[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Arianrhod]

Yes, the idea has to be explored.
Few cards that might be interesting (I forgot about crack the earth...):
- Rapid hybridization (another way to get rid of veteran/annoying crit)
- Cryptic command/Remand
- Vexing Susher (if you want your scape uncounterable)
- Pyroclasm / Devastation tide (the new deed ?)
- Cunning wish/Living wish/burning wish -> which one is the best ?
- FOW (if your blue count reaches 20 cards ?)

Devastation Tide is likely better than Repeal as a "deed replacement." I still wouldn't mind having a 2-of Repeal in the deck, though.

Rapid Hybrid is reasonable I guess? Not sure I like giving them a 3/3, but it's strong when used on our Explorers.

Cryptic is fine but color intensive -- Remand is strictly a Modern toy imo. I would rather run Counterspell or Voidslime.

Shusher is not something I generally consider playable because decks will have removal vs us anyway. Boseiju is stronger, but needs tutored. I guess Brainstorms would help dig for it though.

Burning Wish is still definitely best because it gets Scapeshift imo.

[Elfkid]

@honeyT: what about bonfire? I think it's good, and we ramp a lot and we have the sdt too to use it via instant
@mr miagi: thanks for the answer there are two sweet decklists, and thanks for the advice about play fast the deck ^^

@all: what about reclamation sage? We don't need the white to use qasali or harmonic and we can recycle it with volrath and cabal therapy and it's gsz targeteable

And what about recurring nightmare and the squirrel master?

Regards and thanks for all the answers^^

[Ralf]

Devastation Tide is likely better than Repeal as a "deed replacement." I still wouldn't mind having a 2-of Repeal in the deck, though.

Rapid Hybrid is reasonable I guess? Not sure I like giving them a 3/3, but it's strong when used on our Explorers.

Cryptic is fine but color intensive -- Remand is strictly a Modern toy imo. I would rather run Counterspell or Voidslime.

Shusher is not something I generally consider playable because decks will have removal vs us anyway. Boseiju is stronger, but needs tutored. I guess Brainstorms would help dig for it though.

Burning Wish is still definitely best because it gets Scapeshift imo.

-A couple of crop rotation with a very limited tutor package ? => phyrexian tower, Boseiju, karakas, bojuka etc...

-Gszing for Susher still gets you "priority" and you do cast "scape" before they get to kill him (well, you need at least 8 lands but it is doable)

- Remand should not be overlooked. You can remand your own scape which could lead to some huge blowouts (ahahah this reminds me when I played Solidarity remanding my own high tide)

[Ralf]

@honeyT: what about bonfire? I think it's good, and we ramp a lot and we have the sdt too to use it via instant
@mr miagi: thanks for the answer there are two sweet decklists, and thanks for the advice about play fast the deck ^^

@all: what about reclamation sage? We don't need the white to use qasali or harmonic and we can recycle it with volrath and cabal therapy and it's gsz targeteable

And what about recurring nightmare and the squirrel master?

Regards and thanks for all the answers^^

If I may:

1) Bonfire is a good card. But we can't get rid of it (put it back on top of your library) when it is in your hand.
2) Reclamation sage is in between MD & SB in my punishing list. An all-star against a resolved batterskull/equipment. It can take the "pulse" slot in HoneyT's list, I guess.
3) Recurring nightmare -> I am really reluctant to overcommit the deck into a grave engine, as in most cases, you will likely face a lot of gravehate just because of punishing fire... It is a good card anyway.

[Nithkar]

Hey, everybody, it's been a long time since i last posted here.

Arianrhod, I've been willing to ask this for some time now: is Crack the Earth really a reliable substitute for cabal therapy? Won't it put Nic Fit in a terrible pinch if it gets countered? I mean, how was it on testing?

Another question i have (to everybody this time) is about Courser of Kruphrix. I play punishing Nic Fit and i wanted to be sure before getting the card: is it really worth the slot? I mean, i recognize how great the card is, providing time and a semi reliable card advantage. And i realize 4 toughness isn't something to be ignored. But on my breath experience with the deck i get the feeling that each and every creature on the list has to be a composing tool of the box GSZ provide, and i can't think of a situation that i'd use one GSZ to fetch Courser of Kruphix (unlike each other creature on the list). Is it really worth it as a one of? In what situation should i zenith for it?

That asked, wouldn't Courser of Kruphix fit nicely on Scapewish as to get rid of topdeck lands whilst gaining life from the constant landrops the deck makes?

[edit: English correction]

[jbone2016]

Ari, any thought to over masters vs the blue deck?

[Ralf]

Ari, any thought to over masters vs the blue deck?

There is also bound//determined (although in UG).

Anyway, I guess it is not a good idea.
If you are to cast scape with a BW in hand (which I presume from your question as overmaster would a 1-of in your SB), I'd go -> BW = therapy/thoughtseize and take the FOW...

Overmaster would only be good only if your opponent has 2 hard counters (Counterspell + FOW + another card to pitch to it) and if your opponent lets you resolve BW (mistake).
There are a lot of "if", not to mention that you have to dedicate a SB slot for overmaster...

[MrShine]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Crack the Earth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

SB:
3
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1
1 Scapeshift
1
1 Life's Legacy
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm

This is my initial sketch. Note that this is mostly just taking my Scapewish list and shifting black to blue. Some of the changes are easy, like moving Therapy -> Crack the Earth. Others, like trying to replace Pernicious Deed, are not so easy.

We also need a way to fight counterspells better because we can't Therapy->Shift. Maybe maindeck the Glens?

Also, the sideboard / wishboard will need to be completely redone basically. We also don't have Innocent Blood anymore for the easy Wish->sacoutlet. I think there has to be something better than Life's Legacy, but maybe not. Maybe just cantripping while saccing an Explorer is good enough for 1R+1G?

Still, the idea needs explored for sure. Gaining Brainstorm would be MASSIVE in a deck like this.

Thoughts from someone who has played Scapeshift in Modern for a while...

@ Replacing Deed - remember Engineered Explosives! The non-B almost-functional-alternate-deed. Its pretty much good enough to be running maindeck in control decks in Legacy anyway; it is insanely flexible (as we know).

Although I don't like the double R, Volcanic Fallout is also an option for the Delver / Tempo MU (and as a reliable way to remove Explorer). Still, 3cmc is rough.

Repeal is definitely not good enough. There have got to be better options out there. I would prefer just running Lightning Bolt, at the least.

And given the critical importance of Glen Elendra in BUG lists, I would say you'd be foolish not to maindeck it here.

[Arianrhod]

Here's where I'm at on Rector:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
3 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Reclamation Sage
sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 1 Toxic Deluge
sb: 1 Abrupt Decay
sb: 1 Swords to Plowshares
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Moat

[HoneyT]

@honeyT: what about bonfire? I think it's good, and we ramp a lot and we have the sdt too to use it via instant
@mr miagi: thanks for the answer there are two sweet decklists, and thanks for the advice about play fast the deck ^^

@all: what about reclamation sage? We don't need the white to use qasali or harmonic and we can recycle it with volrath and cabal therapy and it's gsz targeteable

And what about recurring nightmare and the squirrel master?

Regards and thanks for all the answers^^

Bonfire is awful. It solves no problems the deck has and just creates bad opening hands. Between Pfires, Decays, Deeds, Pulse, and Liliana there is already sufficient removal in the deck without adding a clunky sweeper.

Reclamation Sage is also not what the Punishing Fire version wants or needs to be doing. If there's an abundance of MUD in you meta then go nuts, otherwise I'd stay away.

Recurring Nightmare in this deck is a non-tutorable enchantment that does nothing on its own and increases your vulnerability to graveyard hate unnecessarily. That's also why I play Kessig Wolf Run as opposed to Volrath's Stronghold. They do the same job of winning the game. Wolf Run simply does it faster and more efficiently without being further exposed to graveyard hate. In short, stay away from Recurring Nightmare outside of Rector lists.

Lastly, cards have been printed since Urza's Legacy. Sadly Deranged Hermit is simply outclassed nowadays by any other threat.




Another question i have (to everybody this time) is about Courser of Kruphrix. I play punishing Nic Fit and i wanted to be sure before getting the card: is it really worth the slot? I mean, i recognize how great the card is, providing time and a semi reliable card advantage. And i realize 4 toughness isn't something to be ignored. But on my breath experience with the deck i get the feeling that each and every creature on the list has to be a composing tool of the box GSZ provide, and i can't think of a situation that i'd use one GSZ to fetch Courser of Kruphix (unlike each other creature on the list). Is it really worth it as a one of? In what situation should i zenith for it?


I was testing Courser of Kruphix for awhile in the Punishing Fire version. It had it's moments of being very good, but ultimately is unnecessary and not worth the slot. It was a fine card to draw naturally most of the time, but there was never a time when I actively wanted to Zenith for it over any other card.


Here's where I'm at on Rector:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
3 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Reclamation Sage
sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 1 Toxic Deluge
sb: 1 Abrupt Decay
sb: 1 Swords to Plowshares
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Moat

I like most of the list, but I think you're getting a little too cute with Scuttling Doom Engine. I can't really think of a scenario when it's better than just having Kokusho.

[Qweerios]

I don't mean to shit all over your creativity but Crack the Earth and Pongify are both awful. If anything, Perilous Research or Pyroclasm is where you want to be.

Also, for a RUG shift list using Perilous Research you might want to look into Coiling Oracle.

[Ralf]

I don't mean to shit all over your creativity but Crack the Earth and Pongify are both awful. If anything, Perilous Research or Pyroclasm is where you want to be.

Also, for a RUG shift list using Perilous Research you might want to look into Coiling Oracle.

Thanks for the tips.

Here is where I am right now.

1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [UNH] Island
2 [GTC] Stomping Ground
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 [UNH] Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Taiga

1 [CMD] Eternal Witness
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer

3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

3 [] Negate
4 [] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [GTC] Rapid Hybridization

2 [MOR] Scapeshift
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [AVR] Devastation Tide

SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned

I'm taking any ideas.

[Elfkid]

@ honeyT: I'm interested why you choose the titan+kessig package over the stronghold value, can you explain me why?

And what about the bane of progress for a sideboard card?

[Arianrhod]

I like most of the list, but I think you're getting a little too cute with Scuttling Doom Engine. I can't really think of a scenario when it's better than just having Kokusho.

Scuttles:

-) 6/6 is bigger than average Goyf (5/6)
-) Can't be chumpblocked by dorks (DRS, Stoneforge, unflipped Delvers)
-) Nugs for 6 on the way out
-) Deals damage on its way out, which can be redirected to essentially vindicate any planeswalker
-) Colorless -- doesn't lose to Sword of X/Y, easy to cast
-) You get to go "TOOT" every time you play it (http://imgur.com/yrdtf)

-) Doesn't fly
-) Swords to Plowshares makes it sad
-) I can't think of any other drawbacks

Kokopuffs:

-) Has flying
-) Drains for 5 -- 10 point lifeswing
-) Doesn't target, so can't be stopped by Leyline of Sanctity (fringe)

-) Is double black, which is historically rough for tricolor Nic Fits -- especially if you want to Nightmare or Therapy it on the same turn an
-) Can't hit planeswalkers with his trigger
-) Can be bounced by Karakas (this can be an advantage in some circumstances, but in my experience is usually a downside)
-) Swords to Plowshares makes it sad

Summary: While the lifeswing on Kokusho is 'better', being able to essentially destroy target planeswalker I think gives the edge to Scuttles. There's a few very minor advantages and drawbacks to each, but that's the big one, along with the fact that Scuttles can't be Karakas'd.

[HoneyT]

@ honeyT: I'm interested why you choose the titan+kessig package over the stronghold value, can you explain me why?

And what about the bane of progress for a sideboard card?

I explained in my previous post why I play Wolf Run over Stronghold. And Bane of Progress is completely unnecessary unless your meta is filled with MUD and Enchantress. If so, go nuts I guess.


Scuttles:

-) 6/6 is bigger than average Goyf (5/6)
-) Can't be chumpblocked by dorks (DRS, Stoneforge, unflipped Delvers)
-) Nugs for 6 on the way out
-) Deals damage on its way out, which can be redirected to essentially vindicate any planeswalker
-) Colorless -- doesn't lose to Sword of X/Y, easy to cast
-) You get to go "TOOT" every time you play it (http://imgur.com/yrdtf)

-) Doesn't fly
-) Swords to Plowshares makes it sad
-) I can't think of any other drawbacks

Kokopuffs:

-) Has flying
-) Drains for 5 -- 10 point lifeswing
-) Doesn't target, so can't be stopped by Leyline of Sanctity (fringe)

-) Is double black, which is historically rough for tricolor Nic Fits -- especially if you want to Nightmare or Therapy it on the same turn an
-) Can't hit planeswalkers with his trigger
-) Can be bounced by Karakas (this can be an advantage in some circumstances, but in my experience is usually a downside)
-) Swords to Plowshares makes it sad

Summary: While the lifeswing on Kokusho is 'better', being able to essentially destroy target planeswalker I think gives the edge to Scuttles. There's a few very minor advantages and drawbacks to each, but that's the big one, along with the fact that Scuttles can't be Karakas'd.

Fair points. I still think I like Kokusho better as the evasive finisher that goes nuts with Nightmare, but your reasonings are thought out and legit. At that stage in the late game I don't think mana is typically an issue and I don't think nugging planeswalkers is particularly relevant when you're playing Vindicate and Council's Judgement. Flying is still the better form of evasion (not being blocked by TNN is a thing) and Kokopuffs is obviously better with Nightmare. That being said, I won't fault you for either choice. The Karakas and "TOOT" points being the most relevant arguments as far as I'm concerned as TOOTING is a big game.

[Ralf]

Here's where I'm at on Rector:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
3 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Reclamation Sage
sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 1 Toxic Deluge
sb: 1 Abrupt Decay
sb: 1 Swords to Plowshares
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Moat

I could also see running a "Fauna Shaman"

[heat_wave]

Hi folks,

I'm going to attend a local legacy tourney, piloting Punishing Nic Fit, and I need a piece of advice from more experienced players.
The meta is quite diverse, I can meet Goblins, BUG, Jund Loam, combo and many other decks. I'm not afraid of facing combo: I've got enough discard, REBs out of sideboard and other tools. It's Junk matchup that gives me chills. I can shoot most of their creatures down, but I've got the most losses from Marit Lage. KotR might come after I've used most of my removal or the Punishing Fires are just not enough to kill it. Then it assembles the combo which I just can't disrupt, and even if I have 21+ life, the threat is just inevitable.
I've found both Emrakul and Marit Lage hard to deal with, but Emrakul comes from combo decks mostly, and Junk has enough meat on board to make my Lilianas useless, or cracks a fetchland for a Dryad Arbor.
Ensnaring Bridge might help games 2 and 3, it's ok against Show and Tell variants based on my experience, but are there any other answers in Jund colours?


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[Arianrhod]

Hi folks,

I'm going to attend a local legacy tourney, piloting Punishing Nic Fit, and I need a piece of advice from more experienced players.
The meta is quite diverse, I can meet Goblins, BUG, Jund Loam, combo and many other decks. I'm not afraid of facing combo: I've got enough discard, REBs out of sideboard and other tools. It's Junk matchup that gives me chills. I can shoot most of their creatures down, but I've got the most losses from Marit Lage. KotR might come after I've used most of my removal or the Punishing Fires are just not enough to kill it. Then it assembles the combo which I just can't disrupt, and even if I have 21+ life, the threat is just inevitable.
I've found both Emrakul and Marit Lage hard to deal with, but Emrakul comes from combo decks mostly, and Junk has enough meat on board to make my Lilianas useless, or cracks a fetchland for a Dryad Arbor.
Ensnaring Bridge might help games 2 and 3, it's ok against Show and Tell variants based on my experience, but are there any other answers in Jund colours?


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About all you can really do is run some kind of bounce or exile removal, neither of which really existed in jund. You -can- still run Karakas, it's just awkward in jund colors.

Uh...you could try some sort of exile target land removal, like Sowing Salt -- it would just be rough for them to actually extend into it, and SS is a sorcery (as is most land destruction), so it'll be hard for you to resolve it even if they offer the target for you. Diabolic Edict will likely help -- you'll just have to try to keep the board as clear as you possibly can.

[heat_wave]

About all you can really do is run some kind of bounce or exile removal, neither of which really existed in jund. You -can- still run Karakas, it's just awkward in jund colors.

Uh...you could try some sort of exile target land removal, like Sowing Salt -- it would just be rough for them to actually extend into it, and SS is a sorcery (as is most land destruction), so it'll be hard for you to resolve it even if they offer the target for you. Diabolic Edict will likely help -- you'll just have to try to keep the board as clear as you possibly can.

Yeah, LD just seems too slow and narrow; there was a black spell in Theros block which exiled 1 or more creatures, but it costs 4 mana and only helps vs Marit Lage. Karakas is a good answer which helps against both, I had it in my mind, but yeah, having it in Jund is awkward. IIRC, I also have 2 Pithing Needles in my SB, so I might try to use those aggressively against KotR/Hexmage/lands.

Well, thanks for the ideas. I'll do my best tomorrow, maybe even post results.


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[Arianrhod]

Yeah, LD just seems too slow and narrow; there was a black spell in Theros block which exiled 1 or more creatures, but it costs 4 mana and only helps vs Marit Lage. Karakas is a good answer which helps against both, I had it in my mind, but yeah, having it in Jund is awkward. IIRC, I also have 2 Pithing Needles in my SB, so I might try to use those aggressively against KotR/Hexmage/lands.

Well, thanks for the ideas. I'll do my best tomorrow, maybe even post results.


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Slaughter Games usually wraps up Sneak and Show in a nice, neat little bow. I would be much less worried about that matchup and much more worried about Merit Lage, especially since whatever answers you can run can also be Decayed (Pithing Needle, Bridge, etc).

What about some kind of threaten effect? Act of Treason etc? I mean you'd have to tank a hit which is kind of awkward (or force him to make the Merit during your mainphase 1 somehow), but it would certainly work.

Alternatively, you could do something very unexpected and Blood Moon them. You probably sideboard out your Explorers if you're going to run that plan out of the board, but it would answer any and all Merit Lage related problems. The funny thing about Blood Moon in Nic Fit is that your opponents never fetch basics because they know we don't play Wasteland and they want value out of our Explorers -- and we fetch basics anyway because we don't want to get Wasted out, so we could both catch them with their pants down -and- act like everything is normal while setting up the Moon.

Just a thought.

[heat_wave]

Slaughter Games usually wraps up Sneak and Show in a nice, neat little bow. I would be much less worried about that matchup and much more worried about Merit Lage, especially since whatever answers you can run can also be Decayed (Pithing Needle, Bridge, etc).

What about some kind of threaten effect? Act of Treason etc? I mean you'd have to tank a hit which is kind of awkward (or force him to make the Merit during your mainphase 1 somehow), but it would certainly work.

Alternatively, you could do something very unexpected and Blood Moon them. You probably sideboard out your Explorers if you're going to run that plan out of the board, but it would answer any and all Merit Lage related problems. The funny thing about Blood Moon in Nic Fit is that your opponents never fetch basics because they know we don't play Wasteland and they want value out of our Explorers -- and we fetch basics anyway because we don't want to get Wasted out, so we could both catch them with their pants down -and- act like everything is normal while setting up the Moon.

Just a thought.

Threaten is fine, plus they probably won't have other fliers to block. I'm usually sitting at a comfortable 22-25 life when Marit Lage comes, so taking a hit is possible. I really like the Blood Moon route, though. We have good and diverse threats, so I should just play it as usual after landing Moon, right? Or is there any difference?

I've also just recalled Sarkhan the Mad. I tested him on Cockatrice earlier, and he provides CA with Top while also solving the unkillable monster problem.


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[Tom4ik]

I have been running 2 blood moons in my SB for about 6 months now and I love it. Lands type decks can be a big problem and blood moon either buys tons of time or in some cases keep them locked out. I rarely bring it in against delver type decks but reserve it as a card for shardless bug type mana bases that play a slow control game or against the marit lage decks. My Sb the last few tournements has been 2 blood moon, 2 surgical, 3 reb, 2 golgari charm, 1 chains of meph, 2 slaughter games, 1 abrubt decay, 2 duress.

[tescrin]

If looking at Doom Engine, can't we compare to Grave Titan and hand it to him?
-Still bigger than goyf, and basically unblockable against S&T. Kills anything in Legacy that isn't TNN
-More permanents makes him nigh-unkillable for walkers and help with S&T
-His chumps and attacking chumps help get through the garbage they could block with

Scuttling Doom Engine seems best as a free-attack "GOTCHA!" with a sac outlet for 12, but again, you could've just attacked for 10 with Titan in Magical Christmas Land and Titan can attack through a Nimble Mongoose or Delver. Swords doesn't make titan quite as sad.

EDIT:
I should note that getting around TNN and such by simply swarming is a nice advantage compared to just not getting chumped by Souls. Souls stops *maybe* one Titan attack but TNN is nothing. TNN still chumps Doomy-doomson all day.

[Elfkid]

Today I found this sweet but probably not totally nic fit decklist: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/241734#online

What do you think about it guys? I dont know why is not running Karakas, but the Stoneforge Package is swweeet :P

Regards! ^^

[Firepaw3]

Went 6-3 at eternal extravaganza today with scapewish
2-1 Junk
2-0 merfolk
2-0 U/W stoneblade
1-2 Miracles (Garrett Fehon)
2-1 Shardless bant thopter foundry
2-1 UR delver (Brett Schmuckler)
1-2 Burn
2-0 Shardless BUG
1-2 BUG Pod Fit (Zackery Shulz)

Always nice to see a fellow nic fit player, unfortunate we had to play
I used the same 75 from Baltimore

[Barook]

The following Junk list did pretty well, 4-0 two times in the last few days in MODO daily events:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/241795#online

Since I owned already a good chunk of the cards, I bought the rest and made the following changes:

-4 Misty Rainforest (probably a budget choice for that player)
+4 Windswept Heath

Any tips for a Nic Fit newbie? I want to use it in some daily events after getting some practice.

Edit: Didn't saw Elfkid was talking about the same list. How about replacing one Plains with a Karakas?

[Elfkid]

Edit: Didn't saw Elfkid was talking about the same list. How about replacing one Plains with a Karakas?


I think Karakas is necesary now, but the problem is that we can´t search it vs show and tell matchups

Speaking about Nic Fit variants I was very interested in the Punishing Fire version, but probably I will try the BUG or the Junk, but the Scapewishfit is very interesant too.

(In MODO Karakas is so cheap, so I think the guy prefer not play it)

[Barook]

One thing I already feared and which also reared its ugly head against Miracles is the inability of the build to deal with Planeswalkers in its current form.

I think Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate is necessary.

[Elfkid]

One thing I already feared and which also reared its ugly head against Miracles is the inability of the build to deal with Planeswalkers in its current form.

I think Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate is necessary.

Probably Maelstrom Pulse is more polivalent, vs empty, lingerings and more than 1 tarmogoyf/ fattie

I like the stonefroge package, and the deathrite shaman is good, but not trhun? I think thrun is so good now, probably better than courser...

@HoneyT: I will finish to buy your decklist and I will play it in a few weeks on a 30+ Player tournament, if u have time, can u explain how to sideboard vs diferent matchups? there are thing that are logic, but others... haha

Regards!!:laugh:

[Barook]

Now I just said "Fuck it" and bought the missing parts of Punishing Nic Fit as well. I'll give this list a spin:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast

I don't have Lilianas nor can I afford them right now, so I'm sticking with Edicts for now. What's the reasoning for Carpet of Flowers over Choke in the board? And against what is Extraction normally used?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I don't have Lilianas nor can I afford them right now, so I'm sticking with Edicts for now. What's the reasoning for Carpet of Flowers over Choke in the board? And against what is Extraction normally used?Carpet of flowers comes in whenever veteran explorer ramping is dangerous. Miracles and High-Tide are the matchups I've used it most often for but I will also bring in 1-2 against delver decks because it makes it even harder for them to mess with your mana development. I've also successfully used it for quick slaughter games in the omnishow matchup which was otherwise miserable.

I think you could get away with choke if you prefer that though. CoF is always great when it's in play but it does take up a large chunk of the board for an effect that doesn't directly interact with what the opponent is doing.

Beware if you are talking about playing punishing nic-fit online too. Grove of the burnwillows is currently NOT triggering punishing fire on magic online and it's been that way for about a week.

Extraction comes in against just about all combo/graveyard decks. Versus combo you are looking to rip apart their hand with therapy and then take an important piece. Nothing tricky going on there.

[Barook]

Grove of the burnwillows is currently NOT triggering punishing fire on magic online and it's been that way for about a week.
Thanks for reminding me. But I can't play it right now anyway since I'll have to wait for Bahra to come back online and give me the cards back that I've borrowed him, so there's no hurry.

The bug is supposed to be fixed on Wednesday, hopefully.

[HoneyT]

@HoneyT: I will finish to buy your decklist and I will play it in a few weeks on a 30+ Player tournament, if u have time, can u explain how to sideboard vs diferent matchups? there are thing that are logic, but others... haha

Regards!!:laugh:

I'd be happy to help with the sideboarding if you tell me specifically which matchups you're referring to.

Also, Barook, that list looks very outdated/not-optimal (even taking budget into consideration). My current list is about two pages ago. I recommend taking a look at it. I can tell you right off the bat your manabase is going to give you nightmares. 3 colorless lands + Dryad Arbor is really pushing your luck. Any veteran Nic Fit player will tell you Dryad Arbor is garbage in non-pod lists (lists with Deed). It simply doesn't fit the basic strategy of the deck.

[Elfkid]

I'd be happy to help with the sideboarding if you tell me specifically which matchups you're referring to.


Probably matchs like: Miracles, Delver,decks, storm, and midrange like jund, maverick, show and tell D:

Thanks for all^^

[Arianrhod]

Home from eternal extravaganza finally after a ridiculously long weekend. Went 3-3-1-drop, for which I place the blame squarely on myself and the playing conditions (the heat was absolutely stupid, and I'm a literal stick of a guy, so I feel heat exhaustion very easily). The Rector list I played was actually insane, and I would have run it back without any qualms. As it stands, with some time to make tweaks, I will likely make a couple of minor changes...but the concept is very, very strong.

I'll post a full report tomorrow, but for now, here's a pair of highlights:

1: My Apex Predator has bagged his first Mindsculptor.
2: Scuttling Doom Engine was directly responsible for three game wins.

[Bobmans]

I'll post a full report tomorrow, but for now, here's a pair of highlights:

1: My Apex Predator has bagged his first Mindsculptor.
2: Scuttling Doom Engine was directly responsible for three game wins.

Looking forward to read about it.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, let me preface this report by noting that the event was great. It was well run, I didn't encounter any salty opponents, much fun was had, etc. Also, Caffrey (the TO) is now aware of the heat problem and is shifting future major events to cooler times of the year to compensate, so that's excellent. That being, said, I place a lot of the blame for my performance on the conditions of the room. Put it this way, in two anecdotes from friends of mine who will remain unnamed:

One of them died to a pair of Vendilion Cliques, in turns, with a judge watching. Neither my friend (a veteran legacy player for many years), his opponent, nor the judge caught this.

The other managed to spin his Top for 8 turns before realizing that he didn't have a Top in play -- again, with multiple people spectating, judges, etc.

It was a rough day.

That said, the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Fierce Empath
2 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vindicate

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Reclamation Sage

sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor

sb: 1 Toxic Deluge
sb: 1 Abrupt Decay
sb: 1 Swords to Plowshares

sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Moat

The only change that I made was to move 1 Rector -> 1 Fierce Empath, because I realized that I didn't have a way to grab Sun Titan / Scuttles when I needed to.

-----------------

Rd1: Dan with Elves

I blind therapy on the play, naming Brainstorm, and miss. I see 2x Quirion Ranger, RecSage, Visionary, Zenith, Arbor, Verdant. He goes land -> Ranger and ships back. I play an Explorer, fire it off, and take his Zenith with the therapy, noting that he drew a Fyndhorn Elves for turn. He makes some Elves, I don't die, and I untap to Deed him. He rebuilds a bit, and I Zenith up Teeg, who stalls my opponent for enough turns that I can get Sun Titan online with the prior Deed, which closes the game out.

I swap out 11 cards, and am prepared to get my shit pushed in (or, maybe, for once, do the shit-pushing-in-ness myself).

He mulls to 6, and goes land, elf, pass. I Therapy (Natural Order) and brick, seeing 2x Decay, Heritage Druid, and Glimpse. He value-Glimpses but it doesn't go anywhere. I kill everything and deploy some hate pieces into his Abrupt Decays, paving the way for Moat (with Zenith in hand for Sigarda). He Zeniths Sage and kills it, and continues anemically beating me with 1/1s. I get Sigarda and win. Very weird, anticlimactic game.

MVP: Gaddock fucking Teeg. Literally saved my existence game 1, and ate a Decay g2 to clear the way for Rule of Law. It's also very hard for Elves to win two postboard games, especially with the types and quantity of hate that this list brings to the table -- it's not all meant for Elves, but it's nice that Elves falls in the crossfire, because seriously, I've had more than enough of losing to that deck.

Rd2: Mike with Deathblade

My opponent scares the fuck out of me by leading with Delta -> Gitaxian Probe. He passes the turn. I Therapy and see StP, Jitte, DRS, Wasteland, Strand?, breathing a huge sigh of relief in the process. Okay, so from barely winnable to unloseable. Got it. We durdle for a bit. He Thoughtseizes me a bunch and lets me keep Selvala after reading her. She only gets to activate a couple of times before he realizes the card advantage that she's giving me (and life, and mana) is actually a huge problem. He eventually dies with me at 14.

G2 he curves out wicked fast with TNN + TarPit. I put up a token resistance but I can't handle the unblockables backed up by a ton of discard + Liliana, and I die in fairly short order.

G3 he slams a Jace and immediately starts +2ing as both I didn't have much board presence and we were very short on time at this point. I play around his Sword of Feast and Famine'd Stoneforge to keep Apex in hand, and slam it at 7 lands. His Jace is at like 9 I think. His face was pretty priceless. Apex goes +1, Jace goes bye bye. Apex unfortunately can only make a 3/3 before dying to the Stoneforge, but he did his work -- he saved me two turns of Feast/Famine procs + took out the Jace that was almost nuclear. Deed clears out the board, and on Sigarda's wings we are victorious.

MVP: uhhh....the deck. No one card stood out overmuch -- although both Apex and Council's Judgment put in good work against Deathblade's hard-to-answer threats. Also, Mike was an awesome guy and we definitely checked in on each other throughout the day. He was also a friend of the Elves player I beat in round 1.

Rd3: Kurt Speiss with RG Lands

My heart sank a bit when I saw the pairing because Kurt's name stuck in my head as being a lands player. Sure enough, I was right.

Our game one was absolutely nuts. I -almost- milled him out game 1 -- he had 8 cards left in his deck at the end of the game. I needed to answer Merit Lage two more times, I think, and I would've been fine. Also, I had a window of like 3-4 turns at which point if Scuttles had shown up (or hell, even Empath/Zenith to get it), I would've been able to kill him. For a while he was manabonding out Glacial Chasm because why not, but when I killed his Bond, he stopped bothering with the Chasm -- why should he when he had 2 Maze of Iths and a Merit Lage? At that point, for a few turns, I could've Scuttled him...but it just didn't show up.

Anyway, I stalled for a long ass time with Baneslayer + Recurring Nightmare until he finally answered it with Bojuka Bog, and I had Erebos out so my Swords to Plowshares was very live while not giving him a million life. Erebos's card draw was also fantastic, allowing me to do things on upkeep when he tried to Port me. I just couldn't close the game when I needed to, and eventually he got up to 6 or 7 Rishadan Ports via Stages, and I just couldn't function anymore.

Game two was very, very sad. I played Swamp pass, hoping to make him think I had Extirpate or some such. He went Diamond -> Exploration -> land, port, go. Port your swamp. I played a land and passed. He plays his lands and passes, doesn't port me on upkeep. I'm suspicious but play like a Tribe Elder or something. He goes EoT Crop Rotation, combo, untap, kill you.

Well, that's a thing.

MVP: Oddly enough, I think I give it to Erebos. Erebos's card draw kept me digging for outs in the face of his Ports with mana I couldn't have used for anything else anyway, and the anti-lifegain clause meant that he was still within Scuttle range after Swordsing a Merit Lage. I also think that I may have misplayed slightly by not killing the Manabond a couple of turns earlier. I think I had the chance at one point to Deed for 1 it away and opted to do something else instead. I think that if I had killed the Bond sooner, it might've slowed his development enough that I could've forced him to make some awkward choices about what lands to play, which might've bought me the time to either mill him out or assemble Scuttles.

R4: Chris with UWR Delver

My opponent scares me with Gitaxian Probe again. He plays a Volcanic Island and passes. I figure he's either on RUG or Sneak Show, because I don't remember any UWR Delver lists running Probe. In any event, my hand is pretty sweet (double Therapy, Top, Explorer, Karakas, Savannah, [bomb]) but has no black mana, so I decide to play my Top like a fucking dumbass. Naturally it gets Dazed, which means I don't draw a black source on time for his Stoneforge Mystics, which means I can't stop him from suiting up and just making me dead. I should've played Explorer instead, then untapped into Top + mana to spin, which would have found me my black source 3 cards down, which would've made the Therapies live to tear his hand apart.

Game two isn't even a game. I mull to 5 and he curves Delver -> (flip) + SFM -> double TNN with Force backup.

MVP: my own stupidity.

R5: Dan with Deadguy Ale

I have a nutty opening hand including Explorer + Tower + Zenith + stuff. He leads with Swamp pass. I drop Explorer and pass back, intending to fire off the Tower next turn. He snap Swords my Explorer and ships back. Okay. I play Tower, Zenith up Explorer, pass. Swords. Fuck. It's okay, I drew another one for next turn. He plays a Tidehollow Sculler and takes the third Explorer. -_________________-

We grind for a bit. I eventually come out on top because you don't simply outgrind Nic Fit.

Game two he makes a lot of fast pressure, including an all-in Lingering Souls to try to kill me before I can stabilize. Unfortunately, Deadguy is not the best deck at pretending to be all-in red, and after Thragtusk -> Sigarda, I stabilize anyway. He's at 16 to my 5 (after Thragging). With Sigarda holding defense, the Tusk goes aggro, and he decides to Swords it after taking a turn or two of beats. I Top into Scuttles, and look at his board of creatures with power <2. Funny how that works. I proceed to TOOT all over his life total.

MVP: Sigarda being a boss as usual, Scuttles for being really good against weeny decks.

R6: Ryan with Miracles

Forty. Minute. Game. One.

This game was absolutely ridiculous. I don't even think I can adequately express everything that happened this game. I killed two of his Tops with Deeds in response to him drawing a card. I had an active Erebos for basically the entire game, which drew me I think 10 cards? I Empathed for Scuttles early in the game just so I had it ready to go, and because as they say in Chess -- sometimes the fear of something is more damning than the thing itself. He was forced to respect the threat of the Doom Engine basically all game -- especially since I used anemic Explorer/Tribe-Elder/Witness beatdown to get him to 6: the magic number for one Toot. I had the Therapy in yard for the Engine, too -- I just had to get him to resolve and my opponent would die. However, Ryan had a Jace TMS chugging through his deck for many, many turns, keeping him at roughly card parity with my Erebos.

I eventually maneuvered him into the proper position by Vindicating his Karakas, which stopped his Venser bullshit, and playing Teeg to lock out the Force of Will I knew he had. I then attempted to play Scuttle, knowing that he still had the Venser in hand, because I had Therapied him a few turns before and I was willing to bet that he'd forgotten that I had a second Therapy in my yard, ready and waiting. Sure enough, he tanked and finally allowed the bug to resolve, doubtlessly planning on Terminusing it next turn or some such. I simply immediately sacced it to Therapy and killed him.

Game two I played horribly and deserved to lose. I kept a fairly strong hand, and Cranialed him on turn 3 after firing off a Tribe Elder. There were like 4 minutes left on the clock. For some godforsaken reason I named Jace instead of Entreat. You can guess what happens. The match ends in a draw, and I'm now in a very bad position when I was in a fairly good position just 5 minutes earlier.

I need to remember that, oddly enough, this neo-Rector list has a lot more outs to Jace than the older variants. We have Council's Judgment now, which is big game. We have Scuttles, who can shoot walkers. We have Apex Predator (which you bet your bottom dollar I sided in). We still have Vindicate and Thrag and Sigarda. Etc. Even not considering the time remaining issue (Jace being a much, much slower wincon), Entreat was still the correct name. Combine that with the fact that the only way he wins the game and thereby draws the match is with Entreat and I have no idea what I was thinking. Temporary insanity, I guess. My friend Frank also pointed out correctly that I was playing very quickly when I really shouldn't have been. I don't really like the idea of gaming the clock, but he has a point. Usually whenever I'm in that situation, I try to play as quickly as I can in game 2 / 3, whichever it is, out of respect for my opponent and a desire to finish the match. That is not, however, a winning strategy. If I'd played at a normal pace, I would have likely been able to draw the match and win the round.

tl;dr I twice-over gave my opponent an out, and he took it on both levels.

MVP: Erebos and Scuttles. Erebos drew me a zillion cards while even just the threat of the Scuttles looming in my hand forced him to play around it. Then, I was able to actually maneuver him into a position where Scuttles was able to close the game (note: where Kokusho couldn't have).

R7: ??? on 2-drop Aether Vial Junk

I'm tilted, sweaty, and miserable by this point. I didn't actually get my opponent's name as a result.

I win the die roll for the first time since round 1, and lead with a blind Therapy. My opponent treats it like a Thoughtseize and starts laying his hand out. I try to look away, but still see a few cards. Instead of doing my usual honorable thing and naming Brainstorm like I would have anyway, I'm instead a douche and name Dark Confidant because that was one of the cards that I saw despite my best efforts.

Side note: this, I feel, is one of the things that stops me from prizing more events than I do. I mean, I still prize fairly regularly. But not as much as I probably could if I didn't feel like an ass about these sorts of advantages. There's nothing 'wrong' with taking advantage of my opponents' stupidity. There's nothing 'wrong' about playing at a normal pace to try to draw the clock (instead of speeding through). But I always feel like a goddamn tool whenever I do something like that, intentionally or not. It's really miserable, and if I intend on ever doing well at an event I probably just need to get over it and take what advantages people give me. /side note.

Anyway, the match is rather chilly in mood after this, despite my opponent casually double wasting me and just running me over with Jitte, Batterskull, Thalia, double StP, Decay, etc.

Game two I end the game at 22 life and kill him with Scuttles. I have ramp and powerful cards, and he can't do much to stop me. Selvala also does a lot of work here.

Game three I have mana problems which are exacerbated by my opponent. I see my first-ever Pernicious Deed of the round, but I can't cast it because Thalia is a filthy slut. I also saw none of my spot removal.

MVP: my opponent's Wastelands. I don't think I'll ever get used to the feeling (since I haven't yet after 3 years) of losing to Wasteland in a deck with 8 basics and 6 fetches.

At 3-3-1, I'm now dead even for top 64, so I drop.

-------------

Overall thoughts:

Teeg was oddly useless outside of Elves and a fringe situation against Miracles. That being said, I wasn't really unhappy to have him in the list because he was / is a very good insurance policy against most combo decks, and like I mentioned earlier, if you can steal game 1 from a combo deck, it gets VERY hard for them to win both postboard games.

2 Eternal Witnesses is too many, even for this deck. I never nightmare-looped them, and I had multiple opponents board in serious graveyard hate against me (Rest in Peace). 1 of these slots is free.

Selvala was amazing. She's a very, very skill-testing card and if you adopt her usage (which I would urge you to do if you're in junk (azban?) colors), please be very careful! Usually I used her as an endstep howling mine + lifegain + top engine. Sometimes I decided to go beatdown with her instead of activating her ability. I only used her mainphase when I really needed business or when I knew there was something on top of my deck that I wanted. That being said, there are times when using her mainphase is correct. You just have to evaluate the board state + your opponent each and every turn to determine the optimal usage of her. That being said, she was absolutely fantastic.

Empath is empath. I don't particularly like the card, but it's a necessary evil when you're running nongreen 6s. I might be persuaded to run some other variety of tutor in this slot instead -- maybe Diabolic Intent. That said, I'm always uneasy about Intent because I've had it get stuck in my hand a few times in POD VERSIONS WITH 30 CREATURES, so running it in one with ~20 seems very dangerous.

2 Rectors felt correct. I didn't see them that often, but my enchantment package is limited enough that I wouldn't want the 3rd. I also played against a -lot- of StP decks, and Rector has historically never been as good vs them as the RUGs, BUGs, etc of the world.

Sigarda is still the best win condition in Nic Fit (well, at least tied with Scapeshift).

The Baneslayers didn't really feel like coming out and playing for some reason. I barely saw them at all on the weekend. Chalk that one up to variance.

Scuttles. Where do I begin. The card straight up won me three games. Of those, only one (the game vs Miracles), do I feel that no other 6-drop could have won me that game. Someone mentioned Grave Titan a few days ago, and, my well-established hatred for Grave Titan notwithstanding, realistically it would have done what Scuttles did EXCEPT for the Miracles game. I never assembled Scuttling Nightmare, but I did feel a bit better knowing that it was in my deck. It would have given me an out vs Lands that otherwise nothing (not even Grave Titan) could have handled. I'm currently undecided on this slot. I like the Doombot a lot, but I'm not sure if it's optimal vs, say, cutting the 2nd 6 + the Empath for 1 net slot (making the Empath some other tutor that could also get Sun Titan if need be).

Erebos was great. The anti-lifegain clause was relevant a couple of times, and the card draw was powerful. He will be my choice for the mystical ever-fluctuating "card advantage default enchantment slot" that's been a pain in the ass to figure out since Abrupt Decay was printed (invalidating Phyrexian Arena).

Council's Judgment. How many ways do I love you. I'm seriously contemplating cutting the Vindicate for a second copy of this card and just saying fuck utility lands. I strongly recommend the adoption of this card as a 1-3 of in every junk-colored Nic Fit variant. It gets rid of basically anything, and you can tempo your opponent out some games because they need to respond to it on the stack, meaning bouncing Batterskull, using Top, etc -- even if you're going to name something different anyway! Fantastic card.

Vindicate -- like I said, I might cut this for a 2nd Judgment. Hitting utility lands is still relevant -- it did break up the Venser bullshit vs Miracles, which is good...but otherwise it was basically just a slightly worse Council's Judgment averaged on the day.

The 1-1 split of Decay and Swords felt fine. Swordsing something with Erebos out is an amazing feeling. It was rather nice actually having spot removal and being able to say "No, Deathrite Shaman, you are not going to slowly devour my graveyard for value this game." Fucking squires.

I missed having the 2nd Phyrexian Tower for more explosive starts. Whether or not it would be correct to add it in or not, I'm undecided. I did periodically have mana issues on the day, so adding a 23rd land might be correct. Whether it would be the 2nd Tower or not, I dunno. Turn 2 Baneslayer is a hell of a drug, and once you do it once you always just want to do it again.

As for the sideboard...

Apex does exactly what I want it to do. It kills anything that's a problem, stabilizes the board, and eventually wins the game -- all while -gaining- loyalty. The loyalty gain while removing something is why I prefer Apex to Karn -- Karn can exile anything...but it comes at the cost of putting himself in Bolt/Delver/TNN range. Sure if you have a turn to ramp Karn to 10 loyalty, then he's god -- but usually when you play a 7-drop you don't have the board that level of under control that it's safe to nom someone's hand. Apex goes to 6 loyalty to destroy a planeswalker or make a 3/3 deathtouch; or if need be he goes to 2 to destroy a flying creature. All of this seems better than going to 3 loyalty to exile something. Apex is fine for control mirrors, which is what I want the slot to do.

RecSage was largely irrelevant. I brought it in vs the various stoneforge decks, obviously, but I never really got it or saw it. The equipment tended to be handled by removal, Deeds, or Therapies, and I don't think I ever once Zenithed up RecSage. This slot is probably actually cuttable. I think that blue nic fits and possibly red ones will care significantly more about RecSage than white will with the adoption of Council's Judgment.

Moat was fucking useless garbage, again. I brought it in vs Elves, where it ate a RecSage, but that could've just as easily been another card that would've mattered somewhere else. I'm not pissed at the card enough to the point where I would consider getting rid of my copy, but it's definitely off the roster for the foreseeable future.

Deluge and the extra removal spells were nice to have in the board to bring in against the creature decks, but I'm not sure if they're optimal. Some of their future will likely be determined by the maindeck configuration. Ideally I would like to have the following removal suite somewhere between main and side:

3 Deed
1 Deluge

3 Judgment
1 Vindicate

3 StP
2 Decay

This is obviously ambitious to find the room for, and I don't think that we'll get quite there, but that's about where I would feel comfortable with my answers. I'll be doing some thinking and tuning over the next couple of days, and will hopefully have an updated list before long.

That being said.

If you have a major event coming up and you want to play a junk-colored list, I would strongly recommend this one. It's not in its final form yet, but even without the next round of tweaks, this list is ridiculously powerful. My performance does not do this 76 justice, and that's something I will hopefully be able to fix before the SCG Invitational at Somerset (which I will be attending).

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Sounds like a very fun deck, it's a bummer the conditions weren't that great. I'm particularly interested in Selvala, I love that card and had almost forgotten about it. I also can't wait to baneslayer the 2 new burn players at my weekly.

What would you replace the moat and nethervoid with if you were broke? I feel like choke is a good choice but I'm coming up blank for the next slot so maybe it should just be another piece of removal.

[Arianrhod]

Sounds like a very fun deck, it's a bummer the conditions weren't that great. I'm particularly interested in Selvala, I love that card and had almost forgotten about it. I also can't wait to baneslayer the 2 new burn players at my weekly.

What would you replace the moat and nethervoid with if you were broke? I feel like choke is a good choice but I'm coming up blank for the next slot so maybe it should just be another piece of removal.

Moat's getting cut anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. If you need to play before I figure out what I want to replace it with, you could do worse than putting in another CJ in that slot. Or, if you have two burn players at your local, you can just troll them with CoP:Red, Sanctimony, Warmth, or some such.

Nether Void's budget replacement is easy: you run Curse of Exhaustion. Nether Void (aka Never Void) is still way better and definitely something you should work towards as you get trade-in / money, but Curse will function in that slot until you take the plunge.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Nether Void's budget replacement is easy: you run Curse of Exhaustion. Nether Void (aka Never Void) is still way better and definitely something you should work towards as you get trade-in / money, but Curse will function in that slot until you take the plunge.Curse is interesting but it seems pretty redundant when also running rule of law. The only real advantages are the protection from abrupt decay and one-sidedness right?

[Arianrhod]

Curse is interesting but it seems pretty redundant when also running rule of law. The only real advantages are the protection from abrupt decay and one-sidedness right?

Being immune to Decay is fairly relevant vs ANT, Elves, and others.

Rule of Law is experimental, but basically serves as a bridge between Canonist and Nether Void. Void and Canonist don't necessarily come in vs all of the same decks. For example, Nether Void isn't good enough against Elves. Canonist is, but Canonist dies to many things (including combat). Rule of Law is an extra Elves card which also has applications (obviously) against Storm.

Redundancy is the single best way to beat combo decks. Layering different cards which attack on slightly different angles at different mana costs is a good plan. Ideally, yes, you'd have Void and Rule both, and then you'd be able to flexibly adapt to the specific strategy / counterhate that you're trying to beat....but in the absence of Void, it's still wise to diversify by manacost if nothing else.

[Schulzchop]

Played BUG Explorer Pod in Eternal Extravaganza in Coopersburg, PA last weekend and finished 7-2, good for 14th. Beat 2x BUG Delver, 2x DnT, Food Chain, Reanimator, Scapewish (Sam castrucci); lost to UW Stoneblade, and win-and-in against Shardless BUG (James Rynkiewicz). Here's the list:
MAIN
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
4 Force of Will
2 Envelop
2 Riptide Pilferer
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pernicious Deed

Highlights/Notes:
-Blew a deed for 9 to clear an Iona (naming blue) off the field. He then exhumed it back (naming green), but I got a Strix back to play defense. I then drew into Shriekmaw to finish off that Iona for good.
-Played Sam Castrucci, on Scapewish. The Vet Explorer mirrors are strange, but Cabal Therapy and Glen Elendra Archmage were enough to protect against randomly dying from Scapeshift, and Redcap/Shriekmaw went to work on his Huntmasters.
-The Trinket Mage package was pretty good on the day. Having access to a maindeck needle can be a lifesaver.
-Still not sure about the sideboard. The extra Deed, decay, charm, and Carpet of flowers were all excellent. The rest are up for consideration.
-I consistently boarded out the Sower, not sure if its worth the maindeck slot, or what I'd want to replace it with.
-The RecSage was vital and its a welcome addition to this list.

[litenkatt]

the other managed to spin his top for 8 turns before realizing that he didn't have a top in play -- again, with multiple people spectating, judges, etc.


rofl

[Arianrhod]

rofl

#Miracles

At least he snap conceded when he realized what he'd done, lol

@Schulz:

Why not just swap the sideboard Venser --> maindeck Sower? Venser is more generically useful vs Sower's specificity, and they're the same CMC.

Very surprised that there's no Top to tutor up with Trinket Mage.

RecSage is definitely a huge upgrade for BUG Pod. Glad it performed.

I definitely don't understand your sideboard in general. Obviously Forces, extra deed, etc makes sense -- but why the split on Garruks? Why 1 Carpet of Flowers? Are Envelop and Pilferer actually good enough? etc

[Zombiesquisher]

I'm trying to get into this deck but I'm wondering which is a better version BWG or BRG? and can I play Sigarda and Gravetitan in the same deck with Huntmaster and Pod? I have so many cards I want to try out but I know I don't want to do a blue splash.

[Arianrhod]

I'm trying to get into this deck but I'm wondering which is a better version BWG or BRG? and can I play Sigarda and Gravetitan in the same deck with Huntmaster and Pod? I have so many cards I want to try out but I know I don't want to do a blue splash.

Honestly, each variant has its own unique strengths and weaknesses, and within that, each individual list of that particular variant is tuned to the particular pilot. It really just comes down to what you want to do, what you want to beat, and where you want to start.

[Schulzchop]

#Miracles

At least he snap conceded when he realized what he'd done, lol

@Schulz:

Why not just swap the sideboard Venser --> maindeck Sower? Venser is more generically useful vs Sower's specificity, and they're the same CMC.

Very surprised that there's no Top to tutor up with Trinket Mage.

RecSage is definitely a huge upgrade for BUG Pod. Glad it performed.

I definitely don't understand your sideboard in general. Obviously Forces, extra deed, etc makes sense -- but why the split on Garruks? Why 1 Carpet of Flowers? Are Envelop and Pilferer actually good enough? etc

-Venser/Sower swap seems reasonable, I will try this out

-I didn't fit Top in because I figured i would just rely on brainstorm, and I couldn't decide which card to cut for it before the event. I guess I could always run 61...

-The sideboard was testing a lot of ideas basically. I wanted to try out both Garruks; I thought Primal Hunter might be more powerful against midrange/miracles type decks and Relentless could maybe be better against small creature decks. Haven't found out if that's the case or not. I definitely want something that can effectively fight miracles/Jaces so any reccomendations are welcome. I never knew how powerful Carpet was, but seeing how amazing it was I will probably go up on those. Pilferers are just awkward and I can see those being something else. Envelops have been solid, but I wonder if I shouldn't have some number of Flusterstorm/Swan song. The reason I didn't use Swan Song was because I don't want to have Swans preventing me from attacking a Jace. Anyway I'm certainly open to suggestions here.

[Nithkar]

I definitely want something that can effectively fight miracles/Jaces so any reccomendations are welcome.

Maybe biggest Garruk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Garruk,%20Apex%20Predator#printing=24909;tab=sellers)? I've never played BUG Pod variant, though, so i don't know how real 7 mana is, it might be too difficult to assemble. But then, you might get to cast it with a counter spell backup. Arianrhod can give you a much better insight on the card than me, but it think it kinda fulfill that role in theory.

[strom]

@Arianrhod: Nice Report and interesting list.
I wonder if Vraska should get played instead of the new Garruk if the main purpose is to kill planeswalkers. Im always a bit sceptical on cards with cc7, even in a Nic Fit Shell.

[Arianrhod]

Maybe biggest Garruk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Garruk,%20Apex%20Predator#printing=24909;tab=sellers)? I've never played BUG Pod variant, though, so i don't know how real 7 mana is, it might be too difficult to assemble. But then, you might get to cast it with a counter spell backup. Arianrhod can give you a much better insight on the card than me, but it think it kinda fulfill that role in theory.

Yeah, Apex is definitely the best Garruk for that purpose, no question. That same "goal" is what I had in mind when I put Apex in my board, and he performed it well.


@Arianrhod: Nice Report and interesting list.
I wonder if Vraska should get played instead of the new Garruk if the main purpose is to kill planeswalkers. Im always a bit sceptical on cards with cc7, even in a Nic Fit Shell.

No, because Vraska leaves behind a useless walker with 2 loyalty. Vraska is a bad walker because her +1 does literally nothing to impact the gamestate. I would much rather spend 2 extra mana to get a 6-loyalty walker -after- killing the target who can then proceed to protect himself from most threats from that point.

[HoneyT]

Probably matchs like: Miracles, Delver,decks, storm, and midrange like jund, maverick, show and tell D:

Thanks for all^^

Alright here's the requested sideboard help for Pfire Nic Fit. Bear in mind, this is not black and white; you'll need to be flexible depending your opponent's specific card choices. Because of that, I think it's more useful to talk about what's important in a given matchup as opposed to strict sideboarding guides. We'll be using the following list for reference:

Punishing Nic Fit

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Miracles
This is one of the matchups where you need to be able to be very flexible with your sideboarding. Generally speaking, I'll be taking out some numbers of Punishing Fire, Eternal Witness, Scavenging Ooze, and Veteran Explorers and Cabal Therapy. We don't want our graveyard based stuff in the event they're running Rest in Peace. Explorers also help them almost as much as us. I typically leave one in to Zenith for in emergencies. We're looking to bring in the REBs, Choke, Slaughter Games, and K-Grip.

Against a mostly stock list, I would sideboard something like this:
-3 Veteran Explorer, -2 Punishing Fire, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Cabal Therapy
+3 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Choke, +1 Krosan Grip, +2 Slaughter Games

I have to reiterate in this matchup you must be very adaptable. Against creature-heavy lists with Cliques, Vensers, and Snapcasters, you may want to leave in an extra PFire. Against the lists trying to Rest in Peace you, Witness loses value etc.

Delver.dec
You lumped them together so I'll kind of go over them together. All variants are pretty favorable with RUG being the toughest as they have the fastest clock and are most likely to mana screw you. Generally speaking there's not much sideboarding to do in these matchups as they're pretty heavily in your favor. Choke and REBs are the cards you want (and K-Grip vs UWR)

Vs RUG I would sideboard something like this
-2 Punishing Fire, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke

Pretty straightforward. Pfire only kills Delver. Witness is clunky and you can't spend tons of time durdling with Therapy.

Vs BUG would be something like this
-4 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke

Vs UWR would be something like this
-2 Eternal Witness, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -2 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke, +1 Krosan Grip

Storm
Very straightforward. Take out bad cards, put in good ones.

-1 Primeval Titan, -1 Broodmate Dragon, -1 Thrun, the Last Troll, -3 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Pernicious Deed
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical Extraction, +3 REB, +2 Slaughter Games

Midrange (Jund/Maverick etc)
Again I'll lump these because you did though the sideboarding is about the same. Shuffle in all 15 then take them all back out. These matchups are so lopsided in your favor there's not much sideboarding required. You can board in Golgari Charms vs Maverick and maybe K-Grip if they run Batterskull but that's about it.

Show and Tell
Again, very straightforward. Take out bad, put in good.

-3 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay, -3 Pernicious Deed, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Primeval Titan, -1 Broodmate Dragon, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows

+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Slaughter Games, +3 REB, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip

That covers the matchups you asked for. Need any other advice just let me know.

[Elfkid]

Miracles
Storm
Show and Tell


Hi HoneyT:laugh:

First of all, thanks for your answer, It nice have people that are helping me to start correctly with this deck haha

And the second, in this matchups you side in the SG, and I think that they depends the situation and the cards that can win us, but normally what card you name with it?

I think, IMO:

Miracles: 1) Entreat 2) jace

Storm: ANT: 1) Tendrils of agony 2) Burning W 3) Pif

TES: 1) Wish 2) Infernal tutor

Show and tell: Omnishow: 1) Enter the infinite 2) Cunning Wish
Sneak and Show: 1) Griseldady 2) Emrakul

Thanks for all^^

[Ralf]

Hi HoneyT:laugh:

First of all, thanks for your answer, It nice have people that are helping me to start correctly with this deck haha

And the second, in this matchups you side in the SG, and I think that they depends the situation and the cards that can win us, but normally what card you name with it?

I think, IMO:

Miracles: 1) Entreat 2) jace

Storm: ANT: 1) Tendrils of agony 2) Burning W 3) Pif

TES: 1) Wish 2) Infernal tutor

Show and tell: Omnishow: 1) Enter the infinite 2) Cunning Wish
Sneak and Show: 1) Griseldady 2) Emrakul

Thanks for all^^

1) Miracle -> yes go for ETA and then Jace
2) ANT -> yes but I don't see that many still playing BW.
3) TES -> Ok
4) Omnishow -> When you have taken out ETI, their only out is Emrakul so i'll pick that second.
5) S&S -> Emrakul and then Grisel (because Emrakul kills you faster...)

To add some general notes to sideboarding options (as I've tested some very particular MU):

1) Against Shardless BUG, I'll take out "Liliana" for "Thoughtseize" as your Liliana does not match theirs and it is important to grab one of their CA engine (be it AV / Shardless / Jace).
A turn 1 = AV is a 70 % loss for you (post side so that it includes REB...). PF = MVP in this MU, so play them tight.

->HoneyT BUG sideboard and -3 Liliana + 3 TS

2) Against storm I'll leave at least 2 AD in. Some storm players have strange sideboard options and you could get caught in the middle of something nasty, not to mention that they expect to cope with even more disruptions G2 & G3 so that they will likely play LED on their first turn to prevent you from being able to discard it (this is where AD shines). And if you wonder why: yes, I did lose to Xantid (holding SE and REB in hands), Pyromancer dudes more than I would want...

-> HoneyT sideboard and -1 Kessig -1 Forest +2 AD

3) Against Midrange it comes down to what you are facing but keep in mind that you are in the control seat. You are likely to face gravehate, so expect it and play tight.

Maverick = +2 Golgari -2 Liliana
Junk = +3 TS - 3 Liliana (mostly because of lingering souls), you can also go for +2 Golgari -2 Cabal Therapy.
Jund = +3 TS -3 Liliana (-3 therapy). We are favored but not by much. Bob, BBE, library (CA engine) should not be taken too lighlty or you will lose. I like to keep therapy in (instead of Liliana) because Jund list are usually "Quadlazered" (4 bob, 4 goyf, 4 drs etc...) so that a successful therapy could end the game before it even started.

[Barook]

@HoneyT: How would you expect your list to perform in the current online metagame?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

I'm currently unsatisfied how D&T performs in that meta (combination of bad luck and bad match-ups) and looking for non-blue alternatives to play in the meantime.

And how important is Liliana? I could sell off some boosters to buy 2-3 Lilianas, depending on the importance. At some point I would acquire them anyway since she's a staple.

Edit: That's all assuming they fix the Grove bug.

[HoneyT]

1) Against Shardless BUG, I'll take out "Liliana" for "Thoughtseize" as your Liliana does not match theirs and it is important to grab one of their CA engine (be it AV / Shardless / Jace).
A turn 1 = AV is a 70 % loss for you (post side so that it includes REB...). PF = MVP in this MU, so play them tight.

->HoneyT BUG sideboard and -3 Liliana + 3 TS

2) Against storm I'll leave at least 2 AD in. Some storm players have strange sideboard options and you could get caught in the middle of something nasty, not to mention that they expect to cope with even more disruptions G2 & G3 so that they will likely play LED on their first turn to prevent you from being able to discard it (this is where AD shines). And if you wonder why: yes, I did lose to Xantid (holding SE and REB in hands), Pyromancer dudes more than I would want...

-> HoneyT sideboard and -1 Kessig -1 Forest +2 AD

3) Against Midrange it comes down to what you are facing but keep in mind that you are in the control seat. You are likely to face gravehate, so expect it and play tight.

Maverick = +2 Golgari -2 Liliana
Junk = +3 TS - 3 Liliana (mostly because of lingering souls), you can also go for +2 Golgari -2 Cabal Therapy.
Jund = +3 TS -3 Liliana (-3 therapy). We are favored but not by much. Bob, BBE, library (CA engine) should not be taken too lighlty or you will lose. I like to keep therapy in (instead of Liliana) because Jund list are usually "Quadlazered" (4 bob, 4 goyf, 4 drs etc...) so that a successful therapy could end the game before it even started.

You're approaching the midrange decks wrong. The matchups are very much a grind where your goal is to get to the mid/late game and take over with more powerful cards. It's the classic big zoo vs little zoo. The zoo deck with Baneslayers is going to beat the deck with little dorks. Thoughtseize does not accomplish that goal. You want your cards to affect the board and a 3 mana edict is just fine. In a topdeck war if they rip a bob or goyf and you rip a Thoughtseize you are not going to win.

I didn't previously go over Shardless BUG because he didn't ask about it. But it's another very favorable matchup. The only way they can realistically win is with Jace and Visions so again, Thoughtseize is not where you want to be in that matchup. REB is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy better.

Against storm leaving in Decay is silly. You already leave Deeds in the deck for artifact mana, random dudes they may bring in and empty tokens. You can only keep so many of that type of effect in the deck and Deed is just the best at the job. If someone is boarding in Xantid Swarm against you, be happy because that means they took out a card that does something.

And Barook, the deck should perform just fine in the online metagame. It's just going to require lots of practice and fair warning, like Arianrhod and myself have told many a new Nic Fit player, you will lose a lot at first. But once you learn the intricacies of each matchup you'll notice your win rate will climb.

[Barook]

And Barook, the deck should perform just fine in the online metagame. It's just going to require lots of practice and fair warning, like Arianrhod and myself have told many a new Nic Fit player, you will lose a lot at first. But once you learn the intricacies of each matchup you'll notice your win rate will climb.
I have no problem with that. Same with D&T in match-ups like Miracles. Good thing is MODO allows you to pratice alot pretty fast. :smile: And long as I'm doing fine against Miracles, Elves, various Delver decks and Burn, I'm fine.

That still leaves my Liliana question open: How crucial are they in the grand scheme of things?

[Asthereal]

@HoneyT: You mentioned perhaps ditching a Grove in the Sneak&Show matchup. Wouldn't it be better to side out the Wolf Run?
We have no Primeval Titan anymore to make it work for the best, and it doesn't tap for coloured mana.
I would think it'd be a good idea to cut the Wolf Run and keep the fourth Grove.

Also against Storm that could be a slot, keeping the third Deed in to make going off with a row of mana rocks somewhat more awkward, and of course as an out against the occasional Empty the Warrens. Not that they should go for Empty against Nic Fit, but sometimes that's just the hand they draw.

[Fatal]

Hello,
About two year ago I was working Nic Fit and 12post hybrid, I even won GPT Amsterdam in Warsaw with it.Now after decay priniting I wrote Primer, Its very well handling current meta. Keeping good MU with RUG and BUG with much better MU vs Miracles was main aim link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

Have a nice reading it's still under construction so any advice/errors please send to me.

[HoneyT]

@Barook
I wouldn't play the deck without Lily. It's one of your best threats vs combo and miracles and is obviously very good with Pfire. You could in theory run a list without them but it will not perform as optimally.

@Asthereal
The cut should actually be basic forest. The manabase can still support 2 colorless lands and I like being able to draw Wolf Run and put the clock on and close out the game quickly.

For storm that was my sideboarding vs ANT. Vs TES I do board out a land and keep the third Deed. They have Chrome Mox and are more likely to go for goblins making Deed better against them.

[Ralf]

You're approaching the midrange decks wrong. The matchups are very much a grind where your goal is to get to the mid/late game and take over with more powerful cards. It's the classic big zoo vs little zoo. The zoo deck with Baneslayers is going to beat the deck with little dorks. Thoughtseize does not accomplish that goal. You want your cards to affect the board and a 3 mana edict is just fine. In a topdeck war if they rip a bob or goyf and you rip a Thoughtseize you are not going to win.

I didn't previously go over Shardless BUG because he didn't ask about it. But it's another very favorable matchup. The only way they can realistically win is with Jace and Visions so again, Thoughtseize is not where you want to be in that matchup. REB is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy better.

After more than 100 matches against Shardless BUG (version with Tombstalker & Toxic deluge MD) the last two weeks, post side TS > Liliana.
And I don't see where I said I don't side in REB. I'm doing REB + TS.
And no, the MU is clearly not "very favourable" rather " lightly unfavourable" since I lost 55/60 % the first games. It gets a little better post board to a mere 50/50.

I do agree with you the big Z vs little z but not in these MU.
-> Junk is very favourable (10-1 against my friend last sunday) but against SFM & lingering soul, I prefer TS over Liliana because the edict effect is too unreliable / and grabbing equipment, whenever they look for it, is priceless if not the match drags forever...
-> If Jund curves properly which is why it is more often than not a DTB with the following sequence T1 fetch DRS, T2 TS + Bob, T3 Hymn + waste/ T3 BBE cascade, they'll rip your hand apart with TS/Hymn and Liliana won't get you out of trouble. You NEED to handle the T2 CA engine (Bob, Sylvan, Hymn) if not you are behind. And TS is far better than Liliana is this config.



Against storm leaving in Decay is silly. You already leave Deeds in the deck for artifact mana, random dudes they may bring in and empty tokens. You can only keep so many of that type of effect in the deck and Deed is just the best at the job. If someone is boarding in Xantid Swarm against you, be happy because that means they took out a card that does something.

I'm increasing the deck's card density by cutting 2 lands for 2 AD. 23 lands is too much against deck's strategy that wins on T2/T3. (Not only xantid but also the pyromancer guy shitting dudes...)

I'm always happy to discuss "sideboarding strategy".

[Arianrhod]

Here's the Rector list that I'll be starting testing with:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
2 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Tsunami
sb: 1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist

sb: 2 Carpet of Flowers
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Engineered Plague

[Fatal]

Interesting chooses:

1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned

Can you explain why this cards ? Specially why SDE - I can't find how it can be better then Wurmcoil Engine.

[Philipp2293]

It kills directly when looping with Rec. Nightmare, also it gives a bit of reach.

What I'm more interested in is the shift from 2 STE to additional removal -aren't you afraid that your deck becomes too clunky, or do you think that the additional removal buys you the necessary time to make additional land drops and thus compensate for the decrease in ramp?

Other than this, I'm strongly considering picking this deck up, once I have the missing pieces - it's been a while since I sleeved up Rectors.

[Tom4ik]

I would guess that it is a 6 ball that can be redirected to dome planeswalkers if you have a sac effect ready when you play it. Seems fine with recurring nightmare too as this list has quite a few creatures that dont really use the loop.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

That still leaves my Liliana question open: How crucial are they in the grand scheme of things?I think they are really important. Lili is great in so many varied matchups that I think you should have a really good reason to run anything else. The ability for one of your removal spells to stick around and take over the game on it's own certainly adds a lot of power compared to just using an edict effect in that slot. She can also grind people out in a roundabout way by just feeding her the same p-fire every turn.

[Barook]

The PF bug is supposed to get fixed tomorrow, so it's to for me to pick up the deck.

That said, what's our plan against Burn? It's a major part of the online metagame and must be taken into consideration.

[Tom4ik]

Rush for Tusk, Huntmaster and Ooze. Ideally the first 2 and then the Ooze. Play around PoP and you will find burn is not too challenging.

[Arianrhod]

Interesting chooses:

1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned

Can you explain why this cards ? Specially why SDE - I can't find how it can be better then Wurmcoil Engine.


It kills directly when looping with Rec. Nightmare, also it gives a bit of reach.

What I'm more interested in is the shift from 2 STE to additional removal -aren't you afraid that your deck becomes too clunky, or do you think that the additional removal buys you the necessary time to make additional land drops and thus compensate for the decrease in ramp?

Other than this, I'm strongly considering picking this deck up, once I have the missing pieces - it's been a while since I sleeved up Rectors.


I would guess that it is a 6 ball that can be redirected to dome planeswalkers if you have a sac effect ready when you play it. Seems fine with recurring nightmare too as this list has quite a few creatures that dont really use the loop.

These are both correct with regards to Scuttles.

I firmly believe that for Rector to exist in today's metagame, the graveyard interaction which makes Rector what it is must sadly be de-emphasized. That said: you still do want some powerful toys to go with Nightmare because it's a good way to break open game 1s against a lot of decks and because you want to encourage people to side in their graveyard hate while you side out your graveyard interaction.

Nice Rest in Peace bro. Here's an Apex Predator.

With regards to Selvala, there's a couple of things going here.

-) She's huge. 2/4 for 1gw is very sizable -- she can block a powered mongoose forever, for example. There are times where she can reasonably beat down, too, although I do wish she had vigilance.
-) She gains life...potentially 2/turn. This means that when passed through the philosophy of Time, an activate Selvala will gain 1 Turn per 2 activations on average. Incidentally, 2 life is also the cost of a card per Erebos.
-) She gains mana...potentially 2/turn. I have rarely used her as a mana dork, but it is necessary functionality to be aware of. Some times you'll have 2 lands, Selvala, and can play and crack Deed for 1.
-) She draws cards. This is the big one. Yes, the opponent draws a card, too. The ability is actual howling mine (although if you EoT it, you get first crack at the extra cards). However, keep in mind that Nic Fit's cards are almost universally better than the opponents'. Furthermore, the card drawn is known information, so if whatever they draw is actually that scary, we can always Therapy it out.
-) She also makes Top turbo-charged. You can Top, put a nonland on top, Selvala, drawing said nonland and gaining 1 life and 1 mana, and then use that mana to re-Top, getting one deeper. Top is powerful when it's 1: look at the top 3. It's broken when it's 1: look at the top 4. I would argue that Top@3 is parity with blue's card selection, but that Top@4 surpasses it.
-) This is rather fringe, but you can also stonewall a Batterskull or a Jitte with her + Karakas. It's not what you want to be doing at all, but it is possible.

@Phillip:

Note that I specifically said that this is a list wherein I will -start testing-. I have no idea if trimming the pair of Sakuras for the extra StP + Decay is actually correct. I know that I like the idea of having additional removal -- as you said, it changes the metric from having quite so much ramp to one wherein you're able to make more land drops because you aren't dying to a 3/2 on turn one.

There are a few other things going on here, though.

Consider the mana curve as compared to the Rector lists of yore. The new list is much more trim and lithe, with a lower overall cmc and specifically fewer 4-drops. The older Rector lists wanted to skip to 4 mana as quickly as possible to deploy Rector. This list is much more controlling and much more geared to the long game. It's not quite as inevitable as 12post or Lands, but it's close. If there is one thing that Sakura is good at, it's skipping from 2->4. We don't as much want to skip to 4, now, though. If anything, I think I would rather run Wood Elves because it skips from 3->5, which is more relevant because our true power comes at 5.

Furthermore, the Recurring Nightmare engines have been de-emphasized. Like I said, there is still interaction and Nightmare is still fundamentally broken in game one. But the games wherein we rush Nightmare will be much rarer. There was a point at which one of the reasons for Sakura's inclusion was that it put a critter in the graveyard to Nightmare loop with on turn 3. We no longer live in that world.

We'll see where testing takes us. Cutting Sakura might be a horrible idea and I might immediately reverse my decision, but I want to try it. For Rector, Sakura is not the sacred cow (snake?) that it is for something like, say, Scapewish. Scapewish's velocity requires as many lands being spewed into play as quickly as possible. Rector is more interested in playing a control game, and that means you need removal arguably more than extra ramp.

Also, I should specify something about the Sun's Champion I have in the sideboard currently. Ideally, I want a 5-drop combat walker in that slot. The issue is that the only currently existing playable 5-drop combat walker is Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I do not want two Garruks for obvious reasons. Pending testing, she may become either her original Knight-Errant iteration or the classic Sorin, Lord of Innistrad that I've run a number of times. I do know that I want that slot to be a planeswalker. I just don't know which one (or if it even exists yet).

[OCPunisher]

Also, I should specify something about the Sun's Champion I have in the sideboard currently. Ideally, I want a 5-drop combat walker in that slot. The issue is that the only currently existing playable 5-drop combat walker is Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I do not want two Garruks for obvious reasons. Pending testing, she may become either her original Knight-Errant iteration or the classic Sorin, Lord of Innistrad that I've run a number of times. I do know that I want that slot to be a planeswalker. I just don't know which one (or if it even exists yet).

What do you mean by "a 5-drop combat walker"? Is that just something like Elspeth KE or Sorin LOI that drops a body in front of it right away, or is it just any five-drop walker? If it's the latter, the two I immediately thought of were Vraska and Gideon.

[Barook]

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?

[Elfkid]

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?

I asked him the same thing, he answered me this:

"Recurring Nightmare in this deck is a non-tutorable enchantment that does nothing on its own and increases your vulnerability to graveyard hate unnecessarily. That's also why I play Kessig Wolf Run as opposed to Volrath's Stronghold. They do the same job of winning the game. Wolf Run simply does it faster and more efficiently without being further exposed to graveyard hate. In short, stay away from Recurring Nightmare outside of Rector lists. "

[HoneyT]

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?

The deck can only realistically support 2 colorless lands and Wolf Run is better.

Don't get me wrong, Stronghold is powerful and provides a source of inevitability in the late game. However, Wolf Run provides that same inevitability by turning all your creatures into fireballs. It's less durdle-y and closes the game out much faster and does so without being further exposed to graveyard hate.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well, despite selling my collection a week or so ago to pay for bills, I'm still addicted to this archetype and will probably be slowly but surely building it again.

This time however, I'm going straight for Junk over BUG and thinking of incorporating either Iname, Death Aspect or Buried Alive to super-charge the deck with Bloodghast when I need to be the aggro (i.e. combo, Miracles, possibly mirror).

A list I've been toying around with today:

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
1 Karmic Guide
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Buried Alive
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Council's Judgment
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

15 Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bloodghast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
3 Toxic Deluge

I start with Bloodghasts in the side simply because they don't provide any value at all on their own. Also debating on Yosei v. Kokusho (combo hates having to race against a life advantage, but Miracles hates being locked out of mana, or so I imagine) and Iname, District Attorney v. Buried Alive (body v. speed).

[Ralf]

I compiled my results for the last weekly tournaments I attended in which I took two 1st place using Junk Pod:

2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
1-2 vs. BUG Pod
2-1 vs. Oops all Spells
2-1 vs. Punishing Jund

2-0 vs. Nic Fit
2-1 vs. Deathblade
2-0 vs. Team America

I used the same list I posted a few pages back with the same SB. I played 4 DRS, 3 Explorers, and no BoP. Sigarda (with and without Jitte) won almost every single game... Entomber Exarch saw some play but is still quite weak. I think I will replace him with either a 22nd land or the 4th explorer as I don't really need three 4-drops to gloom over my starting hand and both my 5-drops are accessible through GSZ.

You could consider Timbermare to replace Entomber Exarch ?

[Jizz]

Hello,

I m not an expert player of the deck. I was wondering what was your gameplan against Cloudpost ? Any Sideboard card that could be good against them ?

Thanks

[MrIggins]

Hello,

I m not an expert player of the deck. I was wondering what was your gameplan against Cloudpost ? Any Sideboard card that could be good against them ?

Thanks

Usually you just lose, honestly. I've played the matchup a couple times with Scape and it is really really bad. Even the scapeshift kill is hard to pull off since they can Crop Rotate for Glacial Chasm with triggers on the stack and then you get to sit there until you get space monstered out of the game. One of the strengths of Nic Fit is that you get to go bigger than your opponent and outclass their cards. 12-post is one of the few decks that gets to do that to us. One does not simply outclass a hardcast Emrakul. Killing them the fair way is probably harder for us than it is for the fair decks that they already beat. We do not have Wasteland to buy time, we do not have 1-mana 3/2s, what we have is a bunch of 1/1s and some 4- and 5-drops that are too slow to matter to the deck. I would not bother sideboarding for this matchup unless you inhabit a strange metagame (in which case you should probably play something else) or you decide to try out that Blood Moon tech that was mentioned a few pages ago.

[Tom4ik]

@Jizz - What version are you playing? I play the pfire version and I run 2 SB blood moons to deal with my Lands matchup. I assume 12 post would be similar. I really only bring them in as a "nuclear" type card because it turns off the groves and the wolf run as well as a fair amount of the rest of the lands. I actually only run 6 basics.

[Arianrhod]

If you are forced to exist within a 12-post heavy metagame, I would recommend siding 3-4 -heavy- land hate options. I wouldn't bother with Blood Moon vs them -- it's much more effective against Lands, whereas more powerful options like Sowing Salt, for example, isn't very good against Lands at all but is a knockout vs 12post. From the Ashes is another hard-hitting option.

Basically, if you want to effectively defeat 12post, you need to buckle down and dedicate a lot of slots to serious land hate. To be fair, Nic Fit -can- do this. The problem is that these slots are basically dead against everything else, and you need to eat up 3-5 total slots with them to reliably win the matchup, which makes your other matchups very weak.

[jbone2016]

Had another small tourney at Saturday with good results
Beat miracles in 1. Yes, 1. 40 minutes. Highlights included having a Thragtusk in play three times (twice after a terminus). Me digging for a creature to sac to a diabolic intent for a deed to kill a miracled entreat for 7. Won by decaying a token while he attacked with 2 of the 3 angels, one left back to block a thrun.

Beat B/G Storm (forget the name) in 3.
Game 1. We both mull to 5. I don't see a 2nd land until turn 3 or 4. I get stormed out.
Game 2. I keep a hand with disruption and win fairly easily.
Game 3. I have a decent hand with a therapy but no Mindbreak. He attempts to go off turn one with a summoner's pact and whiffs.

Beat U/R omni-tell
Game 1. Opponent gets stuck on land while I execute the 1/1 beats with a canonist.
Game 2. I get blood mooned and then FSMed.
Game 3. I get a rector out...he decides to echoing truth it back to my hand. I replay it. He blood moons me again. and FSM's me....and humility comes out. Humility for me vs 5 land and a blood moon for him. He hard casts Omni. and we play cripple fight for a while. I get a top in play and end up getting some 1/1's then batterskull in play and win.

Drew with Reanimator.

Lost to Mud in top 4.
Blew the board a couple of times but he recovered.
2nd game: On the play I name chalice of the void. He rips....a chalice for one. I never recover.

[Jizz]

I play a Wasteless control deck that isn't Miracle and the match up vs Cloudpost is as bad as yours. Thanks for your tips. I ended up adding Ruination to my sideboard, even though I play few basics. Bloodmoon can be answered by both Lands and Cloudpost (repeal, decay, etc..). Sowing salt is also a nice one.

[Arianrhod]

I play a Wasteless control deck that isn't Miracle and the match up vs Cloudpost is as bad as yours. Thanks for your tips. I ended up adding Ruination to my sideboard, even though I play few basics. Bloodmoon can be answered by both Lands and Cloudpost (repeal, decay, etc..)

It somewhat depends on the deck in general. Blood Moon is answerable, yes. But it usually makes the opposing deck jump through a few hoops in order to answer it. It buys at least a couple of turns, in which time you may be able to slam the door. This is a little easier with Nic Fit than most control decks, but your mileage may vary. If you can effectively pressure (either by life total, deck control [slaughter games, etc], counter-control [venser/karakas lock once moon is solved], or etc) the opponent while they durdle trying to answer the Moon, it's good enough.

If you're not confidant in your ability to do this, From the Ashes / Ruination is your best bet. You just have to try to play around it. Maybe add a couple of mana rocks to help with losing your own lands? It's not like control decks are ever opposed to mana sources.

[Tom4ik]

If your main concern is 12-post then blood moon is not the absolute best card to use. I for some reason have multiple lands players (typically 2-4) at any given weekly (usually about 20-25 players) and I believe blood moon is more effective at that match-up. I also bring it in against any deck packing the depths combo as my deck literally has now answer to that aside from soaking the hit and winning on the crack back.

I think that blood moon can be more applicable than some of the other options (the land destruction spells) but to be honest I havent run any since I used to play tsunami in my board back when I played GB only version.

@jizz how many basics are you playing?

[benofzongo]

Hey jbone, I tried a variant of your list at the LGS and found it to be a lot of fun: much more explosive/aggressive than the more grindy punishing fit list I usually run. I went 3-1, losing to elves in 3 games. Most of my problem is lack of experience, but I'm wondering if there are particular tools/strategies you've found to be useful against elves? Do you wish for ethersworn canonist? Are surgical extractions ever good against elves? What else might be useful? (anyone is welcome to chime in, as indicated in the title the list is a BGW list that runs stoneforge, a living wish package, and no rector or pod)

[jbone2016]

Hey jbone, I tried a variant of your list at the LGS and found it to be a lot of fun: much more explosive/aggressive than the more grindy punishing fit list I usually run. I went 3-1, losing to elves in 3 games. Most of my problem is lack of experience, but I'm wondering if there are particular tools/strategies you've found to be useful against elves? Do you wish for ethersworn canonist? Are surgical extractions ever good against elves? What else might be useful? (anyone is welcome to chime in, as indicated in the title the list is a BGW list that runs stoneforge, a living wish package, and no rector or pod)

Ari had a good post about the matchup vs elves.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=824529&viewfull=1#post824529

my take: Humility and Batterskull is very good vs. Elves. Deeds and deluges are awesome. Plague is reasonable. Canonist is a good wish target. I usually board in the revoker. Surgicals seem lousy vs. elves.

[benofzongo]

Haha, I realized my list is actually from jobdevries...just to give credit where due (jbone's has the rectors right?). Anyways, thanks for the tips.

[Arianrhod]

My latest Rector list actually sports a positive Elves matchup for the first time amongst any of my Nic Fit decks, I think. All it took was (in my opinion) gross over-reacting:

maindeck things that interact with them:

3 Deed
1 Deluge
2 Swords
2 Decay
2 Judgment
1 Teeg (+3 Zenith)

sb:

2 Seize
2 Mindcensor
2 Canonist
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Plague
1 Rule of Law

That's 20 cards that interact with Elves, gentlemen. It takes having 20 goddamn cards before I feel like I actually have a good matchup there. Now admittedly very little of that is expressly -for- Elves....most of it is for other combo decks (or other fair decks) and Elves just gets caught in the middle. But still.

[Tom4ik]

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

[Arianrhod]

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

Largely untested (I've been focusing on Rector mostly), but here's something to get you started thinking:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Cranial Extraction

[HoneyT]

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

I'll try and post mine later tonight as well.

[iamajellydonut]

Heyooo

So, I've been looking at Nic Fit as a deck I'd be interested in tossing together, but nearly all of the lists of course employ various cute tricks and most of those cute tricks bore me. Does anyone have more of a straightforward trick-free "fair" build they wouldn't mind showing?

[Tom4ik]

I play a punishing fire list that is as "trick free" as I can get it. I think the hard part is that in order to take advantage of the veteran explorer trigger you need to play smth like punishing fire or scapshift that takes advantage of having lands in play. OR you need to play larger costed cards (otherwise why waste space on ramp) which when compared to most legacy threats seem "cute".

[Bobmans]

nearly all of the lists of course employ various cute tricks and most of those cute tricks bore me. Does anyone have more of a straightforward trick-free "fair" build they wouldn't mind showing?

Cute tricks bore you and straight forward not? :-P

Anyway, i think you should look into the JUND coloured versions of the deck:

Scapewish (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63982) -> Pretty straight forward midrange combo deck that wins out of a single Scapeshift cast (along side Valakut, the molten pinnacle) that has various lines of play thru big creatures such as Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the fells or Primeval Titan and nasty sideboard cards such as Slaughter Games which are accesible with Burning Wish.

Punishing Fire Nic Fit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=822888&viewfull=1#post822888) -> Also JUND coloured and has a kind of grindy gameplay where cards like Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed control the board and a big creature (like the ones mentioned) finishes the job.

JUNK Stoneforge (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=821737&viewfull=1#post821737) -> Another pretty straight forward list is the JUNK coloured list from Jobdevries mentioned earlier. This list involves Stoneforge Mystic, Lingering Souls and Living Wish alongside the regular Nic Fit package to even ramp into an equipped Sigarda, Host of Herons

Here is a small piece writen by Arianrhod about the current directions of Nic Fit: Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=815401&viewfull=1#post815401)

[iamajellydonut]

I play a punishing fire list that is as "trick free" as I can get it. I think the hard part is that in order to take advantage of the veteran explorer trigger you need to play smth like punishing fire or scapshift that takes advantage of having lands in play. OR you need to play larger costed cards (otherwise why waste space on ramp) which when compared to most legacy threats seem "cute".

I'm all a fan of neat effects and great synergies which is why I'm looking at this deck in the first place, but no matter the list I look at, the pinnacle of innovation as to how to burn that mana inevitably boils down to "Thragtusk" or some other piece of shit that's unnecessary and not as good as some other options. Either that or some roundabout combo with too many pieces that fails to itself more often than not. Scapshift is intriguing, but I like lists that can naturally burn the mana rather than lists that force themselves to burn the mana. For example BUG. Baleful Strix is essentially the perfect mana burner and card advantage.

[Bobmans]

I'm all a fan of neat effects and great synergies which is why I'm looking at this deck in the first place, but no matter the list I look at, the pinnacle of innovation as to how to burn that mana inevitably boils down to "Thragtusk" or some other piece of shit that's unnecessary and not as good as some other options. Either that or some roundabout combo with too many pieces that fails to itself more often than not. Scapshift is intriguing, but I like lists that can naturally burn the mana rather than lists that force themselves to burn the mana. For example BUG. Baleful Strix is essentially the perfect mana burner and card advantage.

In that case you might be searching for a BUG Planeswalker version of Nic Fit. There is a list by McDarby, called the McDarby Special or Veteran Walkers. Shouldn't be hard to find on Google.

Also there was a list by Ralf in the BUG Control section a while ago: list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=823217&viewfull=1#post823217)
I tuned it a bit, but never tested it. I removed the GSZ creature package which you don't like (Thragtusk).

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Eternal Witness
3 Baleful Strix
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Innocent Blood
4 Brainstorm
3 Negate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers

[Arianrhod]

@Jellydonut: you probably want either BUG Walkers (I would squeeze in a copy of Future Sight), or some variety of a rockish white list -- Baneslayer and Sigarda are potent beatsticks.

You'll understand in time why Thragtusk has the slot that he does.

[Tom4ik]

My punishing fire list has a GSZ "package" of vet, scooze, witness, thrun, huntmaster, tusk and prime time. Thats as small as I can reasonably make it. I also dont like the "toolbox" style of pod. I have always hovered on the edge of cutting ooze, huntmaster, and tusk but seem to every week find that they are surprisingly effective. I do know they seem terrible when you look at them in a vacuum but in actual game play they work out great.

My way of trying to build and play the pfire version is less of a nic fit deck that wants to have many options for all situations but of trying to assemble the same cards every game (liliana, deed and 1 threat usually) which is why I am interested in a BUG version. Running Deed + Liliy + fire means you are basically pre sideboarded against creature decks but at a terrible game 1 against most combo as well as U/w control decks. I still believe that of all the lists I have seen the fire list would match up the best at a large event like an SCG but I havent seen them. My meta is also starting to shift the dial back to combo decks. ( I saw multiple Omni show mirrors the last time) So it is either look into a heavier discard package and BUG version with some md Fow or set this deck on the back burner for a bit.

BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

[Arianrhod]

My punishing fire list has a GSZ "package" of vet, scooze, witness, thrun, huntmaster, tusk and prime time. Thats as small as I can reasonably make it. I also dont like the "toolbox" style of pod. I have always hovered on the edge of cutting ooze, huntmaster, and tusk but seem to every week find that they are surprisingly effective. I do know they seem terrible when you look at them in a vacuum but in actual game play they work out great.

My way of trying to build and play the pfire version is less of a nic fit deck that wants to have many options for all situations but of trying to assemble the same cards every game (liliana, deed and 1 threat usually) which is why I am interested in a BUG version. Running Deed + Liliy + fire means you are basically pre sideboarded against creature decks but at a terrible game 1 against most combo as well as U/w control decks. I still believe that of all the lists I have seen the fire list would match up the best at a large event like an SCG but I havent seen them. My meta is also starting to shift the dial back to combo decks. ( I saw multiple Omni show mirrors the last time) So it is either look into a heavier discard package and BUG version with some md Fow or set this deck on the back burner for a bit.

BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

Haven't seen it yet, going to go try to hunt it down now.

Edit -- Can't find it anywhere, can you link me?

[Tom4ik]

http://themeadery.org/articles/leaving-legacy-for-a-modern-mistress

[iamajellydonut]

You'll understand in time why Thragtusk has the slot that he does.

I don't mind Green Sun's Zenith. I actually love Green Sun's Zenith and find it to be one of the best cards of modern Legacy, but I find the powerplay of "big-efficient-green-get-there" to be completely unintuitive. Yes, I understand why Thragtusk is there. However, I also know why I don't want him. If the deciding factor between me winning or losing the game comes down to landing or not landing a Thragtusk, I am doing it wrong. There's no reason you can't have a gross amount of mana and still be able to spend it on a balanced breakfast.


BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

This conversation has no reason to be here. There are two existing threads for it. If you want to discuss it, bring it there.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28402-Article-North-American-Defeatism-and-the-Dominance-of-Brainstorm

[Tom4ik]

The main idea behind Thragtusk is that it doesnt matter what you GSZ for as a finisher. By the time you are sunning for smth to win with the game is usually decided. In most fire lists you lock down the board to such an extent that winning with witness/veteran beats is acceptable. I understand where you are at because I also feel like paying 5 mana for a Tusk in Legacy is not where you want to be when you look at other more efficient cards. But it is a card that serves multiple purposes.

I think smth that might help us better brainstorm a list with you is could be "What do you WANT to be casting?". IF you want to be playing GSZ what do you want to be grabbing? IF you want to be playing Jace, WHAT do you want the shell around him to be?

[Arianrhod]

http://themeadery.org/articles/leaving-legacy-for-a-modern-mistress

Thanks.

I guess the problem that I have with his logic is that Brainstorm, by itself, is useless. We've talked about this at least briefly in this very thread in the past. Putting Brainstorm in most builds of Nic Fit simply isn't viable because of space concerns.

Consider that Brainstorm is card equity. You spend 1 card, put 2 back, and 3 draw: 3-for-3. Now, this is obviously metered by shuffle effects (virtual CA), by the power of putting back something you'll fetch for (Batterskull, entomb targets, etc), and so forth -- but, at the end of the day, Brainstorm is still just a cantrip. It's only as good as the cards that you draw.

In vintage, it's frequently (usually) correct to neglect to Force of Will Ancestral. If you have Misstep, that's fine, but it's widely regarded as a misplay to Force Recall. What are those three cards? Land, land, mox? Nice draw3.

Your average Delver deck has something like this for the core:

4 Delver
2 [1-drop creature]
4 [2-drop creature]

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

That's THIRTY cards. Of these 30, only 6-10 actively win you the game. The rest is all "consistency." Yes, filtering and tutoring are important -- but to say that you simply can't compete because the blue decks are more consistent seems like a really poor call since so many of their cards are do nothings in the name of that consistency.

Delver typically runs 18 lands. They crutch on their cantrips to hit land drops, which in turn anti-tempos them. Sometimes they just get blown out by a wasteland on their 1-lander and die.

........

I guess that what I'm trying to say is this:

Sometimes, the blue deck will win because they're more consistent. Sometimes, they'll get Wastelanded and die. Sometimes, they'll bury you in virtual CA via shuffles and tutors. Sometimes, they'll draw a million cantrips and fail to actually find anything to kill you with.

Variance exists no matter what deck you're playing. All you're doing by playing Delver is shifting the variance from one axis to another.

I find the idea that you can't make nonblue decks as consistent/powerful as the blue ones somewhat offensive, personally, and I think that his view that legacy is bad because blue vs nonblue is somewhat childish when you consider that every goddamn format is that way.

I dunno. I used to have a lot of respect for Jeff. I still do, in a way. But ever since he went on a hot streak and became high-profile, the man's incessant whining and bitching gets on my nerves. This is the world we live in. Complaining about it won't make it go away. I bitched internally for a long time about Sneak and Show, and then I got sick enough of losing to it that I maindecked some Slaughter Games -- and hey, suddenly they're the ones who were afraid of playing me instead of the other way around. There's always an answer for everything. It just involves working hard enough to find it, and being willing enough to implement it.

[Tom4ik]

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

[Arianrhod]

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

I figured that's where you were going, but I'm not afraid to chime in my 2c on most topics. I think everyone here is aware of my thoughts on how the Nic Fit thread is kind of its own community inside of Source.

As you mentioned, we do these things:

1) Top
2) Zenith

Some also do these:

3) Jace (and other planeswalkers)
4) 2-for-1 ++ based creatures and cards
5) Actual card advantage (why cantrip when you can just draw all of them): see also Future Sight
6) Wish boards [Burning, Living; maybe Cunning?]

Finally, we have one more thing that I want to talk about a bit more:

7) Redundancy of power

Consider Rector's 5-drops and 6-drops.

2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith*wildcard
3 Sensei's Top

That's 12 cards that are haymakers against most decks. They're all slightly different in their applications and purposes, but they're all win conditions or they all find win conditions.

Compare to UWR Delver

1 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

That's 13 cards....of which 4 are squires and 8 are useless without shuffles. Exactly 1 of these 13 cards is an actual threat. The tradeoff is mana efficiency. UWR's lone Batterskull vs Rector's 6 five/six drops [not counting Zeniths/Tops].

The instability from Nic Fit's side comes from the ramp engines. If our ramp doesn't happen, then the 1-of Batterskull is going to be found and going to come down a lot quicker than a Baneslayer will. This is why the single greatest thing that could ever happen for Nic Fit would be a modal ramp spell. IE, if Golgari Charm had Rampant Growth as a mode. Right now, all of the ramp options are fairly underwhelming by themselves. Ponder is a lot more useful on turn 10 than a Wood Elves is -- despite the fact that Wood Elves can actually win a game while Ponder technically can't.

I'm not sure how much sense that actually made. I'll think about it for a little while and then if people are confused I'll rephrase.

[iamajellydonut]

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

That is an understandable discussion. It's just that when you brought up the article it made me scared.

Anyway, I think the reason Brainstorm typically isn't associated with Nic Fit is simply because Nic Fit doesn't as commonly run blue. I have limited experience with Nic Fit itself, but I have played against it and one of my biggest fears and why I'm asking these questions about "is fattie the best route" is because it's easy to get your hand sandbagged by shit. If you get a fistful of land and Veteran Explorer, it doesn't matter if you Green Sun's Zenith for Progenitus. You're still pretty boned. The deck as it stands has a lot of cards that lean on other cards to keep them not shitty. Of course, Brainstorm being capped at 4x doesn't mean your hands are cured, but it still makes a world of a difference. Even for minor nuisances that are true of many decks like naturally opening with Dryad Arbor in your hand. You're effectively short a card. It's not a "worse" card or "well, I wish I had not drawn this but...". A Dryad Arbor in your hand is a completely dead card. In an age where one card can often be the difference between winning and losing, Brainstorm works wonders.

Here's what I was thinking for a list. I'm at work (I have more spare time here than I do at home) which means I don't have any of my existing stuff on-hand, but here's what I was thinking for a Nic Fit-esque list. It's largely based off of an existing list I'm doing with Nic Fit stuff crammed in for a draft. Probably the first thing you'll notice is that Veteran Explorer is not maxed. Reason being that I want it to be an option rather than something closer to a requirement. I understand that the deck doesn't necessarily "require" Veteran Explorer, but I do know that the deck is a whole hell of a lot worse when one doesn't resolve and die. So, without further adieu, the amalgamation from memory and theory...

23xLand
1xCity of Traitors
1xCreeping Tar Pit

16xCreatures
2xDark Confidant
1xTarmogoyf
2xVeteran Explorer
3xBaleful Strix
4xDeathrite Shaman
1xGaddock Teeg
3xSuper Secret Tech

22xOther Spells
4xBrainstorm
1xJace, the Mind Sculptor
2xCabal Therapy
3xLiliana of the Veil
4xThoughtseize
1xGarruk Wildspeaker
2xGreen Sun's Zenith
1xSylvan Library
3xAbrupt Decay


It's a very rough list. Much of what would be considered "core", including Force of Wills, are missing. Vendilion Clique, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, one Inquisition of Kozilek, a few Spell Pierces, and maybe Disfigures are the top "would like to haves". Also Dryad Arbor, but I feel that the Arbor is more a reflex of "I have GSZ, therefore" than an actual necessity. Otherwise, the list is pretty close to what I would like to see.

[Tom4ik]

@Arianrhod I have some thoughts on the ramp side of things as well. I'll try to post smth about that tonight

@Jellydonut - That list looks interesting but some card choices that stand out to me-
- City of traitors over Ancient Tomb seems odd, one of the strongest plays you could do would be turn 1 vet into cabal or deathrite into sol land. If you want to maximize the turn 2 Jace, Garruk or GSZ (and those would be even more strong off the double cabal line as you clear the way to drop the walker) the life is going to be less important than the fact that you might have to lose a land. If this is the type of opening you really want I would also go up to 3 sol lands prob in a 2/1 config.
- I know you want vet as an option but one of the main benefits of this archtype is the cabal/vet interaction which in this case seems smth you would like to maximize in order to get the 4 mana turn 2 or 3 in wich case you can can a drop and another discard or bstorm effect.
- I think instead of the single goyf you would get more milage out of a scavenging ooze in the 2 spot. Goyf for 3 mana off a gsz is much less interesting than at 2.
- I would up your Jace count. with your ability to dump a bunch of dorks onto the board to protect a Jace I think we defiantely would want to have more than 1. If you were thinking of it more as a Fact or fiction with additional upside thats fine. But this list seems to me to be smth where you want 3.
- I would replace sylvan with confidant if that is the effect you want. The body is good if you go on the aggro plan, you have sac outlets for it, and it can chump for your walkers if need be.

I have no idea how this deck plays out so those are some thoughts on the rough list.

[benofzongo]

I'm pretty much a noob with this deck, but I think that besides the Explorer/Therapy interaction, the other "core" way the deck exploits ramping is with pernicious deed: a card that is completely bonkers because our permanents are high cmc. That's why usually you don't see much in the way of confidants or goyfs in this deck, and also why Donut's list looks more like a "Big BUG" midrange deck to me than nic fit. If you dump deed and curve out at 4 cmc, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to lean on things like deathrite for your ramp (edit: which I guess you are doing already...reading ftw)...although I did once try out a BG nic fit deck that topped out with obliterators and abyssal persecutors at 4 cmc (it wasn't very good, but it was certainly playable), so what do I know.

[iamajellydonut]

- City of traitors over Ancient Tomb seems odd, one of the strongest plays you could do would be turn 1 vet into cabal or deathrite into sol land. If you want to maximize the turn 2 Jace, Garruk or GSZ (and those would be even more strong off the double cabal line as you clear the way to drop the walker) the life is going to be less important than the fact that you might have to lose a land. If this is the type of opening you really want I would also go up to 3 sol lands prob in a 2/1 config.

It doesn't really matter City of Traitors vs. Ancient Tomb. I just instinctively chose City of Traitors out of old deck building habits. With excessive amounts of Garruks, the choice is relevant which is where the habit was formed. Good ol' Death Cloud. Anyway, without (more) Garruks, the choice doesn't really matter as much, but I still choose City of Traitors. Four life is four life. Or more. And, as is true of many decks, the Sol Land doesn't need to stick around. Two turns with a pseudo-Lotus is usually more than enough.

As to the count of City of Traitors, it's the same reasoning as the low count of Veteran Explorer. Options. The deck can run without City of Traitors just fine, but does serious work when it does see a Sol Land. Conversely, if you see more than one at any time ever, you're gonna have a bad time. Same with Jace here. Despite being "steal your wife" good, the plan had a blue minority and significant basics, I wasn't sure of how consistently I could drop Jace. Deathrite Shaman is 4x. Thoughtseize is 4x. Brainstorm, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Strix etc. The list has a decent core, but between GSZ and enough dig it also has about a great amount of options.

Unfortunately, all this is kind of moot. I ground out the concept yesterday both against friends and pubs on the great program of shit. It was bad. Not awful like "oh my god I can't believe this junk" and the plan did work a good amount of the time, but as I cleaned up the list I just kept wanting to cut Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. As cute as they are and as fun as they can be, stuff like Ponder and more "oompf" just make for a better deck. One exceptionally fun thing I did try was maxed out Explorer/Therapy with 3xGitaxian Probe, 4xBrainstorm, and 4xPonder. Holy fucking hell was it fun, but with so many cards dedicated to dig and tricks it didn't have enough options to actually win.

Aaanyway, thanks for you guys' time and insight. Back to my standard BUG+GSZ brewing. At least it was cool to work on something else for a bit and it gave me an excuse to use Baleful Strix

[Arianrhod]

This is going to be delving into theoretical territory, for which I apologize in advanced. However, I think it's an illuminating topic and needs some exploration. As always, this will be in specific examination of / as applies to Nic Fit -- other decks might derive some value from the discussion, but Nic Fit's unique mana production capabilities allow for us to take better advantage of a variety of cards that are too expensive for the average deck.

What is stronger: draw or tutor?

I think that, with regards to the Brainstorm debate, this is the real question / the real sticking point wherein I have a problem with Brainstorm.

I'll be using Vintage examples here, since Brainstorm is a "strictly worse" Ancestral Recall except in decks like Oath of Druids, Reanimator, and suchlike.

Ancestral Recall draws 3 cards for a single blue mana at instant speed.
vs
Demonic Tutor searches for 1 card for 1B at sorcery speed.

I will make a series of assertions:

-) Recall is better for tempo decks, because they have less mana to blow on more expensive options.
-) DTutor is better for "ramp" (big blue, storm) decks, because it allows you to search for exactly the card you want at the cost of it being more expensive.
-) Recall is better for decks with a lot of 1-for-1s, since it lets them refill over their opponent.
-) DTutor is better for decks with a lot of x-for-1s, since you'll already be up in CA/vCA and can search for something to hammer the coffin.

Let's extrapolate.

In a world in which both Recall and DTutor are legal in legacy, which would we run? (Note: the correct answer is likely BUG with both, but let's assume you can only run one or the other in the interests for fairness)

Recall draws 3 cards. The contents of these cards are likely random (if we have Recall, we probably only run a singleton Top). If you're being pressured by a Mongoose or a Delver, you need these 3 cards to be either an answer or business. It's safe to assume that you have a fair amount of lands (5-7), a lowish life total (8-12), and the opponent is running low on resources (probably already had to Force / Daze / etc problem cards).

This is variance. The 3 cards you draw with this Recall will likely make the game, because afterwards the Delver player will likely have interaction again. Or maybe he just has a pair of Bolts and you're dead next turn. You could draw land, Vet, Therapy. You could draw StP, Decay, Baneslayer. You could draw a Thragtusk, or a Zenith. You could draw into another Recall and chain them, but then be short on mana to cast something that actually matters. It's anyone's guess. You are at the mercy of your deck -- Recall is, after all, only as strong as the cards in your deck that you are drawing.

DTutor searches for exactly the card you want at any point. Losing to Delver? Search for Decay. Losing to mana screw? It can be a rampant growth. Your opponent just tutored Batterskull with SFM? It can be a Cabal Therapy.

This is skill testing. Your decision about what to Tutor at any given point in the game will shape how the game plays out. In Vintage, you have complete control of the game when DTutor resolves. You can choose to get business and be aggressive (Tinker, Will, etc), or you can be defensive and get protection (FoW, Drain, Flusterstorm, etc). It all depends on the board state, your hand, your opponent's deck, your opponent, and how you want the game to be shaped.

I'll go a level deeper.

I have argued that Demonic Tutor is a more powerful card than Ancestral Recall, and I will extrapolate from this that the correct way to solve Brainstorm matchups in legacy is to run more Tutors.

Now, what the problem with Tutors, other than that they are often banned (Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, and Imperial Seal are all nixed)?

They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

Incidentally, this is why Careful Study and Faithless Looting are horrid cards in all circumstances where they aren't being abused (Reanimator, Dredge). You're trading card advantage for 2 random cards. Where Recall is a +2, Study is a -1. The vaunted Brainstorm is only a 0, before you factor in vCA.

So in order for Tutors to be worth it (ignoring the mana problem for now), what you are tutoring for either has to keep you in the game, or it has to put you ahead somehow. If you DTutor for a Deed to wrath your opponent's 2x Delver 1x Mongoose board, you're +1 on the deal: (DTutor + Deed) vs (Delver + Delver + Goose). You're also not dying next turn. If you DTutor for, say, an Elspeth Knight-Errant on an open board, you're at parity: (DTutor + Elspeth) vs (Soldier token + ongoing threat).

The problem with this last example is one of mana efficiency. Say your opponent untaps and rips a Pulse off the top, nuking Elspeth. You spent 6 mana for a 1/1 + one of your opponent's Maelstrom Pulses. You're technically still at 0 CA on the deal, and you're left with a miniscule amount of board state, but you also traded 6 mana spent for 3 mana spent. I believe this is the reason that Tutors are rarely seen in legacy, despite a number of them being legal. It's easy to Tutor something up, but it's arguably even easier to answer whatever is Tutored, either via a counterspell (-1) or a removal spell (also -1, unless it's a walker, in which 0).

Whatever you Tutor for, therefore, must be resilient and threatening. This is why Sigarda is perhaps the single most devastating Zenith target in all of Nic Fit if not all of Magic. She's damn near invincible once she's in play. Terminus is the only commonly played card that she loses to. Your opponent can't just go Swords it and achieve parity: (Zenith + Sigarda) vs (StP + 5 life=1.67Time).

Consider another example: Future Sight. If you Tutor up and slam Future Sight, you might be lucky enough to have something cheap to play off the top, or possibly a land. Let's assume you don't: (Tutor + Future) vs (nothing) = -2. You've spent 2 cards and failed to impact the game state. However, if you untap with an active Future Sight, you're probably going to be able to play on average 3 or 4 extra cards off the top. After -one- turn of untapping with a Future Sight, you're up to at least +2 on the deal. And it only goes further nuts from there. Yeah it could get Pulsed or CJ'd or some such, but that's an unlikely turn of events if we're being honest. That class of card isn't commonly played as more than a 1- or 2-of, and they'll have enough other things that they'll need to use them on that they may hesitate with something like Future Sight.

Now, let's consider the Tutors themselves. Of this entire class of card, here they are:

Topdeck Tutors
Enlightened Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Personal Tutor
Cruel Tutor
Liliana Vess

To-Hand Tutors
Diabolic Intent
Infernal Tutor
Grim Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Rhystic Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Night Dealings
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Diabolic Revelation
Rune-Scarred Demon

There are a variety of other, lesser tutors (like all of the Transmute cards) that I didn't deem worthy of any level of discussion.

The topdeck Tutors are an awkward class of card, and are usually only good enough if they are instant speed or if you have a Top in play. Of this class, Enlightened sees the most play as a means of fetching powerful sideboard bullets. Cruel Tutor is reasonable (3-drop Imperial Seal), but being a topdeck tutor, there is little if any reason to run it over Grim Tutor. Liliana Vess is the most reasonable option, since she can effectively double tutor if left to her own devices. However, I view the class of topdeck tutors not sufficient for their desired purpose.

Diabolic Intent is a card that we have played to varying levels of success in varying builds of Nic Fit. The problem with Intent is that it requires a sacrifice, which can sometimes be awkward even for Nic Fit. That being said, Intent is definitely the most powerful tutoring option, even if it has perhaps the steepest drawback. Not counting the sacrifice, it is actual Demonic Tutor.

Infernal Tutor sees a lot of play in Storm decks, where it combos with Lion's Eye Diamond to empty the player's hand. The issue here is that you must have an empty hand in order for this card to even function. While this is attainable with Liliana of the Veil, it also removes your ability to interact at the hope of your opponent also being without interaction. I've discussed many times why I dislike Liliana of the Veil in most Nic Fit decks, and will shelve this aspect of the discussion for that reason.

Grim Tutor is a reasonable option. The drawback with Grim Tutor is that it comes at the cost of 3 life = 1 turn. You are basically trading a turn of your life for a card. The issue with this as an option is that paying 3 life is substantially awkward in a Delver-heavy metagame. Awkwardly enough, this Tutor is probably a sideboard option at best -- there are matchups where it will shine, and others where it will only accelerate your demise.

Idyllic is solid but uninspiring because of its expense and restriction. I had my eye on this one in case any of the enchantment creatures ended up being nutso, but we didn't get anything worth consideration.

Rhystic Tutor is...uhhh...weird. Early on in the game it could actually be quite powerful....or following a Tsunami. However, it fails the lategame test (what do I do if I topdeck this on turn 10).

Beseech is a strong contender, imo. At "official" cmc=6, the card all but dodges Counterbalance. Triple black is hard, but functional with the assistance of Urborg -- alternatively, we can just pay 2BB for it. I would actually rank Beseech higher than Diabolic Tutor because of the fact that it dodges most Counterbalance flips. The number of lands restriction is slightly awkward, but at the same time, we vomit so many lands in play that it's likely a non-issue.

Night Dealings is a very strange bird. It ramps counters quickly -- a single hit from something like a Sigarda will allow you to pay 2BB to tutor for a cmc5 or less. TNN will allow you to search for a 3 drop after one hit. Etc. Furthermore, it doesn't sacrifice itself after being used. You can tutor, swing, put more counters on it, and tutor again. Over a couple of turns, this thing actually adds up to be +ca. It is, however, very expensive, and also fails to impact the board by itself at all. I wish it gained like a theft counter per turn passively or something.

Topping the curve is Collusion, RSD, and Revelation. Revelation can tutor for as many cards as you have mana to pour into it, which means that if it resolves, you're probably +ca. RSD is a 6/6 flyer in addition to a tutor, so you're +ca on him as well. Collusion has buyback, but unless you design your deck around it, you're probably not going to want to use it. RSD and Revelation's problem is that they cost 7 mana to be a +1.

Conclusions:

Worth at least considering when deckbuilding:
Diabolic Intent
Grim Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Night Dealings???
RSD
Diabolic Revelation

I firmly believe that if you want to defeat Brainstorm, running more copies of the above cards will help. In the long run, DTutor is better than Recall. It's just a matter of making sure that your deck is capable of supporting the power that tutors bring.

[iamajellydonut]

It's safe to assume that you have a fair amount of lands (5-7)

This is not a great basis for any scenario.

Anyway, the answer to "which is stronger draw or tutor" is "it depends". Legacy is filled with many tutors and many draw spells and many cards that provide card advantage, but all of them are conditional. If you're building a deck and having to decide between Green Sun's Zenith, Thirst for Knowledge, and Enlightened Tutor, you're building a really shitty deck. All of them are fantastic, but none of them can be compared with each other, and it pretty much works that way for all of Legacy except for the overcosted universal tutors. So, I really don't see what discussion's possible with regards to this subject.

As for your irrelevant scenario of Ancestral Recall vs Demonic Tutor, the answer is Ancestral Recall. It's not even slightly close to being a contest unless you're playing combo. It's... Jesus Christ it's three cards for one mana. God forbid you draw into another Ancestral Recall and get five cards for Demonic Tutor's one. Hell, you might even draw into a Green Sun's Zenith and tutor up what you wanted anyway for the same amount of mana. Ancestral Recall is such the better card. If you were in a bad position in Legacy and suddenly got three more cards in your hand and still couldn't do anything, you were pretty fucked from the start.


They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

Incidentally, this is why Careful Study and Faithless Looting are horrid cards in all circumstances where they aren't being abused

Careful Study and Faithless Looting are card disadvantage because the net result is -1 card. Demonic Tutor does not even remotely begin to enter the realm of card advantage or disadvantage. Even though you use two cards, you are not down or up cards (unless the card you searched for impacts that result). Vampiric Tutor trades card advantage. Demonic Tutor does not.

[tescrin]

k.

What if you run tutor + cantrip?
/end discussion


Look, I'm as non-blue as they come (though I am collecting my blue duals and such in case I ever change my mind ;)) but I should point out that the consistency of cantrips is just like the consistency of Top. All Top is is a 2-mana non-blue cantrip that can stick around instead of drawing. This is why it's powerful, why it's not typically used in blue decks, and the fact that you use Top suggests to me that you're perfectly happy spending slots on cantrips.

The thing is, Brainstorm is better than top a lot of the time; because (especially decks like Nic Fit) have garbage in their hand. A lot of decks don't have hand filters and wizards refuses to print efficient hand filtering outside of blue. Faithless Looting is as close as you get. Personally; I choose non-blue card draw + Top + Liliana. She offers card parity and a "filter" next to other things that draw (Bob for example.)


As an aside; I feel like Bloodgift Demon could be a Nic Fit guy. Flying Bob Demon? Seems usable compared to a lot of things like Doom Engine (really guys? I just pointed out how Grave Titan is better in almost every way and situation.)


EDIT:

They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

You're new to magic aren't you..?
1-for-1 + 1-for-1 is not 2-for-1. You spent 1 card to get a card and 1 card to force the opponent to discard a card. You've spent 3 mana, but 1 card. I don't know how this isn't exceptionally clear.

[Arianrhod]

k.

What if you run tutor + cantrip?
/end discussion


Look, I'm as non-blue as they come (though I am collecting my blue duals and such in case I ever change my mind ;)) but I should point out that the consistency of cantrips is just like the consistency of Top. All Top is is a 2-mana non-blue cantrip that can stick around instead of drawing. This is why it's powerful, why it's not typically used in blue decks, and the fact that you use Top suggests to me that you're perfectly happy spending slots on cantrips.

The thing is, Brainstorm is better than top a lot of the time; because (especially decks like Nic Fit) have garbage in their hand. A lot of decks don't have hand filters and wizards refuses to print efficient hand filtering outside of blue. Faithless Looting is as close as you get. Personally; I choose non-blue card draw + Top + Liliana. She offers card parity and a "filter" next to other things that draw (Bob for example.)


As an aside; I feel like Bloodgift Demon could be a Nic Fit guy. Flying Bob Demon? Seems usable compared to a lot of things like Doom Engine (really guys? I just pointed out how Grave Titan is better in almost every way and situation.)


EDIT:


You're new to magic aren't you..?
1-for-1 + 1-for-1 is not 2-for-1. You spent 1 card to get a card and 1 card to force the opponent to discard a card. You've spent 3 mana, but 1 card. I don't know how this isn't exceptionally clear.

I guarantee you that I've been playing Magic for longer than you have.

And Grave Titan isn't fit to be used as toilet paper. Come back when you have a relevant point to make.

[Tom4ik]

I think that in the discussion of CA vs CA (draw v tutor) is that in a lot of the decks the cards can be very similar that raw count of things matters more than specifics. With most builds of Nic-Fit the cards can be very disparate (very similar to in vintage with the restricted list that yawgs will, timewalk, tinker) that most of the time raw cards are not as important as finding the removal or the threat. The idea of GSZ, or a tutor of like DT is that the card you are getting has to be good enough that you are willing to pay 1-2 mana more for it. So in the same vein wishes are set up as in scapshift the idea of a 3 mana TS is terrible but in certain situations you are willing to pay that mana for it.

One of the reasons I really like nic fit is that you can really build the deck as almost a vintage-esque deck because certain cards are so powerful in specific situations. On turn 10 I would rather have a DT than a Recall because with DT you go and get the EXACT most powerful card in your deck, with recall you may draw the best card, you may draw more CA or you may brick. Is it likely that the recall will fail to be broken, no, but DT will never fail. The card you go an get may but thats not the result of the tutor not working.

The problem with tutors in Nic-Fit is that we already have a super high curve, and the issue is rarely finding productive use of mana, virtually every build has multiple ways of burning it on productive uses. The problem is getting to that point. Having a hand of multiple high costing things is terrible. Its the main reason I like the fire build because it is the best at playing a traditional control game without NEEDING vet. MD TS, lily, decay all provide quality early turns similar to Jund. So this goes back to what Arianrhod says about the ramp besides vet is largely pretty shitty. I do not want to play suboptimal cards to ramp but without the ramp I add more terrible late game cards.

As to the fatty discussion, its pretty minute. It's not which 5 or 6 drop you play to win (there are plenty of strong options) its the fact that you are able to play a 6 drop that means you are going to win.

[tescrin]

If looking at Doom Engine, can't we compare to Grave Titan and hand it to him?
-Still bigger than goyf, and basically unblockable against S&T. Kills anything in Legacy that isn't TNN
-More permanents makes him nigh-unkillable for walkers and help with S&T
-His chumps and attacking chumps help get through the garbage they could block with

...^^^ relevant point

Scuttling is the same card but worse. If you hate titan, OK, I can understand that. I didn't run him either!

Even if there's a cool loop to be had with Doom Engine via nightmare, isn't praying for a pair of non-tutorable 1-ofs to coincide a bit unrealistic? It's a cute combo and nothing else. <-relevant point

Engine dies to precisely 1 card that is actually run in the format; which is Lily. Everything else exiles or tucks it. <-relevant point

If you want an alternate win con, I ran into a developing deck running Ob Nixilis, the Fallen which (with Nightmare) still blasts people for 6 off of explorer or PT recursion. Much better than engine IMO since the cards it combos with are easily found. <-relevant point


@Tom4ik
I don't disagree that Tutors are better than Cantrips; but they're not mutually exclusive. Further, I was pointing out that Top is also a cantrip to help show that even the non blue variants of the deck are spending slots on consistency outside of GSZ/Pod. Indeed, you do not want a deck that looks like:
4 GSZ
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

because GSZ is basically a cantrip itself (taxes you 1, finds what you want, card neutral.)


EDIT: On the engine; isn't a recurring Nightmare loop easier with Titan? Play titan, recurring nightmare x2 nets you a pair of zombies. <- relevant point


EDIT2: @Tom4ik
I agree that the Punishing-Fit builds are better as well. They play Punishing more reliably than other decks (Primetime for Groves), punishing fire is a sac outlet, and they don't have to durdle around. They just kill weenies and dudes until they've hit a bomb. It's a build I'll be testing (probably with a list similar to what was linked a page ago.)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Even if there's a cool loop to be had with Doom Engine via nightmare, isn't praying for a pair of non-tutorable 1-ofs to coincide a bit unrealistic? It's a cute combo and nothing else. <-relevant point
Both pieces are tutor-able in the list that Arianhod posted a few pages back (rector and gsz for fierce empath). It is not that hard to set up and I've had quite a few games end with attacking through creatures that couldn't block it then saccing it multiple times to just kill them.

It certainly doesn't belong in every deck but in my limited experience with that rector list it's an awesome piece of the puzzle and way better than grave titan in that deck.

[apple713]

Anyone try mixing the early game of nic fit with the late game of 12 post?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Anyone try mixing the early game of nic fit with the late game of 12 post?http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

The mana looks really rough though and that matchups section seems pretty optimistic.

[conboy31]

Anyone try mixing the early game of nic fit with the late game of 12 post?

I have given a small amount of effort a few times. I liked the idea of blue for brainstorm, show and tell and SB. Though the manabase gets eccentric fast. The BG(x?) version is better, but I still don't think you can really 11 or 12 post, probably have to settle for around 8 or 9.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Anyone try mixing the early game of nic fit with the late game of 12 post?

The biggest challenge I see when I think of combining Nic Fit with 12 Post is the incompatibility between the Nic Fit mana-base (i.e. mostly one mana per use lands) and Candelabra of Tawnos, which is what slingshots 12 Post into it's end-game Eldrazi bombs and Eye of Ugin tutor.

MUD or most anything else with Stompy manabase is better in this regard as they run Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, which by themselves are useful with Candelabra of Tawnos.

If, however, you still want to combine Nic Fit with 12 Post, then I suggest using a different engine-enabler (if that is the correct terminology) other than Candelabra: Nissa, Worldwaker seems like the best candidate for this purpose.

[UseLess]

I would like to ask for some tips/tricks in sideboarding against D&T. I hate that deck to play against. A mono-white deck with hardly any card draw or selection, yet it always manages to have the best cards for each situation or have insane top decks. I do not think I have won any of my matches against D&T in my weekly legacy tournaments since this January... Extremely frustrating. I feel like it's a combination between sub-optimal playing/sideboaring, a tough match-up and sheer luck from their side. Typical example is ripping my opponents hand apart with cabal therapies, just to have them top deck a stoneforge mystic, slam batterskull, while I draw some of my pretty dual lands... I always try to keep some cabal behind in case they tutor for their equipments, which has already helped a bit, but I'm still losing most matches 1-2. Thalia is an absolute bitch whom makes sweepers often come too late at too high a cost. Anyway, I would like to hear some opinions on what to board out (in is pretty obvious). My latest version of my BUGpod list:

Mainboard:
3x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Baleful Strix
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Thragtusk
1x Kodama of the North Tree
1x Acidic Slime
1x Consecrated Sphinx

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Abrupt Decay

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Birthing Pod

1x Liliana of the Veil

2x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
4x Force of Will
2x Envelop
2x Swan Song
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Thoughtseize

My current plan is to do the following:

In: +1 Reclamation sage, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Toxic Deluge, +2 Golgari Charm
Out: -2 Ponder, -1 Liliana (often too slow), -1 Eternal Witness (sloooow), -1 ???

So I'm stuck here. I could choose not to board in the thoughtseize, but an extra card to take BS/Jitte after SFM seems valuable. I know there's a few slots in my list that are a bit atypical. The Kodama is still being tested. TNN is a card that I personally love and has served me very well. Every time I play that card it's just awesome. He is also the perfect blocker against batterskull or Jitte holding creatures.

[Philipp2293]

Siding out Ponder can't be right, it ensures you hit your landdrops with your mana hungry deck vs their denial. I'm pretty sure double Glen Elendra Archmage is not needed postboard, and you can probably shave another fatty.

[UseLess]

You have a good point about the fatty, I'll probably board out the Kodama as that one is less necessary. The glen's are of course not optimal, but in my meta the D&T decks pack a decent amount of flyers, so that's why I'm not overly fond of cutting them, but one might be right. Ponder is rather bad with Thalia in play and I rather have an answer than having to dig for them. Usually I don't have the time to do fancy stuff and need to spam blockers into sweepers to have a chance at all. On paper the match up looks pretty decent as we have deed and stuff, but in my experience they always have the perfect cards/answers in every situation. Very, very annoying. For now I'll try:

In: +1 Reclamation sage, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Toxic Deluge, +2 Golgari Charm
Out: -1 Ponder, -1 Liliana, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Kodama, -1 Glen elendra Archmage

[Whitefaces]

Playing this at my LGS tonight. I'm more interested in having fun (playing Ob Nixalis and Pack Rat) than winning, but I went 4 - 0 with a similar decklist recently.

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Pack Rat
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Ob Nixalis, Unshackled

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Ploughshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats

SB:

1 Ashen Rider
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Malstrom Pulse

SB is hilariously bad too, but should be fun!

Pridemage could be a Rec Sage, but the body is better. Still undecided on that one.

EDIT: I'd like a Fierce Empath in here to fetch titan and ob, maybe cut the rat. It's not tutorable at all.

[mainactivenet]

Thrun, the last troll
I don't understand the idea to put in every Nic Fit deck this card, because of two things: 1) in the miracles matchup - the opponent has Terminus or Supreme verdict to stop Thrun(
2) in the delver matchup - for my opinion it's a bit slower creature to have pressure on the opponent, and after Pernicious deed, i think, Scavenging ooze has to be more interesting.
Where am i wrong?
P.S. Sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

[Arianrhod]

Thrun, the last troll
I don't understand the idea to put in every Nic Fit deck this card, because of two things: 1) in the miracles matchup - the opponent has Terminus or Supreme verdict to stop Thrun(
2) in the delver matchup - for my opinion it's a bit slower creature to have pressure on the opponent, and after Pernicious deed, i think, Scavenging ooze has to be more interesting.
Where am i wrong?
P.S. Sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

I have a well established hatred for Thrun. The card is fine in Punishing Fit, bad in every other version.

[Vandalize]

Thrun, the last troll
I don't understand the idea to put in every Nic Fit deck this card, because of two things: 1) in the miracles matchup - the opponent has Terminus or Supreme verdict to stop Thrun(
2) in the delver matchup - for my opinion it's a bit slower creature to have pressure on the opponent, and after Pernicious deed, i think, Scavenging ooze has to be more interesting.
Where am i wrong?
P.S. Sorry for my english, it's not my native language)

He can survive Supreme Verdict if you have mana to regenerate him. Terminus is good for a reason, we can't do anything.

Against Delver, I agree post-Deed Scavenging Ooze is better. Pre-Deed Thrun is just awesome, and can only be removed by Liliana of the Veil.

[Tom4ik]

Thrun is a durable threat, reduces the options the opponent has to deal with him. Terminus is fine, they burn a terminus to put Thrun back into my deck which means I still have 5 copies of him available. Against delver, if you can keep the delver off the board then thrun becomes a wall that they cannot remove which can buy a ton of time to get a Lily or a Deed. If you run Kessig then there is no reason not to have access to him, personally I would remove huntmaster or even ooze before I take thrun out of this list.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I believe ive voiced my dislike for Thrun and my reason why before in this thread, but I shall do so once more.

Thrun's greatest weakness isn't his survivability (or supposed lack thereof) while on the battlefield or being cast, but because his uncounterability, lack thereof when used with GSZ and Legendary supertype forces certain deckbuilding restraints within the Nic Fit archetype just to get a beefier Troll Ascetic that can still be countered when tutored for.

[Whitefaces]

Ended up going 3-1 with that deck tonight, with odd outcomes to some matchups.

R1 vs Manaless Dredge.

G1: Managed to T1 Exploder, T2 Therapy naming bridge, hit one, then fetch up lands removing the bridge...turn three Thrun and the I topdecked a GSZ for Scooze which finished it up. The scooze took three very tight turns though as I had three green sources and his GY was stacked, but I got there.

G2: He didn't have great dredges, and I had Exploder + Therapy again to ramp, then GSZ for KotR which got Bojuka Bog.

1 - 0

R2 vs ANT

G1: He opens with Swamp, petal, Ponder on the play and shuffles. I kept a super solid but greedy 1-lander with DRS, Therapy and GSZ. I don't draw a land and Bayou go. He topdecks a Volcanic and plays a Preordain, bottoms both and passes. I don't draw a land but therapy naming BS. I assumed his hand was full of cantrips. It hits a BS and there are two more Preordains. I burn the GSZ to get a Dryad Arbor and take both the Preordains which left him with a Dark Ritual and a Tutor. He draws lands for two turns while I draw two STP. I finally get my second land and play Liliana which finishes off the game.

G2: Kept a slow hand with 3 lands, Witness, GSZ, Chains of Mefistopholes and Deed. Could have definitely been a mull, though. Managed to survive until T2 and played chains. He had to EOT decay it, I then GSZd for Teeg (he then moaned and told me he was about to go off). He couldn't find an answer to teeg that next turn, I drew a therapy, played it hitting a tutor, witnessed it back and took some rituals then stripped the last card which was PiF in his hand. He had four lands in play. I had drawn a GsZ the turn before which fetched an ooze to eat it and that was game.

2 - 0

R3 vs DnT

This is meant to be a good matchup right? Deed is quite good vs them, right? Well, I can't remember the exact details, but I drew very, very little lands in both games. It was very frustrating for a Nic Fit deck to be mana screwed, and this wasn't even down to ports/wastes. I just couldn't draw lands to save my life.

2 - 1

R4 vs Lands

Sorry, but I can't remember most of the details to this match either as I was getting quite tired. Both games went very long, but I ended up winning 2 - 0. Bojuka Bog did a lot of work in both games, and Oozes won it. He never managed to assemble Marit Lage as I had Liliana, StP and Karakas to answer it. I was also able to flood the board too much to be contained with Mazes.

Considering the matchups I was pretty surprised to go 3 - 1, and to lose to DnT!

[GtF]

The way DnT usually beats BUG Pod is by taxing its mana with rishadan ports, wastelands, and thalia and winning before we can fully recover. If you can mitigate that, you'll usually be alright. To that end, I recommend playing 4 Deathrites and 4 Veteran Explorers in the deck. I also play 4 Baleful Strixes, though 3 is probably ok. These help you cycle through your deck and get mana in the early game so that you can play your more powerful cards later (like deed and pod) and stop them from getting too far ahead with equipments.
Like you already figured out, Thalia makes non-creature spells pretty awkward. I only play 4 brainstorms and no ponders in my list, and I usually side out 1-2 brainstorms against DnT, so siding out both ponders seems completely fine to me.
Generally I'd try and reduce the casting costs in the deck as much as possible. Kodama of the North Tree is not needed to beat them, and costs a lot of mana. The second Glen Elendra probably isn't needed either. Though I love acidic slime, I think it is not needed any more at all now that Reclamation Sage exists.


I would like to ask for some tips/tricks in sideboarding against D&T. I hate that deck to play against. A mono-white deck with hardly any card draw or selection, yet it always manages to have the best cards for each situation or have insane top decks. I do not think I have won any of my matches against D&T in my weekly legacy tournaments since this January... Extremely frustrating. I feel like it's a combination between sub-optimal playing/sideboaring, a tough match-up and sheer luck from their side. Typical example is ripping my opponents hand apart with cabal therapies, just to have them top deck a stoneforge mystic, slam batterskull, while I draw some of my pretty dual lands... I always try to keep some cabal behind in case they tutor for their equipments, which has already helped a bit, but I'm still losing most matches 1-2. Thalia is an absolute bitch whom makes sweepers often come too late at too high a cost. Anyway, I would like to hear some opinions on what to board out (in is pretty obvious). My latest version of my BUGpod list:

Mainboard:
3x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Baleful Strix
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Sower of Temptation
2x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Thragtusk
1x Kodama of the North Tree
1x Acidic Slime
1x Consecrated Sphinx

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Abrupt Decay

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Birthing Pod

1x Liliana of the Veil

2x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
4x Force of Will
2x Envelop
2x Swan Song
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Thoughtseize

My current plan is to do the following:

In: +1 Reclamation sage, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Toxic Deluge, +2 Golgari Charm
Out: -2 Ponder, -1 Liliana (often too slow), -1 Eternal Witness (sloooow), -1 ???

So I'm stuck here. I could choose not to board in the thoughtseize, but an extra card to take BS/Jitte after SFM seems valuable. I know there's a few slots in my list that are a bit atypical. The Kodama is still being tested. TNN is a card that I personally love and has served me very well. Every time I play that card it's just awesome. He is also the perfect blocker against batterskull or Jitte holding creatures.

[UseLess]

I managed to go 4-1-1 yesterday :). I will write a report later, but the sum up is that I won from Shardless BUG, D&T (FINALLY!!), Mono W soldiers (with chalice and armageddon) and BUG delver. I lost in a single game from Aggro loam (he had his single devastating dreams when I had 7 lands and a consecrated sphinx...) and I had a fair draw against BANT. Overall the deck performed really sweet. Phantasmal Image was great all night and I severely underestimated the card. My best moment with it was to slam a Kodama against BUG in game 2 and while my opponent cringed I said "I'll even make it better!" and copied it with my Image, just to think "maybe this card is legendary?", which it was... We and some people who watched the game had a laugh. It didn't matter much as I was winning anyway, just a lot slower now. Everything in the list just worked for me and also the sideboard was good. While I didn't play against any combo I never felt I wanted more slots dedicated to fair match ups.

About boarding vs D&T, I managed to forget to board out a card that I had writtenhere, which was my eternal witness. I'll try next time to go without ponders. I'm still testing here what's best, but all in all the games went pretty well. Acidic slime was good all evening, blowing up also the occassional land, which I find rather attractive every now and then. I prefer it over the sage mainboard, because I already have three 3-drops that function very well (I still love TNN and it was good every time I had it). More later.

So the match ups in a bit more detail:

Round 1 versus Shardless BUG 2-0
g1: I don't remember much of this game. I think it was pretty grindy seeing the life totals that both went gradually down. If I recall correct a deed managed to clear his board the moment he had some serious stuff out after which I pushed trough his life.
g2: I manage to develop my mana of an early veteran and from there seem to win the game rather easily.

Round 2 versus BANT 1-1
g1: He gets an early TNN and SFM, I saw his hand and next turn can go cast deed, but he top decked a daze in his turn so my deed was countered. After that more TNN's and equipments followed, I died rather quickly.
g2: We exchange dudes, discard, counters and removal for a while. I can't remember how, but I killed him after some time.
g3: This was a long and exciting game, both going rather quickly in semi-top deck mode. We exchange cards again and not much happens and we go into time. At this point I can't win anymore and just need to survive, while he finds a Batterskull with a SFM. At some point I have 6 lands and cast Eternal Witness to get TNN back and quickly cast it as a blocker for the batterskull. He reveals a daze and I slam my head as I look at the land in my hand that I should have played BEFORE the TNN... My deck is kind though and gives me a blocker or removal so I don't die in the extra turns. Big mistake, but luckily the same result.

Round 3 versus D&T 2-0
I hate to play against D&T, I can't say it enough. However, these games were quite enjoyable (and not just because I won).
g1: He opens with a plains and I put him on either miracles or D&T, so I fetch basics just to be sure and cast veteran. His second turn he casts Miss Bitch (Thalia) and I know for sure he is on D&T. I keep my cabals in hand as he fetches next turn a SofaI with a SFM. In my third turn I rip his SoFaI away and see a crusader that I need to take as well as my hand is pretty dead against that card atm. I think he also had a Jitte which I blew up with a hardcasted Acidic slime. A scavenging ooze at my side prevented him from really going into attack mode, but ports kept me from doing much. We each build up a bit and exchange some dudes (avenger vs strix etc.). Neither of us can get an upper hand, until I manage to steal one of his flyers with my Sower of Temptation. Backed up by another Strix he can't do much with his sole flickerwhisp and I slowly start chipping away his life total. I just keep spamming dudes and he eventually scoops up his cards.
g2: He actually doesn't know that I'm playing Pod, which is in my favor. He does his thing again with Thalia, two moms and a crusader, while I have a TNN and some other creature (acidic slime I think). I hold at some point 2 abrupt decay in my hand to kill either Thalia or a mom if he decides to attack through TNN with the crusader but he doesn't. Instead he builds up Avenger into Moat. I did not expect that one! However, it actually gives me some air as I don't have to worry about the ground dudes anymore. A phantasm copies his avenger and He swings in with prot white from mom after blocks. Two decays later he has no more flyers and I take control of the game. A golgari charm makes sure he isn't going to do anything anymore and I kill him after I get a pod out to get my EDH cards.
2-0!! YES YES YES. 2-0-1 and winning from D&T, my evening was complete.

Round 4 versus Mono W soldiers 2-1
g1: I know my opponent and he either plays MUD or mono W soldiers, both with mainboard chalice of the void. My blind cabal hits and my deck does what it does. Killing his stuff and then going bigger.
g2: I don't have many creatures out as he plays some dudes. I have a deed so that is no problem, up to the moment he plays armageddon.... After some turns I manage to get three lands in play and a deed, and in his turn I go from 3 to 1 from his only card in play, a daru warchief. I need a non-fetch land to blow his win up and take control, but I draw something useless...
g3: He mulligans to five and my T1 thoughtseize, T2 cabal (hitting double Thalia) put him so far behind that he never is in the game. Too bad he lost like this.

Round 5 versus Aggro Loam 0-1
g1: This took forever. He plays SLOW (and has a reputation to do so) even after asking to speed up. I'm in a good position most of the game and when having 7 land I slam my consecrated sphinx, after he used double Pfire to get rid of my glen elendra. He turns out to have his one-off devastating dreams which he can cast for 7... There go all my basics. From there I can get some duals in play and even some creatures, hitting him to 3, while he plays slow and does basically nothing. I could have conceded but I wanted to try to win this game, as my deck isn't likely to win in 15ish minutes anyway. He takes control slowly and I die from a gigantic ooze after 48 minutes... Lame, he gave me a decent chance by not wastelocking me and I had a slim shot to kill him, but failed. I don't know if it would have been better to concede, but I lose after quite a frustrating game (he is slooooowwww...).

Round 6 versus BUG delver 2-0
I need to win this one to get into the prices
g1: I open with DRS, followed by a DRS from him. I'm reasonably happy at this point as BUG decks are usually decent match ups. My Abrupt decay makes short work of his DRS and I start to grind a bit. Once I get a veteran out and search for basics he quickly dies as he didn't have the right removal/counters at the right time.
g2: T1 veteran ensures that I can develop my mana base, and I ripped his apart with cabals. As I know exactly what he has in hand I'm pretty free to cast spells without needing to fear counters, getting out a pod. He struggles to not get overwhelmed and at some point has a delver, but I think my archmage keeps him at bay. The order of things is a bit fuzzy, but my most briljant play was slamming Kodama and copying it with my image. While I do so I think out loud "oh but unless it is legendary" which it is... He needs to block my kodama with his goyf killing both of them. I know that I had my archmage in play but no more five drops to go for with pod (he hymned my thragtusk and I boarded out the slime). Anyway, with pod out the match up is nigh unbeatable and at some point he has nothing anymore and my creatures just keep coming.

Finally a decent result again with 4-1-1 and some store credit as price. The deck performed really well and most matches were fun to play. I only played against fair decks so I'm curious how it will do now against combo. Tonight I played an interesting game against miracles going 1-1 when he was the last turn of extra time on 1 and I had a DRS, but due to RiP no way of killing him directly. I can either attack or kill the RiP with my Abrupt. I chose the latter, but it didn't matter as he had a terminus on top which he drew with top. The miracles match up is a bit 50/50 and actually pretty interesting. Lost against some weird Jund deck and won from burn. Thragtusk and DRS made short work of his burn plans. Dropped at 1-1-1 as I didn't feel like playing another 3 rounds. Plenty of other things to do (like typing this).
Anyway, great deck, good matches and a lot of fun and capable of winning! Just need to play a little better, I regularly make mistakes that I immediatly see afterwards, so those can be mitigated. I hope that I'll be able to give the deck a spin at a larger tournament at some point. Would be awesome to try and get consecrated in some top X list.

[Tom4ik]

I am playing in an IQ sunday and as I havent been able to get a BUG list together that I really like I will probably just play my fire list.

4 grove of the burn willows
2 bayou
1 taiga
1 badlands
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run

4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith

4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtsieze
2 gitaxian probe
3 liliana of the veil
3 pernicious deed
3 sensei's diving top
3 punishing fire
3 abrupt decay

SB
2 blood moon
2 slaughter games
2 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
1 abrubt decay
3 red elemental blast
2 duress
1 garruk, primal hunter


My guess for the meta will be lots of delver and stoneforge decks so I think jund may actually better suited for it anyway, but I really want to figure out a bug list to play eventually here.

What are some ppls sideboards right now? mine has been smth like this for a while now but in a larger event I may want to stream line the board better than when I play in a 20 person weekly.

Has anybody been running 1 or 2 deathrites main in a fire list and if so how have they been? My main concern is that in reality there seems to be few times that I actually want to gsz for ramp that I want DRS more than vet but in the case of grave hate I could see it being useful...

My other concern is that with 2 probes, plus 2 TS main I have actually pretty few win cons for some matchups, specifically decks with swords to plowshares so what are some ppl are running, I have a garruk in the board for slower decks but a decent gsz target would be nice. Is anybody on broodmate still?

[HoneyT]

I am playing in an IQ sunday and as I havent been able to get a BUG list together that I really like I will probably just play my fire list.

4 grove of the burn willows
2 bayou
1 taiga
1 badlands
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run

4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith

4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtsieze
2 gitaxian probe
3 liliana of the veil
3 pernicious deed
3 sensei's diving top
3 punishing fire
3 abrupt decay

SB
2 blood moon
2 slaughter games
2 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
1 abrubt decay
3 red elemental blast
2 duress
1 garruk, primal hunter


My guess for the meta will be lots of delver and stoneforge decks so I think jund may actually better suited for it anyway, but I really want to figure out a bug list to play eventually here.

What are some ppls sideboards right now? mine has been smth like this for a while now but in a larger event I may want to stream line the board better than when I play in a 20 person weekly.

Has anybody been running 1 or 2 deathrites main in a fire list and if so how have they been? My main concern is that in reality there seems to be few times that I actually want to gsz for ramp that I want DRS more than vet but in the case of grave hate I could see it being useful...

My other concern is that with 2 probes, plus 2 TS main I have actually pretty few win cons for some matchups, specifically decks with swords to plowshares so what are some ppl are running, I have a garruk in the board for slower decks but a decent gsz target would be nice. Is anybody on broodmate still?

You could try looking at my list and the pertinent discussions of the PFire version in the last several pages. Should answer a lot of your questions.

[Arianrhod]

Just chill on the BUG versions until Khans comes out. I'm sure there'll be some toys that will revolutionize bug-colored iterations in that set.

I'll be at the SCG Invitational tomorrow doing battle. I won't specify exactly my list or which subversion I'll be playing, but let's just say that I'm keeping up my end of the deal as part of the family. Expect a report(s) when I return. Hopefully I can get a camera match =D

[HoneyT]

I'll be cheering for you buddy. Agreed though, definitely looking forward to new BUG and Junk goodies in Khans.

[Tom4ik]

@HoneyT
-Your list uses choke instead of carpet of flowers do you still like choke over flowers even with an additional 6 drop and a 4th sdt to sink mana into?
- This may not be a consideration for you (in my weekly it is for me) but thoughts on your lands/depths match up? no answer to marit lage?
-I actually am liking the Kgrip over the 4 decay in the board

@Arianrhod
- Good luck
- The bug deck has kind of just become my project, trying to make a BUG control deck with vet. So many options but havent seemed to put anything together, the vet walkers build I tried seemed very interesting but played out very different than what I was anticipating. I have some ideas but I guess in a month we can see if anything more has been added.

[Ralf]

My guess for the meta will be lots of delver and stoneforge decks so I think jund may actually better suited for it anyway, but I really want to figure out a bug list to play eventually here.

What are some ppls sideboards right now? mine has been smth like this for a while now but in a larger event I may want to stream line the board better than when I play in a 20 person weekly.

Has anybody been running 1 or 2 deathrites main in a fire list and if so how have they been? My main concern is that in reality there seems to be few times that I actually want to gsz for ramp that I want DRS more than vet but in the case of grave hate I could see it being useful...

My other concern is that with 2 probes, plus 2 TS main I have actually pretty few win cons for some matchups, specifically decks with swords to plowshares so what are some ppl are running, I have a garruk in the board for slower decks but a decent gsz target would be nice. Is anybody on broodmate still?

My latest punishing Fit list:

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

I took down 2 weekly with it.
I have beaten Dredge 2-1, Merfolk 2-0, Jund 2-0, BUG Shardless 2-0, Burn 2-1, Miracle 2-0, D&T 2-1, Deadguy 2-0, S&T 2-1, Patriot Delver 2-0

The list is tuned for an unknown meta (as a lot of players own a lot of different decks and you never know what they are going to play).

M.D Ghost was featuring 2 DRS in his list during a long time (1 MD & 1 SB) and was very happy with it.

Few comments about the latest change I made to my list:

1) Dryad militant was moved to SB.
2) Thrun & Primeval got the axe.
3) Batterskull is now included MD as the late game "finisher"
4) Garruk relentless has replaced Garruk, primal hunter
5) No utility lands (got cut with Primeval)
6) 2 diabolic edict are now included MD
7) Gaddock is now played in SB and a savannah is included MD.

This list is more Maveryish than others, but I like it. Having access to different pieces of hate with 4 GSZ is really powerful:
- Dryad was MVP against dredge
- Huntmaster can "race" a Grisel. First game (knowing the opp was on S&T) I kept a mulligan to 4 with 2 lands 1 edict 1 Huntmaster. He slamed Grisel off a S&T on turn 2 and I was able to grind him out with the Hunt and the tokens... Game 2, I mulled into oblivion and G3 was not even close as I had one of the best hand vs combo (cabal, vet, TS, surgical, 1 forest, 1 fetch, 1 slaughter game).
- Gaddock has yet to prove itself but I'm sure he will, eventually.
- Finks was good where I was not expected it (mainly for burn match and to go aggro against combo) but finally it really shined in fair matches (D&T, Jund, Shardless). Didn't see him against burn, Thragtusk & BSK were enough to seal the deal on their own...
- Sage won me an unwinnable game against D&T where I had to cope with an avenger equiped with BSK. He did also some good work against Merfolk dealing with a Jitte.

[litenkatt]

@Ralf

So you've cut the 4th Top. Thought it was compulsory to punshing fit.

I like the 1off Savannah/Teeg. Gives me a reason to play my beta savannah (!)

2 Thoughtseize and the 2 diabolic edicts main, mind explaining these?

[jbone2016]

@HoneyT
-Your list uses choke instead of carpet of flowers do you still like choke over flowers even with an additional 6 drop and a 4th sdt to sink mana into?
- This may not be a consideration for you (in my weekly it is for me) but thoughts on your lands/depths match up? no answer to marit lage?
-I actually am liking the Kgrip over the 4 decay in the board

@Arianrhod
- Good luck
- The bug deck has kind of just become my project, trying to make a BUG control deck with vet. So many options but havent seemed to put anything together, the vet walkers build I tried seemed very interesting but played out very different than what I was anticipating. I have some ideas but I guess in a month we can see if anything more has been added.

Tom, I'll be there with my Rector list on sunday. Hopefully I do better then the last time. 0-3 to sneak/show, miracles and ant.

[Ralf]

@Ralf

So you've cut the 4th Top. Thought it was compulsory to punshing fit.

I like the 1off Savannah/Teeg. Gives me a reason to play my beta savannah (!)

2 Thoughtseize and the 2 diabolic edicts main, mind explaining these?

Thoughtseize

To improve the odds of beating combo.decks G1. 14 black mana sources help a lot when it comes to T1 = swamp + discard. Furthermore, this discard configuration gives access to some pretty devastating starting hands with CT + TS.
This was also a personal choice to free up to 2 slots in the sideboard for hate bears instead of the usual 3 or 4 TS come in from the side against combo.

Diabolic edict

In a lot of MU, I have found that sometimes I was missing a fundamental and very crucial turn to take control of the game, either:
- to get punish going
- to stabilize
- to kill the strong T2 threat of my opponent (protected either by counter or because my removal was discarded during opponent T1)

So I felt like I needed an extra cheap but powerful removal.
Pulse is good but cannot always be online T2. So I cut it.
Diabolic edict was the next logical choice. Innocent blood has also been considered because of its CMC & inherent synergy with veteran but the sorcery speed thing is relevant in some match up and in late game diabolic edict > IB.

Subsequently, it also has strenghtened one of our worst MU = Show & Tell.

[jbone2016]

I have a well established hatred for Thrun. The card is fine in Punishing Fit, bad in every other version.

How about great stable stag? too lame?

[Ralf]

How about great stable stag? too lame?

I wish we had something like phyrexian or Mirran crusader in green instead...
Stag is.... No, Stag does not belong to this deck :cry:

[jbone2016]

I wish we had something like phyrexian or Mirran crusader in green instead...
Stag is.... No, Stag does not belong to this deck :cry:

I wish we had something like gaea's revenge but less then 7 mana.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tom4ik]

I like the diabolic edict, will probably run 2 though not sure if MD or in the board. I will probably replace the 2 probes for something but not sure, I like being able to create bootleg TS off of probe therapy. My only concern is giving up 2 slots for the effect. I have rarely been unhappy with them but they are also pretty low power overall...

Has any body (I am assuming this would most likely be you Jbone as your on rector) used chains in the board? I had it in there for a while but it never seemed to do as much as I hoped and it does fall to deed. If anybody swears by it I could throw that in the side.

What I also like about edict is that it could help the lands matchup. Not sure why my local is infested with it (The SCG KC had 2 top 16 lands decks and both of those players play here) so I like to have some answer to that deck, I played Rw painter wed and turn 1 blood moon against it felt sweet :) I will probably not run my blood moons sunday as they are basically for lands or shardless as I dont like spending a turn mooning delver, at least the rug variant. Has not worked as often as I would like.

[Ralf]

I like the diabolic edict, will probably run 2 though not sure if MD or in the board. I will probably replace the 2 probes for something but not sure, I like being able to create bootleg TS off of probe therapy. My only concern is giving up 2 slots for the effect. I have rarely been unhappy with them but they are also pretty low power overall...

Has any body (I am assuming this would most likely be you Jbone as your on rector) used chains in the board? I had it in there for a while but it never seemed to do as much as I hoped and it does fall to deed. If anybody swears by it I could throw that in the side.

What I also like about edict is that it could help the lands matchup. Not sure why my local is infested with it (The SCG KC had 2 top 16 lands decks and both of those players play here) so I like to have some answer to that deck, I played Rw painter wed and turn 1 blood moon against it felt sweet :) I will probably not run my blood moons sunday as they are basically for lands or shardless as I dont like spending a turn mooning delver, at least the rug variant. Has not worked as often as I would like.

Diabolic edict are great, really. Could be a meta-call but since the two last weekly, they are gonna stay for a while. It feels like I have "lost" some power in the very late game (less bombs) while strenghtening the early game. If your field is a combo/tempo one (as mine), there is "no" late game...
Dealing main deck with Marit or Kukul is no joke.

Huntmaster / Ooze / BSK have taken the 'lead'.
In grindy MU, Ooze/ BSK are my punching machines, usually a 8/8 or 10/10 vanilla bear or a 5/5 veteran vigilance lifelink.
In combo MU, Mr Hunt is the Boss. 3 or 4 turn clock. But still, I'm looking for another cheaper clock MD which could be useful in other MU.

There is Tarmo or Strangleroot Geist. I will likely test Geist as my 61th card.

I'm a fan of chains in Pox but never got to use them in Nic Fit. Jund players usually put 1/2 in the side and replace their 1/2-of Sylvan library in relevant MU. Space is tight. I could see it relevant but you would need 2 of them, at least to improve the odd of seeing one.

[bryanzoll]

Hey guys,

First time poster on the Nic Fit threads. I am on Jund (non-Nic Fit) right now and I am thinking of making a switch to Nic Fit because I really like the idea of a toolbox deck with lots of utility cards.

The BUG version of Nic Fit interests me the most, however I have seen a bunch of posts saying to hold off on BUG until Khan is released.

I am playing in the open on Sunday and would like to try and bring Nic Fit with me if at all possible. Does anyone have any suggestions as far as a Nic Fit version for someone like me?

Thanks.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Hey guys,

First time poster on the Nic Fit threads. I am on Jund (non-Nic Fit) right now and I am thinking of making a switch to Nic Fit because I really like the idea of a toolbox deck with lots of utility cards.

The BUG version of Nic Fit interests me the most, however I have seen a bunch of posts saying to hold off on BUG until Khan is released.

I am playing in the open on Sunday and would like to try and bring Nic Fit with me if at all possible. Does anyone have any suggestions as far as a Nic Fit version for someone like me?

Thanks.The punishing fire lists should be very easy to transition into from Jund (there have been a few lists in the last couple pages). I'd say that's your best shot on short notice.

The BUG pod lists are awesome but definitely take some practice to get the hang of, it's a deck where you really have to be thinking a few turns out as well as know how to respond with all of your one-of's.

[Tom4ik]

Ralf, without the titan have you found late game gsz less effective? Usually titan is game where hunt and ooze both die to most of the removal spells (swords, decay, bolt). being able to grab double groves is usually good enough to stabilize most board states though i have been recently not liking the wolf run though I used to love it so i am assuming its just some varience in game states leading to those feelings.

I saw some old jund lists played an underground sea with swan song in the board for combo matchups. Thoughts on a trop -> 2/3 song, basically replace the sideboard discard and open the post board matchups with that out of the side. Too deep?

Bryanzoll- what type of bug version are you looking at? I'm trying to make a non-pod version so i have some thoughts on that but none on pod decks.

[iamajellydonut]

I saw some old jund lists played an underground sea with swan song in the board for combo matchups. Thoughts on a trop -> 2/3 song, basically replace the sideboard discard and open the post board matchups with that out of the side. Too deep?

Jund runs twice as many fetches and has Deathrite Shamans. I also can't imagine it panned out too well.

[Tom4ik]

If I ran smth like that I would also move 2 drs into the main to facilitate as well. So with gsz it would help you land a deathrite if you didnt see a fetch. I think the main idea wouldnt be would it be hard to produce a blue mana (that can be done) it would be would the swan song be useful enough to commit that many slots to. sounds like you think it wouldnt so thats fair. I didnt know if anyone had seen those or heard that or not.

[iamajellydonut]

Well, another thing to consider is that after all of these changes, how much better is Swan Song than your basic Duress or Reb?

[Tom4ik]

In my view it would be significant if you could reliably have it plus the blue. Being able to stop the top of the deck AFTER the therapy/TS you already run opens up another avenue of attack. Though i think your right that the overall end result probably wouldnt be worth the cost...

[jbone2016]

I like the diabolic edict, will probably run 2 though not sure if MD or in the board. I will probably replace the 2 probes for something but not sure, I like being able to create bootleg TS off of probe therapy. My only concern is giving up 2 slots for the effect. I have rarely been unhappy with them but they are also pretty low power overall...

Has any body (I am assuming this would most likely be you Jbone as your on rector) used chains in the board? I had it in there for a while but it never seemed to do as much as I hoped and it does fall to deed. If anybody swears by it I could throw that in the side.

What I also like about edict is that it could help the lands matchup. Not sure why my local is infested with it (The SCG KC had 2 top 16 lands decks and both of those players play here) so I like to have some answer to that deck, I played Rw painter wed and turn 1 blood moon against it felt sweet :) I will probably not run my blood moons sunday as they are basically for lands or shardless as I dont like spending a turn mooning delver, at least the rug variant. Has not worked as often as I would like.

No access to Chains :(. I had a spirit of the labyrith in the main before but it really didn't cut it. I tried Fate Unraveler for lol's the last tournament but it was a non factor. I'm still thinking about collective blessing for this week.

[Firepaw3]

Playing the folowing 75 tomorrow at the scg open:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
SB:
3 REB
3 thoughtseize
1 scapeshift
1 kessig wolf run
1 slaughter games
1 maelstrom pulse
1 pyroclasm
1 toxic deluge
1 innocent blood
1 massacre
1 carpet of flowers

Ive done light testing with shusher vs miracles(has been great) and with all the DRS around i opted to cut ewit for it
kessig is also for the miracles mu just to make everything i play a threat, allows me to use scapeshift early for it before they have control of the game
The biggest problem ive been having with this deck(other than combo) is the rug delver mu just not being able to get footing fast enough,i want to add another carpet but have no idea what to cut, suggestions?

[Arianrhod]

Jbone and firepaw, I'm here. Try to track me down via pairings some round if you get time / see this

[Arianrhod]

Lol. My elves opponent goes from a board state of arbor + ba you on turn 3 and kills me. Real life.

[Elfkid]

Playing the folowing 75 tomorrow at the scg open:
Skip

I dont like to play only 3 tops xD 4 its the correct number!!!

U dont like 1 Cabal T n the sideboard, just to find it with the BW :/

Good luck today^^

[Arianrhod]

Dead. Convinced that junk isn't good enough anymore. More on Tuesday with my reports. Firepaw is 1-1 after double sneak and show.

[Whitefaces]

With Explorers getting us large amounts of mana and Top being incredibly powerful in Nic Fit builds, has anyone tested Entreat the Angels out much? I've seen Bonfires in a build here or two as well though Deed probably does what Bonfire would do better.

[Ralf]

With Explorers getting us large amounts of mana and Top being incredibly powerful in Nic Fit builds, has anyone tested Entreat the Angels out much? I've seen Bonfires in a build here or two as well though Deed probably does what Bonfire would do better.

No.
Unless you are playing blue for brainstorm.
We already struggle big time when we have our big dudes in our starting hands.
Enough muligans already.

[jbone2016]

Jbone and firepaw, I'm here. Try to track me down via pairings some round if you get time / see this

I was at a IQ today with Tom.

Lost to elves in 3.
Beat solider stompy in 2. (he had a game loss)
Beat ANT in 2.
Lost to burn in 2.
Lost to mud in 3.

[Arianrhod]

I was at a IQ today with Tom.

Lost to elves in 3.
Beat solider stompy in 2. (he had a game loss)
Beat ANT in 2.
Lost to burn in 2.
Lost to mud in 3.

The weirdest of matchups.

[jbone2016]

The weirdest of matchups.

Yeah. The elves guy wasn't happy about facing me again (I played him when I had Moat in the main deck). He turn two natural order for a Ruric Thar but I chumped with a Vet, then chumped with a Rector (he had a DRS out but didn't know the interaction.) Got the fetters to hold of Ruric, then deeded away the rest of the board. Tusk cleaned up. Game 2: I get hoofed. Game 3: I keep a 1 lander on 7 with therapy, gsz, plague and other goodies. He mulls to 6 and blind therapy 2 drs from his hand but I don't rip a 2 land and he still goes off on turn 3...or 4.

I have a small legacy event on Thursday before st. Louis this weekend. Swaping out rector package for sfm package to try it out. More junk rock with vets

[Firepaw3]

ended up going 5-4-1, lost to sneak and show(1-2),punishing maverick(1-2)(with depths) punshing maverick(1-2)(no depths, huntmasters) and death and taxes(0-2)
Played atrociously vs DnT just missing basic stuff, against punishing maverick depths i therapy'd his knight, he to drew another and killed me a turn before lethal scapeshift game three vs punishing huntmaster I got us both into topdeck mode with clear boards and just drew lands while he got a sylvan library up
my games in order were:
Sneak 2-1
Sneak 1-2
Shardless BUG 1-1-1
DnT 2-0
DnT 0-2
Miracles 2-0
Miracles (jeremy Fehon) 2-0
BUG Delver 2-0
punishing depths maverick (Mark Strassmen) 1-2
Punishing huntmaster Maverick 1-2

The miracles matchups felt very easy, kessig wolf run helped tremendously in the match up forcing them to waste more resources on everything I played. Jeremy and I play this match up all the time so to beat him 2-0 convinces me that this is the best way to beat good miracles pilots.
The slaughtergames continue to be outstanding in the main, they do everything they're supposed to and against most blue decks aren't a completely dead draw because they can clear the way for a scapeshift
There was no time today I missed eternal witness, and shusher was great against miracles and sneak but not as impactful as I had hoped, not sure what it could be thats any better
My final sideboard looked like this:
3 REB
2 thoughtseize
2 carpet of flowers
1 slaughter games
1 innocent blood
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 massacre
1 pyroclasm
1 scapeshift
1 kessig wolf run

If I had to play another event today I would change one reb for a thoughtseize to help against sneak attacks everything else was great

[GtF]

If anyone's still interested in BUG pod, I've been testing out a trinket mage package in the SB and I've been liking it quite a bit. Had to cut the aetherling and the 3rd deed to make room but I think it's made up for by adding engineered explosives (kinda replaces deed) and pithing needle (good against miracles, like aetherling, but more widely applicable in other matchups). Trinket mage is also really nice because it provides another blue card for force in the matchups where I'd want that, and I usually want at least 1 of the two targets in those matchups.

4 Force of Will
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I wanted the last two cards to be good cards against elves. I've asked several elves players what the best cards against them are and have gotten a lot of different responses. These could also be engineered plagues (a card that takes care of true-name as well). Darkblast is another option. I don't know. Anyone have any experience playing against elves? It's worth noting that jitte is a bit better than it might otherwise be since i have some flying creatures to get past wirewood symbiote. Still might be too slow though.

In other news, Reclamation Sage is completely insane in the deck now. Not too much of a surprise, but figured I'd report my results.

[Bobmans]

If anyone's still interested in BUG pod, I've been testing out a trinket mage package in the SB and I've been liking it quite a bit. Had to cut the aetherling and the 3rd deed to make room but I think it's made up for by adding engineered explosives (kinda replaces deed) and pithing needle (good against miracles, like aetherling, but more widely applicable in other matchups). Trinket mage is also really nice because it provides another blue card for force in the matchups where I'd want that, and I usually want at least 1 of the two targets in those matchups.

4 Force of Will
3 Riptide Pilferer
2 Envelop
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I wanted the last two cards to be good cards against elves. I've asked several elves players what the best cards against them are and have gotten a lot of different responses. These could also be engineered plagues (a card that takes care of true-name as well). Darkblast is another option. I don't know. Anyone have any experience playing against elves? It's worth noting that jitte is a bit better than it might otherwise be since i have some flying creatures to get past wirewood symbiote. Still might be too slow though.

In other news, Reclamation Sage is completely insane in the deck now. Not too much of a surprise, but figured I'd report my results.

Curious to your main.

Reclamation Sage is awefully good. I guess it's a no brainer to include it.
As for Umezewa's Jitte, i think it's to slow against Elves (turn 3 hoof?) and as a one-off to random as i can't find anything to search it with in any BUG pod list. I suppose a combination of Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm and/or Engineered Plague coupled with Deeds and Trinket/Esplosives might be best. Remember they also have Reclemation Sage in their main to GSZ.

Aside from your list the new set has a BUG creature. It looks like it needs to be abused in some way. BUG pod lists are creature heavy, but i can't think of something to abuse it with other then Recurring Nightmare or Unearth.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/61/930/635451629690217576.png

[Tom4ik]

I started testing on a Bug list. It is definitely not a tuned list but I mostly wanted to try out some cards together and see how it played out. The list I played :

2 bayou
1 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 creeping tar pit
2 swamp
2 forest
2 island
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
4 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
2 eternal witness

4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 abrubt decay
4 force of will

3 jace, the mind sculptor
3 liliana of the veil
3 pernicious deed


I tested mostly 4 ofs so that I could get most of these cards each game so I am not in love with some of these numbers yet. I really liked the early game this deck. some other thoughts
1. A very low curve, this can be both good (less reliance on vet going off as jace is the most expensive spell) and also means it takes advantage of vet the least. Ideally you chain through your deck, set up the power couple and beat with witness and tarpit
2. No way to really close out the game. with therapy, probe and vet this deck was able to strip hand and have mana very quickly but could sometimes have trouble keeping control without a jace or lily or just in killing them before they get enough stuff to over power.
3. My mana base also could be a problem, this deck is almost using vet not as an accelerant but as a color fixer. In many ways this deck is as greedy as smth like shardless bug or deathblade. It wants to play veteran or cabal turn 1, strix on turn 2, has double green, black and blue spells as well as 2 colorless lands, 2 comes into play tapped lands and 6 basics.

I absolutely thought this deck was rough but it also felt very powerful. I think there is potential here.

[thotcrime]

Hey guiz, lost my old account info (hymntotourcock) but I have returned. It's been a while!

Is Punishing Fit even a thing anymore? With all the Shardless BUGs and Delver lists popping up, I would think PFire would be on the rise!

[Tom4ik]

@thotcrime - I still play punishing. I played it on sunday at an IQ and went 1-2 drop.
I crushed rug delver 2-0
lost in 3 to elves. won game 1 at 1 life until I made an 11 ooze. Game 2 I mulled to 5 with a golgari charm but he turn 2 progged me. Game 3 was terrible, got us both topdecking, him with 2 land no board, me with land plus grove (about 7 land out) and draw 4! land in a row...uhhh.
Lost 0-2 to reanimator. turn 2 Gbrand followed by a game 2 of turn 1 study binning iona & Gbrand -> reanimate Gbrand, petal exume Iona on black... and that was the end of that.

[Firepaw3]

I started testing on a Bug list. It is definitely not a tuned list but I mostly wanted to try out some cards together and see how it played out. The list I played :

2 bayou
1 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 creeping tar pit
2 swamp
2 forest
2 island
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
4 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
2 eternal witness

4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
4 abrubt decay
4 force of will

3 jace, the mind sculptor
3 liliana of the veil
3 pernicious deed


I tested mostly 4 ofs so that I could get most of these cards each game so I am not in love with some of these numbers yet. I really liked the early game this deck. some other thoughts
1. A very low curve, this can be both good (less reliance on vet going off as jace is the most expensive spell) and also means it takes advantage of vet the least. Ideally you chain through your deck, set up the power couple and beat with witness and tarpit
2. No way to really close out the game. with therapy, probe and vet this deck was able to strip hand and have mana very quickly but could sometimes have trouble keeping control without a jace or lily or just in killing them before they get enough stuff to over power.
3. My mana base also could be a problem, this deck is almost using vet not as an accelerant but as a color fixer. In many ways this deck is as greedy as smth like shardless bug or deathblade. It wants to play veteran or cabal turn 1, strix on turn 2, has double green, black and blue spells as well as 2 colorless lands, 2 comes into play tapped lands and 6 basics.

I absolutely thought this deck was rough but it also felt very powerful. I think there is potential here.

I feel like your lacking threats in planeswalkers or big creatures, Not having any real way to close the game other than jace and tar pits seems rough
I would lean the deck somewhere towards Tao's old BUG list, its been great for me in the past:

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Phyrexian Tower

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

[Arianrhod]

Okay, report(s) time. I'll then have some theory followup, and then I'll close with spoiler chatter.

------------------------

The list I played for Legacy for the Invitational:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Academy Rector
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Spike Weaver
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Whip of Erebos

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gavony Township

sb::
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tsunami
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Pithing Needle

The list I played for Standard for the Invitational:

2 Blood Crypt
3 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malice
2 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

1 Ultimate Price
1 Doom Blade
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbore
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Golgari Charm
1 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall

2 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos

4 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Vraska the Unseen

//sb
3 Nylea's Disciple
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Mind Rot
2 Slaughter Games
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Ultimate Price
1 Dark Betrayal

[standard aside]
For standard, my deck selection was pretty simple: find the most NicFitish deck in the format, and go nuts. I don't play a lot of standard, and when I do, I'm usually trolling FNMs with some random terrible deck idea that entertains me and offends everyone else when I kill them with it. For this event, though, I obviously had to be a bit more serious. Jundwalkers was the obvious selection choice looking at the metagame, although I briefly considered monoblack devotion as well. The problem I had with monoB was that everyone had had months to play the matchup and tune their decks vs it, whereas Jundwalkers was "the new kid on the block." Since it was a deck which is very much in my wheelhouse, I elected to go with the deck that hasn't been around for forever.

I fervently hate Elvish Mystic in this deck. Entirely too often games come down to both players in topdeck mode (except UW, obviously....fucking sphinx's rev). If we're topdecking, I want to be the guy without a 1/1 dork in his deck. I liked the idea of hybridizing in some monsters -- Stormbreath being the best of these. Stormbreath punishes UW decks while also improving threat density for vs monoB's infinite discard and also acting as an extra "removal spell" for opposing walkers in the mirror. Connections is better than Read the Bones in my humble opinion, because it represents a lot more card draw over time and it also gives opponents something to kill other than our walkers or Coursers. Singleton Whip goes well with Xenagos, Stormbreaths, and Nissa, and in general the card is dam near unbeatable if the opponent doesn't have an immediate answer to it.

The rest of the maindeck is pretty stock, although I did opt in to the 2x Confluence + 1x Urborg tech that I saw in someone's article...I think it was GerryT's, maybe? Either way, I liked the idea of smoothing out the manabase and being able to curve better without infinite scryduals getting in the way.

The sideboard is basically completely different from stock lists, with the exception of the Mistcutters (which I think every green deck in the format runs). Nylea's Disciple helps vs RW Burn, Rabble, and other random aggro decks. I prefer this option to something like Duress because it can help with the beatdown. In testing, I found that RW Burn often turned into a race, and Nylea's Disciple undoing a couple burn spells while still leaving behind a 3/3 was relevant. Besides, I can't resist a Thragtusk. Mind Rot was extra help for Burn, good in the mirror, and also acted as Rakdos Returns 3 and 4 for vs control. Slaughter Games says no to Sphinx's Rev, and also comes in vs monoB to take their Grey Merchants. Angers were for GW aggro, Rabble, and monoU, while the extra removal spells helped tune my package for whatever I was playing vs.

[/end standard aside]

As for legacy, how I came at that list is a bit more complicated.

I knew that I didn't want to be on Scapewish. In retrospect I would've been fine, but there's a few issues with Scapewish that give me pause at the moment. First, Scape is simultaneously the most consistent and the least consistent version. Sometimes you just die to your own manabase as you draw Mountains and Valakuts -- and shy of putting in Prismatic Omens, there isn't really any way to fix this problem. The constraints of the scapeshifts and the Veterans and Top and trying to be a functional deck are very, very hard to balance. I think that we've all done as good as we're going to be able to do on that, sadly. It's just always going to have some of that inherent instability.

This weakens the deck to Delver variants. Unlike most 'normal' Nic Fit decks, Scapewish's Achilles Heel is its manabase. If the Delver opponent correctly identifies this fact, they can bring the deck to its knees with pairing mana disruption (stifle and waste) with counterspells on the creature-based fetchlands (Sakura-Tribe and Wood Elves). I'll talk more about this in the theory section, since there's some interesting discussion to be had here.

Delver can be shored up via using the two floater slots for Abrupt Decays and potentially putting some Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. However, the list overall is still fairly weak to 3/2s. Furthermore, if you strengthen your deck vs Delver, you weaken it vs Miracles and combo, because then you don't have the maindeck Slaughter Games for those matchups (where they really shine).

Then, there's another issue: Scapewish has no effective lategame, at all. Scape is a midgame deck -- if the opponent isn't dead by turn 5-6, you're probably going to start losing. Now, Scape is very good at hanging on as long as possible to find the kill -- Huntmasters, Thrags, Deeds, etc all do a good job of buying time, which is a concept that I've talked about at length. However, spending all of those slots to buy time means that you aren't really left with any kind of meaningful lategame power. It's gotten increasingly hard to deal with some of the engines that the current generation of fair decks (especially blue ones) can represent. Venser + Karakas or Clique + Karakas is one that is particularly obnoxious, and Scape doesn't have any way to either break that up or go over the top of it. If they aren't dead by the time they assemble that, we just lose.

Since I knew I didn't want to be on Scape, that left me with either Junk or BUG as options. Of the two, I've definitely played a lot more Junk and am typically more comfortable with it. Furthermore, you get Council's Judgment, which is a hell of a drug -- it answers literally anything, regardless of what the problem is. I did put some time into theoretical BUG lists, but I couldn't find any that that I was comfortable with. BUG basically needs to be Pod to be successful, it seems, which I don't want to do because having to run Pod means you have to run a ton of creatures, which reduces your interaction by quite a bit...not really where I wanted to be for the invitational.

At the point at which I was decided on junk, I had to decide which subversion I wanted. I opted to go for Thune, because it still let me run the Rector package while bumping my threat density a lot, and having a combo is nearly always better than not having a combo in Nic Fit. Furthermore, the Thune package overall got two very potent new toys in the form of Selvala and Courser, both of which trigger Archangel and enable it to be better while not comboing.

A couple of specific list notes:

-) Master of the Wild Hunt is back. The old, old Rector lists didn't run enough creatures that needed to be removed for Master to do its job -- he'd come down and they'd always have a removal spell for him. This isn't true anymore, and Master is back to being quite threatening.

-) I've discussed Selvala in the past, but I haven't said much about Courser. It's pretty insane, especially with Top.

-) Maindeck Deluge helps out with Delver, 'Blade, and Elves. I expected Elves to be the most popular combo deck of the room, so moving the Deluge maindeck made sense.

-) Whip of Erebos over Recurring Nightmare -- having the board-wide lifelink helps trigger Archangel the fair way, and I knew that I didn't want to run a Nightmare loop package. No Doom Engines for this list -- I didn't want to take up the slot with the Fierce Empath. Whip was fantastic in testing -- multiple times I killed my opponent by whipping back Archangel with Spike Feeder in play to go infinite and swing with a hasty infi/infi flyer out of seemingly nowhere.

-) Sideboard Baneslayers were my adaptation to a poor Shardless matchup. Realistically I should've realized what having a poor Shardless matchup meant, but more on that later. Some of the Shardless matchup was fixed by testing, wherein I realized that Shardless is very weak to just zerg rushing out as many Veterans as possible because they need to deal with them -- they can't actually effectively race 3 1/1s by turn 3, and if they develop their board state that they can, they have to punch through them. The Baneslayers fixed the rest of it, because First Strike matters vs Baleful Strix, and having 4 huge flying lifelinking angels is just too much for Shardless to handle. Likewise, they give you something better than Sigarda or Sun Titan to ramp into vs Delver, letting you tweak your top-end threat package for the opponent.

-) Pair of Tsunamis for Miracles. They come in vs other decks, too, but they're explicitly for Miracles.

-) The full 4 Decays split between main and side. I didn't feel like losing to Delver, as I expected a lot of the standard players to have found / built / borrowed Delver decks for the invitational because, as GerryT said, Delver is the monoblack devotion of legacy. It's always good, and it allows players to leverage their mechanical skill regardless of format knowledge. Obviously it gets a lot better in the hands of a true Eternal Wizard, but it's strong regardless.

-) 5-pack of hateful dudes. I've had tremendous success fighting combo with the 2 Canonist/2 Mindcensor/1 Teeg package.

-) 2 Pithing Needles were the last additions to my sideboard. I was originally thinking that nobody would play Sneak and Show because the deck is so wildly inconsistent, and the top 8 is played in best-of-5 legacy format -- S&S will just implode if you do make it to top 8. However, the more I thought about it, the more I decided that I was wrong. Coupled with Delver and Burn, Sneak and Show is the other "legacy noob" deck. It also enjoys a curious amount of popularity among the semipro community -- probably because of its raw power. When people aren't actively hating on it // when D&T isn't very popular, Sneak and Show is -still- the most powerful deck in the format. Since I de-emphasized the Rector package, I didn't want to run the Humility. Humility is getting worse in Nic Fit for the same reason that Moat has -- it's just not profitable for us to shoot ourselves that hard in the dick anymore. Our creatures are getting dramatically better with time, and while we don't have a lot of things that can out punch a Griselbrand, it's better to shut Sneak and Show down with other hate and leave our creatures powerful. I decided that most opponents wouldn't Show and Tell vs my deck because that can very easily go poorly for them, and that Sneak Attack is the real threat. Ergo, Pithing Needle. Needle also helps vs Elves, Painters, and other random threats.

Alright, I think that pretty well covers deck selection. Here's what happened:

----------------------

Rd 1: Mitchell with RUG Delver (stifles and g.probes).

Game one is probably weirdest game vs RUG I've ever had. He wastes me into oblivion while I therapy him into oblivion. The end result is probably 10 turns of draw-go with me having like 2 basics and a Top vs his 6ish lands, soft counters, and no threats. Eventually my Top starts seeing lands again, and I grind him out pretty quickly once I am able to actually cast things in my hand.

Game two he has "the delver draws" with double Delver, Stifle, double Waste, Force, etc. We've all been there.

Game three I mull an unkeepable 7 to the following 6: Veteran, Baneslayer, PhyTower, Bayou, Forest, Heath. I lead with Veteran, and make a turn 2 Baneslayer (which resolves). He cantrips with a Brainstorm, shuffle, Ponder, and passes back. I swing with the Baneslayer, and pass back -- I've just drawn lands. He double Bolts my Baneslayer, and then plays a Monguise. Over the next 6 or so turns, I draw a land for literally every draw step except for one where I drew a Cabal Therapy instead. At some point he deploys a Sulfuric Vortex to join his Goose. I finally draw a Zenith when I'm at 3 life, but he has double Pierce + Daze for when I try to resolve it. He ends the game at 5 life -- if I'd gotten 1 more swing with Baneslayer, I would've actually won the race against his Vortex. Or, you know, if I'd drawn literally anything over my 10 or so draw steps that game.

Salty.

Rd 2: Adam with Sneak and Show

I disrupt him a bit and he floods out hard. He finally Shows a Griselbrand, but I have a Judgment and he's too low to draw7 to protect it.

Game two basically the same thing happens. He floods super hard and basically just folds without every doing anything of note. What was I saying earlier about the deck's inconsistencies?

After our match, we played 3 games of standard for the lulz, which I think did both of our mental states wonders -- he was tilted from flooding, and I was still tilted about my round 1 loss despite turn 2 Baneslayer vs RUG. He had a sweet Slivers standard deck which he got a Deck Tech on, and we had very enjoyable games. He got me 2-1, although obviously we weren't playing very seriously and we also didn't sideboard. I made a misplay in the first game where I should've killed his flying sliver instead of his +1/+1 sliver, because then I could've Whipped back a Stormbreath, monstroused it, and swung with both of my dragons to kill him. Instead he played the indestructible silver and I just died. Games were still definitely sweet, though, and they cleared my head nicely.

Rd 3: Phillip with Death and Taxes

He looks exactly like a friend of Joey Manner's who was talking to him about Miracles before the event started, so I put him on Miracles before the match started. Whoops. It ended up not really mattering.

Game 1 I should've mulled to 5 and didn't, and got punished super hard. Gavony bit me in the ass for not being a colored source, and I died pretty quick. Upside is that I confused the fuck out of my opponent, who saw Swamp, Swamp, Gavony, and nothing else.

Game 2 he displays that he's not good at legacy as he sees Pernicious Deed coming off of Courser and names Top with his Revoker instead. Deed clears his board and I kill him summarily.

Game 3 we got into a really tense situation wherein I had to deal with his Batterskull multiple times while Sigarda flew overhead with Varolz scavenge backup. I pulled out ahead, though, and took it down.

Rd 4: Bernie with UW Blade

I mull to 6 again (for like the 4 or 5th time at this point), and he has a really weird draw that actually confuses the hell out of me. I forgot what it was like to be confused about what my opponent was doing, but this reminded me -- he had a double Mishra's Factory double Restoration Angel (!!) draw, and backed it up with double Force of Will to just flat aggro me down. I pegged him as a vintage player who was trying to adapt Blue Angels to legacy, and misboarded as a result.

Game two he shows me much more typical UW Blade stuff, and I can't recover from his flurry of Snapcasters and Council's Judgments backed up with Jace, Forces, and Batterskull. Everything I put into play is countered or exiled. This sets the stage for Sunday.

So, I escape legacy at 2-2. Very much not where I wanted to be, but still alive.

Rd 5: Collin with jundwalkers

Ours was a closer mirror than most lists I've seen, although he didn't have my dragons. I took down game 1 with my higher threat density. Game two was a close game, but he edged me out with a Rakdos's Return that emptied me on at a critical point.

Game 3. Holy shit, game 3. He goes basically all-in on Nissa making 4/4s and pressuring me as hard as he can. I have a Connections out and am digging as hard as I can for Mortars. I finally hit it at like 4 life, and nuke his entire board. He ultimates Nissa (!!), killing her off for a pair of 4/4s. I trade a Stormbreath for one of them, and throw a Caryatid in front of the other, dropping to 2. I draw off Connections looking for a removal spell, and don't get there. I'm pretty sure that I forgot details of this game, but I remember it being a fantastic one.

Of note: he was on 1 Vraska and 1 Liliana Vess, and the Vess won him game 2, as it tutored up the Return that blew me out. I stole his Vess tech for Saturday, where it also won me a game and could've won me another if I'd played it smarter.

Rd 6: AJ Kerrigan with Jund Aggro (he got a deck tech if you want to see his list)

Aggro is usually rough for jundwalkers, but my list is a bit better than most vs it. I played this match pretty well, I feel -- being careful about when I was blocking because he had a bunch of bloodrush creatures to pump and kill Caryatids and Coursers. I eventually 1-for-1'd him out, despite having to deal with multiple bestow creatures and Crippling Blights on my Coursers so they couldn't block. Game two he tore my face off, and game three he mulled harshly and had a 2-creature hand which I just killed everything.

Rd 7: Billy with UW (Spheres build)

Game one I get punished for my Confluences and Llanowar Wastes, as he has like double Mutavault + Elspeth. I Return him for a million and kill his Elspeth + empty him, but I'm so low on life that he just kills me before I can recover -- which is a shame because if you can empty UW's hand, you usually win. Just cost me so much to get there.

Game two I have Slaughter Games your Revs into Mind Rot you into Stormbreath chain and he dies really hard.

Game three I brick a crucial land drop when he taps out on turn 5 for Archangel of Thune. If I'd made my land drop, I could've slammed Vraska to nuke it and taken over the game, but instead his Archangel got to go nuts with Mutavault and I was vastly too far behind by the time I made some land drops. Of amusing note: Stormbreath brickwalled his Angel to the point where he had to Verdict to get rid of it. Unfortunately he had a counterspell for my Golgari Charm that was going to attempt to regen my dragon for ultimate blowout.

I dropped at 3-4 rather than play the last round for glory. I'm still actually pretty content in my performance at the invitational. Most of the games I lost were razor's edge losses and could've gone either way -- I feel I did about the best I could with what was given me. I'm still salty about the round one loss to RUG, but realistically that karma balanced itself out after my effortless victory over Sneak. The only match that I feel I straight up lost hard was vs UW Blade -- everything else was slight errors on my part or just variance.

I will note that I'm definitely hungry to get back to the invitational next year.

------------------

I'm not going to talk about the standard open, because I think I've talked about that enough as is. If you want my thoughts on it, or if you have a major standard event coming up and you want my list, I'll be happy to share -- just PM me. I went 5-1, and then lost 2 in a row to good matchups to go 5-3, at which point I didn't feel it was worth 2 hours of my time to try to win $50, so I dropped and headed out to relax a bit before Sunday.

------------------

Sunday report will be pretty quick.

Rd 1: Abe with Elves

He flashes me a Symbiote while he's shuffling, so I know what he's on. It doesn't matter, as he wins the die roll and I mull to a 6 that's strong but has no Therapy and only 1 land. I don't draw lands to go with the Toxic Deluge in my hand, and I die with my opponent only seeing Forest + Top. I opted not to play the Explorer in my hand to deny him information. As a result, he puts me on UG 12post.

Game two I mull to 6 again, I have a Deed, Top, Council's Judgment, something else, and two lands. Good enough. He makes a Nettle Sentinel on turn 1. I just play a land and ship back. He Thoughtseizes me, takes my Deed, and plays a Dryad Arbor. I top, find my third land, and Judgment his Sentinel. He goes into his third turn with Bayou + Dryad Arbor, and kills me. Glimpse into double Quirion Ranger + Cradle into Heritage into bullshit. He actually screws up and gives me a draw step when he could've just NO'd for Hoof and straight killed me, but he passed turn for some godforsaken reason. I guess he got confused because none of his creatures could attack and forgot Hoof had haste or something. Anyway, Toxic Deluge is not the top card of my deck and I am not able to punish him. It is, however, the 4th card down -- immediately under my Top. Fuck.

So I'm hilarious degrees of tilted after that.

Rd 2: Tom with UW Blade

This time I know exactly what my opponent is doing. He has typical UW Blade stuff, and I correctly identify him immediately. I'll spare all of the gory details of game one, but suffice to say the grind is real. I have him dead on board to Sigarda at one point, until he Brainstorms, shuffles, Ponders, shuffles, and Ponders again to hit a Council's Judgment. He then Snaps the Judgment back to deal with something else and stabilizes to win game 1.

Game two he Dust Bowls me out of the game, since I sideboarded out 3 of my Veterans and he StP'd the one that I had left. Top couldn't find me either a Carpet or any of my other lands. I Therapy him a couple of times throughout the game and he's always completely loaded with multiple Judgments, Snapcasters, Verdicts, StP, Counterspells, Jaces, you name it -- he had it.

0-2, drop, because good god am I disgusted with magic at this point.

This leads me into: theory talk time!

------------------------------

So, Junk has a problem. It's called blue superiority.

I correctly identified that Scapewish has no lategame, as mentioned earlier. The problem is, Junk is built entirely on going long and out-attritioning the blue decks -- which, don't get me wrong -- it's always been able to do before. It plays a lot of very hard to deal with threats, spread across a variety of card types, and has generally been able to fulfill its mission statement: smash delver, outgrind fair blue / jund, and sideboard into a combo deck's nightmare.

One specific leg of this trifecta is gone now. Junk can no longer outgrind fair blue decks. I was under the impression that I could -- but it's just too hard now. Most of the fair blue decks are running 2 copies of Council's Judgment between main and side, but they have the added advantage of Snapcaster alongside their traditional card advantage (which they've always had) to just outpace us. Rector's enchantments aren't capable of carrying games, because they just hit a Judgment. Or, you know, the Rector itself will eat a Judgment -- because -more- playable exile removal. This also makes graveyard recursion even worse. Sigarda used to be untouchable, to the extent where I wanted to cut every non-Sigarda threat in the deck and just ride her to victory while controlling the rest of the game. Instead, she's extremely touchable now. Reaper of the Wilds was another powerful 4-drop that I was experimenting with before shifting back to Master of the Wild Hunt. Hexproof? Doesn't matter. Nom it anyway.

The only potential saving grace for junk colored lists would be to cut the entire Rector package in exchange for more power -- essentially a move back to the old "Big Rock" style lists. Cut both Rectors, cut the Whip (or Nightmare, or whatever). Put in powerful 3-drops and 4-drops and just try to overload their Council's Judgments and Swords to Plowshares.

Still, this isn't a style that I personally want to play. Some power is good, but I personally prefer recursion, attrition, and toolboxing to raw power.

This basically means I need to either fix Scapewish somehow, or actively work on getting a BUG list running. I think that BUG is probably the correct call, but I want to wait and see what Khans has to offer before making any real movement there. I do know that there will be at least 2 Notion Thieves in any BUG list that I play. Thief is criminally underplayed in legacy as a whole, and Nic Fit is a perfect home for him. Notion Thief also partially solves the problem that Junk is having -- if they can't cantrip/Jace their way to more Snapcasters and removal and etc, the fair blue decks should pretty much fold. I also know that there will be a copy of Future Sight somewhere in the 76. If the fair blue decks want card advantage, I'll show 'em card advantage. Shardless BUG hasn't got anything on that.

--------------------------

Spoiler talk:

The Sultai legend (1bug 3/3 mill 3 + makes a zombie when CiP or attacks if a creature in those cards milled) is so close to being good enough that it's not even funny. The problem is that you only get a SINGLE zombie despite how many creatures you might mill. If you could mill 2 Explorers and get a pair of 2/2s, I would be 100% on board. As it is, though, you only get one guy -- and short of going heavy on graveyard interaction (dangerous), his value probably isn't worth it. It is worth remembering, though, that he perfectly resets Top, even though he probably dies if he attacks into most board states in legacy.

The Abzan legend (wbg 4/4 any time an opp creature is put into grave from anywhere, exile it; whenever it attacks put a +1/+1 counter on another attacking creature) is pretty insane. 4/4 for 3 mana (zenithable) is really strong, plus it's potent maindeckable graveyard hate, plus it has a lot of synergy with Spikes of various types. Too bad Junk has all of the above lists problems. I'll definitely be getting a foil copy for my playable legacy creatures binder, though. This thing is good.

End Hostilities is an amusing sweeper which is conditionally playable in some versions. It's awfully good at killing Stoneblade. I can't see ever running more than one or two copies, and it would have to be a specific, sweeper-oriented list -- I think that most versions would rather run Deluge / K-Grip / etc.

Sorin, Solemn Visitor is powerful. I'm not sure which of him or Lord of Innistrad is more powerful for the shell, but he's definitely worthy of consideration. Perma-lifelink is pretty sweet, plus he can protect himself against Delvers by making 2/2 flyers. The emblem is ridiculous against most fair decks -- it's a 1-sided Abyss.

Sultai Charm is pretty sweet. It kills basically any non-planeswalker, and if you don't need it to kill something, it at least draws 2 cards to help you find something relevant. I'm not sure if it'll be good enough to see play in legacy, but I could see it as a 1- or 2-of. It's worse removal than Abrupt Decay, but it's so much more flexible -- and it can kill Batterskull in response to a bounce, which is very relevant.

Sarkhan is good but probably not good enough. He has no way to ramp to his ultimate without becoming a dragon and thus opening himself to Swords, and if he ever has to kill anything with his -3, good luck ever getting to ultimate.

That concludes this mega-post.

[Tom4ik]

@ firepaw3 - You are totally right that what this deck that I played lacked was some late game win cons. I like that list you posted. I think TS is better than IOK but I wonder if 7 total discard is better than cutting a few of those for probes. I think probe is super strong and would rather have that in my opener with therapy than an additional discard spell. It replaces itself late game as well.
- Part of my goal with this build was to see if a nic fit with MD force was viable but maintaining enough blue is kind of tough in this shell.
- I still think Bug is where I want to be moving this deck to. Part of what I have been finding with Nic-fit decks is that we are spending cards ramping into cards that while powerful are not always worth spending resources doing. Thragtusk and thrun are good creatures but I am spending slots in my deck and cards from my hand to play those as opposed to just jamming goyf, sfm or shardless agent.
- also, as much fun as SDT is brainstorm and jace are more fun.

[Arianrhod]

@ firepaw3 - You are totally right that what this deck that I played lacked was some late game win cons. I like that list you posted. I think TS is better than IOK but I wonder if 7 total discard is better than cutting a few of those for probes. I think probe is super strong and would rather have that in my opener with therapy than an additional discard spell. It replaces itself late game as well.
- Part of my goal with this build was to see if a nic fit with MD force was viable but maintaining enough blue is kind of tough in this shell.
- I still think Bug is where I want to be moving this deck to. Part of what I have been finding with Nic-fit decks is that we are spending cards ramping into cards that while powerful are not always worth spending resources doing. Thragtusk and thrun are good creatures but I am spending slots in my deck and cards from my hand to play those as opposed to just jamming goyf, sfm or shardless agent.
- also, as much fun as SDT is brainstorm and jace are more fun.

Of note:

From playing on the "other side" from Force of Will a lot, it's worth remembering that Force of Will synergizes nicely with Veteran. It's good early defense, and after a Veteran (let alone two), the card is very hardcastable and isn't -CA anymore. My thoughts on Force in BUG is that, pending room etc obviously, I'd like to have a 2-2 split between main and side. I don't think that we either can squeeze in all 4 nor do we really want to, but some number of them main is good.

I won't be touching G.Probe with a ten foot pole. I hate the idea of taking up deck space for no reason other than making Therapy better. I'd rather run a removal spell or a monster. Nic Fit isn't a combo deck that wants to make its deck smaller.

I'll also still probably be running at least a 1-of Top, maybe 2 pending deck construction with Future Sight, even if I am running Brainstorm. Top's just too good in any kind of grindy game.

[Firepaw3]

@ firepaw3 - You are totally right that what this deck that I played lacked was some late game win cons. I like that list you posted. I think TS is better than IOK but I wonder if 7 total discard is better than cutting a few of those for probes. I think probe is super strong and would rather have that in my opener with therapy than an additional discard spell. It replaces itself late game as well.
- Part of my goal with this build was to see if a nic fit with MD force was viable but maintaining enough blue is kind of tough in this shell.
- I still think Bug is where I want to be moving this deck to. Part of what I have been finding with Nic-fit decks is that we are spending cards ramping into cards that while powerful are not always worth spending resources doing. Thragtusk and thrun are good creatures but I am spending slots in my deck and cards from my hand to play those as opposed to just jamming goyf, sfm or shardless agent.
- also, as much fun as SDT is brainstorm and jace are more fun.

IOK is to keep life high and stop early threats like delver t1, TS might be better now, but i havent played the list recently enough to judge.
The discard is better then probe because it gives you more game vs. combo, 7 discard is better than mulling to it vs SnT and Belcher decks, also works well with extirpate/surgical out of the board
the problem with FOW is that it is hard to play enough blue in the deck, and alot of times you will be wanting to cast your blue spells anyway, not to mention it hurting your fair MU's if you play it main

[Tom4ik]

@arianrhod
-Now that you mention it about probe I actually might like cutting some or all of those as it would open up a couple more slots for finishers which was part of what I was missing. I might have just been converted from a probe list lol. I do see the mcdarby walker list did run the full 4 for what its worth.
- If you go the future sight plan I like top in there. I think a trinket name package would also be good in that situation (either mai9n or board depending on how much of a toolbox fan you are) as the TM can always be a top for value if you dont need a spellbomb, pithing needle, etc
- I might add a few more smaller creaures with utility and add a diabilical intent, that card is so strong when it works...
Also, that new bug legend doesnt seem very good to be honest, its expensive and i think unless you optimize a list to abuse a raveyard (delve, loam, stronghold, witness) it will be too slow.

[pfiremc13]

Due to arianrhod's comment on junk, I'll look into a build with 2 or 3 selvala--it will help to either outgrind the opponent or overload their removal. I might also try courser of kruphix.


This is the world we live in. Complaining about it won't make it go away. I bitched internally for a long time about Sneak and Show, and then I got sick enough of losing to it that I maindecked some Slaughter Games -- and hey, suddenly they're the ones who were afraid of playing me instead of the other way around. There's always an answer for everything. It just involves working hard enough to find it, and being willing enough to implement it.

Life in a nutshell. Thank you.

[pfiremc13]

But first I need more practice with this deck. So it'll be a while.

[jbone2016]

Ari- In regards to junk, do you think a stoneforge package (or even a KoTR depths package) is better suited then rector right now?

[Arianrhod]

Due to arianrhod's comment on junk, I'll look into a build with 2 or 3 selvala--it will help to either outgrind the opponent or overload their removal. I might also try courser of kruphix.



Life in a nutshell. Thank you.

Yeah, there likely is an answer. It probably involves playing things like Deathrite or Scav Ooze to shut down their Snapcasters, probably add in Thrun because it's another thing that they HAVE to Judgment (along with Sigarda). Maybe some Stoneforges and Batterskulls because that's a pain in the ass for them too. More planeswalkers, too.

Realistically, shutting down Snapcaster and overloading Judgment are The Way Forward for junk builds. That involves doing things that I'm not on board with, so I'll sit here and offer commentary and opinions from the sidelines...but I'm discontinuing playing junk builds for the moment until the metagame shifts and my favored playstyle is relevant again.

[HoneyT]

The issue with the Abzan (mise well get used to it) builds in their current incarnation is their lack of card advantage. They can't realistically out-card the blue decks. Veteran Explorers simply aren't enough when the blue decks can take as much advantage as we can. When I'm experimenting and not playing Punishing Fires, I've been running Pods and Stoneforge in an Abzan build to some moderate success. Between those two cards, it gives the color combination the ability to go toe to toe card advantage wise with the blue decks.

Realistically, the only playable forms of Nic Fit currently are Punishing Fires, Pod, and Sultai (again mise well get used to it) lists. They're the only versions with enough raw card advantage to compete at this point in time. Sad, but true.

[iamajellydonut]

(mise well get used to it)

No. You know what BRG is called? Motherfucking Jund. We got Jund, Bant, Naya. Easy to say, easy to spell, easy to remember, great sounding, and each shard's name embraced the flavor of the shard itself. What's the name of that UBR hell hole? Grixis. My god they were satisfying from the first moment they were spoiled. These are qualities I can get behind. But Sultai? Azkaban? What the hell are these and what does Jeska have to do with URW?

[Arianrhod]

No. You know what BRG is called? Motherfucking Jund. We got Jund, Bant, Naya. Easy to say, easy to spell, easy to remember, great sounding, and each shard's name embraced the flavor of the shard itself. What's the name of that UBR hell hole? Grixis. My god they were satisfying from the first moment they were spoiled. These are qualities I can get behind. But Sultai? Azkaban? What the hell are these and what does Jeska have to do with URW?

Not to derail too far, but I actually don't mind Sultai. The rest of them (what the hell is the RWB one again?) can go die in a fire.

[TheArchitect]

I haven't played Nic Fit in a tournament in over a year now. I have turned to the dark side of casting Tezzerets, Stoneforges or Counterbalances, but I still skim through this thread from time to time and I have kept updated Nic Fit lists which I test occasionally. I have been thinking about Nic Fit more lately cause its a really fun deck and it seems like it is decently positioned right now, with elves being the combo deck of choice, a resurgence of mid-range GBx decks, and D&T and miracles also being not-terrible matchups. This post is basically just a collection of my (hopefully constructive) criticisms of the deck, and ways I think you guys can improve it. I'll be honest though, I probably won't be playing nic fit again too soon and I probably won't continue trying to develop these ideas too much past this post.

I agree with BWG (Askaban?) being pretty bad. Rector is not what it used to be, and no offense Kevin, but even your list where you trimmed Scuttles, there are still too many cute things. Your assessment about why fighting blues late game are spot on though.

As someone who has been on the opposite end of the table for a while, I can tell you, I always feel great when a veteran explore dies and I get to even closer to doing silly things like Snapcastering a FoW. The main issue is against the blue deck, basically all of their cards do something relevant late game. Land, STPS on an empty board, or countermagic on a losing board might be THE ONLY draws that suck. They also have ways to improve the card quality. Nic Fit has a lot more situationally terrible cards and less deck manipulation. The late game cards are not that much better than UWx decks lategame cards. Like is Thragtusk even better than a SFM? A lot of the time no. Batterskull, will in the end, overcome thrag and be more impactful. If you want to beat blue decks, you need to 1. go way over their head with value or power, (pod, pfire, PW, or scapeshift) and 2. not have so many situationally bad cards that the blue player only has to actually care about 1/3rd of the cards you draw.

1. You guys know how to do this. Pod, Pfire, Jaces/garruk/karn or scapeshift are the engines.

2. Is what I think a lot of people need to improve the most.

Its little things that add up. Here are just a few examples of specific card choices:

Play 4 tops in non-brainstorm versions that want top. I was crazy to think 3 was ok, back in the day. Top is never a bad draw, even in drawing 2-3 of them is fine. They cantrip next time you shuffle.

Maximize, your fetchlands in scapeshift. 10 mountains is fine. Yes, you'll lose 1 in 100 games because you NEEDED 11 mountains but when you draw a fetch instead of a stomping ground every 1 in 3 games, you will be much happier.

If you are playing blue play 4 brainstorms, 4 probes, 2-4 Jace, is non-negotiable. These cards are too good. About probe: Probe is secretly the best card in legacy right now. It's not about making a 56 card deck, counting as a blue card, or making therapies better (although the later is very nice). It's good because it lets you operate under prefect information. Imagine all the times you primitively blew a deed gambling their hand was just dead cards, the times you take the more aggressive play and force them to have it (which they do), all those moments where you said, "I did the right play that anyone would have done, it just wasn't the best play", cause who would have guessed his hand was his 1-of Supreme Verdict and you zenithed for Sigarda instead of thrag/thrun? I'll tell you who could have guessed: the guy with gitaxian probes in his deck.

Please, stop playing slaughter games in the MD. Just play thoughtseize or something that actually is guaranteed to effect the game. Yes, games can actually just beat S&T, and it can kinda hurt miracles, but then its bad like 95% of the rest of the time you see it. Goodstuff like thoughtseize, or abrupt decay are probably only bad closer to 30% of the time you see them.

TL;DR: In general, play more of the stuff that decent regularly, and less of the stuff that's rarely awesome and frequently lame.


------------


The below list is not perfect, but I think it a step closer to the right direction. I still think Scapewish is one of the most fun decks I have ever played in magic (thanks Kevin), and I think it is actually decently positioned right now. If I were to play it tomorrow I would run this:

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scapeshift
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 From the Ashes
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games

I have not tested as much with BUG, so take this more of a grain of salt, but again I think something like this good starting place for the "BUG goodstuff" approach which Kevin mentioned. I also think BUG Pod is a great approach (possibly the best approach), I just have not had time to test it really.


2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Force of Will
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Force of Will
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Another option which is possibly better for goodstuff, the above MD, but dropping titan, 1 tarpit, 1 GSZ for a 2nd Thrag and bringing the 2 Garruks MD. Titan, isn't great, but I dont think there is a better option yet. It is also possible Nissa is better than Primal Hunter. I have not tried her yet.

EDIT: A few things I forgot: BUG SB probably should have Swan Songs, and Notion Thief. Maybe wolf run in scapeshift. Maybe Stronghold in BUG. Maybe reclaimation sage in the 75 of both.

[Ralf]

I haven't played Nic Fit in a tournament in over a year now. I have turned to the dark side of casting Tezzerets, Stoneforges or Counterbalances, but I still skim through this thread from time to time and I have kept updated Nic Fit lists which I test occasionally. I have been thinking about Nic Fit more lately cause its a really fun deck and it seems like it is decently positioned right now, with elves being the combo deck of choice, a resurgence of mid-range GBx decks, and D&T and miracles also being not-terrible matchups. This post is basically just a collection of my (hopefully constructive) criticisms of the deck, and ways I think you guys can improve it. I'll be honest though, I probably won't be playing nic fit again too soon and I probably won't continue trying to develop these ideas too much past this post.

I agree with BWG (Askaban?) being pretty bad. Rector is not what it used to be, and no offense Kevin, but even your list where you trimmed Scuttles, there are still too many cute things. Your assessment about why fighting blues late game are spot on though.

As someone who has been on the opposite end of the table for a while, I can tell you, I always feel great when a veteran explore dies and I get to even closer to doing silly things like Snapcastering a FoW. The main issue is against the blue deck, basically all of their cards do something relevant late game. Land, STPS on an empty board, or countermagic on a losing board might be THE ONLY draws that suck. They also have ways to improve the card quality. Nic Fit has a lot more situationally terrible cards and less deck manipulation. The late game cards are not that much better than UWx decks lategame cards. Like is Thragtusk even better than a SFM? A lot of the time no. Batterskull, will in the end, overcome thrag and be more impactful. If you want to beat blue decks, you need to 1. go way over their head with value or power, (pod, pfire, PW, or scapeshift) and 2. not have so many situationally bad cards that the blue player only has to actually care about 1/3rd of the cards you draw.

1. You guys know how to do this. Pod, Pfire, Jaces/garruk/karn or scapeshift are the engines.

2. Is what I think a lot of people need to improve the most.

Agree.

@Arian: After reading your report, here are a couple of notes:

- I disagree with you as I think Junk Fit has some unrevealed potential, but not based on Rector (even if I know that you have a strong love affair with Rector). From my testing, one of the best Junk build atm is Qweerios's list packing 3 pod. No cute things, pretty straight forward.

- I wouldn't leave home without some pieces of gravehate nowadays. You were lacking some, you got kicked in the ballz...:frown: In a list with 4 GSZ, it is criminal not to play a 1-of Ooze. That little guy is a f. beater.

@ NicFit Posters

I'm glad this thread is pretty alive and I enjoy very much the whole diversity of Nic Fit.decks

For sanctioned events:
I am currently playing Punishing Fit (since marsh-14).
I have been playing Walker Fit (Jan to Mar -14) for 3 months and Scapeshift for 8 months (Apr. to Dec-13) .

1) Walker Fit

I started to tune a BUG walker list before McDarby's list was printed. I had some strong results with it but I was unable to really "fix" the whole 75 against its bad MU.
If you want to fight back "Combo" and play force of will, blue card count is unfortunately the key thing and to reach the perfect numbers, you'll have to go deep in blue and the whole veteran+therapy+GSZ+beater magical package can no longer be sustained.


2) Scapeshift

I played Scape @ 1 GP and 2 big events (800 ppls).
I lost one win & in (Omnishow) and other times I dropped @ 5-3 (thanks to S&T and MUD).
Scape is definitely fun & powerful (topdeck scape & win is nothing to scorn at) but it is also the kind of deck that can shxxxt on you twice in a row. For testing purpose, I also play miracles and sometimes you also brainstorm/ponder/top/fetch into oblivion but never twice in 3 games...

3) Side notes

Legacy is unforgiving. Nic Fit should not be the deck of cute/cool things.
Since playing the archetype (more than 1-year & an half now), I tried a lot of roads, including cute things (a lot) and I have come to rationalize every builds or attempts to build a Nic Fit version in a format wherein everything could be fated on T2/T3/T4.
The balance between lands/business & beaters spells is very very tenuous. And this is even more true in a deck without brainstorm.
So to speak, the mana curve & mana base were drastically rationalized (to decrease from one to two the land count & to add more business spell), very high CMC cards were cut as the non magical christmas magic games will only allow you to sacrifice a veteran once in a game so that your deck should be optimally functional with 4-5 lands etc...

Final word &/or feeling

I know we are by design a veteran+cabal therapy deck, but I have the intense feeling that if I NEED a dying veteran to play my deck, then we are doing it wrong. When veteran is dying, we should win the game and not just starting playing it...

Be bold but not cold.

[whatwas]

I haven't played Nic Fit in a tournament in over a year now. I have turned to the dark side of casting Tezzerets, Stoneforges or Counterbalances, but I still skim through this thread from time to time and I have kept updated Nic Fit lists which I test occasionally. I have been thinking about Nic Fit more lately cause its a really fun deck and it seems like it is decently positioned right now, with elves being the combo deck of choice, a resurgence of mid-range GBx decks, and D&T and miracles also being not-terrible matchups. This post is basically just a collection of my (hopefully constructive) criticisms of the deck, and ways I think you guys can improve it. I'll be honest though, I probably won't be playing nic fit again too soon and I probably won't continue trying to develop these ideas too much past this post.

I agree with BWG (Askaban?) being pretty bad. Rector is not what it used to be, and no offense Kevin, but even your list where you trimmed Scuttles, there are still too many cute things. Your assessment about why fighting blues late game are spot on though.

As someone who has been on the opposite end of the table for a while, I can tell you, I always feel great when a veteran explore dies and I get to even closer to doing silly things like Snapcastering a FoW. The main issue is against the blue deck, basically all of their cards do something relevant late game. Land, STPS on an empty board, or countermagic on a losing board might be THE ONLY draws that suck. They also have ways to improve the card quality. Nic Fit has a lot more situationally terrible cards and less deck manipulation. The late game cards are not that much better than UWx decks lategame cards. Like is Thragtusk even better than a SFM? A lot of the time no. Batterskull, will in the end, overcome thrag and be more impactful. If you want to beat blue decks, you need to 1. go way over their head with value or power, (pod, pfire, PW, or scapeshift) and 2. not have so many situationally bad cards that the blue player only has to actually care about 1/3rd of the cards you draw.

1. You guys know how to do this. Pod, Pfire, Jaces/garruk/karn or scapeshift are the engines.

2. Is what I think a lot of people need to improve the most.

Its little things that add up. Here are just a few examples of specific card choices:

Play 4 tops in non-brainstorm versions that want top. I was crazy to think 3 was ok, back in the day. Top is never a bad draw, even in drawing 2-3 of them is fine. They cantrip next time you shuffle.

Maximize, your fetchlands in scapeshift. 10 mountains is fine. Yes, you'll lose 1 in 100 games because you NEEDED 11 mountains but when you draw a fetch instead of a stomping ground every 1 in 3 games, you will be much happier.

If you are playing blue play 4 brainstorms, 4 probes, 2-4 Jace, is non-negotiable. These cards are too good. About probe: Probe is secretly the best card in legacy right now. It's not about making a 56 card deck, counting as a blue card, or making therapies better (although the later is very nice). It's good because it lets you operate under prefect information. Imagine all the times you primitively blew a deed gambling their hand was just dead cards, the times you take the more aggressive play and force them to have it (which they do), all those moments where you said, "I did the right play that anyone would have done, it just wasn't the best play", cause who would have guessed his hand was his 1-of Supreme Verdict and you zenithed for Sigarda instead of thrag/thrun? I'll tell you who could have guessed: the guy with gitaxian probes in his deck.

Please, stop playing slaughter games in the MD. Just play thoughtseize or something that actually is guaranteed to effect the game. Yes, games can actually just beat S&T, and it can kinda hurt miracles, but then its bad like 95% of the rest of the time you see it. Goodstuff like thoughtseize, or abrupt decay are probably only bad closer to 30% of the time you see them.

TL;DR: In general, play more of the stuff that decent regularly, and less of the stuff that's rarely awesome and frequently lame.


------------


The below list is not perfect, but I think it a step closer to the right direction. I still think Scapewish is one of the most fun decks I have ever played in magic (thanks Kevin), and I think it is actually decently positioned right now. If I were to play it tomorrow I would run this:

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scapeshift
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 From the Ashes
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games

I have not tested as much with BUG, so take this more of a grain of salt, but again I think something like this good starting place for the "BUG goodstuff" approach which Kevin mentioned. I also think BUG Pod is a great approach (possibly the best approach), I just have not had time to test it really.


2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Force of Will
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Force of Will
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Another option which is possibly better for goodstuff, the above MD, but dropping titan, 1 tarpit, 1 GSZ for a 2nd Thrag and bringing the 2 Garruks MD. Titan, isn't great, but I dont think there is a better option yet. It is also possible Nissa is better than Primal Hunter. I have not tried her yet.

EDIT: A few things I forgot: BUG SB probably should have Swan Songs, and Notion Thief. Maybe wolf run in scapeshift. Maybe Stronghold in BUG. Maybe reclaimation sage in the 75 of both.
I also agree. And another reason why this deck archetype suffers as a whole is some players believe that starting out with nic fit might be cheaper than buy the wastelands and duals for a more streamlined deck. I'm starting to lean towards wanting to interrupt the next guys mana base while playing my own minimal costing spells For the value rather than casting pod with an all creature deck and less interactive spells, or dropping explorer and giving the guy who actually carry a few basics the upper hand with his cheaper creatures and deck fixing cantrips. Once you give a brainstorming deck 2 extra land, even though you cabal therapy him twice, will more than likely hurt you more than help. Just my thoughts on the archetype.

[Tom4ik]

I also agree that the best way to position this deck is that of vet as a mana accel tool but not a required card. I will be playing punishing fire for the next couple of weeks I think but eventually I want to move to a Bug list. I think being in those colors gives the deck enough tools to fight most of its problems, combo decks, consistency, and the efficiency of cards.
- The ability to open up stack interaction to go along with hand disruption gives us a lot more game, a slow clock is still a problem but that can be figured out.
- Top and Gsz are both great tools at fighting variance but both of them bleed into the issue of efficiency. Without a vet going off both of those cards can be hard to use in the early stages of the game.
- I also think a lot of what (at least in my punishing fire list) we are ramping into is not always worth the cost of doing so. What I would like to get to is the point where I am playing a deck that is fine even just making its land drop but if a vet goes off then the deck is super charged. Similar to how jund or shardless bug can play fine without DRS but when they get one the entire game is accelerated for them.

For people on the BUG version, have any of you tested a gifts ungiven version? a 4 mana instant speed draw the 3rd and 4th best card in your deck is powerful. Especially if you create a pile where you get the card eventually.
jace, witness, stronghold, liliana.
decay, deed, deluge, witness
jace, lily, garruk, witness
All of those piles can be game ending on the right board. this also would allow a tool box sideboard of powerful options. I think the blue version would love an instant speed draw spell as it allows you to keep up hardcast force, blowing a deed, decay but still maximize mana and not just passing a turn and giving the other player time to draw out of it.

[Arianrhod]

I also agree that the best way to position this deck is that of vet as a mana accel tool but not a required card. I will be playing punishing fire for the next couple of weeks I think but eventually I want to move to a Bug list. I think being in those colors gives the deck enough tools to fight most of its problems, combo decks, consistency, and the efficiency of cards.
- The ability to open up stack interaction to go along with hand disruption gives us a lot more game, a slow clock is still a problem but that can be figured out.
- Top and Gsz are both great tools at fighting variance but both of them bleed into the issue of efficiency. Without a vet going off both of those cards can be hard to use in the early stages of the game.
- I also think a lot of what (at least in my punishing fire list) we are ramping into is not always worth the cost of doing so. What I would like to get to is the point where I am playing a deck that is fine even just making its land drop but if a vet goes off then the deck is super charged. Similar to how jund or shardless bug can play fine without DRS but when they get one the entire game is accelerated for them.

For people on the BUG version, have any of you tested a gifts ungiven version? a 4 mana instant speed draw the 3rd and 4th best card in your deck is powerful. Especially if you create a pile where you get the card eventually.
jace, witness, stronghold, liliana.
decay, deed, deluge, witness
jace, lily, garruk, witness
All of those piles can be game ending on the right board. this also would allow a tool box sideboard of powerful options. I think the blue version would love an instant speed draw spell as it allows you to keep up hardcast force, blowing a deed, decay but still maximize mana and not just passing a turn and giving the other player time to draw out of it.

There's an issue with this talk of "Veteran is just an accelerator." We need to build the deck around Veteran because Veteran takes a lot more to activate than Deathrite does in jund/shardless. Deathrite says "are you running fetches and/or possibly wastelands?" Veteran says "are you running Therapies, 7+ basics, and Zeniths?"

Be careful about going too far down this road, or you may find yourself losing your identity and better off playing junk/jund instead of nic fit.

[Tom4ik]

I do not feel a deck that needs a vet to go off in order to have a game is going to be consistent enough over the course of multiple matches. I understand that vet requires more in order to make him good. He also allows more busted plays. A certain amount of extra variance will always be inherent because both pieces of the package are inconsistent cards. Vet can be one of the best cards in the match or one of the worst. Cabal therapy can be an amazing play or a 1 mana to look at their hand.

What I think people differ on is do you want to accept this variance but how much do you hedge against it by playing brainstorm, jace, SDT, gsz vs how much do you want to maximize the effect once a vet goes off. It is tough to figure out how much you want to depend on vet. Though in my view the effect from vet is not enough to consistently always win you the game that I dont want to make a deck that dependent on him. That said, I do think its effect is powerful and in the right shell can be an amazing engine that lets you play busted cards.

[Ralf]

I also agree that the best way to position this deck is that of vet as a mana accel tool but not a required card. I will be playing punishing fire for the next couple of weeks I think but eventually I want to move to a Bug list. I think being in those colors gives the deck enough tools to fight most of its problems, combo decks, consistency, and the efficiency of cards.

For people on the BUG version, have any of you tested a gifts ungiven version? a 4 mana instant speed draw the 3rd and 4th best card in your deck is powerful. Especially if you create a pile where you get the card eventually.
jace, witness, stronghold, liliana.
decay, deed, deluge, witness
jace, lily, garruk, witness
All of those piles can be game ending on the right board. this also would allow a tool box sideboard of powerful options. I think the blue version would love an instant speed draw spell as it allows you to keep up hardcast force, blowing a deed, decay but still maximize mana and not just passing a turn and giving the other player time to draw out of it.

I had to face 3 major issues with Walker BUG Fit.
- Punishing Fire is a real deal and we have no way to interact with it G1 (save the miser Ooze and a few DRS which are easy to play around)
- Manlands are another real deal.
- Which beater do I play ?

If you want a glimpse of my former list go page 317 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=776376&highlight=#post776376) of this very thread !
But the more I worked on this list, the less Nic Fittish it looked...

[GtF]

TheArchitect has it pretty much spot-on. The tricky thing with Nic-Fit is having the right cards at the right times - you need big spells to make use of your extra lands but not too many or they'll just clunk up your hand. You need basic lands but it makes sense to try and get by with the minimum number possible since they are basically half-colorless lands early in the game. This is why I ended up cutting phyrexian tower from the pod deck - the sacrifice effect just wasn't worth it tapping for colorless when there's already 6 basics in the list.
The other issue of the big green cards not even being better than the blue cards (or stoneforge) is another one I've run into. The pod deck in particular is very low on high-end bombs (just grave titan and kinda thragtusk) and I've occasionally been in situations where I can pod without interruption and I still couldn't manage to beat a TNN + batterskull (pod targets had been killed by swords earlier). It doesn't happen often but it does happen. It's the price paid for having a lot more early game oriented cards and I think it is worth it.
I have had to come to grips with the fact that ramping certain decks with veteran explorer is better for them than it is for me. It took a while to figure out SB plans where I could effectively board them out, but it had to be done.

For gifts in BUG, it seems like you'd really have to be doing something to abuse gifts (loaming is the first that comes to mind, punishing fire the second) to make it worthwhile.

[Arianrhod]

I don't think anything short of reanimating something enormous is good enough with Gifts. I'm talking fast Primeval -> Depths/Stage, Tidespout, or Griselbrand levels of broken. The advantage is that Gifts can always double Tutor for something when you're not reanimating, and you can actually cast your monsters reliably -- but there's nothing else that's powerful enough to justify running it. This is speaking as someone for whom Gifts is one of my two favorite cards -EVER-. Most of the time, it just isn't going to be good enough.

[Tom4ik]

Before I sold all my cards years ago and had some vintage decks I just loved gifts so maybe it just me wanting to get that card to work in legacy but its just such a fun card I love to play with it again and feel if any deck can make a gifts pile work it would be this one.

[Ralf]

Before I sold all my cards years ago and had some vintage decks I just loved gifts so maybe it just me wanting to get that card to work in legacy but its just such a fun card I love to play with it again and feel if any deck can make a gifts pile work it would be this one.

Then, you should also consider straight BUG Control.

[Arianrhod]

I might have just given myself an idea.

[Whitefaces]

I used to have a deck that used gifts as a pure value card.

Off the top of my head:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Terastodon

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tamiyo
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Gifts Ungiven

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower

I can't remember the SB unfortunately, I think it was full of Thoughtseizes, FoWs etc. It was a blast to play and more powerful than I expected really.

[Surfkatt]

I haven't played Nic Fit in a tournament in over a year now. I have turned to the dark side of casting Tezzerets, Stoneforges or Counterbalances, but I still skim through this thread from time to time and I have kept updated Nic Fit lists which I test occasionally. I have been thinking about Nic Fit more lately cause its a really fun deck and it seems like it is decently positioned right now, with elves being the combo deck of choice, a resurgence of mid-range GBx decks, and D&T and miracles also being not-terrible matchups. This post is basically just a collection of my (hopefully constructive) criticisms of the deck, and ways I think you guys can improve it. I'll be honest though, I probably won't be playing nic fit again too soon and I probably won't continue trying to develop these ideas too much past this post.

I agree with BWG (Askaban?) being pretty bad. Rector is not what it used to be, and no offense Kevin, but even your list where you trimmed Scuttles, there are still too many cute things. Your assessment about why fighting blues late game are spot on though.

As someone who has been on the opposite end of the table for a while, I can tell you, I always feel great when a veteran explore dies and I get to even closer to doing silly things like Snapcastering a FoW. The main issue is against the blue deck, basically all of their cards do something relevant late game. Land, STPS on an empty board, or countermagic on a losing board might be THE ONLY draws that suck. They also have ways to improve the card quality. Nic Fit has a lot more situationally terrible cards and less deck manipulation. The late game cards are not that much better than UWx decks lategame cards. Like is Thragtusk even better than a SFM? A lot of the time no. Batterskull, will in the end, overcome thrag and be more impactful. If you want to beat blue decks, you need to 1. go way over their head with value or power, (pod, pfire, PW, or scapeshift) and 2. not have so many situationally bad cards that the blue player only has to actually care about 1/3rd of the cards you draw.

1. You guys know how to do this. Pod, Pfire, Jaces/garruk/karn or scapeshift are the engines.

2. Is what I think a lot of people need to improve the most.

Its little things that add up. Here are just a few examples of specific card choices:

Play 4 tops in non-brainstorm versions that want top. I was crazy to think 3 was ok, back in the day. Top is never a bad draw, even in drawing 2-3 of them is fine. They cantrip next time you shuffle.

Maximize, your fetchlands in scapeshift. 10 mountains is fine. Yes, you'll lose 1 in 100 games because you NEEDED 11 mountains but when you draw a fetch instead of a stomping ground every 1 in 3 games, you will be much happier.

If you are playing blue play 4 brainstorms, 4 probes, 2-4 Jace, is non-negotiable. These cards are too good. About probe: Probe is secretly the best card in legacy right now. It's not about making a 56 card deck, counting as a blue card, or making therapies better (although the later is very nice). It's good because it lets you operate under prefect information. Imagine all the times you primitively blew a deed gambling their hand was just dead cards, the times you take the more aggressive play and force them to have it (which they do), all those moments where you said, "I did the right play that anyone would have done, it just wasn't the best play", cause who would have guessed his hand was his 1-of Supreme Verdict and you zenithed for Sigarda instead of thrag/thrun? I'll tell you who could have guessed: the guy with gitaxian probes in his deck.

Please, stop playing slaughter games in the MD. Just play thoughtseize or something that actually is guaranteed to effect the game. Yes, games can actually just beat S&T, and it can kinda hurt miracles, but then its bad like 95% of the rest of the time you see it. Goodstuff like thoughtseize, or abrupt decay are probably only bad closer to 30% of the time you see them.

TL;DR: In general, play more of the stuff that decent regularly, and less of the stuff that's rarely awesome and frequently lame.


------------


The below list is not perfect, but I think it a step closer to the right direction. I still think Scapewish is one of the most fun decks I have ever played in magic (thanks Kevin), and I think it is actually decently positioned right now. If I were to play it tomorrow I would run this:

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scapeshift
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 From the Ashes
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games

I have not tested as much with BUG, so take this more of a grain of salt, but again I think something like this good starting place for the "BUG goodstuff" approach which Kevin mentioned. I also think BUG Pod is a great approach (possibly the best approach), I just have not had time to test it really.


2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Force of Will
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

#60

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Force of Will
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Another option which is possibly better for goodstuff, the above MD, but dropping titan, 1 tarpit, 1 GSZ for a 2nd Thrag and bringing the 2 Garruks MD. Titan, isn't great, but I dont think there is a better option yet. It is also possible Nissa is better than Primal Hunter. I have not tried her yet.

EDIT: A few things I forgot: BUG SB probably should have Swan Songs, and Notion Thief. Maybe wolf run in scapeshift. Maybe Stronghold in BUG. Maybe reclaimation sage in the 75 of both.

Question about your Scapewish list, Why only one huntmaster? Most lists I see seem to have 2 or more. Also, why the Coursers? Have they been good for you? I used to run them in my modern Jund scapshift list and I cut them from there because they did not do enough. I am glad I wasn't the only one raising my eyebrows at all the MD slaughter games. I also just noticed the lack of wood elves, have they been under-preforming too? TBH your list is pretty different than alot of lists out there and I just wanted to know why you are making some of the choices you are.

[TheArchitect]

Question about your Scapewish list, Why only one huntmaster? Most lists I see seem to have 2 or more. Also, why the Coursers? Have they been good for you? I used to run them in my modern Jund scapshift list and I cut them from there because they did not do enough. I am glad I wasn't the only one raising my eyebrows at all the MD slaughter games. I also just noticed the lack of wood elves, have they been under-preforming too? TBH your list is pretty different than alot of lists out there and I just wanted to know why you are making some of the choices you are.

Courser could be wrong, but hes seems pretty good so far. The synergy with top is nice and his body and lifegain are not irrelevant. Scapewish has to play the most situationally bad cards. Course is one them, but wood elves is not any better. I always preferred Tribe elder to wood elves anyways.

I do not like huntmaster. He is almost always worse than tarmogoyf. Elves, and against a PW are the only times I am really happy to have huntmaster. I actually would not mind swapping the huntmaster for a 2nd thragtusk. I feel often like the only reason I was running HM was cause I felt like I was supposed run some cards and I had to have a 4 drop. Those are not good reasons to run a card. If you think the decks needs a back up beat down plan. HM is not the card to do that. Goyf or Ooze are much better choices.

[thotcrime]

Courser could be wrong, but hes seems pretty good so far. The synergy with top is nice and his body and lifegain are not irrelevant. Scapewish has to play the most situationally bad cards. Course is one them, but wood elves is not any better. I always preferred Tribe elder to wood elves anyways.

I do not like huntmaster. He is almost always worse than tarmogoyf. Elves, and against a PW are the only times I am really happy to have huntmaster. I actually would not mind swapping the huntmaster for a 2nd thragtusk. I feel often like the only reason I was running HM was cause I felt like I was supposed run some cards and I had to have a 4 drop. Those are not good reasons to run a card. If you think the decks needs a back up beat down plan. HM is not the card to do that. Goyf or Ooze are much better choices.

Can you provide a deck list? Talk of more Thrag makes me happy.


Also, I've been out of the legacy loop for a while. For Punishing players, what are your sideboards holding these days? Anyone running maindeck Surgical?

[pfiremc13]

How do you make a good sideboard with this deck? There are so many cards to consider individually and you also have to consider how they work together...how do you go about doing it?

[thotcrime]

How do you make a good sideboard with this deck? There are so many cards to consider individually and you also have to consider how they work together...how do you go about doing it?

As noted above, I haven't played legacy in months. But when I was actively playing, some SB cards were auto-includes. (I play Punishing NicFit)

Surgical Extraction
Red Elemental Blast
Thoughtseize
Toxic Deluge/Perish

These are all intended to give you an edge against combo (as that is PFit's weakest matchup). I also enjoyed Carpet of Flowers considering the majority of the meta is Blue.

[Qweerios]

FINALLY~

BUG Pod gets a good GSZ-able top of the curve creature.

Sagu Mauler: 4GU
Trample, Hexproof
Morph: 3GU
6/6

I am going back to the drawing board in case something better than Junk Pod comes out of it.

[Blastoderm]

FINALLY~

BUG Pod gets a good GSZ-able top of the curve creature.

Sagu Mauler: 4GU
Trample, Hexproof
Morph: 3GU
6/6

I am going back to the drawing board in case something better than Junk Pod comes out of it.

Have you had success against Miracles with any version of Pod?

[Ralf]

Courser could be wrong, but hes seems pretty good so far. The synergy with top is nice and his body and lifegain are not irrelevant. Scapewish has to play the most situationally bad cards. Course is one them, but wood elves is not any better. I always preferred Tribe elder to wood elves anyways.

I do not like huntmaster. He is almost always worse than tarmogoyf. Elves, and against a PW are the only times I am really happy to have huntmaster. I actually would not mind swapping the huntmaster for a 2nd thragtusk. I feel often like the only reason I was running HM was cause I felt like I was supposed run some cards and I had to have a 4 drop. Those are not good reasons to run a card. If you think the decks needs a back up beat down plan. HM is not the card to do that. Goyf or Ooze are much better choices.

Courser has been heavily tested by a couple of posters (including me).
It was essentially tested in Punishing version, so its role may be different in Scapeshift.

Courser is not bad BUT @CMC 3 you will likely never waste a GSZ for him. It does not impact the board and does not allow you to play an additional land per turn like say Oracle of Mul Daya -> He got the axe.

By extension, I would say its role would be very much the same in Scape:

Pros:
- Provide a better body than wood elves
- Provide life gain
- Provide more CA in the long term
- Good synergy with Top

Cons:
- Does not let you ramp.
- CA is conditional = your library's top card must be a land and you must not have already played a land this turn. It means the following logical consequence:
1) Playing him by T3= NO CA
2) GSZing for him T4= NO CA
=> which makes it finally very bad (potential CA from T4 if you have it in hand OR T5 if you GSZ for it)
- You MUST play with the top card of your library revealed. And if you are concern, YES it does matter.

All in all, if I had to state, he would not replace "wood elves" in scapeshift.
The real deal is to be able to scape as fast as possible and courser does not let you ramp.

My 2 cents.

[Bobmans]

A new clone that can copy any nonland permanent. I could see him as a one-off in BUG pod lists.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/62/21/635454228619927163.png

[iamajellydonut]

A new clone that can copy any nonland permanent. I could see him as a one-off in BUG pod lists.

Mythics continue to not make sense to me, but I wouldn't be overly surprised to see this in a 75 sometime in the future.

[Elfkid]

What about the BUG explorer with B pod and Food chain in maindeck? this decklist:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13164&iddeck=96585

Its still viable? or we need to change something?

Regards!! :D

[Arianrhod]

Here's my rough draft of a 'standard' BUG Nic Fit (no gimmicks like Pod, Food Chain, etc):

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bribery
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

----------------

Breakdown:

3/1 split between Strix and Oracle is mostly for GSZ considerations, plus Oracle can randomly be slightly better when Future Sight is out or in other corner case scenarios. It's Zenithable. etc. Might be better just as a 4th Strix, but I dunno. Worth testing.

Empath is back. This is primarily so you can tutor up Frost Titan when vs Show and Tell, but also gives you a hair bit more threat density and enables bomb access via Zenith...same thing it's always done. Note that the inclusion of Empath makes me feel better about running Diabolic Intent, because I have no issues sacrifice this thing once it's done its job.

2 maindeck Notion Thief -- I've said before that this thing is underplayed, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. It's both a draw engine and effective hate for opposing blue decks, as well as randomly enabling blowouts vs some combo decks (High Tide comes immediately to mind....nice Time Spiral bro).

Venser is still ludicrous tempo. Jace bouncing him can enable a limited amount of abuse....obviously nothing like the Deadeye decks, but he's still a reasonable card without potential for too much abuse.

Master of the Wild Hunt is simply the most threatening 4-drop green creature currently in existence. He's better than Reaper, and he's better than Chameleon Colossus. He's not better than Spike Weaver per se, but fulfills a different purpose.

Mimeoplasm allows you to rebuy any of your bombs that have been killed already, and sometimes lets you take a True-Name and make it huge on your side. Good value creature that can be either answer or threat depending on what you need. He's also impervious to graveyard hate -- his ability doesn't target, which means that opposing Deathrites need to do their thing while he's on the stack. If you Zenith him up, they don't get the opportunity to stop you from getting the juiciest of goods.

Shriekmaw is my concession to wanting both another removal spell and another creature.

Thrag is Thrag, ConSphinx is ConSphinx. Nothing to see here.

Frost Titan gets my nod for the 2nd best 6-drop in BUG colors. It has a limited amount of protection (spell pierces everything hostile that would target it), and can lock down basically any problem while simultaneously punching. Also, lolshowandtell.

2 Zeniths because there's a lot of non-green creatures in this deck, as always with BUG-colored nic fits.

Diabolic Intent because Demonic Tutor is broken. 19 creatures+2 Zenith in this list, and with the amount of card advantage present, you should be able to reliably fire it off. Also, not revealing what you tutor for enables sick blowouts with Notion Thief. It can also just get a land (more on this later).

2 Decays because Delver of Secrets exists. Blah. If I feel I can get away with it, I might try these slots as Sultai Charms post-Khans. I fully recognize that that's greedy as fuck though.

2 Jace, 2 Kiora. I have no idea if Kiora is actually good enough. I'm going to try her and find out. My gut says that she won't be good enough here, and needs to be in a full-on planeswalker control builds to actually pull her weight.

Deed, yay. Nightmare, yay. Future Sight is broken in fucking half. I shouldn't have to explain why that's here.

Tops, yay. Only two because this list has a lot of card draw // potential card draw.

Lands, yay.

Mikokoro is sick tech with Notion Thief + ConSphinx. I do this to people in vintage, and it's both amazing and hilarious -- the exact confluence of things that I desire to be at. Even if you're not breaking it, we're back to Selvala here -- usually your things should be worth more than their things. When you've got a Thief or a Sphinx, though, you're either drawing 2 for 2, or drawing 3 they draw 1 for 2 ... both of which are completely "reasonable."

Sideboard's kind of a clusterfuck.

Bribery is amazing at shoring up random matchups (12post, MUD, etc), can take Miracles' Keranos, good vs Reanimator and Sneak...etc. Lol mirrors.

Haunting Echoes is because I couldn't really think of anything else for a good fair.dec bomb to bring in. It performed reasonably for me when I tried it in Scape, and I think it could be better here. Worth testing, not holding my breath.

3rd Decay because Delver exists.

Glen Elendras shit on most combo decks + Miracles.

Grip because Miracles, Stoneblade, random.dec.

Flusters are good vs a lot of things...generic good sideboard card. Same with Thoughtseize and Cranial.

Cliques are primarily for combo and Miracles (clique away the miracle in resp to trigger).

Deluge is for Elves and TNN decks.

Charm is basically Deluge but has random upside when you get to regen a Verdict or blow up an enchantment.

--------

Again, this is just a rough sketch before I start working on it. Thoughts/comments/etc welcome as always, unless you suggest Grave Titan.

[Tom4ik]

So where is Grave Titan? he is 10 power for 6!?!?!

kidding.

A few comments:
-First and formost, I do not agree with the lack of Brainstorm. I know it reduces your deck size which you are firmly against but I cant see that being a good enough reason to not play it. Just make sure your deck is powerful enough in what it runs that you dont need to jam multiple bombs to be winning. Take it for what thats worth....
- I do not like oracle, you should never be gsz for that effect. if you want that many 2 mana cantrips strix is better. Both the flying and deathtouch are relevant but the oracle is not.
- I do not believe you need empath, master of the hunt nor mimeoplasm. They are all situational and/or slow. If you added bstorm you wouldnt need empath anyway. I would replace mimeo plasm with smth else that is more consistently a big beater too.
- In this build with way more creatures I like the intent. You run enough late game bombs that are variable in how powerful they are that the tutor will be broken if it resolves
- I think Kiora is not right for this deck. I think the best thing about her is that she is blue so in builds with force (md/sb) that she helps with that count while being another walker with utility. I would rather see a garruk which helps make tokens for sacrifice, or the beatdown plan that this deck will be employing more often than it seems. veil cursed seems the right one as the tutor effect will be powerful here.
- I dont think mikokoro is the land to run for your colorless land. I know it has certain synergy but I dont think its worth its spot. but There is a lot of ways to abuse it here so let me know how it goes.
- I am for sure interested to see where you take this tho.
- If you do use mimeoplasm any thought on some type of intuition/gifts pile to try to make him insane?

I hope I dont sound to negative on this original deck list idea and I dont assume my thoughts are right but just some food for though on your main deck choices at first glance.

[Richard Cheese]

Oh god...maindeck Lotion Theif?

http://38.media.tumblr.com/8d2d43a7046e9b3e57dd3cb0ce860ad1/tumblr_n0liwzmn8t1rlo1q2o1_500.gif

You might have just convinced me to try this deck again.

[Arianrhod]

So where is Grave Titan? he is 10 power for 6!?!?!

kidding.

A few comments:
-First and formost, I do not agree with the lack of Brainstorm. I know it reduces your deck size which you are firmly against but I cant see that being a good enough reason to not play it. Just make sure your deck is powerful enough in what it runs that you dont need to jam multiple bombs to be winning. Take it for what thats worth....
- I do not like oracle, you should never be gsz for that effect. if you want that many 2 mana cantrips strix is better. Both the flying and deathtouch are relevant but the oracle is not.
- I do not believe you need empath, master of the hunt nor mimeoplasm. They are all situational and/or slow. If you added bstorm you wouldnt need empath anyway. I would replace mimeo plasm with smth else that is more consistently a big beater too.
- In this build with way more creatures I like the intent. You run enough late game bombs that are variable in how powerful they are that the tutor will be broken if it resolves
- I think Kiora is not right for this deck. I think the best thing about her is that she is blue so in builds with force (md/sb) that she helps with that count while being another walker with utility. I would rather see a garruk which helps make tokens for sacrifice, or the beatdown plan that this deck will be employing more often than it seems. veil cursed seems the right one as the tutor effect will be powerful here.
- I dont think mikokoro is the land to run for your colorless land. I know it has certain synergy but I dont think its worth its spot. but There is a lot of ways to abuse it here so let me know how it goes.
- I am for sure interested to see where you take this tho.
- If you do use mimeoplasm any thought on some type of intuition/gifts pile to try to make him insane?

I hope I dont sound to negative on this original deck list idea and I dont assume my thoughts are right but just some food for though on your main deck choices at first glance.

I actually originally had 3 Brainstorms along with the 2 Tops, but ended up cutting them for space when I realized that I was cutting into my creature base too much.

I can agree with Oracle probably not being good enough. I tend to like to fire off my Zeniths asap so that they can shuffle back in and be re-used...but this may just be a deck where it's wiser to sandbag them for a few turns.

I can agree with trimming Empath because I generally hate that card and am always looking for an excuse to ditch it. Can't agree with Master and Mimeo. There isn't a better 4-drop green than Master of the Wild Hunt -- if you have any suggestions I'll happily hear them and offer my reasoning. Mimeo doesn't need help to be good, actually. Against some decks he'll be average to subpar in the early game (Miracles comes to mind), but he recovers value in those matchups as the clock ticks on. He'll usually be fine in most matchups.

Kiora is probably not correct for this build. I do want to test a few games with her and make up my mind off of actual games rather than just theorycrafting and pontificating, though.

Mikokoro is 150% good enough in vintage, which is basically this exact deck except you get Dack and to be a lot more broken. I'm for sure going to test it before dismissing it.

tl;dr: -1 Empath, -2 Kiora, +3 Brainstorm; -1 Oracle, +1 ??? (2-3 drop creature)

[GtF]

I actually originally had 3 Brainstorms along with the 2 Tops, but ended up cutting them for space when I realized that I was cutting into my creature base too much.

I can agree with Oracle probably not being good enough. I tend to like to fire off my Zeniths asap so that they can shuffle back in and be re-used...but this may just be a deck where it's wiser to sandbag them for a few turns.

I can agree with trimming Empath because I generally hate that card and am always looking for an excuse to ditch it. Can't agree with Master and Mimeo. There isn't a better 4-drop green than Master of the Wild Hunt -- if you have any suggestions I'll happily hear them and offer my reasoning. Mimeo doesn't need help to be good, actually. Against some decks he'll be average to subpar in the early game (Miracles comes to mind), but he recovers value in those matchups as the clock ticks on. He'll usually be fine in most matchups.

Kiora is probably not correct for this build. I do want to test a few games with her and make up my mind off of actual games rather than just theorycrafting and pontificating, though.

Mikokoro is 150% good enough in vintage, which is basically this exact deck except you get Dack and to be a lot more broken. I'm for sure going to test it before dismissing it.

tl;dr: -1 Empath, -2 Kiora, +3 Brainstorm; -1 Oracle, +1 ??? (2-3 drop creature)

During the brief period when I tested the BUG planeswalker deck I really liked Garruk Relentless. That deck had to lean on Garruk a lot more to pump out creatures which this might not need as much. But the synergy with deed is still there, and it still is a nice way to kill an unflipped(or flipped in a pinch) delver or stoneforge and get value. You even have good creatures to tutor for. I think it would be quite good instead of Kiora.
Not including a scavenging ooze when you're playing any number of GSZ just seems bizarre to me. It would improve your game 1 against several decks with just 1 slot.

[Bobmans]

During the brief period when I tested the BUG planeswalker deck I really liked Garruk Relentless. That deck had to lean on Garruk a lot more to pump out creatures which this might not need as much. But the synergy with deed is still there, and it still is a nice way to kill an unflipped(or flipped in a pinch) delver or stoneforge and get value. You even have good creatures to tutor for. I think it would be quite good instead of Kiora.
Not including a scavenging ooze when you're playing any number of GSZ just seems bizarre to me. It would improve your game 1 against several decks with just 1 slot.

I agree on Scavenging Ooze. It has more than often been very good to me.

Garruk Relentless, or even Garruk, Primal Hunter are underplayed in my opinion. Would love to see BUG lists running:
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Or better yet a JUND list running:
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Garruk be like: "Mind if i join in?"

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/97/715/635032497416571896.jpg

[pfiremc13]

It's both a draw engine and effective hate for opposing blue decks, as well as randomly enabling blowouts vs some combo decks (High Tide comes immediately to mind....nice Time Spiral bro).


Opposite a griselbrand off of show & tell....

[jbone2016]

Well, if anyone is in St. Louis this weekend I will be running stoneforge fit with the living wish package.


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[Arianrhod]

Did a bunch of testing vs Miracles today with the following sultai list:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Trinket Mage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bribery
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

I went -1 Empath, -1 Coiling Oracle, -2 Kiora for +3 Brainstorm, +1 Trinket Mage.

Here's my thoughts on the matchup:

It took us roughly 4 hours to play a match. I wish I was kidding. Every game ended with both of us having <10 cards left in deck, and in fact game 3 I milled him out via Mikokoro. I wish I was kidding.

-) Notion Thief is a massive dickpunch, as one would expect. ConSphinx is also capable of winning games if it sticks around for more than a turn. That said, it does lose value once they know you have it, as they'll be less likely to tap out into it and will usually try to leave a StP or Pyroblast up.

-) I really need another GSZ target or two somewhere. I had a LOT of dead Zeniths that couldn't get anything.

-) Trinket Mage was my idea for a value creature that was a warm body and on curve. Moving forward, I think I'll try an Edric in this slot.

-) Master of the Wild Hunt did nothing other than eat Keranos bolts. He's still reasonable, but my testing partner had Keranos early-mid in both postboard games, so he didn't really get a chance to do anything.

-) Future Sight buries them, as does Recurring Nightmare. These are hands down the two most important cards in the matchup -- even beyond Notion Thief. That being said, they need to use basically all of their resources to keep us down. Any strong printings for this deck in the future will likely push it over the hump.

-) Mimeoplasm was fine. The bombs stress their removal, and then Mimeo can threaten to break it. He's much, much stronger when being Zenithed into play, though -- I'll note that. This trend of maindeck Pyroblasts is awkward as fuck.

-) Brainstorm was typically mediocre, as I've come to expect. It did do -some- things, but it was far from as good as it usually is in other decks. Undecided on this moving forward.

-) Abrupt Decay was really weird and awkward. It was good at killing Counterbalance, and bad at basically everything else (duh matchup etc). I'm wondering if I actually need the maindeck Decays, or if I should just up the Strixes to a 4-of and use the other Decay slot + some other slot to move the pair of Cliques maindeck.

-) Speaking of Clique, card is insane.

-) Mikokoro is very strong. It actually kept me even with him fairly well, and, as mentioned, actually milled him out g3. It's kind of tricky to figure out when to use it vs when not to, but the card's power level is definitely there. I Divinationed off of it a couple times with a Notion Thief out. Felt good.

-) Haunting Echoes was MORBIDLY TERRIFYING for my opponent. He had to work very hard to keep it from resolving, and the one game where it did, it took his Forces, Swords, Terminuses, Scalding Tarns, Ponders, and something else. It basically left him without removal, counterspells, and hurt his cantripping and filtering. Might actually be worth its slot as a bomb for the grindy matchups.

-) Glen Elendra was great, as one would expect.

With testing, you should be able to tell how the game is going. Not to say that reversals are impossible, but if you want to play this deck, you need to know when to concede g1 vs Miracles. If you can steal game 1, you can probably stall out g2 long enough to win the match, or even just actually win g2. The matchup is much better postboard, because you lose the Therapies, Explorers, and Shriekmaw for relevant cards. By contrast, Miracles only picks up like 2-4 cards. I still wouldn't say that the matchup is great, though, which saddens me. It's really hard to find reasons to not just build Miracles. The deck is just grossly strong, and it's almost impossible to fight it effectively =(

That being said, I'm going to tune a bit and then come back at it for a few more games before giving up for now. I will note that I am confidant in this as a direction for Nic Fit. If something untimely happens to Miracles (metashift or otherwise), or if something shows up down the line for us, this list could be huge. That it forced such games out of Miracles warms my heart. We were literally throwing actual everything at each other for hours, and we were both pretty exhausted by the end of it. All we need is a little push. Just a tiny one. Come on, WotC. Pls?

--------------

PS: good luck tomorrow, jbone!

[thotcrime]

Maindeck pyroblast/REB........?

...yes please :)

[Arianrhod]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxBo7MTIUAE1WcN.jpg

So this happened. Or is happening. Jesus H.

-----

Also, BUG update:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
2 Notion Thief
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Frost Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bribery
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Batterskull
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

[jbone2016]

Well...that's going in the deck.


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[Tom4ik]

This might be where I am at for my bug list but this is as rough as Arianrhods list

2 bayou
1 tropical island
1 underground sea
2 creeping tar pit
2 swamp
2 island
2 forest
1 phyrexian tower
1 stronghold
8 fetches

4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
2 eternal witness
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
3 liliana
3 jace
3 deed
4 abrubt decay
1 garruk
2 intuition
2 gsz

So far in testing I have loved strix. removal with stronghold which doesnt give up your draw for the turn. intuition was for 2 witness plus strong hold for grindy games and then intuition becomes tutor for 3 cards. played against u/w blade with it and it basically ended up whoever got the first jace won though with lily i also had a few wins on the back of a protected by witness and strix lily.

[Qweerios]

Siege Rhino is definitely interesting. It can be GSZ'd, it tramples over TNN and lives, it cannot be Decayed or Bolted, it has an O.K. ability to flicker or recur. In a Junk Fit deck, his power level is underwhelming for the limited creatures slots we can play as he doesn't fill a specific role. In a Junk Pod deck, Redcap and Resto are both better so Rhino becomes the 3rd 4drop to compete with Rector if you insist on playing that many. Unfortunately, I think Rhino doesn't bring anything new to the table.

[kaminamina]

Is there any reason at all to go straight GB anymore?

Also is Garruk, Apex Predator strong enough for Nic Fit?

[jbone2016]

Kami, I saw someone running a g/b list with a entomb package.


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[thotcrime]

If this thread is any indication, Scapewish and Punishing Fit have sort of taken the back seat. In their place is Junk and BUG. This is unclear to me for a few reasons:
-I kinda figured Scapeshift was the safest combo available to this deck. Is Archangel/Spike really easier to pull off?
-Obviously blue is strong in legacy, but the BUG route seems to want to play more of a control game than does Jund, resulting in grindier matches. Is that really what this deck needs to do? Isn't the point of our explosiveness to blitzkrieg the opponent?
- If blue is the most common color in legacy, why shouldn't we be fighting it with maindeck REB/Slaughter Games?

Maybe these points are invalid, I just tend to look at my Punishing Fit as the working-man's underdog blue-hating budgety powerhouse.

/pointless post

[litenkatt]

If this thread is any indication, Scapewish and Punishing Fit have sort of taken the back seat. In their place is Junk and BUG. This is unclear to me for a few reasons:
-I kinda figured Scapeshift was the safest combo available to this deck. Is Archangel/Spike really easier to pull off?
-Obviously blue is strong in legacy, but the BUG route seems to want to play more of a control game than does Jund, resulting in grindier matches. Is that really what this deck needs to do? Isn't the point of our explosiveness to blitzkrieg the opponent?
- If blue is the most common color in legacy, why shouldn't we be fighting it with maindeck REB/Slaughter Games?

Maybe these points are invalid, I just tend to look at my Punishing Fit as the working-man's underdog blue-hating budgety powerhouse.

/pointless post

Dont agree on Punishing Fit. Im still playing it and I find it very strong. However still searching for the perfect 75 cards...!

[Arianrhod]

If this thread is any indication, Scapewish and Punishing Fit have sort of taken the back seat. In their place is Junk and BUG. This is unclear to me for a few reasons:
-I kinda figured Scapeshift was the safest combo available to this deck. Is Archangel/Spike really easier to pull off?
-Obviously blue is strong in legacy, but the BUG route seems to want to play more of a control game than does Jund, resulting in grindier matches. Is that really what this deck needs to do? Isn't the point of our explosiveness to blitzkrieg the opponent?
- If blue is the most common color in legacy, why shouldn't we be fighting it with maindeck REB/Slaughter Games?

Maybe these points are invalid, I just tend to look at my Punishing Fit as the working-man's underdog blue-hating budgety powerhouse.

/pointless post

-) Scapeshift is the safest combo available to the deck. Thune/Feeder is definitely doable and does function, but it's not as safe as Scape, no question. The problem with Scape right now is that it's stuck in an awkward in-between: it's not fast / powerful enough in the midgame to effectively close games, but it also is too much of a midgame deck to be able to compete in the lategame.

-) Sultai and Punishing are attacking on two completely different angles. Punishing says hey, Ima kill every single thing that you play, and then eventually kill you with whatever I've got laying around. Sultai says hey, Ima wreck your card advantage and filtering while you frantically try to answer [threat]. They're both controlling what the opponent is doing, but they're going about it very differently.

-) I specifically want to highlight this, because it's a philosophical question that I've been struggling with lately:


Isn't the point of our explosiveness to blitzkrieg the opponent?

This is a deep question, because it gets at the core of Nic Fit as a deck. What is the purpose of ramping? What's the purpose of running Veteran Explorer as a card? What does he do that Deathrite Shaman, Cloudpost, and Metalworker don't do better?

I would rank them as such in terms of power / potential explosiveness / endgame desires (most to least):

Cloudpost
Metalworker
Veteran
Deathrite

Counting Deathrite at all is kind of strange, but it's mostly because I want to use it to make a point. Veteran is the "weakest" member of the ramp family. It doesn't go meganuclear like Cloudpost and it doesn't go plain old nuclear but really quickly ala Metalworker. His symmetry is actually currently mattering for the first time in Nic Fit's history, as well, as many of the top decks of the moment are sporting at least 2 basics, up to Miracles, which runs the same number of basics that we do (6-8 range, depending on list). At the same time, Nic Fit is much more likely to play a 'normal' game of Magic than the other two are. You're not casting Sundering Titan or Ulamog without help. Thragtusk is eminently doable in regular Magic with no ramping assistance required -- people already hardcast quite a few Force of Wills, after all.

Scapewish wants to use Veteran to accelerate into a lethal Scapeshift, while simultaneously using it to both ramp into more ramp creatures and some beefy midrange threats to keep the opponent occupied while digging for Shift.

Sultai wants to use Veteran to deploy hateful blue creatures sooner -- threatening a Notion Thief, ConSphinx, Glen Elendra, or even Clique ahead of schedule is pretty dangerous for most opponents.

Junk wants to use Veteran to accelerate into 'bombs' -- and then just keep slamming bombs until the opponent is out of ways to deal with them.

I won't mention the other variants as I have less experience with them -- but I would welcome you to add on to this list with your own variant and your thoughts on the subject. Nic Fit stands in a zone of liminality -- the archetype as a whole is suffering right now, and I think that we're not going to be able to well and truly solve that until we take a step back, disassemble the deck to its core, and rebuild it from the ground up.

We have the technology. We can rebuild him.

[Tom4ik]

I have been on the punishing version for about a year when I play Nic Fit. The whole veteran explorer part of the deck is smth that seems both its greatest strength and at times the worst aspect of the deck.

In my view the vet package is used in this deck as a way to facilitate 2 busted cards Deed and Therapy. When you have plenty of mana deed wrecks house. It is usually too slow in many cases without the ramp. Not to say its not a good card but its a great card when you are able to deploy turn 2 lily after double therapy because their hand is ripped and they are forced to play threats in lily and deed allows clean up.

The threats you play are all great on an empty board. Hunt, thrun and tusk all shine on empty boards as opposed to those cluttered with goyfs or other random creatures. They do fine work are great when the opponent cannot break out of lily-fire. Vet works by giving you the mana to play these cards and to play them quick enough to matter. The downside vet can be a terrible card in certain games.

The struggle I have had is we are spending cards ramping. That Vet could have been smth else. so why spend a card ramping unless we are really taking advantage of it. This is why I am starting to look into a bug version. Brainstorm allows the reset with cards that are not needed in a much better way than punishing fire. Jace is also a thing...

I still believe punishing fire is a great engine for this deck to use. The synergy with Lily and deed can easily create a situation where you will grind out any deck. The problem I see with that deck is that you are so heavily slanted to creature decks with Lily, Deed, Decay and Fire. Last weekend I lost to elves when I got them to empty board empty hand and proceed to draw 5 lands in a row. Variance is a bitch and so bug is my attempt to resolve some of that.

As to main deck reb or slaughter games. I would NEVER play slaughter games main. The games where you get a game 1 win against ant or miracles will be 1/100 of the times you see a 4 mana spell in your hand that impacts the board not at all. @Arianrhod has played it in scapshift and I think it was randomly amazing and mostly useless but he could give you more personal anecdotes. My advice would be no. Rebs would be ok but I would hesitate even if you went up to 4 Lily. decks that run it main usually also have 4 brainstorm and 3-4 jace to deal with having it in a poor match up. If you are on pfire you dont need reb. I would go up to 4 SDT in that deck. I may make some changes to pfire and play it tmr in a our $15 weekly though as I heard the sunday IQ at that store was filled with grindy decks and pfire still owns those decks...

[Arianrhod]

Slaughter Games is fine maindeck in certain metagames (we're not there atm). Nic Fit as a whole has the ability to run sideboard cards maindeck and kind of cheat on matchups if the metagame tilts a certain way. Slaughter main was innovated because at the time, Sneak and Show was SMASHING the metagame, to an extent to which many people (myself included) thought that either Griselbrand or Show and Tell was going to get banned. Sneak and Show happened to be hilariously well positioned against Nic Fit, and I got to the point where I was so tilted about constantly having my deep tournament runs ruined by Sneak that I said fuck it, maindeck Slaughter.

I beat a lot of very good Sneak and Show players after I did this -- to the point at which I considered Sneak and Show to actually be a positive matchup. Slaughter had the benefit of never really being fully dead -- if nothing else, you are kind of playing a combo deck, sort of, so you could just Slaughter out Esperblade's Force of Wills, for example, and remove their only line of interacting with Scapeshift from the equation.

Anyway, the metagame shifted when people remembered that Death and Taxes is a deck, and coupled with Sneak's core instability, that particular menace fell from the spotlight -- and along with it, the need to run maindeck Slaughter Games.

Now that we're in the Miracles meta, we have the potential to make the same call that was made with Sneak and Show. The problem is that I think Tsunami is the best maindeckable Miracles hate, and I don't think that it's as good in non-Miracles matchups as Slaughter Games was vs non-Sneak. For example, while Tsunami is still a huge kick in the teeth to Shardless BUG, they can still function. Delver decks tend to laugh at it =/

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Agryem - Plane (http://magiccards.info/extra/plane/planechase/agyrem.html)

Yes, I'm aware that this is nowhere near legal in competitive Legacy. But in a casual game playing a friend's deck, I managed to abuse the second ability with Sakura-Tribe Elder to basic-ramp each turn.

So far in my attempts to scour the Gatherer database, the most explosive yet legal variant is Verdant Succession, which is a whopping 5-mana for an enchantment. It however, can provide a lot of mana for little effort with 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder, and if ya really want to get cute, adding a Wheel of Sun and Moon on you means infinite Sakura-Tribe Elders in one turn, which has utility as both a ramp ability and a shuffle ability.

[thotcrime]

This is a deep question, because it gets at the core of Nic Fit as a deck. What is the purpose of ramping? What's the purpose of running Veteran Explorer as a card? What does he do that Deathrite Shaman, Cloudpost, and Metalworker don't do better?

Counting Deathrite at all is kind of strange, but it's mostly because I want to use it to make a point. Veteran is the "weakest" member of the ramp family. It doesn't go meganuclear like Cloudpost and it doesn't go plain old nuclear but really quickly ala Metalworker. His symmetry is actually currently mattering for the first time in Nic Fit's history, as well, as many of the top decks of the moment are sporting at least 2 basics, up to Miracles, which runs the same number of basics that we do (6-8 range, depending on list). At the same time, Nic Fit is much more likely to play a 'normal' game of Magic than the other two are. You're not casting Sundering Titan or Ulamog without help. Thragtusk is eminently doable in regular Magic with no ramping assistance required -- people already hardcast quite a few Force of Wills, after all.

Scapewish wants to use Veteran to accelerate into a lethal Scapeshift, while simultaneously using it to both ramp into more ramp creatures and some beefy midrange threats to keep the opponent occupied while digging for Shift.

Sultai wants to use Veteran to deploy hateful blue creatures sooner -- threatening a Notion Thief, ConSphinx, Glen Elendra, or even Clique ahead of schedule is pretty dangerous for most opponents.

Junk wants to use Veteran to accelerate into 'bombs' -- and then just keep slamming bombs until the opponent is out of ways to deal with them.

I won't mention the other variants as I have less experience with them -- but I would welcome you to add on to this list with your own variant and your thoughts on the subject. Nic Fit stands in a zone of liminality -- the archetype as a whole is suffering right now, and I think that we're not going to be able to well and truly solve that until we take a step back, disassemble the deck to its core, and rebuild it from the ground up.

We have the technology. We can rebuild him.

Firstly, my NicFit doesn't assume a gender role, it's trans.

Secondly, taking a step back for a little objectivity is a good thing and necessary for non-tier 1 decks.

I can't speak whatsoever for BUG or Scapewish. I have never piloted those decks, so I won't address them.

From a Punishing Jund perspective:

I hate blue magic. Jace, FoW, Counterbalance, Show and Tell, Brainstorm, etc etc can all end up in the trash bin. When I sit across from a player and see any variety of blue fetchland t1, I groan inside because I know that this won't be a game of magic, it will be an act of irritation in which everything I try to do is shut down by cheap, cheaty spells. Therapy? Brainstorm lol. Vet? Force, 'cuz fuck you!
I will be the first to admit that the Punishing variance absolutely sucks fuck against anything that doesn't play fair magic. The titular goddamned card might as well be a Grizzly Bear if your opponent isn't playing a creature deck.
That said, our SB allows us to turn into a combo-hating pile of fun. More 1CMC discard, red counterspells, elf-plagues, island-hating goodness, brainstorm-extractions. Game 2 against combo is when I remember that sometimes magic can be fun. The scales start to even out when we don't autolose on turn 2/3. However, we still can't fight combo if we don't draw the hate. I basically automull until I see REB.

The strength of PJund is also its weakness, its adaptability. Because we are part aggro/control/even a little combo, we don't serve any of those roles at 100% efficiency. That means we need to draw what when need when we need it or we lose the game.

Maybe 4 SDT is correct? Maybe you BUG types got it right with Brainstorm/JTMS. I hope not, because blue makes me ill.

We certainly are missing a piece of the puzzle. Maybe the card(s) we need haven't been printed yet. Is it possible that we aren't seeing a glaringly obvious solution?

Before I forget: you mentioned Tsunami, is From the Ashes comparable?

Something else on my mind is the apparent softness of our creatures. Prime Titan/Thrag/Hunts/Ooze are all very easy to kill with StP/Bolt and we are left sitting on an empty board waiting for a finisher. That is probably the biggest weakness of the deck, and something you briefly touched on. Our midrange game is generally dependent on 1 maybe 2 creatures turning sideways, easily-disrupted by removal.
Let's consider creatures that dodge removal/better ensure timely victory.

Sigarda - arguably the best Junk beater, period. She almost can't die, afaik the only creature able to block it is:
Tombstalker - I haven't seen this fuck played whatsoever in NicFit. Our GYs aren't as easily delved as say BUG Delver, but we still do our fair share of card-burning. He can't be Decayed and wins in 4 turns.
Thrun - obv a badass, but often a 5 turn clock.
Terra Stomper - why doesn't this bastard have haste? It lives through a hefty Deed-splosion and dodges Decay.
Gaea's Revenge - rips up an empty board, almost impossible to kill without mass-removal. Very easily blocked however.
Stormbreath Dragon - yeah I might be going out on a limb, but he swings through Baneslayer and can't be StPd or Decayed. If he ever goes monstrous, you're probably looking at a 3 turn clock.
Akroma, Angel of Fury - bit 'spensive, but lol good luck with that removal spell
Mistcutter Hydra - not very impressive, but can swiftly shut down a game against blue-based combo
Petrified Wood-kin - this card looks so fucking juicy, counter all instants wtf? kinda sucks a lot without bloodthirst.
Spellbreaker Behemoth - eh? eh?


IMO we need fast beaters to seal up games. Shroud/uncounterable/haste/etc etc. Man red Akroma looks promising...


edit: my red creatures are useless with GSZ in hand. Is 3 GSZ/4 SDT any more viable?

[Arianrhod]

From the Ashes isn't really comparable when we're talking about Miracles hate, because they play as many basics as we do, including something like 5 basic islands. That being said, From the Ashes would TRASH Shardless BUG, as well as maintaining utility vs Jund etc that runs a lot of duals but aren't necessarily blue.

I firmly believe that Nic Fit's current struggle relates directly to its finishers. At the core, most Nic Fits are some degree of control. Some are a bit more aggro than others, some a bit more combo...but there's an inherent control game that comes from playing with Therapy + easy flashback means + Deeds + spot removal, with Top for card quality and lots of x-for-1s for virtual card advantage (ie Huntmaster, Thrag, etc).

The problem with a control deck's finisher is that the card in question needs to be evasive, protected, and a quick clock to prevent answers. Sigarda is the perfect answer here. She's a 4 turn clock (assuming no lifegain), she flies, and she used to be damn near unkillable. Miracles plays 4 Terminus, 1-2 Verdict, and 2-3 Council's Judgment + on average 2-3 Snapcasters. This isn't taking into account the Clique + Karakas permablock. Shardless is now playing multiple copies of Baleful Strix maindeck, along with at least 2 Toxic Deluge, and they draw approx a million cards to find them all. Deathblade can just race you with TNN(s) + equips, but they also have CliqueRakas, Judgments, Verdicts, and Snapcasters.

Sigarda doesn't cut it against that.

I've been testing Stormbreath as a 2-of in Scape for a while now, and the card has been good. But, it too suffers from the above problem. At least it has haste, so it does 4 damage (maybe kills a Jace?) before going bye-bye.

This directly informed my recent graspings towards a BUG list. My rationale is that Glen Elendra makes it really hard to blow up our threats, Notion Thief makes them scared to dig for more removal, and ConSphinx can just outgas them solo if left unchecked for even 2 turns. It's less about having a couple of dedicated finishers, and more about attacking them from as many angles as possible in the hopes that they'll crumble. By running a handful of finishers only, we're playing directly into the metagame's hands. It just won't work for now.

[pfiremc13]

Thrun + karakas could be decent, though maybe not for nic fit.


I tend to like to fire off my Zeniths asap so that they can shuffle back in and be re-used

Do you think this is correct? I usually sandbag them. GSZ is so powerful lategame, and I'm worried I won't draw one when I need one.

[jbone2016]

Deck list from SCG St. Louis
Main Board (61)
Dudes (14)
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarada
1 Baneslayer Angel
non-dudes (25)
2 Thoughtseize
3 Tops
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Jitte
1 StP
2 Decay
1 Batterskull
Land (22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Board
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ashen Rider
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tsumani
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Humility
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood

[Ralf]

Firstly, my NicFit doesn't assume a gender role, it's trans.

Secondly, taking a step back for a little objectivity is a good thing and necessary for non-tier 1 decks.

I can't speak whatsoever for BUG or Scapewish. I have never piloted those decks, so I won't address them.

From a Punishing Jund perspective:

I hate blue magic. Jace, FoW, Counterbalance, Show and Tell, Brainstorm, etc etc can all end up in the trash bin. When I sit across from a player and see any variety of blue fetchland t1, I groan inside because I know that this won't be a game of magic, it will be an act of irritation in which everything I try to do is shut down by cheap, cheaty spells. Therapy? Brainstorm lol. Vet? Force, 'cuz fuck you!
I will be the first to admit that the Punishing variance absolutely sucks fuck against anything that doesn't play fair magic. The titular goddamned card might as well be a Grizzly Bear if your opponent isn't playing a creature deck.
That said, our SB allows us to turn into a combo-hating pile of fun. More 1CMC discard, red counterspells, elf-plagues, island-hating goodness, brainstorm-extractions. Game 2 against combo is when I remember that sometimes magic can be fun. The scales start to even out when we don't autolose on turn 2/3. However, we still can't fight combo if we don't draw the hate. I basically automull until I see REB.

The strength of PJund is also its weakness, its adaptability. Because we are part aggro/control/even a little combo, we don't serve any of those roles at 100% efficiency. That means we need to draw what when need when we need it or we lose the game.

Maybe 4 SDT is correct? Maybe you BUG types got it right with Brainstorm/JTMS. I hope not, because blue makes me ill.

We certainly are missing a piece of the puzzle. Maybe the card(s) we need haven't been printed yet. Is it possible that we aren't seeing a glaringly obvious solution?

Before I forget: you mentioned Tsunami, is From the Ashes comparable?

Something else on my mind is the apparent softness of our creatures. Prime Titan/Thrag/Hunts/Ooze are all very easy to kill with StP/Bolt and we are left sitting on an empty board waiting for a finisher. That is probably the biggest weakness of the deck, and something you briefly touched on. Our midrange game is generally dependent on 1 maybe 2 creatures turning sideways, easily-disrupted by removal.
Let's consider creatures that dodge removal/better ensure timely victory.

Sigarda - arguably the best Junk beater, period. She almost can't die, afaik the only creature able to block it is:
Tombstalker - I haven't seen this fuck played whatsoever in NicFit. Our GYs aren't as easily delved as say BUG Delver, but we still do our fair share of card-burning. He can't be Decayed and wins in 4 turns.
Thrun - obv a badass, but often a 5 turn clock.
Terra Stomper - why doesn't this bastard have haste? It lives through a hefty Deed-splosion and dodges Decay.
Gaea's Revenge - rips up an empty board, almost impossible to kill without mass-removal. Very easily blocked however.
Stormbreath Dragon - yeah I might be going out on a limb, but he swings through Baneslayer and can't be StPd or Decayed. If he ever goes monstrous, you're probably looking at a 3 turn clock.
Akroma, Angel of Fury - bit 'spensive, but lol good luck with that removal spell
Mistcutter Hydra - not very impressive, but can swiftly shut down a game against blue-based combo
Petrified Wood-kin - this card looks so fucking juicy, counter all instants wtf? kinda sucks a lot without bloodthirst.
Spellbreaker Behemoth - eh? eh?


IMO we need fast beaters to seal up games. Shroud/uncounterable/haste/etc etc. Man red Akroma looks promising...


edit: my red creatures are useless with GSZ in hand. Is 3 GSZ/4 SDT any more viable?

Finding the perfect balance between control element and beaters is a difficult part in Punishing Fit.
But I have to admit that finding the perfect timing to go aggro is without any doubt the most difficult part.

Hence, I am no so fond about looking for "St Graal" of beaters or fast beaters, value and perfect timing are already a thing.

Once you have stabilized, it is pretty easy to identify which one of your creature package will be the most effective given a particular frame of turns/opp's decks.
Basically, it comes down to a simple question:
- Do they have any cards left in their hands when I'm searching for my most effective beater (and so a potential removal) ?
- If not, everything is based on the topdeck draw luck.

To sum it up: Have it or lose it.

Usually, if I get to untap & attack with a beater, the match is likely mine or if none of my beater could stick the board, PF will eventually get the job done.

Finally, if you look at our threats when hands are depleted, I think our creature package is actually really scary:

1) Past T10 or when graves are full of dead creatures (PF, liliana, deed), Ooze is usually a T2 clock as a vanilla 10/10 is all what you need.
2) Mr Hunt requires REaction from aggro/combo/control archetypes. If left unchecked, oh well, job's done.
3) Thrag is for emergency only.
4) Garruk cannot be fetched. But he really shines in control mirror so that eventually you will draw him.
5) Primeval is the ultra late game bomb I no longer play but with 2 towers it means inevitability.

And I'm not counting hundred of games won just by shocking/lava spiking my opponent with the all mighty witness and our great veteran.

As a general overview, games tend to follow this simple path:

1) Develop your mana base = veteran / top
2) Take control of the game by depleting opp's ressources/creating more CA than them:
- board ressources ( mostly creature) = liliana, PF, Deed, witness recurring removal
- hand ressources = liliana / cabal + flashback / witness recurring discard
3) once the board is clear and opponent DEPLETED (or almost), land the most effective threat to quicken the clock = 1st Hunt, 2nd Thrag & 3rd Ooze (the later, the bigger)

Nothing special, just timing. I might be breaking open doors but playing one of your finisher into a STP IS a really bad move. At least, wait until the path is clear (discard/liliana or make your opponent throw STP to witness or veteran etc...)

PS @ anyone: Any ideas for a fifth cheap green beater (CMC 1 or 2 max) which is not a goyf nor a geist (to rape combo) ?

[thotcrime]

Cheap green beaters.. hmmmm Wolfbitten Captive is cute, gets nasty if left unchallenged. Mold Adder. Nissa's Chosen will always be tutorable if it doesn't eat a StP. Scute Mob. Strangleroot Geist.
....Nimble Mongoose...

Ah, that was fun.

[jbone2016]

Cheap green beaters.. hmmmm Wolfbitten Captive is cute, gets nasty if left unchallenged. Mold Adder. Nissa's Chosen will always be tutorable if it doesn't eat a StP. Scute Mob. Strangleroot Geist.
....Nimble Mongoose...

Ah, that was fun.

I was thinking great stable stag, Silhana Ledgewalker (with equipment), witchstalker?

[jbone2016]

Brief Report from St. Louis.

Round 1: Werewolf/Godo Stompy
Game 1: TS reveals a bunch of nonsense but batterskull beats go far. Out: vet x 1, mystic x1 in: deluge, humility
Game 2: I die fairly quickly to Skull beats. He killed his own chalice with a manic vandal after I flipped my top.
Game 3: I end up seeing an inferno titan but pulse ruins that batterskull cleans up.
1-0 (2-1) no mulls

Round 2: Miracles
Game 1: I mull to 6 and TS his top away. Sadly to some quick angels. In: Tsunami x2, surgical, deluge, humility out: vet, mystic, ooze, swords, ?
Game 2: He mulls to 5 but makes a lot game out of it. I tsunami him at least once and grind him out.
Game 3: Short of time, I tsunami him again to keep him off jace mana. But he gets there. I think I had a chance to get a Sigarda out but choose to wish for the revoker. Sadly, it didn't work out. Should have gotten the draw.
1-1 (3-3) 1 mull

Round 3: American Delver
Game 1: Very close one. I die to a jitte'd up Mystic. In: Pridgemage, Deluge, Surgical Out: Teeg, Ooze, GSZ
Game 2 : I pretty much just get run over.
1-2 (3-5)

Round 4: Elves
Game 1: 2 turn mystic for jitte, turn 3 deed (kill your 2 arbors), equip and swing with jitte. In: Revoker, Deluge, Humility Out: Top, Ooze, Decay
Game 2 :We both mull, him to 5. But I still get hoofed.
Game 3: I'm in a good spot...teeg, baneslayer, mystic in play. 2nd mystic joins in and gets BS (jitte got saged). He has a dead GSZ in hand with enough mana to get hoof. I have a humility in hand but Teeg in play. I have Karakas to bounce teeg but maybe not enough white mana to play humility. I might have had a therapy in the yard. 27 to 7 in my favor. He plays a dryad arbor and then casts hoof. 41 damage coming in. Sadly, I can only soak up twelve of it from toughness/life gain. Ugh.
1-3 (4-7) 2 mulls

Round 5: Tin Fins
Game 1: I get turn oned. Oof. In: Surgical, Traps x2, Ashen Rider, Revoker, Innocent Blood Out: Don't remember
Game 2: I turn off his petal with revokers but it doesn't matter that much after draws a bunch with Griselbees.
1-4 (4-9)

At this point, I can't win any money and I need to relax. I stay in because people in my car are still doing well.

Round 6: Dredge
Game 1: I bog him at one point and he almost comes back....but he dredges too much and decks himself. In: surgical...traps? Out; 2 ts
Game 2: Turn 1'd again. TS back in.
Game 3: no enablers from him allows me to get the ooze and rip apart his graveyard.
2-4 (6-10) 2 mulls

Round 7: Meathooks
Game 1: I'm under no real threat and proceed to run over him. In: Deluge, Pridemage Out: Teeg, Ooze
Game 2: He had some early pressure but they died to a deed. Baneslayer cleans up.
3-4 (8-10) 3 mulls

Round 8: BUG
Game 1: Long game one of attrition. I somehow keep a batterskull in play while dealing with his threats (I think stronghold did some work with fleshbag). In: Deluge, Tsunami x2, surgical out: teeg, gsz, ts, vet
Game 2: Tsunami wrecks him well. Easy win.
4-4 (10-10)

Round 9: D+T
Game 1: Deed blows up his world and I assemble voltron. In: Deluge, Revoker, Pridemage Out: Vet, Ooze, TS
Game 2: Some early beats from him but recurring pridemage or fleshbag does lots of work.

5-4 (12-10) 3 mulls

Overall thoughts:
Thoughtseize seems better in the board. The life loss wasn't bad but a dead card late sucks. Better for combo.
SFM is awesome as usual. Getting the vet/therapy combo and then playing SFM is silly.
Mana base still seems fine. The main deck karakas got no use, though. The towers were good. Almost wanting another fetchland instead of a dual.
Wish package was good. Wanted hexmage for Jace still.
Starting to think Deluge should be main. Maybe cutting the 2nd decay for it.
Tsunami was pretty awesome. The traps and surgical are still good against combo. The blood and rider will probably be something else next time (probably thoughtseizes)

Thoughts?

[Ralf]

Cheap green beaters.. hmmmm Wolfbitten Captive is cute, gets nasty if left unchallenged. Mold Adder. Nissa's Chosen will always be tutorable if it doesn't eat a StP. Scute Mob. Strangleroot Geist.
....Nimble Mongoose...

Ah, that was fun.

Thanks.
I'll test Mold Adder.
Nissa is no better than Geist
Scute Mob/Nimble (Great cards) & Wolfbitten are just too slow.

@Jbone: I am looking @CMC 2 !

[Ralf]

Deck list from SCG St. Louis
Main Board (61)
Dudes (14)
4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda
1 Baneslayer Angel
non-dudes (25)
2 Thoughtseize
3 Tops
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Jitte
1 StP
2 Decay
1 Batterskull
Land (22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Board
1 Karakas
1 Bog
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ashen Rider
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tsumani
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Humility
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood

These are the changes I would make (based on your reports):

Main Board (60)

Dudes (14)

4 Vets
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali pridemage -> coming from the board. Could also be a Reclamation sage, but I like Qasali.
1 Knight of the Reliquary ->one of the best creature in junk color. Can fetch Volrath/karakas. Not to mention the psychological impact of this card.
3 Stoneforge Mystic -> 3 SFM for 2 equipments feels like a better number
1 Scooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda

non-dudes (24)
2 Thoughtseize
3 Tops
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Therapy
3 GSZ
3 Living Wish
3 Deed
1 Jitte
1 StP
2 Decay
1 Batterskull

Land (22)
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flat
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian tower

BOARD & WISHBOARD

1 Bog
1 Orzhov Pontiff -> great tool against tribal. 5 mana could be an issue unless you go T2 for wish and play it on T3.
1 Mangara of Corondor -> against control, this card is bonker. Not to mention the nasty trick with karakas.
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Humility
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia -> another strong piece of combohate
1 Stain the mind/Cranial extraction -> Combo/Control
1 Sorin, lord of Innistrad / elspeth -> whatever but both help shearing control MU.

That would be a good start for testing.

[thotcrime]

Thanks.
I'll test Mold Adder.
Nissa is no better than Geist
Scute Mob/Nimble (Great cards) & Wolfbitten are just too slow.

@Jbone: I am looking @CMC 2 !

Rakshasa Deathdealer from Khans looks kinda cute as well.

[Bobmans]

I firmly believe that Nic Fit's current struggle relates directly to its finishers. At the core, most Nic Fits are some degree of control. Some are a bit more aggro than others, some a bit more combo...but there's an inherent control game that comes from playing with Therapy + easy flashback means + Deeds + spot removal, with Top for card quality and lots of x-for-1s for virtual card advantage (ie Huntmaster, Thrag, etc).

The problem with a control deck's finisher is that the card in question needs to be evasive, protected, and a quick clock to prevent answers. Sigarda is the perfect answer here. She's a 4 turn clock (assuming no lifegain), she flies, and she used to be damn near unkillable. Miracles plays 4 Terminus, 1-2 Verdict, and 2-3 Council's Judgment + on average 2-3 Snapcasters. This isn't taking into account the Clique + Karakas permablock. Shardless is now playing multiple copies of Baleful Strix maindeck, along with at least 2 Toxic Deluge, and they draw approx a million cards to find them all. Deathblade can just race you with TNN(s) + equips, but they also have CliqueRakas, Judgments, Verdicts, and Snapcasters.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/62/194/635459405821086371.png

Looks like Khans gives us the right creature with the wrong colors.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I know it's a bit heretical and you specifically said to exclude it but I do think tarmogoyf is overly ignored by Nic-Fit. I love having one available as a zenith target when playing stoneforge based lists. You just won't get a better cheap beater elsewhere. Sure it sucks if you have to deed it away later but the same applies to the rest of the beater suggestions outside of strangleroot or the new rakasha dude.

With junk lists a 2cmc selection of Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, Goyf, and Scooze gives you a lot of powerful options to zenith for early in the game.

[Arianrhod]

As we are closing in on page #400, I'm getting a little concerned that this thread is both too unwieldy and closing in on the maximum page limit on the forums. As such, I've given myself a swift kick in the ass to actually get the updated primer done and get everything ready to move to a new thread.

So far everything's going pretty fine -- I'm making this one much nicer than our current model. I'm also stealing some of Bryant's ideas from the TES primer. To that end: if you know of the location of any feature matches or video top8 footage for the archetype as a whole (not worried about which version), please either post it or PM it to me so I can put it in the appropriate section of the new primer.

I also want HoneyT or Ralf's updated Punishing Fire list. I went back a few pages to try to find one and got frustrated and gave up. There's a few areas (like matchup analysis) that will need done for other versions that I'm not familiar with, but I'll hold off on that until it's up and people can see the formatting style I used for it so they can copy the style and keep it cohesive.

Oh, and if anyone wants to volunteer to make us a header image for the primer, that would be sweet. My artistic skills begin and end with stick figures.

[Ralf]

I know it's a bit heretical and you specifically said to exclude it but I do think tarmogoyf is overly ignored by Nic-Fit. I love having one available as a zenith target when playing stoneforge based lists. You just won't get a better cheap beater elsewhere. Sure it sucks if you have to deed it away later but the same applies to the rest of the beater suggestions outside of strangleroot or the new rakasha dude.

With junk lists a 2cmc selection of Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, Goyf, and Scooze gives you a lot of powerful options to zenith for early in the game.

No. I don't exclude it.
I'm just trying to gather ideas and make a bunch of test with them.

A few pages back, I said I was testing Tarmo & Geist in the 2-CMC slot to compete for my cheapest beatstick/combo-kneebreaker.
Let's weight the pros and cons of both, and to be honest I have yet to decide between them, that is why I want to explore new horizons/ideas.

The best ever printed vanilla beatstick @ 2-CMC for legacy against a poor damn guy.
We all know how much Tarmo is strong & powerful as we have all died a lot from its repeated assaults.
But let's try to answer these simple questions:
1) Is Tarmo our best 1/2-CMC green threat against combo in terms of race ?
2) Does Tarmo bring enough on the table to be an auto include in Nic Fit (at least PF version) ?

For the demonstration purpose, let's consider the following:
- We will most likely only (90 %) fetch for those guys through a GSZ, so that double green is a non issue. Not to mention that if you spot that your are playing against combo you have no issue in fetching for duals only.
- Tarmo is a 4/5 by T3 (instant, sorcery, lands, artefact = brainstorm, ponder, fetch, petal/LED)
- Strangleroot geist is a 3/2 by T3 (flashbacked therapy on him)
- Opponents are at 16 life points by T4

1) THE RACE

Tarmo's cumulative output damage
T4 -> 4
T5 -> 8
T6 -> 12
T7 -> 16

Geist's cumulative output damage
T3 -> 3
T4 -> 6
T5 -> 9
T6 -> 12
T7 -> 15
T8 -> 18

Tarmo is a winner, here. Even more if Tarmo is a 5/6 (Planeswalker/enchantment/creature). But Geist could also be pretty decent.

2) Synergy with the deck (or how does both beatstick are playing against the rest of the field be it control or aggro):

- Therapy folder = winner Geist
- Removal proof (save STP) = winner Geist
- Removal proof against STP = Goyf (more HP gain)
- Blocker = winner Goyf
- Deed proof = winner Geist
- Recursive potential with EWitness on an empty board = winner Geist
- Recursive potential with EWitness on a clogged board = winner Goyf
- Casting cost = winner Goyf

As long as synergy with the deck matters, Geist is IMHO a winner.

Conclusion ?

Finally, do I have proved anything. No.
When it comes to a pure race, Goyf is a clear winner.
But in terms of disruption & race ? How can we properly evaluate the efficiency of being able to therapy twice a combo player (could be extended to control/aggro player) and still putting him on a decent clock ?
How much does the blocking potential of a goyf outclass Geist's one ?
How efficient is to be able to deed a board and still get a 3/2 attacking creature ?
How much does it matter in legacy that a lone goyf is oneshot by Abrupt Decay or by an opposite Liliana ?
How much Tarmo is impacted during G2 & G3, especially when my dryad militant and opposite AD/removal come in the battle?

I have no clue nor perfect answers to all of them. But I wanted to write down the equation I am struggling with.
The only one I could see is : practise, practise and practise more.

Always glad to discuss strong options and get some insights from all of you.

Cheers.

[HoneyT]

Here you go Kevin (and everyone else):

// Deck: P-Fire Nic Fit (60)

// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

List for current unknown/SCG metagame.

[pfiremc13]

Thrun + karakas could be decent, though maybe not for nic fit.


In the same vein, we could consider bringing back the two towers engine. It's slow but it renders it practically impossible to get rid of your threats. You can play around drs by activating tower then leaving stronghold + mana open.

[Ralf]

Here you go Kevin (and everyone else):


P.370 -> Click (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=830935&viewfull=1#post830935)

[litenkatt]

P.370 -> Click (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=830935&viewfull=1#post830935)

Ralf, why did you cut 1 top? I've recently started playing with 4 tops, and I can't ever imagine going down to 3. I always want to have top, it feels like such an important card to a deck that has no other way to filter cards

On another note:

Anyone tried Stormbreath Dragon in Punishing Fit? Seems like it could do some work. Prot white and haste seems very strong

[Ralf]

Ralf, why did you cut 1 top? I've recently started playing with 4 tops, and I can't ever imagine going down to 3. I always want to have top, it feels like such an important card to a deck that has no other way to filter cards

On another note:

Anyone tried Stormbreath Dragon in Punishing Fit? Seems like it could do some work. Prot white and haste seems very strong

So I put back the 4th top a few months ago while most PF lists were still on 3 MD to hedge against BUG decks.
It was good.
You are certainly right, cutting it again, a few weeks ago, back to 3, is certainly not the best move but at least I can explain why:

Punchline: "You should not keep a bad starting hand even if you have a top in it"

Same old story with brainstorm, I guess ?

We want to see a top in every match. But I am no longer dying for a top in my starting hand as I am always keen to snap keep it and it has firebacked at me quite a few times (because I'm bad).
Not to mention that my meta switched back to more combo orientated (T2/T3 kill) again and TOP is sooooooo slow sometimes...
Furthermore, space is rather tight (as it has always been the case).

Anyway, playing 4 tops in my list and going up to 61 cards MD is rather a non issue and might be a good call because I tend to flood regularly with my 22 land configuration (since I lowered the whole curve) and each time I try 21 lands, I'm disappointed -> 21,5 could be the perfect number I'm looking for.

BUT, this will require "cutting" something else when I'll be pleased with the tests I am currently running to include another cheap beater (Be it Goyf/Geist or whatever).

As for Stormbreath Dragon, I'd say there are two major drawbacks:
- non green is a big issue because as a 1-of, you won't be able to see him regularly when you would want him.
- it is not a "full value" kind of guy nor a "full utility guy": it does not provide card advantage or virtual card advantage and his monstruous ability is meh meh meh...

Unfortunately, I would stick with Broodmate Dragon if I were to play huge flying beasts because at least it is GSZable and you have 2 bodies instead of 1.

[Megadeus]

For the punishing fit players, why not Broodmate Dragon? Not easily answered since it makes two men, flies, puts 8 power on board, and can be Green Sun'd.

Edit: Didnt read the post above mine. Derp

[Arianrhod]

New thread & primer is up, just in case any of you have this thread directly bookmarked and wouldn't have seen it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit

[Bobmans]

New thread & primer is up, just in case any of you have this thread directly bookmarked and wouldn't have seen it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit

Good job so far on the new primer.

But Azban and Sultai.... Seriously? WotC did some Bingo with letters. Banza was suggested as a joke, but it's kind of catchy for the JUNK colors. Anyway i think we should pimp those names, cus those just sound lame.

Edit: one day that JUND pod is gonna be cracked. Soo close....