2012 Mill

[kinda]

Now I don't see mill ever becoming tier 1, but with visions of beyond and new jace now I wanted to take a look. Here's what I came up with. After looking at some older mill threads I saw extirpate+mind funeral mentioned.

4 archive trap
4 glimpse the unthinkable
4 mind funeral
4 visions of beyond
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 jace, memory adept
4 ensnaring bridge
4 mesmeric orb
4 extirpate

22 land

sb:
4 hedron crab
4 memory sluice

[Technics]

In a straight mill deck Jace seems bad. For the same cost you could play Tramatize and unless they have less then 20 cards in their library, it's normally going to be better. I would also cut alot of the "cute" stuff, and try and just play like a burn deck. Put Crab main, and cut all the Bridge, Brainstorm, Ponder stuff. Run just counters or discard, and mill.

[bruizar]

Here´s my list.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Hedron Crab
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
2 Jace, Memory Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spellsnare

19 Land, with lots of fetch.

Stoneforge Mystic - You need a board. Sword of Body and Mind does everything this deck wants. It makes extra creatures to protect yourself, gives pro goyf/knight/nacatl/jace/merfolk, and helps you Glimpse your opponent every turn.

Hedron Crab - You need creatures to equip Swords on, and these guys take care of a lot of cards by themselves.

Jace, Memory Adept - Glimpse every turn is good. Draw with +1 is good too

Archive Trap - Main offenders are Fetch, Stoneforge Mystic, Natural Order

Glimpse the Unthinkable - Solid mill

Thoughtseize - You need to remove threats before they start beating down on you.

Plowshares/Diabolic Edict - You really need to remove threats before they're gunning for you

Counters - Better save than sorry

[jlagrav]

I think Sewer Nemesis would be great to beat people down with. It can easily be a 20/20 or even more in a mill deck. I also think Jace's Archivist could be good to somewhat mill and to get more cards in your own hand.

[kinda]

Here´s my list.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Hedron Crab
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict

4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
2 Jace, Memory Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spellsnare

19 Land, with lots of fetch.

Stoneforge Mystic - You need a board. Sword of Body and Mind does everything this deck wants. It makes extra creatures to protect yourself, gives pro goyf/knight/nacatl/jace/merfolk, and helps you Glimpse your opponent every turn.

Hedron Crab - You need creatures to equip Swords on, and these guys take care of a lot of cards by themselves.

Jace, Memory Adept - Glimpse every turn is good. Draw with +1 is good too

Archive Trap - Main offenders are Fetch, Stoneforge Mystic, Natural Order

Glimpse the Unthinkable - Solid mill

Thoughtseize - You need to remove threats before they start beating down on you.

Plowshares/Diabolic Edict - You really need to remove threats before they're gunning for you

Counters - Better save than sorry

Looks good to me but brainstorm is the best card in the game and visions of beyond is even better than brainstorm (read absolutely bonkers) in this deck. I would start by cutting jace as 19 land+5cc spells does not work. Not running mind funeral feels wrong too in a format where 20 lands including fetches is not uncommon.

@jlagrav: A visions of beyond, sewer nemesis, stoneforge+sword of body and mind deck could be interesting.

[laxkiddan]

In terms of the original list, I say go for broke. Ditch the battleskull, Stoneforge, and equipment. Stick your guns and put hedron crab and memory sluice in the main deck.

[sankido]

How about this build?

// Creatures
4 Hedron Crab

// Milling
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral

// Cards
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Brainstorm

// Disruption
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict

19 Lands

I'm not sure about playing Hedron Crab over Mesmeric Orb.

Also not sure about Sewer Nemesis as an alternative win condition. I think it is better to stick to the milling plan.

[Karhumies]

@ Sankido: I might try to squeeze in a couple of Trapmaker's Snare. As long as there are Archive Traps remaining in the library, it's typically the best T2 play.

If you need to delay the game, how about Energy Field instead of Ensnaring Bridge?

Also, Haunting Echoes would be a nice finisher, but costs 3BB, which is way too much.

[Gocho]

Haunting Echoes, doesn't finish the game. Your opponent would keep a small library with all his basic lands and perhaps 3 or 6 cards that aren't in his grave. So, he have some turns to kill you with his board and hand. You would need another spell to kill him.

[Merckinator]

I've been fooling around goldfishing with this list:

4 island
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn

4 brainstorm
4 visions of beyond

4 archive trap
4 vision charm
4 tome scour
4 hedron crab
4 mesmeric orb
4 glimpse the unthinkable
4 mind funeral
4 sanity grinding

I removed the disruption and it appears to be winning around turn 5-6. This version reminds me of a burn deck, since it doesn't really do anything on the board, but it does have visions of beyond and brainstorm + fetch. It doesn't really feel fast enough to negate the fact that it has no disruption though, perhaps a slower build would be better. (Also 20 lands was spur of the moment; I didn't analyze if it was optimal.)

Mesmeric Orb and the Hedron Crab do give you inevitability and they do more damage the longer they're allowed to be on the board.

I doubt if this would be fast enough to race an aggro deck, since they typically win turn 4-5 and I wouldn't be slowing them at all. One could easily remove Sanity Grinding, as I feel it's one of the weaker cards in the deck averaging around 8 milled for 3 mana.

I'm curious if Twincast could be any good, if we keep the curve low. I would love to copy Visions of Beyond, Archive Snare, or Glimpse the Unthinkable. That would just make me happy, might not be the best idea to put it in though haha.

Also, could Brainfreeze deserve a spot? It costs 2 and playing it on your opponent's turn mills at least 6, maybe even 9 relatively consistently. I could imagine a turn where your opponent pops a fetch, you trap for free, they play 1 or 2 spells and then EoT we Brainfreeze for 9 or 12. That could happen often enough to include. And a twincasted copy would still trigger storm, right?

@Sankido - I like your list but I might cut Duress and the Edict to be able to run Mesmeric Orb or Tome Scour.

@Karhumies - Trapmaker's Snare is interesting. Having your opponent know that you have the trap in hand would probably make them not search their library, if they're nearly milled. That being said, having them not search their library would be a good thing but it's hard to know how beneficial it would be for us. I do love the Snare though, it's such an awesome card because (almost) everyone runs fetches.

@Gocho - I agree, Haunting Echoes is cool and neat but does not win for you and costs way too much to play. If you want that type of effect, then Extirpate might be an awesome card for at least the sideboard against maybe combo and such.

@Sims (directly below this post) - I concur wholeheartedly and only thought of it late last night, haha. I would definitely cut it from my list and put Brainfreeze in its place, atm. Although disruption/counters might be good/needed to fit in the deck.

I feel like this deck could almost be as fast as a burn/aggro deck and has a much better combo matchup if counters/disruption are worked into maindeck, or at least sideboard.

[Sims]

Sanity Grinding doesn't seem that great unless you are legit building the deck around abusing it. That requires, much like the standard deck when it was legal, playing cards like Cryptic Command, plumeveil, and the Demigod/Avatars to buff up your Grindings.

[sankido]

@Karhumies: I run 16 Cards with milling effects so I don't think I need a tutor like Trapmaker's Snare to find a specific one. I think it's a waste of card slots.

@Merckinator: At this point I indeed regard the Duress and Diabolic Edict as experimental slots. Vision Charm would be a better choice than Tome Scour because it's more versatile but I wouldn't play it because I think you need a lot of disruption in this deck to compete with the meta.

Mesmeric Orb is a different matter though. Personally I would play either it or Hedron Crab but not both. Mesmeric Orb seems to be better against aggro because they need to tap out. Against control it's not so good because the control player have ways to avoid it or play around it, here I see the Hedron Crab as the better choice. OTOH Hedron Crab is a good blocker to survive another round against aggro, therefore I came to the conclusion Hedron Crab is the better card in this deck.

I need to playtest...unfortunately time doesn't let me right now.

[Hopo]

As every mill deck before, this would most likely benefit a lot from Twincast. And Mesmeric Orb could as well be something else unless you play Basalt Monolith with it.

And then there is the Emrakul-problem. I suggest Extirpate, Ravenous Trap and/or Surgical Extraction as a solution.

[sankido]

As every mill deck before, this would most likely benefit a lot from Twincast. And Mesmeric Orb could as well be something else unless you play Basalt Monolith with it.

And then there is the Emrakul-problem. I suggest Extirpate, Ravenous Trap and/or Surgical Extraction as a solution.

I'm not convinced by Twincast. You have to pay the original spells mana cost plus the mana cost forTwincast. That means you have to pay 4 Mana for the usual double Glimpse the Unthinkable. Four mana seems to be a lot.

Regarding Emrakul, the Aeons Torn I could see Leyline of the Void as a sideboard solution. That said I could also imagine Helm of Obedience as a sideboard card.

[Merckinator]

I had wanted to see if this deck could be similar to a burn deck, by focusing on decking the opponent as quickly as possible without disruption.

If we take the deck more towards control, with 4 FoW, 4 Mental Misstep, 4 Thoughtseize, etc., then having permanents like Hedron Crab and Mesmeric Orb that can mill a lot of cards over time for their minimal mana investment will be more important than speed milling spells, like Vision Charm and Tome Scour. By slowing the deck down though, we will have to be able to deal with creatures better. Perhaps something like Propaganda and Overburden could stall aggressive decks enough? By slowing down our clock we can also consider more expensive cards, like Traumatize for instance.

@Sankido - I agree that Leyline of the Void is a fantastic sideboard answer for Emrakul or graveyard-centric decks. Twincast definitely shouldn't be in a super fast build, for the same reasons Fork doesn't see play in burn decks.

[Darkenslight]

There's also Meishin, the Mind Cage if you're attempting the Sanity Grinding win.

[Merckinator]

I'm pretty sure we do not want Sanity Grinding. To make that card good, you need to make the rest of the deck bad.

[Sims]

I'm pretty sure we do not want Sanity Grinding. To make that card good, you need to make the rest of the deck bad.

Hey now, don't hate on one of my most favorite fun decks ever.

You've never known hilarity than going to time in a standard tournament and taking 4 of the 5 extra turns only to have the guy be unable to draw on turn 5!

[Malchar]

Twincast copies will not trigger storm because the copies are never cast, they simply appear on the stack. However, there is some precedence for including it in the deck because burn decks occasionally use Fork. That said, I still think that Brain Freeze is worth it since you can probably hold it until a time when you could get 9, and it only costs 2.

As for Hedron Crab, I don't like it because it gives the opponent an out for all their removal spells. Even opposing aggro decks will enjoy using their burn spells to take it out, which could buy them extra time.

Also, Extirpate or Leyline of the Void should be included somewhere in the 75 to deal with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn et al. The unfortunate reality is that this deck suffers collateral damage from answers to the painter/grindstone decks. Extirpate doubles as an answer to combo decks. If you mill one of their pieces, you can nab it and prevent them from going off.

Stifle is also good at stopping Emrakul, and it's a solid card overall. It's good at stopping/delaying combo decks in general, so it seems like a great sideboard card.

I'm not sure that Brainstorm should make the cut. It's just a zero-sum cantrip that wastes a blue mana. Sure you can combo it with fetch, but you don't see burn decks using fetch+sensei's divining top. Both methods just waste valuable time and mana. They shouldn't be used unless you frequently find yourself losing because you don't have any cards left in hand.

[dahcmai]

If you have black anyway, why not just include the Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void package for some serious milling. Even in that case Leyline is useful for the mill against decks with an accidental Eldrazi or something and Helm can be scary on it's own just for milling and snagging something juicy on accident like a Goyf or Knight. Of course, it has that side effect of just outright winning on the spot too.

[Merckinator]

Helm of Obedience is a little expensive at a cmc of 4, but could be worth thinking about.

I like how you think, Malchar. I've had similar thoughts about Hedron Crab, from the goldfishing I've done he can provide quite a lot of milling with fetches for only costing 1 but you're entirely correct that it gives outs to creature removal eliminating some of our virtual card advantage. He is also fairly situational in my above list, drawing him after getting 3 lands in play means he might not mill any cards at all.

I essentially had just auto-included brainstorm since the list is blue and was playing a lot of fetches for Hedron Crab. I'll have to give cutting this card some thought and testing.

I love the idea of extirpate against combo, or leyline, and I also saw the card Ravenous Trap, which looks promising. I think Ravenous Trap might be better than leyline in all cases except when leyline is in your opening hand haha. Obviously Mindbreak Trap in sideboard could be used as well against storm.

Stifle seems like a great idea being cheap and either killing a storm trigger, emrakul trigger, or worst case killing a fetch (when you don't have an archive trap).

Twincast will have to be played with, it seems powerful being able to copy an Archive Trap or Visions of Beyond, but it does add 2 mana onto the cost of a spell so we'll have to see if that's reasonable.

[bruizar]

@ Merckinator and others

1) You can't stifle Emrakul
2) Hedron Crab makes every card you draw mill cards. If you draw lands without Hedron Crab, you are timewalking yourself.
3) Not playing stoneforge mystic is a huge mysti-err mistake. Sword of Body and Mind is the perfect card for this deck, and Batterskull / Swords to Plowshares actually give you a way to not get zerged before you can mill your opponent out. Also, Swords to Plowshares life-gain is irrelevant.


4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Hedron Crab
2 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Trapmaker's Snare

4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
1 Jace, Memory Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spellsnare

3 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island

@ Mind Funeral. The card is good, but there is no room. Trapmaker's Snare allows for much better sideboarding. (Ravenous Trap against Landstill/Dredge/43lands/Loam, Mindbreak Trap against Spiral Tide, and even perhaps Ricochet Trap against blue control with Ancestral Visions if you splash a Volcanic for it.)

Shelldock Isle can take care of the last couple of cards.

[Hopo]

@ Merckinator and others

1) You can't stifle Emrakul

Bullshit. Of course you can.

[bruizar]

Afaik it's a comes into play ability and Emrakul has protection from colored spells. Since Stifle is blue, it can't target Emrakul. Can someone verify this?

Oh lol, my bad, I completely misunderstood that you guys were talking about its shuffle ability, which is sort of more relevant to the topic :p Even so, I would rather have Trapmaker's Snare.

[sankido]

@bruizar: Not playing Mind Funeral is a big mistake cause in Legacy (if you are not playing against Lands) where people play quite few lands (plus removing lands from the library via fetchlands) you can easily mill 10 to 20 cards with it. And playing without Visions of Beyond is an even bigger mistake because after a couple of rounds you have 4 Ancestral Recalls in your deck. This card is the ONLY reason to think about this kind of deck. After all milling alone have never been a valid strategy (apart from combos like Painter's Servant or Brain Freeze).



2) Hedron Crab makes every card you draw mill cards. If you draw lands without Hedron Crab, you are timewalking yourself.

I didn't get it. Can you please explain that a little more?

With your Stoneforge Mystic-Plan you try something different. IMHO it is not a mill deck it's a deck that tries to win with different strategies but none seems to be very promising. Only 8 mill spells plus the crabs seems not enough in a format where counters and disruption are everywhere. The same goes to your trap sideboard plan. It doesn't seem focused enough.

[Hopo]

Afaik it's a comes into play ability and Emrakul has protection from colored spells. Since Stifle is blue, it can't target Emrakul. Can someone verify this?
All of that is totally wrong:
Emrakul has no 'comes into play' ability. Also, stifle does not target emrakul or any other source, it targets triggered or activated abilities.

[bruizar]

@bruizar: Not playing Mind Funeral is a big mistake cause in Legacy (if you are not playing against Lands) where people play quite few lands (plus removing lands from the library via fetchlands) you can easily mill 10 to 20 cards with it. And playing without Visions of Beyond is an even bigger mistake because after a couple of rounds you have 4 Ancestral Recalls in your deck. This card is the ONLY reason to think about this kind of deck. After all milling alone have never been a valid strategy (apart from combos like Painter's Servant or Brain Freeze).

Mind Funeral may be very good, I just don't know what to cut with it. At the minimum, you remove 4 lands which is good in itself.

I'm not sure if Visions of Beyond is good enough. Ancestral Recall is good, yes. But it may be a win more card since if you have someone down to 20 cards, you would rather have a Mind Funeral / Glimpse to finish the game.



I didn't get it. Can you please explain that a little more?

With your Stoneforge Mystic-Plan you try something different. IMHO it is not a mill deck it's a deck that tries to win with different strategies but none seems to be very promising.Only 8 mill spells plus the crabs seems not enough in a format where counters and disruption are everywhere. The same goes to your trap sideboard plan. It doesn't seem focused enough.


On Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of Body and Mind is a recurring Glimpse the Unthinkable that protects against Jace, Knight, Goyf, Nacatl and Merfolk.dec. The Wolf tokens provide chump-blockers that will allow you to get a few extra turns because of the damage prevented that way. Batterskull is a way can provide an alternative win, as well as give you 8 life per turn to delay the inevitable alpha strike. I like Shelldock Isle too though. They both help you dig into business but Shelldock Isle gives you the card at a reduced mana cost.

On Hedron Crab
Lands don't 'do' anything to further your milling plan, so every time you draw a land, that could have been a business-spell. Hedron Crab turns your entire mana-base into cards that help you further your plan. Turn 1 Hedron Crab, turn 2 fetch+glimpse means there are 36 or 35 cards left, depending on who's on the play. If you play an archive trap, that's another 14 cards, meaning there could be only 22 cards left on turn 2. Now, if you don't draw into any more business spells, OR if they get countered, at least you can slow roll Hedron Crab into a win.

Emrakul
My bad, I will refrain from discussing that card further until I dive into the rules a bit more. No need to make a fool out of myself :p


I also think that you HAVE to play with more Trapmaker's Snares. perhaps 4. Natural Order/Progenitus is too common, and you need to be able to get Ravenous Trap in response.

[Sims]

I also think that you HAVE to play with more Trapmaker's Snares. perhaps 4. Natural Order/Progenitus is too common, and you need to be able to get Ravenous Trap in response.

Trapmakers Snare -> Ravenous Trap doesn't stop Progentius.

Prog, like Darksteel and Blightsteel Colossus, is a replacement effect. Instead of going into the graveyard it's shuffled into the library. You cannot Trap them with the Prog in the yard because it never goes to the yard. The Eldrazi Titans you are able to trap because they have a triggered ability when they go to the graveyard.

Trap is a good idea, it's will stop the Emrakuls out of the SnT decks, but it Progenitus just shrugs it off.

[Merckinator]

Mind Funeral is pretty good and might deserve a spot in the deck.

Visions of Beyond says 20 cards in their graveyard not only 20 left in their library, there'll be 30-ish left in their library.

I do like Sword of Body and Mind but I don't think we have the threats to hit the opponent with it consistently and you're slowing the deck down a lot with stoneforge and swords. Visions will also be a bad cantrip, until you've milled the first 20 cards.

Hedron Crab is awesome turns 1-2 with fetches, milling near 12 for only one mana and running fetches, but turn 4-ish it'll be basically a dead card.

Trapmaker's Snares might be nice, allowing you to maybe run less than 4 archive trap or to find ravenous trap or mindbreak trap when necessary.

[bruizar]

Hedron Crabs in multiples will end games pretty quickly though. Visions of Beyond does look like a card that you want to play, because its particularly easy to setup for this deck. The more I think about Visions, the more I want to play with Mind Funeral. If I would play visions, I would definitely also play Hedron Crab.

Hedron Crab + Fetch + Archive Trap = 6 + 13 + 1 for fetch used to trigger archive trap = 20. Visions online turn 2.

Glimpse + Archive Trap = 10 + 13 + 1. Visions online turn 2

Mind Funeral = 13.3 cards on average assuming your opponent keeps a 2-land hand. If your opponent has played 2 fetch and 1 non fetch land, that would average out on 16 cards from funeral. At 4 fetch played (8 lands filtered) you will hit 20 cards.

Therefore, it's is best in the lategame, when your opponent (or previous mill cards) have done their job removing some of their lands already. I would not run more than 2 Mind Funerals, since you want traps or glimpses early on.

[rufus]

Mind Funeral = 13.3 cards on average assuming your opponent keeps a 2-land hand. If your opponent has played 2 fetch and 1 non fetch land, that would average out on 16 cards from funeral. At 4 fetch played (8 lands filtered) you will hit 20 cards.

Even at 13.3 cards, Mind Funeral is doing a lot of grinding. It might not be as efficient as Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable but it's also not that terrible.

...This does make me wonder about possible interactions with:

Hedron Crab
Mind Funeral
Archive Trap
and cards like
New Frontiers or Collective Voyage and Scapeshift.

[bruizar]

Even at 13.3 cards, Mind Funeral is doing a lot of grinding. It might not be as efficient as Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable but it's also not that terrible.

...This does make me wonder about possible interactions with:

Hedron Crab
Mind Funeral
Archive Trap
and cards like
New Frontiers or Collective Voyage and Scapeshift.

Scapeshift searching for 4 Shelldock Isles, all triggering hedron crabs :x. Searching for fetch is probably better though, 24 cards per Hedron Crab!

[rufus]

Scapeshift searching for 4 Shelldock Isles, all triggering hedron crabs :x. Searching for fetch is probably better though, 24 cards per Hedron Crab!

I'm not sure that Scapeshift - or the other two - are all that great without Hedron Crab though.

[kinda]

I'm pretty sure the control route is what this deck needs. Visions is a house but dedicated mill isn't fast enough. Extirpate can be good but it's really just a concession to Emrakul.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Hedron Crab
2 Sword of Body and Mind

4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
3 Mind Funeral

4 Visions of Beyond

3 Mental Misstep
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 extirpate
2 Path to Exile
1 Daze

2 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island

[neosatus]

Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Body and Mind seem terrible. You'd have to spend turns 2, 3 and 4 playing the Mystic, cheating in the sword and equipping it to the Mystic, just to mill 10 assuming you can get through unblocked.

[yaufent]

I have seen someone splash red for burning wish, then I am thinking if it is possible for us to splash white for chant/silence effect in the SB. We can easily fit in 1 to 2 tundra in the main and petal also can produce white mana. That would work for those who have duals but doesn't have thoughtseize.

[bruizar]

..

[kinda]

Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Body and Mind seem terrible. You'd have to spend turns 2, 3 and 4 playing the Mystic, cheating in the sword and equipping it to the Mystic, just to mill 10 assuming you can get through unblocked.

I'm not convinced yet either but you're evaluation does not do the card justice. It's 6 mana over 2-3 turns for a mill 10 on a stick that has protection from most creatures and creates a chump blocker. If stoneforge dies the sword can still be equipped to another one or the crab.

[Qweerios]

Am I the only one that plays Counterspell in UB Mill? Don't play the sword package, its too cute. Damnation looks much better.

[Malchar]

First of all, you can stifle Emrakul's shuffling ability. You can also stifle annihilator and the extra turn.

Next, I'm currently testing this build:

4x visions of beyond
3x twincast
1x propaganda

4x archive trap
4x glimpse the unthinkable
4x mind funeral
4x brain freeze

4x hedron crab
4x mesmeric orb

4x go for the throat
4x inquisition of kozilek

4x underground sea
2x island
1x swamp
1x misty rainforest
4x bloodstained mire
4x flooded strand
4x polluted delta

sideboard
3x submerge
4x leyline of the void
4x annul
4x duress

I still like the idea of using extirpate although it isn't in this build. My current testing meta is aggro heavy, which is why I'm using propaganda. I might change it to a 2x as well.

The go for the throat and inquisition of kozilek are the flexible slots. I'd like to include more milling, but there just isn't any that's worth it at this point. You basically need to mill at least 7 per card for it to be worthwhile.

Visions of Beyond is complete gold in this deck. Also, I'm actually pretty happy with hedron crab just because it mills so much. It is unfortunate that it eats all the removal though.

As for the sideboard, annul is for wheel of sun and moon, which blows this deck up. Even with leyline of the void, wheel still wins, so we have to be able to deal with it.
Submerge is for maverick, zoo, or anything with valid targets. Leyline is for graveyard combo or emrakul. Duress is for combo. This slot could also be extirpate actually. Or extirpate could go maindeck.

I actually kind of like the idea of using stoneforge mystic. I also have considered dark confidant, although usually the problem is not card advantage, but just speed. We really just need some way to slow down creatures. White might be good because you get better removal like swords to plowshares.

[baghdadbob]

My Current List

1X Reanimate
1x New Jace
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
4x Extripate
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
2x Sewer Nemesis
4x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Twin Cast
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Deta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
3x Swamp
2x Halimar Depths

SB

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Echoing Truth
3x Annul
4x Stifle

[bruizar]

A conspired Memory Sluice is the closest equivalent we have to lightning bolt.

53/8=6.625 needed
20/3=6.6 needed

You don't want to tap a Stoneforge Mystic for Memory Sluice though, so the only target is Hedron Crab :/

[tsabo_tavoc]

A conspired Memory Sluice is the closest equivalent we have to lightning bolt.

53/8=6.625 needed
20/3=6.6 needed

You don't want to tap a Stoneforge Mystic for Memory Sluice though, so the only target is Hedron Crab :/

You need 2 U/B creatures to conspire, Memory Sluice is unplayable.

I like your list, it is the closest to a Tier 2 deck in this thread. I would find space for 4 Brainstorm, especially since you have only 19 lands while Jace and SFM are mana intensive.

[bruizar]

Perhaps in the sideboard Rootwater Thief could help against Progenitus.

There is also Praetor's Grasp, Extract, Cranial Extraction, Memoricide, Hide//Seek and Sadistic Sacrament.

Rootwater Thief
Rootwater Thief looks very mana intensive compared to those cards, but it can carry Swords with evasion (flying).

Extract
Extract is probably the most efficient way to get rid of Progenitus, which is very good against Natural Order, but it's still useless against Show and Tell decks that run a bunch of Emrakul's and Progenitus'.

Hide // Seek
I like this card. It gives you 10 life for Progenitus, which is a lot. If you splash for a Volcanic Island, you could also cast Hide on Batterskull / Swords of X/Y, or get rid of Wheel of Sun and Moon.

These type of cards are important for a number of reasons.
1) You get to count the number of cards and number of lands left, to calculate the average Mind Funeral.
2) You need to deal with Natural order / Progenitus
3) You need to deal with Emrakuls/Progenitus'

[Qweerios]

I prefer a more counterspell heavy list:


Creatures (4)
4 Hedron Crab

Spells (36)
4 Brainstorm
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mental Misstep
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral

Artifacts (4)
4 Mesmeric Orb

Lands (20)
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand

Sideboard (15)
4 Extirpate
4 Duress
3 Submerge
2 Propaganda
2 Engineered Plague


I see no reasons not to play Brainstorm with 13 fetches, it is too good. Mesmeric Orb is a bit lacking in power level but for now it gets the job done. The more I play this deck, the more I wish I had Daze somewhere because all of the mill spells are sorceries and leaving mana open for counters rarely occurs.

[Malchar]

Mesmeric Orb also works great with brainstorm and jace 2 because you mill yourself. Could also use sensei's divining top + counterbalance perhaps?

I also like the idea of using Trapmaker's Snare. Archive Trap is the best mill card in the deck, and the opponent is frequently forced into triggering it even if they know you have it. The problem is that after they trigger it the first time, you unload all your traps in hand. After that, the chances of drawing into another trap later is much lower, so the opponent will freely continue to trigger the trap. By using the snare, you increase the odds of drawing a trap, which you can use to punish the opponent for retriggering.

You can also use ravenous trap sideboard and be able to tutor for it more reliably. However, it doesn't answer wheel of sun and moon, and actually it's only really useful against dredge. It doesn't help against emrakul, so I prefer leyline of the void still.

I think that we could still use one or two more efficient mill spells. That is, ones that mill for at least 8. Hopefully we will get something like that in the next block, which is supposed to be graveyard focused. Until then, we should just use some kind of hybrid package with stoneforge, counters, or discard as backup.

[baghdadbob]

I've been playtesting this deck a bunch irl. It's fairly strong I must say.

3x Mental Mistep
2x Reanimate
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
3x Extripate
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
4x Thoughtseize
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Twin Cast
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Deta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
4x Swamp

I want the sideboard to transform into either reanimator or show and tell. I'm not sure what would be easier. I suppose reanimator because of the 2x mainboard reanimates. What do you guys think?

[bruizar]

I'm considering a splash for either Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyfs. Goyf is just really huge really quick, and it provides a serious fallback strategy to the deck. Knight of the Reliquary can assure landfall (Triggering Hedron Crabs for 6 mill each turn) or being a win condition on its own.

Sideboarding into reanimator looks strong, because they will probably cast Wheel of Sun and Moon on themselves, giving you plenty of time exploit your own Graveyard.

[Malchar]

Reanimate is actually a great idea maindeck. I'll have to test this out because it seems like the perfect solution to the problem I was having. Tarmogoyf maindeck also makes sense. It could be a problem to get all three colors in time, but nothing costs double colored except twincast. Using these to fill the weak slots in my deck should make it much stronger.

[catmint]

Reanimate is a funny idea. :) Makes want to test it again... Might be just a sideboard card. renaimating a lavamancer a stoneforge mystic or a lord of atlantis is not that good and there are still some decks out there running very few/no creatures.

I don't like the idea with SFM using the sword to mill, because it eats a lot of spots and you need to connect with the sword. Tt is hard to ensure that crab or SFM really connect. It also its a lot of spots and you loose flexibility adding the package and going into white.

I also love crabs, archive trap and other good mill spells together with twincast in general (helps also with counterwars). I also thought about adding a crucible to get more value out of crabs with additional value for mishra's/wastelands.

The Big Problem that this deck has is versus all decks that utilize the graveyard like dredge, loam, breakfast (or run emrakul). I dont think "spot" GY removal is enough, so Leyline of the Void is a necessity. Unfortunately that turns off Visions of Beyond, which was the reason I looked at the deck again in the first place and if you don't have it in your opening hand you do not have a gameplan at all.

How about any sideboards? did you guys think about some matchups`?

[Merckinator]

I agree that Reanimate might just be a sideboard card, but that depends on your metagame.

It seems most of us are agreeing that SFM is too slow and awkward for this deck.

Obviously the big struggle for this deck is decks that abuse the graveyard and decks with Progenitus/Emrakul in them.

Emrakul can be caught in the graveyard, so "spot" GY removal is effective as well as Ravenous Trap.

Progenitus can't be caught in the GY since his is a replacement effect, but at least his only shuffles himself back into the library haha. The only real solution to this is Leyline of the Void.

Ravenous Trap seems great against decks that like having a GY to abuse, but unfortunately this and Leyline will turn off Visions. Which is the big draw to play this deck, lol.

How useful would running Stifle MD be? You can easily counter an Emrakul or Prog trigger, a fetchland (if you have no traps, lol), storm-combo, and I'm sure a number of other useful things.

Rules Question: If I stifle a prog trigger, so he goes into GY, can I then Extirpate him? Basically is his protection [ON] while he's in GY, and can you Reanimate a shroud creature?

[Sims]

Rules Question: If I stifle a prog trigger, so he goes into GY, can I then Extirpate him? Basically is his protection [ON] while he's in GY, and can you Reanimate a shroud creature?

No. There is no Progenitus trigger to stifle. It's a replacement effect and can't be stifled, therefore it never goes to the graveyard.

edit: To answer the other half of the question, if you were to somehow cheat the rules and get Progenitus into your opponents graveyard, extirpate/reanimate/etc would work because they only have shroud or protection in play, not in any other zone.

[phonics]

Would 4x leyline 4x unmask be any good? dead leylines could just feed unmasks, while md leylines help against a lot of decks (reanimate, dredge, any loam, even painter welder).

[Tru3z3rox]

Would 4x leyline 4x unmask be any good? dead leylines could just feed unmasks, while md leylines help against a lot of decks (reanimate, dredge, any loam, even painter welder).

I used to run this deck quite well. MD leylines were amazing. It wins you so many random matches and doesn't care about emrakul at all.

[Merckinator]

Thank you, Sims, for clearing that up for me.

4 MD Leyline might be nice but it does also turn off the Visions of Beyond, which is something to think about if considering running it. Ravenous Trap can also turn it off though too.

[bruizar]

Why not just cast Ravenous Trap after you've played Visions of Beyond?

[Malchar]

Note that leyline of the void does not stop progenitus. When two replacement effects try to modify the same thing, the owner of the affected object chooses the order in which they apply. In this case, the opponent owns progenitus, so they will choose to have progenitus's ability apply before the leyline. Progenitus will be shuffle into the library and then the leyline will have nothing to do. This is the same problem as with wheel of sun and moon (which appears in maverick sideboards). However, this doesn't matter that much, because progenitus is only one card. It's possible to mill them down to just progenitus, in which case they can draw it and then lose next turn. Wheel of sun and moon is much more dangerous if it ever hits play.

I still think that leyline is worth it because it beats Eldrazi triggers, dredge, and any other random graveyard combo. Losing visions of beyond doesn't matter that much because if you land a leyline against graveyard combo, you're in great shape anyway. In my playtesting, I found that visions of beyond is amazing, but not necessary to win.

Stifle maindeck is also an option since it's a great card overall, and it can also stop eldrazi triggers. However, there is some tension in stifling fetchland because then you can't use archive trap.

[baghdadbob]

This is my current deck...

4x Mental Mistep
3x Reanimate
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
3x Extripate
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
4x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Twin Cast
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Deta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Halimar Depths
3x Swamp



This is my current reanimate sb...

1x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Jin Gitaxias
2x Iona

[kinda]

This is my current deck...

4x Mental Mistep
3x Reanimate
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
3x Extripate
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
4x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Twin Cast
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Deta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Halimar Depths
3x Swamp



This is my current reanimate sb...

1x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Jin Gitaxias
2x Iona

Reanimate?

[baghdadbob]

Yes reanimate. You can reanimate your opponents creatures. Thus giving you another win condition/stalling option. Also playing 3 maindeck means that your s/b isn't super awkward. It may seem weird but give it a try it's pretty sweet.

[Kinderschreck]

Ich wouldn't play reanimate in a meta where MM is everything and burn spells are highly played.
Maybe animate dead could be better?

[baghdadbob]

Never once seen burn in my area. Also I have my own mental misteps, seizes, and fow's to battle over a reanimate (which I probably wouldn't unless it was vital). Reanimates main purpose is stalling, occasionally beating down ftw, and making the reanimatation s/b for playing fast decks easy to transition into. I have however cut down to 2 m/b reanimates in order to not give my opponent too much info game 1. Really don't want to see them board in graveyard hate and with Gitaxian Probe as common as it is now they could have reason to. The great thing about this deck is the game one is for the most part fairly easy against several decks. The current legacy meta in my area is based so they play very few win conditions. Often times a turn one 'seize into extraction, turn 2 trap with extripate in hand is enough to win games or atleast stall them enough before you mill there library, with them digging for a wincon. This is my latest version I have been running...

4x Mental Mistep
2x Reanimate
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
3x Extripate
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
4x Thoughtseize
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Deta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
3x Bojuku Bog
1x Swamp

Sideboard

2x Reanimate
4x Exhume
3x Entomb
3x Jin Gitaxias
3x Iona

[Smea.gol.lum]

My current version is:
4 x FOW
4 x Mental Misstep
3 x Daze
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Visions of beyond
4 x Archive Trap
4 x Hedron Crab (absolute house, often mills for 12 or more)
3 x Brain Freeze (this card makes it much more difficult to play the deck correctly, but it's good)
4 x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Open Slots (like Trapmaker's Snare)
20 lands:
4 x Ghost Quarter
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Flooded Strand
4 x Island
3 x Underground Sea

What the deck lacks, is a good mill card for CMC 1 that mills for at least 7, but Visions of beyond is insane once you have milled 20 cards.

Sideboard:
4 x Submerge
4 x Serum Powder
4 x Leyline of the Void
3 x Chain of Vapor

You could also try to make a transform sideboard into a reanimator deck, just mill yourself via crab, glimpse or brain freeze ;)

[mishrazz]

My casual Legacy deck as of now. Please post results if you find any from Mill decks in Legacy Tourneys.
I'm very curious if they can make good results.

CREATURES
4 Hedron Crab

ENCHANTMENTS (1)
1 Animate Dead

SORCERIES (15)
4 Mind Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Damnation
4 Tome Scour
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

INSTANTS (15)
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Archive Trap
2 Trapmaker’s Snare
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce

PLANESWALKERS (1)
1 Jace, Memory Adept

ARTIFACTS (3)
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge

LANDS (21)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Watery Grave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Energy Field
1 Damnation
2 Spell Pierce
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Capsize

[mishrazz]

How about splashing in a couple of tundras for path to exile, the "search your library for a basic land" effect could lure them into the Archive Trap as well as getting rid of a creature. Anyone know of other cards that makes Archive Trap more effective?

[baghdadbob]

After playing the hell outta this deck irl I now realize it needs LDV.

Discuss...

[Greenpoe]

How about splashing in a couple of tundras for path to exile, the "search your library for a basic land" effect could lure them into the Archive Trap as well as getting rid of a creature. Anyone know of other cards that makes Archive Trap more effective?

Ghost Quarter? Maralen? Merchant Scroll might be worth a shot, since it'll fetch the best mill card in the deck.

[mishrazz]

After playing the hell outta this deck irl I now realize it needs LDV.

I agree. In a blue/black deck like this, you need a reason not to play it.
It will help you find a bounce or removal spell when you need it the most. I think i will start off with trying out one, and maybe add another if it's all that.

Good thinking Bob. I hope there might show up something in Innistrad that will make the mill deck even better.

[baghdadbob]

My current list...

4x Go For The Throat
2x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Lim Dul's Vault
4x Glimpse The Unthinkable
4x Archive Trap
4x Visions Of Beyond
4x Hedron Crab
4x Mind Funeral
4x Thoughtseize
4x Surgical Extraction
4x Force of Will
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
2x Bojuku Bog
1x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Reanimate
1x Animate Dead
1x Exhume
2x Show and Tell
2x Entomb
3x Jin Gitaxias
3x Iona

The other list i'm working on is similar but makes the game 2 much better it's something like -4 Go for the throat +4 Mental Misstep -1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Veldalken Shackles??? Being able to respond to a misstep with your own for reanimate; or a spell snare for your exhume/animate dead game 2 can be crucial. However is it more crucial than not being pounded to death by a creature equipped with a sword of relevance? I don't think so. Our deck is not really meant to combo off super fast, untill game 2.

Other cards I wish there was room for slash are considering in some number...
-Phyrexian Metamorph
-Threads Of Disloyalty
-Vedalken Shackles
-Chrome Mox
-Mental Mistep
-Maze of Ith
-Jace with more prison elements game one, making the transformational s/b much more outta left field.

Thoughts?

[Infinitium]

I think that not only are you trying to build what still amounts to a subpar burn deck, but you are trying to do it with control cards in lieu of spells that actually matters (ie more mill). Also no Visions?

EDIT: Oh wait, Visions. Rest still stands.

[baghdadbob]

Did you even read the deck list?

[mishrazz]

My current list. @bob: Interessting choice with the shackles, let me know how that turns out.
I added a couple of Path2exile for spot removal, and it also has great dynamic with the Archive trap. Also i put in 1 Oboro, place in the clouds to entertain the crabs.
I chose to run a small discard package instead of counters. wanna see how that works out..
The one cryptic command is mainly for creature tapping and card draw, but i want to test it some more. SB is open for changes. But the deck needs playtesting. Luckily there is plenty of standard and Legacy players at the local game shop.
Time to Mill big, or go home :cool:



CREATURES (4)
4 Hedron Crab

ENCHANTMENTS (1)
1 Animate Dead

SORCERIES (16)
4 Mind Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Damnation
4 Tome Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

INSTANTS (16)
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Archive Trap
1 Lim Dul's vault
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
1 Cryptic Command


ARTIFACTS (2)
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

LANDS (21)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Oboro, place in the clouds

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Energy Field
1 Damnation
2 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Capsize
1 Trapmaker's snare

[baghdadbob]

I dig your list dude. I'm still not 100 percent sold on tome scour though. How has it been performing for you? Shackles is iffy and I haven't playtested enough to say if it's worse than control magic yet...

[mishrazz]

I dig your list dude. I'm still not 100 percent sold on tome scour though. How has it been performing for you? Shackles is iffy and I haven't playtested enough to say if it's worse than control magic yet...

Thanks! the deck was performing well the other day. It was very good against quality standard decks, but against top notch Legacy decks... well, it's hard. I stole a game against stax every now and then, but turn one trinisphere or chalice on 1 is no picnic.
I wanted Damnation more often than it chose to show. So i think i will play another one.
As for Tome scour, well.. it feels like using a shock in a burn deck. It kinda belongs in there, but it is the weakest link. But then again, when opponent has 20 cards left, a single tome scour takes 25% of whats left. Kozilek has been performing very well, so i am considering trading the tome scour for more discard and mass removal.
The hedron crabs and surgical extractions are absolute nuts in this deck.

But considering all the hard Legacy match-ups, i am seriously considering switching this deck over to the modern format. It might do a lot better in that company, and most of the key cards stays in. Feels like deserting maybe, but i have to remain i realist, and find a weight class that better matches the deck until new cards give more muscle to the deck.

Any thoughts?
:confused: