[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control) [Archive] - Page 7

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 10:09 AM

@Viridia -- if you were going to basically copy my list with a few slight changes, definitely should have ran the Sun Titan over the Kokusho IMO. I mean, Kokusho is good and all, but Sun Titan is far and away the better 6-drop. Also, did you just never Rector for Nightmare? Surprised you didn't really use it -- it isn't just for Kokusho. Looping Eternal Witnesses and Thragtusk with it is just fine in most matchups. Especially E.Wit -- 2G for a regrowth every turn is back-breaking for 90% of legacy decks.

I have a Deadguy deck locally -- you learn a few tricks over time, but it's still a match that almost always goes to time. I don't think you could have done much there, although I would have never boarded out the Arena in that matchup. Arena's a serious trump in attrition mirrors.

What did you end up actually doing vs the Nic-Fit mirror? Moat stops Thrun, as does Sigarda and Baneslayer. Just couldn't find any gas? Does seem like he had a lot of things that are good in the mirror, though, as you said.

Using your Curse with your opponent's Humility in r3 is straight up hilarious. I love it. On a scale of 1-10, how tilted was he?

Gobs and Zoo are like Christmas for this deck.

@XdeckX --

Sucks that you hit Belcher round 1 =(

Bant can be a pretty awkward matchup, like Deadguy -- it can just go, and go, and go.

Rifter dude sounds awesome.

Pox isn't usually too bad - it all revolves around how many Explorers you have/can find, and Sigarda. Also, they hate having their hand screwed with -- they'd much rather be on the other side of that.

Have you considered the Red version with Burning Wish? That sounds like it might suit your playstyle a little more.

@Nihilis -- I don't really have much to say about the straight G/B version, sadly, although I'm sure Qweerios will give you some good feedback whenever he drops by.

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While everyone else was having fun at Ghent, I was playing at Mythic Games in Elmira. They're kind of a Jupiter Games-lite....smaller crowd, but all of the ringers from Jupiter show up, so it's still a really high-skill event. I played what is I'm sure going to be a controversial Red list (but I got 2nd with it, so hear me out =D )

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scapeshift

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Pernicious Deed

4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
5x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//SB
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Scapeshift
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Thoughtseize
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Damnation
1x Reanimate
1x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Reforge the Soul

Yep. 0 fetchlands. But it worked.

I was working on the deck Thursday night, because I was fairly sure I was going to play it on Saturday. Mythic is known for having an absurdly high amount of Maverick in its meta -- last time I was up there, it was literally 2/3 of the room! As such, I didn't want to play the white version since I haven't really fixed that yet, and I also didn't want to play BUG because it's still a little too untested. I'd at least played the Red version in a few events before, and I figured that hey, it has a strong enough combo finish that if I get paired vs some random decks, it won't matter. So I was tinkering with the manabase, which is something I've never actually been happy with for this particular version. It needs a lot of mountains to make Valakut work, but then there's never enough room for sufficient basics, fetches, the Two Towers, etc. So I decided to try it without fetches, and see what happened. To better facilitate this, I upped Wood Elves to a 3-of. Much to my surprise, it worked admirably in goldfishing. Then I took it on Cockatrice and tested with some locals -- Cockatrice is notorious for having somewhat poor randomization matrices, which usually means everyone gets mana flooded to hell and back -- no problems there, either. I decided to try it and see what happens.

I wanted a 2nd Stomping Ground where the 3rd Mountain ended up being....but the store didn't have one, and neither did my friend who plays Animar EDH -- he had it proxied!

Reforge the Soul was a test, which never actually got used, so it's going to get cut. Theoretically it's fine, but practically speaking, it was pretty meh. I'm probably going to test a Night's Whisper there instead.

R1: Tony with Deadguy.

Tony and I live like 5 minutes from each other, and we seriously play each other first in every freaking event we go to. It's dumb. Game one he makes a fast Baneslayer after some disruption. I can't find anything to answer it, and I just die. Yes, he stole that technology from me. Game two I come out with a ton of ramp, and Scapeshift him on like turn 5 for more life that he's got....conveniently 1-2 turns before death, and 1 turn before a baneslayer hit which would have made my Valakut math a lot more painful. Game three he sadly mulls to 5 and he's never in it....I just goldfish him on turn 4.

R2: White Staxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I had seen one of my car playing vs him the round before, so I knew what he was on going in. I figured I had a good matchup since I could just ramp ramp ramp Deed lololol, but I definitely forgot that Armageddon was a card...

Game one took 35 minutes. No joke. He was a very slow, deliberate player, and while he wasn't really slow-playing ie judge call, he definitely took his time. Which, while playing Stax, that adds up. He made a quick Chalice@1, but then failed to make more land drops, and kind of stared at me for a while. I Zenithed out an Explorer and sacced him to Tower for a Huntmaster. He dropped a Ghostly Prison and a Crucible, while I drew a Maelstrom Pulse. Now, I had a choice -- I could either go aggro, blowing up the Prison and just punching as much as I could, or I could go control and nuke the Crucible. I opted for aggro, and beat him down to 9ish before he dropped a Knight of the Reliquary. He'd been wastelocking my duals, but huzzah for playing a deck with 10 basic lands. I ended up on the flipper plan -- switching between 0 spells and 2, to shock him with Huntmaster every other turn. I zenithed for a 2nd Huntmaster somewhere along the way, and at one point I had Ravager Ravager to his Knight, while he sat at like 1 life. I tanked for a second, remembered that Stax plays Maze of Ith, played two spells to flip back, and passed. He Knighted for Tabernacle EoT, untapped, tanked, Armageddoned, and played Tabernacle back with Crucible. Well fuck.

Later that day, I found out that he hadn't bought the Maze of Ith for the deck yet, and if I'd just swung I would've won. Awkward.

Game two I come out stupid fast into a turn 2 Thragtusk. He O-Rings it. I silently laugh maniacally as I pulse his O-Ring and proceed to smash face. He blows up the world, but doesn't have Crucible or Tabernacle this time -- he was hoping to sick rips the Tabernacle so as not to die, I think. He doesn't get there. We look at the clock, which has like 15 seconds left on it, shrug, and draw.

R3: Sam Black's Zombardment.

I was pretty interested going in to this round. I'd never played against the deck, and I wasn't sure I was scared of it. Deed is kind of a card, after all.

Game one, he showed me why this thing is a deck. I still won, but it was scary as hell. I led off turn one with Valakut. He just gave me a look and asked if he was being trolled (note that we've played before, and I was playing the Rector build). I shrugged, and passed back. He made some zombies while I made some lands. I deeded away his everything when he had a Bombardment and like 3 duders (two of which were Gravecrawlers. Ergh). He rips a Carrion Feeder, which I have to Deed away again, or I'm going to get punched for like 12 next turn. He spins his wheels for a few turns while I make more land drops and build up a board presence with Broodmate. He drops Lingering Souls, a Blood Artist, and some more shit. I Burning Wish for Scapeshift and kill him without having to attack into Artist.

Game two is a slaughter. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I know he was never really in it. I seem to recall him keeping a really slow, durdly hand, while I had a fast Scapeshift.

R4: I need to win here to be able to ID the last round. The gods reward me with Merfolk. This was actually my first time playing vs the new Fish decks in a tournament....Master definitely adds a lot to it.

Game one was an absolute massacre in my favor. He makes some fishmen, I burning wish for Damnation and kill them all. He has two Wastelands and I have a Valakut in hand, so I bait him with two dual lands, which he blows up. I E-Wit for Damnation, then Burning Wish for Tsunami as I don't have quite enough for Valakut yet. He has like 8 islands, which all go boom. Unfortunately he did have a Vial on 2, but it still really crippled him. He Vialed in a Master, which eventually got Damnationed once he added a second merfolk to his roster. Then I Scapeshifted for like 36.

Game two was much closer. He mulled to 5, but he had a double Mutavault into Master keep. I could answer his creatures, but the Mutavaults were causing issues. I REBd his first Master, and then I believe I also REBd a Coralhelm later on. He was representing lethal, so I had to draw off of Top and Zenith'd out Thragtusk. He submerged it (lol), and swung in. I traded the beast off with something, replayed Tusk, and bought more time. Finally with an empty board and an empty hand, but like 10 lands in play, I ripped Scapeshift off the top of my deck like a champ and my mountains jizzed in his face for upwards of 30.

R5: ID

Top8: Death and Taxes.

I was profoundly less worried about this matchup than I am when I play the white version. He makes some durdles, including a Revoker on Deed, and tries to Port the ramp deck. I go nuts with land drops, Scapeshift, and trolololo all the way home. Game two he has an obnoxious start with Vial, where he vials in Revoker on my Top, so I don't have a chance to respond. This slows my development by a turn, as he'd Wasted my first green source. I had another one floating on top of my deck, which I was planning to draw off Top, Therapy, drop green -> Explorer -> Therapy. I shrug off his disruption and ramp anyway, while he makes a Mom and a Serra Avenger with a Jitte on it. I make a Primeval Titan, who brings me to 4 mountains with a Valakut in play. Next turn I drop a mountain for turn, swing, and my colorless lands kill his Mom and his Revoker. He uses Jitte to kill my Titan with his Avenger, and then angry mountains happen and he dies quickly.

Top4: Virudgiris's RUG list

While looking over my decklist before starting, my opponent noted softly to himself, "Thragtusk? is that even a real card?" You can probably guess what's going to happen here....

I lead off with an Explorer while he does the RUG thing and sits there sculpting and waiting to be annoying. He makes a pair of Goyfs, and I keep staring at him with that Explorer. My hand was spicy, but my deck was refusing to draw me a single land -- I'd had two in my opener. He was too scared of my Explorer to swing, so I had a G - Moat on my side. Eventually I found a Therapy, which set off the Explorer, when let me play a Wood Elves, which chumped. Then two more Wood Elves, which also chumped. Then a Pulse for the Goyfs, which meant that the Ooze that had joined the team was still coming. I had a string of like 6 turns where I just kept making chumpers every turn while sitting at like 4 life. Eventually I GSZ'd for Thragtusk, then I finally hit a Burning Wish for a Scapeshift and won with like 48 damage on the stack.

Game two was much more of a blowout in my favor. My opponent was looking really tilted, and I don't think that helped things for him. I don't remember much of this game, but I know it was quick, compared to the long, drawn-out affair of the first game.

Finals: Metalworker

This wasn't even a match, it was just a slaughterfest. He went like turn 1 Chalice for 1, turn two Metalworker, turn 3 Karn -> eat your forest. I just scooped.

Game two was another Chalice on 1, a Revoker on Deed, a Rishadan Port while I couldn't find ramp, and then eventually a Wurmcoil ftw. I also durped hard here and blew my first Wish on a Thoughtseize when he'd just played Chalice on 1 the previous turn. Blargh. This is basically unwinnable anyway, so whatever. The only way to win vs that deck is to go nuts with ramp and then Scapeshift FTW -- with any other hand, you just die.

Top 8 had prize split and were just playing for invitational points, so I walked out with 125 credit, some of which got used on a sexy Japanese pack-foil Cabal Therapy (my second!). There definitely need to be some tweaks here, but overall I'm very pleased with how it played.

And for everyone who says that Valakut is unnecessary and win-more, try it. It won me a full 75% of my games, and a good number of them were literally games I couldn't have won any other way. PFire builds are all well and good, but IMO Valakut is head-and-shoulders above it. Having an I-win button is not to be underestimated.

Also, Wood Elves for MVP. It's so freaking sexy to tap out for a Wood Elves, grab a Forest or a dual untapped, and then use that land to spin Top EoT.

I'll be back to the white version for my local tomorrow night and for another event at a local store on Saturday. Although things are subject to change, I've used the open slot main (which was a Garruk Relentless that did nothing but disappoint me) to move the Angel of Despair maindeck, and then I'm testing 2x Mindcensor in the sideboard. I'm not sure how the Angel will work maindeck, but I want to try it. The original thought of using her in the board vs Sneak/Show didn't turn out to be a great one, since they pretty much refuse to Show and Tell vs the Rector version anyway postboard.

XdeckX

07-23-2012, 10:52 AM

@Arianrhod: I acutally traded/purchased the missing cards for the scapeshift nicfit as that was basically the only build I had not completed.
Perhaps I will run a GB aggro list with 3 Abyssals first. I've been wanting to try that as well...

I put a GBu list together for sunday but decides against playing anything since I didnt feel like playing 8/9 rounds in the €1500 legacy tournament nor did I want to couch up €12 to play 8 man single elimination for a Force of Will.
Got to test it against RUG and Zombi Bombardment. It was fun to play with although I played like a complete dumbass. I was tired from the entire weekend and it was all just for fun anyway.

Regarding Pox... I just hate that matchup because I hate loosing lands which prevent me from playing my biggies. My opponent didnt really have the best build (I never saw Sinkholes) but was running The Rack which were kinda annoying (dealing allot in doubles and redirecting damage to Elspeth is also bad)

Right now I also have Lands.dec completed so I might play that in a tournament/FNM for a change.

The Rifter dude was really awesome. He had a list for things he wanted to do with the list throughout the tournament. Stuff like hardcasting Slice and Dice and hardcasting Eternal Dragon. I got to help him out in that regard by providing loads of lands :)

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 01:05 PM

Can't blame you RE not doing side events. Especially if it wasn't a win-a-box, but win-a-Force. That seems less good.

Lands is hilarious to play, as long as there's a lot of dual lands in your area. I built lands once as well to mess around with....then I realized that my meta is full of decks that play a lot of basic lands (gee, who do I have to blame for that, I wonder =_=). Oh well.

Screw the Rack. Card is crazy obnoxious. It's always irritating to realize that you're just never going to cast your top-end creatures. But if you make that realization and board them out, you should be fine.

I've never liked Abyssal in the history of ever. I mean, you're welcome to try it, and maybe it'll suit your playstyle, but I've always thought it was just awful.

Also, apparently, according to this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24288-ELL-July-40-Players-Results-Decklist-Player-Profiles-Meta-Videos!&p=660082#post660082

I wasn't the only one playing Nic Fit Red this weekend and doing well with it. Anyone here have any idea what the list looks like, or are we on the "wait for the TO to post things" plan?

Viridia

07-23-2012, 01:22 PM

Windux

07-23-2012, 02:15 PM

I played GBw at the GP and went 3-3-drop.

I played Arianhords lists with little tweaking:
-1 Fierce Empath
-1 kokusho
-1 Phyrexian Arena
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Darkblast
+3 Lingering Soul

R1: Elves
1-2: He topdecked Glimpse one turn before i could finish him

R2: Sneak and Show (Won against him at a GPT the day before)
I have 3 Therapys, rip his hand off and can go with Rector->Humility the next turn if I draw a land.
He just draws a card (lands+Ponder in hand), ponders for Show and Tell+Emrakul and I don't find a land.

The other games were not that awesome ;)

But MVP all the time was Lingering Soul!
It is such a great card. What? It's not that great lategame, because cc5 for 4 power flying is not enough? Well of course, but good luck to get there against Merfolk, Maverick or Goblins.
Round 2 or 3 Lingering Soul + Flashback or flachback next round is so much better than just 1 big giant against 3-4 creatures on the other side of the battlefield. Also you can cast Lingering Soul one turn earlier most of the time.

It's so damn unnecessary that your tokens die, if you blow up Deed, because you wipped to board anyways and Soul could have helpep you, to get there.

Megadeus

07-23-2012, 02:30 PM

Hey guys. This is my first posting on here but I have been lurking for a bit. I havent been playing for more than 2 or 3 months in legacy so I am still a bit green. I first started this deck modeled after Durwards BG list and am now trying out my own thing. Well I have trouble against control so I figured splashing red would be the best color splash to fight them. So here's my current list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Grave Titan
1 Dragon Broodmate
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Durress

Still a bit raw and I feel like it is missing something. Also I want to drop 1 of the Kitchen Finks and the Master of the wild hunt but I am not sure what for. I was thinking Thragtusk and Maybe a 1-of Disciple of Bolas?

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 03:01 PM

Megadeus

07-23-2012, 03:23 PM

Looks like you've got a serious case of 1-of-with-no-tutors-itis -- best run before IBA pops up out of nowhere and kills you.

On a serious note, let's get rid of some of that. I'm guessing you're working towards just a straight Jund version, without PFire or Valakut and their subsequent deckbuilding requirements.

My suggestions:
Maindeck:

-2 Finks
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Grave Titan

+1 Primeval Titan
+1 Thragtusk
+2 Huntmaster

-2 Liliana
-1 Garruk
-1 Diabolic Edict
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Top
+4 Lightning Bolt

-1 Verdant Catacombs
-4 Misty Rainforest
-1 Swamp

+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Bayou
+1 Taiga
+1 Badlands

This gives you a more stable manabase, a better finisher engine in Primeval -> Volrath's/Phyrexian combo, more Huntmasters, which are a much better Kitchen Finks, and Lightning Bolts, which are much better removal, and can also provide reach. You definitely want a 3rd Top and the 2nd Witness. I'm assuming that the Mistys are for budgetary constraints, so feel free to ignore me on that -- but there's no reason otherwise to run G/U over G/R in a Jund deck.

Let's look at the sideboard:
Holy crap that's a ton of dredge hate.

-4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Sword of F/F
-1 E.Plague
-1 Perish
-2 Surgical
-2 Duress

+4 Thoughtseize
+2 Extirpate
+2 Virtue's Ruin
+3 Carpet of Flowers

Extirpate is better than Surgical, because Sneak and Reanimator play counterspells. Thoughtseize is better than Duress/moving the Inquisitions to the board, because you don't care about the 2 life. You do care about not being able to take Sneak's Emrakul and then Extirpate it away. Carpet gives you some good game against Miracles, blue combo, RUG, and Stoneblade. Virtue's Ruin is strictly better than Perish vs Maverick, and it doesn't kill you stuff. The only thing it doesn't kill that you care about is Thrun, but you can just chump him all day, and a lot of Maverick lists have actually dropped Thrun anyway.

If you've got any questions, fire away =)

Alright! Well, my issue with Lightning Bolt is that it is good vs little creatures, but isn't this deck already good vs little creatures?

Also Liliana just seems so good against almost everything it would be difficult to drop those... Garruk I can definitely see though.

Does this deck really need a 3rd top? You never want more than one and it seems too slow against combo to really do anything.

As for the mana base, I am running a bit of a budget base at the moment and am working towards switching my mistys for foothills. Also I'm not the biggest fan of the Stronghold.

Primeval Titan over Grave? Grave Titan is not tutorable, but stabilizes a board so hard and is MUCH more difficult to answer.

As for the SB, it is very very rough. My local Meta is a decent amount of dredge (Last wednesday I played it twice in 4 swiss rounds), and a decent amount of control with some reanimator and Maverick splashed in. Thats the reason I have the mass amount of GY hate. I figure that pernicious deed already just beats the crap out of the fair decks, so I need to board for control and unfair stuff. What does carpet of flowers really do against control though? Most of the time I am making enough mana, its just beating a resolved Jace or a Miracled Entreat/Terminus. I do agree with Virtues rain however. And of course Thoughtseizes are the best but due to budgetary reasons may be out of the question sadly.

Why is everyone on Primeval Titan here? I have never tried it, but it just doesn't seem like it really does anything. Like Sigarda is tough to answer, Deranged Hermit Makes a ton of dudes, and Broodmate gives you 2 difficult to answer fliers. Why Primeval?

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 03:33 PM

Because Primeval Titan is actually next to impossible to answer. It usually gets the combo of Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower. Think of it like your version of Mother of Runes - if you get to untap, your creatures are constantly protected from removal. You can just sac anything in response to anything and then use the BB to activate the Stronghold, putting it back on top to be re-cast later. If it sticks around, it also thins the hell out of your deck, even more than it already has been with Explorer.

I recommend Bolt because it isn't just good vs creatures -- it's good vs planeswalkers, and it provides you with reach, ie, the ability to do damage without needing to attack. The Rector version and Blue version run Kokusho for the same effect, and the Scapeshift version has Valakut. Bolt kills Jace, as well as certain problem creatures like Mother of Runes and Scavenging Ooze. Being able to get rid of their Ooze ASAP is pretty important. Bolt does help out against creature decks, but it isn't -for- creature decks. To understand what I mean by that, you might need to re-read my rant a few pages back. Just look for the longest post you've ever seen =)

My problem with Liliana is that you don't have a way to break her symmetry. You're discard gas just like your opponents are. PFire can use her because they can just discard PFire and then bring it back. Some of the BUG lists like her, too, because of stuff like Loam and Darkblast.

3rd Top is important because you always want one. If you happen to hit more than one, you can just draw off it in resp. to a GSZ or other shuffle effect. You can also trick it with Deed -- draw off Top, hold priority, in resp. break Deed for whatever >1. The Deed will resolve first, killing your Top in the process...but the Top trigger will still happen, so you draw a card, and are down a top. Worst case scenario, extra Tops read 1: Cantrip.

Carpets are primarily for vs RUG, but they're also good vs High Tide, Stoneblade, and Miracles, because against those decks, you don't really want to break an Explorer unless you have to. They run a large number of basics as well as you do, and they can use the mana to drop things that are just as/more scary, like planeswalkers, Entreats for 80, Tide Tide Tide Turnabout Spiral win, etc.

Budget sucks, but is understood. If you can't get Thoughtseizes / borrow from someone, I'd say you want 4 Durress. Inquisition is better vs creature decks, but you don't board in discard vs creature decks anyway. You just miss out on the ability to hit Sneak and Reanimator where it really hurts them: their creatures. You can still take their enablers, though.

Megadeus

07-23-2012, 03:42 PM

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 03:48 PM

I like Carpet at 3, personally -- that way you tend to find them fairly regularly. I think if you start with it at 2, you're going to find that you want to see it more often ... it's pretty addictive when you're playing vs blue decks, as I think others in the thread will echo. I know Viridia just tried it out as a 4-of at Ghent...not sure how it worked for him with that many. He also switched out all 4 Explorers for them a lot of games, though, which tends to not be how I play the card....I prefer it in addition to Explorer, although I usually board out like 2 Explorers vs Stoneblade and Miracles.

Viridia

07-23-2012, 04:10 PM

Well, i figured that considering it's amazing in multiples, gets blown up by every Deed it's not bad at 4.
I side out the Explorers against blue (except tempo) simply because i noticed you often give them 2 basics, they counter your drop or discard and then go Jace + something or Jace + countermana up etc.
I never thought i didnt want to see more Carpets vs blue :p

TheArchitect

07-23-2012, 05:00 PM

Because Primeval Titan is actually next to impossible to answer. It usually gets the combo of Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower.

Ive kept up with the thread, but havent posted in a while cause I havent been playing any legacy this summer (super busy with grad classes), but prime titan getting Volraths stronghold and Phyrexian tower is amazing. In any non-recurring nightmare version of the deck, I cant think of any reason not to have it.

Also, you always want 3 tops. Top makes this deck work. I used to think it wasnt necessary but I was so so wrong.

Also @Arianrhod congrats on your finishes lately. Mythic is awesome, it is really competitive but the people there are nice and the store is run really well (and its super clean!). You'll see me up there in the fall when I go back to living in Ithaca. And I see you've met my good friend JC, and the reason why I started having to put massacre in my SB.

Arianrhod

07-23-2012, 05:09 PM

Kung Fu English

07-23-2012, 05:14 PM

Hello everyone! I recently found out about this thread from mtgsalvation's and it seems this is much more active and helpful.

While the blue version looks pretty good, it is more controlling it seems and I probably want to keep my comfort level in white. Here is my current setup:

Creature (15)
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spiritmonger
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Planeswalker (5)
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Liliana of the Veil

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Land (20)
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Gerrard's Verdict
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (2)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Choke
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation

A few things about my non-standard choices:

Ajani may be better served as just Elspeth or another creature but I think it's worth a test.

Spiritmonger seems like an odd choice I know, but it's another 5 drop which you can get on t2 with Phyrexian tower and veteran explorer, it's a zenith target, it get's around mother of runes and can block all the ground guys indefinitely. Also, while he's not particularly hard to deal with, most decks atm are not particularly prepared for him. It's tested well so far but I could see it being a Sigarda or something else instead.

Gerrard's verdict has replaced Hymn to Taurach for a few reasons. It's easier to cast honestly, as committing yourself to BB on t2 is rough on the rest of the mana base. It also still gets 2 cards. And against burn or RUG delver, you either get some of their gas or you get their land and gain life, which is highly relevant. Also helps vs sneak and show too as getting to 23 can mean the difference between winning or losing in 1 swing.

Thragtusk of course seems nuts and is probably just what this deck needed imo at 5. I feel 5 is the sweet spot of the deck if you are going the phyrexian tower route (which I am currently), though I could be convinced to run 1 tower and 1 volrath's.

TheArchitect

07-23-2012, 08:26 PM

Haha, sweet. I didn't realize that you were up that way. What are you going for in grad school? I'll be working on my Masters (and then probably doctorate) in English after a few years -- I have family ties in central PA at the moment, and there aren't exactly any good schools around here for what I work with (specifically digital mythopoesis). I was wondering why you hadn't been posting lately -- that certainly explains it, though.

And yeah, I've actually become pretty good friends with JC, Timur, Rob, and Steve. Good people up that way.

Also, if you want to annoy JC sometime, I'm pretty sure Death and taxes actually can't beat the Scapeshift Red version. Like, ever.

Im in Ithaca Colleges Doctorate in Physical therapy program. This summer was the start of the grad work so I am in Rochester at URs medical school for that.

Oh nice! I dont know Rob, but Timur and steve I know well. Timur always stomps me with MUD :( I miss ithaca, the LGS has legacy for its FNM ha!

I think I already annoyed him enough by adding darkblasts/massacres. But that red list does look really solid, and a lot of fun. If I could barrow some Taigas and badlands from friends Id definitly play it sometime.

The MUD thing actually gets me thinking, that is really bad much up for us and the deck is seeing increasing popularity, at Ghent i think I saw it was about as well represented as nic fit. Is there anything we can do (and is worth doing) to improve that match up? My first thought is pithing needle, which I am a big fan of, but a lot of the time its just going to get chaliced out. It might just be one of those MUs like storm, where its just not worth having 4 slots in your side for mindbreaktrap/creeping corrosion respectively. This isnt really something thats been discussed here very much, so what are peoples thoughts?

@Kung Foo: Welcome to The Source! Last time I checked the MTGS nic fit thread, it was labled as an "aggro" deck and Derranged Hermit was still in every list.

I dont really like the gerrads verdict. I like the reasoning of the possible lifegain, and the cost of BW, but really, targeted discard is much better for this deck since alot of cards sweep or nullify a chunk of our opponents cards. I like having 2 duress/thoughtsieze in that slot.

As awesome and nostalgic as spiritmonger is, I cant really see any justifications of running it over Sigarda. Same with Ajani over Elspeth. Ajani doesn't really seem very good in this deck since it doesnt change the board state, it relies on already having a good board state.

20 lands AND dryad arbor, seems kinda shakey, how has that been? I noticed most people have been cutting dryad arbor which is a choice I agree with.

I like your SB, its different from most peoples here but not in a bad way. I havent tested E tutor in this deck at all, but I would like to at some point. It might be a little GY hate heavy, but could be a meta thing. Still seems pretty solid.

Megadeus

07-23-2012, 09:43 PM

I dropped Dryad arbor for awhile and it is a tad underwhelming, But I have had a few times where I was wishing I had it to get with a fetch land just as a chump blocker to save my Liliana, or sacrifice to an Innocent blood or even as another cabal therapy activation. Also For whatever it is worth its not awful against Standstill.

I dont know what it is, but I just hate the E-Tutor package in general. In Maverick and everything. Its decent selection but its just annoying to not get it in your hand right away.

Kung Fu English

07-23-2012, 10:59 PM

Im in Ithaca Colleges Doctorate in Physical therapy program. This summer was the start of the grad work so I am in Rochester at URs medical school for that.

Oh nice! I dont know Rob, but Timur and steve I know well. Timur always stomps me with MUD :( I miss ithaca, the LGS has legacy for its FNM ha!

I think I already annoyed him enough by adding darkblasts/massacres. But that red list does look really solid, and a lot of fun. If I could barrow some Taigas and badlands from friends Id definitly play it sometime.

The MUD thing actually gets me thinking, that is really bad much up for us and the deck is seeing increasing popularity, at Ghent i think I saw it was about as well represented as nic fit. Is there anything we can do (and is worth doing) to improve that match up? My first thought is pithing needle, which I am a big fan of, but a lot of the time its just going to get chaliced out. It might just be one of those MUs like storm, where its just not worth having 4 slots in your side for mindbreaktrap/creeping corrosion respectively. This isnt really something thats been discussed here very much, so what are peoples thoughts?

@Kung Foo: Welcome to The Source! Last time I checked the MTGS nic fit thread, it was labled as an "aggro" deck and Derranged Hermit was still in every list.

I dont really like the gerrads verdict. I like the reasoning of the possible lifegain, and the cost of BW, but really, targeted discard is much better for this deck since alot of cards sweep or nullify a chunk of our opponents cards. I like having 2 duress/thoughtsieze in that slot.

As awesome and nostalgic as spiritmonger is, I cant really see any justifications of running it over Sigarda. Same with Ajani over Elspeth. Ajani doesn't really seem very good in this deck since it doesnt change the board state, it relies on already having a good board state.

20 lands AND dryad arbor, seems kinda shakey, how has that been? I noticed most people have been cutting dryad arbor which is a choice I agree with.

I like your SB, its different from most peoples here but not in a bad way. I havent tested E tutor in this deck at all, but I would like to at some point. It might be a little GY hate heavy, but could be a meta thing. Still seems pretty solid.

Hah, I never understood why it was in the aggro section either. And i've never run deranged hermit. Master of the wild hunt is just better due to its spot removal.

My only issue with Sigarda is the WW in it's cost really. Ajani/elspeth would be an experimental thing at this point as well, as I haven't played many games with them in the slot. I was trying a Scroll Rack/Entreat the Angels package for a while but have been underwhelmed. It would behoove me to find another 4-5 drop creature to replace this slot with. Sigarda for spiritmonger and what for the ajani placeholder? Baneslayer? meh.

20 lands plus Dryad is a misnomer from the copy paste of tapped out. It's actually 20 lands including Arbor, but dryad arbor is also listed under creatures :/. If you look closesly the lands section has an arbor in it along with the creature section, oops. But the land package has seemed fine. I wouldn't be against cutting him though as it is kind of 'meh' but if no other 1 drops in hand it can turn a hand into a keepable one I guess. I would still probably stick with 20 lands overall, however. Probably take him out for Volrath's honestly.

Re: Gerrard's verdict, another experiment that has been testing reasonably well but i'm not sold on. Inquisition would be fine as well.

The SB is a port from the last list that top 8'd an SCG a few months ago. The heavy GY hate is not so much all gy hate but also combo hate. Make them discard a piece and then extract it from their deck. Only somewhat helps the matchup vs high tide etc. I've also considered 2-3 chalice of the voids which shuts down most of the decks in the format. Ofc it shuts off cabal therapy too though...

As for enlightened tutor. I don't like the idea of running a package with 3-4 enlighteneds and a bunch of bullets to target. But the idea of 1 in the SB to help you get to your SB bullets is not unreasonable. When you NEED a choke, deed or wheel of sun/moon, you NEED one. And that is what the tutor is good for imo.

Should be doing more testing tomorrow vs probably maverick mostly which kinda sucks since it should be an easy matchup but meh take what i can get.

Zirath

07-23-2012, 11:03 PM

The MUD thing actually gets me thinking, that is really bad much up for us and the deck is seeing increasing popularity, at Ghent i think I saw it was about as well represented as nic fit. Is there anything we can do (and is worth doing) to improve that match up? My first thought is pithing needle, which I am a big fan of, but a lot of the time its just going to get chaliced out. It might just be one of those MUs like storm, where its just not worth having 4 slots in your side for mindbreaktrap/creeping corrosion respectively. This isnt really something thats been discussed here very much, so what are peoples thoughts?

Timur here; count your blessings that most MUD players are horrible. Beating Nic Fit requires some careful thought and planning since you drop as many fatties as we do. In addition, the Forgemaster builds (which are infinitely more common) are a lot more volatile than my build so it may be easier to hate on.

Instead of Needle, try Revoker. I use it very aggressively and Nic Fit can do the same; naming any Manastone or utility robot does a lot of work in this match up I am sure. In addition, Therapy works well with it so you don't have to cold read everytime.

One of the keys to beating MUD is making them stumble on mana.

TheArchitect

07-23-2012, 11:47 PM

I was trying a Scroll Rack/Entreat the Angels package for a while but have been underwhelmed.

Ive always wanted to try this in this deck. But I was thinking with noxious revival and 3-4 lilianas (and tops of course).

Sigarda can be gotten with GSZ though, and you already want WW later in the game for sun titan or planeswalkers anyways.

Fierce empath, or elspeth is what I would add with ajani out.

I have just always found sugicals/extipates/memorice was all the GY hate I needed.

The white version is a little softer to mav, so it might not be a total cakewalk.

Timur here; count your blessings that most MUD players are horrible. Beating Nic Fit requires some careful thought and planning since you drop as many fatties as we do. In addition, the Forgemaster builds (which are infinitely more common) are a lot more volatile than my build so it may be easier to hate on.

Instead of Needle, try Revoker. I use it very aggressively and Nic Fit can do the same; naming any Manastone or utility robot does a lot of work in this match up I am sure. In addition, Therapy works well with it so you don't have to cold read everytime.

One of the keys to beating MUD is making them stumble on mana.
Thanks Timur, unfortunately Revoker is not too good in this deck against anything but MUD really. Stony silence might be a good silver bullet we could use in the white versions. But again, very narrow. We might just have to accept that our hope for beating a MUD player is that they are bad at the deck, or get a hand that implodes on itself after a well hit therapy.

Zirath

07-24-2012, 12:00 AM

Thanks Timur, unfortunately Revoker is not too good in this deck against anything but MUD really. Stony silence might be a good silver bullet we could use in the white versions. But again, very narrow. We might just have to accept that our hope for beating a MUD player is that they are bad at the deck, or get a hand that implodes on itself after a well hit therapy.

Doesn't Needle suffer the same issues?

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 12:39 AM

Few quick thoughts before bed --

The biggest problem with Revoker is that it dies to Deed, and it's usually brought in vs matchups where Deed is king (Maverick, MUD [although Revoker would do better here], DnT, etc). I think that the MUD matchup is largely version-dependent -- the white version probably does much better than the red does. I have no idea how the blue version would do. Depends on the amount of discard/counters on early mana rocks, I guess. Revoker is a better idea than Needle, at least. You can always Nightmare it back.

At Atlanta I played vs Forgemaster MUD....he played Monolith and passed turn. I Pulsed it, and he kind of slumped in his chair. Then I Vindicated his Ancient Tomb the next turn, and Eternal Witness went the distance before he drew another mana source.......

Kung Fu -- welcome to the Source! I'll give some more detailed thoughts on your list tomorrow morning at work....for now, bed.

Qweerios

07-24-2012, 02:34 AM

@Arianrhod,

I understand how good Wood Elves are for Nic Fit after all the testing I did with Coiling Oracle. There is something about generating ramp with a therapy body that just hits the spot.

I am also really interested in the Valakut version seeing how Burning Wish accomplishes something similar to Gifts and REB is close to Negate. However, I am wondering if Scapeshift is really better than NO.

May I suggest a single Creeping Corrosion in your SB to fight MUD?

@Megadeus,

I don't think Bolt is any good in any version of Nic Fit, partly for the same reasons that StP isn't as good as Innocent Blood. Cheap removal + Legacy staple doesn't mean it belongs in a format-deviant deck like Nic Fit. Your early turns should be spent entirely on ramp and discard because you can handle anything your opponent throws at you later. Playing Bolt (especialy as a 4of) is underwhelming and has no synergy whatsoever with your deck's strategy. I would advise Terminate over Bolt because it is superior removal. What makes Bolt good in a red legacy deck doesn't apply to Nic Fit or any control deck for that matter. In fact, I don't think narrow removal does anything for Nic Fit aside from allowing it to stay afloat a little better. I think cards like Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder, and even Bone Shredder are better choices as they are more likely to grant you more options while still acting as solid removal.

This leads me to Gerrard's Verdict...

I am begining to understand how focal synergy is to a deck with many singletons. I don't think there is ever any reason to run Verdict > targeted discard. This is because TS/IoK/Duress makes Therapy stronger, which in turn makes explorer-triggered plays stronger, just like a snowball effect. Besides, if you want to gain life, play something like Finks/Baloth/Thrag, it will do a better job at it and will take less deck space (GSZ).

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 03:46 AM

wortwelt

07-24-2012, 06:38 AM

RE: From Ghent, just a couple notes before I am off to work. Spoiler Alert: I didn't win the GP. My throat decided to get sore on Thurday instead, which caused a cold at the GP weekend. I went there despite better judgment. Results may reflect bad play due to being on painkillers.

Deck: Nic Fit Blue

Main Event: 1-3 drop
8man 1: Out against UR Delver and Mulligans.
8man 2: Beat Miracles, out against Dredge.
6 round Legacy Win a box of Revised: 2-1-3 (yes, 3 unintentional draws.)

More detailed report later. Short version:
Deck has potential, but is veeeeeeery slow. A more midrang-y approach may possibly be good. Cabal Therapy'ing well is a huge factor. I need to play more sanctioned Legacy, since it's the best practice. Don't play GPs if you are not feeling well.

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 10:14 AM

Okay, I'm going to save reviewing KungFu's deck until the end of this post and get all the little comments out of the way first.

@Wortwelt - shame you got sick on your way =( It always sucks when you fall ill just before an event you were really looking forward to. I'd definitely be interested to hear what was working well for you and what wasn't, to the best of your ability to recall through the medication anyway.

@Qweerios - Corrosion is definitely something I've considered. The main reason I haven't been running it is because of how specific it is -- well, or Seeds of Innocence, which would probably get the nod. MUD/Affinity/Thopters are such uncommon decks that I have a hard time justifying the spot. I guess if I were to play it at Mythic again in the future, I would probably consider it just as a meta call for Timur =P Although, there's the question of whether it would even actually fix the matchup, or if we're better to just write it off as not worth the trouble.

I'll defend Scapeshift tooth and nail in the Red version. The amount of games it wins is just astonishing, and unlike NO, it can actually win the turn before you're going to die. I would have probably only won half the games I did if I was running NO instead of Scapeshift. That said, there's is an interesting idea there: running a NO in the sideboard. Being able to wish for NO to sac like a Wood Elves or something for a Primeval Titan (or something fatter still, like a Woodfall Primus or some shit) is a really, really interesting idea.

I think that for Megadeus needs Bolt to do, Bolt will do. I'd advise him to move into a Punishing Fire build eventually as his budget allows it, but I think that for a budget version, running Bolt in a straight Jund list is at the very least acceptable, if not optimal. Random dorks, Bolt, REB, and Pulse gives enough outs to Jace & friends. But yeah, I agree that Bolt will under-perform in the long-run.

I also agree RE Verdict. You could probably still make an argument for Hymn in some straight green/black builds, just because of how damaging the random discard is. But wherever possible, targeted is going to be better, because of not just the reasons that you listed, but also because it lets you sculpt what your opponent is going to do with the mana they're getting off of Explorer. That's one of the core reasons the deck works at all, IMO -- Therapy provides not only a sac outlet for Explorer, but it also controls what they're doing with their mana because on the flashback you've got at least one guaranteed hit. The best card in their hand -will- be gone (if they Brainstorm, they'll be shuffling away their best card anyway, unless they don't want lands, which is fine too).

Okay, now that that's done, @Kung Fu English:

As Architect pointed out, 20 lands including Arbor is wayyyyy too low. We're going to start off immediately by cutting Arbor, and we're going to want to cut probably 2 more cards somewhere along the way for two more lands. Hey, how about those Gerrard's Verdicts that are terrible....

-1 Arbor
-2 Verdict
-1 Verdant Catacombs

+2 Windswept Heath
+1 Savannah
+1 Plains

That actually brings you to my exact mana base, which has never given me any trouble at all. I'd also do a little diversification:

-1 Pulse

+1 Vindicate

There's no real reason not to do a 1/1 split, since you can recur with Witness. Pulse is generally the better of the two, but sometimes you really, really need to kill a land, and Vindicate is your go-to for that since you aren't running Rector. Maze of Ith out of Maverick comes to mind, as does Glacial Chasm from lands [primarily]. Academy Ruins is a bitch to deal with as well, especially vs something like Thopters...you're a Deed deck, and you really want that shit to stay gone, lol.

Sigarda is hands down better than 'Monger, as sad as it makes me to say that. With the mana base changes I'm recommending, you won't have any trouble with WW at all. You want to have WW at that time anyway because of Sun Titan. Also, don't pshaw Baneslayer. Baneslayer is actually amazing, and legacy in general is really, really ill-advised to handle her, as others in the thread will attest. I agree with you that 5 is our sweet spot. The 6-drops are still valuable because they're the atomic warheads....they rip things apart when the 5's aren't sufficient, which can happen. Also, Sun Titan + Deed. Just saying. Anyway.

-1 Spiritmonger =(

+1 Sigarda

Again, Liliana in a deck with no way to break her symmetry is bad.

-2 Liliana of the Veil

+1 Fierce Empath
+1 Garruk Relentless

Since you're running Master, I'm assuming you like the synergy between Master and Garruk. Let's emphasize that a little bit more. Both of your six-drops are non-green, which means you want a Fierce Empath to be able to tutor for them off of a GSZ.

-1 Ajani

+1 Ulvenwald Tracker

This guy's a little bit of spice. We've talked about him a little a few pages back, and dismissed him -- but that's because the lists we were talking about weren't running Garruk. Having a backup fight effect for deathtouch wolves is pretty legit, and if you happen to live the dream and punch something with a Baneslayer or a Grave Titan, well that's cool too. You aren't running Moat, so you don't really need Elspeth like the Rector builds do. One last maindeck tweak...

-1 Kitchen Finks

+1 Baneslayer Angel

Just try her out. You don't really need Finks anymore, because now we have Thragtusk, which is the card Finks wishes it was. I run two Baneslayers, but I also run Moat, so the flying is important to me....if you really wanted to put in a 2nd, I'd probably say to cut the Thrun for the 2nd copy, but I think you'll be okay with one for the moment. Garruk can tutor for it if you really need to find it....otherwise it'll just be a random good bomb for the midgame off of Top.

Now, sideboard...

You're a little heavy on graveyard hate. I'd suggest the following:

-3 Leyline
-1 Surgical
-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

+1 Extirpate
+1 Cranial Extraction
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Ichneumon Druid

Feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong -- I'm guessing that the Leylines are because of some storm in your area. You have a lot of lifegain main, so I'm imagine you're worried about burn. If that's why there were Leylines, then I'd suggest a CoP:Red, an Aegis of Honor, or putting a Leyline back in. You can hardcast it -- you don't need to run that many of them. But IMO Thragtusk has kind of invalidated Leyline as a sideboard choice. The Druid's a flex spot -- he's meant for Storm specifically, but like I said, my read might be off on that. Otherwise, Extirpate is better than Surgical....Extirpate and Cranial/Mem is how you beat Reanimator and Sneak, while being good vs every other combo deck under the sun too. Don't forget that Cranial and Mem also take things from graveyards....they're graveyard hate that's good vs other decks, unlike some other options.

That's pretty much all I've got. You might want to find room for some Carpet of Flowers in your board since you don't have an alternative ramp engine due to the white version, but that depends on your meta.

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 12:22 PM

What do you guys think of Blightning? Is it just a slower bad version of Hymn to Tourach? Killing a Jace and getting 2 cards seems like a blowout, but I may just be living in magical christmas land. As you guys can see, I am terrified of that Planeswalker. I don't think I have ever beaten any UW based control deck. I think I have only ever won 1 game against any of them.

Star|Scream

07-24-2012, 12:24 PM

I'm still trying to figure out which way I should go for my list. I have

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Lily
1 Garruk, Primal hunter

Most of the staples, no rectors, nightmare, or kokusho.

The blue splash isn't really an option as I don't have any JTMS and I'd have to trade up heavily for the trops.

But I haven't really found a straight G/B build I like, and the punishing fire build isn't that great either.

Any help would be appreciated.

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 12:27 PM

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 12:37 PM

What PFire build have you tried, Starscream? I know Tao had one some fairly large number of pages back that was pretty sweet. You do basically have the manabase for Rector, Rock, and Pod...I mean, I'd sooner trade for that stuff than for Trops, if you have trade materials. BUG is definitely outside of your range. You can't really do Scapeshift either, because that requires Taigas and Badlands. I'd say you could do straight G/B (Durwardian or Qweeriosian), Pod, Rector, or Rock from the established archetype, or you could look into Culling, Cloud, Angel, or Fauna of the various experimental ideas. I'd probably say to stick with one of the established decks though, unless you're feeling pretty adventurous. It also depends on what staples we're talking about here. Rector requires a Moat, which is a pretty expensive "staple." If you don't have access to one, you probably don't want to do Rector.

@Megadeus -- Blightning's awful, because it isn't targeted. They don't discard two target cards...they get to choose. Generally speaking, you don't want your opponent making choices for you. If you're really that scared of Jace, Bolt will get the job done. But I think that once you're more used to the deck and you're a little less scared of Jace, you'll find that there are better versions of Red than straight red (ie, PFire or Scapeshift).

EDIT

On a partially related note, the decklists from ELL are up: http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverage/top-8-decklists-ell-2012-julio

That Jund list looks absolutely atrocious. No idea how it got 2nd.

Star|Scream

07-24-2012, 12:48 PM

Yeah, I was thinking about doing GBw for Sigarda and perhaps STP but not sure which planeswalkers to use in that case. I don't really want to go into rectors because as you said Moat is the main reason to run it.

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 12:52 PM

Yeah. Sounds like you want something like this....

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Wickerbough Elder
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Dismember
3x Swords to Plowshares

3x Sensei's Divining Top

1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

//SB
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Choke
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Damnation

This is the Rock build that Chris Higashi took to the top 8 of SCG Phoenix in April. It's obviously out of date, and there's some questionable choices IMO (why does everyone insist on running Liliana with no way of breaking her, seriously). Still, it's a shell to start with. The very first thing I'd do is get rid of the Thruns for a Sigarda and a Thragtusk, but even beyond that there's a lot of updating and housecleaning to do, I'm afraid. Still, I'd say it's a good starting point for what it sounds like you want to do.

Star|Scream

07-24-2012, 01:02 PM

Yes. I think Primeval would work here better than grave titan.

Adding in thragtusk and removing the finks works as well.

Is nightmare viable as a one of there?

Do I need more finishers?

Is Garruk Relentless better than primal hunter and/or lily in these colors?

conboy31

07-24-2012, 01:46 PM

The Red list from Spain got posted today (2nd out of 40). It ended up being non-shift, non-pfire, normal attrition nic fit. His GSZ's are better than everyone elses, but hes coldest to perish.

http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverage/top-8-decklists-ell-2012-julio

He is running 3 Liliana's MD (as am I with the white version) with no way to break 'symmetry'. I have found that sac a guy, we each discard, sac a guy is more than enough reason to run her. Additionally, with a top in play filtering dead lands and cabals to the top for her feels like breaking symmetry to me. She doesn't have to be some sick engine where we are abusing LFTL and Pfire to value someone out over 6 turns. If she can provide momentum for 3 turns, that is enough.

Claymore

07-24-2012, 01:47 PM

That Jund Fit does have Red Elemental Blast out of the sideboard which I've been thinking about for sideboard countermagic, although I've been experimenting with Guttural Response instead.

Liliana is only good when you can break her discard symmetry. There aren't many Nic Fit lists that can do that, although I've been trying to make one lately. You have to build the deck around her.

Running Rector doesn't mean you need Moat, she just gives the deck another powerful toolbox and Moat is a good option to go with. She tutors up additional Deeds on demand as well as game-crushing enchantments such as Choke and Humility. There are many games that I would have lost if it wasn't for Rector. In most match ups she will fetch Recurring Nightmare, which will win you the game.

Sigarda, Thragtusk (or Thrun), and two Titans will be enough finishers. Especially if you can recur them with Recurring Nightmare.

I used to run Garruk Relentless, but in the current comboish meta he isn't all that great. He is a good tutor and engine, as well as working well with Master of the Wild Hunt to kill almost any creature, but that's against creature based decks. Primal Hunter will draw you a ton of cards which is always nice. See above for Liliana.

^Except if you can't use her discard because your hand = 1 Grave Titan on turn 3/4 with 5 lands in play, then you lose her discard turn, and if you used her edict then she will probably die next turn anyway to an attack and you spent a turn on a 1BB Diabolic Edict + Fog. She's not the friendliest walker to decks without cards that can freely go into the graveyard and takes up space that can be more flexible.

The recent Rock list that came out of Ghent's Top 8 had 4 Lilianas and it was completely designed around her. Not necessarily grave-based cards (though it did run 4x Lingering Souls), but cards that you don't care if you discard them...such as extra Lilianas, 4x Sensei's Tops, and a plethora of discard.

conboy31

07-24-2012, 01:57 PM

^Except if you can't use her discard because your hand = 1 Grave Titan on turn 3/4 with 5 lands in play, then you lose her discard turn, and if you used her edict then she will probably die next turn anyway to an attack and you spent a turn on a 1BB Diabolic Edict + Fog. She's not the friendliest walker to decks without cards that can freely go into the graveyard and takes up space that can be more flexible.

Given the scenario you outlined to highlight her weakness, I think the same scenario is a reason to play her. The opponent now has less power on the board. She has protected your life total. She allowed you another draw phase to get a land, cast Titan, reach out and shake your opponents hand.

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 02:25 PM

That's a decent point@Conboy about using Top to filter dead draws to the top for Lily fodder. Still, maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be drawing live and winning than drawing dead to accommodate Lily. But yeah, definitely relevant.

I tend to agree with Claymore's stance on Lily.

I think that all Red versions should automatically have 3+ REB/Pyro effects in their board. It's one of the defining reasons to go red, IMO -- it isn't just countermagic, like Guttural -- it's also a 1-mana Destroy Target Jace, which is relevant.

Rector is definitely good beyond Moat, but I personally view Moat as one of the best cards you can get with her...especially with tribal coming back in a big way. It just shits on Goblins and Merfolk by itself.

If you want more finishers, Baneslayer is where you should be.

Relentless is pretty much ass right now. I mean, he's okay, but I think there's better things you can be doing. Master of the Wild Hunt needs to go away if Garruk isn't there -- fighting things with deathtouch wolves is one of the most powerful reasons to run Garruk. He's good vs maverick, though, if you have a lot of that in your area.

The fact that the Jund list is running Deranged Hermit just turns me off so much >_> And Spike Feeder? Seriously? No Thragtusk? It just looks terrible to me ....

Back to Starscream... you pretty much need to decide if you want Rector or not. Like Claymore said, you -can- run it without Moat. It still tutors for Nightmare, Arena, Deeds, Faith's Fetters, sb options, etc. If you don't want Rector, then you probably just go Primeval -> Two Towers to simulate Nightmare. I really like Nightmare personally, and I think that you'll find it with Top when you really need to, but I'm not sure the Rock version wants to be spending the time setting up the Kokusho loop -- it's more midrange, while the Rector build is more control with a combo engine.

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 02:28 PM

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 02:34 PM

The finals list looks very similar to what I am running. Except I am using sacrifice removal as opposed to spot removal. And I dropped Deranged Hermit in favor of Broodmate Dragon but he runs both...

It does show that I need to change up my SB though. The Leyline plan just isnt very good and dilutes my strategy too much

Kung Fu English

07-24-2012, 02:55 PM

@Arianrhod

Thanks for the review, I really appreciate it and totally see where you're going. I will try out most of these changes but they do seem pretty good.

Your assumptions are pretty spot on. There really isn't a ton of storm but a lot of burn, rug, maverick, high tide, sneak and show. Ppl bring wierd decks too sometimes. I do like that Druid though, he should help a lot vs combo.

The land changes may be tough for now as I dOnt have anymore savannahs or windswepts but I will make due.

Thanks will post updated list later!

Higashi

07-24-2012, 04:26 PM

@ Arianrhod Thanks for mentioning my Phoenix list as a starting point for a GBw build. I just use your Rector list as a starting point for the list I took to SCGVegas this weekend.

I went 6-2 getting 21st place with the following;
3 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard;
1 Angel of Despair
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
1 Humility
1 Memoricide
1 Perish

I'll give a quick run down of the event, but I didn't take any notes so I'll be leaving out a bunch of details.

Round 1 vs. Giovanni (Affinity)
G1: I'm on the play, I turn 1 blind therapy calling brainstorm... see Affinity and take a sigh of relief. He takes his turn, drops an artifact land, memnite, drum, signal pest.
I take my turn drop explorer, flashback therapy naming thoughcast, fetch out 2 lands play deed, followed by baneslayer the next turn, he scoops.
G2: He plays blimkmoth, drum, 3x memnite, signal pest... I play explorer off of a forest.
He swings I choose not to block, he looks confused, drops and artifact land. I take my turn play tower, sac explorer fetch two lands play curse of death's hold, GG.
1-0

Round 2 vs. Yurien (Belcher)
So I played Yurien at SCGPhoenix during the standard portion and I was his only lose for the day. (He ended up winning that event) He's a good guy and this was one of his first times playing Legacy... Of course he's on Belcher and I have no game against him.
G1: I play explorer and pass. He throws his hand on the table and is short 1 mana from belching me out, but has a ESG, Mox and another belcher in hand ready to kill me next turn if he draws anything. I manage to play tower sac explorer and play deed. This slows him down, because if he plays the mox I can sac deed in response to imprint forcing him to find another mana source. Yurien stalls out I mange to blow the deed for 4 destroying his on board belcher, I resolve Elspeth, begin the beat down and put another deed on the board. It's looking good for me as the turns progress but I never draw a therapy... He goes down to 2 Drops his hand and manages to belcher me.
G2: I mull down to 2 never having a hand against him he turn 1 make 16 goblins. GG.
1-1

Round 3 vs. Ryan (Rug Delver no basics)
G1: I don't really recall this match. I just remember play a baneslayer on 3 and moving on.
G2: Carpet of flowers does work I ramp out and beat down with Elspeth and Sigarda.
2-1

Round 4 vs. Tyler (Merfolk with Jace)
I know Tyler from Vegas, he's a local player and we FNM all the time.
G1: Tyler is on the quick beatdown and I have no game...
G2: We grind out I misplay with carpet, he counters my big things and drops Jace I draw no creatures to deal with Jace but have Tyler under Humility/Curse lock. Jace ultimates me, I still have a GSZ in my deck and a creature on the board so I don't scoop yet.. He shows me another Jace and a force and I scoop it up.
2-2

Round 5 vs. Luke (High Tide)
Luke is also a Las Vegas local who I've played with for many years. I don't know what he is on but I guess High Tide and I'm right.... Bad match up for me I think.
G1: Luke doesn't die to my early game and plays by himself for a bunch of turns. BRAIN FREEZE for the win......
G2: Grindy, Grindy , Grindy I manage to land an early Elspeth to put on some pressure, Luke goes for a turn 4 combo fizzles out and I manage to sneak the win.
G3: I play turn 1 Carpet, Turn 2 Chains... rip his hand/deck apart with extirpate, therapy, witness and nightmare. Beat down with tokens.
3-2

Round 6 vs. Brandon (RUG Delver no basics)
G1: Deed him out drop a monster win.
G2: More of the same... I want this match up all day.
4-2

Round 7 vs. Noah (Elves)
G1: Noah throws out a bunch of elves... I deed followed by a monster and another deed.
G2: Noah plays elves, I cast perish on 3 followed by curse of death's hold.
5-2

Round 8 vs. Jason (RUG Delver)
This is the first time I meet Jason but I know a bunch of his friends. He's an Arizona player and him and his brother manage a site devoted to supporting Magic in Arizona (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/) check it out.
G1: I shut Jason out with explorer, therapy, deed....The Evening Star.
G2: Jason out tempos me and Delver and burn get there.
G3: We play a grindy game of magic, I eventually land carpet, nightmare, chains and a number of other cards... but I'm at 3 life, I manage gain life off of fetters and plan on cycling it with deed, witness, nightmare. I have total control of the game from that point but time is called, we end with a draw but Jason gives it to me... Good guy.
6-2

So ended up in 21st place good for $100. I would totally play this deck again, I would change a few slots though.
-Kokusho, the Evening Star did nothing but beat in the air I would rather have a GSZ target in this slot, maybe bring Master of the Wild Hunt back in he seems really good now that tribal decks are making a comback.
-I really want a Leyline of Sanctity in my 75 somewhere, blecher is becoming too popular.
-I never cast Cranial Extraction or Memoricide, but I did board them in... Maybe these should become the leylines, need to test that more.
-Angel of Despair did nothing but divide my sideboard from my main deck.... Needs to get the boot.

Props:
-Carpet of Flowers and Chains of Mephistopheles if you do not have these in your Nic Fit deck you are playing a bad version, these cards did soooo much work for me this weekend. Get you Chains now while they are only $30-50 they will be going up soon.

Arianrhod

07-24-2012, 04:49 PM

Thanks for the report! How was Liliana, out of curiosity? We've been having a bit of a discussion about her lately.

I'm surprised you had so much trouble with Fish. It's always seemed like a pretty good matchup -- I guess having Jace does make a bit of a difference, but you can just shut him down with Fetters. Belcher is unfortunate, but there isn't too much we can do about that. Leyline does help a bit, but they can Wish for answers (they run Hull Breach, right?), and gobs kill you too, although obv. you have more outs to that than to the belcher itself.

High Tide is a hilarious matchup. Your game three is how it's supposed to go post-board every time. And yeah, RUG is a really, really fun matchup for my Rector White build. It's not even remotely fair.

I agree RE Angel of Despair. Her time has come and passed, I fear. I still like Kokusho. The furthest I'd be willing to budge is that I might try Yosei in his place, but IMO the Rector White version needs to have some kind of absurd lategame engine with Nightmare, because it gets stuck in stalemates so often. It needs to have something to punch through. Even if half the time Kokusho just flies for 5 and is generally unimpressive, that other half of the time he'll save your ass.

Cranial and Memoricide are pretty good vs combo -- they're also good vs Sneak/Show and Reanimator, which you didn't run into. If they were Leylines, you'd have been pretty annoyed to see either of those decks. Extirpates go a long way, but you need some additional extraction effects to really be able to beat those decks with any kind of reliability in my experience.

How was the Perish? It was kind of a filler spot for me because I didn't really know what else to put in, and I wanted something decent vs Maverick.

I'm going to run my Rector White in my local tonight, cutting Garruk Relentless for a Wood Elves (yes, it actually impressed me THAT much), and the Angel/Perish for a pair of Mindcensors in the board. I've been wanting to try Mindcensor for a while now, but I haven't gotten around to it -- figure now's as good of a time as any.

rxavage

07-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Has a high tide player ever cast Time Spiral with Chains out?

TheArchitect

07-24-2012, 05:48 PM

Liliana is amazing. You dont always have to plus one. She Edicts and stays alive. Or against Combo/Control you just eat their hand. You have arguably the best Top-Decks in the format so why not make it so you and your opponent is top decking? RUG, goes oh look a 3/3 mongoose off of the top. You go okay, Edict, Here is a Grave Titan? Liliana doesn't need to be abused and do cutesy bad combos. You just need to be able to get board advantage and destroy their hand. Breaking her is fine and all, but does this deck really need the grindy advantage of Lingering Souls? And PFire in my opinion just makes you better vs decks you are already good against.

I have always really like Lily... Our deck (especially with top) is probably the best top decker in the format Miracles is the only thing that really comes close. And lily puts players in topdeck mode and keeps them their until they answer her. Like Mega said, you dont always have to +1, she can just sit till you have things you dont mind discarding. And if I am against say, rug, and I am at 4 mana and we both have pretty full hands. I dont mind discarding a primetitan, deed, etc even if all they discard is a lightbolt. I can get back that card with recursion later when it is actually relevant, but that bolt is gone. They lose a card that would see use sometime soon, I pitch a bomb I can get later when I need it. And now they are that much closer to top deck mode, and lily got her +1 so she can -2 twice.

The thing with lily is, she is ALWAYS card advantage.

Worst case scenario: your opponent has 2 creatures. You play her, make them sac one and they you "cast fog" on your turn, cause they have to finish off lily.

Best case: You -2 your opponents only creature, then +1 every turn unless they cast a creature (then -2 them), putting your opponent in topdeck mode and clearing the board, while your are filtering with top and playing scary things.

The double black cc is the only really arguement I can see against her. Also, dont forget she is does go well with sun titan (but thats kinda win-more).

Qweerios

07-24-2012, 05:49 PM

I agree with Magadeus on Lily. I have played 1-4 Lily in all my Nic Fit decks (I had 4 when I took 1st at a 1k) and the +1 doesn't need to be broken for her to be really good. Even though I play LftL in my GBu version, I think I only had Lily and LftL active together once every 20ish games. Lily + Top is what really makes her shine.

@Megadeus,

Oh yeah, if you read back to the start of the thread, I made a big case about Jace + Counters > Nic Fit. The best advice I can give you at fighting Jace is Garruk, Primal Hunter alongside Thoughtseize or REB/Pyro. Garruk is the anti-Jace. I personally nailed Jace.dec with Primeval Titan, 2 Treetop Villages, and Kodama of the North Tree. Trample is extremely relevant against Jace + Snap, Clique, SFM/Bskull, and most importantly: f**in Elspeth...

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 06:04 PM

@Megadeus,
Oh yeah, if you read back to the start of the thread, I made a big case about Jace + Counters > Nic Fit. The best advice I can give you at fighting Jace is Garruk, Primal Hunter alongside Thoughtseize or REB/Pyro. Garruk is the anti-Jace. I personally nailed Jace.dec with Primeval Titan, 2 Treetop Villages, and Kodama of the North Tree. Trample is extremely relevant against Jace + Snap, Clique, SFM/Bskull, and most importantly: f**in Elspeth...
Hmmm... The trample does seem pretty good against them. I never thought about it like that. Primal Hunter though? Maybe I'll take Flippy Garruk (Who I have been underwhelmed with besides a few specific moments) and change to Big Garruk...

As for Liliana, when I first used the deck I played with 1 main and one side, and literally against every match up I was siding her in. Against Combo she eats away their hand, against control, she eats their hand, against tempo she does everything. If they are holding she eats their hand, and if they are attacking she gets rid of a dude. Against Maverick, is the same deal. Post Deed she is great because she just dominates with a clear board.

I have thought about a Thornling maybe. Is it just too cute?

Worldslayer

07-24-2012, 09:34 PM

Hello everyone! I've always kept track of legacy, but recently decided I'd try to explore the format a little deeper after a rut in T1. Nic Fit caught my eye after paging through nothing but broken linears, G/W and RUG, and I was wondering if anyone could answer a few questions:

1) Nic Fit seems predominantly defined by two tertiary colors* (with occasional solid GB lists popping up), white for rector (and the ensuing toolbox of enchantments) and red (for punishing fires and/or scapeshift/valakut. For the purposes of this question i'm asking about scapeshift, since I don't know what PFire does that the rest of your deck doesn't do or cares about anyway). Is there a method to which splash you play in which kind of metagame? So far, outside of valakut nic fit having a better DnT matchup and a better chance to "whoops" a linear combo deck thanks to its ability to accidentally the whole valakut kill, I don't see a lot of chatter on which one you'd play where. While "playstyle" certainly has points in the argument, I'd certainly think there's thoughts on what kind of meta you'd want the rector toolbox and what meta requires scapeshifting. Can anyone enlighten me?

Offhand it looks as if Jund Scapeshift has a better blue matchup (thanks to REBs and you guys not having to put up with MM anymore) at the expensive of a less dominating creature (and possibly sneak/show) matchup. Is this more or less correct?

2) would you take either one of these to an unknown metagame? If so, which one and why?

3) With stoneblades recently making a return to the spotlight on the SCG stage, is NicFit forced to lay low for awhile, or is the matchup close enough to winnable that adaptation is possible?

Thank you in advance for any help and answers. This deck looks awesome to play, and I can't wait to start casting Cabal Therapy again.

-SZ

*As far as I can tell, a blue splash exists but seems both clunkier and a poorer performer on average than either of the other splashes. It seems like a Boards list - often discussed and modified but very rarely played and/or successful.

Megadeus

07-24-2012, 09:59 PM

I feel like GB is solid vs combo (as solid as any of these lists get anyway), even vs control, and good vs aggro. GBW= A bit weaker vs combo, probably still even against control, and maybe a bit better vs aggro. GBR (Non-Shift) still a bit weak to combo, a bit better against control, and better vs aggro.

I have no clue on the blue splash as I have never tried it.

Basically with Nic-Fit you probably will be able to smash any aggro decks, as deed destroys anything creature based, all while going over the top with much bigger threats than they can handle. Control it will be a tight game, but a resolved Jace will be very good as he usually is against Mid-Rangy decks. And Combo you will have to play a tight game and know what to name with your therapy if you expect to even have a chance winning.

Greenpoe

07-24-2012, 11:14 PM

But Lightning Bolt does kill Planeswalkers, Like Jace, which is a big issue, at least for me in my meta. I really don't like lightning bolt, because like you say, in a control deck like ours it isn't actually just a straight kill spell. But other than Maelstrom Pulse, how else are we really killing a Jace? We usually only have 1 or 2 dudes down at a time mid game so Jace bounces us out of the game, and then once they get rid of our threats they brainstorm us into stupid card advantage. I just haven't figured out how to beat Jace. It may be a mental thing, but it is just very difficult.

You can fight Jace with creatures that leave guys behind (Grave Titan, Hermit, Broodmate Dragon), Vindicate, Oblivion Ring or Faith's Fetters (Fetters and O-Ring work fine as enchantment targets), plus as its been said, Maelstrom Pulse, or direct damage via Bolt, Blightning or P-fire. Plus, Sigarda won't get bounced by Jace. Oh yeah, ETB effects hurt Jace too (Eternal Witness, Huntmaster) Jace shouldn't be that big of an issue really.

Claymore

07-25-2012, 12:00 AM

I had typed up a response but the server ate it...but:

-Thrun is great against control and Jace.

-Each build of Nic Fit can be varied to a given meta. I'm not a good point of authority, but there is good discussion here until someone else can chime in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=659062&viewfull=1#post659062

-We have a good matchup against Stoneblade decks because our high density of must-answer bombs will eventually overwhelm them. Granted, an active Jace can be tough and make for a 2 hour long match, but you're not out of the fight at all.

-Your build can be tailored to whatever. For example, I put in Living Death to give the deck absurd resiliency in the long run against control and aggro decks.

Qweerios

07-25-2012, 12:19 AM

Played GBu Nic Fit today and performed ok...

Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

Spells (22)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
4 Negate
1 Karakas

2-1 UR Delver
G1: Delver + Daze + Spell Snare smashes destroys me
-2 Garruk -1 Therapy +2 Blood +1 Darkblast
G2: Thrag wins
G3: Thrag wins

2-0 Pox
G1: Loam and Thragtusk owned
-4 Therapy -2 Lily -1 Shriekmaw -1 Fleshbag +4 Thoughtseize +4 Negate
G2: My opponent mulls and draws like crap so I win...

0-2 Combo Elves
G1: I get flooded and find nothing with Top. I take a lethal swing on T4
-2 Garruk -2 Gifts -1 Ooze -1 Thrag -1 LftL +2 Blood +1 Darkblast +4 Thoughtseize
G2: I get flooded and only land a TS and a Lily

0-2 Sneak Show
G1: T2 Emrakul + FoW vs my T1 Explorer
-2 Garruk -3 Pulse -3 Deed -1 Ooze +1 Karakas +4 Thoughtseize +4 Negate
G2: I open up with TS and get rid of brainstorm when my opponent is holding 2 Needles 1 Grissel 1 Island 1 Petal 1 Cage. My opponent draws into Tomb, plays Sneak with Petal that I Negate (opponent's jaw drops). I am holding a gift for the following turn but my opponent rips a SnT and Grissel does his thing.

I am still missing 2 Misty, and I think the deck is still too lategame centered as it is. Gifts is a bomb by itself and I think I need to incorporate more Innocent Blood into the maindeck to make it run smoother. Gifts and Garruk overlap in their purpose.

Kung Fu English

07-25-2012, 12:59 AM

Alright after minimal testing tonight I've come to a few conclusions.

1. Sigarda is amazing and getting her out vs control is very hard to beat.

2. I need to get ahold of another savannah :P

3. Baneslayer while she would be amazing is never in my hand at the right time.

4. Garruk relentless is underwhelming I'm not sure I want 2. I def like the interaction with uve tracker and master, but 1 may be enough. Tracker may not be powerful enough on his own either but needs more games first.

Arianrhod

07-25-2012, 10:42 AM

Alright, time for a nice big dreadnought of a post, I guess....if I'm to get in something for everyone, anyway.

First up, I went a disappointing 2-2 last night at my local, purely because of my own stupidity. Deck was fine, I was just playing like a chump. For now, I'm going to stick with the Wood Elves as my floater spot in my Rector White -- shit is just so good. It feels pretty good to have a 3-drop that isn't Empath or Witness (aka something you actually want to get early in the game). It's also a good dork to sac to Therapy that doesn't feel embarrassing, like those awkward moments when you need to sac like an Ooze to therapy. It's something that I could definitely see replacing at some point in the future, but for now, I think I'm going to settle there. The Mindcensors in the board....I dunno. I brought them in vs Imperial Painter, and they didn't do anything because he never drew his Recruiters. I also brought them in vs Bant, but I never saw them, and I didn't really need them in general. My thought process when putting them in is that they are something that can help vs both Maverick and combo. I'm not sure if I want to leave them in for another test, or try out something else. For now, I'm considering my list as having two open sideboard spots, but am leaning towards giving them another test. Also, Kokusho won me a game when I was locked out by an Ensnaring Bridge. Granted I could have waited for a Deed, Pulse, or Vindicate, but odds are I would have lost if he had that much time to go off.

I'm going to go most recent -> back up, since it's easier for me as I'm scrolling down.

@Kung Fu -- You might need to add a 2nd Baneslayer. That's the number I've run for a considerable amount of time now, and they're always just amazing. Unless I'm horrifically mana-screwed, or my opponent has like an Iona on white or something, I'm never unhappy to draw a Baneslayer.

Towards that end, you might want to add in a little bit more ramp, since you don't have Rector and Moat as additional stall tactics. If the Garruk-Master-Tracker engine isn't working for you, it might be that Garruk is really just that bad now. There's a lot of things you could do with 4 slots....2nd Baneslayer, 1x Wood Elves, open slot x2 is pretty awesome. I've had the idea kicking around of Wren's Run Packmaster[/card] for a while to reinvigorate the Master of the Wild Hunt engine, but we don't run any[where near enough] elves to make her work, due to the Champion mechanic, and I don't think that the interaction is strong enough to be worth building around specifically.

@Qweerios -- Seems like Thragtusk was MVP for you.

I noticed that you boarded out Garruk a lot...just the matchups, or hasn't he been doing much for you in that version?

Lol, Negate ftw. Sucks that he ripped like a greek god =( Too bad you didn't have Shriekmaw in hand when he Showed Emrakul -- that would have been all kinds of amusing.

You should put in a Wood Elves =P I'm so high on that card right now, haha.

@Claymore -- Thrun isn't as good as many people think. He's okay, but he suffers from two very serious problems:

1) he's a 4/4. That means he's smaller than most green creatures in legacy, with the basically sole exception of Monguise. Knight, Goyf, and Qasali are all going to be at least 4/4 most of the time.

2) Control has Terminus now, which means it can laugh at him. Some of them were running some number of Wrath of Gods postboard a few months ago, which also dealt with the problem....and a lot of control decks (and non-control, for that matter) are running Perish as a means of combating Maverick, which deals us some splash damage.

You're pretty much spot on RE Stoneblade. Unless they go nutty, odds are we'll have the edge, but it will take approximately 9 years to actually win. This is one matchup where Kokusho+Nightmare really, really shines, because it's an atomic-level win condition that Stoneblade can't really interact with. At the point at which it happens, they'll be so far out of resources that it isn't even funny. Rector builds are favored vs Stoneblade due to Phyrexian Arena. At the peak of Stoneblade a few months ago, I was actually running 3x Arena in my deck. That may have been a little excessive, but it sure got the job done. Stoneblade just kind of crumpled....they're an attrition deck, like us, but they're focused almost entirely on 1-for-1s and using superior card quality to grind matches out. By contrast, our deck is built around the concept of [at least] 2-for-1s. Everything generates value, and Stoneblade just can't keep up. They need to have one of their aggro-tastic hands and play basically closer to RUG than control, or they'll get drowned out.

@Greenpoe -- been a while since I've seen you in here. Good to see all these people coming back to the thread now that we've got some quality discussion going :P I guess all I had to do was start writing massive dreadnought posts every day, haha.

You missed a way to get rid of Jace -- you Therapy them on turn 3. Also, Cranial Extraction/Memoricide are excellent weapons against Jace decks, because they tend to lean on Jace really hard for their primary win condition. If all you have to worry about from Stoneblade is their dudes, and not their walkers, you're pretty well set.

@Megadeus -- I'm just going to copy/paste the relevant section that Claymore linked to, but I'm going to make some revisions:

(Scale: poor -> decent -> good -> pretty good -> astonishing)
Note: fair includes decks like RUG, Miracles, Stoneblade, Rock, Deadguy, etc. Aggro includes tribal and Maverick, although Maverick is kind of a fair/aggro hybrid, to be honest. I guess it's basically tribal humans, kind of, lol. I also added a category of Sneak, which also includes Reanimator, Post, and all of the other stupid ERMAGAHD EMRAKUL decks.

White - pretty good vs fair, pretty good vs aggro, decent-good vs combo, decent vs Sneak
Red - pretty good-astonishing vs fair, astonishing vs aggro, decent vs combo, poor-decent vs Sneak
Blue - astonishing vs fair, decent vs aggro [Note: rapes Maverick, tribal is poor], good vs combo, good vs Sneak
G/B - good vs fair, good vs aggro, good vs combo, good vs Sneak

Again, these are a little questionable, but as a rough way of saying what's good vs what, it's decent. Note that I'm operating under the shameless assumption of my personal lists (using Qweerios base for G/B). I don't know the Rock variant's matchups as well as I know the Rector variant, for example. Same with Scapeshift vs PFire...so assume White = Rector, Red = Scapeshift, Blue = Fact or Fiction, G/B = Qweerios, and remember that those are guidelines, not strict truths.

Also: don't make the mistake of assuming that Deed is the end-all and be-all. It's not. If you think that you smash aggro just because of Deed, you're going to die. It's a hell of a workhorse, but Merfolk can counter it. Goblins can have dudes with too-high of a CMC and kill you before you can actually wrath everything (stupid Ringleader...). Either of them can and sometimes do run Pithing Needle/Revoker. Leaning entirely on one card is the single fastest way to lose good matchups where you don't draw it/that one card gets shut down.

@Worldslayer -- welcome to the thread/deck!

See my matchup analysis above.

Speaking personally, I would take Rector to an unknown meta, but that's first and foremost because Rector is my "favored" build -- it was my first build, and it's still my favorite. As a result, I have a lot of experience with it, and experience counts like you wouldn't believe with this deck. Sure, sometimes you hurp (Veteran) into durp (Therapy) and go shlurp (Deed or 5/6-drop). But for every one of those situations, there's five more where things don't work out quite how you want them to, and you need to improvise. This is a HARD deck to play correctly, let alone optimally, which is one reason why it doesn't get as much press as it really deserves. The playskill of your average Nic Fit player if you walk around a good sized legacy event is decidedly awful. I'd proxy up both Scapeshift and Rector (if those are your desired points of entry) and see which one feels better to you....then just stick with that one with extreme prejudice. These decks are capable of more tricks than most legacy players know exist, and taking the time to learn one version inside and out will serve you much better than switching it up every time the meta shifts. Rector and Scapeshift are both powerful enough that you shouldn't have to worry about meta shifts anyway....they can both be tweaked for almost any meta.

Blue is still in the experimental stage. It's one of those things where we know there's a deck there somewhere, but actually pinning it down is challenging. It'll get there eventually, I'm sure. For now, though, unless you want to do a lot of R&D, I'd advise staying away from it. I mean, if you want to get down and dirty with it, then by all means be my guest...but I'm guessing that's not what you're looking for, from the tone of your post.

@Megadeus again - Thornling is atrocious. If you want to play MooMooPlowCow, play Kodama/North instead. He's vastly better. Also, you're in red. If you work in enough lifegain to still be able to use your Top how you want to, keep in mind that [cards]Burning-Tree Shaman exists. It's a hell of a card...it just requires you to be careful with Top, which is one reason that he doesn't see much play. And before you suggest Sylvan Library, remember that Sylvan dies to Deed.

@TheArchitect -- you make a very good point regarding Lily in that we will probably get the card back later. However, that does slow down our rate of winning a lot, which is something that the deck can have issues with as it is. I'd rather not see the deck turn into something like lands.dec, where you win g1 and then try to stall out.

I'm not saying that there aren't good arguments on behalf of Liliana, because there definitely are. Hell, the fact that she's a blowout vs both stack-based combo and Show and Tell is a huge deal, since those are traditionally weaker matchups for the deck as a whole archetype. Also Metalworker. But I just really don't prefer the kind of playstyle that she forces you into....even in the Rector White, which I regarded as the most prison-ish of the various builds, I don't want to have to play that way. I'd much rather actually win the game than strip my opponent totally of resources -- it's a matter of balance. The rest of the deck does that well enough that I don't see taking EVERYTHING as necessary or desired.

Maybe I'll try one of her in place of Wood Elves and maybe a second in the board for my event on Saturday and see if my opinion changes from when I last played with her.

Is it fair to say that Liliana could be seen as a "playstyle card" rather than a "staple?" It seems like the deck overall has enough quality options that she isn't mandatory, even if she is good. Is personal preference the best way to settle the Liliana dispute?

Amazingxkcd

07-25-2012, 10:56 AM

@Qweerios, how is that Ooze mainboard working for you? The rest of the list seems good, though I have my personal qualms about Liliana

Claymore

07-25-2012, 12:31 PM

I agree that Thrun isn't great all around, but against blue-based control decks in particular he can be a great asset. His anti-counter clause alone has won me several tournament matches against blue decks with or without Jace and got me one hilarious scoop-phase against Pox (T2 Nether Void? Here's my Thrun).

Otherwise, in a more aggro or combo meta Thrun isn't the best choice for the deck.

TheArchitect

07-25-2012, 12:52 PM

@TheArchitect -- you make a very good point regarding Lily in that we will probably get the card back later. However, that does slow down our rate of winning a lot, which is something that the deck can have issues with as it is. I'd rather not see the deck turn into something like lands.dec, where you win g1 and then try to stall out.

I'm not saying that there aren't good arguments on behalf of Liliana, because there definitely are. Hell, the fact that she's a blowout vs both stack-based combo and Show and Tell is a huge deal, since those are traditionally weaker matchups for the deck as a whole archetype. Also Metalworker. But I just really don't prefer the kind of playstyle that she forces you into....even in the Rector White, which I regarded as the most prison-ish of the various builds, I don't want to have to play that way. I'd much rather actually win the game than strip my opponent totally of resources -- it's a matter of balance. The rest of the deck does that well enough that I don't see taking EVERYTHING as necessary or desired.

Maybe I'll try one of her in place of Wood Elves and maybe a second in the board for my event on Saturday and see if my opinion changes from when I last played with her.

Is it fair to say that Liliana could be seen as a "playstyle card" rather than a "staple?" It seems like the deck overall has enough quality options that she isn't mandatory, even if she is good. Is personal preference the best way to settle the Liliana dispute?

I think that is a fair assumption, that she is a playstyle choice. Especially when running 3-4 of them like I do, she turns the deck's strategy into "get your opponent into top deck mode, and with a clear board before you die, and then win with prime titan and lands". And I do have a lot of games where I draw out which is undoubtable because the GB list I usually run is more controlling. That said, she controls the board/hand better than jace (not counting spells you find with jaces BS) and is a definitely worthy of inclusion if you are looking for a more "control" deck.

Kung Fu English

07-25-2012, 01:58 PM

@Kung Fu -- You might need to add a 2nd Baneslayer. That's the number I've run for a considerable amount of time now, and they're always just amazing. Unless I'm horrifically mana-screwed, or my opponent has like an Iona on white or something, I'm never unhappy to draw a Baneslayer.

Towards that end, you might want to add in a little bit more ramp, since you don't have Rector and Moat as additional stall tactics. If the Garruk-Master-Tracker engine isn't working for you, it might be that Garruk is really just that bad now. There's a lot of things you could do with 4 slots....2nd Baneslayer, 1x Wood Elves, open slot x2 is pretty awesome. I've had the idea kicking around of Wren's Run Packmaster for a while to reinvigorate the Master of the Wild Hunt engine, but we don't run any[where near enough] elves to make her work, due to the Champion mechanic, and I don't think that the interaction is strong enough to be worth building around specifically.

I wouldn't be against running 2 baneslayers. I am kind of in the camp of wanting some extra redundancy rather than all the 1 ofs. I'd think of going back to 2 oozes md too but idk.

Was considering grave Titan vs kokusho as well. No moat means its not an easy decision, as kokusho is weak to have and swords but I like the non combat oriented win con be presents. Thoughts?

About the wolves. I do like the master as a form of repeatable spot removal for the deck. I think he is ok on his own though since he keeps making guys. And if you dont need to kill dudes he creates a lot of power from a 4 drop over tome Tracker is +/- but probably shines against creature decks ESP if you are fighting with Baneslayer or death touch wolves. Garruk I just never wanted when I was playing. However I only played against sneak and show and esper stone blade, matchups you don't need that repeated removal against.

Something about looking at my list and seeing all the 1 ofs bothered me today though.

Also I should say overall I'm a fan of liliana but maybe sb is better?

Qweerios

07-25-2012, 05:01 PM

@Arianrhod,

As I mentioned, Primal Hunter and Gifts overlap in their purpose. Garruk is one of those expensive bombs that turn the attrition matches in your favor. I think Gifts is superior to Garruk at that and I intend on cutting him entirely from tricolored lists.

I wouldn't play Wood Elves at all when I have access to Oracles. The Oracles are just better. I would be more enclined to play a Viridian Emissary than a Wood Elves simply because ramp and Therapy bodies are things I want ASAP.

@Amazingxkcd

Ooze MD is what I cling to G1 against RUG, UR Delver, Burn/Sligh, Reanimator, and Dredge. It is a silver bullet at best and rarely a bad card to have in hand. I can't always rush Thragtusk against RUG and UR Delver because I don't have a lot of GSZ and I need to play around Daze and Pierce. Definitely a staple for a GSZ package in my book, no matter how incomplete said package may appear.

As for Liliana, my opinion about her is really back and forth. I think Liliana is really good at what she does, but she does a thing of her own. Do we really need what she does or should we play more synergistic cards instead - Thoughtseize/IoK and Innocent Blood being the most blatant ones we often lack. I find it odd that such great cards are often missing from a deck revolving around Explorer and Therapy... Passively ramping is fine against fair decks but oh so wasteful against unfair decks (AKA: Legacy format).

On another note, I don't believe in the "playstyle" argument. I think there is a right and a wrong way to play a deck and that accepting "playstyle" as an argument for a card choice is debilitating.

CRich3

07-25-2012, 05:51 PM

Hello, I am new to the site but I have been playing Nic Fit all year. Haven't really had any real insight on working on my deck except for what I try play testing. I never seen any of these GBu and GBr versions. But my question is why did everyone abandoned the birthing pod version?

Edit: How good is the GBr version? I have most of the cards to make the change from GBw, just not sure if it's worth it.

Claymore

07-25-2012, 07:32 PM

GBr is putting up good results as of late, and choosing between it and GBw is a meta call. Red gives you more tools against aggro and the "oops I win" Scapeshift-Valakut combo, as well as red counters against blue combo from the board.

For myself, I took out Pod because it is was too slow and requires a delicate board set up. Too easily disrupted and not a lot of board impact.

Megadeus

07-25-2012, 07:57 PM

Is the scapeshift combo really that good? It just seems somewhat slow... You have to hit some many lands, and your threats overall aren't very impressive.

Claymore

07-25-2012, 08:16 PM

There's a report on it a page or two back, plus discussion.

Claymore

07-26-2012, 01:06 AM

Here's something I've been experimenting with and developing with Arianhod's input; a more explosive variety of Nic Fit. This is a GB concept build that uses the raw power available in Culling the Weak to give the deck an alternate method to not only kill Explorers but also power out incredible early plays off of Explorers, Wood Elves, and even Dryad Arbor. Late game Cullings are used to feed Oona.

4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Grave Titan
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Living Death
2 Duress
2 Culling the Weak

This build uses Duress for additional targeted discard mainboard, but this could be Thoughtseize. I had 3x Hymn in place of Wood Elves, but made the switch and am still testing with it. Wood Elves plays well when you can GSZ T1 for Dryad Arbor and play Elves T2, which could then be Culled for 4 mana (need more 4 mana drops) or Culled on T3 for 8 mana to drop...whatever, really.

Primeval Titan drags out Maze of Ith and Karakas to help combat Show and Tell. Grave Titan for straight killing power. Oona for a mana sink.

Living Death works with Culling and other sac effects to clear the board, often acting as Damnations. Fleshbag Marauders help unbalance it.

Volrath's Stronghold acts as the Recurring Nightmare of the deck, although obviously slower.

This deck might not be what I'd take to a tournament right now, but offers up some alternative tech I've been thinking about. I've put some of this stuff into more traditional builds that need more refinement. I'm curious to see if it would benefit from more Cullings or discard.

Granted, I don't even know if this solves any problems the deck is currently having, but I figure it may be of use to someone around here.

Kung Fu English

07-26-2012, 01:32 AM

Updated list, presuming I can obtain the SB cards (I still only own 1 windswept heath): Planning for tourney on Saturday, still tweaking to do. Added Karakas for presumed presence of sneak and show.

Creature (15)
1x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalker (3)
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
2x Liliana of the Veil

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

Megadeus

07-26-2012, 01:51 AM

I really hate Garruk Relentless at this point and think he is terrible... Drop for like another Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse maybe? I personally want to try Big Garruk as a one of...

wortwelt

07-26-2012, 10:55 AM

Here are my Ghent adventures, as promised. I didn't do well, but I still want to develop the deck, since I think it's really promising.

Obligatory Road Trip Story (and Disclaimer)
On Thursday afternoon, my throat became sore. That's usually the sign for an upcoming cold. We couldn't find an affordable hotel room, since the festival that was going on in Ghent caused the cheaper options to be fully booked weeks in advance. We had decided to camp - there was a campground 10 minutes from the venue. The GP is in July, it ought to be nice and warm, right?

We arrived at the campground and it was pouring. The tent meadow was like a Bayou enchanted by Evil Presence. Mud, rain, low temperatures, humidity - I could hear the cold-inducing germs cheering in my throat.

I'm just telling this to explain my obviously horrible performance, because I think it's not the deck's fault. My mind wasn't working properly, and everything is a little blurred in my memory. Fuck being sick at GPs.

(latest) DECKLIST

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Innocent Blood
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Baleful Strix
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Fierce Empath
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB
1 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Leak
1 Scavenging Ooze

That's the list I ran on Sunday, and my GP list was pretty close to this. I can't remember the exact list, but it had roughly
+ Ghastly Demise
- Innocent Blood

SB
+ Tormods Crypt
- Jace TMS

Short Report
We arrived at 18:30 at the venue and I played one Grinder, since I was dead tired. I beat UR Delver despite whiffing on an early Therapy. In the second game, he played Ponder, but resolved the motions of a brainstorm (which he had also in hand, but mistakenly didn't put on the table.) I caught it, his face went to shock and he took a game loss, since there was no way to determine which cards in his hand were from the ponder. The Brainstorm was on top of his deck.

Next round, I got smashed by Dredge. Extirpate is good and well, but if you can't draw enough deeds and basically race them, you die to meager Putrid Imp / Narcomoeba / Ichorid Beats. (Note that not finding Deed soon enough / Dredge will become a repeating pattern. Also, the Crypt in the latest build was due to not being able to fight Dredge, but was poorly thought out. It was the only card I had with me.)

Main Event:
I prepared to face Maverick, RUG Delver and SnT/Reanimator.

Round One: Doomsday Combo.
Game 1, I therapied after he cracked a strand for basic Island, blindly calling Stoneforge. I saw a hand of Burning Wish, Silence, Orim's Chant, Dark Ritual etc. Figuring he was on a combo plan, I thought I'd take the fast Mana or the Wish on the Explorer backswing.
He drew, played land, Top, and passed. I played Explorer, flashbacked therapy, he Brainstormed in response, I whiffed. Then he Silenced me and killed me.
Game 2, I boarded in all the combo hate, but mulliganed a lot and died to Silence again, since I had only one Counter.

Round Two: RUG Delver.
First Game, I did what NFB does.
Second game, he had the Nuts.
Third game, I Therapied on the play, but he had Brainstorm. I mistakenly was afraid of Stifle, but he didn't even play it. In fact, no Delver player I watched or played against had Stifles. I died because he wastelanded my only blue source (Underground Sea) and could not find a third land.

Round Three: Dredge, with Nether Shadow FFS.
The player was obviously inexperienced with the Deck, but I only had Extirpates in the SB and after losing G1 to mediocre Ichorid beats again, I deeded the shit out of him G2. It doesn't help in the long run, though. Despite a mulligan to 5 and two brainstorms, I could not find an Extirpate and died.

I knew I was playing horribly, but who doesn't when one's on painkillers?

Round 4 just for fun, I crushed Sneak and Show pretty convincingly. I even won G1 after he resolved Sneak Attack, put in Griselbrand and drew 7 cards off the successful attack. Deed the Sneak, Extirpate, he reveals Emrakul in hand, discard it with Therapy, Extirpate that and then beating him with Grave Titan.

I did two 8mans after wandering around for 1,5 hours.

1st one, I lost to UR Delver and being screwed on Mana after a Mulligan to 5.
2nd one, I beat my crewmate's UW miracles in an extremely grindy game 3 in which I extirpated basically everything.
...and then proceeded to lose to Dredge, again.

After a horrible night at the campsite with little sleep and in bitter cold, I decided to settle upon the list above, with at least the crypt against dredge, to play six rounds for a box of Revised. I barely remember which round I played which deck. Painkillers = Brainkillers.
The above list is what I used in this event. I cut Ghastly Demise and added a second Innocent Blood to the MD. The Jace in the SB went away for a Tormods Crypt (in case of another Dredge deck... Extirpates just don't do enough / I play them incorrectly.)

vs. UW Stoneforge
The player was pretty bad, but mulligans for Land eventually tied the match at 1-1. Sometimes, the deck is in total control, a Deed in play, but you can't kill them because you only draw 1/1s. So, the third game ended in a draw.

vs. Deadguy Ale (twice!)
I don't know why people play this deck. It's horrible, and Nic Fit beats every single card in their deck. G1 was the usual Nic Fit thing, but it took me 25 minutes to win. In the second game, I could handle everything, but he had Hymned me twice, so we were off to topdeck mode, while a Thalia was beating me down. With only 4 minutes, we started G3 and couldn't kill each other.

The second time against DGA, the deck performed exactly how it's meant to perform. Jace/Deed just wrecks them.

vs. Merfolk
Aside: In testing, I found that once they get to two lords, you are dead in less than 2 turns if you have an island. Therefore, I concluded, either don't use islands or be sure to ramp to Deed fast enough. The latter plan seemed to work better in general, while the no islands plan can work if your starting hand permits it (like, Explorer, Therapy, Forest, Catacombs, Deed,...).

I don't remember all that much about the games, tbh. I know we had one fairly drawn out game in which he topdecked a Phantasmal Image to copy my Grave Titan. Awkward.

vs. Goblins
That game felt particularly unfair. Game 1, he starts with Mountain, Lackey. I start with Forest, Explorer and have Therapy in hand. Not close.
He sides Grafdigger's Cage against me (as did quite a few opponents). That can't be correct against the deck. It shuts off GSZ and flashback Therapies, but dies to Deed? It just feels as it is not doing enough.

Deck Review
The core of the deck, which I consider to be Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Jace and GSZ, worked admirably well. Some comments on particular cards:

Brainstorm: 4of, no question. It makes the deck really consistent. I was always happy to draw one. You have six Fetches, four Explorers and two GSZ. You should be able to utilize Brainstorm quite well. Oracle also loves Brainstorm.

Innocent Blood: It kills your Explorer and takes one of their creatures. Was especially good against Delver, since you can easily play around Daze and Spell Pierce with a CMC1 spell. Recurring it with Witness was painful at times, but often very good.

Coiling Oracle, Baleful Strix: Built-in 2-for-1s are good. Due to the relatively low land count, they rather draw a card than Explore, but that's fine. T2 Orcale T3 Jace still happens once in a while. If you can afford it, set up Lands with Brainstorm or Jace.
Strix usually buys time and occasionally wins games. One thing I learned to love is the high creature count of the deck. If you suspect they are holding Spell Pierce, just drop a Strix. Both creatures are blue spells, which helps casting FoW if you need to. Six seems reasonable.

Eternal Witness: Three is the perfect number, especially for Game ones. It's basically never a dead topdeck. I sometimes boarded out a Witness or two when I did a lot of things with my graveyard in the first game. People board GY hate, and this deck is perfectly capable of winning while ignoring the Graveyard as a resource. Having three Witnesses also made the Fact or Fiction piles a lot harder.

Fierce Empath: I'm struggling with this card. It's a zenithable creature tutor and when I boarded out the Recurring Nightmare/Kokusho plan because of GY hate, I left Empath and Grave Titan as a compact hardcastable wincon. Still, it seems unspectacular as a card.

Recurring Nightmare / Kokusho: Being untutorable, the engine is clearly weaker than in the Gifts build. I sided both cards out quite a lot, since people were packing GY hate anyway. I still like it in the MD, because if you find Nightmare, it's hilarious.

Maelstrom Pulse: Good catchall. 2 seems fine.

Fact or Fiction: Aside from the actual fun you have when your opponent makes piles, the card was really strong. It may not have the game-ending capacity Gifts has, but since you choose the pile, you get what you want faster. Postboard, you also possibly dodge Surgical. Preboard, this card is why Witnesses shouldn't be cut. I was always happy to cast it, and getting the cards on the spot instead of witnessing or GSZ--> witnessing them was crucial in several matches. It's double filthy if you have a Witness ready in your hand. It's also fine to use it as Counter bait.

Jace TMS: One of the best cards in certain matchups. I really want the third Jace in the board and it was a mistake to cut him in the first place. It's interaction (or more precisely, lack of interaction) with Pernicious Deed is wonderful, and Explorer helps you to actually get to resolve him through Spell Pierce or Deed away annoying stuff soon enough. I like how the deck can go BUG Control postboard. I think it's a real strength.

Thragtusk: Worth every penny in many aggro matchups. This card generates just so much time.

Grave Titan: If they don't copy it, this is the beatstick to go. Tokens can also be sacrificed to strip them off anything valuable left with Therapies. Titan also does not care about Innocent Blood. And the look on your opponent's face when you hardcast it is just priceless.

Green Sun's Zenith: 2 was fine, especially postboard, because having too many makes their Grafdigger's Cages actually do something.

SB:
Krosan Grip: Was helpful against UW Stoneforge. Didn't play against Revoker / Needle. I think it's a fair slot.

Thoughtseize: Stellar, but I would not want more than 2.

Extirpate: Equally stellar. 3 is about right, especially considering the fact we run Brainstorm to dig for one.

Tormods Crypt: Didn't play against Dredge again, duh -.-

Flusterstorm: Never drew them and didn't play against Combo all that often. Can't judge the card.

Mana Leak: Surprisingly good. People just don't play around that card. Sure, you're giving them free lands, but I still got them with Leak after an Explorer had died.

Scavenging Ooze: This card wins Games against Delver, just make sure it resolves/lives. Worth the slot a thousand times.

Force of Will: I upped this to three, but am not sure this is correct.

General thoughts
The nature of the deck – every card either drawing cards, generating life or somehow being more valuable than a card – is awesome. If they are forced to kill or attack into Oracles and Strixes, the game goes in the right direction. However, I often struggled to find something that actually kills them. Fact or Fiction usually speeds this process along nicely. Strix beats are not very impressive. I noticed that I deeded most often for two and then proceeded to apply Witness beats.

The fact that you are playing blue makes most players afraid of counters and leaves them playing around Counterspell / Daze / Spell Pierce. It's really fun to watch. Just make sure they don't get that you have none. A timely "Wait!" and then shuffling your cards in hand can buy a lot of time.

One thing that makes it so hard to play the deck correctly is the fact that you don't play the usual Wasteland game, but quite the opposite. You give them lands. It's like yelling „Do your worst, I won't move“ - and after surviving this, killing them with raw card advantage. You need to be able to assess what cards pose an actual threat to you. This is hard, given the many ways in which the deck is able to deal with problematic stuff. Oftentimes, I struggled with what to call for flashbacked therapies, since I had two other ways to deal with the most dangerous card in my opponents hand.

I'm pretty sure my list wants 60 cards and a 22nd land. When I mulliganed into oblivion, it was usually due to the fact that I could not find two lands in my starting hand. It should possibly be a Misty Rainforest, but I'm not sure.

In fact, the Deck mulligans rather well. I remember one game in which I went to three cards and almost topdecked myself to a win – I kept Explorer, Tower, blank, I think? Anyway, the Explorer died and if I had found Deed in time, I simply would have won the match. Sadly, no Deed on top of my deck.

The most promising thought I had was adding some more pressure, since this list is a little faster than the Gifts version, I presume. I'm thinking about Vendilion Clique right now, since it synergizes with Cabal Therapy and gets rid of stuff you can't deal with. It also beats for 3 and does not die to a Deed for 2. I want to make the deck just a little faster and a little less grindy. If that route proves to be valuable, I can see cutting the third forest for a third Island and running actual Counterspells from the sideboard.

Oof. That one got rather long.

Thanks to Arianrhod, Qweerios and you guys for excellent advice and commentary. I hope we can make this into a real deck. Thanks for reading :)

Qweerios

07-26-2012, 02:56 PM

Good to see a report on an actual BUG Fit list (I call it BUG Fit when it packs Jace). After seeing your list and reading your report, I think more of your performance had to do with your deck than your illness than you think. I have been entirely dedicated to the blue splash for the past weeks and it really wreaks havoc in the mid/late game. However, it concedes the early game and you pretty much cross your fingers that your opponent doesn't combo or aggro-explode in your face. It is very easy to play a threat and follow up with a Stifle/Waste + Daze/Pierce/Snare/FoW and pretty much lock us out of the game in 2-3 turns. Nic Fit is already a strong deck against any form of aggro (fast or slow), and control decks. Its traditional nemesis is combo decks. This alone is what makes it a meta predator in a sea of RUG/Maverick. When you want to include a 3rd color to that delicate balance, you have to be careful as to what you are giving up and what you are taking away.

Here are a couple of things I am very adamant about concerning BUG lists:

Top > Brainstorm,

We don't play FoW MD, we can't dig for instant answers, and we can't abuse tempo in any aggressive fashion. Drawing 3 and shuffling away your 2 worst cards is great, but it rarely allows you to put a lock on the game, then what? Sometimes you don't even have shuffling effects and it becomes considerably worst. Top allows you to continuously sculpt your top 3 cards until you find what you desire. It is impervious to Deed and gains value with every passing turn. It will allow you to transform every single extra mana and shuffling effects into Portent.

Gifts > FoF,

This one is very simple, what is the purpose of that card? To produce insurmountable card advantage and bury your opponent in threats/disruption/answers the following turns. Gifts is a thousand times more flexible because it allows you to tutor up 4 cards in your deck over the next 2-3 turns. The traditional Gift pile of 2X Witness effects +2 wanted cards is rarely the go-to pile and I don't recommend it. However, between the Volrath Tower combo, a couple Titans, Witness, Loam, and a few utility lands, there is a lot of GY interactions that will corner your opponent in a matter of seconds. Gift piles offer emergency answers and inevitability while FoF may offer you either, but mostly, it allows you to durdle with your deck a bit longer until you finally achieve what you want. Gifts isn't something you have to look at in a vacuum, there are cards in play, in your hand, and in your GY prior to your first Gifts, and that's what makes it a monster in a deck with so many engines.

Other comments on cards:

Stryx is a waste of time. I'd rather spent my first turns ramping and disrupting my opponent than a cantriping 1/1 Fly/DT body. Stryx has value written all over it, but it is very narrow and of poor quality in a deck with such high aspirations. I find Viridian Emissary just as good if not better. Besides, play your full playset of GSZ before even considering Stryx, the latter pales in comparison to the prior.

Jace is powerful because he is the ultimate Phyrexian Arena for us. Fatesealing into victory isn't much of an option because we have other means of winning that offer more inevitability, card advantage, and that will simply finish our opponent faster. Fatesealing into victory is horribly slow when you can't keep your opponent in check with counterspells. There is a lot of good to be said about Jace but I don't feel like I can afford the mana cost and deck space at the moment.

Here is my latest list:

Creatures (16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

Spells (21)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

2 Gifts Ungiven

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Darkblast
1 Karakas

I have opted against Planeswalkers altogether because Gifts and Titans already offer so much value and inevitability that PWs have lost their appeal for board control (they have become win-more). The only PW I would consider is Jace in a control heavy meta. IB and TS have replaced Lily and Prime Titan has replaced Garruk. All of these changes greatly increase the synergy with the rest of the deck. I am now considering to replace Cabal Pit with Karakas and include a Damnation in the board. MD Karakas would give me a better G1 against Sneak Show and Reanimator as I can easely find it via Gifts/Titan. My goal with the GBu version is to maintain the raw strength of GB against aggro and tempo-aggro decks while increasing my odds against dedicated control and combo decks (AKA: adapting to the meta).

Arianrhod

07-26-2012, 04:06 PM

Okay -- I'm up to date on the posts, and I've got some stuff to say -- not too much, though, I think, because I've been working on the primer pretty much most of the day. I still have a few more lists to harvest and some more summaries to write...then it's just matchup analyses and it'll be good to go. I may end up having to post it somewhere else and have it linked here....it very well might be too big for its own good (looks like it's going to end up being around 35 pages in MSWord [keep in mind a fair bit of that is decklists, but still]).

I agree with some of what you said, Qweerios, but I'll remind you that he wants something a little closer to BUG Control powered by the Veteran engine (obv. reworking all of the traditional bug control choices in the process). He doesn't want GB Fit splashed blue. However, there's definitely a lot of merit to what you said even applied to his version.

Top is indeed quite sexy, especially with Coiling Oracle (although you can't set up Oracle for t2 like you can with EoT brainstorm). As incredibly awkward as it is to say this, I feel that the correct course of action is probably some weird combination of the two....like 3 Top/2 Brainstorm (or the other way around). One of the reasons Titans are so popular in the deck is because they generate value turn after turn. Qweerios is spot-on with that: repeatable advantage is king for attrition decks. That said, I feel the "Draw 3" boost of Brainstorm has its place too -- but rather than as a card advantage/quality staple, it's as a late-game refuel that can be used early to recover out of stumbling hands.

I'm personally a huge fan of Strix. Emissary is an interesting thought, but I feel like the fact that Strix takes something with it on the way out is relevant, and the fact that the land from Emissary comes in tapped is a deal killer for me. I'd definitely look into putting in the 3rd GSZ, though - probably at the expense of a Strix. Strix is kind of a sort of Moat replacement for the BUG version, because people are usually going to be afraid to swing into it.

I think most of us are on board with Gifts being better than Fact, but keep in mind that he didn't have time to learn Gifts piles before the event. Going forward, we'll be seeing a lot more Gifts, I feel. Some lists might still opt for a 1-of Fact, but I think Gifts is the king of the 4-drop blue instants [lolcryptic].

I like the way Qweerios described Jace -- as "our ultimate phyrexian arena." I do believe there are times when Jace is going to end up being your win condition -- and when your opponent has no field and no hand, obv. fateseal away. But I think that 75% of the time at least, you're going to be wanting him to Brainstorm with....which is another reason I'm questioning 4x Brainstorm.

I like the idea of Clique, actually. Not sure where the room is for it, but it seems like a good fit with the deck.

@KungFu -- I'd probably say drop the Relentless for a 2nd Baneslayer, personally. If you think there's going to be Sneak, definitely do that -- they get REALLY, REALLY angry when you drop a Baneslayer to their Griselbrand off of Show and Tell. World's most random protection, suddenly relevant.

@Claymore -- I have a few comments on your list, but overall it looks like a good place to start. Btw, have you considered Phyrexian Obliterator? I know we're getting a little too all-in on Culling, but good lord if you get Obliterator out early vs certain decks, you just win. Straight up.

It's really anti-synergistic with Deed, but what about Bitterblossom? Having an endless stream of tokens to Cull would alleviate some of the pressure of having to have a creature to sac. It would also force aggro opponents to overcommit into Deed. Probably too cute, though. Do some testing and see how it goes =)

Claymore

07-26-2012, 04:48 PM

I've thought about Obliterator, but the mana cost scares me and I worry about his board impact. A nice moat effect if nothing else... Also, you just made me think of Greater Harvester for some reason. Probably too dumb.

Bitterblossom. I like it. Gives the deck the early game it often lacks. Faeries for saccing against Fleshbag, Culling, or hell even Harvester if we put that ridiculousness in. Anti-synergy with Deed is probably good, because if you need to pop Deed then those tokens and life loss weren't helping. Gives the deck a bit of Deadguy Ale edge, which supposedly gives SnT problems based on comments over there.

Otherwise I'm gonna stay away from the BUG talk since I don't have pilot experience, haha.

HoneyT

07-26-2012, 06:52 PM

@Qweerios

That BUG list is by far the best looking one I've seen to date. There are a few things I would test though. I kind of want to see a third Green Sun's Zenith somewhere in the list. Also a Recurring Nightmare with the Gifts package seems reasonable. I think one Coiling Oracle can probably be cut safely. Not sure where to squeeze in the other yet. Got to test that. Obviously the sideboard is metagame dependant, but I think ten pinpoint discard spells plus four Negates is overkill against combo. That's not even counting the flashback on Therapy. I think two of the extra discard could be either something along the lines of Damnation and/or more graveyard hate. Just my thoughts, but the list looks really sick. I'm completely onboard with just a splash of blue.

Kung Fu English

07-26-2012, 09:23 PM

Arianrhod

07-26-2012, 09:36 PM

Depends largely on your meta, I'd say -- almost all of those would be good choices. In a fairly open meta I'd say Qasali or Arena. Should we be targeting anything specifically?

Claymore

07-26-2012, 10:12 PM

Without a Rector I'd suggest Pridemage, since a fairly open meta can bring all sorts of troubles and you can have a better game 1 toolbox

It allows for main board hate against Revoker/Needle, which will come out against your Deeds

Kung Fu English

07-26-2012, 11:04 PM

Depends largely on your meta, I'd say -- almost all of those would be good choices. In a fairly open meta I'd say Qasali or Arena. Should we be targeting anything specifically?

Nothing specific that I know of really. It will be a new meta for me. I think I either need pridemage or elder in the main or side so it's probably fine in the main.

Last q:
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Karakas

or

1 P Arena
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold?

Claymore

07-26-2012, 11:18 PM

Karakas will be a dead card in most of your matchups, especially without tutor ability. If you changed, say, Thrun (Sigarda is close enough) or Master of the Wild Hunt (you don't run Death Wolves anymore) to Primeval Titan, then I could see you rolling with the

1 P Arena
1 Karakas
1 Stronghold

package fairly well. Your Karakas would be more for removal than to protect your own dudes, and Stronghold gets you recursion of your utility critters.

Otherwise I'd roll with the 2 Arena/Karakas plan, since I'd rather give the deck extra consistency.

Arianrhod

07-27-2012, 08:38 AM

I'd two the 2x Arena + I guess Karakas. Where's the slot for the Karakas coming from? I prefer having a 3rd Plains, personally, because there are (corner) cases when you'll go like, forest veteran Tower, with Baneslayer and a plains in hand, and you'll rage. It DOES happen. Karakas will be decent when you find it, some of the time, but remember it's also another wasteland target, and you want to be as wasteland resistant as possible.

Double Arena seems fine, especially if your area has a lot of SCG wannabes that netdeck whatever's doing well at SCG, which lately has been Stoneblade (Arena will singlehandedly win you that matchup). And if you happen to run into burn, well, you know what to board out =P

Water_Wizard

07-27-2012, 08:08 PM

Claymore

07-27-2012, 09:19 PM

I did some google foo and came up with these (on the same page):

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=656848&viewfull=1#post656848

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=657705&viewfull=1#post657705
+the reply to this last one

----

I'm taking a more traditional GBw list to a tournament tomorrow...not sure at all what to expect, other than one guy who might bring Show and Tell Hive Mind, so I'm running with extra discard in the main board.

The deck is seeming to be vulnderable to aggro...specifically Merfolk, which can quickly overwhelm our defenses. If tribal is indeed having a resurgence, would it make sense to have Master of the Wild Hunt or something else in the sideboard? Garruk Relentless coming back to the main? Assuming for non-Moat builds

Water_Wizard

07-27-2012, 09:30 PM

Thank you for the link to those Gift piles. It certainly helps.

If you are expecting lots of Merfolk, Jund is the way to go. The extra Pyroblasts from the side really help (you definitely want to run Pyroblast here to target Phantasmial Image if it copies a non-blue creature). Plus, Huntmaster is better in a deck that can naturally cast him (without GSZ).

However, Rector build with Moat is just as solid.

If you are playing a traditional list, perhaps up the Pernicious Deed count? Carpet of Flowers is also a good sideboard swap for Veteran Explorer, as we don't really want to give Merfolk extra land.

I'm debating between the Jund with the Burning Wish board or the Jund without. If you run the Burning Wish board, Tsunami (as advocated by Arianrhod) and Firespout might be nice.

Arianrhod

07-28-2012, 12:24 AM

Tsunami is very situational against Fish - it's the kind of card you wish for and it can win you sometimes, but is largely irrelevant. Damnation is better than Firespout as a wish target -- they have too many lords for Spout to reliably kill everything anymore. Also, boarding out Veterans is a mistake. You want to ramp to big ramp ASAP -- giving them lands is largely irrelevant, because the deck is built to cheat on mana anyway. It's like Exploring vs burn. They're going to hit you hard and fast, but they're also going to burn out faster (pun intended). Fish is going to go apeshit, it's true -- but then you have a sweeper, and they die. Ironically, it's less dangerous is they're a good player and refuse to over-commit. While they can use the mana, you can always use it better. It also ramps you past their Dazes and Pierces...and they can't Pierce a Veteran, but they can (and will) a Carpet. You definitely want both.

All that being said, W_W is essentially right. If you're worried about aggro, specifically Fish, run Jund (w/Wish IMO, because I think it's the best Jund build), or Rector->Moat. Or you can play whatever version and have a passable matchup, but one that is loseable....though obviously you gain matchup points elsewhere.

IMO, Claymore, I wouldn't worry about additional maindeck discard. Hivemind is such an ass matchup already as is that I don't think a few extra discard spells maindeck are going to help it. That's one deck we just have to hope to dodge, and let the stack-based decks deal with. Unless you think there's going to be a lot of combo, I wouldn't dilute the deck.

I'll also be at an event tomorrow playing my Rector build, with a good friend who has picked up a 4cc Gifts version also present and piloting, so I should have some saucy details for you guys on Sunday. Good luck in your respective events!

Water_Wizard

07-28-2012, 07:39 AM

On a partially related note, the decklists from ELL are up: http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverage/top-8-decklists-ell-2012-julio

That Jund list looks absolutely atrocious. No idea how it got 2nd.

Just curious, what changes would you make to this list to make it 'less atrocious,' outside of adding the Burning Wish / Valakut / Scapeshift package?

Thanks!

Greenpoe

07-28-2012, 08:22 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the Scapeshift combo is all that great since it requires you to have a bunch of basic mountains and Valakut. Plus, you can't play out these Mountains (not via Explorer or fetches) if you want your combo you go off unless you've got spare mountains. But if you do have spare basic mountains, then it makes the manabase of your 3-color deck even weaker. This manabase will cause you to lose games. Plus, if they've gained life (say, via Batterskull) the Valakut combo may not even kill them. Personally I'd say that Call the Skybreaker is a better win-con for Burning Wish builds. With Retrace, it doesn't matter if they counter it, and more importantly, you don't have to build your manabase around it.

Arianrhod

07-28-2012, 09:40 AM

Valakut doesn't care if they've gained life. A fully-powered Scapeshift is going to do somewhere upwards of 42 (or more....42 is the highest I hit when I ran it) damage. Also, keep in mind that this isn't standard from a few years ago. We aren't running 12 mountains in our mono-green deck. We have duals. I ran three basic mountains last time because I couldn't find a second Stomping Ground, but I think that three mountains is actually correct the more I pondered it. The mana base actually doesn't cause any issues. Wood Elves is a beast, and goes a long way towards smoothing it out. You can always choose not to get mountains, too. One game my opponent thought I was just splashing red, because I only had one basic mountain out, compared to the rest of my like 7 lands. Then I Scapeshifted, and he died. You just make sure you aren't dicking yourself over on what lands you're playing. Personally, I wouldn't leave home with the Red version and without Wish/Scapeshift. They give you the ability to win games you should never win. And you can goldfish on turn 4 fairly easily. In magical Christmas land, turn 3 is possible:

t1: forest -> Vet
t2: tower -> GGBBR -> Wood Elves (GR+B) -> GSZ@1 (Vet) -> Therapy -> flashback Therapy (GG)
t3: forest x4, bayou, tower, mountain as lands available. Scapeshift (or Burning for Scapeshift) for the win.

@W_W: I don't even know. Putting in Scapeshift would require too many fundamental changes. I think straight Jund w/Wish should be possible, though, so we can make that happen. I know the very first thing I would do is get Deranged Hermit out of my sight. That card is trash. Beyond that, I'd try to find room for Primeval -> two towers, a third Huntmaster (probably dropping the Finks), I'd ditch the Lilianas and the Inquisitions, probably cut most, if not all, of the non-Pulse spot removal, possibly in favor of Bolts? I don't really know what a straight Jund version would look like -- I'm of the opinion that each splash must add a gimmick of some kind to the deck...specifically a secondary tutor package to backup GSZ. (White -> Rector, Blue -> Gifts, Red -> Burning Wish). Obviously like the Rock builds (white w/o Rector) are successful, but they aren't to my "taste," if that makes sense.

Water_Wizard

07-28-2012, 03:17 PM

Thanks for your response!

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I like the Jund list because I like access to red for Pyroblasts out of the board. I feel Nic Fit is well-positioned in the current meta and as you mentioned a few posts ago, we have the surprise factor (or rather, it is likely opponents will be playing less than optimally against us).

I ran the list from manainfinato last night, making a few changes. I removed 2 Ghastly Demise and 2 Terminate for 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Life from the Loam, and an Eternal Witness. The Life from the Loam was bad. I only included it for Liliana advantage, but it never became an issue.

It's like you've almost read my mind. I wanted to run a Jund build, and even considered a wish build, but I wasn't sold on the Valakut plan. However, you make a good argument for its inclusion, plus it is completely unexpected. I imagine counter-magic is one of the first things people side out against us in favor of graveyard hate and creature removal. Therefore, the Scapeshift package is a nice alternative kill that really does provide an alternate - it gets around creature kill, Humility, Moat, etc. and deals colorless damage to the dome. Additionally, it packs a huge surprise factor. When opponents are sequencing their plays, I imagine they count our creature damage on board in order to determine how many turns they have left. No one sees a Scapeshift for 20.

Huntmaster was awesome last night. I ran 2, but I may up it to 3 because it was that good. Huntmaster vs. Liliana created some awesome situations where any other creature would have just died.

I think you are spot-on about Lightning Bolts. I found myself wanting them, but I remember you castigating someone about their inclusion a few posts back. However, for the Jund version, at least the non-Valakut version, Lightning Bolt is a good card to have.

I also like Liliana because of her ability to lock-out games, but I don't want to open up that debate- I've read over the past couple of pages and I can understand arguments for and against Lil and I think both sides are right. In a Emrakul / Griselbrand heavy environment, I think Lil pulls some weight and is necessary.

To summarize, we have 3 versions of the Jund list (thus far):

creature Jund or straight Jund - runs Lils, but not tutor package - http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverage/top-8-decklists-ell-2012-julio

Scapeshift Jund, as developed by Arianrhod - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)/page76 (How do I like to a post and not to a page?)

Burning-Wish Jund - to be developed - uses the Burning Wish toolbox, but without Valakut. Here are some Aggro Loam decks upon which we can leverage information:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22806_Drinking_From_The_Dead_Guy_Ale_Toolbox_Loam.html
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8272&iddeck=60306
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8633&iddeck=62995
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42671

from Cairo

07-28-2012, 05:44 PM

Hello,
Does anyone remember what post the Gift Piles were discussed in? I know a few months ago Qweerios summarized the different NicFit versions and I believe there was a discussion of Gift Piles around that point.
This is all the more need for a wiki style thread, to promote dynamic discussion by section as opposed to linear, disjointed discussions.
I'm interested in the BUG version and I would like to read up on Gift Piles before I begin.
Thank you guys :smile:

I looked back in the posts around page 50 and I didn't have any luck find the gift piles. I also did a search on "Gift Piles" and perhaps I am searching incorrectly, but it didn't produce any useful results.

I've been messing around with the BUG Gifts version and have found some interactions/piles that might be of interest, depending on the meta one's building towards.

My list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Eternal Witness
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Fierce Empath
1 Boneshredder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Unearth

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ghastly Demise

3 Sensei's Divining Top

This list allows for piles including Unearth and Phantasmal Image. Often the deck does the straight forward Nic Fit plan of ramp and Mind Twist via Explorers/Oracles and Therapy, hit a Pernicious Deed for 3-4, and either jam Empath/Grave Titan or Gifts into a Recurring Nightmare loop. With 3 GSZ and 3 Witness it usually has that card online before Gifts so the piles often are...

Unearth
Phantasmal Image
Recurring Nightmare

+

Kokusho / Boneshredder / Finks / Therapy

Kokusho is the most mana intensive obviously, but with Image it usually kills in 2 turns if you have 5 mana with a Tower or 6 w/o available. Boneshredder has proven pretty good as a way to stabilize in a turn or two against agro, then one can Witness Gifts and pull up a legit kill. Finks is obviously good when one's life total is on the ropes, having Persist is interesting with Image as well. Therapy is a good one to add to the pile if they're not in topdeck mode already, with Witness and Image you guarantee an empty grip whether they give you Therapy or yard it.

To be fair I'm still working on optimizing my spell orders for maximum profit with these creatures, but I think the CMC 3 plan with Unearth and Image is a more compact option than slot of the BUG Gifts engines I've seen.

The SB I'm currently testing is

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Trygon Predator

Let me know what you guys think.

Water_Wizard

07-28-2012, 08:40 PM

This might be kind of a dumb-dumb question, but could someone please explain to me the basic Valakut situations with Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, and Veteran Explorer? (I don't play Standard and I have played against Valakut a grand total of 1 time, so I don't really understand all of the coming into play effects).

If you could include a few basic scenarios. I see from Arianrhod below, that 7 lands + Scapeshift = game.

I found this on gatherer, which helps out a little, "f multiple Mountains enter the battlefield under your control at the same time, Valakut's second ability could trigger that many times. Each ability takes into consideration the other Mountains that entered the battlefield at the same time as the one that caused it to trigger."

so 6 mountains plust Valakut = 18 damage?

@ Ali - thanks for the list / Gift piles.

Claymore

07-28-2012, 11:23 PM

Yes I believe that's how it works. You can scale shift for Valakut plus a bunch of mountain cards and they will all trigger off of Valakut

---

I ran GBw at a local tournament and went 2-1, beating some sort of enchantment deck and a WUG tempo that ran NO/Prog in the sideboard. Lost to Hivemind. I ran a fairly typical deck with x2 Duress and x1 Living Death main board, removal being x2 Flesh bags with bombs being Sun and Grave titans, Kokusho, Sigarda, and maybe something else.

Enchantment was uneventful. Game 2 I duress and see he has Desolation Angel, but decide to accelerate him into it anyway, going as far as Rector out Phyrexian Arena. I have removal in hand for the Angel and take out my own Arena to end at 1 Life before getting out Kokusho to stabilize and win.

Match up against Hivemind had a promising hand when I T1 Duress for Hivemind I think, then Cabal Therapy for Pact of Negation x2 and flash backed Therapy with Ooze to take x2 Emrakul. However, I can't get any pressure even when I use Rector to fetch Arena when he eventually gets a Hivemind and red Pact.

I side in 10 cards, including 4 Surgicals, 4 Guttural Response, Teeg, and Cranial. My hand is slow but I keep the x2 Guttural, Teeg with Explorers. Turn 3 I play Teeg and start the beat down with Teeg and a few Explorers. Opponent is completely locked except he can play Faerie Macabre for defense. An Eternal Witness comes down for me and I get him to 4 with x2 Guttural (I countered a dig card then returned the guttural) and GSZ in hand, but its Teeg facing a lone Faerie. I can't top deck any thing and he gets Slaughter Pact to kill Teeg, followed by casting Hivemind and the red pact to kill me.

WUG went fairly smoothly, game 1 he Forced a Scavenging Ooze and then forced Oblivion Ring, but was drained by the time I Pulsed his Knight and eventually got GSZ for Sigarda. From watching earlier games I knew he was bringing in NO/Prog, so I bring in Cranial and something else. I keep a slow hand and he GSZ for Dryad Arbor followed by NO. I draw zero spells to deal with it and die. Game 3 I get Cranial in my mulligan hand. I get turn 1 Explorer with turn 2 Tower and decide to go all in on Cranial Extraction since he used Verdant Catacombs for Dryad Arbor. He Dazes it and I pay the one, then extract Progenitus (should I take Natural Order?). I win from there with Grave Titan smash with Sun Titan back up.

I did like my x2 duress, didn't feel like it diluted the deck since my list is aimed at long term control and it helps with our horrible combo match up...despite my 0-2 record tonight. I still think it gives us a better chance.

CRich3

07-29-2012, 12:21 AM

I have been reading this tread as much as I can, I'm on page 65 now (kind of awkward reading in reverse). I been looking at all the deck lists and going through all the card choices as much as I can. And it seems like I am playing this deck completely wrong, which is probably why my match up results are different. It seems it should be played as a control deck rather than an aggro deck. So now I have a few questions.

For BUG it seems it has very few win conditions. They have 2-3 creatures that can actually end a game. It seems like Swords to Plowshares could potential take you out of the game, unless you plan on getting there with 1/1's.

The Jund version looks like it is very inconsistant. I have really only looked at the Valakut version though. But what do you do with all the red mana you have? If you draw your red mana then that makes scapeshifting kind of bad. Maybe I just need to actually play with it to see. But I can see how you have a better win% vs blue based decks because you have the ability to stop them from stopping you plus they have to worry about your creatures. It just seems a little inconsisitant with no use for all the red mana.

Still researching the Rector version.

Also I learned the hardway that Leyline of the Void opening hand is pretty bad for this deck. It complete shuts of Veteran Explorer and every other whenever this creature dies ability.

from Cairo

07-29-2012, 04:52 AM

I have been reading this tread as much as I can, I'm on page 65 now (kind of awkward reading in reverse). I been looking at all the deck lists and going through all the card choices as much as I can. And it seems like I am playing this deck completely wrong, which is probably why my match up results are different. It seems it should be played as a control deck rather than an aggro deck. So now I have a few questions.

Nic Fit is definitely closer to the control end of the spectrum than the agro end. Against combo the deck tends to have to be proactive and aggressive, but versus agro and control, it's positioned to win the long game.

For BUG it seems it has very few win conditions. They have 2-3 creatures that can actually end a game. It seems like Swords to Plowshares could potential take you out of the game, unless you plan on getting there with 1/1's.

Hence why the deck is armed with Cabal Therapy and in the Blue version some sort of resilient card manipulation engine that should ensure discard is available to actively disarm the opponent of Exile based removal for the critical couple of turns to win.

Water_Wizard

07-29-2012, 05:29 AM

Okay, so I've done some gold fishing with the Jund Scapeshift list. Overall, I think it's powerful and packs an unexpected finish in Scapeshift. Scapeshift is nice because it circumvents all creature hate.

I'll start with my list (modified from Arianrhod's) and sideboard and discuss my decisions.

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon
1x Scavenging Ooze

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scapeshift

3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Pernicious Deed

4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
5x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//SB
3x Pyroblast
1x Scapeshift
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Massacre
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Thoughtseize
1x Reverent Silence
1x Damnation
1x Reanimate
1x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Pulverize

So, I think 3 Mountains is correct for the maindeck (as opposed to 2 Mountains and 2 Stomping Grounds). Basic mountains may be searched for with Veteran Explorer, which can become relevant in the late game.

I added a Scavenging Ooze to the maindeck, because the maindeck felt very weak to graveyard decks without it.

I cut to 1 Wood Elf as a GSZ target (for ramp and to pull Mountains for Valakut). This is a slot I need to test more, Arianrhod said they were his MVP). (1 Wood Elf was cut for Scavenging Ooze, the 2nd was cut to make it a 60 card deck).

I considered running 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. I still not sure it's a 3 of. I consider the 3rd Huntmaster the 60th card in the deck. I considered a Thrun or a Wickerbough Elder in this slot. Thrun didn't seem necessary because of the prevalence of Terminus (hexproof doesn't matter as much anymore) and the alternative kill of Valakut makes it less necessary to creature kill.

I tried a Wickerbough Elder in the main, but I figured with 3 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Maelstrom Pulses main and 1 Reverent Silence, 1 Pulverize, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse with the Burning Wish sideboard, I had enough artifact and enchantment hate.

I plan to replace Kitchen Finks with Thragtusk once its price drops online. M13 just came out 3 days ago online and Thragtusk is trading for $14. I believe it will drop to $6 over the next 2 weeks, so I'm waiting to purchase it.

Other than that, it's Arianrhod's list.

The mana base is interesting. At first, the no fetches seemed weird. However, the deck still packs plenty of shuffle effects for Sensei's Diving Top in the form of Veteran Explorer, Wood Elves, Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, and Green Sun's Zenith (12 shuffle effects). 24 lands seems a bit much. I wonder if the deck couldn't shave a Forest for a Wood Elf.

The sideboard is interesting and is where I had to make the most difficult cuts.

3 Pyroblast
1 Pulverize
1 Scapeshift
1 Regrowth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Massacre
1 Haunting Echoes

The first thing that struck me about this deck was that it is cold to graveyard strategies. In Arianrhod's build, the only graveyard hate is a side board Haunting Echoes. I added an Ooze main, but 2 pieces of graveyard hate isn't going to go to far, especially when Haunting Echoes costs 7 to find with Burning Wish. What are some other good sorcery speed graveyard hate options?

Virtue's Rain does not exist online, or else the Massacre would be a Virtue's Rain. I considered Perish as an answer to Elves, but every single creature in this deck is green, besides the Broodmate Dragon token, so I ruled that out.

Pulverize is solid versus Affinity and MUD and can be cast on turn 2, which is strong when Affinity drops their entire hand turn 1.

Pyroblasts are solid against Merfolk and come in against pretty much any blue deck. I consider Pyroblast as one of the primary reasons for running the Jund version of Nic Fit.

I tried Chainer's Edict over Innocent Blood. I realize Innocent Blood can be used to sacrifice your own Veteran Explorers, but so can Chainer's Edict. Edict is nice because it can be used twice. I couldn't think of too many situations where I would want to Wish for Innocent Blood to sacrifice my own Explorer and a lot more where I would be sacrificing a creature that I wanted to keep around.

Haunting Echoes is very, very solid vs. graveyard decks and other decks, it's just a question of if we can get it off in time. With LED dredge being able to go off very quickly, I wonder if some number of Nihil Spellbombs, Tormod's Crypts, Surgical Extractions, or Extirpates are not appropriate.

Thoughtseize seems nice, but am I really going to have to Burning Wish for a Thoughtseize to take a crucial card? I guess Cabal Therapy could present a situation where that was necessary.

Reanimate is also nice, but I wonder how applicable it is. A Reanimator deck is more likely to Entomb end of turn and it is unlikely they will leave a creature in their graveyard. Perhaps there is the possibility they just don't see Reanimate coming, but I think Burning Wish ->Reanimate just seems awfully slow versus a deck that can bring a fattie into play on turn 2. This slot may also be best as some kind of graveyard hate.

Scapeshift, Pulse, and Damnation are all self-explanatory.

Reverent Silence is one of the cards I was on the fence about. While Reverent Silence is very strong, I'm not sure it is necessary in the current meta. While it wrecks Enchantress, there isn't exactly much Enchantress running around these days. Additionally, the alternative Valakut kill means cards like Humility and Moat don't matter as much. I also considered Hull Breach for this slot, but I couldn't think of many situations where I would want to kill an enchantment and an artifact at the same time.

Regrowth is another card I am on the fence about and I may cut it. Burning Wish for Regrowth for graveyard card seems a bit convoluted, especially with 2 Eternal Witness in the deck. I think it would be best to run the 4th Green Sun's Zenith in the board and GSZ for E. Witness. It costs 2 more mana, but the GSZ in the board has much broader applications. I'm going to replace the Regrowth with a GSZ and put a 2nd Wood Elves in the deck.

Cranial Extraction is another card I am on the fence about. While Cranial is very powerful, it is also very expensive and I can't think of many decks it absolutely wrecks. Sneak and Show has both Sneak and Show (I guess Cabal Therapy information could make Cranial Extraction particularly devastating). Hive Mind has the alternate kill Show and Tell into Emrakul. Storm often keeps an alterative kill in their sideboard. I just can't think of many match-ups where Cranial Extraction shines.

Cards that didn't make the cut:
Night's Whisper - why not run Sign in Blood instead? The double black is unlikely to be a factor and Sign in Blood can act as a Shock vs. an opponent, pushing through those last few points of damage. In any event, I would rather tutor for GSZ and find a creature. Huntmaster can deal 2 as well.

Pyroclasm/Firespout - both are contenders if the meta shifts. This deck has solid removal in the form of Pernicious Deed, so I'm not sure if extra sweepers are necessary, but Pyroclasm/Firespout increases the threat count.

4th GSZ - this may be a move I'll consider. Probably replacing the Regrowth. EDIT - I actually decided to do it and add an extra Wood Elves in the main. GSZ also creates the option of turning Burning Wish into a creature.

Life from the Loam - Nic Fit doesn't historically run Wasteland, but if it did, Life from the Loam is nice. This version is also not running Liliana, but Life from the Loam creates awesome Liliana locks. Because this deck doesn't even run fetchlands, so Life from the Loam is out.

Shattering Spree - solid. I considered this over Pulverize, but I like the ability to cast a turn 2 Pulverize. Because lands shouldn't be that much of an issue in this deck and we are running plenty of mountains, Pulverize gets the nod over Shattering Spree.

Hull Breach - see above.

EDIT:
I modified the deck list and sideboard above as follows:

MAIN
-1 Forest
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+2 Wood Elves

SIDEBOARD
-1 Regrowth
-1 Cranial Extraction
-1 Haunting Echoes
-1 Pyroblast
+1 GSZ
+1 Extirpate
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Surgical Extraction

I'm still on the fence about Reanimate and Thoughtseize, and I am leaning towards switching a Reanimate for a 3rd Pyroblast or 4th piece of graveyard hate.

I just played a match vs. Merfolk and I sided out the Burning Wish package - 4 Burning Wish, -2 Wood Elves, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Chainer's Edict, +1 Damnation. +1 Green Sun's Zenith, +1 Maelstrom Pulse - this seemed like a good sideboarding strategy.
Deed rocks in the match up and Huntmaster is some good as well. I agree with Arianrhod, Veteran Explorer does not help them out that much. While they can pull out a lot of Islands, it is much more necessary for us to ramp.

I'm still not sold on the 4th GSZ in the board. I like to have 4 main. However, it is nice to be able to turn Burning Wish into creatures.

Arianrhod

07-29-2012, 11:22 AM

That was a hell of a post -- I like it.

A few counterpoints:

Two Huntmasters is more correct then two Wood Elves. Wood Elves is amazing in the deck not because of the ramp (which is sweet) or because the land comes in untapped (which is baller with Top), but because it fixes your mana in a deck without fetchlands. The reason the deck runs 5 Forests is because you really, really want a Forest. At the point at which you have a Forest, between Vet and Wood Elves, you've got everything, and the consistency (or lack thereof) fails to matter anymore.

Ooze is fine. I actually had him in the Jund Scapeshift list for a while, but eventually cut him for one of the Wood Elves spots. I have no complaints about him coming back -- this version is definitely much weaker to fast graveyard strategies.

Pulverize is boss. I had no idea that card existed. Saccing two mountains is a little painful, but the amount of damage that's going to do to the decks that we'd Wish for it is astonishing.

Chainer's may well be superior. The reason I opted for Innocent Blood is because usually the decks where you're going to NEED it against (Show and Tell), are going to drop Show and Tell -early-, and you might not have the 4 mana to Wish + Edict. If you're on the play and they go turn two Show-Emrakul, Edict won't get the job done. I do agree that in non-Show and Tell scenarios, Edict is better, but I think that the corner case is significant enough to merit inclusion.

Haunting Echoes is not just graveyard hate - it's also an alternate wincon if the game goes long =D

Thoughtseize can probably be cut. Cranial needs to be in the deck before Thoughtseize, anyway. Cranial is good because it can hurt combo decks. Taking out a combo deck's Sneak Attacks, or Time Spirals, or LEDs, or Infernal Tutors, or whatever won't necessary kill them. But it'll slow them down enormously, while we find an Eternal Witness can take more of their things. Cranial gives the deck a prison strategy against combo decks (and attrition mirrors). I've actually had two games now (one yesterday) with my Rector version where, in the attrition mirror, I have literally Cranial'd all of my opponent's creatures out of his deck. The funny thing is I wasn't even looping Nightmare (he Extirpated it :| )...I was saccing a Witness to Tower every turn and swinging with Sun Titan to recur it. He had like 80 life. It took a while.

Reverent seems good if you have an Enchantress problem. Otherwise, I'd leave it at home. We don't care about Counterbalance -that- much (at this point in time).

Reanimate adds another interesting dimension to the deck. You can cheat out your stuff with it (Therapy yourself, name Primeval, reanimate). You can also use it just to grab one of your opponent's beatsticks in the lategame. Paying 2 life for a Tarmogoyf is perfectly acceptable. And then sometimes there'll be those rare wondrous moments when you're playing vs Reanimator or Sneak. What you do there is you Cabal Therapy them naming Griselbrand (or one of their other dudes if you think they have it). Then you Reanimate it. They won't usually leave it exposed, because they'll usually Entomb...but sometimes they will Careful Study, and that'll provide an opening too. Just remember that you can force an opening with Therapy.

Regrowth may well be too clunky, but I did find myself wish I had it in my board the first time I played the deck (pun intended). That gives the deck 10 regrowth effects between main and sideboard, counting the Wishes and the GSZ.

Also, don't forget about Qweerios's (I believe) suggestion of Natural Order. I am definitely on board with that. Broodmate Dragon has been very underwhelming to me, which is probably frightening. I'm inclined towards either Gaea's Revenge or Damia, Sage of Stone. Damia would probably require a little trickery in the mana base, but I think it COULD be done. Whether or not it SHOULD is another question entirely. I like the idea of having that much gas, but I'm not sure. Maybe it would be best to just run it and not change the mana base and say fuck it. If it gets in our hand, we can Therapy it and Reanimate, I guess. Otherwise, Burning->NO / GSZ should be sufficient to get it out. Gaea's Revenge is a hilarious thought, but I don't know how good it would be. I mean, being able to just dome somebody for 8 out of literal nowhere would be pretty amusing, and it has its own protection built in -- it's not going to get Swords'd or any such. I dunno. It's an interesting thought.

Took third at my LGS's event yesterday. Fairly uneventful day...died in the swiss and then again in the quarters to the same Canadian Thresh deck, which irritated me. My deck literally dug in its heels and straight up refused to work against him for whatever reason. Other than that, deck seemed fine. Nothing really too exciting to report, so I'm not going to go into greater detail.

Megadeus

07-29-2012, 11:47 AM

If we are talking wish boards, what about a Living Wish board? We could even run like a wasteland for random problematic lands. We could have SB GY hate with Bojuka bog/scavenging ooze, some burn hate in finks (or huntmaster) and other stuff. I know that GSZ already does some work, but that way you can run some non green guys that do good stuff for us out of the board. Yixilid Jailer even? Just a thought.

Edit: also in the punishing fire builds living can get a grove.

Claymore

07-29-2012, 02:19 PM

I'll add that in the innocent blood vs chain's edict question, the times you want an edict effect they often will have Misdirection to make you sac a creature instead.

PollePotDK

07-29-2012, 05:08 PM

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 12:32 AM

from Cairo

07-30-2012, 01:10 AM

@Cairo,

Unearth in a Gifts version sounds sick, and so does Phantasmal Image. I love how you can chain Witnesses with Unearth. I would definitely suggest Fleshbag Marauder > Boneshredder. Also, in my latest testing, I have concluded that more GSZ is better than Oracles, therefore unless I have 4 GSZ in my list, there is no point in having Oracles. GSZ is an Explorer on T2 for 1G. It scales much better than Oracle throughout the game and won't force you into a blue mana on T2.

I like that Boneshredder targets against Maverick and Tribal, prioritizing targets can be relevant, rather than them saccing a Noble, Cursecatcher or Mogg War Marshall token, etc. Versus Reanimator and Sneak and Show there's the option to use Image to Legend rule and/or Eternal Witness an Innocent Blood back. I do run Fleshbag Marauder SB for situations where it's better or additional removal is desired.

The 4th Zenith over the 3rd Oracle seems probably correct. I'll give that swap a try, thanks for the feedback.

Water_Wizard

07-30-2012, 03:57 AM

I'm playing the GBw list and the Jund list and with the experience I have had is, how to respons to a turn 1 Lackey or Delver flip, when you don't have a Stp or Lightning blot in hand and cant ramp because of no Explorer? I know you will say "don't keep that hand then". Deed is essentielly the only sweeper we have next to Pulse. That and gravehate is my only worry with this denk - else LOVE playing this deck.
/PollePotDK

I had a similar revelation last night.

To begin, I was running the Burning Wish / Scapeshift version of the deck. Scapeshift/Valakut takes up 6 slots in the main and 1 in the board while weakening your mana base. The 6 main deck slots are 3 Wood Elves, 2 Scapeshift, and 1 Land (because you are running 23 land in BurningShift, while you only need 22 in Nic Fit). Additionally, your mana base is weakened - no fetches for mana fixing, hence the Wood Elves, and you need extra Forests, 2 coming-into-play tapped lands (Valakut) and a Stomping Grounds for an extra mountain.

I decided to cut the Scapeshift package and run Burning Wish Jund.

I removed the 3 Wood Elves, 2 Scapeshifts, and 1 land (tweaking the manabase to remove Mountains and add 8 fetches) and added 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Thoughtseize.

Nic Fit is built to beat all the fair decks, which it does quite well. It struggles against the unfair decks, hence the extra discard.

Then, I began looking at my Burning Wish board. I looked at what it added. I had Pulverize for Affinity and MUD and I had Reverent Silence for Enchantress. But I also had Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse. Pulverize didn't really work with the non-Valakut mana base. Because I was only running 3 Mountains, the chances of seeing 2 on turn 2 were slim to none, even with fetches. (the Valakut version runs 11 Mountains). I had black cards like Reanimate, Innocent Blood, and Cranial Extraction. It seemed like Liliana and discard performed similar functions, only more quickly and with less mana.

When I played against Zoo, I boarded out 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Burning Wish for 1 Damnation, 1 Massacre, 1 Chainer's Edict, 1 Reanimate, 1 Green Sun's Zenith, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse. I figured the chances of drawing any of the Wish targets individually did not outweigh the extra mana and exposed information Burning Wish required.

So, I decided to cut the Burning Wish package all together, adding 3 Liliana's and 1 Green Sun's Zenith.

I know Liliana is controversial in this deck, but it helps us win the matches we are weak to and most times we are not holding any cards in hand (the +1 hurts us much less than our opponents).

Claymore

07-30-2012, 08:56 AM

Megadeus

07-30-2012, 12:14 PM

Liliana is a fine card on her own... You don't need anything to support her. Like has been said, we have arguably the best top decks in the format, and she gets you there. Even just game 1 she seals the game up for you. And she is better than a lot of things due to her being solid against anything

Claymore

07-30-2012, 12:46 PM

That's fine that we can top deck Titans, but its not going to stop combo from going off on turn 1-3. Liliana's slow and untargetted discard against combo is no better than a Raven's crime on turn 2 or 3, and Raven's Crime is certainly not keeping Show and Tell or Ad Naseum in control these days. She alone will not get you to top deck mode against combo decks because you'll be dead before she gets even 5 counters.

However, Liliana along with extra targeted discard spells (need more than just Cabal Therapy) might be good for helping those of us in combo metas survive games 2 and 3, since we can target win cons or enablers first (T1 Duress/Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy) and then have Liliana keep consistent pressure until we can finish the game.

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 01:03 PM

conboy31

07-30-2012, 01:07 PM

FinnF

07-30-2012, 02:11 PM

Qweerios:

Vampire Hexmage might be useful as a Living Wish target, primarily to deal with problematic Planeswalkers (jace)...

Boogie_Man

07-30-2012, 02:22 PM

I was wondering why there is no arbor, it would seem that the acceleration from gsz would be useful, plus you can fetch one whenever to avoid taking damage or saccing something you don't want.

Also. why don't you run force in the blue deck, at least in the side maybe?

Sorry if these are silly questions or they've been addressed.

Arianrhod

07-30-2012, 02:44 PM

Okay, I'm far past the point of repeating answers to the same questions and concerns over and over again. I'm going to focus on the primer for now, and when someone who has proven their loyalty the thread asks for advice.

To-wit, Qweerios:

Metamorph seems like it overlaps in purpose with Karakas an awful lot. What are you intending on using the Metamorph for? Copying a Batterskull or some such?

Macabre doesn't seem very good because they're going to know you have it. Reanimator will likely just Thoughtseize it and then go off anyway, and vs Dredge, it isn't going to do enough. I'd consider a Yixlid Jailer.

Other than that, it looks fairly solid, although I'd caution you to run at least 3 or pref. the full 4 Wishes, or you'll be disappointed in them. If you had like one or two hate cards and a bomb in your board, then two would be fine -- but the way you have it configured atm, I don't think that two is going to be enough.

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 02:45 PM

@Boogie,

Ramping with Dryad via GSZ isn't really an option. We don't keep 1 land hands like Mav and a GSZ @1 will get u the explorer you need instead. Dryad isn't bad in the GB version but it is certainly bad in the tricolored ones. It acts mostly as an emergency Therapy body but mostly its just a summoning sick nonbasic forest that dies to removal and Deed. I would definitely pack one if I intend to play with Recurring Nightmare though.

I don't think SB FoW is a good idea because there isn't many good maindeck blue cards for Nic Fit, therefore, there is rarely ever anything to pitch to it unless you have a blue core. As a SB option, Pierce, Fluster, and Negate are all better.

@FinnF,

Oh yeah, I definitely want Hexmage somewhere in there. Perhaps instead of Finks.

@Arianrhod,

Metamorph also works against Progenitus and is also an out to Sigarda. I like Macabre because I can side it in as GY hate G2 and still have Bog as a wish target. It is also uncounterable and I can use it the moment I choose to wish (T2 vs reanimator), so no more EoT Entomb followed by T2 Exhume. As for the number of wishes, I only really want Wish for silver bullets. Some of the wish targets like Macabre, Finks, Shriek, and Ichneumon are all cards I can side in without worrying about having nothing to wish for that would be relevant to the MU except for storm where I side in Ichneumon Druid and wish for ? Lodestone Golem, maybe?

Claymore

07-30-2012, 03:03 PM

Metamorph can kill Emrakul and Progentitus. I was about to suggest Fleshbag Marauder for the same purpose but Metamorph seems a better fit.

Arianrhod

07-30-2012, 03:03 PM

Why would you have to worry about Sigarda? Is there some asshole Maverick playing running her? Progenitus is a valid complaint, although I'd think that Liliana and I.Blood would take care of that problem.

I feel that since you're running wish for silver bullets, that actually means you want more of them than if you were running it just for more threat density. Those bullets are so powerful that you want them early against the relevant decks.

What about a slight, slight white splash? I'm thinking specifically of Canonist and Kataki, which are both really powerful hosers. Canonist would allow you to side in Ichneumon for GSZ, and then have a wish target. It would also open up Teeg, if you wanted to go that route. I'm not suggesting anything more than the slightest of splashes....like one Savannah and one Plains, maybe. Seems much better than Lodestone, in any event.

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 04:04 PM

I would take Thalia and Teeg before Canonist but overall, yes, a white dual land could allow me to pack those. I agree that Prog is really not an issue for our deck but I do struggle against Sigarda when I encounter her. However, you make a good point with the overlap and I will probably cut Metamorph. If I do splash white (Savannah + Plains or something like that), then I won't want Ichneumon Druid at all since I will have access to Teeg and Thalia.

Viridia

07-30-2012, 04:12 PM

Last night I played some pre and bost board games with a normal GBw version against the top 8 miracle Ghent countertop deck. If anyone else is running GBw and has cut Thrun, you are going to be tough pressed to beat the miracle countertop deck. They have 3 Jaces and a counterbalance curve that goes from 1 to 6 (terminus). As mentioned by another previous poster, it is imperative to resolve a deeds and keep it on the board, because EOT Angels will kill us.

A friend of mine who is an extremely good control and counterbalance player plays almost the same list and i'm having real big problems beating the deck, i figured it would be 45/55 or 40/60 but it seems even worse. Postboard gets a little bit better but still not good.

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 04:20 PM

Miracle is nearly impossible to beat without Planeswalkers.

Claymore

07-30-2012, 05:01 PM

If you really want to be an asshole, you can run Silklash Spider in the board. Block Sigarda all day long and wipe out every Entreat token to boot.

Or Arashi, the Sky Asunder if you don't want to bother with your trump card getting countered, which I've used hilariously against Splinter Twin in Modern.

Water_Wizard

07-30-2012, 05:24 PM

Liliana helps beat combo, but I'd think she'd be better from the sideboard. She alone can not get you the win unless they are a horrible player and keep a very bad hand, so you need to bring in support cards for her that will dilute your deck anyway.

Games 2/3 when you have active hate going I can def see her helping, or if you destroy their hand with t1 and t2 discard then she can finish off the match with ease. She would've been great in my game against Hive Mind to finish out the match after I locked him out with Gaddock Teeg.

However, just her alone will do absolutely nothing. Turn 2 Liliana they'll discard a land and then kill you next turn with their two card combo. The deck needs targetted discard and/or Cranial effects to level the playing field and get the win against combo.

I'm gonna experiment with a few from the board, see what happens...

How did your experiment turn out? Your comments focus only on creature-less combo (Storm, High Tide, Belcher) and not Sneak-a-Fattie-into-Play (Sneak and Show / Reanimator). Liliana's -2 is highly relevant against the s-a-f-i-p decks, especially they're non-hasted fatties.

The fact that Liliana is permanent also makes a big difference. If you can 'lock' a combo player at a maximum hand size, it can really slow them down. And if turn 2 Liliana is too slow, it seems turn 3 (?) Cranial effects would also be would also be too slow. The Cranial effects against Storm don't impress me. Unless you are playing against straight UB ANT with 1 Tendrils, the storm decks have alternative kill conditions plus Burning Wish (Cranial doesn't touch their sideboard). They have Empty the Warrens, Grapeshot, Tendrils (plus another one in the sideboard). Cranial just seems damn slow and if I'm playing a deck like High Tide and you turn 2 burning wish for a cranial, you better believe I'm going to dig like hell for a Force of Will on my next turn. I can't think of any deck slow enough and linear enough for Cranial to have a game-ending impact.

That's fine that we can top deck Titans, but its not going to stop combo from going off on turn 1-3. Liliana's slow and untargetted discard against combo is no better than a Raven's crime on turn 2 or 3, and Raven's Crime is certainly not keeping Show and Tell or Ad Naseum in control these days. She alone will not get you to top deck mode against combo decks because you'll be dead before she gets even 5 counters.

However, Liliana along with extra targeted discard spells (need more than just Cabal Therapy) might be good for helping those of us in combo metas survive games 2 and 3, since we can target win cons or enablers first (T1 Duress/Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy) and then have Liliana keep consistent pressure until we can finish the game.

I agree. Against a combo deck with a good draw, there is not much we can do, but there is not much any non-blue deck can do. Again, these comments do not mention the Emrakuls and Griselbrands of the world. Liliana serves two purposes - untargetable, constant discard and creature sacrifice. In the current environment, both abilities are relevant. If the environment shifts away from s-a-f-i-p and Lil's -2 is no longer as relevant, I will happily replace her with Hymn to Tourach, which is very good against creatureless combo strategies.

@Boogie,

Ramping with Dryad via GSZ isn't really an option. We don't keep 1 land hands like Mav and a GSZ @1 will get u the explorer you need instead. Dryad isn't bad in the GB version but it is certainly bad in the tricolored ones. It acts mostly as an emergency Therapy body but mostly its just a summoning sick nonbasic forest that dies to removal and Deed. I would definitely pack one if I intend to play with Recurring Nightmare though.

Qweerios - just wanted to say thanks for this. I've wondered the same thing myself (why Dryad Arbor didn't see play). Your answer makes a lot of sense.

Miracle is nearly impossible to beat without Planeswalkers.

Does Thragtusk help out in this match up? If the UW player is going to Terminus, at least we have a 3/3 in play. Admittedly, I have not played this match up, but it seems like GSZing for Thragtusk (preferably with a Phyrexian Tower open to prevent exile) would be a decent road to victory.

I noticed you're running Tsunami (over Choke). I understand the non-bo of Choke and Deed, however, how often are we Deeding above 2 in the UW match up? Batterskull, Vendilion Clique, O-Ring, Sword of Feast and Famine? It seems like Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine are the only targets we would want to hit at 3 or above. Therefore, it seems most Deeds would be for 2 in order to remove Counterbalance, Stoneforge Mystic, and Snapcaster Mage. Tsunami seems more susceptible to Spell Pierce, but I guess Choke is more susceptible to Disenchant. I'm curious on your thoughts on this.

For those experiencing difficulty with the UW match-up, has anyone run the Jund version of the deck? It seems the extra Pyroblasts may be helpful. However, it seems like what is really needed is an answer to Terminus. Thragtusk is a solution. Planeswalkers are good. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
W_W

Megadeus

07-30-2012, 08:11 PM

I'm running the Jund version, but I haven't gotten to test it yet. The burn spells make you a bit better against Jace. And i feel like it gives Me better match ups across the board, but does make me weaker to wasteland

Qweerios

07-30-2012, 09:23 PM

Water_Wizard

07-30-2012, 10:53 PM

I chose Tsunami over Choke because explorer extracts lands from an opponent. Once your opponent has a considerable amount of lands on the field, 1 Tsunami often leaves your opponent with too few lands in his deck for all the fetches. Tsunami is also better against High Tide because of their low land count (17-19 lands) and because they can operate without an untap step.

Miracle is difficult because they have a wide range of CMC on their spells for CB, they play a lot of Jaces, and all of the cards you want them to discard are part of the top 3 cards of their deck. There is no other way to beat them than to apply pressure, and with a slow control deck like ours we need cards like Elspeth and Garruk. Thragtusk isn't good enough, Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda are all better against Miracle.

Thank you for the Tsunami explanation. It makes sense and I will give it a test run.

Regarding the UW match up, Liliana still has her ultimate ability, which can and does add up. I agree regarding the Planeswalkers, I believe they are essential to this match up. However, the other creatures you list (Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda) all have hexproof / shroud, but I don't understand how this helps vs. Terminus. Thragtusk is going to leave behind a 3/3 after Terminus, plus he can be GSZ'd out again. Heck, even if they exile him, you are still getting a 3/3.

You prefer Garruk Relentless over Garruk Wildspeaker?

Greenpoe

07-30-2012, 11:44 PM

I intend on going back to straight GB tomorow and I would apreciate some feedback or ideas on a Living Wish package. Here is my expected list:

Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Tsunami

Thrun is experimental. I want to wish for Karakas and test him against Miracle.

Why not try a Persecutor in the SB? He's really quite strong in a lot of MU's, great against Delver, etc. Second, you should really, really have some un-counterable creature in the SB (probably Thrun, but maybe Vexing Shrusher or Gaea's Revenge?). Otherwise, blue players just let your Wish resolve and counter the creature (in general). Third, doesn't a playset of Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapies seem a bit much for discard? Consider dropping a Thoughtseize for another Garruk or another Wish. Just a thought.

Claymore

07-30-2012, 11:57 PM

Grave Titan fills the bomb slot well enough it looks like. Persecutor does bring up the good need for more anti-aerial tech, but I dont think he fits a pressing silver bullet need.

Extra discard is what helps the GB fight our bad match ups, not to mention the ones with the counter magic for the Living Wish.

Qweerios

07-31-2012, 01:28 AM

Valtrix

07-31-2012, 01:58 AM

I don't understand why you would use up most of your sideboard in order to play a 2-of in the maindeck. Surely 4x Green Sun's Zenith is enough creature tutor utility.

Planeswalkers are great, especially against the control decks. I almost am a fan of GBU to just play Jace because he's that good, but that's a reasonable strain on the manabase :P (I suppose a single Trygon Predator is not a bad Zenith target too.)

Megadeus

07-31-2012, 02:36 AM

I'll be trying out a one of Primal Hunter this Wednesday. Hopefully he does work, because he seems sweet, but his mana cost seems so prohibitive in a 3 color deck

Water_Wizard

07-31-2012, 05:23 AM

The only Garruk worth mentioning for this deck is Primal Hunter. His effects are too powerful if you can afford the time and cost to set him up.

Shroud is the most relevant feature of any creature against UW Miracle. They still pack StP + Snap so we have to force them into Terminus to keep anything on the board.

How firm do you feel about Tsunami? Why not run additional Planeswalkers? It seems like Planeswalkers may win you the game, while Tsunami is more about not losing it. Tsunami still leaves Plains, Karakas, Glacial Fortress, etc. behind. What are your thoughts on this?

Claymore

07-31-2012, 09:47 AM

Tsunami is a beast. I'll quote this from Arianhod since I asked a similar question last month:

Oh, I know which one's better, and the answer is Tsunami by a mile. Blue players are very aware of Choke, since Maverick's been pushing their ass in with it for the better part of a year now, and while it does hurt them, they can usually find ways to squirrel their way out of it (ie, Sword of Feast and Famine untapping all of their shit). Tsunami is so much better vs High Tide it's not even funny, and it is actually functionally a win condition vs a lot of blue decks....especially late in the game when they've got most of their mana-producing lands out of their deck already. Decks that run the 8x fetch 4x Waste 8x mana-producing lands type of mana base are especially weak to Tsunami, because they literally have no ability to do -anything- after a Tsunami lands, whereas if you have Choke out, they can usually find a way to Disenchant it or some other bs. Sword is an aforementioned problem, especially since that card is already good vs us. I'll be honest -- I also really like the psychological warfare effect that Tsunami has on an opponent. If Choke is out, it can actually make your opponent more alert as they frantically try to find a way out of it. Tsunami just makes them feel defeated as they sit there with maybe one or two permanents in play compared to your board state. It can often actually win games just from the demoralization factor alone. Additionally, Tsunami is very hard to counterbalance, which is sometimes relevant. Sure, Rector's hard to as well, but I don't like leaning on Rector too heavily because I'm always worried that my opponent will know her achilles heel....which like maybe 15% of legacy players ACTUALLY know, but I still worry about it. Tsunami's done a whole lot of work for me when the meta's right for it (which, being legacy, it frequently is). I'd definitely recommend trying it out before dismissing it out of hand.

Planeswalkers will have nice little Bitterblossom effects if you don't have a board state (which is usually how you are against UW Miracles, apparently), generally making low yet consistent on a late game board. They're certainly strong, but won't have a game shattering influence on the board.

Tsunami will make it impossible for them to win, especially considering how mana hungry UW Miracles can be.

Arianrhod

07-31-2012, 10:08 AM

Seems to me that Cranial Extraction (and its brother) should be beastly vs Miracles as well. Jace, Terminus, and Entreat are all solid targets. It's worth pointing out that all of these cards cost 4 (Rector, Tsunami, Cranial). This can serve as a passive deterrent to Jace, because they'll have to keep him floating around the top of their deck rather than casting him. Also, it's very much worth remembering Extirpate for the mandatory shuffle. If they're activating a draw off of Top, it doesn't really matter what random thing is in their graveyard -- make them get rid of it! It also strands them with a 1-drop on top for CB, if you're trying to resolve something. If we make it to the lategame and they don't have a CB=3 floating around, Nightmare's card advantage will absolutely wreck them. I mean, if you're really worried about Miracle Whip, you could also run some Explosives alongside Deed. It dodges CB like a champ (and/or can come down @0 before CB lock is established).

I agree as far as the planeswalkers are concerned. Elspeth and big Garruk are the two best for generating board state, although Elsepth only really becomes a clock with a dude already in play. Both of them still give the Miracle Whip player plenty of time to set up a lethal EoT ETA, and while Elspeth is decent at fighting Jace, I don't think that either is really amazing in the matchup.

Sigarda and Thragtusk are both where you want to be in the matchup. Thrun is still useless. Sigarda is bigger than an ETA token, can't be Swordsed or Jaced, and swings for huge chunks over the astonished head of Tiago. She can be Terminus'd, but if she's your only creature in play, so what. You can Zenith her out again, and if you force them to use one of their draw steps (or a Top trigger) for a 1-for-1, you're winning. 'Tusk is the same way, although he leaves a beater behind. It's worth remembering that if you're scared of Swords on your 'Tusk, leave your Phyrexian Tower open. Seems like most Miracle lists don't run Wasteland, so Tower should do a good job of protecting from Swords.

By the by - this weekend I had a combo player try to Surgical my Cranial Extractions again. If you aren't running the 1/1 split with Memoricide, I strongly recommend it. Combo players really, REALLY don't like that effect, and they -will- strive their utmost to get rid of it.

PollePotDK

07-31-2012, 10:30 AM

In addition to Cranial Extraction and Memoricide, which are beasts don't forget Sadistic Sacrement. In some match ups removing 3 (or 15) cards spells GG most of the time.

Nobody responded later, maybe because it was a stupid question I don't know, but should Griselbrand get any love in this deck?

/PollePotDK

Arianrhod

07-31-2012, 10:55 AM

Sorry -- I didn't notice it. The issue with Sad Sac is the triple black mana cost. While it packs much more of a punch lategame, Cranial can do the same thing looped sufficiently with Eternal Witness, and is so, so much easier to cast in the early turns. Being able to take different cards is good and all, but you can only take 3 with SadSac, which is a problem. This isn't Vintage, where taking their Time Vault, Yawg Will, and Tinker Robot is pretty sweet. If you SadSac High Tide, they still have a Time Spiral left. Sneak still has a Sneak. Etc. There's too many 4-ofs in legacy for SadSac to work well IMO.

Griselbrand is seeing some play in the 4cc Gifts version I've been working on -- Gifts-> Rites + GriselB is pretty sweet. That version is still really rough, though. As for other versions....it's a little tricky to hardcast, although it can obviously be done. BBBB is rough, not the fact that it costs 8. The other problem is that the meta is kind of prepared for him at the moment, which is why he's nice in the Gifts version with Rites....you can always grab Sun Titan or some other obnoxious fatty instead, if your opponent has Karakas. As it stands, Karakas is basically dead vs us (can't target Sigarda). No reason to make it live, when it's all over the place right now. I think that if you want a big fat 7+ black creature, Rune-Scarred Demon is probably everything you want but better.

Claymore

07-31-2012, 11:06 AM

I've thought of throwing Sac in the sideboard as a means for hurting Progentitus decks. The NO/Prog deck told me after I Cranialed for Progenitus that he thought about siding out Prog for Terastodon...but I guess the correct play was to Cranial for Natural Order anyway. Otherwise I agree on the BBB and 3 vs 4 ordeal. It might be better in a GB version that capitalizes on mana ramp (Culling the Weak!) to get crazy mana early and cripple any deck out there.

I've tried Griselbrand in Rector but his high cost and BBBB are hard to come by even for us, and games where I swapped him directly for Grave Titan I would inevitably draw Griselbrand with 6 mana open. Again, GB for massive mana could probably use him, but the deck is by and large much different than the typical Nic Fit deck slung around these parts.

Good point on the 1/1 split, I never really understood why you did that, haha.

Arianrhod

07-31-2012, 11:47 AM

PollePotDK

07-31-2012, 11:51 AM

Maybe its just in my meta it makes sense - vs ANT/TES, Micracle or Enchantress it works wonders and triple black has never been a problem. I also run 2 Phyrexian Towers because the ramp it gives is insane.

Being able to take out Key spells, thats 1-2 offs wincons/lock pieces makes sense to me.

I agree with you ón Griselbrand.

/PollePotDK

Amazingxkcd

07-31-2012, 12:29 PM

Alright folks, I've got something pretty sweet for you. I uploaded what I've got complete of the Nic Fit Complete Primer to pastebin. It's unfinished, but I figured that rather than make you all wait another month while I work on it, I'd let you guys see where it's at.

Without further ado:

http://pastebin.com/vnuGCS3S

Enjoy!

Nice update! I would prefer that you put the deck archtypes first and their explanations , then delve into determining what cards are good and why.

Claymore

07-31-2012, 01:06 PM

Love that you start it off with the Fit Rant. Looks great!

After a brief going over the beginning (at work, sadly) you reminded me that New Frontiers exists...might have to see if its applicable to anything I have brewing.

Water_Wizard

07-31-2012, 05:49 PM

Kevin,
Your primer was really, really good. I read through the whole thing and I appreciate you releasing it before you finished the lower sections. It does a great job tracking the evolution of the deck and discussing the strengths and weaknesses of certain variations of the deck, including the benefits/drawbacks of the inclusions of certain cards. A big thank you!
What does everyone think of running Sarkhan Vol or Sarkhan the Mad in the Jund version as a 5th or 6th planeswalker? Assuming 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, Primal Hunter (probably 3 PWs main and another 2 in the board). I've considered running Sarkhan Vol in the main. The haste ability is relevant, especially off of a GSZ. The creature steal ability is also relevant and can throw off blocking math in a creature mirror (and can be really good with P. Tower or Cabal Therapy), and the -6 seems highly relevant vs. control decks.
Additionally, Sarkhan the Mad seemed good with Top. His 0 ability appears to be a free card each turn (assuming land), or at worst, you flip your top and draw it for -1. StM's -2 could be useful vs. fatties, similar to Liliana's ability, although not as good. However, the -2 could also be used on your own creatures (say, saccing a Veteran Explorer for a 5/5 dragon). Finally, with Broodmate Dragon, the -4 ability is 8 to the dome, which is a nice alternative kill. I'm not a huge fan of StM, because he can't grow, but I guess that's why he's Mad.
After reading Qweerios post about Planeswalkers being necessary in the UW matchup, I got a little scarred and decided I needed to add some Planeswalkers (besides Liliana) to my list.

Alexeezay

08-01-2012, 06:45 AM

Here's my latest Jund build:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Edict

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bonfire of the Damned (http://magiccards.info/query?q=bonfire+of+the+damned&v=card&s=cname)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Broodmate Dragon

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

SB:
4 REB/Pyroblast
4 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Memoricide
2 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm

Should I cut the 4th GSZ for Scavenging Ooze? Unfortunately I don't have Thragtusk available so far, that card is pretty good from what I've heard.
Is Liliana of the Veil better than the 1-of Diabolic Edict? I have been a bit disappointed by Liliana recently...

wortwelt

08-01-2012, 07:27 AM

Good to see a report on an actual BUG Fit list (I call it BUG Fit when it packs Jace). After seeing your list and reading your report, I think more of your performance had to do with your deck than your illness than you think. I have been entirely dedicated to the blue splash for the past weeks and it really wreaks havoc in the mid/late game. However, it concedes the early game and you pretty much cross your fingers that your opponent doesn't combo or aggro-explode in your face. It is very easy to play a threat and follow up with a Stifle/Waste + Daze/Pierce/Snare/FoW and pretty much lock us out of the game in 2-3 turns. Nic Fit is already a strong deck against any form of aggro (fast or slow), and control decks. Its traditional nemesis is combo decks. This alone is what makes it a meta predator in a sea of RUG/Maverick. When you want to include a 3rd color to that delicate balance, you have to be careful as to what you are giving up and what you are taking away.

Here are a couple of things I am very adamant about concerning BUG lists:

Top > Brainstorm,

We don't play FoW MD, we can't dig for instant answers, and we can't abuse tempo in any aggressive fashion. Drawing 3 and shuffling away your 2 worst cards is great, but it rarely allows you to put a lock on the game, then what? Sometimes you don't even have shuffling effects and it becomes considerably worst. Top allows you to continuously sculpt your top 3 cards until you find what you desire. It is impervious to Deed and gains value with every passing turn. It will allow you to transform every single extra mana and shuffling effects into Portent.

Gifts > FoF,

This one is very simple, what is the purpose of that card? To produce insurmountable card advantage and bury your opponent in threats/disruption/answers the following turns. Gifts is a thousand times more flexible because it allows you to tutor up 4 cards in your deck over the next 2-3 turns. The traditional Gift pile of 2X Witness effects +2 wanted cards is rarely the go-to pile and I don't recommend it. However, between the Volrath Tower combo, a couple Titans, Witness, Loam, and a few utility lands, there is a lot of GY interactions that will corner your opponent in a matter of seconds. Gift piles offer emergency answers and inevitability while FoF may offer you either, but mostly, it allows you to durdle with your deck a bit longer until you finally achieve what you want. Gifts isn't something you have to look at in a vacuum, there are cards in play, in your hand, and in your GY prior to your first Gifts, and that's what makes it a monster in a deck with so many engines.

Other comments on cards:

Stryx is a waste of time. I'd rather spent my first turns ramping and disrupting my opponent than a cantriping 1/1 Fly/DT body. Stryx has value written all over it, but it is very narrow and of poor quality in a deck with such high aspirations. I find Viridian Emissary just as good if not better. Besides, play your full playset of GSZ before even considering Stryx, the latter pales in comparison to the prior.

Jace is powerful because he is the ultimate Phyrexian Arena for us. Fatesealing into victory isn't much of an option because we have other means of winning that offer more inevitability, card advantage, and that will simply finish our opponent faster. Fatesealing into victory is horribly slow when you can't keep your opponent in check with counterspells. There is a lot of good to be said about Jace but I don't feel like I can afford the mana cost and deck space at the moment.

Qweerios,
thank you for your ardent criticism, which has a lot of merit.

Coming from playing BUG Control, the first iteration of the blue list by Arianrhod drew me to Nic Fit because it seemed to solve a lot of problems I had with BUG, especially the dreaded situations in which you had a full grip but not the mana to cast stuff / blow stuff up with deed because you wastelanded your opponent and didn't find a Loam. Hence, I thought the Explorer/Therapy engine would really help getting faster to a point at which I would be able to cast my answers (especially around Daze and Spell Pierce).

Arianrhod pretty much nailed it when he said that I am actually looking to rework BUG Control using the Explorer/Therapy engine, and that's what I'm planning on doing. I don't know whether that's a viable route, but I am willing to find out. I feel that your deck wants to be doing something different from my deck (and that my idea is way more questionable, but I'm a little stubborn)
The other thing is, that traditional BUG Control does an awful lot of 1 on 1 trading until it can control the game. With Explorer/Therapy, Deed, Strix, Witness, a lot of plays are 2 for 1s. Building a BUG Control list on the foundations of Nic Fit looks pretty appealing to me.

I will test a few things next week and report on the results, since I still think that the core of the deck is Nic Fit. Since I want to be able to win with Jace, I need counters maindeck. I also want Vendilion Clique for a little more beats and midgame Therapies. I also agree on 4 Brianstorm possibly being too much. I may try a split.

RE: Primer. What a monster of a primer. Awesome work. Thank you, Arianrhod.

Arianrhod

08-01-2012, 08:41 AM

And it isn't even done yet =) Thanks all.

@Wortwelt -- I really like the idea of Clique alongside Therapy. Seems pretty hot midgame. I will also caution you, though -- being -able- to win with Jace is fine, but in the Nic Fit style of deck, he's often better served as a Brainstorm-bot, because your other cards tend to win faster. If time is an issue as you develop and test, keep that in mind.

@Alexeezay -- I like the Bonfires. I have a feeling you're going to side them out a lot, but they're still pretty nifty. Also, imagine the look on your opponent's (and everyone around you) face when you Top a Bonfire after your opponent Tops an Entreat. D'oh!

Edict is better than Liliana if you're -strictly- looking for a sacrifice card, because you can regrow it with Witness without having to eat a card to Lily in the process. However, Lily only has to nom once to be a second Edict. I kind of think she wins the fight against Edict, honestly.

I feel like if I were to cut anything for the Ooze, it would be Wickerbough. You have Pulse and Deed for artifact and enchantment concerns....I don't think you need a dude that kills those things too.

@W_W -- you don't want either Sarkhan if you're specifically worried about Miracle Whip. Vol is better vs like Show and Tell I guess? To hilarious effect. The Mad seems good vs Stoneblade as a functional draw engine. Even in those matchups, however, I'm not sure that you can't just do better. Pretty sure Primal Hunter is just the best there is for vs Stoneblade and Miracles....+1 to make a 3/3 generates board presence really fast, and if they've got you out-attritioned, you can draw a bunch of cards off of him and get gas back.

Water_Wizard

08-01-2012, 04:34 PM

And it isn't even done yet =) Thanks all.

@W_W -- you don't want either Sarkhan if you're specifically worried about Miracle Whip. Vol is better vs like Show and Tell I guess? To hilarious effect. The Mad seems good vs Stoneblade as a functional draw engine. Even in those matchups, however, I'm not sure that you can't just do better. Pretty sure Primal Hunter is just the best there is for vs Stoneblade and Miracles....+1 to make a 3/3 generates board presence really fast, and if they've got you out-attritioned, you can draw a bunch of cards off of him and get gas back.

Thanks, and makes sense. I'm going to try a few different configurations this weekend. I also considered Karn for that slot. The 7 colorless mana doesn't seem too prohibitive and Karn is nice because it provides colorless removal, a 'discard' effect, and it has the ability to restart the game (although I've always found after I got Karn at high enough loyalty to restart the game, the +4's usually rendered a game reset unnecessary).

Randomly, I've been playing against aggro-creature decks online (Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins) and I haven't dropped a game (6-0, 3-0). Deed and 2 Damnations from the board just prove too powerful.

Admittedly, I've not been able to test the combo match or control match.

Against the combo match, I've been debating the number of non-Therapy discard effects to run in the main/board. I was running 4 Lightning Bolts / 2 Thoughtseize main, but I recently switched to 3 Lightning Bolts / 3 Thoughtseize, based mainly our of fear for combo match ups. I also run the 4th Thoughtseize in the board.

Qweerios comments scarred me into running additional Planeswalkers. I was running 3 Liliana. Now I'm between 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, and the possibility of 1 Sarkhan or Karn (3 main / 2 board). I don't like Tsunami in the board, so I'm considering replacing those slots with additional Planeswalker. Admittedly, Tsunami is better than Choke. However, it falls victim to the same anti-tech run by UW decks. In order to beat Choke, UW decks are running Glacial Fortress and other non-island lands. Because we don't run Wasteland, Glacial Fortress is good. I would rather draw a Planeswalker and have a proactive chance at victory vs. drawing a Tsunami and having a reactive chance at not losing.

Water_Wizard

08-01-2012, 05:16 PM

Hello fellow Nic-Fitters,
I have a simple, and somewhat noobish, question for discussion.
How proper is it to cut some number of Cabal Therapies games 2/3 vs. Aggro decks or creature-based decks like Maverick? I realize the synergy between Therapy and Veteran Explorer, however, when your opponent's deck is based around bashing you for 20 with creature attacks, we can usually chump with Explorer to trigger his effect. Additionally, vs. decks like Affinity, they are unlikely to be holding any cards in their hands.
Assuming we win game 1, how appropriate is it to remove 2 Cabal Therapies on the draw vs. Affinity, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Burn, or Maverick, assuming we will add them back in on the play?
In a nutshell, is it ever proper to board out some number of Cabal Therapy, even if you will board them back in when you are on the play? Or, are a full playset of Cabal Therapie and Veteran Explorers so essential to the deck that they are never touched? (However, Veteran Explorers come out vs. certain decks like High Tide - what other decks to Veteran Explorers come out against? Do we board out Veteran vs. the Mirror?)

blescot

08-01-2012, 05:47 PM

I nearly always keep my full Cabal Therapy package game 2 against aggro decks. For two main reasons :
1. I don't think I have cards that improve my matchup against aggro decks in my sideboard (because Nic Fit naturally IS an aggro creature-based deck killer). The only exceptions are the Red Elemental Blasts that I side in against Merfolk in the red version of Nic Fit.
2. A Cabal Therapy T1 is always a great move game 2 : you already know your opponent's main threats. And even if you don't hit, you get information, and the Cabal in the graveyard is of course never a dead card. And to be honest, I don't always have the chance to have a Veteran Explorer or a Top in my opening hand, so it's sometimes my only T1 spell :)

Megadeus

08-02-2012, 01:59 AM

Well I did not do well at all tonight with Jund Fit... I feel like part was me just playing poorly, and part me drawing horribly. Here's a small recap, but I'm on my phone so it may be a bit brief.

G1: Maverick.

I feel like I may have punted. This seems to be almost unlosa or but I managed to strike out. I will say that the guy who played it (a guy I drove with) is good and almost always top 4's, but I just never drew deed to blow him out.

Round 2: Burn

I knew he was on burn, and my T1 explorer into T2 tower sacrifice for a Green Sun'd Huntmaster stabilized nicely. G2 came down to him not top decking fireblast with me at 4 but I got him.

G3: Esper Stoneblade

This game made me sick. I make all of these huge changes to my SB to beat control and still lose... G1 I had 5 lands with2 Grave Titans, and my Dragon Broodmate in hand.... Ugh. I actuall won G2 on the back of infinite Discard spells, but G3 saw me drawing all of my 6 drops again. :( Jace wasn't actually too much of a problem, I just never got to do much....

G4: High Tide against my roomate.

We played for fun, I didn't Even waste time Sideboarding after narrowly losing G1.

I'll probably be trying out Punishing Fire build of some kind next Wednesday. I got my third grove so yeah... All in all, I was impressed with Liliana as always, huntmaster was a lot better when I have a good kana base for him, and Grave Titan successfully pissed me off by drawing him at bad times!

Arianrhod

08-02-2012, 08:42 AM

I try to only run 2 6-drops because of that. I had a third in my Rector build for a while (Yosei), and I just got aggravated because I drew 6's too much when I wasn't ready for them. Yosei's weaker than Kokusho or Sun Titan, so he sadly got cut. The blue version is the exception, because it can brainstorm back excess high costs and then shuffle them away. I wouldn't recommend any non-blue version run more than 2.

RE Cabal Therapy: definitely don't side these out. You can always get value out of them. At GP Atlanta I nailed a Maverick player who'd kept a -TRIPLE- Swords hand in g2. I'd named KotR as usual, and immediately flashed back Therapy for the blowout. People are stupid, and Therapy can punish them for that severely. Also, there will be times when that will be your only method of putting a creature in the yard to set up Nightmare loops. It does happen sometimes.

I usually take out 2 Explorers when I sideboard any out, and it's usually vs the mirror, Stoneblade, Miracles, and High Tide. All 4 stay in vs Merfolk, Gobs, Elves, Deadguy, and so on. Extra copies are just dead in the mirror, Stoneblade can power out better planeswalkers than we can, Miracles is ferociously mana hungry (as much as we are, actually), and High Tide wins when it has 4 lands. Note that if you're running Tsunami, this changes a bit -- you actually want to bait those decks into running out all of their islands sometimes so you can blow them up.

wortwelt

08-02-2012, 10:46 AM

I'd never side Therapies out. They always get better G2, and you rarely find a hand that has nothing to discard (um, Dredge, possibly?)

Especially if you are playing Surgicals or Extirpates, Therapies become crucial.

Star|Scream

08-02-2012, 10:52 AM

Arian: Is there any other way for me to get the primer? I can't access that site from this computer. Possible to email it to me directly?

Thanks!

Arianrhod

08-02-2012, 11:48 AM

Starscream -- I can do that. Just PM me the email address you want me to send it to. I'll try to remember to send it to you once it's finished, too.

Therapy is still amazing against Dredge. LED and Breakthrough are both huge names, and postboard you can call Chain of Vapor or Nature's Claim to make your Deeds better, or Firestorm if you're on beatdown.

Qweerios

08-02-2012, 01:29 PM

I often side out Therapies. It really depends on your SB. However, I wouldn't side them out against any deck packing StP, so that includes Maverick. They are fine to side out vs. RUG/BUG Delver, Goblins, Merfolks, and sometimes DnT (I wouldn't).

snarfoogle

08-02-2012, 06:21 PM

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nicotine-fit/

I put this deck together recently, only played 3 rounds with it so far though. The general consensus in this thread is that Thragtusk is the real deal?

Water_Wizard

08-02-2012, 06:50 PM

Well I did not do well at all tonight with Jund Fit... I feel like part was me just playing poorly, and part me drawing horribly.
So funny, I just got on to make a similar post.

Horrible, horrible matches last night on MTGO. 1-5, losing 3 times to Elves.

Here's my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronhold
// 22 Lands

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavening Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon
// 13 Creatures

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
// 25 Sorceries, Instants, Planeswalkers, and Enchantments

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
1 Scavenging Ooze

For those of you that don't know how MTGO work, each player has his/her own clock with 25 minutes. It's like a chess match where only the active player's clock is running at one time.

First match is vs. UR Standstill Control with SCM, Mishra's Factories, Standstills, Faerie Conclave, Lightning Bolt, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Counterspell, Force of Will, Wasteland, Crucible of Worlds, Brainstorm, and Jace.

He wins game 1 off of partial Wastelock with Crucible. I end up holding a Hermit looking for my 5th land. By the time I find it, he has counterspell. I blind Therapy turn 1 for Stifle and miss, seeing 2 SCM, FOW, and Standstill. He FOWs my Scavenging Ooze, exiling SCM, plays Standstill, which I break, and proceeds to cast Mishra's Factory, Crucible, Snapcaster Mage for value, and Wasteland. I die to 2/2 beats.

Game 2 I get pretty lucky and top deck a Maelstrom Pulse to eliminate 3 SCMs while I'm at 7 life. I land a Huntmaster and go the distance.

Game 3 I run out of time. Bummer. I also make some questionable plays while my clock is at 1:30, but I feel so pressured for time that I'm not thinking clearly. I have a Deed in play with 2 mana open. He has 4 cards in hand from a Standstill and I think he Brainstormed, so he has pretty good card selection. We're both around 10 life. I have a Huntmaster and token in play. He has 2 SCM and activates 2 Factories and a Faerie Conclave, leaving 1 mana open. I have 2 mana open for my Deed. He's clearly broadcasting Stifle. I have a Pyroblast in my graveyard and 5 mana total. I go ahead and take his bait and attempt to Deed for 2 and he predictably Stifles. Next turn I draw a GSZ. I could have GSZ'd for Eternal, pulling back Pyroblast for Stifle protection, but this assumes he doesn't have another Counterspell. In any case, I time out.

Match 2 I play against Terminus.
Game 1 is very long. He ends up hitting 3 Terminus and 2 EtA. At one point, he EtA's on my end step, making 4 Angels. I'm at 18 life and he swings for 16. The next turn, I cast Deed and pop for 0, killing the tokens. I tap out to cast Huntmaster, going to 4. I consider my options and decided to pop Deed for 0 while he's tapped out with 0 cards in hand. I know UW Terminus does not run Stifle and I should probably wait until his attack phase, but I pop on my turn out of an abundance of caution and to keep my 2/2 Wolf token in play, increasing my clock and somewhat negating STP. He has a 2nd EtA floating on top (doesn't even have to spin top for it) and instantly makes another 4 tokens. I feel like a lot of UW decks run 1 EtA, so I wasn't expecting this. I realize he would have just pushed EtA down further in his deck had I saved Deed for his attack phase, but this still caused me to mentally chastise myself. I Top and find a Pulse for his new Tokens, but he is able to find his 3rd Terminus for my Huntmaster. With around 10 minutes left on my clock and 12 minutes on his, I concede game 1 because he has Counter-top lock, which just counterspelled the SDT I flipped for Pluse and he has Jace and SCM on board.

Game 2 I run out of time, again.

Matches 3-6 were against Elves. I played 2 different players, going 1-1 against the first and 0-2 against the 2nd. I was very disappointed by these results. Especially after winning my first match 2-0, I figured this deck as a sure-win vs. Elves. However, this deck can just be too slow. For example, for Deed to 'work' we need 3 mana to cast and 1-2 mana to activate it. Additionally, Elves has an amazing ability to bounce back. I would Deed and wipe 4 creatures off his board, only to have his board completely rebuilt the next turn. The lack of Wasteland hurts in this match-up (not being able to hit Cradles).

The first 2 matches I played were against a mono-green budget version of Elves that ran all Forests (no fetches), Summoner's Pact over GSZ, and Elvish Archdruid plus Emrakul. He over-extended into a Deed game 1 and a Damnnation game 2 and he also didn't have any lightning quick draws. Match 2 went to 3 games. In the third game, he had 3 creatures on board (one of them being a Heritage Druid), 3 mana in pool, and active Glimpse and I believe 2 or 3 cards in hand. I had a Deed in hand with 4 mana in play (and a 5th in hand to wipe his board on my next turn). He ends up comboing off that turn, finding Emrakul and taking an extra turn. I honestly thought he was going to die to Pact triggers because he didn't have enough mana to pay GGGG4 his following turn after I nuked his board. I'm not sure what he drew and I probably should have played Deed on my turn to have the option of blowing up Deed @ 1, although he had some 2 casters I wouldn't have been able to hit.

Matches 5-6 were versus Chris Andersen's / Caleb Durward's version of Elves running white, Mirror Entity, and Crop Rotation. I think both matches were 2-1 in his favor, but I topped pretty poorly and also had some heartbreaking situations where I would discard a Glimpse only to have him draw one the next turn. Additionally, he mulled to 5 and went off turn 3 one of the matches, which is rough.

My final match was vs. Doomsday and I won. He won game 1 going off on his 2nd turn with the play. Not much I can do there. Game 2 my Mindbreak Trap saved me. He Duressed me twice, including once the turn before he tried to go off. I drew Mindbreak Trap for my turn. He went Dark Ritual -> Burning Wish - > Doomsday (with Top on board and mana floating and 1 card in hand). I MBT'd the Doomsday, although I probably should have let Doomsday resolve so he would have lost half of his life. As it stood, he was at 8 and I had a Huntmaster plus token in play, so he would have been at 2 after my turn (assuming I didn't cast anything and Huntmaster flipped) with 1 card in hand, so he just conceded. In retrospect, the correct play would have been to allow Doomsday to resolve, he builds his pile and then presumably goes for Tendrils, to which I cast MBT to exile all copies. However, I wasn't sure if he was running some top secret tech that would allow him to Silence or Duress me mid Doomsday-pile, so I played it safe and counterspelled the Doomsday.

Game 3 is a doozy, with him again on the play. Turn 1, he Duresses me taking Pyroblast. I kept a hand with 4 lands, Veteran Explorer, Eternal Witness, and Pyroblast, hoping for a slow game and to throw him off by stopping some of his cantrips and keeping him off land (his deck only runs 14 lands, I think). I draw for the turn, I believe a land and cast Veteran Explorer. He plays a land and possibly a Gitaxian Probe. I play a few lands, including a Phyrexian Tower, and he sculpts his hand. Eventually, he Burning Wishes into Doomsday and passes the turn with 1 card in hand, 1 Doomsday in his graveyard, 5 cards in his deck, and 2 lands in play. I have a Pyroblast in my graveyard, a Veteran Explorer in play, and an Eternal Witness, Extirpate, and some lands in my hand. He's at 9 life. On my turn, I attack with Veteran, dropping him to 8. On my 2nd main, I sac Veteran to Tower, adding BB and 2 lands into play. I cast Eternal Witness, returning Pyroblast to my hand. Unfortunately, my only basic Mountain is in my hand, so I actually don't have a red source to cast Pyroblast, which was a mistake on my part. I thought it would be good to have Pyroblast to stop Ideas Unbound or Gitaxian Probe. However, it would have been much wiser to Extirpate his Doomsday in order to force him to suffle his deck. I then could have re-bought Extirpate with Eternal Witness. He draws for his turn and casts Shelldock Isle, presumably hideawaying Emrakul. At this point, he as 3 cards in his deck, 1 in hand, and 1 in his graveyard (Doomsday). I draw for my turn and I see a Thoughtseize. I Thoughtseize him, seeing Lion's Eye Diamond. I attack, putting him at 6. On his turn, I Extirpate Lion's Eye Diamond on his draw step, seeing he drew an Island. However, the remaining two cards in his deck were Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish. So, I Extirpate both Lion's Eye Diamonds, leaving 1 Burning Wish in his deck. He activates Shelldock, 'casting' Emrakul, which triggers the extra turn. He draws Burning Wish for his turn, leaving 0 cards in his deck, swings for 15, nuking my board, and leaving me at 3 life (I was at 18 due to the Thoughtseize). He proceeds to Burning Wish for Gitaxian Probe to put himself at 4 life and lost due to lack of cards left in his library (he would have lost the next turn from not being able to draw for turn).

The correct play for me here would have been to Extirpate his Doomsday on my turn after he made the Doomsday pile in order to cause him to shuffle, giving him a 20% chance of drawing Shelldock and winning the game.

Anyhow, some thoughts.

UW - this match-up sucks! Well, actually it doesn't suck, I just think we are attacking it incorrectly.

1. We have to stop Top. I know it helps us too, but it helps them so much more. I was considering Burning-Tree Shaman, but he seems like an STP-rod. However, could you imagine if every Top and Jace cost them 1 life and every fetch costs them 2 life? Burning-Tree would wreck them. Additionally, I've considered Pithing Needle, on Top, although they run Disenchant (I assume they bring it in for Choke) and Needle isn't good with Deed.

2. Liliana isn't that good here. As Qweerios mentioned, Liliana doesn't have that much of an effect, because they can play off of the top of their deck. The times I was making them discard, it was usually land, which they had placed into their hands after flipping top.

3. How does Extirpate work with Miracle triggers? Assume there is a Terminus in their graveyard, they draw Terminus, placing the Miracle trigger on the stack. If we Extirpate here, does that remove the Terminus from their hand?

4. Tsunami may be the answer. After blowing it off on first blush, it does provide an interesting out. Most UW players will be careless with their land once they figure out we don't run Wasteland. They will bring out all of their Tundras and happily fetch their basics. Traditional lines of attack don't work that well against UW (creatures / attrition), so expanding our threats seems like the best answer. Qweerios is right on - Tsunami and Planeswalkers seem like the way to go (although probably not Liliana because they can play off the top of their libraries).

5. Counterbalance - I am surprise to see UW leaving Counterbalance in against us. Our casting costs are so varied that I can't see Counterbalance being that effective. Admittedly, it did stop my SDT from entering play, but that was after Turn 20.

Elves - this match up is so frustrating. Even with the Bolts and discard, our deck just seemed too slow. I think a turn 3 answer is needed. Perhaps Firespout or Pyroclasm. I wouldn't dare run Perish, because it kills all of our guys, too. The GBW version seems to have a great answer in the 'all of your opponent's creatures get -1/-1 enchantment'. However, Damnation and Deed just seemed too slow.
The additional lands we give Elves off of Explorer are not that big of a deal. The Durward version only runs 3 basics, so half the time they don't have any to fetch. I'm frustrated because it seems like our deck should be able to beat this match-up.

Cabal Therapy seems very necessary in this deck. The games with early Veteran Explorers and Cabal Therapies run so much more smoothly. Again, I think Qweerios was spot on with the Innocent Bloods, not because the cards are stellar by themselves, but rather because they act as an additional sacrifice outlet for Veteran Explorer. I'm considering swapping the two maindeck Thoughtseizes for two Innocent Bloods.

I may try to remove the Mindbreak Traps from my board in order to add 2 Firespout and 2 Tsunami.

I feel I should discuss my sideboarding decisions a little bit.

vs. UW I was -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Thoughtseize, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Extirpate

vs. Elves I was -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Garruk, Primal Hunter, +2 Damnation, +1 Scavenging Ooze However, in later games, I was leaving in 1 Thoughtseize over a Liliana. Lilana can be very good in this match up when Elves stalls because it basically gives you a 'sacrifice a creature every other turn.' However, it proved very underwhelming because Elves has so many creatures that they can pick the one they really don't care about. Thoughtseize becomes very important to discard early Glimpses and Wirewood Symbiotes.

Regarding Cabal Therapies, I was originally naming 'Glimpse of Nature' per Arian's list. Overall, I agree with this theory, but I kept missing. Additionally, Glimpse usually isn't going to be cast until turn 3, so it can be grabbed on the flashback. I started naming 'Fyndhorn Elves' or 'Lanowar Elves' on the play in an attempt to stop their early mana production. Additionally, I think naming Wirewood Symbiote may even be a better option because it makes all of our removal that much better. Elvish Visonary is also a fine target, although secondary to Wirewood.

The lack of Wasteland in this deck really irks me. Legacy is such a Wasteland-centric format and for a control-esque deck not to run Wasteland really allows our opponents to develop and cast their entire hands. Because we don't run any resource denial (we are actually giving people resources with Veteran Explorer), we rely entirely on attrition to combat our opponent's resources. I noticed Qweerios running 1 Wasteland with Life from the Loam for Gifts piles. Maybe I'm looking for Aggro Loam. I don't think there is a way to combine Wasteland in Nic Fit (maybe in a Living Wish) version, but there were quite a few times when I really would have loved a Wasteland - to stop Gaea's Cradle vs. Elves and to nuke Shelldock Isle vs. Doomsday. The problem with no Wastelands is that once our opponent's figure that out, they are off to the races to grab their premium lands and to play their hands with excellent mana fixing. Most of the other non-Wasteland decks are focused combo decks that rely on being quick enough to beat an opponent before the opponent can develop his/her mana resources.

My deck seems really solid vs. Merfolk and Storm, but perhaps at the cost of losing to certain other match ups. Perhaps it's worth trying to even out the main and board to better combat Elves and the control match-up.

I'm thinking maybe -2 Thoughtseize in the main + 2 Innocent Blood. - 2 Damnation, + 2 Firespout in the sideboard, possibly adding a Tsunami for Pyroblast or a Mindbreak Trap.

Water_Wizard

08-02-2012, 06:52 PM

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nicotine-fit/

I put this deck together recently, only played 3 rounds with it so far though. The general consensus in this thread is that Thragtusk is the real deal?

Yeah, Thragtusk is good. +5 life is good. Big body blocker. Plus he 'survives' Terminus and all other removal by leaving a 3/3 behind.

I can't view your list because they have that site blocked at work, but I'll check it out when I get home.

Megadeus

08-02-2012, 10:59 PM

Ever consider running engineered plague? Hurts elves, goblins, and merfolk a bit. Also naming Human be Maverick isn't too bad.

Water_Wizard

08-02-2012, 11:41 PM

Ever consider running engineered plague? Hurts elves, goblins, and merfolk a bit. Also naming Human be Maverick isn't too bad.

Considered, but it's kind of a non-bo with Pernicious Deed.

Also, in order to be effective, you really need to run 3 or 4 (in order to find them and to have at least 2 in play vs. 'Folk and Goblins), so it takes up a lot of sideboard slots.

Damnation or Firespout is more of a catch-all, too, as Firespout devours Mongooses, Insecticle Aberrations, Constructs, most of Maverick, and a host of other creatures.

As opposed to Engineered Plague, I think it's best to switch to the BWG version and run 'Curse of Souls Betrayal' or what ever that BB3 Enchantment is that gives all of your opponent's creatures -1/-1.

from Cairo

08-03-2012, 01:15 AM

As opposed to Engineered Plague, I think it's best to switch to the BWG version and run 'Curse of Souls Betrayal' or what ever that BB3 Enchantment is that gives all of your opponent's creatures -1/-1.

Yea I think Curse of Death's Hold would be a better call than Engineered Plague even in the BUG and Jund lists.

Personally I'm just sporting some more spot removal (Ghastly Demise #2, Go for the Throat, Fleshbag Merauder) in the side and figure the late game can be managed via Pernicious Deed with Eternal Witness recursion.

Alexeezay

08-03-2012, 06:48 AM

oh btw Water_Wizard. Why did you board out Thoughtseize against UW? also Lightning Bolt isnt that bad against Jace. hmm. Why did you leave the Deeds in? Angel tokens?
I don't think the Elves matchup is THAT bad. Awkward draws is just the nature of the deck, where you don't draw the right cards etc. ... elves is a matchup where you need a fast therapy for glimpse,bolt for symbiote/nettel/heritage and deed to ruin their day
that's why I've gone up to 4 SDT's

Barook

08-03-2012, 06:50 AM

Any thoughts about the new Jarad?

While the P/T is still unknown (which makes or breaks him) and the mana cost is restrictive (but GSZable), his effect sure is interesting:

Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord :b::b::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Elf Zombie
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord gets +1/+1 for each creature card in your graveyard.
:b::g:, sacrifice another creature you control: Each opponent loses life equal to the power of the sacrificed creature.
?/?

bruizar

08-03-2012, 07:40 AM

I really think red is the wrong splash color to be honest.

There are a couple of things to take into account:

Decks with Pernicious Deed, benefit from Planeswalkers
Liliana of the Veil is one of the best planeswalkers because it is a multifunctional roleplayer against combo, control and aggro.

Veteran Explorer aims to accelerate to the late game
Green Sun's Zenith aims to increase the reliability of Veteran Explorer
You need outlets for Veteran Explorer

Blue and white are very strong splash colors, but they increase the number of colors to 4.
Blue gives Gitaxian Probe, Intuition and Brainstorm. Intuition and Gitaxian Probe are the best for this archetype.

White gives you Sun Titan (Liliana and Deed recursion) and reanimation of cards like Iona, and Elesh-Norn through Unburial Rites on turn 3 through a counterwall. (Turn 1 Therapy, Turn 2 Explorer + flashback Therapy + Intuition for Unburial Rites, Reanimation Target and Gigapede.)

Red gives... Not much more than Huntmaster of the Fells, Broodmate Dragon and Lightning Bolt... Huntmaster can be replaced for Kitchen Finks, Thragtusk or Selkie Hedgemage. Broodmate Dragon is weaker than the reanimation plan, and lightning bolt is nothing more but spot removal in a splash color.

This deck should be more focused on becoming a Solar Flare / Explorer Hybrid than a deck with big butts who rely on Explorer to resolve. If that is what you want to do, Maverick is a more solid choice.

As an aside, our testing group brought this deck to MWS about half a year before the Amsterdam GP which was during that time that the Nic Fit archetype was coined. It was obviously an imitation of the original deck my test crew had designed, as it had most of the elements except for the fact that the role of the deck is totally different. Our deck was a combo deck that accelerated the gamestate and could still win with a good plan B if the combo would be folded, or combo out when the creatures couldn't fend off the aggression. The decks that have spawned from this original deck are the lists you see in this thread. These decks are more rockstyle decks and are not high impact enough for tier 1 legacy play imo.

Also, Deathgrip may be a good card against Elves and Maverick if you can get them online soon enough. The best thing about Deathgrip is that it has protection from Qasali Pridemage and disenchant-elves, and it can counter GSZ and Glimpse.

Arianrhod

08-03-2012, 10:32 AM

@W_W: The lack of Wasteland doesn't bother me -- but then my main version is the Rector version, which has Vindicate for that purpose, so I can definitely acknowledge that complaint. There's two problems with Wasteland as a card in this deck: you aren't denying their resources (note: unless they have no basics), and you are (likely) a tricolor deck. In a format defined by Wasteland, tricolor decks usually devote their entire mana base to fixing, and run 0 basics -- I'm thinking of RUG and BUG specifically here. We're not only a tricolor deck, but we're one with 6-8 basics, depending on who you talk to. That doesn't exactly leave room for Wasteland.

Curse of Death's Hold is what you're thinking of. Without nutting all over the place, is it really going to be fast enough vs combo elves, you think? Obv. landing it with a nut-draw is awesome, but generally speaking I'm less than enthused - especially in a non-white version that won't have access to Enlightened Tutor or Rector. Here's a different idea for a red version. Admittedly it has a lot of the same problems as Curse, but Aether Flash would do a hell of a job on elves. At that point you're basically all-in on Primeval/Broodmate/Garruk to actually win the game, but you can't have everything I guess.

I think that U/W leaves CB in vs us because if they go t1 Top t2 CB, that's going to cause some problems. Yeah, we have a lot of really varied mana costs including ones that basically nobody in legacy ever touches, but if they land CB lock while we're in the developmental stage, we're definitely going to have issues with that. I think if I were playing UW, I would take CB out vs Nic Fit...but I can certainly see the arguments for why they'd leave it in. Depends on their board I guess more than anything.

I still say that Liliana isn't as great as everyone makes her out to be. I dunno. I'd rather win by card advantage than by A: topdecking to victory or B: symmetrical card disadvantage that makes the game miserable for everyone. Yeah, our deck is built around value and 2+ for 1's, so we profit while they suffer. I get that. But rather than dumb down our advantage to 1 for -1, I'd rather actually play magic. I'm also one of those people that thinks that Miracle is one of the shittiest mechanics in the history of mechanics. Nobody likes to lose to a topdeck -- why the hell would you make that even worse? I'm also going to note here that there have been plenty of times where I've been in a topdeck war with Nic Fit (and decks like it), and I've lost that war. I'd rather have the resources and the ability to outplay my opponent than to be reliant on the top of my deck, no matter how much my deck -should- be better at topdecking. It never works out that way. And that's the last I'm saying on Queen Bitch.

Extirpate works the way you want it to with Miracle. Think of it this way -- the Miracle trigger just reveals the card once it's in their hand. You have the chance to respond to the Miracle trigger (blue mages do it all the time with Clique....putting it on the bottom before they have a chance to cast it). So if there is a Terminus in their graveyard, you can totally get rid of all of them in response to the trigger. Definitely.

Also still recommending a Cranial Extraction/Memoricide pair. If you take away their Entreats, Miracles just kind of sits there and stares at you. At that point it's just a less scary/strictly worse version of Stoneblade.

As far as Top goes -- Burning-Tree Shaman has definitely been considered, but I'm not sure that anyone has ever actually tried him. Otherwise, I think that something like Krosan Grip is really your only answer. I guess you could try to annoy them with Phyrexian Revoker?

I don't think Aggroloam is really what you're looking for -- it seems like you've been enjoying this deck so far, and Aggroloam, while being a fun deck, has a lot of problems that have never been / are impossible to actually fix. What do you want to do with the Nic Fit shell? That's probably the most important question. Right now I'm not sure that the red version is really the best fit for you...or if it is, you probably want the Valakut engine due to the timing restrictions on MODO. That's pretty dumb.

Thragtusk is definitely real.

Agree@Alexeezay -- why did you board out the Thoughtseizes? Also, RE Therapy -- I still like calling Glimpse. I could see calling Symbiote, though, and then Glimpse on the flashback. The scary thing about Glimpse is that depending on how they draw, they can just win on the spot. If you strip away their Glimpse, it gives you more time to deploy a devastating Deed or some other form of hate/sweep. I've experimented with naming their t1 manadork, but that seems subpar to me -- ideally we're giving them at least one or two lands to compensate for that dork, and frankly the dork doesn't do anything (also, they have like 3 or 4 options for the t1 dork, counting GSZ). I'd rather call something like Priest of Titania if you want to hit them in their mana. Symbiote is probably the best alternate call, though, because it hinders their backup draw engine (Visionary), and it also hurts their ability to rebuild after a Deed.

@Barook -- I've definitely got my eye on Jarad. There's a lot we just don't know yet, unfortunately. Latest translations at Salvation are saying that his drain ability costs 1BG, which is a bit more annoying. They're also saying that he has a 3rd ability: Sac a forest and a swamp: return him to your hand from your graveyard.

The biggest problem with Jarad for our deck is that we don't typically have many creatures in our graveyard, and we don't have something like Lord of Extinction that we'd want to sac to him for the Drain. The best we've got is like Kokusho, and Nightmare is just flat-out better. I sure as hell wouldn't want to sac my Sun Titan to him, unless it would be for lethal. You can always sac Explorers and Rectors and such to him, but that seems subpar....there's other sac outlets we could run if we wanted to.

I like where he's going, but I'm not sure that we're the deck for him (and frankly, I can't think of a deck in legacy where he would actually be good if not here).

@Bruizar --

I personally dislike red versions that do not run Burning Wish (Scapeshift is debatable). That doesn't mean that I won't attempt to offer solid advice to those who are trying to make it work. Also, Huntmaster is vastly superior to Finks. Broodmate is very meh, I'll agree, and Lightning Bolt is one of the better cards in the history of the game. I disagree that it's "mere removal." As you note, planeswalkers are really good in Deed decks. That means they're also really good against Deed decks, and Bolt is a good way to help fix that problem for the straight Jund lists.

I've experimented with Gitaxian Probe, and found it lacking. I recognize the benefits to Probe, but I'd rather make the deck more powerful as opposed to more compact. Playing a 56 card deck (+4 probe) is really good if you're a storm deck. It's not really good if you're a control deck.

Gifts is better for an Unburial Rites package, because you don't have to run trash like Gigapede, and it can set up much more devastating piles when you aren't on the Unburial plan. Liliana does get better alongside such a package, I'll grant, but I think that the overall clunkiness of going all-in on that concept (like I think you're suggesting....if I'm wrong, please correct me) is really not worth it. Best case scenario, you're a strictly worse Reanimator deck. Congratulations. What makes t3 Unburial flashback for Iona better than a much, much more consistent t2 fatty? This isn't even accounting for the Reanimator hate that it already prevalent within the meta.

I'm pretty sure that becoming a legacy Solar Flare deck is exactly the last thing we want to do, I'm sorry. The closest would be a Gifts version, but that's a true control shell with a combo, not the tempo/control of Solar Flare. Going all-in on the Solar Flare package sounds atrocious.

Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.

CRich3

08-03-2012, 12:34 PM

I may switch to Jund instead of GBW for this weekend tournament. But I will have to agree with Liliana of the Veil. Even though we are supposedly better at top decking it isnt as helpful against blue decks because they can play spells on your turn. I lost 2 top deck wars last week with Liliana out. One example is when I played UW Stoneblade I had Liliana at 3 counters I top deck Kitchen Finks cast it then +1 Liliana to 4. In response they play Snapcaster and Swords my Finks. So I think I will go to Primal Hunter next, especially since I UW Miracles and Stoneblade are 50% of my meta (reason why I'm switching to Jund)

Now fror my questions.

Innocent Blood vs Swords to Plowshares?
-I like the speed and targeting of STP but but I would prefer them not to gain life especially vs Show and Tell (Griselbrand).

Burning Wish vs Living Wish
-I seen someone mention this a few pages back and was wondering how it Living Wish worked out and if it was better than Burning Wish.

Even though he went 1-5..... :p. I think I will use Watery Wizards version as the basis to build off of. But I think I will try Burning Tree Shaman this sunday. Hopefully I can get more Huntmasters because I only have 1 right now.

Megadeus

08-03-2012, 01:07 PM

My living wish comment was simply a thought. I never tested it and I have no idea where to begin on that idea.

CRich3

08-03-2012, 01:29 PM

I was just asking if anyone has tried. It sounds like an interesting idea. It gives you the ability to use cards you don't want main decked. Like maze of ith, Karakas, Bojuka Bog. Plus all the creatures you would normally use as an answer. People don't usually counts the wish but the spell you wish for. So getting a Thrun vs control in Game 1 seems pretty good. But this is all theory so I was wondering if anyone has tested it.

Plus I don't have 4 burning wish but I do have 4 living wish right now lol.

from Cairo

08-03-2012, 01:41 PM

My living wish comment was simply a thought. I never tested it and I have no idea where to begin on that idea.

IBA advocated Living Wish for a while when the deck was just gaining notoriety via Caleb Durward's deck tech/videos. The deck hadn't explored the Red or Blue splashes really at that time, mostly GB and GBw. The perk of Living Wish seems like one gets to move their toolbox and 6ccs to the 'board and streamline the MD to be higher power, less situational, 'good cards'.

Basically devoting the 60 to being the engine of the deck: Explorers, Therapies, Tops, Witnesses, Deeds, insert ~4x pointed removal and discard of choice, Maelstrom Pulses, Planeswalkers/Nightmare/GSZ, etc. With Living Wish to pull up - Titans, Life-gain-guy, Artifact/Enchantment-hate-guy, Creature-hate-guy, Stronghold, Tower, Wasteland/Maze of Ith/Karakas.

Ultimately one is still tying up 6-8 slots with utility creatures and finishers. Living Wish gives the upside of not seeing Titans and irrelevant utility in the early game, but with the downside of it +2ing the casting cost.

Worth noting that when the meta's infested with Snapcaster + Spell Snare this plan seems awful since it makes Snare live against a deck that otherwise dodges CMC2 pretty well. I don't see this as the case right now, but it's something to bear in mind.

Personally, I wouldn't advocate Living Wish. I think if the MD utility slots are selected well, that they shouldn't be that awful to draw into even when there hate isn't optimal against a match up, and with 2x CMC6s one shouldn't really be crippled by them being dead draws too frequently. The deck often hits 6 mana by turn 4, so it's not much different than other control decks running some CMC4 finishers.

bruizar

08-03-2012, 01:45 PM

@Bruizar --

I personally dislike red versions that do not run Burning Wish (Scapeshift is debatable). That doesn't mean that I won't attempt to offer solid advice to those who are trying to make it work. Also, Huntmaster is vastly superior to Finks. Broodmate is very meh, I'll agree, and Lightning Bolt is one of the better cards in the history of the game. I disagree that it's "mere removal." As you note, planeswalkers are really good in Deed decks. That means they're also really good against Deed decks, and Bolt is a good way to help fix that problem for the straight Jund lists.

There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash

I've experimented with Gitaxian Probe, and found it lacking. I recognize the benefits to Probe, but I'd rather make the deck more powerful as opposed to more compact. Playing a 56 card deck (+4 probe) is really good if you're a storm deck. It's not really good if you're a control deck.

Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.

Gifts is better for an Unburial Rites package, because you don't have to run trash like Gigapede, and it can set up much more devastating piles when you aren't on the Unburial plan. Liliana does get better alongside such a package, I'll grant, but I think that the overall clunkiness of going all-in on that concept (like I think you're suggesting....if I'm wrong, please correct me) is really not worth it. Best case scenario, you're a strictly worse Reanimator deck. Congratulations. What makes t3 Unburial flashback for Iona better than a much, much more consistent t2 fatty? This isn't even accounting for the Reanimator hate that it already prevalent within the meta.

What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.

I'm pretty sure that becoming a legacy Solar Flare deck is exactly the last thing we want to do, I'm sorry. The closest would be a Gifts version, but that's a true control shell with a combo, not the tempo/control of Solar Flare. Going all-in on the Solar Flare package sounds atrocious.

I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about

Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.

This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

Constructive.

Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.
Meaningless.

Megadeus

08-03-2012, 02:05 PM

I agree there and I feel like Green Sun gives us great amounts of utility already. My though was use the wish as like a 2 of, just for random little situations.

Viridia

08-03-2012, 02:10 PM

There are ways to react to Jace without requiring a red splash

Obviously, you don't know the list I'm talking about, as it will result in infinite probes=infinite deck converted to infinite damage.

What are your Gifts piles? Unburial Rites was, at the time we discussed the deck, not even in existence yet. The combo I was talking about is different, but from testing, the minor splash of 1 Unburial Rites, 1 Gigapede and a dude was hardly a problem. You could even just leave the Gigapede out of the deck and go for a Cabal Therapy.

I'm pretty sure that you don't know what the hell you're talking about

1) I have nothing to prove. I think I responded to our Facebook page the week this thread was made, telling them they shouldn't have tested on MWS as we were planning to bring it to the GP.
2) As I note, this deck runs the entire framework / engine that we had made long before the Amsterdam GP, except it then adds useless cards like Garruk Primal Hunter and Broodmate Dragon.
3) It might, it might not be, who knows and who cares. I'm just steering you in the right direction for what I think this deck should be.

Constructive.

Meaningless.

I really don't want to join in on the flame-war, but you really don't have any right of saying anything without actually giving us a list with card choices etc. explained and testing results.

Water_Wizard

08-03-2012, 06:10 PM

oh btw Water_Wizard. Why did you board out Thoughtseize against UW? also Lightning Bolt isnt that bad against Jace. hmm. Why did you leave the Deeds in? Angel tokens?

I boarded Thoughtseize out over Liliana. I wanted permanent discard. However, I think I over-estimated Liliana vs. the UW Miracles match up. Vs. a UW Stoneblade list, I think Liliana is good. The reason is, they have to hold cards in their hands. STP, equipment they tutored up with a SFM, counterspells, Jace, if they are tight on mana, etc. Against UW Terminus, they play off the top of their deck. UW Terminus also taps out a lot less, relying more on flash creatures and miracles end-of-turn, so the matches play out much differently. Because UW Stoneblade needs to tap out to build board presence, you can sneak Liliana into play around a counterspell and then cause them to discard their counterspell. Conversely, UW Terminus hardly ever taps out, so any counterspells they possess are being aimed at Liliana.

Additionally, Lil's -2 is good vs. UW Stoneblade because they usually only have 1 or 2 creatures on the board at a time (SFM, SCM, germ token), but Terminus produces a slew of Angel tokens, so the -2 doesn't really matter, especially when they EtA at eot.

Another concern I had was Countertop lock (I don't think it's right for the UW player to leave Counterbalance in, but I'll discuss this below). I was already running a considerable amount of 1-drops (3 Pyroblast, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 SDT, 4 Veteran Explorer, 2 Extirpate). 3 casting cost is historically hard for UW decks to hit - they usually only run 1-2 3 CC cards (Vendilion Clique, Entreat the Angels). Because I predicted the game would go long, I figured Lil was a much better top deck in the mid-to-late game, as opposed to Thoughtseize.

However, I think we actually take the Aggro role in this match-up, so it's important to come out swinging, and I think an early Thoughtseize is crucial, especially on the Extirpate plan.

In the future, I will most likely leave Thoughtseize in and take out 2 Liliana.

Regarding Lightning Bolt for Jace, a good player, after seeing Lightning Bolt game 1 (which he did) will automatically hold priority and +2 Jace, negating Lightning Bolt's effect. Plus, I had 3 Pyroblast, so I had answers to Jace (hopefully catching him on the way into play).

Deeds and Pulses were for Angel tokens and for Counterbalance. The bane of Counterbalance decks is 3 cc cards. To a lesser extent, Deeds and Pulses helped out with Snapcaster Mages, which is one of the few creatures their deck runs.

@W_W: The lack of Wasteland doesn't bother me -- but then my main version is the Rector version, which has Vindicate for that purpose, so I can definitely acknowledge that complaint.

I was wondering what that Vindicate was for. How often do you actually find it? Additionally, do you find it is that helpful for land destruction? I guess you could rebuy it with E. Witness, but that seems pretty slow.

Curse of Death's Hold is what you're thinking of. Without nutting all over the place, is it really going to be fast enough vs combo elves, you think? Obv. landing it with a nut-draw is awesome, but generally speaking I'm less than enthused - especially in a non-white version that won't have access to Enlightened Tutor or Rector.

I'm sorry, I was thinking in a GBW Rector shell, I just didn't mention it.

I think that U/W leaves CB in vs us because if they go t1 Top t2 CB, that's going to cause some problems. Yeah, we have a lot of really varied mana costs including ones that basically nobody in legacy ever touches, but if they land CB lock while we're in the developmental stage, we're definitely going to have issues with that. I think if I were playing UW, I would take CB out vs Nic Fit...but I can certainly see the arguments for why they'd leave it in. Depends on their board I guess more than anything.

I commented on this above, but the bane of Counterbalance is 3 CC. Perhaps they board out some number of Counterbalances, but it's just not that strong of a card vs. our deck. Deed and Pulse really wreck it and they run 1-2 Cliques, 1-2 EtAs, so 3 CC is the weakest spot in their deck, assuming they leave FOW in. I was surprised to see that card as well.

I still say that Liliana isn't as great as everyone makes her out to be. I dunno. Agree@Alexeezay -- why did you board out the Thoughtseizes?

see above

Aether Flash, Aggro Loam, Extirpate
I think in the Jund version, Firespout is best. Firespout solves the board state, while Aether Flash on prevents future creatures from coming into play. Depending upon the version of Jund, I would worry about the RR cost, too. I recently added a 2nd basic Mountain to my deck, but I'm only running 4 red sources, and because I already have BB and GGG, it would be difficult to support RR as well.

Thanks for your comments and clarification about Aggro Loam and Extirpate.

SO, I played 5 matches last night with the Jund version and 2 games with a modified version of Arian's Rector list.

I made some changes to the Jund list, adding a 2nd Mountain for the 3rd Swamp and swapping 2 Innocent Blood for 2 Thoughtseize and adding a 2nd Scavenging Ooze for Deranged Hermit.

In the sideboard, I added 2 Firespouts for 2 Damnations, switched a Pyroblast for a Ancient Grudge, and removed a Scavening Ooze and an Extirpate for 2 Tsunamis

So, match 1 is against Merfolk and I just get absolutely killed. I blind Therapied on turn 1 and named Aether Vial to see a hand with Temporal Mastery, Brainstorm, 3 land and some fish. It turns out he was running Ponder, Brainstorm, and Temporal Mastery, I assume for some fish and other flex slots like Spell Pierce, Standstill, and Dismember (because he still ran Daze and Force of Will).
I made a play mistake on turn 2 when I GSZed for Veteran Explorer and flashbacked Cabal Therapy. He was able to put 2 Islands into play and Brainstorm in response to Therapy, hiding what he needed.
Game 2 was rough. He had a creature light hand, but he did have Daze and double FOW. He brought in Relic of Progenitus to keep me from using Ooze and gaining value from E Witness. One note on Merfolk, if they aren't playing creatures, they are holding counterspells (barring Aether Vial at eot), so play accordingly.

Match 2 I played the BG version of Nic Fit. From what I could tell, it seemed very similar to Caleb Durward's version including Grave Titan's, Deranged Hermits, and Hymn to Tourachs. What did someone say about the mirror match? It's like hippopotami fighting underwater? Well, this match was a little faster than that because he found Grave Titan both games and quickly beat me down with tokens. The Jund version doesn't really have any answers to a resolved Grave Titan, sans token removal followed by a sacrifice effect. I guess Pulse would work, but then you still have to deal with those tokens. On a related note, I think it's proper to remove all or some of your Veteran Explorers vs. the mirror and rely on top and land drops. Veteran Explorer almost always benefits the opposing Nic Fit player, because it is usually sacrificed at sorcery speed, meaning the opposing player will be able to more fully utilize the new lands.

At this point, I almost gave up on this deck. I was 0-2 for the night and 1-7 over the past two nights.

However, time for a little comeback :)

Match 3 was vs. Junk. His list looked similar to the list that T8'd GP Ghent, including Lingering Souls. Game 1 he stalled on mana. I had a bolt for his Dark Confidant and I was able to control his Goyf with Ooze. During a critical attack phase, I sacrificed my own Eternal Witness to Phyrexian Tower in order to eat it with Ooze, causing him to lose on a triple block (Goyf and 2 Soul's tokens).
Game 2 he left Mox Diamond in, which I think is a mistake vs. any deck running Deed because you 2:1 yourself once a Deed hits play. However, turn 1 Hymns and Dark Confidants can make up for this. Versus a less-removal heavy deck, it may be proper to leave in Mox Diamond in hopes of turn 1 Confidant -> card advantage -> victory, but vs. the Jund deck with Lightning Bolts, it's just too much of a risk.
This game comes down to him having an active Liliana, I spin my top and see fetchland and Garruk, Primal Hunter. I have 4 lands in play. I put fetch on top and Garruk 2nd from top. Draw fetch for the turn and play, Switch Top for Garruk, placing Top on top of my library. Crack fetch, shuffling Top, play Garruk and create a 3/3 token. I continue to create 3/3s, which he handles via Liliana and 2 Ghastly Demises, eventually building Garruk up to 7 loyalty. I have 10 lands in play and make 10 6/6 Wurms. I pray he doesn't top deck Engineered Explosives, Deed, or Maelstrom Pulse. He doesn't and I win.

Match 4 I don't remember much of, other than it was a win, I believe in 2 games. I'll look at my notes tonight and edit this if anything comes to me.

Match 5 is versus RUG. Game 1 he mulls to 5 and doesn't play a land. He doesn't drop any lands and on my turn 3 when I sacrifice Veteran Explorer via Innocent Blood, he conceeds. I incorrectly put him on Belcher and sideboard accordingly. Game 2 he leads with Tropical Island. I immediately realize my mistake, but I made an early Scavenging Ooze. He proceeds to drop 3 Wastelands into play, although it really doesn't matter because I have 3 basics. Ooze keeps beating for 2 and he concedes after Veteran Explorer joins the party. Not an exciting match, mainly my opponent losing to mana screw.

I ended up 4-7, so while not great, not horrible either. I'm still learning the deck, so I made some play mistakes and I also felt like I was on the bad side of variance while some of my opponent's were on the good side. Be strong and carry on.

At the end of the night, I played 2 games for fun with the Rector version vs. a GR budget Sligh deck (small, hasty creatures and burn). The first game I mulled to 5 and he was able to come out with enough quick beats and burn to finish me off. Game 2 I hit my early land drops and was able to Deed his board while I was at 4 life and he had 1 card in hand. The next turn I hit my 5th land to play Thragtusk, going up to 9. He Magma Jets me and attacks with a Hellspark and a 2 power creature. I had to block a Hellspark with Thragtusk and I drop to 5 with a 3/3 token in play. The following turn I hit my 6th land and cast Kokusho. I am able to get a Rector in play, swing with Kokusho, sac Rector to Tower, recur Kokusho twice. The next turn, I jumped Thragtusk (I bought him back with an E Witness somewhere along the line) with Elspeth to finish him off. He had some extra life from a Swords to Plowshares I used twice, via E. Witness recursion.

What I take away from these two games is that the Recurring Nightmare / Kokusho engine is rather slow. Additionally, it seems like everyone brings in graveyard hate vs. Nic Fit, so the Recurring engine only gives value to those sideboard cards. I think I'll keep playing the Rector version, but removing Recurring / Kokusho and Fleshbag Maurader (I never understood the point of this card, plus you have no way to tutor for him) for Ooze, Pridemage, and possibly a 4th GSZ. I think I may also try removing Fierce Empath and Sun Titan for additional Swords to Plowshares or a Primeval Titan. Fierce Empath has 1 target (Sun Titan), so it's an overpriced 1/1 if you happen to draw Sun Titan before hand. Additionally, Sun Titan and Moat are a non-bo. I realize you probably wouldn't want both in the same match, but you never know. Anyhow, I'll be tweaking the Rector version, any comments are welcome!

Claymore

08-03-2012, 07:05 PM

Kung Fu English

08-03-2012, 08:31 PM

Alright team, it's been about a week since I posted and 1 tournament has passed, but I've caught up on all the posts.

I played in a local 20 man legacy tournament in SW michigan last weekend with GBw. Here is the list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

I ended up 2-3 :/.

Round 1: had no idea what he was playing as he spent his first turn playing a land and discarding volrath's stronghold at some point. I got very confused and had no idea what to name with cabal therapy so I was just picking random things. He ended up getting out a Lilliana and kept Innocent blooding and cabal therapying me but it turns out he was on 43 Lands or Aggro Loam. I stabilized and got out a scavenging ooze to take him out g1. g2 was more of the same. I can't remember how I sided but I remember I ended up stabilizing at 1 life with a master of the wild hunt on board and took him out just before time. 1-0

Round 2: A quick volcanic made it clear he was on sneak and show or RUG delver. I think I named brainstorm first, then delver with therapy. He had no stifles. I made a lot of play mistakes game 1. Since I wasn't sure what he was on I grabbed duals with my fetches and he topdecked 2 wastelands. I made him FoW an explorer which left his hand void of counterspells, but the next turn he top decked a spell pierce and ruined my GSZ day. This left me at 2 mana the whole game with deed and pulse in hand. If i'd grabbed basics, i win. g2 I resolve explorer and get it off with therapy and proceed to roll. g3 I kept a sketchy 6 and never drew another land. 1-1.

Round 3: Playing my friend I drove there with. He's playing sneak and show which is all my cards because he has none. g1 I get karakas in play t2 and proceed to roll him. g2 I get a karakas again, and I have lilliana and a bunch of good stuff that should seal the game for me. He show and tells in a griz, which is fine but I vastly misplay and return it with karakas at teh end of MY turn, leaving it tapped which led to him sneak attacking into emrakul with me having no defense. g3 he t2 emrakuls and i have no answer. 1-2 because i'm a bad player.

Round 4: Spanish inquisition. We both grind for value all game. I take out his batterskull with therapy after stoneforging and then i pridemage his jitte and i win g1, he just grinds me with souls tokens g2 and we go 1-1 then into g3 he just outgrinds me. Well played on both sides, drew too much land down the stretch and no business. g3 I remember he extirpated or memoricided my deeds and something else too. 1-3

Round 5: Dredge. Guy has only been playing it for 1 week. I figured it out quick and got an ooze in play sealing the g1. g2 was similar, I sided out lilly and cabal therapy and brought in some stuff. He misplayed a cabal therapy naming ooze and when i had GSZ in hand I fetched the ooze the next turn, ensuring victory.

Overall I did ok but made many a play mistake so it's hard for me to judge. Things I learned:

Baneslayer is pretty nuts if they dont have removal right now. They usually can't attack through it.

Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

Sigarda is of course bonkers and will win the game single handedly. Thragtusk is also awesome but with no way to recur him I found myself wanting more. I think 1 of kitchen finks to go along with tusk so you can get it back with sun titan would be ideal, honestly.

Pridemage was pretty good and active in most matchups, but could be a SB card easily.

If one big drop had to go it'd be Grave Titan but he wins games.

4 Swords to plowshares woulda been nice I think.

22 Lands is probably 1 too many. I might drop 1 Bayou.

1 Maindeck Karakas is very handy. 2 Phyrexian towers is correct as well. You can get to 4-5 on turn t2-3 very consistently.

SB stuff:
Humility/curse of deaths hold never happened. Probably not worth it without running rector.

Enlightened tutor was sub par at best. I never cast it even if I had it.

Carpet of flowers is pretty good.

Memoricide/extirpate is great. I need to find a cranial extraction to add.

Damnation/perish never really came up.

Ichneumon druid I can't wait to actually use but I never played high tide or anything that would die to it.

I hope I can find a chains of mepho without paying 50 for it.

Overall I am going to change the deck substantially I think. The living wish plan sounds interesting especially to the point of grabbing karakas from the SB and thus being able to remove it from the main (or a 2nd in SB).

This is what I'm thinking for new list:

Creature (16)
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (21)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid

Water_Wizard

08-03-2012, 09:08 PM

Alright, I'll just say that your findings and next steps on Rector Fit made me go outside and mow the lawn. :P

Play a few more matches against decks that are actual legacy decks before taking out the powerful engines that experienced NicFitters (sorry) love and which make spectators go "wow, Legacy is insane".

No worries. I'll keep plugging away. Admittedly, I'm at a lower experience level with this deck than some of the other posters. (Although I do consider myself pretty-well versed in the overall Legacy format :wink:).

I didn't include this in my post, but I probably should have. The decisions I made were not based only upon my two games vs. a non-tiered Legacy deck, but also upon Viridia's GP Ghent tournament report, located here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24287-6-2-1-GP-Gent-with-Rector-Nic-Fit

At the end of his report, he comes to much the same conclusions. His deck is a little bit different than Arian's build and the build I made is a combination of the both of them. I basically adopted his changes to the deck, while adopting a few of my own.

I still don't understand Fleshbag Marauder. On his own, he's a good creature, but with no way to tutor or find him, he just seems too strange as a 1-of. All of the other 1-of's (beside a lone STP or Vindicate some lists run) can be found via GSZ or Rector. Thoughts on Fleshbag? I know this was discussed a few pages ago, but if I remember correctly, the discussion didn't get into specifics and focused on 'I like Fleshbag' or 'I don't like Fleshbag' type comments.

Congrats on mowing your lawn. I'll make sure create posts like that every time your grass gets high (no pun intended).

Alexeezay

08-03-2012, 10:05 PM

ah ok thanks for the insight

Arianrhod

08-03-2012, 11:55 PM

So....infinite posts while I was at FNM. Good, I like discussion :P

I'll add a more thorough read-through sometime tomorrow or Sunday, but for now I'll try to explain Fleshbag a bit. Fleshbag is a way of creating a The Abyss without actually hurting yourself. It's essentially a lategame solution when combined with Sun Titan or Volrath's Stronghold to completely lock down a board state. It's also a Show and Tell-able Innocent Blood, which can be pretty awesome. It's also something that I've pretty much discarded for the moment....it's really good when there's a lot of Sneak around, but otherwise it's backseat material. Definitely not something that needs to be in the deck given the current meta.

Claymore

08-04-2012, 12:58 PM

I've been a fan of flesh bag for awhile now, but I run him at x2. Apart from his great game 1 show and tell, he is a good early play against aggressive decks in a meta that largely do not care about your targeted removal, and sometimes early plays are what this deck lack. I would probably play Innocent Blood if it wasn't for the prevalence of Show in my area, but I do like his synergy with Sun Titan. He also gives you additional "emergency" sac outlets for Explorer.

I don't like him as a Singleton though, because that adds to the randomness of the deck. His x1 might have been a carry over from the days of Pod or Garruk Relentless..who I sometimes find myself longing for, haha. Dat creature tutor...

I'm curious why you say he isn't good in the current meta, since the largely top deck of RUG Delver has the incredibly annoying Mongoose, Maverick rolls with Mother of Runes, and of course there's Show and Tell. It's a dead card against other combo, but I treat him as a removal spell anyway. Actually, many decks seem to run creatures that avoid StP, or they roll with Spell Pierce to ruin your day.

Liliana is OK but I think I am going to drop her for Hymn to Tourach's again. I felt lacking in disruption severely.

I would run targeted discard over Hymn. I've been stalking the Rock thread and it's always a debate, but in the match ups where you want disruption (High Tide, Spanish Inquisition, Show and Tell, Hive Mind) you will want to hit their combo piece and not hope to hit it, especially early game where a Hymn might just be a redundant draw spell and a land followed by death... That is, if you make it to turn 2 at all. Since we don't overload on discard to rip hands apart we need our few disruption spells to be very precise. In other match ups we don't really need our turn 2 discard to be a random 2 for 1 because the rest of our deck is designed to do that, so I've been running between 2 and 3 discard spells (duress, IoK, or Thoughtseize) in addition to Therapies to decent success and haven't found it to dilute the deck too much.

I also find Gaddock Teeg to be more widely applicable than Iccunemon Druid (or whatever). Teeg can stop or slow down a wider variety of combo decks (Ad Nausem, Hive Mind, Sneak attack/through the breach, parts of High Tide) as well as stop Force of Will. Druid will slaughter High Tide and Storm of course, but as far as my testing goes that's about it.

Speaking of Hive Mind, is there another good counter to it? I found that Angels Grace was used before to stop the trigger on your turn, but I'm not sure if Grace would have use outside of this match up, like against storm or other combo decks in general.

bradstone

08-04-2012, 01:12 PM

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

Kung Fu English

08-04-2012, 04:28 PM

@ Kung Fu English: Your deck has GG, WW, and BB.... and a lot of it. Has this been giving you trouble at all? I know that any versions I've made haven't been able to support something like that.

I haven't had any trouble hitting ww or bb. Mostly bb is turn 3 for Lilly or late game, and ww is late game too.

The difficulty comes with bb on turn 2 for hymn. But casting liliana isn't a problem. This will probably be why I get a single cc discard spell over hymn as well.

You have so many options to fetch so getting the colors you need isn't too hard. And often you are using p tower to get the black you need as well so there's that.

Star|Scream

08-04-2012, 06:45 PM

Any good testing with a gifts list lately?

Philipp2293

08-04-2012, 08:38 PM

I'm currently testing a really cool 4 colour intuition based list. It's still really really rough but the basic shell seems pretty sweet. If testing proves succesfull I'll share it.

novatinhu

08-04-2012, 08:52 PM

Hello guys, Im very happy to say that i won my local event today, the matchs are:

Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Dredge won 2-1
Round 3: Belcher won 2-1
Round 4: Dredge won 2-1
Round 5: Maverick won 2-0
Round 6: ID
Semi: Belcher won 2-0
Finals: DragonStompy won 2-1

Im playing BGW list with 3 Seize main deck.

Cya

Viridia

08-04-2012, 09:15 PM

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

Arianrhod

08-04-2012, 09:23 PM

I'm guessing that Belcher went all in on Empty the Warrens / couldn't find a Belcher, and Deed went boom. It's possible...it's just also very rare.

novatinhu

08-04-2012, 09:37 PM

How on earth did you beat Belcher twice, even 2-0? Even with the extra discard that is a bad matchup :P

4 leyline
4 Cabal T
3 thoughtseize
1 E. tutor
1 EE
2 liliana
1 Gaddock teeg
2 Duress

Both games are 2-1 my mistake

Claymore

08-05-2012, 12:51 AM

Would you mind posting your list/sideboard? Your build seemed strong against the unfair decks, which is a problem I have in my meta.

Vacrix

08-05-2012, 05:19 AM

bruizar

08-05-2012, 05:49 AM

Has anyone tested Diabolic Intent? I'm playing it in a different list currently and its a beast.. but in this deck it would basically be a Demonic Tutor. It would allow you to find Deed when you really need it, or whatever else you need to adapt to the opponent's strategy. Playing it maindeck especially would mean that your post-board hate becomes that much stronger when you can tutor it up at will.

It can be really good, but I'd play with Dryad Arbor if you aren't already, because you don't want it to be useless. My bro played a singleton Hymn to Tourach to chain into after sacrificing Veteran Explorer to intent, but again, mostly a combo card.

jobdevries

08-05-2012, 07:40 AM

Has anyone tested Diabolic Intent? I'm playing it in a different list currently and its a beast.. but in this deck it would basically be a Demonic Tutor. It would allow you to find Deed when you really need it, or whatever else you need to adapt to the opponent's strategy. Playing it maindeck especially would mean that your post-board hate becomes that much stronger when you can tutor it up at will.

Diabolic Intent has been in there since the beginning, and it is bound to stay there. Started off with 3 of them, but reduced the number to 2 since I'm running 3 sensei's.
They are a nice addition to GSZ, due to the fact they can look up non-green creatures like Sun Titan or a postboard Peacekeeper. The additional cost of saccing a creature also helped out versus counter, like cabal therapy.

novatinhu

08-05-2012, 08:03 AM

Would you mind posting your list/sideboard? Your build seemed strong against the unfair decks, which is a problem I have in my meta.

Sure, here the list... When I build it I make it to play against the unfair decks.

// Lands

3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Spike Feeder

// Spells

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard

1 Spike Feeder
2 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg

Megadeus

08-05-2012, 05:49 PM

BUG fit with a deck tech? Awesome. I'm still a bit confused by hornet queen, but it doesn't seem the worst.

CRich3

08-05-2012, 07:27 PM

I played in a small legacy 11 man tournament today. I went a lousy 2-2.

//vs MUD (0-2)
G1: I mull to 5 with one land in hand. I cabal therapy him naming STP and see he is playing mud he has 2 Metalworkers, Lightning Greaves, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Darksteel Citadel, and Lodestone Golem. He draws wasteland plays Mox Diamond and greaves pitching Darksteel Citadel. I fetch for dryad arbor and cast Cabal Therapy getting rid of metal worker since I have Swords in hand. He plays City of Traitors Lodestone golem. I play fetch and swords his Golem. Then he taps city of traitors plays ancient tomb then casts Kudotha Forgemaster fetches for Sundering Titan and basically armageddons me.

G2: I keep a great hand. 2 Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer, Top, 2 fetch lands, and Kitchen finks. I turn 1 fetch swamp Cabal Therapy Metalworker. He revels 1 Metalwokrer, 2 chalice of the Void, 2 grim monolith and 2 lightning greaves and a Wurmcoil. Turn 1 Chalice for 1 and I get slaughter by Wurmcoil. Drew deed and and recurring nightmare but I was at 6 when I finally drew my 3rd land. Kitchen finks saved me a few turns and I popped deed the turn after but I couldn't catch up to Wurmcoil with Lightning Greaves.

Match: 0-1

//vs UR Dever (2-1)
G1. We go back and forth, he gets me down to 5. I cast Thragtusk, pod him into Sun Titan Brining back Kitchen finks and go to 12. He hits me for 2 with grim lavamancer. Then top decks fire blast and double fireblasts me and hits me for 2 with lavamancer.

G2. He spends most of his burn killing my Strangleroot Geists and Kitchen finks. But he gets me down to 8 with double flipped delver on the board. His had is empty and hits me for 6 while he is at 8. I cast Thragtusk and Phyrexian Metamorph it to gain 10.

G3. He plays island pass. I play turn 1 Carpet of flowers, then cabal therapy naming fire blasts taking 2 out of his hand (hand down to 4. Brainstorm, 2 Chain lightning and Scalding Tarn). He fetches mountain double Chain Lightning me on his turn. I use mana from Carpet of flowers to cast Veteran Explorer sac Explorer to Phyrexian Tower and cast Thragtusk turn 2. He scoops.

Matches: 1-1

//vs RUG Delver (1-2)
G1 I mull down to 5 and get stuck with the 2 lands in my starting hand until turn 6. I race him down to 6 with Double Strangleroot geists, but then he lands Tarmogoyf and I can't get through.

G2. I get an early Veteran Explorer Cabal Therapy to ramp into Birthing Pod then into Academy Rector. I get Thragktusk and deed. He steels my Thragtusk with Gilded Drake then I play Thrun swords Thragtusk and deed the board next turn for 2 and Thrun goes for the win.

G3. I get stuck on 3 mana and every turn he bounces my Kitchen finks until he draws a counter and kills me with Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf.

Matches: 1-2

//vs Zombies (2-1)
G1. He gets Turn 1 Gravecrawler, turn 2 Tidehollow Sculler then turn 3 Goblin Bombardment. He basically wipes out all my creatures with gravecrawler/Bombardment. I draw any removal fast enough.

G2. I mull to 5 with and get a turn 2 Academy rector with Phyrexian Tower out. I eventually get Curse of Death hold on him and now he can't cast anything.

G3. I play turn 3 deed and he holds off from playing to many spells. I leave it on the table while I filter through my library with top and fetch lands until I get Curse of Death Hold.

Matches: 2-2

//Decklist:

Lands: 21
4x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamps
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savanna
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Cabal Therapy

Creatures: 18
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Strangleroot Geist
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
2x Academy Rector
1x Phyrexian Metamoprh
1x Sigarda
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan

Spells: 21
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Birthing Pod
1x Recurring Nightmare
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Phyrexian Arena

My SB was thrown together because I couldn't find everything. I need more enchantments to get with Rector, just haven't acquired the ones I want yet.

Claymore

08-05-2012, 07:29 PM

Sounds pretty interesting, link?

conboy31

08-05-2012, 07:45 PM

BUG fit with a deck tech? Awesome. I'm still a bit confused by hornet queen, but it doesn't seem the worst.

Either Caffrey dropped or he's 3-3. I've tried hornet queen and it was not needed. The first thing I would do would be -1 hornet queen, +1 thrun. The FOW in the SB is neat, but it means the MD needs to run ponder instead of the much more powerful SDT. I am pretty sure 3 Jace, 1 empath + 6/6/7 drops is more top end than any vet deck needs. I'm happy that Caffrey brought bug vet and hopefully he comes out of the tournament with ideas on how to improve the bug version.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_veteran_bug_with_mic.html

Vacrix

08-05-2012, 08:51 PM

Strangleroot Geist looks pretty dope. In a list like that, I'd probably want to run Innocent Blood just because you'll have plenty of creatures to sac with x3 Geist and x4 GSZ.

Arianrhod

08-06-2012, 11:47 AM

Okay -- as usual, I'm going to work from the end backwards. This is probably going to be a pretty hefty dreadnought of a post.

@Caffrey's list: I gave Caffrey the original BUG list from some arbitrarily large number of pages ago, with Fact or Fictions, Nightmare looping Oracles/strixes etc. He's really local to me....just a few hours down the road from me. He was disheartened with Legacy due to the prevalence of Sneak/Show, and since the original BUG list was designed with that in mind, I gave it to him as in hope of re-energizing him, if you will. Well, he started grinding it on MODO, and he's been having a blast with it. He's been streaming it on Twitch.tv a lot as well...look for mchainmail on twitch.tv and you'll find a bunch of streams of him playing it.

He definitely made a lot of changes from the original list to better suit his playstyle and, I suspect, the MODO meta. I've tried to argue him back into running Extirpate over Nihil Spellbomb repeatedly, but he likes the bomb better =/ I have no idea what the correct number of Force of Wills is for a deck like this. My gut tells me that 3 is probably actually correct. 4 feels too much, and at 2 you can just never see them quick enough vs combo, which is where you really want to see them. I'd probably consider something like 3 Force/2 Flusterstorm for a countersuite...with any additional desired counters being Negates.

Hornet Queen is interesting. I initially argued against it as well, but he has a very valid point on behalf of the queen: it stabilizes. Usually, for the blue list, by the time it has reached god-tier mana (6+ drops), the opponent has a lot of board presence, or you're low on life, or whatnot. Thragtusk helps with this, but having a Green Sun-able god-drop that immediately stabilizes the board is a valid reason to run the Queen. I don't think that I would even consider Queen in any build except the blue one, but for that build, I dunno.

Trimming out the Facts is probably fine. While resolving a Fact or Fiction just feels amazing, it's -probably- too much. Jace, Brainstorm, and the value 2-drops are probably fine. I think that with a number of Forces less than 4, Ponder can and should safely be Top instead. Top being a better card than Ponder is another reason for less than 4 Forces IMO.

I disagree with cutting Nightmare and Kokusho in the blue list, since the blue list is very built around that as a plan. The blue list has 3 plans: Jace, Kokopuffs, and Grave Titan-punch. I mean sometimes E-Wit beatdown happens, but that isn't really a plan. Caff's list has Jace, Grave Titan-punch, and achievement unlocked: cast hornet queen in legacy. IMO, Kokopuffs is a much better plan than Queen. But, Caffrey is right that the blue list does definitely want something that can stabilize a board on resolution. Perhaps the Sphinx should be cut for something that achieves that goal. The only comparable creature that I can think of is Deranged Hermit, though, and that guy is ass. I will note the countrerpoint though -- Caff's testing was all done via MODO, which JUST got Thragtusk a few days ago. It's entirely possible that Kokopuffs can go back in, and that Thragtusk is sufficient stabilization.

@CRich: MUD is a shitty matchup for this deck in general. Also, g2 he had 8 cards in hand with no land? Lucky, I guess. Since your version runs more swords, I feel like naming Grim Monolith g2 would have been better than Metalworker. You could make an argument for naming Chalice of the Void on the play as well, but the problem there is that we actually circumvent Chalice pretty well. We just Zenith for Explorer through it, and we can still flashback Therapy to sac him (even if it doesn't do anything).

All I can say about round two is Thragtusk is pretty much the greatest card that could have possibly been printed for this deck. It does literally everything.

Did you have an Explorer or a Carpet in your opener vs Thresh game 3? Sometimes they get countered and it sucks, but I generally try to not keep a hand vs RUG without either an Explorer or a Carpet. You need the mana boost too much to get around their disruption. Like, Carpet of Flowers invalidates all of their counters except for Force....upwards of 8 cards in their deck that are completely dead. Pretty much same with Explorer, except he can also serve as a Moat.

Deed and Curse are better than the Zombie deck. Nough said.

What's the Cabal Therapy in your mana base supposed to be? Guessing Arbor? 21 lands including 2 Towers and an Arbor is really, really low, and it doesn't surprise me that you had mana problems. I'd strongly consider upping that by two lands...probably a Bayou and a Savannah, to smooth out your colors a bit more. Looking at your list, I would advise trimming the Metamorph and a Finks....Metamorph seems pretty poor maindeck (although I can definitely see him sb as a Pod target for reanimator/Sneak). The 2nd Finks is good with Pod, but with the full 4 GSZs and 2 Pods, I think you have enough tutoring to find the singleton. You don't need the lifegain as much because you have Thragtusk now. Your number one priority vs something like u/r delver or RUG is to set up Nightmare Tusk. Once you get that going, you aren't going to lose.

What enchantments do you want that you don't have yet, out of curiosity? I'm guessing Faith's Fetters is one of them, since a removal option is something that's missing from your toolbox.

@Nova: Why Spike Feeder over something like Finks? Also, no Thragtusk? I like the Engineered Explosives in the board -- seems like that would be a good help vs Belcher (t1 E.T. t2 play for 0, crack, kill all the gobbos). The full 4 Leyline of Sanctity definitely would annoy Belcher and other Storm-ish decks. I feel like your list is a little short on land as well, and it also looks a little threat-light. Why no Primeval Titan, since you're running Stronghold/Tower? I would think that getting that online would be better than Grave Titan for your list. It'd also be GSZ-able, which would be good -- you aren't running Empath to go-between GSZ->nongreen Titans. Otherwise, seems good =)

@Diabolic Intent: I'm currently testing a one-of Intent in my floater spot (was previously Wood Elves, which was passable but could be better ). I haven't had much time to test the past few days, so I can't really give my opinion on it yet. On paper it looks amazing, and it's something that I've actually wanted to test for months now, but I have just never actually done it. I think that if Intent doesn't work out how I want, I'll be running the 4th Green Sun's Zenith for the foreseeable future. I do like the ability of Intent to find anything, though.

@Starscream: There should be a Gifts build in the experimental section of the primer. That's the one I've been working on. The biggest problem with that particular Gifts list at least is that it requires [i]perfect play to maximize its potential. It's kind of like one of those stereotypical weapons in games and anime that is incredibly powerful, but takes skill beyond most mortals to actually use effectively. Like, in testing, when I actually hit on the exact right line at the exact right time, it blows pretty much anything away. Getting everything down perfectly at this point is more of a matter of blind luck for me though, sadly...I think I would need to spend a few years piloting the Gifts list before I could actually unlock its full potential. It's good, but it's stupid hard.

One thing that I haven't put in yet that I want to is the loop of Eternal Witness and Unearth. Having an immortal blocker seems pretty solid, and Unearth would be solid by itself at pretty much any stage of the game.

@Phillipp: definitely interested. Are there Accumulated Knowledges? If there are, that would be absolutely glorious. IntuitionAK with Eternal Witness in an Explorer shell seems so dirty.

@Claymore: Teeg has a very serious problem in my estimation: he hurts us, too. Cranial and Memoricide, IMO, are more serious threats to combo decks than Teeg is. Teeg is solid in Maverick because they have Mother of Runes, so they can protect him. We don't have any such protection, and Teeg turns off the more powerful hate cards. I've won a lot of games vs combo decks just by resolving a Cranial Extraction. Most of legacy's combo decks literally cannot win without certain cards.

Hive Mind you're pretty much screwed. It's one of those decks that's an atrocious matchup. It is also one of those matchups where if you can resolve a Cranial Extraction before you die, you're pretty much golden. Naming Hive Mind is pretty much the greatest thing ever because it kolds soooooooo many cards in their deck. They still have Show and Tell -> Fatty, but our decks already have some natural answers to that built in due to Sneak/Show existing. I mean, there's gonna be games where they go t1 Show-> Hive Mind -> Pact -> death, but there's not much you can do about that anyway. Some times the combo deck just wins. But if you manage to live four or five turns vs them, you can start making their life hell really quickly.

Angel's Grace seems really, really narrow...too narrow to be useful IMO.

IMO Fleshbag is a trap where RUG is concerned, and it's useless vs Maverick. Maverick always has weenies around to sac instead of something that's a legit threat. Maverick is basically sweep or bust, unless you just have a sea of spot removal. As for RUG....RUG is kind of like Merfolk, actually. They tend to have "dude hands" and "spell hands." Sometimes they have the "half and half" hands, which is what we tend to die to proportionate to how many lands they have (if they have more then 2, we're probably fine. if they have 1, we're fucked). When they have spell hands, odds are that Fleshbag will just sit there in your hand without anything to do. It can't trade up off of something derpy and swing for 3 vs RUG, because it'll just get Fire'd/Forked Bolt'd/whatever. If they have a dude hand, it won't do anything because they'll have enough creatures such that the only thing you'll have accomplished is to get them closer to threshold. It can't really block, because of either the above reason or because Delver has wings. The fact that it can't be Pierced is nice, but at that point you could just play Innocent Blood (if they Pierce it, it costs the same, but Blood is usually better vs other decks).

The other issue is that it is untutorable. It can't be GSZ'd, and frankly it would be a terrible Pod target because you wouldn't be able to continue the chain later...it's self-ending. Garruk would work, but if you have a flipped Garruk vs RUG that you're actually getting to activate, you've already won the game and you can do better than Fleshbag.

Now, this is an excellent segway into something I've been meaning to suggest for consideration to the thread as a whole.

Lately there's been a bit of talk about Living Wish again. The main problem with Living Wish is that it takes up a ton of sideboard space, and there are definitely matchups where we need to use that sideboard heavily. There's a card that, again, grrr, is an EDH staple that most people forget for competitive legacy play: Eladamri's Call. It literally Demonics for any creature. That means it has the same strength as Living Wish insofar as it can get non-green creatures (Canonist, Rector, Baneslayer, Fleshbag, Yixlid, whatever). It's also an instant, which means you can set up something big the following turn by utilizing your opponent's endstep. It shares the weakness of Wish to Snare, but it doesn't take up sideboard room.

Now, the issue is obviously why run Call over Diabolic Intent, and there, I don't have much. Intent requires a dude to sac, which can sometimes be a problem (but is amazing early with Explorer), but Call is an instant, so you can do the setup with Call where you can't with Intent. Intent also gets -any- card, not much any creature, which can definitely matter. I'm not actually sure which one is better, but it's worth remembering that Call exists, and IMO I would run Call over Living Wish. Just some food for thought.

novatinhu

08-06-2012, 12:59 PM

Okay -- as usual, I'm going to work from the end backwards. This is probably going to be a pretty hefty dreadnought of a post.

@Nova: Why Spike Feeder over something like Finks? Also, no Thragtusk? I like the Engineered Explosives in the board -- seems like that would be a good help vs Belcher (t1 E.T. t2 play for 0, crack, kill all the gobbos). The full 4 Leyline of Sanctity definitely would annoy Belcher and other Storm-ish decks. I feel like your list is a little short on land as well, and it also looks a little threat-light. Why no Primeval Titan, since you're running Stronghold/Tower? I would think that getting that online would be better than Grave Titan for your list. It'd also be GSZ-able, which would be good -- you aren't running Empath to go-between GSZ->nongreen Titans. Otherwise, seems good =)

Hello Arian, the explantions are:

Spike feeder over finks is simple becouse with feeder I can get 4 life in the same turn (very good vs. RUG and Burn) and I can kill the feeder in response to an Bridge from bellow hit the grave and remove it.

I never think run Primeval titan and Empath just becouse I always (or most time) have enought time to find my wincon, but I will test them offcourse.

Thragtusk I dont think its really necessary becouse that I dont use it.

Cya

Star|Scream

08-06-2012, 01:10 PM

@Arianrhod:

I was looking for any updates to the 3 color gifts lists being discussed a few weeks back. The one I tried had unearth and I was able to beat a BGw rock Nic Fit list with it. Also against ETW tokens you can wish for pulse, deed, witness, phyrexian tower for a kill with just 4 lands in play.

I'm still not sure what the main role of coiling oracle is. I get that it is a 2:1 semi-ramp agent, but why have 4 of them in the deck? Wouldn't having more bombs/planeswalkers be better suited? Also I don't always have UG on the second turn.

from Cairo

08-06-2012, 04:31 PM

Any good testing with a gifts list lately?

I've been running my list against a few friends that are on Merfolk, Goblins and Sneak and Show (and Show and Tell + Eureka) and the deck was holding it's own in matches. I need to get some testing in against RUG, Miracles, Maverick and Storm though. I've tuned the list a bit from the post a few pages back.

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Fierce Empath
1 Boneshredder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Unearth
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ghastly Demise

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Krosan Grip
1 <Open>

I'd been trying some anti-GY hate in the 15th SB slot like Pithing Needle and Noxious Revival, but am thinking that just having an alternate bomb of some sort would be more beneficial. Or filling the slot with another disruption spell.

Star|Scream

08-06-2012, 06:01 PM

Cairo:

My list is similar. Why finks over Thragtusk, and how are the 2 p. towers working out?

bradstone

08-06-2012, 07:05 PM

Hey guys! Been lurking this thread the past week as I just started getting into this deck. Been testing online with it a good amount and I played twice this past week with solid results with a Junk build. First tournament went:
2-1 Goblins
2-1 URW Blade
2-0 Pox
And then just split for 1st against MUD although I wanted to play it out

Yesterday went:
2-0 RUG Delver
0-2 Burn (Don't think its a bad matchup, was about 1 turn from stabilizing both games)
2-0 Pox
1-0 UW Miracles (Kid was slow)
Top 4:
0-2 Reanimator
1-2 High Tide

I'm definitely pleased with the results so far, especially being new to the deck. I also know now that I've really got to strengthen the board for Show n Tell/ Reanimator decks along with combo decks (High tide plays every sunday at my store). Here is my list reference:

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Swords to Plowshare

1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana, of the Viel

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood / Diabolic Intent (Can't decide!)

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Extripate
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Really looking to work on the sideboard to adjust for those unfair decks. I really would like to pick up a Chains of Mephistopheles and run it with 2 Diabolic Intents as tutors but it will be hard to get my hands on. Aside from that I could surely use some suggestions for good cards against Reanimator and High Tide as they're really popular in my meta.

from Cairo

08-06-2012, 08:24 PM

Cairo:

My list is similar. Why finks over Thragtusk, and how are the 2 p. towers working out?

Finks comes online earlier. Against Burn and Zoo a 4 mana GSZ is preferable to a 6. Also it interacts with the Unearth plan.

The 2nd Tower hasn't clogged me in testing and hitting one of them interacts well with most of the deck.

Arianrhod

08-07-2012, 09:56 AM

I'd still run a 'Tusk, though -- he's an amazing beatdown, while giving you a lot of time to stabilize, and being resistant to removal. He also makes a pretty nutty engine with Nightmare. I mean, if you've got a lot of Zoo and UR Delver locally, then Finks is definitely right -- but I'd look into running both if I were you.

The 2nd Tower doesn't usually clog me either, in the Rector version. Granted I have more need of it there, but it's just so good to have a Tower...it opens up so many lines. It really sucks that the damn thing is legendary.

@Bradstone -- what are you struggling with vs High Tide specifically? 4 Extirpates, 2 Canonist, 3 Thoughtseize, 3 Carpet should be doing pretty good work. I'm guessing that you're getting too greedy with your Extirpate targets. Vs High Tide, if you can manage to knock out their big players that's great....removing their Cunning Wishes or Time Spirals is amazing. But more often than not, it's better to take their cantrips as they use them. If you remove their Brainstorms, Merchant Scrolls, Ponders, Preordains....stupid little shit like that rather than the big money spells, you make their Time Spirals significantly worse, and a lot of the time, all you need to do to beat High Tide is enhance their inherent vulnerability to RNG. If you've ever seen High Tide whiff on a Spiral, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You want to make that more likely to happen, and the best way to do that is to strip out their cantrips and tutors. Again, if you manage to nab their Spirals somehow, then you probably just win on the spot....but it usually isn't worth the effort.

Don't forget, too, that with Extirpate you can virtually Hymn their two best cards. If they Brainstorm in resp. to a Therapy or a Thoughtseize, Extirpate their Brainstorms on the spot once you're done with your discard spell. Whatever they hid on top goes away then.

You might want to consider the Cranial Extraction / Memoricide package. That allows you to use your Extirpates with literal 0 reservations, because Cranial/Mem can just take whatever you want (usually Time Spiral). They're also really good vs Sneak/Show, because you can name the enabler with your discard, and target the creatures with extractions. Works well.

@Starscream -- I like Oracle because it's a roadblock that happens to ramp you, or cantrip at worst. I also like Oracle because it forms a draw engine with Nightmare, although I think last I heard Qweerios had cut that from his version. I would describe its "purpose" as such: a backup ramp engine that forms a lategame card advantage engine.

But if you break down everything it does, as per my rant, you will see the following:

-) Ramps
-) Cantrips
-) Blocks
-) Sacrifices to flashback Therapy
-) Lategame, forms a draw engine with Nightmare

Baleful Strix is exactly the same, with the exception that instead of Ramps, you add Deathtouch to the Blocks line, meaning it can serve as alternatively removal and/or Moat, depending on your opponents personality. I prefer splitting Oracle and Strix (anywhere from 2/2 to 3/3 or anything in between), although Qweerios prefers the ramp of Oracle to the deathtouch of Strix. I usually agree except when there's a lot of Sneak around, although I do think that some number of Strix is probably correct.

Also, Spike Feeder because Dredge is interesting. I don't have a lot of Dredge locally, but that's definitely something that those of you who do should keep in mind. Good catch by Nova, there.

novatinhu

08-07-2012, 10:57 AM

Also, Spike Feeder because Dredge is interesting. I don't have a lot of Dredge locally, but that's definitely something that those of you who do should keep in mind. Good catch by Nova, there.

Thx Arian, its amazing against dredge!

But Im thinking play with BUG lists too :laugh:

In manabase its ok play with:

4 verdant
4 Mysti Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Usea
1 Tropical
Volrath
Tower
Basics

:rolleyes:?

Cya

Star|Scream

08-07-2012, 11:17 AM

Arianrhod, I get what you're saying, but I'm wondering why there are 4 of them in the deck. Even when G/B used wall of blossoms, it only ran 1. So I guess my question is, why are 4 of them better in this deck than say one or two of them + two or three planeswalkers?

Arianrhod

08-07-2012, 11:26 AM

Well, the reason I was playing 4-6 Oracle/Strix combined is because I was running Nightmare, which made multiples actually useful. It's also nice to be able to just draw them natively without having to blow a GSZ on them -- however, at the same time, it's nice to have a "go-to" GSZ target that doesn't suck. Therapy -> Explorer/Therapy -> GSZ/Oracle -> ??? is a fairly common line of play. You can also nut out and do stuff like Therapy -> Explorer/Therapy -> Oracle/flip land -> Oracle -> ???, which is fun. Try not to get into the mindset of, "this is a better Wall of Blossoms." Rather, think of it like (after GSZ) "I'm playing 10 Veteran Explorers," considering an Oracle to be worth half an Explorer. That isn't quite true, of course, as Oracle is infinitely more valuable lategame because it can cantrip you into business when you need it.

Out of curiosity, have you tried running it with 4 Oracle/Strix, or is this based off of theory? Because looking at it on the page, it looks atrocious, I agree. Once you actually playing with Oracle, though, it's pretty amazing. It does everything the blue version wants to be doing. I still say I'd go 3 Oracle + 2 Strix, but that's just me. It's all about the value. Hell, Strix is often a 3-for-1 by itself. It draws a card, it kills a guy, and it fogs. I mean, I guess you could try like 4 Strix + 1 Oracle, because you can't GSZ for Strix, but the fact that Oracle puts the land into play is just savage.

If you have tried it, what don't you like about it? Does it feel too threat-light, or something?

Star|Scream

08-07-2012, 11:51 AM

I have tried it, but not extensively. I will keep trying it, but having 8-10 1/1's in the deck seems wrong to me. Also having to find UG so early kinda blows. My opponents were dropping real stuff, and I just had a 1/1 cantrip. I miss planeswalkers too.

Then again I am probably just playing the deck completely wrong. You would GSZ just for an oracle? I would think you'd hold it for at least a witness or an explorer/therapy

Arianrhod

08-07-2012, 12:05 PM

Should be some Jaces in there somewhere. And yeah -- think of it as a value-based control deck (because that's what it is). You aren't playing 8 1/1's. You -are- playing 4 Harrows that don't require you to sac a land, and 4 Explores, which happen to all do double duty and block for you as well as their spell effect. UG shouldn't be a problem -- something like Forest Trop or Bayou Trop is fairly common. Island Bayou. Whatever. Lots of ways to make it work as long as your mana base isn't built horribly wrong. And what "real stuff" are they doing?

They go land Hierarch pass. You go land Therapy (Knight), whiff seeing like Qasali, Stoneforge, Swords, land, land, let's say. They make land -> Qasali, swing for 2. You drop land -> Oracle, flip land, cast Explorer, flashback Therapy saccing Explorer, taking the Stoneforge, getting two more basics, casting another Oracle, revealing Deed.

And that isn't really "tipped" in the favor of the Nic Fit player, either. It's just a fairly common sequence of plays that has you up so many cards on your opponent that it isn't even funny.

CRich3

08-07-2012, 07:25 PM

I'm playing the rector build. I keep getting smashed but terminus then EOT Entreat. If I can get through terminus Entreat the Angels wont be a problem. Which Planeswalkers would be best to fit a Rector build? I was thinking using 2 Primal Hunters. Was thinking of using Garruk Relentless but he will never flip vs UW Miracles. I'm basically torn between Garruk Primal Hunter and Elspeth, Knight Errant.

Claymore

08-07-2012, 08:05 PM

With Rector you can cheat out Raking Canopy and nullify Entreat the Angels; it is tech being run by Enchantress

Cire_dk

08-08-2012, 06:25 AM

I am rather new to Nic Fit and started reading this thread with great interest.

How about a pernicious deed to deal with the angel tokens? In the W/U match up you should have some left for these situations or am I missing something?

Also some advice please: When getting to know the deck is it best to start of with a straight BG list or can I attempt the rector build which really appeals to me.

Arianrhod

08-08-2012, 08:42 AM

I actually like Raking Canopy a lot -- synergizes really nicely with Moat. Actually wasn't aware that card existed, lol. Now I need to find a foil xD

@Cire_dk -- IMO you can start with whatever version you want. Just keep in the back of your mind that you're not going to do so hot for a while. This archetype in general (and the Rector and Gifts versions in specific) are really, really hard to play. I loaned out my Rector build at my local last night, and a pretty competent magic player stumbled his way to 2-1-1, making oodles of misplays along the way. It happens, it's a tough deck. Just be patient with it, and it will reward you, though -- helps that you get to play one of the most fun decks in the format =) If you've got any questions or need any advice, we're here.

@general -- I played the Scapeshift version last night at my local, and went 4-0, beating Zoo, Deadguy, Burn, and RUG (in order). Zoo was zoo....Deadguy I was dead on board but combokilled him when he was at 33 life. Valakut x2 + 7 mountains = 42 to the dome =D The burn player and I have discovered in the past that I can actually race him, which is what happened last night, and then RUG was a slaughterfest. My deck actually felt like working for once against this particular player, and it walked all over him. G1 I Therapy'd his hand to shreds with an E-Wit after a Vet/Tower, then dropped 'Tusk and rode him to victory. G2 I had more modest ramp, but my Therapy snagged two Brainstorms, then in response to his Ponder (only land in play), I REB'd his Delver, which he Force'd. Then there was double Huntmaster, and he died.

Planning on playing the Scapeshift version at Jupiter this weekend. It's been running well for me lately, and I have an itch to play it. I'm going to be aggressively weaning the sideboard Wish targets down to the cream of the crop and trying to squeeze in a few more actual board cards. My maindeck is the same as the one that I made the finals of Mythic with, with the exception that I cut the Broodmage Dragon for a 2nd Thragtusk. Depending on how severely I trim the wish package, I might shave to 3 Burning Wishes....but I don't think that's going to happen. My guess is I'll end up around 9-10 Wish targets and 5-6 board cards. I'll keep you guys posted =)

Viridia

08-08-2012, 08:58 AM

@Arian Cire is actually a friend of mine and member of our team, so he'll be getting lots of advice and help in learning how to pilot the deck for sure:)
I like it that the Scapeshift version is working well, i thought about trying it, but Brainstorms and Jaces are calling me, so i'll be going to Gifts for now :)

bradstone

08-08-2012, 01:11 PM

@Arianrhod - Could you post your scapeshift list? Couldn't find any examples of it in the primer you posted a couple pages back

Arianrhod

08-08-2012, 08:02 PM

Sure. Here's my latest take on it -- sideboard is being worked on a lot right now, but the maindeck is pretty much fixed for the moment.

4 Veteran explorer
2 Eternal witness
3 Wood elves
3 Huntmaster of the fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval titan

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

4 Burning wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Scapeshift
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun's zenith

5 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground

//SB
3 Red elemental blast
2
1 Tsunami
1 Innocent blood
1 Reanimate
1 Scapeshift
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Haunting echoes
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Pulverize

Qweerios

08-09-2012, 01:25 AM

How does Valakut work with Blood Moon? Why 3 Huntmasters and 2 Thrags? Afraid of burn much?

Also, this Scapeshift list looks like it folds to Storm and High Tide.

Megadeus

08-09-2012, 04:16 AM

Played Punishing Fire Nic Fit tonight. I actually really like it much more than I thought I would. Went 2-2 kind of a disappointing finish but still had a blast!

Game 1: Burn 1-2

Basically he was top decking with me at 3 so he was top decking pretty live. He then got a fire last with me about to untap with an ooze. I feel like I want a bit more for this match up, but I'm not sure if thragtusk is it.

Game 2: RUG Delver 2-0

Pretty much destroyed him. I mean this is almost unloseable if you play tight. Don't think I was ever really in danger.

Game 3: UB Stiflenaught. 2-1

It was a very good game. Game 2 he got me with snapcaster beats thanks to stifle and trickbind being very good against us! Game 3 I got Liliana up to like 11.... Her ultimate just never seems to be needed.

Game 4: Goblins 1-2

Man. This was heartbreaking. Game 3 I therapy away 2 opening hand vials from him, and tear his hand to pieces with a triple therapy draw. But goblins actually is pretty good against us I think. They just have amazing natural cardvantage and it's a creature deck that deed doesn't just totally own.

Overall the combo was pretty good, though I may need to change some stuff up to accommodate it a bit. Huntmaster... I really like him, and he seems good, but against burn actually may not be as good as kitchen finks or spike feeder. Seeing as I have played either mono red or UR Delver every week I think I want some more burn hate... But what?

Alexeezay

08-09-2012, 04:33 AM

@scapeshift list: is SDT still necessary(good) without fetch lands? I know there is a lot of shuffle effects, but I think top is much worse without fetchies...
I thought of running 1 more deed and 2 discard spells instead or skeletal scrying

Arianrhod

08-09-2012, 08:49 AM

@Qweerios -- REBs help a lot, but I agree that the matchups are tricky. Ironically, a local High Tide player is actually more scared of the Scapeshift list than he is of my Rector build, because of its ability to just flat out kill him out of nowhere. Burning Wish -> Cranial Extraction is good, but TES is definitely not a fun matchup due to their varied lines of play. That, it is possible for the deck to get a turn 3 kill, which is the same speed as High Tide. It's just substantially less likely, lol.

3 Hunts and 2 Thragtusks is largely for RUG, actually, although making burn facepalm is good too. Hunts and Tusks are both pretty much better than their entire deck, with Tusk trading with Goose twice, and Hunts providing a stream of life, Delver kill, and wolf tokens. I am contemplating trimming one Huntmaster, but I'm unsure for what. Probably Scavenging Ooze.

Valakut does not interact favorably with Blood Moon. However, Blood Moon is rarely played currently, and Valakut, while Plan A, is hardly my only way of winning. This version also runs more basics than any other version, at a solid 10, so while Blood Moon is certainly obnoxious, it's not the end of the world. Also worth remembering is that usually the Blood Moon decks expend a lot of resources on getting Blood Moon out, and getting it out fast. They hope that the damage caused will make up for the resources they spent on it -- which is not the case here. If I need to, I can always Pulse a Blood Moon later in the game, and then just win. But I can also go beatdown, go valuetown with Huntmaster and Top, and go Burning->Haunting Echoes ftw.

@Alex -- As above, Top has other uses in this deck besides just the filtering, although that is certainly still important. Huntmaster and Top enables easy flipping for value (gets really silly with 2 Tops). This deck also pulls its land out really, really quickly, which allows Top to be a lot better than it usually is, actually. It's really rare where you get the triple land Top, or some other circumstance that actually requires you to shuffle. Usually you'll spin Top and see something like Land Tutor Creature, and then it's just a matter of what you want.

3 Deeds has been more than enough in this version, because you have additional sweep options out of Burning Wish. Skeletal Scrying isn't a horrible idea, although without Fetches, this version puts a lot fewer cards in the graveyard, and most of what it does, you want to Witness back later, so I'm not sure how good it would end up actually being.

@Megadeus -- are you running Thragtusk? The Tusk is pretty good at embarrassing burn, and so is Huntmaster. Worst case he's going to get you 2 life when he comes in, and then probably another 3 life when they aim a bolt at him. If they don't kill him, he's going to start getting really problematic for them as you start flipping him back and forth.

As for Goblins, did you get PFire online in that matchup? Seems like PFire would be better than that whole deck, although I agree that being Deed resistant is really annoying. I've never understood why Gobs have so many 4-drops. They're goblins, they're supposed to be diminutive and annoying, not beefy and annoying. If you're more worried about that in the future, you might want to consider adding a pair of Damnations to the board...that, combined with Deed and PFire, should fix that problem.

sumbahdy

08-09-2012, 11:36 AM

Am currently testing the BUG version running Gifts Ungiven package. For reference, am using Qweerios' list and the other dude from the previous pages(sorry can't remember his name).

I have played Vintage Gifts lots of times before and was hoping this was something of the same direction. With this mindset, am i playing the deck wrong? Casting gifts once is not usually eough to win the game.

Couple of questions:

1) How have the Zenith been so far? Lists usually run 3 pcs but with no Arbor to fetch, it xomes online on turn 2 which I find slow.
2) Coiling Oracle is great but how many is the correct number? Currently running 3 but how often do you Zenith it into play rather than Explorer?
3) I find Fierce Empath to be narrow. It only fetches Kokusho or Titan and nothing else. Is it really needwd? Can't fetch 5cc below(thragsk) so if we are to cut it, what would you put? The new M13 ceit maybe?
4) Lastly, am not liking the Kokusho loop. I would prefer the Grave Titan and another crit and go the beatdown route. Will also look for another crit to replace it. I saw Qweerios list running Primeval so will test that too.
5) I haven't tested the Jace version of the deck so wantin to ask others whatvis the advantage of it over the gifts version?

Planning to run this in a tournament so i would appreciate it if i could understand the deck bettwe. Thanks in advance.

david.gerco

08-09-2012, 01:32 PM

4 Veteran explorer
2 Eternal witness
3 Wood elves
3 Huntmaster of the fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval titan

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

4 Burning wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Scapeshift
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun's zenith

5 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground

If I may ask some questions....
- How's only 1 P. Titan working for you? Don't you miss more?
- 4 Therapy for only 15 creatures. Profitable?
- How often can you kill with Scapeshift? Do you find it a good solution/game kill?
- Do you find the deck slow? Heavy curve? ...

Thanks :wink:

Ryuu!

08-09-2012, 01:39 PM

Cabal therapy for 15 creatures + 4 Zenith, also you need something to kill the explorer!

Arianrhod

08-09-2012, 02:26 PM

If I may ask some questions....
- How's only 1 P. Titan working for you? Don't you miss more?
- 4 Therapy for only 15 creatures. Profitable?
- How often can you kill with Scapeshift? Do you find it a good solution/game kill?
- Do you find the deck slow? Heavy curve? ...

Thanks :wink:

Sure =) Questions and answers are always encouraged in this thread -- discussion is good!

The 1x Primeval has been perfectly fine for me. What I get with it wildly depends on what my line of play is -- sometimes I get Phyrexian Tower + Volrath's Stronghold, sometimes I grab the Valakuts, or a Valakut and a mountain, or two mountains, or two non-mountains. Usually, whatever it grabbed when it came into play, I win shortly thereafter, regardless of whether it sticks around or gets removed on sight. As such, IMO extra copies are redundant. Green Sun can grab it when I need to...no need to clog up the deck. I used to run a Broodmate Dragon alongside it, but that got taken out for a 2nd Thragtusk to improve the RUG matchup. At this point, I don't believe a 2nd 6+ drop is necessary in this version.

Cabal Therapy is always a 4-of in Nic Fit, no matter what version you're running. The synergy between Therapy and Explorer is what the deck is based around, and you want the maximum number of chances to make that happen. GSZ usually gets either a Veteran or a Wood Elf early in the game, both of which we're fine flashing back Therapy with. Huntmaster brings puppies which can be used, etc. I've never had a problem with Therapy...even in versions that run fewer creature than this. Modern legacy decks tend to give their opponents a lot of information, too, so even if you can't flash it back, it's okay. I'm looking specifically at Delver and Stoneforge, although if you're fairly intelligent and you've got a little experience with legacy, you can usually jedi your way into some good blind names.

Scapeshift kills happen somewhere just over half of the time. It's definitely my plan A with the deck, although, as I've noted before, I can win just fine without it. Scapeshift has won me games that I think basically no other card that is castable in Legacy could actually win, so yeah, I'm pretty happy with it, lol. Most of the time, all you need is 7 lands, and you win the game -- Valakut + 6 mountains = 18 damage. Most legacy decks do that missing 2 points of damage to themselves, through Forces, fetches, or other misc. sources. It's also not exactly hard for you to deal two damage to your opponent at some point before you hit 7 lands, although my preferred method is playing highly defensively and letting my opponent take themselves to 18. Depending on what I'm playing against, I don't even swing with my Veterans most of the time...they're almost always better held back as blockers -- either your opponent swings in, and you get lands, or they don't, and you make land drops the old fashioned way / Wood Elves. Sometimes swinging for those 2 points is correct, but it takes a bit of learning to judge properly.

I actually find the Scapeshift version the fastest version of the deck, by far. It can rarely stall out just by nature of not running fetches, but again, that's rare. Scapeshift is a very efficient win condition, and if Scapeshift is turned off somehow, the deck is perfectly fine dropping Tusks, Primeval, and Hunts for the beatdown, or Burning for Echoes to strip out your opponent's interaction and leave them crippled while you beat them down for literally anything. Rector and Gifts are both far slower and clunkier than the Scapeshift version...its curve is actually respectable for a legacy deck in general, compared to the rest of Nic Fit as a whole, lol.

Megadeus

08-09-2012, 02:46 PM

I think that thratusk is great, but at 5 mana is it fast enough against burn?

Arianrhod

08-09-2012, 02:54 PM

Easily. Burn decks will either burn out your Explorer and proceed to slam their hand on the table, or they'll swing into it with a GobGuide, Figure, whatever. Burn can't afford to sit there and not swing. That guarantees you'll get lands, which means Tusk is easily possible. The only time burn will kill you that quickly is when they have all burn and no dudes, which most stock burn decks play so many dudes that they tend to be pretty slow honestly. Dudes we can handle -- straight spells, not as well. Therapy's good at slowing them down, too. Fireblast is my go-to there, since it's their hardest hitting spell vs us (lol, price of progress), and it's their "finisher"....they can tap out for other burn spells, and then Fireblast for the kill without needing to pass turn.

5 mana really isn't "slow" in this deck, at all. You can get 5 mana on turn 2.

david.gerco

08-09-2012, 03:06 PM

Thanks for the fast response :)

For my experience with the deck, Thratusk is a must against R no Delver, UR Delver and RUG delver (all the evolutions:p) !
It's also pretty good against Control decks. Card advantage :cool:

Arianrhod
One of this deck strengths is to reach high drops easily and fast with the basic land plan by playing Explorer. It's always a good feeling eheh :tongue:

Megadeus

08-09-2012, 03:25 PM

I mean it just seems slow... Hmm I guess I'll pick one up and try it out. I'm so tired of losing to dumb burn decks... Such an awful feeling.

Alexeezay

08-09-2012, 08:11 PM

Arianrhod, lol I never knew why you love Wood Elves in Valakut-Fit so much...and then I realized how good it works with the Scapeshift plan =) lol I'm so stoked to play that deck

Arianrhod

08-09-2012, 08:18 PM

Tapping out for Wood Elves with Top in play is also one of the greatest feelings ever =D So much value. It's basically a chump blocking fetchland that can sometimes be sac'd to Therapy and doesn't cost you life.

GAROTOTIC

08-10-2012, 05:24 AM

I'm playing with this list:

// Lands
1 [A] Scrubland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [A] Swamp (1)
3 [A] Forest (1)
2 [A] Plains (1)
1 [A] Savannah
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [GAM] Grave Titan
1 [M11] Sun Titan
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [GPX] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 1 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

Arianrhod

08-10-2012, 09:14 AM

@Garo -- how has the Nether Void been for you? That's one of those cards that I've always wanted to test, but I've never got around to it. That, and I don't want to drop the $120 on it just to try it out, haha.

I don't like the third Leyline in your board -- I think 2 is plenty. Even if you don't have it in your opener, you can E.T for it and just cast it, or you can Rector it in. 3 seems like overkill to me. Also, there's a distinct lack of Thragtusk in your list, which should be corrected especially if you're running Nightmare. That synergy is really strong...much stronger than with Finks, since the persist screws up Nightmare loops.

Qweerios

08-10-2012, 04:20 PM

What about Explore for the Scapeshift version?

Also, here is my latest BUG Fit:

Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw

Spells (23)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Gifts Ungiven

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Damnation
1 Consuming Vapors

I don't really like the UU cost of Jace but he is very good... I still think it lacks at least 2 Innocent Blood. Oracle isn't as good as I first thought simply because commiting your second turn to Oracle is really a weak play when we ought to be casting TS, Therapy, GSZ@1, or IB on a Delver. Oracle will only ever be a GSZ target in a mana-short scenario when we are on 3 lands on T3 and have nothing better to do. Oracle makes a good complement to 4 Explorers + 4 GSZ (10 is fine but 12 is too many).

With this Bug Fit list, I should probably start testing Recurring Nightmare again. I reckon I could always drop the Loam Volrath Tower plan to support Recurring Nightmare more and open up some deck space but that would, IMO, weaken the deck and I don't think this deck needs more than 1 recursion engine (it has other issues to deal mainly).

My next step is to include said 2 IB to bump up the sac outlets to 7 (7-8 is my goal). Liliana (double black :cry:), Oracle, Thrun, and maybe Shriekmaw are the most likely cards to be replaced.

Megadeus

08-10-2012, 04:55 PM

I mean the list looks pretty good, but why negate? Is it a budget replacement for FoW?

Koby

08-10-2012, 05:19 PM

I mean the list looks pretty good, but why negate? Is it a budget replacement for FoW?

6 blue cards in the maindeck. Force of Will traditionally needs a minimum of 14 blue cards (including FOW) to be castable.

Star|Scream

08-10-2012, 05:33 PM

Arian: I am interested in building the BUG fit as I have the BG build and BGw Rock build completed, but I don't own a Karakas or Underground Sea. Would 3 Bayou & 3 Trop be a suitable replacement?

Also IOK or Duress as The thoughtseizes still elude me as well.

GAROTOTIC

08-10-2012, 05:54 PM

@Arianrhod -- Never used the Nether Void, i mean, never really casted it to see if it really Works, boarded it against TES, Belcher and another deck that i can’t remember by now.The game was either already won or already lost right before i could cast it.
I bought one just to have as na nice acquisition for my collection, but i don’t believe the deck really needs its effect.

I Always had a hard time against burn, that’s why i kept the third leyline, its good to save some time until i can draw a good threat, and by the way, this card is NUTS against combo. Waiting until the end of the third turn to tutor for it doesen’t seem to be a good plan for me.

About the Thragtusk, but, in what slot?The second finks?Deranged Hermit?A Split of one Finks/1 Thragtusk? I really don’t know.
Andy es, i’m using Recurring Nightmare, the synergy with about 80% of the creatures of the deck is AMAZING!Even if you just veteran a couple times in a turn.

I just started to read the topic from the very first page, at the momment i’m at the page 62, and because of this there are some informations that i haven’t read yet.

I really enjoy the decks, have been playing with it since january, with Caleb Durward’s first BG list, just after that, adapting it to Higashi’s BGW list, that i changed one thing or another

sumbahdy

08-10-2012, 09:27 PM

Qweerios

08-11-2012, 02:53 AM

Lily, Jace, Deeds, Shriekmaw, and Karakas are popular cards that I side out for the TS/Negates. Negates are really powerful against Miracle so I usualy side out Ooze, Shriek, and 2 Deeds. Against combo decks I tend to side out the 4 Deeds, Pulse, Shriek/Ooze, and Jace for the 4 TS and 4 Negates. Lilies, Shriek, and Jaces come out against Dredge, and I also throw out the Pulse/Deeds against Reanimator.

Star|Scream

08-11-2012, 02:03 PM

Qweerios: Please see my question to Arian above. I meant to direct it to you. my bad.

Claymore

08-11-2012, 07:29 PM

This might be too random of a question, but is there a "I win" combo for GB? In lists I have running around with Culling the Weak, it can generate massive amounts of mana but I lack good ways to use it, especially when it's often a one-shot ritual turn. I found Mikaeus + Triskelion but that might be too high cc across both components. I took a look at storm but most non-blue versions roll with Ad Nauseum. There is ob nixilis and scape shift...

I'm mostly limited to these colors (or white) due to not having other duals, but otherwise it feels like a mono-black storm when I go t1 explorer - culling the Weak for GBBBBXX on turn 2.

Edit: I fear that I didn't "expect" the Spanish Inquisition.

For now I'm experimenting with New Frontiers to give the deck some additional redundancy when you don't have an Explorer, and to make it relevant late game using some Landfall critters like Ob Nixilis and Rampaging Baloths. Phyrexian Obliterators to make Culling extra good. Throwing in Dark Ritual for the help of it lol

Megadeus

08-12-2012, 02:40 AM

I have been looking for a replacement for wickerbough elder because I don't know if I need it... I may try out a 1of Disciple of Bolas on Wednesday. If skeletal scrying is good, this guy seems awesome, and I know he is awesome in my standard deck

Arianrhod

08-12-2012, 10:21 AM

I split top 4 at Jupiter yesterday, taking home a Mox Pearl for my trouble. I'll do a more full writeup and post it later. I played the Scapeshift version....matchups were U/R Delver (W), Burn (W), TES (W), Sneak (L), RUG (W), Miracles (Draw), top 8 U/R Delver again (W), then split. There's a feature match against the Sneak player, and then later on they also featured game 3 my top 8 match vs U/R Delver. I'll fish out the link / timestamps for that when I do my full report.

Claymore

08-12-2012, 11:41 AM

Damn son, congrats!

Cire_dk

08-12-2012, 12:05 PM

@Arianrhod Well done!! I will be looking forward to your report.

? Did you play 3 Huntmasters? Any other changes to your list. I am also very curious about SB plan and choices. Since I am new to Nic Fit it helps me a lot to understand the deck. Thanks a lot.

Claymore

08-12-2012, 01:01 PM

I did a little digging and found the link for the video http://www.twitch.tv/jupitergames/b/328251813

Sneak Attack at 4:10 and RUG at 8:30

Arianrhod

08-12-2012, 01:13 PM

8:30 is actually vs U/R Delver, not RUG. And as I watched back the Sneak matchup earlier today, I saw literally the worst misplay I've ever made in my life, which cost me game one completely. I don't think that game three would have gone better -- he had four Leyline of Sanctity in his board, which really hurts any chance the Red version has, but I could have at least made a set out of it, rather than just folding 0-2. Rage.

And yeah, I played 3 Huntmasters. You can find the list here: http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51548/nelc-decklists-august-11th-2012

Claymore

08-12-2012, 01:49 PM

Ah, I see now. I assumed it was RUG because of all the Tropicals he fetched

What miss play, not calling Show on the flashback therapy?

bruizar

08-12-2012, 01:52 PM

I play a totally different version of the deck, but man I wonder how those Huntmasters play out. That card is so cool.

Arianrhod

08-12-2012, 02:13 PM

No, I actually WANTED him to Show and Tell. I had Primeval in hand, and putting that in off of Show would enable me to use my removal spells to get rid of whatever he Showed. If he went Emrakul, he would be out of gas and I would just Wish for Blood. If he went Griselbrand, I had a Pulse that I could use to take out the demon, which he'd draw 7. If he found a counter, I would Wish for Blood and still take it out, and he would, again, be out of gas. If he didn't, I would Wish for Reanimate and bring back the demon on my side, which would be my best recovery for when he had the inevitable Sneak+Emrakul (if he drew 7 and didn't hit a counter, he had to have that instead).

This all went perfectly according to plan....except for when I miscounted my mana and mistakenly thought that I had to sac Primeval to Tower to get the mana for the Wish+Reanimate. If I hadn't done that, I would have been able to keep Primeval alive after he swung with Emrakul, thereby killing him (he was at 5). But I just ferociously threw it away instead :|

Qweerios

08-12-2012, 03:28 PM

@Star Scream,

You can play BUG without any UDG Seas. Trop and Bayou are the important ones. The UDG Sea is mostly there for those times when you open up with a basic forest, follow up with an Oracle, and intend to play a T3 Lily.

As for the SB, you can use Duress instead of TS. You will like them better against Reanimator but you won't like them as much against Blade decks and Sneak Show.

UseLess

08-12-2012, 04:22 PM

So after some inspiring ideas from this thread I updated my BUG gifts list. Here is what I'm testing currently:

// Lands (21)
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Fierce Empath
1 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx

// Spells (25)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

// Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Daze
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Kitchen Finks

The manabase is unchanged, although I'm still in doubt whether or not to cut dryad arbor. Sometimes it's nice to be able to GSZ it, but other times it's plain horrible. In the main I changed -1 Karn, -1 GSZ, -1 Kodama of the North Tree for +1 Innocent blood, +1 Unearth and +1 Thragtusk. Vorapede is in consideration of the 5 drop, but since everybody loves Thragtusk so much I'm currently testing that one. Unearth is absolutely fantastic. It makes Gift piles so much better and less mana intensive when you can just recurr snapcaster or witness for 1 mana. Negate was changed with spell pierce, which is horrible after turn 3/4. Maybe I should go -1 Daze, +1 negate, but I like the fact that Daze can be played very early and doesn't require open mana. Some local tournaments are coming up and if I can loan the missing cards I'll give it a spin and let you guys know.

CRich3

08-12-2012, 09:40 PM

Megadeus

08-13-2012, 12:30 AM

I play a totally different version of the deck, but man I wonder how those Huntmasters play out. That card is so cool.

He is one of my favorite creatures inthe deck. So versatile and difficult to totally get rid of. And it creates awkward positions for your opponent who draw something they may not want to play immediately. I do think he is a bit worse vs burn than finks though sadly. Finks you didn't have to do any work to get extra life.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

08-13-2012, 12:58 AM

HoneyT got 28th at SCG Kansas City with GB Nic Fit, 5-2-1.

jbone2016

08-13-2012, 04:59 AM

Long time watcher, first time poster. I ended up going 4-4 at KC with the Rector version. I'll try to get a list/report up once I have time.

Does it seems to be right to side in the humility/curse lock against most tribal decks?

bruizar

08-13-2012, 05:10 AM

He is one of my favorite creatures inthe deck. So versatile and difficult to totally get rid of. And it creates awkward positions for your opponent who draw something they may not want to play immediately. I do think he is a bit worse vs burn than finks though sadly. Finks you didn't have to do any work to get extra life.

How hard is it to control his flips? I'm asking this because, on an unrelated note, I have always liked Mayor of Avabruck on paper (not for nic fit), but for control type decks.

Do you find that you and your opponent are trying to play around the 0 and 2 spells per turn limit, and do you experience that one or both players go down to 0 cards in hand to prevent the card from flipping during any turn?

Arianrhod

08-13-2012, 11:05 AM

I'll probably end up double posting in a bit (unless someone posts between now and then) once I have my notebook with me to write up my tournament report.

I don't find controlling Hunts to be a problem at all. When he doesn't just eat removal on the spot, your opponent is left with a choice: they can either cast a spell to stop him from flipping, or they can not cast a spell and just deal with it. If they cast a spell, then you have the same decision -- depending on board state, I've both ignored him and kept doing stuff, or passed the turn to flip him. All depends. If they didn't cast a spell, then you get to swing for 6, cast two spells for another two life and another wolf, and continue applying pressure.

Having a second Top makes controlling Hunts a lot easier, but it isn't necessary at all. Burning Wish does a good job of getting two spells in a turn, as does Witness. Beyond that, if you're on the Huntmaster plan, the game can fall into a sort of natural rhythm where you hoard spells, pass without doing anything, play two of them, hoard again, etc. It's actually pretty easy.

Jbone and HoneyT -- well done! I look forward to hearing more from both you.

@Jbone -- it depends on the deck, honestly. I usually don't bring it in vs Fish or Gobs, but I always bring it in vs Elves. The main difference is that Elves can actively combo you out, whereas you can lock Fish and Gobs with Moat. If you run into the combo Gobs that sometimes runs around, then it's fine to bring in the Humility vs them (but I would still leave Curse in the board).

@Megadeus -- I don't think he's worse than Finks vs burn at all. He has a very serious advantage that Finks doesn't have: he's a serious clock in a matchup where we don't have infinite time. It's also worth remembering that Hunts can easily provide a steady stream of life, whereas Finks will usually only get you two life (they won't kill it if at all possible, so you need a sac outlet for full value).

@CRich -- I was actively trying to set up a Valakut kill on the next turn. If you have Valakut out, and you're at 4 Mountains, the next Primeval swing will put you to 6...but because of the way Valakut triggers, both mountains would count as bolts. The deck only runs 11 mountains, so I need to be as conservative with my "ammo" as I can, so to speak. That being said, you're completely right. There was a line there I didn't even see, where I sac Primeval to Tower, then Reanimate it to just kill him on the spot. Definitely a good trick to remember for the future -- Valakut has so many weird interactions like that. Good spot. I'm starting to think that I adopted the literal only line where I -couldn't- win that game, lol.

@UseLess -- Unearth is amazing! I put one in the 4c Gifts version that a friend of mine played at Vestal this weekend, and it did really sweet things for him all day. He still sucked, but that was primarily pilot error, not deck construction.

Thragtusk is definitely amazing. The fact that it is Submerge resistant is sweet, as well as that it trades with two Monguise, and swings for chunks every turn. In white versions, I think that Sigarda is still a bit better for the GSZ5, but Tusk definitely has its place alongside her. Other versions should really consider running two of them -- I trimmed Broodmate for my 2nd Tusk, and am not looking back. I'd suggest cutting the Arbor, and how good has Trygon Predator actually been? Seems more like a good sideboard option....or is it a meta call? The Dazes in the board look terrible. That can't actually be good =/ Otherwise looks pretty good =)