No more blue stabbing please

[Diprivan]

Open rant:

So, what's wrong with people? Every week I see at least 1 thread about "blue is so overpowered, let's ban it".

Why do people complain about blue, but don't care when goblins kills on it's turn 3 or GW goodstuff starts messing with combat math and uses GSZ just to hose you once again?

I'll tell you what's wrong: people don't want to innovate anymore. I play friggin TES, do you think I'm happy with MM? Just think of something new, damnit.

DISCLAIMER: (revealing the future here, so don't read if you don't want to know what's going to happen)

Over the next few months, the same people will post following threads:
a) let's ban fow (again)
b) let's discuss 'fair' cards that'll keep blue in check ("what about::0: I hate blue: split second, target player loses the game if he has a blue card in his deck. gnargl gnargl")
c) let's kick blue out the game, 4 colors is much more fun. ("wouldn't it be nice if everybody played aggro and we just could slap creatures at each other? RAAWR")
d) All of the above

The funniest thing about this: everytime it are the same people who bring these things up.

So who are you? What's with all the hatred against blue mages?
I don't understand it.

Or do I...
This... can't be true... I should have known it all the time...
It all makes sense to me know. You're all using alter egos. In real life you're all the same person and the only one who can have such a hatred against blue mages...

...








http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IcA7gDYO8NQ/TV9FLCLbQZI/AAAAAAAAAPI/CGZkJmnr0iI/s1600/Gargamel.jpg

Gargamel!!! You're back!

end rant

[Admiral_Arzar]

lol

Yeah.

[Gui]

There should be a format named "Only Blue" where it was only allowed every blue card in the game, xD

On a more serious note, let's ban blue, it's too overpowered.

On a less serious note, I would be really really happy if WotC, once in a while, favored monocolor decks, like, building cards that function only if you control certain-basic and stuff like Blood Moons and Back to Basics and Price of progresss, but more diverse, useful against Basiclands.dec, as for Magus of the Moones, that at least are 2/2 bears... That said, let's ban non-basic Islands, they are too overpowered.

[GGoober]

This thread is awesome, because watch a few hours from now, it'll degrade to yet another OMGBANBLUE. Calling it before it happens!

[majikal]

The Source: Your Source for the Same Old Shit That's Been Argued to Death Since 1993.

[TossUsToLions]

I agree with you that people need to innovate. The current meta is really easy to hate out right now. Merfolk is considered to be the best deck and there are so many cards that just tear that deck to threads. Play Lavamncer, Lightning Bolts, extra copies of REB/Pyroblasts in the board, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte, Sofi, etc. You could even play them all in the same deck...

Against the Landstill control decks cards such as Blood Moon and Back to Basics just absolutely wreck them. Innovating is not that hard, people just want to play their pet decks. I play TES too, but in some metas it just isn't the right call. People need to learn to adapt; either change your favorite deck a little bit to deal with your bad matchups, or create a new deck that is good against your own personal meta

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually started out this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20995-Blue-needs-a-Nerf&p=555172&highlight=#post555172) thinking the numbers supported the idea that blue isn't particularly overly-dominant. Its number in SCG Open top 8s were not drastically out of whack with other colors; most decks played blue, but most also played green and black. White wasn't too far behind. Red is the only color that really sucked.

Then I actually narrowed my focus to the winners and 11 out of 13 were blue decks. And the other two were Goblins decks from the first few post-Survival tournaments.

If blue is winning every major tournament there's undoubtedly a problem, and accusing people of whining for pointing it out is just churlish.

On the other hand, the dust indeed has yet to settle at all over Mental Misstep. So we'll see.

Alternately, if they want to restore red they could just unban Goblin Recruiter and Worldgorger Dragon

[wcm8]

On a less serious note, I would be really really happy if WotC, once in a while, favored monocolor decks, like, building cards that function only if you control certain-basic and stuff like Blood Moons and Back to Basics and Price of progresss, but more diverse, useful against Basiclands.dec, as for Magus of the Moones, that at least are 2/2 bears... That said, let's ban non-basic Islands, they are too overpowered.

Completely disagree. Having splashes enables more variety in the format. If there were a critical mass of effective non-basic hosers, more people would opt to run only mono-color decks, within which are only a handful of basic strategies. I think wasteland and the other various tempest/saga era hosers are plenty enough to make people concerned with the stability of their manabases, and yet limited enough that the danger of playing two or three colors is outweighed by its strategic benefit.

What they should print first are good cards in the other four colors that make using blue as the splash not always the best option.

Summoning creatures is only one aspect of the game. I don't understand why newer players (this isn't directed at anyone here) can't grasp the idea that a game called Magic is heavily based around casting spells from a flavor perspective. Aggro players should rejoice that force of will exists -- sure, maybe the blue mage will 2-for-1 himself when he forces your turn 1 nacatl, but that same FoW stopped you from seeing storm, reanimator, hive mind, grind stone and other various combo decks every single round.

[android]

Blue is so weak. When are we going to see more love for blue. It's like all Wizards cares about lately is combo and aggro. Help a brotha blue mage out. Blue needs a better finisher (and don't give me that Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever printed nonsense). MUC 4eva!!!

<- I was reading this not 1 year ago on this very same board.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Alternately, if they want to restore red they could just unban Goblin Recruiter and Worldgorger Dragon

I think they would have no issue unbanning Dragon if the deck didn't cause inordinate amounts of draws in tournaments. It's a pity, because I really want to play that deck, and it seems fair/disruptable enough.

[Nihil Credo]

Alternately, if they want to restore red they could just unban Goblin Recruiter and Worldgorger Dragon
Yes, Worldgorger Dragon would certainly bring more Mountains into the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes, Worldgorger Dragon would certainly bring more Mountains into the format.

Although ideally you could dump Sliver Queen or Ambastard into your yard through some other method, without Bazaar, you pretty much would have to run Ghitu Fire.

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure how else you'd build the deck. Mainly Goblin Recruiter though, I don't know how good Dragon would be in this meta without Bazaars.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Honestly I can't stand this garbage. Speed Zoo is and has been a top competitive deck for years. It is favored against Merfolk and a lot of other blue decks. At no time in the last 3 years has casting creatures and winning through the attack phase been impossible in Legacy. The real reason blue is so strong is because many (though certainly not all) good players enjoy playing blue decks. Counterspells and card selection give you more intellectual control over this game of chance called Magic that we all play. If you don't like "thinking" in this fashion then just play mono-red Burn or Dredge or something. The rest of us will continue to enjoy our Islands.

[Bardo]

The real reason blue is so strong is because many (though certainly not all) good players enjoy playing blue decks. Counterspells and card selection give you more intellectual control over this game of chance called Magic that we all play. If you don't like "thinking" in this fashion then just play mono-red Burn or Dredge or something. The rest of us will continue to enjoy our Islands.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. Good players enjoy winning most, but if there's not an overwhelming reason to play <Deck X>, players will play what they enjoy and decks that give them the ability to outmaneuver weaker players. Usually, that involves Islands, whether they be tropical or volcanic, or seas under the ground or "biomes where the tree growth is hindered by low temperatures and short growing seasons" (according to Wikipedia).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly I can't stand this garbage. Speed Zoo is and has been a top competitive deck for years. It is favored against Merfolk and a lot of other blue decks. At no time in the last 3 years has casting creatures and winning through the attack phase been impossible in Legacy. The real reason blue is so strong is because many (though certainly not all) good players enjoy playing blue decks. Counterspells and card selection give you more intellectual control over this game of chance called Magic that we all play. If you don't like "thinking" in this fashion then just play mono-red Burn or Dredge or something. The rest of us will continue to enjoy our Islands.

There isn't a significant difference in the mental challenge of playing combo, control, aggro, aggro-control, combo-aggro, or whatever.

Some decks are more forgiving of misplays than others, but this isn't true of archetypes.

[Lord_Cyrus]

There isn't a significant difference in the mental challenge of playing combo, control, aggro, aggro-control, combo-aggro, or whatever.

Some decks are more forgiving of misplays than others, but this isn't true of archetypes.

Not mental challenge, that's not what I said. The difference is in the level of information, control, and intellectual stimulation. For a lot of players I know, the little mini-game that goes on whenever one casts brainstorm is immensely appealing on an intellectual level. Other colors don't offer this variety of choice on a consistent basis.

[Richard Cheese]

Not mental challenge, that's not what I said. The difference is in the level of information, control, and intellectual stimulation. For a lot of players I know, the little mini-game that goes on whenever one casts brainstorm is immensely appealing on an intellectual level. Other colors don't offer this variety of choice on a consistent basis.

So Jace 2.0 is just mental masturbation then?

[Lord_Cyrus]

So Jace 2.0 is just mental masturbation then?

Pretty much!! You can either play with yourself, or you can play with your opponent's drawstep for extra lulz. It also helps that it wins games.

[DrJones]

It's not that I hate blue, in fact, blue is one of my favourite colors.

It's that I hate games that can be resumed as "No items, fox only, final destination" and "Akuma is fair, your a n00b for not playing it", and I know that Force of Will breaks the format because I PLAY WITH IT, which is why I can say with first-hand knowledge what's wrong with it, why the decks that play it have so much advantage against all the others, that it fuels combo instead of fighting it, and that due to its existence, the game is much worse and far less fun than what it could be.

So, I hope that FoW gets axed this year thanks to the arrival of Mental Misstep, which fixes a lot of things that are wrong about FoW. If that happened, the people that enjoy blue-centric formats will still be able to play it in Vintage, but the format will be a whole lot better, a whole more fun, and a whole more popular. In fact, it would look like "Overextended" (Mercadian Masques onward) which is right now a more diverse format than this one due to the lack of cards like FOW, Show and Tell and LED.

One of the advantages of bringing back balance among colors, is that blue staples will become far cheaper. Players that love blue will be able to play blue without paying five times more for their cards.

Another advantage is that it will increase variance between games. Game design theory says that variance is what keeps players interested in a game. That principle explains one of the reasons why Vintage isn't played even with proxies or on MWS: most of the decks are a carbon copy of each other, minus a few cards.

Also, because each color is tied to a player psychographic and specific playstyles, a more balanced format would attract more players. Currently, it attracts mostly players of one single psychographic, which is why forums like this one shows the false consensus that the format is perfect as is, and that it shouldn't change. But that's true only for players within that psychographic.

So in sum, I can both enjoy blue and NOT ENJOY the way the format is going. And if I spend time developing nonblue decks is not because I hate blue, but because the more competitive nonblue decks in the format, the better for everyone.

[Lord_Cyrus]

And the problem with your analysis, sir, is you overlook the fact that this FoW-loving, blue-centric "psychographic" substantially overlaps with the psychographic of Magic players as a whole. In my experience people who love Magic cards often tend to be drawn to the intellectual/pyschological profile of the Blue mage. Just look at how often players try to "find the best blue deck" in any given format. Caw-Blade is symptomatic of this. So is the current push towards hard-control like Landstill in Legacy.

If you truly believe differently, I challenge you contest my viewpoint and back it up with hard data!

[Bardo]

So, I hope that FoW gets axed this year thanks to the arrival of Mental Misstep, which fixes a lot of things that are wrong about FoW. If that happened, the people that enjoy blue-centric formats will still be able to play it in Vintage, but the format will be a whole lot better, a whole more fun, and a whole more popular. In fact, it would look like "Overextended" (Mercadian Masques onward) which is right now a more diverse format than this one due to the lack of cards like FOW, Show and Tell and LED.

Force is powerful, but hymn'ing yourself and paying a point of life to stop a card is perfectly fair. It answers threats, isn't a threat in its own right (unless you're casting it at low life). It's like arguing that StP should be banned.

Brainstorm, I get, does things that are arguably too good. I don't agree, but I can find some appreciation for the argument. But arguing against FoW is just confusing.

[Phoenix Ignition]

How many of your posts on this subject do I need to read before going insane and responding? Rhetorical question, but I think it was close to 4.

STOP TRYING TO SOUND INTELLIGENT. Your arguments are the perfect example of why a shred of knowledge is much more dangerous than none.


FoW [...] fuels combo instead of fighting it, and that due to its existence, the game is much worse and far less fun than what it could be.

FoW fuels combo? Only very few combos use FoW, and the ones that do are mostly 2 card combos that have troubles being consistent. They have troubles with consistency because they decide to waste deck slots for FoW instead of searching/drawing cards and therefore have a harder time even getting to their combo.


In fact, it would look like "Overextended" (Mercadian Masques onward) which is right now a more diverse format than this one due to the lack of cards like FOW, Show and Tell and LED.
Is that why everyone is flocking to Overextended? Last I saw, it was as much of a flop as regular extended. Also, honestly, if you think it's such a better format why wouldn't you just go play that and stop advocating changing Legacy into something that already exists?


Another advantage is that it will increase variance between games. Game design theory says that variance is what keeps players interested in a game. That principle explains one of the reasons why Vintage isn't played even with proxies or on MWS: most of the decks are a carbon copy of each other, minus a few cards.

My god, I wish you either understood math better or could at least draw the correct conclusions from it. Variance can be caused by many things, if your argument is just that increased variance = better (like you've conveyed) then you're just flat out wrong. Changing the amount of same cards you could have per deck from 4 to 1 would increase variance drastically. Ever play highlander or EDH? Every game would be completely different because your deck now has 40 different cards in it instead of just ~10 different cards. The variance would be enormous, but it would also not be fun.

Variance =/= interest in a game.


Also, because each color is tied to a player psychographic and specific playstyles, a more balanced format would attract more players. Currently, it attracts mostly players of one single psychographic, which is why forums like this one shows the false consensus that the format is perfect as is, and that it shouldn't change. But that's true only for players within that psychographic.

Ungh, anyone else cringe over this paragraph? How do you know what "psychographic" is being drawn to legacy right now? Do you really believe each color's "psychographic" playstyle is going to attract the same number of people? As it turns out in literally every marketing field, people in general are not going to spread evenly into all different types of "psychographs." People like similar things, maybe blue being a good color is drawing more of an audience than ever because the intellectual games you have to play with blue may be the exact thing drawing every magic player in to magic anyway.

There is a false consensus that the format is perfect as is? Not only do you have absolutely no evidence of this, you really think that you have a majority of people backing you on that subject. This is just flat out astounding, I can never believe how people can just form an opinion and automatically think they are so correct that not only will they not believe in evidence to the contrary, but they actually believe that a majority of people are backing their opinion.

[Gui]

Completely disagree. Having splashes enables more variety in the format. If there were a critical mass of effective non-basic hosers, more people would opt to run only mono-color decks, within which are only a handful of basic strategies. I think wasteland and the other various tempest/saga era hosers are plenty enough to make people concerned with the stability of their manabases, and yet limited enough that the danger of playing two or three colors is outweighed by its strategic benefit.

I rarely see people advocating for less colors than 3, unless they are running some kind anti-nonbasic themselves. Besides, try to build a single colored deck and post it here - I give you 10 posts before the discussion "so, what will we splash" start.
Besides, every good solution printed in other colors are simply added to the 3c strategies, so this changes nothing. To be honest, most colors have good answers on their own for a lot of things, it's just that these get better with the backup of a defense able to stop whatever, read, counterspells.

All that said, I don't think anything should be banned, or that the format sux, I just said I would enjoy if they printed better cards for monocolor strategies, as much as they print things for multicolor like Wild Nacatl or Maelstrom Pulse. Cards that work better if you have basic lands would be nice =)

[Lord_Cyrus]

Ungh, anyone else cringe over this paragraph? How do you know what "psychographic" is being drawn to legacy right now? Do you really believe each color's "psychographic" playstyle is going to attract the same number of people? As it turns out in literally every marketing field, people in general are not going to spread evenly into all different types of "psychographs." People like similar things, maybe blue being a good color is drawing more of an audience than ever because the intellectual games you have to play with blue may be the exact thing drawing every magic player in to magic anyway.

This was, and is, the thrust of my argument. Well stated. Magic players love cards, and they generally like seeing more of them in any given game and having more choices about which cards they want to play. The fact that blue is best at these abilities may be a design flaw but it does not justify banning key blue cards to make the game more "enjoyable" for a minority of players who view blue cards as unfair.

I would also point out the evidence that WoTC is a company that likes its profit margins, and yet they continue to print many strong blue cards. Obviously, they do not believe that these cards or strategies are driving any significant portion of players away from the game. On the contrary, exciting new blue cards keep a large portion of blue-loving players buying new sets, and this generates money for WoTC. Turning around and banning these same cards makes no economic sense, and therefore it won't happen.

[Bardo]

I would also point out the evidence that WoTC is a company that likes its profit margins, and yet they continue to print many strong blue cards. Obviously, they do not believe that these cards or strategies are driving any significant portion of players away from the game. On the contrary, exciting new blue cards keep a large portion of blue-loving players buying new sets, and this generates money for WoTC. Turning around and banning these same cards makes no economic sense, and therefore it won't happen.

Magic is only profitable because of kitchen table Magic players; not professional players, not people who post on online discussion forums, or travel inconvenient distances to play in tournaments, or heck, even play in tournaments at all. People who just like playing with friends and trading. The silent majority, if you will.

While the plural of anecdote is not "data," from personal experience, most casual players are not measuring the fun of the game based on the strength of blue control cards. In fact, I'll argue the opposite. Same reason land destruction is not so good these past few years.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Magic is only profitable because of kitchen table Magic players; not professional players, not people who post on online discussion forums, or travel inconvenient distances to play in tournaments, or heck, even play in tournaments at all. People who just like playing with friends and trading. The silent majority, if you will.

While the plural of anecdote is not "data," from personal experience, most casual players are not measuring the fun of the game based on the strength of blue control cards. In fact, I'll argue the opposite. Same reason land destruction is not so good these past few years.

I will accept that this is true. WoTC also prints cards desirable to casual players. There are many examples, too numerous to name. Anything featuring nice art and decent power with creature type "Angel" or "Dragon" seems to fit the bill.

But it's a bit silly to claim that the company is ignorant of the sales potential provided by Spikey blue cards. How many boxes of Worldwake (an otherwise lackluster set) were bought by folks hoping to score a Jace? That is definitely a quantity that WoTC pays attention to, because those sales (at whatever level) were driven by a single card. If you could print 1-2 cards and ensure that an extra 2-3,000 boxes and fatpacks sold, wouldn't you do it?

But let's abandon that line of reasoning and turn the question around. Regardless of justification, how likely is that Force of Will, Mental Misstep or Jace the Mind Sculptor will be banned in Legacy in the next 2 years? Not all 3 mind you, but just one of those cards. I'd be willing to bet $500 that none of them will be banned. That's the cold, hard truth. How many of you would be willing to open your wallet to bet against me? Probably not many....

This being the case, people should either 1) get used to Legacy with blue as it is, or 2) find another format like EDH or Overextended.

[dahcmai]

Go Blue. Screw that whole turning guys sideways thing.



I'd like blue more if we had a little more clock time. Damn draws.

[Diprivan]

Lol, props to the guy who said this was going to end into another ban blue thread.

So, as I opened the thread, some recommendations:
1. Discussion about blue banning is for another thread there are enough serial threads to discuss manbearpig
2. This thread is for trolling so don't post here if you can't make me lol.
3. Dr Jones and some others should change their pic into gargamel, just for sports (and epic lulz:wink:)

[menace13]

Format is unplayable, it's all Time Walks and Strip Mines. Ban Blue. I have had it with FoW and Brainstorm being the most played cards for years running.

[Fsk]

FoW fuels combo? Only very few combos use FoW, and the ones that do are mostly 2 card combos that have troubles being consistent. They have troubles with consistency because they decide to waste deck slots for FoW instead of searching/drawing cards and therefore have a harder time even getting to their combo.


What?

Except dredge and Storm, two deck relying on very specific mecanics, every combo deck and its mom play FOW. Ever heard of spiral tide, show and tell, painter or reanimate? Those are the combo decks that actually win tournaments. One of the reason being the protection/search provided by their blue shell make them incredibly hard to hate..

There is nothing more boring than building a combo deck in legacy right now :
4 fow
4 brainstorm
*insert combo here*
4 daze
3 intuition

[Rune]

Format is unplayable, it's all Time Walks and Strip Mines. Ban Blue. I have had it with FoW and Brainstorm being the most played cards for years running.

Don't forget Wastelands. Every blue deck effectively runs 4 Strip Mines and 8 Wastelands as its land destruction package. When you couple that with the 12 Time Walks they also play, you really have a problem. However, if we do some close reading of the Great One's posts, we might find a solution.



Mental Misstep is wasteland.

The format is unplayable right now because it allows some decks to run 4 strip mines and 4 wastelands. And you can't play around that strategy unless you play a deck with too many (or no) lands.

So, playing either too many lands or no lands at all will fix our problem. If we play no lands, they can't Strip Mine us. If we play too many lands, there are too many lands for them to Strip Mine. Problem, blue assholes?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YpS-KftnKNY/TN0ymkDoXMI/AAAAAAAAAFA/qR_6OxBXN0U/s1600/troll%2Bscience.jpg

[DragoFireheart]

I still don't see how Brainstorm is even remotely as powerful as other banned cards like SotF, MT, Mox-X, or Black Lotus.

[troopatroop]

I still don't see how Brainstorm is even remotely as powerful as other banned cards like SotF, MT, Mox-X, or Black Lotus.

It's not powerful in the same way. It says U - Draw 3 Cards, and that's as powerful at Mystical Tutor.

Brainstorm is bonkers, so it makes sense for everyone to play it. I remember when I first played Zoo against my roomate with Dreadstill, and he was casting Brainstorms. I was jealous, because my deck couldn't do that, and I recognised the disadvantage I was at. Brainstorm makes it really attractive to play blue, because no other color has anything like it. I've since added Brainstorm to Zoo, and voila! It's a better deck.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, other decks still can do Divining Top, which is surely a bit more expensive but then again is permanent.
Does any one do that? Nope.
Why does nobody bitch about white?
White has StP, PtE and other goodstuff. Why not hate on it?
Or green, holy shit, green has Tarmogoyf. And if u combine Green with White.... there comes KoTr.

Nuff' trolled. Blue is good, but most of the times its the other colors spells that u dig for with Brainstorm.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Top doesn't do the same thing. Top lets you pay mana to keep scrying. Sylvan Library lets you scry for free, but only during your upkeep.

Brainstorm is a one off, but it doesn't just dig for a card, it lets you take a free mull on your hand.

If you're trying to fight Zoo, no other card can, for less than three mana, take this hand;

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Force of Will
Polluted Delta

And make it this hand:

Polluted Delta
Tarmogoyf
Swords to Plowshares
Knight of the Reliquary

That's why Brainstorm is the best card in the format. Not just because it's really good at digging, although it is at that, but because with shuffles effects, which are numerous and built into your very mana base, it becomes a better free mulligan. It lets you take a draw in the classic poker sense.


eta: Also I'd like to disassociate myself from any remarks about Force being banned. The only thing they need to do to Force is put it in a duel deck.

[DragoFireheart]

So Brainstorm should be banned because it's the best card? I don' think it crosses the threshold on being broken. Especially considering that the current tier 1 deck, Merfolk, doesn't even run it.

[troopatroop]

So Brainstorm should be banned because it's the best card? I don' think it crosses the threshold on being broken. Especially considering that the current tier 1 deck, Merfolk, doesn't even run it.

I don't want them to ban Brainstorm, I think it's the most fun card in Legacy. I just can't understand why I (anyone) shouldn't play it.

[joemauer]

If Wotc bans the color blue no one would have to debate over which blue cards are the broken ones needing banning. Just saying.

[Diprivan]

So, playing either too many lands or no lands at all will fix our problem. If we play no lands, they can't Strip Mine us. If we play too many lands, there are too many lands for them to Strip Mine. Problem, blue assholes?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YpS-KftnKNY/TN0ymkDoXMI/AAAAAAAAAFA/qR_6OxBXN0U/s1600/troll%2Bscience.jpg

Sir, you are the first in this thread who made me laugh and therefore you are the first who gets the goal of this thread: have a good laugh.

I salute you

[Forbiddian]

If Wotc bans the color blue no one would have to debate over which blue cards are the broken ones needing banning. Just saying.

Land Tax is fucking overpowered, thank god it's banned!
...
Er wait, blue is still unbanned. Carry on with your discussion, then.

[Hitman82]

Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.

[joemauer]

Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.


So are you for blue or against blue?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.

Bro, if you don't like the thread, GTFO. Also, it's annoying when you post the same stupid message in multiple threads.

[Diprivan]

So are you for blue or against blue?

Made my day, lol

This thread is a reaction against all the people who think that based on 2 big tournaments MM has changed the format forever and go !!!!1!!!!BLUE IS OVERPOWERED, the sky is falling and I need mi mommi!!!!1!!!!

This is the Bob Marley thread of metagame discussion => relax or leave (smoke pot and then come back here)

[FieryBalrog]

Ah, yes, the classic "well who cares if blue is ridiculously overpowered, because smart people don't want to play anything else anyway".

You ever thought that the reason the Spike psychograph and the "I <3 blue" psychograph overlap so much is because.. drumroll... blue has always been the overpowered Fortunate Son?

Spikes who enjoyed playing other things either learned to love blue or learned to love losing.

[GGoober]

This thread is awesome, because watch a few hours from now, it'll degrade to yet another OMGBANBLUE. Calling it before it happens!

Quoting myself because I'm awesome and this is hilarious:

PAGE 1: Not so bad
#7

Alternately, if they want to restore red they could just unban Goblin Recruiter and Worldgorger Dragon

#9

I think they would have no issue unbanning Dragon if the deck didn't cause inordinate amounts of draws in tournaments.

#19 (DrJones really started the derailing!)

So, I hope that FoW gets axed this year thanks to the arrival of Mental Misstep, which fixes a lot of things that are wrong about FoW


PAGE 2: Lol we're seeing more discussions on OMGBANBLUE
#23

All that said, I don't think anything should be banned, or that the format sux, I just said I would enjoy if they printed better cards for monocolor strategies, as much as they print things for multicolor like Wild Nacatl or Maelstrom Pulse. Cards that work better if you have basic lands would be nice =)

#28

Lol, props to the guy who said this was going to end into another ban blue thread.

So, as I opened the thread, some recommendations:
1. Discussion about blue banning is for another thread there are enough serial threads to discuss manbearpig
2. This thread is for trolling so don't post here if you can't make me lol.
3. Dr Jones and some others should change their pic into gargamel, just for sports (and epic lulz)
:D

#29

Format is unplayable, it's all Time Walks and Strip Mines. Ban Blue. I have had it with FoW and Brainstorm being the most played cards for years running.

#32

I still don't see how Brainstorm is even remotely as powerful as other banned cards like SotF, MT, Mox-X, or Black Lotus.
Dragofireheart rubbing the salt into banlists again!

#36

So Brainstorm should be banned because it's the best card? I don' think it crosses the threshold on being broken. Especially considering that the current tier 1 deck, Merfolk, doesn't even run it.
He's at it again!

#37

I don't want them to ban Brainstorm, I think it's the most fun card in Legacy. I just can't understand why I (anyone) shouldn't play it.

#38

If Wotc bans the color blue no one would have to debate over which blue cards are the broken ones needing banning. Just saying.

#40

Land Tax is fucking overpowered, thank god it's banned!
...
Er wait, blue is still unbanned. Carry on with your discussion, then.


PAGE 3:
#41

Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.
SALUTE!

#42

So are you for blue or against blue?

Also Lord Cyrus called Speed Zoo beating blue and we have it in SCG Indianapolis with Zoo/Gobs coming 1st/2nd in a field of blue.

My conlusion for this thread:

OMG can we just ban blue already so we won't have these posts/threads popping up at the end of every Legacy event?

[DragoFireheart]

Quoting myself because I'm awesome and this is hilarious:

PAGE 1: Not so bad
#7


#9


#19 (DrJones really started the derailing!)



PAGE 2: Lol we're seeing more discussions on OMGBANBLUE
#23


#28

:D

#29


#32

Dragofireheart rubbing the salt into banlists again!

#36

He's at it again!

#37


#38


#40


PAGE 3:
#41

SALUTE!

#42


Also Lord Cyrus called Speed Zoo beating blue and we have it in SCG Indianapolis with Zoo/Gobs coming 1st/2nd in a field of blue.

My conlusion for this thread:

OMG can we just ban blue already so we won't have these posts/threads popping up at the end of every Legacy event?


It's not like predicting such an outcome would be hard to guess anyways. People love to bitch about blue.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's not like predicting such an outcome would be hard to guess anyways. People love to bitch about blue.

15 out of 15 of the past major Legacy tournaments I am aware of were won by blue decks.

Really, if not for the fact that Mental Misstep upends the metagame, it would be nonsensical to do anything but call for some sort of action.

I think people that really want to hang onto their Brainstorms at all costs are using typical misdirection techniques by trying to label valid criticisms about blue's over-dominance at the moment as "whining" or "bitching."

Yet all this amounts to is doing what Wizards has always done in every non-Vintage format, which is intervene to keep the format somewhat balanced.

[bakofried]

The Invitational had the top 2 spots taken by Zoo and Goblins, respectively. I'll admit it wasn't pure legacy, but I believe results are still somewhat valid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Invitational had the top 2 spots taken by Zoo and Goblins, respectively. I'll admit it wasn't pure legacy, but I believe results are still somewhat valid.

Oh, so he did. I misead the finals page and thought RUG was his Legacy deck.

This is why I fucking hate people that insist on these "descriptive" names that always end up describing dozens of decks over dozens of formats. At least Caw-Blade specifies something.

So 14 out of 17. That's worrisome but a bit better, especially since half of those we can drop as as the pre-Mental Misstep meta.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Oh, so he did. I misead the finals page and thought RUG was his Legacy deck.

This is why I fucking hate people that insist on these "descriptive" names that always end up describing dozens of decks over dozens of formats. At least Caw-Blade specifies something.

So 14 out of 17. That's worrisome but a bit better, especially since half of those we can drop as as the pre-Mental Misstep meta.

Also, how many of those 14 were Fish, making action against Brainstorm nonsensical?

[DragoFireheart]

Oh, so he did. I misead the finals page and thought RUG was his Legacy deck.

This is why I fucking hate people that insist on these "descriptive" names that always end up describing dozens of decks over dozens of formats. At least Caw-Blade specifies something.

So 14 out of 17. That's worrisome but a bit better, especially since half of those we can drop as as the pre-Mental Misstep meta.


How many of those 14 blue decks had Brainstorm?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, how many of those 14 were Fish, making action against Brainstorm nonsensical?

This is a silly argument. Fish exists because blue is a very popular color. Take away other blue decks and combo- decks most likely to use Brainstorm- and Fish has very few positive matchups left.


How many of those 14 blue decks had Brainstorm?

11.

The other blue decks were 2 Merfolk, 1 Affinity.

[DragoFireheart]

11.

The other blue decks were 2 Merfolk, 1 Affinity.


Hasn't that be the normal distribution even in the past? 1/2 ro 3/4 blue, the other 1/4 other stuff?

[Gui]

Quoting myself because I'm awesome and this is hilarious:
...

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#23

All that said, I don't think anything should be banned, or that the format sux, I just said I would enjoy if they printed better cards for monocolor strategies, as much as they print things for multicolor like Wild Nacatl or Maelstrom Pulse. Cards that work better if you have basic lands would be nice =)

...



Unfair. How is that quote related to OMGBANBLUE? I was refering to a totally different OMG topic, which is OMG pls print better monocolor-oriented cards instead of amazing multicolor ones, punishing you for playing monocolor twice as much. (Less answers, worse answers)

Here's a sample:
Gui's Chosen :g:
Creature - Beast
During your upkeep, if you control lands other than basic Forests, sacrifice Gui's Chosen.
3/3

Oh wow, I'd love this card xD


Editing for some extra fuel to burn:

I don't really get why WotC believes :g::g: to be an easier/better cost than :g::w: (yes, I'm comparing pridemage vs zealot, but it's just one example of many). :g::g: forces you to be less diverse in colors, making your splash harder/worse, the gg card should actually have a better effect than the gw one. If pridemage and Zealot had the same skills (:1:, sacrifice: naturalize; exalted; 2/2), Pridemage would still be the most played card due to gg cost being worse.

[GGoober]

It's called Power Creep Gui!!

Just as Shivan Dragon is no longer as impressive and Serra Angel is no longer as impressive when compared next to Baneslayer Angel.

And to your point, having colored cost of the same mana symbol e.g. GG/WW/UU is usually 'bad' because in Legacy, most decks are splashing colors. The real drawback in Legacy is limiting yourself to mono-color. I think there are more multicolor decks or decks splashing colors with/without duals than actually the dominance of blue-based decks. My opinion on this whole situation is: you can't really call every deck that plays blue a 'blue-based' deck. It's semantics, but I think blue-based decks are really just limited to Merfolks, Landstill, Countertop, Solidarity, MUC, Dreadstill, spiral Tide in this format. A deck like RUG/Bant/TA aren't really blue-based since their win-conditions and strategies do not involve blue. Blue is simply used to protect/answer/execute their win conditions.

The real deal is Bant/TA/RUG/SFMskull are using blue cards because the blue shell is the best shell to splash for in this format, or in general, in the game of MTG itself. However, it is hard to see Berserk Stompy (no harm intended Gui! :P) or mono colored decks being the most competitive decks. They don't do bad because Burn/MonoU Merfolks/MonoR Goblins all still place well, but for most parts, Legacy is primarily dual/tri colored because there is little reason not to splash colors to gain power level. The nice thing is this is kept in check by Wasteland/Moon/Stifle. Format is pretty awesome, nothing is ever too overpowered and everything is kept in check by something e.g. blue by Merfolks and vial decks.

[Koby]

Because at :1::g::w:, Harmonic Sliver is just better than Qasali Pridemage. And power creep.

Also, Blue-based Infect Stompy isn't bad either. You get counters to protect your 1/1's. (lol?)

[Nonex]

The philosophy behind that is that different colors merged in the same card cover each other's weaknesses, giving a better card a result. For example, white is good at destroying artifacts and enchantments, but it has narrow answers to creatures; black is good at destroying creatures and doesn't totally suck at destroying lands, but it can't deal with artifacts and enchantments. Thus when combined, Vindicate is born.

[GGoober]

Lol ruckus: 1/1's that kill you!!

Yeah, the color blue is a shell that is immensely effective in eternal formats. A good observation is to look at white, which does almost nothing important in Vintage, whereas it plays a key role in Legacy, whether you're playing it for StP/SFM or splashing it for Pridemage etc. A pure mono-U deck with all the best blue card is usually (I say usually because MUC can be immensely good in the right metagame) not going to do as well as Ux decks or Uxy decks or even XYu (splashing blue instead of blue being the main color) for reasons that every color you splash, you gain something that blue cannot achieve. It's this reason you find most decks splashing blue, or white. Because decks without blue are losing out on the blue permission package which is very strong in the format, and blue control decks are sometimes forced to splash red or white for a removal package which is lacking in mono blue (Repeal and Echoing Truth are not too spetacular).

This is why I don't buy the whole "Blue needs a nerf" story. The blue package is argubly the strongest package, but that's the defining aspect of the format, just like Standard is defined by Jace and Caws, Vintage is defined by the color blue, Lotus and maybe 3-5 decks, Legacy is also primarily defined by the fact that blue is the stronger color. However, I think Legacy is evolving much more than what our impressions are imposed on ourselves. We tend to think the format to be just blue blue blue, when we sometimes fail to admire that blue is really kept in check by Merfolks (which so unluckily happens to be in blue) and Vial.dec, which is usually countered by non-blue decks e.g. Gobs/Zoo. My point is, everything is kept in check. Too many blue cards you see is a little 'uneasy', but the upside is: you have a format where the Top 8/16/32 are not revealing an overabundance of the same archetype/decks. This is the crux of it all, and is only proof that the format is balanced.

[Tacosnape]

This thread is the equivalent of a bunch of lesser comic book superheroes sitting around and talking about how overrated Superman is. No, he isn't. If you need someone to come to your rescue, you pick the guy who's immune to bullets, can fly, has x-ray vision, bends steel, etc. You don't call Aquaman.

Blue is amazing. Deal with it.

Furthermore, comparing the structure of Vintage to the structure of Legacy is pointless. Vintage is the way it is because broken cards were printed at a time when nobody involved in Magic had any clue how to balance power levels of cards. Ancestral Recall was part of the same cycle as Healing Salve, for god's sake.

Legacy is the way it is right now because of Mental Misstep. Legacy is the way it is right now because they did what Wizards does every so often: Print a card without thinking clearly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mental Misstep made the format worse. I was so tired of Legacy being a gauntlet of impossible combo decks. I'm glad Dredge is weakened. I'm glad Storm Combo is weakened. I'm glad Belcher and Elf Combo are much more beatable now. I'm glad, for the most part, that you have to have a little bit of playskill to succeed in Legacy right now. I'm glad combat math exists again. I'm glad the format, on the whole, doesn't reward terrible magic players who learn one combo and can get lucky and beat you.

That said, I don't think Mental Misstep really made the format much better, either, because now there's absolutely no reason to not play blue in your deck. Combo is blue, control is blue, aggro is blue, and aggro control is blue. You can get 8+ free counters in your deck by splashing blue now without having to run more than 8 blue cards.

[Tacosnape]

This thread is the equivalent of a bunch of lesser comic book superheroes sitting around and talking about how overrated Superman is. No, he isn't. If you need someone to come to your rescue, you pick the guy who's immune to bullets, can fly, has x-ray vision, bends steel, etc. You don't call Aquaman.

Blue is amazing. Deal with it.

Furthermore, comparing the structure of Vintage to the structure of Legacy is pointless. Vintage is the way it is because broken cards were printed at a time when nobody involved in Magic had any clue how to balance power levels of cards. Ancestral Recall was part of the same cycle as Healing Salve, for god's sake.

Legacy is the way it is right now because of Mental Misstep. Legacy is the way it is right now because they did what Wizards does every so often: Print a card without thinking clearly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mental Misstep made the format worse. I was so tired of Legacy being a gauntlet of impossible combo decks. I'm glad Dredge is weakened. I'm glad Storm Combo is weakened. I'm glad Belcher and Elf Combo are much more beatable now. I'm glad, for the most part, that you have to have a little bit of playskill to succeed in Legacy right now. I'm glad combat math exists again. I'm glad the format, on the whole, doesn't reward terrible magic players who learn one combo and can get lucky and beat you.

That said, I don't think Mental Misstep really made the format much better, either, because now there's absolutely no reason to not play blue in your deck. Combo is blue, control is blue, aggro is blue, and aggro control is blue. You can get 8+ free counters in your deck by splashing blue now without having to run more than 8 blue cards.

[Gui]

It's called Power Creep Gui!!

Just as Shivan Dragon is no longer as impressive and Serra Angel is no longer as impressive when compared next to Baneslayer Angel.
Agreed, they power creep all over, that's a fair point, but doesn't help much when the power creep version is then turned into multicolor as if multicolor (:g::w:) was harder to get then monocolor (:g::g:), when in fact, it isn't.



And to your point, having colored cost of the same mana symbol e.g. GG/WW/UU is usually 'bad' because in Legacy, most decks are splashing colors...
You missed my point - I never said GG/WW/UU were good. I was actually saying cards with this kind of cost should have better/greater effects than the multicolored costs, because they are BAD.


However, it is hard to see Berserk Stompy (no harm intended Gui! :P) or mono colored decks being the most competitive decks
...
Legacy is primarily dual/tri colored because there is little reason not to splash colors to gain power level. The nice thing is this is kept in check by Wasteland/Moon/Stifle. Format is pretty awesome, nothing is ever too overpowered and everything is kept in check by something e.g. blue by Merfolks and vial decks.

Hmpf. Zerk is good, you don't know what you are saying >.<
It beatz blue decks, it has to be good.

On a more serious note, I actually like that the format lets you splash for 3 colors and lets you play solutions against these decks like Wasteland/Moon/B2B. What I was looking for was more incentive to stay monocolor too. You don't need to print solutions from other colors (as for counters in green); Just make something that makes not-splashing somehow attractive (Black got more of these, with :b::b: costing cards)

But this is no big deal either, I like the format the way it is, I would just enjoy some love for monocolored decks, but I figure I'm being unfair at this point, since Elves, Goblins and Merfolks exists... oh, and that red Tribal, "Lightnings".

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hasn't that be the normal distribution even in the past? 1/2 ro 3/4 blue, the other 1/4 other stuff?

In the previous year, 10 out of 16 SCG Open winners had at least some blue; before that, it was 1 out of 5.

In Chronological descending order, GP Columbus 2.0 had 7 out of 8 Blue decks, GP Madrid 5 out of 8, GP Chicago had 4 out of 8. GP Columbus 1.0, where it was actually possible to play Hulk-Flash, still only had 5 players in the top 8 running blue. At GP Lille it was 4 out of 8. At GP Philadelphia, only 3 out of 8 players ran blue.

So short answer, "No."


This thread is the equivalent of a bunch of lesser comic book superheroes sitting around and talking about how overrated Superman is. No, he isn't. If you need someone to come to your rescue, you pick the guy who's immune to bullets, can fly, has x-ray vision, bends steel, etc. You don't call Aquaman.

Blue is amazing. Deal with it.

Furthermore, comparing the structure of Vintage to the structure of Legacy is pointless. Vintage is the way it is because broken cards were printed at a time when nobody involved in Magic had any clue how to balance power levels of cards. Ancestral Recall was part of the same cycle as Healing Salve, for god's sake.

Legacy is the way it is right now because of Mental Misstep. Legacy is the way it is right now because they did what Wizards does every so often: Print a card without thinking clearly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mental Misstep made the format worse. I was so tired of Legacy being a gauntlet of impossible combo decks. I'm glad Dredge is weakened. I'm glad Storm Combo is weakened. I'm glad Belcher and Elf Combo are much more beatable now. I'm glad, for the most part, that you have to have a little bit of playskill to succeed in Legacy right now. I'm glad combat math exists again. I'm glad the format, on the whole, doesn't reward terrible magic players who learn one combo and can get lucky and beat you.

That said, I don't think Mental Misstep really made the format much better, either, because now there's absolutely no reason to not play blue in your deck. Combo is blue, control is blue, aggro is blue, and aggro control is blue. You can get 8+ free counters in your deck by splashing blue now without having to run more than 8 blue cards.

Your point is incoherent, and since Superman is a terrible character who creates a huge plot drag on the universe he's written into, your analogy fails in every way possible.

[Shax]

Before Mental Misstep blue was the best deck. Before Counterbalance blue was the best deck. Before solidarity.. well you get the point.

Mental Misstep just makes blue decks get another free counter, but I think in the long run this free counter will have more of a impact on other non-blue decks since they get to abuse it as well. (Daze is my situational comparison)Daze of course requires Islands and does something completely different for the cost, but Mental Misstep is one of the closest things to it. Mental Misstep makes all decks better since you get four Mental Misstep, and that my friends is the format logic.

Aquaman can swim under the sea, so does that mean he has islandwalk and can stop blue players creatures via Sower of Temptation effect on ala blue?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Before Mental Misstep blue was the best deck. Before Counterbalance blue was the best deck. Before solidarity.. well you get the point.

Mental Misstep just makes blue decks get another free counter, but I think in the long run this free counter will have more of a impact on other non-blue decks since they get to abuse it as well. (Daze is my situational comparison)Daze of course requires Islands and does something completely different for the cost, but Mental Misstep is one of the closest things to it. Mental Misstep makes all decks better since you get four Mental Misstep, and that my friends is the format logic.

Aquaman can swim under the sea, so does that mean he has islandwalk and can stop blue players creatures via Sower of Temptation effect on ala blue?

Before Solidarity and arguably during it Goblins was the best deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Blue hasn't always been the best color, and it certainly hasn't always been this dominant, or even cloe to it. Hell, I just posted some fucking numbers on this, can people stop talking out of ignorance?

To add to the previous list, the blue count in the top 8 of GenCon championships has been

2008: 3/8
2009: 7/8
2010: 5/8

When Worlds had Legacy as a format in 2007, the decks that finished 4-1 or better in that portion were;

34/53 blue.

With most decks running 2.4 colors to start with, 2:1 is a Hell of a different ratio from the 5:1 to 7:1 we're seeing now.

Blue has been helped enormously by a few things in recent years; the printing of Jace and powerful merfolk, as well as more powerful, splashable cards that fit in with many historic blue decks' strategies like Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf, the development of better combo lists and the printing or unbanning of cards that help combo enormously; Ad Nauseum, Emrakul, Hive Mind, Iona, Entomb, Time Spiral, and to some extent, arguably the banning of Survival.

Blue may also be suffering from overhype at the moment; if people keep saying that the only option is to play blue, then a lot of people will do so and numbers will tell regardless of whether Zoo and Goblins are as dead as claimed (a demise the rumors of which may have been greatly exaggerated).

But it is certainly not an inevitability and a natural thing that should just be accepted, even desired, that Legacy be a blue-only format.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Master Shakes article linked here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21160-Examining-Grand-Prix-Providence-(Mostly-Day-2)) has a breakdown of the top 32:

blue 21
non-blue 11

Seems pretty similar to earlier numbers.

[Star|Scream]

In the previous year, 10 out of 16 SCG Open winners had at least some blue; before that, it was 1 out of 5.

In Chronological descending order, GP Columbus 2.0 had 7 out of 8 Blue decks, GP Madrid 5 out of 8, GP Chicago had 4 out of 8. GP Columbus 1.0, where it was actually possible to play Hulk-Flash, still only had 5 players in the top 8 running blue. At GP Lille it was 4 out of 8. At GP Philadelphia, only 3 out of 8 players ran blue.

So short answer, "No."



Your point is incoherent, and since Superman is a terrible character who creates a huge plot drag on the universe he's written into, your analogy fails in every way possible.

I can't believe you're arguing for the banning of Superman!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Banning Superman would actually be eminently reasonable, and the DC restart offers a perfect chance to do that. Failing that, they ought to restore him to his original casting, where his powers were merely being really strong, hard to hit, and being fast/able to jump pretty high.

But that's a derail.

[nayon]

It's not that I hate blue, in fact, blue is one of my favourite colors.

It's that I hate games that can be resumed as "No items, fox only, final destination" and "Akuma is fair, your a n00b for not playing it", and I know that Force of Will breaks the format because I PLAY WITH IT, which is why I can say with first-hand knowledge what's wrong with it, why the decks that play it have so much advantage against all the others, that it fuels combo instead of fighting it, and that due to its existence, the game is much worse and far less fun than what it could be.

So, I hope that FoW gets axed this year thanks to the arrival of Mental Misstep, which fixes a lot of things that are wrong about FoW. If that happened, the people that enjoy blue-centric formats will still be able to play it in Vintage, but the format will be a whole lot better, a whole more fun, and a whole more popular. In fact, it would look like "Overextended" (Mercadian Masques onward) which is right now a more diverse format than this one due to the lack of cards like FOW, Show and Tell and LED.

One of the advantages of bringing back balance among colors, is that blue staples will become far cheaper. Players that love blue will be able to play blue without paying five times more for their cards.

Another advantage is that it will increase variance between games. Game design theory says that variance is what keeps players interested in a game. That principle explains one of the reasons why Vintage isn't played even with proxies or on MWS: most of the decks are a carbon copy of each other, minus a few cards.

Also, because each color is tied to a player psychographic and specific playstyles, a more balanced format would attract more players. Currently, it attracts mostly players of one single psychographic, which is why forums like this one shows the false consensus that the format is perfect as is, and that it shouldn't change. But that's true only for players within that psychographic.

So in sum, I can both enjoy blue and NOT ENJOY the way the format is going. And if I spend time developing nonblue decks is not because I hate blue, but because the more competitive nonblue decks in the format, the better for everyone.

How does FoW break the format? It doesn't win you games, you 2-for-1 yourself, and the deck that won the GP had none, in spite of playing blue.

The fact that combo can play FoW means that it can actually compete with other decks instead of auto-lose. Perhaps you just hate combo?

Mental Misstep is actually a lot more wrong than FoW. It's a 1-for-1, and it does not require you to invest in any other blue cards whatsoever. How is overextended more diverse? Overextended doesn't even exist, so there is no metagame, so anyone can play any terrible deck they want. If people actually played it, the real decks would quickly emerge, and I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less diverse than legacy.

It's not that the colors are unbalanced, it's that the better players play blue, and they win because they are better. Also, expecting to get into legacy without putting in some money is an unreasonable expectation. Every archetype has some cards that are expensive, and it's usually the dual lands.

Actually FoW brings variance to the game. I'm sure no one would enjoy losing to Tendrils decks every single round, which is what would happen if FoW were to be banned.

I am actually not invested in color psychographics or playstyles, I just play decks based on interactions, not colors. My favorite deck is 43lands, which doesn't even really have colors. The color pie is less relevant in eternal formats because WOTC has broken it over and over.

The format isn't going some way. There have been FoW decks all along. But it's good that you're trying to develop nonblue decks. Having more decks is always better, regardless of the color.

[Iare]

How does FoW break the format? It doesn't win you games, you 2-for-1 yourself, and the deck that won the GP had none, in spite of playing blue.

The fact that combo can play FoW means that it can actually compete with other decks instead of auto-lose. Perhaps you just hate combo?

Mental Misstep is actually a lot more wrong than FoW. It's a 1-for-1, and it does not require you to invest in any other blue cards whatsoever. How is overextended more diverse? Overextended doesn't even exist, so there is no metagame, so anyone can play any terrible deck they want. If people actually played it, the real decks would quickly emerge, and I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less diverse than legacy.

It's not that the colors are unbalanced, it's that the better players play blue, and they win because they are better. Also, expecting to get into legacy without putting in some money is an unreasonable expectation. Every archetype has some cards that are expensive, and it's usually the dual lands.

Actually FoW brings variance to the game. I'm sure no one would enjoy losing to Tendrils decks every single round, which is what would happen if FoW were to be banned.

I am actually not invested in color psychographics or playstyles, I just play decks based on interactions, not colors. My favorite deck is 43lands, which doesn't even really have colors. The color pie is less relevant in eternal formats because WOTC has broken it over and over.

The format isn't going some way. There have been FoW decks all along. But it's good that you're trying to develop nonblue decks. Having more decks is always better, regardless of the color.


Lawl, this blue is played by better players is bullshit. These players are better because they PLAY BLUE. Reality is most the blue decks in the format play themselves, fighting blue takes more complex trains of thought. And, I quite enjoy the challenge :P

The pros play blue because they know its the best and they are PRO PLAYERS. They won't settle for playing second best since they have a job to do. You don't mop your floor with a sponge when you own a mop.

Edit: Force of will isn't broken, mental misstep probably is though. Time will tell.

[nayon]

Lawl, this blue is played by better players is bullshit. These players are better because they PLAY BLUE. Reality is most the blue decks in the format play themselves, fighting blue takes more complex trains of thought. And, I quite enjoy the challenge :P

The pros play blue because they know its the best and they are PRO PLAYERS. They won't settle for playing second best since they have a job to do. You don't mop your floor with a sponge when you own a mop.

Edit: Force of will isn't broken, mental misstep probably is though. Time will tell.

I sat next to GerryT at the DC Open. He was playing Elves. Jesse Hatfield played Zoo a few weeks ago. Pros don't always play blue.

[Iare]

I can understand Elves, they are actually a really strong deck in the hands of a competent pilot. Zoo on the other hand really lost its oomph with the printing of Mental Misstep, it just isn't the deck to play anymore. The good news is I think black decks are going to comeback into the metagame in a big way once people realize Phyrexian Obliterator is just insane once it hits the board.

I don't think blue decks by and large are hard to pilot or reward play skill nearly as much as most other decks in the format. Elves takes a hell of a lot to think through, Goblins have all sorts of tricky plays built in, Zoo actually has more decisions to make. Think about it Blue has simple choices to make:

1 Do I want this spell to resolve?
2 Does it cost 1 or 2
3 Do I have an island in play
4 Do I have a blue card in hand

Yeah, to say blue is complicated is a complete and total farce. One of the main reasons I don't like playing blue is the deck ends up the same and piloting itself, there really isn't that much fun to be had. Oh and the lazy deck construction it leads to:

4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Spellsnare/Pierce <-- Finally have to turn my brain on and we are almost halfway done!

If I am not splashing more than one color for my win condition the deck further builds itself:
4x Stifle
4x Wasteland

Throw your lands and win conditions in and give it a name that isn't Really just a blue deck.

[Piceli89]

Yeah, to say blue is complicated is a complete and total farce. One of the main reasons I don't like playing blue is the deck ends up the same and piloting itself, there really isn't that much fun to be had. Oh and the lazy deck construction it leads to:

4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Spellsnare/Pierce <-- Finally have to turn my brain on and we are almost halfway done!

If I am not splashing more than one color for my win condition the deck further builds itself:
4x Stifle
4x Wasteland


So, we are playing in a metagame infested by Tempo decks. Oh no wait, Stifle+Wasteland is playable only if "I am splashing more than one color". Monoblue Canadian Threshold, Monoblue Dark Threshold, Monoblue Team America.

[nayon]

I don't think blue decks by and large are hard to pilot or reward play skill nearly as much as most other decks in the format. Elves takes a hell of a lot to think through, Goblins have all sorts of tricky plays built in, Zoo actually has more decisions to make. Think about it Blue has simple choices to make:

1 Do I want this spell to resolve?
2 Does it cost 1 or 2
3 Do I have an island in play
4 Do I have a blue card in hand

Yeah, to say blue is complicated is a complete and total farce. One of the main reasons I don't like playing blue is the deck ends up the same and piloting itself, there really isn't that much fun to be had.

Have you actually ever played blue? If so, have you ever been good at it? The answer to one of these questions has to be no.

Ad hominem = no-no (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174026&viewfull=1#post174027). Verbal warning for flame-baiting. - Bardo

[FieryBalrog]

It's not that the colors are unbalanced, it's that the better players play blue, and they win because they are better.

In this thread people convince themselves they are big boys because they play with certain cards. lol

CmON guyz!!! its not that the {Soviet tank rush|Orc Bloodlust|4Warpgate|ETC.} is overpowered, all the best players just love how aesthetically pleasing it is.

[nayon]

Have you actually ever played blue? If so, have you ever been good at it? The answer to one of these questions has to be no.

Ad hominem = no-no (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174026&viewfull=1#post174027). Verbal warning for flame-baiting. - Bardo

I was trying to say it's not that simple to play control. Yes, you can autopilot with it, but if you want to be successful, you have to learn how to get out of difficult scenarios, which requires restraint and good usage of resources.

Then just say that and don't antagonize others in this thread.

The same goes for everyone else doing the same. - Bardo

[Iare]

I was trying to say it's not that simple to play control. Yes, you can autopilot with it, but if you want to be successful, you have to learn how to get out of difficult scenarios, which requires restraint and good usage of resources.

Or cast a Natural Order and win :P

Yes, I have in fact played blue. Only on MWS since I haven't exactly collected all the blue staples or the blue lands. I have duels in black, red, green and white but none that tap for U nor do I care to buy them since I don't really like playing the color. I find it good to know my enemy and how he is thinking and the best way to acomplish this is to play his deck awhile. Post MM blue decks don't lend themselves to getting into bad situations often and they really don't have any truely tricky thought filled plays to get out of them. Brainstorm and hope to find their answer isn't tricky. (This applies more to blue aggro control not so much landstill). Landstill is tricky cause you gotta try not to fall asleep while you play it ;D

And, to respond to above I said if I am NOT splashing two colors then Stifle + waste is an auto include or I am doing it wrong.

[joemauer]

And, to respond to above I said if I am NOT splashing two colors then Stifle + waste is an auto include or I am doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong. Merfolk nor U/w landstill nor monoblue control use the wasteland+stifle combo. Hive mind is a blue deck too right? Should it have the wasteland+stifle combo?

[Parax]

i do think blue pilots have to study the field more than anyone else. Its knowing what and when to counter something that matters. You might not always counter something on turn 4 but you might want to counter it earlier if you have the chance.

[Iare]

i do think blue pilots have to study the field more than anyone else. Its knowing what and when to counter something that matters. You might not always counter something on turn 4 but you might want to counter it earlier if you have the chance.

Honestly, discard is much more unforgiving and therefor thought provoking than counterspells. Cabal therapy is probably the most rewarding card ever to those who mastered the response to "Name a card".

[Lord_Cyrus]

Also Lord Cyrus called Speed Zoo beating blue and we have it in SCG Indianapolis with Zoo/Gobs coming 1st/2nd in a field of blue.

My conlusion for this thread:

OMG can we just ban blue already so we won't have these posts/threads popping up at the end of every Legacy event?

Nice to know I was right. ;) Seriously guys, if you despise blue, play Speed Zoo. You run the risk of getting blown out by random combo, but so do most non-blue decks. The upshot is the savage beating you can put on guys who like to tap islands. Don't forget your Price of Progress and Ancient Grudge out of the SB!!

[Offler]

Iare:
However majority of people dont think of adding card like Cabal terapy because they dont know how to use it effectively. On the other hand, brainstorm is much more straightforward card.

There still were obvious and less obvious usages of any card ever printed. Brainstorm can use anyone in almost any kind of deck. But you have to learn how and when to use Cabal Therapy.

Thats also why are people still whinning about FOW. I dont play it and I am still happy without it :)

How not to play cabal therapy:
Turn 1. Player guesses a card, i reveal hand nothing to discard however.
Turn 3. Player sacrifices a creature for flashback and guesees again. apparently he missed again. He did not manage to remember from the first time...

How to play cabal theraphy:
Oponnent waits until I have to reveal a card from hand due some tutoring, and discards exact card he needed to.
Oponnent sacrifies card with Grave ability (wonder, Protean Hulk and so on) which can cause to start infinte combo, and he discard the second card he wanted me to.

From my own experience people will play brainstorm because it does not need to learn how to use it effectively, but people wont play Long-term plans because it requires Senseis Top in play, but for my own surprise they will play Counterbalance, even when its certain it needs Senseis top either.

[Gui]

Guessing a card with therapy is fine if you guesses a card based on opponent opening, and based on card that would lead you to a game loss. Dredge does that all the time, naming gravehate and such.

[nayon]

Iare:
However majority of people dont think of adding card like Cabal terapy because they dont know how to use it effectively. On the other hand, brainstorm is much more straightforward card.

There still were obvious and less obvious usages of any card ever printed. Brainstorm can use anyone in almost any kind of deck. But you have to learn how and when to use Cabal Therapy.

Thats also why are people still whinning about FOW. I dont play it and I am still happy without it :)

How not to play cabal therapy:
Turn 1. Player guesses a card, i reveal hand nothing to discard however.
Turn 3. Player sacrifices a creature for flashback and guesees again. apparently he missed again. He did not manage to remember from the first time...

How to play cabal theraphy:
Oponnent waits until I have to reveal a card from hand due some tutoring, and discards exact card he needed to.
Oponnent sacrifies card with Grave ability (wonder, Protean Hulk and so on) which can cause to start infinte combo, and he discard the second card he wanted me to.

From my own experience people will play brainstorm because it does not need to learn how to use it effectively, but people wont play Long-term plans because it requires Senseis Top in play, but for my own surprise they will play Counterbalance, even when its certain it needs Senseis top either.

Actually using brainstorm effectively is not that easy. To give you some idea: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/19780.html

As for cabal therapy, I think the best way to "guess" is to name a card that you think your opponent might have that could disturb your plan. Not every deck reveals a card from a tutor.

[Cire]

Iare:
However majority of people dont think of adding card like Cabal terapy because they dont know how to use it effectively. On the other hand, brainstorm is much more straightforward card.

There still were obvious and less obvious usages of any card ever printed. Brainstorm can use anyone in almost any kind of deck. But you have to learn how and when to use Cabal Therapy.

Thats also why are people still whinning about FOW. I dont play it and I am still happy without it :)

How not to play cabal therapy:
Turn 1. Player guesses a card, i reveal hand nothing to discard however.
Turn 3. Player sacrifices a creature for flashback and guesees again. apparently he missed again. He did not manage to remember from the first time...

How to play cabal theraphy:
Oponnent waits until I have to reveal a card from hand due some tutoring, and discards exact card he needed to.
Oponnent sacrifies card with Grave ability (wonder, Protean Hulk and so on) which can cause to start infinte combo, and he discard the second card he wanted me to.

From my own experience people will play brainstorm because it does not need to learn how to use it effectively, but people wont play Long-term plans because it requires Senseis Top in play, but for my own surprise they will play Counterbalance, even when its certain it needs Senseis top either.

Actually I'm sure it exists, but I would love to see an article on the exact uses of therapy.

[Offler]

Its easy to use Brainstorm on first turn (obviously most valued effect), also as reaction on some spell while response is hidden somewhere on top of your library, or else you can hide there cards in response to disrupt. I personally prefer to play Brainstorm at the end of oponnents turn. At least from my point of view as I still play mostly blue its good to know how to set up my hand before the game proceeds.

But its somehow funny to see a guy who plays therapy, guesses for first time (ok, lets say no one revelaed the hand or single card), but on second time he dont remember name of any single card. thats something i like on magic.