[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Svknoe]

@Qweerios: It's great that Junk Pod also has a good combo match up. I feared that the lack of blue would make combo a bit to difficult.

@Nils Gutiérrez: Congratulations on doing well with the list! It looks interesting.

I agree that TNN does not fit into BUG Pod. Racing for 3 a turn is not a much needed function in the deck.

I made the change of cutting the fourth Veteran Explorer for the fourth Deathrite Shaman. I think that it is correct. My most recent list is:

4 Baleful Strix
1 Acidic Slime
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thoughtseize

I won a small tournament 3-0 with it yesterday, beating ANT, Maverick and Reanimator. Today I won a 32 person tournament with the same list.
My matches were, in order: Miracles, Dredge, Shardless BUG, ID, ID. 3-0-2 Top8: Elves, Miracles, UWR Delver.

At one point I managed to beat Progenitus, with me at 10 with Strix and Witness, versus his 16 life. It was very close, with me ending the game at 1 life. Kitchen Finks and Phantasmal Image did work.

[blindspotxxx]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12965&iddeck=95127

Deck gets another top finish. I have already built this deck and i find it powerful. Only issues are some inconsistencies.

[Svknoe]

Very nice! Swan Song together with Riptide Pilferer seems like it has to be problematic.

[GtF]

Very nice! Swan Song together with Riptide Pilferer seems like it has to be problematic.

I tried out a list with the 3 veteran explorers yesterday at a small tournament and it seemed to work ok. I did have one game where my land got wasted and deathrite killed vs BUG but it's not even clear explorer would have helped in that situation. Any further experience testing with 3 explorers?

[UseLess]

Thanks for the replies all. I tested yesterday again and apart from bad luck and bad plays my list is getting better everytime I tweak it. I got a couple of questions more regarding SB strategies, creature packages and how you beat combo 'favorably' after sideboarding.

1. Is 6 counterspells really enough? I find myself running low already with only 7/8. Then again, I do not run a thoughtseize.
2. How has a single thoughtseize in de SB been for people? Do you use it for both control or combo?
3. Is beating combo just a combination of discard + counters, or is there something more going on? I noticed that I boarded out part of the Pod package to make room for all the counters (I played vs Sneak and Breach, Painter and Omnitell).
4. If I run a 4-drop package of Glen elendra archmage and redcap main, and another archmage in the side, would a sower of temptation or a venser be better suited in the mainboard as third 4-drop?
5. My 3-drops are a witness and true-name nemesis (I do not play recurring nightmare and hence wood elves seems very mediocre). Is kitchen finks really the best additional 3-drop?
6. While I agree that Sigarda is not nice to draw, she is the best 5-drop I can think of. Acidic slime doesn't fit my build/play style and I can't think of any other very good 5-drop. Any ideas?

Liliana was very good overall in testing her. I would like 2 of her somewhere in main and SB, together with 4 Abrupt decay. Currently I'm thinking of 2/1 split in both MB and SB. How has the lack of abrupt decays been for other Pod players? I notice most people play 1 or 2 somewhere in MB/SB.

[MD.Ghost]

@UseLess/BUG Pod
1. My current sideboard is 2 Flusterstorm, 4 Force of Will, 1 Negate which works good so far.
2. I also play with 1 Thoughtseize and it helps to have access to more active spells. Every Comboplayer know how to play around some counters, so you aren't save with only some blue defense in your hand. Against Miracle i also board out the VExplorer+CTherapy Package and add 1 Thoughtseize along with some Counters.
3. Yeah you have to board out some stuff which depends on the combo you face. Birthing Pod is really slow if you fight combo decks and you only need pod if you managed to survive long enough and gain control over the game. I like to splitt my answers to combo, so Counter (see above) + Discard (1 TS, 4 CT) + Creatures (2 Clique, 1 Archmage, 1 Venser) + Walkers (1 Liliana, sometimes 1 Jace)
4. I use the same 4-drop Maindeck package as Skvnoe, Archmage, Redcap, Sower which feels very good so far. My sideboard includes a 1off Venser.
5. Finks and Witness are both very good. As others mentioned True-Name Nemesis isn't good enough in Pod. I use 1 Vendillion Clique in the last slot. But you can also chose between Bone Shredder, Viridian Shaman, Wood Elves or Stuff like Fleshbag Marauder, Hag Hedge-Mage etc. - but yes, besides Finks and Witness BUG hasn't good stuff. (with Junk you can also use Harmonic Sliver and Orzhov Pontiff)
6. I got some nice runs with The Mimeoplasm as a 5 drop (especially if you shot one down with a big Redcap), but my current build only runs 1 Shriekmaw and 1 Thragtusk.

@Liliana: I also included a 1off at maindeck, because she is very flexible against Creatures and reducing Combo and Control Hands, but sometimes double Black isn't so easy to achieve.
@Decay: I also play 2 maindeck, but no additional copy at sideboard (but 2 Engineered Explosives). Decay can be very good, but it is also only a single target spell. For single targets we also have some nice Creatures and Pod+Brainstorm to find the stuff, which is one of the reasons most maindecks only run 1-2 Decays and 2 Deeds and a few other sideboard cards.

[Svknoe]

I tried out a list with the 3 veteran explorers yesterday at a small tournament and it seemed to work ok. I did have one game where my land got wasted and deathrite killed vs BUG but it's not even clear explorer would have helped in that situation. Any further experience testing with 3 explorers?

I think that it is very hard to properly evaluate the 3/4 split between Deathrite Shaman and Veteran Explorer. I have played 4 Deathrite over about 20 matches now, and been happy with it. I want to draw Deathrite more often than I want Explorer. Deathrite is often the better turn 1 play, barring Cabal Therapy. The Delver decks have gotten a bit more evasive lately, making Veteran Explorer a little bit less effective of a moat.

@Useless

1. I have been impressed with Envelop over a wide range of match ups, and I am considering playing a third one. I do think that the 6 counterspells with my current suit of support for the anti combo plan is enough to have favourable post board games against combo.

2. It's okay. I find that Riptide Pilferer often works best in combination with other discard, making a 5th discard spell nice to have. I use it against combo and Miracles.

3. My boarding versus Sneak and Show is something like this:

In:
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thoughtseize

Out:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Acidic Slime
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
2 others, perhaps an explorer

The Pod chain generally stops at 4, and most of it is gone. Make sure to keep at least 2 three drops so that the chain isn't broken if you draw one three drop.

Most of the time, beating combo is a matter of slowing them down with counters and discard, and then locking them out of the game. The deck doesn't have a great clock. Therefore I think that Riptide Pilferer and Glen Elendra Archmage are crucial for beating Show and Tell and Storm. Many of my main deck creatures are also very good against different combo decks. Sower crushes Sneak and Show, Acidic Slime is fantastic against Omnitell, Phantasmal Image is great against Sneak and Show as well as Reanimator and Scavenging ooze is crucial for the Dredge and Reanimator match ups, as well as being good against Storm. Omnitell is the easiest of them to beat, it may be my best match up overall. I regularly win on the draw with 5 cards. Storm is the most difficult of them. I have never lost a tournament match against Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Omnitell or Dredge (about 20 matches in total).

4. Yes. I prefer Sower main, but I guess that Venser is fine too. Having three four drops main is important. The Pod chain is far too fragile with less than three at any point on the curve except the end of it.

5. Kitchens Finks is the three drop I Pod for the most. It's excellent at stalling. But more importantly, it is a resilient 3 drop. A single Lightning Bolt won't stop you from podding to 4 the next turn. You can even Pod to 4 twice. Wood Elves is mediocre. I am trying out Fleshbag Maruader in its stead. Witness is good, but I prefer to save it until I need something specific. TNN seems very bad, as it doesn't offer anything to the game plan. By the time Grave Titan comes rumbling in, another 3/1 is irrelevant. More importantly, it doesn't offer any advantage when you are going through the Pod chain.

6. I would not play Sigarda in BUG. Having uncastable cards is not good, and you will lose many games to it. Margins are slim, and another dead draw is too costly. I also want all of my creatures to be good with Pod. Sigarda doesn't provide value when you Pod her away for Grave Titan. I want preferably want every step of the Pod chain to provide an immediate solution a wide range of problems. Thragtusk for a race, Shriekmaw to kill important threats and Acidic Slime to destroy any problematic permanent. Initially I thought that Acidic Slime was not good enough, but it is.

I have not tried Liliana. Abrupt Decay is a good, flexible answer. I would like another one main, but I think that all other cards in the deck are more important than the second Decay. I seldom want to draw more than 1 each game.

[Windmill]

Hello Nic Fit players. I am a Merfolk player. Someone in my small local meta is going to be playing this (with pod, no blue). It looks like a nightmare match-up to me. Have you ever lost to Merfolk, and if so, how/why? I want to figure out how to sideboard against this. I am sure that TNN is going to be key here. How well do you deal with a T4 TNN that is equipped with a Jitte? So far, that is the best idea that I have. I'd really appreciate any help, I can splash if need be. Cheers

[Svknoe]

It is probably going to be a nightmare match up. TNN with Jitte can often be managed. I think that the most dangerous thing Merfolk can do, is the quickest possible kill with force back up for Pernicious Deed.

[Windmill]

It is probably going to be a nightmare match up. TNN with Jitte can often be managed. I think that the most dangerous thing Merfolk can do, is the quickest possible kill with force back up for Pernicious Deed.
I appreciate the brutal honesty! That changes how I was planning to sideboard.

They are going to be running G/B/W/R. What is the red for? And what gameplan/win condition do you think they'll aim for against me? I'm trying to picture how this will play out.

[UseLess]

Based on all the fast replies (thanks again!) I came up with the following list that I will be testing when I my card orders have arrived. I really liked the Mimeoplasm as suggestion, so I'm going to test him instead of Sigarda. Had seen the card before but back then it was not interesting enough and now I had forgotten about it.

Mainboard:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 the Mimeoplasm
1 Consecrated Sphinx

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith

21 Lands

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
2 Swan Song
1 Negate
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay

I also made sure to have some envelop, shriekmaw and acidic slime so I can shift around a bit with some card choices. Regarding True-Name Nemesis, I like the card so far. While it has no direct EtB effect, it is a rather diverse card. First of all, I wouldn't directly look it up with Pod, but it is just a very solid 3-drop on its own. Since I do not play Grave Titan (I prefer the Sphinx) the 3 damage actually matters for my deck. However, if you do Pod it, it is the most solid ground blocker and can pretty much function as a lightning bolt in your next turn, before continuing the Pod chain. While it might not kill creatures upon EtB, it can deal some damage to players/planeswalkers before podding it away. Since it pretty much cannot be killed, you are assured to be able to pod again. Finally, the card is blue and thus pitches to FoW. If I compare this list to wood elves, which would grant me another basic, I prefer the True-Name. I hope to have all the cards next Thursday so I can start playing this list!

[GtF]

Based on all the fast replies (thanks again!) I came up with the following list that I will be testing when I my card orders have arrived. I really liked the Mimeoplasm as suggestion, so I'm going to test him instead of Sigarda. Had seen the card before but back then it was not interesting enough and now I had forgotten about it.

Mainboard:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 the Mimeoplasm
1 Consecrated Sphinx

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith

21 Lands

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
2 Swan Song
1 Negate
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay

I also made sure to have some envelop, shriekmaw and acidic slime so I can shift around a bit with some card choices. Regarding True-Name Nemesis, I like the card so far. While it has no direct EtB effect, it is a rather diverse card. First of all, I wouldn't directly look it up with Pod, but it is just a very solid 3-drop on its own. Since I do not play Grave Titan (I prefer the Sphinx) the 3 damage actually matters for my deck. However, if you do Pod it, it is the most solid ground blocker and can pretty much function as a lightning bolt in your next turn, before continuing the Pod chain. While it might not kill creatures upon EtB, it can deal some damage to players/planeswalkers before podding it away. Since it pretty much cannot be killed, you are assured to be able to pod again. Finally, the card is blue and thus pitches to FoW. If I compare this list to wood elves, which would grant me another basic, I prefer the True-Name. I hope to have all the cards next Thursday so I can start playing this list!

I'd strongly encourage playing a Scavenging Ooze in the maindeck. Just playing one will dramatically increase your game 1 percentage against stuff like dredge and reanimator. It's also just a great card to draw and play later in the game, or be able to pod into when you want something huge and only have a 1 drop. It also hoses punishing fire and can take a RUG player off threshold. It's just great overall.

[Chatto]

So I was thinking of playing Nic Fit again after abandoning it for a couple of years... Seems like there are quiet a lot of variations to choose between. Blue has also 'infested' this archetype :tongue: (and with some impressive results I might add :smile:) I don't own any expensive Blue cards (never have, maybe some day), and was thinking about Junk Pod. Do you guys have any advice? I saw some nice lists down the line, but really could use a crash-course to get up-to-speed.

Thank you in advance.

[benofzongo]

I'm currently running punishing fit but want to try out BUG-Pod. This may be something of a noob question, but do some of you with more experience with this version have any guidelines on when you do/don't use the phyrexian mana mode on the pod (both for casting and activation)? I assume it's almost entirely situational, but I can imagine myself getting greedy (either for mana or life) and overdoing it one way or the other.
Thanks.

[GtF]

I'm currently running punishing fit but want to try out BUG-Pod. This may be something of a noob question, but do some of you with more experience with this version have any guidelines on when you do/don't use the phyrexian mana mode on the pod (both for casting and activation)? I assume it's almost entirely situational, but I can imagine myself getting greedy (either for mana or life) and overdoing it one way or the other.
Thanks.

I find myself using phyrexian mana most of the time when it comes to playing and activating pod. In general, legacy is a format of big swings, so paying a few life points to get pod going earlier, or leave up mana to do something else (brainstorm, cabal therapy, activate deathrite, activate glen elendra, just to name a few possibilities) is usually worth it. There are of course situations where it's better to use mana, but you'll probably be able to figure those out pretty easily. In general, if you run up against a deck where paying extra life on pod is really bad, then the pod itself is probably not at its best either.

[Nils Gutiérrez]

Hi people! Have you seen the legacy kikipod deck by Drew Levin in scg? I haven't seen it because i'm not a premium user, but if you are take a look, (and pass the list here :p)http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28085_Kiki-Pod-In-Legacy.html

[MrShine]

Thinking of sleeving up the deck for a change of pace, but I've got 3 questions:

1) How essential to the [BUG] deck is the 4 Strix?

As far as I can tell their purpose is to
- Come down early to block / eat removal (TRADE)
- Draw a card through the Pod chain (Value)
- Pitch to FOW post board (U count)

It seems to me like its something that could be trimmed down to 3 copies, or even cut completely, for a couple more green creatures + GSZ.

Admittedly, I haven't started testing the deck extensively yet, so I don't have the play experience to lend any insight; just trying to figure out if the card is sort of a default that people are just running or if its really a sleeper MVP that no one's really talking about.

2) @ 3-Drops: Why not 2 Finks instead of the Wood Elves? Finks is insane vs Delver variants, and like you said has huge value in the Pod chains as he replaces himself.

3) How good is Phantasmal Image really? Is it just a flex thing or is there some purpose he serves? Copying Titans or even Finks seems sweet but since the legend rule change I don't see it doing all that much outside of just being more value. I guess that's the point?

Thanks in advance! Grats on your success with the deck Svknoe

[Svknoe]

1) You are correct about the purpose of Baleful Strix. The deck often needs to slow the game down a bit, and Strix is phenomenal at blocking. It is also makes the Griselbrand match up a lot better. I think that it is an important card in the deck. I want it in most match ups. I don't like them that much against Deathblade and Storm, but that may be about it.

2) I have thought about the second Finks, but I have not tried it yet. My main concern is losing the flexibility that different creatures offer. I will be looking to try it. So far i have tried Wood Elves and Fleshbag Maurauder and I have been pleased with neither.

3) Phantasmal Image main purpose is flexibility. I generally don't run it out as soon as possible, but it rather fixes a lot a problems. There are a few situations that I have noted it being especially useful. Versus Miracles and combo it locks up the game completely as a second Glen Elendra Archmage. It copies Griselbrand, which often wins me the game. In a tight race, for instance versus Tombstalker or a couple of TNN, copying Finks and persisting into a Thragtusk generally gains enough life to win.

Thank you! Both me and GtF have been very successful with the same list.

[GtF]

I would say Baleful Strix is indeed a sleeper MVP. It's so inconspicuously good that it doesn't get talked about much. It smooths out draws, keeps you from dying to a fast aggro start, functions geat with pod (and recurring nightmare). There are no green creatures I can think of (or any color for that matter) that can do what it does. Coiling Oracle seems like it's similar, but the fact that it trades with nothing while strix trades with everything makes it pretty different. I think cutting one might be ok, but I definitely wouldn't cut all of them.

For the 3 drop problem, I finally get around to trying out Deceiver Exarch. Running an MD Viridian Shaman is another option I did for a while and it was ok, though I could see it being awkward sometimes with strix and pod.

[MrShine]

Thanks for the [quick] responses. I reckon I'm just going to put together the latest list you guys have and start testing it out and see how I feel. I can see Exarch being good; getting to Pod twice is no joke. Strix > Exarch > Thrun/Archmage... Spicy. It can also untap a land if you need, don't forget that. Is it strictly better than Pestermite here? 4 toughness is relevant.

I like your point about Image being a second Archmage; giving it persist is sweet, Finks/Thragtusk double feature is crazy haha.

I can also see having Exarch out, podding away a 1 drop, into Image (on Exarch) straight into a 4 drop. Cue maniacal laughter...

EDIT - having played Modern Melira Pod, would it be crazy to suggest trying out Chord of Calling? We generate so much mana w/ Explorer that it seems pretty castable, although GSZ does allow us to ramp more effectively in the early turns. Pretty sure the two would be competing for slots. Upside to Chord being we can get any colour creature instant speed.

[Svknoe]

Exarch seems a little weak to me, since its not a good card without Pod. I have never tried it though, so I may be wrong.

Chord of Calling seems a little but crazy. If you have enough creatures to cast it for something like x=4 or 5, I think that you have probably won the game already.

[tadiou]

Exarch seems a little weak to me, since its not a good card without Pod. I have never tried it though, so I may be wrong.

Chord of Calling seems a little but crazy. If you have enough creatures to cast it for something like x=4 or 5, I think that you have probably won the game already.

Situationally it's an OK card vs Emrakul & Griselbrand in the sense that you can tap it down. It's much better with pod, but pretty good by itself.

[DireLemming]

Pestermite trades with Delver in a pinch, while we have enough ground walls.

[Rackhamm]

Hello everyone,

I'm a modern player looking to get into legacy and Nic Fit (pronounced nice or nick?) was recommended to me as I'm primarily a Melira pod player: I have a few of the staples and enjoy the toolbox one-of aspect of the deck. I have always wanted to play with GSZ.

Legacy seems to have 100 archetypes with 100 iterations of each and the meta looks to be very broad and putting all of the possibilities in your mind when building your first deck seems a completely overwhelming task. I've got several questions but to start with:

1) BUG seems to be the go-to deck. Can a junk pod list get by? I don't expect to try for any GP top 8 but would like to be able to have a chance at local tournaments and hold my own in for-fun games. It seems that nic fit is a deck that should be very tunable to your meta.
2) I'm willing to buy in and get the expensive staples but I stick to a strict monthly budget. Would it make more sense to go for things like bayou first or go ahead and start grabbing things like Stoneforge + package, therapy, rector + package first and just use shocks in the meantime? Seeing the spikes in modern and some legacy cards I don't want to miss the boat on anything that's obvious to the community but I don't see due to being new to the format.
3) Everyone seems so in-the-know on these forums that a lot of base legacy and base meta info is taken for granted. I've read that the legacy meta is sort of cyclical where decks rise and fall in popularity and success depending on meta and preparedness. If this is accurate, where is nic fit on this spectrum? Can you even compare "nic fit" as an archetype to other decks that may not have so many variations?

[GtF]

What I meant to say in my last post is that I was going to try Exarch, not that I'd tried it already. It doesn't seem good enough to me but I figure I should give it a shot.


Hello everyone,

I'm a modern player looking to get into legacy and Nic Fit (pronounced nice or nick?) was recommended to me as I'm primarily a Melira pod player: I have a few of the staples and enjoy the toolbox one-of aspect of the deck. I have always wanted to play with GSZ.

Legacy seems to have 100 archetypes with 100 iterations of each and the meta looks to be very broad and putting all of the possibilities in your mind when building your first deck seems a completely overwhelming task. I've got several questions but to start with:

1) BUG seems to be the go-to deck. Can a junk pod list get by? I don't expect to try for any GP top 8 but would like to be able to have a chance at local tournaments and hold my own in for-fun games. It seems that nic fit is a deck that should be very tunable to your meta.
2) I'm willing to buy in and get the expensive staples but I stick to a strict monthly budget. Would it make more sense to go for things like bayou first or go ahead and start grabbing things like Stoneforge + package, therapy, rector + package first and just use shocks in the meantime? Seeing the spikes in modern and some legacy cards I don't want to miss the boat on anything that's obvious to the community but I don't see due to being new to the format.
3) Everyone seems so in-the-know on these forums that a lot of base legacy and base meta info is taken for granted. I've read that the legacy meta is sort of cyclical where decks rise and fall in popularity and success depending on meta and preparedness. If this is accurate, where is nic fit on this spectrum? Can you even compare "nic fit" as an archetype to other decks that may not have so many variations?

1) I think Junk pod is definitely fine. Some people on the thread have advocated for it, and also for various jund flavors of nic fit, with punishing fire, burning wish for scapeshift, or just general good value cards. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I haven't tried the other versions in depth because I've been very happy with the BUG pod version, so I haven't really had a good reason to switch, but that doesn't mean other versions aren't good too.
2) Yeah I would say get the spells first and the lands last, since you can still play some games with shocklands, but if you don't have cabal therapy, for instance, the deck really won't function as it's supposed to.
3) I feel like the cycle in the legacy metagame is more due to the fact that a lot of people have one legacy deck and the scg circuit, for instance, travels around the country. So when it gets to an area where people have a lot of combo decks, it's a "combo" metagame. But the metagame is really determined by geography. In last week's Seattle open, a bunch of people played Aluren. Is that because Aluren is a great metagame choice? Maybe, or maybe it's because a bunch of people in Seattle have an Aluren deck they like to play. That's my impression of the cyclical legacy metagame.
That said, Nic Fit in general tends to beat up on fair decks like delver and stoneforge type brews and lose to fast combo decks. The idea is with veteran explorer, you're just playing threats that are bigger than what a traditional fair deck is set up to deal with. Big threats don't matter to combo decks though. The exception is you generally have a good game against graveyard-based combo because of deathrites and GSZ + Scavenging Ooze (assuming you play those cards which...you should) and anything trying to blood moon you because of all your basics. That's the general metagame position of Nic Fit.

[tadiou]

I'm a modern player looking to get into legacy and Nic Fit (pronounced nice or nick?) was recommended to me as I'm primarily a Melira pod player: I have a few of the staples and enjoy the toolbox one-of aspect of the deck. I have always wanted to play with GSZ.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5nbZMnEX-M

The Untouchables - Nic Fit (1981)

Nic as in Nicotine. Not entirely sure how it gets its name, but, I'm one for good names.

[Shoreline]

Been following this thread for about 2 years now and want to share my current list. It's not very playtested and the only Legacy tournament i've played this year was the Legacy Side event @GP Gothenburg. I Went 3-1-1 loosing to ANT and drawing to Rock, randomly stomped 2 Esper decks and U/B Tezz. Anyway here is the list.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sigarda, host of herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Also i've been trying out a Red version of the deck wich stomps all TNN decks and actually has a fair shot preboard vs Reanimator/SNT decks. Here's that list aswell.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Rakdos's Return

4 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green sun's Zenith

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded foothills
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 taiga
2 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run

Innocent blood has really impressed me. It gets rid of Marit Large, it kills vet, it wrecks TNN, it can be really effective vs reanimator. And sometimes u even get to kill an Emrakul with it. HUGE Card.

[Megadeus]

I agree that Innocent Blood is a very solid card. Also I cant ever say no to a deck running Broodmate Dragon. I havent played the deck in awhile, but I always found Huntmaster to be quite underwhelming... How has it fared for you? I know in the Scape variants it is great to buy time, but in mid range versions of the deck it never felt amazing.

[Shoreline]

I agree that Innocent Blood is a very solid card. Also I cant ever say no to a deck running Broodmate Dragon. I havent played the deck in awhile, but I always found Huntmaster to be quite underwhelming... How has it fared for you? I know in the Scape variants it is great to buy time, but in mid range versions of the deck it never felt amazing.

It's a very situational card, he can be very mediocre in some states of the game vs different matchups, he have won me a couple of games almost by himself though vs BUG wich has no real good answers to him. I Believe it's an autoinclude in all red lists of the deck as a one-off but as a one-off only.

[Rackhamm]

After reviewing the last few dozen pages of this thread Junk lists seem to be all over the place. I put together a quick list as a starting point for Junk Pod. For this particular list I would just need to get the equipments and dual lands.

Is SFM + package a solid choice in a junk pod list? Rector Fit looks pretty good too and some people have experimented with PW lists as well. All in all these various "packages" look pretty fun and interesting.

Other things like Voice, Redcaps, Pontiff are have been discussed here but not extensively. Mostly they are carry overs from modern pod. Was thinking voice is a good GSZ target and Pod fodder. Redcaps to hit things like delver or finish off after a chump block. Pontiff as my mainboard way to kill TNN as most people say they are everywhere. Marsh Flats over ONS fetches just because I have them.

I think probably will devote a good portion of the SB to things like thoughtseize, liliana/deed, and hate cards depending on local meta.

23 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff

1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Restoration Angel
1 Murderous Redcaps

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw


10 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay


5 Other Permanents
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte


21 Lands

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[tadiou]

Played a BUG Pod list at a 1k today... And the second physical legacy event i've played with the deck, and third since... well. Survival was a thing.

2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Brainstorm
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Acidic Slime
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Pestermite
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage

I can say, the demands of the BUG list are just... tough. I've played a lot of Pod in the past, modern and standard... And this one is no different. Basically I feel that I have to jam an incredible amount of games and board states to further progress (and play vs a lot more stoneblade until I can smell that matchup from start to finish).



The one thing that I know well enough from my previous experience is how to play Cabal Therapy, and I played a lot of combo matches on the day, and the list seemed to play really well vs most of the combo decks. I'm actually pleasantly surprised how well it played without 4 Forces... without having to play 4 Forces. On the play I was usually able to resolve either a Cabal Therapy or Duress and buy enough time to land either another discard spell, Swan Song, or others. Sneak and Show couldn't resolve much on me all day (in 2 matches), ANT wasn't really able to get there either. Normally it was: Cabal Therapy T1, Cabal Therapy T2, Arcane Lab T3 or Glen Elendra... And that was it. Even saw a Doomsday list that couldn't resolve that much. Combo Elves wasn't that bad either after resolving deed t2 with Phyrexian Tower & Explorer (with 1 mana up) and a good golgari charm.

But I seemed to not be able to actually close out games vs the fair decks, which kind of blew my mind, because I felt on the construction of it, it should have of just ate up the fair decks better (hence my disillusion that I went 5-0 vs combo decks and 0-4 vs fair decks). Saw 3 different Stoneblades and 1 UR stifle-delver, U/B Tezzeret and Jund. The Jund matchup felt the best out of all of them, mostly because I felt that Birthing Pod just got so much value. But, I couldn't get enough creatures ever at one time to stick on the field between a bevy of Punishing Fires, Maelstrom Pulses and Liliana's... I was constantly reaching for cards that I could get to just stick on the board when I had a Pod...

But mostly, they all were very grindy, and very close, but felt that I just ran out of gas in each matchup when my opponent didn't. I didn't get a lot of good top decks either (HELLO ALL MY LAND). but can definitely tell where I was lacking in my play and familiarity of the deck (and a bit of the format, as I'm much more accomplished in modern than current legacy), but most of the time felt I was just one or two good draws away from closing out games. Too often I think I wasn't resolving Birthing Pod, just as a critique on my own play... and I think that was what I should have been doing more as I would have accumulated more value from my creatures. I didn't resolve a pod very much at all in many of my matches, and when I did, I usually won, and definitely didn't get top decks like Brad Nelson did in the Semi's of the Cleveland GP (those were nuts). Unlike the Modern lists, I think it's considerably more difficult to win games without an active pod, and that's something I've taken away...

Playing 20 lands with 4 DRS and 3 Veteran Explorers wasn't as shakey feeling as I thought it'd be. I played a single pestermite, and in combination with Varolz, the Scar-Striped was actually not a terrible play. Varolz actually did okay... I needed a sac outlet in one game where I had Murderous Redcap cloned with Phantasmal Image that I put in with Show and Tell, and I was able to copy his Emrakul and win off that on the crackback (by sacing Image to Varolz and copying Emrakul).

The stoneforge matchups were pretty interesting for me... TNN by itself never really bothered me (although one time I did try to get value on a 2 unflipped delver field with Golgari Charm and got there... but then he forced the second charm, and then he drops a second TNN) I was usually able to gain enough life to get there... and SFM wasn't terrifying either. I think I hit maybe 6-7 equipment off of them going SFM -> Equipment, and me going: Cabal Therapy ______ (equipment name). The problems were usually: they had a second equipment in hand, they had a second SFM in hand, they pathed my Explorer at every possible chance and me failing to come back from that. Maybe its that I ran Explorer out there too fast sometimes vs white... dunno.

Figuring it out, but just wanted to share my thoughts after playing it over the past few days.

[jbone2016]

Have we ever thought about Altar of Bone as another sac outlet for Vet/Rector? Seems interesting.

[Koby]

Innocent blood has really impressed me. It gets rid of Marit Large, it kills vet, it wrecks TNN, it can be really effective vs reanimator. And sometimes u even get to kill an Emrakul with it. HUGE Card.

Why not play Fleshbag Marauder then?

[Shoreline]

Why not play Fleshbag Marauder then?

Imo he's to clunky, 3 mana is alot in a format where Wasteland and Daze are staples in alot of the high tier decks. I would play him in the pod versions of the deck, but i dont have the cards for that.

[Shoreline]

Have we ever thought about Altar of Bone as another sac outlet for Vet/Rector? Seems interesting.

Why would u play Altar of Bone instead of Diabolic intent? Anyway i dont think either one of the cards are good enough.

[Zirath]

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13164&iddeck=96585

The specific list could use some tuning but in goldfishing a little it seems like a strong shell.

[pfiremc13]

Food chain nic fit :D

I put together a list for a shell like that in this thread a long time ago but no one paid any attention to it

I like the fact that it has pod in it

Unfortunately that means you can't fit in manipulate fate, but you can still exile you griffins with drs and ooze

[jbone2016]

Imo he's to clunky, 3 mana is alot in a format where Wasteland and Daze are staples in alot of the high tier decks. I would play him in the pod versions of the deck, but i dont have the cards for that.

Abyssal Gatekeeper?

[Shoreline]

Abyssal Gatekeeper?

The card got some potentiall but i think 4 Innocent bloods is enough edict effects, and if you feel like you need more i would go with Lilianas.

[KntrellCL]

I played my Junk Pod list last tuesday and did 3-1 losing against MUD.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Restoration Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Birthing Pod
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB [15]

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Tar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Aven Mindscensor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The deck has shown very strong hands and no mana problems with 20 lands 4 drs and 4 gsz for dryad. I would feel more comfortable with 9 or 10 fetches for the full DRS set, but there's no more space I think. SFM is a beast against tempo and aggro decks. I had some strange feelings with thrun and sigarda in the same list, as they do almost the same thing. May Archangel of Thune can take sigarda's place?

I was really amaze with the SB and how well it worked. Trading 4 Pod almost every game for 4 Natural Order (against goblins, reanimator and show n tell) and get any card suit for the scenario. Against reanimator i fetchd for Ruric tar against Ashen Rider with Animate Dead and against Show n Tell. Progenitus was better against goblins (if I had more creatures, craterhoof would made my victory much quickier). People was playing sideboard against Pod, so all those cards were dead now

The second Ooze and the second Teeg helps me to hit them into the board more consistently against the matchs I need them.

[.Ix]

KntrellCL:

Been following this thread for a while, and I've been thinking of building a list similar to yours. I've been trying it out and it seems to me that Restoration Angel doesn't do that much. Has it been good enough for you to warrant two slots in the main? And is Deed better than Engineered Explosives in this deck?

[KntrellCL]

Im having troubles with decent 4 drops... I played phyrexian metamorph, wickerbough elder, murderous redcap and resto angel, being the last better. It requires just W, skips bolts decay and it is an excellent removal for delvers and other annoying creatures.

[tadiou]

What's the bare minimum basic lands do you feel like your deck can play?

[KntrellCL]

I used to think it was 7... but then i realize that 5 (GGWWB) is the minimum to cast any card of my deck... if you can hit 5 lands you should win, hitting 5+ with veterans is a win more in my opinion. That number also let me to play more fetchs to feed my DRS

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Woohoo! Finally found a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, so now my rendition of BUG Fit is complete!

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

15 Side
3 Search for Tomorrow
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Toxic Deluge

[jbone2016]

So, who is going to Milwaukee this weekend?

[ironclad8690]

So, who is going to Milwaukee this weekend?

You guys see that nic fit player lose to an illegal attack? Sam black "tricked" (more like cheated in my opinion) that nic fit player by attacking with a craterhoof and a summoning sick visionary.

[Megadeus]

Seemed like a cheat to me. Counting your men, your library and such over and over again then asking that question seems sketchy. A seasoned veteran like Sam should most definitely have known he had no men on board when the combo began.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alright, went 2-2 yesterday at a local Legacy tournament with I believe 10 to 12 people.

Current List (61/15):
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
////
3 Search for Tomorrow
4 Duress
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Trinket Mage
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle

Match 1: v T-- [Death and Taxes] - 0-2
This has to be one of the hardest matchups for me to grasp, as the combination of Mom, StP, and fliers galore makes using Veteran Explorers difficult to say the least. Not a whole lot to say here, mostly because I can't tell what to say about what I did wrong this matchup (well, other than forgetting to side in Trinket Mage and Pithing Needle for the various equipment and Moms: could have probably used that more than the Search for Tomorrow).

Match 2: v P-- [UR Delver] - 0-2
To be honest, I expected this to be a lot more like Canadian Delver or Patriot Delver: i.e. not so burn heavy. Game 1, manage to hit an early Tabernacle to slow him down while getting myself a few lands off of Goblin Guide. However, nothing (including resolved Jace 2.0 and DRS) could save me from the double Price of Progress followed by Chain Lightning for Lethal (Price dealt 4 damage each time to me). I side in Search for Tomorrow again, though in hindsight I could have probably gotten away with siding in Trinket Mage and Engineered Explosives since I didn't see any creatures that were not CMC=1. He gets me down to 9 or so with another Goblin Guide and proceeds to cast Chain Lightning twice and Lightning Bolt for lethal.

Match 3: v G-- [RG Budget-Standard] - 2-0
Not much to say here except that a resolved Jace 2.0 wrecks manascrewed and manaflooded decks pretty badly, especially those with limited library manipulation.

Match 4: v C-- [Pauper White] - 2-0
This was against my best friend who offered to give me a ride to the event, and I knew he was either gonna go Pauper White before the tournament started. He's not a bad player per se, but he does need to adopt one key element to his play: knowing when and when not to step on the gas (to be honest, I have the same problem, though being conservative with resources is usually better than being liberal with them). As it was, I Deed his board leaving him with spirit fingers Game 1, and in Game 2 I Therapy triple Squadron Hawk followed by another Deed. Again, library manipulation is a good thing.

Anyhow, things I could definitely do better include proper siding and manipulating triggers (advice from the UR Delver player: I had a Top in play G2 and could have used it against the Goblin Guide triggers). Wouldn't hurt if I could find a suitable replacement for Carpet of Flowers/Search for Tomorrow: honestly I thought that was gonna work out better than it did.

[jbone2016]

So...yeah. 6-2-1 in Milwaukee. 36th.

Deck tonight. Report Later (just drove 6 hours home)

Spells
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer
1 Sun Titan
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 StP
2 Decay
Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ashen Rider

[Shoreline]

So...yeah. 6-2-1 in Milwaukee. 36th.

Deck tonight. Report Later (just drove 6 hours home)

Spells
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer
1 Sun Titan
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 StP
2 Decay
Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ashen Rider


WP, Jbone. Btw first game vs SamBlack, Was bullshit. You wiped his Board in response to glimpse and he had no permanents in play. Then he killed you with Elvish Visionary and Craterhoof, If you would have known that the visionary actually had summoning sickness you would have won the game with baneslayer the turn after. Pretty sad and unlucky, byt gz on ur finish.

[jbone2016]

WP, Jbone. Btw first game vs SamBlack, Was bullshit. You wiped his Board in response to glimpse and he had no permanents in play. Then he killed you with Elvish Visionary and Craterhoof, If you would have known that the visionary actually had summoning sickness you would have won the game with baneslayer the turn after. Pretty sad and unlucky, byt gz on ur finish.

Yeah, I just finished watching that part. We both lost track of what had summoning sickness. Granted, if I hold the deed until he attempts to hoof, I pretty much win. Also, misboarded. Brought in TSx2, trapx2. out: ooze, 1 vet, nightmare, 1 rector? Should have brought in: Humility and Batterskull instead of the traps. Rector probably still stays in, take out a sigarda. Live and Learn. I played this matchup a bunch last time I was in Milwaukee with my buddy who was playing elves. Teeg tends to be a house against them.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, I just finished watching that part. We both lost track of what had summoning sickness. Granted, if I hold the deed until he attempts to hoof, I pretty much win. Also, misboarded. Brought in TSx2, trapx2. out: ooze, 1 vet, nightmare, 1 rector? Should have brought in: Humility and Batterskull instead of the traps. Rector probably still stays in, take out a sigarda. Live and Learn. I played this matchup a bunch last time I was in Milwaukee with my buddy who was playing elves. Teeg tends to be a house against them.

Yeah, it can be easy to lose track of things in a match like that, not to mention the camera would make me super nervous. Everyone in the twitch chat was freaking out; most of us were rooting for you.

[jbone2016]

First time on camera at a big event and playing against a pro, I was pretty nervous. The deck did well, the pilot just made some errors.


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[jbone2016]

I was planning to go with a KOTR package with stage/dark depths instead of the rector package. But after testing it just felt too awkward to be combo. Thune/feeder still feels to awkward as well.


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[Arianrhod]

Yeah, I just finished watching that part. We both lost track of what had summoning sickness. Granted, if I hold the deed until he attempts to hoof, I pretty much win. Also, misboarded. Brought in TSx2, trapx2. out: ooze, 1 vet, nightmare, 1 rector? Should have brought in: Humility and Batterskull instead of the traps. Rector probably still stays in, take out a sigarda. Live and Learn. I played this matchup a bunch last time I was in Milwaukee with my buddy who was playing elves. Teeg tends to be a house against them.

Mindbreaks are fine vs elves, they just require you to actually do something besides just sitting there. I'd have also boarded in the Revoker -- if you Wish, you're wishing for Canonist. Second wishes are irrelevant in this matchup. Surprised that you don't have an EPlague in the board -- that would've been pretty huge. You lack a knock-out to Rector for -- I know Moat is pricy, but there really still is no replacement for it in Rector-centric builds.

[jbone2016]

What seems good to board out? Tusk, ooze, nightmare, one vet, thrun?


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[jbone2016]

Report Time:
Round 1: BUG Delver
Game 1: He lands an early deathrite and bob and just advantages me out. I believe he forced a top on turn 2, which set me back a lot. Didn't draw any removal. Out: Teeg, Nightmare, Rector x3 In: Thoughtseize x2, Batterskull, Carpet x2.
Game 2: I have a therapy, GSZ and some other stuff. I want to protect the zenith with therapy, so I name Thoughtseize blind. He reveals a daze, FOW and other stuff. Then rips a TS to take the GSZ. I don't get much going and die shortly after.
0-1 (0-2). Normal start for me. :(
Round 2: RUG Delver
Game 1: Lead with therapy, name brainstorm. He scoops. I'm like....ok..... I think I boarded in Humility and Ashen Rider, no idea what I took out
Game 2: Took some each damage from Delver, titaned him.
1-1 (2-2)
Round 3: Merfolk
Game 1: Had some early discard. Backed up with titan. Then dead. Then he copy my titan with image, brought image/titan, then image/titan, then lord with no cards left. Titan attack then deed, then I witness back the titan. Game. In: 2x TS, Batterskull. Out: teeg, Ooze, Rector
Game 2: He tried to copy of lord with an image but I decayed it to delay him a bit. Then a thrun came down. He copied it. We durdled. Got a deed, then a batterskull. Thrun+skull=ggs
2-1 (4-2)
Round 4: Death and Taxes
Game 1: I got down to 5 before I blew up the world and tore his hand apart. Easy beats from there. In: 2x TS, BS, Pridemage Out: Recur, Teeg, Ooze, Spirit?
Game 2: An early RIP took away some of my shengians. He gets a mystic for BS, I TS on my turn. Take my lumps before I stablize and win. Not sure how (need better notes)
3-1 (6-2)
Round 5: Tezzeret
Game 1: Lots of life gain on both sides (me with tusk/nightmare) and (him with thopter/sword). I'm able to deed several times but academy ruins is a big problem. After about 35 minutes, I succumb to the token army. In: TS x2 , BS Out: Not Sure
Game 2: I'm on the attack quickly but strixs slow me down. I'm able to get sun titan to recur deed every turn. The turn I kill him (in extra turns), I popped deed for two before attacks, gains enough life to survive the attack but I gobble up the combo before his next turn.
3-1-1 (7-3)
Round 6: ANT
Game 1: He wins the die roll, plays a blue fetch and passes. I therapy, he immediate says it resolves. I blind name brainstorm and hit one. Has ritual, duress, therapy and 2 land (he mull to 6). Next GSZ for vet, flashback take.....therapy?. Has a tutor. I play Spirit. Next turn, living wish for Canonist. Beat for 5 a turn...and next game. In: Traps x2, TSx2 out: Bane, sigarda, thrun, rector x1?
Game 2: I end up with a teeg in play at a trap in hand. He names therapy with his and hits for one. The hate keeps bashing while flashback the therapy I see his hand of 2 LED and a cabal ritual after I name infernal tutor and hit one (I think). He finally finds a duress for the trap but has to pass back with me having lethal. He has a chain to deal with my tusk. I therapy after his LEDs and then flash it back and he concedes.
4-1-1 (9-3)
Round 7: DnT
Game 1: Early aggression leads to a deed and Ooze and thrun clean up. In: BS, TS x2, QP
Game 2: Some early back and forth leads to him with a vial and a cataclysm and I can't catch up.
Game 3: I'm able to take away some of his early plays and then finish with Thrun and Tusk.
5-1-1 (11-4) Currently #25 (bottom of x-1-1)
Round 8: Elves
I think the video speaks for itself.
5-2-1 (11-6)
So....can't draw in (53rd)for money, so we play.
Round 9: Dnt..again
Game 1: Board wipe once, bounced brimaz with karakas and therapied away later. Tusk and thrun finished up. SB: same as before
Game 2: Early batterskull for him was good but deed and then assembled voltron (sigarda and batterskull) and finished the game quickly.

Questions? Time to sleep.

[whatwas]

So I really wanted to give BUG pod a go for a while now, and finally got a chance at a small tournament last week, having never played the list at all going in, I knew the odds were slim for me. And I was right, the deck punished me badly for my inexperience with it and I end up dropping after going 0-2. My list wasn't complete, I was missing 3 tropical islands, due to the surge in prices lately.

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[Megadeus]

BUG Pod is very difficult to play. I couldn't grasp how to make it work in a powerful enough fashion so I dropped the deck.

[whatwas]

Yep it looks ready fun but while I played it, I found myself wondering how I was going to win. It doesn't match My play style, control fits me more.

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[UseLess]

It is indeed a very difficult deck to play and takes quite some games and fine tuning to make it work. I'm still in the process of doing so. My latest thought is to include ponder, as I have quite a problem with the consistency of the deck, especially later in the game when I've ran out of gas. My thoughts are to remove 1 decay, 1 GSZ (this card has not been doing much as most targets I want are blue), 1 Shaman and one baleful strix. Anybody else having thought about adding ponder (or gitaxian probe)? I chose it over top as it is less mana intensive (early on) and is blue (better against combo with FoW in the board). My second problem is sideboarding, at which I am terrible. I still need to get used to certain decks in the meta and how to board. Any tips are most welcome. However, the deck is both challenging and fun to play, so I hope to put up some results soon that will feed my addiction.

[Jokemon]

BUG-Pod has alot of potential. I've basically discarded all other NicFit options for this deck. It is indeed a hard deck to play, but i play Pod both in modern and legacy so i've had some good experience with it now,
Almot always do well in the tournaments i've played the deck (though so far not a big one, plan on taking it to BoM in a month and hopefully will be able to bring back a report from that tourney).

My current list is as follows;

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Bone Shredder
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Aetherling

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Birthing Pod

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

SIDEBOARD
4 Force of Will
2 Swan Song
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Some info about some card choices then:
Aetherling: He is just awesome, tried him for the first time at a local tourney this weekend and he delivered.
Garruk Relentless: Still not sure about this guy, might try Jace in this spot.
Notion Thief: Should be a second Glend Elendra.
The Riptide Pilferer i've seen in some deck i really don't like. Tried it against ANT and he just ignored the card basically. Rather have Clique together with Swan Song.

One thought me and my friend had was to add Back to Basics to the deck, i kinda solves the bad match up which is 12 Post and also is really strong against alot of the Legacy decks.

[Zupponn]

Round 9: Dnt..again
Game 1: Board wipe once, bounced brimaz with karakas and therapied away later. Tusk and thrun finished up. SB: same as before
Game 2: Early batterskull for him was good but deed and then assembled voltron (sigarda and batterskull) and finished the game quickly.
I played so terribly this match...

Glad to see you finished in the money though. You were one of the most pleasant people to play against all day.

[tadiou]

It is indeed a very difficult deck to play and takes quite some games and fine tuning to make it work. I'm still in the process of doing so. My latest thought is to include ponder, as I have quite a problem with the consistency of the deck, especially later in the game when I've ran out of gas. My thoughts are to remove 1 decay, 1 GSZ (this card has not been doing much as most targets I want are blue), 1 Shaman and one baleful strix. Anybody else having thought about adding ponder (or gitaxian probe)? I chose it over top as it is less mana intensive (early on) and is blue (better against combo with FoW in the board). My second problem is sideboarding, at which I am terrible. I still need to get used to certain decks in the meta and how to board. Any tips are most welcome. However, the deck is both challenging and fun to play, so I hope to put up some results soon that will feed my addiction.

With the amount of shuffle effects, I do think it's Brainstorm or bust. I think not playing Brainstorm in lieu of any other filter/draw effects isn't right, on top of it's ability to protect vs discard and hymn which is quite rampant these days.

GSZ is a card I've also been underwhelmed with, and feel I'd be more whelmed with if I was packing a Dryad Arbor. I think it's usefulness is really only stated when you have a few good Green silver bullets. As I cut Acidic Slime, I only feel like I have Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenging Ooze. If the games are going long, I usually have resolved a Birthing Pod, and if I have a Birthing Pod, I don't necessarily need another GSZ more than a creature to find an answer.

With sideboarding, I usually cut a Cabal Therapy in most matchups (with combo and prison type being the most pertinent where you don't follow that), followed by whichever 4 drops are irrelevant (and there's usually 1), and then the same with a 5 drop, and then I work towards which cards you know are irrelevant in the matchup, or less relevant, depending on what you want to bring in.

It is very challenging and very "feely" as to actively setting up your lines of play, and rewards effort. I can see that over the past 4 weeks that I've just started getting "better" at it, and playing more of a game in a lot of matchups that I wasn't previously... except for a Bant Depths deck that I played last night that turned me upsidedown and I was like ehhhhhh. (To be fair, I also did the cardinal sin of keeping a one land brainstorm hand which I should have clearly known better, but I had brainstorm, fetch, veteran, deed, good card + good card, and saw pod + drs + creature, and was like, okay. I can do this. and then get my drs stp'd turn 2, and then my veteran stp'd turn 3, and then proceeded to discard 4 turns in a row).

[jbone2016]

I've been thinking about the sideboard again with rector/living wish package.
SB as of right now.
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ashen Rider
What I'm considering changing is dropping the Ashen Rider, 2 carpet for an O-Ring, Leyline of the Void and possibly a curse of exhaustion.
Maybe a Vindicate instead of a pulse in the main as well. (I got hosed pretty good by an academy ruins and actually a karakas). Maybe just a wasteland in the board as a wish target. Just some thoughts.

[OCPunisher]

I've been thinking about the sideboard again with rector/living wish package.
SB as of right now.
2 Thoughtseize
1 Batterskull
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ashen Rider
What I'm considering changing is dropping the Ashen Rider, 2 carpet for an O-Ring, Leyline of the Void and possibly a curse of exhaustion.
Maybe a Vindicate instead of a pulse in the main as well. (I got hosed pretty good by an academy ruins and actually a karakas). Maybe just a wasteland in the board as a wish target. Just some thoughts.

@Vindicate vs Pulse: this is a tough one. Depends on how many times you can get extra value out of killing more than one permanent vs killing a land.

Wasteland as a wish target seems real good, since the average Academy Ruins player probably has counters.

[Rock Lee]

went undefeated at 3 weekly events, 4 rounds each with this list:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Bayou
3 [RLM] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [B] Swamp (2)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [9E] Mountain (3)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
1 [M13] Thragtusk
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

[OCPunisher]

went undefeated at 3 weekly events, 4 rounds each with this list:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Bayou
3 [RLM] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [B] Swamp (2)
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [9E] Mountain (3)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
1 [M13] Thragtusk
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [RTR] Vraska the Unseen

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

That is a nice-looking list. Love all the planeswalkers that you can ramp into, the addition of Deathrite Shamans for moar ramping, and the extra set of discard spells in the board. Couple of questions for you:
- Why choose that version of Garruk over the other three? (just curious)
- Why did you choose the Punishing Fire combo as your third color over white (Rector) or blue (Brainstorm)?
- The GSZ package is a little light with only 11 creatures to 4 Zeniths. Could you maybe either cut one Zenith or add another target (either a Witness, or maybe a fatty like a Prime Time)?

Not trying to poke holes in what is obviously a very successful list, just trying to understand the logic. Thanks in advance for your insight.

[Ralf]

That is a nice-looking list. Love all the planeswalkers that you can ramp into, the addition of Deathrite Shamans for moar ramping, and the extra set of discard spells in the board. Couple of questions for you:
- Why choose that version of Garruk over the other three? (just curious)
- Why did you choose the Punishing Fire combo as your third color over white (Rector) or blue (Brainstorm)?
- The GSZ package is a little light with only 11 creatures to 4 Zeniths. Could you maybe either cut one Zenith or add another target (either a Witness, or maybe a fatty like a Prime Time)?

Not trying to poke holes in what is obviously a very successful list, just trying to understand the logic. Thanks in advance for your insight.

I would also definitely cut some cards to fit in some card selection -1 perni -1 AD (not to mention "top" as in these colors you dont have access to cantrips).

Furthermore 8 walkers might be a bit to much. I used to play a BUG walker list with the following config (see p.317 of this thread):
3 Liliana
1 Ashiok
3 Jace, the Mindf.
2 Vraska

Config that evolved to a 7 walkers one as opening hands were, more than I would like, a bit clunky (2+ walkers in a starting hand -> mull).

4 Green Sun are "OK" with 11 crits. But I would definitely cut 1 veteran (if only 5 basics) for a witness.

Phyrexian tower vs Stronghold is also to be debated.
Phyrexian tower is very relevant at the very beginning of your games, while Stronghold is better mid-late game. As a one-of, without any tools to fetch for it, I would recommend picking Stronghold over Tower.
Obviously we should not scorn at the following sequence:
T1 = Forest + Vet
T2 = Tower, sac vet, get 2 forest -> 5 mana (3 green) -> Cast Primal hunter

But this sequence is impossible in Rock's build as he only runs 2 forest MD. Nevertheless, the proba of such a start is anyway very very low.

Speaking of the mana base, I would increase the number of basics (at least 6 - 7 with 3 forest & 3 swamps) and lower the number of duals. I would also not play less than 4 groves even with 3 Punish.
Why 3 forest & 3 swamps ? Just to be able to cast a walker right after playing a CT then flashbacking it to sac' a vet (be it a Garruk or a Lily).

One reason to play Punish is the synergy with Liliana which I think is one of the reasons that made JUND's fame.
But also PF can answer weaknesses I have found in my BUG walker list (I won't speak about BGW as I have never tried one):
- Punishing Fire (BUG walker has no way to fight back MD save the lone Ooze and I'm not counting on DRS to handle PF)
- Man's land can be very problematic as Deed is your only out.

Anyway, RED as the third splash color is an interesting choice.

Here is my latest BUG list for reference purpose:

Panzers Fit.

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical island
2 Bayou
1 Underground sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Polluted delta
1 Volrath's stronghold

1 Eternal witness
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Veteran explorer
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Wall of blossom
2 Baleful Strix

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Vraska, the Unseen

2 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

4 Brainstorm
3 Negate
4 Cabal therapy
2 Green sun's zenith
3 Abrupt decay

Sideboard

1 Engineered explosives
2 Golgari charm
1 Viridian zealot
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Pithing needle
2 Swan song
2 Surgical extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize

For those interested in a Heavy Walker List, you can also read the following article:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/insidethedeck-031214-inside-the-deck-legacy-veteran-walkers/

[EpicLevelCommoner]

[BUG] Cuban Nic Fit (60/15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
/////
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinket Mage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

[OCPunisher]

[BUG] Cuban Nic Fit (60/15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
/////
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinket Mage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

Interesting use of the Depths combo with PrimeTime.

Do you really need the Tops with four Brainstorm and two Jace?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Interesting use of the Depths combo with PrimeTime.

Do you really need the Tops with four Brainstorm and two Jace?

Regarding the Depths Combo: I know you can get the same damage output from Treetop Village/Creeping Tar Pit/other manland x2, but the problem I have with those is that they are relatively easy removed, particularly by decks with Burn or Swords to Plowshares. At least with the Marit Lage token, Burn can't do shit against it, and Swords to Plowshares on it grants one hell of a life lead, which may be enough for this deck to just outlast the opponent.

Regarding the Tops, I found that 2 Tops in conjunction with 4 Brainstorm works best for me. The 2 JtMS, although good as a recurring Brainstorm stick, doesn't have that same reliability as Brainstorm and Top does . . . in my experience it's pretty much best used as an alternative win condition with 'removal' and card quality/advantage as perks instead of the major selling point.

Speaking of Planeswalkers ... I'm thinking of replacing Maelstrom Pulse with Vraska, as this trades the ability to hit overextended boards for more self-reliant nonlands, such as most Show and Tell/Reanimator targets. Any thoughts?

[Rock Lee]

I would also definitely cut some cards to fit in some card selection -1 perni -1 AD (not to mention "top" as in these colors you dont have access to cantrips).

Furthermore 8 walkers might be a bit to much. I used to play a BUG walker list with the following config (see p.317 of this thread):
3 Liliana
1 Ashiok
3 Jace, the Mindf.
2 Vraska

Config that evolved to a 7 walkers one as opening hands were, more than I would like, a bit clunky (2+ walkers in a starting hand -> mull).

4 Green Sun are "OK" with 11 crits. But I would definitely cut 1 veteran (if only 5 basics) for a witness.

Phyrexian tower vs Stronghold is also to be debated.
Phyrexian tower is very relevant at the very beginning of your games, while Stronghold is better mid-late game. As a one-of, without any tools to fetch for it, I would recommend picking Stronghold over Tower.
Obviously we should not scorn at the following sequence:
T1 = Forest + Vet
T2 = Tower, sac vet, get 2 forest -> 5 mana (3 green) -> Cast Primal hunter

But this sequence is impossible in Rock's build as he only runs 2 forest MD. Nevertheless, the proba of such a start is anyway very very low.

Speaking of the mana base, I would increase the number of basics (at least 6 - 7 with 3 forest & 3 swamps) and lower the number of duals. I would also not play less than 4 groves even with 3 Punish.
Why 3 forest & 3 swamps ? Just to be able to cast a walker right after playing a CT then flashbacking it to sac' a vet (be it a Garruk or a Lily).

One reason to play Punish is the synergy with Liliana which I think is one of the reasons that made JUND's fame.
But also PF can answer weaknesses I have found in my BUG walker list (I won't speak about BGW as I have never tried one):
- Punishing Fire (BUG walker has no way to fight back MD save the lone Ooze and I'm not counting on DRS to handle PF)
- Man's land can be very problematic as Deed is your only out.

Anyway, RED as the third splash color is an interesting choice.

Here is my latest BUG list for reference purpose:

Panzers Fit.

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical island
2 Bayou
1 Underground sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Polluted delta
1 Volrath's stronghold

1 Eternal witness
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Veteran explorer
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Wall of blossom
2 Baleful Strix

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Vraska, the Unseen

2 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

4 Brainstorm
3 Negate
4 Cabal therapy
2 Green sun's zenith
3 Abrupt decay

Sideboard

1 Engineered explosives
2 Golgari charm
1 Viridian zealot
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Pithing needle
2 Swan song
2 Surgical extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize

For those interested in a Heavy Walker List, you can also read the following article:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/insidethedeck-031214-inside-the-deck-legacy-veteran-walkers/

Tested stronghold and caused too many mulligans, couldn't recur spells, and as you said, this is a heavier planeswalker list so ramp and fixing is at a premium. Top is "ok," but 4 AD lets me push through Miracles and strong delver draws. Have tested AD at 2-3-4, and 4 was where I wanted it always.\

I ran heavy cantrips in testing, brainstorm, jaces, sylvan library, tops. Punishing Fire was the best compliment color by far.

[UseLess]

I finally made my BUG pod list work! At one of the local weeklies I went 4-1-1 and made 2nd place (shared with 1st) out of 22 players or so. After the tournament before this one I wanted the deck to be more consistent and less depending on top decks in mid/late games. Especially against control decks I was losing often due to bad draws later in the game. I have too often lost after a board wipe and both players with empty hands that I draw an Underground Sea and my opponent a Jace or so... Anyway, I made some space for additional cantrips and added 3 ponder. I loved them during the whole tournament and will definitely keep them in for more testing. The whole list just worked for me and none of the cards felt bad/redundant nor did I miss anything.

Mainboard:
3x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Baleful Strix
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Thragtusk
1x Acidic Slime
1x Consecrated Sphinx

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Abrupt Decay

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Birthing Pod

1x Liliana of the Veil

2x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
4x Force of Will
2x Envelop
2x Swan Song
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Engineered Plague
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Thoughtseize

A very short report for those interested. What I tried most was not to use Cabal therapy too quickly and keep ponder/brainstorm for later stages in the game when I was running out of gas rather than just slamming them asap. This definitely worked and won me some games.

First round: Enchantress Rip/Helm combo (1-1 Draw)
g1: We both were a bit slow but I blew his board away with a Pernicious deed and won quickly after that.
g2: He assembled the combo before I could stop him and I just thought stupidly thinking he would go for Emrakul. I was surprised to see the combo and would surely have boarded different if I realized this was what was coming (I should have known).
g3: We had few minutes left and I managed to stop his combo with a (lucky) top-decked Force of Will, after which we went into time.

Second round: White Staxx (2-0)
g1: Deed shined and blew up all his relevant stuff together with Abrupt decay. Chalice on 1 and Trinisphere just don't really do it against this deck.
g2: See game 1.

Third round: Jund (2-0)
g1: Close round where Punishing fire nearly got me. I had a birthing pod in play, but it was difficult to keep any creatures alive since he could fire them 2 to 3 times a turn. However, the life gain from thusk and the grinding of the pod got me there.
g2: Close round again, but again pod + life gain was very strong and a well timed surgical on his punishing made his deck a lot less impressive.

Fourth round: BUG (2-0)
g1: I knew he had stifle, so had to play around this. Good calls on Cabal Therapy made sure I was able to resolve a deed to clear his board. Veteran shined in grinding me advantage and Ponder was especially good to keep up with his card advantage.
g2: He starts with 2 early delvers but don't get them flipped and Golgari charm kills them before they do any real damage. He had some bad luck, but overall it wasn't that hard.

Fifth round: URbg Deathrite/delver (2-0)
g1: I didn't look forward to this match up fearing a lot of burn and a really quick deck, but the deathrites made his deck slower than it seemed (I thought he played straight UR burn). Deed and Cabal made sure I could whipe his board and Pod shined again with grinding advantage.
g2: See game 1.

Sixth round: Death and Taxes (0-1)
g1: I hate this match up. It is supposed to be a 'good' match up, but I Always tend to lose. Too many little creatures that I can't efficiently remove apart from deed. If my opponent knows this they save some for when a deed comes. I just hate all the effects their creatures have (aven mindcensor...) that are really good against what this deck tries to do. Close fight, but he locked me out the game with a mom, 2 mindcensors (killed one) and 2 revokers... If pod and deed don't work anymore, well, the deck ain't that good.
g2: I could've won this one, but g1 took so long that we went into time after I finally established a good board state with Thragtusk and pod in play.

It didn't really matter as I was ensured of a top 4 position anyway, but still any comments on how to play better against D&T are most welcome. I saved cabal therapies for his equipments which already worked a bit better, but it still is a strong and consistent deck with a lot of hate. Would you guys board out Liliana? I went -1 Lily, -1 Sower, - something (cabal maybe) for 2 Golgari charm and the engineered plague. Didn't see any of that unfortunately though. Still very pleased with the result and gives me good hopes for the future. Crushing fair decks was fun, now I'm curious how I will fare against combo and control. For next time.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Here are a few tactics I'm gonna incorporate against my next Death and Taxes opponent.

Game Strategy
1. Hold off on Therapies until they play Stoneforge so the equipment gets dumped.
2. Hold off on Explorer triggers until they reach a critical mass of lands (usually between 3 and 5) and we haven't (most likely 5 to 7 lands)
3. Bait Mom activations (Abrupt Decay ain't so good when it fizzles from insta-protection).
3a. For example, having a fatty or Strix untapped so they'll have to give protection to swing safely.
3b. Also, using Planeswalker spot removal abilities or another Abrupt Decay on another target to open the intended target up.

Sideboard Strategy
1. Bring in any instant-speed ramp over Veteran Explorers (i.e. Sakura-Tribe Elder in my recent list)
2. Pithing Needle seems crucial for this matchup, particularly against AEther Vial (maybe: not sold on this), Mom, or Equipment.

Blind Spots
1. We have trouble with Flying creatures. Lots and lots of trouble.
1a. Aven Mindcensor in particular crushes us due to both its potent ability and its evasion.

Possible Deck Tech
1. Timbermare over Thrun, the Last Troll: so far I've been underwhelmed by Thrun, mostly because the only relevant ability on it seems to be the Hexproof, particularly if you're GSZing for it. Timbermare in this matchup provides a unique tool against DnT: it forces Moms to be proactive as opposed to reactive, particularly if you do not attack with it (which, why would you unless it would win you the game?).

[tadiou]

Pithing Needle on Vial doesn't seem great, but depending on the situation, Mangara or Karakas as well would be appropriate. Mangara provides a really rough challenge that's compounded by mostly being unable to interact with their lands, with basically Abrupt decay being your main out to it otherwise.

Their lands don't mean as much to their gameplan as your lands. Them having 15 lands in play doesn't allow them to do as much as having multiple X spells, Birthing Pod, Deed, Punishing Fire... basically whatever your flavour, our lands tend to get more work in the long game than theirs do.

Resolving Deed is tre powerful (assuming it doesn't get Revokered), but it's durdle deck vs durdle deck. Having good long-term plans trumps short-term acceleration. Don't play to sketchy land-keeps, because their initial board doesn't always get there. Golgari Charm is the other card against them that's just straight house (assuming, usually, they bring in rest in peace).

I don't see flyers as being that devastating by themselves. It's usually Mom that precludes the damage that you'd see from 3/3 flyers. Baleful Strix is real, and more often than not if you're able to actually create a board presence, you're just going to find yourself racing them in the end.

[Megadeus]

The one issue I see with holding off on Explorer triggers is that STP can stop your triggers. Has the strategy of simply ramping as quickly as possible, then deeding everything not worked out? Everytime I would lose to DnT it was because I couldn't find more lands and Thalia plus port would keep me off of Deed mana.

[tadiou]

You can't just go T1 Explorer, T2 Therapy.

You have to Therapy first every time, ensure therapy's in the yard, and then cast Explorer, because they won't have an opportunity to ever STP Explorer when you sequence it that way. T1 Blind you Therapy post-board for Rest in Peace (imo), you play the Explorer after they play SFM (if they have SFM in play after you Therapied the T1) and grab their equipment. If not, you have the opportunity to wait it out and play explorer slightly later than you usually would. I think rushing Explorer vs decks that play STP is high up there on the no-nos... I'd rather a deathrite hit the plow than the explorer every time.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Pithing Needle on Vial doesn't seem great, but depending on the situation, Mangara or Karakas as well would be appropriate. Mangara provides a really rough challenge that's compounded by mostly being unable to interact with their lands, with basically Abrupt decay being your main out to it otherwise.

True: I forgot about that combo for some reason >_<.


Their lands don't mean as much to their gameplan as your lands. Them having 15 lands in play doesn't allow them to do as much as having multiple X spells, Birthing Pod, Deed, Punishing Fire... basically whatever your flavour, our lands tend to get more work in the long game than theirs do.

Indeed, but you can't just go and give them two basic Plains untapped while they still have one or two lands out, hence why I suggest waiting for them to get an amount of lands that they would get the most out of without being excessive.


Resolving Deed is tre powerful (assuming it doesn't get Revokered), but it's durdle deck vs durdle deck. Having good long-term plans trumps short-term acceleration. Don't play to sketchy land-keeps, because their initial board doesn't always get there. Golgari Charm is the other card against them that's just straight house (assuming, usually, they bring in rest in peace).

Hmm ... never thought about it like that: but then who plays the beatdown role in this matchup?


I don't see flyers as being that devastating by themselves. It's usually Mom that precludes the damage that you'd see from 3/3 flyers. Baleful Strix is real, and more often than not if you're able to actually create a board presence, you're just going to find yourself racing them in the end.

Guess you're right: tbh I dislike the Strix in BUG since it cannot be GSZ'd for, pretty much limiting one to running it in multiples (which isn't bad perse: just really constrains deckbuilding for me).

[Arianrhod]

Dat Athreos.

[tadiou]

Dat Athreos.

QFT.

It's like... I don't even know. Just such a value machine. Little bit of a Lightning Bolt here and Eternal Witness there... wipe the board with a deed, have a hand full of cards (and Athreos still on the board). I sorta really love it in a junk pod shell like Qweerios' posted a few weeks back. It's interaction with Recurring Nightmare is borderline hilarious. It doesn't necessarily work that nicely with persist/undying creatures, but it's one of those grindy matchups shining stars that should eke out a few extra wins in games that you normally wouldn't.

[Arianrhod]

Note: I -believe- it works beneficially with Rector, because you can stack the triggers how you wish (choose to exile Rector first). Also, Athreos + Yosei is BACKBREAKING.

Unfortunately his trigger is mandatory, not optional. But, I guess he's nuts enough and doesn't need to be even more so.

7 devotion is going to be basically impossible to get in BW barring ridiculously win-more board states, but that's fine because we don't want him for his body anyway. He's safer if he never animates, actually, because of Swords to Plowshares. If he's inanimate, he's actually literally impossible to kill in legacy, which is awesome.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Note: I -believe- it works beneficially with Rector, because you can stack the triggers how you wish (choose to exile Rector first). Also, Athreos + Yosei is BACKBREAKING.

Unfortunately his trigger is mandatory, not optional. But, I guess he's nuts enough and doesn't need to be even more so.

7 devotion is going to be basically impossible to get in BW barring ridiculously win-more board states, but that's fine because we don't want him for his body anyway. He's safer if he never animates, actually, because of Swords to Plowshares. If he's inanimate, he's actually literally impossible to kill in legacy, which is awesome.

I was actually expecting more from the green gods since they could be GSZ'd out of the library and still be inanimate: hopefully Pharika gives us something good. But yeah: only thing that can really touch a inanimate God in Legacy is Emrakul and Mangara as far as I'm aware.

[tadiou]

I was actually expecting more from the green gods since they could be GSZ'd out of the library and still be inanimate: hopefully Pharika gives us something good. But yeah: only thing that can really touch a inanimate God in Legacy is Emrakul and Mangara as far as I'm aware.

I think they recognized how ridiculous a GSZ'd god would be in legacy and left all of us with blech. Pharika's pretty trashy. Flavorful, but trashy. The only truly breakable one is Athreos. (fyi: 1BG, 5/5, BG: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. It's owner puts a 1/1 black and green Snake enchantment creature token with deathtouch onto the battlefield.)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think they recognized how ridiculous a GSZ'd god would be in legacy and left all of us with blech. Pharika's pretty trashy. Flavorful, but trashy. The only truly breakable one is Athreos. (fyi: 1BG, 5/5, BG: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. It's owner puts a 1/1 black and green Snake enchantment creature token with deathtouch onto the battlefield.)

Yeah I saw that and just shook my head. Pharika is trash. Nylea is decent, but meh in our deck since we don't have a whole lot of heavy hitters. Karametra wouldn't get that much value. Kruphix seems to have some potential given that we run Deed, GSZ, and Top, but it's fairly useless on it's own. Only Xenagos looks sweet, particularly with PrimeTime, but then again it's useless on its own.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Brief report on a local tourney yesterday. If details are a bit sketchy, I apologize: I was in ER Tuesday and have been lethargic ever since.

[BUG] Cuban Nic Fit (60/15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Timbermare
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vraska, the Unseen
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
/////
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinket Mage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

Round 1 v. C-- [Jund] (0-1;1-2-0) Game 1 I bring him down to 8 life with a Timbermare in hand and Creeping Tar Pit on the field and enough creatures on his side of the field to eat me alive. I cast the Timbermare, animate the Tar Pit, and proceed to swing for lethal. Game 2 I almost kill him the same way, but neglecting to account for DRS activation leaves at just 1 life while next turn he proceeds to swing for lethal. By the time Game 3 got underway, there was no way I could recuperate before time, so I conceded the game and thus the match.

Round 2 v. Z-- [Patriot Delver] (0-2;0-2-0) I want to smash my face with a brick for how bad I played this match. Game 1 I keep my initial 7 with 1 Bayou and 6 other spells. He proceeds to Swords, Daze, and Wasteland me into oblivion. Game 2 I decide not to side in either Sakura Tribe Elder or Trinket Mage plus Pithing Needle for Batterskull, so the game grinds out with me inevitably losing to Batterskull beats.

Round 3 v. D-- [BW Auras] (1-2;2-0-0) Not much to say here, unfortunately. Game 2 he managed to overextend and swing for 18 pro-green, allowing me to finish him with a full out blitz of Timbermare, Thragtusk, Tar Pit and something else.

Round 4 v. M-- [Junk Modern Port] (2-2;1-0-1) Game 1 goes on forever, with myself almost running out of effective creatures. However, I manage to destroy his Batterskull, and thus am able to grind him out at last. We go to turn game 2, so we just agree to draw for that game, granting me the win.

Notes:
1. I need to work on my sideboarding a bit: I never sided in or out anything, which might have helped me, especially Game 1 and Game 2.

2. Timbermare is an absolute house: every win or near-loss has been because of Timbermare enabling the beats.

3. Vraska, on the other hand, has been rather meh: never really felt like there was difference between her or Maelstrom Pulse. Might try Karn Liberated in place of either.

[tadiou]

Yeah I saw that and just shook my head. Pharika is trash. Nylea is decent, but meh in our deck since we don't have a whole lot of heavy hitters. Karametra wouldn't get that much value. Kruphix seems to have some potential given that we run Deed, GSZ, and Top, but it's fairly useless on it's own. Only Xenagos looks sweet, particularly with PrimeTime, but then again it's useless on its own.

I wouldn't necessarily count out Thassa either as being the worst depending on the list... I've been running anything from Sea Gate Oracle & Edric, Spymaster of Trest in that (pod) 3 drop spot and I'm not entirely satisfied with either of them. Its an actual option in a pod list that wouldn't actually have a shot at turning her on...

Ensuring card quality off the top of deck I think is a really nice advantage to Thassa in considerably longer grindy games as an alternative to playing Athreos... over a long enough timeframe it's card quality engine will beat any particular CA you could procure from the aforementioned SGO & Edric without being able to be shut out nearly as easily. You have Nylea, but you hit the nail on the head. There's the mana you can sink into Nylea, but at that point and time, would it actually be any better than plugging out unblockables?

Just actively musing here, because I feel that after the 5 drop spot, the 3 drops feel the weakest to me, the 4's feel good and the 2's are fine.

(Creatures_
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Pestermite
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
(non creatures)
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Brainstorm

That spot has basically been the following: Sea Gate Oracle, Edric, Spymaster of Trent, Green Sun's Zenith, Brainstorm #4, Veteran Explorer #4, Abrupt Decay #3. I stopped with the AD recently because I felt I was using it as a crutch too much and blowing it too early and too unnecessarily when often the answer would present itself sometimes. I play Man-o'-War in the side (well, AEther Adept until the Man-o'-War gets pulled out of one of those uncommon bins somewhere, but it's essentially the same). I don't really want to replace it with a 5 drop because I don't think there's enough that I can go against, and my meta plays enough TNN/Stoneblade where I end up playing long grindy games. GSZ was nice because I could grab Viridian Corrupter, and I don't run enough spot removal to make me feel that Fleshbag Maurader is a good enough card vs TNN, and as much as I'd want to, adjusting the BUG Pod manabase is a very shaky existence as is. I tried a 1-of Academy Rector (and if I ever went that route again, I'd probably just play Athreos). I could play the Man-o'-War mainboard and run a Back to Basics in it's spot in the sideboard.

It's been playing much better, and I've been having some really good results with it over the past 2 weeks (2 tournament wins this week for $150 or so). But I'm still looking for that last spot to help me in the UW/x stoneblade matchups because A) the people I play against who play it are very good at the deck, and B) they get grindy, and the longer the match goes, the more crappy decisions I can make.

[jbone2016]

http://puu.sh/89hmo.jpg

So....there's another rector target. Rule of law on a stick.....but still can be decayed....I'm torn.

[KntrellCL]

Ive been playing massacre wurm instead of grave titan and it was a nice replacement against death n taxes and against bug

[EpicLevelCommoner]

So....there's another rector target. Rule of law on a stick.....but still can be decayed....I'm torn.

I believe the leyline of sanctity bear might be better. Shuts off tendrils, targeted discard and burn.

[Dia_Bot]

I believe the leyline of sanctity bear might be better. Shuts off tendrils, targeted discard and burn.
Shuts off liliana too.

[whatwas]

I have been fish bowling with bug pod and I feel like it's got too many 2cc, I cut phantasmal image for a third AD, so the curve wasn't effected. And I am liking the look now. What do u guys think?

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

[tadiou]

I have been fish bowling with bug pod and I feel like it's got too many 2cc, I cut phantasmal image for a third AD, so the curve wasn't effected. And I am liking the look now. What do u guys think?

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

I think Phantasmal Image is really, really, really good. Like, image is a necessary piece of glue from the 1 drops. Doubling Thragtusk, Glen Elendra, et al. is a very, very good 1->2 effect in the deck. You're pushing incremental battles with one drops to your 5 drops or even 6 drops. I think at least one clone effect is really necessary, if you think it's Phyrexian Metamorph or Clone or Image... I think in a deck like this, you really do want one to get the most value out of it.

It's something that's a lot better in practice than in goldfishing because it opens up tons of plays. Example.

Facing D&T. I was ahead by quite a bit (I had some really good cabal therapies), had an Explorer, 2 Baleful Strix's and Viridian Corruptor (and 1 Deed) on board. My opponent had a Pithing Needle naming Deed, Mom, Sword of Fire and Ice and Grafdigger's Cage. I had Man-o'-War and Phantasmal Image in hand (and a Thragtusk and 5 land?). My opponent was at 6 poison and 11 life.

I played Man-o'-War targeting Corruptor. Passed. Replayed Corruptor, and targeted Pithing Needle, played Phantasmal Image, copying Corruptor, targeting SoFI (the Grafdiggers didn't really matter). I had 4 poison on board (weirdly), and was only going to be stopped at that point by a mirran crusader or 2 of 4 Swords to Plowshares left in his deck (his opener was 2 StP, and I had found a second Cabal Therapy after naming Stoneforge Mystic with my first one).

My opponent probably over-boarded a bit with Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage and Pithing Needle.. as he drew into all of them, and the great part about Bug Pod is the creatures that you board in usually don't dilute the gameplan of hitting them for 2 every turn. You're still getting action with the cards you bring in.

[jbone2016]

I believe the leyline of sanctity bear might be better. Shuts off tendrils, targeted discard and burn.

True Believer? But....it's not an enchantment.
I'll probably stick with either Nether Void or curse of exhaustion (quite a beating when you can rector/tower it out when there are going off) as my storm/elves hate.

Whoa. Didn't actually see the Aegis spoiled. Not shabby.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

True Believer? But....it's not an enchantment.
I'll probably stick with either Nether Void or curse of exhaustion (quite a beating when you can rector/tower it out when there are going off) as my storm/elves hate.

Whoa. Didn't actually see the Aegis spoiled. Not shabby.

Yeah: unfortunately it's easily removed, so against 'fair' decks it's a little more than a hurdle. Still: a rector target that can be reasonably hardcast early on isn't shabby at all.

Also, another bonus (albeit still temporary): it shuts down Jace 2.0 as a fateseal engine, Karn Liberated as a discard engine, Gitaxian Probe in general ...

[Ecstatic_Conch]

I've been playing scapeshift lately and doing well with the deck. It feels a lot more competitive than the punishing fire version (I.E. actually has a real ability to end the game) based on my experiences. This is the list I'm going to be playing this weekend at SCG Detroit, barring any last minute changes. So far I've been pleased with the 75 and slaughter games has been a beast against combo. I noticed a weakness to graveyard decks so I added 2 extirpate in the board. So far it's helped. The scavenging ooze is definitely necessary as it gives you a game one against dredge that you wouldn't otherwise have. The most disappointing card so far has been primeval titan, it's eaten a swords to plowshares every time and doesn't impact the board at all when it comes down as you usually don't have enough mountains in play until you've attacked with it at least twice (which never happens). I haven't seen many people talk about the deck lately in here, it's mostly been pod. Let me know if you have any suggestions.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Massacre

[Ralf]

I've been playing scapeshift lately and doing well with the deck. It feels a lot more competitive than the punishing fire version (I.E. actually has a real ability to end the game) based on my experiences. This is the list I'm going to be playing this weekend at SCG Detroit, barring any last minute changes. So far I've been pleased with the 75 and slaughter games has been a beast against combo. I noticed a weakness to graveyard decks so I added 2 extirpate in the board. So far it's helped. The scavenging ooze is definitely necessary as it gives you a game one against dredge that you wouldn't otherwise have. The most disappointing card so far has been primeval titan, it's eaten a swords to plowshares every time and doesn't impact the board at all when it comes down as you usually don't have enough mountains in play until you've attacked with it at least twice (which never happens). I haven't seen many people talk about the deck lately in here, it's mostly been pod. Let me know if you have any suggestions.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Massacre

Good list.
I have replaced phyrexian tower with a lone karakas to better fight S&T, but this is rather a meta call.

I play 3 Huntmasters. The creature package is the same otherwise.

I'm usually playing 3 Cabal Therapy MD and one in the side, because I often find more relevant to wish for a CT rather than a TS.

I play 3 TS & 3 CT main deck in place of your 2 of Abrupt decay, but here again is rather a meta call (more combo.deck in my area so I like the extra discard MD)

2 Abrupt decay MD is a good call against an unknown (wide) field.

I would add a pyroclasm in your side, this card is bonker against tribal strategy & swarm.

I would also replace extirpate with surgical because T1 TS followed by surgical as won me non 0 amount of games against combo ! But I guess it is more a personal preference -> uncounterability or explosivity !

Here is my side:
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Engineered explosives
SB: 1 Massacre

[pfiremc13]

Hi. I still haven't had the time nor access to any of the cards to build nic fit :( Is anyone here still playing white? If so, do you have reports on Spirit of the Labyrinth? On the surface is still seems better than the new hatebears, just cause sneak and show sucks that way.

Athreos looks good. Very, very good.

[jbone2016]

Hi. I still haven't had the time nor access to any of the cards to build nic fit :( Is anyone here still playing white? If so, do you have reports on Spirit of the Labyrinth? On the surface is still seems better than the new hatebears, just cause sneak and show sucks that way.

Athreos looks good. Very, very good.

I'm still playing Junk. I had SotL as a one of in my deck in Milwaukee. It would have been nice in round 8 but other then that it wouldn't have had much impact. I'll keep it in the main for a little while at least. Not sure about the enchantment creatures yet. If they had a black leyline creature....that would be awesome.

[Nihilis]

I've been playing scapeshift lately and doing well with the deck. It feels a lot more competitive than the punishing fire version (I.E. actually has a real ability to end the game) based on my experiences. This is the list I'm going to be playing this weekend at SCG Detroit, barring any last minute changes. So far I've been pleased with the 75 and slaughter games has been a beast against combo. I noticed a weakness to graveyard decks so I added 2 extirpate in the board. So far it's helped. The scavenging ooze is definitely necessary as it gives you a game one against dredge that you wouldn't otherwise have. The most disappointing card so far has been primeval titan, it's eaten a swords to plowshares every time and doesn't impact the board at all when it comes down as you usually don't have enough mountains in play until you've attacked with it at least twice (which never happens). I haven't seen many people talk about the deck lately in here, it's mostly been pod. Let me know if you have any suggestions.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Massacre

I replaced my copy of Phyrexian Tower with another fetch, seeing as getting the right colour of mana really is the achilles heel of this deck. The offchance of getting an insane turn 2 with tower/explorer really isn't worth it in this version.

Going into such a wide meta and with the massive popularity of miracles it might be justified to replace the main deck abrupt decays for slaughter games. Having access to 2 slaughter games main and 1 in the sideboard is just brutal against that deck (although usually at my local meta I do play abrupt decays in these flex spots).

Consider replacing the thoughtseize for another thragtusk or huntmaster, as your creature count seems fairly low at the moment and these two value town creatures are of a higher impact that a singeton thoughtseize.

Apart from that, like Ralf said consider replacing the extirpates for surgical extractions (the no-mana investment does really outweigh the near uncounterability). I also second that pyroclasm.

Have fun crushing fair decks at the open! ;)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thinking bout utilizing a singleton Cunning Wish in place of Diabolic Intent. How does this look for such a sideboard?

2 Sakura Tribe Elder
2 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Surgical
1 Trickbind
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Echoing Truth

[pfiremc13]

I'm still playing Junk. I had SotL as a one of in my deck in Milwaukee. It would have been nice in round 8 but other then that it wouldn't have had much impact. I'll keep it in the main for a little while at least. Not sure about the enchantment creatures yet. If they had a black leyline creature....that would be awesome.

Ok...let me know how sotl does.

Honestly, I don't really care that much about graveyard decks post-side except for the surgical extractions (which help against other decks as well obviously). Why do you think a lotv bear would help us when we already want des and scooze?

What do you think about athreos?

[jbone2016]

Interesting pod deck on camera.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Philipp2293]

Missed it :( What was happening?

EDIT: Just watching the replay. Pretty sloppy play on both sides.

[anwei]

Missed it :( What was happening?

EDIT: Just watching the replay. Pretty sloppy play on both sides.

Yea - that botched CB trigger was pretty rough. I think the intent was: trigger cb, activate top flip, resolve first part of top and draw, trigger/resolve miracle, resolve cb trigger, finish resolving top flip and replace top on the deck.

[firebadmattgood]

Yea - that botched CB trigger was pretty rough. I think the intent was: trigger cb, activate top flip, resolve first part of top and draw, trigger/resolve miracle, resolve cb trigger, finish resolving top flip and replace top on the deck.

Nothing resolves in between drawing a card and putting the top on your library. They are part of the same ability.

[ironclad8690]

Was that for the DRS resolution?

[TheRealQuin]

Hey guys, I'm brand new to Nic Fit (I've been playing burn since I got into Legacy a few months back), and I'm trying to do writeups of events I play just to sort of track and better focus my learning the deck. I posted it on my local forum but figured I'd cross-post it here and see if you guys had any thoughts. I'd definitely appreciate any comments/criticism on plays I made and/or how to improve upon these writeups!


Attempt #1: Pat's Games 4/19/14~10 people

Ran a list that looked something like this:

2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (Note that the SB was still mostly stuff I threw together at the last minute)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Slaughter Games
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Blood Moon
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood


Here's how it went:

Round 1 vs Jason w/ Esper Deathblade
Game 1: He plays an Underground Sea and a Deathrite Shaman, I Cabal Therapy and hit one Brainstorm, planning to play Veteran Explorer on my second turn and sac it to CT, but it gets exiled by DRS. That puts me behind and he ends up getting way out ahead on the board, landing a Jace the Mindsculptor that I can't find a way to deal with (I don't get the Punishing Fire-Grove of the Burnwillows engine online), and manages to get out a Truename Nemesis and I think a Batterskull or perhaps a Umezawa's Jitte. I land a Pernicious Deed and wipe the board (except for Jace), and manage to cast Primeval Titan, who promptly ate a Swords to Plowshares. With that, Jace continues to fateseal me until he ults and wins the game.

I can't really remember what I boarded in or out, but I know I brought in Slaughtergames and REB

Game 2: I mull to 5 and keep an iffy hand in an attempt to have some cards in hand. I land a Veteran Explorer to gets Swords to Plowshares'd and then I land another who managed to swing for like 5 damage over a few turns of do-nothing grindiness. This all sort of builds to a climactic moment where I cast Thragtusk into a Force of Will and stumble a bit (note that Rest in Peace was in play, hosing my Eternal Witness rescue party). I somehow know he has a Batterskull in hand (I think he had just stoneforged it into his hand?) and make what feels like a misplay:

I'm without a red source and spin Sensei's Divining Top, seeing: Slaughtergames, Grove of the Burnwillows, Verdant Catacombs. I set them back Grove, Slaughtergames, Catacombs, and draw Grove for the turn. With that in mind, I then could have drawn a card with Sensei's Divining Top to get (and cast) Slaughtergames naming Batterskull. Jace The Mindsculptor would then have, of course, fatesealed the top away, but I don't feel I have a great answer to Batterskull, and when he ended up resolving it on his next turn, things got bad and I wasn't able to draw into any answers.

Matches: 0-1, Games: 0-2

Round 2 vs Ryan w/ ???
Round two I play against Ryan with some kind of crazy Charge Counters shenanigans combo deck? We only play one game and I don't really do anything because I couldn't draw into an answer for Ensnaring Bridge, before he took like 10 turns in a row and ulted Tezzeret the Seeker and attacked me for 25.

Matches: 0-2, Games: 0-3

Round 3 vs Sarah Lynn w/ American Delver/Stoneblade/Something?
I had sort of a headache after round 2 so my memory here is pretty iffy and my notes aren't all that helpful, but we'll see what I can do

Game 1: She resolves a Batterskull pretty quickly and I manage to wipe the board with Pernicious Deed (I think?). She follows up not long after with a Truename Nemesis equipped with Umezawa's Jitte, who closes things out pretty quickly.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Thoughtseize

+1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Golgari Charm

Game 2 I mull into a meh hand again, and land a T1 Veteran Explorer, who gets Swords to Plowshares'd immediately. This puts me behind again, and she manages to get way out in front on the board, with something like a Stoneforge Mystic withUmezawa's Jitte a Truename Nemesis and a Delver of Secrets. I draw a Pernicious Deed and wipe the board which buys me a little bit of time. We go back and forth on topdecks, she plays a delver, I golgari charm it, etc. I cast a Cabal Therapy naming Brainstorm, and see a Batterskull, Sword of Feast and Famine, and a Lightning Bolt. I have a Viridian Shaman in hand and panic a bit. So I play it (with no artifacts on board to destroy) and sac it to Cabal Therapy to take out the skull. She finally plays a Stoneforge Mystic and lands a Sword of Feast and Famine and I make a sort of lame play of waiting until AFTER she equipped it to cast Punishing Fire, which of course did nothing (should have played it in response to equipping). The sworded Stoneforge took me down to 6, then 3, then I died to a bolt.

Matches: 0-3, Games: 0-5--After that, I had a bunch of research to take care of for a paper so I dropped.

So, not my best showing, but I didn't really expect it to be, given that these were my first 5 games with the deck.

As far as what I could learn, it seems like I really need to pay attention to what hands are keepable and not, and how to sideboard different matchups. There were some sloppy plays for sure, and I think I need to work on getting into a more "control"-y mindset, and maybe focus a little less on playing proactively like I did with Burn? Wasting the Viridian Shaman was a pretty lame play. It seems like the point of strength in control is to be responding to things, but I guess I worry a bit about being a control deck with no counters? Maybe the way to go is to focus on removal and hand control until you know you can get your finishers through?

What worked:
-Pernicious Deed was definitely the all-star of the day, and ultimately helped me stabilize a bunch of times
-Sensei's Divining Top, when I had it, was pretty sweet. Feels a little awkward drawing more than one, but perhaps having multiples in play isn't the worst thing? (some degree of insurance?)

What didn't work:
-I feel like once I stabilized by wiping the board, I wasn't ever really able to land any kind of meaningful finisher? Maybe that's just bad luck with Primeval Titan and Thragtusk getting Swords'd or Forced, and maybe some bad luck in not drawing them (or Green Sun's Zenith when I needed them? Kessig Wolf Run could definitely find a place in the MB, but I'm not really sure what I'd cut for it.
-Veteran Explorer getting exiled a bunch of times was a total pain, but I guess that's just going to happen sometimes? Leading with a Cabal Therapy feels better, but for some reason I just hardly ever drew them?
-I hate Batterskull

Overall though, it seems like a really fun deck and I'm looking forward to getting some more games in and hopefully figuring this beast out.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hey guys, I'm brand new to Nic Fit (I've been playing burn since I got into Legacy a few months back), and I'm trying to do writeups of events I play just to sort of track and better focus my learning the deck. I posted it on my local forum but figured I'd cross-post it here and see if you guys had any thoughts. I'd definitely appreciate any comments/criticism on plays I made and/or how to improve upon these writeups!


Attempt #1: Pat's Games 4/19/14~10 people

Ran a list that looked something like this:

2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (Note that the SB was still mostly stuff I threw together at the last minute)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Slaughter Games
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Blood Moon
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood


Here's how it went:

Round 1 vs Jason w/ Esper Deathblade
Game 1: He plays an Underground Sea and a Deathrite Shaman, I Cabal Therapy and hit one Brainstorm, planning to play Veteran Explorer on my second turn and sac it to CT, but it gets exiled by DRS. That puts me behind and he ends up getting way out ahead on the board, landing a Jace the Mindsculptor that I can't find a way to deal with (I don't get the Punishing Fire-Grove of the Burnwillows engine online), and manages to get out a Truename Nemesis and I think a Batterskull or perhaps a Umezawa's Jitte. I land a Pernicious Deed and wipe the board (except for Jace), and manage to cast Primeval Titan, who promptly ate a Swords to Plowshares. With that, Jace continues to fateseal me until he ults and wins the game.

I can't really remember what I boarded in or out, but I know I brought in Slaughtergames and REB

Game 2: I mull to 5 and keep an iffy hand in an attempt to have some cards in hand. I land a Veteran Explorer to gets Swords to Plowshares'd and then I land another who managed to swing for like 5 damage over a few turns of do-nothing grindiness. This all sort of builds to a climactic moment where I cast Thragtusk into a Force of Will and stumble a bit (note that Rest in Peace was in play, hosing my Eternal Witness rescue party). I somehow know he has a Batterskull in hand (I think he had just stoneforged it into his hand?) and make what feels like a misplay:

I'm without a red source and spin Sensei's Divining Top, seeing: Slaughtergames, Grove of the Burnwillows, Verdant Catacombs. I set them back Grove, Slaughtergames, Catacombs, and draw Grove for the turn. With that in mind, I then could have drawn a card with Sensei's Divining Top to get (and cast) Slaughtergames naming Batterskull. Jace The Mindsculptor would then have, of course, fatesealed the top away, but I don't feel I have a great answer to Batterskull, and when he ended up resolving it on his next turn, things got bad and I wasn't able to draw into any answers.

Matches: 0-1, Games: 0-2

Round 2 vs Ryan w/ ???
Round two I play against Ryan with some kind of crazy Charge Counters shenanigans combo deck? We only play one game and I don't really do anything because I couldn't draw into an answer for Ensnaring Bridge, before he took like 10 turns in a row and ulted Tezzeret the Seeker and attacked me for 25.

Matches: 0-2, Games: 0-3

Round 3 vs Sarah Lynn w/ American Delver/Stoneblade/Something?
I had sort of a headache after round 2 so my memory here is pretty iffy and my notes aren't all that helpful, but we'll see what I can do

Game 1: She resolves a Batterskull pretty quickly and I manage to wipe the board with Pernicious Deed (I think?). She follows up not long after with a Truename Nemesis equipped with Umezawa's Jitte, who closes things out pretty quickly.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-2 Thoughtseize

+1 Viridian Shaman
+2 Golgari Charm

Game 2 I mull into a meh hand again, and land a T1 Veteran Explorer, who gets Swords to Plowshares'd immediately. This puts me behind again, and she manages to get way out in front on the board, with something like a Stoneforge Mystic withUmezawa's Jitte a Truename Nemesis and a Delver of Secrets. I draw a Pernicious Deed and wipe the board which buys me a little bit of time. We go back and forth on topdecks, she plays a delver, I golgari charm it, etc. I cast a Cabal Therapy naming Brainstorm, and see a Batterskull, Sword of Feast and Famine, and a Lightning Bolt. I have a Viridian Shaman in hand and panic a bit. So I play it (with no artifacts on board to destroy) and sac it to Cabal Therapy to take out the skull. She finally plays a Stoneforge Mystic and lands a Sword of Feast and Famine and I make a sort of lame play of waiting until AFTER she equipped it to cast Punishing Fire, which of course did nothing (should have played it in response to equipping). The sworded Stoneforge took me down to 6, then 3, then I died to a bolt.

Matches: 0-3, Games: 0-5--After that, I had a bunch of research to take care of for a paper so I dropped.

So, not my best showing, but I didn't really expect it to be, given that these were my first 5 games with the deck.

As far as what I could learn, it seems like I really need to pay attention to what hands are keepable and not, and how to sideboard different matchups. There were some sloppy plays for sure, and I think I need to work on getting into a more "control"-y mindset, and maybe focus a little less on playing proactively like I did with Burn? Wasting the Viridian Shaman was a pretty lame play. It seems like the point of strength in control is to be responding to things, but I guess I worry a bit about being a control deck with no counters? Maybe the way to go is to focus on removal and hand control until you know you can get your finishers through?

What worked:
-Pernicious Deed was definitely the all-star of the day, and ultimately helped me stabilize a bunch of times
-Sensei's Divining Top, when I had it, was pretty sweet. Feels a little awkward drawing more than one, but perhaps having multiples in play isn't the worst thing? (some degree of insurance?)

What didn't work:
-I feel like once I stabilized by wiping the board, I wasn't ever really able to land any kind of meaningful finisher? Maybe that's just bad luck with Primeval Titan and Thragtusk getting Swords'd or Forced, and maybe some bad luck in not drawing them (or Green Sun's Zenith when I needed them? Kessig Wolf Run could definitely find a place in the MB, but I'm not really sure what I'd cut for it.
-Veteran Explorer getting exiled a bunch of times was a total pain, but I guess that's just going to happen sometimes? Leading with a Cabal Therapy feels better, but for some reason I just hardly ever drew them?
-I hate Batterskull

Overall though, it seems like a really fun deck and I'm looking forward to getting some more games in and hopefully figuring this beast out.

I hate Batterskull as well ^_^, especially in Death and Taxes where Veteran Explorer gives them enough mana to reliable cast it and "protect" it. My advice against this would be to run Wickerbough Elder or another GSZ target with a Naturalize activated ability WITHOUT a tap cost. That way, you can destroy the token, GSZ for the Elder, and from there play it by ear (if they don't bounce the Skull in response to the GSZ, you can activate the ability in response to that, and if they do, you can potentially followup with Liliana 2.0/Therapy).

Veteran Explorer is definitely one of the most crucial--and vulnerable--aspects of Nic Fit. Just gonna happen sometimes when you're just not gonna set one off because of bounce or exile effects. Definitely run at least 2 Sakura Tribe Elder in your 75 though: definitely useful against Swords to Plowshares or even Batterskull (block, sacrifice before damage is dealt: no damage so no lifelink).

Anyhow, from my experience, non-Scapewish Nic Fit is a special kind of control: our most powerful control elements (Therapy, GSZ and Deed) are fairly proactive, but powerful nonetheless. We also do not close out a game easily: instead, we frequently switch from the control role to the beatdown role and attempt to decrement the opponent's life total gradually (hence why Batterskull is the devil) before returning to the control role. Can't offer much more advice than that, as I'm still attempting to learn the various matchups myself.

[jbone2016]

I hate Batterskull as well ^_^, especially in Death and Taxes where Veteran Explorer gives them enough mana to reliable cast it and "protect" it. My advice against this would be to run Wickerbough Elder or another GSZ target with a Naturalize activated ability WITHOUT a tap cost. That way, you can destroy the token, GSZ for the Elder, and from there play it by ear (if they don't bounce the Skull in response to the GSZ, you can activate the ability in response to that, and if they do, you can potentially followup with Liliana 2.0/Therapy).

Veteran Explorer is definitely one of the most crucial--and vulnerable--aspects of Nic Fit. Just gonna happen sometimes when you're just not gonna set one off because of bounce or exile effects. Definitely run at least 2 Sakura Tribe Elder in your 75 though: definitely useful against Swords to Plowshares or even Batterskull (block, sacrifice before damage is dealt: no damage so no lifelink).

Anyhow, from my experience, non-Scapewish Nic Fit is a special kind of control: our most powerful control elements (Therapy, GSZ and Deed) are fairly proactive, but powerful nonetheless. We also do not close out a game easily: instead, we frequently switch from the control role to the beatdown role and attempt to decrement the opponent's life total gradually (hence why Batterskull is the devil) before returning to the control role. Can't offer much more advice than that, as I'm still attempting to learn the various matchups myself.

Sylvan Ranger is also an option as a 2 drop to ramp (of sorts)

[Qweerios]

Non-white Pod decks now have their own Orzhov Pontiff. Look up Doomwake Giant!

[GtF]

Non-white Pod decks now have their own Orzhov Pontiff. Look up Doomwake Giant!

5 mana is a lot, but gives you the potential to "go off" with recurring nightmare.

[tadiou]

I wouldn't necessarily count out Thassa either as being the worst depending on the list... I've been running anything from Sea Gate Oracle & Edric, Spymaster of Trest in that (pod) 3 drop spot and I'm not entirely satisfied with either of them. Its an actual option in a pod list that wouldn't actually have a shot at turning her on...

Just an update. Played with Thassa, and pulled her out about 4 times in about 20 games.

Card is absolutely nuts in the grindy matches. It feels analogous to playing Sylvan Library a bit in the deck without the raw CA. Her unblockable ability was surprisingly relevant in the stalled boards, especially vs Death and Taxes. In matches that went on forever, the amount of gas she provided was ridiculous, although I can say I think I turned her on for approximately 2 turns. I did honestly forget that Sower taking a Baleful Strix does provide me 3 devotion. I do happen to play against a lot of fair decks, and in those matchups it's a hard to deal with card that provides a ton of value for 2U.

Doomwake Giant actually seems totally reasonable in the 5 drop slot in certain metas. Having a repeatable, onesided golgari charm just seems ridiculous. 5 mana isn't "a lot". I mean, it's a 5 drop, it's probably less valued in pod decks... but provides decent synergy with deed allowing you to get a 2-for-1 value in long games when you're stretched for removal.

[GtF]

Just an update. Played with Thassa, and pulled her out about 4 times in about 20 games.

Card is absolutely nuts in the grindy matches. It feels analogous to playing Sylvan Library a bit in the deck without the raw CA. Her unblockable ability was surprisingly relevant in the stalled boards, especially vs Death and Taxes. In matches that went on forever, the amount of gas she provided was ridiculous, although I can say I think I turned her on for approximately 2 turns. I did honestly forget that Sower taking a Baleful Strix does provide me 3 devotion. I do happen to play against a lot of fair decks, and in those matchups it's a hard to deal with card that provides a ton of value for 2U.

Doomwake Giant actually seems totally reasonable in the 5 drop slot in certain metas. Having a repeatable, onesided golgari charm just seems ridiculous. 5 mana isn't "a lot". I mean, it's a 5 drop, it's probably less valued in pod decks... but provides decent synergy with deed allowing you to get a 2-for-1 value in long games when you're stretched for removal.

Considering the matchups where it would be primarily used (D&T, Elves, Decks with True-Name Nemesis):
D&T plays ports and wastelands
Elves is a combo deck that can kill turn 3
Many True-name decks are tempo decks with some amount of stifle/wasteland/daze

The only true-name decks where I wouldn't consider 5 a lot are the versions of esper stoneblade running true-name. I'm not saying the card is bad, I'd definitely try it out, but at the same time, Noxious Ghoul already existed and no one was playing that (I realize this card is better, I'm just saying).

[tadiou]

Pod. That's pretty much where it's value lies. Most 5 drops that don't provide more value in non-pod lists won't make the cut anyway, but in pod lists, your synergy is crucial. It's also a 4/6 body. That's non-negligible as well out of 5 drops.

I don't think it's wrong to have enough methods to deal with TNN... but you're right, against Elves, it's pretty bad unless you can get to 5 mana (highly unlikely), but that's not your vector of attack against Elves anyway. But against D&T, it's durdle vs durdle. You're going to find 5ish lands or a Pod. Or both. Vs TNN, you're going to eventually outvalue their creatures if you're able to get the game going long enough, more value can't hurt. I don't know if it's necessarily where I want to be in regards to TNN, but it's something that's interesting.

The difference between Noxious Ghoul & Doomwake is that there's the enchantment sub-theme to gather more value. You're able to massacre occasionally through it. I think it'd be an upgrade here enough to consider actually playing. But yeah, I think it's interesting, but maybe not enough to warrant a spot.

[TheRealQuin]

I hate Batterskull as well ^_^, especially in Death and Taxes where Veteran Explorer gives them enough mana to reliable cast it and "protect" it. My advice against this would be to run Wickerbough Elder or another GSZ target with a Naturalize activated ability WITHOUT a tap cost. That way, you can destroy the token, GSZ for the Elder, and from there play it by ear (if they don't bounce the Skull in response to the GSZ, you can activate the ability in response to that, and if they do, you can potentially followup with Liliana 2.0/Therapy).

Veteran Explorer is definitely one of the most crucial--and vulnerable--aspects of Nic Fit. Just gonna happen sometimes when you're just not gonna set one off because of bounce or exile effects. Definitely run at least 2 Sakura Tribe Elder in your 75 though: definitely useful against Swords to Plowshares or even Batterskull (block, sacrifice before damage is dealt: no damage so no lifelink).

Anyhow, from my experience, non-Scapewish Nic Fit is a special kind of control: our most powerful control elements (Therapy, GSZ and Deed) are fairly proactive, but powerful nonetheless. We also do not close out a game easily: instead, we frequently switch from the control role to the beatdown role and attempt to decrement the opponent's life total gradually (hence why Batterskull is the devil) before returning to the control role. Can't offer much more advice than that, as I'm still attempting to learn the various matchups myself.

Thanks for all the advice! The back and forth beatdown/control role sounds like a pretty good way to describe the deck!

I think Wickerbough Elder would definitely help my game out against my super stoneforge-y meta, although I'm not really sure what to cut for him? I'm at 4-of Top and Punishing fire, and I think I could afford to make both of those 3-of's which opens up 2 slots to potentially be used for Wickerbough?

I hadn't really looked at Sakura Tribe Elder until you mentioned him and he looks pretty great for the deck! I'm having a little trouble figuring out where he fits in, though? I know the Scapewish build runs him in addition to 4x Explorer, but in the Punishing build is he more of a SB card to be brought in after seeing Swords to Plowshares, etc?

A few other questions:
-Does anybody stream this deck or are there any good videos? I'm curious to see some experienced people play it
-What makes for a keepable hand in Nic Fit? Therapy/Explorer?
-What does Nic Fit want to do to get around GY hate? Just Abrupt Decay RiP, etc?
-At the moment I'm running maybe 3 finishers--Primeval Titan, Thrun, Thragtusk, and I've had a lot of trouble with them getting countered/etc and then not drawing my others or GSZ's to tutor for them--Could the answer be to run another finisher or two? Specifically up Primeval Titan to a 2-of. Or perhaps add a Kessig Wolf Run?

[Qweerios]

Noxious Ghoul is a 3/3 for 3BB that -1/-1 all creatures. Doomwake is a 4/6 fir 4B that -1/-1 your opponent's board with added benefits with Recurring Nightmare.

[Tom4ik]

@TheRealQuin

This is the Punishing fire list I have been playing for the last 6 months. It has been doing pretty well.

4 Grove of the burn willows
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
3 wooded foothills
3 verdant catacombs
3 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run

4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan

4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's diving top
3 liliana of the veil
2 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 punishing fire
3 pernicious deed
1 garruk, primal hunter
3 abrupt decay

my sideboard changes, but as always it is really meta dependent. I play at the same place each week so I know what I am up against

2 surgical extraction
2 slaughter games
4 red elemental blast
2 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 blood moon


The blood moons are my method of dealing with all the lands players we seem to have. I played a 4 rounder last night and played patriot, u/w back to basic stone blade and lands 2 times for a 3-1 record. lost to one of the lands players. I also bring them in against delver decks as an additional bomb thats cheaper than smth like garruk or prime time.

Concerning your list - I love volrath stronghold. one of my favorite cards. but it really isnt needed in this type of list. its also made worse by possible grave hate post board. prime time into wolf run is probably better and would solve the 'issue' you say you have with closing games. id also run a garruk, either flip or primal over a second copy of prime time. you already have 4 gsz so you shouldnt need to run that many big guys. and landing garruk against control is usualy enough. especially if you have wolf run as well.

[TheRealQuin]

@TheRealQuin

This is the Punishing fire list I have been playing for the last 6 months. It has been doing pretty well.

4 Grove of the burn willows
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
3 wooded foothills
3 verdant catacombs
3 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run

4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan

4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's diving top
3 liliana of the veil
2 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 punishing fire
3 pernicious deed
1 garruk, primal hunter
3 abrupt decay

my sideboard changes, but as always it is really meta dependent. I play at the same place each week so I know what I am up against

2 surgical extraction
2 slaughter games
4 red elemental blast
2 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 blood moon


The blood moons are my method of dealing with all the lands players we seem to have. I played a 4 rounder last night and played patriot, u/w back to basic stone blade and lands 2 times for a 3-1 record. lost to one of the lands players. I also bring them in against delver decks as an additional bomb thats cheaper than smth like garruk or prime time.

Concerning your list - I love volrath stronghold. one of my favorite cards. but it really isnt needed in this type of list. its also made worse by possible grave hate post board. prime time into wolf run is probably better and would solve the 'issue' you say you have with closing games. id also run a garruk, either flip or primal over a second copy of prime time. you already have 4 gsz so you shouldnt need to run that many big guys. and landing garruk against control is usualy enough. especially if you have wolf run as well.

Thanks! That looks like a pretty great list--I'll sleeve up a Wolf Run and put Garruk Relentless in the MB and see how that goes tonight!

My main question would be how do you go about dealing with Batterskull? (my meta is stoneforge-crazy) A few people have recommended Wickerbough Elder or Acidic Slime, but I'm less sure about them.

I also think you're right and that it would be a little reactionary of me to start swapping things out for more Primeval Titans--4 GSZ should have me covered. I think I just got some bad draws on my first outing.

[tadiou]

My main question would be how do you go about dealing with Batterskull? (my meta is stoneforge-crazy) A few people have recommended Wickerbough Elder or Acidic Slime, but I'm less sure about them..

Mine too.

There's 2 ways to deal with Batterskull. 1) Hold your therapies (and/or flashbacks) until they play SFM. 2) Once Batterskull is in play. Use Acidic Slime. Wickerbough Elder is "okay" but, like Qasali Pridemage, requires activation cost. So you're essentially paying 6 mana when an Acidic Slime would get you the same sort of effect & game vs troublesome lands as well (assuming that you're indeed GSZing for either or). Basically, your best weapon vs Batterskull is to force them to discard it. Now, granted if it's late in the game, it gets difficult. But, when you're including a Wolf Run, you actually get a little joy from having a deathtouch trample +x/0 creature on the loose.

[Tom4ik]

@ Batterskull question -
I have never found batterskull a problem EXCEPT when it gets equipped to a TNN. SFM should never live to untap against a deck with 4 fire, 3 decay, 3 deed and 3 lily. if she does its ok because by that time its turn 4 or 5 and you should be able to assert control with things like deed and fires. obviously therapy and in my version TS also help as a way to get it from the hand. Thrun is also a way to block forever as most SFM do not have a way to actually get him off the board.

I'd recommend playing some more games against SFM -> Bskull because i am sure you will see that if thats the way the game goes you are heavily favored.

@ Garruk-flip
I like him and was running him for a few months but ended up replacing with PH. My thoughts -
- Garruk is boltable turn he comes down and makes a token (not good value)
- He does not kill many things we already have problems killing
- 2/2 and 1/1 dtouch wolves are worse than 3/3's
- Decayable after flipping

+ way to kill explorer in a pinch
+ 1 mana cheaper, and only 1 green means less problems with playing it at exactly 4 mana as opposed to 3 green out of 5
+ great synergy at tutoring creatures up

after all that i decided that the times i cast garruk i usually could/would be casting PH and PH is just a lot better, actual CA much quicker and 3/3 offers up a lot more to offer rather than spamming 2/2s.

Just some thoughts but i'd like to hear how you like flip garruk and let me know if there is situations when he is played where one or other would be the best call as i could be converted back as i do love me some play witness sac witness go and get another witness to chain all of your bombs out of your deck.

BTW, seems most ppl posting lately have been on pod lists. Is this due to the sideboard that blue pod offers or that the main deck is better? I feel like pod is slightly worse against fair decks than the fires list but you get an improved combo game? or is it that pfire is not what you want to be doing in this meta???

[tadiou]

TW, seems most ppl posting lately have been on pod lists. Is this due to the sideboard that blue pod offers or that the main deck is better? I feel like pod is slightly worse against fair decks than the fires list but you get an improved combo game? or is it that pfire is not what you want to be doing in this meta???

It's different. I think. It, like pretty much every nic fit list, is good against fair decks, because your fair plays are better than theirs usually. There's a lot of action with the Blue Pod decks (well, just all of the Pod decks), where you're able to manouever a lot of situations that I think both the Scapeshift/Punishing lists wouldn't be able to get out of, and to be fair, won't get into sometimes. The exchange is a much higher skill cap and precognition to how you're going to win the game. There's a brutal amount of scenarios to be had and combinations to get that you don't just get with using GSZ because Pod, like Pod does, rolls a cascading decision tree. I think it plays less the control deck than any previous incarnations of Nic Fit, but, in turn allows you to be a little more proactive with the board state and roll over decks because of the ridiculous amount of value that it can gain. It snowballs much like Shardless BUG does, but in a fair way.

[Tom4ik]

@ Pod Lists

That seems a fair assessment. In my opinion ( I have not played Pod but I have played Vet decks almost exclusively in legacy for 1.5 years now) I just cannot see what situations I would want to be pod over smth like Pfire. Scapewish seems different as your just trying to combo kill with a beatdown back up (similar to elves). I was more trying to get at what are the differences in matchups.

Nic fit in general is good against fair and a dog to combo. that much is obvious. I am just thinking, say i am heading to an SCG with a nic fit deck, why pod over fire? I think the only real reasons are you want blue SB cards over red (Rebs + games being the biggest red additions) or the idea is that pfire isnt good. If pfire is good then I think that list is far and away a more consistent and powerful deck.

This is nothing against pod, its the version we usually see at scg if we get a match. I am really am just trying to distill down what the pod -> junk -> scapewish -> fire -> bug versions try to do that is different. All these decks change certain matchups slightly worse or better.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Mine too.

There's 2 ways to deal with Batterskull. 1) Hold your therapies (and/or flashbacks) until they play SFM. 2) Once Batterskull is in play. Use Acidic Slime. Wickerbough Elder is "okay" but, like Qasali Pridemage, requires activation cost. So you're essentially paying 6 mana when an Acidic Slime would get you the same sort of effect & game vs troublesome lands as well (assuming that you're indeed GSZing for either or). Basically, your best weapon vs Batterskull is to force them to discard it. Now, granted if it's late in the game, it gets difficult. But, when you're including a Wolf Run, you actually get a little joy from having a deathtouch trample +x/0 creature on the loose.

Therapy or other discard after Stoneforge is definitely the best way to deal with Batterskull, but if you dont draw into discard and it hits the field, it becomes a lot trickier, especially if they have the mana to protect it.

I suggested something with an activation cost like Pridemage or Wickerbough because you can GSZ for them and activate the ability in response to them bouncing the Batterskull. If they respond to the GSZ, you can get something else for value and then use Therapy to force them to discard it.

In other news, Thassa has replaced Jace 2.0 in my list... Wallet Sculptor just hasnt been pulling his weight and GodTop is really good.

[Megadeus]

@ Pod Lists

That seems a fair assessment. In my opinion ( I have not played Pod but I have played Vet decks almost exclusively in legacy for 1.5 years now) I just cannot see what situations I would want to be pod over smth like Pfire. Scapewish seems different as your just trying to combo kill with a beatdown back up (similar to elves). I was more trying to get at what are the differences in matchups.

Nic fit in general is good against fair and a dog to combo. that much is obvious. I am just thinking, say i am heading to an SCG with a nic fit deck, why pod over fire? I think the only real reasons are you want blue SB cards over red (Rebs + games being the biggest red additions) or the idea is that pfire isnt good. If pfire is good then I think that list is far and away a more consistent and powerful deck.

This is nothing against pod, its the version we usually see at scg if we get a match. I am really am just trying to distill down what the pod -> junk -> scapewish -> fire -> bug versions try to do that is different. All these decks change certain matchups slightly worse or better.

Pod can also come down early and then just start tutoring things unlike with GSZ which is much worse vs like Spell Pierce or Daze. Also it is less reliant (in a way) on the GY

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Pod Lists

That seems a fair assessment. In my opinion ( I have not played Pod but I have played Vet decks almost exclusively in legacy for 1.5 years now) I just cannot see what situations I would want to be pod over smth like Pfire. Scapewish seems different as your just trying to combo kill with a beatdown back up (similar to elves). I was more trying to get at what are the differences in matchups.

Nic fit in general is good against fair and a dog to combo. that much is obvious. I am just thinking, say i am heading to an SCG with a nic fit deck, why pod over fire? I think the only real reasons are you want blue SB cards over red (Rebs + games being the biggest red additions) or the idea is that pfire isnt good. If pfire is good then I think that list is far and away a more consistent and powerful deck.

This is nothing against pod, its the version we usually see at scg if we get a match. I am really am just trying to distill down what the pod -> junk -> scapewish -> fire -> bug versions try to do that is different. All these decks change certain matchups slightly worse or better.

ScapeWish is the only variant that can end games quickly with Burning Wish into Scapeshift for the win. Rector probably has the best game versus combo simply because of Nether Void and Moat. Various Pod lists are somewhere in between: they aim to outvalue their opponent.

As far as classic Nic Fit (including BUG, Junk, Jund, and straight BG), I feel it depends on your meta. Junk has Swords, Vindicate, Sigarda (Flier!), and Pridemage; BUG has Brainstorm and Thassa in the main, and Force of Wills in the side for the combo matchup. Jund has Punishing Fire, Huntmaster/Ravager of the Fells and REBs/Slaughter Games.

Straight has . . . Hymn? I have a feeling straight Nic Fit probably has some untapped potential with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and possibly wasteland ... maybe some sort of Pox+Nic Fit shell?

EDIT: Guess I didn't really answer your question: classic versions all have their perks and quirks in certain matchups. Blue has the best ability to filter their draws with Brainstorm, which in turn enables a greater access to GSZ targets and other 1-2 of spells. I run blue for the consistency, though in certain matchups it definitely becomes grindy as hell. Red, however, has Slaughter Games in addition to Surgical Extraction, which is just brutal against other forms of control (particularly threat-lite ones such as Miracles and other Nic Fit). White . . . I honestly have no idea where this fits.

[tadiou]

In other news, Thassa has replaced Jace 2.0 in my list... Wallet Sculptor just hasnt been pulling his weight and GodTop is really good.

She's pretty awesome. I think I played her 3 times in 4 rounds last night, and she made the games I was behind closer, and closed out games I was ahead faster.

Three Shardless Agents on the board vs DRS, Thassa, Thragtusk and a Baleful Strix? Without Thassa, that game would have gone way longer, with Thassa, it was over in 3 turns. It's a way to break parity without losing power necessarily.

Went 3-1 last night, with my only loss being vs UW Miracles (go figure). Lost to a Karakas-Venser thumping & Jace. One of the meh-parts of the deck is the inability to interact with Jace when necessary. Game 1, I had Thassa out, but wasn't able to land a threat without it being forced or bounced or plowed or whatever. Died to Jace with 2 Deeds on the board. I couldn't die to Angels. Just Jace (or Clique). Game 2, I was actually in the game, sorta. I was being Venser locked out without enough spells to get past Venser. I had deed in play, but a birthing pod, and I figured my best way to get past his Jace & Venser would be to resolve that Glen Elendra (I think I had 10 lands), pod it into Thragtusk and get anti-Jace value. Didn't actually come to pass. Ended up deeding for 4, blowing up his Venser & my pod. Brainstormed mainphase and put back Recurring Nightmares on top and Deed #2 on bottom. And then he played a top next turn and I drew the nightmare, and then he topped, Entreated and crushed me there. Bad brainstorm action. Thassa helps in the grind, but it's so difficult to deal with a resolved Jace.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

She's pretty awesome. I think I played her 3 times in 4 rounds last night, and she made the games I was behind closer, and closed out games I was ahead faster.

Three Shardless Agents on the board vs DRS, Thassa, Thragtusk and a Baleful Strix? Without Thassa, that game would have gone way longer, with Thassa, it was over in 3 turns. It's a way to break parity without losing power necessarily.

Went 3-1 last night, with my only loss being vs UW Miracles (go figure). Lost to a Karakas-Venser thumping & Jace. One of the meh-parts of the deck is the inability to interact with Jace when necessary. Game 1, I had Thassa out, but wasn't able to land a threat without it being forced or bounced or plowed or whatever. Died to Jace with 2 Deeds on the board. I couldn't die to Angels. Just Jace (or Clique). Game 2, I was actually in the game, sorta. I was being Venser locked out without enough spells to get past Venser. I had deed in play, but a birthing pod, and I figured my best way to get past his Jace & Venser would be to resolve that Glen Elendra (I think I had 10 lands), pod it into Thragtusk and get anti-Jace value. Didn't actually come to pass. Ended up deeding for 4, blowing up his Venser & my pod. Brainstormed mainphase and put back Recurring Nightmares on top and Deed #2 on bottom. And then he played a top next turn and I drew the nightmare, and then he topped, Entreated and crushed me there. Bad brainstorm action. Thassa helps in the grind, but it's so difficult to deal with a resolved Jace.

I dont know why, but Miracles gets a lot more bang for their buck from Jace 2.0.

Anyhow for Jace, I suggest running Tar Pit if youre on BUG and Timbermare or Thrun if youre on POD (Timbermare can be both removed and countered, but can also provide some etb value and can kill Jace the turn it comes down even after a single+2 activation)

[firebadmattgood]

I play BUG pod and run a singleton maelstrom pulse (instead of the third deed), Thrun and creeping tar pit in the main. They are all outs to Jace, but offer additional utility besides.

[Megadeus]

For whomever may be interested, I posted a miscut Korean Veteran Explorer on eBay. Feel free to check it out. Figured I have no realistic need for it

[tadiou]

I play BUG pod and run a singleton maelstrom pulse (instead of the third deed), Thrun and creeping tar pit in the main. They are all outs to Jace, but offer additional utility besides.

Maelstrom Pulse was exactly what I was missing as an out to... a lot of things.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Maelstrom Pulse was exactly what I was missing as an out to... a lot of things.

Maelstrom Pulse is indeed a good card, but I wouldn't cut Deed down by 1 for its inclusion. EDIT: What I mean, is that I'd cut something else before Deed: Deed is just that good, and it overlaps quite a bit with Pulse in terms of token destruction.) Maybe cut the GSZs in your list if you don't rely on them that much?

May I ask what else you were having trouble with?

[tadiou]

I ran 3 deeds. 2 MB, 1 SB. I feel comfortable that 2 deeds would be OK for the added ability to have an ability to interact with Planeswalkers. I also replaced my Man-o'-War with Venser, Shaper Savant as well, because I realized that's probably another decent out to planeswalkers as well as being nice in the S&T Matchups as well as Dark Depths, and works very nicely in the Recurring Nightmare fun-times. Why I'd even consider it? I know Miracles is a terrible matchup, but I'm looking to shore up what I can. I rarely ever lose to Entreat vs them. I know how and when to sit on my Deed against them, how resolving Glen Elendra's really good, but the decks lack of interactivity with a resolved Jace is positively painful.

I'm thinking of when I want 3 deed, what matchups I want it in, and they're mostly D&T, Merfolk, Elves, UB Tezz, or Gobbos. Goblins and Merfolk I usually feel are decent matchups and don't get much better with a 3rd Deed. D&T is a matchup where I really want it (well, most Stoneforge matchups), but I figured the combined abilities of Doomwake Giant (which has actually been pretty decent in the matchups where I've played it from the board), Golgari Charm, 2 Deeds + Maelstrom Pulse has some value. Pulse has value in addition to Deed in the sense that it's actual targeted removal, on boardstates where you sort of want to keep your DRS's it makes sense. Actually, it's cutting the spot of the 2nd Golgari Charm as well. Replace a Deed + Golgari Charm with Maelstrom Pulse + Doomwake Giant. It

The other cut is Notion Thief for me, because, as much as I want to think, it's the biggest blowout, my ability to beat BUG variants hasn't been bad at all. Most of the time I don't care if they resolve Brainstorm/Ancestral Vision midgame (when I would cast Notion Thief) because they're encroaching on territory where it's impossible for them to actually get ahead. It's also really good vs Show and Tell decks, I just haven't found a card I want in there to replace it. I don't know what matchup I want to add another card to. Honestly it might just be a Phyrexian Revoker as a catchall slot. If it was possible to actually run a Trinket Mage package, I'd rather do that (with Pithing Needle & Nihil Spellbomb), but the space is just non-existent in the board. The other option would be to run that Creeping Tar Pit in the side, but that's probably near the bottom of the list.


2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Pestermite
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Brainstorm

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Notion Thief
1 Golgari Charm
2 Swan Song
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I admit im very unfamiliar with pod lists, but i believe ya could cut Underground Sea for Tar Pit. Not sure enough to suggest auto replacement but something for testing

[MD.Ghost]

After 3 weeks with 3 tournament and little adjustment i have won a 25 players tournament yesterday.

Matchups:

2:0 vs Manaless Dredge (Deathrite, EE, Tormod's Crypt)
2:1 vs Sneak Show (G1 a good portion of luck with Pithing Needle + Sower of Temptation)
2:0 vs Jund Lands (Needle, Tormod's Crypt and active Pod)
2:1 vs Miracles (i wasted G1 but gain advantage G2+3, Needle and Glen are Key)
1:1 vs Grixis (we shared the same car so we draw, we played for price 1 or 2 and he got me 2:1 with multiple stifle)

After score, i was still higher ranked and take the first place. As the weeks before, BUG Pod is very funny, but you need enough concentration for all the decision-trees and i still made some mistakes. (more and more respect for Svknoe 10nd GP place!)

Mainboard:
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw
1 Trinket Mage
1 Acidic Slime

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Recurring Nightmare

Sideboard
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

Sadly the deck has only a few flex slots so we can't use all the available options. For the "weak" 3drop Slot (besides Kitchen Finks and Eternal Witness), i chosed 1 Trinket Mage. He is blue and you gain a little utility package (and with Pod-Chain a way to tutor for it). I haven't found space for Decay, so 1 Engineered Explosives was an automatic choice as a removal (it fill the gap, if deed is to slow or blocked with revoker/needle, or you won't kill your dudes), but the best slot was conquered from 1 Pithing Needle. Nobody expected a maindeck needle. You can shut down so many problems (Thespian Stage, Sensei's Diving Top, Sneak Attack, Equipment and all the random Stuff like Grindstone or some Utility Creatures).

I like the new toy "Doomwake Giant" and will definitively test it. Acidic Slime is the weakest 5 drop, but last tournament he was good enough (killed 1 Thespian and 1 Sneak Attack).

Main Problem for this deck is, that (most of the time) you only attack with 1 or 2 power dudes and haven't enough pressure. Giant brings a 4/6 body, which isn't so bad in legacy and so he can apply some pressure on its own.

-----------------------------

@Scapeshift: I definitively supports "Ralfs" Build with 1 Karakas - it feels good to surprise some unfair matchups with an additional out against Sneak Show, Reanimate, or Marit Large (with BUG Pod you have Sower, Image or Fleshbag Marrauder to fill the gap).

[Nihilis]

Can't say I agree with the Karakas in Scapeshift. I've been playing this version for well over a year now, and from experience I can tell you that the manabase is the achilles heel of this deck. That's why a lot of the original utility lands (phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold, kessig wolfrun,...) got removed for fetchlands, making you have to mulligan less. Going back one step and adding yet another land that produces no relevant mana seems like a bad idea, certainly considering the marginal benefits that it brings.

[Ralf]

Can't say I agree with the Karakas in Scapeshift. I've been playing this version for well over a year now, and from experience I can tell you that the manabase is the achilles heel of this deck. That's why a lot of the original utility lands (phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold, kessig wolfrun,...) got removed for fetchlands, making you have to mulligan less. Going back one step and adding yet another land that produces no relevant mana seems like a bad idea, certainly considering the marginal benefits that it brings.

It depends of your metagame.
The Scape list posted p.343 is featuring a lone "Phyrexian tower". I use a lone "karakas" in this particular spot as well as other people would use a fourth fetch.

As long as you are keeping at least 14 lands which can produce green by turn 1 in your deck, you are good to go.
Some like it better with 15 "forest".

I think the only MU where color matters is the one which needs a "swamp" in your opening hand, then with the posted list (and with mine) you've got only 10 "swamps" instead of 11.
But by design, if you wanna play T1 -> swamp -> discard, I'm pretty sure Scape should not be your first deck pick.

Adding Karakas was like "two birds, one stone" in my meta. Why ?
Without a lot of commitment (just one card), you have now 2 cards in your MD which answers S&T into a fatty.
1) Karakas
2) Primeval Titan (grab the karakas)

Not to mention odd blowouts against unfair deck (reanimator, marit lage etc...)

[gigapatrick]

Hello all,

This is my first time posting on The Source. I'm a veteran poster at mtgsalvation, but their Nic Fit thread gets very little activity, so I haven't gotten a whole lot of responses to my queries.

Just a couple of questions.

After a long time playing Pox, I've decided to retire my prison list and pick up a new deck. Nic Fit and all its variations seem very intriguing to me, especially the Birthing Pod lists. I've seen several versions of Bug Pod doing well at larger events, as well as Punishing Fit lists and Scapewish lists also. I think, at this point, I'm most inclined to build a Junk list (since I already own the duals for it), so I'm wondering: how viable do you veteran Nic Fitters think a Junk Pod list could be?

Here's a possible list (which I've proxied and tested a little bit):

Creatures

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Armada Wurm

Spells

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare

Lands

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sadistic Hypnotist hasn't seemed extremely good to me, and Armada Wurm (similar to but worse than Broodmate Dragon) may just be unnecessary, but it is nice sometimes to have a huge monster to fetch with Green Sun's Zenith.

Board (incomplete and inchoate)

Most Likelies
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm

Possibles
2 Choke
2 Cranial Extraction (a crappier version of Slaughter Games, of course, and probably not viable)
2 Mindbreak Trap

I understand that Nic Fit has good matchups against fair decks and bad matchups against combo decks, so the board should mostly be dedicated to defeating combo. So, what are the best strategies for this deck when approaching a combo-heavy meta? What cards might I be overlooking that could improve this type of matchup?

Obviously Bug Pod, with its four Forces in the board, should have a (relatively) decent combo matchup, but what do non-blue Nic Fit decks do to defeat combo?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Sincerely,
gigapatrick

[Arsenal]

I was buying Melira Pod for Modern and noticed that I was $50 away from building BUG Pod Fit in Legacy, so I bit the bullet and now have another backup deck. Seems interesting, but is the Murderous Redcap really worth that slot? I understand the interactions with Redcap and the various sacrifice outlets (Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, etc), but it still looks underwhelming on paper.

This is the list I'm starting from:

1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Birthing Pod

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

[MD.Ghost]

I was buying Melira Pod for Modern and noticed that I was $50 away from building BUG Pod Fit in Legacy, so I bit the bullet and now have another backup deck. Seems interesting, but is the Murderous Redcap really worth that slot? I understand the interactions with Redcap and the various sacrifice outlets (Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, etc), but it still looks underwhelming on paper.

In my opinion, Redcap is really good. Persist is ideal for Pod-Chains (or Therapy etc.). BUG Pod has the "weakest" (but good enough) matchup against fair decks and is light on removal. So you need options like Redcap to fight creatures. Remember, a Redcap can also shoot down a planeswalker, or kill your opponent if you face moat or a scary board situation. Sure - it is better, if you can abuse it with Nightmare, Therapy, Pod or Stronghold.

The Pod-Engine is very different, you dont fight back with 1on1 Removal, you must use various creatures:

-kill (Big)Stuff with Shriekmaw
-steel something with Sower of Temptation (and sac the enemy creature with Pod, Therapy etc. if needed)
-copy something with Phantasmal Image
-shoot small utlity dudes (a lot of in legacy ;) ) down with Redcap
-block stuff to dead with Strix

So this decks plays very different, you don't cast a beater and fire removal spells around it to keep the path clear. Its quite complicated with all the decision-trees, but this deck can have a lot of answers for most situations.

EDIT:
@Arsenal - deck list:
Looks like a normal shell, but i recommend a third 3drop, because you often chain from the bottom and also want stuff for the early game. The deck can work without a third 5drop, but i would never touch the amount of 3 and 4 drops. As i said, you haven't enought space for all the options.

I think you have 3 flex slots (see Svknoe GP List):
-you can cut the 1off Zenith (not so much green creatures)
-you can cut the third 5drop (in my opinion Acidic Slime is the weakest here, but you lose a tutorable out against some permanents)
-you can cut the 1off Decay (because 1off is very random, so two would be better, or you can put them into side)

Last weeks i also cutted 1 Recurring Nightmare for 1 Liliana, because the Planeswaker Lady is strong on its own - but last tournament i give Nightmare a try - it was ok - its a bomb for lategame (to chain it 2-3 times a turn) or against discard (Hymn etc.) to fight back if you have lost some big stuff. But most established lists run the black enchantment anyway, so it will work good enough (and remember the new Doomwake Giant with it ;) )

[Arsenal]

I'm running 2 maindeck Abrupt Decay. With Acidic Slime, I like having a tutorable answer to problematic cards that I can't otherwise deal with once they're resolved; Slime also can hold off a fatty from swinging through until they find their removal for Slime. I suppose I could cut the 1-of GSZ, but I've always viewed 1 GSZ + 3 Pod as the 4-card engine that makes this deck go. And you're correct, this deck isn't overflowing with green creatures, but that's why I only run 1 GSZ; GSZ is also an out on a Revoker/Needle/Null Rod on my Pod engine.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Alright: gonna be running the current list (or some variation of it: need to find someone who can loan me the Forces for the event and possibly trade a Bayou for my extra Tropical Island) at SCG Cincy on May 4th, and any insight y'all could give regarding that meta and/or my list would be greatly appreciated.

(60/15) BUG Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Timbermare
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
///
4 Force of Will
1 Master Biomancer
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sakura Tribe Elder

[tadiou]

Can't say I agree with the Karakas in Scapeshift. I've been playing this version for well over a year now, and from experience I can tell you that the manabase is the achilles heel of this deck. That's why a lot of the original utility lands (phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold, kessig wolfrun,...) got removed for fetchlands, making you have to mulligan less. Going back one step and adding yet another land that produces no relevant mana seems like a bad idea, certainly considering the marginal benefits that it brings.

It's pretty much the heel for most of the versions, and why the 4th DRS is absolutely clutch in most situations.


I was buying Melira Pod for Modern and noticed that I was $50 away from building BUG Pod Fit in Legacy, so I bit the bullet and now have another backup deck. Seems interesting, but is the Murderous Redcap really worth that slot? I understand the interactions with Redcap and the various sacrifice outlets (Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, etc), but it still looks underwhelming on paper.

Blows up a DRS in the DRS wars (they happen), flipped Delvers, late game Stoneforge Mystics, and there's a lot of great interaction between persist creatures & phantasmal image especially with show and tell. Gives you more targeted interaction with creatures, which is never bad. Oh, and kill -1'd jaces.


I'm running 2 maindeck Abrupt Decay. With Acidic Slime, I like having a tutorable answer to problematic cards that I can't otherwise deal with once they're resolved; Slime also can hold off a fatty from swinging through until they find their removal for Slime. I suppose I could cut the 1-of GSZ, but I've always viewed 1 GSZ + 3 Pod as the 4-card engine that makes this deck go. And you're correct, this deck isn't overflowing with green creatures, but that's why I only run 1 GSZ; GSZ is also an out on a Revoker/Needle/Null Rod on my Pod engine.

GSZ i don't think is absolutely necessary in pod decks, but it's a card you have to balance out. I think if you're running cards like Acidic Slime, it's better, but if you're running smaller, more castable cards (Uktabi/V. Shaman), I think it's not too bad. I've cut it, but I'd see where I'd want to run it.


Last weeks i also cutted 1 Recurring Nightmare for 1 Liliana, because the Planeswaker Lady is strong on its own - but last tournament i give Nightmare a try - it was ok - its a bomb for lategame (to chain it 2-3 times a turn) or against discard (Hymn etc.) to fight back if you have lost some big stuff. But most established lists run the black enchantment anyway, so it will work good enough (and remember the new Doomwake Giant with it ;) )

That's what Recurring Nightmare is for. You create board position that's way too much for your opponent to deal with. You bait their DRS out, you slam that Recurring Nightmare so hard and so fast, they'll scoop 'em up.

[firebadmattgood]

Alright: gonna be running the current list (or some variation of it: need to find someone who can loan me the Forces for the event and possibly trade a Bayou for my extra Tropical Island) at SCG Cincy on May 4th, and any insight y'all could give regarding that meta and/or my list would be greatly appreciated.

(60/15) BUG Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Timbermare
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
///
4 Force of Will
1 Master Biomancer
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sakura Tribe Elder

4 pernicious deed + 1 dryad arbor = wtf? I also don't like timbermare at all, especially when you're already running 2 creeping tar pits. Why no Thrun?

[pfiremc13]

If dryad arbor is used to play pernicious deed, it did its job.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 pernicious deed + 1 dryad arbor = wtf? I also don't like timbermare at all, especially when you're already running 2 creeping tar pits. Why no Thrun?

Like pfire said, as long as Arbor provides some mana, it has done its job. Arbor is included just to help with certain scenarios within the combo matchup.

Also, ive been fairly unimpressed by Thrun as a whole lately especially when GSZd for against counterspells.

[firebadmattgood]

I'm not seeing it. Want to walk me through that logic? Is it just for the turn 2 deed?

[pfiremc13]

If you really need to play deed early, dryad arbor is great as it helps you ramp into deed. If you don't need deed early, you can wait and arbor allows you to ramp into other things in the meantime.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm not seeing it. Want to walk me through that logic? Is it just for the turn 2 deed?

Two important aspects to any combo or aggro-combo (i.e. Elves!, possibly Affinity?) matchup: they typically don't have the mana disruption where Dryad Arbor, Bayou, and Tropical Island would normally be a liability, and they typically win fast enough to warrant early contingency plans.

Although an early deed is great against Empty the Warren tokens and idle LEDs and Petals, the biggest boon from having 4 GSZ + 1 Arbor is that against combo I have 12 one-drop creatures (4 Vet, 4 DRS, 4 GSZ into Arbor) to flashback Cabal Therapy with, making Cabal Therapy much more reliable in the event that it does whiff the first time.

[Arianrhod]

I've been quiet lately -- my life has been pretty busy. Here's some updated decklists with anecdotes.

The Classic: Scapewish



Config 1: Anti-fair (Deathblade, Jund, Shardless, etc)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

Config 2: Anti-Tempo (Delver-heavy meta)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize

Config 3: Anti-combo

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Slaughter Games

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Slaughter Games
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm


Depending on the expected metagame, these are my three builds of Scapewish. They're all pretty close to one another really, it's just a few flex spots between the different subversions.

Thunian Fit:



4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Spike Feeder
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Spike Weaver
2 Academy Rector
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Living Wish

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Mirari's Wake

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gavony Township

SB:
1 Nether Void
1 Humility
2 Thoughtseize
2 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Carpet of Flowers


I won a small local event a few weeks ago with Thune, good for almost 500 in store credit. That version had the Mindcensors in the sideboard -- they greatly impressed me, so I moved them maindeck. Moat was so awful that it's now been cut from the deck entirely. In its place is Mirari's Wake, which chunks up our small utility creatures a bit while enabling the inevitable finish of mise-Wish into Emrakul. It also provides a few other small synergies across the board that aren't immediately obvious. For example, with Wake out, you can respond to removal on your Spike by going infinite (assume they let you remove the 1st counter. they remove it in resp, you remove the 2nd counter and go off -- the spike won't die as it is now a 1/1 instead of a 0/0).

The Menagerie



4 Veteran Explorer
2 Birds of Paradise

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness

2 Restoration Angel
1 Academy Rector
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Obstinate Baloth

1 Acidic Slime
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Thragtusk
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1 Sun Titan
1 Progenitor Mimic

4 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Cabal Therapy

4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Mountain

//SB
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinket Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Notion Thief
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Negate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Slaughter Games


I haven't updated the sideboard on this for a while, but I wanted to say that I did actually play this at the last 40duals at Tales of Adventure. I was bored and felt like having fun, so I updated the old 5-color Pod that I originally designed as a joke when everyone was arguing about which colors of Pod were best. I decided that I was going to try to prove that as long as you take 4 Explorers and 4 Therapies and built your deck remotely competitively, you can still do well.

I ended up going 3-3 and dropping before the last round because my car wanted to leave early. I beat Sneak and Show r1 on camera, lost to Death and Taxes in an insanely close matchup wherein I never saw a Pod ever, beat Esperblade, lost to a pair of lucky topdecks across two games by another Sneak and Show, and I can't remember the other two matchups anymore. The deck was actually not that bad at all. Legacy decks are ill-equipped to handle sudden Pod chains for victory -- I remember catching several opponents offguard as I instantly killed them out of nowhere from unassuming 1-drop + 2-drop board states. Also, Progenitor Mimic is a god.

Mana Confluence makes the deck much better. In the version that I played at ToA, I had Deathrites with a fetch/dual mana base which had 2 City of Brass and 2 Reflecting Pool alongside 2 forest + 1 of each other basic. The manabase was "okay," but I definitely suffered sometimes. Mana Confluence gives us enough rainbow lands that we can abandon fetches and duals entirely, and run a rainbow+basics manabase which should eradicate any mana problems. Deathrites became Birds because of the lack of fetches.

The sideboard needs updating to be less troll. I decided that I wanted to run 15 1-ofs, so I set it up that way purely because I wanted to. Some of it was amazing, like Orzhov Pontiff, the god, and some of it was terrible. Being able to run Slaughter Games alongside Negate/Flusterstorm alongside haetbears/Glen Elendra is absolutely bonkers good though. I've never felt so favored against Sneak and Show in my life.

Gifts:



4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
1 Unburial Rites

4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

2 Pernicious Deed

2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains


This one is experimental. Longtime members of this forum will know how long I've been trying to make Gifts work. The problem has always been that we didn't have a good thing to Gifts/Rites up. RuneScarred -> Nightmare was adorable, but too clunky. It didn't -actually- win the game. I realized that Priemval -> Stage/Depths is the 1-card combo that we needed for Gifts to function. I'm a huge fan of Kiora at the moment in general, but she also helps here because if they solve your 20/20 somehow, you can Loam back both pieces, -1 Kiora, and play both of them to go off again the next turn. Coiling Oracle is over SakuraTribe here because of Force of Will count. It's also really easy to set up Oracles with Brainstorm / Jace. I really want some Courser of Kruphixes in this deck, because that guy is pretty awesome and plays well with Brainstorm, but space is pretty limited. The deck is also currently suffering from "what next" syndrome -- as in, you Gifts for Titan/Rites, now what do you use subsequent Gifts for?

It's possible that since this deck has a sufficient blue-count (22 iirc), Griselbrand may actually just be correct.

Anyway, that's what I've been up to / where my brews are at for the moment. If you have thoughts / questions, leave them and I'll reply as able.

[tadiou]

Thunian Fit list and the Menagerie lists are both really interesting looking to play.

Gifts though. I don't know. I think when you start playing gifts, you're almost wanting to move more towards a maverick/lands.dec sort of direction, because there's a fair amount of redundancy in the MB, it's tough to get good value out of your Gifts after the first one unless you start naming lands and loam, but that doesn't play as well with the VE/CT engine either. Like, if you're going Gifts combo, part of me thinks that you'd want to play at least another impact card to send to the yard, maybe 4 is too many gifts? I think it probably would play better with the sideboard, but is it good enough? I play a lot of gifts combo in modern, and primeval titan just doesn't seem like enough impact to make it worth it. Iona would be, or even Sun Titan, but those both require a much more heavy white component than what's given. Grizbeezl might be too, mostly because it'd play more like reanimator once you did that in drawing countermagic to defend the boardstate as the draw 7 puts you ahead in cards, but not necessarily on board, where hand resources aren't as powerful for us as say it would be in reanimator or tin fins or sneak and show.

It's interesting, but I think it'd probably want to move out of the nic fit shell and more to a 4 color maverick-esque deck. There's a certain amount of delicious power in VE/CT, but my gut tells me the nonbo interactions with gifts make it difficult to get good value out of that.

Also, speaking of 40 duals, is anyone going to Binghamton (NY) for the 40 duals?

[Arianrhod]

My goal with the first sketch of the Gifts deck was to keep it as linear and streamlined as possible. 3 Gifts is entirely possibly correct, as is maybe running 2 Force main 2 side, or who knows. There's definitely space to be opened up for more tech. I think that Primeval -> Depths/Stage (or 2 tar pits even) is 100% impactful enough. I don't disagree that having a second target would be very nice, but it comes into a question of which one, as you touched on. Elesh and Iona are both sideboard options. Sun Titan requires a different build. Consecrated Sphinx has all the drawbacks of Griselbrand with none of the advantages. Frost Titan doesn't do enough. Etc etc.

I'll be at the 40 duals in Bing.

[firebadmattgood]

The gifts deck needs a wasteland and raven's crime. Loam lock + pitch two cards a turn seems like a good way to beat miracles, which is otherwise a pretty tough matchup for nic fit decks.

[XdeckX]

Wasteland is pretty useless against miracles. Same goes for ravens crime if they have CBtop going.
They just need to stick jace and terminus our dudes. Waste and crime do nothing to stop this

But against other decks wasteland and ravens crime are both very viable cards.

[Arianrhod]

Wasteland didn't make the cut because the deck is already high on lands that don't make mana (colored, anyway) thanks to depths/stage. Furthermore, act of nic fitting gives your opponent 1-2 basics on average, which helps them evade wastelock. I'm usually a fan of a Waste in Living Wish versions because sometimes you need to take out a problematic utility land, like a Karakas or a Tabernacle or something. I could see squeezing a waste in, but I wouldn't run it with the intent of wastelocking. It'd just be for like random Karakases or Maze of Iths or whatnot.

Raven's Crime is useless vs Miracles, as is most discard. They can live entirely off of their Sensei's Top to not detriment. In some ways they actually prefer it, I think.

[pfiremc13]

]I won a small local event a few weeks ago with Thune, good for almost 500 in store credit. That version had the Mindcensors in the sideboard -- they greatly impressed me, so I moved them maindeck.


Tell me more about the mindcensors, I might test them.

[tons of fun]

y.jpg

[tadiou]

Tell me more about the mindcensors, I might test them.

If they're half as good in legacy as they are in a format where 40% of the decks play lightning bolt. It's probably a really good card. There's literally hundreds of good applications for it, other than just de facto wastelanding your opponent.

[Arianrhod]

If they're half as good in legacy as they are in a format where 40% of the decks play lightning bolt. It's probably a really good card. There's literally hundreds of good applications for it, other than just de facto wastelanding your opponent.

They stopped ANT in its tracks (Infernal Tutor) while providing a clock, and they also made Aluren's life a lot harder when I played vs that. I boarded them in vs a few other matchups but never saw them. They give a good maindeck hate option for a lot of decks in the format, while still providing general utility and value even where they aren't good. Worst case they're a 2/1 flyer which can block a Delver. You might get a Stoneforge with it, or even just the traditional "fetch -> wasteland" is still value. Also very reasonable against things like Elves, which have proven to be problematic.

We'll see how they go -- this will be my first event with them maindeck, but I think that, at least on paper, they definitely look good enough.

Being a flash creature also plays well with Gavony since you can make a 3/2 out of nowhere, and costing 3 mana is perfect since it opens up t1 therapy t2 explorer fb therapy with 3 mana open. That's a curve that will wreck combo and annoy a lot of fair decks.

[tadiou]

Just a rundown for everyone else on what Mindcensor's fun-ness is about:

Miracles - Fetchlands, sometimes Stoneforge, Enlightened Tutor
Storm Combo - Infernal Tutor, Fetchlands
DDFT - Doomsday, Fetchlands (oh man, it's so good against Doomsday)
Elves - Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith
Jund - Fetchlands
BUG - Fetchlands
Goblins - Goblin Matron
D&T - Stoneforge
URx Delver - Fetchlands, Stoneforge Mystic
Merfolk - Nothing
MUD - Kudotha Forgemaster
Maverick - GSZ, Fetchlands, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary
Stoneblade - Stoneforge Mystic, Fetchlands
Nic Fit - Basically sucks the life out of every non-punishing fire version.
Show and Tell - Fetchlands, Intuition
Dredge - Nothing
Painter Combo - Imperial Recruiter, Fetchlands, Enlightened Tutor
Reanimator - Entomb, Fetchlands
Aluren - Imperial Recruiter, Fetchlands
High Tide - Fetchlands, Merchant Scroll, Intuition

[tadiou]

I'm going through my prep book for tomorrow, and I've been writing down Cabal Therapy scenarios for each deck and what to name (because I know the cards, but have a serious issue with presque vu, or the name of the card being on the tip of my tongue). Just came to a few conclusions

I'm going to an unknown meta. I'm going to probably blind name with Therapy T1 so I can T2 play VE/CT flashbacked often enough. I don't particularly like naming force of will, because often times it does straight up become a 2 for 1 regardless. If they force of will the first one, you've 2 for 1'd them, and can possibly 3 for 2 them (or better). If they force of will the second one, the same ratio applies, but, if you hit with the first one, chances are, you've ripped their hand from the second one (and subsequently get to play around soft counters like spell pierce & daze).

The question becomes then, should you Cabal Therapy blind on the play, game 1 assuming you have a creature play T2? It's not the same when you're being proactive with Storm Combo & Cabal Therapy, and you're actively trying to find cards that prevent you from winning, here, you're looking for cards to remove and gain card advantage, most of the time, when you're pushing T1 Cabal Therapy lately blind, I feel like there's 7-ish options.

1) Deathrite Shaman
2) Sensei's Divining Top
3) Brainstorm
4) Swords to Plowshares
5) Force of Will
6) Mother of Runes

This assumes you don't lead with either DRS or VE (which I think the latter is rather risky-ist of all).

1) Would you take these odds: 14% chance G1 naming Deathrite Shaman and hitting blind game 1? The grand assumption is, you're improving your G1 matchup in a matchup that's already pretty good for most variations of Nic Fit, and in all 0-for-3 them at best (Hit double DRS, VE turn 2, gain 2 cards at the loss of CT+VE, they lose 1 more card), 2-for-1 at worst (Sac DRS after miss for Flashback CT naming True-Name Nemesis). But you're also ensuring the fact that you have dominance with early DRS's, which is a real thing. In G2/3 I'd much more likely advocate for this line of play, but G1 blind, I think it's weak-ish.
2) Would you take these odds: 8% chance G1 naming Sensei's Divining Top and hitting blind game 1? I think you're in the drivers seat of that matchup assuming you have further gas to move forward. You'd then push the flashback for Cantrips/Filters, and go from there.
3) Would you take these odds: 24% chance G1 naming Brainstorm and hitting blind game 1? Brainstorm is a powerful card, you know this, I know this. Everyone does. But at this point, you're just setting yourself up for a good Cabal Therapy #2, and weakening their ability to filter and draw. It's by far your most likely card to hit in any general circumstance blind, and most likely to disrupt their gameplan followed by DRS.
4) Would you take these odds: 14% chance G1 naming Swords to Plowshares and hitting blind game 1? I've been naming StP a lot, because I use it to protect my turn 2 DRS more often than not, but I feel that it's only a situational play because I do want them to use their StP early and often.
5) Would you take these odds: 22% chance G1 naming Force of Will and hitting blind game 1? I feel this is likely the weakest one... at times, and where I really do enjoy playing in the bug shell go to Misty Rainforest, Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy naming Force of Will. If you slow-roll a little bit, vs tempo decks, they'll slow their tempo on one landers, thinking they're the control deck vs combo if you have the second fetchland in hand and keeping open Spell Pierce or Brainstorm mana and you just explode on them T2/T3 after they botch their T1 play (playing brainstorm over a threat, or wasteland), and your T2 play usually becomes much better. But in all other situations, it's not great. It's just a card that doesn't really matter that much to us early in the game. Later in the game on a flashbacked CT, it's certainly more relevant, but early? Not great, but if you're playing a SnT deck, you're more likely to be able to actually cast it a second time to get Show and Tell out.
6) Would you take these odds: 4% chance G1 naming Mother of Runes and hitting blind game 1? Nope. Unless you know that your opponent is playing D&T, there's no reason to name this, no matter how painful it can be.

Cards I wouldn't name T1 Blind on the play... basically a list of 2 drops.
- Liliana, of the Veil (22% of decks, 31% in hand, 7% chance blind): Rather name on Flashback
- Stoneforge Mystic: Rather name the Equipment
- Jace, The Mind Sculptor (25% of decks, 31% in hand, 8% chance blind): Rather name on Flashback, it's not coming down fast until you sac VE to CT anyway.
- Delver of Secrets: Average 11 ways to deal with a flipped Delver MD.
- Tarmogoyf: Average of 7 ways to deal with Tarmogoyf MD.
- Abrupt Decay: Reasonable, but suffers from the Swords to Plowshares idea that wasting their targeted removal early is generally better, and if you have a fb CT late, you can do that, and follow it up with a Recurring Nightmare if you want.
- Hymn to Tourach (15% of decks, 31% in hand, 5% chance blind): The kind of card I'd probably sac a Baleful Strix for to FB and get this card. Sacing a DRS is probably not the right plan, and naming it T1 isn't great either, if you have action heavy hand, you want the DRS, if you have a land heavy hand, you shouldn't care.
- True-Name Nemesis (22% of decks, 31% in hand, 7% chance blind): A card that's not that scary by itself, and requires usually Equipment (see: Stoneforge Mystic), or you can name it flashbacked.

This obviously changes on the draw, as if you're any good at the card, you should probably hit something 75% of the time. I've taken the thought that it's more important to hit, than to necessarily find the card that's going to beat you, because as I mentioned earlier, we're not following a "mostly linear" gameplan where we're stone dead to certain cards, I think creating the card advantage early and often is significantly more important than finding the right card first.

So, what do you do? Just never lead with CT without more information? That's an option in a situation like 2 fetchlands, VE/CT, where you can play around Daze in that regard
- Fetch land pass, Cabal Therapy naming X, Veteran Explorer, Flashback CT (when you don't suspect daze)
- Fetch land pass, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy naming X, Flashback CT (when daze is possibe)

It's a much easier scenario to play with Veteran Explorer though than with Deathrite Shaman.

Example: 2 Fetchland, DRS, Cabal Therapy, GSZ, Deed, Land? Would you lead with DRS into StP or lead with Therapy?
- If you lead with DRS and it gets pathed, bolted, whatever, T2 GSZ for VE, Turn 3 CT (assuming you draw any non 1-drop T2), Flashback CT.
- if you lead with DRS and it gets pathed, bolted, whatever, T2 CT, pass, T3 GSZ for VE, Flashback CT.
- If you lead with CT (I'd probably blind name DRS knowing I have DRS in hand), and miss, you will know if your DRS gets removed, and have additional information what and if you need to immediately sac DRS to CT a second time. So T2, DRS, Flashback CT.

You wouldn't have that opportunity with the first line unless you played a Dryad Arbor. And the line is relevant against 2 drops, like Show and Tell (it is, you know it), Liliana, of the Veil/Shardless Agent (if you didn't name DRS), Counterbalance (you're already in a meh place if you're naming that). Again, it's subject to change based on what's in your hand (an Abrupt Decay really makes a difference), and if they have Stoneforge Mystic or not. Because line 1 is okay vs stoneforge mystic.dec. Line 2 is probably better vs Delver.dec than line 1. Line 3 is what I think is best vs combo decks, but it puts you back a turn if DRS doesn't get bolted or pathed vs the fair decks.

Thoughts?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Crap double post

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ tadiou: Brainstorm is usually the best one for blind therapy since so many decks run it anyway. Naming that can also make the opponent regret keeping shaky hands with brainstorm in them.

However if ya have an idea of what their playing, then it becomes very matchup dependent. Arianrhod had a pretty good list of therapy situations in his primer, some important ones being naming stifle against RUG delver if on the draw. Not sure what happened to it though.

[Arianrhod]

It's kind of outdated now, but a lot of it does still hold true. I'll re-post it for convenience:


Proper Cabal Therapy names are one of the most important aspects of playing the deck. While the following guide is not perfect, it can be used as a general purpose training tool for when you're just learning the deck and just starting with Therapy. If you have no idea what to do, this is for you. As you get more experienced and more advanced with the deck, some of these calls will change based on a wide variety of factors...but this is a good starting guide.

Stoneblade
[When you are on the] Play: Brainstorm
[When you are on the] Draw: Hold.

If you're on the play, try to disrupt a shaky keep by taking Brainstorm, which also makes your future Therapies better. If you're on the draw, you want to hold your Therapy so that you can either use it after they Stoneforge, or on turn 3 naming Jace TMS.

RUG
Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle

It's our number one enemy in this matchup. If they don't have it, congrats, you have information and the go-ahead for Explorer to ramp past their tempo. Also keep in mind that they give you information on their hand from Delver. Write it down.

Maverick
Play: Noble Hierarch
Draw: Knight of the Reliquary

Mid-late game, it's usually best to name Green Sun's Zenith or Swords to Plowshares, unless you have information from Fauna Shaman or some such. Hierarch on the play can really disrupt them, because maverick players tend to lean on their Hierarchs a lot more than they should...especially with like Savannah Hierarch x2 Cradle [cards] type of hands. You can really punish them for that. Also watch out for Mindcensor, although usually they're just going to flash it out in resp. to Therapy just in case.

High Tide
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: High Tide

If you whiff on High Tide, use your own judgment based on the information you get. Postboard, if you can bin a Time Spiral for Extirpate, that's sex in a can.

TES and ANT
Play: LED
Draw: Dark Ritual

Ideally you want to name mana on the call, and then business on the flashback. Doesn't always work that way though...be prepared to be flexible here.

Doomsday
Play: Doomsday
Draw: Doomsday

I don't know enough about this matchup to know if this is actually correct or not. I guess you could name Top on the play and annoy them that way. But at the end of the day if you can hit their Doomsday, the matchup gets awkward for them and gives you more time to disrupt/beat. This is a really awkward matchup in general.

Goblins
Play: Lackey
Draw: Matron

You could also make a case for Ringleader on the draw.

Merfolk
Play: Vial
Draw: Master of the Pearl Trident [Lord of Atlantis]

I've seen lists running like 4 Master 2 Lord, so you probably want to call Master. Midgame, name Phantasmal Image. You don't want them copying a Grave Titan.

Elves
Play: Glimpse
Draw: Glimpse

Glimpse is public enemy number one. Symbiote is a good take too, since it helps them recover from Deed and fuels a lot of their engines.

Nic Fit mirror (assuming G/B or GBw [Swords/Titan version, no Rector]
Play: Sensei's Divining Top
Draw: Green Sun's Zenith

The mirror of this deck is pretty awkward. Top is definitely right on the play. GSZ is probably their best card on the draw, so I'd go for that, but that's much more questionable. Use your own discretion.

Reanimator
Play: Reanimate
Draw: Animate Dead

To my knowledge, most reanimator decks are shaving Exhume. If you have reason to believe that he's running Exhume, name that -- Animate Dead can at least be killed with Deed. Note: if you're on the play postboard, there's a good chance you want to name Thoughtseize to protect an Extirpate. This is only if you have an Extirpate in hand though IMO. Remember to keep an eye out for Show and Tell. S&T is slower here though, since they only run like 2 City of Traitors. You can take that on the flashback. Also if you have an Extirpate, don't be afraid to name Griselbrand and then make them all go away.

Sneak/Show
Play: Show and Tell
Draw: Griselbrand

Miracles
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Counterbalance

Belcher
Play: LED
Draw: Seething Song

This is awkward and possibly incorrect. It might be that naming Burning Wish or Belcher itself is just better. Nothing about this matchup is good, though, so it probably doesn't matter. I'd say if you take their main mana producers, it should slow them a few turns while you get more discard online to take their business....but unlike ANT/TES, they run a pisston of mana, so I don't know.

Dredge
Play: LED
Draw: Breakthrough

BUG Delver
Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle

Same as RUG here, really.

BUG Control
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Hold

Same as with Stoneblade.

Burn
Play: Lightning Bolt
Draw: Fireblast

Midgame, look at their graveyard and see what burn spells they've used. Keep in mind that Burn tends to run as many 4-ofs are possible, so you can maximize your chances by naming a burn spell that they haven't used yet.

U/R Delver
Play: Delver
Draw: Daze

Daze is an odd name here. The thing is that you don't really want to get Dazed while you're setting up. It's also a blue card, which means if they have Force in hand, their Force gets worse if you hit (and if they do, you take it on the flashback). You just want to get to Thragtusk here, pref. with Nightmare active. Daze is a serious hindrance to that plan, because most of the time you're going to have to GSZ for exact. Watch out for Spell Pierce too.

Death and Taxes
Play: Vial
Draw: Phyrexian Revoker

Deed is our best card here. We know and they know it, and Revoker is their answer to it. Keep an eye out for Mangara, too....don't let that happen if you can avoid it.

MUD
Play: Grim Monolith
Draw: Forgemaster

Take this with a grain of salt....if you're on the draw and they lead like Seat of the Synod -> Voltaic Key, or just 1-mana land pass, you still name Monolith. Monolith is the most dangerous card in their deck, with Metalworker as a close second. If you can take away their fast mana, the deck tends to implode on itself a lot.


If you're on the play in a blind situation, always name Brainstorm. Brainstorm fucks with subsequent Therapies, it's in the largest variety of decks and is a reason to keep a hand from a blue player's perspective, and most combo decks are also Brainstorm decks, so you can hurt their digging / remove their ability to hide important pieces.

Feel free to track me down tomorrow, Tadiou -- my name's Kevin McKee if you aren't already aware of that.

[conboy31]

Only about 2 players out of 535 playing nic-fit at the on going BoM (http://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen , http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/index.html). Not sure how much info will be gleaned from this event.

[Arianrhod]

Notes on the Therapy guide that are for sure inaccurate/outdated:

Elves is now always Natural Order instead of Glimpse. Exception might be me tomorrow with Thune, since if I have a Mindcensor I don't care about NO. Realistically they're keeping a lot of hands with a t2-t3 NO for lethal these days and caring less about Glimpsing off. If you're on the draw and you have enough experience with/vs elves to know that their opener can't t2 NO, then name Glimpse first and hit NO on the flashback.

ANT/TES is always Dark Ritual now, followed by shaping from there based on their hand. Storm players like keeping opening hands with Dark Ritual, a lot. They keep more hands with D.Rit than they do with LED, as D.Rit is easier to use and figures into more of their broken openings. LED can't cast Ad Nauseum. Dark Ritual can. You're still aiming mana on the initial cast and business on the flashback, though.

Most BUG Delver decks aren't running Stifle anymore. Brainstorm on the play or -possibly- Delver of Secrets. Hymn to Tourach on the draw, possibly Force of Will. They typically run 3 copies of both Hymn and Force, and those are the only things that they can do that can really interact with us as long as we play around Daze (or through it, if our hand enables that).

Miracles depends somewhat on the version of Nic Fit you're playing. Some care about Counterbalance more than others. Top is usually the best name on the play. If you're on the draw and they played a Top, then you probably want to name Counterbalance just so you don't get locked out of your developmental stage. If you're on the draw and they didn't play a Top, but they Brainstorm, then you probably call like Counterspell or Snapcaster or something else that's mediocre but useful to have. If you're on the draw and they didn't play a Top and they don't Brainstorm, then you probably call Force of Will or Jace.

[tadiou]

If you're on the play in a blind situation, always name Brainstorm. Brainstorm fucks with subsequent Therapies, it's in the largest variety of decks and is a reason to keep a hand from a blue player's perspective, and most combo decks are also Brainstorm decks, so you can hurt their digging / remove their ability to hide important pieces.

Feel free to track me down tomorrow, Tadiou -- my name's Kevin McKee if you aren't already aware of that.

Definitely had that in mind, I should be there at the crack of dawn because I'm driving the Head Judge there.

In my local meta, I'm like 100% sure what everyone's playing 85% of the time (those odds), and generally do very well. Knowing what to Therapy for with knowledge of what you're playing against is significantly easier though. I'm pretty much going to force my friend playing reanimator to get me food while I scout.

But, the tldr was about more than just general CT usage, I was trying to evaluate what the best line is blind if it was to go land pass, CT naming Brainstorm, or CT naming DRS now.

I deduced those are basically the 3 only actual good lines if you have Cabal Therapy in hand, and was trying to piece together good plays, and the reason why I did bring it up was because I was evaluating that situation where you know like BoM where 25% of the meta plays Deathrite Shaman, is there ever the case that that's the right call if you have DRS in hand? If you don't, I'd name Brainstorm, but, after playing with 4 DRS for the past two months, it's something I've contemplated and thought about. It's closer, but probably still not worth it. DRS advantage is a thing in those matchups, but just wanted to get some thoughts on it.

[GtF]

Definitely had that in mind, I should be there at the crack of dawn because I'm driving the Head Judge there.

In my local meta, I'm like 100% sure what everyone's playing 85% of the time (those odds), and generally do very well. Knowing what to Therapy for with knowledge of what you're playing against is significantly easier though. I'm pretty much going to force my friend playing reanimator to get me food while I scout.

But, the tldr was about more than just general CT usage, I was trying to evaluate what the best line is blind if it was to go land pass, CT naming Brainstorm, or CT naming DRS now.

I deduced those are basically the 3 only actual good lines if you have Cabal Therapy in hand, and was trying to piece together good plays, and the reason why I did bring it up was because I was evaluating that situation where you know like BoM where 25% of the meta plays Deathrite Shaman, is there ever the case that that's the right call if you have DRS in hand? If you don't, I'd name Brainstorm, but, after playing with 4 DRS for the past two months, it's something I've contemplated and thought about. It's closer, but probably still not worth it. DRS advantage is a thing in those matchups, but just wanted to get some thoughts on it.

Despite the increasing popularity of Deathrite, I think Brainstorm is still more widely played. In addition to that, it is not only one of the strongest cards in legacy but one of the strongest cards against Cabal Therapy specifically. Assuming a truely blind scenario, it's very difficult to imagine it being correct to name anything else. I could maybe see an exception if you don't have a veteran explorer or anything good to flashback and need a couple of turns to not get your cabal therapy eaten by their deathrite shaman. Still, in a situation like that the best play might just be to wait on casting therapy till you have more information. If I had a Deathrite Shaman to play instead, I'd probably just do that in almost any scenario. If DRS eats a removal spell I'm generally not that upset, especially if the option to veteran explorer into more lands is already present in the hand.

[tadiou]

Then the question is: When would you hold? And if you're holding, aren't you still subject to getting Brainstormed at that point and time anyway when you do choose to Therapy? Knowing what your opponent thinks they think is good and want to hide and what they think you'll name, vs what you think is good and what you will name, and what you think they'll name and choose to hide. It is part of the game of Cabal Therapy (and probably the most fun I can have while playing magic).

What kind of hands would you keep, that you'd hold a CT up blind? Brainstorm is pretty much a 4 of in 60% of MTGTop8 decks (which I think's pretty fair to say, that's what it is in most matchups).

It's not a large case of games that'd probably be like this, but I think my probability chart puts it at around 7% of games.

[tadiou]

When you have a bubble match, you end up always playing your worst matchup?

Sitting at the middle of 4-2's in round 7 looking for cashing out, I'm thinking I'm playing against Maverick. I therapy on the draw for Knight of the Reliquary... and I see: Double Glimpse of Nature, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewood Symbiote, Quiron Ranger, and Elvish Visionary.

I'm like. oh. Well. This is a poor way to start G1.

Hits me with a single 30/30 Craterhoof. Any time I look at elves, i just get trampled. I saw some 15/15's get natural ordered in. Overwhelmingly bad things happen.

So, after realizing that I have little game with elves in my shell, I was wondering if anyone else has better luck at improving their matchup, or is it just generally that bad slash nigh unwinnable? Arcane Laboratory showed up in the second match, but next turn he just went natural order, craterhoof. It's just like regardless of the effects of hate I can provide, if I'm not able to find an angle to disrupt them that does anything.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Welp ... went 2-4 drop today with this list

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Timbermare
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
///
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
2 Trinket Mage
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

Match 1 vs. Brian on Mono Pox (2-0)
-Game 1 Nothing I can remember. Game 2 he gets 2 Maze of Iths on board but i grind him out with Deathrite Shamans

Match 2 vs. Tim on Jund Elves! (0-2)
- Got a game loss for game 1 because i didnt list cabal therapy on my decklist. Game 2 I keep a decent hand for fair decks and bang my head on the table when he hits me for lethal on turn 4

Match 3 vs. Mark on Reanimator (0-2)
- Cant remember much other than Griselbrand doing it's thang

Match 4 vs. Nick on Tin Fins (1-2)
- Game 2 I get the nut hate with Nihil and Needle on Griselbrand. Game 3 I get cocky with Surgical Extraction, which meets a Pact of Negation followed by 22 in the air

Match 5 vs. Joe on Punishing Jund (2-0)
-Not much to say other than that this matchup was grindy as hell

Match 6 vs. Robert on Tin Fins (1-2)
-Pretty much a deja vu of round 4: got nut hate and grinded him out game 2, and bet too much on Surgical and got hit with 22 in the air

Notes:
- Double check decklists: you never know when you could get a game loss against combo
- Speaking of combo, combo hell is brutal against Nic Fit
- Trinket Mage is too slow and Timbermare really needs to be ifh-biff efreet
- Surgical is good until it gets challenged
- Deathrite Shaman is awesome against random Mazes of Ith
- Take better notes next time

[pfiremc13]

As part of deciding what to cut for aven mindcensors, I made a chart to look at which of my utlility creatures significantly impact the gameplan of some of the top decks. Do you guys think this is correct? Did I miss anything or add anything incorrectly?

Spirit of the Labyrinth (MB)

A bunch of decks a little bit
UW miracles
BUG shardless
Elves
Sneak & show
Storm
Reanimator

Aven Mindcensor

Most decks a little bit
UWR delver
Stoneblade
Elves
Storm

Gaddock Teeg (MB)

UW miracles
Elves
Storm

Ethersworn Canonist (SB)

Elves
Storm

Necroplasm (SB)

Death & taxes
UR delver
RUG delver
Merfolk
BUG delver
Elves
Dredge

Harmonic Sliver (SB)

Death & taxes
MUD
Painter

Orzhov Pontiff (SB)

Death & taxes
UR delver
Stoneblade
BUG delver
Elves

Humility (SB)

MUD
Elves
Sneak & show
Reanimator

Nether Void (SB)

Burn
Sneak & show
Elves
Storm
Reanimator

So essentially what I think I'll do is move teeg to the sideboard, cut harmonic sliver and put a mindcensor in the main. I really would like to move necroplasm back to the main but my main is very tight atm. Also I kind of wanna cut canonist but I really need permanent hate vs. storm.

So with the changes my list would look like:

1 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sylvan Ranger
2 Spike Feeder
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Batterskull
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Necroplasm

[Ish]

Blind naming with CT is just not right unless you know what your up against. Just play veteran explorer T2 followed up by Cast CT/flash CT. You end up with the same effect, have more info from their T1, and see an extra card that the opponent played which maximizes the effect.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pfiremc13]

Except you don't get to hit their T1 play, which could be quite important.

[tadiou]

Blind naming with CT is just not right unless you know what your up against. Just play veteran explorer T2 followed up by Cast CT/flash CT. You end up with the same effect, have more info from their T1, and see an extra card that the opponent played which maximizes the effect.

But what if you don't have a veteran explorer? What if it's a DRS or a Baleful Strix, or a 2 drop, or a turn 2 play that isn't Veteran Explorer? You don't necessarily have the ability or the want to have to sacrifice DRS. Make your first CT count. But if they have brainstorm, it's pretty likely you won't if you wait. The more time passes, the less valuable CT becomes. I'm just not entirely sure that it's not not right to blind name something. You have the initiative, you're then reducing their ability to navigate around it if you lead with CT->Brainstorm. If you just pass, you may know more, but you can just be brainstorm hosed the rest of the time.

I mean, in magic christmas land when you have VE/CT hands, that's one thing, but there's plenty more situations outside of that.

If Brainstorm is their T1 play, you've officially punished them for keeping a hand that they're relying on Brainstorm to gas themselves out of.

[Arianrhod]

Very tilt-inducing weekend. Here's a high-level gloss of the event:

r1 vs Rock (won't say Junk....was a very control build with multiple maindeck vindicates, no goyfs, lily+souls, etc)

G1 I keep PhyTower, Gavony, Plains, Forest, Rector, [card], [card]. He goes double Wasteland into Vindicate your Plains into a third Wasteland after mulling to 6. Real.
G2 I mull to 5, keeping land, land, Explorer, Batterskull, Thune. He STP my Explorer, I go runner runner runner land land land, drop Batterskull. He Vindicates it. Draw Deed, blow up his world, drop Thune, he Vindicates that too. Rip Primeval Titan and stabilize ftw.
G3 we get into a convoluted board state where he draws all 4 of his Souls, but needs to use them as chumpers vs my board of Yosei, Primeval, and Batterskull. Eventually get to the point where I deed away his tokens, nug him for a lot, and then sac Yosei to tap out his remaining blockers to clear the way for the kill just as time is called.

r2 vs Shardless (never saw a FoW, not sure if one of the new FoWless builds or not)

He mentions that he beat BUG Pod r1 (I'm assuming tadiou). spoilers: I avenge my fallen comrade

G1 he curves out with double Visions and an aggressive clock while I draw land after land after land. I think I ended the game with 7 or 8 lands in play and another 2 in hand.
G2 I assemble Thune + Spike Weaver vs his double Goyf + TNN with Jitte board. Thune flies over for the victory as he has no answer for the Spike fogging every turn.
G3 I don't recall, but it's bad for him.

Yay I'm 2-0 and finally having a good day at a non-local event for the first time since November......

r3 vs UWR Blade (control, no delvers)

G1 he has triple bolt (out of 3 in his deck) + 2x snapcaster with a Jace bounce to rebuy one. Real.
G2 he has double TNN vs my Thune with a Batterskull on it. I'm winning the race easily. He drops clique with a Karakas out. I'm annoyed, but Therapy the clique away and present lethal next turn. He fetches, swings, Brainstorms, and passes. I attempt to kill him. He found the 2nd of 2 cliques in his deck with his Brainstorm, and kills me next turn. Real.

r4 vs UWR Delver

Kid's first legacy event.

G1 he peels his 1-outer to kill me one turn from death. This is after earlier in the game I Mindcensor his Stoneforge and he finds his Jitte in the top 4 anyway.
G2 He has 5 lands in play with no non-land permanents and no cards in hand. I have 27 life, 2 Carpets, Mirari's Wake, Diabolic Intent in hand, and 7 or 8 lands. He rips Batterskull. I go land, land, Carpet, land, land, Therapy, land, land dead. Fucking real.

r5 vs Scapewish

G1 he doesn't use lube.
G2 I have a Mindcensor with a Batterskull on it after Cranialing his Burning Wishes.
G3 I Therapy double Wish, Cranial his Scapeshifts, and have the Archangel/Feeder combo in hand to drop in 1-shot on the following turn. He Tops after my Cranial and finds one of his 2 remaining Burning Wishes to kill me for exactsies the turn before he dies (I was at 18). Real.

Note: to be fair to myself here, this one was a little bit of bad luck but also a punt on my part. I had Diabolic Intented for the Cranial, which was a misplay. I should've Intented for Mindcensor instead, since that would have served the same purpose in that scenario (goal: not die to scapeshift, untap and win) but it would've actually prevented his outs rather than just preventing half of them via Cranial.

I drop out of complete frustration and go test standard with one of our car while we wait for our last member to die. I proceed to lose with double a Master of the Feast draw vs RUG Monsters because he has all 4 Stormbreath Dragons. Even when just playtesting, real.

Literally not allowed to do well on Saturday in anything. I expected to get in a car accident on the way home (thankfully, we made it back safe and sound).

Thoughts on the list, bad luck notwithstanding:

More focus is probably needed. Batterskull continues to WILDLY overperform, and continues to be one of the main reasons I want to play white versions. Boarding in 3 Carpet + 2 Batterskull vs blue decks is gross and unfair, and I love it. Thune-the-card continues to be a house as well. Weaver continues to be awesome and hilarious. Rector terrified a few people throughout the day, and served as a Moat vs Shardless because he was too scared to attack into it. Didn't play vs combo so I can't say how that would've been, but I mean, it's not like I didn't have ample hate.

Mindcensor is an interesting case. I didn't really get any value from him maindeck, but I don't know how much of that is just because I had rotten luck and people always found what they were looking for. They were obviously the nuts vs Scapewish, and probably would've won me that match if I hadn't been stupid in g3. Aside from that...I dunno. I didn't play vs anything that they were really -meant- for. They probably are more of a sideboard card realistically, but that's awkward in and of itself because there's only so much sideboard space.

Unsure of where I'm going from here. Assuming I make it up to Mythic for legacy this Saturday upcoming, I'll likely be on Scape since there's been a rash of Eric English inspired Food Chain decks running around there and I like the idea of Slaughter Gamesing Food Chain.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

In reality, it really just comes down to whether you're on the play or the draw and whether you're against combo or tempo/attrition decks.

On the draw, that first land and play can give you plenty of information to be accurate with Therapy. On the play, best bet is always Brainstorm unless you are sure of what the opponent is playing. Against combo however, being on the draw is pretty suicidal: against Tin Fins both times yesterday I whiffed a few times with Therapy on Dark Ritual (panic moment on my part). Fair decks can't do much to kill ya too quickly, so being on the draw is as detrimental.

I believe it's not as important to hit with a blind Therapy as it is to have a viable contingency plan when you do whiff: that is, a creature to flashback Therapy if against combo or something viable against fair decks. Of course, my advice doesn't exactly mean jack XD.

Anyhow, on another subject, would y'all consider Nightshade Peddler + Scattershot Archer in your 75? Each have their own uses, but combined they can handle a variety of threats such as Entreat, Emrakul, and Griselbrand.

EDIT: Nic report, btw Arianrhod: good to know I'm not the only one who decided to keep going despite bombing ^_^

[tadiou]

My day ended up being pretty similar.

R1 was vs Arianrhod's R2. Shardless Bug.

Never saw an FoW either. Which was okay, I suppose, but he just got ridiculously fast hands and hit with Hymn better than... well. I could believe. He T1 Thoughseizes my deed. His turn 4 (on the play), I have a pod on the table, deathrite shaman in the yard (after an abrupt decay), 4 cards in hand, 2 lands, 2 creatures, and he hymns both creatures I could have cast next turn. His Shardless Agents all hit creatures. I'm thinking to myself. Well. That's not going to go well. I was feeling rather confident about the Shardless matchup before this, but that was like, dropping the boom on me. G2 wasn't any better. Wipes my board. Rips my threats. Shardless into Tarmogoyf, Shardless into Baleful Strix into Tarmogoyf. It was just... not particularly fun. (0-2)

R2 was the first of my 3 burn matchups against a local of mine named Justin. But really, who plays 3 burn decks in 8 rounds? IS THIS THE FATE OF THE LOSERS BRACKET?

Fortunately I do think I play one of the scarier decks for Burn to face. Game 1 I stabilzed with what my notes look like a Thragtusk followed by a Kitchen Finks (5 -> 10 -> 12? That's what it looks like to me). Game 2 I got crushed by an Eidolon of the Great Revel. Card is actually really legit. It's legitimately a scary card to play against if you're not maindecking a lot of removal or countermagic (and even then, you're still opening yourself up to other nasty cards). G3 though was probably one of my sweeter plays, after getting t1 therapy seeing 3 chain lightnings on the play, i get explorer, and nab the othe two. My opponent had a Great Revel in play and was at 6 life, and I was pretty positive that he drew a Flame Rift because he had this awful look on his face, and I was like, what Justin? Did you draw a flame rift and can't play it because you'd kill yourself and not me? He did. I was at 9 life. He slowly whittled me down, and I got a deed on board (with a Pod), and had a DRS in play, and I did something I haven't actually done before. My opponent had a Sulfuric Vortex in play (the one where you can't gain life), and I had a Kitchen Finks and Thragtusk in hand, and was at 1 life. I activated my DRS, held priority, activated Deed for 3, let deed resolve first, DRS resolved second, Gained 2 life, played Kitchen Finks. Played Thragtusk. Won that game. (2-1)

R3 was against Junk
Nothing special. Crushed both games pretty easily. I can see by my notes I got low on life and then just grabbed a Thragtusk, cloned it. Got a Grave Titan and then attacked. Games like that are most enjoyable.

R4 was against Burn part 2. Fluffy haired Quebecois. I didn't catch his name because his last name took up the entire space on pairings list. (2-0)

Game 1 my keep was terrible... against burn. It was a fine hand against pretty much any other deck that wasn't burn (or elves), but, I don't think I even got him past 18 life. Didn't attack, was constantly on the defensive. G2 I fan my hand to this guy I was talking to earlier in the day, and I'm like, yeah. This is a thing. Explorer, 2 lands, Therapy, Pod, Kitchen Finks, Thragtusk. I got to 5 life, played around Price of Progress a lot. But got there. G3 was an awful 7, and a not very good six. Fetchland, 3 deathrite shaman, brainstorm, kitchen finks. I didn't see another land. I beat myself a bit up about keeping that, but he was also on the goblin guide plan, and I saw nothing in that brainstorm t2. Slow painful death. It wasn't like he just had a great hand, but after 3-4 GG triggers, and not a single land I was like. PACK IT IN. (1-2)

R5 was against Burn part 3. Now I'm sitting at 2-2, and am just like. eh. might as well keep going. I can't leave anyway (because I gave the HJ a ride there).

Interesting build playing ensnaring bridges. I held like 3 or 4 nonbasics in hand that I drew just because I knew he was on the Price of Progress path 2 of the games. And indeed he did smack me for 10 one game with it (game 3). Game 2 I made a really eh misplay. I was at 7 life, I had lethal on board. I had pod in play, I could have gone to 5, and podded Kitchen Finks to Glen Elendra and have 1 blue up in case of like... anything. He rips a fireblast off the top and deals me exacties. I was like, Well. I deserve that. He had a like 3 outer. G3 I was pretty much in control of it all the time. Was able to gain a bunch of life, the MB Volrath's Stronghold & Viridian Corrupter were both super solid in this matchup. Also was totally able to see his hand in his sunglasses. I thought that was moderately amusing. (2-1)

R6 was against Grixis

He mulls to 4 and 5, and I'm playing him, and he doesn't really have any sort of game against me either way. Like, even if he kept a 7, I think his deck just doesn't do enough against me to get there. At one point I remember him complaining "this is legacy, why am I doing combat math"? I think I had 4 zombie tokens on the table. When that happens, just remember kids: good things happen to those who have lots of zombies on their side. (2-0)

And now I'm sitting middle of the pack at 4-2 with 12 points thinking, oh, I can possibly cash out here. I could actually use a badland or two.

R7 vs Elves.

Nope. Nope. Nope. I talked about it previously. Just had wrong everything. Admittedly, I don't test a lot vs Elves (not a ton around me, although Boettcher was on it today, he doesn't play locally anymore). Just was all levels of SEND HELP. (0-2)

Thought to myself. I got 1 more round to play, might as well play the final round, go to a local bar where my friend was playing a show, and call it. It was way too late to get into a side event.

R8 vs Death and Taxes

Why can't I get this matchup more? G1 I hit double revoker on CT. He gets a slow clock. I stablize. Game take 30 minutes. I'm up 1-0. I'm like. DRIVERS SEAT! YES. G2 provided one really interesting line of play, and similar to one in G1. Both regarding legendary creatures, karakas, vial and cabal therapy. I've been keeping him off of Mangara getting active for a turn by throwing pressure on it. He had a Grafdigger's Cage in play. I had birthing pod in play and a Cabal Therapy in hand and one in the yard. I cast Viridian Corrupter, and in response (which was a little weird), he puts Mangara into play. I think then, okay, so if I take the Vial, I can't actually deal with Mangara again, and he can Karakas it indefinitely. That's bad. If I take the Grafdiggers Cage, I can pod Corrupter into Murderous Redcap and force him off of Mangara again, which he Karakas's. I don't have enough mana to cast Cabal Therapy (due to Thalia), but I do have a Phyrexian Tower in play (which the interaction of the two cards is extremely valueble). I pass the turn, he draws a land, and I'm like. Booyeah. Draw for turn. Cast Cabal Therapy, in response he Vials in Mangara, with Therapy still on the stack, I activate Phyrexian Tower, Redcap persists, comes back into play and marks 1 damage on Mangara and he tanks. I'm sitting there admiring my handywork, and he's thinking of an out. About 3 minutes go by and there's about 8 minutes on the clock left. He Karakas's Mangara back to his hand and Therapy resolves naming Mangara of Corondor. The amount of resources I had to use to get rid of that card is absolutely ridiculous, it's also one of the better cards in the matchup... I eventually pod the Redcap into Shriekmaw, kill the Thalia, he plays his other Thalia, I pod my DRS into Phantasmal Image copying Shriekmaw. I probably should have had the judge called on me at this point and time because it was rather unclear what I was doing. I lay the Image on top of Shriekmaw, implying that I'm copying Shriekmaw, and say targeting Thalia. It was confusing because Image doesn't target (so why would I be saying targeting), and I was naming a target. Just a weird shortcut of pointing and talking where your opponent was like. I don't know what your doing... Phantasmal Image targeting Thalia with a Karakas in play isn't usually a good play (unless you're going to Abrupt Decay their legendary in response to the target). Eventually he gets it worked out. I pod the image away next turn into Grave Titan and beat him on turn 1 in extra time.

Cards that were very good to me:
- Thassa was great in the grindy matchups that I wasn't necessarily winning (but was still generally ahead), but it really reads 2U: Enchantment - Scry 1 during your upkeep, 1U: Target creature's unblockable. If I wasn't playing Thassa, I'd probably play AEtherling because of the ability to be unblockable is huge. Usually I get Thassa + Thragtusk and that carries a lot of value.
Cards that I reconsidered:
- Pestermite. I really enjoy the ability to make my 2 drops into 4 drops. That's a real powerful live ability against a lot of decks to turn a Baleful Strix into a Murderous Redcap or Glen Elendra Archmage... but it's a lacking card otherwise. I didn't play a single delver deck, and that's probably a reason why I felt it underperformed from my expectations.
- Doomwake Giant. Cute but still probably not as good as another Golgari Charm. I thought it would be, because I really feel the need for more beaters, but, I don't know if that's the case.
Card I wanted:
- More lifegain (seriously). I don't actually want a 2nd Thragtusk, but after seeing 3 burn decks in 8 rounds, I was praying for it every match. Card just literally caused every deck I played problems.
- Engineered Plague. Didn't play 1 in my 75, but I want to name Elves. Goblins. Humans (vs D&T, as it nukes Mangara, Thalia, Mom). Wizard (it's a card vs Clique/Snapcaster decks).

[Arianrhod]

I'm increasingly a fan of the 2nd Thragtusk, or, where not appropriate, running/sideboarding the pair of Batterskulls. Usually all that we need to win the game is time. The games we lose are those where we get aggro'd out before we can stabilize into doing bigger things than our opponents while they have empty hands. There's also some small percentage of games where we get combo'd out too quickly or where we mull into oblivion / get varianced, which happens with any deck.

You're on a bunch of Deathrites (3 or 4), and you have the Pods. Doomwake might be better served as an Orzhov Pontiff, with your plan being to just cheat on the white mana via DRS if you draw or it, or Pod if you don't. It's a more powerful effect than Doomwake since you can do it reliably twice (thanks to Nic Fit's sac outlets) and since it's a 3-drop -- and thus castable/poddable while it still matters. There may also be scenarios where you can fire it off twice in a turn, wrathing your opponent's Delvers/DRS/etc.

Shardless is a strange matchup vs us. It's usually overwhelmingly positive for us, but they can randomly hurt us very badly and carry the game from there. I can see BUG Pod having a rougher time than other versions, though.

[tadiou]

When you disrupt the engine enough, it's easy to outtempo your opponent. That's pretty much what happened to the worst degree in that match, it's been a very good matchup for me in the past month (going 7-2 vs most flavors of BUG), but this one felt like I was optionless and generally very very behind. That's kinda how it goes with that deck though.

I might end up trying the Pontiff, but I get nervous with it in the same way I feel when I had Rector in my deck. Pontiff fits considerably better in the curve though where I'm looking than Doomwake does and is less cute, but it's just the fear of uncastable cards gets me. If I ran a GSZ, that'd probably be better as I'd have an actual way to get a DRS in play to actually cast it. If I could get a 4 color shell together, it'd be easier, but its not the easiest thing to fit all that together. I saw a Melira pod combo on SCG stream once, but I couldn't find the list, and they were definitely in the 4 color realm, where I'd template off that base.

Additionally: The 4 nic fit players all paired up next to each other (or against each other) was kind of ridiculous.

[GtF]

In my experience the shardless BUG matchup is good for BUG Pod, but Hymn is one of their best cards against us. Basically, if both players get to do what they want, Pod will come out way ahead, and Hymn is their best way to keep that from happening, since Pod is a bit more reliant on certain synergies. For that reason I usually name either Hymn or Shardless Agent with Therapy against that deck.

I really like Orzhov Pontiff and tried out splashing for it in BUG Pod for a while. Sometimes it was great, sometimes it didn't do much. Ultimately I concluded that the cost of adding a 4th color wasn't worth the upside of having access to pontiff. It made delver machups worse, and the strength of those matchups is a big reason to play this deck in the first place.

[gigapatrick]

To Tadiou,

I'm currently in the process of building Bug Pod (have all but three of the Force of Wills online but still need most of the deck in paper), so I'm just getting started with it. It's a blast when you can get the Birthing Pod chain going, but the deck is complex and I often feel that I lose games that I could have won had I made other decisions (which I suppose is true of any deck). In any case, would you mind posting your list? (Or directing me to where you've already posted it?)

Thanks,
gigapatrick

[tadiou]

To Tadiou,

I'm currently in the process of building Bug Pod (have all but three of the Force of Wills online but still need most of the deck in paper), so I'm just getting started with it. It's a blast when you can get the Birthing Pod chain going, but the deck is complex and I often feel that I lose games that I could have won had I made other decisions (which I suppose is true of any deck). In any case, would you mind posting your list? (Or directing me to where you've already posted it?)

Thanks,
gigapatrick

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=808570&viewfull=1#post808570

That's the list I ran over the weekend. I don't actually play Forces though (which I'd suppose would be a boon for you online, because... y'know. forces). I'm fine without playing forces (as I do think the configuration as is does play pretty well to combo), if you see considerably more combo than I do (about 10-15%), then I'd probably want to actually run Forces. But the best defense is a combination of hate when it comes to Combo. I don't think you have to go with playing forcesIt's a lot of reps. to have a game vs combo. Glen Elendra Archmage is the stone nuts against every combo deck but Elves & Painter. If you can disrupt them to the point where you can get one in play, you're so far ahead. I also really do like Swan Song over Envelop if you're not playing Force/Pilferer.

Hardcasting Mindbreak Trap is an option, and a very good one against Abrupt Decay, which the Storm Combo lists usually are bringing in now, if you happen to have an Arcane Labs out. Where I think you're a little weaker to SnS decks in the sense that you're dead to the right combination of top decks, Arcane Labs is also good in that matchup because it values your countermagic to theirs 1 to 1. I think PVDR had a nugget on that i/r/t how Miracles should be fighting that that's relevant to how we would.

[tons of fun]

so my clan of fellow nic fitters any way we can make kruphix god of the horizons good

[tadiou]

not anymore than we can make Nylea, Erberos, or Pharika work.

[tons of fun]

not anymore than we can make Nylea, Erberos, or Pharika work.

lol atleast erabos is greed with legs

[gigapatrick]

Thanks, tadiou. I like the Arcane Labs a whole lot; I might try them out myself. Since I'm new to the deck, I checked out David Gleicher's variations, the first of which ran three Thoughtseize and three Swan Song. After that, he switched to four Force and two Envelop, which I haven't been able to try since I'm still in the middle of acquiring the Forces. I just want to be able to assemble both versions so I can figure out which I like better. I definitely like the idea of Thassa, and even of Pestermite (which seems like an analog to Caleb Durward's Deceiver Exarch version, though Pestermite just seems better to me), but why are you running Viridian Corrupter over Uktabi Orangutan? The fact that he deals infect damage seems like it could really screw up the plan. Also, can you clarify what you said about Miracles? Anyway, thanks again.

[tadiou]

lol atleast erabos is greed with legs

The problem is is that it's extremely hard to actually turn on Erabos. The easiest one, by far, would be Nylea, but she's not very good.


Thanks, tadiou. I like the Arcane Labs a whole lot; I might try them out myself. Since I'm new to the deck, I checked out David Gleicher's variations, the first of which ran three Thoughtseize and three Swan Song. After that, he switched to four Force and two Envelop, which I haven't been able to try since I'm still in the middle of acquiring the Forces. I just want to be able to assemble both versions so I can figure out which I like better. I definitely like the idea of Thassa, and even of Pestermite (which seems like an analog to Caleb Durward's Deceiver Exarch version, though Pestermite just seems better to me), but why are you running Viridian Corrupter over Uktabi Orangutan? The fact that he deals infect damage seems like it could really screw up the plan. Also, can you clarify what you said about Miracles? Anyway, thanks again.

Maybe it wasn't who I thought it was? I don't know.

Either way, with Arcane Labs, you're able to 1-for-1 Sneak and Show's countermagic. They cast a spell, you can counter it. They can't counter it back. Now, the problem with the plan is that they tend to bring in Leyline vs you, but you have multiple angles of actually disrupting them, so if they mulligan to find protection vs discard (which isn't as good post-board, but still necessary), you're generally ahead. Cards I like to bring in vs SnT is pretty much the whole board. Every card is good against them.

Look at Svknoe's List from GP Paris
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/welcome#0

2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Pretty much everything but Deed & Jitte are good vs Show and Tell. Bring in 13 cards. Call it a day. Playing with Arcane Labs allows you to have a similar approach to countermagic without the negative interactions of playing with Forces because you're usually going to just be trading 1 for 1 vs SnT deck in the counterspell arena. Their strength is they have what? 12 counterspells post board. Now, they won't want all of them, because, hey, we're a creature based deck, we're not going to be throwing countermagic everywhere. And, that's what's going to get them into trouble. They'll find room for Grafdiggers cages vs Glen Elendra and such.

[GtF]

Thanks, tadiou. I like the Arcane Labs a whole lot; I might try them out myself. Since I'm new to the deck, I checked out David Gleicher's variations, the first of which ran three Thoughtseize and three Swan Song. After that, he switched to four Force and two Envelop, which I haven't been able to try since I'm still in the middle of acquiring the Forces. I just want to be able to assemble both versions so I can figure out which I like better. I definitely like the idea of Thassa, and even of Pestermite (which seems like an analog to Caleb Durward's Deceiver Exarch version, though Pestermite just seems better to me), but why are you running Viridian Corrupter over Uktabi Orangutan? The fact that he deals infect damage seems like it could really screw up the plan. Also, can you clarify what you said about Miracles? Anyway, thanks again.

Thoughtseize/Swan Song and Force/Pilferer/Envelop each have their merits. The advantage of thoughtseize/swan song is it's a bit more compact, leaving you more room for other things in the sideboard. I find that I have the room though, so I don't mind devoting the SB slots to what I consider an overall better anti-combo package. I know Svenkoe and I have been impressed with Pilferer, and I find it especially good against Sneak and Show. It does have the downside of not actually being good against certain combo decks (elves, dredge, reanimator) which can strain the number of blue cards for FOW if you board them in. So I can definitely see an argument for a thoughtseize/swan song board in that case.

As for Miracles, if anyone can come up with a plan to actually make the matchup favorable, I'd be thrilled. I think it is pretty bad and I've tried all sorts of things with only moderate success. Currently the best anti-miracles board plan I've come up with is to board in:

1 Aetherling
3 Riptide Pilferer (I think potentially making them lose a card is more valuable than us drawing a card off strix, plus a 2/2 morph can be relevant to pressure a jace)
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Pithing Needle

For veteran explorers, cabal therapies, shriekmaw, some baleful strixs, Fleshbag marauder if it's main, and maybe scavenging ooze? Even though Phantasmal Image is kind of awkward against them, I think it is good to keep it just for the upside of potentially copying a glen elendra with it.

[tadiou]

Miracles is the one reason I'd run AEtherling. If you can get it into play (which is a thing), they're basically dead if you have the following: open blue mana, pernicious deed in play, AEtherling in play.

The other thing is Glen Elendra is a h-o-u-s-e, along with Recurring Nightmare. Image gets a decent amount of work done too. Your graveyard becomes another tool to get board presence fast.

My board plan vs Miracles is: Venser, Glen Elendra, Revoker, Golgari Charm (x2), Swan Song (x2) and sometimes Mindbreak Trap. Usually it's all about sticking a Pod, and riding it up the chain. A second Thragtusk is also good. Resolved Thragtusks = Constant Pressure.

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for clarifying. I was wondering what Aetherling was doing in Gleicher's list. I think I'll have to pack one in my board, since Miracles is a real thing. Also, I totally forgot to ask: you were at SCG Cincy?

[tadiou]

If you're going to run AEtherling, run it instead of Grave Titan, not in the Board. Like was mentioned previously, it's good in the board, but if you're trying to save space, put it in the main. AEtherling's really good, but it's main downfall is not being able to crowd the board and create blockers (and the Deathtouch is absolutely relevant), but I don't know how relevant it is.

[GtF]

If you're going to run AEtherling, run it instead of Grave Titan, not in the Board. Like was mentioned previously, it's good in the board, but if you're trying to save space, put it in the main. AEtherling's really good, but it's main downfall is not being able to crowd the board and create blockers (and the Deathtouch is absolutely relevant), but I don't know how relevant it is.

I've considered this move many times but never pulled the trigger on it. The thing that keeps me from doing it is remembering all the games where I got a Grave Titan (sometimes "going off" with it and Recurring Nightmare) and the possibility of the opponent racing me was immediately shut down. Would they have been able to race an Aetherling in those situations? I'm never exactly sure. Anyways, if you try it with the Aetherling let us know when/if you would have preferred it to be Grave Titan.

Not sure if you were asking me, but I was not at SCG Cincy.

[Arianrhod]

I like Aetherling as a control finisher for things like bugstill or even a mirror breaker for Deathblade....but not in Nic Fit. I think that we can do a lot better, personally.

[raindrainxi]

A bit out of nowhere but, anybody tried Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in the Scapewish lists?

[Jokemon]

Only about 2 players out of 535 playing nic-fit at the on going BoM (http://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen , http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/index.html). Not sure how much info will be gleaned from this event.

I was one of the two NicFit players (played BUG Pod), but failed hard. Met reanimate r1 and show and tell r2 both with nut draws, so I dropped pretty fast and played Vintage instead.
To bad since i had a good feel about the deck against the field.

[Arianrhod]

A bit out of nowhere but, anybody tried Ruric Thar, the Unbowed in the Scapewish lists?

Yeah, I tried it right after it came out. It's horrible, don't bother. Scapewish has too many noncreature spells -- Ruric ends up hurting us as much as the opponent. He's also smaller than most Goyfs, so he gets stonewalled pretty easily, and anyone playing white has the option to Karakas it -- or, more damningly, to use their Karakas to control Ruric such that he only hurts us and not them.

-Maybe- in some kind of Natural Order based build, because then it'd actually be fast enough to get out in time to matter vs combo, but Scape isn't that deck.

[UseLess]

I have played some more with my BUG pod list and I really like it. My only problem is that the deck is sloooooooooooooow and I would like to add proper finisher against a variety of decks that protects itself. Sigarda would fit this role perfectly, but I quite like not having any uncastable cards, so I'm looking for some sort of replacement. Currently I'm pondering over Kodama of the North Tree and I was wondering if anyone has some experience with this card or some alternatives? Preferably I look for a 5-drop or lower CMC. My other 5-drops are Thragtusk and Acidic Slime, the last one I grew to like quite a bit. Basically I'm cutting a ponder (great Card btw!) for this slot of which I'm not much of a fan. Maybe I will throw out the Acidic slime again and test this setup, but for now I'd like to test an extra finisher. I do not consider Thrun a proper finisher, as it takes him way too long to kill a player as they can so easily chump him, buying themselves plenty of time to find an answer.

On the 3-drops, True-Name Nemesis keeps to perform great and is one of my main kill conditions at the moment. I suppose this is also very playstyle dependent, but it is definitely one of the strongest cards in my deck. Worth a shot!

[tadiou]

I have played some more with my BUG pod list and I really like it. My only problem is that the deck is sloooooooooooooow and I would like to add proper finisher against a variety of decks that protects itself. Sigarda would fit this role perfectly, but I quite like not having any uncastable cards, so I'm looking for some sort of replacement. Currently I'm pondering over Kodama of the North Tree and I was wondering if anyone has some experience with this card or some alternatives? Preferably I look for a 5-drop or lower CMC. My other 5-drops are Thragtusk and Acidic Slime, the last one I grew to like quite a bit. Basically I'm cutting a ponder (great Card btw!) for this slot of which I'm not much of a fan. Maybe I will throw out the Acidic slime again and test this setup, but for now I'd like to test an extra finisher. I do not consider Thrun a proper finisher, as it takes him way too long to kill a player as they can so easily chump him, buying themselves plenty of time to find an answer.

On the 3-drops, True-Name Nemesis keeps to perform great and is one of my main kill conditions at the moment. I suppose this is also very playstyle dependent, but it is definitely one of the strongest cards in my deck. Worth a shot!

The deck is slow... really most of the lists are pretty slow and grindy because it gives you the best chance to gain advantage over your fair opponents with incremental advantage that a deck that puts more pressure out may not be able to get.

Proper finishers? Most of the BUG Pod decks play Grave Titan, and for good reason. It's 10 power on the board. Kodama doesn't provide any value, and isn't nearly as strong of a finisher as Grave Titan, having any sort of value when a card ETB's is very very important along all stages, and a 6/4 vanilla beater just isn't worth it. Thragtusk is as good of a beater as any other card in the deck.


Preferably I look for a 5-drop or lower CMC

But why? If you're playing Pod, why are you adament about a 5 cmc or lower? If you have a few paths to a 6 cmc, you shouldn't be afraid of a 6 CMC card. If you're concerned about a lot of chump blocks, play Thassa.

I've also had pretty poor experiences with TNN, except in the rare case I copy my opponents TNN and can race them with it.

[firebadmattgood]

As to the BUG pod/miracles matchup, I'm thinking about adding a single Taiga to the main for access to a red blast and a pair of slaughter games in the board. Thoughts? Red blast can't be brought in versus wasteland decks, and slaughter games is kind of narrow, but they both seem pretty rad against jace decks, which this deck struggles with.

[gigapatrick]

As to the BUG pod/miracles matchup, I'm thinking about adding a single Taiga to the main for access to a red blast and a pair of slaughter games in the board. Thoughts? Red blast can't be brought in versus wasteland decks, and slaughter games is kind of narrow, but they both seem pretty rad against jace decks, which this deck struggles with.

I had similar thoughts myself. A red splash in Bug Pod lists could enable Red Blast and Slaughter Games in the board, which would be good not only against Miracles but Combo as well. I think it could be doable, and I suppose between 8 green fetches, a singleton Taiga, and 4 Deathrite Shaman you'd probably have the red when you needed it. You could forgo the Force of Will / Envelop / Riptide Pilferer board plan, which would be easier on the wallet but maybe not as effective.

[firebadmattgood]

My board would be:

1 venser
2 clique
1 envelop
1 swan song
1 flusterstorm
2 golgari charm
4 force
1 red blast
2 slaughter games

[gigapatrick]

My board would be:

1 venser
2 clique
1 envelop
1 swan song
1 flusterstorm
2 golgari charm
4 force
1 red blast
2 slaughter games

I think I'd want more Red Blasts and / or Pyroblasts in the board. I mean, if you're dropping a fetch or a usable dual maindeck for an essentially nonbasic forest (which is all Taiga would be before boarding), I'd want access to a few more Blast effects. Not sure what to cut for them though. Still new to the deck.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

No tournament tonight because of Mother's Day, but I did happen to play one of my most feared matchups at my LGS last night: Burn. Surprisingly, it's fairly even depending on how well we stabilize and how well they top deck gas. You'd be surprised how damning a Thragtusk is to them, and how far Ooze and Deathrite can carry ya until then.

We played two matches, going 2-0 first match and 1-2 second match. The key difference between the two? Goblin Guide was never seen in the first match at all, and he had double Goblin Guide first and third games of the second match.

I sided out 4x Deed, Tabernacle, and Wickerbough and brought in 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Slaughter Games (I have a strong feeling Slaughter Games is reason enough to splash a singleton Taiga in the main) both times. Any thoughts on this?

[Arianrhod]

No tournament tonight because of Mother's Day, but I did happen to play one of my most feared matchups at my LGS last night: Burn. Surprisingly, it's fairly even depending on how well we stabilize and how well they top deck gas. You'd be surprised how damning a Thragtusk is to them, and how far Ooze and Deathrite can carry ya until then.

We played two matches, going 2-0 first match and 1-2 second match. The key difference between the two? Goblin Guide was never seen in the first match at all, and he had double Goblin Guide first and third games of the second match.

I sided out 4x Deed, Tabernacle, and Wickerbough and brought in 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Slaughter Games (I have a strong feeling Slaughter Games is reason enough to splash a singleton Taiga in the main) both times. Any thoughts on this?

Thoughts are that you're screwing yourself if he runs/sides in Sulfuric Vortex. Also, some burn decks run/side in Ensnaring Bridges as well -- I would recommend leaving in maybe 2 deeds and the wickerbough for these contingencies.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thoughts are that you're screwing yourself if he runs/sides in Sulfuric Vortex. Also, some burn decks run/side in Ensnaring Bridges as well -- I would recommend leaving in maybe 2 deeds and the wickerbough for these contingencies.

I'm not completely sold on keeping Deed in: seems a little too slow, especially since the only permanents I saw were Lavamancers, Guides, and Vortexes, and I run 4 Deed, 3 Decay, and 2 Pulse Main now (actually let me post my most recent list after this: might give a better idea of what all I run now). Wickerbough Elder however seems like a good keep though, and Tabernacle is a definite side out.

BUGr Fit (60/15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
///
3 Inquisition of Kozilek (was 0 during Burn Matches)
2 Thoughtseize (was 4 during Burn Matches)
3 Headhunter
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder (was 2 during Burn Matches)
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge

[jobdevries]

Hey, thought I'd share a 'new' list I have been working on. Biggest changes are that it includes SFM + Batterskull/Jitte, and a pack of Living Wish.
Too often I lost my first game versus e.d. Thespian Stage combo, and I think being able to use your SB straight away as a toolbox is very neat.

Creatures (9):
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thrun, the last Troll
1x Eternal Witness

Spells (30):
4x Green sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Lingering Souls
2x Diabolic Intent
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (21):
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

// Sideboard
[Fetchable with Living Wish]
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Veteran Explorer
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Peacekeeper
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
[Rest]
1x Choke
4x Leyline of Sanctity


Looking forward to hear your thoughts!

[tadiou]

Thoughtseize also seems really bad too against burn. If your main concern is getting Price of Progressed out, you don't need 8 pieces of discard for that. You're handing them a free shock every time you use it, and giving them essentially an extra card (well. .67 cards).

That said. Thragtusk is about 1.5-2 cards in their hand worth of damage prevention. Deed is very important still, maybe not a 4 of, but enough to be able to reliably clear the board of Sulfuric Vortex + Goblin Guide. Giving them extra lands is rarely a bad thing, they get a greater percentage to draw more gas, but their ability to become "explosive" is relatively minor, their damage output is linear for the most part. It's essentially like playing against Sneak and Show in the sense you need both a clock and disruption, and lacking either will make it difficult for victory because they'll eventually combo out on you.

I don't know what you'd bring in Slaughter Games for, I mean, it makes sense, to an extent, but it's not like their ways to kill you are few, like storm or show and tell, they don't have a specific trump card that closes it out for them. What would you name? Price? Fireblast? Bolt? You're still likely only to get 1, maybe 2 cards seen, they live off the top of their deck and redundancy, and unless you're casting 4 Slaughter Games in a game, I think the kind of proactive measures it'd bring aren't nearly strong enough to warrant bringing them in.

Re: Above.

Ichneumon Druid is absolutely hilarious. I approve. I also think the Wolfir Silverheart (I mean, I do love that card v. much) would be much better suited for a Thragtusk. Thragtusk is literally one of the best cards hands down that you can play with 4 GSZ in any format that has miracles & burn. Is Peacekeeper your out vs Sneak and Show? What about Omni-Tell?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thoughtseize also seems really bad too against burn. If your main concern is getting Price of Progressed out, you don't need 8 pieces of discard for that. You're handing them a free shock every time you use it, and giving them essentially an extra card (well. .67 cards).

That said. Thragtusk is about 1.5-2 cards in their hand worth of damage prevention. Deed is very important still, maybe not a 4 of, but enough to be able to reliably clear the board of Sulfuric Vortex + Goblin Guide. Giving them extra lands is rarely a bad thing, they get a greater percentage to draw more gas, but their ability to become "explosive" is relatively minor, their damage output is linear for the most part. It's essentially like playing against Sneak and Show in the sense you need both a clock and disruption, and lacking either will make it difficult for victory because they'll eventually combo out on you.

I don't know what you'd bring in Slaughter Games for, I mean, it makes sense, to an extent, but it's not like their ways to kill you are few, like storm or show and tell, they don't have a specific trump card that closes it out for them. What would you name? Price? Fireblast? Bolt? You're still likely only to get 1, maybe 2 cards seen, they live off the top of their deck and redundancy, and unless you're casting 4 Slaughter Games in a game, I think the kind of proactive measures it'd bring aren't nearly strong enough to warrant bringing them in.

Re: Above.

Ichneumon Druid is absolutely hilarious. I approve. I also think the Wolfir Silverheart (I mean, I do love that card v. much) would be much better suited for a Thragtusk. Thragtusk is literally one of the best cards hands down that you can play with 4 GSZ in any format that has miracles & burn.

I agree that Thoughtseize is bad against Burn: I was more concerned about the Elves' matchup though when I built the side before though. Burn player actually recommended a split (3-2 or 2-2) between Thoughtseize and Inquisition however, so I'm gonna test how that works next time.

With Slaughter Games, I'd probably name Price of Progress first so I can afford to get greedy with my lands (excess green sources to be exact), then probably Sulfuric Vortex afterwards since it actually prevents me from stabilizing my life total with Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, or Thragtusk (which is nuts against burn: he actually scooped once I got him out).

[jobdevries]

Re: Above.

Ichneumon Druid is absolutely hilarious. I approve. I also think the Wolfir Silverheart (I mean, I do love that card v. much) would be much better suited for a Thragtusk. Thragtusk is literally one of the best cards hands down that you can play with 4 GSZ in any format that has miracles & burn. Is Peacekeeper your out vs Sneak and Show? What about Omni-Tell?



The reason Wolfir is a big one in this deck is Lingering Souls; though thragtusk is a good suggestion!
Peacekeeper can be an out to sneak and show, but also vs very aggressive decks. Omni-tell is not a much-used deck around here, but I suppose Qasali/Peacekeeper could be an out.
The MU I hate the most are unfair decks like combo. Normally after SB-ing in a lot of hate, I would stand an alright chance, so I am curious what Living Wish will do (little experience with it, as of yet).

[gigapatrick]

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

[Megadeus]

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

[GtF]

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

I'm down to 60 and no abrupt decays main, 1 in the board. It is really good in some matchups but I think it's necessary to max out on the best cards that jump start your engine (4 explorer, 4 brainstorm, 4 Deathrites). It's certainly a close call. I've cut Jitte since I found that whenever I was bringing it in, I didn't have card that I was thrilled to be boarding out for it. In other words, I think it is mostly helpful in matchups that are already good (except maybe elves). So I found the space more necessary for other things.

Gaze being able to hit planeswalkers is interesting. However I still think the downside of not being able to invest the mana over 2 turns makes it worse enough that I'd rather have deed. I haven't actually tested it.

[Arianrhod]

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

^Pretty much this

----

I've been on 61 for as long as I've been on Nic Fit (approaching 3 years now), and have never had an issue with it. There've been a lot of debates throughout the thread on it -- general consensus is that there isn't really a consensus. Mostly comes down to personal taste...some people would rather have the slightly higher % of having a given card in your opening hand / drawing that card, some would rather have an extra copy of something, an extra land, an extra toolbox option, or what-have-you.

[Megadeus]

My thought is that when you play a deck with 4 Tutors like green sun and such, having the extra green sun target in the main for random situations will be alot better than the extra few percentage points you lose when running 61

[benofzongo]

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

[Arianrhod]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ur/299

Selvala is extremely playable for GBW variants.

---------

The idea of a BUG Walkers (or GBW Walkers) list has been tossed around in here for basically as long as Nic Fit has been a thing. There's a few things that I don't agree with, but obviously he's had a lot of success with it.

[tadiou]

@Gigapatrick

I wasn't at SCG Cincy, but I should (employment gods be willing), be at SCG Somerset/New Jersey. I have the car, the room, the decks, i just have to figure out if I'll have a job by then so I could actually afford it.

I'm just hoping that when I go there I'm not going to be faced up vs burn for 1/3rd of my matches.

[GtF]

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

[Arianrhod]

I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

I'll echo this. The deck basically looks like bugstill Nic Fit edition, which is fine and good, but I think that more can be done. Losing Green Sun's Zenith makes sense since Explorers are the only creatures, but losing Zenith also seriously hinders your ramp development since you'er reliant on naturally drawing / Brainstorm for Explorers, which is subpar. I would consider Nature's Lore as the backup ramp source -- possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder, but I like the idea of grabbing duals with Lore to fix the divergent color requirements. The full 4 Bloods and Deeds make sense and I like those. I'd actually like to see a Deluge or a Damnation and maybe a pair of Decays as an additional removal, or perhaps to diversify the suite to solve more problems better.

Gitaxian Probe is strong and all, but it almost seems like a crutch to me. I hit the majority of my Therapies unassisted (admittedly, I've been playing with Therapy for wayyyyy too long now). Probe does help keep the blue count up for FoW postboard, which is good, but it's just too low-impact imo. Same with the Ponders and Hymns -- they feel too much like McDarby is trying to acquiesce to "accepted legacy standards," which I disagree with. Nic Fit isn't your standard legacy deck -- it doesn't function the same way, and trying to shoehorn in these low-impact support cards are going to end up with too many games where you run out of gas. Ponder is reasonable card selection, but I'd value Top more. I guess he might be still be trying to hedge blue count?

Running only 1 Baleful Strix is criminal in this deck IMO -- it blocks for planewalkers for days, cantrips, and is blue. I would also like to see 1-2 Batterskull in the 75 (adding 1 to 76, but that's my preference). This is also exactly the type of Nic Fit I would run an Aetherling in. 4 Jaces is 1 too many -- I would happily go down to 3 and incorporate a new 'walker of some kind, possibly Garruk, Primal Hunter (I don't think that Relentless does what this deck wants to do). Kiora is a strong contender as well, as is Tamiyo. I don't particularly like Liliana of the Veil, but I understand why he's running it and can accept it.

I disagree with GTF RE@Karn: I think that Karn is definitely fine. I'd agree to back him off to a 1-of, but I'd definitely keep him. He ranges from being either a generic pain in the ass to being genuinely insurmountable depending on the board state when he drops, and he's definitely worth it.

-------

I just the tl;dr is that I feel that his list is too focused and has too many low-impact cards. I'd look to diversify the threat base, add a backup ramp engine, and make the deck a little more Nic Fit and a little less every other BUG legacy deck in existence.

[benofzongo]

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

[Ralf]

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

[Arianrhod]

@Ralf:

I like that list a lot, actually, although I would suggest a few changes:

-------

-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Primeval Titan

-------
or
-------

-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Badlands

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Thragtusk

-------

sideboard:

-------

-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Slaughter Games

-1 Beast Within
+1 Batterskull

-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Golgari Charm

-------

There's two maindeck packages you can opt for. Adding Titan/Tower gives you access to the pseudoNightmare engine of the Two Towers, with Titan for easy lategame access. However, with 1 Witness, 1 Huntmaster, 1 Thrag, and 1 Titan, you don't have a ton of high-impact options to get back with Two Towers, and realistically, I'm not sure how great it would really be for you. Thus, the second option of making your mana a bit better and adding a second Thragtusk.

Thragtusk is the guy that 9/10 I want to be casting. He does basically everything that we want to do in Nic Fit, including and especially making blue players cry. Also, he hands down plays the best with Garruk, Primal Hunter of any monster. I played Jedi Jund in standard with those two, and it was very powerful -- they pair very well with each other.

The Badlands is because there will be times where you'll have Forest Fetch and you'll want to grab a B/R source.

2 Deathrites gives you 6 t1 ramp creatures, which I think should be enough, especially with 4 GSZ to ferret them out.

Something that I thought of but did not list was Chandra, Pyromaster. She -might- be good enough as a spicy 1-of to back up GPH in the CA department, but she would need testing and I'm hesitant to recommend her without actually knowing if she's good enough.

Otherwise, I like your maindeck a lot.

For sideboard, I would hands down run the first Golgari Charm over the first Deluge ... and probably the second Charm over the first Deluge as well. It's faster and more flexible, and you already have 3 Deeds as sweep....not sure you need another 'hard' sweeper. A faster, 'soft' sweep should do what you want there -- it still kills TNN and Elves, but has added flex vs Miracles and suchlike.

Beast Within is interesting and I'm reluctant to cut them. Normally that would be the first place I'd look to make space, but I think that they're definitely worth trying. That said, I think 2 is enough -- between Top and GPH (and oodles of removal), you'll find them when you need them. That opens the way for a Batterskull, which I'm rapidly coming to believe is one of the premier sideboard options (or possibly even maindeck options) for Nic Fit of most varieties. It's god against anything fair deck, and can help blindside Burn which can randomly be a challenging matchup.

2 Thoughtseize brings you to 6 t1 discard plays, which should be sufficient to have a reasonable chance of seeing one. I would much rather have the second Slaughter Games over the 7th 1cc discard. Games is simply the best anti-combo card we can run. It doesn't matter what type of combo they are, or if they have Force, or Misdirection, or anything. It simply says, "No."

One thing that I feel I should point out is that you are a little weak to Leyline of Sanctity -- but realistically, white versions are the only ones who can actually fight combo in multiple axes effectively. At least the only combo deck that usually runs Leyline is Sneak and Show, and you have 2 Bridge and 2 REBs for them, as well as Surgical to screw up their Intuition.

Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

[Ralf]

@Ralf:
...
Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

Thank you Arianrhod !

I'll definitely test your recommendations.
I'll opt for the 2nd Thragtusk package and as for the SB:

+1 Golgari
+1 Batterskull
-1 Toxic deluge
-1 Beast within

However, as a longtime player of one of your Valakut list (the one with 2 SLG main deck), I must confess I was never impressed much by SLG
4 CMC is a lot when it comes to fight "fast combo" and even with a BW package (so that we have virtually 7 copies of it), it was often "too late".

So basically I reached the conclusion that:
1) Thoughtseize is here for 2-3Turn Combo.deck
2) Slaughter is here for Control/Slower Combo.deck

But maybe it's just me...

Last question: "Batterskull", why ?

Except for Burn, I see it more as a win-more card against fair.deck but maybe you have some personal experience with it being huge against certain archetype you could share with me ?

PS: yesterday night I lived the dream:
T1= forest, Veteran
T2= phyrexian tower -> GPH...

Who said saucy ?

[Arianrhod]

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

--------------

I don't disagree that Games is slow, but it's an absolute lights-out when it hits. With Thoughtseize/Therapy, they can just draw into another [something that kills you]. Surgical removes that possibility from [target], but it needs the setup of [something] having already been countered/discarded. Games takes names, not prisoners. I agree with not running more than 2 copies of it -- heck, when I'm siding 3 Games in Scapewish, I usually only board two in and leave the third for Wish (exceptions exist, obviously, but in general). That being said, I think that the 2nd copy is important because as slow as it is, you really do want more of a chance at seeing one than a singleton provides. You likely won't have the ability to durdle with Top for too long, so it's not like you can dedicate 2-3 turns to digging for it.

As for Batterskull...

This dips a little into theoretical, but consider the number of times that you've seen Stoneblade decks dominate games with an invincible Batterskull. Nobody plays Krosan Grip anymore, so it's not like the damn thing can actually be gotten rid of shy of discarding it after making them bounce / countering it on the way down. Usually this involves 5 mana + active SFM (1W vial, 3 bounce). However, SFM dies, a lot, and Stoneblade decks frequently hit 8 mana (3 bounce, 5 recast). And even in these situations, where they're essentially time-walking themselves to keep replaying Skull, it still dominates.

Now think about Nic Fit.

I've said before (and will doubtless again) that Time is the single most important resource for Nic Fit as a deck. With enough Time, we can engineer a board state that is strictly insurmountable for most decks. This is one of the reasons that 12post and MUD are nightmare matchups for us -- they have the same ethos, but they go bigger than we do (well, MUD goes as big as we do, just faster at the cost of more instability, but you know what I mean).

Batterskull gains 4 life per swing, with vigilance. I typically use the "red standard" of Bolt when evaluating Time -- 3 life = 1 turn. Thus, on -strictly offense-, ignoring defense entirely, Batterskull gains 4 turns worth of Time per 3 attacks, or 1.25 turns per attack.

Vigilance throws this even more.

Consider a fairly standard RUG scenario. They have a 4/5 Goyf, a few lands, and a Bolt and maybe a useless Daze or Spell Pierce or some other bullshit in their hand. We have a pile of mana, a Batterskull, and say like 12 life. What are their options?

They can swing -- but if we don't block, we swing back to gain the 4 that we just lost back. This traps them into needing to draw a 2nd creature or us just completely locking them out of combat, with us drawing into more threats / removal / threat of Deed each turn. Alternatively they can swing and we can block, in which case we can just bounce/re-cast the Skull. In this scenario they're tying up our mana, but we're actively gaining life as opposed to just staying at 12. We're gaining 4 life/turn in that scenario, which as established above translates to a -1.25 on their clock in our favor.

Or, you know, they could not swing -- in which case we've already won. We're not spending resources, and we've bought multiple draw-steps while they search for some way to deal with the problem...which is probably a singleton Ancient Grudge that they didn't board in anyway. Their other options are digging for a Delver or finding a 2nd Tarmogoyf. That's it. Those are the only profitable options for them.

On top of all of that, you run Punishing Fire. You have the option of blocking their Goyf, gaining 4 life, then Punishing the Goyf to finish it off......and -then- bouncing and replaying the Skull.

It also has another 'mode' where you can actually use it like an equipment. Consider equipping Skull to a Garruk token. That makes a 7/7 lifelink vigilance. Only the halest of Goyfs will punch through that, and, again, you have vigilance where they don't, so at worst you're Mazing their Goyf every turn. 7 lifelink is 2.25 Time per attack. Over 3 turns, (say they had a chump blocker or two), you'll have gained 6.75 Time. If you're playing vs a fair deck (which you are, otherwise Skull wouldn't be sided in), how are they going to effectively deal with that? The things Nic Fit can do in almost 7 turns are profound, to put it mildly.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

[Ralf]

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

[Arianrhod]

Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

Basically anything that doesn't involve Tendrils of Agony or Show and Tell. Blade, Jund(k), Delver of various stripes, etc. Probably comes in vs Dredge since it laughs at Ichorids.

[taco-hell]

I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.

-----------------------------

@Arianrhod: Batterskull seems awesome in fair matchups. What are you generally boarding out for it? Are you bringing in 1 or 2?

I also really liked your thoughts on the Veteran Planeswalkers deck! I guess my biggest question with it is: could it be a real thing with enough tinkering? I guess the question there is, do creature-based Nic Fit/Pod lists just work better than Planeswalker-based ones? It seems like McDarby's done pretty well with his list, and your suggestions seem like they would help make the deck a bit more focused. I guess I just really like the idea of a Legacy Superfriends deck? Maybe that's dumb :rolleyes:

[Ralf]

This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.


Vraska has been discussed multiple times in the past.
Some like it, some not.

Personally, I like it "Hot" :D

You can see her as another liliana but with a "license to kill". It can close games and close out them fast.
Funny it is, I found that her +1 is what brings the more "power" to the table because it forces your opponent to react. Period.

In Magic christmas land, Vraska kills 1 turn sooner than GPH.

Anyway, make your own opinion and try to play Vraska in one of your list (or try mine if you want)

[Ecstatic_Conch]

This is mostly a question to Arianrhod, I saw your scapeshift lists and there was absolutely nothing in the 75 to combat graveyard strategies. Well, I guess you could count slaughter games but to even make it to the point that you could cast that card (turn 3 if you're optimistic off of a tribe elder or explorer) you're probably dead against re-animator or dredge. Another graveyard strategy that would also pretty much be an auto loss is oops all spells. So my question to you is how do you beat those decks? You certainly can't race them to a combo kill, because they're doing it much faster. Thoughtseize or cabal therapy certainly do work in two of the matchups I mentioned but do close to nothing against dredge.

Currently I'm playing one Scavenging Ooze in the main and two Surgical Extractions in the board to combat graveyard strategies, with the added bonus of surgical hosing most every other combo deck out there. I cannot overstate how important that scavenging ooze has been to actually give a reasonable chance against dredge game one. My list is pretty similar to the "Anti-Delver" one Arianrhod posted beyond those changes and no carpets. Carpet of flowers has been nothing but disappointment for me. If you play against miracles they just start fetching plateau or basic plains. Against deathblade they'll fetch scrubland and perhaps lean a bit more on deathrite. Besides, it's not like Carpet of Flowers advances you towards your main goal which is having actual lands in play, not mana in the pool. I understand that perhaps it allows you to cast more "ramp" spells or a fattie faster but why play something that gets deeded away? I just find there's simply no room for the card in the sideboard, especially with so many slots taken up with wish targets. I'm not playing a second thragtusk because I won't go up to 61 cards but I could see having a second as more incentive to play carpets.

My board looks like this right now:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Slaughter Games

My meta has at least 3 miracles decks in it and slaughter games has always been insane against them. Naming jace is lights out. Especially if you have the deed for entreat. I lived the dream once of casting it twice naming jace and entreat and he was reduced to laughably trying to beat me down with a snapcaster mage (which to his credit he got me reasonably low).

I played against lands at SCG Detroit and he had the nuts two games straight with turn 2 dark depths plus stage because of exploration. Game two he had depths in hand and intuitioned for three stages on my endstep, untapped, played both and I died in short order. The reason I mention this particular matchup is that the only way to reasonably interact with the combo beyond perhaps slaughter games would be surgical. If I had mulliganed more aggressively into one I would have been in good shape to win the game by surgical extractioning one of the stages he had to bin. I asked him after the match what other win conditions he was running and he said the dark depths combo was it beyond punishing fire, which is obviously a slow grindy way of winning but certainly possible. But my point still stands that scapewish needs some way to interact with the graveyard in a manner more timely than slaughter games.

[pfiremc13]

Thoughts on spirit of the labyrinth:

It seems like a sideboard card for the nic fit decks that want to run it. Against most decks, the purpose of it is to gain incremental advantage by disabling cantrips, but it really is not suited for lategame. The body is not big enough to make much of an impact. In addition, it is too narrow to run multiple copies maindeck, and the only ways to tutor for it are slow (academy rector and birthing pod). By the time those cards are active, you'll rarely want to tutor for it and combo will have already won.

In response to the discussion about batterskull, I think I would maindeck it in many versions: it's no more dead against combo than any other bomb.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Just a thought regarding the Miracles matchup: would it be viable to sacrifice Veteran Explorer to Cabal Therapy after they spin Top (referring to tap activated ability: still not sure what 'spinning top' refers to in M:tG terms) so that the top gets shuffled into their library OR they choose to fail to find and we come out two basic lands ahead of them?

Best part is that even if they do brainstorm to save the top, you can still name it with Therapy, meaning the top either gets lost in their library or binned in the yard.

[UseLess]

I suppose it would, but how often will they use top in their own turn to draw an extra card? Especially if you have an explorer out they might see the risks of it. Forcing the ability with a abrupt decay seems excessive and better to use the decay for a counterbalance. Blowing up a deed when they have top and you veteran would work though. That will force them to choose.

[pettdan]

@EpicLevelCommoner & Useless: unfortunately Cabal Therapy is a sorcery so you can't cast it in response to anything.

Regarding Batterskull against combo/Tendrils I tend to keep 2 mystic and 1 skull (boarding out 1 skull) in my junk build. My reasoning is that you need some way of dealing damage to the combo player; lifegain is relevant since they don't always manage to storm more than 20-25 (seems like it to me at least), especially when losing life points; 4 mana for 5 power is ok; it leaves you a body for Cabal Therapy.

And regarding Spirit of the Labyrinth my plan is to use it as a follow up to discard (4 Therapy + 4 Thoughtseize) to prevent opponent from cantripping into a combo. And Living Wish to get it when it's relevant. Also expecting it to help vs Griselbrand and Enter the Infinite.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ pettdan: True but it doesnt need to be an instant to use effectively in this scenario. Just proper sequencing.

1. Play Cabal Therapy from hand naming Top.
2. They play Top if they miracle it.
3. Play some kind of removal on Top itself.
4. They spin Top to save it.
5. Play Veteran Explorer then retain priority to flashback Cabal Therapy.
6. They Brainstorm in response to Explorer trigger avoid losing Top to their library.
7. When Cabal Therapy resolves, name Top again.

Like UseLess said, Deed plus Vet is way more efficient, but regardless of which method you choose, the ability to disable a key part of their strategy looks very promising for us.

[tadiou]

Just to nitpick. You don't have to retain priority on step 5. Between after you cast it and when it resolves you don't have to retain priority because there's no ETB trigger, there's no need for retaining priority because you have it after your opponent chooses if it resolves or not.

It's also a reasonable assumption that they won't care about the top on their library if they have a Jace in hand or anything.

[pettdan]

@EpicLevelCommoner: I see, thanks for the explanation!

[gigapatrick]

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

[Arianrhod]

@Conch:

My stance on graveyard decks with Scapewish is that it takes too much effort to fix, and therefore isn't worth trying. 2 Surgicals and 1 Ooze is not sufficient to effectively interact with Reanimator, Dredge, Lands, and other such villains -- and I'm saying this as someone whose best friend / roommate mains Reanimator as his deck of choice. He's literally mulled to 4 with Reanimator and beat my keep of 7. It's simply not winnable -- and to fix it would require minimum of 5-7 slots between main and side, which is just infeasible if we want to maintain win percentages against other, more popular decks. Furthermore, most of the effective hate options are narrow (see Tormod's Crypt), and are only useful vs graveyard.

Reanimator is the stone worst of these -- Dredge you can race, and same with Lands. Sometimes Lands will derp into Merit Lage and there's not much you can do about that, but the rest of the time you should be able to race to your combo and just kill them -- they can't interact. Huntmasters and Thragtusks can allow you to soak one hit from Merit Lage -- and if you can get Broodmate Dragon out (if you list runs him at the time), he can soak 2 Lage hits, which should be enough time for you to dig into a Scapeshift or a Wish, hopefully. Vs Dredge, don't forget that your Sakura-Tribe Elders are essentially Surgical Extractions for his Bridge from Belows. Also, don't forget that, while slow, Slaughter Games does technically qualify as graveyard hate. It still does what you want it to do vs Ichorid etc.

As for Carpet, specifically vs Miracles it's kind of a gamble. They do need 1-2 Islands in play to function, and even at 1 Island in play, Carpet is still better than Veteran Explorer is in the matchup. Sometimes the gamble really pays off and they have a hand with like 2 tundra 1 island as their mana sources and your Carpets are huge. Sometimes it doesn't and they have like Island fetch fetch and they play around it. Happens. The thing is that Miracles can take advantage of our Explorers arguably better than we can -- we can both "win the game" with enough basics in play (Entreat vs Scapeshift), but the difference is that they run Force of Will (among other counterspells) and they can protect their counterspells by leaving them on Top of their deck, where we can't interact with Therapy. This gives them the advantage in the ramp war. We need to lean on our Sakura-Tribes and Wood Elves in this matchup. I guess you're suggesting still boarding out Veterans, but just not boarding in any other ramp/fixing to replace them?

The main thing that the Carpets are for are vs the various Delver tempo strategies, where we typically need as much mana ramp as humanly possible to fight through their Stifles/Pierces/Dazes/Wastes/etc. If you're not on the 2nd Thragtusk, I can agree that Carpet loses a bit of its luster....although I would reiterate the importance of the 2nd Thragtusk and would suggest that if you're adamant on staying at 60, cutting a Huntmaster for the 2nd Tusk is likely wise. It's possible that the Carpets are best saved for other versions and that they aren't a great fit for Scapewish, but I need to experiment a bit more before I can make that proclamation. I really enjoy a good Carpet of Flowers -- it's just so incredibly backbreaking for tempo and control decks, but I do need to recognize that my love for the card might be coloring my opinion.

Note that if I were to remove Carpets from my sideboard, I would 100% replace 2 of them with Abrupt Decays (bringing me to 4 Decays total in the anti-delver config). If we can't go over the top of the delver deck, we need to interact with them in more traditional terms.

While we're on the subject of Slaughter Games stories, I had so much fun with Games at SCG Columbus a few years ago -- the one where I made top 16. I played vs Miracles twice -- one match I left him with just snapcasters and 1 clique for win conditions, the other IIRC I took his Force of Wills and just killed him. Then, a few rounds later, I played vs High Tide. Oh my god was that guy a sad panda.

[MD.Ghost]

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

BUG Pod - i "fixed" the common build with:

-1 Veteran Explorer (3 total)
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Abrupt Decay (2 @Side)
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Deathrite Shaman (4 total)
+1 Trinket Mage (3 Drop Slot)
+1 Engineered Explosives (Removal Slot / Decay)
+1 Pithing Needle (answers many problematic permanents and nobody expects a maindeck needle)

Against Miracle all works good, Deathrite is much stronger than Explorer (nobody wants to ramp into jace/entreat), Trinket Mage (better Body) brings all the good stuff: Needle vs Sensei or if needed Jace, Explosives vs Entreat, Counterbalance or if needed (with Deathrite Mana) for Jace.

Needle vs Sensei is almost the most important move, if the can't use top the will lose most of the time.

I don't fear Miracle with BUG Pod - sure, Entreat & Jace are stronger than most stuff we can cast, but a lot of "enter the battlefield" creatures (against terminus & co) and/or active pod is still aggressiv enough.

[Arianrhod]

A couple of pages back Gtf spoke of how hard the Miracles matchup is for Bug Pod and wondered how we could beat it (besides tight play, of course). Aetherling has already been proposed and adopted, and Abrupt Decay usually sits somewhere in the list, so those are a couple of ways to interact with Miracles (in the case of Aetherling rather, to keep Miracles from interacting with you). How viable would having a couple of decent Planeswalkers on the board be? I'm not sure which Planeswalker would be best in Bug colors, but having a Planeswalker on the battlefield that presents a decent threat so that Miracles simply can't sit around and do its thing seems like a reasonable strategy. Thoughts anyone?

Some time ago, I expressed the idea of Combat vs Utility planeswalkers. In a nutshell summary: Utilities are your Jaces, your Lilianas, your Kioras, etc -- they produce card advantage and usually have some variety of removal attached to them. Combat walkers are your Elspeths, your Sorins, your Garruks -- they produce pressure via creating tokens, augmenting the combat step (Elspeth 1.0's redbull), and so forth. I've had a lot of success over time running Combat walkers vs control decks. Legacy is set up to handle Utility walkers -- the Jace and Lily show has dominated for so long that decks are created with ways of dealing with those two. People tend not to run the Combat walkers that much -- and Combat walkers, incidentally, beat the Utility walkers in a heads up confrontation.

Unfortunately for your purpose, most of the combat walkers tend to be white in nature.

Your best bet is probably somewhere in the Garruk family -- Relentless or Primal Hunter. Relentless comes down quicker and does a good bitterblossom impersonation (wolfblossom?), but the tokens are 2/2s and thus trade with Snapcasters. However, Relentless is also more usable vs Delver decks, since at worst case he's a 4-mana removal spell for Delver. Primal Hunter's tokens are better (bigger...they don't trade with Snap and thus keep applying pressure), but he's also slower and his mana is much more restrictive (GGG, baby baby baby). That being said, Primal Hunter also has built in card advantage, and can be a nightmare for control decks because not only does he vomit 3/3s while gaining loyalty, he can also draw 3-5 cards.

-------

This actually has me thinking.

Lorwyn 5:

Jace Beleren -- utility. Best with Sun Titan, which is a color nonbo. Worse than other Jaces in absence of legend rule.
Chandra Nalaar -- utility....no.
Ajani Goldmane -- utility....no.
Liliana Vess -- utility. Reasonable option. 5-spot is rough, but it keeps them hellbent forever and the ult is scary. Can also Demonic Tutor with Top in play.
Garruk Wildspeaker -- utility. Can make a dude, but costs loyalty = bad. Untapping lands could be sweet but Wasteland discourages us from running many cool lands.

Shards:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant -- combat. All-star for white based versions.
Sarkhan Vol -- utility. This actually seems like something that we should consider. Can take their scary thing, or can give a recently played/zenithed guy haste. Ult should win the game.
Tezzeret, the Seeker -- utility. Maybe if some artifact combo ala Vault-Key gets printed.
Ajani Vengeant -- utility. Strong option but suffers from colors -- RW is bad for Nic Fit.
Nicol Bolas, PW -- utility. Arguably the strongest planeswalker in terms of abilities, but Grixis is a bad combination for Nic Fit.

Zendikar:

Nissa Revane -- combat (by virtue of summoning a Chosen). There may be some weird Elves/Nic Fit hybrid somewhere, but I doubt it.
Chandra Ablaze -- haha.
Sorin Markov -- utility. Very color-intensive, but that could be used to our advantage. I could see a straight G/B version with this guy and Grey Merchant.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- utility. Obviously one of the best ever.
Gideon Jura -- combat. This guy is underused imo. Can completely take over a board state, and gets abusive with strong / deathtouching blockers, then proceeds to win game. Downside is that he animates, rendering him open to StP.
Sarkhan the Mad -- utility. Strong consideration for jund colors -- has card advantage, can make a Veteran into a 5/5 flyer, ult is lulzy but Broodmate is a card we sometimes play.

Mirrodin 2.0:

Elspeth Tirel -- combat. worse than other Elspeths.
Venser, the Sojourner -- utility. Powerful set of abilities, but UW is a bad color combination for Nic Fit.
Koth of the Hammer -- combat. Probably not good enough for our purposes.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas -- combat. Powerful abilities, but needs a very specific build to be taken advantage of. I give the nod to combat because if he animates something that was already in play, it can attack out of nowhere...but he has a lot of utility too.
Karn Liberated -- utility. 2nd most powerful next to Bolas. Castable by any Nic Fit -- only really usable as a singleton, but is definitely strong. Note that his utility is somewhat combative -- why attack Jace TMS when you can just straight exile him?

Innistrad:

Liliana of the Veil -- utility. Obviously insane. Not a huge fan of her in Nic Fit, but she can certainly be good for certain builds in certain situations.
Garruk Relentless -- combat. One of the better Garruks. Flipping can be challenging, but is generally fine as a wolfblossom with upside.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad -- combat. One of the best combat options. Lifelinking chumpers/attackers adds Time, emblem can be used when on beatdown, ult is very powerful.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage -- utility. I like Tamiyo, but she's never really actually good enough.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded -- you're kidding, right.

Return to Ravnica:

Jace, Architect of Thought -- utility. Powerful card, but better suited to modern where we don't have the 'best' Jace.
Vraska, the Unseen -- utility. Good removal I guess, but the rest of her kit is kind of mediocre.
Domri Rade -- utility. Solid card advantage in conjunction with Top, but our creatures tend to be smaller than your average Goyf, and thus the -2 is probably irrelevant. Getting him to emblem seems strong, though.
Ral Zarek -- utility. Ultimate is nuts for Nic Fit, but he's in bad colors for us and the rest of his kit leaves to be desired.
Gideon, Champion of Justice -- utility.....and no.

Theros:

Elspeth, Sun's Champion -- combat. My pick for most underrated on the list. Yes, she conflicts with the other playable Elspeth. Yes, this Elspeth costs 6. However, 3 dudes for +1 is absolutely bonkers, and her wrath takes out a lot of problems. Unfortunately she's ill-positioned against Delver and True-Name, but she's very strong against basically everything else.
Xenagos, the Reveler -- combat. His wolfblossom is better than Garruk's, since Satyrs have haste. He can also serve as mana generation should that be needed. His ultimate is lackluster, but he's probably still slightly better than Garruk Relentless if you're in GR since Relentless flips so rarely.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -- utility. He/she/it is fast, at 3-mana (which means easily t2able after Therapy/Explorer). He/She/It protects themselves by putting something taken into play, which most of legacy's CMC is so low that they'll always be able to get something. I dunno -- this is a consideration.
Kiora, the Crashing Wave -- utility. I loveeeeeee Kiora. She forces the opponent to overcommit into your Deed, she stops lifelink from opposing Batterskulls, she stops Jitte from getting counters (obviously if they only have one creature), she ramps, she cantrips, and her emblem wins games.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes -- utility. Kind of a question mark. Might be better than he first looked....not sure.

Core Set Upgrades:

Ajani, Caller of the Pride -- ....no
Chandra Pyromaster -- utility. Good card advantage, reasonable +1, useless ultimate. I'd guess that she's playable in the same way as she is in modern -- as a 1-of for value.
Chandra, the Firebrand -- utility. Interesting kit with interesting abilities. Her -2 is very build-around. Her +1 is whatever, and her ult is whatever. But copying a Zenith for 5 is insane, let alone if we go deeper, like, say, Genesis Wave....which goes well with Xenagos.....hmmmm....
Jace, Memory Adept -- -- utility. This guy amuses me. He's worse than Jace TMS in the abstract, but he actually kills a lot quicker. I think that this might be the solution to the BUG Pod Miracles problem -- what they hell are they doing to do to him?
Garruk, Primal Hunter -- combat. Good guy, mana intensive, but produces powerful tokens and threatens card advantage. Ult wins the game on the next untap...or immediately if there's a Sarkan Vol involved.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts -- utility. Utility Garruk is bad Garruk. I would rather play Ajani-green over this guy.
Liliana of the Dark Realms -- utility. no.

There's a breakdown of all of the planeswalkers which are currently in existence. When Dack comes out, he'll be a "utility - no."

---------------

The take-away:

Jace, Memory Adept is probably the control breaker that BUG Pod is looking for. Ashiok is another reasonable option, but shines more against things like Shardless and Deathblade than it does vs Miracles.

Xenagos and Chandra, Firebrand go reallllllllllly well together. I've been thinking about Genesis Wave for a little while now, and this is probably the angle to attack it from. Warp World is arguably better, but unfortunately planeswalkers don't come in off of Warp, so that kind of caboshes that.

Most of the best planeswalkers are white. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is the Titan-cycle of planeswalkers. She's expensive, but she's worth it. The issue is dealing with Delver and TNN -- she handles literally everything else.

Both Sarkhans are probably under-utilized -- especially Vol, which is very powerful in conjunction with a certain class of cards.

Kiora is love, Kiora is life.

[gigapatrick]

@Arianrhod

Thanks for your comprehensive analysis of the planeswalkers. My initial thoughts were to try out either 2 Primal Hunter or 2 Kiora in the board for the Miracles matchup. Primal Hunter as you say puts a lot of pressure on the board and has two other reasonably good abilities (though I'd be careful about the ultimate, since it can be wiped away with Terminus), and getting to three trees to cast him seems feasible (though less so when you take Explorer out for the second game). Kiora, on the other hand, presents an ultimate that wins the game very quickly and protects herself while doing so (while providing a Coiling Oracle effect if you need it). I overlooked Memory Adapt, probably because who really thinks of milling someone as a viable win condition in Legacy? My instinct is to try out Primal Hunter first, since unlike Memory Adapt, I feel like he'd be viable versus other controllish decks (e.g., Deathblade, Jund, Shardless, etc.) whereas Memory Adapt wouldn't be. Again, thanks for the advice.

[Ralf]

From experience:

I played Ashiok in my BUG walker fit during 2 months (as a 1-of). It did win me a lot of games against miracle (close to each time I drew it). I imagine Jace, Memory adept would be "faster" in killing but I like the fact that Ashiok is "growing" in loyalties, making it a real pain for Miracle players (quickly out of reach for a clique / SCM).
Anyway, Liliana of the Veil is already such a pain in the as... for Miracle that I would firstly stick with her before considering other options to deal with Control.decks (notwithstanding that she also "represents" kind of inevitability against combo when their hand is depleted...) .


Nicol Bolas / Karn liberated are amazing but can realistically be cast in so few match-ups for NicFit that I doubt they have a room in Legacy right now.

I strongly encourage anyone to try the "green" walkers (relentless and Primal) as they are "DAT" powerful against midrange.decks and help you to overwhelm your opponent's board.

To conclude, as far as legacy is concerned, NicFit "walkers" should at least play Liliana of the Veil. It is just the best "utility" walker for NicFit.

[GtF]

@Arianrhod

Thanks for your comprehensive analysis of the planeswalkers. My initial thoughts were to try out either 2 Primal Hunter or 2 Kiora in the board for the Miracles matchup. Primal Hunter as you say puts a lot of pressure on the board and has two other reasonably good abilities (though I'd be careful about the ultimate, since it can be wiped away with Terminus), and getting to three trees to cast him seems feasible (though less so when you take Explorer out for the second game). Kiora, on the other hand, presents an ultimate that wins the game very quickly and protects herself while doing so (while providing a Coiling Oracle effect if you need it). I overlooked Memory Adapt, probably because who really thinks of milling someone as a viable win condition in Legacy? My instinct is to try out Primal Hunter first, since unlike Memory Adapt, I feel like he'd be viable versus other controllish decks (e.g., Deathblade, Jund, Shardless, etc.) whereas Memory Adapt wouldn't be. Again, thanks for the advice.

I like the idea of one of the Garruks moreso than Kiora or Ashiok. The reasoning is that if they are playing O-Ring/Detention Sphere and find it for the planeswalker, the latter two have accomplished almost nothing (in Kiora's case, actually nothing if you didn't get to ultimate). The Garruks at least have been pressuring them the whole time and left behind a bunch of creatures they have to deal with. The creatures are also useful for attacking Jace, which is the real way Miracles wins. Garruk Relentless has the advantage of being less mana and the tutoring ability could occasionally be relevant in a pod list. Primal Hunter is more powerful once it's in play. My plan involves siding out Veteran Explorers, which makes me shy away from playing Primal Hunter. A disadvantage of Relentless is that a flashed-in V. Clique kills it in one swing.
A trinket mage to find Needle would also help immensely - Needle is great against Miracles and is the single best answer to Top. It has some negative synergy with Deed, but after playing the matchup, I think Deed is actually not that great. A few could stay in as insurance against entreat the angels, but it is an extremely inefficient answer to counterbalance (5 mana total), blows up our own permanents, which we need to pressure them, and can't deal with a Jace at all.

[Arianrhod]

Deed was a lot more relevant against Miracles when they were on the RIP/Helm plan, because you could let it sit there and use it to stop their combo from being assembled. It's definitely not as good against them anymore.

[Firepaw3]

Went 5-2-1 at Tales 40 duals tournament yesterday with 2 unintentional draws early making it all the way to the last round before getting knocked out
I played Kevins anti-combo scapewish list
Shardless BUG 2-0
Punishing maverick depths- 1-1-1
UWr Delver 2-0
Paintedstone 1-1-1
Shardless BUG 2-1
Lands 2-1
4c Deathblade 1-2

Slaughtergames was amazing against paintedstone and Lands in the main deck and I was fortunate enough not to draw them in my other match-ups, and Huntmaster of the fells won me almost every game. throughout the day I wished I had a second Eternal witness to GSZ for, why was the second one cut? just too narrow?

Playing the deck yesterday I thought I played very well in all the games but feel like I stumbled alot with side boarding, Im always hesitant to take out any ramp and usually just bring in 2 cards and cut the slaughtergames in fair matchups, does anyone have a sideboard guide for the anti-combo version for these MU?

[tadiou]

A trinket mage to find Needle would also help immensely - Needle is great against Miracles and is the single best answer to Top. It has some negative synergy with Deed, but after playing the matchup, I think Deed is actually not that great. A few could stay in as insurance against entreat the angels, but it is an extremely inefficient answer to counterbalance (5 mana total), blows up our own permanents, which we need to pressure them, and can't deal with a Jace at all.

Trinket + EE covers the same bases as deed vs entreat as well. Just a thought. Needle's good, and when you go down that path, EE's also relevant and you can even run a SB GY hate to fix any problems that you might have in that matchup (even though I haven't had a ton of problems vs reanimator or dredge since i've gone up to 4 DRS's anyway) in tormod's crypt (i wouldn't run relic ever).

EE also can hit troublesome planeswalkers too with a bit of finagling (cough JTMS). And that's not even to say that needle isn't a great answer to a lot of things mainboard. It's a dead card preboard vs rug delver decks (and storm, really), but it's not vs everything else pretty much. Needle on top and EE on 0 vs Miracles is a good place to be in, and you're basically fighting through jaces and v.cliques which is a much better fight to be having than the other aspect of the deck.

I'll probably swing that package this thursday after I finish up my standard testing for SCGNJ this weekend... or I'll end up playing audibling to TES. One of the two.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

People were talking about walkers in Nic Fit and specifically the ones good against miracles and I have to put in a vote for Kiora. I had a friend playing it in his Bant sideboard to bring in against all the miracles decks in our meta. One of the miracles players at my shop called it "Unbeatable." I am a little afraid that it's a bit narrow though, because so many of the top decks play true name (which you obviously can't target) or lightning bolt or delver. Still, some of these delver decks play one threat and then try to counter everything else you play for the rest of the game. If you strip him of all his counters and stick the kiora it neutralizes delver. Other decks Kiora could be good against: Cloudpost, MUD, Shardless bug (depending on how threat dense), Pox by virtue of how threat light they are, but probably not delver decks. The aforementioned friend brought in kiora against me while I was playing Sam Blacks Zombardment deck and targeted my goblin bombardment, which was sadly enough to win him the game :tongue:.

Re: Slaughter Games stories. Versus high tide in a tournament for a Moat, in game one I burning wished for slaughter games. My opponent read the card and kept setting up to go off by making land drops, cantripping, and playing candles. I cast it on turn 4 and he tries to force of will it. I pointed at the first line of the card and his face just kind of sank. After naming high tide he immediately scooped. Game two I shredded his hand and slaughter games again sealed the game. This time he cunning wished for the one high tide in his sideboard and tried to go off anyway, but alas, one high tide was nowhere near enough to do anything with.

[gigapatrick]

On Trinket Mage in Bug Pod:

If one were to run him, how many fetchable artifacts do you think you'd need to run maindeck for him to be useful?

Also, while Engineered Explosives seems an obvious inclusion if one runs Trinket Mage, is a maindeck Pithing Needle really where you want to be? Or would you rather have something like Nihil Spellbomb maindeck?

On Kiora:

I can see how she would be unbeatable versus Miracles, or at least very good--but why would you want to bring her in versus a Delver deck at all? I can see bringing her in against midrange decks where she's going to have time to build up to her ultimate, but four mana for an approximation of Maze of Ith against a deck that wants to tempo you out doesn't seem very good to me. Granted, I haven't tested with her, so maybe I'm just underestimating her in this type of matchup, but right now I envision two spots on Bug Pod's board for two walkers that will help with the control matchups (specifically Miracles but also Deathblade, Jund, and Shardless) as opposed to the tempo and aggro matchups. The Delver decks already seem like good MU's, so I think you'd just board in your third Deed. I agree with you though that Kiora might be decent against something like Cloudpost, which takes several turns to set up.