List of answers to SFM-based decks

[GGoober]

So, this is my sincere attempt to reminding the Source/Legacy community in general that SFM-based decks have shown recent success, but it is my honest opinion that part of the success wasn't attributed to the unstoppable power-level of SFM in the format. Don't get me wrong, I think SFM-based strategy is a very strong strategy in Legacy, primarily skewing advantage for mid-ranged decks. Batterskull is a nice addition, along with many commonly played equipments: SoFS/Jitte and some other rising choices: SoBM/SoFF

It is my view that since we only have a ton of SFM decks/threads encouraging people to try out SFM.deck, it is not surprising that the popularity of SFM-based decks are also contributing itself to more frequent results in tournaments. I want to post this thread so we can remind ourselves that our whinings about Lackey/Counterbalance/Top as being 'too-powerful' have all met up with solutions. It is the community's choice to spread the other side of the news, that SFM strategy is a strong one, but actually a fairly easy one to stop.

Here's a list that I have off the top of my head:

Pin-point removal (works best when they fetch Batterskull)
StP
Path
Bolt
Lavamancer
Ghastly Demise
Innocent Blood
Smother
GFTT
Etc
Punishing Fire (recurring removal and great against non GW mystic-based decks e.g. Team Italia or BWx SFM)


Discard/Counters (surprisingly, Discard is a less obvious out to SFM. It gives them a Squire with the ability to cheat equipments that they subsequently draw but it discards the initial tutoring of the equipment)
Thoughtseize (also nabs SFM before it comes to play)
Inquisition of Kozilek (Also nabs SFM before it comes to play)
Duress (nabs equipment, usually you don't want to board this in unless it's Esper Stoneblade lists playing just ~8 creatures)
counterspell
Stifle/Trickbind (these are great against SFM)

[B]Artifact Removal
Krosan Grip (Guys, it's time to bring this baby back, there's no counterbalance, but there's the Batterskull that people always whine for/against, let's just put this to an end, split second style)
Ancient Grudge (it doesn't necessarily remove Batterskull if they play around it, but you get so much tempo out of this card by forcing them to keep mana open in fear of losing Batterskull that the tempo gained from them being stupid is enough to win games)
Pithing Needle (not ideal but stops Mystics or the equipment itself)


Strategies:
SFM decks tend to fall under the mid-range decks. It's a tremendously powerful card-advantage strategy that wins games if it connects. To beat such a strategy, you really need to focus on countering/stopping SFM's ability by counters/discard/stifles/removal. The big mistake is assuming you can let a SFM slip in and be fine even if they get the equipment online. The damage is really done when the equipment is in play, because every threat they play is much better than the origianl creature they ran. Goyfs become assymetric with Equipments, equipments with the relevant pro colors will now win games, Jitte wins games, aggro loses to Batterskull etc.

The goal is to stop the initial Mystic and I think many people still underestimate and let the SFM ability slip through, only to fight an uphill battle. The other solution is to pack a ton of removal, while having the ability to play fast threats, and just out tempo them (this works in Tempo.dec). If you feel you can just keep them tempo'd for 2-4 turns when the SFM player is desperately trying to equip creatures, this is a good strategy to take (this is where Grudge is great against SFM-equipments even if the Batterskull player can play around it, it forces them to stop playing threats and be overly focused on protecting their Batterskull).

I'm sure there's a lot more advice, so please chime in. The goal of the thread isn't for us to troll each other, but to increase awareness of ANTI-SFM strategies in a sea of pro-SFM articles/threads.

Once again, we all thought we couldn't beat Lackey, Countertop, Natural Order, Show and Tell. Let's work together and remind ourselves how foolish we were. People just need to be reminded there's a ton of good decks in Legacy, a ton of good cards, nothing is truly broken (except Flash and maybe Survival)

[ThoSha]

That was highly enlightening.
I agree on Krosan Grip a lot if you draw it, but other hate might find place as well.
I already posted in the burn thread that Sudden Shock has some serious impact on this metagame too, it might be considered in some decks as uncounterable SFM/Merfolk Lord removal.

Great work, thumbs up! Dont let those stupid SFM decks rape Legacy.

[gottfrid]

It is usually very obvious when they are going to activate SFM. I find that a lot of times vendilion clique is really good since you just wait for them to activate and clique away their equipment in response. This, of course works better the fewer equipment they have in the deck since they could draw into a new one.

[wcm8]

A preemptive Null Rod makes all of their equipment useless (you still need to find removal for the germ token though). Null Rod also hoses another DTB, painter stone.

[Tammit67]

If you opponent is going to waste time setting something up, just go fucking kill them.

Day[J] made me do it.

[TkDodo]

Because I think it's amazing how many people don't know it (at least that's what I found out), here is an "answer" to any sword of A and B:
Painter's Servant turns them all off.
They play SFM for Sword of Fire and Ice, I play Painter naming blue. They bring the sword in and equip the mystic, which works, but now when the protection is granted, the sword falls off as a SBE because the creature has protection from the sword, because it is blue itself. So they wasted two turns to get out a useless equipment. Really funny how often it works.

[Koby]

Answering the equipment itself:
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Damping Matrix (bonus for stopping SFM, KotR, and QPM too)
Energy Flux (weak)

Answering the strategy:
Suppression Field

Answers to Living Weapon:
Reality Ripple

Tempo-based solutions:
Stifle
bounce

Beating the Strategy in general:
Play Storm combo
Play Hivemind combo
Play Elves combo (bonus for having Viridian Shaman + Wirewood Symbiote)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral's Disk
Oblivion Stone
Akroma's Vengeance
Austere Command
Planar Cleansing
(Depending on rest of strategy)
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb
Punishment

(The last I've been playing a bit recently and it's actually shockingly good.)

But seriously, why does no one play sweepers anymore even in Landstill.

[Shawon]

I think Pox effects are particularly useful against Mystic. Kills Mystic, and cuts a land to make it harder to cast that Equipment.

[hyc8028]

You guys forgot Manriki-Gusari, which can be fetch to answer opponent equipment.

[Koby]

You guys forgot Manriki-Gusari, which can be fetch to answer opponent equipment.

Mostly because you're already playing SFM to be able to use it properly. ^_^

[bruizar]

The answer I like best is punishing fire as it deals with mystic and a resolve d batterskull

[John Cox]

Bant also has alot at it's disposal, qasali pridemage and aven mindcensor are huge.

[dahcmai]

I'm personally starting to wonder about this deck since I have been playing my own for a bit and it's just ending up looking like Legacy Caw Blade again with Vendellion Clique taking the spot of Hawks. This deck has performed so well so far it's making me think it might be overly good. I demolished two goblins decks today with a control deck without bothering to board. That's kind of scary.

[Phoenix Ignition]

If you opponent is going to waste time setting something up, just go fucking kill them.

Day[J] made me do it.

=D

I love this strategy. It not only works in SC2, it works in so many other games.

If the opponent is doing really annoying shit and spending all their time/resources setting stuff up JUST GO FUCKING KILL THEM. Combo, zoo, what have you, if someone is playing for the mid/late game just play to kill before their strategy takes hold.

Also hitting the manabase is really good against most equipment decks.

[Tao]

*loves Day9 wholeheartedly
But killing them instead of dealing with SFM is not going to work if SFM searched for Batterskull.

[Mantis]

Every deck has answers to Batterskull. Goblins has Tin Street, Merfolk has counters and Dismember, Zoo has burn, Qasali and Path, Landstill has StP, Jace and counters, Storm can just go fucking kill them etc. etc.

Even though SFM might be in the best decks, I don't really see how its a problem. It reminds me of Tarmogoyf, the best deck played him but it was never a big problem.

[GGoober]

I forgot this card: Submerge. Wow just wow, only works against GWx builds (the popular ones these days).

[Finn]

Jack, I think you ought to play Austere Command, Planar Cleansing, and Akroma's Vengeance. The rest of us like to actually cast our spells.

Spell Snare has always worked well against it. And since 2 is the new 1 in Legacy cmc, it is a good spell anyway.

Orim's Thunder does a nice job of removing the card advantage of Mystic.

Phyrexian Revoker is insanely good right now. This is just one more application in which it is particularly fun - especially if you have an Aether Vial.

Then there is Viashino Heretic. Good times.

Submerge is an idea that borders on trolling especially when we are open to Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares. Pox is nearly as bad. Well, actually Pox is a very bad card played in very bad decks. But in this case, it is only nearly as bad as Submerge.

[Tombstalker]

Ive come to learn SFM + BS is a pain in the ass pretty often even if you pack answers for it. That aside Im currently enjoying using phyrexian metamorph against it. make my own BS and if that fails just return it to my hand and cast it as something else :)

[Iare]

I like the just fucking kill them plan, but I have taken to running Duergar Hedge-Mage in the slot I previously ran Volcanic Fallout in. It has more and more targets everyday and even beats for 2 or chump blocks something.


* If bitterblosom/back to basics/counterbalance/chalice/vedelkan shackles/cranial plating weren't such pains in the ass I would just go with the fucking kill them plan since it really is simply the best answer.

[dahcmai]

I like the idea of Orim's Thunder to deal with that guy. I'll have to try that out in my decks than can run WR. Though right now I'm just playing mystic myself.

[Dark Ritual]

Stifle the EtB trigger of mystic. Kill mystic. Spell snare mystic. Just fucking kill them (love this one). Play a bigger dork. Really, stoneforge might be all the rage until people adapt but SFM fetching batterskull is a play I don't really care about since SFM lacks haste. And one card that is undervalued right now is qasali pridemage. Blows up batterskull or whatever equipment they fetched leaving them with a squire with a cute vial ability.

Duergar Hedge-Mage is pretty techy I like it.

K grip people. I never understand why people take this out of their SB. In almost every Gxx deck I play I run at least 2 k grip's because the card is phenomenal. Uncounterable? Sweet. Kill batterskull? Yeah, this is also sweet. Going turn 2 goyf into turn 3 k grip for their batterskull is generally GG's especially on the play.

[majikal]

I wasn't aware that Stoneforge Mystic was so dominant that a list of answers was required.

Just go fucking kill them.

[Gui]

Best answer to SFM is packing artifact hate, specially MD, but people don't do that, proven by Survival of the Fittest (I know it's an enchantment, but you get what I mean, removals to these are similar). People deny running a removal that doesn't attack every deck in the format...

... wierd enough, not every deck in the format packs creatures, and people run removal for these. xD

[Finn]

Krosan Grip, Pridemage, etc all have the same problem. You 2-1 yourself. It is not the worst thing, considering Mystics are unimpressive alone. But I have a second equipment in my hand often enough to make it matter.

[clavio]

What about shadow of doubt? It has other obvious applications beyond stopping SFM searching.

[ivanpei]

No love for Natures Claim? That card is amazingly versatile. Oh and I've been playing alot of BUG Still, that deck is a beast against Stoneforge decks. Drop deed, oh wait, I wipe your board and you lose. Also I have more Jaces/Countermagic. Awesome. Deed is really really good right now. It destroys most Aggro Control decks in the format.

Another way obviously is to just win. Painterstone is my combo deck of choice at the moment. Storm can play through missteps, but it's rough. I don't think NO RUG or NO Bant have alot of problems against Stoneforge decks. Clique is really good at stripping their hand and a quick Hydra can race equipment well (especially along with evasive cliques/ Exalted Hydra).

Stoneforge-Equip is strong, but it's not format warping and very beatable. Even zoo has a good time against stoneforge decks thanks to Pridemage, Lavamancer and tons of removal. I don't see Batterskull ever getting dropped against zoo very often. Neither is equipment going to be successfully equipped against all that removal.

[clavio]

Tower of the Magistrate makes equipment fall off

[GreenHornet]

Spell Snare has always worked well against it. And since 2 is the new 1 in Legacy cmc, it is a good spell anyway.
QFT
it prevents SFM from ever being able to search.
I actually play a SFM deck and one of the most unfavorable match ups I played against was running Torpor Orb with dreadnought.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's not say things we can't take back.

Alright, fine,

itt: Finn thinks that sweepers (that have actually seen competitive play in Legacy before) are trash and Orim's Thunder is the nut high. In other news this thread is not an academy exercise and I suspect people want answers to Stoneforge Mystic that aren't necessarily terrible against everything else in Legacy.

[majikal]

Hey, do you guys remember when people used to play Krosan Grip to get rid of Counterbalance? If only there were a similar, uncounterable spell that destroyed an artifact or enchantment that we could use to deal with Batterskull...

[Koby]

Animating the equipment will force it to fall off the creature it's attached to.


Karn, Silver Golem
March of the Machines
Karn's Touch

[Mr. Safety]

Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral's Disk
Oblivion Stone
Akroma's Vengeance
Austere Command
Planar Cleansing
(Depending on rest of strategy)
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb
Punishment

(The last I've been playing a bit recently and it's actually shockingly good.)

But seriously, why does no one play sweepers anymore even in Landstill.

I forgot how good Crime/Punishment could be. For b/g, you can have an answer to germ tokens, Empty the Warrens tokens (if your meta has TES/Belcher). Ratchet Bomb does the same, but isn't as flexible at hitting stuff more than 0-cmc.

Don't forget good 'ol Wrath of God and Damnation, too.

EDIT: if SFM gets too prevalent, it will create an opportunity for combo to take advantage of a lower density of blue decks.

[Zach Tartell]

I feel like it's necessary to bring up that Phasing doesn't hurt Batterskull at all. If you hit the creature it comes back in with the equipment on it. If you hit the equipment it just gets a new germ when it comes back.

[Hopo]

I feel like it's necessary to bring up that Phasing doesn't hurt Batterskull at all. If you hit the creature it comes back in with the equipment on it. If you hit the equipment it just gets a new germ when it comes back.

If the creature happens to be token, the rules of the game prevent Batterskull from phasing back in. So Batterskull can be taken care of by phasing out the germ token, but I doubt anyone will ever do that.

[Malchar]

I've been using sword of light and shadow to pretty good effect against stoneforge mystic. You can swing past the mystic itself and any germ tokens, or you can block a batterskull and deny them lifegain. Also, your creature is safe from the most common colors of removal.

[muscleb]

In my local meta, Stoneforge is everywhere. I am going to try Putrefy in my junk list main. Many times I had Maelstrom Pulse in my hand and he vialed in the Batterskull at the endstep and just kept 3 mana open while beating.

How do I link cards btw?

[Star|Scream]

I've been using sword of light and shadow to pretty good effect against stoneforge mystic. You can swing past the mystic itself and any germ tokens, or you can block a batterskull and deny them lifegain. Also, your creature is safe from the most common colors of removal.

A good way to get soL&S into play is to vial it in with SFM

[Iron Buddha]

What is the best Cunning Wish answer in white or blue?

[Hanni]

Dismantling Blow is pretty sexy as a Cunning Wish target...

[from Cairo]

What is the best Cunning Wish answer in white or blue?

Guess it depends on what aspect of SFM-based decks you're trying to address.

For a wish board I'd try to look to cards with decent application outside of SFM-based decks. I would think to deal with SFM the creature - Spell Snare, PtE, Stifle; to deal with Batterskull - Disenchant, Repeal maybe at the Germ for a tempo gain.

Cunning Wish is probably not the best way to address SFM-Based decks because it's 3 mana just to gain access to whatever answer you're coming up with, it's going to be a beating tempo-wise. I'd think just MDing more 1-2cc solutions would be more profitable than utilizing a wish board.

[AllIsDust]

Damping Matrix is a pretty decent answer.

[Muradin]

Trygon Predator is underplayed at the moment. It used to be good against Counterbalance and now its good against Stoneforge Mystic as well.

Null Rod is also fine if you don't hurt yourself with it. I'd run it for example in Zoo as its good against Equipment, Combo, MUD and many other less popular decks like Affinity or Painter as well.

[Iron Buddha]

Blue based SFM decks are definitely what I fear most (So Mental Misstep and FoW are an issue). Green based SFM decks are actually rather easy with U/W control, since I play an old school list with 3 Wrath of God, 1 Humility, 3 EE, 3 SDT, etc.

PtE is already in my SB as a wish-target, Spell Snare and Stifle are not, but I could fit them in easily.

Disenchant and Repeal are cheaper than Dismantling Blow, but they are probably not faster than Dismantling Blow, as you have to pass your turn anyways (Wish is indeed a bit cost-intensive).

While you're right that Cunning Wish is rather slow, SFM decks, especially the blue based ones, are by nature control decks. That's why I think Cunning Wish could be really an excellent choice.