[M12 Cards]

[Cire]

Sorry didn't see a thread for m12 yet... so


Hunter's Insight 2G
Instant
Choose target creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player or planeswalker this turn, draw that many cards.

Great new draw engine for green based decks? Hit with a Goyf .... then draw 4? Hell, you can splash green for this if your deck runs a decent amount of creature with power over 3. For example you can run this in Mono Green Stompy, equip a beater with a sword, deal DMG, then draw a five something cards...

----------

Also

Gideon's Avenger 1WW
Creature - Human Soldier
Whenever a Creature an Opponent controls becomes tapped, put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon's Avenger.

It can get really big really fast... lets say vs zoo by the time you untap withhim out it should be at least a 4/4 or something unless they play around it, and in that case you're not being attacked

Stonehorn Dignitary 3W
Creature - Rhino Soldier
When Stonehorn Dignitary enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next combat phase.
1/4

Some kind of lock with astral slide or something?

*Reassembling Skeleton 1B
Creature - Skeleton
1B: Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
1/1

Another potential combo with sac effects? Contamination?

Goblin Arsonist R
Creature - Goblin Shaman
When Goblin Arsonist is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may have it deal 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1

A lame version of Goblin Fanatic...still seems more useful that fanatic under the new rules though. This can 2 for 1 at least

----------
For EDH

Swiftfoot Boots 2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has hexproof and haste.
1 Equip

it's basically lightning greeves, just slightly worse

[DrJones]

I think Wild Mongrel just made a new best friend.

[Sims]

For EDH

Swiftfoot Boots 2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has hexproof and haste.
1 Equip

it's basically lightning greeves, just slightly worse

I will pay 1 for an equip to give my generals and utility dorks Trollshroud instead of Shroud any day fo the week. I'll go on a limb and bank that card becomes an EDH staple.

[Koby]

I think that even in Standard, the equipment will see a moderate amount of play. Haste and Shroud are not to be underestimated in a format filled with removal.

I'm actually excited about Chandra's Phoenix, so that I can finally play a red planeswalker again. (and still suck vs control)

[Rizso]

The boots is really nice with Kemba :D

[Clark Kant]

*Reassembling Skeleton 1B
Creature - Skeleton
1B: Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
1/1

Another potential combo with sac effects? Contamination?



Awesome find...

4 Contamination
4 Nether Spirit
4 Bitterblossom
4 Reassembling Skeleton

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Pox

4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

We got ourselves a deck. :)

The deck could play even more Pox cards. Cut Cabal Therapy and Inquisiton of Kozilek and put in Ensnaring Bridge and Smallpox.

The deck could alternatively cut Pox and Dark Ritual and instead play Abyssal Persecutor, Dark Confidant and Go for the Throat.

[Koby]

Awesome find...

4 Contamination
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Bitterblossom
4 Reassembling Skeleton

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

We got ourselves a deck. :)

Bloodghast too, synergy with Therapy as well.

[DrJones]

Reassembling Skeleton is from M11

[Jander78]

Reassembling Skeleton came out in M11. Hunter's Insight seems cool, but too narrow to run competatively.

[Clark Kant]

Reassembling Skeleton is from M11

Doesn't mean the card doesn't have potential. It could have easily been overlooked. How about in something like this...

4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom
4 Reassembling Skeleton
4 Nether Spirit

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
1 Raven's Crime

3 Dark Ritual/The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales

20 Swamp

The deck should be called Upkeep since it plays a dozen different upkeep triggers, and you can trigger them all in whichever order you want.

For example, at start of upkeep, bounce Nether Sprit to your hand for Noetic Scales, discard it to Necrogen Mists, return it to play using Nether Spriit's trigger, sac it to Contamination. That works right?

[DrJones]

That's not the issue. Reassembling Skeleton is a pretty good card overall, but I think reimpressions don't belong to this thread.

[Bryant Cook]

I will pay 1 for an equip to give my generals and utility dorks Trollshroud instead of Shroud any day fo the week. I'll go on a limb and bank that card becomes an EDH staple.

I'm considering cutting Greaves in Godo for this or run both, but I hate the fact I can't equip other equipment to Godo after Greaves without another dude. It's a pain in the ass.

[Sims]

I'm considering cutting Greaves in Godo for this or run both, but I hate the fact I can't equip other equipment to Godo after Greaves without another dude. It's a pain in the ass.

Exactly. I can see the argument for running both, but space is at a premium in your Godo list, and i just see these new boots as being a direct upgrade. Giving you the ability to equip these, and then land some of the more expensive equipment after teh fact and not have to expose Godo by switching boots to another critter is huge.

As mentioned before, other (mostly voltron) generals such as Kemba also benefit greatly from this over regular boots.

[Pneumatiker]

For example, at start of upkeep, bounce Nether Sprit to your hand for Noetic Scales, discard it to Necrogen Mists, return it to play using Nether Spriit's trigger, sac it to Contamination. That works right?

No, that doesn't work. If the Nether Spirit isn't in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep, it won't add a trigger to the stack. That is because of the "interventing 'if' clause":



603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game." Its controller's life total is checked as that player's upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn't trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player's life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.

[Barook]

Hunter's Insight seems cool, but too narrow to run competatively.
I wouldn't say narrow, but rather risky as it can be an easy 2on1 trade if your opponent kills your critter. At least it's an instant to play it on your unblocked creatures.

But still, being able to potentially draw that many cards for :2::g: shouldn't be overlooked, especially with all the cheap fat and pump in Legacy around.

It also happens to have great synergy with Exalted creatures.

[Cire]

I wouldn't say narrow, but rather risky as it can be an easy 2on1 trade if your opponent kills your critter. At least it's an instant to play it on your unblocked creatures.

But still, being able to potentially draw that many cards for :2::g: shouldn't be overlooked, especially with all the cheap fat and pump in Legacy around.

It also happens to have great synergy with Exalted creatures.

I think it's perfect with invigorate. Creature goes unblocked, opponent takes 1 extra dmg, and you draw 4 cards on top of your creatures power. Oh and nobel heirach gives you another point of dmg and another card. Best thing is each of those cards is decent on its own...

ActuallyPlay it in poison pump... If your pumps aren't letting you go lethal, they instead get you a full hand...

[trivial_matters]

Goblin Arsonist is from Rise of the Eldrazi. Gideon's Avenger is 2/2.

[TsumiBand]

When I saw Hunter's Insight, I thought right away of Keep Watch. That card managed to see about zero play and has an effect which doesn't even depend on your attacking to work. I feel like, running it in a deck without trollshroud (err hexproof, meh) guys will just see you getting twofer'd a lot :(

[Koby]

yadda yadda yadda

blue is overpowered etc

ジェイスの文書管理人/Jace's Archivist :1::u::u:
クリーチャー- ヴィダルケン・ウィザード/Creature- Vedalken Wizard
,:
各プレイヤーは自分の手札を捨て、その後これによりいずれかのプレイヤーが捨てたカードの枚数のうち最も大きい枚数に等しいだけのカードを引く。
:u:,T: Each player discards his or her hand,then draws cards equal to the greatest number of cards a player discarded this way.

「これは聖なる責務だ。師ベレレンの信頼こそが、私の永遠の忠誠の源だ。」
2/2

Artist:James Ryan 59/249

Windfall Spellshaper. Anyone yet unconvinced R&D loves them some :u: Kool aid?

[Beatusnox]

what rarity is this being printed at?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

yadda yadda yadda


the manacost is the only thing what is not broken! Rly strong effect. Abuseable in many ways, madness, gy strategies and even simple CA

[Darksteel]

what rarity is this being printed at?

Looks like it's a rare. O:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

the manacost is the only thing what is not broken! Rly strong effect. Abuseable in many ways, madness, gy strategies and even simple CA

However, manacost is what usually determines actual power level. At that cost I think Magus of the Bazaar would be better in any graveyard strategy, and that card doesn't see play.

[Beatusnox]

Possible two card combo with Molten Psyche. But that is more of a standard fantasy than legacy actuality.

[colo]

Stonehorn Dignitary 3W
Creature - Rhino Soldier
When Stonehorn Dignitary enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next combat phase.
1/4

I guess that will make Venser (the PW) see some play after all, but most probably not in Legacy. :)

[Gheizen64]

yadda yadda yadda

blue is overpowered etc

ジェイスの文書管理人/Jace's Archivist :1::u::u:
クリーチャー- ヴィダルケン・ウィザード/Creature- Vedalken Wizard
,:
各プレイヤーは自分の手札を捨て、その後これによりいずれかのプレイヤーが捨てたカードの枚数のうち最も大きい枚数に等しいだけのカードを引く。
:u:,T: Each player discards his or her hand,then draws cards equal to the greatest number of cards a player discarded this way.

「これは聖なる責務だ。師ベレレンの信頼こそが、私の永遠の忠誠の源だ。」
2/2

Artist:James Ryan 59/249

Windfall Spellshaper. Anyone yet unconvinced R&D loves them some :u: Kool aid?

Hey, i could have been printed in red for some kind of cool pseudo wheel effect but no, let's give retarded effect to blue and blue only! Sigh.

Not that the card is good (a tad too slow for combo, magus of the bazaar is better for dredge etc), but for god sake.

[DrJones]

I think R&D gives blue this kind of stupid effects because in previous incarnations they were fine compared with the rest of stupid effects that were printed on the same set. I call it the Dragonstorm syndrome.

My eyes that are used to see balanced cards hurt by just looking at this card.

[Barook]

the manacost is the only thing what is not broken! Rly strong effect. Abuseable in many ways, madness, gy strategies and even simple CA
It's pretty much instant win with Mind over Matter once it's active. Too bad MoM's mana cost sucks.

[rufus]

It's pretty much instant win with Mind over Matter once it's active. Too bad MoM's mana cost sucks.

Necrotic Ooze+Devoted Druid
Though that's inferior to other ooze options.

Maybe with Magus of the Jar,Shallow Grave and Corpse Dance?

[Sims]

I think R&D gives blue this kind of stupid effects because in previous incarnations they were fine compared with the rest of stupid effects that were printed on the same set. I call it the Dragonstorm syndrome.

My eyes that are used to see balanced cards hurt by just looking at this card.


I'm just trying to make heads or tails of this post. Are you saying that the previous incarnation was fine (Windfall?) or are you referring to the previous incarnation as Magus of the Bazaar?

[Cire]

Another blue card

Lord of the Unreal UU
Human Wizard
All illusions have +1/+1 and hexproof
2/2

Yeah i know there are no (or few...i forget) good illusions out there, but combine with Mirror entity, the entity itself gets +1/+1 and hex proof and has this ability "0:creatures you control become 1/1's with hex proof." Then you can simply wait around with your untargetable army (you can always use the ability again for 0 mana in response to removal in response to your initial application of the ability....that makes sense although i said it in a profoundly stupid way i think) until you have enough mana to simply make your creature's bigger.

Add in the ussual Blue mix of counters and draw maybe mystic and swords (it's hex proof not shroud)... and there you go.

[Humphrey]

If Id run a tribal with shrouded Mirror Entitiy, Id play faeries with Scion of Oona.

The Windfallguy sucks, its slow and the effect hardly abusable.

[bakofried]

It will be to Windfall what Fauna Shaman is to Survival, so shut your complain-hole, Jones.

And it's a blue ability (Windfall) not a red card (Wheel of Fortune) before the whole color-pie argument starts up.

[DrJones]

I'm just trying to make heads or tails of this post. Are you saying that the previous incarnation was fine (Windfall?) or are you referring to the previous incarnation as Magus of the Bazaar?Magus of the Bazaar, which was the one IBA mentioned.


It will be to Windfall what Fauna Shaman is to Survival, so shut your complain-hole, Jones. While it's reasonable to think this way, I see one potential problem in that Windfall was not a repeatable effect, while this one could easily be one.

[trivial_matters]

If Id run a tribal with shrouded Mirror Entitiy, Id play faeries with Scion of Oona.
Scion of Oona only gives other faeries +1/+1 and shroud. This guy is strictly better with Mirror Entity because he protects himself too.

[Cenarius]

Another blue card

Lord of the Unreal UU
Human Wizard
All illusions have +1/+1 and hexproof
2/2

Yeah i know there are no (or few...i forget) good illusions out there, but combine with Mirror entity, the entity itself gets +1/+1 and hex proof and has this ability "0:creatures you control become 1/1's with hex proof." Then you can simply wait around with your untargetable army (you can always use the ability again for 0 mana in response to removal in response to your initial application of the ability....that makes sense although i said it in a profoundly stupid way i think) until you have enough mana to simply make your creature's bigger.

Add in the ussual Blue mix of counters and draw maybe mystic and swords (it's hex proof not shroud)... and there you go.

They do already have a Warchief.

[Atwa]

yadda yadda yadda

blue is overpowered etc

ジェイスの文書管理人/Jace's Archivist :1::u::u:
クリーチャー- ヴィダルケン・ウィザード/Creature- Vedalken Wizard
,:
各プレイヤーは自分の手札を捨て、その後これによりいずれかのプレイヤーが捨てたカードの枚数のうち最も大きい枚数に等しいだけのカードを引く。
:u:,T: Each player discards his or her hand,then draws cards equal to the greatest number of cards a player discarded this way.

「これは聖なる責務だ。師ベレレンの信頼こそが、私の永遠の忠誠の源だ。」
2/2

Artist:James Ryan 59/249

Windfall Spellshaper. Anyone yet unconvinced R&D loves them some :u: Kool aid?

This thing is soo going to be in the Memory Jar.dec EDH list i'm putting together at the moment. Windfall every turn with Megrim/Lilliana's Caress on the table? Yes please....

[bakofried]

And yet he does not have haste; so on top of needing to protect him from counterspells, one needs to deal with Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, and all forms of creature removal. There's enough options out there to deal with him, in several different colors, so he shouldn't make a huge splash.

[nedleeds]

This thing is soo going to be in the Memory Jar.dec EDH list i'm putting together at the moment. Windfall every turn with Megrim/Lilliana's Caress on the table? Yes please....

Just play Chains with him. Then play out of your graveyard. You mind twist your opponent and mill him for X on every activation.

[edgewalker]

Another blue card

Lord of the Unreal UU
Human Wizard
All illusions have +1/+1 and hexproof
2/2

Yeah i know there are no (or few...i forget) good illusions out there, but combine with Mirror entity, the entity itself gets +1/+1 and hex proof and has this ability "0:creatures you control become 1/1's with hex proof." Then you can simply wait around with your untargetable army (you can always use the ability again for 0 mana in response to removal in response to your initial application of the ability....that makes sense although i said it in a profoundly stupid way i think) until you have enough mana to simply make your creature's bigger.

Add in the ussual Blue mix of counters and draw maybe mystic and swords (it's hex proof not shroud)... and there you go.

A lot of the illusions that have been printed have some pretty decent bodies compared to their cost. The only problem is they die once they're targeted. This guy seems like a neat interaction with that

[lorddotm]

A lot of the illusions that have been printed have some pretty decent bodies compared to their cost. The only problem is they die once they're targeted. This guy seems like a neat interaction with that

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are still not good enough.

[Malchar]

The thing that really sucks is that the new lord is not itself an illusion. However, this will certainly help my Gossamer Phantasm deck.

[edgewalker]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they are still not good enough.

You're probably right

EDIT: Also, Zombie Infestation is going to be legal in standard again. I wanna break this soooo bad.

[dahcmai]

That illusion lord reminds me a ton of Eldamari, Lord of Leaves. He gives about the same exact effect. Shroud and another ability. He sucked because he couldn't protect himself. That was his largest downfall. I remember for a short time, he got errata which made him an Elf so his ability hit him. He turned into a very playable card for a short time, then they put it back. Sad face. This illusion guy has the same problem.

[bakofried]

Correction. Zombie Infestation, Bloodghast, and Reassembling Skeleton are going to be in Standard. This may be nutty, if the right pieces fall together.

[Aggro_zombies]

That illusion lord reminds me a ton of Eldamari, Lord of Leaves. He gives about the same exact effect. Shroud and another ability. He sucked because he couldn't protect himself. That was his largest downfall. I remember for a short time, he got errata which made him an Elf so his ability hit him. He turned into a very playable card for a short time, then they put it back. Sad face. This illusion guy has the same problem.
You forgot that Elves are a good tribe and Illusions are not. I like the guy for my casual fodder Mistform Ultimus tribal Illusions EDH deck, but even if he shrouded himself he'd still be only as good as the (mostly) mediocre tribe he's commanding.

[dahcmai]

It's sadly one of those cards that will get decent with time, but will probably be overshadowed by the more prominent ones equally. ie. Merfolk.


Hopefully we get Squee or something else to make Infestation really decent. Though the idea of having Bloodghast, Vengevine, and a few of the other guys in the format at the same time reminds me of standard Dredge. It might even be worth using that Jace's dude at that point for that.

Still haven't seen anything I care about for Legacy though.

[bakofried]

Oh fuck I forgot about that green monster. Hey, standard might get run over by green monsters fueled by a two-mana enchantment! That'll be an eye-opener.

[kiblast]

Lord of the Unreal UU
Human Wizard
All illusions have +1/+1 and hexproof
2/2



Hey, I knew my playset of Krovikan Mist could have been brokenz one day. Illusionary Stompy FTFW.

Edit:Errant Ephemeron. Hooray.

[menace13]

Mistform Ultimus tribal Illusions EDH deck.
What? How does it even win, list? Do prey tell?

[lorddotm]

Correction. Zombie Infestation, Bloodghast, and Reassembling Skeleton are going to be in Standard. This may be nutty, if the right pieces fall together.

Throw in a smidgen of Chandra's Phoenix, and this might actually be a deck.

[Gheizen64]

Seems like Garruk, Jace and Chandra are NEW version. No JTMS or Ablaze, completely new. This is indeed interesting, and will new Jace be the nuts again? Hoping for a RR/1RR Chandra personally.

[Tsnowflake]

more illusion hype! Aether Figment lol

[Koby]

Seems like Garruk, Jace and Chandra are NEW version. No JTMS or Ablaze, completely new. This is indeed interesting, and will new Jace be the nuts again? Hoping for a RR/1RR Chandra personally.

+1
I've waiting for a Red planeswalker that doesn't lose to a Grizzly Bear.

[Koby]

What? How does it even win, list? Do prey tell?

I can imagine it's like Kinko's EDH deck. (Thada Adel - Hey that's a nice <permanent> - YOINK!)

[Barook]

Seems like Garruk, Jace and Chandra are NEW version. No JTMS or Ablaze, completely new. This is indeed interesting, and will new Jace be the nuts again? Hoping for a RR/1RR Chandra personally.
I think they're gonna be a bit more careful with Jace this time if they're indeed new versions.

And a red planeswalker that doesn't suck? Don't get your hopes too high.

[Infinitium]

Onyx Mage - 1B
Creature - Human Wizard Uncommon
1{B}: Target creature you control gains deathtouch until end of turn.


This is interesting because of its creature type, Grim Lavamancer and Vedalken Aethermage. Good? Not so much, but the thought of a semi-viable Ubr Wizard deck makes me giddy, and the ability to actually kill large creatures is a step on the way of getting there.

[Jak]

This is interesting because of its creature type, Grim Lavamancer and Vedalken Aethermage. Good? Not so much, but the thought of a semi-viable Ubr Wizard deck makes me giddy, and the ability to actually kill large creatures is a step on the way of getting there.

You already have Trinket Mage (Wizard) ---> Basilisk Collar.

There have been many great wizards anyway (Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Trinket Mage, Grim), so I doubt this card makes it viable.

[Aggro_zombies]

What? How does it even win, list? Do prey tell?

Aether Figment
Amoeboid Changeling
Cloudskate
Errant Ephemeron
Krovikan Mist
Mistform Sliver
Mistform Stalker
Riftwing Cloudskate
Shapesharer
Winged Sliver
Drift of Phantasms
Fleeting Image
Illusionary Servant
Mistform Dreamer
Mistform Wall
Mistform Warchief
Phantom Warrior
Clone
Mistform Seaswift
Phantom Beast
Shifting Sliver
Somnophore
Solemn Simulacrum
Mistform Shrieker
Mistform Wakecaster
Synapse Sliver
Cloud Dragon
Draining Whelk
Ephemeron
Zephid
Misform Skyreaver

Mystical Tutor
Impulse
Blue Sun's Zenith
Fact or Fiction
Jace's Ingenuity

Condescend
Power Sink
Counterspell
Spell Crumple
Cryptic Command
Rewind
Summoner's Bane
Force of Will

Flood
Mind Games
Repeal
Echoing Truth
Back to Basics
Capsize
Equilibrium
Repulse
Oblivion Stone
VEdalken Shackles
Opposition
Evacuation

Call to Mind
Squeeze

Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauable
Sky Diamond
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun

Academy Ruins
Coral Atoll
Halimar Depths
Scrying Sheets
Swarmyard
Vesuva
30 Snow-Covered Island

Yes, this deck is intentionally bad. It's made with the scraps and leftovers I had after putting together other decks (hence no things like Mana Drain, Time Stop, etc.). But it's pretty fun to play every now and then.

Basically, since most of your guys are evasive, you just beat down. You can make Mistform guys into Slivers to either give them flying (for the few that lack it) or make them unblockable (with Shifting Sliver). If you have Synapse out, you can draw oodles of cards every combat step as well.

The deck could probably use a Psionic Sliver and a Hivestone.

[atv]

Stonehorn Dignitary 3W
Creature - Rhino Soldier
When Stonehorn Dignitary enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next combat phase.
1/4


Ye, it won't be any good but since I've always loved Astral Slide I'm still tempted to try it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Grim Lavamancer is in M12.

[five]

Grim Lavamancer is in M12.

Sweet. More Standard players getting into Legacy Burn.

I could see Red being pretty nutty in Standard for the next few months too.

[Shawon]

Is there a legit reason why WotC hasn't included Tribal cards in Core Sets? I don't think the designation of Tribal as a card type should be limited to expansion sets. Besides, for new players, I think it's cool if Core Sets have Tribal cards so they can see for themselves what those cards do.

[Antonius]

does M12 lavamancer with the horrible art mean that my Torment ones will maintain their value better?

[DrJones]

As of note, a few days ago I was looking at which cards were missing in Modern Zoo that were available in Legacy Zoo and Grim Lavamancer was one of them, so seeing it reprinted in M12 is a bad signal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When they reprint Hymn, Force and Wasteland, it's time to panic, I think.

Oh, Modern Zoo also doesn't let you play Sylvan Library though.

[DrJones]

The only missing cards from Zoo are Fireblast and Sylvan Library. There are problems about those cards, though. Fireblast is a card they have regretted printing, which is they polite way for R&D to say it will never be seen again in Standard, and Sylvan Library is a card they want to print, but can't due to cheating issues.

Also, reprinting Force, Hymn, dual lands and Wasteland would be wonderful for legacy, not the other way around. The difference is that all of these cards are what I call format-defining cards, and there isn't a purpose in creating a different format like Modern if it shares the same set of Format-defining cards than Legacy. Refusal to reprint those cards is what originates the need to create Modern in the first place.

[wcm8]

Sylvan Library is a card they want to print, but can't due to cheating issues.

They should just print a 'fixed' version of it that does essentially the same thing. Something like a 1G enchantment that says "during your upkeep, you may look at the top three cards of your library. You may put up to two of those cards in your hand at the cost of 4 life a piece. Then replace the cards back in any order." Bam, done, does pretty much the same thing (arguably better if you combine it with Dark Confidant or the like), but no chance of cheating since you aren't drawing them, just looking at them.

[Mr. Safety]

Another blue card

Lord of the Unreal UU
Human Wizard
All illusions have +1/+1 and hexproof
2/2

Yeah i know there are no (or few...i forget) good illusions out there, but combine with Mirror entity, the entity itself gets +1/+1 and hex proof and has this ability "0:creatures you control become 1/1's with hex proof." Then you can simply wait around with your untargetable army (you can always use the ability again for 0 mana in response to removal in response to your initial application of the ability....that makes sense although i said it in a profoundly stupid way i think) until you have enough mana to simply make your creature's bigger.

Add in the ussual Blue mix of counters and draw maybe mystic and swords (it's hex proof not shroud)... and there you go.

Will this make Meloku playable in legacy again? Probably not...I absolutely LOVED building decks around that guy, like 2 years ago...

[DragoFireheart]

When they reprint Hymn, Force and Wasteland, it's time to panic, I think.


Calling it now: WotC will re-print Force of Will with Jace as part of the artwork.

[Amon Amarth]

When they reprint Hymn, Force and Wasteland, it's time to panic, I think.

Oh, Modern Zoo also doesn't let you play Sylvan Library though.

Or Price of Progress. And Chain Lightning.

Edit: Incinerate is also in M12 as well.

[Tacosnape]

Angelic Destiny seems absolutely nutbar stupid on Hexproof guys. Or on Mirran Crusader with a Mother of Runes out.

Also, I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of way to break Jace's Archivist.

[Gheizen64]

Angelic Destiny seems absolutely nutbar stupid on Hexproof guys. Or on Mirran Crusader with a Mother of Runes out.

Also, I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of way to break Jace's Archivist.

An enchant creature that's playable in a format with StP? Dunno, imho it will remain unplayed. For 1 more mana you get BSA that may be a bit worse (no functional haste, no pseudo-recurr) but is also less prone to card disadvantage.

[Barook]

Angelic Destiny seems absolutely nutbar stupid on Hexproof guys. Or on Mirran Crusader with a Mother of Runes out.
For :2::w::w:, you could also have Elspeth who is good by herself. 4 mana just seems too much for an aura.

[Tacosnape]

Do note that I said "On a Hexproof guy," in reference to Angelic Destiny. Or with an active Mother of Runes. So, like, if you didn't figure this out? I was already aware STP slaughters the card.

As for Elspeth, you're probably right. But the lure of this thing on, say, Troll Ascetic or Silhana Ledgewalker, in some kind of Green Sun's Zenith target set that runs a 1-2-3-4 CMC Hexproof set? Seems possible to me.

[dahcmai]

I tried to build something like that even going as far as using Taoist Hermit to keep in the theme. It only really needed an enchantment that turned the tide right then and there instead of Rancor or some such.

[RogueMTG]

I tried to build something like that even going as far as using Taoist Hermit to keep in the theme. It only really needed an enchantment that turned the tide right then and there instead of Rancor or some such.

Haha... we were experimenting with a similar deck, trying to abuse Daybreak Coronet as that "turn the tide" card. As you might imagine, it was rather inconsistent.

[workingdude]

New Jace with the following abilities:

Jace, Memory Adept
3UU
PW - Jace (M)
Loyalty - 4
+1 - Draw a card. Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
0 - Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
-7 - Any number of target players each draw twenty cards.

I like the +1 ability with sensei's top to get rid of dead cards that would normally be put in the third card position.

[troopatroop]

New Jace with the following abilities:

Jace, Memory Adept
3UU
PW - Jace (M)
Loyalty - 4
+1 - Draw a card. Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
0 - Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
-7 - Any number of target players each draw twenty cards.

I like the +1 ability with sensei's top to get rid of dead cards that would normally be put in the third card position.

Unplayable garbage at 5cc. Get that tfo of here. his 0 ability litterally says "do nothing".

[ivanpei]

New jace is crap. However it really does hint that narcos and bridges (both future shifted) are coming back in innistrad. Can you imagine jace 3 with graveyard shenanigans in standard? Has the potential to be ridiculous. Crap in legacy though.

[Aggro_zombies]

New Jace seems positively brutal in Limited. Build around him and he just kills them, and in only a couple turns, too.

[Tammit67]

The only missing cards from Zoo are Fireblast and Sylvan Library. There are problems about those cards, though.... Sylvan Library is a card they want to print, but can't due to cheating issues.


How is there a cheating issue? You keep the cards seperate or you get a game loss.

[cdr]

You keep the cards separate or you pay 8, actually.

The real issue with Sylvan Library is the complexity - if they decided they wanted to "reprint" it, it'd likely be simplified.

[Arsenal]

God awful crap. Even Jace 1.0 is leagues better than Jace 3.0.

[edgarps22]

While Jace 3.0 <<<< Jace 2.0 I am actually glad. I really want them to push say Liliana 2.0 (fingers crossed). Jace has seen his glory, and will continue to do so, I really did not want to see another broken version of him. I want there to be playable Planeswalkers in each color for us to play with in Legacy, not just Blue and White ones. I pray for a good black planeswalker and green, because the current, and original, versions of Garruk and Liliana are ok, but not exactly special. I would love to see a special one of each.

[cdr]

It's already been figured out that M12 Chandra and Garruk (and Jace) are new versions. Sorin and Gideon are obviously the same.

[Beatusnox]

if innistrad is as Grave Centric as they are alluding to, then Jace could actually be a powerhouse if they print a way to make him easier to cast, Possible in a U/R deck with some kind of ritual base? Or maybe with the new U/R planeswalker.

[honestabe]

idk why so many people are hating on jace 3.0. He seems like a solid 2-of in standard U/W or U/B control, especially with Gideon to protect him. His mill 10 can really put away blue based mirrors quickly as well.

[Koby]

Arguably faster than Jace 2.0 can - mill 60 vs 5x Fateseal + Ult

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Is everyone really going to do this whole song and dance again? Jace, Memory Adept is bad/crap/unplayable? Really? Seriously? Fateseal and Unsummon are unplayable as cards, yet somehow if you put them on a 2UU permanent you have a top five best blue card of all time, but "draw +1 for three turns, then draw your deck" is shitty?

For 3UU, which is very, very realistically achievable in a post-Misstep world, you get two draw steps per turn (btw, the best creature ever printed does that too, except he costs life and isn't a planeswalker) until you draw. twenty(20). cards. The card's "0" ability is a four turn clock. You all realize that people pay the same cmc, but in a crappy color for Gideon, right?

Is Jace 3.0 better than 2.0? Mmm they're certainly comparable. Maybe not always better, but absolutely sometimes. They're easily in the same league. This is my inb4 "zomgJACEISSOBROKEN!!1!11!" whines after he hits $60+ because he's an easy EASY 4-of in Standard that bleeds over into powered formats. Willful ignorance is only an excuse for so long. As far as I can tell, the Legacy community used it's fair share up on Jace 2.0.

[spirit of the wretch]

if you put them on a 2UU permanent you have a top five best blue card of all time

Wow, this is a bold claim! A little off topic but:

Brainstorm
Tinker
Flash
Ancestral Recall
Force of Will
Timewalk
Mind's Desire
Windfall
Timetwister
Time Spiral
Mana Drain
High Tide

Blue had his fair share of broken stuff over the years!

Back to topic: The fact that this costs 5 compared to 4 alone makes it way worse than Jace 2.0 (which, by the way, I don't consider to be a bad thing at all!). He also can't protect himself (which Jace 2.0 can).
I don't see him beeing played in Legacy, but then again, I'm not really known for my spoiled card evaluation abilities...

[Tacosnape]

Jace 3 is interesting. He's more about going for the kill than any other Planeswalker I've seen.

He'll never be Jace TMS. Nothing ever will. Mind Sculptor can do everything. It can draw, disrupt, protect itself, and kill.

Jace 3 is possibly even better at ending the game than Jace the Mind Sculptor, but has absolutely no means to defend himself, which I think will be his balancing point. I think he's way too strong to strictly call win more in any format, but you need control of the board for him to be at his most efficient, which I think will keep him out of Legacy. I'm sure some people will play him and win with him, but it won't really be because of him. It'll be because they got board control, and he was just the win piece.

Comparing either of them to Jace 1 isn't really logical, though. Jace 1 was never a Planeswalker. It was a draw spell disguised as one. It's more comparable to Ancestral Visions or Standstill than Mind Sculptor or Memory Adept.

[John Cox]

He's at least as good as jace 2. If you think about it jace 2.0 he comes down one turn earlier, has one less loyalty and requires more loyaty for his finisher, I would rather spend that turn developing my manabase and board position than protecting a planeswalker. This guy also lets me draw and enhance my board for his +1, so I can play him before everything is locked down tight, rather than waiting till I control everything and fatesealing for 5 turns. The synergy with Sensei's divining top also make the +1 more appealing.

[Kich867]

He may actually push mono blue control to a legitimate deck again in standard. With Emrakul leaving standard soon there will be no means for people to shuffle their graveyard into their library outside of Elixir of Immortality which absolutely no one runs.

If you can get him in play with a Contagion clasp already on the table--drop him, +1 him, next turn just 0 ability and proliferate until you can ulti.

[Mr. Safety]

New Jace is designed to functionally operate like Traumatize I think. While it is too slow for legacy, it is officially kitchen table AWESOME next to said Traumatize and Haunting Echoes. Casual and standard reanimator may become a very real possibility, especially if they reprint something great like Dread Return or Makeshift Mannequin in M12/Innistrad.

I agree... jace 1.0 is far and above jace 3.0...but jace 2.0 is king. What makes the new jace so bad is his weak primary ability...it just doesn't do anything significant for you against your opponent. Ther are much better graveyard enablers, and even standards cantrips like Preordain are superior to his first ability. Look at Sorin Markov's #1&2 abilities...he may cost 6 mana, but at least his abilities are functionally GOOD.

What I'm looking forward to is Garruk 2.0...long overdue and hopefully at the 3-4 mana slot. Garruk 1.0 is still my favorite PW.

[teliot]

Is everyone really going to do this whole song and dance again? Jace, Memory Adept is bad/crap/unplayable? Really? Seriously? Fateseal and Unsummon are unplayable as cards,

Brainstorm isn't, though. Strange you didn't mention that one.

[Gaius Darkfire]

I could easily see Jace 3.0 in a Type 2 UW control deck with Gideon and Wrath effects. It's not overwhelmingly playable like 2.0 in Legacy and other formats, but I would put it on par with 1.0 for what it is trying to do.

[Amon Amarth]

Jace 3.0 should see some play in Standard depending on what the environment looks like. It's an obvious hit with casual players. It's really fun with some interesting tension between all of his abilities. I really like him. This guy is good.

[Shawon]

I have an idea to push mono-colored planeswalkers in the future, especially for Core Sets, and that is to make them all have four planeswalker abilities. I think one template WoTC could use in designing planeswalkers is to make the multi-colored planeswalkers have three abilities with at least a broken ultimate (or just two powerful abilities), and have the mono-colored planeswalkers have four abilities but a little more level. Having this standard spreads out the incentive for playing both mono-colored and multicolored planeswalkers.

[Kich867]

New Jace is designed to functionally operate like Traumatize I think. While it is too slow for legacy, it is officially kitchen table AWESOME next to said Traumatize and Haunting Echoes. Casual and standard reanimator may become a very real possibility, especially if they reprint something great like Dread Return or Makeshift Mannequin in M12/Innistrad.

I agree... jace 1.0 is far and above jace 3.0...but jace 2.0 is king. What makes the new jace so bad is his weak primary ability...it just doesn't do anything significant for you against your opponent. Ther are much better graveyard enablers, and even standards cantrips like Preordain are superior to his first ability. Look at Sorin Markov's #1&2 abilities...he may cost 6 mana, but at least his abilities are functionally GOOD.

What I'm looking forward to is Garruk 2.0...long overdue and hopefully at the 3-4 mana slot. Garruk 1.0 is still my favorite PW.

I'd disagree that 1.0 is far and above 3.0--1.0 almost explicitly cannot win you the game on his own, a real issue when it comes to blue decks. 1.0 also requires you, for him to stay alive, to give the opponent cards which is never good. If you want to use his ultimate, you give your opponent a brand new hand over the course of a few turns--yeah the idea is that you can out-control him, but odds are they have more threats than you do counters.

If anything, Jace 1.0 is a worse Phyrexian Arena.

Jace 3.0, however, can be guarded in standard by many great smaller blue creatures for the turns necessary to win. Augury Owl, phyrexian metamorph, etc. He can win you the game in the new standard meta where absolutely no one would run a way to save their graveyard. And if there's one thing a blue deck can do, it's run the clock. I think a jace 3.0 deck is going to have to stack bounce and creature counters, along with a healthy supply of 2-4 mana creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

Jace 3.0 looks neat for standard but his 5cmc is too much for Legacy. He doesn't seem potent enough for such a high cost.

[bruizar]

The timmy in me wants to make a deck with:

3 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Hedron Crab
1 Sword of Body and MInd
1 Batterskull
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Force of Will
4 Archive Trap
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

x Thoughtseize / Swords to Plowshares

Ugh, if only

[Arsenal]

Historically, the only competitive/tournament viable Planeswalkers are the ones that are able to protect themselves on the ground (Ajani V's tap ability, Jace 2.0's Unsummon ability, Elspeth 1.0's token making ability, etc). I don't really see how Jace 3.0 is going to survive unless you already have comfortable board position when you cast him, and if you do, then why don't you cast something like Gideon and just win in 3 turns? (I'm speaking in terms of Standard, although the Planeswalker-protecting-themselves thing also applies to Legacy).

[dahcmai]

One of these days after they keep pumping out more and more mill cards that suck without all the other good ones, Legacy will have a decent mill deck (without a Painter's servant in it) just because they keep upping the quality of the mill cards. It's funny, but eventually it will be true.

[godryk]

Emo Jace is emo.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263716_10150662514655307_201120755306_18891150_1226497_n.jpg

[bruizar]

dragonball ZZZZZZZZZ

[plus_ten]

Emo Jace is emo.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263716_10150662514655307_201120755306_18891150_1226497_n.jpg

Goddamn! He should really put that hoodie back on.

On topic: Yet to see anything playable. Griffin Rider wants to take a ride on a Mutavault, and that's about the most efficient thing we have from M11 as of now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Emo Jace is emo.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263716_10150662514655307_201120755306_18891150_1226497_n.jpg

YOUR NAME IS JACE

YOU JUST GOT BANNED IN TYPE 2

YOU GOT A NEW CARD IN M12 BUT IT'S CONSIDERABLY UNDERPOWERED (http://www.collegehumor.com/video/787267/derricks-emo-song)

[menace13]

Emo Jace is emo.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263716_10150662514655307_201120755306_18891150_1226497_n.jpg
I always wished I could get my hair to look and stay that way under any conditions and always look freshly styled even after when you know it shouldn't be. Yeah, some dreams are too vast for mortal men.

[kiblast]

Ok, it is truly underpowered specially at 5cc. But his +1 combined with Sensei's Divining Top is pure gold. I realize he's very fast at ending games, and he comes down at 4 loyalty which is huge. But he can't protect himself. I can't see this played out of standard.

Edit. This guy is fucking selling at 160$ per playset. Can someone explain why?
Edit2. Ah, standard.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ok, it is truly underpowered specially at 5cc. But his +1 combined with Sensei's Divining Top is pure gold.

Edit. This guy is fucking selling at 160$ per playset. Can someone explain why?

http://goodgamery.com/index.php/2009/12/26/from-the-vault-jace/

[Purgatory]

http://goodgamery.com/index.php/2009/12/26/from-the-vault-jace/

Sweet Jesus, I'd buy the fuck out of that!

[evanmartyr]

I dunno, new Jace is a mill option that doesn't cost any mana after you've played him and is FAST. Realistically, it's a 4-5 turn clock. It can also draw you cards, and fill your graveyard, and theoretically it can just sit there being a howling mine for you only and then boom you go off like woah.

So either it lands and promptly starts putting you over the top in pure control, or it lands and represents a fairly decent clock against a lot of decks, or it lands and ramps up a bit then you auto go off with your combo win condition (seriously...20 cards? What deck can possibly stop you from going off that turn assuming you have free counters?)

Might be a good option for Turbo-land type things? I'm fairly certain he's not better than old jace in Legacy, but that's not really a groundbreaking statement.

On a somewhat related note, I'm sick of all these 5 mana Planeswalkers. If it costs 5, it should protect itself.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Unconfirmed new Planeswalkers (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6918880#post6918880), Garruk[-'s] Predator and Chandra The Fire That Is On Fire.

Abilities are believably balanced and/or flavor work appropriately crappy enough for these to be real. Chandra The Fire That Is On Fire looks maybe playable in Legacy.

[evanmartyr]

Garruk's pretty bleh. Chandra is fairly damn good, especially in type 2. A lot of the problems the red decks are running into these days is just random blockers, and being able to either plow through those or just blow them up is really, really good. Her casting cost is le sex, as well.

I'm all about the 3cc Planeswalkers, even if their effects are really poor compared to the 4-5cc ones. Seems like each Planeswalker should have a 3, 4, 5 version if they're major characters. So far, 2012 seems good.

On second perusal, those seem pretty fake. I still like Chandra, but eh...

[troopatroop]

Chandra is okay, but I'd hoped for more for the 3cc red one :-/

Goblin Sligh could use her well, X for 3 seems really good for swarm.

[Gheizen64]

Chandra looks playable, need to test her in some lists. The +1 is basically your creatures can't be blocked. The -x seems extremely situational at best. The -1 is fantastic and if you can activate it more than once it's an incredibily good deal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Chandra seems like what a 3cc Planeswalker should be. You drop it, it's versatile, it's not super resilient but you don't need to get too much activation out of it in the decks you'd play it in.

Also I would literally never get tired of making fun of the name so that's just frosting.

[evanmartyr]

Chandra seems like what a 3cc Planeswalker should be. You drop it, it's versatile, it's not super resilient but you don't need to get too much activation out of it in the decks you'd play it in.

Also I would literally never get tired of making fun of the name so that's just frosting.

"the Ardent Fire"? How is that a hilarious name?

[tsabo_tavoc]

I like this 1RR Chandra, too bad she is probably fake due to the card number issue. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=331893&page=52)

[Koby]

"the Ardent Fire"? How is that a hilarious name?

Ardent - "fiery, hot, warmth of feeling from being zealous, shining, glowing" etc

It's like calling Frost Titan cool.

[Arsenal]

I always thought that ardent meant devoted, dedicated, etc.

[Amon Amarth]

From dictionary.com:

— adj
1. expressive of or characterized by intense desire or emotion; passionate: ardent love
2. intensely enthusiastic; eager: an ardent longing
3. glowing, flashing, or shining: ardent eyes
4. rare burning: an ardent fever

Seems fitting and not redundant :P

[Cire]

looks like mtgsally ruled they are fake at the moment

[kiblast]

Hooray, Chandra is now playable. I love this 3cc Walker. Way better design than Beleren.

Edit: Fake cards are fake. Sad.

[dahcmai]

I don't like them much. I'm kind of happy since it means I won't have to buy any of this set so far for Standard even.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I see a couple cool things in M12 but nothing Legacy grade yet. Chandra's Phoenix could potentially see play but I don't think it's Legacy grade in the end but recursion and evasion and haste for 3 probably makes it the best new card yet. New Jace is good for Standard. I mean they fixed Jace TMS so what more could you want. As far as Legacy 1000x no, he will never see play because his name is Jace and there is only room for one Jace in Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

From dictionary.com:

— adj
1. expressive of or characterized by intense desire or emotion; passionate: ardent love
2. intensely enthusiastic; eager: an ardent longing
3. glowing, flashing, or shining: ardent eyes
4. rare burning: an ardent fever

Seems fitting and not redundant :P

Ardent has become a colloquial/poetic term for passion, but the literal meaning is "on fire." It is like saying, "Okay, so this Frost Titan planeswalker person is really detached and callous, what's a term for that, oh Icy." And calling it the Icy Frost Titan.

[Gheizen64]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SvuohkX8ryw/TLv3f1kmIpI/AAAAAAAAADc/FvXmnHI7CQY/s640/the_more_you_know2.jpg

While the origin of the word mean literally "burned by fire" (from the latin verb ardère), figurative uses of it are common in italian since the XIII century, see for example the form "sabbia ardente (ardent sand)->very hot sand" or "carboni ardenti (ardent coal)->very hot coal, but not literally on fire" (visive sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mBXDTZuQ4&feature=player_detailpage#t=128s ).

In this sense "fiamma ardente" in italian mean "hot/intense flame" and i suppose it's the case in english too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Icy is also commonly used as a figurative expression, but if you described someone as "The Icy Frost" it would be retarded for reasons that are obvious.

Regardless, fake card is fake so la now I'm sad.

[Vacrix]

Hunter's Insight looks like it could fit nicely into Berserk Stompy. A fresh hand after a combo turn sounds pretty tight.

[Arsenal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=334367

Skinshifter
1G
Creature - Human Shaman (R)
G: Choose one — Until end of turn, Skinshifter becomes a 4/4 Rhino and gains trample; or until end of turn, Skinshifter becomes a 2/2 Bird and gains flying; or until end of turn, Skinshifter becomes a 0/8 Plant. Activate this ability only once each turn.

[ktkenshinx]

Dredge gets a new toy. It is strong.

Vengeful Pharaoh
2BBB
Creature - Zombie
Deathtouch
Whenever combat damage is dealt to you or a planeswalker you control, if Vengeful Pharaoh is in your graveyard, destroy target creature attacking you, then put Vengeful Pharaoh on top of your library.
5/4

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/mm/hcrtfgudjndhfrfjsfsdsfkjfs.jpg

Reusable removal in Dredge. On color with Ichorid synergy.

[cdr]

Don't forget SCG's awesome new preview that they were hyping on SCGLive coverage: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22200_Exclusive_M12_Preview_Card_Scrambleverse.html

[dahcmai]

Hmmm, Vengeful is the first card that got my interest. That's pretty damned good. I don't play Dredge but I can figure out that one easy enough. It IS strong.

[(nameless one)]

Dredge gets a new toy. It is strong.

Vengeful Pharaoh
2BBB
Creature - Zombie
Deathtouch
Whenever combat damage is dealt to you or a planeswalker you control, if Vengeful Pharaoh is in your graveyard, destroy target creature attacking you, then put Vengeful Pharaoh on top of your library.
5/4

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/mm/hcrtfgudjndhfrfjsfsdsfkjfs.jpg

Reusable removal in Dredge. On color with Ichorid synergy.

For some reason, this reminded me of old school Yugioh.

[kicks_422]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the value this has in Dredge. As long as your graveyard isn't nuked, you should already be on your way to winning, correct? If you let creatures through so they die from Pharaoh, they'll just wipe out your Bridges. As for troublesome creatures (e.g. Teeg, Blazing Archon), they can just not attack with them.

[Pippin]

Dunno, that Vengeful Pharaoh seems kinda bad.

"Oh, you've got a 1/1, let me help you remove all my bridges!"

[dahcmai]

Well, it's going to take some restructuring, but it's basically a No Mercy that you can't get rid of easily with main deck items. I could see using it in several decks actually. You guys make a good point on dredge, but that's a seriously powerful effect.


Seems absolutely bonkers with Gideon.

[kicks_422]

Perhaps a Legacy port of the Crypt of Agadeem decks of Standard?

[Nihil Credo]

The way the trigger is phrased, if multiple creatures hit you, only one of them will die (per each Pharaoh). This makes its effect significantly worse than No Mercy.

[Infinitium]

Seems like it could work in a Loam control shell (and it does turn Entomb into removal, which is interesting).

[frenchy-man]

Dredge gets a new toy. It is strong.

Vengeful Pharaoh
2BBB
Creature - Zombie
Deathtouch
Whenever combat damage is dealt to you or a planeswalker you control, if Vengeful Pharaoh is in your graveyard, destroy target creature attacking you, then put Vengeful Pharaoh on top of your library.
5/4

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/mm/hcrtfgudjndhfrfjsfsdsfkjfs.jpg

Reusable removal in Dredge. On color with Ichorid synergy.

Madness completely LOVES this card !

[Infinitium]

Eh. I suppose it's free removal and all, but you still have to naturally draw it after pitching it (as opposed to dredging it right back where it belongs until you can hardcast it) and it's somewhat uncastable without an outlet. Now Intuitioning for this times two plus LftL (or whatever) is quite the disincentive to swing for anything but lethal.

Unfortunately, LftL/Intuition shells are already weak versus graveyard hate and this does little to alleviate that.

[Gheizen64]

Seems like it could work in a Loam control shell (and it does turn Entomb into removal, which is interesting).

Making Entomb insta-removal is a cute trick indeed. Add to the versatility to the card quite a bit, as it can already work as a tutor for card advantage anti-waste engines (LftL) and creatures (Vengevine, Bloodghast, all dredge creatures, etc...). Entombing for darkblast was cute already against decks with many X/1, but this is so much better against heavy hitters.

[Cire]

The pharaoh is freaking cool! But it doesn't seem that good with dredge, since helping their creature die just removes your bridges? Right?

I think the best application would be an intuition pile of Pharaoh, Gigapede, & perhaps darkblast? For a removal chain or something....or actually with fauna shaman

-----------

The skinshifter looks good, not tarm good but decent. It's a nice toy with doran

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One generally wants to deal with Goyfs and Knights before they hit you.

It might have been a decent Survival target but I don't see how it can work in any currently existing deck. As noted, in Dredge it has the added drawback of nuking your primary win condition.

[Nonex]

I'd give it a try in an Astral Slide shell to abuse Gideon Jura's +2 ability and recur it with Eternal Witness.

[dahcmai]

The way the trigger is phrased, if multiple creatures hit you, only one of them will die (per each Pharaoh). This makes its effect significantly worse than No Mercy.


Awww, I just re-read that. You are totally right. That makes him much worse. i was kind of liking that card for a sec. He might still be useable, but not quite as strong as first I thought. Then again, Intuition is always a favorite to dump things in the grave.

[Richard Cheese]

Initially I thought he might be good in Aggro Loam, but unless you have active Loam and sandbag a cycle land and leave mana open for it, he's just going to screw up Bob/Crusher activations.

[keys]

"Skinchanger" is pretty cool. Seems decent as a 1-of GSZ target.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think he will replace Tarmogoyf, but he has the potential to do essentially the same thing. He is certainly more flexible than Goyf, but hey, Goyf is Goyf. He blocks and attacks well making him perfect for both offense and defense (sound familiar?) His only constraint is that he can't become MORE than a 4/4 on his own as an attacker...he would need support to outclass Goyf offensively.

[Cire]

I don't think he will replace Tarmogoyf, but he has the potential to do essentially the same thing. He is certainly more flexible than Goyf, but hey, Goyf is Goyf. He blocks and attacks well making him perfect for both offense and defense (sound familiar?) His only constraint is that he can't become MORE than a 4/4 on his own as an attacker...he would need support to outclass Goyf offensively.

Yeah you're right that on his own he's worse than goyf, but in relation to other cards? This guy is better again moat decks & he's better in Doran decks.

Also It seems that Goyf is slowly being replaced with creatures that provide better utility. Instead of 4 goyf and 4 GSZ i could see

X Goyf
X GSZ
1 Skinchanger (Possible evasion, plus better defense)
1 Scavenging Ooze (good against grave dependant decks + can be bigger than goyf and can control opposing goyf's)

[rufus]

Does Primordial Hydra have a home as a win con in legacy, or is it to costly and slow compared to Tarmogoyf and Spawnwrithe



:x::g::g:
Creature - Hydra Mythic Rare
Primordial Hydra enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, double the number of +1/+1 counters on Primordial Hydra.
Primordial Hydra has trample as long as it has ten or more +1/+1 counters on it.

[Cire]

Does Primordial Hydra have a home as a win con in legacy, or is it to costly and slow compared to Tarmogoyf and Spawnwrithe

Let's look at it

1GG :
(2 [2], 4 [6], 8 [14], 16 [30]) 4 turn gold fish not counting the turn you play it
2GG :
(4 [4], 8 [12], 16 [28]) 3 turn gold fish not counting the turn you play it
3GG
(6 [6], 12 [18], 24 [42]) 3 turn gold fish not counting the turn you play it (with the possibility of a 2 turn gold fish taking into account phyrexian mana and fetch lands)


Seems really good in green stompy?

[Mr. Safety]

Ugh...not stompy (at least...not BERSERK stompy. Mono-Green Chalice Stompy? Maybe...)

The guy needs a deck that can protect him and keep the board under wraps while he grows, and clears the chaff to beat their face in. I like that he grows all by himself...nice work there...but the initial cost is a little 'meh') If he were changed only slightly to xG instea of xGG...you have a winner there. He becomes a 2-drop instead of a 3-drop, and he would get growing FASTER. Turn 2 seems fine for him (along with other famous beats like Goyf) considering he will grow almost as fast as Goyf. Not to mention he won't be graveyard dependant like Goyf is.

Still, it's the GG that kills him for legacy. For 3 mana you will concievably have a minimum of a 3/3-4/4 Knight of the Reliquary with little effort, and most likely a 3/4 Goyf with little to no effort.

[dahcmai]

I do like the Skinchanger. Huge blocking capability, flying when you want it and aggressive 4 power when clear. It's not limited to Sorcery speed on that either so it's pretty hard to clear it with pyroclasm and such too. I can get behind that. Good thing it's only a regular rare so it will be cheap to get.

[(nameless one)]

I can see Skinchanger shining in Maverick. That deck doesn't run Goyfs but with Skinchanger's versatility, it might see a singleton in that deck as a GSZ target. It can fly over blockers and with swords of X/Y or Jitte, that could be huge. It can also provide a huge blocker if KotR isn't quite big.

[ivanpei]

Phantasmal image is legacy playable. It's a 2 mana clone. Emrakul/Emmy killer. A bit narrow though. But there has to be some way to break this card.

[Malchar]

Phantasmal Image kills emrakul or progenitus for 1U. The downside isn't that bad because most of the time the only targetted spells are removal anyway.

Also, Visions of Beyond looks interesting, particularly in some kind of dedge deck.

[lordofthepit]

Any opinions on the new Ancestral Recall?

http://www.channelfireball.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/0080_MTGM12_EN_LR1.jpg

[ivanpei]

Vision is not that great in dredge, it doesn't do anything till it's too late/doesn't matter. Win more unless you are playing a super fast version that wants to chain draws like led dredge. Doesn't seem too consistent though.

Phantasmal image seems playable in Merfolk. It can copy a lord/silvergill/corralhelm or if you are light on dudes, an opposing tarmogoyf. Pretty good actually. Being 2cc and vialable makes this card very useful.

[luckme10]

Merfolk is pretty flooded on two drops though. It's hard to imagine anyone would want to copy a lord/silvergill/corralhelm when they could just play a lord/silvergill/corralhelm.

[Shawon]

If only Doomsday put your deck into the graveyard instead of exiling it...

[Tammit67]

Any opinions on the new Ancestral Recall?

http://www.channelfireball.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/0080_MTGM12_EN_LR1.jpg

Just one, I want 4

[John Cox]

Any opinions on the new Ancestral Recall?

http://www.channelfireball.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/0080_MTGM12_EN_LR1.jpg

It's the nuts in vintage, I can't see it doing a whole lot in legacy at the moment.

[Gheizen64]

The new satchet is also interesting.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120589&d=1309233956

A bit slow, but it's nice card advantage. Gain life and/or put lands into play. With top is basically an exploration + future sight.

[lordofthepit]

Vision is not that great in dredge, it doesn't do anything till it's too late/doesn't matter. Win more unless you are playing a super fast version that wants to chain draws like led dredge. Doesn't seem too consistent though.

Agreed, Dredge generally wants its draw spells to also serve as discard outlets. Careful Study, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, and in some lists, Deep Analysis, are more consistent, have better synergy, and just as powerful (for Dredge), if not more so. I don't think Dredge is the deck for this card.

[fallenphoenix]

I don't quite see Visions of Beyond making the cut for control.
It's useless until the very late game (yes, I consider "cycling" to be useless) and even then it's not stellar, just very cheap, which isn't really relevant b/c it's the late game and you should have a bunch of lands out. It's just not better than TfK or FoF, and those will give you an advantage at any point you cast them, especially when you need new cards the most, i.e. the mid game.

[Whippoorwill]

Merfolk is pretty flooded on two drops though. It's hard to imagine anyone would want to copy a lord/silvergill/corralhelm when they could just play a lord/silvergill/corralhelm.

With NO Rug being popular I wouldn't mind having access to a couple of them.

[tsabo_tavoc]

With NO Rug being popular I wouldn't mind having access to a couple of them.

This, and the Illusion costs less than some Merfolk lords. I hate Merfolk becoming better and better.

[Infinitium]

Buried Ruin

Land Rare
{T}: Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, {T}, Sacrifice Buried Ruin: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
History has buried its treasures deep.

Why, they fixed Academy Ruins? This looks good in (strictly) MUD decks.

[Mr. Safety]

It's the nuts in vintage, I can't see it doing a whole lot in legacy at the moment.

Concerning Visions of Beyond: I don't think it was intended to be nuts in legacy...it's intended to be nuts in standard. Remember that Hedron Crab is still in standard, and the new Jace has Dr. Obvious synergy here.

I remember reading an article on magicthegathering.com that said essentially that they wanted to make poison counters competitive...and they have done that (more succussfully in standard, but there are fringe Berserk-style setups in legacy that do ok, too) I think this is an attempt to make MILL competetive...not as an alternate win/con (similar to old renditions of The Deck) but as a primary route to victory. I think that it combos with Jace 3.0 nicely in standard. Two activations of ability #2 and you have Ancestral Recall at instant speed. Nice.

[swoop]

too bad it doesn't say target player draws...

[Cire]

Phantasmal image is legacy playable. It's a 2 mana clone. Emrakul/Emmy killer. A bit narrow though. But there has to be some way to break this card.

It seems really good in the new illusion deck!! :laugh:

But in all seriousness it is a 2 mana clone, that alone seems great. BUt it's even funnier it you start playing hexproofed creature and copy those.... or you play this in Faries and copy Scion. Or play it in an allies deck and then you have 8 1U clone creatures.... or Slivers and have 12 muscel slivers.... another lord for merfolk that can have an upwards of, what, 16?, 20? lords.

But in seriousness seriousness; what creature targeting spell that is widely played isn't removal? Pump spells from beserk stompy? Burn in case you copy a creature with thoughness > 3

[Glorfindel]

But in seriousness seriousness; what creature targeting spell that is widely played isn't removal? Pump spells from beserk stompy? Burn in case you copy a creature with thoughness > 3
Don't forget that Phantasmal Image is also allergic to cards like Grim Lavamancer and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[rufus]

I'm thinking storm: Visions of Beyond seems like it could work well in Pyromancer Ascension or Solidarity using stuff like Tolarian Winds and False Memories. It also seems like a pretty plausible choice for decks using Ad Nauseam.


But in seriousness seriousness; what creature targeting spell that is widely played isn't removal? Pump spells from beserk stompy? Burn in case you copy a creature with thoughness > 3
Not sure about 'widely played' but soft removal like Maze of Ith does see play.

[Arsenal]

I play AnT and getting my yard to 20+ cards is a pretty rare occurance. It does happens, but not enough that I can reliably count on my yard being 20+ cards at all times in order to have Visions of Beyond turned on.

[Tombstalker]

Visions of Beyond seems to work very well with SFM + SoBaM. I could see a U/W stonestill deck. Swing twice and start casting Ancestral Recalls...

[Gambit]

The DRAW 1 will likely not end up seeing play.
More than anything, this set seems geared toward EDH players. :\

[Fossil4182]

Visions of Beyond seems too conditional to be good. I think it would get a serious look if the card count was 15 or lower given how fast some of the older Threshold decks could load up their graveyard. However, getting 1/3 of a deck into the graveyard seems like too much work even if it would draw you three cards. Dredge would probably rather play Burning Inquiry since costs the same, it always draws three cards, and it puts cards back into the graveyard which is really helpful. Not to mention it can also wreck an opponent's hand.

Phantasmal Image seems like the best card in the set for Legacy thus far. It seems useful in most Merfolk builds and most Blue aggro control decks.

[Tombstalker]

People have been discussing Visions of beyond maindeck, but what about in the board vs. decks like dredge? Seems worth considering for a couple slots depending on your local meta of course..

[Nonex]

I'd still prefer Dream Salvage when it comes to anti-Dredge Recalls.

[Dan Turner]

I wonder how visions of beyond would be in Solidarity. At worst it is a +1 to storm count and a draw. There are plenty of times combining out I have hit 20+ cards in the graveyard. It allows you to dig just that much further for the kill.

I think it would be like setting someone on fire then stabbing them with a fork. May not do much but irritate them more if you are already 20 cards into a combo.

[conboy31]

People have been discussing Visions of beyond maindeck, but what about in the board vs. decks like dredge? Seems worth considering for a couple slots depending on your local meta of course..

If dredge has 20+ cards in their graveyard the correct response is not to draw 3 cards from your sb card. Instead, exile their 20+ graveyard with your sideboard card.

[Amon Amarth]

Seriously, this set keeps getting more and more awesome.

Solemn Simulacrum. No joke.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22214_Innovations_Exclusive_M12_Preview_Solemn_Simulacrum.html

I'm in love with this card so much I may end up playing Standard again. I like the new art far more than sad Jens.

[boneclub24]

I preferred the other, TBH.

[Infinitium]

Personal Sanctuary 2W
Enchantment Rare
During your turn, prevent all damage that would be dealt to you.

Is this abusable somehow? The fact that costs that involves life cannot be paid leads me to believe no, but you never know.

[Kich867]

Is this abusable somehow? The fact that costs that involves life cannot be paid leads me to believe no, but you never know.

?

You can pay those. It says prevent damage, not loss of life. Damage is a thing that can cause loss of life, not the other way around.

For instance, if you had a creature with pro-black and that enchantment out, you could spam Pestilence to your heart's desire and you wouldn't get hit by it. You could also do things like pay Moltensteel Dragon phyrexian life.

You'll still lose the life mind you, since life loss isn't damage and isn't prevented by that.

[Arsenal]

Looks like they're incorporating classic spells in fatty bodies (there's that fatty black creature with a CiPT Demonic Tutor, fatty blue creature with a CiPT Fact or Fiction). This set looks like an EDH player's wet dream... still have yet to see anything competitive for Legacy though.

[Sims]

Looks like they're incorporating classic spells in fatty bodies (there's that fatty black creature with a CiPT Demonic Tutor, fatty blue creature with a CiPT Fact or Fiction). This set looks like an EDH player's wet dream... still have yet to see anything competitive for Legacy though.

My Kaalia deck just started smiling at the Demonic Tutor Demon... Here's to hoping the Dragon and Angel versions have powerful enough effects to warrant spots.

Solemn, the fatty cycle, Titans, manalith, new boots, colorless academy ruins... EDH players REJOICE!

[boneclub24]

Solemn, the fatty cycle, Titans, manalith, new boots, colorless academy ruins... EDH players REJOICE!

/rejoices. My Animar deck will luuuuurv that sphinx.

[iostream]

still have yet to see anything competitive for Legacy though.
In my opinion, Buried Ruin is a better Academy Ruins for 43 Lands.

[Antonius]

In my opinion, Buried Ruin is a better Academy Ruins for 43 Lands.

I would challenge that belief, ser.

[GGoober]

In my opinion, Buried Ruin is a better Academy Ruins for 43 Lands.

Good observation, and I am inclined to agree. On paper, in Lands.dec, assuming you have active Manabonds/Exploration/Loams, saccing the land to actually put the artifact in your hand is more crucial to putting on top of your library when you are constantly dredging.

More interestingly, non-blue land builds that wish to recur EE are now possible without the need to play blue for Intuition/Academy Ruins (although Intuition is the main reason you play blue, not Aruins).

[Koby]

Metalwalker makes a good point regarding the immediacy of the new land. I would rather trade a land-drop to be able to get the card (we could say that about 90% of the time, this card will be EE) rather than skip a draw/dredge step.

To me, this makes the card more appealing.

[boneclub24]

Metalwalker makes a good point regarding the immediacy of the new land. I would rather trade a land-drop to be able to get the card (we could say that about 90% of the time, this card will be EE) rather than skip a draw/dredge step.

To me, this makes the card more appealing.

Why not run both?

[dahcmai]

Personal Sanctuary is one I am going to brainstorm a little with. That has got to have some uses. Even if it's as dumb as playing stuff like Flame Rift to make it one sided. Pestilence is amusing, but overly expensive really.


Not getting your butt kicked by things like Flesh Reaver or junk like that is probably an option.

Surely, there's plenty more.

[Barook]

Personal Sanctuary is one I am going to brainstorm a little with. That has got to have some uses. Even if it's as dumb as playing stuff like Flame Rift to make it one sided. Pestilence is amusing, but overly expensive really.


Not getting your butt kicked by things like Flesh Reaver or junk like that is probably an option.

Surely, there's plenty more.
Volcano Hellion comes into mind. But that interaction isn't that good, either.

[Ecoris]

When Volcano Hellion comes into play, it deals an amount of damage of your choice to you and target creature. The damage can't be prevented.

It doesn't work.

[iostream]

Good observation, and I am inclined to agree. On paper, in Lands.dec, assuming you have active Manabonds/Exploration/Loams, saccing the land to actually put the artifact in your hand is more crucial to putting on top of your library when you are constantly dredging.

More interestingly, non-blue land builds that wish to recur EE are now possible without the need to play blue for Intuition/Academy Ruins (although Intuition is the main reason you play blue, not Aruins).
Well, Tolaria West is pretty hard to replace, but lightening the blue requirement is definitely a plus for non-Intution lists.

[Tacosnape]

Somehow I keep wondering if there's a U/B Control Shell for Vengeful Pharaoh with Careful Study, Predict, Zombie Infestation, Squee, and other janktacular stuff. I mean, how great would it be to have a Knight of the Reliquary and a Tarmogoyf coming at your lone Zombie Infestation, pitch Squee and Pharaoh to make a Zombie, chump the Goyf, Pharaoh kill the Knight, untap, get Squee back, Predict for Pharaoh, draw two, draw normal, and have more Zombie chow?

Danger of Cool Things galore, but in Limited or maybe Standard, getting Pharaoh with Zombie Infestation will be a sexy trick.

[Aggro_zombies]

Somehow I keep wondering if there's a U/B Control Shell for Vengeful Pharaoh with Careful Study, Predict, Zombie Infestation, Squee, and other janktacular stuff. I mean, how great would it be to have a Knight of the Reliquary and a Tarmogoyf coming at your lone Zombie Infestation, pitch Squee and Pharaoh to make a Zombie, chump the Goyf, Pharaoh kill the Knight, untap, get Squee back, Predict for Pharaoh, draw two, draw normal, and have more Zombie chow?
This would involve letting the Knight hit you, which is probably more painful than Goyf. Pharaoh only triggers on damage being dealt.

[SpikeyMikey]

Good observation, and I am inclined to agree. On paper, in Lands.dec, assuming you have active Manabonds/Exploration/Loams, saccing the land to actually put the artifact in your hand is more crucial to putting on top of your library when you are constantly dredging.

More interestingly, non-blue land builds that wish to recur EE are now possible without the need to play blue for Intuition/Academy Ruins (although Intuition is the main reason you play blue, not Aruins).

Very good observation indeed. I just scanned it and filed it as a 1 shot Ruins but the "to hand" is huge. Excellent call.

[TheCramp]

Man, FoF sphinx and Demonic Tutor Demon are boss. (EDH) looks like a broken uncommon on a fatty cycle. I wonder what the other cards will be. Here is for hoping that the green one is a fat eternal witness. "5GG 7/7 trample, regrowth." I'd rock that. What could be the red and white ones? I can't think of iconic white and red spells at uncommon you would feel happy with on a 7 drop. (they may not all be 7s.)

[DrHealex]

What could be the red and white ones? I can't think of iconic white and red spells at uncommon you would feel happy with on a 7 drop. (they may not all be 7s.)
That's easy. Final Fortune/Wheel of Fortune for Red and Balance/Armageddon for White :laugh:

[ktkenshinx]

I don't even know what quite to say about this one:

Sundial of the Infinite (2)
Artifact
(1){T}: End the turn. Activate this ability only during your turn. (Exile all spells and abilities on the stack. Discard down to your maximum hand size. Damage wears off, and "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end)

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ftl/yfghiuikjfdsjkfhsukjfhswssss.jpg

(As if to respond to the obligatory Legacy Stax comment ("ZOMG ARTIFACT GOOD IN STAX!!!", the author of the article even addresses its synergy in Stax with Tangle Wire/Smokestack.)
What does this card actually do?
-Ruins Hive Mind players' day
-Prevents opponents from casting anything during your end of turn (you activate Sundial in response and remove their spells from the stack)
-Stops any defensive combat tricks your opponent uses
-Makes Smokestack really asymmetrical
-Allows you to not pay for cumulative upkeep costs (not 100% sure on this)

Plus Chandra. Babe in Standard. Unplayable here.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/rtyyfghjkfsiodjfgsiyujfhjioljkwer.jpg

[Koby]

Seems like a cute ability in Stax - its really Win-More rather than good in such a deck.

[Shawon]

Do they really have to have the ping abilities be so weak (points to Chandra Nalaar and Sorin Markov), especially since they're sorcery speed? Would Chandra the Firebrand have been broken if it ping'd 2 damage per turn instead of one?

[Zlatzman]

Sundial of the Infinite is probably a good replacement for Torpor Orb in decks that run it. It limits you to one creature a turn, and it costs one man per creature, but in return you get more utility out of the card.

[Nihil Credo]

Sundial of the Infinite is a brilliant card, I love the design. I can't think of much that makes it good right now. Stax and other upkeep-trigger uses are pretty corner cases (you don't want to skip your whole turn unless you're ready for a hard lock & mill). If one such deck manages to include decent tutoring, you could try and play it as a 1-of just because it gives you a completely creatureless kill. Then again, like a Mindslaver lock, it's going to give you a fair bit of draws in Game 2/3 (although it's slightly faster to execute).

- Good stuff that has lethal / annoying 187 triggers

This category was already supported by Stifle/Trickbind, with Phyrexian Dreadnought as the gold standard. I don't think Sundial can do more than that, at a quick search Gilded Drake is the only dude with a "can't be countered" clause.

- Stuff that has shit happen at EOT

The limiting factor here is that the card must say "at the end of your turn", otherwise shit will still happen on your opponent's turn. There are 40 cards like that. The biggest potential is in cards like Psychic Vortex and Grafted Skullcap. Bleagh.

- Stuff that has bad shit happen repeatedly

Things like "whenever you draw a card / play a land / attack, do [bad shit]". Can't think of anything *that* interesting, though.

I'm afraid it will join the ranks of really long-shot sleeper cards hoping for a Grindstone stroke of luck.

EDIT: Or maybe not! See a few posts down.

[Tacosnape]

Sundial of the Infinite is a fantastic card from a design perspective. Solves the Hive Mind problem and makes a trick exist that didn't really exist before. It obviously stops Hive Mind cold. Other things it's neat with or against:

1. Phyrexian Dreadnought. Dreadnought now has 12 colorless ways to get into play. Also see Hunted Horror and Eater of Days.

2. Fetches, Brainstorms, Aether Vials, or anything else often activated on your turn.

3. Final Fortune / Last Chance / Warrior's Oath. Given that the wording is specific for killing you on the extra turn, this'll turn it into a Timewalk. Also, I had no idea there were three versions of this card.

4. Voyager Staff, Skirk Alarmist, and Apprentice Necromancer.

[Tacosnape]

Sundial of the Infinite is a fantastic card from a design perspective. Solves the Hive Mind problem and makes a trick exist that didn't really exist before. It obviously stops Hive Mind cold. Other things it's neat with or against:

1. Phyrexian Dreadnought. Dreadnought now has 12 colorless ways to get into play. Also see Hunted Horror and Eater of Days.

2. Fetches, Brainstorms, Aether Vials, or anything else often activated on your turn.

3. Final Fortune / Last Chance / Warrior's Oath. Given that the wording is specific for killing you on the extra turn, this'll turn it into a Timewalk. Also, I had no idea there were three versions of this card.

4. Voyager Staff, Skirk Alarmist, and Apprentice Necromancer.

[Lemnear]

Sundial of the Infinite is great! It is a nightmare for those End Of Turn shenanigans like Brainstorm, Top, Fact or Fiction, Naturalize-Effects, creature-removal and more.

It reads: 1, tap: counter target spell or ability.

So you trade the rest of your turn for an opponents spell ... seems fair to me

[Shawon]

I'm glad to see the return of "End the turn" effects. I love Time Stop.

Question: Does Sundial stop Final Fortune from killing you?


- Stuff that has bad shit happen repeatedly

Things like "whenever you draw a card / play a land / attack, do [bad shit]". Can't think of anything *that* interesting, though.

I'm afraid it will join the ranks of really long-shot sleeper cards hoping for a Grindstone stroke of luck.

You can use Sundial when you're decked out to stop losing, but using Sundial for that purpose seems unnecessary and I can't think of scenarios where you want to zero your library and still have turns after that, decks like Doomsday and Breakfast tend to kill right away. Perhaps there's a Doomsday pile that can use Sundial?

[Nihil Credo]

Well, Sundial's chances have just gone way up:


603.7b. A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once--the next time its trigger event occurs--unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn."

Meaning that you can use it to permanently block stuff that says "at the beginning of the next end step", and there's a fair more of that (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22at%20the%20beginning%20of%20the%20next%20end%20step%22&v=card&s=cname). Unearth dudes, Flicker effects including Astral Slide (!), Shallow Grave effects, Ball Lightning and clones, Mimic Vat, and so on.

[Kich867]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the event you landed an Isochron's Scepter with Final Chance on it, and a Sundial in play, you could take an extra turn > next turn you pop FC again > end of turn loss triggers > sundial to remove it > infinite turns?


Well, Sundial's chances have just gone way up:



Meaning that you can use it to permanently block stuff that says "at the beginning of the next end step", and there's a fair more of that (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22at%20the%20beginning%20of%20the%20next%20end%20step%22&v=card&s=cname). Unearth dudes, Flicker effects including Astral Slide (!), Shallow Grave effects, Ball Lightning and clones, Mimic Vat, and so on.

O_O;; -- So Astral Slide + Sundial = 2 mana: exile target creature?

[Darkenslight]

Sundial is going to be banned somewhere. Count on it. :D

[Ecoris]

Just brainstorming:
Ideas Unbound
Psychic Vortex

Infinite turns with Sceptre + Final Fortune is better.

[Barook]

So Astral Slide + Sundial = 2 mana: exile target creature?
Actually, you can remove any number of creatures and then "kill" them with Sundial.

It looks like a great card. Now we just have to find the best way to break it.

[bruizar]

.

[bruizar]

It all depends on whether or not this card can be good enough on its own. Scepter / Chant 'wins' but isn't played, Ancient Grudge / Liquimetal Coating-Gorilla Shaman very powerful but even in vintage where there's always a couple of moxen to eat it's not played.

Sundial will not be a good card because people will simply use their removal in on their own turn. This makes Sundial incapable of doing anything relevant UNLESS you play a card that enables this thing to do broken stuff.

Also, Astral Slide, Sundial is a 3 card combo as you also need to invest in cyclers.

It looks good on paper, but it's a trap.



I do actually like Chandra Firebrand's second ability. It works especially well with removal and burn (STP/Ancient Grudge/Lightning Bolt/Thoughtseize/Fireblast) but I'm sure there's something far stronger. Too bad Chandra can't protect itself.

[pcccp]

Sundial makes me crazy. I would love to brew a funky new deck with this. All the Parallax enchantments from Nemesis work. Removing all lands mit Parallax Tide or 5 handcards with Parallax Nexus is really cool. Other cards i would consider:

- Solitary Confinement
- Flickerwisp / Glimmer Stag
- Glacial Chasm

[pcccp]

I think creatures with evoke would work well. Evoke Shriekmaw second mainphase and because you control the trigger you can let the "terror" resolve and then end the turn in response to the sacrifice trigger.

[Gui]

I like how the new chandra fits a Red Stax-like deck as kill-con and creature-dealer alongside Ensnaring Bridge, and how Red Stax now has a draw spell... Damn, can someone craft a decent Red Stax already?

[Nihil Credo]

and how Red Stax now has a draw spell...
Did I miss a memo?

[Gui]

Did I miss a memo?

Sorry. Tezzeret's Gambit. Which is fancy with the second ability too (draw 4, proliferate 2x, chandra goes intact). ^^

Edit: I just realized you can ploriferate a CotV to 2, and a Stax to a first turn 1 oO

[Sims]

Sorry. Tezzeret's Gambit. Which is fancy with the second ability too (draw 4, proliferate 2x, chandra goes intact). ^^

Edit: I just realized you can ploriferate a CotV to 2, and a Stax to a first turn 1 oO

Gambit only proliferates once, unless I'm reading it wrong. But yes, in a pinch you can cast it and proliferate your Stax from 1 to 2, or your chalice from 1-2, to speed up your lock. Note that due to proliferate needing a counter on the permanent already, you cannot proliferate from 0-1.

[Gui]

Gambit only proliferates once, unless I'm reading it wrong. But yes, in a pinch you can cast it and proliferate your Stax from 1 to 2, or your chalice from 1-2, to speed up your lock. Note that due to proliferate needing a counter on the permanent already, you cannot proliferate from 0-1.

Yup, stax to 1 was wrong, sorry.

But you can copy Gambit with Chandra's second ability, using the proliferate twice. That's what I meant

[TheCramp]

If you copy GSZ X=4 with new Chandra, is the copy's X 0 or 4? I think it's 4, but I could be mistaken.

[Justin]

It is a 4. X for the copy will be whatever X was for the first spell.

[Sims]

Yup, stax to 1 was wrong, sorry.

But you can copy Gambit with Chandra's second ability, using the proliferate twice. That's what I meant

True enough. She does have potential, and as someone who loved playing stax and mud i do hope we can make something viable at some point. I'm not sure she's the planeswalker to do it, but her casting cost is at least a step in the right direction.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

True enough. She does have potential, and as someone who loved playing stax and mud i do hope we can make something viable at some point. I'm not sure she's the planeswalker to do it, but her casting cost is at least a step in the right direction.

But stax is mostly permanents, so shes just a 4 mana pinger. The synergy with gambit is nice but not game breaking. Draw 4 for :3:(P)... hmmmm

[swoop]

smallpox is in

[The Big Ragu]

The satchel is cute. I can't think of any way for it to be amazing, but I like it.

[Heresy]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120779&d=1309492928http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120783&d=1309493236
EDIT :
Grand Abolisher
Hoses blue and combat trick, I like it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I think Garruk is unplayable in Legacy 5 mana and 3 of them = GGG in the mana cost is too much to be any playable.

Angelic Destiny looks kinda cute in a Hatebear-Stompy or Angel-Stompyish deck, the problem I see with it is that creatures don't die in Legacy. They go Exile. Would be nice if Angelic Destiny had Rancor wording like "When Angelic Destiny is put into a graveyard from the battlefield", but with the actual wording, I don't think its playable =(

Nevertheless, I think Elspeth does the job better in these kinda decks.


We also got this thing from Starcity, which seems kinda good:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_M12/EvQYfM4UcyeWQVD59v57.jpg

Grand Abolisher WW
Creature - Human Cleric /// Rare
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or activate abilities of artifacts, creatures or enchantments.
2/2

[boneclub24]

Hmm... hatebear for the already-dying Countertop?

[Mirrislegend]

"_____ and Taxes" just went through the roof with that guy. No countermagic, no Vial or SFM for blockers or haste, no removal during combat. This is the stones.

[4eak]

I like Grand Abolisher a lot. It is a fairly unique and powerful effect at a low cost. By powerful, I'm not necessarily saying it is going to be worth using (although, I'll certainly be testing it in several WW and GW variants), but being able to largely blank your opponent's ability to interact with you on your own turn is impressive.



peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So random that it doesn't hit lands. Still, it's interesting. Seems like it would have a lot of niche applications, and hey, Solidarity might be a relevant deck again at some point in the future.

[workingdude]

So random that it doesn't hit lands.

Are you talking about a situation where the ability affects lands having a clause that says, except mana abilities? If not, I think that would be absolutely insane.

[paladin3056]

Grand Abolisher is very strong, and this is most likely the MUST kill of all creatures. Being able to stop counters, vial activations on your turn, removal on your turn, and many more. I wonder of you could make a deck with this and Scepter chant to stop your opponent from casting anything except maybe in response to your Orim's Chant.

[dahcmai]

Grand Abolisher is finally a card I actually want from this set. Granted, I'll take the two planeswalkers for standard, but this guy I want for Legacy. Vial in that guy and you can have a ball. It's almost worth building Berzerk Stompy variants over that guy, though he's going to so die the instant he hits the table. Kind of cool how you can play him and have an attack phase where the opponent has to watch you hit them with no interference.

[ivanpei]

Abolisher's double white will make it less playable though it will be a solid card in equipment decks that can run it. Much better than leonin arbiter. Having said that, these decks are soft to combo so they want bear that fight combo. Revoker and canonist are competing with it for the "annoying bear" slot.

Holy crap garruk is good. Like legacy playable good. Green finally gets card draw that's powerful. A g/b/w rock with garruk, bob and lots of ramp might be playable. With a goyf/ kotr in play, he draws 4-6 cards, basically putting you infinitely ahead. It can defend itself while + ing and the ultimate is game over. This walker is borderline good enough for legacy. If there is any legacy playable 5cc walker, this is it. I'll try 2 of this in my rock deck instead of elspeth. I'm pretty sure this is better.

[bruizar]

Play Elspeth, make soldier
Next turn, play Garruk, make beast and soldier
Next turn, pump beast, attack for 6, draw 6 cards

oh yeh

[Darkenslight]

Hell, with the new Garruk, you could probably play G/W Rock, With Abolisher, hatebears and Elspeth. That seems like a plan...

[Birkardo]

Or some kind of Mono W Aggro Stax:

15 x Plains
4 x Flagstones
4 x Wasteland

4 x Leonic Arbiter
4 x Grand Abolisher
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
3 x Cannonist
3 x Magus of the Tabernacle

4 x Armageddon
4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Chalice Of the Void
3 x Crucible of Worlds
2 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 x Oblivion Ring

[bruizar]

I don´t see Abolisher do anything at all. People can just play around it until they can remove it. Yet another trap. I´d rather have a goyf body for that kind of mana.

[Hopo]

I don´t see Abolisher do anything at all. People can just play around it until they can remove it. Yet another trap. I´d rather have a goyf body for that kind of mana.

How about giving you the complete domination of the attack phase in this combat oriented format? Not good enough for you?