[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[jbone2016]

Has anyone thought of using a one of vampire hexmage in the board for planeswalkers? Seems freaking awesome with nightmare, titan, witness, stronghold.

[KMS]

Has anyone thought of using a one of vampire hexmage in the board for planeswalkers? Seems freaking awesome with nightmare, titan, witness, stronghold.


I think its not great at all since it de-synergises with recurring nightmare. I rather go for vibdicate effects that is less conditional.

A vampire hexmage doesnt do anything really except for planeswalkers and yes a random vial or something but its not worth the slot in my opinion, you cant GSZ the hexmage which makes it much less of a valuable addition of the deck.

If you do, play at least the marithlage with the hexmage


On the side note, a great addition to the decks is cavern of souls

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod,

The Titan/Unburial/Nightmare/Palinchron pile has a major and a minor problem with it. The minor being that Sun Titan requires WW to cast, which is often hard to get in 4colors with only Unburial Rites to abuse it. The major being that the loop creates unlimited mana, but without an Oracle or a Witness, it will not produce unlimited draws or Gifts in order to find Kokusho.

I also thought about a 1/1 split between Gifts/Intuition but I dismissed it because Gifts was plainly superior. Adding 1 mana to a spell for an extra tutor is nothing to scoff at either. I would only play Intuition > Gifts if the deck primarily was a combo deck and going off was its priority. As it turns out, going for a combo-centric approach that requires 7 lands in play isn't the best strategy, therefore I maintain the card offering the most powerful effect for a Control/Aggro/Combo deck (in that order) should hold priority.

@Kich867,

Losing the strength of Deeds and focusing on targeted removal makes Mother of Runes good again. I believe maverick shouldn't have any trouble giving you hell.

@Qweerios

Agree@RE@Kich. Perhaps sideboard 3-4 Dread of Night?

Try using Reflecting Pools (I'd say x2) and a Murmuring Bosk. It's fixed any problems with the mana base in my 4-color version. Bosk coming in tapped can be annoying, but there are often turns when you can get it out without hurting your tempo. Reflecting Pools have been amazing. Also, I'd recommend adopting Paul Ewenstein's technology of a Noble Hierarch. It smooths mana and also helps vs Fish (don't have to fetch islands).

As for "just" generating mana...I don't think that's a major problem at all. If you've resolved Gifts and gone through with the infinite loop, I don't believe that you HAVEN'T hit a Witness or an Oracle yet. The most I could see it causing is it might make you want to Zenith out a Witness or Oracle when you might otherwise not want to in the early game. Keep in mind too that at the point at which you have infinite mana, you can use Titan to get back the rest of your graveyard, loop Explorer through Nightmare so that you have all of the rest of the basics in your deck out, etc. It needs a Witness or Oracle to win, but again, I don't see you having -not- hit one of those options very often.



Just wanted to chime in with the Teeg talk that I played him x1 maindeck in my most recent tournament and thought he was great. As far as actual game play, he stopped a miracled Temporal Mastery that surely would've won the game. I'll be continuing to play him mainboard since he gives assistance against difficult matchups.

He might stop our own GSZ so if drawn he has to be carefully played with, but that's it. He stops no other spell in our mainboard. He also stops dangerous, game ending cards such as:

-Terminus
-Entreat the Angels
-Hive Mind
-Sneak Attack
-Opposing GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze
-Charbelcher/Empty the Warrens
-Force of Will

All cards we have trouble dealing with, along with several others that are quite annoying such as Batterskull (after you deal with the Mystic) and Jace. Also, not to say that FoW is a game ending card, but that we can easily outpace most soft countermagic and if we can stop FoW it gives them no counter to a hard cast Grave Titan.

Another way to put it is that even though he stops GSZ, that doesn't stop Maverick from running him as well.

I personally still don't like Teeg, because I like Cranial Extraction and Memoricide too much. You're right, though -- Teeg is awfully good in non-Rector versions. Rector runs Elspeth (and 4-mana enchantments), so Teeg can be a little irritating therein. Especially since Elspeth is one of our best cards vs Miracles.

//////

Went effortlessly 3-0 with Rector last night in my local before dying in the last round to Red ANT. He combo'd me game one fairly easily, then g2 I made his life a living hell. I blew up both of his red lands with Vindicate, Hymn'd him by Cranialing his Lotus Petals, Therapy like crazy, Extirpated his Therapies to knock him off of Threshold, etc. The literal whole nine-yards. He Ad Nauseums from 9 with Elspeth staring at him. No cards in hand. Hasn't made a land drop yet. He flips LED, Bloodstained Mire, Grim Tutor, Dark Ritual, dropping to 5. He fetches (4), Ritual, LED, Tutor/break LED (1), Tendrils. For exact storm with exact mana. Fuck my life.

He LITERALLY couldn't have flipped any other 4 cards in his entire deck and won the game.

Regardless of the tilt that put me on (especially when that knocked me to 3rd on breakers...), I can say that the list is very close to how I want it. In testing, Yosei seems to have largely fixed the Maverick problem. Sakura-Tribes are pretty good, although I'm leaning towards trimming that to a 1-of for Zenith as opposed to the 2-of. As stated previously, I like drawing them naturally, but at a two-of I'm not drawing them enough for that to matter. A 1-of tutor target is probably fine, unless I can find a 3rd slot to open up somehow. They've definitely been good though....early blocks into acceleration / fixing is sweet. In an Explorerless world, they also ramp from 2->4, which is important in Rector builds for self-evident reasons.

I'm thinking about putting the 4th Deed in the board. I'm concerned about Pithing Needle and Revoker, though, and I'm not sure I want Damnation because there might be a Teeg. It's also possible that I'm obsessing entirely too much over corner cases.

I'll try to post my most recent Rector list a little later on.

[Star|Scream]

I was testing out Qweerios' BGuw palin fit list from a few pages back on MWS last night.

With all the oracles and explorers I was able to ramp a lot, but usually all I could do with that mana is cast more oracles and explorers. It felt like that's all the deck does. I do feel that if you have Iona in the maindeck, there should be a way to hardcast her, if needed. I would remove a swamp and add a plains, tundra, or savannah. I feel swamp is the 2nd worst card in the deck (Island being 1st)

On the other hand, I played his BGu gifts/loam deck as well and was able to take two game ones against lands (of course the games lasted so long they would have been game one draws in a tourney) but didn't play the second or third games for either match. I was able to finally topdeck the miser wasteland after primeval stripped every other land out of my deck (he had active wastelock so I couldn't afford to titan it into play) and was able to deed his orb, waste his chasm, and apparently thrun gets by maze of ith quite well.

I was also able to beat 4c SNT/omniscience with duress/extirpate on SNT, but Keiga, the Tide Star is brutal against any nonSTP versions of this deck. However the deck seems more all-in on SNT, so we have a better chance to disrupt them than sneak/show.

I think I'd like to try a 1/1 split of JTMS and Liliana in this version, and also put in an unearth. I'd like to have some means of card advantage that doesn't use the stack, cost mana, or is dependent on the graveyard (i.e. Jace +0, phyrexian arena, bob) and being able to wish for jace, liliana, witness, and something else shouldn't be scoffed at.

[Cire_dk]

Gratz on the result


@Qweerios

I'll try to post my most recent Rector list a little later on.

I am looking forward to it. At the moment I am sticking to the rector version and I am planning to play it at the Dutch Nationals in October. Of course Return to Ravnica will offer completely new untested decklists. This means plenty more discussions/options

So here we go , moving towards celebrating page 200 :tongue:
I love this thread, its people, the discussion, and last but not least the amazing Nic Fit deck. Never a dull moment. :laugh:

[Claymore]

In my builds I don't have Elspeth or 4 mana enchantments (except for Humility sideboard) so that's why I felt Teeg could go main. I haven't done much testing with Elspeth though, but my theory is that Teeg gives a boost to horrible matchups as opposed to Elspeth boosting decent to good matchups...and both help Miracles, so I dunno there :P.

The Cranial/Memoricide/Tsunami concern is a valid one and I'm still contemplating it. However, an x1 Teeg is still searchable for when we don't draw the Extractions and it can give us an out (even if temporary) against Leyline of Sanctity, which always seems to come out turn 0 against me in games 2/3. My worry with a Tsunami attempt would be if I sacced Teeg and they get to finally use their sandbagged FoW...so running Teeg will likely prove to be a skill-intensive move. I imagine Teeg will be aimed as a late game (post-Extractions) to stop the 4+ bombs that serve as their only out against, say, Sigarda (Ad Naseum, Tendrils, Entreat, Wrath of God) and effectively seal the deal.

Overall our deck is designed to kill our own creatures, so I imagine we can find ways to remove Teeg if necessary. That's also why I'm rolling with Viridian Emissary for now. Nothing else, I'd rather a Swords to hit Emissary than an Explorer or late game fatty, as opposed to them holding one because of STEve. I don't rely on the 4 mana slot as much either, so I can see why you want Steve. The extra flexibility of GSZ for Steve and then saccing for the land is nice, but seems a waste of a GSZ. I ran an x1 Emissary and just preferred it as Acceleration #9 (Explorer 1-4, GSZ 5-8).

--

As far as your unfortunate bout of bad luck, why didn't you Cranial the Ad Naseums?

[Kung Fu English]

I'm also interested in the updated rector list. I picked up a pair of FBB Savannah's at gencon and I may try to trade one for a moat and something.

Here is an updated gbw list I have. There's 62 cards so I need to make some cuts but I'm not sure what to drop. Certainly the sb is by no means set either, the deed and stp are fillers atm.

Also what are thoughts on 3 tops vs 2 tops and 1 sylvain library split?

Creature (17)
1x Academy Rector
2x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (5)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Land (23)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath

Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Pernicious Deed

[Arianrhod]

@Claymore -- You're probably right. I had Therapied him, so I knew that his two cards in hand were Lotus Petals. I'd already Vindicated his two red lands in deck (Badlands and Volc), so my thought process was twofold: remove two free Storm count in case he draws something, and make it so that LED is the only remaining source of red mana in his deck. I also had an Eternal Witness swinging away, so I figured that if I kept him off mana and cards for Storm as much as possible, I would be able to get his life low enough that Ad Nauseum wouldn't be scary. But I do think you're very likely correct.

@Kung Fu -- Master of the Wild Hunt is terrible now. He was fine a few months ago, but I wouldn't touch him with the current meta (and the way the meta is progressing). You also really need a Fierce Empath to go with your Sun Titan and Grave Titan. Making your big bombs GSZ-able is a pretty good thing. Especially when you can nut out and Empath->Sun, sac Empath for Therapy (checking for counters) or Tower for mana, play Sun, returning Empath, grabbing Grave. Most decks just crumple under that barring extenuating on-board circumstances.

I continue to dislike Thrun. I'd make that the cut down to 61, which is perfectly acceptable. IMO Nic Fit should always be run at 61. It just flows better. I've tried it at 60 and it doesn't feel right to me. You suck so much land out of your deck, plus GSZ....I've never had a problem with the extra card. I'd rather have the extra tutor target than the most perfect math possible with the extra .07% chance to have a Veteran in your opener, or whatever it actually works out to.

3 Tops is always better. Sylvan Library gets punted by Deed constantly....Top saves itself.

The 1-of Inquisition maindeck looks a little suspect to me. I'm not sure what else is on your short list of things to put in, but I can't imagine you finding it reliably enough when it matters.

@HoneyT -- what are your thoughts on Kung Fu's list?

[Cire_dk]

@Kung Fu

Would it not be better to have 2, maybe even 3 rectors? The problem is what to cut?
Maybe cut Kitchen Finks? (besides the suggestions already made by Arianrhod)

Maybe Teeg based on previous discussions?

I recently included Ooze as well because it serves a lot of causes.

I do play the version with Moat so that will make a difference regarding maindeck choices.

[stu55]

Not really going back into all of these pages, but I played this deck to just goof around and play something different a few months ago. I made it a goal to win the tourney while using Recurring Nightmare and Yosei to lock them out of the game. I think that if you are using all of these titans, I would just consider Yosei lock with Nightmare...

[Megadeus]

Ooze is amazing. I'm even considering adding a second one. Just because I tend to blow my ooze up with deed a lot. Sometimes you just gotta do it. I still am a big fan of Thrun. A lot of decks just fold to him.

I run a 1 of inquisition as well and have always liked it. It is nice having one extra disruptive discard spell in case of combo, and it is nice to open on that into next turn therapy and explorer. That is just destructive.

[Kung Fu English]

@above

Scavenging ooze would be the first creature I would add and probably the last card from the list I would cut. It does do much against all the decks.

The list started out as 4 therapy and 2 hymns which I evolved to 1 thought seize and 1 iok which I had to make a cut so the thought seize went. It's not about getting it reliably it's more of having the 5th discard effect. The 2 spots were Lilliana firstly as well. But that said it may be correct tO drop it.

Master is probably the correct cut. Thrun I always like with the myriad of blue decks around and he just beats rug. But with enough discard the uncountable may not be necessary. I still think you want 1 4 drop green creature and that seems to be either master or Thrun. Other suggestions?

Fierce empath I did get ahold of but hadn't put it in yet. It is good utility and I'll give it a shot. On a side note, I wish monwali beast tracker didn't put to top of library or found more keywords so it could get baneslayer and sun Titan.

I only playing 1 rector ATM since its not a dedicated rector build. It's a way to have a flex second copy of all my 1 of enchantments. Mostly experimental as well at this point.

Teeg seems good right now but could be sb. Same with pridemage potentially?

61 cards seems fine to me too ESP with 23 lands. I've run 61 in a lot of other decks before and I know how the stats add up so I like it honestly.

So right now I'm at the above list:

-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 pridemage to sb

+1 fierce empath?

Tappedout link for those curious:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nic-fit-12/

[Megadeus]

Thrun is great as well. The hexproof is very very good vs STP and Karakas, and he can chump big KotR vs Maverick all day, then after you deed for 3 he goes on offense.

[Claymore]

For strictly cutting 2 cards, I would cut Pridemage and Master. I used to run both, but cut Master early when I rarely was GSZing for him.

Pridemage was a little harder to stomach, but realized that I was hardly using him for something board-breaking and generally just a "lol I can do this" play. Usually Pridemage will be to kill equipment, and no equipment can truly qualify as a game breaker aside from maybe SoFI or SoFF. Batterskull we can either chump block with creatures or our face until we get a bigger threat down, and Jitte isn't scary to us until it gets to 4 or 6 counters. Both easily get stopped or slowed by Deed. Other must-stops aren't fast enough to end the game (Confinement) or can just sit (Leylines) while we just find another of our 5+ answers in the deck.

Past that, I would cut Ooze. I run Ooze in the sideboard because, like Pridemage, there aren't enough must-answers to run him. I rarely, if ever, GSZ'd for him when he was mainboard, and would rather wait the extra turn to GSZ -> Empath -> Titan. If he is crucial to the match, then the Ooze is likely too slow to matter (Reanimator, Dredge) since you would need to GSZ minimum turn 2/3 and then eat graves turn 3/4. For areas heavy with Maverick I can see Ooze sticking around, but otherwise our other bombs can easily handle the load.

I also think having Thrun and Sigarda is redundant, and in this meta I would rather have Sigarda. Her flying and Hexproof were huge when hunting a Jace hiding behind an active Batterskull and a few chump blockers. She's also bigger than your typical Goyf and can easily stop Delvers. Thrun can't be countered, which certainly has helped me in past games, but having him in-hand is not something to depend on.

---

I might look at testing a singleton Ulvenwald Tracker, probably sideboard since he sucks against control and combo. I know he comes up in here often, probably because of me lol, but I want to try for a few reasons:

-Rock thread loves him, and Maverick often runs him. Those are similar decks to us.
-He helps clear out trouble cards such as Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker, and general chump blockers
-If you get lucky and have Grave Titan and him out, Grave Titan can assassinate Emrakul.

Mostly though, I'm looking to see why Maverick and Rock love him so much and to see if that loving can translate. If we can get more removal without having to blow Deeds and Pulses constantly then I'm all for it...not to mention an outlet for Explorers and Rectors.

In that line of thinking, those of you with heavy Miracles may want to consider the Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddock Teeg hard lock on them.

[Arianrhod]

@Claymore - Rock has Knight of the Reliquary, and they're also a -dedicated- KotR deck. This means that he gets enormous very, very quickly, as do their Goyfs (thanks to discard). The reason I don't like Tracker in traditional styled Nic Fit decks (despite considering him a few times) is because our threats take forever to drop. Sure, you punch something with a Titan, they're gonna feel it. But that's 6 mana. While we do have a different definition of "big mana" than most of legacy, Rock likes Tracker because he comes out early, their Goyfs and KotRs come out early, and then he goes to down from there. With that in mind, Tracker is perfect for Kich's deck, because Dungrove will do a pretty good KotR impersonation, and I'm fairly certain he was running Goyf as well, which, with Therapy, is again nutty.

With that in mind, I don't think that Tracker is something we can really take advantage of, sadly. Even making things fight Baneslayer or Rector as a means to sac out isn't that great.

As an aside for everyone, by the way, apparently Academy Rectors are pushing upwards of $20 retail now, with foils approaching 70-80. I have no idea when this happened...I'm guessing people want to experiment with Omniscience and see if that's a viable course, so they're buying up copies just in case. Regardless, if you want to get in on the Rector version cheaply, you can probably still find some sites (or LGS) that haven't updated their prices yet. Trade tables are probably good too, because I'm pretty sure price memory is going to hold 8-10 range for a little while at least. Looks like the Rector version is going to get even -more- inaccessible cost-wise, though =(

[Kich867]

I'm not currently considering Tarmogoyf. Perhaps I should try to find a way to fit him in though. He's certainly aggressive, but I worry that I'm already quite flooded on the creature front. Though there's also the option of moving even further towards that end, aim to just have more creatures than they will removal (sort of mavericky in that sense).

[Claymore]

Damn, I saw that the Omniscience was making waves but was hoping it would avoid influencing Rector price. So much for that

[Megadeus]

Goyf does not belong inthis deck. Once you are running goyf you might as well go full on rock. Nic Fit for the most part is a green sun control style deck. It does have rock influences but we aren't trying to go Aggro with 2 drops. We go big with 5s and 6s.

I would never cut ooze unless my meta was full of tendrils and such. He is great against RUG, Maverick, Dredge, Reanimator. Even against Stoneblade he can turn off snapcaster or just get big. And even if my meta was full of tendrils this deck would not be good at all. Having an ooze to green sun for is just amazing.

[HoneyT]

@KungFu and @Arianrhod:

Re: Kung Fu's junk build

I don't mind the extra discard slot, but if you use it, then Thoughtseize is just better. Like most everybody said, Master is not really worth it nor is Thrun because Sigarda is just better. Also, if you're only running one Rector and aren't Rector centric, which I like, I don't think the second Tower is necessary. If you really like the extra sac outlet, I'm a fan of Innocent Blood. I don't like Teeg in the main, in the sideboard I think he's fine since you aren't using Cranial Extraction effects. Shutting off arguably your best card game 1 isn't what you want to be doing.

If I were to tweak your mainboard it would be something like this:

- Gaddok Teeg
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Thrun, the Last Troll
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Phyrexian Tower

+ Thoughtseize
+ Innocent Blood
+ Liliana of the Veil
+ Elspeth, Knight Errant

Something like that. Hope that helps!

[Kung Fu English]

@above

The big thing Pridemage kills for me is Sneak Attack honestly. That ends the game out of nowhere and is too high CC for deed. The rest im not worried about. But putting it in the SB seems fine since people are starting to eschew sneak now or might.


I did try Ulvenwald tracker, didn't like it. Doesn't work in this deck.

Thoughseize vs. IoK: comes down to the 2 life for me. I find myself stabilizing at 1-3 somewhat often, so it could make a difference. Certainly could go either way though.

Pick up your Rectors now and finish your play sets. It's going to be 30 before too long.

I still think Thrun and Sigarda both do a ton of work in the deck and I like having both available. If you get 1 in hand you search the other. And you aren't hosed if you get one killed or countered without a recursion ability.

Scavenging Ooze: If you aren't searching him up main deck something is wrong. I search him up all the time. He is the go to low cc aggro creature. GSZ for 1-3 doesn't get any better. There's a reason why time walk is banned, and time walking yourself so you can GSZ for empath a turn later and be a turn behind the rest of the game is not where you want to be. What else are you going to do with 3 mana when you are on the beatdown or facing no threats? Play witness into an empty GY?

2 Phy Tower: 1 could become a Volrath's, as it used to be, but that is clunky in my experience. Tower gives you explosive openings and 5 mana on t2 more often. Replacing one with an innocent blood or other not only removes the 2 mana you get from tower but also costs you 2 more, so you are basically time walking yourself.

I could be convinced to remove the Karakas and put 2 in the SB for appropriate matchups, however.

- Gaddok Teeg (SB)
- Master of the Wild Hunt
- Qasali Pridemage (SB)
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Karakas (SB x2)

+ Thoughtseize
+ Liliana of the Veil
+ Elspeth, Knight Errant
+ Fierce Empath

Potentially?

[Megadeus]

Right now I'm 1-1 at my Wednesday night legacy... With a bye lol. Lost to Miracles. Man that match up is just impossibly difficult. I just have no way to beat entreat. Game 1 I had liliana and Garruk out and won. I just think Liliana is one of the better cards in this deck.

[Megadeus]

Ended up 2-1-1 in the Swiss. Beat Tezzeret control to be able to draw into the top 8. He basically played a bunch of artifacts that locked me out for a few turns, crucible with wasteland to take out 2 of my 3 groves, an ensnaring bridge with no cards in hand, a chalice at 1, and a smokestacks at 1. Naturally I rip deed and crack it for 4. Game 2 I drew my singleton SB Ancient Grudge and just annihilate. It actually made me feel bad. I got all the sick rips.

Then I beat a Jund Zombie list built to abuse Vengevine. Very awesome list that I would love to get from him. But Deed does work. G2 I drew my singletons Extirpate and Surgical. Deed wrecks so many decks. I think I want a 4th one in my SB.

My big issue was UW Miracles. I just cannot beat Entreat for any number. At one point I Lily ultimate and had Garruk out and the game was still in doubt despite him only having jace and a top. Just a tough match up I guess. Anyone got sweet anti entreat tech?

Also finally got to use Garruk Primal Hunter tonight a few times. Amazing. 3/3 every turn and then refill the hand? Sweet. I tried out a one of Punishing Fire and Grove in the SB. Only used it once.

Also I will be putting Wickerbough Elder back into the deck. Just a few random times I wished that I had him.

[bruizar]

@Megadeus:

Gaddock Teeg should be your main card against U/W Miracles. Also, try the Ifh-Biff Efreet. Raking Canopy is also very hard to answer card for U/W Miracles, but it may be hard to find without Rector or intuition/gifts.

@Planeswalkers
I really don't think that planeswalkers are good right now, unless they are Karn or anything else with very high loyalty. Flash creatures are everywhere (Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, EOT Entreat's) and they just beat planeswalkers. Also, lightning bolts are everywhere. The meta is not right for planeswalkers right now imo. I would cut those for cards that interact at instant speed. One of the cards I'm currently testing is a singleton Chord of Calling. That card has a lot of utility in this deck. I won't bother listing out every interaction, but Chord of Calling for Eternal Witness, bring back Chord of Calling, chump block with Eternal Witness can provide a bunch of value right there. It's kind of nice to have a GSZ that goes to the graveyard and works at instant speed.

@Academy Rector price
I bought 4 foil Academy Rectors on top of the 4 regular ones I have, which I plan on trading away. I had been looking for the foil version for a long while but nobody seems to have it and the price was already rising. It's an Urza's Destiny rare, which is already hard to come by. When I compare it to foil Mother of Runes (also reprinted as FNM foil), the current price for Academy Rector seems low even though Mother of Runes is much more of a staple. Rare versus uncommon and EDH playability are important factors imo. Rector was already slowly climbing due to the fact that it's an old foil casual / edh staple. The Pattern of Rebirth deck also plays it. This is one of those cards that I really wanted to trade for, but it took me so long to find it that I eventually just bought it out when I had the chance. I don't feel like catching up the way I did with with foil Grim Monolith. It also gives me an incentive to play around with rector versions, so hopefully I can provide some good insights into the build in the future :) (for reference, I paid 55usd each including shipping/transaction, the cheapest alternative was 1 for 55 euro, and 4 for 240 euro on MCM both excluding shipping/transaction).

[Arianrhod]

@Megadeus -- Miracles seems like it would be particularly rough for the PFire version that you run. As Bruizar noted, other versions have some weapons that they can bring to bear, but the red lists can definitely have some issues. What does your sideboard look like currently?

I also agree with Bruizar that most planeswalkers are bad right now. Elspeth and Primal Hunter are exceptions, I feel -- they have beefy enough loyalty that they can take a hit from a Clique or a Bolt, and they clog up the ground so Snaps can't get through. PFire's synergy with Liliana notwithstanding, you might want to trim out the Lilys for the moment, or at least relegate them to the sideboard. The meta isn't right.

I don't recommend Teeg since you aren't in white at all, but Ifh-Biff is worth a shot in the matchup. Otherwise, you pretty much have to lean on your extraction effects. Always call Top when on the play with Therapy. If they land a Top anyway, wait for them to activate Top, then Extirpate literally anything in their graveyard to force them to shuffle their deck. Cranial naming Entreat. Etc.

@Rector price -- I definitely agree that the price increase was due to happen eventually, but I think that the primary reason is because of the printing of Omniscience. Everyone suspects that there is something to be broken there, so I have a feeling that's the reason for the sharp increase in their non-foil price. Foils I think have been creeping up slowly for a while due to the reasons Bruizar already suggested, and I just didn't notice. Guess I should prioritize getting my jap foils while I can -.-

In other news, Caleb Durward has continued brewing on his end. He took the BUG list that I sent to Caffrey and made some changes:


1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Island

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Consecrated Sphinx

1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Counterbalance
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
2 Negate
1 Thragtusk
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I sorted the list for your viewing pleasure. I feel like it's an interesting take on the non-Gifts BUG list, but I'm not sure that the tradeoff for running Shardless (not running GSZ) is worth it. Shardless main does up the blue count high enough for maindeck Force of Will, which is pretty hot. However, looking at the list, I feel like it doesn't have enough ways to actually end the game. Sure, it'll drown the opponent in cards, but somewhere in those cards there has to be a way to actually win. I'd probably try to find a way to put in a pair of Thragtusks main, and lean on them+Sphinx+Jace+Clique+2/2 beats. That still isn't an "impressive" wincon, but it's probably "enough" considering the card advantage. While I agree that 3 Witnesses is a little extreme, there's no way 0 Witness can be right. I'd try to get a pair of those back in as well, probably in place of the misguided spot removal options. That also makes it more likely that cascade will go into something you always want. I guess there are times you want to flip a removal spell, but it seems poor most of the time...especially with Mother of Runes' prevalence in the format

I also vehemently disagree that Fierce Empath should just be "another titan." The strength of Empath is that it allows for Green Sun to fetch the strongest 6-drops, which are traditionally NOT green. If you substitute Empath with another Titan, you have another 6-drop, which can clog your hand, and you have effectively 3 6-drops in deck. With Empath, you have effectively 7 6-drops in deck, thanks to Green Sun. I fail to see how this is better ever, and I wish that Caleb still checked the thread as he used to periodically. Maybe I'll give him a poke in the comments on his article.

If anyone wants to read it, here's the relevant article -- http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-a-spy-with-an-absence-of-shards/

@Bruizar -- Chord of Calling is interesting. How has it been in testing so far, as far as castability goes? I have no doubt that if you resolve it, it's amazing. But I worry about its mana intensity.

[slikwilly]

RE: Entreat
In my (limited) experience against miracles the way to deal w entreat is to stick a deed and sit on it. They won't cast entreat as long as there is a deed on board. They don't have many other threats, so you can wait on it. Thragtusk also does good work. His cc is pretty good vs counterbalance (just FoW) and the token survives terminus.

[bruizar]

@Megadeus

@Bruizar -- Chord of Calling is interesting. How has it been in testing so far, as far as castability goes? I have no doubt that if you resolve it, it's amazing. But I worry about its mana intensity.

I'm not sure yet. One interesting interaction that comes up is that I can fetch my 1 off dryad arbor and use it for convoke, essentially disregarding the summoning sickness of arbor so it taps for mana. It's also nice that I can theoretically ramp with Eternal Witness over multiple turns, even if I don't hit lands because of this sequence:

Chord of Calling x=3 -> Eternal Witness, grab Chord of Calling
Chord of Calling x=4 (convoke witness) Eternal Witness#2, Grab Chord of Calling
Chord of Calling x=5 ... etc.

I understand this is going to be way too slow most of the time, but sometimes when you really need to, you can set up enough convoke to get the correct creature the next turn.

Another great thing is that you can find non-green creatures with it, such as Phantasmal Image/Palinchron (yes, 10 mana), Academy Rector or even Baneslayer Angel depending on the list you are playing. It grabs sideboard Meddling Mages too, though you should already have some hate before that time or you're going to be in troubles.

Another very cool application, more so for the intuition/gifts builds than for other builds, is the fact that you can use it end of turn. If they resolve a Jace, just EOT get a creature and kill it immediately before he takes over the game.

I'm not sure if the mana cost is going to make this card unplayable yet, but I feel like the Convoke ability and Eternal Witness are two factors contributing to its success the most.

[Claymore]

The big thing Pridemage kills for me is Sneak Attack honestly. That ends the game out of nowhere and is too high CC for deed. The rest im not worried about. But putting it in the SB seems fine since people are starting to eschew sneak now or might.

The problem with this is that Sneak Attack is in no way vulnerable to Pridemage. When they land Sneak, they'll win unless they're a horrible player. I've tested against Sneak Show almost to the point of obsession, and its very, very rare that a Sneak will just sit out for you to ping.


I would never cut ooze unless my meta was full of tendrils and such. He is great against RUG, Maverick, Dredge, Reanimator. Even against Stoneblade he can turn off snapcaster or just get big. And even if my meta was full of tendrils this deck would not be good at all. Having an ooze to green sun for is just amazing.


Ooze is great in theory, but he's a massive mana sink for not a lot of board impact. You can marginally shrink Goyfs/Knights (remember, you're a 3 color deck and we can't afford to fetch all duals), but meanwhile you still have to deal with the self-pumping Knights and Goyfs crashing on your dome while you're busy eating lands in the graveyard. Ooze is good against RUG, but by the time you get him online you've taken 9-12 damage from Delver and have Goyf or Mongoose still crashing your castle - good luck spending GGG to try and shrink a mongoose and still win.

Spending massive amounts of mana to clear out a graveyard to "turn off" 4 cards out of the deck isn't the best plan. It's still a 2/1 that will kill your Ooze who hasn't eaten any creatures.


Scavenging Ooze: If you aren't searching him up main deck something is wrong. I search him up all the time. He is the go to low cc aggro creature. GSZ for 1-3 doesn't get any better. ... What else are you going to do with 3 mana when you are on the beatdown or facing no threats? Play witness into an empty GY?

That's right, something is wrong. With the meta. There are not many situations now where an Ooze is truly the best play you want, and if you're the beat down role then searching up vanilla 2/2's isn't going to get you there, especially since there's probably no creatures to eat from the control deck. Or if you're searching it against combo, then, well, Ooze was a timewalk for your opponent. I deleted your analogy to save you some face.

I say this stuff out of experience and testing. Overall, our deck is more than well enough equipped (Deeds, Pulses, Titans) to deal with situations where Ooze was tangentially applicable until we can get our game-ending bombs online. However, he's a very strong card still so I keep him in the sideboard for matches where he is applicable.

------

I used to play x1 Chord of Calling for the same reasons, being able to search out off-color creatures, but eventually cut it. It was phenomenal with Deranged Hermit (yay convoke), but overall was too expensive for mediocre effects. I loved the fact you could do it instantly, which saved me in a game, but it also lost me my top 8 RUG match where I needed a top deck, drew it, and couldn't cast it.

I've been reworking the deck, so it may be worth another shot.

[Cire_dk]

@Arianrhod
Would you mind sharing your latest rector build with us?

[mordraid]

Ooze is great in theory, but he's a massive mana sink for not a lot of board impact. You can marginally shrink Goyfs/Knights (remember, you're a 3 color deck and we can't afford to fetch all duals), but meanwhile you still have to deal with the self-pumping Knights and Goyfs crashing on your dome while you're busy eating lands in the graveyard. Ooze is good against RUG, but by the time you get him online you've taken 9-12 damage from Delver and have Goyf or Mongoose still crashing your castle - good luck spending GGG to try and shrink a mongoose and still win.


I'm playing 1 scavenging ooze in my rector build and it's been awsome. Early in the game it's a decent beater and late game it can eat graveyards like no one else. The most interesting part is that he can win very tough matchups like reanimator. ( wich is heavily represented in my meta)

[KMS]

I love the Ifh-Biff Efreet tech, LED into scavenge yay.. Who knows.
Further more I expect Chord of Calling to be more of a staple in the return to ravnice cycle. Populate tells us that there will be quite some tokens.. I keep an eye out for just that. Then tokens will transform from cannin fodder to mana ramp with the chord of calling.

On paper much to mana intensive though chord of calling allows for neat interactions with Aven Mind Censor or true believer. It has potential for sure so great find

[bruizar]

@Chord of Calling
In that regards, Lingering Souls / Intuition / Chord of Calling is also something to keep in mind.

[Arianrhod]

Oops, sorry. I was going to do it last night and I completely forgot =(


4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x ThragTUSK
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
3x Extirpate
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Darkblast
1x Nether Void
1x Raking Canopy
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold


This is what I played at my local Tuesday night. I like the Ooze in the board currently. I don't like the two Darkblasts particularly, but I'm not sure what else I want. I THINK I want a pair of sweepers that are not named Pernicious Deed, but I'm not sure what option I want to use, and I'm not sure that's what the deck needs at this juncture anyway.

As mentioned previously, I could see +1 Sakura-Tribe or -1 Sakura-Tribe. Since I don't think I'll be able to open up one more slot main for the 3rd, I suspect it'll be -1 Sakura-Tribe, which leaves the last spot as a hopefully soon to exist GSZ-able sac outlet that does not cost mana to sac. Or something with Scavenge. Or who knows what. I'll probably be leaving it at 2 for the moment....my opinion might change by Ravnica, and there's nothing else I really want to put in at the moment.

Note that putting the 3rd in would be preferable. I just don't know what I'd cut to make room =|

[Cire_dk]

@Arianrhod

Thank you for the list. As a newbie I have a few questions.

How usefull is the Fierce Empath since you run only 2 six drops and the are in the right colour. Will the info to your opponent not make them keep counters?

I read some comments about Swords to Plowshares but don't you miss it. I even considered running 2 of them.

I added one ooze main but still not sure how usefull it is maybe the extra sakura is better?

My current SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Memoricide
1 Choke
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Raking Canopy

[Star|Scream]

@Megadeus -- Miracles seems like it would be particularly rough for the PFire version that you run. As Bruizar noted, other versions have some weapons that they can bring to bear, but the red lists can definitely have some issues. What does your sideboard look like currently?

I also agree with Bruizar that most planeswalkers are bad right now. Elspeth and Primal Hunter are exceptions, I feel -- they have beefy enough loyalty that they can take a hit from a Clique or a Bolt, and they clog up the ground so Snaps can't get through. PFire's synergy with Liliana notwithstanding, you might want to trim out the Lilys for the moment, or at least relegate them to the sideboard. The meta isn't right.

I don't recommend Teeg since you aren't in white at all, but Ifh-Biff is worth a shot in the matchup. Otherwise, you pretty much have to lean on your extraction effects. Always call Top when on the play with Therapy. If they land a Top anyway, wait for them to activate Top, then Extirpate literally anything in their graveyard to force them to shuffle their deck. Cranial naming Entreat. Etc.

@Rector price -- I definitely agree that the price increase was due to happen eventually, but I think that the primary reason is because of the printing of Omniscience. Everyone suspects that there is something to be broken there, so I have a feeling that's the reason for the sharp increase in their non-foil price. Foils I think have been creeping up slowly for a while due to the reasons Bruizar already suggested, and I just didn't notice. Guess I should prioritize getting my jap foils while I can -.-

In other news, Caleb Durward has continued brewing on his end. He took the BUG list that I sent to Caffrey and made some changes:


1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Island

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Shardless Agent
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Consecrated Sphinx

1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Counterbalance
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
2 Negate
1 Thragtusk
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I sorted the list for your viewing pleasure. I feel like it's an interesting take on the non-Gifts BUG list, but I'm not sure that the tradeoff for running Shardless (not running GSZ) is worth it. Shardless main does up the blue count high enough for maindeck Force of Will, which is pretty hot. However, looking at the list, I feel like it doesn't have enough ways to actually end the game. Sure, it'll drown the opponent in cards, but somewhere in those cards there has to be a way to actually win. I'd probably try to find a way to put in a pair of Thragtusks main, and lean on them+Sphinx+Jace+Clique+2/2 beats. That still isn't an "impressive" wincon, but it's probably "enough" considering the card advantage. While I agree that 3 Witnesses is a little extreme, there's no way 0 Witness can be right. I'd try to get a pair of those back in as well, probably in place of the misguided spot removal options. That also makes it more likely that cascade will go into something you always want. I guess there are times you want to flip a removal spell, but it seems poor most of the time...especially with Mother of Runes' prevalence in the format

I also vehemently disagree that Fierce Empath should just be "another titan." The strength of Empath is that it allows for Green Sun to fetch the strongest 6-drops, which are traditionally NOT green. If you substitute Empath with another Titan, you have another 6-drop, which can clog your hand, and you have effectively 3 6-drops in deck. With Empath, you have effectively 7 6-drops in deck, thanks to Green Sun. I fail to see how this is better ever, and I wish that Caleb still checked the thread as he used to periodically. Maybe I'll give him a poke in the comments on his article.



I was actually starting to think of a deck very similar to this. I too question the removal of GSZ for the value of shardless agent, but I'll try it. I also agree with both you and Caleb that this version needs an I win button, and further I am not sure about the clique in there. I'd like to make a version like this, but take out the agents and run GSZ + empath, and also make sure to up the blue count enough to support FOW,. What about Keiga, the Tide Star as anti SNT tech (also seems good in the mirror), chumps and steals kotr, large goyfs, grizzy, wurmcoil engine, emrakul (even gets past anihilator--sort of)

In other news:

I dabbled a little in Kung Fu's BGw list on MWS last night. Got clobbered by show and breach (o_o), enchantress (o_O?) and pox (O_O?). Apparently Leyline of the void shuts off every meaningful interaction we have, and sinkhole can target basic lands. Who knew?

[Arianrhod]

@Cire_DK

Empath is the shit. His purpose is to make my non-green 6-drops Green Sun-able. Having a go-between so that when you draw a Green Sun and can grab a 6-drop is awesome. I DO think that at SOME point in the future he'll get cut, as the 5-drops Wizards is printing continue to evolve to be better and better. After testing without Empath/Titan/Yosei, however, I feel we're not there yet. I'm not worried about the information. Usually my opponent is out of answers by the time a 6-drop happens, and if they aren't, they will be afterward.

I'm not quite as anti-Ooze as Claymore is, but I'm close. I think that the correct place for him in a tricolor Nic Fit deck is in the sideboard. There's too many matchups where he's just marginal at best. I fully grant that he's a good card -- but he's a good card for Maverick more than anything else because they have an abundance of green mana to pump into him. Straight G/B Nic Fit loves him, too. But tricolor....I can find better things to do most of the time. I'll grant that he's an amazing sideboard card, but I won't go beyond that.

I had a 1-of Swords in the main deck for a very, very long time, and it was "okay." I wouldn't rank it more than that, though. The deck wants more powerful effects as opposed to more efficient effects. I'd rather blow up the world with Deed as opposed to remove one creature with Swords....especially with the prevalence of Mother of Runes, Mongoose, and so on.

For your board, I'd definitely recommend switching to all Extirpate as opposed to Surigcal. Split second is hugely relevant in the matchups you'll bring it in vs (Miracles and Sneak/Show/Omni, Reanimator). Otherwise it seems fine. Whether or not you have more discard in the board is largely a personal choice. I have both had more discard and not had more discard at various points in the history of the deck...right now I'm not feeling it, but that's always open to change. Some of it depends on your local meta, too.

@All -- is anyone going to SCG MN? I seem to remember a few people talking about it a while back. If you're going, what version are you running, what do you expect, etc. Let's get some discussion going for those people so they can be as prepared as possible.

[KMS]

What do you people think about this card:



Korozda Guildmage





Creature - Elf Shaman

(3cmc): Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains intimidate until end of turn.
(4CMC), Sacrifice a nontoken creature: Put X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is the sacrificed creature's toughness.


unblockable for planeswalkers / extra sac outlet / token'mana ramp'generation

[Megadeus]

I guess I'm still on the boat that this is a green sun control deck. Ooze is a green sun target that can hate the graveyard, just like despite how bad he is wickerbough elder is our green sun enchantment and artifact hate. My meta is full of fair decks and a lot of creature strategies where him getting big, and gaining life is very relevant. Plus resolving an Ooze against Dredge on T2 or 3 against dredge they just can't win.

[Arianrhod]

What do you people think about this card:



Korozda Guildmage

Creature - Elf Shaman

(3cmc): Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains intimidate until end of turn.
(4CMC), Sacrifice a nontoken creature: Put X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is the sacrificed creature's toughness.


unblockable for planeswalkers / extra sac outlet / token'mana ramp'generation

The problem with the guildmage is that his abilities are freaking expensive. 2BG to sac a creature is painful...especially when most of the creatures we'd want to sac (ie Rector and Explorer) are 1/1s or 1/2s, so we'd barely get any value out of that. You'd be spending 6 mana to give something Intimidate for a turn after GSZ the Guildmage out, or 7 mana to sacrifice something. That's way too spicy. And if you let him sit there for a turn and then play a Rector, it'll just get Sworded in resp.


I guess I'm still on the boat that this is a green sun control deck. Ooze is a green sun target that can hate the graveyard, just like despite how bad he is wickerbough elder is our green sun enchantment and artifact hate. My meta is full of fair decks and a lot of creature strategies where him getting big, and gaining life is very relevant. Plus resolving an Ooze against Dredge on T2 or 3 against dredge they just can't win.

No, we are still a GSZ control deck. But you have to be intelligent with your choices, is all. I don't run a Qasali or a Wickerbough main, although for major events I've been running a Harmonic Sliver in my board for a while. There just isn't enough stuff that we want to kill anymore. Sure, there are corner cases where we want it -- but then why not run Ichneumon Druid maindeck? What about Ifh-Biff? Or Willow Satyr? There's tons of stuff we can run in almost every category imaginable for GSZ, that can all fulfill separate roles. That doesn't mean we need to run all of them.

For what it's worth, I think that the PFire build is one of the few tricolors that actually wants an Ooze maindeck. Grove gives you a lot of extra green sources that you wouldn't have otherwise.

[Star|Scream]

@Arianrhod Caleb zinged you pretty good in the comments. :laugh:

[OCPunisher]

@Durward's latest blue list: Huge fan of your work, started playing the straight GB list as an alternative to Maverick when everyone else at my local shop started playing the same list. The best part is the fact that there are so many opportunities to interact with my opponent, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drop a Deed and wipe away someone's entire board.

Question: why does a deck splashing blue have to run 4x Force of Will? Why not just splash it for awesome value guys like Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle?

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod Caleb zinged you pretty good in the comments. :laugh:

Yeah. I probably didn't word it quite perfectly myself to be fair, but that was a little annoying. I figured he was just misunderstanding me, which was fine.


@Durward's latest blue list: Huge fan of your work, started playing the straight GB list as an alternative to Maverick when everyone else at my local shop started playing the same list. The best part is the fact that there are so many opportunities to interact with my opponent, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drop a Deed and wipe away someone's entire board.

Question: why does a deck splashing blue have to run 4x Force of Will? Why not just splash it for awesome value guys like Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle?

Well, if Durward actually starts posting again, I'm sure he'll want to reply directly. In the mean time, though, the short answer is because Nic Fit has trouble with combo traditionally. I've tended to put FoW in the board because it usually just isn't necessary maindeck, but also because the sideboard usually has a higher blue count that comes in with it, thereby making it viable. Adding Shardless Agent bumps the blue count just high enough (along with the full set of FoW) to run it main. You figure we have a strong matchup as an archetype against anything that's fighting fair, so you want to try to help the unfair matchup. They're usually going to be the first thing boarded out if you aren't playing vs combo, though.

The only real issue I have with FoW is a pretty heretical one. I'm unconvinced that FoW is ACTUALLY doing its job of keeping combo decks in check anymore. I do have thoughts and reasons for that declaration, but this isn't the place for them. Maybe I'll write it up and post it on my blog that I pay attention to once every few months.

[Megadeus]

No, we are still a GSZ control deck. But you have to be intelligent with your choices, is all. I don't run a Qasali or a Wickerbough main, although for major events I've been running a Harmonic Sliver in my board for a while. There just isn't enough stuff that we want to kill anymore. Sure, there are corner cases where we want it -- but then why not run Ichneumon Druid maindeck? What about Ifh-Biff? Or Willow Satyr? There's tons of stuff we can run in almost every category imaginable for GSZ, that can all fulfill separate roles. That doesn't mean we need to run all of them.

The difference is that those are very narrow answers to ver specific situations. A deck interacting with it's Graveyard though? Most Legacy decks in some way interact with their graveyard or like in Mavericks case, at least benefit from their Graveyard.

I'm not trying to make anyone play the ooze, I'm just in the opinion that it is wrong to not run him as a GSZ target in the main. Graveyard hate is much more relevant than flying hate or combo hate. Enough that Durward was even playing 2 mainboard spellbombs. I know they cantrip, but there are a lot of things he could've run in those slots but he chose yard hate.

[Star|Scream]

@Durward's latest blue list: Huge fan of your work, started playing the straight GB list as an alternative to Maverick when everyone else at my local shop started playing the same list. The best part is the fact that there are so many opportunities to interact with my opponent, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drop a Deed and wipe away someone's entire board.

Question: why does a deck splashing blue have to run 4x Force of Will? Why not just splash it for awesome value guys like Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle?

To help shore up the unfair matchups. And with all the 2 for 1s you cast, the drawback of FOW becomes much less as the games go on. Plus you can realistically hardcast it in this deck.

[Osmin]

I start playing Rector build recently. But I don't own Moat and don't plan to buy it in the near future. So my list is:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Academy Rector
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Stony Silence


Diabolic Intent was great as an additional discard outlet. Elspeth underperforms but I still didn't play against Miracles.
I want to discuss sideboard strategy (at least against most popular decks). My assumptions:
RUG:
+3 Carpets and may be +1 Chains of Mephistopheles
-1 Phyrexian Arena (RUG is fast) -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho (too slow to cycle)

Maverick:
+1 Curse of Death's Hold
-1 Elspeth

Elves:
+1 Curse of Death's Hold +1 Humility
-1 Kokusho -1 Elspeth

Miracles:
+3 Carpet of Flowers +1 Memoricide +1 Cranial Extraction +2 Extirpate
-4 Veteran Explorer -1 Vindicate -2 Swords to Plowshares

ANT/TES:
+1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +1 Chains of Mephistopheles +1 Stony Silence +3 Extirpate +1 Stony Silence
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Vindicate -2 Elspeth -1 Faith's Fetters -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Kokusho

Show-and-Tell-decks:
+1 Humility +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +3 Extirpate
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho

Reanimator:
+1 Humility +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide +3 Extirpate +1 Ooze
-2 Swords to Plowshares -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho -1 Vindicate

High Tide:
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles +3 Extirpate +3 Carpet of Flowers +1 Cranial Extraction +1 Memoricide
-2 Swords to Plowshares -4 Veteran Explorer -2 Elspeth -1 Kokusho

Hmm... I think I never side in tutors and almost always side out Elspeths.
Does anyone have any advices on list, sideboard and overall strategy? My meta consists of Mavericks, Miracles, RUGs and rarely of Merfolks, Elves, Goblins and High Tide.

[jbone2016]

So...how is the best way to deal with Omniscience?
Hope and pray?

[Megadeus]

@Osmin, how have you done so far? You maybe be able to cut elspeths for something else. You seem to have a lot of 4,5,and 6 CmC things. If you are going to use those you may want a back up ramp engine of some kind.

As for Omniscience, I'd say your best bet would be to just run an anti combo gameplan of discard plus pressure. It's essentially just like any other SnT deck.

Also I dont think I would run less than 4 GSZ in any version other than the blue splash version. Even then, you are cutting the best card in the deck

[Osmin]

@Osmin, how have you done so far?

Not so good. Only one 4-round tournament and I still learning not to make errors and misplays :frown:
1-1 vs Maverick
0-2 vs Elves
In first game I was able to Vindicate my Rector to find Deed, but didn't do it. In second game I played Deed and destroyed 13 elves but opp plays Caller of the Claw eot :cry:
0-1 vs RUG
Possibly 1-1 if I had more time. In first game he was very fast.
2-0 vs MonoGreen homebrew

[slikwilly]

@All -- is anyone going to SCG MN? I seem to remember a few people talking about it a while back. If you're going, what version are you running, what do you expect, etc. Let's get some discussion going for those people so they can be as prepared as possible.

I'm going. Waffling between UR Delver and Rector Fit w/o Moat. I suspect Delver is a better choice because I think last week's OmniTell deck w/ rectors is gonna result in more yard hate (and increased awareness of the intervening if clause on rector).

That said I may stick w/ rector fit for one reason: it is much more fun to play.

[Star|Scream]

So I've started testing giftless fit and I was was looking for some feedback.

Here is the list.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [R] Bayou
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
3 [PC2] Baleful Strix
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [M12] Grave Titan
2 [CMD] Eternal Witness
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
2 [DIS] Coiling Oracle
1 [MBS] Consecrated Sphinx
1 [CHK] Keiga, the Tide Star

// Spells
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [M13] Negate
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [HOP] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [M13] Duress


My blue count including FOW is 16, which is low, however most games it can be hardcast, and the ramp/card advantage helps draw into blue. I wouldn't mind upping it a bit.

Hands with both coiling oracle and Baleful strix can be awkward, and are the only real strain on the manabase I can tell. I think I may need one more land, but what to cut?

I sometimes feel clogged. Hands like pulse, deed, force, sphinx with no ramp are horrible. It feels like there's a gap missing between the 1-2/1's and the fatties. Perhaps Thrun in the main is needed or another ooze like Caleb suggests?

The sphinx is great. 2 cards on their turn vs ANY deck is great.

[bruizar]

@Starscream: Don't forget you could opt to run 3 Force of Will like Esperblade, and perhaps sideboard in the 4th against combo.

Personally, I don't think Force of Will is the right card. Pitching Balefulstrix or Shardless Agent is more like a 3 for 1 than a 2 for 1.

I'm pretty big on Envelop myself. It's more narrow, but it counters Show and Tell, Burning Wish and Entreat the Angels (unless you're staring at a counterbalance lock).

[Qweerios]

I have recently done some testing and ran a gauntlet against Shardless Fit with Counterbalance(this deck drowns in CA) and have concluded that blue was probably the natural evolution of Nic Fit.

Moving away from black to concentrate on blue is extremely beneficial for the combo and control deck while reducing the black investment yields minimal drawback on the aggro matchup.

In most cases:

-Jace > Liliana
-Brainstorm > Innocent Blood

Force of Will will never be viable in this deck until they start printing good green and blue creatures that are both GSZ-able and pitch-able to FoW.

Here is the Gifts Fit list I have brewed in an attempt to become more blue centric:


Creatures (13)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Hornet Queen
1 Grave Titan
1 Vendilion Clique / Consecrated Sphinx / Sphinx of Uthuun / Thrun, the Last Troll

Spells (24)
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse / Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Wasteland


I replaced Primeval Titan with Hornet Queen because she is as good against SnT, can be used defensively (or as a preemptive measure against Entreat), harder to remove, and therefore, is more threatening.

The flex spots are buging me (pun intended)... In theory, Clique should act as my Thrun because I pack Karakas. In practice, however, I don't know yet. I really enjoy Clique in general as a card as a response to SnT, Miracles, and SFM activations. It is extremely versatile.

Thrun is my default spot because a shrouded beater is always something you can fall back on.

I am not yet sold on the Sphinxes (Consecrated or Uthuun) but they are certainly appealing considering that my threat count is low. For my defense, I do pack Gifts and the Volrath Tower combo which have very powerful synergy with Witness, Thragtusk, Hornet Queen, and Grave Titan, giving me access to my few beaters countless times. Exile removal or definitely an issue but I can usually ride the tokens generated to victory. I also have Jace ultimate now in very late-game/last resort scenarios. I think I would favor Consecrated over Uthuun because of SnT + Grisselbrand, otherwise, I think the immediate Fact or Fiction effect combined with the slightly bigger body makes the 7 mana investment well worth it over Consecrated.

An idea I have been tweaking with against Miracle is a transformational SB where I take out 4 Therapies, 4 Explorers, 1-2 creatures in favor of 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Negates, and 1-2 Cliques. The therapy/explorer interaction against Miracle control is definitely a losing bargain that we can do without.

In other news, I will be attending the Standard/Legacy CMT in Toronto this weekend. I intend to play either this list or my regular BuG Gifts list.

[bruizar]

@Qweerios:

This is going more and more into the direction of the lists we were playing. I am not going to bore you with our findings concerning some of the cards (mostly coiling oracle/Jace). We ended up cutting them but I can see how you would want to try it for now, and it's probably better to evaluate it in your own meta. Regardless of the discussion/personal preference of Gifts or Intuition, I think you are on the right path here saying that blue is the natural evolution of the deck. Brainstorm does a lot for this deck, as it allows you to dump uncastable cards and exchange them for value. The thinning of fetch and explorers also help increase the value of Brainstorm, digging you into more business. That said, I urge you to try out Gitaxian Probe as well when you have the chance. Between Probe and Clique, you should be a Cabal Therapy / Meddling Mage (should you opt to splash white) master.

[litenkatt]

Hello guys

Haven't been nic fit for quite some time (haven't been playing at all actually) and I went through the 10 pages or so and seems like the Blue version and GBw with academy rector is where you want to be now. Unfortunately I don't have money to buy jace/intution/tropical/moat etc so those options are not for me.

There's a tournament incoming in 3 weeks, whereas first place gets qualified for another tournament which has some really nice prices. I am going to play a classic GB version and this is how my list looks like

1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder

1 Skeletal Scrying

3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Sensei's Divining Top


1 Karn Liberated
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Forest
5 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

SD

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 Duress
1 Damnation

What I am worried about is
- UR Delver or other burn decks
- Combo decks (storm, belcher, cephalid breakfast)
- U/W Miracle control or BUG Control

Would appreciate if I could get some advices how to play against these decks

[Cire_dk]

Question: Is a one off Omniscience an option in a rector deck?

It seems a great tutortarget and especially in the GBw version they do not see it coming. Of course it can be a dead card but Top will help a lot. Maybe a bit tricky with Phyrexian Arena?

[slikwilly]

Question: Is a one off Omniscience an option in a rector deck?

I have thought about it, but since we have no way to put it back into the library and no cantrips to try to draw into action and nothing like the petals of insight win con I rejected the idea.

[Megadeus]

@litencat looks pretty stock. I would personally drop a prime Titan for a second Grave Titan, and deranged Hermit for a Thragtusk. Playing against burn you just have to minimize the early damage, because once you can get a finks or Thragtusk down you win.

[Arianrhod]

@Qweerios -- for as good as Sigarda is for white versions, have you thought about [cards]Simic Sky Swallower[/b] for a wincon? It's pricey, but at the point at which you're willing to pull the trigger and run Hornet Queen, I think you should be on-board with SSS. It's huge, it's got shroud, evasion, and it tramples over Lingering Souls or Delvers. Seems like it's pretty much everything you want.

Despite not being GSZ-able, I feel like blue versions really should be running Baleful Strix. The fact that it's got deathtouch is just enormous...it doesn't -seem- like it's that impressive, but it's much better in play than one would expect. Space is obviously a concern, though.

I'm starting to have a heretical thought. I'll post more if it checks out....not going to clog the thread if it ends up being bad.

@Cire_DK -- Slikwilly nailed it in one. I've thought about it, and dismissed it every time.

@Litenkatt -- You definitely want some TUSK action in there somewhere. I don't know GB well enough to make comments on what to cut, but Not running Thragtusk in this deck feels sinful. Card is way too good for us.

Also, I wouldn't necessary say that our discussion is indicative of anything regarding the general strength and weakness of the different versions. It's just that the past number of pages, we've been talking about Rector and Gifts a lot. I definitely wouldn't take that to mean that the G/B, Scapewish, or any other version is less viable at the moment.

@Slikwilly -- Ordinarily I'd say you're right RE ShowRectorOmni or whatever the fuck they're calling it. However, I don't think that it's actually sunk in that it could be a real deck yet. From what I've heard, a lot of people are thinking it's just a rogue brew that won't have any actual impact on the format. I think that if you want to play Rector at this week's SCG, you're probably safe to do so. If ShowRectorOmni takes off, then it'll definitely be a good idea to let that lay low for a while. I just don't see it taking off over the dedicated OmniTell deck, frankly. Rector seems largely unnecessary in the archetype. What does your Rector list look like? If you do decide to run it, let's get it as looked over as we can.

@Osmin -- I'd definitely cut the Elspeths in a heartbeat. They're only good in the Moat versions where you need the ability to give shit wings. No Moat, no Elspeth, no problem. You should definitely put in at least one Sakura-Tribe Elder, and then I'm not sure what you want beyond that. SKE has been a huge help not just as another source of ramp (and one that works vs Leyline of the Void), but also because it puts a creature in the graveyard early, which can sometimes be an issue if you naturally draw Nightmare in the early.

@StarScream -- I feel like Keiga isn't very good at all, and I think that you want a 2nd Jace over a 1-of Liliana, especially in a Gifts-less version. You probably want SSS as a big fatty boomboom to close games, and I'd recommend a Fact or Fiction or two as backup card advantage engines. 3 Forces is probably correct, since the deck appears to have the same tempo as Esperblade overall. You can board Flusterstorms for the combo matchups....3 Forces means you can mull to them vs Belcher or other combo, and not be as dependent on them. Your blue cards are all good enough that you only want to Force when it's critical, and you never want them vs fair decks unless you can hardcast.

More Oracles will help with that clogging sensation. It helps that Coiling Oracle is one of the most fun cards to cast in the entire game (not fun as in really really good [though it is]....fun as in actually fun).

[bruizar]

Simic Sky Swallower really does nothing. Goyf can beat just as hard for 1G. Just because you run blue doesn't mean the criteria should be:
*too expensive to cast in the first 4 turns
*pitches to fow
*GSZ'able

Who cares if Goyf doesn't have shroud? Come on guys, this is legacy. Please don't tell me SSS is better than Goyf, cause it's not true. A 4 turn clock for 7 mana that gets raced by goyf or knight or ooze and does not win you the game or at least saves you from losing the game is not good enough. What's next? Hardcast Krosan Cloudscraper?

[Arianrhod]

I'm going to alter your criteria a little:

Too expensive to cast in the first 4 turns -> High enough of a CMC that it doesn't die to Deed.

I dislike overly expensive things, but I like things that don't die to our own Deeds when we sweep the board. This is one reason I really, really hate Hornet Queen. If you need to crack a Deed, you're left with a 2/2 Flying Deathtouch FOR SEVEN.

Having some sort of evasion and being GSZable are both pluses....I think that pitching to FoW isn't a bad thing, but it's not necessary for a bomb either.

Consider the role that Qweerios wants. He wants to win the game once he's stabilized. 2/1 beatdown won't get there very often. ConSphinx is okay, but it's very likely going to die immediately because it provides ludicrous advantage. That's fine -- you'll usually draw at least 2 cards off of it, and scare Griselbrand decks away from doing their strongest play (drawing 14). But it doesn't have protection, and it gets chumped all day.

IMO, expensive CMC wincons in -any- Nic Fit list should fit most of the following criteria:
-) Enters or leaves play trigger, or powerful activated ability that does not require tapping (does something)
-) Has protection of some sort
-) Has a high CMC so it doesn't die to Deed (rules out Avenger of Zendikar as well)
-) Has evasion of some kind
-) Being green is a plus
-) Synergizes overall with the rest of the specific list

Obviously a lot of the six-drops we tend to run fail a lot of these. Sun Titan, for example, has a broken enters trigger, a high CMC, tons of synergy, and evasion if Deed is around (blow deed while holding priority in the declare attacks step). It's not green, and it doesn't have protection at all. SunnyT is one of the better options, but it doesn't fill all the criteria.

Let's look at SSS:
-) No trigger
-) All of the protection
-) High CMC
-) Has evasion (twice over)
-) Is green
-) Has synergy, kind of.

The reason I say it has some synergy is because it fills a role that Qweerios's deck appears to need. His deck needs a shroudy evasion critter that brings big beats. I'm not saying that SSS is better than Goyf...that's silly. What I am saying, is that SSS is better than Goyf in the role Qweerios needs filled. Obviously not having a trigger is a big deal, and the fact that it costs 7 is also a big deal.

If it was an option, I'd tell Qweerios to run Sigarda in a heartbeat. She's tons better than SSS, I fully grant. But he's not in white (let alone double white). His options are more limited. I'm not even on-board that he wants a 7-drop in the first place.

But, if he's willing to run Hornet Queen, there is no reason not to run SSS.

Sure it loses the race to Goyf/Knight/Ooze. But they also lose the race to Pernicious Deed. And SSS will just sit there turning sideways every turn, and there isn't a goddamn thing that your opponent can do about it.

[Star|Scream]

I have recently done some testing and ran a gauntlet against Shardless Fit with Counterbalance(this deck drowns in CA) and have concluded that blue was probably the natural evolution of Nic Fit.

Can you elaborate more on this? Was it close to Caleb's deck from the article?

Also I have to agree about Baleful Strix. Obv early game Oracle is the better 2 drop, but once you have a few lands out the strix really helps bridge the gap before you can land your fatties. It also draws out removal, unlike oracle, making it a cantripping duress for UB

[Arianrhod]

Has anyone else considered trying Future Sight in any of the various blue versions? It seems like a strong bomb, and between Top (1: Draw a card) and our copious shuffles, we should be able to abuse it. I haven't actually tried it yet, but it seems interesting.

[Star|Scream]

I'm going to alter your criteria a little:

Too expensive to cast in the first 4 turns -> High enough of a CMC that it doesn't die to Deed.

I dislike overly expensive things, but I like things that don't die to our own Deeds when we sweep the board. This is one reason I really, really hate Hornet Queen. If you need to crack a Deed, you're left with a 2/2 Flying Deathtouch FOR SEVEN.

Having some sort of evasion and being GSZable are both pluses....I think that pitching to FoW isn't a bad thing, but it's not necessary for a bomb either.

Consider the role that Qweerios wants. He wants to win the game once he's stabilized. 2/1 beatdown won't get there very often. ConSphinx is okay, but it's very likely going to die immediately because it provides ludicrous advantage. That's fine -- you'll usually draw at least 2 cards off of it, and scare Griselbrand decks away from doing their strongest play (drawing 14). But it doesn't have protection, and it gets chumped all day.

IMO, expensive CMC wincons in -any- Nic Fit list should fit most of the following criteria:
-) Enters or leaves play trigger, or powerful activated ability that does not require tapping (does something)
-) Has protection of some sort
-) Has a high CMC so it doesn't die to Deed (rules out Avenger of Zendikar as well)
-) Has evasion of some kind
-) Being green is a plus
-) Synergizes overall with the rest of the specific list

Obviously a lot of the six-drops we tend to run fail a lot of these. Sun Titan, for example, has a broken enters trigger, a high CMC, tons of synergy, and evasion if Deed is around (blow deed while holding priority in the declare attacks step). It's not green, and it doesn't have protection at all. SunnyT is one of the better options, but it doesn't fill all the criteria.

Let's look at SSS:
-) No trigger
-) All of the protection
-) High CMC
-) Has evasion (twice over)
-) Is green
-) Has synergy, kind of.

The reason I say it has some synergy is because it fills a role that Qweerios's deck appears to need. His deck needs a shroudy evasion critter that brings big beats. I'm not saying that SSS is better than Goyf...that's silly. What I am saying, is that SSS is better than Goyf in the role Qweerios needs filled. Obviously not having a trigger is a big deal, and the fact that it costs 7 is also a big deal.

If it was an option, I'd tell Qweerios to run Sigarda in a heartbeat. She's tons better than SSS, I fully grant. But he's not in white (let alone double white). His options are more limited. I'm not even on-board that he wants a 7-drop in the first place.

But, if he's willing to run Hornet Queen, there is no reason not to run SSS.

Sure it loses the race to Goyf/Knight/Ooze. But they also lose the race to Pernicious Deed. And SSS will just sit there turning sideways every turn, and there isn't a goddamn thing that your opponent can do about it.

I think the issue here is that if you land hornet queen while your opponent has a goyf out you don't need deed. Further, hornet queen stops emrakul and grizzy. I'm not saying it's what should be run, but I do think that fills what he's looking for better than SSS.

[HoneyT]

@litenkatt

Megadeus nailed it as far as changes go. For your expected metagame you described, cutting Primeval for another Grave Titan and swapping the Hermit for ThragTUSK are the best changes. Primeval doesn't do much for you unless you have a couple extra utility lands. I use him in my straight GB version when I also run two Treetop Villages so he does a good Grave Titan impersonation. Since you aren't, another Grave is just better. And as Arianrhod said, TUSK is just too insane not to play. Try him. You will be a believer. Other than that the list looks just fine.

@Arianrhod

Truth be told here, this might be the first time I've disagreed with you, but for Qweerios' needs, for the reasons Star Scream listed, I think Hornet Queen is better than SSS in that particular build. I don't care for the Queen too much either, but I do think it's better there.

[Star|Scream]

Has anyone else considered trying Future Sight in any of the various blue versions? It seems like a strong bomb, and between Top (1: Draw a card) and our copious shuffles, we should be able to abuse it. I haven't actually tried it yet, but it seems interesting.

What is the intereaction in a tournament with future sight and top? Do you keep the top card revealed while looking at cards 2+3 hidden? Same thing with brainstorm. As you draw 3 cards, do you flip over the 4th card, then unflip it and put two back?

[Fropper]

Regarding Futuresight

5/1/2007: If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell or activating an ability, the new top card won't be revealed until you finish casting that spell or activating that ability.
5/1/2007: If you draw multiple cards at once, reveal each one before you draw it.

[Star|Scream]

Regarding Futuresight

5/1/2007: If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell or activating an ability, the new top card won't be revealed until you finish casting that spell or activating that ability.
5/1/2007: If you draw multiple cards at once, reveal each one before you draw it.

bleh. But I guess it won't matter if you're brainstorming AND getting to cast the next card as well

Draw Draw Draw, put back a creature and a land, flip the land, play the land, play the creature, play next card. If any deck could have enough mana to completely abuse that card, it's this one.

Seems ridiculous, but it can't be that easy in practice, can it?

[Arianrhod]

I dunno. I remember some time back I saw a Thopter deck that was running Future Sight. He was just completely going off with it...even without playing off the top of your deck, paying 1 mana to draw a card is pretty batshit. (Draw off Top, play it for 1 from the top of your deck, draw off Top, etc as many times as you want). I think it's worth experimenting with at bare minimum.

And yeah, you reveal each card you draw off of Brainstorm...but you won't reveal when you're looking with Top.

[slikwilly]

@Slikwilly -- Ordinarily I'd say you're right RE ShowRectorOmni or whatever the fuck they're calling it. However, I don't think that it's actually sunk in that it could be a real deck yet. From what I've heard, a lot of people are thinking it's just a rogue brew that won't have any actual impact on the format. I think that if you want to play Rector at this week's SCG, you're probably safe to do so. If ShowRectorOmni takes off, then it'll definitely be a good idea to let that lay low for a while. I just don't see it taking off over the dedicated OmniTell deck, frankly. Rector seems largely unnecessary in the archetype. What does your Rector list look like? If you do decide to run it, let's get it as looked over as we can.

Good question. I haven't been able to play for a couple weeks and like the look of your most recent list. It'll probably be something similar though I lack a Moat. Possibly a Humility in that slot since it also plays nice with Elspeth (though it solves a different class of problems). I also like having a Stronghold in addition to Nightmare, so I'll be running the extra land.

Have you had any trouble with 22 lands in a 62 card deck?

[Arianrhod]

@Slikwilly -- It's 61 actually, and no =) The manabase has actually been in its currently configuration for quite a long while now...it's been perfect for me. I've never been too impressed with Stronghold outside of AggroLoam, but if you want to use it, go nuts. I've always thought that Nightmare does it better, and with Rectors to tutor it...no need for a third colorless land. But, again, I'll emphasize that it's my personal preference, and I don't believe there to be an appreciable difference.

[slikwilly]

@Slikwilly -- It's 61 actually, and no =) The manabase has actually been in its currently configuration for quite a long while now...it's been perfect for me. I've never been too impressed with Stronghold outside of AggroLoam, but if you want to use it, go nuts. I've always thought that Nightmare does it better, and with Rectors to tutor it...no need for a third colorless land. But, again, I'll emphasize that it's my personal preference, and I don't believe there to be an appreciable difference.

So it is. Lets hope I can count mana on Sunday better than I can count cards in your deck today :)

Stronghold has saved my but before, so I like to have it, though in the past I've also only run 2 Rectors, so maybe now running 3 the Stronghold is expendable.

There's a few other changes I'll have to make due to card avx: -1 Baneslayer, -1 Eternal Witness (not happy about that, I've got another but it's not in my possession at the moment), -1 Top. I think I'm filling those slots as +1 Eladrami's Call (though w/ only Baneslayer an obvious target this is a questionable choice), +1 Ooze, +1 Thrun.

[Megadeus]

I forget who was asking about the straight GB version but I personally think it is the best. If nothing at least the most tuned. And being able to run Hymn is sooo good. Also it has the best mana base by far as well. I like my fires build because it's a fun engine. But GB is so well tuned

[jbone2016]

So at scgminn this weekend (hometown, yay, no long car rides) I'll be playing rector fit.
Now, I like Eladrami's Call a lot but I haven't played with chord of calling at all yet.

My big fatties will be thrun, sigarda, tusk, percy, sun titan and baneslayer.

thoughts?

[Arianrhod]

I don't like Percy at all, personally. If you're on Moat, Thrun is bad. If not, he's fine. Eladrami's Call is the safe choice for this event, since Chord of Calling is very much in development still.

Also, @ Slik Calling for Rector is perfectly fine. Without the 2nd Baneslayer it gets a little more sad, but it's still good. You could try to get an E.Wit on site...probably wouldn't be too expensive. I'd also try to acquire the 3rd Top if at all possible....the Baneslayer can be subbed for a Call if necessary, and then replace Moat with Ooze. That seems fine. 3rd Top and 2nd Witness are both pretty crucial though =(

[Megadeus]

I still don't think that you need more than 2 tops. It is a good car but not a needed card. Green Sun a lot of the time is enough deck manipulation.

[litenkatt]

Appreciate your advices. I made few changes:
+1 Thragtusk
-1 Deranged Hermit

+1 Garruk Relentless
-1 Karn Liberated
I am really not sure about this. It just feels like Karn is too slow, and I have good win conditions already. Garruk might help me a bit more against aggro decks. Perhaps I should just skip the 3rd planeswalker and go with something else but I really dont know what.

+2 Treetop Village
-1 Swamp
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
Volrath's Stronghold is also a card I feel might be too slow. Though it's nice to search for tower+stronghold with primeval titan, but I think 2x treetop village is stronger. Should also help me a bit more against aggro decks. It's also quite saucey(is that even a word?) that you can use treetop village for Recurring Nightmare sheningans.

CREATURES (15)
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Dryad Arbor
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
SORCERIES (11)
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
INSTANTS (1)
1 Skeletal Scrying
PLANESWALKERS (3)
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
4 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Treetop Village
4 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower

[Kung Fu English]

On my way to a local legacy tourney. Expecting like 20 people probably. Last time there was rug delver, lands, Spanish inq, dredge, storm, I know high tide will make an appearance today. Here is my list as it stands.


Creature (17)
1x Academy Rector
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Grave Titan
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (5)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares

Land (23)
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath

Sorcery (11)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
1x Vindicate

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
3x Extirpate
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Chains of Mephistopheles

Last thought is: maybe -1 master and -1 thought seize for +2 liliana of the veil?

[Megadeus]

@ Kung Fu English:
With a meta like that I would try out mainboarding Teeg over master of the Wild hunt

[jbone2016]

It seems that this new Show and tell/rector deck will see some play this weekend. Rector is $20 and sold out at #scgminn.

[mordraid]

what about diabolic intent in the rector build ? sacrifice the rector to get omniscience in play and get wharver bomb you want with the diabolic intent and cast it for free. It doesn't cost a lot of cards for the rector builds and diabolic intent can be use with veteran explorer as well, so it's not a dead card if you don't have rector in play.

Maybe it's been talked before but i haven't seen it.

[Osmin]

what about diabolic intent in the rector build ? sacrifice the rector to get omniscience in play and get wharver bomb you want with the diabolic intent and cast it for free. It doesn't cost a lot of cards for the rector builds and diabolic intent can be use with veteran explorer as well, so it's not a dead card if you don't have rector in play.

Maybe it's been talked before but i haven't seen it.

I play diabolic intent in rector build. And it is very good. The main problem with omniscience is that you can draw it manually. And there is no way to return it back to the library.

[bruizar]

what about diabolic intent in the rector build ? sacrifice the rector to get omniscience in play and get wharver bomb you want with the diabolic intent and cast it for free. It doesn't cost a lot of cards for the rector builds and diabolic intent can be use with veteran explorer as well, so it's not a dead card if you don't have rector in play.

Maybe it's been talked before but i haven't seen it.

I suggested it a few pages back with living wish into Emrakul, the way Omniscience combo works. I really think you need Brainstorm in a deck like that though.

[Qweerios]

I've got back from a 6 round event (3 rounds standard and 3 rounds legacy) with BUG Gifts. It was the first time I played a heavy blue Nic Fit list, and to be honest, it was phenomenal. I lost most of my standard matches with my mono black budget control deck and eventually had to drop from the main event after my first legacy round (standard took place before legacy) to play in the side events. I won a box of M13 that I pawned for store credits.

Concerning the main event, taking out Thrun and Wasteland was a grave mistake. My first two rounds of Legacy were against Stoneblade and I lost to Riptide Laboratory, Karakas/Clique, and Academy Ruins/Batterskull/SoFaF. Thragtusk and Clique couldn't successfully replace Thrun and his resilience to control decks. I learned my lesson and reincluded them to my deck and proceeded to crush the Legacy side events. To my biggest surprise, the lack of Liliana and Innocent Blood did not prevent me from completely annihilating RUG. Also, Jace, Brainstorm, and Clique gave me an incredible edge against Miracle and Stoneblade. The transformational sideboard worked extremely well when it came to miracle control (-4 Explorer/Therapy, +4 Negate/Thoughtseize). Sadly, Hornet Queen was an absolute piece of trash in every situation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On to a different topic, a really interresting idea emerged from a session of schizophrenic brainstorming at the hotel. In an attempt to improve Stoneblade, me and my friend created a variant that we named Godoblade. Of course the idea was originaly meant as a joke, but as I thought more about Godo, Bandit Warlord, it struck me that this card might have potential in Jund Fit as a legitimate bomb. Fetching a Batterskull with Godo is much better than landing a Grave Titan or a Broodmate Dragon. Godo grants you Bskull which acts as a recurring and nearly irremovable threat and he can swing for 14 lifelink vigilance damage on the following turn.

Now, I don't think that Jund Fit is the best color out there for the deck, but it is definitely out there. I believe Huntmasters, Burning Wish, and Red Blasts have a lot to offer (especially the blasts) to Nic Fit and Godo might just tip the scales because he seems to janky, and thats a plus. I am not yet sold on Scapeshift because of the extremely shaky manabase but as an Aggro/Control deck, Jund Fit has its strengths.

Without any further ado, I present to you the very experimental:

Godoblade (lol)


Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord

Spells (26)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate
1 Damnation
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Flashfire
1 Tsunami
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[Viridia]

@Bruizar @Omniscience I actually tinkered around with a list that i'll play as soon as i get the cards for it (or a list that looks like it):

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

15 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer


21 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Future Sight
2 Living Wish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Omniscience
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1 Academy Rector
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Force of Will
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize


I does have a very clunky 4 Color-Manabase but i believe that it;s possible to play with it, as soon as i get the missing cards i'll sleeve it and test it :)

[Kung Fu English]

@Bruizar @Omniscience I actually tinkered around with a list that i'll play as soon as i get the cards for it (or a list that looks like it):

Mainboard (60)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

15 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer


21 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Future Sight
2 Living Wish
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Omniscience
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1 Academy Rector
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Force of Will
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize


I does have a very clunky 4 Color-Manabase but i believe that it;s possible to play with it, as soon as i get the missing cards i'll sleeve it and test it :)

I like it. A lot actually. But I think if you want to be going this plan then you should be in more. Go for the full 3 Rectors/1 SB and 4 living wishes. Prob -2 Top and -1 Recurring Nightmare for this IMO, you have enough brainstorm effects without top and nightmare is probably not what you need to be doing with omni available. Or you could -1 Deed from MD instead.

And SB needs some number of Karakas/Maze of Ith as wish targets so you can totally take a dump on sneak and show :P

[bruizar]

For reference, here is a Show and Tell deck utilizing some familiar cards from nic fit.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1050



Michael Svien's Show and Know
Legacy – Top 8, StarCityGames Open, Denver


Main Deck
60 cards

3 Cavern of Souls
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
20 lands

3 Academy Rector
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
9 creatures

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Living Wish
3 Lotus Petal
2 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
31 other spells


Sideboard
1 Academy Rector
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Force of Will
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Viridian Shaman
15 sideboard cards

[litenkatt]

I played few games as a straight GB version. I just don't like it. Missing swords, sigarda and sun titan is just.. not good. GB version is auto lose game 1 against reanimate, whereas if you go white splash you have swords at least (reanimater seems to be the most popular deck in my meta)

White splash also has a better sideboard against combo decks. (Ethersworn canonist, e.tutor).

I have two questions

1. Recurring nightmare. Is this card good enough ? I mean with thragtusk and eternal witness that card is sickness, but I'm not sure. What's your thoughts on this card?

2. Thinking of going with 61 cards. Is this viable? Has anyone tried this?

[HoneyT]

@litenkatt

Re: G/B

It certainly isn't an auto loss game one vs reanimator. You just have to get familiar with the matchup. Between Lilanas, Innocent Bloods, being smart with Therapies, and prioritizing getting Scavenging Ooze online, you have plenty of tools at your disposal. And game two gets better from there with extra discard and Extirpates.

I'm not saying white isn't better for that matchup, just that it is far from an auto loss game 1.

Re: Recurring Nightmare

It's a phenomenal card when you get it online and can go nuts with it. That said, most versions can't do that with any kind of consistency. Because of that, I wouldn't play it outside the Rector version right now.

Re: 61 cards

It's certainly viable. I know Arianrhod has been advocating 61 for quite some time now and has been having plenty of success. I'll let him elaborate there.

@Qweerios

Re: Godoblade

Will you marry me?

[Arianrhod]

Watching the stream on SCG right now, all I can think is just how terrible straight Jund (no PFire, no Scapeshift) Nic Fit is.

[_Fe_]

I don't think that deck can be considered Nic Fit, he's only running a single Explorer.

[Arianrhod]

Wasn't aware of that -- guess they must have said it at the start of the round, which I missed. Even still, it's close enough to Nic Fit to justify watching...and this is just painful to watch on so many levels.

Also, I want to strangle Jacob Van Lunen. Seriously, there's a reason I hate the SCG stream =.=;;

[litenkatt]

Did anyone watch when the BUG(caleb i think it was?)nic fit player played against merfolk? It was a sweet victory and I really hope he makes it to the top8

[bruizar]

@Qweerios: Please check out the MUD thread to see the discussion on Godo, Bandit Warlord / Batterskull. I've been having some success with Godo for a while now and I can tell you he's nuts. Not sure how he is in nic-fit, but godo has been amazing for me for the last 8 months.



I have been testing Godo for the last 8 months and I know that he's the single best creature that MUD can run. In my current build, I now run 0 Wurmcoil Engines, because the card simply sucks. If you want to win with MUD you need to proof of Swords to Plowshares and counterspells. Godo does insane damage, no really.. Turn 1 Grim Monolith into turn 2 Godo is a beating that not many decks can handle. Godo totally trumps control as double plowshares or Terminus is actually bad against Godo. He's also a rockstar against Jace and outmuscles opposing Stoneforge Mystics.





Please explain. How does Godo evade StP without SoLS or SoWP? CoS can make Godo uncounterable, but CoS can make any of our threats uncounterable. And I do not see how Godo trumps Terminus.



If your opponent plows your Godo, you still have the Skull + Germ token which he fetched. If he plows the Germ too, he has used 2 StP and you can still bounce and replay Skull. Same with Terminus, leaves you still with Skull in play.


The rationale behind Godo is that everything in MUD should be resistant to Swords to Plowshares (and Jace). On that note, Wurmcoil got cut from the list. Other cards that didn't quiet make the cut for me that do this are Etched Champion and Duplicant. The biggest play this deck has is Chalice of the Void for 1. Karn Liberated is the most expensive threat I run, and it is also resistant to Swords to Plowshares. Even though MUD has the mana to cast insanely powerful and expensive threats, doesn't mean you are untouchable against tempo plays such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Pierce or Force of Will. This is the reason why Cavern of Souls and Chalice of the Void play such a big role in the deck. They help you resolve and protect your insanely powerful plays.

Metalworker: Relying too much on Metalworker is not so smart, because it increases the importance of Swords to Plowshares in your match-ups. This is the reason why I run other acceleration as well. Again, to lower the impact of Swords to Plowshares (and Lightning Bolt). Instead, the focus is on a lower curve. Having castable threats with minimal mana acceleration support helps decrease the value of Spell Pierce, which will surely pick on your Grim Monolith's and Dynamo's.

Blightsteel Colossus: is really bad. It is a dead draw without an insane Metalworker hand or without an active Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Scenario 1: Metalworker with Blightsteel Colossus: If you have a hand full of artifacts, do you really care about spending 12 mana for a Blightsteel Colossus? You probably win the game just by throwing your hand on the table anyway.

Scenario 2: Kuldotha Forgemaster with Blightsteel Colossus: This deck already has major problems fighting RUG. Do you really want to expose yourself to the omnipresent stifle and swords to plowshares like this (meta=Maverick/RUG/Blade/Miracle)? Even if you can do your trick without getting Swords to Plowshares or Stifled, Kuldotha Forgemaster costs 5 mana and metalcraft. Forgemaster has summoning sickness, and Blightsteel Colossus has summoning Sickness too. That means that your BSC will be able to attack 2 turns after you resolve your Kuldotha Forgemaster. Moltensteel Dragon costs 4 mana, and usually finishes the game in 1 or 2 hits, which is quicker, or at worst on-par with BSC (BSC getting blocked sux). It is easier to cast than Kuldotha Forgemaster, doesn't expose you to stifle, and doesnt lead to dead draws with Blightsteel Colossus. It also provides a blocker against Delver. Moltensteel Dragon is a better version of Blightsteel Colossus, and Kuldotha Forgemaster is just, really really bad, especially post-board when you can expect things like Ancient Grudge against you.

Qweerios: I don't understand why you would run Umezawa's Jitte over Sword of X/Y though. Godo will die on the first attack if you don't protect him with a sword, making the Jitte, just really bad.

[Arianrhod]

Looks like someone running my ScapeWish version made top 8 at SCG...hopefully it's someone from on here so we can get a good report =)

[jbone2016]

Looks like someone running my ScapeWish version made top 8 at SCG...hopefully it's someone from on here so we can get a good report =)

Including me, I know of at least 5 ppl playing nic fit. 2 (including me) playing rector fit. A local guy plaiying pod version. Caleb playing BUG version and the scapewish....which lost to goblins in top 8

[Arianrhod]

I saw that Caleb got 24th -- how did the rest of you do?

[jbone2016]

I saw that Caleb got 24th -- how did the rest of you do?

Blake (pod) finished 36th. Me (rector) 89th (I started 3-0-1) :(. the other rector...not sure (I believe he is on this thread).

Even after 9 rounds, I'm itching to play more.

I actually lost to the mono-blue tempo deck (which is in top 8) in round 6.

[Star|Scream]

Just played against RUG delver and they sided in Winter Orb. Seriously? ffffuuuuu

[slikwilly]

Blake (pod) finished 36th. Me (rector) 89th (I started 3-0-1) :(. the other rector...not sure (I believe he is on this thread).

I had an extremely poor outing, ended up dropping after 6 to begin the long ride home.

Some quick notes:
Round 1 - Merfolk (this guy ended up 14th):
G1 - he scooped after I landed Yosei. That was satisfying. He probably didn't have to, I think he was just conserving time as the game had gone on for a while thanks to him playing a Standstill while I had Elspeth and he had a mutavault. He ended up breaking his own Standstill after about 3 turns which let me play Yosei.
G2 - don't recall much but I lost
G3 - Landed a Sun Titan after cracked Deed 4 times (1 thanks to E.Witness). Then he dropped a Gilded Drake and I got sad. Fortunately I had a Humility in hand, so I dropped that before he could recur anything. Unfortunately I ran out of removal before he ran out of 1/1's (and a Mutavault which is still a 2/2 w/ a Humility out). Really wished that had been a Moat. I bought a Moat on ebay on the drive home.
0 - 1

Round 2 - Affinity
G1 - she played out her hand, I cracked a Deed and a proceed to mop up.
G2 - I kept a hand w/ Therapy, Explorer, Zenith. She played T1 Grafdiggers Cage. Eledamris Call proved how awesome it was in this game. Deeded the board away again, the landed Baneslayer + Sigarda.
1 - 1

Round 3 - Omnitell
G1 - I sorta know this guy and figured he was on the S&T plan, so turn 1 I Therapy and call S&T. It whiffs, but I see City of Traitors confirming my thought. He top decks S&T, plays the City, drops Omniscience and gets medieval on me with Burning Wish -> Living Wish -> Emrakul.
G2 - Mull to 5. Kept a hand that had a Therapy, called S&T and whiffed again. Doesn't take long before he lands an Omni.
1 - 2

Round 4 - Nic Fit blue
G1 - he nickel and dimed me down to 3 before I stabilized with Deed + Sun Titan I think.
G2 - Again he's on the train to value town w/ Strixes and Oracles and slowly gets me down to 3. I thought I stabilized but then he draw a beater before me, playing Thragtusk.
G3 - This game was insane. He landed Hornet Queen 3 times. Yes, 3. He finally managed to get there off the hornets in turns. Note to self: do not Deed away the queen, it will just come back thanks to Eternal Witness. (He did that once, I can't recall how the third came about.)
1 - 3 (in spite of the loss, this is exactly the kind of ridiculous match that I have entirely too much fun with)

Round 5 - Thopter Sword thing w/ Puresteel and too many Paths and Plowshares
G1 - Yosei lock for the win! (Pernicious Deed also did good work.)
G2 - Don't quite recall what happened here, but it ended badly for me.
G3 - We started w/ about 4 minutes left. 2 Explorers + 1 Rector are not gonna get there in time. They will earn a draw though.
1 - 3 - 1

Round 6 - High Tide
Not much to say here. If there's a way for us to beat High Tide someone please tell me.
1 - 4 - 1 & drop

So... not the best showing. It pains me to love playing this deck so much and yet have such poor results. Wish I could find the time to really practice with it.

Things I think I know:
1) Eladrami's Call is here to stay. It's instant, it works around Cage, and it finds anything.
2) I cut a Zenith for the Call. I want that Zenith back.
3) Many was the time where I looked at the following hand: Thereapy, Explorer, Rector. Too many sac targets, too few sac outlets (4 therapy, 2 tower, 1 nightmare). Want to find a home for Diabolic Intent.
4) I like Sakura-Tribe Elder, but not 3. It's nice early and good to get that all important target creature in the bin to target w/ Recurring Nightmare, but most of the time I was more annoyed by it than anything. ("An Elder? I need to draw things that DO SOMETHING right about now!")

[Megadeus]

You could try dropping eladamris call for diabolic intent

[Alexeezay]

Hey guys, I went 4-1 at the local tourney with Scapewish again.
I like this nic fit version the most and it seems to be the best (so far).
Looking at the SCG Top8, scapewish continues to succeed.
2-1 vs W Stax
2-0 vs GBW Nic Fit
2-0 vs URg Omni & Tell
2-1 vs Burn
1-2 vs URg Omni & Tell

I realized how well scapewish actually fights against unfair decks like Show & Tell (& reanimator etc. prob. too). Red Blasts, Extractions and Burning Wish (especially) do a lot of work. In all the other match ups I don't have to worry that much, scapewish wins most of the time with an average/good opener and draw. Vs Elves & Merfolk you need to be very fast & have Deeds/Wish or you lose. Vs UWMiracle it looks like it depends on play skill & top decks, if you draw discard/top & you're not mana screwed in some way, scapewish usually wins (if not facing eot Entreat without Deed in play).
Also, match ups like the Nic Fit Mirror and Burn feel like a Joke. Scapeshift/B.Wish is a trump card in the mirror & Burn loses against Pyroclasm for Goblin Guide/Blockers/Thragtusk/Huntmaster, same for UR Delver and Canadian Threshhold match ups

[Qweerios]

I think Grafted Exoskeleton and Argentum Armor sound pretty sweet with Godo. 10 infect counters in 1 swing sounds... lethal.

[Cire_dk]

@Alexeezay

Did you play the Scapewish list as published on page 86 or did you make changes to be better prepared for the meta?

[bruizar]

I think Grafted Exoskeleton and Argentum Armor sound pretty sweet with Godo. 10 infect counters in 1 swing sounds... lethal.

I considered both. Argentum Armor isn't good enough though, as you don't want to spend 12 mana versus 1 mana against swords to plowshares. The thing that puts me off the most is that it's just such a bad top deck. With a cheaper equip cost the card would have been insane and I would definitely run it. Grafted Exoskeleton really depends on the other creatures. For MUD, I'm strictly running SOFI and SOLAS and multiple Batterskulls. You really want to just grab a Batterskull or a sword with the right colors in that particular match-up. Have a read in the MUD thread. We've considered literally every equipment card there is.

Batterskull + Godo = 6 mana for 14 life link and 14 combat damage at most.
Godo + SOFI = 6+2 mana for10 combat damage and 2 cards + 4 direct damage + protection against Jace and Bolt (and resistance to terminus/STP)
Godo + SOLAS = 6+2 mana for 10 damage, protection against Batterskull + Swords to Plowshares + 6 life + 2* raise dead

Compare that to grafted exoskeleton. Same manacost, (6+2), turns Godo into Blightsteel Colossus, but it doesn't protect him! He does not have trample nor does he have first strike. A knight will simply kill him. It 'looks' broken, and it is when it works, but it is such a fragile combination that I don't think it is worth it. Also, would you rather topdeck an exoskeleton or a sword of X/Y considering your creature base?

The only other equipment I actually considered for MUD (not for nic fit) is Moonssilver spear. We also flirted with Grappling Hook and Sword of Vengeance in that build but the first is too cute and the latter I haven't really gotten around to testing yet.

[Viridia]

So i played with the Rector version this weekend in a small 9-man tourney going 3-2.
I played almost the same list as i did for the GP except -1 Fleshbag Marauder -1 Fierce Empath +1 Swords to Plowshares +1 Vindicate.

Overall the deck was quite good, however i did notice that it felt somewhat threat-light, often having fairly good control over the game but not finding something to properly finish the game with.
I did fall in love with my Rectors again and managed to get 2 Japanese Rectors off the trader there :)

[jhhdk]

Pardon my ignorance, I see many lists using Volrath's Stronghold, but rarely ever Genesis, can anyone explain why that might be the case? :1: seems like a small price to pay to get card into hand rather than on top library.

[KMS]

Godoblade (lol)


Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord

Spells (26)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thoughtseize
1 Reanimate
1 Damnation
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Flashfire
1 Tsunami
1 Maelstrom Pulse



To me the list seems kind of awkward as it is, I dont understand the need of 4x wish with the current SB. From your sideboard I think Damnation is ok, but why all those other wish targets?



@Bruizar

I play bonfire in Godo mud as a 2/3 off. The card is great for me there.

You arlready mentioned Godo in this thread as well at page 100 though not for nic fit.

Clearly Godo was a sleeper and has been discussed throughly, as for Nic Fit Im sre he will fit in perfectly in some builts. why not play multiple batterskulls and a singleton recurring nightmare, or even an Anger. The current list of querios has this:

=2 Maelstrom Pulse (is this just spot removal? for cmc3 and sorcery speed this doesnt seem good imo

=4 Pernicious Deed (blows up: Dryad Arbor//(tokens) Garruk, Primal Hunter/ Huntmaster of the Fells/Thragtusk
the PDeed seems really out of place in this built. Why not play enginered explosives instead? Splach 2 duals and ramp up to 5

=1 Umezawa's Jitte (Jitte is a great equipment, though why not play evasive/protective instead?)

=4-Burning Wish ()
4 Red Elemental Blast (not a wish target I assume)
4 Thoughtseize (might be needed in some occassions, I geuss its for SB combo)
1 Reanimate (what do you want to reanimate in turn 3?)
1 Damnation (I agree with this)
1 Cranial Extraction (isnt this to slow? wha do you want to extract?)
1 Haunting Echoes (for why?)
1 Flashfire (because you are running veteran explorer?)
1 Tsunami (same as Flashfire)
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[bruizar]

To me the list seems kind of awkward as it is, I dont understand the need of 4x wish with the current SB. From your sideboard I think Damnation is ok, but why all those other wish targets?
The current list of querios has this:

=2 Maelstrom Pulse (is this just spot removal? for cmc3 and sorcery speed this doesnt seem good imo

=4 Pernicious Deed (blows up: Dryad Arbor//(tokens) Garruk, Primal Hunter/ Huntmaster of the Fells/Thragtusk
the PDeed seems really out of place in this built. Why not play enginered explosives instead? Splach 2 duals and ramp up to 5

=1 Umezawa's Jitte (Jitte is a great equipment, though why not play evasive/protective instead?)

=4-Burning Wish ()
4 Red Elemental Blast (not a wish target I assume)
4 Thoughtseize (might be needed in some occassions, I geuss its for SB combo)
1 Reanimate (what do you want to reanimate in turn 3?)
1 Damnation (I agree with this)
1 Cranial Extraction (isnt this to slow? wha do you want to extract?)
1 Haunting Echoes (for why?)
1 Flashfire (because you are running veteran explorer?)
1 Tsunami (same as Flashfire)
1 Maelstrom Pulse

To be honest, I don't see a reason to run Burning Wish at all if you aren't on the Scapeshift plan. I understand Tsunami and Damnation, but I clearly don't like the rest. Tapping out for Burning Wish to tap out for Cranial Extraction to prevent Show and Tell from happening just seems too slow against decks with Ancient Tombs / Lotus Petals. They are obviously going to ramp quicker than you. Even if you do manage to pull of Burning Wish, they can see it coming from miles ahead and just cantrip into counter magic if they don't have it already. I would rather play 4*Kederekt Leviathan and just put that into play from their show and tell, instead of the plan you are on now. I think that should solve SnT.

I'm actually not sure if K. Leviathan solves it. If Leviathan is put into play through SnT, either Omniscience or Griselbrand is put into play. The trigger of Leviathan is put onto the stack and occurs after priority is taken by the SnT player (i think?). The player can then still put Griselbrands activation on the stack, but the griselbrand will go back to his hand so that doesn't matter. The question is, what if Omniscience is put into play? Will the player still be able to put an Emrakul on the stack for free before the Omniscience is bounced? Maybe someone with more rules knowledge can help?

[HoneyT]

Last time I checked, Emrakul didn't have Flash, so no, he couldn't respond to a trigger by casting Emmy. Unless they boarded in some sick tech with Leyline of Anticipation!

[Kich867]

To be honest, I don't see a reason to run Burning Wish at all if you aren't on the Scapeshift plan. I understand Tsunami and Damnation, but I clearly don't like the rest. Tapping out for Burning Wish to tap out for Cranial Extraction to prevent Show and Tell from happening just seems too slow against decks with Ancient Tombs / Lotus Petals. They are obviously going to ramp quicker than you. Even if you do manage to pull of Burning Wish, they can see it coming from miles ahead and just cantrip into counter magic if they don't have it already. I would rather play 4*Kederekt Leviathan and just put that into play from their show and tell, instead of the plan you are on now. I think that should solve SnT.

I'm actually not sure if K. Leviathan solves it. If Leviathan is put into play through SnT, either Omniscience or Griselbrand is put into play. The trigger of Leviathan is put onto the stack and occurs after priority is taken by the SnT player (i think?). The player can then still put Griselbrands activation on the stack, but the griselbrand will go back to his hand so that doesn't matter. The question is, what if Omniscience is put into play? Will the player still be able to put an Emrakul on the stack for free before the Omniscience is bounced? Maybe someone with more rules knowledge can help?

Emrakul is a creature, creatures are played at sorcery speed. You cannot respond to something on the stack with a sorcery. Being free doesn't make it not cast at sorcery speed, so Omniscience would be bounced to their hand.

On the other hand, Kederekt Leviathan actually sounds kind of amazing..? Drop it in, bounce their board, play Recurring Nightmare, swing, you tempo-lock them out of the game. It deals with planeswalkers, it deals with creatures, it deals with enchantments, it's very Nic-Fittey in the sense that it's massive board removal.

[bruizar]

Well, that should solve the problem then. The only thing they can possibly do is show and tell griselbrand, pay a bunch of life to draw into a new show and tell and try it again, at which point you might be able to race.

[KMS]

*Kederekt Leviathan

That card is insane Bruizar. It does solve all problems you might be facing, where Pdeed might fail.
Further more it can 'recure' itself.

In some cases I see where you want to Unearth Kederekt, bounce the board and then flashback a therapy to sniper the nemesis out of the opponents hand.

[Kich867]

That card is insane Bruizar. It does solve all problems you might be facing, where Pdeed might fail.
Further more it can 'recure' itself.

In some cases I see where you want to Unearth Kederekt, bounce the board and then flashback a therapy to sniper the nemesis out of the opponents hand.

I browsed through all 6+ drop blue creatures that might fit in Nic Fit, three biggest candidates were:

Kederekt Leviathan
Keiga, the Tide Star
Damia, Sage of Stone

Leviathan feels like the most relevant. In a Gifts build with Recurring Nightmare's that card just seems unstoppable.

[bruizar]

Yeah, Intuition / Gifts likes the unearth.

If you have two of them in your hand, there is no way SnT can win against you, since the second one bounces the first one, and they can't counter it.

You can also do this.

Intuition for 3 Kederekt Leviathan. Keep 1 for show and tell. Wait for show and tell to resolve putting into play Kederekt from hand, then on your turn Unearth a Kederekt from your graveyard, bounce your other Leviathan and wait for the next Show and Tell :-).

[KMS]

Yes so you would play 1 mainboard and 2 sideboard versus Show and Tell
With phantasmal Image you are already running 2/3 virtual Leviathans, which makes the deck also game one already even more resilent versus Show and Tell due to a 'hardlock'

Perhaps Thragtusk though I am not really fond of that card, I haven't checked others at this moment though... it's an option.

My curent lists looks like this, though not tuned at all because for me it has been two years of actually playing:



1xDryad Arbor
4xVeteran Explorer
1xPalinchron
3xEternal Witness
1xScavening Ooze
1xPhantasmal Image
1xGigapede
1xHymn to Tourach
1xUnburial Rites
2xDiablic Intent
3xIntuition
4xGitaxian Probe
4xCabal Therapy
1xRecurring Nightmare
1xUnearth
4xGreen Sun's Zenith
1xChord of Calling
3xPernicious Deed
1xGaddock Teeg
1xKederekt Leviathan
1xLiving Wish
2xBrainstorm


SB

Loaming Shaman
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Carpet of Flowers
2xKederekt Leviathan
Sylval Safekeeper
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ethersworn Canonist

Obviously this needs quite some polish in the numbers.
And I need to add 4xMeddling Mage

Leviathan makes Animate Dead pretty sick as well
Dance of Many Has potential with the Populate mechanic though it's UU

[Qweerios]

To be clear, I made the Godoblade list off the top of my head, so it's not so great. I too think that Burning Wish doesn't belong in there, Punishing Fire seems more appropriate. It hoses aggro and Stoneblade and Planeswalkers quite convincingly. I think Deed belongs in Jund Fit as well. Huntmaster is 4 CMC, therefore he is considered out of Deed Range, and taking tokens along while wiping the board isn't crippling at all, it usually leaves you at an advantage. In fact, Garruk has great synergy with Deed, not the opposite... Dryad is mostly there for the secondary Godo equipment. I kinda like Argentum Armor right now because it turns every single Explorer/tokens/Witness into a lategame bomb. Turning your puny creatures on that draw into 7/7+ Vindicate swingers is sweet.

As for Genesis instead of Volrath, It doesn't even cost 1 more to cast because you have to tap Volrath itself to bring something back on top, therefore cumulating to 2B mana! I think that the reason I did not play Genesis instead of Volrath Tower before is because I transitioned from BG Nic Fit with Primeval Titan to Gifts Fit, and to think that I used to play Gifts Rock with Genesis too...

[HoneyT]

And maybe because the Stronghold is actually good. It doesn't have to be in your graveyard and even taps for mana in a pinch. It operates at instant speed as opposed to making you use your mana on your upkeep. You know. Stuff like that.

[jbone2016]

And maybe because the Stronghold is actually good. It doesn't have to be in your graveyard and even taps for mana in a pinch. It operates at instant speed as opposed to making you use your mana on your upkeep. You know. Stuff like that.

The ability to sac something (like Kokopuffs or even like thragtuk) via tower in response to a plow or terminus then using stronghold to put it back. Livin' the dream....

Or what happened in my case Sunday playing against Dredge. He has an Elesh Norn and nothing else...I have a finks in my yard with a stronghold out. That was just awesome.

[KMS]

@KMS -- Have you tried Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard? If you're having trouble with Thresh, that's the ticket.


Now I have and: Problem solved!

My built needs tweaking and I need allot of playtesting and finetuning again, so many misplays and the deck is not optimal yet.
Especially the mana base.

Probably need a 4th intuition, and perhaps even a singleton carefull study as it fixes a little draw and its a great discard outlet.

I have added Animate Dead, so that cards lets me either: (recurring) Clear board 2CMC / get Palinhron to ramp mana / post sb, get iona/elesh norn

What kills me are my misplays and unsufficient meta knowlage, so that is two times me, Im sure anyone else would play much better at this moment

[Qweerios]

You can also save your creatures from death via Tower when you have Genesis in your GY. The instant speed on Volrath serves very few purposes;

-the first being EoT recursion to have 2-3 additional mana on your main phase;
-the second being proction from GY hate.

Ironicaly enough, it doesn't help much against most forms of GY hate. Ooze can exile or re-exile in response to a Volrath activation. Crypts and the likes can exile ur entire GY in response to an activation as well, and Extraction is mostly used on the Volrath target.

When compared to Genesis, it is a matter of:

-What Gift pile is better, the one involving Genesis or the one involving Volrath;
-Would you rather keep drawing cards while activating the recursion (Genesis) or forfeit your draw step in favor of recursion that is harder to disrupt

I think Genesis is better when you want to use the engine as a mean of producing card advantage while Volrath is better when sealing a match mostly depends on the success of the recursion.

[jbone2016]

The List:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
(1x Gaddock Teeg)
(1x Kitchen Finks)
(1x Scavenging Ooze)
(1x Thrun, the Last Troll)

17

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
(1x Eladamri's Call)
(1x Diabolic Intent)

21

2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
(1x Volrath's Stronghold)
(2x Marsh Flats)

22

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Extirpate
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility
1x Curse of Death's Hold
(2x Leyline of the Void)
(2x Leyline of Sanctity)
(1x Vampire Hexmage)
(1x engineered Plague)
(1x Pernicious Deed)

() is stuff not from the primal list

SCGMinn
Round 1: Jessie (RUG Delver)
Game 1: I end up getting down to 4 before a sun titan/deed lock comes down.
In: 2 Carpet Out: Teeg, Fetters
Game 2: Delver beats comes in the form of 1/1 for a while, he sided in a surgical (probably saw a rector, first game) and surgicals my only finks. I get arena out which didn't killed before I win baneslayer and an ooze.
1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Shiny (Rug Delver) Shiny, is a local guy, who I have met before, nice guy.
Game 1: Tusk happens and deed wins.
In: 3x Carpet
Game 2: I misplay horribly with my sun titan and go way too aggro with my rector.
Game 3: Goes to time after he steals my baneslayer with a gilded drake and I'm forced deed it away. Probably should have won.
1-0-1 (3-1-1)

Round 3: NOS aka Stephen Hink aka Std Winner
Feature Match! I remembered he played RUG in KC, so I was hopeful again. Not as lucky. (u/w Miracles with counterbalance)
Game 1: I get some early explorer beats in, while he sets up with skull and jace. He has a stoneforge in play while I decide what to get with my intent....I chose titan over swords. I chose wisely. He entreats for 3. I titan back the deed and win.
In: Carpet x3, Deed Out: Baneslayer?, Tusk, Finks, Ooze

Game 2: He never got anything going while I had an arena and top out. Sacing big fatties to avoid terminus is fun. Beats happen.
2-0-1 (6-1-1)

Round 4: Mark Grupa (Dredge)
Game 1: I see undiscovered paradise and pretty much know what I'm playing against.
He stalls on a dredge or 2, while I zenith for an ooze. Pretty much over then.
In: Leyline of the Void x2, Extirpate x 2
Game 2: I keep a deed, swamp, explorer, void, + stuff. I kept on the strength of the void. Bad void. I got void, he goes nature's claim. I brick on lands for a couple turns while he setups with bridges. He ends wiping my board with a dread return on norn. While I have a explorer out. I play my finks and pass. Then Sun titan, bring back finks Then stronghold bring back finks. I attack with titan, bring back deed. Deed for 7. He has 4 cards left in his deck and scoops. Bad keep on my part.
3-0-1 (8-1-1)

Round 5: Matt W. (Rug Delver)
Game 1: Early delver and goyf beats get there.
In: 3 carpets, 1 deed? Out: not sure
Game 2: We durdle until I get out Baneslayer and he scoops.
Game 3: See game 1. :(
3-1-1 (9-3-1)

Round 6: Brandon (mono-blue fairy tempo?)
Game 1: I see island delver and yay inside. Sadly, it never happens. Spellstutter sprite happens, ninja of the deep happens. I don't think I ever got a deed out.
In" Carpet x3, deed Out: call, top, teeg, nightmare
Game 2: Pretty much the same.
3-2-1 (9-5-1)

Round 7: Harrison (bug turbo grow control?)
Game 1: Jace controls the game (but doesn't fate seal me). Delver and dryads beat me.
In: Carpet +3, Hexmage +1 Out: ?
Game 2: More of the same, except he fate seals more this time. Bottoms the hexmage once and puts on a frowning face after he sees it.
3-3-1 (9-7-1)

Round 8: Gio (Maverick)
Game 1: Rough beats early but deed and tusk save the day.
In: +1 deed, +2 extirpate out: Teeg, nightmare, therapy?
Game 2: I get an early ooze out, she can't find an answer quick and baneslayer mops up.
4-3-1 (11-7-1)

Round 9: Brad L (Miracle Control)
Game 1: Long first game...I go to 1 via my own arena but have enough mana to go green sun for tusk and green sun for finks same turn. Baneslayer versus batterskull and he scoops to save time.
Game 2: I die very quickly to batterskull and friends.
Game 3: Clear board but he has a batterskull in play when time is called. Board position sucks , so I just scoop.
4-4-1 (12-9-1)

Thoughts:
Carpet is awesome. 4th deed is good in the board. I'm starting to think I need to run a pridemage main (maybe instead of teeg). Call was awesome again. 2 Towers worked well. Nightmare got sided out a lot. Leylines just seemed bad. Hexmage was cute.

Changes:
Underworld dreams in SB for blue decks/grislebrand? Hexmage/dark depths/urborg plan? Probes in main deck for better therapies?

PS. Rectors are harder the hell to find on modo to test.

[CalebD]

@Durward's latest blue list: Huge fan of your work, started playing the straight GB list as an alternative to Maverick when everyone else at my local shop started playing the same list. The best part is the fact that there are so many opportunities to interact with my opponent, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drop a Deed and wipe away someone's entire board.

Question: why does a deck splashing blue have to run 4x Force of Will? Why not just splash it for awesome value guys like Baleful Strix and Coiling Oracle?

No deck "has" to do anything, but rather it's a matter of what you want it to do. Force solves a lot of problems for the deck (unfair decks) and having countermagic makes up for the deck's slow clock. Now, when you strip their hand with therapy, you can counter their topdecks.

Edit: Lost my win and in in MN to hive mind. Won game one after double forcing Hive Mind (he couldn't pay for his pact of negation) before losing a drawn out game two where I needed another turn and getting turn two'd g3 on his mull to five. I mulled a bit in three games as well, but couldn't find a cabal therapy (which would've taken g2org3). So it goes.

Overall I was happy with my play in the event, with a blind therapy rate of approx 1:1. In the board, the Thrun and maybe another card will probably come out for a pair of Thoughtseizes.

[Arianrhod]

@Caleb -- were you content with the rate of speed that your deck won at (aka with no real bombs aside from Sphinx, who isn't much of a combat-oriented bomb). It seemed like you were playing very quickly in the merfolk feature matchup...obviously this is necessary to play Nic Fit in general, but I couldn't help but think that if you had another bomb somewhere in your deck, you would have been able to take your time a little bit more. Even moving the Tusk maindeck might help.

@jbone -- Sucks that the wheels fell off after such a strong start =(

A few things --

-) Nightmare gets boarded out almost every game 2, and then brought back in for roughly 50% of game 3's. It all depends on what graveyard hate your opponent is running. I always expect people to bring in the hate vs the Rector version, so I board out various graveyard interactions. Then if I don't see hate g3, I reboard to bring back in some of the more powerful cards....of which Nightmare is definitely a member.

-) Leylines seem bad because they are. You can make an argument for a singleton Sanctity as a Rector target vs burn and combo, but there are better options vs combo, and you don't care about burn now that you have Thragtusk. Unless burn gets another good toy soon, it'll lose whatever relevance it somehow is clinging to. Likewise, Nic Fit is a natural predator of Dredge with a strong matchup that doesn't require (much) hate. Reanimator is a problem, but in my experience, Reanimator is fought better with different weapons. Note that if your local meta has a lot of Reanimator, then I'd endorse Voids....but not for a major event.

-) How was Eldarami's Call compared to Diabolic Intent?

-) Don't board out the Fetters vs RUG! I've won a lot of games because of Fetters in that matchup...locking down a Goyf or a Delver is perfectly fine, and don't forget that you can Rector it in attached to Nimble Mongoose to get around its shroud. Sometimes just sticking it on one of their duals just to gain 4 life is all it takes to win a matchup.

-) Your r5 opponent is good at life, it would seem. The really fast, hyper-aggro hands are the only hands out of RUG that we lose to. If they have like 1 land, dude, dude, filter, filter, counter, counter, we can't beat them. On any statistically average hand, we crush. But when they get those outliers...it's really hard.

-) I don't really understand how that monoblue deck is a thing, at all. It looks like a steaming pile....no FoW in your monoblue deck? Really? Pretty sure Raking Canopy is actually better than his deck.

-) I'd recommend Harmonic Sliver instead of Pridemage. Also, running one G/x naturalizer is perfectly fine in the sideboard. I don't think there's enough reason to run it maindeck at this particular meta-moment.

-) I don't see much mention of Sigarda in your report....did you just never see/go for her? She's usually a workhorse.

-) Probes are largely unnecessary, and can be stronger cards. I could see running them in a BUG build, but running them just for Probe+Therapy seems poor. They'd be better when you can at least cycle them for value later without having to worry about your life.

-) Underworld Dreams is vastly too cute, and Chains of Mephistopheles is better if you want to attack on that angle. Just remember that it also hurts your Tops and Arena. The other problem with Chains is that in order for it to do anything in the matchups where you want it, you have to see it -early-, which all but necessitates that you run Enlightened Tutors.

-) Glad you had a good time and did fairly well, though =) It's a really hard deck, so I wouldn't worry about that. Just keep working on it and success will come in time. I'd definitely focus on refining your sideboard first and foremost...it looks really rough to me, and the sideboard is actually really important for Nic Fit. We have so many more tools than other decks that it can be challenging to figure out what to run. Try to keep the hooks and needles idea in mind when building your board -- you want Hooks that knock out your opponent (Raking Canopy vs Miracles, Nether Void vs storm, Humility vs Sneak / Reanimator), and Needles that annoy them while you set up the hooks (Extirpates, annoying gsz critters, more discard, etc).

I'll try to reply more to everyone else as I get time throughout the day.

[Star|Scream]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135267&d=1346731406

Aggressive 1-drop that turns off dread return, therapies (booo), past in flames storm, and snapcaster targets.

I could see siding out therapy/explorer against u/w snapcaster decks and siding in this and carpet of flowers.

I don't know how effective this would be against us in D&T or Maverick. I imagine it would be decent, but aside from therapy and pulse, we aren't extremely vulnerable to the card.

[Arianrhod]

I was worried about it last night when I first saw it, and then I realized that it's meaningless unless it's in their opener and they're on the play. In those instances it will suck, but only in those instances. 90% of the time we'll be leading with Therapy anyway, and at the point at which we set off the first Explorer, we rarely care beyond that. It's annoying, but it's definitely not the end of the world.

In other news, I just spent $1 on a foil Starved Rusalka. It's not the GSZ sac outlet that I want, but I'm convinced that Rector needs the ability to make its GSZs into a sac outlet. Hopefully RtR brings something like Scarland Thrinax, except actually on color =.=;; Until then, I'll test the Rusalka and see how good having the additional sac outlet is. Not sure where I'm squeezing it in yet -- I am strongly considering dropping to 1 Elspeth in exchange for a Diabolic Intent. Elspeth's crazy good [in the Moat version], but I only really need one of her if I'm running an Intent, because that's a virtual 2 copies....except I also get the additional flexibility that Intent offers. That also lowers my curve slightly, which is appreciated.

[Star|Scream]

I'm wondering if Vexing Sphinx would be viable in a deck with 2 phyrexian towers and 2 diabolic intents. Also maybe 2 md bloodghast, and a loam to round it out?

The obvious bane of that card is STP and Jace bounce, but if we can find a way to abuse the discard, it's an awesome flier that brings tremendous value when it dies.

[Megadeus]

I was thinking of maybe dryad militant as a GSZ target for against RUG? It slows their threshhold and reduces the number of things that pump Goyf. Also it would probably be good against High Tide? And storm combo a bit. Turns off thresh for cabal ritual. And dredgelike you said. Turns off all of their sacrifice outlets like therapy and DR

[Star|Scream]

For straight GB or GBW I can't think of a reason not to at least try it. In a gifts/intuition build, it wouldn't be ideal, but one could work around it.

[Megadeus]

I don't know if I have said anything in here about it, but I'm not a fan of the Gofts/Intuition builds. If were playing Blue I would rather just play control. gifts and intuition tries to be a bit too cute IMO

[Arianrhod]

@Megadeus -- There has always been and will always be a section of people (I include myself in this) that have a soft spot for Gifts Rock. It's like the people who call for Monoblack Control's return every time there's a new set spoiled. Whether or not it's actually "good," it will always be attempted. While I think there are probably better things to do with the options blue offers than Gifts/Intuition, I have nothing but respect for those who are trying to tune them and get them to work. Hell, I just spent the morning sketching out a Greater Gifts list for modern to dick around with later. God only knows if it will work or not (probably not), but if it does, the return is amazing.

@everyone else -- Why are you guys thinking about trying to put the Dryad in a deck that revolves around abusing Cabal Therapy, exactly? We aren't maverick. In the matchups we would want to board it in vs (thinking storm-based combo specifically), we want every Therapy we can get our hands on. Losing the flashback half of Therapy (often the better half of the spell) is just absurd in the storm matchup. Especially when storm combo is already running Dread of Night, Pyroclasm, Massacre, Infest, and any of a half-dozen other options. It's a good card, and it plays well with GSZ, but I really don't think it's where we want to be in the matchup. Hell, disregarding Therapy, it means we also can't Witness back Extirpates or Cranial Extractions, which are often our strongest weapons!

[Star|Scream]

Storm can go off with or without this card on the battlefield. I was thinking of using this card against decks where explorer/therapy isn't ideal (i.e. snapcaster/jace decks, dredge, perhaps high tide.)




@Megadeus -- There has always been and will always be a section of people (I include myself in this) that have a soft spot for Gifts Rock. It's like the people who call for Monoblack Control's return every time there's a new set spoiled. Whether or not it's actually "good," it will always be attempted. While I think there are probably better things to do with the options blue offers than Gifts/Intuition, I have nothing but respect for those who are trying to tune them and get them to work. Hell, I just spent the morning sketching out a Greater Gifts list for modern to dick around with later. God only knows if it will work or not (probably not), but if it does, the return is amazing.

@everyone else -- Why are you guys thinking about trying to put the Dryad in a deck that revolves around abusing Cabal Therapy, exactly? We aren't maverick. In the matchups we would want to board it in vs (thinking storm-based combo specifically), we want every Therapy we can get our hands on. Losing the flashback half of Therapy (often the better half of the spell) is just absurd in the storm matchup. Especially when storm combo is already running Dread of Night, Pyroclasm, Massacre, Infest, and any of a half-dozen other options. It's a good card, and it plays well with GSZ, but I really don't think it's where we want to be in the matchup. Hell, disregarding Therapy, it means we also can't Witness back Extirpates or Cranial Extractions, which are often our strongest weapons!

[Arianrhod]

Storm can go off with or without this card on the battlefield. I was thinking of using this card against decks where explorer/therapy isn't ideal (i.e. snapcaster/jace decks, dredge, perhaps high tide.)

Even then, though, Therapy vs Dredge naming LED or Breakthrough can save game ones where they just go busted, and postboard Therapy can be important to take away their hate cards (Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim especially). It's also valuable as a ramp engine in this matchup because you need acceleration to keep up with them. As for Snap/Jace decks, Therapy is equally valuable here, as it checks for counterspells before trying to resolve a bomb. Beyond that, however, there is the problem against a Snapcaster blue control deck, the odds of the Dryad living are nonexistent. Maybe it's just personal playstyle, but I'd rather have the ability to reuse my Pulses and Cranials vs heavy control decks...even if it means their Snapcasters are live.

If you want to test with it go ahead...I just don't see it ending well, honestly =/

[Illissius]

@Megadeus -- There has always been and will always be a section of people (I include myself in this) that have a soft spot for Gifts Rock. It's like the people who call for Monoblack Control's return every time there's a new set spoiled. Whether or not it's actually "good," it will always be attempted. While I think there are probably better things to do with the options blue offers than Gifts/Intuition, I have nothing but respect for those who are trying to tune them and get them to work. Hell, I just spent the morning sketching out a Greater Gifts list for modern to dick around with later. God only knows if it will work or not (probably not), but if it does, the return is amazing.


I haven't posted anything, but my inspiration is Gifts control from Vintage. Combo-control feels like one of the strongest possible archetypes, by combo-control meaning control that combos because it can, not combo that controls because it has to. It would be so awesome to lose the clunky expensive late-game cards, instead control the game for a few turns, Gifts EOT, untap and win the game.

[slikwilly]

For the curious, this is what I ran in Minneapolis:


2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate
3 Academy Rector
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Humility
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star


Sideboard:

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Raking Canopy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Humility
1 Memoricide
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Terminus


The Terminus wasn't so hot. I wanted another sweeper and that's what I had avx.


How was Eldarami's Call compared to Diabolic Intent?
I can't compare to Intent, but I loved the Call. I'm keeping it and adding Intent. There were occasions when I was stuck on 5 mana and being able to EOT search up Sigarda or Baneslayer and then play on my turn was good.


I don't really understand how that monoblue deck is a thing, at all. It looks like a steaming pile....no FoW in your monoblue deck? Really? Pretty sure Raking Canopy is actually better than his deck.
Brandon is on a private board I'm on and kept talking about running Ninjas. I thought he was joking. Joke's on me I guess :smile:


I'd recommend Harmonic Sliver instead of Pridemage.
I agree here. You're going to have to spend the same amount of mana for a Pridemage or a Harmonic to destroy something and at least I never want to leave a Pridemage hanging out there waiting for it to be removed before I have a chance to activate it. Exalted I don't think does enough for us to warrant running the Pridemage out earlier than you need its activated ability.


In other news, I just spent $1 on a foil Starved Rusalka. It's not the GSZ sac outlet that I want, but I'm convinced that Rector needs the ability to make its GSZs into a sac outlet.
I like this idea. My logic for adding the Intent is that it's A) a sac outlet, and B) a means to get another sac outlet (hello Tower). Being able to GSZ for one also sounds good. Not sure I'd drop an Elspeth though. I was never sad to see her.

@everyone else RE: Militant Dryad. Not loving it. It might be good to keep a Mongoose off Threshold, but its anti-goyf uses only apply if you land it very early otherwise there's a good chance there's already a sorcery or instant in the bin. Pretty much sucks late, the P/T is such that you can't really swing with it early either because it dies to everything (half the reason Thalia rocks is the First Strike).

Touching on the other dryad, I'm thinking I may put Dryad Arbor back in. Looking for non-Explorer ramp, Dryad doesn't seem so bad to me at the moment. Probably going to drop an Elder for the arbor.

[Arianrhod]

For the curious, this is what I ran in Minneapolis:


2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eladamri's Call
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate
3 Academy Rector
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Humility
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star


Sideboard:

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Raking Canopy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Humility
1 Memoricide
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Terminus


The Terminus wasn't so hot. I wanted another sweeper and that's what I had avx.


I can't compare to Intent, but I loved the Call. I'm keeping it and adding Intent. There were occasions when I was stuck on 5 mana and being able to EOT search up Sigarda or Baneslayer and then play on my turn was good.

That's fair. Room is tight enough that I doubt I'll be able to add both...and I feel like Intent synergizes better overall than Call does. Call definitely seems legit, though...especially since you can do the same chain that Bruizar was talking about with Chord of Calling -- Call a Witness, Witness back Call, etc.



Brandon is on a private board I'm on and kept talking about running Ninjas. I thought he was joking. Joke's on me I guess :smile:


I agree here. You're going to have to spend the same amount of mana for a Pridemage or a Harmonic to destroy something and at least I never want to leave a Pridemage hanging out there waiting for it to be removed before I have a chance to activate it. Exalted I don't think does enough for us to warrant running the Pridemage out earlier than you need its activated ability.


I like this idea. My logic for adding the Intent is that it's A) a sac outlet, and B) a means to get another sac outlet (hello Tower). Being able to GSZ for one also sounds good. Not sure I'd drop an Elspeth though. I was never sad to see her.

The other nifty thing about Rusalka is that it's a 1-drop. This means that despite Deranged Outcast being a "better card," it's much cheaper. And since it's 1, people will assume that you're Zenithing for an Explorer. Then, suddenly, sac outlet! lol. I dunno. I like the CONCEPT of GSZ for a sac outlet. I don't like Starved Rusalka. I think that you'd have to be mad to actually LIKE Starved Rusalka. I'm really hoping that Ravnica gives us a better option here....I saw the Troll that got spoiled, and it was all like:

BG
Trample
2/2
Sac a creature, put a +1/+1 counter on it
B: Regenerate ~

And I came.

And then I looked again, and it's not sac a creature at all, it's "discard a creature card."

And I was really, really sad. Here's hoping there's something somewhere in Ravnica =.=;;

I'm never really unhappy to see Elspeth either, but at some point strong cards have to be cut in order to make the overall deck better. I'm certainly not getting rid of my second copy....I'll try it for a while in that configuration and see if I like it. Time will tell.



@everyone else RE: Militant Dryad. Not loving it. It might be good to keep a Mongoose off Threshold, but its anti-goyf uses only apply if you land it very early otherwise there's a good chance there's already a sorcery or instant in the bin. Pretty much sucks late, the P/T is such that you can't really swing with it early either because it dies to everything (half the reason Thalia rocks is the First Strike).

Touching on the other dryad, I'm thinking I may put Dryad Arbor back in. Looking for non-Explorer ramp, Dryad doesn't seem so bad to me at the moment. Probably going to drop an Elder for the arbor.

I think that's a major reason why I don't like Militant Dryad. She doesn't do anything retroactively to stuff that's already there. See: Jotun Grunt. She would probably be too powerful if she did...she's kind of like a g/w version of Leyline of the Void, almost. She doesn't do anything unless she's in your opening hand, but she can swing. But she can also die easily because she's a creature. Meh.

How were the Sakura-Tribes for you? I don't like Arbor primarily because it dies to Deed -- the other issue with it is that it encourages "wasting" a GSZ. I'd rather GSZ for an Explorer than an Arbor any day of the week, and GSZ gets substantially more powerful the longer the game goes on. If the Rusalka checks out, I'll probably try to bump up to 4x Green Sun...but even then, I don't really like the idea of Green Sunning for a land. Depends on the hand, I guess =/

EDIT: Also, does anyone know the guy that top8'd with ScapeWish? I'm hoping we get a report out him. I very much don't agree with cutting a Wood Elves, btw, if you happen to see this.

[Qweerios]

I enjoy the straight BUG control but I wouldn't play it without FoW. I find that Gifts Ungiven grants closure to any Aggro, and Control based matchup.

I will be trying out Sphinx of Uthuun tonight, I'll bring some news.

[slikwilly]

That's fair. Room is tight enough that I doubt I'll be able to add both...and I feel like Intent synergizes better overall than Call does. Call definitely seems legit, though...especially since you can do the same chain that Bruizar was talking about with Chord of Calling -- Call a Witness, Witness back Call, etc.
At one point I did get a nifty sequence of Call for Sigarda, Sigarda, E.Witness for Call, Call for Baneslayer, Baneslayer. That was fun :smile:


I'm never really unhappy to see Elspeth either, but at some point strong cards have to be cut in order to make the overall deck better. I'm certainly not getting rid of my second copy....I'll try it for a while in that configuration and see if I like it. Time will tell.
This is true. With Intent providing a virtual Elspeth maybe going to one is okay.


How were the Sakura-Tribes for you? I don't like Arbor primarily because it dies to Deed -- the other issue with it is that it encourages "wasting" a GSZ. I'd rather GSZ for an Explorer than an Arbor any day of the week, and GSZ gets substantially more powerful the longer the game goes on. If the Rusalka checks out, I'll probably try to bump up to 4x Green Sun...but even then, I don't really like the idea of Green Sunning for a land. Depends on the hand, I guess =/
The Elders were good and bad. On the plus side, you get a wider range of keepable openers because you've got more ramp in the deck. It also gets you a Recurring Nightmare target if somehow you don't already have one. (I've been in this boat before.) On the minus side, they're terrible late, they're nigh-useless beaters.

I don't really like losing the arbor to Deed, but I'm planning on it as land 23 (ie +1 land) that you can use T1 GSZ if need be. By the time you crack a deed losing the land shouldn't hurt too much. I actually talked to the guy running GBu about this after our round (in the 30 seconds we had since right after we finished the next round was posted) since I was surprised to see him w/ the Arbor given how down most of us here have been on it.

Pretty sure I'm going to make changes like this:
-1 Humility, -2 Elders, +1 Moat, +1 Arbor, +1 Intent

Hopefully my Moat and Intent show up before Thursday when the local shop runs Legacy.


EDIT: Also, does anyone know the guy that top8'd with ScapeWish? I'm hoping we get a report out him. I very much don't agree with cutting a Wood Elves, btw, if you happen to see this.
Pretty sure a friend lost to him, I know that much. (Unless there were multiple Scapewish decks there.) I'll ask for any comments on the match.

Seemed to be a few Nic Fit variants around:
Myself and jbone on Rector.
Caleb + my round four opponent on GBu (never saw an Agent from my opponent)
36th place on a pod/rector build (interesting looking list)
7th place ScapeWish

[Megadeus]

I guess I may be the only person running non scapeshift Jund in here, but Rakdos' Return? Seems solid vs. control and maybe combo?

[HoneyT]

I guess I may be the only person running non scapeshift Jund in here, but Rakdos' Return? Seems solid vs. control and maybe combo?

We don't play Mind Shatter as is, and I don't forsee the burn half being super relevant to us.

Also @everyone with a hard on for the new Militant

I'm on board with Arianrhod and silkwilly that it's not really that good for exactly the reasons they listed.

[Star|Scream]

We don't play Mind Shatter as is, and I don't forsee the burn half being super relevant to us.

Also @everyone with a hard on for the new Militant

I'm on board with Arianrhod and silkwilly that it's not really that good for exactly the reasons they listed.

The card was just spoiled, so excuse us for discussing a card that is in the deck's color that specifically hoses archetypes that historically give the deck trouble. If the card is bad, at least we got to discuss why.

[jbone2016]

@jbone -- Sucks that the wheels fell off after such a strong start =(

A few things --

-) Nightmare gets boarded out almost every game 2, and then brought back in for roughly 50% of game 3's. It all depends on what graveyard hate your opponent is running. I always expect people to bring in the hate vs the Rector version, so I board out various graveyard interactions. Then if I don't see hate g3, I reboard to bring back in some of the more powerful cards....of which Nightmare is definitely a member.

-) Leylines seem bad because they are. You can make an argument for a singleton Sanctity as a Rector target vs burn and combo, but there are better options vs combo, and you don't care about burn now that you have Thragtusk. Unless burn gets another good toy soon, it'll lose whatever relevance it somehow is clinging to. Likewise, Nic Fit is a natural predator of Dredge with a strong matchup that doesn't require (much) hate. Reanimator is a problem, but in my experience, Reanimator is fought better with different weapons. Note that if your local meta has a lot of Reanimator, then I'd endorse Voids....but not for a major event.


I was expecting to face some sort of loam or lands deck but the 2 extraction should be good for that. I think I miser sanctity is good for burn, and some random matchup (like pox or something with Lily, maybe even jace?)




-) How was Eldarami's Call compared to Diabolic Intent?



They both seem to have their uses.




-) Don't board out the Fetters vs RUG! I've won a lot of games because of Fetters in that matchup...locking down a Goyf or a Delver is perfectly fine, and don't forget that you can Rector it in attached to Nimble Mongoose to get around its shroud. Sometimes just sticking it on one of their duals just to gain 4 life is all it takes to win a matchup.



Teeg seems like it would have been better to sideout (or just keep in the board)





-) Your r5 opponent is good at life, it would seem. The really fast, hyper-aggro hands are the only hands out of RUG that we lose to. If they have like 1 land, dude, dude, filter, filter, counter, counter, we can't beat them. On any statistically average hand, we crush. But when they get those outliers...it's really hard.

-) I don't really understand how that monoblue deck is a thing, at all. It looks like a steaming pile....no FoW in your monoblue deck? Really? Pretty sure Raking Canopy is actually better than his deck.


The mono blue deck was based on pauper faeries? He had echoing truths main deck so that could have possibly hurt the canopy. He bounced fetters to free an attacker to win. Kinda of sucked.




-) I'd recommend Harmonic Sliver instead of Pridemage. Also, running one G/x naturalizer is perfectly fine in the sideboard. I don't think there's enough reason to run it maindeck at this particular meta-moment.

-) I don't see much mention of Sigarda in your report....did you just never see/go for her? She's usually a workhorse.


Sigarda was boss as usual.




-) Probes are largely unnecessary, and can be stronger cards. I could see running them in a BUG build, but running them just for Probe+Therapy seems poor. They'd be better when you can at least cycle them for value later without having to worry about your life.



One of thoughtsieze or IOK worth it?




-) Underworld Dreams is vastly too cute, and Chains of Mephistopheles is better if you want to attack on that angle. Just remember that it also hurts your Tops and Arena. The other problem with Chains is that in order for it to do anything in the matchups where you want it, you have to see it -early-, which all but necessitates that you run Enlightened Tutors.



I'm still torn on E. Tutor. Of course, it seems more useful vs. the unfair decks.




-) Glad you had a good time and did fairly well, though =) It's a really hard deck, so I wouldn't worry about that. Just keep working on it and success will come in time. I'd definitely focus on refining your sideboard first and foremost...it looks really rough to me, and the sideboard is actually really important for Nic Fit. We have so many more tools than other decks that it can be challenging to figure out what to run. Try to keep the hooks and needles idea in mind when building your board -- you want Hooks that knock out your opponent (Raking Canopy vs Miracles, Nether Void vs storm, Humility vs Sneak / Reanimator), and Needles that annoy them while you set up the hooks (Extirpates, annoying gsz critters, more discard, etc).


I have another legacy tournament at my big local legacy store this Saturday. I'll see what a different sideboard does.

[Kich867]

I guess I may be the only person running non scapeshift Jund in here, but Rakdos' Return? Seems solid vs. control and maybe combo?

I don't see a point to it to be perfectly honest.

What does it do that Blightning doesn't do? On that note, why don't Jund Fit decks play Blightning? That card shits out value, I don't care if they get to choose the cards, you're 2 for 1'ing them AND bolting them. You're playing Mind Rot and Lightning Bolt in one card for less mana than both of them. What the fuck.

Every time I tell myself it's bad I keep finding a reason to try and play Jund fit again.

Blightning, Godo, that new sorcery terminate that kills planeswalkers? Suck it Jace. Let's not deal with your bullshit today.

[HoneyT]

The card was just spoiled, so excuse us for discussing a card that is in the deck's color that specifically hoses archetypes that historically give the deck trouble. If the card is bad, at least we got to discuss why.

Then let's discuss why it's bad. An aggressive 1 drop is NOT what this deck is looking for. It gets blown to shit by our best card. It hoses the most relevant part of our engine (Therapy). The only deck that gives us real fits that this card is remotely good against is Stoneblade/Miracles. Dredge is no problem, nor is Delver. High Tide and Storm are winnable without it and can win with it in play anyway. The card is perfectly playable in a deck like Maverick. This one, not so much.

[Megadeus]

Rakdos return just as an endgame fireball to the dome and to empty a control players hands while also killing a walker. Better than blighting for the fact that you can scale it. I'm not saying it's a definite but it certainly seems powerful. T2 with a tower and explorer you hit them for 3 cards. I may try it as a 1 of.

[Kich867]

Rakdos return just as an endgame fireball to the dome and to empty a control players hands while also killing a walker. Better than blighting for the fact that you can scale it. I'm not saying it's a definite but it certainly seems powerful. T2 with a tower and explorer you hit them for 3 cards. I may try it as a 1 of.

I could see some sort of Blightning / Rakdos' Return split.

Has this sort of Jund-Fit ever been tried? I never thought about leaning towards really huge spell bombs. Blightning is -huge- value, Rakdos' Return is -huge- value when X=3 or more, even that new Dreadbore is pretty sweet. You still get deed and whatnot. Between Huntsmaster and Batterskull you'll have a good amount of lifegain.

[Qweerios]

Unfortunately for Jund: Pulse > Dreadbore, Hymn > Blightning, and Godo, well, Godo is sex :wink:.

Tonight's tournament:

2-1 vs. Sea Stompy, a single missplay in G2 got me a game loss;
1-2 vs. Esper Foundry/Walkers, a single missplay in G2 cost me the game again and I lost G3 to Painter/Stone in 3 turns;
2-0 vs. Pox, epic G2, survived a Lily ultimate on 7 lands;
2-0 vs. Maverick, an easy ride

I took 3rd or 4th, playing the following:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Grave Titan
1 Sphinx of Uthuun

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage


Sphinx came out twice and really brought the pain. He basicaly acts as a Grave Titan but offers a flying body and 2-3 cards instead of 2 tokens.

Genesis never happened, except against Maverick, which I was pretty much stomping already.

[Megadeus]

The reason that I was thinking about Return, was just because late game it can empty a control or combo players hand. Kind of like how skeletal scrying refills our hand late game. I'm not saying it is good. I'm just discussing it. I think it is better than blightning due to it being able to scale, and like qwerrios said, If you were going to play blighting, hymn is just better. It may just be a standard only star, but I am willing to give it a try as a one of.

[Megadeus]

New walker... Playable in here? I think it is a possibility. 5 mana maelstrom pulse if nothing else.

[Philipp2293]

I like the high loyality and the fact that has really good synergy with deed. At least testworthy.

[Kich867]

I -really- like her. She's a board wipe, an answer to almost any single problem, or an I-Win button.

To me she screams wanting to be in the straight up GB Fit or BUG Fit alongside Jace. They protect each other and unlike Liliana they can both win the game. The downside is that her +1 doesn't actually do anything directly, except that it does because it forces action. If you aren't hitting her you're going to lose, if you are hitting her you're losing creatures so it better be an alpha strike.

[slikwilly]

Looks fun with wolf run too.

[ryn ball_2]

seem's like jund/punishing nic fit is getting a new fresh card

http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/Slaughter-Games.jpg

[bruizar]

Vraska def seems good at first sight. High loyalty combined with the plus 1 ability is very nasty.

The ultimate synergizes with pernicious deed which is in the same colors. Deed synergies with the fact that it's a planeswalker too.

Vraska wins the pw battle with her -3.

Sometimes the ultimate won't get there though, and the pw can be ignored (she will have to -3 to destroy) the problem here is that there is no value to attacking vraska, because if you are on the aggro plan, all you have to do is keep more creatures than there are assassins or just kill them.

The -3 is the best part of the card but deed does that quicker and more efficiently although not on pw's

Even though she looks strong, this card is absolutely screwed with 1 lightning bolt. I'm passing the one up but I like the design. It will probably pre-sale for 40 usd.

Those that were running pulse are better off running vraska I think.

[jbone2016]

Slaughter Games....uncounterable cranial extraction, hell yes.

[Qweerios]

Maelstrom Pulse has just been Upgraded... Vraska will be my new toy. That +1 and -3 are wicked... She screams CA, has awesome synergy with Deed because she eats planeswalkers (that's right, she eats them!). She can also end games quite easely when she needs to. I will definitely pack 1-2 copies at all times.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I too wanted to cut Maelstrom Pulse for Vraska, but the problem is keeping the mana-curve reasonable. I tend to lose the games where my opening hand consists of a couple of lands and a titan, a Garruk (Primal Hunter), a perniscious deed and a thragtusk. The maelstrom pulses are really good, also they are one of my few outs (along with perniscious deed) against Belcher and Storm making 12 goblins on turn 1. I cut my Wickerbough Elder for 1 copy of Vraska the Unseen. My B/G 'Fit now looks like this, or at least it will as soon as I get a copy of Vraska:

Lands (22)

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

Creatures (11)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (24)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Innocent Blood
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade

Walkers (4)

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Sideboard

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Deathmark
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kitchen Finks

[Kich867]

I too wanted to cut Maelstrom Pulse for Vraska, but the problem is keeping the mana-curve reasonable. I tend to lose the games where my opening hand consists of a couple of lands and a titan, a Garruk (Primal Hunter), a perniscious deed and a thragtusk. The maelstrom pulses are really good, also they are one of my few outs (along with perniscious deed) against Belcher and Storm making 12 goblins on turn 1. I cut my Wickerbough Elder for 1 copy of Vraska the Unseen. My B/G 'Fit now looks like this, or at least it will as soon as I get a copy of Vraska:


You snap-mulligan those hands because they have no action and do nothing O.o.

It's interesting that card was printed, because the last version (which I believe was from ravnica) was also quite good: Thought Hemorrhage. It goes in line with the Jund Fit theme of aggressively attacking hand and how the deck functions.

Slaughter Games seems like a solid addition. People often criticize these cards because they don't directly affect the game state, but they're quite powerful. Turning Stoneblade off of Jace or Maverick off of Knight etc is pretty brutal.

[bruizar]

Vraska is a trap, I just posted my rationale in the spoiler thread. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24554-Return-to-Ravnica-Spoilers/page15



On the topic of Vraska, this card is really not worth the troubles. It's a big trap so trade them away to the standard folks that can use him.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135302&stc=1&d=1346817949

Let's analyze.

When the +1 is active, you will never attack him. Why? He is ramping to his ultimate. This means he is trying to get 3 creatures, that you have to remove. Just let him ramp and block it with the creature that would have otherwise died to Vraska.

Also, when are you going to attack into Vraska with his +1 active? with a 2/2? Nah, that's not a good idea.

3/3? Well, I rather just pressure my opponent's life total so Vraska has to spend 3 loyalty to kill my 3/3.

4/4? Well, if the +1 is active, I'm just running par on loyalty (4 damage versus the +1 and -3)

5/5? Well yeah, now we're talking. But do we rather have 5 damage to the dome AND force him to spend his -3 loyalty? Or do you want to just suicide your 5/5 clock against this 5 mana planeswalker.

The problem is that it costs 7 freaking loyalty to ult. A single lightning bolt puts Vraska out of contention because the loyalty drops so hard and you spend so long doing absolutely nothing to ramp it. This isn't Gideon that can force an opponent to attack into Gideon.

This card has really cool abilities but can too easily be ignored. 3 non-evasive, non-hexproof creatures on turn infinite really don't make this card good enough.

The pros? It's in the same colors as Pernicious Deed and some good synergy there. It can deal with Planeswalkers (But hey, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and Dreadbore can too! Doesn't mean you should run it), and it protects itself like a king (or queen)!

What's not to like? Well, there is hardly any board impact except for a slow, 1 time vindicate.

I actually think Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate are better, especially when considering the fact that some players play Burning Wish and can get access to it when they need it (although not sure if anyone plays burning wish and pulse/vindicate in conjunction, it is the same amount of mana, but gives you a more streamlined deck than Vraska can give you). Feel free to test Vraska, but I would advise against obtaining Vraska's immediately, because she will likely be very expensive due to the other formats.

[Vicar in a tutu]

You snap-mulligan those hands because they have no action and do nothing O.o.
Obviously! I'm just pointing out that it can be a weakness with this deck (at least the G/B I'm running).

[Arianrhod]

I am both in love with Slaughter Games and furious because I have a German foil Cranial that's sitting in Scapewish currently that was actually impossible to find. Dammit.

But yeah. I think that when I play Scapewish, if I'm worried about there being a lot of combo in the room, I'll run 3 Slaughter Games in the board. 1 for Wish, 2 to board in. Cranial effects are IMO the single best thing this deck (any flavor) can do to combo decks, especially shit like OmniTell or Sneak. They're really strong decks....until you take away Omniscience or Emrakul. Suddenly, they become steaming piles of junk that can't win anymore. Having an uncounterable Cranial is amazing for all jund-colored varieties.

Vraska.....I really want to like Vraska. I'm not sure that I do, though. The problem with replacing Pulse with her is that 1. Pulse sometimes is absurd value (killing 2x Goyf, 2x Delver, 12x Goblin token, etc); and 2. CMC problems. I think that Kich is exactly right: she'll be best in B/G, and in BUG [control variants]. Outside of those two color versions, though, I don't see her. Rector is already top-heavy enough without needing to add a 5-cmc planeswalker, and Jund just has better things to do, like actually winning the game on the spot, or piling on the Tusk/Zenithing Hunts, etc.

In control BUG Fit, though, she's a potent weapon for sure. The only issue that I have with her in straight BG is that I'm not sure that she's better than Garruk PH for the deck. BG tends to have an assload of control and not many win conditions...Garruk is a much beefier wincon than Vraska is, although Vraska is arguably more lethal once she goes off (assuming you've set up the board state correctly).

Now, all that being said, I am also agreeing with Bruizar that she has elements of being a trap. I really, really wish she had some kind of proactive ability. She protects herself probably better than any 'walker in existence, but that's all she does. She protects, protects, and protects some more until the game is locked, then she goes off and wins. This is why I think she's better in control BUG Fit. She fits the philosophy of the deck perfectly, and compliments the heck out of Jace. Curving Jace into Vraska is going to be game most of the time. Winning the PW fight is a big deal, and she's also solid vs Show and Tell, although obv. you can't put her in with it (which would be amazing). I dunno. She's hard to evaluate. She's very much unlike any planeswalker we've had before.

Bare minimum I agree with Bruizar that we need to be cautious with her. She's not a card that we pay outrageous preorder prices for (Slaughter Games). I certainly think she's testable, and I think that she will have a home in the control-oriented BUG lists, but I don't think she's actually that good beyond there. She doesn't impact the board state enough for the other lists. Shame, cause she's a total badass. Such good art.

Oh, one more thing: I don't buy into the Lightning Bolt argument. Yeah, burn's good vs her. But if they're burning her, they aren't burning you. And the only decks that play Lightning Bolt are the aggressive decks (burn, RUG, U/R delver) that want your throat, not your planeswalker. If she's healing salving for you against one of those decks, you're perfectly fine with that. Also, one Lightning Bolt isn't going to kill her most of the time, unless you've needed to kill something. But even then, if you're trading her for a nonland permanent that was worth -3ing right away and a Lightning Bolt, you're probably fine with that. Let's say RUG, and she blew up a 5/6 goyf. That's 8 points of damage that she's saved you, which is a big deal. I agree with all of your thought process except that bit. Bolt isn't a concern....or a major one at the least.

[HoneyT]

Re: Vraska

Like Vicar in a tutu said, you can't simply replace Pulses with this chick. Curve considerations have to be taken into account.

On the other hand I do disagree with bruizar. I think she's definitely good enough for the deck. Her +1 could read "Stand up and do a jig" and she would be good enough. It doesn't have to do anything but increase her loyalty. Your argument about Bolt is largely irrelevant because most decks don't play that card. So if they don't attack her and lose their dudes, you've gotten two Pulses out of her at the minimum. Which is a good deal for her mana cost. If you're on the ultimate plan, we have plenty of time to wipe the board and strip their hand of answers by the time we're ready to fire that off.

Now to be fair, I do agree that she's not worth stupid pre order prices, so do be careful there. But she is a perfectly reasonable card to run in GB and BUG versions at least.

BTW, the new Extraction card will be sweet in Jund versions!

Edit: Looks like Arianrhod beat me to the punch on this one!

[Arianrhod]

A few more thoughts on Vraska have occurred since I last posted.

I think that she's a trap if we think of her as a trap. Aside: Inception theme just came on on Pandora. BWAH

But seriously. I was reading some commentary in the discussion thread on Salvation. They're all like, "But you can just ignore her!" Which is basically Bruizar's point.

And yeah, you CAN ignore her. But I think that we're evaluating her incorrectly. She WANTS you to ignore her. Think about it.

You drop Vraska on an open field post-Deed, let's say. Your RUG opponent has yet to recover, you're at a suitably high amount of life, let's say 12 or so. You throw up her shield and pass turn. Your erstwhile creature-faring opponent has a decision to make. He rips Tarmogoyf. Do you play Tarmogoyf? Vraska will just kill it. Do you not play Tarmogoyf and sit there letting her tick up until you draw another creature? But you're playing RUG and you have like 9 creatures left in your entire deck.

Vraska puts the opponent in a really awkward spot. Vraska is literally ALWAYS going to be at least a 2-for-1. At least. She'll win the game eventually....in her own time. Think of Vraska more as a Stax card, almost, and then she'll make more sense.

I stand by my previous assessment that she'll only find a home in control-oriented BUG Fit, but good lord will she be amazing in that one version. She's just strange, because she doesn't need to impact the board to be impacting the board. I think you kind of have to stand on your head for a while to actually wrap your head around her.

[Justin]

I'm not sure that this will happen to often, but Vraska can kill Emrakul, whereas Pulse, Vindicate, StP, etc. cannot.

I am not sure about the card, but I am eager to test her. I think she might help this deck as a one-of, that you board out against decks that play bolt spells. She's also easily dealt with in the mirror.

The advantage of Vraska is that she will very often (although not always) get you a two-for-one. You could drop her and use the Pulse ability to nuke a permanent. Then two turns later, you can kill a second permanent if your opponent has not dealt with her.

I think it's wrong to be comparing Vraska with Pulse, as you are comparing 5cc and 3cc spells. Vraska is competing for a spot(s) against other spells at the same casting cost (or at least in the 4cc to 6cc range). When in doubt, I would run a green creature over a non-green creature or Planeswalker, because of GSZ as a tutor. Is Vraska better in this deck than Garruk, Primal Hunter, for example?

[Megadeus]

I agree. She is more of a pure control card. We are more of a Rock control deck where Liliana is just much better. BUG can definitely use her. I see what you are saying about her, but the fact that her +1 kind of does nothing sometimes they can just ignore her then win the game by attacking right past her.

[Megadeus]

I'm not sure that this will happen to often, but Vraska can kill Emrakul, whereas Pulse, Vindicate, StP, etc. cannot.

I am not sure about the card, but I am eager to test her. I think she might help this deck as a one-of, that you board out against decks that play bolt spells. She's also easily dealt with in the mirror.

The advantage of Vraska is that she will very often (although not always) get you a two-for-one. You could drop her and use the Pulse ability to nuke a permanent. Then two turns later, you can kill a second permanent if your opponent has not dealt with her.

I think it's wrong to be comparing Vraska with Pulse, as you are comparing 5cc and 3cc spells. Vraska is competing for a spot(s) against other spells at the same casting cost (or at least in the 4cc to 6cc range). When in doubt, I would run a green creature over a non-green creature or Planeswalker, because of GSZ as a tutor. Is Vraska better in this deck than Garruk, Primal Hunter, for example?
I think no. Not in the Normal builds of Nic-Fit.

[exw]

Guess I shouldn't lurk anymore.

Last Sunday, 9/2/12, I was able to make the top 8 of SCG Minneapolis while playing the Scapeshift Nic Fit. I didn't take great notes but hopefully what I do have for you will help develop this deck to be even better.

First, a little about me, I played MTG from about 1995-2000 before starting back up again after Mirrodin Besieged. I didn't liquidate my collection so I was able to get into legacy pretty easily. I am mainly a limited player, but with SCG Minneapolis being so close to home I couldn't resist getting a legacy deck together.

I used Arianrhod's list which he top 4'd a Jupiter games event with a couple small changes. The first change, which I cannot defend, was cutting a Huntsmaster of the Fells for a Wickerbough elder. Wickerbough elder was fairly bad for me all day and at the end of the day, I couldn't even remember what my thought process was for making this change. I also cut one Wood Elves from the maindeck. This also could be wrong, Wood Elves were pretty good for me. The relevant sideboard changes I made were the inclusion of 3x Carpet of Flowers, and 1x Chainer's Edict. Chainer's Edict was my favorite wish target all day.

The list I played can be located at : http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49116

There were 237 people signed up for 9 rounds of play.

Round one : Alex (Zoo)
Game one: On the draw, I keep a slow hand against a Steppe lynx, Wild Natacl draw. I cast a eternal witness for no value and die quickly. Off to a fantastic start it seems.

Game Two: He floods the board with several two drops, which I casually deed away. I finish this one with a scapeshit for 30.
Game three: He mulls to five and I keep a hand with 2 deed, eternal witness. Looking at my life totals, it appears I beat down for the win.
1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round Two: Shawn (Esper control; Counterbalance)
Game one: On the play, I get a fast start with veteran explorer, but this gets him the lands to cast Jace on turn 3. He resolves a Counterbalance and seemingly knows my decklist exactly because he stops my next 4-5 spells with just Jace's brainstorms controlling the top of his deck.

Game Two: I don't have much of a memory of this game. I got him to two life before he end of turn Entreats me for 3.
1-1 (2-3 in games)

Round Three: Joseph (UW Puresteel / Thoper Sword?)
Game one: On the draw, deed takes care of most of his stuff, including a germ with a batterskull attached to it. I scapeshift him out from 18 life.

Game Two: I cabal therapy his mull to 6 apart leaving him with a bunch of tundras and islands in his hand. He doesn't play any of these to try and stop Carpet of flowers, which seemed odd. Eventually, I deed some equipment away and get there with a Huntsmaster and Thragtusk.
2-1 (4-3 in games)

Round Four: Robb (RUG delver)
Game one: I roll snake eyes and start the game with a Veteran explorer. This stops his Nimble moongooses for long enough for me to deed away several creatures and get there with a Huntsmaster.

Game two: He forces my turn one top and shreds me with a flipped delver army.
Game three: On a clock, I Burning wish for Scapeshift which gets forced. Facing lethal, I rip a Scapeshift from the top to win the match.
3-1 (6-4 in games)

Round Five: Shane (RUG delver)
Game one: On the draw, he beats me for a while with a flipped delver. I deed the board and win a close one with Huntsmaster. He counters an attempt to Scapeshift during this game.

Game two: He takes a very long pondering his keep. (Which was 3 land, 2 force, 2 Lightning Bolt). I cabal therapy turn one and miss on Brainstorm. He later forces my Veteran Explorer pitching a Spell Pierce. I Eternal Witness the Veteran Explorer back and nab three lightning bolts with the flashback cabal therapy. Eternal witness goes the distance in the next 8 or 9 turns.
4-1 (8-4 in games)

Round Six: Barrett (RUG delver)
Game One: On the draw, I resolve two Huntsmasters and he concedes early without seeing Veteran Explorer, Scapeshift of Deed.

Game Two: Carpet of Flowers does serious work allowing me to cast Thragtusk early. My opponent takes 8 from Sylvan Library just to dig for answers. Finding nothing, he scoops when I resolve a deed despite his board being clear already.

After the game I notice he had side-boarded out his Stifles. Lucky!
5-1 (10-4 in games)

Round Seven: Matt W. (RUG delver)
This guy happens to be my brother and sole test partner. He was mentioned earlier in the thread as Jbone2016's round five opponent. His lifetime record against me in limited matches is something ludicrous like 30-3.
Game One: I resolve a fast Huntsmaster and Deed him several times. Not sure how this one ended.

Game Two: I resolve several Thragtusks and his submerges look very sad in his hand. He ends up in 31st place.
6-1 (12-4 in games)

Round Eight: Matt H. (Esper Control)
Game one: On the play, I Veteran explorer turn one, and cabal therapy (and flashback) him turn two. He allows the veteran explorer trigger to resolve, and the Spell Pierce in his hand becomes dead as I take his Jace with two untapped lands in play. He V. Cliques me for a while but I cast a few Thragtusks to take my life total out of reach.

With my opponent at four with one card in hand, I attack with Thragtusk. His last card is Swords to Plowshares. With my opponent out of cards, I cast Scapeshift for the win.

Game Two: Thoughtseize + Extirpate takes my green sun's zenith. Thragtusk and Primeval Titan do some work. I play terribly with my titan's triggers leaving mountains in my deck with a Valakut already in play. It ends up not mattering.

Both Esper decks I played were playing Dust Bowl, which seemed extremely bad against Nic Fit.
7-1 (14-4 in games)

Round 9: Jeremy (Hive Mind)
My opponent offers the draw as soon as I show up. I know him to be playing Hive Mind and I accept his offer as soon as the slip arrives! At this point, I'm not confident I will even make the top 8 and I get a few high fives from my LGS people as my name is announced in 7th place.
7-1-1 (14-4 in games)

Quarterfinals: Kenny (White Goblins (Thalia))
This match is covered here: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/quarterfinals_kenny_dungar_vs_.html

Kenny is a fellow UWEC alumni and a stand up guy. He pretty much ran me over. At one point in game one I get an 8-9 for one with a Deed, but his hand is still stacked from Ringleaders that it hardly matters. Looking back at this match I see so many play errors. I was woefully under prepared to face goblins.

At the end of the day, I was pretty lucky with the match-ups all day. The only changes I would have liked to make would be to cut the Wickerbough Elder for another high end threat or some other sort of utility Green Sun target. I also would have killed to have a Firespout in my board as well.

In closing,

Thanks to everyone in this thread for developing such a fun deck to play. It is seriously a blast to play badlands, taigas and bayous in a world full of blue duals.

[Arianrhod]

*Like.*

Now, a few questions:

How often did you flashback the Edict? Did it ever matter that Edict cost 2 as opposed to I.Blood's 1? (Assume that you didn't have I.Blood in your board for this question. Thinking of replacing). How often did you use I.Blood to sac your own Explorer?

How were the Maelstrom Pulses? I'm strongly considering replacing them with Bonfires, which would improve the tribal matchup a bit, while still maintaining the ability to kill planeswalkers (redirect the damage to the walker). The deck would suffer a little in the artifact and enchantment killing department, as it would be wholly reliant on Deed and/or BW->Pulse. Might consider putting in a Gleeful Sabotage if I make that change.

How would the Arenas have been for you, if you had them in your board as opposed to the Carpets? Seems from your report that Carpets were better overall, but some of that might be matchup-speciifc.

How often did you have to mull because of color screw in your opener, and how was the Volrath's Stronghold? Would it have been better as a 2nd Stomping Ground, you think?

Above all else: grats on the finish! Hopefully we'll see you posting a bit more now =)

-----

Also, just tossing out there on behalf of a friend: my friend has a couple of Korean Wood Elves, if anyone is building ScapeWish and pimping it out. I'm aiming for German on my list, so I don't want them. I can't imagine they're easy to find, though, so if anyone swings that way, just shoot me a PM. Shame to see them go to waste.

[Megadeus]

That is a lot of RUG! It makes me happy that I am playing a deck that beats the best deck... Congratulations on the top 8 though!

Speaking of SCG events... I play Punishing fire Nic Fit, but my meta is really full of fair decks. There is one SnT player that I have seen lately at the store so I never get to play that match up. What are some good SB cards for them? Is Cranial or Thought Hemmorage really that good? Right now my SB plan is probably bring in 3 red blasts and 2 duress (would be Thoughtseizes if not for budget reasons) and maybe carpet of flowers? Is that even that good against them? I do run 2 innocent blood main, and might switch back my GFTT to diabolic edict for a larger tourney. But am I underprepared?

Also what should I name with therapy? Usually against blue I blind name brainstorm.

[Osmin]

exw, grats! Can you describe your side-ins and side-outs?

[Qweerios]

@Megadeus,

Good SnT decks are nearly impossible to beat pre-board and don't really get any better post-board. Having 4-6 Red Blasts alongside a couple of Thoughtseize is about the best you can do.

[Greenpoe]

Why play Coiling Oracle at all? Baleful Strix is better most of the time, statistically at least, unless you've been spending mana on Top or Jace or something, but by the time you have that kind of mana, do you still need immediate ramp as opposed to just waiting 1 more turn to make that land drop, assuming you draw a land? If you don't flip a land off Oracle, then Baleful Strix is just plain better. I mean, let's be honest. Deathtouch and flying is pretty good.

[Qweerios]

I am fairly convinced that Oracle is vastly superior to Baleful Strix. Opening up with GU is much safer than UB, and puting a land in play as opposed to into your hand is very important against any form of Tempo deck because it means your Deed will hit sooner or past Daze. The extra land drop also grants enough tempo in the Control MUs to allow you to land Jace first. I find that the body of Oracle and Strix is rarely relevant because I mainly use them as Therapy fodder and rarely ever beat down with either.

In a lot of cases, I prefer Oracle to Explorer, I was even considering a 3/3 split at some point. Oracle is also very welcomed against Miracle and Stoneblade whenever I use the transformational sideboard.

[KMS]

What are some good SB cards for them? Is Cranial or Thought Hemmorage really that good?
Also what should I name with therapy? Usually against blue I blind name brainstorm.

Blind calling brainstorm is most of the time a good random call.

You might want to test out what Bruizar proposed:[CARDS]Kederekt Leviathan[\CARDS]

Depending on your built you can tutor it with intuition/diabolic intent/elladamri's call/living wish/gifts ungiven. Works good with [CARDS]Phantasmal Image[\CARDS] as well.



If you have two of them in your hand, there is no way SnT can win against you, since the second one bounces the first one, and they can't counter it.

You can also do this.
Intuition for 3 Kederekt Leviathan. Keep 1 for show and tell. Wait for show and tell to resolve putting into play Kederekt from hand, then on your turn Unearth a Kederekt from your graveyard, bounce your other Leviathan and wait for the next Show and Tell




I do agree with Greenpoe, Baleful Strix seems much more usable then a 1/1 chumpblocking do nothing creature. If its a land and you happened to have one land in your hand then yes coiling oracle seems good. In all of the other cases it sais:

Baleful Strix
Instead of drawing a card, reveal that card and put it in your hand
Baleful Strix loses flying
Baleful strix loses death touch

And there you have a Coiling Oracle

[jbone2016]

Abrupt Decay BG
Instant Rare
Abrupt Decay can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Destroy target nonland permanent with converted mana cost 3 or less.

Geez....Smother for anything?

[Megadeus]

Is it plyed here? I think so. I will probably replace my GFTT with it if nothing else.

[KMS]

Hell yeah!!


http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113

Anyone had problems with counterbalance and not wanting a grip?

It doesnt pwn Jace but i'll take it anyways... Uber!!



On a side note, Im testing right now
2/3 mb Kederek Leviathan + animate dead.. scoop :P

The only minor is that the deck is even more graveyard dependant, so I changed my sb from protective/haters to haters/show and tell (jin and emraku)

[Qweerios]

Abrupt Decay is an instant Legacy Staple. It will replace any form of spot removal (GftT, Doom Blade, Dismember, etc.). However, I doubt it will replace Pulse entirely for Nic Fit, namely because of Batterskull, Jace and friends.

Oh yeah, it does make a fine Cascade target for Shardless Agent.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Want!

[bruizar]

Hell yeah!!


http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135341&d=1346904113

Anyone had problems with counterbalance and not wanting a grip?

It doesnt pwn Jace but i'll take it anyways... Uber!!

This will help fight all the major tier 1 strategies. RUG loses its efficient tempo counters and its efficient beaters except mongooses.

Then there is maverick, which is just entirely prone to this card.

U/W Miracles and Stoneblade are still very hard to beat I think. It loses its Counterbalance, but that wasn't really a problem. Vendilion Clique and Stoneforge Mystic already get value when you can cast abrupt though. It doesn't fix this matchup, but its nice to have something against CB.




On a side note, Im testing right now
2/3 mb Kederek Leviathan + animate dead.. scoop :P

The only minor is that the deck is even more graveyard dependant, so I changed my sb from protective/haters to haters/show and tell (jin and emraku)
Kederekt Leviathan and Animate Dead is downright vicious. I like it!

[Arianrhod]

Inb4 Replaces Pulse.

It doesn't. Vraska doesn't. Nothing does. Pulse (and Vindicate) are our catch-all answers. Jace has been hiding for a while now, but he's still our public enemy #1. He's the card that we struggle with the most, with the possible exception of Show and Tell. Abrupt Decay (AD) doesn't deal with that problem.

So what does it kill? Well, it kills all of Maverick...if there isn't a Mother of Runes out. This strikes me as a problem. We don't have the pile of removal in our deck that Rock does, so Mom is a lot more likely to get active, rendering this card moot. Obv. post-Deed strengths etc. It kills all of RUG's non-Goose threats. Most notably, it kills Delver on turn 2, no questions asked. No Dazes to play around, no fucks to be given. Done, gone. This is probably the strongest aspect of this card. It removes the only hands he die to out of RUG from the equation. With this card in our decks, our win % vs RUG should jump to somewhere around 90%. I'm normally leery about improving our best matchup, but since RUG has continued to be the most popular deck in the format by a good margin, I'm okay with it in this instance. Having half of our rounds be byes is a good feeling.

Miracles / Blade, then. Kills CB, as noted. Kills Clique, Stoneforge (this can delay Batterskull for several turns until we hopefully draw a Therapy). Clique does generate value, but if it's not punching us in the face for 3 every turn while they sit behind a counterwall, I'm fine with that. The most important thing out of 'blade decks IMO is that it kills Sword of Feast and Famine. Having more answers to that card is not a bad idea. When Blade gets F/F running quickly and then protects it, that can be a serious problem.

It kills a pile of other random shit too. Most goblins, all Merfolk, Vials (lol), Sylvan Libraries, LED if they let it sit there, Thopter Foundry, O-Ring, all of Zoo, etc etc.

I think that the greatest strength of AD is that it's often essentially a 1-shot Deed activation. I know there have been times where I've had to blow a Deed as a 1-for-1, and it was depressing. AD removes those situations.

I think Qweerios is exactly right here. There is no longer any reason for any version to run G4tT, Dismember, Doom Blade, or any of that garbage. This is -far- and away the best 2-drop black removal spell of all time. Outside of that, however, I'm less sure of the fate of AD. I don't think Scapewish cares, and I don't think that Rector has space. It seems that it's more of a toy for straight GB, BUG, and GBW Rock-style.

Open question: those of you who are running Darkblast, does AD replace that as well? I'm inclined to think not.

Open question 2: do you guys think that the threat of this card, coupled with our increasing popularity and Rock's resurgence after winning the last SCG Open, will result in a decline of RUG? My gut is telling me that there's another serious meta-shift coming, and that RUG (our best matchup) won't be at the center of the universe anymore. Not sure what will, though.

[TheArchitect]

I think Qweerios is exactly right here. There is no longer any reason for any version to run G4tT, Dismember, Doom Blade, or any of that garbage. This is -far- and away the best 2-drop black removal spell of all time. Outside of that, however, I'm less sure of the fate of AD. I don't think Scapewish cares, and I don't think that Rector has space. It seems that it's more of a toy for straight GB, BUG, and GBW Rock-style.

This, its basically just an upgrade if you feel you need 2cc efficient. I know I wont be using it. Maybe I'd use 1-2 in GB, but probably not. Again it would be in the G4tT slot, not innocent blood, pulse, etc. I dont think it replaces Darkblast. Darkblast serves a different role. It is the mom killer mostly. But is meant to invalidate all of mavs mana dorks, and delvers/snaps/cliques from turn 1, to the end the game.

As for the new GB PW, unless your fine with her being a 5 mana pulse, she doesnt change the board state, or even do anything really if you just +1 her. For her to be any good, you have to have card AND board advantage, before you cast her, and while you charge her up. I say that, because if you want to use her -7, you have to have to make sure you opponent doesnt have enough blockers/removal.

With PW like elspeth, and garruk, lilliana they have an immediate impact on the board/hand that is INCREASING their loyalty so they can impact the board even more. Where as Vraska doesnt do anything till you charge her up a bit, or she can be a 5cc pulse.

She might have a place in a really control heavy BUG variant, that gets free card advantage, but needs a solid wincon. But then again, why not just place more JTMS?

[catmint]

Question from RUGs perspective:
I never played against a decent NIC Fit player in a tournament, but from my online testing I did no find the matchup not as much in Nic Fits favour as it sounds in this thread (played only a couple of games but won them - getting favourable draws obviously). Of course I run the Stifle Version and if I don't have a Stifle I force Veteran Explorer & GSZ for "x=1" 100% of the time... but then I feel that RUG can draw enough gas to bring Nic Fit into burn range.

How do you see it and do you refer against RUG players without stifle? How big is the difference?

From my perspective the matchup against my RUG list with stifle is 60/40 in Nic Fits favour. If you have 4 Decay though that percentage could go down to 70/30, since mongoose alone won't make it.

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters. :laugh:

[TheArchitect]

Question from RUGs perspective:
I never played against a decent NIC Fit player in a tournament, but from my online testing I did no find the matchup not as much in Nic Fits favour as it sounds in this thread (played only a couple of games but won them - getting favourable draws obviously). Of course I run the Stifle Version and if I don't have a Stifle I force Veteran Explorer & GSZ for "x=1" 100% of the time... but then I feel that RUG can draw enough gas to bring Nic Fit into burn range.

How do you see it and do you refer against RUG players without stifle? How big is the difference?

From my perspective the matchup against my RUG list with stifle is 60/40 in Nic Fits favour. If you have 4 Decay though that percentage could go down to 70/30, since mongoose alone won't make it.

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters. :laugh:

Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

[Arianrhod]

Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

Pretty much this. The single biggest problem that Nic Fit has as a deck is that it's really hard to pilot correctly, and it attracts a ton of really, really, mind-numbingly bad players. Probably 75% of the Nic Fit players out there are random durdles that pick it up because they can play with some of their standard cards, or throw whatever EDH crap into the deck they want to. Most of the people in this thread that have been piloting it for a while now have reported favorable results, and I have every confidence that those in the thread who have just recently picked it up and have floundered with it a bit will eventually post results as well once they get more used to it. Whenever I see another Nic Fit player when I'm on the road, I make sure to stop and ask if they're on the Source. I think I've had literally one person in ten tell me that they are. It's really depressing.

Keep in mind that Nic Fit has a bajillion different versions, Catmint. Some are better than others vs various decks. I can count the number of games I've lost to RUG with my Rector build on one hand. Carpet of Flowers provides a serious backup mana ramp engine.

Think of this way: everything that RUG tries to do is based around the theory of tempo and the philosophy of resource denial. Everything that Nic Fit tries to do is based around the theory of ramping and the philosophy of outclassing your opponent. Our removal is better, our threats are bigger, our recursion is unmatched, AND we get there faster than anyone else. RUG and Nic Fit are diametrically opposed in every way imaginable. Sure, RUG can godhand us with Architect's example or like Devler that nat flips, land, stifle, stifle, force, cantrip, daze. But we can do it, too, with like Explorer, Explorer, Therapy, Tower, land, Deed, GSZ.

RUG with stifle is definitely better vs us than RUG without stifle. Therapy usually calls Stifle in the matchup, though, just in case....whether the RUG deck has it or not. Forcing an Explorer is fine, because then you're down two cards, and RUG doesn't have card advantage at all. It has card quality, perhaps, but it has no inherent advantage. Again, it's all built around tempo. Nic Fit is loaded with value. Most of our cards generate card advantage of some sort, whether literal or virtual. Every one of our spells that resolves put RUG further and further on its back foot. If you Force things, that just makes it worse honestly. Does that make sense, Catmint?

[Star|Scream]

Just wondering if the folks arguing with Qweerios for strix have actually tested it, in BUG fit, and what the results were?

Bear in mind the oracles are in the deck for their ramp, cantrip, and therapy bodies. You can't always count on explorers to get you to 6 or 7 mana quickly.

Yes, with 0 library manipulation, it will only ramp around 1/3 of the time, but the deck has 4 brainstorm and 2 tops. If you know you have a land behind your oracle when you cast it, it effectively costs 1.

[catmint]

Thanks, makes sense. Splashing red surely improves the RUG MU.

Concerning your evaluation of Vraska:

As for the new GB PW, unless your fine with her being a 5 mana pulse, she doesnt change the board state, or even do anything really if you just +1 her. For her to be any good, you have to have card AND board advantage, before you cast her, and while you charge her up. I say that, because if you want to use her -7, you have to have to make sure you opponent doesnt have enough blockers/removal.

With PW like elspeth, and garruk, lilliana they have an immediate impact on the board/hand that is INCREASING their loyalty so they can impact the board even more. Where as Vraska doesnt do anything till you charge her up a bit, or she can be a 5cc pulse.

She might have a place in a really control heavy BUG variant, that gets free card advantage, but needs a solid wincon. But then again, why not just place more JTMS?
That she does not have an impact on board/hand while ticking up is true. But lilianas effect is symmetric and the decks I played liliana my opponent was often hellbent. Still i love to tick her up to stack edict effects. The +1 of Vraska does nothing except someone has a problem with you stacking up a ton pulses. And what is wrong stacking up pulses or using it as a win-condition? Assuming equal board & equal hand, you are both drawing cards and trading spells while you tick up. Also if you mention jace as major problem and pulse as the answer. What jace does well is either check if you draw a pulse of brainstorm for an answer you pulse. With her ALREADY in play, Jace wont do a lot.

Concerning the play more jace argument. If i play a deck that relies on jace to win, I would MUCH rather brainstorm into oblivion, beeing in full control and at one point cast vraska to actually end the game instead of ticking up to 12 with Jace.

Evaluating Vraska we could try to assign how much of a cards are her abilities worth.
For example:

Since 3 cuonters are 1 "bad pulse", you could see her as 1.66 pulses which goes in line with the CMC 3 vs. 5. Her +1 simply draws you 1/3 of a card, while having the bonus of being a "murder" for everything attacking her. you can argue that Jace or Espeth +1 ability is worth "a card" on its own, however these cards are not played in legacy. Jace of course has infinate brainstorms which is not only worth a card, but worth the best card in legacy, so nothing beats him - we know.

Anyway I feel she is most of the time at least a solid 2:1 with the potential of much more (if you have time). This does not sound too exciting, but in the context of her +1 protection, "stored" versatitly to kill whatever comes along while providing a decent win condition I like her.

So I agree with you: probably less attractive if you have decent creatures to win with like Nic Fit does, but if you rely on a planeswalker win I like her.


Edit:

Forcing an Explorer is fine, because then you're down two cards, and RUG doesn't have card advantage at all....Every one of our spells that resolves put RUG further and further on its back foot. If you Force things, that just makes it worse honestly. Does that make sense, Catmint?
Thanks, makes absolute sense.
Just 1 point: RUGs card davntage is built in curving out at 2 and drawing less lands (or shuffling them back). As you said it wins with tempo and therefor it is correct to Force explorer. If you then have look around with SD.top for you lands, while trying to remove RUG's threat -> this is wher pierce/daze can work. So altough it might be fine with you sometimes if Explorer is forced, Explorer giving you 2 lands is surely worse. :)

[Qweerios]

@Catmint,

I think that the advent of Thragtusk has drasticaly turned the RUG and UR Delver MUs in Nic Fit's favor. Before M13, gaining life and landing a threat often revolved around landing a carefuly planned Ooze, or playing sub-par cards like Kitchen Finks that would slightly improve the MU, but not enough to be out of Delver + burn range. The MU was still heavily favorable for Nic Fit then. Arianrhod rode Baneslayer Angels to victory the same way any Nic Fit list can ride Thragtusk now.

Looking at the RUG MU at present, it is merely a race to Thragtusk with Ooze as a backup plan. I find it almost impossible to lose with a combination of Therapy, Explorers, Oracles, Deeds, and 5 virtual copies of Thrag/Ooze. I side in a single copy of Selkie Hedge-Mage from my SB and it is usualy the nail on the coffin (Gain 3 life + bounce Delver/Thrag is really powerful here). I don't know for the rest of Nic Fit players, but in my case, I can't remember the last time I lost a 2/3 to RUG Delver, and it represents the majority of what I face in sanctioned tournaments. I can tell you, however, that I've had occasional losses against RUG Delver as well as a good portion of losses against UR Delver in my early days of playing Nic Fit.

[Star|Scream]

@Qweerios:

Would you mind going over some of your gifts piles now that you have added Genesis and removed stronghold?

[jbone2016]

Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

I think I would at least one but not four. It does seem like if you have more then one you want to run them in a BG build or BUg build.

[exw]

This thread is moving fast with the spoiler season in full swing.


*Like.*

Now, a few questions:

How often did you flashback the Edict? Did it ever matter that Edict cost 2 as opposed to I.Blood's 1? (Assume that you didn't have I.Blood in your board for this question. Thinking of replacing). How often did you use I.Blood to sac your own Explorer?

How were the Maelstrom Pulses? I'm strongly considering replacing them with Bonfires, which would improve the tribal matchup a bit, while still maintaining the ability to kill planeswalkers (redirect the damage to the walker). The deck would suffer a little in the artifact and enchantment killing department, as it would be wholly reliant on Deed and/or BW->Pulse. Might consider putting in a Gleeful Sabotage if I make that change.

How would the Arenas have been for you, if you had them in your board as opposed to the Carpets? Seems from your report that Carpets were better overall, but some of that might be matchup-speciifc.

How often did you have to mull because of color screw in your opener, and how was the Volrath's Stronghold? Would it have been better as a 2nd Stomping Ground, you think?


1) Everytime I wished for Chainer's Edict I flashed it back. This was probably three or four times during the tournament. It really punishes people who are "playing around" Deed or other sweepers. The seven mana cost for the flashback might seem unreasonable, but I was able to get there easily throughout the tournament. I did use Innocent Blood a few times to take out my own Explorer. I personally like the split. Having the option of either of those was working really well for me.

2) Maelstrom Pulse, on the other hand, was rarely seen. I just didn't draw too many of them throughout the day. I ran a couple out trying to get rid of a Jace in my match two but they were Counterbalanced. Also, several games I sat with them in my hand facing down some Mongooses. I do think it is a great card to have access to, so I would never remove it completely from the 75. I could see Bonfire being decent in the sideboard. We are also considering Lavalanche, but that is probably just worse.

3) Phyrexian Arena does seem sweet. There were several games were I was out of gas with only a top in play. I just recently acquired a few so I will be testing them out myself. Carpet of Flowers was huge for me but I played almost exclusively blue decks all day. This is a card that is probably very meta-dependent.


exw, grats! Can you describe your side-ins and side-outs?

Certainly. For the most part I kept the wishboard intact during the matches. I preferred to have a choice with a Burning Wish, rather than have the side-boarded sorcery.
Against RUG I brought in Carpet of Flowers and some amount of REBs (really only if I saw Stifle). I usually removed some combination of Wood Elves, Wickerbough Elder (He came out after every game one) and Maelstrom Pulses.

Against Zoo, I pretty much left the maindeck untouched. I didn't really have anything specific for them, and wasn't very troubled by their action.

Against Esper, I brought in the Carpet of Flowers and the REBs. REB was very good in these matches for me. Again, I typically removed the Wood Elves, Wickerbough Elder and the Maelstrom Pulses.

Again, I didn't really run the gauntlet as far as matchups goes. I also probably have much less experience with this deck than most people in the thread. This is just my experiences with it, and what worked well for me.

[mini1337s]

I keep seeing that people are testing BUG-fit, and occasionally see lists thrown around, but is there a semi-optimal BUG list floating around, just to work from?

[Arianrhod]

This thread is moving fast with the spoiler season in full swing.

This thread tends to move pretty quick in general =) We have a lot of good discussion here....really is one of the best threads on here IMO.

[Kich867]

This thread tends to move pretty quick in general =) We have a lot of good discussion here....really is one of the best threads on here IMO.

I second that. Unfortunately there's no legacy scene near me that I know of yet, just moved to a new state, but I'm slowly accumulating cards. The frequency of Nic Fit's conversations and tweakings is definitely a huge draw--I played Aggro Loam for quite awhile and really enjoyed the deck but there's virtually no discussion for it anymore. It's hard to stay interested in a deck that no one talks about when you don't have anyone to really play with haha.

[Greenpoe]

For anyone who's considered Bonfire, you should also consider the bajillion x damage to each creature variants - Comet Storm, Star Storm, Firespout, Slagstorm. And Rolling Earthquake - definitely the closest you can get to Bonfire without the whole non-Miracle cost disadvantage.

For anyone not running red, there's always Crypt Rats/Plague Spitter type effects. I suppose Plague Spitter could be decent vs. Mav, killing off all their x/1's.

[HoneyT]

There's almost no non-miracle disadvantage. With Tops we can keep it floating on top. If we do draw it, it still isn't a problem because we have access to so much mana. We're not really going to need to hardcast it for 6 or something stupid like that. It's to help the tribal matchups and such. Assuming we aren't miracle-ing it, X=2 is perfectly fine most of the time, which only costs 5. The other red wraths aren't one sided, which, along with the insane miracle blowout, is the most appealing part.

[Qweerios]

I saw a couple of requests for BUG Fit and Gifts Fit lists so I will post mine. They are very similar because I have moved from the black core of BG Nic Fit to the blue core. The reasons for this shift are mainly:

-Jace > Liliana;
-Brainstorm > Innocent Blood/Thoughtseize split

Gifts Fit

Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Grave Titan
1 Sphinx of Uthuun

Spells (24)
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
2 Vendilion Clique



Common Gifts piles include:

Genesis, Cabal Therapy, Eternal Witness, Thragtusk/Grave Titan/Sphinx of Uthuun

Karakas, Eternal Witness, Green Sun's Zenith, Vendilion Clique

The current BUG Fit list I play is almost a copy of this one with a few exceptions:

-1 Genesis for +1 Fierce Empath;
-1 Karakas for +1 Volrath Stronghold;
-2 Gifts Ungiven for +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and +1 Vraska the Unseen

I am also testing a transformational sideboard for Stoneblade, Miracle, and High Tide where I substitute all the Explorers and Therapies in favor of Carpet of Flowers, Thoughtseize, and various counterspells.

[Lord Seth]

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters.What about Lands vs. High Tide?

[Philipp2293]

I've played Lands for 2 tournaments now and beat High Tide in both :tongue:

[eq.firemind]

Gift pile with Genesis leads me to idea of Buried Alive piles.
Buried Alive is weaker than Intuition and is vulnerable to gravehate, but on the other hand it allows you to stay in :b::g: or splash white/red if you want.

Some Buried Alive piles:
Genesis, Shriekmaw, something - creature kill engine
Genesis, Sakura-Tribe Elder, something - ramp engine
Genesis, Faerie Macabre, something - gravehate engine
Nim Devourer, 2xSomething - if you realy need sacrifice outlet
Genesis, big creature, something - grab-a-finisher pile
Genesis, Vengevine, 1-costed creature - if you have another cheap creature in hand, you can activate Vengevine next turn
Genesis, Squee, Goblin Nabob, something - Food for Liliana of the Veil or Fauna Shaman (Fauna Shaman works with Vengevine too)
3 Vengevines - if you have 2 creatures in hand

Have anyone thought of such engine?

[litenkatt]

This sunday I will participate in a legacy tournament (really good prices!)with my GBw deck. Haven't been playing for all summer so I will probably be a bit stiff or w/e. Although I did some play testing yesterday against MUD, U/W Miracle and some combo deck that ran show&tell/emrakul and helm of obedience combo.

I had a hard time chosing between GBw and GB. But I think GBw is stronger because of sigarda, swords and sun titan.

MUD

I literally slaughtered this guy. He had wurmcoil turn 2 or something and later on he would cast 2x Eldrazi's (kozilek and urmog(?)). Buuuut sun titan + pernicious deed is just simply too powerful. Also, sigarda does a great job against annihilator. I love how the people I play with all make fun of me because I play with "standard" cards (sun titan, sigarda etc) but I still get them :-)

UW Miracle

This matchup is hard but absolutley doable. We played 2-2 I think before I had to leave. Both of the games I lost, was to Jace. Pernicious deed is an allstar against UW Miracle. The only problem I seem to have against this deck is Jace. I only run 2x Maelstrom pulse MD, thinking of adding another one. What do you think about that? Or is there any other answer that's good against jace? needle maybe.

Combo deck

This deck was very hard, partly because I had never played against it before so I was not quite sure how to play. I can answer helm of obedience combo farily good (pulse, deed, teeg and qasali) but show and tell -> emrakul gets me every time. I feel like I have a pretty good deck against him though, maybe I was a bit unlucky and the fact that I haven't actually played against it before. When liliana hit the board, he just scooped pretty much. She's lovely!

I really want to add more planeswalker to my deck. Currently I'm only running 2x liliana. Reason why is that they are soo good with deed and decks like UW miracle and other similar control decks have a hard time to answer those walkers. Not sure which ones I should add, candidates are the following:

elspeht knight errant
garruk relentless
garruk primal hunter (GGG might be too much in this deck)
Gideon jura
karn liberated

Right now I'm leaning against elspeth. Feels like she could take of jace somewhat good too.

Also one more thing, I'm tbh not sure about Thragtusk. It feels like I have a good matchup against burn/UR delver decks as is, and I feel that's the only setup I want thragtusk against anyways. I will be cutting him for now. Perhaps if I'd run recurring then I could make some sweet interactions, but Im not.

If it goes well on sunday, I will make a report.

[Megadeus]

Buried Alive actually seems very interesting... A tad slow, but certainly powerful. A sample pile; Genesis, Eternal Witness, Thragtusk? Admittedly I have never played with BA, Gifts, or Intuition so I am not familiar with piles.

[Megadeus]

Congrats to everyone who helped develop scapewish as well! You guys got a third of an SCG article dedicated to talking about how awesome Nic Fit is!

[kabards]

this is my own version of Punishing Nic Fit build when Return to Ravnica comes.

Creatures : 14

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells : Instant/Sorcery/Planeswalker/Artifact : 24

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Abrupt Decay - Return to Ravnica
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands : 22

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Badlands
1 Taiga


Sideboard : 15

3 Duress
2 Slaughter Games - Return to Ravnica
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Damnation
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tsunami
1 Boil
1 Abrupt Decay - Return to Ravnica
1 Surgical Extraction

[Claymore]

Could you link to the SCG article? I took a look but could only find the top 8 match against goblins

[Arianrhod]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24821-Eternal-Europe-The-True-Heroes-Of-Legacy.html

[Greenpoe]

I added a Collective Voyage as a Burning Wish target for the Scapewish version and it's been pretty useful. It's great because as a Wish target, it can manafix (getting black mana when you don't have any). Or, if you have, say, 3 lands and you're stuck with with a Thragtusks and Scapeshifts in your hand, that's when it's really great to wish for since it'll grab as many lands as you need and set up for the turn after you play it.

[Arianrhod]

That sounds pretty interesting. What's your board look like?

[Greenpoe]

Here's my current list:

Land
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
6 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures
2 Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells
2 Scapeshift
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reanimate
1 Memoricide
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Damnation
1 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Voyage
1 Diabolic Intent

The double black cost in Damnation can be difficult to hit, but I think it's too good to cut as a catch-all vs. creatures. Also, I really liked Reanimate. Getting an enemy's dead Goyf or KotR for the cost of 1 mana and a couple life can really be fantastic.

EDIT: Swapped out Wood Elves for Viridian Emissary and I've been extremely pleased. The 2 power is good for picking away at their life total and better for blocking as opposed to Wood Elves 1 power and 3 mana.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

12 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
2 Thrun, the Last Troll

8 Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

9 Library Manipulation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Diabolic Intent

10 Removal
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Recursion
1 Recurring Nightmare

20 Mana
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
4 Swamp

15 Sideboard
4 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
5 ???

Any suggestions for those last 5 sideboard spots?

[Megadeus]

@Epiclevel:
3 ooze is a bit much, especially when you own creature count is so low. 3 eternal witness is also a bit low. And you have nothing to just slam and overpower your opponents. Also Sensei's Top > Sylvan Library. It saves itself from deed. I understand that you run 3, but the mana used from top is usually worth it, and having the option to use the ability at any time, and multiple times a turn are ver relevant. There are so many times that I am looking for a deed, so I look with top, then crack a fetch, then find the deed and then draw it with Top. It's just sub a great versatile card.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

@ Creatures: What do you mean by overpower? Like as in Win-Con? How about the following creature base?

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Wtiness (Prefer 3 since GSZ and DI can tutor for it and Recurring Nightmare gives the Eternal Nightmare Loop)
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaea's Revenge (Fatter Thrun)

@ Sylvan Library: Funny you mentioned that: I cashed in my playset of Tops to fund this version of Nic Fit. Anyhow, I see your point here.

[Kich867]

Browse earlier posts in the thread, in particular look at Qweerios' GB list and get inspiration from there. Personally, I wouldn't go without running Fierce Empath and Grave Titan in straight GB fit.

You want a dude that hits the table and ends the game in a turn or two, that's the goal-- Ramp like crazy, rape their hand, rape their board, and rape their face with a giant dude. 7 Mana is pushing it for what Gaea's Revenge does, 3 turn clock no bueno. Grave Titan makes dudes and ends it in 2 turns.

[Megadeus]

Yeah. Nothing in legacy can handle the Grave Father. That guy almost always wins, along with stabilizing the board.

[Arianrhod]

I'm off to Vestal today, playing the Rector version. Hopefully I'll have another top8 report for everyone =)

[HoneyT]

I'm off to Vestal today, playing the Rector version. Hopefully I'll have another top8 report for everyone =)

Whoooo!! Starved Rusalka FTW!!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How's this for a win-con package? My guess is that taking one turn to untap the Magosi and another two (back to back I might add) for the combo to go online is not a good thing, but the ability to go infinite turns (followed by infinite skipped turns) unless they topdeck wasteland/Life from the Loam for Wasteland despite how else they affect our board position seems really strong.

1 Island
2 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Primeval Titan

As for what else I'd run blue for, I'm thinking Intuition to set up the eternal nightmare loop more efficiently and can actually give it relevant targets (either creatures for Recurring Nightmare or else for Eternal Witness) when it goes online. So something like the following after including the above package.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuiton
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Magosi the Waterveil
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest

[Alexeezay]

I got a card question because I'm not very familiar/experienced with Recurring Nightmare: Can I loop Palinchron for infinite mana (7 lands) with Recurring Nightmare, while Palinchron is the only creature? Or do you always need an other creature in the GY/play for exchange, to actually bring back something...or can Palinchron always bring back itself into play via Nightmare, after it has been sacced?

[slikwilly]

I got a card question because I'm not very familiar/experienced with Recurring Nightmare: Can I loop Palinchron for infinite mana (7 lands) with Recurring Nightmare, while Palinchron is the only creature? Or do you always need an other creature in the GY/play for exchange, to actually bring back something...or can Palinchron always bring back itself into play via Nightmare, after it has been sacced?

You need a target to use it. It's another reason to run Sakura Tribe Elder or Starved Rusalka.

[Megadeus]

Has anyone every actually tested Ihf Biff Efreet? It seems good as it is a Green Sunnable way to kill Planeswalkers.

[Kich867]

I got a card question because I'm not very familiar/experienced with Recurring Nightmare: Can I loop Palinchron for infinite mana (7 lands) with Recurring Nightmare, while Palinchron is the only creature? Or do you always need an other creature in the GY/play for exchange, to actually bring back something...or can Palinchron always bring back itself into play via Nightmare, after it has been sacced?

So this is just a pretty simple case of Cost VS Resolution.

The cost to activate Recurring Nightmare is: Return recurring nightmare to your hand and sacrifice a creature. That's the cost. Prior to the ability going on the stack, that happens.

So now the ability is on the stack, Palinchron that you sacrificed is a legal target because it's in your GY when the ability goes on the stack. So this works. It resolves and palinchron hits your field again.

This combo was covered previously by Bruizar I believe.

[Star|Scream]

So this is just a pretty simple case of Cost VS Resolution.

The cost to activate Recurring Nightmare is: Return recurring nightmare to your hand and sacrifice a creature. That's the cost. Prior to the ability going on the stack, that happens.

So now the ability is on the stack, Palinchron that you sacrificed is a legal target because it's in your GY when the ability goes on the stack. So this works. It resolves and palinchron hits your field again.

This combo was covered previously by Bruizar I believe.

No, you need to target a creature before you pay for the cost.

[Esper3k]

No, you need to target a creature before you pay for the cost.

This is correct. You declare targets, THEN pay costs.

That's why a Wasteland can target itself with it's ability.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Has anyone every actually tested Ihf Biff Efreet? It seems good as it is a Green Sunnable way to kill Planeswalkers.

I'm still a scrub with this archetype, but it just seems too mana intensive. 4G to GSZ and G to Hurricane for 1 (which also means you can't keep using him each turn unless you only burn for 2 each time).

Having said that, the only other tutor-kill option for dealing with Planewalkers would be to use Summoner Pact with Mold Shambler, and running pact for just this would be ridiculous.

TL:DR: Probably the best option, but still only a decent option it seems.

[bruizar]

Ifh-Biff is a 3-turn clock that gets rid of entreat, clique and planeswalkers. It's a good card.

[Nelis]

Ifh-Biff is a 3-turn clock that gets rid of entreat, clique and planeswalkers. It's a good card.

But does it work in practice? I haven't played against miracle control yet but do they not set Entreat up at the end of your turn? That means you can only GSZ for Ifh-Biff in your next turn and activate it the turn thereafter (unless you're ridiculously far in late game). It seems to me you're already dead by then.

[fireiced]

I personally used scapewish as my deck of choice in legacy tournaments in my local area!
besides horror matchups against combo decks like belcher and SI, it has been a blast to play!

Huntmaster of the Fells is really a devastating card by itself in a lot of my match ups


I just need more tips on how to fight uw miracle control, like what to name when I therapy them etc

[MrIggins]

Played in my first ever Legacy tournament yesterday at Jupiter games with BG Nic Fit. I got very lucky in that I played against fair decks all day. I'm pretty new to both the deck and the format but I managed to hold my own, went 4-2-1 on the day and took 20th out of 90ish people.

I played the following list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
22 Lands

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
13 Creatures

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
22 Spells

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Planeswalkers

Sideboard
3 Extirpate
2 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast

ROUNDS: I didn't take great notes especially about sideboarding (which I'll do next time so I can work on that) but here's what I played.

Round 1: 0-2 loss to BUG Shardless Agent with Hymn, Ancestral Visions, Tarmogoyf and Jace
SB: Definitely brought in Duress and Thoughtseize but I don't remember what I removed.
(0-1)

Round 2: 2-0 win against RUG Delver
SB: Carpet of Flowers is insane.
(1-1)

Round 3: 2-1 win against Goblins. Lost to multiple Piledrivers and a Sharpshooter.
SB: I brought in Darkblast for Wickerbough Elder and I think I brought Damnation in at some point.
(2-1)

Round 4: 1-1 draw against UW Miracles with Stoneforge Mystic. Lost game 1 to a huge entreat after dropping to 1, gaining life back up to 13 with Thragtusk and Ooze, and getting my board STP'd. Won game 2 but it took a long time. Game 3 would have been a win for me if I had had a couple more turns, my own fault because i was playing a bit slowly in G1 and G2. I had a Garruk at 9 loyalty and he had 2 life when turns ended.
SB: Duress, Thoughtseize and Carpet of Flowers came in. Finks, Innocent Blood and Veteran Explorer came out in some combinations (didn't want to make his miracles better or ramp him into Jace. Possibly wrong?)
(2-1-1)

Round 5: 2-1 win against UW Stoneblade with Delver. Lost game 1 after gaining a ton of life with Finks, Thragtusk and his Swords to Plowshares. Game 2 I got a good disruptive draw and got there with Treetop Villages, game 3 I got Primeval Titan going with Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower.
SB: Same as Round 4
(3-1-1)

Round 6: 1-2 loss to Maverick. Game 1 was odd, I built up a huge board presence with Garruk pretty quickly and was able to just attack through his large Terravore and Knight to kill him in 2 hits. Game 2 was a huge grind that I ended up punting because of time pressure- he told me later that I could have gotten him for lethal by cracking Deed to make him tap his Thrun and then attacking with Treetop Village, a play I just didn't see. I later Zenithed for Thragtusk when he was beating me down with Thrun, when I should have just gotten my own Thrun and tried to win with my Villages. Really crazy game. I lost in G3 to a turn 3 Elspeth.

SB: +Nihil Spellbomb, +Damnation, -Wickerbough Elder, -1 something else
(3-2-1)

Round 7: 2-0 win against Enchantress. Drawing at least one Pernicious Deed in each game is really good against that deck.

SB: +2 Memoricide, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Duress i believe. Finks and 3 Explorers came out, and probably 2 Innocent Blood.
(4-2-1)

////

I definitely want to play a Dryad Arbor in my list as another way of ramping myself with Green Sun's Zenith. I think a Hornet Queen might also be a good choice, at least in the Sideboard, for Maverick and as a pseudo-solution to Emrakul. It's probably better than Darkblast against Goblins, assuming I can get to 7 mana before I die. Not sure.

Anyway, I've lurked here for a bit watching the discussion so I thought I'd introduce myself. This deck got me hooked on the best format ever, so I expect I'll be active on this thread a good deal. Thanks for reading

[HoneyT]

Re: Ifh Buff Efreet

I get what you guys are trying to do there, but really it just seems cute. If you can keep a Deed on the table they can't even Entreat and you're applying pressure all the while. As for a sideboard card, extraction effects are just as good as the Efreet and more applicable in other matchups. If you Extract their Jaces and Entreats, their deck becomes a steaming pile of shit.

@MrIggins

Grats on the solid finish! Very good first time performance with a deck like this! Glad my list ran well for you and hope to be hearing more out of you soon!

[Arianrhod]

I'll give a full report and reply to people tomorrow when I'm breaking at work. Here's the minute report, though:

I played against FIVE MOTHERFUCKING EMRAKUL decks rounds 1-5. I would have killed for Iggins' matchups =(

R1 teamkilled a friend that's trying to make Gamekeeper work.
R2 died to Hypergenesis. He turn 1'd me game 2. If I hadn't been on the play I wouldn't have even had a land in play =(
R3 narrowly died to Sneak and Show
R4 beat Sneak and Show
R5 beat Sneak and Show
R6 beat Miracles
R7 beat Maverick

...ending 5-2, good for 13th place and a Plateau.

The sad thing is that the overall meta distribution of the room wasn't that high with Emrakul decks. I mean, there were a number...but there was also a pile of goblins, RUG, Blade, Maverick, and other various fair decks. I just kept getting paired up against them every round. Seriously. I don't want to see an Emrakul for the next three months. Humility is a god among men. More tomorrow =)

[litenkatt]

I'll give a full report and reply to people tomorrow when I'm breaking at work. Here's the minute report, though:

I played against FIVE MOTHERFUCKING EMRAKUL decks rounds 1-5. I would have killed for Iggins' matchups =(

R1 teamkilled a friend that's trying to make Gamekeeper work.
R2 died to Hypergenesis. He turn 1'd me game 2. If I hadn't been on the play I wouldn't have even had a land in play =(
R3 narrowly died to Sneak and Show
R4 beat Sneak and Show
R5 beat Sneak and Show
R6 beat Miracles
R7 beat Maverick

...ending 5-2, good for 13th place and a Plateau.

The sad thing is that the overall meta distribution of the room wasn't that high with Emrakul decks. I mean, there were a number...but there was also a pile of goblins, RUG, Blade, Maverick, and other various fair decks. I just kept getting paired up against them every round. Seriously. I don't want to see an Emrakul for the next three months. Humility is a god among men. More tomorrow =)

Looking forward to your report.

I played in a ~22man tournament today, went 2-3.

Lost to
MUD combo becuase I played like CRAP, literally, CRAP. I really don't want to talk about that game
UW miracles because it's a real hard setup
Combo elves because I've never played against that deck before and wasnt sure when to blow up the deed. I did it too early to think. Can anyone give me an advice here? When do I blow up the deed against elves?

I played GBw w/ suntitans, sigarda etc, pretty standard list.

Really want to try out that Rector version. Again, looking forward to your report and your decklist

[caggii]

I'll give a full report and reply to people tomorrow when I'm breaking at work. Here's the minute report, though:

I played against FIVE MOTHERFUCKING EMRAKUL decks rounds 1-5. I would have killed for Iggins' matchups =(

R1 teamkilled a friend that's trying to make Gamekeeper work.
R2 died to Hypergenesis. He turn 1'd me game 2. If I hadn't been on the play I wouldn't have even had a land in play =(
R3 narrowly died to Sneak and Show
R4 beat Sneak and Show
R5 beat Sneak and Show
R6 beat Miracles
R7 beat Maverick

...ending 5-2, good for 13th place and a Plateau.

The sad thing is that the overall meta distribution of the room wasn't that high with Emrakul decks. I mean, there were a number...but there was also a pile of goblins, RUG, Blade, Maverick, and other various fair decks. I just kept getting paired up against them every round. Seriously. I don't want to see an Emrakul for the next three months. Humility is a god among men. More tomorrow =)

Good job glad you ended up making prize. Sorry about the turn 1 ;) . That game one was kinda silly how often do you get to deed a grisledaddy. Thank for the heads up I have ken working on getting me Korean explorers he gave me a lead on the first one :) . I'll MSG you later so we can compare notes on the gifts version that I have if your ok with that
@sam good job on the finish I'm glad I got you hooked

[Megadeus]

Against elves droppin a deed basically forces them to try an grind you out. Because they can't combo because you kil blow up to world. I guess unles they drop ezuri

[Alexeezay]

But keep in mind that in G2/G3 against Elves, they have Krosan Grip and you should blow the Deed right away when you play it without passing priority

[Kich867]

Ah! Sorry for misinformation I was under the impression you could recur a single creature repeatedly with RN. My bad.

[jbone2016]

Hmm....any thoughts to a singleton Nevermore (for rector version) in the board? Seems decent vs. miracles and other matchups.

[slikwilly]

Hmm....any thoughts to a singleton Nevermore (for rector version) in the board? Seems decent vs. miracles and other matchups.

I like the idea but the 3cc makes it vulnerable to deed. Still, may try it in place of an extraction effect.

[AmishLuvah]

@ Arianrhod
Can you put a deck list up when you update tomorrow? I'm really curious what you ended up taking to Vestal.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, I derped this morning and forgot to bring my notes with me, so this report might be slightly sketchy as far as details are concerned. Some matchups I remember better than others (damn you Bobby), but I'll do what I can =)

The list:


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Thragtusk
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Faith's Fetters

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Diabolic Intent

3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower

//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
1x Raking Canopy
3x Extirpate
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Harmonic Sliver


A few words about the list. The Rusalka was decent, although my matchups weren't really those where it would have shined. Having a sac outlet available via GSZ felt really good to have. I'm still hopeful that we'll get something better somewhere in Ravnica, but if we don't, I'm okay with keeping the Rusalka around. The fact that it's a 1-drop and costs 1 to activate is relevant. Even if we get a 3- or 4-drop with a better activated ability, I'm not sure it's actually better than Rusalka due to the cmc.

Upon more testing, 2 Sakura-Tribes is definitely the right number. I'm not flooded with them, but I'm seeing them often enough to be content. They definitely increase the number of keepable hands, and their synergy with Nightmare is not to be underestimated. They're also more warm bodies for Therapy flashback, if you're playing vs combo.

Diabolic Intent was amazing all day. Being able to resolve Demonic Tutor in a deck like this is absurd, especially when it essentially is free (saccing an Explorer for it). Intet straight up won me at least one game by itself. More on that later.

I didn't miss the Maelstrom Pulse that I cut for the Rusalka. However, I also didn't play against matchups where the Pulse would have been good. The 2nd Elspeth is actually on the chopping block currently. While being able to jump things over Moat is amazing, I think that Sigarda might actually have obsolesced Elspeth. I can Vindicate or Deed away my Moat if I have to, but usually, Sigarda/Baneslayers/Yosei will get there in a Moat matchup. Sun Titan is still of relevance even if it can't attack, because I can loop it through Nightmare. If Elspeth gets cut, it'll be for the 4th Green Sun. Now that I have the Tribe Elders and the Rusalka, I want the 4th GSZ more. We'll see what happens.

Now, then, the report:

Our car got stuck behind some gas trucks going up 220, so we got there a little later than usual (like 10:40). Our driver usually plays ANT or Landstill, and didn't particularly want to play either of them because he had a long day on Sunday and didn't want to burn up all of his energy for the weekend with one of those decks. I offered him Scapewish, and he accepted. That brought the number of Nic Fit players on site to 5 (!), out of a 90-person event [2 were Scapewish, 2 were G/B, and then me]. I kept looking for TheArchitect, but JC told me that he wasn't able to make it =(

At some point Caffrey, who was judging the event, wandered up to me and asked what I've done to the meta. I was amused.

R1: Ed with Gamekeeper

Ed's a local of mine, and he has a penchant for trying to update old decks and make them viable again. He seriously has ProsBloom built, laying around his room somewhere. It's irritating. He's actually got his Gamekeeper deck to the point where it can be scary, though, and it's an Emrakul deck, which is always a shaky matchup.

Game one he mulls to five, and I'm feeling fairly decent about my keep. He proceeds to nut draw all over my face, with like a t3 hasty Emrakul after 3 discard spells. Sigh.

Game two I win by putting a Cranial Extraction on the stack naming Emrakul.

Game three is a nail-biter. We both rip each others' hands to absolute shreds, and then just sit there for a while. I eventually win on the back of Thragtusk beats, but I hadn't been feeling good about the game. Emrakul decks are scary.

R2: Bobby with motherfucking Hypergenesis.

So, I sit down and I recognize Bobby because every time I'm up there, he's playing some random Timmy/Johnny deck. The first I played vs him (months and months ago), he was on Reanimator. Last month he was on Hulk combo. Etc. So I had a feeling I wasn't going to like whatever he was about to do to my rear end.

He leads off with some fetches, and I go Forest -> Explorer. He Shows on t2. I look at my hand, and figure that I could either put out a land, to try to accel into something good, or I could put out Moat, in case it's some big ground-pounder. So I put out Moat. He puts out Angel of Despair, and nukes my Forest. I drop Phyrexian Tower, sac my dude, and do something largely irrelevant that he Forces. After a few turns of getting punched in the face by an Angel, I drop my own Angel (Baneslayer), and comment that mine's better than his, as both are 5/5s, but mine First Strikes. He shrugs, and Shows me a Griselbrand. I put out a Deed. I punch in for 5 to get my life back to something respectable, and then pass turn. He tries to swing with Grizzles, and I crack Deed for 8, because I'm Nic Fit and I can do that . We both sit there and stare at each other for a few turns. I Therapy him, naming Maelstrom Wanderer, as he's one mana short from hardcasting it. I whiff, seeing double Violent Outburst, double Spirit Guide. He rips Maelstrom Wanderer like a goddamn champion, double Violents into HG -> Wanderer + both spirit guides, and punches me for exact. Awkwardddddddddddddddd.

G2 I contemplate my hand. It had an Extirpate and a Cranial, I remember, as well as mana and acceleration. I keep like a chump, playing my land and passing turn. He doubl-Spirit Guides + land drop into Outburst -> HG -> Emrakul -> Grizzle -> Memorial -> kill. Frown.

In retrospect I never should have kept that hand. I should have mulled until I had something stupid like Baneslayer + Sigarda (or Humility) in my opening hand. But considering the strength of Bobby's hand, and that I was already down a game, I somehow doubt that it would have mattered.

In between rounds I lament my double Emrakul deck pairing, looking at the piles of fair decks that were everywhere. Naturally, my round 3 pairing:

R3: Alan Shupe with Sneak and Show. Again.

Alan and I had just played on camera the last Jupiter Games, and I knew he was still on Sneak and Show. He hadn't seen my Rector build yet, but had just annihilated my friend that was running Scapewish the previous round.

G1 I don't even remember, but I know I lost, and I don't think it was close. I think he Showed a Sneak Attack, and I put out Sigarda. He rocket punched me for 15, I took it, then swung with Sigarda in hopes that he wouldn't draw another creature. He draws Griselbrand and I die.

G2...I don't remember the circumstances, but I know Humility happened, and I know that my 1/1s are better than his 1/1s.

G3 he keeps a really permission heavy hand that doesn't have a lot of business. He Forces something pitching Force, then Forces something else pitching I think an Intuition. After a while he Shows a Griselbrand, while I put out a fetchland so I could get rid of the junk on top and get a fresh spin of my Top. I see Humility with Top, and draw that for turn. He has like one or two cards in hand, and I have a metric fuckton of mana out so I'm not worried about Spell Pierce. I just go for it, because if I tried to wait to have discard backup, he'd have gained life and could draw more than 7 cards (he was at like 13). Naturally he finds his 4th and final Force of Will in those 7 cards. Must be nice =(

So now I'm 1-2, after 3 Emrakul decks. I wander around and talk to people a bit. My friend Steve has beaten 3 combo decks in a row with Maverick, so he's running hot. My driver is losing to yet another Sneak Attack deck. It's pouring rain out, and there's some pretty vicious thunder. I think everyone thought the power was going to go out at one point.

R4 pairings go up, and I'm paired against the same Sneak player that Ryan lost to last round. Again.

R4: Sam (I think) with Sneak.

We banter a bit, and play some cards. I can't remember what happens g1 or g2. I know that I won game two, because it went to game three, and Sam was on the play. And game three is memorable because karma had pity on me. He quick-keeps, as do I. He leads City of Traitors -> Petal -> Show -> Emrakul. I Show Humility, because karma fucking said so. We proceed to play a 10ish minute game of "my 1/1s are better than yours," though he puts up a valiant effort with Submerges and counterspells.

4 Emrakuls decks......

R5: Zach with. wait for it. SNEAK ATTACK.

Jesus Christ.

This guy's luck had run out, however, and some higher power was taking pity on me. I got rocket-punched by a Shown Emrakul, but my Show had been Rector, which went and Fetters'd his spaghetti monster, putting me back to 9. An Explorer had also died to annihilation, which rebuilt a few lands, and my hand had been land-heavy in the first place, so I actually wasn't in a bad spot. Zach proceeds to flood out while I recover and eventually kill him. Winning through Emrakul attacks! yeah!

Game two we both durdle for a while. Eventually he Shows on some midgame turn or other, and I put out Humility, which I'd Intent'd for the previous turn. He spends a few minutes lamenting how horrible that is for him while I make 1/1s and Extirpate cards that make him creatures, as I know he doesn't have any bounce in his deck. I shut off his Griselbrands and Show and Tells, while he eventually makes a Sneak Attack and Sneaks an Emrakul to get rid of the one that was in play that I Fetters'd, because I'm an asshole like that. He eventually dies to 1/1s.

3-2, after 5 Emrakuls. At this point I'm just going with the flow, and kind of hoping I get paired up vs two more, so I can just make a full day of it. JC's 5-0 with Goblins, Hollywood's been playing RUG decks all day, the G/B Nic Fit player I don't know (Iggins above) has been getting fair decks all day, and Louis (the other Scapewish player) has also been getting fair matchups whenever I see him playing. I'm tilted to the point to actually WANTING to be tilted MORE. How's that for messed up?

R6: [name I don't remember] with U/W/r Miracles.

I'm sitting next to Iggins, who's playing Bryant Cook (his Maverick player. yes, Bryant was playing forests). I gently tease Bryant about playing forests, and then feel like shit shortly thereafter when he mentions to his opponent that "Oh, I'm playing forests by the way." I figured that everyone knew by that point that Bryant was on Maverick. I meant to apologize to him later, but I forgot after going to time this round =( If you happen to wander through here, Bryant, I'm sorry!

Anyway, I lead land-Top-go, while my opponent leads Tundra-Top-go and I've never been happier in my life. We proceed to have a ridiculous game one. I get a fast Arena out. He Jaces, I fetters his Jace. I Yosei him for a turn and try to set up a lock since I Intent'd for Nightmare. Unfortunately he has a Force. But it's okay, because I had Sun Titan on top of my deck. I know he has a Clique in hand from a Therapy, so I Top Titan to the 3rd position on upkeep, so that when he Cliques me I'll draw it. I attempt Sun Titan, he flips Terminus off CB. Rage. Eventually I GSZ out a Witness getting back Titan. He's used 3 Terminuses, so it should resolve. I run it out there. It resolves, triggers back Nightmare, saccing Witness for Yosei, saccing Yosei to Phy Tower, targetting his mana base. He Tops in response and then Entreats for like 6 angels. Second main I look with Top, draw off Top, play Deed, and crack for 0 while he tilts. He was furious that "of course there was a Deed there," and I opt to sit there quietly and not antagonize my opponent by pointing out that of course there was a Deed there, as I hadn't seen one yet all game, with Top and Arena literally [b]the whole game. They had to be somewhere!

We have like 13 minutes on the clock for game two, so we both board quickly and shuffle up. I make a mistake by not bringing in Harmonic Sliver, since I assumed he'd board out his Counterbalances (wrong). I also didn't know he was going to be boarding in 3 O-Rings.

He goes for a really quick Jace, which I shut down with Fetters. He O-Rings my Fetters, and then +2's Jace all game. He also has just enough control that he manages to protect it. With time ticking down he gets obviously frustrated as I'm thinking through my plays. Now, game one he was slow-playing like a champ, but I was confident in winning g1, so I didn't care. Now in game two, he tries to hurry me along multiple times, to the point of asking Caffrey to watch the game. I know what slow play is, and I know that I was playing at a perfectly reasonable pace. I was not going to let him hurry me just because he should have scooped g1 after 15 minutes instead of letting it go for 40. Time is called, Jace ults me, and I have 6 cards in my deck. GG sir. Neither of us can win in time, so it goes 1-0-1 in my favor, putting me to 4-2.

One round left. The pairings reward me:

R7: Jesse Adams with Maverick.

Jesse and I have played previously, and had some pretty epic games. This was also before I fixed Rector's Maverick matchup.

Game one I flood out like crazy while he makes a board presence. I finally hit a Rector the turn before I would die, sac it for a Deed and wrath his everything. Then Sun Titan happens, and then game two happens.

Game two he leads with a Mother, and I Therapy him. I'm thinking that I want to name Knight, but I name GSZ instead because I'm more scared of Ooze. Naturally he has 2 KotRs in his hand. Derp. He makes a board, I drop Moat, we stare at each other for a few turns, then he GSZs. I Mindcensor in response, but he has the Swords, so he goes and gets his Qasali, blowing up the Moat. He then double Mom pro-white (I had a rector out)s his pair of KotRs, and punches me for 16. Rusalka happens on Rector, which means Deed happens, which means his board dies. Then I GSZ out my Ooze, and grin as he looks at the number of creatures in graveyards. I Ooze-punch and grow a little, then I think Baneslayer joins the team, and he scoops them up shortly thereafter.

This puts me to 5-2, good for 13th out of 90 and my choice of a Plateau or Badlands. I opt for Plateau, because I owned 0 Plateaus vs 3 Badlands.

After 5 fucking Emrakul decks. I hate that card so much.

But yeah, talked a bit with Louis throughout the day, and he's hopefully going to get on here. I think Iggins is the only Nic Fit player I didn't have a chance to talk to throughout the course of the day, actually. So yeah, good conversation all around. I was really sad that I was X-2 instead of X-1, because the Top 8 was stacked in my favor. Like, I think that 12-post is the only deck that I was actually scared of in the top 8. I've never played against Manaless, and certainly not with Hollywood playing it, so it's hard to say what would have happened there. Everything else was RUG, Maverick, or tribal. Such is life, though =(

Also, biggest prop on the day is hands down to Ken Adams, who found me my 4th and final Korean Veteran Explorer, completing my set. Feels soooooooo good to have that done.

So yeah. Now that I've been typing for the past hour and a half, I'm going to stop. I'll probably make another post this afternoon to reply to everyone and provide thoughts to the posts that were made over the weekend. For now, though, I'm going to rest my arms a bit, lol.

[Claymore]

Missed the two Towers, I'm guessing 2?, but overall the deck looks swell. I was a bit tentative on the Rusalka, but looks like you got to use it for a game saving Rector sac. I'm interested to see if it is good enough to stick around. Diabolic Intent also looks like it needs to hop into my deck, especially since it can potentially grab an essential card when SnT is played.

I've been rolling with 4x GSZ since putting in Viridian Emissarys and have enjoyed the consistency.

Congrats on a winning record against Emrakul decks, haha

[Arianrhod]

Oops, yeah, forgot to put the Towers in. 2, as usual. My manabase hasn't changed in months, nor do I anticipate it changing.

[litenkatt]

@arianrhod

thanks for the report

I'm wondering, why are you not playing 1x karakas in main or sideboard atleast?

[Greenpoe]

Has anyone tried fitting Dragonmaster Outcast into Nic Fit? Or even Scute Mob? They would both go great with Ranger of Eos. Plus, you could abuse the controlling 5-6 lands trigger by using Maze of Ith or other lands that don't tap for mana, but still add to the count for these cards. Also with cheaper "bombs" (1 mana instead of 5 or 6) you could run more card advantage to get more of them out faster, or maybe some Explores. I know it's slow and dies to Deed, but a 5/5 every turn sounds tempting.

[Star|Scream]

@Qweerios:

I've been trying your list out online. It feels solid. I've made a few changes, primarily for budget reasons:

-1, karakas, -1 jace, -2 clique, -4 thoughtseize (sb)
+1 wasteland, +1 Liliana, +1 darkblast, +1 Life from the loam, +4 duress (sb)

And to reliably cast liliana off of explorer I went with 3 forests, 2 island, 2 swamp

I've been having trouble with goblins. Even with 4 deeds, they can refill with ringleader, and then a krenko plus a chieftan really hurt. They can use the extra mana as good as we can. Our best hope seems to be multiple deeds + grave titan, but gifts into something like titan, genesis, witness, deed is sometimes too slow.

Maybe an empath or some damnations in the sb?

[Arianrhod]

@arianrhod

thanks for the report

I'm wondering, why are you not playing 1x karakas in main or sideboard atleast?

It would replace a Plains were it to be maindeck, and I've found myself wanting the 3rd Plains more than I'd like to admit. I actually tried it with the 3rd Plains as a Karakas a while back and it screwed me over. Also, until just now putting Intent in the list, I've had no way to find it. I had to blind-draw it.

SB is a reasonable consideration, and again, it's something I've thought about. However, Sneak likes to board in Karakas of their own against white decks, and I'd rather they have a poorer manabase than the ability to strip mine me anyway. If they want to use a land drop to play Karakas instead of a Volc, I'm perfectly fine with that. If I'd have known I was going to play against 5 Emrakul decks, I would have loved to have it in my board, don't get me wrong. But for most "normal" matches / tournaments / pairings, I'd rather have slots in my board that do more things to more decks (like Humility).

[slikwilly]

A few words about the list. The Rusalka was decent, although my matchups weren't really those where it would have shined. Having a sac outlet available via GSZ felt really good to have. I'm still hopeful that we'll get something better somewhere in Ravnica, but if we don't, I'm okay with keeping the Rusalka around. The fact that it's a 1-drop and costs 1 to activate is relevant. Even if we get a 3- or 4-drop with a better activated ability, I'm not sure it's actually better than Rusalka due to the cmc.
Glad to know that works pretty well; I may give it a shot Thursday. Wish it didn't have G in the activation though. That effectively makes it 1GG a lot of the time and when you're just looking to sac an Explorer that really stinks.


Upon more testing, 2 Sakura-Tribes is definitely the right number. I'm not flooded with them, but I'm seeing them often enough to be content. They definitely increase the number of keepable hands, and their synergy with Nightmare is not to be underestimated. They're also more warm bodies for Therapy flashback, if you're playing vs combo.
I think I agree here. I ran two last week (only planned one, not sure how I ended up w/ 2) but it was nice having two against a few decks. A) ramping yourself w/o ramping your opponent is good. B) It's pretty awesome for blocking Batterskull.


I didn't miss the Maelstrom Pulse that I cut for the Rusalka. However, I also didn't play against matchups where the Pulse would have been good. The 2nd Elspeth is actually on the chopping block currently. While being able to jump things over Moat is amazing, I think that Sigarda might actually have obsolesced Elspeth. I can Vindicate or Deed away my Moat if I have to, but usually, Sigarda/Baneslayers/Yosei will get there in a Moat matchup. Sun Titan is still of relevance even if it can't attack, because I can loop it through Nightmare. If Elspeth gets cut, it'll be for the 4th Green Sun. Now that I have the Tribe Elders and the Rusalka, I want the 4th GSZ more. We'll see what happens.
Before you cut that last Elspeth, don't forget the Humility in your board. Jump is great w/ the Moat but less crucial for the reasons you observe than the +3/+3 is w/ the Humility.

[Arianrhod]

Before you cut that last Elspeth, don't forget the Humility in your board. Jump is great w/ the Moat but less crucial for the reasons you observe than the +3/+3 is w/ the Humility.

Granted. However, in my examinations and ruminations upon rebuilding my sideboard for this Vestal, and I resolved to myself that if I played against Maverick, I would NOT board in the Humility, as I had been doing. This enabled me to cut the Curse of Death's Hold, which really is a subpar card most of the time. It just combos with Humility really well. But yeah -- Humility is, in my mind, STRICTLY for the "big creature combo" matchups now -- Sneak, HyperGen, Reanimator, Hulk combo, or anything else trying to do arbitrarily stupid things with arbitrarily huge creatures. Elspeth doesn't matter in those matchups. Your 1/1s are more plentiful and not legendary, as well as being, you know, castable.

Also, /wave Tao. I see you creeping in here! Are you still playing the deck / what are your thoughts on it these days?

[Opaco]

A lurker humble request:

¿Could (should) this thread be split into different threads for each of the different versions (Scapeshift, Rector, U splash...)?

At this point the thread doesn't feel like the discussion of different splashes/endpoint packages for the same deck (like for example Goblin splashes/packages), but different decks evolved from the same zenith-explorer base (like ANT, TES and DDFT are treated as different decks despite their things in common); which sometimes makes difficult to keep track as discussion shifts to one version or other.

[Qweerios]

@Star Scream,

I don't think more sweepers is the answer to goblins. I haven't tested too much that MU but I would assume that something like Curse of Death's Hold or Engineered Plague would be more appropriate in dealing with Ringleaders renewable swarms.

[caggii]

@arianrhod not sure how I feel about the Timmy /Johnny deck patnode calls me combo muppet. After reading your report I do remember playing you with reanimator .

So I have been messing around with the 4 color version I splash u for gifts.
I usually end up making gifts piles that let me lock with yosei and nightmare something like witness Titan nightmare yosei just wanted to get an opinion if you think that's too greedy.

[Kich867]

Has anyone tried fitting Dragonmaster Outcast into Nic Fit? Or even Scute Mob? They would both go great with Ranger of Eos. Plus, you could abuse the controlling 5-6 lands trigger by using Maze of Ith or other lands that don't tap for mana, but still add to the count for these cards. Also with cheaper "bombs" (1 mana instead of 5 or 6) you could run more card advantage to get more of them out faster, or maybe some Explores. I know it's slow and dies to Deed, but a 5/5 every turn sounds tempting.

Tried it, it's really bad. At it's core, the thing is a 1/1 for 1 that dies -very- quickly as soon as the realize that you're invested in it. I got blown out by almost every deck that runs removal, which is most of them. I was never able to get a proc out of him.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Updated GBu Magosi Nice Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Intuition
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island

btw what is the best bet for getting a homebrew junkie and a "budget" player who buys cards in bulk often to help playtest against this build with strong Legacy decks or proxy decks?