[Modern] Thread?

[mossivo1986]

Can we put Modern in the alternative formats section? It would be nice to have a site that actually recognizes this format as something people enjoy playing.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Can we put Modern in the alternative formats section? It would be nice to have a site that actually recognizes this format as something people enjoy playing.

On a related note can we get a Pauper forum? I mean the format probably has as much in "common" (get it) with Legacy than Modern in the end and is also more popular at the moment. CYOS can go, I think that shit is done and gone at this point.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

That format is not even confirmed... I have no idea why everyone is so excited about something that DOES NOT EXIST.

[SpikeyMikey]

I wouldn't mind a Modern/OverExtended sub-forum in alternative. CYOS doesn't exist as a real format either, so I don't see what the complaint is SurFit.

There is a forum at MTGSalv for Modern, but I tend to feel like post quality is higher here than any other MtG forum.

[SpikeyMikey]

Since I just got myself banned from the MTGSalv forums, I'm definitely far more interested in having a Modern subforum for the Alternative Forums here.

[(nameless one)]

I don't mind talking about Modern

[Gui]

I don't think any bad can come from a pauper and a modern forum.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I don't think any bad can come from a pauper and a modern forum.

Totally.

Can we have a thread for Standard, too :laugh:?

[boneclub24]

The above two are eternal formats, so your argument is invalid. :p

[Mana Drain]

I just wanted to say, best format ever. Eldrazi Green forever.

[GGoober]

I just wanted to say, best format ever. Eldrazi Green forever.

More like Hypergensis. No FoW? GG.

[Sims]

More like Hypergensis. No FoW? GG.

Seriously. The only card I lose from my funsies Chancellor Hypergenesis deck is Elvish Spirit Guide, lol.

[Mr. Safety]

Living End and Restore Balance want to have words with you...they are both serious combo decks based on the cascade mechanic as well.

[(nameless one)]

What about a Necrotic Ooze combo deck? Its essentially going to be like Extended Aluren from back in the day. Possibly go with the back-up Emrakul Cheats (via Elvish Piper perhaps)?

[Mana Drain]

Anybody found a good forum yet? The only one I know of is mtgmodern .com.

[(nameless one)]

I think mtgmodern is going the be like the TheSource is to legacy.

Speaking of Modern, I have a feeling that its gonna be the combo format. Everything from Elves, Hypergenesis to fringe combos like Sunny-Side Up and Persist. Hopefully Mental Misstep would be enough to that format.

I am actually excited about Modern. Its just like Type 1.5 after the format break up.

[boneclub24]

There are also a lot of good combo hate cards in the format as well, such as Ethersworn Canonist and Chalice of the Void. I agree though, combo will dominate the format for quite awhile.

[(nameless one)]

I really wish they'd unban Sensei's Divining Top to make CounterTop viable.

[boneclub24]

I really wish they'd unban Sensei's Divining Top to make CounterTop viable.

While is does lose a lot of power without Brainstorm, I still feel like it would be a little too powerful. Though it would be cool to have an actual control deck be viable.

[daugarten]

It seems as if we're expecting combo to take off in Modern since we've lost Force and Daze. What else do we have to keep combo from dominating the format?

Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Dispel
Mana Tithe
Guttural Response
Nix
Chalice of the Void (though, I don't think there are many ways to rush this out first turn)
Cursecatcher

Doesn't seem like a whole lot to work with, at least to me. Either you play heavy blue control, or you play combo... Here's to hoping that's not the case because I prefer aggro strategies myself.

[trivial_matters]

It seems as if we're expecting combo to take off in Modern since we've lost Force and Daze. What else do we have to keep combo from dominating the format?

Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Dispel
Mana Tithe
Guttural Response
Nix
Chalice of the Void (though, I don't think there are many ways to rush this out first turn)
Cursecatcher

Doesn't seem like a whole lot to work with, at least to me. Either you play heavy blue control, or you play combo... Here's to hoping that's not the case because I prefer aggro strategies myself.

Mindbreak Trap, Stifle against Storm, maybe Flusterstorm.

[boneclub24]

It seems as if we're expecting combo to take off in Modern since we've lost Force and Daze. What else do we have to keep combo from dominating the format?

Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Dispel
Mana Tithe
Guttural Response
Nix
Chalice of the Void (though, I don't think there are many ways to rush this out first turn)
Cursecatcher

Doesn't seem like a whole lot to work with, at least to me. Either you play heavy blue control, or you play combo... Here's to hoping that's not the case because I prefer aggro strategies myself.

Chalice @ 0 stops all Cascade decks. There is also Moon effects. I've been having good success with black-based Junk decks as well.

[Mr. Safety]

While is does lose a lot of power without Brainstorm, I still feel like it would be a little too powerful. Though it would be cool to have an actual control deck be viable.

Scepter-Silence would be viable...remember, no Force of Will or Daze to worry about your turn 2 scepter getting hosed.

[trivial_matters]

Isochron Scepter is probably way too slow.

EDIT: Doh, was talking about using Scepter against combo.

[SpikeyMikey]

From the playing I've done, control isn't viable at all. Aggro can be, if it's got the right hosers. The format is too broad for control to exist because it can't handle the variety of decks in the field during the early part of the game. Think control in Legacy prior to Mental Misstep.

Combo is where it's at. Hypergenesis is like Belcher; it's easy to hate but also very fast and very difficult to beat if you're not loading on hate. 12-Post can do it only because they can drop as many giant men as Hypergenesis can. All In Red is inconsistent, but with Simian Spirit Guide and Rite of Flame, it can get to its 2 mana rituals (Desperate, Pyretic) pretty easily and drop turn 1 fatties. I lost a match to turn 1 Deus of Calamity into turn 2 Blood Moon game 1 and turn 1 Koth into turn 2 Magus of the Moon game 2. It invests a lot into its beaters, but without Force of Will (or at least Foil, give us Masques!) it's not that much of a risk.

I run BGw Persist, as it's fun and incredibly consistent. It's also balls slow compared to Elves and Hypergenesis, but it'll kick the snot out of anything "fair".

[Sims]

Scepter-Silence would be viable...remember, no Force of Will or Daze to worry about your turn 2 scepter getting hosed.

Spell Snare and Spell Pierce are still in the format. You've got misstep, but running out a turn 2 scepter seems ill-advised unless you know for sure your opponent is on combo and has no out.

[Mr. Safety]

You can play your OWN countermagic to take care of those problematic spells. Misstep does it, and Spell Snare and Spell Pierce would be found somewhere in the list's 75, or at least it would in MY 75. I wouldn't feel bad about running it against aggro on the play, either...what will they play? Naturalize in the maindeck (lulz)??? Even Qasali Pridemage would be a little too slow considering you should have outs to hate in mind somewhere in your 75. (Side note: Pridemage will become a staple of the format no doubt...maindecked in many lists similar to legacy)

I think the biggest problem is the lack of decent imprint targets. You lose Brainstorm and Fire/Ice. You can still have Remand, Lightning Helix and Boomerang/Echoing Truth, but as you say, it may be too slow. I play a casual scepter deck along with Rule of Law...possible exploitation with Ethersworn Canonist, too. I think the lack of Wasteland makes for a format where you can be really greedy with your mana-base, so having a 3-4 color scepter deck isn't even really that risky. At the least getting Lightning Helix (red) for the aggro matchup and getting Silence (white) for the most matchups and Remand (blue) for the combo matchup as well.

[SpikeyMikey]

Stick is not viable. It has nothing to do with maindeck artifact removal and everything to do with every deck out there wins before it comes online or ignores it (Dredge, aggro). Great, you've got Chantlock. What is your solution to Punishing Fires?

[edgarps22]

Punishing Fire/Grove Zoo gets really goofy, and has access to Gaddock Teeg to stop some of the more unfair strategies. Can't wait to sleeve it up.

[Admiral_Arzar]

For this format to be really awesome, they need to unban:

Artifact Lands
Chrome Mox
Golgari Grave-Troll

And then (if necessary) ban Disciple of Vault and Hypergenesis. I wouldn't mind an unban of Dark Depths honestly, at least that card allows black-based "control" decks to work in the format. It's true that this format is going to be combo and aggro heavy though.

[SpikeyMikey]

For this format to be really awesome, they need to unban:

Artifact Lands
Chrome Mox
Golgari Grave-Troll

And then (if necessary) ban Disciple of Vault and Hypergenesis. I wouldn't mind an unban of Dark Depths honestly, at least that card allows black-based "control" decks to work in the format. It's true that this format is going to be combo and aggro heavy though.


To be completely honest, my feeling about Affinity in Modern is the same as it is in Legacy. If you're running Ravager or Disciple, you're doing it wrong. It's a 2 card combo in a deck with no tutoring with minor applications outside of the combo. On the flip side, working completely at odds with DotV/Ravager are potentially 12 cards that all serve as better finishers. So you know, you build your deck towards the finishers that you'll see in 80% of your opening hands instead of the one that you'll see in 16%. The artifact lands themselves would be the issue, not Disciple.

[Mr. Safety]

P-Fires is a slow win/con unless you're playing man-lands. You essentially deal 1 damage a turn (provide 1 from Groves, play Fires, deal 1 damage.) Hopefully the Stick player has a decent finisher available to outrace that (goyf, 2nd Scepter with Lightning Helix)

I still feel the biggest detriment is the lack of Fire/Ice. In many situations, it's just BETTER than Chant/Silence because you can permanently deal with weenies, soft-lock a problematic threat while drawing extra cards, and provide damage to your opponent to win.

I feel there are enough cheap counterspells to make Scepter viable, namely Spell Snare (to stop Pridemage, Naturalize, Disenchant) and Mental Misstep (to stop Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Crush). Honestly, again, Silence isn't neccessarily the best target...Remand would be concievably better, or Boomerang/Echoing Truth.

I know I'm being stubborn about this (possibly even jerk-like?) but I would try it, even if nobody else did.

[Sims]

For this format to be really awesome, they need to unban:

Artifact Lands
Chrome Mox
Golgari Grave-Troll

And then (if necessary) ban Disciple of Vault and Hypergenesis. I wouldn't mind an unban of Dark Depths honestly, at least that card allows black-based "control" decks to work in the format. It's true that this format is going to be combo and aggro heavy though.

Honestly the format is already pretty combolicious, and Dredge works even without Grave Troll, so I would be hesitant with that particular unban. I'd give the format time to actually be fleshed out (if it becomes official) before jumping the gun on any unbans.

I'm in a toss up about the Arti-lands... on one hand I don't think classic Affinity would be that strong, but on the other hand, Metalcraft aggro would be ridiculous since there are no fast artifact-sweepers in this format... And paying 4 for Shatterstorm or Creeping Corrosion seems like it could be too late.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Honestly the format is already pretty combolicious, and Dredge works even without Grave Troll, so I would be hesitant with that particular unban. I'd give the format time to actually be fleshed out (if it becomes official) before jumping the gun on any unbans.

I'm in a toss up about the Arti-lands... on one hand I don't think classic Affinity would be that strong, but on the other hand, Metalcraft aggro would be ridiculous since there are no fast artifact-sweepers in this format... And paying 4 for Shatterstorm or Creeping Corrosion seems like it could be too late.

Dredge lacks good discard outlets in this format, and also cards like Ichorid, so I don't consider it a format-wrecking threat by any means.

Sure, "Metalcraft aggro" (never seen such a list) might be absurd, but it needs to be absurd to keep up with Hypergenesis, etc.

[nedleeds]

The fact that they went crazy with the banned list before even letting the format get rolling is disheartening. Banning artifact lands,ggt, Dark Depths (every color has a marit lage answer), but leaving something as absurdly ubiquitous as goyf in play is just lame.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The fact that they went crazy with the banned list before even letting the format get rolling is disheartening. Banning artifact lands,ggt, Dark Depths (every color has a marit lage answer), but leaving something as absurdly ubiquitous as goyf in play is just lame.

For the 10008097986798723th time, Goyf is just a vanilla beater. It should not, and will not, be banned, IN ANY FORMAT. I do, however, agree that they went too crazy with the banlist. Just as long as Skullclamp and one half of Counter-top are banned, I don't really care otherwise.

[nedleeds]

It's the vanilla beater. I'm not advocating its banning, just pointing out something as awkward as Dark depths being on there while goyf roams free.

[Admiral_Arzar]

It's the vanilla beater. I'm not advocating its banning, just pointing out something as awkward as Dark depths being on there while goyf roams free.

Dark Depths was a definining deck before they butchered extended. When I saw it on the banlist (along with troll, arti lands, and Chrome Mox) I thought they were just trying to kill/nerf all the good decks from old extended. Then I saw that Hypergenesis wasn't banned...

[SpikeyMikey]

I feel like they didn't go far enough on the banned list. Or on the list of formats available (MM would give the format Daze and most importantly Foil and Onslaught would give Goblins their Piledrivers). I just had some guy get all bent out of shape on Workstation because he said Persist took "no skill". From a guy who was playing SFM and Puresteel. Yup. Seems pretty skill intensive. Obviously far more so than setting up a 3 card combo...

But like Sims said, combo is all the format is. If you're not playing one of the three tier 1 decks (Elves, 12post and Hypergenesis) you'd better have a damn good reason for it. Hyper beats Elves, Elves beats Post, Post beats Hyper. Nothing beats all 3 because you need heavy discard to beat Hyper, massive removal to beat Elves and LD (which doesn't exist because Wizards felt LD wasn't "fun" and hasn't printed anything useful in 15 years) to beat Post (unless you're fast enough to win by turn 4 or 5 every game). Zoo is close to viable, if it's packing 4 MD Cannonist and Punishing/Grove. It still has issues with Post but it can beat Hyper and Elves at least some of the time.

[edgarps22]

Ghost Quarter can do some serious damage to 12post. Try that in a Zoo build with Punishing/Grove. My bets are that Zoo can actually take them all down reasonably often, especially with a slight blue splash for Meddling Mage. That gives a lot of decks fits and is easy to fit.

[ivanpei]

Is this format for real? I have an opportunity to buy an entire set of shocks and I really really need some input on the format. It seems alot like legacy for kids to me since I have all the revised duals. But if everyone plays it, the rav duals are gonna take off and I'm going to end up looking pretty smart. Thoughts? Even if modern dies an ugly death, Edh gobbles up the rav duals like no ones business so it's a pretty sound investment since I'm getting it at magiccards.info "low" prices. Thoughts?

[SpikeyMikey]

My gut is that Modern is too broken as a format to see support. Too many good threats, not enough answers. But that's how Wizards likes it these days, so perhaps they'll support it. Who knows.

[SpikeyMikey]

Ghost Quarter can do some serious damage to 12post. Try that in a Zoo build with Punishing/Grove. My bets are that Zoo can actually take them all down reasonably often, especially with a slight blue splash for Meddling Mage. That gives a lot of decks fits and is easy to fit.

If you've got GQ in your opening grip to hit that first Cloudpost before they start Vesuvaing it. Even then, it just buys you time. Maybe that's enough or maybe they get down a turn 4 Wurmcoil or a couple of consecutive Glimmerposts and buy that turn back. I've lost to 12 Post in Legacy before while packing 4 Wastelands and 3 Vindicates. And Waste is leagues better than GQ. But if you want to test it sometime I can throw Post together and we can play it out.

[ivanpei]

My gut is that Modern is too broken as a format to see support. Too many good threats, not enough answers. But that's how Wizards likes it these days, so perhaps they'll support it. Who knows.

The Tom la pille article on 27th may pretty much shows wizards is serious about it and they are really using the community cup as a testing ground. Anyway, I'm getting the set at a good price so I can just sell them at cost to Edh players if it doesn't pan out. There are alot of Edh players where I am, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Greenpoe]

My gut is that Modern is too broken as a format to see support. Too many good threats, not enough answers. But that's how Wizards likes it these days, so perhaps they'll support it. Who knows.

This is why they should go back further than 8th edition. The whole "new boarder" thing is completely arbitrary and not too helpful between promos and other sets like Archenemy, etc., especially when it would take 2 seconds to find out if a card is legal or not. I'm sure the format will be dominated by Jace, Stoneforge and Confidant. The best decks will probably run full sets of all three.

Personally, I think a format with no Dark Rituals or Chrome Moxes or Mox Diamonds ends up as boring.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is this format for real? I have an opportunity to buy an entire set of shocks and I really really need some input on the format. It seems alot like legacy for kids to me since I have all the revised duals. But if everyone plays it, the rav duals are gonna take off and I'm going to end up looking pretty smart. Thoughts? Even if modern dies an ugly death, Edh gobbles up the rav duals like no ones business so it's a pretty sound investment since I'm getting it at magiccards.info "low" prices. Thoughts?
Once upon a time, there was an event called the "Invitational," an annual tournament hosted by Wizards to which various pro players and community/fan favorites were invited. At one of these Invitationals, the pro players in attendance were asked to play a format called "Choose Your Own Standard," wherein they could choose any two blocks and a core set and make a deck using those cards.

This format has gone exactly nowhere since then.

One could argue that Modern is about as "real" right now as Overextended, which has its own MTGO tournaments (organized by I think Gavin Veahry or however you spell his name). It also has a lot of fan support and is arguably a better format than Modern could be if the pros started working on it and it matured. Wizards has remained silent on the Modern issue since the Community Cup finished, and IIRC admitted at the time that the banned list used was speculative and there had been little to no prior testing of the format. If Modern were to become a reality, one would hope that they would test it thoroughly to make sure it has actual depth and isn't hideously broken, but who knows when or even if they'll do that? Figuring out a format takes time, and if they want it to be an actual competitor to Legacy in terms of attracting and retaining Eternal players, they'll need to make sure it's interesting. Releasing a half-baked format and having immediately turn into a clusterfuck is a sure way to get people to never play it again - look what the rotation of Onslaught and the advent of the Thepths deck did to Extended.

Furthermore, using the CC as a reference point for brewing now is a bad idea because players on a team weren't allowed to duplicated decks. For all we know, there may actually only be one or two highly dominant decks (most likely a Caw-Blade-style port with Bob, Jace, and Stoneforge) and a host of weaker secondary contenders like Hypergenesis and Elves or something.

[ivanpei]

You're right, I really want it to work as I can immediately play two formats with pretty much the same cards but different lands. The problem which worries me is scg opens. What is going to happen to our dear legacy format if scg switches their open from legacy to modern? Hopefully scg will just maintain the legacy open and host modern tourneys, making it 3 tourney formats. That would be ideal.

Apparently hypergen is like the dtb in modern. I won't be surprised though, format really needs some effective disruption. No fow/hymns really limits your choices. An updated banlist and we are good to go!

On another note I just bought the damn lot. I got it at 60% scg so no matter what happens I'm covered. At worse, I can just pawn it to eh players for a slight profit. If modern takes off, I'll be a happy panda. No risk here. Just a chunk of change gone from my skinny bank account. Oh well.

Btw is it just me or is scg gearing up for modern. Their most expensive rav duals are hallowed fountain and breeding pool @20 dollars each. That's insane, basically it's like telegraphing:

We know modern is gonna be stoneforge, jace and tarmogoyfs, deal with it.

[overpowered]

the source: your source for the speculatively dying format known as legacy

[Final Ritual]

I think if given the choice Lapille would just let legacy die off and have modern/overextended be the eternal format of choice. This way they wouldn't have to listen to people tell them to abolish the reserved list.

[mossivo1986]

The entire reason I made this thread is because I felt like Modern is going to go somewhere. Choose your own standard was never going to become a real format, and i'm pretty sure I don't need to explain myself here. Over-extrended was, and still is a bad format, as theres too many threats and not enough answers. Modern is really just a great format! It's truly a rock paper scissors format and I really enjoy it.

This is a deck i've been working on for a bit, and I think it has alot of good things going for it.



// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
3 [GP] Stomping Ground
2 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [WWK] Sejiri Steppe
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest

// Creatures
2 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
4 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [LRW] Primal Command
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [M11] Acidic Slime
SB: 2 [UD] Plow Under
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [PLC] Kavu Predator
SB: 3 [TSB] Fiery Justice
SB: 1 [CFX] Scattershot Archer

[(nameless one)]

I think if given the choice Lapille would just let legacy die off and have modern/overextended be the eternal format of choice. This way they wouldn't have to listen to people tell them to abolish the reserved list.

And they could just reprint whatever they feel like needs to get reprinted.

Although I actually want to see some cards that are not on the Reserved List to get printed, for the sake of Modern.

[Sims]

@Mossivo: All due respect, what's your plan against Hypergenesis? Turn 2 Cannonist every game post board and hope they don't bring in oblivion ring or combo off on their turn 1-2?

[lorddotm]

@Mossivo: All due respect, what's your plan against Hypergenesis? Turn 2 Cannonist every game post board and hope they don't bring in oblivion ring or combo off on their turn 1-2?

To be fair, Hypergenesis is completely broken, and will probably end up banned.

[(nameless one)]

@Mossivo: All due respect, what's your plan against Hypergenesis? Turn 2 Cannonist every game post board and hope they don't bring in oblivion ring or combo off on their turn 1-2?

What about Chalice at 0? Would that stop the Hypergenesis when it gets cascaded into?

[Sims]

To be fair, Hypergenesis is completely broken, and will probably end up banned.

Very true. I play it occasionally in legacy when I feel the local meta is ripe for it (as in, when people get bored of playing blue) and it's hilarious. It's the "less consistant but more hilarious version of belcher" as my friend and I call it in.

In a format without FoW i feel it almost has to be banned, but I'm going to enjoy playing it while it isn't.

edit: yes, chalice at 0 stops Hypergenesis/Living End/Restore Balance. The issue is sticking one turn 1-2 every game so they don't combo you off, and even then they can board in Oblivion Ring and just delay tehir combo turn.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I can't imagine Modern turning into paper unless Hypergenesis gets axed, or they do actually man-up and print Force of Will in m13.

Although actually, from looking at their current weird shitty Banned list, they might do the opposite and ban everything that Cascades - after all they didn't axe Affinity, just the lands to cast it with :/ :/ :/

Hypergenesis isn't broken unless you're a cheating-ass cheater when you cast it; that's all Ardent Plea does is find HG FTW. It'd be a pity to lose Bloodbraid Elf, but then again maybe not.

[Sims]

If they removed the 3 mana cascaders, Bloodbraid and the other higher CC cascaders could still find the Genesis but it'd be a bit more random due to hitting your Simians, for example. So, if that were to be the case Cascade would go from hypergenesis to Cascade Swans instead.

I'd rather see them ban hypergenesis/living end/restore balance and let the cascaders live because they do open up interesting design space outside of combo. Jund for example was an amazing machine that worked because of bloodbraid and bituminous.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Mossivo: All due respect, what's your plan against Hypergenesis? Turn 2 Cannonist every game post board and hope they don't bring in oblivion ring or combo off on their turn 1-2?
Let the blue Jaceforge Confidant decks drive it out of the metagame? I'm not sure how Hypergenesis could reasonably beat a deck like that.

EDIT: To elaborate, the opponent can let the cascade trigger resolve and find Hypergenesis, then counter the Hypergenesis. What does Hypergenesis do if it can't cast its namesake card? It doesn't have a SnT backup plan, and Jaceforge Confidant gets all the best countermagic, plus Thoughtseize/Duress, plus midgame bombs like Persecute (naming green or white would strip most of the threats from hand, IIRC), Jace, and Stoneforge for SoFI and SoFF. You get to tie it all together with Bob as a card advantage engine plus a bunch of cantrips.

How often does Hypergenesis beat that? Even if you open two green Chancellors and a Simian Spirit Guide, you still have to have Violent Outburst in hand or you end up having to suspend Hypergenesis into your opponent's eight million response options.

[Sims]

True, but building a deck and just assuming you won't play a matchup has never really settled well with me, so I just think i personally would like more game against Hyper ifi know it's going to be there. Even in a tournament with a ton of CawBlade esque decks, there's a good chance you'll still end up running into Hypergenesis, perhaps more than once.

Compounded with how cheap it is to throw together Hypergenesis in comparison to any of the Jace/forge decks, it's also reasonable to expect to see it more especially in the early stages of the format.

Also- It's why I've played Chancellor of the White. Not a perfect answer, but it has helped.

[SpikeyMikey]

I run something similar to Mossivo's list, except mine's just a pure combo deck, not a Zoo deck with a combo tossed in it as a secondary win-con. I'd much rather just win outside of the red zone. To be honest, it's not a tier 1 deck, but with the bad shit that people play on Workstation, I can win 90% of my games even with a subpar deck and it's just more *fun* than Post, Elves or Hyper. There's a lot of loveable jank feeling to the deck that appeals to the casual Mikey from 12 years ago. Oh, you're loaded up on counters? I'm just going to use this Birthing Pod to find my entire chain starting at Dryad Arbor. Good luck stopping it. Between GSZ, Pod and Fauna Shaman, you can pretty much "go off" and either gain infinite life or do infinite damage on turn 4 consistently.

Banning Hyper won't fix the format. AIR, 12 Post and Elves will still be too good for the format. TBH, Elves should go toe to toe with Hyper, since they fish around the same turn, but Elves is capable of reloading and doing it all over again whereas Hyper isn't (and Elves is more consistent in the quality of its opening hands). Unless the Hyper is packing Urabresk (or opens with Chancellor), in which case they can strike with Emrakul first which tends to end things. AIR is inconsistent, but it's also busted as hell - think Belcher (pre-ETW Belcher) in a format without FoW. You don't know terrifying until you've gone 0-2 in the face of turn 2 Deus of Calamity turn 3 Blood Moon in G1 and turn 1 Koth, turn 2 Magus in G2. I think it's the only match of Modern I've ever lost on MWS. For those of you not familiar with Deus, it's basically like your opponent dropping Smokestack/Braids on turn 1 on the play except it only eats *your* permanents. Oh, and it's a 6/6, so it's a bit of a clock, in case you thought you might need a few turns to dredge up an answer to something that eats a land every turn coming down before your second turn.

And then even if you cut the balls off of those decks (say banning Pyretic Ritual, Desperate Ritual, Heritage Druid, Cloudpost and just for good measure, Emrakul), you've got the tier 2 strategies like Persist, Hive Mind or Swans that will dominate the format as soon as it slows down another half a turn. I mean, my Persist deck doesn't give a fuck about counters or removal; it's packing damn near a quarter of the deck as tutoring for extra combo pieces and can win from out of nowhere just about any time you tap out. And a turn 4 clock is tough for aggro to race, especially when you're packing 4 Kitchen Finks just as part of your combo.

Basically, Over-Extended has a better card pool than Modern, but without going back to Masques, which gives a format a poor man's Force in 'Foil', no format is going to survive without a banned list as long as your arm. Wizards has printed too much retarded shit.

[ivanpei]

I think the big matchup wheel is going to be hypergen/zoo/uwb mystic bob. That is Truely rock papers scissors. I don't see hypergen beating thoughtseize, spell pierce and mana leak. If modern turns out to be a ptq format, it could be very interesting.

[mossivo1986]

i've been asked how I deal with hypergenesis combo.

1. It's not worth dedicating the kind of hate it takes to dedicate to this deck, and most people don't play with a standard "good" list yet. There are still alot of flaws that will only be settled with time. Usually challice and meddling mage is enough to beat the deck, or challice with two counters in your library post board. As for my deck the way to play it is the following board plan

+4 cannonist
+2-3 trini
+1 murderous redcap

If they dont drop emrakul they wont be able to kill you faster then the combo can just draw the game. On games where you have an extra turn you primal or have a redcap and just kill them. All in all this plan was too intensive, and your better off just hoping cannonist sticks for 2 turns. That is all you can really hope for if your not playing blue or black.

You really shouldn't get all bent over backwards about hypergenesis, because its fairly easy to beat if you want to play permission, or fast aggro like domain zoo. As far as I see it this is what modern currently looks like

Uw fish (Visions jace mystic)
12 post (cloudpost vesuva, glimmerpost, primevil titan)
domain zoo (nacatl, qasali, tribal flames.)
Supreme blue variants (jace, visison, sackles, firespout)
hypergenesis

My deck has a fairly strong matchup against the first four decks, and sacrifice against hypergenesis, which is alright in my opinion.

[mossivo1986]

by the way this UWb deck your speaking of cant beat grove combo, the creatures arnt big enough, and grove just wrecks all the weenie fish decks, it's even fairly difficult for zoo to deal with. Faries really has the same problem, and so does elves backed with cannonist and grove combo.

[SpikeyMikey]

When someone puts together a Cawblade deck that can actually win, I'll buy into the idea that it'll be part of the meta. But seriously, (most of) you guys are talking about a format you've never actually played. I did lose to a control deck last night (for the first time since I picked up the format), but that's because I punted badly.

The problem with control is you can load it with all the good stuff you want (not Spell Pierce, btw, it's trash against half the relevant decks in the format) but you can't make it good against everything. Sure, counters and discard help against Hypergenesis (although 1 is not enough, as they'll often have multiple cascade spells and/or Chancellor). But the deck is, as I mentioned before, very similar to Belcher pre-ETW. It's not a flexible strategy and it's a bit inconsistent (as you have to have a good mix of mana, cascade and fat) but it's faster than anything else in the format (although Elves is close, as it can go off turn 2-3 also) and a nut draw just wins if you don't have a turn 1 answer to it.

Like I've said, the stuff you see on Workstation is 95% trash. I keep playing against people trying to play fair midrange strategies and I just tear their faces off until they get mad and quit. But again, I'm more than happy to play anyone that wants to put a list together and test with me. It'd be nice to have some real competition...



Edit: So I built GreenPost today. Just to fuck around since I'm aware that it's retardedly good and I wanted to get an idea of how good. I Summoning Trapped my way into a turn 3 Emrakul in my first game online. And I know that turn 3 Emra isn't all that busted in Legacy, but in a format that lacks Force of Will? Honestly, if the game goes past turn 5, you're going to have giant scary colorless things every game. The listing, in case you're interested in a completely untuned list (that's still stronger than it ought to be) is:


4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Explore

4 All is Dust
2 Beast Within

4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Summoning Trap

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Stomping Ground
6 Forest

Sideboard

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Firespout
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Beast Within



The board for sure needs some work. I don't think Chalice should be Chalice, I think it should be a 4th Emrakul and 2 more Ulamogs (as dropping them off of Hypergenesis is more effective than slowing down the Hypergenesis in the first place) and I don't have room, I think, to pack both Firespout and Chalice in out of board against Elves (and while Chalice at 1 shuts Elves down, they can find Viridian Zealot off Summoner's Pact or GSZ, Firespout resets the board and buys more time in the long run I think). Or maybe I can fit them both, cutting out the Summoner's Traps, the Beast Withins and 2 Wurmcoils. In any case, with my limited testing, I'm not really sure what this deck is scared of. Something packing more than 4 discard spells plus 4xTectonic Edge? Maybe not even that.

[SpikeyMikey]

I thought it would be helpful to give a rough breakdown of tiers in Modern. Obviously, this is my take, so if anyone else disagrees with any of it, I'd be more than happy to have a discussion.


Tier 1

G/x 12Post
Elves!
Hypergenesis

Tier 1.5

All In Red

Tier 2

Merfolk
U/W Mystic
Fires Zoo
Persist
U/x 12Post

Tier 2.5

Scapeshift
Ooze Combo (Kiki/Fanatic)
Hive Mind
MBC
Faeries
Swans
RDW
Rock
Jund

Tier 3

Living End

Tier 1


People have a tendency to underestimate Hypergenesis, thinking that it can simply be hated out with Chalice of the Void or control decks. The problem is that both of these are solved with the same card - Summoning Trap. The deck *is* inconsistent in that it requires some pretty solid opening hands to have the nuts quick kills, but it's far more resilient than people imagine.

12Post is similarly underestimated, probably in large part due to a lack of tuning. The only major Green listing I've seen online runs Ancient Stirrings over the much more powerful Sylvan Scrying. This is just a function of people with limited knowledge of the card pool and under-testing. My own build is similarly not optimized, but the deck functions like Valakut does in Standard; you have to beat it early or you simply will not be able to handle it. Disruption will slow it, but not by much.

Elves! is a known quantity, being a viable creature-based combo deck in Legacy. The deck does lose Priest of Titania and Wirewood Symbiote but little else. It's not surprising that a turn 3-4 combo deck with a very solid backup aggro plan is a tier 1 deck. It can have issues with recurring removal like Punishing Fires or Engineered Explosives (or CotV @ 1!) but it can also often win before any of those cards comes online.

Tier 1.5

AIR is easily as powerful as any of the tier 1 decks. Its lower ranking on my scale is merely due to the natural inconsistency of any deck seeking to chain acceleration spells into a single big threat. Not enough mana or not enough threats and the deck does nothing. When the deck is firing on all cylinders, however, there's nothing out there that it's scared of.

Tier 2

The tier 2 decks aren't bad decks, any of them. They're all powerful decks, but none of them approach the sheer bustedness of the tier 1 decks. Merfolk loses the free counters of Daze and Force, but retains all of the key lords. It's a half step slower than its Legacy cousin, having to spend mana on Leak/Snare, but its still a contender. It has issues with Punishing Fires and it's too slow to beat the format's combo without free counterspells.

U/W SFM based decks are capable of beating most of the fair decks in the format. Unfortunately for control players, the best decks out there are completely unfair. Batterskull is big, but he's not as big as Emrakul or even Wurmcoil Engine and while a turn 2 Stoneforge is fantastic in Standard, in Modern, tapping out on turn 2 to search up Rhox War Monk's big brother is an invitation to your opponent to combo out and win the game on turn 3. The deck is therefore ponderously slow, always having to keep counter mana up. Also, Summoning Trap is (or should be) a staple in 2 of the top 3 decks in the format, at least post-board. Countering an early Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map to keep your opponent off posts and watching them Trap into an Eldrazi is a frustrating experience.

Zoo is a fast deck that loses little from its port from Legacy to Modern. It's the only truly viable aggro deck, as its capability to punish slower decks with fire makes it well suited to beating the format's tempo decks. Sometimes, it can race the combo decks as well. Unfortunately, the deck lacks the raw power that decks like 12Post or Hypergenesis have, meaning that there are games you just auto-lose to a good hand from your opponent.

I included Persist, despite being the only person out there playing it, because, well, it's my listing and I can. And the deck is a lot of fun, with inevitability against just about everything because of its redundancy. It's also a full turn slower than the serious combo decks and requires 3 pieces to function (Melira/Juniper, a Persist creature and a sacrifice engine). But it's a very challenging deck to play and it offers a wide array of options in any situation.

After tier 2, the decks drop off rather quickly. The tier 2.5 decks can all win games but not consistently. They're dogs to the tier 1 decks and struggle against the tier 2 decks. They're not comboing out quickly and they lack the tools to play a control role effectively against other combo decks.

[Sims]

Just pointing out, Mikey, Trap does dick for Hypergenesis. You don't cast creature spells with that deck for your opponents to counter, and odds are if they're making dudes and you're making a simian spirit guide... they're winning.

[SpikeyMikey]

Just pointing out, Mikey, Trap does dick for Hypergenesis. You don't cast creature spells with that deck for your opponents to counter, and odds are if they're making dudes and you're making a simian spirit guide... they're winning.

You're right. I need to RTFC. I was thinking it was any spell countered by an opponent, not just creature. I even went to gatherer to make sure it covered abilities (like CotV) but didn't bother with the rest of it. That explains why people are using repeal as a cotv answer instead.

[Koby]

Spikey - you forgot to include Eye of Ugin for maximum Emrakul deployment. You have 8 ways to find it, so it's pretty good.

I would try Primeval Titan too, just to make it overkill/consistency.

Any reason for the red splash over the blue splash? You also get to take advantage of Mindslaver/Academy Ruins.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Spikey - you forgot to include Eye of Ugin for maximum Emrakul deployment. You have 8 ways to find it, so it's pretty good.

I would try Primeval Titan too, just to make it overkill/consistency.


Primeval Titan is essential in this list. Not only does it basically ensure an Emrakul the turn after you cast it, but it allows you to fetch multiple Glimmerposts to race aggro in addition. Wurmcoil Engine is great, but all it does is race - Titan is more versatile, and is also much better against Path to Exile, Jace, Echoing Truth, Oblivion Ring, etc.

[SpikeyMikey]

Spikey - you forgot to include Eye of Ugin for maximum Emrakul deployment. You have 8 ways to find it, so it's pretty good.

I would try Primeval Titan too, just to make it overkill/consistency.

Any reason for the red splash over the blue splash? You also get to take advantage of Mindslaver/Academy Ruins.

I left Eye out on purpose. It doesn't actually tap for mana, making it dead early in the game. Its ability to tutor up specific Eldrazi is cute, but honestly, you generally don't need a specific Eldrazi. With 12 fatties, 20% of your deck is giant creatures, meaning you've got 2, on average, by the time you can start casting them. While double Wurmcoil doesn't pack the same punch as say Emrakul and Ulamog, it's still a pretty tough clock to race. I also went 1 more land than the version I was basing it off of; since I need the green mana early for Sylvan Scrying, I wanted to make sure I had plenty.

I saw Prime in the listing I based this off of. I don't like it. I think it's overkill, win-more, dead space in the listing. 4 Cloudpost with 4 Scrying and 4 Maps should be enough to get you started on the ramp spells. Once you get to 6 mana, the next turn you're probably going to have access to 10 or 11, meaning that you don't really need the extra mana at that point. And Primeval Titan is pretty unimpressive as a beater. I mean yeah, 6/6 trampler is mean, but compared to 12/12 with Annihilator 4? It's kind of a bitch. So I haven't tested with it, but I haven't missed it either.

Originally, I was thinking Mindslaver/Ruins. But I realized that I had no way to tutor for Mindslaver and running blue just for a slaver lock that I'd have to naturally draw seemed too Danger of Cool Things. How many situations in Modern are you going to run into where a spaghetti monster won't win but Mindslaver will? I'd rather just run Beast Within as a solution to things like Ensnaring Bridge. Red, on the other hand, gives me Firespout out of board, which is really your best option against Elves since they'll combo out and drop Emrakul faster than you will. CotV works against them too, but they've got Viridian Zealot for that. They don't run any anti-wipe tech.

[Koby]

I think that adding Eye of Ugin allows you to run less Eldrazi. Very similar to the Turbo-Drazi thread we have for Legacy. Something like 2-3 Titans, 2 Emrakul 1 Kozilek 1-2 Ulamog. I don't see the need for 10 Eldrazi in the deck, when 5 would be sufficient with a land that can tutor for them.

Thirst for Knowledge is also a great draw engine in the deck, which helps in many situations.

I'm thinking something akin more to the old UG Tron decks from old Standard:

UG 12 Post
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Simic Signet
4 Expedition Map

3 Primeval Titan
2 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
2 Ulamog
0-1 Oracle of Mul-Daya

3 Repeal (to answer Blood Moon/Magus)
4 Explore
4 Sylvan Scrying
3-4 Condescend
2-4 All is Dust
1-3 Thirst for Knowledge

The key is to have multiple cantrips while maintaining some tools to control the stack. 25 land might be too much, but in depth testing will reveal that. This is essentially what I'm going to be testing on MTGO over the next few weeks.

[SpikeyMikey]

Hey, I could be wrong. I've got next to no experience with the archetype in any format. But I'm running heavy on giant monsters for two reasons; one, it means I don't waste a turn tutoring for something. If I've already got it in hand, I don't have to spend 7 to go fetch it up first, and even with the spells costing 2 less, tutoring up Emrakul and playing him is 20 mana. That's tough to do in 1 turn unless it's turn 7 or 8. The other thing is that I want to have giant monsters in my hand when my opponent cascades into Hypergenesis. I want to have enough giant monsters to match my opponent and then some. In Legacy, this isn't a consideration because nobody plays Eureka effects. Also, the thinner you run on real beaters, the less effective Summoning Trap becomes. With 8 Eldrazi in the deck, I've got a much better chance of finding one on a trap. I mean, I'll pay 4GG for a Wurmcoil too, but if I can drop an Emrakul or Ulamog on turn 3 or 4? I'd like to do that.

Also, I think Beast Within is better than Repeal. No, it doesn't cantrip and yes, we can make use of the insane amount of mana we generate with Repeal, but Beast is a permanent answer; they can't just replay it the next turn. I can see the appeal of cantripping; I played Snaketongue in T2 back during early Odyssey (Repulse/Jungle Barrier/FtK/Mystic Snake/FoF, basically just a shit ton of card advantage). But control decks don't run enough counters for them to counter more than 1 or 2 threats and if you've got the density, that's irrelevant. But a ramp deck is, by design, not really a tempo deck. Instead of spending the first few turns disrupting an opponent to keep them off balance, you're hoping to ignore them. So tempo oriented strategies like cantripping seem weak.

[ivanpei]

Man I can't wait till this replaces extended as the "other" PTQ format. I would so play this. Even though the tiers are pretty well established, I'm sure some enterprising pro (or us) will be able to come up with something to deal with Hypergen, 12 post and elves.

Apparently Misstep is also really good in this meta. I'm seeing alot of it MD in the UW stoneforge decks. Too bad it does nothing against Hypergen though. Hypergen really needs to get the axe IMO.

[SpikeyMikey]

With a little more play time in with 12Post, I can say that in the mirror, Beast Within is far and away the best card. You drop a Cloudpost, they drop a Cloudpost (or Vesuva yours), you drop a Forest and Beast their 'post. Suddenly, they're scrambling to try and find ways to generate mana. Also, you should be maining at least 1 Ghost Quarter for the mirror. It's amazing.

My sideboard has changed to 4 Firespout, 3 Karn Liberated, 2 Beast Within, 2 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Ghost Quarter (with another in the main in place of a Forest), 1 Emrakul and 1 Ulamog. The extra Eldrazi come in against Hypergenesis to increase my threat density and also against control, as getting to Emrakul wins you the game every time (and Ulamog's not bad as an uncounterable Vindicate that potentially comes with a 10/10 body. Having played against another green 12Post running Karn, I'm sold on it as a good replacement for Wurmcoil in the mirror. So my mirror is now -4 All is Dust, -4 Wurmcoil, +3 Karn, +2 Beast, +1 Emra, +1 Ula and +1 GQ. Whoever resolves the first (non-Wurmcoil) threat in the mirror wins, so increasing threat density and Cloudpost removal is the best path to victory, IMO.

[Mr. Safety]

Seems like Spell Snare will be big in the format as well, if for no other reason than to combat the Elephant In the Room, Stoneforge Mystic. It also handily counters Goyfs, Bobs, Bitterblossoms, and any other relivant 2-mana spells. If you have Misstep and Spell Snare in your opening hand as a blue player, you're set to really take charge of tempo.

I'm curious to start a discussion about yet another combo deck for the format: Second Sunrise

If you're not familiar with it, you end up using Reshape to dig out Lotus Bloom and a ton of cantrip 1-mana artifacts as a pretty decent draw engine. Win can be established several different ways, but usually it uses a recurred Pyrite Spellbomb (you can loop Lotus Blooms, Conjurer's Bauble, Second Sunrise, and Pyrite Spellbomb an infinite number of times once you have exhausted your library.)

The deck loses the eggs from odyssey (Darkwater Egg and Skycloud Egg) but has the opportunity to now use Etherium Sculptor for free cantrip artifacts, and decent replacements are Aether Spellbomb and more copies of Pyrite Spellbomb. The new spellbombs from Scars of Mirrodin are probably worth mentioning as well (Nihil Spellbomb for grave hate in the sideboard for instance.)

The other bonus feature of the deck is that it generates massive gobs of mana...that means potentially a hard-casted Emrakul FTW.

I've been messing around with a list for a little while now (using the legacy card pool and Tendrils as my win/con) goldfished 50 games or so and played about 5-6 games vs. opponents. It seems fun, but maybe not reliable enough. Fundamental turn is reliably turn 4...and that could be too slow. You can accomplish a win on turn 3, but it's much more difficult. The deck loses a lot of steam when you don't have access to Lotus Petal, but playing Black Lotus in any format (even if it's called Lotus Bloom) is fun for me.

Thoughts?

[Bardo]

Moved to Community.

[Darth Nihilus]

I think the big matchup wheel is going to be hypergen/zoo/uwb mystic bob. That is Truely rock papers scissors. I don't see hypergen beating thoughtseize, spell pierce and mana leak. If modern turns out to be a ptq format, it could be very interesting.



everyone is nuts about hypergenesis without mentioning restore balance.

you can bassicly play restore balance with march+Tezzeret now and go super nuts and it rapes hypergenesis easily

[Koby]

I've played against Cascade Zoo with Boom/Bust. That deck was brutal against 12post. Just throwing that out there for anyone who's started testing.

[SpikeyMikey]

I've played against Cascade Zoo with Boom/Bust. That deck was brutal against 12post. Just throwing that out there for anyone who's started testing.

I did lose to a Splinter Twin deck the other day. It used Liquimetal Coating and Manic Vandal in addition to the Deceiver Exarch. Frankly, I can't help think it's terrible, as relying on getting Liquimetal Coating every game to turn on Shatter and Manic Vandal seems bad, but he had turn 2 Liquimetal Coating both games and when you're losing a Cloudpost a turn, you run out of steam pretty quickly. I can usually survive 1-2 LD spells, but anything more than that and I have a hard time coming back.

But that's the thing. Most of the games I've lost have been to fantastic draws from my opponent. I mean, I don't expect the deck to post a 95% win rate, but against random stuff, I'd say it's well over the 55-60% that one would expect from a strong tier 1 deck. With Firespout in board, I haven't run into an aggro deck yet that can take a match from me.

[Mr.C]

Well, according to the ComicCon panel, it will be an official format. Now, to see if it will replace extended, or if it will slot itself between Legacy and Extended.

Either way, I expect SCG to support Modern in 2013, as it makes way more financial sense to them.

So, figure I have a year or so to start dumping Legacy cards.

[lordofthepit]

So, figure I have a year or so to start dumping Legacy cards.

More like time to dump excess fetchlands, Bobs, Goyfs, etc. (cards not on the reserved list).

[crovakiet]

I really hope Modern only displaces Extended. If it displaces Legacy, I am going to be one sad panda. The only good part of Modern displacing Legacy is that it does force me into Vintage so I can play my Mana Drains and Workshops again like when type 1.5 first started.

Limited testing in Modern has led me to believe that there is just way more threats than there are answers leading me to believe that there either needs to be way more banning(s) or way less banned cards off the initial test run list. See what I did there?

Maybe I can be proven wrong once pros start building in the format but since I never really enjoyed Standard and/or Extended due to stagnation it may just be a repeat of those formats all over again.

[workingdude]

Well, according to the ComicCon panel, it will be an official format. Now, to see if it will replace extended, or if it will slot itself between Legacy and Extended.

Either way, I expect SCG to support Modern in 2013, as it makes way more financial sense to them.

So, figure I have a year or so to start dumping Legacy cards.


I have said something similar to this before here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21242-Discussion-Do-you-think-Modern-Magic-threatens-the-viability-of-Legacy-or-Extended&p=562181&highlight=#post562181). While many others argue that SCG would still make more money off of Legacy than Modern (which I disagree with), I am still keeping a close eye on SCG's buylist and content writers for any hint for the 2012 SCG season. If they do announce a Modern Sunday series, then you can be I have sold off several of my Legacy staples.

Also, I believe that people are misquoting the panelists. I believe that Forsythe said that they would be "moving forward with modern." While this certainly suggests that modern may become an official format, it does not guarantee anything.

[ivanpei]

More like time to dump excess fetchlands, Bobs, Goyfs, etc. (cards not on the reserved list).

No, they will not be mass reprinting these cards. I highly doubt it. The time to buy into modern staples has passed. Everything is insanely high right now. Wizards will take their time with reprints, having said that, they have NEVER reprinted an insanely expensive card to bring the price down. Take Dark Confidant for example, what we needed was a duel deck foil or something massively available. Instead, they reprinted it as a Judge Foil, which does not affect prices much.

Modern Staples will see reprints, but the massively expensive ones will not see reprints that will bring the price down. For those who didn't buy into this format early, sorry dudes.

[honestabe]

I have said something similar to this before here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21242-Discussion-Do-you-think-Modern-Magic-threatens-the-viability-of-Legacy-or-Extended&p=562181&highlight=#post562181). While many others argue that SCG would still make more money off of Legacy than Modern (which I disagree with), I am still keeping a close eye on SCG's buylist and content writers for any hint for the 2012 SCG season. If they do announce a Modern Sunday series, then you can be I have sold off several of my Legacy staples.

Also, I believe that people are misquoting the panelists. I believe that Forsythe said that they would be "moving forward with modern." While this certainly suggests that modern may become an official format, it does not guarantee anything.


Apparently, he said it would be up on MTGO in a few months

[Koby]

Apparently, he said it would be up on MTGO in a few months

If there's any indication of "Core" formats on MTGO, then this won't pick up too much steam after the initial rush of interest. People will still mostly play Standard and Limited online, with a sprinkling of Legacy and possibly now Modern. The latter two might have competing audiences.

Other fringe formats don't fare so well aside from Pauper.
(German Highlander, Classic, and Kaleidoscope)

[menace13]

If there's any indication of "Core" formats on MTGO, then this won't pick up too much steam after the initial rush of interest. People will still mostly play Standard and Limited online, with a sprinkling of Legacy and possibly now Modern. The latter two might have competing audiences.

Other fringe formats don't fare so well aside from Pauper.
(German Highlander, Classic, and Kaleidoscope)
You can add 100C Singelton and Prismatic to that list. I don't think it will compete with Legacy as much as replace Extended. Legacy still has the better card pool and Storm- even though WOTC is slowly making it harder to play in Legacy-, Std, Block, Pauper and Legacy fire almost every event that goes up.

[honestabe]

If there's any indication of "Core" formats on MTGO, then this won't pick up too much steam after the initial rush of interest. People will still mostly play Standard and Limited online, with a sprinkling of Legacy and possibly now Modern. The latter two might have competing audiences.

Other fringe formats don't fare so well aside from Pauper.
(German Highlander, Classic, and Kaleidoscope)

Gavin Verhey's Overextended format isn't even 'real' yet he manages to get about 100 or so people every tuesday for his league. The 'tiers' of mtgo popularity are

I
Standard
Limited
II
Extended*
Block
III
Legacy
Pauper
IIII
All the stupid MTGO-only formats that nobody cares about and that never fire

Right now, the Overextended League falls into the 'tier 3' category, though it is slightly more popular than Legacy. Once Modern dailies get going, I see it as a Tier 2 format, and if it becomes a PTQ format, I think we could easily see it as tier 1

*Extended is hard, because when it's in season, it's tier 1, but when it's not, it's tier 3, so i just split the difference

[dahcmai]

If Modern would actually kill Legacy it will all be on SCG's shoulders for supporting it with the tournament series. that would be a literal knife in the back, but I seriously doubt they would support it since it would drive a knife into their profits hard.

[workingdude]

If Modern would actually kill Legacy it will all be on SCG's shoulders for supporting it with the tournament series. that would be a literal knife in the back, but I seriously doubt they would support it since it would drive a knife into their profits hard.

With the sudden rush on potential Modern staples (see SCG being sold out of some of the shocks already), I don't think that SCG would necessarily agree.

Because there are so much more Modern staples out there, SCG will have more turnover. Modern would also bring a lot more players to their tournaments on Sunday and can sustain more growth. Legacy numbers outside of the main hubs just arent seeing the tournament number's they'd like. Since the start of 2011, more than 40% of the SCG Legacy 5Ks (excluding the invitational weekend) haven't even been profitable based on entry fees numbers.

If wizards announces modern as a paper format, SCG would be foolish to let some other company take that tournament scene over.

[Watcher487]

I would like to state that it's almost impossible to find Shocks in local stores (Albany, NY) as of right now... This is due to speculation for Modern. When it was announced speculators tried to put 2 and 2 together thinking this would be and easy profit.

Turnover is just a matter of what is available. Mind you, people might hold back until they can wretch more profit out of it.

Also;


Legacy numbers outside of the main hubs just arent seeing the tournament number's they'd like. Since the start of 2011, more than 40% of the SCG Legacy 5Ks (excluding the invitational weekend) haven't even been profitable based on entry fees numbers.

The Legacy 5k's are on Sunday. It is normal to see lesser numbers on a Sunday.

[workingdude]

The Legacy 5k's are on Sunday. It is normal to see lesser numbers on a Sunday.

That is not really the point I was making. SCG raised the prize pool from 5k to 5.8k in the second tournament series. They knew beforehand that Sundays had a smaller crowd than Standard. I am assuming this is part of the reason that they did not increase to a 6.4k prize pool like Standard.

But outside of the midwest and east coast, Legacy numbers often haven't even been up to par. 30% of the tournaments would have struggled to profit even if we were using last season's prize payout of 5k. For a format that they expected to grow, numbers just havent kept up. How much of that is due to availability, format interest, Sundays, or cost, I don't know.

However, modern offers to address 2 of those issues as well as be a more attractive format for PTQ's, FNMs, and other tournament events in which Legacy does not seem to have made any progress.

[Watcher487]

That is not really the point I was making. SCG raised the prize pool from 5k to 5.8k in the second tournament series. They knew beforehand that Sundays had a smaller crowd than Standard. I am assuming this is part of the reason that they did not increase to a 6.4k prize pool like Standard.

But outside of the midwest and east coast, Legacy numbers often haven't even been up to par. 30% of the tournaments would have struggled to profit even if we were using last season's prize payout of 5k. For a format that they expected to grow, numbers just havent kept up. How much of that is due to availability, format interest, Sundays, or cost, I don't know.

However, modern offers to address 2 of those issues as well as be a more attractive format for PTQ's, FNMs, and other tournament events in which Legacy does not seem to have made any progress.

I think you are missing something kinda important here. The Sunday 5k's have never truly been a profitable tourney for SCG. That's the point I'm putting there.

Also Modern will never be an FNM format, Extended is not even an FNM format.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=events/magic/fnm

I personally think you are over reaching on your expectations here for what the Modern format might be.

[workingdude]

I think you are missing something kinda important here. The Sunday 5k's have never truly been a profitable tourney for SCG. That's the point I'm putting there.

Also Modern will never be an FNM format, Extended is not even an FNM format.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=events/magic/fnm

I personally think you are over reaching on your expectations here for what the Modern format might be.

While numbers and statistics for Legacy Saturday 5K's are hard to come by, I believe what I said and think that Modern would bring more participants to a Sunday tournament.

And also,
https://www.wizards.com/wpn/News/Article.aspx?x=fnm_changes_may2011

While Modern may affect future plans, Extended was planning to be an FNM format. Therefore, Extended has made more progress than Legacy in PTQs and FNMs.

[Watcher487]

While numbers and statistics for Legacy Saturday 5K's are hard to come by, I believe what I said and think that Modern would bring more participants to a Sunday tournament.

And also,
https://www.wizards.com/wpn/News/Article.aspx?x=fnm_changes_may2011

While Modern may affect future plans, Extended was planning to be an FNM format. Therefore, Extended has made more progress than Legacy in PTQs and FNMs.

Well, there is not any statistics for Saturday Legacy 5k's since SCG has not have one yet. Mind you it will never happen since Standard exists.

That page is from 5/11 something like, 4 months after Modern was announced and 2 months after the hype machine started working on it. I would like to think that if they were planning on making it a format for paper and considering how you believe it is the second coming, they would have announced it as a format by now.

[Sims]

Well, there is not any statistics for Saturday Legacy 5k's since SCG has not have one yet. Mind you it will never happen since Standard exists.

That page is from 5/11 something like, 4 months after Modern was announced and 2 months after the hype machine started working on it. I would like to think that if they were planning on making it a format for paper and considering how you believe it is the second coming, they would have announced it as a format by now.

Assuming you are referring to Modern, Shane, then I hate to say it... but Forsythe said at San Diego Comic Con that they planned on "moving ahead with Modern."

Hence, SCG being sold out of shocklands, etc.

[workingdude]

Well, there is not any statistics for Saturday Legacy 5k's since SCG has not have one yet. Mind you it will never happen since Standard exists.

That page is from 5/11 something like, 4 months after Modern was announced and 2 months after the hype machine started working on it. I would like to think that if they were planning on making it a format for paper and considering how you believe it is the second coming, they would have announced it as a format by now.

The earliest I can see Modern being announced by Wizards is May 19th, 2011.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05192011d

I'm not sure where you saw it announced in January.

The only thing I am actually saying is that Modern has the potential to be a thriving format, and it appears that game developers and players are both in favor of the format. It has a chance to take make SCG more money than Legacy. It has a chance to take over SCG's Sunday 5k. If it does, Legacy will be severely hurt.

Those are a lot of "maybes", but I think all of those points are fairly reasonable. I'm mainly looking forward to a discussion that issues the most important questions:

1) Will Modern make SCG more money than Legacy?
2) Based on the answer of question 1 and other factors, will the format for SCG's 5ks on Sunday change to modern?

I mentioned the tournament #'s of the Legacy 5k's to discuss point #2. SCG probably did not set up the prize rewards for a tournament series to where they would break-even on entry fees on around 40% of the tournaments. I'm assuming that they were expecting large Legacy growth across the nation to reasonably expect 200+ players every weekend. This has not happened. I am not sure if modern would bring those numbers on a Sunday, but I believe that there is a good chance that with a higher availability of tournament staples and a more reasonable cost of entry, numbers would be higher for modern than Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

While SCG probably wants to make money on entry fees for the Sunday tournament, the fact is that they don't have to. If they think Modern will make them more money total, they may switch. But SCG is a retailer first and foremost, they're in the business of buying and selling cards. Legacy tournaments on Sunday keeps their Legacy playables flowing. If it were Standard on Saturday and Draft on Sunday, their movement on anything not Standard legal would be abysmal. Since they have to keep at least some stock on all that old stuff anyway (or miss out on potential sales), it doesn't hurt to lose a little bit of money on the tournament itself to boost net on card sales, their primary business. Of course, you want to be as close to that 194 person break point as possible (or over, over is always good), but if you're losing ~$200-300 plus associated venue costs (that you probably have to pay anyway, not sure how most convention centers are about one day weekend events but it's probably like the hotel business where busy weekends are a forced 2 day minimum) you're almost certainly making that up on increased volume of Legacy legal cards.

[ivanpei]

In the long run, definitely! Im sure retailers like scg are sitting on a huge stockpile of shocks and modern cards simply because once upon a time, these cards were cheap and they had opportunities to buy them all up. It simply makes sense for them to support modern. Where does this leave legacy? A very sad place unfortunately. I don't mind legacy prices tanking since I got into it a long time ago but the format will slow down to what it was pre scg open series. It's quite sad to see legacy go the way of vintage due to it's popularity. There are literally 5-8 people who can field competitive legacy decks in my city so we can hardly get enough people for a 8 man tournament. I have to travel to singapore just to play a legacy tourney. It's sad really.

IMO scg will likely host both legacy and modern on Sunday. Modern may even get a bigger prize pool since more people are likely to play modern compared to legacy due to card availability issues. Pros follow the money and modern will most likely have the bigger crowd and the bigger prize pool. Sad really.

[ivanpei]

In the long run, definitely! Im sure retailers like scg are sitting on a huge stockpile of shocks and modern cards simply because once upon a time, these cards were cheap and they had opportunities to buy them all up. It simply makes sense for them to support modern. Where does this leave legacy? A very sad place unfortunately. I don't mind legacy prices tanking since I got into it a long time ago but the format will slow down to what it was pre scg open series. It's quite sad to see legacy go the way of vintage due to it's popularity. There are literally 5-8 people who can field competitive legacy decks in my city so we can hardly get enough people for a 8 man tournament. I have to travel to singapore just to play a legacy tourney. It's sad really.

IMO scg will likely host both legacy and modern on Sunday. Modern may even get a bigger prize pool since more people are likely to play modern compared to legacy due to card availability issues. Pros follow the money and modern will most likely have the bigger crowd and the bigger prize pool. Sad really.

[nedleeds]

IMO scg will likely host both legacy and modern on Sunday. Modern may even get a bigger prize pool since more people are likely to play modern compared to legacy due to card availability issues. Pros follow the money and modern will most likely have the bigger crowd and the bigger prize pool. Sad really.

Largely agree. Only other thing to consider is SCGs current inventory investment in legacy. If they can move product out of Legacy and slowly into modern then they make that move (or the move makes near term financial sense). Kind of a catch 22 for them, they need to balance format support with their own profits.

[Mr.C]

Guys, be real. If SCG hosts Modern (which they will), it will replace Legacy. Why even bother to have a Legacy event that only like 60 people will show up, if that.

[Richard Cheese]

I would think they will try to do both, just to drive up prices on as much stock as possible. Even if attendance drops, it's not like they were making money on entrance fees to begin with. The tricky bit for them is going to be fitting 3 formats into a single weekend. I'm thinking one of the eternal formats is going to get stuck in the Friday night spot, or they'll run one alongside standard on Saturdays.

[Zoomer3989]

I would think they will try to do both, just to drive up prices on as much stock as possible. Even if attendance drops, it's not like they were making money on entrance fees to begin with. The tricky bit for them is going to be fitting 3 formats into a single weekend. I'm thinking one of the eternal formats is going to get stuck in the Friday night spot, or they'll run one alongside standard on Saturdays.

I think the logical procession, if SCG decides to do all 3, is sadly to run Standard on Saturday and Modern on Sunday, then run Legacy Challenge events on both days alongside Draft Opens and cut some of the other side events.

[ktkenshinx]

Quote from today's Daily MTG article (link: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/153)

One such question for Aaron was about the Modern format that was introduced during the Community Cup and whether or not it was going to be coming to sanctioned play anytime soon. Aaron shrugged and went on the record and say that Modern would be a sanctioned format in the very near future—something that sent a ripple through the Magic social network and would have been one of the highlights of the panel if not for the next person to get a bonus gift from the panel.
Modern is definitely coming, and it is going to be a tournament format. I am not sure if this means that the Community Cup Modern will be the format of choice (Mirrodin/8th cutoff), or if they are going to modify that cutoff to something more inclusive (Invasion? Masques [post MTGO legality]?).

Either way, a new eternal format is coming.

-ktkenshinx-

[(nameless one)]

Better start hoarding your Ravnica Shocklands before they get over $50+

[trivial_matters]

I seriously doubt that they'll become that expensive.

What do you think will be the staples of the format? Off the top of my head, excluding the obvious shock lands and fetches: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and various equipment, Jace, Elspeth, Aether Vial, Thoughseize, Bitterblossom, Path to Exile, Vendilion Clique, Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter, perhaps Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Mental Misstep.

EDIT: Engineered Explosives maybe, Mox Opal.

Any others?

[Einherjer]

Legacy will not die. Nuff said.

[sourcefire]

Better start hoarding your Ravnica Shocklands before they get over $50+

There is some speculation that the block after Innistrad will be some sort of Return to Ravnica. If so, this would be an obvious opportunity to reprint the shocklands (and generate WotC a ton of sales, ala the Zendikar enemy fetches) and push Modern as a format. Goyfs, Bobs and other format staples will probably continue to maintain a high price, but I wouldn't be surprised if shockland prices were depressed by a reprint in the near future.

[SpikeyMikey]

I seriously doubt that they'll become that expensive.

What do you think will be the staples of the format? Off the top of my head, excluding the obvious shock lands and fetches: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and various equipment, Jace, Elspeth, Aether Vial, Thoughseize, Bitterblossom, Path to Exile, Vendilion Clique, Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter, perhaps Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Mental Misstep.

EDIT: Engineered Explosives maybe, Mox Opal.

Any others?

As it stands now, there are maybe 3 cards on that list that are playable. Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile (although it doesn't really have a home) and Green Sun's Zenith.

I get all sorts of people on MWS and Cockatrice that try and play some junky midrange deck with things like 'goyf, Bob or SFM. Nothing makes me happier than watching someone drop a Breeding Pool and a Noble Hierarch on turn 1 because I'm either going to drop Cloudposts until I can hard cast an Eldrazi or I'm going to cascade into Hypergenesis and play one that way. If I didn't dislike playing with Elves so much, I'd be ramping to Emrakul mana with Heritage/Nettle too. There's your #1 staple right there. And even if they ban Hypergenesis and Cloudpost (or Emrakul himself), there's still Dredge, Hive Mind, Persist and any other number of currently tier 2 combos that are still better than everything else.

Also, if you're the speculating type, Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon are good values. The format is very heavy on non-basics, moreso than Legacy (at least in Legacy Fish and Goblins combine to make up at least a quarter of the field at almost any major tournament). Also, Chalice of the Void, as it's in every sideboard for every deck.

[trivial_matters]

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. I was aware that combo decks are the dominant force, but I didn't think it was so one-sided. Do you think it will stay that way, i.e. how likely is that there'll be a bunch of bannings and would these even be able to shift the focus away from combo?

[KevinTrudeau]

If Modern is this combo-centric, I can't see it lasting very long without a slew of bannings; Wizards vehemently opposes combo, and I can't see an Elves-Hypergenesis-Cloudpost metagame triangle being very fun for long. Modern will probably just be ignored like old and new Extended were unless some major changes occur. I think this really highlights Force of Will's importance in keeping Legacy a healthy format.

[GGoober]

Ban Hypergensis, unban GGT, easy. Can't see why GGT is there in the first place and Hypergenesis isn't there.

Also, Shocks won't be $50 a piece. You can bet they are reprinting shocks, either in Commander sets, promotions pack, Standard once the fetchlands rotate out of Standard.

[dahcmai]

Or maybe reprint shocks in the Ravnica return block right after Innistrad even? Kind of almost have to expect that one coming, though it might not happen. It does seem awful convenient having that block coming up though. I fully expect Force of Will to make it's triumphant return to Standard also very soon to compliment the hate against combo. That or make a few more cards that hate on combo a little more. I seriously doubt they would let Hypergenesis have a fair shake for long.

Wizards works quite a bit in advance and you only have to look and see what's going on to see plans down the road. I'm pretty convinced that Modern is the excuse to have a pro level format that's eternal. I also think it's going to get pushed in force by the end of next year more than people think. It's an elegant solution to the reserve list really. I see no reason why they wouldn't want that format to succeed.

[ivanpei]

It's really hard to beat combo without force. I find that black is the premier anti combo colour. Thoughtseize is such a boss, along with duress etc. Mana leaks/ misstep / snare are nowhere as good. I much prefer playing junk over bant in modern because of this.

[ktkenshinx]

Having played a lot of Modern and Overextended since both formats were announced, I can say with great safety that Hypergenesis is going to be on the banlist. LSV, Wizard's personal Oracle of Delphi, said the deck was too good, and he's about the only player that Wizards consistently listens to. With Hypergenesis on the banlist, their new eternal format will not devolve into stupidity.

That does leave a few decks on the top. Combo Elves is a beast, but it does suffer against maindeck Mental Misstep, Thoughtseize, and spot removal. Twelvepost is also quite powerful, but it commits too many slots to accelerating to have much of an anti-control game. The field is pretty open after that (at least in these early months), and I really have to doubt anyone who claims they have solved the metagame. A lot of people have been saying "Lawl, [insert deck/card here] is overpowered. I play and GG", but there has not been any evidence to support that. The only deck that does fall into that category, and card for that matter, is Elves/Glimpse of Nature. This card might be banned, just because of the combo potential of that deck. While there are certainly things that can keep Glimpse in check, it might be better if it were just out of the format.

But all of that said, Modern (regardless of the cutoff) is going to have a lot of diversity. Here is a brief list of viable decks that could take a tier 1 position:

Dredge
Dragonstorm
Scapeshift
Affinity (with revised bannings)
UW Stoneforge
Living End
Enduring Ideal
Eva Green
Merfolk
Goblins
Twelvepost
Faeries
Zoo
Pyromancer's Ascension
Urzatron
Goblins
Bant

A cutoff that was earlier than Mirrodin would include a lot more decks (Astral Slide, Domain, Scepter Chant, Madness, Reanimator, etc.), but even at Mirrodin there would still be a good amount of diversity.

-ktkenshinx-

[ivanpei]

Is tron any good at all? I thought the consensus was the 12post is better? I would love to play tron, I've got a set of Japanese Black Border Tron (one of each picture) and I am dying to use them. Pm me a good list? Thanks! Oh and I'm working on a URW Hive mind list for Modern. White for Silence and Idylic tutor and Red for SSG, Rite of Flame and Seething Song. Between Silence and Pact of Negation, the deck is really strong. Idylic tutor is also a really good tutor. Any ideas for Idylic tutor targets other than Hive Mind?

[SpikeyMikey]

Having played against Hive Mind a few weeks ago, I got the feeling the deck was really a tier 2 at best. It commits a lot to the combo without being any faster than Hyper or Elves and it's more reliant on a single 4-of than either of those decks.

Kenshin: 12Post, built correctly, beats just about everything. I've lost to Restore Balance(twice), Elves and once to overconfidence against a burn deck (ridiculous for a deck with 4 Glimmerposts and 3 Wurmcoils >.<). I'd be more than happy to throw it against any gauntlet you want and would expect to come out 70% or better. And I think if I tweaked my board a little, I could fix that Restore Balance matchup, I just don't expect people to play it enough to have to worry about it. All in Red can also fuck this deck up because of 5-8 Moon effects, but I do run a number of basic Forests and a 2/2 split of Beast Within main/board. It's not enough where I'd call it favorable, but I can pull some games out. I just haven't actually played anyone using AiR when I was piloting Post.

[thoren_]

I just want this format to be announced already. I don't mean confirmed, like it was at Comic Con. I mean all the details, like a firm ban list and if it's going to replace Extended, etc. The price jump on the Ravnica Shocklands recently is ridiculous. And it's painfully obvious it's not due only to people buying playsets. Straight up hoarding in anticipation of the public announcement of the format's details.

Once it's announced, people have played a few tournaments, than at least people will begin to unload their hoarded copies, the playsets of lands that see less play, the playsets of lands they won't use, etc. Then the price will stabilize with a market more flooded.

Ughhh...I'm really regretting not buying playsets of all the blue Ravnica shocklands back when Extended rotated and they all dropped. Frank N Son's in the City of Industry, CA had playsets of any of the lands for $20 (that's $5 per a card!). What a deal considering they would be used at least in EDH!

[dahcmai]

The funny thing is if they decided to reprint them, there's a lot of people out there going to lose a ton of cash on those. They are good in a lot of stuff, but a full reprint would drive the value down hard. Ravnica isn't that old of a set to have a severely limited supply. Plus, a ton of that one was bought, there's plenty.

[Admiral_Arzar]

H
Dredge
Dragonstorm
Scapeshift
Affinity (with revised bannings)
UW Stoneforge
Living End
Enduring Ideal
Eva Green
Merfolk
Goblins
Twelvepost
Faeries
Zoo
Pyromancer's Ascension
Urzatron
Bant



Fuck all these multicolor decks, I'm playing All-In Red. Speaking of which, unban Chrome Mox already, it's not like the card was degenerate in old extended at all (which is basically modern).


It's really hard to beat combo without force. I find that black is the premier anti combo colour. Thoughtseize is such a boss, along with duress etc. Mana leaks/ misstep / snare are nowhere as good.

That's because (unlike Legacy) blue isn't retarded OP in modern. Just like old extended, black cards and red cards (Turn 1 Blood Moon, anyone?) are how you beat combo. And Chalice, can't forget that. Also, Spell Pierce. That card is basically the best blue card against combo in modern.

[thoren_]

The funny thing is if they decided to reprint them, there's a lot of people out there going to lose a ton of cash on those. They are good in a lot of stuff, but a full reprint would drive the value down hard. Ravnica isn't that old of a set to have a severely limited supply. Plus, a ton of that one was bought, there's plenty.

I already understand that, but WOTC has always had the policy that they don't care about the secondary market. The Reserved List was a mistake and the . Not only would the Ravnica shocks contribute to a well selling set in the near future, but price drops similar to the kind you have already mentioned have happened plenty of times over Magic's history.

Remember when Extended changed to double Standard last year? Plenty of people still had their shocklands and they plummeted. Lots of cards have plummeted in price with Standard rotations, Extended rotations, changes to the ban list, reprints (Nantuko Shade, Chain Lightning, Berserk, etc), etc.

In addition to all of what I've mentioned thusfar, WOTC have already stated they are able to and probably will reprint Ravnica shocklands. They mentioned this around Ravnica's release, explaining how that's why the shocklands purposely don't have names specific to the Ravnica plane.

Lastly, this is a card game, first and foremost. While it's fun, and potentially lucrative, to speculate on what cards will gain you value with a proper timely investment, WOTC doesn't value protecting everyone's investment before all else. The Reserved List is the one exception, given the legal ramifications and how they would be breaking a promise long held since the days of Chronicles. With the Ravnica shocklands, this is simply not the case, as they never made a promise or a claim that they wouldn't be reprinted.

[dahcmai]

Odd thing is that some cards actually are going up by hitting standard again like they used to do in the old days. I noticed Solemn Simulacrum is higher than it ever was while it was in standard. At least it seems like it. Don't remember really that well as I didn't like standard during Affinity and was off playing Vintage.

I really hope Modern turns into what Extended should have been and Legacy stays around also. That would be nice to have another format to complement the others. Extended was always the poor stepchild. We need a good in-between format and I kind of like the idea of this one, though I think I would prefer Overextended as the officially supported one. I like Masques a lot, sad, but true.

[phonics]

With shocklands as they are without reprints are going to be just like duals in legacy, one of the major restraints on people who want to play multi color decks. I was shocked (lol) to see that hallowed fountain was a 35$ card, and the inauguration of modern is still a ways away. Reprinting causing people to lose money is fine I think, wizards already commented on the reprintability of shocks and the card value that would be lost was mostly gained via speculation in the first place (since gencon). Personally I would like them to be ~10$ cards like fetches in standard.