[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

I love how everyone has a favorite Slaughter Games story, lol.

Re@Kiora vs True-Name: We need to set up our deck to be able to beat True-Name anyway. I don't think TNN is really an issue where Kiora is concerned -- if we can't deal with that guy, we lose anyway.

Kiora actually seems awesome vs Delver decks, for the reason you already said -- they're fond of sticking one threat and then countering everything. Kiora forces them to commit more to the board, so we can blow them out harder with Deed. By contrast, Kiora will do nothing to Cloudpost unless you're Exploring a bunch of times to build to some combo or other.

Re@Pithing Needle -- it's not actually dead preboard vs RUG. You can still name Wasteland with it if you have it in your opening hand / draw it early on. Usually Wasteland isn't that relevant to us, but sometimes they have hands and we have hands where it is, and it's a reasonable purpose for Needle vs that deck.

Re@Firepaw -- man, that sucks. You must've been like 10thish I'm guess at the end? Still a good run, for sure.

Here's how I would have sided each matchup that you played vs:

Shardless BUG -- -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Veteran Explorer, +2 Red Elemental Blast

You leave in the Slaughters here, because they usually leave in/board in Force of Will against us. Slaughtering Force means that whenever you draw a Scapeshift or a Burning Wish with 7-8 lands out, you just win -- it removes their meaningful interaction. Therapy and Veteran are both fairly low impact here, so they can be shaved down to 3s to slide in a pair of REBs to help take out Ancestral Visions, protect from Forces, counter TNN, and counter/blow up Jaces.

Punishing maverick depths -- -2 Slaughter Games, +2 Liliana of the Veil

Burning Wishing a Slaughter Games to take out his Punishing Fires is reasonable, but the card isn't relevant enough to have maindeck here. Lilianas provide you with a way to solve Merit Lage, which is far and away your only real threat. You can Deed / Deluge / whatever his board, then Liliana -2 to kill the token. Just be very careful about using her +1 too much -- I would only use it if you're hellbent or you can spare like a land to get her to 2x edict range. With Punishing Fire, your opponent is the better Liliana deck -- you just want the extra removal over the extraction effect here.

UWr Delver -- -1 Primeval Titan, -2 Slaughter Games, +3 Red Elemental Blast

Pretty obvious. Thragtusk are Huntmaster are usually god here, so you don't need Primeval Titan / you don't want to try to fight through their disruption to land him. Slaughters are almost useless here -- you can take their Forces to try to just brute force them, but the real threat is Delver of Secrets into an aggressive, not their countermagic. Just watch out for Daze -- if you have the opportunity to REB a Delver on the stack but can't play around Daze, it's probably worth it to allow them to resolve the Delver, play a 2nd land, and then blow it up.

Paintedstone -- +3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Liliana of the Veil; -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Primeval Titan, -2 Thragtusk, -2 Huntmaster of the Fells, -2 Veteran Explorer

I'd rather have the unconditional never-miss of Thoughtseize than the guessing game of Therapy here, but having a 1cc discard to wish for is still important. REB is fine vs UR Painter on its own right -- vs Imperial it's kind of a mind game, because they usually call blue. They could call black (or something) to play around your REBs, but then they're playing around themselves since they have 6-8 of that effect maindeck as well. Liliana is solid because they both like having cards in hand and rely on a solitary creature combo/engine piece, which is easily -2'd.

A solitary Huntmaster is your remaining creature wincon -- otherwise you're on the E.Wit/Wood Elves beatdown plan. Basically, you try to play the controlling combo deck role this game -- your actual "bombs" are Slaughter Games and your Scapeshifts...you stop him from winning, and win yourself. Note that usually Painter sides in Ensnaring Bridge, which is why you leave in a Huntmaster over the Primeval Titan -- you can control the flips and still kill the opponent through Bridge with that guy, while Titan just stands there looking across sadly.

Shardless BUG -- same as earlier.

Lands -- -2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Primeval Titan; +1 Slaughter Games, +2 Liliana of the Veil

Your discard is useless here, and the wish->games plan is slower than you would like it to be, which means you board in the 3rd Games. Lilianas are, again, strictly for the -2 for Merit Lage. After Slaughter Games takes Life from the Loam, her +1 becomes somewhat reasonable, actually -- but keep in mind that they too usually run Ensnaring Bridge.

4c Deathblade -- I wouldn't sideboard here.

You're already ludicrously favored in this matchup. Slaughter Games is on the shardless bug plan -- take their Force of Wills, then win the game. Alternatively, you can take their Jaces/True-Name, but I find removing their interaction to be a better way to go -- our things are better than theirs. Liliana isn't good enough here, since they have a lot of random dudes, and, again, our things are better than theirs so discarding is bad.

The second Eternal Witness was cut forever ago because this deck just doesn't really have a ton of things to Witness back usually. One copy has always been enough for me. -shrug-.

-------------------------------------

So, who saw Drew Levin's article on SCG today?

I'll not go over all of how/why he built the deck, but I will copypasta his conclusion:

Creatures (23)

4 Bloodghast
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Windborn Muse
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 He Who Hungers
1 Iname, Death Aspect
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2 Keiga, the Tide Star
3 Yosei, the Morning Star

Lands (21)

1 Forest
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

Spells (16)

4 Recurring Nightmare
4 Entomb
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Cataclysm
2 Massacre
4 Thoughtseize


He built the deck to abuse Recurring Nightmare, because that was the card his readers requested. To that end, he didn't really build it....Nic Fit-y, if that makes sense. He just shoehorned Veteran Explorer in because he wanted the mana to cast his dragons the real way and because he was playing Therapy anyway (Bloodghast synergy). That's why there is no Rector, Deed, etc other obvious includes.

That being said, there are a lot of interesting ideas here. Most centrally to them is Iname, Death Aspect. That's a very, very powerful effect on a 6-drop.

Speaking of powerful, he goes into a judge aside wherein he explains that when Keiga is sacrificed to a Sneak Attack/Breached Emrakul trigger, you gain control of the Emrakul permanently (it doesn't sacrifice at endstep). I mean, that's nowhere near enough reason to splash blue for Keiga in an otherwise completely GBW deck, but it's interesting and possibly relevant to BUG version players.

So yeah. That Iname.

Running more than 1 Yosei seems pointless since Iname will tutor for it. Obviously we're not splashing Keiga -- and I think that Kokusho is just sufficiently worse than Yosei that we shouldn't run him either. Maybe a 1-of at most. Quadruple entombing Bloodghasts is pretty sexy, so those can probably hang out.

Hmm.

Time for a gatherer search...

Relevant Spirits:

Bloodghast
Carven Caryatid
Celestial Kirin
Crypt Ghast
Dearly Departed
Eidolon of Rhetoric
Eternal Dragon
Evershrike
Ghost Council of Orzhova
He Who Hungers
Iname, Death Aspect
Iname, Life Aspect
Infernal Kirin
Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Kami of False Hope
Karador, Ghost Chieftain (!!!)
Karmic Guide
Kodama of the South Tree
Liege of the Hollows
Lifespinner (with Lingering Souls)
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Seedborn Muse
Seizan, Perverter of Truth
Tallowisp
Wall of Reverence


That's quite a list, and there's some really interesting stuff in there. Karador in particular is absolutely massive. Dearly Departed is amusing, but could be actually somewhat good depending on its support. Elspeth SC dropping 6-power of guys with one +1 seems strong in particular.

Both of the Kirins are of particular interest to me, since both of those effects are absolutely ludicrous. Evershrike makes the list mostly off of the fact that its art is stunningly gorgeous, but there -could- be a deck lurking with Tallowisp somewhere.

Both Obzedats are quite powerful, although they suffer a bit from being in a format with Swords to Plowshares. He Who Hungers seems like it has a good effect, although I tend to like the Kirin better for a discard guy.

Karador and Kami of False Hope can together link up to provide a combat lockdown similar to Archangel + Spike Weaver.

Lifespinner, as noted with Lingering Souls, is actually a very reasonable tutor engine for the nongreen legendary spirits. Spinner can sacrifice itself + 2 Souls to grab Iname, for example, which then sets up whatever other engines you want. In fact, the sequence of GSZ -> Lifespinner, Souls, tap Spinner, tutor Iname, entombing [x] + Karador, play Karador, play Spinner, flashback Souls, tutor something else....etc....seems reasonable. That's a level of card advantage that we don't usually get to partake of.

I need some time to dissect all of this and actually ponder it. There definitely does seem like there's something here, though -- the synergy with Karador in particular is just too massive.

I also have another brew bouncing around that I will hopefully be able to present soon.

[GtF]

On Trinket Mage in Bug Pod:

If one were to run him, how many fetchable artifacts do you think you'd need to run maindeck for him to be useful?

Also, while Engineered Explosives seems an obvious inclusion if one runs Trinket Mage, is a maindeck Pithing Needle really where you want to be? Or would you rather have something like Nihil Spellbomb maindeck?

On Kiora:

I can see how she would be unbeatable versus Miracles, or at least very good--but why would you want to bring her in versus a Delver deck at all? I can see bringing her in against midrange decks where she's going to have time to build up to her ultimate, but four mana for an approximation of Maze of Ith against a deck that wants to tempo you out doesn't seem very good to me. Granted, I haven't tested with her, so maybe I'm just underestimating her in this type of matchup, but right now I envision two spots on Bug Pod's board for two walkers that will help with the control matchups (specifically Miracles but also Deathblade, Jund, and Shardless) as opposed to the tempo and aggro matchups. The Delver decks already seem like good MU's, so I think you'd just board in your third Deed. I agree with you though that Kiora might be decent against something like Cloudpost, which takes several turns to set up.

I would run the Needle over Nihil Spellbomb simply because the deck already plays 4 Deathrite and a Scavenging Ooze, so the effect on Nihil Spellbomb is not adding much new. Pithing Needle is a completely unique effect, even if it is dead against some decks. I'm not even sure I'd want Nihil Spellbomb in the board. Anyway I'd probably just stick with those two since I can't actually think of another card we'd want (one of the reasons I'm not super excited about the trinket mage idea).

The ability to get to 4 colors for engineered explosives with deathrites to blow up 4 mana planeswalkers is definitely sweet and something I hadn't considered.

I also agree with not boarding in Kiora (or any planeswalker) against RUG if you're playing BUG Pod. Pod is your planeswalker, and I sometimes even board one of those out for tempo reasons.

[DireLemming]

I would run the Needle over Nihil Spellbomb simply because the deck already plays 4 Deathrite and a Scavenging Ooze, so the effect on Nihil Spellbomb is not adding much new. Pithing Needle is a completely unique effect, even if it is dead against some decks. I'm not even sure I'd want Nihil Spellbomb in the board. Anyway I'd probably just stick with those two since I can't actually think of another card we'd want (one of the reasons I'm not super excited about the trinket mage idea).
I'm trying Top (alongside EE and Needle). Not stellar, but good (re)building board presence.

[MD.Ghost]

@Arianrhod: I also loved Slaughter Games in every red-Build (Punishing, Scape) i played. Such a good and unique card, which can also act as a graveyard hate if you can ramp fast enough.

@GtF: As i said, Needle is an unexpected maindeck weapon which works good enough against some troublesome permanents (Top, Jace, Sneak Attack, Thespian Stage etc.). Be prepared to get some "Judge Calls". :wink: .

I play: 1 Needle + 1 EE Main and 1 Tormod's Crypt at Side

With Deathrite and Ooze you have some Maindeck GY Hate - BUT sometimes Deathrite is too slow or eats Daze etc. so Nihil Spellbomb would suffer the same way (also Spell Pierce). Tormod's Crypt matters in terms of speed. Against no "tax counters" you also need fast turns against GY Decks (which should be much faster than Nic Fit). If you need Pod or Trinket Mage you used your mana and hold Nihil Spellbomb in hand...

For other "Trinket"Slots i never found enough space.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, I have processed information and now have 2 possible builds to present for consideration.

I'll do the older build first.

As many of you are aware, I take inspiration from a wide range of sources. Lately I've been thinking a lot about modern, with the upcoming GP Worcester at the end of July. It's not that I'm unhappy with Pod, necessarily, but I think that I can find something to do in that format which is a little more....unexpected. In these explorations, I've become quite enamored with Cryptic Command. The card does literally everything, and if you can manage to combine it with Eternal Witness, you can basically lock your opponent out with very little room for counterplay. These are also both cards which are very solid on their own (not playing bad cards just to combo with), and they become live once you hit 7 mana, which is pretty easy for Nic Fit.

I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I couldn't come up with a shell to stick it in. All of the talk about McDarby's planeswalker control version made me scratch my head and wonder if that was maybe what I had been missing.

With that in mind, here's Cryptic BUG:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Cranial Extraction

Disclaimer: sideboard is basically diarrhea. It's a rough sketch, not tuned at all -- don't take my sideboard as gospel!

This deck has a couple of different angles. Aetherling is still unkillable, regardless of format. We'll be able to land and protect him in a long game. The plaenswalker suite is diverse and allows for a lot of mutiple-array pressure. They can all protect each other, and while Garruk and Karn are really the only two who can actually go aggressive, Jace and Kiora ults are both real threats in this deck. The aforementioned Cryptic/Witness lock is present, and we also have a pair of Tar Pits to edge out planeswalker wars and to serve as a backup wincon in a pinch.

Our blue count is massive. We have 20 maindeck blue cards, which makes Force of Will quite excellent -- Veteran will ramp us into hardcasting them, but we can still take advantage of them earlygame if need be. Decays and Deeds are the industry standard for bug-nic-fit removal. Shriekmaw gives an extra removal option in which can flex as another evasive creature to win with.

I'm not usually a fan of Brainstorm in Nic Fit, but the high Eternal Witness count for this deck means we need something generically good to get back in situations where we don't have anything better to do, and Brainstorm fills that niche.

The Baleful Strixes are essentially your backup ramp engine -- they buy a stupid amount of time because people are completely unwilling to attack into it. It doesn't actually ramp, unfortunately, but there wasn't really room for anything else...so....meh.

The sideboard provides extra spot removal and another sweeper. Finks and Thrag help shore up fast aggro / burn decks, which are typically something of an issue for bug-colored decks of all varieties. Cranial is industry standard nic fit sideboard material. Glen Elendra and V. Clique are good combo hate that double as clocks, with Flusterstorm and Needle rounding out our various hate options.

Again, I'll stress that this sideboard is just my best guess as to where I would start, and should not be taken as a finished product ready for SCG (or other big events).

------------------------------

The other deck is a product of my fevered imagination as a result of my discourse this morning on Drew Levin's article.

I (somewhat) proudly present,

Whine and Spirits:

1 Kami of False Hope
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Bloodghast
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Elder Pine of Jukai
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix

2 Academy Rector
1 Celestial Kirin
1 Infernal Kirin
1 Captain Sisay

1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Thragtusk

1 Iname, Death Aspect
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Time of Need
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

1 Debtors' Knell
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp

::sb::
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nether Void
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Batterskull
2 Carpet of Flowers


I'm playing this deck the next time I play legacy. I might tune it a bit between now and then, but by god it's happening.

Where to even start.

This thing is such a heaping pile of synergy that it's hard to know where to begin.

Alright, well, as stated earlier, Iname/Death is a very, very powerful effect. The results of my gatherer search revealed Karador and the B/W Kirins as additional ludicrously powerful unused effects, so I knew that I wanted to involve those.

I went down the list again and identified the best spirits at each CMC with an eye towards the Kirins. This gave me Kami@1, Bloodghast@2, Elder Pine@3, the Kirins themselves@4, Kagemaro@5, and then Iname and Yosei@6...and I guess technically Karador@7 for if I need to kill an Elesh Norn or something.

It's important to note that the Kirins only trigger when a spirit is cast, not when it comes into play, which is sad for Green Sun. However, it still works fine with Karador.

Let's just go down the line.

Kami of False Hope forms a combat-lock when renimated/recast via Karador.

Bloodghast is, sadly, the best 2-drop spirit in GBW. It's still uncomfortably low-impact in mind, and the fact that it can't block has me a little unhappy. That said, its synergy with Elder Pine, Therapy, and Iname is considerable. It's also a steady stream of Nightmare fodder, which can be relevant.

Elder Pine is a sort of engine card at the 3-spot. It yields a steady stream of lands to keep Bloodghast and Courser happy, and it powers through our deck with Top. Soulshift 2 isn't really that great, unfortunately -- it rebuys Kami and Bloodghast if you need to, but that's definitely not being taken advantage of quite as much as I would have liked. I'm a big fan of Courser, as most of you know -- hitting land drops, gaining Time, and getting subtle longterm card advantage are all things that I like doing. It's also an enchantment for Rector, which deepens the package a bit.

Celestial and Infernal Kirins are two of the primary engines of the deck, with hideously strong abilities that are only really limited by the Kamigawa card pool. Even if you don't plan on giving this version a spin, I would advocate picking up copies of these two and sandbagging them -- WotC is going to continue to print powerful Spirit-type creatures in the future, and at some point I expect these two to become Things.

Sisay does everything. She basically has Tap: Demonic Tutor in this deck. She can find the Kirins for engines, Kagemaro for sweep, Iname or Karador for card advantage, or Yosei to just win (if you have setup). She can also find Karakas and Phyrexian Tower.

Kagemaro can be both a powerful beatstick and a powerful sweeper, depending on how you need him to be. Elder Pine helps keep our hand full, as does Sisay.

Iname is a huge source of card advantage, since it can entomb a lot of creatures with powerful effects (or just get Kami of False Hope out of deck so we don't draw it if we don't want to). Iname going off -should- be all we need to lock up most games vs fair decks, because shortly after Iname populates our graveyard with options, Karador should proceed to get us exactly what we want every turn thereafter.

Time of Need is a toss-up with Diabolic Intent. Bloodghast helps Intent out, but I have been shafted in the past by not having enough creatures for Intent....in Pod versions with like 8 noncreature spells.

Green Sun has a few neat tricks in this deck. Notably, you can Zenith@4 for Sisay, then tap her the next turn for Iname and cast it, following up with a 3-drop Karador the following turn + anything you want from your graveyard.

The 4-piece removal suite helps take out Deathrites, while providing good general-purpose removal for anything else that's being obnoxious. The differentials between the types of removal should make Eternal Witness a bit better, especially when you can be Witnessing every turn thanks to Karador.

Debtors' Knell should likely be something else, but I got sick of hurting my head and said fuck it, placeholder.

Karakas is general utility, but is also abusive in this deck with the Kirins, both of which, along with Kagemaro, Iname, Yosei, and Karador, are all legendary. This allows for spiritfall to be triggered repeatedly without recursion.

Sideboard is fairly stock, with most of the usual suspects. Variety of combo hate, Batterskulls, Carpets, etc. Jitte is a sweet one to run because Sisay can tutor for it. Nothing really more to say there.

Things on my revision list to consider:

Starved Rusalka is a spirit, and is a sac outlet. Both of those things play well with the deck. Possibly better than Kami of False Hope.

I'd like a better 2-drop spirit, but I don't think I'm going to get it. The only thing I've found that's 'better' is Sustaining Spirit, which is infinitely troll. I've considered and dismissed Spirit of the Labyrinth because I personally draw off my Top 2-3 times a game on average, and usually the lines of play I adopt involve using Top that way. Turning off my own Top doesn't seem like it will help me win games. I'll probably test it anyway just in case I'm wrong, though.

I'd like more soulshift. I'm not sure that there is actually anything with soulshift that's any good, but I need to look and be sure, because something with soulshift 4, for example, seems like it could be very strong.

I'd like another recursion engine that benefits spiritfall aside from Karador. This probably occupies the Debtors' Knell slot, but I Haven't done any research into what this should be.

He Who Hungers is a consideration that I would like to make room for -- not sure where I'd put it, though.

--------------

So yeah. There's some thoughts. If you have any suggestions, comments, questions, etc -- as always, feel free to bring them up.

[pfiremc13]

Natural affinity is a very interesting card.

By itself, it can randomly take a game or two or kill some undefended walkers. More importantly, though:

Natural affinity + Pernicious deed: Blow up everything but the walkers. Imagine that with a kiora on the field. Or any walker that makes tokens... Or veteran explorer...

Natural affinity + Massacre wurm: gg lol (note that podding into massacre wurm is pretty much necessary)

Seems situational, but it could be in a cunning wishboard. I don't know what good wish targets in those colors are though...

[Megadeus]

Natural affinity + Massacre wurm: gg lol (note that podding into massacre wurm is pretty much necessary)

Seems situational, but it could be in a cunning wishboard. I don't know what good wish targets in those colors are though...

I... Really. REALLY want to see this happen.

[johnnyboytators]

Working on a deck, I would appreciate constructive feedback I know the fetches aren’t correct but its what I have right now for the deck. Any suggestions on a 15 c SB would be great. Thanks :P

Aluren Fit
Land
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 taiga
2 bayou
1 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 Windswept heath
3 forest
2 Island
2 swamp
23

Spells
2 diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 lim-dul’s vault
3 green sun’s zenith
4 aluren
1 sensei’s divining top
18

Creatures
4 imperial recruiter
4 Veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 birds of paradice
1 eternal witness
1 coiling oracle
2 dream stalker
2 cavern harpy
1 parasitic strix
19

[Razorwynd]

Working on a deck, I would appreciate constructive feedback I know the fetches aren’t correct but its what I have right now for the deck. Any suggestions on a 15 c SB would be great. Thanks :P

Aluren Fit
Land
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 taiga
2 bayou
1 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 Windswept heath
3 forest
2 Island
2 swamp
23

Spells
2 diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 lim-dul’s vault
3 green sun’s zenith
4 aluren
1 sensei’s divining top
18

Creatures
4 imperial recruiter
4 Veteran explorer
3 deathrite shaman
1 birds of paradice
1 eternal witness
1 coiling oracle
2 dream stalker
2 cavern harpy
1 parasitic strix
19

IMO it would probably be better to get people playing Aluren to comment on that list... you are just playing Aluren + explorer, not really Nic-Fit + Aluren....

[Ralf]

Alright, I have processed information and now have 2 possible builds to present for consideration.

I'll do the older build first.

As many of you are aware, I take inspiration from a wide range of sources. Lately I've been thinking a lot about modern, with the upcoming GP Worcester at the end of July. It's not that I'm unhappy with Pod, necessarily, but I think that I can find something to do in that format which is a little more....unexpected. In these explorations, I've become quite enamored with Cryptic Command. The card does literally everything, and if you can manage to combine it with Eternal Witness, you can basically lock your opponent out with very little room for counterplay. These are also both cards which are very solid on their own (not playing bad cards just to combo with), and they become live once you hit 7 mana, which is pretty easy for Nic Fit.

I've been thinking about this for a while now, but I couldn't come up with a shell to stick it in. All of the talk about McDarby's planeswalker control version made me scratch my head and wonder if that was maybe what I had been missing.

With that in mind, here's Cryptic BUG:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Cranial Extraction

Disclaimer: sideboard is basically diarrhea. It's a rough sketch, not tuned at all -- don't take my sideboard as gospel!

This deck has a couple of different angles. Aetherling is still unkillable, regardless of format. We'll be able to land and protect him in a long game. The plaenswalker suite is diverse and allows for a lot of mutiple-array pressure. They can all protect each other, and while Garruk and Karn are really the only two who can actually go aggressive, Jace and Kiora ults are both real threats in this deck. The aforementioned Cryptic/Witness lock is present, and we also have a pair of Tar Pits to edge out planeswalker wars and to serve as a backup wincon in a pinch.

Our blue count is massive. We have 20 maindeck blue cards, which makes Force of Will quite excellent -- Veteran will ramp us into hardcasting them, but we can still take advantage of them earlygame if need be. Decays and Deeds are the industry standard for bug-nic-fit removal. Shriekmaw gives an extra removal option in which can flex as another evasive creature to win with.

I'm not usually a fan of Brainstorm in Nic Fit, but the high Eternal Witness count for this deck means we need something generically good to get back in situations where we don't have anything better to do, and Brainstorm fills that niche.

The Baleful Strixes are essentially your backup ramp engine -- they buy a stupid amount of time because people are completely unwilling to attack into it. It doesn't actually ramp, unfortunately, but there wasn't really room for anything else...so....meh.

The sideboard provides extra spot removal and another sweeper. Finks and Thrag help shore up fast aggro / burn decks, which are typically something of an issue for bug-colored decks of all varieties. Cranial is industry standard nic fit sideboard material. Glen Elendra and V. Clique are good combo hate that double as clocks, with Flusterstorm and Needle rounding out our various hate options.

Again, I'll stress that this sideboard is just my best guess as to where I would start, and should not be taken as a finished product ready for SCG (or other big events).


I'm afraid you are pushing the curve and the need for colored lands too much with this version.
To smooth things out, I'll probably remove GPH and Aetherling/Karn for 2 Top.
=>3 forest seems to be a lot when CC demands 3 blue.

Don't get me wrong, I like them, really, but without Green Sun, I can guarantee you that playing a land every turn/ramping will be far harder than in a more traditional list.

Furthermore, even if I like "Creeping Tar pit", I would not play it. The "EtB tapped" is too much of a big deal in Nic Fit. They will cost you more games than the contrary. I know they are quite nice for dealing with opponent's walker but you should already have an edge against them with FOW, CT & CC

I like what you are trying to do with CC & Eternal Witness but this little "combo" might be "too cute" in the end. I'll definitely test it.

As for the SB, same advise you gave me a couple of days ago !!!

1 Abrupt decay
2 Golgari charm -> Better than Toxic
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swan song -> better than flusterstorm in most cases (nonbo with veteran)
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Batterskull

I know you were busy since a couple of months so I'll copy/paste below my BUG walker list to give you some idea.
I spent 2 months tweaking/tinkering it to get good results (sanctioned events speaking):

MAIN DECK:

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical island
2 Bayou
1 Underground sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Polluted delta

1 Eternal witness
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Veteran explorer
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Wall of blossom
2 Baleful Strix

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Vraska, the Unseen

2 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

4 Brainstorm
3 Negate
4 Cabal therapy
2 Green sun's zenith
3 Abrupt decay

SB

1 Engineered explosives
2 Golgari charm
1 Viridian zealot
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Pithing needle
2 Swan song
2 Surgical extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize

I know you like playing 61 cards so was I. You could consider Thragtusk as the 61th card (along with Scavenging ooze as a beater)

1) I would like to remind readers that Jace + Eternal witness is a soft synergy that did win me quite a good amount of games. Same goes for your version
2) BUG walkers is soft to punishing fire. Period. Ooze is our only chance. You should test your version with CC and tell us how it goes against JUND (for example)
3) Don't scorn at "wall of blossom". It is Baleful n°3 and can be GSZed. Doesn't die to bolt/punish (in some extend) and can block & protect you or your walker from Thalia, Gooze, SCM, Bob, BBE etc... Since its addition % win rate has rocketed up.
4) I will test Kiora on my side (instead of Liliana), add FOW instead of negate to see how it goes.

Thx Arian, as usual you gave me a lot for thoughts and I really appreciate that !

[Arianrhod]

@Ralf -- GPH and Karn might be a little greedy, but I usually err on the side of flood vs the side of screw. I'll probably test it first and then see how it plays before making a judgment call on them.

Valid point on the Tar Pits. I'd probably keep a misers, but 2 is probably too much.

I don't think Cryptic Witness is anywhere near cute territory...it actually seems pretty savage. Obviously testing etc

I actually purposefully chose Deluge over Charm for this version, because I want another answer to a Teeg...preferably one that gets around Mother of Runes. With all of the planeswalkers, the Forces, and the Cryptics, this version is very, very weak to Teeg, and I want to have something extra postboard to help shore that up.

Swan Song vs Fluster is, I think, determined by the type of combo that you're trying to beat. Swan Song is better against slower combo decks like Sneak and Show, where the range of counterables matters more than the 2/2. Additionally, as you note, Flusterstorm is kind of a nonbo thanks to our own Veterans. However, those two slots are more for Storm than the slower decks -- I'm not worried about slower combo as much because that will give time for GEAs, Cryptics, and hardcast FoWs to come into play, as well as the Cranial. Storm doesn't typically run basics (well, TES and Belcher don't, which is what I'm really worried about since ANT tends to be slower). Additionally, they're a Therapy deck as well, so giving them a 2/2 can enable them to flashback their Therapy and strip more answers from our hand.

I also just realized that I copypasted a slightly older list -- I was talking about Shriekmaw, but it never actually made it into the post. With that in mind + Ralf's comments, here's v1.2 of Cryptic BUG:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

::sb::
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Cranial Extraction

Regarding Batterskull, if it were to go anywhere, it would go over the Thragtusk or one of the Finks. The issue there is that those cards are intended for the Burn/Zoo/etc matchup, and I -think- that the frontloaded lifegain is worth more than threat of repeatable lifegain over a non-immediate duration.

If I were to squeeze Tops in, I would probably go -1 GPH, -1 Brainstorm for 2 Top -- I've always rather liked the 3 Brainstorm/2 Top split, but I want more things for Witness to do early game, which is why I opted for the full grip of Brainstorms over any Tops.

The most realistic possible future changes would be -1 GPH +1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Forest +1 Tropical Island. Like I said earlier, though, I would test GPH first and then scale back if he proved to be an issue, since he's ostensibly a much more powerful card than wolfblossom is.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

So I'm finally expanding my horizons and dropping BUG fit for Junk Fit.

Why? Because Cap'n Sisay is good alongside Primeval Titan for getting legendary lands to the field/hand: which means I don't have to choose between Karakas or Tabernacle or Stronghold+Tower ^_^.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Captain Sisay
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas

Open to suggestions for the sideboard ^_^

[jbone2016]

So...council's judgement anyone?

[jobdevries]

So I'm finally expanding my horizons and dropping BUG fit for Junk Fit.

Why? Because Cap'n Sisay is good alongside Primeval Titan for getting legendary lands to the field/hand: which means I don't have to choose between Karakas or Tabernacle or Stronghold+Tower ^_^.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Captain Sisay
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas

Open to suggestions for the sideboard ^_^


I might be overlooking something, but isn't a knight of the reliquary just as good/even better than captain sisay, if you are only going to search lands with it?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I might be overlooking something, but isn't a knight of the reliquary just as good/even better than captain sisay, if you are only going to search lands with it?

Hmm ... never thought about it to be honest. Still, I like the potential Cap'n has, particularly as a Thrun Tutor (seriously, this one card is making me consider running Thrun again, even over Sigarda). Maybe a triple threat of Prime Time + Cap'n + Knight could work?

EDIT:


So...council's judgement anyone?

Just googled it: to be honest it seems like a worse Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate, even with the boons of exiling over destroying AND the ability to get around targetting prevention. The reason I say this is because, if I'm reading this correctly, the opponent can just choose the same permanent you choose (since it specifies 'you' and not 'that player') and that's the end of that. 1 for 1 removal.

[eq.firemind]

Just googled it: to be honest it seems like a worse Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate, even with the boons of exiling over destroying AND the ability to get around targetting prevention. The reason I say this is because, if I'm reading this correctly, the opponent can just choose the same permanent you choose (since it specifies 'you' and not 'that player') and that's the end of that. 1 for 1 removal.
Unlike Pulse/Vindicate, council's judgement deals with True-Name Nemesis.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Unlike Pulse/Vindicate, council's judgement deals with True-Name Nemesis.

Do we (Nic Fit) really fear TNN enough to run a Pulse/Vindicate that can hit TNN? I mean we run Deed, have the potential to run Deluge, G.Charm, Damnation, and various others to get rid of it, and unlike all of those, using Judgement on TNN cannot be used to simultaneous get rid of other threats or to set off idle Veteran Explorers (which can't block the TNN anyway).

[Qweerios]

Harmonic Sliver just lost his appeal with the new Reclamation Sage coming out:

2/3 Elf Shaman with CiP: Destroy target Artifact or Enchantment.

A much anticipated card for any non-white Pod list.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Harmonic Sliver just lost his appeal with the new Reclamation Sage coming out:

2/3 Elf Shaman with CiP: Destroy target Artifact or Enchantment.

A much anticipated card for any non-white Pod list.
The image on mythicspoiler has it as a may ability as well.

I was kinda hoping they'd do a may-template version after a grindy game where I had a pod and no other creature on board and drew the sliver with nothing else to target.

[Woe_Bringer]

Hello fellow Nic Fitters. I have been out of the loop for about 6 months and was wondering if i could get some links/posts of current lists of Pod Fit and Junk fit or any other for that matter..I know Punishing fit used to be decent but like i said ive been out of the loop. Thank you for any and all feedback.

[tadiou]

The image on mythicspoiler has it as a may ability as well.

I was kinda hoping they'd do a may-template version after a grindy game where I had a pod and no other creature on board and drew the sliver with nothing else to target.

Everyone's been in that situation once before.

It's a 2/1, not a 2/3 though.

[MrShine]

Hey guys! Been following the thread now for a while, you're all doing some good work here. Arianrhod, I especially like the innovations you're working on lately. Keep it up!

As for me, I finally put together BUG Pod, and it looks like this:


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
- 22 Lands -

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thragtusk
- 18 Creatures -

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
- 20 Spells -


The Sideboard is still way up in the air; still unsure how to address the combo MUs.

As for initial impression, JTMS is totally sick - he is the perfect swiss army knife for the deck IMO. Depending on how Garruk fares I might just want to up him to 3 copies.

Is there a consensus on the number of Lands we should be running? I feel like as long as Deed is in the deck I always want to be hitting my land drops. Might be a bit prone to flood, but Explorer does a good job of pulling your basics out anyway.

Things I'm unsure of:

Deciever Exarch - having some trouble finding a decent 3 drop for the chain, figured the ability to bounce right up to cmc4 with Pod adds a lot of value. Still, Finks might be better here, but there isn't a lot of aggro in my meta and frankly we should crush aggro anyway.

Entomber Exarch - Seems really good, actually, surprised no one is trying him out yet. Tons of value + flexibility vs control, and some playability v combo if you live that long :P Requires further testing to be sure, but I like that its a 4 drop with with a ETB ability that I can be happy podding away right after.

I feel like I want another 5 drop of some kind; possibly even just another Thragtusk. Acidic Slime is looking good though, and could probably take the place of the Wickerbough Elder. I like that you can run out the elder ahead of them getting Batterskull or whatever down and threatening instant-speed removal while delivering pressure. Ofc, I could just run both in this crazy Equipment meta...

And then, there's Grave Titan. He's not in my list atm as I haven't found the one I thought I had, but I'm honestly unsure whether he actually NEEDS to be there. Most of the time I'd be happy enough with a Tusk in a race, and there are few situations when we'll be able to pod into him. That being said, he is a Big Mean Zombie Machine.

Thoughts? Recommendations?

[gigapatrick]

@MrShine

Just a couple of points of constructive criticism:

Your list seems very light at the three-drop slot, which means your Pod chains might fizzle more frequently. You can probably drop a land for something like Kitchen Finks, since Persist is awesome with Pod and because I think most lists have only been running 21 lands.

At the four drop slot, I'd lose Entomber Exarch for Murderous Redcap. Again, Persist is awesome and because you can kill a creature or do damage to a Planeswalker with it, you probably want to be able chain into it.

On Grave Titan: I don't think Thragtusk is big enough to be at the peak of your Pod chain. Grave Titan is huge and can bring you back from a losing position. It's also very, very important against swarm decks like Goblins.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[Arianrhod]

The land counts for Nic Fit versions is really interesting to consider.

21:
Pod versions -- 4 DRS + 4 Veteran + relatively low mana requirements comparatively speaking (Pod does much of the heavy lifting as opposed to 'casting' things.

22:
GBW versions -- 4 Veteran + 2 Sakura-Tribe is fairly stock for most pseudo Rector/Thune/rock/whatever decks

23:
Punishing Fire versions -- I think? PFire likes having a lot of lands because it lets you PFire more often, and they usually run a lot of utility lands.
Jace Control / Superfriends versions -- also I think, not certain. Land drops for planeswalkers, plus they usually run Brainstorm to shuffle away extra copies of resolved walkers.

24:
Scapewish -- 4 Veteran + 2 Sakura-Tribe + 2 Wood Elves -- primary wincon is based around having 7-8 lands in play, plus manabase has stringent requirements between Vet and Valakut.

Just an interesting observation in that the number of lands you're running in Nic Fit varies tremendously based on what you're trying to do.

[MrShine]

@MrShine

Just a couple of points of constructive criticism:

Your list seems very light at the three-drop slot, which means your Pod chains might fizzle more frequently. You can probably drop a land for something like Kitchen Finks, since Persist is awesome with Pod and because I think most lists have only been running 21 lands.

At the four drop slot, I'd lose Entomber Exarch for Murderous Redcap. Again, Persist is awesome and because you can kill a creature or do damage to a Planeswalker with it, you probably want to be able chain into it.

On Grave Titan: I don't think Thragtusk is big enough to be at the peak of your Pod chain. Grave Titan is huge and can bring you back from a losing position. It's also very, very important against swarm decks like Goblins.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Yeah, I was a little worried about the 3 drops. cutting a land for one was my first instinct, I kinda just threw it together without checking to see what the consensus was on how many land to run. Finks will be a placeholder for the moment.

I'm going to keep testing Entomber Exarch; I think it has versatility but Redcap may just be better to off a SFM or Jace or what have you.

Do you guys feel like 19 creatures is too few? Somehow it worries me a bit. Generally it just seems like there's just too much to fit into the deck :P

@ Arianhod - I think the land count discussion is an interesting one. I'm running 3x Deed for now (very good in my meta) and I definitely want to be getting enough land to play + crack in one turn, and hopefully even enough to play around soft counters too. More testing!

[GtF]

Yeah, I was a little worried about the 3 drops. cutting a land for one was my first instinct, I kinda just threw it together without checking to see what the consensus was on how many land to run. Finks will be a placeholder for the moment.

I'm going to keep testing Entomber Exarch; I think it has versatility but Redcap may just be better to off a SFM or Jace or what have you.

Do you guys feel like 19 creatures is too few? Somehow it worries me a bit. Generally it just seems like there's just too much to fit into the deck :P

@ Arianhod - I think the land count discussion is an interesting one. I'm running 3x Deed for now (very good in my meta) and I definitely want to be getting enough land to play + crack in one turn, and hopefully even enough to play around soft counters too. More testing!

I'd recommend 22 lands and at least 20 creatures in a pod list. I've never tried it with less than 22 (and a green sun's zenith so 23 really). The 3 slot is definitely the weak point in the chain, but I've found finks to be satisfactory. For 5 drops, I've liked Shriekmaw because of the capacity for it to be evoked early.
Jace is a good card and has a lot of synergy with your own creatures, since you can bounce them and get their enter the battlefield triggers again. But it is hard to find space for all the creatures I think are needed for Pod to function if the space is occupied by other cards. There's a tension - the spells are much more powerful individually, but you need the synergy of the creatures for the deck to fully function as a pod deck.

[Hasselbalch]

Hey, I've been running Punishing Jund on MTGO to some decent sucess, but there are some things I'd like to change but I'm not sure what

The list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm

I would like to find room for another abrupt decay in the mainboard. I also find that my GSZ aren't very good early if I don't want a veteran explorer. I have been having problems with shardless bug and esper stoneblade, mainly with Jace. I usually don't bring in all 4 ReBs since it doesn't have that many targets, is that a mistake or is there some other cards I could have to help those matchups.

[Arianrhod]

You know, eventually WotC is going to print an Acidic Slime variant that can kill planeswalkers (noncreature permanent?) and all of our Jace problems will disappear overnight.

Keep in mind that I'm not a Punishing player, but I can still give some general thoughts.

I don't like the miser's Thoughtseize. I think that would be better served as your 3rd Decay that you wanted. I also don't like the 4th Top. I see Top plenty / too much as a 3-of, and I think that as a 4-of you're just going to be drowning in Tops. I would probably bump that into the 4th Punishing Fire, which should help a little with your Jace problem.

Punishing Fit is a very, very controlling version -- your early Green Suns are always going to be kind of ass in that build. Green Sun is basically how you find your finisher, with a few toolbox utility options along the way. Don't go into it with the mindset of "I'm Maverick, I have every GSZ option ever invented." You'll just be disappointed. Generally speaking you want 1-2 Explorers in the early game, and then beyond that just hold your Zeniths for higher-impact cards at choice moments when you have control of the game. Don't feel compelled to use GSZ as soon as you draw it.

-------------

So, I was trolling around on Gatherer the other day, and I found an interesting card: Crack the Earth. I'm not sure that it's necessarily WORTH the exploration, but I remember around two years ago there was a chain of discussion about a Naya Explorer build that used Punishing Fire to simulate Cabal Therapy. Crack the Earth seems like a much better option for this -- it opens up RUG and Naya as potential Nic Fit combinations.

My thoughts immediately went to two specific cards with two different build paths in mind: Animar, Soul of Elements and Riku of Two Reflections. Animar's protections are absolutely laughably good in legacy (pro Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay? fuck yea), and anyone who's played with or against an EDH deck with either Animar or Riku as a general knows the bullshit that those two cards are capable of.

I don't have any lists in mind at this point, but it's definitely something that's worth considering. Yes, Therapy with Explorer is backbreaking -- but really, how many decks are going to be happy with t1 Explorer -> t2 Crack -- especially if they don't run basics. Likely either eats their 1-drop creature or their land...either way it's a beating.

[HoneyT]

Hello all! I'm baaaack!

Unfortunately haven't had much chance to post in here in recent months. Life has been happening. But here I am!

Hasselbalch I'm very surprised that those matchups are giving you a hard time as those are traditionally very good matchups especially for the p-fire version. The fires do tons of work in those matchups especially in keeping Jace in check. If those are problematic for you, then play the 4th p-fire. The 3rd decay will definitely help you out with shardless too since goyf is literally the only card that should matter. I would cut the singleton thoughtseize and 4th top for those changes in your list.

[tadiou]

I'd recommend 22 lands and at least 20 creatures in a pod list. I've never tried it with less than 22 (and a green sun's zenith so 23 really). The 3 slot is definitely the weak point in the chain, but I've found finks to be satisfactory. For 5 drops, I've liked Shriekmaw because of the capacity for it to be evoked early.
Jace is a good card and has a lot of synergy with your own creatures, since you can bounce them and get their enter the battlefield triggers again. But it is hard to find space for all the creatures I think are needed for Pod to function if the space is occupied by other cards. There's a tension - the spells are much more powerful individually, but you need the synergy of the creatures for the deck to fully function as a pod deck.

22 is like just the edge where I'd want to be. I often think about making a cut of a creature to get to the 22nd land, but feel marginally comfortable with 21 lands. It's definitely a "how aggressively to you want to find lands" sort of deck at that point and time, because you are indeed playing less Veteran Explorers, but, it gives you better draws late in the game. I cut the 4th Explorer a while ago because I felt the 4th DRS was better, and I actually am pretty sure on that one. Clogged up with 1 drops isn't necessarily great, even with Pod out, because while your best card in a lot of situations is Baleful Strix, those times you don't have an active pod, they're rarely good. It's where the GSZ makes sense, but you also want to naturally draw your DRS and VE's early, and reducing their count on the order of GSZ doesn't do the trick.

Reiterating the 3 drop spot, it's definitely the hardest to find good cards to put it. Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, Thassa, Pestermite, Trinket Mage, Man-o-war, Uktabi Orangutan, Edric Spymaster, Bone Shredder/Fleshbag Marauder and Wood Elves are pretty much the only decent pieces to the puzzle.

[Hasselbalch]

I don't think the 4th top is cuttable. Games that you have a top on turn 1 are so much easier to win than when you don't. And I generally don't have an issue shuffling away extra tops. I would rather have 2-3 tops in my opening hand than 0.

[Krimson Viper]

Hey all, I've been interested in Nic Fit for awhile and I think I want to go Junk colors(not set on this, however), but I'm not seeing any recent lists. Instead I'm seeing BUG colors. I have the lands for non blue versions, but I don't want to proceed any further if the non blue versions aren't viable any more. What color combinations should I play? My meta has all the Delver variants, Shardless, Reanimator(I don't think this is fixable, no matter the colors), D&T, Elves, Goblins, Miracles, and Jund.

[Ish]

Hey all, I've been interested in Nic Fit for awhile and I think I want to go Junk colors(not set on this, however), but I'm not seeing any recent lists. Instead I'm seeing BUG colors. I have the lands for non blue versions, but I don't want to proceed any further if the non blue versions aren't viable any more. What color combinations should I play? My meta has all the Delver variants, Shardless, Reanimator(I don't think this is fixable, no matter the colors), D&T, Elves, Goblins, Miracles, and Jund.

I don't think its a viability issue. I am playing BUG pod right now, but have also played the scapewish variant.

Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and play style to suit preference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Krimson Viper]

I don't think its a viability issue. I am playing BUG pod right now, but have also played the scapewish variant.

Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and play style to suit preference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What does each color variant do? As in when you go Junk, what does it shore up while becoming weaker to? Same with Jund and straight GB?

[Arianrhod]

I'll try to come up with a rough overview tonight or tomorrow morning. To be honest, a lot of it is just preference more than anything else. And it's not so much that different versions are more or less viable as it is that the community here in this thread tends to get fixated on a [topic] and then it rides that [topic] until someone changes to a different [topic2]. We're kind of wonderfully schizo =)

[CRich3]

Hey, I've been away for a long long time :P. I am still the only one playing the rector version? lol

[Ish]

Quick comparison from my experience:

Scapewish Nic Fit: stomps any fair deck, and can win via combo quickly against stalled board states... Or just outta nowhere. Great burning wish toolbox.

BUG Pod: slight help against combo with FOW outta the board. Pod is slow... But once online it's nuts... And offers a creature toolbox. Blue gives you access to some great creatures: aetherling, sower of temptations, glen...Archmage,baleful strix, notion thief and llawan (both SB in mine)


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[MrShine]

Quick comparison from my experience:

Scapewish Nic Fit: stomps any fair deck, and can win via combo quickly against stalled board states... Or just outta nowhere. Great burning wish toolbox.

BUG Pod: slight help against combo with FOW outta the board. Pod is slow... But once online it's nuts... And offers a creature toolbox. Blue gives you access to some great creatures: aetherling, sower of temptations, glen...Archmage,baleful strix, notion thief and llawan (both SB in mine)


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More importantly, the draw of BUG being the access to Brainstorm and Jace, The Mind Sculptor. With so many 1-ofs in the deck multiple sources of card selection is ridiculously good. Jace is also an alternate wincon that some decks can't deal with effectively. And yes, better anti-combo options post-side.

--

What are all your thoughts on Snapcaster Mage? Seems good w/ Decay + Brainstorm, we don't run RIP, and it gets us extra utility out of Flusterstorms or whatever out of the board... We certainly should have enough mana to run it, anyway.

[Arianrhod]

Here's how I would catalogue each major variant:

BG -- Highest consistency of all variants by virtue of 2-color. Runs extra discard, usually in the form of Hymn, primary anti-fair plan is Primeval -> 2x Treetop Village or Primeval -> Volrath + PhyTower. Pretty light on combo hate since it stays strictly GB, but can steal games with discard + Surgical/Extirpate effects. Most likely of all variants, I'd say, to beat graveyard combo decks. Weakest overall average fair.dec matchup in my opinion -- it has a plan, but that plan is very attritiony and gives the opponent a lot of time to react to it and solve it.

Scapewish -- Crushes fair.dec, but is relatively unstable despite my best efforts and can give up match% to anything randomly. Has a 1-card combo which can enable free wins or wins out of nowhere, stealing victory from the jaws of defeat. Has access to Slaughter Games, which is arguably the best anti-combo card that Nic Fit can run, and typically runs 3 of them between main and side thanks to the extra ramp spells present in the maindeck. Can never beat graveyard combo, but is pretty strong against Show and Tell and ANT. Has a reasonable creature backup plan, and is somewhat customizable. Scape is also one of the most explored and tuned versions of Nic Fit, with thousands of dollars in winnings over two years across multiple pilots.

Punishing -- Another long-standing, well-developed version. PFire is arguably the hardest control of all of the Nic Fit family, running a host of spot removal and sweep main with complements in the sideboard to tune for specific matchups. Arguably has the strongest Elves matchup of the family. HoneyT swore by this version for vs combo decks of all varieties, but I think that it actually has somewhat of a weaker matchup vs fair.dec because it is suppppppppper grindy and slow. Like, its wincons are typically a Thrun and Punishing your face. This version fell off a bit since True-Name came out, since it can't really easily kill the critter and, as aforementioned, it struggles with killing the opponent (which is usually our backup plan to if we can't kill the TNN). That being said, it does get to play Liliana of the Veil for free courtesy of Punishing Fire, which is a significant point in its favor.

BUG Planeswalkers -- The McDarby special. This version is pretty balanced, I'd say, and is a good choice for longer tournaments where it's an unknown meta. The planeswalkers provide significant raw power, and the deck has more than enough spot removal / sacrifice effects to solve basically any creature-based wincon. It also sports a fairly significant countersuite. The danger of this version is that it's pretty linear, and doesn't really have any quality backup plans. McDarby's list runs 4 Veteran 1 Baleful Strix as the only creatures, which makes you lean on the planeswalkers super hard. Not running Thragtusk and company makes Burn significantly more dangerous, too. I would personally opt for something like my Cryptic BUG list over his planeswalker control, but that's more because, as a pilot/designer, I would rather have backup plans. This deck is probably the most 'powerful' of the BUG lists in terms of raw strength, but it lacks flex and tech.

BUG Pod -- The best-performing list on the big-scene, with 1 (2?) GP top 16 and either the same or one more SCG top 8/16s. The exact opposite of BUG Planeswalkers -- this deck is wildly nonlinear, with branching decision trees that can answer basically any situation courtesy of its extreme toolbox. The best Glen Elendra Archmage list, which is significant because that card is a beating. Overall, BUG Pod is a very promising deck, but as with any Pod list is extremely challenging to play and build/tune correctly. It can be tuned to beat almost anything, but whether or not you match up your tuning with what you actually play in an event is kind of a crapshoot.

Rector Rock -- Probably the oldest list that's still functional. GB is tied for longevity, but sees little play these days. Rector's biggest issue is that it's kind of a moneybags deck -- most of its power comes from Academy Rector and the attending toolbox, but when the attending toolbox includes things like Moat, Nether Void, and The Abyss, it's an issue for most legacy players (let alone anyone new to the format). Rector Rock runs the most spot removal of any non-PFire version, and typically runs either the Archangel of Thune / Spike Feeder combo, or just goes beatdown with Baneslayer Angels and Elspeth, Knight Errants.

Junk Pod -- The other Pod deck. This one plays a lot like Melira Pod from modern, and typically involves a lot of the same cards. Some are all-stars, like Orzhov Pontiff, while some others are meta-calls and thus can be questionable depending on your pairings on the day. Basically everything that was said about the BUG Pod deck is also applicable here, except that it has a worse combo matchup at the tradeoff of having a better fair matchup (Junk Pod gets to run Stoneforge Mystic but can't run Glen Elendra Archmage). Your combo plan basically comes down to hatebears like Thalia, Canonist, Mindcensor, et al, which unfortunately combo decks tend to be prepared for since it's a common line to attack them by. You can hybridize a Rector package into the deck, which shores up some of its combo issues, but attaches a significant money problem to the deck.

This isn't including the other, more experimental builds such as Cryptic BUG or theoreticals like Jund Pod which -should- exist but, to my knowledge, nobody has spent any time on yet. This also (obviously) doesn't include the theoretical RUG or Naya builds that are possible with Crack the Earth.

Here's the list of experimentals/theoreticals that I / others have in the oven brewing at the moment:

GB Scapeshift (Ob Nixilis)
GB turboramp (Culling the Weak)
Jund Pod (Ruric Thar and Sire of Insanity? yes pls; Olivia Voldaren & FTK)
Flat Jund (control jund with no pfire but with Rakdos Returns et al)
Cryptic BUG (eternal command styled deck with a planeswalker suite and 8 maindeck counterspells)
Deadeye BUG (this floats around on the edge of being really good...uses Deadeye Nav and ETB creatures for intense value + combos)
Spirit Junk (aka Kamigawa block constructed. Kirins are grossly powerful, Karador is a spirit and plays well with Iname, Death Aspect, etc)
Legendary Junk (Sisay / Time of Need-oriented)
RUG Animar (probably uses Food Chain / Griffin / FoW alongside Animar, eldrazi, mulldrifters, etc)
RUG Riku (might be a better Deadeye version)
Naya X (no idea where to go with this. like, what does Naya even do? I'm sure there's something, I just dunno what)
5c Pod (the best creatures from every color, multiple combos and pod chains, rainbow lands, whatever sideboard we want)

Basically different versions have differing places on the combo/fair.dec slidebar with regards to both how they function and what they can beat. The Animar RUG list is probably one of the most exciting to me, since you get two combos, a solid beatdown plan, a disgusting lategame, and a ton of disruption all built-in to the deck. I'm always looking for the 'next big thing'. Scapewish is my 'main' competitive deck, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily the best Nic Fit that could ever exist. There's always new possibilities lurking around every corner -- it's just a matter of exploring (pun intended) the archetype and finding something that works for you.

From a pure spike perspective there are different Nic Fits that could be used for different purposes, but you'll be much better served to find one that really works for you and master it, in my opinion. I've warned new players to the archetype before (and will do so again) that it takes upwards of one year to actually start seeing consistent results with Nic Fit, regardless of which version you adopt. Nic Fit is a ludicrously challenging deck to master, but it brings with it the satisfaction that you get to play stuff that nobody else does. And, to me, there's no feeling quite like having your opponent exclaim WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT and reach to read it as you slam some random cube/EDH staple on them and proceed to molest them with it.

[Ish]

More importantly, the draw of BUG being the access to Brainstorm and Jace, The Mind Sculptor. With so many 1-ofs in the deck multiple sources of card selection is ridiculously good. Jace is also an alternate wincon that some decks can't deal with effectively. And yes, better anti-combo options post-side.

--

What are all your thoughts on Snapcaster Mage? Seems good w/ Decay + Brainstorm, we don't run RIP, and it gets us extra utility out of Flusterstorms or whatever out of the board... We certainly should have enough mana to run it, anyway.

IMO: Snapcaster is situationally great, whereas Baleful Strix is always good. I prefer Baleful Strix. The flying deathtouch can also matter sometimes... I love the little owl against DnT.

[Qweerios]

My Nic Fit testing for the last year was limited to Pod variants. I basically shelved traditional Nic Fit when it stopped being a metagame deck in the RUG/Maverick era. The latest lists I have played were all BUG Pod variants. However, there lots of hiccups that confirmed my initial suspicions about this deck. I still cannot figure out why BUG is more common than Junk.

Glen Elendra is one of the best creatures I have ever played in a Pod deck hands down... but so is SFM

Just like playing Stoneblade with 3 Jace, most of my games don't involve a Pod because I only play 3 and consists of a "must-counter". As a Pod-less Pod deck, BUG is fairly weak and a Goyf will pose a serious threat while a Bob will likely go unanswered for several turns.

The more I played, the more I would try to increase my GSZ count to 2-3 and squeeze more green creatures in. The more GSZ I had, the more consistency I would get in my early turns, and consequently, the more I wished the top of my curve was green.

Strix forces shaky manabases early on as blue and black on T2 requires more dual lands and leads to unnecessary blowouts. Strix never stopped any Delver from swinging at me because he is the only thing that would stand between a T1 Delver and my life total, therefore he was always countered or removed.

I never reached Grave Titan in a timely fashion in any competitive game against any of the top tier decks, not even once... The only times I would reach him were when the game was already over (AKA: climbing a Pod chain).

I lost most of the matches I played against good players piloting good decks. Most of my losses were due to a vulnerable manabase, impossible mana costs, being unable to Brainstorm early without a Dual land, not having an answer to Bob, having my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards, or simply having all my key cards countered. Unless you side in 12+ high impact cards against combo, Pod has too much dead weight in the main to consistently beat combo decks.

[Ish]

My Nic Fit testing for the last year was limited to Pod variants. I basically shelved traditional Nic Fit when it stopped being a metagame deck in the RUG/Maverick era. The latest lists I have played were all BUG Pod variants. However, there lots of hiccups that confirmed my initial suspicions about this deck. I still cannot figure out why BUG is more common than Junk.

Glen Elendra is one of the best creatures I have ever played in a Pod deck hands down... but so is SFM

Just like playing Stoneblade with 3 Jace, most of my games don't involve a Pod because I only play 3 and consists of a "must-counter". As a Pod-less Pod deck, BUG is fairly weak and a Goyf will pose a serious threat while a Bob will likely go unanswered for several turns.

The more I played, the more I would try to increase my GSZ count to 2-3 and squeeze more green creatures in. The more GSZ I had, the more consistency I would get in my early turns, and consequently, the more I wished the top of my curve was green.

Strix forces shaky manabases early on as blue and black on T2 requires more dual lands and leads to unnecessary blowouts. Strix never stopped any Delver from swinging at me because he is the only thing that would stand between a T1 Delver and my life total, therefore he was always countered or removed.

I never reached Grave Titan in a timely fashion in any competitive game against any of the top tier decks, not even once... The only times I would reach him were when the game was already over (AKA: climbing a Pod chain).

I lost most of the matches I played against good players piloting good decks. Most of my losses were due to a vulnerable manabase, impossible mana costs, being unable to Brainstorm early without a Dual land, not having an answer to Bob, having my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards, or simply having all my key cards countered. Unless you side in 12+ high impact cards against combo, Pod has too much dead weight in the main to consistently beat combo decks.

Though I disagree with how harsh you are on the BUG pod variant... I DO agree that every specific weakness that you have stated is real.


Per delver decks: In my list I still play 3 abrupt decay, and 2 deed... so answering goyf/delver/TNN and those variants are quite easy.

Shaky manabase: Like with ANY brainstorm deck, fixing shaky manabases, and finding pod are easier. I also play 0 GSZ as it sucks in BUG pod.

POD is slow and vunerable: But, closing out games with Pod against decks like Miracles is a thing. Being able to find that Thrun/Aetherling is huge in a long game.

I am curious to test a Junk build... I have yet to try out that version. Is there a "best" stock list that we should be starting from.

[firebadmattgood]

You don't like strix against delver because it's an immediate, must answer problem for them? What?

I don't understand why you're bringing up delver as an issue, to be honest. Mull to a hand that will get you out of the early game, then top deck one of the 15 cards that crush delver or one of the 9 cards that can find them.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

You don't like strix against delver because it's an immediate, must answer problem for them? What?

I don't understand why you're bringing up delver as an issue, to be honest. Mull to a hand that will get you out of the early game, then top deck one of the 15 cards that crush delver or one of the 9 cards that can find them.

I believe Qweerios means that in certain BUG Pod lists, Baleful is the only card that can stop Delver. Not sure of his list though, as now we have Abrupt Decay, Deed @ 1 or 0 (forget the transformation CMC) in a pinch, etc, etc.

However, I can see what he's saying: that stabilizing early against tempo/aggro strategies is crucial for us to win, and a considerable part of that battle is getting a Veteran Explorer trigger to resolve. The only way to do that against evasive beats is through Cabal Therapy or another sac-outlet, which forces us to find another method of answering said beats (e.g. Delver, Tombstalker, TNN, etc.)

[Arianrhod]

What he's saying is that Strix is a splash+splash (UB are not core colors for BUG nic fit, G is) card that is must-answer, therefore it will be answered, but to even attempt to cast it, you have to overextend your mana base. You're overextending for the possibility of getting a Strix into play, but Delver decks are so frontloaded with counters, removal, etc, that the chance of that Strix sticking are basically null.

Consider:

RUG leads Delver.
You lead fetch pass.
They drop a goose, swing for 1 (or 3, either way).
You drop a Sea, fetch for Trop, play Strix, it gets Dazed.
They untap, bash you, waste your Trop, and hold Stifle for your next land drop (if it's a fetch).

I'm not saying that's the most common scenario per se, but Strix -does- bait you into overextending to be able to cast it. It's a phenomenal card if it sticks, but odds are that you're going to be dead by the time you get a Strix to stick.

[Qweerios]

You don't like strix against delver because it's an immediate, must answer problem for them? What?

I don't understand why you're bringing up delver as an issue, to be honest. Mull to a hand that will get you out of the early game, then top deck one of the 15 cards that crush delver or one of the 9 cards that can find them.

This is exactly the issue here. 4 BS doesn't render a 2-card combo consistent. I have never mulliganed so much with a Nic Fit deck than when I started playing without GSZ.

Blue Pod decks sacrifice cards like Decay for Deeds and Recurring Nightmare. Those are much slower and easier to disrupt which converts to 2-3 additional Delver swings. Having Brainstorm > GSZ and Strix > SFM means that you have to fetch dual lands in the early turns meaning that Wasteland will convert into more Delver swings. Without GSZ you have less acceleration and less copies of Explorer. Brainstorm doesn't equate GSZ in terms of consistency for a specific card (AKA: early mana (AKA: all you care about to find with BS)). For a heavy green and black deck, the blue commitment that Strix, BS, and even some of the creatures require (Sower) is way too high. T1 GSZ for Dryad and T2 GSZ for DRS is a common play that allows the deck to function.

@Ish,

There were a couple other users on this forum that played Junk Pod but I don't know where they went. Here's the list I use:


Creatures (22)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver (Reclamation Sage)
1 Orzhov Pontiff

1 Murderous Redcap
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Restoration Angel

1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Others (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Abrupt Decay

3 Birthing Pod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Lands (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Choke
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize


As you can see the deck functions mostly on green and black mana. It consistently gets a T1 mana dork or a T1 Therapy followed with a T2 Explorer. There are no 6drops, less 5drops, and most creatures are accessible through GSZ. I have plenty of life gain for Pod activations with Jitte and BSkull. Jitte is simply a great card to have with Explorer as well. The SFM package greatly benefits from all the acceleration and the endgame generally involves a Sigarda with an equipment. Unlike most Pod decks, this one can generate a lot of value and be extremely versatile without ever seeing a Pod.

It is also interesting to note how diverse the Tutor board is with plenty of singleton Artifact/Enchantment creatures that can be Poded into as well. I will often bring the entire 15 cards out of the SB to combat combo decks while I only need to replace 1-3 cards in the main for most fair matchups.
...Yes, Leyline of Sanctity can be problematic but I can live with that.

***EDIT*** both answers above are what I meant about Strix.

[GtF]

My Nic Fit testing for the last year was limited to Pod variants. I basically shelved traditional Nic Fit when it stopped being a metagame deck in the RUG/Maverick era. The latest lists I have played were all BUG Pod variants. However, there lots of hiccups that confirmed my initial suspicions about this deck. I still cannot figure out why BUG is more common than Junk.

Glen Elendra is one of the best creatures I have ever played in a Pod deck hands down... but so is SFM

Just like playing Stoneblade with 3 Jace, most of my games don't involve a Pod because I only play 3 and consists of a "must-counter". As a Pod-less Pod deck, BUG is fairly weak and a Goyf will pose a serious threat while a Bob will likely go unanswered for several turns.

The more I played, the more I would try to increase my GSZ count to 2-3 and squeeze more green creatures in. The more GSZ I had, the more consistency I would get in my early turns, and consequently, the more I wished the top of my curve was green.

Strix forces shaky manabases early on as blue and black on T2 requires more dual lands and leads to unnecessary blowouts. Strix never stopped any Delver from swinging at me because he is the only thing that would stand between a T1 Delver and my life total, therefore he was always countered or removed.

I never reached Grave Titan in a timely fashion in any competitive game against any of the top tier decks, not even once... The only times I would reach him were when the game was already over (AKA: climbing a Pod chain).

I lost most of the matches I played against good players piloting good decks. Most of my losses were due to a vulnerable manabase, impossible mana costs, being unable to Brainstorm early without a Dual land, not having an answer to Bob, having my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards, or simply having all my key cards countered. Unless you side in 12+ high impact cards against combo, Pod has too much dead weight in the main to consistently beat combo decks.

Just chiming in to say I've found Delver matchups to be vastly in BUG pod's favor. I haven't really had problems with Blue mana or casting Baleful Strix or Brainstorm. When I lose to Delver it's because they are able to keep me off mana in general, not blue in particular. Also sometimes I lose by flooding out. But, yeah, our experiences are quite different. I find the matchup to be definitively in favor of BUG Pod against all variants of Delver. I've also won often without drawing Birthing Pod (in fact, a majority of the time against Delver I win without Pod). It does happen sometimes that you'll draw all your expensive pod targets and they'll snipe all your mana and you'll lose. I have a hard time seeing how being stuck with a Grave Titan vs. a Sigarda in hand if you only have 2 mana makes much of a difference, but I guess I'll take your word for it.
Tarmogoyf is not a big problem for BUG Pod, primarily because of Baleful Strix (and all the other creatures that gum up the ground).
Dark Confidant IS a problem, and that and TNN are the reasons I'd want to play white for Orzhov Pontiff.

Anyway, it's not hard for me to concede the point that Junk might be better against Delver than BUG, but I don't see how it matters if the BUG matchup vs delver is still very good (which I think it is). I suppose if the BUG's matchup vs. the rest of the field were no better, it would be a mistake not to discard it for junk, but I don't think that's the case.
Your arguments about the merits of the junk version are good though, and I'll seek to try it out at the next opportunity I get.

In re: a question about snapcaster mage from a page ago: I wouldn't play snapcaster with only brainstorm and abrupt decay as targets.

[firebadmattgood]

GtF, my experience mirrors yours. They can't keep BUG pod in the early game, and our card quality is so much higher than theirs that they get rolled in the mid to late game.


This is exactly the issue here. 4 BS doesn't render a 2-card combo consistent.

You don't need the "combo", you just need the explorer and two mana sources. Obviously their nut hand is still their nut hand, but just dropping an explorer on turn 2 to play around daze will hold off 8 of their threats until they find a stifle, which they will now not be able to use on lilly/deed/shriekmaw/redcap/pod/fleshbag maurader.

I think the mistake you're making is in aggressively using your brainstorms and strixes in the early game. Fetch a basic forest and a basic swamp first, only drop your duals on the turn you intend to use them, and take a couple beats while you lock your mana down. I don't use brainstorm to find mana sources in the early game unless forced to by a series of bad mulls. I use brainstorm in the mid-late game to fill my hand with a bunch of haymakers that the delver decks can't repeatedly answer.

[gigapatrick]

On Bug Pod versus Delver.dec:

My experience has also been very similar to GtF's and firebadmattgood's. Should be a good matchup, even without running more than one copy of Abrupt Decay.

On Bug Pod's sideboard:

Would anyone be willing to chime in on their strategies against combo decks with the Force of Will / Pilferer / Envelop board configuration? I've been using this configuration for a little bit of time now, and I'm still finding the Storm matchup unwinnable, despite often seeing Force and Pilferer in my opening grip. Sneak Show and Elves have been a little bit easier to combat, while Reanimator remains awful. I understand that, yes, Storm and Reanimator are difficult to defeat for Bug Pod, but I still must be doing something wrong if my Forces are doing nothing in those matchups.

I saw a list of Shardless Bug on ChannelFireball, which sports one Savannah in the board to enable four Meddling Mages to come in for the various combo matchups. Would something like this be worth testing for Bug Pod? Mage helps cast Force, doesn't get discarded to Duress, and has an immediate effect on the board state, unlike Pilferer.

[GtF]

On Bug Pod versus Delver.dec:

My experience has also been very similar to GtF's and firebadmattgood's. Should be a good matchup, even without running more than one copy of Abrupt Decay.

On Bug Pod's sideboard:

Would anyone be willing to chime in on their strategies against combo decks with the Force of Will / Pilferer / Envelop board configuration? I've been using this configuration for a little bit of time now, and I'm still finding the Storm matchup unwinnable, despite often seeing Force and Pilferer in my opening grip. Sneak Show and Elves have been a little bit easier to combat, while Reanimator remains awful. I understand that, yes, Storm and Reanimator are difficult to defeat for Bug Pod, but I still must be doing something wrong if my Forces are doing nothing in those matchups.

I saw a list of Shardless Bug on ChannelFireball, which sports one Savannah in the board to enable four Meddling Mages to come in for the various combo matchups. Would something like this be worth testing for Bug Pod? Mage helps cast Force, doesn't get discarded to Duress, and has an immediate effect on the board state, unlike Pilferer.

It might not be a bad strategy. If you were doing that, I'd want to squeeze in a pontiff and maybe an ethersworn cannonist as well. The awkward thing about riptide pilferer is that it's not really usable against combo decks using the graveyard (reanimator and dredge mainly). Additionally, I could see Meddling Mage being good against Miracles, where we need the help. It also works great with Cabal Therapy. On the other hand, how good is an SB card if you can't get it into play reliably before you're killed? Would need to see how consistent it is.

The general plan is to board out all the expensive pod targets and some (1-2) of the pods or the recurring nightmare. Some strixes and Explorers can go as well. Against SnT, you can keep in a few more of the creatures that are good vs the Card Show and Tell.
Basically you morph into a weird fish deck. If they can't go off in the first few turns, a few hits of pilferer or an on-board Glen Elendra or a Scavenging Ooze make things pretty impossible eventually.

[jbone2016]

Hey, I've been away for a long long time :P. I am still the only one playing the rector version? lol

I'm still playing with Rector/Living Wish. Went 6-2-1 at SCG Milwaukee and then 4-1-1 at a side event at GP Mpls. I'm fairly happy with it still.

[Krimson Viper]

Awesome! Thank you Ari for the amazing post you gave last page. Really helpful, along with Qweerios insight to the use of Pod.

Could the posters of the last 2 pages post their lists? I'm looking to get an idea of everything I could be working with, :)

[Qweerios]

Everyone defending BUG Pod against Delver decks seem to be talking about their supposed "god hands" and the right way to use Brainstorm. If a god hand means a Delver with counterspell backup and a Wasteland, those tend to happen quite often. Let's not forget that they also play Brainstorm with Ponders on top of that. Delver decks have a low curve and function effectively on just a couple of lands. Delvers, Deathrites, and Nemesis can't be blocked by Explorers so no Therapies means Explorers don't do anything. A "god hand" from a Delver deck generally involves multiple evasive threats, wastelands, and the right combination of soft counters/removal for a swift death. Let's not forget that fetches can be stifled and lands can be hymned away too. A skilled player piloting a Delver deck will more often than not restrict your land drops and colors available and all you can do is function on limited resources. All I am saying here is that Junk can, and BUG cannot.

As for Brainstorm uses, there is only one good way to use one: to extend your hand and deploy your strategy smoothly while shuffling away or delaying unwanted cards in favor of useful ones. With 20-22 lands you are likely to make your first 2-3 land drops. It is very common that you have only 2 lands, which are not necessarily basics and that you brainstorm into another and cannot shuffle or do not draw into any more for a few turns. These are extremely common scenarios that Delver decks prey upon. Clearly in the testaments above, Brainstorms are not needed since the players playing BUG Pod seem to be making all their land drops, having their Deathrites fed and untouched or their Explorers facing a blockable threat, and somehow manage to curve out naturally. In 12 years of magic I have brainstormed on T2 more times than I can count because Brainstorm is a card that allows you to keep more hands than you otherwise should. Everything a Brainstorm does in the early stages for a Pod deck, a GSZ will do better. GSZ is also arguably better later on as well even if it is a bit different from BS.

The issues I face with Delver decks while playing BUG Pod are also common against midrange decks. I play in a very competitive environment with skilled players and decks like Shardless BUG, Team America, Blade Control, and Jund to name a few will often:

-take as much advantage of my Explorers as I will;
-have too much disruption for me to deploy (and that can often only be a single Thoughtseize, Hymn, or a countered key spell);
-play cards that I cannot deal with in time due to the shitstorm of different cards in the deck that have no backbone to hold them together other than Pod;
-simply have the potential to grind me out with cards like Liliana, Jace, Jitte, PFire, Nemesis, AV, Sylvan Library...

When I play Junk, however, games take a different turn. While I may not have the occasional Nightmare loops, blowout Deed, and overkill Pod chains, I do get to play most of my cards in nearly every game. It is no secret that Pod decks need mana acceleration. Explorer on his own does not accelerate you into anything and even with a Therapy does not ensure that you will generate a favorable board position from the interaction. The Junk version has more "core" cards that hold the deck together (4 GSZ, 3 Pod, 3 SFM) than BUG (4 BS, and 3 Pod). Consider this:

Junk vs. BUG (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13652&iddeck=100285)

T1 Accel: 7 vs. 3
T2 Accel: 4 vs 1
# Explorers: 4+4 GSZ vs. 4+1 GSZ
# 1 Drops: 11+4 GSZ vs. 11 (15 if you count BS)
# 2 Drops: 11+4 GSZ vs. 8+1 GSZ (13 with BS)
# 3 Drops: 7+4 GSZ vs. 9+1 GSZ (Deed included)
# 4 Drops: 3+4 GSZ vs. 3+1 GSZ
# 5 Drops: 3 vs. 3
# 6 Drops: 0+4 GSZ vs. 1+1 GSZ

Color distribution:
26 Green cards vs. 20 Green cards
14 Black cards vs. 18 Black cards
7 White cards vs. 11 Blue cards
4 GB cards vs. 3 GB cards
3 GW cards vs. 0 GU cards
1 BW card vs. 4 BU cards

Color weight:
28 Green symbols vs. 23 Green symbols
16 Black symbols vs. 20 Black symbols
7 White symbols vs. 12 Blue symbols

Color availability for 21 lands + mana dorks available:
17+7 Green sources vs. 15+3 Green sources
14+7 Black sources vs. 15+4 Black sources
13+7 White sources vs. 15+4 Blue sources

[Svknoe]

Would anyone be willing to chime in on their strategies against combo decks with the Force of Will / Pilferer / Envelop board configuration? I've been using this configuration for a little bit of time now, and I'm still finding the Storm matchup unwinnable, despite often seeing Force and Pilferer in my opening grip. Sneak Show and Elves have been a little bit easier to combat, while Reanimator remains awful. I understand that, yes, Storm and Reanimator are difficult to defeat for Bug Pod, but I still must be doing something wrong if my Forces are doing nothing in those matchups.

I have had a lot of success with the Pilferer sideboard. I think that Storm is a little unfavourable. My experience is about 40-60. Game 1 is nigh unwinnable. They have to have a very slow hand and you have to get an active Glen Elendra Archmage. Post board I aim to slow them down with Therapy, Envelop and Force for a bit, while Pilferers attack their hand. I often wait to play the Pilferer until turn 3 if I have an Envelop. The ultimate goal is to cast or Pod into an Archmage. I board in about 12 hate cards post board, and take out all other Pod targets than Archamge, Witness and Finks (to pod into Archmage). I keep 3-4 Strixes for blue count and Therapy fodder.

Elves is difficult. Envelop, Deed, Therapy and Golgari Charm are great. I don't board in Force. My experience versus Reanimator is the exact opposite of yours. I have lost perhaps one tournament match against it out of about 15. The combination of the combo hate and 4 Deathrite plus Ooze makes me often able to stop them from comboing. It may just be not be representative, but I still feel favoured after they land Gristlebrand. Between Sower, Venser, Phantasmal Image, Pod and Strix, Gristlebrand is very manageble. I think that their best card is Elesh Norn, which is difficult to beat. I think that Sneak and Show is similar, but a little worse. I generally beat turn 2-3 Show and Tell. Sneak attack is tough. I keep Acidic Slime and board in Golgari Charm for it. It is my most common Therapy name. In my experience their most threatening play is to use a cantrip to put Sneak Attack followed by a monster on the top of their library.

@ Delver match ups

It seems very reasonable that Junk has a better match up against Delver. I agree with GtF that the match up is still very good with BUG. Unless desperate I postpone all of my plays a turn or two to play around mana denial and soft counters. Being at 14 or sometimes 11 before playing a Strix is fine, in my experience.

[firebadmattgood]

Your earlier post


having my plans shattered by a single Thoughtseize or Hymn because of the high interdependence of my cards

Your most recent post


play cards that I cannot deal with in time due to the shitstorm of different cards in the deck that have no backbone to hold them together other than Pod

This criticism isn't coherent.


In 12 years of magic I have brainstormed on T2 more times than I can count because Brainstorm is a card that allows you to keep more hands than you otherwise should.

Yep, I'm going to stick with operator error here. Delver decks exist to punish people who keep a hand that they hope brainstorm fixes.

Look, your praise for junk colors and GSZ are perfectly valid, and I have no doubt that this configuration improves the midrange/control matchup (a resolved Jace/skull suuuuucks when you're on BUG). I just can't accept the criticism that the delver matchup is something that needs improving.

[heathen]

I'm brand new to Nic Fit and would like some input on this list:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
3 Restoration Angel
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Pernicious Deed

My main idea was that Restoration Angel seems to fit well with the Nic Fit ramp strategy, and seems to be a decent creature in general (provides value when it comes into play, has flash, is evasive, and doesn't die to Bolt or Abrupt Decay).

No sideboard yet, but it will be geared heavily towards beating combo since the main deck looks like it would have an atrocious combo matchup. I'm not looking to make my main deck focused on anti-combo, though. Anyway, any input on the main deck would be appreciated.

[Arianrhod]

Resto is definitely very powerful, but I don't think you have quite enough to do with her at the moment. I'd cut out the Lilianas and the Thoughtseizes to bulk up your creature package a little. Liliana is strong vs combo but weak vs fair, and if you want them you should probably sideboard them -- they're kind of anti-synergistic with Resto since it discourages you from +1ing Liliana, and you don't really want to hold lands to discard to her because Nic fit gets better the more lands you have in play. I'm not a fan of the 2-main Thoughtseize plan that I see cropping up in peoples' lists from time to time, and I'd rather see those be higher-impact cards (preferably something that plays well with Resto).

[MeisterMitschl]

Hello community,

first, let me introduce myself as a long-time lurker and – finally – first-time poster. I really appreciate the hard work all of you contribute to evolve the archetype. Second, let me uncover myself as a player who is taking Nic Fit to tournaments for only about one year and a half now. So I have experience with different incarnations, ranging from straight GB over Rector to Junk Pod, but am aware that I still have to improve my play. Currently, I am on a slightly modified version of Qweerios’ Junk Pod-list from a couple of pages ago (337/338) and feeling very comfortable with it.

@Qweerios: Now that you have posted your most recent list, I have a few questions regarding some of your choices. Some time ago you stressed that the more you play the deck, the less you want to see Explorer, especially when it shows up in the late game. If I remember right, you also stated that the Shamans are capable to do quite a lot of work for the deck and upped their number to 4. So you finally concluded to run the following configuration of mana dorks: 4 Shamans, 2 Explorers, 1 Bird of Paradise – why did you go back again?

While I absolutely understand that Academy Rector is a bit fragile at times and that Pernicious Deed and Recurring Nightmare are situational cards, I always appreciate the opportunity to have and find a reset button. Also, the line of Rector -> sac into Pod -> fetch Recurring Nightmare + Thragtusk presents a challenge most decks are not capable to solve. Why did you discard the Rector-package? Is it because of consistency issues, e.g. to have room for the whole playset Abrupt Decay?

As a follow-up: It seems that Entomber Exarch is your replacement for Rector and I can see that it is a very versatile card, adopting part of the job Recurring Nightmare did, while also having applications independent of the graveyard. In theory, however, both effects seem underwhelming to me, even against control decks where Exarch seems to shine the most – although I have not yet tested the card in a sufficient number of actual games, I admit. Don’t you miss a Pod target that offers a terror-effect? Might Nekrataal be a valuable replacement for Entomber Exarch? I would appreciate if you could elaborate on your recent changes a bit.

@All: feels great to be part of the Source now and I hope that I might be able to contribute some insight/ideas in the future as well. :smile:

[MrShine]

Here's how I would catalogue each major variant...

Bravo Sir, Bravo. The work you are doing on here should not be understated. *slow clap*

---

Re: Qweerios, Delver MUs, BUG vs JUNK:

People tend to overstate their win-rate against any kind of deck, and you can see it in basically every deck-thread. I don't doubt that there are NicFit pilots who are perfectly capable of winning a large percentage of games against Delver decks, but it is extremely variable due to the variance of lists that people are running (both on our and the opponent's side), and the experience & skill of the pilots involved. Don't let experiences with and versus multiple differing archetypes of NicFit and Delver bleed into each other too much. Punishing Fit is different than BUG Pod, and UWR is different than RUG.

I think Qweerios has a point here. Stop picking apart the specifics of what he's saying and look at the big picture here: If you're facing Delver decks, a deck with 6-8 copies of Decay and STP is going to fare much better than one with simply 3-4 copies of Decay, and its almost impossible to argue that. Spot removal is King against the Mono-threat.dec. BUG Pod lists are more skewed towards U creatures, which, as the splash colour, automatically makes it more susceptible to land disruption, which Delver decks aim to maximize. Still only RUG is playing the full Stifle/Waste/Daze package, so as above, remember that the MU b/w each variant will have different crux-points of what is relevant.

So what is the takeaway from this? It is, as always, just a note on the metagame positioning of both decks: If you're expecting a ton of Delver, you're probably going to have a better time with JUNK. If there is going to be more Control / Miracles, BUG and Glen Elendra will probably serve you better. Whether or not that makes them better in a vacuum is irrelevant; Legacy (and MTG as a whole) has always been and will always be a format of Metagaming.

[heathen]

Resto is definitely very powerful, but I don't think you have quite enough to do with her at the moment. I'd cut out the Lilianas and the Thoughtseizes to bulk up your creature package a little. Liliana is strong vs combo but weak vs fair, and if you want them you should probably sideboard them -- they're kind of anti-synergistic with Resto since it discourages you from +1ing Liliana, and you don't really want to hold lands to discard to her because Nic fit gets better the more lands you have in play. I'm not a fan of the 2-main Thoughtseize plan that I see cropping up in peoples' lists from time to time, and I'd rather see those be higher-impact cards (preferably something that plays well with Resto).

Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.

[Arianrhod]

Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.

Add smaller value creatures, but make sure that you aren't just adding them because they happen to play well with Resto. If you want anything top-end-y, add either a 2nd Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan. MAYBE you could try an Armada Wurm, but that might be pushing it.

Entomber Exarch is a good one. Don't forget that its "duress" effect can take lands.

Also, if you're looking at a Resto-based variant, there's no reason you shouldn't be playing a Recurring Nightmare. Yeah, you don't have Rector or Diabolic Intent to go grab it, but whenever you do manage to hit it / Top into it, it's going to be absolutely nuts with your style of deck. So many ETB triggers. You could reasonably add an Intent, though, even without Rector. Creature count might be a little low, but Demonic Tutor is so strong.

Oh, and as I look at it some more, I'd cut Wickerbough. You're already running Acidic Slime, which does the same thing (but better) and plays nicer with your deck's theme.

Your manabase looks super wonky, too. 1 of each white dual and 1 plains is not sufficient to support Sigarda + 3 Angels + any other creatures + sideboard options (of which white typically has the most powerful).

I'll offer some more thoughts when I get time to do so.

[heathen]

Thanks for the insight. Putting together the manabase was one of the many times I felt lost in assembling the list. I definitely like the Entomber Exarch suggestion.

[Qweerios]

Your earlier post



Your most recent post



This criticism isn't coherent.



Yep, I'm going to stick with operator error here. Delver decks exist to punish people who keep a hand that they hope brainstorm fixes.

Look, your praise for junk colors and GSZ are perfectly valid, and I have no doubt that this configuration improves the midrange/control matchup (a resolved Jace/skull suuuuucks when you're on BUG). I just can't accept the criticism that the delver matchup is something that needs improving.

I won't comment on these responses as I don't believe them to be constructive. If you do not understand something, point it out and ask a question

@MrShine,

Thank you for this clear and concise recap. You sir, are spot on. With that cleared, I wanted to bring up the question of whether blue really does have the better combo matchup. There is no doubt in my mind that blue is important in a matchup like Sneak Show, but I do believe that the Junk version has as much if not more to offer against storm combo decks and Elves. Personally I don't feel comfortable with any Nic Fit deck against any SnT decks. Stage-Depths combo decks are about as bad as 12-Post if not worst.

@MeisterMitschl,

I am still working around with DRS and Explorer numbers. DRS in Pod, as you have probably noticed, plays out a little differently from other DRS decks. Mainly we want the mana dork for an extended period of time. On one hand feeding 2 DRS at once with mana is not always possible and an opponent's DRS can contest your mana production. Basically throughout most games your turns are usually optimized by a DRS producing mana, not dealing damage. You also don't always want to chip away at your graveyard in general. For this reason I try to avoid having multiple copies on the field at the same time (BoP is generally the better 2nd dork). On the other hand DRS is always your best T1 play and if you are to have 1 dork in play, DRS is the one you want against an unknown opponent.

Explorer is somewhat similar. We are an Explorer/Therapy deck so it is only natural to wish to have the most of both. I still dislike seeing the 2nd and 3rd Explorers but it is usually worth it if it means you get to see the 1st one more often. With that said, I will probably revert to a 3/3/1 split in the near future. It is important to note that these observations are only relevant with a playset of GSZ as any other version would probably want to play 4 DRS and 4 Explorers.

As for Rector, your assessment is correct. I wanted to make space for the full playset of Decays and Rector was on my chopping block. I really liked Rector at first on paper but I quickly started disliking him in practice. Without enough spot removal, opposing DRS can be a real pain as they can represent major disruption for our value engines (Nightmare, Recursion, Persist, DRS food, Rector). Maybe I had some bad runs but I would often have drawn and/or used Deed and Nightmare already when the time came to play Rector and I would therefore have no targets. Also, Poding out Rector is very satisfying and rare/difficult while Poding into Rector is often sub-par compared to our other targets if you want to have an immediate impact. In short, I think the additional copies of Decay bring more to the deck than the Rector package as the deck already has plenty of ways to generate an insurmountable board position and lacks answers to cards like DRS, Delver, Bob, SFM, etc...

I too have little experience with Entomber Exarch as I am currently testing him. I like how his abilities are always relevant and more recursion is always good. Nekrataal is fine but I think Shriekmaw is much better. Personally I would love to see a good GSZ target at 4 mana in that slot.

[firebadmattgood]

I won't comment on these responses as I don't believe them to be constructive. If you do not understand something, point it out and ask a question

I was extremely specific in every post regarding the delver matchup thus far, so I'm not sure why you think I don't understand something.

You have alternately referred to the BUG lists as a pile of highly interdependent cards and as a shitstorm of different cards with nothing but pod to hold them together (two mutually exclusive descriptions). You have complained about getting punished with wasteland for fetching duals for an early strix that runs right into daze or spot removal. You have complained about getting punished with wasteland for fetching a dual so that you can brainstorm on turn 2. Strangely, you've said that you run into the same issues in both delver and midrange decks. I have provided explicit feedback on every one of the issues you've faced, and other users are similarly baffled by the claim that the delver matchup needs to be improved.

The way to play BUG pod is to take your beats in the early game while locking down your mana, then take control of the board state. If you're fighting over the board with a strix on turn 2, you're doing it wrong. It's really that simple.

It's clear that you are not interested in addressing any of these points, so I'm fine if you want to consider this closed.

[Qweerios]

The way to play BUG pod is to take your beats in the early game while locking down your mana, then take control of the board state. If you're fighting over the board with a strix on turn 2, you're doing it wrong. It's really that simple.

Every control deck facing a Delver deck wants to develop its mana, manage the threats, and deploy its greater threats (AKA: take over). What I am discussing here is that BUG's lines of play are narrower than the others' because its requirements are so high in both mana and colors. What you seem so determined to perceive are scenarios where the problems I raise are not present. You say I play card X, Y, and Z wrong when I mean to describe scenarios where our choices are limited.

When you play a real match against a real opponent, your options significantly decrease and sometimes you will find yourself in dire straights. It is only normal that a Delver deck have the advantage over a Pod deck in the early stages because all of their cards cost less than ours. What is different with BUG Pod when you compare it to other control decks is how expensive all the cards are in terms of mana and colors, and how shaky and scarce the manabase is because it relies so heavily on an Explorer trigger. Brainstorm doesn't nearly help us develop as much as Miracles or Stoneblade for example because blue is our tertiary color while it is their primary. Using BS for mana development then becomes a double-edged sword because of the strain it puts on it in the first place. The same logic applies to Strix when you try to get UB by turn 2-3 against a Delver for "virtual removal" that gets countered by a Bolt or a Decay.

Have a look at the numbers on the previous page, they are quite telling of the color spread and the deck's inability to produce enough mana. Or just go to this link: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/sample_hand.asp?id=1188738 try a few sample hands and notice how many just lose to a single Wasteland or a removal spell on your DRS. I've calculated 4/10 sample hands that simply couldn't cast anything against a single Waste. Only 3/10 hands had a good plan with mana development, some form of disruption, and a bomb within its next 3 turns. So basically 7/10 hands were sandcastles or didn't do much at all.

Also, I disagree that interdependent and different cards are mutually exclusive. Pod glues the creatures together because they wouldn't see play otherwise.

[HoneyT]

This is mostly for Krimson Viper who wanted some lists. These are my most current.

P-Fire Nic Fit (The version I suppose I'm the most (in)famous/known for)

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Broodmate Dragon makes a return to the list due to the nature of the metagame right now. Less combo/more attrition-y matchups where flying creatures and powerful topdecks are more important.

The next one is more for fun and a little less tried and true. But it's actually competitive believe it or not. It's certainly not as finely tuned as my other lists.

Dungrove Nic Fit

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Dungrove Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Yavimaya Dryad

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

It's awesome. Trust me. (Or try it yourself)

I've also been rocking a Junk Pod list very similar to Qweerios. I actually like his a bit better though. So play that.

Gosh. Feels good to be active and posting again.

[MrShine]

Fundamentally, if I'm playing Resto do you think it's better to add small to mid-size value creatures that I can blink with her (something like Eternal Witness), or higher impact big creatures like Grave Titan and Thragtusk? On the one hand, with smaller creatures I could have the mana to cast the creature and then EOT blink with Resto, on the other hand I could be going way over the top with bigger creatures, even if it means I have to wait a full turn to blink them.

I would put Resto at the "Top" of your curve; that is, using it to generate value by saving creatures when targeted for removal (classic DnT / Flickerwisp Move)... creatures that have ETB abilities to re-trigger is just gravy on top of that. Most of the time you probably shouldn't fire off a Resto unless you are going to blank a removal spell, kill a blocker, or start up a clock. Don't be fooled into using it just to gain some value off an ETB ability.

In that sense, slimming down the mana costs in the list will help you gain that incidental value off Resto; that ETB trigger IN ADDITION to blanking a removal spell, ideally.

I agree that cutting Wickerbough is a decent idea; you could probably try the Exarch like Arianrhod said, or a Finks... Excellent with Resto (if Melira Pod in Modern is any indication...). I'd also steer away from Grave Titan, despite his awesomeness; Resto is Bolt and Decay proof, and evasive in and of itself; should be enough to lay on the hurt.

Blade Splicer is also a great option in W when paired with Resto.

And as always, if you're playing White, Stoneforge Mystic is a thing...

--

@ Honey T - Wow, Dungrove Fit. That's some spicy stuff!!

[Krimson Viper]

This is mostly for Krimson Viper who wanted some lists. These are my most current.

P-Fire Nic Fit (The version I suppose I'm the most (in)famous/known for)

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga*
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Broodmate Dragon makes a return to the list due to the nature of the metagame right now. Less combo/more attrition-y matchups where flying creatures and powerful topdecks are more important.

The next one is more for fun and a little less tried and true. But it's actually competitive believe it or not. It's certainly not as finely tuned as my other lists.

Dungrove Nic Fit

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Dungrove Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Yavimaya Dryad

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

It's awesome. Trust me. (Or try it yourself)

I've also been rocking a Junk Pod list very similar to Qweerios. I actually like his a bit better though. So play that.

Gosh. Feels good to be active and posting again.

Awesome, thank* you!

[MeisterMitschl]

@Qweerios: Thanks for the clarification. I can only echo that DRS is indeed the best turn 1 play against an unknown opponent. Its versatility e.g. in fighting graveyard dependent strategies, in very aggressive matchups like burn or as a disruptive element against opposing DRS is not to be underestimated, but I fully agree that the “mana-ability” is the most important for us. As you say, Junk Pod runs smoothest when it hits its land drops and when its mana dorks are reliable in producing mana for an extended period of time.

Explorer, however, does not always fulfill this criterion. There are games in which you do not want to fire one off and thus are not accelerated. Now that your list doesn’t feature a 6-drop nor Pernicious Deed any more, I boldly question the remaining relevance of Explorer for this deck at all. Its only justification seems to be the combo with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy on the other hand, needs fodder in order to fully unfold its potential – but you need your creatures to sacrifice them into Pod.

With this in mind, might a configuration of 4 DRS, 3 BoP, 0 Explorers and Thoughtseize > Therapy better suited for this kind of deck? Or to put it differently: Are we really still an Explorer/Therapy-deck or are these relicts from the past and have we essentially become a Pod-deck?

[Arianrhod]

I would much, much rather run Explorer over Birds. Hell, I'd run Hierarch over Birds. If you wanted to shave back on Explorers in Pod, I'd run 4 DRS / 2 Explorer / 2 Hierarch as my package. You need to have 1-drops that you want to pod away and get value from, and Explorer is still the best in slot for that goal.

The value of Explorer as a G for 1/1 Moat is not to be underestimated, imo. Yes, competent players will often be cautious about attacking into or otherwise removing your Explorer, which inhibits his ramp ability, but you're still pulling ahead if they are preferring to abstain from smacking you for 5-6 every turn.

[MeisterMitschl]

Thanks, Arianrhod!

I see your point and appreciate the situations in which Explorer essentially functions as a Moat. However, these situations have been rare corner cases in my recent games. Additionally, the best time to pod an Explorer into a 2-drop is the early game. In this state my Explorers usually have already been sacrificed to a Therapy.
In the late game the jump from an Explorer into a 2-drop often does not provide that much value, as all the basics are already in play or are not really needed. So imo it would be basically irrelevant if you pod an Explorer or another dork, but I might be wrong.

Regarding Noble Hierarch: I was thinking of it as well, but its inability to produce black mana is quite a disadvantage, I think. Also, Birds are better in carrying equipments.

[Arianrhod]

I should've clarified what I meant.

Consider:

4 DRS
2 Noble/Birds/whatever
2 Explorer

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Birthing Pod
2 Green Sun's Zenith

XXX other creatures

Yes, the pair of Explorers won't pop that terribly often, but with Pods + Intent + Therapy (+combat in some % of times) to sac (to say nothing of some kind of sacrifice creature), the potential to do so still exists. You also aren't relying on the Explorers for ramp -- they're nice when it happens, and you have the ability to Zenith one up should you need to, but you aren't required to access one ala standard nic fit.

Birds are better at holding equipment, but I'm unconvinced that we would want any equipment other than a Batterskull in this deck. As for the black source concern, most GBW versions in particular are very non-black. There's the spot discard suite, and maybe some spot removal, a couple of Deeds and a couple of black creatures (which can be cheated on with Pod anyway).

[tadiou]

The value of Explorer as a G for 1/1 Moat is not to be underestimated, imo. Yes, competent players will often be cautious about attacking into or otherwise removing your Explorer, which inhibits his ramp ability, but you're still pulling ahead if they are preferring to abstain from smacking you for 5-6 every turn.

Have to 100% agree with this. You're slowing down the tempo of the game just by laying down an Explorer often enough...

On BUG Pod's Combo matchup: I don't play the Force/Pilferer, but instead go with Thoughseizes + Arcane Lab + Mindbreak Trap. Even then, I don't have that much issue vs Reanimator, sorta echoing Svknoe's experiences. I've dropped maybe 3-4 out of 30 or 40 matches. VS Storm, it very much is a 40-60 matchup, depending on the deck. TES is a little less favorable than ANT, and that's without playing any forces. I find that Sneak and Show tends to be a little more difficult with my configuration, but a resolved Glen Elendra usually wins on the spot. Arianrhod's comment about how it's _such a beating_ is absolutely true. Glen Elendra is just as good of a reason to run blue as Baleful Strix.

The other part is the ideological redundancy in a pod deck vs actual redundancy, there's a lot of different situational cards that end up having similar results,

On Qweerios' comment on how "if you're moving up the pod chain you've already locked it up, what's the purpose of grave titan". Can't disagree more. It's like saying "I cast Bloodbraid Elf into Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf. I won right?" Yeah, you got great value, but it doesn't ensure victory or a sweeper, or even a better board state on the other side of the board. It just stuck out to me like a sore thumb of poorly thought out logic. A value engine doesn't ensure victory, just like having loam working doesn't ensure victory, or a resolved counter top. It helps, but it's not nearly as locked down as you'd imagine it.

I'm also looking at Qweerios' hypothetical BUG Pod deck and it's vulnerability to wasteland, and the best card vs wasteland is... Deathrite Shaman. I went to a 4/3 DRS/VE split and noticed an actual difference in resilience to Wasteland vs the 4/3 VE/DRS configuration. The other option is to go to 22 lands, which I think is very reasonable. There's a few cards I'd swap, but that configuration for the most part gives me good results vs tempo decks, it's operation moreso than configuration. If theoretically it seems bad vs delver, but many of us have very good results with it in that matchup, ask why? Or how? Not just say that it's a bunch of crap and there's no way it can be good.

[Ish]

Based on BUG pod.

4/3 split. I still prefer 4 explored... The two come into play untapped lands as early as t2 are just so invaluable. And it's a great late game pod sac to strix. I rarely want to sac a DRS... And it gives you nothing if your forced to. Running deeds, therapies, and pod just make 4 VR obvious IMO. (Not arguing the power level of DRS though). I'd go 4/4 before cutting a VE.

Land count. I've been running 22 and would never consider 21. I definitely recommend 22 minimum lands.

On pod chain: so true above. Pod is a tool for chaining... Looking for value or to overwhelm an opponent / board state. It's FAR from "I'm already winning". I have however swapped grave titan for Aetherling and am very happy. My meta is more blue tempo and control, so it works great for me. It's a total beating vs miracles.




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[Qweerios]

On Qweerios' comment on how "if you're moving up the pod chain you've already locked it up, what's the purpose of grave titan". Can't disagree more. It's like saying "I cast Bloodbraid Elf into Shardless Agent into Tarmogoyf. I won right?" Yeah, you got great value, but it doesn't ensure victory or a sweeper, or even a better board state on the other side of the board. It just stuck out to me like a sore thumb of poorly thought out logic. A value engine doesn't ensure victory, just like having loam working doesn't ensure victory, or a resolved counter top. It helps, but it's not nearly as locked down as you'd imagine it.

Loam gives you a stable mana development early on, Shardless is a fine T2-3 play in the right deck, and BBE attacks the turn it comes into play for 4 mana. Grave Titan is a singleton 6drop in a deck that severely lacks redundancy. You need a Pod and a 5drop in play to tutor him up and that doesn't happen very often because resolving 2 high cost cards in any legacy match should doom your opponent. The only matchups where I would occasionally resolve a 6drop were against Blade and Miracle control decks. It so happens that against those decks a Grave Titan is not very menacing. I personally prefer the Aetherling approach suggested
by Ish.

[pfiremc13]

The idea with grave titan (and most of the bombs in nic fit) is to attempt to overwhelm your opponents' removal and counterspells. However, if you are cutting veteran explorers, I can see how you would not reach 6 mana very often against many decks. I suggest adding another 5-drop.

I don't think that a mainboard aetherling is justified only for the really grindy matchups though.

[Ish]

I don't think that a mainboard aetherling is justified only for the really grindy matchups though.

Well that's a pretty obvious statement. But if the meta was aggro shifted grave titan would probably be better.

For me... he is an there though to specifically close out games. If games aren't going long then your not even going to see your 6 drop. So I disagree that a 6 drop is used in any other matchup [i]other[i] than grindy ones.

Consider ANT/TES or burn or belcher? Even dredge or affinity or painter. I tend to side out the upper curve for hate. If these were popular decks is main board differently... Maybe even FOW instead of fatties.

In my meta these decks aren't showing up in big numbers right now... That's partly what makes him main-boardable... And why a 6 drop in general is pretty relevant right now.


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[pfiremc13]

Qweerios's problem with grave titan is that it is only relevant against stoneblade and miracles (the "really grindy matchups" I was referring to). He then suggested using aetherling for those two matchups. I disagree with that approach because you are using a maindeck slot for only 2 matchups. I suggested that if you need something else to close out the game and you don't usually get to cast 6 drops, add another 5 drop. You seem to disagree with Qweerios that aetherling is just for those 2 matchups, and that's fine. Run it if you think it will be useful more often. But what I was saying to Qweerios is that you shouldn't run a maindeck card just for 2 matchups.

[Qweerios]

I agree that you shouldn't main a card that is only good against a couple of decks unless those decks are rampant. However, Aetherling is not only good against two decks, but against every deck Grave Titan is good against as well. I find Aetherling to be much more in line with that reasoning as well since Titan is itself an extremely narrow card that applies to even less matchups than Aetherling. Yes, the Titan has better immediate defensive abilities but the two 6drops are as backbreaking as each other for most fair matchups out there. Aetherling happens to be relevant in a key matchup where Grave Titan isn't, therefore I give Aetherling priority. Overall you are more likely to ride an Aetherling to victory against any Death/Stone Blade/DnT (StP + Equipment), midrange Jund/Loam/Maverick/Junk (PFire, Mom, StP, Liliana), UW Control (Verdict, Terminus, StP) decks than any Titan out there.

It is important to note how the top of your Pod chain does not have to grant immediate value upon arrival/departure. The top of your Pod chain should be everything you need to close out a game you could not finish with your value creatures. Evasion, reach, power, resilience, etc. are all good characteristics to break a board stall or render an opponent hopeless.

[pfiremc13]

That's why I suggest adding another 5-drop: it will be relevant in more matchups and will help with the "overwhelm your opponent with bombs" plan.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Latest list of mine ^_^ still in testing, but like Arianrhod said, white adds more potency in terms of sideboard options.

4C0R Legendary Nic Fit (Shorthand for Four-Color No-Red)

60 Main/15 Side
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Captain Sisay
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thassa, God of the Seas
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
///
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
2 Venser, Shaper-Savant
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace

Theoretical Notes:
4-3-1 Split with Fetches: Miracles and combo, I think, are the matchups I would need the white mana for, and most of those lists do not run wasteland. Therefore, all eight fetches can safely fetch a Savannah against those decks.

Captain Sisay Main: I did a bit of goldsinning* with this list as a pure Junk version with KotR, Cap'n, and PrimeTime, and found that combo of Cap'n and PrimeTime did pretty well in terms of assembling potent loop enablers such as Stronghold+Tower.

Gaddock Teeg Side: My goal with this is to bring it against Miracles and certain forms of combo to shut their win-cons down. As far a Miracles goes, once it hits the board, the only outs they have are StP, Venser, and Karakas.

Venser-Shaper Savant+Karakas: My hard-lock against Show and Tell: sure they do whatever they want with Griselbrand or Sneak Attack, but whatever touches the board will not stay (Venser-bounces everything that isn't Sneak Attacking; Karakas bounces pretty much everything that's Sneak Attacking).

I'll post a more comprehensive set of notes once I playtest this, but I'm liking how fun yet powerful this little pile works ^_^

*Goldsinning: Goldfishing with a decklist that requires extended interaction with your opponent to be viable.

[Megadeus]

Sissy seems sweet, but your targets are meh. There are already enough ways to fetch up the towers with out playing a slow card.

[Arianrhod]

Some thoughts for ELC:

-) Why no Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? It's legendary (either main or side).

-) Why Thassa with like, no way to ever activate her?

-) The biggest sin in my estimation: why is there no Sigarda in this deck?

-) Why Golgari Charm over Council's Judgment? It's not like Nic Fit cares that CJ costs 3 mana, and it solves literally anything. If you're maining the Charms because of a flex spot that can handle TNN, CJ seems better for that purpose.

-) I'd split 1-1 Vindicate/Pulse (or maybe even run 2 Vindicate + 2 CJ if you really want that much removal). Sometimes you're going to need to have an answer in your deck to a problem land, like a Glacial Chasm or an Academy Ruins.

-) My biggest problem with this deck is that it feels very low-power to me. Like, you have Sisay so you're looking to set up big engines, but you don't really have anything other than Two Towers. Adding Sigarda would help that, but even then I kind of feel like you're drowning in removal and don't have enough bombs. I'd consider shaving ~2 removal spells for additional bombs of some kind -- either legends or planeswalkers, depending on which way you want to go with it.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Sissy seems sweet, but your targets are meh. There are already enough ways to fetch up the towers with out playing a slow card.

True ... the only things it can fetch that others can't are Thassa in the main and Venser in the side. Might use Wickerbough Elder again, especially since it plays well with both Thassa and our own Tops while also answering Batterskull and other Tops (made a post a while back about how to play around both with Pridemage/WBE, but the jist is to activate the ability in response to them trying to save it).


Some thoughts for ELC:

-) Why no Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? It's legendary (either main or side).

-) Why Thassa with like, no way to ever activate her?

-) The biggest sin in my estimation: why is there no Sigarda in this deck?

-) Why Golgari Charm over Council's Judgment? It's not like Nic Fit cares that CJ costs 3 mana, and it solves literally anything. If you're maining the Charms because of a flex spot that can handle TNN, CJ seems better for that purpose.

-) I'd split 1-1 Vindicate/Pulse (or maybe even run 2 Vindicate + 2 CJ if you really want that much removal). Sometimes you're going to need to have an answer in your deck to a problem land, like a Glacial Chasm or an Academy Ruins.

-) My biggest problem with this deck is that it feels very low-power to me. Like, you have Sisay so you're looking to set up big engines, but you don't really have anything other than Two Towers. Adding Sigarda would help that, but even then I kind of feel like you're drowning in removal and don't have enough bombs. I'd consider shaving ~2 removal spells for additional bombs of some kind -- either legends or planeswalkers, depending on which way you want to go with it.

1. My experience with Tabernacle has been pretty meh so-far: definitely not that impressed by it. Not saying it isn't powerful, but when I was running it, the only decks it did well against were Tribal swarm decks like Gobbos, Fish, or Elves!: that is, most other decks were content with sticking a few high-powered threats on the board and keeping them alive.

2. Hmm ... well, originally the thought was that non-destructive enchantment removal was rarely played in Legacy, but that might have changed with Council's Judgment, so ... the primary reason I run her is as a recursive card quality engine and a way to enable big beats to swing through blockers. If I wanted a 5/5 for 3, I'd run Goyf or KotR :P.

3. Trust me: I would love to fit a Sigarda in here somewhere. I'm just not convinced I'd be able to hit the double white for her consistently without making my manabase vulnerable.

4. Point taken: though my concern with Judgment is the same with Sigarda - hitting that double white to use it.

5. Again, point taken: to be honest, I'm surprised this slipped my mind.

6. True ... how bout the following changes then?

-2 Golgari Charm
-1 Captain Sisay
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Wickerbough Elder
+1 Vindicate
+1 Pernicious Deed (from Side)
+1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
///
-1 Pernicious Deed (to Main)
+1 ??? (not sure tbh)

[Arianrhod]

Those are reasonable changes if you want to stay away from the double white costs, but I'm not actually convinced that you should. Like, I look at your deck, and it looks a lot more like a Rock (gbw control, specifically) variant which is splashing blue for Brainstorm and sideboard, than it does a BUG-splash-white list. Let's break down the original list:

4 Veteran Explorer (G)
4 Deathrite Shaman (g/b)
1 Scavenging Ooze (G)
1 Eternal Witness (GG)
1 Captain Sisay (GW)
1 Thragtusk (G)
1 Primeval Titan (GG)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (G)
3 Brainstorm (U)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (x)
1 Thassa, God of the Seas (U)
1 Diabolic Intent (B)
4 Cabal Therapy (B)
3 Pernicious Deed (GB)
3 Abrupt Decay (GB)
2 Golgari Charm (GB)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (GB)
///
1 Gaddock Teeg (GW)
2 Enlightened Tutor (W)
3 Surgical Extraction (B/2)
2 Engineered Explosives (x)
1 Pernicious Deed (GB)
2 Pithing Needle (x)
2 Venser, Shaper-Savant (UU)
1 Engineered Plague (B)
1 Rest in Peace (W)

You have 6 blue cards in the 75 (of these, the Vensers are the only double-cost).
You have 5 white cards in the 75 (of these, 0 double-cost). *Note if you swap 1 Pulse -> 1 Vindicate you have 6 white.
You have 24 black cards in the 75 (of these, 0 double-cost).
You have 29 green cards in the 75 (of these, Primeval + Witness are double-cost).

Okay, so your deck is actually just GB with U and W splashes.

The Vensers aren't actually intended to be cast, I don't think -- they're more for Show and Tell you said, right? That reduces you to 3 Brainstorm + 1 Thassa for blue cards to consider. You also have the 4 DRS to help with the fixing.

Hmm.

How about something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

3 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

That's my first effort at this type of deck, but it's a good place to start discussion, I think.

At its core, your desired version seems to be basically an old-school style Rock deck. You want lots of flexible removal, some recursion, some hard-to-answer threats, and a lot of powerful hate for the things that you otherwise can't handle.

Let's break it down:

4 Veteran
4 DRS
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

The ramp core. DRS is industry-standard when you go over 3 colors and is a generically strong card. 1 Sakura-Tribe helps smooth things out for when you don't have access to a 'going-exploring' Explorer (Explorer + sac outlet), or when you don't want to set off an Explorer (ie Miracles).

2 Eternal Witness
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

The recursion engines. I personally like the 2nd Witness in removal-heavy decks, because Witness is the green Snapcaster Mage. We had it first, and we still do it better (because we can re-use our target indefinitely as long as we can keep triggering witness). Two-towers is a standard package for Primeval Titan control decks and is better than Recurring Nightmare here due to the lower creature count.

2 Batterskull
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

The wincons. I've professed my love of 2x Batterskull for a quite now and am still on that page. Thrag is...well...everyone in this thread knows what Thrag does to legacy decks. Sigarda is the ultimate wincon for the manacost. Primeval Titan is our lord and savior. All hail Primeval Titan.

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

The card advantage/selection. I've always liked the 3/2 Brainstorm/Top split in blue Nic Fits on principle. Zenith is standard issue. Nothing to see here.

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed

The disruption / removals. Council's Judgment is the defacto "best" removal spell in existence. It can't hit lands or multiples, but it can get rid of anything else, and the only real cost is the mana. But, come on. This is Nic Fit, and since when do we care that something costs 3? That's like, the bottom of our curve. Vindicate is for those problem lands -- I think that Judgment is actually better than Pulse, since the pulse effect is a corner-case at best and I'd rather have a wider answer than a more powerful one. Decay is strong vs Delver and Counterbalance, and I could see running the 4th in the board (I would run a 4th Decay before a 4th Deed for sure). Therapies, Deeds, we know these things.

[lands]

Manabase. We need these.

2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

Sorin and Kiora are the strongest planeswalkers against Miracles. With the widespread adaptation of Council's Judgment, this might not end up being the long-term best way for Junk builds to fight against Miracles, but I would still like these 2 slots to be specifically for Miracles, Jund, Junk, [blade], etc.

Everything else here is pretty self-explanatory, I think. I don't like Enlightened Tutor as much at the moment -- I'd rather have more copies of powerful multi-deck hate cards in general at the moment, and especially in a deck with Brainstorm, I'd rather just have more hosers rather than waste slots with tutors for fewer hosers.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Those are reasonable changes if you want to stay away from the double white costs, but I'm not actually convinced that you should. Like, I look at your deck, and it looks a lot more like a Rock (gbw control, specifically) variant which is splashing blue for Brainstorm and sideboard, than it does a BUG-splash-white list. Let's break down the original list:

4 Veteran Explorer (G)
4 Deathrite Shaman (g/b)
1 Scavenging Ooze (G)
1 Eternal Witness (GG)
1 Captain Sisay (GW)
1 Thragtusk (G)
1 Primeval Titan (GG)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (G)
3 Brainstorm (U)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (x)
1 Thassa, God of the Seas (U)
1 Diabolic Intent (B)
4 Cabal Therapy (B)
3 Pernicious Deed (GB)
3 Abrupt Decay (GB)
2 Golgari Charm (GB)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (GB)
///
1 Gaddock Teeg (GW)
2 Enlightened Tutor (W)
3 Surgical Extraction (B/2)
2 Engineered Explosives (x)
1 Pernicious Deed (GB)
2 Pithing Needle (x)
2 Venser, Shaper-Savant (UU)
1 Engineered Plague (B)
1 Rest in Peace (W)

You have 6 blue cards in the 75 (of these, the Vensers are the only double-cost).
You have 5 white cards in the 75 (of these, 0 double-cost). *Note if you swap 1 Pulse -> 1 Vindicate you have 6 white.
You have 24 black cards in the 75 (of these, 0 double-cost).
You have 29 green cards in the 75 (of these, Primeval + Witness are double-cost).

Okay, so your deck is actually just GB with U and W splashes.

The Vensers aren't actually intended to be cast, I don't think -- they're more for Show and Tell you said, right? That reduces you to 3 Brainstorm + 1 Thassa for blue cards to consider. You also have the 4 DRS to help with the fixing.

Hmm.

How about something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

3 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

That's my first effort at this type of deck, but it's a good place to start discussion, I think.

At its core, your desired version seems to be basically an old-school style Rock deck. You want lots of flexible removal, some recursion, some hard-to-answer threats, and a lot of powerful hate for the things that you otherwise can't handle.

Let's break it down:

4 Veteran
4 DRS
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

The ramp core. DRS is industry-standard when you go over 3 colors and is a generically strong card. 1 Sakura-Tribe helps smooth things out for when you don't have access to a 'going-exploring' Explorer (Explorer + sac outlet), or when you don't want to set off an Explorer (ie Miracles).

2 Eternal Witness
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

The recursion engines. I personally like the 2nd Witness in removal-heavy decks, because Witness is the green Snapcaster Mage. We had it first, and we still do it better (because we can re-use our target indefinitely as long as we can keep triggering witness). Two-towers is a standard package for Primeval Titan control decks and is better than Recurring Nightmare here due to the lower creature count.

2 Batterskull
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

The wincons. I've professed my love of 2x Batterskull for a quite now and am still on that page. Thrag is...well...everyone in this thread knows what Thrag does to legacy decks. Sigarda is the ultimate wincon for the manacost. Primeval Titan is our lord and savior. All hail Primeval Titan.

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

The card advantage/selection. I've always liked the 3/2 Brainstorm/Top split in blue Nic Fits on principle. Zenith is standard issue. Nothing to see here.

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed

The disruption / removals. Council's Judgment is the defacto "best" removal spell in existence. It can't hit lands or multiples, but it can get rid of anything else, and the only real cost is the mana. But, come on. This is Nic Fit, and since when do we care that something costs 3? That's like, the bottom of our curve. Vindicate is for those problem lands -- I think that Judgment is actually better than Pulse, since the pulse effect is a corner-case at best and I'd rather have a wider answer than a more powerful one. Decay is strong vs Delver and Counterbalance, and I could see running the 4th in the board (I would run a 4th Decay before a 4th Deed for sure). Therapies, Deeds, we know these things.

[lands]

Manabase. We need these.

2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

Sorin and Kiora are the strongest planeswalkers against Miracles. With the widespread adaptation of Council's Judgment, this might not end up being the long-term best way for Junk builds to fight against Miracles, but I would still like these 2 slots to be specifically for Miracles, Jund, Junk, [blade], etc.

Everything else here is pretty self-explanatory, I think. I don't like Enlightened Tutor as much at the moment -- I'd rather have more copies of powerful multi-deck hate cards in general at the moment, and especially in a deck with Brainstorm, I'd rather just have more hosers rather than waste slots with tutors for fewer hosers.

Alright ... taking a look at Council's Judgment again, I'm starting to like it a lot more than I initially did. Not because of TNN or Marit Lage, but because of it's potential to force a Batterskull or Top to save themselves without fizzling. (the jist is that since Judgment doesn't target and the voting happens upon resolution, they have to save the artifact in response to you casting the Judgment. However, if they do, you can literally nab any other nonland card of theirs).

Anyhow, I like your list: might tweak the sideboard a bit, and the main could be trimmed up as well, but overall it looks a lot better than my original list ^_^

[Megadeus]

Has anyone just said fuck it and played Rainbow Nic Fit?

[HoneyT]

Has anyone just said fuck it and played Rainbow Nic Fit?

Once or twice :wink:

[Arianrhod]

Has anyone just said fuck it and played Rainbow Nic Fit?

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Birds of Paradise

4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Athreos, God of the Passage
1 Eternal Witness

2 Restoration Angel
1 Academy Rector
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Obstinate Baloth

1 Acidic Slime
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Thragtusk
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1 Sun Titan
1 Progenitor Mimic

4 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Cabal Therapy

4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

//SB
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Notion Thief
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nether Void
2 Flusterstorm
3 Slaughter Games

------------

I played something akin to (worse than) this at a 40 duals event late last year or early this one....somewhere there's footage of me smashing Sneak and Show on camera with it. I still think it has potential, but I haven't had time to work on it lately.

[Megadeus]

Maybe it's because I've been drinking, but 5 color Nic fit sounds fucking sweet. Green Sun for Broodmate Dragon after casting Brainstorm. Or having the option of Green Sunning for Sigarda or Broodmate Dragon.

[Qweerios]

I compiled my results for the last weekly tournaments I attended in which I took two 1st place using Junk Pod:

2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
1-2 vs. BUG Pod
2-1 vs. Oops all Spells
2-1 vs. Punishing Jund

2-0 vs. Nic Fit
2-1 vs. Deathblade
2-0 vs. Team America

I used the same list I posted a few pages back with the same SB. I played 4 DRS, 3 Explorers, and no BoP. Sigarda (with and without Jitte) won almost every single game... Entomber Exarch saw some play but is still quite weak. I think I will replace him with either a 22nd land or the 4th explorer as I don't really need three 4-drops to gloom over my starting hand and both my 5-drops are accessible through GSZ.

[MeisterMitschl]

I know that he does not provide any immediate value when he enters or leaves the battlefield, but have you considered Thrun as the third 4-drop? Of course he overlaps with Sigarda in function and I believe her to be the best hexproof finisher GSZ can fetch, but Thrun fills a gap as a GSZ-able 4-drop. And he might be the second best equipment-carrier.

Also, I have been wondering if Sylvan Library might be a good card to consider in order to increase consistency. With your E-Tutor-board one copy might be sufficient?

[Arianrhod]

Reply@Konjester:

Sure thing. Let's see here...

Okay, so it's a Junk Pod build.

I'm going to go line-by-line and give thoughts as I go. Usually my deck critiques tend to be pretty stream-of-consciousness.

4 Vet - obv

3 DRS - I prefer 2 DRS in junk pod builds. 6 1-spots is usually sufficient since your 2-drops tend to be uninspiring and they're easy to Zenith up.

1 Ooze - yeah, he's a solid bullet to have.

1 Wall of Roots - I haven't actually thought about trying this guy, since I usually opt for things that put lands into play as opposed to just make mana. Sakura-Tribe Elder is my favorite of these options, but he doesn't synergize well with Pod. I'd say to give him a try, but keep an eye on him and be prepared to swap him out in the future if he underperforms.

1 Gaddock Teeg - staple hatebear. Probably maindeckable now with Miracles so huge, and you're west coast, which is usually somewhat combo-heavier. Just keep in mind that you can't deploy any Pods or additional GSZ once you have him in play, so he's kind of a double-edged sword.

1 Voice - I tried Voice and was profoundly unhappy with it. It just doesn't do anything in a format ruled by Swords to Plowshares. Like, in Modern, Bolt and Helix are still more common than Path is, but in Legacy, Swords is the end-all be-all for removal. Your whole deck is going to dump on RUG / BUG Delver anyway, so you don't even need Voice for against them (the only matchups where this guy might do anything). Cut this.

1 Kitchen Finks - yup. Pod staple in any format.

1 Eternal Witness - yup. Nic Fit staple.

1 Orzhov Pontiff - this is a meta call. I would 100% run him in the 76, but I'm not sure that the meta is correct for him to be maindeck right now. Basically you have to evaluate how many Elves and Death and Taxes you expect. You're favored enough vs Blade that you can wait to board him in for vs TNNs, and he's not going to do anything to Sneak, Storm (g1), Miracles, RUG/BUG/UWR Delver, etc. I would personally sideboard this guy.

1 Harmonic Sliver - meh. I would personally sideboard the Sliver and run another naturalize guy instead. Unfortunately the new Elf isn't out for another month. I'm always skeptical of Sliver in Pod decks because the potential exists to blow up your own Pod if they do some kind of trickery. Sliver is still a reasonable slot, but I'd just board it when you need it.

1 Murderous Redcap - this is the weakest of your 4-drops. The persist is obviously good, and it can always shoot a Deathrite or a Delver. That being said, I think that I would rather upgrade this slot to Wickerbough Elder, to replace the Sliver. More on that in a few.

1 Academy Rector - junk pod staple.

1 Restoration Angel - does all the things.

1 Thragtusk - ...yup.

1 Shriekmaw - pod staple.

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons - nic fit staple.

1 Grave Titan - I don't like this guy. Grave Titan just never really does anything. I like him in Reanimator, where I think he's tech. Here, though, you can do more powerful things with either of the other Titans, the Kamigawa dragons, or a few other options.

3 Pod, 3 Zenith - that's fine. I usually ran 4-2, but some of that is pilot discretion. An extra Zenith is a lot more useful than an extra Pod once the first Pod is in play. Either way, you want 6 total of this effect.

4 Decay - the full monte, eh. I can dig it. Delver of Secrets is the freest win in the format these days, so having the full grip of Decays to counter their full grip of Delvers is reasonable. Also good at picking off nuisance Counterbalances. I think that -ideally- I would opt for 3 Decay 1 Council's Judgment just to hedge a little bit, but I tend to prefer more diverse removal suites. Pilot discretion.

4 Therapy - duh

1 Diabolic Intent - I don't like this here. It's kind of counter-intuitive, but I haven't really liked Intent in Pod decks. You think, but why -- you have all of these creatures to sacrifice to it? The problem is that you would 9/10 rather sacrifice that same creature to Pod in almost any situation. You can Intent for a Pod, but then you lose out on things to actually do with that Pod once you've found it.

1 Pernicious Deed - Rector target.

1 Recurring Nightmare - Rector target.

I'll get to the manabase once the maindeck is shored up, since that'll affect the costs.

--------------------------

Here's what I would cut:

-1 DRS
-1 Voice
-1 Pontiff (to the board)
-1 Sliver (maybeboard)
-1 Redcap
-1 Grave Titan
-1 Intent

Here's what I would add:

+1 Stoneforge Mystic (Voice slot)
+1 Batterskull (Intent slot)

This is super free power. Being able to turn a Green Sun's Zenith / Veteran Explorer / DRS into a Batterskull via Pod is absolutely bonkers, and if you've been reading my posts, you know my thoughts on Batterskull in Nic Fit in general. The only reason not to run the 1-of SFM + Batterskull package would be availability. I'm going to write this message under the impression that availability is not an issue, though, and then we can adjust later if it is.

+1 Blade Splicer (DRS slot)

2 bodies for the price of one. Plays well with Nightmare and Restoration Angel, and applies a lot of pressure for its slot. Leaving behind a 3/3 while Podding is pretty potent.

+1 Knight of the Reliquary (Pontiff slot)

Helps tie together your manabase while providing a huge threat. Solid 3-drop. Kind of a non-bo-ish with Deathrite (yours and opposing), but the toolbox it adds is worth it -- especially the easy access to Karakas, which is critically important against Show and Tell and Reanimator.

+1 Kitchen Finks (Sliver slot)

Since we're not going to add the Thune combo, I'd like to see a 2nd Finks. It's strong with Pod and Therapy, provides good attrition against things like Liliana of the Veil, trades profitably with Monguise, and shores up Burn a bit (because there is always Burn).

+1 Wickerbough Elder (Redcap slot)

This gives you a GSZ-able 4-drop, which you were previously lacking. This guy's a bit better than Harmonic Sliver in a Pod deck, I think.

+1 Primeval Titan (Titan slot)

Primeval Titan is just over all much stronger than Grave Titan. This is primarily a nod to Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and friends. Consider if your Grave Titan gets StP'd by Miracles. You're left with a pair of 2/2s. If your Primeval Titan gets StP'd, though, you've assembled an engine which Miracles cannot interrupt since they play no wastelands -- all they have to screw with lands is a Blood Moon somewhere between main and side, and bringing in Blood Moon against Nic Fit is laughable.

------------------------------

That gives us this:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Roots
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Blade Splicer
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Restoration Angel
1x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan

3x Birthing Pod
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

+22 land

Let's set the manabase up like this:

3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

Industry-standard 7 basics. Smattering of duals to fetch for, 6 fetch is my usual for non 4x DRS.dec. Canopy acts as a 2nd Savannah while enabling KotR or PrimeTime to cantrip lategame. Volrath's is your backup recursion engine to Nightmare. All pretty standard stuff.

Normally I'm not a fan of Dryad Arbor in Nic Fit, but I have something specific in mind for this deck. Obviously turning a land into Nightmare fodder is value, and it has good synergy with Knight of the Reliquary, as well as enabling a t2 Pod via Zenith, but it does something else for us, too. Let's talk sideboard.

--------------------

The last time I played a Pod deck, the Pods were the focus of substantial hate. Like, people would bring in cards that they otherwise wouldn't bring in, just to shut Pod down. I decided that the next time I played Pod, I would sideboard Natural Order. So, let's start there:

3 Natural Order
1 Worldspine Wurm / Craterhoof Behemoth

This is another reason to run the Dryad Arbor.

I'm not sure which monster I want for the NOs. I'm skeptical about running Progenitus in a deck with no way to react to drawing it. I mean, I guess you can always NO for Primeval Titan, but I'd rather have a bigger monster to go with the package. There's advantages and disadvantages to each -- just go with what you think is correct, I'd say.

1 Orzhov Pontiff

As we said, this needs to be in the deck somewhere.

1 Nether Void

The best Rector target for against combo decks, bar none.

1 Umezawa's Jitte

Alternative Stoneforge target for some matchups; can let you play more aggressively with 1 creature threat in some matchups where this matters (see also: miracles).

1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide

I never leave home without 1 copy of this effect in my sideboard, and usually more. Solves Punishing Fire forever, strips Miracles of their win conditions, strips Show and Tell of their monsters, etc etc etc.

2 Thoughtseize

Extra spot discard is strong against basically any combo deck barring dredge.

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Agent of Erebos

A little extra graveyard hate. You should be okay with 2 DRS + 1 Scavenging Ooze and like a million ways to tutor them up, but a little more never hurt.

2 Ethersworn Canonist

Default storm/elves hate.

--------------------

Final list:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Roots
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Blade Splicer
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Restoration Angel
1x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan

3x Birthing Pod
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//sb
3 Natural Order
1 Worldspine Wurm / Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nether Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Agent of Erebos
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Hope that helps. If you have more questions (which I'm guessing you will), feel free to fire away =)

[Slag]

mind-boggling deconstruction and reconstruction

While you are dispensing wisdom, I've got a BUG non-pod nic fit list that I'm trying to shore up a little:



3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Kiora, The Crashing Wave
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 Starved Rusalka
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran explorer

And a bunch of lands including 2 creeping tar pit. The deck plays reasonably well, but I'm struggling with the brainstorm slot. It's nice and all, but I find myself wishing for a more permanent source of card-quality, namely Top. Furthermore, hands without cabal therapy tend to be a little slow. My inclination is to cut brainstorm for two top and two thoughtseize, but I need to keep my blue count fairly high for Force of Will out of the board, as there is a fair amount of combo that runs around my store. Any thoughts? I sometimes toy with the idea of squeezing in some Dimir Charms at the expense of Abrupt decay, before common sense prevails.

[Konjester]

Thank you so much, and, that actually sounds a lot more stable than my cureent setup. I forgot to put what I had fof a sideboard up, but again, you covered that part really great.

I do have a couple questions about the sb though... In the side I have now, I have:

tsunami & choke for control/combo

aegis of the gods, spirit of the labyrinth, & thrun the last troll for combo/control as well.

The sideboard you posted seems really good, I like the natural orders a lot, never would have thought to try those in this list. I guess my only question are, Do think one of these other creatures would be better in that 2nd canonist spot?
And, do you think Ill be okay without the island hate from the sideboard?

[Arianrhod]

While you are dispensing wisdom, I've got a BUG non-pod nic fit list that I'm trying to shore up a little:



3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Kiora, The Crashing Wave
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Eternal Witness
1 Starved Rusalka
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran explorer

And a bunch of lands including 2 creeping tar pit. The deck plays reasonably well, but I'm struggling with the brainstorm slot. It's nice and all, but I find myself wishing for a more permanent source of card-quality, namely Top. Furthermore, hands without cabal therapy tend to be a little slow. My inclination is to cut brainstorm for two top and two thoughtseize, but I need to keep my blue count fairly high for Force of Will out of the board, as there is a fair amount of combo that runs around my store. Any thoughts? I sometimes toy with the idea of squeezing in some Dimir Charms at the expense of Abrupt decay, before common sense prevails.

Sure =)

So, your creature suite is this:

4 Vet
3 DRS
1 Rusalka
1 E.Wit
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

That looks really anemic. Like, you have Thrag and PrimeTime as your power-hitters, but that's it. You aren't running any countermagic, so you have no way to protect them -- they're just going to eat removal (or Thrag'll get blocked by a moderately sized Goyf) and die.

-) Why Deathrite Shaman? What does that card do for you in this deck, aside from being generically good? Remember: Nic Fit is not "Junk." It's a synergy-based archetype which isn't centered around cramming as much goodstuff into one deck as humanly possible. Deathrite Shaman does two things for Nic Fit: it's good in Pod lists because it's the next-best 1-drop besides our signature guy + extra acceleration into t2 Pod, and it's good in 4- or 5-color versions which need the rainbow source to smooth out colors, as a sort of Birds++. I don't see what Deathrite Shaman does for you here, and I would cut it accordingly.

-) Rusalka does nothing for you. If you want a Zenithable sac outlet (which, only heavy Rector / Melira / spirit-based versions do), run Varolz instead. It costs 1 more mana, but is a 2/2 with regen which can make itself / other things into serious threats if you aren't running recursion.

-) Slime is actually fine, and will feed into my plans (more later).

4 Decay, 3 Deed, 4 Therapy, all fine. 4 Zenith is a little high for your current creature count, but we're going to do something about that. Brainstorm is rarely spectacular but is always reasonable. I'll talk some about Brainstorm in depth in a bit.

The first thing I want to get out of the way, though, is the Gitaxian Probes. Get rid of them.

Gitaxian Probe is a powerful card in decks which want to have fewer cards in them, because it's cantripping, "free," and gives information while 'thinning.' A deck with 4 Gitaxian Probes is a 56 card deck. This is insane in Storm, for example, because it gives them more ability to get to the cards that matter in their deck. In Nic Fit, though, the only thing it does is make your Therapies godly. This is a 2-card combo, though, and I know from my testing with Probe that Probe/Therapy rarely actually comes up in your opening hand. It feels kind of dirty when it does, but it's not worth dedicating 4 slots to. Besides, Probe is essentially a crutch for Therapy. With time and experience, you won't need Probe to have good Therapy snipes. We all must be interns before we can be surgeons.

Consider what those 4 slots will do. Would you rather have 4 semi-do-nothings, or 2 Jace TMS and 2 Glen Elendra Archmage?

Moving on.

Even for as high as I am on Kiora, I'd back her off to a 2-of. 3 is a little extreme.

Brainstorm in Nic Fit is an odd bird. It's usually good to have -some number- of Brainstorms, but we're not an auto-4-of deck. Since we're going to be adding a pair of Jace TMS, we don't need the full 4 Brainstorms, I'd shave to probably 2 copies, and add a Top as the "third Brainstorm." The Jaces will do most of the heavy lifting, as will something else...

----------

So what should we add:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Brainstorm

2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed

Here's what I'm maintaining of your original list. That's 26 cards.

My immediate gut reaction when I saw your list was: "wait, this is a BUG control list with 3 Kioras which is running 0 Baleful Strix???"

We can straight replace the Deathrites and Rusalka with 4 of those. That also ups your blue count, incidentally.

+4 Strix puts us to 30 cards. +2 Jace, TMS is 32, and the +1 Top is 33. Let's add a pair of Sakura-Tribe Elders to help accelerate to 4-mana, for 35. Next up, let's add a Future Sight. Future Sight is basically the ultimate blue card advantage bomb. An unchecked Future Sight basically wins you the game as soon as you untap with it. It's just a mise, but it's meant as a hedge in control mirrors more than anything, and you'll have time to draw into it there.

Progenitor Mimic makes 36. I like Mimic a whole lot more than I like Primeval Titan in this deck. You're not going to have the density to take advantage of the Two Towers, and while running a pair of Tar Pits is fine and all, they -do- hurt your manabase a bit. Zenith -> Primeval -> 2x Tar Pits is adorable, but you can do better things in BUG. Obviously Mimicking Strix, Witness, Slime, or Thrag is fine -- but don't forget that you can also Mimic your opponents' creatures. Spewing out a Goyf every upkeep is still perfectly reasonable.

That being said, we should have a couple of other abusive things for Mimic. I'd be comfortable with 22 land with this deck, so that means we have 2 slots left.

Let's use one of them as a Shriekmaw, since that's a flexible removal spell -and- an evasive creature which happens to be insane with Mimic. How about a 2nd Eternal Witness for the second slot?

That gives us this as a list:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Progenitor Mimic

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Brainstorm

1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight

Let's add lands:

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

If you're dead-set on the Tar Pits, that's fine -- just shave one of each fetch for a pair. I'd rather have the fetches here, though, with the Brainstorms, Jacestorms, Top, and Future Sight. You'll want to have the topdeck control.

I'll leave the sideboard up to you since I have no idea of the metagame you're preparing for. You have a 12-card blue count in the above list. Now, something like Future Sight will likely get boarded out vs decks you board FoW in for, so I'd advocate having a robust number of blue cards in your board. Something like 4 Force of Will, 2 Glen Elendra Archmage, 2 Venser, Shaper-Savant, 2 Flusterstorm would give more than adequate blue-card coverage while still covering a wide range of combos.

Hope that helps.

-----------Bonus list:

I'll re-iterate here my Cryptic BUG list, which was the conclusion that I came to when I attempted to build something similar a few weeks ago. I still haven't had time to test it yet, but if this direction tickles your fancy more than the one above, feel free to copy it down:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Cranial Extraction

[Arianrhod]

Thank you so much, and, that actually sounds a lot more stable than my cureent setup. I forgot to put what I had fof a sideboard up, but again, you covered that part really great.

I do have a couple questions about the sb though... In the side I have now, I have:

tsunami & choke for control/combo

aegis of the gods, spirit of the labyrinth, & thrun the last troll for combo/control as well.

The sideboard you posted seems really good, I like the natural orders a lot, never would have thought to try those in this list. I guess my only question are, Do think one of these other creatures would be better in that 2nd canonist spot?
And, do you think Ill be okay without the island hate from the sideboard?

If you'd rather relegate Canonist to a tutor target, I'd say Spirit of the Lab is probably your best bet for a second bullet.

That being said, keep in mind that all combo decks are aware of Canonist's power and run ways to kill it -- TES boards in Decays, as does Elves (+ a Viridian Shaman / Harmonic Sliver), etc. For myself, I would rather have a 2nd copy of Canonist because it both increases the chance that you'll draw it naturally (always better than having to jump through hoops tutoring it) and because then you'll have a backup copy for if/when they get rid of the first one.

Aegis of the Gods is awful because there are two scenarios where you would want it:

Either A: you're playing against Burn
or B: you're playing against Storm

A: they're just going to kill the Aegis and then you. You've spent 1W (or a creature + mana + life? via Pod) to counter 1 burn spell. Congratulations.
B: they're just going to bounce or kill the Aegis and then you. Alternatively, they could make 24 goblin tokens and just ignore the Aegis.

Thrun is a bad card for your deck. You have Sigarda, and Sigarda is better than everything. On her wings you will win games. Thrun just gets chumped by a $150 bill from now until someone mills out.

I used to run Tsunami and Choke, and I've thought on and off about trying to run them again -- but honestly, there's just better cards. Like, Tsunami and Choke are at their best when they are punishing slower blue decks (Miracles and Stoneblade in particular, can be relevant vs Delver sometimes, especially UWR). You have favorable matchups vs those decks already anyway. Well, Miracles is more of a toss-up, but they're very beatable. If you want to sideboard extra cards for vs Miracles, I would recommend a second Batterskull (probably in lieu of the Jitte) and maybe a couple of planeswalkers (Sorin and Elspeth [Knight-Errant -or- Sun's Champion] are legit). With your recursion, land engines, Sigarda, and creature density in general, though, you should be okay. Just don't overcommit into their sweepers, and remember that Gaddock Teeg is absolutely backbreaking for them. They -have- to have Swords or Council's Judgment (or their 1-of Karakas), otherwise they just lose to him.

[Konjester]

That makes sense.... I dont have a lot of experience in legacy, so, I was unaware.
Like, Natural Order from the sideboard... When should/would I bring that package in?
Really.... Sideboarding in legacy is pretty daunting in and of itself...

[Megadeus]

That makes sense.... I dont have a lot of experience in legacy, so, I was unaware.
Like, Natural Order from the sideboard... When should/would I bring that package in?
Really.... Sideboarding in legacy is pretty daunting in and of itself...

NO is good to bring in basically against decks that, if you resolve NO, they have no way to answer the Prog.

[Arianrhod]

NO is good to bring in basically against decks that, if you resolve NO, they have no way to answer the Prog.

It's a little different here since we aren't running Prog in his version. It's more intended as a backup-plan for if the opponent brings in a ton of Pod hate, OR for if you're against combo and you need a faster threat density (IFF you run Craterhoof over Worldspine), OR if you just want more threat density in general (ie, Punishing Jund or Deathblade).

I'll draw up a rough sideboard plan for common matchups for you sometime tomorrow when I have time.

[Blastoderm]

I compiled my results for the last weekly tournaments I attended in which I took two 1st place using Junk Pod:

2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
1-2 vs. BUG Pod
2-1 vs. Oops all Spells
2-1 vs. Punishing Jund

2-0 vs. Nic Fit
2-1 vs. Deathblade
2-0 vs. Team America

I used the same list I posted a few pages back with the same SB. I played 4 DRS, 3 Explorers, and no BoP. Sigarda (with and without Jitte) won almost every single game... Entomber Exarch saw some play but is still quite weak. I think I will replace him with either a 22nd land or the 4th explorer as I don't really need three 4-drops to gloom over my starting hand and both my 5-drops are accessible through GSZ.

woah woah woah! i got first in the four rounder you posted! ::tongue:

[Arianrhod]

Okay, here's how I would sideboard that junk pod list that I posted yesterday. Here's the list again, for reference:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Roots
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Blade Splicer
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Restoration Angel
1x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan

3x Birthing Pod
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//sb
3 Natural Order
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nether Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Agent of Erebos
2 Ethersworn Canonist

I'm going to assume that we opt for Craterhoof for the NO-monster. I think it's probably slightly better than Worldspine.

I'm going to cover Jund, Deathblade, Miracles, Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves, and BUG Delver. Note that most of the same logic can be applied to similar decks within the general family -- ie, you sideboard vs Junk as you would sideboard vs Jund; RUG Delver and UWR Delver as vs BUG Delver, etc.

Jund:

+3 Natural Order
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Cabal Therapy

The rationale:

Natural Order finds Sigarda. Sigarda is better than Jund's entire 75. There are also situations where having extra Primeval Titans is worth it. You don't board in the Hoof here because you are not the beatdown. 9/10 you're going to be the control role in this matchup. Jitte can take over a game and is a strong anti-fair option to board in, in general.

You shave out a Pod because you're bringing in the 3 NOs, and you don't want to be overloaded on expensive tutoring options. Teeg does nothing in this matchup except help your opponent. These matches usually come down to who topdecks better, and while Nic Fit is generally favored in that, I still like shaving out 2 Therapies here. You don't really need them -- Jund has no way of getting around Veteran Explorer without setting it off, and the discard isn't that important vs Jund. I'd rather have better topdecks.

Wickerbough stays in because Jund likes to sideboard in extra Sylvan Libraries to try to out-grind us.

Deathblade:

+3 Natural Order
+1 Craterhoof

-4 Abrupt Decay

I'm of the opinion that Decay doesn't do much in this matchup. Usually the game state will come down to your creatures vs their TNNs / their planeswalkers, and Decay doesn't do anything to that. There is an argument that says that you can Decay their equipment, but I would rather have the NOs and the Hoof than the ability to kill their Jitte and the Sword of Feast/Famine. Good Therapy usage will render this need moot anyway. You are the beatdown this matchup, which is going to be amusing because most deathblade players are going to try to out-beatdown you, and then get Hoofed.

Miracles:

+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+1 Natural Order
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

-4 Cabal Therapy

Miracles is a deck that is based entirely around topdecking, either with or without a Top in play. As such, you basically never want to draw a Therapy. In other versions I frequently sideboard out Veterans here as well, but this list has the sideboard Jitte, and Veteran is a good body to hold a Jitte. Basically your gameplan here is to run out a single threat, bolster it with equipment, and force them to react to it. Two threats is acceptable, in case they have Swords or Jace bounce, or some such -- but I would never go over 2 bodies in play unless you're purposefully trying to end the game as quickly as possible and damn the torpedoes.

Cranial/Memoricide can be used in two ways. You can either take their win conditions (Jace + Entreat) or you can take their protection (Terminus + Swords) and try to kidney punch them as hard as possible. I usually opt for the wincons, but there's something to be said for snapcalling Terminus with this deck. You have a lot of dangerous creatures, and if they can't derpsweep them away, things could get rough very quickly for them.

Storm:

+1 Nether Void
+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Canonist
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Natural Order
+1 Craterhoof
+1 Orzhov Pontiff
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

-1 Batterskull
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Sigarda
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Wickerbough Elder
-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Wall of Roots
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-4 Abrupt Decay

13/15 baby. Basically, you're transforming into an aggro deck. Decays are useless here, as is your top-end -- you'll never live to get it out, and you don't need to get it out to win anyway. Wall of Roots and KotR are both do-nothings here, and open some space lower in your curve. The gameplan is to disrupt them, maybe make a few hate bears, and NO for a lethal Hoof as quick as you can. Jitte replaces Batterskull. Skull isn't that great against Storm, but Jitte is surprisingly reasonable -- it allows you to neuter Empty the Warrens, and represents both a quick clock and the ability to gain a bunch of life and make Tendrils harder. Pontiff comes in to pump your team and kill the enemy quicker, while also offering Empty the Warrens protection.

Note that if you're against TES, call Burning Wish on your first Cranial, but if you're against ANT, call Tendrils.

Sneak:

+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Thoughtseize

-4 Abrupt Decay

We don't have much for this matchup, but I'm not convinced that we need a lot. We have a LOT of ways to get to Karakas, which is good, and we also have Teeg to shut down Sneak Attack (although they can Snow a Sneak). Shriekmaw kills Emrakul, and Wickerbough kills Sneak Attack. I mean, they can very easily go t1 Tomb Petal Show Griselbrand kill you, but that's the price we pay for not being a blue deck. Belcher happens. There'll also be games where they sit there and cantrip for 5 turns while we just make them dead.

I don't board the Natural Order / Hoof plan here because we neither need the extra tutor nor wish to expose ourselves to Force of Will/Spell Pierce/etc needlessly. Sneak runs a lot of countermagic, and we're going to be more worried about taking their combo pieces with discard than their protection. Better to do it the old-fashioned way here IMO.

Elves:

+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Canonist
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Orzhov Pontiff
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

-1 Batterskull
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Sigarda
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Wickerbough Elder
-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Wall of Roots
-1 Knight of the Reliquary

Pontiff and Jitte are gods. Everything else is just standard disruption to try to get one of those two things to happen. Decays are obviously insane here. We're more controlling in this matchup than we are against Storm, say, where we're balls to the walls aggressive. We're not going to out-hoof the hoof deck, so there's no point in burdening the deck with the NO plan. It could probably steal you a few games, but I'm inclined to believe that it isn't worth the slots.

BUG Delver:

+2 Natural Order

-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Wickerbough Elder

They might bring in a Library or two vs you, but that's what Deed is for. As with Jund, Delver decks have a very hard time beating Sigarda and Primeval Titan. Just be very careful when Ordering, because Delver decks play a lot of soft countermagic. Most of that will have probably been boarded out vs Nic Fit, but it's usually wise to still play around Daze and Spell Pierce anyway just in case. You -can- board in Jitte here if you really want to, but I don't find it worthwhile in this matchup. The biggest issue with Jitte here is that most of your cards are already really good against these decks. While Jitte is a fine card against Delver, it's not better than what you're already packing.

Hope that helps.

[Ish]

Ok, got some questions.

First great stuff Arianrhod.

Teeg: he's totally anti-synergistic with pod and zenith.

Anyone doing any testing with Archangel of Thune / Spike Feeder anymore?

What about thrun MB? No enter/dies effects but a reliable beater.


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[Arianrhod]

Ok, got some questions.

First great stuff Arianrhod.

Teeg: he's totally anti-synergistic with pod and zenith.

Anyone doing any testing with Archangel of Thune / Spike Feeder anymore?

What about thrun MB? No enter/dies effects but a reliable beater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Teeg is fine. You can always bounce/re-cast him with Karakas if you need to -- Pod is awful in multiples, so if you have 1 pod in play already you don't care about the others. If you played Teeg at all, he's probably hurting the enemy worse than he's hurting you.

I'll still be working on Thune/Feeder versions here soon -- this was just because I was asked my opinion on a deck for SCG Vegas and my reply was too large for a private message. I do think that there's a lot of strength in that Junk Pod list, though -- it's very no-frills and no-nonsense, which I do like. The Thune/Feeder versions are just a different style of deck, really. I'm actually moving tomorrow/this weekend, so I should be able to actually test and such again soon -- my cards have been boxed up and packed away for almost a month now =(((

Thrun's bad. He's a reliable beater that is worse than Sigarda in almost every conceivable way. If you're playing Punishing or some such and you don't have access to Sigarda, then sure - but he's a just a poor man's Sigarda. MAYBE if you were running a heavy SFM version with multiple Sword of X and Ys/Jitte/etc...but that's about the only reason I could think of to run a Thrun alongside Sigarda.

[Tom4ik]

I am still on the Fire version with 2 md Thoughtsieze. My last 4 weekly tournaments have gone :

2-0 Cephalid Breakfast
2-1 ANT
1-1 DnT
2-1 Dredge
--------------
0-2 SnS
2-0 Dredge
2-0 enchantress (stax)
1-2 enchantress (combo)
---------------
2-0 Dredge
1-1 SnS (went to turns, needed 1 more to win)
2-1 Shardless
1-1 Lands
---------------
2-0 Rug delver
2-0 Dredge (non-dread return version)
2-1 oops
1-1 Uw Blade

Waaaaayy to much combo match ups for me lately, especially dredge. 4 weeks in a row...Wtf! Our weekly gets about 25-30 ppl so not sure why so much of that deck but 4-0 against it.

[Ralf]

Sure =)

I'll re-iterate here my Cryptic BUG list, which was the conclusion that I came to when I attempted to build something similar a few weeks ago. I still haven't had time to test it yet, but if this direction tickles your fancy more than the one above, feel free to copy it down:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Cranial Extraction

Better mana base than the previous one.
As promised, I tested it a bit last week against several Delver.decks.

Punchlines:
- 1) Not enough "black" color. I got stomped by delver.deck many times because I could not cast AD, Deed, therapy. You seem to have fixed this issue in your most updated list (So did I last week :D)

-2) Deck feels even slower than my punishing Vraska and I was playing at a decent pace... In sanctioned events, I can see having some issues to finish them-off in due time, even if ultimately, I have the board control.

-3) Finally, while powerful, the witness-cryptic combo is certainly what slowed games down. If the board state is in their favor, you keep blocking with witness to bounce it back and draw a card, looking for drawing into a true removal for their goyf or whatever.

-4) Anyway, I have yet to kill with Kiora and I did enjoy playing this version (might be the "blue" thing)

-5) True story: no life gain MD is a pain...

Take this with a grain of salt as I only tested it against delver.deck

I'll keep you posted after several more tests to come.

Cheers,

[Ralf]

I am still on the Fire version with 2 md Thoughtsieze. My last 4 weekly tournaments have gone :

2-0 Cephalid Breakfast
2-1 ANT
1-1 DnT
2-1 Dredge
--------------
0-2 SnS
2-0 Dredge
2-0 enchantress (stax)
1-2 enchantress (combo)
---------------
2-0 Dredge
1-1 SnS (went to turns, needed 1 more to win)
2-1 Shardless
1-1 Lands
---------------
2-0 Rug delver
2-0 Dredge (non-dread return version)
2-1 oops
1-1 Uw Blade

Waaaaayy to much combo match ups for me lately, especially dredge. 4 weeks in a row...Wtf! Our weekly gets about 25-30 ppl so not sure why so much of that deck but 4-0 against it.

Not a very big surprise here. With "n" DRS and maybe 1 Ooze MD, dredge will always have a hard time against Punishing Fit.
I'm surprised by your draw against D&T ? Maybe you could give us a more detailed story ?
SnS is a bitch, no matter what.
Enchantress could be a pain and I am always struggling to find the perfect tempo to blow a deed and prevent them from recovering before I kill them.
Finally, congratz for such BIG figures, I am really impressed by your result against storm/oops, I guess the added 2 TS MD were the thing ?

[Tom4ik]

@Ralf-
-I actually do not run any DRS. 1 ooze md and 2 surgicals and 2 slaughter games post.
-As for the DnT if i remember the game 1 was long as i got waste/port to keep me off of anything relevant but i wasnt getting killed so i kept playing. game 2 i crushed and didnt have time to finish 3rd. it is odd to lose to DnT but if i remember it was a 2 lander in game 1 so took me too long to actually get smth going.
- Game 1 SnT is miserable but post board its actually not too bad. i run 2 more duress in board as well as the rebs and exile effects and so it can actually be hard for them to build up a hand that wins. expecially as liliana actually provides another avenue of cutting them off. i beat turn 2 emrakul off of show. he had turn 2 show in em, me i had land vet. i put a land into play. next turn i cabal which he lets resolve and i say force leaving him with i think a pierce. drop lily.
- the combo enchantress deck ran the 3 mana white enchantment that when you destory a perm of theirs they can do it to you. it was a real tough card for me to pay around and one of the other games i had to mull to 4 but i still think enchantress is a pretty favorable deck. both versions.
- I think while this deck is never going to be a combo killer i think post board it is very underrated. slaughter games is amazing, and for me i get 8 1 mana discard plus 3 lily which can be hard for decks like storm or oops to build up enough of a hand to go off out of. the rebs, surgicals and like also make it so they have a lot to fight through so while game 1s are pretty bad 2/3 can be good.

[benofzongo]

Tom4ik, what does your Punishing Fit list look like? That's what I run as well, so I'm curious what other people have going on with that these days.

[Ralf]

@Ralf-
-I actually do not run any DRS. 1 ooze md and 2 surgicals and 2 slaughter games post.
-As for the DnT if i remember the game 1 was long as i got waste/port to keep me off of anything relevant but i wasnt getting killed so i kept playing. game 2 i crushed and didnt have time to finish 3rd. it is odd to lose to DnT but if i remember it was a 2 lander in game 1 so took me too long to actually get smth going.
- Game 1 SnT is miserable but post board its actually not too bad. i run 2 more duress in board as well as the rebs and exile effects and so it can actually be hard for them to build up a hand that wins. expecially as liliana actually provides another avenue of cutting them off. i beat turn 2 emrakul off of show. he had turn 2 show in em, me i had land vet. i put a land into play. next turn i cabal which he lets resolve and i say force leaving him with i think a pierce. drop lily.
- the combo enchantress deck ran the 3 mana white enchantment that when you destory a perm of theirs they can do it to you. it was a real tough card for me to pay around and one of the other games i had to mull to 4 but i still think enchantress is a pretty favorable deck. both versions.
- I think while this deck is never going to be a combo killer i think post board it is very underrated. slaughter games is amazing, and for me i get 8 1 mana discard plus 3 lily which can be hard for decks like storm or oops to build up enough of a hand to go off out of. the rebs, surgicals and like also make it so they have a lot to fight through so while game 1s are pretty bad 2/3 can be good.

- I get what you mean as with Scapeshift (1 Ooze MD, no DRS) I'm like 8-1 against dredge in sanctioned events.
- OK against D&T, that makes sense.
- Enchantress is kind of fifty/fifty. If you don't get to see a quick Deed you lose (the "quick" thing depends on your ability to snipe or not their draw engine -> do you get your discard going/AD or are you screwed by an early leyline of sanctity)
- Having 8- 1 cmc - discard + 3 lily is sure great against a lot of combo.deck until you meet combo.deck packing 4 leyline of sanctity in SB. But it is rather linked to your meta !

Are you on the "Protect the Troll" bandwagon with your punish list ?

[Tom4ik]

@benofzongo
List is:

4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtsieze
2 gitaxian probe

4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
3 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 liliana of the veil
1 garruk, primal hunter

My land base is the normal 6 fetches, 4 groves, 4 duals, 6 basics and tower and wolf run.
My SB is very skewed to meta but here it is:

2 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 surgical extraction
2 slaughter games
2 golgari charm
2 blood moon
3 red elemental blast


The reason for probe is not so much to 'crutch' the therapy hits but more there because with this version of the deck I love being able to see the hand to help decide on how I want to sculpt the game. I don't want more discard but probe fills that niche. I have tried it in the last 2 weeklies and i am still undecided. What I like is that in my opening hand it allows me to make the best choice in spell sequencing. What I dont like is that it makes those hands less stable as you do not know what that new card is.

It kind of ties back into my thinking that the way I play this deck is not as a tool-box style where I want tons of different cards but that I want a certain subset of cards every game. Liliana + Fire, Deed, and a big guy/green sun is what your looking for. I have already considered cutting Ooze (I have seen way too much graveyard based combo though) and/or Huntmaster but he has dominated games as well.

@Ralf
-about the leyline, yea I agree. Leyline screws me pretty hard for a lot of my hate. I do usually trim decay/deed for golgari charm as that does hit a few relevant enchantments in some combo games (or against some decks stops the empty plan). Also, if they have to mull to oblivion looking for leyline that buys time for the exile effects anyway

- I am ideally on the crash with the Troll plan, but with the wolfrun it usually doesnt matter any creature will do when you have the ability to +5 it.I get more scoops to boardstate without a threat then actually needing to play it out actually.

[pfiremc13]

Final list:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Roots
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Blade Splicer
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Restoration Angel
1x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan

3x Birthing Pod
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//sb
3 Natural Order
1 Worldspine Wurm / Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nether Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Agent of Erebos
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Hope that helps. If you have more questions (which I'm guessing you will), feel free to fire away =)

Why is there no top in this list? In my junk pod I have been very reliant on topdecks and top helps quite a bit.

[Bobmans]

Is there anyone that has tried creating a Jund POD list (with or without Punishing Fire package)?
I have been reading back thru the thread, but was unable to find anything (useful). Also i have looked thru a large amount of G/B/R creatures and some of them where cute, but not to exiting (yet).

[Tom4ik]

I do not think that red does much for a pod deck. Both blue or white add much more to the pod game plan as well as better side board options. What red creatures were you thinking of specifically?

[Bobmans]

So far i found these to be of some interest, but it's not groundbreaking material. I was exploring the idea of a Jund POD version because i enjoy playing my Punishing Nic Fit list and thought maybe i could find something to give it an edge. But like you said, both Blue and White offer the better options (so far).

As i said, i enjoy playing PFire Nic Fit, but i was exploring towards another Nic Fit list. I have been puzzeling between 4c RectorStrix, Junk pod and bug pod. Can't make up my mind. I would love to see both planeswalkers and a combo finish in the list...


Inferno Titan
Flametongue Kavu
Olivia Voldaren
Huntmaster of the Fells
Mogis, God of Slaughter
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Anathemancer
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Xenagos, God of Revels
Master of Cruelties
Zealous Conscripts
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Sire of Insanity
Mindclaw Shaman

[whatwas]

Is there someone who been playing the BUG walkers version of nic fit? Been slowly putting my list together. Haven't got many games in on it though. Here's my take

2 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 baleful strix

4 jace, the mind sculptor
3 liliana of the veil
2 karn liberated

4 pernicious deed

4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
4 gitaxian probe
4 innocent blood
3 hymn to tourach
2 green Sun zenith
1 ponder

2 island
2 forest
3 swamp
2 tropical island
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs

I like having GSZ since I'd rather draw them then the second explorer and because I run a little more creatures and the other walkers list.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

[Bobmans]

I am still thinking about a Jund POD list and did seem to find some cool ability's and am coming closer to a possible creature package. It is still very rough, but i have broken it down into CMC and for the "unknown" creatures have given very short explanation. I do think that Purphoros, God of the Forge is the best option in this deck where he has synergy with Pod, persist and token generators. So even playing Garruk, Primal Hunter with this one is an option.
So what are your thoughts on further breaking down the creature package to a small strong package?


CMC 0:
Dryad Arbor

CMC 1:
Deathrite Shaman

Dragonmaster Outcast
(has to survive...)

Vexing Devil
(pressure, but dies to easy. And will mostly be unusable for Pod)

Flamekin Harbinger
(digs up the evoke creatures)

Norin the Wary
(synergy with Purphoros, God of the Forge)

CMC 2:
Mogg War Marshal
(Generates tokens, synergy with Purphoros, God of the Forge)

Young Pyromancer
(Generates tokens, synergy with Punishing Fire and Purphoros, God of the Forge)

Wall of Blossoms
(Pod fodder)

Wall of Roots
(Pod fodder)

Scavenging Ooze

CMC 3:
Anathemancer
(Possible finisher or just pressure. At least it is Pod fodder)

Kitchen Finks

Eternal Witness

Tuktuk the Explorer
(Pod fodder which gets a 5/5 token)

Goblin Sharpshooter
(Can shoot down an army of x/1's)

CMC 4:
Mogis, God of Slaughter
(sort of The Abyss, but gives a choice. Which will always be the less good one for us. Indistructible and builds pressure)

Purphoros, God of the Forge
(with Pod, persist and tokens can deal big amounts of damage, Indistructible and builds pressure)

Huntmaster of the Fells
(An allstar, has ETB life gain and token generation. When transforms deals damage or more lifegain and a token.

Wickerbough Elder

Murderous Redcap
(persist, direct damage)

Anger
(When he is in the graveyard he gives Haste to everything. But is easely removed by DRS or graveyard hate).

CMC 5:
Mindclaw Shaman
(Steal an instant or sorcery for free from your opponents hand seems cute/awesome)

Zealous Conscripts
(Steal a creature for one turn. Like an Emrukal of an SnT, but do that trick in your own turn...)

Shriekmaw
Ingot Chewer

Thunderblust
(Persist, pressure)

Acidic Slime

Thragtusk


CMC 6:
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
(Storms just has to scoop)

Sire of Insanity
(Near instant win end-of-turn?)

[Arianrhod]

I've long theorized the potential of a Jund Pod list -- never actually put the work into creating one, though.

I see no reason why the core pod chain wouldn't be Redcap -> Conscripts untap Pod -> Kiki-Jiki go infinite.

Flame-tongue Kavu is still good enough, imo. 3-spot gives you Sprouting Thrinax, which I think is better than Tuktuk -- both are likely worse than Finks, though. Olivia is worth considering at 4, but I think that you'll find that for Jund-colored decks, the 4-spot is actually super clogged.

Xenagod is not good enough, sadly. Thundermaw is, though.

2-spot you'd likely want to consider Putrid Leech as a solid offensive and defensive ground-pounder.

Just some random thoughts -- I don't have time to go deep on this thought right now, but I do agree that Jund has its own unique tools and advantages over Junk and Bug (not the least of which is the ability to run Slaughter Games out of the board).

[Bobmans]

I've long theorized the potential of a Jund Pod list -- never actually put the work into creating one, though.

I see no reason why the core pod chain wouldn't be Redcap -> Conscripts untap Pod -> Kiki-Jiki go infinite.

Flame-tongue Kavu is still good enough, imo. 3-spot gives you Sprouting Thrinax, which I think is better than Tuktuk -- both are likely worse than Finks, though. Olivia is worth considering at 4, but I think that you'll find that for Jund-colored decks, the 4-spot is actually super clogged.

Xenagod is not good enough, sadly. Thundermaw is, though.

2-spot you'd likely want to consider Putrid Leech as a solid offensive and defensive ground-pounder.

Just some random thoughts -- I don't have time to go deep on this thought right now, but I do agree that Jund has its own unique tools and advantages over Junk and Bug (not the least of which is the ability to run Slaughter Games out of the board).

Nice catch with the Zealous Conscripts and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo. I suppose these would be at the end of the pod chain, meaning we have some space to go just a little lighter on the creature package and get some spells in return.

When Reclemation Sage (or whatever) comes out there would be a good CMC 3. I think that Sprouting Thrinax is strong in conjunction to Purphoros, God of the Forge. But for the latter the entire list has to be build around this tactic to make it work (i guess).

For a CMC 1 i have found: Goblin Arsonist which serves as both POD fodder and can deal with a lot of early threats like a Delver.

For CMC 2:
Vexing Shusher (altough i don't want this a POD fodder, but when you get POD online its not that necessary anymore)

Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Roots
Ravenous Rats
Black Cat


For CMC 3:
Goblin Sharpshooter Goblins, elves, Empty the Warren or w/e swarms. And he can be used as fodder once dealt with the swarm.
Dragon Egg flying token.
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks

CMC 4:

Mogis, God of Slaughter Might just be cute, but he looks scary to me.
Wickerbough Elder Will be replaced ones Reclemation Sage comes out.
Murderous Redcap
Flametongue Kavu

There where some other option, but theres soo many cards to dig thru...

EDIT: Fleshbag Marauder can also be very useful

EDIT 2: incoorperate the Melira, Sylvok Outcast combo.

Murderous Redcap
Thermopod
Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Scorched Rusalka
Aerie Ouphes

[Arianrhod]

I would look to include some number of these:

Veteran
DRS
E.Wit
Finks
Redcap
Nekrataal
FTK
Conscripts
Kiki-Jiki
Thragtusk
Primeval Titan
Sire of Insanity

Bolt
Decay
Therapy
GSZ
Pod

The 2-spot is probably the weakest for Jund -- Junk gets Stoneforge and BUG gets Baleful Strix.

Something that I noticed while assembling the rough list is that a lot of these creatures double as creature control. That suggests that we could run fewer actual removal spells in this deck (perhaps just 4 Bolts, say), and just really double up on the creatures and creature tutors.

Note that you don't want to run cards that are bad without Pod, Bobmans -- something like Black Cat is just bad, as is Dragon Egg. Synergy is good, but you don't want to force it. You don't want to NEED a Pod for your deck to function reasonably.

[Bobmans]

Cool, maybe we could just get a solid efficient JUND POD package.


I would look to include some number of these:

Same here, but most of them already make sense. 4 Vet, 2/3 DRS, 3POD, 1GSZ, (1Recurring Nightmare), some spells and a bunch of lands.
The hard part is to figure out a solid POD package.



Thragtusk
Primeval Titan
Sire of Insanity

I don't think i would ever want to go dig for these if i could just go redcap > conscipts > Kiki-jiki > win. If i can't win that route then i would like to see a solution that costs me CMC 3 =<.



The 2-spot is probably the weakest for Jund -- Junk gets Stoneforge and BUG gets Baleful Strix.

Bobmans -- something like Black Cat is just bad, as is Dragon Egg. Synergy is good, but you don't want to force it. You don't want to NEED a Pod for your deck to function reasonably.

You are absolutely right. Then why not just include Tarmogoyf for CMC 2 slots. Just joking. I don't see any powerhouse in that slot for any of the JUND colors. Or are we missing something.



Something that I noticed while assembling the rough list is that a lot of these creatures double as creature control. That suggests that we could run fewer actual removal spells in this deck (perhaps just 4 Bolts, say), and just really double up on the creatures and creature tutors.


i was thinking of 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 3 Punishing Fire. Along with a combination of Decay, Deeds, maybe Thoughtseize. Offc REB's and Slaughtergames in the SB.

[GtF]

Cool, maybe we could just get a solid efficient JUND POD package.



Same here, but most of them already make sense. 4 Vet, 2/3 DRS, 3POD, 1GSZ, (1Recurring Nightmare), some spells and a bunch of lands.
The hard part is to figure out a solid POD package.



I don't think i would ever want to go dig for these if i could just go redcap > conscipts > Kiki-jiki > win. If i can't win that route then i would like to see a solution that costs me CMC 3 =<.



You are absolutely right. Then why not just include Tarmogoyf for CMC 2 slots. Just joking. I don't see any powerhouse in that slot for any of the JUND colors. Or are we missing something.



i was thinking of 4 Grove of the Burnwillows and 3 Punishing Fire. Along with a combination of Decay, Deeds, maybe Thoughtseize. Offc REB's and Slaughtergames in the SB.

The ability to run punishing fire engine and a 2 card kill that kills the same turn (since conscripts untaps pod to get kiki...I suppose you need 2 4 drops to sac or a redcap as well) is pretty appealing. But yeah, the lack of good 2 drops is an issue. Maybe Brindle Shoat is good enough? Even if you get a 3/3 every time, it's still not as good as drawing a card or getting a broken equipment though.
After searching gatherer, here's a list of possible 2 drops (I was being pretty generous with some of these)
Wall of blossoms
Scavenging ooze
Bloodghast
Mogg War Marshall
Stingscourger
Sylvan Ranger
Abyssal Gatekeeper
Brindle Shoat
Butcher Ghoul/Safehold Elite/Strangleroot Geist (same idea)
Golgari Thug

[Bobmans]

Wall of blossoms
Scavenging ooze
Bloodghast
Mogg War Marshal
Stingscourger
Sylvan Ranger
Abyssal Gatekeeper
Brindle Shoat
Butcher Ghoul
Safehold Elite
Strangleroot Geist
Golgari Thug


Strangleroot Geist looks scary, as does Bloodghast.

Scavenging Ooze should be on the list regardless. Both Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots are nice, but those cant beat Strix or DRS (if the list runs 0 GS).

Young Pyromancer was also on my list, along with P.Fire it can produce some amount of tokens. But it has more synergy with a active Purphoros, God of the Forge

I think for CMC4 creatures there are solid choices FTK, Nekrataal, Mogis, Huntmaster, REDCAP, Wickerbough.

We just have to keep looking.

[Arianrhod]

Primeval might not end up being necessary, but don't underestimate the power of Primeval grabbing Wolf Run in a pod a deck. Kiki/Conscripts is pretty fragile as infinite combos go -- it doesn't lose to sorceries and it doesn't lose to Decay, but it still eats it to Bolt and Swords. Also, there will be times where you'll use one or the other card beforehand, etc.

Sire is linked to another Conscripts chain. You can go 4-drop -> Conscripts (untap pod) -> Sire in one turn (by podding away the Conscripts). That seems pretty backbreaking against a lot of decks, and it gives the deck a reasonable shot against combo.dec. Well, reasonable might be pushing it, but if you can somehow survive to Sire through discard/their inconsistencies/something else we put in, Sire WILL seal the game off 98% of the time.

I'm not sold on Grove/PFire in this deck. I think I'd rather have better mana and higher-quality removal.

There should 100% be a Scavenging Ooze at the 2-spot, but we'd need like 4-5 more 2-drops to have a good curve. Part of me thinks that we could just stock up on lifegain ETB creatures (extra copies of Finks, Obstinate Baloth, etc) and run Bob -- with Tops it might be okay. It's probably still too masochistic, though.

[GtF]

Strangleroot Geist looks scary, as does Bloodghast.

Scavenging Ooze should be on the list regardless. Both Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots are nice, but those can beat Strix or DRS (if the list runs 0 GS).

Young Pyromancer was also on my list, along with P.Fire it can produce some amount of tokens. But it has more synergy with a active Purphoros, God of the Forge

I think for CMC4 creatures there are solid choices FTK, Nekrataal, Mogis, Huntmaster, REDCAP, Wickerbough.

We just have to keep looking.

I wasn't considering Young Pyromancer since there aren't a lot of spells in the deck, but the interaction with punishing fire seems powerful. I would assume the deck would run 4 GSZ, so with that 4 therapy and 4 p fires, maybe a couple abrupt decays, maybe it is enough.

When you say scary I'm not sure if you mean scary as in good or scary as in hard to cast because of the double colored mana costs.

I wonder if a Goblin Bombardment or two wouldn't be bad in this deck, as a lot of the cards seem to push towards token generation. At that point I am not sure if it isn't better to just cut birthing pod and turn this into a zombies type list. I think I have to switch threads here.

[Bobmans]

Keeping the bord clear (or at least in check) with PFire and dropping a Sire sounds solid. Also being able to recur PFire after Sire hits the board will ensure a win even more.

[Bobmans]

I wasn't considering Young Pyromancer since there aren't a lot of spells in the deck, but the interaction with punishing fire seems powerful. I would assume the deck would run 4 GSZ, so with that 4 therapy and 4 p fires, maybe a couple abrupt decays, maybe it is enough.

When you say scary I'm not sure if you mean scary as in good or scary as in hard to cast because of the double colored mana costs.

I wonder if a Goblin Bombardment or two wouldn't be bad in this deck, as a lot of the cards seem to push towards token generation. At that point I am not sure if it isn't better to just cut birthing pod and turn this into a zombies type list. I think I have to switch threads here.

I meant scary in a good way.

I don't think there would be enough room for PFire, 4x GSZ, and POD (and the rest).

While i was looking for the same effects as Goblin Bombardement provides i think Purphoros, God of the Forge is the better option since you can fetch it with POD.

I am currently digging thru the around 700 CMC2 creatures in the Jund colors, but nothing good so far.

Eidolon of the Great Revel is a nice card vs storm

[Bobmans]

I've been digging thru the tormenting list of cmc 2 jund coloured crap and found nothing groundbreaking. There are creatures with narrow application. Heres the list. But as i said, nothing special.


Scryb Ranger This might have a little more appliction. It blocks and kills Delver, is immune to Jace, can protect Forest duals against Wasteland, might work with a landfall ability, gives Kiki-jiki second use in a turn and with Dryad Arbor it can fuel Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Sparkmage Apprentice
Nezumi Shortfang
Perilous Myr
Ember Hauler
Epochrasite
Fauna Shaman
Flinthoof Boar
Jund Hackblade
Juvenile Gloomwidow
Keldon Marauders
Nacatl Outlander
Phyrexian Revoker
Riftsweeper
Satyr Firedancer
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave
Skylasher
Slavering Nulls
Sootstoke Kindler
Spellskite
Stigma Lasher
Stingscourger
Storm Entity
Thunderscape Familiar
Vampire Hexmage
Vinelasher Kudzu
Yixlid Jailer

[Zupponn]

Augur of Skulls could be a useful utility target as well.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I've started playing BUG pod on mtgo. So far I feel the biggest weakness of the deck is in the 2-drop slot. I was thinking of a couple different solutions, more strix, wall of roots, maybe another scavenging ooze or two. I was also thinking about trying out Melira with a carrion feeder. Even without going infinite as the main plan, having Finks and Glen Elendra that persist indefinitely until swords/terminus seems pretty good.

This is also my first iteration of Pod in any format so any suggestions/criticisms on the creature base or the overall list itself is welcome.

Creatures: 23
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

1 Phantasmal Image
1 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator

2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Wickerbough Eldar
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw

1 Primeval Titan
1 Progenitor Mimic

Instants/Sorcs: 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Other: 5
3 Birthing Pod
2 Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalker: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Undergound Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yxiled Jailer
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Aetherling
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Engineered Plague

[Bobmans]

chaos;819671']I've started playing BUG pod on mtgo. So far I feel the biggest weakness of the deck is in the 2-drop slot. I was thinking of a couple different solutions, more strix, wall of roots, maybe another scavenging ooze or two. I was also thinking about trying out Melira with a carrion feeder. Even without going infinite as the main plan, having Finks and Glen Elendra that persist indefinitely until swords/terminus seems pretty good.

This is also my first iteration of Pod in any format so any suggestions/criticisms on the creature base or the overall list itself is welcome.

list

Towards the Melira combo: i suspect that it is to fragile to setup (like Arianrhod said about the Jund Kiki-jiki/Conscripts combo) and that both Melira and carrion feeder are not helping you towards a win on their own. BUT if you where to try it, then find space for a murderous redcap.

As for your list i would suggest:

+2 Baleful Strix
+1 Fleshbag Marauder
+1 Murderous Redcap
+1 Aetherling
+3 Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deed

-1 Recurring Nightmare
-3 Green sun's Zenith
-1 Trygon Predator
-1 Glen Elendra Archmage
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Progenitor Mimic


(M15: -1 Wickerbough Elder, +1 Reclemation Sage)

Hope it helps

[Arianrhod]

I'd opt for either Progenitor or Primeval. Consecrated Sphinx is also an option. Choosing a 6-drop is probably one of the hardest things about playing Nic Fit. You can't have more than 2, and usually 1 is correct. But, there's a lot of very strong options at 6-spot that compete for attention.

Agreed on needing more Strixes. I wouldn't play BUG with less than 4. Card is just insane.

Melira is adorable, but unnecessary.

-------------

A thought I had:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wood Elves
3 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Ob-Nixilis, the Fallen

4 Crack the Earth
4 Warp World

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Aggressive Mining

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower

Note that this is like, super-mega rough. But I was mulling over how / if it would be possible to use Aggressive Mining the other day, and I decided that it should be possible in a very ramp-heavy version. Turning lategame Veterans, Wood Elves, etc into card advantage seems powerful. Since we're mega-ramping, we can potentially get away with Warp World, which synergizes with everything that the deck is trying to do.

Birds over Deathrites because I want that slot to be guaranteed mana production, whereas DRS is chancy. It might be that those 4 Birds should just be some Titans to add in a bit more top-end, since right now the creature curve stops at SGC and Ob-Nix, which, while reasonable, aren't Primeval / Inferno Titan.

No Therapy because no fetchlands makes the early black source chancy -- this is much more of a Crack the Earth deck.

Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.

There's probably something functional here somewhere, if we wanted to work on it.

EDIT: This all syenrgizes really well with Defense of the Heart, too.

[eq.firemind]

Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.
Can't check from work, but there was a change in rules about this.
I guess currently the owner is one under whose control a permanent enters the battlefield.

[Arianrhod]

Can't check from work, but there was a change in rules about this.
I guess currently the owner is one under whose control a permanent enters the battlefield.

Well that's lame. =(

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Towards the Melira combo: i suspect that it is to fragile to setup (like Arianrhod said about the Jund Kiki-jiki/Conscripts combo) and that both Melira and carrion feeder are not helping you towards a win on their own. BUT if you where to try it, then find space for a murderous redcap.

As for your list i would suggest:

+2 Baleful Strix
+1 Fleshbag Marauder
+1 Murderous Redcap
+1 Aetherling
+3 Abrupt Decay/Pernicious Deed

-1 Recurring Nightmare
-3 Green sun's Zenith
-1 Trygon Predator
-1 Glen Elendra Archmage
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Progenitor Mimic


(M15: -1 Wickerbough Elder, +1 Reclemation Sage)

Hope it helps

Thanks for the suggestions! Why cut so many GSZ though? As I've been playing with the deck that feels like the most powerful card overall even if pod or recurring nightmare get insane with a few creatures on the field.

Creatures: 24
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw

1 Consecrated Sphinx

Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Other: 6
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalker: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Undergound Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yxiled Jailer
1 Wickerbough Eldar
1 Kitchen Finks

This is the list I'm going to probably try when I get home tonight. Is a 6 drop completely necessary? I was very underwhelmed by both mimic and titan. I can definitely see Prime time being insane in the Jund version and pretty good in anything that's not BUG, but not being able to get wolf run really hurts it. Sphinx seems like it would be best at creating an advantage that can't be given up, but just thinking about it seems win more. Is there a more defensive 6 drop that's out there? I browsed through a bunch in blue, black, and green and didn't find anything that really jumped out at me as insane except for the titans, sphinx, and maybe the landfall guy that makes 4/4s.

[Bobmans]

chaos;819876']Thanks for the suggestions! Why cut so many GSZ though? As I've been playing with the deck that feels like the most powerful card overall even if pod or recurring nightmare get insane with a few creatures on the field.

Offcourse GSZ on it's own is awesome, but the point of a POD list is POD. So i would just use GSZ to either (assist) ramping early on or use it as a emergency button. In your list "normal" removal spells such as decay and/or deed where absent. I believe those should be there to control the board making sure you get POD online. For me it's just balancing the unbalanced. To many "engine" spells and to few control.

EDIT: As a 6 drop i really love AEtherling, both for it's ability to hit hard and to dodge removal. But for me the aesthetic value also counts as i used to play Oath of Druids in extended back in 2000? where Morphling was doing basicly the same thing.

EDIT2: I think Thrun is kinda underwhelming in POD lists (where he is ok in Punishing Nic Fit), i would personally choose for Venser.

[bryanzoll]

For the people looking for a 2 drop in Jund colors that can be fetched by GSZ...I saw no mention of Putrid Leech.

[pfiremc13]

I'd opt for either Progenitor or Primeval. Consecrated Sphinx is also an option. Choosing a 6-drop is probably one of the hardest things about playing Nic Fit. You can't have more than 2, and usually 1 is correct. But, there's a lot of very strong options at 6-spot that compete for attention.

Agreed on needing more Strixes. I wouldn't play BUG with less than 4. Card is just insane.

Melira is adorable, but unnecessary.

-------------

A thought I had:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wood Elves
3 Eternal Witness
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Ob-Nixilis, the Fallen

4 Crack the Earth
4 Warp World

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Aggressive Mining

4 Forbidden Orchard
5 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower

Note that this is like, super-mega rough. But I was mulling over how / if it would be possible to use Aggressive Mining the other day, and I decided that it should be possible in a very ramp-heavy version. Turning lategame Veterans, Wood Elves, etc into card advantage seems powerful. Since we're mega-ramping, we can potentially get away with Warp World, which synergizes with everything that the deck is trying to do.

Birds over Deathrites because I want that slot to be guaranteed mana production, whereas DRS is chancy. It might be that those 4 Birds should just be some Titans to add in a bit more top-end, since right now the creature curve stops at SGC and Ob-Nix, which, while reasonable, aren't Primeval / Inferno Titan.

No Therapy because no fetchlands makes the early black source chancy -- this is much more of a Crack the Earth deck.

Orchards synergize with Warp World while being amazing fixing -- WW counts permanents you -own-, not that you -control-. So your WW counts the spirits that you make from Orchard.

There's probably something functional here somewhere, if we wanted to work on it.

EDIT: This all syenrgizes really well with Defense of the Heart, too.

Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?

Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.

This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).

[Bobmans]

For the people looking for a 2 drop in Jund colors that can be fetched by GSZ...I saw no mention of Putrid Leech.

Basicly Putrid Leech functions as a 4/4 vanilla costing 2 life per turn. I'd rather play Tarmogoyf instead.



Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?

Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.

This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).

How about Purphoros, God of the Forge instead or alongside Goblin Bombardment?

[Arianrhod]

Adding one or two goblin bombardment might be helpful--VetEx and Simulacrum both need to die, and you can also can sac EWit and Wood Elves. Speaking of which, why wood elves over another ramp spell (Farseek, Ranger's Path)? Do you really need crack the earth fodder that much?

Talk about what SGC and warp world do in this deck.

This is a really interesting concept (I especially love ob nixilis).

Wood Elves nets you a permanent on top of being a permanent, whereas Farseek / Ranger's Path / etc are spells, and thus don't synergize with Warp World.

Basically, here's the thought process.

Starting point: how can Aggressive Mining be actually used? Saccing a land to draw 2 cards is potent and can be abused somehow, I'm sure.

> Loam and Crucible don't work with it, because you can't play lands. Thus, you need to be able to put lands into play directly from your deck.
> This means Explorer needs to be functional lategame, which means that you need a higher-than-avg number of basics. 2 color or very slight splash of 3.
> The next best ramp cards are Sakura-Tribe, Wood Elves, Solemn, Nature's Lore, Three Visits, and possibly Primal Growth.
> If we're looking at running 8-12 cards that dump lands into play, what are we ramping into? Yeah, we'll have plenty of card draw, but what are we doing other than drawing cards?
> The most powerful options in green and end are Warp World, Genesis Wave, and Tooth and Nail, in no particular order.
> Decided to work with Warp World first arbitrarily.
> This necessitates Wood Elves and Solemn Sim over the other options. Sakura-Tribe sacrifices itself to put a land into play, and the other options are spells and thus don't count for Warp World.
> Warp World is primarily broken via recursion -- you Warp, Warp hits an Eternal Witness which returns the Warp, and then you do it again and again until they're dead, basically.
> Ob-Nixilis is the premier wincon for Warp World -- between the lands themselves and the various Wood Elves / Solemn triggers, 1-2 Ob-powered Warps should be enough to kill most opponents. Hitting 2 Ob-Nixilises off of the same Warp should be lethal, since each Ob will trigger before they blow up from legend rule.
> Running so many basics means that we're not going to be able to run fetches, which means that Cabal Therapy should be replaced with Crack the Earth for this deck.
> This deck should be kept basically straight RG, with a splash of black to be able to cast any errant Ob Nixilises / sideboard Slaughter Games.

Then I just kind of derped up the shell around that core idea. Siege-Gang is there because he's the single most reasonable broken Warp World thing -- he counts as 4 permanents, which is huge for a Warp. He's also castable and reasonable on his own two feet, as opposed to something like Avenger of Zendikar, say.

Musing since thinking about it this morning:

-) Lotus Cobra might have a place here, along with a nominal fetchland count (say, 3-4...scapeshift style).
-) Primeval Titan is still ridiculous here, as he's worth 3 permanents.
-) Counterspells are going to be an issue. Going deep on Thragtusks is probably correct, since blue decks basically have to Force that guy whenever possible. Deck overall should probably be build as roughly Wolf Run Ramp from standard a few years ago, with a Warp World endgame combo.
-) There exist decks against which Warp World is going to be highly dangerous -- Sneak and Show comes immediately to mind.
-) Chandra, the Firebrand might have a place here. Forking a Warp World seems stronk.
-) Urabrask?

-) Unsure if the Warp World endgame is actually any better than the Tooth and Nail endgame. Gut is suggesting that T&N is the correct endpoint for this shell, but I'm not sure. The question of what to do when you have Aggressive Mining active and a million ramp mana is actually rather challenging.

[conboy31]

Not to piss on the creativity, but that deck looks like it auto loses to: TES, Ant, Reanimator, Belcher, High tide, Sneak and show, Burn and Elves. Essentially any deck in the format that can goldfish you at or before turn 4.

[pfiremc13]

Wood Elves nets you a permanent on top of being a permanent, whereas Farseek / Ranger's Path / etc are spells, and thus don't synergize with Warp World.

Basically, here's the thought process.

Starting point: how can Aggressive Mining be actually used? Saccing a land to draw 2 cards is potent and can be abused somehow, I'm sure.

> Loam and Crucible don't work with it, because you can't play lands. Thus, you need to be able to put lands into play directly from your deck.
> This means Explorer needs to be functional lategame, which means that you need a higher-than-avg number of basics. 2 color or very slight splash of 3.
> The next best ramp cards are Sakura-Tribe, Wood Elves, Solemn, Nature's Lore, Three Visits, and possibly Primal Growth.
> If we're looking at running 8-12 cards that dump lands into play, what are we ramping into? Yeah, we'll have plenty of card draw, but what are we doing other than drawing cards?
> The most powerful options in green and end are Warp World, Genesis Wave, and Tooth and Nail, in no particular order.
> Decided to work with Warp World first arbitrarily.
> This necessitates Wood Elves and Solemn Sim over the other options. Sakura-Tribe sacrifices itself to put a land into play, and the other options are spells and thus don't count for Warp World.
> Warp World is primarily broken via recursion -- you Warp, Warp hits an Eternal Witness which returns the Warp, and then you do it again and again until they're dead, basically.
> Ob-Nixilis is the premier wincon for Warp World -- between the lands themselves and the various Wood Elves / Solemn triggers, 1-2 Ob-powered Warps should be enough to kill most opponents. Hitting 2 Ob-Nixilises off of the same Warp should be lethal, since each Ob will trigger before they blow up from legend rule.
> Running so many basics means that we're not going to be able to run fetches, which means that Cabal Therapy should be replaced with Crack the Earth for this deck.
> This deck should be kept basically straight RG, with a splash of black to be able to cast any errant Ob Nixilises / sideboard Slaughter Games.

Then I just kind of derped up the shell around that core idea. Siege-Gang is there because he's the single most reasonable broken Warp World thing -- he counts as 4 permanents, which is huge for a Warp. He's also castable and reasonable on his own two feet, as opposed to something like Avenger of Zendikar, say.

Musing since thinking about it this morning:

-) Lotus Cobra might have a place here, along with a nominal fetchland count (say, 3-4...scapeshift style).
-) Primeval Titan is still ridiculous here, as he's worth 3 permanents.
-) Counterspells are going to be an issue. Going deep on Thragtusks is probably correct, since blue decks basically have to Force that guy whenever possible. Deck overall should probably be build as roughly Wolf Run Ramp from standard a few years ago, with a Warp World endgame combo.
-) There exist decks against which Warp World is going to be highly dangerous -- Sneak and Show comes immediately to mind.
-) Chandra, the Firebrand might have a place here. Forking a Warp World seems stronk.
-) Urabrask?

-) Unsure if the Warp World endgame is actually any better than the Tooth and Nail endgame. Gut is suggesting that T&N is the correct endpoint for this shell, but I'm not sure. The question of what to do when you have Aggressive Mining active and a million ramp mana is actually rather challenging.

Looks like the warp world plan is taking up roughly 60 deck slots (12 to be exact: the obs, the siege gangs and the ewits). In addition to the cards in the deck, that deck wants more disruption as conboy noted (crack the earth is good but nowhere near enough on its own) and thragtusks and prime times as you noted. Time to go tooth and nail imo. The only difference between that and warp world is that warp world costs one more mana but a million more deck slots.

It could start like this:

Mining with Tooth and Nail (Who needs pickaxes?)

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Nature's Lore
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Primal Growth

4 Cabal therapy
4 Thragtusk
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Thoughtseize

2 Primeval Titan
3 Tooth and Nail
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Aggressive Mining

5 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

The idea here is to ramp/disrupt until you get to t&n. Against a deck with limited removal/one that is tapped out you can fetch kiki + conscripts. Against a deck like miracles you can give them the middle finger and fetch double prime time. The list is rough obviously; there are a bunch of 1-, 2-, and 3-of's that should probably just be more 4-of's, and the manabase is somewhat thrown together. But it's a start.

[Bobmans]

Has anyone had experience with Spike Weaver in POD lists? It helps against Jitte and Batterskull and basicly against any creature strategy.

----

I really like that BUG Walker list by David McDarby, just before he went top16 there was another list with Punishing Fire and Nicol Bolas planeswalker. It may be a bit sup par, but i was thinking about this list:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Karn Liberated
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Dack Fayden
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Punishing Fire

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta

[Arianrhod]

Well. Garruk, Apex Predator is almost certainly better than Karn for Nic Fit. Not sure where that actually leaves him, though. 7 mana is a lot, even for us -- but every single one of those abilities is tailor-made for us. Undecided in my thoughts -- will sleep on it.

[maharis]

Well. Garruk, Apex Predator is almost certainly better than Karn for Nic Fit. Not sure where that actually leaves him, though. 7 mana is a lot, even for us -- but every single one of those abilities is tailor-made for us. Undecided in my thoughts -- will sleep on it.

It seems too dead against combo to ever work in legacy. Only way I could see it work is with glittering wish. Brew-worthy but generally disappointing

[Bobmans]

It seems too dead against combo to ever work in legacy. Only way I could see it work is with glittering wish. Brew-worthy but generally disappointing

wtf: -8: Target opponent gets an emblem with "Whenever a creature attacks you, it gets +5/+5 and gains trample until end of turn."

It's CMC is just a bit to high to make it work. First thing i think of is Miracles matchup where it might shine. But why o why such brainfart on it's Ultimate and CMC.

Anyway, how about this one. GGG is high taxing:
(It's a reprint, never mind)

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/60/79/635396804427631300.jpeg

[Nihilis]

wtf: -8: Target opponent gets an emblem with "Whenever a creature attacks you, it gets +5/+5 and gains trample until end of turn."

It's CMC is just a bit to high to make it work. First thing i think of is Miracles matchup where it might shine. But why o why such brainfart on it's Ultimate and CMC.

Anyway, how about this one. GGG is high taxing:
(It's a reprint, never mind)

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/60/79/635396804427631300.jpeg

As the opponent is the controller of the emblem, the "you" part refers to your opponent i.e. when you attack an opponent having such an emblem your creatures get +5/+5 and trample. Not sure if that confused you or not.

The manacost might be a little too high, but it could find a place in the BUG Walkers (you can always brainstorm it away when you draw it too early) or ScapeWish versions as a one of. Especially in the latter, where you have extra ramp and the target is 7 lands due to Scapeshift anyway. Getting this into play is almost an autowin, which given the CMC it really should be (maybe less so due to Council's Judgment). Then again, it might just be a massive brick.

[YamiJoey]

In regular Magic it is just "You get an Emblem with attacking Creatures you control have +5/+5 and Trample", in multiplayer it's strictly worse. Which makes sense as it's likely you're just going to Doubling Season -> This and become and unstoppable force of the truest powers.

[Bobmans]

I've put the JUND fit list and other weird brews aside and decided to build a BUG fit list. It is pretty much the list from the Paris T16.
Questions i have been asking myself. Is a Creeping tar pit any good. Would a Phyrexian tower and Volrath's Stronghold be any good. Would i like to see a Dryad Arbor in there.
Maybe squeeze in a Jace, TMS or Liliana of the Veil or 2 in there. I would like to replace the single Thoughtseize, but for what. Or add a second instead.

Heres the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Reclemation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 AEtherling

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Riptide Pilferer

[KantianSublime]

Hello.

Does the Jund-colored, non-Pod, Punishing Fire version of this deck usually run Kokusho or Recurring Nightmare? Also, I assume Phyrexian Arena is only played in Junk versions since they use Academy Rector?

Thanks.

[kavaki]

Im in an argument with some people. Are BUG Pod lists considered Nic Fit Variants (The version in question runs Explorer and Therapy)

[Bobmans]

Does the Jund-colored, non-Pod, Punishing Fire version of this deck usually run Kokusho or Recurring Nightmare? Also, I assume Phyrexian Arena is only played in Junk versions since they use Academy Rector?

Kokusho, the Evening Star is black and therefor not tutorable with GSZ. The thing is with PFire Jund is that you want to bring in a fatty after you have a stable board position to finish the job or you need one as a panic button. PFire jund fit relies more on its controllish nature with all the spells and less on creature tricks. Running more creature tricks will most likely unbalance it's controlling "edge" and will add some kind of clunkyness. Most lists do not run recurring nightmare, mostly due to the same reason. I would rather run Decay, Deed, PFire, Pulse, Lili, (Garruk, PH), etc, then tricks. Most lists run Volrath's Stronghold with Phyrexian Tower and Primeval Titan, Also 1 / 2 Eternal Witness. Should be enough considering most lists run pretty tight on the creature count.

Playing Phyrexian Arena is a posibility with or without rector lists, but i would rather run enchantment's with rector lists that have a higher impact on the board state.


Im in an argument with some people. Are BUG Pod lists considered Nic Fit Variants (The version in question runs Explorer and Therapy)

Well why wouldn't any POD list with Explorers and Therapy not be Nic Fit. The decks run the most efficient way to Ramp into creature abuse with either GSZ or POD. Just like the ancient Survival of the Fittest.dec

Nic Fit meaning (cus games tend to take for ages):
to be really bad-mood cause you can't get a cigarette to fulfill your need for nicotine, a nic-fit is a very serious situation when one doesn't want to interfere with the nic-fitter during the pursuit of a cigarette... or else someone might get hurt.
"If I don't get a cigarette soon I'm gonna start nic-fittin'."

[conboy31]

The scapeshift version crawled back to the prizes. 14th out of 300 in Japan on Saturday. http://www.happymtg.com/coverage/21426/

[.Ix]

I really want to play Junk or BUG nic fit, but I can't find Pernicious Deed. Is it really that good in the deck, or can I get away with not running it? How often do you guys sweep for profit in this deck? Seems like it hits a lot of your own permanents.

[Bobmans]

I really want to play Junk or BUG nic fit, but I can't find Pernicious Deed. Is it really that good in the deck, or can I get away with not running it? How often do you guys sweep for profit in this deck? Seems like it hits a lot of your own permanents.

If there is a deck to play Deeds, this is it. Your permanents are most of the times at higher CMC or you shouldn't be concerned to lose your own permanents since you can recur them. Having a board sweep mostly means you out of risk (for a period). Playing Nic Fit without deeds seems wrong.

[MeisterMitschl]

Since Qweerios decided to cut Deed from Junk Pod entirely I was wondering if this specific list still is a form of NicFit at all. Sure, the thing all variants have in common and how the archetype is defined is the interaction of Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. For me, however, Pernicious Deed as well has always been a cornerstone of NicFit. Keeping in mind the lower curve of Junk Pod and the absence of Deed I'm about to question the relevance of the Explorer/Therapy acceleration. I feel like we are moving away from NicFit and are rather becoming a somewhat controllish version of Maverick, if you like (or TheRock). With all our situational cards (Pod-targets) I wonder if Sylvan Library might be a good addition to the deck. Also, its synergy with Courser of Kruphix should not be overlooked. With both on the table we might be able to establish a one-sided Howling Mine often enough and both seem good on their own. With all our lifegain (Shaman, Ooze, Finks, Tusk, maybe Courser) Sylvan Library alone should be able to keep our gas going in grindy matches. After brainstorming I came up with a list like this (pretty much Qweerios' list with the aforementioned changes) and would love to hear your opinion:

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder / Orzhov Pontiff
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

[jobdevries]

Since Qweerios decided to cut Deed from Junk Pod entirely I was wondering if this specific list still is a form of NicFit at all. Sure, the thing all variants have in common and how the archetype is defined is the interaction of Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. For me, however, Pernicious Deed as well has always been a cornerstone of NicFit. Keeping in mind the lower curve of Junk Pod and the absence of Deed I'm about to question the relevance of the Explorer/Therapy acceleration. I feel like we are moving away from NicFit and are rather becoming a somewhat controllish version of Maverick, if you like (or TheRock). With all our situational cards (Pod-targets) I wonder if Sylvan Library might be a good addition to the deck. Also, its synergy with Courser of Kruphix should not be overlooked. With both on the table we might be able to establish a one-sided Howling Mine often enough and both seem good on their own. With all our lifegain (Shaman, Ooze, Finks, Tusk, maybe Courser) Sylvan Library alone should be able to keep our gas going in grindy matches. After brainstorming I came up with a list like this (pretty much Qweerios' list with the aforementioned changes) and would love to hear your opinion:

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bone Shredder / Orzhov Pontiff
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

To be honest, it kind of hurts to see lists like this popping up. This is looking less and less like a Nic Fit list; you basically removed the 3 defining cards that made Nic Fit. The original deck was made to abuse the lack of basic lands in the meta, and play high-cmc creatures that have high value. Why would you even play basics now? This is 'just' a regular POD list.

(No offense intended)

[MeisterMitschl]

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your honesty. :smile:

First, let me get this clear: I would never suggest cutting Explorers and Therapies in "traditional" NicFit.

At the same time, I know that the list above does not look like NicFit any more. In fact, this was exactly the point I intended to make. On the last pages of this thread, the junky Pod lists have evolved. Let's take Qweerios' list, for example. He has cut Pernicious Deed and upped the number of spot removal (Abrupt Decay) instead. There is no six-drop any more, but a SFM-package with equipments. Lately, even the number of Explorers is part of a debate and gets shaved in order to play up to four Deathrites. And I agree with these changes – for a Pod list.

My question is: does a Pod list that has evolved like this (lower curve, no six-drops, no deeds) still profit enough from the traditional NicFit ramp engine? Or are these Explorers and Therapies just relics of the past (again: regarding Pod lists, only)? My question is if these slots can be better used, regardless if you are still able to call the deck "NicFit" afterwards, or not. No offense intended, either, this is a real question I am asking myself and not a rhetorical one.

[Bobmans]

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your honesty. :smile:

First, let me get this clear: I would never suggest cutting Explorers and Therapies in "traditional" NicFit.

At the same time, I know that the list above does not look like NicFit any more. In fact, this was exactly the point I intended to make. On the last pages of this thread, the junky Pod lists have evolved. Let's take Qweerios' list, for example. He has cut Pernicious Deed and upped the number of spot removal (Abrupt Decay) instead. There is no six-drop any more, but a SFM-package with equipments. Lately, even the number of Explorers is part of a debate and gets shaved in order to play up to four Deathrites. And I agree with these changes – for a Pod list.

My question is: does a Pod list that has evolved like this (lower curve, no six-drops, no deeds) still profit enough from the traditional NicFit ramp engine? Or are these Explorers and Therapies just relics of the past (again: regarding Pod lists, only)? My question is if these slots can be better used, regardless if you are still able to call the deck "NicFit" afterwards, or not. No offense intended, either, this is a real question I am asking myself and not a rhetorical one.

Starting to look like Maverick/the Rock with a POD package.

Last weekend i saw a glimpse of someone playing GBW Nic Fit with Deeds and Sun Titan... That was just awesome. Not sure what the exact list was, but it makes me just wanna play that again.

Anyway, if Sun Titans with Deeds and Veteran Explorers with Cabal Therapies are not effecient or streamlined enough, then there is no hope for Nic Fit...


Btw, i was brewing towards a JUND Pod list and this is what i got so far:

Mainboard 61 cards.


3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Punishing Fire I just love this card, but it might be replaced with Lightning Bolt or Bonfire of the Damned.
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Sparkmage Apprentice Not the most powerful 2 drop, but it stop lots of critters
1 Vexing Shusher I played this in a PFire NicFit list. Blue decks have so much trouble with this card.
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Goblin Sharpshooter Shoot down a horde of Goblins or Elves.

1 Murderous Redcap
1 Flametongue Kavu I actually think this one is overkill with all the damage and removal. Might replace him with Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter I have not played this one yet, but i think this will be a time bomb for any deck.

1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw May also not be needed. Might replace him with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Thragtusk with Zealous Conscripts.

1 Sire of Insanity

3 Grove of the Burnwillows Just here for PFire.

1 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower Might be replaced.
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[jobdevries]

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your honesty. :smile:

First, let me get this clear: I would never suggest cutting Explorers and Therapies in "traditional" NicFit.

At the same time, I know that the list above does not look like NicFit any more. In fact, this was exactly the point I intended to make. On the last pages of this thread, the junky Pod lists have evolved. Let's take Qweerios' list, for example. He has cut Pernicious Deed and upped the number of spot removal (Abrupt Decay) instead. There is no six-drop any more, but a SFM-package with equipments. Lately, even the number of Explorers is part of a debate and gets shaved in order to play up to four Deathrites. And I agree with these changes – for a Pod list.

My question is: does a Pod list that has evolved like this (lower curve, no six-drops, no deeds) still profit enough from the traditional NicFit ramp engine? Or are these Explorers and Therapies just relics of the past (again: regarding Pod lists, only)? My question is if these slots can be better used, regardless if you are still able to call the deck "NicFit" afterwards, or not. No offense intended, either, this is a real question I am asking myself and not a rhetorical one.

@ Meister. I guess you are right in that case. If you remove the deeds and high-cmc spells, you don't benefit as much from the veterans. On the other hand, you are missing the advantage of the superb combination of veteran and therapy, and I don't think they can be replaced with for example thoughtseize. Also, I couldn't miss Deed in any list, (which again is worse in your list, considering the lower cmc). Deed beats so many decks in my opinion, it is too good to cut.

Edit: How do 4 GSZ and 3 B Pod play? Is it not 'too much'?

@ Bobmans. The Nic Fit-player with the Sun Titan and the Deeds, was that at the Legacy tourney in Rotterdam (Magic United) by any chance? If so, that was me ;).

[Bobmans]

@ Bobmans. The Nic Fit-player with the Sun Titan and the Deeds, was that at the Legacy tourney in Rotterdam (Magic United) by any chance? If so, that was me ;).

At was actually. You where playing against dredge. Sun Titan > recur Deed > GG. The game was already going on when i was watching. Later i saw you stomping someone with Sigarda. I couldn't figure if it was a POD list or an older version (rector). I did like the older versions, so many cool interactions and lines of play. Just awesome.

[jobdevries]

At was actually. You where playing against dredge. Sun Titan > recur Deed > GG. The game was already going on when i was watching. Later i saw you stomping someone with Sigarda. I couldn't figure if it was a POD list or an older version (rector). I did like the older versions, so many cool interactions and lines of play. Just awesome.

It's a kind of my own brew. Actually play with an SFM and living wish package. List if you are interested:

Creatures (13):
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathright Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Wolfir Silverheart

Spells (26):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Lingering Souls
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Living Wish

Lands (21):
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

Sideboard:
1x Sun Titan
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Peacekeeper
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith/Karakas
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Extirpate
2x Zealous Persecution

[Arianrhod]

I would never -not- run Explorer/Therapy in a Pod list, as 4-ofs. Therapy -> Explorer/Therapy/Pod on turn 2 is fundamentally broken. Unfortunately it's a few degrees of broken less than something like Show and Tell or Dark Ritual's existence, but it's substantially less fair than Tarmogoyf, so that's good.

Deathrite is the secondary, backup 1-drop. It is not and will never be the primary in my estimation. It's just too unreliable.

As for what makes Nic Fit "Nic Fit" -- my definition would be thus:

A Gx midrange control/combo hybrid ramp deck which utilizes Veteran Explorer to develop a mana advantage over its opponent, allowing it to deploy a formidable endgame while controlling the board and hand.

[Megadeus]

It's a kind of my own brew. Actually play with an SFM and living wish package. List if you are interested:

Creatures (13):
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathright Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Wolfir Silverheart

Spells (26):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Lingering Souls
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Living Wish

Lands (21):
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

Sideboard:
1x Sun Titan
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Peacekeeper
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith/Karakas
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Extirpate
2x Zealous Persecution

Cool list! I like it a lot! I may have to try out something like this since I'm only Therapies, Wishes and a few other things off from being able to put this together!

[Arianrhod]

It's a kind of my own brew. Actually play with an SFM and living wish package. List if you are interested:

Creatures (13):
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathright Shaman
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the last Troll
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Wolfir Silverheart

Spells (26):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Lingering Souls
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Living Wish

Lands (21):
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

Sideboard:
1x Sun Titan
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Peacekeeper
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith/Karakas
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Extirpate
2x Zealous Persecution

There's no Thragtusk in this list.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY2lxI6a9j78PPGqYVWOx3TWThqYFnzJ-3ZsQ8dP73NGz3zgStaONur4bz

[jobdevries]

There's no Thragtusk in this list.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRY2lxI6a9j78PPGqYVWOx3TWThqYFnzJ-3ZsQ8dP73NGz3zgStaONur4bz

Correct. I do not like Thragtusk as much. No interesting abilities, just some lifegain.

[Megadeus]

Pretty decent vs miracles as well. Card is real, and is you drop it against burn, you are in a good position. Trust the Tusk

[Arianrhod]

Pretty decent vs miracles as well. Card is real, and is you drop it against burn, you are in a good position. Trust the Tusk

Tusk is love. Tusk is life.

[UseLess]

I don't really get the love for Thragtusk either in a regular Nic Fit deck. It is a simple 5/3 vanilla beater that is easy to remove. Yes it leaves a 3/3 beast token, but I find that hardly impresses the opponent as well. The only reason I play it because it has a good EtB and LtB ability when podding to and from it. I hardly ever attack with it since that would just ruin the chain as it will get blocked. So instead of making strange comments about your love for cardboard I think it would be more appropriate to give examples of where the card is actually good. "Decent against miracles" is not really something I find convincing to play a card. I've tested it in regular BUGfit and never liked it. Sigarda>>>>>>Thragtusk.

[Megadeus]

It helps stabilize a board after ramping a bit too. Not only gaining you life but trading with possibly two of their dudes. I'm not sure what I really need to say other than its a two for one that also gains you life.

[gigapatrick]

Hello again all. It has been a moment or two since I posted, and while I have nothing interesting to report, I do have a question. I've been running Bug Pod for a little bit now, and the deck is super, super fun and also reasonably viable in the metagame. My question, however, is this: what other versions of Nic Fit are viable in the current meta? I'm interested in putting together other versions as well, but I'd like some input from the Nic Fit veterans. For example, I haven't seen a straight Green/Black version list mentioned, so I'm assuming there are better options, such as ScapeFit and PunishingFit, to be tested. Anyway, I await everyone's thoughts.

[UseLess]

While I agree with that statement, my problem with the card is that it doesn't make me win the game. When I start playing 5-drops I want them to close the game ASAP. The whole deck is already packed with x-for-ones, so I don't feel that is so necessary in the late game. For life you can also play finks and DRS if you really want that. I'm not saying the card is bad, but I don't think it is required in a Nic Fit deck either, especially if you're not playing Pod. Therefore the comments "no Thragtusk" are quite meaningless for me without more clarification. This deck is so different from others and so many things are tried, that it is strange to find such closed-mindness around a single card instead of asking why somebody does not run it or going into the rest of the deck.

[Megadeus]

Hello again all. It has been a moment or two since I posted, and while I have nothing interesting to report, I do have a question. I've been running Bug Pod for a little bit now, and the deck is super, super fun and also reasonably viable in the metagame. My question, however, is this: what other versions of Nic Fit are viable in the current meta? I'm interested in putting together other versions as well, but I'd like some input from the Nic Fit veterans. For example, I haven't seen a straight Green/Black version list mentioned, so I'm assuming there are better options, such as ScapeFit and PunishingFit, to be tested. Anyway, I await everyone's thoughts.

I think the reason straight up BG isn't common is that going into other colors gives you so much at a very low cost. White gives you a bomb like Sigarda and Red Gives you scapeshift/Pfire and blue gives you counterspells and such whereas straight GB is simply meh. I always liked PFire as I always felt one huge issue is Walkers with this deck, and PFire helps immensely.

As for Tusk, I think that whoever posted was half joking. The card is certainly really good though, and I think as long as burn is as popular as it is now, I want a haymaker like that to gain life because 2 points here and there from finks isn't usually enough.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

After seeing HoneyT's Dungrove Elder list I was inspired to make my own version. I even picked up the sweet full art foil ones to test out my brew. Instead of going red for wolf-run I went junk colors and ended up with this list:


4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Windswept Heath

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Glittering Wish
2 Council's Judgment

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Dungrove Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 Vindicate
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

In the tournament I played in on Monday I went 2-0-2. The second draw was an intentional draw into top 4. The reason I went junk is I always wanted an excuse to try out Glittering Wish and it was quite good. It's such a versatile card, you can get a threat, a hatebear in Gaddock Teeg, or specific removal for whatever the situation. This is the deck I played -1 Council's Judgement +1 Garruk Relentless. I'd recommend going -1 Thoughtseize +1 Castigate (Or Tidehollow Sculler if you prefer, I personally like castigate better) just to have some form of discard to get with glittering wish. I'd also go -1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Armada Wurm. It's debatable if that could be a second Sigarda, but I think with all the hexproof guys you're running they might side out swords to plowshares in which case have fun attacking for ten with Armada Wurm. Having a threat to get with Glittering Wish is a great tool. A couple more notes, Loxodon Hierarch is for the burn matchup, which is quite common in my meta. If you don't have a lot of burn or U/R delver in your meta I could see cutting it. However, it's a bit on the cheaper side and is a totally acceptable threat to wish for in some matchups that aren't burn. The two basic plains and scrubland are bad with Dungrove, but feel like a necessary evil to cast Council's Judgement.

I'll give a quick report with the deck.
Round one: Shardless Bug.
Game one he plays a couple of deathrites and two goyfs. Veteran explorer acted as a moat for the goyfs and eventually I glittering wished for a maelstrom pulse and hit both his goyfs. I start the beatdown with Dungrove Elder, and Garruk Relentless shows up to make a ton of wolf tokens that eventually overrun him. Game two a turn one thoughtseize into turn two hymn, into shardless agent cascading into ancestral was more than enough to put me away. Game three I build a board of dungrove and thrun and he toxic deluges, which also ends up taking his own goyf and shaman and clearing the board. I glittering wish for a loxodon Hierarch just to have a threat and start beating him down. I add a thragtusk to my board and he deluges again, going to 4. He decays my beast token, but I play a sigarda. This was on turn four of turns. He won't concede and we end up drawing.

Round two: U/W geddon Stax
Game one was long and grindy, with him armageddoning twice. He had wasteland crucible the entire game, keeping me on three basic lands. Eventually explorer and tribe elder could fetch nothing and I conceded with a bunch of uncastable five drops in my hand. Game two he plays a chalice on one, chalice on two, and a crucible. I deed away the chalices and play a gaddock teeg. I cabal therapy away an armageddon and jace. His ancient tomb did him a ton of damage and I eventually kill him with teeg. In his hand at the end of the game: 2 smokestacks and a humility. Game three he keeps a hand with mox diamond and one land and it wasn't much of a game. I killed him with sigarda before he could cast much of anything.

Round three: Resto U/W/R stoneblade
Game one He grabs a batterskull with mystic, and puts it into play. I deed away his SFM and batterskull token. He plays a Jace and I council's judgement it. He bolts me three!! times and then kills me with batterskull on his mishra's factory, the latter play I did not even think about. I wished for a vindicate for the skull in-between attacks but he forced it and that was game. Game two I thoughtseize him turn one and see SFM, Bolt, Swords. I take the mystic. I start the beatdown with dungrove and abrupt decay a clique he flashes in. A second dungrove shows up and finishes him, removal stranded in hand. Game three gaddock teeg prevented him from casting supreme verdict and jace. He swords the teeg and I GSZ for another. I play a sun titan, return my Dungrove Elder that had been blocked earlier when it was a 3/3 by mishra's factory (Again with this factory... it's not like I don't play modern where everyone plays manlands). My second teeg is taken care of and he verdicts away my board. I start making wolfs with garruk relentless and he plays SFM fetching Jitte. I use Garruk's fight ability and continue to attack with wolves, which eventually kill him.


Round four: Intentional draw against Deathblade. My opponent did not make it in, even though he was the one that proposed the ID. He called my matchup against him "unwinnable" which was utterly absurd considering the two games we played I was mana screwed. Too many people do not respect Nic Fit or just creative "brews" in general.

[MD.Ghost]

Thragtusk is really good - also in Pod! It can trade with most stuff (and get also the common 4/5 gofy), charge +5 Life (which can matter!) and leaves a token (big vs Miracle, good vs other stuff because you can block twice, counterattack, start pod again etc.)

In a pod-shell you will also use Recurring Nightmare to abuse Tusk. Nic Fit can include many 1off creatures and you can build different archetypes, but Thragtusk is a "must have" like "Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy" for most Nic Fit Decks.

------

Last Weekend i played a little tournament (29 players, 5 rounds) and grab my Punishing Fit stuff:

R1 vs Miracle 1:1 (G2 + 3 i "Slaughtered" away Jace + Entreat, but can't finish him the last timeout round)
R2 vs Miracle 0:2 (bad draws and unable to deal with early Entreat both Games...)
R3 vs Goblins 2:0 (get more "Big Stuff" and Punishing Fire online, after he "ports" me for a couple of turns)
R4 vs Lands.. 0:2 (G1 unable to create a board..G2 Thrun was good vs Maze, but Marit Large won the race, sadly he did'nt naturally dredge into the Combo...hold Extraction in my hand...)
R 5 vs Zombies 2:0 (G2 he drops Tombstalker, i drop Titan, he drops 2nd Tombstalker i Punish one away with triple Fire and Overrun him with Kessig+Titan)

11th place... unhappy with round 2 and 4, but afterall deck showed it can win some games in a very brutal way.

Sideboard:
3 Slaughter Games
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Rakdos Charm

[pfiremc13]

Thragtusk is not good at finishing the game, but that's not what it's supposed to do. If aggro/midrange decks were doing their job they'll have some stray creatures on the field, and that's where thragtusk is perfect. It trades with 1-2 creatures AND gains you back the life you've lost in the meantime. Against miracles it puts pressure on the opponent and their planeswalkers, and the pressure doesn't go away after a single removal spell. In the early game it gives you a buffer and gives you the necessary board control. I disagree that there is such a thing as "enough" card advantage or board control when some decks are getting 3- and 4-for-1's and others are means to fight through lifegain (burn).

Is it a possibility that cutting thragtusk would help? Yes, but that is very unlikely.

[Arianrhod]

I was definitely being tongue-in-cheek regarding the lack of Thragtusk in that list -- hence the Vader meme picture.

That being said, it seems to have spawned something of a more serious debate on the ole Thrag, so I'll address that now.

Let's look at his peers:

Sigarda is better than Thragtusk. Sigarda is arguably the single most powerful finisher that Nic Fit has access to in any color combination. That being said, she's only available to one of them.

Batterskull is better than Thragtusk. However, Batterskull cannot be Zenithed into play like Thrag can, nor can it be Podded up except by way of SFM or Godo.

Archangel of Thune is worse than Thragtusk. The only reason Archangel sees play is because its ability is batshit crazy, either when enabling a combo (Spike Feeder) or just having strong synergy with lifegain cards + board state, which is a combination that Nic Fit is uniquely adopted to take advantage of.

Baneslayer Angel is even with Thragtusk, in my opinion. It gets points for being a huge finisher -- ostensibly more powerful than Sigarda, even though she doesn't have the same level of protection that Sigarda does (and is therefore more unreliable despite the increased power). However, she gets docked for not being Zenithable and not doing anything when she gets removed.

Deranged Hermit is far worse than Thragtusk. He only sees play in dedicated token variants, and shouldn't even be on the list, but I need 5-drops to compare to.

Shriekmaw is a 5-drop that sees a lot of play, but can't really be compared to Thrag.

I'm not sure what else to compare him to.

Something that I've noticed lately is that 6-drops seem to be winning the game more often. I'm not sure why this is, but it's what I've seen and experienced. Usually Nic Fit tends to revolve around its 5-drops -- the lone 6-drop (or two) were haymakers meant to make the opponent expend all of their resources, and then the 5-drops came in and cleaned up. Ie: make opponent blow Verdict on Grave Titan, then Sigarda comes down and wins.

In this paradigm, Thragtusk was basically always the "bridge" 5-drop. Thrag kept you alive when you dropped your 6s, which led to your other 5s winning the game. This is because what Thragtusk does better than literally any other creature is keep you alive. He gains 5 life, which, using my metric of 3hp=1 turn translates to 1.5 turns off his trigger alone. Then, he blocks twice. If you assume a 5/6 Goyf (not uncommon), that's 10 more life saved, for a total of 15 life from Thragtusk alone. This converts to FIVE turns of Time. This is why Thragtusk is almost always the first 5-drop I get, every single game. He buys you the time to get to your actual game plan. He's never the plan itself (barring vs burn) -- in a way, he's the deck's perpetually under-appreciated middleman. He never gets the glory, but he does the heavy lifting behind the scenes to get you the win.

I would argue that this is even -more- the case for Pod lists, because Pod tends to eat your life total if you're using Pod aggressively (which I do most of the time). It helps that Thrag does something on both ends of Pod -- both coming and going.

So, no -- Thragtusk isn't MANDATORY for Nic Fit. If you want, you're certainly welcome to experiment with cutting it. I'll note that every single time I've tried cutting Thragtusk because I wanted some other 5-drop, I've been disappointed in not having it, and have immediately put it back in after the event.

I'll close by referencing my definition for Nic Fit once again:

"A Gx midrange control/combo hybrid ramp deck which utilizes Veteran Explorer to develop a mana advantage over its opponent, allowing it to deploy a formidable endgame while controlling the board and hand."

Per that definition, literally the only thing that's required for a deck to be Nic Fit in my book is that it runs Veteran Explorer. It doesn't need Therapy (as proven by Crack the Earth), and it doesn't need Deed (as proven by umpteen million Pod lists that would rather run DRS and Stoneforge than Deed). It certainly doesn't need Thragtusk. But I remain of the opinion that Thragtusk is optimal for most varieties, and you need a compelling reason -not- to run it, as opposed to the other way around.

[jbone2016]

Update to I wish I rectored her junk (yes, childish name)

Spells
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer
1 Batterskull (changed from Sun Titan)
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Moat (changed from Recurring Nightmate
1 StP
2 Decay
Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland (another wish target) over Ashen Rider
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nether Void
1 Engineered Plague (aka I hate elves) instead of carpet #1
1 Toxic deluge (p.s. I hate elves) instead of carpet #2

Results from last 4 events
SCG Mil (6-2-1, lost to bug, elves)
Side event at GP Mpls (4-1-1, Lost to bug, ID in last 3)
SCG IQ (3-2-1, lost in top 8 to elves, other loss to elves)
Small legacy (4-1-1, split in finals, lost to miracles in 3 close games)

Pretty happy with the deck, currently. Hope to do well at SCG KC.

[HoneyT]

Update to I wish I rectored her junk (yes, childish name)

Hope to do well at SCG KC.

See you there! Still not in love with the random Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main, but generally speaking looks solid still.

[Bobmans]

There are some really nice GBW brews out there. I really like this color combination in Nic Fit. So i have been brewing a list for myself and let me been inspired by the latest lists that came across in the last week. Especially with that list running lingering souls. So i thought academy rector with a bunch of tokens. Feels like Collective Blessing might be at the right place here. Along with some planeswalkers it might actually be cool against Miracle.dec. So including a rector package. Also i really like a SFM package along with the usual suspects, but that might just be a little tooo much. So sticking with a basic GBW list with rector and some token generators. In the sideboard i have included some stuff to fight combo or really fast decks such as Burn.

Any thoughts on improvement?

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Collective Blessing
1 Humility

1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless

1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ivory Mask
SB: 1 Agent of Erebos
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

[kaminamina]

Hey all,

My brother has shown some interest in Legacy. I've been looking for decks to get him into the format that would also be semi-cheap to build. Is it possible to build a semi-budget GB Nic Fit that's still competitive?

Here's a rough list I threw together for testing on Cockatrice:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Wall of Blossoms
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks

Now, before you rip into this, please note: I have NO IDEA what I'm doing building this deck. I have zero experience with this archetype and just kinda threw stuff together that seemed good. So here's some questions:

Is Pod better than GSZ? Should it run some combination of the two? GSZ seems a lot stronger than Pod in my eyes but I see a lot of pod lists lately so maybe I'm wrong.

How much hand disruption is appropriate? Obviously you need 4 cabal therapy but a few Hymns also seem right, especially since this is just GB.

How important is Liliana? Her price jumped up recently and she seems like a good card to cut to make the deck cheaper. However I could be vastly underrating her, I'm well aware she's insanely strong.

Is 17 creatures enough? Not enough? Too many?

Is four DRS correct? The lifegain seems super relevant against... well, anyone. This is a slow deck after all and delver is huge in our meta.

My sideboard probably needs work as well.

Thanks for the advice!

[Megadeus]

Don't think you need 4 Deathrites. Maybe none. I could be wrong there. I would maybe think about a Prime Titan or a Grave titan. Grave titan closes a game and stabilizes very nicely

[kaminamina]

There's already a prime time in there actually. Grave titan can't be fetched via GSZ but I can still see putting one in there. Maybe that's why pod is good? It fetches non-green bombs?

[jobdevries]

There are some really nice GBW brews out there. I really like this color combination in Nic Fit. So i have been brewing a list for myself and let me been inspired by the latest lists that came across in the last week. Especially with that list running lingering souls. So i thought academy rector with a bunch of tokens. Feels like Collective Blessing might be at the right place here. Along with some planeswalkers it might actually be cool against Miracle.dec. So including a rector package. Also i really like a SFM package along with the usual suspects, but that might just be a little tooo much. So sticking with a basic GBW list with rector and some token generators. In the sideboard i have included some stuff to fight combo or really fast decks such as Burn.

Any thoughts on improvement?

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Collective Blessing
1 Humility

1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless

1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ivory Mask
SB: 1 Agent of Erebos
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm



Amazing Bobmans. If you will believe it, I actually played a near-copy of that mainboard a while ago... Even the sorin and garruk were in there. Really cool you are experimenting with Collective Blessing as well, the card feels really powerful. In the end it just didn't really do it for me.. collective blessing was too often in my hand doing nothing... rector got stifled etc... The worst thing was humility. Every single time it landed, it actually worked against me. In other words the neat interactions look better on paper. My suggestion would be up the count of phyrexian tower to 2 (instead of 2nd savannah?), especially with rector in your list.
I am interested what direction your deck will go, keep us posted ^^

[Megadeus]

There's already a prime time in there actually. Grave titan can't be fetched via GSZ but I can still see putting one in there. Maybe that's why pod is good? It fetches non-green bombs?

Ah yes now I see. Your titan doesn't really get you anything good though. And Grave Titan can't be GSZ'D but you can find him with top out something

[Bobmans]

Amazing Bobmans. If you will believe it, I actually played a near-copy of that mainboard a while ago... Even the sorin and garruk were in there. Really cool you are experimenting with Collective Blessing as well, the card feels really powerful. In the end it just didn't really do it for me.. collective blessing was too often in my hand doing nothing... rector got stifled etc... The worst thing was humility. Every single time it landed, it actually worked against me. In other words the neat interactions look better on paper. My suggestion would be up the count of phyrexian tower to 2 (instead of 2nd savannah?), especially with rector in your list.
I am interested what direction your deck will go, keep us posted ^^

Cool, thnx. i suppose a 2nd Tower would up the chances of actually being able to use it on a vet or rector, but it seems horrible if you draw both of them during a game.

I really like Collective Blessing, it just makes all the tokens just beefy. Expecially with deathtouch, lifelink and flying. Humility is kind of a nonbo in that sense. I think that for this build also The Abyss and Nether Void are a bit underwhelming. Perhaps i will replace them for some more hate like Choke. Also i am thinking to have a mainboard replacement for Humility. Something different. I have been looking for some other (fun) enchantments and came across the following:

Debtors’ Knell
Angelic Destiny
Grave Pact
Eldrazi Conscription
Primeval Bounty
Exquisite Blood
Primal Vigor / Parallel Lives
City of Solitude
Deadbridge Chant
Dueling Grounds
Lurking Predators
Runed Halo
Worship

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I've moved away from BUG for now, Junk just seems a lot stronger overall. The only thing I really miss is the Glen-Elendra Archmage. I've only played one matchup vs miracles and I don't know if it's supposed to be as bad as it felt, but they had a terminus everytime I had anything even remotely going. And without a sure way to kill Jace, he slowly took over the game in both games I played.

Creatures: 25
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Spike Feeder

1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Archangel of Thune

Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Other: 7
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windsweapt Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Abrubt Decay
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sun Titan
1 Orzhov Pontiff

[GtF]

chaos;822856']I've moved away from BUG for now, Junk just seems a lot stronger overall. The only thing I really miss is the Glen-Elendra Archmage. I've only played one matchup vs miracles and I don't know if it's supposed to be as bad as it felt, but they had a terminus everytime I had anything even remotely going. And without a sure way to kill Jace, he slowly took over the game in both games I played.

Creatures: 25
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Roots

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Spike Feeder

1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Archangel of Thune

Instants/Sorcs: 6
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Other: 7
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windsweapt Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Abrubt Decay
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sun Titan
1 Orzhov Pontiff

The miracles matchup is very rough, for BUG pod as well. Pithing Needle is a good card against them, it hits jace and top. The conflict with pernicious deed isn't that bad either, because if you have their tops shut down, you don't really need to worry about counterbalance as much, and it still deals with angel tokens. Upping your GSZ count might help so that you have access to more thruns.

[Arianrhod]

The hard part about Miracles as a deck for (most) varieties of Nic Fit is that their philosophical goal of a game is basically the same as ours. They want to sit back, make a bunch of mana, and do broken things with it. To beat Miracles, one must attack on one of two planes:

-) Uncounterable threats: see also Slaughter Games or anything with Boseiju in play. Creatures are less valuable than spells, because Terminus can and will happen. Sigarda and Thrun do some of the lord's work while they are out, but you can't expect them to remain in play. Miracles functions by using its countersuite to protect itself from things it can't handle with board control, and then the StP/Snapcaster/Terminus package to cover the board aspect. If Miracles has an Achilles' Heel, its uncounterable instants and sorceries.

-) Pretend you're playing a mirror. Not even kidding. If you want to win the mirror, you bulk up your list and make it, frankly, increasingly EDH-like. More combos and potent, game-ending synergies. Bigger, nastier dudes. I was once asked, "what do you do if everyone is playing Broodmate Dragon?" My immediate response: "play Avenger of Zendikar." The same philosophy functions here. Force them to have the Terminus or die immediately. Then do it again. And again, until they succumb.

The concern with the latter approach, obviously, is that it tends to weaken your deck against other archetypes. But that's something that you have to weigh vs how much you want to beat Miracles.

[Ralf]

Hello All,

With the current meta (driven by U/X/X Blade, Miracle, BUG Delver & Shardless, and a few combo) I think it is time to slam a good old "Punishing fire" list to deal with all those planeswalkers & small buddies (Jace, Lili & friends) .

Based on the hard work of a lot of famous nicfit posters, I've spent the last few weeks on fine tuning a pure control list to grind this meta.

Punishing Story

4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
4 Grove of the Burnwillow
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Forest

4 Veteran explorer
1 Dryad militant
2 Eternal witness
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing fire
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith
3 Abrupt decay
1 Maelstrom pulse

Sideboard

3 Surgical extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Red elemental blast
2 Slaughter games
1 Krosan grip
2 Golgari charm


Here are some general comments and choices:

1) 23 lands

This deck is mana hungry. I don't want to waste a zenith slot for a small ramp buddy (such as sylvan ranger) against Miracle and other control deck.
Also this fix a BIG issue I had with "black" as in many games against combo, I would have killed to have a "black" land in hand to play a turn 1 TS or Therapy.
12 was unfortunately on the low end and the addition of another bayou just feels better. Yet, we have to reach the magical number which is 14, but this is already decent.
Not to mention that Liliana is also easier to cast on turn 3 in match-up where it matters.

TIPS
3 swamps/2 forest -> to be able to cast a liliana of the therapy/explorer combo (if you have landed an explorer first.)


2) 4 Sensei

I was a strong proponent for playing only 3 in Nic Fit as a general feeling; but in this shell, you definitely need 4. There are games where you have it and there are others... I was losing too much % against BUG without the 4th.


3) 3 Punish & 3 A.D & 1 Maelstrom.P

Thanks to Honey for this split (and also @Jund thread).

A mix balance for an unknown meta. But as a general feeling, I would rather keep the deck at 3 punishing fire. Your fetchable turn 1 & 2 colors are green/black or black/green. Furthermore, don't forget that punishing fire without grove is just an overcosted shock...
Maelstrom pulse is your 7th targetted removal, half punishing, half decay, as it tends to bring more value in the long run; not only because it can hit some permanents than decay (& obviously punishing) cannot, but also in some circumstances (non zero amount of times), it creates virtual card advantage hitting more than one copy of a permanent in play (double goyfs, tokens etc...)

4) 2 Eternal Witness & 2 Towers.

As enlightened by Tao in its primer, game 1, these tools ensure you I.N.E.V.I.T.A.B.I.L.I.T.Y against fair.decks.
Be it a Thragtusk, a Huntmaster, a Deed, a targetted removal every turn. Period.
Slow as hell, sure. But didn't we say that this deck is a pure control one ?

5) 3 Liliana and no other planeswalker.

Hard choice?
Yes, as I am a true lover of Garruk, PH and Vraska (more uncommon), but unfortunately, they are not as powerful as the rest of the deck (EW & 2 towers mainly).
Nevertheless, they could be a good choice as a one-of in the sideboard to lesser to a certain extend the gravehate we will have to cope with game 2 & 3.

6) Creatures: stock list & 1 outsider ?

I won't go over each one but in a JUND shell, I think this package is appropriate.
I'll focus on my outsider.

Dryad Militant. Wow.
What the hell is he thinking ? Bad synergy with half of the deck ???
Yes.

But, we are the one who plays it and it is a trump in several MU:
- 2 turns faster than Ooze and has a better inherited hate in the MU you are gszing for him.
- Storm has to play a longer game and cannot always go for a T2 kill with him on the battlefield
- Small clock & value ->Who said savannah lion powah ? Yes. 2/1 for 1 mana
- Fuck SCM and DRS ping activation ? Yes, at least, he would eat 1 removal that cannot be flashbacked thereafter.
- Dredge ? Wait...what the hell...(player lost)

After a lot of tests, this small b.stard has just improved by a few margin some MU and by a large margin, others.

7) Sideboard

Copy/paste for Honey

For now, I find this sideboard to be pretty stock.
Due to the resurgence of burn.deck, I have replaced the one-of "Choke" by a "Kitchen Fink".

Happy to discuss.

Cheers Nic Fitters !

[litenkatt]

^Thanks for sharing

Personally I'd like to fit in Garruk Relentless somewhere. Of all the garruks, he's in my opinion the best. Cheap to play, kills stuff, puts bears into play and can search for creatures. Not to mention how great he works with deed (well all PWs does I guess)

Also, why not play 4 Punishing Fire? Feels like you always want to draw that card (well except against combo, but that's why we got a sideboard).

I like Witness a lot in this deck. 2 seems like a fine number

How does the dryad punish dredge decks though? Since he doesnt remove creatures

[Arianrhod]

Multiple PFires are useless, and with 4 Tops you'll hit one.

@Ralf: why not run a copy of Urborg if you've been struggling with the black costs? Also, with the increased black focus of that list, what are your thoughts on the viability of some number of Hymn to Tourachs?

[Megadeus]

Having a Pirme Titan to get the two towers to protect from terminus/STP vs Miracles is actually really good too.

[Ralf]

@ Litenkatt: It has a great impact on their kill. When dryad is out, they have to go "combat" and cannot kill you through Dread return shenanigans (As dread return is removed by dryad; their therapies are also removed). Unless they are pretty fast and manage to put 4 bridge from below + many ichorid in the same turn, the game is yours.
I have tested 4 punishing and to be honest, as Arian said it, you'll find one eventually. Maelstom Pulse as its devoted slot as a great "catch'all" where punish tends to lack.
Who has never died facing 2 topdecked goyfs turn after turn...Really a bad feeling. Not to mention greedy S&T players who want to protect their sneak attack from discard by casting it T3 without another red source available to win on the spot !

If you really want to fit in "Garruk relentless", I guess your best shot is to replace Thrun by him. They are somehow fulfilling the same "role" for MU you want them (i.e threat hard to remove).
And as I don't run "Kessig Wolf Run" anymore, he could be the better choice. Hard to say without a deep testing against Miracle and other control/mid range decks.
Thrun = uncounterable, fetchable via GSZ (virtually 5 thruns in my deck), removable by terminus/ sac effect (edict, IB, Lili)
Garruk= counterable, not fetchable (its main liability in my point of view), does not fear terminus nor sac effect, could be removed once flipped by AD

EDIT: Groves are like wasteland. They stay in hands until you have a punishing to get back (or you are dying for a green source). Thus, in any case, you'll make your CA. Kill a dude, get it back with groves and watch it die the very next turn to a wasteland your competitive opponent would have spared in case of...
Remember G2 & 3 that Punishing is not an activated ability so that you can, for example, still get back your punishing fire with an extirpate on the stack.

@ Arianrhod: To be able to cast (odds> 90 %) a TS or a Therapy, by turn 1, game 2 or 3 you need 14 black sources. With 12, I felt sometimes to have more mulligans than wanted. Unfortunately, Urborg does not increase that number (I would stay at 13 black sources). However, it could help a bit more casting Lili by turn 3.
This is only a fact that really counts when facing combo, where you would desperately need to discard one of their combo piece before turn 2/3.
Dryad mitigates those numbers fairly well as the odds of dying T2 is likely to happen only when you get paired against Storm (Belcher is a fringe deck). Other combo.deck are usually a bit slower.

Now, I could test and see the impact of having only 15 green sources instead of 16 (-1 bayou / +1 Urborg). I guess this is not an issue for T1 explorer or T2 GSZ, but I could see some use cases where casting an EW by turn 3 could be clunky (and to compare with the likeliness to cast Lili on turn 3).

If anyone is interested in a good article about deckbuilding mana sources to consistently cast your spell have a look:
The following is a very good one & written by Frank Karsten. Don't be shy, Maths could be overlooked, just stare at the sheets !!! (If not use hypergeometric function in excel)

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

And based on this article, to consistently cast Hymn by turn 2, we should have 20 black sources...

@ Megadeus: Primeval is in my list already. If this was not a question, but an affirmation I could not agree more. Primeval kicks ass. Unfortunately you cannot protect him the very turn you fetch for the 2 towers as they are coming tapped. But if you are lucky enough to untap with him still on the battlefield, Mass is said.
Arian has already summed it up in a previous post. We/I don't kill with Primeval...He always dies. But I do kill with Thragtusk/Huntmaster loop.

[jbone2016]

Huh. I guess they liked my list so much they had to post it 5 times.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2014-06-29&end_date=2014-06-29&event_ID=29&city=Shakopee&state=MN&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&limit=8

[Ralf]

Huh. I guess they liked my list so much they had to post it 5 times.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2014-06-29&end_date=2014-06-29&event_ID=29&city=Shakopee&state=MN&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&limit=8

Congrats !

I would enjoy a report ! Even a brief one !

Cheers,

[Quasim0ff]

Huh. I guess they liked my list so much they had to post it 5 times.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2014-06-29&end_date=2014-06-29&event_ID=29&city=Shakopee&state=MN&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&limit=8
That seems unlikely to ever top8. Didn't you get deck checked once? pls no banerino trollerino or responderino Kappa

(damnit, one of the five isn't fucked up :(

[firebadmattgood]

You can also pay multiple RED when you use grove (pay red, surgical, pay red again and you have screwed the surgical/extirpate effect). Properly played, a punishing fire is very very hard to remove.

No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.

[Bobmans]

No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.

And if you had a second Grove (or w/e can get you opponent to gain life) activation on red after Surgical went on the stack, won't there be a new triggered ability coming on the stack on top of Surgical?

[Ralf]

No you can't. There's one triggered ability, and you choose to pay red or not to pay red as a part of the resolution of that ability.

Yes my bad, you need a second grove to make another trigger.
Thanks !

Rulings
01/10/2009 Punishing Fire's triggered ability triggers only if it's already in your graveyard at the time an opponent gains life. For example, you can cast it in response to a spell or ability that will cause an opponent to gain life. In that case, Punishing Fire will resolve first, so it will be in the graveyard by the time the opponent gains life. However, if you wait until an opponent actually gains life and then cast Punishing Fire, you won't be able to return it to your hand at that time.
01/10/2009 You choose whether to pay {R} as the triggered ability resolves.
01/10/2009 If Punishing Fire has left your graveyard by the time its triggered ability resolves, you may still pay {R}, but you won't return it to your hand. This is true even if Punishing Fire has left your graveyard and returned to it by the time its triggered ability resolves.

[Arianrhod]

If anybody will be at GP Worcester next week, I'll be in attendance. I've been working on a modern port of Scapewish and I think I've got it nominally functional -- now I've got a week to tune it, lol. But yeah -- feel free to swing by and say hey if anyone else'll be there =)

[litenkatt]

Anyone playing Scapewish nowdays? How does the most recent lists look like?

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

This is my latest list. Note that I haven't actually played legacy in several months after buying/moving into my first house, but this is where I'm going to start when I pick the format back up in the wake of Worcester.

[litenkatt]

2 Batterskull main. That's interesting

[Firepaw3]

I played Scapewish this weekend at SCG Baltimore, started 4-0 then the wheels fell off after a loss to my Friend Josh Rhodes who t8'd
I used Kevin's anti combo configuration, for reference:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Slaughter Games

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Slaughter Games
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

2-1 vs Ben friedmen URW Delver
2-0 vs DnT
2-1 vs Clay Burn
2-0 vs JD Nir infect
1-2 vs Josh Rhodes RUG Delver
2-1 vs Shardless BUG
2-1 vs trinket mage miracles
0-2 vs RUG
0-2 vs Fred in very close games on reanimator

The slaughter games over preformed in the matchups I wanted them (reanimator and miracles) and was lucky enough not to show up in any other matches
6-3 to end it, a win on the second RUG opponent would have let me draw into t8 so close but RUG stood in my way yet again, hope to get there next time

[Arianrhod]

That's a shame. How were the Lilianas for you?

Also, did you at least finish in the money? X-3 is dodgy, but since you were almost able to ID into top 8, I'm assuming your breakers were good.

What happened in the RUG matchups? Usual RUG godhand bullshit?

[Ralf]

I played Scapewish this weekend at SCG Baltimore, started 4-0 then the wheels fell off after a loss to my Friend Josh Rhodes who t8'd
I used Kevin's anti combo configuration, for reference:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Slaughter Games

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Slaughter Games
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

2-1 vs Ben friedmen URW Delver
2-0 vs DnT
2-1 vs Clay Burn
2-0 vs JD Nir infect
1-2 vs Josh Rhodes RUG Delver
2-1 vs Shardless BUG
2-1 vs trinket mage miracles
0-2 vs RUG
0-2 vs Fred in very close games on reanimator

The slaughter games over preformed in the matchups I wanted them (reanimator and miracles) and was lucky enough not to show up in any other matches
6-3 to end it, a win on the second RUG opponent would have let me draw into t8 so close but RUG stood in my way yet again, hope to get there next time

Congrats !

How where the Lilis ?
Did the double black or the first turn discard never show up as a liability with only 11 black sources ?
How come you lost against RUG ?

[OCPunisher]

One of the main reasons why I put this deck aside was the combo-ripe meta at my local shop. The idea of using MD Slaughter Games is ingenious, and makes me want to give this another shot.

[Wincheee]

Hey guys! what you think about Garruk Relentless? Planeswalkers works reaaly good with explorer's aceleratiom and with Pernivious deed.
I play Scapeshift with this changes

-1 Top
- 2 Slaughter Games
- 1 Huntmaster

- + 3 Decays
- + 1 Garruk Relentless

And i want one copy of Master of the wild hunt in the main, but i don't know what to cut :(

[Firepaw3]

That's a shame. How were the Lilianas for you?

Also, did you at least finish in the money? X-3 is dodgy, but since you were almost able to ID into top 8, I'm assuming your breakers were good.

What happened in the RUG matchups? Usual RUG godhand bullshit?

Yea 39th, I had the highest breakers of x-2 going into the last round but couldent draw because the reanimator player was 7-1-1 and had a shot to get in
against RUG the first time i stumbled on mana g1 and g3 i got valakut and stomping as my initial mana sources with a great hand otherwise, dident see a third land till t4 and got triple dazed after a t1 delver
the the second match I had 3 vets with no way to sac other than a countered pyroclasm and game 2 he got the one land blind flip delver counter everything hand :rolleyes:
the lilianas were fine, they were mostly used as a sac effect, i feel like they could be something else tho they aren't the best thing against combo and dont do much against miracles given they can just play off the top 3 cards of their deck, maybe a surgical or something to go with the discard, although that might be too much of a reach with slaughters already in

[Firepaw3]

Congrats !

How where the Lilis ?
Did the double black or the first turn discard never show up as a liability with only 11 black sources ?
How come you lost against RUG ?

once during the tournament I had to wait for a black source to therapy but i got it by turn 3 and it wasn't very relevant, (t1 vet t2 sakura against infect is fine anyway)
the Lilis were always drawn late and not an issue to cast at that point
against rug my deck decided to give me rly shakey hands that either did nothing or have to gamble with the mana base, along with the possibility of delvers nut draws, Josh plays me all the time so he knows how to interact with scapewish which makes things much harder and the second match i never got to put up a fight

[jbone2016]

It seems GerryT has highlighted samwise88's list from modo.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28979_Daily-Digest-Veteran-Deathblade.html

Lack of deed seems odd.

[Ralf]

It seems GerryT has highlighted samwise88's list from modo.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28979_Daily-Digest-Veteran-Deathblade.html

Lack of deed seems odd.

I guess this was a "last" minute build with what he had in his card pool.
Anyway, I could see Deed awkward in his list.

This deck is "in between" Maverick and NicFit when speaking of creatures:
- early game -> Maverick (except Vet) shell
- end game -> NicFit shell

[Arianrhod]

It seems GerryT has highlighted samwise88's list from modo.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28979_Daily-Digest-Veteran-Deathblade.html

Lack of deed seems odd.

God, those comments are awful.

List is definitely missing a Sigarda, but otherwise it actually looks pretty similar to Qweerios's last GBW list, which I believe was drifting in that direction. Sideboard is obviously awful, and the manabase needs shaped up a bit -- but generally speaking it's not some "new innovative thing" -- it's just another product of our awesome behemoth of a thread.

[HoneyT]

god, those comments are awful.

List is definitely missing a sigarda, but otherwise it actually looks pretty similar to qweerios's last gbw list, which i believe was drifting in that direction. Sideboard is obviously awful, and the manabase needs shaped up a bit -- but generally speaking it's not some "new innovative thing" -- it's just another product of our awesome behemoth of a thread.

But why can haz no dryad arborz?

[litenkatt]

Having lots of fun with Punishing fire version atm. Mostly been playing against stoneblade w/ true name, jace, snapcaster etc and it feels like the matchup is 90/10 in our favour

[Woe_Bringer]

JUst got done looking at the walker build and watching the vids. Seems kinda interesting some minor tweaking could make it more viable. The one ofs's of strix and ponder need to be changed out, possiabliy for more walker maybe Kiora maybe even Ashiok. Here is the link with vids if any1 is interested http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28982_Veteran-Walkers.html.

[jbone2016]

Alright. Looking to update the sideboard/wishboard a little for this weekend in KC.
Maindeck is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=822175&viewfull=1#post822175
Staying (11):

2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage (maybe maindecking)
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Coming in (1):
Vampire Hexmage aka Jace Killer

Considering:
Nether Void
Wasteland (probably not)
Engineered Plague
Toxic deluge
Warmth vs Burn, Gobbos, Punishing Fire
Helm of Obedience vs Rest in peace decks
Curse of Exhaustion
Enlightened Tutor
Deed #4
Carpet of Flowers (max 2)
Surgical/Extirpate

Any thoughts?

[Ralf]

Alright. Looking to update the sideboard/wishboard a little for this weekend in KC.
Maindeck is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=822175&viewfull=1#post822175
Staying (11):

2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage (maybe maindecking)
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Coming in (1):
Vampire Hexmage aka Jace Killer

Considering:
Nether Void
Wasteland (probably not)
Engineered Plague
Toxic deluge
Warmth vs Burn, Gobbos, Punishing Fire
Helm of Obedience vs Rest in peace decks
Curse of Exhaustion
Enlightened Tutor
Deed #4
Carpet of Flowers (max 2)
Surgical/Extirpate

Any thoughts?

Against what deck do/did you struggle the most ?
(looking forward to reading a report !!!)

I found that Elves is a just a freaking nightmare.
The last report you made, you lost against Elves and BUG, right ?

+2 Toxic deluge -> You already have "Humility" as a huge blowout so I would not play "engineered plague". I guess a Toxic deluge main could be a strong option (putting a deed in the SB) as it is just a full turn quicker than Deed (nice answer to clogged board and can be backbreaking against Elves & BUG).

+1 Helm of Obedience -> Only if you expect a lot of RIP.deck. But I do like the potential blowout !

Considering:

+1 Abrupt decay/Wilt-Leaf Liege/Loxodon smiter/Obstinate baloth/Mirran crusader -> Only if BUG is everywhere. Against BUG tempo, my preference goes to AD/Obstinate Baloth/Loxodon. Against BUG Control (Shardless and others), WLL or Crusader are potential blowouts.

+1 Dark Depths. As you will be playing Vampire Hexmage, this can catch your opponent off guard. I can see it as a potential replacement to Helm. DD coming in games where you expect a strong gravehate (and so -1 volrath). The downside is a 2 card-combo. Anyway, if you are interested in such option, I would also play a one-of Knight of The Reliquary MD (cutting a rector as your enchantment package is ultra light => Moat, deed, SoL).

[Arianrhod]

I'll make a more involved post later, but just a quick thought for you: the only way to beat Elves is to sweep them and then drop something that they can't recover from (ie Deluge -> Plague / Nether Void / Chalice@1 etc). Even then there's still a chance that they just sick rips the Decay for the hate option (since most non-Voids are 3 or under). We usually get to sweep once vs Elves, be it Deluge, G Charm, Deed, or whatnot -- the problem is that since we are a midrange control/combo deck in (almost) all iterations, we can't actively pressure them enough before they rebuild with Glimpse and just go off again, bigger and harder because they have more mana sources in play this time (which usually ends with a hoof to the face). You also have to be aware of Progenitus's existence -- and Elves can still Natural Order through an E.Plague because a lot of their dudes actually have 2 toughness (DRS, Nettle, etc).

Everyone in this thread knows how much of a fan of Nether Void I am, so I'd definitely run one of those. It's awkward, for sure, but it's really the best chance you have to keep them down. They can still go off through it, especially with Cradle, but it'll be much, much harder for them to do, and hopefully you can continue to pile on hateful cards / clock / more sweepers and slam the door before they recover -again- (because they will).

[Ralf]

I'll make a more involved post later, but just a quick thought for you: the only way to beat Elves is to sweep them and then drop something that they can't recover from (ie Deluge -> Plague / Nether Void / Chalice@1 etc).

Everyone in this thread knows how much of a fan of Nether Void I am, so I'd definitely run one of those. It's awkward, for sure, but it's really the best chance you have to keep them down. They can still go off through it, especially with Cradle, but it'll be much, much harder for them to do, and hopefully you can continue to pile on hateful cards / clock / more sweepers and slam the door before they recover -again- (because they will).

I do love Nether Void but I think it is just to narrow.
Jbone has already access to "Humility" (and also "Moat" but it does not stop DRS ping activation).
Humility won't win you games alone, as you will have to cope with a horde of 1/1 (glimpse is alive...) but there will be blood.
Very few elves' list can deal post SB with a Humility on the battlefield.
Once Humility hits, your plan is finding as fast as possible an equipment (BSK here an ALL STAR) to just win. Period.

While I was routing for Toxic Deluge (x2) in SB, Engineered Plague (naming elves) while humility is on the battlefield could help you buying time to dig for Batterskull or to kill him with your 1/1. But sooner or later, it will get decayed...

In any case, that MU really is a nightmare. And with your current settings, I could see a few games against Elves ending on a draw (unable to finish the last one) and most likely the ones involving "Humility".

To speed up the games, you would need:
1) another equipment (jitte but I find it sub-optimal against a horde of 1/1) to increase the odds to actually seeing one equipment (1 batterskull, 1 diabolic intent, 1 jitte for example = 3 ways to get it).
However, I would rather not pack SFM because you are exposing yourself to discard (some elves' list run CT or TS)
2) a mass "pumper" (no way) or a kessig wolf run (not optimal but could deserve some testing) to get the fastest kill between 2 sweepers but you need another creature in hand.
3) a manland (best option ? even if it could be overrun by a horde of 1/1) to get a quick kill between 2 sweepers

[pettdan]

Regarding fighting elves, this spring I was losing a lot against elves in the LGS and the following configuration of cards (pretty much what you're discussing, I also may have posted on this topic earlier this spring) in rock Nic Fit seemed to make the deck favored in the matchup. Reclamation Sage was not available for elves at this time, not sure how much difference it makes.

First the Skull/Humility/Plague cards:
MD:
2 Batterskull
2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB:
1 Engineered Plague
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (also killing the Wirewood Symbiote and good vs Death & Taxes, True Name, Lingering Souls etc; can't be abruptly decayed)
1 Humility

Note that NoSB and Humility form a soft lock which Batterskull can get out on top of.

In addition to above cards the following where good at slowing them down. (Extra) discard to get rid of the first Glimpse of Nature and then Natural Order. Follow up with Gaddock Teeg and/or Spirit of the Labyrinth to shut down top decked Glimpse or Natural Orders (can be tutored for by GSZ/Enlightened Tutor). Or land Plague/NoSB. Humility helps too, didn't consider it very important earlier but with the Reclamation Sage around it seems more important now. Also I notice the dissynergy betwen SotL and NoSB, it's ok I think, you probably want to play SoTL turn 1-3 and NoSB after that.

MD:
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
0-2 Living Wish (for Tabernacle or Spirit of the Labyrinth, not crucial just experimenting and I love tutors/wishes)
0-1 Academy Rector
1-2 Liliana of the Veil
SB:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1? Abrupt Decay
0-1 Liliana of the Veil

I think the setup of cards is flexible, synergistic and valuable in many matchups, as well as taking up few slots. And the following tutor elements help get the right stuff at the right time: 1 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Academy Rector, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, 2 Living Wish.

Changes:
The maindecked Toxic Deluges were very valuable, but should probably be Abrupt Decays in a meta with less elves and tribal than mine (was).
Not sure how valuable Tabernacle is right now, I'd probably skip it.

[jbone2016]

And of course I lose to elves in the first round of the trial.


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[jbone2016]

Lost to esperblade. Moat almost got there.


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[jbone2016]

1-1. Beat tezzerator. Teeg too strong.


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[jbone2016]

Beat lands round 3. Beat miracles round 4. 3-1 now


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[jbone2016]

Drew with bug. Should have won. Beat dredge. 4-1-1


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[Ralf]

Drew with bug. Should have won. Beat dredge. 4-1-1


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How many matches left ?
Go go !!

[jbone2016]

Bah. Lost to 2 bolts against American delver in game 3 when I have lethal on my next turn.


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[jbone2016]

Lost to bug an then beat the leyline deck. 5-3-1. Might top 64.


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[jbone2016]

...and 56th.


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[Ralf]

...and 56th.


Will you write a report, please ?

[whatwas]

JUst got done looking at the walker build and watching the vids. Seems kinda interesting some minor tweaking could make it more viable. The one ofs's of strix and ponder need to be changed out, possiabliy for more walker maybe Kiora maybe even Ashiok. Here is the link with vids if any1 is interested http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28982_Veteran-Walkers.html.
It's a good article, I just finished building the deck last week and I most say it is very fun. I actually beat belcher in the last tournament I played by blowing up deed. I'm thinking about adding a deathrite shaman or 2, I really like ponder in the list but I wanted to try top. I'm so glad when, while reading the article, I clicked on 'let it go' to find a clip of starwars instead of frozen. Hah

[MD.Ghost]

...and 56th.

Gratz!

------

I played other decks for a while but decided to switch back to BUG Pod for the last tournament in a LGS last sunday.

Decklist:

// Deck: BUG Pod (60)

// Lands
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wolfir Silverheart

// Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

// Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy

// Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

// Artifacts
3 Birthing Pod

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Doomwake Giant
SB: 1 Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant

New Card (not only for Elves): Reclamation Sage! Rest is more or less the basic build, an Anti-Combo-Sideboard and a Doomwake Giant (D&T switch with Wolfir Silverheart) and Fleshbag Marauder (against Creature based decks, including Cheat Stuff like Show&Tell). Wolfir Silverheart was the only "test slot", because with Reclamation Sage Pod can cut the clunky Acidic Slime as a 5drop. Wolfir Silverheart can enable more "Power" to your Podchain, because you can pump all the little guys and maybe swing with an unexpected 5/5 Strix. It also works as a backup, if Grave Titan isn't avaible. Finally you can also do some "Deadshot" tricks with Murderous Redcap.

Matchups:

R1 vs Sneak Show 0:2 (No1 - He knows me and my deck and Gitaxian Probe saved his Gameplan, because he know Show&Tell is a bad idea, latter he also won the tournament)

R2 vs Sneak Show 2:0 (No2! - G1 was very grindy and i got Archmage online, G2 i use Image, copy Strix, draw Sage to kill his Sneak Attack right before he topdecks Emrakul, than Swan Song got his Through the Breach, later he plays Show&Tell and i put in Fleshbag Marauder)

R3 vs Sneak Show 1:1 (No3....meta?! G1 was very grindy, because Recurring Nightmare + Archmage bought some turns, but after a couple of "draw 7" he gets me, G2 was also a grind, i managed to use Surgical Extraction vs Sneak Attack, finally Show&Tell vs Venser won the game).

R4 vs MUD 2:0 (G1 Therapy hits 2 Lodestone Golems and Reclamation Sage killed the rest, G2 Sower graps his 8/8 Golem and the team slams him down)

R5 vs Loam Pox (G1 Mulligan 6, 1 Land + Brainstorm + Explorer etc. - he removed Explorer with Inquisition, i draw no land and than he t2 goes Ritual into Nethervoid, i respond with Brainstorm, see no land and we go to G2, grindy as expected, but he breaks my Pod with Pulse and a Liliana's Ultimate + Small Pox killed my last trumph: a fresh Grave Titan, so it was over...)

Last game i had the chance to "win and in", but missed the 5ths place and only got 11th...Top 4 was 3 Show&Tell Decks...

-------
Best Card was Reclamation Sage, easy to find as a 3drop with pod, won me some Games vs Sneak Attack and also showed up vs MUD to kill some Metal.

Sideboard worked good so far (14 cards vs Sneak Show...). Swan Song over Envelop was also right, because sometimes it matters to get also nasty Instants/Enchanments.

Afterall, a lot of fun with Nic Fit (besides the weird meta).

[jbone2016]

Will you write a report, please ?

Sure. I'll try to write it tonight after I look at my notes.

[jbone2016]

Report Time:
Main Board (61)
Dudes
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Scooze.
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Batterskull
non-dudes
3 Tops
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Moat
1 StP
2 Decay
Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Board
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Humility
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 E. Plague
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Warmth

[jbone2016]

Ok...actual report

Round 1 (Esperblade) Judge calls (2 or 3, damn my foreign cards)
Game 1: This game goes 40+ minutes. Involves a Moat which neither of us can get past (my Baneslayer got swords which I knew about and I couldn't find my Sigarda) He finally gets a Council's judgment to deal with the Moat and TNN seals the deal.
In: Pridemage, Deluge, Plague, TSx2
Out: ?
Game 2: No way to get anything together that fast to win.
0-1 (0-2) 4 SCG Legacy opens in a row starting with loss.

Round 2 (Tezzeret)
Game 1: We both mull. Him to 6, Me to 5. First action is my GSZ for a Teeg.....and he pretty much scoops. I only deltas and basic land, so I have no clue.
In: TSx2, Trapsx2
Out:
Game 2: Land the Teeg on turn 2 and slowly beat down with stuff. I intented my rector into a decay to kill a strix. Seemed good
1-1 (2-2) 2 Mulls

Round 3 (Lands)
Game 1: I flood the board with more creatures then he has maze of ith's (which was 3 at one point)
In: Humility, Leyline of the Void
Out:
Game 2: We play the cripple fight with humility on board. He is recurring dark depths every turn with crucible while I bring back something with volrath's stronghold. Krosan grip ends this fast.
Game 3: I get an ooze out on turn 2 and he fires it. I get Thrun out. He ends up ee for 4 and kills it. :(. I land a tusk and then a sigarda to finish him just in time.
2-1 (4-3)

Round 4(Cheater Miracles)
Game 1: We jockey for position while I start to beat down a little. Sigarda lands and starts to beat down. They try to terminus but I have the tower/stronghold combo to not lose my sigarda.
In: TSx2, Pridemage
Out: Rector x1, Vet x2?
Game 2: Sigarda comes down fairly early (after they tap out for Keranos after I attempted a batterskull which got counterspelled) but I'm facing a Keranos that becomes active with 2 counterbalances and a v. clique. I'm at 8, and they are at 8 and I attack with my sigarda to put them to 3. Keranos trigger put me to 5, they attack for the win....but I kill the clique with the decay I've been floating with my top. They dig for an answer....and don't find one.
3-1 (5-3) 3 mulls

Round 5 (BUG)
Game 1: I mulligan twice....and then gets thoughtseize on the draw. enough said.
In: TSx2, Leyline of the Void, Deluge
Out : Rector x1, Teeg + ?
Game 2: TS into therapy and Explorer leads to a early Thrun and then a deed to clean up.
Game 3: I open with the Void. Slowed down his goyfs and DRS. Time gets called. I'm at 6 and he's at 13. I have a sigarda vs. flipped delver. I thought he had a card in hand, so I was fearing a v. clique. I pass. he gets a goyf. turn 3: I get a baneslayer and attack. turn 4: he stays put. turn 5: the draw is....a blank. Draw. I attack Sigarda on turn 1, I win. Or removal.
3-1-1 (6-4-1) 4 mulls

Round 6 (Dredge)
Game 1: He almost goes off on turn 3. Has a therapy in the yard with several bridges and creatures in play but no dread return. I go living wish into bog you. Then deed away the board in turns. He almost rebuilds before getting decked.
In: Void, Bog (mistake), Canonist, e. Plague
Out: Spirit, stp,? ? ?
Game 2: He therapies 2 living wish away on turn 1.....but hits no dredges for several turns of digging. Ooze eats his chances away.
4-1-1 (8-4-1)

Round 7 (American Delver)
Game 1: Some early discard sees what he is on, I have batterskull but he gets a TNN out. Stalls for a little while until a deed and Tusk cleans up
In: Pridemage, Plague, Deluge. ts?
Out: Teeg, ?, ?
Game 2: I get wasted out of the game before I do anything really.
Game 3. Crazy game. Both mull to 6. I have a chance to kill a jitte with a decay but I kill the flipped delver....with a deluge in my hand. He gets jitte to 4 counters and has a SFM to it. I have to deluge for freaking 10 to kill it. I have a stronghold in play with explorer in my yard but I know he has a bolt and a skull. He gets a delver with jitte on it now. My draw...rector with a tower in play. Deed for 2. Go. His turn: land, skull. My turn.......rector, deed for 5, go. His draw land. Mine, top, spin, flip....GSZ....for sigarda...fearing the bolt would kill my tusk....which seems bad afterwards with the stronghold....and I'm at 4. him land. Go. Me, draw a therapy. Attack to 9. go. him land. go. me. Baneslayer, attack him to 4. go. him. bolt bolt for the win. Crap.
4-2-1 (9-6-1) 6 mulls

Round 8 (BUG Delver)
Game 1: Comes down to a Sigarda vs. Lilly and tombstalker. I'm winning the damage race at this point, so he deluge's for 5 to clear the board and keeps ticking up lily. Deed comes out to clear the board and puts a threat on the table. he edicts.plays a delver I play a thrun, he edicts again which kills lily. delver flips. I go to 6, then play my batterskull. Which he can't race. He had discarded a dismember earlier to lily which would have won him the game.
In: TSx2, deluge
Out: Teeg, rector, ?
Game 2: I never get any footing a die fairly quickly to 2 goyfs.
Game 3: Same as game 2.
4-3-1 (10-8-1)

Round 9 (Leylines)
I figured I would play one of these rounds
Game 1: He mulls 3 times (twice with powder) and keeps a hand with no lands.....but a leyline of the void.
I therapy him a couple of times while he never actually drew a land. Baneslayer beat him pretty hard.
In: Pridemage, Deluge, TSx2, not humility
Out: Spirit, ? ? ?
Game 2: He keeps 7, 3 leylines but no void or sanctity.
No land drop and passes. I end up ripping his hand apart and have a baneslayer on turn 3.
5-3-1 (12-8-1)

Time for some sleep. Questions/comments/gripes? Also, HoneyT? How did you finish?

[Ralf]

Ok...actual report

Round 1 (Esperblade) Judge calls (2 or 3, damn my foreign cards)
Game 1: This game goes 40+ minutes. Involves a Moat which neither of us can get past (my Baneslayer got swords which I knew about and I couldn't find my Sigarda) He finally gets a Council's judgment to deal with the Moat and TNN seals the deal.
In: Pridemage, Deluge, Plague, TSx2
Out: ?
Game 2: No way to get anything together that fast to win.
0-1 (0-2) 4 SCG Legacy opens in a row starting with loss.

Round 2 (Tezzeret)
Game 1: We both mull. Him to 6, Me to 5. First action is my GSZ for a Teeg.....and he pretty much scoops. I only deltas and basic land, so I have no clue.
In: TSx2, Trapsx2
Out:
Game 2: Land the Teeg on turn 2 and slowly beat down with stuff. I intented my rector into a decay to kill a strix. Seemed good
1-1 (2-2) 2 Mulls

Round 3 (Lands)
Game 1: I flood the board with more creatures then he has maze of ith's (which was 3 at one point)
In: Humility, Leyline of the Void
Out:
Game 2: We play the cripple fight with humility on board. He is recurring dark depths every turn with crucible while I bring back something with volrath's stronghold. Krosan grip ends this fast.
Game 3: I get an ooze out on turn 2 and he fires it. I get Thrun out. He ends up ee for 4 and kills it. :(. I land a tusk and then a sigarda to finish him just in time.
2-1 (4-3)

Round 4(Cheater Miracles)
Game 1: We jockey for position while I start to beat down a little. Sigarda lands and starts to beat down. They try to terminus but I have the tower/stronghold combo to not lose my sigarda.
In: TSx2, Pridemage
Out: Rector x1, Vet x2?
Game 2: Sigarda comes down fairly early (after they tap out for Keranos after I attempted a batterskull which got counterspelled) but I'm facing a Keranos that becomes active with 2 counterbalances and a v. clique. I'm at 8, and they are at 8 and I attack with my sigarda to put them to 3. Keranos trigger put me to 5, they attack for the win....but I kill the clique with the decay I've been floating with my top. They dig for an answer....and don't find one.
3-1 (5-3) 3 mulls

Round 5 (BUG)
Game 1: I mulligan twice....and then gets thoughtseize on the draw. enough said.
In: TSx2, Leyline of the Void, Deluge
Out : Rector x1, Teeg + ?
Game 2: TS into therapy and Explorer leads to a early Thrun and then a deed to clean up.
Game 3: I open with the Void. Slowed down his goyfs and DRS. Time gets called. I'm at 6 and he's at 13. I have a sigarda vs. flipped delver. I thought he had a card in hand, so I was fearing a v. clique. I pass. he gets a goyf. turn 3: I get a baneslayer and attack. turn 4: he stays put. turn 5: the draw is....a blank. Draw. I attack Sigarda on turn 1, I win. Or removal.
3-1-1 (6-4-1) 4 mulls

Round 6 (Dredge)
Game 1: He almost goes off on turn 3. Has a therapy in the yard with several bridges and creatures in play but no dread return. I go living wish into bog you. Then deed away the board in turns. He almost rebuilds before getting decked.
In: Void, Bog (mistake), Canonist, e. Plague
Out: Spirit, stp,? ? ?
Game 2: He therapies 2 living wish away on turn 1.....but hits no dredges for several turns of digging. Ooze eats his chances away.
4-1-1 (8-4-1)

Round 7 (American Delver)
Game 1: Some early discard sees what he is on, I have batterskull but he gets a TNN out. Stalls for a little while until a deed and Tusk cleans up
In: Pridemage, Plague, Deluge. ts?
Out: Teeg, ?, ?
Game 2: I get wasted out of the game before I do anything really.
Game 3. Crazy game. Both mull to 6. I have a chance to kill a jitte with a decay but I kill the flipped delver....with a deluge in my hand. He gets jitte to 4 counters and has a SFM to it. I have to deluge for freaking 10 to kill it. I have a stronghold in play with explorer in my yard but I know he has a bolt and a skull. He gets a delver with jitte on it now. My draw...rector with a tower in play. Deed for 2. Go. His turn: land, skull. My turn.......rector, deed for 5, go. His draw land. Mine, top, spin, flip....GSZ....for sigarda...fearing the bolt would kill my tusk....which seems bad afterwards with the stronghold....and I'm at 4. him land. Go. Me, draw a therapy. Attack to 9. go. him land. go. me. Baneslayer, attack him to 4. go. him. bolt bolt for the win. Crap.
4-2-1 (9-6-1) 6 mulls

Round 8 (BUG Delver)
Game 1: Comes down to a Sigarda vs. Lilly and tombstalker. I'm winning the damage race at this point, so he deluge's for 5 to clear the board and keeps ticking up lily. Deed comes out to clear the board and puts a threat on the table. he edicts.plays a delver I play a thrun, he edicts again which kills lily. delver flips. I go to 6, then play my batterskull. Which he can't race. He had discarded a dismember earlier to lily which would have won him the game.
In: TSx2, deluge
Out: Teeg, rector, ?
Game 2: I never get any footing a die fairly quickly to 2 goyfs.
Game 3: Same as game 2.
4-3-1 (10-8-1)

Round 9 (Leylines)
I figured I would play one of these rounds
Game 1: He mulls 3 times (twice with powder) and keeps a hand with no lands.....but a leyline of the void.
I therapy him a couple of times while he never actually drew a land. Baneslayer beat him pretty hard.
In: Pridemage, Deluge, TSx2, not humility
Out: Spirit, ? ? ?
Game 2: He keeps 7, 3 leylines but no void or sanctity.
No land drop and passes. I end up ripping his hand apart and have a baneslayer on turn 3.
5-3-1 (12-8-1)

Time for some sleep. Questions/comments/gripes? Also, HoneyT? How did you finish?

Thanks for sharing mister !
As I read your report, you made some difficult choices which ended in draw/loss where you could have caught wins.

Except for dredge, no combo, lucky you !

[enemyofarsenic]

Report Time:
Main Board (61)
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Scooze.
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun
3 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Batterskull
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Moat
1 StP
2 Decay
Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Board
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Humility
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 E. Plague
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Warmth

Is it me or are you missing 3 cards from your main?

[jbone2016]

4 actually. 3 tops and a maelstrom pulse.


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[Elfkid]

Hi there guys^^

I'm very interested about a punishing nicfit decklist, but I only see lists with white and blue :-(

Someone can send me deck lists please?^^

And one question, is white the splash we are looking for? It's viable build a Jund pod fit? (It sounds bad I know)

Regards!

[Mr Miagi]

Hi there guys^^

I'm very interested about a punishing nicfit decklist, but I only see lists with white and blue :-(

Someone can send me deck lists please?^^

And one question, is white the splash we are looking for? It's viable build a Jund pod fit? (It sounds bad I know)

Regards!

Helo fellow Nic-Fit (want-to-be) player! :smile:

I don't really know why there's not more Jund Nic-Fit players out there. Here's decklist I've been rocking with quite some sucess:

4 Veteran explorer
4 Green suns' zenith
4 Cabal therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the veil
3 Punishing fire
3 Sensei's divining top
2 Abrupt decay
1 Maelstrom pulse
2 Eternal witness
2 Scavenging ooze
1 Thrun the last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Huntmaster of the fells
1 Batterskull
3 Pernicious deed
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Wooded foothills
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Forest
1 Dryad arbor
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold


Sideboard
1 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
1 Golgari charm
3 Surgical extraction
3 Carpet of flowers
1 Abrupt decay
3 Flexible slots (maybe 4th Carpet, 4th Liliana,1 more single mana discard, maybe some Karakas if you are afraid of the boogey monsters, 0-3 Slaughter games)

Som comments and general pointers:

Deck is certainly strong and capable of winning, but truth be told, it's very slow deck and you have to play fast, or at least take this into consideration (and not allow oponents to play slow, which tends to happen when they overthink their plays against a deck they don't know so good).

Except for the following decks: Elves (darn Natural order), Sneak and Show, 12 post and to some degree storm combo (if you don't hit enough discard or they have the nuts.. and this is non-force of will deck), burn (if they are really fast), Reanimator (especailly pre-board), lands (who plays this anymore??) can be a tad hard to beat, I found any other deck to be a favourable match-up.

If you look closely I play 61 cards.. I just can't decide what to cut.. There's also a singleton Dryad arbor in the list, which I hate with all my heart, but is so often a necessary evil against combo deck when you wiff with cabal therapy and you just need to flash it back just not to die the next turn. That is where you fetch it or zenith for it.

Some might also question the batterskull, especaills since you cannot zenith for it, but I've been very pleased with it. You could consider 2nd Tusk or even Broodmate dragon instead, or maybe 2nd Huntmaster, but... I've found 1 Tusk to be sufficeint, same with Huntmaster and Broodmate although I've been playing it for a long time in my deck I found it to be an overkill. It's still 6 mana and with zenith 7 mana and you feel really silly when you have to play such an expensive spell into daze/spellpierce.. That is why I like my batterskull here :) Some people play Garruk, but... I'm not a fan. 4th Lili in the main does not sound so bad also.
If you really want to cut the Dryad arbor (you almost never really zenith for it on first turn!) I would add another fetch for shuffle value with Top - you need it, there are times when you're just stuck with bad tops.

And don't forget you get bonus points for fetching EOT for Dryad arbor, equipping it to Batterskull and attacking for the win :cool::laugh:

All in all this is a fun, tier 1,5 deck that has a lot of good match-up, but often then not falls short (especially pre-board) to combo decks.

[jbone2016]

Helo fellow Nic-Fit (want-to-be) player! :smile:

"SNIP"
If you look closely I play 61 cards.. I just can't decide what to cut.. There's also a singleton Dryad arbor in the list, which I hate with all my heart, but is so often a necessary evil against combo deck when you wiff cabal therapy and you just need to flash it abck just not to die the next turn. That is where you fetch it or flas it back.

Some might also question the batterskull, especaills since you cannot zenith for it, but I've been very pleased with it. You could consider 2nd Tusk or even Broodmate dragon instead, or maybe 2nd Huntmaster, but... I've found 1 Tusk to be sufficeint, same with Huntmaster and Broodmate although I've been playing it for a long time in my deck I found it to be an overkill. It's still 6 mana and with zenith 7 mana and you feel really silly when you have to play such an expensive spell into daze/spellpierce.. That is why I like my batterskull here :) Some people play Garruk, but... I'm not a fan. 4th Lili in the main does not sound so bad also.
If you really want to cut the Dryad arbor (you almost never really zenith for it on first turn!) I would add another fetch for shuffle value with Top - you need it, there are times when you're just stuck with bad tops.

And don't forget you get bonus points for fetching EOT for Dryad arbor, equipping it to Batterskull and attacking for the win :cool::laugh:

All in all this is a fun, tier 1,5 deck that has a lot of good match-up, but often then not falls short (especially pre-board) to combo decks.

I feel it is quite correct to play 61 cards in this deck. Between the vets getting basics or GSZ getting dudes (or rector getting enchantments) or tops, the card quality is much better then the average non-blue deck.

I consider HoneyT to be an expert on the Pfire list.

[HoneyT]

Since there seems to be some interest, here's the list I ran at SCG KC:

Punishing Nic Fit

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Finished X-3 but don't let that fool you. The list is 100% optimal for the current metagame. My losses came to a punt on my part game 3 vs Storm, RUG Delver god-hands, and mana screw against UWR Delver when I kept an unbeatable Top + 2 lands and never saw a third land in our 8 turn game.

It sucked losing to 3 matchups I consider favorable (especially when one was totally my fault) but that's why we play the games. The list was perfect, sometimes variance happens though.

[Arianrhod]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29032_Daily-Digest-Legacys-Allure.html

This is sweet. I disagree with a couple of its premises, but it's a pretty nifty hybrid.

I tested vs UWR Delver a bit last night with my current build of Scapewish and have determined a few conclusions:

(list for reference)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Kessig Wolf Run

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

--) Batterskull, despite my love affair with it, is bad in Scapewish. It took me a while to process why this is the case.

Scapewish is at its strongest on turns 3-6, otherwise known as the midgame. In the midgame you can leverage your powerful nicfit-enabled options to overpower the opponent, drowning their removal and counters because everything that you have it better than everything that they have. Somewhere towards the end of this phase of the game, you attempt to resolve a 4-mana sorcery and win the game on the spot.

After turn 6 or so, though, blue decks can leverage their card advantage more than Scapewish can -- it starts to draw lands, useless therapies and ramp creatures, and such. Yes, Scape can recover from this with a Top -- but the fact is that blue decks in their current configuration are able to overcome and out lategame Scapewish. Most of the blame for this can be placed squarely on the shoulders of True Name Nemesis. For example, I had a Batterskull vs his Batterskull for a while last night -- and then he just drew a True Name and I lost. The same thing happened with Jitte another game. Another game still, I lost the Batterskull slapfight because he Brainstormed into a Delver, which then flipped and gave him a flying 7/6 lifelink vig.

This is not even mentioning that getting into a Batterskull slapfight at all is not what Scapewish wants, because at some point you're just not going to be able to Shift them anymore. I was perpetually put into a position where I needed 8 lands to shift, sometimes 9 or 10 -- and usually by that point I was running low on mountains in deck.

Conclusion: Scapewish needs either a heftier lategame or an even more powerful midgame to be able to compete with the current iteration of blue decks.

--) The third maindeck Scapeshift is correct.

I had tested this a while ago and eventually cut it in favor of space for a 2-of (rather than only have one open slot). There were times where I'd be choked on multiple Scapeshifts in hand and not have enough lands to actually win yet, rendering them dead. That being said, I was drawing Scapeshift in general with much more regularity and winning games because of it. Sometimes you even have the ability to double-shift -- just run one straight into a Force and proceed to win anyway. This decision plays into the above comment about a more powerful midgame. It increases the deck's consistency another notch, which is something that we periodically can struggle with.

Conclusion: 7 Scapeshifts is better than 6.

--) Wolf Run's existence.

I grapple with this card so much. On paper it always looks amazing and in practice it's always terrible. Like even in theory it's like, oh my god, this is exactly what we want to be doing. It makes all of our ramp dorks threats lategame, which is amazing. It gives Thrag trample. It comes with Primeval Titan and threatens a 2-turn clock if Titan is not answered immediately. It does all of these things.

And yet it does nothing.

You need a creature + Wolf Run itself + 5-6 other lands in play, all at the same time, for Wolf Run to do literal anything. In Punishing Nic Fit, it's a different story because 1: you're a true control deck, which satisfies the latter two conditions, and 2: you're playing Thrun, which all but guarantees the first condition.

In Scapewish, though, you don't have lategame aspirations. You want to end the game by turn 8 at the absolute outside. You won't have time to amass a pile of lands (slash your opponents will actively be trying to stop you from doing such), and you won't have time to draw into Wolf Run. Furthermore, none of your creatures are exactly hale. Titan is the only real beef -- Thrag dies to Bolt and 90% of legacy playable creatures, and Huntmaster dies to even more things. I had an active Wolf Run and could run for 4 at one point last night -- in the face of my opponent's Grim Lavamancer.

Conclusion: Wolf Run is a fine card for a certain class of deck. Scapewish is not in that class of deck.

--) Speaking of Huntmaster...

You may notice that I cut down to 2 Huntmasters, which is something that I said I would never do again the last time I tried it. It was actually fine. I still saw him a reasonable amount. I could still Zenith for him when needed. Etc.

I think that this is mostly a metashift caused by True Name. Huntmaster was crazy good pre-TNN. He's still good now, but he's definitely not -as- good as he once was. I won't cut another Huntmaster, but I'm fine with where he's at now.

Conclusion: 2 Huntmasters is correct for the current meta. Possibly for quite a while pending TNN.

I don't have adequate answers for these problems at the moment. At this time, I consider this change:

-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Scapeshift

to be canon. That gives us this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 open slots

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

What the two maindeck open slots should be, I have no idea. I'm skeptical of adding in more lategame oomph because there is a rather large contingent of Delver decks (Bug / Rug) still present in the meta, and obviously combo decks don't care about lategame. However, if we add in more midgame power, it's going to make us substantially worse if we do go lategame.

-----------------

With this being considered, I think that I'm going to go back very far in my roots and play Rector at the Tales of Adventure huge event on Saturday. I'm very hungry for a top 8, both because I haven't top 8'd an event for a while due to moving and because I would very, very much like to add to my power (I'm at 5/9 right now).

I need to hammer out the list, which I will probably do over the course of the day. Expect another post from me with that later this afternoon.

[Ralf]

I don't have adequate answers for these problems at the moment. At this time, I consider this change:

-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Scapeshift

to be canon. That gives us this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 open slots

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm

What the two maindeck open slots should be, I have no idea. I'm skeptical of adding in more lategame oomph because there is a rather large contingent of Delver decks (Bug / Rug) still present in the meta, and obviously combo decks don't care about lategame. However, if we add in more midgame power, it's going to make us substantially worse if we do go lategame.


Variance is a thing...Moreso in a deck without cantrips/additional draws.
I had a bunch of X-3 results and a semi final with scape a few months ago. But, I would still lose X games, either due to combo.decks or to the inherent deck's mechanism where you need business spells and you see 5 lands (no fetches) of the top during 3 turns (not to mention X losses coming from not finding the Scape for the win)...

I guess 24 lands is a tad "much" in a deck not playing "brainstorm/ponder". I have tried my best but in order to trim some lands:
1) you have to drop a color and this color has to be the black one. But then, the BW package is no longer as powerful...
2) Or you have to replace "black" by "blue" (like in Modern)

[Arianrhod]

You may be a genius.

[Ralf]

You may be a genius.

If only... But maybe we could think of (and I can put some hard testing work behind) a RUG scape list viable in Legacy ?

EDIT: I started back Legacy with one of your scape.list (2 years ago)...damn it feels so good scaping some fools out of nowhere !

[Arianrhod]

If only... But maybe we could think of (and I can put some hard testing work behind) a RUG scape list viable in Legacy ?

EDIT: I started back Legacy with one of your scape.list (2 years ago)...damn it feels so good scaping some fools out of nowhere !

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Crack the Earth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1
1 Scapeshift
1
1 Life's Legacy
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm

This is my initial sketch. Note that this is mostly just taking my Scapewish list and shifting black to blue. Some of the changes are easy, like moving Therapy -> Crack the Earth. Others, like trying to replace Pernicious Deed, are not so easy.

We also need a way to fight counterspells better because we can't Therapy->Shift. Maybe maindeck the Glens?

Also, the sideboard / wishboard will need to be completely redone basically. We also don't have Innocent Blood anymore for the easy Wish->sacoutlet. I think there has to be something better than Life's Legacy, but maybe not. Maybe just cantripping while saccing an Explorer is good enough for 1R+1G?

Still, the idea needs explored for sure. Gaining Brainstorm would be MASSIVE in a deck like this.

[Ralf]

Still, the idea needs explored for sure. Gaining Brainstorm would be MASSIVE in a deck like this.

Yes, the idea has to be explored.
Few cards that might be interesting (I forgot about crack the earth...):
- Rapid hybridization (another way to get rid of veteran/annoying crit)
- Cryptic command/Remand
- Vexing Susher (if you want your scape uncounterable)
- Pyroclasm / Devastation tide (the new deed ?)
- Cunning wish/Living wish/burning wish -> which one is the best ?
- FOW (if your blue count reaches 20 cards ?)

My gut feeling is that we shouldn't durdle anymore. Adding blue is to speed up the deck and improve its consistency. Maybe a T4 & T5 protected kill could be an option ?