[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'll admit I was being a little of an ass and Tao and Arianrhod's advice on the combo matches was much more instructive than what I said, but there's value to trying to fit in more main deck discard (I think that IoK and Duress work best for us; I do like Hymn but I think this deck doesn't capitalize much on the tempo gain aspect and it would rather hit the right card than two cards. Plus they supplement Therapy by giving you info.) Anyway, sorry if I was abrasive.

I agree that Batterskull seems pretty good these days. Wondering if people are feeling the same way about Garruk Primal Hunter, I've been enjoying him lately. Getting to his ultimate is pretty achievable, his tokens generally provide a pretty good wall, and like most decks I find this one likes permanents that draw more cards.

[Stoyrm]

I'll admit I was being a little of an ass and Tao and Arianrhod's advice on the combo matches was much more instructive than what I said, but there's value to trying to fit in more main deck discard (I think that IoK and Duress work best for us; I do like Hymn but I think this deck doesn't capitalize much on the tempo gain aspect and it would rather hit the right card than two cards. Plus they supplement Therapy by giving you info.) Anyway, sorry if I was abrasive.

I agree that Batterskull seems pretty good these days. Wondering if people are feeling the same way about Garruk Primal Hunter, I've been enjoying him lately. Getting to his ultimate is pretty achievable, his tokens generally provide a pretty good wall, and like most decks I find this one likes permanents that draw more cards.

@Discard: So far i've been loving Thoughtseize. The two lifes are often irrelevant, and the fact that you can take batterskull, jace, ad naueseum etc are actually quite relevant :). I also don't like hymn much in this deck (i'm playing three colors though), but having thoughtseize + cabal therapy can just crush storm decks. Add inn a liliana and you're set. It's still not easy though, TES has a tendency to crush you quite quickly by playing time walks before going of.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think Thoughtseize may be right depending on your meta. But there are plenty of matchups (Burn, Storm, most aggro decks) where the loss of two life may be relevant. I see hitting Jace and Batterskull as two pretty solid arguments for it though, but I still think the safety of something like Duress or Inquisition may be better for a control/attrition plan in a general meta with a lot of Delver/Burn/aggressive early drops running around.

[Tao]

Garruk PH and Batterskull compete for the same slot (both 5 Mana, both can't be tutored with GSZ) and with so many Lightning Bolts in the format I prefer Batterskull. Very good against Dredge, too, and two hits with it give the ANT player some problems if you make it till then.
Garruk is better vs. Jace though and I play P. Fire to control Jace so maybe there are arguments for Garruk, too.

Discard:
For the same reason (many burn spells) I think that the correct 1-Mana Discard (addional to Therapy) is maindeck Inquisition and SB Duress. If you play 2 color and thus have access to Hymn I lack experience on which is better because I played with P. Fire for quite some time now.
Thoughtseize is a worse MD card than Inquisition atm because there are many matchups in which 2 life hurt a lot and not so many in which you want to snipe 4+CC spells. Also Therapy gets those expensive spells quite often once you know their hand. Duress does not get V. Clique or Emrakul but it is very good against Burn as a 1 Mana gain 3-5 life spell (if they have Sulfuric Vortex even far more) so I prefer Duress as the SB option over Thoughtseize.

[Stoyrm]

Discard:
For the same reason (many burn spells) I think that the correct 1-Mana Discard (addional to Therapy) is maindeck Inquisition and SB Duress. If you play 2 color and thus have access to Hymn I lack experience on which is better because I played with P. Fire for quite some time now.
Thoughtseize is a worse MD card than Inquisition atm because there are many matchups in which 2 life hurt a lot and not so many in which you want to snipe 4+CC spells. Also Therapy gets those expensive spells quite often once you know their hand. Duress does not get V. Clique or Emrakul but it is very good against Burn as a 1 Mana gain 3-5 life spell (if they have Sulfuric Vortex even far more) so I prefer Duress as the SB option over Thoughtseize.

Aight. I don't actually have Inquisitions lying around, which is why i haven't tested it ;D. However i can totally see the reason for having inquisition main deck. I'm quite sure i like 2x Thoughtseize in the board though. Will have to test :).

[groupcelebration]

Garruk PH and Batterskull compete for the same slot (both 5 Mana, both can't be tutored with GSZ) and with so many Lightning Bolts in the format I prefer Batterskull. Very good against Dredge, too, and two hits with it give the ANT player some problems if you make it till then.
Garruk is better vs. Jace though and I play P. Fire to control Jace so maybe there are arguments for Garruk, too.

Discard:
For the same reason (many burn spells) I think that the correct 1-Mana Discard (addional to Therapy) is maindeck Inquisition and SB Duress. If you play 2 color and thus have access to Hymn I lack experience on which is better because I played with P. Fire for quite some time now.
Thoughtseize is a worse MD card than Inquisition atm because there are many matchups in which 2 life hurt a lot and not so many in which you want to snipe 4+CC spells. Also Therapy gets those expensive spells quite often once you know their hand. Duress does not get V. Clique or Emrakul but it is very good against Burn as a 1 Mana gain 3-5 life spell (if they have Sulfuric Vortex even far more) so I prefer Duress as the SB option over Thoughtseize.

I'm not sure Primal Hunter and Batterskull compete for the same slot. They both provide the deck reach, but under different situations.

I played Primal Hunter last week and drew 7 cards off him thanks to a large Ooze. In another game I drew 5 thanks to a Dungrove Elder. The draw cards ability will win you games that Batterskull can't. Although Batterskull's life gain will do the same.

I can see both cards belonging somewhere in the 75.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, here's my list for yesterday:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Mystic Enforcer
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan

3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Faith's Fetters
2x Phyrexian Arena

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

1x Skeletal Scrying

2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp

//SB
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Stony Silence
1x Curse of Exhaustion
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide


Changes from last time are as follows:
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Forest
+2 Baneslayer
+1 Plains
SB:
-1 Kitchen Finks
-1 Choke
-1 Xantid Swarm
+2 Tsunami
+1 Stony Silence

For now, the report -- some thoughts at the end.

After going to Jupiter's old store to pick up some items for people back home, we rushed to the venue and barely had enough time to resleeve and get our deck lists down -- will definitely have to leave earlier next time we need to make that run.

Round 1: Derek with UW Stoneblade

I win the roll, keep a strong 7, and lead with a blind Cabal Therapy, calling Brainstorm. I miss, and see Snare x2, Swords x2, Snapcaster, and a pair of lands. Next turn I drop Tower, Explorer, sac Explorer, drop Rector, sac Rector to Therapy, taking his swords and putting an Arena into play. I proceed to vastly outdraw and outthreat him, and we move to game two.

In: Tsunamis, Cranial/Mem, Cold-Eye. Out: Moat, Deed, Qasali, Titan, Ooze.

Note: I didn't see Stoneforge mystic game 1. I figured it was there, but I wasn't concerned enough about it to leave the Qasali in. Likewise, I wanted to blank his Snares. Probably still a bad board decision on my part in retrospect.

Game two saw another early Arena (this one cast, not Rectored), and I once again outdrew him like crazy. I make a scary board, and he Snaps back a Wrath to blow everything up, but I'm not concerned, as he's sitting at 4 life with no cards and I have Kokusho and Recurring Nightmare in hand.

Round 2: Aaron with Metalworker

This isn't a particularly good matchup for me in general, and it quickly turns out to be worse than expected when Aaron actually fetches a pair of basic islands with my Explorer trigger. I die to a hasty Blightsteel on like turn 3.

In: Stony Silence, Mem/Cranial
Out: Skeletal, Ooze, Mystic

Note: I expected graveyard hate, which is why I dropped the Mystic. Anything that runs Lightning Greaves and multiple dudes with 5 power or more means that I do not want Skeletal Scrying at all.

Game two I land a turn two Stony Silence, which locks out his turn 1 Metalworker. He proceeds to drop a pair of Wurmcoils over the next few turns, while I make some mana and a Qasali Pridemage. I almost manage to stabilize with Garruk producing wolves to feed to Nightmare to keep Qasali'ing him turn after turn, but when he turns his whole army at Garruk and proceed to fail to find a Deed, Moat, Rector, etc, I'm not long for the world. I'm not sure that Metalworker with basics is even a winnable matchup, honestly.

Round 3: Ryan with Fish.

Note: this guy eventually goes on to top 8. Not sure where he finished therein, though.

G1 we both mull to 6. My hand's a little eh, but he doesn't seem to happy either, so we both go with it. We both do nothing for a few turns. He drops a Reej off Island, Waste, Waste. My mana situation in hand is a little awkward, so I foolishly cracked my fetches for duals, assuming that I would be able to recover from his Wastes after resolving something backbreaking -- I forget what I tried to resolve, but it got Dazed. Then he dropped another Reej, and I dropped something that got Forced, and he dropped a third wasteland and all my lands went boom. Bad decision, but I don't know what I really would have been able to do against a hand like that anyway. I had Moat and Deed in hand, and I couldn't work on Moat and Deed both without duals.

G2 I mull to five to try to find even one land in an opening hand, find a basic with a pair of Rectors and am sufficiently tilted to say fuck it. I don't draw any more land the rest of the match, and walk away pretty pissed off. I was also sufficiently tilted here that I didn't bother to write down my board. I know I brought in the Tsunamis and the Selkie. That might have been it; I'm not sure. I remember almost not boarding the Tsunamis in, but figured that since my plan was basically to resolve Moat, at that point his only out is Coralhelm, and hurting his mana would help me find more time to solve his out.

Round 4: Dan with U/R Painter.

I don't have much to say about this. I died like turn three to land->welder, petal, go; sol land->painter, go; arbitrary land, grindstone, kill you. I remember not having anything of note in my opener, and think that I mulled to 5 or 6 in game one. Game two I proceeded to have mana issues of the opposite problem, but I still had a chance. He had double Painter+Welder beatdown going, and was topping to try to find his win. I had a Cranial in hand and plenty of mana available, but I figured he had counters, so I tried to bait his hand. I did land a Therapy, but called Force instead of REB/Pyro (he had one of each in hand). This was a misplay, because I had Leyline of Sanctity out, which meant that he needed to have one of those to kill my Leyline. At the point at which I took one of them away, I could have Cranialed him, which would have drawn the other REB effect, and bought me more time. Oh well.

Round 5: Dave with Bant Blade.

I ALMOST dropped after round 4, but figured that there were only two rounds left, and it wouldn't hurt to to harvest more information for the thread. I still wanted to play against Maverick and Stoneblade, to confirm those matchups, as well as get more testing in with Baneslayer. And besides, my pride demanded that I at least finish even on the day.

G1 was something of a slugfest -- I therapy'd him, and he cliqued me, so we both had almost perfect information for much of the game. I landed a fast Baneslayer, but was forced to keep her at home due to my line of attempting to get Garruk online. At the point at which Garruk is a go, I pretty much win, so I wanted to protect him from Clique. He counters the first Garruk, and proceeds to drop and equip Batterskull to his Clique. With a Hierarch out, I can't safely block his Clique, so I eat a lot of damage. Then I drop my second Garruk, and am forced to shoot his Hierarch rather than get it online. I also drop an Explorer to chump on the ground, and pass the turn. As his Clique is now no match for my Baneslayer, he requips the Batterskull to his Knight of the Reliquary, and swings in with that. I chump, and proceed to active Garruk next turn by shooting a Rector, which finds a Deed. I swing with Baneslayer and then crack for 5, since he doesn't have the mana open to bounce Batterskull. With a completely empty board except for my flipped Garruk, the Kokusho and Eternal Witness->Baneslayer in hand quickly win me the game.

In: Selkie, Tsunamis. Out: Ooze, Titan, Mystic.

I think that boarding out Ooze here may have been a mistake, but I didn't see any graveyard interaction beyond Knight of the Reliquary, which I'm not particularly worried about.

I stick an early Arena in game two, and proceed to outdraw him. He experiences some mana problems, which I exacerbate by Vindicating his only colored land (he also had Waste and Bog). He fails to find land for a few turns and then scoops as I build board state.

As of this point, I still have yet to see a Tsunami on the day, despite boarding them in FOUR TIMES. Hopefully my last round will be another blue deck so give me another chance ...

Round 6: Jeff with Burn.

FML. I keep a strong 7 which happens to be awful against burn, and die very, very quickly to what looks like a Fire/Lightning precon with a few minor additions (ie extra hellsparks).

In: Leyline of Sanctity, Surgicals. Out: Moat, Mystic, Arenas, Scrying.

Game two I open one of my Leylines and snapkeep. I proceed to go batshit crazy while my opponent visibly tilts. The only frightening intersection of the game occurs when he drops a Figure and is poised to level to ultimate the next turn. Luckily, I have a Rector in hand, which proceeds to find Fetters, shutting down his only real threat and gaining me even more life. He eventually dies to planeswalkers that he can't burn, and a Kokusho.

Game three I open double Leyline (!!!). I snap keep, as I realize that I only have one land -- a Bayou. However, I do have a Veteran, and since he can't burn me out, he'll have to attack. That comes to pass, and I get my lands. I proceed to set up wonderfully, and by the time he attempts to drop a Sulfuric Vortex, I have a Pulse in hand and ready. He dies quickly to Elspeth jumping tokens all day.

Final result: 3-3, good for 28th place.

I only saw Baneslayer twice, even with two of them in the deck. That said, she was liquid sex both times, winning me the games effortlessly. Arena continues to be frelling retarded. I don't think I've lost a game with a resolved Arena yet, since I put them in a month or two ago. Tsunami seemed hot in testing, so it's probably going to be staying in the sideboard, although it didn't see any actual use. I do feel like I want a 22nd land -- that might smooth the deck out a bit. I'm not sure if it should be another dual, or a utility land, or what. 8 basics feels like the right number, so I don't think I want to up that any further. I'm also not sure what I'll cut for the 22nd land. Everything else felt pretty good, except for the sheer variance in rounds 3 and 4, and my matchups being shit. Well over 2/3 of the room was either Stoneblade or Maverick, and I somehow managed to find the random matchups instead of the good ones. Still, I am not at all displeased with the deck's progress. It does what it's supposed to, it just needs a littttttle bit more tuning and I think I'll be happy.

I'm fully planning on playing this at GP:Indy, so if anyone has any thoughts, they're more than welcome.

[guelahpapyrus]

In a rector build, why are you using Tsunami over Choke?

[Arianrhod]

I had Choke, and then I switched it out. The problem with Choke is that while you can Rector for it, other things are also good to Rector vs blue decks (Curse of Exhaustion comes to mind). At the same time, Sword of F/F also exists to untap artificially, and it's something of a non-bo with Veteran Explorer. Tsunami seems much better in the same capacity.

[reev_]

You just cut out StP?

[ZaganOstia]

First time poster here, I was just curious how this deck's match up is against the goblin welder MUD builds that have been running around as of late. I may be playing at GP indy with a GBr version of the deck and I've not had any time to test against it yet.

What do you most want to call with a Therapy? I'm kinda assuming Forgemaster, but I really have no idea.

Thanks!
Zagan

[Arianrhod]

A few months back when Delver was all the rage I had Swords to Plowshares in my list, but I've found that Delver is usually the only thing I really care about Swords'ing. Rector->Deed/Moat, Pulse/Vindicate, Garrukx3, and a bunch of things that are just plain bigger than your average legacy dork are all sufficient answers to creature-based threats. The only real thing that Swords hits that I can't currently deal with well is manlands, but that's a minor enough concern that it doesn't even register. If Delver decks made a sudden reappearance, I'll probably end up putting Swords back in (as well as Master of the Wild Hunt). For now, though, I'm perfectly content without them.

As far as Therapy vs Metalworker, if you're on the play, hit their acceleration. Grim Monolith is my favorite call, followed closely by Metalworker itself. If you're on the draw, probably Forgemaster or Wurmcoil is your best bet, since they'll have spewed their accel already. Although, if you're on the draw and they went like Seat of the Synod->Voltaic Key->go, then by all means still name Monolith. Hitting their Monoliths is the single best way to cripple that deck.

[hyperchord24]

I was just about to give up on white, then I read your list. I have to got to get my hands on more rectors. I only have one, and I haven't really done much with her. How was Elspeth for you? Too slow? Did you ever miss Grave Titan? And lastly, did you you ever want sylvan library (as opposed to arena)?

[Arianrhod]

Elspeth is a solid answer and threat to a lot of situations, and while she's amazing in general, she's in the list for the specific reason of having a non-creature repeatable source of giving wincon flying, for the times when you're sitting behind Moat and they've dealt with most of your flyers, and you can't kill you Moat due to their board presence. It's not a common occurrance, but as I said, she's a solid card on her own, so it doesn't hurt to use a slot for "insurance," so to speak.

I have never missed Grave Titan. I tried him a few times, and he just didn't do it for me. My list isn't as much raw power as tech -- I want my dudes to actually -do- things, as opposed to turn right and smashy smashy. Kokusho is solid in general, and with Nightmare obvious becomes nuts. Titan fuels many, many engines, and is capable of ripping games wipe open. With them as your 6's, you don't have a need for Grave Titan.

Sylvan dies to your Deeds more often than not. Sometimes Arena does too, but it's a bit less likely. All I'll really say about this is that once you get an Arena online, you'll understand and you'll never go back to whatever library manipulation/draw you were using before. It's that good.

[TheArchitect]

Sylvan dies to your Deeds more often than not. Sometimes Arena does too, but it's a bit less likely. All I'll really say about this is that once you get an Arena online, you'll understand and you'll never go back to whatever library manipulation/draw you were using before. It's that good.
I can second that, if you land an arena you can't really lose unless your already in an awful position. With the exception of Veteran explore and single target discard, this deck gets extremely high value/card advantage out of each of its cards, more so than just about any legacy deck, UW control comes pretty close though; drawing two random cards is almost always going to be more useful than drawing one of your top 3 cards.

That said, top does have advantages as well. I ditched it a while ago, but recently have been thinking about giving it another try so I can make sure I made the right choice. I'm I'd miss phyrexian arena though.

[arcannys]

Alrigh guys, im trying to build a red version to try huntmasters, but all the lists i've seen have a major weakness: It has nothing to do at instant speed for when you try to flip huntmaster.
So let the brainstorming begin!!
I need cool instant speed cards in JUND colors to do on your opponents turn when trying to flip the huntmaster and not loose the turn completly if the plan goes wrong.
the first that come to mind are:
-terminate
-pFire (but i dislike them in this decks, since we only run basics so grove won't last a single turn on the table)
-fire covenant ?(:P)
-beast within :o?
It sucks that all the jund color zeniths are sorcery :|
Suggestions ?!?

[eq.firemind]

I need cool instant speed cards in JUND colors to do on your opponents turn when trying to flip the huntmaster and not loose the turn completly if the plan goes wrong.
Lightning Bolt - pretty obvious
Jund Charm - not so obvious.

[arcannys]

Lightning Bolt - pretty obvious
Jund Charm - not so obvious.
Ye i thought bolt was too abvious.
My first list had 4 bolts, 2 terminateas removal, but im looking for something to do the turn after i cast huntmaster (6 mana available potentially), that is a thread rather than a removal spell.

[Tao]

Very easy. Punishing Fire is the main reason to run Red in the first place and it gives you something to with Huntmaster. You shouldn't be too worried about Wasteland on Grove. Wasteland is rarely dead anyway so that is no big problem. If they Waste it after you returned Fire you already gained an advantage.

[sap]

i was thinking in trying BGr just for fun (and because im sick of blue matchups), ive been running BGw since ive started playing nic fit but i cant see how the red splash deals with combo and burn.

with white we have: circle of protection: red, leyline of sanctity, ethersworn canonist and gaddock teeg.

what is there in red that can replace this? for burn i guess since we have burn ourselfs we just kill their creatures (we cant even exile the flashback creatures with swords to plowshares...), but what about combo?

thanks.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Zuran Orb, Nether Void, False Cure, Obstinate Baloth, Finks, Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Rain of Gore, Memoricide/Cranial Extraction....

Don't know if there is a whole lot more useful stuff ;)

Probably just more discard. 4 Therapy + 2 Inquisition + 3 Duress should be sufficient to set up a lock piece ;)

[hyperchord24]

Okay, I played a similar list to Arianrhod's on the previous page. One thing I noticed immediately was the dislike of Skeletal Scrying. I never wanted to exile my cards b/c there were Therapies, creatures for Recurring Nightmare or cads to be brought back with sun titan in my gy. I was thinking it may be better as Promise of Power. It can either be a threat when you need it or cards to get you there. By the time you're ready to cast scrying, you'll be paying 5 mana anyway, and not doing all that much. Though, it may be better as another Vindicate or an Espleth (my version didn't run her).

I also found Moat unneeded as deed locks aggro up anyway and our large threats don't fly, but I may have taken it for granted. I don't know of any other gamebreaking enchantment that we don't already run.

I never wanted Grave Titan and though I ran Deranged Hermit, I never wanted him either.

Lastly has anyone been worried about running non-shrouded creatures? My list ran aGaea's Revenge and was relevant in one match where my opponent had a Go for the Throat in his hand and I had it in play. Gigapede may suffice though.

[arcannys]

Zuran Orb, Nether Void, False Cure, Obstinate Baloth, Finks, Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Rain of Gore, Memoricide/Cranial Extraction....

Don't know if there is a whole lot more useful stuff ;)

Probably just more discard. 4 Therapy + 2 Inquisition + 3 Duress should be sufficient to set up a lock piece ;)
You forgot pyrostatic pillar and red blasts :)

[conboy31]

I was thinking it may be better as Promise of Power. It can either be a threat when you need it or cards to get you there. By the time you're ready to cast scrying, you'll be paying 5 mana anyway, and not doing all that much.

You can give it a shot, but the reason scrying is/was playable is that as an instant you can have options to navigate when and how you cast it vs. blue Jace decks. With scrying you don't have to tap five mana during your main phase while you gaze into your opponents eyes.

[Arianrhod]

Pretty much exactly what Conboy said. The other advantage to Scrying is that you can use it to draw fewer cards earlier in the game. I've used it as an instant speed mulldrifter much more often than holding it to draw 7 late game, usually EoT when I'm fishing for a land drop or digging for a Deed. In that capacity it's been amazing, although I'll admit that sometimes it's a little lacking. Still, there's usually a few fetches or explorers floating around to feed to it. I originally tried Promise of Power wayyyyy back in like August, I think, and was disappointed by it then. Triple black is freaking rough. By all means, give it a go though and see how it works for you.

As far as Moat is concerned, my list is a very, very synergistic one. If you only played some parts of it, then you wouldn't get the full appreciation for some of the cards -- in the case of Moat, if yo u weren't running Kokusho or the Baneslayers, then you're missing some of the point of it. It's still kind of good, but IMO without big flying finishers, you should just have Moat in the board. The awesome thing about Moat + flyers is that you can get a lot of value in situations where you wouldn't assume that you would. The one and only game I've won against Sneak/Show was on the back of a Moat stopping his Progenituses while Kokusho flew over head. He landed an Emrakul off of Sneak and put me to like 3 life and two permanents: Moat and Kokusho. And they got there by themselves. I'll grant it's a corner case, but that's where Moat shines. It's obviously good against like Stoneblade and Maverick where they only run two or three flyers in their whole deck, but it's even better against the random decks that you wouldn't expect it to be good vs, especially when you build around it with more flying capabilities.

I will say this, though: if you're running Gaea's Revenge, don't run Moat. That tells me that you're doing something different with your list -- trying to fuse my list and yours will probably have disastrous consequences.

Tell you what -- post up your list and I'll have a look at it. I think that since Tao jumped ship to red, I've probably got the most experience with the white version at this point. Let me know what you're having trouble with, and what you especially like about your list, and we'll see what we can do.

[Hoojo]

I've been running a split of 3 Living Wish and 3 Green Sun's Zenith and I really like it. This deck is pretty fluid as far as configurations; I've been pushing the Veteran Explorer count down as I really only want to use him once, maybe twice. As far as a splash color, I'm torn:

GBr
Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Eternal Witness
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Tarmogoyf

Other Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Living Wish
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Acidic Slime
1 Anathemancer
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Inferno Titan
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland


I really like this version. It has a lot of resilience and longevity. I've tried to make the maindeck redundant and the wishlist fairly flexible. I've made a straight GB configuration and a GBw version, both utilizing a very similar shell; out of the three, I think this one has the most potential, but GB is very solid too.

[Richard Cheese]

I think I'd go with Top over Guile for sure. You're basically always going to have the mana to use it, it can draw you an extra card in a pinch, and most importantly, it can dodge Deed.

[Hoojo]

The way I look at it, having two Tops between my hand and board isn't good, and neither is having two Guiles, BUT, between 3 Guiles and 4 Witnesses, I never have to worry about giving up a draw to use Deed. Try it out; not having to spend the mana every turn is actually quite beneficial.

[sap]

only 1 veteran explorer? yes i hate having 2 in my hand too, but i rather have 2 than 0, by the time you play it using wishes and GSZ you'r already behind.

the point of this deck is to ramp with veteran and drop bombs (while managing to survive if you dont). hows no planeswalkers working for you? planeswalkers are simply the best cards so just play them..

what will goyf do for you? spending 2+2 or 1+2 on goyf seems bad IMO, also 4 witnesses? shes pretty good but having that many (along with wishes and GSZs) means you will spending most of your mana just getting things instead of playing them..

just my opinion, i might be wrong ofc.

[CorpT]

This thread seems completely derailed. 1 Explorer? Come on.

I guess my thought is: why play this over Maverick? I'm trying to come up with a reason and I really can't.

[hyperchord24]

I don't want to bring up fun (this argument always derails into fun = winning tournaments, etc), but I like an aggro control decklist that doesn't run counters (or blue in general) and I like playing fatties. Yes, I'm a Timmy.

[Tao]

eh. It is quite competitive, though I would very much appreciate people being more open to new ideas and playing what is actually better and not what they like better. But speaking of Maverick, one reason to play this is certainly to beat up Maverick.

[CorpT]

eh. It is quite competitive, though I would very much appreciate people being more open to new ideas and playing what is actually better and not what they like better. But speaking of Maverick, one reason to play this is certainly to beat up Maverick.

This is about all I can see. But it seems like you give up a lot of other matchups that Maverick is good at. Like, if it's not a creature deck, Nic Fit seems like it is going to be in trouble whereas Maverick is more forgiving, but loses to Nic Fit.

I really tried and couldn't get Nic Fit to beat most of the combos or burn. Am I wrong there?

[sap]

This is about all I can see. But it seems like you give up a lot of other matchups that Maverick is good at. Like, if it's not a creature deck, Nic Fit seems like it is going to be in trouble whereas Maverick is more forgiving, but loses to Nic Fit.

I really tried and couldn't get Nic Fit to beat most of the combos or burn. Am I wrong there?
nop i dont think you're wrong.
high tide, metalworker combo.. tbh any turn 3-4 combo can wreck this deck unless we have really good draws (discard). also burn is a pain in the ass.

why play it then? just because it has a hard time against some matchups doesnt mean its a bad deck, its a really fun deck to play in a balanced meta imo. i dont know how it became a "deck to beat" deck (that discussion is long gone), but its definately an established deck that if it can survive the first 3-4 turns it generaly wins.

[toor]

Are there any cards you have seen from GW maverick post sb, that have been effective against you guys?

I would assume Elpseth. I am looking to play Maverick at the GP and have a couple slots in my board which I want to use to address Nic Fit (a bad matchup in my limited experience). Is thrun any good?

[Arianrhod]

I'm not sure how exactly the thread derailed into a debate of whether it's good enough to exist as an archetype or not, but I guess I'll chime in.

For me, the deck attacks the legacy meta-meta in a very specific way: the format has been tuned for so long against decks whose bigger threats are 2- and 3- drops that something like this deck, which consistently lands threats deemed vastly too expensive for legacy, absolutely preys on the pre-established paradigm. I can't count the number of times I've resolved a Sun Titan or Kokusho (or Yosei, before I cut him), and my opponent has either just stared at it until he died, or exclaimed that he doesn't have an answer to it and scooped on the spot. Legacy decks aren't built with 4-6 drops in mind, and being able to attack that weakness is something that this deck does like nothing else in the format. That is one reason why I personally believe that the lists that cut all of their 6-drops and most of the 5's are missing the point: if you dumb your creatures down, while you may make them cheaper, you're losing the raw power that defines the archetype. Also of note: for me, Timmy doesn't enter into the equation. The size of the creatures involved comes down to sheer efficiency: the bigger your threat in legacy, the less likely your opponent will be able to deal with it, and the less time you give your opponent to dig out of whatever situation you've put him into.

I will admit some Johnny alongside my Spike, though. Recurring Nightmare is a ridiculous card that should absolutely see more play than it does. IMO, if you're playing this deck, you should be playing Nightmare, because it leads to some of the most broken interactions you will ever experience.

When it comes down to why this deck as opposed to Maverick, though, Tao's point about eating Maverick alive is absolutely accurate. We also have excellent matchups against Stoneblade and RUG*, to say nothing of (currently) less popular archetypes like Zoo. While we give some ground against combo for this, I don't think you'll find a deck better prepared to fight any fair deck in the format. As far as the unfair decks are concerned, that's what a sideboard is for. My personal sideboard (as I can't speak to other peoples') has been crafted with the goal in mind of having most of it available against combo decks, while also having pieces of it useful against specific other decks that I want to shore up my matchup vs. Chains of Mephistopheles is an excellent example: it comes in immediately vs any storm deck, but retains usefulness against Enchantress and blue decks in general.

Think of it this way: Nic Fit is the control/prison version of Maverick, which is an aggro-control deck at its heart. Maverick is able to fight combo through having just enough disruption post-board for their natural aggro plan to come online. Nic Fit should be focusing on using as many prison elements as possible to shut down their opponents' plan, then proceed to drop something fat and close the game down in the span of two or three turns at most, while the opponent is struggling to dig out. I mean, yeah, sure combo is sometimes going to turn one you, and all you can do is smile and offer your hand. That's the price for not playing Force of Will. But I think that running a non-blue control deck gives you enough ground against the rest of the format that if you happen to run into the asshole playing charbelcher, you still come out on top.

I mean, if you want to beat combo every game, I don't know why you're here in the first place. If you want to beat blue and fair decks, then I don't know why you'd play Maverick over this. To each their own, though, I suppose.

* It depends on the type of RUG, though. Delvers can be a little bit of a problem if they come out fast enough and have the counters to back them up. If RUG doesn't have the nuts, though, it usually turns badly for them fairly quickly. We generate way too much value for a tempo strategy to keep up with.

[Tao]

@CorpT/sap:
My latest list that I posted a few pages ago played 3 Huntmaster, 2 GSZ to find them, 2 Batterskull and 4 Living Wish for Obstinate Baloth, 3 IoK, 4 Therapies and 3 SB Duress so Burn is actually a clearly positive matchup for my list. I am switching back and forth between Living Wish and no Living Wish, so without Wish it gets a bit less good but it is still enough for a positive matchup. Probably your list just wasn't built properly for that matchup.

The fact that Combo is the weakest matchup of this deck is no big news, you just have to know what you can beat. You can beat Reanimator and Dredge with the right SB (and play Nihil Spellbomb MD, it is so much potential value atm) and those are imo the most scary Combo decks because unlike Storm Combo they can beat RUG. Other Combo decks will be worse but every deck will have its bad matchups.
Focussing on the Sneak and Tell matchup is a waste of time, the matchup is bad but chances are you won't see it too much on the higher tables. Play a bit discard and pack 3 Diabolic Edicts in the Wishless SB because they target Reanimator, SnT as well as RUG and cross your fingers.

[CorpT]

I'm not saying the deck isn't competitive. It's on my short-list of 2 to take to GP:Indy. I'm just trying to determine what advantage it has over something else (Maverick in this case) and why I should play one over the other.

From what I can tell Nic Fit is good against:
Maverick
RUG
UW Stoneblade
Random Creature decks

Bad against:
Combo
Burn

If I got the tournament expecting mostly what it is good against, especially Maverick, Nic Fit seems like a good choice. If I'm concerned about Combo and Burn, Nic Fit seems like a worse choice. One issue I have is that I only have 1 Bye, so I'm concerned about losing early to Burn.

This isn't to say that Nic Fit is bad, it just has different strengths. So, maybe more to the point, do you think that Indy will have a meta favorable to Nic Fit? I'm concerned about it.

[Arianrhod]

CorpT, it definitely depends on your build. My build, as well as Tao's, are both heavily favored against Burn, while at the same time being very different. Leyline is such a beating against them, though, and if you're really worried about it you can always run Warmth as well. Baneslayer is obviously game over. Just make sure you leave in all of your ways to get rid of Sulfuric Vortex and you should be fine. The straight GB list is really the only one you want to avoid if you're concerned about burn. Either red or white splash has solid options, most of which you want to have access to anyway for other matchups.

Also, from what I've seen/heard of, Burn is an abysmal matchup for Maverick...so I'm not sure you want to be on that plan either if Burn is your concern.

[Qweerios]

I wouldn't say Stoneblade is a favorable matchup. Before I shelved the deck, beating Stoneblade regularly was my primary objective. I don't really have time to explain what makes Stoneblade an even matchup right now. I piloted Nic Fit in at CMT Quebec and realized that in order for Nic Fit to be competitive, an Explorer trigger has to occur within the first 3 turns of the match. Without it, we have a very low land count for our curve, therefore often miss land drops, and cannot deal with early pressure. Any decent tempo opening from Tempo Thresh and Team America backed by a Stifle is near unbeatable. Explorer and Deed being the most exposed to Stifle and the cards we are the most reliant on. With this said, I believe that the only reason this deck thrives in the current meta is because of the disproportionate amount of maverick players around.

[Tao]

I think that my last build covers a lot of the things that get criticized here which makes me feel confident about it being the best version of the deck in the current Meta. I honestly think that it could be the right choice for Indy, but you will have to test yourself.

If you prefer to test without Living Wish my version without Wish has - 4 Wish, + 1 Pulse, + 1 Witness, + 1 Inquisition, + 1 Recurring Nightmare. SB: 3 Surgical, 3 Diabolic Edict, 3 Duress, 1 Ooze, 1 Wickerbough Elder, 2 Damnation, 2 Red Elemental Blast. Both versions seem equally strong so far.

- Cheap removal like P. Fire and Innocent Blood makes you less reliant on Explorer triggers. P Fire is very good vs. Stoneblade because you if you didn't draw Therapy you can just kill the Stoneforge without falling behind on cards and worry about Batterskull later. It also gets Jace and vs. RUG it gets Delver and Lavamancer.
- maindeck Nihil Spellbombs are very very good, I can't stress that enough. If you look at the DtB forum there is not a single deck against which they only cycle without effect. Vs. Dredge and Reanimator it is obvious nuts, vs. Maverick it lets P. Fire eat KotR, vs Stoneblade it reduces the impact of Snapcaster and if they ever have a Crucible you will be thankful for it, vs. RUG it is worst because you usually don't have a lot of time to cycle around but it still shrinks Goyf and takes away Lavamancer/Snapcaster fodder, vs. ANT it at least makes Cabal Ritual worse and stops them from comboing via IGG or Past in Flames.
- Batterskull and Huntmaster make the Burn matchup favorable. Both Batterskull and Huntmaster have been performing very well.

[ZaganOstia]

Here is the list I will most likily end up playing in Indy this weekend:

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless (admittedly I've not really tested this yet)
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Grave Titan
---1 of's for GSZ---
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kitchen Finks

For a long time I was very against adding a third color, but after some serious testing I found that Broodmate Dragon just puts it over the edge. The red lands are just in there to cast the creatures if they happen to end up in your hand, and for the ancient grudge in the board. I've had many question me on dropping a grave titan for a Broodmate. Being able to GSZ into it late game more than makes up for it and the flying is not at all irrelevant either. What I question most it the sideboard, though I am not sure what I want to change in it. Needle had been amazing constantly, and I am also very happy having the grudge over K-grips.

One of the most questionable cards is huntmaster, but I don't really want to take it out. Getting two bodies is nice, and even if it just flips once I am more than happy to take out a Bob, or a Pridemage. Some have been saying you cant get full value out of it since you easily flip it more than once, but like I said, a single flip is still great value. My biggest problem with him is, however, that he is almost always the last of the 4-drops that I grab with GSZ.

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or deck in general?

[Qweerios]

@Tao

I don't think cheap removal makes you any less reliant on an Explorer trigger. Most decks pack as much cheap removal along with even more disruption. The main difference though, is that most decks have a mana curve that caps at 3 CMC and pack the same amount of lands as you do. In the popular decks' situation, cheap removal buys them time in the sense that they can reach their optimal amount of mana to cast everything in their deck because they aren't likely to miss a land drop within the first 3 turns. In the case of Nic Fit, sitting on 3 lands means you can't do jack shit, and the slightest mana disruption leaves you with a bunch of cards you can't play.

I think that if Nic Fit is to have a future, it first has to up its land count to 23-24 to match its mana curve. Equiping the deck with Manlands is basic board-sweeper logic. I also think that any form of 6+ CMC card that cannot be a GSZ target should be dismissed the same way most legacy decks dismiss most 4-drops.

Also, about the whole Timmy vs competitive value debate, I find Baneslayer Angel to be a perfect example. Unless StP becomes a tribal instant, I see no point in playing BsA over Batterskull.

@ZaganOstia

Lose non-gsz singletons and give your deck more consistency.

MB:
-1 Skeletal Scrying (might as well pack a single Pithing Needle for that one time it's going to be useful...)
-1 Titan (Broodmate and Hermit is enough)
-1 Ooze
+1 Top (3rd Top > 2nd Ooze)
+2 Darkblast (very underestimated card that you can use on Explorer and that remains availlable. Great with Top and Witness as well)

You mainboard is supposed to be good against every fair deck. Tweaking your SB for single matchups should be for the ones you cannot win with your mainboard (i.e.: Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, Sneak Show, etc...). You happen to splash Red, so you can easely build a strong SB against all of those matchups.

SB:
-1 Liliana
-1 Finks (Ooze, Finks, and Hunt MB... another Finks won't tilt burn in your favor any more)
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Ancient Grudge (I know you get to use it twice, but 4 GSZ+1 Wicker+3 Pulse+3 Deeds is enough)
-2 Choke (You splash Red, use it...)
+1 Mindbreak
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 REB
+2 Pyroblast

[Qweerios]

Results from CMT with GBw Nic Fit. My list is posted a few pages back:

2-0 Pox

First time I beat pox (I lose to it every week). I had outrageous topdecks in both games. I also opened the first match with a Therapy/Explorer on Liliana and 2 Sinkholes. Game 2 was much closer but I drew into Hermit, Titan, Volrath on an empty board where we were both land flooded.

2-0 GWu Maverick

Epic games, very close both times but a well timed Deed and a clutch Damnation gave me both games. I opened with Therapy + Explorer on the first game and stalled the second at 3 lands for 8+ turns with a pair of Explorers facing a 10/10+ KotR... I am glad he didn't draw a Mom in time (he also mulligan to 5).

2-1 Goblins

I really did 2-0 but I was late to my match (lunch break) and was attributed an instant loss of game 1. The goblin player made lots of mistakes and built his deck on a budget. He met his demise to a Deed followed by an Elspeth Emblem and a Grave Titan.

0-2 GWu Maverick

Same exact list as the player I 2-0'd since they were partners. I lost to a T2 Geist in both games. Explorer was sworded in the first match and my BoP was Submerged twice in the second - Utter defeat. This time around, I was the one to mulligan to 5.

0-2 Team America

I lost to 4 Delvers and a Stifled Deed on game 1. I took 18 points of damage from a Snapcaster after my 2 first fetches were stifled and I was double Hymned. I sat with a Forest and a Swamp in play with 2 StP in hand and a bunch of 3CMC cards in hand until Snap finished me.

0-2 Esper America

I played against a weird deck packing Wasteland, Stifle, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Snapcaster, Bob, Jace, and Riptide Lab. My first 5 basic lands were destroyed in G1, my explorer was sent plowing. I never resolved any spells in both games as I never reached 3 lands.

2-1 Stoneblade

Usual Stoneblade matches, nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing really happened for the first few turns, I lost to Geist and Jace, he lost to Thrun and Grave Titan.

[Koby]

I can't understand how this deck doesn't run a 2nd Ooze. The card does ridiculously unfair things to unfair decks. Even Aggro Loam is running a pair - why is this deck only running one?

[Tao]

Here is the list I will most likily end up playing in Indy this weekend:

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless (admittedly I've not really tested this yet)
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Grave Titan
---1 of's for GSZ---
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kitchen Finks

For a long time I was very against adding a third color, but after some serious testing I found that Broodmate Dragon just puts it over the edge. The red lands are just in there to cast the creatures if they happen to end up in your hand, and for the ancient grudge in the board. I've had many question me on dropping a grave titan for a Broodmate. Being able to GSZ into it late game more than makes up for it and the flying is not at all irrelevant either. What I question most it the sideboard, though I am not sure what I want to change in it. Needle had been amazing constantly, and I am also very happy having the grudge over K-grips.

One of the most questionable cards is huntmaster, but I don't really want to take it out. Getting two bodies is nice, and even if it just flips once I am more than happy to take out a Bob, or a Pridemage. Some have been saying you cant get full value out of it since you easily flip it more than once, but like I said, a single flip is still great value. My biggest problem with him is, however, that he is almost always the last of the 4-drops that I grab with GSZ.

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or deck in general?

Maindeck:
- Have you ever tested with Punishing Fire? It is a beating! Though I guess you decided to go the Liliana route and those two require different Mana.
- Are you sure about Dismembers with RUG and Burn being 2 of the top decks?
- The only questionable thing about Huntmaster is why you don't play more. I think that with red Mana in the deck Huntmaster of the Fells is a better card than Garruk Relentless in every possible way.
- Extirpate over Surgical Extraction is a mistake imo. Vs. Dredge and Pox you desperately need every Mana and even vs. Reanimator and Intuition (on Show and Tell/Emrakul) I think the speed is more often important than being immune to Force of Will (Daze obv. not being an issue).

Sideboard:
- I don't like Mindbreak Trap. It is only good vs. Storm Combo but dead against the combo decks Reanimator and Show and Tell. Duress is less effective in that particular matchup but still good and you can use them in 5x more matchups.
- I would like to see a second Damnation in the SB over Liliana. It is very good vs. Maverick and even nessecary vs. Death & Taxes (which will imo be seen at the Top tables despite being underplayed) if they put Revoker on Deed and protect it with Mother of Runes.
- I like Red Elemental Blast over Choke. Power vs. flexibility again I guess. Choke is great vs. Blade but Blast is still solid there and if a Delver is beating down on you there is no point in choking it. Unlike Choke it is also good vs. all Combo decks except Belcher.

[Philipp2293]

While I agree that Huntmaster is a house (currently running 3) it turned out that relying on him as the main win condition, while fine in many many MUs makes the Fire-Mirror feel really akward, so I cut the 4th but I'm still not sure what to play in the last slot. Currently it's Thrun, as I can drop him on an empy board without worrying about too much. Might as well replace him with Gigapede, or maybe something completely different (P. Titan + Kessig Wolf Run, or maybe even Avenger of Zendikar, preferably something that ends the game really fast.)

Also, I'm not sure about Lili compared to Diabolic Edict MD or maybe something completely different.

I wonder why Acidic Slime isn't played over Wickerbough Elder? I assume his ability to hit lands in long-grindy games (Groves, Academy Ruins, Volraths Stronghold) has quite some appeal.

On a sidenote I have really weird results over the last weeks. Losses to Merfolk and Affinity while beating Belcher and TES? Still got to finish x-0, but so far I'm 19-5 in games since I'm playing the Fire version.

[arcannys]

I wonder why Acidic Slime isn't played over Wickerbough Elder? I assume his ability to hit lands in long-grindy games (Groves, Academy Ruins, Volraths Stronghold) has quite some appeal.

That's because of the 4/4 body.


I assure you guys that im trying to make huntmaster work with all my heart, but i just cant seem to find anything relevant to do at instant speed that's worth passing the turn to flip huntmaster. Until i find that instant speed thread i'll be playing only 1 as a fine tool to search ratrher than make him my main plan.
I guess Pfires and bolt are fine, but those dont rlly justify passing the turn with 5-7 mana untapped.
Let's see if we can come up with something that's worth skipping your turn for... Equipment are great in limited if you want to flip your werewolfs, but i dont think thats good enough in this deck, since all the good equipment is prety cheap anyway and you'd be leaveing a ton of mana unused regardless.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm not saying the deck isn't competitive. It's on my short-list of 2 to take to GP:Indy. I'm just trying to determine what advantage it has over something else (Maverick in this case) and why I should play one over the other.

From what I can tell Nic Fit is good against:
Maverick
RUG
UW Stoneblade
Random Creature decks

Bad against:
Combo
Burn

If I got the tournament expecting mostly what it is good against, especially Maverick, Nic Fit seems like a good choice. If I'm concerned about Combo and Burn, Nic Fit seems like a worse choice. One issue I have is that I only have 1 Bye, so I'm concerned about losing early to Burn.

This isn't to say that Nic Fit is bad, it just has different strengths. So, maybe more to the point, do you think that Indy will have a meta favorable to Nic Fit? I'm concerned about it.

I think you hit the matchups about spot-on, and I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as deciding what to play. I think I'll probably go with Nic Fit because I'm not a good player and I'm sure everyone has tested the shit out of the Maverick matchup. Also Maverick mirrors all day sounds like no fun.

[ZaganOstia]

I assure you guys that im trying to make huntmaster work with all my heart, but i just cant seem to find anything relevant to do at instant speed that's worth passing the turn to flip huntmaster. Until i find that instant speed thread i'll be playing only 1 as a fine tool to search ratrher than make him my main plan.
I guess Pfires and bolt are fine, but those dont rlly justify passing the turn with 5-7 mana untapped.
Let's see if we can come up with something that's worth skipping your turn for... Equipment are great in limited if you want to flip your werewolfs, but i dont think thats good enough in this deck, since all the good equipment is prety cheap anyway and you'd be leaveing a ton of mana unused regardless.

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about running more instants because of him. Late game, there will be times when you drop him and you wont draw into spells, causing him to flip. Also, it can force the opponent to play out spells they wouldn't have otherwise. While I understand you are using this to justify not running more than one of him (I only run one myself), I think that the options he gives you, and forces from your opponent give him more value.

[routlaw]

I can't understand how this deck doesn't run a 2nd Ooze. The card does ridiculously unfair things to unfair decks. Even Aggro Loam is running a pair - why is this deck only running one?

I've never run less than two maindeck. Card is absurd. I even run a third in the board. Legacy is currently a format where you can profitably run maindeck Relic of Progenitus in decks that never want to use their graveyard, and in that kind of format the Ooze is amazing.

[Tao]

What ZaganOstia says is basically it. You are trying to hard. There was an article on ChannelFireball about their Standard RG Ramp deck that played 4 Huntmasters. They started with 1 as a GSZ target, then went to 2 and quickly to 4. The key is that it is a good card on his own even without flipping and flipping it back and forth is a great potential bonus. It is a completely optional upside and there is no need to pass the turn if you got better stuff to do and/or suspect they might have an Instant nor do you have to build the deck around it. If it happens it is awesome, if it doesn't happen it is still fine.

Compared to another staple of this deck you get two 2/2s and two life which is basically a four Mana Kitchen Finks. It is usually a bit better (especially vs. Swords to Plowshares and Jace TMS) but not enough to be worth an additional Mana if that was it. The potential upside is what makes it worth one extra Mana compared to Finks.

[eq.firemind]

Finaly got some time to test Punishing Fire build and it rocks.

Lands (23)
2 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon

Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Living Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
3 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grave Titan
3 Trinisphere

I faced no mana problems while running both Liliana and PFire and, as mentioned earlier, the combination of two is nuts.

Tested Burning Wish, it was not that bad, but two things made it leave my list: 1) Most times I wished for removal of some sort, but there's Maelstrom Pulse to cover everything for less amount of mana, and 2) Living Wish can grab Grove of Burnwillows.

Huntmaster's overall effectieveness against field is on par with Thrun if not one thing: 2+ life saved my ass multiple times vs burn/sligh decks, so 2 Huntmasters stay in. I started with 3, but it's nice to be able to tutor for Scavenging Ooze with both Wish and Zenith.

As for Combo hate, my plan is to use discard, then drop Trinisphere and/or Wish for Magus of the Moon. Magus wins some matchups all by himself, so I suggest it to everyone who runs Living Wish and red mana.


Other cards are more or less obvious and I will be glad to hear your opinions about my list.

[hyperchord24]

Wow. Going red instead of white seems to be the way to go. There was always something about going academy rector --> boss enchantment that makes me hang on, but I'm probably playing an inferior list. It's ironic that Broodmate looks so good with moat.

[Arianrhod]

Went 6-3 at Indy, missing day two by literally one win. I had a round one bye, then proceeded to beat Dredge and Goblins, before dying to GW Maverick and Stoneblade. Then I beat BUG Thresh, Canadian Thresh, died to GW Maverick again, and beat Canadian Thresh again for vengeance from the 8th round. The Maverick losses annoy me, because I think that between 5 games I saw literally one Pernicious Deed. I also had a little bit of mana screw against the second Maverick deck, although that was partially my fault by keeping a horrible hand g2.

I don't really have time at the moment to do any kind of a full report, but I will note the following:

-) Baneslayer is absolutely nuts. She won me multiple games just by being Baneslayer, and having multiple flying threats to get over Moat was definitely relevant.

-) Super secret sideboard tech: Carpet of Flowers. I trimmed out Chains, Stony Silence, and Selkie for a triple of them Friday night. It's a beautiful backup mana source, and it single-handedly won me multiple games against Canadian Thresh. One game my opponent had a triple-Wasteland hand, but I had double Carpet of Flowers, and they gave me enough mana to keep myself afloat until I dug out of that situation.

-) I resolved like three Tsunamis, and they were marvelous every time. Of the three, my opponent was only able to dig out of it once, and by that point it was far, far too late to do anything.

[bruizar]

I've been thinking about Crime // Punishment.

This card looks really good. It costs the same as an Engineered Explosives that you'd activate the turn it comes into play, and its quicker than Pernicious Deed. Alternatively it gives you a threat by stealing a goyf or knight. It also dodges stifle. This deck doesn't have the mana problems to cast it either, and you can run more than 4 deeds this way.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

-) Super secret sideboard tech: Carpet of Flowers. I trimmed out Chains, Stony Silence, and Selkie for a triple of them Friday night. It's a beautiful backup mana source, and it single-handedly won me multiple games against Canadian Thresh. One game my opponent had a triple-Wasteland hand, but I had double Carpet of Flowers, and they gave me enough mana to keep myself afloat until I dug out of that situation.



Hey, I suggested that card in this very thread! Hadn't put in enough testing with it in relevant matchups to actually determine how well it performs in this deck though, but I'm glad someone did the legwork for me. :cool: Sorry you missed day two, but congrats on the finish anyhow.

[Arianrhod]

Ah, excellent! I definitely missed that post -- good thing that great minds think alike, then, I suppose. As a backup ramp source it was awesome...I think that I wasn't boarding properly with it, though, since I was boarding as I usually do (shaving expensive threats that are too slow for specific matchups, esp. tempo), instead of adapting to using Carpet. With Explorers and Carpets, you can easily go big in games two and three vs tempo, which usually you can't do after they see how the deck works. If you have Canadian Thresh in your meta, Carpet is -the- go-to answer IMO. Stoneblade is a little more subjective...their lists can vary greatly between pilots.

[moseby]

For the straight B/G version I have seen a version run tragic slip in the dismember slot. It seems interesting

[Tao]

A bit disappointing that no Nic finished in Indy. Good job Arian though.

But I feel that the deck was kind of underplayed, the Punishing Fire version can certainly beat RUG, Maverick and UW. Dredge is a SB thing, only Solidarity is really unpleasant. Not sure about the Esper deck matchup, Lingering Souls seems like sick tech.

[routlaw]

I've played a couple of matches on both sides of the Lingering Souls/Nic Fit equation, and with straight G/B it's pretty miserable. They get an entire air force with one card and it takes a Deed or Pulse to clear it out. You still have the Veteran Explorer/Jace problem in that matchup as well, alongside the huge annoyance of Batterskull if your opponent actually understands how to manipulate the card's abilities in this matchup.

That specific list appears to be pretty manageable with a Punishing Fire build though, as that deck doesn't have good ways to keep you off your Groves.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, after 13 hours on the road today getting home I don't really have much to say that's intelligent or even rational. I will note though RE: Tao that I honestly only saw one, MAYBE two other people even trying to play with Veterans at Indy, for the main event anyway. There may have been some in side events...I dunno. The one I can remember for sure seeing was straight G/B, and I think that the phantom maybe other sighting was G/B as well, but I might be just confused. Either way, I honestly think that it's more of a case that nobody played the deck -- I think that everyone else who was going to audibled to Maverick last minute. I'll try to post something more elaborate tomorrow. For now, I'm going to go pass out.

[DrHealex]

A friend of mine played the BGW pod version (he plays pod in all formats!) and had one bye. I "THINK" he went 5-3. I saw him get some sweet yosei recursion wins though. His game1s seemed to last forever since I saw 2 of his game 2s end in a draw (though he won the 1st).
i am not overly surprised that it is underrepresented. I have not played against the deck in the large legacy tournys, besides playtesting with him. (though i will prolly need to switch out maverick if he decides to play at the lgs with it)

[rafulton]

I played G/B in Indy this past weekend.

I can post the exact list if you want later, but I am at work and I was tweaking the build it right up until the point of registering the deck so I may forget the exact build.


Rnd 1: Bye
(1-0)

Rnd 2: Dredge
Lets not talk about this one, I made 3 of the dumbest play mistakes in ONE turn to cost myself the game.
(1-1)

Rnd 3 & 4: Natural Order & Sneak&Tell (Don't have my notes so order my be backwards)
(2-1)
(3-1)

Rnd 5: Storm (Tendrils of Agony)
My opponent got warnings for slow play, so much so that a judge came and sat next to him and continued to tell him to move it along, of course this made it go to game 3 and he beat me in turn 4 of overtime after his 3rd silence in a row.
(3-2)

Rnd 6: UW Blade
(3-3)

Rnd 7: RUG
(4-3)

Decided to drop after this round and give my opponent the win due to the fact that I had no chance of making day two and I was super hungry.

I can expand on these games later, back to work.

[zalachan]

Yesterday i played the exact Punishing Nic Fit list that eq.firemind posted not long ago. Thanks for sharing!
The tourney went well, i top 4ed 49 man tourney and that's more than i expected since i didn't really have time to test matchups and all.

Brief synopsis (as far as i remember, my notes suck):
Round 1 - Burn. 2-1, i try to strip his burn first and then ramp with Explorer. He almost got me, but i stabilize on Huntmaster and then Baloth.

Round 2 - RUG. 1-2. I can't remember first round, i think Delver got unanswered and i got my Top Forced. Second game he makes a mistake and boards in Counterbalance that didn't really counter anything and i got something going, i forgot what. 3rd game he had that nice 1st turn Delver into gas and i mulled to 6 where i got 3 lands- a fetch and 2 nonbasics. I keep but he Stifles my fetch and Wasted me, plays 2 Brainstorms and Goyf and that's all she wrote.

Round 3 - Reanimator. i won 2-1. I discard his Entomb and he doesn't draw into creatures. I cast Ooze, he Forces, then gets Study and Reanimates Iona on green. I mise Innocent Blood from the top and win with Fires (he was on 5 after Reanimate). Second game, he resolves Jin-Gintaxias which i manage to destroy with Fire, but the draw 7 got him enough to win. Third game it was stalemate and i ripped Ooze to win on the spot.

Round 4 - Burn with Lavamancer. i won 2-0, basically same as game one, strip their hand, then accelerate into Deed and then Huntmaster and/or Living Wish. He also played Ball Lightnings, but i chumped with tokens and Huntmasters. Opponent was kinda flooded all the time, at times i didn't have targets for Therapy, but did it for Explorer.

Round 5 - RUG. Can't remember the details. First game i Therapy him, then Explorer and he clearly isn't happy. I drop Deed and Huntmaster i think. Second game he put me on 6, but is in topdecking mode, so i Wish for Magus so he needs 2 bolts or 1 Bolt plus threat, which he doesn't.

Round 6 - Esper Blade, i won 2-0. Throughout the first game I Fired 3 of his Jaces, 6 of his tokens (weren't really a threat, but i wanted to preserve Deed) and gained him like 10 life. Then i spinned Top and saw Therapy, Wish, Dragon. he Forced Therapy and that was it. Second game was kinda similar, he was flooded and didn't have enough to put any pressure on me. After the game he tells me he got really flooded. Seems that thining out lands for your opponents doesn't do enough:)

Round 7 - RUG, i won 2-0. First turns he Ponders and i Top for lands. Then he drops 2 waves of dudes. First wave i manage to Fire Delver, then second wave I find a lucky Deed with top when i'm on 6 and i clear the board of Mongoose, Goyf, Snapcaster, Delver. Second game i think i also Therapy him, he Brainstorms in response and draws 3 lands of the top, then hides something on top, which get shuffled away when i flashback Therapy on Explorer. Since i see his grip is bunch of nonbasics, i wish for Magus, then lock him out with Lili+Huntmaster+Fire.

Semifinals - Gw 12-post Eldrazi I lost 0-2. First game he gets Exploration first turn and i don't get any discard, so he gets Titan and then Emrakul. Game 2, i slow him down with Magus, but i don't have basic Swamp, so i can't Innocent Blood Titan away and drop Broodmate. He drops another Titan and ramps to 15 lands, then drops Emmy again.

So i finished 3-4th and got Bayou and Plateau. I dodged all the bad matchups (combo i guess?) and fed on tempo strategies and Burn all day.
The last match was pretty unfavorable i guess. He basically did to me what i did to all those thresh decks whole day and i guess that's karma..
All in all this is really nice deck for current meta. Punishing Fire was all around awesome and better than Swords most of the time.

[eq.firemind]

The tourney went well, i top 4ed 49 man tourney and that's more than i expected since i didn't really have time to test matchups and all.
Wow, that's actually more than I expected from my crappy deckbuilding skills :smile:
I've got couple of questions:
1) How usable was Trinisphere?
2) Did you Wished for Grove just to assemble manabase versus unlucky draws/tempo strategies?
I mean, they can only have that much wastelands and Grove taps for that :r: to burn their Delver with PFire...
3) How often did you Zenith for Witness?
With PFire recursion Witness feels less and less needed...

[zalachan]

Wow, that's actually more than I expected from my crappy deckbuilding skills :smile:
I've got couple of questions:
1) How usable was Trinisphere?
2) Did you Wished for Grove just to assemble manabase versus tempo strategies?
I mean, they can only have that much wastelands and Grove taps for that :r: to burn their Delver with PFire...
3) How often did you Zenith for Witness?
With PFire recursion Witness feels less and less needed...


1) I boarded it against Burn and didn't really see it. I guess IF you draw all the discard first and Trini later, it can be good, but as i mentioned, i didn't get to see the effect.
2) I haven't really Wished for Grove whole day. At one moment i wished i had a basic Swamp to wish for, but that was marginal case in the last game when i was under Magus. Against tempo i Wished for Shriekmaw but idk if that is the correct choice. I never lacked red mana when i had Fire against Delver, but in the mentioned scenario i probably would go for Grove.
3) I never really did it. I searched mostly for Huntmaster or Explorer, and once i did for a Dragon. But Witness was still good when i drew it. The irony is, that more than once i recurred Punishing Fire with it, because i didn't have the Groove:laugh: But mostly i just returned fetches to fix my basics.

The wishlist seems good and well rounded, but maybe a wishable sweeper wouldn't be that bad. Something similar to Caldera Helion? Just brainstorming though.

[Tao]

Just for comparison I posted a Punishing Fire list with Wish a while ago, too. It has the Hellion in the Wishboard.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-DTB-Nic-Fit-%28GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29&p=621942&viewfull=1#post621942

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The wishlist seems good and well rounded, but maybe a wishable sweeper wouldn't be that bad. Something similar to Caldera Helion? Just brainstorming though.


Just for comparison I posted a Punishing Fire list with Wish a while ago, too. It has the Hellion in the Wishboard.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-DTB-Nic-Fit-%28GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29&p=621942&viewfull=1#post621942

I realize it's usually harder to get triple black in Jund lists than it is to get double red, but I feel like Massacre Wurm has a lot of upside as a Living Wish target, compared to Caldera Hellion. He generally leaves you with a better body, and he's not going to kill any of your dudes. Granted, he does kill less stuff than Hellion, but with the general lack of tribal decks in today's metagame, the difference between killing an x/3 and killing an x/2 seems more marginal than it used to when Merfolk and Goblins were more prevalent concerns. Also, Hellion works as an Explorer sac outlet, but I feel like this matters less than how he kills himself if you don't have anything to sac to him. Besides Explorer, we have no incentive to kill our own dudes, and we already have plenty of ways to throw him under the bus. And last but not least, Wurm has the two life for each creature killed benefit, which can help out given this deck's slow clock. Anyways, I've liked Wurm as a Wish target in testing, he makes Maverick players go seriously on tilt. I did find that tweaking the manabase of a Jund list to accommodate triple black was a significant strain, but not impossible. And while you're already there, you get to run Liliana alongside P Fire. ^^

[muscleb]

I can't possibly see how you can reliably get tripple black.
I for one think it is almost impossible to play Liliana in Punishing Fire Nic Fit.

Show me the manabase!

[Tao]

Yeah, triple Black won't work reliably enough. I think a very good Wish target atm is Sulfur Elemental. Useful vs. Maverick to get Mothers/Mindcensors if you dont have a Deed and useful to get Lingering Soul tokens.

[sap]

man this thread has been losing activity lately..

im getting sick of the punishing fire version, is pretty awsome against jace, the mind sculptor but i cant deal with combo and fast decks (except burn, ive been having a lot easier time against burn game 1 with a jund build).. im thinking in going back to rock with an enlightened tutor sideboard package. anyone tried that before?

no more academy rector and recurring nightmare they're just too slow if you cant manage to veteran explorer in the first couple of turns.

with enlightened tutor (maybe even a 1 or 2 of MD) we can build the academy rector package more consistently, even tho we cant play unfair high CC enchants (timmy enchants didnt work anyway).

also i've been running ensnaring bridge on the sideboard, maybe its the MTGO meta but theres show and tell, sneak attack, eureka, hypergenesis, natural order and 12 post eldrazi everywhere so its been really useful.

[D. Watta]

I came up with a list recently that pushes for consistency over late game bombs and is a blast to play. I went 3-0 at my LGS this past weekend, defeating UR burn, Dredge, and Maverick. I'm going to post it as there's been little activity lately, and I'd love to hear some feedback. Excuse the lack of card tags, but these cards are all stock and recognizable anyway.

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, The Last Troll

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Diabolic Edict
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

SB:

3 Tsunami (High Tide, StoneBlade, Canadian Thresh)
2 Dark Blast (Maverick)
1 Cranial Extraction (Combo)
1 Loaming Shaman//Gaddock Teeg (Combo, Dredge)
4 Duress (Combo)
4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge, Combo)


Why Fact or Fiction? For me, it was initially a toss up between Intuition and Gifts Ungiven. However, I wanted the blue splash to be minimal, and both Intuition and Gifts inclined me to start including one-ofs in the form of Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, and a plethora of other singletons that I felt would create for more inconsistencies than I'd like.

It was as I flipped through some of my cards that I stumbled across Fact or Fiction, unplayed since my MUC days. It's perfect. It is 4 cc, which helps you curve out (strangely possible for this kind of deck) and, since we're trying to take advantage of large amounts of land, is preferable to the 3 cc Intuition. Also, it drops a full 5 cards split between the graveyard and hand which, in a deck running two Recurring Nightmare and 3 Eternal Witness, is like a d5. On top of all of this, Fact or Fiction has an amazing effect on your opponent--it puts players on tilt like nothing else. Seeing, for instance, a Pernicious Deed, Diabolic Edict, second Fact or Fiction, Green Sun's Zenith, and Eternal Witness with six to seven land in play is wilting for the opposition.

In short, it puts the engine fully online, and rewards the deck for playing with so many multiples. Also, I believe it ideal for all our creatures to be GSZ-able. This deck is, in ways, a descendant of the old SurviVeteran decks that did their best to survive the first three turns, then on the back of a deadly enchantment (Pernicious Deed here, SotF there) turn the game in our favor. With this in mind, our tutor must be of utmost versatility and our deck one of utmost resiliency.

Hm. That is all.

[AggroSteve]

long time lurker in this thread now, and i really need to speak my mind..... i love the looks of this deck as i allways was a ROCK-player (oldschool and new one)

when i first saw this deck i fell in love with it, i am just lacking time and money right now to get the missing cards for it

anyway, a few things i did not really get is why would it be needed to splash a 3rd color, the deck works quite fine in only GB or am i missing something?
the whitesplash seem so extremely slow to me, and the redsplash for punishing fires seems overkill to me as this deck allready plays 3-4 deed plus spotremoval

i have to admit i somehow like the bluesplash für fact or fiction, i thought of a few scenarios at it really is a "now your screwed-spell", because everything in this deck gives sick amount of cardadvantage or is at least hard to deal with

@D. Watta, i was wondering why you use diabolic edict instead of some spotremoval, or is it because you are allready satisfied with pulse and deed covering everything else? in that case why not liliana of the veil, as it would have more value than diabolic edict

thanks

[daPaule]

@D. Watta, i was wondering why you use diabolic edict instead of some spotremoval, or is it because you are allready satisfied with pulse and deed covering everything else? in that case why not liliana of the veil, as it would have more value than diabolic edict

thanks

I can just speak from my experience: Currently Liliana has kind of a hard time staying alive on her own. Recently I ran into a lot of decks playing Manlands&Planeswalkers and/or a flashy creature where the +1 did nothing and she got toasted by factories. Also Sneak Attack as a kind of excuse where you could still make them sacrifice the sneaked creature.

I originally tried innocent blood instead of liliana but the problem is the same, except that blood could also save yourself from a Lackey. Anyhow now I'm also testing 3 edicts.

[Qweerios]

@AggroSteve

Diabolic Edict is great because you can actually flash it back. It is also guaranteed card advantage when you resolve a Fact or Fiction.
EDIT: Scratch that, I was thinking about Chainer's Edict.

On unrelated news, I made top 8 of CMT Ottawa yesterday losing the first round to NO Bant. I was playing a straight BG version that I really didn't expect to perform too well because I initially intended to play GBw but defaulted to GB due to card availlability. Here's the list:


Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (5)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Damnation
4 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Gigapede


Round 1: 2-0 Bant Aggro
Round 2: 1-2 Stoneblade (Lost to Jace and Elspeth)
Round 3: 2-0 Burn
Round 4: 2-1 Death and Taxes
Round 5: 2-1 SnT/Hypergenesis Combo
Round 6: 2-0 Affinity

Round 1/8: 1-2 NO Bant (Lost to Elspeth)

Afterthoughts:

-Jace and Elspeth remain constant issues for Nic Fit and I intend to remedy that with Trample (Kodama of the North Tree, Treetop Village).

-Innocent Blood is Therapy #5-8 and makes me want to look back into Abyssal Persecutor as he is right on the curve to fight Planeswalkers post-Explorer/Therapy.

-Ooze and Finks were sided out nearly every game and Volrath's Stronghold would have been better off being a Treetop Village (12 creatures).

[moseby]

Let me preface what I am about to say is that I don't get a great deal of time to play anymore, despite still enjoying doing so. This is the second time taking nicfit to a tournament, and my first time splashing red. 25 Dudes showed for an unlimited ruby @ Worlds Collide in the dirty Shwa

The list:
5 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
3 bayou
1 badland
1 tagia
4 verdant catacombs
3 tagia
1 windswept heath
1 phyrexian tower
1 arbor dryad

2 broodmate dragon
1 thrun, the last troll
1 troll ascetic
1 wickerbough elder
1 kitchen finks
4 veteren explorer
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze

3 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed
2 dismember
1 Innocent Blood
3 sensei's divining top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal therapy
3 liliana of the viel
2 inquisition of kozilek

Board:
4 mindbreak trap
3 extripate
1 nilith spellbomb
1 damnation
1 tormods crypt
1 eternal witness
2 obstinate baloth
2 ancient grudge

A quick run down, Broodmate, and ancient grudge were awesome every time I saw them. I choose to splash red was for grudge, and broodmate seemed like a great choice to go along with it, innocent blood was also a new addition, but I never saw it the entire tournement.

Quicky report, notes are at home
R1 Esper Blade with lingering souls.
I think I go 2-0 but F lingering souls 1 card that chump blocks thrun for 4 turns. It seems like a great card for anyone running equipment, but deed, and pulse are a paddling for it.

R2 Fish: W 2-1, I think
One of the games he is sitting with a LoA he just dropped, and fully powered coral helm and 2 curse catchers I am at about 5 life with a dismember inhand, I have 1 dragon token in play I rip another broodmate like a champeen trade his board for mine, pretty sure I won that one. If that had have been titan I was dead on board.

r3 R W B painter servant 2-0
He has a bunch of duress effects both games, and 1 half of the combo but no gas, and he gets rolled.

R4 counter burn ID,
He offers the ID, and I take it as we are both 3-0 as we all know it is not a great matchup. for S&G we play it out and I win 2-1, games 2, and 3 siding in the baloths.


R5 Wilkin and his bloody B/W good stuff deck we ID

Top 8: Wilkin, every dam game either either starts off with a T1 bob or hymn.
G1: I get an early wickerbough, but I get greedy and blow it on his chrome mox and not be intelligent and wait for a better target. He drowns me with card advantage from a bob wearing a SoFI.

G2 He gets greedy and keeps a 1 lander + mox
He drops a T1 bob I T2 grudge the mox, he doesnt get a land, I T3 pulse the bob, he scoops shortly there after.

G3 I have a couple of punts to throw the game away as I get pounded by flying germ tokens and drowned by faerie tokens blocking dudes I throw at Elspeth.

[D. Watta]

@ AggroSteve

Barring combat tricks, most targeted removal in black is restrictive (creature must have 5 or less power (dismember), creature must not be an artifact (Go for the Throat) and so on. Diabolic Edict is restrictive based on board state, which we have a much easier time dictating as opposed to what creatures our opponents have included. This, plus the fact that in retaliation of so many UWx Blade decks utilizing 4 StP and 4 Snapcaster Mage, a rise in Shroud and Hexproof creatures is inevitable (Nimble Mongoose, Troll Ascetic, Geist of St. Taft) and, in addition, gives us an out to an active Mom and an otherwise empty board.

Liliana is pretty major, and the very crafting of our deck does make her asymmetrical, but I believe it would benefit us, particularly when splashing a third splash color, to minimize our double black or double splash color mana spells. And while I did consider Chainer's Edict, the necessity of having some instant speed removal is not to be underestimated, for reasons suggested by daPaule. Plus, when playing with 5 Eternal Witness (I consider each GSZ to be half of a potential target) and Recurring Nightmares, you find your graveyard to be an extension of your hand, indeed giving Diabolic Edict virtual 'flashback' over and again many fold.

[zalachan]

Considering splashes, i really like red splash. Punishing Fire is strong right now, since it kills a lot of important stuff. Ok, not everything, but catch-all removal is hard to find.

1) You can't rely on the Deed plan to get you to the late game, since Maverick will slowroll you and will not overextend into Deed and with Punishing Fire plus Therapy you force them to do that anyway.
2) Planeswalkers. Nothing is worse than helping your opponent ramp into early JaceTMS, then sit there helplessly while they bury you with card advantage. With Fires you can sit back and take your time while you ping their walkers and blockers and they have to find something that sticks or a solution to the Fires engine. Even if they Wasteland your Grove, you still get some value out of it.
3) Witness, Explorer or tokens are pretty suboptimal blockers, but with Fires, you can turn combat math in your favor.
4) Also- Fires on your own Explorer is pretty good, if you need to ramp fast.

The cons:
1) It's not really a removal spell, when it comes to the big guys.
2) Snare-able - not really a drawback, since it has "buyback", but you can get blown out of the water sometimes.
3) Mana intensive. But since this is a ramp deck..

It really boils down to the fact that you can ping planeswalkers while also being a removal spell. Rock lacks in anti-PW department (Pulse+Therapy also work, i guess) and white doesn't really offer anything of help there.

[Greenpoe]

It really boils down to the fact that you can ping planeswalkers while also being a removal spell. Rock lacks in anti-PW department (Pulse+Therapy also work, i guess) and white doesn't really offer anything of help there.
Did you forget about Vindicate and O-Ring?

[zalachan]

Did you forget about Vindicate and O-Ring?

Not really, but that's just Pulse variants. I don't say that vindicate effects are bad or anything, but there's a finite number of slots for 3cc sorcery speed catch-all spells (3 Deed and 3 Pulse or something like that).
I wouldn't really play O-Ring, outside of certain scenarios (big tentacle monsters come to mind) since it's pretty bad.

[Arianrhod]

Faith's Fetters is better than O-Ring by a mile in this deck. Shutting down a planeswalker so that they need to legend-rule him before playing another is pretty boss. The one disadvantage is that it freezes the walker at whatever his loyalty was at, but I haven't had that be a problem for me historically.

I wouldn't say so much that Rock lacks in the anti-PW dept. as that we don't run the cards that are good against walkers. Qweerios is spot on with trampling monstrosities -- legacy players are used to dropping a Elspeth, making a soldier to chump, and expecting her to survive. Likewise, we don't have the aggro presence of a traditional junk/rock deck, with Goyfs and Knights. Furthermore, we aren't running Hex/Depths, which is an even further answer (just the Hex, let alone the token). The tools exist, we simply don't run them.

I've been beginning to hear some rumblings on Twitter and other places that GSZ might be the next card to get banned, some number of months in the future (obv. not an immediate threat, but an eventual one). If the meta fails to adapt to Maverick, I can see it happening....at this point, I would argue that Maverick is resembling Survival more than we are, and taking 6/8 spots in the top eight of a pretty hefty SCG Open skill-wise is saying something. Although it is worth noting that the Invitational top 8 was dramatically more prepared for Maverick.../shrug. Regardless, I believe that we should look into the Living Wish idea more seriously; not because drawing "blanks" in our deck is a bad thing, but because it lets us A: run more gas, B: run more situational answers to problems (hi, Hexmage, Canonist, etc), and C: if the day comes when GSZ gets banned, we wouldn't have to waste time adapting because the theory will have already been worked out. Disclaimer: I believe that the meta is going to adapt, and that Zenith won't need to be banned anytime in the near future. The fact remains, however, that it is a very, very powerful tutor, and that Wizards really doesn't like it when those start to run rampant.

I propose that we begin by making a list of Wish targets that are actually viable, for each of the different color combinations. Note that I am also of the opinion that this does -not- mean that we largely cut creatures from our maindecks. Perhaps trim some situational targets, etc, but I firmly believe that drawing some threats maindeck is always preferable to having to Wish for any bombs at all.

Any list:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Sylvok Replica
Yixlid Jailer
Phyrexian Revoker
Vampire Hexmage
extra Eternal Witness?

The three splashes:

Doran:

Canonist
Kataki
Magus of the Tabernacle?

Jund:

Sulfur Elemental
Anathamancer?

Mimeoplasm:

Simic Sky Swallower
Trygon Predator

Obviously there's a lot missing, and this is more intended by way of stirring discussion as opposed to being a complete list.

I have been giving a lot of thought to the BUG idea lately, I'll admit. I very much still love my Rector list, but I do wonder if BUG is better in general. You gain Brainstorm, Gifts and Fact-or-Fiction, Jace TMS, Consec. Sphinx and a lot of really good UG creatures, at the cost of being able to run Swords, Sun Titan, Leyline of Sanctity and the Rector package, Moat, Baneslayer, etc. You also lose the ability to Tsunami people, though, which feels poor. Card is such a horrific beating in legacy.

[hyperchord24]

Here are a list of creatures (beaters) I've run or would like to try in my GBw build

non-Zenithable:

Sun Titan
Baneslayer Angel[/card]
[cards]Grave Titan
Helldozer
Visara the dreadful

Zenithable:

Ghave
Doran
Teneb, The Harvester
Kodama of the North Tree
Gaea's Revenge

I tried Grave Titan, Vulturous Zombie and Mystic Enforcer and all were underwhelming. In the case of the latter two, I just wanted Baneslayer, but could zenith for her (obviously). Ghave seems like it would be good, but Doran is cheaper and just as big and zenithable. Helldozer was too clunky and really all Visara is is a big finisher that flies that isn't outlandishly expensive. Gaea's revenge was nice except when I had moat/cards] out. [cards]Thrun maybe better at sticking around against blue decks and infinitely cheaper.

I'm looking to see what happens when I cut GSZ because I've cut a lot off the cheaper green stuff so I can run more controling cards to beat faster decks like Zoo, Sligh and Thresh. Deed just never seems enough.

[dscherli]

@ Qweerios: green t-shirt at the CMT? I saw you in top 8. I missed it on breakers, also on BG. Saw someone else there playing BGw as well. I'm surprised you lost to that Bant deck, I beat it in the swiss in round 3, mulling to 5 in one game even, though I had to rip land to cast my 1-of Damnation to kill his Proggy that game. Deeds are just so good against them. He seemed pretty tilted, but it's a good matchup. I believe the NO Plan was from his SB. It was kind of scary but Damnation and Lili (or Deed if that amount of mana ever happens) take care of Proggy at least.

My losses were to the Hive Mind and Esper Stoneblade decks that were in the t8. Hive Mind was just a nightmare, I knew what he was on as I'd sat next to him in round 3, and pretty much knew I was going to lose g1, which I did, and quickly. I mulled into a therapy and a fetch for an Arbor to flash it back, but he had Brainstorm both times to protect his stuff and killed me on his t4. In game 2 I resolved 2 Therapies, flashed one back, got a Hymn flusterstormed and had an Extirpate in hand but never got a combo piece into the GY. He wound up hardcasting his Hive Mind for the kill. My sideboard is nearly all combo hate, but I didn't have much to bring in against Hive Mind. I boarded out removal for by 3 Extirpates and my Gaddock Teeg. I pretty much expected to lose and the games were pretty lighthearted and we talked about them after. I didn't really know what to Therapy for against him, especially after he responded with Brainstorm, and he gave me some advice there. I'd scooped the same guy in round 6 of standard the day previous as he was close to Q'ing and I'm not.

I feel pretty good about the Esper matchup, but my draws in our game were just horrible. In game 1 I mulled to five, bricked on land for a while then drew nothing but land. He had a slow start but eventually beat me down with a random assortment of dudes. In game 2 I extirpated his Lingering Souls after he intuitioned for them, which felt pretty good, but I flooded out and lost to Jace. My wins were against Sea Stompy (yeah, seriously), UR, Bant and RuG.

I played a straight GB list and couldn't see splashing another colour. We don't need more removal (Swords/Punishing Fire) and other stuff people splashing are running is just too cute imo (Rector, Sun Titan, etc.). Beware the danger of cool things. Also I loooooove my Hymns.

The list I ran:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Grave Titan
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforets
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
6 Forest
3 Swamp

SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Zuran Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damnation
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg

Changes I made after are: MD: -1 Skeletal Scrying, +1 Garruk Relentless. I want something that can still give me tons of CA while also being a win-con. He can also kill delvers and tons of utility dudes. Might try Primal Hunter just because he draws cards, but Relentless seems sweet so I'm testing him for now.
SB Changes: -2 Zuran Orb, +1 Eternal Witness, +1 Liliana of the Veil. Lots of people in Ottawa playing burn so I boarded some orbs as this deck makes great use of them. Didn't need them against UR though, and honestly I tested burn during the weekend and feel fine about the matchup. Therapy, Hymn, Ooze and Finks are all a very big game against them.

Treetop Village are also a good idea, Jace really is a problem and they would help immensely. I saw some people talking about running 2 of them and a Primeval Titan (also a big Trampler). Has anyone tried this?

Also has anyone tried Dread of Night in the board? It doesn't necessarily help problem MUs but it ranches two of the 3 t1 decks (Maverick and Esper, the other t1 deck being RuG, imo). Another card I'm curious about is Terravore, just for a cheap beater we can Zenith for.

I love the deck and feel good about a lot of the top-tier MUs at the moment. What would really put the deck over the top would be a really powerful walker (i.e Jace/Elspeth) in our colours, or a better late-game Zenith target. Here's hoping for something in Avacyn Restored!

[Tao]

Your MD looks pretty good. For the SB the reason why I don't like Mindbreak Trap is that it does nothing against Reanimator and Hive Mind. For the life gain Dark Heart of the Wood is basically a strict improvement to Zuran Orb if that is the kind of effect you want.

[dscherli]

I think Orb beats out Dark Heart as it costs 0 and you can sac any land, meaning you can sac swamps, arbor, tower and uncracked fetches (which saves an additional life). I cut the Orbs from the board anyway, though. What would you run over Mindbreak Trap? I already have a lot of hate for Reanimator. Hive Mind trounced me pretty soundly but isn't so popular, and I'd rather not just roll over to storm. Though I did beat a high tide deck 2-0 last week! Hymns and Therapies ftw!

[Qweerios]

@dscherli

Yep, green shirt was me. I lost 1-2 to NO Bant which was a matchup heavily in my favor. I lost G1 to a T3 NO/Prog hidden by Brainstorm that I helped power out via an Explorer/Therapy. I took 20 points of damage before I could activate my Deed and lay a Liliana on Prog (1 turn short). Even in retrospect, I had this game lost despite my huge second therapy blunder, there was nothing I could have done differently to win that one. I took G2 with a tripple Liliana opening that my opponent never recovered from. I lost G3 to a mulligan to 5 followed by 5 consecutive land draws while facing an Elspeth. 8 lands in play for 1 Explorer, 1 Therapy, 2 Damnation, and a Liliana, the Elspeth emblem activation is what made me scoop. Sometimes the deck will poop on you, so is Magic. I am just very happy to have made top 8 despite the improvised decklist and the fact that I hadn't slept (finished work at 2am and left from Montreal at 7:30).

I agree with you that straight GB is the way to go. I started off with GB, then I played GBr (before PFire), then GBw for a long time but so far, there is nothing essential that the third color brings to the table.

I made a few changes to my list since and I have been very pleased by the replacement of Deranged Hermit by Kodama of the North Tree. A genuine titan against Stoneblade and Planeswalkers. He also allows me to draw 6 cards with a Garruk and a GSZ.

As far as the burn matchup is concerned, a couple of Obstinate Baloth really swing the matchup in our favor, moreso than Finks. It is also very strong against UR Delver, any tempo deck (especially Hymn), and even Pox which is by no means a bye.

[TheArchitect]

I've been really liking GB. For reference, the list I have been running:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
2 Grave Titan

2 Go for the Throat
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village


Sideboard:
2 Duress*
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Massacre*
3 Tsunami
1 Tree of Redemption*
1 Kitchen Finks

Garruk Primal hunter is a champ, I really cant imagine playing GB without 2 of him. I tried relentless and was not a fan. Primal Hunter, can draw you a ton if hes just going to get hit with fliers or something. If he sticks around making 3/3s each turn and drawing 3+ is enough to get there, and if you can do his -6 you probably win.

If you haven't tried one Prime titan and 2 treetops, I would strongly urge you to try them. They take the spot of Deranged hermit or Kodama of the North tree. 12 power with trample that doesnt die to single target removal for 7mana+GSZ is just what this deck needs for its late game finisher. Also, he can grab phyrexian tower and volraths stronghold recur witness+removal, or a titan every turn. Also, treetop villages are more often than not nice to draw into, or see in an opening hand. They are great for hitting JTMS and elspeths too (trample, and not a creature during their turn).

Things with the * I am unsure about.
- Dryad arbor: I feel like I open or draw into arbor when I really need a basic or bayou more often than I actually need to fetch/gsz into arbor. I might just cut it for a 4th bayou or a basic.
- Duress: I'd like something so I don't just roll over to hivemind/storm. I'm not really sure how to do this without investing too many slots of hate for it and thus weakening match ups that I should be winning. I might just put Nihil spellbombs in here to and accept that I have a really bad matchup to those decks.
- Massacre: I haven't had enough time to test this. Im not sure if it will better than dread of night. Its nice that hits SFM, snapy, clique, traft and delver (in x/u/w).
- Tree of redemption: If you can slow burn or TES down with discard and land tree, it buys you ALOT of time and I haven't lost where I can untap with it. But it costs 4, 5 with GSZ and needs to untap to do anything. I would really like something I can drop turn 1 or 2. Maybe I should try Zuran orb here? I wish there was a like a 1 or 2 drop green creature that could gain you a decent amount of life.

One thing I could use some help with is what to take out against UW/esper blade. Bringing in Tsunamis and Massacres seems like a no brainier. Taking out Go for the throats and... idk. Any suggestions?

[Alexeezay]

@TheArchitect:
I think 2 Massacre SB are enough so you could play 4 Duress :)

With your list against Esper Stoneblade I would sideboard:
+2 Surgical +1 Extirpate +2 Duress +3 Tsunami
-2 Go for the Throat -1 Explorer -2 Cabal Therapy -3 Liliana

I think it's fine to cut a few explorers/therapies because of their basic lands which can be dangerous...(early Jace!).Deed still seems good, a bit later in the game when you face Spirit Tokens & also get rid of SFM+Equip. point removal & Liliana are very underwhelming...

[Qweerios]

After having played the Tower/Stronghold/Witness combo on several ocasions and after realizing how worthwhile Treetops made a two-colored list become, Primeval Titan is a card I am strongly contemplating. Furthermore, having access to a tutorable Titan raises more questioning. Do we still need Grave Titans? Is Primeval Titan good enough?
I wholeheartedless disagree with the idea of having 3 Titans in a legacy deck no matter how much reliable ramp it features. I advocate more Primal Hunter and less Titans.

Another point I'd like to bring up is: what has Kitchen Finks ever done for you as a maindeck card, and what is it best at?

[Alexeezay]

I agree with Garruk, Primal Hunter, more than 2 Titans suck because you don't really want a Titan in your opening hand.
I cut Kitchen Finks out of my maindeck because it seemed only good against Burn. In a red build Huntmaster is also clearly better

[TheArchitect]

@TheArchitect:
I think 2 Massacre SB are enough so you could play 4 Duress :)

With your list against Esper Stoneblade I would sideboard:
+2 Surgical +1 Extirpate +2 Duress +3 Tsunami
-2 Go for the Throat -1 Explorer -2 Cabal Therapy -3 Liliana

I think it's fine to cut a few explorers/therapies because of their basic lands which can be dangerous...(early Jace!).Deed still seems good, a bit later in the game when you face Spirit Tokens & also get rid of SFM+Equip. point removal & Liliana are very underwhelming...
I think that is a good choice. I usually dont like explorering against U/W/x just so that they can drop a turn 2 jace/elspeth and they turn one brainstorm in response to half your therapies anyways. I had been siding out hymns in this MU cause they almost always get spell snared, but when I play them right (and not walk into spell snares) they are very devastating.



After having played the Tower/Stronghold/Witness combo on several ocasions and after realizing how worthwhile Treetops made a two-colored list become, Primeval Titan is a card I am strongly contemplating. Furthermore, having access to a tutorable Titan raises more questioning. Do we still need Grave Titans? Is Primeval Titan good enough?
I wholeheartedless disagree with the idea of having 3 Titans in a legacy deck no matter how much reliable ramp it features. I advocate more Primal Hunter and less Titans.
The issue with Prime titan, is that he's really only useful once. Once he gets treetops and/or tower+stronghold into play hes just a 6/6 with trample that thins your deck. I think one Prime titan and one other big finisher like grave titan would be best.

However, maybe we only need him to be useful once. That should be enough right? I think I will try running no grave titans and see how it goes.



I agree with Garruk, Primal Hunter, more than 2 Titans suck because you don't really want a Titan in your opening hand.
Yeah I do not know why I have 2 grave titans, prime titan AND 2 garruks?...
I'll cut a grave titan for more spot removal or maybe something like skeletal scrying or phrexian arena. I will have to see.

As far as finks goes, when I had him MD (a while ago) he was basically just a really inefficient beater that didnt die if he got chumped. I like him much better in the side. Really all he does is buy you time against burn, gaining you life and blocking their dudes. With volraths stronghold+tower/therapys burn will never catch up with you. As much as many dont want to admit it, burn is a legit deck and it is a deck that nic fit has a hard time with.


PS: Random thought I had while typing "tower+stronghold"... As far as deck names more palatable than nic fit *cringes*, why not call this deck The Two Towers? Phyrexian tower is a card that is pretty unique to this deck as far as legacy goes and the interaction with volraths stronghold is what gives this deck a lot of late game power. Just a thought.

[RKPW]

Here's the list I've been running

3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

I really like my testing with this list. Persecutor is nuts, and there are so many ways to get rid of him. Innocent blood, phyrexian tower, we can easily blow deed for four, pulse our dude, flashback extra cabal therepies even liliana. Most busted play yet has been a turn two persecutor via Tower and Explorer.

I've been thinking of changing the singleton Thoughtseize into a Lord Of Extinction for another mid/lategame GSZ-able target. Giving you flex at 4, 5, and 6 for big end game GSZ target. Only problem is there's no real evasion, just a big dumb beater/lightning rod. Seems good with all the KoTR decks, and if he eats a STP, usually you'll gain a decent amount of life.

Haven't really worked the sideboard much, just testing a maindeck.

[Kich867]

Here's the list I've been running

3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

I really like my testing with this list. Persecutor is nuts, and there are so many ways to get rid of him. Innocent blood, phyrexian tower, we can easily blow deed for four, pulse our dude, flashback extra cabal therepies even liliana. Most busted play yet has been a turn two persecutor via Tower and Explorer.

I've been thinking of changing the singleton Thoughtseize into a Lord Of Extinction for another mid/lategame GSZ-able target. Giving you flex at 4, 5, and 6 for big end game GSZ target. Only problem is there's no real evasion, just a big dumb beater/lightning rod. Seems good with all the KoTR decks, and if he eats a STP, usually you'll gain a decent amount of life.

Haven't really worked the sideboard much, just testing a maindeck.

I really love the look of this list. Though I have to agree with some others points of view. I feel that every creature should be able to be tutored by GSZ, and while Persecutor is like, straight up one of my favorite creatures ever printed and is absolutely crazy strong, I don't like that you can't tutor him and I don't like that he's just a beater--the deck has enough of them. I think I would rather run 2x Huntsman's and 1x Wickerbough Elder, swap Grave Titan's to Primeval Titan's, and run a stronghold.

Grave Titan for Primeval Titan is definitely a toss-up though. Grave Titan has an exception in that he floods the field with tokens and the death touch can be removal against opponent's very large creatures. On the flip side, Primeval Titan coming down and grabbing a Volrath's Stronghold is certainly nothing to mess with, having a ton of mana gives you flexibility to do whatever you want.

How does Liliana actually perform in this deck? She doesn't really sound that amazing relative to Garruk Relentless or Big Garruk.

[TheArchitect]

How does Liliana actually perform in this deck? She doesn't really sound that amazing relative to Garruk Relentless or Big Garruk.

Liliana is amazing. You have to keep in mind she only costs 3, but that like any PW she always nets you card advantage if she resolves.

Worst case scenario: You play her, and they have at least one creature that you cannot block so you have to use her -2 and then pass. They have to swing at her or lightning bolt her or you will just start pumping her up. So worse case, she was a cruel edict and a healing salve.

When she really shines, is when you're in a decent board position so you can play her without her dying in a turn. Like if you play her right after a deed, or if your opponent doesn't have a threat on the board (or you can block their creatures). With therapy and the recursion we don't really mind discarding a card. But when your in a decent board position, she puts your opponent in topdeck mode and keeps them in topdeck mode until you win, or until they draw something that can deal with PW (which few decks have). If they play a creature, they sac it. If they keep a card in their hand, they discard it. You never really need to do her -6.

She is even better with sun titans too.

[dscherli]

I've been thinking of dropping Finks as well. As someone said its usually just an inefficient beater, and more often than not just gets plowed, not even persisting. Basically everything Finks does (gain life and beat or block), Scavenging Ooze does better, and with even more upside.

I'll try Kodama of the North Tree over Hermit. I tried Spiritmonger in the slot once, wasn't impressed and quickly went back to the squirrel man. A beefy shrouded trampler seems like something this deck could really use. A big draw off of Garruk is nice too, after some games yesterday I've switched from Relentless to PH.

Dropping Grave Titan i'm on te fence about. I've always loathed that it's not Zenithable, but nothing puts the amount of power in the board for the amount of mana that Grave Totan does. I like the Primeval Titan for Villages idea as well, and the inclusion of Volrath's Stronghold, so long as the deck still has enough basics, which is something that worries me. Also if dropping Grave Titans you'd definitely want to keep a Hermit in imo just for a dude with that crazy power:cost ratio. Dropping him on an empty board and a hellbent opponent certainly does win games.

Re: dropping Arbor. Don't do it! I also don't always want to zenith for arbor t1, often only if I can t2 a Liliana. But as a surprise blocker/pinch beater/fetchable Therapy fodder Arbor is awesome.

Also @ TheArchitect. I'm never this blunt, but 1 ooze is just wrong. Ooze wins me more games than Grave Titan.

[hyperchord24]

If you like Kodama, Gigapede might be worth a shot. 1 toughness is a bit of liability, but recursion is nice.

[Qweerios]

I used to play Gigapede before Kodama but it's really different. I would take Kodama over Thrun any day as well, trample makes all the difference. Simply put, what do you use shrouded beaters for? What role is your Deranged Hermit usually filling? For me, it has been to punch through Jace and Elspeth in about 90% of cases. I don't want shroud or hexproof on my beater against any Aggro or Combo decks, I want it against dedicated Control decks using Jace, Elspeth, Tezzeret, Thopter Foundry, and Snapcasters. Not only Gigapede dies to everything thrown at it, but he also doesn't apply pressure to any of those.

I have done a bit of testing with a single Primeval Titan and no Grave Titan and I think I won't be turning back. Landing a Titan should spell "game over" for your opponent. The fact that Grave Titan piles up the tokens after multiple assaults is highly situational. I admit that Grave Titan will change a board in your favor more convincingly than a Primeval Titan would, but then again, Deed does that even better.

[Kich867]

I used to play Gigapede before Kodama but it's really different. I would take Kodama over Thrun any day as well, trample makes all the difference. Simply put, what do you use shrouded beaters for? What role is your Deranged Hermit usually filling? For me, it has been to punch through Jace and Elspeth in about 90% of cases. I don't want shroud or hexproof on my beater against any Aggro or Combo decks, I want it against dedicated Control decks using Jace, Elspeth, Tezzeret, Thopter Foundry, and Snapcasters. Not only Gigapede dies to everything thrown at it, but he also doesn't apply pressure to any of those.

I have done a bit of testing with a single Primeval Titan and no Grave Titan and I think I won't be turning back. Landing a Titan should spell "game over" for your opponent. The fact that Grave Titan piles up the tokens after multiple assaults is highly situational. I admit that Grave Titan will change a board in your favor more convincingly than a Primeval Titan would, but then again, Deed does that even better.

Would you run a single Primeval Titan over Grave Titan in a GBr list? Furthermore, would you change your position on straight GB being better than splashing a third color in the advent of punishing fires?

Red offering both punishing fires, Huntsman, and Broodmate Dragon, as well as the sideboard options of Pyrostatic Pillar, Pyroblast, and artifact hate, it seems that the red splash helps deal with the issues you were having with GB, IE: planeswalkers in general. Punishing Fires take them out or keep them at bay, Broodmate dragon is quite a sick beater and given that it has flying I'm fairly tempted to put it over Grave Titan as a win-con under the premise that A: it flies, B: it's a 50/50 split, pathing a grave titan leaves you with 2 2/2 generic tokens, pathing a broodmate dragon leaves you with a 4/4 flier, C: it's zenithable which is huge.

[RKPW]

I really love the look of this list. Though I have to agree with some others points of view. I feel that every creature should be able to be tutored by GSZ, and while Persecutor is like, straight up one of my favorite creatures ever printed and is absolutely crazy strong, I don't like that you can't tutor him and I don't like that he's just a beater--the deck has enough of them. I think I would rather run 2x Huntsman's and 1x Wickerbough Elder, swap Grave Titan's to Primeval Titan's, and run a stronghold.

Grave Titan for Primeval Titan is definitely a toss-up though. Grave Titan has an exception in that he floods the field with tokens and the death touch can be removal against opponent's very large creatures. On the flip side, Primeval Titan coming down and grabbing a Volrath's Stronghold is certainly nothing to mess with, having a ton of mana gives you flexibility to do whatever you want.

How does Liliana actually perform in this deck? She doesn't really sound that amazing relative to Garruk Relentless or Big Garruk.

Grave Titan is far better in this deck, especially with Maverick running Maze of Ith and having no real way of dealing with it game one, and such a tight creature base. Grave Titan still nets tokens even if he's mazed. He's just raw swinging power, coming across for 10 (provided you swing with the tokens) Same with Broodmate. Wasteland is not a card I think is good in this deck.

That said, the most popular removal spell in the format right now is Swords to Plowshares. Maverick and Stoneblade (should be) each running a playset. A Grave Titan getting STP'd before swinging nets you six life, and two tokens. Two more threats for them to deal with. Primeval Titan nets you six life as well, but two mediocre lands, and if he was your only threat, no more gas.
Grave Titan > Primeval Titan

Persecutor has won me games solely based on his effect. Facing down an 11/11 ooze, with him not swinging, because if he does, I block with Persecutor and win the game. Buying time to find an outlet to kill him.

Liliana is always good. Discarding cabal therapy, or punishing fire to her is always funny. And maverick really has to answer her right away, or risk their board. Popping her ultimate off is pretty fun too.

Overall I'm really happy with the list. Gonna put some more testing in, and start bangin' out a sideboard.

[waSP]

@RKPW
Grave Titan is not better than Primeval Titan by your description. Assuming they have removal, one nets you two 2/2 vanilla tokens. The other nets you two trampling 3/3 creatures that can't be killed by sorceries (but can be Wastelanded). Alternatively, Primeval gives you flexibility (if you have a yard full of dudes, you can get Volrath's Stronghold).

[TheArchitect]

Both titans have their strengths. Against UWx, prime is way better. He tramples over their 1 toughness blockers and hits walkers. Treetops cant be jaced away. Against Mav, they can just waste, or knight>waste, kill treetops and StpS the titan and if they have a knight, at the point where youd cast prime titan, Kotr is probably bigger than a 6/6. Grave titan, has more value for them. If they stps grave titan, you still have 2 2/2s that cant be wasted. And if they dont stps grave titan it has deathtouch and kill any knight or terravore.

In a bubble, grave titan is better. However, I think overall prime titan is better because you can run just one of them and still have 5 of them in your dec (GSZ). Also getting Phyrexian tower and voraths stronghold lets you recur your entire GY with ewit if the game goes on.

I really wish there was a man land on par with celestial colonnade with GBx :/ the GW BR, and GR one kinda suck. BU is alright but a land thats a serra angel would be nice...

[Arianrhod]

I definitely feel like some retuning to fight Maverick is appropriate and necessary. Due to my decreased green package, I'm experimenting with a pair of Perish in the board, replacing my pair of Leyline of the Voids.

Also, I disagree with boarding out Cabal Therapy in the Stoneblade matchup. Most of the time, they give you a lot of information about what's in their hand, and it's a pretty hefty preemptive answer to their planeswalkers. I do agree that boarding out one or two Explorers is probably a good idea, although you need to be careful of what that does to your curve.

As far as the Titans go, each one seems decent. I don't like Grave Titan personally, but I also run Moat, so he's not that good for me. Neither is Primeval for that matter, but I tend to like Primeval more overall. Having manlands and Volrath's Stronghold is a good thing.

[LazyEyes]

What do you guys think about Liliana Vess over Liliana of the Veil? I understand its an additional 2cc but with mana ramp it shouldn't be a problem. I find myself often not using Liliana unless there is a creature I wanna kill and I often I don't want to discard. However Liliana Vess acts as a more survivable hand disruption and MOST OF ALL her 2nd ability allows you to tutor for ANYTHING. Grave Titan, Pernicious Deed whatever. Her Ult isn't bad either.

[TheArchitect]

I tried cutting thrun and 2 grave titans for 3 percys, and cutting 3 hymns for 3 duress at my LGSs low key FNM legacy event. The meta is only like 50% real legacy decks, but luckily I got only paired against one janky deck so I was able to get some solid games in.

I beat enchantress, B/g Gate, R/B jank, delver zoo. I lost to VV elves (only loss and well deserved; he played perfectly and I derped out hardcore. It was pretty embarrassing.)

Percy was awesome. I cant see myself going back to grave titan. Flying, trample and being a 4 drop are very relevant. Getting rid of him to make it so I can win was never an issue. With duress MD, I was always able to cast him without threat of removal. He only died to removal one game when I used him to bait 2 lightning bolts that, along with an attacking goyf, would have killed me.

Tree top villages I drew into did 15-20 damage in 3 different games. And dropping primetime was as satisfying as always.

There wasnt really anything in the deck I was particularly unhappy with.

One matchup I would like to improve: Death and taxes. My roommate plays a mean D&T and we go to almost all the same events. So with exception of tonight, we almost always end up getting paired against one another. And for the life of me, I cannot beat him. We played like probably 15 games in the past week or so just for fun/testing, and I think I beat him twice. Maybe knowing my 75 is just making it too easy for him to dismantle my deck with hatebears but it is a fairly popular deck in my meta and something I need to be better prepared for.

The issue is that D&T is an attrition deck with a strong game as well. They get all their CA out of making cards in your hand dead because they have thalia+rishadan/wasteland, vial+flickerwisp, Jotun grunt, revoker naming deed/PWs, karakas+mangara/thalia, Swords of X&Y or mom to give problack, creatures with flying, the list could go on. They also get a lot out of getting 2 untapped plains from explores. Grave titans, massacres, pithing needle, I have tried just about everything I could think of and it is still never enough. I know this is a even to bad MU for nic fit, but has anyone had any luck improving that?

[Qweerios]

I fixed my DnT matchup with a pair of Darkblast and a playset of Lilianas. Having 1 less color requirement to meet also helps the stability of the manabase.

If you are concerned about which titan is better against Maze of Ith, the answer is obvious... the one that grabs you a Wasteland is by far the best one.

[Vicar in a tutu]

The issue is that D&T is an attrition deck with a strong game as well. They get all their CA out of making cards in your hand dead because they have thalia+rishadan/wasteland, vial+flickerwisp, Jotun grunt, revoker naming deed/PWs, karakas+mangara/thalia, Swords of X&Y or mom to give problack, creatures with flying, the list could go on. They also get a lot out of getting 2 untapped plains from explores. Grave titans, massacres, pithing needle, I have tried just about everything I could think of and it is still never enough. I know this is a even to bad MU for nic fit, but has anyone had any luck improving that?
Maybe a couple of Virtue's Ruin in the SB could help against DnT?

[TheArchitect]

Maybe a couple of Virtue's Ruin in the SB could help against DnT?

I don't see that being better than massacre. It does hit serra avenger, but misses revoker. Also, with thalia and ports/wastes it will be a LONG time before it can be casted. And even when you do cast it, they can bounce thalia/mangara with karakas. One thing I havent tried against them is dread of night, but again not hitting revoker sucks. Revoker is probably their best dude against us. On the other hand dread of night makes thalia, flickerwisp and managara unplayable even if they do tricks with them.

I tried one dark blast in the MD for a while and didnt really like it. I will give it another chance though. On paper it looks like it totally hoses as long as they dont get sword of L&S or a grunt.

I have 3 lilys and the games I win against D&T are the games where I rape their hand, play lily killing their only dude and then put them in topdeck mode for the rest of the game.

[dscherli]

I haven't played against D&T with this deck but it seems like Pernicious Deed is a big game against them like any other creature deck. Do they really main Revoker? Seems like that's the scariest thing in the matchup, and unless there's a mom to go with it it's very manageable (though blanking GftT is annoying). If you really see a lot of D&T then Darkblast sounds like a good idea. Even with mom out you upkeep Darkblast mom then dredge it and Darkblast Revoker. Darkblast really is solid against a lot of decks in this meta, though we are already strong against many of those decks. Still picking off moms, hierarchy and delvers seems sweet. Might give it a shot Myself.

[Kich867]

After playing a lot of the GBr lists, I've found that Punishing Fires kind of sucks in the deck and it's job can be accomplished through better means. Broodmate Dragon was a pimpin all star every game and I rode that shit to victory a lot, but cards like Punishing Fires and Huntmaster are pretty terrible from my experience.

I tested Liliana Vess--if you can play her she's an all-star. She comes in at 5 and goes to 6, and from then on she's basically just a win-con tutor until you win. I'll take back to back to back titans plz, thanks. I did have troubles getting her out though, sometimes.

I'm of the opinion that a GB version is probably the most optimal. Punishing Fires sucks without Grove of the Burnwillows and you can't always find one, running into a hand of 2x Punishing Fires with no Grove feels terrible, getting that grove Wastelanded even if you do find it feels even worse.

[hyperchord24]

I don't know about Vess. For a 5-mana planeswalker, I'd rather be dropping beasts and drawing cards. Do you/have you run Garruk, Primal Hunter?

[XdeckX]

Last friday I ran a GBr build in our local FNM going 4-0 beating D+T, an artifact pile, Canadian ***** and BUG Tempo. I must admit I got lucky a couple of times (especially against Canadian)

The list I ran was:

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavening Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse

//
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Tree of Redemption
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
2 Innocent Blood
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction

The red splash was fun but I didn't feel like it improved a whole lot (mostly due to the matchups I faced) I didnt really draw into Fire+Grove a whole lot although it did win me the match against BUG Tempo.
The Tree of Redemption was a last minute addition replacing a Maelstrom Pulse because I feared Burn and Combo which have been showing up lately. The Tree didn't really do much. The games where I resolved it were already over.
I don't think I would run it again. I would love to try some Trinispheres in the board at some point but I'm yet unsure what to cut (as I would like to run 3)

I'm not sure if I would run the red splash next time eventhough it has value. I played a GB build a couple of weeks ealier with the same result (going 4-0) and that felt way more solid with more threats.
The Huntmasters were fun when I played them but only lived to flip one game (and by then it was irrelevant) The best thing about the Huntmaster was the lifegain and the additional blocker/attacker. Maybe it's just an excellent lightning rod/healing salve :)

D+T does seem like a bad matchup. The D+T pilot was still new to the deck and that cost her the match. I never felt in control against it and just managed to win on the back of Grave Titan after stripping a couple of StP.
I resolved a hardcast Therapy on StP with an Explorer on the board to find out she was holding 2. Afterwards I told her that she should have plowed the Explorer in responce.
Deed does feel like it's golden against D+T but a descent player will drop a Revoker on Deed as soon as they get a chance and protect it with Mother of Runes.

I still feel that allot of people have no idea how to play against this deck and that's a big reason why I've been doing so well.

And big Liliana does feel like overkill. Once you have enough mana to resolve Liliana you should have enough mana to resolve almost any threat we have. I would rather drop a big beater and have fun with their lifetotal instead.

[muscleb]

While I also think that straight GB is best, I will try out the red splash(without punishing grove) some time in the near future. The huntmaster looks like he has to potential and and I want to see him in action, and I love just playing one Broodmate instead of 2 titan, becuase you can zenith it.
The best thing about red splash is access to REB in board to fight jace.

It seems that either Infest or Massacre is a good fit right now, since Infest also takes out delvers, perhaps even main. At least in my meta, since there are some bant decks with hexproof guys that all have 2 toughness(troll, geist), Death & Taxes, the usual Maverick and various aggro decks.

I just need to find a good gameplan against slow blue decks with jace.

[Star|Scream]

Hey,

I'm thinking of taking up this deck.

Had a question about the manabase

If I want to run 1 or 2 broodmate main, some blasts in the sideboard, maybe a couple other cards, what would a good manabase be?

Like
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

I don't have onslaught fetches so I'd like to do this on the cheap. Do the tertiary fetches have to be bloodstains or foothills?

[Qweerios]

It is fairly important if you play 3 colors that your fetches 5-8 hit your splash color. And since your main color should be green (mainly for arbor), Windswept or Wooded are pretty important.

[eq.firemind]

Does anyone tested Burning Wish in :r:-splashed version? I did some very limited testing earlier, the main problem was lack of tutorable finisher, but I completely missed that Burning Wish can grab Green Sun's Zenith.
Massacre, Tsunami, Perish, Firespout and other goodies look very nice against current metagame.

Also, red allows us to run a nice zenithable finishers: Broodmate Dragon (more or less equal to Grave Titan) and Primeval Titan => Treetop Village + Kessing Wolf Run.

What do you think?

[Star|Scream]

Does anyone tested Burning Wish in :r:-splashed version? I did some very limited testing earlier, the main problem was lack of tutorable finisher, but I completely missed that Burning Wish can grab Green Sun's Zenith.
Massacre, Tsunami, Perish, Firespout and other goodies look very nice against current metagame.

Also, red allows us to run a nice zenithable finishers: Broodmate Dragon (more or less equal to Grave Titan) and Primeval Titan => Treetop Village + Kessing Wolf Run.

What do you think?

Can we see your list?

[Kich867]

Does anyone tested Burning Wish in :r:-splashed version? I did some very limited testing earlier, the main problem was lack of tutorable finisher, but I completely missed that Burning Wish can grab Green Sun's Zenith.
Massacre, Tsunami, Perish, Firespout and other goodies look very nice against current metagame.

Also, red allows us to run a nice zenithable finishers: Broodmate Dragon (more or less equal to Grave Titan) and Primeval Titan => Treetop Village + Kessing Wolf Run.

What do you think?

Burning Wish certainly gives us some interesting ways to interact with the opponent. I'm also a fan of the red splash, Broodmate Dragon is an absolute champ, though punishing fires feels less than stellar when you already have so much kill.

[eq.firemind]

Burning Wish => Zenith dinged my head when I was at work, so there's no actual testing behind this raw list:

3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of Burnwillows
1 Treetop Village
1 Kessing Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Burning Wish
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Perish
1 Massacre
1 Firespout
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Shattering Spree
1 Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict
4 Duress
4 Tormod's Crypt

In theory, increased land count should compensate greedy color requirements

[Koby]

I still have to ask - why Perish over Virtue's Ruin if the intent is to destroy Maverick?

[eq.firemind]

Perish is here to hit ocasional NO bant, NO RUG and elves.
Massacre and boatload of removal should already slaughter Maverick.
Actualy, I'm not very sure about Firespout. Today's creatures are mostly X/1, X/2 or huge/huge...

[Koby]

Perish is here to hit ocasional NO bant, NO RUG and elves.
Massacre and boatload of removal should already slaughter Maverick.
Actualy, I'm not very sure about Firespout. Today's creatures are mostly X/1, X/2 or huge/huge...

Hate to nitpick, but Virtue's Ruin is just as effective against Progenitus. Are Tarmogoyfs really that big of a concern that Perish is warranted? I could understand from the RUG Tempo, but from a NO deck? And if the concern is toughness <2, then what about Pyroclasm?

[Richard Cheese]

Virtue's Ruin is generally going to be strictly better against Maverick. It hits Thalia and Aven Mindcensor, both of which can be a pain in the ass if they come down early. It's basically a cheaper, one-sided Deed against that deck.

[eq.firemind]

The question is why would you want another card dedicated to beat Maverick?
Perish hits manadorks and ooze, still hits KotR and Teeg, and also deals with less common stuff like Scryb Ranger and Terravore. And it also helps against decks that still run Tarmogoyf.
3 Deed, 4 PFire (with possible recursion), 2 Liliana, 3 Pulse and 3 BWish => Massacre should keep creatures at bay and 7 cheap discard spells help to kick something dangerous before it lands.
Also, have you ever saw Thrun flying right into your face inspired by Elspeth's mighty kick?

We're not Maverick's natural prey, so I don't think there's need to load wishboard with dedicated hate to it.

As for Firespout spot, the question is do we need another sweeper? Between Massacre, Perish and cards in my hand, I usually have more effective ways to spend my mana than Wish for Firespout. Only if Lord of Atlantis will return his fellow fishman back into metagame... So I'll try something different in this spot, probably some weird sacrifical outlet for Explorer. Like Tendrils of Despair or Bone Splinters.

[hyperchord24]

I thought bone splinters sounded familiar. Most lists include innocent blood. And it doesn't target.

[XdeckX]

I'd run Vitrue's Ruin over Perish. We have enough ways to deal with a vanilla beater like Goyf. All the more troublesome cards run by Maverick are, in my opinion, white (Teeg, Thalia, Mother, Knight) and it hoses another bad matchup: D+T
It also takes care of the Progenitus.
I would hate to have to destroy my own dudes to take care of my opponents beaters. And since most creatures we run are green Perish is out if you ask me.

[Star|Scream]

Burning Wish => Zenith dinged my head when I was at work, so there's no actual testing behind this raw list:

3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of Burnwillows
1 Treetop Village
1 Kessing Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Burning Wish
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Perish
1 Massacre
1 Firespout
1 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Shattering Spree
1 Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict
4 Duress
4 Tormod's Crypt

In theory, increased land count should compensate greedy color requirements

I tried this on MWS. It seemed to be all over the place, but that could be my inexperience with the deck. It just didn't feel coherent. I never had fire/groves together, and I missed Thrun. p.s. I love Thrun against Ur Delver!

[Justin]

I don't know about Vess. For a 5-mana planeswalker, I'd rather be dropping beasts and drawing cards. Do you/have you run Garruk, Primal Hunter?

I drew 24 cards off Garruk recently from a 24/24 Scavenging Ooze to break a stalemated game wide open.

[kwelts]

how is this deck in the DTB section? I havent seen any deck like this top-8 at a SCG open. can someone point me to tourney winning decklists recently?

[Tao]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Nic%20Fit&format=Legacy

[Star|Scream]

how is this deck in the DTB section? I havent seen any deck like this top-8 at a SCG open. can someone point me to tourney winning decklists recently?

Apparently it's big in Europe.

[DrHealex]

Apparently it's big in Europe.
So is David Hasselhoff... Clearly americans are just behind.

[Star|Scream]

So is David Hasselhoff... Clearly americans are just behind.

so much win!

[TheArchitect]

how is this deck in the DTB section? I havent seen any deck like this top-8 at a SCG open. can someone point me to tourney winning decklists recently?

It has very favorable matchups with Mav, and slightly favorable with UWx Jaceblade, and RUG thresh. Lately the SSG top 16s have been almost entirely made up of those 3 decks. I don't know why no one plays it at SSG circuits.

[CorpT]

It has very favorable matchups with Mav, and slightly favorable with UWx Jaceblade, and RUG thresh. Lately the SSG top 16s have been almost entirely made up of those 3 decks. I don't know why no one plays it at SSG circuits.

Because it folds to Combo and Burn. And I mean folds.

[Arianrhod]

It depends on how you build it. The white versions are pretty good against burn, actually. My version is a little less good against maverick, but its blue matchups are ridiculously good. I might make my list just a dog to combo and focus on beating maverick a bit more.

[Star|Scream]

It depends on how you build it. The white versions are pretty good against burn, actually. My version is a little less good against maverick, but its blue matchups are ridiculously good. I might make my list just a dog to combo and focus on beating maverick a bit more.

What are some proven ways to deal with combo, including SNT?

In theory there's:

Teeg
Massive hand disruption
Tree of Redemption
Pulse/Deed for tokens



For Burn

Tree of Redemption
Kitchen FInks


This is just in my head since I'm new to the deck. What have others tried?

[TheArchitect]

It depends on how you build it. The white versions are pretty good against burn, actually. My version is a little less good against maverick, but its blue matchups are ridiculously good. I might make my list just a dog to combo and focus on beating maverick a bit more.

Thats basically what I have done with my GB list. If their playing tes/ant/solidarity, I just hope they get a slow a hand and my discard and is enough. I don't try to make that matchup more favorable. Luckily for nic fit, ANT and TES are seeing less and less play now that thalia makes decks that just turn dudes sideways an even matchup.

Burn isn't too bad. They are only slightly favored I would say.

Show and tell is a tough one though. Discard for Hivemind, and lily for Emr/Prog is all we have against them.

However, nic fit players have to try to pretty hard to lose to dredge. MD ooze, 3 pulse and 3 deeds with more hate in the SB makes it really tough. Reanimator is a bit tougher, but over all still probably even to favorable for us.

Nic fit also beats just about any deck that plans to win with a bunch of permanents (enchantress, elves, affinity, MUD, chalice aggro, zoo, etc).

@Starscream:
For burn, hymns are brutal. Also, finks and tree will usually win the game for you if you can slow them down with some discard first.

For combo, you covered what I use. I would say don't try to hard to beat combo. You will still beat them sometimes, but this decks strength is in the fact that poops on the other half of the meta with Deed, walkers and 6 drops. However, for the white lists there are some much better anti combo options that can be fetched with Rector. They still wont come out till turn 3-5 usually. If you get the nuts you can sac a rector by turn 2, but that doesnt happen too often.

[Arianrhod]

I play the white Rector version, so my options are a little better, with things like Leyline of Sanctity, Curse of Exhaustion, and so on. I usually use Chains of Mephistopheles when High Tide is popular. I also use Surgical Extractions to injure combo decks by taking mana or cantrips -- High Tide in particular gets very irritated when they start losing Merchant Scrolls, Brainstorms, etc. Against TES/ANT, hitting their LEDs is brutal. I couple that with a Cranial Extraction and a Memoricide to strip away their bigger threats, like Time Spiral/Cunning Wish, Burning Wish, Inferal Tutor, etc. I did get an immediate scoop once from ANT when I Cranial'd naming Tendrils of Agony, because he had no backup storm wincon. Good times. As far as burn is concerned, Baneslayer Angel says hi to them, alongside the aforementioned Leyline; sometimes also CoP:Red when I feel like it. Note that my list is very synergistic with itself -- I wouldn't run Baneslayer in this archetype without also running Moat, which means Rector. Together they all make sense, though.

SnT is really horrible for us in general, and there's nothing to do about that really. As The Architect mentioned, Dredge is really easy for us. Reanimator depends entirely on what your list looks like.

[Star|Scream]

Having a difficult time deciding where I want to go with this deck. I own 3 bayou.

I have to put in money or trade fodder for the fetchlands and either the 4th bayou or 3rd color duals

I already have a Savannah.


Should I just get the 4th Bayou and go straight GB or get a taiga and badlands for red, or a scrubland for white?

I like broodmate dragon, and kessig wolf run is insane on a thrun, but I didn't like punishing/groves. I could do a light splash with red. But I really want access to teeg.

Can I SB gaddock teeg even if I don't splash white (GSZ)?

[conboy31]

You could probably get away with a list like Caleb's only having 3 bayou's (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-logic-behind-jank-countertop/).

Also, Teeg as been splashed via GSZ without white. It is an occasional option.

[TheArchitect]

@Starscream:

I only run 3 bayous in GB, I didn't like the 4th. I run a lot of utility lands and when I only had 5 basics I was always wishing one bayou was a basic. Since I made the change (a while back) I have never regretted it. You can often keep 1-2 land hand with the deck because of therapy/explorer, but you will lose a crap ton of tempo if you give your opponent two lands and then they waste you so you're stuck at 3 mana while they have 4+. This deck really needs to hit 6 mana to start doing crazy things and getting stuck cause of wastes sucks late game too. Also sacing explorer when you have all 4-5 of your basics out/discarded is awkward.

As for Teeg, this is something I am actually going to test out the next time I get a chance. Ive seen a lot of lists with no white source and a SB teeg, however.


GBw lists like Arianrhod's, are best (relative to other nic fit lists) against combo. And it has a much better silver bullet package against a wide range of decks: you get enchantments AND creatures.

GB is really solid against Mav and RUG. It also has the best manabase being 2 color so decks that mess with your mana base are easier (moon effect, RUG tempo, anything with waste/ports, etc).

GBr, I haven't tested with much at all, so correct me if I am wrong, but they focus on improving their UWx MU and overall the red splash plays out a bit more aggressively. It is also monetarily cheaper to splash: red lands and huntsmaster vs white lands, moat and chains.

[Star|Scream]

@Starscream:

I only run 3 bayous in GB, I didn't like the 4th. I run a lot of utility lands and when I only had 5 basics I was always wishing one bayou was a basic. Since I made the change (a while back) I have never regretted it. You can often keep 1-2 land hand with the deck because of therapy/explorer, but you will lose a crap ton of tempo if you give your opponent two lands and then they waste you so you're stuck at 3 mana while they have 4+. This deck really needs to hit 6 mana to start doing crazy things and getting stuck cause of wastes sucks late game too. Also sacing explorer when you have all 4-5 of your basics out/discarded is awkward.

As for Teeg, this is something I am actually going to test out the next time I get a chance. Ive seen a lot of lists with no white source and a SB teeg, however.


GBw lists like Arianrhod's, are best (relative to other nic fit lists) against combo. And it has a much better silver bullet package against a wide range of decks: you get enchantments AND creatures.

GB is really solid against Mav and RUG. It also has the best manabase being 2 color so decks that mess with your mana base are easier (moon effect, RUG tempo, anything with waste/ports, etc).

GBr, I haven't tested with much at all, so correct me if I am wrong, but they focus on improving their UWx MU and overall the red splash plays out a bit more aggressively. It is also monetarily cheaper to splash: red lands and huntsmaster vs white lands, moat and chains.

Thanks for the detailed response! I'm not going to invest in a Moat or Chains so I think GB or GBr may be best. I saw a list that just had one Savannah just in case it needed to hardcast Teeg.

[Gheizen64]

This is the list i've been playing for a while now:

Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Broodmate Dragon
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Spells:
4 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Innocent Blood
3 Living Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Lands:
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Treetop Village
SB: 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Broodmate Dragon
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze

First of all, this deck has a fairly good matchup against RUG. Feel favorable against UW blade variants and Maverick, it's about even against burn and feel bad against everything combo storm (SnT combo and reanimator aren't that bad thanks to many edict effects).

Some cards explanation.
Innocent blood: you may have noticed already, but all of the creatures of the deck interact nicely with this. Explorer is obvious, while huntmaster and Broodmate create a token as they spawn so they're "protected". Treetop is also immune to Innocent obviously.

GSZ and Wish split: i wanted to streamline the deck as much as possible, and as such, i removed the toolbox with GSZ and added 3 Wish that help us get answers for some matchup, help the Punishing fires combo without cluttering the main. Why still GSZ? Because you really need that early veteran explorer. Running more Huntmaster and Broodmate can kill you early on if you don't hit that explorer. Those 2 GSZ are a T2 explorer or a midgame Huntmaster or a lategame Dragon. Note also that Wish make me able to run 3 Grove instead of 4, meaning i run 1 more basic land. This list is EXTREMELY tight.

Removal suite: i've already talked about this, but punishing fires is amazing with Huntmaster, giving you a lot of control on the flip. Not only that, but punishing fires work amazingly with liliana, and you know what? It works also amazingly with Innocent blood, which in turn work ok with Huntmaster. Add to that pernicious deed and liliana, and you'll see why most creature have an hard time against you. The beautiful thing here is that all of this removal has a double function: innocent blood work as a sac outlet for Veteran, Punishing fires work as reach and as planeswalker removal, Pernicious is artifact/enchantment removal and Liliana put people in topdeck mode quickly.

Inquisition over Thoughtseize: this is a control deck. It often win heavy attrition wars, with Huntmaster gaining you life and flipping over and over. 2 life means a lot, while getting a 3+ cmc card often isn't as important. Thoughtseize in the board is against combo and slower control. If you have 0 burn and UR delver in your meta, thoughtseize is the better choice obviously.

[kwelts]

most of those descent finishes by nic fit have been in tourneys with small turnouts. i dont think this deck is a DTB, but thats only my opinion.

[CalebD]

Because it folds to Combo and Burn. And I mean folds.

False. The burn matchup is decent, but very tricky. Hit with Therapy, tutor up Finks, protect the ooze (and get creative about getting creatures in the yard to feed the ooze, too)

[Qweerios]

I play straight GB and my burn matchup is fairly decent. I pack a Finks and an Obstinate Baloth in the SB for that matchup and I have an Ooze MD. There is, however, a small window between my 3rd and 5th lands (depending on how Explorer triggers) where a burn player can burst me out of the game (usually with 1-2 Fireblast).

Combo matchups aren't that bad either. In fact, playing against combo is something I really enjoy with this deck. I can usually land between 1-5 Duress effects within my first 3 turns of the game postboard. Landing a Lily after that and saving an extraction usually locks the combo player out of the game. Now that I think about it, I don't ever recall landing Teeg against combo since I started playing Nic Fit, and I have played against a lot of combo...

[dscherli]

I've never had a problem with burn with this deck. Lots of people play it in my area so I was running a pair of Zuran Orbs in my board for a while but I found them unnecessary. Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Ooze and Finks are all awesome against burn. Just mulligan properly and play tight. I'll admit that combo is another story, though, but that's why most boards are like 90% combo hate. Sneak and Show is probably the worst, though, and Hive Mind is a pain. I actually won 2-0 against a good High Tide player the other day, though! Hymns and Therapies just got there.

[Kich867]

I'm currently playing this list:


//Creatures: 13
4x Veteren Explorer
2x Broodmate Dragon
2x Abyssal Persecuter
1x Grave Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Huntmaster of the Falls
1x Eternal Witness

//Spells: 19
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Innocent Blood
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lightning Bolt

//Planeswalkers: 2
2x Liliana of the Veil

//Artifacts: 3
3x Sensei's Divining top

//Lands: 21
7x Fetches
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor

So far, Wickerbough Elder has been a champ, huntsmaster sucks (I honestly can't..seem to find a use for him. He's very small, his tokens aren't the most useful, it's hard to flip him in legacy, I'd rather have Kitchen Finks, they serve the same purpose but he's cheaper.

I tried punishing fires and wasn't super thrilled with it, however I really enjoyed Broodmate Dragon as a finisher, but I'm questioning whether this is the most optimal build.

I'm surprised I didn't see more talk about this list:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, The Last Troll

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Diabolic Edict
4 Fact or Fiction

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

SB:

3 Tsunami (High Tide, StoneBlade, Canadian Thresh)
2 Dark Blast (Maverick)
1 Cranial Extraction (Combo)
1 Loaming Shaman//Gaddock Teeg (Combo, Dredge)
4 Duress (Combo)
4 Leyline of the Void (Dredge, Combo)

By D. Watta.

Fact or Fiction seems like an absolutely -face stompingly good- card for this deck. The only part of this list that concerns me is the lack of a Primeval Titan, Grave Titan, and/or Abyssal Persecuters (I would personally run 1/1/2 respectively).

I would run pretty much that list straight up, but -2 finks, -2 witness, -1 wall, -1 zealot, for the above mentioned 1/1/2 split and 2x liliana of the veil.

One of the things I felt with the deck was hitting top-deck mode, the red splash doesn't feel like it actually...addresses anything that GB by themselves can't address, fact or fiction is one of the most powerful blue cards ever printed, both for sheer number of cards drawn but the sheer card quality you get out of those cards as well. Furthermore, the inclusion of FoF is justification for removing SDT, which is a card that I don't feel is particularly amazing in the deck, but not the worst.

Realistically speaking, few people actually know how to handle FOF, people are -awful- at splitting piles and rarely make good decisions, in the words of a friend of mine--a long standing MUC player--"I've never cast fact or fiction and not gotten everything I wanted out of the pile."

In a deck like Nic Fit, where we have Eternal Witnesses to bring cards back, Volrath's Stronghold to bring creatures back, and Recurring Nightmare to cycle creatures out of our graveyard, Fact or Fiction is a virtual instant speed draw 5 card. The cards in the yard are useful to us, the cards in our hand are useful to us, we only need to determine which is more useful where. Liliana of the Veil continues this trend, allowing us to pitch our bombs to the yard and recurring nightmare them out.

[moseby]

For those versions splashing white the new angel Sigarda seems really dam good;
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129805&d=1333846293

[TheArchitect]

I was thinking the same thing. She is exactly what we need a creature: evasion (flying), GSZ target, 5/5 and immune to almost all forms of removal.

I might have to start splashing white.

[hyperchord24]

Yeah, I didn't know if I should mention anything because I didn't know if a lot of people splashed white. It's definetly an upgrade over baneslayer simply because it has shroud and is GSZ-able, but I don't know if it takes her spot. White lists with rector seem very tight.

[Philipp2293]

This might be the reason for me, along with Elspeth, to reconsider a white splash.

[novatinhu]

My new list after AVR release:


// Lands
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless or Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad


White or NO white splash?

[hyperchord24]

I think GSZ-ing into this new angel is just about the strongest move this deck can make with large amounts of mana available. It seems to me that all the rector tricks pale in comparison to putting this angel in play(assuming a white splash).

[Qweerios]

...Kodama has been surpassed

Another good reason to splash white.

[eq.firemind]

I finaly was able to test Abyssal Persecutors and it was impressive. Flying creatures gave me troubles, but the demon solved it all at once (Good luck hiding behind Lingering Souls).

After that I started to search for some way to reliably get rid of it since loosing to horde of zombies or huge Tendrils while trying to kill your own creature was frustrating. Then I found a card that was discussed at early pages of this thread: Diabolic Intent. Since I was not completely satisfied with both Green Sun's Zenith and Living Wish due to tutor restrictions, Intent took 2 slots in my BG list adn GSZ was out.

Then I noticed that after turn 1 Explorer, turn 2 Intent I often wanted something to put immidiate pressure on opponent's life total. The thing is that opponent usualy knows what deck is he playing against, so he can easily adjust his role. That pressure can mess his initial evaluation and force him to play unoptimal.
To make story short short, I was in need for 2-mana beater.

The obvious choice is Tarmogoyf, but this deck can't afford to have just dumb big beater since it is too easy to answer. Then I remembered a card that glanced somewhere in this thread, but was dismissed without actual testing.
The card is Strangleroot Geist and it was bingo for me.

So, whad does Geist do in this deck?
1) It comes down at turn 2, which fits curve perfectly.
2) It chumpblocks 2 times.
3) It immideately swings for 2 and due to deck's nature it usually swings for 3 on turn 3. 5 potential damage on turn 3 is pretty nice for 2 mana investment and unexpected from this deck.
4) It survives Deed and strikes right into opponent's sweeped board.
5) It enables lots of cards with sacrifice costs and becomes stronger in process.
The only real trouble was double green cost, but I saw IBA's list with Twilight Mires and it was it.
So with Geists and without GSZ my curve becomes smoother (yeah, one more thing I don't like about Zenith - it screws your curve if you don't have fast Explorer start), so I cut some expensive finishers and a land to include more options for Diabolic Intent and upped its count to 3 (so now I have no trouble to kill Persecutor in due time).
Then I made some tweaks here and there and there's the result:

Lands:
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creature that can (and usualy should) be sacrificed:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Deranged Hermit - This could be Grave Titan or anohter token generator, but I like to keep the top of curve at 5 mana
1 Batterskull
Other creatures:
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Hand control
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cabal Therapy
Removal:
2 Innocent Blood
1 Tragic Slip - Nice with Intent and still kills relevant 1-drops.
2 Shriekmaw - Removal spell that dodges both Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, can wipe board with Nightmare and just plain beats (planeswalker's) face due to evasion. Can't hit Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Revoker (on Deed), but Tragic Slip covers that.
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
Stuff
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed

Sideboard
1 Choke
1 Tsunami
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Despair - Replacement for Innocent Blood versus control and combo
1 Memoricide
2 Darkblast

This list can play more aggressive early game with Geist and Persecutors (4 mana is not late game for this deck) and due to lack of restrictions on Diabolic Intent's target you can set up right engine or grab sideboard card. Give it a spin, it feels a little different compared to regular Nic Fit.

Oh, and that Sigarda looks unkillable.

[Tao]

Sigarda seems solid indeed. Like Thrun but the Evasion make her better at killing Planeswalkers and she blocks Delver. 5 Mana instead of 6 for a Dragon is nice.

But as long as opponents can use the new Time Walk thing I can't see Nic Fit being a viable choice -_- Not tested but I don't see how the matchup against Jace, Time Walk, Time Walk is winnable.

[Arianrhod]

I don't see Mastery seeing much play, honestly. Even if it does, you can always just surgical them after the first one, or Memoricide/Cranial them. It doesn't really help blue decks against Maverick, and that's the one matchup they really, really need to shore up right now. Maindeck Teeg laughs at Mastery. I think that some decks, like Thopter/Sword especially, can get a lot of value out of the card. But I definitely don't think it's going to turn into a "decks start with 4 Walk and 4 Brainstorm" scenario. I certainly wouldn't worry about it now. It'll be several months before people manage to break it, if in fact it can be broken.

I'm unconvinced that Sigarda is better than Baneslayer, but I'll certainly be testing her. I had the same knee-jerk reaction to her, but the more I think about it, the more I remain unsure. The fact that she's a zenithable flying hexproof beatstick is fantastic, don't get me wrong. At the same time, being green opens her to Perish and other Maverick hate, by the time you're dropping a 5-drop angel you've probably got your opponent out of removal anyway, and I have won literally countless games between legacy and standard by racing stupid things with her. I mean, she straight up races Progenitus. Not many cards can ay that. As for Sigarda's ability, I guess it might have fringe utility. Most of the time, by the time you're getting punched by an Emrakul, you won't have had the mana to play Sigarda anyway (Sneak/Show comes to mind here, combo elves too). I suppose shutting off Lilianas and edicts is a good thing, but the format isn't very black right now. I guess I'd be more excited about it if more of the old Jacestill decks were running around with their 80 million sacrifice effects. Sigarda will -definitely- be tested, but I'm not going to give her a ringing accolade before that point. She'll have to work for it.

[mordraid]

I don't see Mastery seeing much play, honestly. Even if it does, you can always just surgical them after the first one, or Memoricide/Cranial them.

You can't since miracle cards must be exiled after being casted.

[Arianrhod]

You can if you hit them with a Therapy...=P

I'll admit I forgot about that. But it doesn't change my opinion on their viability. There will be decks that will use them, but it's not going to devolve into a Misstep scenario.

[TheArchitect]

You can surgical their brainstorm/ponder (or a fetchland if they are using top) to shuffle away their time walk after they put set it up on top of their library to draw on their turn.

[Star|Scream]

You can surgical their brainstorm/ponder (or a fetchland if they are using top) to shuffle away their time walk after they put set it up on top of their library to draw on their turn.

*Trollface*

The only concern is how do you know they brainstormed their timewalk to the top?

Could you instead surgical after a delver reveal?

You can also surgical after a personal tutor.

Then they have to decide to hymn themselves for 2, or use their mana to spell pierce, or worse, daze it.

[guelahpapyrus]

@eqfiremind

I did some testing with Geist, granted not with your build, and I wasn't that impressed. I use 2 Diabolic Intent MD (alongside 3 GSZs) and even so, Geist was just such a miserable top deck anything after turn two. I would so much rather have more answers than the additional aggression offered by Geist. I prefer Dungrove Elder to put pressure on my opponent because (a) it's only one slot, leaving more room for answers and (b) Elder scales better from early to late game.

Also, why no Dryad Arbor when you have Diabolic Intent?

[Kich867]

@eqfiremind

I did some testing with Geist, granted not with your build, and I wasn't that impressed. I use 2 Diabolic Intent MD (alongside 3 GSZs) and even so, Geist was just such a miserable top deck anything after turn two. I would so much rather have more answers than the additional aggression offered by Geist. I prefer Dungrove Elder to put pressure on my opponent because (a) it's only one slot, leaving more room for answers and (b) Elder scales better from early to late game.

Also, why no Dryad Arbor when you have Diabolic Intent?

I dig the dungrove elder idea. He'd actually be rather large pretty fast--as fast as a 4/4 hexproof on turn 2.

[RKPW]

Here's the list I've been testing for a while now. I feel really good about this list, I've mostly tested against Maverick, U/R Delver, G/B jank, and Burn.

Honestly though, the only match that feels unwinnable is burn most of the time. I don't really have any hate out of the board, other than loading up on discard+extirpate.

3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

sideboard

2 Deathmark
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
2 Tsunami

Personally, I feel that Punishing Fire is great, and when it comes online, it usually just hoses most matchups. Kodama has been pretty good in testing, the trample damage is way good, and he's another shrouded beater which is something I like. Just when you need that endgame creature to stick amidst removal but can't GSZ for Broodmate. Speaking of that guy, I absolutely love riding Broody to victory. Really good finisher.

Liliana is really solid in this build. And once again, she's just nuts along side punishing fire. If your opponent is ever hellbent when you land a Liliana, chances are you can mark that as a "W."

Persecutor remains strong in this deck, although, I would like a way to deal with Maze of Ith in the mainboard, but there's just no room. Occasionally I wish the Innocent Bloods were spot removal, but most of the time they do what they're supposed to do.

Only thing in the sideboard I would change is the deathmarks to either perish/virtue's ruin or dread of night. Just don't have them currently.

I've also consider running a Night of Souls' Betrayal just not sure how good it would be as a miser.

[Koby]

Kitchen Finks and Hymn to Tourach help out the Burn matchup tremendously. I run 2 Finks main with 2 more in the side. It's good against many decks right now, and I bring it in against any deck packing red.

This is the list I'm testing right now - and by no means is it optimal. Karn is just for fun - it could be an extra Liliana or even any version of Garruk right now (likely 2nd or 3rd iteration). I like the mix between spot removal with Swords and the recurring inevitability with Sun Titan. Fierce Empath is somewhat weak when it only gets Sun Titan, but I feel this is more of a Sun Titan deck which is why it includes Fleshbad Marauder - who's a house against RUG Tempo and even the occasional Show & Tell deck. Obv the combo matchup is really weak, which is why the SB is dedicated to many of those answers.

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Karn Liberated
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sun Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Fierce Empath
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Nihil Spellbomb

[Kich867]

Went to the Jupiter Games NELC event today. I went 2-3 and dropped, overall it was kind of a rough day. I made a few misplays, but overall, my play was really solid. Some games, I just couldn't get there--I wasn't in a bad position, I just kept drawing terribly until I lost.

Here's the list I ran (and intend to change):

//Creatures: 13
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Abyssal Persecuter
1x Grave Titan
1x Primeval Titan
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Scavenging Ooze

//Spells: 25
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
2x Go for the Throat
4x Green Sun's Zenith

2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Liliana of the Veil

//Lands: 22
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bayou
2x Treetop Village
4x Swamp
4x Forest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

//Sideboard: 15
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Duress
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Krosan Grip

Round 1: Turtle with Spiral Tide: 2-0

The game starts, I see him play island, ponder. I put him on spiral tide. I cabal therapy like a boss for high tide and hit it. I'm right. Turn 2 is veteran explorer, sac cabal therapy for time spiral, hymn to tourach. Turn 3, I hymn to tourach again and pass. He has no hand, top decks a candelabra, and I drop Wickerbough Elder. I kill the candelabra, swing. He draws a card and passes. I drop a thrun and swing for 4 with elder. He meditates EOT, so I take another turn, I put him to 8 with lethal on the board, his meditate got him there.

Game two, I don't even really know how I got there, but I did. I cabal therapied, whiffed on high tide. I sac veteran explorer next turn and hit merchant scroll. Nothing really happened, but, somehow my discards here and there hit the right stuff and eventually a Grave Titan dropped. He probably should have forced it, didn't, and it got him in the end.

Game three, I mull to 5, he mulls to 4. He plays island go. I top deck surgical extraction, my hand is Duress, Hymn, Veteran Explorer, Land, Land. I duress, hit time spiral, extract it, and that seals the game after I top deck a sac outlet for Explorer and after hymn he can't recover.

1-0

Round 2: Bryant Cook with TES, 0-2

Game one: I mull to 3 trying to find some discard--any discard. I drew into 4 hands with strictly fatties and little land, or land flood and fatties, or land and kill, but no discard. I keep Cabal Therapy, Swamp, Veteran Explorer. I die turn 2.

Game two: I die turn 2 after boarding in Surgical Extractions and Duresses--I never saw any hand hate except for a single cabal therapy after mulling to 5.

Bryant is a very chill guy, it was cool to meet him in person. It was pretty damn impressive watching him play TES.

1-1

Round 3: Dredge, 1-2

Game one: Weird shit happens, Scavenging ooze gets down somehow, he just can't actually kill me as I slow-roll pernicious deeds to wipe his tokens. Scavenging ooze has to die to get rid of the bridges. Eventually grave titan got down (what the fuck?!) and I ripped stronghold to get scavenging ooze back to wipe out the rest of the ichorids, no more threats!

Game two: I board in crypts and extractions. I mull aggressively to find them, don't, and lose.

Game three: I mull aggressively to find them, don't, and lose. This was very confusing to me, I never saw anything useful out of any hands. I didn't see any deeds, crypts, or surgicals in any of those hands.

1-2

Round 4: Joe with Maverick, 0-2

Game one: I have a hand of 2x Innocent blood, gftt, eternal witness, a fetch, forest, and cabal therapy. I fetch for bayou, because I need the double green to play eternal witness later--terrible idea. I cabal therapy, whiff, he wastes my bayou. He never draws another land and beats me. If I got a swamp, I control that game. His first 3 creatures all die and with only 1 mana and no accel he sits dead in the water.

Game two: I keep a solid hand, but he randomly boarded in Leyline of Sanctity. This proves to be surprisingly strong. Long story short, the game state devolves into this weird position where he has an enormous knight and an enormous ooze, I top deck almost every single discard in my deck in a row while I sit on 5 lands with grave titan in hand. If I had a 6th land, the game was over--I could swing all out over and over with zombie chumpers. Even if he traded with grave titan, it was over.

1-3

Round 5: Lloyd with American Tempo, 2-1

Game one: He drops volcanic and plays delver. I put him on UR Delver. I cabal therapy for goblin guide, see Geist / Clique / Swords and land. I pass. Shortly thereafter I get blown out.

Game two: I was proud of myself this game. I cabal therapy for jace, no jace. I see force, daze, clique, bolt, and some land. I pass. He plays land pass. Through a series of events, I ended up getting a veteran explorer out, sac it to therapy, hit force, and drop choke knowing there was only a daze in his hand that I played around. The rest of the game is pretty straightforward, though long, as I have to dig hard to find a creature to win with.

Game three: We both mull to 5. I keep a one lander, he keeps a 3 lander. He mentions this as one point, which means he only had 2 cards that weren't land in his opener. I aggressively kill explorer, as more land shouldn't help him here. He cliques me and sees Pulse, Liliana, and Innocent Blood. He bottom deck's pulse. I innocent blood his clique, drop liliana, and lock the game out from there. I slow rolled into pernicious deeds and blew up whatever he played

2-3

-- My ride at the time wants to bounce, the rest of my friends are bouncing, I bounce with them.

Thoughts:

- Abyssal Persecuter rarely performed, ever. Not like I had particularly good showings for it, but he felt very bad throughout.
- Grave Titan is fucking awesome but is often way too hard to cast. I don't like 6 drops in this deck. You don't always get there, at least in this list, and not being able to find him can be brutal.
- Primeval Titan felt like a win-more. The only time I got him was strictly to actually kill the opponent as the game was already over. This felt kind of dumb. I never want to see a 6 drop in my opening hand, it feels like I already mulled.
- I'm not sure how I feel about Hymn. It was good, but not stellar.
- The deck -probably- should be abusing Recurring Nightmare in some amount. Liliana and Recurring Nightmare can make some pretty maneuvers.
- I feel like the white versions are much stronger, but I may look into testing with red + punishing grove combo and Burning Wish since I already have the mana base and I'm actually quite fond of the jund color scheme.
- Cabal Therapy is really, really hard to play on turn 1.
- My sideboard is bad. Rectifying that upon getting other cards.

[Arianrhod]

I was also at the NELC, and did a bit better. Upon reflection, I made one crucial mistake that cost me top 8, and it wasn't actually a play error. More on that later.

The list I ran:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB:
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Perish
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Curse of Exhaustion
2x Tsunami
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Leyline of Sanctity


R1: Michael with NO RUG.

Game one he leads Trop->Hierarch into t2 Clique, and after a therapy on my end, I put him on Bant. Flashback Therapy takes his Jace, and he deploys a Sylvan. I Deed away the world and stabilize at 8 with arbitrary fatties. Before he dies, he dropped a Volcanic Island, which clued me in that he was not actually Bant, but rather NO RUG.

I don't remember my board outs exactly, and I didn't jot them down for this event. I can say that I boarded in the Perishes, the Tsunamis, and the Carpets.

Game two went on for a while, and saw me have to dig my way out of a very bad situation. I blind therapy on my turn 1, naming Natural Order, and get a hit. he proceeded to go on Clique beatdown while Jace fateseals. I land an Arena, which along with my Top negates his fatesealing, but am rapidly running out of time from exalted Clique beats. I finally manage to crack a Rector, but don't have the mana available afterward to blow up Deed. I contemplate Fettering his Jace, but then I would die to my own Arena. I settled on Fettering his Clique, which would buy me a turn if he bounced it with Jace, and got me a bit of life for Arena draws. IIRC, he chose to brainstorm with Jace as opposed to bouncing his clique, and then he resolved Natural Order. This let me drop the Perish I'd been sandbagging in my hand the whole game. He then bounced his Clique, but I drew into a Pulse to get rid of Jace. When he recast Clique, he saw a hand of something like Night of Souls, Deed, card, card. He took the Night, I remember, and then I removed his board (and my Arena) with Deed. Shortly thereafter I landed a Baneslayer, and she does what she does.

Of note: Kich867 was actually playing my friend next to me, which alerted me to the fact that there was actually another Vet player at the event. I tried to keep track of him throughout the day and we talked shop a bit. I'd later actually see a 3rd deck as well, playing another friend of mine in r6. His was also straight GB.

R2: Dave with Canadian RUG.

He drops Trop->Goose and I smile. I proceed to go Veteran->Tower->stupidity. The game ends on the wings of Baneslayer a few turns later.

In: 3x Carpet of Flowers, 2x Tsunami.

Game two I therapy him, seeing Force, Submerge, Bolt, Forked Bolt, Spell Pierce. I rip his hand apart, drop a Baneslayer, and do what I do. He complains audibly about his deck, noting that today was the first time he'd ever touched it and that he could totally outplay me. I just smile and nod and move on my way. Bryant Cook later apologized on his behalf (Cook had been sitting next to us, playing Kich, ironically), which I tried to accept as gracefully as I could. It's also not the first time I've seen this player behave in this way, though, and the idea that he thought he could outplay me when I've been playing this deck for almost a year and he literally just picked his up that day is laughable.

R3: X with Imperial Painter

I failed to jot my opponent's name down for this one, sadly.

I mull to 4 game one, finally keeping something like Veteran, Therapy, Deed, Therapy. I rip a Savannah off the top, while my opponent fetches for a basic mountain EoT, but fails to lightning bolt me. Next turn he drops a Top and an Ancient Tomb, and my spider senses are tingling. I continue to rip like a champ, drawing into a fetch. I grab a black source and therapy him, naming Painter's Servant on a hunch. I whiff, but I see REB, Gamble, Welder, and lands. I flashback for his Gamble, and take his Welder too with my second therapy. Next turn sees a Baneslayer, and his top can't show him the win before she kills him.

Surgicals and Leylines came in here, along with the 4th Deed.

Game two is barely worth mentioning, as he does what Imperial Painter sometimes does and just straight up kills me on turn two/three. I had the Deed in hand, and could have played it the turn before he activated, but I didn't have any mana to crack it, so I just died.

Game three I had some bullshit like Veteran + Tower + double Therapy. I keep, rip his hand apart, and make a Baneslayer a few turns down. He tries to top his way to victory, but once again he doesn't find anything.

R4: Jesse with Maverick (GW).

3-0 and over halfway to IDing into top 8. I want to see more Canadian, but instead my opponent goes Savannah->Hierarch. Sadface.

We have a long slugfest of a game one, going back and forth and back and forth. He overextended slightly into a Deed, and I proceeded to punish him pretty severely for it. Eventually a Baneslayer happens that he doesn't have an immediate answer for, and she does her work. I believe that I had finished setting up Kokusho/Nightmare this game, but it proved not to be necessary, and I didn't want my opponent boarding in a lot of graveyard hate.

In: Night, Deed, Perish x2

Game two he sees a fast Thalia backed up by double Wasteland, and she actually hurts me for the first time ever. I have Deed in hand, ready to wipe his board, but the extra one mana from Thalia coupled with the wastes set me back enough that he's able to get there fairly quickly.

Game three he makes a weenie board presence with multiple Moms and a Thalia. I build up enough mana to drop Night of Souls, wrathing his board except for a 4/4 Terravore. He lands a Metamorph, making a second Terravore, and crashes in. Unfortunately, I'm forced to spend my next turn dropping an Explorer to grab two plains to go with the Baneslayer in my hand, which would have stabilized me. His deck has other plans, though, and he rips a fetch off the top like a champion to do exactly lethal. These were really good, close games, though, and I came away from them feeling like the changes I made to my sideboard definitely helped against Maverick. I think I still might want to put another card or two in, but it feels much closer now.

R5: Adam with Canadian.

Game one is slightly awkward, as a fast Therapy shows my opponent sitting on Force, Goose, and five lands. He deploys his Goose, and I do my thing while he punches me in the face for one over, and over, and over again. The damn Goose got me to 7 by itself, with only one hit of that being thresholded. While I sit on a Deed, stopping the Goyf that's sitting in his hand from being played, Adam continues to flood out. I drop a Baneslayer, and he brainstorms into Forked Bolt + Lightning Bolt. Awkward. Luckily for me, I had the second already in hand, and he can't find an answer to her.

In: Tsunamis, Carpets.

Game two he leads with triple Delver. I lead with Pernicious Deed, followed by Sun Titan. 'Nough said.

R6: Rion with Maverick (GW).

Every time I've seen this guy play, he's been on some version of Bant or Maverick, and my suspicions are confirmed here. Game one I suffer the Maverick curse, and die to a HORRIFICALLY overextended board. He dropped everything as soon as he had it, and, guess what, I couldn't find a Deed even with Top going almost the whole game. Goddamnit.

In: Night, Deed, Perishes

Game two I go into serious mode. This is my win-and-in, and beyond that I'm determined not to lose to this guy, as he's a very grinder-ish person, a trade shark, and tilts really, really easily. He comes out really fast, but I blow up a Deed and buy myself some time. As he tries to rebuild his board I have the answers, with Pulse, Vindicate, and eventually Sun Titan->Deed.

Game three is another iteration in the long series of awkward maverick board states. I have an early Therapy, for the first time this round, and call Knight of the Reliquary. My thought process was that Knight comes down earlier than GSZ->Knight, and he also had a Teeg out, so GSZ is dead anyway. It turns out to be a good call, and I hit a pair of Knights blind, noting a Gideon in his hand. That summarily gets flashback removed, as I don't want to see that at all. I land a Perish for his Teeg, but he finds Scryb Ranger and starts to get really, really obnoxious with Ranger+Mom, as I stare at the two Garruks in my hand and fume. I'm pretty much digging for a Deed at this point, and he subtly over commits as time is almost up in the round. I finally find my Deed as we hit turns, blow up his world, and begin to stabilize. He GSZ's for a Scavenging Ooze on turn three of turns (he gets turn 5), obviously planning to eat creatures, give it pro my blocker with the Mom he also played that turn, and win that way. I drop Garruk and point at his Ooze (which has no green mana available to grow), as he begins to scream fuck at the top of his lungs. My hand was something like E.Wit, Garruk, Empath with Top active.

And that was my own fuck-up. While I played the match at the best of my ability, I made one bureaucratic error. Rion had called for the judge twice in game one, the first time engaging in a lengthy question -- away from the table, mind -- about stacking Sylvan Library with Horizon Canopy. Then a few turns later he did it again with a question about Scavenging Ooze. I should have asked the judge for a 5 minute extension, since the two judge calls took at least that long between them. This is standard procedure, but I was so focused on the game that I didn't even think of it then...or honestly until last night when I got home at quarter to 1 AM. If I'd had five minutes...hell, even two more minutes, I would have been able to finish him off, since he was completely out of gas and neither my Titan nor Kokusho had been used yet, to say nothing of the fact that he was at 11 from being reckless with Sylvan Library to try to end it in time.

R7: Jim Higgenbottom with Canadian.

We're at a win-and-in for both of us, and I know he's on Canadian Thresh, which is exciting. What's less than exciting is that he proceeds, by his own admission, to draw like a god both games. Multiple times, I therapy only to have him draw the card I name off the top of his deck the turn after. He has everything he needs game one. Game two sees a turn one Carpet from me, which was pretty awesome and actually led to him wastelanding his own Volc at one point to try to stop me from getting too much mana. I turn the stabilize with a Baneslayer, he rips a Submerge and kills me with a Goyf and a Goose. On the bright side, it was at least a friend that knocked me out of top 8, so I was a bit less sad than I otherwise would have been.

Until Jim walked up to me later and told me that he got 9th from being screwed on breakers. Apparently one X-1-1 didn't make it to top 8, and Jim got the short stick, which was pretty shitty. The sad thing is that I think that if we had known that, he probably would have scooped me and I would have made it, since my breakers were better than Jim's; such is life and magic, though. X-2-1 was good for 20th place, AKA nothing. It was all in all frustrating to come so close and fail, but at the same time it's far and away the best I've done as a player so far, which is important to me. I'm confident that I have a powerhouse of a decklist, but I've always had the problem of being a better deckbuilder than a player, which has hindered my creations. I'm confident that my list is better than most, but I don't have the play skill of someone like Caleb Durward, so I can't get word out that this deck is actually the real deal. Still, Vestal remains a harder meta than most GPs, and doing well at a Jupiter event is a big deal.

I'm not sure what I'm going to cut, but I do want to open up one spot in the deck for Sigarda. Baneslayer is not going to be that card, because Baneslayer won me most of my games at this event. That said, there were definitely times -- against Maverick in particular, where I want a flying hexproof body to go with my Moat. Sitting there until I set something up is a thing, but I'd rather actually kill somebody rather than give them infinite time to draw into an out. The fact that she's GSZable is gravy. Honestly, as heretical as this is, Scavenging Ooze hasn't been doing much for me. It's square in Deed range, and while the ability is stupid good, I'm not sure it's better than Sigarda would be vs the major decks in the format. I also rarely have the excess green mana available for it, since my list is tricolor. Ooze is a lot better in a straight GB list, I feel, especially since my list is fairly heavily white (same number of Plains as Forests, etc). At any rate, it'll need testing before any change is made. I don't particularly enjoy stalling out, though, and I've found myself wanting one more serious threat for a while now.

[Qweerios]

1st place at a 64 man 1k tournament at l'Imaginaire with the following list:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard (15)
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth


Round 1: 2-0 Jund
Round 2: 2-0 RUG Tempo
Round 3: 2-0 Stoneblade
Round 4: 2-0 RUG Tempo
Round 5: Draw with 4-0
Round 6: Draw with 4-0-1

Top 8:
2-1 GWru Punishing Maverick (same as R5)
2-1 High Tide (same as R6)
2-0 RUG Tempo (same as R4)

Highlights:
-Ooze was great
-Primeval Titan has been insurmountable every time I've landed one
-Thrun keeps on being dissapointing
-Treetop keeps on shining
-Nihil Spellbomb is worthless even against Dredge and PiF. Extractors combined with discard have much wider application
-Darkblast may not be maindeck material

It has been my second top 8 appearance in a non-local tournament with Nic Fit since I have started playing straight GB. I stand by my conclusion that a 3rd color is not needed.

[Kich867]

It's good to see a straight GB list wreck that hard! Every time I feel like a third color would improve it substantially something like this happens haha.

Some questions, as I would prefer not to splash, I like the consistency of the mana base of GB:

- How did Kodama treat you? Do you find him better than something like Deranged Hermit? I've always been iffy on hermit's echo cost and the token nature of him. A Pyroclasm for instance would blow him out.

- Why 4x Liliana? I've wanted to get a third one myself but 4 seems to be quite a bit.

- How is Garruk? He seems to be a strong way to push through an otherwise stale game-state, which has been relevant in some of my games (particularly against maverick, where we both went draw-go for quite some time).

And suggestions:

- I would probably drop darkblast for either innocent blood or some other targeted removal. I feel like you usually hit your own explorers with that.

- I feel sketchy about 3x top's. I would occasionally get both in my opener and it's an auto-mull. Dropping to two felt ok overall since I often want to drop them around turn 4.

The new 5 drop from AVR looks enticing:

5 mana 4/4, soulbond, give itself and another creature +4/+4. I mean, him + anything could be ridic.

[Richard Cheese]

Anyone else notice that last night Chris Higashi's deck was called Nic Fit on the SCG site, but as of this morning it changed to "Explorer Rock"?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Anyone else notice that last night Chris Higashi's deck was called Nic Fit on the SCG site, but as of this morning it changed to "Explorer Rock"?

"TES" became "Storm."

We can blame GerryT for this one. He said a while ago he's trying to give more general names to decks so they are less confusing to new players.

[Star|Scream]

1st place at a 64 man 1k tournament at l'Imaginaire with the following list:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard (15)
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth


Round 1: 2-0 Jund
Round 2: 2-0 RUG Tempo
Round 3: 2-0 Stoneblade
Round 4: 2-0 RUG Tempo
Round 5: Draw with 4-0
Round 6: Draw with 4-0-1

Top 8:
2-1 GWru Punishing Maverick (same as R5)
2-1 High Tide (same as R6)
2-0 RUG Tempo (same as R4)

Highlights:
-Ooze was great
-Primeval Titan has been insurmountable every time I've landed one
-Thrun keeps on being dissapointing
-Treetop keeps on shining
-Nihil Spellbomb is worthless even against Dredge and PiF. Extractors combined with discard have much wider application
-Darkblast may not be maindeck material

It has been my second top 8 appearance in a non-local tournament with Nic Fit since I have started playing straight GB. I stand by my conclusion that a 3rd color is not needed.

Congrats on the great finish!!! Now let's second-guess all of your choices :)

I tried this list out online. 4x Lily is interesting, because even though there were times I drew her while another one was already out, I was able to -2 her (to zero), recast, and -2 her again FTW against UGb countertop in the same turn. Also she is very witnessable with our ramp. Also 3x top is really good. We have so many shuffle effects, with GSZ, Veteran, and fetches, AND so much extra mana that we are able dig AND cast on the same turn.

The deck feels much more conducive than any other version I've tried. I like it.

Do you think you could go over some of your sideboarding? Which matches do you bring in thoughtseizes? Combo? I don't have those right now, would duress work better than IOK in that case?

[UnsungHero]

Anyone else notice that last night Chris Higashi's deck was called Nic Fit on the SCG site, but as of this morning it changed to "Explorer Rock"?

Thats because Nic Fit is a stupid as hell name. Names don't (and shouldn't) matter much but c'mon its alot easier to explain your playing Rock with Explorer rather than saying your playing Nic Fit.

[DrHealex]

I would have to disagree. I care not about the "coolness" of the names, but I enjoy the many varied unique names in eternal. For the people that PLAY the format, it instantly gives you a very good idea of their list.

IF i want terribly boring names for my decks, I'll go play standard.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Thats because Nic Fit is a stupid as hell name. Names don't (and shouldn't) matter much but c'mon its alot easier to explain your playing Rock with Explorer rather than saying your playing Nic Fit.

Nic Fit is infinitely better.

[Qweerios]

@Kich867

-Kodama is similar to Hermit but without echo, and shroud. I need Kodama to punch through Jace and Eslpeth against Stoneblade, the 4 tokens won't make it if my opponent has a single creature. Drawing 6 on Garruk is also pretty neat.

-I play 4 Lilianas because she is one of the best cards you can drop on T2 following an Explorer trigger. She affects two spheres of the game that we want control over:
1) Hand sizes
2) Board position
Drawing multiples is a non-issue.

-Garruk generates tokens that are bigger than nearly every non-Goyf, non-KotR creatures in the format. Drawing anywhere from 3-6 cards from a -3 activation will grant you the win. Better than Grave Titan because he will hit the board faster, not die to sweepers, not die to spot removal, and grant you cards rather than tokens. I rarely ever use his -6 because drawing cards usually amounts to the same result.

-Having multiple tops in an opener can be remedied with any shuffling effect. Drawing one top during a match is a crucial milestone.

-Maindeck Darkblast is mainly a tool against most DtB because it clears a path for sacrifice effects (Blood/Lily), it catches Clique (with or without Karakas), it refreshes the top3 cards in the absence of a shuffler, it can trigger Explorer when need be. Also, I cannot afford to let a Bob go unanswered during any stages of the game.

@StarScream

I side in TS/Duress against Combo and Stoneblade. Being able to hit SFM, Snapcaster, Clique, Geist, Painter, and key elves for instance is more important than giving the ANT player a free storm count. I used to play 4 Duress before Thoughtseize and it worked fine. Don't play IoK at all in this deck because the matchups where you want spot discard are matchups where you mainly need to get rid of Jace, Eslpeth, Tez, Bskull, Nat Order, Time Spiral, and other 4+ CMC cards.

[Justin]

Thats because Nic Fit is a stupid as hell name. Names don't (and shouldn't) matter much but c'mon its alot easier to explain your playing Rock with Explorer rather than saying your playing Nic Fit.

I actually think that the best name for this deck is Easy Rock (or EZ Rock, i.e. Explorer,Zenith Rock). It's actually a name that makes sense!

[Kich867]

Rock is a poor name for the deck given that you don't actually need white. Rock decks, afaik, are all GBW mid range decks. I don't see rock playing wickerbough elder, primeval titans, grave titans, broodmate dragons, veteran explorer, rector, recurring nightmare, baneslayer angel, etc. So saying it's Rock + Explorer is horribly misleading.

Many nic fit lists are GBr, or just GB. People have successfully tested GBu as well. It's also hard to actually narrow down or explicitly state the intention of the deck in a simple phrase.

Blue Sligh, explicitly tells you what the deck does. Burn, Mono-blue control, etc. They all explain what the deck does to the point.

Nic Fit on the other hand, is a deck that aims to ramp the entire game state to a later period where current legacy decks can't utilize properly. They have no 6 drop creatures that are overbudget, they use 2-3 drops that are overbudget, but a 6 drop overbudgeted creature is that much harder to deal with. It controls the board, controls the hand, ramps into a huge ass dude, and blows people up.

And quite frankly, GBx Ramp Aggro Control doesn't sound like a very nice list. Furthermore, if "Rock" is a good name, why isn't "Nic Fit"? Rock isn't an accurate description of what that deck does either, people are just familiar with it. How is "Rock" any better than "Nic Fit" when they're both completely made up and are non-descriptive names for a deck with a given plan? What actually makes Nic Fit a bad name other than people often mis-pronounce it or don't like the way it sounds?

Nic Fit, in turn, will eventually just be accepted as a GBx veteran explorer ramping control deck archetype and people will stop complaining.

I mean personally, I love the name Nic Fit. I love that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything, that's what a good name is. Solidarity is a great name, Rock is a great name, Maverick is a great name, Fish is a great name, Grinding Station is a great name, Nic Fit is a great name.

[UnsungHero]

Every time I hear Nic Fit I cannot help but to think of someone having a Nicotine Fit (someone who needs a cigarette) Such an odd name for a deck. I know it was supposed to originally be Nice Fit, but there was a typo and the name stuck. But anyways off topic.

What does everyone think of the list that top 8 the SCG Phoenix tourney?

[Star|Scream]

Every time I hear Nic Fit I cannot help but to think of someone having a Nicotine Fit (someone who needs a cigarette) Such an odd name for a deck. I know it was supposed to originally be Nice Fit, but there was a typo and the name stuck. But anyways off topic.

What does everyone think of the list that top 8 the SCG Phoenix tourney?

I only see 21 lands?

[Arianrhod]

RE the SCG top 8 list:

- Two Tops feels like not enough for how important it has ended up being.
- 1 ET in the board and 0 Rectors, but a whole lot of situational enchantments. This feels awful
- Running both off-color 6-drops, but not a Fierce Empath for FOUR Green Suns? Eesh.
- IMO Qasali is better than Wickerbough in decks that run Sun Titan.
- 0 Vindicate. I'd run a singleton Vindicate before I ran the Dismember.
- Not using the Tsunami technology. It's seriously way, way better than Choke, people.

All that said, I was impressed at the amount of work that Master of the Wild Hunt did for Chris in the games I watched. It might be time for him to go back into my deck. Thrun seemed lackluster everytime it was dropped -- very much looking forward to Sigarda instead. Otherwise yeah, it's a deck.

Oh, one more thing. There is a metric asston of graveyard hate in Chris's board. Just didn't want to lose to dredge ever, I guess?

[Kich867]

I was wondering how people feel about this guy: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=143370

I mean, every upkeep they get half-hymned? Produces blockers? Decent body? It's like .89c so I may grab one and see how it performs. I like the prospect of keeping someone in top-deck mode that much faster.

Master of the Wild Hunt actually seems pretty sweet. I'll grab him as well, I'm down with anything that produces a ton of stuff itself haha.

[lordofthepit]

I got my ass handed to me by this deck in three games today, so I'm starting to take more interest in this deck, although I'd need to grab a few Grave Titans to put this together.

Can anyone break down what the strengths and weaknesses of this archetype are, and what the white or red splash add (compared to the straight G/B version)?

Thanks!

[muscleb]

The strength of the deck is board control. You are simply able to dismantle any kind of aggro deck followed up by huge threats and card advantage. The deck sets it self up to using the explorer manaramp very well, while normal aggro decks are not capable at using all that mana as well as we do.

The problem for this deck is obviously combo and control. Having a couple of discard spells, a shitton of boardcontrol and a slow clock is not favorable against combo.

Against control, they can use the manaramp just as well as we can, plus they play planeswalkers with counterbackup. Ramping with explorer just to have them cast turn 3 jace with mana open is obviously a catastrophy.

Currently I think GB is the best, my experiences with 3 colors are not that great. The mana is just too unstable. White lets you upgrade wickerbough elder to pridemage/harmonic sliver, plowshares over black removal aaaand Ethersworn Canonist in the board(Avancyn Restored brings a good finisher as well now). Red gives you Punishing Grove, REB, Broodmate Dragon, Huntmater of the Fells.

Just as a note: It is definitely possible to beat combo with this deck. With straight GB I played 4 therapy, 3 hymn, 2 liliana and 4 duress and 1 hymn in board. With Eternal witness on top of that you can definately rip their hand apart.

[Justin]

Rock is a poor name for the deck given that you don't actually need white. Rock decks, afaik, are all GBW mid range decks. I don't see rock playing wickerbough elder, primeval titans, grave titans, broodmate dragons, veteran explorer, rector, recurring nightmare, baneslayer angel, etc. So saying it's Rock + Explorer is horribly misleading.

All of what you said is false. Traditionally, Rock was strictly a GB deck with no white. It's remained that way for most of its history. Some Legacy varients started splashing white in recent years, but GB respresents Rock far more than GBw. Rock is a GB control deck that plays mana accelleration (BOP to Explorer), discard (cabal therapy), sweepers (still playing Deed after all these years), and big beaters (from Ravenous Baloth and Spiritmonger to the improved creatures that this version runs today). Make no mistake, this IS a Rock deck.

I still say that that there is not a more appropriate name for this deck than E(xplorer)Z(enith) Rock.

[Star|Scream]

The strength of the deck is board control. You are simply able to dismantle any kind of aggro deck followed up by huge threats and card advantage. The deck sets it self up to using the explorer manaramp very well, while normal aggro decks are not capable at using all that mana as well as we do.

The problem for this deck is obviously combo and control. Having a couple of discard spells, a shitton of boardcontrol and a slow clock is not favorable against combo.

Against control, they can use the manaramp just as well as we can, plus they play planeswalkers with counterbackup. Ramping with explorer just to have them cast turn 3 jace with mana open is obviously a catastrophy.


Ideally you've resolved 2 therapies by that point, though.

[Star|Scream]

@Kich867

-Kodama is similar to Hermit but without echo, and shroud. I need Kodama to punch through Jace and Eslpeth against Stoneblade, the 4 tokens won't make it if my opponent has a single creature. Drawing 6 on Garruk is also pretty neat.

-I play 4 Lilianas because she is one of the best cards you can drop on T2 following an Explorer trigger. She affects two spheres of the game that we want control over:
1) Hand sizes
2) Board position
Drawing multiples is a non-issue.

-Garruk generates tokens that are bigger than nearly every non-Goyf, non-KotR creatures in the format. Drawing anywhere from 3-6 cards from a -3 activation will grant you the win. Better than Grave Titan because he will hit the board faster, not die to sweepers, not die to spot removal, and grant you cards rather than tokens. I rarely ever use his -6 because drawing cards usually amounts to the same result.

-Having multiple tops in an opener can be remedied with any shuffling effect. Drawing one top during a match is a crucial milestone.

-Maindeck Darkblast is mainly a tool against most DtB because it clears a path for sacrifice effects (Blood/Lily), it catches Clique (with or without Karakas), it refreshes the top3 cards in the absence of a shuffler, it can trigger Explorer when need be. Also, I cannot afford to let a Bob go unanswered during any stages of the game.

@StarScream

I side in TS/Duress against Combo and Stoneblade. Being able to hit SFM, Snapcaster, Clique, Geist, Painter, and key elves for instance is more important than giving the ANT player a free storm count. I used to play 4 Duress before Thoughtseize and it worked fine. Don't play IoK at all in this deck because the matchups where you want spot discard are matchups where you mainly need to get rid of Jace, Eslpeth, Tez, Bskull, Nat Order, Time Spiral, and other 4+ CMC cards.

I will assume you tested your list with Hymns, may I ask what you disliked about them? I tried darkblast in your list and it's cute with top tapping. If you took them out of the mainboard, what might you bring in? Hand disruption?

[Arianrhod]

A couple of notes --

We had a massive discussion for multiple pages about Hymn to Tourach a few pages back. Not having Hymns makes your combo matchup weaker, but it also voids Spell Snare and allows you to be more proactive with your deck. Qweerios was actually one of the staunchest supporters of Hymn for a long time -- I don't remember his reasoning for cutting it finally, but he definitely has tested with Hymn.

RE: the name of the deck. While I appreciate that Nic Fit is a unique name, I don't especially like it, especially since I'm a non-smoker and for some reason that always seems to come up. Awkward. EZ rock is a horrible name, because this is one of the hardest decks to correctly play in the format right now, IMO (obviously doesn't hold a candle to Doomsday, but then what really does?). I loaned it out to a friend of mine locally for a small event and he informed me later that this deck made him think harder than any blue deck he's ever played. While I appreciate the Explorer-Zenith connection, "EZ" has a separate meaning that belies the deck as a whole. Also, not everyone runs 3-4 Zeniths. Honestly, I suspect that regardless of our feelings on the matter, we're stuck with Nic Fit now. The format is full of decks with names that don't make any sense, but they stuck.

Finally, Cavern of Souls. If you haven't seen it yet:
As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
{T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

My thoughts on this card are wide-ranging, and I suspect that this card will warp the meta in a very, very favorable way for us.

1) It sucks up basic room from peoples' decks. Even Maverick, which traditionally has multiple basics, is going to be shaving them going forward for this card.

2) It is going to encourage a full-on return of aggro. I expect that short term, aggro will dominate the format with Maverick leading the way. Then we'll undergo a short period where combo decks reign supreme, until the aggro decks realize that they can build most of their boards to beat combo, since control is dead. This will conclude in a vastly aggro format with fringe combo and control elements. The fate of tempo is much less certain, since tempo usually has enough wastelands and removal spells (burn) to keep the aggro decks off their feet long enough for a goyf or a goose to go nuts. Assuming no bannings or further format-warping cards, I think that blue will eventually return after this period -- it'll just take people a while to figure out how to build it.

3) This suggests, then, that we need to build our lists to be actively targeting Maverick. Mav is already a ridiculously good deck, and Cavern will only make it better. I'm not sure where we find the room, but my gut tells me that trimming back on the blue hate is probably correct, for the time being anyway.

[Richard Cheese]

Mav getting more dominant is probably the best thing that could happen to this deck, except that combo would probably start picking up in popularity as a result. I don't think I've ever lost a round against Maverick, regardless of my particular build, and Cavern isn't going to change that matchup in the slightest.

[TheArchitect]

3) This suggests, then, that we need to build our lists to be actively targeting Maverick. Mav is already a ridiculously good deck, and Cavern will only make it better. I'm not sure where we find the room, but my gut tells me that trimming back on the blue hate is probably correct, for the time being anyway.

I agree with everything you just said, except I don't think this is best plan. We should be making our boards to improve the combo matchups. Mav is already really hard to lose to, and if they start lowing their basic count to run caverns, it will be even easier. However, if less blue based control decks show up (or at least make it past the first few rounds) we will have to worry more about combo than UW control.

[Star|Scream]

I've been testing both Qweerios' 4 Liliana GB with maindeck duress instead of darkblast, and the scg GBw with 3 liliana, 3 top, and 1 vindicate. took out the recurring nightmare, dismember 1 thrun. Here are my thoughts, though they are kind of scattered.

I really can't decide which one I want to build.


Sun titan into deed is great, but it can be difficult to get to ww.
STP is nice since the rest of our removal is sorcery speed, but innocent blooding an emrakul is really satisfying.

I've found that the mana planning is much more delicate in the GBw version, since you need WW, BB and GG fairly early, and with 21 lands and only 5 duals, it can be tricky. Not impossible, mind you, but with GB you have a lot less mana management to worry about over the course of a tournament.


Wheel of sun and moon is terrible if you can't interact with dredge's removal. Leyline is similar against storm/high tide, however it can at least slow them down a bit.

Can't think of anything else right now. Anyone else try both?

[Fatal]

I was playing Nic Fit quite long, but still had same issue - UW/UWB and hard controls, mostly they was running a lot of basics, more over they have better library manipulation and a lot of counterspells and exiling removal (stp/pte), more over Thrun stopped beeing an option since they started running black splash for lingering souls - flying was always an issue in nic fit, also liliana and batterskull was hard to deal with.

So I spend a lot of time to fix the build on current meta:
-RUG Tempo
-Maverick
-UW/b Stoneblade

those decks are actually 60% or even more of the field, combo decks aren't too present because of Blade and Tempo decks which are very hard MU for them.

Nic Fit looks very good since it can deal with RUGs and Mavericks, only hard MU was Stoneblade. So I started to change list.

Testing on Cockatrice then, on BoM:Trials

here is the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Primeval Titan
4 Pernicious Deed
2 All Is Dust
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Eternal Witness
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Karn Liberated
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
//SB
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Innocent Blood
3 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Extirpate


Here are the comments:

Cloudpost ?! Yes, connected with Veteran Explorer ramp is actually be fastest ramp in legacy. Casting 7cmc spells in turn 3 isn't a problem.

But how It helps ? Answer is easy - more removal for plainswalkers, and uncounterable wincon which leads to easy win.

Answers for Plainswalkers:
2 Maelstorm Pulse
3 Karn Liberated
2 All is Dust

In this deck Karn is like a much better Liliana - when it comes into play its mostly game, even more its almost unbeatable after first ability loyality counters are 10, exiling cards from opponent hand or just vindicate other plainswalkers is actually very handy.

Uncounterable package:
12 posts
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Kozilek
1 Emrakul

Easy deal.

But how this deck can work ?

Ok lets look at manacurve and tools to play:

Early game -Opening hand: (Turn 1-2)
-Cloudpost ramp + (Veteran Explorer/GSZ - Cabal Therapy) is enough stable to ramp to 6-7 mana, with little disruption.

Middle game:(Turn 3-4)
- Removal - 4 Pernicous Deed is a bane of all Green Based Decks, kills also manlands Equipments, probably all what can be dangerous, plainswalkers was describe upper, 2 All is dust its just so good specially that it kills all Geists, Thruns, everything - blank only vs affinity where deed is one-side apocalypse.

Late game:(+5 sometimes earlier)
just play (Primeval Titans/GSZ for them/Karns) if any of them resolve its game. You searching of Eye of Ugin/more cloudposts then cast Kozilek/Emrakul

Infinity turn loop - Emrakul + Eye of Ugin + Phyrexian Tower with 20 mana avaible - you will see its not so hard. - You will think its winmore ? Maybe but its uncounterable.

-But isn't fast aggro just kill you ?

For hell no, there are some nice add which most of people forgeting - Glimmerpost, those tiny lands gives you such a huge life that you can race turn 1 progenitus from S&T without any removal with them, can your deck do that ?

How it works - mostly resolved Primeval Titan is an engine - even without any of Posts in play you pick up 2 glimmerposts +4 life, them each gives you without playing anything else +8, +16 +32 life thats mostly enough for any aggro.

- Ok then, so what you do under turn 1 blood moon scoop - you don't have FoWs ? Imperial Painter is still a real deck which can be painful for current meta with so many dual lands.

Ok but how he wins ? Mill me ? With 2 Eldrazi's ? Nope, more over resolved Veteran is an easy out from blood moon, more over Pernicous Deed is universal removal for all time of those things.

Sounds like unbeatable deck so whats your bad MU:

- Simple -Fast Combo you have only MD disrupt in form of Cabal Therapies for combo.
- Stifles Explorer can be also painful if bad hand keeping.
- Recurred wastelands.

So based on those SB contains cheap removal in form of Innocent Blood which can also trigger Explorer.

Duress as additional discard since it also useful vs Price of Progress

Lands Toolbox - Karakas and Bojuka (you could easy play it MD)

Surgical Extraction/Extripate split to exile problematic combo elements.

This deck isn't so simple to play, playing right lands in correct order is one of the most difficult thing which I learned. Also playing Therapies with good naming - any experience player turn cabal therapies into hymn to Tourach's even after brainstorm.

Another difficult thing is using Vesuva's copy effects bring a lot of options like multiple Bojuka Bogs or instant wasteland vs problematic legendary lands like Karakas with Clique.

Some simple MU which require more experince with a deck:

-Dredge - I was thinking to improve this MU, with Scavenging Ooze but after some testing I found its not needed - really. Everything what you need is good timed Extraction/Extripate with ramping Titan with some Pulse/Deed slow down. Don't forgot that Explorer burn Bridges. Bojuka can be multiple copied by Vesuvas. Life total can be quick restock with glimmerposts.

-S&T - Sneak Attack is real problem - be careful with Explorer, use point discard to took down what you need. Remember about shuffling effect to dodge brainstorms hiding nuts on top. If its first game and opponent doesn't know what you playing he will make mistake with S&T for sure. SB Karakas is a easy tech for ramapaging Emrakuls. Use Extraction and Extripate to blank Intuition, if you remove Sneak attack - its win. Note that you can kill Emrakul with Karn, and Progenitus with Deed for 10 (it really happens). You can fix this MU by using Diabolic Edicts instead of some Innocent Blood.

-ANT/TES/Doomsday/Belcher
Those are hard MU, since turn 1 kill can occur (Mindbreak Traps can resolve this - use them if your meta is full of them) same strategy as vs most combo's - point discard + exctraction, you can also defend vs Empty the Warrens plan by Deed/Pulse. Don't worry about ramping them after you sculpt their hand, you will win faster then they recover.

-Reanimator
Not so easy MU as it looks (probably Ooze would gives an edge - run him if you except reanimators) Extripates split if mostly for this MU, sb plan with S&T isn't good for him, remember that you can't be locked with Iona - All is dust/GSZ for G Titan->Karakas. Glimmerposts gives you time.

Deck gives a lot of fun, almost like playing commander in other world. First time after I came to BoM:Trial everyone except Maverick (Played it since 2010 Dec, also wrote Primer which is in DTB) when one of the mate - Maciej Pasek (Top8 GP Amsterdam) saw my hand - he ask wtf is this ?! Then I goes:

Game one GBW Nic Fit:
2-0 - he dies by rampaging Emrakul with infinity turns

Game two Imperial Painter:
2-0 he couldn't do anything blow up deed then Titan..

Game three GW Maverick:
2-0 Deed, All is Dust, All is Dust and gg doing 5 for 1, 2 for 1, then 2 for 1 is what all wants.

Game four 1-land Belcher:
2-0 - he had one window - turn 0 (he win the roll), the deosn't go off - he loses. Had answer for tokens, then game 2 again he didnt went turn 0 lose for him - that MU was very stresful.

Topped.

Split cash.

Comments welcome,

Fatal.

P.S: Why I don't run Liliana ? Karn is just better..

[hyperchord24]

If you run 12 post and Primeval titans, than you can cut the explorer/therapy suite because getting two basics out of it pails in comparison to ramp with 12 post.

[Qweerios]

So if I get this right, when all the stars align, this deck is good?

Also, how do you beat pox?

[Star|Scream]

If you run 12 post and Primeval titans, than you can cut the explorer/therapy suite because getting two basics out of it pails in comparison to ramp with 12 post.

I tried this deck out online and it doesn't really do anything.

You can't replace your lands at instant speed against a wasteland like turbo eldrazi. Unless you already have 7 land, GSZ can only search up veteran explorer, with is useless without a sac outlet, or eternal witness.

I'm not saying it's bad or anything, but it takes a whole lot of "if's" for it to work properly.

[Fatal]

@hyperchord24

Key is to run both Explorer and Cloudpost this will generate much more mana, and more over you fetch basics color mana which avoid screw from opponent wasteland which was always problem in 12Post, also running Deeds helps with aggro.

@Qweerios

Veteran Explorer this little dude is probably the best against pox, Karn is unbeatable for them.

@Star|Scream

Crop Rotation is not too good card - its card disadvantage, an if countered do always 2 for 1, sure its useful vs wasteland but its not needed in this build you don't loses to wasteland thanks to explorer which fetch basics.

That's why you running Cabal Therapies, Tower and Deeds - all of them can be used as sac outlet.

[Star|Scream]

@hyperchord24

Key is to run both Explorer and Cloudpost this will generate much more mana, and more over you fetch basics color mana which avoid screw from opponent wasteland which was always problem in 12Post, also running Deeds helps with aggro.

@Qweerios

Veteran Explorer this little dude is probably the best against pox, Karn is unbeatable for them.

@Star|Scream

Crop Rotation is not too good card - its card disadvantage, an if countered do always 2 for 1, sure its useful vs wasteland but its not needed in this build you don't loses to wasteland thanks to explorer which fetch basics.

That's why you running Cabal Therapies, Tower and Deeds - all of them can be used as sac outlet.

How aggressively do you mulligan into veteran explorer and a sac outlet? Would you keep a hand with a veteran explorer but no sac outlets and no cloudposts?

Will you sandbag a gsz until you can get a primeval or will you immediately go for the explorer?

[Fatal]

Here are the answers:
If you have veteran explorer or GSZ with decent lands its mostly keep able, specially with SDT even without sac outlet. But its very depends on vs what you playing.

Don't put on explorer if you don't know what is he playing (mostly on play). any deck with stp will plow him. Slow roll lands control the board with deed.

about keeping GSZ it depends on your hand, and your land count, also board presence of opponent.

Here are some tips:
- If you have 4 or less and have sac outlet go on with explorer,
- If you have 4 or less and don't have sac outlet and play vs nonwhite deck go on with explorer
- If you have 4 and don't have sac outlet and play vs deck with stp go on with witness if something good is in gy.
-If you have less then 4 lands and don't have sac outlet and play vs with stp wait if you don't have to.

Same with cabal therapy if you don't know vs what playing turn 1 blind therapy is good only if you have explorer/GSZ on hand.

[conboy31]

A player top 8'd at the scg tourny today with Nic Fit. He was up vs. Hive mind that had a mildly dubious play g3 where he ponders into Hive Mind for the win then gets a free shuffle effect for putting his fetch back into his deck from a previous Emrakul trigger. I am pretty sure from the video he drew Hive Mind off the ponder.

[routlaw]

The play was legit-here is what happened:

Emrakul(s) hits the GY on the Nic Fit player's turn after a successfully named Cabal Therapy. Nic Fit player Extirpates Emrakul with the shuffle trigger on the stack, everythig resolves but they forget in the extraction hoopla to shuffle the Hive Mind player's GY, which was a lone Misty Rainforest.

The Hive Mind player starts his turn, draws and plays Ponder. Finds Hive Mind in the top three and chooses not to shuffle, then draws the top card. The table judge (all around awesome guy, btw) notices the issue with the unshuffled Misty Rainforest, then sets aside the top two cards of the library (known from the Ponder to the HM player) and shuffles the Misty back in.

No shenanigans. The Nic Fit player lost there because he went for the double-card therapy instead of the much bigger threat (Pact of the Titan). No reason not to just Therapy out the Pact and pass turn, you have a Top and are more likely to find edict effects in your deck (likely 3-5 at that point) vs. answers to Pact triggers (exactly zero).

[Nizmox]

How aggressively do you mulligan into veteran explorer and a sac outlet? Would you keep a hand with a veteran explorer but no sac outlets and no cloudposts?


When I tried the deck a while back that was my exact issue. Having Veteran Explorer with no sac outlet. Particularly annoying if your opponent is not playing an aggro deck and not attacking. I tried to add a few innocent bloods to the deck but then this seemed to dilute its power so I ended up dropping the deck.

[Kich867]

When I tried the deck a while back that was my exact issue. Having Veteran Explorer with no sac outlet. Particularly annoying if your opponent is not playing an aggro deck and not attacking. I tried to add a few innocent bloods to the deck but then this seemed to dilute its power so I ended up dropping the deck.

I very, very rarely have this issue with my current list. I've upped to 2x Phyrexian Tower, it's worth it, and with 4x cabal therapy 3-4x innocent blood's and 2x tower's / other spot removal, it works out pretty consistently.

I've moved much towards Qweerios' list, I'm only running 3x Liliana however, so it's up in the air as to what is going in that spot.

Innocent blood also serves as sweet early game removal vs most decks.

[conboy31]

The play was legit-here is what happened:

The Hive Mind player starts his turn, draws and plays Ponder. Finds Hive Mind in the top three and chooses not to shuffle, then draws the top card. The table judge (all around awesome guy, btw) notices the issue with the unshuffled Misty Rainforest, then sets aside the top two cards of the library (known from the Ponder to the HM player) and shuffles the Misty back in.

No shenanigans.

The ponder still ended having one less brick in his deck because the land was not in his deck at the time of pondering into the Hive Mind. Obviously this is a very small percentage change and probably would not have changed the outcome of the game, but Hive Mind did benefit from it.

[Zoda123]

Hi guys, I´m observing this thread for a long time and I want to reward for that somehow.

I tried Qweerios build with few minor changes on the last Saturday legacy tournament at our store. About 50 players came to fight for money+ byes on the Bazaar of Moxen.


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Primal Command*

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard (15)
1 Tarmogoyf *
4 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Extirpate
2 Massacre *
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth

Here my thoughts: Firstly I really like qweerios build, 4x Liliana and Kodama are really good.
I was forced to do few changes in decklist because i haven´t got the 2nd Garruk and damnations.

I ended after 6 rounds with 2-2-2

I played against: R1 Aggro-Loam 1:1 (G3 I needed one more turn with thrun, he ended with 4 life.)
R2 High Tide 2:1 (Discard and extirpates were really helpful)
R3 Esper Blade 0:2 (G1 I miscounted and hadn´t mana for zenithing and activating wickerbough for his batterskull when he was tapped, It costed me game afterwards)
R4 Uw tempo 1:2 (G3 another mistake from my side, I played on turn 1 explorer while i had phyr. tower in hand, he punished me with StP and then i was too slow for his serra avengers and geist of sant traft)
R5 Show and Tell 2:1 ( My deck didn´t wanted to lose against him because he gave me what i exactly needed)
R6 W weenie with armageddon 1:1 (G3 I needed one more turn again...)

Con: I really like Massacre, it let´s you lock the game with liliana very easy. I never wanted damnation instead of it.
Primal Command is bad, I just wanted to try it but even hermit would be better.
Kodama is much better than der. hermit. 4x Liliana allows you do some nice locks and treetops with prim. titan are pretty nice.

Deck is hard to play in my opininon, It doesn´t forgive some mistakes. On the other hand it´s very funny and let´s you play some really uncommon cards(Kodama wtf? I heard all the time). Also as arianhoard sayed "It´s a Nietzche deck" you can´t play it in many many ways and it depends on your play style (I wonder that no one tired the Fact or Fiction version, on mws it seemed very good)

Is it only me or others have issues with draws in G3 with Nic Fit? I want to try 1-2 Tombstalkers to get some tempo because i hate to have a draw in Round 1 of the tournament... (I played abyssal build before and Percy granted fast clock if they hadn´t ansewer for him).

Thats all folks.
Zoda

[Kich867]

Is it only me or others have issues with draws in G3 with Nic Fit? I want to try 1-2 Tombstalkers to get some tempo because i hate to have a draw in Round 1 of the tournament... (I played abyssal build before and Percy granted fast clock if they hadn´t ansewer for him).

Thats all folks.
Zoda

My problem has been that they have, literally, had an answer to Percy 100% of the time. I think I've only won 1 or 2 games with him out of probably closing in on 70-80 games. He always eats a plow to the face, or a counterspell.

[Star|Scream]

I think +1 Savannah -1 Bayou in Qweerios' straight GB list makes Gaddock Teeg & Massacre SB alot better

btw: no love for Hymn to Tourach anymore?

Why does a Savannah make Massacre better?

[Alexeezay]

ah nvm sorry

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@Hymn to Tourach: Random discard isn't good enough. Though it's a 2-for-1, pin point targeted discard is going to always be better in match ups where you need it (i.e. Storm, Hive Mind etc.) It really helps with Cabal Therapy when they reveal there entire hand. Nothing's worse than Hymning someone only to get land, land, then proceed to lose next turn.

[Star|Scream]

Has anyone played against welder decks recently?

They can use the explorer ramp better than we can. Sac effects and damnation aren't that great (wurmcoil), and mindslaver recursion sux.

Also I like massacre (instead of damnation) , but even if it isn't winning tournaments, Merfolk is still played, and is difficult to deal with.

[TheArchitect]

My problem has been that they have, literally, had an answer to Percy 100% of the time. I think I've only won 1 or 2 games with him out of probably closing in on 70-80 games. He always eats a plow to the face, or a counterspell.

I have been really liking percy. There are some games where you can drop him turn 2, but you have to remember. This is a control deck, we cant afford to have our few threats eat stps. I only drop him when I know the coast is clear of stps, or if I am baiting for a prime titan.

I have had the problem of drawing alot. Just this weekend at a 1k legacy event I scrubbed out with 0-2-2. The first loss was to a friend so I didn't mind that, but then I drew twice to matches I should have won. And then lost a forth round I lost to my own mistakes since I was just dicking around and playing for fun at that point.

When AVR comes out, I think I will splash white for Sigarda, StpS and maybe baneslayer/sun titan. It will be nice being able to just aggressively drop sigarda and give my opponent a non-interactive 4 turn clock. I would like to have the rector package at some point but I dont see myself investing in a moat in the relatively near future and thats what makes that build the nuts.

Also, I have been trying a maindeck Night of Soul's Betreyal (dropping to 1 prime hunter). I have really liked it so far. It wins the game against Esper, mav, delver RUG and random vial decks. I would suggest everyone give it a try if you haven't.

@Massacre: yeah in the matches we bring it in against, plague wind for 0 mana is pretty good.

EDIT: @starscream: My two losses at that tourney were to MUD (with no basics) and goblins :/

[moseby]

I went 3-1-2 at a local tourney with 40 peeps losing a nail biter to RUg, and Sneek & Show. Beating RUG, a crazy U/B, and I forget the other, and drawing with Esperblade with Jace's.

However I did split first with in the side event for a Library(we took cash).

[Kich867]

I agree, for one--hymn to tourach makes spell snare a real card against this deck. It's otherwise completely dead. I don't enjoy the double black requirement sometimes, primarily on the first two-three turns when you really want to hit it but can't realistically. It's kind of sketchy to go say, swamp cabal therapy, forest explorer flashback cabal therapy, grab 2 swamps into hymn. That's a powerful play, but I really don't enjoy being low on forests that early.

I've rarely gotten mileage out of it and almost always wished it was just duress.

[moseby]

@ Star|Scream

What kind of welder deck is it. I remember from about a year ago a welder reanimator deck.
How much grave yard hate are you running? It sounds like not enough, an active ooze should be a solid pounding.

[Hencules]

Also, I have been trying a maindeck Night of Soul's Betreyal (dropping to 1 prime hunter).

That card seems SO AWESOME! Instant getting rid of lot's of stuff, seems like it also gets rid of a lot!


EDIT: read your post better, you play one in the MB. Still, would you play more? It seems like solving quiet some troubles.

[TheArchitect]

That card seems SO AWESOME! Instant getting rid of lot's of stuff, seems like it also gets rid of a lot!


EDIT: read your post better, you play one in the MB. Still, would you play more? It seems like solving quiet some troubles.

It is legendary and a 4drop, so I don't really care if I see it in my opening hand, and I dont care if only see one all game. So I think one is the right number. It is easy to find with 3 tops and shuffling. I maindeck because it hoses more of the meta than massacre, but to a lesser degree. It is even decent against dredge or goblin tokens.

[Star|Scream]

@ Star|Scream

What kind of welder deck is it. I remember from about a year ago a welder reanimator deck.
How much grave yard hate are you running? It sounds like not enough, an active ooze should be a solid pounding.

welder -> metalworker -> wurmcoil or kudoltha, kudoltha -> trample 11/11 infect or they play steel hellkite, or they play mindslaver.

Very difficult to deed them out. The welder doesn't even have to be activated for them to put something scary out turn 3.

[Zoda123]

welder -> metalworker -> wurmcoil or kudoltha, kudoltha -> trample 11/11 infect or they play steel hellkite, or they play mindslaver.

Very difficult to deed them out. The welder doesn't even have to be activated for them to put something scary out turn 3.

Yeah, I think against MUD we just scoop. Of course there is small chance in discard metalworker/grim monolith, kill welder and set fast clock in that case we should play some aggressive creatures but we don´t so it´s very bad MU, on the other hand only few people play MUD so it´s a small chance to get paired with it.
Anyway, some thoughts about the question "how to dodge f*cking draws"? Only creatures that comes to my mind are Percy, Tombstalker (both get StP) and dungrove elder. I think we need to have some faster creatures to fight combo anyway because after all the discard we have, we can´t manage a good clock to beat them. Sadly, add 4X Tarmogoyf is not the right answer for us due to the deed and so on. We just need some card that says "you have just lost" it´s only the primal titan, garruk vol.3 and maybe kodama with thrun.
@Sigarda yes, she looks really nice, I´m looking forward to some test results (I don´t have money for Moat too..):-)

Z.

[Star|Scream]

Yeah, I think against MUD we just scoop. Of course there is small chance in discard metalworker/grim monolith, kill welder and set fast clock in that case we should play some aggressive creatures but we don´t so it´s very bad MU, on the other hand only few people play MUD so it´s a small chance to get paired with it.
Anyway, some thoughts about the question "how to dodge f*cking draws"? Only creatures that comes to my mind are Percy, Tombstalker (both get StP) and dungrove elder. I think we need to have some faster creatures to fight combo anyway because after all the discard we have, we can´t manage a good clock to beat them. Sadly, add 4X Tarmogoyf is not the right answer for us due to the deed and so on. We just need some card that says "you have just lost" it´s only the primal titan, garruk vol.3 and maybe kodama with thrun.
@Sigarda yes, she looks really nice, I´m looking forward to some test results (I don´t have money for Moat too..):-)

Z.

Garruk drawing 3 or more cards *should* make your opponent scoop, but there are some that just want to fight through the lock no matter what.

[LazyEyes]

Question: Say if someone at my upkeep bolts veteran explorer and I add two lands, can I still play my land for the turn? Or does the triggered effect count towards the one land drop per turn rule?

[sdematt]

You're not playing the lands, you're putting them into play, so they do NOT count.

-Matt

[1337erhosen]

In the Hymn vs. Duress debate, I think Duress is way better for all the reasons RaNDoMxGeSTuReS listed.

I don't think Night of Soul's Betrayal is what we want main deck, as it makes our Explorers not able to block, blanks Hermit Druid, and really slows down Grave Titan/Primeval Titan + Treetop Village. It does not help us do what we need to do, which is "Win Faster". Dread of Night answers everything we have a problem with, fits our curve a lot better, and works in multiples. There are corner cases where NoSB is better, but overall Dread of Night is where we want to be.

Also, two crazy ideas:
If you run Primeval Titan, you could splash 1 Kessig Wolf-Run and 1 Mountain for maximum lolz.
If you hate your threats getting answered by StP, Asceticism is a card that makes your Grave Titan really stick.

[Star|Scream]

So I've been trying to work Sigarda into this deck, but I could use some help for the mana.

I really don't want to hard cast her.
I don't want to run rector,
I *think* I would rather run innocent blood over STP.
I will probably main deck 1 pridemage, though.

So with all that being said I really don't need much white, but I do want the ability to hardcast her, and *possibly* sideboard Leyline of Sanctity

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 Fetch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Utility

So I have 2 slots left. I could leave that as is and use primeval as my second finisher, and put in 2 treetops.

I could make grave titan my second finisher and add a scrubland (which I don't own, and would rather not purchase if there are other options)

I could do 2 plains and add another fetch.

I just don't want to be sitting on a plains when I need green, but I do want the ability to late-game hardcast Sigarda.

Any thoughts would really be helpful!

[hyperchord24]

@ 1337erhosen: Dense Foliage is cheaper for the same effect. However, it doesn't do as much as Asceticism. However if you all just run Sigrada, that problem is mitigated.

@Star Scream: You don't want to hard cast Sigrada, but you'll hardcast titan? I've never really had an issue getting double white. I play more control, so I'm not steaming with 5 mana on turn three and only 1 white mana. Here's my land base:

5 fetches
3 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Plans
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

My list is similar to one of the lists on page 38

[moseby]

Add 1 more plains I think 22 is the correct number for a 3 colour deck, also I would contemplate -1 bayou +1 scrubland. If you are going white you would also splash Elspeth, Knight-Errant for flying thruns. I run 22 but am currently splashing red for broodmate dragon, 1 of the reasons being is that if I get perished I still have at least 1 beater on the board.

Also why are people still running deranged Hermit, 10 mana only to see him die to every single piece of removal, and tree of redemption in the board is a house against RUg.

[hyperchord24]

Yeah, in all my icarnations, I've always run 22 lands.

I really feel strongly about Sigrada. However, in building the deck, I don't have the room for Baneslayer, the rector package, Sun Titan, Liliana, etc. I really love cheating Moat into play, but I think I can be satiated by playing Enduring Ideal in Modern. I'd love to see some lists with Sigrada if people are testing her.

[Star|Scream]

Let me rephrase. I'm hoping to not have to hard-cast Sigarda, because I need GG for garruk & witness, and I need BB for lily and maybe grave titan. However I want the ability to, so I will try 22 lands with 8 basics.

[Arianrhod]

Been a little since I've posted here. I've continued to do well with my list, placing highly in several local tournaments, although nothing major to report.

Things I'm thinking about:
-Scavenging Ooze is coming out. Don't get me wrong, the card is absolutely amazing. However, I increasingly feel that for the direction my list is going, I don't want it. It takes multiple green mana to use efficiently, and it's square in the middle of Deed's activation range. I've been resisting cutting it for a long time now, but the advent of Sigarda is something I can't ignore, and I need to find the room somewhere. The fact that Ooze doesn't fly is something I expect to become more relevant in the future, as Moat should become better positioned in the meta with the printing of Caverns of Souls. While the fringe benefits of Ooze vs decks with Snapcaster is cool, I already stomp Dredge and Reanimator is going to be a bitch anyway...Ooze won't come down fast enough to help that, unless it's in my opener....and even then, maybe not. The incremental life gain is something I'm going to miss, considering that it has saved me several games, however I feel that the trade off for the faster, nigh unkillable clock of Sigarda is worth it.

-White versions can definitely be run without Rector...I don't really understand why people are surprised about this. I continue to be depressed by the lists that are top8ing the SCG Opens, though, because they don't reflect the true potential of the deck IMO. Deranged Hermit is awful. Get it out. That said, the slowly increasing presence of Hive Mind at least in the Open circuit is troubling. I'm pretty sure that's the one deck besides Sneak/Show that we can never beat under any circumstances barring miracles from on high.

-Metalworker revolves entirely around Monolith and Metalworker for them, and Cabal Therapy and Deed for us. If we can shut down their fast mana, we can choke them until Deed wraths away everything. If you have access to Moat, it can be an enormous cock-block for them as well, although you still need to worry about the 1x Steel Hellkite that most lists run (potentially Spine of Ish Sah as well). It's not a good matchup by any means, but it is winnable.

-Night of Souls is awesome board material, but I don't think it really fits that well maindeck. Note that Dread of Night is awful for us -- it gets Deeded away constantly. Also, I believe that the 4th Deed in the sideboard should be mandatory with the enormous presence of Maverick. It also helps against Dredge, Enchantress, Affinity, and so many other decks. I never realized how much I would board it in until I actually tried it.

I'm working more on the red version with Burning Wish as far as R&D goes, since I'm pretty happy with my Rector list aside from the perpetual tweaking. I'll post again before too long with my thoughts on that list (and the list itself, of course).

[hyperchord24]

Great stuff. But no list? I'm dying to see your GBw version with Sigrada.

[Arianrhod]

Lol, alright. Here you go:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

1x Moat
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Pernicious Deed

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Perish
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Attrition


My sideboard is very flexible and changes a lot based on my expected metagame -- that's just my last board configuration. Attrition wasn't horrible, but it'd be better in the theoretical token build with Bitterblossoms and more walkers. Ooze was in the board because I was experimenting with cutting him, but I wanted to have him around in case it proved to be a horrible idea (it wasn't, and I never boarded him in). Since my list is heavy white, I can run Perish and not care. Virtue's is probably going to come out, leaving me with three flex spots that can pretty much be whatever. At this point I'm thinking two of them are going to become Swords to Plowshares, with the other two hopefully finding their way maindeck (although Arena is the only card I know I want to cut...it was amazing in the control meta, but as the format shifts to aggro I do not want to be paying life for cards at all). However, it may be that if I can squeeze the two Swords in main, the three flex spots will become combo hate. In making my list better vs maverick, I lost a lot of my combo matchup, and I'd like to regain some ground there. So some combination of Cranial+Memoricide, Leyline of Sanctity, Curse of Exhaustion, Chains of Mephistopheles, and a few other experimental annoyances will probably be coming back. The core of my board is:

3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Pernicious Deed

Everything else is subject to change. Those cards, however, have proven themselves as mainstays of the deck. Carpet seems a little odd, especially next to Tsunami, but the thing is that you don't need it at the point at which you drop Tsu, or when you're busting a Deed. It serves as an additional ramp source that blue decks simply cannot allow to exist. Veteran is all well and good, but, especially after game one (hopefully), most blue players will try to stop you from using Veteran to ramp, either by Swordsing if you give them the chance, Forcing, graveyard hating, and whatnot. Also, I have won multiple games vs Thresh where I have like one land and a Carpet of Flowers, and it gives me more than enough mana to actively compete with them.

[Star|Scream]

You've said Tsunami is just better than choke, but could you elaborate? An unanswered choke does just that... chokes them off from their land. Even if they get more land, they can only use it once. They start dazing things just for the mana. Sometimes they just scoop right there.

I admit I haven't tried Tsunami, but one merit I could see is getting them to pull out a bunch of islands with explorer and then BOOM. But it's still a one time effect.

[Arianrhod]

One time is usually enough, given that you're getting amazing amounts of value out of the one spell. Also Witnessing it is possible, and I have done it in the past. The big thing about Tsunami is that when you crack an Explorer, they have a chance at getting two untapped islands. This can backfire horribly, notwithstanding that this could conceivably force you to stop playing explorers lest they kill them. Also, Sword of Feast and Famine is a thing, and I have lost multiple games to an equipped Sword untapping all of their lands under Choke. Additionally, although it's something of a corner case, you can do a sequence of plays whereby you Therapy a High Tide player naming Force, then proceed to crack an Explorer into Tsunami. High Tide cannot recover from that. It does the same thing as Choke, but IMO it does it better.

[Qweerios]

Regarding Sigarda, she is definitely good but I strongly disagree on her being a motive to splash white. If you are already splashing white for StP, Vindicate, Elspeth, Qasali, and Teeg for instance, by all means make Sigarda your new Thrun/Kodama. As of now, I don't believe that white has anything worth extending into a 3rd color yet. Also, I wouldn't play Sigarda > Kodama with so many Lingering Souls around...

@Arianrhod

You can't be serious about Baneslayer man... I know the picture is pretty and it has amazing flavor but just think it through.

[Arianrhod]

The rules change a little when Moat is involved. I wouldn't touch her without also running Moat, but with Moat, she becomes a very viable wincon. I was a little skeptical about putting her in at first, but I tested with the pair of them in and they have done nothing but impress me since I put them in, including in real-world major events like GP Indy. They haven't just been succeeding on my kitchen table, I promise you. In all honesty, I actually win more games through her anymore than I do through titan beats or Kokusho looping. She's also a major contributing factor to my list's insanely good Canadian matchup -- they can't even come close to effectively dealing with her. She's been in my deck for around two months now, and she's definitely not in any danger of going anywhere. I've thought about it -- in fact, I was originally going to cut one for Sigarda. They're just so relevant that I can't bring myself to do it.

I'm not sure that I would cite Lingering Souls as a reason to avoid Sigarda, although my list is a bit different due to the presence of the Rector package, which encourages my 3x Garruk Relentless. With them, Deeds, and Pulses (also Surgicals out of the board, and Night of Souls' Betrayal), I don't usually have a problem dealing with a few spirits. Also, the meta is starting to look like Master of the Wild Hunt should be back in, and he'd love to munch on spirit tokens. All day.

[Qweerios]

Isn't Percy just better than Baneslayer with Moat? For 5 mana, why not even Bloodgift Demon?

[hyperchord24]

Then I think it depends on the lists. I play more control (with moat) and so I like the lifelink. I would even be so crazy as to say Batterskull might get that spot in a build without moat because he can block. I never tested Bloodgift because I've been running phyrexian arena.

[Arianrhod]

Pretty much what Hyperchord said. Baneslayer was also introduced at a time when Stoneblade and Thresh were huge in my area, which meant I was on the 3x Phyrexian Arena plan -- as such, the lifelink was exceedingly relevant. Now that the meta has shifted to aggro, Arenas have been dropped in favor of other things, but the lifelink is still amazing. I've never liked Percy, and if I were to try him, I would have to completely shift my list around to accommodate him. Bloodgift is really interesting (as are a lot of the big, flying five-drops that do things), but it has two problems that Baneslayer does not: 1) it makes you lose life, or your opponent draw a card, which is the very thing I'm trying to get away from right now; and 2) it requires double black, which I currently have 0 maindeck cards with that requirement (and NoSB is worth it for the matchups I side it in). Flying, first strike, and lifelink are all amazing keywords for legacy right now, and the fact that she can race damn near any board state is fantastic for this deck. Hell, she can race a Progenitus.

Also, although this is far and away NOT a reason to run her, I will note that it is hilarious beyond belief when her protections are randomly relevant in legacy. Tombstalker and Steel Hellkite have both had to just stare at my Baneslayers at various moments. Again, that's obviously not a reason for anything.

[Star|Scream]

One time is usually enough, given that you're getting amazing amounts of value out of the one spell. Also Witnessing it is possible, and I have done it in the past. The big thing about Tsunami is that when you crack an Explorer, they have a chance at getting two untapped islands. This can backfire horribly, notwithstanding that this could conceivably force you to stop playing explorers lest they kill them. Also, Sword of Feast and Famine is a thing, and I have lost multiple games to an equipped Sword untapping all of their lands under Choke. Additionally, although it's something of a corner case, you can do a sequence of plays whereby you Therapy a High Tide player naming Force, then proceed to crack an Explorer into Tsunami. High Tide cannot recover from that. It does the same thing as Choke, but IMO it does it better.

Thank you for the response. I will look into that.

[1337erhosen]

It seems like the major draw to playing the white splash is Moat, and that's not in my price range. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on a red splash in this deck for Huntmaster of the Fells, Broodmate Dragon, Kessig Wolf Run, and most importantly Punishing Fire.

Something like this:
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Oooze
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Punishing Fire
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Treetop Village
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

The main draw of this list would be Punishing Fire, as it helps us grind the Control match-up a lot better by answering Jace and Lingering Souls. It's also quite good against Maverick and Delver, and gives us a way to kill Veteran Explorer.

Kessig Wolf Run allows late Veteran Explorers and Garruk tokens to become game-ending threats by trampling over Lingering Souls tokens.

Broodmate Dragon is not quite as much card advantage as Grave Titan, but it can be fetched with GSZ and blocks in the air as an answer to Delver.

I would also consider Huntmaster a strict upgrade to Kitchen Finks as it takes care of Delvers and if left unanswered accrues a lot of card advantage.

The obvious disadvantage of this list is that the mana is worse, often leaving us vulnerable to wasteland, but I think the utility of the red cards more than makes up for the mana.

[muscleb]

Having played this deck since christmas, tested different cards, colors and builds. I think BG is just the best configuration at the moment. The top aggro decks in the format plays wasteland and some other manadenial plan(stifle and thalia+knight). Playing 3 colors is just asking for trouble. The upside is slightly better spot removal(STP), the finisher are not really better than grave titan anyway.
Playing against RUG and dropping basic+basic+basic+basic just blanks so much of their deck.

In my experience you want and bunch of cheap cards to answer/disrupt your opponent the first couple of turns so you can start to cast deeds, planeswalkers and value stuff like witness+recurring nightmare and what not.
It can be really tempting to stuff all kinds of insane(read: expensive) cards in your deck, but your explorer plan does not always go off, or your hand is double black and double white spells.
The point is: The mana restrictions in this deck is very unique, don't stretch it.

The interesting thing is this new angel: How good is it versus how much worse your mana gets since he is double white.

PS: Don't cut Ooze, he is the man.

[ZeinVoncy]

Does Heartless Summoning have a place in this deck? I'm looking to get into this deck type.

[conboy31]

It is at complete odds with Pernicious Deeds and any associated infinite combo would be far too cumbersome. Grab a placing GB or GBw list and try it out before shoehorning in a Heartless Summoning. Have patience with the deck, it is tough but rewarding to navigate.

[Qweerios]

Also, although this is far and away NOT a reason to run her, I will note that it is hilarious beyond belief when her protections are randomly relevant in legacy. Tombstalker and Steel Hellkite have both had to just stare at my Baneslayers at various moments. Again, that's obviously not a reason for anything.

It's kinda funny how her protections don't even come into play against Tombstalker and Hellkite since both are 5/5s and BSA has First Strike.

About ooze, I thought long and hard about his inclusion in the deck and how he is one of our only removable creature. At first I wanted to remove him entirely from the mainboard but as I think about it more, I actually want more copies in the deck. The thing is, despite playing a deck that nearly dodges removal entirely, having our creatures removal-proof is not a requirement for its inclusion. Similarly, having a CMC of 2 shouldn't be preventing you to play Hymn to Tourach in your deck despite it being vulnerable to Spell Snare. For those who haven't caught on yet, we don't play Hymn because it is worst than Thoughtseize/IoK/Duress, not because it is Spell Snare-able.

Here are a few facts about Ooze and removal:
1) Ooze is great against our worst matchups (Dredge, Combo, Burn/Sligh strategies)
2) Ooze doesn't get removed by our worst matchups
3) Ooze is relevant in all matchups (never dead)
4) Our opponents ought to side out targeted removal in G2, if they don't, it is their loss wether we play Ooze or not.
5) Ooze trumps nearly every creature on the field. The fact that he is straight in Deed's range is almost irrelevant because your Deed will likely destroy whatever amount of creatures is trumping your Ooze. Saying Ooze is bad with Deed is comparable to saying that Thrun's regeneration ability is good with Deed, which is true in theory but irrelevent in practice.

I have replaced my Thrun with a second Ooze mainly for these reasons, but there are plenty more.

Furthermore, here is a very simple explanation to play two colors instead of three. Our manabase has 21-22 lands, 6-7 are basics, and at least 2 are colorless nonbasics and 1 is a Arbor. Independant of an Explorer trigger, we are prone to miss land drops after the 3rd-4th land. The more you extend in a 3rd color (Jace, Elspeth, Sigarda), the less you can extend into your core colors (Liliana, Hymn, Primal Hunter, Kodama, Treetop) without increasing your chances of being color screwed. In other words, you become more dependant on Explorer triggers and dual lands. Some of my biggest complaints about playing GBW were:

-screwing myself over for a T1 StP;
-having 3 lands on T3 but couldn't Vindicate;
-having to play Garruk Worthlessless instead of his Primal brother.


P.S: 12 Post is an outrageous matchup...

[Star|Scream]

I <3 Carpet of Flowers.

[1337erhosen]

@Qweerios
How do you like having four Lilianas? I've only picked up the deck recently, but I've never been very happy with her, mostly because I never want to +1 her. I feel like I need all my lands, and discarding a fatty is not a good idea. Any tips on playing her?

[mishrazz]

4 Liliana sounds like a better fit in a Pox deck, thats where i run mine anyaways :tongue:

2 Cards i want to point out in my Nic Fit is: Recurring Nightmare and Diabolic Intent.
A veteran explorer turn 1, beat for 1 and play a diabolic intent for hymn on turn 2. So sweet.. On later rounds i usually intent a finks or explorer for deed or recurring nightmare. Feels almost like cheating. Nightmare is just too good in this deck.

Lately i have tried a Garruk Relentless. He works really well in this deck, dealing damage, sacking creatures, fetching new dudes, making wolves along the way.
So far i only play one of each. (nightmare, intent and garruk) But i might go for 2 intents. Fetching anything in the deck and gaing lands or life doing so is great.

[Star|Scream]

@Qweerios
How do you like having four Lilianas? I've only picked up the deck recently, but I've never been very happy with her, mostly because I never want to +1 her. I feel like I need all my lands, and discarding a fatty is not a good idea. Any tips on playing her?

There are up to 6 maindeck cards that we'd be happy to discard.

4 therapy
2 darkblast

Then there are 2 witnesses that we'd be happy to recur other cards with.

Whenever I'm being IOK'd or Surgical Extractioned, they usually go for Lily, followed by deed. If those are the cards they are most scared of, then those are the cards I want to always see!!

Also a liliana set on 2 with one in hand means you can have target player sac 2 creatures in one turn.

Also, I had someone concede on MWS after discarding a Garruk. To paraphrase they said if that was the worst card in my hand they didn't want to continue.

[hyperchord24]

About the third color, there are a lot of Nic Fit decks on TCdecks that are three colors. Heck, there aer a lot that still run Birthing Pod. I'm not saying that it's reason to run three colors, but it would seem that the proof is in the pudding.

[Star|Scream]

I wouldn't mind a minor splash into white for Teeg, especially with the miracle cards coming out. Reveal mastery, flip delver, cast mastery, swing for 3. Cast another delver, second turn, reveal mastery, flip delver, swing for 6....

Not sure if teeg would help any since it can just be burned out, but... sheesh...