CaNG IV?

[Jak]

It has been a while since the last one, and I mean a while (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8013-CaNG-III-%28Rules-and-Information%29&highlight=CaNG).

I'm sure everyone is for it, except obviously the administrators. This is perfectly understandable because it takes a shit ton of time and energy to setup and run. However, CaNG is such an awesome and innovative thing that it needs to keep happening, and IMO, now is a better time than any.

-It is the start of Summer
-GP just ended
-It's been over 3 fucking years

A CaNG'D hasn't been done since Legacy became the bees knees and I want to see how popular this contest can be. The more popular, the more new and fresh ideas being posted.

How about it?

[dahcmai]

I might could be convinced to donate a little to this. I liked the last ones though I missed the entry dates for my own decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean there isn't really a problem in Legacy with lack of archetypes at the moment, so I don't see the point. I mean really, one of the DTBs amounts to, "Some kind of deck running Green/White and creatures," and that's considered like an actual thread.

[Jak]

I mean there isn't really a problem in Legacy with lack of archetypes at the moment, so I don't see the point. I mean really, one of the DTBs amounts to, "Some kind of deck running Green/White and creatures," and that's considered like an actual thread.

It's a fun contest that can generate ideas and can promote the site as well. The contest was never meant to diversify Legacy or create a new DTB, but every time the contest was held, some new, interesting ideas/decks came from it.

[Amon Amarth]

I mean there isn't really a problem in Legacy with lack of archetypes at the moment, so I don't see the point. I mean really, one of the DTBs amounts to, "Some kind of deck running Green/White and creatures," and that's considered like an actual thread.

To be fair there is a ton of customization that you can do with G/W.dec but I see your point. It would give unmotivated people like myself a reason to post one of the more promising decks I've been kicking around.

[Koby]

I mean there isn't really a problem in Legacy with lack of archetypes at the moment, so I don't see the point. I mean really, one of the DTBs amounts to, "Some kind of deck running Green/White and creatures," and that's considered like an actual thread.

It would give you the opportunity to actually make Army of Ancients into a real tuned, tier 2 deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well that's not a new deck though.

[menace13]

Well that's not a new deck though.
Are there ever any in 50 decks. format?
Disclaimer; Okay, maybe 20 now with MM in format.

[Infinitium]

Sure. Sounds delightful.

[(nameless one)]

Well that's not a new deck though.

This, I am pretty sure back in 2006, IBA used to call the deck Darwin's Revenge. I know because it was my first type1.5 legal/viable deck.

Back to CaNG, I am definitely down with this. I think I have this build thats been itching to be optimized (and no, its not rebels)

[troopatroop]

So, does it have to be a "new deck" or one that's just unplayed/unheard of? What if you've been working on something for the past few months, does that count as new? Someone needs to make these decisions, but I'm down I guess. Moss Naught won the last one?

[Jak]

So, does it have to be a "new deck" or one that's just unplayed/unheard of? What if you've been working on something for the past few months, does that count as new? Someone needs to make these decisions, but I'm down I guess. Moss Naught won the last one?

From the CaNG III Rules and Information thread.

Rules
Some of these rules may seem slightly subjective, but we’ll do our best to be as objective as possible.

Submitting an Entry:
1. Start a new thread in this forum for your deck.
2. Include a description of general strategies, card analysis, and testing results (see #3 in Acceptable Entries).
3. Contestants may only have ONE entry. If you post a second entry, I will delete it; so please choose your entry carefully.
4. Follow all the normal rules of the board.

Acceptable Entries:
1. The deck’s concept must be generally new and original. Something like Food Chain/Evoke would be considered a fine entry, but a deck like U/r Trix would not be accepted. Previous winners included a preliminary build of Rifter, which was acknowledged as one of Legacy’s strongest control decks for awhile, and Ninja Survival, a Survival-variant with a rather unique spin.

2. Revisions of existing archetypes will be accepted if they contain a significant change. Removing four lands from Zilla Stompy (R/g mid-range) and replacing them with four Lotus Petals would not be considered a significant change. Building a typical Fish deck with the addition of Tombstalker doesn't seem particularly original. However, merging Dragon Stompy with Angel Stax for an R/w Stax variant that could win on turn two could be considered a significant revision. If you decide to complete a major revision, then be sure to explain how your change strengthens the original. After all, why would we want to change a deck to be weaker?

3. TEST IT! We want actual results – not theories and “probably-s!” You must have some results against Goblins with a splash, U/G/x Thresh with CounterTop, and a Landstill variant since those three decks are generally the best-performing decks for the time being. You should also test against at least one accepted combo deck; Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, IggyPop, or TES, your pick, as long as you're not monkeying with MU percetages. Lastly, test against at least two other decks in the Legacy Decks to Beat forum or the Established Decks forum. See #6 of this section.

So for those of you who like lists, test against:

Goblins
U/G/x CounterTop Thresh
Landstill (3 or 4 color)
A Combo Deck (Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, IggyPop, or TES)
Two (2) other decks from the Decks to Beat Forum or the Established Decks Forum

4. Include and explain weaknesses that are inherent to your deck.

5. The deck may not have an existing thread that has started before December 1st, 2007. We made a few exceptions last contest based on certain circumstances. If you have questions. PM me.

6. The deck must be viable! It must be able to have a reasonable chance against other well known and competitive decks in this format. See #3 above.

7. Make your opening post look GOOD! It is a fact that well written, good looking opening posts get more attention and are taken more seriously than sloppy, poorly written posts.

Minor Rules and Notices
1. Don’t steal anyone else’s deck. I don’t expect to see anybody but Cavius posting a list for Nourishing Lich.
2. At the end of the contest, this forum will be deleted and all entries will be moved to the appropriate forum.
3. Here is a link explaining the rules for the latest release, Morningtide. In short, Morningtide will be legal - just make sure that the cards you are using are correctly spoiled.

Decks will be judged on the following qualities:

(Unfortunately some of this criteria is inherently subjective. No particular quality is more important than another. To illustrate, previous winners included Fakespam’s R/w Rifter build which was quite competitive and Spatula’s Ninja Survival deck that was rather unique.)

1. Originality. How new and original is the deck concept? How interesting is the deck or concept? It will be tough to score high in this category if you are revising a deck – unless your revisions are drastic.
2. Viability. How fast is the deck? What is its fundamental turn? Can the deck be considered competitive? How are its match-ups against the major archetypes? What card or deck makes it scoop?

[bakofried]

I've got something kicking around. It ends games at >5 life, and it's really slow, but you gotta start somewhere.

[Wizened Cenn]

I would love to be a part of this.
I feel obligated (though it may be obvious to most people) to point out that playing random people on MWS does not constitute as "testing". If your deck doesn't win 80+% against the MWS field it is probably pretty terrible. Every so often you can find a competent opponent, but it happens about as often as you find yourself in the top 8 with Nourishing Lich.

[kicks_422]

Maybe give out consolation prizes as well? Aside from the winner, best budget deck (e.g. <$100-200ish), best deck name, e.g. Just for fun.

[Beatusnox]

I'd Participate in this as well. Matter of fact you have me brewing right now out of boredom.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Maybe give out consolation prizes as well? Aside from the winner, best budget deck (e.g. <$100-200ish), best deck name, e.g. Just for fun.

I doubt there is a legit deck under $200 that has a chance of winning anything that hasn't been tried at this point.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I doubt there is a legit deck under $200 that has a chance of winning anything that hasn't been tried at this point.

Challenge accepted.

eta:

A $4-500 budget limit would actually make this contest interesting and useful.

[Beatusnox]

I doubt there is a legit deck under $200 that has a chance of winning anything that hasn't been tried at this point.


What do you mean by 'chance of winning anything'? because if you mean finishing in the money of a Tournament, Challenge is accepted.

[kiblast]

Challenge accepted.

Under 200$ is really, really hard, considering that with Bridge jumping at 10$, even Dredge substantially might be above this mark.

There is always Bird Stompy though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nah, it's easy.

I'm going to cheat and assume you already own Plains;


Life On A Chain, v 1.0

20 Plains
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin

4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ranger of Eos

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Well of Lost Dreams

[Beatusnox]

Nah, it's easy.

I'm going to cheat and assume you already own Plains;

20 Plains
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin

4 Serra Ascendant
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ranger of Eos

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Proclamation of Rebirth
4 Well of Lost Dreams

Already exists under Established, by the Name of Ascension. Your list is eerily similar to the one I was advocating a while back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

wtf

Also why do none of those lists run Well of Lost Dreams, are they morally opposed to drawing cards or what.

[Beatusnox]

wtf

Also why do none of those lists run Well of Lost Dreams, are they morally opposed to drawing cards or what.

Much of the life gain can be so high that that you cannot afford to pay X. It is better to run something like Oblivion ring IMO for just in case removal, and to prevent totally folding to Chalice Decks.

[evanmartyr]

Much of the life gain can be so high that that you cannot afford to pay X. It is better to run something like Oblivion ring IMO for just in case removal, and to prevent totally folding to Chalice Decks.

Well, Well of Lost Dreams says less than or equal to the amount of life you gained, but whatever.

Yay for CaNGD!

[Beatusnox]

Well, Well of Lost Dreams says less than or equal to the amount of life you gained, but whatever.

Yay for CaNGD!

Missed the less than, sorry on hour 26 of no sleep(for some reason I just cant sleep), so I missed it, but still, Maybe it is just too cute? or Win More? Just seem like it is not needed.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Much of the life gain can be so high that that you cannot afford to pay X. It is better to run something like Oblivion ring IMO for just in case removal, and to prevent totally folding to Chalice Decks.

I hate when I could draw twelve cards but can only afford to draw five, I guess? That seems terrible. It's not "win more" to suddenly draw five cards in what had been a tight game, it's "win lock."

Also I'm pretty sure my list plays around Chalice pretty well, it has equipment + bigger guys + ways to reanimate the countered 1 cc dorks.

[Beatusnox]

I hate when I could draw twelve cards but can only afford to draw five, I guess? That seems terrible. It's not "win more" to suddenly draw five cards in what had been a tight game, it's "win lock."

Also I'm pretty sure my list plays around Chalice pretty well, it has equipment + bigger guys + ways to reanimate the countered 1 cc dorks.

I could also be that by the time you drop the well you should be beating with a 6/6 Flyer already? Just seems like at that point, by turn 2, you should have the 6/6, by turn 3 you have hit for 6. It comes out turn 4 your tapped out so you cant use it. Swing for 6 more, put them to 8. Turn 5, assuming you play nothing, swing for 6 more, put them at two, you could at that point draw 5 cards? Seems kind of asinine to me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I could also be that by the time you drop the well you should be beating with a 6/6 Flyer already? Just seems like at that point, by turn 2, you should have the 6/6, by turn 3 you have hit for 6. It comes out turn 4 your tapped out so you cant use it. Swing for 6 more, put them to 8. Turn 5, assuming you play nothing, swing for 6 more, put them at two, you could at that point draw 5 cards? Seems kind of asinine to me.

Alternately, they could be playing cards of their own and a fresh grip of cards could be exactly what you need to push you through the attrition war.

Also what you describe seems like an ideal and unlikely scenario. You're not usually going to have Ascendant active on turn 3, for their interference as much as anything else.

Assuming the best case scenario is not how to build a good deck.

[Beatusnox]

Alternately, they could be playing cards of their own and a fresh grip of cards could be exactly what you need to push you through the attrition war.

Also what you describe seems like an ideal and unlikely scenario. You're not usually going to have Ascendant active on turn 3, for their interference as much as anything else.

Assuming the best case scenario is not how to build a good deck.

In my testing, which was fairly extensive, I had an active ascendant turn 3 around 50% of the time.


Honestly though, I can see wellspring being useful. It is a card I had forgotten about it, I will test it in my list and see how it goes, I'm willing to adapt if I find it useful.

I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion on the Ascension thread, Don't want to clutter this thread up too much more.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So yeah as I said, been done. Under $200 is a huge constraint, I doubt you will find anything useful that has not been tried. Under 200 rules out Force, Goyf, Jace, and pretty much everything but monocolor and it's all been done before.

I'm just gonna be blunt here. Fuck a budget contest. It's hard enough to make a new Legacy deck without trying to stay under an arbitrary amount of money. Might as well just go innovate Modern at that point. There's plenty of Legacy stuff that hasn't been tried in a while and is worth revisiting with several blocks worth of new cards, but I think a lot of that stuff involves obscure old cards that are in the +$20 range

[evanmartyr]

If someone can come up with a half-decent snow-centric deck, they'll win a big sloppy kiss from me.

I'm not sure if the *whole* contest should be budget, but I'm all for a budget category. Well put-together budget primers (see 4eak's lists) are great starter points for new players (or people like me, on a very strict budget), especially if you detail how they can improve the deck with more cash, or more time.

@kiblast: FUUUUU! Stay away from my awesome bird stompy ideas!

[kiblast]

@kiblast: FUUUUU! Stay away from my awesome bird stompy ideas!

Man, I used to mess with Soulcatcher and Battle Screech ages ago... ;)

[4eak]

Just gauging interest:

We'd need Judges and Prizes. Any willing volunteers for either and/or both? Note that judges wouldn't be allowed to submit entries (conflict of interest). Without judges, this thing won't get rolling.


peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'll judge as it shall save me the time/energy of having to playtest a new deck.

[Beatusnox]

I dont have much I can offer for prizes. I have mostly Bulk Rares left as of now

I do have

1x Bloodghast
1x Buy a box Sheoldred
1x Textless Bituminous blast
1x Textless Doom Blade
2x Krosan Grip
1x Dragoncon Promo Nalathni Dragon
1x Foil Textless Day of Judgement
1x Japanese Genesis Wave

Random Japanese rares from besieged.

Full art Lands from Zendikar.


Maybe more, But that is what I am willing to put up as prizes atm.

[Koby]

I volunteer to judge for the Southern California, or California region; whichever is more appropriate. I can also offer a MPR Promo Psychatog for the prizes, sealed in its pristine glory.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I can pitch in either a Manabond or a Portal 1 Armageddon, as well as a few other small things.

[Beatusnox]

Also, for Rules.

Decks that MUST be tested against?

I would think:
Painter Stone
Zoo
Merfolk
Hivemind
Team America
G/w
Something Chalice based.
And a turn 1-2 Combo deck(Belcher, Ant, TeS, SI).

Does this seem reasonable?

[(nameless one)]

I volunteer to judge as well, representing both Canada and the 'budget aspect'.

And as for testing, what about using the 'decks to beat'?

[evanmartyr]

I could probably throw in a couple cool cards for prizes. I've got a foil Tinker bopping around that I never use, and some interesting old stuff/promos/etc.

[Beatusnox]

I volunteer to judge as well, representing both Canada and the 'budget aspect'.

And as for testing, what about using the 'decks to beat'?

that is where most of that list comes from, I also added Hive Mind as it has had a few recent showings in the top 8, as well as a Fast combo deck, because they do exist in the format.

The Chalice deck is the one thing on that List I put there only on my own accord. I feel that if a deck folds over to anything Chalice based, it should have to have some way to fight Chalice. Just saying 'well who plays that' is a good way for a potential good deck to fall apart.

[AlexAI]

What would this be played on? MWS? Cockatrice? Wouldn't mind helping test with others if not enter myself.

[Koby]

What would this be played on? MWS? Cockatrice? Wouldn't mind helping test with others if not enter myself.

Any testing will suffice, as long as it's thorough and methodical. The entries should be thoroughly tested with a write up, pretty much similar to how a model Established Deck would look.


For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

[Beatusnox]

we have people volunteering to judge, people offering cards for prizes, now here is the kicker. Who out there in source land is willing to pilot a 'top' deck and set up a gauntlet type testing system.

[AlexAI]

@rukcus: I got that, I was just wondering more on if we would use Cockatrice or MWS for contest and/or playtesting.

@Beatusnox: I can contribute to the Zoo/Affinity testing as I play both decks live. I can probably play other decks as well as long as people don't mind me screwing up once in a while.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The only decks I think you absolutely have to test against are Merfolk and Zoo. Other decks I would value testing against are Landstill (Deedstill or U/W), Junk, Bant, RUG, Team America, Goblins, Elves, Ichorid, Affinity, ANT/TES, SnT-HiveMind, and maybe Team Italia and Batterstill. As long as the deck's tested against at least six of those representing different archetypes and liabilities, I think it's enough to be getting on with.

Some free advice:

Most of the wedges are already decks or trying to be; Anything with green already is, except Jund for some reason, as well as Team Italia. But don't just throw together a blue/white/black, blue/red/black, blue/red/white deck that runs all of the cards everyone already expects you to run in those colors and call it a new deck. Bust out some hidden synergies and forgotten cards. There's plenty of great cards that don't see adequate play in this format, if I see someone trot out Standard Darkblade + Force/StP/Confidants and call it a new deck I swear I will choke a bitch through the internet.

[troopatroop]

The only decks I think you absolutely have to test against are Merfolk and Zoo. Other decks I would value testing against are Landstill (Deedstill or U/W), Junk, Bant, RUG, Team America, Goblins, Elves, Ichorid, Affinity, ANT/TES, SnT-HiveMind, and maybe Team Italia and Batterstill. As long as the deck's tested against at least six of those representing different archetypes and liabilities, I think it's enough to be getting on with.

I agree. Merfolk and Zoo should be required, and some number of those other decks.



Some free advice:

Most of the wedges are already decks or trying to be; Anything with green already is.

I disagree. My deck plays green, and it's pretty different from any established Legacy decks.

This is where I take issue. This is about building a new Legacy deck that's also good, so it's gonna need to play with at least some established good cards. You're not gonna beat Landstill or Zoo without good cards, and there should be some understanding given towards decks that use tier 1 spells in a new way.

And your point about Caw-Blade being disqualified is dicey. It's not really a Legacy deck yet, right? Granted, it's far from original.

[kiblast]

And your point about Caw-Blade being disqualified is dicey. It's not really a Legacy deck yet, right? Granted, it's far from original.

I disagree. It's a legacy deck and has got some top8s or top16 in fairly big/large tournaments.
Yeah, it's not Zoo, but it's not a new deck anymore. Unless you splash with some unusual colours (like Red) and you play unconventional cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I disagree. My deck plays green, and it's pretty different from any established Legacy decks.

This is where I take issue. This is about building a new Legacy deck that's also good, so it's gonna need to play with at least some established good cards. You're not gonna beat Landstill or Zoo without good cards, and there should be some understanding given towards decks that use tier 1 spells in a new way.

And your point about Caw-Blade being disqualified is dicey. It's not really a Legacy deck yet, right? Granted, it's far from original.

I was talking about the wedges, i.e., three color combinations.

Specifically, I was saying, don't just pick three colors that aren't currently played a lot together and throw in the most popular cards from those colors and call it a deck. I don't want, for example, to see a list that's something like;

Team Sealand:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
22 Land

Like, that's not an actual deck, that's just the most played cards of those colors rammed together without a clear idea of what's going on. It's capable of winning some games, but it's not tuned and literally zero thought went into it. Having a deck that has most of the same cards is fine, but there ought to be some unorthodox choices that will find synergy with the core cards.

[Jak]

Another good idea is to search the forums for "CaNG" and it will probably come up with handfuls of threads from the contest (past winners, finalists, etc). There you can see how different those decks and somewhat innovative they were. It usually helps if you know a bit about past metagames and decks, but it can help inspire as well.

[Beatusnox]

I am looking for people to test against. Have an incarnation of the deck I want to develop built.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So is this going down or what?

[Beatusnox]

I have been actively testing, I just need more people to say they will join or the forum to be turned on.

I think we need more of an official Post on this right now, so that more people will actually post. Right now it is just a regular member's thread about restarting it, not an official thread from the forum about getting it going.

[Jak]

I have been actively testing, I just need more people to say they will join or the forum to be turned on.

I think we need more of an official Post on this right now, so that more people will actually post. Right now it is just a regular member's thread about restarting it, not an official thread from the forum about getting it going.

The only way for it to happen/run smoothly is with the mods and admins running it, so it will really only happen then. People will join then. This thread is just to show that people are interested and to push the mods/admins into setting it up. Like you said, this isn't official at all.

C'mon admins and mods!

[kiblast]

Somebody will break Artificer's Intuition in this CaNG. I feel this.

[Finn]

The judges have to actually test this time. One if the previous ones I entered Merfolk. Merfolk! And it did not even make it as a finalist. You have to question what the hell the criteria actually were, how effective the judges were, and how valuable the contest was at identifying actual good decks when that happens.

[Di]

The judges have to actually test this time. One if the previous ones I entered Merfolk. Merfolk! And it did not even make it as a finalist. You have to question what the hell the criteria actually were, how effective the judges were, and how valuable the contest was at identifying actual good decks when that happens.

As someone who judged for all of them, I can assure you that most judges (can't speak for everyone) put in a lot of work with testing and playing this out completely. It's quite a pain in the ass really.

Also, give us a break on Merfolk. The deck was terrible before Cursecatcher was printed, which was a whopping six months after CaNG III began. Even those original builds didn't even have Mutavault in them. The deck's a lot better now, but let's not kid ourselves here, it was nothing more than a crappy random tribal deck.

Also, not that this is an "official" statement or anything, but odds are there will not be a CaNG IV any time soon. Not saying it won't ever happen, but don't expect it in the near future.

[(nameless one)]

The judges have to actually test this time. One if the previous ones I entered Merfolk. Merfolk! And it did not even make it as a finalist. You have to question what the hell the criteria actually were, how effective the judges were, and how valuable the contest was at identifying actual good decks when that happens.

I think the Source as a whole has a tendency on shutting down 'new' decks. This was also evident with Vengevine Survival. I remember before GP Columbus, it was regarded as too janky.

[android]

I challenge someone to make a winning deck with one of these cards as it's centerpiece;

Victimize
Thought Lash
Hunting Grounds

Victimize should be able to win outright the turn it's cast. Thought Lash could technically tutor up any number of cards in your deck the turn it was cast thus winning and Hunting Grounds is free fatties.

[Finn]

Di, clearly that attitude prevailed at the time because "It probably sucks and I don't have the time to find out for sure," was as close as it got. The testing needs to be objective, structured, and relayed to the designer in the thread. And the judges need to give real feedback to EVERY contestant. These things should be obvious, and have never been done.

At any rate, it is definitely time consuming to test, as we all know. It is asking a lot of people to do it. And few people actually have the skills to do it right. As the site gets bigger the work does too with more decks being entered.

[Jak]

I think the Source as a whole has a tendency on shutting down 'new' decks. This was also evident with Vengevine Survival. I remember before GP Columbus, it was regarded as too janky.

Yeah dude, they totally shut down new decks in a contest for building new decks...

People, not just the Source, will always be skeptical and go with their preconceived notions. It's how the world works.

Edit- Also, Finn, really? Stop complaining because Merfolk wasn't good back then. It had just gotten the tools to be decent and didn't get really good until a good one drop was printed (Cursecatcher) and more lords. If you would have won, I would have taken credit anyway :tongue:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6799-Winter-Folk&highlight=

[MULocke]

I'd be interested in this and have a few ideas, I just don't have the time to put in serious testing right now. If anyone wants to work with me (or jsut wants to bounce around ideas), I'm in.

[Whippoorwill]

I challenge someone to make a winning deck with one of these cards as it's centerpiece;

Victimize
Thought Lash
Hunting Grounds

Victimize should be able to win outright the turn it's cast. Thought Lash could technically tutor up any number of cards in your deck the turn it was cast thus winning and Hunting Grounds is free fatties.

I've wanted to use Thought Lash as a Donate target, but I don't think that idea is viable anymore with Pridemage in the format.

The problem with Hunting Ground is that there are better ways to do the same (SnT, NO, even Hypergenesis). Maybe it could work in a Bant Control deck with Loam and Forbid to help with Threshold.

[android]

I was thinking more along the lines of Thoughtlash + Future Sight for the auto tutor for anything left in your deck.