[Idea] American Tempo

[Kich867]

Objective:

Find a suitable Red/White/Blue list that maintains tempo advantage up until victory (or as close as possible to this). The UG Tempo lists tend to fall back on green as "The thing you win with", as the cards that produce tempo are generally just Stifle and Wasteland.

General Ideas:

The cards that immediately come to mind are obviously, Stifle and Wasteland. These essentially make up the core of tempo control. However, Red offers two cards: Raze and Ajani Vengeant. Raze is up in the air, but I feel Ajani is a core of the deck. He can stun-tap a color out of someone's mana pool, stun-tap the most obvious threat, eventually he's a one-sided armageddon, and he lightning-helix's to boot.

My main concern about Ajani is that he doesn't necessarily win the game outright with his ultimate, my secondary concern is how do I adequately protect him for the 5 turns it takes him to unleash his ultimate. For the primary concern, I obviously just need some win condition that does it's own thing well that resides in the Red White and Blue, a win condition that can consistently deal damage per turn. For the secondary concern, he does a fairly good job of protecting himself via stun-tapping creatures; also, running removal seems fairly obvious when Red and White are among colors the deck has available to it. Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt are immediate firsts that come to mind.

I'd also like to keep all of this in a blue-control shell (Force/Spell Snare/Misstep)

Card choices:

So, for this list, I'd like to start off with Ajani Vengeant, Stifle, and Wasteland. I think Lightning Bolt / Swords to Plowshares are also auto-includes. With the blue shell I'd like Force of Will / Spell Snare / Mental Misstep / Brainstorm and maybe Daze.

So the list as it stands would be something like this:

Spells:
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Mental Misstep
4x Brainstorm

Planeswalkers:
4x Ajani Vengeant

Land:
4x Wasteland

Which is 32 non-land cards, which kind of makes me uncomfortable, as I don't really know what to win with at this point.

Cards like Grim Lavamancer came to mind, it would help keep enemy Tarmogoyf's down a notch while I get a swords ready as well as dealing damage to the opponent etc. He seemed like an obvious choice due to the number of counters / wasteland / fetches I'll be running, my graveyard should be pretty full.

But beyond him I can't really think of any fantastic win card, Figure of Destiny maybe? Lightning Angel has crossed my mind many times, especially after looking at Skyknight Legionnaire and thinking "Maybe I could peck away with this guy..", for one more mana she has vigilance and +1/+2 over Lego. I feel uncomfortable with her at 4 mana though with no protection. Obviously my array of counterspells would be her protection..

Perhaps a better choice would be Mirran Crusader? He can't get blocked by Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Dark Confidant, Qasali Pridemage, or Knight of the Reliquary. He kills Vendillion Clique in combat and lives.. I think I like Mirran Crusader better.

This makes me want to put something like, 2 Umezawa's Jitte's in, but it may not be necessary. A crusader puts them on a 5 turn clock which seems fine, not counting any damage they take themselves.

So this would be a super primitive list:

Creatures: 8
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Mirran Crusader

Spells: 28
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Spell Snare
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers: 4
4x Ajani Vengeant

Lands: 20
4x Wasteland
+ Whatever I need to do for land.

Questions:

Is 20 land too few? (it feels that way but I don't know what to cut)

Is the deck trying to go in too many directions, does it lack focus? (again, get that feeling, don't know where it is, lightning bolt seems like it's the candidate in the back of my head)

Is Ajani in danger of the "cool things" zone? (Something I'm afraid of.)

Is this just totally terrible and I should scrap the idea?

Are there better win conditions that my newbie Legacy mind hasn't really thought of or a better shell to place this idea in?

I've been here long enough to feel comfortable with the bluntness and directness of responses, so I'd even be comfortable if your response was just "No." as a general statement towards the deck. I'm 100% open to suggestions / pure rejection.

[Koby]

4 Ajani might be overkill, and is tough to get with only 20 lands. I really love Vendilion Clique in tempo decks, because it's just a perfect fit - disruption, evasion, and a steady clock. Would Spellstutter Sprite be out of the question here to continue the disruption?

Maze of Ith works really well at protecting Planeswalkers, but I don't think it fits in this deck. Fire/Ice is good tool to use for both its sides. Perhaps Isochron Scepter would be a good consideration in this deck?

I like the idea, maybe something closer to Scepter-Chant decks of old, with an update from better toys.

[hyc8028]

There seem to be some variation of this deck in the last couple SCG open. Clique is just too good not to run it here. What about Jace and Stoneforge Mystic here?

[Kich867]

Jace I wasn't sure about, Stoneforge Mystic is definitely a possibility, as well as Clique, if I were to find room for equipment.

My question then is what can I remove to fit 4x Mystics, however many cliques (1, 2?), and some equipment to tutor up.

Fire and Ice sounds like a wonderful idea, but again I'm at a loss of what to cut in order to get that, especially if I'm toning down Ajani's for more land (as I agree, 20 land is too little and 4 ajani's is too much, so droping ajani to 2, land to 22?).

My original idea behind not wanting Jace is such: Ajani works toward his ultimate while having a + ability that moves the deck more towards tempo control, but this is only under "Ideal principles" of the deck (the idea that tempo will be in my court after some choice Stifle's and Wastelands). I don't like that for Jace to protect himself he has to drop counters, and his + ability falls into the category of Sadistic Sacrament type deals where you don't actually remove or negate a threat, you reduce the chances of it occurring.

Ajani's + ability being able to stun tap their whatever mana they need or keeping that Tarmogoyf locked down buying me time to find a sword, all the while pumping up towards his ultimate, seems more ideal for the deck -- but I could be absolutely wrong about that, that's just my reasoning for choosing him over Jace.

So I really like the ideas presented, I'm just having difficulties deciding what to drop--Fire and Ice for Lightning Bolt sounds like a solid trade, I always enjoy more flexibility in my decks and that may be an optimal choice. I could drop maybe a spell snare and a mental misstep for 2 Vendilion cliques as well. Grim Lavamancers could become 3 Stoneforge Mystics and I could drop a Mirran Crusader for a Jitte and SoSaS (Swords of something and something)?

That feels..doable I think. Something like this perhaps:

//Creatures: 8
3x Mirran Crusader
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique

//Spells: 26
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Snare
3x Mental Misstep
4x Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalkers: 2
2x Ajani Vengeant

//Artifacts: 2
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

//Lands: 22
4x Wasteland
//+ 18 other optimal choices etc.

[Greenpoe]

Doesn't the Stoneforge package seem like a little much with only 8 creatures? You could take it out for +1 Ajani, +1 Clique, and throw the Lavamancers back in. Grim Lavamancer is important because extra burn works great with Ajani to help protect him or use a Lavamancer activation and his -2 to take down a big threat (Tombstalker).

[Mr. Safety]

I think if you're going to do something with Ajani Vengeant...I think something to actually TAP things is neccessary to utilize the guy. I also think that if you were on to something with Raze...but do you really need to use Blue for tempo? You can still play Mental Misstep, Swords, and Wasteland...then add in Stoneforge Mystic, Grim Lavamancer, and Basilisk Collar. I also considered using Stun Sniper in a tempo oriented deck like this...just to continue to abuse the B-Collar synergy. I also think that cards like Moonhold and Orim's Chant could really shine.

A rudimentary R/W tempo list:

Creatures - 12
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Stun Sniper
2x Figure of Destiny

Spells - 26
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Raze
4x Orim's Chant
2x Moonhold
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Ajani Vengeant
4x Mental Misstep
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands - 21
4x Wasteland
4x Arid Mesa
4x Plateau
5x Plains
4x Mountain


The big question mark is this: is 21 lands enough to abuse Raze and still have enough mana to hit 3-4 for Moonhold, Figure of Destiny pumping, and Ajani Vengeant? That's a tough one. I know with the blue splash you're trying to filter into lands with Brainstorm. Sensei's Divining Top is a possibly inclusion instead of Brainstorm (the Moonhold and Raze counts can be shuffled around for the Tops)

[Ziilot]

...

Flagstones of Trokair could work with Razes.

[Kich867]

I don't particularly see why needing another tap source is necessary, Ice does this as well (albeit not consistently). I agree that the stoneforge package with only 8 creatures isn't very strong, however I do like Vendilion Clique and Grim Lavamancer, it would also feel good to run a nice mix of creatures like that (that happen to be red, white, and blue haha).

This deck will obviously have poor matchups against mono-colored decks. However, even in that situation, Stifles can still be used to hit (against Merfolk for example) Vial activations, be pitched to force, and Razes can be sideboarded in to utilize wasteland in a less optimal manner.

I feel that if I am going to run Grim Lavamancer I would need to also run blue to fuel him. For one, more fetch lands. Two, more spells, less permanents. Three, I genuinely don't feel comfortable playing a deck without blue in it if the deck isn't hyper aggressive, and this deck isn't--it's essentially a control deck which is why I felt blue control was the optimal shell to put it in.

Though Orim's Chant is definitely a solid idea. As much as I'd really hate to would it be a better idea to ease up on the blue control to add in Isochron's Scepter and Orim's Chant? I am slightly hesitant about that since I've played against kind of a jank Countertop/ScepterChant deck combo (when it gets there, it gets there and you're kind of screwed) and I don't like the idea of having a dead scepter in my hand if I never find a chant. Putting a Fire/Ice on scepter doesn't sound terrible but it also doesn't sound that amazing either you know?

-- If I dropped some of the blue control to add more tempo oriented things like Orim's Chant in there, the two main things I see being droppable are Spell snare and Mental Misstep as badly as I don't want to drop it. My only counter would then be FoW, being able to target Stifle/Ice/Clique/Brainstorm/Itself. Is 17 blue cards enough to run/Justify FoW?

[Uncoordinated]

I would trim down the Stoneforge package to two and two equips if I really wanted to keep it in. Why hasn't anyone suggested Squadron Hawk in this list?

If you're dropping Lavamancers I would suggest taking out a couple Fire//Ice for Firespouts or EE maindeck. You'll probably have a great game vs. tribal decks since red has so many removal options post-board, but Firespout doesn't hit any of your dudes except Stoneforge, and they're efficient answers to swarm. I like spot removal a lot, but it's always a one for one at best.

I think Crucible + utility lands/ man lands would be a nice addition if you wanted to assume a more controlling role. It lets you actively pursue the mana denial plan a little better, ensures land drops, etc. It's also slightly less mana/card intensive than Scepter-Chant, although that's a lot stronger against a lot of things.

How would you gear your sideboard? Have you done any playtesting yet? I have not, so please take that into consideration when looking at my brainstorming.

EDIT

If I were to take out stuff it would probably be at least one Mirran Crusader. I guess I'm still not sold on her. Eight spot removal spells should also probably be pared down, considering how many the top decks are playing currently, and also considering the availability of sweepers in your colour.

[Kich867]

I think that the Lavamancers will go back in, I think it will just be utilized better. I haven't done playtesting yet as I don't think there's a legitimate enough list yet. I'm iffy about main-decking sweepers. Perhaps I could fine a spot for one though. I'll try it.

The current list is looking something like this: (Fire and Ice seemed like the easiest spot to drop a card for a 1-of Firespout just in case).

4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Spell Snare
2x Fire and Ice
1x Firespout

3x Ajani Vengeant

4x Wasteland + 18 other lands.

I don't think the deck is yet ready to think about the sideboard.

-- I would really like to find a way to put Orim's Chant in the deck, it's basically just a white Time Walk to an extent. The other thing I'm worried about is I have no form of like...general counter. Mental Misstep and Spell Snare are amazing, but they can't counter Force of Will, but that's something I'm willing to do (essentially run FOW's to counter FOW's and MM/SS for the early game, hopefully being able to hold spot removal for the late game).

[perm]

Have you considered Trickbind as stifle #5?

[Kich867]

Have you considered Trickbind as stifle #5?

As good as Trickbind is, I don't think at 2 mana it makes the cut. There doesn't seem to be any spot I can remove for it, it'd be overcommitting a little bit to something that the opponent can work around. I feel like stifle is the superior choice because it's playable turn 1. Trickbind has it's benefits--being able to kill Morphling, stop a Counterbalance, stop an Equip, stopping the Top, etc.. it's awesome, I just don't know if the deck needs 5 stifles.

[Iare]

I think you are trying to play American Control more than American tempo atm and it just doesn't look all that fantastic.
Short list of more tempo based cards and beat sticks to consider:

Jotun Grunt: This is the big dog I think you need to have. He can stop Tombstalker from coming down, generally mess with dredge, shrinks Goyf's, blocks and kills a hell of alot of random things, hates on lands/loam engine and makes for a good beat stick.

Figure of Destiny: This card is really good when you aren't running many creatures, since he scales with the game state perfectly. Having one on the table is perfect standstill insurance.

Lightning Helix: Fantastic against burn, sligh, zoo, merfolk, storm combo. Hell 6 point life swings or killing a creature and negating a burn spell or smack to the face is pretty much always good.

Stepp Lynx: If you want to speed up your clock you could try running this, its good for quick decks.

Sideboard cards:
Volcanic Fallout: F#$%ING fish.
Oblivion ring: Herp derp.deck (Show and tell, I win) is annoying
Faerae macabre: Graveyard hate that supplements Jotun Grunt well.
Misdirection: Always a fun card.
Shattering Spree: If Affinity picks up steam you can shatter their dreams :P
Spell Pierce: General hate.

[Kich867]

I agree with the idea of Jotun Grunt, Figure of destiny was something I had considered but was somewhat uncomfortable with devoting mana to something that could just..die. I'd rather use a creature that operates in some form of...permanent fashion I guess?

Jotun Grunt is certainly interesting and very good, but..he will die (inevitably, this is a possibility with all creatures, but cumulative upkeep may mean he's only alive for a turn or two). And I'm not sure how OK I am with that. Lightning Helix could replace Fire and Ice, but I kind of like the flexibility. I feel like the goal of a tempo deck should be to set the opponent back, it's not a fast deck--a fast deck wouldn't look to set the opponent back you're looking to pass them by, you know?

The deck relies on the idea that, as the match develops, I will, as consistently as I can design the deck, be ahead of the opponent and there's no reason in particular I would need to try and race them. The deck's philosophy is stringent on that premise that the opponent will not be able to recover from the lead I create for myself.

The lands you aim to fetch for will be stifled, the ones that do make it will be wasted, the creatures you can finally try to play will be countered or removed, and given an amount of time that I estimate the opponent will be recovering, the situation is intended to reset itself, putting the opponent even deeper into that hole.

By no means am I trying to rush to kill them, this isn't a Boros-Deck-Wins deck, Steppe Lynx and other fast wins seem out of place, I need only a creature that will be resilient and lasting or can operate without fear of dying (Grim Lavamancer doesn't need to physically put himself in harms way, Mirran Crusader avoids almost every common win-con creature and simultaneously protects me from almost all of them, and Vendilion Clique A: flies, B: helps the deck with its goal of setting someone back by forcibly removing a valuable card from their hand).

I don't really see how those cards add tempo at least in the way I perceive the idea of tempo. Stifling a fetch land puts you ahead, certainly, but only in the sense that you've set them back--nothing is being added to you, you took something away from them that they needed and are now kind of screwed.

[perm]

Maindecking Jotun Grunt is bad.

[colo]

Maindecking Jotun Grunt is awesome.

[Iare]

Jotun grunt only requires 12 cards between all graveyards to make 3 turns. Maindecking Jotun Grunt in fast decks is a great idea but has too much dis-synergy with Lavamancer to run both. "Tempo" based decks have the idea of disrupt -> kill, the idea is to knock them off their feat and win the game quickly before they recover. So the title of this thread is misleading since you are trying to create American control. Lightning Helix is still a good card for control since it can create card advantage and buy you time (If you negate a bolt to the face and kill a creature thats +1 advantage), sometimes throws storm players off since they will hit you for exactly lethal. A lightning helix can keep you alive and allow you to recover where they will have a hell of a time playing catch up.

You should consider running Elspeth as your win condition. Pumping your double-striker and giving him flying is sexy. If the goal is to control the game and win at your leisure you will need raw card advantage, consider running 2-3 Fact or Faction. Or finding room for countertop.

[Kich867]

Elspeth is something I'll keep in mind. That would make Mirran Crusader a 2 turn clock at worst since he'd be swinging for ten. I'll take your semantical issues to heart. Given the rather diverse lists of what people consider tempo decks, I'd say the definition of it is somewhat flexible.

I think your definition is pretty accurate though, disrupt and kill.

-- Would Daze be a horrible alternate to Spell Snare? That would effectively make every counter in the deck be possibly manalessly casted. I'm not sure how alright I am with bouncing a land to my hand.

[Iare]

Elspeth is something I'll keep in mind. That would make Mirran Crusader a 2 turn clock at worst since he'd be swinging for ten. I'll take your semantical issues to heart. Given the rather diverse lists of what people consider tempo decks, I'd say the definition of it is somewhat flexible.

I think your definition is pretty accurate though, disrupt and kill.

-- Would Daze be a horrible alternate to Spell Snare? That would effectively make every counter in the deck be possibly manalessly casted. I'm not sure how alright I am with bouncing a land to my hand.

Daze is good in tempo decks, this is not a tempo deck. This is midrange/control and your land drops are precious. Elspeth the original is absolutely the best wincon for such decks since at worst she produces a free chump blocker a turn while you dig for more answers, she is basically evil bitch number 1.

Since you are not going to overwhelm your opponent and kill him quickly, daze will become less and less effective as time goes on (People do get extra mana). Spell snare is the better card in that slot.

[Kich867]

Gah I had this posted awhile ago, it must not have worked. I like the idea of Elspeth, she makes Mirran Crusader a 2 turn clock at worst swinging for a flying 10 damage.

However given that this isn't a tempo deck, would it not be ideal to just drop Stifle and Wasteland out since that's not what this deck is. It would let me get a more stable counter base, add in some more spot removal, and help make my mana base more robust.

Something I'm curious about though, given my current list--what do you think needs to be changed to make this a tempo list? From the sound of it, something like a Nimble Mongoose or I guess Steppe Lynx (given how many fetches I would intend to run) is all the deck really needs in order to qualify under Tempo. I say this because looking at other tempo decks, most notably Tempo Thresh, they run.. Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, then basically my deck except with way more blue.

[Tacosnape]

My threat base would probably be something like Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique, and Meddling Mage. It's a very strong base that also allows you a Batterskull and goes pretty well with the Ajani Vengeants and/or Elspeths.

[Iare]

My threat base would probably be something like Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique, and Meddling Mage. It's a very strong base that also allows you a Batterskull and goes pretty well with the Ajani Vengeants and/or Elspeths.

Actually meddling mage is a decent suggestion, though would get boarded out against any red deck. To be considered a tempo deck you need under-costed fatties that will allow you win quickly or have lots of creatures that disrupt when they come into play. Hell I don't really consider most tempo thresh lists real tempo decks. Now if I were to build an American tempo deck right this second this is what I would build to test:


Creatures- 16
4 Stepp Lynx
4 Meddling Mage <--- Good suggestion me thinks, if nothing else you need the blue count for FOW
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Isamaru Hound of Konda <--- Might not be good enough, though I am happy enough with him in boros sligh (Side his ass out against zoo though).

Spells- 23
4x Force of will
4x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix

Lands-21
4 Wasteland
8-10 Fetches
Duels/basics to fill it out

Sideboard- 15
4x Spell Snare
4x Oblivion ring
4x Volcanic fallout <--- Side these in against weenie decks in place of meddling mage, against merfolk you board isamaru and mages for fallouts and 2 spell snare.
3x Shattering Spree

This is untested hyperbole atm, but its what I would start with.

[Kich867]

Personally I would like to lean more towards creatures that disrupt upon entering--Steppe Lynx for instance, doesn't do a whole lot for me (I mean in that regard it seems like Jotun would be superior option if only because he's a 4/4 for 2 all the time where Steppe Lynx -might- be a 4/5 if I fetch land).

Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, Stoneforge Mystic, and Jotun Grunt seem like decent options (I'd still like to see Mirran Crusader, so maybe I'll try and fit him in again). But even then, the Stoneforge requires some tutor targets, not sure where I'd be able to squeeze 2-4 equipments in..

I feel like Figure of Destiny is counter-intuitive to winning quickly, and he looks more apt to a deck that wants to win slowly. If you're using your mana to disrupt your opponent, you won't have much left over to pump FOD. Furthermore if you are using Daze's and Wastelands, you just won't have as much mana available to utilize him to his fullest. So I think creatures who require no extra mana investment would be the most ideal.

I also feel that if the shift is for running more creatures, the Stoneforge package is something to reconsider. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the 4x Lightning Bolt and 3x Lightning Helix, but I suppose the Jotun Grunt will be able to keep their Knights of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf's down in size substantially, and few other creatures in Legacy are outside the range of a Lightning bolt beyond those creatures..

These are all definitely things to keep in mind.

Although, I really enjoy the look of the last list I posted (or something along those lines)--so perhaps the best thing that happened from this discussion is the knowledge that I don't want to play a tempo deck, I want to be playing a mid-range control deck (which seems to be what I always gravitate towards whenever designing a deck haha).

Elspeth looks quite amazing, I think with her I wouldn't need to run a Stoneforge package since she accomplishes the buffing well enough. So I'm not sure if I would drop Ajani completely, as I enjoy his utility / power as well, I'll have to fiddle around with some things.

[Uncoordinated]

The last list posted looks faster than what I think your original idea was, even if you take out the Sligh-ish Lynxes and Hounds.



I feel like Figure of Destiny is counter-intuitive to winning quickly, and he looks more apt to a deck that wants to win slowly. If you're using your mana to disrupt your opponent, you won't have much left over to pump FOD. Furthermore if you are using Daze's and Wastelands, you just won't have as much mana available to utilize him to his fullest. So I think creatures who require no extra mana investment would be the most ideal.


I feel like this deck doesn't want to win quickly. He comes down early and can act as a mana sink later, so you have something to do during the opponent's turns when you're not Stifling and stuff. It's true that he isn't disruptive though.



I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the 4x Lightning Bolt and 3x Lightning Helix, but I suppose the Jotun Grunt will be able to keep their Knights of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf's down in size substantially, and few other creatures in Legacy are outside the range of a Lightning bolt beyond those creatures..


It's clear that Grunt is a contested creature in every deck. However, I think you'd be better off with a more permanent threat. I think Grunt would be great if your meta is really aggro-oriented. I still wouldn't rely on him to shrink Knights and Goyfs regularly. Unless you've got a Vengeant or something down they'll just let him fizzle and then fill up the 'yard again.



If you haven't look at Next Level Thresh, I think you might want to. It's doing what I think you want to do but with G instead of W - obviously for Goyf. R's strength lies more in board control and you don't really have an undercosted beater, so it'll naturally be slower unless you forego the midrange route and just focus on Countersligh like the list above.

[Kich867]

I'm left with this one creature spot, and as much as I do like the idea of Meddling Mage, I don't think it's safe to rely on it as a beater unless I also ran Elspeth, which would require me (to me at least) drop Ajani since I don't feel I can run both, which would shift me even further away from red and I might as well just be playing a UW mid-range control deck. Everything left over would be things that other colors do as well/better (beaters and removal).

Of the planeswalkers, I really enjoy Ajani's functionality the best, I like everything about him, so he's not something I'd like to lose, which makes me uncomfortable trying to fit Meddling Mage in when I feel like I'd rarely be able to swing with him. This was originally a huge post but I basically summed it down to just this concept.

I pose another question that's been running around in my head after seeing the tempo list from Iare; how plausible would it be for me to drop Brainstorm from my list in favor of more burn like his did? Running for instance, 4x Lightning Bolt / 3x Lightning Helix / 3x Ajani / 3-4x Grim Lavamancers means that burning my opponent to death is actually a legitimate alternate win, in fact it may even be the most efficient. In face of that, Meddling Mage could be run simply as disruption, which leaves Mirran Crusader as the odd-man out to be replaced be a more useful card rather than this guy that just hits things..

[Iare]

I'm left with this one creature spot, and as much as I do like the idea of Meddling Mage, I don't think it's safe to rely on it as a beater unless I also ran Elspeth, which would require me (to me at least) drop Ajani since I don't feel I can run both, which would shift me even further away from red and I might as well just be playing a UW mid-range control deck. Everything left over would be things that other colors do as well/better (beaters and removal).

Of the planeswalkers, I really enjoy Ajani's functionality the best, I like everything about him, so he's not something I'd like to lose, which makes me uncomfortable trying to fit Meddling Mage in when I feel like I'd rarely be able to swing with him. This was originally a huge post but I basically summed it down to just this concept.

I pose another question that's been running around in my head after seeing the tempo list from Iare; how plausible would it be for me to drop Brainstorm from my list in favor of more burn like his did? Running for instance, 4x Lightning Bolt / 3x Lightning Helix / 3x Ajani / 3-4x Grim Lavamancers means that burning my opponent to death is actually a legitimate alternate win, in fact it may even be the most efficient. In face of that, Meddling Mage could be run simply as disruption, which leaves Mirran Crusader as the odd-man out to be replaced be a more useful card rather than this guy that just hits things..

Brainstorm is really good but could probably go the way of the dinasour in your list. I would not cut Mirran if you are going more midrange, it plays both good defence and offense, and if you put in more burn you should always be able to keep oposing lavamancers from hitting him. I honestly think if you are going the slower more controlling route that brainstorm becoming Meddling mage and Ajani becoming Elspeth is the right call. Meddling mage can get in some beats occasionally, specially if you are packing lots of removal.

Currently you have the issue of wanting to run either 1. Swords to plowshares or 2 Path to exile, both of which have bad synergy with some other cards (Stifle + waste and Burn in general).

If you go with the burn them out plan you really need Mirran to be your prime beat stick. And, probably need more burn spells. I don't like decks that run Lightning bolt and swords to plowshares side by side and wasteland + path to exile is kinda dumb. Going the burn route is probably the best bet and using Mirran as a blocker when you need to (Or Elspeth tokens to chump) and mirran to attack.

Really you should decide what you want to do with the deck, but I am gonna sit here and convince you that Elspeth > Ajani until you listen. I cannot think of a single match up that Ajani will help you more than Elspeth. Even burning them out since Lavamancer can suddently fly and hit harder if need be O.o

P.S. A one of Kor Haven is super secret tech against other aggro control decks. Maybe the white legend bouncing land too, I can't remember its name and mine isn't in English >.> (Might not be enough room for these being three color but I would test them and see how they do.

[Iare]

How about I throw a decklist out there for American Midrange.

4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Figure of Destiny

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
2x BaneFire

3x Elspeth

4x Wasteland + 18 other lands.

It lacks the big nasty white removal spells but looks pretty decent to me. This list goes the more burnish route to victory :)

[Kich867]

Your list is actually pretty close to the list I arrived at if I were to lean more towards burn haha. Minus the banefire's, not a huge fan of the fireball-esque burns.

The list I arrived at last night:

3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Daze

3x Elspeth

4x Wasteland -- and with your suggestion, 1x Karakas, 1x Kor Haven + other lands (Karakas are the legendary bounce, could prove useful with Vendilion Clique).

I suppose the daze could be something else, if it were to be a burn I'd much prefer to run a 1 for 3 type burn: Chain Lightning etc.. or even looking back towards Fire and Ice, but I believe the damage would be more worth it.

I had thoughts of dropping Stifle for Brainstorm, as the deck isn't so oriented around disruption, but I believe with Meddling Mage / Vendilion Clique / Wasteland / Stifle, the disruption package is actually pretty nice and I wouldn't want to take away from that. I wouldn't run 4x Grim Lavamancers because I don't think I could support enough cards in the graveyard for more than 2 on the field over the course of the game, so 3 seems proper. It also opens up a third burn slot, and running 3x Chain Lightning, 4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Lightning Helix is a total of 33 damage from burns.

[Iare]

Honestly your list is probably better than the one I wrote up quick, but I do have a couple thoughts. I think you should reconsider running Figure of Destiny somewhere. Even if you never pump him up to 4, pinging away for an extra 2 a turn is nothing to sneeze at and you are really weak against heavy control decks like landstill atm, figure will help this. That being said if nothing else I think you need to change out Daze for another counter of some sort as your deck is pretty mana hungry at times and your running wastes which costs you a land drop already. I would put in spell snare in that slot personally as goofy is a real threat to you. You can't really cut the daze's for burn since you need the blue count for FOW so my suggestion is spell snare, spell pierce is good too but I think it's the weaker card overall.

Spell snare also helps by countering standstill which you really don't want to see hit the table across from you :)

[Kich867]

Agreed, I was somewhat weary of not being able to counter anything that had CC 3 or higher but, really I just need to reserve FOW's for those. Hopefully the stifles and wastelands will keep their mana low during the first few turns while I get my board established.

I'll probably sideboard in a 4th spell snare in the event of a deck like that.

For FOD the only things I can think of dropping are a bolt and a helix for him. Or a Mage and a Helix. Perhaps even a lavamancer and a mage? It's just kind of hard for me to find a spot for him, as I feel that list is fairly solid after the Daze > Spell Snare change. I like the 8 burns and the creature base..

It may just come down to a playstyle choice, I just value the Clique over FOD. It seems like a more useful card that can get far more damage in much more quickly and disrupt their hand.

In my head, I run into scenarios where a goofy gets through (thank you by the way, that will eternally be part of my vernacular now haha) or a knight gets through and now I'm left with Figure and Mirran Crusader on my board. I can't attack with FOD, and it would take several turns until I can.

If I had a Clique and a Crusader on the board however, I could swing freely with the Clique. I would say undoubtedly, landing a turn 1 FOD against landstill would be amazing, being able to pump him under the standstill and end up with a powerful creature is solid, but I think my deck would be more inclined to counter / get rid of the standstills in the first place via Meddling Mage / Clique / Spell Snare / FoW rather than work around them.

[puppektion]

From what I'm seeing from how the decklists are 'evolving', it really just looks like you're playing a bad zoo. I say 'bad' because you've dropped your goyf and Knight of the Reliquary... well, basically all of the good creatures for some moderate disruption, and to card selection/advantage to abuse it with.

I'm seeing Mirran Crusader, but nothing to really abuse it with; Elspeth is great and all, but it seems lackluster IMO. Stoneforge + Jitte/SoFI allows much more abuse with the Crusader, and also allows Batterskull, which seems pretty solid right now.

[Kich867]

From what I'm seeing from how the decklists are 'evolving', it really just looks like you're playing a bad zoo. I say 'bad' because you've dropped your goyf and Knight of the Reliquary... well, basically all of the good creatures for some moderate disruption, and to card selection/advantage to abuse it with.

I'm seeing Mirran Crusader, but nothing to really abuse it with; Elspeth is great and all, but it seems lackluster IMO. Stoneforge + Jitte/SoFI allows much more abuse with the Crusader, and also allows Batterskull, which seems pretty solid right now.

In particular, what about the deck says Zoo to you outside of the red? Or more specifically, Grim Lavamancer / Lightning Helix? Lightning Bolt seems rather common in any deck splashing red, lightning helix appears in many lists, so it really just seems like Burn / Zoo that play those cards...

I mean I guess it just seems like to me you could argue that about any deck that integrates any set of cards that is commonly found in any other deck, no?

Zoo's focus from what I understand is threat density. Putting out a lot of cheap overcosted beaters and overwhelming the opponent. I'm just wondering what about my deck says that to you.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Where is Jace?? Where is Batterskull?? I think this deck can succeed if you focus on the best parts: keeping merfolk down through bolts and Lavamancers, and having enough land disruption and counters to fight combo.

Elspeth is okay, but there's really no excuse not to play Jace. He's just too good at the things a deck like this desperately needs: keeping large green critters off the board and KO'ing an opponent once you've stunted his game with counters and mana denial.

Here is a start:

4x Jace
4x Stoneforge
4x Lavamancer
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Body and Mind

Mirran Crusader is pretty alright too I suppose, it hates on the colors that are strongest against you. I wouldn't play more than 2 or 3, however. You might want to consider Ancestral Visions to keep the gas on as well. Drawing 4 cards in the mid-game is just ball-breaking in an attrition/mana denial deck like this.

Overall, an interesting concept, but you need to stick to proven cards and attack a few angles of the meta to push it to being playable.

[puppektion]

Zoo's focus from what I understand is threat density. Putting out a lot of cheap overcosted beaters and overwhelming the opponent. I'm just wondering what about my deck says that to you.

That's why I called it 'bad zoo'. You slowed the deck down significantly and took out the scariest threats for moderate disruption. No card advantage, no filtering, just some disruption. What's the point in playing blue if you're not seeing more cards than a deck *not* playing blue?


Where is Jace?? Where is Batterskull?? I think this deck can succeed if you focus on the best parts: keeping merfolk down through bolts and Lavamancers, and having enough land disruption and counters to fight combo.

Elspeth is okay, but there's really no excuse not to play Jace. He's just too good at the things a deck like this desperately needs: keeping large green critters off the board and KO'ing an opponent once you've stunted his game with counters and mana denial.

Here is a start:

4x Jace
4x Stoneforge
4x Lavamancer
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Body and Mind

Mirran Crusader is pretty alright too I suppose, it hates on the colors that are strongest against you. I wouldn't play more than 2 or 3, however. You might want to consider Ancestral Visions to keep the gas on as well. Drawing 4 cards in the mid-game is just ball-breaking in an attrition/mana denial deck like this.

Overall, an interesting concept, but you need to stick to proven cards and attack a few angles of the meta to push it to being playable.

I'll agree with most of your points, but will argue against Body and Mind. Sword of Fire and Ice seems strictly better in most cases; it provides card advantage and eats merfolk :P

[Lord_Cyrus]

This is true, but I fear large green monsters whenever I play a deck like this. If there is a shortage of Junk/Zoo in your metagame, then certainly SoFI is superior.

[Kich867]

That's why I called it 'bad zoo'. You slowed the deck down significantly and took out the scariest threats for moderate disruption. No card advantage, no filtering, just some disruption. What's the point in playing blue if you're not seeing more cards than a deck *not* playing blue?



I'll agree with most of your points, but will argue against Body and Mind. Sword of Fire and Ice seems strictly better in most cases; it provides card advantage and eats merfolk :P

Would you say that the original deck concpet (perhaps with Jace instead of Ajani) was more of a focused deck over the list that we came upon towards the end? And if so, would it even be worth it to run red if there's nothing that it really offers--in the event lightning bolt and lightning helix and ajani and grim lavamancer could all be replaced with better removal / better control / card advantage / better beaters? (That somewhat answers my own question but I'm just interested to hear points of view on this, I like the discussion)

[Iare]

Looking at this deck as an aggro deck would just be wrong. This has developed into a an aggro control deck and has all the pieces it needs. It reminds me alot of U/W/r Fish decks of old. Now fish refers to merfolk but old school fish decks were good and there are alot of newer tools to use. Mirran is a 2 turn clock or less with Elspeth on the table. The goal of the deck as it is built is to disrupt > kill where Zoo has the plan of Kill > disrupt if we can or need to. They are fundementally different at the core. If you play this deck like Zoo you are going to lose, because that isn't the point. Now that being said the lack of card draw does seem to be a bit of an issue, but the list is looking good and very tight atm.

You should do up some testing results when you get time and some thoughts. If you find some things underperforming or feel you need some more back breakers you could try shoehorning a couple brainstorm or fact or fictions in :) Right now he has Vendilion Clique + Karakas for card draw if he needs some, its not much but its something.

Disclaimer: I have no intention of playing this deck, I just thought I would help out with constructing it. I personally think Elspeth > Jace in this deck as it stands since Elspeth kills quicker, and provides board presence which we actually care about here.

[Kich867]

(I appreciate all the input from everyone by the way, as I'm very new to the Legacy format)

I'm feeling the lack of a card like brainstorm.

My idea towards this is to just kind of tone everything down here and there. I dropped a Mage, a Lightning Bolt, a Helix, and a Misstep for 4 Brainstorms. I may switch the Mage back in to drop Lavamancer's down, but I'm not sure, the disruption may be far more important.

//Creatures:

3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Meddling Mage
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Vendilion Clique

//Spells:

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
3x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
3x Lightning Helix
3x Lightning Bolt

//Planeswalkers:

3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Lands:

4x Wasteland
1x Karakas
1x Kor Haven
+ 16 others

Brainstorm really is too good not to run so it has to make the list somehow. This way, I keep red presence and game plan along-side the flying beater/disruption game plan and most likely increase the consistency of the deck because Brainstorm is godlike.. I'll be running plenty of fetches to support it as well.

I am a little weary of the lack of card draw, but really I can't think of any outside of Brainstorm that I could even fit into the deck, and when the choice is between Brainstorm and FOF or AK or Impulse, Brainstorm seems like the obvious choice (although Impulse would certainly help me dig for an Elspeth pretty hard, so that's always an option, but Brainstorm is most likely better).

I don't own all of these cards at the moment, so much of it will have to be proxied, my land-base is looking something like this: (Given that every fetch can hit every color mana, I'm just running a playset of fetches I already have, the Arid Mesa's are less expensive than Scalding Tarn's and I figure dividing them up would be a more wise decision.)

//Fetches:
4x Flooded Strand
2x Arid Mesa
1x Scalding Tarn

//Utility:
1x Karakas
1x Kor Haven
4x Wasteland

//Manabase:
3x Tundra
1x Plateau
2x Volcanic Island

//Basics:
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain

My plan is to proxy this deck up, then proxy the better performing Deck To Beat lists and get to playtesting with a partner. I would love suggestions towards the land distribution. I'm open to dropping the Kor Haven for another Tundra or Volcanic Island, Plateau is a much weaker land option for me but I feel it should be there.