[Discussion] Do you think Modern Magic threatens the viability of Legacy or Extended?

[Clark Kant]

The format became official a month ago and I am interested to hear you thoughts on how it will impact Legacy and Extended in the long term..

The very same things that always appealed to me about Legacy (nonrotating, enormous card pool, not absurdly expensive to get started in), appeal to me about Modern. I am sure that is true for many sourcers.

Modern is extremely similar to Extended in terms of the speed and power level of it's cardpool, and viable strategies. I really don't see how or why both Extended and Modern can or should coexist when there is so much overlap.


Wizards has announced a new format for the MTGO Community Cup:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05192011d

Only cards with the Modern frame and a banned list. Looks pretty similar to Extendacy, but with few sets:
8th
9th
10th
M2010
M2011
Mirrodin Block
Kamigawa Block
Ravnica Block
Coldsnap
Time Spiral Block
Lorwyn Block
Shadowmoor Block
Shards of Alara Block
Zendikar Block
Scars of Mirrodin Block

Banned list:
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Great Furnace
Tree of Tales
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Umezawa's Jitte
Golgari Grave-Troll


Perhaps wizards are testing this new Eternal format?
Without non-reprint cards
Without expensive old sets cards
Without storm combo :cry:



Magic needs one nonrotating format that is relatively inexpensive to get into, for the sake of newer budget minded players that neither want to invest in duals, nor want to constantly have to buy into new cards. There was a time when Legacy used to meet this important need (back when you could ebay a playset of duals for $40), but it no longer does. However, Modern fills this niche.

I also think Wizards can't really support five different formats (Draft, Standard, Extended, Modern and Legacy), something has to give, and I really hope it's Extended. I would be really saddened if Wizards scales back it's support for Legacy for the sake of Modern. Without Wizards support, Legacy could wind up like Vintage, largely ignored.

Legacy absolutely should not be ignored by Wizards. The old framed cards have a rich history, being able to play with Alpha and Beta cards (even if not the broken ones) in a popular format is important. However, I don't think many people would mind if Extended is largely displaced by Modern as the card pools and deck strategies are very similar. Quite a few people would probably appreciate Extended being displaced by a version of Extended that doesn't rotate out.

So for the success of Legacy, and Modern, I really hope that Wizards phases out support for Extended, and replaces that support with Modern.

Wizards would thus be supporting two rotating formats (Standard and Draft) and two nonrotating formats (Legacy and Modern), and this seems optimal to me.

The one other issue that I want to bring up is the ban list. Modern doesn't need a ban list.

The entire modern ban list is designed to hose out Affinity and artifact based combos. But there is a far superior way to do hose than strategies out than banning them. Simply reprint Energy Flux, Serenity, Null Rod, make a version of Energy Flux for White, Red and Green and allow the format to autocorrect itself. Affinity and all those combos would disappear over night.

And it's absurd that Grave-Troll is banned. As I'm the Brainwasher pointed out, "all playable Dredge enablers (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, LED, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Cabal Therapy; even Brainstorm and Hapless Researcher) are NOT legal and Crypt, Extirpate/Extraction, Relic, Leyline are. What are they afraid of?"

And as Mr. Safety pointed out ". I DO have issues with the banned list though. Jitte? Sword of the Meek? We're talking about a format WITHOUT Enlightened Tutor? Chrome Mox doesn't even pass the straight face test for banning, it's just not that powerful."

I think having an eternal format without a banned list could be awesome, and Modern could be just that.

That's why I am glad they decided to make the cut off at 8th Edition rather than at MM block. Allowing MM block onwards would have neccesitated the banning of Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, storm cards etc. Modern on the other hand absolutely does not need a banned list (maybe a few more affinity hosers like Energy Flux and Null Rod in the format but that's all it needs).

What are your thoughts on this?

[Tiago_B.]

Why dont they include Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques blocks? seems dumb to me, since none of those blocks had a huge mechanic that might disrupt the format.

I dont really think it presents much of a threat to Legacy. If it had a bigger card poll, that might be different, and Legacy has increased its popularity lately. But we'll see.

At least this might cause the card prices to drop :tongue:

EDIT: Extended sucks really bad. I dont think i know anyone who plays in that format around here. So it wouldnt be much of a loss, as long as im corcerned.

[Clark Kant]

I think the format could potentially threaten Wizards support of legacy. Basically, I just don't think it would be possible for Wizards to support Draft, Standard, Extended, Modern and Legacy all at once.

If they try to support all five, I think both Extended and Legacy will wind up with far fewer sanctioned events. So I hope that Wizards just phases away Extended complely since it so similar to Modern in terms of card speed, viable strategies and card pool, and continues to hold a reasonable number of legacy sanctioned tournaments to make sure that even Alpha and Beta cards are never forgotten.

I really love the idea of just making the cards with the newer borders legal though. It's a very quick way to determine which cards are legal in the format and which aren't and to ensure that your opponent is playing you with a legal deck.

Few people can differentiate between Onslaught's cards and other older cards with the old frames. Do you know all the card symbols for Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques. I certainly don't and I've been playing for quite some time. By making it just the newer frames, it makes it very easy to know whether the deck your opponent is using is legal or not.

5-6 years ago, legacy was the go to format for budget minded players that neither want to invest in $50 cards, nor want to constantly have to buy into new cards. This was back when you could ebay a playset of duals for $40, but this is no longer the case. I think that's the reason why Modern exists, to fill this niche.

[John Cox]

I think this makes a lot of sense as new non rotating format, people had an idea for "overextended" or whatever you want to call it -masques forward. the problem with that is there are alot of broken decks you can make with that pool. Think about dredge, dark ritual and burn decks getting boosts from masques block.

[LostButSeeking]

Why dont they include Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques blocks? seems dumb to me, since none of those blocks had a huge mechanic that might disrupt the format.

I don't see it as a mechanic issue so much as a convenience thing. There are an awful lot of questionable cards in those blocks--dark ritual, brainstorm, fact or fiction, goblin ringleader and piledriver etc.--that might start the format in places the designers don't want it to be (I mean, faeries with brainstorm?). IMO, it's probably easier just to axe those three blocks and wash your hands, jobs done. Not to mention the fact that the modern card border does give everything a nice, consistent look to it.

[Fossil4182]

Why dont they include Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques blocks? seems dumb to me, since none of those blocks had a huge mechanic that might disrupt the format.

Except for that Storm mechanic... They would have to ban Mind's Desire and Tendrils would merit a lot of discussion since having a format where Tendrils is Legal and Force of Will is not could be really problematic.

If WotC really pushed Modern it would most hurt Legacy because this prompt wrongfully assumes Extended is a popular format now and/or has a following. There is "Extended Season" but they call it that because there are a few high level events that people will play in. Other than those events, no one really pushes the format so its not like there really is a lot to compete with.

It would be hard to argue that SCG is not largely responsible for the rise of Legacy. Given how players and shops react to formats like Extended or Block (even if WotC "pushes" the formats), its fairly easy to argue that SCG would likely dictate the success of Modern depending on if they decided to support it. I'm not saying this is the only method for the format to succeed, but given the rise of Legacy, its a good starting point/template to follow.

If SCG pushes Modern in competition with or over Legacy, then it becomes a very real threat to Legacy in terms of popularity and support. I could see them reworking the schedule to make participation in Modern viable, but I think it would have to compete with Legacy. The upside for SCG pushing Modern is that a lot of cards suddenly become profitable to sell and there is sufficient quantity out there to keep scarcity from pricing most players out of the format. Modern would likely attract new players easier given the lower cost of entry and that if the player has been playing for a few years, some of their older cards will likely be competitive.

Looking at this logistically from their current Open weekends the only options would be to run it on Friday or Sunday since they won't want to draw away from their Standard crowd on Saturday.

Friday night seems implausible since most people who work don't get off until 5:00 PM meaning they would likely start at 6:00 PM which would not give them sufficient time to run a full tournament since it would conflict with running Standard on Saturday morning. Additionally, it would compete with the FNM crowd.

Sunday is "possible", but even if they just added Modern to the Sunday schedule, they would be running the Draft Opens, Legacy and Modern all on the same day which logistically could be a challenge in addition to having to Eternal formats running concurrently which is potentially bad for business. It could be bad for business since a lot of players in Legacy likely have a lot of the format staples for Modern meaning if possible, they could get a traditional Legacy player to compete in both events. Alternatively, they could start Modern in the early afternoon on Saturday for all of the players who dropped out of the Standard event, but again, it would compete with the Legacy pool for Sunday morning.

There just isn't room in their current schedule to host Modern, so if they do decide to host it, it will have to compete with something and its most likely going to be Legacy.

[ktkenshinx]

There are a few issues here at stake. One of them is the choice of the Modern cutoff at Mirrodin and 8th. The other is the idea of an alternate cutoff at, say, Masques block. The final one is the issue of Legacy's ability to survive these changing times.



I really love the idea of just making the cards with the newer borders legal though. It's a very quick way to determine which cards are legal in the format and which aren't and to ensure that your opponent is playing you with a legal deck.

Few people can differentiate between Onslaught's cards and other older cards with the old frames. Do you know all the card symbols for Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques. I certainly don't and I've been playing for quite some time. By making it just the newer frames, it makes it very easy to know whether the deck your opponent is using is legal or not.
This is something that I fervently disagree with, and something that I have tirelessly argued against for weeks now. Modern card frames do not make a good starting point because they do not accomplish what Wizards wants them to. Experienced players in the internet age of Magic do not need some silly visual aid to help them figure out what cards are legal. Tournament organizers and players are more than capable of looking this information up, memorizing it, learning it, researching it, etc. It has certainly never stopped Legacy players from learning complicated banlists (the same goes for Vintage players). A player who is smart enough to play complex deck strategies in the modern, wired world is more than capable of also knowing what sets are legal; no visual help is needed.

The second problem with the modern card frame argument is that it doesn't even help the players that it is intended to help. New players might need a little help in a new format, but the visual markers of modern frames are just going to confuse them. Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, Dark Ritual, Pernicious Deed, Daze, Wild Mongrel, etc. These are all cards that have modern card frames but are also not legal in Modern. There are tons of these cards, whether the new cards in Commander, reprints in Duel Decks, or promo cards from past FNMs updated in modern frames. All of these cards reprinted and promotional are not legal in Modern, but the visual aid of the frames provides a dangerous false positive. This only serves to confuse new players, not help them. Thus, the modern frame argument fails on both levels that it is supposed to help. This really renders the Modern mirrodin/8th cutoff completely unjustifiable.


Why dont they include Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques blocks? seems dumb to me, since none of those blocks had a huge mechanic that might disrupt the format.

I dont really think it presents much of a threat to Legacy. If it had a bigger card poll, that might be different, and Legacy has increased its popularity lately. But we'll see.

At least this might cause the card prices to drop :tongue:

EDIT: Extended sucks really bad. I dont think i know anyone who plays in that format around here. So it wouldnt be much of a loss, as long as im corcerned.

I think this makes a lot of sense as new non rotating format, people had an idea for "overextended" or whatever you want to call it -masques forward. the problem with that is there are alot of broken decks you can make with that pool. Think about dredge, dark ritual and burn decks getting boosts from masques block.
This is the fundamental flaw of Modern. By excluding these blocks, Modern is basically a shell of what it could potentially be, and a less healthy format as a result. All of those older sets have a lot to offer to a new eternal format, and Modern excludes those cards for an arbitrary reason. Not only are decks lost that are otherwise potentially viable in a new metagame (Astral Slide, Second Sunrise, Madness, Goblins, Tendrils-based Storm, Reanimator, Domain, etc.), but many staples are also lost alongside of them that can fit into lots of decks (Onslaught fetchlands for example). A new eternal format needs to be as healthy and diverse as possible, and more cards can help ensure that.

Of course, there are some offenders. Dark Ritual would almost assuredly need to get the banhammer, as would perhaps Brainstorm as it has been cut down in Vintage. But other than that, testing would be the final arbiter in a card's banning. Certainly, the MTGO and online based Overextended format (http://mtgoverextended.com/) has been extremely healthy and diverse using cards from Invasion onwards. Why does that tournament scene not use Masques as the cutoff? MTGO players do not have access to Masques, which makes it a poor starting point for now.

But looking ahead to the future...
Masques is the most historically significant and appealing starting point for a new eternal format, and it is the cutoff point that will truly elevate the format to something important. There are a few reasons for this, one of them more important than the rest:

1. 6th Edition rules changes were implemented in Masques (after UD that is). These were huge changes (the stack anyone?) which still affect us to this day.
2. Masques was the end of Urza's design philosophy and the general philosophy of overpowered Magic cards. Modern card design began in Masques.
3. MASQUES REPRESENTS THE END OF THE RESERVE LIST

This last point is huge. Eternal formats have always been held back by the reserve list, and starting a new eternal format at the end of that list is a huge symbolic victory for eternal players everywhere. It marks the beginning of a new era of Eternal magic where reprints can and do exist, and where costs are generally lower (not low, just lower) than in older and reserve list-burdened formats. Wizards' "Modern" format does not have this historical significance, and in the years to come, it will not be able to justify its existence as well as Overextended could. A Masques cutoff (once available on MTGO, or even before) is a truly historic starting point.

So does this all threaten Legacy?

Yes and no. Yes, because it does not have the Reserve List problems, which means that it is slightly more accessible to players. But no because there is huge overlap between legacy staples and Overextended staples (Goyf, Confidant, Stoneforge, Depths, Fetchlands, Thoughtseize, etc.) While a lot of staples definitely are out, the two formats could easily co-exist, especially if Wizards eliminated Extended as a Pro Tour format.

In the end, Magic and Magic players are benefited by a new format. Modern does not live up to the task. its cutoff is arbitrary, its format is less diverse, and it cannot withstand the test of time. Overextended with a Masques cutoff, however, is more than capable of standing for the rest of Magic history as a symbol about how eternal formats SHOULD be played.

-ktkenshinx-

[ktkenshinx]

double posted

[dahcmai]

Too bad it's a temp format and most people already consider it that. I won't pay it any mind and I doubt I am alone in that thinking.

[I am the brainwasher]

In genereal I think that this is a very interesting and fun to play format, but I defintely see problems for Legacy and Vintage if the format establishes more and more (already saw an mediocre ammount of servers on MWS here and there).
Instead of creating another eternal-format with keeping extended, I would see it more likeley if they throw EXT completely in the bin and Modern replaces it so that these 3 eternal-Formats coexist harmonic (which isnt too unrealistic IMO, maybe they test out to replace an EXT event with it and see what it brings).
Most players are fed up with EXT, which is a horrible format right now and was messed up completely with the new rotation announcement not long ago. I could see players want to play it and I am fine with that but spamming the community with too much formats is very unhealthy in the long end. They need to test it out more and introduce it to the players and then decide wether to keep EXT or not.
Its great to give players the opportunity to play an eternal format without spending an incredible ammount of money (even if this will change to some point if the format stabilizes, logically) or taking a bit of a distance to Vintage and Legacy without giving up the benefits from eternal formats.
At first I got the impression that this is something like playing Legacy without playing Legacy (wtf?!?) but its indeed a nice format as more as I look at it. Right now I couldnt think of quitting Legacy-play and I thiunk its the best format by far, but I wouldnt mind to play Modern here and there. The formats pretty much open (pls stop all that Zoo, Faeries, Cloudpost & Merfolk everything else is unplayable blablabla) and gives great opportunities for deck-designers and players who got in touch with MtG not that long ago and I desperatly hope that they'll bin EXT and give it a shot.
Again, Legacy was and will ever be my fave, but if they do it right theres not that much of a harm to the alread existing eternal-formats.

PS:
I red the explanation of the todays bannings and I have to admit that the arguments and honesty they showed were surprisingly good and fair in any kind of sense. They explained how THEY made mistakes and told the thoughts and estimations of card creation in the last sets very honest and promising. After reading it I got the impression that they share a lot of the feelings/thoughts of the community as game-designers and I hope that this is followed by other correct and well thought decisions. If anyone from WotC reads that, this time you done it right, keep that up.

[Grollub]

@Thread title: Not at all.

Extended was widely popular when duals were legal, the instant they cycled them out (the real time, they kept them in when Revised went away for those who didn't knew) the format's popularity died out almost overnight. People like being able to play decks with solid manabases more than they want to play an extended Standard.

[nedleeds]

So modern doesn't ban Tarmogoyf? But bans Dark Depths ... hahahahaha.

[menace13]

Eternal just isn't the same when you account cut offs at certain sets, no true duals, no FoW, no LED etc.. All These formats should be called Not-really-Eternal-just-Non-Rotatable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Overextended is much more compelling than Modern. Due to different promos, the frame argument doesn't even make sense anyway.

Modern I would expect to fail, Overextended... well, I think it's inferior in Legacy in some ways, but it would also have a lot that's attractive. It's likely that there won't be much more of a push for it until/if Legacy enters a terminal supply spin, and that's probably years and years down the road. I suppose it could live as a niche format until then.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Overextended is much more compelling than Modern. Due to different promos, the frame argument doesn't even make sense anyway.

I think they are trying to draw a line that doesn't move...essentially making it into a quasi-eternal format. This makes sense as the easiest place to make the split. Mercadian Masques may make more sense, but 8th-forward is much more available in the secondary market than MM-forward.


Modern I would expect to fail, Overextended... well, I think it's inferior in Legacy in some ways, but it would also have a lot that's attractive. It's likely that there won't be much more of a push for it until/if Legacy enters a terminal supply spin, and that's probably years and years down the road. I suppose it could live as a niche format until then.

I respectfully disagree with you, I think Modern would be INCREDIBLY successful, for the very reason that's holding legacy back from being the top format: introductory investing. Most players (like myself) that are trying to get into legacy would have an easy time being competitive in Modern, where legacy restricts your deck choices if you are on a budget. Why invest in Force of Will to play legacy when I can just start slinging my (now more valuable!) Cryptic Commands in Modern?

I think if all goes through with Modern, I think support for legacy will drop like a rock, possibly even to the point where legacy turns into what Vintage is today. A lot of people want to play their hobby of magic more seriously, but they don't want to drop car-payment-sized chunks of money into them. I think there is a resurgance of older people getting into or back into magic (I'm 31, and I am noticing a lot of players in that age range that now have houses, kids, and other money-hungry responsibilities.) Once again, Modern appeals to this age group strongly.

A fringe result of lower interest in legacy is that prices of staples will most likely drop, too...because demand will drop. Speculation again, but possible.

I think the Mercadian Masques cut-off point instead of 8th/Mirrodin could work as well as noted above. I DO have issues with the banned list though. Jitte? Sword of the Meek? We're talking about a format WITHOUT Enlightened Tutor? Restricted maaaaaybe, but not banned. Chrome Mox doesn't even pass the straight face test for banning, it's just not that powerful. Golgari Grave-Troll is another big question mark...it's one of the more powerful drege enablers, sure...but there are so many decent graveyard hosers that it should be a non-issue. It's not like they have Ichorid or Entomb available.

Just some thoughts.

[I am the brainwasher]

"A lot of people want to play their hobby of magic more seriously, but they don't want to drop car-payment-sized chunks of money into them. I think there is a resurgance of older people getting into or back into magic(...)."

True, feel the same here, even if I am not 31:tongue:.

"Golgari Grave-Troll is another big question mark...it's one of the more powerful drege enablers, sure...but there are so many decent graveyard hosers that it should be a non-issue."

This is just awkward, all playable Dredge enablers (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, LED, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Cabal Therapy; even Brainstorm and Hapless Researcher) are NOT legal and Crypt, Extirpate/Extraction, Relic, Leyline are. What are they afraid of? Burning Inquiry+Zombie Infestation (M12 reprint)? lulz.

[Sims]

Modern will only be monetarily easily accessible to early adopters. Once the format starts taking off, if the format starts taking off, I would expect Zendikar fetchlands and Ravnica duals to go up higher than they are currently. $400ish for a set of Rav Duals may be about right now, but if the format becomes popular you could expect that to double fairly easily. The sets aren't in print anymore and they'd be integral in manabase stability. While there may not be the same supply problem as True Duals in Legacy, the lands alone will create a monetary barrier. You'll also probably want Jaces, Tarmogoyfs, Bob, Cliques, EE's, ... last I knew those weren't 5 dollar cards either.

And to anyone who says that carsd that become staple in Modern or OverE wouldn't jump in price, take a long hard look at standard and see what happens to cards there. If either format became popular, the hot cards would jump and the already expensive cards would probably rise slightly as well. It's not the budget alternative to Legacy that everyone claims it would be. it might be cheaper, yes, but it's still going to present a decent hurdle for anyone who doesn't already have sets of what will assuredly be the mostplayed cards.

[overseer1234]

First I was like cool I can resleeve my old dredge reanimate... Ohw wait, troll's banned

Okay, then maybe affinnity for old time's sake... Damn, also baned

Allright, big red FTW then.... Ohw God chrome mox is baned???????

I don't realy "get" the banned list. especially when they leave stoneforge mystic and jace the mindsculpter legal....

[Clark Kant]

The one other issue that I want to bring up is the ban list. Modern doesn't need a ban list as many others hinted at.

The entire Modern ban list is designed to hose out Affinity and artifact based combos. But there is a far superior way to do hose than strategies out than banning them. Simply reprint Energy Flux, Serenity, Null Rod, make a version of Energy Flux for White, Red and Green and allow the format to autocorrect itself. Affinity and all those combos would disappear over night.

And it's absurd that Grave-Troll is banned. As I'm the Brainwasher pointed out, "all playable Dredge enablers (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, LED, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Cabal Therapy; even Brainstorm and Hapless Researcher) are NOT legal and Crypt, Extirpate/Extraction, Relic, Leyline are. What are they afraid of?"

And as Mr. Safety pointed out ". I DO have issues with the banned list though. Jitte? Sword of the Meek? We're talking about a format WITHOUT Enlightened Tutor? Chrome Mox doesn't even pass the straight face test for banning, it's just not that powerful."

I think having an eternal format without a banned list could be awesome, and Modern could be just that.

That's why I am glad they decided to make the cut off at 8th Edition rather than at MM block. Allowing MM block onwards would have neccesitated the banning of Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, storm cards etc. Modern on the other hand absolutely does not need a banned list (maybe a few more affinity hosers like Energy Flux and Null Rod in the format but that's all it needs).

[Koby]

First I was like cool I can resleeve my old dredge reanimate... Ohw wait, troll's banned

Okay, then maybe affinnity for old time's sake... Damn, also baned

Allright, big red FTW then.... Ohw God chrome mox is baned???????

I don't realy "get" the banned list. especially when they leave stoneforge mystic and jace the mindsculpter legal....

Don't worry, they'll get banned too in short time. You make a valid point, however, that the format's appeal loses it when all the key players are factored out. Not to mention that the better decks in the format are just yesteryear's Extended decks.

Consider:
Combo Elves
Faeries
Hypergenesis
Caw-Blade (attesting to the power of SFM + Jace)
Tempered Steel
etc

From the looks of it, none of these decks seem terribly enticing to play all together/against each other.

[Clark Kant]

Modern will only be monetarily easily accessible to early adopters. Once the format starts taking off, if the format starts taking off, I would expect Zendikar fetchlands and Ravnica duals to go up higher than they are currently. $400ish for a set of Rav Duals may be about right now, but if the format becomes popular you could expect that to double fairly easily. The sets aren't in print anymore and they'd be integral in manabase stability. While there may not be the same supply problem as True Duals in Legacy, the lands alone will create a monetary barrier. You'll also probably want Jaces, Tarmogoyfs, Bob, Cliques, EE's, ... last I knew those weren't 5 dollar cards either.

Yes, but the Ravnica duals could be reprinted easily in a future set, as many times as needed. The same goes for Bob, Clique, EE, and maybe even Goyf at some point.

Also, the Ravnica duals are not unfair, fetching a Ravnica dual involves Lightning Bolting yourself. That's a fairly big drawback against any aggressive deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

Masques/6th would necessitate a significantly larger ban-list but I agree it's a much better breakpoint. Wizards stated that this format is not replacing anything, that it's just an experiment but I imagine it's being groomed as an Extended replacement for some time down the road. Extended is famously unpopular with players and exists only because of the PT's. Legacy on the other hand is famously popular right now but is unacceptable as a PT format because of the poor availability and sky-high prices of staples.

Modern is a format that captures much of the spirit and feel of Legacy while not presenting the cost concerns that keep Legacy from being heavily supported. Will it eventually supplant Legacy if they move forward with it? Maybe. SCG will hold out as long as they can on replacing Legacy with Modern at their opens even if Modern does catch on because Legacy has a larger pool of singles to sell.

Having done a fair amount of playing on Workstation, I can say that right now combo is the only tier 1 approach. Control is too weak and aggro can't diversify their answers well enough to deal with the various combo strategies (hypergenesis, dragonstorm, 12 post, etc.). I've been doing well with B/G Melira/Persist. Contrary to statements earlier in the thread, the format feels nothing like Extended. It feels like Legacy lite, with an FT only a turn slower (on avg.) than Legacy.

[Sims]

Yes, but the Ravnica duals could be reprinted easily in a future set, as many times as needed. The same goes for Bob, Clique, EE, and maybe even Goyf at some point.

Also, the Ravnica duals are not unfair, fetching a Ravnica dual involves Lightning Bolting yourself. That's a fairly big drawback against any aggressive deck.

Well they can't precisely be reprinted at will. They have to do reprints in ways that will not negatively affect standard and standard goes in cycles where they want you to play multi or want you to play as little multi as possible, though that seems to be waning as of late and everything seems to be multicolored. But you're right, reprints there can ease that pain but that doesn't fix the major staples (Goyf and Jace are mistakes that they said they wouldn't reprint, for instance) and all the legacy playable 15-20 or more cards (thoughtseize, bob, clique, stuff of that nature) would probably go up a bit farther... It just doesn't seem as budget as people are claiming it to be. Cheaper than legacy, yes, but i think we need a dose of realism here as well and not just zeal about a cheaper format.

Also- Jitte is banned because it is dominant in aggro strategies and SFM is legal. SFM will already be dropping 4/4 lifelinkers on your face, do you really want it dominating the piss out of your zoo/goblin/fae deck when they grab jitte and you never get back in the game? Counterbalance still exists, so with proper deckbuilding Thopter/Sword would still be a deck if sword were legal, and Hex/Depths would easily be a deck (thoughtseize, duress, hexmage, depths, nighthawk, obliterator) if Depths was legal... Hell, it might even be like CYOS or Old Extended where HexDepths/ThopterSword was the SAME deck.

The banned list makes sense outside of Grave Troll. Unless they're printing some ridiculous enabler in M12 or innistrad outside of zombie infestation that would allow Dredge to be good, i'm just not seeing the reason why Troll should be banned.

[MirrorMask]

hmm one guy said about prices going up after the format settles. What worries me is this, if the demand for the modern extended's cards go up so will the prices for much legacy stuff as well as the prices for the new sets. Think about it. Cards that wouldn't be played in standard might be very good in modern as well as legacy. If modern is here to stay then my guess is that it will draw more ppl than legacy cause of lower budget(in theory). This will maybe double the demand for certain cards cause they will be used in 2 to 3 formats. So in the end not only duals,fows,leds etc will have insane prices. The only way, as i see it, to keep the prices down and support well all the formats is to CANCEL the reserved list and to start making products for all the formats(boosters, pre cons , mini collections etc). Its supposed to be a GAME not stock market. F... horders,collectors and on line sellers we give no shit for them.

p.s back in 2004 underground seas went for 15 $ ... now? 100+ WTF??? cardboard must be scarce nowadays ...

[Sims]

Okay so i did some thinking on my lunch, and in a format without Force of Will I'm actually starting to buy banning Grave Troll.

Zombie Infestation in M12
Oona's Prowler from Lorwyn.
Bloodghast
Narco
Bridge
DR
Iona
FKZ
Terastadon/Woodfall
Angel of Despair
Blazing Archon
Phantasmagorian

Two 2cc Discard outlets that would enable reliable dropping of a dredger into the yard that dodge Misstep. Sure they get hit by Spell Snare and Spell Pierce but those maindeck might be questionable in a format that will arguably be centered around creature interactions, plus the option of just DDDing Phtasmagorian and rolling from there. Granted I can't think for the life of me of a reliable draw card that will stack up to Breakthrough or Coliseum, but you'd likely have more time to be able to dredge maybe once a turn and still setup a DR on Iona, FKZ, or something...

The shell is almost viable, even without all the power that the deck got from odyssey block.

Edit:

Drowned Ruskla or whatever the hell that card is
Burning Inquirey
Goblin Lore
Merfolk Looter

With Grave Troll I think the deck could get there.

[Mr. Safety]

"A lot of people want to play their hobby of magic more seriously, but they don't want to drop car-payment-sized chunks of money into them. I think there is a resurgance of older people getting into or back into magic(...)."

True, feel the same here, even if I am not 31:tongue:.

"Golgari Grave-Troll is another big question mark...it's one of the more powerful drege enablers, sure...but there are so many decent graveyard hosers that it should be a non-issue."

This is just awkward, all playable Dredge enablers (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, LED, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Ichorid, Cephalid Coliseum, Cabal Therapy; even Brainstorm and Hapless Researcher) are NOT legal and Crypt, Extirpate/Extraction, Relic, Leyline are. What are they afraid of? Burning Inquiry+Zombie Infestation (M12 reprint)? lulz.

You can play a much more block-based dredge deck and abuse Life from the Loam/fetchlands and remember that Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below are still legal...not to mention Darkblast, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug, Dakmor Salvage, Wistful Thinking, Compulsive Research, and Thirst for Knowlege. I think you'll see Dread Return and Iona showing up, too...

EDIT: oops, sorry, I should have read the above post by SIMS, he said what I meant to but better...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Of course it could get there with Grave Troll, but it will be 1-2 turns slower at least than Legacy, and notice that all the good graveyard hate is legal in modern. I'm not worried about dredge dominating the format even with Grave Troll - there aren't even any good 1 cc discard enablers.

[SpikeyMikey]

Sims: easy one. Ideas Unbound from Kamigawa.

Edit: you guys talk about a creature driven format and it is, but not the way you mean. Control is balls right now. If you're playing on MWS you'll see that the only decent are either putting Emrakul into play (Post, Hypergenesis, Elves) or doing lethal without the combat step (Dragonstorm, Swans and my persist although I think I'm the only one running BG Persist). Since the combo decks all win turn 4 or 5 at the latest (Hypergenesis on turn 2 or 3 but it's a glass cannon a la Belcher), aggro is in a really rough place and control is a morass of situational bullshit counters and isn't flexible enough to actually beat anything consistently.

That's the major reason I feel Masques needs to be the cutoff. The format needs Counterspell and Foil and Daze wouldn't hurt. I think Ritual and possibly even Vamp would be acceptable, if and only if, Tendrils and maybe Desire were banned (Desire is cute but I think Dragonstorm might be better in OverExtended just because it wins instantly whereas Desire can fizzle). There are other cards that concern me more like Piledriver. But it would open some interesting avenues as well as checking the proliferation of combo.

[Sims]

Nice. Even better, Less splash colors the better.

@Azar: I know the deck would be slower than legacy and all of the hate is still there, it's just a matter of how much slower. If you don't open Crypt and think you're good because you'll have time and your opponent DD-s Phantasmagorian... you may be in a bigger world of hurt than you'd think. Cause unless you've got misstep, eot they drop Stinkweed, life from the loam, bloodghast into the yard and then say land, Burning Inq... It's no breakthrough, but it might be enough to get some tokens, narco, the bloodghast, etc. on the battlefield and give you a race. It's by no means going to be Legacy Dredge in modern, but it'd probably still pack a punch.

[4eak]

Without GGT, here might be a Modern Manaless Dredge shell:

// DDD - 20
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Darkblast
4 Dakmor Salvage

// Free Draw - 12
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Gitaxian Probe

// Free Dudes - 12
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

// GY-Goodies - 16
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 River Kelpie
1 Blazing Archon
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Not an amazing deck, but still decent. GGT would be nice to have. Banning it, however, doesn't seem all that back breaking to me. Ban Bridge from Below instead of GGT and the deck dies. Hell, memnite might even be worth running -- the deck loses a lot without the ability to put free dudes (namely Ichorid) into play consistently.

Going for a Mana-route, there are very good options as well. Drowned Rusalka and Burning Inquiry, as mentioned previously, are a good start.

I think there might simply be better combos than Dredge.


peace,
4eak

[Mr. Safety]

Of course it could get there with Grave Troll, but it will be 1-2 turns slower at least than Legacy, and notice that all the good graveyard hate is legal in modern. I'm not worried about dredge dominating the format even with Grave Troll - there aren't even any good 1 cc discard enablers.

Loam + Raven's Crime

Fetchlands will be rampant, so Loam is a solid option in Dredge. Inquisition of Kozilek is still pretty powerful, and don't forget Thoughtsieze. You don't NEED Cabal Therapy in Dredge, it's just the more powerful option in the current legacy.

Kudos to Spikey Mikey for remembering how great Ideas Unbound was when Dredge was in extended. AND he mentions one of my pet casual projects I'm working on with Dragonstorm... +100 points

[troopatroop]

I don't give a fuck about Modern Magic, and you're all embarassing for doing so. Play a real man's format.

[SpikeyMikey]

Actually, I just have a head for Magic cards and that one sticks out because of the hype when it first came out. Anything that looks remotely like Ancestral Recall gets a lot of scrutiny when it's spoiled.

[Sims]

I don't give a fuck about Modern Magic, and you're all embarassing for doing so. Play a real man's format.

So when are you buying your Drains and Bazaars to play some old 1.5?

Nick, just cause you don't care about Modern doesn't mean other people don't and it doesn't mean that Wizards won't push it. If that does happen I'd like to at least have some idea of where I'd go should that happen and Legacy starts to take a downward spiral. I know well enough that I likely won't be able to really give up this game, and while I could probably get by just on Commander, that's not what most of the stores around here play. If Modern went mainstream, it'd get support, and I'd have the choice to either play it or play little to no Magic.

[joemauer]

Asking if modern magic will kill Legacy is like asking if standard will kill Legacy. Well not quite.

Wotc could make a format to compete with Legacy but Modern Magic in it's current form will not be it. MM is plagued with too many problems as it was created. Most sane people knew extended would be bad as soon as Wotc announced the new rotation. Same with the announcement of MM. Why start with a block that needs 7 cards banned, followed by a set with 2 more cards banned(mirridon and kamigawa).
This format could start at Ravnica and only need two or three cards banned to start with. Or do overextended which seems uber fun. Modern Magic seems like a compromise where no one is happy. Also, this format would be dominated by combo more so than Legacy ever was. Legacy players like combo decks more than Standard players(this may be an unfair stereo type). So this means new players who like standard and may have a lot of modern magic legal cards won't try it because combo isn't fun. Then there are the Legacy players who aren't about to invest more money to play a weaker Legacyesque format. Most Legacy players don't have to buy new cards for their decks very often. Legacy players need a lot of incentive to invest money in a whole new deck even if it's cheap.
So I don't think MM as it stands now will appeal to many players, same as extended format. All this being said Legacy is getting dangerously expensive and extended is Very unpopular so something has to be done. This is not IT though.

[Rune]

@OP: Yes. By now it's pretty clear to me that the format will die sometime in the foreseeable future. It's only a matter of how soon and what format will replace it. Modern Magic might not be it, but if they keep throwing enough shit at the wall, eventually something is gonna stick.

Hasbro has no interest in this format existing as anything else than a niche format, since it only reduces their profit. Using myself as an example, I (re)started Magic and began playing Standard and cracked a lot of packs. After realizing that cracking packs is stupid and that Legacy is about ten bajillion times better than Standard, I very rarely bought new WotC products moving forward. I'm sure there are many others that have done the same, and I don't think Hasbro are huge fans of this kind of consumer behaviour taking place on a larger scale.

The format is also getting stupiditardedly expensive to get into. I hadn't really realized this until I started selling my collection, but some of the staples, like FoW and Wasteland, have increased by 300-500% in price since I began playing Legacy. For now, people still buy into the format, but I really wonder how close to the breaking point the prices have come.

These things make me believe that Hasbro will continue their strategy of slowly phasing out Legacy as a relevant format until it's actually replaced by one of their much more profitable 'new age' eternal formats.

Next up: Total number of Legacy GPs cut in half and replaced by Modern Magic GPs instead. (?)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think that it's inevitable that Legacy will die. I think the real question is when the supply of core staples will enter a terminal price spin, because that's going to set the stage for the decline. Earlier this year it looked like that might've been happening, but then prices dropped a bit and have stabilized since.

If Legacy is popular enough and established enough, Wizards is much less likely to simply let it die and replace it with another format. And while Wizards is insistent on not breaking the reserve list now, time breaks all bonds.

[Tiago_B.]

I don't see it as a mechanic issue so much as a convenience thing. There are an awful lot of questionable cards in those blocks--dark ritual, brainstorm, fact or fiction, goblin ringleader and piledriver etc.--that might start the format in places the designers don't want it to be (I mean, faeries with brainstorm?). IMO, it's probably easier just to axe those three blocks and wash your hands, jobs done. Not to mention the fact that the modern card border does give everything a nice, consistent look to it.

I agree with most of that.

Tarmogoyf seems too powerfull for the format as well. They could ban it, as well those cards you said, and a few others (Mind's Desire, Dragonstorm, Tendrils), it just feels like they wanted to skip all that work, which looks terribly lame.
I honestly think that including Onslaught, Invasion, and Mercadian Masques blocks would be of great benefit to the format. If those 3 blocks were included, id get a playset of Psychatogs lol, i sure miss playing with them (and Counterspell).

The format will be ridiculous in the beginning, but with the right bans, it might stick around.

Right now, the banned list is a joke, and when the format has 3 perfectly reasonable blocks cut-off just because 'its easier this way, so we dont have to actually ban those', it looks like a huge pile of crap of an excuse from WotC to cut those 3 and call it modern, and say its just 'because of the looks'.


Also, i never liked the 'new' look, i just got used to it. Artifacts look cool, but other than that, i rather have the old-school visual. But that's my personal prefference. I do agree that it might be preferable to most other players to have things the way they are, specially to new players.

[Clark Kant]

Double post.

[Clark Kant]

Hasbro has no interest in this format existing as anything else than a niche format

Legacy is the only format that still gets sanctioned events regularly where you can play with Alpha and Beta cards.

That is important to Wizards I think. To have a format where even the oldest cards ever printed are still legal, gives Magic more of a history, and more security. It's basically an assurance from Wizards saying look, we will never abandon any cards we print, even portal cards (with a few rare exceptions for the purpose of power level).

I think for that purpose alone, and for the purpose of magic's history and it's legacy, Wizards should make sure that Legacy will be always be a format they support.

Like I said, I think Wizards should support four formats with sanctioned events (Legacy (for historical value), Modern (for budget minded players who do not want their cards to rotate out), Standard and Draft).

Wizards does make money off legacy. Legacy players buy tons of singles, like Jaces, Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskulls.

And legacy players also draft and buy sets like Commandeer, and help keep their local magic communties likely and thriving. Many are shop owners or run playgroups as well. It would be stupid for Wizards to turn it's back on them.

[Tiago_B.]

It would be stupid for Wizards to turn it's back on them.

+1

If Legacy was to end, i would probably stop playing.....Vintage is way off my budget, i dont like Extended, T2 is always rotating and has a short card pool, and Draft is just not my thing......

Despite being annoyed by some things in Modern, i could turn into that format, but it wouldnt be the same thing.

And yes, Legacy players always buy a lot of stuff, since they regularly have a bigger financial capacity (not my case, since im a student). Still, i buy a lot of singles, boosters, duel decks, etc.
Some ppl even buy 4 duel decks just to get 4 of each card.

[workingdude]

Will it eventually supplant Legacy if they move forward with it? Maybe. SCG will hold out as long as they can on replacing Legacy with Modern at their opens even if Modern does catch on because Legacy has a larger pool of singles to sell.

I don't agree with your statement. SCG (Ben) has always said that they would rather have cards that are more available and sell lots of those because it would mean more players/customers, then just sell small amounts of rare, impossible-to-reprint cards for a lot. While I suppose there is a larger "pool" to sell from in Legacy, the staple/playable cards in modern are much more accessible and numerous than the staple/playable cards in Legacy. Therefore, I'd imagine SCG would prefer a modern tournament scene as opposed to the legacy tournament scene.


we've repeatedly taken a stance of "we'd rather sell 4x $25 cards and have people playing the format, than sell 1x $100 card and have nobody playing the format".

If WotC announces Modern later this year as an official DCI format, I'd be wary of SCG announcing that the 10k weekends for next year's seasons would now be Saturday Standard, Sunday Modern. If this happens, modern magic WILL threaten the viability of Legacy.

[frenchy-man]

I don't agree with your statement. SCG (Ben) has always said that they would rather have cards that are more available and sell lots of those because it would mean more players/customers, then just sell small amounts of rare, impossible-to-reprint cards for a lot. While I suppose there is a larger "pool" to sell from in Legacy, the staple/playable cards in modern are much more accessible and numerous than the staple/playable cards in Legacy. Therefore, I'd imagine SCG would prefer a modern tournament scene as opposed to the legacy tournament scene.



If WotC announces Modern later this year as an official DCI format, I'd be wary of SCG announcing that the 10k weekends for next year's seasons would now be Saturday Standard, Sunday Modern. If this happens, modern magic WILL threaten the viability of Legacy.

The fact is that legacy players depend much less on hasbro and wotc than standard players. I mean, at least in Europe and in France, many tournament organizers organise tounraments without any help from wotc. Have you heard about the bom ?
This new format won't affect legacy, but extend. I believe that extend is dead with modern magic.

Seriously, who on this forum could stop playing in a format with fow and duals ?

[phonics]

personally I would like it if standard has extended card pool size, and extended was a 'overextended' format. I think of legacy like the format 'where the big boys play', not necessarily saying that standard and extended are for noobs, duking it out with some of the most broken (yet accessible) cards is a lot more fun than pecking eachother to death with birds holding swords. using extended as a eternal format (like masques on) would fill the gap between standard and legacy much more than it does now.

[mossivo1986]

I don't think Modern threatens Legacy at all.

If you asked me which is more fun to play? I would say Modern. Reason? Kind of obvious, it hasn't been explored; people keep playing the same decks with few changes, and honestly; i'm having a blast creating. I was really shocked that both wotc and the community didn't try to come up with anything new strategy wise. It was quite depressing to see. Other then that dredge deck, which could be fun.

[lordofthepit]

I don't think Modern will threaten the viability of Legacy because it simply isn't as attractive a format outside of budget constraints. The vast majority of players who want to play Eternal want to do so because they want access to essentially every card ever printed. If you like really broken, swingy games, there's Vintage; otherwise, there's Legacy, and the latter has suited the needs of many Magic players until the recent rise in entry costs.

Fortunately, there are enough players (at least in my local area) who are already able to play Legacy that "entry costs" isn't really a concern with respect to having a healthy local Legacy community (which I understand may not be the case elsewhere). I don't believe anyone who's able to play Legacy will ever willingly "downgrade" to a lower budget option as long as Legacy remains viable, and I believe while Legacy may not be able to continue to grow due to increasing costs, it will certainly remain healthy.

On the other hand, I think if Modern Magic takes off (which will certainly require official sanction from Wizards, some random player-created website won't due the job), it can certainly take away (to some extent) from the Legacy player base. I wish the Modern folks all the best, but I never intend to play it, and I ask that they never promote Modern as a replacement for Legacy.

[Eksem]

I think the best thing to do is to kill Extended and Modern and it's ilk in all it's forms; double the size of Standard, leave Legacy as it is and leave Vintage and Commander to player driven communities. Less work, less confusion, less awful formats.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't agree with your statement. SCG (Ben) has always said that they would rather have cards that are more available and sell lots of those because it would mean more players/customers, then just sell small amounts of rare, impossible-to-reprint cards for a lot. While I suppose there is a larger "pool" to sell from in Legacy, the staple/playable cards in modern are much more accessible and numerous than the staple/playable cards in Legacy. Therefore, I'd imagine SCG would prefer a modern tournament scene as opposed to the legacy tournament scene.



If WotC announces Modern later this year as an official DCI format, I'd be wary of SCG announcing that the 10k weekends for next year's seasons would now be Saturday Standard, Sunday Modern. If this happens, modern magic WILL threaten the viability of Legacy.

What you say is largely true, however, your premise is somewhat off.

For any business, inventory is a necessary evil. Reason being, inventory represents money that is unavailable. It's an asset, but it's not as liquid as cash. And your RoI on your inventory is based entirely on how fast it turns. I'll use a simplified example to show you what I mean. If you have a card that you bought at $10 and sold at $11, you made a dollar any way you look at it, but if it turned in a month, you're grossing 120% APR (compounded once annually). If your turns are closer to a year, suddenly you're grossing 10% APR. It's the same amount of money on the sale, but less money over the long haul. And added liquidity is always good. 4 sales at $25 profit each are better than 1 sale at $100 because the faster you're turning your product, the more liquid you are and the more things you can do with your money. When it's not tied up in inventory, you can invest it in other areas, whether it's improvements to the business or literally just investing it in short term bonds or commodities markets(because just buying more inventory will not improve profitability if demand does not increase apace).

So yes, Ben ideally wants to get his turns as low as possible (there are situations where you don't want to increase your turns, such as when the volume you're moving is the capacity for your system and a small increase in volume would require additional labor, decreasing net profitability, but they're are corner cases). But I don't see Modern increasing net profitability in comparison to Legacy for two reasons.

One, Ben has to keep the inventory on the Legacy singles whether SCG is supporting the format or not. I'm not sure if SCG is organized enough to have actual set safety stocks on cards (a safety stock is a number of a given item that you want to keep in inventory in order to meet the expected demand from customers in relation to the lead time of the item) or if Ben & co. just eyeball it, but they're keeping some level of stock on every single they can. I'm too lazy to look, but I'm pretty sure that if I wanted an Aurochs, SCG would have them in stock. And if they turn once a year, I'd be shocked. Compare this to say a Tropical Island where Ben can turn his safety stock once or twice a week. If you remove a pool of half the cards ever printed from the tournament scene, you still have to stock that pool. You might be able to shave a little inventory here and there on items that won't generate as much demand (such as Force of Will) but your turns will go down and your net profit per sale will go down (as the price falls), so you lose on the balance of things.

Two, and I say this with the caveat that Modern is brand new and relatively unexplored so I *could* be wrong (but I doubt it), Modern does not and will not have the number of playables that Legacy does. It doesn't have as many high-turn, high-volume cards. Legacy is fantastically wide open and always has been. There are more viable decks and more viable singles in Legacy than in any other constructed format. This is fantastic for turns as it decreases the number of cards that you stock that are low-turn, low-RoI propositions. What this means is that if demand for the two formats is equal, Legacy is the format that will make them more money. There is, of course, a tipping point, at which excess demand for Modern would increase net profitibility on the business overall to compensate for the decreased profitability of half their stock, but like I said, SCG will (if they're smart, and they've never shown any signs of being anything but) hold on to Legacy as long as they can.

[Mr. Safety]

The perfect situation would be for Modern to augment Legacy, as in pulling the legacy noobies into another format but doesn't completely eliminate them. I think a quasi-eternal format without Wasteland and Force of Will is incredibly appealing to most players. Just think about the lack of those 2 cards (combo concievably becomes the dominant type and pretty much ALL DUEL LANDS become playable)

Wizards can combat those problems with re-printing of solid combo hate and also printing newer more creative counterspells...just look at Mental Misstep and tell me that card wasn't a freakin' awesome job done by wotc? The new Flusterstorm? Definately playable in the Modern format.

Cards like Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex being reprinted would put a solid check on the combo decks, especially decks like Dragonstorm and Elves combo. Hell, remember that Oblivion Ring and Angel's Grace are in the format alongside Thoughtsieze and Inquisition of Kozilek. AND it would be a format where people can sling their (now banned) Jace's again.

I understand personal sentiments, but looking at it objectively, I see it becoming an incredibly popular format. I think it will go forward in some shape or manner, it just hasn't been finalized yet (I don't think anyways...) It creates a format where folks will still be scrabbling to get newer cards (more so than legacy), lets them play cards from older sets, and yet doesn't even come close to challenging the reserved list. It's actually pretty smart.

EDIT: Stop and think about how popular EDH (well, commander) is becoming. This is one more indication of the demise of Legacy...folks will be playing all their legacy staples in EDH or Vintage...and modern becomes the eternal format of choice. Not sure that will happen, but it is concievable considering EDH is rising in popularity. I'm fairly certain that most legacy players use EDH as their casual format of choice, at least it seems that way.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think Modern threatens Legacy at all.

If you asked me which is more fun to play? I would say Modern. Reason? Kind of obvious, it hasn't been explored; people keep playing the same decks with few changes, and honestly; i'm having a blast creating. I was really shocked that both wotc and the community didn't try to come up with anything new strategy wise. It was quite depressing to see. Other then that dredge deck, which could be fun.

BINGO! Players want to build new decks again, rather than re-hash and update older decks. Even if the decks don't really vary that much, the idea of doing something DIFFERENT with a new set of boundaries appeals to a TON of magic players (no Wasteland? YAY! My Twilight Mires are playable again! No Force of Will? YAY! I don't have to have my tempo deck so blue-dominant anymore!)

[joemauer]

BINGO! Players want to build new decks again, rather than re-hash and update older decks. Even if the decks don't really vary that much, the idea of doing something DIFFERENT with a new set of boundaries appeals to a TON of magic players (no Wasteland? YAY! My Twilight Mires are playable again! No Force of Will? YAY! I don't have to have my tempo deck so blue-dominant anymore!)


You can play twilight mires in extended without worry of FOW or wasteland. :/

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, but everyone knows that the current extended is pathetic, lol. Opening it up to 8th Edition+ would make it pretty exciting again.

[Flan R-E]

actually we can't play our twilight mires in extended.

Because nobody plays extended. there's zero tournaments in my town save the odd PTQ.

I'll probably play modern more than legacy simply due to not having bought duals and forces before the price-jump..

one nitpick though, I've been pushing for a Pauper community with some success at my gamestore and I worry that Modern will steal everybody away.

[edgarps22]

I think this will certainly take some of the player base away from Legacy, specifically the ones who have their Ravnica Duals but not originals, but overall this is a replacement for Extended, and a damn good one at that. This format, if you haven't noticed, is what Extended was before the switch, only now adding the 2nd Mirrodin Block. The field of playable cards and decks were known when they made the new ban list, which I don't agree with half of it. But this will make Extended obsolete and open up a new and enriching format. I hope that they change the ban list drastically though. Thopter Sword is fine, Hexmage Depths is fine. When those were a powerhouse in Extended I played a Zoo deck that made that matchup basically a Bye. Now with more tech like the new, and old, swords with Stoneforge Mystic, the metagame would be drastically different. It would also be drastically different than Legacy, which is why I do not think it will threaten it too badly at first. Over time when the prices rise to the point of alienating new entrants, yes, immediately no. I would love to be able to play all the newer strategies that do not work in Legacy because they simple don't interact enough with combo, or Force, etc. Things like Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows, Faeries, Jund would be funny with some Ravnica support, etc etc. Heck Pickles combo, Teferi decks, Greater Good, I can keep going listing really fun and entertaining decks that are powerful that would be viable in Modern, but not Legacy, and that in and of itself would be a draw to the format. As long as it is not "Legacy minus bombs" then it will not threaten Legacy. If it were like Overextended, and started at say Masques, then we would have a real problem because it would be just like Legacy, except without the bombs. I don't want that, and neither do the rest of us. If a new format is going to exist, it needs to feel different. This would feel very different and be very fun.

[Mr. Safety]

@edgarps22: spot on, bro. I feel the same.

[nedleeds]

BINGO! Players want to build new decks again

80% of the people that play magic don't want to build decks at all. Or can't.

[4eak]

80% of the people that make up statistics don't want to do the empirical research. Or can't.

My sheerly anecdotal experience leads me to believe that most magic players are interested in building new and very different decks, but, of course, most of them "can't."

The spirit of Mr. Safety's claim doesn't seem in jeopardy to me.



peace,
4eak

[mosaic]

Modern actually might threaten Legacy in a way. I remember quite well when old Extended rotated (Onslaught), many people started to play Legacy. The main reason was rotation itself at least here on old continent.
Modern can take over Legacy, but if thats the case I think (hope as well) it will be very very slow process, which may never tame Legacy completely.
Reasons why it won't happen 'overnight' like with Vintage is, that staples are out there in a way larger numbers than P9 cards. And to be honest, just look what old cards are played these days in huge numbers and are on reserved list?
The number is very small and over time it will shrink just to original duals, wotc is doing quite good job, slowly replacing old cards with new ones. The only problem will be replacing those original duals, no other cards are really that crucial or that hard to replace, are they? (those on reserved list I mean)
Moat, Tabernacle ... well, not that they are played in huge numbers.

I prefer just to break that promise and even as a owner of old duals (and few others) I don't care if they lose value as a tradeoff for having my favourite format to continue.
Well that might not happen, wotc will probably give us this Modern format and as supply of old duals thin on a nonacceptable levels, Modern will start to grow, just like Legacy took over Extended players. But I hope, that Legacy will remain here, after all, there is quite big difference in numbers of available staples between Vintage and Legacy.

[alderon666]

Modern will only threaten Legacy if Wizards put some good money in supporting it. Nowadays Legacy gets very little attention from Wizards and only survives because it's a format that many people love.

If Wizards starts throwing money at Modern, what will you prefer: playing your local self-organized Legacy tournment or the Modern magic one supported by Wizards with huge prizes and stuff?

Take the example of Vintage. It's still played by some people, but Wizards simply invests no money into it. It still lives just because of the work of those who love it. Legacy is following the same path...

PS: special note to SCG for putting a lot of effort into making Legacy more popular and succeeding.

[SpikeyMikey]

Modern will only threaten Legacy if Wizards put some good money in supporting it. Nowadays Legacy gets very little attention from Wizards and only survives because it's a format that many people love.

If Wizards starts throwing money at Modern, what will you prefer: playing your local self-organized Legacy tournment or the Modern magic one supported by Wizards with huge prizes and stuff?

Take the example of Vintage. It's still played by some people, but Wizards simply invests no money into it. It still lives just because of the work of those who love it. Legacy is following the same path...

PS: special note to SCG for putting a lot of effort into making Legacy more popular and succeeding.

Legacy grew into a popular format without any Wizards support. However, it would not be as large as it is today without the GP's. Who knows if SCG would be hosting Legacy Opens if Wizards hadn't started throwing GPs at the format?

But Legacy gets more attention from Wizards now than it ever has before, so I guess I'm not seeing where you're saying it gets very little attention. The sets have more eternal playable cards, the banned list is moderated (with a somewhat overly heavy hand, but still) and there're major tournaments for the format.

[mosaic]

@SpikeyMikey: the fact that Legacy gets more attention from Wizzards doesn't mean necessarily a good thing.

Actually they admit, that it is quite scary as Aaron Forsythe himself said "You'd think that the decade of learning would actually make the work easier, and that is true for many aspects of the job, but now more than ever, with the growing popularity of humongous, era-spanning formats like Legacy and Commander, the silent demands of that part of the audience saying, "I have access to 10,000 cards—impress me" weigh mightily on us."
source:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/148

From that I took, that Wizards are quite afraid of Legacy format. Usualy it is in our nature, that we don't like things we are afraid of, aren't we?


(sorry for weak english, I am not native speaker, just an old fart from mid-east Europe)

[dontbiteitholmes]

If WotC announces Modern later this year as an official DCI format, I'd be wary of SCG announcing that the 10k weekends for next year's seasons would now be Saturday Standard, Sunday Modern. If this happens, modern magic WILL threaten the viability of Legacy.

It depends on how many Modern events popped up all over the place. I don't see SCG abandoning Legacy anytime soon when the last event I went too a little under a month ago, set a new record in Legacy attendance. As long as things are heading up I don't see why SCG would rock the boat, and they basically have zero competition in Legacy. There is all of two Legacy tournaments a year in North America not at Jupiter games or SCG worth traveling for, Legacy World Champs at GenCon and the one America GP. If WotC doubles the amount of GPs and runs Modern they will probably run 4-6 at least to get the ball rolling, and it would still be in SCGs best interests to keep running Legacy as plenty of people would still rather play Legacy then a format that only exists because the decks will on average be 30-60% cheaper. I mean even people that absolutely HATE some cards/decks in Legacy refuse to move over to Modern, just look at Dr. Jones. He never stops complaining about FoW yet refuses to move on to Modern.

[Mr. Safety]

80% of the people that play magic don't want to build decks at all. Or can't.

80% of statistics are made up on the spot.