[SCD] Sundial of the Infinite

[JCLe]

Sundial of the Infinite :2:
Artifact
:1:T : End the turn. Activate this ability only during your turn.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120724&d=1309406543

Get to skip payments for pacts, flicker stuff out forever, I don't know what else could be relevant yet.

/e Yet another way for dreadnought to be cheated in I guess

Fun card for sure, some hate from wizards against the ''newer'' combo deck, always funny.

[DrJones]

That card does a lot of things that are not apparent at first sight.

[Lim-Dul]

is it possible to stop the hive mind combe with it? by stopping my turn in response to the unpayabel upkeep-cost?

[(nameless one)]

That card does a lot of things that are not apparent at first sight.

Care to give us insights?

[JCLe]

is it possible to stop the hive mind combe with it? by stopping my turn in response to the unpayabel upkeep-cost?

Yes, as mentionned in post #1.

Everything on the stack goes bye bye

[android]

OMG, Stax.

Just had to get in here and say that before someone else. I don't play stax btw.

[pcccp]

Some other cool cards that work with Sundial:

- Evoke creatures
- Parallax Wave / Tide
- Phyrexian Dreadnought / Hunted Horror
- Glacial Chasm
- Astral Slide
- Solitary Confinement

[Kich867]

I mentioned this in the previous thread:
Isochron Scepter
Final Fortune

For an infinite turn combo. You imprint Final Fortune, you use it, you get your extra turn, during that extra turn use it again, with the "you lose the game" trigger on the stack, end your turn.

[Richard Cheese]

So this skips the End Step completely? What about discarding if you have 8+ cards in hand?

[Shawon]

part of reminder text on "end the turn" effects: "... Discard down to your maximum hand size."

[whienot]

OMG, Stax.

It is actually amusing that you can keep ramping Smokestack without sacrificing anything. Mill ftw?

[rufus]

- Evoke creatures
Also:
ETB Cost creatures - Phyrexian Dreadnought,Hunted Horror and friends.
Unearth Creatures
Vanishing cards
Creatures with champion
Parallax Nexus works too.
The Pact cycle.
Glacial Chasm
Ancestral Knowledge, or Mystic Remora?
, and the sacrifice/return land cycles (e.g. Lairs), Thawing Glaciers

If you can get it on line, the synergy with Smokestack is huge.

[4eak]

While you can use the card to bypass drawbacks of certain cards or break the symmetry of others, the problem is that combo pieces, just by themselves, are pretty weak. If you don't get a game ending combo out of it (like Painter/Grindstone), then the combo pieces need to be viable standalone cards.

At least in most cases, I don't see this card or the cards which combo with it having major standalone power. A lot of the cards that combo nicely with it plainly suck when Sundial isn't in play. Contrast this to something like CB-Top:

Counterbalance is still acceptable without Top (especially in certain matchups that can't afford CB to be in play at all), and Jace, Brainstorm, Ponder and blind CB actually can actually have a serious effect on the game without Top; Top is obviously good even without CB in play.

I'm betting on this Sundial being played more like Painter/Grindstone rather than CB/Top in this regard. To be clear about the analogy, that doesn't mean that Sundial won't be used to create a prison lock of some sort (breaking the symmetry of prison cards seems a reasonable abuse of Sundial), but I think we're looking for hardlocks here (gamewinning ones), not soft ones like CB/Top.

That said, I should add the caveat that this effect is pretty darn unique, and perhaps I'm missing very serious lines of play. Obviously, we can Timestop a Vial/Fetch/Removal, which can be good, but I think these can usually play around Sundial too effectively. It still might just be a niche combo card.

I'd believe a non-game winning play like Dreadnought if there were actually Dreadnoughts 5-8, but Hunted Horror blows. We have plenty of ways to bypass the CiTP Drawbacks, just not enough cards like Dreadnought that are worth the effort.


peace,
4eak

[cdr]

So this skips the End Step completely? What about discarding if you have 8+ cards in hand?

The End Step is skipped, but not the Cleanup Step (which is where you discard).

[Kich867]

I think the only "competitive" way to play the deck would be with a Scepter/Sundial combo for infinite turns alongside some big creature or something. The moment you land scepter with Final Fortune on it and sundial, if you can land the free turn once, if I'm not mistaken you can tell your opponent: "If it's alright with you, I'll just draw and play cards as they come off the top of my deck." to skip having to reexplain the entire process every free turn--just leave 3 lands tapped and explain that you'll be repeating the final fortune > sundial maneuver every turn.

If they can't answer the combo somehow, you can just skip their turn indefinitely and play like 15 lands + emrakul or something and then win. Or more appropriately, as soon as it starts the opponent should just scoop unless they feel they can actually stop it somehow with what they have left.

(I only read Sundial in the name, and just noticed that the whole name is hilariously on-point haha.)

[Nihil Credo]

Three-card combo aren't competitive (unless there are major redundancies / the pieces are really good on their own, and neither is the case here).

[Technics]

If this came out like 6 years ago, it would be THE answer to Solidarity...

:-P

[4eak]

**Response to Sundial...I keep comboing you out.

Admittedly, it would win some games where the Solidarity player didn't have the resources to keep comboing through a well timed Sundial activation. Trinisphere seems better though.


peace,
4eak

[dahcmai]

You know I went through the list of things that you can do with it and I have to admit as excited as I was to read this card, I can't think of a single thing I am all that impressed with doing. Evoke, Smokestack, Skullcap, Final Fortune etc., and a plethora of others are all interesting, but none is something I would instantly run to build a deck over.

It has an interesting effect in standard in that Boros deck with all the landfall critters. They stay large. That's pretty funny.

You can make Mercadian Atlas suck even more than it does already. lol

All in all, I want a set for laughs, but I don't see a single broken good use oddly enough and I was scouring for one. That just seems wrong. surely there's something worthwhile. Wizards must have went to great lengths to make sure there wasn't anything too busted though. That casting cost is easily abused in Vintage alone.

The best thing I could come up with was using multiple Final Fortune effects with Angel's Grace, Enlightened, Isochron, and this to create a long pseudo-time walk string that could start up around third turn and keep going fairly well. Cute but not really good. Serious problem with counter magic obviously.

This would be amazing if Time Vault was still in Legacy with that errata it used to have. I could chain it all day long in that case.

[Star|Scream]

I don't know if the card can be broken or not. I'll leave that to someone else who's more experienced with that sort of thing.

However, I do believe this card has potential in a more defensive capacity. We just need to come up with more things that your opponent likes to do during your turn...

EdiT: You can effectively wasteland a fetch if you time it right. Plus you might get a -1 bonus if your opponent (somehow) doesn't see it coming. You can also bait them to crack a fetch for brainstorm, and then just end the turn.

I don't know how viable this stuff is, just ideas...

[phonics]

You know I went through the list of things that you can do with it and I have to admit as excited as I was to read this card, I can't think of a single thing I am all that impressed with doing. Evoke, Smokestack, Skullcap, Final Fortune etc., and a plethora of others are all interesting, but none is something I would instantly run to build a deck over.

It has an interesting effect in standard in that Boros deck with all the landfall critters. They stay large. That's pretty funny.

You can make Mercadian Atlas suck even more than it does already. lol

All in all, I want a set for laughs, but I don't see a single broken good use oddly enough and I was scouring for one. That just seems wrong. surely there's something worthwhile. Wizards must have went to great lengths to make sure there wasn't anything too busted though. That casting cost is easily abused in Vintage alone.

The best thing I could come up with was using multiple Final Fortune effects with Angel's Grace, Enlightened, Isochron, and this to create a long pseudo-time walk string that could start up around third turn and keep going fairly well. Cute but not really good. Serious problem with counter magic obviously.

This would be amazing if Time Vault was still in Legacy with that errata it used to have. I could chain it all day long in that case.

Wouldn't the pump effect just ware off on your opponents end step then?

[majikal]

It's obviously a push for non-blue Dreadnought decks.

[Ecoris]

It has an interesting effect in standard in that Boros deck with all the landfall critters. They stay large. That's pretty funny. No they don't. It's even in the reminder text.


This would be amazing if Time Vault was still in Legacy with that errata it used to have. I could chain it all day long in that case. Which of the wordings are you referring to?

Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
Skip your next turn: Untap Time Vault and put a time counter on it.
{T}, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability only if there is a time counter on Time Vault.


Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault and put a time counter on it.
{T}, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability only if there is a time counter on Time Vault.


Time Vault comes into play tapped.
If Time Vault would become untapped, instead choose one - untap Time Vault and you skip your next turn; or Time Vault remains tapped.
{T}: Take an extra turn after this one.


Time Vault enters the battlefield tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.
{T}: Take an extra turn after this one.

[Noman Peopled]

OMG, Stax.

Just had to get in here and say that before someone else. I don't play stax btw.
It's cute with Stax's upkeep effects but that's about it. The deck is designed to be able to pay the upkeep costs. Sometimes it would indeed like to skip payment (say, not enough Smokestack fodder), but it won't like a card that does almost nothing beside saving you from Smokestack.

[bruizar]

It's cute with Stax's upkeep effects but that's about it. The deck is designed to be able to pay the upkeep costs. Sometimes it would indeed like to skip payment (say, not enough Smokestack fodder), but it won't like a card that does almost nothing beside saving you from Smokestack.

QFT. Buy this card and get burnt.

[bruizar]

EdiT: You can effectively wasteland a fetch if you time it right. Plus you might get a -1 bonus if your opponent (somehow) doesn't see it coming. You can also bait them to crack a fetch for brainstorm, and then just end the turn.

I don't know how viable this stuff is, just ideas...

You can effectively wasteland a fetch if your opponent is stupid.

[soiber2000]

It's cute with Stax's upkeep effects but that's about it. The deck is designed to be able to pay the upkeep costs. Sometimes it would indeed like to skip payment (say, not enough Smokestack fodder), but it won't like a card that does almost nothing beside saving you from Smokestack.

I just want to point out that if you can control more or less your opponent and you have smokestack and deal in play, you can just up stax and end the turn inmediately, and repeat this until your opponent's board is clear and he slowly decks himself turn after turn. It is not easy, but it is possible.

[Noman Peopled]

I just want to point out that if you can control more or less your opponent and you have smokestack and deal in play, you can just up stax and end the turn inmediately, and repeat this until your opponent's board is clear and he slowly decks himself turn after turn. It is not easy, but it is possible.
True. That's not the issue I have, though. This is a two-card combo in a deck with minimal to no draw. Crucible may be worse with Smokestack for instance (since you can ramp "only" to 1-2 counters), but is much better on its own (well, with enough cards in the deck that I feel comfortable calling it "on its own"). Which also means that having Smokestack destroyed leaves you with one relevant piece less since that's presumably what one would cut for Sundial. Teeg is a similar issue since he's actually seeing play since Zenith.

Another issue is the lost turn (draw included). Even if your opponent will be sacrificing 1-2-3-4 he may still attack once or twice - if so, the synergy is not significantly better than just Smokestack, let alone Smokestack + lock piece. Sometimes you would undoubtedly be better off with a super-Stack, but sometimes you'd be better off with a regular-sized one plus Chalice/3Sphere/Magus/Crucible/etc. Quite situational for a card that already does nothing unless you can get Stack to stick - in a deck that relies heavily on its topdeck.
Plus, it may be hard to get any attack going once you're forced to get rid of Stack - not having drawn for a few turns, you have to sacrifice a bunch of permanents (Stack and Sundial included for obvious reasons). More importantly, you haven't cast anything during those turns either, including land, meaning that you have to sacrifice the better part of your board.

[android]

I think you completely missed the point of my comment and the running joke that is; anytime a card is printed that, in even the smallest way, interacts with the prison strategy, you have all the Stax people coming out of the woodwork. That is all I was saying, thank you for playing.

[mojoiskewl]

No more draw step Clique shenanigans!

Also that final fortune deck can be spread out over two turns
first turn play a scepter then copy a final fortune
next turn play sundial and activate

Scepter is not that bad, btw. Still dies to krosan grip, but who can say no to counterspell/fire//ice/chant everyturn?

[Star|Scream]

You can effectively wasteland a fetch if your opponent is stupid.

Well, yes, but if they have an uncracked fetch, and you go to wasteland the fetch, they go to crack it, and then you end the turn. They lose 1 life and a land. If they do nothing, then you waste their fetch and carry on.

I may be incorrect, so please tell me how they need to be stupid in order for this to work?

Obviously if they know you have this card they will fetch before your turn, but then you can just waste their dual. And if they fetch basics or crack the fetch on their turn, then you have them changing their strategy just to compensate for this card. I don't see how this is a bad thing. I just hope there are enough instances like this to make the card viable.

[bruizar]

They will just fetch immediately during their own turn or fetch in response to casting sundial of the infinite.

[Star|Scream]

They will just fetch immediately during their own turn or fetch in response to casting sundial of the infinite.

Ok, fair enough, but then it forces them to make that decision during their turn. So against blue they will have to use their brainstorm on their turn, with an empty stack, which I still see as a plus for this card.

[bruizar]

I would rather draw Knight of the Reliquary than Sundial of the Infinite (Which is virtually timewalking yourself because it does so little).

This card is not good for similar reasons Abolisher is not good. TIMING effects are worthless.

Leyline of Anticipation is not good
Vedalken Orrery is not good
Even Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir isn't played


The only way I could possibly see this card be good is if you are running a bunch of pacts.

[RexFTW]

Evoke creatures can be quite "broken" with food chain. This may be food chain 5-8 and make the deck somewhat viable.

Cards like shreikmaw go from being terror (close to playable) to being Terror + cabal ritual + cabal ritual (highly playable) with food chain in play, and Terror + 3/2 guy for 3 with Sundial in play.

[RexFTW]

It's cute with Stax's upkeep effects but that's about it. The deck is designed to be able to pay the upkeep costs. Sometimes it would indeed like to skip payment (say, not enough Smokestack fodder), but it won't like a card that does almost nothing beside saving you from Smokestack.

Incorrect. It also stops you from drawing. Which means they will draw out first, even if you drew first, which means you win.

[Noman Peopled]

Incorrect. It also stops you from drawing. Which means they will draw out first, even if you drew first, which means you win.
Yes, but even for that it needs Smokestack. Not all that much different from Stasis/Chronatog, really. One might just as well play Elspeth for additional Stack fodder and win with that.

But hell, I love the taste of my own words. I will get some Sundials for testing (they should be worth a lot of giggles regardless of playability) and if I'm wrong, cool.

[android]

As a rule, I collect any card that either does something no other card does or does something better than another card. This card certainly does what no other card does so it's worth getting a playset.

[Cire]

mono black aggro control combo?

Redundant Combos?
4 Sundial
4 Topor Orb
4 DreadNaught
4 Hunted Horror

Synergestic Removal?
4 Shriekmaw

Draw/Must Counter
4 Dark Confidant

Removal/Discard
4 Thought Seize
4 Hymn
3 Doom Blade
3 GFTT
2 Edict
2 Duress

4 Wasteland
14 Swamps
4 Dark Ritual

Not a monster of a deck but a deck that has lot of removal/discard while maintaining the ability to get a 7/7 or 12/12 into play really quickly. Meh it could be built upon I guess.

[Malchar]

Shriekmaw doesn't work that great with Torpor Orb. Also, wasting a fetch is hardly worth skipping the rest of your turn.

[Cire]

Shriekmaw doesn't work that great with Torpor Orb. Also, wasting a fetch is hardly worth skipping the rest of your turn.

The dial and orb are just colorless ways to get horror and dreadnought into play... Also shriek maw works great with dial. Agian I never said it was an awesome deck... Just a direction that could be taken with dial...

[Darkenslight]

IT also plays very nicely with Leveller and Eater of Days, along with other cards of that ilk.

[WildCard]

Last chance and warriors oath, while a sorcery and not imprintable to isochron's scepter can still fuel a deck. You can play these if you happen to have a sundial in play. It wont win you the game on the spot but could buy time to nab a combo.

4 mana to take the additional turn with isochron scepter, and 5 the next turn if you plan to play the sundial on the next to take infinite turns.

The only question I would have about making a deck like this is what would you use as protection?
Grand Abolisher sounds great. This way you remove them from the game completely.

[Infinitium]

Unless, of course, they have the audacity to play spells on their own turn. I think the best shell for this yet is a Uwb stiflenaught deck packing shriekmaw and Enlightened Tutor. Being able to destroy fetches and keeping people from doing stuff at your eot is also moderately useful in on itself. I'm going to keep an eye out for it in any case.

[morgan_coke]

You could combine Sundial with Torpor Orb and run the all drawback deck. Hunted Horror/Eater of Days/Phyrexian Dreadnaught is a pretty harsh creature base, and would still leave 40 slots for mana and disruption. Maybe Sinkhole/Wasteland/Stifle + rituals and thoughtseizes and draw spells? Or maybe you'd want a thresh style package BS/Ponder/Bob/Fetchlands?