[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[sumbahdy]

Would you guys recommend playing BUG Gifts if the meta is expected to be Miracles? Am using the Recurring Nightmare with Unearth in a Gifts BUG and I must say that Unearth has been amazing. Though am considering to cut a 3rd Gifts and eventually going down to 2 in favor of more discard.

@UseLess
How has the split between Liliana and Jace been? I can't fit them in the deck either. Also about Fierce Empath, with only 2 targets, is it worth the slot?

[xdavisx]

*DISCLAIMER* I powered out this subpar report for a friend roughly around 4am. The time in which I got home. I did get to meet honeyT and the dude is rad.

I went x-3 at the scg today. I decided to play jund nic fit. This was the first time playing the deck (besides the few games i played in the hotel the night before) I was pretty happy how things went. The deck was insane all day. Thragtusk and broodmate dragon were all stars all day long. I just got home but i'll try to recount the best i can.

Round 1 High Tide 0-2

Terrible match up. He goes off turn 2-3 both games and I get a massive brain freeze.

Round 2 Belcher 0-2
FUCK man, as soon as he went turn 1 gitaxian probe followed by a street wraith cycle I knew it was gonna be a long shitty day. I lose on turn 1 both games.

Round 3 RUG 2-1
I take some damage off delvers and goyfs, I blow the world with deed and follow it up with 2 thragtusk and just cruise from there. This is how games 1 and 3 go.

Round 4 Merfolk 2-0
I ramp us both into a bunch of mana and he continues to flood out while I drop some hunt masters followed up with a thragtusk. Game 2 he mulligans to 6 and he sticks a standstill. I was way totally piped on this cause I'll just continue to play lands and stick something huge. I break the standstill with a cabal therapy naming force of will and hit. Seeing he has no other counter I green sun for 6 and stick a brood mate dragon and smash then some more thragtusks.

Round 5 B/W Stoneblade 2-0
We both trade some discard spells and then he plays stoneforge mystic, fetching batter skill then resolves some lingering souls. I maelstrom pulse the batter skull then wipe the board with deed and smash with MVP thragtusk. Game 2 finished in similar fashion.

Round 6 Aggro Loam 2-0
Now this was a very long tedious match. Deed, pulse and scavenging ozze were all house in this match both being able to deal with the shitty seismic assault and life from the loam. Game 2 went the same route but with some dope blind calls with cabal therapy and hitting seismic assaults on turn 1.

Round 7 Goblins 0-2
Eh, I mulligan both games and he overruns me the best way goblins can.

Round 8 2-0 RUG 2-0
See round 3.

I was pretty stoaked on how i managed to crawl back from the lower levels of tables to the higher ones. :cool:


1 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (13)
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder

2 Senseis Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 lightning bolt
2 Terminate

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Suns Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 garruk primal hunter

[Megadeus]

Congrats on the good day man. Rough about your first 2 match ups though... No huge bomb after broodmate dragon though? I always have liked having my gravetitan to just win the game. I'll have to try out Thragtusk I guess... I need to pick one up!

[UseLess]

@ sumbahdy

The two planeswalkers perform very nice. Never had any complains about them and they were never redundant or so, nor did I have the feeling I wasn't drawning (tutoring) them enough. Both are gamebreakers on a favorable/even boardstate and Liliana is always good vs creatures. I don't use her +1 that much, but getting 2 edicts out of her is usually plenty to seal the deal. I used to run Karn as well, which made for very cheesy Gift piles (Karn, Lily, Jace, Witness) but he just costed too much. When getting 2 cards from the gift I wanted to play both of them, not just one.

The empath is worth it because you have a way to tutor your six drops with GSZ. Especially late game this is desirable as blue lists can't fetch large knights or 5/5 flyer hexproof that can't be sacrificed. Without, GSZ can be become rather a dead card fetching only mediocre creatures at best.

@Arianrhod

The trygon predator is good. Apart from its ability its a 2/3 flying and flying is good. It mainly was meant as a replacement for Qasali Pridemage, to have a tutorable answer to artifacts/enchantments. Never dissapointed to draw it and haven't even considered yet replacing it. On the dazes I can't say much. As I said I have not yet played a real tournament, only playtesting and MWS, but it was good vs Reanimate, SnT and combo which are rather poor matchups otherwise. It gives me some T1 interaction which Im confortable with. I hope to give the deck a spin next saturday, then I'll give you an update.

[Arianrhod]

@UseLess -- Fair enough. As long as there's thought behind it, by all means, experiment and see how it goes. I feel like Daze will be disappointing, but it's worth a shot I suppose.

I wrote up my tournament report finally. It's posted in the Tournament Reports forum on the main Source page. Here's the link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24452-Top-4-at-Jupiter-Nic-Fit-Red-Scapewish&p=665121#post665121

[HoneyT]

I placed 28th at SCG KC yesterday. Record of 5-2-1. Played straight G/B. Here's a brief summary:

Round 1: Goblins 2-0
Round 2: High Tide 2-0
Round 3: Maverick 2-1
Round 4: RUG Delver 2-1
Round 5: U/W Stoneblade 0-2
Round 6: Elves 1-2
Round 7: Merfolk 2-0
Round 8: Esperblade 1-1-1

I'll have a more in-depth report coming soon!

[Alexeezay]

I also played Valakut-Scapeshift-Nic Fit last saturday at the local legacy.
I never played it before and never playtested it but it felt challenging and was a blast to play.
I ended up 2-3 which should have been 4-1 or 5-0 due to play mistakes.
Lost against 2 UW Miracles & Modern Bant Pod (wtf haha)
Won against Sam Black's Zombardment and Jund Nic Fit

I really hate the miracle match ups. One game I Therapie'd him 3 times, Extracted Jace TMS left him with lands and a Top (I named Brainstorm 1st turn 1st therapy, then I realized you should always name SDT on the play in this match up), then he simply miracled a big Entreat the Angels at some point and still won because EOT Entreat > Pulse, lol. Other than that it was an awkward and funny tournament.
I definitely keep on playing scapeshift & share with you my updates and stuff

[Cire_dk]

Since miracle match ups seem to be a problem for Nic Fit players. I wonder if there are any suggestions how to be better prepared for them in the current GB, Rector and Scapeshift versions. It seems that an EOT entreat is the biggest problem. Can we prepare by having a deed on the table all the time? Seems pretty difficult?

[Alexeezay]

Well, UW Miracle often is hard fight, especially after sideboarding when they get Vendilion Cliques.I think the problem is that they can always get their "lucky" top decks like Entreat the Angels even if you kind of dominated the game so far and disrupt them...while with a Deed already in play you're safe.
In my opinion, miracle is easily winnable with correct side boarding and they can't really interact with valakut against scapeshift-nic fit

[Arianrhod]

While it's true that a Deed onboard means you're "safer," it does not mean you're safe. They all have some number of Disenchants, and they're perfectly fine just sitting there waiting until they draw one (or a Snap if they've already killed something), nuke Deed, then EoT Entreat.

IMO, Entreat is the real problem in the deck. If we extract their Entreats, they're just left with Jace as a win condition. Now, Jace is still pretty good against us, but let's face it -- we know how to deal with Jace. We have Pulse, Vindicate, Sigarda, Tusk, Valakut, Fetters, REBs, Thrun, Huntmaster, Grave Titan, and a few other toys....all of which can be used to shit on Jace. To that end, I'd prioritize getting rid of Entreat accordingly.

And Alex is exactly right -- they don't run Wasteland, and they're a slow enough deck that we can actually Valakut them out literally just by playing lands. That said, you need to be careful with it so that you don't run out too many mountains before you have the 2nd Valakut. I'd hold any excess mountains until that point, once you hit the 5 requirement. That leaves you 6 shots in the deck, which, with double Valakut, gives you 36 damage to distribute to Jaces and/or face.

[Justin]

While it's true that a Deed onboard means you're "safer," it does not mean you're safe. They all have some number of Disenchants, and they're perfectly fine just sitting there waiting until they draw one (or a Snap if they've already killed something), nuke Deed, then EoT Entreat.

IMO, Entreat is the real problem in the deck. If we extract their Entreats, they're just left with Jace as a win condition. Now, Jace is still pretty good against us, but let's face it -- we know how to deal with Jace. We have Pulse, Vindicate, Sigarda, Tusk, Valakut, Fetters, REBs, Thrun, Huntmaster, Grave Titan, and a few other toys....all of which can be used to shit on Jace. To that end, I'd prioritize getting rid of Entreat accordingly.

And Alex is exactly right -- they don't run Wasteland, and they're a slow enough deck that we can actually Valakut them out literally just by playing lands. That said, you need to be careful with it so that you don't run out too many mountains before you have the 2nd Valakut. I'd hold any excess mountains until that point, once you hit the 5 requirement. That leaves you 6 shots in the deck, which, with double Valakut, gives you 36 damage to distribute to Jaces and/or face.

Yeah, I think that UW Miracles is a favorable matchup for Nic Fit. I played UW Miracles against a Nic Fit deck, lost and was extremely frustrated with by the matchup. Nic Fit has the advantage in this matchup in both the short game and the long game. It can disrupt them early with discard, Thoughtseize and Therapy/Explorer combo etc. And it can answer their win conditions. Maelstrom Pulse is really strong as it can kill all their Angel tokens or Jace. Running Top really helps against Jace, because it negates the effectiveness of its "fateseal" ability. It makes them not want to use Jace as a win con if you have a top out and brainstorm instead to find an Entreat, which you can stop with Pulse or Deed. Plus, you can recur your stuff with Witness and Volrath's Stronghold and combo those with Phyrexian Tower, while they don't have wastes to deal with your lands. If you can resolve a Primeval Titan, it pretty much crushes them, as you can fetch a Stronghold or a couple Treetop Villages.

[Cire_dk]

@Justin I agree with the solutions you offer but because they cast entreat EoT it is not possible to resolve a pulse. As mentioned before a deed might work but they have many answers. I still like an earlier suggestion of using raking canopy with a rector on the board. This gives an instant answer and can be used again with Eternal witness for their possible second entreat. Although once you countered number one cranial extraction will take care of the rest.

[Viridia]

To be honest, it really depends on who's playing the deck, a mate of mine pilots UW Miracle and is incredibly good, and extremely hard to win against (i have to admit, he runs Clique mainboard, which often forces you to play out the Deed early aswell as forcing you to pop it to not die to Clique/Snapcaster beats).
But i think if you play it carefully and dont run too many threats into the board (2 is enough), preferably Thragtusk + something, it means they can't X for 1 you easily with Terminus and chain StP->Snapcaster-StP etc.

[Star|Scream]

I would think sandbagging a Negate specifically for ETA or disenchant on your deed would help in BUG fit, but I've never played the match.

[Arianrhod]

Agreed@Viridia. IMO, Cranial Extraction and Memoricide are our strongest weapons in the matchup. If we can remove Entreat, they're just a really bad Jace deck, which, while annoying, should be fairly easily beatable. Extirpate on a Terminus in response to a 2nd Terminus's Miracle trigger can do some pretty good work too, as long as they don't have Counterbalance out (there would be a 1-drop (top) on top of their deck, most likely....keep in mind that CB still triggers under Split Second).

I do love me some Raking Canopy...along with onboard Deed, it gives them a lot of problems before they can actually Entreat ftw, despite Disenchant + Snap-disenchant. It also shuts down Clique beats, and comes in vs Delver. Good multi-purpose card for Rector builds....props to Claymore for that.

Justin is correct in that versions with Primeval Titan are favored over those that don't run it -- Primeval's presence means lands that do annoying things, which Miracles can't support Wasteland -> has no way of dealing with that. Even if the Titan doesn't resolve, the matchup is incredibly grindy, and you'll probably find the lands in time for them to do work. Literally, the matchup takes forever. Just adopt the control mindset and you should be fine -- think of it like when playing vs combo. You have the better lategame -- they are the beatdown. Just remove as many of their options as you can...prison them out until they die to your superior card quality.

God I love being able to say that when not running blue.

[Justin]

Green Sun's Zenith is another really good card against Miracle. It allows you to fetch back those important green creatures that your opponent put at the bottom of your deck with Terminus and Clique. It also gets around Counterbalance, which they should side out against you anyway. Nic Fit is just loaded with good cards in this matchup, but you can maximize your chances by running more Top.

[Qweerios]

I think Miracle is unfavorable by a long margin. In this matchup, we have no choice but to attempt to be a control deck, however, in the end they always get the last word (because controling the stack is much more important than the board against ctrl). From the testing I did against Miracle, don't side in targeted discard against them, it doesn't work in the long run because they operate with the top of their deck. Extirpate is key in this MU as a split second shuffler and win-con hoser. Having a Negate in your top3 with a Top in play is also very powerful against UW Miracle and UWb Miracle.

On unrelated news, I have finished my testing with BUG Fit and found satisfaction in a particular list. I will play it tonight at a local event and bring you the news.

[Star|Scream]

I think Miracle is unfavorable by a long margin. In this matchup, we have no choice but to attempt to be a control deck, however, in the end they always get the last word (because controling the stack is much more important than the board against ctrl). From the testing I did against Miracle, don't side in targeted discard against them, it doesn't work in the long run because they operate with the top of their deck. Extirpate is key in this MU as a split second shuffler and win-con hoser. Having a Negate in your top3 with a Top in play is also very powerful against UW Miracle and UWb Miracle.

On unrelated news, I have finished my testing with BUG Fit and found satisfaction in a particular list. I will play it tonight at a local event and bring you the news.

yay!

[CRich3]

Has anyone tested Desciple of Bolas? He looks pretty interesting in here. My deck is slowly becoming more BG but I can't bring myself to take out white because Academy Rector and Sun Titan are just to powerful.

[Megadeus]

Has anyone tested Desciple of Bolas? He looks pretty interesting in here. My deck is slowly becoming more BG but I can't bring myself to take out white because Academy Rector and Sun Titan are just to powerful.

I'll probably be testing him as a one of tomorrow night

[Qweerios]

Well that went well, I took first place with my latest BuG Fit:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw

Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Gifts Ungiven

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Darkblast


R1 against Reanimator, 2-1:
G1: I have Karakas and 2 GSZ in my opener. I bounce a Reanimated Griselbrand and Ooze seals it.

-4 Deed -2 Lily -1 Shriek -1 Thrun +4 Thoughtseize +2 Extirpate +2 Faeries

G2: My explorer gets Forced and Iona on black gets reanimated. I am 1 turn away from racing my opponent with a witness but I am missing a land for Thragtusk. I end up GSZing for Oracle and tell my opponent to pick a card in my deck to flip. It isn't Karakas so I lose. Close game overall despite no GY hate.

G3: I have Karakas in my opener again. Karakas gets Needled, then Show n Tell on Angel of Despair/Prime Titan, destroying my Titan but leaving me with Volrath Tower. Innocent blood + recurring Macabre seals it.

R2 against Esper Tez/Thopter control, 2-0:
G1: Deed on Foundry + SotM + Bridge, then Gift for Wasteland/Loam/Witness/Volrath. I wastelock my opponent and beat with Thrun.

-2 Blood -1 Shriek -1 Karakas +2 Extirpate +2 Thoughtseize

G2: Double Therapy + Explorer (3 Therapies) rips O-ring and Tez from my opponent's hand leaving him with a Bridge and a bunch of lands (the Artifact recursion one that I forgot the name). I draw a Gifts and grab Witness, Pulse, Loam, and Volrath (I am holding Wasteland and have Tower in play). My opponent Enlightened Tutors for a Tormod's Crypt so I Extirpate his Tez during his upkeep. Liliana and Thrun that I dredge while wastelocking get there while I recur Pulse every turn.

R3 against UR Delver, 2-0:

G1: I blind Therapy a bolt, pop explorer, GSZ for an Ooze buying me enough time to draw into Thragtusk and end it.

-1 Prime Titan -1 Karakas -1 Waste -1 LftL +1 Finks +1 Vapors +1 Darkblast +1 Negate

G2: I play an Explorer, GSZ another, play an Oracle and Wish for Witness, Ooze, Finks, and Thragtusk before laying down a Volrath.

R4 against Death and Taxes, 2-1:

G1: I keep an opener with a single Bayou and 2 Explorers and a Top knowing full-well that I am up against DnT with Leonin Arbiters. I draw into an Udg Sea and 2 Fetches but my opponent double wastes me and lands an Arbiter against my 2 Explorers and my 2 fetches. My opponent starts building up the pressure while I struggle to build my mana base. I eventually die to a Jitte'd Avenger and Karakas/Mangara when I reach my 4th land.

-1 Prime -1 Ooze +1 Darkblast +1 Vapors

G2: I Therapy 3 StP from my opponent's hand and Therapy/Explorer some more on his threats, leaving him with a Jitte and a SoLS. I Pop a Deed and reveal play 2 GSZ, making my opponent scoop.

G3: I open up with a Top and a basic Island. My opponent Enlightened Tutors for a Revoker at the end of his turn, attempting to shut down my Top. I Darkblast it EoT and my opponent sighs. A couple of Explorers later, my opponent has an Arbiter in his hand and an Avenger equiped with SoLS ready to trigger on the next turn. I Top into a Gift grabing Volrath, Liliana, Blood, and Vapors with a Forest, a Swamp, a Bayou open and a LftL in my GY. Considering I had not played a land this turn, the pile was impossible to disrupt in order for the SoLS to connect. I end up playing the Volrath and casting the Blood, bringing back Witness on top at EoT. Soon after my opponent faces a Vapor loop and concedes while I beat with Witness and Thrun.

[Cire_dk]

Gratz on the win. Thanks for the nice report.
How difficult is it to get the gift piles right?

[jbone2016]

The List: (still working on getting duals)
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Wood Elves
3x Academy Rector
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters

1x Lililana of the Veil
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Sensei's Divining Top

1x Eladamri's Call
1x Swords to Plowshares

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Bayou
2x Overgrown tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Treetop Village

//SB
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Extirpate
1x Perish
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold
2x Memoricide
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Faerie Macabre
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Thoughtseize
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Engingeered Plague

The Results (4-4): I can't see to find my notes, so my memory is a little fuzzy.
Round 1: Villalobos, Ernie (Budget Reanimator)
Ernie was a fairly new to legacy so he had some unusual cards for a reanimator deck.
Flayer of the hatebound and Avatar of Discord seems to stand out.
First turn, ritual, then avatar. Discarding a ghoultree and something else.
I end up ramping with explore after chumping, get an angel and elspeth. and jump the angel to win. Game 2: in: Extirpate, Faerie Macabre out: no idea
I ramp out, discard the flayer, extirpate and with sun titan/witness hijinks.
(1-0)
Round 2: Dixon, Kelsey (u/w miracle control stoneblade) Table 1!
He gets down a early stoneforge and gets a batterskull. Then top/counterbalance come out. I land a rector and flashback therapy to get fetters out so I don't die to the now jitted up mystic. He ends up countering a ton of my stuff, including a sun titan. I die to my own arena with a jace on 13. Game 2 is a grind and I can't seem to get any action to get a draw.
(1-1)
Round 3: Donnie Peck (Merfolk)
Game 1: I ramp out early, get thragtusk and recurring nightmare after a board wipe and he scoops. Game 2: Lots of early pressure for him and I can't seem to find a board wipe. Game 3:Gets a trinket mage for relic to shut off my nightmare/tusk hijinks. I end up getting a rector with a call, play it, sac it to tower....and get a plague instead of a deed. I die shortly afterwards. Urgh.
(1-2)
Round 4: David Marker (Bant goodstuff)
Interesting homebrew. Goyf, delver, jace, tops, mishra's factory. Fairly epic game. I have a huge card draw advantage with top and arena. After trading blow with him, he is down to 2...but has a Jace ticking up. I have a witness with stronghold out and getting trying to kill him but witness keeps dying...but getting back a pulse/vindicate. My pulse on Jace gets flusterstormed! (needed one more mana, doh)...He topdecks 3 goyf in a row to not die. I kept pulsing the goyf and the jace (dumb). I zenith for one to get the last point with another explorer. He ultimates jace. I have one card in my library...with an arena...but with a stronghold. Stronghold for witness/vindicate a blocker. Kill for exacties, no cards in library and turn 3 in game 1...Crazy. and lots of misplays by me
(2-2)
Round 5: Mike Mccay. (Merfolk)
Game 1: Lots of early damage and I'm on the back foot chumping and ramping....I deed once with elspeth out. I'm dead on board....and I draw...witness. gets back deed. blow deed for 2. Get thragtusk and ride angel to victory.
Game 2: Get an early carpet and ride the mana to titan/deed lock.
(3-2)
Round 6: Kevin Hunt (Mono-black Pox)
Game 1: I therapy him and see smallpox x2, hymn, pox, sinkhole and I'm like....land destruction...ha! We both rampout and quick and get hellbent. He gets a Lily and a cursed scroll. I get an arena out, then rector for a fetters to shut off lily at 6 or 7. I get a deed to kill the scroll/crucible. Tusk and friends win.
Game 2: He starts beating down with bloodghast, I keep chumping with explorer and rector, getting an arena and then a leyline. Win with angel.
(4-2)
Round 7: Jeff Hoogland (Deadguy Ale)
I've talked to Jeff a bit at different events and we have a good chat before the match.
Game 1: I keep a top, explorer, but no green mana/fetch. I never get going before the mystic/bob/lilana bash me in.
Game 2: I ended ramping a little but 2 hymns wreck my hand.
(4-3)
Round 8: Kyle Stoll (Elves) Another Mpls player.
Game 1: A early therapy revealed elves. Early ramping brought the deed out. And titan brought it back.
Game 2: Quick ramp worked out...except he comboed out with ezuri when I had a deed in hand.
Game 3: I ended up rectoring for a plague...then a curse. He gets a pridemage, then an archdruid. I get a call....and go for...witness for the plague...when I should have gone for rector, sac it(had a tower) for deed and blow the world up. I die next turn instead.
(4-4). All the people I lost to end up in the money. Oh well.

Thoughts:
Maindeck:
Lily was underwhelming. With arena/stronghold she is good but eh. Call was awesome. Usually grabbing a rector or titan. Treetop was lame. Another tower would be better. Kokopuffs didn't do much. Sigarda is probably better. Maybe a thrun instead of the empath then. Swords...eh. I'm thinking about using ghastly demise instead. Killing your own explorer for profit. Bob seems to be the only black creature I'm really scared of.
SB:
Didn't play any combo so a lot of the SB wasn't too used much. Mostly carpet vs blue.

Wow...this is long.

[Qweerios]

It can be really tricky at times as there is always more thinking involved in a pile than you'd expect. It all depends on what you have in your hand/GY/play and what your opponent is capable/incapable of doing. Reactive piles are by far the most difficult but overall it almost always revolves around Loam/Witness + Lands.

[HoneyT]

Full Kansas City report is up! Check it out!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24470-Throwing-Fits-at-SCG-Kansas-City-A-28th-Place-Report

[Claymore]

I draw a Gifts and grab Witness, Pulse, Loam, and Volrath (I am holding Wasteland and have Tower in play). My opponent Enlightened Tutors for a Tormod's Crypt so I Extirpate his Tez during his upkeep. Liliana and Thrun that I dredge while wastelocking get there while I recur Pulse every turn.

I feel dirty just reading that.

As far as Disciple, I don't see him being of use. He's an interesting engine for sure, but is 4cc and requires being set up with a sacrificial creature in play and a means to abuse him...and our sacrificial creatures generally only have 1-2 power so you're either at zero card advantage or +1 card. If you run a bunch of Finks it might be worth it since you get up to 3 cards, the Finks will persist (maybe), and you've refueled considerably. He leaves you with just a 2/1 body in play. Interesting Nightmare loops could work, but might require even more work because of his sacrifice ability and would eventually come out to be a win-more engine.

Overall I think there are better uses for his slot.

[Arianrhod]

@CRich -- Disciple of Bolas just seems bad for this. The only chunky creatures we have, we aren't going to want to sac, other than Kokusho. Using him to sac an Explorer or a Rector just seems poor. 4 mana for a 1/1 that draws a card and gains a life? Ew.

@Qweerios -- glad you've got something that's working for you. List looks pretty solid. What influenced your decision to keep Liliana in? I know you were talking about cutting here a few pages back. How was Consuming Vapors? I know we tried it like twenty or thirty pages ago, but it was fairly mediocre then. Has the meta improved for it?

@jbone -- sounds like you had pretty good matchups, but I read an awful lot of the word "misplay" in that post. Sad =(

How was the sideboard? It looks like something of a clusterfuck -- a lot of untutorable 1-ofs, only one Carpet of Flowers (one of the white version's strongest cards in general), only one Extirpate, etc.

How was Eladrami's Call? Specifically, would you have been happier to have it as a Diabolic Intent?

Why no Sigarda?

Guessing Wood Elves was terrible. Despite my best efforts, it seems that Wood Elves is only actually good in the red version. Can't really figure out why.

The only issue with Ghastly Demise is that it's reliant on the graveyard, and a lot of decks will be boarding in Crypt/Relic vs you anyway. Swords is still the best at what it does, although it can't sac Explorer. A 2nd Phy Tower will do a world of help there.

Volrath's Stronghold is useless if you're running Nightmare. I'd cut that pretty much immediately, unless there's a lot of like Painter or something like that in your meta, where you need to have the Stronghold.

I'll reiterate for the eleventy-millioneth time that Kokusho isn't supposed to do much, but when he does something, he'll win you games you can't otherwise win. Really surprised he didn't happen in the Bant game...the really uber-long grindy games are where he's usually an allstar.

Seems like overall it did well for you, though =)

@HoneyT -- TUSK.

This is more Qweerios's area (looks a lot like his last G/B list, actually), but I'll try anyway.

How were the two Hymns? Did you want more or less?

Seems like you boarded Wickerbough out an awful lot. Maybe he'd be better in the sideboard?

How was the 1x Liliana?

Assuming availability isn't an issue, why did you select Nic Fit / GB, in specific?

Looking forward to seeing xDavisx in the thread, hopefully. Was he playing the deck in the event, or just looking to build it? If he was playing it, how was he doing/what version was he playing?

Why do you think you have so much trouble with Stoneblade? Something inherent in the matchup, bad luck, something that can be fixed with sideboard, etc?

Grats on your finish =) Nic Fit's been doing really well this month -- if we keep it up the rest of the month we might get back into Decks to Beat. I think that we're pretty well situated in the meta right now, and I also think some of us in the thread have been playing the archetype long enough now that we're actually finally mastering it, so we're able to start fielding better performances in absence of professional pilots.

Good stuff.

[PollePotDK]

@Arianrhod: Don't you ever have problems with fast aggro decks such as Goblins (turn 1 Lackey) or a turn 1 Delver, worst case on the draw?

Thinking of foiling out my Nic Fit (GBw), BUT some cards can't be acquired in foil, right? Because I can't find Explorer in foil. From which serie, did WotC start with foils?

Lastly, is there anything "illegal" tournamentwise, if your deck isn't completely foiled out?

Hope you understand my bad english :-)

/PollePotDK

[bruizar]

Urza's Legacy was the first foil set. Its not illegal as long as there is no pattern in it (for example, therapies non foil, 56 others foil). also, play double sleeve and keep the deck away from temperature changes so the cards dont warp.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: Don't you ever have problems with fast aggro decks such as Goblins (turn 1 Lackey) or a turn 1 Delver, worst case on the draw?

Thinking of foiling out my Nic Fit (GBw), BUT some cards can't be acquired in foil, right? Because I can't find Explorer in foil. From which serie, did WotC start with foils?

Lastly, is there anything "illegal" tournamentwise, if your deck isn't completely foiled out?

Hope you understand my bad english :-)

/PollePotDK

Nah, your English is fine.

Bruizar pretty much nailed it, but I'll add a few things. I've actually completely foiled my Rector build out at this point (less a few sideboard options / the floater spot that I still haven't narrowed down), and I'm slowly working on upgrading to japfoil.

Basically, I've got the following:

Nonfoil:
Explorers, Towers, duals, basics (I opted for Guru instead of foil), Moat, some sideboard ie Chains, Carpets, etc.

Foil:
Everything else =P

This leaves me with 2/3 of the maindeck foiled, to 1/3 nonfoil. I got deck checked at GP Atlanta, and it cleared just fine.

As far as foil warpage goes, there isn't much you can do about that, sadly. I know both of my Elspeths are especially bad, and my Baneslayers were pretty bad too. Before any major event where there will be deck checks, I lay out the entire deck, flat on a table. Then I see which cards are noticeably more warped than the others, take those cards, and put a lot of heavy books on top of them. This usually flattens them out nicely. I try to do that every few months anyway, just on principle, but sometimes I forget until the warp gets really bad. Just something we have to live with, I fear. Double sleeving helps, but it's not going to solve the problem completely.

As for the fast aggro starts -- it depends on my hand. If I have Explorer/Therapy, I can keep up no problem. If I don't, then I can have some trouble, yeah. The Rector version is also built to be really good at stabilizing, so I can afford to take a few early hits if I have to.

[Alexeezay]

I try to pimp my Wood Elves. What is better, 9thRussian signed, 8th jap. foil or 7th ger/eng foil? :DD

[bruizar]

I try to pimp my Wood Elves. What is better, 9thRussian signed, 8th jap. foil or 7th ger/eng foil? :DD

7th foil, always. It's the beta of foil


Rule of the pimp:
beta is the beta of beta
portal 3 kingdoms and edgar = the beta of whiteborders
7th is the beta of foils

[Arianrhod]

Totally 7th German foil, at least from my perspective. I'm trying to get each of the three versions I have built pimped in a different language....red's language is of course German, because it sounds angry =D

Christopher Moeller's signature is awesome, though -- my foil Deeds are all signed by him. They look shweet.

[Fropper]

Complete German Nic Fit is most pimp :wink:

(Pics are old and show an outdated version, last pic are additional cards I had at the time to modify the deck)

http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md1_1600knave.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md1_1600knave.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md2_1600w8aj2.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md2_1600w8aj2.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md3_160099aho.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md3_160099aho.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md4_16001px4y.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md4_16001px4y.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md5_1600eylno.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md5_1600eylno.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_md6_1600z2y9y.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_md6_1600z2y9y.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_sb1_1600x7x6q.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_sb1_1600x7x6q.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_sb2_1600a7zrg.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_sb2_1600a7zrg.jpg) http://www.abload.de/thumb/nicfit_x_1600p0l24.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=nicfit_x_1600p0l24.jpg)

[Claymore]

I think the answer to UW Miracles is clearly to throw in some copies of Terminus and have them floating on the top of our deck (via Sensei's Top) and counter their miracle with our own miracle ;)

[Qweerios]

I kept Liliana in because, well, she's Liliana. I even played 4 copies at one point and I'd go as far as making her a part of the core of Nic Fit because Deeds + Planeswalkers are just too good. Wipe the board and put both players in top-deck mode. Now if I have a Lily or a Top on board, I am heavily favored to win.

Vapors is supposed to be Damnation, I just traded them away for some reason. It gives me another SB option against Sligh however.

While tinkering with the blue splash for a couple of weeks, I was pressed with deck space and had to review the "core" of the deck. Here is what I concluded as a template for my lists:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Tower

So far, no contest there, this seems to be the consensus. However, I happen to believe that the following are also part of the core while others appear to disagree:

4 Green Sun's Zenith,
The most versatile card in this deck, period. There is no excuse for running less than 4 since it counts as our Explorer #5-8, a Witness Tutor, and a lategame threat. A Nic Fit deck that doesn't support a good GSZ package is not a good one in my book. I tested multiple iterations with less than 4 and the deck began to fall appart.

4 Pernicious Deed,
The #1 reason why Nic Fit was ever a DTB. The fact that we can Deed at will with literally no drawback is why we can hose every board-dependant deck in the format. You want it in every MU except Combo (but thats everybody's concern). If you have room for Pulse, then you have room for the 4th Deed.

1 Scavenging Ooze,
Never leave home without it. It may not have the best synergy with the rest of the deck but it will single-handedly deal with any GY dependant decks. Ooze also gives you an out against opposing GY recursion. A very important source of life gain against red decks as well. Overall, a Legacy predator...

That's about it for the core. There are other cards that I heavily favor such as Liliana, Innocent Blood, and Volrath's Stronghold for instance but building a viable Nic Fit deck without them is possible.

EDIT: Oh yeah, everybody seems to have a pimped out Nic Fit deck. Mine is only half foil (cheaper cards) but I do have the most beautiful collection of altered duals on the planet.

[Arianrhod]

Ooh, you should post them [the duals] in the pimp thread. I'd like to see =D

I'm considering bumping up to 4 GSZ in the Rector list, actually. That slot is currently a Diabolic Intent, just because I like having ways to get Baneslayer and Rector (or anything else), but that's marginal benefit compared to the overall strength of Green Sun. Very much on the fence about that still.

I think I agree as far as Deed goes, with the exception of the Rector build. The Rector build can run Moat, which sort of takes the place of the 4th Deed IMO. The Deed can sometimes be stronger, but so can the Moat (ie, Progenitus, most of MUD, etc).

I still don't like Ooze. I'm not going to reiterate my reasoning, I've been over it enough times already. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

[HoneyT]

@Arianrhod -- TUSK!!!

The Hymns were great all day. Did a lot of testing recently with them. Two was a good number. They were very good in getting the last couple cards in the midgame and are obviously insane when you have it in the opener with Explorer/Therapy. I didn't want to see any in the late game though. Two was relevant. Although I obviously would only play them in the straight G/B version. I think it's the best card in Legacy nobody is playing right now.

I don't think Wickerbough is worth a sideboard slot. He does get boarded out a bit, but it's matchup dependant. Something different usually comes in. But I definitely want access to him via GSZ for some matchups. He's not a totally dead draw even in game one if I don't want him, as he's still a body.

The one of Lily was just fine. I like her ability to lock out games against certain decks, but I don't want multiples since this deck isn't built specifically to abuse her. She's super solid though. I think one is a good number.

Availibility wasn't an issue at all. (Ok I guess I don't have a Moat) I just chose this version because I feel it is solid against a wide open field and I know how to pilot it proficiently. I wanted a more rock-solid mana base. The tri-colored versions, while still powerful, are more likely to randomly lose some games due to mana screw via Wasteland or just drawing the wrong basics. There is no such problem in this deck. Also, I wanted access to Treetops and Big Papa Garruk because I expected Stoneblade and Miracles decks to be popular.

xDavisx was playing Jund Nic Fit with a couple Bolts, Terminates, Huntmasters and a Broodmate

I don't usually have to many problems with Stoneblade with this build. Garruk, Thrun, and Treetops are insane in those matchups. Against the first player, he nut drew me game 1. Had all the answers and I was on a rough mull to 5 in game 2. So a little bit of bad luck/variance there. I'm very confident against the Esperblade pilot, that if given time to finish our match, I would have won.

However, if one really wants to crush Stoneblade, I really recommend P-fire Nic Fit.

Hope that answers your questions!!

[Megadeus]

Played Jund Punishing Nic Fit tonight. Went 2-0-2 in the Swiss due to a draw with my buddy playing Maverick, and an ID in the fourth round to make top 8. It played well, but a bit awkward at times... May have to rework my mana base a bit.

Round 1: RUG Delver

Game 1 I smash him under constant removal spells until my grave Titan type bomb stuff takes over. Game 2 he has double Delver on turn 2 and rides them to victory. Game 3 I disrupt, kill, and then beat him with a huntmaster.

2-1 1-0

Game 2: UW Jotun Grunt Ninjitsu stuff?

Both games 1 and 2 I stop his few creatures despite his orim chants keeping me off of early spells, then beat him with huntmaster both games.

2-0 2-0

Game 3: Maverick

Game 1 he stocks up the field and I deed it all away, then he just gets better top decks than me. The key I think is he killed me sensei's top when I tried to hide it after a deed. Game 2 he gets jitte online early, but he doesn't have enough pressure and I deed his board away while I keep up Broodmate beats. Also Punishing Fire combo kills everything. Game 3 we end up going to time, but it was right after I deed the board then play Garruk Primal Hunter. I'm not going to say I would've won, but I had much better presence.

1-1-1 2-0-1

Game 4: ID into top 8

2-0-2

Top 8: RUG Delver

A different player from earlier.

Game 1 he has a stifle for my first fetch, wasteland for my grove, then when I am discarding I discard cabal therapy, but then he has a stifle for my explorer trigger as well. Eventually he draws threats, I never draw a land again even though I have 2 therapies in grave, and an explorer in hand. Game 2 I get an early scavenging ooze against his goyf, but he submerges then forces ooze later. Eventually I punishing fire him low, then kill him with huntmaster and the wolf token then punishing fire him for exactsies. Game 3 is a bit disappointing. I hit blind and with the flashback on therapy, but never can draw a spell to stop his goyf and goose...

It was a good night all in all. Disappointedthat I lost to such a good match up in top 8 though. Could've bought a damnation with that credit!! Again, I had some awkward hands where I had red and green mana but no black mana... Need to rework the mana base to fix that. Also I dropped wickerbough elder for a Thragtusk and Thragtusk was awesome the couple of times I played it. One time I did wish I had wickerbough though as a GSZ target. Might drop Primal Hunter for it. Huntmaster did not disappoint. Also I ran a Consume the Meek as a replacement for Damnation and the only time I drew t it was sweet.

[jbone2016]

@jbone -- sounds like you had pretty good matchups, but I read an awful lot of the word "misplay" in that post. Sad =(



-Still learning to play this version of the deck. Most of my experience was just with g/b or g/b/w.




How was the sideboard? It looks like something of a clusterfuck -- a lot of untutorable 1-ofs, only one Carpet of Flowers (one of the white version's strongest cards in general), only one Extirpate, etc.



-Yeah, more carpets/extirpate would be good. Perish doesn't seem as good when you can't tutor for it. Memoricide seems good against combo at times...but too slow? Probably don't need finks with tusk/angel/kokopuffs. Miser thoughtseize can probably get cut. Wheel seems against loam/dredge.




How was Eladrami's Call? Specifically, would you have been happier to have it as a Diabolic Intent?



-Call seemed pretty good. Instant speed and not having to sac anything was awesome. A One of seems fine with the tops.




Why no Sigarda?



-Never got around to getting one. Seems pretty good. Maybe instead of the 2nd angel?




Guessing Wood Elves was terrible. Despite my best efforts, it seems that Wood Elves is only actually good in the red version. Can't really figure out why.



-Yeah, I wasn't too impressed with him. Ramping doesn't seem to be a problem. I'll probably go back to thrun.




The only issue with Ghastly Demise is that it's reliant on the graveyard, and a lot of decks will be boarding in Crypt/Relic vs you anyway. Swords is still the best at what it does, although it can't sac Explorer. A 2nd Phy Tower will do a world of help there.



-Vendetta, anyone? Swords still seems. Better. Consuming vapors doesn't seem bad against merfolk, however.




Volrath's Stronghold is useless if you're running Nightmare. I'd cut that pretty much immediately, unless there's a lot of like Painter or something like that in your meta, where you need to have the Stronghold.



-Eh, some painter here but more storm then that. Probably another tower instead the village.




I'll reiterate for the eleventy-millioneth time that Kokusho isn't supposed to do much, but when he does something, he'll win you games you can't otherwise win. Really surprised he didn't happen in the Bant game...the really uber-long grindy games are where he's usually an allstar.



-I'm starting to think I want Gaea's revenge.




Seems like overall it did well for you, though =)



-We have a big legacy at a local store on Saturday. My last big tune up before StarCity Mpls. So...garruk primal or relentless?

[Megadeus]

I've played with both (though less with primal) but I have liked primal hunter a bit more for the most part. I generally side both out a decent amount of the time, but Primal Hunters Tokens are a much better clock and drawing three or 4 or sometimes even like 6 is Soooooo good. If your mana base can support GGG I'd say he is generally better.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod
I posted my altered duals collection in the pimp forum like you asked me.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-Bragging-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=665847&posted=1#post665847

[Arianrhod]

Those are gorgeous, Qweerios. I don't think I've ever seen an alter by Poxy that I didn't like, he does great stuff.

Honestly, I don't like either Garruk in the Rector version. Relentless had his day, but now that I understand the deck better, I don't like him anymore. Primal Hunter is fine in G/B (or basically G/B with a very slight splash ie Qweerios BUG), but I wouldn't run him in a true tricolor deck.

Don't forget that usually, when you board in Memoricide, you're also boarding in Carpet of Flowers, which does a really good job of speeding it up a bit. Also, it's meant to be played alongside the Extirpates. The Extirpates and your normal discard do a good job of slowing down your combo opponent, then Memoricide comes in acting as the "bomb," and takes away the cards they actually need to win the game. IE vs High Tide, your usual discard happens, they do some cantrips to sculpt their hand, you Extirpate their cantrips, which slows them down a fair chunk. Then you drop Memoricide, name Time Spiral/Cunning Wish/High Tide (in that order imo), and you win on the spot. They are a little slow, but when paired with other, faster, hate they become absolute killers. They're also useful in the slow grindy control matchups, like Miracles, Deadguy, etc. I've killed my local Deadguy player at least twice by recurring Cranial enough times to literally take every win condition out of his deck.

If you're thinking of putting Thrun in, I'd put Sigarda in that slot. They're basically the same card, except Sigarda is bigger, stops Eldrazi, and has wings.

RE Thrun and Gaea's Revenge - I guess you don't have a Moat, so you don't need to copy my list as closely with the fliers. I've always dismissed both of those cards in the Rector version because of Moat, but if you don't have the access, it's less important.

@Megadeus -- glad things are starting to come along for you =)

[bruizar]

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Tower


Agree with everything except for Phyrexian Tower. Our group tested P. Tower for months and cut it. I think P. Tower opens you up to wasteland which makes the deck less resilient. Also, no way to fetch it.



4 Green Sun's Zenith,

This is core yes.



4 Pernicious Deed,
The #1 reason why Nic Fit was ever a DTB. The fact that we can Deed at will with literally no drawback is why we can hose every board-dependant deck in the format. You want it in every MU except Combo (but thats everybody's concern). If you have room for Pulse, then you have room for the 4th Deed.

I only play 3 Deeds. 4 is overkill in my opinion. You have Eternal Witness to recur it, and 4 GSZ to get Witness.



1 Scavenging Ooze,
Never leave home without it. It may not have the best synergy with the rest of the deck but it will single-handedly deal with any GY dependant decks. Ooze also gives you an out against opposing GY recursion. A very important source of life gain against red decks as well. Overall, a Legacy predator...

Agree



EDIT: Oh yeah, everybody seems to have a pimped out Nic Fit deck. Mine is only half foil (cheaper cards) but I do have the most beautiful collection of altered duals on the planet.
I'll post a photo of my build later when I release the list our group is playing with.

[Cire_dk]

@Qweerios That looks stunning!

@Arianrhod I have a split between surgical extraction and Extirpate bacause I am still not sure which one is better. Split Second is good , but for a pay 2 life spell you do not need any extra mana. I am aware that we run lots of mana. But you can never have enough.
Garruk Primal Hunter has been good for me while testing. I play the rector list without Kokushu but with Sigarda. Would primeval titan or Grave titan be better? I do not play Fierce empath.

This weekend will be my first tournament with a Nic Fit deck. So I will let you all know how things went for me.

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios That looks stunning!

@Arianrhod I have a split between surgical extraction and Extirpate bacause I am still not sure which one is better. Split Second is good , but for a pay 2 life spell you do not need any extra mana. I am aware that we run lots of mana. But you can never have enough.
Garruk Primal Hunter has been good for me while testing. I play the rector list without Kokushu but with Sigarda. Would primeval titan or Grave titan be better? I do not play Fierce empath.

This weekend will be my first tournament with a Nic Fit deck. So I will let you all know how things went for me.

If you're running Recurring Nightmare, I'd say run Grave Titan. If you're not on the Nightmare plan, then you want Primeval Titan -> Two Towers (Stronghold and Phy Tower) to simulate Nightmare. I prefer Nightmare, Qweerios prefers the lands. Up to you which option you choose -- they're both pretty solid, and they both accomplish the same basic thing. TTT lets you skip your draw step, which can be useful vs Jace, Painter, etc. Nightmare can be used as many times in a turn as you have mana, which makes it a good sink lategame. IMO if you're on Rector, you should be on Nightmare, thus Grave Titan. I try to avoid slamming people for experimenting, though, as long as it's within certain parameters. If someone decides to try Panglacial Wurm because we have a lot of mana and we search our deck a lot, I'm going to come down on that so hard, lol. But if you want to try TTT in Rector, go nuts. I don't think it's better, but it's up to you if you want to experiment or go with what's tried and true.

As for Extirpate and Surgical, I used to run triple Surgical a few months ago. But with the rise of Sneak/Show, Extirpate is just straight up better. Vs Sneak, your gameplan is to prison them out. You focus on making it so that they can't win the game, rather than trying to win the game yourself. To that end, extracting (Cranial or Surgical, and their respective counterparts) their creatures (or enablers) is the primary course of action. Sneak likes to run a lot of counters, but they also run Misdirection. You don't really want to Surgical their Scalding Tarns. You want their Emrakuls, dammit. Surgical is better against decks that don't have interaction, because it's free. But the games where you actually want that effect are going to be combo decks, and in legacy, combo decks almost -always- have interaction (Belcher is an obvious exception). Combo in legacy has to protect itself because of the wide range of options within the established card pool that can dick them over. With that in mind, I think that Extirpate is head and shoulders above Surgical. Sure, Surgical is better vs like Maverick for example....but if you're boarding in Surgical against Maverick, you deserve to lose anyway.

[bruizar]

If someone decides to try Panglacial Wurm because we have a lot of mana and we search our deck a lot, I'm going to come down on that so hard, lol.
My next sideboard will run 1 panglacial, mark my words :D

[Megadeus]

I like Grave Titan over Prime Time, but that's just because he stabilizes so hard. And he is so difficult to get rid of. I've also found that the death touch is actually surprisingly relevant especially since it always trades with a huge knight or goyf

[Megadeus]

I may play the Wurm as a one of for the lulz next wednesday

[slikwilly]

If you're running Recurring Nightmare, I'd say run Grave Titan. If you're not on the Nightmare plan, then you want Primeval Titan -> Two Towers (Stronghold and Phy Tower) to simulate Nightmare.

This highlights one of the debates I have am constantly mulling. I'm running a Rector build which I think dictates running Nightmare. Running Nightmare means running Kokopuffs. But Nightmare is also great with Grave Titan. And being in white for Rector makes Sun Titan practically required.

So that means two 6-drops w/ double B and one 6-drop w/ double W. AND you have to be pretty heavy in green to hit the early Explorer.

Grave Titan is always the one I want to cut, but I never can bring myself to do it because the tokens and deathtouch are too good.

FWIW, I also run 2x Phyrexian Tower and 1x Volrath's Stronghold. That Stronghold has saved my bacon a couple times. (That probably has more to do w/ not using a Therapy to see if the coast is clear to cast Nightmare than anything else though.)

[Claymore]

By the time you get to 6 mana, you should easily have either WW or BB available, if not both - I usually have both.

[Viridia]

I'm not a fan of running that many 6-drops at all.
I only ran 3 5-drops (Sigarda +2x Baneslayer) and 1 Kokusho, aswell as 2 Elspeth and Moat as the only other cards that need double mana costs, which means you alwasy get WW first in the early/mid game and you will get BB somewhere in the late-game for Kokusho loops.

[Arianrhod]

This highlights one of the debates I have am constantly mulling. I'm running a Rector build which I think dictates running Nightmare. Running Nightmare means running Kokopuffs. But Nightmare is also great with Grave Titan. And being in white for Rector makes Sun Titan practically required.

So that means two 6-drops w/ double B and one 6-drop w/ double W. AND you have to be pretty heavy in green to hit the early Explorer.

Grave Titan is always the one I want to cut, but I never can bring myself to do it because the tokens and deathtouch are too good.

FWIW, I also run 2x Phyrexian Tower and 1x Volrath's Stronghold. That Stronghold has saved my bacon a couple times. (That probably has more to do w/ not using a Therapy to see if the coast is clear to cast Nightmare than anything else though.)

The colors shouldn't usually be a problem in this deck. Is the Stronghold a 23rd land, or is it taking the place of a color producer? I guess it'd be easiest for you to just post your mana base, actually.

I ran 3 6-drops some number of months ago, and it was too clunky, so I cut Yosei, leaving Sun Titan and Kokusho. If you're running Moat, IMO you need Kokusho. If you aren't running Moat, you can make a solid argument for running Grave Titan instead. It all hinges on Moat or no Moat...that determines a lot of core decisions for the deck.

[from Cairo]

This highlights one of the debates I have am constantly mulling. I'm running a Rector build which I think dictates running Nightmare. Running Nightmare means running Kokopuffs. But Nightmare is also great with Grave Titan. And being in white for Rector makes Sun Titan practically required.

So that means two 6-drops w/ double B and one 6-drop w/ double W. AND you have to be pretty heavy in green to hit the early Explorer.

Grave Titan is always the one I want to cut, but I never can bring myself to do it because the tokens and deathtouch are too good.

I'd agree Grave Titan is the weakest of the 3 in a Rector build. Sun Titan will be recurring something with higher impact than 2 Zombies and with Rector into Nightmare, Kokusho provides a way to seal a kill outside the combat step.

I can see not wanting to cut Grave Titan though it is a great means to clog the ground up against agro, especially I one's list doesn't feature Moat to fill that role.


FWIW, I also run 2x Phyrexian Tower and 1x Volrath's Stronghold. That Stronghold has saved my bacon a couple times. (That probably has more to do w/ not using a Therapy to see if the coast is clear to cast Nightmare than anything else though.)

I think the deck can afford 3 colorless sources in a 22 land build, so long as you keep your mana curve reasonable and especially take into account your early stabilizers' mana costs. I have really liked 2 PTowers and a Stronghold as well.

[slikwilly]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Academy Rector
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath

1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Phyrexian Arena
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Innocent Blood
1 Vindicate

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrublands
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold


That's my most recent list. Trying to get a Moat (anyone want to trade a Moat for a Tabernacle ;) ) since Goblins have been trouble for me.

Also looking to get a Sigarda and/or Baneslayer in there. Probably dropping 1 Pulse, 1-2 of the Plowshares, E-tutor, maybe the Entreat. (Entreat has been sweet more often than not, but it sucks pretty bad when it's not.) Another Witness would be nice too. Too many cards, too few slots.

Last time out w/ this list I beat Belcher (lucky), and UR Delver. Lost to Reanimator/S&T and Burn (sided out Pridemage, he sided in Vortex. File that one under: things not to do. Sigh).

[from Cairo]

I would definitely drop Entreat. Nic Fit has plenty of broken things to do in the late game as it is and w/o Brainstorm or Liliana it's a brick in your hand if you see it in the first 10 cards or so.

I would use the slot to get a 2nd Eternal Witness into the main.

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, can Entreat. It isn't that good in this deck. I'd also drop one of your 6's for a 3rd Top, and the Horizon Canopy for a 2nd Savannah.

========

Now, for something totally different.

I had a thought last night, as I was looking over my sideboard for an event this weekend. Everything the deck does can be classified into one of three categories: Hooks, Needles, and Engines.

Vs High Tide is the clearest example.

The deck runs two primary tutor packages (GSZ and Rector), as well as a host of spells alongside. These packages can get Engines, like Nightmare, Arena, Veteran Explorers, Eternal Witnesses, and so on. But they can also get Hooks -- dedicated, ludicrously powerful cards that stop certain strategies cold, but are rarely seen due to their mana cost.

The way I broke it down is such:

High Tide Hooks
Rector: Nether Void
GSZ: Ichneumon Druid
Spell: Cranial Extraction, Memoricide, Tsunami

High Tide Needles
Extirpate, Aven Mindcensor,

High Tide Engines
Carpet of Flowers

Hooks are the death blows, the atomic bombs. They're what the opposing deck can't possibly answer. While Chains of Mephistopheles gets close, I'm slowly realizing that Nether Void is actually the Rector target I want for storm combo. They can't beat it literally ever, whereas Storm can, sometimes, painfully, get around Chains. If I set a Rector off, I want the most broken enchantment with it that I can possibly get. A well-aimed Cranial Extraction or Memoricide serves the same function. Unfortunately we don't have an amazing GSZ target in this regard....Ichneumon is pretty good, but he's going to get EoT bounced unless there's other hate backing him up. He's about the best GSZ has got, though. I don't count Teeg because our other Hooks cost 4 and are not creatures, and their power level is higher overall than Teeg.

Needles are the little annoying things that aren't death knells for our opponent, but will slow him down and, if left unchecked, grievously injure him. Extirpating all of High Tide's cantrips or tutors is going to leave them still functional, but a lot more likely to whiff. Mindcensor on a fetchland or a Merchant Scroll can likewise make them stumble. These are the cards that are designed to buy us some time while the Hooks get set up.

Engines are the other stuff, the cards that make the deck work. Specific anti-High Tide Engines would include Carpet of Flowers, but I would also lump Eternal Witness and Phyrexian Arena into this category, as they help recur or draw into more Hooks and Needles.

Examples of Hooks for Sneak/Show:

Rector: Humility
GSZ: Willow Satyr
Spell: Cranial, Memoricide, Extirpate

Miracles:

Rector: Raking Canopy
GSZ: TUSK
Spell: Cranial, Memoricide, Tsunami

Goblins:

Rector: Moat
GSZ: N/A [Maybe Empath->Titan]
Spell: Wrath of God / Damnation / Terminus

And so on.

This last example brings me to an interesting point, by the by -- have we ever considered running Terminus ourselves? We've focused a lot on using TUSK defensively against other players' Terminus, but it seems to me we could go the other way with it, too. Wrath their board and be left with a 3/3? Seems decent. I dunno, it's something to think about.

TL;DR we should try to take the paradigm of the silver bullet a little further. We can run not just "a" silver bullet, but the "perfect" silver bullet, due to our unique tutoring and mana generative capabilities. What are some other good Hooks and Needles?

[Claymore]

Angel's Grace will help slow Hive Mind. Sudden Spoiling can help slow Sneak Attack. Both could potentially be recycled with Volrath/Nightmare + Eternal Witness.

Gaddock Teeg will serve as a Needle for several decks, including Show and Tell (stop Sneak Attack), Hive Mind (Hive Mind), UW Miracles (Jace, Entreat, Terminus)

Curse of Death's Hold serves as a Hook and kills Death and Taxes, Elves, and maybe Goblins.

Grave Pact can be a Hook or Needle against opposing Nic Fit decks, depending on your board.

For more traditional hate, Leyline of Sanctity can slow Pox and Burn, and builds with Primeval Titan can use Karakas to fight Sneak Attack.

As far as Terminus, I've played an x1 of it for fun but never really found it useful. I think it has to be run in the 2-3 range, and then you have to consider how often it will be used since you'll likely draw it and have some board presence that you don't want to throw away. Killing your own Thragtusk might not be for the best.

---

Not to change thread course off of the Hooks and Needles, but would a disruption-heavy GB Nic Fit be better than Rector Fit for a Show and Tell heavy meta? Something with 4 Therapy, 2-4 Hymn, 2-4 1cc Discard, 2-4 Liliana for disruption. Basically I have consistent showings for Sneak Show, Dream Halls, and Hive Mind (also running Show and Tell) who have placed 1-2-3 in the last several tournaments. On top of this I'll have some aggro, enchantress, and burn to deal with.

[Megadeus]

The Sideboard needs to be prepared to beat combo. I ran 4 therapy, 2 hymn, 2 Liliana, and a one of inquisition, and still ha trouble even after board. Not as bad vs reanimator thanks to leylines, but SnT can still be an issue

[bruizar]

Dovescape I like this card a lot against combo. GSZ for all your mana -> Zerg. It's a catch all against storm decks and Sneak Attack/SNT because:

Sneak Attack can get 3 or 4 birds from their sneak/snt, but won't ever have the mana to cast emrakul or griselbrand.
Storm decks typically run low CC spells in order to avoid dying to Ad Nauseam. Past in Flames is their only high CC spell and they can only get there with rituals, but rituals only make birds :)
Spiral Tide has plenty of spells, and a bunch of them with high CC (Turnabout, Time Spiral). Luckily, they can't counter anything with Force of Will, or they'd get 5 birds. You should survive this though, you have GSZ to zerg and actual creatures such as Thragtusk

I think it's better than Nethervoid / Humility because you are diluting sideboard space by using a split.

[Megadeus]

In a Punishing fire build how many groves should I run? Right now I have been running three

[Star|Scream]

Agree with everything except for Phyrexian Tower. Our group tested P. Tower for months and cut it. I think P. Tower opens you up to wasteland which makes the deck less resilient. Also, no way to fetch it.


This is core yes.


I only play 3 Deeds. 4 is overkill in my opinion. You have Eternal Witness to recur it, and 4 GSZ to get Witness.



I think I get what Qweerios is saying about dropping 1 Pulse for the 4th deed. Against the most aggressive creatures in the format (flipped delvers, goblin tokens, and to some extent zombie tokens) a pulse and a deed are virtually identical. While Pulse is better at hitting midrange creatures (and fatties) before turn 4, once you have 6-7 mana, deed becomes much much better.

[Claymore]

Did a few quick games with a GB and didn't like that it failed so much, so sticking with GBw.

I actually like Dovescape. Quirky, high CC enchantment that plays well with a few of our high CC spells and lets the likes of Sun Titan still do its thing. Seals the deal against combo decks if Rector can push it out fast enough.

I'm not sure if I like it strictly replacing Humility vs Show and Tell because there are situations where you need to deal an incoming Eldrazi or Griselbrand, and it does not do well if it comes down late with Sneak Attack on board already.

[bruizar]

I think I get what Qweerios is saying about dropping 1 Pulse for the 4th deed. Against the most aggressive creatures in the format (flipped delvers, goblin tokens, and to some extent zombie tokens) a pulse and a deed are virtually identical. While Pulse is better at hitting midrange creatures (and fatties) before turn 4, once you have 6-7 mana, deed becomes much much better.

I personally rather use Crime // Punishment over Maelstrom Pulse, but I'm currently running neither. Crime has synergy with Pernicious Deed and with Punishment, can make Green Sun's Zenith for Eternal Witness a rather swingy play, depending on what you blew up.

[mossivo1986]

I'd like to talk alittle more about the Jund version.

Are there any engines that can be introduced to the deck?

Can you breakdown the current board, on why you selected those specific choices?

The manabase feels shaky. Why are fetches not an option?

[HoneyT]

@Claymore: Give my most recent GB a try. The list can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...h-Place-Report

I have few problems with combo especially post-board. Just learn the key cards in each matchup and make wise mulliganing decisions and you should be fine.

@Megadeus: I run 3 in my P-Fire build and am happy with that number.

@mossivo1986: You can run fetches in the Jund version. They're perfectly acceptable in Punishing Fire or regular Jund builds, but less good in Valakut builds

@Everybody onboard with Dovescape: We're trying to take away their win-con and prison them out, not try and let them have a different one. Play more high impact cards that are good and actually castable i.e. Chains of Mephistopheles, Nether Void, Humility etc.

We don't need to be cute, we need to win.

[bruizar]

Honeyt: that's almost a third of your sideboard gone to enchantments with only 2 rectors in the deck. I get that you want to win, and yes, sometimelossy can still lose with d.scape in play. However d.scape is more widely applicable across all combo matchups ( except elves).

Nether void can simply be answered. It has terrible synergy with veteran explorer. Eot bounce, combo, done. Try getting out of a doves cape.

Being cute (using expensive legends rares for pimpness) doesn't mean you should fill your sideboard with so many different sliver bullets. I'd rather fill the rest of my sideboard with cards that are actually good against the matchup, like hymn to tourach.

Don't forget u also need a gsz silver bullet pack so it needs to be as condensed as possible. If d.scapr gets the job done, then it's fine. If you find yourself getting raced (hard to believe imo) by birds, then maybe you want something more specialized. I just don't see how a tendrils deck can put you into a losing position with LEDs, chrome moxeN petalsn and a bunch of rituals. I'm not afraid of a deck filled with blanks and scryb sprites.

Against omniscience combo, what do you do? Humility for Griselbrand making your clock suck so they get enough time to petals of insight you for infinite? Nether void sure doesn't work against snt (you run explorers). Chains is nice, but doesn't answer Griselbrand (7/7 flying lifelink) will swing for 14. Do escape shuts everything down. The deck has no black mana to hardcast griselbrand, and do escape annihilates their burning wish package as well as their omniscience hardcast.

Then there is sneak attack. I admit that humiity makes sense here, I'd dedicate a slot to humiity

[Claymore]

the problem with all those is that, in my experience, show and tell can still play out from under a chains or humility (side board bounce). show and tell has the sickest topdeck in the format, not us...well maybe miracles by definition. I don't have too much experience with nether void against sneak show, but they generally can benefit just as much as us from our explore ramp, not to mention sol lands. dovescape, if landed before show and tell or sneak attack, will lock them out permanently

[Star|Scream]

Qweerios: Can I just say that Life from the loam in BUG is just awesome? It, plus coiling oracle + top is just so much value.

[Qweerios]

@Star Scream,

Ya, that's why it's in nearly all of my Gifts piles. Great synergy with Wasteland, fetches, Gifts, Volrath Tower combo, Liliana, and Top.

[Claymore]

@Qweerios

I've been looking to see how close I am to BUG Fit and am surprisingly close...but mostly because, when using your list as a quick reference, you dropped Jace. Any particular reason?

[bruizar]

@Star Scream,

Ya, that's why it's in nearly all of my Gifts piles. Great synergy with Wasteland, fetches, Gifts, Volrath Tower combo, Liliana, and Top.

I'm not sure if you already said so in the thread, but could you tell me what your gifts piles are? I am still having troubles to understand how your Gifts Ungiven piles work and what interactions there are. My impression is that there are no insta-win piles in your gifts list, only packages that work for you in certain situations. I would like to know if maybe I'm missing some interactions. Could you list them out please?

Thanks

[Arianrhod]

I know he did say them somewhere back a few pages, and I'm pretty sure there are no instawin piles in legacy in general. This isn't vintage where we can go Vault-Key-Regrowth-Will =( The best we could do would probably be something like Thopter/Sword or Hexdepths, which are both equally terrible in Nic Fit for obvious reasons.

Also, I'm going to test out an Eladrami's Call in my floater spot today, over the 4th Green Sun. I'll hopefully find out just how good it is to actually be able to tutor for Rector and Baneslayer =.=;; Stupid white creatures being good and stuff lol

[Claymore]

I used to use Garruk almost solely as a Rector tutor so it should go well, lol.

Speaking of, I might play in a more aggro meta (goblins, maverick, rug, merfolk) so I may just bring him back...

[bruizar]

Eladamri's Call into Gilded Drake seems like a reasonable surprise against SnT. Might win you a game or 2 against an unsuspecting player. (He can just go for Sneak Attack / Omniscience, but not if he doesn't know you play E.Call into Drake)

[HoneyT]

I'm 100% aware that the following decklist is not viable, however It's sweet and I thought I'd give the good fellows on here some entertainment. I present to you:

Battle of Fits!

Enjoy!

Battle of Fits:

// Deck: Battle of Fits (248)

// Lands
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 City of Brass
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dryad Arbor
6 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
6 Island
4 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Phyrexian Tower
4 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Savannah
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Acidic Slime
4 Baleful Strix
4 Coiling Oracle
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Eternal Witness
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Primeval Titan
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reveillark
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Silklash Spider
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sun Titan
1 Terastodon
3 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trinket Mage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Woodfall Primus

// Spells
4 Battle of Wits
4 Birthing Pod
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Damnation
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Faith's Fetters
3 Garruk Relentless
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Intuition
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
1 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Natural Order
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Recurring Nightmare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and Tell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites
3 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God


No sideboard yet. Competitive? Probably not. Fun as hell? Definitely!

[Alexeezay]

needs fierce empath, wall of blossoms, entomber exarch (for pod), hornet queen for giggles & 4 pulse/vindicate :DD looks awesome lol
probably also moat/baneslayer and phyrexian arena haha

Trying to be serious about a battle of wits is hard. :DD

[Qweerios]

I got 4th at a small tournament today, leaving with some store credits. My BuG Fit list is the same so I won't repost it.

2-0 UR Delver
0-2 Homebrew Painter Stone
2-0 Maverick
2-1 Sneak Show

Lost top4 to the Homebrew Painter (with a GY combo involving LED + Auriok Salvagers, and Isochron/Orims which I scooped to twice on turn 2) 0-2 again, and he took first place beating Reanimator.

Overall, I was really glad to utterly destroy UR Delver with my Ooze/Finks/Tusk package. 4 Deeds didn't give Maverick a any rest (despite 2 Sylvan Libraries), and Sneak Show was grinded out and destroyed G2 by TS/Negate/Extirpate and beat down by Witnesses and Prime Titan.

@Claymore,

I dropped Jace because 2UU stretches the manabase too much. I only play 2 Oracles and 2 Gifts as far as blue goes, and that's honestly all I need. Sometimes, my opponents don't even know I play blue because I don't have a single blue land in play the entire game.

@Bruizar,

Gifts piles are never the same. I guess if you wanted to play solitaire you could always go for Volrath/Tower/LftL/Grave Titan or Volrath/Witness/GSZ/Grave Titan, but it is never like that. Today, I did the following piles:

Volrath/Tower/LftL/Thragtusk against UR Delver while I was holding a Witness;
Volrath/Shriekmaw/Vapors/Witness against Maverick while I had Tower in play and LftL in my GY;

..and thats about it. Sneak Show countered my Gifts and the Painter Stone games didnt last very long as I mostly scooped to fast Isochron/Orim's either on turn2 or ripped off the top after my TS/Negates.

[Arianrhod]

More content later....tired at the moment. Took top 8 at a local event today (played Rector) for some credit. Lost in 3 to ANT in the semis....he nut drew the fuck out of me g3.

[Megadeus]

In a PFire build would SB 4th Grove of the Burnwillows and PFire be good? I have been thinking about just running that as my board for fair decks and tribal rather than relying on like engineered plague or virtues ruin. A lot of the time getting grove and PFire online just wrecks them

[Cire_dk]

Played my Rector Nic Fit deck for the first time in a small tournament in Rotterdam. (40 people)
@Arianrhod : you warned me the beginning would be hard, You were right about that :smile:

I did not do very well. 1-4-1 That includes one bye.

A very short report:

ANT:
On the draw I play therapy, he brainstorms, I call LED to his surprise and took 2 out of his hand. Nice. After that he goes of on turn 4. Game 2; board in disruption but he goes of turn 3. Even for an experienced player this would have been a bad match up.
0-2
0-1-0

RUG:
Game 1 he has two mongoose (mongeese? ;-) ) and stifles all my attempts to get land, counters deeds and goes for the win
Game 2 Turn 2 he has 2 delvers and lots of counters so no chance.
This player makes the final and beats 2 nic fit decks to get there.

0-2
0-2-0

LANDS:
This is such a boring game. I almost fall asleep. He does not find his wincon so I see him shuffle lands for 50 minutes and 5 extra turns. Draw.

0-0
0-2-1

Bye
1-2-1

Pox with Dark Depths.
I do not manage any control so loose quickly to a 20/20 flyer

0-2
1-3-1

Hate Bears/Stax?
He gets a lot of cards in play which prevent me to get a deed in action. I loose twice without being able to do anything.

0-2
1-4-1

Pros:
The deck is great fun to play so I will certainly work hard to get the hang of it.
I learned a lot
2 teammates (Viridia and Chimera) made top 8 with a BUG still list.

Cons:
The match ups were not the best ones to try out what Nic Fit does best
It was very very hot in Rotterdam (about 35 celcius)

[Megadeus]

That's quite a diverse meta. That's rough about the RUG game. Those are the Only hands that beat us. I never realized how good stifle is against us either. I just found out wednesday

[HoneyT]

@Megadeus

I wouldn't play another Grove in the board unless you're playing Living Wish. I would much rather board in an "oh shit" button like the 4th Deed or a Damnation. It's way more high impact than boarding in a land against the fast swarm decks.

@Qweerios

Congrats man! Are you satisfied with where your BUG list is at then? Or are there more adjustments to be made? It looks freaking sick.

@Alexeezay

Haha you're right! When you're scrabbling up a 200+ card decklist it's easy to overlook some obvious choices! Good eye!! Now we just need someone to actually try it out O.o

[CRich3]

I played in a tournament today and did horrible. I dropped after the first round because I got a bye the second. and their was only 8.

G1 vs Goblins

I mull down to 6 and keep a hand I thought was perfect. Verdant Catacombs, Forest, Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer, Grave Titan, Birthing Pod. I play turn 1 Therapy naming Swords to plowshares, he reveals goblins. He plays land pass. I draw Swords to plowhsares, play Veteran Explorer, flashback cabal therapy getting rid of 2 Piledrivers and playing Birthing pod. Im at 4 lands and never draw another land the rest of the game. My hand when I died was Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Thragtusk, Sigarda. I drew all my big creatures and played 3 Swords to Plowshares.

G2

I mull to 6 again and keep another good hand. Verdant, Explorer, Phyrexian Tower, Pernicious Deed, Academy Rector, Scrubland. I Play Verdant getting bayou playing Explorer turn 1 pass. He plays land, then I play phyrexian tower sacing Explorer and casting Deed. He plays War Marshal, then I draw a land play Rector and plains pass. He plays another war marshal and pass. I eventually get Curse of Death Hold on him and deed him twice. I had 11 lands in play and never drew another creature or green sun's all game.

Today just wasnt my day.

[Qweerios]

@HoneyT,

I don't have any tweaks I wish to make atm except for Vapors in the SB that I wish was a Damnation, but it's really no big deal. With every passing week, my results keep on showing me how solid the core of Nic Fit really is against fair decks. Increasing my Deed count to 4 has been a decision I have yet to regret.

Also, seeing as I have no reactive answers to Scepter/Chant, I was thinking of including a pair of Krosan Grips in my SB. However, I think that the occurence of this abomination is too scarce to warrant the inclusion of Kgrips in the SB.

[Megadeus]

I'm running Consume the Meek as my replacement for damnation. Not quite as good against SnT but I play edicts and lilys. It's good against everything except random 4 drop goblins

[jbone2016]

More content later....tired at the moment. Took top 8 at a local event today (played Rector) for some credit. Lost in 3 to ANT in the semis....he nut drew the fuck out of me g3.

Nice. I went 0-4 on Saturday. Boo.

Round 1: Junk aka Dark Horizons
Game 1: Very long game where I deed three times but still die to a bob with a jitte.
Game 2: Goes to time and I scoop.

Round 2: dark horizons again. vs Ian Ellis
Game 1: I never can land a board wipe and his Knight and Bob kills me.
Game 2: My 2 explorer hold him at bay for a while but overhelms me with creatures and a Maze.

Round 3: Lands
Game 1: He lands an early exploration and a cruicble while I never get to four mana before he can ghost quarter me 3 times a turn.
Game 2: He gets a thalia and port out and I get land screwed.

Round 4: Belcher
Game 1: He turn ones me. Yuck.
Game 2: A therapy naming rite of flame and hit. I flashback therapy on turn 2 or 3 and hit 2 belchers. I rector into a leyline and scoops (knowing aI have a plague in my hand)
Game 3: I keep with a leyline and a explorer but no wipe. 14 goblins on his turn. I don't rip a wipe and lose.


How do we win the lands matchup? I don't think I beat it yet.
Belcher? Seem to be luck.
I tried a pendlehaven instead of Treetop this time. Wasn't much better.
Deed x4 over Lilana/green sun's or a eldarmi's call?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Round 3: Lands
How do we win the lands matchup? I don't think I beat it yet.


You can't actually win. Fact.

[Qweerios]

It's kinda funny how I never lost to Lands with Nic Fit? I find that once I land an Ooze and keep them off Crucible, the deck doesn't do much. Post board is even easier with Extirpate and Negate. They don't exactly have a clock and if you can keep them off Explosives/Ruins, they really don't have any ways to interact. Waste/Loam is also very good at poping Chasm so Thrun can get through...

[PollePotDK]

Kokusho + Recurring Nightmare and/or Faith's Fetter on Academy Ruins at a time where all or key arrifacts are in graveyard.

Lands cant deal with Kokusho's 5 life loss. Doesnt target and isnt damage (Glacial Chasm is dead)

[HoneyT]

@jbone2016

Lands is tough. You need to fire off Explorers quickly and Deed/Pulse away their Manabonds/Explorations/Crucibles as soon as possible. Thrun gets around their Mazes. Game one is super hard. If you get locked game one, just scoop. You're more favored post-board when you get Extirpates/Surgicals for their Loams. It's one of those matches that you have to play very quickly or it will go to time.

I don't know why you put a Pendlehaven in the deck. Care to explain your reasoning? All it does is pump your Explorers and you want them to die anyway.

@Megadeus

I think Damnation is just better. Goblins plays a lot of high CMC cards. And you cast it a turn sooner. The instant speed isn't that relevant in my experience.

@Qweerios

Have you tested Stoneblade and or Miracles with the new BUG list? If so, how is it? It seems like the Gifts packages would help alot in that regard.

[Uncoordinated]

Regarding the BUG lists running Gifts, have you guys tried out a singleton Unearth to solidy your piles? I think it's almost always an inclusion, even if a large portion of your dudes can't get recurred.

[cuthbertthecat]

You guys are underestimating your lands matchup. you have tons of relevant disruption and infinite basics. you guys are heavily favored barring nut draws like 3 ghost quarters per turn while you don't have access to an ooze.

[bruizar]

@Lands: Sideboard realm razer like I do. It's an, expensive, bomb-y zenith target and a good recurring nightmare target. If you need your lands back you can flashback therapy to kill it, then cast recurring nightmare again and bring it back to keep him in a lock. Lands come back tapped, but at least you get to crush his new lands this way.

[jbone2016]

@jbone2016

Lands is tough. You need to fire off Explorers quickly and Deed/Pulse away their Manabonds/Explorations/Crucibles as soon as possible. Thrun gets around their Mazes. Game one is super hard. If you get locked game one, just scoop. You're more favored post-board when you get Extirpates/Surgicals for their Loams. It's one of those matches that you have to play very quickly or it will go to time.

I don't know why you put a Pendlehaven in the deck. Care to explain your reasoning? All it does is pump your Explorers and you want them to die anyway.


Overthinking with a humility/fierce empath in play. Seems pretty bad. What would you suggest for another utility/manland?
Leyline of the void worthwhile at all vs lands?

[Megadeus]

@HoneyT I understand that damnation is just better than consume, it's just my budget replacement for the time being.

Anyone think the new Jarad would be any good? Or am I overthinking things a bit? Him plus Kokusho seems nasty, and if nothing else he is a big fatty

[HoneyT]

Agreeing with cuthberrthecat here. Lands isn't that bad especially to warrant something like Realm Razer in the board.

@jbone2016

In the Rector version that you're playing I wouldn't even worry about another utility land. They lose value unless you're playing Primeval Titan. If I were you, I'd play the second Phyrexian Tower. With Rectors you want more sac outlets

@Megadeus

Sorry, I didn't realize you were under budget constraints. As for Jarad, I don't think he's worth it. He's pretty narrow to just use with Kokusho, I'd just rather Nightmare loop. I'm not gonna dismiss him entirely yet, but I don't forsee him being worth it.

[Claymore]

Went to a decent tournament and got completely fucked by my deck. It didn't even buy me dinner, the tramp. Went 0-2 in matches against Maverick (really, against Scavenging Ooze) and then managed to get 2 buys...which ironically got placed ahead of one of the players who beat me and I 5th place, good enough to get my entry fee back as a prize, haha.

One game I got far ahead on card advantage thanks to Deeds and discard with a Top in play, but could not draw into absolutely anything at all over probably 30 minutes of the round and eventually died to a giant Ooze. I don't remember the rest of the match but I died as my deck shits the bed. A Grave Titan instead of Kokusho would have won one of the games to stabilize against giant KotR. At one point Rector is eaten by Ooze and he has triple Mother.

Next match is a grinder but eventually I'm staring down a tapped out Ooze/massive KotR and have Sun Titan and Explorer in play with Kokusho in the graveyard with the opponent at 10 with Recurring Nightmare in hand and a PTower plus 6 lands on the field. I promptly tap out my black mana sources to cast Nightmare and recur Kokusho, then stare at the table after realizing my horrible play. Opponent wins a few turns later when I can't find any Deeds after eating my Titan and Kokusho.

That game also took forever, and the opponent quickly scoops game 2 after he mulls to 5 and I go Therapy - Therapy - Witness targetting Therapy. Game 3 I keep a sketchy 2 land hand with a bunch of 3 drops (Deed, ORing), Rector, Faiths Fetters, Fleshbag. Of course, I never draw another land and opponent gets a nut draw.

Regardless, the big finding I had was that a Rector deck with both Kokusho and Sun Titan is massively susceptible to graveyard hate in the form of Scavenging Ooze since both of your 6 drops rely on the graveyard to have advantage, since really I was only beat by Ooze (and myself) today. I may put Grave Titan back in to have pure killing power.

[HoneyT]

i may put grave titan back in to have pure killing power.

Amen!

[Qweerios]

@HoneyT,

Stoneblade is pretty good and Miracle is about even.

[Megadeus]

Grave Titan seems too good to not play. I don't know how many games I have lost when I resolve him, but the number is very low.

[bradstone]

Grave Titan seems too good to not play. I don't know how many games I have lost when I resolve him, but the number is very low.

Agreed, I run him as a 2 of right now. He's a two turn clock against a board without creatures, and if your opponents board does have creatures hes probably doing even better

[Megadeus]

I have a split between Grave and Broodmate Dragon. I like having a green sunnable finisher that can fly. May cut the dragon for the second Titan though because I'm running a Thragtusk now.

[Cire_dk]

Being fairly new on this forum and getting to know Nic Fit I sometimes find it difficult to find out what version people are talking about. Discussing something like Grave Titan will obviously depend on your build. Some of you play one version but others play different versions which makes it even more difficult. So I wonder if we could once in a while remind which build we run. Or should I just read all your posts better and get to know you all? :laugh:

[Cire_dk]

One game I got far ahead on card advantage thanks to Deeds and discard with a Top in play, but could not draw into absolutely anything at all over probably 30 minutes of the round and eventually died to a giant Ooze. I don't remember the rest of the match but I died as my deck shits the bed. A Grave Titan instead of Kokusho would have won one of the games to stabilize against giant KotR. At one point Rector is eaten by Ooze and he has triple Mother.



In these cases a moat by sacrificing rector after the block is very helpfull but they are so expensive :frown: Also I noticed that when you need it there is no tower around to save the day.

[UseLess]

Regarding the BUG lists running Gifts, have you guys tried out a singleton Unearth to solidy your piles? I think it's almost always an inclusion, even if a large portion of your dudes can't get recurred.

Yes, I have and it is absolutely insane, not just with gifts, but on its own as well. Especially chaining witnesses is funny (cast unearth on witness, return unearth, cast on second witness, returning unearth again). Had it a couple of times last saturday, of which I will post a report later this day. Never leave home without Unearth if you play Gifts.

[bruizar]

Yes, I have and it is absolutely insane, not just with gifts, but on its own as well. Especially chaining witnesses is funny (cast unearth on witness, return unearth, cast on second witness, returning unearth again). Had it a couple of times last saturday, of which I will post a report later this day. Never leave home without Unearth if you play Gifts.

We used to play with Unearth as well. Although it's very nice with witness, it takes up a valuable slot in the deck. At the moment, I cut it, as I think the biggest issue of the decklists posted in this thread is that it has a lot of situational chaff or uncastable cards. My biggest issue with Unearth is that it doesn't make the deck any less prone to graveyard hate.

I'm still unsure whether or not this card belongs in the deck, but as of right now, I'm playing without it. That said, I am fairly certain that my intuition build is much more competitive than the Gifts Ungiven builds posted in this thread. The three reasons for this statement are:
1) Gifts gets shut down by Gaddock Teeg
2) It is a turn slower than intuition, legacy is in a combo centric meta right now.
3) Gifts Ungiven doesn't win the game upon resolution.

I am still waiting for 2 cards to arrive before I can make a picture of my deck and explain the list. >_< Intuition generally ends the game on turn 3.

If I had to pick a Nic Fit build, it would be:
1) Intuition build
2) Valakut build / Rector Build
3) Gifts Ungiven build

The reason for Valakut over gifts is that, at least, Scapeshift wins on resolution.



I'd like to discuss GSZ / Rector / Gifts / Reanimation targets a bit more.

I've been thinking about a few more fringe GSZ targets that I haven't actually tested, but can imagine are some good:
GSZ
Heartwood Storyteller (Against U/W control. Plow or Terminus will gain you a card.)
Cold-Eyed Selkie (Better splash against Merfolk, still as good against U/W control unless immediately plowed. Sadly, only Lord of Atlantis pumps your Cold-Eyed Selkie. Master of the Pearl Trident and Coralhelm Commander don't give +1/+1 to the opposing merfolk.)

Rector
Confiscate Against Omniscience you can steal his Emrakul, Griselbrand or Omniscience after he SnT's. Good to have in your hand when SnT resolves. If he has Karakas in play, you can also steal his Karakas and bounce his creature if he's not SnT'ing Omniscience but Griselbrand/Emrakul.

[Claymore]

In these cases a moat by sacrificing rector after the block is very helpfull but they are so expensive :frown: Also I noticed that when you need it there is no tower around to save the day.

Moat actually wouldn't have done much, sadly. This player realized the crucial weakness behind Rector's ability as I was attempting to resolve it - that Rector can be removed from the graveyard in response to her trigger. Otherwise, he was also running Pridemage.

The reason why I wasn't running GTitan was because I had three 6 drops and, after seeing people post on it in here, realized that sometimes my hand would get clunked up with excessive high drops. I don't remember what I replaced him with...I think the Russian Thragtusk I picked up. I'll be putting him back in one way or another now though.

------


Rector
Confiscate Against Omniscience you can steal his Emrakul, Griselbrand or Omniscience after he SnT's. Good to have in your hand when SnT resolves. If he has Karakas in play, you can also steal his Karakas and bounce his creature if he's not SnT'ing Omniscience but Griselbrand/Emrakul.

Do you mean its good to have Confiscate or Rector in hand with SnT? You can't show a Confiscate to steal whatever they cheat into play...like how I managed to lose against SnT when I found I couldn't use Phyrexian Metamorph to Legend Rule whatever they cheated as well, haha.

It does bring up the interesting question of off-color tutor targets, like either Broodmate Dragon (GSZ) or Confiscate (Rector) in GBW or other builds. If the card is powerful enough, is it worth the risk of drawing it when we can tutor it into play from the library? Its something probably everyone has thought of with Form of the Dragon.

[Star|Scream]

We used to play with Unearth as well. Although it's very nice with witness, it takes up a valuable slot in the deck. At the moment, I cut it, as I think the biggest issue of the decklists posted in this thread is that it has a lot of situational chaff or uncastable cards. My biggest issue with Unearth is that it doesn't make the deck any less prone to graveyard hate.

I'm still unsure whether or not this card belongs in the deck, but as of right now, I'm playing without it. That said, I am fairly certain that my intuition build is much more competitive than the Gifts Ungiven builds posted in this thread. The three reasons for this statement are:
1) Gifts gets shut down by Gaddock Teeg
2) It is a turn slower than intuition, legacy is in a combo centric meta right now.
3) Gifts Ungiven doesn't win the game upon resolution.

I am still waiting for 2 cards to arrive before I can make a picture of my deck and explain the list. >_< Intuition generally ends the game on turn 3.

If I had to pick a Nic Fit build, it would be:
1) Intuition build
2) Valakut build / Rector Build
3) Gifts Ungiven build

The reason for Valakut over gifts is that, at least, Scapeshift wins on resolution.



I'd like to discuss GSZ / Rector / Gifts / Reanimation targets a bit more.

I've been thinking about a few more fringe GSZ targets that I haven't actually tested, but can imagine are some good:
GSZ
Heartwood Storyteller (Against U/W control. Plow or Terminus will gain you a card.)
Cold-Eyed Selkie (Better splash against Merfolk, still as good against U/W control unless immediately plowed. Sadly, only Lord of Atlantis pumps your Cold-Eyed Selkie. Master of the Pearl Trident and Coralhelm Commander don't give +1/+1 to the opposing merfolk.)

Rector
Confiscate Against Omniscience you can steal his Emrakul, Griselbrand or Omniscience after he SnT's. Good to have in your hand when SnT resolves. If he has Karakas in play, you can also steal his Karakas and bounce his creature if he's not SnT'ing Omniscience but Griselbrand/Emrakul.

Can you at least list what your intuition pile does to end the game on the spot?

Also if you SNT an aura you can't target a permanent that your opponent just SNT'd. It has to already be on the battlefield beforehand.

[novatinhu]

anyone keep playing with BUG list? what's the best version?

Cya

[Arianrhod]

Being fairly new on this forum and getting to know Nic Fit I sometimes find it difficult to find out what version people are talking about. Discussing something like Grave Titan will obviously depend on your build. Some of you play one version but others play different versions which makes it even more difficult. So I wonder if we could once in a while remind which build we run. Or should I just read all your posts better and get to know you all? :laugh:

It does get confusing pretty quickly, I'll grant. That said, it's fairly easy to keep track of the people that only play one version....it's mostly those of us who have access to multiple versions that cause this problem. I always try to define which version I'm talking about, but I'm not sure I always do the best job of that.

Grave Titan is perfectly fine if you're not running Moat. If you are, then you probably don't want him.


Went to a decent tournament and got completely fucked by my deck. It didn't even buy me dinner, the tramp. Went 0-2 in matches against Maverick (really, against Scavenging Ooze) and then managed to get 2 buys...which ironically got placed ahead of one of the players who beat me and I 5th place, good enough to get my entry fee back as a prize, haha.

One game I got far ahead on card advantage thanks to Deeds and discard with a Top in play, but could not draw into absolutely anything at all over probably 30 minutes of the round and eventually died to a giant Ooze. I don't remember the rest of the match but I died as my deck shits the bed. A Grave Titan instead of Kokusho would have won one of the games to stabilize against giant KotR. At one point Rector is eaten by Ooze and he has triple Mother.

Next match is a grinder but eventually I'm staring down a tapped out Ooze/massive KotR and have Sun Titan and Explorer in play with Kokusho in the graveyard with the opponent at 10 with Recurring Nightmare in hand and a PTower plus 6 lands on the field. I promptly tap out my black mana sources to cast Nightmare and recur Kokusho, then stare at the table after realizing my horrible play. Opponent wins a few turns later when I can't find any Deeds after eating my Titan and Kokusho.

That game also took forever, and the opponent quickly scoops game 2 after he mulls to 5 and I go Therapy - Therapy - Witness targetting Therapy. Game 3 I keep a sketchy 2 land hand with a bunch of 3 drops (Deed, ORing), Rector, Faiths Fetters, Fleshbag. Of course, I never draw another land and opponent gets a nut draw.

Regardless, the big finding I had was that a Rector deck with both Kokusho and Sun Titan is massively susceptible to graveyard hate in the form of Scavenging Ooze since both of your 6 drops rely on the graveyard to have advantage, since really I was only beat by Ooze (and myself) today. I may put Grave Titan back in to have pure killing power.

What's your threat base look like? I used to have the same problem you had where I'd run out of steam after Deeding away their everything, and just be unable to close the game. Now, though, I've got Koku+Sun Titan, Sigarda, a pair of Baneslayers, Thragtusk, and a pair of Elspeths...sometimes I feel like I clog on big drops a little, but I don't have any kind of inability to close the game.

One of the reasons I've been playing the Red version more than the White version lately is because the Red is better vs Maverick, while the White is better vs RUG....and in my general meta, Maverick is played a lot more than RUG is. For some reason, the White version has a lot of trouble with Maverick, which neither of the other splashes do. I haven't been able to figure out why yet, and lord knows I've been trying. While I like Kokusho's killing power, I might test Yosei in that slot instead, because he seems better vs Maverick. If they have the stupid Ranger out they can still play magic under a Yosei-lock, I guess, but it'll still hurt them pretty badly. I don't really know, honestly.


Agreeing with cuthberrthecat here. Lands isn't that bad especially to warrant something like Realm Razer in the board.

@jbone2016

In the Rector version that you're playing I wouldn't even worry about another utility land. They lose value unless you're playing Primeval Titan. If I were you, I'd play the second Phyrexian Tower. With Rectors you want more sac outlets

@Megadeus

Sorry, I didn't realize you were under budget constraints. As for Jarad, I don't think he's worth it. He's pretty narrow to just use with Kokusho, I'd just rather Nightmare loop. I'm not gonna dismiss him entirely yet, but I don't forsee him being worth it.

HoneyT nailed it on all accounts. As long as you don't play like a chump, lands is easily winnable...especially with Kokusho. If you don't have Kokusho, try to build up lethal on board, then Vindicate the Chasm for an alpha strike. Deed is actually amazing here, because you can blow up all their lock pieces. Fetters on Ruins will buy you a turn, but good lands players will just Wasteland their own Ruins and then recur it.

Rector = 2 Phyrexian Towers. This gives you another outlet for Rector, but it also increases the number of "nut" openers you'll see (t1 Explorer t2 Tower -> 5 mana), which is important because Rector costs 4.

Jarad may well be standard or modern playable, but I don't see it in legacy, and it won't be in this deck. He's too specific and he doesn't do enough. If you're throwing Kokusho at people, just run Nightmare instead. It's much better.


Yes, I have and it is absolutely insane, not just with gifts, but on its own as well. Especially chaining witnesses is funny (cast unearth on witness, return unearth, cast on second witness, returning unearth again). Had it a couple of times last saturday, of which I will post a report later this day. Never leave home without Unearth if you play Gifts.

/Barn. I've got Unearth in the Gifts build I've been messing around with, and it's pretty nutty.

/\\//\\//\

So I got new sleeves that don't feel cheap and actually show off my foils nicely, which led me to want to play the Rector version on Saturday to show off. My tournament went as follows:

R1, I'm paired with my friend that is playing my Gifts version. As is our usual course of action in such circumstances, we ID and do lunch.

0-0-1.

We scout the room a bit after eating, and see a pretty favorable meta....more so for Gifts than Rector, because there's a few combo decks in the room, but it's not that big of a deal. Rector can play vs combo.

R2, I get paired against the one Maverick player in the room. I keep a decent 7 with three lands, a Zenith, Moat, and two random cards. I figure I can Zenith out Explorer to ramp / stall, then drop Moat and as long as he doesn't have his 1-of Elspeth, I'm fine. Naturally he has his Elspeth, and I summarily die.

Game two I mull to 5. Two lands, Zenith, and two randoms. I Zenith out Explorer, fail to draw a third land, and he makes a Mom + KotR. He proceeds to pro-green his dude and swing for the trees while I fail to find a 3rd land the rest of the game. Awesome.

0-1-1.

R3 god rewards my diligence with Merfolk. I Deed away his everything, then drop Moat and kill him with Baneslayer. Game two is almost exactly the same, except with more Carpet of Flowers. Note that this is the only game that I drew Eladrami's Call, which proceeded to fetch the Baneslayer I won the game with. Never even saw it the rest of the day.

1-1-1.

R4, dredge. He mulls to oblivion game one as only dredge can do, gets shitty dredges when he finally keeps (I think he kept his 4), and I quickly destroy him with Sigarda and Baneslayer. Game two is a lot closer...he mulls again, but then opens up a pretty nutty opening sequence with LED, Ceph Coliseum, and Faithless Looting. He dumps something like 2/3 of his deck into his graveyard turn two, but can't kill me. I sac an Explorer, poofing all of his bridges, and drop a Deed. He brings back his two Ichorids, makes some Narcos via dredge, swings, and DRs a Grave-Troll. Now, I misplay my turn horrifically, and am put into the position where I need to jedi-mind-trick my way to victory as a result. I crack Deed for 5 on his turn after be brings back his Ichorids. He doesn't realize he can use his City of Brass to regenerate the Grave-Troll. I fail to find an Extirpate with my Top, drop another Deed, and pass. He brings Ichorids back again, swings, drops me to 4, and DRs another Grave Troll. I Deed away his troll, finally hit an Extirpate, nuke his Ichorids, and he has no way to win the game with like two cards left in his library. I still like my chances if the game had gone to three, but I'm perfectly fine with him not knowing that he could regenerate his Trolls out of Deed.

2-1-1.

R5, god rewards my renewed confidence with RUG. Game one I deed away double Delver, then eventually make a Sun Titan and push his face in. Game two is more of the same, but with double Explorer into Thragtusk.

3-1-1.

Top 8: ANT. Game one he has a disruption heavy hand, and we both end up playing draw-go for a few turns as a result. Eventually I hit a therapy/Explorer, make a Baneslayer, drain him for five, then make a Tusk, representing lethal on board. He rips Ad Nauseum off the top like a champion, with no cards in hand. Ad Nauseums down to 2, and easily kills me from there.

Game two I open a hand of like land, land, Extirpate, Mindcensor, Carpet of Flowers, Curse of Exhaustion, which I snapkeep. I drop the Carpet, he Duresses me, taking the Extirpate. I drop Mindcensor, strip-mining one of his fetches. He then Therapies for Curse of Exhaustion. At some point an Explorer goes off, which naturally one of his two basics in deck was in the top four. I Witness back Extirpate, nuking his Cabal Rituals, and he scoops.

Game three I mull to 6. It's like Memoricide, Explorer, and four lands. I keep like an idiot. He opens with Therapy naming Therapy. I fail to be good at magic (aka draw therapy). I make a land and an Explorer, then ship it back. Then goes ritual, ritual, Ad Nauseum, draws like 30 cards, and easily storms me out. The really irritating thing is that the literal only thing I could have even done was rip Therapy off the top, and I would have had to blind hit on top of it (to be fair, I probably would have named Dark Ritual, but still). I probably should have mulled to 5, as well.

Thoughts at this point -- Rector still has an unreasonable amount of trouble with Maverick. I'm legitimately thinking that the problem is just that the deck doesn't have a backup ramp engine vs nonblue. Its curve is a little on the clunky side, which is one reason I love playing against blue decks with Rector....Carpet of Flowers fixes any mana issues. Maverick is almost like RUG without islands, so not having Carpet can really hurt when they're on the mana denial plan. The Red version has Wood Elves, and the Blue version has Coiling Oracle. Carpet of Flowers is good and all, but it's only effective vs islands, which Maverick doesn't run. I dunno -- it's just a theory at this point, but I suspect it's what's going on. The annoying thing is that I don't know what I would even put in. I think that ideally I'd like a Farhaven Elf that costs two mana, but that doesn't exist to my knowledge.

Mindcensor probably isn't good enough. It has more synergy with the deck that I at first gave it credit for, but after three/four events with the birds in my board, I haven't been sufficiently impressed by them.

Curse of Exhaustion is filler until I get a Nether Void. Preliminary testing has shown Void to be the desired Rector target to end all Rector targets vs stack-based combo. Dovescape is amusing, but it requires you to keep your Deeds in vs stack-based combo, which seems poor. It also means you have to Rector in a Deed when their birds get out of control, and Dovescape is not castable off the turn 2 Explorer-Tower nut draw, whereas Void is (with Therapy backup, even). Also, triple white.

I was keeping an especially close eye on the singleton Swords to Plowshares during this event, and about all it did for me was be in my opening hand g2 vs RUG...he led with Delver, I swordsed it, and we moved on with our lives. Not sure how the game would have gone without that Swords. I had it once against Merfolk, but he had Kira, so it didn't matter. I like the mise Swords a great deal, but I think that if I can figure out the desired backup ramp engine, the Swords will get cut for it, with the floater spot making a second copy of whatever I choose. Eladrami's Call wasn't atrocious by any stretch, but I think that the deck needs a backup engine more than it needs more tutors.

I feel that Rector has the potential to be one of the most (if not -the- most) solid versions, but its poor Maverick matchup is standing in its way. Until I get that fixed, I wouldn't recommend running it if your meta has a lot of Maverick floating around. The Valakut Red version seems the most stable at this juncture, of my lists anyway. If you've got a lot of RUG and Stoneblade around, then by all means Rector is what you want...but not Maverick.

Anywho, those are my thoughts for the moment. I'm going to spend some quality time with Gatherer this afternoon and see what I can dig up.

[Greenpoe]

If you want a backup engine, Collective Voyage or Cultivate seem decent. Collective Voyage only searches up basics just like Explorer.

[Claymore]

Collective Voyage...interesting. I wish it was "each player pays X/Y and then searches for how many lands they paid for", otherwise it seems like an odd New Frontiers that gets around Gaddock Teeg...and its much harder to Daze or Pierce, since you don't have to go all in on your mana. I may try that out in my GB Ritual Fit, but I imagine it doesn't really help Rector as a back up engine because it needs mana on the field already, and an opponent likely won't help you get lands out.

In almost all of my Maverick loses, I lost simply to Scavenging Ooze. The deck can be built to be too dependent on the graveyard, and Ooze will hurt it. Other graveyard hate can be dealt with, but an Ooze with Mom backup has the unique blend of a clock as well as the hate engine. The tournament had like 4 Mavericks show up, so it wasn't going to go well for me, haha.


What's your threat base look like? I used to have the same problem you had where I'd run out of steam after Deeding away their everything, and just be unable to close the game. Now, though, I've got Koku+Sun Titan, Sigarda, a pair of Baneslayers, Thragtusk, and a pair of Elspeths...sometimes I feel like I clog on big drops a little, but I don't have any kind of inability to close the game.

My threats have gotten much lighter since I've been tuning the deck to be more control-oriented (discard and removal) since my LGS is a Show and Tell and burn meta. I roll with Koku, Sun Titan, Sigarda, Thragtusk, Finks, and then the usual weenies with 4 GSZ.

As far as the backup engine, x2 Sakura-Tribe Elder or Viridian Emissary fits in the 2cc slot. Viridian goes along with the sac outlets that Rector is built around but is as vulnerable to Exile effects as Explorer.

[Arianrhod]

Wait a second. Your meta is Sneak and Burn based, and you AREN'T running Baneslayer? Pro demons means pro-Griselbrand, and obviously lolburn is obvious.

Collective Voyage is actually better than I thought it was at first, but I still don't think it's good enough. I guess if you draw it mid-late you just get all the rest of your basics out and don't have to worry about drawing them later...but what benefit are you really going to get out of it? You can't ramp at all t1, and you can get one land on turn two. Note that I'm assuming your opponent isn't going to chip in. But yeah -- to reach the same level of an Explorer trigger you'd have to sink 3 mana into it -- at which point it'd be better to just run Cultivate (which also seems bad).

From Gatherer trolling, it looks like Sakura-tribe and Emissary are the choices. I'll probably try one copy of each for the moment to see which one I like better. They each have different strengths....STE can't be sacced to Therapy if you want ramp, which is a problem, but it also doesn't require a sac outlet to function like Emissary. Blegh.

Ooze can be a serious problem, but I've never straight up lost games just to it alone. Since you're not running with Moat, you might want to consider taking Qweerios's advice and bumping up to 4 Deeds. That'll help with that problem. It seems like Maverick is basically just sweep, sweep, and more sweep. Nothing else seems to work vs them, at least from the Rector perspective. =/

[Claymore]

Haha, well Baneslayer isn't exactly pro-Annihilator. My build has a good match up against Burn due to Finks and previously mainboarded Ooze, but now also has Thragtusk. I did some testing against SnT with Baneslayer before but wasn't thrilled, but I'll test it again.

[slikwilly]

The reason why I wasn't running GTitan was because I had three 6 drops and, after seeing people post on it in here, realized that sometimes my hand would get clunked up with excessive high drops. I don't remember what I replaced him with...I think the Russian Thragtusk I picked up. I'll be putting him back in one way or another now though.

I ended up keeping in all three 6-drops over the weekend. The pain of doing so was not lost on me as I sat there looking at a hand w/ Kokusho, STitan, and GTitan. Of course the real problem was not that I couldn't cast them, but that I knew my opponent had a Plowshares in hand. I waited and waited for either a PTower or a Cabal Therapy that never did arrive. In hindsight I probably should have baited out the Plowshares w/ the STitan to clear the way for GTitan.

That was the fair matchup (mono-white Stoneblade). I also ran into mono-blue Cephalid Breakfast and Reanimator. Didn't see a single Deed (I run 3) or Rector (2 of) in all my games. Was pretty bad all around.

[Megadeus]

If you draw all three fatties all you need to do is keep one on the field for a few turns. You don't need them all!

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod,

If you want GBW Nic Fit to work against Maverick a little more, try the rock version and drop Rector altogether. The whole rector package coupled with 2 Elspeth and your threat package (5+ 5-6drops?) looks incredibly heavy. I would be led to believe that recurring removal with a single Sigarda would be enough to seal most games considering I've been sealing mine primarily with Thrun, Witness, Ooze, and Thragtusk (Grave never comes out for me).

If you do choose to stick with Rector (ofc you will...), I think that you really don't need to go above 5 cmc to ride your deck to victory. Baneslayer Angel, Bloodgift Demon, Sigarda, Host of Herons, and Abyssal Persecutor is all the fat and utility you need to ride a Moat to victory. Kokusho and Nightmare are perfect examples of win-more cards in a deck packed with 4-6 cmc bombs.

[Star|Scream]

I like bloodgift cause even if you get locked out of combat, he's still a 20 turn clock


u mad?
:cool:

[Arianrhod]

Haha, of course not -- you know me too well I think, Qweerios. I'm actually in agreement with you, though. It might be that running without Sun Titan in a white splash will just be too heretical...I dunno. But I have been boarding out the 6-drops + Empath for a while now to see how it plays, and it's not that bad. I might keep Kokusho in, and trim out Titan and Empath...or try to switch him with Yosei and see what happens. I'm not sure yet -- but I am thinking at this point that the deck is just too top-heavy to function properly against non-blue opponents. I've been crutching on Carpet for too long. Regardless of where I go with it at the moment, Rector needs a good rebuild.

While Rector's in the garage, I'll be running Scapewish.

@Slik -- you definitely should have just ran one of them out there, let it eat the Swords, and then dropped the next one.

[ra_2_soldier]

I have been reading this thread periodically due to the fact I have been helping my friend test/tune his build and a card that we have found that really shines in the maverick matchup is birthing pod. Having a way to get chain up to rector and start buying back your removal with suntitan/eternal witness has been amazing against them. I understand that most lists run pridemage and ooze but if you use your stp's wisely it isnt that bad.

[HoneyT]

@Arianrhod

I don't think the Maverick matchup is that unfavorable. Tough and grindy to be sure, but I don't think it would take more than a few cards to turn the tides. Humility and the 4th Deed would go a long way. Scavenging Ooze is a problem for Rector so maybe a couple extra pieces of spot removal would help. I think some minor tweaks should be good to go.

On another note, I played a small tournament at the LGS tonight with my G/B list. Just 4 rounds of swiss.

2-0 against Maverick
2-0 against RUG Delver
2-0 against U/B Tezzeret Control

One of three 3-0's going into the last round

1-2 against R/B Budget Reanimator

G1 I mull to 5 and cast turn 1 Explorer. He casts turn one Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume Griselbrand. He draws cards, plays some Lotus Petals and Entombs and Reanimates an Iona and names green (wtf?). I obviously don't draw and answer and still lose.

G2 I Duress away his reanimation spell, cast a Scavenging Ooze, keep up green and he has zero outs.

G3 He casts turn 1 Putrid Imp and Lotus Petal. I Duress and see Griselbrand, another fatty, Animate Dead, Dark Ritual and a land. I take the Animate Dead. He discards his Griselbrand during his upkeep (wtf?) and draws. He casts the freshly drawn reanimate and I lose to the same creatures from game one. Iona named green again? I lose to 16 power of flying creatures =/ oh well. Them's the beats I suppose.

Anyway, still get second on tie breaks cuz I had the pair-down. The reanimator player gets fifth. Justice!

[Arianrhod]

I don't think that the way to combat Maverick is with spot removal. That puts us to the same playing field as every other deck in the format, and Maverick already has Mom to deal with that problem.

The awkward thing about boarding in Humility in the Maverick matchup is that they run Jitte (and other equipment), Elspeth, and just piles of 1/1s. Equally awkwardly, you can't Rector out Curse or Moat to combokill them, because Rector gets shut off by Humility!

I suppose the 4th Deed isn't a horrible idea. I just resist it because of Moat...in most matchups, Moat serves the same purpose that the 4th Deed does. It's just when they have those awkward draws where they happen to have their Elspeth readily at hand, or Scryb + exalted and equipment, or Mindcensor. And for some reason they're just more effective in general than something like Merfolk is....Merfolk still dies to Moat, and they have Coralhelm and Phantasmal Image to work with. For some reason, though, Maverick seems to be the exception. It's pretty frustrating.

I don't think that a MAJOR change is necessary, but I can see switching some cards around. I think that I'm going to take the Rector build offline aside from local events until Ravnica hits, though. RtR will probably have something we want, and I'd rather be ready to incorporate it than be locked into a fresh build that hasn't even been tested yet. I think that Qweerios is right, and that the Rector build probably doesn't want 6-drops. It can lean on Sigarda especially (but Baneslayer too) a lot harder than the rock versions can. I think that what the deck needs is 5-drop (or cheaper) flyers that interact favorably with Nightmare, and/or a green tutor for creatures with flying (or a Fierce Empath for 5-drops, lol). I've considered sticking in a random Rune-Scarred Demon without Empath, and maybe putting in a Fauna Shaman or something, but I don't feel like the Rector build has the creature density to take advantage of Fauna Shaman. It only runs something like 16-18 creatures....more than most Nic Fit, but probably not enough.

[Nihilis]

I'm currently testing Mwonvuli Beast Tracker as a fetcher for Abyssal Persecutor. The upside is that it can also fetch Thrun, the Last Troll and Grave Titan. The latter two could ofcourse be searched via other means (GSZ and Fierce Empath). The big downside of the card is ofcourse that it doesn't net you card advantage like the Empath does. Although I've found that downside to actually be a bit of an advantage when playing with or against Liliana, and against discard heavy decks in general. It also works great with Top.

The downside of Abyssal Persecutor is mostly irrelevant when you're playing enough sac outlets (I can only remember one or two games where I really couldn't get rid of him) and then he just becomes a 6/6 body that flies and tramples over anything for just four mana. Yes, he dies to removal, but then again so do most creatures.

[from Cairo]

Fierce Empath
Rune-Scarred Demon
Fauna Shaman

Does Eladamri's Call or Diabolic Intent not fill this role? I obviously like that Empath can be Zenithed, but when the deck wants to find CMC 4-5 guys he's probably not worth the slot. Maybe the deck could free up room for two copies of one of the tutors above or a split? It would seem like with 2x tutors, 3x Tops, and 2-3x Rectors/Baneslayers one would have enough search and manipulation to access them.

Intent strikes me as the stronger option since it can pull up Deed or Moat while interacting with Explorer, but it may want another 2-3cc sac-fodder creature to better support it.

I agree Return to Ravnica could easily provide another Selesnyan or Golgari option worthy of space in the 75.

[Arianrhod]

Call and Intent are both cards that are deserving of a lot more attention than they've been getting. That said, what I'm looking for specifically is a green creature that can grab Baneslayer and Rector, similar to Fierce Empath. Definitely going to be testing the only one that exists (apparently): Brutalizer Exarch. It tutors when you want it to tutor, and it nukes a noncreature permanent when you want it to do that. Having a Green Sun-able way of getting rid of Jace seems awfully good. I'm not sure how good it ACTUALLY is, note, but it's worth exploring. While working on the Rector version, I'm starting by drawing up a list of all of the roles that I want cards to fill in the deck. Exarch does check two of them off the list: GSZ tutor for non-green, and Nightmare-loopable advantage generator. I do wish that it actually put the card into your hand, though, instead of just on top.

[Alexeezay]

Arianrhod, you got any updates on the mana base of scapewish?
I tend to have strange opening hands more often than I'd like...f.e. only lands are valakut and badlands (or worse: mountain swamp etc etc)
other than that the deck is great

@brutalizer exarch: I think it's just another clunky expensive creature and would rather play the Beast Tracker

[Qweerios]

I loaned my Gifts Fit deck to a friend for tonight's event, so I have no results to post. He did go undefeated with a 1-0-3 score. He timed against Goblins, Enchantress, and Miracle while I was masturbating with High Tide in front of kids playing Legacy for the first time.

[Arianrhod]

Lol, I guess that's technically undefeated. Pretty uninspiring though =P Although it does bring to the forefront an interesting point: if you're just starting out with the deck, expect to go to time constantly. My friend who has been learning the archetype is drawing like nobody's business, and I almost never draw. I honestly think it's just learning curve related. The experience required to play this deck effectively is pretty daunting.

As for my local, I went 4-0 last night with Scapewish for some supplies and cash, as the store we were at didn't have anything I actually wanted with my credit.

@Alexeezay specifically (but also everyone interested in Scapewish in general): for what it's worth, the two games I lost all night were because I was a moron and kept amazing 7's without green mana. Naturally my deck proceeded to not find any green mana (one game I had a Top out, too =.=). So it does still have that problem a little. I haven't changed anything from my list that Top 4'd Vestal, but I am heavily considering cutting the Volrath's Stronghold for another green source. I am not sure -what- green source, but I think that just one more will make the deck that much more consistent. I think I've used Stronghold literally once since I put it in the deck, so it can likely afford to come out. At this point I'm waffling between another basic Forest or a 2nd Stomping Ground, as that increases my mountain count and gives me another green source....but I'm not sure I want a second shockland, because there are games where that's just as irritating at being color screwed. That said, I DO think that the deck could handle the 2nd Shock, by virtue of not running fetches. Normal legacy decks do 2-5 damage to themselves over the course of a game through fetchlands alone, so if we take 2 off of a Shockland, it isn't the end of the world. It's as though we were playing fetches, I guess.

But yeah....other than that minor change, I'm really, really happy with how Scapewish is coming along. There's obviously a ton of flex room in the board for meta concerns, but I feel it's pretty solid as is.

As for Brutalizer....yeah, I would RATHER play Beast-Tracker too....if Beast-tracker actually got useful creatures =/ That thing is the biggest disappointment for me out of all of the recent sets....the concept is exactly what we want, but it's just too restrictive. Reach? I mean, seriously? I guess it tutors up our Arachnus Spinner...? Such a waste...

[Claymore]

He timed against Goblins, Enchantress, and Miracle while I was masturbating with High Tide in front of kids playing Legacy for the first time.

That reminds me of at the last event I went to, the TO was playing and assumedly had just gotten his wife back into Legacy. They got matched against each other and she was playing Affinity and he was playing Goblins, so naturally he sided in Pulverize for game 2, lol.

--

My only problem with running the Brutalizer is that it does continuously horrendous things to the mana curve. A GSZ for Beast Tracker or Empath at least costs 4, making a decent early play in preparation for a Titan later, whereas Exarch requires you already have considerable mana out, and if drawn does nothing for you until 6 mana.

If Empath wasn't being run, I would rather run a card advantage or utility creature in that slot, rolling around 2-3cc. Quick search doesn't bring up anything obvious. There's always Relentless :P

[Arianrhod]

Here's the categories I'm thinking of specifically as I'm looking at rebuilding Rector:

GSZ Wincon: Sigarda
Nightmare Wincon: Yosei -- pretty sure he's actually better than Kokusho =(
Nightmare Recursion: ???
(Ideally) Nightmare Tutoring: ??? [Brutalizer]
GSZ Tutoring: See above
GSZ Ramp: Sakura-Tribe Elder
GSZ Removal: ???
GSZ Lifegain: TUSK.
Rector Removal: Faith's Fetters
Rector Sweep: Moat/Deed
Rector Wincon: Phyrexian Arena/Nightmare

Nightmare recursion is currently filled by Sun Titan....bringing back any permanent 3 or less is awfully broken. I don't often loop Titan with Nightmare, but it has come up a few times. I could play more Witnesses, but then I'm very dependent on Witness, and if that gets Surgicaled, my noncreature recursion is completely gone. I'm not sure that anything else exists for this slot beyond Witness and Sun Titan.

The GSZ/Nightmare tutoring slot is currently Fierce Empath, although obviously that doesn't get looped with Nightmare very often. Rune-Scarred Demon is far and away the most powerful effect with Nightmare, but that's also ludicrously expensive to set up, which makes it not the best choice. From what I've seen, GSZ has Empath, Beast-Tracker, and Exarch as options...which are all somewhat less than stellar.

GSZ Removal is basically nonexistent as well. There's Master of the Wild Hunt, Ulvenwald Tracker, and .... nothing else. With as much as they've been pushing Prey Upon, I'm hoping they'll make a green creature that Preys Upon when it comes into play...that would be perfect for this slot. For now I think it just gets left open and I run a traditional removal spell in its place.

So yeah ... that's where I'm at in my thought process right now. Very little is certain, I'm afraid, lol.

[Greenpoe]

For GSZ-enabled removal, Glissa, the Traitor could be your answer. First strike+deathtouch means she'll kill off any ground-based attackers without dying herself, or swing through whatever creatures your opponents have out and still live (unless they have Mirran Crusader or something). 3 power is pretty solid, too.

[Claymore]

Surely you haven't forgotten about Gargantuan Gorilla!

Glissa is too defensive for a removal slot. She would have to get paired with Ulvenwald Tracker, which would get benefit of having Garruk Relentless in play, but overall the package would be slow and vulnerable to removal.

Vhati il-Dal can function as pseudo removal and can be defensive, but only for combat related business...although sometimes that's all you need. Plays well with Darkblast and Master of the Wild Hunt.

Sisters of Stone Death, while massively expensive, does neat things.

By the way, has Teneb, the Harvester ever come up in here? Seems like a solid creature, although he has no immediate impact.

[Megadeus]

I understand that having GSZ do everything is ideal, but I think you should just forget a green sun removal target and just hope your STP and such get there. Also therapy naming their huge threats is not bad especially when both of you are ramping. Games where master gets online early he is absolutely amazing, but he is just underwhelming a lot of the time and very slow

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting Master at all. I've tried him in the past, and he's been varyingly good and bad depending on the meta. Pretty sure the meta is just bad for him at the moment.

Gargantuan Gorilla might be one of the funniest, worst cards I have ever seen. I had no idea that even existed.

I've got something different in mind for Glissa ;-)

Teneb has come up a long time ago....he suffers from two problems. One, as you mentioned, is that he doesn't do anything on coming in or leaving play. The other is that he's legendary. Karakas is SO unbelievably popular that playing a legendary creature that doesn't either protect itself (Sigarda/Thrun) or does something when you loop it through a sac outlet (Yosei/Kokusho) is a horrible idea. His ability is nifty, but it isn't so amazing as to try to make him work through his problems.

I'm about 95% sure that a good GSZ removal option just doesn't exist at the moment. It's something I can see them printing in the future, but for now, I think it's just an impossibility.

The tutoring slot is of far more interest to me, anyway. It might be that I'll just have to suck it up and not have a tutor option, but I'm at least going to try Exarch once or twice at local events to see how bad he actually is before dismissing him completely.

[bruizar]

Here is my intuition list. I decided not to make a picture of my deck, since my Scavenging Ooze is not at my place and I can't put myself to shame with a proxy when there's a Japanese Ooze that should be in the deck. Maybe I'll do it later :D

Exploration Rites.dec


4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Intuition
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Gigapede
1 Unburial Rites
1 Palinchron
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Griselbrand
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Unearth

1 Dryad Arbor
23 Land / 11 fetch / 6 or 7 basics (1 plains) / rest duals (1 white dual).

//Sideboard:
//Unburial Rites Package
1 Elesh-Norn, Grand Cenobyte
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Angel of Despair / Terastodon / Woodfall Primus / Empyrial Archangel / Realm Razer / whatever other non-legendary bomb you might want to run in your particular meta.
//GSZ Package
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Riftsweeper / 1 Xantid Swarm / Trygon Predator / Scryb Ranger / whatever other metaslots you may want to use
//Rest
Depends on your meta
[/CARDS]

game plan:
turn 1 Probe/Therapy
turn 2 Veteran Explorer/Therapy/EoT Intuition
turn 3 Reanimate Griselbrand, draw insane stuff and proceed to assemble palinchron loop.

Favorite Intuition piles:
1x Unburial Rites, 1x Gigapede, 1x Griselbrand
1x Unburial Rites, 1x Gigapede, 1x Palinchron
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Eternal Witness, 1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Cabal Therapy, 1x Eternal Witness
3x Eternal Witness, cast everything, then pick intuition for 3 other cards.
2x Eternal Witness, 1x Unearth

Favorite Diabolic Intent targets:
Intuition -> Best card in the deck

Pernicious Deed -> Sometimes we need to push the panic button

Hymn to Tourach -> Sack Explorer, get Hymn to Tourach and crush his hand so he can't do much with his new lands. Makes Diabolic Intent serve as Cabal Therapy 5, 6 and 7 with one of 8-GSZ/explorer out.

Favorite GSZ targets pre-board:
Scavenging Ooze -> GSZ for X = 2 to give the impression that you are dodging Spell Snare and just want an explorer. Then, pick Ooze and start eating away Snapcaster targets.
Gigapede -> This card is so good against Jace, and it enables broken intuition plays. I highly recommend gigapede to anyone playing this deck. Jace -1 and +2 don't effect Gigapede at all, and 6 damage is more loyalty than Jace can ramp. It dodges Engineered Exposives and Swords to Plowshares as well. You should watch out for Gigapede though.

Single Card Explanation
Griselbrand
Griselbrand generally gives you enough fuel to win on the spot or the turn after. Griselbrand is the vanilla rites target to go, since drawing 7 is always good, whereas Elesh-Norn or Iona are sometimes dead.
Gigapede
Gigapede is a very resilient beater, GSZ and Intuition target. He enables intuition for unburial rites, leaving you with a Gigapede in hand and a Griselbrand in play, or both a Palinchron and a Gigapede in play, which can be swapped for infinite mana with recurring nightmare.
Eternal Witness
A lot has been said about this card, so I will not cover the basics. However, in this build, Eternal Witness performs an extra task. When you go infinite with Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare, this also means you have infinite comes into play triggers for witness. This means you can recast every spell a zillion times, including your intuition which can tutor up your entire deck, deed the board, and allow you to recast every threat you have.
Diabolic Intent
When the best card in your deck is a single-card win condition, you want access to more of those. Demonic Tutor is a pretty good card, and in this deck, you can get some extra value out of it by sacrificing veteran explorers. This card also doubles as cabal therapy 5, 6 and 7.
Cabal Therapy
I have a great record with Meddling Mage and Cabal Therapy. Therapy is the absolute king of discard if you know your meta well enough. Next to intuition, Cabal Therapy is the best card in the deck.
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe is a really nice card. Some people might like to run Brainstorm instead, but I am currently settling for my probes.
Palinchron
Wins the game

What I currently miss
Kitchen Finks
Sometimes, I wish I had 1 extra Kitchen Finks to fuel Cabal Therapy and Diabolic Intent a little easier. The life-gain and solid body would also help buy me a lot of time. I think Finks is still better than Thragtusk, and miles better than Spike Feeder.

Selkie Hedge-mage
Selkie Hedge-mage is a wonderful card because she bounces back flipped delvers and gains life. It's an enormous tempo swing when Selkie Hedgemage resolves.

[Claymore]

Very interesting. The only thing I see is that, past Griselbrand just drawing 7-14 cards a turn, I don't see what you do with infinite Palinchron mana, and if you've been taking damage then even Griselbrand can only do so much. Have you considered throwing in a 'I win now' condition like Kokusho to cycle with Nightmare?

Yes, you should win quickly against fair decks thanks to nigh-infinite Deeds (Witness + Nightmare), but I'm concerned about those times when the unfair deck will still combo out regardless of your 2 fatties in play.

Edit: D'oh, guess I missed the part about Witness tutoring your entire deck with Intuition...which would account for everything between the Deeds and recurring discard.

[Qweerios]

That's a very interesting take on Nic Fit. It looks like a combo deck to me with a fairly weak Gigapede/Deed backup plan. How do you battle GY hate and counterspells?

Also, wow at Selkie Hedge-Mage! I didn't know that card existed and it is definitely replacing my SB Finks in my Gifts Fit deck.

[bruizar]

Graveyard hate is very easy to play through. With all those deeds and tutors you should be able to clear the. Way. Also, a tapped out player can just get intuition-> rites out of nowhere.

the deck really needs its cabal therapies against counter heavy decks and, unfair combo decks that are faster simply beat this deck from what I can tell. I haven't bothered to play against show and tell yet.

I have been thinking about including life from the loam so I can get access to lands from the sideboard (bosejiu, Karakas, ghostqaurter, volraths stronghold are the main candidates). Stronghold and quarter is especially interesting since loam will dredge into rites and a fatty eventually, so I can grind out control players with loam perhaps.

Kokusho was tried and cutted since it doesn't win on the spot. Griselbrand at least draws 7 to 14 cards and post board Griselbrand becomes elesh Norn in most of the matches.

We also tested Karn liberated, which actually wasn't that bad, but I want to keep the decks curve as normal as possible. I would consider cards like figure of destiny, level up or kicker cards but I haven't looked at those yet.

[HoneyT]

@Arianrhod

Turntimber Basilisk is GSZ-able. Pseudo-removal that works pretty well with fetches and Explorers. Problem is you have to untap with it. It's something anyway =/

@bruizar

Have you considered a transformative sideboard to make your deck less reliant on the graveyard? Boarding out the combo pieces in favor of Grave Titan, Jace and the like could be pretty good. Makes the opponents who board in yard hate have a ton of dead cards. It attacks from a different angle. Just food for thought!

[bruizar]

I haven't really considered going transformational yet. Right now, I'm more focused on thinking of a way to beat show and tell. Meddling Mage is actually very potent at combatting Show and Tell, but what I dislike is the fact that I can't really zenith for it, so I would need to dedicate multiple slots to it. That said, Meddling Mage gets progressively better in multiples (First SNT, then Burning Wish). Naming SnT and then following up with a Zenith for Teeg shuts of both Sneak attack and Show and Tell. This would give me 8 life topdecks after the first Meddling Mage (3 mage, 4 zenith, 1 teeg). They would have to board in Red Elemental Blasts / Pyroblasts in the third game to deal with Meddling Mage though, so unless you already win game 1, Meddling Mage isn't going to save you in a tournament.

[dakkon]

I played this list to a 32nd place finish at Gencon going 6-3:

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Elsepth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sigarda
1 Sun Titan
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

SB
2 ETutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wheel of Sun/Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thalia
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Revoker
1 Needle
1 Krosan Grip

Wins:
Infect (2-1)
MUD (2-0)
Elves (2-1)
Quinn (2-1)
Dredge (2-0)
Esperblade (2-1)

Losses:
RUG Delver (1-2)
Hypergenesis (1-2)
Past in Flames (0-2)

I'll probably write a more detailed report next week. The 75 was solid and my SB did a lot of work. My loss to RUG was heartbreaking as I had g2 locked up and got him down to 1 hp but then got land flooded while he drew Submerge, Delver, Delver. This puts me in the Hypergenesis bracket (and other niche combo decks) against which I stand no chance.

[PollePotDK]

Went to a local tournament yesterday, with about 17 players. It’s an event that fires every second week and is actually the main reason why there’s a Legacy scene in Aarhus, Denmark. There’s also a group of people, whom also come to these events, that organize larger events (30-50 participant) now and then, which attracts participants from Germany also, which is nice. There could be more of them, but the main reason for this is the time (they’re students) and the possibility to get rooms to the events, but the price for these, would increase the entry fee to much and would keep people away. This also influence the size of the prizes, which are smaller than those most of you can win. For me it’s ok, because I attend the events to play and have fun, because I enjoy playing Magic – not to win large prizes.

First of all the list, which is pretty much similar to Arianrhod’s list, with small modifications to match my meta. Against the fair decks I don’t see a problem with the main deck, since it covers it pretty much, but then there are the occasional Dredge deck and different Combo decks (Hive Mind, Sneak and Show, Dream Halls, Hypergenesis, ANT, T.E.S, Elves, …), which I dedicate the sideboard to. Please feel free to comment on the list compared to the meta I have described.

Main board:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Moat

1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Extirpate
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Nether Void
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Memoricide
1 Aven Mindcensor

Round 1 – T.E.S (Simon):
Crap – hate facing Storm decks. Generally hate Combo decks, except my own Hulk-Rebirth deck, which sadly enough isn't very playable in today’s meta, since it’s swamped with RUG Delver deck (also featured 3 of them yesterday), but that’s what we have Nic Fit for :smile:

Game 1:
He’s on the play and he vomits 14 Goblin tokens out on the table on turn 2. I got Top and 2 lands on board and a Therapy in graveyard by the end of my turn 2. I chump-block one of the tokens and gets two lands and start to dig for one of the seven outs I got (Deed, Rector or Moat), but even though I got a fetch land to shuffle I don’t get there.

Game 2:
I land Chains on turn 2 with the help of Enlightened Tutor and shuts of his cantrip. Two turns later I naturally draw into Nether Void and that’s all she wrote.

Game 3:
Pretty much similar to game 2, but he cabal therapy mu Chains and Nether Void, but Eternal Witness joins the party and returns the Nether Void and he scoops them up with a board state saying Him: 6 goblin tokens, Me: Eternal Witness and Nether Void with plenty of lands and a semi-full grip.

2-1
1-0

Round 2 – Combo Elves with Mirror Entity and Emy (Lasse):
Pretty good match-up, even though it’s Combo of some sort.

Game 1:
I Deed and Plows key Elves the first couple of turns – makes two mistakes, where I go for his Mirror Entity rather than his Wirewood, which probably costs me game 1. He combos and Emy comes in for 15 and rapes my board.

Games 2+3:
Humility + Curse of Death’s Hold spells GG – loving it :smile:

4-2
2-0

Round 3 – Merfolk (Martin):

Game 1:
Mulligans to 6 and keeps a very slow hand – probably should have mulliganed to 5. 3 Lands, Thragtusk, Rector and Deed. He’s on the play and by turn 4 he’s beating for 13. I scoop when he counters my Rector for Moat.

Game 2:
I Deed him out two times and land Baneslayer, which gets Gilded Draked. I top a Plow for that and Fierce Empath, Gilded Drake and Rector beats until Sigarda joins the party and he scoops.

Game 2 went long and had about 13 minuts left on the clock for game 3

Game 3:
Pretty good opener with 3 or 4 lands, 2 Deeds and something else. I control the board and he’s floated with Gilded Drakes and Phantasmal Images with an empty board. Unfortunately time is called when I land Baneslayer Angel and we shake hands for the draw.

5-3-1
2-0-1

Round 4 – MUD (Felix):
Felix use to play Lands.dec and actually finished in 16th place out of 1350 or so participants at GP Ghent this year, so I knew I was up for a fight. I knew he played MUD, since he had asked for some cards before the tournament started, but either way I thought I was favored against both decks.

Game 1:
He’s on the play and starts with Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith. I had forest into Top – not impressive. Then the following happens. He thinks for a while before play a land into Wurmcoil Engine and then says “that wasn’t probably not the correct play”. I draw a Veteran Explorer I think. Plays it sac it to Phyrexian Tower, finds two plains and tops in hope of find one of my two Plows. I see both (lucky me :smile:) and it’s goodbye Wurmcoil. I then Therapy him naming Kudoltha Forgemaster and hits two in his hand and he’s pretty much crippled from that point on I think to myself. He draws into enough lands that he can land Sundering Titan and destroys my lands. I top into more Explorers and with Phyrexian Tower I eventual gets there after numerous mistakes, because I lose sight of the board state with two Chalice (@1 and @3) and my big ass graveyeard.

Game 2:
This was a pretty epic game for me. I keep 3 lands, Top, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy and some other card I can’t remember. Needless to say, if he go turn 1 Chalice @1 I’m screwed. He mulled to 6 and go Cavern go – dodges that bullet. I go Therapy naming Chalice and miss. He goes Revoker naming Top. My turn draw another Cabal Therapy. Play Veteran Explorer. Flashback Therapy for lands naming Greaves hitting two and follow up with the other therapy naming Kudoltha Forgemaster leaving him with a Spellskite in hand. He plays that next turn and I Deed my turn + Rector -> he scoops.

7-3-1
3-0-1

There should have been 5 rounds, but player 17 came in later and was registered after the Tournament Organizer had posted pairings and didn’t repair – so 4 rounds. I took the 2nd place and won 3 M13 boosters (yes – 3 boosters, read the top part again :wink:) and got a Thragtusk in one of them, so that was pretty nice.

I love this version – I know it can be slow if you do not hit a Veteran or GSZ in the tart, but the versatility it provides is godlike. Yes, GODLIKE I think.

Thanks for all the hard work most of you have put into this deck and posted in this Thread. It’s really helping my playing – I’m reading with great interest. Sadly, I can’t contribute with very much, since I do not have the time to playtest that much because of work and a kid at home, but will shared with you what I got, when I got it :smile:

Hope the reading is good.

/PollePotDK

[Arianrhod]

@PollePot -- What's your opinion on the Kokusho vs Yosei debate?

Sad Sac seems pretty terrible. If you kick it, you just win, obviously....but that's not going to happen most of the time vs the decks you would board it in against. Only being able to take 3 copies of something just kills it for me. Sure, taking 3 of Sneak's Emrakuls is neat and all, but there's still one left. I'd rather just run Cranial and know that the deed is done.

How was the Mindcensor? In my experience he's been only "okay."

@Dakkon -- how was Sorin? I've thought about trying him a few times, but I've never pulled the trigger.

@Bruizar -- that is definitely a different take. It feels a little glassy-cannony to me, but I can definitely see how explosive it would be. I forgot that Palinchron makes infinite mana with Nightmare. Definitely something to keep in mind. I also feel that you probably could benefit from something that wins the game on the spot...maybe a Time Warp, for infinite turns? Obviously having infinite mana forever is going to tend to win games, but I think if I were to play a full-combo version like that, I wouldn't want to give my opponent time to figure a way out of the hole he's in. Things have a tendency of going wrong the longer the game goes.

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried an Accumulated Knowledge engine with the Intuition shell? Obviously that would be with more of a control ethic than a combo one, but it seems like it would be worth investigating.

@Qweerios -- I'm not sure you want the Hedge-mage. Your version really only splashes blue slightly....how often are you going to have the two Islands to use its bounce effect? If you can take advantage of that then I agree that it's better than Finks, but if not, I like Finks better still. Resolving that with both halves active does sound entertaining to do to RUG, though.

------

In other news, Caleb Durward played GB at Gencon. His list, from his latest article on CFB:

Main Deck
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grave Titan
1 Hornet Queen
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nature's Lore
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Smallpox
2 Hornet Queen
1 Nature's Ruin
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Hymn to Tourach


Apparently he's on the Hornet Queen train too, now. I still say it's bad. The extra copies are sb vs Sneak/Show, apparently. He's testing Smallpox vs RUG, which is amusing in its effectiveness. He's also coming to the same conclusion that I am -- the archetype needs a backup ramp source in the deck. He's opting for Nature's Lore, which makes sense since he isn't running Nightmare. I'd rather have the extra bodies for Nightmare, but if I was opting out of that engine, I can definitely see Nature's Lore. Or Three Visits for pimp points.

His full report is up on CFB, located here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-an-inside-look-at-legacy-champs/

I'll be at GP Boston this weekend, hunting pimp and grinding side events. I'll also have all three of my Nic Fit decks with me, so if you see someone running Nic Fit on a Havengul Lich mat with two Jupiter Top8 pins in the upper right hand corner, that's me....feel free to introduce yourself and chat a bit =)

[Claymore]

3 Hornet Queens? Do Show and Tell players not side out Show and Tell that often? The most of the ones at my shop don't, and in testing keeping Show and Tell in makes the deck much easier to beat. Otherwise, depending solely on Sneak Attack makes the deck much more lethal against us, which becomes complicated by Leyline of Sanctity...

[dakkon]

@Arianrhod: Sorin has been good. There's been some discussion about him a while back. Elspeth is arguably the better card but WW can be prohibitory and so I run Sorin over a second Elspeth. The pump emblem is relevant although I don't use it very often. I just tick him up and control the board. With so much removal, it's pretty easy to ultimate him. In non-combo matches, I only worry about Jace and Sorin is a pretty good out vs active mind sculptor.

[Star|Scream]

@qweerios I'm assuming Shardless Agent has been tested and discussed before?

Was there any consensus in a BUG list?

EDIT:

Thinking more about it, Agent into GSZ is pretty much a nonbo unless you put arbor back in.

Agent into Ooze is decent, Therapy or Explorer seem fine, top works as well, but innocent blood could be hit or miss.

[Arianrhod]

We haven't tried or discussed Shardless, but I'm pretty sure he's automatically dimissed because of the lack of amazing things to cascade into. Bloodbraid is better than Shardless is (cmc 4 -> Deed, Pulse, Witness, Empath, etc), and nobody touches that card. Nonbo with GSZ is an absolute killer, and hitting an Explorer isn't exactly wonderful, since at the point at which you're casting Agent, an explorer has probably already gone off.

That said, Shardless -> Hymn is a beating. A ferocious, ferocious beating.

[Claymore]

Shardless Agent...interesting. You're more hopeful to try and get Coiling Oracle or Hymn, but like you say the problem you run into is that the deck will generally have 3-4 GSZ in it and otherwise has quite a few cards that you don't want to cascade into. It has interesting synergy with Sensei's Top, but since you can't GSZ it (has to be cast) and the card itself has low power, I don't know if I like it.

However, the deck could be adjusted to accommodate and abuse several of these guys though...Meddling Mage, Diabolic Intent (does that work to avoid the creature sac?), Eldamari's Call...overall load up on 2cc accel/tempo/setup cards while bypassing your fatties since you can't cast those guys anyway.

[Arianrhod]

No....Diabolic Intent sacrifices a creature as an additional part of the cost, which means you would still have to pay it when you cascade into it.

[bruizar]

Guys,

I came into this thread with a comment about the deck's origins and I feel the need to elaborate on this. This is important for me and my crew who have put in many hours of labor into this deck. Here are the relevant quotes in this thread concerning the origins of the deck:



As an aside, our testing group brought this deck to MWS about half a year before the Amsterdam GP which was during that time that the Nic Fit archetype was coined. It was obviously an imitation of the original deck my test crew had designed, as it had most of the elements except for the fact that the role of the deck is totally different. Our deck was a combo deck that accelerated the gamestate and could still win with a good plan B if the combo would be folded, or combo out when the creatures couldn't fend off the aggression. The decks that have spawned from this original deck are the lists you see in this thread. These decks are more rockstyle decks and are not high impact enough for tier 1 legacy play imo.


Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:

-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.

This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.

Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.


I really don't want to join in on the flame-war, but you really don't have any right of saying anything without actually giving us a list with card choices etc. explained and testing results.


My brother, known on this forum as KMS, was the first to propose the engine in the Aluren thread. My brother played aluren before what was ultimately coined nic-fit. In the Aluren thread, more than 1 year ago, the engine was proposed for the Aluren build.

Source-link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2599-Deck-Aluren&p=512666#post512666



01-07-2011 02:41 AM#759
KMS
Member
Join Date
Mar 2009
Posts
11
Re: [Deck] Aluren
Great post Manadrain

On topic
As for mana acceleration I won't be using bop/mox/spirit guides.. Instead this is what I use, in my experiance the synergy is outstanding.

Veteran Explorer
Academy Rector
+
Diabolic Intent
Cabal Therapy
Slaugterpact
Phyrexian Tower. This land is insane. It does this, Turn 2 `add 5 mana of any color to your manapool` Wich means you can pay for daze, cast therapy when you put in aluren, else with Rector you can cast therapy and go of anyways.


Also I think show and tell is the best matchup against Aluren.. they help you go off quite efficiantly. If you happen to loose game 1 then on game 2 you should win for sure, if not try to mulligan to at least aluren, In my built I either need aluren or a ractor, versus emraku rector goes to removed when emraku attacks and then I go off




11-29-2010 11:40 AM#721
KMS
Member
Join Date
Mar 2009
Posts
11
Re: [Deck] Aluren
Originally Posted by KMS
.
Veteran explorer is great Cabal Therapy feed as well for diaboic intent.
The singleton Hymn is a tutor target, for example:
Veteran Explorer in play, cast tutor, search 2x swamp search hymn and cast.

The Rishadan Cutpurse whipes the board versus protective cards.


Counter top and gaddock teeg kills me.. any ideas ?



Originally Posted by kiblast
i'd like to introduce Diabolic intent and Veteran explorer in Aluren...try it is amazing. 90% of the times provides all you need to go off next turn. Veteran is also good with cabal therapies.


How do you mean you like to introduce since it already is introduced... don't run off and take credits on stuffs you dd not invent.. some people might feel tricked you see


Our deck, which was still in-the-brew, was being tested on MWS extensively. A lot of players, among them many judges, have played against him and asked about the deck. One of those players was Vincent Bonnevialle, who was testing for BoM in Annecy.

And, for the dutch speakers, here is proof of a facebook post I made to tell my group it wasn't smart to play the deck on MWS when we had it sleeved right here in our gauntlet.



Yo gasten.

Ik heb al 2 lijsten publiek gezien met veteran explorer. Echt niet handig hoor, dat testen op MWS. Tegen de tijd dat de GP Amsterdam is kent iedereen dat deck inmiddels al...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Nic-Fit-%28GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20962-Infinate-Persist&p=553049#post553049
Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
www.mtgthesource.com
This is a Rock style control deck based on Veteran Explorer, Green Sun's Zenith and classic Green White Black control elements mixed with a few goodies from the newer editions. I will explain the deck's strategy and what I found in testing with a card by card explanation card. // Lands 4 V
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · May 28, 2011 at 1:13am

***** Ok niet chill, ik ga het deck niet meer op MWS spelen... Wel arelaxed zeg..
May 28, 2011 at 4:34am · Like

ME http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20990-Mono-G-Veteran-Explorer
May 28, 2011 at 10:43am · Like

ME Infinite persist lijkt heel erg op ****'s deck
May 28, 2011 at 10:44am · Like


As you can see, these facebook posts were made 15 hours after the Nic Fit thread was made (created on 05-27-2011 09:07 AM). This should be enough proof to validate our efforts in the archetype. We've put in many hours of testing and it feels pretty bad to be brushed off by others as a 'troll'. Those who were inspired by either the MWS games or the Aluren thread should be man enough to give credit where it's due.

Many of the cards proposed in this thread were also tested by us long ago. Some of these cards include Kokusho and Sun Titan, but they were ultimately cut for being redundant/clunky/unfocused/inconsistent. The Intuition list I posted is the result of a long cycle of tests and was ultimately deemed by us as the most powerful engine. That said, our players have had differences on opinions on Gitaxian Probe vs Brainstorm, the focus of zenith targets vs silver bullets, and Diabolic Intent.

I would, on behalf of our dedicated players, appreciate the recognition for our efforts into the archetype, backed by the proof given in this post.

KMS was the first to build the framework of the explorer engine
Mtgthesource member Mantis has contributed to the deck immensely by giving it the palinchron win condition.
I simply tested a lot and proposed changes. The unburial rites package was introduced by me, but was actually proposed by a clever user in the Innistrad spoiler thread who's name I cannot come up with now.

[Arianrhod]

I hope you can at least respect our (maybe just my?) position too, though, Bruizar. I have no doubt at all that you guys were working on your thing too, and I have no problem including that in the primer and getting you recognition for your build. For most, if not all of us, when you randomly posted saying that this was your deck, we'd never heard of you or anything you'd done. We've been working hard on our lists, our versions for equally quite a long time now. I hope you can see where that could come off as rather offensive.

Again, I have no problem with accrediting you guys your version. In my opinion, the more versions of this deck and the more people that are willing to discuss it intelligently and contribute to its growth, the better. I'm actually intensely proud of this thread and the sense of community that we, as Nic Fit players, have. We've generated almost 100 pages of quality discourse in just over a year, and that's no mean feat. What I do have a problem with is when any one person tries to lay claim to someone else's work. This archetype is a community effort, and I will never disavow anyone their contributions. Just don't make heavy-handed statements and we'll get along fine. Keep in mind that at the end of the day, regardless of when anyone first thought up the Cabal Therapy / Veteran Explorer interaction at the core of the deck, most of us in this thread thought of the interaction on our own, built our own decks around it, and then came here to refine and tune. It's as much mine as it is yours, as it is Tao's, as it is Qweerios's, as it is Durward's, as it is HoneyT's, as it is Higashi's, as it is Claymore's, as it is Megadeus's, as it is Alexeezay's, as it is Phillipp's, and Dakkon's and Pollepot's and Architect's and Greenpoe's. The list goes on and on. I value every single contribution in this thread. I may not agree with them all, but I value them still.

So while I think it's great that you guys have your version, have built it up from scratch and tested it, tuned it, ran it, won with it and lost with it...it isn't JUST yours. It's ours, too, and I would no sooner exclude you from the community of Nic Fit than I would anyone else that has posted in this thread. You have as much of a right to be here as any of the rest of us: no more, no less.

[bruizar]

@Arianrhod:

I would appreciate a mention in the primer greatly. The reason why I am posting here at all is because I do see this as a community effort. We all get inspiration from somewhere, and that's not a big deal. Some people may have seen a post or played an MWS game, but others might just have had the same idea at the same time, it happens. Regardless of whether you got it from your own flash of insight, or from others, we all share a similar fascination for the explorer-engine and we're all spending our time to make this deck function the best way it can. I mean, I didn't invent the unburial rites combo either, I just placed it in this framework that was already handed to me by KMS and Mantis at the time.

We kept our list a secret because we wanted to bring it to the GP in Amsterdam and release it after that. Our intention for this deck is to grow and become a viable tier 1 or 1.5 deck. I provided proof of my statements to show that I am being truthful about what I am claiming here. Obviously I am not trying to undo the efforts that you guys have collectively done here the past year. I hope you can include our project-amsterdam in the primer, and that it will be adopted as one of the 4 Nic-Fit routes of choice (intuition/gifts/scapewish/rector). There is a lot of love for this type of deck and this is generally a very good sign. Let's not turn this into sour bickering and try to work together to optimize the lists even further.

Future of the deck
As for the future of this deck, I am very excited about the advent of Return to Ravnica as we have 2 great zenith tribes to play with: Seleysnia (tokens?=therapy/nightmare fodder) and Golgari (contracts?graveyard?=intuition/gifts fodder). I am willing to make a small bet that this archetype will get some decent printings in the coming weeks.

Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe deserves more attention in this thread, especially if you're on the Meddling Mage plan post board. That card is seriously good and I'm even thinking of cutting a deed / intent for the 3rd or 4th extra gitaxian probes.

[Megadeus]

I originally saw the durward article and read about the deck. I told my self if I ever built a legacy deck this would be it (at a time when even building a tier standard deck for me wasn't possible). Then everyone at my LGS began to play legacy, mostly maverick and UR Delver because the guy who won 2 opens with UR plays here a lot. It is nice having a deck that smashes everything I play against haha. But all in all I never had this idea, I just love the idea of disruption and pernicious deed.

While I haven't really contributed any original ideas to the thread, I am always up to discuss anything no matter how awful it seems! It's great when I spread my deck out and people just look at it and call it a pile of trash. All the better to hear when I smash face!

[PollePotDK]

@Arianrhod:

With regard to Sadistic Sacrement it has proven to be effective to take out key cards in opponents deck that's 1 or 2-offs, but I can understand the point taking out 3 out of 4 cards. Makes no sense. Actually I haven't had Cranial Extraction in my "collection", but is on the way from a US dealer, and will be included in the SB. But will not write of the Sadistic Sacrement completely though.

Kokusho vs Yosei? It's a bit hard I think. The first build I had with Recurring Nightmare/Rector package included both, but was to much and ended up including Kokusho because of the not-targed life loss and life-gain. My meta have Lands.dec and Enchantress where Kokusho has proven to be effective because of Glacial Chasm (Lands.dec) and Solitary Conefinement (Enchantress), whereas we would be almost dead on board else. But where could Yosei be good? Tapping permanents and denying the opponent to untap is great, but isn't it just going to stall their progress or to launch an alpha-strike to win? I haven't tested Yosei to much to write him of completely, see him as an lategame option, where we should have the control already.

Actually I did side Kokusho out a lot a the tournament two days ago, because when I had him (or drew Fierce Empath) I would rather have another card or Sun Titan, so maybe I will try him out and report back, but will first have results in a week or two.

/PollePotDK

[eq.firemind]

I am working on build that utilizes excess mana on aggression and disruption instead of gaining control (something like Eva Green on steroids). In that build, Gitaxian Probe also works wonders, effectievly turning a Cabal Therapy into cheaper and better Hymn to Tourach and providing so much needed information.

Since it also works soo good for bruizar's comboish approach, the card seems to be more attractive if you choose to build less controlish Nic Fit.

[Claymore]

Firemind, I also have a build that goes balls out on mana accel. I'm having a bit of trouble on giving the deck some direction that can't be disrupted by the increasingly popular Karakas (Oona, Ob Nixilis). I have additional accel in the form of Culling the Weak and Collective Voyage, which pump out Phyrexian Obliterators and landfall creatures (Rampaging Baloth, Ob Nixilis) in addition to Prime and Grave Titans. I used to run Oona but she is sometimes too delicate, although I might just replace her again since her ability is awesome and she can help stabilize a board...

What's the aim of your deck?

By the way, have decks with Primeval Titan/Grave Titan ever considered either Arena or Contested Cliffs for removal? Cliffs would require red and beasts, which we only really run Thragtusk or Garruk 1 or 2, but is a better land and something to think about. Would work well with Viridian Emissary and Eternal Witness to shoot delvers, and Grave Titan will kill almost anything in the Arena with his Deathtouch.

Btw, a 2x of Viridian Emissary seems to be helping my Rector Fit inplace of disruption.

[Alexeezay]

Yay, split 1st/2nd with Valakut/Scapewish nicfit at our local tournament today. I won a ger. white boarded Plateau.
2-1 vs Bant Maverick w/ Punishing Fire
2-1 vs Jund Nic Fit
2-1 vs Shardless Agent BUG America
2-0 vs UW Miracle Control
& Draw against Merfolk, a very skilled local who might have won. Turns out I lost 0-2 when we played for the First Pick (Prize) because g1 he was too fast and tempo'd me out, g2 I got flooded heavily despite having a Sensei's Divining Top.
Awkward that I won every game via Scapeshift, never had the chance to beat down with big guys...

ps: I played Arianrhod's list but replaced a Huntmaster with Wickerbough Elder. I also tried the SB Phyrexian Arena but only resolved/drew it once against jund fit & he killed it right away with W.Elder. It should be good against Miracle and Esper Blade in theory...

[bruizar]

Awkward that I won every game via Scapeshift, never had the chance to beat down with big guys...
Unsurprising to me. it's a 1-card kill condition. The thing that is holding back the lists in this thread is the use of redundant fatties. It's time you guys start cutting chaff like Thragtusk.

congrats on the split

[Alexeezay]

Yea I know. "Awkward" should have been "funny" because a lot of my opponents were shocked when they saw this win condition they never thought of would ruin their day, haha. But they took it with a smile and had fun.

[Koby]

blahblah blah

Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy is an old interaction. It was played in a way old school Planeswalker Rock around the time when Shards of Alara was first printed. You weren't the first to find this interaction.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16650-Planeswalker-Rock
Circa February, 2010.

Please stop bringing your ego into the deck history. It's not useful or productive.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Valakut is actually my favorite ice cream.

You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.

[damionblackgear]

You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.

:) Love it.

This deck was a rock variant/update that simply changed Birds to Explorer. Not much has changed (except efficiency) since them. Luckily, nobody remembers... NEVER FORGET (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?728-Deck-The-Rock-Adapted-to-Legacy&p=216385&viewfull=1#post216385).

[Philipp2293]

Oh how I loved Planeswalker Rock :) Sadly, it was even easier to go to time with that build ;)

[Julian23]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16650-Planeswalker-Rock
Circa February, 2010.

I've seen Michael "Wuaschti" Thiel of Germany been playing Veteran Explorer/Therapy as early as 2007 in Germany.

[bruizar]

Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy is an old interaction. It was played in a way old school Planeswalker Rock around the time when Shards of Alara was first printed. You weren't the first to find this interaction.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16650-Planeswalker-Rock
Circa February, 2010.

Please stop bringing your ego into the deck history. It's not useful or productive.
An interaction doesn't make up for an entire deck. Decks get their identity not by a single interaction but by the strategy it is trying to execute. Not every deck with Brainstorm + Force of Will = Esperblade, or for that matter a control deck.

Swords to Plowshares, nor 7 planeswalkers, nor Sensei's Divining Top, nor Thoughtseize nor the Kitchen Finks belong in the strategy.

Did explorer / therapy exist before? Well, Since apocalypse was released in 2001, judgment in 2002 and weatherlight in 1997, of course this existed before. These individual cards say very little about the strategy of the deck. Luckily, the link you posted outlines the deck's philosophy:


Deck's Philosophy
The main idea of the deck is to chumpblock, sword, discard, choose your draw with top during the first turns. The opponent will be enclined or urged to play several threats. Once he does, we sweep the board with deed. If the opponent still does not want to (or can't) overextend, we start to play Planeswalkers. From here, he'll die if he does not find any solution. Don't forget that you don't care at all to lose your creatures. So chumpblock to gain time. Don't hasistate to play witness in order to find your 4th land drop too. The deck has enough redundancy to deal with almost everything. Just focus in expadning your mana base during the first turns.

What happens if Deed gets discarded or coutnered? Here Witness comes into play.
What happens if you can't find Deed? It usually means you've found a lot of other stuff. The Recurring Nightmare plan is also very effective and the Planeswalker are always difficult to get through. The deck is not that much Deed dependant actually.

Did you notice that this deck is completely Spell Snare proof? you can argue that it's a bad curve but you'd be wrong. The deck plays enough 1CC spells and top to know what to do with its mana for the 2 first turns. If you don't get 2 manas by turn 3, you're anyway in deep shit. But don't worry, this does not happen often.


I'd like to highlight The main idea of the deck is to chumpblock, sword, discard, choose your draw with top during the first turns.

That is an entirely different strategic direction compared to what Nic Fit does, today. The strategy is to accelerate into the late game, so that early-game/mid-game plays are outclassed by late game bombs. This is, at the same time, the weakness of Nic Fit, because it lures players into running expensive cards that are only playable once your veteran explorers trigger, thus needlessly leading you into hands that you have to mulligan and opening you up to a stifle-blowout.

Please don't tell me anything about bringing my ego into this. I am coming up for others who have put their blood sweat and tears into the deck, and while I have also worked on the deck, my own contributions are mostly limited to the (existing) Unburial Rites package and a non-graveyard combo kill. I have not claimed to invent either Nic Fit nor the Unburial Rites package. What I claim is that my friends have worked on this since 2010. Before this thread was created, they tested extensively on MWS for hours a day (4 / 5 hours) for at least several weeks that I know of. Against my advice they proceeded to test online until I stumbled upon this thread 15 hours after its creation. The strategic direction of the opening thread was the same as the deck that we were playing, although we gradually shifted into a combo deck with deed+beatdown fallback plan after realizing that the higher curve just makes the deck more inconsistent.

That said, regardless of the strategic differences, it would be a very good idea to mention the builds that utilized the veteran explorer engine in the past in the opening page. Not only does it give credit to those who have found the interaction in the past, it also gives people that are new to the deck a historical overview of the evolution of some of the most important cards in the deck. If you see anything wrong with accurately describing the history of a deck, I would be very interested to know your reasons for this.




You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.
Fine, go and derail the thread. If you want the next 96 pages of this thread to turn into a big flame / troll and undo the efforts of everyone in this thread for the last year, get on the flamewagon.



:) Love it.

This deck was a rock variant/update that simply changed Birds to Explorer. Not much has changed (except efficiency) since them. Luckily, nobody remembers... NEVER FORGET (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?728-Deck-The-Rock-Adapted-to-Legacy&p=216385&viewfull=1#post216385).

Please read above 2 replies to Koby and Randomgestures as they both apply to you as well.

[Viridia]

I'm very interested in your version of the deck Bruizar, you keep dropping in here that you have an amazing combo-kill but i don't think i have actually seen the full decklist yet?

[Alexeezay]

I think it's the Gifts Ungiven+Unburial Rites version he postet 1-2 pages ago.
But I don't see how it's a very amazing combo kill...Griselbrand and Palinchron are vulnerable to removal & there is no card in the deck list to use the infinite mana from Palinchron lol... Maybe add a Storm card(Tendrils,Grapeshot) or X-mana kill spell ?
But then you're probably just better off playing a fast combo deck like SneakShow or ANT/TES.

[Viridia]

Yeah that's why i'd be interested in a full list, just to see what is actually going on exactly.

[bruizar]

Palinchron is used to generate infinite mana for infinite recurring nightmare swaps for infinite eternal witness triggers. Between Diabolic Intent, Intuition and Gitaxian Probe, there is enough draw to grab your entire deck, cabal therapy and pernicious deed every card, then swing for lethal.

The non-graveyard dependent combo utilizes Phantasmal Image with Palinchron, which also generates infinite mana, but without the need for a graveyard. If you have a deed, you can blow the deed for infinite and replay 2 4/5 flyers after you've bounced them before blowing up the pernicious deed. At that point, pretty much any tutor (GSZ/Intuition/Intent+Arbor) draws you into a combo win, though 2x 4/5 on an empty board is usually enough to win.

Griselbrand is used as the preboard 'vanilla' reanimate target, but he may be swapped in exchange for Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or non-legendary creatures such as Woodfall Primus. Griselbrand buries your opponent in card advantage and is usually enough to win the game with, though I'm still considering swapping this out for something else.

Also, quiet often, the first intuition is used to find 3 Cabal Therapies and the first Diabolic Intent is used to find the miser Hymn to Tourach.

I'll be posting an updated list in the thread soon.

edit:



I think it's the Gifts Ungiven+Unburial Rites version he postet 1-2 pages ago.
But I don't see how it's a very amazing combo kill...Griselbrand and Palinchron are vulnerable to removal & there is no card in the deck list to use the infinite mana from Palinchron lol... Maybe add a Storm card(Tendrils,Grapeshot) or X-mana kill spell ?
But then you're probably just better off playing a fast combo deck like SneakShow or ANT/TES.

I use intuition instead of gifts ungiven, because the packages of intuition are better and the card is cheaper to cast. You don't need a storm card, because it's redundant. Opening with Tendrils of Agony / Grapeshot = auto mulligan. Same for burn spells except maybe Bonfire of the Damned, but I'm not running red. I can put at least 27 power on the table, leave the opponent with 0 cards in hand and 0 on the board. That is more than enough to win. Even in the off-chance that my UW miracles opponent topdecks a terminus, I can bounce Palinchron and Phantasmal Image in response and just hard-cast+attack him to death. That is basically the worst thing that can happen and it can only happen out of sheer luck against 1 deck out of all of the decks in Legacy. I can assure you that even if this worst-case scenario occurs, I will still win with 2 4/5 flyers that can bounce in response to removal.

[Megadeus]

Honestly who cares who created what? It's obvious we will never all agree on the origins on the deck, and now two pages have been wasted bitching at each other about some stupid non sense. It's a magic deck. Stop wasting your time over this.

[bruizar]

@Megadeus

Sent from your Samsung device

[damionblackgear]

Please read above 2 replies to Koby and Randomgestures as they both apply to you as well.

I'll write you a PM instead of respond. Koby and RG, you're both going to be added as well since you were both called on as well, delete it if you want. Hope you're fine with that.

I'll just sum up the non history lesson part here. --> I don't think this is the thread for a combo based deck.

[Megadeus]

@Megadeus

Sent from your Samsung device

?

[Qweerios]

Now, I have not given any attention to the copyright war going on in this thread for the past few days simply because, well, it is pointless. What I did do, however, is test Bruizar's ideas to see how they work. Sadly, it doesn't turn out positive. Once I show my opponents how the deck functions, it is a piece of cake to disrupt and take appart.
It is a combo deck with no library manipulation, very little protection considering it is a turn 3-4 combo (quite inconsistently I might add) that gives your opponent a full turn to anwer and will fold to sweepers and/or removal. Post-board against any blue based deck with any form of GY hate is near impossible to win.

Overall, it is an interesting take on the Nic Fit archetype that could be more viable in the future given different cards. Intuition/Unburial makes for a nice NO/Prog alternative win condition in a otherwise slow and meticulous deck. Given the current Legacy card pool, I think that going for speed and a pure combo approach (because face it, this is what this deck is) is a mistake. 4 Deeds + Gigapede and Palinchron beatdown is a sad excuse for a backup plan.

On a more constructive note, try a singleton Exsanguinate in your deck to win on the spot. Coiling Oracle and Baleful Strix also act as cantrips/ramp/blockers and give you valuable time to set up your combo. They also work in a loop with Palinchron and Nightmare to allow you to draw your entire deck without Gitaxian Probe (-1 card to the combo). They also give you more bodies for Intent. Furthermore, even though Hymn fits the Explorer/Intent curve better, Thoughtseize is superior for obvious reasons when you are trying to win via a combo. Tutoring for a Meddling Mage may also be just as good if not better.

It pains me to say this so bluntly, but if so much "blood, sweat, and tears" were put into assembling this deck, it is poorly constructed and very much feels like a product of wishful thinking. Maverick, RUG Delver, Sneak Show, Reanimator, Miracle, and sometimes even Merfolk and Goblins completely walk over this deck pre and post board.

[Claymore]

I took GBw Rector to a tournament and got favorably match ups, ended up splitting first. I ran a single Viridian Emissary as backup to Explorer (all I could find) and had a single Gaddock Teeg main board. Teeg, while not always the friendliest with GSZ, actually does help us a lot since he stops Force of Will and we run enough mana to outstrip the soft counters that decks run. He also helps stop Jace and Elspeth, not to mention giving us a surprise stop to combo decks game 1.

Bant Control (Jace, KotR, Stoneforge) went to time and a draw for game 1 with him at 40+ life w/ Batterskull/stone forge and me at 18 looping a constant Thragtusk and Witness looping with Nightmare for Deed or Maelstrom Pulse. Thragtusk was essential for stabilizing my board. Teeg hilariously stopped an attempted Temporal Mastery miracle that would have won the game.

Other matches were generally inconsequential for development.

Semifinals I got matched against the Bant again but won this time, and Nightmare proved to be essential to these wins. Kokusho was never really required when I was throwing down Grave Titan, and generally Bant had Karakas anyway. Kokusho would have been key for massive life swings to finish the game against a stalemate board, but never got to that point. Sigarda was the key kill card in both games I won, coming out to kill a Jace and flying over a stalled ground. Grave got exiled whenever I had him out.

Viridian Emissary was surprisingly useful in game 3 as I awkwardly took the aggro roll against a slow board state, swinging with Pridemage, Emissary, and Explorer and served to pressure a Jace as well.

[Qweerios]

I believe that Kokusho and Yosei are complete crap for this deck. Sure they do cute things with Nightmare and Moat, but I would choose Hornet Queen over either of those in a heartbeat.

[KMS]

Well I have played at two tournaments with a combo built, a little different then the list Bruizar posted and man it is fun to play!
Im missing some cards in the list that were key for me.
I did play kokusho and karn, kokusho and woodfall primus, kan well it just karn. Woodfall primus and kokusho well right now there are just better solutions.

The hard to beat games for me we tempo trash and combo elves. But with bothe iona and engineered plaque in sb thats not a problem. Though still I think tempo trash can be to disruptive.. I did not have problems at all with the meta at that time. Reanimate, show and tell, maverick, goblins, merfolk, team america, mud builts, land and ANT, thought ANt was a trick shot since that deck os pure explosiveness and you have to disrupt turn 1. At least in my experiance.. At the GP I won from ANT, lost from delver and lost a match due to terroble unfortunate shuffelibg one time screwed the other flooded.. We rematched friendly and he dindt had a chanche and realised how luck he was and how unfortunate i was

I followed this thread only for the last week. I have talked with bruizar about missing essential cards in the list. And I am sure he will add them with in a future post.

For me my deck has always been, warp to mid late game, dark disrupt, combo. With a backupplan and I had as beaters the primus, kokusho, palinchron and ooze And witness plus unearth is a nice addition.

I have tested many many many cards for a really long time. The hardest part of the deck for me was the manabase.
I do believe the combo built is superior versus a more agressive aproach.

Cards that the deck doenst like are extirpate and stifle. No other card has been a pain to disrupt the deck, and you dont want to run in high tide=)

[ReinVos]

@ Qweerios

Then I'm not sure you've implemented Bruizar's ideas in a decklist that functions well if this is your analysis of the deck.
You claim there's no library manipulation. The guys I play with (and it's their ideas, I was just a sparring partner) had cards ranging from Brainstorm, Diabolic Intent, Intuition and Jace. This is top of the bill library manipulation.

The archetype this particular build belongs in is combo/control. The Intuitions don't automatically go for Unburial Rites, Gigapede and reanimate target. They can be used for dozens of combinations of targets. It's nice to win games quickly once you've established control and it's great to be able to have a card in your deck (Intuition) that does this.

Graveyard hate is a nuisance but unlike other graveyard based combo decks (Reanimator, Dredge) it has the control-type tools to knock out graveyard hate (Deed blows up stuff like Relics and Leylines and Therapy gets rid of sandbagged cards or stuff like Ravenous Trap/Macabre) before you set up your kill. It's much easier than it looks to play around graveyard hate. If the opponent tries to stop your ''combo'' by aggressively boarding in hate, it will slow their deck down as well. This plays right into the control plan, which makes it easier to naturally develop your board, get rid of the hate, and go from there.

Playing this deck as a combo deck is just plain silly. Very rarely you'll just flat out try to combo the opponent on turn three or four. It's better to take control of the game by attacking the hand, chump blocking for value and setting up a strong manabase, which makes Deed a powerful weapon. From there on your Intuitions and Witnesses become deadly weapons, which can be used to close the game once you've stabilized and have enough lands in play. So, in that sense this is very much a Nic Fit deck, it just operates differently once it gets to the point where you can get value out of your higher costed cards.

[Viridia]

I'm still just really interested in the decklist aswell as more explanation of the things you intend to do with it aswell as testing results, as i haven't seen any tournament results yet.

[Qweerios]

@ReinVos,

Perhaps you should try and read Bruizar's post where he reveals his intuition combos, his decklist, and how the deck works. I don't know what lists you and your friends play, but I know what lists the people that post in this thread play. I tested Bruizar's list because it was appealing, and attempted to improve it by adding Brainstorm and Jace (because those are not part of his list). The fact remains that the deck has only one main way to win the game, and it is via a GY dependant, removable, and counterable combo. The only discard is Cabal Therapy and there is no way to interact with the stack. Jace will never ultimate for the kill because 4X Deeds + Witnesses is not enough to guarantee that. Hell, even when you try and dedicate the entire deck to controling the board with Jace it fails because Nic Fit never touches the stack. The deck cannot pack enough control elements to be a dedicated control deck, and the combo isn't fast and resilient enough to be more reliable than say, a Grave Titan or a Sigarda. Also, the cards that make up the combo are sub-par while attempting to play the control game. Deed becomes a failsafe for silver bullets because the deck no longer operates on card exchanges, and that's a poor use of Deed if you ask me. You can always try to play the control game and grind your opponent out, but Gigapede will only go so far...

I think that the biggest flaw in the deck, is that it trades all of its favorable matchups in favor of improving the unfavorable ones to a point where they are more even. Traditional Nic Fit has aproximately a 90%+ win rate against Maverick and RUG (throw in DnT and other non-tribal aggro decks), and that is the only reason why it ever was a tier 1 deck. The advent of Thragtusk made the RUG, UR Delver, and Burn MUs nearly impossible to lose. With the more combo approach, those decks are now back in their comfort zone where they actually have tools to disrupt us and we have less to disrupt them. Miracle is now officialy nearly impossible to beat because they will passively ramp while the deck applies no pressure whatsoever and deny every single attempt at pressuring them because they will have complete control over the stack. Our control elements over the board when dilluted have no impact over a dedicated control deck that controls primarily the stack, and secondly the board... Yes, you can combo out another combo deck before they combo you, but if that represents the majority of your meta, by all means, play a different deck.

[H]

Sorry to break up the dispute about who invented what and all that, but I am new to Nic Fit and have a question.

Why Wickerbough Elder in some builds? Why not Viridian Shaman, or Acidic Slime? Just because it would be a 4/4 for 4?

[HoneyT]

Just to put this on record: Nicholas Fitticus was a great man.

Also @ElricTheWhiteWolf:

That's exactly why. He's a big body that can help close out a game and out of your Deed range most of the time.

[ReinVos]

Qweerios, you raise a good point that this deck can't interact with the stack, even though it's blue. And you actually gave the main reason why we found that Jace wasn't the best fit in this deck; it was difficult to protect him.

The combo finish started out with just Recurring Nightmare and Palinchron, simply getting to seven mana and then using the Recurring Nightmare to swap Witness/Explorer for Palinchron and then go infinite (infinite mana>infinite Witness>infinite Probe/Brainstorm>strip hand>sweep board>put every creature into play>pass turn). One of the earlier drafts had a Primal Command to put all the lands on top to REALLY clean the board and ensure the win. You see, a simple Intuition at enough mana would start the onslaught, and that's what made the deck so appealing. This is why Brainstorm or Diabolic Intent is needed, it raises the consistency of finding the Intuition to get going.

The deck was built to survive and get to seven mana, and then win the game. So it is a control deck at heart, with a combo finish. It's easy to try out lots of cool things (which of course isn't always right) but the main idea behind the blue Nic Fit deck is something that, in my opinion, is something that is worthwhile exploring (no pun intended).

The deck has great board control between Pernicous Deed and Eternal Witnesses/Explorers chumping all day long. You don't need to take over the board, you just need to survive until you can get the Recurring Nightmare engine going and it's curtains. The many chumpblockers and Deeds complimented the combo as they filled a crucial role in surviving. Deed isn't there to blow up silver bullets, it's there to not die (and sometimes to clear the way for combo time).

The Unburial Rites package was later added to have a nasty Intuition available to ''win'' out of nowhere with access to only four mana. It took up some valuable slots but turn four Iona backed up by some early Therapy action was often pretty damn good.

The deck isn't where it needs to be so I'm hesitant to post a decklist from the top of my head. The idea wasn't mine and although I've contributed to the discussion and testing of the deck, I'm not as well versed with lists as the guys who created it are. That said, I'll defend this deck with everything I got because I believe that with some work this could be viable.

More discard may be needed.

I'll continue brainstorming about some lists and try to come up with something. That will only help the discussion because more players can try it out and give their feedback.

[Claymore]

My tests with the posted Palin Fit seemed to show it has great merit and potential, but just like the other flavors there is yet to be an optimal list... Hence this thread and it's nearly 100 pages of discussion over a relatively short period, compared to several of the DBTs that hover around 50-80 and ask every once in a while for a deck list or mundane card choices.


I believe that Kokusho and Yosei are complete crap for this deck. Sure they do cute things with Nightmare and Moat, but I would choose Hornet Queen over either of those in a heartbeat.

Kokusho and Hornet Queen fill completely different roles for this deck. In my meta I have Enchantress and Lands, where the 7 mana swarm and everything else in here will do nothing (deed for enchantments herpderp). Likewise, Queen will moderately help against Sneak Attack and Maverick, where the dragon won't do much but be a speed bump. Running Kokusho for me is thus a need for additional tools in my toolbox,and I would say that you would alternate between Queen and Grave Titan for a board stabilizer/aggro swarm/Jace hunter.

Kokusho will also grant the deck massive life swings late game when you need to close the deal quickly in turns against board-crippled Batterskull decks at 50 life, since he can swing for 5 and then be cycled for 10-15 additional life per turn. All about different tools for specific tasks as opposed to solely "card A is always superior to card B"

[Qweerios]

Those scenarios are so rare. Deed, Lily, and IB pretty much singlehandedly take down Enchantress. Might as well pack a Gaea's Blessing for those times when your opponent tries to mill you to death. I don't like dedicating deck space for a 1/100 scenario. Games shouldnt get to the point where the only way to break a stalemate is with Kokusho/Nightmare (both singletons too), especially in a deck packing 3+ Deeds and X Pulses. I can think of way more scenarios (Moat or not) where a Hornet Queen is just as good offensively, defensively, with/without Nightmare loop, and at 5 virtual copies, it feels much more accessible. It doesn't get shut down by Karakas, or worse: StP.

If anything, Kokusho makes more sense with Volrath/Tower than with Recurring Nightmare. At least it becomes removal/karakas-proof and forfeiting your draw step shouldn't be an issue since this loop is supposed to be the be-all, end-all of the deck...

[sumbahdy]

I recently played BUG Nic Fit in a tournament and went 2-4 drop. My list is based on Qweerios' list with only 2 cards at most that i switched.

Rd 1: UW Blade w/ Vapor Snag 0-2
Rd 2: UWr Miracle 0-2
Rd 3: BG Reanimator 2-1
Rd 4: UWr Miracle ended in a draw but i gave it to him
Rd 5: Merfolk 2-0
Rd 6: Esper Blade ended in a draw also gave it to him

Some notes:
I find that i SB Gifts Ungiven almost in all of the control match-ups. Is this correct?
The deck functions well evwn without the gifts. Mostly plays like BG Rock with gifts acting as a late game insurance. I think it could be switched for MD Negate or Liliana maybe.
The Negate from the board really helps against control.
I boarded 2 Carpet of Flowers and it was insane.

I would love to play the deck again. Will do some testing again next time.

[Claymore]

The defensive measures can be addressed by the same argument of Deeds and Pulses, and throwing down 8 mana for defensive measures can be trouble. I enjoy Koku's life options, you like hornet's tokens. Whatevs.

[Kich867]

I think there's something to be said about the power of 5 flying deathtouch creatures and the theoretical life gain they give you while simultaneously removing creatures. Few decks handle a horde of creatures very well, most removal in legacy is 1-for-1, so when you stare them down with 5 flying deathtouch tokens you're essentially 5-for-1'ing them somehow.

On a less relevant note Nic Fit is something I'm looking at again. I got a pretty sweet job (one might call it a career now) and I'm reinvesting in magic. Though I don't believe what I intend to build could hardly be called Nic Fit, it involves the Explorer / Therapy engine and some concepts from it. It's probably closer to The Rock with Explorer/Therapy really. Except I guess it's really not because The Rock is more of a control deck, I dunno. I might make a new thread it doesn't seem to fit with either of the two archetypes.

[Megadeus]

The reason that Nic fit is so good with therapy and explorer is because it is designed to abuse the mana that it creates. It plays the best creatures and spells to abuse the mana. Anything else probably just becomes another version of Nic fit

[Kich867]

The reason that Nic fit is so good with therapy and explorer is because it is designed to abuse the mana that it creates. It plays the best creatures and spells to abuse the mana. Anything else probably just becomes another version of Nic fit

I only say that because Nic Fit is primarily a control deck and the deck I'm designing is much more of an aggro deck. The mana is abused in a different, somewhat more passive way than Nic Fit uses it, I'm not dropping huge fatties and I'm not playing massive board wipes etc. Nic Fit blows a hole in the bottom of the boat, I'm just drilling holes in it and watching it sink, if that makes any sense.

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already; I'd like to keep the list under wraps right now until I do some work with it.

My main point was that Hornet Queen at best 5-for-1's and at worst forces them to Wrath of God the board or something just to get through it. If your build of Nic Fit can reliably hit 8 mana, consistently, the value Hornet Queen presents is brutal. Thresh, Maverick, and any tribal aggro deck might as well scoop if it resolves, they'd lose way too much trying to get through it while you beat them to death with some enormous fattie.

[Qweerios]

@Claymore,

In fact, I don't like either. I don't think it boils down to the same argument as Pulse and Deeds and mana requirements for defensive measures. Pulse and Deeds have more application than Kokusho and don't have the same vulnerabilities. I think Kokusho is one of those EDH cards you put in Nic Fit because the ability is so appealing. It would be like packing a singleton Lightning Helix with my Volrath Tower combo so that I can recur Helix every turn via Witness to win against Ensnaring Bridge.

[Kung Fu English]

Ok guys, inspired by the omni show deck at the scg open today, I have an idea.

What about running gbw with rector package and 1-2 omniscience and the living wish package? It's just an idea now but just maybe it can work. Probably is bad though.

[Asthereal]

Ok guys, inspired by the omni show deck at the scg open today, I have an idea.

What about running gbw with rector package and 1-2 omniscience and the living wish package? It's just an idea now but just maybe it can work. Probably is bad though.

Instant win though. Omnicience in play, play Living Wish for free, fetch Emrakul,m play for free, extra turn, attack. Living Wish is also playable without it, getting you a land you need so much, or getting you a useful creature.
I personally think it's a bit 'win more', but you could try it. Why not.

In the above pages here there's a lot of discussion about what Nic Fit really is. Some people play it as a slow combo deck, that first holds off the opposition and later wins with tricks around Palinchron or so. Other people play it like a classic Rock deck, that defends until its big dudes or planeswalkers take over. A list with Rector into Omnicience would fit in the first category. I do think that after some testing you will probably prefer a combo shell with Palinchron, because it requires less slots, making the rest of the deck more consistent.

[bruizar]

Just to bring this to the awareness of the Nic-Fit players out here. This is entirely theoretic, but this card could be a good meta-consideration: Ifh-Biff Efreet.

It deals with all the win-conditions of the U/W Miracle deck, and it is only a 3 turn clock (7 damage per turn-switch):
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Redirect damage to planeswalkers
Vendillion Clique - Kills Clique for G
Entreat the Angels - Kills Entreat for GGGG
Snapcaster Mage - Bigger than Snapcaster Mage

It seems that the best creatures against U/W Miracles are (in order of manacost):
Sylvan Safekeeper - Shuts down plowshares / jace bounce, but you want to resolve Gaddock Teeg first
Gaddock Teeg - Shuts down Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Jace and Force of Will. This is clearly the best disruptor in the pack
Ifh-Biff Efreet - Kills all win-conditions and puts them on a 3-turn clock. Very cost efficient beater, and your opponent doesn't have access to green mana.

The problem with Ifh-Biff Efreet is that he is very narrow. Stoneblade can ignore him, RUG and Maverick can kill him. If you are in a meta expecting a lot of U/W Miracles, this card seems like a good 1-off sideboard slot, though it may be somewhat redundant with Gaddock Teeg.

[eq.firemind]

Omniscience already enables infinite Recurring Nightmare loop and nightmare is already tutorable with other Rectors you have in the deck AND you already have one of the likes of Kokusho, Grave Titan, Thragtusk or whatever to win on spot/win next turn.
To complete the combo, you need lot of pieces, but given that Rector build is control (thus long games), runs Top and Omniscience takes only one slot, it might be very well worth including as "Oops, I win" button in grindy matches (Control) or games where you do not meet a lot of interacton from opponent's side (Combo).
I believe dropping 2-3 bombs from hand off a single Rector activation on turn 4 will actualy win you a fair amount of games too.

This is all theory and might end up being danger of cool things or 4-color monstrosity (yeah, you sometimes want to Brainstorm away that topdecked 1-of), but the way Omniscience flows into Rector build looks promising.

On more general thought, it looks like the deck needs another angle of attack. Arianrhod's success with Scapeshift and bruizar's team development of combo build seems to be it, but the question is about proportions between pure control and that different angle.

I worked on a list that uses excess mana to straight discard/drop fat (kinda Eva Green on steroids) to give a deck aggro-midrange angle, but failed to find a balance between control and beatdown/disrupt elements.

[Megadeus]

I feel as if scapeshift is superior. While you don't get to run fetches, you don't have to change much of the deck due to really only devoting 3 main and 1 side slot for the combo. It is a one card, non graveyard dependant combo.

[Alexeezay]

what do you think about Boseiju (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boseiju&v=card&s=cname) in the scapeshift/blue combo versions? It's tutorable via Primeval Titan and nice to have against decks with lots of counters, f.e. UBGx landstill or UW miracle. Although I guess it could hurt that it comes tapped, especially together with valakuts, not sure.

[Megadeus]

what do you think about Boseiju (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Boseiju&v=card&s=cname) in the scapeshift/blue combo versions? It's tutorable via Primeval Titan and nice to have against decks with lots of counters, f.e. UBGx landstill or UW miracle. Although I guess it could hurt that it comes tapped, especially together with valakuts, not sure.

With therapies and just playing big dudes in general you should be fine. If they don't counter your midrange beaters then they just die to them, and if they do they run out and you scapeshift them, and then therapy can strip their action to stop you. I think that you really cannot run many utility lands due to the nature of your combo kill.

Edit: also if you are resolving prime time you are winning anyway. From there you just need one more attack phase or make a few more land drops

[eq.firemind]

I feel as if scapeshift is superior. While you don't get to run fetches, you don't have to change much of the deck due to really only devoting 3 main and 1 side slot for the combo. It is a one card, non graveyard dependant combo.
It is not as simple as 3 MD slots, because it affects manabase. You have to run many Mountains and you have to run 2 lands that enter the battlefield tapped.

Don't get me wrong, one can't argue with results.
I just wanted to point out that such approach is underdeveloped and from what I read here, Rector build misses that magic button that fits the deck and drasticly changes the pace of game. I mean, when you Scapewin for 18+ damage out of nowhere, not only you win this game, but your opponent has to change his strategy a lot.
While he knows the trick now, he still needs to devote his resources and his mental efforts to not die from something that your deck (or what he thinks your deck is) shouldn't normaly do.
I guess that is something like what Natural Order did to thresh and bant decks some time ago.

[Megadeus]

Other than the changes to the mana base though it is a 1 card kill condition. You do open yourself to wasteland a bit, but it's not like the standard valakut decks that had to run 11 basic mountains in their essentially mono green deck. In legacy you get to run duals as your mountains. I'm not explicitly stating that it is the better combo deck, but the only real disruption for valakut is LD or countering the Shift/Green sun for primetime. And even then, this deck is not reliant on scapeshift. It's just a built in oops I win combo for your Nic fit deck rather than it being reliant on it. In shift fit you essentially can just win from a deed plus a big dumb beater a lot of the time.

[eq.firemind]

It's just a built in oops I win combo for your Nic fit deck rather than it being reliant on it. In shift fit you essentially can just win from a deed plus a big dumb beater a lot of the time.
Yeah, that's exactely what I mean and I think Rector build misses that.

[bruizar]

I recognize the benefits of scapeshift. It is a game ending spell. This is very strong. The problem I see with scapeshift is that it is a useless topdeck if you do not have sufficient lands in play. Burning wish mitigates this, but burning wish requires more than just scapeshift to be good, otherwise you might as well use scapeshift maindeck. yhis means that you are running both a silverbullet sideboard with gsz targets as well as wish targets, which pretty much lock in the majority of sideboard slots for you. if you are willing to accept those sacrificed sideboard slots, then this is pefectly fine. I dont think the wish plan is bad, but it is imprtant to note what consequences it has to the manabase and sideboard of your deck. Playing Scapewish comes at a cost (fetchless inconsistencies and sacrificed sideboard slots).

The Gifts Ungiven build currently has the least broken packages. It does not win the game nor does it set up disruption quiet like intuition. Perhaps better packages can be created with gifts, but this is something we should keep in mind for the future. I would rather cast a lethal scapeshift than a non lethal gifts.

I see Academy Rector as a potential route to victory as well, though it is prone to stifle and graveyard removal more so than other versions of the deck. Omniscience, Dovescape and many other enchantments have very powerful effects, but i have too little handson experience with rector to provide a well formulated opinion on the rector-build. Its important to note that academy rector requires sack outlets to work, which is an extra condition that you must meet. In a rector build with omniscience, i would probably run diabolic intent, just so i can gran omniscience with rector and living wish diabolic intent, then wish for emrakul and win in the same turn.

The reason why we like intuition so much is because it is good in every phase of the game. Apart from simply comboing out with it, you can grab 3x cabal therapy and put someone into topdek mode immediately. This makes te control matchup far easier. We like the versatility of intuition over all the othe options, because intuition lets you sculpt a game plan according to the situation. Tapped out opponent prone to. Iona? Unburial rites to end the game now. Too many threats in hand? Triple therapy. Need to slow the aggro down? Eternal witness loops. Infinite mana? Palinchron rites and image. Need to push the panic button? Pernicious deeds.

This is something that only this version can do. Gifts cant get multiple copies of the same card, burning wish can do only as much as you are willing to dedicate in your sidebaord and can only grab 1 card (not 3 therapies
For example), and rector is a different type of bomb that sort of just woks differently.

So, what i think is best is a 1 card combo that can be applied in all situations and phases of the game for value. These options are intuition and burning wish. This is why i see their respective builds as the most competitive versions, even though the 'optimal list' still has to be found.

[Megadeus]

When you say "most competitive" I assume you mean of the combo versions?

[unemployer]

@sumbahdy: Just keep practicing. I don't know that build runs but I think this is a good deck :D

I used a BRG list last sunday here in the PH.
R1 - Bye
R2 - 2-0 vs SneakShow My teammate gave me the win
R3 - RUG Control 2-1. Won G2 via Tsunami :) G3 - He played early goyfs while I had the EE down for 2. I won via aggro
R4 - BW 1-2 Made a mistake on G3 running only 1 land with 1 SDT. It was a bad gamble and that cost me the game (on that note, G2 ended really bad because I had the SDT online and the next 6 cards were lands without even any fetches, tough break)
R5 - Enchantress 1-0-1 - Won G1. He got the humility out on G2 but I manage get him down to 1. Time was called. He had 2 angels and I had 1 Broodmate and 1 Explorer on turn 5. Just for fun, I played Haunting Echoes before we scooped. :laugh:
R6 - ANT splash Red (not TES due to lack of Orims or Silence) 0-2 I playtests with an ANT and TES a lot and I REALLY don't know how to win against these decks. I was praying not to play against combo
R7 - UW Stoneblade - Lost G1. Won G2 via Tsunami again. Ended with a draw but gave me the win

So far, the deck runs nice here. My teammate used this list and got him in the Top4 2 weeks ago. Top 4 were 3 Miracles and 1 Jund NicFit

Anyone who can suggest a good SB? I had these cards:
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tsunami
1 Boil
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Duress
3 Pyroblast
1 Damnation

[Star|Scream]

This is something that only this version can do. Gifts cant get multiple copies of the same card,


I respectfully disagree, I can remember the first few times I played against a deck with Gifts Ungiven in it. "4 cards, you say? Well, at least I get to choose two. Oh, they all have synergy with each other so basically you got all 4 cards anyway? ffffuuuuuu"

If you have 2U and 3W for Intuition > Unburial rites then you have 3U and 3W for Gifts > rites

EDIT: You can just wish for Unburial rites and Griselbrand (thanks Viridia!)


A good panic pile is

Deed
Pulse
Witness
Tower

With that pile you can take care of goblin swarms and multiple delvers once you untap.

I would love to have a discussion on gifts piles and how they can be exploited in Nic Fit.

[Viridia]

In the build that i played with for a short time (in testing) i usually ended up using Gifts for either Mass removal (Deed, Pulse, Witness, Tower or possibly Deed, Witness, Recurring Nightmare, Coiling Oracle) or a way to close out the game easily (Jace, Garruk, Witness, something(often another Gifts)

Also you can just Gifts for Rites and a Fatty and no other card and they'll both end up in your graveyard.

[Star|Scream]

Also you can just Gifts for Rites and a Fatty and no other card and they'll both end up in your graveyard.

See, this is what I mean! Thanks for that info I didn't know but should have known!

[eq.firemind]

Also you can just Gifts for Rites and a Fatty and no other card and they'll both end up in your graveyard.
I don't think it will work. Gifts' text says for four, not for up to four.

[Star|Scream]

I don't think it will work. Gifts' text says for four, not for up to four.


You can fail to find.

[eq.firemind]

You can fail to find.
That is correct. Great find then. I actually never thought of this.
Sometimes you miss things right in front of your nose.

[Viridia]

Because it says with different names it means you can fail to find anything with other names.
I know, it sounds stupid, but it's true :P

[Star|Scream]

So, from what I can tell, the only main benefit of Intuition is the ability to grab deed and play it next turn with only 3 (tower exclusded) lands in play. I can certainly see situations where you need to blow a deed by turn 3 or 4, have a gifts in your hand, and you were wishing it was an intuition. However, this deck commonly ramps to 4 or 5 mana by turn 2, and (I feel) gifts not only offers card advantage for that 1 extra mana, it also offers more utility.

[bruizar]

3 therapies is usually the first intuition.

[Qweerios]

The only downside of Gifts is that the cards must be different, but since you need 7 mana for the Palinchron combo, just use Gifts instead of Intuition.

How about this for a combo pile:


Unburial Rites
Recurring Nightmare
Eternal Witness
Palinchron


You can always start recasting Gifts for an instant win-con, an Oracle to draw your entire deck and put every lands in play, a Flusterstorm for w/e protection, anything! With unlimited mana and recursion, the possibilities are endless... (Kokusho and Exsanguinate wins on the spot). You don't even need Brainstorm, Probe, or Oracle to draw your entire deck.

Other than that, you can always go for Unburial + Iona/Griselbrand for a more conventional approach.

[Star|Scream]

3 therapies is usually the first intuition.

What's wrong with

Thoughtseize
Eternal Witness
Therapy
Hymn

[.:saturno:.]

nice gift pile XD.
where i can see a competitive list of bug fit?!

[Qweerios]

I am experimenting with a GBUw list. This is my first attempt:


Creatures (16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gigapede
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Palinchron
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Spells (22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rites

2 Gifts Ungiven

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

Lands (22)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Life from the Loam
1 Karakas
1 Thragtusk
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite


I have played a few games with it, and I have yet to pull off a Recurring Palinchron (I beat BUG Control and Pox 2-0 so far).

[Megadeus]

There was a BUG lit that got a deck tech at an SCG event. Otherwise a few members here may have one

[Star|Scream]

Qweerios: I think 3x Gifts might help you (at least in testing) "combo" out more regularly. Maybe in place of an intent?

At least to see it more regularly while you test, I mean.

[bruizar]

I will test out gifts as as well a bit to see if that card can replace intuition. Once I do, I will comment on the differences. Pretty neat that you can fail to find.

@Qweerios:

I fail to see why you would run Gifts over Intuition in that particular list which you posted. Intuition costs less, and grabs more packages. You don't run thoughtseize+hymn to emulate intuition for 3 cabal therapy, you don't have the ability to get 3 eternal witness to create a recastable chump-block wall every turn (Witness into Witness; into Witness), so what is it you are actually gaining by running Gifts Ungiven in that list? 3U instead of 2U is not a reason to run Gifts Ungiven. I don't see a Volrath's Stronghold / Loam / Witness / 4th card package either. I think you should focus on the strength of Gifts Ungiven instead of making it a worst version of Intuition. Maybe I'm missing interactions in your list, if that's true I take it back, but I'm not seeing why you would run Gifts over Intuition except for card availability in your collection.


Also, consider this scenaro, when you therapy, you want to do it as soon as possible, before those threats land on the table. Gifts Ungiven, in the best scenario is a turn slower, so that means at least 1 of those threats have already resolved. Now your fix is Pernicious Deed, not Therapy anymore. Gifts Ungiven into Thoughtseize / Hymn to Tourach / Eternal Witness / Cabal therapy requires. What will you opponent give you? I think this is a hard choice for your opponent, and it depends on whether or not he has counterspells/brainstorm. It's very strong but the difference is a turn. The question is, isn't the disruption going to be too late? God forbid Jace resolves right before you Hymn his hand empty.

[jbone2016]

Yea or nay to dueling grounds? Sometimes you don't want deed away the board, just a slow grind?

[Qweerios]

@Star Scream,

At the very begining I used my Gifts Fit list as a template and added a 3rd Gift for this version. I quickly took the 3rd Gift out and replaced 2 IB with the 2 Intents, the reason being that I really don't want two copies of Gifts in my hand, and I need more than 4 sac outlets for Explorer. Intent usualy grabs Gifts anyway.

@Bruizar,

-The reasoning behind Gifts is quite simple, I don't know how to assemble the Palinchron loop with Intuition. Furthermore, the Palinchron loop requires 7 lands so I don't really care about the speed of Intuition vs. Gifts. Also, Gifts nets you an extra card.

-Witness walls cost way too much for what they do. If this is something you really want, pack 4 Witness for starters and throw in an Unearth.

-I don't have a discard pile because I don't want one... I will start packing maindeck Thoughtseize when I'll start needing it again.

[KMS]

@Star Scream,

-Witness walls cost way too much for what they do. If this is something you really want, pack 4 Witness for starters and throw in an Unearth.

-I don't have a discard pile because I don't want one... I will start packing maindeck Thoughtseize when I'll start needing it again.

For me this deck is a utility deck. If you want combo, play ANT or Hightide or Elves because they are much better in comboing. Same with solid agro builds, like goblins..

The deck for me is so versatile that it has outs and awnsers in every situation. And that goes for the witness/unearth package as well. There are tons of different packages that are better on paper though games can turn unexpected at any time.

This versatility is the power of the deck, capable of massive hand distruction, board control, warping to mid/late game state, recurring, comboing.

Each package is different depending on the situation. Configuring the right package is sometimes a trickshot though and with that, up to date meta knowlage is almost a must to play competative at all, unlike ANT for instance who is playing one game plan.

For instance I ran one mountain and one taiga in the case of encountering Show and tell hivemind, so I could pay for the pact of the titan which worked well. It does however affect the decks consistancy a tiny bit, chances of winning were increased greatly and due to the fact of the populairity it was an auto include for me at that time.

Versus show and tell/reanimate I usually configure a package of unearth/witness/phantasmal image. Or in case of reanimate phantasmal image/unearth/ooze but then again all those packages are not pre-defined, it all depends on the game state

The witness/unearth synergy can make up to 5 eternal witnesses. Good versus creature heavy decks, or when the pernicious deed plan isn't at hand or fails. On the offensive side it can swing for 10 devided in 5, on paper giving the oponent a hard time to block all of them leaving a planeswalker open to hit.

I did also not know about the gifts ungiven's ability to find a number of card for your likings, which makes the card instantly much better then I thought it would be, though I also fail to see why it is better then intuition, other then it is often better to have cards with the same effect with different names versus extirpate for instance.

The more I read and the more analysis I see I get more and more convinced that indeed people have a whole different take and ideas about the deck.

[Cire_dk]

The more I read and the more analysis I see I get more and more convinced that indeed people have a whole different take and ideas about the deck.

I enjoyed reading your constructive post.

Since I am very new to NicFit, the more I read , the more confused I get. The options seem to be endless. I am trying to play a rector build at the moment. I have lots to learn. To me this is what makes the deck interesting.

I am looking forward to reading more on this great thread to learn more, play better, and most of the time get confused even more than I am already :confused:

[ReinVos]

The discussion of Gifts vs. Intuition is interesting, they both have their merits. Gifts actually gives you card advantage, although it's somewhat slower. The flexibility Intuition offers is that it functions as a Demonic Tutor. Many of the more important cards are played as a 4-of. Creating a wall of chumping Witnesses isn't the best thing you can do, but the option of doing it is nice. Forcing your opponent to give you a Deed when you're dying on board is also pretty sweet.

If you want to use Intuition to get the Palinchron loop going, you need a Witness, Zenith or Nightmare in your hand if you want to win the next turn. Otherwise it takes another turn to get there. That said, once you're at the seven mana threshold and Intuition resolves, you'll get so much action it's hard to lose.

If you want to use Intuition to get the Palinchron loop going without any other action, you'll need eight land instead of seven. Otherwise seven is good. Here's how you do it:

The first Intuition needs to be endstepped. Ok, so Intuition for Witness, Witness and Unburial Rites. If they give you Rites, you can hardcast it to reanimate a Witness and then get your Intuition back (this is why you need eight lands, to cast Rites and Intuition in one turn). If they give you Witness you just cast it to get your Intuition back. Once you have the Intuition again, cast it to find Palinchron, Recurring Nightmare and Gigapede. They'll probably give you Palinchron, but you will use Gigapede's ability to get him in the yard. Now you can cast Unburial Rites (flashback) to reanimate the other Witness, use that to get back your Nightmare and you're ready to go nuts. You'll sac a Witness to reanimate Palinchron to untap your lands. Recast the Nightmare to reanimate the Witness again etc. etc. etc. Intuition is in the yard so you can tutor up your entire deck and win from there.

It's spread over two turns but this is the way you can win when you have just an Intuition and enough lands in play. Also, if you have a Therapy in the yard you can sacrifice the first Witness to get rid of something your opponent has because you will reanimate another Witness next turn, which you will use to get the Recurring Nightmare, and then feed it.

Unburial Rites is awesome, and not only here for the Iona/Griselbrand package!

[sumbahdy]

I would suggest that we make a separate thread for the other builds so that we don't get mixed up. So far the trend of the discussion now is the combo nature of nic fit which is BUG. The thread is supposed to be BWG rector(please correct me of I am wrong). Next thing you know people would he talking about (insert build) and the thread derails again.

I would love to see you guys pitch ideas left and right but refreshing the page with another bunch of replies talking of another build is really confusing. My 2 cents

[Arianrhod]

Alright...apparently you guys went kind of nuts while I was at Boston, so I'll do my best to respond to what I can and offer thoughts on what I'm able. If I miss something, please don't take it personally, and just poke me about it -- I have to catch up on like 4 pages of content, lol.

First, my report from Boston:

Gangnam Style is amazing, and pretty much unofficially sponsored our trip home. If you've never seen a minivan with the windows rolling down blaring Gangnam Style with the bass turned all the way up, it's actually one of the funniest things in this world. Also, I hate my friends for introducing me to Ponponpon. If you don't know what it is, do yourself a favor and don't look it up. It falls into the wtf-japan category, but it's also crack.

On the way up I did some heavy theory lifting, and decided to take the floater spot, and the singleton Swords to Plowshares, in favor of two Sakura-Tribe Elders. My logic for SKE is that it allows GSZ to function as unconditional ramp, and it also makes Recurring Nightmare better. I've had any number of games where I naturally drew Nightmare early, but couldn't do anything with it because I couldn't get a creature into my graveyard (no sac outlet, StP my dudes, etc). SKE fixes that problem, at least. I also switched Kokusho out and put Yosei in, because Yosei is the stronger effect (and looping him can lock maverick out of the game completely, whereas Kokusho can't). He's less of a win con, but I did forget something I once knew about him: his "skip untap step" clause stacks in multiple instances. If you sac Yosei three times, they skip their next THREE untaps, without you having invest any additional loops into it. At that point you can beat down for two turns, then loop a few times to keep the lock going, and keep beating. So in an awkward way it IS a win-condition in-itself. People in metas like Claymore's should keep Kokusho though, because of Glacial Chasm and Solitary Confinement. While those are definitely corner cases, it's also a local meta concern, which is fine. If I was planning on taking Rector Fit to an SCG or a GP, though, I would run Yosei over Kokusho.

Aside from that, I configured my sideboard for primary anti-combo, with a few cards for Maverick/Gobs/RUG/Fish, as I expected to see those decks in the side events....a prediction which was almost entirely right (win-a-boxes were almost entirely combo and merfolk).

I participated in the TCG 1K legacy event on Sunday, largely because I got snookered into it by a shady staff member. A friend and I were lurking near the public events stage, thinking about doing some win a boxes...and this staff member tells us that they only have 30 people registered for the 1K. Well, okay, if you say so. So of course we signed up despite not really wanting to waste the time....and when the pairings go up, they apparently had somewhere around 115 people, not 30. So I was fairly tilted even going into the event.

Round 1 was against RUG. I was playing the Rector version, with the full 3 Carpets in the board. My deck did what my deck does, and I pushed his face in with Sun Titan g1 and Sigarda g2.

R2 I played against someone who plays Nic Fit often, but was on Ceph Breakfast for the 1k. Game one I punted ferociously, as I had Sun Titan + Deed online, but tapped down to 1 mana available like a moron, so he was able to lead with the 2-drop Cephalid, then drop the 1-drop redirect guy and go off. Derp. Game two I brought in a metric fuckton of hate, because Breakfast happens to get hit by literally everything. He boarded into Stoneforge + Batterskull. We ripped each other's hands apart with Therapies, then he dropped Stoneforge. He was short mana yet, so I Rectored into Humility. Then I drew a Cranial Extraction. Instead of being smart and naming Batterskull (he was at 4 mana), I decided that I was worried about disenchant for some reason and proceeded to name Narcomoeba, because he had everything he needed to go off if he ripped disenchant (not even paying attention to the fact that he had 3 creatures in play already without needing the Narcos). Naturally he rips a land and drops Batterskull. He punches me for a bit, I draw a Deed the turn before I die and blow up everything. He bounces the Skull, I drop Nether Void while he has 5 lands still. We draw-go for the next like 10 minutes while he draws into his remaining 3 mana producing lands in his deck and I fail to find anything that is actually capable of winning the game. I eventually Therapy away the Batterskull somehow, time is called, and he kills me in turns. I don't remember how...I just know I was frustrated, because if I hadn't A: derped game 1 (he was a really slow, methodical player. how he doesn't draw every game with Nic Fit I'm not sure), or B: sequenced my hate properly instead of playing like a chump game 2, I would have won the match, or at least drawn it.

R3 I'm rewarded with BUG Control. I land an early Arena and go to town while he punches me with Factories. I horrifically out card-advantage him, and grind him out pretty easily. Game two is pretty much the same thing, except he doesn't have green mana for the first 5 or 6 turns. My opponent was pretty tilted, and I felt a little bad....but BUG is a really easy matchup for Rector Fit, so....blah.

R4 I played against Miracles for the first time in my life. I keep a shaky hand g1 that has a ton of potential if I draw well. I don't draw well, while he assembles a fast CB/Top + Jace, which brainstorms a few turns into an EoT Entreat for an arbitrarily high number. Game two I get one of the busted openers Rector is capable of: Bayou, Explorer, Tower, Therapy, Rector, fb Therapy getting Arena. Arena does its thing, and I bury my opponent in cards while molesting him with Thragtusk. To his credit, he realized my edge and scooped well before he was dead so as to not waste time. Game three was my single worst derp moment I've had in a long time. I was in really good shape...game was going just the way I like it to go. I had like 7 lands in play, things are going well....just trucking along. I had Raking Canopy and Sun Titan in hand. I think to myself, the only thing that beats me here is an EoT Entreat. Therefore I should play the Raking Canopy. For reasons unbeknownst to me, I play Sun Titan instead, getting back E.Wit to get back something. He draws off Top EoT for 4 angels and kills me (I was at 13 from a fast arena and fetches). I drop because I'm tired of punting.

So as I walk over to check on a friend, I decide that I should do a win-a-box, because I really hadn't played much magic so far. Seriously, I did two rounds of the sealed (2-0 drop yeah! fuck sealed. I wanted to play legacy.), four rounds of the 1k that I didn't even want to play in, and that was it. So I signed up for a win-a-box. I get paired up against Merfolk, because, as mentioned previously, win-a-boxes were mono- fish + combo. I get one of the absolute most busted openers the deck is capable of, going Land-Explorer into Tower, sac, Therapy, Explorer, sac, Empath getting Sun Titan -> t3 Sun Titan. He drops a bunch of fish. I never see any of my Rectors, my Vindicate, my Pulse, my Moat, or any of my Deeds, and proceed to die to lords despite getting the turn 3 Titan hand. Game two I see a Rector, but can't fire it off because he has Cage out, nullifying my Therapy. He topdecks a critical Wasteland to knock me off 5 mana, which proves relevant as I rip Deed and can't play it and crack it for his fish in the same turn. I didn't see any of my Carpets, Explorers, or Sakuras.

I decide that the powers that be are telling me I just shouldn't play magic this weekend, so I do more trading. I found a signed Karakas (the only one I've ever seen in my life), got my last two German FBBs so my deck is purdy, and picked up a Jap Foil Sigarda. Also a found a Jap Foil Grave Titan for 10, which seemed really low to me, and a few german foils for EDH. The last significant find of the weekend was a German foil Zendikar Forest, which starts off the desired pimpage for my ScapeWish, because German is angry, and ScapeWish is my red version (therefore angry).

I ran into Paul Ewenstein (the guy that took Pod Fit to the finals of SCG Providence) up there. He's switched to a BUG list based off of the one that I sent Caffrey for SCG Atlanta, but he's made some very interesting changes. We talked shop a bit and kept track of each other throughtout the weekend.

One of Paul's most interesting developments was a singleton Noble Hierarch. I wasn't sure of the reason at first, but as I watched him play he got paired up against Fish. The Hierarch allowed him to not fetch any blue sources or basic Islands, but still have blue mana. This proved absolutely integral in his Fish matchup, and seemed to singlehandedly fix it. I put a Hierarch in my 4-color Gifts version that my friend is using. He ran it in some side events Sunday and was very impressed, as was I when I watched. It's a good opening hand card, it smooths the mana in the 4-color lists, it helps the Fish matchup (which blue versions have trouble with), and the one point of Exalted was surprisingly relevant in the most random of ways throughout the day. Very good idea there.

So yeah....it was a good weekend, I just successfully punted all the magic I actually played away. I was very satisfied with my changes. Yosei didn't come up at all, because I didn't play matchups where he actually mattered. He did win me g1 vs BUG control, because he flew for 5 over my Moat every turn. Sakura-Tribes did good work vs RUG, blocking Goyf then ramping. I'm fairly certain that one SKE is correct. I'm not sure about the second. The problem is that I like the idea of drawing them naturally. I very much like having one as a GSZ target at absolute minimum, though, because it actually extends the ramp amount by a deceptive amount and enables early-game Nightmares.

-------------

Now, for you guys.

@the copyright fiasco. I'm really trying to keep everyone's feathers as smooth as I can on this, because I think that Bruizar really is thinking the same way everyone else is with regards to the deck. He just has something of an unfortunate way of wording things sometimes, lol.

I'll break it down as simply as I can:

-) It doesn't matter who created the deck in its original form. Other archetypes don't worry about who created them originally (in fact, it's equally as impossible to find out for most of them as it is for us). We're all contributing and growing the archetype in our own ways. I will claim creation rights for the Rector version, and while I don't think I thought of ScapeWish first, for some reason mine seems to be the only one that works. I will also claim that I have done a lot of work popularizing the deck in the Northeast US. I will not claim that I CARE about any of these rights. I have very much of a community ethic in mind with regards to this thread. We're all here, we're all working with the end goal of making the archetype better. Arguing about he-thought she-thought isn't going to help ANYONE.

-) Bruizar is correct in one thing, without any question: we need to be clearer about the specific versions. I don't think that we need to split off into multiple threads necessarily, but I do think that I need to work on actually finishing the primer. Tao seems to have completely disappeared, sadly, so I'm not sure if I'll have to make a new thread for us, or what'll happen with that exactly. Maybe Koby can help us out, since he's shown that he still reads the thread at least. Regardless, I need to finish the primer before we worry about it, and I will prioritize that as heavily as I can without losing my mind.

-) At the current moment, here are my thoughts on specific versions / the people responsible for maintaining them (not necessarily creators, but the people to go-to when you need a question answered about a version).

Rector - me
ScapeWish - me
BUG Gifts - Qweerios
BG - Qweerios
4-color Gifts control - me
BUG Intuition - Bruizar
BGW Pod - Claymore? Not sure of anyone in here that's worked with Pod recently.
BGW Rock - ?
Jund - probably Megadeus?

I'm excluding the various experimental versions like Qweerios's 4-color combo Gifts, my RestoAngel, Tezz, or Fauna Shaman versions, and so on.

Ideally my mental concept for the community is thus:

A "village" of closely related decks under the archetypal umbrella, with one or two specific, active community members who are responsible for their specific versions. I think that's the only way we're going to actually achieve focused progress. So if anyone wants to step up, I'm going to try to add a section in the primer for these people. That way, whenever someone comes into the thread and has questions about a specific version, they can direct their question to someone that actually knows the answer. I can try to talk about the Intuition list that Bruizar came up with it, but I haven't tested it at all, so I would be talking out of my ass. Same if he tried to talk about Rector. We used to be able to roughly cover all of the versions, but as the thread and the archetype have grown and grown, I can't keep track of everything anymore (and I'm sure everyone else feels the same). We need more organization, and Bruizar's adding a whole new version to the thread has just exemplified why. New people like Cire_dk are probably completely lost because of the sheer range of options available.

@Jbone - Dueling Grounds seems pretty bad. Most of the time, with the way legacy is set up currently, one creature is all that's needed to ruin your day. Space monsters, Griselbrand, Knight of the Reliquary, Goyf, etc. It's good vs Fish and Gobs, but Moat's better in those circumstances.

@Bruizar / Qweerios -- If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't matter if you're using Gifts or Intuition when you're infinite. You have infinite mana and infinite Nightmare activations, so it doesn't matter what you Gifts for or where it goes. You don't need to use Intuition as a Demonic Tutor in that instance. You guys have also covered a lot of ground while hashing this out...it's entirely possible I'm just hopelessly lost.

Looking at Gifts vs Intuition in a combo mentality, I see the following:

-) Palinchron looping takes 7 mana, so it isn't the fastest win (on par with Scapeshift)
-) Sometimes you can't combo out. In these instances the extra card from Gifts is relevant.
-) Sometimes you really, really need to grab something, so getting 3 copies of a thing is relevant.
-) Once you've combo'd, it's completely irrelevant whether you're using Gifts or Intuition. Both win the game just as quickly.
-) Intuition can be done EoT t2 after Explorer/Therapy, whereas Gifts usually has to wait a turn longer. However, does the speed difference matter? Why not spend the mana dropping Deed or some such?
-) Is it possible that you're BOTH right, and the deck should be running a split of Gifts and Intuition both? Like 2-2 or some such? Really wild thought there....probably wrong, but I'll throw it out there regardless.
-) Intuition has a very serious drawback that is worth remembering: it takes cards OUT of your deck. If you have to pull the panic button and Intuit for triple Deed to blow up the world, you've only got one left in your deck to use. At that point you're completely reliant on E.Wit recursion, and if it's post-board, they almost certainly have graveyard hate to rain on that parade.
-) This can also be a strength, though. As Bruizar notes, triple Therapy is really strong -- both because it rips their hand apart and makes it so you are less likely to draw a Therapy later, when they're usually dead. Gifts occupies the middle ground, with neither the strength nor the weakness.

@Qweerios -- you can do better than your pile listed in 1965. The following:

Sun Titan
Unburial Rites
Palinchron
Recurring Nightmare

Should win immediately, I believe. Assuming that they won't give you Nightmare or Sun Titan, as those are the repeatable recursion elements, you can Therapy yourself for Palinchron with any random dork, Unbury Sun Titan, which brings back Nightmare to play, saccing Titan for Palinchron, and going infinite from there.

Random thought: is Unburial Rites better than Dread Return in a combo version? Obv. you'd have to tilt it a little harder towards creatures, but it would theoretically make the combo cost just the 4 of Gifts, enabling top-deck main-phase wins.

Liliana of the Veil is probably better in these versions, too, as you actively want to discard certain cards if they end up in your hand. EoT Gifts, get like Sun Titan and Palinchron in hand with Unburial and Nightmare in gy, discard Titan to Lily in your mainphase, then easily go infinite from there.

Everyone's already explained how Gifts works with only two targets, so I'm not going to bother. In my experience, the best target thusfar has been Rune-scarred Demon, because it forms a chain. Gifts for Unburial+Demon, unbury Demon -> Nightmare, loop Nightmare with Demon and whatever for endless tutoring.

Random thought #2: Does Body Double work favorably with Recurring Nightmare? I think it does. Theoretically that would make the Palinchron loop cheaper, because Body Double and Palinchron loop with each other, making the loop cost 2B instead of 4BB+X.

Griselbrand and Iona aren't good Unburial targets, because the meta is incredibly prepared for them as a result of Show and Tell's popularity the past few months. There's way too many Karakases, for one. Better to use a nonlegendary IMO.

@Bruizar -- I agree that Scapeshift has that slight design constraint of needing sufficient lands in play and in deck. However, the ScapeWish list is designed to take advantage of that. It only runs two copies in the maindeck, with another in the sideboard. With Top this means you usually find it exactly when you want to. Also, the deck is focused on hitting the 7 land minimum necessary to kill. The addition of Wood Elves and Primeval Titan, as well as the fact that you aren't thinning with Fetchlands, actually makes it really easy. I fully recognize that ScapeWish looks like it has some very serious problems on paper, but it plays a lot better in-game than it looks, trust me =)

I've thought about throwing in an Omniscience, but the fact that it's blue stops me, because if I draw it, it's literal dead. There may be some kind of a crazy 4-color Rector version that is focused on Omniscience, but I don't think that it needs to be shoe-horned into the current Rector build. As it stands now, Rector IS a path to victory: you get Moat, Arena, or Nightmare usually, depending on your opponent, and then ride that enchantment to victory. It's a "ride chain," if you will, though....it doesn't usually win the game for you by itself. While having such an enchantment would be nice and the Rector version DOES miss that "I Win" button, I feel that the three primary targets are sufficient when used properly with the rest of the deck. Rector isn't focused on a quick kill - it's an attrition deck. It is definitely important than ScapeWish and Gifts/Intuition are both capable of killing as soon as their signature card goes off, but Rector is a bit of a different animal in terms of its philosophy.

@Alexeezay -- Boseiju isn't really needed, because ScapeWish has a sufficiently high threat density that your opponent is going to be run ragged if they're trying to counter everything they think they need to counter. It also adds a colorless land, and a 3rd land that comes in tapped...both of which are things that ScapeWish really doesn't want.

@eq.firemind -- I like your #1946 a lot. I've felt for some time now that the reason ScapeWish is so strong is because it has that oops I win, but it's an oops I win that fits seamlessly into the deck with minimal requirements, that compliments the main philosophy of the deck, and that attacks on a completely different line than the rest of the deck....even as the rest of the deck helps it (Explorers ramp, not just for fatties but because every land that you put into play gets you closer to just winning). That's one reason I like the Nightmare loop with Yosei (or Kokusho). It gives an otherwise rocky attrition/control deck a combo finish, which seems very important to the deck overall. I do agree that the Nightmare dragon loop doesn't seem "strong enough" when compared to Scapeshift or Palinchron. Switching to Yosei may fix this problem. Needs more testing.

Ifh-Biff is hilarious. If anyone's meta has a pile of Miracles, try that shit out and let us know how good it actually is. I'm always a fan of making random old cards actually relevant.

@Asthereal -- I think that my summary of "what Nic Fit is" from the WiP primer is still accurate:


Nic Fit is a rock/toolbox styled deck which utilizes an attrition style of gameplay. This means that you can expect discard, removal, and sweep, alongside chunky threats and surgical creatures specifically chosen for their narrow, but powerful applications. If this kind of deck appeals to you, be advised (read: warned) that you're going to have a lot of reading to do. Nic Fit has evolved into a wide, branching family of decks, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Most of them play some pretty obscure cards, and tracking these cards down can be problematic. Additionally, while Nic Fit of any variety is an absolute blast to pilot, it's also a very challenging deck to play competently, and arguably impossible to fully master, due to its extraordinarily long lines of play.

I'm probably going to add in something about having a combo finish, because it seems that most of our lists incorporate that to some extent or another. Otherwise, though, I believe that sums up the archetype pretty well.

@Qweerios -- Ensnaring Bridge isn't a corner case we care about. We can usually just Pulse or Deed that away. Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm are more annoying, and Kokusho does get around those. I wouldn't say that Kokusho is unplayable in the deck or "one of those EDH cards" that we all hate. I have come to agree that he's close, however, because Yosei is a more powerful effect. Time Walking is better than Exsanguinating for 5, in most metas. I do think that Claymore should stick with Kokusho due to his local meta, however. If there was an effect as powerful with Nightmare as Yosei's (or to a lesser extent Kokusho), that was cheaper mana-wise, you can bet I'd run it. Nightmare is the Scapeshift for the Rector version. It's just having a bit of trouble finding its Valakut, so to speak.

As far as Hornet Queen goes...you can't honestly think that using Nightmare to make a swarm of 1/1s is more effective than using it to make it so that your opponent never untaps again. Especially when it's a 7-drop =/

RE Claymore again....yeah, putting a Blessing in your board for a major tournament is a waste of time. However, if your local meta has like 3 Painter decks, it suddenly seems better. Kokusho may not be better for an SCG, but for Claymore's LGS, it is.

@Kich -- Grats on your job, first of all! I see no reason why you shouldn't share your more aggressive version of the deck here. If you don't want to, that's up to you...but I'd be glad to grow the family, as it were.

@KMS -- Have you tried Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard? If you're having trouble with Thresh, that's the ticket.

======

Okay, I THINK that's everything I've got. Again, if I missed something you want me to reply to, just say something and I'll get to it.

[Megadeus]

For whatever record is needed, I'm running PFire Jund. So if anyone else is runnin it I'll be glad to share ideas!

[ReinVos]

I personally think we've come to a point where the thread needs to be split up in multiple threads. It's very confusing if someone wants to propose a card for the deck (a green creature) without mentioning the colors or general plan of the deck (BGW Rock, BUG, BGW rector, Jund etc.). The community can't answer accordingly because the only thing the deck shares is the core. If we would mash all decks together that use Force of Will, Brainstorm and Jace together regardless of colors or strategy we would have a serious problem.

I think Asthereal worded it nicely. One build wants to take over the board, the other tries to fend off the opposition until it's ready to combo out. They share the same core but the general plan of the decks is very different. Because of this, the thread can no longer have all these different strategies under one primer. In the beginning it was mostly narrowed down to Explorer Rock. Explorer has just evolved too much for it to stay in one thread.

The players who are familiar with the intricacies of their build should have their own thread to go to. The same with people who have questions regarding a specific build. This thread has set a record of most posts since it's existence because Explorer is just too wide of an archetype. It will happen too often that someone asks a question regarding to the Punishing Fire/Jund build and then next thing you know Bruizar and I talk two pages about BUG Intuition and the guy who asked a question regarding a completely different build is lost in confusion and hasn't gotten an answer.

[Kich867]

The problem with this is that there is an insurmountable number of builds you can do with the engine. This would cause an intense amount of floodage to the forums. I'm not sure how to handle it yet, but I don't think we need to separate it just yet.

Perhaps I'll post my list shortly, I've never really been one to keep secrets as it stands anyways. Currently the list is just a list is all, I'll be building it bit by bit though.

[Arianrhod]

I personally think we've come to a point where the thread needs to be split up in multiple threads. It's very confusing if someone wants to propose a card for the deck (a green creature) without mentioning the colors or general plan of the deck (BGW Rock, BUG, BGW rector, Jund etc.). The community can't answer accordingly because the only thing the deck shares is the core. If we would mash all decks together that use Force of Will, Brainstorm and Jace together regardless of colors or strategy we would have a serious problem.

I think Asthereal worded it nicely. One build wants to take over the board, the other tries to fend off the opposition until it's ready to combo out. They share the same core but the general plan of the decks is very different. Because of this, the thread can no longer have all these different strategies under one primer. In the beginning it was mostly narrowed down to Explorer Rock. Explorer has just evolved too much for it to stay in one thread.

The players who are familiar with the intricacies of their build should have their own thread to go to. The same with people who have questions regarding a specific build. This thread has set a record of most posts since it's existence because Explorer is just too wide of an archetype. It will happen too often that someone asks a question regarding to the Punishing Fire/Jund build and then next thing you know Bruizar and I talk two pages about BUG Intuition and the guy who asked a question regarding a completely different build is lost in confusion and hasn't gotten an answer.

I agree with this and I don't at the same time. While the archetype has indeed grown far beyond that I suspect any of us thought it would a year ago, I think it can yet be sustained by one thread as long as people who are experienced to their specific versions are willing and able to answer questions pertaining to that version. I am both unwilling and unable to answer questions about PFire Jund anymore, for example, because I've focused on my versions and frankly I can't keep up with all of the awesome stuff that everyone is doing like I could when there were a half dozen or so decks within the archetype. Dedicated personnel, so to speak, would fix this problem.

The biggest reason that I, for one, don't want the thread to split, is because no matter how divergent the various strategies of the decks within the archetype are, we can all learn from each other. The BUG and 4-color builds, whether combo or control, can learn from Paul's Hierarch technology. Unless we're all going to populate each thread (which won't happen, let's be honest here), we're going to miss that level of cross-pollination. Each version has something to say to each other version, in one of the most beautifully concordant discourses that this forum has probably ever seen. Even in the event of wildly different decks as per colors....like if I try a Burning-Tree Shaman and say it's amazing, it opens up a new line of attack for even versions NOT running red. What does Burning-Tree attack? How can non-red versions attack the same angles? etc.

There's just too much to be lost if we split the thread at this point. Very few versions are stable and refined enough that they can be split off on their own....and even then, as I said earlier, I believe that the whole will be diminished by the separation of its parts. It is true that peoples' voices have been lost due to the rapid flow of discourse, but I believe that if watchers for each version are on the lookout for such questions, they can be singled out and answered without losing the flow of information.

I do recommend that, going forward, we try to bold the name of members that we are specifically answering or addressing. That will also help to keep things from getting lost.

-Edit- Welcome to page 100, everyone =)

[Nelis]

People could put the deck(s) they're working on in their sig. Then only those who are working on multiple versions have to specify in their replies.

[Megadeus]

People could put the deck(s) they're working on in their sig. Then only those who are working on multiple versions have to specify in their replies.

I was going to say this as well

[Kich867]

Alright so, I'll kind of explain first the theory behind the list and maybe I can get some input on whether it would accomplish that. I firmly believe that Scavenging Ooze is the best creature currently printed. He shits on Goyf, he shits on Knight, he shits on GY dependent decks, he shits on snapcaster, he shits on batterskull, he shits on mongoose, AND he gains you life.

So I set out to really focus on this card, which means a few things about the deck: my own deck shouldn't be graveyard dependent at all; the deck would need to be heavily green focused; it would need to be able to reliably get activations out of him; it would need to not run sweepers that could hit my own creatures; it will need a low curve.

With this in mind, after several days of discussing this idea with my braintrust, we came up with a lot of ideas: BUG and RUG stood out a lot; why not play the ooze with other creatures that really fuck with your opponent's gameplan and keep ooze alive with all these counterspells. But that didn't seem right, it shifts me to leaving mana open for counters and being more reactive than proactive which wasn't what the intention was. Those were basically control decks with ooze instead of goyf (which, imo, should be happening anyways).

It was already in the back of my mind that Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy duo was for sure the right choice here but I really didn't want to do it. I actually really don't enjoy Nic Fit as a deck, theres situations that feel really terrible that I'm trying to avoid. I'm fairly convinced that I was thoroughly playing the deck incorrectly throughout.

I wanted to run creatures that actually utilized having a lot of lands out besides Ooze. Knight of the Reliquary doesn't work here because they need to be in the GY, and while I -could- utilize reliquary to just burn through my plentiful lands, I don't particularly want to. Wastelocking someone doesn't sound that great when you give them all the basics they need. So I went with Dungrove Elder; with mostly basics and all duals being forests, Dungrove elder should get pretty big pretty quick--tutorable at 4 mana with a nice flexible mana cost. I also decided on Dark Confidant; for one he's a beater, but more importantly since the deck curves out at 3 I can now utilize the land to cast -a lot- of shit rather than one huge thing per turn. One issue I had with Nic Fit was a lack of card advantage, top's helped with filtering but didn't always get there.

Kitchen Finks felt like a good maindeck answer to aggressive decks and functions well with Cabal Therapy. The loss of life of bob and fetches is being dealt with by Ooze and Finks. Qasali Pridemage's should be pretty obvious here.

In terms of spells, I think they're pretty straight forward.

Kich Fit:
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Dungrove Elder
4x Dark Confidant
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Gaddock Teeg

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Horizon Canopy
5x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains

I don't want to hammer out a sideboard just yet but Thalia will be there in some large number. The Pulse/Vindicate split seems sketchy. I may want to do a 3/1 split. Sometimes being able to kill a problematic land is nice which is kind of why I wanted 2. However Pulse answers a -lot- of shit and is a little easier for the deck to cast. As you can see the deck takes a lot of influence from The Rock, Nic Fit, and Maverick.

One of the only real issues I have with the deck is that I feel UW Miracles will rape me. I'll have to find tech against that. Thalia may be all that's required--boarding in thalia's over Explorer's and forgoing ramp for disruption.

[KMS]

.


seems to me you could use.

Life/death + garruk

Glissa, the traitor + exsecutioners capsule

Eternal witness + unearth

[Nelis]

..

Is there a reason that you play 2 Gaddock Teeg? Is it because of the Miracle match up? I mean they don't really work with GSZ and you don't always play against Miracle. So why not just 1 you can tutor for when really needed and another 1 or 2 in your sideboard. You could swap one for a single Witness.

[Arianrhod]

seems to me you could use.

Life/death + garruk

Glissa, the traitor + exsecutioners capsule

Eternal witness + unearth

All of this seems terrible for what Kich wants to do. By his own admission, he wants to stay away from these types of cards.

I DO think that a 1-of Eternal Witness would be fine, just as a Zenith target rather than all-in recursion engine as in traditional Fit.

I'm not sure 2 Finks are going to be sufficient lifegain to make up for the Bobs, especially without Tops. I do like the approach you're using to build the deck, and I do think it very much fits in with the rest of its brothers and sisters as a member of the archetype. A few more thoughts:

Tusk would be good vs Miracles, and would give you a "bomb." It's also not terrible with Bob because you'll gain the life you take from flipping him right back, and most of the time you'll have either already grabbed him or he won't flip off of Bob. That said, I think that you can do better for lifegain options.

-) You're running a -lot- of creatures. While I don't think that Sword of Light and Shadow is what you want (the white half would encourage you to not grow Ooze). What about stealing Maverick's tech and running a 2-of Jitte?
-) Alternatively, you could easily sneak a few Stoneforges in, for like a Feast/Famine and a Jitte.
-) You aren't running Deed. This means you can take advantage of some good cards that we can't usually, like Bitterblossom. That might be a little TOO much cutting, but Blossom is a hell of a card, and it does fit the philosophy of the deck. It just gets raped by our own Deeds, which is (one reason) why we don't run it.
-) 2 Teegs?
-) What about Sylvan Safekeeper or Ulvenwald Tracker? Safekeeper gives you a use for your extra land by turning them into one-shot Mother of Runes activations for Teeg/Ooze/etc, and Ulvenwald can acts as removal since Ooze and Dungrove will actually act as sources of fat that don't cost 6 and aren't used primarily because of their abilities.
-) Looking at your mana base, I think that 3-1 Pulse-Vindicate is perfectly acceptable and probably preferable. Most lands you need to kill are slow cards that are corner cases or tutor targets anyway, so you'll have plenty of time to find the Vindicate. Killing multiples is usually more relevant.

As far as sb -- if you land Safekeeper + Teeg, you beat Miracles. Literally. Safekeeper should at least be in the board IMO. Since you're on the Teeg plan, you don't want Tsunami. Your deck's curve also means that you're subject to CB-lock, so some Krosan Grips would be a good idea. That'll also help vs Omnitell, which is another matchup I see you having trouble with. Maybe Arena of the Ancients? Primarily only useful vs Show, but vs Sneak you'll have Grip.....

Actually, what about Pithing Needle? Without Deed you don't have to worry about it dying. Needle on Jace, Sneak, problem lands, KotR, Fauna Shaman, or whatever else is giving you a problem would be pretty good. I'd say that overall you want ~8-12 cards of your board able to be brought in vs combo of various types, some of which is probably also graveyard hate (Extirpates?). You probably want a few cards dedicated to miracles, and a few for Maverick and RUG. As the deck looks right now, I worry about your RUG matchup a good deal. Ooze is good, but he's not going to get there by himself.

====

Also, putting our versions in our sigs is a good idea.

[Megadeus]

No offense but you really just built the rock minus the late game power of KotR. And why does it matter if you have lands in your GY? You aren't eating those. Just my thought. You built a combination of Nic Fit and the Rock but you don't abuse Nic Fits engine with lots of mana, and you don't have the disruption of the rock.

[Arianrhod]

No offense but you really just built the rock minus the late game power of KotR. And why does it matter if you have lands in your GY? You aren't eating those. Just my thought. You built a combination of Nic Fit and the Rock but you don't abuse Nic Fits engine with lots of mana, and you don't have the disruption of the rock.

If I'm picturing the flow of the game correctly in my head, it actually isn't just a "worse rock." The acceleration of the Explorer engine allows for Kich's deck to spew out cards much faster than what a rock deck would be able to. Ie being able to draw 3 cards a turn and play all of them. It'll have a much faster pace than traditional Rock.

What I worry about therein, though, is that it's very, very reliant on Dark Confidant as I see it unfolding. Confidant is its sole draw engine, and it has very little card quality and no card advantage outside of that. If Bob sits there unchecked, however, Kich's deck is just gonna go fucking nuts. It's not going to choke on 5 and 6 drops where you can only play one card a turn. It probably wants a backup source of card draw, like Arena. Could try Sylvan, but that'll hurt pretty quickly.

Dungrove is POSSIBLY better than KotR here, as well, due to the ramp of the Veterans. He'll get big fast, and he has built in protection.

[Qweerios]

@Arianrhod,

The Titan/Unburial/Nightmare/Palinchron pile has a major and a minor problem with it. The minor being that Sun Titan requires WW to cast, which is often hard to get in 4colors with only Unburial Rites to abuse it. The major being that the loop creates unlimited mana, but without an Oracle or a Witness, it will not produce unlimited draws or Gifts in order to find Kokusho.

I also thought about a 1/1 split between Gifts/Intuition but I dismissed it because Gifts was plainly superior. Adding 1 mana to a spell for an extra tutor is nothing to scoff at either. I would only play Intuition > Gifts if the deck primarily was a combo deck and going off was its priority. As it turns out, going for a combo-centric approach that requires 7 lands in play isn't the best strategy, therefore I maintain the card offering the most powerful effect for a Control/Aggro/Combo deck (in that order) should hold priority.

@Kich867,

Losing the strength of Deeds and focusing on targeted removal makes Mother of Runes good again. I believe maverick shouldn't have any trouble giving you hell.

[Megadeus]

I just feel like this deck is trying to be the rock much more than it is trying to be nic fit. Also you don't really g over the top in any way. Dungrove is probably really good, however it is just a vanilla guy who can get chumped all day for no value. losing the flexibility of KotR is rough. While you will be able to swarm the board sometimes, you arent any faster than any of the tribal decks in the format.

[KMS]

@Arianrhod,

The Titan/Unburial/Nightmare/Palinchron pile has a major and a minor problem with it. The minor being that Sun Titan requires WW to cast, which is often hard to get in 4colors with only Unburial Rites to abuse it. The major being that the loop creates unlimited mana, but without an Oracle or a Witness, it will not produce unlimited draws or Gifts in order to .


ww to cast should not be a real problem though its not as easy to get as GUB sources.
You can therapy yourself or use gigapede so it goes to the graveyard

With unlimited mana cHances are great that you already have at least either one gitaxian probe, intuition, gifts, intent or which ever draw you play.

If that is the package you choose with gifts, you win. Else your package has not been the correct one in that game state.

[Claymore]

iop100

Just wanted to chime in with the Teeg talk that I played him x1 maindeck in my most recent tournament and thought he was great. As far as actual game play, he stopped a miracled Temporal Mastery that surely would've won the game. I'll be continuing to play him mainboard since he gives assistance against difficult matchups.

He might stop our own GSZ so if drawn he has to be carefully played with, but that's it. He stops no other spell in our mainboard. He also stops dangerous, game ending cards such as:

-Terminus
-Entreat the Angels
-Hive Mind
-Sneak Attack
-Opposing GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze
-Charbelcher/Empty the Warrens
-Force of Will

All cards we have trouble dealing with, along with several others that are quite annoying such as Batterskull (after you deal with the Mystic) and Jace. Also, not to say that FoW is a game ending card, but that we can easily outpace most soft countermagic and if we can stop FoW it gives them no counter to a hard cast Grave Titan.

Another way to put it is that even though he stops GSZ, that doesn't stop Maverick from running him as well.

[Megadeus]

When I was running just the GB version I ran him as a 1 of mainboard Green Sun Target. He is just great against so many decks that beat us.

[Kich867]

The list originally had 1 teeg in it, though a friend of mine (exceedingly good UW stoneblade / miracle player) recommended a second for redundant copies. But I agree, I'd only ever really want to fetch him.

I like the idea of sylvan safekeeper and tracker. I could see them taking up the second teeg and kitchen finks slots. It was mentioned to me that recurring removal would really set this deck over the top and Fightbear is probably the best way to do it.

@ Megadeus: if you read my previous posts I pre-emptively suggested that that response was a likely occurrence. The deck is not, however, The Rock. The Rock has a different gameplan at it's core.

@ Knight of the Reliquary: To do what? This deck won't run their toolbox of lands and Wasteland seems exceedingly useless to me. It can make itself arbitrarily large at a rate significantly slower than an Ooze could make it arbitrarily small.

@ Sweepers: Sweepers in this deck seems bad. However, Virtue's Ruin is quite a real card against Maverick. Running Dungrove Elder's presents me with a creature that is already immune to spot removal, is very large, and bypasses Virtue's Ruin. Sideboard for sure.

@ Draw engine: Bob and GSZ are enough. There are extremely few decks in legacy that actually draw cards and not just cantrip. Goblins and Dark Confidant are some of the only that I can think of; Jace is, but only if you intend to brainstorm with him every turn.

@ RUG: I don't believe RUG has an answer to Dungrove Elder outside of Force and running 7 virtual copies of it makes it hard to keep that up, Oozes make mongoose and goyf small, with the addition of fightbear my Elder's and Ooze's can kill their delvers and goyfs. With generally no basics and no means of exiling Veteran Explorer, I'll outpace them in mana rapidly.

Criticism's duly noted. Safekeeper seems good, Tracker seems very good. Updated list with relevant suggestions.

[bruizar]

Do take note that you are changing aweakness from graveyard hate to sweepers lke perish / natures ruin / terminus.

Ooze is a great card but I think dungrove elder is a bit like terravore. Big dumb beater without utility. However, I havent tested him so can't say too much. Hex proof is really good tho.

Also, you currently seem a bit weak to flyers. If tempo can keep ooze away, they can easily race you with a delver and some burn. Finks is nice but they just let it live andwait for your confidant to do the rest of the damage. The match can go either way but I don't think it's favorable (nothing is really favorable against rug though). I'd test this match a lot since its a very popular deck. Also I would not run thragtusk with confidant. You are on 8, flip tusk, cast it, Bolt in response, GG. You are on 5.. Err, crap, no brainstorm. You are on 15 flip tusk, go to 10, walk into a daze or fow, delver bolt snap bolt


Does your deck really suddenly suck if you add a minor graveyard theme to it? I'd say you'd improve the deck because if they sideboard against you they are not beating your overall strategy but a minor,mbut powerful gambit in your deck. Foregoing graveyard cards just because they use the graveyard sounds like running bad creatures because they belong to a certain tribe. Dontfrget that goblins use Thalia sometimes, and affinity uses Sfm sometimes. I'd keep a close eye to rtr because the scavenge ability seems pretty strong for your deck with dungrove and therapy. Keep your eyes open and don't say no to graveyard interactionms before evaluating them appropriately is my advice.

[Kich867]

Do take note that you are changing aweakness from graveyard hate to sweepers lke perish / natures ruin / terminus.

Ooze is a great card but I think dungrove elder is a bit like terravore. Big dumb beater without utility. However, I havent tested him so can't say too much. Hex proof is really good tho.

Also, you currently seem a bit weak to flyers. If tempo can keep ooze away, they can easily race you with a delver and some burn. Finks is nice but they just let it live andwait for your confidant to do the rest of the damage. The match can go either way but I don't think it's favorable (nothing is really favorable against rug though). I'd test this match a lot since its a very popular deck. Also I would not run thragtusk with confidant. You are on 8, flip tusk, cast it, Bolt in response, GG. You are on 5.. Err, crap, no brainstorm. You are on 15 flip tusk, go to 10, walk into a daze or fow, delver bolt snap bolt


Does your deck really suddenly suck if you add a minor graveyard theme to it? I'd say you'd improve the deck because if they sideboard against you they are not beating your overall strategy but a minor,mbut powerful gambit in your deck. Foregoing graveyard cards just because they use the graveyard sounds like running bad creatures because they belong to a certain tribe. Dontfrget that goblins use Thalia sometimes, and affinity uses Sfm sometimes. I'd keep a close eye to rtr because the scavenge ability seems pretty strong for your deck with dungrove and therapy. Keep your eyes open and don't say no to graveyard interactionms before evaluating them appropriately is my advice.

I don't believe I mentioned that, I was just saying that I don't intend to implement much graveyard interaction to the deck. The point is that when you heavily rely on graveyard interactions you're open to the most common form of hate. Cabal Therapy and Scavenge are one thing, but cards like Life From the Loam for instance is rampantly weak to graveyard hate and you sort of have to build around it. I'm saying: "I don't intend to build around graveyard interactions."

I do believe scavenge will be a wonderful welcome to this deck. The 3 mana 3/3 haste with scavenge isn't actually a terrible guy.

And yes, decks that involve creatures are often weak to board wipes. Maverick is a deck that is all but ~12-15 cards creatures/land. And 4 of those ~12-15 put creatures into play. What deck that wins with a dude isn't weak to Terminus?

Pointing out the flaws in card types (IE: creatures can die) isn't particularly useful here. It's not like these weren't considerations.

[Kung Fu English]

Well I'm back mostly.

I do need to post an updated GBW list that I plan on taking to a tourney this weekend but I will get to that tomorrow, it's late now :P

I just wanted to pose a question:

For the Scapeshift version (or jund PFire too I guess): what does an up to date look like and what are the thought behind utilizing Bonfire of the Damned?

I've seen the other miracles do work in Legacy and Bonfire is arguably the most powerful if you can get enough mana, but the only deck I can ever see having enough mana to abuse it is Nic Fit. Seems like it could fit in the red versions?

Just a thought for now.

[bruizar]

Well I'm back mostly.

I do need to post an updated GBW list that I plan on taking to a tourney this weekend but I will get to that tomorrow, it's late now :P

I just wanted to pose a question:

For the Scapeshift version (or jund PFire too I guess): what does an up to date look like and what are the thought behind utilizing Bonfire of the Damned?

I've seen the other miracles do work in Legacy and Bonfire is arguably the most powerful if you can get enough mana, but the only deck I can ever see having enough mana to abuse it is Nic Fit. Seems like it could fit in the red versions?

Just a thought for now.

I play bonfire in Godo mud as a 2/3 off. The card is great for me there.