Blue needs a Nerf

[Richard Cheese]

I remember a time not so long ago, when everyone was crying about how overpowered Zoo was...


Those people were fed to cats.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I remember a time not so long ago, when everyone was crying about how overpowered Zoo was...

Oh, and remember that time when Goblins dominated the metagame for upwards of 2-3 years?

I'm not sure how I should respond to this. I'm debating two options;

"If anyone anywhere ever complained about something that probably wasn't worth complaining about, epso facto no one else anywhere can ever criticize anything regardless of what data or arguments they're basing these criticisms on."

or

"Remember that time when Hulk-Flash dominated the meta and everyone was crying about how good it was?"

Vote, discuss, suggest alternatives etc..

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Banning Force would do terrible things to the metagame.

Brainstorm is much the richer target for any axe that might have to come down at some point, although, especially with Zoo winning the Invitational, it's worth waiting a bit to see.

Axe? We don't need no stinkin' axe!

Um, seriously though? Bans are not the answer. More, better cards of other non-blue colors, and good anti-Island sideboard hate-- these are what we need. The problem is that from a standpoint of the current card design paradigm, I'm not entirely sure that R&D is on the same page. I see them continuing to print good, undercosted creatures across the color pie, but I don't know if non-blue colors will get the good spells they need. And I don't know if we'll see a return of good, color-based hate cards.

I seriously think it's just contrarian to argue that Brainstorm is unhealthy for the format. Yes, it's a yardstick of what a good cantrip looks like. Yes, this is the only constructed format where you can play four in a list, and yes, people tend to do this. It's because it's a fucking good spell, and people like to use it. Outside the context of Vintage, where Brainstorm gives you more consistency to find spells that, you know, really are broken, it's safe, and despite the shuffling that goes along with its use, I think it actually helps keep Legacy matches within time constraints (since it increases consistency), and potentially swingier and less predictable (since it can often help an unfavored deck find what they need to win a particular matchup, or at least be able to make a play that keeps them in the game.) It's not unbeatable, and it doesn't deserve to go away.

I don't know why I even read this thread anymore, because it just fills me with nerd-rage.

[Hanni]

teh Sky is falling!!!1!! was more of what I was going for.

[Hanni]

Oh, and it's even funnier when people start calling for bans after only 1 or 2 tournaments in a short time span, aka only a few weeks, when they meta hasn't even settled in yet. But then again, I'm sure Zoo and Goblins just got lucky in a field of blue.

[clavio]

After skimming this thread I'm just going to say that I don't think anything is wrong. Yeah, 32 FOW in a top8 looks kind of fucked up but it's not nearly as bad as it looks. Something like...32 copies of Lion's Eye Diamond would be much much worse. Even 32 Aether Vials would be pretty horrible. Look at that top 16. Those are some very distinct decks. It's not like you have to face Jace.dec every single round of every single tournament.

Also...Mental Misstep IS a nerf for brainstorm! Its damn good too since there are alot of strong 1cc cards that see play in this format other than brainstorm.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yeah, 32 FOW in a top8 looks kind of fucked up but it's not nearly as bad as it looks. Something like...32 copies of Lion's Eye Diamond would be much much worse. Those are some very distinct decks. It's not like you have to face Jace.dec every single round of every single tournament.


If there were 32 copies of LED, we'd see Painter, Ichorid, Madness, TES, ANT, DDFT, Belcher, and SI. Those are some very distinct decks. It's not like you have to face combo.dec every single round of every single tournament.

[clavio]

You know what I meant. For most decks TES==ANT==DDFT==SI. Belcher is not far off. Combo+painter+dredge.format is much less diverse than the top 16 presented.

[KrzyMoose]

I don't know why I even read this thread anymore, because it is just nerd-rage.

Fixed.


I don't know why I even read The Source anymore, because it is just nerd-rage.

Fixed.


I don't know why I even read forums anymore, because they are just nerd-rage.

Fixed.

[Tacosnape]

I think the problem with blue right now, after a lot of thought, is this:

1. Mental Misstep punishes you for running CMC 1 spells.
2. Daze punishes you for avoiding CMC 1 spells and running a higher curve.
3. Force of Will punishes you for playing cards that sacrifice card advantage for mana acceleration to avoid problems 1 and 2.

So, thereby, Force, Daze, and Mental Misstep punishes you for building any deck that falls into that criteria.

And to top that, at no point do you have to have an untapped land to execute them.

So, rather than try to come up with a solution to the triple package, most decks are just going to run at least two of them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Axe? We don't need no stinkin' axe!

Um, seriously though? Bans are not the answer. More, better cards of other non-blue colors, and good anti-Island sideboard hate-- these are what we need. The problem is that from a standpoint of the current card design paradigm, I'm not entirely sure that R&D is on the same page. I see them continuing to print good, undercosted creatures across the color pie, but I don't know if non-blue colors will get the good spells they need. And I don't know if we'll see a return of good, color-based hate cards.

I seriously think it's just contrarian to argue that Brainstorm is unhealthy for the format. Yes, it's a yardstick of what a good cantrip looks like. Yes, this is the only constructed format where you can play four in a list, and yes, people tend to do this. It's because it's a fucking good spell, and people like to use it. Outside the context of Vintage, where Brainstorm gives you more consistency to find spells that, you know, really are broken, it's safe, and despite the shuffling that goes along with its use, I think it actually helps keep Legacy matches within time constraints (since it increases consistency), and potentially swingier and less predictable (since it can often help an unfavored deck find what they need to win a particular matchup, or at least be able to make a play that keeps them in the game.) It's not unbeatable, and it doesn't deserve to go away.

I don't know why I even read this thread anymore, because it just fills me with nerd-rage.

Then we're of a kind, because any suggestion that Wizards can or should print cards of a parallel power level to Brainstorm in other colors is simply retarded and demonstrates that you don't understand the game.




If you have an argument, construct an argument. As a free tip to anyone else that tries this, these posts along the line of, "I'm done posting/I don't know why I'm posting this/I shouldn't even be posting, but" etc. make you look like a mewling manchild without the most basic elements of self-restraint.

[DarthVicious]

If every deck were forced into monocolor, blue would suck. So-

RR
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land.

2BB
Sorcery
Target opponent discards two cards and sacrifices two nonbasic land.

1G
Creature - 2/2
Gets +1/+1 for each basic land type an opponent controls.

WW
Enchantment
Nonbasic lands produce colorless mana.

Just ideas.

[clavio]

Except for the red one...All of those seem really over powered. The black one is a potential 4 for 1!

[GGoober]

2BB
Sorcery
Target opponent discards two cards and sacrifices two nonbasic land. Let's add split second while you're at it, so the only chance a blue player can handle this is blindflipping Jace off a CB :P



I see what you did there!!

(Target Opponent = can't be Diverted/misdirected!!)

[DragoFireheart]

If every deck were forced into monocolor, blue would suck. So-

RR
Sorcery
Destroy target nonbasic land.




I like this one.

[MDB]

The problem with blue is not that it's the best color, but that it's got broken cards.

Broken cards break the color wheel:

First off, sure countermagic is the best disruptive ability, it better be, 'cause blue doesn't do so well when it comes to removal. However, having free countermagic available invalidates the whole 'gotta bounce that shit' issue that blue supposedly phases. FoW and MM break the wheel in that sence, and also annoyingly invalidate a legitimate weapon vs. blue, namely winning the die roll.

Secondly, CA/card quality aka the Brainstorm shit. Again a top notch ability, which in itself is amazing. However, comboing with the mana base as well is bonkers. Brainstorm is the guy that really breaks the color pie in half. While the rest of the colors are playing fair, Brainstorm and his fetchgang can play with whoever they want. Bounce that shit? Nah better to send farming. No beaters? Welcome goyf!

Seriously guys, Brainstorm and FoW are universally agreed upon to be the best cards in the format. While in fact they just belong to the long list of broken cards that blue has spawned since inception. I can't advocate banning FoW, for combo reasons.

But a Legacy without Brainstorm and the Duals, is the only meta in which the proposed anti-blue cards will be actually be played in non-blue decks...just saying...

[Finn]

There's a card that does the red one and draws a card already.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's a card that does the red one and draws a card already.

Uhhhh... what?

[bloodbrother]

i think that other colors need 3 CC spells that have color restrictions (ex: RRR, GGG, WWW, BBB) and these spells should be devastating enough to build a deck around.

[menace13]

Uhhhh... what?
It is in response to the card posted above his post. I can't think of what card would also cantrip off a Sinkhole.
Cost RR, Destroy NonBasic, draw a card

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Then we're of a kind, because any suggestion that Wizards can or should print cards of a parallel power level to Brainstorm in other colors is simply retarded and demonstrates that you don't understand the game.


If you have an argument, construct an argument. As a free tip to anyone else that tries this, these posts along the line of, "I'm done posting/I don't know why I'm posting this/I shouldn't even be posting, but" etc. make you look like a mewling manchild without the most basic elements of self-restraint.

I wasn't saying isn't that they need to print other spells on the power level of Brainstorm. What I was trying to say is that I'd like to see WotC make more cards that don't implicitly present Magic as a game where creatures are the only good way to win, and I think a big part of this is to print good non-creature spells in every color. I can see how I didn't come right out and say that, exactly, but I didn't say whatever it is you apparently think I did either. Any suggestion to the contrary is "simply retarded," and demonstrates that you don't pay attention to what people are actually trying to communicate.

I've said that I'd like to see a return of strong color-based hate cards (in limited doses, and effecting blue the most.) I've also said that I feel like Wizards should start printing good cards that aren't so easily splashed into decks of any base color. This was previously in this thread, and it mostly got buried, because everyone was arguing about a bunch of fucking hyperbole. Also, in my previous post, the one that you lambast so angrily, I presented an argument that Brainstorm is not unhealthy for the format (because as opposed to Vintage, the cards it helps you find more consistently are not truly broken). You can argue to the contrary if you want, but I feel like this is a pretty simple and self-evident point. And so you will see, I actually did "make an argument," or "present an opinion," so I don't see why you're so angry.

Reading is tech. So is not relying so much on conjecture to figure out what it is you think people are saying.

[obituary 95]

I honestly do not care about this agument . and I will say that i only read the first page

but I do have a quick question. why the hell would r and d be reading this thread. they do not test legacy. and it is in my oppinion that r and d really doesnt care that much about the format.

Posting skills: use them. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174024&viewfull=1#post174024) Thanks. - Bardo

[kinda]

I honestly do not care about this agument . and I will say that i only read the first page

but I do have a quick question. why the hell would r and d be reading this thread. they do not test legacy. and it is in my oppinion that r and d really doesnt care that much about the format.

The people in this thread are posting because they enjoy the discussion.

[Iare]

1G
Creature - 2/2
Gets +1/+1 for each basic land type an opponent controls.

WW
Enchantment
Nonbasic lands produce colorless mana.

The fact that people think these cards are broken just goes to show that people are greedy as hell with their manabases in Legacy and they need punishment. These cards are perfectly fair, having basic lands return to the format isn't a bad thing, in fact it is the single easiest way to stop blue from being everywhere. Along with printing less colorless symbols in really powerful cards. How about encouraging people to 1. Play more Basics 2. Make it easier to hate on decks with greedy ass manabases.

[I am the brainwasher]

I agree on punishing players for playing too much non-basic-lands (just a note, CAN-Thresh is one of the decks I like the most so my oppinion is really down to earth here IMO), and yes, I think its one of the formats problems in general.

Things that benefit the format that will come with new powerful non-basic-hosers are:

- New players are able to compete with Mono/dual-colored decks (which are rather cheap)
- Building a deck becomes more skill intensive with keeping in mind that the mana-base is way more essential and involves more complex decisions when it comes down to fetching, landdrops etc.
- Might balance the prices (mostly for duals) in general

It is important to not be too overeager with such cards but more non-basic hosers wouldnt hurt at all, IMO rather the other way around.
Right now the only thing you have to keep in mind is Wasteland, which is somewhat marginal in comparison to all nonbasics which dominate most mana-bases.
BUT this all has nothing to do with why blue should be nerved, which it shouldnt IMO.
Its perfectly fine for me if players are forced to rethink their manabases and are forced to be more careful, forced to not be able to abuse each card in each deck, but this should happen in a balanced way. Duals are the essence of Legacy.

[Seraphus]

Why is so important to bannhammer FOW?

The GP winner deck show us that Misstep is a great card, so strong that can transform a midrange deck into an aggro deck... It replaces FOW in some decks...

Cards like wasteland and duals are the heart and soul of legacy - fow is just balancing factor - its time to wizards to give us more wastelands and duals!

[=^.^= & <:3 )~]

It is important to not be too overeager with such cards but more non-basic hosers wouldnt hurt at all, IMO rather the other way around.
Right now the only thing you have to keep in mind is Wasteland, which is somewhat marginal in comparison to all nonbasics which dominate most mana-bases.


I don't think that WotC start to print some massive ammount of non-basic hosers, as they could screw the T2 lands (and T2 been the main source of WotC's money, imho), like all manlands, duals, etc. I'm not sure how hard it is to build a solid two- or three-color manabase for Standard/Extended deck (as I don't play it and therefore I don't care of it), but all the Collonades, duals, Eldrazi Temples, Mutavaults (and the like) see the play and some new T2 Wasteland/Moon could make the people unhappy. therefore spending less money on the game, therefore leaving WotC with less revenue... maybe.

Maybe someone can make some research on the numbers of non-basics hosers in last several editions/blocks (from memory I know just about Anathemancer and one new crappy Be-wasteland, but that's all), but it surely won't be me, as I don't care.

For me the format is as healthy as it could be. I play Dark Thresh (read: four-of BS, MM, FoW) and I lose pretty often to the decks with lots of removal + discard, where the FoW (or better yet - the counterspells) are not very good at all. It's notthat problematic to build Pox, Junk, Eva Green, Bx control, etc., that beats all the crappy "I-play-eight-creatures" Threshes (via card advantage, inevitability and loads of removal), AND the combo decks (via discard and tempo / additional control).

I think that BS (been the free mulligan) is the only potential adept for ban, but then again, is it needed?

[Mr. Safety]

2BB
Sorcery
Target opponent discards two cards and sacrifices two nonbasic land.



Smallpox can be a powerful 3-4 for one effect, too. It hurts you, too...but Wasteland negates a land-drop, Mental Misstep hits you for 2 life, Daze negates a land-drop, and Force hits you for 1 life and robs a card.

I think a Rancid Earth variant would be GREAT. It's fine for a LD-card to cost 2-3 mana, it just needs a relivant secondary ability and a reasonable drawback. Maybe something like this?

Suck it, Trebek! 1BB
sorcery
As an additional cost to Suck it, Trebek!, sacrifice a permanent. Destroy target non-basic land, then that land's controller sacrifices a permenant if they control another non-basic land.

[I am the brainwasher]

Yep youre right, Wizards isnt interested in printing harsh non-basic-hosers (mainly) for some reasons you mentioned, sad but true.
It is correct that IF a card would get axed, Brainstorm is the one that makes most sense, even if I dont see a reason for it.
People slowly adapt to the Meta and Pox-like decks or Loam are growing, slowly but they do grow in popularity. The formats problem isnt the legal cardpool, its actually the people who gave up on innovating and reacting to results.
Netdecking is a damn annoying bitch.

[Iare]

Yep youre right, Wizards isnt interested in printing harsh non-basic-hosers (mainly) for some reasons you mentioned, sad but true.
It is correct that IF a card would get axed, Brainstorm is the one that makes most sense, even if I dont see a reason for it.
People slowly adapt to the Meta and Pox-like decks or Loam are growing, slowly but they do grow in popularity. The formats problem isnt the legal cardpool, its actually the people who gave up on innovating and reacting to results.
Netdecking is a damn annoying bitch.

I have a feeling alot of standard players are sick of overpriced cards and paying for new non-basics every year or so (All of which are useless in other formats). So I disregard this argument and say Wizards are just holding steadfast to the Timmy hates land destruction so lets not print any decent land destruction cards. This is really holding back on a big chunk of design space, design space that is important to the game and the people who play it.

The last many sets seem to be more and more multicolored cards and overpowered creatures. It is actually rather dull :(

[Jander78]

I have a feeling alot of standard players are sick of overpriced cards and paying for new non-basics every year or so (All of which are useless in other formats). So I disregard this argument and say Wizards are just holding steadfast to the Timmy hates land destruction so lets not print any decent land destruction cards. This is really holding back on a big chunk of design space, design space that is important to the game and the people who play it.

The last many sets seem to be more and more multicolored cards and overpowered creatures. It is actually rather dull :(
I think Wizards has done a good job and producing fair land destruction cards recently. I don't think land destruction is a viable strategy in itself, but there are decent options to run in Standard that can get rid of problematic lands.

My two favorites:

Tectonic Edge
Acidic Slime

[Kich867]

I have a feeling alot of standard players are sick of overpriced cards and paying for new non-basics every year or so (All of which are useless in other formats). So I disregard this argument and say Wizards are just holding steadfast to the Timmy hates land destruction so lets not print any decent land destruction cards. This is really holding back on a big chunk of design space, design space that is important to the game and the people who play it.

The last many sets seem to be more and more multicolored cards and overpowered creatures. It is actually rather dull :(

I don't see how this applies to the current standard. I have 12 nonbasic dual lands for my deck, in total they ran me something like 40$, that's 3 different sets, I bought them earlier this year as I just got back into standard. On average it's something like 12-15$ for a playset of them. Also, outside of Jace and any other $30+ card like the planeswalkers, nothing is really outrageous in price. And I suspect that will die down after Jace cycles out, which will be soon.

In regards to the multicolored cards and overpowered creatures...the best creature in the format is a 2 mana 1/1 flier that fetches itself from the library--I guess Thrun and Mirran Crusader aren't bad either, but they're remarkably easier to deal with than that bird. In the last 7 sets, all of standard, there are 7 multicolored cards.

In Alara, yeah, there was an entire set devoted to them, but...standard at the moment has like, 1 playable multicolored card, and Tezzeret isn't even that good.

[Iare]

I think Wizards has done a good job and producing fair land destruction cards recently. I don't think land destruction is a viable strategy in itself, but there are decent options to run in Standard that can get rid of problematic lands.

My two favorites:

Tectonic Edge
Acidic Slime



If you play either of those outside of EDH you are doing it wrong sir.

[Jander78]

If you play either of those outside of EDH you are doing it wrong sir.
Tectonic Edge is a staple in Caw-Blade; The most played deck in Standard.

[Zach Tartell]

If you play either of those outside of EDH you are doing it wrong sir.

Additionally Slime is an auto-include in any deck with Lotus Cobra (RUG, RG ramp, Mono-Green...).

[Iare]

Right since Wizards prints playable land destruction in standard they are doing a good job? The fact these cards get played just means standard is a format defined by shitty cards surrounding one or two good ones (Jace atm).

Standard is just a garbage format and therefor doesn't count and isn't this a legacy forum?

What is the last land destruction spell to see play in legacy? Devastating dreams? That was printed how many years ago?

[Finn]

What is the last land destruction spell to see play in legacy? Devastating dreams? That was printed how many years ago?
Beast Within - kinda new. Kinda.

[DrJones]

What is the last land destruction spell to see play in legacy? Devastating dreams? That was printed how many years ago?Stifle.

Fetchlands and free counterspells make land destruction a losing strategy, so the best LD in the format are lands and counters.

[Jander78]

Standard is just a garbage format and therefor doesn't count and isn't this a legacy forum?

Slow down there....I was simply replying to your post in where you referenced nonbasic lands and land destruction specifically in Standard:

I have a feeling alot of standard players are sick of overpriced cards and paying for new non-basics every year or so (All of which are useless in other formats). So I disregard this argument and say Wizards are just holding steadfast to the Timmy hates land destruction so lets not print any decent land destruction cards. This is really holding back on a big chunk of design space, design space that is important to the game and the people who play it.

The last many sets seem to be more and more multicolored cards and overpowered creatures. It is actually rather dull :(



Regardless, they are still printing decent cards, just not as good as existing ones we have for Legacy. If Wasteland were ever banned (hypothetical, no I don't think it ever will or should be), Ghost Quarter would see more regular play. Anything stronger than what we currently have would be kind of insane.

[DarthVicious]

The red one was my favorite. Closest in reality is Lava Blister by the way.

The black one... yes, it is potentially a 4 for 1. So is Archivist. Not to mention Jace's potential CA is potentially much higher than 4, and on top of that he can deal with dudes on the board. LMAO @ adding split second. Maybe if it cost 1BBB instead.

The green one is approximately Goyf, yet it can't be run unless you're playing against a greedy manabase. Maybe this would be better at keeping blue honest:

1GG
Creature - 2/2
Cannot be countered.
Islandwalk.
Cannot attack if you control any islands.
Gets +1/+1 for each basic land type opponents control.

Now I don't like it, it's a bit clunky, but it gets the job done.
And... this.

WWW
Enchantment
When 'this' comes into play, choose a color.
Nonbasic lands that can produce the chosen color come into play tapped and don't untap during their controller's untap step.
At the end of each turn, tap all nonbasic lands that can produce the chosen color.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, also


I wasn't saying isn't that they need to print other spells on the power level of Brainstorm. What I was trying to say is that I'd like to see WotC make more cards that don't implicitly present Magic as a game where creatures are the only good way to win, and I think a big part of this is to print good non-creature spells in every color. I can see how I didn't come right out and say that, exactly, but I didn't say whatever it is you apparently think I did either. Any suggestion to the contrary is "simply retarded," and demonstrates that you don't pay attention to what people are actually trying to communicate.


Um, seriously though? Bans are not the answer. More, better cards of other non-blue colors, and good anti-Island sideboard hate-- these are what we need. The problem is that from a standpoint of the current card design paradigm, I'm not entirely sure that R&D is on the same page. I see them continuing to print good, undercosted creatures across the color pie, but I don't know if non-blue colors will get the good spells they need. And I don't know if we'll see a return of good, color-based hate cards.

I seriously think it's just contrarian to argue that Brainstorm is unhealthy for the format. Yes, it's a yardstick of what a good cantrip looks like. Yes, this is the only constructed format where you can play four in a list, and yes, people tend to do this. It's because it's a fucking good spell, and people like to use it. Outside the context of Vintage, where Brainstorm gives you more consistency to find spells that, you know, really are broken, it's safe, and despite the shuffling that goes along with its use, I think it actually helps keep Legacy matches within time constraints (since it increases consistency), and potentially swingier and less predictable (since it can often help an unfavored deck find what they need to win a particular matchup, or at least be able to make a play that keeps them in the game.) It's not unbeatable, and it doesn't deserve to go away.

I mean, you may not know what the word "yardstick" means, but...


I've said that I'd like to see a return of strong color-based hate cards (in limited doses, and effecting blue the most.) I've also said that I feel like Wizards should start printing good cards that aren't so easily splashed into decks of any base color. This was previously in this thread, and it mostly got buried, because everyone was arguing about a bunch of fucking hyperbole.

And you said that they should print more powerful spells in other colors with Brainstorm as a yardstick. What exactly is difficult about this? You were not simply arguing for better hosers, that was an addendum and doesn't address the issue anyway.


Also, in my previous post, the one that you lambast so angrily, I presented an argument that Brainstorm is not unhealthy for the format (because as opposed to Vintage, the cards it helps you find more consistently are not truly broken).

This is a nonsensical argument that could be applied to any card-drawing spell. Also Brainstorm can find plenty of broken cards in Legacy.


You can argue to the contrary if you want, but I feel like this is a pretty simple and self-evident point. And so you will see, I actually did "make an argument," or "present an opinion," so I don't see why you're so angry.

I get irritated that people make statements they don't actually understand.

[AngryTroll]

I am still really looking forward to the set Imperiosaur is from. I really like cards like Cryptic Command and Fangren Firstborn or a set full of cards like Imperiosaur that reward playing mono-colored decks. That lets Wizards print super powerful cards without making them easy to splash.

[=^.^= & <:3 )~]

I am still really looking forward to the set Imperiosaur is from. I really like cards like Cryptic Command and Fangren Firstborn or a set full of cards like Imperiosaur that reward playing mono-colored decks. That lets Wizards print super powerful cards without making them easy to splash.

Fact is that most of such a cards suck compared to the multicolored. That, or people cheat them into play somehow. All those green Elementals with GGGG in thier mana cost, all those Angels with WWW... people just reanimate them in a blue shell. And Fangren Firstborn is awful compared to Iona. (I know that it was just an example and that you did not thought of it been the most relevant green spell ever.)
If they make some hard-to-splash hosers on wheels, it'll be different. Something along the lines of the new Troll, or some Choke creature, etc. http://panzercentral.com/forum/images/smilies/dunno.gif