Dread return and targets

[OurSerratedDust]

Let's say I am playing the following list:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Basalt Monolith
1 Blasting Station
4 Mesmeric Orb

Creatures
3 Narcomoeba

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Mental Misstep

Legendary Artifact Creatures
1 Sharuum the Hegemon

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sorceries
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island



I have 3 Narcomoeba in play at this point, and the Mesmeric Orb + Basalt Monolith combo online. I'm flipping and flipping until I see a Dread Return and Sharuum in my graveyard. Unfortunately, I don't have the Blasting Station in my graveyard yet.

Now my question is, is the following legal?

"Put Dread Return on the stack targeting Sharuum and respond by milling myself until I hit Emrakul, shuffle up and continue milling until I have both Sharuum and Blasting Station in the yard."

Dread return would have targeted Sharuum, but the card got shuffled back into my library and milled a couple of times. In the end, it is the same card in the same zone, but would Dread Return fizzle?

Thanks guys!

[cdr]

Dread return would have targeted Sharuum, but the card got shuffled back into my library and milled a couple of times. In the end, it is the same card in the same zone, but would Dread Return fizzle?


When cards change zones, they become new cards. The target of Dread Return is long gone.


mill myself until I hit Emrakul, shuffle up and continue milling until I have both Sharuum and Blasting Station in the yard."

This isn't legal, either. You can't shortcut effects that shuffle your graveyard into your library (like eldrazi or Gaea's Blessing) to a predetermined endpoint.

You could respond to the Emrakul trigger by continuing to mill, but you'd need some sort of instant-speed reanimation effect.

[Nihil Credo]

Also, you need two Sharuums to combo with Blasting Station. A single Sharuum can't return itself to play over and over.

[OurSerratedDust]

Nice! Thanks for the reply, cdr.


Also, you need two Sharuums to combo with Blasting Station. A single Sharuum can't return itself to play over and over.

The combo in this case is to use your Narcomoebas to deal three, then mill them again and again because of Emrakul in your deck.

Patrick Chapin posted an article on SCG about this deck and how it works. In my minimal testing, I have a feeling that the amount of shuffling and milling you have to do could border on slow play, unfortunately.

Once you have 3 Narcomoeba in play (easy enough), you then need to mill Sharuum and Dread Return and Blasting Station BEFORE Emrakul. It usually takes four tries to nail it, but sometimes it takes far longer. One took me 18 tries, with 46 cards in my deck.

EDIT: I assume the same thing applies for Sharuum's triggered ability? I can't just put that on the stack and then mill/shuffle until I find the Blasting Station, correct?

[cdr]

EDIT: I assume the same thing applies for Sharuum's triggered ability? I can't just put that on the stack and then mill/shuffle until I find the Blasting Station, correct?

Sharuum's ability is targeted. Targets are chosen when abilities go on the stack.

[OurSerratedDust]

Just at a quick glance, do you guys think this type of deck could be called on either Slow play or Stalling?

To quote an article on wizards:

"Slow Play: Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in slow play.

Stalling: A player intentionally plays slowly in order to take advantage of the time limit."

Technically, this wouldn't do either. It takes an average of 4 cycles to complete the kill, but sometimes more. If this is either, would it be legal if I was say, casting a Cabal Therapy once in a while during the sequence?

Thanks again.

[cdr]

Just at a quick glance, do you guys think this type of deck could be called on either Slow play or Stalling?

To quote an article on wizards:

"Slow Play: Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in slow play.

Stalling: A player intentionally plays slowly in order to take advantage of the time limit."

Technically, this wouldn't do either. It takes an average of 4 cycles to complete the kill, but sometimes more. If this is either, would it be legal if I was say, casting a Cabal Therapy once in a while during the sequence?

Thanks again.

Stalling is intentionally attempting to take advantage of the clock. I assume you are not doing that.

If you're taking more than 30 seconds or so to mill, you're probably Slow Playing. That's been a longstanding problem with decks like this (or decks that win by milling when their opponents have shuffle effects). Casting a Cabal Therapy just to attempt to not make it Slow Play doesn't really work.