Lotus Vale

[Offler]

Lotus Vale
I have never seen so much confusion on Gatherer over single card

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=4593

So I decided to make this thread.

1. Original text on card is obsolete. Oracle/gatherer text is more accurate.

2. The actual effect of sacrificing lands is not Trigerred ability, but replacement effect, which replaces playing a land. Very unusual.

Because there is no way how to react on playing a land there is no way how to react on this specific replacement effect. Therefore it cannot be Stifled, or otherwise countered.

3. Once land is sacrificed it cannot be tapped anymore.
4. If you tap a land you cannot sacrifice it to Lotus Vale anymore because its not untapped as the effect requires.


For me it means that if someone promptly casts Vindicate on the "Enter the battlefield" effect I can say that he just cannot do that at that time.

[Tammit67]

1) You attempt to play lotus vale
2) You decide to pay the 'cost of entry' for it to come into play or not (sacrifice two untapped lands)
3) If you did sacrifice two lands, you get lotus vale. If you didn't it NEVER enters play
4) Once that sequence is done, then and only then can it be tapped for mana or become the target for vindicate (as according to the rules for priority and what have you)

This card functions as Mox diamond now does, except in land form. It is a much more common card, so perhaps watching rulings for that will help you understand.

To clarify there is no opportunity for you to tap it for mana or for your opponent to vindicate it between you announcement of Lotus vale and you sacrificing lands/putting vale to the graveyard.

[Offler]

I have also re-checked Coral atoll

The rulings in Gatherer are here clear. This is normal "Enters battlefield" ability and not a replacement effect any longer. This ability can be stifled.

[(nameless one)]

Can you sacrifice City of Traitors as one of your lands to Lotus Vale (or Scorched Ruins)?

[Offler]

10/4/2004 City of Traitors does not trigger on lands that are put onto the battlefield without playing them.

hmm... Lotus vale says:

If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

If this replacement effect really replaces playing a land then the city of traitors can be sacrificed, if its untapped of course.

[Malchar]

Can you sacrifice City of Traitors as one of your lands to Lotus Vale (or Scorched Ruins)?

You can regardless of the rule offler quoted. City of Traitors simply has a triggered ability which goes on the stack after the other land has come into play. It triggers as soon as you play the other land, but it can't even go on the stack until after the vale's ability is finished resolving.

[luma]

City of Traitors will trigger when you play Lotus Vale, regardless of whether you chose to sacrifice two untapped lands or not. In either case, you took the action of playing a land and that's what City of Traitors cares about. It doesn't matter that a replacement effect turns the action into something else.