[DTB] Blade Control

[DragoFireheart]

I have concerns about this deck. It doesn't look like a deck that can handle the meta that is full of combo decks. Namely, Storm and Reanimator. Storm looks like it's too fast and Reanimator seems to run too much disruption. Thoughts on fighting those decks?

Oh, and just a thought: Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar?

[dahcmai]

I had Basilisk Collar in my early lists. I pulled it since it sucked on everything but the Lavamancer. Not horrid on a Mystic or clique, but far from good. if you end up using Hawks again, it's fairly decent all of a sudden though. Getting kills from multiple hawks for free was always funny.

[Frid]

Storm combo is an easy matchup unless you keep a hand full of dead cards, at least for my list (defeated an ANT deck in semifinals with 5 and 4 cards hands in game 1 and 2 respectively), and reanimator post board should be also easy (4 red blasts, 2 relic, 2 surgical).
Combo is not the problem for this deck. Fast swarm decks with much removal like aggresive versions of zoo are, and even aggresive versions of bant with many creatures and 4 zenith. Those are the pairings one should care about when playing this.

[DragoFireheart]

What about Mirran Crusader? It has protection from green, which lets it chump Goyfs, Knights, and even kitties all day long. Throw a sword on it and it can even race a Progenitus. It has issues sadly, like dying to Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer while also having double W in it's casting cost. Thoughts?

[vercadium]

What about Mirran Crusader? It has protection from green, which lets it chump Goyfs, Knights, and even kitties all day long. Throw a sword on it and it can even race a Progenitus. It has issues sadly, like dying to Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer while also having double W in it's casting cost. Thoughts?

I don't think that there's any problem with the card, but what would you cut to fit it in? Everything else just seems so much more important.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think that there's any problem with the card, but what would you cut to fit it in? Everything else just seems so much more important.

Maybe cut the Vedalken Shackles? It's slow and can't grab bit creatures right off the bat.

[bradstone]

What about Mirran Crusader? It has protection from green, which lets it chump Goyfs, Knights, and even kitties all day long. Throw a sword on it and it can even race a Progenitus. It has issues sadly, like dying to Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer while also having double W in it's casting cost. Thoughts?

I've tried Mirran Crusader time and time again and his casting cost has always been an issue for me. Almost anytime I rip him I just simply dont have WW. Hes an amazing beater though, and if red is going to be specifically for sideboard I could see people squeezing him in the deck. I think I'd rather find ways to abuse snapcaster personally though ;)

[DragoFireheart]

Alright, next question:

Will Daze see play in this deck? It's a means to help protect our SFM cast on turn 2. Or will Daze hinder us too much?

[Lemnear]

Then you cast SFM and pass the turn your oppenents has either 2 or 3 mana available. Bolt, Chaining Lightning, StP, PtE blank daze. SFM is not tarmogoyf to which your oppentent responds with a bigger threat himself so you can daze it and gain tempo. It's unlikely anybody wants to race SFM->Skull with a "bigger creature"

[klaus]

Hey guys,
this is the list I'm currently testing. It feels very powerful, yet some things 'mI not completely sold on. I'm aware of the alternatives but don't seem to be able to judge the best choices for large tournaments (--> GP Amsterdam), which is why I'm asking you for crits.
Thanks it advance!


UWR Stoneblade

4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island (see SB)
3 Mutavault
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
[-22-]
(Very happy with the mana base)

4 Spellstutter Sprite ---------------------- debatable choice, but right now I love'em
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster
1 Grim Lavamancer ----------------------- might appear random, but it's basically spot removal #8 that can carry equipment - I'm concidering -1 Bolt, + 1 Lavamancer - but Bolts are much better at handling Planeswalkers.

2 Opt ----------------------------Still not sure about Opt. With Sprites and Snappers I like keeping my mana open though (also revelant if only "bluffed"), plus those 2 make up for land #23 and give more flexibility beyond that

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor ------------------------ I did play a full set but found myself boarding out 1-2 way too often (against fast aggro/combo/mana denial decks) to justify 4.
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt -------------------------------- I used to run Shackles but with Snapper more spot removal just seems better
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare ---------------------------------- the correct number with Snapper and Sprites imo

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice ------------------------ it's a meta choice, obv., but what Sword would you run at 200+ ppl events and why?


SB:
1 Umezawa's Jitte ---------------------- pretty happy with that sb choice.
2 Path to Exile ------------------------- with 13 removal spells postboard, Firespouts just seem overkill

2 Surgical Extraction

1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge ------------------------ not sure if those two legitimize the mini green splash
1 Krosan Grip
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Trinket Mage -------------------------- mini toolbox (still testing that set up, sometimes I feel that versatility<speed though)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt ------------------------ Relics just seem like bad idea with Lavamncer and Snapper,
---

Closing thoughts:
--> Peacekeeper was a house in the Misstep days, but I feel he's lost some of his power since then. --> hot or not?
--> I've tested Riptide Lab, and used its ability 2x/80 games, which disappointed me. I used Karakas more often and would definitely favor the latter, but with a 3 color mana base plus Mutavaults I can't see including more colorless/white mana sources would be beneficial.

[ivanpei]

I'm not a fan of sprites as snapcasters have taken over it's slots. So without sprites, what are the best colourless lands/karakas? I think it's a fight between mishra's factory, moorland haunt and karakas.

I was running 4 factories and they're great with soff. You can bash with an equipped factory out of nowhere and untap all your lands. They always have to play around that when it's on the table. Just picked up a moorland haunt, so I'll give it a try. I think 1 is the max I'd run, since we don't have that many creatures.

Factories seem best because they are even better in multiples.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not a fan of sprites as snapcasters have taken over it's slots. So without sprites, what are the best colourless lands/karakas? I think it's a fight between mishra's factory, moorland haunt and karakas.

I was running 4 factories and they're great with soff. You can bash with an equipped factory out of nowhere and untap all your lands. They always have to play around that when it's on the table. Just picked up a moorland haunt, so I'll give it a try. I think 1 is the max I'd run, since we don't have that many creatures.

Factories seem best because they are even better in multiples.

- Factories also help pay mana for equipping swords / batterskull stuff.

@ Moorland Haunt: I'm not sure how I feel about this card. Sure, you make flying dudes, but you gotta have dead creatures first. STP removes some of the dudes you could make. I'd run Faerie Conclave over those since they at least make blue mana and give you a flying dude without having to wait for a guy to die.

Oh, and if we go UWB, we can do Snapcaster Mage + Unearth. It's a fun way to bring back SFM that got nuked. Or Vendilion. Or another Snappy to flashback another spell.

[Frid]

Snapcaster mage will become a staple for this archetipe as a 3 or 4 of. I'm pretty sure about it.
Not just because of its ability, but good creatures with flash are nuts in thse kind of decks.

[Q 221]

I ran Fnid's basic list at the LGS this week. Pretty small turnout (6), but it was a decent introduction to how the deck plays. Went 2-1 despite some very swingy luck, so not a bad initial outing.

// Lands
6 [RAV] Island
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [RAV] Plains
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [RAV] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MPR] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I was short one Volcanic, but figured I'd be able to get red when I needed it pretty easily. The Rainforest was just a "dammit, don't have another Strand" choice, as I figured it was going to be pretty rare that I went for the singleton Plains. The list was short a Clique (replaced by 4th Snapcaster) and a Tarn and Mesa (replaced by Rainforests), until about 5 minutes before the tournament started, when I got a good trade in.

R1: Kris with BUGStill.

G1: Had to mull a no-lander, kept a pretty solid hand. Fetched T1 for a Tundra. He Wasted. Fetched T2. He wasted again. D'oh. I had him on either Team America or Merfolk, so fetching aggressively to dodge Stifles from TA wasn't the worst plan, but not getting basics was pretty dumb, especially since this was G1 and fetching Island Plains probably would have satisfied all my mana needs. I don't draw lands, he eventually Jaces me out. At least I saw enough of his deck to make it clear that he was playing BUGStill with Loam, Jace, Deed, and Standstill. He had a wastelock later in the game, but it was probably overkill. I pretty much deserved to lose this game for bad fetching.

Sideboarding: -4 Swords, -2 Shackles, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Relic of Progenitus. The REBs were obvious, and I figured if I could keep him off Loam, the Factories would look pretty weak compared to my value creatures and Batterskull. BUGStill generally only runs 4 Factory as creatures, so it seemed like the Swords and Shackles would be pretty narrow.

G2: Had to mull a no-lander (again), at least he had to mull too. Kept a pretty solid hand, dropped an early Relic and started playing out basics. Early counterwar for a Standstill, which he won, and after he dropped a Factory, I had to break it pretty fast. Unfortunately, my mana development stalled, and I was left trying to deal with a Mishra's Factory chipping away my life total. I stuck a Mystic for Batterskull, but he dropped Innocent Blood. Eventually I just had to start playing threats or I was going to be dead. Dropped a Jace with no counter backup, he Counterspelled. Couple turns later, tried to hardcast the Batterskull. It stuck, but he EOT Cunning Wished for a Grip and killed it. I don't get relevant threats, and die to Mishra beats. I forgot to pop my Relic for a chance at an extra card, but I don't think there was much in my deck that would have saved me anyway. This would have been a great game for Shackles or Sword, but I feel the cards I boarded in were more relevant, and this game was really lost when I was forced to walk my threats into removal.


Round 2: Will with Countertop Stoneblade

G1: I mull a no-lander (AGAIN), and am left with a solid 6 that has lands and 3 Stoneforge Mystic. I go ahead and run one out on T2, he has a Swords. I drop the next one, he Forces. I drop the third, it resolves, but he has the Swords. I eventually drop a Snapcaster for something relevant, and equip the Sword of Body and Mind I got with the third Stoneforge. He can't find an answer, he does kill the Snapcaster the next turn, but I already have a wolf, and the Sword hits a few more times. He kills it, but I still have wolves and drop a Batterskull, and chip away the rest of his life. Interesting sidenote: the milling of SoBaM was actually relevant here. On his last turn, he Intuitioned, hoping for Snapcaster, but ended up not having enough in his deck, and going for a weird pile like Moat, Academy Ruins, Snapcaster. He didn't have the mana to cast the Moat I let him have (I didn't notice this, was just planning to counter and figured I'd give him the hardest thing to cast), and it was game.

Sideboarding: -2 Swords, -3 Counterspell, +3 Pyro, +2 EE. I already knew he was running Snapcaster, Stoneforge, and Counterbalance, so Snare seemed highly relevant here. Shackles seems pretty good here, since it can take equipped creatures or Cliques, or even yank summoning-sick Mystics. Force was definitely not the right choice to cut, since he has a ton of nasty things waiting around. I decided to cut Counterspell, thinking it was pretty bad in counterwars, and most of the stuff I wanted to get rid of was going to be handled by Pyro, Snare, or both. Swords seems bad here too, and EE is definitely relevant for Counterbalance, especially since you can play around with what you pay for X to dodge the likely Counterbalance flip.

G2: I open a hand with double Jace, lands, and a Force. Seems good. We play land-go for a while, I get a Pyro and a spare blue card for Force, and cast Jace T4. He Forces, I Force back. I brainstorm once and looking at my complete lack of Stoneforges (and his Counterbalance that might randomly screw me there), I decide to start Fatesealing. He drops a Clique, which I Pyro, and a turn later uniqueness-rules my Jace. No harm done, I drop my second one. He lets it stick. I Brainstorm once, drawing into a Mystic. He passes back, and I decide to start Fatesealing. I stop a second Clique, and get up to about 9 counters before he drops his own Jace. Thankfully, I have a Stoneforge, now I just need to get it to stick. I resolve it, going for Batterskull, but he has a Swords for it. I get a Snapcaster, and think about using it to flashback Pyro and take out his Counterbalance, but he drops a second Counterbalance that turn. I end up using Snapcaster to Snare his attempted Snapcaster on Brainstorm. Take my turn, draw Mystic, Mystic for Sword of Body and Mind, play Sword, equip Sword to Snapcaster, swing. It hits once before he drops EE for 3, but I still have Snapcaster, the wolf token, and Stoneforge. I start taking his life total down. His last turn, he Snapcasts for Swords, targeting my Germ token. He realizes he made a misplay by not waiting until my combat phase, since I just equip Batterskull to Stoneforge and swing, and he extends the hand when I do so.

I realize what Fnid's saying about Sword of Body and Mind now. In a deck with so few bodies, the ability to keep making guys to swing with is really useful in control matchups. A shame I never drew a Clique in these games, though: it would have been really nice to pressure him.


R3: Dan with WW/Equip

G1: I mull a no-lander (AGAIN!), into a 6-card all-lander. I decide I can afford to keep this, since I don't think his clock's too fast, and I can't risk a 5-card just being crap because it's 5 cards. I play some lands and fail to draw Stoneforge, Shackles, or a Brainstorm into either, while he plays little guys and suits them up. I finally find a Stoneforge into Batterskull, but my life total is negligible, and I can't get it into play fast enough. I die to Kor Duelist, Kemba, and Auriok Steelshaper.

Sideboarding: -4 Force of Will, -3 Spell Snare, -1 Counterspell, +3 Wrath of God, +3 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosives. All right, we want to play White Weenie? I can live with that. He played a decent number of guys, and didn't seem to be holding back at all, so I'm pretty sure I can just blow him out with Wrath. By the way, this is one of my favorite things about the deck: how post-SB it can just turn into aggro's worst nightmare.

G2: I keep a hand of Wrath, Wrath, Swords, and lands that can produce 2WW. Time to play like I'm a . He plays his standard aggressive opener, I play land-go, and on T4 blow away his 3-4 creatures. I draw into Stoneforge, play Stoneforge, play Vedalken Shackles. He drops Puresteel Paladin, attempts to equip a Loxodon Warhammer to it. Response, steal Puresteel. Smack him with the Puresteel, end of his turn drop a Batterskull (drawing a card off the Paladin, TECH!) Batterskull and Paladin beat down, he doesn't find another creature.

G3: I keep a hand that can do T2 Stoneforge. No counter backup, but I don't think he's really packing any removal, I certainly haven't seen any when it would have come in handy. I do that, he drops Lost Leonin (bet you had to look that up). Swings it at me with a Leonin Scimitar equipped, bringing me to 3 poison. Huh. Batterskull swings in. Leonin hits again. Batterskull batters a blocker. I decide I don't want to randomly lose to him having a proliferate card in there, and Swords the Leonin on the third swing. He topdecks Seal of Cleansing and blows up Batterskull, or tries to: I've got mana open to bounce him, and do so. He doesn't find creatures, a fact I help a few turns later with a Jace that starts Fatesealing him into Plains, and Batterskull takes it home.

We split R4, and I used my winnings to help grab that last Flooded Strand for the list. No more Misty Rainforests for this guy!


Deck seemed pretty solid, although I probably need more experience with it. I could do without the no-land 7 every Game 1 though. Don't think there's anything I'd change about the list, or the board, although the only things I really got any mileage out of in the board were the Pyroblasts (aside from the 2005-style blowout I got to do R3). It feels like it's a little light on kill conditions, but honestly against a lot of the decks that can deal with Jace/Batterskull you could probably just kill with Clique/Snapcaster beats.

[DragoFireheart]

Interesting to see someone already trying a Counterblade list. You can expect to see more of them as people get tired of storm/reanimator decks. Good news for me is that I have the cards to make either this deck or the CounterBlade deck.

But enough of that, what did you think of the Snappys Q 221?

[Waikiki]

Also played the same list as Hugo altho I replaced the karakas for a wizard bouncer.

(65) people
Round 1 vs No pro bant 2-0
Round 2 vs Doomsday 2-0
Round 3 vs Goblins 0-2 (gameloss for wrong decklist after board I would wreck that matchup )
Round 4 vs Team america 1-1 (was winning with jace online too bad time got called too soon :p)
Round 5 vs canadian thresh 2-0
Round 6 vs GBW rock 2-1
Round 7 vs gifts ungiven homebrew with knight of reliq etc. 2-1

Top 8 vs UWb stoneforge with elspeth, jace , discard snapcaster (1-2 very close games)

[dan who?]

Very nice Waikiki, was the wizard bouncer better in your opinion or are you not sure?

Also, Chris Van Meter split the finals of the scg 5k with this list

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41200

Not sure if I agree with all his card choices but over all everyone's lists are very similar. I guess this also goes to show all the haters writing off Stone-Blade post MM.

[ivanpei]

@ Q221, I think your stoneblade list needs some focus. For example, you are playing wastelands but no daze. Sobm and also counterspell. Preferably if you like wastelands, daze is a good card to go with it. Otherwise I find factories more useful. If you are playing hard counters like snare and cspell, you'd want soff because you can equip, bash, untap and have mana up for counters. Previously I prefer sobm as well but without missteps and dazes, having the extra mana is pretty important. Factory + soff is insane. It's a very dangerous threat that opponents have to play around.

[Dzra]

Everyone, including me, seems to be in love with Spell Snare (especially because of its applications with Tiago), but what do people think of plain old Counterspell? I have doubts, especially with Snapcaster Mage. Double Blue on turn two can be an issue, but triple Blue on turn 4 (for Tiago) is definitely a problem.

I'm trying to think of why Spell Pierce just isn't better in that slot. Spell Snare answers every threatening creature in the format with the exception of Tombstalker and Vendilion Clique. Having Counterspell for the hard counter is obviously better in the late game, but do we really have enough trouble in the late game to warrant running it over Spell Pierce? It's infinitely easier to leave one Blue up to protect a Mystic or Jace, etc. than two Blue.

[TkDodo]

Pretty funny how everyone dismissed Tiago saying "nah, its not so good, a 2/1 and an stp effect for 3 mana is mediocre at best, it won't have an impact on the format". The first results definitely show something different. I have been testing with Tiago the second he got spoiled, and even now without MM, I'm still impressed by him, if you build your deck around him. Of course we can't no longer cast SFM on turn 2 a lot like we used to, but that doesn't mean the deck is unplayable. Games will take longer and you have to play more controllish than go aggro on turn 2, but its still worth it.
So, here is the list I've been testing for the last couple of weeks:

UWr BladeControl


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

Sb:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
2 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Meddling Mage


As you can see, a lot of cards which go well together with Tiago: the obvious BS and StoP, but also Snare, Bolt and Spell Pierce, which is very good, not only at protecting your SFM if you play him on turn 3, but also in fighting Storm combo, Jaces, NO, GSZ and the like. Spell Pierce also fights Aether Vial or SD.Top if you happen to be on the play in turn 1, which you can't do with Counterspell or Spell Snare. Right now, I can't see why nobody else is maindecking them.
Bolts are also very good against Zoo, can kill Jace and can be flashbacked. Surgical Extraction and REB are very strong cards to flashback, too. (The 1 divert I'm just testing IF Team America is being played a lot. It's just not good enough in other MU i guess).

Also, I think Wastelands are more important than Manlands. I don't want a full set though, since I'm not planning on mana-screwing my opponent. I rather want to selectively get rid of lands causing trouble for me, like Maze of Ith. I don't think its a good idea to fit Wastelands and Manlands in a 3 color deck (its fine for U/W though).
As you can see, I prefer Karakas over Riptide Lab.

The one counterspell might look random, but I essentially decided to take a 3/1 split with spell pierce rather than the 2/2. There isn't much I can't counter in the early game with either snare or pierce that will cause a lot of trouble, and against combo, spell pierce is good enough and easier to get online and easier to flashback. In the late game however, Counterspell is still amazing. Also, flashbacking it late is not a problem.

I might try - 1 Fire/Ice, +1 Bolt, but I don't want too many dead cards against combo decks in game 1. I actually played Ice more than I played fire, but that was mainly because I didn't face a lot of aggro.

[Waikiki]

Very nice Waikiki, was the wizard bouncer better in your opinion or are you not sure?


The land performed great winning me at least 2 games.

[DragoFireheart]

The land performed great winning me at least 2 games.

What crazy plays did it enable?

[Q 221]

Interesting to see someone already trying a Counterblade list. You can expect to see more of them as people get tired of storm/reanimator decks. Good news for me is that I have the cards to make either this deck or the CounterBlade deck.

But enough of that, what did you think of the Snappys Q 221?

They were pretty fantastic all day, being able to reuse counters, Swords, or what have you was pretty powerful, and I don't think there was ever a time I drew one and was unhappy to see it. I failed to draw Cliques in every game except G2 of round 3 (while I was already sitting with a pretty great field against an opponent in topdeck mode), so I can't really tell you which was stronger. They're amazing with Pyro out of the board, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Surgical Extraction. The 2/1 is pretty relevant, too: a lot of times he'd eat a Swords or trade with an opposing creature, so I'd usually get the full 2-for-1.


@ Q221, I think your stoneblade list needs some focus. For example, you are playing wastelands but no daze. Sobm and also counterspell. Preferably if you like wastelands, daze is a good card to go with it. Otherwise I find factories more useful. If you are playing hard counters like snare and cspell, you'd want soff because you can equip, bash, untap and have mana up for counters. Previously I prefer sobm as well but without missteps and dazes, having the extra mana is pretty important. Factory + soff is insane. It's a very dangerous threat that opponents have to play around.

I really don't think Daze is the right choice in this deck: it's awful with Snapcaster and the deck isn't particularly great at playing the tempo game.

Factory over Wasteland actually sounds decent though: the only time I remember using Wasteland effectively was to keep my Round 1 opponent off black in Game 2. I had been trying to come up with a way to run Factory anyway, but the high basic count is pretty important at keeping tempo decks down, in my opinion. I'll give it a shot.

I had the same reservations about Body and Mind over Feast and Famine when I first looked at the deck, but I've come to agree with Fnid that it's a stronger card. Being able to generate creatures for the deck to equip is pretty strong against both control and aggro, and I find that unless I'm dropping Jace or Batterskull, I usually always have the mana for the counters in hand. The deck does have a pretty large land base, so I'm usually not too worried about having counter mana up.


Everyone, including me, seems to be in love with Spell Snare (especially because of its applications with Tiago), but what do people think of plain old Counterspell? I have doubts, especially with Snapcaster Mage. Double Blue on turn two can be an issue, but triple Blue on turn 4 (for Tiago) is definitely a problem.

I'm trying to think of why Spell Pierce just isn't better in that slot. Spell Snare answers every threatening creature in the format with the exception of Tombstalker and Vendilion Clique. Having Counterspell for the hard counter is obviously better in the late game, but do we really have enough trouble in the late game to warrant running it over Spell Pierce? It's infinitely easier to leave one Blue up to protect a Mystic or Jace, etc. than two Blue.

I've been pretty happy with Counterspell. I haven't Snapcast it yet, just because most times I've had a Snapcaster there was a better answer in the yard, but I think my manabase could support it pretty well.

As for Pierce, I'd say Knight of the Reliquary is an important threat that Snare can't answer, and one I'd probably want to Counterspell pretty quick. In addition, just because Snare handles threats doesn't mean you don't want overlap on your answers: I can easily see times I'd want to Counterspell a Goyf or Stoneforge, just because I don't have a Snare or Snapcaster. Last point, Pierce isn't a hard counter, which can actually become relevant given that the deck isn't a particularly fast clock. Yes, most of the time they won't know to play around it, but if they suspect you have it in hand, them playing around Pierce doesn't give you the same kind of advantage Merfolk gets when people play around Daze.

[TkDodo]

I really don't think Daze is the right choice in this deck: it's awful with Snapcaster and the deck isn't particularly great at playing the tempo game.


I can only second this!



As for Pierce, I'd say Knight of the Reliquary is an important threat that Snare can't answer, and one I'd probably want to Counterspell pretty quick. In addition, just because Snare handles threats doesn't mean you don't want overlap on your answers: I can easily see times I'd want to Counterspell a Goyf or Stoneforge, just because I don't have a Snare or Snapcaster. Last point, Pierce isn't a hard counter, which can actually become relevant given that the deck isn't a particularly fast clock. Yes, most of the time they won't know to play around it, but if they suspect you have it in hand, them playing around Pierce doesn't give you the same kind of advantage Merfolk gets when people play around Daze.

I think its very hard to play around Spell Pierce. What do you want to do, not cast Jace for 2 more turns and just do nothing instead? If they start doing that you gain two sphere effects by just having them in your deck, which is superb!
KotR is important to get rid off, but StoP does a very good job at killing him. Also, if you have Wastelands and not just "wasted" them to randomly kill a dual, the utility lands they might get (Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith) look a lot less scary, so you probably have another turn to find an answer to him. If you feel he is a particular problem, why not play Submerge in the side.

Overlapping on answers isn't a problem. I'm fine with counterspelling a cmc2 spell if it is that important. You can do that with Spell Pierce too, like countering an early Sylvan Library or Hymn. Of course, the big argument against Pierce is like "what if he just plays that card on turn 4 and can pay for Pierce". In these spots, counterspell would be superior, which is why I suggest a split between them, but you can answer a lot of these situations with other counters you might have now because it's not turn two anymore, or with Snapcaster Mage re-buying a Spell Snare, or even double-piercing with Snapcaster Mage if you have 4 mana as well.

In the late game, Spell Pierce can still be good in a counter war, something along the line where he plays a threat, you force or spell snare, he counterspells or rebs or whatever and you pierce. Also, if people start playing Snapcaster Mage a lot, each instant/sorcery they flashback effectively cost 3+ mana, so they have a very hard time paying for Spell Pierce.

[Frid]

Flusterstorm may be a decent card for the sb against storm combo and works well with snapcaster mage. I'm trying a pair of them in the slot of one red blast (as I'm playing four) and another card. A split of 3 red blast and 2 flusterstorm seems sweet at first glance.

[Philipp2293]

Hi Frid, I'm strongly considering adding your list (or a close approximation of it) to my testing gauntlet, how do you usually side for the UWx Stoneforge/Snapcaster/Whatever mirror?

[Frid]

It depends on the build, but with my actual list if they're playing 10-12 creatures, as they use to, I board out 4 swords to plowshares for 4 red blasts, which seems logical as all their creatures are blue except for stoneforge. It may vary if they play more creatures, leaving one or two stp and taking out one force of will and/or one clique.
In the control mirrors the first turns are nearly always tied and in those scenarios the worst card you can have in hand is swords to plowshares. And of course you'll prefer always to counter the creatures and not just kill them, as they are all two for ones.
I leave in shackles, jaces and my own creatures to stabilize if necessary in the mid/late game, which is more than enough. In fact I have faced five mirrors in the four tournaments I've played with the deck (three with mental misstep and two without) and I am 5-0 in this particular matchup with 100% victories in post board games, so I'm pretty sure it's a solid boarding plan.

[Waikiki]

What crazy plays did it enable?

It made me add my graveyard to my hand.

@frid I think you are right about boarding. I was pretty unexperienced in the quarterfinal which believe cost me the game.

[Dzra]

What about Ancestral Visions? I'm still not sure about dropping those. For a pretty hard control deck like us, refilling our hand with answers seems almost essential. We shouldn't have a problem making it to turn 4-6 when it will pop.

As for the control mirror, assuming you are running Red, I'd think bringing in REB for Force would be better than siding out Swords.

I'm going to try adding in a miser Counterspell. Unless I cut Ancestral Vision, I don't have room for more. My current list is in my sig. I'll keep testing. ;D

(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Taigo it back.)

[Frid]

I seriously think sideboarding out force of wills is the biggest mistake one can make when playing a control deck. In general I have never boarded out more than one copy, and not very often.
Leave in swords and take force of will out and you'll whine when your opponent easily wins the counterwar for his jace and crushes you in card advantage while you sword his snapcasters and stoneforges that have already two for one'd you

[Q 221]

I think its very hard to play around Spell Pierce. What do you want to do, not cast Jace for 2 more turns and just do nothing instead? If they start doing that you gain two sphere effects by just having them in your deck, which is superb!


Sphere effects are great when an opponent is playing Storm or on a decent clock, but if we're talking control mirror here, it's probably going to be land-go for a while. When I was playing Stoneblade, my game 2 had maybe 1 spell cast before turn 4. It's really not inconceivable that they just wait until they have extra mana up, or don't draw their Jace/whatever until later in the game when they can easily pay the 2. This deck can go some long games against non-aggro. I can see the argument for playing it against combo, but I'm not sure this deck has such a huge difficulty with combo that we want extra slots in the board for it.



KotR is important to get rid off, but StoP does a very good job at killing him. Also, if you have Wastelands and not just "wasted" them to randomly kill a dual, the utility lands they might get (Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith) look a lot less scary, so you probably have another turn to find an answer to him. If you feel he is a particular problem, why not play Submerge in the side.


Yes, Swords kills Knight, but my point is more that Spell Pierce doesn't, which means if I'm swapping out Counterspells for Pierces there's one more relevant threat I have to Swords if he resolves. I'd rather just have more answers to Knight, as well as Clique, Stalker, Goyf, Pridemage, Snapcaster, and Mystic, all things that it would be quite beneficial to answer.



Overlapping on answers isn't a problem. I'm fine with counterspelling a cmc2 spell if it is that important. You can do that with Spell Pierce too, like countering an early Sylvan Library or Hymn. Of course, the big argument against Pierce is like "what if he just plays that card on turn 4 and can pay for Pierce". In these spots, counterspell would be superior, which is why I suggest a split between them, but you can answer a lot of these situations with other counters you might have now because it's not turn two anymore, or with Snapcaster Mage re-buying a Spell Snare, or even double-piercing with Snapcaster Mage if you have 4 mana as well.


I get what you're saying, but I'm much more concerned about "spells that are cast when I have UU open" than "noncreatures that are cast when I have U open before an opponent has 2 open". The argument that you can answer these threats with other counters isn't an argument for running Spell Pierce, it's an argument for running those other counters, which I'm doing anyway (and remember, if you're not running Counterspell, your list of counters for non-2cc stuff is Force of Will and maybe Pyro). The real question is "what does Spell Pierce hit that Counterspell doesn't that I'm really worried about", and I'm not sure there's anything on that list personally.



In the late game, Spell Pierce can still be good in a counter war, something along the line where he plays a threat, you force or spell snare, he counterspells or rebs or whatever and you pierce. Also, if people start playing Snapcaster Mage a lot, each instant/sorcery they flashback effectively cost 3+ mana, so they have a very hard time paying for Spell Pierce.

Counterspell is generally equally good in the late game, since the mana base usually has you with plenty of U lying around: you'll usually have an issue with the number of counters left in your hand before you start running low on mana. And if people start running Snapcaster more, I'd much rather just Counterspell the Snapcaster than let it resolve to start beating on me, then Pierce whatever they flashed back.

[Dzra]

I seriously think sideboarding out force of wills is the biggest mistake one can make when playing a control deck. In general I have never boarded out more than one copy, and not very often.
Leave in swords and take force of will out and you'll whine when your opponent easily wins the counterwar for his jace and crushes you in card advantage while you sword his snapcasters and stoneforges that have already two for one'd you

But REB can and does win counter wars... even more efficiently than FoW since you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself. The only downside being it won't counter removal like FoW can, but against Control, it'll be so back and forth that I'd think the loss of CA is more relevant than holding board presence for an extra turn or two. The control mirror amounts to "who runs out of answers first" and I think Force doesn't help you there.

Also, Counterspell is definitely better late game or against Control decks, everyone can agree there. I think Spell Pierce becomes relevant against fast aggro (Vial, Zoo, etc) or even midrange (Rock and TA). Being able to play a Mystic turn 3 and stopping a removal spell can be huge. If you're on the play, a Spell Pierce will stop Vial or Thoughtseize. Spell Pierce is great at stopping Hymn, Bitterblossom, and Vindicate. Counterspell is great, but I don't think it can always help you on the turns that you need the most help.

[DragoFireheart]

(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Taigo it back.)

- What the hell??

Verbal Warning for Spam. - Bardo

Edit:

- I really don't understand why you are even suggesting Mana Leak. Yes, you only need 1 blue but the issues of not having double blue in this sort of deck shouldn't come up that often.

[Q 221]

What about Ancestral Visions? I'm still not sure about dropping those. For a pretty hard control deck like us, refilling our hand with answers seems almost essential. We shouldn't have a problem making it to turn 4-6 when it will pop.


Honestly, I'm liking the "more value" card advantage plan a lot better than I'm liking raw draw. Visions is kind of nice, but it doesn't help you much when things are coming for your throat, it's not really guaranteed to draw you much of anything (I usually don't have problems finding things to put back off a Brainstorm), and it's not Snapcastable. If I could Snap it for free +3 out of nowhere, I bet it'd see some play, but at that point it just hits broken.




(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Tiago it back.)


Mana Leak is often going to be similar to a Counterspell, yes. But we have access to something that is always going to be similar to a Counterspell because it is one. Double Blue is rarely a real problem, and I'd rather risk the color requirements than risk randomly losing a control mirror (or the random combo deck with combo mana to spare) because they could pay for Leak. I have to respect the unorthodox idea though.


But REB can and does win counter wars... even more efficiently than FoW since you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself. The only downside being it won't counter removal like FoW can, but against Control, it'll be so back and forth that I'd think the loss of CA is more relevant than holding board presence for an extra turn or two. The control mirror amounts to "who runs out of answers first" and I think Force doesn't help you there.


Remember though, the argument's not REB vs. FoW, the argument's FoW versus Swords, REB's going to be in there regardless. Force is card disadvantage, but it's another answer that participates in counter wars and can stop opposing Jaces. I think it's stronger than Swords, which will at best probably take out a Factory or something.




Also, Counterspell is definitely better late game or against Control decks, everyone can agree there. I think Spell Pierce becomes relevant against fast aggro (Vial, Zoo, etc) or even midrange (Rock and TA). Being able to play a Mystic turn 3 and stopping a removal spell can be huge. If you're on the play, a Spell Pierce will stop Vial or Thoughtseize. Spell Pierce is great at stopping Hymn, Bitterblossom, and Vindicate. Counterspell is great, but I don't think it can always help you on the turns that you need the most help.

This seems reasonable, but I guess the issue is that I'm not convinced T3 Mystic (Pierce) versus T4 Mystic (Counterspell) will make a huge difference, especially since they can actually pay for the T3 removal if need be. As for the specific cards:
- I kind of like our matchup against Vial tribal lists already, especially postboard.
- Thoughtseize is pretty relevant, but as you said, it's only when you're on the play, which should hopefully be <50% of the time.
- Hymn and Bitterblossom are dealt with by Snares (and possibly Counterspell if you're on the play or it's not a T2).
- Vindicate's relevant, but I'm not sure where the play is where you have U but not UU open, they're at 3-4 mana, and they're Vindicating something you really need alive. I feel like I'm willing to risk that the number of situations where that will occur and I don't have Force is minimal.

There's no doubt that there are situations where Pierce will be stronger than Counterspell, but I feel like the situations where Counterspell will be stronger outweigh them. I like Pierce against combo and in a faster deck that controls lands better, but not here.

[Waikiki]

I lost both games due to him resolving a jace. Siding out fow wouldnt help me. I didnt see any REB and sword would just be a dead card. Siding out force against a control mirror is just wrong.

[TkDodo]

Sphere effects are great when an opponent is playing Storm or on a decent clock, but if we're talking control mirror here, it's probably going to be land-go for a while. When I was playing Stoneblade, my game 2 had maybe 1 spell cast before turn 4. It's really not inconceivable that they just wait until they have extra mana up, or don't draw their Jace/whatever until later in the game when they can easily pay the 2. This deck can go some long games against non-aggro.


I agree that in control mirrors, Counterspell is better than Spell Pierce, since they will not play a lot early (nor do we), especially if he plays Counterspells himself, where he will intentionally wait until he has 2 more mana open and thereby incidentially play around Spell Pierce as well. This, however, refers to "good" control players, but we have to be honest, there are a lot of "impatient" players who just can't wait to jam Jace on turn 4. The thing is, we have to take things like that into account when deciding what to play, and further, we do not only play control mirrors. We have to decide which card is better overall, in various matchups.



I can see the argument for playing it against combo, but I'm not sure this deck has such a huge difficulty with combo that we want extra slots in the board for it.


Just because we have 4 Fow, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Counterspell doesn't mean that we don't have difficulties against combo. It is tough no matter what. And Spell Pierce is a lot better here simply because it's only a turn earlier and because it's online a turn earlier when flashbacking it, which is very important.



Yes, Swords kills Knight, but my point is more that Spell Pierce doesn't, which means if I'm swapping out Counterspells for Pierces there's one more relevant threat I have to Swords if he resolves. I'd rather just have more answers to Knight, as well as Clique, Stalker, Goyf, Pridemage, Snapcaster, and Mystic, all things that it would be quite beneficial to answer.


I personally dislike countering creatures that can be easily handled with a removal effect, since the counters are much more valuable against things you cannot remove. Of course, CIP abilities hurt, and the fact that Counterspell can counter Cliques, Mystics and Snapcasters and Pierce can't is relevant.



I get what you're saying, but I'm much more concerned about "spells that are cast when I have UU open" than "noncreatures that are cast when I have U open before an opponent has 2 open". The argument that you can answer these threats with other counters isn't an argument for running Spell Pierce, it's an argument for running those other counters, which I'm doing anyway (and remember, if you're not running Counterspell, your list of counters for non-2cc stuff is Force of Will and maybe Pyro). The real question is "what does Spell Pierce hit that Counterspell doesn't that I'm really worried about", and I'm not sure there's anything on that list personally.


Every T1 play that isn't a creature, especially Aether Vial (although I believe that with Snapcaster Mage, we can almost ignore Vial and just remove their creatures over and over again, at least against Merfolk where most creatures don't have a CIP effect) and Sensei's Divining Top (maybe Entomb). I know that not having Counterspell leaves you vulnerable to spells with cmc > 2, and the main thing that comes to my mind is Vendilion Clique. However, you are pretty vulnerable to almost every T1 play.



Counterspell is generally equally good in the late game, since the mana base usually has you with plenty of U lying around: you'll usually have an issue with the number of counters left in your hand before you start running low on mana. And if people start running Snapcaster more, I'd much rather just Counterspell the Snapcaster than let it resolve to start beating on me, then Pierce whatever they flashed back.


True, optimally you just Snare the Snapcaster. But if I can't and they are about to flashback a relevant spell, I will take the option to pierce it. It's similar to stifling the CIP trigger of Stoneforge Mystic. Yes, the creature lives on and you've lost a card, so technically, you are down one card, but it's a pretty unimpressive creature if your opponent planned on flashbacking a REB to kill your Jace.

[Q 221]

I agree that in control mirrors, Counterspell is better than Spell Pierce, since they will not play a lot early (nor do we), especially if he plays Counterspells himself, where he will intentionally wait until he has 2 more mana open and thereby incidentially play around Spell Pierce as well. This, however, refers to "good" control players, but we have to be honest, there are a lot of "impatient" players who just can't wait to jam Jace on turn 4. The thing is, we have to take things like that into account when deciding what to play, and further, we do not only play control mirrors. We have to decide which card is better overall, in various matchups.


If I'm assuming my opponents aren't playing optimally, I'll just play Hive Mind and expect them to save their counters for Pacts. Yes, some people are going to be bad, but that's not something you want to count on for deck construction. I agree that not every game is a control mirror, but some of them are, and it looks like control is going to be a decent part of the new metagame, which we're going to have to take into account.




Just because we have 4 Fow, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Counterspell doesn't mean that we don't have difficulties against combo. It is tough no matter what. And Spell Pierce is a lot better here simply because it's only a turn earlier and because it's online a turn earlier when flashbacking it, which is very important.


Agreed, and I haven't tested the combo matchup as much as I'd like to. However, remember that not every combo deck goes balls to the wall against control, since a lot of those plays get blown out by a Force. If they slow-roll and play with counter protection, Counterspell can potentially be stronger. And I'm not convinced that the cost reduction of Spell Pierce is going to be relevant there often enough to make up for Pierce's other shortcomings.



I personally dislike countering creatures that can be easily handled with a removal effect, since the counters are much more valuable against things you cannot remove. Of course, CIP abilities hurt, and the fact that Counterspell can counter Cliques, Mystics and Snapcasters and Pierce can't is relevant.


I'm not particularly fond of countering creatures either, but if a Knight is on the stack and I don't have a Swords/Shackles, you better believe I'm going to counter it. Against something like Bant or Zoo, which the deck already has problems with, it's actually likely that most of the "must-counter" spells are going to be creatures.



Every T1 play that isn't a creature, especially Aether Vial (although I believe that with Snapcaster Mage, we can almost ignore Vial and just remove their creatures over and over again, at least against Merfolk where most creatures don't have a CIP effect) and Sensei's Divining Top (maybe Entomb). I know that not having Counterspell leaves you vulnerable to spells with cmc > 2, and the main thing that comes to my mind is Vendilion Clique. However, you are pretty vulnerable to almost every T1 play.


I agree with you that Vial is probably not a huge deal anymore, and I'm not really concerned about answering it. Our Merfolk strategy is less about countering them out (which was never a great idea against Merfolk anyway) and more about playing our own stuff that's good against them: SFM-->Batterskull, Shackles, Swords, and then Firespout, REB, and maybe Wrath postboard. Top is a good point, but I'm not convinced that alone is worth running Pierce for, and the only other T1 noncreature plays I see myself wanting to counter are stuff like Thoughtseize/Duress, which are nasty, but again, I'm OK with losing something to that and not having dead cards later. Entomb is bad too, but half the time against control Reanimator can just draw to 8 and pitch anyway, so being able to lock out an Entomb isn't going to do what we want it to do against them.



True, optimally you just Snare the Snapcaster. But if I can't and they are about to flashback a relevant spell, I will take the option to pierce it. It's similar to stifling the CIP trigger of Stoneforge Mystic. Yes, the creature lives on and you've lost a card, so technically, you are down one card, but it's a pretty unimpressive creature if your opponent planned on flashbacking a REB to kill your Jace.

Or optimally you Counterspell the Snapcaster, which you can do with Counterspell but not Pierce. And while I agree you definitely want to Pierce the REB if you can, that Snapcaster can actually be a decent threat to Jace depending on your board state, and the alternative just kills Snapcaster, since it's not the kind of creature that comes down early.

[TkDodo]

If I'm assuming my opponents aren't playing optimally, I'll just play Hive Mind and expect them to save their counters for Pacts. Yes, some people are going to be bad, but that's not something you want to count on for deck construction. I agree that not every game is a control mirror, but some of them are, and it looks like control is going to be a decent part of the new metagame, which we're going to have to take into account.

I think it's more like the philosophy of playing Standstill. The card is good, but not hard to play around and against correctly. The card is (was) so good because people play against it incorrectly a lot. If everybody knew the basics of playing against Standstill, the card wouldn't be played. Hive Mind is, incidentally, another good example. As long as people are saving their counters for Hive Mind and Show and Tell and were not countering the Intuitions, Hive Mind is fine. I'm not saying you have to expect your opponent to play badly, but you have to consider it.



Agreed, and I haven't tested the combo matchup as much as I'd like to. However, remember that not every combo deck goes balls to the wall against control, since a lot of those plays get blown out by a Force. If they slow-roll and play with counter protection, Counterspell can potentially be stronger. And I'm not convinced that the cost reduction of Spell Pierce is going to be relevant there often enough to make up for Pierce's other shortcomings.


Most combo decks except maybe Belcher have disruption in some form, either proactive (duress or chant) or reactive (Fow, Daze). I don't think that you can assume "oh, my opening hand has Fow, I am completely fine against combo". If so, you are assuming your opponent is playing badly ;)
Counterspelling a Reanimate on turn 2 or 3 and running it into Daze is just one of many examples where Spell Pierce is a lot better than Counterspell.



I'm not particularly fond of countering creatures either, but if a Knight is on the stack and I don't have a Swords/Shackles, you better believe I'm going to counter it. Against something like Bant or Zoo, which the deck already has problems with, it's actually likely that most of the "must-counter" spells are going to be creatures.


Agreed, except that a lot of these decks have a GSZ toolbox. Aggro decks definitely can't wait to play around Pierce like a control deck can (maybe can). If you play enough (6, maybe 7) removals and Snapcasters, you should be able to handle those creatures you can't counter.

We also can't ignore the fact that having UU open is going to be harder against aggro decks, where we, at some point, just have to play our SFM to get something going and survive their onslaught. Also, every deck has some amount of mana that doesn't produce U, and Wasteland is always an issue. Yes, we can (and mostly will) fetch for basics. But sometimes we just open with a dual in hand and have no choice. Or we open with Island, Wasteland, Plains. Or we have UU but want to (or have to) Brainstorm first. I've played with Counterspell a lot since I'm actually a big fan of hard counters, but Brainstorming into it and not being able to cast it becuase your mana looks something like Island, Island, Plains was annoying from time to time. I'm not saying it's a huge factor, but we have to consider it.

As a result of this discussion, I'm probably trying the 2/2 split for the next weeks. Maybe this is just an "I can't decide so I diversify it", but I think we have solid arguments for both sides.

[Bongo]

Assuming you are using a version similar to the one Chris van Meter piloted in the Legacy open - what cards do you board out

1. against Merfolk?
2. against Maverick?
3. against BUG or Team America?
4. against Storm?
5. against Reanimator?
6. against Zoo?

This may look easier than it actually is. For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

[DragoFireheart]

For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

- Boarding out Force of Wills against Merfolk isn't very surprising at all. The deck is fairly redundant: Merfolk, Counters, and Lands. The best way to fight merfolk is to not get into a counter war with them but to simply blow up all the fishes. FoW doesn't help do this and is a fairly dead card due to them running Aether Vial. UWr Blade Control decks can go nuts with SFM-BS, Blasts, Grims, etc.

[Frid]

I can see the point in boarding out one or even two copies of force of will when you board in like 7-8 cards as I do, but not all four. Cards like counterspell, vendilion clique and one or two jaces are usually worse. With force of will in the deck you can simply do stoneforge on turn 2, search up batterskull and win from there with free backup. I like easy victories, don't you?

[BantFTW]

Hi guys, I don't have any experience with this deck.
And I would like to ask what is the matchup against aggro?

ty

[RogueMTG]

I thought boarding out FoW vs Merfolk was common knowledge at this point? (as it was years ago when all the cool kids were playing Landstill :cool:)

Force is horrible against them. That match-up is a grind that is entirely about card advantage. Pitching something like a Brainstorm to FoW some random dork is how you lose games.

[rignes]

I would personally probably replace some or all of my FoW with REB/Pyroblast assuming a red splash against Merfolk.

[Frid]

Fow is not great against merfolk, but when you have worse cards like counterspell, clique, and extra copies of jace you want to take them out first. It's very simple. Don't imitate blindly whatever G.T. or whoever does or says, because whatever he does may have sense with HIS decklist and HIS sideboard,. When it's you who is playing just think it for yourself and do whatever has sense with YOUR list, not with someone's else.
And, of course, pros may be wrong sometimes, especially since very few of them play enough legacy to tell us whatever is right or not. I would trust much more an usual and competitive legacy player than any professional player when talking about legacy.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the advice! So candidates to board out against Merfolk are Jace, Vendilion, Counterspell and Force.

What about the other matchups I listed above?

[Dzra]

Assuming you are using a version similar to the one Chris van Meter piloted in the Legacy open - what cards do you board out

1. against Merfolk?
2. against Maverick?
3. against BUG or Team America?
4. against Storm?
5. against Reanimator?
6. against Zoo?

This may look easier than it actually is. For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

I've since changed my deck to almost vanMeter's list (other than the SB). Basically it's his list -Spellstutter, +Spell Pierce; -Mutavault, +Mishra's Factory; and -Repeal, +the 2nd Sword. My list is in my sig, if anyone is interested.

Right now, my SB is this:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
1 Academy Ruins
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Manriki-Gusari


1. against Merfolk?
-2 Counterspell, -2 Vendilion Clique, -2 Spell Snare, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God, +2 Meddling Mage

My reasoning is this: Unlike this match in previous incarnations, things tend to revolve around Stoneforge. If you get Stoneforge and it sticks, you will win. CA is no longer as important if you can stick a Batterskull. Merfolk has one removal spell they can use against us... Dismember. Therefore, FoW and Spell Pierce are good.

The second reason FoW is good seems like more common sense. If Aether Vial sticks, all of your other counters are dead. So... board out your extra counters first and keep the ones that could potentially be used to fight Dismember.

As for Oblivion Ring... I split my removal between that and Path so I can have an answer to a resolved Bitterblossom/Jace. Meddling Mage is something I'm trying, but basically the idea is that I run him out, name Dismember, and then land a Stoneforge and run over them completely unopposed. Might be too cute... but definitely worth a shot.

2. against Maverick?

Honestly, I haven't tested against this at all. The main things to consider here are... Do they run Aether Vial or not? Green Sun's Zenith or Stoneforge Mystic? Do they run Mangara of Corondor/Karakas? Life from the Loam? Etc...

This deck has a lot of variance and it will influence how we need to react. Removal is good. Counters are good, unless they have Vial, then it becomes tricky. Meddling Mage is almost definitely too cute here since they have access to Path in addition to Swords. Academy Ruins (and probably the second Batterskull) are good since they can help against artifact removal.

3. against BUG or Team America?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Wasteland, -X
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Batterskull, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I think this is pretty straight forward. Depending on their build, the -X would probably vary between a Counter or another Wasteland. I think graveyard hate against Snapcaster is too cute here.

4. against Storm?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Meddling Mage

Pretty straight forward.

5. against Reanimator?
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Surgical Extraction

I haven't tested much against Reanimator post-board. It's not really a bad MU for us. I'd probably just switch out Jaces for Surgicals and call it a day. Those Surgicals need to come in, the top of the curve looks like a good place to look for cuts. Meddling Mage doesn't have any obvious target.

6. against Zoo?

Here you have two choices... double up and push with a second Batterskull and Academy Ruins or board out the Mystic package and go straight control. It really depends a lot on whether they have Ancient Grudge or not. Krosan sucks, but we can get around that. I don't think it's possible to fight Qsasali Pridemages and Ancient Grudge though.

The best strategy is probably to board out your SFM package for Game 2 (maybe leave in the SoFF) and hopefully catch them off guard with dead artifact removal in hand. Game 3, you can board it back in if you can be sneaky about it, but hopefully you won Game 1 anyways.

More removal is good here. Path, Wraths, etc. Abuse Snapcaster enough and you should take it home. For slower Zoo versions, Elspeth is a real house.

[TkDodo]

5. against Reanimator?
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Surgical Extraction

I haven't tested much against Reanimator post-board. It's not really a bad MU for us. I'd probably just switch out Jaces for Surgicals and call it a day. Those Surgicals need to come in, the top of the curve looks like a good place to look for cuts. Meddling Mage doesn't have any obvious target.


I disagree. Against combo, you want your most dead cards to come out, and Jace isn't one of them. He is too slow against Gin, but can bounce every other non-shroud creature. Especially Iona comes to my mind. Most players will put Iona on white because of StoP, so you will be dead to 1 out (Karakas), since you can't cast your win-condition. In your list, I would board out 1 SFM and the two Swords, since multiple SFM suck against decks with no removal and drawing the swords naturally is bad, too. You are fine with 3 SFM and Batterskull only if the rest of your deck is basically counters, GY hate and Jaces.

/edit: I just realised your list doesn't even have Karakas, so your outs to a resolved Iona on white would be ... zero if you board out Jaces.

[Bongo]

First off, thanks for your well written post!


3. against BUG or Team America?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Wasteland, -X
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Batterskull, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I think this is pretty straight forward. Depending on their build, the -X would probably vary between a Counter or another Wasteland. I think graveyard hate against Snapcaster is too cute here.

Why are you boarding out Swords? Their threats are Goyf and Tombstalker (or Delver), so it's not like the removal is dead. On the other hand, Elspeth and Oblivion Ring cost a lot of mana, which is relevant because of Wasteland, Daze and Stifle.

[Syaoran]

Has anyone tried to use the counterbalance shell?

If no, why not?
If yes, how did it work? Why did it not work?

(since MM left, I think that counterbalance might be coming back, and was wondering if I could include it into stoneblade)

[Dzra]

Yeah, looking at it, I agree with keeping the Jaces in. I forgot about my outs to Iona. It's tough to board out against Reanimator. I dislike boarding out SoFI because it lets me race past a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, who is their number one go-to nowadays. I can definitely lose the SoFF, maybe a Mystic, and maybe a land since I don't have to worry about Wasteland.

Against BUG, Paths are better since they generally run no basics. I'm not really worried about them aggroing me out, so another answer to Jace (as well as creatures) in the form of Oblivion Ring seems right. A resolved Elspeth is pretty bad for them, but I could see not boarding it in depending on their creature suite.

Counterbalance is bad for the same reason it was bad before Mental Misstep. There are too many things for it to deal with and it just can't deal with them all. Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Vindicate, Tombstalker, Vendilion Clique... etc... etc... Snapcaster Mage outclasses Counterbalance all over the place.

[Q 221]

Has anyone tried to use the counterbalance shell?

If no, why not?
If yes, how did it work? Why did it not work?

(since MM left, I think that counterbalance might be coming back, and was wondering if I could include it into stoneblade)

I've considered trying to fit the package in (if for no other reason than because I wasn't a Legacy player at the time it was originally released, and have always really wanted to play it), and it seems like you end up trying to put too many packages in the deck, I can never find a list that runs it that I'm satisfied with. The list I played against last Sunday used Stoneforge, CB/Top, and Snapcaster, and he didn't seem too impressed with it. There's only so much space in the deck, and even without the CB package I always find myself struggling to get everything I want into the list. In addition, the format's spread out a bit more, as Dzra said: the threats you need to deal with are spread all over the CB curve, and it's tough to really get much out of the package. I'd much rather just use the versatile counters and removal available to us to deal with threats, and back it up with Snapcasters.

In other news, I played a quick match against Team Italia and Painter recently. TI seemed pretty good, although I dropped a postboard game when he got SFM into Batterskull, backed up with Mother of Runes. Hopefully Wraths out of the board will come in handy here, since their deck takes a while to start hitting hard.
Painter seemed pretty easy, dropped G2 when I kept a hand a bit overloaded with threats and light on answers, but Surgical targeting Painter usually just earns a concession, and between REB, Snare, Counterspell, Swords, and Snapcaster to get 'em all back, it's pretty easy to fight over their combo pieces, and take g1. I'm not sure these are matchups we're particularly worried about, but *shrug* some data's better than none.

[paK0]

So I see a lot of people are dropping Daze entirely.

I can see the point that this decks wants his landdrops, but is it really safe to drop a "free" counter against all the BUG and Reanimator?

For reference (I'm pretty happy with it):
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Island (2)
1 [IN] Plains (2)
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [NPH] Dismember
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [M10] Duress
SB: 2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [RAV] Swamp (2)

[DragoFireheart]

I saw one list try Delver of Secrets:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6918&iddeck=50179

Thoughts on using him in the deck? He's a clock and when he changes he flies.

[Q 221]

I saw one list try Delver of Secrets:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6918&iddeck=50179

Thoughts on using him in the deck? He's a clock and when he changes he flies.

Oh man, I really want this to work, for no other reason than I love Snapcaster and Delver and I really want them in the same deck.

I had been brainstorming something like this initially after we got the full Innistrad spoiler, but my major concern was that playing the tempo role isn't going to have enough impact on a lot of decks, and that applying pressure is going to be difficult. It has 13 creatures, and Stoneforge and Snapcaster can't really do much on their own against anything else on the board without equipment. In addition, Stoneforge and Snapcaster are both rather mana-intensive, so for a deck with a relatively light mana base, it might be tricky to conssitently get them going.

The question is really whether attacking the mana base with Stifles and Wastelands can disrupt other decks enough that you can safely drop SFM-Batterskull or go to lethal with a Clique, Delver, etc. It worked decently for Team America, but that deck also has a pretty bad Merfolk matchup in general, which might be something to avoid. Stoneforge into Batterskull is pretty solid against Merfolk, but I'm not sure it's necessarily enough. Team America also has more significant disruption in the form of Hymn, and much larger threats like Goyfs and Tombstalkers, which allow them to easily ride one card to victory.


So I see a lot of people are dropping Daze entirely.

I can see the point that this decks wants his landdrops, but is it really safe to drop a "free" counter against all the BUG and Reanimator?


I think Daze has been abandoned primarily because the deck can't necessarily drop a fast Stoneforge into Batterskull and end the game quickly anymore, with Misstep gone. Sometimes that's a viable strategy, but generally we've had to slow down a bit and start using him as a classic control finisher. When we're no longer applying fast pressure, it starts becoming very easy for other decks, even combo, to play around Daze, since the one turn they give us isn't actually costing them much: we draw one extra card, and in exchange they invalidate a counter in our hand. In a tempo list like the one Drago posted, it's obviously quite nice, but Snapcaster seems to be leading us more towards a classic control role now (one that's been working pretty well for me).

Also remember Daze is a dead card in Snapcaster's eyes 99% of the time, so if you're running it over something like Counterspell, you'll be making your Snapcasters less efficient.

[Dzra]

I've been having a lot of success with the list in my sig. I like Delver a lot, don't get me wrong, but I think his place is in a Thresh type deck. I also agree that Daze just isn't what we're trying to do. If you're worried about BUG, run some Spell Pierce.

[ivanpei]

I think jace is essential to this deck's success. We can't ride a quick batterskull up victory that easily anymore so the deck has to slow down and ride jace's power. 4 spell snare is also a must to replace misstep. The card is ridiculously useful in this format. With snaps, jace and clique being 3/4 drops, daze is pretty suboptimal. Delver doesn't really fit in this deck as mentioned above. For those cutting jace, don't because he is still as amazing as ever. I'm playing 4 copies, and will never drop him unless something equally broken is printed in the future. Also I'm playing a full set of snaps. The card is so gassy. I built me deck around Snaps and I haven't looked back. Here's my list:

4 Sfm
4 Snapcaster
2 Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Soff
4 JTMS
4 Fow
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Stp
2 Path

4 Factory
4 Tundra
8 Fetch
1 Plains
5 Island

IMO all these fancy lands like riptide/moorland haunt are too slow. Factory is simple, fat and effective. In multiples, it gets even better. I like how my 1 factory can stop a snapcaster from poking me to death or how it trades with a kitty.

[Krondo9]

Has anyone had any trouble against decks with enchantments/artifacts? im thinking of adding disenchants to the board, possibly removing a SOFI and an elspeth.

[Dzra]

Has anyone had any trouble against decks with enchantments/artifacts? im thinking of adding disenchants to the board, possibly removing a SOFI and an elspeth.

I use Oblivion Ring; although it's slower, it can also hit planeswalkers and creatures.

[Eternal Donkey]

Is anyone still running Vedalken Shackles in their list? I really like the idea of having it in an agro heavy environment. It is definitely better then running a 4th JtMS if you're expecting a lot of Merfolk/Zoo/TA.

[Frid]

I am, as I've been used to. Shackles steals loads of first games. But I do run 4 jaces as well.

[Dzra]

I'm not a fan of Shackles for two reasons.

1. Because we are a Stoneforge deck, they will board in Artifact hate if they can. Giving them better value for their already good SB cards seems bad.

2. It doesn't play with Taigo.

[Frid]

1. And? Do you sb out the stoneforge package just because they may bring in some grips/grudges?

2. And? Do you stop playing jace or clique just because they don't interact with the mage?

Reasonable arguments would be for example that it's a slow card sometimes even against creature decks, that it's simply bad against some tiers (RUG order, the new canadian ********, landstill style decks...) and even dead against others (all kinds of combo decks). But those two arguments that you give don't seem very solid.
I like shackles because they're an autowin against many decks in the first game, and even post board in some cases (the mirror match for example). I'm playing one lonely copy yet though.

[dan who?]

I'm playing one lonely copy yet though.

Sounds like you switched your list up a little. Care you share your changes and reasons? I'm definitely interested in hearing what you switched the 2nd shackles out for.

[BantFTW]

This was my decklist:


2 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Repeal
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Riptide Laboratory
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Spell Pierce
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus

I was so happy with it, but now at the last moment, I don't have a Jace and 2 riptide laboratory.
What should I do now? Go and play Delvers for more threat or not? Or some more removal :O?
Or maybe an equipment more mainboard like sofi for playing against aggro?

This is what I want:
- wog
- sofi
- delver
- spell pierce

So waht do you guys think to do because tomorrow is the Grand Prix so...

[Krondo9]

what do you guys think of riptide lab? I was running 2 but had color mana issues so I dropped to one. It just seems too slow to actually be that great. I also dont think you should run less than 4 jace in the main. that card is way too good.

[Dzra]

1. And? Do you sb out the stoneforge package just because they may bring in some grips/grudges?

Yes, I think this is a great strategy for game two against Green decks that seem likely to bring in between 3-5 anti-artifact cards. Luckily, against most Green decks, you want more room to bring in removal. There's your room.


2. And? Do you stop playing jace or clique just because they don't interact with the mage?

What I mean is that since Shackles is more or less a "removal" spell in the sense that it's trying to slow down the onslaught of creatures, I'd rather be playing a removal spell that can interact with Snapcaster. It is much harder for them to anticipate Snapcaster's combat tricks whereas if they walked into a trap with Shackles it could only be because they misplayed.

Of course, the speed is an issue as well. I'd rather turn 1 Swords, Path, Spell Snare/Pierce, etc and turn 3 flash it back than play turn 3 Shackles (which most likely won't be able to steal a Goyf and might never take a Tombstalker).

[Purgatory]

what do you guys think of riptide lab? I was running 2 but had color mana issues so I dropped to one. It just seems too slow to actually be that great.

I've run one in my UWr list and in testing it has been activated 0 times, however, it's been wasted to hell and back pretty much every game I've played it, so I've saved coloured mana instead :). I know it's a bad reason to run it (obv), but I can only imagine using it in control matches where the games go on long, whereas most of my testing has been against aggro, combo and aggro-control.

[Ajsmirnov]

Hi everyone,

I just finished playing at GP Amsterdam with WUr Stoneblade, day 1 record was 7-2, day 2 was 3-2-2.

The biggest mistake was to play 2 WoG maindeck, I saw 0 Mavericks 0 Zoo. The best card was Elspeth(should be 1 maindeck). Also 0 Reptide Laboratory - my tests showed it is bad in UWr, and a sideboard Red elemental blasts are SO good, you know.

List:

2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendillion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ponder
SB
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant

[yutang]

Two of the top performing (Top 32) lists at GP Amsterdam for UW Stoneforge had MD Cunning Wishes with a Wishboard. What are your thoughts on this? Should this be the new direction which this deck should go?

Or should it go for a red splash for REB (which is quite good) but was not represented in the GP Top 32?

[Ajsmirnov]

I think GP was not the best place to play Stoneblade. Lots of decks, ignoring Batterskull.

However, Cunning Wishes looks great. It's cool to have access to Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction or additional remouval(Path to Exile) game 1. Especially with Snapcaster, to use card twice. I would also add Pyroblast and Disenchant.

[TkDodo]

I don't know about Cunning Wish. It seems pretty slow on paper, and you sacrifice some SB slots. I played in Amsterdam as well with a red splash with the approximate list I posted some pages ago, dropping at 5-3, beating SplinterTwin 2-0, UB Merfok 2-0, Elves 2-0, Steel Stompy 2-1, Merfolk 2-1 and loosing to Manaless Dredge 1-2, UW Merfolk 1-2 and BUG 1-2. First big tournament for me though, so I think I did ok.
Sometimes I found it quite hard to actually have all the mana you need at times when you want to cast Snapcaster, Cliques and Jaces while having to play around Daze, getting wasted or just needing the mana to vial a Baneslayer in. So I don't know if its really effective to invest 4 mana for a Path to Exile from the board or something similar. Sure, if you really need that path, its good, but against Storm, it's probably too slow to get Flusterstorm. It's basically a Snapcaster for +1 mana without the body, but able to fetch hate in G1. Againt Reanimator or Dredge, you probably need the hate before you can cast Cunning Wish though.

[Polish Tamales]

Do you guys find that S:Fire & Ice is better than Jitte in the new meta with Snapcasters acting as chump blockers? It just seems like I rarely board in Jitte with the option of picking the Sword.

[Ajsmirnov]

I think I'll never stop playing Jitte. It wins tons of games. And it kills opposing Jitte - very important for a deck with lots of X/1 creatuers.

[DragoFireheart]

Questions:

-How good is BladeControl against random.meta and random jank decks?

-What's the optimal number of Snappys? I've seen varying lists with 3 or 4 snappys.

- Would this deck be better served with 3/4 Jace like many lists have or having a split of 2 Jace and 1/2 Elspeth?

[Lemnear]

Questions:

-How good is BladeControl against random.meta and random jank decks?

-What's the optimal number of Snappys? I've seen varying lists with 3 or 4 snappys.

- Would this deck be better served with 3/4 Jace like many lists have or having a split of 2 Jace and 1/2 Elspeth?

1) as already mentioned above: It depends on how good SFM->Batterskull is. In a field with Stifle and burn it isn't hot. I replaced white entitely with Red for bolts and lavamancers (sb blasts and tricks). Heavy Red makes SCM Even more awesome.

2) you have to realize that SCM is a dead draw unless you have 3 or more lands ... Having them early in hand is not desireable unless you want to random chumpblock.

3) in a deck with already 10 or more creatures and equip, do you want a Card that creates more creatures or one that clears the Way for them/denial opponents topdeck removal?

[Purgatory]

3) in a deck with already 10 or more creatures and equip, do you want a Card that creates more creatures or one that clears the Way for them/denial opponents topdeck removal?

My two cents: I play 3 Jace and 1 Elspeth and Elspeth just wins games on her own at times, and a lot quicker than Jace at that. If the board state is even, they can both have a huge impact, and in a vacuum I'd pick Jace any day - however, Elspeth can win games, provide chump blockers, pump your dudes and add evasion (how awesome isn't a Germ token with flying?). She is also great in control matches, where it is pretty possible that a Jace will be PW-rule'd away before he can finish the game properly.

Which one is better is largely contextual, and it depends a lot on the match-up and the board state. I believe that one Elspeth should be somewhere in the 75.

[rignes]

I've been thinking...

Would Two Elspeths be to much do you think? I'm considering goign with 3 Jace TMS and 1 Elspeth with an extra Elspeth in the sideboard.

EDIT: WOOPS. Looks like this was just asked a couple posts back. I'll leave it here just to show that others are floating the idea. ;)

[Ajsmirnov]

3 Jace, 1 Elspeth + 1 Elspeth sb sounds good to me also.

[Frid]

I prefer the fourth jace over one elspeth all day long. The impact both provide on the board isn't even comparable.
Jace is also easier to cast, as it doesn't force you to fetch double white.

[BantFTW]

I prefer a list with:

2 Jace
1 elspeth
3 snapcaster is enough, you don't need more of them.
4 spell snares (it counters really much atm)
also some spell pierces main deck to, like 2.

The founding that I've got with this decks that if it has like a choke or something on the opposite, you can't get away from it exept if you play repeal mainboard...

What do you guys think of this?

[chags]

I prefer the fourth jace over one elspeth all day long. The impact both provide on the board isn't even comparable.
Jace is also easier to cast, as it doesn't force you to fetch double white.

The question is will you still feel that way as rug grows in popularity?

[BantFTW]

If that's the question, then I would play wastelands and stifles mainboard.
Btw I didn't had a karakas or riptide laboratory @Gp Amsterdam with UW Blade.
And I played wastelands instead. They are better. this deck only needs 3 mana and lategame/midgame it needs 4 mana for a plainswalker.

So the wastelands were quite good during the GP, especially against decks like reanimator/combo.
So maybe that's another idea too?

[Frid]

The question is will you still feel that way as rug grows in popularity?

To be honest that's not my bigger problem atm. It's just another trendy deck and NO rug never worried me too much, which should be significantly harder to beat than these new versions due to the 10/10.
Jace is overpowered, elspeth isn't. I like overpowered cards. In any case I also play 4 red blasts in my sb, so in this aspect we are tied at least.

[Dzra]

Against RUG, I usually go full on control as many times it's too hard to fight their Ancient Grudges. Boarding SFM back in game 3 isn't a bad idea though.

-4 Stoneforge
-1 Batterskull
-1 SoFI
-1 SoFF

+2 PtE
+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 Wrath of God
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[DragoFireheart]

Against RUG, I usually go full on control as many times it's too hard to fight their Ancient Grudges. Boarding SFM back in game 3 isn't a bad idea though.

-4 Stoneforge
-1 Batterskull
-1 SoFI
-1 SoFF

+2 PtE
+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 Wrath of God
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

-Three equipment cards?

[Dzra]

Yeah, I like having the bigger toolbox game 1. Usually I'll side out the less relevant Sword in the following games. With a full set of Factories, a naturally drawn Sword
isn't too bad.

[DragoFireheart]

I've seen a lot of Bant Blade lists. What are your thoughts on those list? (Which typically run KotR, Nobles in addition to SCM and SFM)

Are the UW Blade lists better with the more stable manabase or are the Bant Blade lists better with more accel and the bigger beater (KotR)?

[CaBaaL]

Against maverick is it good to remove mystic and equipments after SB? They run qasalis maybe manriki-gusari, and krosan's grips

[Ajsmirnov]

I usually remove Blades and SFM against Maverick and add Wrath and Elspeth. Play like UW Landstill.

As for Bant Blade, looks like UW has a better match against UGR thx to more stable manabase. Waste your Tropical, Bolt your Hierarch, you know...

[Syaoran]

I'm considering a list with Moat either sideboard or mainboard (that or ghostly) to shore up aggro MUs.

If anyone has a good explanation why I should stop wasting my time testing these, I'd be delighted to hear them- otherwise, I'm going to start testing.

[Rekk]

I'm considering a list with Moat either sideboard or mainboard (that or ghostly) to shore up aggro MUs.

If anyone has a good explanation why I should stop wasting my time testing these, I'd be delighted to hear them- otherwise, I'm going to start testing.

ghostly in the side board can be very strong if you have a heavy merfolk/goblins metagame. the cards is also hilarious against dredge, and i could imagine it's strong against one drop zoo but i'm not sure. tell me how your testing goes.

[Rekk]

I'm considering a list with Moat either sideboard or mainboard (that or ghostly) to shore up aggro MUs.

If anyone has a good explanation why I should stop wasting my time testing these, I'd be delighted to hear them- otherwise, I'm going to start testing.

ghostly in the side board can be very strong if you have a heavy merfolk/goblins metagame. the cards is also hilarious against dredge, and i could imagine it's strong against one drop zoo but i'm not sure. tell me how your testing goes.

[Frid]

In my opinion wrath of god is strictly better in this kind of deck, as it serves different purposes: The cost is the same, and: It isn't a permanent, so it cleans the board right away and can't be gripped or whatever post sb, it has synergy with snapcaster mage, and it also kills the remaining flying creatures: Clique, Mindcensor and the like.
If you want to play moat you should try a different version of caw, for example the one by Mon, goblin chief:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6348&iddeck=45997

(Obviously you have to switch the missteps for some counters and snares)
The cantrip and creature engine of that kind of deck lets you abuse from moat much more than typical stoneforge builds. You can try it out if you like it.

[rchinnock]

what do people think of the following decklist? It is basically the same as the U/W lists, but splashes black for Dark Confidant and a pair of vindicates (wanted more removal but didn't want it to only hit creatures. It seemed too narrow to be adding paths when we already have swords). Dark confidant is the main reason for the splash. He simply wins so many games on his own, often functioning as another threat, in addition to Stoneforge, that reads: "kill me or lose the game." He's good against mostly everything except extremely fast decks against which losing life is a major problem, and sometimes he is simply a blowout, especially with Jace. Finally, he is another equipment-carrier, which is nice. Also, I wanted to play 2 more ponders so as to have more snapcaster targets, b/c they are good with dark confidant, and also because its seems like the deck functions a whole lot better whenever you have a first turn cantrip. Also, not playing spellstutter sprite means that you can run mishra's factories, which are obviously better than mutavault. And finally, the deck doesn't run wasteland partially so that it can run less lands, and also simply because factory seems better a lot of the time, since you can use it to protect Jace and to equip things to.

4 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
4 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
3 jace, the mindsculptor
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine

4 flooded strand
4 marsh flats
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains
1 island
4 mishra's factory

[DragoFireheart]

My only gripe with the 3-color versions is that they are weak to RUG Tempo decks. I question whether we gain a lot by going three colors at the expense of a weaker mana base.

[rchinnock]

Yeah, this is definitely a concern. Especially with more people playing stifle. However, this version also plays more cantrips than the UW one, which can help shore up shaky mana draws. And the extra draw from Dark Confidant, when he lives, can help with that as well. And as to what we gain, I think it is essentially this: 4 more cards (bob) that are capable of carrying the deck and nearly winning the game on their own, which most cards, while providing utility in the form of removal, counterspells, etc, cannot do.

[DragoFireheart]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Esperblade essentially what you are talking about? UWb Blade Control?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7118&iddeck=51710

[rchinnock]

Is there a separate page for esper-blade? Its only 6 non-land cards different... And functions very similarly.

[DragoFireheart]

Is there a separate page for esper-blade? Its only 6 non-land cards different... And functions very similarly.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21453-UWb-Esperblade

At this point the deck looks like ours but only with a splash of black and Bob.

[ivanpei]

I'm not really sold on the Esper versions. Bob and vindicate seem better for the control mirror but weaker against more disruptive decks. Having a weaker manabase and a soft target (Bob dies to Grims, Bolts, Dismember AND Spell Snare) seems a bad choice vs RUG Tempo.

UW Blade never really has Gas Problems, especially after the printing of Snapcaster. Bobs and Vindicates also mean less Flashbackable-Spells being played in the deck, making Snapcaster weaker. UW Blade has been the steadiest deck I've played in a long time. It has very few weak Matchups and is pretty much even across the board against most decks. The strength of Colourless lands like Mishra's and Riptide cannot be underestimated. I might even risk saying Factory + SOFF combo or Snapcaster + Riptide ->>> Black splash.

UWB will make the deck slightly better in the control mirror and will give it more options against combo. However, it weakens the overall durability of the deck and makes it easier to be picked apart by RUG Tempo, Old School Team America and Disruptive decks like Aggro Loam.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not really sold on the Esper versions. Bob and vindicate seem better for the control mirror but weaker against more disruptive decks. Having a weaker manabase and a soft target (Bob dies to Grims, Bolts, Dismember AND Spell Snare) seems a bad choice vs RUG Tempo.

UW Blade never really has Gas Problems, especially after the printing of Snapcaster. Bobs and Vindicates also mean less Flashbackable-Spells being played in the deck, making Snapcaster weaker. UW Blade has been the steadiest deck I've played in a long time. It has very few weak Matchups and is pretty much even across the board against most decks. The strength of Colourless lands like Mishra's and Riptide cannot be underestimated. I might even risk saying Factory + SOFF combo or Snapcaster + Riptide ->>> Black splash.

UWB will make the deck slightly better in the control mirror and will give it more options against combo. However, it weakens the overall durability of the deck and makes it easier to be picked apart by RUG Tempo, Old School Team America and Disruptive decks like Aggro Loam.

- I pretty much agree with this. The draw of going black for Bob is pretty quickly ruined when Lightning Bolt and Spell Snare are very commonly played. I don't think we can afford to go 3+ colors in this RUG Tempo environment.

[rchinnock]

I agree with some of this. However, vindicate as an answer to counterbalance and opposing Jaces shouldn't be under-estimated. Also, you get more SB options with black. You don't actually have less snapcaster targets in the esper version i wrote down, you have more. you don't have the two copies of counterspell, but you get two vindicates and two ponders. Also, you still have colorless lands - you have 4 factories. You don't even really need the black alot of the time, since the most you ever need is one and yodu only have 6 black cards. This means you aren't as likely to get mana screwed as often as you would if you were playing a more black-heavy version with hymns, thoughtsiezes, scullers, etc. Often what happens is you lead with a fetch, and then on the second turn after you play your second land, you crack the fetch and use it to get a scrubland or undergruond sea, cast your only black spell (bob), and then even if you get wasted you are fine because you have no more black spells. Finally, the thing about bob is that, even though he is killed easily, he offers redundancy as far as need-to-kill cards go. What I like to do personally is play either him or stoneforge more aggressively than you would if you only had one and really wanted it to come down and live, and then when they kill it, play your other guy. So, for ex, play stoneforge, get your batterskull, let him die, and then play bob. Then you have your batterskull for later and they used their removal spell that would have killed your bob. Or do the reverse. You do lose riptide in the list I put forward, but you could always play one, adding another land to the deck, which might be a good idea anyways to make you a little more resistant to land destruction.

[DragoFireheart]

Invisible Stalker

What are your thoughts on him?

- Can't be killed by removal which means we can always have a creature to equip.

- A IS with a sword that has Protection from green and chump KoTR for quite awhile.

- Since he's unblockable, he makes it easy to connect a sword with. Pretty nasty with a Sword of Fire and Ice.

- He's blue so he helps maintain our blue count.

[kues]

Are you kidding, right?

[rchinnock]

I am not actually advocating doing this - but I would play squadron hawk any day before playing invisible stalker. Both, however, have a similar problem - they are simply too small and do not have enough of an impact on any part of the game except in conjunction with equipment, and even then they are too slow and weak.

[DragoFireheart]

Are you kidding, right?

Hey, there were some complaints that the creatures died a little too easily. He's weak as hell but he carries equipment amazingly well.

[dan who?]

Hey, there were some complaints that the creatures died a little too easily. He's weak as hell but he carries equipment amazingly well.

I haven't felt the need for any additional creatures. I think people need to remember that you have to play this deck like a control deck. With MM gone you can't tap out on turn 2 for sfm and expect her to live. I generally wait it out and build up my hand so I can protect her before dropping her. Between all the instants, snapcasters, jace, etc. I generally don't feel the need to cast sfm right away anyways.

[rchinnock]

note in regards to the fact that you in the UW versions you can't tap out on turn two aggressively for SFM (at least not very effectively): In the esper version you can, b/c you have another must-kill two-drop (bob) that you can play right after when SFM dies. or you can play bob first, and then, after he dies, play SFM with more security. This allows that version to play more like a fish deck, with more aggressive, must-kill creatures that you can play early and then hopefully ride to victory when one resolves. Just an idea (not everything of course), which might be useful when it comes to comparing the relative worth of the two builds.

[Frid]

On sunday I won a 40 man event with the following list:


// Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
7 [B] Island

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [ARC] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [B] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives


I still find UW versions with red splash for blasts in the sb strictly better, but I was a bit bored of playing the same decklist for the last three months and decided to give a shot to a personal straight UW version this time. You can find my report here (warning, it's in spanish):

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6333

Wrath of god is a house, and the best card by far in the sb. Every time I played it was an autowin. Spell pierce is clearly inferior to red blasts although a bit more versatile, but for a big event I would play red for sure. The rest is more or less standard: Graveyard hate and a bit of extra removal for the (not so) hard matchups: decks with a high density of creatures. And after boarding you just destroy them.
UWx Stoneforge is probably one of the best control decks I've played in legacy, with or without mental misstep in the format the deck keeps crushing. I love it.

[dan who?]

Nice job Frid! I have to say I as well prefer UWr Blade especially with all the RUG currently and still play the same list you sent me a while ago to great success. I'll be going to a legacy tournament this weekend with it so I may post my results as well.

As for your above list, having you been enjoying riptide lab more? Would you want to find room for it in your UWr version? I know we've discussed this before but I always enjoy playing with the most up to date lists.

Other than that I find your lists solid and agree that Wrath has always been good for me as well. I like the added Firespouts in UWr to help against fast aggro but I'm thinking of switching them for some paths since I've been seeing more big creatures than like merfolk or zoo lately. I do love the option to play explosives for 3, it saved me against some Kotrs before when I couldn't find any swords.

[Frid]

I don't think riptide lab has place in UWr along with wastelands, karakas and all the basics. I don't want to weaken the manabase that much. But with UW there is no harm in playing it. It's an ok card, usually you just give it one use because it's wasteland target number one when you're playing 8 basics like me, and I have to keep it in hand until I have a snapcaster in play to at least use it once. But it takes the slot of one land, which is nice.
Explosives are solid even with just 2 colors. It's cheap removal against fast aggro and the only real way to kill a resolved troublesome artifact or enchantment like counterbalance.
I never liked path at all, but playing UW there's nothing better.

[Dzra]

I'm thinking of dropping Wastelands entirely. This would let me drop to 23 lands and play more basics. In general, I feel very mana hungry as is and I'm rarely worried about keeping my opponents off their mana. Wastelands are pretty much only useful against things like Maze of Ith and manlands.

[kues]

I'm thinking of dropping Wastelands entirely. This would let me drop to 23 lands and play more basics. In general, I feel very mana hungry as is and I'm rarely worried about keeping my opponents off their mana. Wastelands are pretty much only useful against things like Maze of Ith and manlands.

The reason to play wasteland is not to keep your opponents mana-off, is, as you said, destroy opposing Mazes, Burnwillows, Manlands, Magistrates,...
Although, it gives you the chance to win several games against 18lands.deck if they keep a 1-land-hand.

[Dzra]

The reason to play wasteland is not to keep your opponents mana-off, is, as you said, destroy opposing Mazes, Burnwillows, Manlands, Magistrates,...
Although, it gives you the chance to win several games against 18lands.deck if they keep a 1-land-hand.

But do you think Wasteland is worth the extra instability to our mana? I'm not very worried about Maze of Ith. The decks that run it are generally KotR decks and Lands. Lands will be able to keep a Maze up if they want, so I generally go the Jace route anyways. KotR decks can be tough, but I think my strategy there is to out-removal them, not try to race them through Maze. Tower of the Magistrate is pretty cool tech, but not much used anymore.

Grove of Burnwillows would be my main concern. I haven't played much against it, I'm supposing that Surgicals might be needed to fight it, but I'm not sure.

After doing quite a bit of testing against the RUG tempo deck, I've found that more basics helps a lot. We are very mana hungry, we like :u::u: and early :w:, there are a lot of decks running around that can actually utilize a coherent tempo/LD plan, but right now, in this deck, Wasteland seems to have fringe usage at best.

I could be wrong, I kind of wish I was, since I have a set of foils. :P ... but I'm beginning to feel like the optimal version of the deck doesn't want Wasteland.

[Frid]

1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
7 [B] Island

These are the lands I played last sunday. Do you find this manabase unstable?
Wasteland should be a must play in form of two or three copies because you need outs against some lands in the format that can cause many problems if they're unanswered. I played zero wastelands when I started to play the deck in august and was a firm defender of my no-wasteland version, but after my first two tournaments I realized I just needed them.

[Waikiki]

Congratulations will certainly be testing our your UW list. The amounth of basics are so nice to play with! You still prefer that sword over feast and famine/fire ice?

[Frid]

Definetly. After 4 months playing the deck I'm pretty sure SoBM is the best sword this deck can run, at least in the versions I've played with.

[Dzra]

Do you find this manabase unstable?

It's pretty stable. It's less stable than it would if it ran no Wastelands, but it's more stable than it would if it ran Mishra's Factory. And that's the thing, I'm not sure Wasteland is better more often than Factory.


Wasteland should be a must play in form of two or three copies because you need outs against some lands in the format that can cause many problems if they're unanswered. I played zero wastelands when I started to play the deck in august and was a firm defender of my no-wasteland version, but after my first two tournaments I realized I just needed them.

You might be right, although I've been quite the opposite. I ran 4 when I first started playing and moved down to 3 then 2 because I've found that in most MUs in most games, I just don't have any really good targets and sometimes even when I have a good target, I'd rather have the mana.

It's tough to decide which swords to run. I was somewhat torn between SoFF and SoFI. SoBM is probably the best in terms of racing big Green creatures, but SoFF is better in control mirrors where the CA and tempo can really matter (not to mention pro-Black removal and pro-Batterskull). I've been thinking lately that with the rise of RUG, SoFI might be pushed to the top. Snapcaster Mage should allow us to out-removal most decks, which I think will make the pro-Green swords less relevant. I used to run 2 swords MD, but I'm going to be trying just SoFI for a bit so that I can run more counters and be a little more streamlined.

[Frid]

The thing is that 90% of the creatures that are bigger than yours equipped are green, so it seems optimal to run a pro green sword, and SoBM wins games that SoFF would never win.
SoFI has the best effects by far and is the right choice when you're playing a couple of flyers, but that's not my case.
Running some wastelands can spare you hard times against an active grove, maze, academy ruins or volrath's stronghold, among many others. And also help against manlands, the other day in the tournament I defeated BUG landstill in the second match simply because he had standstill, I responded with snapcaster, he played factory and I had the wasteland. Nice game sir. Obviously this is exceptional, but you get the idea.

[crovakiet]

The thing is that 90% of the creatures that are bigger than yours equipped are green, so it seems optimal to run a pro green sword, and SoBM wins games that SoFF would never win.
SoFI has the best effects by far and is the right choice when you're playing a couple of flyers, but that's not my case.
Running some wastelands can spare you hard times against an active grove, maze, academy ruins or volrath's stronghold, among many others. And also help against manlands, the other day in the tournament I defeated BUG landstill in the second match simply because he had standstill, I responded with snapcaster, he played factory and I had the wasteland. Nice game sir. Obviously this is exceptional, but you get the idea.

Sometimes Frid I think it is almost a lost cause to try and convince people that Sword of Feast and Famine is not always the best sword for Blade Control and its variants. There is somehow a stigma attached to Sword of Body and Mind that propels people to argue vehemently against its use since they see Sword of Feast and Famine as STRICTLY better and are probably dazzled by its prevalent usage in the Standard format. I don't bother trying to explain it anymore to people due to this. I guess you can keep up the good fight...but yes Sword of Body and Mind can win games where Sword of Feast and Famine would NEVER win.

[Frid]

Whatever, I have to fight for it with arguments :smile:. But I won't get back to it again and again.
It's logical that people are hard influenced by winner lists, with most of them running SoFF. If they just tested things a bit by themselves...

[TkDodo]

Well, I for my part tested SoFF, SoFI and SoBM. SoFI has the best effect but the worst protection. I believe we definitely need pro:green, since we have the most trouble with these kind of decks. The issue I have with SoBM is the following: Some decent amount of the time, I don't want to mill my opponent, but I have to. It makes Goyf bigger. It makes Terravore bigger. It gives them Life from the Loam or Punishing Fire in the yard. Even worse: In some imporant matchups where I need the body, it might put Ancient Grudge in the yard, which will kill you. You can't attack effectively against dredge or Reanimator. And: It's useless against storm. And that's where I like SoFF. The untap and discard effect is great. AnT will miss the one card they have to discard, plus I get to untap and am able to counter and/or play Snapcaster -> Counter. Against every other deck, I also don't want to tap out. With SoFF, I will always have mana free to untap. It goes well with manlands. The first equip effect is for free, which is especially important, becuase SoBM ties my mana for 3 (in words: three) turns, because I have to a) play SFM, b) vial the sword in and c) equip. Both Batterskull and SoFF only need two turns of mana. Pro:black is also relevant for protection from opposing Germ Tokens and black removal spells.

Maybe you could provide more relevant information than "SoBM wins games that SoFF would never win". Apart from the obvious "You attack, make a body, equip said body and can block a green creature while making damage". SoFF can provide the same for you. If you need more bodys, play more manlands. And if I only have one body, I simply don't attack if I can't survive a counter strike. It's not like I need to tempo my oppnent out...

[Frid]

I provided several times information and arguments on why SoBM is better than SoFF. You can take a look on previous pages, I won't copy paste it again and again.
It's obvious that the milling ability has disadvantages, it has sometimes also its advantages but usually it is a dead ability. But the discard ability from SoFF is also very weak, so there's no big difference there.
The thing is, and that's why I find SoBM strictly better, that SoFF is better in tied games against tied matchups and SoBM in hard matchups and in games you're losing. I prefer every day the second scenario, as in the first one I will be able to win simply by playing better than my opponent and in the second one I will have to draw my outs quickly or just lose, nothing very skill intensive. And SoBM highly increases my outs, as I have four tutors for it.
Anyway, I'm a bit tired of repeating the same things every time, so I won't get back to this again. This is just my experience, play whatever you feel comfortable with.

[TkDodo]

You should really be careful about statements involving the clause "strictly better". I looked up all the pages of this thread, guess what I found:



My decision was to play sword of body and mind first of all because 90% of the opposite creatures that were bigger than my equipped creatures were green, so I wanted SoBM or SoFF. And second, the SoBM gives you a body to equip every turn, which is essential to race big mosters like knight of the reliquary when you just have one creature on the board: Equip it, swing, make a token, equip token, block whatever, swing, make another token, equip it... with SoFF you can't win when you're behind or even tied because they can easily race you with their big guys. This was much more important for me than being able to untap lands or whatever. Obviously the milling ability is useless 95% of the time, but what I was interested in was the creating tokens ability because of what I explained.

and


I had to choose one, and it was SoBM because the token trigger lets you race opposite big creatures (which are green 90% of the time) by swinging and after combat equipping the token, and doing it again turn after turn. It's the only sword that is able to race an unfavourable field by itself.


Maybe you should read my post again, I said:


Apart from the obvious "You attack, make a body, equip said body and can block a green creature while making damage".


But effectively, that's your only argument. You completely discount the fact that the milling ability is not only irrelevant, but can also hurt yourself quite some. Untapping is a lot better than you give it credit for. Especially since as a heavy control deck, we want to always have mana open when it's our opponents turn. Also, I think that the racing scenario you provide sounds quite illusionary. Sure, it will happen, but probably not as often as having mana up in our opponents turn closes the door for him. First of all, when you start racing him, you will probably be behind in life totals. We sword his stuff, he hits us with his creatures. I don't have any numbers, but you can't assume that you and your opponent will have the same amount of life once this scenario occurs. Now we also have to assume that our opponent will have two creatures out, because if he has only one creature, I just equip my guy with SoFF and just not attack. As a control deck, there's no need to rush some damage into my opponent. Or I attack, let him discard a card, untap and play Jace or whatnot. Things I probably can't do if I need my mana to equip creatures all day long. So if he has two big green guys (without trample btw, so Terravore doesn't count), then I'm probably better off with SoBM. Except if one of these guys is KoTR, because he'll just use it to tutor up Maze of Ith, which we can't beat without Wasteland. Or (although rarely played) Tower of the Magistrate. Or just Horizon Canopy and bury us in card advantage. So actually, we can narrow this scenario down to our opponent having two Goyfs or a Goyf and a Scavenging Ooze. What a likely situation. I'd much rather have a sword that gives a protection so BUG decks can't destroy the creature, ever. And that's better against combo because you can use your mana for free during your turns. A sword that makes your manlands better. A sword that generates card advantage by Raven's Criming your opponent.

But I'm fine if your are not willing to talk about this topic. I think I provided some relevant arguments for SoFF and against SoBM. Still, if the only thing that matters to you is "but you can attack, make a guy, re-equip and block the goooyf", so be it. It just looks a little bit .... narrow ....

[Frid]

It is strictly better because the scenarios that really matter are the hard ones, not the favourable or the even ones. Unfavourable board positions can't be revoked with anything but drawing the right cards. If you get a SoFF while facing an unfavourable board you will end up losing unless you start drawing answers. If you get a SoBM there's a high chance you will get that game even if you draw blank for the rest of it. If you still don't understand it it's simply better to leave the discussion here, because you're proving to me that you have never played SoBM against GW and Zenith Bant, the two harder matchups of the deck together with 24-one-drop zoo and therefore the two matchups I mostly care about. I could go one by one discussing all the arguments you provided, but it would too much time for nothing really profitable for the though games, the ones I do care about. My "only argument" IS the actual argument, and is above any other argument you or me could provide because it's the way you can defeat the bad matchups of the deck without sb. I've won many games where SoBM shined because it created creatures, and then they got equipped to block, easily racing two and even three big monsters with just a lonely 1/2 on my side. No way any other sword could have won those games. But I don't pretend to create an army of adepts for SoBM, I try to explain my point of view given my experience with the deck, which I find considerable.
For my part I'll finish here with the discussion, and best luck with SoFF!

[TkDodo]

This is what I dislike the most about this forum in general: The reluctance of people to discuss strategy and provide useful information for everybody else. All that's ever going on here is everybody posting their own decklists, asking what cards to board out, resulting in people only posting more decklists which they happend to pilot to a good finish somewhere somewhen. When you try to get a real strategy or general card choice discussion going (without posting an actual decklist because I think this is the most irrelevant thing ever), if there is a response at all, its a response like yours: "I could go into detail, but I won't". Great for this forum.
You said people should netdeck less and test (and actually think) for themselves moreoften. I second this. Totally. But once somebody does and disagrees with your oppinion, you are unwilling to discuss. The result of this discussion should not be that, in the end, I believe that you are right or vice versa. It should provide arguments for both side so that everybody who reads this can come to their own conclusion. If you are not willing to do that, there is no reason to post in the first place. By just posting a decklist and declining every discussion with things like "My argument is the only real argument", you actually encourage people to just copy decklists without thinking. Maybe its different for you because this time it's your decklist though.

But as you said, discussion ended. Let's go back to stupidly posting decklists and asking questions like "I just copied your list and don't know how to sideboard, please state exactly what you do in every possible matchup so I can copy that too".

[catmint]

Interesting to see such a heated discussion about which is the best/right sword and I think both sides have valid arguments. Is the 2nd best sword so much worse than 1 SB slot?

My 2 cents:
The situations frid described are a very good argument for body and mind. The effects of Feast and Famine are more powerful in a vacuum. Versus BUG decks, Feast and Famine is very good. The most important effect of a sword is probably the protection, so the question is if it is more important in the maindeck to have protection from jace and blue chump blockers or from black removal (dismember,...)? I would play SoFF maindeck and SoBM in the sideboard.

[Cotes16]

well...to sum up we can say that the 2 swords shine in different match up:
SOBM is better when you need to race opponent (zoo, maverick and so on...)
SOFF is better when you need card/tempo advantage (control and combo)
...so a good idea would be to play one in the main and one in the side depending on which meta you expect!

[klaus]

Hey Frid,

are you sold on 4 being the right amount of Snapcasters?
I do lean towards 3 (--> don't want them in my starting 7), but haven't tested the full playset extensively.

thx

[Frid]

Snapcaster mage is amazing and I want always one of them in my initial 7, having one swords to plowshares and one mage in my hand gives me high confidence against any creature based deck, and against the rest you'll want as many counterspells or brainstorms as possible. In other words, you never have enough swords to plowshares or brainstorms, and if you do then you'll want more counterspells and snares.
I played just 3 in the first tournament as they were legal because I was unsure about their real impact on the game, but since then I know I want the full playset. It's blue, a body to equip, card advantage, using many of your more powerful cards once again... the nuts.

[dan who?]

well...to sum up we can say that the 2 swords shine in different match up:
SOBM is better when you need to race opponent (zoo, maverick and so on...)
SOFF is better when you need card/tempo advantage (control and combo)
...so a good idea would be to play one in the main and one in the side depending on which meta you expect!

I definitely agree it probably depends on your meta as well. My meta has no merfolk or goblins currently so swords like Fire and Ice didn't do as much for me as a pro-green sword would. Bant decks started to spring up around my area so I've been using SoBM currently. I like SoFF and SoFI in a vacuum more but there is a ton of blue and Jace bounce is very relevant for me.


Hey Frid,

are you sold on 4 being the right amount of Snapcasters?
I do lean towards 3 (--> don't want them in my starting 7), but haven't tested the full playset extensively.

thx

FWIW, I've never been mad when I see a snapcaster mage and have been playing a full playset as well. It was pretty funny to play a game against combo elves and game 1 I ended the game with all 4 snapcasters and I was just able to counter and remove everything my opponent played. Of course that hand was redic but it definitely nice to see all of those Tiagos.

[planeswalkerzen]

So this is my decklist. Let me know what you think. I think it's pretty standard.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Labotary
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
4 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Purify the Grave
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, the Knight Errant

Thoughts?

[Waikiki]

@Hugo,

I see your still using 2 explosives side in your UW build. Have they been effective enough with just two colors?

[bluna]

why you guys play purify the grave over surgical extraction?

[Waikiki]

We don't, he does.

[bluna]

i've seen it in plenty lists, so i was looking for a reason. But i couldn't find any =D

[ivanpei]

Purify seems pretty narrow IMO. But being able to double cast it against reanimator is strong. However surgical is much better against dredge whereas purify barely affects them at all.

Surgical can also annoy various combo decks out there + gives you info on their hand. It's just more flexible overall. I'm sticking to surgical. Purify is also nice in the snapcaster mirror but it can be played around. You're obviously not going to walk into the flashbacked purify.

[Frid]

Me neither, I prefer surgical all day long. Free spells in legacy are awesome.

@Waikiki: Yes, they're still pretty useful: GW, tribal decks, zoo, threshold decks, counterbalance... Ok, now I can't kill chokes or reliquarys, but my big deal is to kill nacatl, mongoose and vial, and I still can do that. Those are the reason I always played explosives in the sb. Losing a bit of versatility doesn't make the card unuseful, and cards like disenchant are too weak for me to run them. Indeed they were the card I sided most times in during the tournament.
The worst card from my sb was by far spell pierce, but there's nothing better in UW to fit their role (be useful against control and combo) I mean, it is not good, but it's the less worse option and at least they're very versatile, so I think we have to play them despite being mediocre unless someone discovers any better replacement, which I didn't.

[Cotes16]

purify the grave can be very very good because of flashback...this mean that you can remove 2 different dredgers and not just 1 as with surgical...and so prevent the opponent to start dragging...last week i played on mtgo my dredge deck and i lost because of this...

do not forget that explosive can be really good also against dredge at 0!

[Polish Tamales]

You also have to consider turn 0 Thought Seize/Duress/Cabal. You're kinda screwed if you have Surgical, whereas Purify you have at least 1 last shot until draw another. Even if you do rely on Snapcaster to bring it back, you need at least 3 land drops to bring back Surgical from the grave, whereas with Purify, you need 1 white sources open. You can probably go with Purify + Meddling Mage and shut down Dredge (by naming Dread Returns). The Spell Snares should easily stop Echoing Truth from bouncing the Mage back. Or you could just go straight 3 Surgicals and ignore the turn 1 Seize/Duress/Cabal in games 2~3.

I agree though, against dredge, purify the grave isn't enough. You can go with either one, but it's strictly meta dependent between the two. I think we need to discuss the current issues in the meta with Tempo Rug and probably more people coming in with Reanimator/Dredge as entry level decks now. I've been working on some solutions to the sideboard, but give me your thoughts on it. I've been considering dropping Meddling Mage to 2 and putting an extra Batterskull, but I don't know if that will make it less effective.

Sideboard for U/W version

3x Purify the Grave - Reanimator/Dredge
3x Path to Exile - Aggro/Rug
2x Fluster Storm - Burn/Storm/Combo
3x Meddling Mage - Combo/Elves/Dredge/Reanimator (Show & Tell)
1x Disenchant - Top/Mirror
1X Elspeth - Aggro/Mirror
2x Wrath of God - Rug/Aggro/Elves/Merfolk

Some people are starting to toss in a single Thrund in their main boards now... so I dunno if Wrath should become main also, considering the current meta where there's half janky decks with silver bullet cards.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Anyways, I decided to try out esperblade, since the red was very underwhelming versus non control blue decks. The list I'm current trying is

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Wastelands

(23 lands)

4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Vendilion Clique

(10 Creatures)

3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Spell Pierce
2x Path to Exile
3x Bitterblossom

(27 Spells)

ANND a weird sb I'm trying out

2x Engineered Explosives
2x Vindicate
2x Path to Exile
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top

I'm not using dark confidants because the life loss would be too much: bitterblossom + confidant is very painful. On top of that, the mb is running 5x cc5 spells, 3x cc4 spells, and 4x cc3 spells. All in all making for some very painful flips. Also, I'm not really packing any discard mb since I didnt want to have to fetch black very often-- ideally i'd fetch U, W, U, then B to avoid getting tempo'd out. Blossom does seem worthwhile right now: all of the X/1's floating around (snapcaster, clique, bob) that it stops from attacking as well as chumping goyfs, delvers, mongeese. Pro black is a bit of a problem, but if they have a sword out, they'll probably be able to get through anyways.

From testing, sobam is far superior to the other swords: the protection it gives you basically gives you board dominance, especially on a flyer. Versus Rug tempo, 1 connect will usually put me in a position to win the game -- the wolf token is verrryy relevant. Versus combo, sobam is probably the best: milling 10 versus almost any combo deck (minus dredge/reanimator) helps by potentially removing any 1-2 ofs that they use their tutors on. Post board, swinging in with sobam, milling a infernal/wish and then extracting it is pretty good.

The counterbalance sb is something that I haven't really tested out yet, but it does seem fun. The curve fits balance well enough that i think out of the board, it can be useful, especially versus combo and rug to a lesser extent.

[Frid]

So, you're trying a list with stoneforge mystic but no equipment? :laugh:

[somethingdotdotdot]

oopsss lol

theres 1x batterskull, 1x sobam

[ivanpei]

You also have to consider turn 0 Thought Seize/Duress/Cabal. You're kinda screwed if you have Surgical, whereas Purify you have at least 1 last shot until draw another. Even if you do rely on Snapcaster to bring it back, you need at least 3 land drops to bring back Surgical from the grave, whereas with Purify, you need 1 white sources open. You can probably go with Purify + Meddling Mage and shut down Dredge (by naming Dread Returns). The Spell Snares should easily stop Echoing Truth from bouncing the Mage back. Or you could just go straight 3 Surgicals and ignore the turn 1 Seize/Duress/Cabal in games 2~3.

I agree though, against dredge, purify the grave isn't enough. You can go with either one, but it's strictly meta dependent between the two. I think we need to discuss the current issues in the meta with Tempo Rug and probably more people coming in with Reanimator/Dredge as entry level decks now. I've been working on some solutions to the sideboard, but give me your thoughts on it. I've been considering dropping Meddling Mage to 2 and putting an extra Batterskull, but I don't know if that will make it less effective.

Sideboard for U/W version

3x Purify the Grave - Reanimator/Dredge
3x Path to Exile - Aggro/Rug
2x Fluster Storm - Burn/Storm/Combo
3x Meddling Mage - Combo/Elves/Dredge/Reanimator (Show & Tell)
1x Disenchant - Top/Mirror
1X Elspeth - Aggro/Mirror
2x Wrath of God - Rug/Aggro/Elves/Merfolk

Some people are starting to toss in a single Thrund in their main boards now... so I dunno if Wrath should become main also, considering the current meta where there's half janky decks with silver bullet cards.

Dredge does not play Duress/Thoughtseize. As for Cabal Therapy, I highly doubt they will get it right the first time. They can call a wide variety of things, from Surgical to Tormods to Relic. Even then, if I was a good Dredge player, I'd call force because force is always a 4 off and Surgicals/ Crypts/ Relics are a dodgy call at best and might not be played as a 4 off. Purify really doesn't do anything against Dredge. If you purify an Ichorid/Bridge it barely does anything! At least Surgical lets you rip up their DECK as well. It permanently removes one of their weapons.

Also you need to keep mana open for Purify when you should really be trying your best to pressure them. I much prefer a split of 2/2 Surgical and Tormod's in the board. It gives Dredge players headaches on what to call while making anti-hate very tricky.

[JJ_JKidd]

Aside from aggro, what MU do you remove FOW post board?

Got raped last night in testing vs Tempo *****. His plays:

1. Wasteland my Tundra + Surgical
2. Surgical Extr my StP

Jeez, how do you guys combat the Tempo ***** MU? Thanks!

[kues]

Playing @Frid's list with 8 basic lands :)

[Polish Tamales]

Have you guys seen David Ochoa's Blade Control list yet? He said it was built against Rug Tempo in mind. He played this at this year's Worlds going 4-1, losing to Dredge.


Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Mutavault
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Island

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
3 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
1 Batterskull
2 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wrath of God


Here's a deck tech link for the details: http://youtu.be/aNYO6ori5Jo

[Frid]

A very weak sb in my opinion. Cards like disenchant or purify the grave just don't make the cut for me.

[klaus]

A very weak sb in my opinion. Cards like disenchant or purify the grave just don't make the cut for me.

I still like my 2 SB Disenchants VS. all those Chokes running around lately.

Anyone has a better solution, I'm all ears.

[Polish Tamales]

I still like my 2 SB Disenchants VS. all those Chokes running around lately.


That's pretty much what Ochoa said in his deck tech. That's not to mention an out against a mirror.

The way I see it, Channel Fireball worked extensively to make sure they were at least in top 8 this year in Worlds. They worked as a team (literally scooping to one another if it allowed the other person to advance) to find the best decks in each format and exploit the meta. They had a variety of decks to choose from for the Legacy/Team portion of Worlds. Of all the decks, they ended up with a simple U/W Stoneblade with some very interesting ways to handle RUG Tempo (which I can assume was the deck they were confidently prepared for at Worlds). It seems if it wasn't for the Dredge match up, David would've had a perfect record.

It doesn't mean that u/w was the best deck for Legacy, but for Channel Fireball, they felt it was the best balanced deck coming into Worlds with a near perfect pilot.

[TkDodo]

I still like my 2 SB Disenchants VS. all those Chokes running around lately.

Anyone has a better solution, I'm all ears.

That implies that you bring in your Disenchants against Maverick, which seems kind of narrow. I know, it takes care of Chokes (unless you are tapped out on your white sources already that turn), and it's also good against Sylvan Library and Equipments. Overall, not that bad, but still a bit narrow. I prefer to bring in Engineered Explosives (you need to splash red for that to work against Choke though), because it's also good against their creatures, and Spell Pierce, which is also golden against Chokes, Equipments and also very important against early GSZ. I don't think Choke is that important anymore once they could resolve it through a Spell Pierce. At that point in time, you should have 4-5 mana yourself already and can maybe play through it, or have another solution to the problem.
For straight U/W, it looks like there is no better solution though. Oh and in the mirror btw, I prefer Shackles over Disenchant. You effectively have to go for the Jace win if they resolve a Shackles against you.

Regarding Purify the Grave, I also think Surgical Extraction is miles better. The only matchup where I see myself wanting a Purify the Grave might be Reanimator. I'm not that afraid of them though, because even if they stop my GY-hate, there is still Countermagic, Swords, Jaces and maybe Karakas to dodge for them. Dredge is way tougher as we know, and Surgical Extration coupled with Snapcaster Mage is the best weapon we have for that matchup. Once we get rid of their Bridges, it becomes hard for them to race a Germ token.

[Frid]

The fact that he lost to dredge proves that the decks needs more powerful cards against graveyards than purify the grave, nothing to add here.
Disenchant is versatile, but very weak. First of all, I sideboard out 2 stoneforge and the sword in the mirror, so the disenchants from my opponents become dead (it's easy to play around it with batterskull), and as far as I know many good players do the same. And second, the key card that wins the mirror match is jace, so you should build your gameplan around this and play cards that may help you in resolving yours and avoiding your opponent resolving his. Red elemental blast is the best option therefore, spell pierce is ok if you're straight UW and disenchant does nothing.
It is true that the card is useful to fight choke, but first of all you don't know if your opponent is playing them. Second, he's not playing blue and he will be playing two or at the most 3 copies, so it's easy that he doesn't draw the card for the entire game and you end up with a dead card in hand, and third, if he draws it you can either counter it, or send it to the bottom with clique, or win with it on the table. You maybe end up losing one game from ten because of your opponent was running choke in his sideboard and you didn't have the answer for it. That's not enough for me, and every time I try disenchant in my sb I feel I'm wasting two precious slots.

[Dzra]

I agree, Purify the Grave seems weak in most GY matchups. Surgical Extraction is miles ahead and, if you can support it, Extirpate is miles ahead of that.

Disenchant seems all around weak. You might board it in against Green decks to stop Choke. You might board it in against the mirror to stop equipment. Why not board Oblivion Ring instead? It hits Choke, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, equipment, Bitterblossom, and creatures. Against Green decks that are likely to board in Choke, you are always looking for extra removal. If they don't draw the Choke and draw gas instead, that Disenchant feels really dumb. At least O-Ring will get there. Same in the mirror. What if they don't draw their SFM and are on the Jace plan? Nice Disenchant, bro.

Not to kick a dead horse, but back to the Sword argument momentarily. The thing that draws me to Sword of Feast and Famine is the untap. Pro-Black is nice sometimes and Pro-Green is obviously good. If it wasn't for Taigo, things might be different, but SoFF allows us to swing and then still have open mana to be very interactive on their turn. Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile (from the board), Taigo, Vendilion Clique, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, the ability to SFM in more equipment.... we like mana. SoFF let's us have mana for things like dropping Jace and suiting up dudes on our turn and then gives us mana for interacting on their turn. Sword of Body and Mind is better in the corner cases where you are staring at a short clock of 3-4 Green dudes. In that situation, SoBM will shine for the reasons already stated.

However, I'd argue that with Taigo and access to 8 1-mana removal spells postboard that something is very wrong if we let ourselves get into that situation. More likely, we control the board to some extent and our suited guy swings in. Against GWx decks, what that means is that we either win outright or they find a Qasali Pridemage/Green Sun's Zenith/Krosan Grip for our equipment. In the second scenario, we either have a few wolves that are reduced to chump blockers or we have a board that is accelerated due to 2-3 turns of having double the mana. In that case, I'd rather have the advanced board-state.

After more testing, I found that I really prefer the second Sword MD and would strongly recommend running with SoFI if you expect to see much RUG. SoFI is great not only against Fish, Goblins, and RUG, but any weenie strategy really, including the mirror and BW.

[ReinVos]

Oblivion Ring might be more versatile but Disenchant is much easier to cast. Choke can catch you with your pants down when you resolve Jace in your turn. The same holds true for Disenchant but in those kinds of situations 2 mana is much easier to get than 3. Also, as a control deck, you can keep mana open so that you can answer Choke before you untap. And in the mirror, if your opponent puts an equipment down with Mystic, you can destroy it immediately or in response to equipping. Keeping mana open is very important because you might want to counter or Tiago something. Speaking of Tiago, you can flashback a Disenchant. Also, in the mirror, you can destroy assembly workers (factory) with it (which in a SoFF-build is even more likely).

I understand that Oblivion Ring has a much wider range but you board Disenchants when faced with problem artifacts or enchantments. This is something the main deck can't deal with. Planeswalkers and creatures can be taken care off already. So if you have a Disenchant in hand but there are no targets, that's fine because you're boarding them for artifacts or enchantments that cause you trouble. As long as it's not there yet you're good, and if it ever gets there you can destroy it immediately. Yes, Disenchant won't help you against a horde of creatures but as you pointed out, if you just die to a horde post board you've done something horribly wrong. Between Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Snapcaster and Wrath of God you're probably busy plowing and wrathing to be able to pay three mana for an Oblivion Ring.

I'll admit Elspeth is a real nuisance. Depending on your list she's hard/impossible to legend slay, she beats Jace and it's hard to deplete her loyalty with the stream of soldiers she creates. But Elspeth aside, this deck already has an excellent sideboard against creatures, so the only permanents we really need an answer to from the board are artifacts and enchantments and although Disenchant isn't a very good card (white Nature's Claim anyone?) it does it's job well.

[TkDodo]

O-Ring sounds good in theory, but don't forget that certain cards exist that can handle an O-Ring (namely Quasali Pridemage). It's no Vindicate after all. I still think that overall, O-Ring would be better than Disenchant, although I think neither is neccessary in a board.

[ivanpei]

Chris VM is a huge fan of spellstutters + vaults md. Am I the only one who doesn't like them? I play 2 paths and factories instead. I feel that more removal + 3/3 blockers > slow, narrow, conditional flyers.

Also I like elspeth in the board, but I play 4 Jace md. Chances of hitting super friends is pretty slim and overkill. I just like having more of the better walker. Also pitching to force/ brainstorming away the extra copy is fine as well.

[TkDodo]

Chris VM is a huge fan of spellstutters + vaults md. Am I the only one who doesn't like them? I play 2 paths and factories instead. I feel that more removal + 3/3 blockers > slow, narrow, conditional flyers.

Also I like elspeth in the board, but I play 4 Jace md. Chances of hitting super friends is pretty slim and overkill. I just like having more of the better walker. Also pitching to force/ brainstorming away the extra copy is fine as well.

I never liked them, too. I also play factories and two additional removal spells in the form of Lightning Bolt, since I have the red splash for REB in the board already.

Regarding Elspeth, I don't think she's maindeck material, but I like her in the board. However, recently, I swapped her out for a Vedalken Shackles (which I don't have main). I think Shackles does more against the decks I really want it. I would side both in against Maverick and the mirror and in matches where I board out the SFMs to get more threat density, but Shackles does more for me in most of the matches where I really need it. Elspeth might be better in the mirror, but REB does the job pretty well.

[SupREME-10]

I am fairly new to these boards; but I have been working on my version of Blade Control for a little while now.

What I would like to do is offer up my list and ask for comments, criticisms, suggestions from you guys. Feel free to offer anything as I am open to ideas and we can all learn from each other.

Maindeck

1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Crucible of Worlds
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
1 x Repeal
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendilion Clique
3 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Land
3 x Island
2 x Plains
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tundra
2 x Mutavault
2 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Riptide Laboratory


Sideboard
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Sword of Body and Mind
1 x Flusterstorm
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Peacekeeper
2 x Wrath of God


Now did read a lot about other cards such as Vedalken Shackles etc; but so far I like the Super-Friend style for this deck to start with. Anyway feel free to give me your thoughts.

[ivanpei]

I think you really need the 4th Snap and the 4th Spell Snare, those cards are extremely important in most matchups. Cards like Repeal and Crucible IMO are cute MD but not compulsory. Also, I usually don't run the 2nd plains, I prefer the 4th Island. I can see that you play double Elspeths, forcing you to be able to make double white. This is one of the reasons why I don't like running Elspeth MD, getting to double white is not that easy against RUG tempo etc.

Cheers.

[dan who?]

Chris VM is a huge fan of spellstutters + vaults md. Am I the only one who doesn't like them? I play 2 paths and factories instead. I feel that more removal + 3/3 blockers > slow, narrow, conditional flyers.

Also I like elspeth in the board, but I play 4 Jace md. Chances of hitting super friends is pretty slim and overkill. I just like having more of the better walker. Also pitching to force/ brainstorming away the extra copy is fine as well.

I've gone back and forth with this before especially with Ochoa playing the faerie version at worlds. I played the faerie version back when MM was legal and I never liked it. The SS were always in my hand and didn't really counter anything and was a slow clock without a sword or just a chump blocker. I always wanted to see more cliques when I played the faerie version so I went back to 3 cliques and 0 SS version and haven't looked back. I always liked factories more than vaults in U/W versions but I'm currently running the red splash and don't run either.

I don't currently run Elspeth in the board but have in the past and liked it but right now I prefer extra removal and other SB options currently and I also play 4 Jace MD as I always want to see him.

[ivanpei]

I've gone back and forth with this before especially with Ochoa playing the faerie version at worlds. I played the faerie version back when MM was legal and I never liked it. The SS were always in my hand and didn't really counter anything and was a slow clock without a sword or just a chump blocker. I always wanted to see more cliques when I played the faerie version so I went back to 3 cliques and 0 SS version and haven't looked back. I always liked factories more than vaults in U/W versions but I'm currently running the red splash and don't run either.

I don't currently run Elspeth in the board but have in the past and liked it but right now I prefer extra removal and other SB options currently and I also play 4 Jace MD as I always want to see him.

Yeap, I agree with most of your points. On another note, is 6 md removal overkill? I was looking for another threat to replace the 2nd path and remembered phantasmal image. In theory he looks good, copying tarmos, snaps and kotrs/sfms.

Has anyone tested image heavily and liked him? I was thinking I running the 3rd clique but 4 snaps + 3 cliques = 7 three drops, which is pretty heavy for me.

[SupREME-10]

Phantasmal Image is a bomb when you copy a Dark Confidant, or Goyf; but sucks if there is nothing to copy (dead in hand).

And yes I tested him, in more aggro decks he is smoking good stuff and my Merfolk run 2x P-image for just that reason.

[dan who?]

Yeap, I agree with most of your points. On another note, is 6 md removal overkill? I was looking for another threat to replace the 2nd path and remembered phantasmal image. In theory he looks good, copying tarmos, snaps and kotrs/sfms.

Has anyone tested image heavily and liked him? I was thinking I running the 3rd clique but 4 snaps + 3 cliques = 7 three drops, which is pretty heavy for me.

I haven't really tested image but I know a lot of scg grinders play/played 2 in their SB for Emrakul, Progenitus, thrun, and mirror matches (getting more SFM's is nice etc) and liked them.

[ivanpei]

Tested image some today instead of the 6th md removal spell. It was ok, legend ruling cliques/mangaras/thruns were some of the more useful applications. I do have to admit I would still have preferred the 2nd path. I almost always want to have a removal spell in the yard to snapcast. I'm going back to the 2nd path. Also I like a singleton crucible out of the board. But putting another wasteland in the board seems like a waste. The only mu I would like to see it is against rug, where an extra land is always useful.

I'm playing a full playset of pierces in the board. It seems like the deck has a very iffy combo matchup. I prefer a full set of pierces due to flexibility (ie against LED dredge, walkers, countertop, enchantress) but is the extra power of flusterstorm worth running a 2/2 split? Flusterstorm seems like it would be very strong in stopping reanimator in its tracks since they can't force/daze back.

[sadakiyo]

Hi there. I have a difficulty fighting against bant aggro. Is this supposed to be a bad matchup for u/w blade? My decklist is as follows
4 snapcaster
3 vendilion clique
4 stoneforge

4 stp
4 brainstorm
4 fow
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

2 ponder

3 jace the mind sculptor

1 batterskull
1 sword of body and mind

4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
3 wasteland
2 plains
1 mountain
1 riptide laboratory
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
5 island

SB
3 REB
3 WOG
3 spell pierce
3 relic of progenitus
2 disenchant
1 manriki gusari

I just got this deck last month and been playin with it on 3 local tournaments
my meta is filled with aggro decks （gobbos， merfolk， gw maverick， bant， and zoo） with 1 or 2 combo decks showing up （emrakul and ant）
my questions are：
I know my SB is not optimal， I am thinking of changing 3 relics with 3 surgical。 is this a good choice？？
What cards need to be sided out for aggro MU， especially GW maverick and BANT？？？
is REB worth bringing in during bant MU？ FYI its the NO bant

Thanks in advance

[ivanpei]

my questions are：
I know my SB is not optimal， I am thinking of changing 3 relics with 3 surgical。 is this a good choice？？
What cards need to be sided out for aggro MU， especially GW maverick and BANT？？？
is REB worth bringing in during bant MU？ FYI its the NO bant

Thanks in advance

I think a 2/1 Split of Surgical-Tormod's is good. I play a 2/2. Splitting your hate is good because they might bring in Null Rods/Ancient Grudge G3 if they spot crypt and you end up drawing Surgical instead. Or if you use Surgical G2, they won't bring in bounce for Crypt and get surprised by it G3. I always prefer a split.

Against GW Maverick, I board out the Stoneblade package. I board in Wraths and removal. By playing no SFM, you are basically semi-blanking their removal. STPing a snapcaster is pretty weak. I don't play Manriki in the board or disenchants. I prefer Oblivion Ring and Elspeth. Oblivion ring IMO is more flexible because it can deal with Sylvan Library /Choke / Equipment or even KOTR. I don't run disenchants but Ideally you'd want them in this MU because they have pridemage, but Oring is better in the Stoneblade mirror because you can kill Jace with Oring. You also need some paths either in the board or MD. I md 2 paths (you can just swap your ponders for paths), so I always have plenty of removal in that MU. Sometimes it boils down to you having the answer for Mother of Runes, or you die an ugly death.

Elspeth is a nice bomb to complement your Jaces when you drop SFM post board, need to win somehow. If they walk into Wrath, thats great. If they don't, it gives you time to set up shop with Jace/Elspeth. That's the plan more or less. Against Bant, yes I will board in REBs/Spell pierces. But you play way too many anti blue cards. You need 4 slots max. I don't splash Red so I play 4 Spell Pierce. If I splashed red, I would just play 4 REBs. You can cut the additional pierces for Paths.

It it's NO bant, I would board out the SFMs + Equipment for the Wrath + Elspeth Package. SFM is too slow when you are facing down a progenitus. Though REB does not counter NO, you need it to Protect your FOW, counter their Cliques, or to force through your own Cliques. Cheers.

[sadakiyo]

Thank you sir ivanpei， thats quite some enlightening comment you got there。 I
just knew that SFM can be boarded out sometime。
I always thought that he shouldn't be boarded out at all。 If I board him out， does the equipment goes too？？

What do you think about the 2 MD ponder？？？ I like it so far， but does 2 vedalken shackles goes better knowing my meta is filled with aggro？？

[ivanpei]

I think Shackles is ok, but you want to cut clique for shackles because you will be too heavy @ the 3 drop ie Snaps + Clique. Watching your curve is quite important. Ponder is ok if you don't want to run too many lands (I play 24 without ponders or 23 with 1 Ponder).

And yes, when you board out SFM, Equipment gets boarded out too. Also if you plan to play shackles, this build is interesting:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42534

Just did well at the SCG open. Mostly basic lands with MD Back to Basics. Interesting tech? Plenty of basics makes Shackles better. Shackles does not combo with Wastes/Factories/Vaults/Riptide. I think shackles is better in this kind of basics heavy build.

[SupREME-10]

Did more testing today, using Delver of Secrets, instead of Sprites... I did like them as the deck does have enough cards to support them well. Anyway, let me know what you think of this list (oh and Mishra's took the place of Mutavaults, as there was so much less need of Fairies).

Maindeck

1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Crucible of Worlds
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
1 x Repeal
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords to Plowshares

3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Land
3 x Island
2 x Plains
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
4 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tundra
2 x Mishra's Factory
2 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Riptide Laboratory


Sideboard
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Peacekeeper
2 x Wrath of God

I know that the changes seam subtle; but the deck did play a little smother as the Delver is worth playing a lot more than the Sprite was. It still has enough control for my liking, but I am always open to ideas. Thanks so far guys, your comments and discussion all help.

[anwei]

Has the red splash been relegated by most to sideboard support for (mainly) REB?
Is anyone using maindeck bolt/lavamancer/etc.?

[ivanpei]

Delver seems like an interesting idea. Anyone else has experience with it? The deck could be tuned to be slightly more aggro when playing with Delvers. Delver strikes me as a 4 or 0 kind of card. It's something like wild nacatl, it's a beast early game and pretty vanilla late. Also we don't really run enough manipulation (only 4 brainstorm) and too much non-spell cards in the deck.

I think if you tweak some of the MD Delver can be played, but the list would look pretty different. As for the Red splash, if you are splashing for MD bolts/ grims you limit your utility lands because you need to run more red lands. I play 2 paths MD instead of sprites which could easily be bolts. In that case I'd cut 2 Factories and an Island for 2 Volcs and a mountain.

[Koby]

Has the red splash been relegated by most to sideboard support for (mainly) REB?
Is anyone using maindeck bolt/lavamancer/etc.?

I run the following list:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
4 StP

2 Jace TMS

1 Batterskull
1 SoFF

2 Island
1 Plain
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile (probably weak, might go with EE or 1 Disenchant and 1 Crucible of Worlds)
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
3 REB
3 Meddling Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte

(I think I could use another Grim Lavamancer in the board too)

For UW/r versions, in order to NOT lose to Wasteland.dec, play minimum 4 basics. (2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Mountain)

Also, wait for 6 mana to hardcast Batterskull.

EDIT: I've been informed that my list is highly unoptimised. The list runs 21 lands, so additional cantrips are necessary to fix some hands. That replaces the 3rd Jace. The 9th removal is played because of my style, and could easily be another cantrip or the 4th Snapcaster.

[anwei]

9 removal spells + SCM + Lavamancer seems superfluous.
I was planning on starting with the same creatures but -1 Preordain, -4 Bolt, -1 Fire/Ice, +1 Counterspell, +1 Crucible, +3 Land, +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, then eventually trying out Bolt vs. Lavamancer.

In your testing, have you preferred the red to more useful/stable lands?

[chags]

Has the red splash been relegated by most to sideboard support for (mainly) REB?
Is anyone using maindeck bolt/lavamancer/etc.?

I run:
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will

4 Standstill

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's jitte

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
2 plains
2 island

SB: (this is for my personal meta)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Wrath of God
3 Surgical Extraction

[Koby]

I like that Grim Lavamancer is a MUST DEAL card for Threshold. It means they won't be doming you with Lightning Bolt, and it also answers Maverick much better than simple "Lightning Bolt" as its repetitive. I find usefulness in both together, and swords could be cut down to 2-3 likely, as it only needs to answer Goyfs and KotR; both of which appear infrequently and can be countered. I much prefer Bolt to StP in UW/r. I don't think 24 lands is the right amount either, and 22 is likely the right amount.

[Mucka]

I like that Grim Lavamancer is a MUST DEAL card for Threshold.

Why it is a MUST DEAL:eyebrow:?? The only Target is Delver. Mongo cant be targeted and Goofy is too big.
And you need 4 StoP. Lightning Bolt cant handle Reanimate Targets, Goofy, KotR´s, Ichorid, Tombstalker. If u play Batterskull u have only a 4/4 LL creature. Many craeatures are too big.

[Cotes16]

a good point in favor to grim lavamancer is also the great synergy between it and snap! :cool:

about delver of secrets: I don't think this is the right deck...we are more control and we tend to win in the mid/late game...it is just another concept!

[Lemnear]

a good point in favor to grim lavamancer is also the great synergy between it and snap! :cool:

about delver of secrets: I don't think this is the right deck...we are more control and we tend to win in the mid/late game...it is just another concept!

I Hope this is irony. Lavamancer is terrible with snapcaster ... Both remove your graveyard and each Time you remove a StoP and a fetch to Ping 2 damage and topdeck a snapcaster the turn after you'll curse yourself for running both

[Setherial]

I think running 2 Grim Lavamancer and 4 Snap is fine. You don't remove Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares unless it will otherwise cost you the game. You also use Grim mostly to shoot down creatures rather then as an extra clock (unless it's to close the deal). What use is fetchland to us in the yard and if we can use that to shoot down delvers, Cliques, Qasali Pride Mages and Hierarchs, yes thank you.


Went 3-2-1 this weekend with this list

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Plains
5 Island
1 Mountain

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Flusterstorm


Round 1: draw vs Team America. Won game 1 countering most of his plays including 2 Hymns. Lost game 2, I kept a hand with 2 duals and a wasteland, he had 2 wastelands, I didn't see any more land and got slaughtered fast.
Game 3 we went into time. in turn 5 of time, I boosted my clique with elspeth, equiped batterskull for an all or nothing kill and he had apparently topdecked Ghastly demise and killed it in response.

0-0-1

Round 2: 2-1 vs the Rock: I kill him easily game one with snapcaster beatings and countering most of his plays. He vindicates my lands a lot, I don't mind.
Game 2 I loose to Choke. Game 3 on the draw I clique him end of his draw step and remove the choke he is holding. I win.

1-0-1

Round 3: 0-2 loss against GWr Punishing Maverick: This guy ends up winning the tournament. First game takes maybe 40 minutes. I kept playing because I could still win if I drew into Jace and I figured I had a better chance of winning game 1 then the remaining games where I would be fighting choke. I didn't see Jace and lost. Game 2 I extract his punishing Fire and his choke and he kills me with Thrun. This round was mostly bad luck game 1 as I could have won on Jace if I had just drawn into him in one of the 100 rounds this game took.

1-1-1

Round 4: 2-1 win vs UWR Tempo: Interesting match. At first I thought it was a mirror match but then he played Delver and Lightning Bolt and Stifle. I lost Game 2 to wasteland on my duals and not seeing any more land before his turn 1 delver killed me. I won game 3 in round 5 of time. Real fun match, really close, awesome opponent.

2-1-1

Round 5: 2-1 win vs TES: Game one I beat him pretty low on life and I'm at 29 life myself. Thanks to that new Yawgmoths will he is able to cast enough spells to finish me.
Game 2 I side in flusterstorm and blasts. He for some reason plays Cabal Therapy against me. I counter his therapy. Beat him for a while. He goes of and I wait until he casts his last card (tutor) and flusterstorm.
Game 3 he cabal therapies me again, I counter with flusterstorm. he waits two turns and sees anoth cabal therapy which I permit. He names 'spell snare' and I reaveal a hand with counterspell and 2 force. He looses.

3-1-1

Round 6: 0-2 loss vs Combo Elves: I counter Glimpse and waste Cradle. He still wins turn 3 or 4 on multiple Green Sun's Zeniths. Game 2 I side in wrath and Engineered. I again counter glimpse and he goes to an aggro plan, he's low on cards. He beats me to 4 life turn 3. Turn 4 I wrath of God and sweep the board. He takes back one elf with Simbiote. Turn 4 he apparently topdecked Gaddock Teeg and my second wrath end engineered plague are dead. I loose.
This is an aweful matchup for us it seems. Maybe it's me but with what I was running I did not stand much of a chance stopping him.

3-2-1

Fun tournament. All things concidered. Really awesome opponents all day long. Had a nice chat with all of them during each match and afterwards through the course of the day.
It was the first time I tried out Elspeth and I really liked the 2 Elspeth/3 Jace package. I also liked having Jitte. I ran 4 Jace the week before, an extra counterspell and Shackles and I liked my list a lot better as it was now. My only regret was not having access to 2 path to exile in side.

[SupREME-10]

@Setherial; Well done, and nice list. I gotta agree with Lemnear about running Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster together (especially when they are now 50% or more of your creature base). Setherial did it nicely with the REB's although I would love to see a Bolt hit someones first Goyf and then have Surgical Extraaction remove the rest from his arsenal. Honeslty though, I like StoP and PtoE more than Bolt and I think that I will be staying to U/W for now at least. I might go with a red splash later on; but I think that would mostly be for the REB's. (need to get Volcanic Islands first anyway)

As for the Delver of Secrets, well I basically swapped him for my Spellstutter Sprite package (Mishra's factory took the place of Mutavault). And it sure does alter the decks momentum from the control style more over to aggro/control with a shift to more early game presure. So far the 4x Brainstorm (+4x Snapcaster Mage) has been enough to get the Delver to flip regularly (only did about 12 tests though). And this might sound weird; but the deck actually does run some 18 potential targets for him (1/3-ish) so I don't understand why he is disliked so much. The Riptide laboraatory has even been used with the Delver of Secrets, as some opponents want to target him as you check your top-card, thus you can simply bounce him back to hand to gain some card advantage by pulling their removal. Anyway, with only some testing done I agree that he needs a lot more extensive research to be deemed worthy of the deck; but I don't own a 3rd Vendilion Clique (working on it) so I thought that I would try different things out.

Thanks again for the discussion, it does help and I do appreciate it.

[Setherial]

Thanks man, not that 3-2-1 is anywhere near a good result but like I said it was a great day.

What I miss most when playing this list is a fast clock. Stoneforge Mystic-Batterskull is really slow and combo decks like Hivemind when piloted well still kill you if they have enough rounds to pile up on counterspells.
We just can't match a turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Clique killer type of opening like Bant has. If they can stick Jace turn 3 with certainty from what they saw with Clique it's most likely game over for us if they start brainstorming every turn.

Delvers might be a solution but I don't want to tap out turn 1 for a Delver if I have Spell Snare and I'm on the draw. I also dislike the idea of a mid game delver. Clique is so much better. Running both Delvers and Swords to Plowshares also doesn't feel 100%.
I'd rather make room for 2 Grim then for 4 Delvers. A mid game Grim is nice and early game I usually don't want to tap out.

[anwei]

Have those critiquing lavamancer actually tested it?
I'm about to start, but am inclined to agree with Setherial that 6 creatures using your yard can share fine if lavamancer isn't shocking to the dome all game (but again, want actual results to consider).

[Koby]

If you're using Grim Lavamancer so aggressively that you remove 1cc instants from your yard, you're probably about to win. Using Grim Lavamancer to remove Bolt/StP when you have access and mana to Snapcaster the same card to kill a creature is just dumb too.

Perhaps this isn't the best deck for Grim Lavamancer (better suited for Tempo versions of UW/r), but in terms of controlling aggro decks, Grim Lavamancer does it better than SCM+1cc removal.

[Cotes16]

I Hope this is irony.

it was..
again I think that delver is not the right card in this deck...you do not want to make a race...you want to stall the game and then win with jace and/or SFM...

[Ernie11235]

What does Red really add to UW that UW can't do already? Grim Lavamancer is good but is it SO good that you are going to weaken your mana base, make yourself susceptible to Wasteland? Turn 1 fetch land into Volcanic Island to play Grim Lavamancer seems good until they Wasteland your Volcanic. Now you can't even pay for the Lavamancer's ability. Now you have to fetch another Volcanic instead of the white mana source you actually need to cast the Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares or other white card you have in your hand. Adding Red for Lavamancer just doesn't seem powerful enough to justify it. I could see playing two Volcanic Islands to splash Pyroblast in your sideboard, but Grim Lavamancer? Not for me.

[Koby]

Against Delver (tempo) and anti-Tempo (Maverick, et al) decks, I think that Grim Lavamancer is reasonable enough to run. The manabase can be built for consistency in the face of Stile/Wasteland, but yes I would agree that REB/Pyro alone are not reason enough to put Red into the UW shell.

Interestingly enough, adding basic mountain improves the green (Choke) matchups by having more access to non-Island mana. Pyroclasm also rapes the shit out of Maverick which frees up StP to deal with their real threat: KotR.

[Frid]

Obviously if you're playing red it is because of red elemental blast in the sb, not because of grim lavamancer, firespout or whatever (which are, on the other side, very reasonable cards to play in addition to). And the mountain is very important as nowadays every single deck plays wastelands, even heavy control builds.
Anyway, for six or less rounds tournaments I personally would opt for my UW version, and in bigger tournaments for the UWr one. Simple metagame choice, it's easier to face more controllish decks in bigger tournaments than in small ones, where people use to be more aggresive. At least that's what my experience tells me.

[chags]

I play red primarily for the blasts but love teh 3 bolts main. I tried lavamancer and found him to be lackluster, bolt is better in an open meta. That being said if I thought I was going to face loads of goblins/fish/gw I'd probably run some lavamancers in place of some of the bolts. 4 stp is absolute necessity.

As for my personal list I run 24 lands because I run 3 wastelands and 3 mishras to support my standstills. If I ran less wastelands then the mana could be cut to 22ish. Standstill is very good against the 3 color decks and has been doing great for me given the current meta.

[ivanpei]

I used to run Grims before the printing of Snapcaster. Right now, I think 5-6 is the MAX number of grave using creatures this deck should run. For me, it's either 4 Snapcaster, 2 Path, 4 STP, OR 3 Grim, 3 Snapcaster, 4 STP. Also, if you are running Grims and Snaps, play more fetches. 9 is a good number for me, it helps when you are mostly munching fetches with Grim. This of course makes your deck weaker to RUG Delver because Stifles and Wastelands will wreck you.

Grim's are a godsend against Maverick though. They can really control the board by killing moms, heirarchs and SFMs.

[TkDodo]

I've been playing with a redsplash from the beginning, and I really love it. I think 6 maindeck removals are neccessary, so this could be either 4 StoP and 2 Grims, or, in my case, 4 StoP and 2 Bolts, since they are better usable with Snapcaster. I know, if you get a Grim to stick for so long that you remove spells which you could snapcast, you are almost always winning anyway, so it doesn't matter. I just like the fact that bolt can handle important creatures immediately, before they become active (like bobs or mothers for instance), which grim can't. Also, like posted before, I don't like fetching for Volcanic in T1. It makes you very vulnerable. Mancer also only gets active T2 if you play him T1 and have two fetches in your hand (or you waste a Brainstorm, which is very bad).
As for the mana base, I am very happy with 2 Volanics and 1 Mountain (alongside 8 fetches, 4 or them being able to fetch the basic Mountain). The Mountain is really that neccessary, because in the games where you want your red mana, especially postboard (the mirror, merfolk), you don't want your red source to be wasted. Grim maindeck probably needs more red sources, as he needs them continuously.

[ivanpei]

Anyway, I'd like to revisit the great SOBM vs SOFF debate. Some history on this, I used primarily SOBM during the pre Snapcaster, Mental Misstep days because it was serious gas and the deck only had Stoneforge and Jace back then. After Mental Misstep was banned and Snapcaster was printed, immediately it struck me that the deck needed more Speed/Tempo since losing Misstep really hurt the deck's early game and Snapcaster is pretty mana intensive.

I switched to SOFF and never though twice about it until recently. I started noticing that even though I land the SOFF, I was still losing games. The first trigger usually involves some average to sick follow ups. Some times you get to swing, untap and drop Jace/have counter mana up. However most of the time, I usually have an empty hand, the opponent also has an empty hand/discards bricks. I simply wasn't closing out games with SOFF while when I was running SOBM, I was trampling over the opponent with a flood of wolves.

I realised that Legacy is not standard. The critical turns are much earlier in this format. By turns 3-4 most hands are already exhausted. And in 90% of the situations, the first target SFM looks for is Batterskull. It's only during turns 5-6 when you draw the 2nd SFM etc do you really look for the Sword. I've recently switched back and SOBM was the gas equipment I've been looking for. Swinging on Turn 5 with a SOFF is very meh... while with a SOBM, if you connect, you get immediate board presence.

Obviously SOFI is better in a vacumm but SOBM has better protection colours. The pro green is self explanatory while the pro blue is currently undervalued. IMO pro blue > pro black right now as blue creatures are way more common than black ones at the moment. Also as I have argued on another thread, most removal is instant speed and the creature you are equipping will most likely die to removal in response to equip. SOBM makes wolves so that in itself is somewhat protection from topdecked removal.

Cliques, Snapcaster, Delvers and Jace are in 70% of decks you are likely to face. That is way more than Tombstalkers and Bobs (I don't think bob qualifies as a combat creature). The only upside is that pro black is actually extremely strong in the mirror against other batterskulls. Pro blue IMO is way more relevant, as blue creatures are everywhere and Jace bouncing is a legit threat.

Thoughts?

[Thorondor]

well the blue protection is really awesome in many places. So SOBM can be great but same is for SOFI, if one of those connects you are in a great shape and mostly win. At least that's what I expirienced.

But it is kind of the same for SOFF and most of the time I have something to do with the mana, equip on another untaped dude, cast jace and it is just awesome vs combo or control, being sure your opponent have to discard one card and probably cannot counter afterwards ist just great. Also having protection against goyfs/knights and dismamber is one reason I still run SOFF main and one sword in sb which is mostly SOFI which is awesome against RUG.

That being said there is no room for SOBM you run SOFI or SOBM not both.

Keep in mind there are so many ways how to use your mana in U/W control:

counterspells
manlands
snapcaster
riptide for snapcaster
and again counterspells




Obviously SOFI is better in a vacumm but SOBM has better protection colours. The pro green is self explanatory while the pro blue is currently undervalued. IMO pro blue > pro black right now as blue creatures are way more common than black ones at the moment. Also as I have argued on another thread, most removal is instant speed and the creature you are equipping will most likely die to removal in response to equip. SOBM makes wolves so that in itself is somewhat protection from topdecked removal.
Thoughts?

You can't just argue that your creatures get killed in response to equip and then saying that connection with SOBM is good protection for that you need to equip first. And I don't see that it is easier to connect with SOBM than with SOFF.

[ivanpei]

Unfortunately sofi has no pro-tarmogoyf/kotr. If you can connect with it, it's madness but unfortunately the number of evasive creatures this deck can run is quite limited. If you play sprites and cliques, I'd say go for it since you may be able to connect more often. If you also see tribal alot, sofi is the best sword for that match up.

Right now in a pro green vs pro green fight, I'm picking sobm.

[SupREME-10]

I have tried Umezawa's Jitte and SoBM (one or the other) in my Sideboard and both have their ++ vs the other. But I am still finding that SoFI and Batterskull mainboard are the way to go in my meta (after I switched back to Sprites from Delver, but that is a different topic).

I love the Jitte for it's versatility; but also as you can get the counters on it even if you don't hit all the way home. No, it is not perfect; but so far I have it at a pretty even race with SoBM. Oh and I do like the SoFF for standard; but as mentioned, it is near useless when both parties are in top-deck mode while landing more board presence can turn into a win-con on it's own.

Good point for you to bring up ivanpei, as I do see plenty of people putting down the SoBM without really investigating it's potential vs game relavance to the othe swords.

[slikwilly]

Personally I'm sticking with SoBM + Batterskull. The sword is good vs Tarmo, Reliquary, Jace, flashed Cliques + Snapcasters. Plus the token leaves a blocker up. I currently run Jitte in my board, but I did run all three equips main for a while. But there's just so much blue out there that having either SoFI or SoBM makes too much sense and I'd rather have pro-green than pro-red.

[planeswalkerzen]

So there's a legacy tournament tomorrow at my local store and I am going to play my first event with Stoneblade! Here is my list:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile

4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Purify the Grave
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Card reasonings:
No Spellstutter Sprites: I don't like them at all as against creature decks I rather another removal (Path to Exile) and against RUG and combo etc I rather another Vendilion Clique (3rd Clique).
No Flooded Strands-They're still coming in the mail so replaced with 3 blue fetches and 1 white fetch (Should I make it 2/2 split)?
Spell Pierce-Counters Liliana of the Veil and Jace which seems really crucial. Also better against more of a broader field.
Graveyard hate-I'm not sure which is best between Purify the Grave/Surgical Extraction/Tormod's Crypt. I know there will be at least 1 dredge and 1 reanimator. I feel like Surgical Extraction is the best (removing all Golgari Grave Trolls etc) but all the pros seem to play Purify so I'm doing a 2/1 split.

Thoughts on the list?

Cheers,
Zen

[SupREME-10]

Nice looking list actually, let us know how it goes for you with a little synopsis if you can.

[ivanpei]

Graveyard hate-I'm not sure which is best between Purify the Grave/Surgical Extraction/Tormod's Crypt. I know there will be at least 1 dredge and 1 reanimator. I feel like Surgical Extraction is the best (removing all Golgari Grave Trolls etc) but all the pros seem to play Purify so I'm doing a 2/1 split.

There is a reason why pros play purify, because it is insane vs Reanimator. You get 2 uses out of it which is much better than Tormod's or Surgical since you can respond to their reanimation spell TWICE with it.

However, Tormod's crypt is much better against dredge because it takes out their entire yard, bridges/trolls/dread returns/Ichorids all gone. Against dredge, Purify is next to useless because it get's rid of 1/2 cards while the dredge player can just continue dredging and kill you.

Surgicals on the other hand is the jack of all trades. It is not bad against reanimator, also so-so vs Dredge. It's better than Purify vs dredge but worse than purify against Reanimator. On the plus side, it also hurts decks with an over dependance on one card such as combo decks (hive mind/show and tell/cabal ritual/rite of flame/ill gotten gains). It is also useful against non graveyard based combo decks because it actually does something compared to a STP for example which is totally dead. You can use it to check an opponent's hand for free, to make sure if you should tap out for Jace or not. Or you could use it to shuffle up your opponent's library to mess up a tutor like Enlightened, Lim Dul's Vault or Personal Tutor. Surgical is the most versatile.

I play a 2/2 Surgical-Tormod's crypt split. Splitting up your hate makes it much harder for opponents to prepare for your hate. Purify is also good if the meta is overloaded with Reanimator, otherwise, the other options are more powerful (Crypt) or more flexible (Surgical). Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[Vandalize]

There is a reason why pros play purify, because it is insane vs Reanimator. You get 2 uses out of it which is much better than Tormod's or Surgical since you can respond to their reanimation spell TWICE with it.

However, Tormod's crypt is much better against dredge because it takes out their entire yard, bridges/trolls/dread returns/Ichorids all gone. Against dredge, Purify is next to useless because it get's rid of 1/2 cards while the dredge player can just continue dredging and kill you.

Surgicals on the other hand is the jack of all trades. It is not bad against reanimator, also so-so vs Dredge. It's better than Purify vs dredge but worse than purify against Reanimator. On the plus side, it also hurts decks with an over dependance on one card such as combo decks (hive mind/show and tell/cabal ritual/rite of flame/ill gotten gains). It is also useful against non graveyard based combo decks because it actually does something compared to a STP for example which is totally dead. You can use it to check an opponent's hand for free, to make sure if you should tap out for Jace or not. Or you could use it to shuffle up your opponent's library to mess up a tutor like Enlightened, Lim Dul's Vault or Personal Tutor. Surgical is the most versatile.

I play a 2/2 Surgical-Tormod's crypt split. Splitting up your hate makes it much harder for opponents to prepare for your hate. Purify is also good if the meta is overloaded with Reanimator, otherwise, the other options are more powerful (Crypt) or more flexible (Surgical). Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Double Surgical Extraction just fucks up Dredge (as a veteran dredge pilot, I must say that it only seconds Leyline of the Void in terms of crippling the deck). And that's a pretty easy thing to cast with Snapcaster Mage. Just saying...

[dan who?]

I played a small 14 person legacy event today. The last event got over 40 people (which I didn't make it to =( ) but they didn't advertise as well so that kinda sucked but I did go 3-1 and top 4 split with Frid's exact list he shipped me a while ago, red splash and all. I beat dredge round 1, pyromancer's ascension home brew (it was definitely an interesting deck) round 2, lost to aggro loam round 3 in 3 very close games. He was never able to keep a creature down but I couldn't counter or get rid of a seismic assault. I never saw a surgical game 3 but would have been able to pull through if I could have extracted his loams early or saw another explosives (had to blow 1st explosives for 0 to get rid of a chalice). I'm sure I miss played and should have kept something for it but I haven't tested the match-up in a long time and I definitely felt like I needed to get rid of his other stuff throughout the match. I beat the sudo-mirror round 4 (he had red for lightning bolt and explosives but no blasts....). I brought blasts in but didn't see them (and my hands were really redic that I didn't need them) but they would have been amazing and I'm def glad I had them as there was a ton of blue there (and throughout my metas).

I can write a little more detailed report if anyone wants to read it but it wasn't as big of a turn out as I hoped so I won't waste your time otherwise. The dredge games were definitely interesting as were most of the other matches.

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey guys so today I attended a legacy event at my local store and played this deck for the first time. We had 17 people in attendance as we battled for a free Jace, TMS(Legacy isn't very popular in New Zealand but it has become much popular compared to a year or so back when we were unable to even get 8 players. Over the last year alot of people have got into legacy due to the SCG results and the stable investments into duals etc, myself included. The local store I play in is kind enough to run free legacy events every 2 weeks with prizes such as Jace, Tarmogoyf, playset of foil mental misstep etc).

Anyway this is the list I ran, pretty much the same as one I posted last night:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile

4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Purify the Grave
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

The only changes I made were cutting the Surgical Extraction for Purify the Grave in SB. There was no dredge and 1 or 2 Reanimator players so I opted for the 3rd Purify. I also managed to borrow 3 Flooded Strands from my friend to replace the other blue fetchlands I was using temporarily until they arrived (legacy staples are very hard to find locally from shops here).

Round 1: Bant Maverick/Stoneblade
Game 1:
He tries to resolve some Stoneforges and Knights but they all meet counterspells and/or swords. I then Wasteland his 3rd land and resolve a Stoneforge Mystic. I then drop down the Batterskull and eventually land some Vendilion Cliques and a Jace to lock down the game.

+3 Path to Exile
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Disenchant
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-2 Vendilion Clique
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will

Game 2:
I mull to 6 keeping a land with Tundra, Brainstorm, Stoneforge and 3 other spells (dont remember). I brainstorm for a 2nd land but instead draw into more spells. Eventually after 4 Brainstorms I get to 3 lands but he already has a Elspeth, Sword of Fire and Ice and Clique in play. I try hard to come back (using a bunch of Swords and buying back with Snapcaster) but eventually can't keep up with the tokens being made.
Game 3:
I mull to 6 keeping a hand with Karakas, 2 Stoneforge, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and Elsepth on the play. I don't see a 2nd land for a few turns and don't draw any counterspells either as he lands a Jace. Eventually he manages to use his ultimate and I draw out my deck on Turn 4 of Time.

1-2
0-1
I felt pretty disappointed with myself with not mulliganing in game 3. However, I felt pretty good on my general play, especially in game 2 when I nearly managed to come back. Although just before round 2 started the store owner announced that there will be no cut to Top4/8 as usual as they had to close early. This meant there was no chance of winning the Jace unless you X-0 or something happens (bunch of draws) and you may get there with X-0-1 or X-0 if you tiebreaks are good, which they're normally not when you lose round 1 :P

Round 2: Zoo
Game 1:
I see no lands in both my opening 7 nor the 6 I mull to. Eventually I keep Riptide Labotary, 2 Snapcaster Mage, Spell Snare, Swords to Plowshares on the play. I lead with Riptide Labotary and don't see another land colored land until turn 4. By this stage I was pretty much dead even if I swords one of his guys as I faced a bunch of creatures. I ended up dying with 3 Swords to Plowshares and 2 Snapcaster Mage in hand. -.-

I sideboard:
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Wrath of God
+1 Disenchant (I knew he played Stoneforge Mystic and Sylvan Library as this guy plays Zoo every event)
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Elsepth, Knight-Errant
-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
-1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2:
I Swords his turn 1 Nacatal and turn 2 Tarmogoyf then land a Stoneforge Mystic on turn 3 with Spell Snare and Path to Exile back up for a dude and/or Lightning Helix on my guy. My Stoneforge Mystic sees no removal and Batterskull goes to town.
Game 3:
He keeps a slow hand with bunch of burn and 2 Sylvan Library. Both his Sylvan Libraries meet a Spell Snare as I land a turn 4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. He tries to burn off the Elspeth on his turn but I force one of the burn spells to keep it alive. He eventually casts a Qasali Pridemage and Knight which met a Wrath of God. Eventually I draw a Sword of Feast and Famine and get there with my little tokens.

2-1
1-1
I'm really not sure if I sideboarded properly this game. It was my first time playing this deck so this was off rough thoughts. There were so many good cards I wanted to board in but I was unsure what to board out.

Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: I just drew all the right cards. I played a bunch of Swords which I bought back with Snapcaster, my Stoneforge Mystic didn't die etc.

I sideboarded the same way as the other zoo deck.

Game 2: He started with 2 Goblin Guides and a Kird Ape and it seemed bad for me. My Stoneforge Mystic also met a removal spell as I fetched a Batterskull. Luckily 2 Swords and a Snapcaster slowed him down but I was on dangerously low life. Eventually I hardcast the Batterskull on turn 6 and stabalized on 1 life as I crached a fetchland to Spell Snare the Lightning Helix. From there I kept bashing with Batterskull attached with an Jitte and when he did draw a Qasali Pridemage, it met a counterspell.

2-0
2-1
Needless to say, I feel really good about Zoo postboard. Even though I probably sideboarded wrong, every card in my deck seems likes an answer to their thing and eventually I will get there on CA through Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm and Stoneforge Mystic.

Round 4: Reanimator
Game 1: I keep a hand of 3 lands, Vendilion Clique, Jace, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares. He leads with a turn 1 Careful Study which I let it through as he discards a land and Jin Gitaxis. I draw a Spell Snare as I cast a land and pass. He casts a turn 2 Reanimate Dead which I Force which then gets countered by his own copy of Force. As he lands a Jin Gitaxis, I try to swords it but is met by a Daze as he draws 7 cards at end of his turn. I draw, play a land, cast a Clique which gets Dazed and discard my whole hand. He ends up beating me to death with the Jin Gitaxis.

Sideboard:
+3 Spell Pierce
+3 Purify the Grave
+2 Path to Exile
-4 Stoneforge Mystic
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-1 Batterskull
Game 2: I just draw all the right spells. I drew some Spell Pierces, Counterspells, 2 Snapcaster Mages to rebuy them. I also drew Purify the Grave which was amazing. I end up just beating down with Vendilion Clique and Snapcasters.
Game 3: I have Force of Wills to keep him locked. I end up Purify the Grave away his Angel of Despair and Emperial Archangel as I land a Karakas which keeps his 2 only other targets in grave, Iona and Jin Gitaxis, in check. He tried to Show and Tell a couple of times but they were all met with a counterspell. I end up beating down with a Vendilion Clique which I bought back with Karakas every turn to make sure he doesn't do anything.

2-1
3-1
I felt like I played tight and very well this round. I think taking out the Stoneforge Mystic plan was by far the correct choice, as trying to land one just creates an opening for him as that means I have one less answer. Purify the Grave was amazing and it really showed why pros have been playing it over other GY hate. It also gets through Duress, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy etc. Coming into this round, there was only one player at 4-0 and 6 players at 3-1. We worked out whoever gets paired up to the 4-0 guy can definitely win the event of he beats the 4-0 player due to tiebreaks. However I ended up not being the guy who got paired up, and instead the guy that got paired down to the 2-2 player.

Round 5: Junk
Game 1: He wastelands my 2 Tundras and I get stuck on 2 Island and a Mishra's Factory as Swords, Counterspells and Jace sits in my hand. Eventually he lands a Dark Confidant and Sensei's Divining Top as he draws into all the answers and by the time I see a Tundra, his board position was too good to beat.

Sideboard:
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Wrath of God
+1 Disenchant
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-3 Force of Will (Hymms)
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Counterspell
-1 Vendilion Clique

Game 2: I Sword his Turn 2 Confidant and bring it back with Snapcaster Mage to kill his turn 3 Knight. I land a Jace and draw a bunch of spells from it and end up countering/removing all his guys and get there with Snapcaster Mage and Batterskull
Game 3: He Hymms me on Turn 2 and 3 as I draw no counterspells. On turn 4 I cast a Vendlion Clique and see Stoneforge, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Thrun and Swords to Plowshares with 3 lands in play. INSANE hand! My hand consisted of Batterskull and Jace and I had 3 lands in play. I end up taking the Thoughtseize. I'm not sure if this was the correct play. If he Thoughtseize's me and takes my Jace, then I need to draw 2 lands in a row to land a Batterskull, my only action. However if I let him draw a land then the Thrun would be devastating. I ended up taking the Thoughtseize, and he drew a land off it and cast a Thrun. The following turn he drew another land as he cast Stoneforge and Goyf and Swords'd my Clique. My only way out of this was a Wrath of God which I didn't get to topdecek :P

So overall a 3-2 performance. I felt like I made some mistakes with mulliganing and maybe some sideboarding choices (what do you guys think? What would you have done differently? All help appreciated!). However, the deck was very fun and felt like my first proper legacy deck (The only decks I owned before was Affinity and a High Tide deck with no Candelabras. I'm only 14 so I don't have a big budget but I recently sold most of my standard cards to get legacy staples as I have enough sources to borrow everything for standard anyway and wanted to spend my money better). So what are your thoughts, especially concerning the sideboarding and also the Clique play against Junk. The next legacy event won't be for a while as the next 2nd Sunday is Christmas Day so I'll have some time to tweak and test before then.

Cheers,
Zen

[ivanpei]

I noticed you sided out Jace quite often, especially when you sided out all of them vs zoo. Generally I don't recommend this as Jace is one of the best cards in the deck. I still keep in 2-3 copies of Jace against Zoo because you still need the gas to edge them. I also recommend boarding out the Stoneblade Package + Cliques against Zoo AND Junk. This totally blanks their removal package. You basically warp into pure UW control. I don't expect Snapcaster/Factories to get there by themselves, but that's what the SB Elspeth (I also play Crucible in the board) are for.

Decks like Zoo and Junk pack so much removal that you can never stick a SFM and drop batterskull. Everything you try to equip will also get fried. In this case, I much prefer to board into a heavy control role, kill/counter everything and win with Jace/Elspeth/Crucible + Waste/Factories. If you suspect they might board out removal G3 (usually shown by a ton of grunting and SB-ing furiously), you might want to shuffle your SB back in and make a show of boarding your SFMs back (though I still would play without SFMs). I also play 3 Wraths in the board because that card makes this strategy very potent. Here's my board:

2 Surgical
2 Tormod's
3 Wrath (No paths, because i already MD 2)
4 Spell Pierce (this deck is really soft to combo with just 10 MD counters)
1 Crucible
1 Elspeth
2 Disenchant/Oring (Disenchant in an open meta, Oring if I see plenty of Emrakuls and Stoneblade)

Good luck, you will get better the more you play. Also it helps to read around Mtgthesource a little more, especially in the DTB section. You have an edge when you know how to run your opponent's deck (thus, how to beat it as well) better than your opponent.

[planeswalkerzen]

@Ivanpei-Thanks for the help man! Yeah I never really thought about taking out the package as Batterskull and Jitte is so good against Zoo and Junk but I'm going to test this soon.

[RJM]

You know what's really good against removal heavy lists? Geist of Saint Traft. Seriously.

I've been testing him as a 2x instead of a couple Cliques and it's been really good. He carries your swords like a boss, and if you ever have Geist & Elspeth in play... Well, those games end quickly.

I think he's a serious legacy playable, and in this deck especially. I have no idea why he hasn't started to catch on yet. UR and RUG Delver lists literally have no answer to him either once he sticks, and those decks are everywhere right now.

[biggerliz]

Aside from tempo decks, and aggro decks, i basically toss in a sensei's divining top into any deck i play.

does anybody else? it's basically your 5th brainstorm, a worse turn 1-2 ponder, but always an awesome top deck. i have never not wanted it in my hand, i don't get clogged, and basically it is amazing. i'm curious if anybody has tested this before and how come i don't see more of it.

it is way better than the 4th jace.

[klaus]

Aside from tempo decks, and aggro decks, i basically toss in a sensei's divining top into any deck i play.

does anybody else? it's basically your 5th brainstorm, a worse turn 1-2 ponder, but always an awesome top deck. i have never not wanted it in my hand, i don't get clogged, and basically it is amazing. i'm curious if anybody has tested this before and how come i don't see more of it.

it is way better than the 4th jace.

I stick with 3 Jaces myself. And I like a lone Ponder much better in this slot - it's "flashbackable" with Snapper and much stronger turn 1-4 actually and that's exactly when most games are decided. Top might be one of the best late-game topdecks out there, but that's when UW-Blade Control shines anyway, making it a win more kinda thang.

[ivanpei]

3 Stoneblades in the SCG Invitational Top 16 and grats to Tony Chu for going all the way to take it down. Looks like this deck will continue bing a force for a long time. It's balanced against everything and just a good jack of all trades deck. I will continue running this deck as my 1st choice in any legacy Tourney.

[Artlee]

3 Stoneblades in the SCG Invitational Top 16 and grats to Tony Chu for going all the way to take it down. Looks like this deck will continue bing a force for a long time. It's balanced against everything and just a good jack of all trades deck. I will continue running this deck as my 1st choice in any legacy Tourney.

Agreed. The 4 Leylines in the side are quite aggressive though.

[OneWingedAngel]

Agreed. The 4 Leylines in the side are quite aggressive though.

Isn't it quite risky to mull for the Leylines being the only GY hate in the deck?

[klaus]

Isn't it quite risky to mull for the Leylines being the only GY hate in the deck?

+1
-
For Snappy.dec there's no better gy hate alternative for S.EXtraction.

[OneWingedAngel]

I normally use a combination of Purify the grave and Relic/Tormods. Usually a 3/2 Split. Somehow, I find that Purify is not enough to contain Dredge most of the time and it's a very common deck here in our meta. The trend here is that most players here lean on dredge and Reanimator as entry level decks for the Legacy format.

[miko]

I really like the idea of playing Leyline even though it might be pretty greedy. Nobody expects Leyline and sometimes decks do not have any outs...
In my Thresh build i recently switched to Leylines...

[Artlee]

Isn't it quite risky to mull for the Leylines being the only GY hate in the deck?

exactly that's my point.


I really like the idea of playing Leyline even though it might be pretty greedy. Nobody expects Leyline and sometimes decks do not have any outs...
In my Thresh build i recently switched to Leylines...

You MIGHT snatch game 2 vs Dredge, but some decks use Nature's Claim, and if you've just mulled to 4/5 to get Leyline, you are probably not able to protect it and therefore proper fuc*ed. Not to mention that this is a totally dead card outside of opening hands.

[ivanpei]

There is no reason to board in leylines against dredge and mulling for them is very dangerous since chain/claim will wreck you. Also dredge slows down to a crawl against blue postboard. I play dredge myself and I usually board out breakthroughs against slower blue decks, as DDD (draw discard dredge) is the preferable strategy. If dredge is taking their sweet time to kill you. You should also take your sweet time to draw the hate.

[Water_Wizard]

I thought FOW was supposed to come out against agressive decks like zoo? In reading the SCG Invitational report, I noticed both of the UW pilots who face Zoo in the Semi's and Final left FOW in their deck.

Shouldn't sideboarding (using Tony Chu's list) against zoo or merfolk be:
+3 Path
+1 Jitte
+1 Elspeth
+1 WOG
-4 FOW
-2 Jace
? I thought the secret to beating zoo was card advantage and FOW is card disadvantage.

Against Maverick I would do something similar, but it gets a little trickier because of Choke. What's everyone's sb plan against Maverick?

[Setherial]

I thought FOW was supposed to come out against agressive decks like zoo? In reading the SCG Invitational report, I noticed both of the UW pilots who face Zoo in the Semi's and Final left FOW in their deck.

Shouldn't sideboarding (using Tony Chu's list) against zoo or merfolk be:
+3 Path
+1 Jitte
+1 Elspeth
+1 WOG
-4 FOW
-2 Jace
? I thought the secret to beating zoo was card advantage and FOW is card disadvantage.

Against Maverick I would do something similar, but it gets a little trickier because of Choke. What's everyone's sb plan against Maverick?

Going up against Zoo is pretty much the same as going up against Burn in terms of trying to buy time until you can cast batterskull and win. Force of Will buys you time and you need it in a fast race. Elspeth on the other hand is too slow. By the time you cast elspeth they'll have 3 creatures and stacked up on burn. Elspeth doesn't save you. Jace on the other hand is good, giving you a multitude of options. Zoo will run out of cards sooner or later and fateseal kills them with minimum risk to yourself as you keep them from drawing burn.

I would only side in the path to exiles (And in case of merfolk the Jitte as well)

Against Choke I like spell pierce, these decks also run GSZ and pierce stops both early game. Against Bant it also stops Jace. I started to run Spell Pierce main instead of Spell Snare, this is just a test, I don't know if it will pay off but it's pretty good so far.

[Artlee]

Using Tony Chu's list I would probably side this way against Maverick:

Out:
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spellstutter Sprite

In:
3 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wrath of God (I have swapped the 4 leylines for 1 wrath and 3 Surgical Extraction, so I board in 2 wrath)
2 Krosan Grip

What do you think? I am really not sure if I should take out the 2 sprites, as they can connect with Jitte. I thought of Spell snare instead, but some of their best cards against us (Gaddock, Scryb Ranger, Qasali Pridemage) cost 2, although they can just use Green Sun's Zenith.

[SupREME-10]

First off I send a big thanks out to planeswalkerzen for that great event synopsis. Congrats on going 3-2 overall as I only make 4-1 in my last event due mostly to poor draws and having to Mull down to 5 cards in almost every second game (can't keep 1 land hands without a Brainstorm to work it, etc).

In regard to the SB thing vs Maverick. I am online with Artlee; but as my list is slighted varied, so are my options.

4 Force of Will
3 Spellstutter Sprite (yes I actually run 3 maindeck)

In:
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant (I don't run any Green fo Krosan Grip)

[Koby]

Against Choke I like spell pierce, these decks also run GSZ and pierce stops both early game. Against Bant it also stops Jace. I started to run Spell Pierce main instead of Spell Snare, this is just a test, I don't know if it will pay off but it's pretty good so far.

I've also switched to maindeck Pierces. Mostly as a reaction to all the R/x burn decks, where Pierce shines, but it also catches GSZ, Jace, poorly timed Brainstorms, and flashback'd spells.

[KevinTrudeau]

I kind of have a rule of thumb concerning this sideboarding dilemma: if I'm bringing in Path to Exiles, it means I'm probably playing against a deck where Vendilion Clique isn't too advantageous. That's the first swap I usually make.

I understand the reasoning behind boarding out Force against aggressive decks, but I still don't. When played correctly, it can still be a very effective counter.

[Frid]

I can recall discussing this earlier, but I will leave my two cents again: Sideboarding out force of will may seem the "pro play", but in fact it's suboptimal 90% of the time: You NEED time to reach the late game against aggro decks, and force of will helps there, especially when you're running a weak sideboard against aggro like most people do with just a pair of wraths and a pair of path to exiles for second matches (personally still not understanding this as aggresive decks are the unfavourable matchups for us). It's just a question of common sence, if you're playing an UWr version, facing your second game against merfolk and sideboarding in like 4 red blasts, two explosives and two firespout it's reasonable to take out a pair of force of wills (a pair, not the four of them!), but if you're playing straight UW and just sideboarding in like 2 wraths and 2 path to exile (which, as said, would be a weak sb) it's absurd to sb out any copy of force of will.
Additionaly, in some circumstances you may need to stop for free cards that can beat you easily such as sylvan library or choke after an expensive spell like wrath or jace.

[Thorondor]

played against a typical bant list today. like this one: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7118&iddeck=51704

i sideboard out the complete mystic package:
-4 mystic
-1 batterskull
-1 SoFF
and
-2 spellstutter sprite

in:
+1 elspeth
+1 crucible of worlds
+2 wrath of god
+3 path to exile
+1 wasteland

felt really strong afterwards.
any thoughts?

[Artlee]

played against a typical bant list today. like this one: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7118&iddeck=51704

i sideboard out the complete mystic package:
-4 mystic
-1 batterskull
-1 SoFF
and
-2 spellstutter sprite

in:
+1 elspeth
+1 crucible of worlds
+2 wrath of god
+3 path to exile
+1 wasteland

felt really strong afterwards.
any thoughts?

I see the Bant deck only runs 2 basics, but I'm not sure if I would use Crucible. If your opponent starts with Noble Hierarch and perhaps later Knight of the Reliquary, he is in a good position to survive easily, I would mean.
I don't see Crucible as a good choice defensively either, as you are able to fetch for basics.

[dan who?]

There is no reason to board in leylines against dredge and mulling for them is very dangerous since chain/claim will wreck you. Also dredge slows down to a crawl against blue postboard. I play dredge myself and I usually board out breakthroughs against slower blue decks, as DDD (draw discard dredge) is the preferable strategy. If dredge is taking their sweet time to kill you. You should also take your sweet time to draw the hate.

Yeah, I run a 2/2 split between surgical extraction and relics. I played against dredge round 1 last Saturday and took game one by returning Batterskull to my hand to get rid of his 4 bridges (he had some pretty sick dredge's game one) and swords'd his huge troll to beat down for victory. I blew up 2 zombies early in game 2 with explosives so he couldn't Dread Return Iona as easily and won that game to take the match (I did have a Karakas for it as well) but I didn't draw any GY hate that round and was still able to win....so I don't see the point in going to extremes like leyline. I love Surgical Extraction and they are sweet little tech against the mirror and other control decks running snapcasters so I don't plan on removing them from my sideboard currently and relics are just nice generic graveyard hate that cantrips.

[klaus]

Here's my current list for reference. I'm trying to tune it towards an open meta, with a certain showing of mirrors & Maverick.dec
Crits are welcome.


4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Bolt

2 Jace the Mindsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory

SB:
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Path to Exile
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

[Waikiki]

I find 22 land too low for a deck like this. I want to be hitting landdrops for at least 5 turns. The general list im using right now:

I just started testing with + 2 mutavault + m10 dual + 2 spellstutter for -2 island -1 clique -1 counterspell -1 wasteland

// Lands
5 [PT] Island (3)
1 [PT] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ON] Riptide Laboratory
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [A] Tundra
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [M12] Glacial Fortress
2 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [A] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [A] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ISD] Purify the Grave

in the sb im not sure about purify vs extraction yet. extraction seems better against dredge where worse against reanimate.

[nyoro]

I can recall discussing this earlier, but I will leave my two cents again: Sideboarding out force of will may seem the "pro play", but in fact it's suboptimal 90% of the time: You NEED time to reach the late game against aggro decks, and force of will helps there, especially when you're running a weak sideboard against aggro like most people do with just a pair of wraths and a pair of path to exiles for second matches (personally still not understanding this as aggresive decks are the unfavourable matchups for us). It's just a question of common sence, if you're playing an UWr version, facing your second game against merfolk and sideboarding in like 4 red blasts, two explosives and two firespout it's reasonable to take out a pair of force of wills (a pair, not the four of them!), but if you're playing straight UW and just sideboarding in like 2 wraths and 2 path to exile (which, as said, would be a weak sb) it's absurd to sb out any copy of force of will.
Additionaly, in some circumstances you may need to stop for free cards that can beat you easily such as sylvan library or choke after an expensive spell like wrath or jace.

Except most uw sb got 3-4 paths + 2 wrath in the side. When you're playing 8 stp with 4 snapcaster mages, that's plenty of removals u would need to stablize into the late game. fowing a t1 nacatl is just plain bad. the only reason i can see keeping fow against zoo or maverick is if you want an out to choke, that's it. Any other threats we have answers through cheap removals or we can easily play around certain cards like price of progress.

[Dzra]

Two discussions I'd like to hear...

Purify the Grave VS Surgical Extraction

PtG
+ Can be flashbacked without wasting Taigo
+ Can survive hand disruption (both Dredge and Reanimator pack HD)
+ Can be used to clear multiple Reanimator targets

Surgical
+ 1-2 Surgicals can be crippling for Dredge
+ Costs no mana, so can be active on turn 0
+ Can be used outside of strictly GY-based decks (It isn't dead when a Punishing Fire deck doesn't draw their Punishing Fire)


Geist of Saint Traft
+ Hexproof
+ 1-2 swings will usually assassinate a Jace or Elspeth
+ When equipped is nearly unkillable
- Dies to Tarmogoyf, **Snapcaster Mage**, and Vendilion Clique
- Has pretty narrow usage

[anwei]

Surgical has other (obvious) advantages like allowing you to tap out, swiping deck/hand copies in usage, catching all gy copies at once to shut down their would-be redundancy, etc. and seems better unless you know you'll see lots of reanimator, etc.

When unopposed, Geist's introduction of a very-fast clock against combo is a big deal. Also, I think this was mentioned, but t3 Geist, t4 Elspeth -> pumped, swinging 9 in the air is significant..

[planeswalkerzen]

So here is my latest list and the decklist I'll probably be taking to my next Legacy event (like a month or so away). Here is the list:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Labotary
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

What do you guys think?

[klaus]

@ waikiki:
my list only features 2 cmc spells plus 2 ponders, pseudo replacing the 23rd land.
With your MD I'd also opt for 23 lands for sure though.

@ planeswalkerzen:
I like your list, but I really want at least 6 MD removal spells - PtE #2 seems "meh" though, which is why I'm splashing red (--> bolt)

[matunos]

A few questions:

1. For those of you with Crucible of Worlds in the SB... under what conditions do you swap that in, and what do you generally swap out for it?

2. I'm running 2 Engineered Explosives MD. Right now it's my only mass-destruction in my 75 (I am splashing red, so I do have 2 Lightning Bolts, but not currently running any Firespouts in SB). I find EE really useful, especially when facing threats in game 1 that I can't otherwise remove, like artifacts/enchantments, or a horde of 0-3cmc creatures. The fact that I can tailor the removal to work around my own guys if they're on the board is also useful (or, if I have to, I'll nuke them too). Is it worth including more mass removal like Wraths SB, and I'm curious why others haven't made the decision to run EE in the MB?

3. I haven't faced down control like TES, etc. yet. I'm just getting into the local tournament scene and while I haven't seen any storm decks yet, I've heard rumors of them. I've got 2 Flusterstorm and 2 Mindbreak Trap in my SB since these seemed like the best options. Too much? Unnecessary? I'd like to make room for other matchups if I can (maybe Wraths? maybe Firespout? maybe some Standstill if I decide to side out the Stoneblade package?).

[biggerliz]

For people how have done the path or tested extensively, does 23 lands really work?

relative to other 20-22 land count decks, we have a significant number of high-end spells, and unlike the other decks, we have no alternative acceleration pieces.

3x jace
1x elspeth

and we are extremely heavy at the 3 point curve. i have no doubt about the ability to get to three lands, but since we want at least 5 lands in play, then with 23 aren't we often getting stuck on 3.5 lands?

i feel like if you are running 23 lands, then often you are going to be missing a land drop, and your best play will be to run out a quick SFM.

[matunos]

For people how have done the path or tested extensively, does 23 lands really work?

relative to other 20-22 land count decks, we have a significant number of high-end spells, and unlike the other decks, we have no alternative acceleration pieces.

3x jace
1x elspeth

and we are extremely heavy at the 3 point curve. i have no doubt about the ability to get to three lands, but since we want at least 5 lands in play, then with 23 aren't we often getting stuck on 3.5 lands?

i feel like if you are running 23 lands, then often you are going to be missing a land drop, and your best play will be to run out a quick SFM.

I can't speak from experience playing 23 lands, but to give an indication of the probabilities (assuming I did my calculations correctly):

With 23 lands, you have a 42% chance of getting 5+ lands in your first 11 cards.
With 24 lands, you have a 53% chance.

Note that this isn't taking into account mulligans, fetching, or effects of brainstorms. Presumably taking into account mulligans would increase your odds slightly (because you're redrawing the really bad opening hands), brainstorm would also increase your odds, and fetching would lower your odds slightly due to filtering (but only very slightly).

So, I would say that's significant, especially considering that there are a number of lands that you don't really want to play in the first few turns (utilities, color splash, etc). I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable playing 23 lands with a color splash.

[klaus]

8 BS go a long way to find lands #4/5 (wink wink, Snappy).

Plus in my 23 land version I play a singleton Ponder (and no - it's not a random 1of, just cantrip #5)

[ivanpei]

I played 23 lands with 1 ponder for the longest time. No problems there (other than against something like RUG Tempo). I'm currently running 24 though. Never really flooded and always make my landdrops. It seems like the right number IMO. 23/24 lands isn't a big deal IMO.

And yes, 6 MD removal is a must. Either Path or Bolt is needed to stay afloat against Tempo/GW Maverick.

[klaus]

And yes, 6 MD removal is a must. Either Path or Bolt is needed to stay afloat against Tempo/GW Maverick.
+1

I'm currently having 7 MD spot removals and (despite snappy) still want more in many games..

[matunos]

8 BS go a long way to find lands #4/5 (wink wink, Snappy).


I have a feeling if you're using all your brainstorms and Snappies for finding land, you're doing it wrong. ;-)

[klaus]

I have a feeling if you're using all your brainstorms and Snappies for finding land, you're doing it wrong. ;-)

It's a "just in case thing".
Plus you're drawing business in the meantime..
We are talking about +/- 1 land...

[Rekk]

so i have a xmass eve legacy event coming up and thought i would ask for advice.

The main stay decks i'll probably see
Junk
B/w 2 drops (stoneforge bob bitter hymn)
Natural order bant
stacks
dredge
goblins
Reanimator
Storm
U/w control lists (alot of people in my area just refuse to play mystic though)
and someone new is always trying a u/b list (as in a few different people try this list)

So any maindeck and board recommendation for this meta
(this is probably not all of the decks)

[preddi]

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

[planeswalkerzen]

My updated list. Let me know what you think! :D

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Preordain
2 Counterspell
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Riptide Labotary
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[klaus]

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

It is an okay card. But since you mention a serious presence of Delver.dec, I assume Stifle makes it much worse than it used to be.

Also: this thread features a non-blade UWR approach that you might find interesting.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22801-Deck-UWR-Snapcaster-Control&p=609301#post609301

[matunos]

I like Engineered Explosives. I include it MD as it can rid me of any 0-3cmc problems (since I have a splash). I got out of a Trinisphere and Crucible prison with one recently. It's not a panacea, but unless you want to specialize with Wraths or go old-school with Disks (which I don't think anyone does this), there's not a lot of better options.

If I didn't have the 3rd color, I wouldn't run them, though.

[preddi]

matunos
I like Engineered Explosives. I include it MD as it can rid me of any 0-3cmc problems (since I have a splash). I got out of a Trinisphere and Crucible prison with one recently. It's not a panacea, but unless you want to specialize with Wraths or go old-school with Disks (which I don't think anyone does this), there's not a lot of better options.

If I didn't have the 3rd color, I wouldn't run them, though.

Sounds reasonable.
Stifleing explosives is an issue, but i think there are so many stifle targets in the deck already so this shouldn't be a reason to not run this card.
I think i will try this card out and see if it works or not. Often things look good or bad on paper, but in reality they will play out different.

[dan who?]

I've been thinking about the right number of MD removal spells. Here in Germany many people play decks like Maverick and delver and i think 4 swords are not enough. I really dislike path as a card so i want to try out engineered explosives (i play UWr version). What is the general opinion of this card? Sure you can't flash it back with snapcaster, but it has the potential of 2(or more) for one by itself.

preddi

I feel EE is very good and I run 2 in the sideboard at the moment. Not only can it clear creatures it can get rid of counterbalance, choke, chalice of the void, etc. and is a lot more versatile than something like Disenchant. I run 3 colors and I have loved my EE's in the board. I even use them to clear zombie tokens against dredge which came up at the last legacy tournament I played in.

[TkDodo]

I feel EE is very good and I run 2 in the sideboard at the moment. Not only can it clear creatures it can get rid of counterbalance, choke, chalice of the void, etc. and is a lot more versatile than something like Disenchant. I run 3 colors and I have loved my EE's in the board. I even use them to clear zombie tokens against dredge which came up at the last legacy tournament I played in.

I agree, EE is very good if you play 3 colors against the things you mentioned. I currently have a package of

1 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

in the maindeck. With Trinket Mage, it's a virtual 2-of of EE and SD.Top without actually playing two, since having 2 EE maindeck would be bad against some matchups. This also allows to play a singleton Tormod's Crypt or so in the board for more value. SD.Top is just very good in control mirrors and flat out wins games if they go long, and EE is good mostly for already mentioned reasons. The Trinket Mage can be clunky from time to time, but it is still card advantage, a beater, and it's blue. I also try to fit an Academy Ruins in the deck, since it's very good with EE and Crypt and also a backup solution to get your equipments back if they start bringing in artifact hate.

[matunos]

Sounds reasonable.
Stifleing explosives is an issue, but i think there are so many stifle targets in the deck already so this shouldn't be a reason to not run this card.
I think i will try this card out and see if it works or not. Often things look good or bad on paper, but in reality they will play out different.

Yeah I suppose if you're in a stifle-heavy meta, the one good thing about Larry Nevin's Disk is that Stifle can only delay it.

[Maëlig]

A couple of naive questions from someone who is new to the deck :

Has anyone tried 3 thopter foundry + 1 sword of the meek? We're a bit light on artifacts to support foundry but it's still a very powerfull engine, very synergetic with SFM and nice to have to stabilize in the late-game (including vs pesky burn / sligh / fast zoo decks).

I'm wondering whether a few B2B in the SB wouldn't be interesting. I'm thinking it could have a very nice surprise effect vs greedy decks such as BUG, bant or RUG, especially when it's not expected and they won't think about fetching basics. Hurts us too, sure, but we play ~6 basics and if we see it coming we can adapt in advance.