[SCD] Grand Abolisher

[michaelq]

There's a new hate bear in town. And he is format defining.

Grand Abolisher
WW
Rare
Creature - Human Cleric
During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or active abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.
2/2

If your manabase can support him, he will be an absolute beast against today's meta.

[Final Ritual]

Orim's chant on a stick? Can TES's manabase support him?

[4eak]

It seems that Xantid Swarm often fulfills a similar role (with a few differences) in that case.

Let's take a moment to think and at the very least proxy him out to playtest before we predict 'format defining'.



peace,
4eak

[menace13]

Impressively printed creature and the effect is stunning. It can not be fun to play against that thing and no Legendary rule....

[Final Ritual]

Dodges mental misstep, and can punch for two.

[Bignasty197]

I REALLY hated playing against Death and Taxes before. Now, I might be playing it myself.

[Koby]

This creature is a natural fit into Cephalid Breakfast shells. I'm actually a bit scared to have to play against this in such a deck.

[Xero]

Orim's chant on a stick? Can TES's manabase support him?

Abeyance on a Grizzly Bear, actually.

I think the WW would be too hard for TES to come up with consistantly, Xantid Swarm/Chant seem like better choices.

[michaelq]

Grand Abolisher has many significant advantages over Xantid Swarm.

Xantid swarm reads:

Xantid Swarm
Creature - Insect 0/1, G (1)
Flying

Whenever Xantid Swarm attacks, defending player can't cast spells this turn

Grand Abolisher reads:

During your turn, your opponents can't cast spells or active abilities of artifacts, creatures, or enchantments.

+ Grand Abolisher's ability is a static effect - no attacking necessary, hence no summoning sickness and no exposure to lethal blocks in order to obtain the effect.
+ Grand Abolisher stops all actions on the opponent's part - basically the only abilities the opponent can use are land-based activated abilities.
+ Grand Abolisher can serve as a win condition if you can stall the board, and comes with a more robust 2/2 body.

His double white casting cost is limiting, of course. This said, he'll find a home MD and in the sideboard of:
- Aether vial decks like Death and Taxes and possibly Merfolk
- Stoneforge Mystic decks like Excaliber, Caw Blade decks
- Enchantress
- Deadguy Ale

But more significantly, Grand Abolisher will probably breed more white-centric control decks that are already blue-white, since he is essentially awesome hate against control decks.

Since you can pack 12 to 16 GOOD counterspell effects without ever needing more than one island on the table, it's possible that control will become more Wu than its traditional Uw shell. There will be less incentive to splash into a third color when you have two awesome two-drops in white. I imagine this sort of deck would work quite well against the field:

Instants 21
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures 8
4 Stone Forge Mystic
4 Grand Abolisher

Artifacts 3
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Lightning Greaves

Planeswalker 3
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

Enchantments 4
2 Back to Basics
2 Oblivion Ring

Land 21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
5 Plains
2 Islands

It's pretty vanilla, I know, but I'm going to test it to see whether 8 white beats is enough without having to splash for tarmogoyf or dark confidant. This allows us to play cards that punish non-basics like back-to-basics, and also lets us dip into some of the other good double white hate bears in the side board (true believer, samurai of the pale curtain, leonin relic warder).

[Digital Devil]

I like Grand Abolisher a lot - at least WotC is willing to stop countermagic strategies. This card fits so well in Angel Stompy I almost want to sleeve it up again. Between this, Stoneforge Mystic and the incredible amount of bombs it can play, I hope that deck can rise from its ashes.

P.S. - Screw you, Grand Abolisher, I'm playing Dredge.

[nwong]

How exactly does a 2/2 serve as a robust body or a win condition?

Abolisher doesn't stop them from playing a Goyf or something. Also, it only stops counterspells. Everything else they can do during their own turn.

Why are people acting like its effect is crippling/gamewinning when most of the time it'll only be mildly annoying?

[lorddotm]

This creature is a natural fit into Cephalid Breakfast shells. I'm actually a bit scared to have to play against this in such a deck.

I think Joe might be happy to play that deck. I might have to join him.

[trivial_matters]

Only a few combo decks play Xantid Swarm. I don't seem them paying WW for this guy.

[Digital Devil]

Why are people acting like its effect is crippling/gamewinning when most of the time it'll only be mildly annoying?
Because while you can counter your opponent spells/remove opponent's creatures at instant speed, they can't counter your Jace TMS/Stoneforge Mystic.

[Mr. Safety]

Folks got a little twitchy when Leonin Arbiter got spoiled, too...while this is a better bear than Arbiter (concievably) it should still be left to 'shake out' before a phrase like 'format defining' or 'format warping' should be tossed out.

Mental Misstep is a good example. It's good, yep, we knew that from the start. Format warping? No. Did it affect the format? Of course, any new card that is played will affect the format.

[bruizar]

Card sux. There, I said it. Hold me to it when it top 8's.

[nwong]

Because while you can counter your opponent spells/remove opponent's creatures at instant speed, they can't counter your Jace TMS/Stoneforge Mystic.

Sure, until they remove it. There's no need to get excited about a better Xantid Swarm that can't be run in the decks that want Xantid Swarm.

[wcm8]

It's a bit like Vexing Shusher, but less mana intensive.

The irony of them printing an anti-control card is that this card can/will be used by an W/U aggro control deck.

I think Aether Vial is a better overall method of making creatures uncounterable in a dedicated aggro deck, although Aether Vial gets worse as turns go by. Conversely, this guy is fine at any point of the game -- either you drop him early and reap the benefits then, or later on when you have a bunch of lands out he functions as a Silence/Orim's Chant for your follow-up bomb. At the very least he's a body, and I'd imagine any deck playing him is going to be running equipment.

If this card takes off, there are several easy ways to deal with this sort of deck. A 'hate bear' deck is going to likely be centered around CMC 2, and Engineered Explosives can wipe the board. Another consideration if you're playing black is Virtue's Ruin -- a Perish for white creatures.

[android]

How exactly does a 2/2 serve as a robust body or a win condition?


This was my good laugh for the morning. I don't really think "robust body" and "2/2" should ever be in the same sentence when referring to the game of Magic.

[alderon666]

Someone already said it but I feel I need to say it again.

This card is bonkers in Cephalid Breakfast. It's just Abeyance that can come down with a Vial activation. And once that resolves your opponent is basically locked out of the game. They can't counter anything, cast removal, activate Reliquary, Maze of Ith, Lavamancer, most hate cards like Crypt and Relic.

I think this is a big improvement to that deck. Is it enough to make a Tier-1 deck? That I don't know, but from now on I'll be very scared from Vial activations from decks with wierd mana bases... LOL

PS: They can still Karaks your Kiki-jiki.

[TorpidNinja]

This card is bonkers in Cephalid Breakfast. It's just Abeyance that can come down with a Vial activation. And once that resolves your opponent is basically locked out of the game. They can't counter anything, cast removal, activate Reliquary,Maze of Ith, Lavamancer, most hate cards like Crypt and Relic.

Fixed that for you.

[Rizso]

Dont know if this creature is gonna have any impact in legacy but in standard in a puresteel paladin deck.. This guy gives the abilitie to equip without your opponents able to respond to the equiping.

[Angelfire]

If not dealt with, he straight up rapes Blue and doesn't even offer lube. Counter spells and Counter/top (really just topping in response, but that is hella-relevant) are shut down. This is of course assuming you don't cast instants on your opponent's turn like a tard.

He also stops your opponent from nuking your dudes in response to slapping equipment on them (costing you a large tempo loss) and makes it harder for your opponent to fight through Mother of Runes.

Yes, against certain decks (like Zoo) he is just a "weak" creature who will get outclassed by cheap beaters. That isn't his only role though. Combat is his secondary priority.

[bruizar]

maze still works

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please use them in the future. -zilla

[menace13]

I am not a genius, but there has to be some use for a one sided(albeit on your turn only) Null Rod, Cursed Totem and a Silence on legs, I could always be wrong though.

[DrJones]

Anti-counter card that can be countered is useless.

[nedleeds]

White weenie shell with equips and Mishra's Factories seems like his main deck home. Even then he has stiff competition with various knights, relicwarder, maybe canonist. But keeping your factories safe is neat, maybe Jade Statue will make a comeback :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's pointless to discuss this card in any strategy that doesn't already care a lot about counters to begin with. Cephalid Breakfast seems like a reasonable use. Generic-white-weenie-deck does not.

[Bryant Cook]

You will not see it in my TES Lists.

[Tacosnape]

Grand Abolisher seems completely ridiculous in anything that can support him, if you ask me. He's not just an anti-counter card for combo and aggro alike. He's a means of making sure you don't fall victim to instant-speed removal when attaching equipment to guys, and he's a means of preventing your opponent from doing all sorts of tricksy shit.

I don't think he's a TES card. I expect Cephalid Breakfast to add one copy of him to maindeck lists, maybe two on the outside. And I expect White-based aggro decks to use him.

[Richard Cheese]

Seems good but not insane by any measure. You basically need to drop it and do nutty shit the same turn, or have an active Mom or something, or most decks won't care. I think it might have a home in Wb Deadguy-ish lists and DnT though.

[dsck]

Seems only worth it in cephalid breakfast/death and taxes and only because they can vial it in safely. Does this work same way under Humility as Painter's Servant does by the way?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Grand Abolisher seems completely ridiculous in anything that can support him, if you ask me. He's not just an anti-counter card for combo and aggro alike. He's a means of making sure you don't fall victim to instant-speed removal when attaching equipment to guys, and he's a means of preventing your opponent from doing all sorts of tricksy shit.

The point of most tricky shit is to make you waste a card, and if you're playing Grizzly Bear just for that it seems like it's already pretty much mission accomplished.

The only deck that really cares about combat-speed removal that I can think of is Merfolk, which obviously can't support this guy.

[Kich867]

Anti-counter card that can be countered is useless.

Yeah, like unless Legacy got some kind of new deck archetype like... I dunno, like some sort of aggro deck that can also control, I don't see this guy being useful. I just think aggro-control goes in two opposite directions though so it's clearly useless.

(Seriously DrJones, seriously? This guy slows down the game in all the right ways for an aggro control deck--you drop it, they counter it, you counter that, it resolves, now they have to main-phase anything they want to do against you. That forces them to tap out on their turn, they can't EOT do anything, if they want to brainstorm they do it during their turn, if they want to swords it in response to something, they have to do it during their turn. Also, Solidarity outright folds to this guy. He's powerful, he may not be format changing, but he's good for any deck that can protect him and wants to play threats during their own turn. Counter-balance can't function very well when they can't top during your turn. Aether Vial decks can't EOT drop a dude in or in combat drop a dude in. Nothing you do can be countered. No EOT dig spells. They can't even do simple things like leave Grim Lavamancer untapped for a potential blocker if they want to use him. Knight of the Reqliuary can't block and tap to sac a land to get a fetch land to pop the fetch land to be that much bigger and beat your dude. Actually, just in general, KOTR kind of sucks when this guy hits the table as he can only do -one- thing. If he wants to attack he has to, if he wants to block he has to, if he wants to fetch a land he has to do it right then.

It's the little things that add up, and ultimately I can't see him defining a deck, but he'll be removal/counter bait and if he -does- stick your opponent is immediately in an incredibly bad situation. "None of his stuff can be countered, all of my stuff can be countered, I live only in my main phase now. Fun.")

[bruizar]

If there is any place for this card, it's going to be vintage where it shuts down moxen, and where there is hardly any creature. Legacy isn't the right format for this dude. If I had to play a deck with Abolisher, it would be in Vintage.

[Octopusman]

I love this card. Just preordered a set. <3

I don't think anyone in this thread has considering everything this card means yet.

[Star|Scream]

I love this card. Just preordered a set. <3

I don't think anyone in this thread has considering everything this card means yet.

This.

It changes the way your opponent plays their game. If it resolves they can't even remove it that turn. So the stp they were holding for your 2-drop now effectively costs them WW and 1/2 or 1/3 of their turn 2 or 3 mana. You use this card to force the opponent to play your game. This card can be built around.

[Iare]

This.

It changes the way your opponent plays their game. If it resolves they can't even remove it that turn. So the stp they were holding for your 2-drop now effectively costs them WW and 1/2 or 1/3 of their turn 2 or 3 mana. You use this card to force the opponent to play your game. This card can be built around.


Uh, there was a deck called fish a long time ago that was basically a bunch of countermagic + hatebears. It died and considering how the format has evolved I am fairly certain it is going to stay dead. In fact, if you drop this against me I am going to look at it .. laugh hysterically and try and decide if I should burn it out or let it be a speedbump for my fatty.

Hatebear.deck sucks.
4x Meddling Mage
4x Grand Abolisher
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Teeg

4x Vial
Other stuff < --- go ahead fill this in with something that isn't going to end up absolute garbage, wrecked by any tier 3 deck ....


- Signed, Someone who plays red spells.

[morgan_coke]

Hello Iare, you seem to have left a few cards off of that list:

4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x sword of x/x
1x sword of x/x
1x jitte

and in the sideboard
4x Kor Firewalker

Don't think the "red" matchup is as bad as you're thinking.

[Barook]

Hello Iare, you seem to have left a few cards off of that list:

4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x sword of x/x
1x sword of x/x
1x jitte

and in the sideboard
4x Kor Firewalker

Don't think the "red" matchup is as bad as you're thinking.
Also throw in Mother of Runes. Not that Hatebears.deck would become more viable this way.

[Koby]

Hello Iare, you seem to have left a few cards off of that list:

4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x sword of x/x
1x sword of x/x
1x jitte

and in the sideboard
4x Circle of Protection: Red

Don't think the "red" matchup is as bad as you're thinking.

Fixed that for you, but it doesn't really solve the Sulfuric Vortex plan.

[Richard Cheese]

Seems like against control, they counter it if they have it. Against aggro, they probably tapped out the turn before to play something bigger than 2/2, untap, burn/remove Abolisher, swing is not a problem...it's the normal line of play.

[majikal]

Fixed that for you, but it doesn't really solve the Sulfuric Vortex plan.

Qasali Pridemage thinks otherwise.

[Octopusman]

Uh, there was a deck called fish a long time ago that was basically a bunch of countermagic + hatebears. It died and considering how the format has evolved I am fairly certain it is going to stay dead. In fact, if you drop this against me I am going to look at it .. laugh hysterically and try and decide if I should burn it out or let it be a speedbump for my fatty.

Hatebear.deck sucks.
4x Meddling Mage
4x Grand Abolisher
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Teeg

4x Vial
Other stuff < --- go ahead fill this in with something that isn't going to end up absolute garbage, wrecked by any tier 3 deck ....


- Signed, Someone who plays red spells.

Fish might not be played...

People tend to forget about decks that fall out of favor until new printings revitalize them. I maintain that a modern Fish deck can and could be good.
Hopefully Hanni can back me up here.
Cards like SFM, Elspeth, and the new counters are really strong.

I'm actually looking forward to having some of these folks eat crow once this is legal. The same way that people are accepting more and more that Phyrexian Revoker is amazing.

Discussions like these are interesting because it's all speculation at this point. Theorheticals can only go so far.


Also, I find it amusing that someone insinuated that a 2/2 isn't a good enough beatdown strategy.


Edit: Speaking of revitalizing - - I was just thinking recently how amazing Jace would be in Pirates!.dec

[Grollub]

PT Jank 2011 is gonna rock up T2, you heard it here first. :-P

[SpikeyMikey]

I can't understand why people are comparing this to Xantid Swarm, especially 4eak who usually has a great deal more sense than the average MtG player. The two are only superficially similar. Xantid Swarm shuts down spells, but not abilities, post combat. It's dirt cheap and evasive, but it does no damage. In short, it's ideal for a combo deck that wants to resolves spells but it's terrible for an aggro deck that wants to win through the red zone. It does nothing about protecting your creatures going into the red zone and it does no damage. If Gaddock Teeg cost 1 and was a 0/1, nobody would play with him because he'd suck. Being a bear does not make a creature an efficient beater, but it makes it enough that it can get there in a pinch. And aggro can handle cards that are slightly suboptimal in the racing department if they're sufficiently disruptive and further other aspects of the deck.

As has been discussed to death, one of the primary issues with equipment in the decks that run them is that it's easy to remove a creature in response to the equip and generate fucktons of tempo. But you're staring across the table at a Mirran Crusader and they've got a Sword of Fire and Ice; you've got the Plow to stop it. Suddenly, they Vial in Abolisher. Your Plow is irrelevant. They equip the Crusader with the Sword and proceed to hit you for fucking 12. Now you can Plow the Crusader on your next turn, but on their turn they're just going to equip the Abolisher and hit you for what's probably a lethal 6 more. Consider this in comparison to a situation where they Vial in say a Serra Avenger, leaving you twice as many turns to find an answer before dying.

One of the reasons that pump has always been difficult to use is that it's easy to gain a 2-for-1 by removing the creature in response to the pump. This is a balancing factor, because pump does more damage than creatures do on a mana for mana basis. Consider the basic pump spell, Giant Growth. G for 3. Now consider how many 3 power creatures you can find in the 1 mana slot. To my knowledge, not including temporary creatures (like Spark Elemental), there are 3. Rogue Elephant, Scythe Tiger and Wild Nacatl. One of those is actually playable and all 3 have major drawbacks built in. Giant Growth is just an unconditional 3 extra damage tacked on any creature. This applies to instant/sorcery pump, to enchantment pump, to equipment pump, even to Planeswalker pump (I'm looking at you, Elspeth). Forcing your opponent to chose which creature to remove well in advance of your attack step gives you a strategic advantage in decks utilizing some sort of pump (usually equipment based since white already has a walking tutor for equipment that lets you cheat on the mana costs a bit too).

I don't expect this to go in every deck. I don't expect this to complete stand the format on its ear. I do expect this to be a very expensive card (because it'll be good across formats) and I do expect that it will see play in Legacy consistently for at least the next couple of years until it falls out of favor.

[4eak]

@ SpikeyMikey


I can't understand why people are comparing this to Xantid Swarm, especially 4eak who usually has a great deal more sense than the average MtG player. The two are only superficially similar. Xantid Swarm shuts down spells, but not abilities, post combat. It's dirt cheap and evasive, but it does no damage. In short, it's ideal for a combo deck that wants to resolves spells but it's terrible for an aggro deck that wants to win through the red zone.

If you look at both my post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21347-SCD-Grand-Abolisher&p=565087&viewfull=1#post565087)and the one before it, then my post might make more sense. I was specifically responding to a comment about TES, a very specific case. My response was terse, and perhaps I should have fleshed it out further. A comparison between Xantid Swarm's and Grand Abolisher's abilities is fairly accurate for use in TES, and so the cheaper mana cost leads me to prefer Xantid Swarm in that case, just as you yourself point out.

I don't think such a comparison can be made in other cases.

Note that even in TES, I think there are relevant differences in their abilities (which I alluded to before). Among them includes:


No instant burn after an AdN takes you down to very low life.
No Top or Brainstorm to dig for permission or to setup CB in response to something.
Diminishing Returns becomes safer.





peace,
4eak

[Richard Cheese]

Suddenly, they Vial in Abolisher.

Why would you not just Swords the Crusader in response?

[Nihil Credo]

Consider the basic pump spell, Giant Growth. G for 3. Now consider how many 3 power creatures you can find in the 1 mana slot. To my knowledge, not including temporary creatures (like Spark Elemental), there are 3. Rogue Elephant, Scythe Tiger and Wild Nacatl. One of those is actually playable and all 3 have major drawbacks built in. Giant Growth is just an unconditional 3 extra damage tacked on any creature.

This is such a monumentally stupid paragraph that I cannot help but feel forced to point out the obvious difference, murderer. Giant Growth is so much closer to Spark Elemental than it is to Wild Nacatl.

[SpikeyMikey]

Why would you not just Swords the Crusader in response?

You can respond to the vial activation with Swords, but once you let it resolve and find out what creature they're vialing in, it's too late. So yes, you could Swords the Crusader in response, but not after finding out that the creature they're vialing in is Abolisher.

[mrjumbo03]

Why would you not just Swords the Crusader in response?

If the opponent let's the vial activation resolve, the Abolisher will be put into play immediately, not giving the opponent an opportunity to respond with swords to plowshares.

[dahcmai]

Another point in this guy's favor for combo is the fact that he helps in the worst match up ever Counterbalance. That set up is so bad for a combo player to see. It's very crushing to play through if you can at all. Anything that can help that is a welcome sight. It's not like TES has a hard time casting a WW critter anyway.

[TheCramp]

A few common but marginal interactions: your opponent cannot use jitte counters to pump defensively, Misheras factory can animate, but not pump-itself after blocking, batterskull cannot bounce, vial obviousy needs to be used mainphase - preventing: "endstep, guy, tick up vial, lord, beat." Goblins could give a fuck, on account of haste, but merfolk cares. Cursecatcher stops working, which sort of matters sometimes. It should be noted that if you vial him in, they cannot remove him that turn, at all.

The ability to forge in SoFI equip to Mirrian Crusader, and take some kind of concord filght sipping Tyrconnell while Burning Witch throbs over the sound system non-stop to value town... Ok ok, back to reality. Seriously though, you should Listen to Burning Witch. They fucking rock. Also, this card is ok.

[TsumiBand]

It does make for an interesting Angel Stompy-esque shell, doesn't it.

4 Aether Vial
4 Mental Misstep

4 Mother of Runes
4 Grand Abolisher
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords Jitte (Batterskull)?

32 other things

Seems a safe way to use SFM in concert with an aggressive strategy that allows you to tap out and still do neat things via Aether Vial, Mental Misstep, Mother of Runes. Probably needs a couple other beaters to boot, Serra Avenger or Exalted Angel (another 'safe bet' considering that they can't kill it during your turn and during theirs they have to put up with Mom and Misstep).

[majikal]

So, time for for UW Hivemind?

[Tao]

This is a strong card. I am sure that Death and Taxes wants a couple of him and might start to be a real contender now.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Another point in this guy's favor for combo is the fact that he helps in the worst match up ever Counterbalance. That set up is so bad for a combo player to see. It's very crushing to play through if you can at all. Anything that can help that is a welcome sight. It's not like TES has a hard time casting a WW critter anyway.

If they have the Countertop set up, isn't a 2 cc dude boned?

[RogueMTG]

Seems only worth it in cephalid breakfast/death and taxes and only because they can vial it in safely. Does this work same way under Humility as Painter's Servant does by the way?

I don't believe so.


613.9. Some continuous effects affect players rather than objects. For example, an effect might give a player protection from red. All such effects are applied in timestamp order after the determination of objects’ characteristics. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 613.6 and
613.7).

Abolisher's characteristics will be determined prior to applying it's effect.

Humility's "with no abilities" applies while determining those characteristics, in Layer 6:



613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a
card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a
spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then
all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s
card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.


Servant works because its ability applies in Layer 5, before Humility can remove it. Abolisher's ability will not apply until after we've passed through all of these layers (see 613.9).

If I'm wrong someone please let me know.

[dahcmai]

Probably, but it's better than nothing. It was really only a small point in it's favor, but that match up is sooo bad you tend to grasp at straws for ways to get out of a set up Counterbalance.


And just for the record Abolisher is boned by Humility. Rogue has it right. That one is not even going to use the layering for it really. Humility hits and takes away his ability. Simple enough.

The only reason people mention the Painter's servant thing is because He paints everything before Humility hits him. He's layer 5 so his ability goes off before layer 6's Humility stuff hits. So he makes everything whatever color, then humility hits him and takes his ability. He's still in play so everything stays painted.

Same goes for Magus of the Moon, though he's a layer 4 for type changer.

This guy doesn't matter. He comes in stops abilities for a split second, then loses it. Technically, they are both layer 6 if something weird comes up, but i can't think of a single thing where it would matter.

If there's any rules stuff I know well it's the layering stuff. I love Humility.

[DragoFireheart]

Fish decks in Vintage just got a little disgusting.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

This guy is bad with vial, not good!
If you have a vial you don't care about countermagic and YOU do the combat tricks...

[Dark Ritual]

We're talking about vial in combo decks such as cephalid breakfast. This guy is a 4 of in breakfast; he's tutorable protection and his mana cost isn't that difficult to achieve in the deck to hardcast him. He's obviously the best with vial because imagine turn 1 vial, turn 2 tick, land, go. Turn 3 tick, land, vial him in, illusionist, nomads, win on the spot. You could even go turn 2 eladamri's call for abolisher or worldly tutor for abolisher to win in the first 2 turns. The fact that he can be tutored is why he's sick in breakfast because we don't have mystical tutor for force of will/cabal therapy/duress/whatever unfortunately.

Helping out the CB MU with this guy is irrelevant. CB.dec is not really a tier one deck anymore it's tier 2 at best. Only reason to play it is if you're expecting a lot of combo and combo went on the decline due to misstep being printed. And CB was only good against storm combo. Imagine, CB v. hive mind or painter stone. The MU is 50/50 at best and that's if you draw the right cards and they don't draw the cards to answer you because an unanswered goblin welder wins them the game. Hive mind if hardcast only gets countered by force of will and they will likely have their own protection if they're hardcasting hive mind or they have multiple copies. Not to mention they can win on turn 2 before CB is assembled. And their curve isn't focused on one or 2 drops but 3 drops and 6 drops. So show and tell just wins them the game generally.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This guy is a 4 of in breakfast; he's tutorable protection and his mana cost isn't that difficult to achieve in the deck to hardcast him.

The latter point here is untrue and the middle contradicts the former.

Breakfast lists are fairly tight, even with the new kill, and your manabase is already skewed in several directions. A one of tutor target seems fine.

[Forbiddian]

Anti-counter card that can be countered is useless.

Aren't you the same guy who thinks Force of Will should be banned?



This creature also changes the way Vial is used in SFM decks, and the way that equipment happens. If you're planning to Brainstorm or whatever on your turn and your opponent taps a Vial, you pretty much have to Brainstorm without information.

[DrJones]

Yes, and given than the argument against its ban is the asinine "I like FoW because otherwise it wouldn't be legacy", it's only a matter of time until FoW is banned or Legacy dies the same way than Vintage died.

I'm also on the field of people that thinks that the Vial + Abolisher combo is a terrible play. There are only two tournament-worthy effects you want to prevent with Grand Abolisher that are useless when played in your opponent's turn: countermagic and land abilities (Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port, etc), and Vial already prevents the one that matters. You talk about the loss of being able to brainstorm in response as if it truly mattered. Here's a hint: it doesn't.

This card is not as cheap as Xantid Swarm or Silence, is not as effective as the already pretty useless Vexing Shusher, and at least that one couldn't be countered, and Gaddock Teeg is a better hate bear than this one most of time.

However, in a nongreen white tempo deck that used 3x this card and 4x aether vial in the same fashion than goblins use 4x vial and 4x lackey as a way to bypass the counter wall, it could work. The difference is that Goblin Lackey is actually a good card that advances your strategy, and this one isn't.

[marax]

This guy is bad with vial, not good!
If you have a vial you don't care about countermagic and YOU do the combat tricks...

First of all, please reread the card:
It only stops your opponents not yourself. Secondly, it also stops counters on important stuff like planeswalkers or sorcery spells or targeted removal (used at sorcery speed).

Therefore I think this card is worth exploring in Stoneforge Mystic decks of all kinds and might be put to good use if the meta is suitable. The arguments made for it's use in Breakfast sound convincing as well.

[Tao]

This guy does so much.

- Force of Will
- Daze, Stifle, Counterspell, Cursecatcher, Spell Snare, Mental Misstep
- shuts down Mother of Runes
- turns off Knight of the Reliquary's ability to block and grow in the same turn
- makes Brainstorm worse
- makes Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Aether Vial worse
- makes Swords to Plowshares / other Instant removal (Repeal, Disfigure, Edict) worse
- Solidarity lol
- breaks the Painterstone stalemate (Stone in play, they play Painter, you hold Sword and the first who acts loses)
- gives you a nice way to take out Qasali Pridemages with Umezawa's Jitte or to at least hit once with Equipment before it dies
- makes Pernicious Deed / Explosives worse to some degree (while being a Victim of it himself he forces to blow it up main phase so you are the first to fill the board again)

[Nihil Credo]

This guy does so much.

- Force of Will
- Daze, Stifle, Counterspell, Cursecatcher, Spell Snare, Mental Misstep
- shuts down Mother of Runes
- turns off Knight of the Reliquary's ability to block and grow in the same turn
- makes Brainstorm worse
- makes Grim Lavamancer, Stoneforge Mystic, Aether Vial worse
- makes Swords to Plowshares / other Instant removal (Repeal, Disfigure, Edict) worse
- Solidarity lol
- breaks the Painterstone stalemate (Stone in play, they play Painter, you hold Sword and the first who acts loses)
- gives you a nice way to take out Qasali Pridemages with Umezawa's Jitte or to at least hit once with Equipment before it dies
- makes Pernicious Deed / Explosives worse to some degree (while being a Victim of it himself he forces to blow it up main phase so you are the first to fill the board again)

All but the first two are relevant once in a hundred matches, if that. There's nothing particularly wrong with this guy, but whatever card he's supposed to replace would probably have saved your ass five times as often.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Between the hype over this card and the vast overratedness of Vendilion Clique, I'm pretty sure people just have an unhealthy fascination with doing stuff eot. Like, Chain Lightning gets played, guys. Brainstorm is fine as a sorcery. Few effects outside of counters get drastically worse at sorcery speed, at least against decks that aren't pulling off shennanigans ala Breakfast.

[bruizar]

Thank you IBA. People seem to be stuck on EOT shenanigans. STP as a sorcery still beats your bear, in fact, any removal spell does.

[Finn]

Depends on the deck. The ability to equip with impunity is a pretty big deal for starters.

[Barook]

Depends on the deck. The ability to equip with impunity is a pretty big deal for starters.
It's also pretty damn good with Rancor, eliminating its only weakness.

[Tao]

@Nihil Credo:
But the first two examples are very important. FoW plus Soft counters is found in ~ half of all decks in legacy.
And I play far more often against Mother of Runes than 1 in 100 matches. Using this for carefree use of SFM + equipping sounds like it could also happen frequently.
The good thing about stopping Instant status on Removal and Brainstorm and abilities is that it will have an effect on your opponents plays every game multiple times. I think it is very likely that one of these times it will be relevant. Be it not being able to respond to your actions with Brainstorm and either losing a relevant card that didn't seem relevant in your main phase or an important Mana because you waited with your Brainstorm to get more information. Or that you have to use your Swords main phase and not get the more important creature. Or that you have to use Mystic for Batterskull main phase and lose it to a Pridemage that you could have killed otherwise.
I am not sure if this will be an important creature in Legacy either because of the unpleasant Mana cost but I think some hype about this is justified.


@IBA: just stating that Vendillion Clique is vastly overrated is certainly off-topic. You present it like a fact but it is not a fact. If you want to discuss Vedillion Clique then start a SCD about it. If you want to use examples then use facts and not your opinion on a different topic.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And I play far more often against Mother of Runes than 1 in 100 matches. Using this for carefree use of SFM + equipping sounds like it could also happen frequently.

Playing around removal with equipment generally obviates the point of equipment. Like Leonin Shikari is not a card people play anymore because they realize it was a negligible advantage on a bear. This game is full of negligible advantage bears. None of them are necessary to make Jitte particularly better.


The good thing about stopping Instant status on Removal and Brainstorm and abilities is that it will have an effect on your opponents plays every game multiple times.

So will Ethersworn Canonist or Leonin Arbiter or fuck even Lone Missionary.

Like your opponent will play differently, assuming they're not just going to kill you with combo, if you play Knight of the Holy Nimbus. But you don't want your opponent to acknowledge your cards exist, you want them to lose to your cards.

In non-combo decks this is almost the quintessential example of times that doesn't happen.


@IBA: just stating that Vendillion Clique is vastly is certainly off-topic. You present it like a fact but it is not a fact. If you want to discuss Vedillion Clique then start a SCD about it. If you want to use examples then use facts and not your opinion on a different topic.

This point borders on incoherence by dint of the fact that everything in this thread is an opinion. Take your butthurt elsethread.

[Tao]

Yeah, those are bad cards. I know bad white 2-drops too. Abuna Acolyte for example. Or Kami of Ancient Law. But that has unfortunately exactly nothing to do with Grand Abolisher. The ability is either relevant enough or not relevant enough.

And yes, everything in this thread is opinion. But about Grand Abolisher and not Vendillion Clique.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, those are bad cards. I know bad white 2-drops too. Abuna Acolyte for example. Or Kami of Ancient Law. But that has unfortunately exactly nothing to do with Grand Abolisher. The ability is either relevant enough or not relevant enough.

And yes, everything in this thread is opinion. But about Grand Abolisher and not Vendillion Clique.

Sometimes multiple ideas are connected- and I mean this abstractly, mind you, not to say that they are literally tethered by ropes or chain or piping or such as they are ideas and have no physical form- by other ideas.

[Tao]

Sometimes multiple ideas are connected- and I mean this abstractly, mind you, not to say that they are literally tethered by ropes or chain or piping or such as they are ideas and have no physical form- by other ideas.

The problem is not that there is no connection but that your example does not suit as a factual example in the way you used it. It is not a fact that Vendillion Clique is overrated. It is your personal opinion and nonetheless you claimed that it is a fact.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem is not that there is no connection but that your example does not suit as a factual example in the way you used it. It is not a fact that Vendillion Clique is overrated. It is your personal opinion and nonetheless you claimed that it is a fact.

No I didn't. I don't pretend that any evaluations of a card's strength or weaknesses is fact. You're flailing around desperately to try and make up something vaguely condemnatory you can stick me with.

Vendilion Clique is over-rated largely because people like doing things at instant speed, even when there is no advantage to doing so. Likewise people are overrating this bear because they like doing things at instant speed and infer that stripping this ability from their opponents will be inherently relevant.

I don't know if I can make the connection any more plain to you, or explain that when adults have conversations it's taken for granted that unless I say otherwise I represent no one's but my own opinion.

[Gheizen64]

Between the hype over this card and the vast overratedness of Vendilion Clique, I'm pretty sure people just have an unhealthy fascination with doing stuff eot. Like, Chain Lightning gets played, guys. Brainstorm is fine as a sorcery. Few effects outside of counters get drastically worse at sorcery speed, at least against decks that aren't pulling off shennanigans ala Breakfast.

Brainstorm as a sorcery would be so much worse against discard, though. And against wasteland. And in general.

Abolisher, however, is mediocre. Does nothing against combo and aggro, get removed easily by anything against control.

[clavio]

This cards is comparable to Defense Grid and City of Solitude. Both of those cards see very little play. The fact that it's a 2/2 is hardly relevant. I would say this card is weaker than suppression field, which sees exactly zero play.

[Greenpoe]

Suppression Field is sometimes played in Staxx.

[Tao]

No I didn't. I don't pretend that any evaluations of a card's strength or weaknesses is fact. You're flailing around desperately to try and make up something vaguely condemnatory you can stick me with.

Vendilion Clique is over-rated largely because people like doing things at instant speed, even when there is no advantage to doing so. Likewise people are overrating this bear because they like doing things at instant speed and infer that stripping this ability from their opponents will be inherently relevant.

I don't know if I can make the connection any more plain to you, or explain that when adults have conversations it's taken for granted that unless I say otherwise I represent no one's but my own opinion.

There is no need to explain that connection a fourth time. I understood it the first, second time and third time.

Imo there are advantages of playing Vendillion Clique EoT or in the opponent's draw step but that's only my opinion on a different card with its own pros and cons. I just won't argue about that card. The discussion would have gotten even more off-topic if I did that. But to even begin arguing about your point that Instant status is overrated I would have to do just that, deal with your irrelevant, off-topic Vendillion example.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There is no need to explain that connection a fourth time. I understood it the first, second time and third time.

Imo there are advantages of playing Vendillion Clique EoT or in the opponent's draw step but that's only my opinion on a different card with its own pros and cons. I just won't argue about that card. The discussion would have gotten even more off-topic if I did that. But to even begin arguing about your point that Instant status is overrated I would have to do just that, deal with your irrelevant, off-topic Vendillion example.

ITT: Tao does not understand what Ace of Diamonds has to do with Three of Clubs, they are completely different cards.

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this new card better than Orim's Chant or Silence in a combo deck attempting to protect it's combo from countermagic/removal? They are easier to cast, not susceptable to removal, much more flexible, and if countered it at least fish out a counterspell that may have been shot at a combo piece. The already discussed Xantid Swarm is by far more mana efficient as a creature-based protection, conditional or not. The single G is much more pragmatic than WW.

If you're going to get your combo on, well get to it. But don't play an overcosted wuss like Grand Abolisher to protect it.

[Di]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this new card better than Orim's Chant or Silence in a combo deck attempting to protect it's combo from countermagic/removal? They are easier to cast, not susceptable to removal, much more flexible, and if countered it at least fish out a counterspell that may have been shot at a combo piece. The already discussed Xantid Swarm is by far more mana efficient as a creature-based protection, conditional or not. The single G is much more pragmatic than WW.

If you're going to get your combo on, well get to it. But don't play an overcosted wuss like Grand Abolisher to protect it.

You aren't going to see Cephalid Breakfast Vialing in any Orim's Chants. He's great for that deck, or really any creature-based combo deck that can Vial him in.






And he sucks in pretty much everything else.

[Mr. Safety]

Ahhh...I was forgetting Cephalid Breakfast. Good call there...and I agree with your second line, lol.