[DTB] Blade Control

[SirTylerGalt]

I really like Michael Bernat's list from the invitational.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60172

With so many shardless bug and tempo running rampant in my metagame, baleful strix is the silver bullet for this deck. If they destroy it, you are still a card ahead.

I did cut some of his discards for more lingering souls though. What can i say, i just love that card :tongue:

I also like some of his ideas.

I wonder why he plays 4 Kor Firewalkers, though... Does he really hate Burn? Submerge is also rarely seen in Esper Blade sideboards. I'm not sure about the 1-of Flusterstorm maindeck, but hey, I play a Misdirection maindeck :)

I also wonder if he plays 2 Jaces instead of 3 for availability reasons, or if he prefers to lower his curve. I've been considering going down to 2 Jaces, but I'm not sure if that's the right play...


Here is what I am considering for tonight:

// Artifact [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

// Creature [10]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

// Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sorcery [5]
1 Ponder
1 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

// Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict


I was considering a 24th land to ensure my land drops against tempo decks, but I will try 23 lands + 1 Ponder + 1 Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder and SdT let me find lands in the early game, and powerful 1-of's in the late game... I'm trying a split of discard and counterspells. Instead of playing the usual 2 Inquisition of Kozilek / 2 Thoughtseize, I play only 2 Thoughtseize, and play more counterspells. That way, I still have a few discard spells against combo :)

The Lingering Souls might be better as a 4th Strix or a 2nd Snapcaster. I had to reduce the number of creatures to play Supreme Verdict maindeck... I also want to move the 4th FoW to the maindeck, but I don't know what to cut. Maybe go down to 2 Jaces?


I think I will also play Blade Control at the BoM, with True-Name Nemesis. I'm not yet sure if I want to play Esper Blade for Strix + Discard + Toxic Deluge or Patriot with a small red splash for Pyroblast / Blood Moon.

[rancOr_]

I like ur list. I will also be playing Blade Control at BoM. Going forward I'm looking to play something like 4stoneforge,4snapcaster,3 TNN as creature base. Basically I am replacing my Lingering Souls(3) for TNN. Im not sure TNN and Baleful Strix belong in the same list as TNN probably does a better job at that. I would rather have more snapcasters to gain value and be better against combo decks. I have tested 2 Toxic Deluge SB and I really like them so far. Apart from maybe hitting a snapcaster of your own the card is really good, especially when u dont play with Lingering Souls anymore. Also I prefer TNN in UWB Blade then in UWR,although there is something to say for being able to play blood moon.. Greetz-

[SirTylerGalt]

I like ur list. I will also be playing Blade Control at BoM. Going forward I'm looking to play something like 4stoneforge,4snapcaster,3 TNN as creature base. Basically I am replacing my Lingering Souls(3) for TNN. Im not sure TNN and Baleful Strix belong in the same list as TNN probably does a better job at that. I would rather have more snapcasters to gain value and be better against combo decks. I have tested 2 Toxic Deluge SB and I really like them so far. Apart from maybe hitting a snapcaster of your own the card is really good, especially when u dont play with Lingering Souls anymore. Also I prefer TNN in UWB Blade then in UWR,although there is something to say for being able to play blood moon.. Greetz-

Thanks :)

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here... But why do you prefer TNN in Esper Blade? I would think that it would be better in UWr, since it solves one of the problems of the red splash: the lack of good creatures to carry equipment. Esper Blade lists can play Lingering Souls and/or Baleful Strix, which means they have many great equipment carriers alongside Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Clique, and Venser. The red splash only gives you Grim Lavamancer, which is not that great, so you often end up playing only blue and white creatures... With the printing of TNN, the red splash now has a very good equipment carrier, which makes it comparatively better. As a thought experiment, if TNN ends up being superior to Baleful Strix / Lingering Souls, then both splashs will have the same creature base of 4 SFM 4 Snapcaster 4 TNN, and they will then be compared across other dimensions (instants, sorceries, SB cards...).

Also, the Red splash has REB / Pyroblast to counter TNN against Merfolk and in the mirror match :)


That said, I think I will go with Esper, because I love Toxic Deluge and all the SB options ^^

[ivanpei]

My red splash does not run any TNN because red has an additional creature that other splashes don't have: Grim Lavamancer. A creature base of: 4 Sfm, 3 Clique, 3 Grim and 4 Snapcasters is more than enough. Also, red gives you bolt which makes playing a full set of Snapcasters worth while.

TNN takes the 3 drop slot so I will have to cut some cliques or Snapcasters to fit it. I don't see that happening because the red splash already dominates the creature matchups. Between grim, bolts, Stp and Snapcaster, mid range and aggro will get torched. TNN is not at all necessary.

[Esper3k]

Plus Clique really helps against the combo matchups which the red versions have a harder time against.

[SirTylerGalt]

My red splash does not run any TNN because red has an additional creature that other splashes don't have: Grim Lavamancer. A creature base of: 4 Sfm, 3 Clique, 3 Grim and 4 Snapcasters is more than enough. Also, red gives you bolt which makes playing a full set of Snapcasters worth while.

TNN takes the 3 drop slot so I will have to cut some cliques or Snapcasters to fit it. I don't see that happening because the red splash already dominates the creature matchups. Between grim, bolts, Stp and Snapcaster, mid range and aggro will get torched. TNN is not at all necessary.

I forgot to mention that I am on the Rest in Peace SB plan, which means I try to minimize graveyard dependency in the maindeck to avoid anti-synergies when I bring in RiP post-board. With that in mind, red does not give me any good creatures, and I am left with blue and white creatures (SFM, SCM, Clique, Venser, Restoration Angel...). The black splash gives you Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Lingering Souls (those last two have a GY dependency).

Also, when I tried Lavamancer in the past, I felt like it was hard to feed with this deck, since you don't play that many cantrips, and it also competes with your Snapcaster Mages. When I tried it, it didn't do much: if I play it T1 to prevent a T1 Deathrite Shaman, my opponent just refrains from playing creatures until he can kill it with it with a Decay / Bolt... When I wait for my opponent to play a threat before casting it, my opponent gets to untap with a Shaman / Confidant. But maybe I'm playing it wrong.



On another note, I went 3-1 with Esper StrixBlade yesterday at my local.

I played the list I posted above, with some small changes:
MD:
+1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Supreme Verdict

SB:
+1 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Zealous Persecution
-1 Cabal Therapy

I forgot to put the Verdict in the deck instead of the SCM before the tournament. It would have helped against the Elves MU.
I didn't play Cabal Therapy. I felt that it was better in Esper Blade lists that play 4+ other discard spells. Since I only play 2 Thoughtseize, it's less powerful.
I didn't have a Zealous Persecution. I sorely missed it against Elves. It would have also been good for the Storm matchup (to kill his goblins), though I won without it.

Going forward, I want to play either a second E.E. MD, or a Supreme Verdict.

// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
[/cards]


Round 1 - Food Chain / Griffin combo - 2-0

Round 2 - Weird MUD - 2-0

Round 3 - Elves - 0-2
He overwhelmed me both games, and I didn't find my answers (E.E., Verdict...). I had a Jitte in G1, but no flying creature to equip it

Round 4 - TES - 2-0
I cast Thoughtseize in both games. I would have lost if those were Spell Pierce, since he had tons of mana.

G1 I knew he was on Storm. We both mulled to 6, and I found FoW + Spell Pierce, then later Snapcaster + Clique + Thoughtseize.

G2 I mulled to 6 and kept Thoughtseize, SFM * 2, lands * 3. He probed me T1 but was uneable to combo off. My T1 Thoughtseize slowed him down enough for me to draw counterspells. At some point I had a board of SFM and Clique equipped with SoFaF. He attempted to combo off, but I disrupted is plan with counters, and he was forced to wish for Diminishing Returns to try to go off again the next turn. During my turn, I had a devious plan. Since he had one card in hand, and my attack wouldn't have been letal, I declined to attack with the SoFaF-equipped Clique, pinging him simply with SFM. He thanked me for giving him a little hope, but was a little worried. On his turn, he casts Diminishing Returns. I respond with Notion Thief :) GG.


Ended up 3-1 (5th out of 30). I sadly didn't get any prize :( I think first got Underground Sea (Revised), second got Jace, and third some 40-50€ card which I forgot.

[Arsenal]

I'm still on Vidi's list and I think I'm just going to go -3 Lingering Souls, +3 True-Name Nemesis. Both are 3cc Sorcery-speed spells that you can either use defensively or offensively and both are difficult to "kill". I like that True-Name Nemesis makes us slightly less reliant on the graveyard while upping our blue count for FoW.

[SirTylerGalt]

When do you side out / side in Equipment?

At the BoM Trial today, I sided out Jitte for SOFAF against RUG Delver and MUD.

Against RUG, my reasoning was that SOFAF gives protection from Green, allowing me to kill Goyf and Goose, or attack through them. After the round (which I won 2-0, without seeing any SFM / Equipment), he told me that Jitte is very good against him due to the life gain / Delver killing ability.

The MUD player also told me that Jitte is very good against him, since it can kill Revoker, Metalworker, and Lodestone Golem...

Do you side SOFAF in only against combo and control? Do you ever side out Batterskull? Do you sometimes side all 3 in?

[Qweerios]

I only side in SoFaF when Jitte is dead to the matchup at hand. Jitte is better than any sword vs. RUG because it kills Delver, gains life, puts your creatures out of Bolt range after one connection. Jitte deters your opponent from swining with his threats if he doesn't have a blocker available.

[SirTylerGalt]

I only side in SoFaF when Jitte is dead to the matchup at hand. Jitte is better than any sword vs. RUG because it kills Delver, gains life, puts your creatures out of Bolt range after one connection. Jitte deters your opponent from swining with his threats if he doesn't have a blocker available.

How do you define "dead to the matchup at hand"? If the opponent is playing any amount of creatures, you keep Jitte in? Or when you need the lifegain (e.g. burn)? For example, would you keep Jitte versus Miracles, since it plays a few Clique / Snapcaster?

A corollary of my question would be: which do you fetch first? For example, against RUG, do you grab Batterskull or Jitte with your first SFM? If you grab BS, they can just kill the SFM to strand it in your hand, or Stifle the germ token...

[Esper3k]

I pretty much almost never bring Jitte out. Even when it's not backbreaking to an opponent, it still makes all of our crappy little guys a ridiculous threat.

[SirTylerGalt]

I pretty much almost never bring Jitte out. Even when it's not backbreaking to an opponent, it still makes all of our crappy little guys a ridiculous threat.

I think I didn't have enough bodies for Jitte to be really effective. I'm going to up the number of creatures for today's main event at the BoM :)

[Qweerios]

I side out Jitte vs. dedicated control and combo. Miracle's creatures are residual value, they don't actually care if you remove them. Against RUG it depends on if you can protect the skull or not.

[Higgs]

I wonder why he plays 4 Kor Firewalkers, though... Does he really hate Burn?

Punishing fire.

[Arsenal]

Thoughts on straight UW again now that TNN is out? One of the biggest reasons for Esper was Lingering Souls, but TNN seems as good/better than Souls at inevitability, defense, Equip-carrier.

[Piceli89]

Thoughts on straight UW again now that TNN is out? One of the biggest reasons for Esper was Lingering Souls, but TNN seems as good/better than Souls at inevitability, defense, Equip-carrier.

I was thinking about going back to straight UW as well. The only concern I have in dropping red (and possibly also black because of Zealous Persecution) is that we lose SB cars that are very strong against several of Stoneblade's weaknesses, namely:
- Jace;
- Weenie decks playing exclusively on board, like Maverick and the coming-back Death and Taxes, where Sulfur Elemental is absurd;
- A solution to Counterbalance, Geist, True-Name Nemesis-again, in the form of REB;
[- fast sweeper in the form of Pyroclasm.]
- A hard counter for Show and Tell.

While managing creatures is still doable in a different way via a mix of EEs and Supreme Verdict, I fear REB is hardly replaceable. If we deckbuild exclusively basing on important results by the last tournaments, though, such as BoM Paris and SCGs, REB's presence doesn't appear to be that mandatory, given all this flurry of ANTs, Elves and DnTs.

This very fact should lead us to notice something else: decks that are more likely to be successful are those based on very fast interactions, thus Jace, as much as he is strong, can be leveraged down to 2 copies maindeck now, with the third possibly in the sideboard. Broad removal aforementioned, on exchange, could provide a good MD configuration apt to fight the hordes of creatures. That SCG deckcheck featuring Stoneblade with 4 Verdicts had already got an intuition of the latest metagame shift, but imo that list was too much metagamed with narrow cards and definitely lacking on all-around good cards like Snap and Clique, which are tailor-made for this deck on many levels.

This is what I would play going straight UW.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
-22-

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-12-

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Supreme Verdict
-8-

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
-6-

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2-

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
-10-

Sideboard:

3 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
[1 Surgical Extraction]
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Back to Basics
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
[Other options: Venser, 2nd Disenchant, Pithing Needle, Entreat the Angels, Unexpectedly Absent..]


This sounds kinda old-school, pre-Delver era, although with the evergood RIP in sideboard.

Some notes:

- Manabase as smooth as possible. The minimum number of dual lands possible, the maximum of basics avaiable. This boosts solidity. I'm willing to lose to Punishing Fire, odds that Wasteland is going to solve the problem are tremendously low anyways. Academy Ruins is necessary, though.

- 10 counters may be excessive, but it gives a wide array of options, good resilience to spell-based combo decks md and play a sort of draw-go feeling in the first turns, which is where we eant to be. Snare is necessary to stop CB, Dark Confidant, and so on. Maybe a CSpell could be cut to favor an additional cantrip, which would strenghten the sideboard as well.

- SB is kinda balanced to fight combo more than creature since we are already putting our eggs there quite a bit from game 1. Back to Basics could be as cute as ineffective, and I highly suspect so. I'd just rather add more proactive cards or bombs; a couple of Entreat the Angels could also be thought against BGx grindy decks by tweaking MD a bit in order to reach 2 Tops.

I feel this deck could fight everything, yet struggling every fucking time because it doesn't provide uber-broken synergies or tremendous sequences hardly manageable by good portion of the format (as Shardless and Jund often do). It's still the best reactive deck in terms of balance and capability to switch roles as well as solidity and curve, so it may be worth a shot.


EDIT: I still think True Name Nemesis is not suited for Stoneblade conceived as the tradition "control-aggro" version which tries to peak in Jace and winning mainly by outresourcing the opponent. It is more suited for "light" versions ft. Delver, as Patriot is, or where you can accelerate into playing it on t2 via Hierarch or Shaman (Bant, Deathblade). By itself it doesn't solve any of the previous weak spots, except maybe for being the only dork that survives PFire against Jund.

[HSCK]

I think TNN is perfect for Stoneblade. I'm running Esper with 4 Basics and 23 lands that gives me a pretty stable mana base. TNN is the perfect equipment carrier, is strong on defense, can effortlessly pressure the opponent's life total or PWs, and can on its own beat Jund or Shardless BUG, both decks that are tough match-ups.

I think straight UW with a lot of counters is just not right for the format because you're not really doing anything good enough. Miracles does that job better and some variants already have Stoneforge in them.

I can see red being an okay splash, but I think it's behind UWR Delver in terms of effectiveness.

Deathblade is better off as Shardless BUG probably.

The complementary pieces of Strix, TNN, Souls, and discard I think fit best with Stoneblade as a control deck as it can be proactively strong when need be without losing effectiveness as a control deck.

[Arsenal]

Blade Control decks, even harkening back to the days of Standard Cawblade dominance, always had a "Squadron Hawk" type spell to provide an evasive offensive Equip-carrier that was inefficient for the opponent to kill while at the same time providing defense if you're on the Jace-ultimate plan. Squadron Hawk -> Spellstutter Sprite -> Lingering Souls. The next spell to slot in that role is TNN, no? Or is a "Squadron Hawk" type spell no longer needed for SFM-Jace decks to compete? Against fair decks, Souls is incredible at advancing our gameplan... can't TNN replace Souls while providing a bit more offensive beef?

[ac3eb]

Blade Control decks, even harkening back to the days of Standard Cawblade dominance, always had a "Squadron Hawk" type spell to provide an evasive offensive Equip-carrier that was inefficient for the opponent to kill while at the same time providing defense if you're on the Jace-ultimate plan. Squadron Hawk -> Spellstutter Sprite -> Lingering Souls. The next spell to slot in that role is TNN, no? Or is a "Squadron Hawk" type spell no longer needed for SFM-Jace decks to compete? Against fair decks, Souls is incredible at advancing our gameplan... can't TNN replace Souls while providing a bit more offensive beef?

I switched to esper blade as my main deck roughly two months ago since I enjoy playing it so much, and am still undecided on whether TNN fits in the lingering souls slot. I think TNN is inherently more powerful, but lingering souls is also huge in a lot of scenarios. If you are hard-pressed to resolve a Jace and/or are stuck on 3 mana, running out souls against a possible daze is great. It also plays VERY nicely with supreme verdict, which many lists run 2 of (1 in the main, 1 in the board). Another slight problem I have with TNN is that fetching basics in the early game becomes a lot more tricky. I've had quite a few games where you want to fetch a swamp for a T1 discard spell, and then T2 fetch plains for stoneforge mystic. This leaves you with no way of casting TNN up until turn 4 if you have 2 blue lands afterwards. It seems marginal, but I've found these lines of play to be very relevant, and which play nicely with lingering souls.

TNN does provide a higher blue count, and carries equipment like a boss so not sure how I feel about it. It also lets us run RIP without much care as it only hits snapcaster. I'll do some testing once I get a hold of TNN, but the switch doesn't seem as clear cut as some make it out to be. It lends itself to a slightly more aggressive version of esper control, IMO.

[rancOr_]

I've had quite a few games where you want to fetch a swamp for a T1 discard spell, and then T2 fetch plains for stoneforge mystic. This leaves you with no way of casting TNN up until turn 4 if you have 2 blue lands afterwards. It seems marginal, but I've found these lines of play to be very relevant, and which play nicely with lingering souls.

These are exactly my findings while testing TNN. I play with 10fetches 4basics and I always try to get basics first. I had quite alot of games where I -as u mentioned had to fetch t1 swamp and didnt get to double UU on turn 3; while I could have access to it turn 4. This can be quite awkward as u dont want to get wasted either while fetching a dual the first few turns. Thus I agree that a UWr shell is probably the best for TNN(if you would play it. Atm im not convinced its that good in uwb. I tested it replacing the 3 Lingering Souls but it just doesnt seem right at times...) I would consider a light red splash for EE on 3 and maybe some SB rebs. They are just too good with snapcaster to ignore. I have played alot of UWx Stoneforge in the past. Dropping the discard isnt that bad as it may seem at first sight because playing reactive instead of proactive actually fits snapcaster way better. I will test with a UWr shell (4snapcaster,4sfm,3TNN).

[Ghost588]

Here is what I'm currently considering:

Creatures 16
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

Spells 23

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Inquisition Kozilek
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sofi
1 Vindicate
1 EE

Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

I know this looks a lot like deathblade, which I hate, but I really like the idea of DRS for the obvious reasons such as ramp and additional clock.
I have not played much since the SCG Baltimore in June with Esper and I went 6-3. Granted that was months ago and the meta has changed, but I still love this deck. I replaced my spell pierces back then and I never looked back. I ran 3 FoW and a MD Counterspell and it was never much of a problem. I am considering of making the vindicate into a single Aven Mindcensor. I do like the discussion on the red splash a lot. I do miss Clique in this build as I have won many times due to her.

This has always been my pet deck, and now that I have time to get back into it I am very excited to play this again. Sorry if I'm all over the place. Just filled with excitement to have time to dedicate to MTG again.

[alohazendo]

Ok, my deck only somewhat resembles the basic Blade Control decks being discussed on this thread, but it has the basic elements. So far I've played it in four local tournaments, and have 3-1'd three times. Maybe it just works with the 20 or so guys who usually play Legacy around here, but I would appreciate outside opinions.

Creatures:
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Geist of St. Traft

Spells:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Stifle

Artifacts:
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands:
2x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Arid Mesa
3x Tundra
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Glacial Fortress

SB:
4x Supreme Verdict
3x Detention Sphere
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Rest in Peace
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
3x Flusterstorm

Most combo has provided very little trouble. Death and Taxes have accounted for two of the losses in the above 3-1's. RUG got me the other time. I have attempted to compensate with Verdict. I have done well against Jund, as mana trickery is why I built the deck.
Am I on the right thread? Without adding a splash color, any advice on how to deal with D&T?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I guess I will post my list here since Ghost did. Here's what I'm running, and I love it.

15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (Heavy discard meta, lotta Hymns around; Call it a meta-slot)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate

21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Give it a go on Cockatrice. I'm playing it irl but I don't have Cockatrice. I would like opinions so I can keep refining. Thanks.

-ABC

[klaus]

I guess I will post my list here since Ghost did. Here's what I'm running, and I love it.

15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (Heavy discard meta, lotta Hymns around; Call it a meta-slot)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate

21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Give it a go on Cockatrice. I'm playing it irl but I don't have Cockatrice. I would like opinions so I can keep refining. Thanks.

-ABC

Really love your list. It's pretty close to what I test with.
Just my two Pence:
Academy Ruins does not seem to pull its weight. Oh wait: recurring Strix seems beneficial - so nvm.
2 Pierce means the chance to see them early is rather slim and drawing them during the mid/late game is kind of meh, since you don't run any mana denial. I could see Snare/EE/Fluster Storm/Inquisition of K./Clique/Counter Spell/etc. performing better in those slots.

btw, here's a SB I could see working:
3 Rest in Peace
3 Spell Pierce (in certain MUs you really want them indeed)
2 Ethersworn Canonist / Tidehollow Sculler
3 Zealous Persecution/Engineered Plague (MVP against swarm Aggro and TNN)
2 EE
2 Abrupt Decay

[Pdingo]

Hey Guys a little Post what i think about Esperblade right now:

Esperblade is probably a very good choice right now. Why?
It have a good Match up against 90% of the Meta, when you know, how i Play the Deck right;)

Here is my Current List and i'm very happy with this List:


3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Lingering Souls
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Academy Ruins
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Marsh Flats

SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 2 Toxic Delunge

Card Choices:

But First a good Question? Why not Deathrite Shaman?

Simple Answer. Esper is not a Midrange Deck. Shaman is probably more a Midrange Card than a Card for a Hard Controll deck like Esperblade. A Controll Deck don't Need a T2 Geist or Nemesis.
With Nemesis became all Controll and Tempo Decks(UWR Delver, bUrg Temp) a little Push. I think Esperblade has the most Push with Nemesis.

So Fact is Disrupt and Controll your Oppenent and Play a Stoneblade and a Nemesis to end the Game.

The Choice Nemesis is simply:
A old esperblade list before Nemesis was existing, played 8-9 3cc Drops.(3-4 Souls, 1 Intuition, 1 Vindicate, 1 Clique, 3 Snapcaster yes cc 2 but for Flashback are they probably 3cc too.)
Now with Nemesis, we can cut some Cards. A lot People think we should take out the lingering souls for Nemesis. But i think that's a wrong cut!
Why? Because Souls give 2-4 flying Tokens and are very very good with Equipment too+ Controll Cards. But Fact is we don't deed 3-4 anymore. I Cut 1 Soul and 1 Intuition because we don't want them that much in each Match up.

The last cut was a hard cut. I liked the 3th Snapcaster a lot and he was soo good a lot of time. But i cut him because Nemesis is a new engine of a Controll Card. Anyway we do Play enough Removal and Disrupt.

Now we still Play 8-9 3cc Cards and the same Manabase. + the new Controll Engine True-Name Nemesis.

The Play to win a game is like before. Disrupt+counter+Removal= Controll your Oppenent and Play a Jace, mystic or with the New Card True-Name Nemesis to win.

Other Main Choices:

1 Vendillion Clique: Still a good 1off Card. To cut the Clique is just wrong. Sometimes it can hurts Combo Decks a lot.

2 Snapcaster: With 2 Mages we still have enough Controll engine and a True Name Nemesis can easy Take 1 place instead

4 Thoughtseize: Why not a 2-2 Split off iok and this? Because, We don't care about Life. I think Thoughtseize are better to crap a Batterskull and a Jace in a Controll Mirror and against Combo it's can be good to Crap a 4cc Card or some Griselbrands, Emrakuls or Dreamshalls and a good Stormplayer win the First game anyway when he Play right and we haven't enought hate.
It seems a little bit bader against Tempo. But anyway iok is still bad to against tempo and we would board it out anyway.^^

2 Spell Pierce: I like him a lot and cut a random Counterspell for a second one. Yes in random Situation is a Counterspell better. But the cc2 seems sometimes to bad. I like Pierce more to protect a Jace or a Nemesis or to Counter a BS or a Disrupt spell.

1 Ponder: I think a 5th cantrip is 99% good in each Situation. I like it very well in a Controll Deck.

1 Vindicate: A Removal for Everything and a very good 1 off.

1 EE+Academy Ruins package: I think a removal like EE is too good right now. Nimble Mongoose lose a lot against EE. Academy Ruins is a good Controll Card.

1 Supreme Verdict: 1 Mass removal Main like this is very good Preboard because it cant be counteret and can turn a lot of Games. Why not Toxic delunge Main instead of verdict later in the Sb Post.

The other Main choices should be clear. ;))

The SB:

Now I have 3 Choices that i want to explain you more.

1 Sword of FaF: I think with Nemesis a important Card. I was thinking about to Play it main because it's to good against Controll Decks.

4 Cannonist: I like him a lot more than Meddling Mage. He's a better Hatebear than the Mage and can Knock out Storm and Snt Decks can't win a counterwar with him on the field. I think 4 is a good Number in Big Tournaments with a lot Combo Decks.

2 Toxic Delunge: For me the best Card in the new Commander 2013 and still underplayed, maybe best Massremoval ever Printed.
It's so good in the SB and i was thinking about it Preboard. But the Noncounterable Verdict seems main very good to. Anyway this Card hit's so much Decks like Maverick, Jund, Junk or Goblins Etc. Toxing Delunge diserve a Place in the SB! I think it will see more Play in the near Future.



I hope you enjoy my List and Post:)
Feel Free to Post.

Greets from Switzerland Pdingo

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I hate Jace in here. I haven't missed him one bit. For those of you on the Delver wagon, I've been testing a Delver version of my above list:

-3 Strix
-1 TNN
-1 Academy Ruins

+4 Delver
+1 Ponder

I know that the Pierces are probably the weakest part of my permission suite (especially in the Strix build), but I think I would be remiss to not include them simply because I wanted to play Esper over Death Blade because of the additional blue it provides. I dislike Snare due to it's constrictions and Counterspell is slow. Being tempo like my list is reminescent of, I don't always necessarily care if they pay 2, as I generally have another answer, or tempo's them long enough for me to win/deal with the problem. I see where you are coming from, but for my playstyle I feel that I benefit from the two Pierce. I keep my 3rd one and 2x Flusterstorm in my board, so I obviously feel pretty safe against all non dredge combo.

Thanks for the kind words, I've been excited since the moment I read TNN, and I gotta say it hasn't disappointed. I love Esper, especially when Patriot is the only real alternative. I'm not a red player. I feel this is better than UWr Delver. I dislike that deck. It feels so easily dealt with.

-ABC

Edit: I hate to disagree with you, dingo, but I'm pretty sure that both Terminus and Verdict are both better. You have to pay life before they get priority. It is this that makes me unable to appreciate Deluge. Pay 3 and X life just to get it countered. Sounds like a bad day to me.

[Pdingo]

is just good in miracle. Without top is a random removal.
I see verdict bader because it's four mana and ww.
Yes it' can't be countered. Against all non blue decks is delunge a lot better.


-3cc is very different.
-It's faster than verdict, when thalia is on the field.
-can handle a gaddock teeg
-against tempo we need only 3 mana and max. 3-4 lifeand he didn't counter it, when we bring it to the late game.
-Who cares about your own life in a controll deck???
- It kill a emrakul for 3 mana and 15 lifes. ;)) :P

[Tormod]

Congrats to Ty Thomason for going undefeated in matches and taking down SCG Dallas with UW Stoneblade

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60551


Creatures (12)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (4)

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (24)

3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Spells (20)

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Supreme Verdict

Sideboard
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict

[BVB09]

Congrats to Ty Thomason for going undefeated in matches and taking down SCG Dallas with UW Stoneblade

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60551


Creatures (12)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (4)

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (24)

3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Spells (20)

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Supreme Verdict

Sideboard
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict

The Celestial Flare seems weird, maybe he was expecting some amount of True-Name Nemesis and Sneak Show?
Also I have doubts about the Swan Songs in the SB, but overall it looks really strong :)

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The Celestial Flare seems weird, maybe he was expecting some amount of True-Name Nemesis and Sneak Show?
Also I have doubts about the Swan Songs in the SB, but overall it looks really strong :)

Flare also kills Mungeese and Progenitus, and Thrun and anything with Mother-protection (Marit Lage), i guess it's fine, might be better than Wingshards, who knows.

Swan Song is underrated most of the time, i like it actually.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think verdict is better in this deck than deluge. The main reason is because deluge will almost always wipe your board since none of your creatures have very large butts. Since this is the case, why not pay the 1 extra and just wipe everything w/o life loss. I understand that the mana for verdict is quite tricky compared to deluge, but a deluge to try and kill a goyf is a pretty big blowout if it gets countered vs tempo. Even if you do wipe their board, you've essentially flung their biggest guy at you, which tempo probably doesn't mind too much.

[Grand Superior]

Glad to see my beloved Stoneblade doing well again in a tournament. Better still, he used the straight UW version that we all started with! True-Name Nemesis seems like a house in this deck, and I'm surprised by stuff like 4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Was it the lack of Shardless BUG that made the Stoneforge decks successful? I don't recall seeing one on coverage and I know that that matchup is dreadful for us.

[HSCK]

I think verdict is better in this deck than deluge. The main reason is because deluge will almost always wipe your board since none of your creatures have very large butts. Since this is the case, why not pay the 1 extra and just wipe everything w/o life loss. I understand that the mana for verdict is quite tricky compared to deluge, but a deluge to try and kill a goyf is a pretty big blowout if it gets countered vs tempo. Even if you do wipe their board, you've essentially flung their biggest guy at you, which tempo probably doesn't mind too much.

I think that the 2B mana cost is a huge reason to play it. Verdict's 1UWW is significantly harder to get to when under pressure from Wastelands, Ports, and Thalias.

[Arsenal]

Looks like there was another identical UW Blade list that finished 14th as well. I'd be interested in hearing/reading how relevant True-Name Nemesis was for 2x Top 16 finishes when traditional Blade Control (UW, Esper, or otherwise) all but fell off the face of planet pre-Nemesis.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that the 2B mana cost is a huge reason to play it. Verdict's 1UWW is significantly harder to get to when under pressure from Wastelands, Ports, and Thalias.

That's the first actual relevant reason I have heard to play deluge.

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[Pdingo]

That the oppenent Counter a Delunge is a bad Argument. The only Deck i see is Tempo RUG maybe UWR delver or bUrg Tempo and Merfolk..But a lot of the time they didn't have the Counter. When you Play correct.
Delunge is better against all shroud,hexproof creatures.
Better against Maverick, Junk, Jund, Elves, Goblins, Bant, Aggro deck like Zoo, BUG Shardless, Death n Taxes and against a lot more Decks. Because of this 1 mana;)
Lifeloss is not relevant.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I will respectfully agree to disagree. I think we should put mass removal discussions aside and focus on a more immediate issue: Is jace good here or bad? I'm aware of the two high placing lists with 4 jtms, but I'm not sold.

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[Arsenal]

I still like him in this deck, at least of a 2-of (I personally will always run 3 main). It gives us an alternate win condition, stabilizes the board, BS every turn, and takes more pressure off the "Equip a dude" plan.

[Pdingo]

I think 2 Jace is to less and 4 Jace is interesting but i don't see him as a Four off.
- i dont won't him 2 times in the Hand in the starthand or the Firsts Rounds..
- Sometimes i don't wan't Play a Jace
- 3 Jaces is the right. We have him in each Game.

@Massremoval Discussion

We will see. I think i'm right with that^^

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Jace speaks to a much heavier control aspect, something TNN doesn't agree with. I think elspeth is a better choice, but ww is hard to come by when you also need uu for tnn. I actually think if it's warranted to play walkers, elspeth should be included.

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[Arsenal]

I like that going UW allows us to greatly mitigate the negative effects of Wasteland. Being able to play basics on the first 3-4 turns will keep us in games we other may get blown out on. Hitting basic WW seems tough to hit consistently by turn 4, no?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I mentioned that but if you are playing straight uw, it shouldn't be any kind of real problem. I am playing Esper and that makes it a bit more difficult for me as turn 1 discard or drs is my best option.

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[Tormod]

I'm in favour of the UW list. I've dropped black from the list completely since lingering souls isn't much of a thing and the rise of death and taxes has increased the presence of -1/-1 hate to white and discard does very little to improve any match ups. The temptation of adding deathrite shaman for his sheer utility is too great, and means splashing 2 green duals to produce the ugliest Mana base in Legacy.

I much rather prefer a rock solid Mana base given the presence of wasteland and bloodmoon. It also serves to create a more consistent stoneblade.

I'm on the 3 Jace plan, but 4 seems reasonable if you've dropped black. Im of the opinion that True-name supports the jace plan by having an unkillable wall.

Stone blade has 3 powerful plays.

1) stoneforge, batterskull
2) Jace
3) True-Name Nemesis.

It makes sense that the rest of the deck support pushing these powerful plays.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think if you want to play Jace, you should be running a bant list. It's a strong idea. I'd drop Strix out of my Esper list for Goyf, replace lands accordingly and probably switch DRS for Noble Hierarch, or at least a combination. Drop the Thoughtseize and that's where the Jaces would go. I know that you guys want to play Azorius, but is that really strong enough? I mean, it's not bad and obviously it's doing at least okay (2 great finishes out of nowhere), but is it the strongest iteration of the build? I think 3-color is peak performance. I micro-splashed for green for my DRS ability activation, but the list is esper, and I don't think I would be satisfied otherwise. I don't think 2 colors gives enough roundness to the build for it to fully blossom and respond to the demands of the metagame.

-ABC

[Arsenal]

If UW Blade becomes a thing again, this deck looks pretty weak to Massacre. Thoughts?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, it is a bit, but can't have it all. You run Counters, or if you are me, Counters and discard, so I'm not too concerned about it. You win fast after you land the Nemesis, so protecting it for a few turns isn't too difficult, at least on paper...I don't see it to be that big of a deal. It sucks, but I think that is one we just have to see coming/be ready for.

-ABC

EDIT: Also, I'm playing 2 Meddling Mage in my sideboard. I think that will help as there's only a few playable cards that will be used to take care of TNN: Massacre, Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution.

[Plowshark]

So I've been playing around with the following UW build utlizing Mother of Runes for the last few weeks on cockatrice / modo / at my lgs, and I have to say I'm rather enjoying it. I have a feeling this has been tried and found unsuccessful / less than optimal in the past, but I wanted to give it a shot. My reasoning was as follows: I like the idea of running Stoneblade without black as I always felt like that was the weakest aspect of the deck (my feeling is in esper, you have the white to pressure, the blue to dig and counter, and the black mainly for targeted discard -- the latter I find he least useful, as your opponent can always topdeck their way back into the game). It also makes the mana less consistent -- this way I don't have to worry about whether to get a swamp or an underground sea against an unknown opponent t1. Without it, however, your options for one drops become a little less exciting. The other problem I'd been having was that (specifically in my meta), Stoneforge is notoriously difficult to protect (meta is a lot of Shardless, D&T, Miracles, Jund, RUG Delver.) I'd say more than half the time when I activate her she ends up getting destroyed and I'm left with an uncastable batterskull in hand. With mom, however, you have a good t1 threat that your opponent often feels the need to deal with immediately. If they do, they're less likely to have removal for the subsequent Stoneforge / Germ. If they don't, even better. It's also a little bit more food for an opponent's Liliana to have to deal with. Anyway, please critique, would love to know if people think it's potentially good / rubbish.

(Mom Blade)

Creatures (13)

3 x Mother of Runes
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x True Name Nemesis
2 x Snapcaster Mage
1 x Vendilion Clique

Instants / Sorceries (18)

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Force of Will
1 x Spell Pierce
1 x Spell Snare
1 x Counterspell
1 x Supreme Verdict
2 x Ponder

Other (6)

3 x Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 x Batterskull
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Detention Sphere

Lands (23)

2 x Island
2 x Plains
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
2 x Marsh Flats
1 x Karakas
4 x Tundra
4 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Academy Ruins


Sideboard (15)

2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Meddling Mage
3 x Rest in Peace
1 x Path to Exile
1 x Supreme Verdict
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Swan Song
1 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress (a concession to TNN at the moment, when it's useful it's very useful but I'm not certain it's worth keeping)
1 x Vendilion Clique

[matunos]

The risk is that the entrance of TNN into the format makes sweepers more valuable (and Toxic Deluge being another promising one), and your Moms are just as vulnerable to those. Plus, your shock troops here, TNN, doesn't need Mom for protection. Your other creatures all give you value whether or not they eat removal.

As you build experience with the deck and the format, you'll become better at choosing what to tutor for. It's not always going to be Batterskull, because many times you're playing a deck with a high likelihood of having removal for the Stoneforge, stranding your living weapon in your hand for at least 3 more turns.

With TNN, I feel you can much more confidently fetch a sword or a Jitte and go to town (except perhaps against Abrupt Decay-based decks). Losing your turn 1 Ponders, or fetching a basic Plains to cast Mom and losing a turn 2 Brainstorm/Fetch can be the marginal costs that more than compensate for the occasional Mom into SFM plays.

Furthermore, with a relatively low creature count (again, 3 of which don't need Mom), I suspect you'll more often find yourself curving a T1 Mom into nothing useful.


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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Okay, I have to ask. Why are the majority of lists I've seen running jaces over drs? Jace does literally NOTHING to further the TNN game plan, and in all honesty is a 4-cc brainstorm a large majority of the time. It also just dies to opposing TNN and creatures that have been "mommed" (D&T). I dunno. I just don't see where you are coming from. Help me out and give me some solid reasons why it's being insisted on being played. Yes, it's Jace. Other reasons, good ones.

-ABC

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[gypsy]

Okay, I have to ask. Why are the majority of lists I've seen running jaces over drs? Jace does literally NOTHING to further the TNN game plan, and in all honesty is a 4-cc brainstorm a large majority of the time. It also just dies to opposing TNN and creatures that have been "mommed" (D&T). I dunno. I just don't see where you are coming from. Help me out and give me some solid reasons why it's being insisted on being played. Yes, it's Jace. Other reasons, good ones.

-ABC

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TNN is not your game plan, you are not a TNN deck, you are a stoneforge deck. TNN is just a card in your deck. TNN wins games, jace wins games. They are both pars of a bigger picture.

If you want to run DRS, then by all means go ahead as there is nothing wrong with running esper death blade, but cutting them for jace is just bad. If you are running it out there just to die that just seems like you aren't playing optimally and nothing to do with jace.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Okay, I have to ask. Why are the majority of lists I've seen running jaces over drs? Jace does literally NOTHING to further the TNN game plan, and in all honesty is a 4-cc brainstorm a large majority of the time. It also just dies to opposing TNN and creatures that have been "mommed" (D&T). I dunno. I just don't see where you are coming from. Help me out and give me some solid reasons why it's being insisted on being played. Yes, it's Jace. Other reasons, good ones.

-ABC

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I don't think just playing Jace and not Deathrite or Deathrite but not Jace is necessarily wrong. I think it comes down to play style mostly (and meta since some cards will be better than others in certain kinds of metas). Those who want to play the more controlling Blade lists will want to have 2 Jaces at minimum. Esper Deathblade is more of a midrange take on Stoneblade and thus was more aggressive than traditional Stoneblade even before TNN. As a midrange deck it makes sense for it to want Deathrite Shaman over Jace and now TNN over Jace as well.

[Arsenal]

That the oppenent Counter a Delunge is a bad Argument. The only Deck i see is Tempo RUG maybe UWR delver or bUrg Tempo and Merfolk..But a lot of the time they didn't have the Counter. When you Play correct.
Delunge is better against all shroud,hexproof creatures.
Better against Maverick, Junk, Jund, Elves, Goblins, Bant, Aggro deck like Zoo, BUG Shardless, Death n Taxes and against a lot more Decks. Because of this 1 mana;)
Lifeloss is not relevant.

I disagree with this. If you're facing a blue-based tempo deck, they most certainly will have more countermagic than we will at any given moment due to (a.) they just run more maindeck than we do and (b.) they run 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder to find their countermagic whereas we run 4 Brainstorm + 0 Ponder. I'm not sure why you believe that blue-based tempo decks will not have a countermagic than us by the time we're able to cast a 3cc spell in Deluge.

Also, why is Deluge "better" against Shroud and Hexproof creatures? I'm pretty sure Verdict deals quite nicely with Geist and Mongoose too.

Against aggro, paying 2-4 Deluge life is relevant, even moreso if the aggro deck is playing countermagic (Merfolk). I think the life loss from Deluge vs. the extra turn of combat damage you'll potentially eat with a 4cc Verdict is a close wash.

[FortyThree]

I went back to Stoneblade yesterday after playing deathblade for a while and not being happy with it. This is the list I ran:

Creatures

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar-Pit

SIDEBOARD

2 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Detention Sphere
2 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique


NOTES:
I could only get a hold of 2 True Name Nemesis. I think I'd like to play 3 ideally
I don't have any Thoughtseize at the moment, else I'd run them over the inquisitions
Similarly, I don't have any Karakas, which I replaced with Tar Pit
I'd also like to run flusterstorms in the board, possibly instead of Duress given how much people are playing leyline of sanctity.


Overall, I was very happy with the deck (a million times better than deathblade). Unfortunately I had 2 bad matchups in a row after winning round 1, which put me out of contention. A few thoughts in no particular order:

1. True Name Nemesis is amazing. More interestingly than that, however, was my game 2 against a Bant deck (Maverick + Blue). I had a TNN and a sword down, which forced my opponent to play everything he had. I then played supreme verdict, leaving him on topdeck mode, and me with a full hand.
2. Jace is so much better here than in Deathblade. TNN + Strix make Jace so good. I'm thinking going with 3 is the way to go.
3. Not having graveyard dependencies other than Snapcaster is great, Rest in Peace hoses so many decks.
4. I also have quite a few answers to opponent's TNNs, though I haven't had the chance to play against them yet.


The bad side is that after beating Bant, I was paired against 12post, which is probably the worst matchup in the world, and after that Affinity, which can be harsh (and it was).

Nevertheless, I'm coming up to a pretty big legacy tournament this saturday, so hopefully I'll be able to provide a better report. I'll also be borrowing flusterstorms, etc. for that.

43

[Arsenal]

Had a small playtesting session yesterday against Jund, Merfolk and Reanimator. Definitely had some interesting games and boardstates and was happy at how versatile the deck was against grindy mid-range, tempo aggro-control and combo. In the TNN games against Merfolk, I always felt ahead due to my SFM + Equipment package (helps I maindeck SoFaI), and I think I only dropped 1 game to Merfolk after he equipped his TNN with Jitte. Here's my list (essentially SCG Dallas winner list -1 Celestial Flare, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and +1 Spell Snare, +1 Spell Pierce):

Maindeck:

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Supreme Verdict

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:

1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Detention Sphere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Spell Pierce
2 Swan Song
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace

[lambert101]

I have been testing good old fashion u/w stoneblade. Testing has given me the following list and board plans.


Main
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Detention Sphere

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island (for ee at 3 and possible wear//tear over disenchant in side)
4 Mishra's Factory


Sideboard:

3 RIP
1 true name
1 Disenchant
2 pithing needle
1 supreme verdict
2 swan song
1 meddling mage
1 e canonist
1 venser
2 EE

vs miracles
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 2 p needle
+ 2 swansong
+ 2 EE

- 2 Force
- 4 Stp
- 1 verdict
- 1 jitte

vs jund
+ 3 RIP
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict

- 4 Force
- 1 cspell

vs maverick
+ 2 EE
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 disenchant

- 4 Force of will
- 1 dsphere

vs show and tell
+ 2 swan song
+ 2 needle
+ 1 cannonist
+ 1 meddling mage (show and tell)
+ 1 venser
+ 1 disenchant

- 1 elspeth
- 1 true name
-1 jitte
- 4 stps
- 1 verdict

vs bug
+ 2 Rip
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 Venser

- 4 Force
- 1 dsphere

vs rug tempo
+ 3 Rip
+ 2 EE
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 TNN

- 4 force
- 1 jace
- 1 dsphere
- cspell

vs uwr temp
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict

- 4 Force

vs elves
+ 2 EE
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 cannonist
+ 1 venser

- 1 bskull
- 3 Jace
- 1 elspeth

vs dnt
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 venser

- 1 verdict
- 4 force ( on play// on draw - 3 pierce -1 force)
- 1 cspell
- 1 Jace

vs storm
- 4 stp
- 1 verdict
- 2 tnn
- 1 jitte
- 1 elspeth

+ 2 swan song
+ 1 ethersworn
+ 1 Mage
+ 2 ee
+ 2 rip
+ 1 Venser


vs fish
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 venser
+ 1 verdict

- 4 force
- 1 cspell
- 1 elspeth
- 2 clique

vs goblins
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 meddling mage

- 4 Force
- 3 pierce
-1 cspell

vs aggro loam
+ 1 disenchant
+ 2 EE
+ 1 venser
+ 3 RiP

- 1 verdict
- 1 dsphere
- 2 snap
- 1 elspeth
- 1 jitte
- 1 jace

vs. mirror match-up
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict

- 4 Force

[useL]

Picked up StoneBlade after a 6 month break playing miracles. I just love the plays you get to do and the fast games you can win instead of the never ending grind with top.

I feel that there are some issues still with the deck that I want to test out (elspeth & more anticreature removal in board) but otherwise I am pretty happy with my 75.

Last night I played against hypergenesis, goblins and nicfit and the deck felt really strong against all three matchups, especially when you get to tune it with the sideboard. After playing miracles you just have to grin your teeth and realize that some matchups are won g2 and g3.

I believe that if you play this deck with Deathrite Shaman you should move your posts to the DeathBlade-thread instead of cloggering up this thread with nonsense that Jace should be cut from the list etc. Last night I won games vs all three matchups because of jace, if I had a deathrite instead the games would not be won (deathrite cant bounce emrakul, cant draw 10 cards, cant find supreme verdict, cant fateseal opponent when he is on 0 cards in hand and almost infinite life). Jace does it all, no matter what deck you play against (except maybe elves and delver where I sideboard out 1-2 of him).

My list is a 3 TNN, 4 stoneforge, 2 snappy, 1 clique list with 3 equipments (sofi, skull, jitte) and two verdict on top of 4 jaces. The usual pierces and ponders and 22 lands. I run 5 basics instead of the extra fetch to make sure I get to play basics into TNN - no funny valuelands or mishras factory (no room in esper with our manabase). The usual 2/2 cut with inq and thoughtseize. The list feels strong but has been played before and I feel it is not really unique except for the lack of oneoffs. If you want to discuss sideboards thats fine but I feel they leave very little wiggleroom nowadays. 3 gy hate, 3 meddling mage, 2 fluster, explosives and some oneoffs that is metadependant. One of the best cards still as creature removal is the Zealous Persecution that I run as a twooff. Last night I also realized how friggin good Meddling Mage is against so many decks. I had one naming Ringleader and one naming Chieftain against goblins and felt so safe even though he had caverns in play.

What cards are especially strong vs patriot? I feel I need a strong sideboard plan against that deck. How would you board with my 75?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are welcome to your opinion but I must say that jace isn't the end-all God of blue. He is good, but he isn't an auto-include. It is okay, check that, smart to question every card choice, and while DRS doesn't easily allow Jace to be played, that doesn't mean you should simply dismiss him as an option. Your scenarios you posted prove nothing. DRS builds are quite different to the extreme tempo - screw builds like the common build on this thread, yes, but they aren't hugely different in goals or play style. I think you should try them. Just remember to be more aggressive than you normally would be playing your normal build.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[matunos]

Stoneblade is not a "tempo-screw" deck. That would be RUG and UWR Delver.


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[useL]

You are welcome to your opinion but I must say that jace isn't the end-all God of blue. He is good, but he isn't an auto-include. It is okay, check that, smart to question every card choice, and while DRS doesn't easily allow Jace to be played, that doesn't mean you should simply dismiss him as an option. Your scenarios you posted prove nothing. DRS builds are quite different to the extreme tempo - screw builds like the common build on this thread, yes, but they aren't hugely different in goals or play style. I think you should try them. Just remember to be more aggressive than you normally would be playing your normal build.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I'm sorry man, you're wrong. This deck is called bladeCONTROL for a reason. This is not a deck where you pack 4 wasteland and 4 deathrite shaman and skip jace, thats another thread and deck.

Now let's move on to more important things. What is the correct sideboard against patriot? Do you keep forces against a non-stifle build? Me and my buddies when we played miracles boarded out entreat and a jace to get less clunky, but then we find ourselves in topdeck mode craving for a wincon. Which cards would you get rid off? Discard looses its value in lategame but is great at picking jace from hand etc.

Second question, 4 thoughtseize or the 2/2 split? I kinda feel that the cards I want to really take often costs more than 3 (jace, batterskull, natural order, ringleader)

[klaus]

What is the correct sideboard against patriot? Do you keep forces against a non-stifle build? Me and my buddies when we played miracles boarded out entreat and a jace to get less clunky, but then we find ourselves in topdeck mode craving for a wincon. Which cards would you get rid off? Discard looses its value in lategame but is great at picking jace from hand etc.
FoW should be kept in as one of the few answers to their NemesEs (correct plural?). SoFI should be in your 75 also in the wake of TNN. Boarding out some Jaces is fine, though I'd try to keep in at least 1. Zealous Persecution should be a 2-of, obv. both should be brought in. Thoughtseize is indeed a good candidate to board out, since the life loss will matter.



Second question, 4 thoughtseize or the 2/2 split? I kinda feel that the cards I want to really take often costs more than 3 (jace, batterskull, natural order, ringleader)
I strongly recommend going with the full set of Thoughtseize. Jitte/Batterskull should make up for the life loss in the long run.

[rancOr_]

I think a 3/1 split of tseize and inquisition is optimal so I'd go with that. You board out fows against tempo decks and maybe some amount of jace. I always had good results with that. Against patriot just board in zealous persecution/supreme verdict, some flusterstorm if you got spot. Don't keep in fows it's the worst vs them, esp when they run so many spell pierce etc.

[Arsenal]

You are welcome to your opinion but I must say that jace isn't the end-all God of blue. He is good, but he isn't an auto-include. It is okay, check that, smart to question every card choice, and while DRS doesn't easily allow Jace to be played, that doesn't mean you should simply dismiss him as an option. Your scenarios you posted prove nothing. DRS builds are quite different to the extreme tempo - screw builds like the common build on this thread, yes, but they aren't hugely different in goals or play style. I think you should try them. Just remember to be more aggressive than you normally would be playing your normal build.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Deathblade and Blade Control/Stoneblade decks are different decks with different goals in mind. There is a Deathblade thread if you want to discuss DRS there, but here is not the place.

[ivanpei]

I think TNN is great in UW and UWB Stoneblade. However is anyone playing UWR blade? I play 3 Grim Lavamancers as my extra creatures instead of TNN. Also more Snapcasters because they are really good with Bolts and Swords. I'm currently not running any TNN because my 3 drop spot is loaded with 3 Clique and 4 Snapcasters. I can't cut Clique because unlike UWB, I don't have that much disruption and I would rather not cut Snapcasters because the card is really good with Bolts, STP, Brainstorm and Spell Pierce.

I think TNN is great in general, but in a TNN vs Grim discussion which would you pick for board dominance? I like how cheap Grim Lavamancer is and it can really win you the game for 1 mana. I don't like having a Clog at the 3 drop and I want my 3 drops to be good against Combo and Control.

[SirTylerGalt]

I think TNN is great in UW and UWB Stoneblade. However is anyone playing UWR blade? I play 3 Grim Lavamancers as my extra creatures instead of TNN. Also more Snapcasters because they are really good with Bolts and Swords. I'm currently not running any TNN because my 3 drop spot is loaded with 3 Clique and 4 Snapcasters. I can't cut Clique because unlike UWB, I don't have that much disruption and I would rather not cut Snapcasters because the card is really good with Bolts, STP, Brainstorm and Spell Pierce.

I think TNN is great in general, but in a TNN vs Grim discussion which would you pick for board dominance? I like how cheap Grim Lavamancer is and it can really win you the game for 1 mana. I don't like having a Clog at the 3 drop and I want my 3 drops to be good against Combo and Control.

I wasn't playing Grim Lavamancer before TNN was legal, since I found it subpar and prefered instant removal / Supreme Verdict / E.E. So my choice is simple: TNN > Grim.

Other reasons why I don't like Grim Lavamancer:
- I prefer a light red splash for 2-3 REB, Sulfur Elemental, and Blood Moon in the SB
- I'm trying to reduce my graveyard dependency to bring RiP post-board. This means my only GY-dependent cards are 2 Snapcaster and 1 Academy Ruin.

[Tormod]

4 Thoughtseize is fine if you're on 0 snapcasters
3/1 if you're on 1-2 snapcasters
2/2 split if you're on 2-3 snapcasters

[ivanpei]

I wasn't playing Grim Lavamancer before TNN was legal, since I found it subpar and prefered instant removal / Supreme Verdict / E.E. So my choice is simple: TNN > Grim.

Other reasons why I don't like Grim Lavamancer:
- I prefer a light red splash for 2-3 REB, Sulfur Elemental, and Blood Moon in the SB
- I'm trying to reduce my graveyard dependency to bring RiP post-board. This means my only GY-dependent cards are 2 Snapcaster and 1 Academy Ruin.

I'm running zero sweepers and pretty heavy red in the main deck for Grims and bolts. I have no double white cards and I can't run them since I consistently need 3 colours. I'm also on the surgical plan post board. I just fry DRS and Goyfs with my removal when they come down. Yea I guess it's different builds. Grim has been really solid for me in the same way how it is great in Patriot Blade. It just takes over the board if unanswered and for the low price of 1 mana.

[Moose8583]

Why is verdict not used more? When I play blade I seem to want more verdict but it seems the majority runs 0-1. It is live more so than mot and can be used in occasional combo games either they are having a bad time or your disrupting them enough to slow them down. Its also blue which is relevant because a good number of list run 3 FoW instead of 4. So I was just wondering why it seems to get passed up a lot.

[SirTylerGalt]

Why is verdict not used more? When I play blade I seem to want more verdict but it seems the majority runs 0-1. It is live more so than mot and can be used in occasional combo games either they are having a bad time or your disrupting them enough to slow them down. Its also blue which is relevant because a good number of list run 3 FoW instead of 4. So I was just wondering why it seems to get passed up a lot.

Some people *do* play Verdict in Blade Control:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_supreme_blade_with_j.html
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60141


When playing UWr Blade Control, I like having 1 E.E. and 1 Supreme Verdict main, and another Verdict in the side.

[lambert101]

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck

R1: 2-1 Elves (Izzet Staticaster blows him out in G2 and G3 especially when it hits double dryad arbor)
R2: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R3: Jund (land screw g3)
R4: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R5: Esper Death-Blade (tight play and a million angels, well like 6 win g3)
R6: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R7: NO OPPONENT SHOWS UP
R8: Merfolk with TNN (frustration with TNN)
R9: DROP

updated list below:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Moat

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus

Have board plans available upon request. Only 2 RIP's may be questionable. I still like blood moon vs. bug and delver decks.

[Zombie]

After going 3-6 in GP DC I think its time to ask for some help with this deck

R1: 2-1 Elves (Izzet Staticaster blows him out in G2 and G3 especially when it hits double dryad arbor)
R2: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R3: Jund (land screw g3)
R4: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R5: Esper Death-Blade (tight play and a million angels, well like 6 win g3)
R6: UW stoneblade with TNN (Not enough removals)
R7: NO OPPONENT SHOWS UP
R8: Merfolk with TNN (frustration with TNN)
R9: DROP

updated list below:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Moat

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

Board:

2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
1 Terminus

Have board plans available upon request. Only 2 RIP's may be questionable. I still like blood moon vs. bug and delver decks.

Wrong thread. That list belongs here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-DTB-Miracle-Control/page179

[Arsenal]

Um, looks like you meant to post this in the UWr Miracles thread?

[SirTylerGalt]

Here are my reports for the BoM Paris tournaments: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27104-UWr-AngelBlade-at-BoM-Paris-(5-3-BoM8-main-event-4-2-BoM9-Trial)

It also contains a discussion of the UWr AngelBlade list Piceli89 advised me to play.

[B88]

hi averyone!
i would share my current list of stoneblade:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte Lands [22]
1 Academy Ruin
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
1Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Glacial fortress

side
3 Flusterstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Disenchant
3 Zealous persecution

i need a few advices...the only card which i'm not sure is Strix...i mean, nemesis maybe do the same (block any creature) and for that could switch 2 strix for +1ponder and +1vindicate (is a main answer for other equip of our oppenent when we play a mirror)

what do you think about it? let me know please :)

[Herjan]

hi averyone!
i would share my current list of stoneblade:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte Lands [22]
1 Academy Ruin
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
1Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Glacial fortress

side
3 Flusterstorm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Disenchant
3 Zealous persecution

i need a few advices...the only card which i'm not sure is Strix...i mean, nemesis maybe do the same (block any creature) and for that could switch 2 strix for +1ponder and +1vindicate (is a main answer for other equip of our oppenent when we play a mirror)

what do you think about it? let me know please :)

I played a similiar main deck a couple of weeks ago in a small local tournament (17 players, ended up 3rd) with -2 Clique -1 Ponder -1 Verdict -1 Fortress +1 Counterspell +1 Spell Pierce +1 Vindicate +1 SoFI +1 Marsh Flats.

I liked Strix very much, not only it replaces itself and is a nice blocker but can also present a serious threat with any equipment (not to mention it can be brought back from the grave with Ruins).

[Tormod]

you don't need tarpit AND glacial fortress
You're too light on graveyard hate, 3 pieces is the lightest I would go
I've actually dropped black completely, in the world of TNN its so important to have a higher life total when the TNNs come down and the damage race goes into full gear.
3 zealous persecution is excessive, you have 2 snapcasters so 2 is enough

[rancOr_]

Hi, played in tourney this weekend(43pple),split in final :

4 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
2 Marsh flats
3 Underground sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 karakas
3 Jace,the mind sculptor
4 Stoneforge mystic
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion clique
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of kozilek
3 Force of will
2 Spell pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lingering souls
1 Supreme verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Sword of feast and famine
---------------------------------------
1 Force of will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
2 Meddling mage
1 Notion thief
1 Engineered explosives
2 Zealous persecution
2 Perish
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme verdict

R1 2-0 Affinity
R2 2-1 uwr tempo
R3 1-1 shardless bug
R4 2-0 omnitell
R5 1-2 shardless bug
R6 2-1 sneak attack
QF 2-0 elves!
SF 2-1 Esperblade(tnn)
Split with Shardless BUG

I didn't play any GY hate because I didn't expect alot of Ichorid etx. In a bigger event I'd prabably play some(although surgical extractions wont do it,need RIP).
I dont play TNN in here because I feel ur weakening ur combo MU's too much and if u play TNN its best with DRS. But the supreme verdict md was there to help out. Zealous persecution as always MVP and best tool to deal with TNN while also being great against Elves,DxT,..

Greetings-

[Qtc]

I wasn't playing Grim Lavamancer before TNN was legal, since I found it subpar and prefered instant removal / Supreme Verdict / E.E. So my choice is simple: TNN > Grim.

Other reasons why I don't like Grim Lavamancer:
- I prefer a light red splash for 2-3 REB, Sulfur Elemental, and Blood Moon in the SB
- I'm trying to reduce my graveyard dependency to bring RiP post-board. This means my only GY-dependent cards are 2 Snapcaster and 1 Academy Ruin.

I agree. Here's my current list:

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
2 Izzet Charm
3 Force of Will

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mystic gate
3 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear

You don't need Grim when you run enough spot removal especially now that True-Name Nemesis is a thing since you don't really care about creatures blocking yours. You just don't want your opponents board presence to get out of hand.

I'm really surprised at the lack of UWr Stoneblade decks to be honest. I really like the way this deck runs. You have main deck spot removal for almost everything but most importantly plainswalkers! The new legend rule change has made all plainswalkers a lot more difficult to kill. And we currently see a surge in fair decks running walkers. The 4 bolts main deck kill all but Elspeth (which hardly any deck runs but I do!) add the snapcasters to that kill count and you're up at six already. More importantly this deck let's you board in 1/2 pyro/redblasts after game 1. Allowing you to counter Jace, Show and Tell AND True-Name Nemesis. I really do not like the esper lists all that much to be honest. The discard black adds in my opinion is not going to cut it against all the decks that will protect their important cards with brainstorm or simply top-deck them mid to late game. I know the discard is primarily meant to combat combo decks but if you run additional counters main deck and add the REB's and flusters post board you'll do well against most of them. I've played this deck against Deathblade and Esper control blade lists and I really have no problem beating any of them. I also tested it online against Sneak and show and ANT and against both decks especially post board I felt quite favored. Rug can be a bit more difficult at times as the manabase can get screwed over with well timed wastes and stifles. The UWR delver match up on the other hand (now that they shifted away from stifle) is better but just be wary of the extra pierces they run.

Too be honest I really feel like this deck is what the UWR delver list should be. Running stoneforge mystic in a tight delver package just doesn't seem optimal. If the mystic gets bolted or plowed or if something happens to the germ you have a late game card in your hand or in play that you can't use effectively which does not help you play the tempo game where your dazes and pierces are active. You really do need 5 mana to use stoneforge as optimal as possible. This deck on the other hand want's to play the late game it wants to hit that 5+ mana every single game.

[Ralf]

Too be honest I really feel like this deck is what the UWR delver list should be. Running stoneforge mystic in a tight delver package just doesn't seem optimal. If the mystic gets bolted or plowed or if something happens to the germ you have a late game card in your hand or in play that you can't use effectively which does not help you play the tempo game where your dazes and pierces are active. You really do need 5 mana to use stoneforge as optimal as possible. This deck on the other hand want's to play the late game it wants to hit that 5+ mana every single game.

To be honest, your list is not very different from UWR Delver. You only switch 10 - 12 cards (PW, 3-4 lands, creatures, not counting the counterspell suite).
UWR Delver is not always "stuck" with an equipment card in hand. It happens, so it will to you even with more mana...

You traded some "unfairness" relying in the shell of every "tempo" deck (daze, wasteland, stifle) for "fairness" and better endgame.
So what? Sure, in the end, you will be able to abuse "batterskull", "E.E" and in some extend the raw power of PW, but straight UWR delver is strong too.

For major events, you have to ask yourself what you are going to do because playing "properly" during 9 rounds requires a huge amount of concentration.

Mid-range & control are more likely to go to time so that you might not have enough resting time between the rounds.

Playing a tempo shell will provide you more rest (eventually less stress) in the long run.

So is it worth to play a mid-range shell of a deck compared to its other tempo shell ?

I guess here we are talking about personal/preference choices & playstyle. But keep in mind, that all is not about RAW power. UWR Delver is showing strong results but I have yet to see UWR.blade doing the same...

[Piceli89]

To be honest, your list is not very different from UWR Delver. You only switch 10 - 12 cards (PW, 3-4 lands, creatures, not counting the counterspell suite).
UWR Delver is not always "stuck" with an equipment card in hand. It happens, so it will to you even with more mana...

You traded some "unfairness" relying in the shell of every "tempo" deck (daze, wasteland, stifle) for "fairness" and better endgame.
So what? Sure, in the end, you will be able to abuse "batterskull", "E.E" and in some extend the raw power of PW, but straight UWR delver is strong too.

For major events, you have to ask yourself what you are going to do because playing "properly" during 9 rounds requires a huge amount of concentration.

Mid-range & control are more likely to go to time so that you might not have enough resting time between the rounds.

Playing a tempo shell will provide you more rest (eventually less stress) in the long run.

So is it worth to play a mid-range shell of a deck compared to its other tempo shell ?

I guess here we are talking about personal/preference choices & playstyle. But keep in mind, that all is not about RAW power. UWR Delver is showing strong results but I have yet to see UWR.blade doing the same...


Basically because as of now, to pop a Delver on turn 1 and ride it to victory by 1-for-1ing constantly opponent's resources with your optimal cc1s answers (the strongest of the formats in UWr I'd dare to say) is a strategy that pays more than ramping to 4 and 5 mana and try to carry a Jace to resources' supremacy with a Snapcaster here and there.

The latest Legacy is more and more pushing towards combo deck and fair decks with a low curve with Wasteland and resistors (Thalia, Daze, Pierce), and True Name Nemesis does nothing but to incentivate the second category to prosper even more, both in being played and being played against. In such scenario, by going midrange you have a good portion of cards that require you either to survive the first 3 turns and/or develop mana correctly in order to take over, as well as being lucky enough to sit across an unknown opponent (taken from a GP-like prospective) and hoping that 1) you don't have many of those sitting in starting hand and 2) the opponent isn't playing a blazingly fast deck. When Death and Taxes, Elves, UWr Delver and Sneak and Show are tiers, Jace is most of the time bad.

---
Red as of now does nothing for Stoneblade midrange-edition to power up its strategy. Lightning Bolt, as good as it is, just dirts the manabase since game 1 and we all know that midranges are more susceptible to Wasteland because being cut off a land in the first 4 turns invalidates the most important spells and we stutter in front of fast spells. Since TNN, Supreme Verdict is a much better removal than Bolt because of the aforementioned decks (granted you reach 4 mana against that and they don't mitigate overextension, i.e. not in Vial mode.)
Pyroblast could stop the usual suspects, truth is that apart from Show and Tell it is now less effective because a TNN that's slipped onto the board won't just be touched; countering/destroying Jace has also becoming less common because the Blue Planeswalker is indeed being reduced in effectiveness.

So I guess you're right, the correct angle for Stoneblade now is to play either straight UW (although I strongly dislike colorless fancy lands like Factory) or Esperblade, as discard spells, Zealous Persecution and Lingering Souls are just too good in both providing disruptive elements to faster strategies and opening up the Jace gameplan well.

[Arsenal]

I'm on the SCG Dallas winning UW Stoneblade list and love it. Rock solid manabase that isn't Wasteland-vulnerable is always nice. Re: colorless lands, you certainly don't have to play them, but I think some number of Mishra's Factory is correct as our threat density is semi-low, Factory lives through Supreme Verdict, it potentially "saves" our TNN from their Liliana-edict, allows TNN to go on offense while Factory protects Jace on defense, etc. Initially I was like "these are unerwhelming", but after playing with it, they've been surprisingly good for the UW build.

[klaus]

I'm on the SCG Dallas winning UW Stoneblade list and love it.
Gotta say, I also fancy that list! I included some suggestions below.

3 Snapcaster Mage --------------> 2 seem like the perfect number to me, as I always count him as CMC3, and 13 CMC 3+ spells (not counting FoW, Batterskull) feels like 1 too many imo
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce --------------> only random choice: Pierce is only good during the early game/ early mid-game. Being a singleton you'll hardly every have it available then, which is why I'd prefer: Fluster Storm/CS/Snare/Ponder/Misdirection
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict

Artifacts (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory ---------> definitely too many, considering you run 15 spells requiring at least 2 colored mana resources (counting SCM). I'd go with 2, adding 1 Island and 1 Mystic Gate
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis ----------------> not sure if needed, if you want to race opposing TNNs, maybe Flare #2 might be superior
1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant -------------> I'd still prefer O. Ring as SnT hate
1 Supreme Verdict

[useL]

Two words: Notion Thief

Tested him against BUG Shardless which is otherwise a tough match, he is absolutely insane.

[Arsenal]

@klaus

I went -1 Celestial Flare, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare. Everything else feels perfect with the SCG Dallas list. Again, being able to not get Wastlanded out of games is something I highly regard.

[luckme10]

Anyone have any experience running ghostway in the sideboard? Seems to be a good sweeper defense, tnn protection, and a nice way to gain a second set of etb triggers for stoneforge, baleful strix, snapcaster mage, and clique.

[UnsungHero]

Anyone have any experience running ghostway in the sideboard? Seems to be a good sweeper defense, tnn protection, and a nice way to gain a second set of etb triggers for stoneforge, baleful strix, snapcaster mage, and clique.

Seems real neat however wouldn't Blade Control be better off just running more counters? 2W seems like a lot just to protect 1 or 2 guys we may or may not have. If you don't have and creatures on board, it seems like a dead card, where some sort of counterspell helps in multiple situations. Only way to know is try it though!

I've been contemplating running Spellstutter Sprite in the UW build. Anyone have experience with it?

[Arsenal]

Seems real neat however wouldn't Blade Control be better off just running more counters? 2W seems like a lot just to protect 1 or 2 guys we may or may not have. If you don't have and creatures on board, it seems like a dead card, where some sort of counterspell helps in multiple situations. Only way to know is try it though!

I've been contemplating running Spellstutter Sprite in the UW build. Anyone have experience with it?

Original UW Stoneblade lists ran Sprites, but nowadays, where would you find room? Between SFM, Snapcaster, TNN, and Clique, what are you cutting for Sprites?

[eszanto]

First of all- this is my first post on these boards, so I would like to say hello to all of you :)

now let's get to the topic- I have been playing Esperblade (list that is pretty close to the list that top8ed GP DC) for almost a year but I can't figure out how to beat UW miracles. The deck is quite frequent in the meta where I play and I feel like it is my worst matchup. It has counterspells for my key cards, sweepers for TNN, and because of SDT it can completly ignore my discard spells. I would be very grateful for any advice on how to play this matchup and how to sideboard.

Greetings,
Erik

[blablub]

Hey,

Does somebody have the List which Shahar Shenhar played at GP DC? :)

[somethingdotdotdot]

Versus miracles, I find that pithing needle in the board helps a lot. Needle naming sensei's top is pretty backbreaking for them especially since they only have a few ways to kill it once it hits the board. Needle naming karakas is also useful for disrupting their clique/venser shenanigans. The matchup is pretty much a grind-fest based on who can topdeck better, but just remember to not overextend into their terminus-s and that you need to put a clock on them. From a few matches versus them, I remember a cb/top lock with 2/3 on top is pretty much game over and you should just scoop at that point and try to win the next game.

[mike1987]

Creatures (10)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
Spells (24)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize


What do you guys think of this deck Reid Duke posted in his article. More basics, counterspells and verdicts. No baleful strix and one less discard in the main.

[Arsenal]

It looks like a slightly tweaked Vidi Esper list with 3 TNN instead of 3 Lingering Souls. Nothing really catches my eye, these lists have been running around forever, Reid just tweaked the numbers here and there.

[kingtk3]

Hi to all, I've picked up this deck recently and did a small tournament yesterday. Here's the list:

BEATERS (11)
4 stoneforge mystic
2 snapcaster mage
3 true-name nemesis
2 vendilion clique

EQUIPMENTS (3)
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

PLANESWLAKER (3)
3 jace, the mind sculptor

COUNTERS (8)
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
2 counterspell

REMOVALS (6)
4 swords to plowshares
2 supreme verdict

CANTRIPS (6)
4 brainstorm
2 ponder

MANA (23)
4 tundra
3 island
2 plains
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
3 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 marsh flats

SIDEBOARD (15)
1 true-name nemesis
1 path to exile
1 disenchant
1 manriki-gusari
1 wrath of god
2 detention sphere
2 swan song
1 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
3 rest in peace

It's pretty stock as far as I know, I just opted for 2 supreme verdicts main deck for opposing nemeses and I've cut a land and something else for 2 ponders since they're basically part of the mana base.

Round 1 vs elves! 2-0
G1: He builds a board of deathrites and quirions but I counter his key spells (natural order and glimpse) and kill him with batterskull + jitte + nemesis
G2: he keeps a creature light hand full of NO and glimpses, but fails to find other creatures, although I was full of counters

Round 2 vs scape-fit with punishing fire 2-0
G1: this was a grinding match between his top and my jace, but the latter is better at this and I finish him with nemesis
G2: this match I'm on the offensive and he tries to answer my treats, but at the end batterskull seals the deal

Round 3 vs Jund 1-1
G1: his first shaman and Bob get plowed, he brings me down with bloodbraid beats but then I stabilize with double nemeses
G2: he's very quick to lay a couple of shamans, a Bob and a goyf, but then I play rest in piece and Stp Bob. The game took long because he found 3 lilianas and I fail to find a jace, then he finishes me off with shaman beats in the extra turns

Round 4 vs BGW nic-fit 2-0
G1: I counter and plow he's relevant treats and play a vendilion; he cleans the board with deed but in the meanwhile I tutor for batterskull and from here ride for the win
G2: I drop a quick nemesis followed by a clique in his eot, counter 2 of his spells (thank you counterspell and snapcaster) and win the match easily

Top 4 vs reanimator 1-2
G1: I counter a couple of his reanimation spells than nemesis and snapcaster beat him to death
G2: he reanimates an inkwell and, besides me having cast a vendilion, I cannot race him. I've made 2 errors in this game: first with vendilion I saw land, petal and fow and decided to put his fow in the bottom of the deck giving him reanimate, second I forgot to shuffle away a land that I put on top of my library with brainstorm
G3: I think I've made another mistake since I mull an hand with 4 lands and 3 cantrips which, in retrospective, should have been good. I've got a one lander with fow, double meddling, batteskull and detention sphere: he 'seizes my fow and reanimates an inkwell 2 turns after.

The deck felt strong and I think I'll play the same list next time: it has answers for everything and can easily switch beween control and aggro.
Comparing to deathblade I love the 5 basics and I think they are worth the advantage of playing deathrite shaman.

[Arsenal]

I too run a UW Stoneblade list and having basics is really, really good right now. Players are focusing in on the Wasteland/Daze plan really hard in order to prevent opponents from hitting 3-4 mana consistently. I run enough basics that I can literally just play Island, Island, Plains (no fetches involved) and start casting TNNs.

[kingtk3]

I too run a UW Stoneblade list and having basics is really, really good right now. Players are focusing in on the Wasteland/Daze plan really hard in order to prevent opponents from hitting 3-4 mana consistently. I run enough basics that I can literally just play Island, Island, Plains (no fetches involved) and start casting TNNs.

That's exactly how it went for me: basics are very valuable right now to the point that I'm considering cutting the ninth fetch for an extra island (yesterday I had all my fetchable lands in play and drew a polluted which felt awkward).

Also, it's true that jace is weaker now against a true-name nemsis, but since you are playing them yourself you can win the race if your opponent attacks him instead of your life totals. Moreover supreme verdicts help jace stay in life and, obviously, he still rocks against the other decks as usual.

[Cecilia Jupe]

Hey everyone. I am Ty Thomason.

I had a friend tell me about this site and that people were discussing my list, so I came here to check it out. I wrote an article about the SCG Dallas list I played. StarCity didn't want it because they had too much legacy content already that week, so I published it here (http://mtgbazaar.blogspot.com/2013/11/scg-dallas.html). I'll try to come back and add more to the discussion later.

[HSCK]

No celebration for moving back into the DTB forum? Sam Black thinks Esper is the best deck in the format, the ability to disrupt combo and deal with creatures efficiently (especially other TNNs) puts the deck back in the ability to go 50/50 with almost every deck. Shardless BUG and Punishing Jund could still pose issues; I've been trying to find a space for a 2nd Lingering Souls to help counteract Lili. Has anyone else gone through these match-ups more thoroughly?

[blablub]

where do you read about Sam Black statements about esper? does he post a list?

[Esper3k]

I'm a huge fan of Reid Duke's Esper list (the one that Gordon based his SCG Oakland deck off of). I think right now, Esper colors is the best Blade Control deck out there, followed by Deathblade lists.

However, I like Esper over Deathblade since your manabase is more stable and with the rise in sweepers like Supreme Verdict, I don't like having more creatures on the field than necessary.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's not seeming to do so well. Is there any consensus on a core to esper?

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[Arsenal]

It's not seeming to do so well. Is there any consensus on a core to esper?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Start with Vidi's GP Denver list, swap the 3 Lingering Souls for 3 TNN, and you're 99% done.

[blablub]

Sounds good, but i think you don't need Geist in the Board anymore :P
Maybe change them for Meddling Mages
I dont understand the Darkblast, do you think its a good choice atm? against Death/Taxes it might be good. Otherwise i think you can swap the Perish for another Supreme Verdict to fight other Nemesiis.
Therapy is not good enough without Souls, so another TS might be right

So we are on this:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis
Creatures [8]

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [3]

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate

Spells [27]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
3 Meddling Mage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution


I'm just brainstorming, what do you think? :)

[Arsenal]

Sideboard is whatever you want it to be for your expected meta. But the maindeck/manabase is pretty much set, imo. You'll see lists tinker with the numbers on certain cards slightly, but the GP Denver list is still the core to work from.

[HSCK]

You might want something that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Bolt and that TNN can't block profitably. Something like Cockatrice perhaps?

Right now I'm at 2 Snapcaster and 2 Lingering Souls and 3 mass removal spells in 2 Verdict and 1 EE. I've moved away from Inquisition to 3 TS only and 2 Counterspell to supplement the Forces in my disruption package.

[blablub]

So you've cutted the Spell Pierces?
the Idea of Souls sounds great because they fight Lilianas which can be an issue. otherwise they are bonkers against Miracles. I like the Idea.

Can you share your list plz? :)

[Arsenal]

You might want something that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Bolt and that TNN can't block profitably. Something like Cockatrice perhaps?

My eyes are watery from all the smoke from your burning strawman.

[HSCK]

So you've cutted the Spell Pierces?
the Idea of Souls sounds great because they fight Lilianas which can be an issue. otherwise they are bonkers against Miracles. I like the Idea.

Can you share your list plz? :)

Sure:

Esper Stoneblade

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Spells:
1 Ponder
1 Vindicate
2 Counterspell
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures:
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Lands:
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
1 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Humility
1 Thoughtseize
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
3 Meddling Mage

[Arsenal]

@blabub

Darkblast is personal preference choice, imo. It's great versus Lingering Souls, Elves (a major meta player right now), decent versus Delver (hits a 1/1 Delver and you can still kill a flipped Delver with the upkeep -> Darkblast + Dredge -> Darkblast play), great versus the aforementioned Death and Taxes, and good-ish versus lots of random tier 2 stuff like Goblins, Maverick, etc. Admittedly, it's better if you're running Lingering Souls, but even without, it seems worth it (to me) to keep it in.

Also, Verdict seems better than Perish in a TNN meta, although Perish has it's place versus Elves, Jund, RUG Delver (assuming no TNN out of the SB) and Maverick. Although let's be real, Maverick isn't a deck anymore.

[Koby]

I think Josh Ravitz' build from SCG Invitational looks quite strong and eschews TNN because the card is just a fad.

For reference:

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Lingering Souls
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Humility
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

[Arsenal]

Notion Thief, god that card is a blowout when it hits. I like him as a 1-of in every deck that can support him.

[Myelectronicdays]

Notion Thief, god that card is a blowout when it hits. I like him as a 1-of in every deck that can support him.

yeah i am always suprised he doesn't see more play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

[...] and eschews TNN because the card is just a fad.


Probably sigging that. I mean, the only way this card is a fad is if it gets banned, and then that's a forced fad. He has changed things.

I've been able to appreciate Clique in the board as a 3-of, so that when I face decks that are good against TNN, I just board swap. It's so clean. I normally drop my 4th TNN for another sb card if I'm running the full set, but the idea that I still have a 3/1 evasive beater for an equip target that is still relevant against my matchup, honestly feels like home. Honestly, it makes that Karakas feel better too.

-ABC

[Koby]

I mean sure, it's a bigger Invisible Stalker, but it has no disruption against the decks that you want to disrupt - namely combo and control mirrors. It's not vulnerable to most removal. Neat. we aren't playing Standard format where you need to run 8-14 removals.

I call it a fad because we're likely to fade back to Clique/Lingering Souls within months.

[HSCK]

My eyes are watery from all the smoke from your burning strawman.

Aren't those good for this super warped TNN meta?

I don't think TNN is a fad, I think it'll vary between 2-3 as the meta flips and flops, but definitely here to stay.

[Arsenal]

Listen kiddo, if you read what I actually posted instead of what you think I posted, this wouldn't even be a thing. Why are you still on this? Did I hurt your feelings? Do you want a hug from Liliana?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I would like a small discussion on why exactly we don't play or even consider delver. He is just the tits. Turn one delver into turn 3 tnn is so strong with any kind of Counterspell backup it's hard for me to imagine not wanting it. Is there something I am just missing? I can't imagine what it might be.

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[trollking21]

So I would like a small discussion on why exactly we don't play or even consider delver. He is just the tits. Turn one delver into turn 3 tnn is so strong with any kind of Counterspell backup it's hard for me to imagine not wanting it. Is there something I am just missing? I can't imagine what it might be.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

19-20 instant/sorc and delver is not a good combo. Also what do you take out

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm not saying it's a card-for-card fix, I understand it would take some tinkering. I suppose it's most feasible in a UW build, so for the discussions sake let's use that.

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[luckme10]

This is why:

+ 4delver
+ 25 spells
+ 2/3 Jace
+ 3/4 TNN
+ 4 Stoneforge Mystic
+ 2 equipment
+ >= 22 lands

Can you get down to 60 cards with this setup?

So what do you want to cut? Jace? Since you're cutting jace you might as well be playing less lands. Now you've cut less lands but you may not have as good as a long game so you add daze and wasteland to slow down your opponent. Look you're playing UW Tempo, which I believe there's an infamous thread for that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Where does the magical number 25 come from? I don't disagree that is solid, I just would like something more solid than someone's word on the matter. Doesn't the amount of cantrips you run make a difference, or is 25 including a certain number of cantrips already? Any actual math to back it up?

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[Tormod]

Pretty much what luckme said.

There's nothing wrong with going down that road but be aware you don't want to be playing a strictly worse version of 2 decks.

25 is still too less. I've done it with 25 and its too inconsistent and that's with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Okay. I guess I will continue my search for a deck that will play both. Don't suggest UWr delver. I don't know why, but I find it a bore.

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[luckme10]

Just going off of playtesting and general consensus. I guess it would be a gaussian distribution without replacement. Would love to see a distribution myself. Say confidence interval 90%? Someone make this happen.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think if you want delver, you could build something like a deathblade tempo list closer to bug delver.

Preliminary sketch like:

4x Drs
4x Delver
4x Sfm
2x Tnn

1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Daze
3x Fow
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Stp
2x Orzhov Charm (this is actually a really good card imo)

4x Strand
4x Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Underground
2x Scrubland
1x Tundra
4x Wasteland

[Dzra]

You are wasting your time trying to cram Delver into this deck. Playing Delver basically means a mandatory full set of Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, and Daze. In addition you want 3-4 Spell Pierce to protect it. Without Bolt, you need another way to find reach. Hymns and Swords to Plowshares won't help you there.

[Kaslan]

On the delver blade subject, I have been toying with this idea for a while now.

10 creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

27 Instants/Sorceries
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Vindicate
2 Lingering Souls
2 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize

1 Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

19 lands
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta


This version of Esper plays a lot like the normal version, but it has the added benefit of having '' oups I win draws '' because of the delver.

Most players associate Delver with Wasteland, spell pierce and daze. I think that delver can be put in a more mid rangy and less tempo oriented deck.

In the new TNN era of legacy, Zealous Persecution has been amazing at clearing the board and is synergistic with Lingering Souls.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

As someone just making the plunge into stoneblade (playing just UW for now), why isn't Bitterblossom played in the Esper lists? It seems like Batterskull and Jitte can mitigate the loss of life and an endless stream of flying tokens sounds like exactly what this deck would want.

[Dzra]

Mostly because it does nothing for the first two turns that it's in play. For that kind of effect, Lingerig Souls is generally more impactful.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Here's the list I'm testing currently. How has death and taxes been for you guys?

4 sfm
2 scm
4 tnn
1 tombstalker

3 Jtms
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 jitte
1SoFI
1BSkull

2 Ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 pierce
1 c-spell
3 TSeize
1 IoK
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme verdict
4 StP

1 Swamp
1 plains
2 island
1 karakas
1 Scrubland
2 USea
3 Tundra
2 marsh flats
3 Delta
4 Strand


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[klaus]

Here's the list I'm testing currently. How has death and taxes been for you guys?

4 sfm
2 scm
4 tnn
1 tombstalker

3 Jtms
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 jitte
1SoFI
1BSkull

2 Ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 pierce
1 c-spell
3 TSeize
1 IoK
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme verdict
4 StP

1 Swamp
1 plains
2 island
1 karakas
1 Scrubland
2 USea
3 Tundra
2 marsh flats
3 Delta
4 Strand


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I'm 100% sure those Ponders would be better off as land. Though your curve appears to be extremely effing high even for 22 land I daresay. Testing against mana denial strategies should demonstrate that quickly - especially VS. DnT btw.
I find it very useful to look at virtual CMCs of CIP spells and cards requiring an activation cost to actually do something (i.e. equipment). Virtual CMCs of such spells are slightly higher to be more meaningful when it comes to building your mana base. Looky here:

SFM --> CMC3
SCM --> CMC3
Tombstalker --> CMC3
Jitte --> CMC3
SoFI --> CMC4
BSkull --> CMC3 (I find myself hardcasting it more often than not)

Now with that in mind trying to make your deck run on 20 land looks quite adventurous, right? ..especially considering you boast 5 actual CMC4 spells on top of that. I actually got the impression your virtual average CMC is pretty identical to Miracle Control's - but keep in mind that those guys run 4 Tops as consistent mana fixers.

So yeah, -2 Ponder +2 Island seems legit to me.
What do you think?

Edit: forgot to mention your deck looks very cool otherwise!

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This is the list I'm working on right now:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures: 12
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers: 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Spells: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Humility
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant

It's straight UW for consistency in the mana base and the ability to run factories (also because I don't have deltas or Seas...). Not sure if 23 is the right number of lands, might be one too many but my curve is pretty high with running 5 planeswalkers. Only 3 TNN so I can run the 2 Cliques, this is more controlling than Esper so I like having the Cliques in there. Also being a slower control list I like having the hard counters as opposed to the taxing counters. Spell Snare besides just being good incidentally hits some of the main cards used to hate against TNN (Zealous Persucution and Golgari Charm).

The 2 Elspeth are a personal choice just because I think she's very underplayed for how good she is. She's better than Jace in a losing board state and almost as much of a must answer, she also helps close out games way faster.

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated!

[fergy57]

chaos;776831']This is the list I'm working on right now:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures: 12
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers: 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Spells: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Humility
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant

It's straight UW for consistency in the mana base and the ability to run factories (also because I don't have deltas or Seas...). Not sure if 23 is the right number of lands, might be one too many but my curve is pretty high with running 5 planeswalkers. Only 3 TNN so I can run the 2 Cliques, this is more controlling than Esper so I like having the Cliques in there. Also being a slower control list I like having the hard counters as opposed to the taxing counters. Spell Snare besides just being good incidentally hits some of the main cards used to hate against TNN (Zealous Persucution and Golgari Charm).

The 2 Elspeth are a personal choice just because I think she's very underplayed for how good she is. She's better than Jace in a losing board state and almost as much of a must answer, she also helps close out games way faster.

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated!

I've ran a similar list at a couple events. I found that only having 4 brainstorms and no ponders didn't give the deck enough dig. I've been thinking of cutting 1 Snapcaster and moving either 1 Clique or Truename from the maindeck to the board in order to accomodate 2 maindeck ponders. I honestly feel like they will make the deck run smoother, as it can be prone to bad draws.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I tried out 2 lands in place of ponders. I put in another Tundra and another Plains as a total of 4x Island is hitting the basics a little heavy and plays fairly clunky. I do like the changes, occasionally I have missed the Ponders as well, but I am running 3 Jace, so...I'm not sure where I stand right now, but I am liking my list as a whole. It's really good. I think Esper is top-notch.
I think at this point, if I were to include ponder, I'm not sure whether it would be one or two, but here are some "available" slots:

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tombstalker
1 Swords to Plowshares

Any opinions as to what ponders might replace, and how many and why? I'm playtesting this list against Death and Taxes over winter break. Nothing conclusive at this point, but I'll be testing more soon.

-ABC

Edit: Was thinking earlier at work that SDTop may be an option for the deck. Not as a 4 of, but a single, maybe two-of in the deck. Slower than top, but I think overall more fruitful. It doesn't "combo" with Snapcaster, but leaves Snapcaster to be useful elsewhere. Competes for mana, though. That's a topic to touch on, I would think. I know top has fallen out of favor in a lot of minds, but it's still a powerful card in a deck like this. 9 fetches, 4 SFM. So much shuffling.

[klaus]

I tried out 2 lands in place of ponders. I put in another Tundra and another Plains as a total of 4x Island is hitting the basics a little heavy and plays fairly clunky. I do like the changes, occasionally I have missed the Ponders as well, but I am running 3 Jace, so...I'm not sure where I stand right now, but I am liking my list as a whole. It's really good. I think Esper is top-notch.
I think at this point, if I were to include ponder, I'm not sure whether it would be one or two, but here are some "available" slots:

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tombstalker
1 Swords to Plowshares

Any opinions as to what ponders might replace, and how many and why? I'm playtesting this list against Death and Taxes over winter break. Nothing conclusive at this point, but I'll be testing more soon.

-ABC

Edit: Was thinking earlier at work that SDTop may be an option for the deck. Not as a 4 of, but a single, maybe two-of in the deck. Slower than top, but I think overall more fruitful. Also it doesn't "combo" with Snapcaster, but leaves Snapcaster to be useful elsewhere. Competes for mana, though. That's a topic to touch on, I would think. I know top has fallen out of favor in a lot of minds, but it's still a powerful card in a deck like this. 9 fetches, 4 SFM. So much shuffling.


.

Those would be my candidates to cut for a Ponder:

1 Tombstalker
PROs: I do love this guy in here for his surprise effect plus as a one of you'll be able to cast him for 2 more often than not as soon as you draw him. Doesn't suffer from Golgari Charms and the likes.
CONs: BB casting cost, DRSs eating your yard and most of all: he's the only STP-worthy target and will draw them like sh**.

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
PROs: Most powerful blue Control spell next to BS, nough said.
CONs: your very high curve

1 TNN
Few lists run the full play set. I guess they don't want to completely open up themselves to the growing amount of dedicated TNN hate and actually might have a point. 3 seems like the perfect number to me atm.

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Cons: Casting cost: CMC4 and WW is kind of tough, but her +1 ability is super sexy especially in the wake of the Miracles' rise - there is NO better anti-Miracles hate imo.

@ SDT: I would definitely favor Ponder, as it provides more tempo, something your approach somewhat lacks

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The reason I run 4 TNN is exactly why you say to run 3 lol. I think I will drop the stalker simply because he was an afterthought, does draw removal like the plague and requires bb, something this deck cannot appreciate. I think if I want another threat I will consider Lingering Souls or Vendilion Clique instead.

Edit: I just dropped a TNN to allow for a single clique in the main. This opened up a board slot and allows me to run another disruption spell post board. Thoughtseize probably.
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[rancOr_]

Hi guys! Long time esper player here.. I'm sharing my list for discussion ,haven't posted it here yet. I have had a lot of great results with it,but looking to tune it even more..

3underground sea
3tundra
1scrubland
4polluted delta
4flooded strand
2marsh flats
2island
1plains
1swamp
1karakas
3TNN
3snapcaster mage
4stoneforge mystic
1vendilion clique
4brainstorm
3FoW
2ponder
2spell pierce
1counterspell
4swords to plowshares
3thoughtseize
1inquisition of kozilek
1supreme verdict
1 batterskull
1umezawa's jitte
1sword of feast and famine
3jace,the mind sculptor
Sideboard:
2duress
2flusterstorm
1fow
2meddling mage
1vendilion clique
1notion thief
2perish
2zealous persecution
1supreme verdict
1vindicate.

I like maindecking sword of FxF alot.. It makes ur stoneforges live against combo g1 and u can perhaps take games with a hand like seize,sfm,fow,.. for ex. I think it's way more useful then yet another sword like fire and ice. I'm not a fan of academy ruins/ee here,I like a stable manabase with 10fetch. I'm still playing both perish(Jund ,shardless,bug,elves, )and zealous(elves,dxt,TNN decks,..) The notion thief is solid like always. The only spots I'm not sure about are vindicate and maybe one perish/zealous. Also, I maybe want to include a disenchant or manriki! I'm a huge fan of boarding the maximum vs all combo decks,so -4stp,-1verdict,-1jitte,-3tnn,+2duress,+2fluster,+1fow,+1clique ,+2meddling mage,+1notion thief mostly.
Any ideas/comments/suggestions? Thanks in advance! Greetings

[danyul]

Mister rancor sir, you seem like a nice enough guy. But your post is extremely difficult to read due to your (mis)use of spacing and punctuation. I suggest that you edit it to make it more readable. Otherwise it may be difficult to engage people in discussion if they simply glaze over your potentially great ideas simply because they are formatted strangely.

Edit - :highfive:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think meddling mage may be bad here. You are in black so discard is probably better overall. They can generally get out from under a mage via abrupt decay/chain of Vapor/red blast. I may be wrong but in my experience as both a storm player and a blue player says it's bad...

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[pe5e]

I think meddling mage may be bad here. You are in black so discard is probably better overall. They can generally get out from under a mage via abrupt decay/chain of Vapor/red blast. I may be wrong but in my experience as both a storm player and a blue player says it's bad...

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I dont think more discard is better than some number of Meddling Mages. Do you really want more than 6 discard spells along Snapcaster Mage? Splitting hate is better most of the time. If you land a Mage backed up by discard or counters it should be a lot harder for the comboplayer to go off because he has to find Abrupt Decay/Bounce AND Discard/Counters. If you use only discard and counters the comboplayer only needs to find one kind of antihate. Also Meddling Mage is a clock and can be protected by equipment in narrow cases.

[Dzra]

Splitting hate is always better. Hate that clocks is even saucier.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well I am slightly dissatisfied with my curve. I feel like moar ponder, but I'm @ 61 cards and only a single ponder. I'm thinking of dropping the 3rd jace for ponder #2. The mana base is doing great, I'm just getting left without the flexibility I'm used to.

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[matunos]

You might want something that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Bolt and that TNN can't block profitably. Something like Cockatrice perhaps?

Cockatrice? Lol. Sylvan Basilisk is just so much better there.

Alternatively, TNN can't block fliers or dudes equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice.

[HSCK]

That card is definitely the tech...I wonder what innovations we'll be seeing this weekend in Indy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Has anyone had issues with blood moon? I run 4 basics but an early moon really hurts. Sneak and show can slam one down turn1 and even with 4 basics, no fetches makes it difficult for a 3-color deck. Not as bad as UWr delver but our curve is a bit higher, and they are at least somewhat on color.

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[useL]

Has anyone had issues with blood moon? I run 4 basics but an early moon really hurts. Sneak and show can slam one down turn1 and even with 4 basics, no fetches makes it difficult for a 3-color deck. Not as bad as UWr delver but our curve is a bit higher, and they are at least somewhat on color.

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Nothing you can do. They can also Show and Tell turn 1. Run your usual disenchant and hope that you have counters at the ready. That scenario never happens or when it does you might as well have a force of will.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I guess my question is, is that a normal sideboard choice against us for SnT to make, bringing in the blood moons?

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[matunos]

I guess my question is, is that a normal sideboard choice against us for SnT to make, bringing in the blood moons?

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I don't know if it's right, but S&T players will often bring in Blood Moon.

The thing is, they usually can't slam one down T1, and if you're fetching wisely early, the value to them is much diminished and can actually be counterproductive to their plans.

I suspect there is some next leveling involved– if they think you're going to play around Blood Moon they probably don't want it cause you taxing your mana to play around it is good enough for them; if they think they can catch you unawares, they'll bring it in. It may be a case of side in for Game 2 for a free win, side out for Game 3 if you're playing around it.

[useL]

So, I've been thinking. What happens if you replace the black pieces in an esper list with red sideboard cards and still use the same shell. Ofc the maindeck discard needs to be replaced by fluster/pierce/snare but otherwise the sideboard would be stronger against the TNN meta.

[Deckerator]

But why do you wanna drop black ? Black gives you access to Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague etc. Sp many good cards against TNN
If you ask me i would stay with black. Furthermore you have Thoughtseize to kik TNN out of the opponents' hand.

[useL]

But why do you wanna drop black ? Black gives you access to Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague etc. Sp many good cards against TNN
If you ask me i would stay with black. Furthermore you have Thoughtseize to kik TNN out of the opponents' hand.

Black can never protect itself from a topdeck and doesnt take care of jace on board. Which is something red does. I know of all the strong black cards, but I just feel that I board out almost all discard against so many decks. Information is key, but what if I whiff and he draws it from the top? On the other hand, the situation might be reverse where I draw into a REB and not ZP to kill his TNN.

[FortyThree]

How do we feel about Liliana in the sideboard to combat Miracles? The deck is looking like it's making a resurgence in my meta (3 of the top 4 decks yesterday were Miracles, with me being the only one not). I lost my only match yesterday against Miracles, but I lost soundly. Granted, I don't have a huge amount of experience with the matchup, but I know that miracles has problems with planeswalkers on the other side of the board.

Liliana could be incidentally brought in as well against combo decks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a one trick pony. The only issue I'm concerned about is the double black, though.

Thoughts?

[pe5e]

How do we feel about Liliana in the sideboard to combat Miracles? The deck is looking like it's making a resurgence in my meta (3 of the top 4 decks yesterday were Miracles, with me being the only one not). I lost my only match yesterday against Miracles, but I lost soundly. Granted, I don't have a huge amount of experience with the matchup, but I know that miracles has problems with planeswalkers on the other side of the board.

Liliana could be incidentally brought in as well against combo decks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a one trick pony. The only issue I'm concerned about is the double black, though.

Thoughts?

Liliana sure is a decent Option, but i think more Vendillion Clique and Pithing Needle are even better. I personaly always play the 1-off Clique since it prevents Entreats, Terminus, catches Jace and Liliana eot and is still decent against combo. Needle names Top most of the time, because Miracle is just a durdle-top.dec and if they cant control their draws the deck gets a lot weaker. Kinda depends on how much TNN you are facing too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Black is bad against top decks but that's why you have blue. Black takes a card and gives you information about what to counter (or what not to). It stops them from baiting counters also. I much prefer the control aspect of black to the removal and extra damage of red. A lightning bolt is a better top deck but overall I would rather the control.

As far as liliana goes I've never felt like she is worth it. Then again I've never felt like I needed anything she has to offer.
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[useL]

How do we feel about Liliana in the sideboard to combat Miracles? The deck is looking like it's making a resurgence in my meta (3 of the top 4 decks yesterday were Miracles, with me being the only one not). I lost my only match yesterday against Miracles, but I lost soundly. Granted, I don't have a huge amount of experience with the matchup, but I know that miracles has problems with planeswalkers on the other side of the board.

Liliana could be incidentally brought in as well against combo decks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a one trick pony. The only issue I'm concerned about is the double black, though.

Thoughts?

Notion Thief. Miracles dont care about Liliana.

[Einherjer]

Notion Thief. Miracles dont care about Liliana.

Claiming that Miracles don't care about Liliana is a bold statement, and most likely straight up wrong. Liliana forces Miracle to act - as it will nuke down alot of their permanents once ultimated.

BUT

Liliana is a threat against Miracle in decks like Jund or such, that can commit all of their hand onto the board as soon as they draw it. Esperblade cannot really do that.

Concluding, yeah Lilly is a fine idea against Miracles, but needs a dedicated and probably overall worse boardingplan, resulting in unnecessary dissynergies and such. Notion Thief on the other hand is good and fits into your playstyle. So yeah, agreed on Notion Thief being better, but not on your reasoning.

Greetings

[useL]

Claiming that Miracles don't care about Liliana is a bold statement, and most likely straight up wrong. Liliana forces Miracle to act - as it will nuke down alot of their permanents once ultimated.

BUT

Liliana is a threat against Miracle in decks like Jund or such, that can commit all of their hand onto the board as soon as they draw it. Esperblade cannot really do that.

Concluding, yeah Lilly is a fine idea against Miracles, but needs a dedicated and probably overall worse boardingplan, resulting in unnecessary dissynergies and such. Notion Thief on the other hand is good and fits into your playstyle. So yeah, agreed on Notion Thief being better, but not on your reasoning.

Greetings

Thats what you get for answering shortly on your phone. What I meant is that a single Liliana without any pressure (just like you said) does almost nothing against miracles until it reaches 7 loyalty. Discarding cards when there is nothing on board except her means nothing since miracles can filter and just find that answer to her quite quickly. I would rather resolve a Notion Thief than a Liliana against miracles. Especially when they draw a card with top that will otherwise ruin my day.

[matunos]

Liliana is not as rough against Miracles as some other decks if they have a resolved Top because they can manipulate card order even if hellbent. She has to be answered eventually, but without anything else pressuring them, Miracles can tough it through even an ultimate (Top can always survive an ultimate). Jace usually trumps her.

She's more effective in Jund because they can use Hymn to get you hellbent faster, get her out faster, and develop lots of board pressure.

Notion Thief is cute and can lead to blowouts, but Miracles has lots of creature removal and waiting for an opportune time to cast him may lead you to trouble. Vendilion Clique is probably just better, because it can interact directly with the miracle mechanic, and is better in combo matchups. I play with one main and one on the board.

Equipment is also good because Miracles can't deal with that very well.

Engineered Explosives can get rid of Counterbalance while being cast at inconvenient CMCs.

If they don't have Rest in Peace out, Lingering Souls can present a resilient problem for them, especially if you have equipment to suit them up with.

Elspeth is also good (better than Lilliana I'd say), but then the issue is WW instead of BB.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

WW is so much easier to attain than BB. This deck is UW Stoneblade with a small black splash. Liliana is best against matchups that are already good for the most part and I like notion thief for Miracles but I think that Elspeth is better than both. As far as clique is concerned, it's good but they play their own Legendary creature package along with Karakas. Also, top makes clique worse.

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[useL]

WW is so much easier to attain than BB. This deck is UW Stoneblade with a small black splash.

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I would say that you are wrong. Most lists play with these sources:

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Island
9-11 Fetches/utilitylands

This calls for the exact same manaavailability.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I guess it's possible. I prefer the 4/2 split on tundra and USea, respectively. 9 fetches and a karakas. I also checked my list and realized I'm running a 2nd plains. Herm. I run 2 jace and a main deck elspeth. Anyway after looking over my list I suppose it's not a run - of - the - mill netdeck. For me, I guess I'm right.

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[Qweerios]

I am curious on the differences between Deathblade and (Esper)Blade Control. I think playing Bob makes a deck Deathblade but how about playing DRS or FoW? Is it considered Deathblade to play any amount of DRS? Isn't Deathblade generally too low on blue cards to support FoW, and thus plays additional discard? Both decks share a common creature suite (SFM, Nemesis, Snapcaster/Clique), similar disruption (TS, IoK, FoW, Pierce), and a couple of Jaces. Is it considered Blade Control if you play more than 3 basic lands, or any number of sweepers (EE, Verdict)? The line between the two archetypes is very slim. If 4 DRS is all it takes to draw the line, I think it is a bit excessive to talk about different decks altogether.

Anyways, here's the list I play and how it fluctuates:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder

Others (6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
2 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Sometimes I like to go the 3/3 split between Snap and Nemesis or the 2/2 split between TS and IoK. Sometimes the Lilies and the 4th USea make way for a combination of Vindicates, Edicts, Island/Waste. Sometimes I like to play a 3/3/2 split between TS/FoW/Pierce. If I were to change 4 DRS for something like a couple of sweepers and counters, would it be more appropriate to discuss card choices in this thread?

[Deadpool09]

I am curious on the differences between Deathblade and (Esper)Blade Control. I think playing Bob makes a deck Deathblade but how about playing DRS or FoW? Is it considered Deathblade to play any amount of DRS? Isn't Deathblade generally too low on blue cards to support FoW, and thus plays additional discard? Both decks share a common creature suite (SFM, Nemesis, Snapcaster/Clique), similar disruption (TS, IoK, FoW, Pierce), and a couple of Jaces. Is it considered Blade Control if you play more than 3 basic lands, or any number of sweepers (EE, Verdict)? The line between the two archetypes is very slim. If 4 DRS is all it takes to draw the line, I think it is a bit excessive to talk about different decks altogether.

Anyways, here's the list I play and how it fluctuates:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Thoughtseize
2 Ponder

Others (6)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
2 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Sometimes I like to go the 3/3 split between Snap and Nemesis or the 2/2 split between TS and IoK. Sometimes the Lilies and the 4th USea make way for a combination of Vindicates, Edicts, Island/Waste. Sometimes I like to play a 3/3/2 split between TS/FoW/Pierce. If I were to change 4 DRS for something like a couple of sweepers and counters, would it be more appropriate to discuss card choices in this thread?
i like the list, if i own lilianas ill squeeze them in. right now i cant decide whether i should stick with deathblade or just esper. im planning inplaying legacy open in orlando. so far heres my esper list.

4 sfm
3 snapcaster mage
3 tnn
1 vendilion clique

4 brainsoptorm
1 ponder
1 counterspell
3 fow
2 spell pierce
2 thoughtsize
1 iok
4 stp
1 detenion sphere
1 spreme verdict
1 vindicate

1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 engeineered explosives

3 jtms

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marshlats
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 karakas
1 acaemy ruins( engeneered explosives and manrikigusari battles)
2 wasteland
1 glaial fortress (choke)

i wanna squueze in lingering souls here somewhere but its already a tight fit.
its either this or deathblade. almost the exact list minus the explosives, supremeverdict, clique, and the counterspell.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I dont think this deck can break lili's symmetry well enough to justify her inclusion. Furthermore, I think pithing needle from the board is better versus miracles as well. Naming top, it forces them to either force or wear//tear the needle. However, without the top, they are more likely to struggle to find the 1-2 artifact/enchantment removal spells in their deck.

[Arsenal]

I dont think this deck can break lili's symmetry well enough to justify her inclusion. Furthermore, I think pithing needle from the board is better versus miracles as well. Naming top, it forces them to either force or wear//tear the needle. However, without the top, they are more likely to struggle to find the 1-2 artifact/enchantment removal spells in their deck.

If you're running Lingering Souls, then Snapcaster Mage flashing back discarded StP/Thoughseize/etc and Lingering Souls should be enough to make Liliana run smoothly should you choose to run her. When I was playing Vidi's GP Denver list, I found opposing Liliana's to be quite manageable due to decreased value from her discard thanks to Snapcaster and Lingering Souls.

[Malakai]

I don't understand why you guys are playing basic Swamp. The only time you ever want it is if you're on the draw against turn-1 Delver AND you want to spend your turn playing a discard spell. I feel like the rest of the time it actually makes the manabase worse.

[Malakai]

I dont think this deck can break lili's symmetry well enough to justify her inclusion. Furthermore, I think pithing needle from the board is better versus miracles as well. Naming top, it forces them to either force or wear//tear the needle. However, without the top, they are more likely to struggle to find the 1-2 artifact/enchantment removal spells in their deck.

On the contrary, I don't think you need any cards that break Liliana's symmetry at _all_. Liliana is not symmetrical. Few opponents can win from topdeck mode when you have an edict on the table.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand why you guys are playing basic Swamp. The only time you ever want it is if you're on the draw against turn-1 Delver AND you want to spend your turn playing a discard spell. I feel like the rest of the time it actually makes the manabase worse.

Basic Swamp was actually fairly important in the Lingering Souls heyday as having access to a guaranteed black source was paramount in those grindy matchups. Nowadays, with lists running sometimes 0 Lingering Souls, meh. I mean, we run enough black spells to justify a singleton Swamp, but it does lead to sometimes wonky openers.

[Malakai]

4 sfm
3 snapcaster mage
3 tnn
1 vendilion clique

4 brainsoptorm
1 ponder
1 counterspell
3 fow
2 spell pierce
2 thoughtsize
1 iok
4 stp
1 detenion sphere
1 spreme verdict
1 vindicate

1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 engeineered explosives

3 jtms

Nine seems like too many three drops.

[Malakai]

Basic Swamp was actually fairly important in the Lingering Souls heyday as having access to a guaranteed black source was paramount in those grindy matchups. Nowadays, with lists running sometimes 0 Lingering Souls, meh. I mean, we run enough black spells to justify a singleton Swamp, but it does lead to sometimes wonky openers.

I think it's good in decks with 2+ Lingering Souls, but it has to replace either a colorless land or a spell. Imo.

[Valtrix]

On the contrary, I don't think you need any cards that break Liliana's symmetry at _all_. Liliana is not symmetrical. Few opponents can win from topdeck mode when you have an edict on the table.

I completely agree with this.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

On the topic of the Swamp, it's necessary post board vs death and taxes and UWr Delver. Wastelands and ports are somewhat difficult to fight through to land a Dread of Night or Zealous Persecution.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

So what are sideboards looking like these days? What do you guys think esperblade's worst matchups are and how and what do you board?

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[Pherion]

Great discussion here guys, I'm enjoying what I'm reading!

Let me put out my current deck list, then I'll talk about some of the topics you guys are hitting on.

Lands (22)
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Creatues (11)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

Main Deck
My list is pretty stock, with the exception of the Mana Leak. When tweeking the list today, I ended up with one slot in the main deck open. I contemplated the standard Ponder, but with my 3 Snapcaster Mages I wanted something a little more high impact. Here's the list of cards I considered.

Mana Leak - I ended up deciding on this over Counterspell.
Ponder - Standard option. Smooths draws, and provides versatility.
Spell Pierce - It would be my 4th. Considering the number of combo decks showing up lately it's worth considering.
Unearth - This is a fun little card I saw a friend playing a year or so ago in an esper shell. Makes Snapcaster Mage even more fun, and recurrs TNN.
Detention Sphere - Just versatile removal, but a bit pricey.
Diabolic Edict - I have one in the board, so I couldn't really justify one in the main as well.
Counterspell - What I really wanted was an additional counterspell. A hard counter is best, but UU is just a little iffy when I'm also aiming for Liliana of the Veil. Mana leak won out since it's usually a hard counter anyway!

Mana Base
I feel like my mana base is relatively straight forward. I'm running 4 basics, with a 4/2 split between Tundra and Underground Sea. I originally had a Creeping Tar Pit, but CIP tapped just killed it for me too many times. Eight fetches feels right with 4 Brainstorm and 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and the Karakas feels mandatory with two Vendilion Cliques and a good number of SnT decks in Indianapolis.

Sideboard
Graveyard Hate - I'm running three Surgical Extraction because of the Snapcaster Mages in the main. I also feel that the biggest graveyard card right now is Punishing Fire, and surgical solves that quickly. Tarmogoyfs and Deathrite Shamans are still a problem, but I feel they can be dealt with by the rest of the deck.

Combo Hate - I've got a lot of this. Indianapolis showed a lot of SnT and Reanimator, and Orlando has Reanimator, Omni-Tell, and ANT so I thought it would be a good idea to stock up. That said, most of these cards have alternate uses as well.

Meddling Mage - I love this guy. Hate bears in an equipment deck are just too good. He can name anything, just depends on what your scared of at the moment. He can also come in for non-combo match-ups. Name Abrupt Decay against Jund for instance.
Flusterstorm - Pretty simple, they are Spell Pierce four and five. Can also come in for URW, or the mirror.
Thoughtseize - Extra discard to ensure it's in the starting hand if possible. I chose Thoughtseize for it's versatility, and the matches where I want this the two life is irrelevant.
Vendilion Clique - I've got a Karakas in the main to support this guy, and he simply trumps SnT most of the time!
Diabolic Edict - While I initially included this for TNN, it turns out to be pretty darn good against SnT!

Other Utility Cards - Just a few other things that got included. Manriki-Gusari is for the TNN equipment match-ups. Zealous Persecution is for the same thing, but also works for DnT and Elves. Finally there's a utility Disenchant.

I'm not sure if Esper is the best deck right now, but it's the one I'm most comfortable with. I wanted to go with Shardless BUG, but all the RIP scared me away! I'm be doing more testing in preparation for the SCG Baltimore Open at the end of the month. I'll be interested to see what everyone else has to say!


I dont think this deck can break lili's symmetry well enough to justify her inclusion. Furthermore, I think pithing needle from the board is better versus miracles as well. Naming top, it forces them to either force or wear//tear the needle. However, without the top, they are more likely to struggle to find the 1-2 artifact/enchantment removal spells in their deck.
I have to agree with above that Snapcaster Mage can break this symmetry pretty quickly. Also that it's not necessarily symmetric. If you have a Lilly on a clear board, and everyone is topdecking (this happens a LOT), the it's almost impossible for the opposition to win through creatures. They have to draw two or three in a row just to get Lilly down to a managable level, and then hope you don't draw a removal spell Snappy.


Notion Thief is cute and can lead to blowouts, but Miracles has lots of creature removal and waiting for an opportune time to cast him may lead you to trouble. Vendilion Clique is probably just better, because it can interact directly with the miracle mechanic, and is better in combo matchups. I play with one main and one on the board.
I have to agree. I've tried Notion Thief a few times, and it's just pitiful. Clique does so much more work. It gives you information, is evasive, and plays well with Karakas!

[FortyThree]

My sideboard is geared mainly towards combo as well, which is quite prevalent in my meta. ANT in particular is super popular, which explains the Canonists:

2 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Duress
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
1 Spell Pierce
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So is combo a problem? I was under the impression that we do pretty okay Pre-sideboard and better post. What do you think about Dread of night for the board as a one of for death and taxes? I'm running 1 along 2 ZP.

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[rancOr_]

I think dread of night is too narrow. I'd just play 2zealous persecutions as they have play against elves,tnn/grixis too. U can also flash it back with snapcaster. If you need additional removal verdict is better I think.. I haven't got too much problems with Dxt with 2supreme verdict and 2zealous persecution post.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Death and taxes makes it very tough to get a verdict online. 5 is a lot, especially through ports and wastes. I run 1 verdict main, 2 ZP and 1 DoN side.

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[jedi_gof]

Dread of night is unnecessary, D&T is a fine MU without and persecutions makes it even better.
I would play D&T all day if i could, but still find dread of night overkill. I would rather play a e. plague to have further options vs elves and other tribal decks before i even consider dread.

Combo is hard, thats why we overload the board with hate. Pseudo mirrors and creature mu's we're doing fine in already when counting in the ZPs as well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So how do you board against Death and taxes, elves, JunkBlade, mud and merfolk?

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[Qweerios]

I played against DnT yesterday and had lots of great games. I used the list I posted on the previous page and boarded -4 FoW, -4 TS for +2 Edicts, +2 ZP, +2 Clique, +1 Needle, +1 Disenchant. DnT has a hard time beating Nemesis and Jittes.

[Pherion]

So how do you board against Death and taxes, elves, JunkBlade, mud and merfolk?

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With my current build I would do the following:

DnT
Out
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize

In
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant

I would probably leave the disenchant at home, it's just for Aether Vial. I would keep in two forces for their really important threats. Meddling Mages I'm on the fence about. They can name tricky things like Flickerwisp, Mangara of Corondor, or even Aether Vial if they don't land one t1.

Elves
Out
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mana Leak
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce

In
3 Meddling Mage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Thoughtseize

This is already a pretty good match-up. If you can get out a Umezawa's Jitte while preventing them from going off you're usually good. Lilly is just bad since they can flood the board out. Jace is OK, but I feel the disruption is just better - TNN is going to kill them. Two of the taxing counters come out. Pierce because it can't counter creatures. Both because elves produces sooo much mana.

Junk
Out
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

In
2 Meddling Mage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Diabolic Edict

I think this match is probably already OK. If they are running Hymn I might consider taking out more FoW. Meddling Mage comes in to name Abrupt Decay. Since they don't have access to Bolt, this pretty much prevents them from removing anything on the board w/o a Lilly.

Mud - Really, that's not a deck!
Out
Really having trouble thinking of what's not good....
1 Umezawa's Jitte

In
3 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant

Most of the deck already feels good for this match. I guess Pierces could come out since they kill you with creatures.... but then stopping their acceleration is more important (IMO). I like Meddling Mage since you can name the one trump they might have - Steel Hellkite or Karn Liberated for instance...

Merfolk
Out
2 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize

In
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution

If they play Standstill, all you have to do is respond to it's casting by ruining their board state and you pretty much win. Otherwise, just keep lords off of the board and play around Daze. Also, always break a standstill right away. Letting it sit is a good way to give them all the advantage.

[useL]

I would probably leave the disenchant at home, it's just for Aether Vial.



I like your sideboard solutions but this feels wrong. You can also disenchant their equipments and Phyrexian Revoker. Just the revoker bit seems strong enough and then on top of that you have all their equipment. Also, if they bring in additional hate like Pithing Needle, then it will be even more useful.

[Pherion]

I like your sideboard solutions but this feels wrong. You can also disenchant their equipments and Phyrexian Revoker. Just the revoker bit seems strong enough and then on top of that you have all their equipment. Also, if they bring in additional hate like Pithing Needle, then it will be even more useful.

You're right. I wasn't thinking of equipment! In fact I played a game today against DnT. Disenchant did lots of work. The match is really easy though. Game 1 I ended up with a Jace and Lilly out ><, and game 2 he went all in w/ a t1 vial and walked into a Force.

[Qweerios]

You're right. I wasn't thinking of equipment! In fact I played a game today against DnT. Disenchant did lots of work. The match is really easy though. Game 1 I ended up with a Jace and Lilly out ><, and game 2 he went all in w/ a t1 vial and walked into a Force.

I wouldn't say DnT is an easy matchup for any deck really, it is just a very good and resilient deck all around. The disparity between good and bad DnT players is very large however, and that can make all the difference.

[Lans89]

I just had another game against Shardless BUG. Even when it goes well, it will just take a little longer, and Shardless BUG will win after using more than half of it's deck :frown:
Ofc they could be screwed sometimes and you will be able to land a Jace or Batterskull in time, but still... I just hope to dodge the deck ^_^!

[Arsenal]

Went 3-1 at a SCG Open Trial with UW Stoneblade, good for 3rd out of 12. Beat RUG Delver, Sneak & Show and Reanimator, lost to Patriot. I liked being able to fetch for lots of basics without worry of Wasteland/Blood Moon. Swan Song is the stone cold nuts versus Sneak & Show.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What happened in the UWR Delver match? I don't get much play against the matchup.

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[Arsenal]

He was on the play game 1 and just had the nuts; SFM -> Batterskull + 3 Force of Wills to protect. Game 2, I kept a greedy hand and got punished for it by his Wasteland + my Brainstorm not finding me additional colored mana sources. The match was over in like 8 minutes or something.

A few things I learned/re-affirmed was that Rest in Peace is nutty vs. RUG Delver, Swan Song is insane vs. Sneak & Show, and having a rock solid manabase is the way to ensure TNN and Jace are hitting consistently.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How is the matchup generally speaking? How do you normally sideboard against it?

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[Lemnear]

Was struggling hard lately to make Jace stick, not only because of the tax to play around Daze and Pierce, but also because of REB's. Thinking about other ways to create some CA like adjusting the count of Snapcasters and maybe add Liliana's to get rid of TNN and Fatties.

What's your take on the cardadvantage/Planeswalkers atm? I'm not quite up to date and would like to catch up as well as hearing recent experience with TNN vs. Clique. Thx guys

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Would a couple of Lingering Souls be an option? It may be no good as a lot of threats in this deck die to -1/-1 effects but I thought I would mention it because it is something that I have been thinking about lately. Could just tweak the permission with those slots. I am playing elspeth in my list and I love her. I have also thought about a 3-way split putting 1 of each in. I dunno.

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[Lans89]

Was struggling hard lately to make Jace stick, not only because of the tax to play around Daze and Pierce, but also because of REB's. Thinking about other ways to create some CA like adjusting the count of Snapcasters and maybe add Liliana's to get rid of TNN and Fatties.

What's your take on the cardadvantage/Planeswalkers atm? I'm not quite up to date and would like to catch up as well as hearing recent experience with TNN vs. Clique. Thx guys

I dropped to 2 Jace and they come out vs half of the decks that see play, but I will not drop them entirely. But I also play 2 copy's of Snapcaster, and don't want more with all the Deathrites around. I also tried 1 Liliana but I too often don't want to discard...

[Lemnear]

I dropped to 2 Jace and they come out vs half of the decks that see play, but I will not drop them entirely. But I also play 2 copy's of Snapcaster, and don't want more with all the Deathrites around. I also tried 1 Liliana but I too often don't want to discard...

The Liliana-issues is imo closely tied to running a build without FoW (at least in the MD). Could be wrong, but the number of cards in Hand usually drops fast in general

[Arsenal]

How is the matchup generally speaking? How do you normally sideboard against it?

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If he's on the play, it's pretty rough as they can just open with Delver + protect it ftw some games while also being able to play a more grindy-midrange game of SFM-Equipment-TNN, all while keeping you off kilter with Wasteland and soft counters. It's pretty rough if you're on the draw. We did play some funsies games after the tourney match and I crushed him as I was able to land my SFM first, land my TNN first (fetching basics is key and I do not fear Stifle as Owen's Patriot list doesn't run them). Patriot is fairly threat light, like most Delver decks are, so if you can StP/counter they dude, do so. Often times that'll be their only threat, then they spend the next turn or two burning cantrips, digging for another threat while also trying to stop yours from coming down. If I can push the game to turn 4-5, and I'm still at a reasonable life total while facing down 1 threat, I feel like I'm getting there as my later game (Jace, Verdict) just trumps pretty much anything that have.

I believe I boarded like this versus Patriot:

-2 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Counterspell, +1 Disenchant
-1 Snapcaster Mage, +1 Supreme Verdict

My feeling is that I should be able to get there unless he has the nuts. Game 1, he had turn 1 Delver on the play + 3 FoWs in his first 10 cards, so there wasn't anything I could do about that. Like I said, game 2, I kept a greedy hand and got punished for it. Our funsies games though played out as I think it normally will (I crushed) unless he has the stonecold nuts.

This is my list I took to the SCG Open Trial:

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Meddling Mage

Against RUG Delver, I boarded as such:

-3 Snapcaster Mage, + 3 Rest in Peace
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, +1 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Counterspell, +1 Supreme Verdict

My thought behind cutting Snapcaster was that Rest in Peace has a much, much greater impact on their deck than Snapcaster does, plus I know that RUG boards in a healthy amount of REBs/Pyroblasts, so Snapcaster's effectiveness is reduced even further. As expected, Rest in Peace was a blowout in games 2 and 3, effectively leaving him with 4-6 actual threats once his Goyfs and Mongeese were neutralized by Rest in Peace.

With Bolt, REB/Pyroblast and opposing TNN running rampant in RUG Delver postboard, I felt comfortable boarding out a Jace and going more on the SFM-Equipment-TNN plan which typically trumps decks that are running TNN (he brought in 2 postboard), but no equipment. I cut a Counterspell in favor of having access to 2 Supreme Verdict as RUG Delver can sometimes get the nut hand with 1-3 threats on board while gripping 4 counterspells.

Against Sneak & Show, I boarded as such:

-3 True-Name Nemesis, +3 Meddling Mage
-2 Spell Snare, +2 Swan Song
-2 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Venser, Shaper Savant, +1 Detention Sphere
-1 Counterspell, +1 Flusterstorm
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Disenchant

True-Name Nemesis does nothing in this matchup whereas Meddling Mage comes down a turn earlier and can wreak havoc on Sneak & Show. Spell Snare hits nothing in their deck, whereas Swan Song hits literally every spell of theirs. Venser + Detention Sphere can do work off a Show & Tell or just simply hardcast at the opportune time whereas StPs are mostly dead (I kept 2 just in case of Grizzeldaddy). Flusterstorm does a better job of ending counterwars than Counterspell does and for 1 less mana at that. SoFaF vs. combo is a gimme, so SoFaI came out. And Supreme Verdict is worse than Disenchant vs. a deck that will have Blood Moon, Pithing Needle and Sneak Attack postboard.

Swan Song, Disenchant and SoFaF were MVPs for games 2 and 3. Swan Song countered a Blood Moon (keeping my Karakas turned on) game 2 and SoFaF sealed the deal game 3 as he couldn't keep both combo pieces in hand thanks to the discard trigger. Swan Song was particularly nice as tapping a single mana versus Sneak & Show's 3-4 mana just felt like pure win all the time.

[DragoFireheart]

I have a question:

How awesome does it feel to have a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice/
Umezawa's Jitte and then turn that equipped TNN sideways? Is it satisfying? Does it improve the quality of your life?

Is Decay an issue with it being able to blow up non-BS equips?

[HSCK]

How does it feel to have TNN in the format? Does it crush your soul and make you scream for a ban in your nightmares?

Equipment makes TNN far more deadly, so yes, Decay is a pretty good answer.

[DragoFireheart]

How does it feel to have TNN in the format? Does it crush your soul and make you scream for a ban in your nightmares?

Nah, I just Terminus.



Equipment makes TNN far more deadly, so yes, Decay is a pretty good answer.

But it doesn't remove TNN who can help stall until you get more equipment or another TNN. Just wondering how much we care about Decay.

[Qweerios]

@DragoFireheart,

Not especially. Nemesis is merely a means to an end and the way people derive pleasure out of magic is subjective.

Decay is akin to any other piece of removal and the only blowouts are when you desperately need Jitte charges or a Batterskull to gain you some life. Just like most removal, this deck is designed to care very little about it. Losing an equipment is generally a trade in your favor anyways because you got that piece of equipment for free in the first place.

By the tone of your post you seem to be a bit flustered by Nemesis in general and attribute its degeneracy to the players that play this card. The card is powerful and legal. If this fact somehow makes you enjoy Magic less, the game remains Magic nonetheless.

[DragoFireheart]

Decay is akin to any other piece of removal and the only blowouts are when you desperately need Jitte charges or a Batterskull to gain you some life. Just like most removal, this deck is designed to care very little about it. Losing an equipment is generally a trade in your favor anyways because you got that piece of equipment for free in the first place.

True, but a Squire is not impressive. :laugh:

I consider it a roughly even trade, but I was curios about the impact of losing equipment for your TNNs. I know pre-TNN it felt sorta bad to have your jitte blown up after fetching it with SFM.





By the tone of your post you seem to be a bit flustered by Nemesis in general and attribute its degeneracy to the players that play this card. The card is powerful and legal. If this fact somehow makes you enjoy Magic less, the game remains Magic nonetheless.

I'm more frustrated about not having any. Waiting for WotC to make up its mind.

[HSCK]

What does the DCI have to make up its mind about?

[DragoFireheart]

What does the DCI have to make up its mind about?

Whether to not ban it and force me to spend 30+ on a single or to ban it and likely give me a 50%+ discount for table-top trolling/Vintage TNN deck.

A Fish that can chump most of MUDs creatures in Vintage is pretty cool.

[HSCK]

The echo chamber of The Source is the reason you're not getting TNN...I guess you can do that.

[DragoFireheart]

The echo chamber of The Source is the reason you're not getting TNN...I guess you can do that.

I'd rather meta-game honestly. If it's not good enough to ban, it's weak enough to fall prey to something. The trick is figuring out what's the Achilles Heel of the meta before everyone else catches on.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I personally can't wait for alternative art. This art is lame. I like zack's show and tell art but this lacks in focal point and lighting.

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[DragoFireheart]

I personally can't wait for alternative art. This art is lame. I like zack's show and tell art but this lacks in focal point and lighting.

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Sounds like the Tarmogoyf syndrome: good card, bad art.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, it's better than op goyf art, but still nothing special.

I want to talk about Jace and his current lull in the only format it's legal and played in. If it is in fact no good these days, does it belong in the sideboard for the heavy control matchup? What should take its place if in fact it is unnecessary? Is liliana a good card for us? I see several lists running multiple Verdict's in the main. Is this to combat faster TNNs in a mirror/UWR Delver? Is it working? Lots more to come, but let's start with this.

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[Arsenal]

I've been thinking of going down to 2 Jace main and up my Verdict count to 2 main (currently 1 main, 1 sideboard). But Jace is really good in all the games they don't draw TNN whereas Verdict is obviously better in the games they do. It's a tough call, as that's one more dead card in the combo matchups too. I'll do some testing, but I suspect that 2 maindeck Verdict may be too much; running 4 StP, 3 Snapcaster maindeck. Might just cut a StP for the Verdict, ugh, don't know.

[DragoFireheart]

I've been thinking of going down to 2 Jace main and up my Verdict count to 2 main (currently 1 main, 1 sideboard). But Jace is really good in all the games they don't draw TNN whereas Verdict is obviously better in the games they do. It's a tough call, as that's one more dead card in the combo matchups too. I'll do some testing, but I suspect that 2 maindeck Verdict may be too much; running 4 StP, 3 Snapcaster maindeck. Might just cut a StP for the Verdict, ugh, don't know.

2 Jace / 2 Verdict is probably the right call. You really don't want to be sitting pretty against an opposing TNN. Have more Jace and TNN in the side if you want: pitch your verdict to FOW if they are useless in your current matchup. Because you lack enough ways to interact with TNN pre-board, Jace will almost certainly be DOA if the opponent has TNN. I think counting on them to NOT have TNN or not draw into him is a bad idea atm. Unless you see a lot of Storm combo I wouldn't worry too much about it.

@Secretly.a.bee: If we want black, then we're Deathblade. I personally prefer the U/W version of True Blade because DnT is also on the rise and Wasteland is nasty when they draw multiplies. Basics are important in ensuring you can cast those Verdicts and Jaces.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

2 Jace / 2 Verdict is probably the right call.

@Secretly.a.bee: If we want black, then we're Deathblade. I personally prefer the U/W version of True Blade because DnT is also on the rise and Wasteland is nasty when they draw multiplies. Basics are important in ensuring you can cast those Verdicts and Jaces.

I agree with most of what you said here until you go and say that black means DeathBlade. That's incorrect. It means Esperblade. GREEN is what makes it DeathBlade. You can argue with that all you want but that is my concensus after playing it for almost as long as esperblade. Esperblade is also a control deck and DeathBlade is a midrange. I have a small black splash for discard, but I also run 5 basics (2 plains, 2 island, 1 swamp). I play against Wasteland 1 out of every 2 decks I play against on average and thus far haven't had a problem with my current lineup. Black gives me access to information via discard and post-board I have more options sideboard than just plain white blue does and if I need to I can board out black. I'm not sure when I would ever do that but it's there.

I'm already at (have been for about 2 weeks) 2 jace, I took the 3rd one out for an Elspeth and haven't looked back. I don't know if this will be better, but I won't be able to tell if I don't test it.

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[Arsenal]

It isn't just Wasteland though, it's having pull out a basic Swamp turn 1 while your discard still matters, then having to fetch a basic Plains turn 2 for SFM, then on turn 3 you fetch Island, which leaves you unable to cast TNN, Counterspell (if necessary), etc.

UW can just fetch basic Islands and Plains and not have to worry about not having UU or WW (Veridct) on the critical turns it's needed.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see your points and opinions, I just don't agree so far. I play often against DnT and I do just fine.

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[lordofthepit]

I switched to Esper Trueblade as my primary deck about a month ago, and it's been running extremely smoothly. Team America is the one deck that has given me problems, mostly because of Liliana wrecking my board and stripping me of my removal, so I'm wondering if I'm "doing it wrong". True-Name Nemesis has dramatically improved my matchup against the field, but compared to Lingering Souls (which it replaced), it is a huge liability against Liliana.

My maindeck runs 11 creatures, including 4 flash creatures (Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Venser), which I find to be the best answer against Liliana. Ideally, I'd be able to stick a Batterskull to reach the long game, or land a Jace, but I only run two, which makes it hard to land against a tempo deck that also runs Hymn. I have 4 Force, 2 Counterspell, and 3 discard spells in the main.

In my sideboard, I like boarding in an extra Venser, a Path to Exile, a Supreme Verdict, and two copies of Rest in Peace. I've experimented with boarding out all the countermagic, particularly on the play, keeping all the discard in to deal with cards like Krosan Grip; I've also tried boarding out all the discard, leaving all the countermagic in, with the intention of stopping their bombs, but this is quite weak against Thoughtseize/Hymn into Liliana. I've also tried boarding out both discard and countermagic and upping the threat count with Meddling Mages, which are primarily there as a 2/2 body (since it doesn't really help much in terms of disruption) to better pressure Liliana.

I'm not having much success with this though. I find that my best games come when I can stick a quick Batterskull without being wrecked by discard/Grip, or if I can play a Jace against an empty board. Do you guys have any advice on how to approach this matchup?

[HSCK]

I run both in Esper, 3 TNN and 2 Lingering Souls as Souls covers a lot of TNN's weaknesses.

[rancOr_]

I run both in Esper, 3 TNN and 2 Lingering Souls as Souls covers a lot of TNN's weaknesses.
What did you cut to make room for both? I run 2TNN 1 L Souls. Still have 2pierce,2ponder,1counterspell as I dont want to dilute the combo mu

[Juice11]

Has anybody tried out the back to basics list that Joe Bernal top 8'd with? It looks interesting with all the tri color delver decks and lands variants running around, I think it's a pretty strong hate card in the format right now. I can't find a deck tech or any real information about it. If someone could help me out I would be very appreciative.

[Arsenal]

As I'm on straight UW, I've been running 2 Spell Snare and have been loving it. I may even consider cutting my 1-of Counterspell and upping my Snare count to 3, it's just that good right now in the meta. The only matchup I really dislike it in is Sneak & Show, but it hits major, relevant targets in SFM + TNN decks and Reanimator, which are major meta players right now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Indeed, my counter - suite is 4 FoW, 1 Counterspell, 1 pierce, 1 snare. I love it. I've been debating going to 2 snare but my meta is weird and I need to be able to counter trinisphere and other non current legacy decks often. I'm on esperblade.

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[UnsungHero]

Been playing this deck a lot recently.
Recently went 2-2 at a weekly event. Meh.

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True Name Nemesis
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Board
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Virtures Ruin

And here is what I played against, In a not very detailed match report.

Match 1: Nic Fit/Explorer Pod/EDH deck in legacy
Game 1: No idea what im playing against. End up getting True Name out, however a Thragtusk comes out of nowhere and does work with other big derpy stuff.
Game 2: He fills up the board with creatures, I eventually draw Humility, but it is ripped out of my hand by Cabal Therapy and got smashed by Thragtusk again.
0-2

Match 2: Sneak & Show
Game 1: Emrakul comes out with his noodle like arms and kills me. Not much to say about this one.
Game 2: Show and Tell revealing Humility is pretty solid. Oh and Karakas was there too. GG.
Game 3: Game comes down to him needing to draw a land to be able to cast Sneak Attack. But a well timed clique with a Feast and Famine beatdown ensures Tentacruel and Grizzlebees dont show up.
2-1

Match 3: RUG Delver
Game 1: Get killed by a turn 1 delver. Delver didn't get to go farming either.
Game 2: EE @ 1 + Thoughtseize revealing that he has no counters led me to land True Name and bring the beats.
Game 3: A very well timed clique from his board grabbing the rest in peace lead to the Goyf beat down.
1-2

Match 4: Grixis Delver (Young Pyromancer stuff)
Game 1: Batterskull & True Name Bring the Beats
Game 2: Turn 1 delver goes farming. And then Zealous Persecution laughs in the face of all the creatures in his deck. Batterskull brings the beats.
2-0

So far I like this list.
Spell Snares are the flex slot.
Might go back to Spell Pierce instead of Snare.
Virtues Ruin is in the board because there is quite a bit of Death and Taxes in my meta.
I would Really would like to squeeze in another Counterspell and a Diabolic Edict.
I also had Sword of Fire and Ice in the prior to this,but I really like having Feast and Famine more.
Jace has been pretty underwhelming. It might have been the matches I played against though.

[Arsenal]

I think since you have access to 1cc discard, running Spell Pierce over Spell Snare is reasonable. Spell Snare is really there to stop SFM (and other 2cc creatures/spells, but mainly SFM right now). As UW doesn't have discard, I need to actually stop SFM from ever happening whereas Esperblade can let SFM resolve if they want, then just 1cc snatch the tutored Equipment.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Esper Players: What do your sideboards look like? What are your problem matchups? I'd like to go into the matchup analyses much more in depth than I can find to simply read about online. We don't have a lot posted in this thread about esper in games 2 and 3.

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[GreenShorty]

Hey all.

I'm an UWR delver player currently, but I've started considering to play straight UW stoneblade, as my local meta punishes greedy manabases a lot.

That said, I'd like to hear opinions on a list I've put up. I'm not really sure if it plays smooth (didn't have the opportunity to test yet), but it looks like the mana base is pretty resilient and even allows for cute shenanigans like back to basics (loved that recent list that used 3 b2b maindeck, but opted not to include it yet).

So, what do you think?

Thanks in advance!

Land (23)

1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
1x Riptide Laboratory
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Tundra

Artifact (4)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares

Creature (13)
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Sorcery (1)
1x Ponder
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Disenchant
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility
4x Meddling Mage
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Vendilion Clique

[Arsenal]

I'd suggest cutting Engineered Explosives from your list as you won't be able to EE for more than 2, which greatly reduces it's effectiveness in a TNN meta. You're also running a lot of 3 mana spells (4 Snapcaster, 4 TNN, 1 Clique). You may want to consider cutting 1 Snapcaster and maybe 1 TNN (although running 4 TNN in a 3 Equipment deck is reasonable). You look soft to opposing TNNs/bad board states, so 1-2 maindeck Supreme Verdict in UW Blade Control isn't unheard of. If you don't want a maindeck sweeper like Verdict, consider a 1-of Detention Sphere in place of 1 Snapcaster or 1 TNN.

This is what I'm currently running:

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Meddling Mage

[GreenShorty]

Thanks a lot for your insights.

My initial deck had 2 verdicts main, however I increased the number of creatures and decided to cut it. Thinking about it, I believe you're right and maybe a "restart button" would be nice. Makes riptide laboratory better, also.

I'm removing 1 snapcaster and 1 engineered explosives and adding 2 supreme verdict main. Good points on why EE is bad.

Thanks again.

[HardBrain]

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Detention Sphere

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Disenchant

Im thinking sth near to the this list. spell snare have to be test in this meta but i think they are very usefull (SFM, CB, Goyf, Thalia, Library, HTT, Spirit of the Labityrt). i take some more + from riptide, m talking about Venser.

Any comments for first post in UWBlade....first exp in this deck hehe;) dont be cruel;)

[Arsenal]

Again, why EE in a two-color deck? EE does nothing for us if we're only running Blue and White. Cut it asap and replace with a Verdict.

[HardBrain]

Again, why EE in a two-color deck? EE does nothing for us if we're only running Blue and White. Cut it asap and replace with a Verdict.

ok, i admit. but it win with flipped delve, miracle tokens, TES tokens, mangoose, goyf, confidants, all DT stuff...i have split feelings.
...secondly, this is one and only comment about my decklist?

[Arsenal]

ok, i admit. but it win with flipped delve, miracle tokens, TES tokens, mangoose, goyf, confidants, all DT stuff...i have split feelings.
...secondly, this is one and only comment about my decklist?

Verdict hits all those cards + more. Again, EE stopping at 2 is really bad in a meta dominated TNN (3cc).

[HardBrain]

Verdict hits all those cards + more. Again, EE stopping at 2 is really bad in a meta dominated TNN (3cc).

ok, so if i have 1 slot, tell me that may be 1 Crucible of Worlds id good and -2Mishra +2 Wasteland? //? or just add Sth 1x ?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Crucible isn't good. What is Sth?

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[HardBrain]

Crucible isn't good. What is Sth?

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ok i look once again at decklist and i see 61/15 so i just cut EE. (STH is shortcut of something/sth else sth to do sth wrong...)

So rest of my 75 looks fine? and SB too?

[Arsenal]

ok i look once again at decklist and i see 61/15 so i just cut EE. (STH is shortcut of something/sth else sth to do sth wrong...)

So rest of my 75 looks fine? and SB too?

Only 6 fetches will make your Brainstorms and Jaces worse. Consider cutting 1 Island and 1 Plains for 2 Polluted Delta. I'd never run less than 8 in a deck with Brainstorm, and I personally run 9 due to having Jaces too.

[DragoFireheart]

True name is here to stay for now.

[HSCK]

Was there any serious doubt it wouldn't be?

[DragoFireheart]

Was there any serious doubt it wouldn't be?

Yes, but that doesn't matter anymore.

Has anyone had any success running CounterTop in the side for combo matches?

[kingtk3]

I was wondering on the merits of running mishra's factory or wasteland in the UW version. I'd say that wasteland feels more controllish since it gives you a way to interact with problematic lands your opponent may play (or simply cut him off a colour in some cases): why should I play mishra's instead?

[matunos]

I was wondering on the merits of running mishra's factory or wasteland in the UW version. I'd say that wasteland feels more controllish since it gives you a way to interact with problematic lands your opponent may play (or simply cut him off a colour in some cases): why should I play mishra's instead?

Factories are good with and against Supreme Verdict and other sorcery-speed sweepers. It also synergizes well with Sword of Feast and Famine. They offer some utility getting mana in the early game, and then give you dudes to swing with in the late game.

I'd take them over Wastelands, if I were forced to choose.

Edit: Can also animate to deflect edicts, and are immune from Abrupt Decay.

[Arsenal]

Factories are good with and against Supreme Verdict and other sorcery-speed sweepers. It also synergizes well with Sword of Feast and Famine. They offer some utility getting mana in the early game, and then give you dudes to swing with in the late game.

I'd take them over Wastelands, if I were forced to choose.

Edit: Can also animate to deflect edicts, and are immune from Abrupt Decay.

+1. This is exactly how I've been using my Factories. Many of my opponents, even the ones who run Wasteland, have commented at how difficult it is for them to deal with Factory, especially in multiples, while also having to deal with SFM-TNN and also Jace, sometimes all at the same time.

[Malakai]

Yay, factory, now your deck has something removal is good against!

[Arsenal]

Yay, factory, now your deck has something removal is good against!

I mean, they can't have it all at all times. If they're Bolting my Factory, that may suck depending on the situation (if I'm land light, if I needed Factory to block that 4/5 Goyf, etc), but it's guaranteed 1 less Bolt for my Jace or to my dome. Factory is pretty good. I certainly underestimated him when I switched from Vidi's GP Denver list to SCG Dallas' #1 list, but after playing dozens and dozens of game with UW Stoneblade, Factory makes a lot of sense. Certainly better than any other option people have tried (Riptide Laboratory, Tower of the Magistrate, Glacial Fortress, Wasteland, etc).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that if you do play factories it should only be in the uw version, and it should include some number of Elspeth.

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[Arsenal]

I'm fairly certain we were discussing Factory in the context of straight UW Blade, not UWx Blade. If there was any confusion, let me state that I believe that Factory should only be played in straight UW as UWb doesn't have the manabase to support it.

RE: Elspeth... I'd prolly have to cut a Clique or Jace to make room. I love Clique, especially with A+B combo and Equipments-in-hand. Nothing like being able to Clique in response to a SFM activation, although Elspeth-ing a TNN/any dude seems fairly boss too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It is pretty good, and in the control mirror (specifically miracles) Elspeth is basically the best card that can resolve. It's often better than jace.

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[DragoFireheart]

It is pretty good, and in the control mirror (specifically miracles) Elspeth is basically the best card that can resolve. It's often better than jace.

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I hear flying rogues with flaming ice swords are pretty nasty.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

In an environment without Terminus you are correct. What flying Rogue are you referring to? Also, resolving a threat can be difficult against miracles, let alone 2 (creature+equipment). In this way Elspeth is by far the better threat in that it's very difficult for them to do anything about once resolved, it creates threats and also pumps plus gives evasion all on its own.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

So how do you peeps board against elves?

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[HardBrain]

ok, this is my current 75' after some playtest. cut TNN, Venser, add some more countermagic(1cspell) an sweep (+1verdict) and add more fetches to 8. Elspeth works so damn good in this deck and Factories are insane. Im thinking to add 1 elspeth #2 and plaz on 61 cards, its not a problem with full toolboxed deck i think. how it looks for you guys:)?

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Supreme Verdict

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Detention Sphere

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Disenchant

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I deeply dislike and disapprove of 3 maindeck Verdict in a meta such as the current one, along with not running a single nemesis. I see no reason to run that many md sweeps and also not run the best equipment carrier in the game. What on earth is going on?

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[danyul]

In an environment without Terminus you are correct. What flying Rogue are you referring to? Also, resolving a threat can be difficult against miracles, let alone 2 (creature+equipment). In this way Elspeth is by far the better threat in that it's very difficult for them to do anything about once resolved, it creates threats and also pumps plus gives evasion all on its own.

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He is referring to TNN pumped by Elspeth. TNN is a rogue. Elspeth gives flying


So how do you peeps board against elves?

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You should bring in Supreme Verdicts. As many as you have.


I deeply dislike and disapprove of 3 maindeck Verdict in a meta such as the current one, along with not running a single nemesis. I see no reason to run that many md sweeps and also not run the best equipment carrier in the game. What on earth is going on?

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His list is similar to this one - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62701.

It aims to solve the TNN problem by blowing up the board as many times as possible. Why would you overload on MD sweepers and still run TNN? That makes no sense when the whole point of running 3x Verdict is to *beat* TNN.

You strike me as an odd fellow. I like you.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I get that's what he was referring to. I was simply astounded that anyone believes that they will be able to resolve 3 powerful threats against the premier control deck of the current meta.

What about Zealous Persecution? Does that help much or is Verdict better (specific to the elves matchup)?

I guess my post was unclear. I didn't mean run md 3 Verdict and also TNN, but rather fewer Verdict and then some number of Nemeses.

I am an odd fellow. Also, I like what you have done to assist in the bettering of elves.

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[danyul]

ZP is a cute idea, and would be fairly effective, but for whatever reason I don't see many people playing it right now. Verdict is just more flexible and can be used in other matchups (+being blue doesn't hurt). It can hit Progenitus as well as Deathrites and Nettle Sentinels. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but if an Elves player has a bunch of X/2s on the board after a ZP, then their Natural Orders are still live draws if they are on the Progenitus plan.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is Grafdiggers Cage an acceptable choice for shutting down the tutoring capabilities of the pointy-ears (I run 1)? I run 2x ZP for the D&T/elves matchup. It's improbable that you are able to cast a Supreme Verdict in time against D&T through wasteland, port and Thalia.

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