[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Qweerios]

+1 for Richard Cheese on Living Wish vs. GSZ.

There is no point in playing Wish over GSZ when one puts creatures into play for cheaper while the other puts creatures into your hand for twice the cost. Also, when confronted with a blue deck, they tend to side out FoW in favor of Spell Snare once they see Hymns and realize we are a control deck hellbent on card advantage. Slowing down our GSZ and opening them to Spell Snare is definitely a bad idea.

As for Batterskull vs. Titans/Planeswalkers, I think that choosing something like Baneslayer Angel over a Bskull completely misses the point. Angel is vulnerable to creature removal, Bskull isn't. The size of Bskull and lifelink is not an issue when the purpose of the "bomb" is to reliably finish your opponent. In the same way that Hermit Druid is often better than Grave Titan, the harder it is for your opponent to stop your finisher, the better it is. Bskull is relentless and extremely hard to remove once you have lots of mana floating, its lifelink ability is the cherry on the sundae.

[Arianrhod]

I actually like BSkull. Qweerios has some good points. I don't think it's something that I'll do, but the concept seems solid theoretically.

Also, I also +1 Richard Cheese. Wish is stupid good when the meta is right for it, and that is definitely not now. Maybe in a non-Snare dominated meta, Wish would be worth running as a 2-of or so in addition to GSZ, but definitely -not- as a replacement to GSZ. Besides, there's something to be said for just drawing our bombs naturally in the course of a game without having to Zenith for them. Moving them to the sideboard for Wish means that we don't have that ability anymore.

[Theonlyone]

I've been wondering about the mirror. Wich version is the best against the mirror? I guess it's the bgw because of the recurring nightmare loop and academy rectors but I'm not sure.

[from Cairo]

I think the match would tend to favor the White splash list, but I think it probably comes down to what kind of action each player gets more-so than specific builds. IE Cabal Therapy/Hymns, Witnesses/GSZ, SDT, Planeswalkers and bombs (Rec Nightmare, Skeletal Scrying) seem like defining cards of the match up and are available to both GB and GBw.

There are a lot of deadish draws in the mirror - Deed, Explorer, one's Disenchant guy, for the GB version - GftT and Dismember are pretty lacking, etc. If one player lands an early Sensei's Divining Top I feel the game swings pretty heavily in their favor.

Postboard Extirpate/Surgical Extraction and Pithing Needle seem like good additions, again available to both variations. Perhaps one could out tech the mirror boarding Sylvan Library, giving that player the option to Needle Top and hope the opponent has skimped back on their Deed count.

[Qweerios]

In the mirror, a version with StP vs. a version without is heavily favoring the white splash. There is a lot of value out of being able to exile creatures continuously as opposed to destroying them. All of the mirror matches I've played so far revolve around early discard and who can find a Top first.

[Qweerios]

For those playing Rector, would Lethal Vapors be any good? It looks pretty good with Thrun.

[sdematt]

Lethal Vapours + Needle, obviously :P

-Matt

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'd say at first blush that Lethal Vapors looks like the danger of cool things, but honestly I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to be any kind of expert on the Academy Rector version of this deck.

Actually, could someone who uses Rector extol its virtues to me? Like, what matchups does it help with, and what cards/strategies is it weak to (besides StP :wink: ) And what does your main deck Rector toolbox look like?

[sap]

first of all i want to thank Tao, TheArchitect, Qweerios and Arianrhod for their help on page 23, it helped me a lot and i've since had great success against burn, counter burn and jace.dec (pretty much the mtgo meta).


I'd say at first blush that Lethal Vapors looks like the danger of cool things, but honestly I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to be any kind of expert on the Academy Rector version of this deck.

Actually, could someone who uses Rector extol its virtues to me? Like, what matchups does it help with, and what cards/strategies is it weak to (besides StP :wink: ) And what does your main deck Rector toolbox look like?

im by no means an expert on this deck, not even close. i have tho played dozens of games with this deck against all the type of decks (MTGO), and im still learning (i think this deck has a pretty high skill cap) but ill share what i know:

i run the BWG version mainly because of swords to plowshares, and ive played both versions with and without birthing pod and i got to say, i dont know how people can play this deck without it, it just wins games by itself many times the turn it comes into play. also doesnt require to keep the toolbox heavy on the green creatures and MOST important it gets academy rector

before birthing pod, rector was just sub-par because i didnt have any way to get it, being a singleton it was really hard to get it when needed so it seemed really weak (i even tried removing it and adding a 4th pernicious deed).

i also ran 16 creatures, and in my opinion this is too low, i feel this deck is a zenith creature control as in the creatures are the spells that provide the control (besides being threats), i was on top deck mode mos of the games and most of the time i never drew the right creature.

i feel the minimum amount is 18 creatures, no matter what version you're running, i run 20 creatures on the birthing pod version and ive been having really great results, i feel that most of my losses are due to some kind of missplay by me and not by having a weak deck.

also academy rector + birthing pod made rector go from a sub-par card to one of the most importants in the deck, my rector toolbox is:
1 recurring nightmare
2 pernicious deed (yes 2, now that i can get the rector so easily i dont need more than2 , also with 20 creatures every slot is precious).
1 oblivion ring this guy usually gets out for Faith's Fetters, still cant decide which one to keep on MD

sd:
1 circle of protection: red
2 leyline of sanctity
1 Faith's Fetters

there are a lot of other cute enchantments (read broken) that can be abused with rector, but most of the time they're just win more cards so i feel like these are good for now.

birthing pod its really insane btw, gets titans (sun titan is so awsome, especially if you run liliana of the veil such sinergy) and its an easy card to sideout against burn or something.
living wish is bad imo, its slow doesnt do anything by itsel, just awful at least for this deck. birthing pod made me go from 2 to 1 phyrexian tower, before i was really sick of not getting a sac outlet and/or a creature "searcher", im just having way better results with it!

awsome deck!

EDIT: is sensei's divining top really necessary? i only run 2 but i find myself sideboarding it out so many times, also (once again) birthing pod seems to do a good job replacing it.
EDIT2: what about the new creature Strangleroot Geist for a 2cc spot? its fast, can be sacced all day to recurring nightmare and/or birthing pod.

[Arianrhod]

Rector's main strength is that it gives the deck an additional avenue of attack, while synerigizing with what the deck wants to be doing in the first place (Recurring Nightmare, especially). It also gives us more things to sacrifice to feed Therapies and Towers, as well as Garruk Relentless (which is much stronger in a Rector version, as it provides another solid way to flip him). My maindeck Rector targets are as follows (with 3 Rectors):

3 Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Moat
1 Faith's Fetters

This allows Rectors to turn into sweeper, OP engine, card draw, ****aggro, and spot removal. Fetters in particular is amazing, since it shuts down Jace in a way that few cards can. It also comes in attached to the permanent, which means that if they do not bounce batterskull in response to the trigger, they don't have another opportunity. Likewise, Rectoring in a Fetters stops Emrakul, which is another problem that the deck has. Having access to Moat is a wonderful thing, because although Delver exists now, and Maverick is a deck, Moat still kolds a lot of the format. Moat also stops Geist, which is proving increasingly relevant to the format. I don't think I need to say anything about the other enchantments, although I will say that I believe 3 Deeds is the correct number, even with the additional tutoring of Rector.

Rector also helps with sideboard hate. Blue decks really hate it when you Rector in a Choke, for example. In that light, it functions as an Enlightened Tutor, but one that isn't vulnerable to counterspells. At the point at which Rector resolves, it's going to do something that they don't like. And considering how much of the deck is must-counter, they're probably going to be out by that point.

The only real weakness of Rector is graveyard hate in response to its trigger, assuming that you're playing it carefully with regards to Swords (ie, having a Therapy at the ready, or a way to kill it that turn if they're tapped out//if the way is clear through discard). Most decks don't seem to have any way of really stopping it, and sometimes it performs as copies 2-4 of Moat, since many players simply will -not- attack into it, just in case.

Also: I think that Lethal Vapors is vastly too cute. Half the time, they'll accept the Time Walk because they don't have anything else going on anyway, or a blue deck will just laugh and sit on their counters and brainstorms.

[guelahpapyrus]

@ Sap: Would you mind posting or PMing a decklist? You've sold me pretty well on pod; I'm interested to see exactly what you're running.

[sap]

@ Sap: Would you mind posting or PMing a decklist? You've sold me pretty well on pod; I'm interested to see exactly what you're running.
sure thing:


Creatures (order by CMC):
1 dryad arbor

4 veteran explorer

1 qasali pridemage
1 scavenging ooze

2 eternal witness
1 bone shredder
1 kitchen finks

1 academy rector
1 thrun, the last troll

1 deranged hermit
1 reveillark (this guy.. maybe win more but when it works its GG)
1 shriekmaw

1 grave titan
1 sun titan

Other Spells:
2 sensei's divining top (under testing, seems to be sidedout every game..)
4 cabal therapy
3 swords to plowshares
2 pernicious deed
1 recurring nightmare
3 birthing pod
4 green sun's zenith
2 liliana of the veil

Lands:
1 savannah
2 windswept heath
2 marsh flats
1 scrubland
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 plains
2 swamp
4 forest
1 phyrexian tower

Sideboard (under constant tweaking):
1 swords to plowshares
1 duress
3 extirpate
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 maelstrom pulse
1 phyrexian metamorph
2 damnation
1 faith's fetters
1 circle of protection: red
2 leyline of sanctity

keep in mind im no PRO, i just feel this build is the best so far against the MTGO meta (burn, jace.deck, counterburn).
also i try to keep a balanced CMC of creatures (because of birthing pod CMC + 1 thingy), even tho the 2cc slot is lacking.

[Qweerios]

Death and Taxe with Ghost Quarter, Leonin Arbiter, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a pretty rough matchup. Along with Wastelands, StP, Fiend Hunter, and Mangara, getting lands into play or an explorer to trigger is complicated stuff...

[Koby]

Good thing that Virtue's Ruin exists then. Why play fair, when you can just hose them? [also hits all the relevant Maverick creatures, for the same low cost as Deed]

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Spell Snare is the only practical reason to run GSZ over Living Wish I've heard.

OTOH ripping out the mediocre GSZ targets clears up more room for removal and discard so you should be crushing the decks running Spell Snare anyway.

The problem with GSZ in a deck like this is that all of your targets are basically mediocre Grizzly Bears and Trained Armadons with abilities, and you're not Maverick. You don't have the semi-aggressive game plan to pull off and you don't have equipment to make everyone relevant.

Wish also lets you play cards that exploit Explorer's mana accel, like Grave Titan, without raw-drawing them when they're dead cards in hand.

And as I said it lets you run 4x Top, 4x Hymn etc. which you really want to do.

Also either Grave-shell Scarab or Gigapede seem a lot better in this deck than Batterskull, since they don't eat it to counters, discard, removal, Krosan Grips, etc.. Batterskull is decent without SFM but suboptimal and worse than other options available.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Living Wish sounds honestly amazing. Never really considered it. GSZ is way stronger in a vacuum but in this Wish might just be better. The Wishboard would probably be like Genesis, Disenchant guy, Shriekmaw, 1-2 Yardhate guys (Ooze, Macabre, Bog), Lifegain guy (Tree of Redemption).

My last Configuration:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Treetop Village
3 Twilight Mire

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
2 Darkblast
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Eternal Witness
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

SB:

2 Cabal Therapy
Wish Targets:
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

[Richard Cheese]

I think you're still underestimating the importance of 3-4 more copies of Explorer in the deck, and of having the option to draw into your threats, especially in a deck already running 2-3 Tops. The deck has slow starts as it is, and personally I think the difference between 0 and 1 extra mana and guaranteed 2 extra could be a big deal. Maybe a GSZ/Wish split, but then you're getting away from the whole purpose of freeing spots up.

That could just be me though, as I've said before I don't really want my whole plan to hinge on getting an Explorer in the yard, so I've tried to keep my list to creatures that I can cast somewhat reliably without them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If I could run any number of Explorers I might run an additional two. It can be really painful to accelerate your opponents' planeswalkers/equipment, so it is indeed a double edged tool, although its benefits outweigh it gains; and it is after all a mana slot.

Obviously GSZ offers a bit more flexibility, but at the cost of diluting your maindeck. I've yet to see a list of the deck that ran an acceptable number of good, solid staples to give it early game; things like 2 or 3 of Top or Hymn seem common, or under 4 early removal, or even less than a full set of Deeds.

Like Caleb's Invitaitonal list clogged up a full 8 slots with situationally weak or dead cards that might've been the other two tops, fourth Hymn, fourth Deed and and four more slots yet to play around with. 9 including Dryad Arbor which is fucking terrible for this deck's strategy.

I mean the greatest strengths over Wish are an extra shuffle effect for Top and dodging Spell Snare, but I don't think that's sufficient to run such an inconsistent list. I notice this in Maverick too. A lot of players that aren't running Brainstorm and Ponder and Jace are entirely too fond of running a lot of one ofs and random cards they can't control drawing or not, and then don't even run what non-blue draw manipulation is available to them as a full set.

Draw manipulation is really good, people! Run more of it! And make your deck more consistent while you're at it! I don't know if it's gambling addition or what but people are acting like they expect the Norns to be all about them drawing exactly the right cards at exactly the right moment.

[Greenpoe]

IBA, you've got no Thrun in the Wishboard. Thrun>Grave-shell scarab. Second, you only play 2 Therpay maindeck and zero Phyrexian Towers but just Innocent Blood, Dorkblast and Deed to kill your Explorers? Interesting.

[arcannys]

how can u witness for a resolved wish :O?

[Tao]

@IBA: It seems like a very slow grinding list that emphasizes value and control elements but I wouldn't have expected anything else. It looks good.

- Kagemaro is better than Wumpus. Both are quite janky but the slot is needed and there is nothing else. But Kage is cheaper and if you need a sweeper chances are high that you don't want to Bolt yourself.
- Play at least one Phyrexian Tower. The upside outweighs the cons by a lot. I would recommend two but if you don't like it that much one will be ok, too.
- you might want two Thruns in the deck despite the Innocent Blods to speed things up, maybe force them to overcommit into Deed, to be good against Jace and to be good with Garruk

On a a side note my latest tries go into the Punishing Fire approach because it does a decent job against Delver as well as Jace and Living Wish also allows to play Bloodbraid Elf but I have no clue what is better anymore. So many possibilities. All lists are good in their way but I can't fucking tell if Pod, Rector, Punishing Fire, Straight GB, Gifts or whatever is better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The best way to kill Explorer is generally to chump a dork, in my experience. I mean I don't think it's correct to build the deck entirely around killing your own Explorers and thus fucking up your mana curve; there's approximately a billion ways for that to go badly.

@Tao: Wumpus over Kagemaro is for two reasons: 1) Bitterblossom, 2) Planeswalkers. Recurring the ability matters for the first, second should be fairly self explanatory.

If I were to run a colorless utility land I'd think I'd want Stronghold with the Witnesses more. I was running 4 Blood, no Darkblast and the 23rd land as Stronghold originally in fact, the biggest reason for the change was to have more ways to refresh Top.

Thrun is a good card and I'm a big fan but I'm extremely leery of the non-synergy with half the deck. Also the reason why it's not currently a Wish target, although I'd tinkered with it there before.

[zulander]

I'm assuming people are testing out both strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger right???

Seems ridic!

[Qweerios]

I'm assuming people are testing out both strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger right???

Seems ridic!

Not really... I fail to see how they contribute to our gameplan.

[Arianrhod]

I'm going to assume that Zulander was trolling. Not many people in the thread even run Kokusho, and I can't imagine ever running Messenger over Kokusho in this deck.

@IBA -- I don't like that you only have two Therapies. I mean, I guess if you don't have any creatures other than Vets to really get full value out of them, then I can kind of sort of see it, but Therapy is an increasingly solid choice in Legacy in general even without shenanigans. SFM and Delver are both very happy to give you information on your opponent's hand for guaranteed hits, and there are other, more corner cases as well. I recognize and appreciate the direction that you're taking the deck -- I had a BUGw landstill deck two years ago that had its only wincons as Jace and Living Wish...a full board, as yours. I see no reason why it can't work, although I would certainly splash white for wish options. Kataki and Canonist are two of the absolute best hosers ever printed for specific decks. I'll grant that this deck tends to not have a problem with Affinity, so maybe you don't want Kataki, but the ability to drop Canonist g1 against any storm deck virtually guarantees a win. I think TES is the only variant that has an out to that at all. Magus of the Tabernacle is another wish target worthy of consideration. I won't say that I'd play your version any time soon, because it's not particularly what I want to be doing with the deck, but I grant you that it has potential. If it's where you want to be, then by all means, go for it!

Here's my latest list:

3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Scrubland
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Sun Titan
3 Garruk Relentless
1 Moat
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Consuming Vapors
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void


I copied it off of Cockatrice, so it's a little disgusting to look at. My apologies.

The big change is that I went -1 Yosei -1 Empath +2 Swords main, then -2 Swords sb for +2 Leyline of the Void.

First, the Leylines: there have been several times in the past when I wished I had the ability to Rector for a Void. Now, with Grafdigger's Cage, I believe that land-graveyard based decks are preparing for a resurgence. As more decks switch to Grafdigger instead of other forms of hate, AggroLoam and 43Lands sit there cackling with joy. Lands can be a decent matchup, but AggroLoam scares me. It's like Deadguy: an attrition-based deck, just like us. The versions that run Burning Wish can even equal our otherwise unparalleled flexibility, and respond in kind. The extra graveyard hate should also help against the potential terror that is LED Dredge, as well as one of our problem matchups (Reanimator).

I've wanted the pair of Swords maindeck for a while now, to complement the rest of my removal suite. I also don't think that I want more than two, because they have a tendency of getting re-used over and over again with Witness, and I'd rather not clog my deck completely with removal. That said, I didn't know what to cut for them. I cut Yosei a few weeks ago, on the basis that he can pull you out of some batshit crazy situations, but that I would rather avoid getting into those situations in the first place, and that trimming one of my 6-drops would make my life easier in general. I tried a Sorin, but it didn't seem -that- great to me. I'll probably try it again before dismissing it completely, but I'm inclined to think that we are not, in fact, the correct deck for him.

The second Swords-slot came from Fierce Empath. I have grave misgivings about cutting this little guy, but I'm going to try it without him and see how I feel about it. Without Empath, I can't grab either of my 6's off of GSZ, which feels like a problem to me. It may prove that I don't need him and that it'll still work fine, but I dislike losing flexibility. That said, I am definitely pleased with having both copies of Swords maindeck again, as they just have so many targets, and they let me save my Pulses and Vindicate for scarier targets later on.

[from Cairo]

I think the land Tabernacle would be better than Magus, though neither have great synergy with Explorers.

Also Leyline of the Void's symmetry seems uncomfortable - Explorers, Rectors, Witnesses, Therapy :( - I realize it should hurt the opponent more, but still seems rough. Maybe Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[Arianrhod]

Leyline isn't symmetrical. It only affects opponents.

[from Cairo]

Leyline isn't symmetrical. It only affects opponents.

My bad was thinking it was Players, carry on.

[TraxDaMax]

To me, cabal therapy is what makes this deck work. I would always run 4 in it.

[Tao]

The best way to kill Explorer is generally to chump a dork, in my experience. I mean I don't think it's correct to build the deck entirely around killing your own Explorers and thus fucking up your mana curve; there's approximately a billion ways for that to go badly.

@Tao: Wumpus over Kagemaro is for two reasons: 1) Bitterblossom, 2) Planeswalkers. Recurring the ability matters for the first, second should be fairly self explanatory.

If I were to run a colorless utility land I'd think I'd want Stronghold with the Witnesses more. I was running 4 Blood, no Darkblast and the 23rd land as Stronghold originally in fact, the biggest reason for the change was to have more ways to refresh Top.


Wumpus seems too slow in every matchup I can think of. Unless you are already on 7 Mana it takes 3 turns until it Pyroclasms. Don't know though, didnt test it.

But I am pretty much 100% sue that it is wrong to play 0 Phyrexian Tower. There is not a billion ways for it to go wrong, there is exactly one and that is if it color screws you. That risk is outweighed by having another sacrifice option, having that option main phase so you are the first to get to use the mana, the one-shot mana boost and giving Sword protection.

[zulander]

I'm going to assume that Zulander was trolling. Not many people in the thread even run Kokusho, and I can't imagine ever running Messenger over Kokusho in this deck.

Actually I wasn't trolling. You realize that you made an argument for running undying creatures in that they can be great therapy targets and survive Deeds right???

[TheArchitect]

Yes but they don't survive StPs and they aren't that big and scary in the first place. Gerlf's Messanger also costs 3 black which can be tricky if we are playing around wasteland. Strangleroot geist might be have a place in the pod lists, though. This deck is usually pretty light on 2 drops and the pod list could better utilize undying.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wumpus seems too slow in every matchup I can think of. Unless you are already on 7 Mana it takes 3 turns until it Pyroclasms. Don't know though, didnt test it.

But I am pretty much 100% sue that it is wrong to play 0 Phyrexian Tower. There is not a billion ways for it to go wrong, there is exactly one and that is if it color screws you. That risk is outweighed by having another sacrifice option, having that option main phase so you are the first to get to use the mana, the one-shot mana boost and giving Sword protection.

No, I said there are a billion ways for building the deck around Explorers to go wrong. An extension of that is running Tower over a more powerful utility land like Volrath's Stronghold.

[Tao]

Just based on experience Tower is by far better than Stronghold in this deck, it is not even remotely close.

[TheArchitect]

Just based on experience Tower is by far better than Stronghold in this deck, it is not even remotely close.

I second that. Phyrexian tower is amazing I want one almost every game. Stronghold on the other hand, I find myself rarely using and when I can use it, it isn't that helpful. I could even see cutting it for another tower possibly.

[hyperchord24]

No, I said there are a billion ways for building the deck around Explorers to go wrong. An extension of that is running Tower over a more powerful utility land like Volrath's Stronghold.
Would you say that twilight mire replaces phyrexian tower?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Would you say that twilight mire replaces phyrexian tower?

No.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Just based on experience Tower is by far better than Stronghold in this deck, it is not even remotely close.

I haven't run the card myself, but I've played against people who have and can't remember a single time that it seemed relevant.

Not only Stronghold but Grim Backwoods seems like a more relevant card for the deck. The problem is that Nic Fit is a really shitty aggro deck; if it's good it's usually by taking the defensive route. The best form of tempo for such a strategy is slowing down the opponent; Explorer only makes the cut because it chumps and advances aggro decks to a point in the game where they tend to lose to superior cards, and because you have enough cards for other control/midrange decks to make up the difference there where its effect is pretty weak.

And Tower is a much worse form of accelerant than Explorer, granting that at least it occupies a land slot.

And may I suggest that only running one is terrible if it were so good and crucial to the deck's game plan early on. Stronghold is fine as a one of because it shines in the late game, and the same would presumably be true of Backwoods; by contrast Tower's mana bonus becomes increasingly irrelevant over time.

[Greenpoe]

Tower is fantastic because it's an easy way to sac explorer and capitalize on the mana at your discretion, and you get a bonus mana from saccing Explorer. In that sense, Tower is a huge tempo bonus for Nic Fit vs. any deck that doesn't use creatures (or doesn't mind not attacking) and vs. decks that attack with evasive creatures.

[Qweerios]

I think it is official, Death and Taxes is a bad matchup. I have been playtesting against it a lot in preperation for an upcoming weekly, and they have too many tools to cripple us. Every single turn they throw a curve ball at us and it eventually piles up. Taking advantage of a sweeper is near impossible without a perfect Explorer/Therapy start. Dealing with Karakas or Vial is a nightmare.

[waSP]

re: Greenpoe and others-
Tower is good if and only if you are playing this deck as something other than a control deck. If you are not playing the deck as a control deck, a tempo boost is very useful. If you are playing the deck as a control deck, it will not help you in the long game at all and could potentially accelerate your opponent's game plan (or increase their card quality) in the early game to the point where you get overwhelmed.

Are you playing long or are you playing short?

[from Cairo]

This deck is totally built to excel in the mid-late game as a control deck, but versus other control decks the option of blocking to get an Explorers' trigger isn't often available in the early-mid game.

Phyrexian Tower can serve as a 5-6th free sacrifice option for Veteran Explorers in matches where there isn't aggressive ground pressure. For example versus other control decks like Stone Blade, or Countertop Thopters.

At worst Phyrexian Tower is a generic 1 mana producing land, not unlike other control decks' Academy Ruins, Riptide Laboratory, Karakas, etc. What I think makes it more appealing is that it aids the Nic Fit player in reaching mid-late game bombs (casting Planeswalkers, Deeds and popping them, etc Turn 2-4), rather than something like Volrath's Stronghold or Grim Backwoods, that are good when the deck has successfully made it to the mid-late game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Veteran Explorer is an awful card against other control decks so I don't know why you think that's relevant.

I mean I would submit that if it were actually that important you should run multiples, as it's an early game card. As it is I don't think it's particularly important. Stronghold actually breaks the control matchup, paired with Witnesses. I've never played with the lists running Tower, but I've played against them, and I've yet to be impressed by the card.

waSP is correct with the addendum that this deck is an awful aggro deck, the same reason why GSZ doesn't work and should be cut for Wishes. Legacy decks are simply built to withstand much greater pressure than Kitchen Finks and a lone Scavenging Ooze.

@Arian:

Witness + Therapy is actually fine, it's more just the fact that Therapy tends to be weak g1 so I keep the extras in the board.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This thread is getting massively derailed by all this shit lately.

Wish and Green Sun's Zenith are both good cards, with their own inherent strengths and drawbacks. The fact remains, however, that if you rely on Wish to get anything that qualifies as a potentially game-winning threat, keeping you from winning the game is about as simple as keeping you from resolving Wish. IBA, I see that as the biggest argument against your list: consistently counter your Wishes, and you're forced to try to win with Witnesses and Garruk tokens (or Witness -> get back Wish -> try for another creature, but honestly, this is a slow line of play). The fact that Zenith gives us redundant copies of Veteran Explorer and Eternal Witness also seems to be a massively under-appreciated facet of the card. It would also be entirely viable to build a list that used both Wish and Zenith, so it's kind of pointless to drag the thread down in some sort of Wish VS. Zenith debate ad infinitum.

Tower is actually a good card in this deck. So is Volrath's Stronghold. Personally, I run both in a lot of builds that I'm testing. I really don't think Grim Backwoods is worth much in Legacy-- by the time it becomes relevant, you'd hope you'd have better ways to spend five mana. It's a logical fallacy to say that we should run 4 Towers if it's so good though, because it's legendary, and not the kind of card you need to see in every game. It's a good safeguard as a way to trigger Explorer in matches where he can't chump, and it can enable some pretty swingy plays, since dumping an Explorer off it gives you four mana (or basically, three more mana than you already had access to.)

Anyway... Just getting a little bored with the redundancy lately.

[Koby]

Just got back from a local GPT (49 peeps). I saw a deck that throw in Valakut/Scapeshift combo in with the basic shell of Explorer/Therapy. He got 12th, and has my mad respect.

Just throwing some ideas out there for brewers.

[Alexeezay]

Hey guys, I thought I'm gonna build this deck for fun because I love Deed & green fatties/planeswalkers. I went 3-2 in a local 29 man Tourney and made 8th place.
I splash Red so the list is kind of diverse.

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Skeletal Scrying

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun the Last Troll
3 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

2 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Duress
1 Darkblast
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Kitchen Finks

Lightning Bolt was cool. While Bolt's used defensively (early game!), I finished somebody off with 2 Bolts that I found via SDT.
Broodmate Dragon was really good, tutorable via GSZ & blocks Delvers/Cliques!...you would think that isn't important because Broodmate is a finisher, but the U/R Delver matchup can sometimes be tricky.
REB/Pyroblast helped alot, especially against Stifle & Jace.
I feel like I could have won the 2 losses against U/R DelverBurn & BUG Landstill, although Landstill is very hard when you are facing an early Liliana after 2 Mulligans.

Recurring Nightmare seems pretty underwhelming...I will cut it for the 3rd SDT.
I didn't like Terminate, but that was due to the matchups & requires more testing.
Also, Skeletal Scrying is awesome! It saved my ass at least in 2 matches.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

Why is Zenith/Explorer in DTB now? I know there are criteria for this, but i'm newer here and don't know exactly how and why DTB status is attained... Zenith/Explorer hasn't won anything or made an especially big amount of Top 8s recently has it?

I like the deck I'm just surprised to see it in the DTB section.

[Koby]

Why is Zenith/Explorer in DTB now? I know there are criteria for this, but i'm newer here and don't know exactly how and why DTB status is attained... Zenith/Explorer hasn't won anything or made an especially big amount of Top 8s recently has it?

I like the deck I'm just surprised to see it in the DTB section.

Decks to Beat (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?23-Decks-to-Beat) Forum, FIRST THREAD, STICKIED.

[moseby]

Rukus where did you see that list?

---------------------------------

Ran a pretty stock B/G (3 lili's) list at a local tournament 37 peeps going 3-1-2. With my only loss coming from W/U stoneforge agro with giest that had near nut hands both games.

R1 TES: On the play not knowing what I was playing against I kept a good hand vs any agro matchup,and he combo's off T2.

G2. I therapy something he duresses 2x taking hymn and Lili, I top deck witness into lili, and ride her to victory.

G3. He duress me I therapy him we go to time.


R2. I therapy hitting something I flashback he forces, giest + jace get there

G2. I forget but I got pantsed.


R3. I know my opponent, and he is pissed about the MU I ask why, he says I will find out. He is running mono B pox.

He is right it is a terrible MU for him, neither game is terribly close.


R4 Agro U/W/G with giest and zenith
This match is a mess and a source of frustration for the rest of the day. We go to time in game 3. After time he asks me to concede to him as both of use are 1-1-1 and a second tie will bone us both of which I am completely aware. I politely refuse indicating I have every intention of playing out the day. He then asks if I want to roll for the win, and I let him know (should have called the judge) that this is a huge no no. So we take the tie he then proceeds to drop. I politely ask him WTF is he doing? that if he is going to drop why not just concede, I forget his response but he just walks away.

R5. a buddy planning on playing the side event scoops it up to me and we play some boring ass oath on oath action.


R6. U/W blade something I win but am still pissed about round 3

On a side note I played another TES player inbetween rounds, and found storm is not as bad a matchup as one might think, as long as you see a modest amount of hand hate, and get some lucky blind therapies.


I love the deck, and hitting blind therapies is fantastic. My only concerns about the deck is when you have issue with the deck is trying to find a titan, or having one cluttering your opening hand. Hermit almost every time I drop him he dies after I pay the upkeep. I am seriously contemplating running a dungrove elder and changing the manabase to 5 forests 2 swamps to make him more formidable.

[Koby]

There is no list (yet), I saw it when I played during the tournament, then a quick glance at the decklist from the HJ after the tournament.

It uses 4 Burning Wish, 3 Scapeshift, the Explorer/Therapy engine, GSZ for some goodies (Primeval Titan probably), and 2 Valakut. It looked a lot like New Age Lands (thread buried somewhere in New Dev forum) with an added twist from Veteran Explorer paradigm.

[Tao]

oh my, DTB forum *_*

On the deck I am still at red for Punishing Fire because it is good against Jace, Delver, Stoneforge, Maverick, D&T, Dredge and Merfolk. Still not sure about the shell though. Even though IBA's point about Tower is completely off, his point about GSZ forcing you to run a rat's tail of medicore creatures is valid. Drawing into Dryad Arbor, Wickerbough Elder, Hermit or Ooze is usually not impressive. Living Wish is one option, another would be to run only 2 GSZ and severely cut down the GSZ package. Or just keep the 4 GSZ plus package. I am not convinced on one option yet.
Living Wish is good so far. Searching Karakas vs. Reanimator, Bojuka Bog vs. Dredge, Fleshbag Marauder against Fatties and Caldera Hellion against Swarms are options that GSZ does not give.

Since yesterday's Pro Tour and the hype around Huntmaster/ Ravager of the Fells I decided to give it a real try instead of just theory. Should have done it earlier, the card is decent and probably even better than Bloodbraid Elf and Kitchen Finks.

My initial thought was that it would be bad because if you pass the turn to transform it they can out-tempo you but that is not the case. It is already solid just for the CiP ability (especially in a burn meta) so if you know they are full of instants you can simply keep playing your stuff. But if it sticks around it will eventually get value. And if they kill it with spot removal you got a nice bonus life and token. It is also synergetic with Punishing Fire because it gives the ability to pass the turn and play your spells in the opponent's turn. Pass the turn to flip it, then play two Punishing Fires in the opponent's turn to flip it back is a strong play. It is also very good with Recurring Nightmare. Huntmaster needs a bit more testing but so far I am quite impressed by it.

[muscleb]

Wut, DTB! I can't say I am surprised, the deck is pretty good in my experience.

Like Tao, after seeing the Pro Tour I am going to try the huntmaster as well, with the usual suspects of punising grove and broodmate.
I don't think I want to play Living Wish with this deck, it just seems too clunky and slow.

[walker]

I played against the Scapeshift deck. It seems really good against green creature decks. Besides Gaddock Teeg they aren't running much to deal with their killer mountains. I was playing the rock and got served up.

Besides the cards Ruckus mentioned I saw Viridian Emissary and Diabolic Intent.

[xfxf]

Hey guys,

The DTBs are decided according to the monthly stats from thecouncil.es. You can find detailed info in the stickied DTB thread. I was doing some trend analysis on deck performances (sounds like I have a lot of spare time doesn't it? I don't actually :laugh: ) and noticed that there was a typo in thecouncil (double listing with its pointed divided) and talked to Nihil Credo about it. When you correct the points for Nic Fit you see that it performed well enough to become a DTB last month! :)

There is some surprising info hidden in statistics, I'm thinking about starting a metagame analysis kind of thread if I can come up with substantial material in the following days.

[Qweerios]

After a couple weeks of on-and-off testing, I opted against Titans altogether. 6 CMC drops in general are too much asked in too many matchups. Titans' threat level in the matchups where they are most relevant are easely matched by cards like Eternal Witness, Thrun, and even surpassed by Deranged Hermit. I would gladly take a second Hermit over a Grave Titan in any Nic Fit list.

Also, another point id like to bring up (I discussed it a couple pages back) is how to best fight Jace decks (Stoneblade). Caleb once said something along the lines of:

Our mainboard is strong enough to consistently beat most "fair" decks, therefore our sideboard can be dedicated to beat the more "unfair" decks such as Dredge, Combo, Reanimator, etc..."

While it is true that we can beat most "fair" decks without much help from the sideboard, it isn't entirely true for blue-based control decks. Stoneblade has tools that grant them card advantage and are very difficult to deal with entirely (Snapcaster, SFM, Jace). While we do have ways to match the generated card advantage (Witness, Hymn, Hermit), Stoneblade decks usually dictate the pace of the match because their cards are cheaper and they have more library manipulation. After a few turns of us trading cards for cards, be it spells or permanents, laying down a single Jace puts them in control of the game from that point on. Breaking through a jace is a very difficult task and doesn't rely as much on us having the answers as much as them not having counter-answers. For every Pulse/Vindicate, or Thrun/Hermit we play, they can match with counterspells or removal. The main difference though, is that they have way more manipulation to find those answers than we do. The solution? more answers/threats, and overall better card quality...

With that being said, instead of trying to break through Jace, why not try to trump him? In most of my testing against BUG Control and Stoneblade decks, I found that Jace's worst nightmare are token generators. Dealing with Enchantments and Planeswalkers is near impossible for blue based decks. In most scenarios, Garruk, Primal Hunter trumps Jace. Getting a 3/3 Token every turn is too much pressure on an empty board. Even in cases where the opponent has board superiority (10/10 KotR + Jace), stalling for 3 turns with the tokens to blurt out 5+ 6/6 wurms is too much for Jace to handle on his own while the two players are exchanging removal/disruption.

Here is my actual list:

Creature (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit

Instant/Sorcery (20)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

Artifact/Enchantment (4)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalker (4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Damnation
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth


I replaced Grave Titans with Garruk and am currently trying out 2 Liliana > 1 Deed and 1 Top. I am still trying to figure out a way to deal with the new Death and Taxes...

[Tao]

Pithing Needle is the best SB option against UW Stoneforge. Swap Deeds for them post board. Also good vs D&T because 38451 of their cards have at least one activated ability. If you are very worried about D&T and want to keep the white version and the tutor SB you can run 1 damping matrix.

Another option is to run Punishing Fire/Grove. It beats Jace, is very good against Death and Taxes and is solid vs. Stoneforge/Snapcaster. Atm I would say that the Punishing Fire version is the best.

[Lim-Dul]

I am building this deck right now and i have some questions about my list. i have not yet played the deck (just goldfishing)...

Creatures (17)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Academy Rector
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

Enchantment (4)
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring NIghtmare
1 Sylvan Lybrary (maybe Phyrexian Arena)

Artifact (3)
3 Birthing Pod

Instant/Sorcery (13)
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sword to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse

PW (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (21)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower (maybe +1 Tower and -1 Plains)
2 Bayou
1 Savanne
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


1. Are the rectos really needed? and if yes, are 2 enoughe? any thougths or experinace on the rector/enchantment plan are very wellcome..

2. Are two titans not a bit too much? they force me to mulligan more often..but they just win the game if they hit the board... i would like to cut one, if i find one more good 5-drop to replace a titan..

3. how many towers are needed? if i goldfish the deck, i often miss sca-outlets in the first turns to really get the ramp the explorers provide..

4. How is the creature/pod-package? Did i get the right ones in? :-)


EXCUSE MY ENGLISH!!!

[XdeckX]

Long time lurking this thread because I've been playing the deck for some time now. Thought I'd pitch in.

I'm still running a straigt GB version. List for reference
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Phyrexian Arena

SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague


I recently added the Nighthawk due to the fact that I don't yet own a 2nd copy of Scavenging Ooze. Eventhough it can't be Zenith-ed into play it's performed reasonably well and even won me a match due to it's lifegain and deathtouch.
The singleton Phyrexian Arena has been great eventhough I have to draw into it. Still an open slot though.

There is one card I've been thinking of adding recently: Tree of Redemption.
This deck struggles against Combo (although the GB version is pretty resilient with the Hymns) and Burn (amongst others...)
Against Burn Tree of Redemption is a solid lifegainer. I'm not sure if it's any good against Combo due to the fact that it's pretty slow.

My meta has a descent amount of Combo and I'd really like to improve that matchup even more (if possible) I've tried a set of Leyline of Sanctity or a set of Mindbreak Trap but neither has impressed me. Leyline is a dead draw and I hate having to mulligan into it. Mindbreak Trap is always duressed away when I play combo.


I've been contemplating adding red as a splash color. I love Broodmate Dragon and it would open some interesting sideboard slots (e.g. REB/Pyroblast)
Red also gives you Pyrostatic Pillar which might be an option against Combo (eventhough the deck lacks early game pressure... could be overcome by adding Lightning Bolts to the maindeck)

[Arianrhod]

@Lim-Dul:

I think that for the list you've got there, 2 Rectors is too many. I'd knock that back down to 1. Rector in a Pod list is not the same as Rector in a Rector list. You have ways of tutoring for her, and you only have three options for enchantments with four total. If you want two Rectors, I'd add at least one more enchantment...probably Faith's Fetters to turn them into removal and gain you some life back from Pod.

I'm personally on the 2-Tower plan, which is funny, because my list is probably more controlly than most in this thread. I find that with two Towers and four Therapies, I'm never wanting for a sac outlet. Granted that this is more important for me, considering that I run 3 Rector. For most Nic Fit lists, I think that 1 Tower is probably correct. Individual mileage will vary.

I feel like two Titans is probably the correct number -- something that Qweerios and I have I think agreed to disagree upon. I do feel like you want another 5-drop, though, so it may be in your best interest to trim one of your 6's to smooth out your Pod chains a bit. Ideally I'd say 1 more 5-drop and 1 more 2-drop. 2 twos is a little low, especially given that you have 4 threes and 4 fours. You're also not going to want to Pod out of Ooze that often, so it's like you only have 1 two. I feel like there needs to be a Qasali Pridemage in there somewhere, because you're running Sun Titan. The synergy there is definitely something worth keeping in mind.

I feel like we should have a comprehensive primer, now that we're in the DTB forum. The deck's changed in many ways since Tao last updated it, and I think that we're now up to 10(!) versions:

GB Straight
GB Abyssal (is anyone playing this anymore?)
GBW No Rector
GBW Rector
GBU Gifts Ungiven
GBR Punishing Fire
GBR Scapeshift (that Rukcus saw)
GBr Splash
GBx Birthing Pod
GBx Living Wish

Since each person that started working in this thread in July/August has ended up in a different place, I think it would be cool to have each of those people write up a blurb with latest decklist, card choices and options, etc for their specific version. Then Tao can combine them to be a new primer.

[Richard Cheese]

Here are a couple lists that did particularly well and therefore might be worth checking out:

1. 7th of 240. GBw with 4x Liliana of the Veil, Sun Titan, Grave Titan
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7528&iddeck=54695

2. 8th of 247. GBW, Master of the Wild Hunt, Sun Titan, Elspeth, Garruk Relentless, Liliana...only 3 Explorers.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7506&iddeck=54471

Personally I've been having issues with RUG Tempo. Deed is super great against them, but forcing it through Stifle, counters, and 1000 cantrips is difficult at best.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This thread is getting massively derailed by all this shit lately.

Wish and Green Sun's Zenith are both good cards, with their own inherent strengths and drawbacks. The fact remains, however, that if you rely on Wish to get anything that qualifies as a potentially game-winning threat, keeping you from winning the game is about as simple as keeping you from resolving Wish. IBA, I see that as the biggest argument against your list: consistently counter your Wishes, and you're forced to try to win with Witnesses and Garruk tokens (or Witness -> get back Wish -> try for another creature, but honestly, this is a slow line of play). The fact that Zenith gives us redundant copies of Veteran Explorer and Eternal Witness also seems to be a massively under-appreciated facet of the card. It would also be entirely viable to build a list that used both Wish and Zenith, so it's kind of pointless to drag the thread down in some sort of Wish VS. Zenith debate ad infinitum.

Tower is actually a good card in this deck. So is Volrath's Stronghold. Personally, I run both in a lot of builds that I'm testing. I really don't think Grim Backwoods is worth much in Legacy-- by the time it becomes relevant, you'd hope you'd have better ways to spend five mana. It's a logical fallacy to say that we should run 4 Towers if it's so good though, because it's legendary, and not the kind of card you need to see in every game. It's a good safeguard as a way to trigger Explorer in matches where he can't chump, and it can enable some pretty swingy plays, since dumping an Explorer off it gives you four mana (or basically, three more mana than you already had access to.)

Anyway... Just getting a little bored with the redundancy lately.

Well most of these lists are short on actual kill conditions, not counting the bad utility dorks in GSZ because Kitchen Finks is generally not going to get there by himself. But I haven't much of a problem with blue decks in testing, I'm running enough discard and quality card advantage/filtering that you can grind them out most of the time.

Regardless I would advocate strongly against the mindset displayed in this post. Personal preference might affect how well someone pilots a given list, but it shouldn't be a fallback argument against optimization. Especially in a control deck there's no way to say that a given list is perfect in all metas for all time, but the argument for or against a particular inclusion has to be based on more. Especially when decklists are as disparate as this deck's is; honestly, based on how wildly divergent the builds are it probably shouldn't be in the DTB section at all. I mean the color set isn't even a settled question.

[Koby]

I think the engine is powerful, but because it's essentially a ramp strategy, any color could be splashed and included. This is why we're seeing GB/(u/w/r) popping up. It's much the same way Survival is an engine that enables an endless permutation of choices, this too allows that. There is also a lot of unexplored (pun intended) potential for this engine.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Well most of these lists are short on actual kill conditions, not counting the bad utility dorks in GSZ because Kitchen Finks is generally not going to get there by himself. But I haven't much of a problem with blue decks in testing, I'm running enough discard and quality card advantage/filtering that you can grind them out most of the time.

Regardless I would advocate strongly against the mindset displayed in this post. Personal preference might affect how well someone pilots a given list, but it shouldn't be a fallback argument against optimization. Especially in a control deck there's no way to say that a given list is perfect in all metas for all time, but the argument for or against a particular inclusion has to be based on more. Especially when decklists are as disparate as this deck's is; honestly, based on how wildly divergent the builds are it probably shouldn't be in the DTB section at all. I mean the color set isn't even a settled question.

My argument isn't "Oh, anything you want to throw in your 75 cards is correct if it's according to your personal preference." Really though, there are enough strong variations on the basic "Veteran Explorer + lots of basics = fat midrange/ late game" plan that it's hard to say there's only one way to build the deck. What I was saying is, given the pros and cons of both GSZ and Wish, that there isn't one that's clearly 100% better for this deck. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think Wish is just clearly superior, and that everyone should stop packing Zenith entirely. I think this question depends partly on meta, personal preference, and whether or not you want to play this deck more as a "midrange Rock" approach, or more of a "control Rock" style.

And as far as kill conditions in the GSZ lists, I think having something like "Ooze, Finks, Thrun, Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, X amount of Witnesses, +4 GSZ, +X amount of planeswalkers" (just as a random, fairly generic example) is undeniably a more robust threat package than "4 Living Wish, 2 Garruk, 4 Witness." It does take up more deck-space, but this can be seen as advantageous in some aspects, because it represents more real threats.

Your list looks pretty good to me overall, and it's a viable approach. I just don't think that anything besides more tournament results is going to really sort out "one list to rule them all," or if having everyone who played this archetype pursuing a homogenous approach would even be a good thing. I was a little surprised to see this in the DTB section this soon also, but honestly having a DTB that can look pretty different depending on which splashes it uses and which strategies it favors more heavily isn't really a new thing. I mean, look at the development of Threshhold and Landstill.

[routlaw]

Is winning with Finks, Eternal Witnesses, and some leftover planeswalker or zombie tokens all that hard? I'd say a good third of my wins end beating with very unimpressive dudes (the other third being a big Ooze, then the actual titan kills).

This deck is still an attrition deck like all Rock decks are and if the opponent runs out of guys and removal they can still die pretty fast when you beat for 4-5 a turn.

Regarding Zenith/Wish, my issue is with engine compactness. GSZ allows a pretty good chance of seeing Veteran Explorer every game, and then later the Zeniths become removal (by way of witness) or killcons like Ooze or Thrun. While I agree that there's some one-of baggage you take along the way, the green creature package is customizable too. No matter what you still want that turn 2 boost of mana to have four or (sometimes) five lands in play, that's the point of the engine. If there are other ways to ensure that reliably without 1) going too high on land count and 2) without playing too much dead in the lategame pure ramp spells.

The biggest draw for Living Wish instead of Zenith is being able to play Bloodbraid Elf in the Jund version of the deck and dropping the overall curve down a bit to top out at four with the wishes being able to get a fatty to end the game if needed. Bloodbraid into GSZ is pretty ugh.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I've beaten people to death with Witnesses and Treetops and utility dorks I wished for. But I got actual utility out of them and that's part of how I won. Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze are frequently awful cards. Deranged Hermit is pretty much always an awful card. They can win as just jank beaters if you put all the strain on the rest of your deck to get there, but that gives you fewer wins.

I mean I have occasionally advocated the idea of playing a Headless Horseman as a Wish target, with the idea that it would be a taunt button you could use when you were going to win anyway and put your opponent on lifetilt, but I certainly wouldn't maindeck the guy.


And as far as kill conditions in the GSZ lists, I think having something like "Ooze, Finks, Thrun, Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, X amount of Witnesses, +4 GSZ, +X amount of planeswalkers" (just as a random, fairly generic example) is undeniably a more robust threat package than "4 Living Wish, 2 Garruk, 4 Witness."

Well see I would deny that.

Living Wish is also a really powerful hoser against a lot of decks, which GSZ really isn't. Even against Burn, a four mana Finks is mediocre; ditto to a three mana Scavenging Ooze against Dredge.


Your list looks pretty good to me overall, and it's a viable approach. I just don't think that anything besides more tournament results is going to really sort out "one list to rule them all," or if having everyone who played this archetype pursuing a homogenous approach would even be a good thing. I was a little surprised to see this in the DTB section this soon also, but honestly having a DTB that can look pretty different depending on which splashes it uses and which strategies it favors more heavily isn't really a new thing. I mean, look at the development of Threshhold and Landstill.

I'm pretty sure we didn't put those decks in the DTB section until they had much tighter lists. I mean even when there was a single Threshold thread, the only difference between variants was what your 1cc removal was, what your 4cc beater was and what duals/sideboard you had, basically.

[Tao]

Didn't we go through the exact same

- let me highjack this thread with a unique decksome featuring some cool ideas and some awful ideas and I dont give a flying fuck about the opinion of players that have played 100x more games with the deck than me, they are wrong

- this isn't even a real deck, doesn't have an agreed on list, OUT OF DTB FORUM WITH IT

already last year with Maverick?

[majikal]

Didn't we go through the exact same

- let me highjack this thread with a unique decksome featuring some cool ideas and some awful ideas and I dont give a flying fuck about the opinion of players that have played 100x more games with the deck than me, they are wrong

- this isn't even a real deck, doesn't have an agreed on list, OUT OF DTB FORUM WITH IT

already last week with Maverick?

ftfy

[Arianrhod]

Those of us who've been with the thread for a long time have been comparing this deck to Survival for ages. By the logic above, Survival at its peak wasn't worthy of being a DTB, because people never settled on which version was best (Bant, Ooze, or Madness/Vine). Depending on which numbers you used, each version had solid strengths. The fact that Nic Fit is capable of of producing a multitude of competitive color arrangements is a strength IMO, not a sign of poor deckbuilding.

At this point, I would say that we should seek to ignore the troll and just keep focusing on making our individual subarchetypes better, as I've been urging for a while now. I mean, the very fact that he pointed out considering Headless Horseman as a "taunt button" seems to debase his arguments in my mind. Putting a taunt button in a deck isn't going to make it any better.

The Living Wish idea is solid, I will grant that, and there may be some potential there. But arbitrarily stating that grrr creatures maindeck are bad and shoving all of your major wincons into the sideboard seems like a really bad idea. I could see some kind of split, like having a bomb or two in the board for Wish while topping your maindeck with like a Thrun or something, but all-inning Wish seems dangerous at best and idiotic at worst, especially since it comes at the cost of valuable sideboard space. I don't feel like this is a deck that is capable of running a multiple-round tournament without at least 8-10 sideboard slots to improve specific matchups.

I feel like Scavenging Ooze is rarely a terrible card, personally. Modern Legacy decks are often set up with the abuse of Snapcaster firmly in mind, so shutting off that avenue seems wise, to say nothing of getting huge vs Maverick, beating Reanimator/Dredge single-handedly if it sticks early enough/they have a slow enough start.

Quick update on my list for those who care -- I took the Swords out again, upon the format's shift towards Geist. Empath is back in, and the other slot is currently being tested as a Mystic Enforcer, because pro-black is relevant, as is the ability to GSZ for a flyer.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Didn't we go through the exact same

- let me highjack this thread with a unique decksome featuring some cool ideas and some awful ideas and I dont give a flying fuck about the opinion of players that have played 100x more games with the deck than me, they are wrong

- this isn't even a real deck, doesn't have an agreed on list, OUT OF DTB FORUM WITH IT

already last year with Maverick?

...aren't you the one testing red?

I mean yes, we did, but it's still a valid concern about deckthreds in the DTB forum. Of course until I take the time to crunch some numbers I don't really know how similar the lists we're using from the Council really are, but there seems to be a decent amount of variance, especially on some relatively key cards. I mean Hell, some of these lists actually look inches away from being a full out Maverick variant.

@Arian: I mean it's not arbitrary. The deck's not Maverick, it's awful at going aggro it doesn't have the support for that plan. You have less situations where a 2/2 or 3/3 with equipment can get there, and it's not winning Knight or Goyf wars. It's not the fallback plan to a Knight or Goyf for that matter.

I don't see where Wishing for kill conditions is worse than maindecking them; it's far better because you control what type of creature you're drawing (and can even make it a land or something.)

The only real knocks are that it gets countered by Spell Snare and that it takes up sideboard room. But the deck's inherent matchup strengths/weaknesses are such that I'm not sure how huge that is. Combo you're generally going to lose against whatever you do, and most other decks the mainboard's pretty good. Against a lot of decks you get to preboard, like Dredge and Reanimator. Against a deck like burn you might miss the board, but I find the Finks/Baloth/Ooze package enough life gain to give you about as good a shot as whatever board hate you might run would give.

[Greenpoe]

Has Glittering Wish been seriously considered? The card is a lot better than Living Wish in many ways (Read: Fetches Deed/Pulse OR win-conditions OR counterspell protection in the form of Gutteral Response/Vexing Shrusher, plus Pridemages, lifegain (Kitchen Finks), card advantage (Cold-eyed Selkie), and tons of other stuff). But the big thing is it fetches Deed and Pulse...oh, and it can fetch Sorin, Lord of Innistad. Pretty cool, probably better than Living Wish.

[Tao]

IBA is not trolling, it would be unfair to say that. He is just very stubborn (sry ;) ).

But there is really no point in arguing about Tower. Everyone with enough games with this will just know that. I understand the theory that in a control deck value is usually more desirable than speed but that is not at all how it plays out in this particular case.

For the deck/archetype/name discussion. I guess as long as it plays Explorer, Therapy and wins with a control plan I would call it Nic Fit. The cards and colors may differ but in general they will support a grinding control plan. The combo version with Scapeshift might want another name, not sure.

For the GSZ discussion: I still think this a valid point. I am currently using the setup with 2 GSZ that was played at the Pro Tour. It gives access to more Veteran Explorers but doesn't force you to commit too heavily into targets. Like IBA I think that Ooze, Hermit, Wickerbough, Finks and Dryad are too often bad cards and that there is room for improvement. I play Ooze G1, it gets killed. Every fucking time.
I am not sure if Living Wish is the way to go though, it is close. It is very powerful because it gets far better things than GSZ. Spell Snare is really not a big deal either. First of all you often know their hand so you can either play around it or Discard it if needed. On top of that resolving Wish and getting it Snared are very different stories. Getting it Snared is a nuisance but getting Bog against Dredge, Baloth against Burn, Genesis against Pox or Karakas against Reanimator are huge plays. Having a very small SB is the real problem with Wish and obviously a huge drawback.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, this is addressed to me.


Those of us who've been with the thread for a long time have been comparing this deck to Survival for ages. By the logic above, Survival at its peak wasn't worthy of being a DTB, because people never settled on which version was best (Bant, Ooze, or Madness/Vine).

Lots of decks running Survival of the Fittests weren't DTBs and shouldn't have been regarded as such, if they were.

And that was a lot more of a marquee card than Veteran fucking Explorer is ever going to be, to tell you the truth.


Depending on which numbers you used, each version had solid strengths.

Namby pamby feel-good nonsense that gets in the way of constructively advancing the game and the deck.


The fact that Nic Fit is capable of of producing a multitude of competitive color arrangements is a strength IMO, not a sign of poor deckbuilding.

We have to be very careful about what we mean by "competitive" here.

It's very easy to build a Legacy deck that can win a small local tournament and that puts up maybe 40-45% against the field. Such a deck can feel good, and is "objectively" powerful if weighed against historical standards of power level.

The problem is that a deck that's 45% against the field is terrible and should be abandoned. There's no reason to play it.

The difficulty is identifying when a deck is so subpar when peoples' optimistic tendencies tend towards them seeing a deck that's 45% as being 55% or better.

This requires clear-headedness and an aversion to the cliches about how X build and Y build are like two really hot chicks and so on.

To quote, I believe it was Jon Finkel; "In any given situation there's the correct play, and every other play is the wrong one."


At this point, I would say that we should seek to ignore the troll and just keep focusing on making our individual subarchetypes better, as I've been urging for a while now.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the utility of a forum, so named after the Roman forum, a public gathering place where ideas could be exchanged and tested for merit against a public audience, in this way hoping to find, from the wisdom of many, a greater truth.


I mean, the very fact that he pointed out considering Headless Horseman as a "taunt button" seems to debase his arguments in my mind. Putting a taunt button in a deck isn't going to make it any better.

Yes, that's right, it won't. Maybe you missed the point of the anecdote. Allow me to illuminate it. I did suggest to a friend that he run Headless Horseman as a Wish target once. But why, you rightly wonder? Or perhaps skip the wondering altogether and dismiss it. A Headless Horseman can win the game, of course; it's a 2/2 and can technically kill someone. But the opportunity cost of running it is cutting something else that would certainly win more games.

Right, and that's because it's a weak creature by the power standard of Magic. But the same is true of most of the GSZ targets people are running; Kitchen Finks and Scavening Ooze and Deranged Hermit are generally weak draws, only strong in niche situations, and unlike Maverick the deck lacks the tools to put them to use in a general aggressive strategy.

So you might immediately think, "Well why would I want to run Headless Horseman?", but really you ought to expand this questioning. Why would you want to raw-draw a Kitchen Finks against 90% of the Legacy field?

@Greenpoe: My problem with testing Glittering Wish previously (and this was back in 2007) was that to make a Wish good you generally need at least a couple cheap and useful targets to grab with it. Like with Cunning Wish you really want Misdirection and Ravenous Trap at least, Burning Wish you're generally going to get a bevy of 1cc spells + Massacre and/or Reverent Silence. There aren't any free gold spells though, and only a few 1cc ones of any value at all.

This is a problem because Wishes add 2+ mana onto the cost of everything you tutor for with them and you really want it to be useful early games on occasion. The biggest benefit of Living Wish over Glittering Wish is just that it can grab Bojuka Bog, Karakas and Maze of Ith (and maybe Tabernacle.)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The Living Wish idea is solid, I will grant that, and there may be some potential there. But ... shoving all of your major wincons into the sideboard seems like a really bad idea. I could see some kind of split, like having a bomb or two in the board for Wish while topping your maindeck with like a Thrun or something, but all-inning Wish seems dangerous at best and idiotic at worst, especially since it comes at the cost of valuable sideboard space. I don't feel like this is a deck that is capable of running a multiple-round tournament without at least 8-10 sideboard slots to improve specific matchups.



I think a split between Zenith and Living Wish may actually be the best approach, the more I consider it. I feel like the split is probably best, since they actually do somewhat different things, even if they both tutor for a creature. While Wish helps the deck remove some of the more janky one-ofs and gives good silver-bullet-lands, at the same time, Zenith helps it not rely too hard on Wish, helps the sideboard not get consumed by Wish targets, and serves as important backup for Explorer and Witness. I feel like having at least one tutorable win condition in the maindeck is a good thing too (I'll just say Thrun for the sake of example.) I like to play a little aggressively and hate matches going to time, so honestly I'd probably still use about 10-12 maindeck slots on a creature package, personally. I couldn't say what's "correct," and I don't think this is really the type of deck where much more than a basic shell is going to be agreed upon at any given point.

Recently I've been testing a fairly standard GSZ based Jund-colored list, using I think 1 Broodmate Dragon, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Punishing Fire, and 1 Terminate as my main-deck red splash. I'm a little less sure about Bolt and Dragon, but Punishing Fire has been pretty amazing so far. I like its applications against UW Stoneforge, Death & Taxes, and Maverick, which can all be pretty annoying games. Making space for Grove in the land package is a little bit of a bitch, but it's seeming pretty good overall, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to drop a Bolt for another Fire. So anyways, I wouldn't dismiss the red splash offhand without asking yourself what's in your meta, testing it, etc.

I'd like to come up with something to put the nail in the coffin of Geist of St. Traft though (like the pun there?) I think Abyssal Persecutor's drawback is pretty awkward, but I've been thinking of tossing in like 2 Tombstalkers and seeing if he and Witness get in each other's way too much. Thoughts, anyone?

[guelahpapyrus]

For the GSZ discussion: I still think this a valid point. I am currently using the setup with 2 GSZ that was played at the Pro Tour. It gives access to more Veteran Explorers but doesn't force you to commit too heavily into targets. Like IBA I think that Ooze, Hermit, Wickerbough, Finks and Dryad are too often bad cards and that there is room for improvement. I play Ooze G1, it gets killed. Every fucking time.
I am not sure if Living Wish is the way to go though, it is close. It is very powerful because it gets far better things than GSZ. Spell Snare is really not a big deal either. First of all you often know their hand so you can either play around it or Discard it if needed. On top of that resolving Wish and getting it Snared are very different stories. Getting it Snared is a nuisance but getting Bog against Dredge, Baloth against Burn, Genesis against Pox or Karakas against Reanimator are huge plays. Having a very small SB is the real problem with Wish and obviously a huge drawback.

Anyway you could provide a link or a list to the pro tour deck you're referencing?

Nic Fit is my pet deck and I haven't had nearly as much experience playing it as other people in the thread but, from what I've noticed, one of my biggest issues with this deck - especially in Birthing Pod lists - is the overabundance of situationally irrelevant creatures in places where I'd rather have a discard spell or a Maelstrom Pulse.

[waSP]

How many of you guys on here have extensively tested with 0 Phyrexian Towers that are coming out so strongly for it? If you play 100 games with a build and find the deck works well (45%-against-the-field-well! whoo), there aren't strong incentives for you to try to test the counterfactual case, so I would understand.

I've tested 100-200 games with 0 Phyrexian Towers and I do not miss it at all. The times I wish I had a sacrifice outlet, it is always me wishing I had another Cabal Therapy or something like a Liliana. The possibility of extra speed is never worth the missed green/black source or the chance of losing tempo to Wasteland. If you want extra speed, you should play Lotus Cobra.

[Anusien]

I agree with IBA. I love me a midrange grindy sort of deck, so I was excited to click this thread. Then I saw it was a ton of random, poor utility creatures and a GSZ toolbox. Almost nothing that looks scary if the person on the other side of the table has a Batterskull.

(Although I disagree with IBA on the utility of the Scavenging Ooze).

One of the things that made GerryT's Survival list so scary was that he tuned the heck out of it and got rid of all the cute cards. Deranged Hermit and Wall of Blossoms feel very much like Genesis and the 3rd and 4th Basking Rootwallas, respectively. Deranged Hermit, in particular, looks like it's in only to be a GSZ-able Grave Titan. Presumably it is there to avoid being Plowed. Plow aside, why are we durdling with Hermit Druid and Thrun when we could have Lord of Extinction, Spiritmonger, Vulturous Zombies, Thornling and Nath of the Gilt Leaf? (Or whatever. There are some sweet 4s and 5s, that's the point.)

[TheArchitect]

Deranged Hermit, in particular, looks like it's in only to be a GSZ-able Grave Titan. Presumably it is there to avoid being Plowed. Plow aside, why are we durdling with Hermit Druid and Thrun when we could have Lord of Extinction, Spiritmonger, Vulturous Zombies, Thornling and Nath of the Gilt Leaf? (Or whatever. There are some sweet 4s and 5s, that's the point.)

Those things all die to StpS and leave you with nothing. 90% grave titan reads put two 2/2 zombie tokens into play and gain 6 life. Same with hermit druid. But that wins games when that Stps was the last card in their hand, and you blew up all their creatures already. All the creatures you mentioned are the "cute" ones that have been tuned out to make way for the most efficient threats. Tbh, I would love to play stuff like nath or spirit monger, but I just dont see how they could be better than Deranged hermit and friends.

This deck plays very grindy and you cant win grindy games if your wincons can just trade 1 for 1 with the most played 1cc removal instant.


EDIT: Afterthought, I have been thinking about batterskull as the lategame finisher (titan slot) card. It does everything we need it too. Doesn't die to removal/combat if we have mana open, heck it doesnt even die to creature removal regardless of if we have mana that turn. Whenever I play stoneblade and they drop bskull, I think "man, I want one of those on my side." I havent tested this at all but I thought I remember some people saying that had a SFM package how did that work? We could probably even run it as a 2/3 of without SFM since 5+ mana is prefectly reasonable for this deck.

[Arianrhod]

IBA: the Spike in me respects your arguments, but the Johnny rebels. As with most things, I fall between the two. Heavy-handedly stating that something is so, does not in fact make it so. Lots of crazy good decks have emerged from mashing two ideas that were terrible separately together to form something good. While I grant that there is an -enormous- danger of cute things with this archetype, because we get to do so many things that other decks in legacy only wish that they could, I would argue that most of those cute things (with some blatant exceptions) are worth testing, because you never know what diamonds you might find in the rough.

Indeed, that is the main problem that I have had with your posts in this thread thusfar. You claim, as with your Finkel quote, that there is one correct way for a deck to be built, and indeed that it should not be in the DTB forum unless it meets those specifications. I, on the other hand, have claimed previously (and still believe) that this deck is the Nietzsche of legacy decks: "there is no right or wrong way, only a way. This is mine, what's yours?" And I furthermore believe that the deck's sheer variability is a strength of the archetype, because it's not a matter of when two Stoneblade players ram into each other, knowing that there is maybe 4 different cards in their whole damn deck. If you're playing vs a Nic Fit, and you know that from Therapy/Explorer, you have to worry about what the hell is going to happen next, because the archetype is capable of anything. You can't just memorize the top deck list of the week, and know exactly what you're going up against to within a few cards. I consider my opponents' lack of information a strength.

Things like Ooze and Finks are never dead cards for me, due to the fact that I run a pair of Phyrexian Arenas. The incremental lifegain offsets the card draw, so even when they aren't in their niche and performing amazingly, they have a very real purpose. I'll grant that my deck is a little specific in that regard, and that Finks/Ooze are maybe not quite as amazing universally, but the fact remains that you cannot simply make a blanket statement that Finks is a horrible card except in certain situations. There are always exceptions, which is the problem of course with any blanket statement. There are even exceptions to the idea that there are exceptions, but I digress.

I grant your Wish idea validity, and plan on testing it, but the fact remains that it is JUST AN IDEA. There is no proof, hard or soft, that Wish is a superior engine to GSZ. As you said, the Roman forum. I have no objection to anyone raising any idea in this thread or elsewhere. Such is proper. I will reiterate just so I'm clear: what I have a problem with is anyone claiming without irrefutable data that their way is the only, the correct way. It has nothing to do with feel-good optimism, but rather a preference for keeping all options on the table. Nothing ever truly goes away, and there is nothing new under the sun. The Abyssal Persecutor idea has somewhat fallen off the radar, at least among people who actually post in the thread (I don't doubt that people who do not post still play it). However, that does not mean in my mind that it is proof that Abyssal Persecutor is a terrible idea and will never see use again, or that it should ever be dismissed from the discussion as an option for the proper time and meta.

At the very least, I am open to agree to disagree, as it seems that our stances are fairly opposite.

WaSP: I don't buy into the Wasteland argument. I would rather that they Waste my Tower than one of my duals any day of the week, especially since due to Explorer triggers, duals are usually the first lands fetched. Ironically for a deck that runs this many basics, we're actually still just as susceptible to Wasteland, unless we have basics in our opening hand, which then weakens Explorer slightly. I do agree that there are probably builds that will eschew Tower entirely and be perfectly happy with it. Builds with Academy Rector are not among their number. The Gifts builds are the other version that I have worked on, and I will agree that Tower was always on the chopping block in those builds. It was far less exciting there. I would say that the hierarchy for Tower would be something like the following:

If Nic Fit, then 0-1 Tower. If Gifts, then 0 Tower. If Rector, then 1-2 Tower.

I -could- see the Birthing Pod builds wanting 2 Towers as well, to try to speed Pod out as fast as possible. But I haven't really tinkered with a Pod list, so I can't speak for those people.

[Anusien]

If you only have two real threats, then yeah, you absolutely can't let them die to StP. This is because there's a lot of chaff and creatures that aren't really threats. If you can up the threat count, then it's okay if a creature dies to StP because you have another one. It's the last fattie that gets them.

If you're red, Olivia Voldaren seems insane. Against bolt decks, you just don't play it until you can save it from Bolt; even then it's as expensive as a Grave Titan and dominates the board better.

[Richard Cheese]

Eh, you're wasting spots in the main or you're wasting spots in the side. You're trading redundancy for added flexibility in being able to grab lands and off-color creatures. Really just seems like a matter of personal preference to me at this point.

[hyperchord24]

To quote, I believe it was Jon Finkel; "In any given situation there's the correct play, and every other play is the wrong one."
So what you're saying is that there is a correct card to put in a deck and every other card is the wrong one?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, essentially. In any given tournament there is one configuration that gives you the best possible chance of winning (keeping in mind the eccentricities of the pilot,) and running anything else is a mistake.

[Greenpoe]

Those things all die to StpS and leave you with nothing. 90% grave titan reads put two 2/2 zombie tokens into play and gain 6 life. Same with hermit druid.

90% of Grave Titan reads: "gg." People tend to concede to Grave Titan. Hermit Druid is okay, but what about when they have a 2/2 and a 3/3? Or any number of x/2 creatures? Then they'll just block and block and block, and you're Hermit Druid did basically nothing. Two 2/2's for six mana>four 1/1's for ten mana (echo...they'll inevitably wait since they have StP). This is assuming they have StP. If they don't, Grave Titan is just better in 99% of situations.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Deranged Hermit is awful. I'm sorry to say that because I have as fond memories of the card as anyone, but it was borderline when the power level on creatures was way below where it is now.

If you want something that doesn't get StP'd effectively to GSZ for that's big and splashy, stick to Thrun or maybe Grave-Shell scarab or Gigapede. Paying eleven mana to get a few Grizzly Bears in the best case scenario where they have no way to deal with a 1/1 is terrible.

[Anusien]

I am personally much more afraid of Batterskull than Swords to Plowshares out of UW Blade. And none of the creatures listed, including Hermit Druid, fight it profitably.

[TheArchitect]

Yes, essentially. In any given tournament there is one configuration that gives you the best possible chance of winning (keeping in mind the eccentricities of the pilot,) and running anything else is a mistake.

This is true, however it is completely irrelevant because we will never, NEVER know what that configuration is. Even the deck that got first out of hundreds might have had an even more optimized build that would have led to an easier win. So dont fool yourself into thinking you can know the absolutes. All we can do is strive for that optimal configuration, and we will do that in different ways (GSZ, wish, etc).

You claim your just opening up debate as the Greeks and Romans have done before us, but the whole point of debate, which is great btw, is for parties to present their ideas argue for validity so that a common ground can be reached. Not to stubbornly present things you claim as absolutes without even acknowledging others ideas.



Deranged hermit is awesome, very few decks run removal that can hit multiple targets. Assume you force them to bolt/stps your hermit, 4 1/1s will beat an elsepth or jace. Or chump block a goyf (while some swing) till you find removal. Its sad really, how such a "bad" card will win so many games for you. He is green and he makes 10 power for 5*2 mana that doesn't all go away if he gets removed. If they made a better card that does the hermits job, I would use it. But no card I have seen fills his role quite as well.

Note: I'm not saying hes better than grave titan, far from it, but the fact that the hermit can be gotten with GSZ makes him amazing in decks using GSZ. If your using wish, grave titan is probably all you need. but idk I haven't tried the wish list yet, but sounds interesting.



I am personally much more afraid of Batterskull than Swords to Plowshares out of UW Blade. And none of the creatures listed, including Hermit Druid, fight it profitably.

Oh I totally agree, but they have one of those, and 4 swords + 4 snappys + Paths in the side. We have pridemage (or wickerbough elder for me in B/G), pulses and deeds all MD to deal with BSkull. Pithing needles or kgrips in the SB can help too (as well as deal with walkers and stuff).

One thing that is REALLY strong about this archtype is it can deal with just about any threats we could imagine, but I believe our creatures need to be ones that are really hard for other decks in the meta to deal with (which is why I play stuff like thrun, garruk or hermit druid).

[Vandalize]

Why don't you play Troll Ascetic along with Thrun? I know Thrun is strictly better, but Troll costs 1 less (for the matchups your Veterans will get plowed more than often).

Any progress in the Valakut version of this deck? Seems like a nice tech, and Valakut was well known in Standard and Extended to be hell of a finisher (it's not a surprise they banned it in modern).

Brewed a Valakut list, it seemd nice in the few testing I did. (3-1 vs Stoneblade, 2-2 vs RUG Tempo, 1-2 vs Dredge, 5-0 against GW Maverick).

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Emissary

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burning Wish
4 Prismatic Omen
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse

SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood

Any comments or suggestions? They'll be heavily appreciated.

[conboy31]

Can anyone elaborate on the current trend of bashing Ooze maindeck and being dissatisfied with drawing it?

The only matchups in the entire metagame I actively don't want to draw ooze is vs. Sneak and Show, Hive Mind, Storm Combo (especially non-Ill gotten gains), and elves before a deed.

Off the top of my and and some quick scanning (I'm sure I missed a few decks) of deck lists he has legitimate utility against every other deck in the format.

[XdeckX]

Deranged Hermit is awful. I'm sorry to say that because I have as fond memories of the card as anyone, but it was borderline when the power level on creatures was way below where it is now.

If you want something that doesn't get StP'd effectively to GSZ for that's big and splashy, stick to Thrun or maybe Grave-Shell scarab or Gigapede. Paying eleven mana to get a few Grizzly Bears in the best case scenario where they have no way to deal with a 1/1 is terrible.
I agree. Hermit is a fine card as is but the Echo makes is kinda meh. I love to put 5 guys into play from 1 card but having to pay for them again next turn (an have the hermit removed/destroyed afterwards) is just not cutting it for me. Most of the time I just drop Hermit defensively or to get rid of some pesky Planeswalker (when I don't have a Pulse in hand)
I just haven't found another card that I would rather have in that slot. Sometimes you just need the extra bodies Hermit provides.

[Qweerios]

I agree with IBA that there is an optimal list for a given meta. However, the meta does change quite a lot so there will always be some variance in the optimal list(s). I think that there are more "core" packages in this deck than some want to believe. This thread is indeed infested with pet decks and suggestions. For instance, I believe that any Birthing Pod version should be thrown out the window... The same goes for lists hellbent on abusing Recurring Nightmare high CMC creatures.

Tower is a very debatable slot to say the least. Another dual or basic would probably be consistently better. I only play it because I do get the Volrath/Tower/Witness combo from time to time against hardcore control decks. It is comparable to playing Riptide Laboratory alongside Snapcaster Mage, the drawback is acceptable and the potential is much greater. At this point, it is more a matter of consistency (1 land) vs. potential (card interactions).

I have given up on Percy a couple of weeks ago when I realized that Abyssal Persecutor is to Nic Fit what Tarmogoyf is to Maverick: vanilla. We can play it with virtually no drawback, but as awesome as it sounds, a 6/6, flying, trample creature for 4 mana isn't that good in a counterspell-free control deck.

Deranged Hermit is awesome. I believe that he is leagues better than Titan for one very simple reason: you have 5 copies in your deck at all times, and only 1 of them is 5CMC. He has been my main win condition in most of the games I have played. In a meta governed by cheap targeted removal, getting 5 creatures out of 1 card is game-breaking.

As far as the arguments against him go, they are pretty much bogus. Facing a 3/3 and a 2/2? Well, I want to know how you got in a situation where your opponent has 2 creatures, you have at least 6 mana open and your best play is a GSZ, and that you elect to fetch Hermit instead of:
-Thrun, to trump both;
-Witness to get removal back, or even;
-Ooze since everything above 2/2 in this format is pretty much a Goyf or a KotR

Hermit is echo? It doesn't matter when he wins you the game even if your opponent is holding removal or draws into it. Besides, how important is a tempo drop at that stage in the game?

I agree that finks is complete trash in the mainboard. It isn't even that great of a card in the sideboard either, except against Pox and Zoo. Saying that Finks is good because you play Arena isn't valid. Unless you are consistently left with 1-2 points of life at the end of a match where you resolved an Arena, you haven't used those extra life points.

I have found Hymns to be dissapointing lately. I feel like they are only good against Combo, and even there, targeted discard would be better. Against control decks, I don't really have anything to push through to take advantage of them, and again, targeted discard would probably be more effective. I am drifting away from them for now despite having advocated them so much, and have added 4 Planeswalkers instead for a total of 6.

Also, I have noticed that a few lists played 1 Birds of Paradise, and often did so instead of the 4th explorer. I think it is a good idea for a couple of reasons:

1) 2 Explorers suck
2) Bird + Explorer play alongside
3) GSZ Bird instead of Explorer with no Therapy when desperate for mana is much better
4) Adds any color

[catmint]

I got my BUG control ass beaten a couple of times on MWS recently which got me interested in this deck.

My questions / concerns.
I saw some different lists online, but none splashing blue. I once played on MWS against something like Nic Fit I saw having access to brainstorm, snapcaster and jace. Does anyone know about such a build and strength/weaknesses.

Is the stoneblade matchup not more problematic than described in the primer?
they can do a lot with additional basics... I feel that they will usually get ahead with Jace/Elspeth and it has to be some GSZ for hermit/witness/Thrun or Titan resolving to get back into the game somehow...

Would be nice to hear how this important matchups usually plays out...

How is the matchup versus burn, affinity and dredge which are common budget decks in my local meta?

[Jiaozy]

How is the matchup versus burn, affinity and dredge which are common budget decks in my local meta?Against Burn you're in for a lot of hurt unless you play 3-4 Finks between MD and SB and even then you have to get VERY lucky to win.
If you're not playing Finks you just lost the match.

Against Affinity it depends on how fast you manage to get an active Deed for 2 and wipe their board: if you can't in the first 2-3 turns it's usually too late.

Against Non-LED Dredge you can manage to win pre-board (since they're a lot slower than the LED versions) if you can quickly GSZ for an Ooze after a sacced Explorer, post SB it gets better the more cards you side in.
Against the LED versions you're basically starting with a loss, then you have to win the next two games.

[Richard Cheese]

Can anyone elaborate on the current trend of bashing Ooze maindeck and being dissatisfied with drawing it?

The only matchups in the entire metagame I actively don't want to draw ooze is vs. Sneak and Show, Hive Mind, Storm Combo (especially non-Ill gotten gains), and elves before a deed.

Off the top of my and and some quick scanning (I'm sure I missed a few decks) of deck lists he has legitimate utility against every other deck in the format.

Yeah Ooze is pretty much nuts 90% of the time. Maybe people are just running him out too early? I personally won't cast it until I have enough spare :G: to either dodge bolt, or gain a good chunk of life off StP. Even when it eats removal immediately, you should be getting some value. I guess you could counter with "then it's just an overcosted Healing Salve" or something equally ridiculous, but what Healing Salve has the potential to neutralize Snapcaster, Loam, KotR, keep you out of burn range, and become a huge beater?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you can't do anything useful with it until you have a bunch of mana against most decks, that kind of proves the point.

I'm certainly not saying that Ooze is bad. Or that Finks is bad for that matter. These fall into the category of creatures that are mediocre on their own against most decks, sometimes amazing, and can fit into an aggro strategy fairly seamlessly with GSZ.

The problem is Nic Fit's low threat density and aggro support, which means that all too often your only beatdown is Scavenging Ooze or Finks or four 1/1 squirrels you paid eleven mana for which make you look ridiculous.

@Queerios: Arguing that you can win with Deranged Hermit when your opponent has nothing is arguing that you shouldn't play Deranged Hermit.

@TheArchitect: Between the hypothetical optimized decklist at any given point in space-time, and trundling along content with whatever 75 you throw together, there is a vast and wide gulf full of attempts to improve the deck and move it closer to a point where it might resemble the ideal 75 much more closely.

[Qweerios]

@Queerios: Arguing that you can win with Deranged Hermit when your opponent has nothing is arguing that you shouldn't play Deranged Hermit.

What? Arguing for something is the same as arguing against it? There is a difference between an opponent with an empty board and cards in hand, and an opponent with an empty board and an empty hand. If your opponent has the latter, anything you play is good, otherwise, Hermit or Thrun will get you there. Hermit is overwhelming, and will not be dealt with by a single card unless it's a sweeper, and those are rather rare and/or usualy sided out or not sided in against us. Last time I played Nic Fit, it was pretty good at keeping the board clear, and my opponents usually draw 1 card per turn. Here is how it usually goes:

Step 1: Clear the board
Step 2: Play Hermit
Step 3: Watch your opponent try to deal with Hermit with multiple cards
Step 4: There is usually no step 4, but when there is, you are far better off than your opponent because they have went out of their way to deal with Hermit. Also, by that time, you probably have the means to repeat the process.

@Catmint
Burn is difficult to say the least, if it is a concern, prepare for it (read the previous pages).
Dredge is difficult as well, prepare a good sideboard for them just like any other deck.
Stoneblade isn't an easy matchup, and one we ought to improve (Planeswalkers!!). It is probably a 55/45 matchup in our favor. I encounter it very often and the matches are always tight.

As a sidenote, I don't think Pox is a bye. I keep losing to pox for some reason... They get more value out of an Explorer trigger than we do. I only manage to win when I land a token-generating Planeswalker or a Compost.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Incredibly rare and unlikely scenarios in which Deranged Hermit is shit:

- Your opponent has a Batterskull
- Your opponent has a Jitte
- Your opponent has a Grim Lavamancer and another creature
- Your opponent has a removal spell and a creature or God forbid an Elspeth.
- Your opponent has both lands and cards in their hand that are likely to be any of the above.

Like, would CRET Belcher be a scary deck if it always went off on turn 7 and had a storm count of 2 before casting Empty the Warrens?

No, right? And that's why Deranged Hermit is shit.

[TheArchitect]

Look, if TES and beltcher could combo off on turn 7 and clear out your opponents hand while simultaneously talking care of all you opponents non-land permanents then following up with an ETW at 2 would be terrifying.

We need a card that seals the deal when we have the game under control. Most legacy decks have nothing that can deal with tokens. They will have to trade multiple cards to get rid the druid and his entourage. By the time they deal with them they have wasted multiple cards, you have drawn more, possibly even a way to Ewit back the druid and repeat the cycle.

Not only does he lock in the win, he is amazing if you're getting stomped and need some blockers till you find an answer.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're in the scenario where your opponent has no cards in hand and nothing on board, then anything is good. At least Lord of Extinction would end the game quicker, and Kodama of the North Tree wouldn't fold to an StP + a Mishra's Factory, and those aren't even particularly great choices.

No one needs a card that "deals" with 1/1 Squirrels, because they're fucking 1/1s. You know what card deals with 1/1 Squirrels? Grizzly Bears.

Or Hell, Chimney Imp.

[Anusien]

Hermit Druid is actually not bad at trading with Planeswalkers. There are about a million other cards that do this better, but still.

Kodama of the North Tree is a good find; I remember that guy being a beating in Standard. You're only trading with a Germ token though.

Anyway, if you're paying 5 mana for a guy that barely competes with a fraction of a card (a single use of Batterskull), you're in trouble. The best creature abilities in Legacy are flying, then trample. We sort of get access to trample here, but none of the creatures you get are really better than a Tarmogoyf until you pay 6 mana.

[TheArchitect]

@IBA: Kodama of the North tree is good, and I wouldnt call you crazy if you used him instead of hermit druid. Lord of extinction is a bad example though, they top deck removal and you lost control of the board. And I say 4 1/1s cause I assume they top deck removal so thats after they have already used a card, in reality he is usually collectively a 9/9.. If they traded one card for only killing half a creature he has already done his job.

Kodama is solid, probably better on the offence, but hermit druid can double chump block (while swinging) for 5 turns while you look for answers. Both lose to batterskull, so that is pretty irelivant.


@Anusien: If you can find a green creature with flying or trample that rarely can get beaten by single topdeck and/or provides card advantage on cast and can be used defensively if needed, let me know I will throw it in my deck ASAP cause I have been looking for something better than hermit druid at his job since I started playing this deck, but I have yet to see it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Saying that you want a card to do X but there are no good cards that do it is saying you should not run card X.

This is part of why GSZ sucks in this deck. All of the utility guys you're grabbing just aren't very good, with Deranged Hermit only being the worst offender. But Kitchen Finks is hardly crazy lifegain. Ooze is a decent card but costs a shitton of mana for what he does. Wickerbough Elder is a fucking Desert Twister if you're Zenithing.

[Richard Cheese]

Saying that you want a card to do X but there are no good cards that do it is saying you should not run card X.

This is part of why GSZ sucks in this deck. All of the utility guys you're grabbing just aren't very good, with Deranged Hermit only being the worst offender. But Kitchen Finks is hardly crazy lifegain. Ooze is a decent card but costs a shitton of mana for what he does. Wickerbough Elder is a fucking Desert Twister if you're Zenithing.

So the guy that's running Ooze and Elder in a wishboard is now complaining that they cost too much with Zenith? Are you even trying to do anything productive here or just arguing for the sake of arguing? At this point you just look like you're waiting for someone to respond so you can make a rebuttal, and this isn't the only thread you're pulling this shit in.

[Jiaozy]

Saying that you want a card to do X but there are no good cards that do it is saying you should not run card X.

This is part of why GSZ sucks in this deck. All of the utility guys you're grabbing just aren't very good, with Deranged Hermit only being the worst offender. But Kitchen Finks is hardly crazy lifegain. Ooze is a decent card but costs a shitton of mana for what he does. Wickerbough Elder is a fucking Desert Twister if you're Zenithing.Ok, so what can you Zenith for that leaves your opponent 2 turns of life, since Deranged Hermit isn't good?
It's like having other 5 Grave Titans in the deck that you can tutor up to seal the deal since the focus of the deck IS to empty your opponents hand AND board then win with a bomb they can't answer.

I agree that Kitchen Finks isn't "crazy life gain" but at least id DOES something, helping you a lot in the Aggro MUs like UR Delver, Burn, Zoo Sligh and the like.

Since you can't "Destroy Target Permanent" with GSZ like you can with Desert Twister, you need something to deal with random artifact and enchantments and having 3 Deeds, 3 Pulse AND 5 Naturalize on legs has never been a problem for me.
There are a couple of better cards for the purpose (Harmonic Sliver and Qasali Pridemage) but they require another colour.

Also if you don't have 4-5 mana with this deck you're mana screwed, playing 4 Explorers and 22 lands, so saying that Ooze is bad because it requires mana, is like saying that FoW is bad because it requires blue cards.
Sure, they need specific conditions to be good (2+ untapped green mana/a bunch of blue cards to pitch), but they ARE good.

I may be missing something but other than Knight of the Reliquary and Progenitus, what are the guys "good on their own" that you can Zenith for?
Qasali Pridemage?
Noble Hierarch?
Gaddock Teeg?
Sylvan Safekeeper?
Scryb Ranger?

They're all NICE but hardly ever good on their own, they require to fit a strategy or they're hardly ever good.
Scryb Ranger wasn't even a card before Vendilion Clique gained popularity MD, for example, Noble Hierach is the best mana dork available, but far from game breaking/winning, same goes for the other green dudes that see play.
Each of them has flaws and is somewhat vanilla, but together they're good!

Just like Liliana and Pernicious, together with Hermit or Ooze.

[Roottori]

Hi,

I'm thinking about getting into legacy and looking for a deck to start with. This deck caught my interest, particularly straight GB-version, because manabase needs only four duals. But is GB-version still viable in todays metagame, or is it GBW-version that rocks? And if GB-version still kicks some ass, have there been any major changes to first posts list for example?

[Arianrhod]

@Architect -- The best you're going to get on that front is Mystic Enforcer. I've been testing one in my build, and have been favorably impressed so far. It's a little dodgy to get threshold sometimes, but it still has protection from Batterskull. Lategame when you just need a wincon, he's pretty amazing.

For what it's worth, I agree with IBA regarding Hermit. I tried him a few times and he just never did it for me.

I will point out something that I just thought of regarding the Zenith debate. These decks are like machines, all of them. No matter the subarchetype that you're working with, they all are made up of more interactions and synergies than most legacy decks can boast. While some Zenith targets, like Finks, let's say, aren't exactly the most impressive things around, they're serving a number of functions for our deck besides that which they are in the deck for. As I stated before, in my version this comes primarily for Phyrexian Arena. A Birthing Pod version might see Finks as a way of gaining card advantage off of a "free" pod activation, alongside it's "reason" of being good vs burn and aggro. Sure, a lot of Zenith targets might not be good in a vacuum, but we aren't considering them in a vacuum. We're considering them inside a highly synergistic pile of cards, many of which are jank that happen to work well enough together to be formidable.

[Jiaozy]

Hi,

I'm thinking about getting into legacy and looking for a deck to start with. This deck caught my interest, particularly straight GB-version, because manabase needs only four duals. But is GB-version still viable in todays metagame, or is it GBW-version that rocks? And if GB-version still kicks some ass, have there been any major changes to first posts list for example?The guy that played/designed that list, has updated it like this:

1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Skeletal Scrying

Sideboard
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Damnation
4 Mindbreak Trap

Only some minor changes, tho.

[Roottori]

Allright, thank you. I'll do some testing online and see if I like the deck.

[Richard Cheese]

I've been playing around with dropping White in favor of Red lately to try and improve the RUG Tempo matchup, and so far it looks pretty promising. I'm actually not that interested in Broodmate or P. Fire. Broodmate takes forever to come online, and by the time he does he's usually outclassed by Knight or even Goyf, and Groves just felt like they diluted the manabase too much, and there's no reliable way to grab them. What has seemed good so far at least, are:

Bloodbraid Elf
Arc Trail
Forked Bolt


Bloodbraid here functions a lot like Countryside Crusher in Aggro Loam. The 3/2 haste is mediocre, but immediately getting you to your next business spell can be priceless. In my GBW build I felt like I got flooded a lot, and burning through 2-3 lands into anything is really nice in a deck without any kind of draw engine. Worst case I hit GSZ, in which case I either get Arbor or just send it to the bottom. Her high cmc also works to counteract the small body, since you can Deed away almost anything that would get in her way. Late in the game she can be incredible with Stronghold as well.

Arc Trail and Forked Bolt seem janky, but the more I play with them, the more value I'm seeing. The most important creatures in Legacy right now are Delver, Mom, Hierarch, Clique, SFM, and KotR. Obviously neither is solving the KotR issue, but against all the others these are amazing. They also make the Explorer plan way more consistent than just Therapy, Tower, and Nightmare, and you can always toss any leftover damage at your opponent.

I think the biggest case against Red is that you lose a lot of good anti-combo hate in dropping White, but even with a tutor package and multiple pieces of hate, the percentages on the combo matchup are still pretty terrible, so it may very well be worth having Red in the board to really nail down everything else. If I can find a build that consistently has a good matchup against Maverick, RUG, and UW, I'll be perfectly content to shake hands and grab a coffee with any combo players I come across.

Oh and full disclaimer, I've only run about 3 games against RUG Tempo, 1 against UW, and 1 against GWr Maverick, so when I say results are promising, it's still an extremely small sample size. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there in case anyone is still messing with a GBr build.

[guelahpapyrus]

On the topic of red, I splashed it in a GBW build for the new Huntmaster and so far I've liked him. Plays like a mix between Finks and Wolfmaster.

[Arianrhod]

Richard: here's a potentially stupid idea, but have you actually tried Big Country(side Crusher)? Considering our Veterans alongside the usual drawn lands, we usually reach a point where extraneous duals and fetches are just that. Countryside would guarantee that we are drawing business every turn. It's not necessarily the greatest idea, but it's something that you might want to test anyway.

[Anusien]

@TheArchitect: You are going about it wrong. It's not about "Find a creature that does what Hermit Druid is intended to do but better". I would cut like 6 creatures that I consider sub-par (Hermit, a Witness, the Finks, an Ooze, the Wall, and a Thrun from the original list) and replace them with more powerful 4 and 5 drops. Then who cares if one gets Plowed, because the second one won't be.

[Richard Cheese]

Richard: here's a potentially stupid idea, but have you actually tried Big Country(side Crusher)? Considering our Veterans alongside the usual drawn lands, we usually reach a point where extraneous duals and fetches are just that. Countryside would guarantee that we are drawing business every turn. It's not necessarily the greatest idea, but it's something that you might want to test anyway.

The idea crossed my mind, but there are several reasons why I don't think he'll work here. I think one of the main reasons why Loam has fallen out of the spotlight recently is that the current meta just oozes StPs, and Crusher always has that one vulnerable turn before he activates. Second, the double red seems a bit trickier to hit, I'm sure you could with some tuning, but you'll probably lose reliability somewhere else. Also, he sends lands to the yard, and Loam is basically built around a graveyard full of lands, whereas we don't have a good way to get them back. Finally, the difference between 21/22 lands and 26/27 is huge. Loam really relies on Crusher (and Bob) to draw any business at all.

[Tao]

One thing that speaks for Hermit that hasn't been mentioned is his synergy. Hermit gives a ton of fodder for Cabal Therapies and is nuts with Recurring Nightmare. Not sure how good he is, but is certainly not as some people make him.

On the Red splash:
Huntmaster of the Fells is imo a better card than Bloodbraid Elf. 90% of the time it does more than you would expect at first glance. I currently play 3 Huntmaster (were 4 but in a small Gauntlet I was reminded that Punishing Maverick is a part of the Meta so I went down to 3).
Before I would play Forked Bolt I would just play good old Lightning Bolt. Odds for a 2 for 1 with Forked Bolt are slim and Lightning Bolt gets Jaces down to 0 instead of 1 plus being an Instant and dealing 1 more damage.

[guelahpapyrus]

One thing that speaks for Hermit that hasn't been mentioned is his synergy. Hermit gives a ton of fodder for Cabal Therapies and is nuts with Recurring Nightmare. Not sure how good he is, but is certainly not as some people make him.

On the Red splash:
Huntmaster of the Fells is imo a better card than Bloodbraid Elf. 90% of the time it does more than you would expect at first glance. I currently play 3 Huntmaster (were 4 but in a small Gauntlet I was reminded that Punishing Maverick is a part of the Meta so I went down to 3).
Before I would play Forked Bolt I would just play good old Lightning Bolt. Odds for a 2 for 1 with Forked Bolt are slim and Lightning Bolt gets Jaces down to 0 instead of 1 plus being an Instant and dealing 1 more damage.

I'm assuming your red splash eliminates your StP. Are you finding that lightning bolt is cutting it or are you using something in addition to lightning bolt?

[Tao]

I'm assuming your red splash eliminates your StP. Are you finding that lightning bolt is cutting it or are you using something in addition to lightning bolt?

My removal stup is currently 4 Punishing Fire, 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Pulse, 3 Deed in the MD and 2 Lightning Bolt, 1-2 Damnation, 1-2 Diabolic Edict in the SB.

[Richard Cheese]

One thing that speaks for Hermit that hasn't been mentioned is his synergy. Hermit gives a ton of fodder for Cabal Therapies and is nuts with Recurring Nightmare. Not sure how good he is, but is certainly not as some people make him.

On the Red splash:
Huntmaster of the Fells is imo a better card than Bloodbraid Elf. 90% of the time it does more than you would expect at first glance. I currently play 3 Huntmaster (were 4 but in a small Gauntlet I was reminded that Punishing Maverick is a part of the Meta so I went down to 3).
Before I would play Forked Bolt I would just play good old Lightning Bolt. Odds for a 2 for 1 with Forked Bolt are slim and Lightning Bolt gets Jaces down to 0 instead of 1 plus being an Instant and dealing 1 more damage.

Jace is definitely a valid concern. I'm not 100% sold on Forked Bolt or Arc Trail over Bolt, but one thing I do like is how they both make the Explorer plan a lot more consistent. I was trying to fit some Innocent Bloods into the GBW list, and originally carried them over, but soon realized I didn't need them anymore with Arc/Forked. The bonus there is that they both have a basic functionality that won't change, where Innocent Blood can be dead or sub-optimal in a lot of situations. Right now I run the following split:

3 Arc Trail
3 Forked Bolt
3 Pulse
3 Deed

Absolutely not married to that configuration, but I like to test with 3-ofs so I can get a feel for how useful things are and when.

I think Huntmaster looks pretty good on paper too, but I think serves a fundamentally different role than BBE. He's more of a choke up the board utility guy, whereas BBE provides some sorely needed card advantage.

[Stoyrm]

Has anyone brewed up a GBr list with Huntmaster and such cards? Seems like it should be good with Master of the Wild and Garruk Relentless as well as just being decent in creature matchups. Got to find a way to beat those Jaces!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So the guy that's running Ooze and Elder in a wishboard is now complaining that they cost too much with Zenith? Are you even trying to do anything productive here or just arguing for the sake of arguing? At this point you just look like you're waiting for someone to respond so you can make a rebuttal, and this isn't the only thread you're pulling this shit in.

You're right, there are multiple threads in which I am trying to dispel terrible ideas. I'm particularly frustrated by people playing non-blue decks that show potential that then squandor it by building badly and relying on luck.

1) It's a turn faster to race Ooze online with Wish than with GSZ. Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Finks/Ooze, versus turn 4 Finks or turn 3 Ooze/Turn 4 Activate with GSZ under normal conditions.

2) Living Wish gives you access to Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith which help run down graveyard/aggressive decks in the early game before those are the optimal Wish targets, in addition to generally giving you more flexibility.

3) Wish doesn't end up with you drawing those cards in situations where they're vanilla beats.

4) I mean also it's not a dead card off of Bloodbraid Elf. I mean this should be a no-brainer.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ok, so what can you Zenith for that leaves your opponent 2 turns of life, since Deranged Hermit isn't good?

Nothing. There is no Zenithable Grave Titan that doesn't cost a fuckton of mana. I mean if you want to pay eight mana there's Avenger of Zendikar.

I mean this is one of the long list of reasons you should just play Living Wish. You can always grab a Grave Titan with it when you want, or if you think they have StP you can grab something that dodges it like Thrun or Gigapede. The entire question of what's better to get with GSZ is irrelevant because the point is that GSZ isn't good in the deck. Or at least it's clunky and worse than a perfectly viable alternative.


I may be missing something but other than Knight of the Reliquary and Progenitus, what are the guys "good on their own" that you can Zenith for?
Qasali Pridemage?
Noble Hierarch?
Gaddock Teeg?
Sylvan Safekeeper?
Scryb Ranger?

They're all NICE but hardly ever good on their own, they require to fit a strategy or they're hardly ever good.
Scryb Ranger wasn't even a card before Vendilion Clique gained popularity MD, for example, Noble Hierach is the best mana dork available, but far from game breaking/winning, same goes for the other green dudes that see play.
Each of them has flaws and is somewhat vanilla, but together they're good!

Just like Liliana and Pernicious, together with Hermit or Ooze.

I mean first of all GSZ is in Maverick to do two things primarily;

1) Be a turn 1 mana accelerant
2) Be KotR 5-8

Dryad Arbor is terrible in a Deed-based deck and you can't run KotR. You're stuck running green answer cards, which Maverick does to some extent, but with the support structure in place so that these cards can actually be threatening which Nic Fit lacks. And even then Maverick runs a smaller toolbox of otherwise mediocre creatures than I've seen in most lists in this thread.

[Chikenbok]

Just started playing this deck and having a blast with it - just thought I'd get that out of the way.

I'm not trying to engage in any form of polemic, my question is simply this (I play a GBw version for swords and rector) - if one were to cut GSZ and the wonky creatures that go along with it, it appears you're now left with a whole ton of space in the deck to toy around with. What gets jammed in there?

Redundancy? Bigger toys (heh)?

Supposing we all agree on the premise of:

3 deeds
3 forms of spot removal/reach (swords, bolt, arc trail, etc)
2/3 pulses
4 veteran explorers
4 cabal therapy
and 21 land it seems like this deck is more customizable then a doomsday shell.

If we go for redundancy in hand disruption (hymn, seize, IoK, etc) we gain an advantage on combo and lose an edge on the aggro race whereas if we run out innocent bloods and more removal like the old standstill decks we're even colder to combo.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but perhaps someone might chime in and we can get this 'forum' chugging along.

Here is my list for reference:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Grave Titan
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Academy Rector
1 Sun Titan


SB - for a different discussion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, for instance, if you cut the GSZs for Wishes you would immediately clear up 9 spaces and turn Dryad Arbor into a more resilient land. You could run the next two Tops, the fourth StP, 4 Hymn and have two slots left over; I would recommend the fourth Deed and another Witness.

Alternately you could drop the playset of Tops for Wall of Blossoms, drop Hymn for Black Cat and focus a bit on Recurring Nightmare and other creature tricks.

Do you actually get a lot of use out of Liliana in this deck?

[Chikenbok]

Well, for instance, if you cut the GSZs for Wishes you would immediately clear up 9 spaces and turn Dryad Arbor into a more resilient land. You could run the next two Tops, the fourth StP, 4 Hymn and have two slots left over; I would recommend the fourth Deed and another Witness.

Alternately you could drop the playset of Tops for Wall of Blossoms, drop Hymn for Black Cat and focus a bit on Recurring Nightmare and other creature tricks.

Do you actually get a lot of use out of Liliana in this deck?

Liliana is 70% of the reason I play the deck. Sun Titan, Lili, and Deed with the recurring nightmare make for some of the most bonkers plays I've experienced in magic.

I'm always willing to toss something in the bin, or kill something bothering me. She is *rarely* an expensive edict.

Its kind of like cheating. Also, the one reason I enjoy GSZ for now is with Lili out forcing people to discard on a stalled board, ripping the GSZ is never a 'dead' draw. However, this argument does not either make stronger or weaker the argument towards running wishes instead.

However, considering what you had said, I'd LOVE to be able to run the fourth deed, and the fourth sword - But I've found hymn to be kind of 'meh' these days... I know.. I know.. I'm sorry I said it but against the decks it matters against I'd almost always prefer to just hit em with a thoughtseize and take what I want. There's nothing worse than seeing the look of relief in an opponents face when your hymn hits something pointless. But there's also nothing better than seeing the look in their eyes when it hits key card x and y. I guess that's why targeted duresses work for me, backed up with lili its just ridiculous.

I might go up to 3 Lili's and cut something.

[igri_is_a_bk]

If you use Living Wish, you could easily add Dark Depths combo in there. Here's what I'm playing today. I'll post more later.

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [UL] Treetop Village

// Creatures
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
2 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Living Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

[Anusien]

You're right, there are multiple threads in which I am trying to dispel terrible ideas. I'm particularly frustrated by people playing non-blue decks that show potential that then squandor it by building badly and relying on luck.

1) It's a turn faster to race Ooze online with Wish than with GSZ. Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Finks/Ooze, versus turn 4 Finks or turn 3 Ooze/Turn 4 Activate with GSZ under normal conditions.

2) Living Wish gives you access to Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith which help run down graveyard/aggressive decks in the early game before those are the optimal Wish targets, in addition to generally giving you more flexibility.

3) Wish doesn't end up with you drawing those cards in situations where they're vanilla beats.

4) I mean also it's not a dead card off of Bloodbraid Elf. I mean this should be a no-brainer.
Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Ooze sounds like a gameplan that will never win anything.

One of the things about Wish versus GSZ is you're choosing vulnerability to Spell Snare or vulnerability to Daze.

Has anyone justified not running Stoneforge Mystic in the white versions?


By the way, are there any discard outlets besides Therapy that don't suck? Sadistic Hypnotist is the best I can come up with, and that's not impressive. Recurring Nightmare is slow and you can't really set it up or afford to run bullets for it. Abyssal Gakekeeper would be insane if you had more reliable sacrifice outlets.

[Chikenbok]

Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Ooze sounds like a gameplan that will never win anything.

One of the things about Wish versus GSZ is you're choosing vulnerability to Spell Snare or vulnerability to Daze.

Has anyone justified not running Stoneforge Mystic in the white versions?


By the way, are there any discard outlets besides Therapy that don't suck? Sadistic Hypnotist is the best I can come up with, and that's not impressive. Recurring Nightmare is slow and you can't really set it up or afford to run bullets for it. Abyssal Gakekeeper would be insane if you had more reliable sacrifice outlets.

The question I asked myself when I was splashing white was, 'does the deck need a SFM'. I thought - there is nothing in the deck that can be snared yet (assuming you're GSZ'ing for certain things) and blanking all of the hate people have for the card seems nice. I did try and test the deck with SFM and I found that it allowed for my opponent to interact all too well with me slamming giant monsters into their faces.

On that note, I was doing some brainstorming and came up with a list that relies much less on smashing huge monsters into faces, and much more and dominating peoples lives with planeswalkers and hand disruption.

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Academy Rector
2 Sun Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains

Might be something worth considering - gonna try and run it through the gauntlet tonight.

[Richard Cheese]

Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Ooze sounds like a gameplan that will never win anything.

One of the things about Wish versus GSZ is you're choosing vulnerability to Spell Snare or vulnerability to Daze.

Has anyone justified not running Stoneforge Mystic in the white versions?


By the way, are there any discard outlets besides Therapy that don't suck? Sadistic Hypnotist is the best I can come up with, and that's not impressive. Recurring Nightmare is slow and you can't really set it up or afford to run bullets for it. Abyssal Gakekeeper would be insane if you had more reliable sacrifice outlets.

I ran SFM in my GBW version. Really strong against Maverick and UW, not great against RUG Tempo. It really gave their Snares and Stifles a ton of value, and just overall was too slow. I don't think it's necessarily a bad option at all, but it depends on what kind of meta you expect.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, one last note on Deranged Hermit; you should probably be running Treetop Village anyway as an answer to Jace (maybe Stirring Wildwood if you're running white), so if anything I'd rather run Primeval Titan in that slot. If they StP it you gain a lot more than 1 life; it won't be taken care of by red spells or Dismember or Smother; and even a board clearer like, you know, another deck with Deed doesn't take care of your double Treetops (or Treetop + Stronghold or whatever, or Wolfrun if you're in red.)

[Anusien]

If Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull is too slow, then Kitchen Finks is way too slow (since they are basically the same speed).

[Anusien]

Which cards are actually worth a wishboard slot?
Some sort of Wickerbough Elder type card
Shriekmaw
Grave Titan
Scavenging Ooze/Bokuka Bog
Thrashing Wumpus

Really, I look at all these cards, and then I look at Tarmogoyf + Knight of the Reliquary + Stoneforge Mystic, and I wonder why I'm not playing those cards instead.

[CorpT]

What's the current feeling on Punishing Fire/Grove in this deck? I saw a version that won a Magic League with it. Seems pretty interesting.

[TheArchitect]

Oh, one last note on Deranged Hermit; you should probably be running Treetop Village anyway as an answer to Jace (maybe Stirring Wildwood if you're running white), so if anything I'd rather run Primeval Titan in that slot. If they StP it you gain a lot more than 1 life; it won't be taken care of by red spells or Dismember or Smother; and even a board clearer like, you know, another deck with Deed doesn't take care of your double Treetops (or Treetop + Stronghold or whatever, or Wolfrun if you're in red.)

Now there we go, this actually sounds like a good alternative to deranged hermit. It does every thing hermit druid was trying to do although it takes up a few more slots in your deck (lands), it might be well worth it AND the lands can be useful in their own. I will have to give this a try.

Right now I am just running primal hunters, but I think walker heavy might be the way to go. They give you great card advantage, are hard to deal with for most decks and win the game for you in the grindy match ups. EDIT: I like chikenboks last list he posted as it goes in this direction.

I am still not sold on wishes, but I dont think they are a bad idea by means either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I almost take it as a premise at this point that any serious control deck has to be planeswalker-based to a very large extent. It's a really retarded card type that just gives way too much value in a gameplan that wants to see multiple turns for you to ignore.

[Greenpoe]

Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Ooze sounds like a gameplan that will never win anything.

One of the things about Wish versus GSZ is you're choosing vulnerability to Spell Snare or vulnerability to Daze.

Has anyone justified not running Stoneforge Mystic in the white versions?


By the way, are there any discard outlets besides Therapy that don't suck? Sadistic Hypnotist is the best I can come up with, and that's not impressive. Recurring Nightmare is slow and you can't really set it up or afford to run bullets for it. Abyssal Gakekeeper would be insane if you had more reliable sacrifice outlets.

Darkblast is playable, at least, as a sac-outlet- hitting quite a few important creatures in the format- Clique, Delver, etc.

[Tao]

I tried Stoneforge Mystic for a while and I had the same problem with it that I have with Ooze. It just gets killed. Everyone is ready to kill 2-drops. If you want Batterskull I think you would be better off playing Batterskull without Stoneforge, it saves deck space and there is no way that a Sword of any kind would ever be good in this.

[Stoyrm]

What's the current feeling on Punishing Fire/Grove in this deck? I saw a version that won a Magic League with it. Seems pretty interesting.

Do you have list? I think this might be an answer to U/W Stoneforge while as well improving some other creature matchups. However, not sure Combo gets any better.

[zalachan]

What about UBG list, that was mentioned around the time MM was banned? Is that a solid choice for the current meta or is it too fragile against Stoneblade and Maverick?
I like Jace TMS with Deed and Brainstorm is quite nice (the amount of chaff we draw sometimes is just brutal). Besides, Progenitus is that big finisher of choice.. the bad thing is that it comes with more dead cards (4x Natural Order, 4x Green Sun's Zenith seems awkward at least).

[Philipp2293]

What's the current feeling on Punishing Fire/Grove in this deck? I saw a version that won a Magic League with it. Seems pretty interesting.

I played this version with minor changes to a 4-1 at a local, my loss was to Merfolk, which was pretty weird, since it should be a decent MU. Won vs Mono W Equipment, Mono W Lifegain, Reanimator and another Merfolk player.

Fires was pretty good since it allowed me to easily dominate the board. 3 Pulse MD also felt really good.

Next thing I want to try ist Huntmaster of the Fells as soon as he arrives via mail.
Also, what's the opinion on Primeval Titan in this build? Would allow to grab missing Groves. I would also try to squeeze in a Wolf Run in that case, since it turns any random dude into a clock even if your Titan got sworded.

[CorpT]

Do you have list? I think this might be an answer to U/W Stoneforge while as well improving some other creature matchups. However, not sure Combo gets any better.

This is the one I saw that intrigued me.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7600&iddeck=55208


I played this version with minor changes to a 4-1 at a local, my loss was to Merfolk, which was pretty weird, since it should be a decent MU. Won vs Mono W Equipment, Mono W Lifegain, Reanimator and another Merfolk player.

Fires was pretty good since it allowed me to easily dominate the board. 3 Pulse MD also felt really good.

Next thing I want to try ist Huntmaster of the Fells as soon as he arrives via mail.
Also, what's the opinion on Primeval Titan in this build? Would allow to grab missing Groves. I would also try to squeeze in a Wolf Run in that case, since it turns any random dude into a clock even if your Titan got sworded.

That's basically what I was thinking. I saw people complaining about Delver tempo and Fires seems to be a very goof answer for that. Huntmaster also seems like a very good option I was considering.

[Chikenbok]

New list after the gauntlet - its really good. The deck needs top but hates multiples, I think 2 is the right number for now.

//Stuff that makes my opponents upset
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

//Stuff that wins the games
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Sun Titan
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze

//Stuff that helps me play the stuff that wins the games
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top


//Land stuff
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains

The only thing I'm really unhappy with is, now that I cut the GSZ, snare has legal targets.

Sigh.. Back to testing.

[Qweerios]

Manlands are actually a pretty good suggestion. Paired with Liliana, they can be quite deadly. Having a couple Treetops or Wildwoods also adds another dimension to playing Primeval Titan, it might even be better than Grave Titan.

[Stoyrm]

Punishing NicFit

Creatures: 13
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Grave Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Broodmate Dragon

Spells: 26
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Thoughtseize

Lands: 22
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Mountain

After a bit of testing i've decided to go with the 3 Explorer, 1 Birds. Reasoning being that drawing the 2nd Explorer is pretty bad. Also, having Gaddock Teeg in the board, i can actually cast it with Birds should i draw it. I'm not quite sure on the build quite yet, but it seems like an okay starting point atm. Fighting off Jaces and small critters should be a lot easier, in theory atleast.

EDIT: Trying out a second Garruk Relentless instead of a Master of the Wild Hunt as well. Reasoning; It dies to more removal than Garruk does.

[Alexeezay]

Nice list! I will try it out next week, adding a Garruk instead of Master of the Wildhunt

[Atlanos]

Maybe -2 Misty + 2 Foothills to fetch for Mountain ;).

[Chikenbok]

From my last list I added 1 treetop village and cut -1 Sun Titan +1 Primevil Titan. Will post results after some testing.

[Philipp2293]

Today was my first real life tournament with Huntmaster of the Fells (replacing the last Kitchen Finks in my MD). Card was great all day, you gain so much more value out if it compared to Kitchen Finks. I recommend everyone playing Jund colored lists to at least consider him.

[igri_is_a_bk]

How come this deck doesn't use four SDT? I always want one in my opener. They are never bad in multiples, and make a lot of sense with people using random shit like a single Recurring Nightmare or Planeswalker X in their lists.

[Philipp2293]

I agree that the deck needs some healthy amount of tops, currently I'm running 3. Maybe 4 is the right call, but atm my deck is pretty tight between removal, some disruption, the basics and the toolbox, so I dunno really what to cut.

Another point I'd like to raise for Jund colored Nic Fit: Has anybody ever considered running a singleton Gaddock Teeg in the SB? Sure it sucks to draw him naturally, but usually combo players do not expect hatebears from Jund and won't side accordingly.

If you're in a small meta and your opponents start to know the trick you can also start mindfucking them ala "Have I brought my Teeg this time or not?" Maybe this is BS, maybe its worth a try.

[dalai lamer]

So basically me and a friend of mine are reading this thread for a very long time now, and we playtested a nic fit version which is kind of different than those common ones you guys are talking about:


// Lands
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [B] Bayou
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Forest (1a)
2 [ZEN] Swamp (1a)
2 [ZEN] Island (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [M12] Grave Titan
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [M10] Master of the Wild Hunt

// Spells
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [B] Regrowth
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 [INN] Garruk Relentless


As you can see, our list takes the advantages of the blue splash in terms of card draw (brainstorm), which leads us to a more control based version with jace. In my opinion, gifts ungiven is a very usefull add for this deck creating neckbreaking piles, wherefore a singleton regrowth is added.

Compared to other lists, I guess we are missing a little bit of pressure but im not sure about it.

Any help/ideas/thoughts?

[Stoyrm]

I agree that the deck needs some healthy amount of tops, currently I'm running 3. Maybe 4 is the right call, but atm my deck is pretty tight between removal, some disruption, the basics and the toolbox, so I dunno really what to cut.

Another point I'd like to raise for Jund colored Nic Fit: Has anybody ever considered running a singleton Gaddock Teeg in the SB? Sure it sucks to draw him naturally, but usually combo players do not expect hatebears from Jund and won't side accordingly.

If you're in a small meta and your opponents start to know the trick you can also start mindfucking them ala "Have I brought my Teeg this time or not?" Maybe this is BS, maybe its worth a try.

I like having it in the SB. I can also play it with the singleton Birds of Paradise should the Teeg end up in my hand. As for the number of tops, i never want to see multiples, but i do like having access to 1. So far, 2 has been fine, but 3 might be correct.

[waSP]

re: dalai lamer
For builds not running Hymn, having double black is not that important. To amp up the pressure a bit, you could cut a Swamp and your Underground Sea for Creeping Tar Pits and run Primeval Titan over Grave Titan.


At this point can we all agree that Birds of Paradise is superior to Dryad Arbor in every case except the 'SURPRISE!' blocker for Goblin Lackey and when you are topdecking with a full 'yard and Recurring Nightmare in hand/play? BoP draws removal much better than Arbor (for all you Ooze-lovers) and adds welcome flexibility when searching out lands.

Gifts Ungiven is extremely powerful in this deck in its ability to find Cabal Therapy (as well as bomb-y things/removal). I don't think making great Gifts piles has been discussed much on this thread yet because so few players are running blue builds.

[Arianrhod]

I think I can agree with that, although I cut it for a 4th Forest instead of for a Bird. Bird is a good idea, although I'm in much the same boat as everyone else at this point regarding cuts. I wouldn't cut an Explorer for a Bird, because lategame the Explorer can still punch somebody for one, where the Bird is completely blank.

I've been out of the Gifts loop for a while, but one of my favorite stacks was always {Sun Titan - Recurring Nightmare - Eternal Witness - [Situational]}. {Academy Rector - Cabal Therapy - Sun Titan - Pernicious Deed} is a good one, too. It either sweeps or sets up game-ending board state, depending on what you need it to do. Also people are really, really stupid with Rector in Gifts piles. It was one of the cards I always got whenever I put it in a pile.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Life from the Loam
Academy Ruins
Engineered Explosives
Volrath's Stronghold
Eternal Witness
Worm Harvest
Raven's Crime
Cabal Therapy

These are the cards I've seen most often in piles.

Here's a question, is the extra card worth the extra mana that Gifts costs compared to Intuition?

[Anusien]

One of the problems with Gifts/Intuition is after you've already spent an entire turn in the early game to cast the spell, most of the piles take an extra turn or two to do anything cool. There are probably decks where you can not do anything for four turns and still win, but I don't know what they are.

[dalai lamer]

One of the problems with Gifts/Intuition is after you've already spent an entire turn in the early game to cast the spell, most of the piles take an extra turn or two to do anything cool. There are probably decks where you can not do anything for four turns and still win, but I don't know what they are.

True, but i guess its most of the time really powerful and if doing right it can change the board as allready mentioned. Furthermore i guess that you should not play gifts straight away in turn 3-4 when you are able to create some bord presence with GSZ instead.

Adding manlands and primeval titan sounds pretty good atm.

RE Intuition: Due to veteran explorer we have always enough mana to play gifts ungiven which is, as far as I see it, simply superior than intuition in this deck.

[Anusien]

If they open on turn 1 Delver turn 2 other guy, Gifts on turn 4 is going to be too slow. Gifts on turn 7 is much slower.

[waSP]

Most of the deck is too slow for Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 other guy. Unless you're running spot removal in the Gifts slot (you may be!), its replacement isn't likely to do a whole lot better. Gifts is how you take control of a game that has stalled. And stalling is what the rest of the deck is for.

[Anusien]

If you just need some game-dominating board on turn 6, pretty much any card will do.

[Koplinchen]

Does anyone know more about that Nic "Scapeshift" Fit deck? I would love to see decklist.

[Koby]

Does anyone know more about that Nic "Scapeshift" Fit deck? I would love to see decklist.

If my memory serves me well...

4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
X Viridian Emissary
X Green Sun's Zenith

2 Valakut
X :r:-duals
X Mountain
X Forest
X Swamp

SB:
1 Scapeshift

I didn't pay attention to much of the match, since it was well in the Scapeshift player's control against RUG Tempo. I imagine a Primeval Titan wouldn't be out of reach for this deck.

[lunabass]

ok so this may be a stupid idea, but how about 4 enlightened tutors in the main? and cutting deed to 1 or 2, cutting 1-2 tops, etc, so that the deck has a green zenith toolbox and a enlightened tutor toolbox?

getting recurring nightmare would be alot easier, and in time a need a well placed deed wil fix the board possition for you, also, sideboarding against combo or dredge would be alot easier, this way you could clear up alot of slots in the sb, and in the deck

you could also afford to play alot more artifacts/enchantments to help you win the game

on the red version: what about burning wish, cut zenith to 3 and 1 in the SB... sounds nice to have acces to 7 zeniths no?
also, you could then create a wishboard against the harder matchups, cabal therapy can be cut to 3 as well, and 1 in the wishboard etc... this deck doesnt have any problem with that kind of mana intensive stuff, and after a explorer, you wouldn't feel the burning wish that much at all

sounds better then living wish anyway :D since your not really giving zenith up

what about summoners pact to get explorer btw? (i'm kinda brainstorming here there isnt much thought put up) the turn after explorer you could always cabal him or use phyrexian tower, of course you would end up losing a turn.

on second thought the pact is a terrible idea

[Stoyrm]

TBH, i like not having any 2 costs in the deck. Nothing gets hit by Spell Snare. This is the reason i'm now playing Thoughtseize instead of Hymn. Also, Hymn puts more pressure on your mana, while not playing them leaves you open to play more exploring (no veterans here) options when it comes to splashes.

[groupcelebration]

I played the G/B version of this deck at a small tournament today. I tried Dungrove Elder in the main deck and I wasn't disappointed. He reached 8 power a few times during the tournament, just in the normal course of my deck doing its thing. He might be better in the sideboard as a GSZ target against aggro and control decks, but he's certainly a beating.

I usually play zoo, but there's something about dropping a Grave Titan in Legacy that I absolutely love!

[enemyofarsenic]

I usually play zoo, but there's something about dropping a Grave Titan in Legacy that I absolutely love!

Amen.

[muscleb]

Having played with Nic Fit for some time now, in my experience playing 3 colors is not really working well. With 3 colors you have to fetch duals if you want to be sure you can cast your spells, which means that you just get wrecked by wastelands really easy.

The advantages of a stable manabase when you are trying to resolve 6 drops in legacy, is not to be underestimated.

Playing two colors also lets you drop the second most awesome bomb in the game: Big Garruk(Grave Titan is numero uno).

[moseby]

groupcelebration

What did you drop for the dungrove? I have contemplated running 1 and done some testing with it. I like Deranged Hermit but paying 10 mana just to end up with 4 1/1 squirrel tokens kind of blows. Also did you alter your mana base? I was thinking of switching it to 5/2 to more easily grow the elder, and possible running a 2nd in the board?

[groupcelebration]

groupcelebration

What did you drop for the dungrove? I have contemplated running 1 and done some testing with it. I like Deranged Hermit but paying 10 mana just to end up with 4 1/1 squirrel tokens kind of blows. Also did you alter your mana base? I was thinking of switching it to 5/2 to more easily grow the elder, and possible running a 2nd in the board?

I'm not playing Deranged Hermit. I don't understand what match-up he's supposed to be good in. He seems like a hail mary that is really easy for a lot of decks to keep under control. Aggro decks dismember or burn him. And blue decks all pack snapcaster plus a million one white mana exile spells.

I guess if you're playing Recurring Nightmare he's probably nuts, but I'm not.

Also for reference I couldn't find any Eternal Witnesses, so I actually run 3 Dungrove Main. I wouldn't advise it, as it was kind of overkill and I'd rather have at least one Witness to GSZ for. But having 1-2 between the main deck and sideboard is probably where I'm going to end up.

My mana base is

4 verdant catacombs
4 wooded foothills
8 forests
2 swamps
3 bayous
1 phyrexian tower
1 dryad arbor

In reality this should be -1 Forest, +1 Bayou. But I just really like playing with basics and I only got mana screwed once. And it was a hand I should have mulliganed anyway.

(I edited this because I forgot the Dryad Arbor)

[groupcelebration]

Having played with Nic Fit for some time now, in my experience playing 3 colors is not really working well. With 3 colors you have to fetch duals if you want to be sure you can cast your spells, which means that you just get wrecked by wastelands really easy.

The advantages of a stable manabase when you are trying to resolve 6 drops in legacy, is not to be underestimated.

Playing two colors also lets you drop the second most awesome bomb in the game: Big Garruk(Grave Titan is numero uno).

I totally agree with your first statement. More so than other decks we need to protect our mana early. It's also important to not walk Veteran Explorer into Swords to Plowshares.

I'm a little torn on Big Garruk though. I think it helps in matches that we're already good at. I think Liliana helps in almost all of our matches. What's your take on him? Do you play him and Liliana?

[sap]

so after getting my deranged hermit stifled the other day i got sick of it, it is pretty awsome with recurring nightmare but usually when i can do that play im already winning anyway so..

so im looking for a 5CC replacement, on my WGB build, there are probably more but these creatures seemed nice:
deity of scars
spiritmonger
kodama of the north tree
thornling
nath of the gilt-leaf
mitotic slime

mitotic slime is actually what seems to be the best deranged hermit replacement, allows the same fun stuff with recurring nightmare without the the echo cost.

opinions?

[groupcelebration]

so after getting my deranged hermit stifled the other day i got sick of it, it is pretty awsome with recurring nightmare but usually when i can do that play im already winning anyway so..

so im looking for a 5CC replacement

Is there a reason it needs to be 5 mana? Because honestly adding another Scavenging Ooze (I hope you're playing at least one!) to your deck will probably improve more matchups then adding a 5 mana creature that does nothing if it gets exiled.

There's also Acidic Slime as a solid option at 5. And if you're running Recurring Nightmare you could use him to mess with your opponents mana.

[from Cairo]

what seems to be the best deranged hermit... opinions?

I'd been running Master of the Wild Hunt as my token generating mid-range Green Sun's Zenith-able target. It has some cool synergies with Garruk Relentless - notably providing the fight effect when you have Deathtouch wolves out, but it also gets Lightning Bolted/Plowed like a champ providing no tokens. I won some games with it, and it gets boarded out for being kind of clunky at times. I don't know. The Deranged Hermit-esque (GSZ-able Titan) slot seems pretty tough to pin down, since there isn't anything that does quite what we want.

I think Deranged Hermit, Ghave, Guru of Spores and Master of the Wild Hunt are probably the 3 that are closest to the target and each have perks over one another.

Hermit can be dirty with Recurring Nightmare, still puts 4 power on the board even if STP'd/Bolted and I think in a vacuum might be the most powerful. Ghave can have some neat interactions with any of the 'Spike' creatures from Tempest Block - Spike Feeder/Spike Weaver or Kitchen Finks. Master of the Wild Hunt works well with other Wolf/Werewolf type cards - IE in the GBr Punishing Fire builds one can run it along side Huntmaster of the Fells and/or the Innistrad Garruk mentioned above.

I don't think any of them are perfect, which is part of peoples' issues with Green Sun's Zenith in general, but in these builds it probably makes sense to pick one that best fits the build and accept it's not perfect.

[TheArchitect]

I have been testing Primeval Titan with 2 treetop villages in the Deranged hermit slot. If he sticks around, he is a brings 12 power with trampler and wins the game, if he doesn't you still have 6 power with trample. When I draw into treetop villages they are kinda nice too. This is a G/B build mind you, so my manabase is stable enough the villages dont hurt it.

Overall, I have liked prime titan MUCH better than hermit druid. Kind of funny too, if prime titan stays around for a couple turns I usually get all 22 lands out of my deck.

I dont play the red spash, but huntsmaster is really good.

[hyperchord24]

I think Grave Titan is better than Deranged Hermit, but one mana is a big deal. Is 5 cc because of birthing pod?

Here's my two cents:
Archon of Justice
Reveillark
Grave-Shell Scarab
Baneslayer Angel
Garruk, Primal Hunter

[Koplinchen]

I am trying red version now and punishing fire is really great. We should beat creature and control decks now. Not like before - that we SHOULD beat them but... It boost liliana significantly, discarding the red spell (we are not forced to hellbent anymore and it kills flash creatures)
Huntmaster of the Fells is fantastic - with punishing fire you can flip him over and over. So much value. I run him instead of hermit and elder. I think its the way to go.

[sap]

Is there a reason it needs to be 5 mana? Because honestly adding another Scavenging Ooze (I hope you're playing at least one!) to your deck will probably improve more matchups then adding a 5 mana creature that does nothing if it gets exiled.
thanks for the help.
yes im playing one ooze MD, i used to run two but gave up on it because it seemed a creature that required such a commitment but tbh i was running birthing pod back then which make it a bit worse.


I'd been running Master of the Wild Hunt as my token generating mid-range Green Sun's Zenith-able target. It has some cool synergies with Garruk Relentless (...)
thanks for the reply.
i am running one Garruk Relentless but never tried Master of the Wild Hunt, i might try it tho that seems a sweet plan.


I think Grave Titan is better than Deranged Hermit, but one mana is a big deal. Is 5 cc because of birthing pod?

Here's my two cents:
Archon of Justice
Reveillark
Grave-Shell Scarab
Baneslayer Angel
Garruk, Primal Hunter
thanks for the reply.
yes its because of birthing pod. i havent give up on that card yet, i run 2 GBw versions with and without birthing pod. i just think it is so powerful against UW stoneblade but its (almost) crap against anything else. but with birthing pod i run about 19 creatures and i try to get a nice curse from 2cc to 6cc thats why i was trying to find a replacement for deranged hermit. theres also gigapede hmm..


I am trying red version now and punishing fire is really great. We should beat creature and control decks now. Not like before - that we SHOULD beat them but... It boost liliana significantly, discarding the red spell (we are not forced to hellbent anymore and it kills flash creatures)
Huntmaster of the Fells is fantastic - with punishing fire you can flip him over and over. So much value. I run him instead of hermit and elder. I think its the way to go.
havent tried GBr yet because lately i have been having a easier time against UW stoneblade (this is one matchup where i love birthing pod) and im scared that without white burn (which is hard already) will be almost impossible.

how do you deal with burn without leyline of sanctity circle of protection: red?
also how good is huntmaster of the fells? he looks nice with punishing fire like you said but if he gets removed its just a 4 power for 4, wouldnt rushing thrun, the last troll just be better? what im saying is, is it worth it to run 1 huntmaster 1 troll instead of just 2 trolls?

[Philipp2293]

I've been recently handed a ultra streamlined list by the pioneer of punishing fire Nic Fit with the full set of Huntmasters, cutting down on utility and Zeniths.

So far it has been pretty strong. Huntmaster adds so much more value then he does on first glance. Since this deck can play really reactive it's not problematic to flip him, and flipping him back is rarely an issue. If I can get 2 more Huntmasters till wednesday I might follow up with a tournament report.

[TheArchitect]

Raping their hand with Therapys and Hymns slows burn down alot, and then I have a Tree of redemption sided at the moment. I haven't actually needed to use it yet, so it might completely suck, but on paper, Tree of redemption seems like it should be very good against burn when they are in topdeck mode, it should buy you ~5 turns and in that time you could find a sac outlet and ewit to recur it.

If there is a better option out there for non-white lists I would be interested to hear them too. I just threw the tree in there last week and havent even gotten to use him yet, so if anyone has how has it worked out?

[CorpT]

I've been recently handed a ultra streamlined list by the pioneer of punishing fire Nic Fit with the full set of Huntmasters, cutting down on utility and Zeniths.

So far it has been pretty strong. Huntmaster adds so much more value then he does on first glance. Since this deck can play really reactive it's not problematic to flip him, and flipping him back is rarely an issue. If I can get 2 more Huntmasters till wednesday I might follow up with a tournament report.

Can you post a list?

[Chikenbok]

I'm surprised that more people aren't attempting to stick more targeted hand disruption into the deck, I feel like t1 duress, t2 cabal therapy - veteran explorer, sac -> flashback is a mildly nutty play.. 4 land turn 2, turn 3 drop a lili and something else fun?

The lists I've been testing have been much less reliant on creatures and attempt to hit the mid game with a dominating board position (usually one/two plainswalkers on the board with a deed to make sure things don't get out of hand)

Here's what I've been toying around with:


3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sun Titan
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dismember

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Treetop Village
1 Phyrexian Tower

[conboy31]

I've been trying out red for Huntmaster of the Fells and Punishing Fire. Liliana has been amazing with Punishing Fire. It is such an easy card to discard that gets free value once they gain life or we get a grove. Also, it makes Liliana's edicts better by clearing x/2s, I am pretty sure the red version wants 3 copies of her compared to the 2ish of BGw. Does anyone have a good manabase for the punishing red version? I have been toying with the numbers and am not yet satisfied.

[groupcelebration]

I'm surprised that more people aren't attempting to stick more targeted hand disruption into the deck, I feel like t1 duress, t2 cabal therapy - veteran explorer, sac -> flashback is a mildly nutty play.. 4 land turn 2, turn 3 drop a lili and something else fun?


I think Inquisition Of Kozilek is a fine replacement for Hymn if you're worried about making BB in your first two turns.

But do you ever struggle with your mana base? Only 20 lands seems low in a deck that wants to hit 4-6 mana. There will be plenty of games where we can't get explorer active right away and if you run into a wasteland you'll be so far behind.

[Chikenbok]

Yeah, the list is actually supposed to be -1 Kitchen Finks + 1 land.

In general the deck isn't trying to *race* to six land and slam a phatty, its supposed to sustain the board state to a point at which having six lands is relevant to our drops, and irrelevant to our opponents. I'm happy sitting on 3-4 land for a few turns so long as the cards in my hand can all either interact with my opponent or with the board.

The deck relies on inevitability. If you can survive the initial onslaught, you win the game. I've been running IoK because it hits everything I really want it to, and cabal therapy hits everything else. Also, Hymn get's snared.

[Tao]

For the questions about the Punishing Fire version here are my experiences and my current list:

- The Mana base is the only reason why I don't play Liliana.
- Living Wish is worth it in testing though it is close. Spell Snare is a nuisance but only 1/4 of the decks plays them, they don't always have it and it isn't game breaking if gets countered. The lack of SB slots hurts but on the other hand you get to play 4x life gain vs. Burn and 4x Yardhate/Karakas cards against Reanimator/Dredge which is as much as you would normally side anyway except that you already get it in G1.
- Punishing Fire/Grove is very good. It is fast enough to effectively combat Delver aggro and gives you a way better game against Jaces. It can completely take over games and even if they have Wasteland for Grove it was still a Ghitu Fire Slinger land.
- My experiences with Huntmaster of the Fells were mostly positive, like all people that played with him. It rarely wins games completely by itself like Thrun when he blanks their 4 spot removals but it gives all kinds of different value. Solid if he does not flip with a high potential upside.
- In the current Meta I like Batterskull. It seems to me like the best resilient win condition that still does something against Delver decks.
- 2 GSZ works fine for me. It allows to have access to more Explorers without having to go overboard on GSZ targets.
- SBing works best by siding in a few useful wish targets if you know what you want to Wish for anyway. Against Reanimator for example you can side in Bog and Ooze because you Wish for Faerie or Karakas anyway. Fleshbag Marauder can almost always come in if they run creatures and you don't need it for Thrun, Prog. or Emrakul.
- Is there nothing useful that you can Wish for against Combo? Have they just not printed a useful land or creature in those three colors? Like Teeg, Canonist, Thalia, Glowrider? Ichneumon Druid doesn't make the cut and currently I use Entomber Exarch which is flexible but embarrassingly slow and ineffective for its mana costs.

// Lands
2 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Living Wish
2 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
SB: 1 [ALA] Caldera Hellion
SB: 1 [M12] Acidic Slime
SB: 1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [ARB] Anathemancer
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Looks pretty solid all-in-all. I've also liked Fire/Grove in my testing, although I haven't been dedicating the full 8 slots to it in the Jund builds I've been messing around with on MWS. But there are a few notes/questions I have:

-I get it that accommodating Lilliana is a pain in the ass, mana-base wise, but I can't help but feel like it would be worthwhile. She's incredibly strong in tandem with Punishing Fire, and you can probably sneak some more black sources in there. I'm not entirely sure if you need the second Mountain or the fourth Grove (Grove is more necessary than 2nd Mountain, obv. But I think committing four slots to Grove might be messing up your mana a little harder than it needs to be.)

-2 GSZ/ 4 Living Wish seems like a pretty intelligent split.

-The third Huntsmaster seems a little like overkill/ it might be better to toss in a Thrun or a third Witness instead. Also, maybe it's just cute, but I think you should experiment with supplementing him with Master of the Wild Hunt and Garruk Relentless for some hot wolf-on-opponent action.

-WTF is with the two maindeck Nihil Spellbombs? Even if this is a meta call, it kind of seems like a weird one without some justification.

-How often is Wishing for Genesis useful, really? You don't really have reliable ways to bin him right now (cough, Liliana would work here), and he seems like he'd only be good in the grindiest of attrition games, which you should already be decently prepared for. Plus you already have Anathemancer to wish for in those matches.

-In general, I think your Wish-board looks pretty good, but I think you might be wasting too many spaces on it. 12 slots is pretty heavy.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Nihil Spellbomb:

I guess it's just another way to take care of KotR with PunFir in addition to the Bojuka Bog in the board, while being effective against other decks, like Dredge or Snapcaster.dec etc...

Actually, i'd love to play 4 Liliana along pun Fire, but we couldn't make the mana work either.

@Tao:

Did you follow the NO BUG plan a little further after the MM banning? I am tinkering around with a list and i am not sure if NO is needed or if it's just a worse version of Jace Landeed. The Liliana/Jace interaction is just so good, that i don't want to pass upon them.

[Alexeezay]

Isn't it simply better to play Scavenging oozes instead of the Nihil Spellbombs md?
I would also play some REB/Pyroblast in the SB

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Ooze is slow against some decks and against Maverick you don't always have the time to to chew up Lands. I can totally understand the Nihils especially when there is a lot of Dredge and Reanimator.

[Stoyrm]

Apparently my other build had two cards to much (woops)

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Broodmate Dragon

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize

4 Punishing Fire

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountains
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana of the Veil

This is what i'm looking at now. I have found myself disliking Hymn in this deck as it's now a three color deck. I've added Thoughtseize instead. It's possible it should be Inquisition now that i have Punishing Fire to deal with Jaces etc. I think however that Liliana is needed now that i have Punishing Fire (they're really good together) as well as the fact that it's just a really good card. It is possible that the Skeletal Scrying should go out for another Pulse, a Dismember or something of the sort. Or even another threat as i find myself feeling a bit threat light.

@Tao: I see you cut all the Pulses, is it because you no longer fear the planeswalkers, so you'll just play Innocent Blood instead?

[Malakai]

Green Sun's Zenith seems rather terrible in this deck. The only things I'm remotely excited about doing with it are getting Dryad Arbor on 1, or Veteran Explorer on two. The rest of the time it can't get anything exciting, although Ooze will occasionally be a real card.

The reason it's so good in Maverick is that it either gets a backbreaking utility card, or it gets Knight of the Reliquary. This deck is missing the second half of that equation, and oh god no Deranged Hermit does not count.

[He's good with Recurring Nightmare, but every time I draw that I'm going to wonder why it's not just Liliana.]

[Tao]

- Nihil Spellbomb: I think two of them in the main are good in the current meta. It is awesome vs. Dredge and Reanimator, kills Knight of the Reliquary safely in combination with one P. Fire and is a good value card in the mirror, against Snapcaster or other randomness. Plus it cycles when it does nothing else. I don't understand why people are so reluctant to run MD yard hate.
- Pulses/Liliana: I wouldn't blame anyone for playing them. If I wouldn't run Living Wish I would cut a Spellbomb and play 2 Pulses, 2 Lilianas and a 3rd Inquisition.
- REB/Pyroblast: Unfortunately there is no room because of the Wishboard and Duresses are more important.
- Genesis: If I have no idea what to wish for I wish for Genesis. You can sac it to Therapy or Tower if you want it in the yard. Could be a Grave Titan, Gigapede or Wurmcoil Engine, too. I have no idea which is the most reliable win con.

[Malakai]

So here's all the remotely playable 4 drop creatures:
Abyssal Persecutor
Bloodbraid Elf
Olivia Voldaren
Bloodline Keeper
Master of the Wild Hunt
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Chameleon Colossus
Thrun
Masticore
Mystic Enforcer
Phyrexian Obliterator
Skinrender
Solemn Simulacrum

and remotely playable 5 drops:
Acidic Slime
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Havengul Lich
Lord of Extinction
Reveillark
Shriekmaw
Siege-Gang Commander
Spiritmonger
Vorapede
Baneslayer Angel
Vulturous Zombie

[Arianrhod]

I'd definitely add Huntmaster to that list. I've been tinkering with a red list on Cockatrice since that seems to be what everyone is excited about at the moment. While I'm not in any hurry to change my Rector list, I will concede that Huntmaster is the real deal. Even if it isn't flipping back and forth like crazy, it applies serious pressure while also acting like a Kitchen Finks to support Arenas. Olivia is very exciting, but at the same time, Bolt is worrisome. You'd basically have to play her like a 6-drop to dodge that problem. Still, she could very much take a game over on her own.

I like the idea of a 4/2 split of Wish to GSZ, although I am unsure of what I would want in the sb. Probably Ooze, Karakas, Bog, and a hefty wincon of some kind; then maybe matchup specific stuff like Canonist, Kataki, an extra Finks? If I can figure out a wishboard for tonight, I'll try the Wishes at my local. Otherwise I'll run the same list I've been running. Mystic Enforcer has been pretty ridiculous in testing, although threshold is sometimes annoying to get since Therapies exile, as do Rectors. Still, having a GSZ-able flyer is amazing.

EDIT: Thanks, Malakai, for not putting Hermit on the list of playable 5-drops. He very much doesn't belong. I wouldn't consider Vorapede, either, personally. It needed haste to be good, IMO.

[Stoyrm]

Why isn't Master of the Wild Hunt playable? It repeatedly kills Snapcaster Mages, Cliques, Elves, but then again i might not need it when i have Punishing Fire. However it seems like it would really lock up some of the elves matches i have to play around here ^^,. Also Wickerbough Elder has been fine in testing. Not really amazing, but fine. Catch all.

[Arianrhod]

I didn't even notice that Master wasn't on that list -- ironic, since I've been running one for a while now. The thing with Master is that he's good if you have additional support in the deck for him. He rarely takes over a game completely by himself, although it can happen...it's just not usually worth the slot to run him by himself, IMO. However, my list is running 3 Garruk Relentless, primarily because of Rector, but it also provides enough synergy to make Master amazing. That's one of the fun and obnoxious things about building this deck -- it's a heaping pile of synergies. What works for one list won't work for another. IE, Bloodbraid Elf (also on that list) would work really well with Living Wish, but not with GSZ. You really need to start the list with some design considerations and then go from there. But yeah, I would definitely add Master to that list of 4-drops (at least for some versions of the deck).

[Malakai]

I added both of those cards, although I would rather cast Olivia than either one of them.

The only way I can currently rationalize running Green Sun's Zenith is if I am playing white, and have multiple Knight of the Reliquary.

My hunch is that the optimal list features the following:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer

[Arianrhod]

I'd agree with all of those, except for Liliana of the Veil. She didn't impress me at all when I ran her. I would add that in a Punishing Fire version, I could certainly get behind her...but in a GBW list, or even straight GB, I don't think that the means to use her appropriately exists. She's at her best when you can either break the symmetry of her discard (Fire), or when you can keep your opponent permanently hand-locked (Pox). If you can't do either of those things, I don't think Liliana is the card for you.

I would define the core of the deck as such:

4 Explorer
4 Therapy
3 Deed

I think that everything else is completely dependent on the individual strategies that the list is trying to incorporate. Some number of Garruk Relentless is probably correct regardless of specifics, but I think that that number could vary anywhere from 1 to 3, depending on the list.

[groupcelebration]

Green Sun's Zenith seems rather terrible in this deck. The only things I'm remotely excited about doing with it are getting Dryad Arbor on 1, or Veteran Explorer on two. The rest of the time it can't get anything exciting, although Ooze will occasionally be a real card.

The reason it's so good in Maverick is that it either gets a backbreaking utility card, or it gets Knight of the Reliquary.

Being able to reliably get Explorer is definitely a big reason for GSZ. But I think it depends on what creatures you put into your deck.

I like it for grabbing acidic slime, dungrove elder, eternal witness, and scavenging ooze. Ooze has been so good to me, I'm seriously considering going up to 3 main deck. Ooze straight up wrecks a lot of decks, especially considering how much green mana this deck can put on the board when you're only running 2 colors. In the 3 color build he might not be as good though.

[groupcelebration]

Why isn't Master of the Wild Hunt playable? It repeatedly kills Snapcaster Mages, Cliques, Elves, but then again i might not need it when i have Punishing Fire. However it seems like it would really lock up some of the elves matches i have to play around here ^^,. Also Wickerbough Elder has been fine in testing. Not really amazing, but fine. Catch all.

He's certainly good, but the snapcaster/clique decks tend to have infinite one mana exile spells or lightning bolts depending on their splash color. So I can't imagine he stays on the board the two turns you need him to, in order for him to make a difference. For the same mana you can land Ooze and pull a few instants out of their graveyard to limit Snapcasters function. And if he gets to live until you untap, you can pretty much empty their graveyard and maybe gain some life.

I haven't really played against elves, but he seems slow against them. They can just rip a glimpse and go off against you anytime after turn 2 right? It seems like you just want to ruin their hand early and hope to land a deed to slow the game down. But I will admit to not knowing a lot about the matchup.

[Stoyrm]

He's certainly good, but the snapcaster/clique decks tend to have infinite one mana exile spells or lightning bolts depending on their splash color. So I can't imagine he stays on the board the two turns you need him to, in order for him to make a difference. For the same mana you can land Ooze and pull a few instants out of their graveyard to limit Snapcasters function. And if he gets to live until you untap, you can pretty much empty their graveyard and maybe gain some life.

I haven't really played against elves, but he seems slow against them. They can just rip a glimpse and go off against you anytime after turn 2 right? It seems like you just want to ruin their hand early and hope to land a deed to slow the game down. But I will admit to not knowing a lot about the matchup.

I do agree against UW Stoneforge and such he might not be good. In the elves matchup all that it's about is usually about landing a deed, blowing them out and then make sure they stay that way. A deed followed by Master of the Wild Hunt is often pretty game. Against other creature decks he's pretty okay as well. But i do agree, he's a rather cute card. I'll test it some more :).

[from Cairo]

I think Master of the Wild Hunt is totally playable, but not great against UW Blade (due to the mentioned infy exile effects), a GSZ @ 4 should almost certainly fetch Thrun over him. There are plenty of other matches where Master's good though like against agro and midrange - Gobs, Folk, Zoo, Maverick, Deadguy, the mirror etc. He can be a fine top deck against most fair decks if you're both looking for a threat to break a standstill.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Just thinking aloud: Is it worth trying Pattern of Rebirth and Emrakul in this deck (1 of each)? Advantages:

1. Pattern can be tutored for with Enlightened Tutor
2. Pattern is kinda good even though you should be so unlucky to have emrakul in your hand (find gravetitan, sun titan, whatever)
3. Pattern can be semi-tutored for with Academy Rector

Disadvantages:

1. If you have Emrakul in your hand, and you don't play Liliana, is there any way to shuffle him back in the library?
2. Requires two slots in the deck.

[hyperchord24]

^Would this be the same question as "is natural order and progenitus worth running in this deck"?

I think there are more answers to Emrakul than there are to Progenitus in the format. Plus Pattern may be too slow.

[Malakai]

If we use the following requirements for 4-5 drops, we generate an interesting list.

Requirements:

The card generates incremental advantage if unanswered
or
The card wins the game if we untap.


List (creatures only):
Olivia Voldaren
Bloodline Keeper
Master of the Wild Hunt
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Phyrexian Obliterator
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Havengul Lich

Of these, the ones I actually like are:
Huntsmaster of the Fells (sort of)
Olivia Voldaren
Master of the Wild Hunt
Anowon, the Ruin Sage

Master and Huntsmaster both play rather poorly with Deed.

I haven't bothered to look at non-creature options. Garruk Relentless is clearly insane, but I wonder if there are others.

[Malakai]

Why would you want to do a bunch of durdling around to put an Emrakul in play when you could just hardcast a card that wins almost as well? The historical problem decks like these have had is that they spend too much time being cute instead of just playing cards that win the game.

I mean, shit, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those cards that I'm proposing above is just as big an offender.

I want my opponent to cast Vendilion Clique, look at my hand, look at his hand, then concede the game.

[TheArchitect]

If we use the following requirements for 4-5 drops, we generate an interesting list.

Requirements:

The card generates incremental advantage if unanswered
or
The card wins the game if we untap.



While none of the creatures are you listed are bad choices, I think we need a different requirements:
1 - The card generates IMMEDIATE card advantage AND must be dealt with or will win the game in a few turns

- OR -

2 - The card Generates incremental card advantage AND is hard to remove.


A card meeting ether set of requirements will insure 2 things: inevitable CA and a win con if they can't remove it.


Cards that meet the first requirements:
- Huntsmaster
- Primeval titan + 1-2 treetop villages (best option imo)
- Grave Titan
- Hermit Druid (inefficient)

Cards that meet the 2nd requirements:
- Garruk Primal Hunter
- Garruk Relentless (found him underwhelming)
- Liliana of the Viel
- Elsepth/sorin maybe?

The problem with stuff like Master of the Wild hunt, Olivia, etc is they can just trade one for one with bolts or swords and you gain no CA and lost your bomb while your opponent lost one mana and a card he effectively has 4-12 of. Also, prime titan is a tank. I have been playing him lately. I dont think I have lost a game where he hits the table. 12 power with trample is pretty hard, and I have actually liked drawing into treetop villages too.

Alternatively, if we could somehow form a list with really high threat density and a way to insure we'd have the mana to fuel 4 drop after 4 drop, things like Oliva, nath and master of the wild hunt would be much better. But when we only have 4-6 bomby creatures like them in the deck they are just going to eat removal every time. I am not sure what the right number is, but I am guessing over 10 which might be hard to fit in.

I like to think of this deck as more of a control deck and so your threats need to have quality over quantity which is why I think titans and PW are probably our best bet for win cons. Huntsmaster I havent tested yet, but he looks like he would be strong too.

Most top legacy decks have a really hard time dealing with PW. Even this deck which packs pulses, discard, and dudes with trample still hates seeing a jace or elsepth from UW control. They ALWAYS generate CA, worst possible case: you play one use an ability to make a token, diabolic edict your opponent, etc and then they have to waste a turn swinging at the walker or bolting it. And if they DONT swing at it, bolt it, etc you get even more value out of them. And if left unanswered, or if you can protect them, they win the game.

[moseby]

Yes you can cabal therapy Emrakul out of your own hand, the only problem is that you have to reveal your hand once therapy resolves. My other concern with PoR is that they may be able to kill the dude you are trying to put it on. Also can the effect be stifled? here is the oracle text:

When enchanted creature dies, that creature's controller may search his or her library for a creature card and put that card onto the battlefield. If that player does, he or she shuffles his or her library.

The last thing is you need to have an outlet to kill the dude. I realize that we should have about a dozen ways to do so but you are not guaranteed to have one in hand every time you need it.

[Koplinchen]

Hello everyone,

In last week I am working on "jund" version of this deck. I liked the idea of punishing fire because I felt that decks like maverick or merfolk still held some chance and inclusion of red instant doesnt only means they are dead and buried but it also dramaticaly improves control matchup leaving combo as the only weakness.

I am not completely sure with nubmers of all the choices yet.

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze ................. really good
2 Eternal Witness ..................can bring back wasted grove
3 Huntmaster of the Fells ..................this card is insane. Its mabye incorrect to run 3
and not to run Thrun, but its so good. Generates instant
CA and with nightmare or Pfire you can flip it over and
over. Gain life!
1 Primeval Titan ...............not such a beast like his black counterpart, but
still beating. Included obvisously because
you can fetch him with GSZ. Even if he gets the boot he
still brings you two groves. I sould mabye add some
manlands - not sure about that one.
1 Grave Titan ......... two turn clock


4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire .......great with Liliana. You all know that.
3 Sensei DT ........I want to draw one every single game. After side
I keep Mindbreak Trap on top all game and only play it
on his Tendrils. GG.
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstorm Puls ........dont like them. Hate to see one in my opening seven.
1 Recurring Nightmare .........always good. dont need to fetch it.
3 Liliana ......even better in this version. no more hellbant thx to
PF
1 Garruk Relentless .......Love him. He can do everything. It can fetch B titan.

lands - not sure about manlands
3forest
2swamp
1moutain
1Phyrexian Tower
4Grove of Burnwillows
1bayou
1taiga
1badland
4verdant catacomb
3wooded foothills


Deck really works. What do guys think?

[Qweerios]

It should be stifle-able because the rule text starts with "when", which makes it a triggered ability.

I agree on Planeswalkers being apropriate for this deck. They greatly affect the board, are very difficult to deal with (especialy for creature-light decks), and they will burry your opponent 6 feet under post Deed/Damnation. I have been toying around with 5-6 Planeswalkers in my GBw version for a while now and I believe that:

Liliana of the Veil is one of the best Planeswalkers availlable. She will quickly choke your opponent to topdeck mode, and from there, she is very difficult to get rid of. You can safely play four copies without suffering from the Legendary rule.

All the other Planeswalkers for this version are token generators. Garruk, Primal Hunter is the strongest of them. The tokens he produces have a significant size and will trump most utility creatures in the format. He will also break standstills by allowing you to draw 3+ cards. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a close second to Primal Hunter offering more reach. I have mixed feelings about Garruk Relentless though. He can feel very apropriate when he acts as removal and follows up as a tutor, but in most cases, he doesn't. Generally, he remains Relentless and acts as a wolfblossom. The tokens he generate are very underwhelming and usually act as chumpblockers. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is a weaker version of Elspeth. Despite playing all of those Planeswalkers and Deranged Hermit, his anthem was never an important factor.

As I play Nic Fit more and more, I am starting to realize how uneeded and dangerous splashing a 3rd color is. Using more color heavy cards (Liliana, Primal Hunter, Witness, Hymn, etc.) is often neglected because of the strain it puts on a 3color manabase. One of the arguments in favor of playing 3 colors is that an Explorer trigger grants us a stable 3color manabase. However, in the absence of that trigger, 3color Nic Fit lists are often stranded for mana and easely cut off. Even though Punishing Fit offers great synergy and a very powerful engine, it does so at the cost of having an extremely vulnerable manabase.

One of the recurring themes for splashing a 3rd color is the availlability of better removal. Whether you choose White or Red as your 3rd color, the choice is usually justified by the availlability of Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Punishing Fire, and various sideboard options such as the Enlightened Tutor package and Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast. Cards like Academy Rector, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Broodmate Dragon, and Huntmaster of the Fells for instance are usually added perks.

With that being said, I think there are ways to fully take advantage of Explorer triggers within two colors. Cards like Dungrove Elder, and Garruk, Primal Hunter are fair examples.

[Malakai]

Here's my attempt at building a deck that can actually use Green Sun's Zenith well.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grave Titan
3 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon canopy
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

It's obviously very rough, and the mana is completely untested, but you get the idea. You now have a lot of cards that your opponent must deal with or lose. This list seems like it's going to be a lot better than all the lists crammed with miserable do-nothings. Adding in the knights required taking out the non-therapy discard, which hurt, but discard does not match up well against decks running Snapcaster.

Some people might lament the loss of maindeck life-gain. Yes, you're going to lose some percentage points against Burn. No, you don't really care because you have this thing called a sideboard. Plus, sometimes you'll just play swords and gain 9.

[TheArchitect]

Malakai and Queerios are both going in very different directions. The Johnny side of me wants the control/PW direction to be better, but tbh I am not sure which is. Even as much as I hate PW, they are incredible powerful combined with the core of this deck. However, I would still be interested in seeing how the more threat heavy style decks do.

I can also vouch for the BG version, I find the manabase incredibly stable. Against wasteland.dec I fetch for basics and with little to know consequence (it usually just means I cant hymn turn 2). Ive also been running Phyrexian arena in place of top and haven't really missed top. The card filtering is nice but I dont think I've lost a game where I've resolved an arena and untapped. With 2 colors, making double black is never an issue and top isn't as important since you won't need to use it to help land fix for you after you wastelanded (or just kept an iffy hand).

Sure stps and huntsmaster are awesome, but there is removal and creatures in B/G that work almost as well. I dont think they are worth it in their own. That said, I think the red or white splash will have a much easier matchup against UW control because of PF and rector shenanigans, so the splash may be worth it.

[hyperchord24]

Let's not forget that Sun Titan with a deed is game over for decks playing small creatures. That's the main reason why I splash white.

[Vandalize]

After playing a Standard tournament with my Solar Flare.dec, I've borrowed some thinking from a Wolf Run player I've faced in the swiss.

And it might work in a Nic Fit shell.

Primeval Titan and Kessig Wolf Run + Inkmoth Nexus. Making usually a 1~2 turn clock. And it flies.

Moreover, Kessig Wolf Run might give other threats a little reach. Because it can just tap for trample and no pump at all.

This might sound a little strange, in a legacy point of view, but it can work.

[Swing4Five]

Funny you would mention that, I have been brewing a Huntmaster / Punishing Fire list that also runs singletons of Wolf Run and Treetop Village to facilitate Primeval Titan being a GSZ-able multi-threat.

I started with just 2 GSZ, no Living Wish in the maindeck, as I wanted to have an actual sideboard; but when building said sideboard I realized I was including a few 1-2 of hateful creatures and lands anyhow, so I made a bit of a Wishboard, focusing on cards I would want to side in in some matches anyways, and made room for 2 Living Wish maindeck. The deck is not made to be reliant on either, but they allow for flexibility in in-game situations.

The purpose of this deck, is to stymie the opponents game plan in the very early turns, and then utilize the bonkers power-level high drops Wizards has been printing in the last 5 years to go completely go over the top of the usual low-cost cards of legacy. I feel Punishing Fire may be able to fit into both roles here, as early game removal and late game engine, and having red also lets me play with the new toy out of the box, Huntmaster of the Fells.

Anyways here is the list I am currently building to test, the numbers are definitely in flux, but I feel that this could be a good starting point for a flexible red version. Thanks to everyone else on the thread that has been brewing up new innovations that I may have borrowed.

Maindeck:
Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

Instants
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition
2 Innocent Blood
2 Living Wish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Basic Lands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Treetop Village
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Shriekmaw
1 Tabernacle
1 Bog
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Viridian Zealot
2 REB
2 Choke
1 Karakas
3 Mindbreak Trap

[Malakai]

I'm not saying you have to play white or anything. Honestly there's a valid case for playing blue. Two-color seems fine. What I am saying is that the GSZ lists with nothing worthwhile to GSZ for are not in any way optimal.

I can definitely see the case for a deck that is running Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, AND Sorin, but I have no idea what it'd look like.

Sun Titan, while awesome, often seems win-more, as you're already strong against the creature decks.

[Koby]

This is mostly from memory ~

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Elspeth K-E
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grave Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 GSZ
2 Sword to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
7 fetchlands
1 Phyrexian Tower

It's much easier to cast Sorin than it is to cast Elspeth; even still it might make sense to add a 2nd basic Plains for her and Sun Titan; otherwise we can cut her out completely and drop down to 1 Plains.

EDIT: I miscounted, now the list is 60 cards.

[groupcelebration]

It's much easier to cast Sorin than it is to cast Elspeth; even still it might make sense to add a 2nd basic Plains for her and Sun Titan; otherwise we can cut her out completely and drop down to 1 Plains.


What matchups do you feel Elspeth and Sorin are an upgrade over running Hymn or some 1 mana Discard spells, or even targeted removal?

And would improving those matchups make it worth opening yourself to wasteland against all the tempo decks and maverick? And trying to get WW on a splash color seems really greedy.

[groupcelebration]

I'm not saying you have to play white or anything. Honestly there's a valid case for playing blue. Two-color seems fine. What I am saying is that the GSZ lists with nothing worthwhile to GSZ for are not in any way optimal.

I can definitely see the case for a deck that is running Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, AND Sorin, but I have no idea what it'd look like.

Sun Titan, while awesome, often seems win-more, as you're already strong against the creature decks.

What lists don't have anything worthwhile to GSZ for? It seems pretty standard to run Dryad Arbor, Explorer, Thrun, Witness, Ooze, and something to kill an artifact. That alone gives you a ton of options against almost every deck.

What would we take out for blue cards? I feel like Cabal Therapy, Deed and Pulse are the reason to play the deck. Realistically how many slots do we have for another color... 6-8 maybe? Blue also makes you fetch a blue dual first (assuming the blue cards you decide to play are brainstorm, spell pierce, spell snare?), which immediately opens you up to wasteland.

If you're splashing white you don't have to worry about getting white mana until you actually need to cast a Swords to Plowshares. But at that point what are you Swords to Plowsharing that you couldn't already handle with Pulse, Deed, Dismember, or Go For the Throat?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The blue cards you want to play are Jace and Brainstorm and the random cards that have to be tested, like Simic Sky Swallower or Havengul Lich.

You cut down on removal, which is okay because you got a bouncer for your witness.

[groupcelebration]

I played a small event at a local store today with the following build

4 cabal therapy
3 hymn
1 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
2 innocent blood
4 green suns zenith

3 pernicious deed
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library

4 veteran explorer
2 scavenging ooze
2 dungrove elder
1 acidic slime
1 thrun
1 grave titan
1 shriekmaw
1 spike weaver

2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk primal hunter

4 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
2 polluted delta

6 forests
3 swamps
2 bayou
1 dryad arbor
1 phyrexian tower

I went 3-1. I won against Reanimator, UW Control, Painter Grindstone. Lost to High Tide.

The high tide match seems bad, since giving them 2 lands basically means you die. Game one was pretty funny when turn one on the play I therapy naming High Tide and hit, stuff ilke that happens in stores when the same people always play the same decks . It wasn't enough though and he ended up eventually going off before I could kill him. I got lucky in the second game and was able to extirpate his high tide on turn 2. This slowed the game down a lot, but I was blanking on threats. He was eventually able to go off on my turn without high tide, by resetting and turnabouting a bunch of times and getting his storm count up high enough anyway.I think I had a chance to win this, I was naming the wrong cards with cabal therapy. And I should have been more proactive at getting rid of his cunning wish. I learned a lot from playing this match, since I had never played against High Tide before.

Reanimator is rough pre-board. You're hoping to land a turn 2 ooze and pray it gets you there. It did for game one. I lost the second game to some play errors and his deck just being resilient. Game three I had leyline of the void and ooze. He had an echoing truth for the leyline, but ooze was brutal. He was searching hard but couldn't find show and tell.

Painter Grindstone seemed like a good matchup until he killed me on turn two the first game. Games two and three stalled for a long time because of pernicious deed. I was able to grind out game two and in game three I got there after drawing 7 cards off of Garruk Primal Hunter thanks to my very big ooze. Although pernicious deed was the only reason I was in that game either.

UW Control played out pretty weird. His hand for game one stalled on lands because of a hymn. He only had Island and 2 Maze of Iths for most of the game. The Mazes stalled me, but eventually I was able to find a GSZ for Dungrove elder to get there. Game three my opener had 2 Hymns and a Cabal Therapy. After a few turns he had nothing, but I didn't either so he hit me with Mishra Factory for a bit. Eventually I got a Garruk Primal Hunter but he answered with a Geist of Saint Traft, which he had to attack into Garruk to keep him from ultimating. I basically won both these games because I got crazy lucky with Hymns and almost every time I cast Cabal Therapy I hit multiple cards.

Random thoughts:

I think I've changed my mind on Garruk, Primal Hunter. Both times I was able to play him, he was able to totally turn the tide of the game. Drawing a lot of cards is good. I think I'm OK with 1 for now though.

I tried an Inquisition of Kozilek over the 4th Hymn. I liked it, but I'm still not sure about it. I had the 4th Hymn in the board and I sided it in a few times, but usually I didn't.

I'm torn on Sylvan Library. The card is incredible, but it doesn't play well with Pernicious Deed. I did have to destroy it a couple of times in games. But being able to pay 4 life to draw cards was relevant in two different matches. It should probably be a second top, but I might try it again next week.

My biggest problem with the current list is that often times I'd be in control of games, but unable to put pressure on. My list isn't optimal, I had ordered cards for this tournament but they didn't arrive yet. I don't really want the shriekmaw main, however I do want a few of them in the sideboard to deal with show and tell decks. I'd rather add a couple of more creatures (witness and scavenging ooze) and probably a third Liliana.

[Malakai]

My biggest problem with the current list is that often times I'd be in control of games, but unable to put pressure on.
This is what I mean when I say that the Green Sun's Zenith's don't do enough after turn 2.

[hyperchord24]

I see a lot of small/utility creatures that can be zenith'd for, but nothing all that big, save for deranged hermit. What can be run? Do you just take the fact that zenith is for the utility creatures and you wait to draw grave titan? Is it worth running primeval titan, gigapede or grave-shell scarab?

[Greenpoe]

I see a lot of small/utility creatures that can be zenith'd for, but nothing all that big, save for deranged hermit. What can be run? Do you just take the fact that zenith is for the utility creatures and you wait to draw grave titan? Is it worth running primeval titan, gigapede or grave-shell scarab?

Primeval Titan, Thrun, Spiritmonger, Fierce Empath...etc., at least one of these green guys should be run for lategame GSZ's. (Except Thrun does suck vs. a goyf/KoTR (unless you want to stall), but otherwise he's pretty cool.)

[CorpT]

Primeval Titan, Thrun, Spiritmonger, Fierce Empath...etc., at least one of these green guys should be run for lategame GSZ's. (Except Thrun does suck vs. a goyf/KoTR (unless you want to stall), but otherwise he's pretty cool.)

Don't forget about Mystic Enforcer.

[Qweerios]

In GB versions I have had success using Dungrove Elder as a pseudo KotR. Playing 4 Elders definitely justifies 4 GSZ because having access to 8 Hexproof growing beaters allows us to punch through a lot of things.

On unrelated news, I intend to participate in a large tournament Saturday and I have no idea what to expect. Any insight on my sideboard would be apreciated. Here is my list:


Creatures (13)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands (22)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks

[moseby]

Thrun is probably your best bet for GSZ, unfortunately, he is still not that huge. If you are still looking for a beef cake that you can drop does not die to random removal I would suggest plated slagwurm. but as it has been stated previously in the thread 7 mana, 8 if you are zenithing for him is a lot of mana and you are not always going to find that much even late game.

Maybe natural order is not a terrible idea, unfortunately eating 5 slots in an already tight decklist is tough. -2 grave titan, -1 deranged hermit, -1 liliana, ( i run 3), and -1 hymn. +4 NO, +1 Prog? I have not tired this out, but hitting 4 mana is way easier then 6.


On a side note what do you see as the optimal early games plays. From my experience vs anything but combo it is T1 explorer, T2 attack, therapy, flash back therapy, hymn, which is what makes this deck so good.

[Malakai]

By the time Dungrove Elder is relevant you could just as easily GSZ for a six drop.

[hyperchord24]

If you're thinking about Plated Slagwurm, there's also Gaea's Revenge and Kalonian Behemoth. Not to mention the sligtly smaller Gigapede and Kodama of the North Tree

[Malakai]

When you are building this deck, ask yourself the following question: Do you want to play your pet cards, or do you want to win?

[Swing4Five]

All of these cards are pretty terrible outside of Gigapede, and that's only for a very certain scenario: if a repeatable 6/1 can grind them out. And Thrun is going to be better in most of those situations at that. Primeval Titan + personlands/ maybe Wolf Run seems better in a majority of normal scenarios.


Edit: Also- What Malakai said.

[hyperchord24]

Those weren't pet cards. Someone suggested they needed something to put them over the top. Presumably Grave Titan and Thrun are already on that person's list. What else is there? White has Eternal Dragon. Black has the aforementioned Titan or hell, even Helldozer. Blue has morphling. What does green have? P Titan can be countered and targeted, plus needs extra non basic lands shoe-horned in to make him work.

[reev_]

Hi guys. I'm new with Nic Fit, but i'm testing it the last two weeks in hard mode.

1st at all: why no one list run no one Tarmogoyf? What's happening with our 4/5 1g?? I've past like 60% my games thinking like this: "Omg, if this Wild hunt was a goyf, this game was mine; Omg, if i've have some goyfs, this GSZ could bring the win." etc.

2nd: This is a GSZ deck with W. Why not KotR? then 23 lands with Canopy and 1-off Wasteland, for exemple (or Karakas, or Maze of ith).

3rd: In few victorys, i feel like: "im lucky with this 1-off winner Recurring Nightmare" or same for Grave titan. This lucky feeling happens with all of you?

Am I playing wrong?

Any tip is welcome.

[sap]

Hi guys. I'm new with Nic Fit, but i'm testing it the last two weeks in hard mode.

1st at all: why no one list run no one Tarmogoyf? What's happening with our 4/5 1g?? I've past like 60% my games thinking like this: "Omg, if this Wild hunt was a goyf, this game was mine; Omg, if i've have some goyfs, this GSZ could bring the win." etc.

2nd: This is a GSZ deck with W. Why not KotR? then 23 lands with Canopy and 1-off Wasteland, for exemple (or Karakas, or Maze of ith).

3rd: In few victorys, i feel like: "im lucky with this 1-off winner Recurring Nightmare" or same for Grave titan. This lucky feeling happens with all of you?

Am I playing wrong?

Any tip is welcome.
the way i play it this is a bomb deck, what other reason is there to ramp with veteran explorer?
i want to drop a planeswalker turn 2, and a a titan turn 3 and win, just bombs that do something the turn they come to play.

tarmogoyf doesnt do anything by itself, same for Knight of the Reliquary that take so long to setup and dont do anything when they come to play. with 4 mana (GSZ + KotR) i just rather eternal witness grabbing my swords to plowshares back for example.

as for the pet cards discussion, i've been running a single gigapede instead of deranged hermit and it has been nuts. but i also play 4 walkers and 3 titans, the gigapede for is just so i can do something with 6 mana and a GSZ in hand.

[Arianrhod]

I believe that the answer to the "what do you do with GSZ" question is Fierce Empath. I'll grant that it isn't necessarily KotR-levels of insanity, but Empath -> arbitrary 6-drop is a line of play that doesn't get enough recognition. If I'm not answering somebody's threat, I'm usually going for Empath as my go-to guy to build board presence and take over the game.

I'll be heading up to Jupiter's NELC tomorrow morning with a revised list. Considering that we're actually noteworthy enough to be in the DTB forum, I don't think that posting my list the night before is a good idea, but you can expect a report from me when I return. I will say right now that I have cut down to 2 GSZ and added a few more white creatures, since that's the debate that's currently raging. I also have some savage sideboard technology which I can't wait to spring on somebody.

///

@reev_:

1: Goyf isn't good in this deck. It's a board-control archetype, and Goyf falls right smack in the middle of Deed firing range -- to say nothing of versions that run Rector->Moat. Additionally, you'll almost always be on the losing side of a Goyf war with this deck. Their Goyfs will either be bigger from exalted or will be backed up by burn. Even beyond that, it gives a solid spell-snare target, which many versions are lacking otherwise at the moment. (Wish and Hymn being the outstanding exceptions).

2: KotR is something I've thought long and hard about, as it's one of my favorite cards. I'm not sure that this is really the archetype for him, for some of the same reasons as with Senor Goyf. However, I would be much more likely to run Knight than Goyf, due to its higher mana cost and tutoring/backup ramping ability. A few solid utility lands can really provide another avenue of attack for the deck, as it opens up manlands without needing Primeval Titan, Maze of Ith, Karakas, etc. I would say that the problem is space, but you built the list form the ground up you would either end up with something interesting, or a bastardized version of Maverick. Not sure which.

3: Yes. At the same time, try not to think of it as luck. Think of it as inevitability. If you happen to find your inevitability sooner rather than later, so much the better. But the singleton Nightmare, especially, isn't really to break the early-game, although it's certainly capable of it. It's there to do broken shit late game, at the point at which your opponent is out of gas. Then it just completely takes over. A lot of people don't like things like the miser's Nightmare, but I find it always reassuring to know that it's in my deck somewhere, waiting to annoy the hell out of my opponent. I have Rectors to grab it earlier if I need it, but also don't underestimate the amount of dig that the deck has. It can empty itself of lands very, very quickly if left unabated, and with Tops/Arenas/Skeletal it can draw/filter a ton of cards.

@Malakai and others: danger of cute things is public enemy number one with this deck. The nature of the explorer engine enables all kinds of stupidity, and allows people to feel like they can do anything. The trick is balancing Johnny and Spike. I'm not going to say that I do a very good job of this personally, although I will continue to defend things like Recurring Nightmare and Sun Titan as sitting astride the "too cute line" -- on the "spikey" side. Sun Titan especially CAN feel like win-more, but it can also get you out of some really, really hairy situations. And to the comment earlier (whoever posted it) that Sun Titan + Deed is win-more because you're already favored against aggro decks, I feel there's a difference between "win-more" and "win-enough/win-now". Titan demands an answer by aggro decks. If they can't present one immediately, they die. They don't have time to dig out, to find answers or to stabilize (or draw the fatal burn spell ala zoo). They just die. The ability to actually kill someone isn't win-more to me.

@Everyone suggesting Primeval + Manlands: have you guys played with basics so much now that you forget that Wasteland is a card, and one that isn't particularly effective against this deck in the first place? Why do you want to make yourselves more vulnerable to it? I feel like if you want manlands, you're going to need at least a singleton Loam somewhere, which is going to fundamentally shift the deck in a multitude of ways. Not necessarily terrible, but you can't just shoehorn a Primeval and a few manlands in and call it a day. That addition will require a rebuild from the ground up, IMO.

@Moseby: Slagwurm is wayyyyy too expensive for wayyyy too little. As far as optimal plays go, I think that the god-hand sequence is probably something like Land->Therapy, Explorer->flashback, Explorer->Tower->sac, some arbitrarily stupid 5-drop or under, then turn 3 6-drop. Depends on the matchup and the individual list, though.

@Qweerios: Do you have any idea of the meta at all? Surgical feels better than Extirpate to me if there's going to be combo or dredge running around, since it gives you a way to interact before even laying a land (Dredge esp. comes to mind here). The second Finks feels a little soft to me in the current meta-meta, but again, it might be right for where you're heading, hard to say. Your ET package looks solid, although I think I'd try to squeeze in a little more blue/combo hate...Choke, Chains, Eyes of the Wisent, or something similar. I think that if you absolutely HAD to open up two spots for some different hate, I would drop the Finks and the Nihil Bomb. I would probably suggest Bomb/Extirpates-> 3x Surgical and Finks -> blue hate. Maybe Cold-Eyed Selkie? It's been doing pretty good work for me.

[reev_]

Ty for reply Arianrhod. Can't wait to see your report tomorrow.
Good lucky.

[groupcelebration]

By the time Dungrove Elder is relevant you could just as easily GSZ for a six drop.

If you have enough mana to GSZ for a six drop, what green six drop is better than a 6/6 (if at some point you fetched a basic swamp) or 7/7 (if you didn't) creature with hexproof?

Not to mention you only have to spend 3-4 mana on him, which means you wouldn't have to tap out and could do other things.

[Malakai]

If you have enough mana to GSZ for a six drop, what green six drop is better than a 6/6 (if at some point you fetched a basic swamp) or 7/7 (if you didn't) creature with hexproof?

Not to mention you only have to spend 3-4 mana on him, which means you wouldn't have to tap out and could do other things.
It's not just about "what card is better." You have to consider all scenarios, rather than try living in magical christmas land. Knight of the Reliquary is a dominant card no matter when you cast them. Having an active KotR in play feels very much like having an active Dark Confidant in play. Dungrove Elder does stone nothing until you've manage to get a ridiculous amount of forests into play.

I'm not even saying KotR is the answer, and I think Dungrove Elder was worth looking at. The proper choice could very well be four-drops or what have you. What I am saying is that if you are already doing inherently more powerful things than your opponent, then what you want is consistency over just about anything else.

[Gix]

Okay! I notice some lists are not running Tarmogoyf, which I actually approve of but I want to hear opinions on this:

Is there any reason, apart form money, that you would NOT run goyf? Explain the advantage of excluding him from your list please.

Also... Dark Confidant?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Why Goyf sucks?

-Small
-Spell Snare
-Pernicious Deed

[sap]

Okay! I notice some lists are not running Tarmogoyf, which I actually approve of but I want to hear opinions on this:

Is there any reason, apart form money, that you would NOT run goyf? Explain the advantage of excluding him from your list please.

Also... Dark Confidant?
already been explained throughout the thread and even on this very page.
dark confidant is awsome but (for example in my list) with 3 6cc drops, 1 5cc drop and 6 4cc drops it just doesnt work. some people run phyrexian arena ive never tried it but it can be fetched with academy rector i guess, cant say if it works or not because i havent tried it.

tarmogoyf apart from every other reason (small, doesnt do anything by itself, can be spell pierced, provides no control) is it really worth paying 3 (GSZ + goyf) or even 4 (wish + goyf for those who run wish over GSZ) for it? i rather pay that 3 or 4 for a scavenging ooze since it provides a good tool (apart from actually being a counter to goyf by itself).

[Gheizen64]

Okay! I notice some lists are not running Tarmogoyf, which I actually approve of but I want to hear opinions on this:

Is there any reason, apart form money, that you would NOT run goyf? Explain the advantage of excluding him from your list please.

Also... Dark Confidant?

Actually i'm not running it because all the creature i run aren't affected by innocent blood. Being able to run 4 innocent blood and creatures that aren't affected by it is pretty good. I'm actually running 4 Explorer, 2 Broodmate and 4 Huntmaster of the fells + 4 Living Wish. All of those creatures works pretty nicely in combination with Innocent bloods and Pernicious Deeds (and Therapies obviously).

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

If you take a look at the average mana curve for Nic Fit decks, it should be pretty apparent why no one wants to run Dark Confidant in this deck. Phyrexian Arena, while not a threat, is a lot more stable. Goyf is just kind of meh for this deck. We're not fast enough to capitalize on his presence as a big aggro "hurfderp" guy in the early turns of the game. And anything that runs a decent burn and/or exalted creature package is going to destroy us in the Goyf-on-Goyf wars. That card has really lost some of its shine in the past year or so (and I'm glad it's getting less ubiquitous.)

EDIT (for more content): Been testing a GBw version with a 4 Wish/ 2 GSZ split, using a 3/3 split on Duress and IoK to supplement the Therapies and to use most of the slots that were freed by dropping some of the GSZ package. (I still have a maindeck "gamewinning threat package" of 1 Thrun, 1 Batterskull, and 1 Garruk Primal Hunter, plus some bomby wish targets.) One thing I've noticed that's nice to have more combo hate, between 10 maindeck discard spells, being able to wish for Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, or Thalia, and having 2 Lilianas in the board (although perhaps she belongs in the main and Duress belongs in the side.) I feel like white brings some pretty strong silver-bullet wish targets, such as these guys and Kataki, and Karakas. Also, Massacre Wurm is a pretty good Wish target vs. Maverick. ^^ I'm pretty sure I like him better than Caldera Hellion for the "Damnation on a stick" spot. Although I could maybe see some arguments for Sheoldred, Whispering One as a Wish target also, and they're probably to similar to use together. Hmm... much as Sheoldred is a pet card of mine, she probably gets sent farming way too often without providing any value to justify spending 7 mana (plus a Wish) on that bitch. Although she's basically like an Abyss, + a Recurring Nightmare with no sac cost, + a decent body. *Sigh.* //Rant

On a random note, I'm wondering if anyone sees Darkblast as potentially strong enough for sideboard or maindeck inclusion. There are a lot of x/1s in the meta these days, it seems to me, between Delvers, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidants, Snapcasters, etc, etc. And you can always cast it during your upkeep, dredge it back, and recast it to kill an x/2. (Also I got really annoyed at my Maverick opponent's Sylvan Safekeeper in a few games-- lol.)

Also, I'm interested to hear some feedback and play experiences from those of y'all testing Knight of the Reliquary in a 4 GSZ shell. I'd like to see where a little more "midrange aggro" approach would take this deck.

Also, Garruk Primal Hunter is a house, and I'm pretty strongly considering bumping him up to 2 copies.

[Stoyrm]

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Birds of Paradis
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Broodmate Dragon

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize

4 Punishing Fire

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountains
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Innocent Blood
1 Open spot, maybe a life gain card?

So after a bit of testing against; U/W Stoneforge, UWR DelverStoneforge, Storm and Counterbalance. Garruk Relentless wasn't very good, and not being able to tutor for him was pretty bad. I'm aware that Garruk Relentless might not be the best against Storm and CB. However Huntmaster of the Fells was great all day, so much value. I have not been able to test Master of the Wild Hunt, but so far it hasn't been to good. I'll have to test a bit more against elves. My meta is now; Merfolk, Counterbalance, Storm, Merfolk, Maverick, Deadguy Ale, Zoo, High Tide, Elves, U/R Delver, Mono-Red and Pox. I'm assuming Master of the Wild Hunt should be fine against elves, but doesn't seem like it should be good against much of anything else. Not sure what to add in though :).

[CorpT]

So has anyone been doing well against combo? I spent several hours losing to Storm and Sneak and Show. We tried all sorts of things and couldn't find anything that could reliably beat them. Is anyone having any luck and what sideboard options work?

[Arianrhod]

Storm isn't too bad, Sneak/Show is damn near unwinnable. I regard it as something of the deck's achilles heel and proceed to ignore it.

I went 3-3 today at Jupiter's NELC due to strange matchups and my deck randomly mana screwing me two rounds in a row. However, when my deck felt like playing magic, it crushed mercilessly -- beating Stoneblade, Bant Blade, and Burn, while losing to Metalworker with basics (what an atrocious matchup that was!), Fish, and U/R Painter. The latter of these is where I got screwed -- fish had Force, Daze, double lord, and triple wasteland, then game two I mulled to 5 to find a land, found a basic plains, and then nothing else. Pretty similar story with Painter -- I died turn two or three to Painter, and then had mana issues again g2 after mulling.

Still happy with the deck's performance. Secret tech was a pair of Baneslayers and a pair of Tsunamis in the sb. Full report tomorrow sometime.

[CorpT]

How are you beating Storm? Was it UB Storm, or Burning Wish TES? What cards were you using to stop them and what cards were you using to actually kill them?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

How are you beating Storm? Was it UB Storm, or Burning Wish TES? What cards were you using to stop them and what cards were you using to actually kill them?

My post on the bottom of the last page has some pretty good notes on things that are good against combo: reduce your GSZ package, use Living Wish for Thalia, Canonist, and/or Gaddock Teeg, and run more discard in the main deck. Also, reading the thread is fundamental. :tongue:

[groupcelebration]

It's not just about "what card is better." You have to consider all scenarios, rather than try living in magical christmas land.

I'm not talking about magical christmas land, it's possible I didn't make my point clearly.

If you GSZ for Knight. He can't do anything until the next turn. If you decide to make use of his ability, then you can't attack with him right away. So he might not actually do anything for you until two turns after you played him, if you decide to keep him back to block and then go get a fetch land or wasteland with his ability.

So I think you've overstated Knight's immediate affect on the board. His control of certain matchups through his ability to fetch a couple of one-off lands or wasteland, is something that really requires him to be around for at least a couple of turns. At which point he can take over games against some decks. Although he also dies to a lot of removal and can be shrunk with graveyard hate. And he also forces you to turn your manabase into garbage. So there's certainly a downside to running him.

When I play with Dungrove, all I have to do is hit land drops and kill my explorers and he gets bigger. I don't have to deviate from my normal game plan just to make him better. It's possible the deck should change more to make better use of him. I'm not sure yet...While he can't fetch a wasteland, he also can't easily die. Which makes him awesome against blue decks. (This only really matters because I'm a zoo player and I want my revenge against all those UW decks I've lost to)

I will agree it's possible that there is a better creature than either of these though.

In almost any situation if I didn't already have an Ooze on the table, I'd probably GSZ for an Ooze before I'd go for Elder or Knight.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, I'm about to collapse so if this doesn't quite make full sense, I apologize.

For beating combo: consider your deck. It isn't an attrition deck anymore. It isn't a rock deck, a control deck, or a combo deck (if it ever was). It's a prison deck now. Your sole goal is to stop them from winning, to literally shut down the ways they can win the game, to the point at which any random asshole in your deck becomes a wincon. I personally achieve this through lockpiece enchantments to supplement my Rector package, along with Surgical Extractions and Memoricide/Cranial Extraction. The only thing you need to worry about vs combo of any generic type is its speed. If ANT or TES turn ones you, or even turn two without a Therapy, then there isn't anything you can do. But if they don't have the stone nuts, you can easily lock them out of the game.

Against either ANT or TES, first Cabal names LED. If you hit one and you Surgical that, it hurts them bad.

Against ANT, Cranial/Mem naming Tendrils. Most decks don't have a backup wincon, so you literally win on the spot.

Against TES, try to disrupt their tutors as much as you can. LED is the most important, but don't miss an opportunity to Surgical Infernal or Burning.

Against High Tide, hit their cantrips ASAP. Screw High Tide itself, because most of the time they board one or two out so that they can Wish for them because they're scared of surgical/extirpate. If you take away any ONE of their cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain), it becomes hard for them to win. If you take TWO, it's almost impossible with any kind of backup lock pieces or respectable clock. Merchant Scroll and Turnabout can also make their life miserable.

Against all of these decks, be canny with your Surgicals. Don't bother trying to go for Brainstorm -- you want them to Brainstorm in response to Therapy to hide things. Then you Surgical something, forcing a deck shuffle and essentially hymning them.

If you just have Cranial/Mem/Surgicals, then you'll at least have some game vs combo. But if you also supplement that with respectable enchantments that do things vs other matchups while still coming in vs combo, you'll be fine. I usually end up boarding in really marginal things vs combo decks because a lot of the maindeck is just dead in the combo matchup...removal, deeds, etc. Like I usually end up boarding in Cold-Eyed Selkie vs a combo deck, just for additional draw to try to find more hate. It isn't really good for the matchup, and it definitely isn't what it's meant for/in my board for, but it's good splash hate. Be inventive.

I'm going to shut up now and go to bed. Hope that helps. Just remember: think prison before playing the deck like any other archetype vs combo. Your job isn't to win, it's to stop them from winning.

[CorpT]

Alright, I'm about to collapse so if this doesn't quite make full sense, I apologize.


This seems like much better advice than "Living Wish for Thalia and read the thread."

Thanks. Appreciate it. I'll try this out tomorrow.

[Tao]

Sneak and Tell and SnT Hive Mind are not good matchups but you can get to 35-40%. If you play with Living Wish you can get Karakas in G1 and that way beat SnT. SA is almost impossible to beat though.

If I don't play with Living Wish I always have 3 Diabolic Edict in my SB. Sometimes only 2 but I think 3 is just the right number. It is very good against Reanimator, SnT and still relatively quick for the Delver matchup. That plus addional Discard and Surgical Extractions (good vs. Intuition) combined with their reliance on drawing the right combination of cards will win a good number of games.

Reanimtor and SnT are also the reason why I would never touch a card like Canonist or Mindbreak Trap as my combo hate. It would suck way too much to look at your SB and find that your anti combo card does absolutely nothing against the combo deck you are paired against. I prefer Duress (better than Thoughtseize because it also covers Burn), Surgical Extraction and Red Elemental Blast (REB does nothing against Belcher but it kills Delvers and Merfolks).

[Tao]

On a side note Batterskull is a hell of a card atm as a win con and it fits the deck's strategy pretty well. I think playing two of them would be good for basically any version.