[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control) [Archive] - Page 5

f|i[p]

04-27-2012, 12:05 PM

I brought Nicfit to a local tourney last weekend, I was too tired and busy to make a tourney report right away..so here we go ...and managed to take it to top 8

103 players

THE LIST

CREATURES (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan

SPELLS (23)
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate

PLANESWALKERS (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Primal Hunter

LANDS (21)
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

SIDEBAORD
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Extirpate
2 Choke
2 Damnation
4 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg

--------------------------
Took Nicfit to top 8. Got 2nd at the swiss with a 6-1 record, but lost the first round of the top 8 eliminations.

Round 1 -Maverick

Game 1 -(loss) I immediately mulligan to 5..without seeing any lands, or off color lands...Lost to a quick Kotr..
Game 2 -(loss) I have a good hand of 3 fetches pernicious deed and damnation, swords... but immediately lost to a 2nd turn mindcensor, where in I could not fetch into a plains... then I go down the drain with 2 fetches fetching nothing... I lose...

Notes -- I should have expected the mindcensor, as it was already running at the back of my head, I should have gone for the plains in the start...as I didn't really need a basic swamp at that particular moment.

Record 0-1

ROUND 2 - Ledless dredge

Game 1- (win)a sigh of relief as soon as I see him playing dredge, as I have actually expected to go against dredge..I quickly win the game with an ooze...
Game 2- (win)Ooze , teeg , tormods and diabolic intent to another tormods, wins me the game while also removing all his bridges..

Record 1-1

ROUND 3 - Dredge with LED

Game 1 - (win)an early ooze wins me the game again, since he couldn't dredge the first few turns into something significant..
Game 2- (win)I have no gravehate, but I got to set up an early deed, then an explorer to sun titan... which gets back deed.. then a teeg to help me keep dread return at bay..

Record 2-1

ROUND 4 High Tide

Game 1 - (win)I have no idea what he was playing, but as soon as I see him dropping his basic island, I put him in combo... I have a good hand of 2 therapies and liliana, ooze... which rips his hand apart... I sac ooze to therapy just to make sure he has no counter spell for liliana.
Game 2 - (win) Every other creature control cards go out as well as veteran explorer, I even put nihil spell bomb in just to get a free draw when need be... Duress, cabal therapy, then choke rips his hand and slows him down...Vindicate on a land , then dropped teeg .followed by a spell bomb.. which drew me a liliana... for the win...

Record 3-1

Notes -- The win condition is really slow,but its nice to see that liliana can constantly control an opponents hand to be able to stop him from rebuilding it... I was able to use both ultimates of liliana for both games...

ROUND 5-- Ant

Game 1 --(win) He miscalculates his mana as I have already taken out his LED.
Game 2 --(loss) he comboes off with past in flames.. but time is called..
Game 3 -- (win) I decided not to play game 3 and just take the draw since time was already called and we haven't even shuffled yet..There was no chance in hell I was going to win game 3 anyway... however he just gave me the win because his kids were already waiting... and It seems that he was disappointed about his miscalculations during game 1. Nice guy.. he said he'd rather give me the win than have both of our chances dwindle...so he wished me luck and told me to get to the top 8..

Record 4-1

Note - Here i was seemingly just blessed that he was nice enough to give me the win.

ROUND 6 - RUG

Game 1- I get pressured , but I get the chance to deed away his board, I win the game with liliana and batterskull.
Game 2 - I was down to 3 with no blockers, but time was called... so its 1-0

REcord -5-1

ROUND 7 -reanimator

Game 1 - He mulligans to 4... but doesn't show what deck he was playing, no matter if I used liliana... and so..
Game 2- I have no idea what he was playing, I put him on esperblade so I didn't side in anytihing...Lost due to a surprise reanimate on Gin.. and that was over..
Game 3- He mulligans to 4 again...which spelled his doom... Time was called early, but again, the guy was nice enough to let me finish the game...

Record 6-1

Notes- this deck takes quite sometime to win...

2nd place after 7 rounds of swiss

TOp 8.. I get paired with No 7...

Affinity

I thought to myself.. finally a good match up, but don't get over confident, as affinity has a way of being fast and the furious...

Game 1 - Nicfit does what it does well, get basics.. and deed a way the entire board...
Game 2- I get stuck on 3 land, with needles naming deed... I manage to pulse the needle. but it was just o late to save me....even when I have 2 deeds at hand...
Game 3--I get stuck on 2 lands and birds of paradise....a needle coming down on deed again.. he natures claim my sensei, to make me choose between fetching lands with explorer.. or letting my sensei shuffle in the deck... I choose to keep sensei... I never find my 4th land and 5th land...and he wins via Tezz....

Note-- I was given the choice of fetching 2 basics which would give me 5 land, but not much in hand. I think I needed the sensei more than the lands specially with the pressure... which i still stand by now.. But who knows really...

OVER ALL -- I was entirely blessed that I won bad match ups and lost to good match ups...

FINAL NOTES ---

First of all , I am so used to playing junk , and white is my favorite color, but for this deck, I don't think white is needed at all.. Consistency is more important.. Having to decide when you need white or black, or double colors will give your deck inconsistencies... being vulnerable to wasteland is also an issue of a 3 color list...

However if you would really want white in the deck, I would suggest only a very light splash, maybe just for stp, and other sb cards.

Most of my losses came from land problems... Getting stuck in 2-3 lands is very bad for this deck.

I don't think 6 cc creatures are needed in this deck.. staying within the confines of 4-5 cc creatures keeps me safe within my lands reach... or maybe if there is even a way to win with planes walkers instead

Diabolic intent was good as it served as a tutor for cards when i needed it.. If I do switch to a green black list, I would probably consider raising this to 2 pcs, and adding more sacrificial creatures.

I deck wins in a slow fashion.. and is not good at times.. I think we need to add faster win conditions...

I think Gb is the way to go...

1337erhosen

04-27-2012, 04:21 PM

Congrats on your finish!
Could you post a Gb list that you would use at a future event?

Stoyrm

04-27-2012, 06:53 PM

3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Grave Titan
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Dismember
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top

My last list. Recurring Nightmare was amazing, as was Master of the Wild Hunt. Kodama of the North Tree is the answer to all my lingering souls + jace problems. Thrun isn't that good, but i'm not sure if i want to cut it for Sigarda. Gaddock Teeg allows me to stop Dread Return and some combo decks a bit easier. Not been dissapointed yet. I've not used Garruk, Primal Hunter yet, but i'm intrigued.

As for sideboard:
2 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kitchen Finks

Not sure if this is good enough though, it's just a draft so far :).

Kich867

04-28-2012, 03:49 AM

Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
2 Darkblast
2 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard (15)
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth

I've been trying this list for a few weeks now, and I find myself having a lot of trouble winning. Before this I was running a similar list that was BG and had almost identical issues I'm having right now.

My biggest issue is that, if I don't kill a veteran explorer within the first 3 turns of the game I feel awfully behind--the deck itself has very little interaction with the opponent in the first few turns so they have no reason to really overextend. I find that stoneblade players who play excessively passive against me are incredibly difficult to beat. Furthermore, handing them a jace on their untap is quite brutal.

So that leads me to be wary of hands that don't involve an explorer + some way to kill it. In each set, I lost a game to being unable to kill my explorer because they had a flying creature with something attached to it.

Primeval Titan thus far has never lived to swing and if he did he could have been virtually any other creature and still accomplished the same goal. Treetop villages are in the same vein (the number of times I've heard "Snapcaster plow, wasteland" is frustrating). It's also sketchy having 3 sources of green mana that can't tap the turn they come into play and 2 colorless sources. I've had to ship enough hands that were Phyrexian Tower + Treetop or Dryad to warrant skepticism.

I've currently had to win off the back of a thrun moreso than any other creature in the deck. In fact, as a general statement, most games I win revolve exclusively around landing a thrun and bombing the board with deeds and pulses until the coast is clear and going in again. Titan is something I rarely even get enough mana to ramp into and by the time I have 7 mana to GSZ for him they often have some kind of unused either removal or counter that they haven't had to / been unable to use due to land flood or hexproof..

I'm currently in the process of trading for the lands to move into GBw, splashing for potentially swords, sigarda, qasali, and some vindicates. Alternative Path to Exile may be pretty relevant, given that after 1 explorer most decks run out of basics to fetch.

I want to drop wickerbough elder, titan, the manlands, and get some more targeted removal in there + another hard to deal with beater. Between thrun, kodama, and sigarda that's 3 hexproof/shroud beaters.

Alternatively, I have the manabase for jund, and red actually offers a surprising number of useful things. For one, broodmate dragon is in my opinion better than primeval titan. It flies and it's harder to fully deal with. Pyrostatic Pillar is absurdly good against combo. Burn is very good against planeswalkers. Ancient Grudge is absurdly good against equipment. Red elemental blast is pretty good against blue.

Nelis

04-28-2012, 04:33 AM

I think you're spot on with your assessment.

I don't understand why Primeval was put in the deck in the first place. At 6 mana you can cast anything you want. What does it actually offer? Why not play Grave Titan instead, if you want to play a titan? I put Grave Titan in my (BG) deck and it's amazing.

I replaced Wickerbough Elder with Viridian Shaman. There aren't that many enchantments (we want to get rid off anyway, it's mostly artifacts (equipments) I mean it takes 6 mana if you want to search for it with GSZ and activate it. And if push comes to shove there's always Pulse.

My list:
Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Spiritmonger
1 Grave Titan

Instant/Sorcery (16)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest

I'm still debating on a few things:

I'm contemplating adding Volraths Stronghold but I'm not sure yet if it's really needed.
I want to add another Phyrexian Tower. I figure the deck wants to maximize it's chance of being able to sac Veteran Explorer. And it makes a turn 2 Spirit Mongers possible.
I'm not sure if I want to keep Kitchen Finks in.
I'm thinking of changing Inquisition of Kozilek into Thoughtseize or just don't play them at all and only run Cabal Therapies. This will open 2 or 3 spots for the first 2 changes.

Kich867

04-28-2012, 10:22 AM

Spiritmonger really shouldn't be in this deck. I don't think it's possible to warrant his inclusion over another 5cmc beater. At his very best he gets around swords of x and y shenanigans and that's about it.

Arianrhod

04-28-2012, 10:58 AM

Kich867

04-28-2012, 11:06 AM

I dislike the lack of Kokusho here, and I feel that if you're using non-green 6-drops, Fierce Empath is a pretty good dude, since it lets you GSZ for them. Shaman actually seems like a perfectly respectable replacement for Qasali in straight GB lists. I've always thought Wickerbough is vastly too expensive for this deck (and that's saying something). I also agree with Kich; I don't like Spiritmonger here. Blade decks are becoming significantly less common in the meta, and that's the only matchup where he might possibly shine. I'd make those two slots either Kodama + Kokusho or Kokusho + Empath. Looping someone out with Nightmare has won me many games, and it's an incredibly efficient wincon. It's worth remembering that Nightmare is immune to enchantment destruction (even Krosan Grip) if you're smart with it. Literally the only way they can get rid of it is by discard or counterspells, and even then you can get it back later with a Witness.

As far as your planned changes -- I took Finks out a while back, and never missed him yet. Actually, I missed him exactly once, but that was a corner case. I've never run Volrath's since the earliest versions of the deck, and I've never even thought about it. If you're running out of gas with this deck, you're doing it wrong. Volrath is like the 8th level "just in case" plan. Totally unnecessary IMO. As far as the discard goes, what does your sideboard look like? Targeted discard + surgicals is pretty much the only out GB has to combo, so you want to make sure you have enough between main and board. If you cut them and have the room to spare, you might want to try out some of RichardCheese's technology -- Dungrove Elder. You have 9 Forest type lands, and it would be pretty good vs RUG. Maverick would probably just chump+mom it all day, but I guess you can't have everything. It's worth a thought, I think, at the least.

Elder is something I've definitely given thought to. I'm honestly just very skeptical of six drops as a general statement at this point. Kokusho loops are one thing, but six drop beaters almost never seem relevant--of them, Grave Titan is definitively the best I've encountered. Primeval Titan often feels underwhelming, getting more lands is never necessary and the manlands are garbage, but deathtouch and flooding the field with dudes is. They are also untapped, which was relevant last night. Treetop villages have never impacted the game and almost always die when they attack.

Personally, I'd rather not aim for massive late-game beaters because I feel that without shroud or hexproof they just aren't worth it, I'll give it a shot with fierce empath and grave titan however. I would much prefer to just play kodama / sigarda / thrun as my win cons and use a gross amount of removal to control the board state.

Arianrhod

04-28-2012, 11:20 AM

I actually like the way you phrased that, and I agree with it. That also explains my dislike of Grave Titan -- 6-drops in this deck need to DO something. Sun Titan enables degeneracy, and Kokusho loops FTW. They don't generally beat down (well, sometimes). But they are not "beatdown" win conditions, like my 5-drops are. That's an argument I can get behind, not just arbitrarily stating that "6-drops are bad, MMK." I like "if your 6-drop doesn't do anything, it's bad" much better. Like, with Grave Titan, all it does it make two small dudes. I mean yeah, it's a fast clock and all, but I like Sigarda, Kodama, and even Thrun better for that. I actually realized this at the last Jupiter event, where I won probably 75% of my games at least with Baneslayer, NOT with my 6's. I think you're exactly right -- 5's are the win conditions for the deck. 6's are what break the game wide open to enable your 5's to go through (Titan + Deed, Titan + Witness, Titan + Qasali, etc). Or it's a backup wincon, like Kokusho looping.

f|i[p]

04-28-2012, 11:26 AM

Congrats on your finish!
Could you post a Gb list that you would use at a future event?

Thanks !

I haven't really decided on a Gb list yet..if ever I do I will make sure there is around 3 liliana in there and the basic stuff... I might put in diabolic intent, as well as try the new creatures from the new set, or persecutor somewhere in there.. but the basic list will be good enough I think.. i will just cut out all the 6 cc cards.. and leave thrun and kodama as finishers...

However I will try the Gbw list still, but less reliant on white... as I think the meta will be more control or rug and mav.. I will put the 3 shroud creatures, the new angel, thrun and kodama...with added swords to plowshare and pridemage as my only white cards.. the rest will be in the sideboard...

@Arianrhod
Being deep into the white splash.. have you ever tried Yosei instead of kokusho .. I have tried him and he locks up most decks and wins games as well...? however.. it doesn't change the fact that it is a slow win con...

Nelis

04-30-2012, 06:04 AM

Grave Titan worked really well for me but I actually never thought about Kokusho, I'll try that out with Fierce Empath for a while. I'm also actually running a Deranged Hermit over a TOP, I missed that one when I posted my list. But now that I think of it I want a third Top.

I'll take out 1 Kitchen Finks, 1 Grave Titan 1 Inquisition of Kozilek for 1 TOP, 1 Kokusho, 1 Fierce Empath. I could also take out the second Inquisition for Dungrove Elder.

I'll keep in my Spritmongers for a while because I like them so far but I will keep Kodama in mind.

My sideboard was this based on my local the metagame analysis:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Extirpate
2 Darkblast
3 Krosan Grip

Predicted metagame: 1x Maverick, 1x Combo Elves, 1x Burn, 2x Merfolk, 1x Zoo, 2x Canadian ********, 2x Stoneblade, 1x (LED) Dredge, 1x unknown deck.

Actual metagame: 1x BUGw Color Control, 2x Canadian ******** , 2x Esper Stone Blade, 1x Hulk Rebirth, 1x Maverick, 1x Burn, 1x Combo Elves, 2x Merfolk, 1x Zoo, 1x Poison Affinity, 1x LED Dredge, 1x W/B Stoneblade, 1x Rock Control

EDit: One more question. Is Kodama's butt not a bit to small? (4 toughness)

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

04-30-2012, 09:52 AM

Dunno about you guys, but I love Qweerios list.

You actually can't lose with Primeval Titan into Treetop Village x2.

At least I don't.

Nelis

04-30-2012, 10:29 AM

And what about all those times you do lose because those damned things come into play tapped when you need them to be 'regular' lands?

TheArchitect

04-30-2012, 10:29 AM

Dunno about you guys, but I love Qweerios list.

You actually can't lose with Primeval Titan into Treetop Village x2.

At least I don't.

Same. I run an almost identical list just -1 garruk, -1 kodama+thrun and +3 Percy and duress instead of innocent blood. The only time he doesn't justify a scoop is when your opponent has StpS AND double waste/port. Also, if you get to untap and fetch a volraths stronghold+phyrexian tower and your opponent already blew wastes on treetops, you have to try really hard to lose.

And what about all those times you do lose because those damned things come into play tapped when you need them to be 'regular' lands?
They are awesome. I win games where I control the board with deeds + other removal and just do 20dmg with treetops. If you are doing just GB, treetops are amazing with prime titan. You should try them.

Kich867

04-30-2012, 10:55 AM

Dunno about you guys, but I love Qweerios list.

You actually can't lose with Primeval Titan into Treetop Village x2.

At least I don't.

I lose often with it against stoneblade. At that point in the game they don't bother wasting bayou's. The play is usually: brainstorm, fetch, draw, swords titan. Waste a treetop.

Either that or it's snapcaster swords > waste treetop. So I spend 6-7 mana for a 3/3 trampling manland who can't swing through a batterskull or anything with a jitte on it.

-- Architect, what removal are you running? I'm running 3 pulses, 3 deeds, 3-4 innocent bloods, and I find I am rarely if ever able to actually do that. My treetops get wasted or trade with mishra's or just get sworded etc.

Star|Scream

04-30-2012, 11:16 AM

It may be win-more, but I've been trying Qweerios's build without titan/treetop + kokusho,empath,recurring nightmare.

Recurring nightmare plus any of our creatures is just LUDAcris. Like sac explorer to get witness to get explorer, replay nightmare to sac explorer to get explorer. Same with finks.

Please try Carpet of Flowers. I run 3 and board out all but 1 explorer against anything with an island. It's funny to see opponents waste their own lands.

Also Kitchen Finks is great against anything with a mountain. Burn is very much winnable if you can land one of these or an ooze.

TheArchitect

04-30-2012, 11:21 AM

-- Architect, what removal are you running? I'm running 3 pulses, 3 deeds, 3-4 innocent bloods, and I find I am rarely if ever able to actually do that. My treetops get wasted or trade with mishra's or just get sworded etc.

I am running 3 pulses, 3 deeds, 2 Darkblasts, 3 lilys, 2-3 Duresses (takes swords) and in the SB: 2 IoKs and Night of soul's betrayal and 3 massacres. So if they double waste, and StpS your primetime you just 3 for 1 them. If they have Jitte or Bskull, you should deal with that before you try to win with prime.

I am not a fan of thrun, I dont know why people still play him. Is he supposed to be good against UWx? He just gets chumped by spirit tokens, snappys, or worse bskull all day. Kodama is good not bad but still nothing compared to prime titan.

Also, I run 3 percys and only play them after I have duressed/IoK/therpy'd all their removal away. I think my win strategy is different from what a lot of you doing. I rape their hand of removal and then drop a fast clock (percy/prime) and if they topdeck a swords, just drop another threat. Many of you are playing things like Thrun or Kodama or even hermit druid to try to blank their removal, on paper it looks like a good idea, but the reality is, besides sigarda, those shrouded creatures just dont win. Sure they dont get removed but a thrun is hardly even worth wasting a StpS on if he didnt have hexproof. Hes smaller than most goyfs. Kodama gets blocked and dies easily and hermit druid is too mana intensive.

I lose often with it against stoneblade. At that point in the game they don't bother wasting bayou's. The play is usually: brainstorm, fetch, draw, swords titan. Waste a treetop.

Either that or it's snapcaster swords > waste treetop. So I spend 6-7 mana for a 3/3 trampling manland who can't swing through a batterskull or anything with a jitte on it.

This is just a general problem with stoneblade. They are a tougher matchup for us. They have basics and do just as scary things with them as we do. AND they they get better card advantage and can answer just about anything we throw at them in some way. If that primetitan was a thrun they could just keep throwing snappys under the bus or just drop a bskull and stabilize. At least with primetitan the best thing they can do is still a 3 for 1.

I dropped phyrexian arena from list a while ago, but I dont think I had lost a game where I stuck that against UW. You win any attrition wars with that card out. It might be worth considering adding it back in.

Richard Cheese

04-30-2012, 12:08 PM

I dislike the lack of Kokusho here, and I feel that if you're using non-green 6-drops, Fierce Empath is a pretty good dude, since it lets you GSZ for them. Shaman actually seems like a perfectly respectable replacement for Qasali in straight GB lists. I've always thought Wickerbough is vastly too expensive for this deck (and that's saying something). I also agree with Kich; I don't like Spiritmonger here. Blade decks are becoming significantly less common in the meta, and that's the only matchup where he might possibly shine. I'd make those two slots either Kodama + Kokusho or Kokusho + Empath. Looping someone out with Nightmare has won me many games, and it's an incredibly efficient wincon. It's worth remembering that Nightmare is immune to enchantment destruction (even Krosan Grip) if you're smart with it. Literally the only way they can get rid of it is by discard or counterspells, and even then you can get it back later with a Witness.

As far as your planned changes -- I took Finks out a while back, and never missed him yet. Actually, I missed him exactly once, but that was a corner case. I've never run Volrath's since the earliest versions of the deck, and I've never even thought about it. If you're running out of gas with this deck, you're doing it wrong. Volrath is like the 8th level "just in case" plan. Totally unnecessary IMO. As far as the discard goes, what does your sideboard look like? Targeted discard + surgicals is pretty much the only out GB has to combo, so you want to make sure you have enough between main and board. If you cut them and have the room to spare, you might want to try out some of RichardCheese's technology -- Dungrove Elder. You have 9 Forest type lands, and it would be pretty good vs RUG. Maverick would probably just chump+mom it all day, but I guess you can't have everything. It's worth a thought, I think, at the least.

Note that the last time I ran this deck, I used a singleton Primeval Titan and Wolf Run to push damage through, but it was more to break the stalemate that always happened with UW than to beat Maverick. Deed pretty much does that on its own.

Star|Scream

04-30-2012, 01:21 PM

Kich867

04-30-2012, 01:22 PM

moseby

04-30-2012, 01:56 PM

I respectfully disagree. If you are dealing with an unknown quantity I would prefer to go T1 explorer, T2 swing, therapy, therapy. At least you know what colour(s) they are playing base on their first land they play. If they don't play a land you will be able to tell what they are playing based on the card they discard.

To those playing recurring nightmare Koku how often have you been able to kill people with repeating it? If so are you running straigh B/G or splashing

TheArchitect

04-30-2012, 02:10 PM

Strategy question:

Game 1 against a blind deck

on the play with a bayou and a fetch, explorer, cabal therapy

Which land do you play? If you fetch, do what do you fetch?

Do you play the veteran turn 1 or wait till turn 2? Do you ever blind therapy?

I would go bayou>blind therapy (brainstorm) on turn one.

Unless your against like RUG or burn, dont drop explorer when you could blind therapy brainstorm. They will often just StpS explorer, or combo out on you.

However, I also run duress so I often go turn 1 duress. Turn 2 therapy>explorer>flashback therapy. All 3 discard hit something this way.

Nelis

04-30-2012, 02:28 PM

TheArchitect

04-30-2012, 02:33 PM

I wouldn't play Veteran explorer turn one, you don't want it sworded.

I'd go forest (maybe Bayou) and do nothing, wait to see what the opponent plays, and next turn go Therapy, Explorer, flashback Therapy.

But maybe go blind and saying Brainstorm is actually better, I'm not sure.

If they have a brainstorm, they are going to blank AT LEAST your first therapy by brainstorming in response. Unless I have nothing to do with 3 lands, and am more worried about them untapping with 3-4 lands, I would do the therapy first turn.

Nelis

04-30-2012, 02:45 PM

But if they decide to Brainstorm then them fetching basics because of Veteran Explorer will shuffle their best cards away. Unless they opt not to search for two basics but that's also good for us.

Besides you have much more information if you wait for their first turn. You could always opt not to sac veteran explorer if you expect it to go wrong based on their first turn play.

No, I definately would not go blind on Brainstorm

Arianrhod

04-30-2012, 03:30 PM

I blind on Brainstorm a fair bit. Blue players have a horrible tendency of keeping mediocre hands like land, brainstorm, card card card card, and it feels really good to punish them. Combo players are even worse with this. My preferred turn 1 is always Top, without question. If I can't do that, I Therapy, and if I can't do either, I'll drop Explorer. The only time this changes is if I have like land, Explorer, Tower, 4-5drop. In that event, I always lead with Explorer, pray, pass turn, and then hopefully Tower, sac, do stupid things. At the same time, keep in mind that as a Therapy deck, scouting is actually pretty important. If you walk around the room a few times between rounds, you'll improve your blind therapies a lot because chances are you'll know what half the room is playing.

RE@Moseby -- I kill with Kokusho probably something like 1/8-1/4 of my games. Nightmare usually gets used a lot more frequently, especially with Witnesses, but the Kokusho kill doesn't always occur because sometimes it's unnecessary -- if they're already dead from something else, there's no reason to show off with it and have them board in graveyard hate. It's still a pretty potent weapon to have in your arsenal, though, and has definitely won me games when nothing else could.

Also, to whoever asked a few pages back, I have run Yosei in the past, but eventually cut him. He was my 3rd six-drop, which felt a little bit much at times. When examining which one to cut at the time, I looked at each very careful. Sun Titan breaks games wide open, and if not answered immediately presents both a rapid clock and a robust defense, while also doing things like Deeding every turn, Witnessing every turn, and so on. Kokusho provides an alternate win if you're locked out behind something weird like Ensnaring Bridge + Karmic Justice, as well as also getting around things like Solitary Confinement, as it doesn't stop life loss, only damage. Yosei can lock down board states indefinitely, but what I quickly discovered was that of these cards, Yosei actually isn't a win condition at all. It's a potent lockdown effect, but you still need something else to go with him to actually win the game, and while he can get you out of a lot of tough spots, it's usually better to run a card in his place that stops you from getting into those spots at all.

Tao

04-30-2012, 04:01 PM

Strategy question:

Game 1 against a blind deck

on the play with a bayou and a fetch, explorer, cabal therapy

Which land do you play? If you fetch, do what do you fetch?

Do you play the veteran turn 1 or wait till turn 2? Do you ever blind therapy?

T1: My line would be play Fetchland, immediately crack it for Forest to get around both Stifle and Wasteland, go.

T2: varies depending on what land and maybe what spell they played and what else is in my hand. But naming Brainstorm with the first Therapy is a very common play even if they do have Mana open and didn't respond. It is a Mind game that favors them but there is not much of an alternative because it is too devastating if they are left with a Brainstorm for the Flashback.

Kich867

04-30-2012, 04:08 PM

T1: My line would be play Fetchland, immediately crack it for Forest to get around both Stifle and Wasteland, go.

T2: varies depending on what land and maybe what spell they played and what else is in my hand. But naming Brainstorm with the first Therapy is a very common play even if they do have Mana open and didn't respond. It is a Mind game that favors them but there is not much of an alternative because it is too devastating if they are left with a Brainstorm for the Flashback.

This would most likely be my play as well, now that I think about it (considering this is what I tend to do anyways). On the flip side, fetching for a swamp and going blind on brainstorm can be pretty powerful.

Star|Scream

04-30-2012, 04:15 PM

Seems to me one turn one blind play has to be better than the others. We really should figure it out.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

04-30-2012, 04:22 PM

Seems to me one turn one blind play has to be better than the others. We really should figure it out.

Forest, go.

Julian23

04-30-2012, 04:36 PM

You really should not be playing Veteran Explorer on turn1 when you've got a Cabal Therapy in hand. Chances are, your opponent will StP it and you're in bad shape.

T1: Bayou, Therapy
T2: Forest, Explorer, Flashback Therapy w/o passing priority.

Win. Even if your Bayou gets wasted.

Nelis

04-30-2012, 05:21 PM

T2: varies depending on what land and maybe what spell they played and what else is in my hand. But naming Brainstorm with the first Therapy is a very common play even if they do have Mana open and didn't respond. It is a Mind game that favors them but there is not much of an alternative because it is too devastating if they are left with a Brainstorm for the Flashback.

Yes, you're right, Brainstorm it is when facing (non merfolk) blue.

Tao

04-30-2012, 06:22 PM

Julian23

04-30-2012, 06:23 PM

Disabling Brainstorm by naming it blindly.

Koby

04-30-2012, 06:25 PM

Disabling Brainstorm by naming it blindly.

Yep, pretty good chance your opponent is playing Brainstorm (65%) , or is playing Maverick (20%). The other 15% you should be able to beat no?

Julian23

04-30-2012, 06:38 PM

When I first heart of this, I was like "Dude, wtf, rly?" but this came from the guy (Michael "Wuaschti" Thiel, recent finalist of GP Turin) who's basically been playing this deck since around 2007, so I figured there might be more merits to it than I thought.

AngryTroll

04-30-2012, 07:07 PM

I know that space is tight, but I'm surprised that Shriekmaw hasn't been discussed for the deck. I searched the thread for mentions of the elemental, but saw zero discussion. The 1B cost is perfect after a Veteran Explorer, and the 4B cost crams a few extra high-cc plays into the removal slots.

The removal spells that compete with Shriekmaw have the advantage of being Instant speed, but that's about it. Against Maverick, RUG, and Stoneblade, the fact that Shriekmaw is a Terror instead of a Doom Blade or Go for the Throat is irrelevant; Shriekmaw always kills Knight of the Reliquary (besides Mother of Runes), which Dismember can't always do. Finally, there's synergy with Volrath's Stronghold.

Am I missing a big detail somewhere?

Koby

04-30-2012, 07:10 PM

Am I missing a big detail somewhere?

I've been tinkering around with Fleshbag marauder, so I'm thinking along the same lines with you on Shriekmaw. I prefer Fleshbag due to its synergy in Sun Titan builds.

Star|Scream

04-30-2012, 09:09 PM

Zand

04-30-2012, 09:43 PM

What do people typically name on a t1 Therapy against Maverick? I've been naming Green Sun's Zenith mostly, it has seemed pretty good so far.

Julian23

04-30-2012, 09:45 PM

Turn1 on GSZ seems fine. Turn2 flashback with Veteran Explorer on StP if possible, I guess.

Nelis

05-01-2012, 03:37 AM

You really should not be playing Veteran Explorer on turn1 when you've got a Cabal Therapy in hand. Chances are, your opponent will StP it and you're in bad shape.

On my local forum someone argued that you could just as well play Veteran Explorer turn one because there's an equal chance of the opponent playing Thoughtseize /Inquisition of Kozilek.

Star|Scream

05-01-2012, 10:22 AM

Malakai

05-01-2012, 10:38 AM

How are people not playing 4 Pernicious Deed in their Deed deck? I feel like a solid half of your matchups come down to the amount of deeds you're able to put on the board.

Justin

05-01-2012, 02:22 PM

I've been OK with three Deeds. Between Top to find them and Eternal Witness (which is a GSZ target) to get one back, it seems to work out pretty well. The list is pretty tight.

Hencules

05-02-2012, 08:16 AM

Several posts ago someone proposed an eldrazi version of the deck. It seemed really strong, but very little response was made. Why?

It did feel like it crushed matchups that were allready good for nicfit. Does anyone know how it fared against other decks?

guelahpapyrus

05-02-2012, 10:01 AM

Hencules

05-02-2012, 01:27 PM

I tested the deck out a little. Didn't seem as great as the OP made it out to be.

It seemed that it was impossible doing anyting without resolving primeval titan.

Fatal

05-02-2012, 01:49 PM

Tao

05-02-2012, 02:52 PM

On my local forum someone argued that you could just as well play Veteran Explorer turn one because there's an equal chance of the opponent playing Thoughtseize /Inquisition of Kozilek.

Thoughtseize/Inquisition are going to take something relevant anyway, like removal, a Liliana, a Deed or a Zenith but their Swords to Plowshares has no good targets except for Explorer. So you don't want to give them a good target which is why "Explorer go" is wrong in the scenario described on the last page. I am undecided between playing a blind Therapy on Brainstorm and passing the turn. So far I have always waited but the arguments for blindly going for Brainstorm are not bad either.

Star|Scream

05-02-2012, 03:13 PM

Thoughtseize/Inquisition are going to take something relevant anyway, like removal, a Liliana, a Deed or a Zenith but their Swords to Plowshares has no good targets except for Explorer. So you don't want to give them a good target which is why "Explorer go" is wrong in the scenario described on the last page. I am undecided between playing a blind Therapy on Brainstorm and passing the turn. So far I have always waited but the arguments for blindly going for Brainstorm are not bad either.

What about:

T1:
Land, pass

If they play a blue fetch,

T2:

Therapy, naming daze
Explorer
Flashback therapy naming other business
Trollface

If they brainstormed in response to either therapy, they have to decide whether to get 2 lands or shuffle away the "goods"

Tao

05-02-2012, 04:26 PM

Daze is far less played than Brainstorm.
On top of that Daze is a lesser problem than Brainstorm. If you name Brainstorm and they have Daze you will see it so you can just wait a turn to play around Daze. On the other hand if you name Daze and they have Brainstorm you will not get much out of the deal. Forcing them to play an early protective Brainstorm is not as good as getting their best card.

Hencules

05-03-2012, 05:48 AM

But resolved is gg for opponent ? Note that it can't be stopped by any kind of removal which Nic Fit have sometimes problem WoG or new UW tool - Terminus and Nic Fit still doesn't have any good wincon. Also why cant do anything ? It can do same as Nic Fit - put deed play some ramp disrupt opponent hand core is the same.

Also it can just win with fast Karn which is just better Jace in this deck.

I think getting repetitive wastelands out disrupts the deck just as well. But maverick is one of the few decks that can do that, an is allready easy for nic fit. Resolving primeval titan allowed for a lot of cool things. I still do think traditional lists are better.

zathe922

05-03-2012, 01:32 PM

Do you guys know of any good maindeckable answer to punishing fire? ooze is not enough, its to easy to play around... or it gets countered. i have been loosing to that card for a while now. Thrun is good against the card however he can't do anything when goyfs enter the battlefield.

Star|Scream

05-03-2012, 02:02 PM

Maëlig

05-03-2012, 02:05 PM

Philipp2293

05-03-2012, 02:10 PM

Kitchen finks

Seriously? They can use the life gained from a persisting Finks to rebuy Fire right away, even without an active Grove.

Star|Scream

05-03-2012, 03:03 PM

Seriously? They can use the life gained from a persisting Finks to rebuy Fire right away, even without an active Grove.

So gaining life is bad against decks with red, now?

zathe922

05-03-2012, 03:29 PM

Decks running Punishing Fire are rarely dedicated burn decks, its just used as removal and kitchen fink doesnt do anything against it.

Star|Scream

05-03-2012, 03:55 PM

Decks running Punishing Fire are rarely dedicated burn decks, its just used as removal and kitchen fink doesnt do anything against it.

I see your point. my bad

Kich867

05-03-2012, 08:00 PM

I've since moved away from Qweerios' list as I found that it has an abysmal stoneblade matchup. Of the 30 or so games I played with it, I only ended up winning 4-5 of them. This was reinforced through tournament play as well with the list.

Essentially, jace would land and then I would be drowned in card advantage--if your opponent is fatesealing you, they're doing it wrong. Nic Fit can't present a fast enough clock for them to even be remotely threatened of losing Jace that early--brainstorm refills their hand for the relevant next turn counter on Maelstrom Pulse. Sometimes it doesn't, and those games go better, until they drop another one.

Thrun is the only thing that gets there in this matchup with that list--between swords and snapcaster mage, we don't play enough relevant threats for them to waste removal on that they can't just sandbag those things or keep them hidden with brainstorms.

So I've went to a list that leans far more heavily on black (so much so GSZ rarely feels relevant anymore but I still keep it to grab my singletons):

//Creatures: 11
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Grave Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze

//Spells: 19
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Duress
2x Hymn to Tourach

//Planeswalkers: 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter

//Artifacts:
3x Sensei's Divining Top

//Lands: 22
2x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
6x Forest
5x Swamp

Things have never felt so good with this deck as they do right here.

Plays like turn 1 duress, turn 2 therapy / explorer / therapy, feel so, so, so good. Or the occasional, turn 1 duress, turn 2 therapy / explorer / therapy / hymn.

I tried percy beforehand, didn't like him. But now with duress and hymn to back him up, he actually provides an extremely brutal scenario. They need to top deck an answer to him. Furthermore, the fact that he only costs 4, flies, and I run three of him, makes him one of the best win cons I've experienced so far.

Previously I ran 2, he got sworded, that was that. But with this list he rarely has to go in unguarded. Grave Titan is also just plainly better than Primeval. He's not Sun Titan, which is unfortunate, but he's at least better than primeval. Running so many lands that just didn't really operate in the first few turns of the game was too difficult against wastelands and just in general for the speed of the deck.

I'm in a position to get the lands to incorporate white into the deck. So I'll likely be doing that soon. I may end up pretty much stealing Arianhod's list, minus moat because fuck that price tag but, I'll work something out. Sigarda is going to be huge.

Arianrhod

05-03-2012, 10:23 PM

Here's what I've been working on -- the red list that I've mentioned a few times. I've been testing it for a while now, and I feel that, while rough, it's at least ready to present.

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Broodmate Dragon
1x Primeval Titan

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Harmonize
3x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scapeshift

4x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Forest
3x Mountain
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Taiga
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

//SB:
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Damnation
1x Deathmark
1x Firespout
1x Flashfires
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Hull Breach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Mind Shatter
1x Scapeshift
1x Tsunami
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Wandering Stream

As I said, a lot of this is rough, but promising. I won't say much about the deck here, but if there are questions and/or advice, I'll happily pursue a dialog.

Also, I had a thought as far as the name issue goes. Explorer is definitely the marquee card of the archetype, but his name isn't exactly inspiring. Now, there is a card from Odyssey that does the same thing Explorer does: New Frontiers. This sounds a lot more like a deck to me, especially since it is technically accurate as far as the deck goes: the deck is in fact a New Frontier for the format, since a lot of the cards we play have never or infrequently see play elsewhere in the format. The only issue that I have with that as a deck name is that it COULD get confused with New Horizons, but that also hasn't been a deck for over a year, so I'm not too worried about it. What do you guys think? Better than Nic Fit, at least?

somethingdotdotdot

05-03-2012, 11:18 PM

@ Arianrhod. I think a singleton Boseiju might be useful. You can grab it with primeval titan and go off without worrying about countermagic. Another thing is whether the singleton nightmare is worth running. You only have 3 ways to try and dig for it without the rectors. It might be better off as a third gsz?

TheArchitect

05-03-2012, 11:55 PM

@Kich:
Your list seems to be moving in the direction mine is. Duress+percy is very strong. I cut Hymns because they almost always just make spellsnare not a competely dead card. That said, they are still really strong card and I can understand wanting to play them.

The only thing I dont like is that you cut Ewit and dryad arbor but still have 4 GSZ. I went down to 3 GSZ and I would still never cut Ewit. Also I still cant justify running grave titan over prime in a manabase that can easily support treetops and volraths strongholds.

Here is the list I have been running for reference:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
3x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Primeval Titan
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze

3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Duress
2x Darkblast

3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Treetop Village

@Arianrhod:
I like the name New Frontiers and I really like that list. Burning wish > scapeshift combo finish seems really good. And the wishboard in general seems like a good idea.

How has harmonized been working? Would you recommend that for other nic fit lists? And why play it over phyrexian arena?

Are 2 maindeck scapeshifts necessary when they can be wished for when you should have 6+ mana available anyways?

Qweerios

05-04-2012, 12:13 AM

I've since moved away from Qweerios' list as I found that it has an abysmal stoneblade matchup. Of the 30 or so games I played with it, I only ended up winning 4-5 of them. This was reinforced through tournament play as well with the list.

That's quite interesting, especially because Stoneblade is the matchup I have tested the deck against the most. I am curious as how you sideboard against Stoneblade and what makes you lose to them so consistently. I have found that resolving a single Garruk, Liliana, Kodama, or Primeval usually seals the game. The only major qualm I ever had with Stoneblade was a T3-4 Jace on an empty board and versions of the deck packing 3-4 copies of Counterspell alongside 3-4 copies of Snapcaster Mage.

Tao

05-04-2012, 12:27 AM

@Arian: That list looks pretty nice. Such an "I win" button is interesting. Since you said that the list is still rough here is what I would think without testing:

- play full amount of GSZ before Harmonize: Not sure why you did this but imo it looks very wrong. With this type of win plan I would think you want Explorer in every game if possible and don't mind two.

- do you need 3 Mountain or could you replace two of them with Stomping Ground? Fetching Mountain with Explorer is nice with an active Valakut but I am not sure how often that happens. On the other hand going from 13 to 15 Green sources this should lead to consirably less Mulligans.

- I think this looks like a list that wants 4 Deed and 4 Tops. Just my feeling.

For the Wishboard: I think you need more room for actual SB cards like Yard hate or Discard. 9 Wish targets should be the maximum.

- One Pulse should be enough as emergency artifact/enchanment(Planeswalker hate, no need for Hull Breach and Creeping Corrosion (Seeds of Innocence).
- No real need for Flashfires. Plains decks are beaten with wishing for Removal or Scapeshift.
- Damnation and Virtues Ruin already cover the Mass Removal. No need for Firespout.
- Chainer's Edict and Deathmark could be one Innocent Blood.

Arianrhod

05-04-2012, 01:29 AM

Thanks for the feedback. To start:

Harmonize was literally because I had two spots that I wasn't sure what to do with, and drawing cards is never a bad thing. Also, since this list runs substantially more land than the usual Explorer deck (25), I wanted something that could refill me around turn 3-4, since I've burned out most of my hand by then. Tao's point about the increased importance of GSZ is definitely relevant, though, and although I feel like I want a few more green creatures for the increased Zenith count, 4 GSZ is probably correct for this version. At least 3, for sure.

The mountains are unnecessary -- good call there. I feel dirty whenever shocklands in legacy are even considered, but it's probably not a bad idea.

As far as the board goes, I usually start with a full 15-slot wishboard, and then narrow it down from there depending on what proves itself and what fails. Good call on Seeds of Innocence -- I always forget that card exists. The main reason I want that in my board honestly is because I'm really tired of losing to Metalworker, and I feel like if they have anything remotely resembling a slow hand, it's going to blow them out. It'll probably still end up getting cut eventually, but it's a good starting spot to test. Chainer's Edict has actually been pretty good for me, since the flashback cost isn't really that bad for this deck. Flashfires is currently in testing just because of how amazing Tsunami has been for me. Odds are very high that it's not going to be staying, at this point.

The maindeck Scapeshifts have been fine. Sometimes I can't find or can't resolve a Burning Wish, and having additional copies to draw into in the maindeck is pretty good. Considering that 7 lands = death, I like finding them regularly.

Boseiju is something I've thought about, but rejected. It comes into play tapped, and doesn't help THAT much of the deck. Also, by the point at which I want to be Scapeshifting, they should have had to blow their Force already, or else they'll be tapped out, or else I've have naturally hit a Scapeshift and BW for Mind Shatter before going off in their face. I'm not too worried about it. And even if they counter Scapeshift, I'm just going to do something else stupid to them.

Nightmare in this deck was never a consideration. Even when I knew I wasn't putting Kokusho in (Valakut does the same thing, essentially, and I didn't want to waste a slot on Empath with my other 6's being GSZable), I knew Nightmare would be run. It's dumb with Broodmate, and since the red list is running 3 Witnesses currently, it's easier to set up that engine. It's a little annoying to find sometimes, since I'm used to having Rectors, but Tops + lots of shuffles do in fact get there.

Also, just a quick note -- Haunting Echoes is a hilarious effective win condition.

Kich867

05-04-2012, 03:23 AM

That's quite interesting, especially because Stoneblade is the matchup I have tested the deck against the most. I am curious as how you sideboard against Stoneblade and what makes you lose to them so consistently. I have found that resolving a single Garruk, Liliana, Kodama, or Primeval usually seals the game. The only major qualm I ever had with Stoneblade was a T3-4 Jace on an empty board and versions of the deck packing 3-4 copies of Counterspell alongside 3-4 copies of Snapcaster Mage.

The list I played against ran something like this counter package:

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Mana Leak

and

4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Swords

A resolved jace almost always resulted in a loss unless I could kill it the next turn. Primeval Titan rarely provided any actual benefit and strictly ended games I had already won. It was always just a means to get them to scoop. I would play him, I would get 1-2 treetops and/or whatever else I hadn't gotten yet, and EOT they would do some combination of Brainstorm > Sword / Sword / Snapcaster Sword or after they brainstorm and fetched, brainstorm again on their turn, then sword him.

Treetops almost never did anything, they would trade with Mishra's Factories or get sworded, or they just simply can't attack into a batterskull after primeval titan is down. Once you give them enough mana, you can't kill Batterskull, and Jace drowns you in card advantage.

The only actual thing your opponent needs to do is drop Jace and brainstorm every turn with him and you should lose, they're not just drawing 2 cards a turn they're perfecting their hand at will. The only relevant creature I had previously in this matchup was Thrun, I tried Kodama for quite awhile but never really got why he was good--batterskull kills him and they still gain 2 life.

Furthermore, Liliana certainly doesn't auto-win the matchup. Jace beats her, cleanly, if Jace and Liliana are both on the field pumping her hurts you a lot more than it hurts him unless you're top decking, in which case you're basically fucked anyways because he's drawing 2 cards a turn. Liliana's sac effect is useful, but only if you can actually keep them on one dude for a long enough period of time.

Garruk can be ok, but again, when Geist of Saint Traft is around protecting him is difficult, but I agree--between the two I'd rather have a Garruk down vs Jace than Liliana.

Here's how most of the games went:
I would ramp up, or he would keep me off my ramp / tops (he burnt forces on turn 1 tops like a boss) which hurt.. Then he'd drop a turn 2-3 Jace, and then I basically lose. Without any card filtering or draw, you simply can't keep up against someone with an eternally perfect hand. Batterskull nullifies Thrun and once you give them enough mana you fundamentally can't kill batterskull without something like a Pulse with Deed already on the table, which is 8 mana.

I don't know how your opponents were using Jace, but if they weren't brainstorming every turn they were doing it wrong. They will find Batterskull, and then Kodama is pretty useless.

Even worse, is when Elspeth hits the table. Then shit pretty much hits the fan because there are virtually no fliers there. Planeswalkers become useless and you can't remove batterskull. Batterskull and Jace win them that matchup. You can rarely even get batterskull with therapy after they fetch it, they brainstorm it away and that's that.

I guess to put it succinctly, if you ramp--they're hitting a turn 2-3 jace against an empty board. You have no other real alternatives because our ramp involves the first 2 turns of our deck, they can let it happen because they run enough basics to benefit from it, and now jace is against an empty board, he just replaced himself with a brainstorm, and the likelihood that your opponent doesn't have a counter in their hand for Maelstrom Pulse is frighteningly low.

This is why I added discard to the deck, almost exclusively for this reason. Because I now have multiple lines of play--I can either completely destroy their hand, utterly and completely, or I can just ramp and then follow it up with a discard + pulse clean up crew. The match up still doesn't even feel in my favor yet though. Snapcaster Mage, Elspeth, Jace, Batterskull, and Brainstorm are quite the brick wall. The games always go long unless I just blow his hand out, one point reaching moments where he was snapping back force of wills to hard counter my late-game tops. Oh, Geist is pretty brutal too. He's uniquely effective at killing planeswalkers.

Nelis

05-04-2012, 09:13 AM

Thoughtseize/Inquisition are going to take something relevant anyway, like removal, a Liliana, a Deed or a Zenith but their Swords to Plowshares has no good targets except for Explorer. So you don't want to give them a good target which is why "Explorer go" is wrong in the scenario described on the last page.

If their discard is not going for an explorer anyway but something relevant then in a roundabout way you confirm their arguments against not playing Explorer turn one. Basically it was that Explorer is the 'nitro' of the deck but not an essential necessity (like certain cards in combo decks for instance). So if it's sworded or countered it's not the end of the world.

Literal translation from dutch: "If the Explorer trades with STP, fine, no harm done. You just adjust your gameplan a bit. And should explorer trade with Fow then you have value and is every discard spell you play thereafter even more crippling."

And an additional argument was that an opponent would save the removal for a 'real' threat anyway.

zalachan

05-04-2012, 09:20 AM

@Kich867- you should really try the red splash versions. Punishing Fire is the best card against Stoneblade by a long shot. It kills Brainstorming Jaces, Germs, tokens trying to grab equips, tokens defending planeswalkers, Snapcasters jumping out of nowhere..
I feel your beef with Kodama and Prime as i feel they are subpar compared to Grave Titan and Broodmate Dragon (haven't tried Percy so idk about that).
Stoneblade WILL have Swords, but if they want to use two just to kill two dragons, that's fine by me. Also- SDT has to resolve, its kinda pseudo Jace for us. Use discard to fish for counters. After SB the card to watch for is Surgical.

Arianrhod

05-04-2012, 10:17 AM

Valakut is also a way to deal with Jace, kind of. I really feel that the increased stability of the pure GB version's land base, while nice, isn't worth failing to splash. Each splash color grants a backup toolbox, giving increased flexibility and strength. Besides that, the splash creatures turned on by those colors are often dramatically more powerful than what straight GB offers. I'm sure Qweerios is going to come out of the woodwork and yell at me, but IMO, there's no reason not to splash. Any splash you do will give you an increased ease of dealing with Jace, at the very least. Straight GB really only has Pulse, Thrun, and Kodama to deal with it. Thrun is really small by legacy standards, and Kodama can push a bit of damage through but will usually die in the attempt. Pulse really just isn't good enough by itself.

Disclaimer: I haven't gotten a blue list to actually work yet. That's next on my to-do list after I finish my red version. It's irritating because a lot of the things that BUG wants to do seem in direct opposition to what Explorer wants to do. There's obviously going to be Jaces of our own, which seems pretty good. Fact or Fiction in some quantity is probably a good idea too. Beyond that, though, I haven't really figured it out yet.

Greenpoe

05-04-2012, 10:20 AM

Grave Titan works wonders vs. Jace, too. Pulse, Thrun, Grave Titan and Kodoma give you plenty of answers to Jace

Qweerios

05-04-2012, 01:20 PM

Thank you for the detailed matchup analysis Kich. It seems like you practiced against a lot of classic Stoneblade lists. However, I can't help but notice that you made no mention to how you sideboard. To answer your question on Jace, yes, my opponents do brainstorm extensively.

Here is how I consistently beat Stoneblade and Esperblade. My list:

Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Primeval Titan

Instant/Sorcery (15)
1 Darkblast
3 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact/Enchantment (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (6)
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Damnation
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Obstinate Baloth

G1 against Stone and Esper can be difficult if Jace and Bob go unanswered for too long, it degenerates very fast. There isn't that many tools mainboard to deal with Jace preemptively (Pulsing a Jace is a losing deal to begin with). G2 is nearly impossible to lose. I usually side in 3 TS, 3 Duress for 3 Bloods, 3 Deeds.

-Don't rush the Veteramp without landing a bomb the same turn and another one the turn after. This is how you bait counterspells when you have no spot discard.
-Don't be afraid to play an Explorer without a sac outlet if you can manage your first 4 land drops without him. Let him beat, and carefully plan your mana for the next turns, don't worry if he gets sent plowing.
-Don't GSZ for an Explorer unless you have something like double Therapy + a win-con in hand. By using GSZ to get an explorer out you are losing card quality, advantage, and board position. Not a good trade for this matchup.
-Therapy for Stoneforge blindly when your opponent has 1-2 lands and Jace when your opponent has 2-3. If you do land an early double therapy via Explorer, name brainstorm first and get rid of 1) Jace, and 2) SFM.
-Snapcasters in this matchup are nearly worthless for your opponent unless he packs Counterspell somewhere in his 75.
-Don't activate Treetops when your opponent has 4+ cards in his hand or isn't tapped out. A Treetop on the board usually delays Jace by a few turns.
-Keep them off SFM and Jace and they have no win-cons. If you manage to destroy the Batterskull, you have half of the deck already beat.
-Landing a single Titan will completely deplete their options and leave you way ahead. If they deal with it so easely, then you forgot to mention that they had a Jace on the field for 5+ turns and they are just playing with their food at this point.

Kich867

05-04-2012, 02:20 PM

With your list, I boarded in duresses and tsunami's. Tsunami's never really resolved, duresses helped immensely though.

With my current list, I feel the matchup has moved from unfavorable to even.

I would disagree with a few assessments: your opponent has no reason to plow Veteran Explorer, it just gives them more mana to play with counters and batterskull shenanigans. The only card they actually have to plow is Primeval Titan, and maybe Wickerbough Elder. Kodama can be chumped by batterskull or some combination of a factory and a snapcaster mage.

My experience is they just sit back and hang out. They keep brainstorms to avoid therapies, then they can just drop him next turn. Killing batterskull is notoriously difficult.

I mean, you kind of stated why I feel my revisions provide a better stoneblade matchup overall. Your response to their deck is to remove poor creature kill options and unnecessary sweepers for more discard. Innocent Blood never really did much for me to begin with, I may drop Hymn's to put 2 back in as another way to kill percy, but I still haven't run into that issue yet.

Isaac

05-05-2012, 02:51 AM

I have been toying with this for a bit now and I was wanting to get some feedback on a possible 1 or 2 slotting haunting echoes in the main. With hymm Lilly and all of are removal this would be the nut high and gaurntee are victory.

jobdevries

05-05-2012, 07:04 AM

Hey, an update to my previous list:

Creatures (16):
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Protean Hulk
1x Spike Weaver
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

Spells(17):
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Intent
2x Duress

Artifacts and Enchantments (4):
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers (2):
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (21):
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Bayou
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bojuka Bog

// Sideboard
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Peacekeeper
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle

HPB_Eggo

05-05-2012, 11:54 AM

Out of interest, why the Grave Titan over a second Sun Titan? I was always under the impression that recurring Deed while swinging was a stronger finisher than making a couple zombies.

jobdevries

05-05-2012, 01:02 PM

@Eggo:
The reason why I like this deck so much, is because it can get the best possible card at any time versus your opponent. A different titan for a different situation. Although Sun Titan is really powerful in recurring a deed/witness, sometimes (at least in my opinion) you really need those extra blockers/attackers to put some pressure. Even if Grave Titan gets removed, you still keep the tokens. A second reason is that it's a bit harder to cast Sun Titan than Grave Titan, since it costs WW (BB is easier to get, especially with Phyrexian Tower and such), so I didn't feel like playing 2 Sun Titans.

Kich867

05-05-2012, 02:33 PM

Got a box of AVR for 10$ (go store credit!), found a sigarda in there ^_^!! So now I just need to grab a scrublands and a savannah and a few other things for the white splash and I'm set.

jobdevries

05-05-2012, 02:38 PM

Nice! I actually bought a Sigarda in advance, just to be sure :D

Star|Scream

05-05-2012, 05:35 PM

jobdevries

05-05-2012, 07:19 PM

I never played sensei's divining top in the first place.. I don't think this deck needs it, since you are already able to search your deck for the appropriate card using GSZ, diabolic intent et cetera (and being able to retrieve them, using eternal witness, or GSZ into eternal witness...).

Justin

05-05-2012, 11:41 PM

I think if you tested Top you would change your mind. Most people who play this deck find it very useful to run a couple. It helps you find the spells you need to win, and of course, plays really well with fetchlands.

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 04:44 AM

Let's assume I would put top in 3-4x, what would you take out? Just out of interest, because I feel like my decklist is working very neat at the moment. But I could test it out I suppose.

HPB_Eggo

05-06-2012, 09:05 AM

At least IMO, I would try cutting one StP, one Diabolic Intent, and the Spike Weaver for three tops, or the first twp for two tops. I think you will find you want to leave them there.

Arianrhod

05-06-2012, 11:02 AM

I agree with this. I had 2 Tops in a long time ago, and they never did anything for me so I cut them. A few months later I realized that they're actually really important in smoothing out the early draws, since we don't have Brainstorm (well, most of us). I upped the number to 3 this time around, and they've been absolutely amazing. I'd second Eggo's cuts -- while it's true that Intent makes your list a bit more stable (assuming you have creatures to feed it), I feel that Top + Intent would actually be ridiculous. Try it and see what you think for yourself, though.

HPB_Eggo

05-06-2012, 11:25 AM

Thinking about it, I would probably take out the Weaver before the Intent for two tops. Shuffle effects are always better with a top around.

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 11:49 AM

If I would play top, I'd play at least 3 I think. Thinking about it, spike weaver mostly isn't a winning card (although he does save me now and then). Being able to actually manipulate the top cards, makes you probably not even need the spike weaver to give you some extra turns. Besides, Nic Fit is already fairly good against aggro (pernicious deed). I'll try to fit 3 in, and see how it works! Thanks for your help.

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 11:54 AM

Think I might cut 1 spike weaver, 1 duress, and 1 abyssal persecutor. I'm curious to see the results.

Kich867

05-06-2012, 12:09 PM

Think I might cut 1 spike weaver, 1 duress, and 1 abyssal persecutor. I'm curious to see the results.

There is an edit button.

But in regards to SDT, you really should run it. From everyone I play, the card they fear the most in my deck is Sensei's Divining Top, with the amount of shuffle effects we have--if we need to find something, we can find it.

Diabolic Intent works here too, for sure, but we only really have a handful of creatures we don't mind saccing.

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 12:25 PM

Kich867

05-06-2012, 12:32 PM

IMO there's enough I don't mind saccing to Diabolic Intent: veteran explorer, eternal witness (and then reuse her ability), zombie tokens, protean hulk, dryad arbor). Is that the reason you guys aren't playing any diabolic intents? Because it really feels like a solid card to me. Being able to sac your veteran on turn 2 to get any card in your deck seems very good to me. In that way you can spend the mana you're ramping ;).

It's an option that has been discussed, but I've so far never really needed a specific tutor like that. I tend to prefer to sac my early explorers to cabal therapies or phyrexian towers.

Star|Scream

05-06-2012, 02:40 PM

IMO there's enough I don't mind saccing to Diabolic Intent: veteran explorer, eternal witness (and then reuse her ability), zombie tokens, protean hulk, dryad arbor). Is that the reason you guys aren't playing any diabolic intents? Because it really feels like a solid card to me. Being able to sac your veteran on turn 2 to get any card in your deck seems very good to me. In that way you can spend the mana you're ramping ;).

I've been trying your list, only modified. I have a single Maelstrom pulse (could be vindicate, but I don't own any) as an intent target. That seems to be my only out against jace (except maybe a sigarda). Is that why you have needles in the sb?

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 02:49 PM

Kich867

05-06-2012, 02:51 PM

Indeed it is, Star|Screa. Might be a good idea to put in a single pulse.
I'm not sure about the tops (but needs a lot more testing). I don't like the way the deck slows down a lot because of it, I like to play it more 'aggressive'.

Edit: Star, how does the deck work out for you?

A turn 1 top doesn't actually slow the deck down much, after you ramp you need to be finding answers, top helps you do that.

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 02:55 PM

It did feel slow to me, since you want to keep 1 mana open for the top itself. And I'd rather play a cabal/veteran turn 1.

Star|Scream

05-06-2012, 03:20 PM

Job:
Well I just had someone rage quit on MWS after GSZ a sigarda. He was playing BWG stoneblade and had goyf with a sofw&P out, 2 birds, and 2 sfm. I diabolic intented a zombie token to pull out a deed and popped for 3.

Edit:

I'm on the fence about the Hulk? Is there a combo I'm missing? I feel like if we have 7 available (or 8 for gsz) , that means we have 6 or 5 available for our other finishers.

Fropper

05-06-2012, 03:38 PM

Sigarda is just insane, I had my fair share of Rage quits myself since I am testing with her

jobdevries

05-06-2012, 04:16 PM

@Star|Scream: Sun Titan and Grave Titan are not GSZ-able, and a while ago there wasn't a big green creature in my deck to search for. That's why I put Hulk in, which can tutor all the biggies for you (and bringing a dryad arbor with it, since it's cmc = 0). And often when both players were in topdeck mode (which happens a lot with this deck), a GSZ/hulk meant a win for me (in response to removal I could sac it with phyrexian tower, getting another threat). Now there's Sigarda... its value goes down, so it might be replacable.

Arianrhod

05-06-2012, 05:15 PM

Why not Fierce Empath, then, to make Sun/Grave GSZ-able?

Also, requisite questioning of why Grave Titan over Kokusho -- especially for your list, with the Intents....you can assemble Kokusho/Nightmare fairly easily, and that's vastly more powerful than anything Grave Titan is going to do.

ryn ball_2

05-06-2012, 11:42 PM

i've been testing this deck (i'm a junk player so transmuting my junk deck to nic fit is quite easy) BGw color is my choice, dont get me wrong but i drop sun and grave titan to my list reason being is plenty of games i used to play in mws i seldom draw a titan and some of my games it sucks when i saw titan(s) in my opening hand w/ 1-2 hands w/ spells capable of playing it in turn 3, so my current creature line up are:
1 dryad arbor
1 sigarda
1 kitchen finks
1 qasali pridemage
1 kodama of the north tree
2 thrun the last troll
2 eternal witness
2 scavenging ooze
4 veteran explorer
Sigarda is totally worth an addition to this deck, a 5/5 hexproof flyer w/ anti-annilhator is really no joke, when i have 6 lands in play w/ a gsz from that point i will gsz'ed a sigarda right away.
i have 1-2 flexible slots in my deck i'm planing to make -1 thrun, +1 diabolic intent or 3 oozes, -1 thrun.

btw here's my list:
1 dryad arbor
1 sigarda
1 kitchen finks
1 qasali pridemage
1 kodama of the north tree
2 thrun the last troll
2 eternal witness
2 scavenging ooze
4 veteran explorer

4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
4 green sun's zenith
3 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares

3 pernicious deed

2 liliana of the veil

3 sensei's divining top

3 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold

comments are welcome :)

jobdevries

05-07-2012, 02:19 AM

Thanks for the suggestions arianrhod, I don't know why I never thought of Fierce Empath. Also, with Fierce Empath in, Kokusho seems like a fine replacement for Abyssal Persecutor. Can't say goodbye to Grave Titan, so now I'm running:

- spike weaver, protean hulk
+ kokusho, fierce empath

I'm going to experiment with the tops later, got a tourney this saturday, and won't be able to get some tops before then.

1337erhosen

05-07-2012, 05:33 AM

It did feel slow to me, since you want to keep 1 mana open for the top itself. And I'd rather play a cabal/veteran turn 1.

Tops have been nothing but awesome for me in testing, and I disagree about it taking away other turn 1 plays. Most times you drop the top as late as possible, as it is only good when you have excess mana available.

I think you're playing the deck wrong if you're always trying to land Explorer or Cabal Therapy on turn 1. Game 1 you will have little to no idea what to name with Therapy until turns 2 or 3, when you can see how their board has developed and evaluated the most threatening card they could have. I also think that Explorer is better saved until turn 2 when you have a way to immediately sacrifice him, avoiding StP. Obviously these things vary by match-up, but in general this is how I see you wanting to curve out.

I will concede that Top does slow you down if you don't have quick mana development, but the card selection provided by aggressively using shuffle effects is definitely worth the mana. If you make it past turn 6 with a Top online, you will always outclass your opponent with card quality. It even helps smooth awkward draws and almost guarantees you hit all your land drops even without Explorer.

This deck is kind of like a CounterTop control varient, where we play specific answers and Top helps us find them when we need them. A great example of this is Cabal Therapy, because while it's exactly what we want early in the game, it's often a terrible topdeck. I'd rather see 6 cards with a shuffle looking for a Maestrom Pulse to answer Jace than the one card I draw per turn. Top especially shines in the Control match, as you need a way to match the card selection they have in Brainstorm. You can't afford to be drawing blanks like turn 15 Veteran Explorers against cards like Jace and Batterskull.

Obviously what you cut for them and how many you run are personal preference numbers, but I play three because I have never lacked a shuffle effect to get rid of the excess copy.

zalachan

05-07-2012, 06:01 AM

Well even excess copies can be useful. You can discard them to Liliana, recast them after you deed with Explorer on table, or just throw the redundant copy on the table, just in case you want to draw with Top and shuffle on the same turn.

jobdevries

05-07-2012, 07:04 AM

1337erhosen, thanks a lot for your explanation. I'm just not used to top yet, I don't find it an easy card to play (the deck has a lot of options already, top increases them even more).

In regards to the turn 1 cabal: I was referring to game 2/3, although I do play veteran turn 1. I can mostly get a second veteran easily enough, and I don't mind them 'wasting' a StP on a veteran.

Arianrhod

05-07-2012, 09:44 AM

Are you going to Jupiter Games this weekend, Job, out of curiosity (if so, I'll be there as well, although my Tops are all in use so I can't loan them to you).

While I don't agree necessarily with everything that 1337erhosen posted, I do wholeheartedly concur that Top is essentially our Brainstorm, and it should be treated with according amounts of respect.

So, what does everyone think of the list that made the finals at SCG Providence?

jobdevries

05-07-2012, 09:48 AM

@ Arianrhod: No, I actually live in the Netherlands, so. :) Might be I can loan them from a friend, but I'd rather play with a deck familiar to me for now.

HPB_Eggo

05-07-2012, 10:37 AM

So, what does everyone think of the list that made the finals at SCG Providence?

Several things...

First off, I am surprised there were not more Nic Fit lists up at the top. Then again, I was fairly surprised at just about all the winners for the event. Goblins was the main exception, but I also expected there to be more of those...

Anyways. The list shows that Birthing Pod is not bad. Probably best in a more aggressive list.

No Sigarda surprised me a lot. Not a single list in the top 16 ran Sigarda, a card I expected to more or less stomp slower decks.

The last thing worth considering is Strangleroot Geist. It is definitely a good card. Swings in when you need it to, and chimpanzee better than Finks. I would expect it to be worthwhile to test them in that spot, if you run Finks.

Beyond that, looks like a standard Birthing Pod list.

Arianrhod

05-07-2012, 10:53 AM

It's worth noting that, to my knowledge, this is the first Birthing Pod list that has succeeded in the States. No Sigarda surprised me as well, but then upon retrospect, I concluded that the list is entirely focused on its Titans -- you don't want a 5-drop that you won't Pod out of (ignoring the fact that Sigarda is probably as powerful as a Titan...or at the very least probably more likely to win you the game).

I continue to not be surprised at the lack of NF (which I will abbreviate as I will continue pushing New Frontiers as a better name for the deck). It's not a popular deck, even if it's a good one. It takes a lot of weird cards to build, some of which are actually pretty irritating to track down, and it's a hard deck to learn to play. Couple that with its complete disregard for traditional legacy rules of what's playable and what isn't, and it's hardly surprising that more people don't play it. Also, it doesn't run Brainstorm, and the Northeast is a NOTORIOUSLY blue-favored region.

Goblins didn't have a larger presence than usual, unless there were a lot of them at the middling/lower tables. Jim Davis and Nick Patnode are both stone-cold masters with the little red men, and play Goblins almost exclusively. I'm not surprised to see Patnode top 4, and I don't put that on Goblins being good again or not -- that's just Patnode being good with his deck.

I do agree, though, that Birthing Pod seems much, much more aggressive than almost any other variety of this archetype. I'm not sure that being more aggressive is actually worth it or not, but there it is. One of the main things that I don't like about Pod is that it feels like you have to play subpar cards in order to make Pod fire effectively. Reveillark and Bone Shredder both feel awful to me, and while Finks is better in a Pod list, it still feels a little weak. I'm not a fan of Strangleroot, but I think that it's probably fine in a Birthing Pod list. Also, only one Eternal Witness? I dunno. The whole list just feels distinctly -eh- to me. Like, it doesn't even feel like it represents the best list Birthing Pod can muster, let alone the best list for the archetype.

HPB_Eggo

05-07-2012, 11:11 AM

Not to mention 2 Recurring Nightmare, when he has a very reliable method for tutoring into one withe Rector/Pod.

Oh, and his sideboard looks pretty terrible. Maybe it was specific to the tournament, but it doesn't seem like it would work well for a normal meta.

As for Goblins, I expect Cavern to make them playable again. Hopefully it won"t speed up the format too much or we'll be out of business as a good archetype.

Arianrhod

05-07-2012, 11:24 AM

I dunno about that. I'm of the opinion that this archetype can literally be built however the meta demands. I think that if the meta speeds up, we can rebuild to match it.

I don't disagree that Goblins should make a resurgence, but what I meant is that Patnode and Davis playing goblins and playing them well doesn't translate to a resurgence. That's just those two guys doing what those two do.

I agree RE his sideboard. Feels like junk to me, but I mean I guess it worked out for him. What's everyone's thoughts on Ichneumon Druid as opposed to Gaddock Teeg? I like the idea of making GSZ able to get combo hate, but I feel like Teeg hurts us a little too much.

Snapback

05-07-2012, 11:27 AM

Teeg did shut off the Choke in his opponent's hand one of the games I watched.

Star|Scream

05-07-2012, 12:05 PM

Teeg did shut off the Choke in his opponent's hand one of the games I watched.

Did you mean a different card than Choke?

Arianrhod

05-07-2012, 01:26 PM

Pretty sure he means Submerge. And I'd rather my opponents' Submerges are online than my Tsunamis, walkers, Pods, or whatever the list happens to be running be offline. As effective as Submerge is, our cards are better.

Goddik

05-07-2012, 05:43 PM

Can someone explain to me why this deck doesnt run brainstorm and Jace?

Julian23

05-07-2012, 05:52 PM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/20091600.jpg

Goddik

05-07-2012, 06:17 PM

ok, that one made me laugh :). Seriously though, if we can play Team America with Hymn and Jace in the same deck, why not the deck of infinite mana ramp and no colorless lands. is it tested knowledge? Just seems like him and brainstorm would be insane in the deck.

Tao

05-07-2012, 06:53 PM

Not bad, 3rd SCG Top8 in a row and lots of other finishes, too. DtB forum we are coming back. The list looks decent. I am currently back to BG (I won't argue on versions anymore lol) but I can understand why he plays 2 Recurring Nightmare. I also run 2 atm because switching Explorers, Finks and Witnesses back and forth is imba - even though I don't run all those Birthing Pod targets or Strangleroot Geists to go completely nuts. Sun Titan, Bone Shredder, Reveillark, Acidic Slime can all be pretty nasty with Nightmare.

Being able to tutor for it with Pod doesn't make it so he only wants one Nightmare because if he searches Rector with Pod he already has the Pod engine going. So the "get Deed" part (or "get Choke" / "get Wheel" post board) on Rector seems more important than the "get Nightmare" part. Not that isn't a great target when you don't need Deed. I'd say Pod and Nightmare are two seperate engines that happen to have extreme synergy with each other if that makes sense.

Arianrhod

05-07-2012, 06:54 PM

It is, actually. The problem that the blue lists encounter is that they tend to be much less threat-dense than other splashes -- they can literally bury opponents in card advantage, but that actually isn't enough to win the game effectively. I'm working on a blue splash list currently, since I want to eventually have a list for each splash. But there's no question that the blue list has given me far and away more trouble from a design standpoint than either of the other two.

Snapback

05-07-2012, 07:04 PM

Did you mean a different card than Choke?

Brain fart. Submerge.

Goddik

05-07-2012, 07:17 PM

Tnx for the feedback guys

Psydonome

05-08-2012, 04:31 AM

Not bad, 3rd SCG Top8 in a row and lots of other finishes, too. DtB forum we are coming back.

There are many tournaments that http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy didn´t considered. Tournaments like http://www.is-magic.de/ 22.04.2012 - NicFit NO / Punishing Fire Build first place - 90 players - and another G/B/W list Top 20. 05.03.2012 nearly the same.
http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/siegerdecks.htm is another big german tournament outside TheCouncil, but they don´t post enough decklists on they own side.
And last http://magic.zu-den-vier-winden.de/turniere.shtml but they stop posting decklists at the beginning of this year.
Not forgotten the tournament in Maintal near Frankfurt on April this year but i can´t find the link for decklists or tournament analysis. No NicFit Top 20 but overall 8-10 decks.

Tao

05-08-2012, 11:54 AM

One card that I have started liking in the Primeval Titan list is a singleton Life from the Loam (I currently have 2 Treetops, 1 Wasteland, 1 Stronghold as value lands). Loam is pretty nice with Fetchland to make sure you hit your Land drops when you have to. In case they try to screw you out of the game with Wasteland, Stifle or Sinkhole shenanigans it is even insane. Later it is very good with Top. Giving you 2-3 Shuffle effects with Wasteland and the option to dredge away 3x crap makes it pretty easy to find whatever you need.

Philipp2293

05-08-2012, 04:29 PM

What is your current list Tao?

I'm currently absent from playing Nic Fit since I'm alternating between Maverick and UW variants, but I guess I'll fall back to Nic Fit sooner or later.

Tao

05-09-2012, 05:15 PM

I am still changing it a lot so I don't have anything special. Plus I legitimately have no clue what is better and what is worse with this deck. I think the lists on TCdecks are a good starting point.

muscleb

05-09-2012, 05:52 PM

Does anyone have some good experience with some sort of board plan against blue control decks? My meta is something like a lot of aggro, a little bit of combo and some blue decks with sweepers and jace. I play GB and I have no problems with the aggro decks and I accept my bad matchup against combo, but I think it should be possible to come up with a plan against blue control.
I understand that Sigarda is a very potent threat against control, but all the aggro decks are backed by manadenial, so I really really don't like splashing white.

Any thoughts or experience with these:
Choke/Tsunami
Garruk(prerry much any one)
Vexing shusher/city of solitude
Pithing needle on jace
Loam/crucible+wasteland
Shroud guys

We must stand united and fight jace!

Greenpoe

05-09-2012, 06:00 PM

Since you're running GB, you could run Hymn to help your control and combo MU's.

AngryTroll

05-09-2012, 06:47 PM

Does anyone have some good experience with some sort of board plan against blue control decks? My meta is something like a lot of aggro, a little bit of combo and some blue decks with sweepers and jace. I play GB and I have no problems with the aggro decks and I accept my bad matchup against combo, but I think it should be possible to come up with a plan against blue control.
I understand that Sigarda is a very potent threat against control, but all the aggro decks are backed by manadenial, so I really really don't like splashing white.

I understand that Kodama of the North Tree's primary role is killing Jaces. I also like a Gigapede or two to help against Control, but it depends on if you have room in your sideboard for them.

HPB_Eggo

05-09-2012, 09:49 PM

Hymn is a solid idea. Choke is also much better than Tsunami, and is not entirely dead against many forms of combo.

Star|Scream

05-09-2012, 10:38 PM

Carpet of flowers helps to accelerate you while keeping them off an early jace. I usually side out 3 explorers for 3 carpets.

1337erhosen

05-09-2012, 10:43 PM

Best things for me against control have been targeted discard, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Curse of Death's Hold if they're running Lingering Souls, and Haunting Echoes. Echoes is nuts. If you cast it past turn 10 and they don't counter it, you just win.

HPB_Eggo

05-10-2012, 03:18 PM

Also, a SB Karn Liberated works wonders in long matches against control. If you manage to resolve him and activate his abilities a few times you win the game practically guaranteed.

Largely dead against combo, though. If you've lasted long enough to play him, you've probably already won.

OneWingedAngel

05-10-2012, 04:02 PM

+1 to Star|Scream

Carpet is nuts against Blue tempo decks. No sure about the others but Thrun has been amazing against Blue control decks. Most of my wins against Blue control variants came from an unanswered Thrun. He's easier to cast but the downside is that he doesn't have evasion but can hold the fort very well if you are on the defense.

Tight plays should help and be very critical when using your therapies. You'd want to get more mileage out of them by 2 for 1ing your opponents most of the time. Save your pulses for the Walkers if you can since they are the only ones that your deeds cannot answer.

honz

05-10-2012, 07:52 PM

Carpet of flowers is amazing, I used to run it in enchantress. It seems really good against thresh decks packing dazes and spell pierces.

If ever there was a deck that could abuse the hell out of birthing pod, this is it. A long time ago (circa page 7 of this thread) i was having some decent results with birthing pod but mental misstep was > this deck and i stopped playing magic for a while. I decided to play a tournament a couple weeks ago (pleasantly surprised that misstep got banned) and i took the following list:

3 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
3 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
3 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
1 phyrexian tower (never cut this)
1 dryad arbor

4 cabal therapy
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 swords to plowshares
2 maelstrom pulse
1 pernicious deed
1 garruk, primal hunter

4 green suns zenith
2 recurring nightmare
2 birthing pod

4 veteran explorer
1 birds of paradise
2 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
2 kitchen finks
1 harmonic sliver
1 boneshredder
1 thrun, the last troll
1 academy rector
1 shriekmaw
1 deranged hermit
1 reveilark
1 sun titan

sb:
2 thoughtsieze
2 pernicious deed
2 diabolic edict
2 krosan grip
2 choke
1 aven mindcensor
1 loaming shaman
1 scavanging ooze
1 cold-eye selkie
1 gaddock teeg

ended up 4-2 beating goblins, mono white (death and taxes), UR delver, & reanimator; lost to MUD and UGr tempo thresh. My loss to MUD was more of a loss to luck; game 1 he dropped hellkite turn 2, game 2 he dropped lightning greaves turn 1, forgemaster turn 2 (ate a stp), forgemaster turn 3 (ate an edict), and forgemaster turn 4 (turned into blightsteel). Some days you just cant win. UGr tempo thresh just seems to be a horrible matchup. Daze / spell pierce are great against mana hungry decks like this and stifle hits half the cards we run.

Some thoughts on individual cards:
Birds of paradise - this was garbage, i took it out as soon as i got home
Finks - i ran 2 in the main expecting alot of delver burn. I would prob run 1 main 1 in SB. Against aggro type decks, i would rather have removal than lifegain/2 chump blockers. Against non-aggro decks, the 4 life really isnt going to do much. It is nice to have a sacrafice for nightmare/pod that doesn't really die
Thrun - he was magical. He singlehandedly got me wins against thresh and delver. Many decks just don't have an answer for thrun
Deranged hermit - he's competing against acidic slime for this slot at 5cc. Harmonic sliver (or wickerbough elder) does the same thing as slime, and better (sliver is cheaper, elder is fatter). Hermit is great for killing plainswalkers, and generates fodder for nightmare/pod. He also combos nicely with witness/nightmare/reveilark. Until i find something better at 5cc, hes my man.
Garruk - he is only good when you have critters out to protect him. If you have critters out, you want to see nightmare/pod . Garruk only seems useful against heavy control decks, which appear to be out of style in legacy right now.
Maelstrom pulse - the versatility and ability to 2 for 1 is just hard to get rid of. the only cards that even comes close are necrotic sliver or deed which take more mana in a deck that wants mana to be playing creatures and advancing its board.
Birthing pod - I only saw it 4 times. 2 of those times it won me the game, once i was stuck on 2 mana and couldn't play much of anything, and the last time i drew it while at 5 life with nothing on the board. If you have the mana and the time to get it going, you will win, but that's a big if.

Thoughts? Can anyone convince me Garruk is any good? Whats the plan against tempo thresh, it seems kinda hopeless? Ooze is nice and all, but i really want something better/different at 2cc, is there anything good? Alot of people run grave titan, but i cant see him being better than sun titan, am i missing something?

Star|Scream

05-10-2012, 10:04 PM

Just ultimate'd Liliana on myself to sac 3 lands to feed a KOTR for lethal

:really:

Tao

05-11-2012, 02:59 AM

@honz: A similar list to your has just finished 2nd out of 247 players.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8252&iddeck=60186

jobdevries

05-11-2012, 06:29 AM

@honz: Why no Sigarda? It's one of the best 5cmc creatures there is at the moment, in my opinion.

hyperchord24

05-11-2012, 08:46 AM

I think because people aer afraid to run anything that costs more than 4.

HPB_Eggo

05-11-2012, 08:48 AM

@honz: Why no Sigarda? It's one of the best 5cmc creatures there is at the moment, in my opinion.

This was my first thought when you were talking about 5cc creatures. Think of her like Thrum, but bigger, with evasion, and harder to remove in many cases.

jobdevries

05-11-2012, 08:56 AM

@hyperchord: Isn't that what this deck is all about? Casting spells with a high cmc with a ridiculous amount of mana? 5 ain't that much, and she's easily tutored with GSZ..

Blue

05-11-2012, 09:38 AM

Has anyone tried making a list that revolves around Academy Rector? You could use enchantments like Form of the Dragon, Decree of Silence, or even Eldrazi Conscription. Thoughts?

Star|Scream

05-11-2012, 10:07 AM

I think because people aer afraid to run anything that costs more than 4.

Huh?

I like the Angel

I wish she had vigilance or trample, but I do like her a lot. This deck definitely needs fliers.

@jobdevries I'm still testing your list with tops. Have you tried them?

Tao

05-11-2012, 10:11 AM

@Rector: Arianrhod has played with Rector a lot. From my experience fancy stuff like Form of the Dragon will lose you more games when you draw it than it will win you. Usually too much has to go well for cards like that to work. Stuff that you actively want to draw like Deed or Recurring Nightmare (or Faith's Fetters if you play more than one Rector) are better options.

@Sigarda: she is very good, better than Thrun. The regenration on Thrun is not often useful. But flying helps a lot in fighting Jace as well as blocking Delvers or Spirit Tokens. The sacrifice ability is easily forgotten but protection from Liliana and Innocent Blood is quite often useful.

DrHealex

05-11-2012, 11:26 AM

I dislike this trend of running 2 rec-night. I have been much happier with 1 rec_night and 1 diabolic intent.
Sigarda has also been amazing for me, although I must wonder if 3 finishers is too many (grave tit, sun tit, sigar).

I will agree that BoP is not that great in here. I like the 2 strange geese, they seem to allow me some sexy turn 2 plays and blowing up deed and sacing stuff for fun and profit.
I do love me some turn 3 titans.

1md and 1sb ooze seems optimal.

1-2 tops is the way to go. When we don't have the goods, we have more than enough mana to spare.

jobdevries

05-11-2012, 11:38 AM

@ Star: No, I haven't tested them thoroughly. Tomorrow I have a tourney, and I'm planning to play the list posted by me at page 54, with the exception of running a Kokusho, Fierce Empath and Maelstrom Pulse, instead of Protean Hulk, Spike Weaver and Abyssal Persecutor.

@DrHealex: I suppose it depends on the list (I am assuming you're playing a Birthing Pod version), but I'm playing 5 finishers (Sigarda, Grave tit, Sun tit, Karn, and Kokusho) and 5 doesn't seem to be too much to me.

sdematt

05-11-2012, 11:58 AM

I've been running 2 Garruk Relentless and have been loving him. Being able to poop tokens, and then search for Sun titan is the tits.

-Matt

Star|Scream

05-11-2012, 12:02 PM

jobdevries

05-11-2012, 12:08 PM

@ Star: I will :)

@Arianrhod, didn't you go to a tourney called Jupiter League or something? How did it go? Any cards particularly good or bad?
Edit: Never mind, Jupiter Games are this weekend. Anyway, keep us up to date, Arianrhod ;)

Arianrhod

05-11-2012, 12:15 PM

It's Jupiter Games -- they host a monthly qualifier tournament for an invitational held once a year. It's kind of like Starcity, but on a much smaller scale, and one that doesn't travel all over the country. At the same time, it's also home to many of the best legacy players in the Northeast...it's a ridiculously high skill level event. And the tournament is tomorrow, so I'll be able to give a report on Sunday most likely. I've got a few new pieces of technology that I'm trying out for this event....like an Elesh Norn in the sb for Maverick. Note that my list specifically has a bit more trouble with Maverick than most others in this thread, but at the tradeoff of that my list absolutely devours blue decks. I have something like an 80% win against Canadian Thresh, for example.

Star|Scream

05-11-2012, 12:25 PM

@jobdevries:

I haven't had the nerve to play the bojuka bog MD but I do have it in the sideboard as it's more of a spell than a land to me, but how do you cope with it in your opening hand against non-dredge decks?

hyperchord24

05-11-2012, 03:09 PM

@hyperchord: Isn't that what this deck is all about? Casting spells with a high cmc with a ridiculous amount of mana? 5 ain't that much, and she's easily tutored with GSZ..
That's what I don't understand. I don't have any trouble, but you start throwing 5 and 6 drops around and people automatically think it is jank.

HPB_Eggo

05-11-2012, 06:12 PM

I've been running 2 Garruk Relentless and have been loving him. Being able to poop tokens, and then search for Sun titan is the tits.

-Matt

I run a singleton Garruk Relentless, and he is always good if I draw him, even if only as some removal and a bit of damage soak. If he gets going, you basically just win. Also works wonders as removal with Master of the Wild Hunt. IMO Liliana is still overall better, though.

As for running multiple finishers, I run four/fives myself. Seeing multiple win conditions is hardly ever bad, as you can usually just go the slow route and keep backup in your hand.

My finishers at the moment are Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Thrun, and Sigarda. I have been very happy with each, although I have considered cutting Thrun now that Sigarda is out.

litenkatt

05-12-2012, 09:47 AM

Hello everyone

I recently decided to play some legacy after being a longtime standard player. I don't have much experience in legacy, I've only being trying out my friends legacy decks.

However, it's time to build my own deck and I've read a lot about pretty much every legacy deck there is but nic fit seems to be what catches me the most.

I prefer the black/green version so far, deck seems more solid overall as well as it's a bit cheaper to build (lacking legacy cards).

I'd love to hear if someone could explain why Nic Fit is good comparing to other legacy decks. Why not every list running Skeletal Scrying, it seems stupid good, and what's the biggest weakness of the Nic Fit deck.

Cheers

jobdevries

05-12-2012, 05:54 PM

@ Litenkatt:

I think Nic Fit has two big advantages comparing to other legacy decks:
1. Nic Fit abuses the ability of Veteran Explorer to get a lot of basic lands into play early in the game. You use that mana to cast ridiculous creatures.
2. The deck is one big toolbox, it gets what you need when you need it (by using Green sun's zenith, diabolic intent, eternal witness, fierce empath et cetera).

I don't think Skeletal Scrying is good in this deck (well, at least not in my version):
- It exiles cards from your graveyard. You don't want that, you USE your graveyard. Even lands have a function in the grave.
- It makes you lose live. This deck often needs some time to start going. I often win games being on 5 life, or even 1 or 2 life.

Are you planning to play BG with birthing pod? Or white splash? What version(s) are you considering?

@rest:
I managed to reach top 4 at the tournament today. :) I'll try to post a report tomorrow.

honz

05-12-2012, 07:22 PM

Im really glad someone else did well thinking along the same lines as me at scg. Strangleroot geist seems really random though, maybe aimed at killing plainswalkers?

@litenkatt

i see this deck as part of the survival of the fittest bloodline (you may gain something from looking at some old recsur decks, which are very similar in concept). This deck has two main things going for it:
1. Synergy - no card is 1 dimensional (except for inquisition of kozilek / swords); they all interact in many ways, and fit along a distinct curve.
2. Most decks only use the cards they have in their hand or in play. This deck utilizes its library (zenith, academy rector, birthing pod) and graveyard (nightmare, witness, reveilark, sun titan) as well.

Since it uses its graveyard and library so much, it is vulnerable to graveyard hate and cards like aven mindcensor and leonin arbiter. It also suffers more from things like swords to plowshares. The other main issue is that it runs on a higher curve than most other decks, which we justify with veteran explorer (and birthing pod). This means daze, spell pierce, and mana leak will forever be a thorn in your side. This also means you are more likely to randomly suffer from drawing too many high cc cards, or too many low cc cards (zenith & pod help fix this), or not enough lands.

@ Sigarda
I just got back into magic and didn't know this card existed. Perfect fit in this deck. I still think thrun deserves a spot too though, the ability to regen and chump indefinitely has won me many games. If you ever actually draw it, the uncounterable thing is nice too. Im gonna see how i like running both

@Garruk relentless
i like him alot more than big garruk, and he has more synergy with the rest of the deck. Kill a creature and tutor up whatever i want? yes please.

@Liliana
Another card i just found out about. When i first read it, it just didn't look very good. After testing a couple games i was very underwhelmed. With such a high curve, i almost always have cards in my hand that i don't want to discard. Ill keep trying him though

@random other things
I never liked grave titan, hes too expensive, off color, and doesn't interact with the rest of the deck. Deranged hermit is on color for zenith, costs less (kind of), has a bigger immediate impact, and combined with witness/nightmare/reveilark he wins games.

Also, recurring nightmare is a monster in this deck. I would run 3 if i wasn't playing birthing pod. Pretty much every creature has a cip/lp ability, why would you not want to abuse that. If nightmare goes unanswered, and i have 3+ creatures, i win most time.

HPB_Eggo

05-12-2012, 08:43 PM

Liliana is excellent, largely because we only need one card on the table to win, whatever it may be. Once our finisher is out, we just need it to stick around a few turns and we win, and the repetitive discard is a sort of protection.

Tangle that with her being a house against combo and control decks, and that we have among the best top deck potential of any deck in the format, and I have never been able to run less than two.

Also, that only covers her first ability. The other two are also excellent, especially in longer games.

If nothing else her competitive record is very impressive. A large majority of the lists that win at large tournaments run her.

1337erhosen

05-13-2012, 01:24 AM

Does anybody on this thread have experience with Natural Order in this deck? I've never tried it myself, but it seems to solve the problem of us needing to win quickly. Here's the link to a list (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8241&iddeck=60096) that took 1st out of 89 in Europe. I'm already on the Punishing Fire version, but I was wondering if anyone had tried NO at all before this.

jobdevries

05-13-2012, 09:11 AM

Hey guys,

Yesterday I went to a small legacy tournament (34 people) in the Netherlands, and wanted to let you guys know how I did. I'm proud to say I was the only Nic Fitter. The main thing that caught my attention was the fact that there wasn't a lot of storm decks around, which, of course, was a huge advantage to me.

I wasn't able to loan all the cards I needed. I was missing a scrubland, 2x windswept heath and a leyline of sanctity in my sideboard. That's why I had the replacements of a 3rd bayou, and a spike weaver in the SB. Instead of the 2x windswept heath, I played 2 marsh flats. Here is the list I played:

Creatures (15):
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Fierce Empath
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

Spells (18):
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Intent
2x Duress
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts and Enchantments (4):
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers (2):
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil

Lands (21):
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
2x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
3x Bayou
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Bojuka Bog

// Sideboard
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Spike Weaver
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Peacekeeper
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle

Match 1: Reanimate

I think this match-up is slightly unfavourable for me. He can reanimate the stuff in my graveyard, which is not ideal.

Game 1: This first game was insane. He made clever use of my graveyard, using animate dead on my Fierce Empath, to tutor his biggies. Although he kept bringing in big creatures, I still managed to keep them off using pernicious deed on his animate dead, and StP on his creatures. At one point I was at 7, and he at 27 life. Slowly I regained control, since he was running out of possibilities to return his creatures, and Ooze helped me removing his targets. Near the end of the game I had a Kokusho, Sun Titan and a Sigarda. He had some other wicked big creatures I can't recall. He was at 5 life, so a simple saccing of my kokusho gave me the first game. 1-0.

Game 2: I boarded in 3x Extirpate. I had a quick start, and was able to play a Sigarda. I extirpated his reanimate, which he had used to recur an Empyrial Archangel. I used diabolic tutor to fetch me a Liliana of the Veil: 2-0.

Match 2: Affinity

A really favourable match-up on my part. Deed will get them artifacts any time.

Game 1: Bad luck for him. He had to mulligan to 5. Still he managed to build a vast army, but lacked a cranial plating. Pernicious deed ended the game pretty quickly. 1-0.

Game 2: Boarded in a Spike Weaver. Again he had to mulligan. Although he got 3 Etched Champions out, and quickly kicked me to 6, a Deed stopped his actions. 2-0.

Match 3: Sliver Control

I was really surprised to see Slivers around. He did really well though, and managed to go top 8. He used Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls, and had some neat interactions going.

Game 1: I went completely nuts with a Sun Titan – Recurring deed. When Sigarda and Thrun joined him on the battlefield, he was forced to scoop.

Game 2: I didn’t board anything in. Lots of hand disruption and deed did the trick. Scavenging Ooze ate his creatures, and finished him off fairly quickly.

2-0.

Match 4: Sneak and Show

I have always been afraid of this match-up. There is little, besides Liliana, that I can do about an Emrakul. With Avacyn Restored bringing Sneak and Show Griselbrand, this deck has improved even further.

Game 1: He had a perfect hand, and cast a show and tell on turn 3. Emrakul comes in to play on his side. No answers. 0-1.

Game 2: I boarded in 3x Extirpate, Peacekeeper, Gaddock Teeg, Spike Weaver, and 4 Pithing Needles. I had a perfect hand for a normal match-up (aka: useless), so I was forced to mulligan to 4, keeping 2 lands, veteran explorer and an extirpate. I managed to stabilize pretty good. Had Sigarda in play, he had an Emrakul in hand, but annihilate couldn’t hit me, and he was lacking a way to put it into play. I cabal therapied 2 emrakuls in his hand. Then he used show and tell to get a Griselbrand into play. When I attacked with sigarda he made the mistake of blocking it, and I was able to pump it to 8/8 with a spikeweaver in play. I extirpated his Griselbrand, and his show and tells. Feeling confident I started kicking him with Sigarda. When he got a Sneak Attack out, and he countered my Pithing Needle, I had the decision of holding back, or kick him for lethal, hoping he had no emrakul in hand. He did have an emrakul, and I lost my Sigarda. On his turn he hardcasted an Emrakul. I tried to resolve a Liliana, he FoWed it. 0-2.

Match 5: Pox

I thought it wouldn’t be that bad of a match-up. But I was wrong.

Game 1: He completely stripped me of all the lands I had, and had no way to recover. 0-1.

Game 2: I boarded in 3x Leyline of Sanctity for his hand disruption.
I started off better this time, and I had a lot of lands into play. Unfortunately I kept drawing cards of very little use. He resolved a Liliana, making my hand even worse, and resolved a Karn Liberated (yes, you read that right, a Karn) shortly after. 0-2.

Match 6: Canadian Threshold

Game 1: I was really greedy, and kept a hand with 1x Fetch, 2x Duress, and 2x Cabal Therapy, and no other lands in hand. I made the horrible mistake of fetching a bayou, which he wastelanded. I didn’t draw any more lands, and he finished me off with a transformed Delver of Secrets. 0-1.

Game 2 and Game 3: I boarded in an extra Thrun. Fast games with deeds, sigarda and thrun. 2-1.

→ I went top 8, having won 4 out of 6 matches.

Match 7: Fauna-Maverick

I have never played a match this long. Our battle lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes.

Game 1: He started off with a duress, removing my zenith. I StPed his thalia, he sworded my veteran, et cetera. When he played an Ooze, I had a way of killing it. When I had an Ooze out, he killed it. After a long time of bothering each other, I had assembled enough lands to play the biggies. I sacced a deed clearing his bored, then resolved a Sun Titan. He had no answer for the Titan+Deed. 1-0.

Game 2: Some horrible plays on my side in this game. I kept hold of my Sigarda in hand, thinking he could bounce it using Karakas (Hexproof anyone? -.-). At one point I had a Sigarda and Thrun in play, he had 3 knights of the reliquary, a Terravore, and a Scavening Ooze with 6 +1/+1 counters. For some reason he was too careful to kick me with all of his creatures. He kept kicking with a single Ooze, which Thrun didn’t mind at all. Even though I blew up the board with deed for 3, he topdecked an Elspeth, which gave his Edric, Spymaster of Trest +3/+3 and flying, flying over my Thrun, and kicked me for lethal (he had managed to kill my Sigarda, by playing a Sigarda of his own).

Game 3: Had 3 veterans in play, kept kicking with them. Then blew up a deed. A lot of mana brought me a Grave Titan and Sigarda. Although I kept kicking with Grave and Sigarda, he had some nice synergy going on his side: Dryad Arbor, Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger kept them off for a while. Another deed stopped that. 2-1.

Because of this long match, the top 4 decided to split the prices, instead of playing another 2 matches.

Some notes, regarding the cards:

@Pernicious Deed: best card of the day. They are so deadly against any aggro deck, clearing their whole board. Clearing a board, including your own veterans, then casting something huge… amazing.

@Sigarda: I can’t say how happy I am, having this one in the deck. Every green sun’s zenith means a 5/5 flying, hexproof, taking care of planeswalkers, especially Liliana (which I did see a lot of times). It races them in 4 turns… the best creature in the deck, for sure.

@Spike Weaver: Horrible. Even matches I thought it’d be good, it sucked.

@ Leyline of Sanctity: I really need 4. You just want them on the battlefield, on the first turn.

After typing this report, I checked other reports, and noticed they were really brief. I hope you guys don't mind the report is rather large. Hope it might be of help to some of you people.
Any suggestions, any comments?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Job

HPB_Eggo

05-13-2012, 10:04 AM

Did you see Karn at all?

Sigarda being awesome and Spike Weaver not is unsurprising.

Why Duress over IoK? Did you ever wish it was the other way around?

Did you ever want a second Liliana? I know I usually run two to make it more likely to see one.

And., finally, you probably want a singleton Karakas for tutoring with KotR in the case of Reanimator and Sneak Show.

jobdevries

05-13-2012, 10:26 AM

For some reason I didn't see Karn at all. Didn't draw him on the right time, and had other things to tutor on other times. Still, I know he won me a lot of games in the past, so I'm reluctant to take him out.

Duress can get FoW, Jace et cetera, which are horrible to play against. I can't really think of any card I can not deal with later, that costs 3 mana or less. I think IoK and Duress can both be good in their own way, but I prefer Duress at the moment.

I did need a second liliana at certain times, but GSZ-> eternal made sure of that, next to diabolic tutor. Sun Titan + Liliana is also very neat. I do think though that a second Liliana would improve the deck. If I have the money/cards I might try it out.

Karakas was suggested to me as well, and just like a second Liliana, I might just get one if I can.

XdeckX

05-14-2012, 03:47 AM

Yesterday I played a small instore tourney (22 players, 5 rounds, no top4-8 playout) in The Netherlands. Diverse meta with one other NicFit player.
Eventhough the playlevel wasn't really that high I was still pleased with my performance splitting 1 for the prizes (just Avacyn Restored boosters though... which contained jank :()

The list
3 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
4 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 phyrexian tower
1 dryad arbor

4 veteran explorer
2 eteral witness
2 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 sun titan
1 banslayer angel
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 qasali pridemage
1 batterskull

3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
4 green sun's zenith
2 maelstrom pulse
3 thoughtseize
3 pernicious deed
3 swords to plowshares
2 liliana of the veil
//
4 leyline of sanctity
3 carpet of flowers
3 exirpate
2 diabolic edict
1 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist

Before the tournament started I bought a Sigarda at the shop which replace a 2nd Baneslayer Angel I had been running. I was trying to get my hands on a Kodama of the North Tree in the week before but failed and descided to run Batterskull in that slot instead. Thoughtseize was a switch I made the evening before replacing Duress, which in hindsight was a poor swap. The rest is basically stock list, I guess.

R1 Bant
My opponent tells me he hasn't been playing for 4 years. I thought I would run into only older cards but he still had a complete Bantlist. Nothing special thought.
I loose game 1 when he counters my deed I needed to wipe the board. Goyf makes short work of my lifetotal.
Game 2 I'm again with my back against the wall even after clearing the board with Deed. He has a Hierarch and a Pridemage equiped with Sword of Feast and Famine in play where I have a top and a Thrun with 4 lands. I rip a GZS and fetch Pridemage as the Sword is too much for me to handle and I would rather loose Thrun instead.
He predictably attacks with Pridemage so in responce I destroy the Sword and block with Thrun. For some reason he pops his pridemage and targets my top. Thanks for the gameturning misplay :) It's basically smooth sailing afterwards.
G3 I just wipe the board and zenith for Sigarda. GG.

R2 WelderMUD
G1 he does what is to be expected from the deck. Tomb->Monolith->Metalworker, play Mox Opal and Welder, go. I play a land and deside not to play my thoughtseize as I dont want to give welder a target. He reveals petal and Wurmcoil Engine and plays the latter. GG.
G2 I go with turn 1 Therapy for metalworker (miss), he goes from Great Furnace, welder. I get turn 2 Explorer, sac, therapy something play deed. I eventually deed his board and get Sun Titan going with deed in the grave and double swords and a pulse in hand.
G3 see G3 but he tries to get Painter+Grindstone going with me holding enough removal.

R3 Canadian Thresh
G1 Therapy+Explorer+Deed+Sun Titan = GG
G2 Therapy+Explorer+Deed+Sigarda = GG

R4 Burn
G1 I win on the back of Sigarda and Ooze (lifegain FTW)
G2 he drops Sufuric Vortex the turn after I drop Batterskull (while being at 5) In the end I'm one turn short of killing him with Skull and Explorer when he's at 5. I hate Vortex.
G3 I get Leyline turn0 with a 2nd in hand (in case he plays Anarchy which he doesnt)
He still gets my lifetotal down to single digits with dudes and non target burn (flame rift/PoP). Luckily the Flame Rifts have lowered his lifetotal allot as well, so after clearing a Vortex I kill him with Sigarda.

R5 SneakyShow
We're the only players with 12 points so we split the prizepool for 18 boosters each.
We still play for fun eventhough we both know how that's going to end. He has quite some experience playing against Nic Fit as 2 of his teammates play it.
I keep an okay-ish hand and get wrecked on turn 3 by Emrakul.
G2 I have an edict for the first Emrakul and white untapped with plow in hand in case he has a Griselbrand. He happens to have a 2nd Emrakul :(

All in all I'm quite happy with the list eventhough there is still room for improvement.
MVP - Sigarda. She alone is a reason to run white as the 3rd color.
Deed has also been doing wonders as always.

Slops - thoughtseize should have been Duress. Ususally you just dont really care for any creatures the opponent plays besides some fast beaters like Delver.
Liliana hasn't been doing much yesterday. I used her 1 time for get rid of a creature so I could attack for allot. But I didnt want to follow up with discards as I didnt have cards in hand that I wanted to discards. I felt more comfortable with lots of removal in hand than having my opponent discard some useless cards. Next time I will probably run Garruk, Primal Hunter instead.

Star|Scream

05-14-2012, 10:59 AM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46058

8th Place last night. Not even calling it Explorer Rock. Now it's just JUNK.

Standard list, 2 ooze, 2 thrun, no sigarda. + Deranged hermit.

Edit:

Any way we can deal with SNT/Griselband??

putting a needle on griselband works if they bring him out, but not emrakul. O-ring works on either, but they still get to draw 14 cards and we don't have the slots just for that. shriekmaw-like creatures work but they still get to draw 14 cards.

HoneyT

05-14-2012, 12:33 PM

Star|Scream

05-14-2012, 01:44 PM

Preemptive answers are our best options. Pinpoint discard + Extirpate/Surgical Extraction etc. We can also just accept that it's one of our few bad matchups and move on.

what about 3x phyrexian metamorph in the board?

3 mana for the following problems:

Clique
Mangara
Opposing thrun/sigarda
jitte killer, Batterskull/sword grabber
wurmcoil engine
kills anything from reanimator, and gets past iona naming black, white, or green
emrakul AND Griselband (Still doesn't stop sneak attack, but teeg can help against that or slow them down?)

Also, when could you not use another:

Eternal witness
pridemage/elder
titan
fierce empath
dryad arbor

I think I'll start testing it in my carpet of flowers spot.

EDIT: Also I don't think that it's a good strategy to resign to failure against a deck that just got a huge increase in power level in the past 2 weeks (Griselband).

litenkatt

05-15-2012, 06:04 AM

@XdeckX

Hi, nice report.

I love your decklist, matter of fact, I just bought the missing cards from your list to try it out myself. I still think liliana is very good and should be at least a 2-off.

I'm wondering though, have you done any testing against Reanimate? Seems like it could be a tough matchup

edit: Also, why are you not running Karakas?

XdeckX

05-15-2012, 07:56 AM

@litenkatt I've played a similar list against Reanimate before. The matchup is not that bad tbh. A quick Ooze solves allot. As does running Swords to Plowshares. Perhaps replacing the Extirpates in the board with Surgical Extractions might be better. There's only so much we can do to cover the bad matchups. I worry allot more about TES and SneakyShow than I worry about Reanimate.

With my list the TES matchup is descent after boarding but the SneakyShow matchup is still abysmal. I have no clue on how to improve that. Perhaps Star|Screams suggestion (adding Phyrexian Metamorph) might be the way to go.

In regards to Liliana: I do like her allot and love to bring her back with Sun Titan. But in the last tournament she didnt turn up often and when she did I only used the 'sac a dude' ability as I didnt want to discard the great cards I had in hand.
I currently don't own any Garruk Primal Hunters but I'm really eager to test him. I love to draw 3+ cards. That ability alone makes him worth considering.

Star|Scream

05-15-2012, 08:43 AM

Garruk, Primal hunter is great if you have a dude out or can wait a turn. He can protect himself better than lily The only issue is the GGG if you're splashing white (which I think we should be, for sigarda, swords, and leyline/teeg in the sb)

Edit:

Day of judgement over Damnation in a white-centric build? I wonder if the trade-off of needing WW (which, if sun titan can be run, why can't this?) is worth the times you'll be able to save a thrun from your own board wipe... Also it's not supposed to matter, but to me it does: Each one is $18 cheaper than Damnation

Qweerios

05-15-2012, 05:03 PM

Perhaps there is a way to minimize the black splash and utilize more white. Being heavily invested in green is not optional IMO. The deck functions with the early access to green and black mana but having access to more green scales in the mid-late game with Ooze, Witness, and potentially Garruk. The only staple of Nic Fit that is heavy in black colored mana is Liliana. She skews how you build your manabase early on and really can't be substituted by any other card without diminishing returns since her abilities are so widespread (e.g. playing 3 Thoughtseize + 3 Innocent blood to make up for 4 Lilianas).

I will restart working on a GBW Nic Fit list by reducing heavy black and green colored cards in favor of white ones. However, I am not entirely sold on StP being an upgrade to Innocent Blood. Blood goes through protection, shroud, puts creatures in graveyards (Ooze), serves as an outlet for Explorer, and requires black mana (crucial in sculpting your 3 first lands, you don't want a plains on T1). Hell, it even enables the Witness/Volrath engine without the Tower (I've done it once in a major tournament). The duality of this card has always been an advantage and rarely been a disadvantage for me. A 2/2 split between Blood and StP is probably the wisest choice. Here is what I mostly see in splashing white:

Kodama becomes Sigarda
Primal Hunter becomes Relentless + Elspeth
Pulse becomes Vindicate
Wickerbough becomes Qasali
Prime Titan becomes ??? another Titan? 6 drops are an abomination in any Legacy deck and if you don't play with a Nightmare/Rector/Pod engine, don't even bother with playing any amount of copies of any non-GSZ-able 6drop, it will bite you in the ass. However, there is always the possibility that splashing white makes the deck quicker and offers more quality cards at a lower cost, therefore nullifying the necessity for a 6drop altogether (Sigarda > Titan being a potential example).

On an ending note, what interrests me the most in a white splash is the prospect of having multiple quality Planeswalkers on the board (forget Sorin), Better sideboard options, and a less passive deck with more pinpoint, early answers.

I will try to post a detailled GBW Nic Fit list in the following weeks after proper testing.

Koby

05-15-2012, 05:16 PM

I've tested Sorin briefly, but not perhaps enough to see him crap out but i'm wondering why you think he's not quality? Is Elspeth's Jump that much better than Sorin's team-pump? They both work to end the game quicker. My reasoning for his inclusion are two-fold: easier to cast (:w::w: being more strict), and allows you to have removal against other Planeswalkers.

Qweerios

05-15-2012, 11:40 PM

Yes, the Elspeth jump is much more important than the Sorin Emblem. I rarely make more than two tokens with Elspeth and prefer putting pressure on my opponent. The fact that both of Elspeth's abilities add counters is also very important. Reaching the ultimate is common with Elspeth + removal.

litenkatt

05-16-2012, 08:21 AM

Elspeth actually is very interesting. Could definitely see her replacing garruk.

@Qweerios
I look forward to your report!

Atlanos

05-16-2012, 03:55 PM

I think that Garruk is more effectiv against Maverick and uw/x Blade.

moseby

05-17-2012, 10:06 AM

You folks see this http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-not-a-tournament-report/ ?

Seems interesting, the side board is an absolute shambles, and definitely needs a loam in it. Other then completely overhauling the board, how feasible does it seam?

videogamer99

05-17-2012, 01:15 PM

I went 4-0 at my local on Tuesday. I played a fairly stock list. I beat mono-block vampires (2-0), Zoo (2-0), Dredge (2-1), and Lands (1-0-1).

ryn ball_2

05-18-2012, 11:10 PM

is this creature list is good at a BGw color nic fit? or am i missing something?

1 dryad arbor
1 grave titan
1 gaddock teeg
1 sigarda host of herons
1 qasali pridemage
1 thrun the last troll
2 eternal witness
2 scavenging ooze
4 veteran explorer

any suggestions?

jobdevries

05-19-2012, 04:49 AM

@ryn: Sun Titan. Can return deeds, recurring nightmare, liliana etc :)
And isn't Gaddock Teeg more like a SB card?

ryn ball_2

05-19-2012, 11:29 AM

@ryn: Sun Titan. Can return deeds, recurring nightmare, liliana etc :)
And isn't Gaddock Teeg more like a SB card?

thanks jobdevries! yeah i moved teeg from MD to SB just got a lone copy of sun titan :) so this is my list

1 dryad arbor
1 grave titan
1 sun titan
1 sigarda host of herons
1 qasali pridemage
1 thrun the last troll
1 kitchen finks
2 eternal witness
2 scavenging ooze
4 veteran explorer

Arianrhod

05-20-2012, 10:18 AM

I'm not going to say much about last Saturday's NELC@Jupiter, because it was a train wreck for myself and everyone else in my fair that was playing a fair deck. The event was much smaller than usual, at 60-odd players, and of that a full 1/3-1/2 were playing combo decks of various types. There were at least 8 Sneak and Snow decks, one Eldrazi Post, 3-4 High Tide, 3-4 ANT/TES, multiple dredge decks, painters, and so on. I expected another Maverick/Thresh meta, since that's par for the course up there, and planned my board accordingly -- apparently, since it was the last one of the season, nobody felt like playing their real decks, though, and I summarily got ****** repeatedly by combo decks without any hate my board.

Now, for something a bit more interesting. I tested my Red Frontiers list at a local legacy event. For reference,

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Haunting Echoes
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Wandering Stream
SB: 1 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

The event was smaller than usual (12 people) due to work conflicts and summer traveling, but it was still fairly competitive. I played vs Burn, Thopters, Esperblade, Bant, and then Thopters again in the top 4.

Burn was randomly a really good matchup. Game one I flatout raced him with Explorer, Top->Explorer, Zenith for Explorer, Scapeshift win. He got me to 2 in response to the Scapeshift, with a Vortex out, but he couldn't finish me before dying to angry mountains. Game two he didn't have Vortex, and Wandering Stream + Huntmasters did work. I ended the game at something cushy like 16 life.

Thopters had a very, very lucky but inexperienced player. We had a solid match regardless. He got game one, but g2 I blew him out hard with Tsunami, and then g3 Pernicious Deed did its thing at a perfect time and I Cranial'd his Sword of the Meek. He tried to keep me Humble throughout the match, but my Pulses did their work all match.

Esperblade saw my deck just flatout dig in its heels and refuse to work, as all Explorer decks can sometimes do. I mulled hard both games, and even though I managed to stabilize both times, I just sat there and spun my wheels while he drew into more gas. Also, Sword of Feast and Famine is a bitch when you can't find any of your 3 Pulses, 4 Deeds, or 4 Burning Wishes. Awkward.

Bant got molested by Huntmasters. There isn't really too much more to say about that. Game one took something like 35 minutes, as he had Clique + Karakas active and proceeded to sculpt my hand every turn with it, while developing his board state with a few dorks and a huge KotR. Meanwhile, I had Huntmasters that I kept toggling, generating enough value to keep up. Eventually I found a Deed and boomed his board, then a few turns later I drew into Scapeshift after Therapying him to check for Force. Somehow I'd only played four mountains the entire game. Weird. Game two he had Leyline of Sanctity, which eventually got Deeded away, and then he died to Primeval Titan.

Top4 was a rematch vs Thopters. This match played out very similarly to the earlier match in the swiss, although he was careful to play around Tsunami this time. Game three I proceeded to not draw a land in something like 9 turns (note that the red list runs 24 lands). He assembled a quick Thopter/Sword while I stared angrily at a gorgeous hand sporting multiple Deeds, Witness, Primeval Titan, and 2x Scapeshift. Eventually I hit a few lands and then an Explorer, which enabled me to Scapeshift with 6 lands in play, killing off his 5 Thopters. He made more, but it bought me a turn. In the end, I was one mana short of being able to Deed for his everything. In retrospect, there actually may have been an out involving the 2nd Scapeshift, whereby I Scapeshift again to get rid of his Thopters again, drop E. Wit to return Deed, then next turn drop and crack Deed for his board. The thought of Scapeshifting a second time didn't even enter my mind at the time, though, unfortunately. Still cracked a Cavern of Souls + 20 dollars in store credit = good day.

I'm definitely going to make some changes to the list, but it is in fact very, very viable. Recurring Nightmare was absolutely ass in this deck. I never got to set up a Witness loop, and even though I was usually able to find it if I really wanted to, there wasn't anything for me to abuse with it. That's definitely getting cut for the future. The Hymn to Tourachs in the board were also awful, although I think I'll leave one in the board for a Wish target vs combo. That'll open up 2 more board slots, which I think I'll dedicate to blue decks. One of the things that I love the most about my White list is that it absolutely crushes blue, and I'd like to share that trait across each different colored list.

Huntmaster was a total allstar, although I don't think I'd bump him to a 4-of. He was flipping and flipping back all day. There's also a neat trick you can do with him and two Tops to control his toggling. He has also stained his hands with many planeswalkers, especially vs the Thopter player. Big fan of this guy. Also: Red Elemental Blast. It's actually hilarious because blue decks want board their Forces out vs this deck, which makes REB all the more dangerous for them. As someone who never really plays red, I have to admit that REBing their Jace feels awfully good.

I've got a few GPTs for Atlanta coming up, as well as that event itself, so I'm going to focus on my primary (white) list for a while again. That said, the red list is definitely powerful, and I'm definitely going to keep working with it in the future.

I'll conclude by noting that I don't really like the one that Caleb put up in his article. It's decent, I guess, but it's too all-in on Valakut for me. IMO, Valakut should be an engine to be utilized, but not relied upon. Also, 3x Primeval Titan? Really? That feels absolutely awful to me. I'm not saying that Valakut isn't powerful, because it definitely is -- it's powerful enough to pull you out of some really nasty situations, and it can win disturbingly quickly. But I feel that putting all of your deckbuilding eggs in one basket with any Explorer deck is a recipe for disaster. Explorer decks are hybrids, and we should embrace that rather than trying to become more linear.

ryn ball_2

05-20-2012, 11:45 AM

went 8th this past 20 men side event legacy from a GPT standard in Manila, Philippines

for reference
1 dryad arbor
1 sun titan
1 grave titan
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 qasali pridemage
1 kitchen finks
1 thrun, the last troll
2 eternal witness
2 scavenging ooze
4 veteran explorer

4 cabal therapy
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 green sun's zenith
3 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares

3 pernicious deed
1 recurring nightmare

2 sensei's divining top

2 liliana of the veil

3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
3 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold

sb
1 pernicious deed
2 perish
2 choke
3 duress
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
3 surgical extraction
1 tormod's crypt
1 grafdigger's cage

*i will go directly on situation that gave me a win

R1 vs UR delver
G1: sun titan+finks=win
G2: deed for this delvers and grim=FTW
1-0

R2 vs punishing maverick
G1: he won by scavenging ooze beatdown
G2: deed blowed his field
G3: i deed' this board and even he surgical my deed i managed to drop a thrun and GSZ for sigarda=win
2-0

R3 vs UR delver
G1: double KO, both of us died from price of progress
G2: deed his board and GSZ for finks=win
G3: i managed to drop a sigarda from GSZ, sun titan and infinite blockers from my sun titan but time is up
result for this match 1-0-1
3-0

R4 vs hightide
G1: he combo out
G2: insane sideboarding plans i made in this game, i put 10 cards hate from my sb but down to 5 cards mulligans a single bayou and a gaddock teeg and canonist and cabal but few turns my deck didnt gave me lands :( so even i cast my gaddock teeg he wiped it away and combo off
3-1

R5 vs fauna maverick
G1: MoM gave him the win, i drew nothing but lands :)
G2: i deed his board sadly he surgical my deeds :( from there he recovered and tutor for elesh norn and its game
3-2

any comments/suggestion? :)

1337erhosen

05-20-2012, 06:57 PM

@Arianrhod

I like the idea of a red splash in this deck, but I do not think you want to muddle your mana with Valakut. If you want to be casting a 4 mana "I win" card, it seems as though Natural Order would be an easier route. You could still wish for it and win quickly without having to run duals that don't produce green mana.

If you're satisfied with the Scapeshift engine, then I definitely think you're on the right track. Huntmaster and Broodmate Dragon both seem sick, and I agree that you probably don't want Recurring Nightmare.

How did you like 3 GSZ? That card seems pretty essential to the deck, and I was wondering if you ever missed having the 4th copy.

HPB_Eggo

05-20-2012, 07:51 PM

I've been toying around with the red splash, and there are a few things that I've learned pretty quickly...

Huntmaster is great. Even without flipping him more than just once to the other side, he does a lot in pretty much every match-up - he gains two life, makes a token, deals some burn, removes a threat, and swings for four with trample. If you can get out two SDT it's also really, really easy to flip him back to normal and gain more life and tokens.

Valakut is good. However, Scapeshift is bad IMO, and Burning Wish always feels a bit too slow. Instead of going even that far into the combo, I simply run 2 Valakut and Primeval Titan as my huge finisher. Assuming I have 4 Mountains in play and GSZ for Titan fetching 2 Valakut, he can swing and grab 2 more Mountains for 18 damage the turn after. Much, much better than the finishing on Sun Titan or Grave Titan. Sigarda's the only thing that comes close, and only then because it's impossible to get rid of her.

I'd suggest a more or less normal list, something kind of like this...

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Innocent Blood
1 Terminate

2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

The game plan here is to stall out with Huntmaster tokens and lifegain, and then win instantly off the back of Primeval Titan -> 2 Valakut -> 18 damage. I'd almost consider going up to a fourth Huntmaster here, but I would really have to do more testing with it both ways.

Also, the spell suite could use some work. Not sure on the last three cards in that section, or Wickerbough Elder, to be honest.

And, as an aside, red splash means we can run Burning Tree-Shaman in the sideboard to absolutely stomp control decks. This makes me very happy.

Arianrhod

05-20-2012, 08:21 PM

3 GSZ seemed okay. I might add in the 4th in place of the Nightmare -- not sure yet. The problem with having the full 4 is that I don't have dudes at each CMC to really take advantage of it. But maybe I'll change that, too...we'll see.

Scapeshift/Valakut is actually the sickness. With Natural Order, you're entirely relying on your NO duder to get there, in a world of Phantasmal Image/Metamorph, Perish (which people will already be bringing in), Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, etc etc. Valakut just straight kills them, while alternatively also sometimes acting as a Wrath when you need it to. Additionally, although clogging up the manabase with all of the red duals is annoying, just having Valakut in the deck can enable some random wins, because if you get into a topdeck war, every mountain you draw is actually business, while your opponent is still stalled out.

Broodmate was derpy. When I got it out it was fine, but if I'm being honest, most of the time I just dropped Titan. I still like the Zwillingsbrute-Drache, don't get me wrong, but it's something that I could see eventually changing if the right card comes along. Valakut/Scapeshift and Huntmaster -are- the reasons to play the red version, straight up. Other things like REB, Burning Wish, etc are nice, but those two engines are crucial to the deck.

Star|Scream

05-20-2012, 09:38 PM

Based on an idea Qweerios had, I've been trying a 2/2 bloodghast/diabolic intent split in a standard GB list. I have to say it's not that bad. It's still a dog to combo but is a wee bit faster, and with all of our land-fetching, it makes a 2/1 a MUST-STP for opponents.

Also with the added sac outlets I've included 2x percy as a finisher.

Tao

05-21-2012, 05:21 AM

Here is my recent list with matchups for the most popular decks and SB plans. It focusses on beating RUG Delver and Maverick while going equal against Stoneblade and at least giving a fighting chance against Combo decks. A few things that I want to note in general:

Sensei's Divining Top: People don't play enough Tops. Imo 4 is the right choice and 2 or 3 is wrong. I want a Top every game because the cards do completely different things (Discard, Removal, Acceleration and Haymakers)

Removal: People don't play enough of that either. For the single creature removal you need it to keep up with the most popular deck RUG and thus it has to be cheap. 4 Swords to Plowshares should be mandatory in GBw and for lists without White I would suggest 4 Innocent Blood. Also despite everything Deed is imo still a 3- or 4-of. But I could see why people want to play less.

// Lands
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Forest
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [B] Mountain
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [B] Swamp
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast

vs. Maverick
With 4 Deeds, 4 Tops to find them and additional Removal you should be able to take game 1 most of the time. Post board not much changes. You only get 2 solid Plagues but they don't get much useful stuff either.

Side:
- 1 Ooze
- 1 Huntmaster
+ 2 Engineered Plague (usually name Human; it hits most importantly Mother of Runes but also Noble Hierach and Thalia; also acts as emergency removal for Aven Mindcensor which is their best card vs. Nic Fit)

vs. RUG Delver
Innocent Blood shines in this matchup. They are very light on creatures so if you can Fire a Delver and Blood a Mongoose they might already be out. Stabilzing against Goyf is not that hard though it might get you from time to time. Post board you just go overboard on Removal and if you have Mana you can usually kill everything they have. If you are absolutely positive that they don't play Sulfuric Vortex you can side out Wickerbough Elder but against an unknown opponent I would keep the Elder in because Vortex is their biggest possible threat post board.

- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 P. Fire
- 1 Thrun
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Garruk
+ 3 Red Blasts
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 1 Kitchen Finks

vs. Stoneblade
Game 1 you have to play an awkward control game but it can work. Primeval Titan, Thrun and P. Fire/Grove are your main cards and you have to hope to get there with them. Titan will get Sworded but the 2 Groves should give you some reach. Explorer is often not desirable in this matchup, it just accelerates them into Jace.
Game 2+3 get better because you side out dead cards. They have Surgicals now for P. Fire and Perishes but unlike you they will have to side out real cards so that is okay. It will be an attrition war so expect to win with something awkward like Witness or Wolf token beatdown. Also if they don't MD it they bring the GB Sword.

- 3 Veteran Explorer (keep 1 in for emergencies but usually you want to get your lands into play with normal land drops)
- 4 Innocent Blood
- 1 Punishing Fire (play around Surgical/Extirpate if you can by keeping up one Grove to respond; it will likely get Surgicaled if you are forced to play it early and you will usually have enough time to find a Fire in this matchup anyway so 3 are enough)
- 1 Scavenging Ooze (they will just Sword it and if they are bad and leave Spell Snare in which happens quite frequently against lower level opponents don't give them value)
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Engineered Plague (only vs. the Spirits version of course)
+ 2 Duress
+ 1 Extirpate (a bad card but useful for the very late game against Academy Ruins or in response to a Snapcaster)

vs. Sneak and Show
Game 1 was already disastrous and them getting fucking Griselbrand made things even worse. Game 2 gets better but it is still not a matchup you want to face. You get a lot of stuff to put up a fight and steal a few matches but there is nothing insane like Yard removal vs. Dredge.

- 4 Punishing Fire
- 4 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Broodmate Dragon
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Thrun
- 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
+ 4 Red Blasts
+ 3 Duress
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Extirpate
+ 2 Diabolic Edict

vs. Dredge
You are pretty even against Dredge already in game 1. Explorer + Ooze or Deed is a solid win plan. P. Fire offers some board control and a way to instantly exile Bridges. Game 2 gets obviously even better.

- 2/4 Innocent Blood (keep 2 in on the draw)
- 2/4 Cabal Therapy (keep 2 in on the play, name Putrid Imp or Lion's Eye Diamond turn 1 if you draw it)
+ 1 Extirpate
+ 2 Surgical
+ 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 2 Engineered Plague

Star|Scream

05-21-2012, 10:13 AM

Tao,

I'll definitely try out your list. May I inquire about the absence of Liliana and Maelstrom pulse?

Thorondor

05-21-2012, 10:39 AM

modify it slightly:
-1 top
-1 deed
-1 punishing

+2 lilli
+1 maelstrom pulse
or vice versa
you could also do -1 innocent blood
+1 maelstrom pulse

actually I am not a fan of this list but with these modification I could see me playing this list.

maybe ;-)

Tao

05-21-2012, 11:26 AM

- Pulse is a bit too slow against Delver for a removal spell. It is not as nessecary as in nonred lists against Planeswalkers because you have Punishing Fire to deal with Jace. Elspeth is rarely seen these days but she is still managable with Punishing Fire (though it can get close). And for everything else Deed + Wickerbough have to be enough.
- Liliana is very close to making the list. But like Pulse she is too slow against RUG Delver. Getting BB Mana can be complicated sometimes. If you'd add her it would be for removal (Deed, Fire, Innocent Blood) but I prefer those cards as 4-ofs because they are needed in some matchups. I tried with 3 Deed but it gets uncomfortable against Maverick in G1 because the odds of having Deed get significantly lower.

If you want to add Lilianas I would suggest to add them for a Fire and an Innocent Blood.

Malakai

05-21-2012, 12:55 PM

I've still yet to see this deck win a game against anything without resolving Pernicious Deed. It's to the point that I would run 4x Deed, and 1x Diabolic Intent as basically the 5th copy--or, if I am in white, I'd run 1x Enlightened Tutor. The rest of the deck just durdles too hard. Huntsmaster is a move in the right direction, although I still think splashing white and exchanging all the terrible GSZ targets for KotRs is better. Liliana should be in the maindeck in multiples, as she's one of your few ways to land a real threat, and she also gives you real game against combo. Not to mention the person with the Liliana is going to win every mirror.

Oh, for the record, the correct card to name with Cabal Therapy against UW is Elspeth, seeing as you're almost zero to beat her.

Tao

05-21-2012, 02:08 PM

- You can win without Deed very well by either going over the top of what the opponent does or outvalueing him with one of the engines.
- KotR is maybe ok as a 1-off. You won't win races with him, you don't have any lower costed creatures to tank Swords and compared to Maverick it loses value by not being able to mana screw the opponent with Wasteland.
- Huntmaster is not a step in the right direction, it is just an upgraded version of Finks.
- Enlightened Tutor MD is a bad choice
- Liliana is not winning the mirror. She is good in the mirror, not more. The edict effect is not spectacular and the discard is symmetrical. Before she goes ultimate the opponent will most likely have found a Pulse.
- naming Elspeth first against UW is stupid, it is either Brainstorm or something he tutored with Stoneforge Mystic

Alexeezay

05-22-2012, 09:23 AM

Cool list Tao, I will definitely try it out.
Why is there no Dryad Arbor? Could you now think of playing only 3 GSZ?

Kich867

05-22-2012, 10:13 AM

Cool list Tao, I will definitely try it out.
Why is there no Dryad Arbor? Could you now think of playing only 3 GSZ?

Dryad Arbor doesn't actually do anything for the deck. There's cutesy little tricks to do with it, but far and away I've found the card to be significantly burdensome. If you fetch it early people can kill it, if you fetch it late they often have a wasteland just sitting there because the card doesn't do much against us anyways.

I rarely found it to contribute anything meaningful to the deck. One time I fetched it to flashback a therapy and that's about it, in the opening hand it's almost strictly the worst thing to see.

Star|Scream

05-22-2012, 10:15 AM

Tried Tao's list online last night. -1 deed -1 top for +2 lili

I feel the fires really seal the deal against delver and stoneblade.

I definitely missed the dryad, especially when I had 2 therapies in the yard and no creatures (although perhaps the 4th top would've helped) and several fetch lands.

Without targeted removal (pulse) I did feel vulnerable to needle set on deed. I don't feel comfortable with just one answer to that in the 75 (elder) that costs 5cc

Also I totally punted against death & taxes forgetting what I had therapied for a few turns earlier.

Other than that I'm very excited about going into red due to the prevalence of blue-based combo.

Star|Scream

05-22-2012, 10:41 AM

Dryad Arbor doesn't actually do anything for the deck. There's cutesy little tricks to do with it, but far and away I've found the card to be significantly burdensome. If you fetch it early people can kill it, if you fetch it late they often have a wasteland just sitting there because the card doesn't do much against us anyways.

I rarely found it to contribute anything meaningful to the deck. One time I fetched it to flashback a therapy and that's about it, in the opening hand it's almost strictly the worst thing to see.

I think you should make a more conscious effort to utilize the card.

It's not about "cutesy little tricks" in this deck. It's about using any available avenue to try and win.

Dryad can:

Emergency block
Accelerate through GSZ
Emergency sac for therapy
Tap for G, and then get sac'd to a tower for BB
Save your win condition from an edict effect.
gain a life from ooze

I don't feel any of those things are "cutesy." The only real drawback is summoning sickness

Kich867

05-22-2012, 10:55 AM

I think you should make a more conscious effort to utilize the card.

It's not about "cutesy little tricks" in this deck. It's about using any available avenue to try and win.

Dryad can:

Emergency block
Accelerate through GSZ
Emergency sac for therapy
Tap for G, and then get sac'd to a tower for BB
Save your win condition from an edict effect.
gain a life from ooze

I don't feel any of those things are "cutesy." The only real drawback is summoning sickness

Maybe I could try it in my list again, my largest issue was I was running it in a straight G/B list with Primeval Titan, which involves Treetop Villages, and at the time I was running Volrath's and a Tower, so of my land I'm looking at: 2x Villages, 1x Arbor, 1x Tower, and 1x Stronghold, as all being useless ways to start the game off, so all it did was increase my chance of not being able to do anything on turn 1.

Accelerating with GSZ always felt like the wrong choice, almost unanimously--I would much rather wait for GSZ'ing an ooze or something more important, I didn't mind it if I found another GSZ, but still that felt frustrating. Also, the sheer amount of times it just about insta-dies to everything was annoying as well.

Star|Scream

05-22-2012, 11:25 AM

Maybe I could try it in my list again, my largest issue was I was running it in a straight G/B list with Primeval Titan, which involves Treetop Villages, and at the time I was running Volrath's and a Tower, so of my land I'm looking at: 2x Villages, 1x Arbor, 1x Tower, and 1x Stronghold, as all being useless ways to start the game off, so all it did was increase my chance of not being able to do anything on turn 1.

Accelerating with GSZ always felt like the wrong choice, almost unanimously--I would much rather wait for GSZ'ing an ooze or something more important, I didn't mind it if I found another GSZ, but still that felt frustrating. Also, the sheer amount of times it just about insta-dies to everything was annoying as well.

Having that many lands that don't do anything immediately does suck, and with the villages and primetime, I don't blame you for cutting the arbor.

Specifically referring to Tao's fire/red splash, and given there are so many duals (groves) already I think that arbor may be usable.

Tao

05-22-2012, 03:18 PM

For the list I think -1 Punishing Fire + 1 Liliana of the Veil is probably a good idea. Not sure what to cut for a second Liliana yet.

Cool list Tao, I will definitely try it out.
Why is there no Dryad Arbor? Could you now think of playing only 3 GSZ?

I think you should make a more conscious effort to utilize the card.

It's not about "cutesy little tricks" in this deck. It's about using any available avenue to try and win.

Dryad can:
....
The only real drawback is summoning sickness

Summoning sickness isn't so bad, but dying to Removal and Deed is very bad for a land in a deck that avoids giving them other targets for their Removal. That causes the main drawback: Dryad Arbor would have to be in a spell slot because if it replaces a land it would die too often and leave you mana screwed. I don't think it would be bad to run it but that is the reason why I prefer a fourth copy of a key card over it. I like the things it does (especially the Therapy flashback), but I think a fourth (Deed, GSZ, Top) does more for the deck.

Without targeted removal (pulse) I did feel vulnerable to needle set on deed. I don't feel comfortable with just one answer to that in the 75 (elder) that costs 5cc.

For a while I had 1 Vithian Renegades in the Sideboard to side in against Stoneforge decks and Maverick. That should probably come back in. I really like what Plague does, though, so it probably would have to be for a Red Blast.

Domel

05-23-2012, 09:02 AM

Hi,

I went 5-2 in 2nd Big Legacy (16th place) at Bazaar of Moxen with my friend's build:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
2 Grave Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Shriekmaw

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reccuring Nightmare

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
3 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Extirpare
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Damnation
2 Snuff Out

Record:
Lands.deck 2-0
RUG Tempo 2-0
BGW Nic Fit 0-1 - I totally misplayed this one:(
RUG Tempo 2-0
Sneak & Show 0-2
UBr ANT 2-0
RUG Tempo 2-0

Acidic Slime won me games against Lands.deck destroing Glacial Chasm nad is my favourite utility creature here:) Snuff Outs were usefull against RUGs killing early Delvers.

Star|Scream

05-23-2012, 09:30 AM

Stoyrm

05-23-2012, 02:45 PM

3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor (this should be another land i think)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wall of Blossoms (should be something else probably)

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
____________________________________

This is my list so far. I do not agree with the needing 3-4 sensei's divining top. I'm not always happy to see one and it durdles quite a lot. ATM i feel that i never ramp up with Dryad Arbor. So it is usually a useless card. However it's a creature for both Recurring Nightmare and Cabal therapy so i'm not sure. I've added Gaddock Teeg (this helps our bad matchups so much! As a friend of mine said; if you want to increase a number of matchups, this is the card that increases the most matchups). And it's only a one of. Qasali took wickerbough elder's place, i'm not sure it's correct, but more testing will show, it's cheaper, but doesn't stick around. Sigarda is the real deal. Scavenging Ooze nr 2 is really good against some decks. I was considering Ulwenwald Tracker, however without all the big badass knights and mother of runes, it just isn't good enough and has been turned into a Master of The Wild Hunt.

Darkblast is a good answer to elves, maverick and delvers early. I'm not sure if it should be a the 4th sword but i'm testing it out :). Maelstrom Pulse gives me an out to Cursed Totem + Ensnaring Bridge + Pithing Needle. Aka Lands or counterbalance.dec.

Recurring Nightmare has been amazing, and as long as i'm playing Sun titan i assume i'll be playing it, i could also see playing it with huntmaster but who knows.

So far i've only played against Lands, Rug delver (without stifle) and some combo decks. Rug Delver without stifle seems like a toss up and lands seems pretty hard to loose.

blescot

05-23-2012, 03:47 PM

What do you guys think about a singleton of Vexing Shusher (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/222.html)?
Could it improve our matchup against UW Stoneblade (and maybe RUG) or is it just bad?

Tao

05-23-2012, 04:06 PM

Playing Tao's list online last night, came across a weird version of the deck. It was GUb with intuitions, brainstorms, jace, palinchron, recurring nightmare, kokusho, therapy, explorer, eternal witness, and phantasmal image

I totally punted.

The more lategame stuff you cram into the deck, the better it gets in the lategame of course. But the RUG and Maverick matchups suffer a lot from most of the cards you named so I don't think going to deep is the way to go in the current Meta. But in general Punishing Fire is quite good in the mirror, you have a lot of Mana and he has no real way to deal with it in game 1 (Game 2 often won't finish anyway).

I added 2 Liliana of the Veil for an Innocent Blood and a Punishing Fire. It feels like an improvement because the deck needed a bit more threats in controllish matchups. How was the deck doing in general for you?

Star|Scream

05-23-2012, 05:08 PM

The more lategame stuff you cram into the deck, the better it gets in the lategame of course. But the RUG and Maverick matchups suffer a lot from most of the cards you named so I don't think going to deep is the way to go in the current Meta. But in general Punishing Fire is quite good in the mirror, you have a lot of Mana and he has no real way to deal with it in game 1 (Game 2 often won't finish anyway).

I added 2 Liliana of the Veil for an Innocent Blood and a Punishing Fire. It feels like an improvement because the deck needed a bit more threats in controllish matchups. How was the deck doing in general for you?

I've been building GBw for almost a month and immediately dumped it for GBr!

Seriously with Terminus on the rise Sigarda isn't as great as I feel everyone is making her out to be. She's a great finisher, don't get me wrong, but she doesn't provide A: card advantage (token makers/witness) or B: extreme utility (ooze) She can't regenerate, and doesn't have vigilance or anything. At least broodmate can swing for 4 while holding back a blocker.

Plus Show and tell is such a beating that I think the only way this deck can hope to survive it is on the stack (blasts)

I haven't quite gotten the hang of the Huntmasters though. Still learning the card.

regarding playing the blue mirror:

I forgot that I had a grove in the graveyard when he brought out the phantasmal -> Kokusho engine and I think we both forgot about image's targeting clause, because I was thinking since it was a 5/5 it can't be killed by a fire in response to him re-casting recurring nightmare.

LazyEyes

05-24-2012, 12:46 PM

Playing Tao's list online last night, came across a weird version of the deck. It was GUb with intuitions, brainstorms, jace, palinchron, recurring nightmare, kokusho, therapy, explorer, eternal witness, and phantasmal image

I totally punted.
Yeah I played against that same BUG explorer too it went something like this....no Green Sun Zenith though.

2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Forest
4 Intuition
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Palinchron
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Unearth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer

Kich867

05-24-2012, 03:21 PM

Yeah I played against that same BUG explorer too it went something like this....no Green Sun Zenith though.

2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Forest
4 Intuition
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Palinchron
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Unearth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer

The palinchron here is a means for infinite mana? I don't really understand what that is supposed to accomplish, unless the goal is to infinite them out with Kokusho.

Anusien

05-24-2012, 03:45 PM

Palinchron + Phantasmal Image is infinite mana (if you have seven lands, anyway). If you add Recurring Nightmare, you can infinite them.

Making infinite mana in many decks would be incredible because it would let you play a bunch of expensive cards. If you've already got 7 lands, I question the utility.

Tao

05-24-2012, 04:50 PM

The goal seems to be to produce infinite Mana with either Recurring Nightmare + Palinchron or Phantasmal Image + Palinchron. Intuition is a key card. Then use the Mana to go infinite with Witness / Recurring Nightmare to play your whole graveyard again (infinite Brainstorm or Intuition) and kill with Kokusho. Should go without saying that this version just dies to RUG. Also Dark Confidant is bad in this deck, even more in a version that already has Jace, Brainstorm, Nightmare, Intuition and Unearth. But I won't say it is a bad idea in general, it just needs fixing. Cutting Confidants should be step#1.

Star|Scream

05-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Cast palinchron, untap.
Cast Recurring nightmare
Recur e-witness, target brainstorm
cast brainstorm
cast Recurring nightmare
Recur palinchron, untap

repeat. Draw through your deck until you hit a kokusho

It's very susceptible to extirpate, but then they can just drop jace.

I was sitting there wondering why in the heck he was imaging my explorers until he starts pulling out more basics than I had! Ugh!

Tao

05-24-2012, 06:38 PM

One extremely cool thing about Intuition that I remember from playing GBu Survival is that it can grab 3 Cabal Therapies to annihilate hands which is great against Combo and very useful against Control. The deck seems interesting.

I really don't understand the Confidants though. They should be GSZs, 100%. With so many Recurring Nightmares Explorer is more important for his version than for normal Nic Fit. For example in your game, relying on your opponent to play Veteran Explorers to copy them seems not like the most reliable plan. It also grabs Witness which is a key card and with Fierce Empath it could even get the Plainchorn (Kokusho too).

hyperchord24

05-25-2012, 10:27 AM

If you generate a billion mana and are casting pallincron over and over, wouldn't you just cast something like blue sun's zenith or brain freeze?

Star|Scream

05-25-2012, 10:54 AM

If you generate a billion mana and are casting pallincron over and over, wouldn't you just cast something like blue sun's zenith or brain freeze?

Not a terrible idea considering with all the explorer mana you can emergency BSZ yourself for several cards as well

Maybe remove the bobs for a secondary kill.

[reptiLe]

05-25-2012, 11:51 AM

Not a terrible idea considering with all the explorer mana you can emergency BSZ yourself for several cards as well

Maybe remove the bobs for a secondary kill.

Seriously?

You're much better off playing something like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (or something that can win you the game in 1 turn with infinite mana), at least it's zenithable and it actually -does- something when you're not going off... like alpha striking, making wrath effects quite unprofitable, or turning Pernicious Deed into a one-sided geddon

p.s. no, I'm not suggesting his inclusion, I don't really care about the deck either since I mainly play storm anyway, but seeing freeze as a possible inclusion made me wtf aloud in the office.

Star|Scream

05-25-2012, 12:00 PM

;644889']Seriously?

You're much better off playing something like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (or something that can win you the game in 1 turn with infinite mana), at least it's zenithable and it actually -does- something when you're not going off... like alpha striking, making wrath effects quite unprofitable, or turning Pernicious Deed into a one-sided geddon

p.s. no, I'm not suggesting his inclusion, I don't really care about the deck either since I mainly play storm anyway, but seeing freeze as a possible inclusion made me wtf aloud in the office.

What are you talking about? The deck doesn't even run GSZ, and it only needs one copy of BSZ in the deck. Does your boss know you're nerdraging at work?

[reptiLe]

05-25-2012, 12:38 PM

Right, I skipped a step :P
My flow of thoughts started from this post:

I really don't understand the Confidants though. They should be GSZs, 100%.

Since I agree I somehow went on reading giving it for granted :)
Ok, it's a singleton, but if you aren't playing gsz it'll be stuck in your hand more often than it being actually useful (i.e. winning games you otherwise wouldn't have won) because you're too short on mana for it to make any difference

In any case, just random opinions, didn't mean to bash if that was the idea I gave.

Does your boss know you're nerdraging at work?
Luckily I was at home by the time I read this one, a wtf can somehow be explained, a LoL is much tougher :P

Star|Scream

05-25-2012, 12:43 PM

I just pictured some dude in my office going nuts about a post someone made on a website... "Brain freeze? WTF is he thinking? OMG NOOB" <table flip> haha

p.s. I think the BSzenith would be better than brain freeze since you can emergency target yourself if needed.

;644910']Right, I skipped a step :P
My flow of thoughts started from this post:

Since I agree I somehow went on reading giving it for granted :)
Ok, it's a singleton, but if you aren't playing gsz it'll be stuck in your hand more often than it being actually useful (i.e. winning games you otherwise wouldn't have won) because you're too short on mana for it to make any difference

In any case, just random opinions, didn't mean to bash if that was the idea I gave.

Luckily I was at home by the time I read this one, a wtf can somehow be explained, a LoL is much tougher :P

The Spanish Tunnel King

05-27-2012, 01:06 PM

Hey guys.

I thought i'd chime in as the thread seems a bit 'bluer' than before, so I feel as though I can share my list. I was working on a rock list, with a blue splash for gifts ungiven for a little while, then was quite pleased when someone won something with something similar (minus the splash for gifts), and it'd be great to get some feedback from people with more experience of the deck. I've very consciously tried to keep it as focused as possible, and there are no 'Timmy' style kills, just using gifts for value or to set up graveyard shenanigans. So here it is:

3 Sensei's divining top

2 Academy rector
1 Deranged hermit
1 Dryad arbour
2 Eternal witness
1 Grave titan
1 Kitchen finks
1 Sun titan
4 Veteran explorer
2 Wall of blossoms

1 Oblivion ring
3 Pernicious deed
1 Recurring nightmare

3 Gifts ungiven
1 Path to exile
1 Swords to plowshares

4 Cabal therepy
2 Green sun's zenith
3 Innocent blood
1 Maelstorm pulse

3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Phyrexian tower
2 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical island
4 Verdent catacombs
2 Windswept heath

Sideboard (largely terribad)
1 Tormod's crypt
3 Ethersworn cannonist
1 Gaddock teeg
3 Kitchen finks
1 Orzhov pontiff
1 Wickerbough elder
1 Leyline of the void
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

This is about the 4th serious effort at the deck, and I did a lot of testing. A 'standard' gifts pile (vs aggro, say) would be Sun titan (I like to call him a FUN titan) / Eternal witness / Deed / Recurring nightmare, which works at 6 mana, so it makes gifts one of the most awesome topdecks, enabling a complete set up of graveyard and hand in one shot. It also has emergency uses i.e. Swords / path / innocent blood / pulse and some more .... esoteric piles. In my mind the 'free' slots in the deck are the 2nd wall of blossoms and the grave titan (maybe these should be something else, like an ooze and a green sun or something...). Its also possible that the 2nd tower could be a volraths stronghold, but getting instant speed deeds from saccing rectors is literally insane. As I'm finding that they are actually really good at defending from swords to plowshares, because having creatures exiled is stronger vs me than more normal builds The deck is still weak to combo and a little bit bad against burn, so also if anyone could think of interesting piles vs them, that would be sweet. I even had 1 timely reinforcements on the board, which was actually really good. I wonder why I took it off? :). The finks are mainly on the board vs burn, but also I tend to board the gifts out g3 if they bring in loads of graveyard hate and put the finks in. It usually catches people out....

So please please, comments / suggestions / non-Timmy ideas ideas really welcome. Do we really just have to autolose to combo? :(

The Spanish Tunnel King

Kich867

05-27-2012, 03:32 PM

We most certainly don't have an auto-lose to combo, at least my list doesn't. Post-board I am packing 4x Duress, 2x Hymn, 3x Surgical Extraction, 4x Cabal Therapy, and crypts depending on the deck..

Blue is an interesting splash, though I probably wouldn't opt for Gifts Ungiven, I'd be packing Fact or Fiction, which is something a list earlier had been running to what he said good effect. I have yet to test that build though, Fact or Fiction does seem to provide an absurd benefit to the deck. I often find that my only real "issue" is that I start top decking against Stoneblade while they do some assortment of: Brainstorm, fetch, snapcaster brainstorm, jace, brainstorm, stoneforge for sword of feast and famine, go nuts etc.

Although on second thought, Gifts Ungiven might be better than Fact or Fiction.. it guarantees you're getting what you want, and a pile like: Eternal Witness, Kokusho, Recurring Nightmare, Volrath's Stronghold would be rather nuts.

I would probably make a build of something like this:

//Creatures: 12
2x Eternal Witness
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Trygon Predator
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grave Titan

//Spells: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deeds
2x Recurring Nightmare

//Planeswalkers: 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 23
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island

(It feels really, really good when you just ballpark a list off the top of your head, then go back and count to see what you need to cut and you hit 60 cards exact :laugh:)

That actually looks rather effective.

HPB_Eggo

05-27-2012, 04:31 PM

Kich867

05-27-2012, 05:22 PM

@The Spanish Tunnel King: Running four colors just doesn't seem doable at the moment. Maybe you've found differently, but I've even had problems on three colors against some decks, i.e. Death and Taxes w/ Wasteland/Port.

Beyond that, it certainly doesn't seem bad. Gifts seems like a great card to grab part way through the game. My only real complaint about it would be it's weakness to graveyard hate and that it's too slow to help you stabilize against some of our poorer match-ups towards the beginning of the game.

Probably needs some tuning, but it certainly looks interesting.

In not-at-all-related news, I'm currently tuning a GBr list that focuses more on mana sinks than huge creatures, only running one that costs more than four. Instead, the ramp from Explorer can be used for things like additional SDT activations, Punishing Fire, and a couple other neat little tricks. I'll put it up here for you guys to take a look at when I'm done testing it a bit more.

I honestly feel that this may be one of the smarter approaches. I often look at my deck and really evaluate the use of big drops--I win almost every game on the back of Thrun + Sweepers and removal. Thrun is -always- my goal: destroy their hand, land thrun, win the game. Though if I went back to GBr I'd undoubtedly still drop a Broodmate Dragon in as I always felt that Broodmate Dragon was -far and away- the best finisher for the deck.

Red, to me, also has some of the best options against combo: Pyrostatic Pillar is an absolute bomb, as is REB.

I find that one of the highlights of running a Veteran Explorer setup is that we can pop deeds for stupidly high numbers, we can play and pop it for 3 or 4 on the same turn.

Punishing Fires seems really good too, I did limited testing with it and wasn't thrilled, but it sure does seem to answer things that we have a lot of problems dealing with (namely, planeswalkers).

HPB_Eggo

05-27-2012, 05:43 PM

I honestly feel that this may be one of the smarter approaches. I often look at my deck and really evaluate the use of big drops--I win almost every game on the back of Thrun + Sweepers and removal. Thrun is -always- my goal: destroy their hand, land thrun, win the game. Though if I went back to GBr I'd undoubtedly still drop a Broodmate Dragon in as I always felt that Broodmate Dragon was -far and away- the best finisher for the deck.

Red, to me, also has some of the best options against combo: Pyrostatic Pillar is an absolute bomb, as is REB.

I find that one of the highlights of running a Veteran Explorer setup is that we can pop deeds for stupidly high numbers, we can play and pop it for 3 or 4 on the same turn.

Punishing Fires seems really good too, I did limited testing with it and wasn't thrilled, but it sure does seem to answer things that we have a lot of problems dealing with (namely, planeswalkers).

I'm also toying around with a few other mana sinks, mainly Kessig Wolf Run and Bonfire of the Damned, with Wolf Run as a singleton and Bonfire as a 1- or 2-of. I'm kind of liking keeping the deck at one or two creatures with CMC > 4.

It also kind of limits you to big creatures that can be GSZed, but I'm really not seeing the problem there, especially in red. Broodmate Dragon is a great finisher, and Primeval Titan can be really scary when you use it to fetch Wolf Run and swing for tons, as is epitomized by Wolf Ramp in standard.

Maybe not the best approach, but I'm at least going to go through all the motions and test it properly. Only time can really tell where it's better, if anywhere.

Kich867

05-27-2012, 06:21 PM

I'm also toying around with a few other mana sinks, mainly Kessig Wolf Run and Bonfire of the Damned, with Wolf Run as a singleton and Bonfire as a 1- or 2-of. I'm kind of liking keeping the deck at one or two creatures with CMC > 4.

It also kind of limits you to big creatures that can be GSZed, but I'm really not seeing the problem there, especially in red. Broodmate Dragon is a great finisher, and Primeval Titan can be really scary when you use it to fetch Wolf Run and swing for tons, as is epitomized by Wolf Ramp in standard.

Maybe not the best approach, but I'm at least going to go through all the motions and test it properly. Only time can really tell where it's better, if anywhere.

How many Groves do you run?

The Spanish Tunnel King

05-28-2012, 08:17 AM

Well thanks for the feedback guys :).

We most certainly don't have an auto-lose to combo, at least my list doesn't. Post-board I am packing 4x Duress, 2x Hymn, 3x Surgical Extraction, 4x Cabal Therapy, and crypts depending on the deck..

Blue is an interesting splash, though I probably wouldn't opt for Gifts Ungiven, I'd be packing Fact or Fiction, which is something a list earlier had been running to what he said good effect. I have yet to test that build though, Fact or Fiction does seem to provide an absurd benefit to the deck. I often find that my only real "issue" is that I start top decking against Stoneblade while they do some assortment of: Brainstorm, fetch, snapcaster brainstorm, jace, brainstorm, stoneforge for sword of feast and famine, go nuts etc.

Although on second thought, Gifts Ungiven might be better than Fact or Fiction.. it guarantees you're getting what you want, and a pile like: Eternal Witness, Kokusho, Recurring Nightmare, Volrath's Stronghold would be rather nuts.

I would probably make a build of something like this:

//Creatures: 12
2x Eternal Witness
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Trygon Predator
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grave Titan

//Spells: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deeds
2x Recurring Nightmare

//Planeswalkers: 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 23
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island

(It feels really, really good when you just ballpark a list off the top of your head, then go back and count to see what you need to cut and you hit 60 cards exact :laugh:)

That actually looks rather effective.

Yeah, its an interesting take. But I feel like white is worth the colour just because of the Sun titan (which in my mind is easily the most abusive element in my setup, as well as being a stand-alone threat). That and some rather naughty spot removal. I did have a heavier white splash (with more reviellaks/removal etc) but it didnt work so well, but maybe BUG would be more stable... I guess I like to think of my deck as straight Green/black with a heavy white splash and a tiny blue splash... But the pile you would set up here is really far too slow, especially considering it would take multiple turns to kill people, and the low cheap spot removal count would leave you very open to creature rushes. My gameplan would be fend off turns 1-3 (spot removal/hand disruption/work up to deed {or an early deed if im lucky}) then resolve gifts ---> win. Some people concede when they see the pile. Or you still have green suns and hermits and just plain old resolving threats to win. In an ideal world at least.... :). Ohhh, and your anti-combo setup seems good. But even that would only work with a clock. I guess my problem with combo is the same as BUGstill problem with combo - Board control deck with no clock. Mine is a serious heavy control version of the deck, so it doesnt really matter how much I disrupt if they can just sit back and draw cards...

@The Spanish Tunnel King: Running four colors just doesn't seem doable at the moment. Maybe you've found differently, but I've even had problems on three colors against some decks, i.e. Death and Taxes w/ Wasteland/Port.

Beyond that, it certainly doesn't seem bad. Gifts seems like a great card to grab part way through the game. My only real complaint about it would be it's weakness to graveyard hate and that it's too slow to help you stabilize against some of our poorer match-ups towards the beginning of the game.

Probably needs some tuning, but it certainly looks interesting.

In not-at-all-related news, I'm currently tuning a GBr list that focuses more on mana sinks than huge creatures, only running one that costs more than four. Instead, the ramp from Explorer can be used for things like additional SDT activations, Punishing Fire, and a couple other neat little tricks. I'll put it up here for you guys to take a look at when I'm done testing it a bit more.

Yeah, like I say, im happy with the list with 2-3 'free' slots. I didnt have tooooooo much trouble with the manabase. Even to the point of ususally being able to fetch basics even. You dont need the blue until you either have gifts or see it as being one of your only outs, until then you play fairly straight GBw which is pretty stable (but I guess the last deck I played was RUG, so everything else seems stable to me :p). If the opponent is attacking the manabase hard, you can always finks up and ditch the gifts.

Any more ideas on piles people? Even PM me if its not appropriate to discuss it here. Good luck with the red version. Seems fun :).

The Spanish Tunnel King

RKPW

05-28-2012, 09:37 AM

I've been testing this list for a couple solid months now, at first I tried the red splash, and was pretty satisfied, then I tried a white splash, and I'm not entirely sure about it. I like both, here are the lists i've been using

red splash

3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [15]

2 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [2]

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells [20]

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

overall, i'm pretty satisfied with this list. punishing fire was good against most of the field, but i always felt i was sideboarding it out in a lot of matches. broodmate is just fun as hell to ride to victory upon, and kodama was great in testing, shroud+trample is to good to ignore.

and the white splash

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [15]

2 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [2]

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells [20]

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

a little bit more focused on abusing recurring nightmare, i feel that there should be at least one life from the loam for extra value with nightmare. i've never actually kokusho'd someone and lost a game. feels a little win more, but not entirely sure what the best choice should be. maybe, -1 kokusho, -1 edict, +2 swords to plowshares?? Sigarda is a great finisher, hard to remove and survives a sneak/show'd emrakul pretty well, with that deck being on the rise, i think the 3x edict is going to be rather good.

i feel white splash gives you a better match up against combo with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist in the board, while you get pyroblast out of the red board plus the punishing fire engine.

HPB_Eggo

05-28-2012, 11:42 AM

How many Groves do you run?

Currently, three.

Actually, thinking about it, I might as well just post the list. Keep in mind that many cards are there only to be tested, i.e. Sprouting Thrinax.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sprouting Thrinax
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bonfire of the Damned

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run

I mostly avoided planeswalkers, as they are not mana sinks. I keep trying to fit a Liliana, but, at least while testing all the stuff, there has been nothing I am willing to cut. Also, no defends against flyers makes it hard to keep her on the table.

Anyways. Still largsly in development, but this is the sort of thing I am working on.

mrorange

05-28-2012, 04:41 PM

Star|Scream

05-28-2012, 04:59 PM

In the GBw lists no one seems to be playing Vindicate over Maelstrom Pulse. Is killing multiple tokens more important for this deck than the flexibility to hit a land? Or, is this more important for keeping the manabase focused on GB? I'm just wondering what consideration is the primary drive behind this decision having not played the deck.

Yes, I can only think of a few lands we'd want to kill: Maze of ith (not needed in white splash with sigarda) maybe tabernacle. Pulse also deals with 2,3 or 4 goyfs, revokers, delvers, etc.

1337erhosen

05-28-2012, 06:46 PM

So I played in a 27 player Win-a-Mox Pearl yesterday in Clinton Township, MI and top 4'd with the following list.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Terastadon
1 Progenitus

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Duress

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Choke
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Here's a short report:

Round 1: Delver Burn
My opponent quickly admitted to never playing Legacy before when we first sat down, so I put him on Affinity or Burn. Both games involved quickly Zenithing for Kitchen Finks and playing around Daze. That deck also has no way to kill Thrun, so he beat down for victory
1-0

Round 2: Sneaky Show
Saw my opponent earlier playing Sneak and Show, so I knew what to mulligan into. I got very lucky and saw 2 Therapies and a Duress game 1, and I was able to keep her off of the combo long enough to race with an Ooze. Game 2 I board in the Blasts and Duress, and keep a hand with a Blast and Duress. I get my Duress forced and Blasted a turn 3 Show and Tell. I untap and topdeck another blast, and she has another Show and Tell, which I quickly Blast. At that point she's out of gas and I ride Ooze to victory again
2-0

Round 3:UW Stoneblade
This was against my friend Kenta Hikori, who I play against weekly at Get Your Game on in Ann Arbor. He's been play his deck a very long time, and I can't help but know this is a bad matchup and tilt pretty hard. Both games he keeps fast hands and I keep slow/do nothing lands and get beaten by Sword of Feast and Famine.
2-1

Round 4:Spiral Tide
I beat him game 1 with quick Therapies naming Merchant Scroll and Time Spiral. Game 2 goes long because I get discard but he still combos off. I Extirpate his Merchant Scrolls before his first Time Spiral, so it takes him 4 Spirals to finally play around my Blasts. Game 3 we go to time, and I have enough disruption to keep him from going off but can't beat him in 5 turns.
2-1-1

Round 5:U/B Infect
This deck was basically a standard deck that wandered into the 2-2 bracket with a player who didn't seem like the most competent pilot. Highlights of his deck included Phyrexian Crusader(Can't be P-Fired), Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus, Mana Leak, Inkmoth Nexus, Jace TMS and Mutagenic Growth. Punishing Fire beat all of his creatures and Progenitus gets there.
3-1-1

Top 8: Rogue Kuldotha Forgemaster
So this guy's playing Kuldotha Forgemaster with no Metalworkers and more lands. Game 1 he sets up a Monolith but I get a quick deed and he has no lands. Game 2 He gets a quick Forgemaster and I have no answer to Blightsteel. Game 3 was amazingly close, and involved me NOing for Proggy the turn before he can Blightsteel me out with him at 10 life. His answer is Forcefield, so on my turn I play Garruk and draw 10 cards to find Maelstrom Pulse and swing for the win.

Top 4: UW Stoneblade
Played against Kenta again, and focused hard to not tilt in the same fashion. He gets game one with multiple quick Stoneforge Mystics to which I have no answer. Game 2 He mulls to 5 and can't afford to play around Choke, which I have. Game 3 is really tight, with him finding Counterspells to stop Natural Order multiple turns in a row. I can't find a Choke, and he has Elspeth and Jace on the table. In this position I assume I am very far behind, but I slowly claw my way back in with Punishing Fire. The game ends with me making a greedy play to kill Elspeth with Punishing Fire, which he Snapcaster-Counterspells and then he untaps and jumps the Snapcaster dealing exactly lethal. In retrospect I had that game on lock, I just played too aggressively with Punishing Fire.

Finish in 3rd, $75 store credit

Final thoughts: I really like this deck, and Natural Order was great all day. I don't know if 2 Garruk is the right number, and I don't like Liliana, so I'm looking at adding a Burning Wish package. No Scapeshift, instead Wurm Harvest and Life from the Loam to grind out control, as well as give the deck some flexible answers, which it sometimes lacks.

Star|Scream

06-02-2012, 12:53 AM

Need some tips with my deck. How does everything look? Still searching for a good sideboard. My only extreme concern is of course combo. Should I replace the duress with traps?

// Lands
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [B] Forest (1)
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [B] Mountain (1)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [B] Swamp (1)
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
2 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [US] Duress
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

unemployer

06-02-2012, 11:45 AM

Kich867

06-02-2012, 12:04 PM

It seems the current list doesn't include Recurring Nightmare anymore. Am I missing something? :confused:
Anyway, I have been playtesting the RGB build for a few months now. Any tips again G/W/x Mavericks and other Combo decks? I placed 3 thoughtseizes and 3 thought hemmorhages

For maverick just board in Perish and Pernicious Deed from sideboard, with 6 sweepers they won't make it very far.

Thought Hemorrhage doesn't seem very good; a 4 mana cabal therapy that bolts them, I'd much rather just play Duress and Surgical Extraction.

unemployer

06-02-2012, 12:12 PM

@Kich867: Thanks for the tip. I knew something was off. Need to relearn again.

What do you think are the "utility" creatures we can use? So far I see a lot of changes from Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, Primeval Titan, Kokusho, Huntmaster, Ooze, Witness, etc. Can anyone here help me which are the good ones for an RGB build?
My build includes 1 Grave Titan, 2 HMOF, 1 Ooze, 1 Kokusho, 2 Witness, 1 Kodama and 1 Acidic Slime

Kich867

06-02-2012, 12:17 PM

Stoyrm

06-02-2012, 08:48 PM

I've been playing
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

So far, i've been liking the Huntmasters and Kodama of the North Tree. I'm thinking the Wickerbough Elder should be an Acidic Slime however. 1. When you play it, you usually use the ability immediatly so they cannot answer it. 2. Instant speed removal is almost never relevant, neither is the power. 3. Hitting a land ike Academy Ruins can be really relevant.

Windux

06-03-2012, 03:18 AM

Also it has Deathtouch so it deals with all big creatures. But for a damage-race he is worse.Im going to test him.

Greenpoe

06-05-2012, 11:10 AM

M13 has at least one strong card for you guys: Mwonvuli Beast Tracker. You can now tutor up a Grave Titan or Abyssal Persecutor off a decent 2/1 body, and you can GSZ for it of course. Plus, it can tutor up Kodoma, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, and other stuff. Seems pretty good.

TheArchitect

06-05-2012, 11:22 AM

He puts the creature on top of the library though :/ which isn't awful but it is not getting you card advantage like Fierce Empath. I am not really sure how I feel about him.

Arianrhod

06-05-2012, 11:57 AM

I think that Beast-Tracker is a fine card, but, as with other tutors, he's only as good as what you're tutoring for. If you want to run him in this deck to grab Grave Titan, Acidic Slime, Primeval, etc, he's functionally worse than Fierce Empath. Empath replaces himself by grabbing your off-color 6, and all of the other cards may as well just be GSZ'd. Why would you Zenith for Tracker, to put Slime on top of your deck, when you could just Zenith out Slime instead? Seems poor to me.

If Tracker is a thing, it's in consideration of the non-green options for the deck. Cards like Abyssal Persecutor will shine with him, if that's your thing. I'm sure there are other options in non-green colors as well, although I can't think of an exhaustive list at the moment. Nighthawk does come to immediately to mind, though, as a potent 3-drop that would also be good in the Therapy -> Explorer -> Therapy line of events, which gives you three mana on turn two. It's a shame that he can't grab Rector -- I would dearly love to be able to GSZ for something to tutor Rector. But yeah... I think that he's a strong card particularly for the straight GB lists. At the point at which you start splashing, it seems like you have better options.

In other news, I've finally solidified my lists for all three color splashes. I'll post all three tonight when I'm home from work; the white list is still my favorite and primary, the red list has been refined somewhat from when I last posted it, and the blue list is brand-new and very experimental. It's certainly not performing badly in testing, but it does sometimes feel a bit clunky. If the meta continues to shift the way it has been, I might play the red list at Atlanta...but if the format swings back towards Canadian/Maverick, I'll stick with white.

metamet

06-05-2012, 12:19 PM

Isn't Fierce Empath just better than Beast-Tracker?

Beware

06-05-2012, 01:10 PM

Any thoughts on my sideboard? Chalice on 0 is for Hypergenesis and even on 1 it's pretty good against RUG as most of my 1 drops aren't that hot against them anyways. I'm expecting a lot of combo this weekend. Should I pack more hand disruption? If so, what comes out?

Land (22)

3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
1x karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
Enchantment (5)

1x Sylvan Library
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
Instant (4)

1x Darkblast
3x Swords to Plowshares
Creature (13)

1x Eternal Witness
1x Academy Rector
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sorcery (13)

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Innocent Blood
1x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalker (4)

1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
3x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (1)

1x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15)

1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thoughtseize
1x Damnation
2x Extirpate
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Rule of Law
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks
Sideboard

1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thoughtseize
1x Damnation
2x Extirpate
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Rule of Law
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks

litenkatt

06-06-2012, 06:30 AM

Seems like a lot of people has been moving out from the original deck, GBw, trying out other combinations.

I'm however still playing GBw although I haven't had too much of a success. This is how my list is looking (Pretty much copied XdeckX's deck that he posted a few pages back, with minor changes)

1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress

Sideboard

4 Extirpate
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leyline Sanctity (haven't tried this card out yet)
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Diabolic Edict

I've been playing against:

Reanimator

It's 60/40 to his favor to be honest. If he begins, he almost wins everytime as it's extremley hard to hit with cabal therapy. He entombs end of my turn, then casts a reanimate spell on his gitaxian the following turn, I try to sword it and his response is daze/fow.

Whenever I get an ooze out with forest up, he scoops.

Countryside Crusher deck(or w/e they are called)

We played like 10 games the other day and I it was 50/50. It feels like I should've won more than I did to this guy, but I had this flow of unluck. I was mana-screwed many of the games and he had the perfect draws. At least that was what it felt like, I might be wrong.

Combo(ANT, High tide)

Before sideboard, it's pretty much impossible. After sideboard I have somewhat of a chance, still it's very hard. 90/10 to their favor.

Maybe I'm just playing the deck wrong, which is likely, but I don't know. It's just too slow if you don't get a sensei out early.

Any suggestions on improvements? I would be very greatful. I'm new to the legacy format as well so I'm still learning. I am however gonna stick to this deck for quite some while since I have almost all the cards(lacking 2 bayou and a scrubland). Also, the deck is great fun to play.

XdeckX

06-06-2012, 07:30 AM

I'm still running the GBW list from a couple of pages back (mostly online since I havent had the chance to play a tournament). I still like it allot but with the rise of Sneak and Show I feel a colorswitch is required (adding Red obv.)
To be honest I hope the meta shifts in our favor a bit with the GP Gent coming up because I would hate to play against S+T all day without having a proper answer to it.
And it's not even Emrakul that's the problem with that deck. Griselbrand just puts it over the top.
Does anyone have any idea on how to properly handle that deck?

@litenkatt
AggroLoam (that countryside crusher deck) can be quite a hand full.

I haven't had much trouble with Reanimator tbh (although I haven't played against it in a while) Just keep a hand with discard, stick an ooze and keep ripping Extirpate/Extractions ;)

Star|Scream

06-06-2012, 09:56 AM

Edit:

I don't know if red is the way to go. I mean you could load up on blasts, but then sneak attack comes down and you've been durdling. They also board in leylines against us. I guess the best case scenario would be an end of turn surgical/extirpate on their intuition griselbrand and then pray they don't get emrakul out in time. But honestly they have all the time in the world against our clock.

Arianrhod

06-06-2012, 10:02 AM

Not quite -- white versions that are running Rector can sideboard Humility. I've been doing it in my white list, and while it's strange and awkward, it does actually work. I've also been experimenting with Nevermore -- if you can lock down one of their enablers, and name the other with Therapy/hopefully Surgical it, you can put the deck in a real bind. It's like any other combo deck...it needs to be prisoned out for us to beat it.

moseby

06-06-2012, 12:34 PM

I am splashing white in my build that includes 2 birthing Pod's. In my board I run both Teeg, and Peacekeeper, as well as 3 extripates. I actually all of them very useful vs sneak decks that pack no removal, or are unprepared for them. Peacekeeper should also be very good against reanimator.

Arianrhod

06-06-2012, 12:52 PM

Apologies for the double post, but I wanted to take advantage of my lunch break to actual get my decklists up, and nobody had replied yet this morning.

The White:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//SB
1x Humility
1x Nevermore
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Tsunami
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide

The white list has continued to evolve more as a control/prison deck than anything else. Humility feels awful in this deck, but it seems to be the ticket to beating Sneak/Show....or at least having a chance vs them. At the end of the day, we have a lot more 1/1s than they do. God is it awkward, but it seems to be the only thing that is capable of truly stopping them. They do have some bounce, but with Griselbrand to draw them 7 cards, they have a hard time finding it. Surgicals are murder vs them, although Leyline of Sanctity is equally good vs us, turning off Therapy. Chains is a beating for them, additionally. We do have some tools to fight them with this style of list, but it's still really hard. I'd much rather be tuning my list to squash pretty much anything else, but Show/Tell is putting up dumb enough numbers that something has to be done. I don't really want to think about what's going to happen if Hypergenesis sticks around, since that seems (on paper) like it would be about the worst matchup that one could possibly have with this deck.

Maindeck is pretty much the same, although Fleshbag is back as a nod to Show and Tell, while still maintaining utility against Canadian (and general purpose as a sac outlet for Rector). This list still annihilates Canadian Thresh -- if that's what you want to beat, this is where you want to be. Tsunami and Carpet are still ridiculous out of the board. That said, Canadian might start to get a little harder now that they're beginning to drop Spell Snare...that'll be two-three fewer dead cards in their board.

The Red:

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift
3x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Pernicious Deed

2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Phyrexian Tower
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
4x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
3x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

//SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Damnation
1x Scapeshift
1x Wandering Stream
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Regrowth

This list has changed a little. It's a bit more focused now, and I have raced burn with it on multiple occasions. The fact that its primary wincondition is based in the mana base makes it surprisingly effective against Sneak/Show. They have to counter your discard, which is amplified by Burning Wish (my god do they hate Cranial Extraction). Then you Scapeshift to victory at 7 lands while they're gasping for breath. Or they can open up with the turn 1 Show and rape you, but that's the price you pay for playing any non-blue deck. However, this list so far has the best testing against Sneak/Show of all three. It actually has an efficient clock while maintaining a higher-than-normal amount of disruption. A lot of times the raw power of the Valakut kill will carry you through a match, but if that fails, you have something like four or five other paths to victory. Also, having access to Red Elemental Blast is absurdly good right now. This is probably my favorite list for the metagame IF it continues to evolve the way it has been. If Canadian makes a resurgence, the white list is still ahead -- the ability of it to demolish Canadian must not be understated.

The Blue

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Vampire Hexmage
3x Coiling Oracle
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Life from the Loam
4x Living Wish
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2x Fact or Fiction
2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Brainstorm

1x Dark Depths
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Wasteland
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs

//SB
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Gilded Drake
1x Karakas
1x Yixlid Jailer
1x Dark Depths
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Submerge
3x Flusterstorm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Phyrexian Revoker

The primary strength of the blue list is that it can quite literally bury you in card advantage. The 2/2 Gifts/Fact suite, alongside Brainstorms and Jaces, will help make sure you always have gas. The problem that the blue list is currently having is that it durdles a lot. It is definitely not streamlined, although it certainly possess an efficient kill condition in the form of Hex/Depths, which is aided and made more flexible by Living Wish. Additionally, this version plays a Loam/Wasteland engine, intended to be tutored in a Gifts pile. Although this seems odd in an Explorer deck, it's actually be working fairly well, since many decks currently are not running many basics, if any. As a late-game lock, it has been working well -- and the 1x Wasteland is forgivable outside of Loam/Gifts. Perhaps the strongest synergy that I've been abusing in the blue list thusfar is that of Brainstorm and Coiling Oracle, which provides an alternate ramp/card advantage machine. Oracle is also amazing with Recurring Nightmare, especially when you have another Oracle or an Eternal Witness in the graveyard. The biggest challenge that the blue list faces is being sufficiently streamlined, while still being able to fight the good fight. The sheer flexibility of the Wishboard offers a bit to make up for that, sporting extra copies of Hex and Depths, alongside Karakas, Gilded Drake, Ichneumon Druid, Yixlid Jailer, and other matchup allstars. I think that I'm finally close to a working blue list, but it definitely needs some serious refinement.