changes, but keeping trying it for a while more.

EDIT: I have mainly played against combo, both in testing and in the tournament. My thoughts on the fair match ups may very well just be wrong.

Yeah, you make a good point about the midrange matchups. Maybe another big threat, like an Aetherling, another Recurring Nightmare, or a Jace of our own would be the way to go.
I did cut down on the number of basics to 5, so far this hasn't been a problem but my testing has been limited. I'll keep you posted.

[tons of fun]

ok so i been brewing 2 kinds of fit ninja fit and artifact nic fit

[Zorker]

Could someone explain how i recognize a hand to keep from one to mulligan?.

with veteran explorer in play, i should only ramp if i have a follow up?

[Svknoe]

What is a keep and what is a mulligan depends a lot on your deck and the match up. As a general guideline, your hand needs to be able to interact with your opponent and stop their plan. If you have to hope to draw something during the first 2-3 turns for the hand to be good, it is generally a mulligan. I think that against combo, every hand without at the very list one piece of fast interaction with their combo is a mulligan. But that depends heavily on your plan on how to deal with them. What are you playing? Do you have any specific match ups in mind?

Whether or not to ramp with Veteran Explorer also depends on the context. If the basics are useful to your opponent that favours not ramping without a follow up. If you are planning to ramp by flashing back Cabal Therapy, you might want the flash backed therapy even if you can't use the lands this turn. This will generally happen if they will cast a threat next turn that you will have trouble dealing with. If you are playing versus a non-Miracles white deck, such as UWR delver, you want to kill explorer immediately, without ever passing priority after casting him. This is to dodge swords to plowshares.

[Zorker]

@svknoe: thanks a lot.

the deck i'm playing is a copy paste of the punishing fit in the Op/primer, the match ups i usually worry about are the ones which you can't interact a lot(Belcher/dredge/ant) also 12post.



Also If you are playing versus a non-Miracles white deck, such as UWR delver, you want to kill explorer immediately, without ever passing priority after casting him. This is to dodge swords to plowshares..

Could you please clarify this one?:

1) cast explorer(do i have to give him priority so he could counter it?)
2) If explorer etb i have to sac him asap so the opponent can't plow him(correct?, this works because i didn't pass priority).



Also: After buying the staples for evry version of this deck : Veteran Explorer, Cabal therapy, Green sun zenith, Eternal witness, Thrun, the Last Troll, Thragtusk , Primeval Titan/Black titan , Should i start buying fetches or duals?

[Svknoe]

I am sorry I was was not clear enough about swords to plowshares. I meant the second one, where you let explorer resolve and don't pass priority. You are correct.

As for duals versus fetches, I think that the fetches are more important in a deck with top. Top is only really good if you have sufficient shuffle effects. Though painful, the duals can be approximated by shocks. One Bayou to fetch for would also help a lot.

As for the match ups, they don't seem good at all. I believe that 12 post is nigh unbeatable, and that you should not worry about that match up. I have tested some with punishing fit versus ANT. Preboard is horrible. The plan to win is to slow them down with the discard spells and keep them down with Liliana. You also need Ooze to keep their graveyard as clean as possible, since Past in Flames eventually beats your discard. I would mulligan any hand that does not support this plan. The post board plan for mulliganing is mostly the same, but you have better cards. You may also win if you draw Slaughter Games and make it to casting it. Many ANT decks play Tendrils as their only win con, in case you just win. If they are not on such a version, naming Infernal Tutor seems good. I don't have any experience with the two other match ups with Punishing Fit. Versus dredge ooze seems to be your best card. Deed can slow them down. Keeping hands containing Explorer, Ooze, GSZ and Deed seems good. To beat Belcher I think that you almost have to hope that they go for Empty the Warrens. If they do that and you Deed, you should win. If they are on the play I would keep hands with explorer and deed, so that you are fast enough. I you are on the play I would keep hands containing discard and deed. I would name Belcher.

[Zorker]

very helpful explanations, thanks.

[pfiremc13]

Taken from Svknoe's list on the last page:

SIDEBOARD
2 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
4 Force of Will

*facepalm*

Wouldn't extraction effects be good here? They can win games on the spot vs. combo.

[Megadeus]

*facepalm*

Wouldn't extraction effects be good here? They can win games on the spot vs. combo.

This is true. I totally forgot about extraction effects. However, I think that is a general plan for non blue versions that dont have access to force. Force + Blue card is much more likely than having Surgical + TS/Therapy


What is a keep and what is a mulligan depends a lot on your deck and the match up. As a general guideline, your hand needs to be able to interact with your opponent and stop their plan. If you have to hope to draw something during the first 2-3 turns for the hand to be good, it is generally a mulligan. I think that against combo, every hand without at the very list one piece of fast interaction with their combo is a mulligan. But that depends heavily on your plan on how to deal with them. What are you playing? Do you have any specific match ups in mind?

Whether or not to ramp with Veteran Explorer also depends on the context. If the basics are useful to your opponent that favours not ramping without a follow up. If you are planning to ramp by flashing back Cabal Therapy, you might want the flash backed therapy even if you can't use the lands this turn. This will generally happen if they will cast a threat next turn that you will have trouble dealing with. If you are playing versus a non-Miracles white deck, such as UWR delver, you want to kill explorer immediately, without ever passing priority after casting him. This is to dodge swords to plowshares.


Agreed. The first time I played Nic Fit, when miracles was a bigger deck, I would immediately flashback my cabal therapy to trigger explorer even without a follow up. Then he would slam his T2 Jace and I would wonder why I wasnt winning. Vs miracles you should show patience. I think Meta knowledge is extremely helpful for a Nic Fit player, as it not only allows you to hit better with Therapy, but with this deck, timing your spells and sequencing your plays are very important in getting the most out of them.

[nedleeds]

Vs. miracles you should just lose the explorers and play carpets / choke / planeswalkers.

[Megadeus]

Vs. miracles you should just lose the explorers and play carpets / choke / planeswalkers.

True. In the straight GB build I played more than a year ago that was my plan. Does anyone still run Garruk primal Hunter? That man is a BEATING

[Svknoe]

Agreed on force versus surgical. I have found surgical to be a bit inconsistent, though that is fine if the match up is rough. I don't think that surgical is required in the Pod deck, as the deck already has a plan to lock them out. When you have the counters to slow them down, I like Glen Elendra as a way to shut them down.

I think that Garruk, Primal hunter can be good in the Punishing Fire version. I havn't taken it to a tournament yet, though.

[pfiremc13]

This is true. I totally forgot about extraction effects. However, I think that is a general plan for non blue versions that dont have access to force. Force + Blue card is much more likely than having Surgical + TS/Therapy

Why not memoricide/cranial? All you need is 1 ramp source to play them on t3, which is as soon as pilferer becomes relevant. In addition, they can name something that your opponent doesn't draw (very relevant with tendrils vs ant). They serve a very different role to force. Extraction effects exile wincons but cost a lot of mana, while force is free but can only counter one thing, and can't counter wincons. That's why I was thinking of replacing pilferers with memoricide/extraction.

His pod list specifically runs 8 ramp sources, so I don't think that would be too much of a problem. In addition, the list has so much countermagic that stalling to t4 doesn't seem like a problem either.

[Megadeus]

I mean Slaughter Games works for the Jund colored versions right? I'm not insinuating that you are wrong. You should definitely test it out. I think the point of Svknoe is that if you are playing Pod, and you want to be in blue, the best reason to be in blue is giving yourself Force of Will (and brainstorm). If you want to be in pod and you dont want Force, then other colors are generally better options.

[GtF]

Why not memoricide/cranial? All you need is 1 ramp source to play them on t3, which is as soon as pilferer becomes relevant. In addition, they can name something that your opponent doesn't draw (very relevant with tendrils vs ant). They serve a very different role to force. Extraction effects exile wincons but cost a lot of mana, while force is free but can only counter one thing, and can't counter wincons. That's why I was thinking of replacing pilferers with memoricide/extraction.

His pod list specifically runs 8 ramp sources, so I don't think that would be too much of a problem. In addition, the list has so much countermagic that stalling to t4 doesn't seem like a problem either.

It would be great to have cranial in addition to FOW and Pilferer, but as long as you have to make a choice due to SB space considerations I'd rather have FOW and Pilferer. The reason is that many combo decks play multiple win conditions (Sneak attack + Show and tell, Burning wish + Infernal Tutor), so countering the one they have rather than extracting one and having them draw the other seems better. Pilferer also really pressures them to have to go off quickly, it can strip their auxiliary resources (Extra FOWs they may have) which can let the rest of your resistence work. And it is blue for force of will and a creature for Pod so it works well with those.
Same logic applies to surgical, though I have considered wanting one for punishing fire in the punishing jund matchup.

[pfiremc13]

I mean Slaughter Games works for the Jund colored versions right? I'm not insinuating that you are wrong. You should definitely test it out. I think the point of Svknoe is that if you are playing Pod, and you want to be in blue, the best reason to be in blue is giving yourself Force of Will (and brainstorm). If you want to be in pod and you dont want Force, then other colors are generally better options.

I'm not questioning force. I'm questioning pilferer.


It would be great to have cranial in addition to FOW and Pilferer, but as long as you have to make a choice due to SB space considerations I'd rather have FOW and Pilferer. The reason is that many combo decks play multiple win conditions (Sneak attack + Show and tell, Burning wish + Infernal Tutor), so countering the one they have rather than extracting one and having them draw the other seems better. Pilferer also really pressures them to have to go off quickly, it can strip their auxiliary resources (Extra FOWs they may have) which can let the rest of your resistence work. And it is blue for force of will and a creature for Pod so it works well with those.
Same logic applies to surgical, though I have considered wanting one for punishing fire in the punishing jund matchup.

Good point. Though I don't think tes normally splits wincons between main and side, the point about other decks is quite relevant.

(The point of all this questioning was to see if I wanted to add headhunter to thune fit. However, I think that the reasons bug pod wants pilferer (blue for force, good vs. other combo decks) are not really applicable to thune fit, which is mostly worried about storm.)

[Megadeus]

In that cae, not sure if it is worth it in Thune or not. Also fwiw vs TES, Surgicaling their Burning wish generally cuts them off of Tendrils and leaves them on the Empty plan. Assuming they didnt board in Tendrils.

[Svknoe]

I think that the reason that Pilferer is very in BUG Pod is that you can hold up counters while beating with it. The Pilferer gives them incentive to go off right away and not wait for protection, while the counters stop just that. If they then fizzle trying to combo, staring down a pilferer, they are close to dead. The threat of discard every turn is very strong combined with counters. I you do not play counters and cast a Headhunter, you run the risk of dying on one of the two following turns. Targeted discard seems much more suited to buy time if your plan is to make to cast a cranial extraction effect. Headhunter might be playable i Thune, but I suspect that extraction effects are better suited for Thune's path to victory.

[pfiremc13]

And there's that too.

GBW definitely doesn't have as strong of a supplemental hate plan, and what it does have is in the form of 2-drops which compete with the 'hunter.

[Svknoe]

That is true indeed. The very strong white hate bears make the Headhunters seem quite bad. I think that the hate bears synergise well with the extraction effects, creating a prison where they can't play their combo. Headhunter attacks from another angle entirely. I don't think that those different angles synergise too well with each other.

[uncletiggy]

Is there any merit to exploring doubling season in walker heavy rector lists I just imagine dropping and ulting walkers could be really devastating even tho it doesn't help them tick up.

[Megadeus]

BUG Pod on cam for Legion Games right now. Nothing like brainstorming for your clutch Thragtusk to put the game out of reach. I forgot about Fleshbag Marauder. Seems AWESOME in pod.

[Zorker]

link for the stream?

[Svknoe]

http://www.twitch.tv/legiongamesmn/b/488255836

The Pod games start a few minutes before the 2 hour mark.

It's nice to see some games. I don't like playing important cards like explorer and pod into daze. Especially not on the draw. That the opponent started of with Tropical Island into Brainstorm was a strong indication that he was playing RUG.

[Zorker]

thanks svkoe, was he playing canadian?

[Svknoe]

Yes. The opponent was playing canadian thresh or RUG Delver.

[Megadeus]

I'll be on almost fully foiled out BUG Pod tonight. Hopefully it goes well for my first attempt. Unfortunately my LGS doesnt have any Swan Songs so 2 Negates in the board for me!

[Svknoe]

Best of luck with that! What does your list look like? I'd like to hear how Negate works out. I liked that you can easily hold up Envelop while beating with pilferer and doing other things.

[Megadeus]

Best of luck with that! What does your list look like? I'd like to hear how Negate works out. I liked that you can easily hold up Envelop while beating with pilferer and doing other things.

List is...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Phantasmal Image
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thrun
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

3 Birthing Pod
2 DEED
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Brainstorm
2 Green Sun

4 Catacomb
4 Misty
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp


SB:
4 Force of Will
2 Negate
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
1 Deed
3 Pilferer
3 Thoughtseize



Its pretty close to you list. I wanted to base my initial list off of something that has had success.

[Megadeus]

Sorry for double post. With the above list I went 2-2. Not too bad. Lost to Shardless due to flood, and D&T due to Bricking on lands off of Brainstorm. I was like 5 for 7 on blind Therapies which was pretty sweet. Sniping bitches. My meta honestly doesnt even need force of will. Ill probably cut it and the pilferers to go up to 3 Swan Songs, a few Golgari Charm, and a few other flex slots. Also probably drop the SB Glen Elendra Archmage. I beat Jund and UR Delver. Basically every game I boarded out Glen Elendra and brought in Deed

[Svknoe]

Interesting. If there is not enough combo for you to want Force of Will I think that I would not play the blue pod deck. Other Nic Fit variants seem stronger against most of those decks. How did Thrun fare? I would have imagined that he would not synergise too well with a pod deck.

[Megadeus]

Interesting. If there is not enough combo for you to want Force of Will I think that I would not play the blue pod deck. Other Nic Fit variants seem stronger against most of those decks. How did Thrun fare? I would have imagined that he would not synergise too well with a pod deck.

I like the blue actually. Baleful Strix is really good in a Delver and Goyf Meta like mine. Notion Thief is sweet vs Shardless. Image, Sower, brainstorm, all were very good for me. The only issue was my SB which is just not that good in my local due to lack of combo. There was a Dredge deck, a rouge hermit, and a sort of elves build with Buried Alive and vengevines. Plus Blue has a certain fun factor. I hate White spells lol.

I never drew Thrun, and I only got to activate Pod like twice so I was never chaining up. I just figured he is solid vs Jace, which I felt was somewhat of an Issue for me. I do agree that he probably doesn't synergize well and maybe he isn't good enough. Unfortunately next week is Christmas so I have 2 weeks until I get to play it again.

Honestly it was a weird night. Like I said, I only got to activate pod twice and I think I cast Green sun (2 of) 1 time and that was for Scavenging Ooze vs UR Delver. So basically it was just me playing EDH vs Legacy decks lol. Pile of 1 ofs.

Also I really liked brainstorm for shuffling away random 6 drops that I would have in my hand when I dont have an explorer hand. That was nice.

[GtF]

I like the blue actually. Baleful Strix is really good in a Delver and Goyf Meta like mine. Notion Thief is sweet vs Shardless. Image, Sower, brainstorm, all were very good for me. The only issue was my SB which is just not that good in my local due to lack of combo. There was a Dredge deck, a rouge hermit, and a sort of elves build with Buried Alive and vengevines. Plus Blue has a certain fun factor. I hate White spells lol.

I never drew Thrun, and I only got to activate Pod like twice so I was never chaining up. I just figured he is solid vs Jace, which I felt was somewhat of an Issue for me. I do agree that he probably doesn't synergize well and maybe he isn't good enough. Unfortunately next week is Christmas so I have 2 weeks until I get to play it again.

Honestly it was a weird night. Like I said, I only got to activate pod twice and I think I cast Green sun (2 of) 1 time and that was for Scavenging Ooze vs UR Delver. So basically it was just me playing EDH vs Legacy decks lol. Pile of 1 ofs.

Also I really liked brainstorm for shuffling away random 6 drops that I would have in my hand when I dont have an explorer hand. That was nice.

I hate to admit it, but it probably is correct to just play 4 brainstorm in this deck (and any deck). It really helps with the flooding/manascrew issues which seem to be the main way you lose in a deck that has a bunch of high mana cost creatures like this. Maybe this means playing 61 cards, I'm not sure. I'm sorry Queerios!

Is it completely crazy to switch to 2 GSZ and 3 Veteran Explorer? The value of vet seems to go down dramatically after the first one (it also doesn't help that I switched to only 5 basics in the 4 color build I'm testing) and topdecking vets later on would be less good than topdecking a GSZ. Theoretically you still have the same number total.

I could see Thrun as a nice SB card vs Jace decks but it doesn't seem like a great maindeck card to me. Depends on the metagame I suppose.

[Megadeus]

3 veteran doesnt seem terrible. Especially when you are also playing DRS as an alternative mana source. I may actually cut down to 3 Vets and 4 BS next week (already on 61 cards). The one issue I see however is that veteran is the best card in the deck for sacrificing to Cabal Therapy. I dont want to sacrifice a DRS to it, and Strix is fine, but against Goyf decks Id usually just rather have him there to be a wall for Goyf.

As for Thrun, I'm not saying you guys are wrong, that is just my reasoning for playing him. Once I get more testing time in with the deck I will be able to give a better opinion.

[Svknoe]

It definitely seems correct to play 4 Brainstorm. It is almost always excellent, even in multiples. Personally I don't like the 61st card, though that is not as important. I would cut almost anything for the 4th Brainstorm. This may be a deck that is fine with 3 Explorers, I do not know for sure. The deck seems to have less of a use for heaps and heaps of lands, even though you would like to trigger an explorer most most games. GSZ seemed fine to me, but not sepctecular. Many of our creatures are not blue. One reason to play the 4th Explorer over the 2nd GSZ is the tempo match up. It can be hard to get GSZ for 1 around daze and spell pierce in a timely manner, while explorer dodges both easily.

[Megadeus]

Brainstorm allows your deck to be more consistent in games that you don't draw a pod. It allows you to better find the non green singletons and mitigate flood and put back pod targets.

[UseLess]

My last tournament was crap and made me question my SB, after a not so great tournament before that where I started doubting it. I'm playing a BUGr fit list (here) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=768452&highlight=#post768452) that is rather controlish. Only change is -1 Far/Away, +1 Eternal Witness (which has served me well!). While having 4 Negate and 2 Counterspell main, combo still remains difficult and I noted that Daze was not as good as I hoped/thought it would be. This was my old SB:

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Innocent blood

I'm now thinking of cutting 3 Daze for 2 Flusterstorm, which should be much much better against (storm) combo. I'm pondering about switching the hydroblasts for pyroblasts, but I only run a single mountain, so that seems a bit too inconsistent. Extirpate will probably become Surgical Extraction since the split second hardly matters in the matches where I want to use it. My final slot I'd like to dedicate to Batterskull, because I hate the card. Faced it a couple of times now and I just can't get rid of the damn thing. When I have the mana for Pernicious deed to kill it, my opponent usually has the mana to bounce it to his/her hand and hence save it. Any tips, tricks, comments and suggestions are welcome! I'm very happy with the main deck, it's just the SB that's a bit iffy still.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ UseLess:

Try the following for your sideboard:

-3 Daze
-2 Extirpate
-2 Hydroblast
+2 Glen Elendra Archmage
+1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 ??? (Hydroblast seems very in application, that's all. I would say Carpet of Flowers would be good here)

The Melira Archmage package provides a kind of hard lock against most kinds of combo (Elves! being the most noticeable exception), which is almost necessary for an end-game control deck like Nic Fit to survive long enough against combo to win.

Surgical over Extirpate because Paying 2 life is better than having to wait a turn to extract key targets.

Hydroblast ... just seems odd ... not sure what to put in other than Carpet of Flowers (which helps against UW control with Terminus and StP negating Veteran).

[pfiremc13]

My final slot I'd like to dedicate to Batterskull, because I hate the card. Faced it a couple of times now and I just can't get rid of the damn thing. When I have the mana for Pernicious deed to kill it, my opponent usually has the mana to bounce it to his/her hand and hence save it. Any tips, tricks, comments and suggestions are welcome! I'm very happy with the main deck, it's just the SB that's a bit iffy still.

I've had problems with batterskull in the past as well. The way I beat it is generally to go over the top. Nic fit is very threat-heavy, and top helps with that plan. Having a 'skull of your own in the side will help you.

[Tao]

There are two options to deal with Batterskull:

- go over the top where Batterskull doesn't matter anymore. With your list, if you have an active Jace or Sphinx, Batterskull becomes irrelevant pretty quickly. They have to pay 8 to replay it while you only pay 2 for a Decay.
- Use the Deed at the end of your opponent's turn, then Therapy it away it (or in your case you can also Negate it when they replay it).

[civet five]

There are two options to deal with Batterskull:

- go over the top where Batterskull doesn't matter anymore. With your list, if you have an active Jace or Sphinx, Batterskull becomes irrelevant pretty quickly. They have to pay 8 to replay it while you only pay 2 for a Decay.
- Use the Deed at the end of your opponent's turn, then Therapy it away it (or in your case you can also Negate it when they replay it).

I've been durdling with adding a Trygon Predator or Viridian Shaman to the 75 to deal with this. Also briefly tried Memnarch, but he was too cute.

Separately, I ran a bunch of matches against Manaless and got stomped. DRS is bad in that matchup as it can't deal with Bridges, and you're at the mercy of finding Scavenging Ooze to eat their Bridges, then Dredgers, and all the while playing around cycling and Phantasmagorian tricks. Both Mana'ed and Manaless Dredge have gotten more popular around me recently, so I'm also toying with a 2nd Ooze or a Withered Wretch - while the Wretch is almost certainly worse, BB isn't that hard to hit and the fact that it can use colorless mana means you can always hit cards in the graveyard. I also still deal with other GY strategies (reanimator, kotr, snapcaster mage), and its nice to have more options for nuking the yard vs. DRS's one at at time.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Surgical Extraction is a necessity against any kind of dredge, though it takes some tricks to work around Street Wraith shenanigans (i.e. targeting something in their yard with Ooze or DRS, then Extracting it in response to shenanigans).

Also, when you're naming something with Therapy, name Bridges before flashback then LED after flashback to get rid of Bridges and LEDs.

[MD.Ghost]

I've had problems with batterskull in the past as well. The way I beat it is generally to go over the top. Nic fit is very threat-heavy, and top helps with that plan. Having a 'skull of your own in the side will help you.

Deed + Discard after bounce, especially if you get a liliana online (as tao recommend, play 3 in punishing fit!). Sure if it doesnt work, batterskull can be a pain and hard to remove. Thanks to TNN, bladelists are back again, so you will see a skull (and its strength against our common mid/lategame plan) more often. Instead of weird Nic Fit solutions like "Viridian Shaman" (a house in elves) you can add something like Wickerbough Elder (also works against some other situations with enchantments - show&tell etc.).

----------

After one year tournament league in berlin, we played the top 16 finals yesterday with some other established players like Carsten Kötter.

I decided to play Punishing Fit (everyone expected that i play elves) for some surprising action. After i get some last minute meta information i made small adjustments to the tao's primer list:

Main:
-1 Diabolic Intend (don't like a 4th sensei anyway)
+1 Deathrite Shaman (more outs against Dredge etc.)

-1 Huntmaster of the Fells (i ordered one more, but it doesn't arrived fast enough)
+ Kitchen Finks ("small huntmaster")

-1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Kessig Wolf Run (really like it, but both lands are strong enough - Volrath's get better, with the meta swing from Xbg Deathrite+Decay Decks to UWx TNN Blade Decks)

-1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Maelstrom Pulse (sometimes you need a faster answer, Pulse can also get Planeswalkers and some bigger stuff and will not suffer from stifle)

Side:
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Surgical Extraction (3 Copys against Dredge/Reanimate and it will also work against other combos)

Matchups:

Round 1 vs BUG Control:
Game 1 and 2 are very similiar, i overcome him in ressources and stomped him with the deck choices. He quickly surrender both games. Noteable he played the annoying Lands.dec most tournaments this year and i lost every matchup against him. After he played underground sea, bayou and deathrite game 1 i smelled that the time for revenge has come. Good start for this day!

Round 2 vs MUD
Game 1 he get an early chalice (glad to not play elves), i zenith into explorer which dies honourable against Lodestone Golem. I quickly ramp into mana and play deed for 6 to kill chalice+lodestone+wurmcoil engine. After that i smash titan and finish one turn later with the following 9 mana chain: Liliana + Witness + Deed with Titan on the field against 2 wurmcoil tokens.
Game 2 he doesnt find All is dust, were i let him discard lodestone golem and slaughter games Steel Hellkite in his hand the turn before he drop it. Than i killed Metal Worker and follow with Liliana and Discard spells to get rid of the last bombs like karn and sundering titan. Witness and Finks beat him down before he recovers.

Round 3 vs UWr Blade (Jasper Grimmer)
Game 1 we changed some spells. Turn 4 he slams jace against my empty board and the game was over, he killed my with batterskull + sword of fire and ice and i can't find the right answers after his jace move.
Game 2 we switched it. Get a good combination of disruption with 2 Lilianas, after i played the first one into force. Follow it up with Witness to get the 4th landdrop and he plays his jace (which i saw in his hand after discard) right into my Red Blast. After that i get the 2nd Liliana working and we went to the next Game.
Game 3 it was a hard battle and very exciting but i cant find the right answers and he pressured me again with hardbeats from batterskull + Sword of fire and ice.

Round 4 vs BUG Delver
The winner get a Top 4 seat and normally it isn't a bad matchup for punishing fit.
Game 1 we changed spells, i play he removal he hymns me so we quickly entered topdeck mode. He play Liliana, i play Liliana. Sadly i topdecked Kitchen Finks and have 3! Swamps in Play and 1 Forest and 1 Badland/Mountain...so i discarded my own Finks. After that his topdeck was Decay for my liliana and than the games went in the wrong direction.... After i survived his liliana ultimate, but i can't find answers for double 6/7 (my sensei + liliana...) Gofy Beatdown. Without the wrong mana, Kitchen Finks (or 2nd Huntmaster in this slot) against the situation i described above would let me stay in a very good position...so i lost.
Game 2 After the common disruption from both sides in the first turns i can't find removal (with this deck...) to kill a single delver, besides one maelstrom pulse which eats a counter. He find his Grafedigger's Cage and i topdecked 2 Zeniths and can't profit from a creature with lifegain against his delver beats...

So i finished 2:2 but still ended at 6th places - not so bad.

Top 4 was UW Miracle, UWr Stoneblade, BUG Delver and bUrg Tempo. In the finals, Jasper won agains Carsten Kötter (with Miracle). Congrats to Jasper - Berlin Champion 2013 :)

Pros:
+played with some of my best friends
+fun games with my deck choice
+some good advice from tao
+slaughter games
+liliana

Cons:
+Lost badly against Tempo
+can't find the right answer against Batterskull
+top 4 games without non-blue decks

[Tao]

- One out vs. Batterskull that wasn't mentioned is Thrun. He can block it indefinitely, even when the Germ is also equipped with a SoFaI.

- I still think UWR is a good matchup. Jace is of course very good, especially after a quick start. Losing to a quick SFM/Skull is unlikely because of Therapy for the tutored equipment and Fire/Decay on the SFM. Losing to a Delver of Secrets really sucks. On the other hand beating MUD is not easy. I'd much rather play against Delver or UWR than against MUD.

- Reading your report I feel like 4 Tops might be the right call. You lost both games against Delver due to bad topdecking. You wouldn't draw the Finks with 3 Swamps in play and you wouldn't draw the dead GSZs and I can't imagine not finding a removal for Delver with a Top in play. Did the Deathrite Shaman that you played instead ever do anything for you or did it just get killed on sight?

[pfiremc13]

Deed + Discard after bounce, especially if you get a liliana online (as tao recommend, play 3 in punishing fit!). Sure if it doesnt work, batterskull can be a pain and hard to remove. Thanks to TNN, bladelists are back again, so you will see a skull (and its strength against our common mid/lategame plan) more often. Instead of weird Nic Fit solutions like "Viridian Shaman" (a house in elves) you can add something like Wickerbough Elder (also works against some other situations with enchantments - show&tell etc.).



I realize that deed + discard will deal with batterskull, however I play GBW and do not run liliana. I often find it hard to assemble deed + a random creature to flashback therapy or a therapy itself late in the game. I was just discussing how I generally beat it, not all of the ways to beat it.

[MD.Ghost]

- One out vs. Batterskull that wasn't mentioned is Thrun. He can block it indefinitely, even when the Germ is also equipped with a SoFaI.

- I still think UWR is a good matchup. Jace is of course very good, especially after a quick start. Losing to a quick SFM/Skull is unlikely because of Therapy for the tutored equipment and Fire/Decay on the SFM. Losing to a Delver of Secrets really sucks. On the other hand beating MUD is not easy. I'd much rather play against Delver or UWR than against MUD.

- Reading your report I feel like 4 Tops might be the right call. You lost both games against Delver due to bad topdecking. You wouldn't draw the Finks with 3 Swamps in play and you wouldn't draw the dead GSZs and I can't imagine not finding a removal for Delver with a Top in play. Did the Deathrite Shaman that you played instead ever do anything for you or did it just get killed on sight?

Yeah, Thrun can also be a good answer but i can't get him in the games i lost - or draw him way too late.

As you said, in the unlucky games against BUG Delver a 4th Top would be the right spell. Deathrite died sometimes and sometimes he shot a little bit. Overall (it is also one copy) he doesnt do very much in the 4 games. After the tournament i played 7 games against bUrg (a friend of mine who made top4) and Deathrite was "ok". It was another drop for the early game state, but i think about switching back to 2nd Huntmaster and 4th sensei (if i get one for the next tournament).

I had great fun with this deck and will continue to play it in the future.

[pfiremc13]

I'm thinking of building a standstill/bug pod list with multiple notion thiefs, factories, lots of spot removal and walkers. What do people think?

I have this list finally

3 swamp
4 island
2 forest
1 underground sea
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 phyrexian tower
1 verdant catacombs
2 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
3 mishra's factory

3 birthing pod
2 notion thief
4 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay
2 deathrite shaman
4 cabal therapy
4 veteran explorer
1 murderous redcap
2 kitchen finks
1 thragtusk
1 deceiver exarch
1 glen elendra archmage
1 grave titan
3 baleful strix
1 shriekmaw
3 standstill
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana of the veil

The point of this deck is to get ahead on board and to stay ahead. Early on, you want to land a deed to gain card advantage so you can develop your board thereafter. Failing that, you want to gain value by using baleful strix and spot removal creatures. Once that is accomplished, 'walkers, notion thief, and standstill let you stay ahead. Jace just lets you outdraw your opponent or seal their fate, and liliana forces them to cast stuff only to have it die. Notion thief makes sure your opponent can't draw their way out. The combination of mishra's factory, pod, 'walkers, and notion thief makes it almost impossible for your opponent to draw cards off of your standstill. If they don't cast stuff, they just die. If they cast stuff, you get to draw cards and most likely deal with whatever they have.

Why not just play landstill: The veteran explorer engine lets you accelerate into a lot of powerful stuff that is synergistic with standstill (pod, jace, notion thief, deed, value creatures)

Why not just play bug pod: This version runs out of gas a lot less quickly and I feel is better at grinding. Putting combo off their cantrips seems like it would help too. Both of those things need testing, however.

[Svknoe]

Interesting. Have you had an opportunity to test it yet? There are a few things that could be troublesome. Is there space for all of those colourless lands? Only playing 9 green sources doesn't seem acceptable when you are trying to cast veteran explorer and kitchen finks. If you are to play Standstill, the factories are obviously important, but I think that the Phyrexian tower and at least the 4th Island should be green sources. The deck should probably play Brainstorm, and some more fetches to support it better. At least in BUG Pod I am always delighted to see it. Do you think that you have enough creatures for Pod? I play a few more, and having too few is sometimes an issue. Deck space quickly becomes an issue, and it seems diffucult to play Pod, Standstill and Planeswalkers if you were to add Brainstorm. 2 main deck Notion Thief seems a bit weak to me, all though I admit that he is sweet with Standstill. To me, the most important issue seems to be the mana base.

[Allenthar]

Nic Fit Scapeshift - Tournament Report

Finally got a chance to take my Nic Fit list to a local Legacy tournament, and had an awesome time. I think we had about 30-40 people attending, and I luckily got to play against a different deck in each round.

Here's the list I took:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Burning Wish
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Sideboard:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pulverize

Matchups:

Lands
1-1-1

Probably the most tricked out deck I've ever seen, lots of foils, Guru lands, FBB duals. This matchup was really interesting, because I had only a few ways to interact with him. As far as I could tell his primary win conditions were Punishing Fire grind and Dark Depths /Thespian's Stage recurrence. In Game 1 I was able to Scapeshift him for 42 damage, which was enough to overcome him sacrifing his entire mana base to Zuran Orb. I made a bad mistake in game 2 where I didn't exile a Glacial Chasm with an active Scavenging Ooze, which prevented me from winning the next turn, giving him the time to kill me with Marit Lage. In all of the games, Slaughter Games outperformed, allowing me to strip him of his Life from the Loam engine and Punishing Fire. Last game went over time, but I would have Scapeshifted for lethal within 2 more turns.

UWR Delver
2-1

This matchup went pretty well, he had bad luck on trying to flip his Delvers in game 1. Game 2 he flipped a delver first turn and then managed to keep me from resolving a spell for the next 4 turns. Game 3 was actually pretty close, with a small misplay on his part causing a second delver to not flip and then be able to swing for lethal. I was able to GSZ up a Thragtusk to stabilize long enough to Scapeshift.

Big Zoo
1-2

Played against an interesting Zoo build with Nacatl, KotR, Gaddock Teeg, and Noble Hierarch. I can't remember Game 1 very clearly, but I was able to pernicious deed away his board presence, and eventually win it. In the second game, I kept an iffy hand, and had my Veteran Explorer plowed on turn 1, preventing me from getting the black source I needed to play the two Deeds I had one in had. In Game 3, I ended up in situation where he had a huge Scooze on board and a Gaddock Teeg. I had a Veteran Explorer in hand, as well as a Diabolic Intent, but could not play them and have enough mana to tutor a Pernicious Deed and crack it to kill the two attackers. Ended up fetching a huntmasters, which got bolted and plowed. Top decked a Burning Wish which would have allowed me to Scapeshift for lethal if not for Gaddock Teeg. :(

Oops, All Spells
2-0

First game, he wasn't able to go off on Turn 1, and I managed to land a Veteran Explorer and a Cabal Therapy, followed by a Scavenging Ooze. He went for it anyways with the Scooze active, but had no way to win if I exiled his Dread Return target. Game 2 he made 10 Goblins on turn 1, but I was able to stabilize thanks to ramping chump blockers and a Thragtusk.

Jund
1-1-1

Game 1 was unbelievably grindy, with me eventually conceding when I literally had no threats left to GSZ, and both of my Valakuts were wastelanded. Didn't finish our second game due to time constraints.

BW Tokens/Stoneblade
1-0

This matchup was probably the longest single game I've played, and the biggest comeback. He landed and equipped a Stoneforge Mystic with a Jitte, and started beating down pretty quickly, eventually tutoring up a Batterskull as well. , but still kept taking damage. I eventually was forced to Scapeshift to prevent myself from dying, but he had gained life up to about 34 or so off Batterskull and Jitte, using 3 of the triggers to kill off the Germ and tapped Mother of Runes. I eventually managed to eliminate his Batterskull with a wish'ed Maelstrom Pulse when he didn't have enough mana to return it to his hand. This left me at 2 life. I managed to find answers to each major thing he did, with Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge big players, thanks to Diving Top, and a deck with literally no land left in it. From there I managed to land both a Thragtusk and a Primeval Titan and was able to beat him down just as time was called in the round.

Overall, Slaughter Games in the main deck felt awesome, being able to strip key cards from the opponent's deck was great. Biggest things to consider for the next time was play-testing more so that I didn't have issues running out of time during matches. The change I'd probably make to the sideboard would be to remove one of the Thoughtseizes in favor of a Life from the Loam, to retrieve mountains and/or Valakuts in a grindy matchup.

[pfiremc13]

Have you had an opportunity to test it yet?

No.


Only playing 9 green sources doesn't seem acceptable when you are trying to cast veteran explorer and kitchen finks.

Correct, I should probably have more fetches.


If you are to play Standstill, the factories are obviously important, but I think that the Phyrexian tower and at least the 4th Island should be green sources.

I agree, but I think 4 sac outlets is not really enough. I think I'll cut an explorer for a deathrite in order to allow these changes. Also, cutting a factory might be an option.


The deck should probably play Brainstorm, and some more fetches to support it better. At least in BUG Pod I am always delighted to see it.

Yeah the problem was having enough fetches

Also I should probably cut 2 lands if I'm adding in BS since it's basically worth half a land. Maybe a basic and a factory?


Do you think that you have enough creatures for Pod? I play a few more, and having too few is sometimes an issue. Deck space quickly becomes an issue, and it seems diffucult to play Pod, Standstill and Planeswalkers if you were to add Brainstorm. 2 main deck Notion Thief seems a bit weak to me, all though I admit that he is sweet with Standstill.

Maybe I don't have enough creatures

BS should help with that though. The 2nd notion thief is a possible cut, though I am worried about combo. I do have archmage though...


To me, the most important issue seems to be the mana base.

I agree.

I don't think grave titan is completely necessary in here, so I'll go
-1 explorer +1 deathrite
-1 factory -1 titan -1 notion thief -1 swamp +4 brainstorm
-1 island -1 tower +1 rainforest +1 catacombs

[Star|Scream]

Surgical Extraction is a necessity against any kind of dredge, though it takes some tricks to work around Street Wraith shenanigans (i.e. targeting something in their yard with Ooze or DRS, then Extracting it in response to shenanigans).

Also, when you're naming something with Therapy, name Bridges before flashback then LED after flashback to get rid of Bridges and LEDs.

May I ask why you would name Bridge from Below with Therapy?

[kingtk3]

Maybe he's assuming to have surgical extraction in hand when playing therapy

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Star|Scream]

Maybe he's assuming to have surgical extraction in hand when playing therapy

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

Still, wouldn't you pick an enabler like breakthrough or something else over bridge? Eventually they'll get one in the yard and you can just extract it at that point.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

May I ask why you would name Bridge from Below with Therapy?

You name Bridge before the flashback then LED after the flashback to exile the bridges from the yard.

There is probably a better of sequencing of plays but my point is you do not name a dredge or ichord target

[Star|Scream]

You name Bridge before the flashback then LED after the flashback to exile the bridges from the yard.

There is probably a better of sequencing of plays but my point is you do not name a dredge or ichord target

I'm still not following why you would ever want to intentionally place a bridge in their graveyard?

EDIT:

Ok Now I see what you're saying. Because you'd exile it with the vet as part of flashback.

[Ralf]

Hello everyone,

So, finally I got to play with my heavy planeswalker (Vraska Fit) list and reached 4th on a 6 swiss rounds tournament (30+ players) without top 8.
Here is a quick report and my list:

Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artefact
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed

Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate

Round 1 Draw 1-1 against High Tide

Game 1, I sac'ed an explorer early game and ended up giving him too many island so he could go off turn 3...
Game 2, extirpate on tide & time spiral got me there.
Game 3, I had the game under control but we went to time :-(

Round 2 Lost 1-2 against Show & Tell

Game 1, I had to mull to 5 and the game was pretty over after a turn 2 S&T into Emrakul
Game 2, He mulled to 6 and I ripped his S&T and flashback it for sneak attack. a Jace and a Vraska came down to seal the deal.
Game 3, I was screwed by a blood moon by turn 2 which prevented me from playing my negate to counter his S&T on turn 3. Like a champion I drew into Liliana but got forced :-(

Round 3 Win 2-1 against BUG control

Game 1, My Jace came after a pernicious deed and was enough to seal the deal.
Game 2, Got mana screwed and lost pretty quickly to double goyfs...
Game 3, I taught my opponent that Vraska > Jace :D

Round 4 Win 2-0 against Junk (no Kotr just lingering souls)

Game 1, Jace and Liliana sealed the deal after a pernicious
Game 2, Same as above

Round 5 Win 2-0 against Miracle (legend version)

Game 1, double pernicious on board with an unanswered Jace got me there
Game 2, Very long game where Liliana got countered and I was toying with vraska and ashiok and my opponent with Clique and Venser (with karakas). Finally I got rid of Clique thanks to Abrupt decay and he managed to kill Vraska, but Ashiok got me there. Eventually, my opponent scooped with 3 cards left in his library...

Round 6 Win 2-1 against Pikula splash red (for blood moon and bolt MD)

Game 1, I kept a very slow hand with liliana, Jace, Vraska and got stomped.
Game 2, Liliana and Jace got me there
Game 3, he scooped to a resolved Ashiok facing an empty board (which will be followed up with a Jace by next turn)

To sum up, the list was a pure blast to play. Vraska is a monster in terms of stalling games where Liliana/Jace would fail. I killed twice with Vraska's ulti. Ashiok was interesting all day long and could be considered as the 4th Liliana. I like his +2 and the fact that it could kill where Lili just cannot.
I think the SB has to be improved by a lot. I used it only twice during this tournament (Game 1 & 2) and kept the same 60 for the rest of the tournament.
It crushed fair.decks so hard and struggled so hard against combo.deck.

I'll welcome any advice/questions.

Thanks for reading.

Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm still not following why you would ever want to intentionally place a bridge in their graveyard?

EDIT:

Ok Now I see what you're saying. Because you'd exile it with the vet as part of flashback.

Yeah. Like I said there's probably a better sequencing of plays, and or at the very least varying ones for various situations. But it's tricks like these that can slow dredge down to a crawl (or at least manaless dredge: my experience with mana'd dredge is admittedly rather limited).

[Megadeus]

Deck looks sick. How is ashiok? Seems pretty solid in a format with so many efficient creatures

[UseLess]

What do people think of a Krosan Grip in the SB as an answer to Batterskull? The mana shouldn't be the problem and it is an uncounterable, permanent way of dealing with it.

[Ralf]

Deck looks sick. How is ashiok? Seems pretty solid in a format with so many efficient creatures

As a one-of, I would not say that he is THAT impacting.
However, I was always happy to draw/brainstorm/sensei into it.

He is Liliana n°4. His +2 usually means that he could tank better than Liliana while I draw/dig into more answers.
I guess he is just cute. But I did some nasty things with discard followed by ashiok to screw opponent's brainstorm to hide his key cards :D

I stole some creatures with it (goyf, true name, mongoose) and got to ultimate once with him.

He shines against control and blue.deck (like liliana). But unlike Liliana, he can kill. And my miracle opponent learnt it the hard way.
For example, against karakas+venser, my opponent could not kill him while I was slowly ripping of his library.

At last, I guess Ashiok is just my "fun" toy. You can easily replace him with something else.

[pfiremc13]

What do people think of a Krosan Grip in the SB as an answer to Batterskull? The mana shouldn't be the problem and it is an uncounterable, permanent way of dealing with it.

Meh

I think it's too narrow.

If you're really having trouble beating it, run an extra threat. It would take up less sideboard space since it could be gsz'ed for.

[Megadeus]

What do people think of a Krosan Grip in the SB as an answer to Batterskull? The mana shouldn't be the problem and it is an uncounterable, permanent way of dealing with it.

In BUG Fit, I will probably end up running 2 KGrip. Not only because of BSkull though, just in general because my meta is like Blade variants, Tribal, and Stompy decks.

[Nithkar]

With punishing version, I didn't had much problem dealing with it. Between Liliana and maelstrom pulse, supported by PF, you can easily render Batterskull useless by sacrificing the token. Then, when they land it, you pulse it. I've played a tournament recently on which both my matches against it I was able to deal fairly easy with it.

Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk

[civet five]

Hello everyone,

So, finally I got to play with my heavy planeswalker (Vraska Fit) list and reached 4th on a 6 swiss rounds tournament (30+ players) without top 8.
Here is a quick report and my list:

Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artefact
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed

Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate

Round 1 Draw 1-1 against High Tide

Game 1, I sac'ed an explorer early game and ended up giving him too many island so he could go off turn 3...
Game 2, extirpate on tide & time spiral got me there.
Game 3, I had the game under control but we went to time :-(

Round 2 Lost 1-2 against Show & Tell

Game 1, I had to mull to 5 and the game was pretty over after a turn 2 S&T into Emrakul
Game 2, He mulled to 6 and I ripped his S&T and flashback it for sneak attack. a Jace and a Vraska came down to seal the deal.
Game 3, I was screwed by a blood moon by turn 2 which prevented me from playing my negate to counter his S&T on turn 3. Like a champion I drew into Liliana but got forced :-(

Round 3 Win 2-1 against BUG control

Game 1, My Jace came after a pernicious deed and was enough to seal the deal.
Game 2, Got mana screwed and lost pretty quickly to double goyfs...
Game 3, I taught my opponent that Vraska > Jace :D

Round 4 Win 2-0 against Junk (no Kotr just lingering souls)

Game 1, Jace and Liliana sealed the deal after a pernicious
Game 2, Same as above

Round 5 Win 2-0 against Miracle (legend version)

Game 1, double pernicious on board with an unanswered Jace got me there
Game 2, Very long game where Liliana got countered and I was toying with vraska and ashiok and my opponent with Clique and Venser (with karakas). Finally I got rid of Clique thanks to Abrupt decay and he managed to kill Vraska, but Ashiok got me there. Eventually, my opponent scooped with 3 cards left in his library...

Round 6 Win 2-1 against Pikula splash red (for blood moon and bolt MD)

Game 1, I kept a very slow hand with liliana, Jace, Vraska and got stomped.
Game 2, Liliana and Jace got me there
Game 3, he scooped to a resolved Ashiok facing an empty board (which will be followed up with a Jace by next turn)

To sum up, the list was a pure blast to play. Vraska is a monster in terms of stalling games where Liliana/Jace would fail. I killed twice with Vraska's ulti. Ashiok was interesting all day long and could be considered as the 4th Liliana. I like his +2 and the fact that it could kill where Lili just cannot.
I think the SB has to be improved by a lot. I used it only twice during this tournament (Game 1 & 2) and kept the same 60 for the rest of the tournament.
It crushed fair.decks so hard and struggled so hard against combo.deck.

I'll welcome any advice/questions.

Thanks for reading.

Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !

Ralf, I really like the idea of running a heavy-PW list. I've recently started running BUG Pod and I like this as well, though a few things stand out at me:
1) Only 9 creatures+1 GSZ, but only 7 of them can be targeted by GSZ. Is the Volrath's Stronghold necessary?
2) With only 7 of 9 creatures easily killed, including 4 you intentionally suicide, can you reliably protect the planeswalkers from getting killed?
3) I really like the BUG Control lists like what Carsten Kotter was writing about on SCG these past 2 weeks. Is there an opportunity to run a hybrid list, cutting the 3 1-of creatures+GSZ, upping the Strix to 4 (so that you can get value out of Therapies by having 8 targets) and running an extra Decay, Deed and an EE?
4) How do you deal with Batterskull?

[jbone2016]

As a one-of, I would not say that he is THAT impacting.
However, I was always happy to draw/brainstorm/sensei into it.

He is Liliana n°4. His +2 usually means that he could tank better than Liliana while I draw/dig into more answers.
I guess he is just cute. But I did some nasty things with discard followed by ashiok to screw opponent's brainstorm to hide his key cards :D

I stole some creatures with it (goyf, true name, mongoose) and got to ultimate once with him.

He shines against control and blue.deck (like liliana). But unlike Liliana, he can kill. And my miracle opponent learnt it the hard way.
For example, against karakas+venser, my opponent could not kill him while I was slowly ripping of his library.

At last, I guess Ashiok is just my "fun" toy. You can easily replace him with something else.

WTB doubling Season.

[Megadeus]

God. 5 mana do nothing enchantment seems TERRIBLE. To be honest that does not seem good at all.

I really like Vraska though in a slower meta. Seems pretty solid. Just comes down and eats a problem Permanent, then ticks up and trades with any of your opponents men, and if they dont kill her off you either get to win by assassin, or eat more permanents? Seems super grindy, but powerful.

[pfiremc13]

Doubling season is ok if you run rector.

You'd need to have the right 'walkers too. Specifically garruks and sorin.

[Ralf]

Ralf, I really like the idea of running a heavy-PW list. I've recently started running BUG Pod and I like this as well, though a few things stand out at me:
1) Only 9 creatures+1 GSZ, but only 7 of them can be targeted by GSZ. Is the Volrath's Stronghold necessary?
2) With only 7 of 9 creatures easily killed, including 4 you intentionally suicide, can you reliably protect the planeswalkers from getting killed?
3) I really like the BUG Control lists like what Carsten Kotter was writing about on SCG these past 2 weeks. Is there an opportunity to run a hybrid list, cutting the 3 1-of creatures+GSZ, upping the Strix to 4 (so that you can get value out of Therapies by having 8 targets) and running an extra Decay, Deed and an EE?
4) How do you deal with Batterskull?



1) Volrath is for grindy games where being able to replay a thragtusk or a witness/baleful matters. And yes, those situations happens.

2) Well try this list ! PW are pure Card/Tempo advantage. Between few 2 for 1 blockers (baleful, thrag, witness) and pernicious it is really easy to protect them. Sometimes you will lose some of them but all in all they usually trade 2 for 1. Not to mention that they can protect each other. For example, you -1 Jace while building up Lili and vice versa.

3) You can definitely tweak the deck, but Thragtusk & witness & Ooze are good alternative kills. Futhermore, in some MU you will need the life gain ability (trust me). You are the control deck.
Witness is Pernicious n*4 or whatever.

Baleful is nice against aggro but poor against combo.

Thragtusk is a 4 turn clock after deeding the board.

Ooze will take care of annoyance such as PF or grave based strategy.


At last you can reuse the ETB triggers with Jace. I did it a non 0 amount of times. Having access to infinite deed / or life gain is nothing to scorn at. And remember that Thrag leaves a token behind each time it leaves the battlefield.

We are a bug control but a Nicfit bug control :-)

And yes 1-of, I used to play with a 2nd zenith over the 4th brainstorm but after side brainstorm > zenith...

4) Batterskull is a joke. Between Jace, Liliana, Vraska you will end up eating the skull alive. If not you will discard/negate it.
Bounce, make your opponent sacrifice the token, try to -3 it with Vraska and make your opponent discard it to Liliana.

At the very last, if you are not convinced, I can tell you that you dig really fast with this deck. And when it comes to attrition war, you are just a better deck. Why ? Vraska kills opponent's Jace/PW.

[Megadeus]

I'm glad someone else is playing a BUG fit deck without Force of Will. Obviously I'm on pod and you are on BUG fit walkers, but I just don't feel that force is completely necessary

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm glad someone else is playing a BUG fit deck without Force of Will. Obviously I'm on pod and you are on BUG fit walkers, but I just don't feel that force is completely necessary

I actually dropped Forces myself: it's one thing to run them in a blue heavy deck, but to run them in something like Nic Fit pretty much makes your deckbuilding and sideboarding strategies rather limited and suboptimal just to make Forces reliable.

[Megadeus]

I actually dropped Forces myself: it's one thing to run them in a blue heavy deck, but to run them in something like Nic Fit pretty much makes your deckbuilding and sideboarding strategies rather limited and suboptimal just to make Forces reliable.

Agreed. I found thattout last week. Didn't face combo at all, then only ended up boarding in either my third deed, or when I played shardless my notion thief

[Nithkar]

So, i attended to a 40 people Legacy tournament to a pitiful 2-4 result. I played HoneyT's Punishing list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)/page287) with just a few substitutions for cards i do not have and one alteration in the sideboard:

-2 Bayou/+2 Overgrown
-1 Badlands/+1 Blood Crypt
-1 Wooded Foothills/ +1 Mountain
-1 Bloodstained Mire/ +1 Mountain

-1 Surgical Extraction/ +1 Abrupt Decay

This will be my first report, so please feel free ask and point out things I forget to bring in. Also, I am a inexperienced legacy player, so i ask that you point out whatever misplays you see. I only did notes on the first two rounds, so these will be more detailed.


Round 1 vs. Burn: 0-2 (List light on creatures - Guide and Hellspark only)

Game 01: Had no idea of what he was playing. Kept GSZ, Therapy, Top, Witness, Deed, Fetch and Grove. I go Fetch -> Swamp -> Top. He suspend Rift Bolt. I then therapy for Lightning Bolt, missing. He then goes another Rift and Lava Spike, leaving me at 10. I Zenith Vet and flashback for the two Searing Blazes i saw with the Therapy, and actually hit 3 of them, so he only have a flame rift on his hand. He draws and passes. I land a Huntmaster, going to 12 life. He goes flame rift, so I'm at 8. I fetch-top trying to find a tusk or the other Huntmaster, but fail and wrongly fetch a Taiga. On his turn, he prices me for 8 and I die.

This game i completely forgot about price, and that was a huge mistake, but i actually think that it would not have matter. I was at 7 life at that point, and without the taiga and considering that I would then be able activate my fetch that was in play to get a basic, price would leave me at 2 life. Had I anticipated Price, i could have been able to sandbag one of my nonbasic and still play the Huntmaster. But that would leave me at 4 life, and if I'm not mistaken he had a fireblast or some other burn + Barbarian Ring, so i would have died anyway.

Sideboarding: -1 Titan, -1 Pulse/ +2 Surgicals.

Game 02: I mull to 4 after diposing: an one lander 7; a good 6 card hand but without green source; and an irrelevent 5 card hand, keeping perhaps an unkeepable 3 nonbasics and a liliana. Of all those hands, i would be probably better with the 6 card but no green source... Liliana is not fast enough, and i just die to his card advantage.

0-1


Round 2 vs. Sneak and Tell: 0-2

Game 01: I win the roll, but have no idea what he's playing. After i play my first turn he lands an island and pass. Fearing Brainstorm an unable to decide on which combo he was, i make the mistake of letting he play his 2nd (he BS on EOT) and 3rd turn without trying to go for discard. He Shows a Grisell while i show a huntmaster. After buying cards with grisel and a series of activations of Ancient Tomb, he goes to something like 4. He then sneaks zodiac dragon hitting me for 15, going up to 11 or so. The point here is that, due to my noobish self and to him playing too fast the ability of zodiac Dragon (putting it directly on his hand), I miss the play that my ooze could have removed his dragon with its effect on the stack. He was open for an attack, so if he hadn't sneaked the dragon and blocked my 3/3 Ooze, i would have hitted him for 9 with it, Huntmaster and 2 wolf tokens. Ozze being blocked, i leaved him with 5 life. The thing was that i had two PF on my hand. He claimed that he had counter, but had my ooze hit, just one of the two PFs I had in hand would be able to kill him, as he was also tapped out on mana.

Sideboarding: +3 Carpets, +3 REBs, +2 TSs, +2 Golgari Charms, +2 Slaughter Games, +2 Surgicals
-1 Titan, -1 Tusk, -1 huntmaster, -1 thrun, -4 PFs, -2 Decays, -1 G,PH, -1 Deed, -1 Wolf Run, -1 and 2 other things i don't remember (maybe another deed and a witness)

Game 02: I keep a Therapy, Carpet, Tusk, Lands hand hoping to find a cheaper body to flashback Therapy or some more interaction. I blind therapy SnT hitting one, seeing 2 emrakuls, BS, and a sneak attack. On my 3rd turn I'm able to land Tusk thanks to carpet, but can't flashback Therapy due the BS. He uses it on EOT, finding just the acceleration he needed to Sneak a Emrakul turn 3. GG.

0-2


Round 3 vs. Merfolk: 2-0

Game 01: He states that he's an inexperienced legacy player, and that becomes clear very quickly. I didn't knew what he was playing, and kept a very good fair hand with deed. He goes island pass, but on his second turn he plays the drawing merfolk. He then vomits his hand on the BF, until i play a Deed on the fourth turn to avoid Daze, as he was already tapped out of lands. He was applying pressure, and I'd already taken some damage. i had a Vet in play that he kept tapping with Reejerey, but he went out of merfolk spells. Then to land a direct attack, he misplays dismembered the Vet, giving me mana to deed His board away before the attack. He asked to redo his play, but he already had dragged his lands out of his library. I almost let him, but as himself admitted, he weren't going to be able to recover from deed, as i would just land big Garruk after deeding away his board.

Sidebording: +3 REBs, +1 Decay/ -1 Titan, -1 Vet, -1 Lily , -1 Garruk i think. I thought of bringing charms in for eventually dealing with TNN, but figured that they would have to be too precisely timed to work on TNN, as a mere lord already puts it out of charm range.

Game 02: PF engine goes on with 2 Groves and just takes the game. He had one moment that he could have activated Relic of Progenitus and sacrificed it on the same turn to get rid of PF. But then a 3rd grove came, and he never saw a Wasteland. Also, if he had used his Vial with a little more perspicacity, he could have saved a couple of his merfolk. But he wasn't able to assemble the same pressure of the first game (just two lords and one that would had to be sandbagged, against the three early ones of the 1st game). Then, what i believe it was Huntmaster beat him to death.

1-2


Round 4 vs. URW Delver: 1-2

Game 01: This game goes really grindy. I kept a 2 liliana hand. He starts off with Delver -> Brainstorm on Upkeep (Btw, it was the same in each of the three games...). But my deck responded really well to every thing that he landed on the battlefield. PFs eats delvers, he lands SFM, reaching for Baterskull. Another SFM joins the battlefield, grabbing sword, but therapy deals with it. It came too late to prevent batterskull form entering the battlefield, though. Meanwhile PF keeps his man dead. Double PF kills the germ token. A TNN joins the party, but is sacrificed buy double Lily (one for SFM, one for TNN). He lands a wasteland and reach 5 lands for bouncy bouncy plan. I fear for my grove, but knew that he would use it for mana into Skull. I then sandbag my pulse in hand, not activating lilys first ability (she was with 1 counter). He then delivers the bounce, tapping out of mana. I draw a land, activate lily to leave him with one card in hand and prevent FOW, and then Pulse the damn thing. In the next turns, big garruk joins the party and he scoops. This game left us with little more then 10 minutes on the clock.

Sidebording: +3 REBs, +1 Decay, +2 Golgari Charms
-1 Titan, -1 Garruk, - 4 oher things (maybe a vet, a therapy, a witness and tusk or thrun)

Game 02: I keep an amazing hand (or so i thought), with PF, Double Groove, REB and deed, plus two other nonland cards (maybe a decay and a witness or GSZ). But i had no black source. I keep it nevertheless, hoping to find one. But i never draw another land, get wastelanded on his second turn and die really quick to triple delver with just on land on the field. Losing this game was a bummer, because i knew that i would not have the time to win on game 3. Maybe he could, but definitely not me.

Game 03: I don't have much memory of this game, but, like i said, he again starts with delver Brainstorm. I'd already decided to concede to him had we reached time and he was ahead, so i didn't paid much attention to the game. What i remember was drawing a Golgari Charm after delver transformed, which made me think that it was a mistake to go for it in this MU. The games goes around a little, but my answers come with some delay, and, in the end, i died on the last 5 turns.

1-3


Round 5 vs. Deathblade: 2-0

Game 01: I knew he was on Deathblade, so i sandbaged my therapies for his Equipments. And on this first game I was able to put each equipment of his deck on his graveyard before they did anything relevant. He dropped a jitte in t2, which was decayed. Then when 2 SFMs landed and searched for sword and Batterskull, both of which I was able to discard. Without TNN ever seeing play this game, i won pretty easily after this.

Sideboarding: +3 REBs, +1 Decay i think. I believe that i didn't brought in carpets nor Slaughter games, cause he didn't run any basics and i'd seen no Jace on game one.
Don't remember what i sided out.

Game 02: Goes pretty much the same as game 01, except that he did landed a TNN. Lily quickly took care of it, though. I think this MU is favorable, isn't it? I mean, at least much more then esperblade. For what i saw from the list after the match was over, it drops a lot of multiples of the cards that are really troublesome to nicfit on the stoneblade MU (Jace, StP, even counters), to add mostly irrelevant DRS. Also, they run no basics, which means one sided explores.

2-3

Round 6 vs. Storm (wishless PiF tutor version): 0-2

Game 01: I knew he was on Storm, but my opening hand was really decent, to say the least: Therapy, Liliana and a GSZ for therapy flashback. Unfortunally, he won the roll. He goes probe -> Therapy to lily. I guess that he was afraid of arbor. I then blind therapy for infernal tutor. The reason for the tutor was that i knew he was on some kind of different storm list, and i was only sure that it ran infernal tutor. I hit one, but see Grim Tutor, LED, Petal, Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual. I pass and he goes off. There was no hit from Therapy that would have stopped him from going off.

Sideboarding: +3 Carpets, +3 REBs, +2 TSs, +2 Slaughter Games, +2 Surgicals
-1 Titan, -1 Tusk, -1 huntmaster, -1 thrun, -4 PFs, -2 Decays, -1 G,PH, -1 Deed, -1 Wolf Run, -1 and 2 other things i don't remember (maybe another deed and a witness)

Game 02: I mul to 4 searching for interaction, only seeing a REB on previous hands. I keep a no lander Surgical, REB, Therapy, Lily. I don't draw any land and die on his 3rd turn.

2-4

-------------

Well that's about it. I ask you to point out whatever different approach that you would have adopted so that i can learn and improve my own game. Also, here is the breakdown of my metagame, so card choices' suggestions are also welcome. Thanks.

5 Death And Taxes
4 Burn
3 Merfolk
3 Reanimator
3 Jund
2 UWR Delver
2 RUG Delver
2 Esper Stoneblade
2 UW Miracles
2 Nic Fit
2 Sneak and Show
2 DeathBlade
1 Junk
1 Maverick
1 Storm
1 UR Delver
1 High Tide
1 BG
1 Enchantress
1 Goblins
1 Rogue (RG Ramp)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Nithkar: Your best bet against Burn is to treat it as a combo deck: that is, drop Deeds, Pulses, Decays and any other removal that you think wouldn't work well, and throw in extraction and/or discard effects like Surgical Extraction and Thoughtseize/Duress.

[Nithkar]

@ Nithkar: Your best bet against Burn is to treat it as a combo deck: that is, drop Deeds, Pulses, Decays and any other removal that you think wouldn't work well, and throw in extraction and/or discard effects like Surgical Extraction and Thoughtseize/Duress.

I was really in doubt about bringing in the Thoughtseizes. In my mind it would not be worth it because of the life loss. But now, with your comment, i guess that even 1 life saved is worth more then nothing, and can actually mean the game. My restraint with dropping removals is that is really useful to get rid of Burn's creatures, as Punishing list is lighter on chump blockers. But i'll definitely make room for TSs next time. Thank you.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I was really in doubt about bringing in the Thoughtseizes. In my mind it would not be worth it because of the life loss. But now, with your comment, i guess that even 1 life saved is worth more then nothing, and can actually mean the game. My restraint with dropping removals is that is really useful to get rid of Burn's creatures, as Punishing list is lighter on chump blockers. But i'll definitely make room for TSs next time. Thank you.

Duress is better against Burn, but I find Thoughtseize more useful overall (particularly against Elves!).

As far as removal goes, keep only cheap instant removal against burn: Decays and P.Fires should be your go-to answers against hasty creatures.

[Megadeus]

I would personally keep in decay for sulfuric vertex. I'm sure they bring it in. Especially if they see a finks tusk or huntmaster

Also thought seize is much better. Not vs burn, but elves like you said, and against SnT as well.

[Nithkar]

The burn i played with didn't even sided on our match. But I would say that, from the version of main deck he played, he probably didn't run vortex. Maybe some skullcracks.

Enviado de meu Nexus 4 usando Tapatalk

[civet five]

1) Volrath is for grindy games where being able to replay a thragtusk or a witness/baleful matters. And yes, those situations happens.

2) Well try this list ! PW are pure Card/Tempo advantage. Between few 2 for 1 blockers (baleful, thrag, witness) and pernicious it is really easy to protect them. Sometimes you will lose some of them but all in all they usually trade 2 for 1. Not to mention that they can protect each other. For example, you -1 Jace while building up Lili and vice versa.

3) You can definitely tweak the deck, but Thragtusk & witness & Ooze are good alternative kills. Futhermore, in some MU you will need the life gain ability (trust me). You are the control deck.
Witness is Pernicious n*4 or whatever.

Baleful is nice against aggro but poor against combo.

Thragtusk is a 4 turn clock after deeding the board.

Ooze will take care of annoyance such as PF or grave based strategy.


At last you can reuse the ETB triggers with Jace. I did it a non 0 amount of times. Having access to infinite deed / or life gain is nothing to scorn at. And remember that Thrag leaves a token behind each time it leaves the battlefield.

We are a bug control but a Nicfit bug control :-)

And yes 1-of, I used to play with a 2nd zenith over the 4th brainstorm but after side brainstorm > zenith...

4) Batterskull is a joke. Between Jace, Liliana, Vraska you will end up eating the skull alive. If not you will discard/negate it.
Bounce, make your opponent sacrifice the token, try to -3 it with Vraska and make your opponent discard it to Liliana.

At the very last, if you are not convinced, I can tell you that you dig really fast with this deck. And when it comes to attrition war, you are just a better deck. Why ? Vraska kills opponent's Jace/PW.

Ok Ralf, hat's off to you for a sweet design. I got to play a bunch today, both goldfishing and testing with a friend. We played a few pre-board matchups with both BUG Pod (the Gleicher list more or less) and your BUG PW Fit, and played it against Goblins, DnT and MUD. My general observations were:

1) This deck feels like it topdecks worse than Pod versions - too many bad topdecks when hellbent (deed, decay, negate all felt bad + the usual VE and CT). Pod lists have the nod here since they run more creatures, so more threats in a hellbent vs. hellbent situation.

2) The PW heavy deck means sometimes my early hands get clogged, and I need to Brainstorm away a PW just to get some early gas (VE+CT, Decay, Deed, etc). But then shuffling them away often led to durdling and topdeck wars, and the PW-heavy deck means that you can often get in bad situations (Jund topdecks a BBE and all of a sudden your Jace is dead and you're way behind). Jace takes a while to actually kill. I also found myself wanting more Ashioks, because sometimes his ability is just stupidly good --> it just gives the middle finger to Brainstorm, Ponder and SDT.

3) When the deck is clicking, it was blast to play. Like you said, the 'walkers protect each other well. I think BUG Pod has a better combo matchup in its current form (Riptide Pilferer is great, and maybe this deck needs it too).

4) I want to play around with the 'walker count and configuration. When you're trying to put the game away, you really want that Vraska, or even Ashiok, because Jace is too slow and Liliana doesn't reliably kill. There's little more satisfying than Ashiok'ing someones TNN, and using that abomination to beat them up. Just in general, most decks are running value creatures that are the most efficient, so you don't even have to suicide Ashiok most of the time to get good impact. Also I get to make custom Assassin's Creed tokens for Vraska.

I'll post back my results after I mess around with the configurations. Changes I'm testing initially:
-1 VE
-1 Negate
-2 Strix
+2 DRS
+1 Ashiok
+1 GSZ

I also want to fit in an Engineered Explosives - might just run it as the 61st card right now. Its a turn faster than Deed but can't kill Jace. So a 3/1 split of Deed and EE seems like a good test.

[Ralf]

Ok Ralf, hat's off to you for a sweet design. I got to play a bunch today, both goldfishing and testing with a friend. We played a few pre-board matchups with both BUG Pod (the Gleicher list more or less) and your BUG PW Fit, and played it against Goblins, DnT and MUD. My general observations were:

1) This deck feels like it topdecks worse than Pod versions - too many bad topdecks when hellbent (deed, decay, negate all felt bad + the usual VE and CT). Pod lists have the nod here since they run more creatures, so more threats in a hellbent vs. hellbent situation.

2) The PW heavy deck means sometimes my early hands get clogged, and I need to Brainstorm away a PW just to get some early gas (VE+CT, Decay, Deed, etc). But then shuffling them away often led to durdling and topdeck wars, and the PW-heavy deck means that you can often get in bad situations (Jund topdecks a BBE and all of a sudden your Jace is dead and you're way behind). Jace takes a while to actually kill. I also found myself wanting more Ashioks, because sometimes his ability is just stupidly good --> it just gives the middle finger to Brainstorm, Ponder and SDT.

3) When the deck is clicking, it was blast to play. Like you said, the 'walkers protect each other well. I think BUG Pod has a better combo matchup in its current form (Riptide Pilferer is great, and maybe this deck needs it too).

4) I want to play around with the 'walker count and configuration. When you're trying to put the game away, you really want that Vraska, or even Ashiok, because Jace is too slow and Liliana doesn't reliably kill. There's little more satisfying than Ashiok'ing someones TNN, and using that abomination to beat them up. Just in general, most decks are running value creatures that are the most efficient, so you don't even have to suicide Ashiok most of the time to get good impact. Also I get to make custom Assassin's Creed tokens for Vraska.

I'll post back my results after I mess around with the configurations. Changes I'm testing initially:
-1 VE
-1 Negate
-2 Strix
+2 DRS
+1 Ashiok
+1 GSZ

I also want to fit in an Engineered Explosives - might just run it as the 61st card right now. Its a turn faster than Deed but can't kill Jace. So a 3/1 split of Deed and EE seems like a good test.

Thanks for your feedbacks.
Actually it is hard to design a deck and the more we test it the better the list will evolve.
I went a different road than you after all, but not by much.

I took out the 4*brainstorm as I often felt what I needed most was to have the right card a the right time.
-4 brainstorm
-2 Baleful strix (I guess we had the same feeling, here I might test coiling oracle one day)
-1 Cabal Therapy (I hate missing on a CT and it happens so many times, it feels like a mulligan...)

+2 DRS (mana fixing, life/death and could be an acceleration for a PW turn 2)
+2 Thoughtseize (I feel like it improves the cabal therapy value so much), 5 discards MD is >50% to have one in your starting hand
+2 Diabolic intent (the true brainstorm replacement)
+1 GSZ (this was in/out, playing with 60 or 61 now it is in with more green target)

I also thought about EE and you might be right as I used to pack 1 maelstrom pulse MD but felt clunky. Another mass sweeper is certainly right.

I'm glad you have a good feeling with ashiok !

I'll keep you posted as I will have in the very near future a lot of training sessions with some friends against the whole DTB/most common established decks.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

What do you think guys about this new planeswalker? As all planeswalkers she can be good in Nic fit.

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/9093/ly04.jpg

[tons of fun]

What do you think guys about this new planeswalker? As all planeswalkers she can be good in Nic fit.

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/9093/ly04.jpg

in love

[Megadeus]

Is that real? I don't think it's very good unfortunately. Dying from a bolt after plus 1 ability is no bueno. Though the explore portion seems sweet.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Is that real? I don't think it's very good unfortunately. Dying from a bolt after plus 1 ability is no bueno. Though the explore portion seems sweet.

Not to mention that if you're already running blue, it's competing with the main man himself: Jace 2.0.

[Megadeus]

I mean in BUG walker fit you are less worried about that since you are running a 5 mana card in vraska, but I just don't think the abilities are amazing. I mean I do like the fact that you can essentially lock a creature down every turn, or ramp up and draw, but it is really bad against TNN and red decks. It will probably be decent in standard, but I don't see it being good in this deck.

[tons of fun]

I mean in BUG walker fit you are less worried about that since you are running a 5 mana card in vraska, but I just don't think the abilities are amazing. I mean I do like the fact that you can essentially lock a creature down every turn, or ramp up and draw, but it is really bad against TNN and red decks. It will probably be decent in standard, but I don't see it being good in this deck.

i have to dis agree there is matches were she is a house like agaisnt bug when they get pit running after u deed everything else a way it a way to shut off man lands as well as valacut triggers lol

[MiracleMan]

Greetings folks,

I hate to move the conversation away from talk over the new planeswalker, but, I was wondering if you folks could answer a couple questions about the deck or at least point me in the right direction.
Recently, I've been re-examining the gifts package in a Nic Fit deck. I'm a big fan of having a proactive strategy that includes piles of silver bullets and a reliance on inevitability.

I've noticed some people say, recently, that the gifts shell isn't a practical plan and doesn't measure up. I'd love it if you could explain that to me.

Also, I'd really like some assistance in addressing the show and tell matchup. Most times I play it, I seem to get obliterated. I've been playing force of wills in an effort to not get killed on t1, but, it doesn't seem to be winnable until I get to the sideboard and I don't want to overboard for the matchups just because my approach is lacking. Any tips?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Greetings folks,

I hate to move the conversation away from talk over the new planeswalker, but, I was wondering if you folks could answer a couple questions about the deck or at least point me in the right direction.
Recently, I've been re-examining the gifts package in a Nic Fit deck. I'm a big fan of having a proactive strategy that includes piles of silver bullets and a reliance on inevitability.

I've noticed some people say, recently, that the gifts shell isn't a practical plan and doesn't measure up. I'd love it if you could explain that to me.

Also, I'd really like some assistance in addressing the show and tell matchup. Most times I play it, I seem to get obliterated. I've been playing force of wills in an effort to not get killed on t1, but, it doesn't seem to be winnable until I get to the sideboard and I don't want to overboard for the matchups just because my approach is lacking. Any tips?

1. Welcome to the Nic Fit thread ^_^
2. Two things come to mind with the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition piles. First, Green Sun's Zenith is ultimately a better for getting silver bullets, not because the ammo it gets is so good, but because it doesn't dick around and puts that silver bullet right into effect. Second, you have to build around the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition, which, when we're already running Veteran Explorer and Green Sun's Zenith in BUG, can limit deck building strategies. Not to mention some of the best uses for Intuition (not so much experience with Gifts) require some very situational cards.
3. What's your blue count like? If you're not sitting at 15-18 with Forces, don't even bother running Forces. Run Thoughtseize instead and throw in a Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Glen Elendra Archmage package in the side instead.
4. Addenum to 3: For your main, focus only on fair decks, and then dedicate 10-12 slots in the sideboard to combo hate (3 slots reserved for Carpet of Flowers, which practically turns certain matchups into byes).

[MiracleMan]

1. Welcome to the Nic Fit thread ^_^
2. Two things come to mind with the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition piles. First, Green Sun's Zenith is ultimately a better for getting silver bullets, not because the ammo it gets is so good, but because it doesn't dick around and puts that silver bullet right into effect. Second, you have to build around the Gifts Ungiven and Intuition, which, when we're already running Veteran Explorer and Green Sun's Zenith in BUG, can limit deck building strategies. Not to mention some of the best uses for Intuition (not so much experience with Gifts) require some very situational cards.
3. What's your blue count like? If you're not sitting at 15-18 with Forces, don't even bother running Forces. Run Thoughtseize instead and throw in a Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Glen Elendra Archmage package in the side instead.
4. Addenum to 3: For your main, focus only on fair decks, and then dedicate 10-12 slots in the sideboard to combo hate (3 slots reserved for Carpet of Flowers, which practically turns certain matchups into byes).

Thanks for the welcome!
After Forces and singleton Notion Thief, I'm up to 16 Blue sources.
The list I'm running looks like this:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Mystic Snake
1x Acidic Slime
1x Thragtusk
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Grave Titan

4x Brainstorm
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Gifts Ungiven

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Jace, the Mindsculptor

1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Forest
3x Swamp
3x Island

I'd be interested in improving the list. I like that the gifts packages gives me a proactive plan and a means of quickly establishing Thragtusk/Nightmare
However, if the veterans here see any issues, I'd love to hear what they have to say.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hmm ... your creature base is begging to be used with Birthing Pod, but the other spells say straight BUG Fit.

Let me mull it over a bit.

[Megadeus]

I love intuition and gifts, but I just think there are better shells for it. Though you could do some sweet piles. Maybe you could run like a volraths stronghold, loam and single wasteland? I have had some trouble with random utility lands.

[tons of fun]

Thanks for the welcome!
After Forces and singleton Notion Thief, I'm up to 16 Blue sources.
The list I'm running looks like this:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Mystic Snake
1x Acidic Slime
1x Thragtusk
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Grave Titan

4x Brainstorm
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Gifts Ungiven

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Jace, the Mindsculptor

1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Forest
3x Swamp
3x Island

I'd be interested in improving the list. I like that the gifts packages gives me a proactive plan and a means of quickly establishing Thragtusk/Nightmare
However, if the veterans here see any issues, I'd love to hear what they have to say.


welcome to the dead eye clan lol but lookin at ur list hows are the fallowing actually running, slime , snap , deamon

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks for the welcome!
After Forces and singleton Notion Thief, I'm up to 16 Blue sources.
The list I'm running looks like this:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
1x Snapcaster Mage <-- Drop to 0: Eternal Witness is better for this deck
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Kitchen Finks <-- Drop to 0: Swagtusk is better
1x Mystic Snake
1x Acidic Slime
1x Thragtusk <-- Up to 2: Better than Finks
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Rune-Scarred Demon <-- Replace with Diabolic Intent: Intent creates some nifty combos with Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan <-- Replace with Primeval Titan: helps to get utility lands online

4x Brainstorm
1x Abrupt Decay <-- Up to 2
2x Gifts Ungiven <-- Replace with Intuition if you keep them in, but I recommend dropping to 0 because no Recurring Nightmare (see below)

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith <-- Up to 4: Really good toolbox card and, in a pinch, can be cast for x=0 to dig
2x Regrowth <-- Drop to 0: unnecessary with Intuition over Gifts
1x Maelstrom Pulse <-- Up to 2

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare <-- Drop to 0: with Deadeye and Stronghold+Tower, you have a crapton of recursion as is

1x Jace, the Mindsculptor <-- Up to 2: such a great card

1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea <-- Replace with Creeping Tar Pit: it's very rare you'll actually need Sea before setting off an explorer and even rarer after. Tar Pit also doubles as a really good Jace 2.0 slayer.
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs <-- Up to 4
3x Misty Rainforest <-- Up to 4
4x Forest <-- Drop to 3
3x Swamp <-- Drop to 2
3x Island

Up to 2 from 0: Sensei's Divining Top: With all the shuffle effects and mana ramp, it isn't out of the question that you'll find a silver bullet just cracking fetchlands, casting Green Sun's Zenith for 0, saccing Veteran Explorer, etc. and spinning Top.

I'd be interested in improving the list. I like that the gifts packages gives me a proactive plan and a means of quickly establishing Thragtusk/Nightmare
However, if the veterans here see any issues, I'd love to hear what they have to say.

Overall, your list looks like its trying to do too much at once without an actual focus. Even the Gifts plan is tricky since you only run 2 Gifts Ungiven and an already pretty robust suite of recursion. I suggest focusing on getting Stronghold+Tower online or Deadeye with Swagtusk to really overpower the competition.

[MiracleMan]

welcome to the dead eye clan lol but lookin at ur list hows are the fallowing actually running, slime , snap , deamon

Snap serves as Gifts 2.5 and sometimes the extra in making sure I get exactly what I want out the pile.
Slime is just a do good, take care of cards (like tarpit) card.
Rune Scarred serves as a threat that can also get unique parts of the combo (often mystic snake)

The deck is operating off of a couple of points:
#1 Thragtusk + Nightmare is insane. Setting that up usually wins you the game
#2 Deed takes care of 90% of the deck's problems, as long as you can search for it and recur it, you don't need much removal
#3 If anyone ever messes with your graveyard, you need a backup plan to still do insane things: Deadeye

I think the list looks a lot like a pile, but, one problem I've always been frustrated with, regarding Nic Fit, is that it can often have a lot of dead draws. I've found that the list doesn't have that problem as often as other lists I've played.

EpicLevelCommander,
In terms of your changes, I like the direction you're going with it and the criticism you're providing makes a lot of sense. However, I think dropping recurring nightmare is a mistake. I think the card is insane, especially with the lack of graveyard hate.

I think just because gifts isn't completely optimized in the nic fit shell, doesn't mean that it can't be incredibly successful.

That said, if I ever go in a straight BUG shell without the gifts package, you're list makes a lot of sense. I love playing top and I've been trying to find room for a 2nd Jace, even though he's at an all-time level of uselessness more often than I'd like.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Snap serves as Gifts 2.5 and sometimes the extra in making sure I get exactly what I want out the pile.
Slime is just a do good, take care of cards (like tarpit) card.
Rune Scarred serves as a threat that can also get unique parts of the combo (often mystic snake)

The deck is operating off of a couple of points:
#1 Thragtusk + Nightmare is insane. Setting that up usually wins you the game
#2 Deed takes care of 90% of the deck's problems, as long as you can search for it and recur it, you don't need much removal
#3 If anyone ever messes with your graveyard, you need a backup plan to still do insane things: Deadeye

I think the list looks a lot like a pile, but, one problem I've always been frustrated with, regarding Nic Fit, is that it can often have a lot of dead draws. I've found that the list doesn't have that problem as often as other lists I've played.

EpicLevelCommander,
In terms of your changes, I like the direction you're going with it and the criticism you're providing makes a lot of sense. However, I think dropping recurring nightmare is a mistake. I think the card is insane, especially with the lack of graveyard hate.

I think just because gifts isn't completely optimized in the nic fit shell, doesn't mean that it can't be incredibly successful.

That said, if I ever go in a straight BUG shell without the gifts package, you're list makes a lot of sense. I love playing top and I've been trying to find room for a 2nd Jace, even though he's at an all-time level of uselessness more often than I'd like.

Fair enough, though I definitely suggest using Intuition over Gifts Ungiven: 3 CMC as opposed to 4, three for one as opposed to four for two, and can fetch triples if needed.

EDIT: Also, thank ya very much for reminding me how awesome Stronghold+Tower can be ^_^

[tons of fun]

Snap serves as Gifts 2.5 and sometimes the extra in making sure I get exactly what I want out the pile.
Slime is just a do good, take care of cards (like tarpit) card.
Rune Scarred serves as a threat that can also get unique parts of the combo (often mystic snake)

The deck is operating off of a couple of points:
#1 Thragtusk + Nightmare is insane. Setting that up usually wins you the game
#2 Deed takes care of 90% of the deck's problems, as long as you can search for it and recur it, you don't need much removal
#3 If anyone ever messes with your graveyard, you need a backup plan to still do insane things: Deadeye

I think the list looks a lot like a pile, but, one problem I've always been frustrated with, regarding Nic Fit, is that it can often have a lot of dead draws. I've found that the list doesn't have that problem as often as other lists I've played.

EpicLevelCommander,
In terms of your changes, I like the direction you're going with it and the criticism you're providing makes a lot of sense. However, I think dropping recurring nightmare is a mistake. I think the card is insane, especially with the lack of graveyard hate.

I think just because gifts isn't completely optimized in the nic fit shell, doesn't mean that it can't be incredibly successful.

That said, if I ever go in a straight BUG shell without the gifts package, you're list makes a lot of sense. I love playing top and I've been trying to find room for a 2nd Jace, even though he's at an all-time level of uselessness more often than I'd like.

well as fair as the slime goes venser can do all that plus more
and i feel the demon is a weak seven drop
come on ur in bug colors gotta think bigger more obnoxious

[pfiremc13]

Well if you're running gifts/intuition intent + ewit + grim harvest is a hilarious, if not overly powerful, combo.

[Tao]

I like this new Kiora Planeswalker. Not as good as Jace but she seems to be a nice support for him in a Planeswalker heavy BUG list. 4 Decays, 3-4 Deeds and a lot of PWs.
She also has some advantages like an easier casting cost and the ability to win the game much faster (which is something that Planeswalker BUG sometimes has problems with).

[Megadeus]

Meh. Don't get me wrong. I love explore. But she just seems underwhelming when she hits the board. I think I'd rather play Gary Wildspeaker.

[civet five]

I just can't see running Kiora in a BUG Walker list. After maxing out Jace and Lili, the next thing I want is Ashiok #2 or 3 and Vraska #3. Ashiok helps you stay ahead when you are, and Vraska helps you pull out of non-swarm situations. Kiora is almost 100% durdle, and basically only decent when paired with other walkers on your board - in a vacuum, Jace, Lili, Ashiok and Vraska are all better, as are various Garruks.

BUG POD:
I've really struggled to beat Merfolk because the combination of 12 lords, Islandwalk and Mutavaults, and VE can be a liability here because it accelerates them too. My only strategy has been to mull into Pernicious Deed, avoid Islands at all costs, and try to grind them out.

I've also found there are some matches that I simply cannot grind out without Recurring Nightmare giving me continuous value from something - usually Thragtusk, or having a second big threat to Pod into. I'm considering adding a 2nd RN, but also am evaluating Frost Titan, Oona and Tradewind Rider. The Rider would require a Qurion Ranger or Scryb Sprite, but would give me an alternative way to grind out games, while both Frost Titan and Oona give me a different way to mess with my opponent.

I'm also really interested in this Junk list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12427&iddeck=91069. I've always like that white offers Sun Titan, Reveillark and Academy Rector, and this seems to take advantage of 2 of these well. Not sure if Recycle and Debtors' Knell are too cute, but the biggest appeal of this list is that it solves my BUG Pod problems above, which is that it has better ways of getting Recurring Nightmare, and has varied threats at the high end to close out games post-Deed wiping. I will admit that I've come to love the disruption that blue offers, with Pilferer and Negate/Envelop/Flusterstorm plus discard very strong, and that Junk lists are going to have poor matchups against Storm and the like (maybe adding a Leyline of the Void and Leyline of Sanctity so its fetchable by Rector? but that probably can't come out fast enough).

[tons of fun]

she is durdle if she has nothin to do but shutin a batterskull or a tar pit down wich barth are nic fits biggest problem cards keeping them on a lock it all part of control

[Megadeus]

IO feel like at that point I'd rather just have Tamiyo though

[plogan]

Debtor's Knell is cute in Rector Fit but not overly useful. Also, Recycle is insane in the grindy matchups and in-fact the easiest way to beat all of the blade variant decks and is decent against shardless IF you have a top to go with it to get out of Hymn problems. The only questionable cards for me in that list are the primeval bounty (as the card seems like overkill with recycle already present, and in my testing didn't do as much), only having 2 tops (as the typical Rector build tends to shuffle its deck at least once if not twice a turn), and having 0 marsh flats. Finally, if you can afford it, moat is a godsend for that particular build.

On a side note, I took my rector build to a local tournament with 16 players and eeked into top 8.

Round 1: Sneak and Show W 2-0

Game 1: He never finds a show and tell or a sneak attack and double explorer ramp puts me into eventually having both kukusho and sun titan in play. Not going to lie this game was pure luck.

Game 2: Another rather lucky spree, despite his insane top deck. On the draw I therapy him naming show and tell and see both sneak and griselbrand. He then casts the sneak on turn 2 and passes. I quickly fetch my lone dryad arbor to flash therapy back and hit the griselbrand only to have him rip emrakul the very next turn. Fortunately he proceeds to brick for about 4 turns not finding another big dude and thalia and ooze beats get him.

Round 2: Merfolk L 0-2

Well my luck ran out in this match from earlier sadly

Game 1: I keep a decent starting hand with deed and rector on the draw and proceed to get punched in the face by various fish and he happens to have the force for the turn 3 deed after landing his true name. He then untaps, phantasmal images his true name and I die readily.

Game 2: Another decent hand this time I deed away his entire board with a thragtusk in play and him being hellbent after this. He then proceeds to rip a true name off the top and slammed it into play. I then play ooze and make him a 9/9 while not finding a single out with top in play the entire time though the last turn I could have done something I punted as I had enough mana to spin top see the third card down on my draw step and then crack a fetch to find another deed, however I don't take the opportunity and the third card down is indeed a deed where I the proceeded to facepalm myself. Had I not misplayed game 3 most certainly would have come about.

Round 3: Deathblade W 2-1

Game 1: I lose the die roll mull to 6 and keep a lose one lander as I'm a bit tilted from the last match. He opens with deathrite to which I proceed to thoughtseize and see jace, true name, stoneforge mystic, and the lands to cast all of them. Needless to say I lost this one.

Game 2: This one goes long with me eventually landing sigarda and beating face with it while memoriciding his stoneforged batterskull, after this it was all downhill for him.

Game 3: My opponent apparently kept a lose hand as he was now on tilt to which my decent hand of carpet and vet with a sac outlet ramped me into t3 huge dudes. This was also aided by the fact that after forcing my t1 carpet I ripped a second one and slammed it into play. I believe he saw at least 3 FoW this game but my threats just got there.

Round 4: Reanimator L 0-2

Game 1: I die to a griselbrand suited up with an animate dead on it. Ooze showed up a turn too late and it was all downhill from there.

Game 2: I keep a decent hand of thoughtseize and ramp and am rewarded by snatching his entomb to his reanimate and exhume hand, However, I eventually stall out on 5 lands and am unable to cast kukusho or anything of relevance at this point and eventually die to another griselbrand. Hedging my board against storm and show and tell has definitely hurt my gy matchups.

Top 8

Shardless Bug L 0-2

Game 1: This is a long slugfest and eventually resulted in my sigarda and moat vs his jace, lili and deathrite. I lost by 1 turn's worth of damage when his jace found a second deathrite and his last card in hand was the FoW for the green sun's I had ripped trying to find thragtusk. All in all, it was a very tight match and I believe slight misplays ended up losing the game for me.

Game 2; I nut draw into turn 2 5 mana and resolve my garruk relentless killing his deathrite. However, He then proceeds to play all 4 of his baleful strix in a row and I eventually deeded them away though most of my resources in my hand became dead. I then memoricde him naming jace and see that he had boarded them out, which was fantastic however, he then dropped a goyf and blind cascaded into a visions with an agent, lots of sick rips this tournament. I then dropped my moat and proceeded to have it charmed away which then put me dead in the water.

Overall the deck felt pretty good though I may move the thalias out for some extripates again, dryad arbor once again pulled his weight for me and, I saw approximately 1 therapy all day which is both unusual and particularly bad.

[tons of fun]

io feel like at that point i'd rather just have tamiyo though

but tamy cant win a game

[Megadeus]

True, but she can draw cards, keep any non walker permanent locked down, and her ultimate will win any grindy game

[tons of fun]

true, but she can draw cards, keep any non walker permanent locked down, and her ultimate will win any grindy game

yes but tami cant stop from things doing damage and as well kiora can draw cards and allow extra land drops plus she wins the game

[civet five]

Debtor's Knell is cute in Rector Fit but not overly useful. Also, Recycle is insane in the grindy matchups and in-fact the easiest way to beat all of the blade variant decks and is decent against shardless IF you have a top to go with it to get out of Hymn problems. The only questionable cards for me in that list are the primeval bounty (as the card seems like overkill with recycle already present, and in my testing didn't do as much), only having 2 tops (as the typical Rector build tends to shuffle its deck at least once if not twice a turn), and having 0 marsh flats. Finally, if you can afford it, moat is a godsend for that particular build.


Do you have a list you can share? I'm definitely interested in exploring Junk Fit.

[Megadeus]

yes but tami cant stop from things doing damage and as well kiora can draw cards and allow extra land drops plus she wins the game

What do you mean doing damage? Like Sulfuric Vortex or a planeswalker? Kiora dies to TNN/Lightning Bolt even after using her +1 ability. I mean that is not to say Tamiyo is amazing or anything, but I feel like her +1 is almost always going to be better, plus she starts at a much higher loyalty level. And comparing planeswalker ultimates is almost always useless. I mean sure, unchecked, Kiora is better at ending the game, but you really can't judge planeswalkers by their ultimate

[tons of fun]

[QUOTE=Megadeus;777822]What do you mean doing damage? Like Sulfuric Vortex or a planeswalker? Kiora dies to TNN/Lightning Bolt even after using her +1 ability. I mean that is not to say Tamiyo is amazing or anything, but I feel like her +1 is almost always going to be better, plus she starts at a much higher loyalty level. And comparing planeswalker ultimates is almost always useless. I mean sure, unchecked, Kiora is better at ending the game, but you really can't judge planeswalkers by their ultimate[

WOOPY SHIT ALMOST EVERY PLANS WALKER GETTS THERE ASS TURNED INSIDE OUT BY BOLTS AND TNN POIN IT SHE HAS ABILITIE TO KEEP THINGS IN CHECK IF U PLAY HER RIGHT AND SHE HAS MORE UTILITY THEN TAMY CUZ I HAVE RAN TAMI AND SHE IS OK AT BEST I DO NOT THINK SHE IS THE END ALL BEAT ALLL BUT SHE HAS TESTING ROOM IN BUGG]

[tons of fun]

what do you mean doing damage? Like sulfuric vortex or a planeswalker? Kiora dies to tnn/lightning bolt even after using her +1 ability. I mean that is not to say tamiyo is amazing or anything, but i feel like her +1 is almost always going to be better, plus she starts at a much higher loyalty level. And comparing planeswalker ultimates is almost always useless. I mean sure, unchecked, kiora is better at ending the game, but you really can't judge planeswalkers by their ultimate



jace give up too a bolt and tnn as well if they turn three tnn ur not gonna turn four jace or any planwalker anyways so the tnn is a mut point to argue with anyways

[Megadeus]

I mean yes, but with Tamiyo/Jace, you can at least +1 them to survive the bolt/attack, then next turn slam a way to protect them. Whereas with Koria (is that even her name?), even if you +1 her she dies. And if you -1 her just to get value out of her, then great, you cast a 4 mana explore. I just don't see her being very good. Like I said, feel free to test her out and prove me wrong. I love Explore. I just don't think she is worth it, and in theory (I havent tested either) I would test Tamiyo before I tested her.

[tons of fun]

i mean yes, but with tamiyo/jace, you can at least +1 them to survive the bolt/attack, then next turn slam a way to protect them. Whereas with koria (is that even her name?), even if you +1 her she dies. And if you -1 her just to get value out of her, then great, you cast a 4 mana explore. I just don't see her being very good. Like i said, feel free to test her out and prove me wrong. I love explore. I just don't think she is worth it, and in theory (i havent tested either) i would test tamiyo before i tested her.


i tested tamiyo especially in my build koria would be the best option but u can slam proctection for jace against tnn any ways
the best u can do is stop a bolt with something so that a very weak back up . Like every torny i play and i have seen mckee play we each have the same cards in fair match up that give our decks problems its tar pits and batter skullls and she can put them on a lock

[Megadeus]

I mean I see what you are saying, but how is Koria better vs Tar Pit and BSkull than Tamiyo? Like you said, Tamiyo was underwhelming, so what do you really expect with Kiora?

[tons of fun]

i mean i see what you are saying, but how is koria better vs tar pit and bskull than tamiyo? Like you said, tamiyo was underwhelming, so what do you really expect with kiora?



koria one is cheaper for starters

plus the ability to hit more then one land drop and draw cards with that still not horrible
realistically ther all at the same level as far as what they do u can use either to shut down creatures koria givein me lands drops and a chance a 9/9 every turn

[Megadeus]

I see what you are saying. My point being though, that if Tamiyo wasn't worth it, then Kiora probably won't be either. I like her abilities, I just think the loyalty is too low unfortunately.

[tons of fun]

i see what you are saying. My point being though, that if tamiyo wasn't worth it, then kiora probably won't be either. I like her abilities, i just think the loyalty is too low unfortunately.

her loyalty dont matter if she wrks then she wrks

[Megadeus]

Unfortunately it does matter... For example, Nissa Revane has an actually solid +1 ability to "create" a 2/3. Unfortunately during that time in standard Lightning Bolt was a very highly played card and she was completely unplayable. Between Bolts and TNN, I'm just not sure if Kiora is worth it. Please. Prove me wrong. I would love to play her knowing she is good. I just don't think that she is any good

[civet five]

Does anyone play with Oracle of Mul Daya? That's the best comparison I can think of, and short of some Turbo Eldrazi lists, no one runs it

[Tao]

Her biggest problem is of course that unlike Jace her carddraw is worse AND that she can't draw a card every turn and that is why Jace will still be the best PW for BUG but she has a couple of things going for her that make me want to play her, too, maybe in a 3/2, 4/1 or 4/2 split with Jace.

- For the comparison with Oracle of Mul Daya: Oracle only has one of the abilities of Kiora, the Draw/Explore part. But it can neither deal with a Batterskull/Delver/Goyf nor can it pump out 9/9 tokens.

- For the vulnerability to Lightning Bolt: it can be a bit annoying but I honestly don't think it is a big deal. Usually I just Brainstorm with Jace against Bolt decks anyway because I am far more worried about losing it to Bolt + surprise damage (Clique/Snapcaster) without getting any value. If I get a Brainstorm and a card from my opponent's hand that is usually all I ask for in this type of matchup. I would imagine Kiora is the same, I will just -1 her against Bolt decks.

- Tamiyo is similar to Kiora but one Mana is a huge difference.

- Kiora gives good protection while +1ing into a very relevant and fast ultimate which seems like a very nice combination.

- Kiora's +1 is also nice with Deed because it might force the opponent to play another threat into Deed.

[tons of fun]

her biggest problem is of course that unlike jace her carddraw is worse and that she can't draw a card every turn and that is why jace will still be the best pw for bug but she has a couple of things going for her that make me want to play her, too, maybe in a 3/2, 4/1 or 4/2 split with jace.

- for the comparison with oracle of mul daya: Oracle only has one of the abilities of kiora, the draw/explore part. But it can neither deal with a batterskull/delver/goyf nor can it pump out 9/9 tokens.

- for the vulnerability to lightning bolt: It can be a bit annoying but i honestly don't think it is a big deal. Usually i just brainstorm with jace against bolt decks anyway because i am far more worried about losing it to bolt + surprise damage (clique/snapcaster) without getting any value. If i get a brainstorm and a card from my opponent's hand that is usually all i ask for in this type of matchup. I would imagine kiora is the same, i will just -1 her against bolt decks.

- tamiyo is similar to kiora but one mana is a huge difference.

- kiora gives good protection while +1ing into a very relevant and fast ultimate which seems like a very nice combination.

- kiora's +1 is also nice with deed because it might force the opponent to play another threat into deed.


praise the lord some one see what i am seeing lol
see my argument sux cuz my typing ability sux lol but thats how i feel about exactly. Lol thank you t for putting way more elegantly then i can.

[tons of fun]

She also has the ability to shut down valacut in the scape vs bug list see we hqve the ability to stop the scape she cqn have the bility to make the grind fest of them have the valacut out and slow burning u to death wich is very frequent

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Her biggest problem is of course that unlike Jace her carddraw is worse AND that she can't draw a card every turn and that is why Jace will still be the best PW for BUG but she has a couple of things going for her that make me want to play her, too, maybe in a 3/2, 4/1 or 4/2 split with Jace.

- For the comparison with Oracle of Mul Daya: Oracle only has one of the abilities of Kiora, the Draw/Explore part. But it can neither deal with a Batterskull/Delver/Goyf nor can it pump out 9/9 tokens.

- For the vulnerability to Lightning Bolt: it can be a bit annoying but I honestly don't think it is a big deal. Usually I just Brainstorm with Jace against Bolt decks anyway because I am far more worried about losing it to Bolt + surprise damage (Clique/Snapcaster) without getting any value. If I get a Brainstorm and a card from my opponent's hand that is usually all I ask for in this type of matchup. I would imagine Kiora is the same, I will just -1 her against Bolt decks.

- Tamiyo is similar to Kiora but one Mana is a huge difference.

- Kiora gives good protection while +1ing into a very relevant and fast ultimate which seems like a very nice combination.

- Kiora's +1 is also nice with Deed because it might force the opponent to play another threat into Deed.

My biggest concern isn't whether she's good or not, but rather the slots she's trying to compete for. Outside of BUG Walker Fit, I have no reason to run her at all over Jace 2.0, let alone something like one of the Garruks or Liliana 2.0.

If she can make the cut, then yes: she has a ton of potential.

[tons of fun]

my biggest concern isn't whether she's good or not, but rather the slots she's trying to compete for. Outside of bug walker fit, i have no reason to run her at all over jace 2.0, let alone something like one of the garruks or liliana 2.0.

If she can make the cut, then yes: She has a ton of potential.

i am runnign in the nic fit list as a 1 or 2 of
to suport my jaces

[tons of fun]

my biggest concern isn't whether she's good or not, but rather the slots she's trying to compete for. Outside of bug walker fit, i have no reason to run her at all over jace 2.0, let alone something like one of the garruks or liliana 2.0.

If she can make the cut, then yes: She has a ton of potential.

i am trying a pw list i would be lookin at 3 jace 2 koria 1 liliana vess 1 garruk primal hunter and 1 karn

[Star|Scream]

i am trying a pw list i would be lookin at 3 jace 2 koria 1 liliana vess 1 garruk primal hunter and 1 karn

Why not just play 3 Jace, 3 Liliana Of The Veil?

Seriously, aside from wanting to play pet planeswalkers, why are any of those choices better than Liliana?

[civet five]

Why not just play 3 Jace, 3 Liliana Of The Veil?

Seriously, aside from wanting to play pet planeswalkers, why are any of those choices better than Liliana?

BUG Walker lists need something besides Lili and Jace, because you need to continually apply pressure and mess with your opponent while building to ultimate, and usually that means a 3rd walker, since Deed becomes bad and you're creature-light. I still think that Vraska and Ashiok are the best options, along with Karn.


ToF - as soon as you mentioned Liliana Vess, you basically confirmed to everyone that you're just looking for more pet walkers. Please explain how a singleton Liliana Vess is better than the firmly established superior options of Jace and Liliana of the Veil?

[tons of fun]

bug walker lists need something besides lili and jace, because you need to continually apply pressure and mess with your opponent while building to ultimate, and usually that means a 3rd walker, since deed becomes bad and you're creature-light. I still think that vraska and ashiok are the best options, along with karn.


Tof - as soon as you mentioned liliana vess, you basically confirmed to everyone that you're just looking for more pet walkers. Please explain how a singleton liliana vess is better than the firmly established superior options of jace and liliana of the veil?

first lili 1.0 allows tutors with jace its not a pet thing cuz if i was gonna do pet walkers i would do some other ones veil is ok but lili is one sided discard and the fact she can tutor shit to the top or ur deck and draw off jace or top is good

[tons of fun]

why not just play 3 jace, 3 liliana of the veil?

Seriously, aside from wanting to play pet planeswalkers, why are any of those choices better than liliana?

garruk prodives crreatures lili provides one sided discard and tutors and koria provides creature control and land drops

[Star|Scream]

garruk prodives crreatures lili provides one sided discard and tutors and koria provides creature control and land drops

I know what the planeswalkers do. I just don't understand why you are running 1-ofs. If you have 2 powerful planeswalkers out at the same time and you don't win, you've done something wrong. So why not run 3, 3, 1 (garruk, maybe, as he's a house if you can get him to stick for 2 turns) I guess what I'm asking is why you need ALL the planeswalkers?

[tons of fun]

I know what the planeswalkers do. I just don't understand why you are running 1-ofs. If you have 2 powerful planeswalkers out at the same time and you don't win, you've done something wrong. So why not run 3, 3, 1 (garruk, maybe, as he's a house if you can get him to stick for 2 turns) I guess what I'm asking is why you need ALL the planeswalkers?

cuz i have runn super friend in legacy for years and done well with at wut won me alot of the game is havin a daveristy of planewalkers that have a range of abiloityies that put the game in your favor

[Star|Scream]

cuz i have runn super friend in legacy for years and done well with at wut won me alot of the game is havin a daveristy of planewalkers that have a range of abiloityies that put the game in your favor

Uh, nevermind. I withdraw all my objections. You're obviously smarter than I am.

[tons of fun]

Uh, nevermind. I withdraw all my objections. You're obviously smarter than I am.

smarter no but just very different play style

[plogan]

To whoever asked about my junk list here it is.

Maindeck: 61 cards

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Academy Rector
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Thoughtseize
2x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kukusho, The Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Varolz, The Scar-Striped
1x Thragtusk
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15

3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Golgari Charm
1x Rest in Peace
1x Exclusion Ritual
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ashen Rider
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide

And yes, deck registration completely sucks with this list with 19 singletons main. If anyone wants to pick my brain feel free. And if anyone has a suggestion as to what to cut in the main deck for a 23rd land I would appreciate the help!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

To whoever asked about my junk list here it is.

Maindeck: 61 cards

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Academy Rector
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Thoughtseize
2x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kukusho, The Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Varolz, The Scar-Striped
1x Thragtusk
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15

3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Golgari Charm
1x Rest in Peace
1x Exclusion Ritual
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ashen Rider
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide

And yes, deck registration completely sucks with this list with 19 singletons main. If anyone wants to pick my brain feel free. And if anyone has a suggestion as to what to cut in the main deck for a 23rd land I would appreciate the help!

Dryad Arbor could be cut for a better land.

[pfiremc13]

Dryad Arbor could be cut for a better land.

Dryad arbor is actually quite useful as a backup ramp source and to flashback therapy. If it dies to deed, it did its job.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I agree on its uses as sacrifice fodder and as a backup ramp source: used to do tricks like float Dryad Arbor mana, Diabolic Intent for one more. However, I have found that because Arbor dies to Deed too easily without any real contribution, using a Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 for it is questionable to me.

[pfiremc13]

Well you shouldn't rely on it; it's just nice to be able to do

If you need temporary ramp or if you don't have deed, it's a good play.

[plogan]

I never zenith for arbor it is simply there for the times when I really REALLY need to therapy something from my opponents hand such as in game 2 against my latest show and tell opponent. Though I agree with you that as a land it sucks it has saved my bacon more often than screwed me over so it will probably stay.

[Megadeus]

I ran it in straight GB for awhile. It was either really good, or really bad. Not a fan of it personally since Deathrite was printed. I see the merits of it being free Sacrifice fodder though and I definitely think it has its uses

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I never zenith for arbor it is simply there for the times when I really REALLY need to therapy something from my opponents hand such as in game 2 against my latest show and tell opponent. Though I agree with you that as a land it sucks it has saved my bacon more often than screwed me over so it will probably stay.

May I suggest a Mishra's Factory or Treetop Village then? Both can tap to activate themselves, and thus can be used as sacrifice fodder.

Or at the very least, run more Verdant Catacombs and whatever the GW Fetch is: they can also fetch Dryad Arbor late game in case you're going into top deck mode.

[pfiremc13]

Mishra's and village suck for that purpose. They can't be fetched by gsz or fetches. Also village needs an extra mana to activate, and Mishra's causes problems with your manabase.

He only has one of each dual and 7 basics; more fetches isn't really an option

Cutting a marsh flats is a possibility though

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Mishra's and village suck for that purpose. They can't be fetched by gsz or fetches. Also village needs an extra mana to activate, and Mishra's causes problems with your manabase.

He only has one of each dual and 7 basics; more fetches isn't really an option

Cutting a marsh flats is a possibility though

While they are indeed worse for sacrifice outlets and can't be easily searched save for PrimeTime, they are better at combat in general and can work around Deed.

As far as fetches go, I suggest running the full set of Windswept Heath and Verdant Catacombs before Marsh Flats. Don't really have a legitimate reason why other than Nic Fit is so green heavy anyway that 8 Fetches that can get a basic Forest or Forest dual feels optimal, but a similar deckbuilding philosophy has served me well with my own BUG Fit.

Anyhow, I had skimmed over plogan's list the first time: let me give it a few trial runs and see how it goes.

[pfiremc13]

They're just not good enough to reliably fight combo that way. If I had villages in my list I would still run arbor.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

True, but like I told someone earlier on (about a few weeks ago, not too far back), it's best to focus the main deck towards beating fair decks (with Cabal Therapy and Rector enchantments being the exceptions) and to focus most of the sideboard to beating various combo decks.

In all honesty, Nic Fit has plenty of room for deck-building choices, so it may turn out what's good for one list is bad for another. Best way to find out is to grind out training sessions.

[pfiremc13]

True, but like I told someone earlier on (about a few weeks ago, not too far back), it's best to focus the main deck towards beating fair decks (with Cabal Therapy and Rector enchantments being the exceptions) and to focus most of the sideboard to beating various combo decks.

Do you really want dryad arbor taking up sideboard space?

Plus the gsz -> arbor is still a relevant and useful thing, despite the weakness of it to removal and deed. It's just like casting a mana elf. It is useful for the time it is on the battlefield. You shouldn't keep hands you would otherwise mull because you can gsz for arbor, but it is nice to have.


In all honesty, Nic Fit has plenty of room for deck-building choices, so it may turn out what's good for one list is bad for another. Best way to find out is to grind out training sessions.

True

But plogan did test it

[pettdan]

I'm looking forward to testing Ralf's Planeswalker build, just bought the last Ashiok and Vraska. It's fascinating to see how many archetypes can fit within a Nic Fit shell...

On another subject, I think Zameck Guildmage merits some testing. I couldn't find any mentioning of it in this thread. It seems like a good alternative to Melira, Sylvok Outcast if you're playing blue. With one activation of the +1/+1 effect it enables the same combo of infinite sacrificing of a creature with persist.

During the late game, or during podding, it allows you to give any topdecked creature +1/+1, +2/+2, +3/+3 etc when entering. Since podding doesn't require a lot of mana once it gets going there should be opportunities to boost the podded creatures and drawing cards. A late topdecked Veteran Explorer is usually rather useless but with Zameck around it could give you, with GGGUUU available, a 4/4 creature. And potentially drawing three cards next turn. Or just boosting it once, drawing a card and then sacrificing. A Dryad Arbor in the deck could similarly make any late topdecked fetchland useful. If you instead consider podding into Deranged Hermit/Grave Titan in the same situation that would even be a rather strong move.

It adds to the blue count for Force of Will, assuming it's not sided out. 1-2 Glen Elendra Archmage in the 75 could make it worth keeping in.

Some cards that Zameck has good synergy with:

1. persist creatures + sacrifice outlet.
Sacrifice outlets: the usual combination - Varolz, the Scar-Striped; for single sacrificing Birthing Pod, Recurring Nightmare, Diabolic Intent, Phyrexian Tower
Persist creatures: the usual combination of Murderous Redcap, Kitchen Finks and Glen Elendra Archmage. Note that the Redcap gets some extra synergy by shooting for 3+ damage during a single sacrifice.
2. Token generators: Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, Lingering Souls, Primeval Bounty, Garruk Relentless, Garruk, Primal Hunter
3. +1/+1 counter generators for extra card drawing: Scavenging Ooze, Varolz, the Scar-Striped, Spike Feeder, Necroplasm, Strangleroot Geist, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Primeval Bounty, Archangel of Thune, Gavony Township

One of the problems with the combo is that Melira is very week on her own and Varolz is relatively week (unless you find some good high power and low CMC creatures to put in the deck). However Zameck seems much better than Melira on its own. And Varolz's ability becomes more valuable with Zameck around.

Another problem is that it's hard to assemble the combo. I'm thinking Zameck may possibly be good enough on its own though. It dies easily, and is killed by deed. But the card draw, boosting any creature and the repeated benefits of the already useful persist creatures may make it worthwile. And you can get it back from the graveyard to assemble the combo in the late game with an Eternal Witness or Recurring Nightmare.

[pfiremc13]

I like the idea of zameck guildmage. I agree that it solves that main issue with melira.

Maybe a 4 color build with thune combo?

[plogan]

I could see maybe cutting a marsh flats for another bayou in my list, also I'm not looking for a utility land so much as another reliable mana source should've specified that earlier sorry all.

[pettdan]

I like the idea of zameck guildmage. I agree that it solves that main issue with melira.

Maybe a 4 color build with thune combo?

Sorry for a long post... It's hard to focus it with all the deck building alternatives. And since I'm in the process of focusing it, obviously. :)

I did try to fit everything I wanted into a 5 color deck (easily changed into 4 colours), I'll post it here in case you're interested in a starting point. It's not nearly finished. I tried it for three local tournaments in different versions. Never quite got used to all the options or decided to focus on a gameplan. Will continue later. At best it went 2-0-1 where 1 win was from a bye, one 2-1 win against Sneak and Show where I got to show in Opposition in two games (winning, however it was an inexperienced player and he lacked Lotus Petals), and 1-1 against Blade Control (he actually won the third game which we played out quickly after the tournament). During the following tournament I had a couple of situations where the mana base was causing problems, so I'm trying a BUG(r) list now.

Why red?
The 5th color is red and it's used against combo and perhaps control decks (without wasteland). There are 10 cards (+ Brainstorm) that let you get red mana. Red is used for Slaughter Games (sideboard) and Rise//Fall (maindeck). I posted my comments on Rise//Fall previously here. Basically it has good synergy with most creatures in the deck, and against combo or control it's a weaker version of Hymn to Tourach that can be removed for Force of Will. And it synergizes with Cabal Therapy and Shriekmaw. I use it in place of Abrupt Decay in the maindeck, though putting decay in the sideboard for Miracles (perhaps more copies of Slaughter Games would be better though) and Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, Blood Moon etc. Rise//Fall could work well with Intuition too - Intuition for Eternal Witness, Rise//Fall and Recurring Nightmare would be good, and it's tempting to try out Life from the Loam.

Why white?
To put it shortly it adds power to any creature matchup (Mystic + Batterskull + Sigarda), it adds poddable creature removal (Pontiff) and gives two tutorable cards for the combo matchup (Rector for Opposition and GSZ for Gaddock). Academy Rector will also get Deed against aggro and Recurring Nightmare against control.

The plan against combo in the first game is to attack the opponent's hand with Cabal Therapy and Rise//Fall, attack the opponent's graveyard with Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, pod into Glen Elendra Archmage and possibly a Zameck Guildmage, when appropriate Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg (get rid of him with Recurring Nightmare / Pod / Rise//Fall if you need to cast something), attack the opponent's mana with Opposition and possibly Recurring Nightmare/Acidic Slime. Opposition can stop most big creatures (except Ulamog and Progenitus). Then. After sideboarding there are plenty of counterspells and when you hit red mana you can Slaughter Games important pieces.

The plan against creature based decks is, I guess, to pod into Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull and then later pod or GSZ for Sigarda, which is very good with a batterskull on it. Who cares about True-Name Nemesis, Jace or Liliana? Also the Orzhov Pontiff, Massacre Wurm and Umezawa's Jitte give plenty of ways to get rid of opposing troublesome creature swarms. This is not really a deed deck in its current incarnation and that's why I have pod answers to creatures, I guess. And there are plenty of ways to gain life with Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Kitchen Finks, Archangel of Thune and Deathrite Shaman. And card advantage with Recurring Nightmare, Pod and persist creatures.

Against control decks I like Recurring Nightmare with Acidic Slime, taking their lands. And Slaughter Games to get rid of threats. And Sigarda with Batterskull.


CREATURES (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Baleful Strix
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Zameck Guildmage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Academy Rector
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Acidic Slime
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

ENCHANTMENTS (3)
1 Opposition
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

SORCERIES (8)
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Rise // Fall

INSTANTS (4)
4 Brainstorm

ARTIFACTS (4)
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

LANDS (20)
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Taiga

SIDEBOARD
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Force of Will
2 Slaughter Games
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Moat
1 Massacre Wurm


Changes:
Next I would try to make the deck more consistent, and trim some alternatives. Probably need to skip one color, and I want to keep the one that gives me the best chances against combo decks.
- I would like to have more relevant maindeck cards against combo (such as Negate, Thoughtseize, Gitaxian Probe or +1 Glen Elendra Archmage).
- Adding a Sensei's Divining Top or two would help with the forth and fifth colours.

Changes, less red:
- Change Slaughter Games into Riptide Pilferer or Nether Void?
- I like Rise//Fall but should probably try switching them into Abrupt Decay and then changing Force of Wills into Negates. Even if it goes against my ambitions to have a chance game 1 against combo.
- Adding a Spike Feeder for increased chances to collect a combo, and for utility.

Changes, less white:
- Change Archangel of Thune into... Grave Titan? I read in the reanimator thread that it's their best clock. Should try it.
- Change Umezawa's Jitte and Orzhov Pontiff into Sensei's Divining Top or Glen Elendra Archmage? Or change Orzhov Pontiff into a maindecked Massacre Wurm, to lessen dependence on white. Adding a Glen Elendra to the sideboard.

[pfiremc13]

The 5th color is red and it's used against combo and perhaps control decks (without wasteland). There are 10 cards (+ Brainstorm) that let you get red mana. Red is used for Slaughter Games (sideboard) and Rise//Fall (maindeck). I posted my comments on Rise//Fall previously here. Basically it has good synergy with most creatures in the deck, and against combo or control it's a weaker version of Hymn to Tourach that can be removed for Force of Will. And it synergizes with Cabal Therapy and Shriekmaw. I use it in place of Abrupt Decay in the maindeck, though putting decay in the sideboard for Miracles (perhaps more copies of Slaughter Games would be better though) and Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, Blood Moon etc. Rise//Fall could work well with Intuition too - Intuition for Eternal Witness, Rise//Fall and Recurring Nightmare would be good, and it's tempting to try out Life from the Loam.


I feel like blue and white will give you enough options against combo

Also rise and fall seems good but not really worth splashing red for.

Use memoricide/extraction over slaughter games


The plan against creature based decks is, I guess, to pod into Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull and then later pod or GSZ for Sigarda, which is very good with a batterskull on it. Who cares about True-Name Nemesis, Jace or Liliana? Also the Orzhov Pontiff, Massacre Wurm and Umezawa's Jitte give plenty of ways to get rid of opposing troublesome creature swarms. This is not really a deed deck in its current incarnation and that's why I have pod answers to creatures, I guess. And there are plenty of ways to gain life with Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Kitchen Finks, Archangel of Thune and Deathrite Shaman. And card advantage with Recurring Nightmare, Pod and persist creatures.

1-of mystic seems awkward as it's hard to pod into, unless you like to keep explorers around randomly.

I'd rather have thragtusk and kitchen finks. Keep the batterskull though

I'm not really worried about the deck's control matchup. It seems pretty good.

Cards I curious about:


1 Baleful Strix


1 Stoneforge Mystic


(Even though I don't like it, you did the testing)


1 Phantasmal Image


1 Orzhov Pontiff


1 Acidic Slime


1 Shriekmaw


1 Opposition

(Would humility be better?)


1 Pernicious Deed

(Rector target?)


2 Green Sun’s Zenith

(Was this the right number?)


2 Rise // Fall

(Same as sfm)


1 Umezawa's Jitte

(How did it work?)


Changes:
Next I would try to make the deck more consistent, and trim some alternatives. Probably need to skip one color, and I want to keep the one that gives me the best chances against combo decks.
- I would like to have more relevant maindeck cards against combo (such as Negate, Thoughtseize, Gitaxian Probe or +1 Glen Elendra Archmage).
- Adding a Sensei's Divining Top or two would help with the forth and fifth colours.

I like these changes



- Adding a Spike Feeder for increased chances to collect a combo, and for utility.


- Change Archangel of Thune into... Grave Titan?

These changes don't work together

I like the thune combo, ftr.

You can try just taking out red and see how it works.

[Megadeus]

Played my pod list with a Forceless SB last night. Didn't do too hot with 1-3. Still feel like it is player error and not necessarily the deck that is getting me though.

SB:
1 Deed
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen ELendra
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swan Song
1 Zur's Wierding
3 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm

Round 1 MetalWorker MUD with Painter Stone. He goes T2 Greaves, I blind therapy hitting 2 Metalworker. Then Slime his T2 Staff of Domination and just totally annihilate him. Game 2 I just brought in Deed and a couple of KGrip. I die pretty quickly as he gets Goblin Welder and Greaves on the board, I dont see a Deed. My removal and discard becomes useless. Game 3 I Miss metal worker (shouldve named Welder though in hindsight) and he plays Welder. Again it makes my artifact removal useless. I do draw fleshbag to get it off of the board, then flashback therapy to get his in hand Forgemaster. Unfortunately he top decks a welder like a champ, gets back forgemaster, gets Blightsteel, and kills me that turn. I didn't have a green source to activate DRS :/

Round 2 Burn. It was actually vs the guy who committed DCI fraud at the SCG Invi a few weeks back. We were all surprised he hadn't been banned yet. Im sure it is coming. Anyway, he gets double Goblin Guide, I get DRS and Veteran and chump with explorer, gaining a couple life off of DRS. He is dumb and doesnt kill it. He gets me down to 2, But I GSZ for Scooze and play wood elves just to chump block. Even tually I trade with all of his men, top deck a pod, then top deck Glen Elendra to get Tusk and Use my in hand Image to Copy Tusk. GG. Game 2 I therapy away a flame rift and double fireblast, stabilize at one and have a couple of turns where I am dead to any burn spell. He draws lands, I slam Glen Elendra and get finks and Fleshbag in to gain life and bring the pain while Glen Elendra locks him out.

Round 3 Punishing Jund. This game was awkward and showed why Planeswalkers are something that I need to figure out a better way to deal with. I knew he was on jund and kept some loose one landers with Veteran explorer, but never draw any therapies to really get his hand, and with a slow start he gets ahead with Goyfs and Liliana which I cant deal with and I just die. Both games. Meh. This one was probably on me not Mulliganing.

Round 4 vs White Prison Weenies. Lol vs my friend . I dont think I can actually beat this deck featuring 4 Suppression Field, 4 Leonin Arbiter, 3 Aven Mindcensor. Also I never drew a deed. Got raped in the for fun game.

The sideboard was meh. Still figuring out what I want to do there. I still think that in my meta I don't need force. I definitely don't need 3 KGrip either. Probably cut back to 2. In the main, I still haven't used Thrun, I may switch it up to a Redcap or something, My 4 drops just seem underwhelming in some board states. Is there any good creature that is worth playing that can deal with Walkers? I was thinking honestly of playing like a Hero's Downfall or something. Decay can deal with Liliana, but not Jace.

[pettdan]

Thanks for your comments! I'll test them. I have tried to answer your comments below.


I feel like blue and white will give you enough options against combo

Also rise and fall seems good but not really worth splashing red for.

Use memoricide/extraction over slaughter games

You'r probably right, I was planning to go for BUG(r) but I'll try BUGw too now.


1-of mystic seems awkward as it's hard to pod into, unless you like to keep explorers around randomly.

I'd rather have thragtusk and kitchen finks. Keep the batterskull though

I'm not really worried about the deck's control matchup. It seems pretty good.

I feel like a Batterskull in the deck without the Mystic will appear randomly, which is good, but being able to pod into it is better. Tutorable great cards are much better than untutorable great cards. It gives you a) card advantage when tutored, b) probably the cheapest (CMC-wise) threat of the deck, c) early lifegain and blocking (very relevant for a deck that tries to survive until the late game) and d) a strong lategame threat on its own and better with Sigarda. The only obvious disadvantages I can see are that it doesn't do much vs combo and that it requires W and preferably WW. I like it in Nic Fit even without the Birthing Pods. To me it seems like a superior Thragtusk. The Jitte can be a key card too in certain matchups (see comment on Pontiff below). Having 4 Veteran Explorers in the deck means you'll regularly be podding into it, without a deckbuilding effort to do so; the Dryad Arbor makes it easy to pod into it when it's crucial.


Cards I curious about:

Baleful Strix and Phantasmal Image are just generally useful, they could be exchanged. I think I did swap the Image already, not sure for what. The Strix is just there to help me survive the first few turns, and getting a land. It could be exchanged for something. I could try Spike Feeder.

I started with Orzhov Pontiff and Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard but since I used them often I added them to the maindeck. There's usually Elves, Maverick, Goblins and Death and Taxes in my local meta. Which also motivates the Massacre Wurm (also killing dredge-zombies, TNN, flipped Delver etc, and remember you can recur it to deal double damage with -4/-4 {edit: my mistake, no double damage}).

I started with Harmonic Sliver in the maindeck but changed it to Acidic Slime after a couple of games where I could have used it to remove all opposing lands in a topdecking war. It didn't matter much yet that it costs more. However the Sliver was stopped by Chalice of the Void for 3 once and some other time by the white mana cost.


(Would humility be better?)

The reason for Opposition above Humility is that it is useful in more matchups. The deck has enough creatures for Humility to be useful too, and Batterskull has good synergy. But I like that with Opposition in play each creature that enters the battlefield under your control can neutralize one land for the opponent. So if you survive until turn 3-4 your combo-playing opponent will practically lose one land for each creature you play. Making it hard to land a Dream Halls, Ad Nauseam {edit: bad example, it's an instant}, etc. There are lots of cards that can do a similar thing, but I haven't found any that will potentially put a mana lock on a combo player OR stop Emrakul/Grizzlebrand once in play OR stop an opposing Batterskull, flipped Delver or almost any other creature. And sacrifice to Force of Will as a bonus. It has very wide uses. On paper I like it, but it's quite slow.

Regarding the two Green Sun's Zenith I'm not sure what would be the correct number. I'd like to add one for increased consistency in getting Veteran Explorer or a combat dominating creature (Sigarda/Finks). And then it's valuable for the Ooze and Gaddock when they matter, or lastly for increased chances of accidentally pulling of the combo.

Regarding Grave Titan / Spike Feeder you're right, it was my intention to mention it as two separate plausible changes.

[pfiremc13]

Having 4 Veteran Explorers in the deck means you'll regularly be podding into it, without a deckbuilding effort to do so; the Dryad Arbor makes it easy to pod into it when it's crucial.

Wait until t4 to sac an explorer?

I see what you mean about arbor, but I don't like having to sac lands to pod into an sfm. It's just as random as batterskull for me.


I started with Orzhov Pontiff and Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard but since I used them often I added them to the maindeck. There's usually Elves, Maverick, Goblins and Death and Taxes in my local meta. Which also motivates the Massacre Wurm (also killing dredge-zombies, TNN, flipped Delver etc, and remember you can recur it to deal double damage with -4/-4 {edit: my mistake, no double damage}).

Ok so this is a meta thing. Makes sense.


I started with Harmonic Sliver in the maindeck but changed it to Acidic Slime after a couple of games where I could have used it to remove all opposing lands in a topdecking war. It didn't matter much yet that it costs more. However the Sliver was stopped by Chalice of the Void for 3 once and some other time by the white mana cost.

Does this come up very often?

Do you find killing artifacts and enchantments is useful enough to warrant a maindeck slot?


The reason for Opposition above Humility is that it is useful in more matchups. The deck has enough creatures for Humility to be useful too, and Batterskull has good synergy. But I like that with Opposition in play each creature that enters the battlefield under your control can neutralize one land for the opponent. So if you survive until turn 3-4 your combo-playing opponent will practically lose one land for each creature you play. Making it hard to land a Dream Halls, Ad Nauseam {edit: bad example, it's an instant}, etc. There are lots of cards that can do a similar thing, but I haven't found any that will potentially put a mana lock on a combo player OR stop Emrakul/Grizzlebrand once in play OR stop an opposing Batterskull, flipped Delver or almost any other creature. And sacrifice to Force of Will as a bonus. It has very wide uses. On paper I like it, but it's quite slow.

Seems nice.

Its slowness is why it's a rector target, isn't it? :P


Regarding the two Green Sun's Zenith I'm not sure what would be the correct number. I'd like to add one for increased consistency in getting Veteran Explorer or a combat dominating creature (Sigarda/Finks). And then it's valuable for the Ooze and Gaddock when they matter, or lastly for increased chances of accidentally pulling of the combo.

I agree.

[tons of fun]

played my pod list with a forceless sb last night. Didn't do too hot with 1-3. Still feel like it is player error and not necessarily the deck that is getting me though.

Sb:
1 deed
1 notion thief
1 glen elendra
3 thoughtseize
3 swan song
1 zur's wierding
3 krosan grip
2 golgari charm

round 1 metalworker mud with painter stone. He goes t2 greaves, i blind therapy hitting 2 metalworker. Then slime his t2 staff of domination and just totally annihilate him. Game 2 i just brought in deed and a couple of kgrip. I die pretty quickly as he gets goblin welder and greaves on the board, i dont see a deed. My removal and discard becomes useless. Game 3 i miss metal worker (shouldve named welder though in hindsight) and he plays welder. Again it makes my artifact removal useless. I do draw fleshbag to get it off of the board, then flashback therapy to get his in hand forgemaster. Unfortunately he top decks a welder like a champ, gets back forgemaster, gets blightsteel, and kills me that turn. I didn't have a green source to activate drs :/

round 2 burn. It was actually vs the guy who committed dci fraud at the scg invi a few weeks back. We were all surprised he hadn't been banned yet. Im sure it is coming. Anyway, he gets double goblin guide, i get drs and veteran and chump with explorer, gaining a couple life off of drs. He is dumb and doesnt kill it. He gets me down to 2, but i gsz for scooze and play wood elves just to chump block. Even tually i trade with all of his men, top deck a pod, then top deck glen elendra to get tusk and use my in hand image to copy tusk. Gg. Game 2 i therapy away a flame rift and double fireblast, stabilize at one and have a couple of turns where i am dead to any burn spell. He draws lands, i slam glen elendra and get finks and fleshbag in to gain life and bring the pain while glen elendra locks him out.

Round 3 punishing jund. This game was awkward and showed why planeswalkers are something that i need to figure out a better way to deal with. I knew he was on jund and kept some loose one landers with veteran explorer, but never draw any therapies to really get his hand, and with a slow start he gets ahead with goyfs and liliana which i cant deal with and i just die. Both games. Meh. This one was probably on me not mulliganing.

Round 4 vs white prison weenies. Lol vs my friend . I dont think i can actually beat this deck featuring 4 suppression field, 4 leonin arbiter, 3 aven mindcensor. Also i never drew a deed. Got raped in the for fun game.

The sideboard was meh. Still figuring out what i want to do there. I still think that in my meta i don't need force. I definitely don't need 3 kgrip either. Probably cut back to 2. In the main, i still haven't used thrun, i may switch it up to a redcap or something, my 4 drops just seem underwhelming in some board states. Is there any good creature that is worth playing that can deal with walkers? I was thinking honestly of playing like a hero's downfall or something. Decay can deal with liliana, but not jace.

in what match up did the zur weirding come in handy i am really intreged by that

[Megadeus]

Wierding is supposed to come in vs combo. You drop it (after disrupting their hand preferably) and it is actually just a hard lock. Anytime they would draw either a spell that can win the game for them, or an answer to the wierding you pay 2 life and make them discard it. Alternatively, maybe even miracles since they are so threat light a lot of the time.

[tons of fun]

wierding is supposed to come in vs combo. You drop it (after disrupting their hand preferably) and it is actually just a hard lock. Anytime they would draw either a spell that can win the game for them, or an answer to the wierding you pay 2 life and make them discard it. Alternatively, maybe even miracles since they are so threat light a lot of the time.

oooh that naughty lol

[Claymore]

that's interesting...how effective is it? They can just stop you from drawing threats too, although I imagine you're more threat dense than combo.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Interesting choice, though I'm wondering how well it works against TES and ANT since they have Past in Flames.

[Megadeus]

Pif is a one outer for ANT and tes would have to wish for it so that doesn't work. Also the idea is kind of to hopefully have a threat before you drop it. Because since it is a hard lock, all you need is even a lowly strix or vet to win. I've yet to play against combo though so it is all theory.

[Star|Scream]

Interesting choice, though I'm wondering how well it works against TES and ANT since they have Past in Flames.

Well they still need to find the Past in Flames, which will be hard to do if they have no draw step (or a very limited one.)

You need to have a decent threat out before you drop this, or they can just shock race you.

[Megadeus]

Just wrote a paragraph on the card and lost it... so sad. I'll rewrite later after work

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Fair enough. As for the clock issue, that's one of the reasons I like the Glen Elendra Archmage + Melira, Sylvok Outcast lock, as the lock pieces itself can swing for damage themselves.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if Melira is better than Master Biomancer for this lock or not: more or less just a CMC issue versus clock issue.

[pettdan]

Well they still need to find the Past in Flames, which will be hard to do if they have no draw step (or a very limited one.)

You need to have a decent threat out before you drop this, or they can just shock race you.

On the topic of Zur's Weirding against ANT, they can not only use Past in Flames but also Infernal Tutor or/for Ad Nauseam if they have it in hand. Any card in hand can still be used, of course, so extra discard in the sideboard seems slightly more useful than normally if you're using Zur's Weirding. On the other hand, counterspells will do the trick too. I agree Zur's Weirding seems like a good combo hoser. I tried it once but never got to put it into play. Very interested in reading about your future experiences, Megadeus.

With a Zur's Weirding in play against a combo deck any creature in your deck will be a threat, so you may have a pretty good threat density depending on sideboarding. However Volrath's Stronghold should work well with it. And Birthing Pod.


Fair enough. As for the clock issue, that's one of the reasons I like the Glen Elendra Archmage + Melira, Sylvok Outcast lock, as the lock pieces itself can swing for damage themselves.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure if Melira is better than Master Biomancer for this lock or not: more or less just a CMC issue versus clock issue.

You could also consider Zameck Guildmage as an alternative to those two. Here's a recent comment on it:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=778132&viewfull=1#post778132


Wait until t4 to sac an explorer?

I see what you mean about arbor, but I don't like having to sac lands to pod into an sfm. It's just as random as batterskull for me.

No, I wouldn't postpone sacrificing an Explorer during turn 1-3 to keep it for starting a pod chain later. But suppose you reach turn 5-6 something and haven't hit your Batterskull yet (most games). Without the Mystic in your deck you will have about 2% chance of pulling the single Batterskull. If you have a Pod in play, there is a chance of about 4% to pull Mystic or Batterskull and in addition to those 4% there is up to (~13/45) 29% chance of drawing a card that can start a pod chain to get the Batterskull. And note that you get the Skull as an extra card from Mystic and can continue the pod chain.

I guess I also wouldn't sacrifice a land when I need lands, but when you reach 5+ lands a mystic to pod away + a Batterskull will often be better than one extra land. The Arbor does have its disadvantages though.


Does this come up very often?

Do you find killing artifacts and enchantments is useful enough to warrant a maindeck slot?

I guess I need to play more but so far the Slime has been good, yes. I'm very happy with it. I do want to have something in the main for artifacts and enchantments, especially with TNN and all equipments being used. And it does offer an answer to Sneak Attack / Omniscience / Grove of the Burnwillows. I guess if you run 3 Deeds though you may have a different situation.


Seems nice.

Its slowness is why it's a rector target, isn't it? :P

Yes, it's a bit expensive to play, but the slowness really comes about once it has reached play, when you start tapping down lands or creatures and wait for a big creature (Sigarda) to finish the game, a Deed or some other game breaking card. I need to play it more though to be able to evaluate it properly.

[Megadeus]

With Zur's Weirding, the hope is that you have disrupted their hand and such to the point that they can not just win with whatever is in hand. Like I said, I have done 0 testing and it is all theoretical. My thoughts on it in different Match Ups:

ANT: probably the weakest here as has been pointed out. If you can't snipe an Infernal Tutor out of their hand your Wierding does nothing. Even if you do they can simply draw pif and win anyway. Still though, if they don't have a tutor or something in hand, then you have 4 Tutors, 1 Tendrils, 1 Adnauseam, and maybe a grim Tutor to deal with? Otherwise you don't have to worry about too many things. I guess if you really have a clock down already you can even stop their cantrips.

TES: Card seems good, but they do have a lot of things that you can't let them have. 4 Infernal, 4 Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Empty the Warrens (unless you have deed in hand). That is 10 cards, which over the course of the game COULD equal 20 life.

Mono U Omni: This is where I feel that it is varied. not only can they help you get it into play sometimes via Show and Tell, but they are extremely threat light. If they don't have cunning wish in hand when they get their Omni into play, it is actually just a hard lock. Just prevent them from drawing 1 of their 4 Cunning Wish. If they are running the singleton Emrakul it becomes a tad awkward. As you preventing them to draw him allows them to shuffle their yard in and keep casting ETI's until you run out of life. This is actually something I hadn't thought of when I added the card.

Sneak and Show: Fairly Strong here. Drop it and since they reveal their hand, assuming you haven't seen it or disrupted it already, you just prevent them from drawing either creatures if they have SnT or Sneak in play, or sneak and Show if they have dudes in play.


When I am boarding vs Combo, I am generally boarding in 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Swan Song, 1 Weirdingand sometimes maybe Golgari Charm for sneaks. So you do end up going to 7 hand disrution spells post board.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alright: my current list (see top link in signature) is pretty much set in stone for an unknown meta in terms of the main deck, but I'm having some difficulties with the side.

Some things I will keep in just because of how good they are in our trouble matchups, but I definitely have my doubts regarding Phyrexian Revoker, or any other card that could fit into that slot for that matter.

The gist for Revoker is to bring it in against combo such as Elves!, Sneak and Show, or anything that relies on activated abilities of a particular nonland card such as LED.

[Megadeus]

I like the list a lot. One question, is there not an underground sea because of a budget reason or is it due to it just not needed?


Also revoker seems fine. Considering in every combo MU you board out Deed other than elves anyway

[civet five]

Alright: my current list (see top link in signature) is pretty much set in stone for an unknown meta in terms of the main deck, but I'm having some difficulties with the side.

Some things I will keep in just because of how good they are in our trouble matchups, but I definitely have my doubts regarding Phyrexian Revoker, or any other card that could fit into that slot for that matter.

The gist for Revoker is to bring it in against combo such as Elves!, Sneak and Show, or anything that relies on activated abilities of a particular nonland card such as LED.

I like the Revokers as well.

Melira without Pod and only 2 Archmages for Persist abuses seems a bit awkward. Is the chance of setting up the hard lock that much better than just running a 3rd Archmage or Revoker?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I like the list a lot. One question, is there not an underground sea because of a budget reason or is it due to it just not needed?


Also revoker seems fine. Considering in every combo MU you board out Deed other than elves anyway

In my limited experience, actually needing Underground Sea before setting off a Veteran Explorer trigger is rare and needing it after that is even rarer. I'm much more likely to fetch a basic land or Bayou/Tropical Island.


I like the Revokers as well.

Melira without Pod and only 2 Archmages for Persist abuses seems a bit awkward. Is the chance of setting up the hard lock that much better than just running a 3rd Archmage or Revoker?

Green Sun's Zenith helps a lot with getting Melira out, though I will admit that setting up the other half of that combo is a bit tricky since I can't tutor for Archmage other than Diabolic Intent and intense digging . . . looks like I've got some grinding to do ^_^

[pfiremc13]

No, I wouldn't postpone sacrificing an Explorer during turn 1-3 to keep it for starting a pod chain later. But suppose you reach turn 5-6 something and haven't hit your Batterskull yet (most games). Without the Mystic in your deck you will have about 2% chance of pulling the single Batterskull. If you have a Pod in play, there is a chance of about 4% to pull Mystic or Batterskull and in addition to those 4% there is up to (~13/45) 29% chance of drawing a card that can start a pod chain to get the Batterskull. And note that you get the Skull as an extra card from Mystic and can continue the pod chain.

I guess I also wouldn't sacrifice a land when I need lands, but when you reach 5+ lands a mystic to pod away + a Batterskull will often be better than one extra land. The Arbor does have its disadvantages though.

I see.


I guess if you run 3 Deeds though you may have a different situation.

True.


Yes, it's a bit expensive to play, but the slowness really comes about once it has reached play, when you start tapping down lands or creatures and wait for a big creature (Sigarda) to finish the game, a Deed or some other game breaking card. I need to play it more though to be able to evaluate it properly.

I see.

[jbone2016]

Gleicher on camera with BUG pod again.

[Megadeus]

Gleicher on camera with BUG pod again.

So good. Hope he does well. Would like to see his list

Apparently he plays Aetherling. Oh yes. I knew it was the second best 6 drop after grave titan

[conboy31]

Beating a t3 jace while being on the draw is pretty tough for vet.

[Megadeus]

That was also a pretty terrible keep. Especially when you knew your opponent was keeping his 7. I mean I know time was running thin, but that hand was bad. 6 lands and a vet

[Claymore]

Should've sent both Explorers against the Jace at 2.

[jbone2016]

David ended up in 10th. Nice job!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62393

[KntrellCL]

I was tunning my Nic Fit up. Here's the result.

Lands [21]
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [23]
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Restoration Angel
1 Shriekmaw
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan


Spells [17]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

I like the cmc 3 - 4 - 5 against artifacts. I like dryad arbor since you can fetch for it and go for a DRS with pod and start a chain. You can play turn 2 POD on the draw... etc...

With all that artifact hate, may be it would be good agaisnt TNN decks

[Megadeus]

Davids list is pretty close to my own. I'm not a fan of not having the Fleshbag Maurader in the board though. I'm still glad I'm not the only one who thinks Aetherling is a great 6 drop in this deck

If nothin else, this gives me slim hope for Nashville next month

[Blastoderm]

I was tunning my Nic Fit up. Here's the result.

Lands [21]
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [23]
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone Shredder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Restoration Angel
1 Shriekmaw
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan


Spells [17]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

I like the cmc 3 - 4 - 5 against artifacts. I like dryad arbor since you can fetch for it and go for a DRS with pod and start a chain. You can play turn 2 POD on the draw... etc...

With all that artifact hate, may be it would be good agaisnt TNN decks

Wow your list is very similar to mine. I would suggest wall of blossoms over strangleroot geist and an academy rector over the second restoration angel :) A 4th copy of pod is necessary I think.

[KntrellCL]

Wow your list is very similar to mine. I would suggest wall of blossoms over strangleroot geist and an academy rector over the second restoration angel :) A 4th copy of pod is necessary I think.

I used to have Wall of Blossoms, but I just found as a poor card (it is our own "baleful strix" since it's a wall which draw). Finally tooking it out, im giving a second chance of geist for its persist since I really love my CMC3 cards...

In fact, my CMC2 creature I used to play was Stoneforge Mystic but it was using a lot of space and i was usually using my mana on something else isntead of equiping creatures. any other thoughts?


Im going to try something like this on my sb

4 Thoughtseize
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Choke

[Kung Fu English]

Davids list is pretty close to my own. I'm not a fan of not having the Fleshbag Maurader in the board though. I'm still glad I'm not the only one who thinks Aetherling is a great 6 drop in this deck

If nothin else, this gives me slim hope for Nashville next month

Any reason the list runs Redcap and Finks but NOT Melira? Seems like an easy 1 of although I know it's fragile.

[Ralf]

I used to have Wall of Blossoms, but I just found as a poor card (it is our own "baleful strix" since it's a wall which draw). Finally tooking it out, im giving a second chance of geist for its persist since I really love my CMC3 cards...

In fact, my CMC2 creature I used to play was Stoneforge Mystic but it was using a lot of space and i was usually using my mana on something else isntead of equiping creatures. any other thoughts?


Im going to try something like this on my sb

4 Thoughtseize
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Choke

You should also add a Ruric Thar in your NO package.

[Svknoe]

Very nice finish, Gleicher! How was the Aetherling? I am taking the deck to another tournament next weekend, and could could be interested in testing some of the changes.

[pfiremc13]

Any reason the list runs Redcap and Finks but NOT Melira? Seems like an easy 1 of although I know it's fragile.

First you need a sac outlet to make it work

Second it's really hard to assemble a 3-card combo

Third melira is terrible on its own

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Third melira is terrible on its own

I have to agree, hence why I keep Melira in the sideboard with Archmages for noncreature intensive combo.

If you're looking for something with a bit more utility, go with Master Biomancer (turns Veteran Explorers into Nimble Mongooses) or Zameck Guildmage. I prefer Melira simply because, well, she works with persist for probably the cheapest cost.

[Megadeus]

First you need a sac outlet to make it work

Second it's really hard to assemble a 3-card combo

Third melira is terrible on its own

I agree. Especially since I only have 2 Green Sun's Zenith, plus I would need a sac outlet. There are honestly not many games that I have more than 2 dudes on board. Maybe I play differently though..

Like I said, seeing Gleicher do well has really raised my hopes for SCG Nashville. I will be switching up my list this week hopefully, dropping thrun, adding redcap, and adding recurring nitemare over either the second Green Sun, or one of the 5 drops which would go to the board. Also I would like to work Aetherling into my board, probably over the Third Krosan Grip, which I found I only really wanted 2 last week.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I agree. Especially since I only have 2 Green Sun's Zenith, plus I would need a sac outlet. There are honestly not many games that I have more than 2 dudes on board. Maybe I play differently though..

Like I said, seeing Gleicher do well has really raised my hopes for SCG Nashville. I will be switching up my list this week hopefully, dropping thrun, adding redcap, and adding recurring nitemare over either the second Green Sun, or one of the 5 drops which would go to the board. Also I would like to work Aetherling into my board, probably over the Third Krosan Grip, which I found I only really wanted 2 last week.

Same, except instead of SCG Nashville, I've got my sights set on SCG Cincinnati. Still got a ton of grinding to do though.

[civet five]

Two thoughts that came to me while jogging today:
1) anyone tried Genesis recently as an additional way of grinding out longer games? A single Recurring Nightmare often feels difficult to dig for, while Genesis can be Podded or GSZ+suicided (and when you don't need him dead, he's still a 4/4 trampler)
2) anyone tried Primeval Titan + Stage/Depths? I don't play the Jund lists, so I don't know how often fetching Kessig Wolf Run comes into play, but at that point wouldn't Prime Timing for Marit Lage be better?

[MD.Ghost]

Two thoughts that came to me while jogging today:
2) anyone tried Primeval Titan + Stage/Depths? I don't play the Jund lists, so I don't know how often fetching Kessig Wolf Run comes into play, but at that point wouldn't Prime Timing for Marit Lage be better?

Sure if you fetch it with Titan it is better (or win more). The Problem is, that you can't dig for the combo without loam or crop rotation. So you have random useless lands in the deck. With Prime Time you can get both towers, and/or kessig, and/or grove and/or treetop village (depends on your list, most of the time you have 2 utility lands, besides 4 groves). If you resolve a titan you are in a very good spot to win the game - Stage/Depths doesn't matter here and you will struggle with theses lands more often before you enter the "titan stage".

[civet five]

Sure if you fetch it with Titan it is better (or win more). The Problem is, that you can't dig for the combo without loam or crop rotation. So you have random useless lands in the deck. With Prime Time you can get both towers, and/or kessig, and/or grove and/or treetop village (depends on your list, most of the time you have 2 utility lands, besides 4 groves). If you resolve a titan you are in a very good spot to win the game - Stage/Depths doesn't matter here and you will struggle with theses lands more often before you enter the "titan stage".

My main issue is that I encounter games where I simply cannot grind them out without the singleton Recurring Nightmare - MUD variants come to mind as being particularly awful, as do certain Reanimator and Dredge board states. Basically there are situations where Grave Titan ceases to be scary on its own, and in those situations, having something besides Baleful Strix to attack would be nice.

I currently run an Oona in BUG Pod for this reason, as she's blue for FoW, closes games out really quickly, and messes with their deck while doing so, making it harder to come back in any sort of Hellbent situation.

In my Junk list, which is Podless, GSZ-based, I run a Primeval Titan to GSZ into and fetch Volrath's Stronghold, which basically serves as an extra Recurring Nightmare. However, I realized that at the point that I'm grabbing Volrath's Stronghold or Phyrexian Tower, I could just grab Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage and completely break the deadlock with Marit Lage.

Likewise my question about Genesis. He functions as a Volrath's Stronghold or a body, and sometimes I could see that being useful. Less so than Primeval Titan I think, but he does have the advantage of the Stronghold of not taking your draw step.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

My main issue is that I encounter games where I simply cannot grind them out without the singleton Recurring Nightmare - MUD variants come to mind as being particularly awful, as do certain Reanimator and Dredge board states. Basically there are situations where Grave Titan ceases to be scary on its own, and in those situations, having something besides Baleful Strix to attack would be nice.

I currently run an Oona in BUG Pod for this reason, as she's blue for FoW, closes games out really quickly, and messes with their deck while doing so, making it harder to come back in any sort of Hellbent situation.

In my Junk list, which is Podless, GSZ-based, I run a Primeval Titan to GSZ into and fetch Volrath's Stronghold, which basically serves as an extra Recurring Nightmare. However, I realized that at the point that I'm grabbing Volrath's Stronghold or Phyrexian Tower, I could just grab Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage and completely break the deadlock with Marit Lage.

Likewise my question about Genesis. He functions as a Volrath's Stronghold or a body, and sometimes I could see that being useful. Less so than Primeval Titan I think, but he does have the advantage of the Stronghold of not taking your draw step.

You're actually thinking the same way I did when I decided to run both Volrath's Stronghold+Phyrexian Tower and double Creeping Tar Pit: some games require the recursion of value creatures such as Eternal Witness and Thragtusk to outrace the opponent in terms of value, while other games require the quick clock of a man-land or Marit Lage because you're already way ahead of them in terms of value and just need to end it.

As for Genesis, he requires a bit of set up as Swords to Plowshares and Terminus is still a thing: I feel that Recurring Nightmare and Volrath's Stronghold are the better options.

[Megadeus]

My main issue is that I encounter games where I simply cannot grind them out without the singleton Recurring Nightmare - MUD variants come to mind as being particularly awful, as do certain Reanimator and Dredge board states. Basically there are situations where Grave Titan ceases to be scary on its own, and in those situations, having something besides Baleful Strix to attack would be nice.

I currently run an Oona in BUG Pod for this reason, as she's blue for FoW, closes games out really quickly, and messes with their deck while doing so, making it harder to come back in any sort of Hellbent situation.

In my Junk list, which is Podless, GSZ-based, I run a Primeval Titan to GSZ into and fetch Volrath's Stronghold, which basically serves as an extra Recurring Nightmare. However, I realized that at the point that I'm grabbing Volrath's Stronghold or Phyrexian Tower, I could just grab Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage and completely break the deadlock with Marit Lage.

Likewise my question about Genesis. He functions as a Volrath's Stronghold or a body, and sometimes I could see that being useful. Less so than Primeval Titan I think, but he does have the advantage of the Stronghold of not taking your draw step.

That is why I like the Aetherling that Gleicher played. It beats a stalled board, is actually basically unkillable, and is a great defender as well.

[GtF]

Very nice finish, Gleicher! How was the Aetherling? I am taking the deck to another tournament next weekend, and could could be interested in testing some of the changes.

Yeah my keep in that on camera match was really bad. I was rushing to finish the match in time and just made a bad decision there. Probably shoulda kept my first hand.
Anyway I think the deck is as good as ever. It does have a problem with dark depths loam combo and there's not a great way to answer it with creatures since they can make it at the end of your turn. Possible solutions I've considered are:
1. Chord of calling for sower/fleshbag/venser. Chord is also a good card in general but maybe a bit slow for legacy.
2. Some pithing needles to name thespians stage. These would have some added use against other random stuff like jace but don't play well with deed.
3. Ignore it.

I liked fleshbag as a kind of answer to true name (and merit lage if you can fog it for a turn). But it is cuttable.
Aetherling was the only card I didn't board in but I like it as another threat against slower white decks like miracles as an unkillable threat.
You could try cutting the grave Titan in the main and replacing it with aetherling to save space. I'm not sure if that's a good idea though. Usually grave Titan will be better but it also might not matter most of the time.
I liked the maindeck a lot and used every card. There's 61 cards and I don't really feel comfortable cutting any of them.
Only 1 recurring nightmare is fine because with all the brainstorms fetches and podding you can probably see it and you don't need it necessarily.
But yeah the deck is still strong. I don't think a white splash is needed or good, stick to 3 colors. 4 brainstorms was awesome and I am stupid for having argued against it. The sb plan against combo is still good, I beat sneak and show and dredge on the day. I'll definitely run it back at the first opportunity.

[Megadeus]

Sweet! Yeah Im a believer of 4 Brainstorms as well. I have just really liked Fleshbag in my local meta at least, hence why I like it as a MB slot. I havent been running Nitemare, but I will this week. It just seems awesome. I was stuck on last year when I played GB fit I never really used it, so I just dismissed it. Answer to Lage is a bit awkward. Outside of putting in some sort of maybe Loam package in our own board with a wasteland or something... I'm not sure what our best course of action would be there.

Edit: Oh and of course Congrats on the Finish!

[civet five]

Yeah my keep in that on camera match was really bad. I was rushing to finish the match in time and just made a bad decision there. Probably shoulda kept my first hand.
Anyway I think the deck is as good as ever. It does have a problem with dark depths loam combo and there's not a great way to answer it with creatures since they can make it at the end of your turn. Possible solutions I've considered are:
1. Chord of calling for sower/fleshbag/venser. Chord is also a good card in general but maybe a bit slow for legacy.
2. Some pithing needles to name thespians stage. These would have some added use against other random stuff like jace but don't play well with deed.
3. Ignore it.

I liked fleshbag as a kind of answer to true name (and merit lage if you can fog it for a turn). But it is cuttable.
Aetherling was the only card I didn't board in but I like it as another threat against slower white decks like miracles as an unkillable threat.
You could try cutting the grave Titan in the main and replacing it with aetherling to save space. I'm not sure if that's a good idea though. Usually grave Titan will be better but it also might not matter most of the time.
I liked the maindeck a lot and used every card. There's 61 cards and I don't really feel comfortable cutting any of them.
Only 1 recurring nightmare is fine because with all the brainstorms fetches and podding you can probably see it and you don't need it necessarily.
But yeah the deck is still strong. I don't think a white splash is needed or good, stick to 3 colors. 4 brainstorms was awesome and I am stupid for having argued against it. The sb plan against combo is still good, I beat sneak and show and dredge on the day. I'll definitely run it back at the first opportunity.

Sower of Temptation and Phantasmal Image also help, though they aren't permanent solutions.

[pettdan]

Anyway I think the deck is as good as ever. It does have a problem with dark depths loam combo and there's not a great way to answer it with creatures since they can make it at the end of your turn. Possible solutions I've considered are:
1. Chord of calling for sower/fleshbag/venser. Chord is also a good card in general but maybe a bit slow for legacy.
2. Some pithing needles to name thespians stage. These would have some added use against other random stuff like jace but don't play well with deed.
3. Ignore it.


Just to mention a few more alternatives:

Tradewind Rider could be a permanent solution. Sounds a bit far-fetched. Which most answers seem to do. Perhaps it could at some point fit in the meta; it's not horrible against Show and Tell.

Opposition is a possible answer, but it needs some backup if they keep loaming and replaying the combo once every few turns. Perhaps together with Recurring Nightmare + Venser, Shaper Savant / Acidic Slime. And I can't stop thinking the Opposition might prove useful against a whole plethora of fat beast decks (Sneak and Show, MUD, Cloudpost etc). Sorry for being a bit repetitive on that point.

[GtF]

Just to mention a few more alternatives:

Tradewind Rider could be a permanent solution. Sounds a bit far-fetched. Which most answers seem to do. Perhaps it could at some point fit in the meta; it's not horrible against Show and Tell.

Opposition is a possible answer, but it needs some backup if they keep loaming and replaying the combo once every few turns. Perhaps together with Recurring Nightmare + Venser, Shaper Savant / Acidic Slime. And I can't stop thinking the Opposition might prove useful against a whole plethora of fat beast decks (Sneak and Show, MUD, Cloudpost etc). Sorry for being a bit repetitive on that point.

Opposition is one of my favorite cards and is very powerful. The deck might need to play some more token producers if it goes that route. The issue of not being able to tutor for it is pretty annoying though. If only we could afford to splash white for something like academy rector. But I don't think it's possible. It is a pretty solid solution to 20/20 from dark depths since it is legendary so they can't just make a billion of them

[Megadeus]

Opposition is one of my favorite cards and is very powerful. The deck might need to play some more token producers if it goes that route. The issue of not being able to tutor for it is pretty annoying though. If only we could afford to splash white for something like academy rector. But I don't think it's possible. It is a pretty solid solution to 20/20 from dark depths since it is legendary so they can't just make a billion of them

Deranged hermit plus nightmare is pretty good. I think. And those decks are generally pretty slow so it's possible to find the opposition off of a brainstorm.

[waSP]

Don't forget about Gifts in blue. May be a little slower, but you're not going for a quick fix with Opposition.

I could see doing the blue/white splash with Lingering Souls as well as Enlightened Tutor for search. Less green intensive Gifts piles might want Nature's Spiral.

[pfiremc13]

Intuition is better for that purpose.

[waSP]

I'm not convinced by your argument. I can see pros and cons for both.

Gifts
Pros: Card advantage, more lines of play.
Cons: Slower, needs 4 different cards.

Intuition:
Pros: Faster, can get 1 of a 3-of (such as Cabal Therapy).
Cons: Fewer lines of play, no card advantage

If it's about racing to get it in play, both are terrible. Better to just use Enlightened Tutor.

[Megadeus]

Played BUG fit to a 2-1-1 finish tonight. Here is my current list I tried out tonight:
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 SHriekmaw
1 Acidic Slime
1 Grave Titan

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nitemare
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod

1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB:
3 Swan Song
3 Thoughtseize
1 Zur's Weirding
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Notion Thief
2 Krosan Grip
1 Aetherling
1 Toxic Deluge

Round 1 vs Dredge
I've never losta match to Dredge when playing a Nic Fit variant so I was decently confident. Game 1 he gets triple bridge from below and makes like 6 Zombies, I am able to get his bridges off of saccing explorer, but unfortunately I dont find deed and he kills me. Game 2 We both have awkward draws. My opener was like Explorer, Tropical, Scooze, Brainstorm, Therapy and spells. Seemed doable. Unfortunately I brick for a few turns after double brainstorm until I find Deathrite. Luckily he had a very slow start and I was able to keep him off of dredgers with DRS. Game 3 I get a nut hand if I dont die fast with Vet, Scooze, Therapy, and a couple of lands. He mulls to 5, I rip DRS off the top and play it and I just keep him off of dredgers with Scooze and DRS.

1-0

Round 2 vs UB Smallpox Reanimator Pirates Thing
It was awkward. The guy generally plays the same few different creatures but in different shells. He T3 Small Poxes my Strix and one of my lands, then casts reanimate, targetting his Cutpurse something while Im tapped out to make me sacrifice a permanent, my only land. I end up dying because I can't find lands. G2 I get explorer which is great vs him, and end up actually using recurring nightmare to get it back a couple of times to just start podding things like crazy. G2 he Smallpoxes my DRS and land on T2, then next turn reanimates it, but I get enough lands from explorer to get Sower of Temptation and take back my DRS, he never keeps me off of mana and I get grave titan and copy it with Image.

2-0

Draw with a guy into T8 because unfortunately the toilets were busted so they wanted to only do 3 rounds :/

Top 8 vs BUG Delver.
I played poorly and lost. G1 He gets a big board presence and I deed it away, unfortunately he gets Tomb Stalker. I rip deed and Crack it for 8. Sadly he has more deck manipulation than I do and he draws threats with both of us at low life totals and I dont have the answers.

Game 2 was awkward as I brainstorm lock myself out of lands with only 2 on board. He gets a tomb stalker and his delver had knocked me to 12. Stalker hits me to 7 and I have to eWitness back Strix to use as a wall. Unfortunately I forget I have a Deathrite on board so I don't cast Strix and get knocked to 2. He gets DRS down and I have to keep saving mana for my Scooze and DRS to keep his DRS from killing me. Slwoly I get Deed out, ready to crack for 1, but he rips disfigure to kill off my Strix and kill me. I misplayed a few times and it cost me the match. I think this is a very winnable, possibly even favorable, match up. Tombstalker is a bitch, but if I had one more turn I could've gotten out pod and gotten Sower to Take it. I'm willing to say that I definitely misplayed that one though and it cost me. Still have a few more weeklies to test before Nashville though. I'll have about 2 months of playing the deck under my belt by then to have gotten into the groove with it.

I did trade for a Natural order, and we were thinking about maybe a Natural Order Variant? I think I remember people in here trying, or at least talking about it at some point. What was the verdict on that?

[Megadeus]

I'm not convinced by your argument. I can see pros and cons for both.

Gifts
Pros: Card advantage, more lines of play.
Cons: Slower, needs 4 different cards.

Intuition:
Pros: Faster, can get 1 of a 3-of (such as Cabal Therapy).
Cons: Fewer lines of play, no card advantage

If it's about racing to get it in play, both are terrible. Better to just use Enlightened Tutor.

Sorry for the double Post, but how is Intuition not Card Advantage? I mean sure you only get 1 card in hand, but generally you are using some sort of GY engine or something to turn it into card advantage. Otherwise it is just Vampiric Tutor right? Add to the fact that you don't have as much deck building restraint because you don't have to build with a pile of 1 of's that do somewhat similar things seems nice too.

[waSP]

Point 1: Your argument that Intuition is card advantage in the same way as Gifts is self-defeating.

Point 2: Your only restraint is running a singleton Regrowth as most lists already have Eternal Witness. If you think Regrowth is terrible, then you probably fall on the Intuition side of the debate.

I think they're probably both pretty poor. But if you want a creature friendly tutor (i.e. not Diabolic Intent), that's what you're left with.

[pfiremc13]

In tutoring for opposition specifically, intuition is much faster if you run 3 and still faster even if you don't. Gifts gives you another cards which is relevant in different situations.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Intuition is better for finding silver bullets, as you don't have to include Regrowth to go for one to two Eternal Witness or Green Sun's Zeniths or one and one of each and one to two of your bullet. Actually, Intuition is a bit superior if it needs to be used again: Fetching two GSZs and a bullet means that you go grab another two GSZs or two witness or one and one of each more easily than not, especially when backed with Volrath's Stronghold to put "used up" Witnesses back into the library.

Gifts, however, is better for setting up powerful engines, particularly those with graveyard plays. Taking the above, you could go for Green Sun's Zenith, Recurring Nightmare, Eternal Witness, and Thragtusk with one more Eternal Witness in the library.

[pfiremc13]

I agree.

[Megadeus]

You could always get stronghold, loam, and creature. That's a solid pile that in the end, gets you your creature, though it is extremely slow.

[pettdan]

You could always get stronghold, loam, and creature. That's a solid pile that in the end, gets you your creature, though it is extremely slow.

If you choose to play Stronghold, you can Intuition for anything together with Stronghold and Witness. I've considered Loam too but can't figure out a good couple of cards to play along with it. Brainstorm obviously and fetches but that's not enough I think. Liliana works but not well enough to motivate it.

On another topic, basic deck building, I intend to continue my deck building efforts by focusing on what pod chains I want to run. First in general (aggro, combo, control), and then possibly vs specific matchups. Perhaps this is obvious and what everyone is already doing.

[Megadeus]

My thought process with pod is that I would like to have some sort of line of play for all sorts of situations. The only situation that I seem to be having difficulty with is when my opponent has an active planes walker

[GtF]

My thought process with pod is that I would like to have some sort of line of play for all sorts of situations. The only situation that I seem to be having difficulty with is when my opponent has an active planes walker

Planeswalkers are a big problem for this deck, Jace much moreso than Liliana. However, they're only really bad if they come down early or are backed up with defensive measures to keep us from building board position (like counterspells for pod or setting up terminus/entreat with jace). I'm not worried about having a 1 to 1 answer for planeswalkers when I have an active pod, because that active pod will compete with and likely beat that planeswalker with its card advantage. In a pinch, murderous redcap can assist a 1/1 to take out a jace.
The problem comes when the walker lands before an active pod is in the mix. Baleful strixes,veteran explorers and deathrite shamans just aren't too good at attacking as it turns out.
In my experience the best way to handle them is pre-emptive therapies and going about your own plan of establishing a board presence as soon as you can. If you wanted you could SB maelstrom pulse but if you shave too many creatures for it, you'll be reducing the power of birthing pod, and I personally don't have room with the dedicated combo board set up the way I do (which has been highly effective).
However, a poddible option I've heard mentioned is Vengevine - It attacks them well and unlike phyrexian revoker, it's not a card you are afraid to pod away. I could see it having some profitable returns as even a 1-of pod target out of the SB. It does get realy embarrased by true-name nemesis though.

[Megadeus]

That is an interesting one actually. I kinda like it, though it seems difficult to actually trigger its return ability

[jbone2016]

Planeswalkers are a big problem for this deck, Jace much moreso than Liliana. However, they're only really bad if they come down early or are backed up with defensive measures to keep us from building board position (like counterspells for pod or setting up terminus/entreat with jace). I'm not worried about having a 1 to 1 answer for planeswalkers when I have an active pod, because that active pod will compete with and likely beat that planeswalker with its card advantage. In a pinch, murderous redcap can assist a 1/1 to take out a jace.
The problem comes when the walker lands before an active pod is in the mix. Baleful strixes,veteran explorers and deathrite shamans just aren't too good at attacking as it turns out.
In my experience the best way to handle them is pre-emptive therapies and going about your own plan of establishing a board presence as soon as you can. If you wanted you could SB maelstrom pulse but if you shave too many creatures for it, you'll be reducing the power of birthing pod, and I personally don't have room with the dedicated combo board set up the way I do (which has been highly effective).
However, a poddible option I've heard mentioned is Vengevine - It attacks them well and unlike phyrexian revoker, it's not a card you are afraid to pod away. I could see it having some profitable returns as even a 1-of pod target out of the SB. It does get realy embarrased by true-name nemesis though.

Any thought to Hexmage?

[pfiremc13]

How would you tutor for it?


What do you guys think about a sac-heavy nic fit with 3 diabolic intent and 3 kitchen finks?

[from Cairo]

The deck can/has SB'd some number of Pithing Needle in the past, which is good against Planeswalkers and Thespian Stage. It's not horrible against some combo decks too - Sneak Attack, Elves, etc.

[pfiremc13]

Is revoker not just better?

They both die to deed, which could be an issue depending on the deck you're playing

[GtF]

Is revoker not just better?

They both die to deed, which could be an issue depending on the deck you're playing


I guess needles could still be ok because you often board out deeds in the matchups where you'd board in the needles.

[Megadeus]

Decks that you board needles in for have removal and definitely aren't boarding it out. Needle doesn't die to STP.

[pfiremc13]

Good point.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Another point I'd like to make is that Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker both do different yet similar things.

Revoker can stop Lion's Eye Diamond and Heritage Druid.

Pithing Needle can stop Wasteland and Thespian Stage.

Both overlap a lot in terms of what they can or cannot stop, but its the few differences make both relevant in certain matchups.

[Megadeus]

This is true. Revoker is better vs combo. I think I like needle though as it is more for the control match up.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Agreed: which is why I run 1 of each in the board. ^_^

[pfiremc13]

In what combo matchups would you actually side in revoker though?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

In what combo matchups would you actually side in revoker though?

Elves! (stops manadorks), Sneak and Show (stops Griselbrand and Sneak Attack; overlaps with Pithing Needle in this case), and anything with artifact mana (notably Lion's Eye Diamond), I-Painter (stops Grindstone and Welder; again overlaps with Needle here).

Pithing Needle I'd maybe bring it in against Burn (Barbarian Ring), Dredge (Cephalid Coliseum), and definitely Lands.

[pfiremc13]

I would bring in a card just to fight one other card unless the card I was fighting was central to the deck.

Otherwise I agree.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I would bring in a card just to fight one other card unless the card I was fighting was central to the deck.

Otherwise I agree.

Yeah: I hear ya on your first point. Actually thinking of replacing the one Needle with another Revoker as, shockingly enough, I forgot the Jace 2.0 in my list can just bounce away the Marit Lage token.

[Megadeus]

How often is your opponent dumb enough to main phase his combo though? Seems meh. I personally think I will be on a maelstrom pulse this upcoming week in the board, not only as a walker killer, but I also struggled vs Tombstalker.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How often is your opponent dumb enough to main phase his combo though? Seems meh. I personally think I will be on a maelstrom pulse this upcoming week in the board, not only as a walker killer, but I also struggled vs Tombstalker.

True ... honestly though that's a bit of dilemma I'm facing. Phyrexian Revoker is ultimately better against other forms of combo, but the existence of Stage Depths in Lands makes this a tricky swap.

Blargh! Maybe this could work?

3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
3x Thoughtseize
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle

[Megadeus]

I think that lands is small enough percentage of the meta that you honestly just not even care about the deck.

[civet five]

Played in my LGS's Monthly this afternoon, going 2-2 drop. I want to focus on sideboarding since I really struggled a bunch. My deckliist (http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/1080956) is pretty standard for BUG Pod, though I maindeck the third Deed because I play in the most Goblin-infested metas around.

Round 1 against Doomsday ANT: 1-2.
In: 4 Force of Will, 2 Envelop, 3 Riptide Pilferer, 1 Glen Elendra Archmage.
Out: 3 Pernicious Deed, 1 Sower of Temptation, 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Murderous Redcap, 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Shriekmaw

Round 2 against Goblins: 0-2
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Cabal Therapy

Round 3 against DnT: 2-0
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Acidic Slime
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Cabal Therapy

Round 4 against Elves: 2-1
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 2 Envelop, 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
Out: 1 Sower of Temptation, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Eternal Witness, 2 Baleful Strix

Overall my big struggle was figuring out what to take out without messing with the Pod chaining too much. The biggest surprise to me was getting clobbered by Goblins. He just recovered from Deed way better than I did, and Chieftan's really messes with math. I really liked Uktabi Orangutan maindeck, and I also wish there was a way to fit another Golgari Charm in the 75.

How would you guys have sideboarded my matchups?

[Megadeus]

Testing today. Went to a store with a less developed meta so it was full of shitty budget combo decks. I did pretty well, even though it was against like belcher and high tide. I am actually liking the needle idea

[GtF]

Played in my LGS's Monthly this afternoon, going 2-2 drop. I want to focus on sideboarding since I really struggled a bunch. My deckliist (http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/1080956) is pretty standard for BUG Pod, though I maindeck the third Deed because I play in the most Goblin-infested metas around.

Round 1 against Doomsday ANT: 1-2.
In: 4 Force of Will, 2 Envelop, 3 Riptide Pilferer, 1 Glen Elendra Archmage.
Out: 3 Pernicious Deed, 1 Sower of Temptation, 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Grave Titan, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Murderous Redcap, 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Shriekmaw

Round 2 against Goblins: 0-2
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Cabal Therapy

Round 3 against DnT: 2-0
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Acidic Slime
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Cabal Therapy

Round 4 against Elves: 2-1
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 2 Envelop, 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
Out: 1 Sower of Temptation, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Eternal Witness, 2 Baleful Strix

Overall my big struggle was figuring out what to take out without messing with the Pod chaining too much. The biggest surprise to me was getting clobbered by Goblins. He just recovered from Deed way better than I did, and Chieftan's really messes with math. I really liked Uktabi Orangutan maindeck, and I also wish there was a way to fit another Golgari Charm in the 75.

How would you guys have sideboarded my matchups?


When I am boarding out creatures I'll often board out 1 pod and 1 recurring nightmare, since you have fewer ways to make it good and you're kind of playing a different type of game vs. combo decks.
Goblins actually seems like a rough matchup. I haven't ever played vs it but the card advantage they have plus the high casting costs making deed and decay somewhat ineffective seems scary. I'd probably leave in the therapy though since your best bet is probably to hit the high impact spells (warchief/ringleader/matron/seige-gang) before they get a chance to play them off the lands from veteran explorer.

[Megadeus]

Goblins has always been a rough match up. If your meta has allot of goblins I suggest engineered plague

[pettdan]

Played in my LGS's Monthly this afternoon, going 2-2 drop. I want to focus on sideboarding since I really struggled a bunch. My deckliist (http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/1080956) is pretty standard for BUG Pod, though I maindeck the third Deed because I play in the most Goblin-infested metas around.

[...]

Round 2 against Goblins: 0-2
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Fleshbag Marauder, 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Cabal Therapy

[...]

Overall my big struggle was figuring out what to take out without messing with the Pod chaining too much. The biggest surprise to me was getting clobbered by Goblins. He just recovered from Deed way better than I did, and Chieftan's really messes with math. I really liked Uktabi Orangutan maindeck, and I also wish there was a way to fit another Golgari Charm in the 75.

How would you guys have sideboarded my matchups?


When I am boarding out creatures I'll often board out 1 pod and 1 recurring nightmare, since you have fewer ways to make it good and you're kind of playing a different type of game vs. combo decks.
Goblins actually seems like a rough matchup. I haven't ever played vs it but the card advantage they have plus the high casting costs making deed and decay somewhat ineffective seems scary. I'd probably leave in the therapy though since your best bet is probably to hit the high impact spells (warchief/ringleader/matron/seige-gang) before they get a chance to play them off the lands from veteran explorer.

Regarding sideboarding vs goblins. I agree on leaving Therapy in. Goblin Ringleader is what gives them the ability to recover after a Deed, so I'd agree on not boarding Therapy out and using the second naming of Cabal Therapy to hit Ringleader just before the opponent reaches 4 lands or 4 counters on an Aether Vial to increase chances of hitting one. Giving them lands off Explorer also seems like a questionable solution [edit: I meant to say it's a daring play] unless possibly if you've gotten rid of Ringleader already, so boarding one Explorer out seems right.

I'd leave Fleshbag Marauder in the sideboard and keep Eternal Witness in the main. Using Eternal Witness to reuse Abrupt Decay or Pernicous Deed is good. Having the opponent sacrifice a creature of his/her choice is rather useless, they will often have lots of tokens or small expendable creatures available.

It seems very likely that Sower of Temptation will get killed by a cycled Gempalm Incinerator so it may not be worth a 4 mana investment. Not sure about Oona. Oona's ability is neutralized by Goblin Sharpshooter and she is bounced by Karakas (sometimes played in a white splash?). Grave Titan seems like a better pod target. I think I would board in Acidic Slime instead, to get rid of Vial (or a boarded Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage) in order to prevent swarming and to possibly shut them off lands with Recurring Nightmare once Deed has cleared the board.

So, to conclude I'd probably board like this:
In: 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Acidic Slime
Out: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 Sower of Temptation

[MrIggins]

For those who are trying to get them, Starcity Games has a Korean Veteran Explorer in stock. Get it fast!

[Megadeus]

For those who are trying to get them, Starcity Games has a Korean Veteran Explorer in stock. Get it fast!

Was like, I'll pick up a set! 20 dollars each? I'll pick up some shock lands...