On Foreign Cards

[AngryTroll]

Hypothetical: Your opponent sits down, you shuffle up, and he plays a foreign but iconic land (like a foreign black-bordered Underground Sea), and then starts casting recognizable but foreign cards (like a foreign Ponder, Preordain, etc). What do you do?

Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS, and hope that I win the match because my opponent is a huge douche. Sure, I know what Brainstorm does, but Preordain? That card seems extremely limited eternal play. Ok, Preordain, sure, how about Ill-Gotten Gains? Does Diminishing Returns shuffle graveyards and hands into your deck, or only one or the other or neither? What about Coralhelm Commander, half of the Elves deck, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur?

It's one thing to be familiar with all of the decks in Legacy, how they work, and their key cards. It's quite another thing to bet the match that you have a perfect memory of the Oracle wording of every card in an opponent's deck when all you get is art, cost, and power/toughness. (Oh, and if an opponent plays an altered-art card in a foreign language, I'll first comment on how cool it is, and then call a Judge).

I understand running a deck with black-bordered duals (so that there are no white-bordered cards in the deck), but a 75-card foreign deck really Angers me. Am I being unreasonable? Do other people feel this way?

[puppektion]

No, I think you're being unreasonable. If you feel the need to ask a judge for oracle wording on *everything*, you're wasting your time, wasting your opponent's time and wasting the judge's time. If you end up getting an extension because of your own ass-hattery, you're wasting everyone's time at the tournament. And you say he's being a douche?

Angry is one thing. I can understand a bit of frustration, maybe. But acting like that would be completely unreasonable.

[AngryTroll]

No, I think you're being unreasonable. If you feel the need to ask a judge for oracle wording on *everything*, you're wasting your time, wasting your opponent's time and wasting the judge's time. If you end up getting an extension because of your own ass-hattery, you're wasting everyone's time at the tournament. And you say he's being a douche?

Angry is one thing. I can understand a bit of frustration, maybe. But acting like that would be completely unreasonable.

If your opponent plays an archetype like Elves, are you confident that you know the full Oracle wording for every single card he plays? Of course, these cards see play in no other archetypes besides Elves!. The same can be said for Mud and modern Affinity lists. Mistaking Signal Pest and Memnite, for example, could easily lose you the game, but both are in the new frame and from relatively recent sets. The same is true for many of the 1cc elves in Elves!, except the iconic ones like Llanowar Elves.

[Tammit67]

Man I hope I never play you in a tournament.

[AngryTroll]

I just find it incredibly obnoxious when my opponent sits down with 75 cards that he knows I cannot read. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Sure, I'll recognize the dual lands and most cards like Brainstorm, Force of Will, Counterbalance, Top, Goyf, Tombstalker, etc. But the cards that only see play in an archetype like Enchantress, Lands, Elves!, new Mud Lists, etc. are simple obnoxious. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that newer players are even more frustrated than I am, and older players are slightly less frustrated.

[puppektion]

If your opponent plays an archetype like Elves, are you confident that you know the full Oracle wording for every single card he plays? Of course, these cards see play in no other archetypes besides Elves!. The same can be said for Mud and modern Affinity lists. Mistaking Signal Pest and Memnite, for example, could easily lose you the game, but both are in the new frame and from relatively recent sets. The same is true for many of the 1cc elves in Elves!, except the iconic ones like Llanowar Elves.

I'd say I'm 99% confident about most cards that are going to see play, just off image, casting cost, P/T. If I'm stumped on and the english name that I'd ask my opponent for didn't trigger anything, yeah, I'd call the judge, but doing that for *every card* is ridiculous.

And seriously? If you can't tell something like Signal Pest from Memnite, or Quirion Ranger from Birchlore Rangers, where have you been? Maybe it's just me, but it's *really* not that hard to distinguish between them.

I see your post in the altered art thread may have triggered this. Really? Altered tarmogoyfs? If you can't distinguish an altered-art goyf from Spellwilde Ouphe or Thornweald Archer (the only other future-shifted green creatures at CMC 2, printed at uncommon and common respectively), there might be an issue :P

[AngryTroll]

I see your post in the altered art thread may have triggered this. Really? Altered tarmogoyfs? If you can't distinguish an altered-art goyf from Spellwilde Ouphe or Thornweald Archer (the only other future-shifted green creatures at CMC 2, printed at uncommon and common respectively), there might be an issue :P

You are entirely correct about those particular Tarmogoyfs (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10651-The-Awesome-Altered-Card-Art-Thread&p=553659&viewfull=1#post553659), but what do you do when the altered card is something less iconic in Legacy? A casting cost of :g: and 1/1 power/toughness tells you nothing when you play elves. Sure, it's a Noble Hierarch when you play Bant and you recognize it's art...but what about a foreign blue spell that costs :u: with anime art and Asian text? It tells you nothing.

Although I believe that I can identify almost every single legacy playable card by it's art, I'm not willing to bet a match on it. I'm certainly not willing to bet a match on it when it is round 5, I'm tired, and my opponent plays a Preordain. Or possibly a Serum Visions. Or was it a Portent? Sure, all of those cards have distinctive art, but none of them see mainstream play, they all do similar things, and they are all different.

I recall Kai Budde once got a game loss for confusing two cards with similar art (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/timlimited/12867_SCG_Daily_8212_Time_Spiral_Through_the_Lens_of_its_Forebears_5.html). Kai Budde is undoubtedly a better player than I am, and if he screwed that up with cards in his own language in his own deck, it is perfectly reasonable for me to worry about making game-losing mistakes against cards that I cannot read. Can any judge fault me for this? Can any other players? Can my opponent, with his 75-card unreadable deck?

[Malchar]

Sure, I'll recognize the dual lands and most cards like Brainstorm, Force of Will, Counterbalance, Top, Goyf, Tombstalker, etc.


Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS

Somewhat of a contradiction here. Also, why are you playing legacy if you haven't memorized every card?

[Gambit]

Not everyone speaks English, not all cards are English. Many old cards that are written in English might as well be a different language due to the changes in oracle text. Call a judge if you want. Your opponent isn't the douche, you are.

[Team America]

if you play against deck and not know what many the cards are then you should be happy you playing tier 2 or tier 3 deck and probably will win. agree with what everyone else said not even a small deal.

[AngryTroll]

Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS

Now, this might be douche-y, but in my example I cited playing against a deck like Storm. If I'm playing the mirror match, I doubt a judge would take my side if I ask for the Oracle wording of a card I'm playing with recognizable art. A little bit of hyperbole obviously went too far here.

However, if I'm playing Team America against Enchantress or Lands, there is a very good chance that no non-land cards in our decks will overlap, and a pretty good chance that no other archetype uses any of those cards. Against Storm, many of the cards will be obvious, but some may not be.

As I said (but then contradicted with hyperbole) in my opening post, I wouldn't call for a judge when my opponent cast Brainstorm. But all of those playable-in-specific-decks cards that see no Legacy play besides that archetype are very frustrating to play against.


By a similar extension...have you ever tried to play EDH against a deck that's been "pimped out" in a foreign language?

[Aggro_zombies]

Damn it, this here's AMURICA, and in AMURICA, we speak ENGLISH.

AMURICA: love it or leave it.

Oh wait, foreign cards. I saw "foreign" and thought this thread was about Mexicans and liberals.

I fail to see how calling a judge frequently makes you any better than the opponent; in most cases, it will probably annoy the hell out of the judge, and "unsportsmanlike conduct" is a violation of tournament rules. It's also what you're proposing. Now, if there's a fringe card whose text you legitimately don't know, calling a judge is fine, but it's another to get back at your opponent by calling for an Oracle wording every time he passes priority. And how many of those players have Asian'd out their decks because they're scummy enough to try to get an edge by hoping their opponents haven't been playing Legacy very long, and how many of them think the script looks cool and Asian cards are pimp? Even in the former case, nickel and diming someone with judge calls is just getting revenge on them for doing something you dislike, which hardly makes you the better human being; in the latter case, it makes you come off as spiteful and jealous.

tl;dr keep your stewing to yourself/the internet and don't try to get back at the other guy because he's got them funny foreign words on his cardboard.

[TheAardvark]

If your opponent plays an archetype like Elves, are you confident that you know the full Oracle wording for every single card he plays?

This can be an issue with English cards as well as foreign cards. Card text and Oracle text don't always coincide at all.

In addition, if you're going to attempt to monopolize any judge's time like that, you're going to be the one penalized. Sure, asking for Oracle text on a couple of cards is reasonable, but once you start asking for every card your opponent plays, they're going to realize you're either fishing or just being a dick, and either way they will tell you to give it a rest.

[Koby]

True story: nobody believes that Elvish Spirit Guide is now an Elf Spirit.

The more you know...

[dahcmai]

So what's the policy on someone who actually does have a deck full of virtually unknown and obscure cards in a language the opponent doesn't know? It may seem bad, but I am notorious for playing with crap to see how far I can get for fun. I don't use foreign stuff, but if I did, it would be one hell of a confusing match. You'd practically have to have a judge sitting there to explain some of those dumb decks I have and I bet he'd have to ask what some of them are.

[Whippoorwill]

This thread makes me want to play a Foreign Licid deck. :(

If you called a judge on me asking for Oracle text on every foreign card (including ones you know) I'd report you to the same judge for stalling. Not knowing things like Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains is fine, but Coralhelm Commander? Unless you just started playing Legacy there's no excuse not to know that one since its played in almost every Fish deck.

There's also things like this:


True story: nobody believes that Elvish Spirit Guide is now an Elf Spirit.

The more you know...

Not even the English version matters when there's oracle changes like the above. If I had the English version of Waterfront Bouncer, would you know it was a Merfolk just by looking at it?

[keys]

Not even the English version matters when there's oracle changes like the above. If I had the English version of Waterfront Bouncer, would you know it was a Merfolk just by looking at it?

It's a bouncer that's a bouncer. Get it? And obviously it's a merfolk because it's at the waterfront.

[alphacat]

Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS, and hope that I win the match because my opponent is a huge douche.

Basically, all you will accomplish is to piss the head judge off, and guess what, you will be getting no easy wins.

Btw, in this scenario, you're the douche. You're talking as if the deck were in English, you'd have to ask to read every one of your opponent's cards. How about just ask for the oracle text of the few cards you don't know, instead of bugging a judge all the time? Grow the hell up please.

[Phoenix Ignition]

So are all non-english speakers "huge douches" or just the ones that play magic?

Are you actually trolling here (as your name suggests) or are you that stereotypical a Texan?

[r3dd09]

Phoenix Ignition got serious with the last part.

I for one and new to the legacy portion, but when i enter a legacy tourney against some people playing rogue decks, foreign or not. I can usually tell what a card is by the set, pic, and cost. even if it's a test of endurance that's foreign and been scribbled on.

[kiblast]

Could'nt you just take it easy and call a judge only for really obscure cards (or very old ones for which the oracle has changed 16 times through the years) or foreign version of obscure cards? I mean, you should not need a policy about opponent playing foreign cards. Unless you are an idiot, or you started playing legacy 3 days ago. Just call the judge only for very controversial situations.
Also, remember that the judge is not your personal tutor in the world of Mtg, and might get upset for wasting his time finding every damn oracle text for a player who clearly knows the card and only wants to troll.

[godryk]

This thread really reminds me of these little kids that only play with spanish cards and don't believe what you say your powerful english cards do...

[Digital Devil]

I dislike all foreign cards I can't recognize at first glance - I played against an all-korean Glimpse Elves deck last week, and that wasn't a problem, since I could spot each card by its illustration - then my opponent played an artworked 1/1 for :g: - it could just have been anything that didn't add mana. How do I know whether it's Quirion Ranger or Wirewood Symbiote? The judge had to surf the net searching for both korean Ranger and Symbiote, only to compare the lines of text. I mean, if you want to play foreign, can't you just play 'em WITHOUT altering the picture, too?

[Whippoorwill]

I dislike all foreign cards I can't recognize at first glance - I played against an all-korean Glimpse Elves deck last week, and that wasn't a problem, since I could spot each card by its illustration - then my opponent played an artworked 1/1 for :g: - it could just have been anything that didn't add mana. How do I know whether it's Quirion Ranger or Wirewood Symbiote? The judge had to surf the net searching for both korean Ranger and Symbiote, only to compare the lines of text. I mean, if you want to play foreign, can't you just play 'em WITHOUT altering the picture, too?

I bet that poor judge is still trying to find the Korean Symbiote.

I think I found a solution to this problem:

Just play Counterbalance and counter anything that isn't English no matter what it does.

[mort-]

I play an (almost) complete asia ANT. I don't know what your opponents are doing, but I announce my spells - and if someone doesn't know what the card does, I will explain it to him.
Well.. if he doesn't believe me, it's his right to call a judge, but why the fuck should I be stupid enough to lie to him? He might as well know the card and get back to me by saying "nope, it doesn't do what you said it would - juuuuuuudge".

[Tha Gunslinga]

Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS

Wow, your username is an apt one.

[Julian23]

Really, where's the problem? You mention that you don't recall the Oracle text of a lot of cards. So just go ahead and call the judge for it. Problem solved.

[workingdude]

I don't see what the argument is in this thread. If you legitimately don't remember exactly what the card does or are legitimately confused on which card is played due to unfamiliarity or obscured art, call a judge. It's your right to know how each card functions and what each card being played is. I remember some story on the mothership that someone forgot in a Vintage tournament the third, less-known ability of Inkwell Leviathan. The opponent was playing a pimped Japanese version of it, and everyone knows that it has shroud and islandwalk, but when the guy went to chump block it, he lost the game.

I'd think that calling a judge just to piss off your opponent would be grounds for a warning for stalling and whatnot.

[Julian23]

One can easily tell from the opening post that this guy just wants to annoy his opponent by wasting time. I'm quite sure there's a penality for calling for the Oracle text for a card you actually 100% know what it does.
cdr might be able to tell us how a judge would handle such behavior.

[AngryTroll]

One can easily tell from the opening post that this guy just wants to annoy his opponent by wasting time. I'm quite sure there's a penality for calling for the Oracle text for a card you actually 100% know what it does.
cdr might be able to tell us how a judge would handle such behavior.

I believe I was clear with my examples in the opening post that I wouldn't call a judge for obvious cards, like Brainstorm, Force, Goyf, etc. I already said that asking for the Oracle of EVERY SINGLE CARD was hyperbole. But against a deck like Storm, if I'm playing against an opponent with a deck in English, I'll still probably read about 50% of his cards the first time I see them to make sure I have them remembered exactly right.

"EVERY SINGLE CARD" was clearly too much exaggeration. I'm sorry that wasn't more clear. "All cards I'd want to read in English to make sure I have them exactly right" isn't exaggeration, and that might be half of the cards in a Storm deck, all of the cards in Enchantress or Lands, or just one card in Merfolk or Team America or something.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

And, obviously, if I'm playing someone from a foreign country, I can't be grumpy that his deck is in another language.

[Julian23]

So basically you're doing what everyone does. What's the point? Looking for other players who dislike having to ask for Oracle texts all the time?

[lordofthepit]

I don't think that's unreasonable.

And, obviously, if I'm playing someone from a foreign country, I can't be grumpy that his deck is in another language.

I agree with everything you said after you backed off the strong wording of the original post.

There was an SCG top 8 last year where someone lost because his opponent played a Japanese Inkwell Leviathan, and he described it as a 7/11 islandwalker with shroud. I believe he didn't mention it was also a trampler, and he's not obligated his opponent with provide complete information when asked. This led to some poor combat decisions (not holding back enough creatures to block), and eventually, lethal damage.

I'm not a fan of foreign cards, except I understand that 1) it's necessary to develop the game in foreign countries and 2) it's sometimes cheaper than English alternatives. Many players consider them "pimp", and while I respect their personal preferences, I find those cards distasteful (except in those two cases above). I don't ever like losing a game because I didn't carefully read what a card does, so I'll proceed carefully when someone plays a card against me (English or not) that I'm not 100% sure about; when you combine that with my personal dislike of foreign cards, you can expect I'll be even more careful in these situations.

There are so many cards in Legacy, and each of them have subtleties, that you cannot reasonably expect your opponent to know the Oracle text EXACTLY. There's the case of the Inkwell Leviathan above. Just off the top of my head, I've seen my opponents--all of whom frequently play Legacy--personally miss the following interactions against me (or in a game that I'm watching), despite the fact that the cards were in English. They'd be well-served to read the cards more carefully (and possibly get an Oracle text for foreign/errated cards) more frequently than they do:
- Does Exhume target the creature to be returned?
- Can Goblin Welder be used to take out your opponent's artifacts?
- Does Merrow Reejery's triggered ability works on casting of a Merfolk spell, or when it comes into play? How does it interact with Vialing a creature in? How does Silvergill Adept?
- How about Glimpse of Nature and Nettle Sentinel (with casting their corresponding spells)? What kind of spells trigger in their cases?
- What is the cost and what is the effect for Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote's abilities? Is it used only on your own turn?
- Can I put in a Jace off Show and Tell?
- Will Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Ratchet Bomb, or Pernicious Deed hit my artifact lands?
- Does Snuff Out require a swamp to play for free? Does it hit nonblack creature, or nonblack/nonartifact?
- Does Knight of the Reliquary get counters for lands in the graveyard, or is it a static bonus?
- Do you lose life for Reanimate/Thoughtseize on playing the spell, or on its resolution? How do they interact with Platinum Emperion (especially the former, where you better know the order of Reanimate's effects)?
- How does Ensnaring Bridge interact with Exalted? (to be fair, this isn't 100% answered by RTFC if you're not completely confident about combat rules)
- What basic types give Wild Nacatl a bonus?
- Does Gaddock Teeg restrict noncreature spells or noncreature cards from being played? (i.e. how does it interact with split cards?)
- Does City of Brass deal damage as a trigger, or as part of its mana ability?

These are all questions that a seasoned Legacy player knows the answer to 99.99% of the time, but I caught other players "forgetting" at the wrong times (and I'm sure I've forgotten interactions myself but would obviously still be oblivious to it). If you're not 100% sure you've memorized the Oracle text of every single card on the board, plus possibly other cards that your opponent may play later (which you need to prepare a strategy around), then I advise you to check with a judge.

You don't want to be the guy facing a Japanese Inkwell Leviathan with 6 life left, counting on a Goblin Lackey to keep you alive for the alpha strike next turn.

[Nidd]

So, OP is saying that he calls the judge whenever his opponent plays a card in a language that is not the OP's mothertongue?

Dude, that's absolutely retarded. But if that's the way you think, I'm happy you don't live in Europe - all the foreign cards you might see at GPs could make your head explode.

[Tammit67]

You don't want to be the guy facing a Japanese Inkwell Leviathan with 6 life left, counting on a Goblin Lackey to keep you alive for the alpha strike next turn.

It is one thing not wanting to lose because no one remember's trample on Inkwell. It is another to stall the game because your opponent is playing perfectly legal cards. (A la Saito not knowing what Jace did in Columbus).

Regardless of the OP's actual position, he presented it very spitefully and seemingly doing it from a "Fuck you" standpoint, which is NOT legal.

[AngryTroll]

I agree with everything you said after you backed off the strong wording of the original post.

...

I'm not a fan of foreign cards, except I understand that 1) it's necessary to develop the game in foreign countries and 2) it's sometimes cheaper than English alternatives. Many players consider them "pimp", and while I respect their personal preferences, I find those cards distasteful (except in those two cases above). I don't ever like losing a game because I didn't carefully read what a card does, so I'll proceed carefully when someone plays a card against me (English or not) that I'm not 100% sure about; when you combine that with my personal dislike of foreign cards, you can expect I'll be even more careful in these situations.

There are so many cards in Legacy, and each of them have subtleties, that you cannot reasonably expect your opponent to know the Oracle text EXACTLY. There's the case of the Inkwell Leviathan above. Just off the top of my head, I've seen my opponents--all of whom frequently play Legacy--personally miss the following interactions against me (or in a game that I'm watching), despite the fact that the cards were in English. They'd be well-served to read the cards more carefully (and possibly get an Oracle text for foreign/errated cards) more frequently than they do:
(many great examples)

This is exactly what I meant. I just find it frustrating when I cannot read my opponents cards, and I cannot help but feel that my opponent is trying to get an edge on me by playing a foreign deck (assuming they just did it for pimpness, not because they're from another country or there was a valid price difference).

I should have been less exasperated in the opening post, but I'm surprised so few other people are annoyed by foreign decks.

[lordofthepit]

I should have been less exasperated in the opening post, but I'm surprised so few other people are annoyed by foreign decks.


I'm usually a pretty calm guy when it comes to Magic; I certainly don't flip out at people, rage quit/flip the table, blame everything on manascrew/flood, etc. I like to talk to my opponents throughout the game, and I'll graciously extend my hand when I lose. There are relatively few things that bug me.

I will admit foreign decks annoy me as well (unless I'm actually playing a foreigner who recently moved), but usually not enough to be perceptible. It's fine if you personally prefer playing with Chinese/Japanese/Spanish/Italian/whatever. I can actually read some of those languages, and while I respect that you might prefer foreign cards, I personally don't. It's the same way that I think it's fine if you liked the Jonas Brothers even though I think they're terrible; you have the right to prefer whatever you want. :tongue:

But occasionally, a combination of several other things (i.e. opponent being rude) combined with staring across from the table from a wall of text will get me a little bit chippy. Especially if I get the sense that my opponent is intentionally playing foreign cards to get an advantage on me (by my inability to read them). In that case, I might strongly consider having an Oracle text of any card for which I'm not 100% certain of every single word.

[anonymos]

You guys should see my Enchantress deck.

The forest and plains art match. :D

[Finn]

I am with Angry Troll here. I have played guys that have foreign cards because they picked them up in a foreign country. That makes perfect sense to me. But I have also played the fellow who does exactly what AT is talking about. You are a fool if you don't think there are players out there who do this intentionally. He is gaining an advantage on you by playing cards that he is intimately familiar with and that you have to expend effort to see the text for. Call the judge every time he plays anything you are not TOTALLY comfortable with. If the judges are at all intelligent they will recignize what your opponent has gotten himself into and side with you when they decide who to hate.

[ramanujan]

As many have said here, call a judge when you are in question of a card. It would not be wise to make an enemy of a judge for calling for every card because you are not a fan of foreign cards. For what it is worth, I believe that when asked what a card does, a player can omit detail but not state false detail.

The example in an above post with a player omitting the ability of trample could be done purposefully for an advantage without fear of consequence. However, stating that a creature has first strike when it does not would be grounds for discipline.

I think that getting upset at another player for playing foreign cards is ludicrous. They are perfectly legal to play and most people include them because they enjoy playing with foreign cards. I have never met a single person who plsys foreign cards because they cannot be read by an opponent. I have also never seen someone purposefully deceive an opponent when describing a card, whether in a legitimate manner through selective omission or by cheating.

[TsumiBand]

The game doesn't take place on the artwork, it takes place on the text underneath the artwork.

This whole thing is predicated on the notion that everyone recognizes and understands on demand the function of 13000 cards based solely on their pictures. If you happen to live in a part of the world where no proxies are allowed and you're surrounded by foreign countries, I have nothing but sympathy for you.

Me, I live in the heartland of Amurrcah, where for some reason the only people who buy non-English cards and bring them to tournaments are almost entirely snobs.

So wait, non-American players; let's say you DO live in an area where people come in regularly with a deck of Magic cards which are not, by necessity, in your native tongue. What's the expectation of the player rocking the cards, then? Is there like an "approved language" for the tournament so that it's not some French dude vs. a German dude and they're both not only playing cards which they only recognize by picture, but speaking in terms which may not be readily understood by their opponent? How do those matches play out?

[JACO]

Hypothetical: Your opponent sits down, you shuffle up, and he plays a foreign but iconic land (like a foreign black-bordered Underground Sea), and then starts casting recognizable but foreign cards (like a foreign Ponder, Preordain, etc). What do you do?

Personally, I'd call a judge, ask for an Oracle wording on EVERY SINGLE SPELL MY OPPONENT PLAYS, and hope that I win the match because my opponent is a huge douche. ...Do other people feel this way?No. If you ask the judge for Oracle text on every single spell they play you're probably going to be looked at by the judge as fishing or possibly slow play, and you'll probably be looked at by every player as a giant pussy. Players around the world play Magic, and the game is printed in many different languages.

And if you have to ask for the Oracle text on Preordain you were probably going to get blown out anyway.

[Sloshthedark]

Calling Judge for every card is a bit too much and I understand the frustration I lost few times mis-interpreting what the card exactly does some time ago (reejery, few elves, Bridge from below), and I still do, even the card is in english it still can have important oracle, which you won't know, ask for, until you lose to it... do you know ho Goblin Welder works if you haven't played it?

Bonus - How many of you actually DO know what's written on italian Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale? - except you just pay 1, yeah.. and how does it interact with english Magus of the Tabernacle ; )

If I wanted to be a douche so many people would lose to this... on the other hand, they can still tap out with the Elspeth Emblem ; )

[perm]

I agree, having your cards unreadable is just plain being a ******. I am entitled to know what a card does, I don't care how uber fatleet you are with your cards, I am at tournament.

[Julian23]

And if you have to ask for the Oracle text on Preordain you were probably going to get blown out anyway.

Made my day! :-) On a related note: I was playing in a huge Vintage tournamet last year. In one of the early rounds my opponent (playing full-powered Belcher) interrupted me when I cast BRAINSTORM and asked me what it does. Really. Motherfucking Brainstorm. He also thought Academy tapped for the amount of lands I had in play. But hell, at least he was playing with his own (I asked him) Power 9.

[Picc]

Gotta give it to the troll on this one (though he could have said it better). I've been playing a while and for the most part I know what stuff does but there are still frequently times when I want to read a card during a match (if only to make sure I understand it correctly or that my opponent is playing it right). I'm much less apt to do that if I've already had ask every other card.

Now that said I think at this point in magic’s history it’s a necessary evil. Personally if I'm ever playing a non-English or heavily altered card in a tournament I make sure to have a clean English copy on hand too.

[betterthenandrew]

Is this real? People bitching about foreign cards is like people bitching about good cards, except more rediculous. Like seriously, if you are going to lose against a deck with tarmogoyf written in squiggles you are also going to lose to in english, or in sharpie written on the back of some dudes draft deck. It doesn't matter.

I for one like my fancy cards, I'm from the states and I'm living in south america. I play primarily lands and have a mix of english and japanese cards (plus fbb duals, but if you don't know those, well, um, lol) and occasionaly people don't know my cards do exactly. So you know what they do? They ask a judge! Some times I don't understand exactly how a card works, english or otherwise, and you know what I do? I ask a judge! Seriously folks, don't be a dick, and remember the judges are always tgere to help.

Remember folks- we shouldn't play magic to beat people, we should play magic to beat people while looking good.

[Shimi]

@Little Troll:
I live in BRAZIL(yes, that country with 5 football world's championship cups if don't know and think USA is the center of universe) and many of my cards are PORTUGUESE so I'm a douche bag with foreigned cards.I would be glad to just laught at your actions and see you getting DQ'ed for really being a douche bag.

PS:In 15 or 20 years it will be you to be playing foreigned cards cause your opponents will be playing chinese or indian cards and speaking a language you really can't understand.

[Zamussels]

I played a Dredge opponent at the GP, and he had the foreign special, in all different languages. Now, I'm sort of familiar with how the deck operates, but it's really tricky to beat with Team America, figure out what to Stifle, etc. Also I always have this problem against Dredge where my opponent takes tons of time dredging and doing stuff, then if I take any time at all thinking on my turn the round will go to time. I really hate playing against the deck, never have enough SB cards to fight it, and most guys playing it seem to be rude and hurrying everything, and it's hard to watch if they're dredging the right amount of cards and keep track of their graveyard and hand.

So long story short, the guy forgot to put zombie tokens in play after a Cabal Therapy. I picked up his graveyard, tried to read the Bridges and couldn't figure out if it said 'may' or not in german. Didn't want to call a judge to get oracle so he could put the tokens in play if it was a mandatory trigger, cause I would be giving him a huge advantage pointing out his mistakes in case it was a may trigger, so I didn't say anything. The following turn he figured out he forgot his tokens and said he forgot and it was too late so I assumed it was a may trigger. Just checked it out and it wasn't. So if he hadn't been playing the foreign special I would have had to correct him and he would have gotten those tokens.

[Julian23]

Didn't want to call a judge to get oracle so he could put the tokens in play if it was a mandatory trigger

Do you realize that knowing your opponent screwed up and not reminding him of mandatory triggers will get you DQ'ed wo/ prize for Cheating? I'm sure a similar punishment is appropiate/exists in case you're wondering whether it's a mandatory trigger or not. Brian Kibbler did the same thing at the most recent PT he won and it was widely discussed afterwards.

[Richard Cheese]

It's against the rules to check Oracle wording using a smartphone correct? Maybe that should change, so long as both players can easily see what's on the screen and it gets put away after that. I only have a few foreign cards, but I'd have no problem with someone asking for the wording on them. Then again, I go to tournaments to play a game and enjoy myself, not to be a cock and try to get wins off technicalities.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's against the rules to check Oracle wording using a smartphone correct? Maybe that should change, so long as both players can easily see what's on the screen and it gets put away after that. I only have a few foreign cards, but I'd have no problem with someone asking for the wording on them. Then again, I go to tournaments to play a game and enjoy myself, not to be a cock and try to get wins off technicalities.
If there's one set of cards (or more than one) in your deck in another language, it's probably easy enough to make something that looks like Gatherer but displays BS-but-realistic-sounding "Oracle" text. I mean, yeah, it's a lot of hoops to jump through, but if you're using foreign cards to bamboozle opponents in the first place you're probably kind of shady anyway.

[Richard Cheese]

If there's one set of cards (or more than one) in your deck in another language, it's probably easy enough to make something that looks like Gatherer but displays BS-but-realistic-sounding "Oracle" text. I mean, yeah, it's a lot of hoops to jump through, but if you're using foreign cards to bamboozle opponents in the first place you're probably kind of shady anyway.

That is just DHS-level ridiculous.

[Zamussels]

Do you realize that knowing your opponent screwed up and not reminding him of mandatory triggers will get you DQ'ed wo/ prize for Cheating? I'm sure a similar punishment is appropiate/exists in case you're wondering whether it's a mandatory trigger or not. Brian Kibbler did the same thing at the most recent PT he won and it was widely discussed afterwards.

I didn't know if he screwed up or not, I couldn't read the card. I'm not gonna play his Dredge deck for him and remind him of every single trigger when I can't read any of the stupid cards. What I'm going to do is try to beat him without going to time and try to figure out what the hell he's doing. I guess next time I should be the bigger jackass, get a judge to watch the entire match and ask for oracle on every card that hits the graveyard, ask for time extensions and get the judge to watch for slow play? Cause if I ask for oracle on just one card once in a while I'm telegraphing what I have in my hand. I actually want to win games once in a while.

[Sims]

I didn't know if he screwed up or not, I couldn't read the card. I'm not gonna play his Dredge deck for him and remind him of every single trigger when I can't read any of the stupid cards. What I'm going to do is try to beat him without going to time and try to figure out what the hell he's doing. I guess next time I should be the bigger jackass, get a judge to watch the entire match and ask for oracle on every card that hits the graveyard, ask for time extensions and get the judge to watch for slow play? Cause if I ask for oracle on just one card once in a while I'm telegraphing what I have in my hand. I actually want to win games once in a while.

So you're advocating the fact that you essentially cheated and didn't want to call the judge for oracle becuase you didn't want to lose. Great example of doing whatever it takes to win, I suppose. Good job.

Also good job generalizing every dredge player as a slow player. I'm sure every player that picks up that deck is slow at first until they get used to the decisions inherent in playing the deck. Oh wait, that's any deck.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Do you realize that knowing your opponent screwed up and not reminding him of mandatory triggers will get you DQ'ed wo/ prize for Cheating? I'm sure a similar punishment is appropriate/exists in case you're wondering whether it's a mandatory trigger or not. Brian Kibbler did the same thing at the most recent PT he won and it was widely discussed afterwards.

You are not required to make sure your opponent sees optional triggers. You don't have to remind them about tabernacle or make sure they put a counter on vial, that would be ridiculous.

[Sims]

You are not required to make sure your opponent sees optional triggers. You don't have to remind them about tabernacle or make sure they put a counter on vial, that would be ridiculous.

That's not the situation at hand, however.

The person in question realized there was a bridge trigger but was unsure if it was mandatory or not. It is a mandatory trigger, not a may trigger.

What Julian means here is, if a judge was called after the fact and you said to the judge "i know there was a trigger but I am was unsure if it was a mandatory or may trigger" that there would still be a penalty though perhaps not as severe as a DQ for cheating.

You are correct, having to remind your opponent about every may trigger would be ridiculous. But not calling a judge to clear something up or letting your opponent miss a mandatory trigger and not pointing it out to gain an advantage is cheating.

[Zamussels]

So you're advocating the fact that you essentially cheated and didn't want to call the judge for oracle becuase you didn't want to lose. Great example of doing whatever it takes to win, I suppose. Good job.

Also good job generalizing every dredge player as a slow player. I'm sure every player that picks up that deck is slow at first until they get used to the decisions inherent in playing the deck. Oh wait, that's any deck.

If everyone here would have called a judge to check oracle on a card to check if the opponent might have missed a mandatory trigger then I guess I'm a savage cheater. As far as I'm concerned, I'll continue to actually try to win the game and hope my opponents know what their cards to, especially if they're playing a foreign pile.

For the record, I lost anyway and it wasn't close, and I wasn't in the game at all, so I was gonna lose whether or not it was a mandatory trigger. Maybe I'm the only one who finds it frustrating to have someone masturbate with his cards for 5+ minutes every turn when I can't figure out half of what is going on due to foreign cards.

On another note... Opponent picking up his deck and going through it when I fetch in response to his fetch to Stifle: didn't call the judge. Opponent accidently revealing cards when shuffling my deck: didn't call the judge. Opponent forgetting to discard on 8 cards: didn't call the judge. Opponent never mentioning he had Enchantment in his graveyard for my Tarmogoyf and winning the game at 1 life (that guy was a lvl 7-8 pro also): didn't call the judge.

So I realize I'm not helping my case here and you all probably think I'm an idiot for not constantly calling judges. Where I usually play there's 1 judge for 50 players and you don't call the judge for those things so I'm not used to doing so. So I wouldn't agree that I'm doing 'anything' I can to win. Just try to do what is reasonable and have fun.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

That's not the situation at hand, however.

The person in question realized there was a bridge trigger but was unsure if it was mandatory or not. It is a mandatory trigger, not a may trigger.

What Julian means here is, if a judge was called after the fact and you said to the judge "i know there was a trigger but I am was unsure if it was a mandatory or may trigger" that there would still be a penalty though perhaps not as severe as a DQ for cheating.

You are correct, having to remind your opponent about every may trigger would be ridiculous. But not calling a judge to clear something up or letting your opponent miss a mandatory trigger and not pointing it out to gain an advantage is cheating.

I understand that the trigger in this case was mandatory I was merely pointing out that the part about optional triggers in Julian23's statement was false.

In this case Zamussels should have called the judge after the turn was passed or as soon as the bridge hit the yard. This way you know for sure and also if it would have been a "may" he would have missed it and would have not gotten the tokens. Also I believe this would result in a warning for failure to maintain game-state for both players and you would have been on the judges radar the rest of the day. There is also a teachable moment here that if you play cards you cannot read you should really know exactly how they work.

[Nidd]

I didn't know if he screwed up or not, I couldn't read the card. I'm not gonna play his Dredge deck for him and remind him of every single trigger when I can't read any of the stupid cards. What I'm going to do is try to beat him without going to time and try to figure out what the hell he's doing. I guess next time I should be the bigger jackass, get a judge to watch the entire match and ask for oracle on every card that hits the graveyard, ask for time extensions and get the judge to watch for slow play? Cause if I ask for oracle on just one card once in a while I'm telegraphing what I have in my hand. I actually want to win games once in a while.
If you're worried about the match going to time, call a judge and tell him to watch for slow play.
If you're not able to disrupt him because you don't know how a deck that is around for a long time and is varying between DtB and Established works, you might want to learn some more about the format.

If you want to be a dick, quit Magic and be a dick somewhere else.

[Parax]

I agree with everything you said after you backed off the strong wording of the original post.

There was an SCG top 8 last year where someone lost because his opponent played a Japanese Inkwell Leviathan, and he described it as a 7/11 islandwalker with shroud. I believe he didn't mention it was also a trampler, and he's not obligated his opponent with provide complete information when asked. This led to some poor combat decisions (not holding back enough creatures to block), and eventually, lethal damage.

.
I think that it was he thought he had flying instead of trample, and didn't even bother blocking at all. Not sure how much this actually helps his case since this thing is huge any ways, but it sucked non-the-less.

[TsumiBand]

Ridiculous. Are all of you advocating the use of foreign cards on the basis that I should never have to actually read the opponent's cards? I don't know how it's done in the rest of the world, but in my neck of the woods if someone plays a card across from me that I don't immediately recognize, the first thing that happens is that I ask, "Can I read that?" and the opponent has never not let me just read the thing.

The only way a person is going to know 100% of the cards in a given format is if they manage to stay up on all the relevant tech and test it using a resource other than a fully up-to-date MWS patch, or happen to have an idedic memory in regard to spoilers, or some similar thing. And sorry to say but 100% of the players using Legacy legal decks can't/won't be doing that. The presumption that these people are necessarily playing sub-par decks, or necessarily going to lose, is hubris. Elitist bullshit like this, both online and at the card table, is exactly the sort of thing the game (read: format) doesn't need if it wants to be successful. So please, leave that nonsense at home. If you're prepared to bring a Chinese foil deck to a tournament, you're going to have to be prepared to either (a) provide Oracle text (b) wait for a judge to explain Oracle text of your sweet Chinese foil deck all day (c) be prepared to explain various cards in your deck to an opponent, all day long.

Srsly, even if I think I know what a card does, like it's something infamous like an Inkwell Leviathan or an Uba Mask or some junk, but I've never actually had to play across from it? Fuck yes do I ask to read the thing. And because an opponent is not obligated to disclose 100% of the card's workings, fuck *no* would I leave the description entirely up to my opponent. So yeah, you're slowing your own game down by bringing foreign cards to tournaments.

Why do you think I want to know how people west of the Atlantic deal with stuff like this? What concessions are made at your tournaments; do all the players need to at least speak the same language? DCI's floor rules for tournaments say that the English Oracle wording is the official wording of any given Magic card; is everyone expected to know enough English to effectively play the game? Seriously, because it must happen out of necessity over in your part of the world, what's your tech in the French v. German matchup?

[Sims]

I'm not advocating the use of foreign cards. Hell I haven't actually owned foreign cards in a legacy deck in a long time. Everything I have is non-foil English except in my EDH deck where certain cards I just picked up FBBs because their cheaper (see, Sol Ring...my Demonic is German FBB because ... well it's German with the original picture... /shrug

I personally don't like them, but i know a lot of people do. I don't think it's a legit request to ask a judge for every oracle text of every card in someones deck if they have a completely asian TES deck. Yeah, it's annoying if you don't know exactly what the cards do, but if you play test legacy before tournaments against a gauntlet you should have an idea of what the card does when you get to said tournament. If you need to know exactly, you ask, but i think it's dickish to ask on every single card to try and bring the game speed to a crawl to either win on via clock if an extension isn't granted, or annoy your opponent and put them on tilt.

On the flip side, if you have an idea of what a card does but you aren't sure on something relevant, still ask a judge. Save yourself the hassle of possibly defending yourself against a DQ, Matchloss, or Warning for missing something. Trust me, judges won't cut you slack because your opponents card isn't english.

And yes, I do read my opponents cards from time to time if i'm working out a timing situation for responses in my head or if I want to be sure i know whats going on before I attempt something. I'm fairly sure that's common. I read spoilers, play MTGO, etc... but even then sometimes I still find cards I never new existed or did things I didn't realize.

[perm]

So, someone can get a deck in japanese, I don't remind them about a trigger that is in a language I can't even read, and I can get DQ'd? This is probably the most retarded thing I've heard in a week

[thecrav]

So, someone can get a deck in japanese, I don't remind them about a trigger that is in a language I can't even read, and I can get DQ'd? This is probably the most retarded thing I've heard in a week

If you didn't know what it did, you should have found out before you failed to maintain game state.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

So, someone can get a deck in japanese, I don't remind them about a trigger that is in a language I can't even read, and I can get DQ'd? This is probably the most retarded thing I've heard in a week

If you say you don't know exactly what it does the most they will do is give you a warning for failure to maintain game-state.

[Nidd]

So, someone can get a deck in japanese, I don't remind them about a trigger that is in a language I can't even read, and I can get DQ'd? This is probably the most retarded thing I've heard in a week
If you can't read it, you call a judge, which leads to you having the Oracle wording of the card, which means you can't miss interactions.

Seriously, why the hell wouldn't you ask if you don't know what card XY does...?

[DTC]

I use some foreign cards in decks, but a lot of times they're known cards. Ponder, Brainstorm, Force of will, Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, FBB duals, whatever.

For fringe cards it is annoying as i don't have them memorized and sometimes the oracle text will be relevant as you can make a certain play around it that might not be as obvious, but if you have any concerns about what the card does ask a judge.

My local legacy allows proxies. That's fine, but what can bug me is someone proxies enchantress and just writes the name on a basic land or whatever else. unless they have a non proxy in the gy or in play, then how do i know anything about what it is? This makes more time wasted to find a judge or see if someone can find a copy of the card in their binders for me to read. The oracle texts matters a lot in legacy as it can make the difference between how a card is played.

[TsumiBand]

My local legacy allows proxies. That's fine, but what can bug me is someone proxies enchantress and just writes the name on a basic land or whatever else. unless they have a non proxy in the gy or in play, then how do i know anything about what it is? This makes more time wasted to find a judge or see if someone can find a copy of the card in their binders for me to read. The oracle texts matters a lot in legacy as it can make the difference between how a card is played.

I'm on my way out the door to start a new job (yay me) but I'm almost certain that in order for a proxy to even be legal it has to have all the Oracle text on it. You can't just take a 1-mana U spell and scrub out the name and put "Ancestral Recall" and leave the text box arbitrarily full of old text.

[Julian23]

I understand that the trigger in this case was mandatory I was merely pointing out that the part about optional triggers in Julian23's statement was false.

Wait, what? My statement was all correct. I made no statement about not pointing out optional triggers. I made a statement about the correct behavior in case you don't know if it's a mandatory or optional trigger.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Wait, what? My statement was all correct. I made no statement about not pointing out optional triggers. I made a statement about the correct behavior in case you don't know if it's a mandatory or optional trigger.

Yeah I miss read what you said.

[betterthenandrew]

I'm on my way out the door to start a new job (yay me) but I'm almost certain that in order for a proxy to even be legal it has to have all the Oracle text on it. You can't just take a 1-mana U spell and scrub out the name and put "Ancestral Recall" and leave the text box arbitrarily full of old text.

I'm pretty sure there are no official rules for proxy events as they are pretty far from sanctionable. As far as I can tell the extent of real rules is the following:

3.4 Proxy Cards
A proxy card is used during competition to represent another card that has been accidentally damaged or excessively worn in the current tournament (including damaged or misprinted Limited product) at the discretion of the Head Judge. Proxies are not provided for cards damaged intentionally or through negligence.
Players may not create proxies. When a judge creates a proxy, it is included in the player’s deck. The original card is kept nearby during the match and replaces the proxy while in a public zone as long as it is recognizable.
The term “proxy” includes counterfeit cards or any card that is not a genuine game card. Counterfeit cards and other counterfeit game materials are prohibited in all DCI-sanctioned tournaments. Counterfeiters will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[TsumiBand]

I'm pretty sure there are no official rules for proxy events as they are pretty far from sanctionable. As far as I can tell the extent of real rules is the following:

3.4 Proxy Cards
A proxy card is used during competition to represent another card that has been accidentally damaged or excessively worn in the current tournament (including damaged or misprinted Limited product) at the discretion of the Head Judge. Proxies are not provided for cards damaged intentionally or through negligence.
Players may not create proxies. When a judge creates a proxy, it is included in the player’s deck. The original card is kept nearby during the match and replaces the proxy while in a public zone as long as it is recognizable.
The term “proxy” includes counterfeit cards or any card that is not a genuine game card. Counterfeit cards and other counterfeit game materials are prohibited in all DCI-sanctioned tournaments. Counterfeiters will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

There are multiple proxies being mentioned in the rules here. The underlined texts refer to a judge-created proxy which was deemed necessary due to card damage or otherwise becoming marked, presumably during the tournament. The bold text refers to proxies as Eternal players tend to know them; your run-of-the-mill "Plains Edition" Moxen, or your modified Sea's Claim that's been made to look and read like an Ancestral Recall. The DCI does not sanction 'N-proxy' events, so the goings-on there are going to be more or less 'house rules'.

[Sims]

There was a standard that was set by Vintage proxy events, typically it requires that your proxy be a basic land written on in sharpie (not pen) that has the cards full name, casting cost, types, and any relevant oracle text on the card.

[Bryant Cook]

I honestly hope I play against each one of you whiny bastards so that while I'm kicking your ass you can ask what the oracle on Grapeshot is.

[GGoober]

Wouldn't whiny bastards want to know the oracle of ToA that's killing them too? Because they clearly don't know what a Japanese ToA does.

[Sims]

Wouldn't whiny bastards want to know the oracle of ToA that's killing them too? Because they clearly don't know what a Japanese ToA does.

But Bryant doesn't Tendrils people he doesn't like, he forces them to sit through him building up lethal storm for Grapeshot.

It's like slapping someone vs. slapping someone with your dick. They both get the job done, but the latter makes more of a statement when you put them in their place.