[DTB] Blade Control

[Setherial]

A couple of naive questions from someone who is new to the deck :

Has anyone tried 3 thopter foundry + 1 sword of the meek? We're a bit light on artifacts to support foundry but it's still a very powerfull engine, very synergetic with SFM and nice to have to stabilize in the late-game (including vs pesky burn / sligh / fast zoo decks).


It's not what you can put in it's what you would drop for these cards. Also non of our bad matchups benefit from Thopter foundry. We can already beat zoo and burn and sligh with batterskull and Snapcaster+removal.

[ivanpei]

Honestly I like path a lot. There's not very much downside to the card. Bolts are good too but I think having a stable manabase is pretty important. The red splash's biggest benefit is red elemental blast. That card beats the mirror straight up. Being able to hit Snapcaster, Jace etc is amazing. Also acts as pseudo removal against delvers. Card is amazing.

For those arguing that path is not md material, I beg to differ. Its not too great against random combo but right now the hottest combo decks are dredge and reanimator. Path is actually very good against Jins, Ichorids and Grave Trolls. Looking at the dtb section, path is pretty solid against everything there. Even against rug delver, they don't even play basics.

[biggerliz]

with maverick's rise, it is pretty tough to continue playing UW blade control. MOM is such a beating, especially game one. i am not sure if i've ever beat a turn 1 MOM that managed to resolve and wasn't subsequently killed. i think g2 playing first we have a great shot, especially packing wrath's in the board, but g3 is again tough.

might be time to play some combo until all this maverick non-sense dies down!

[Waikiki]

I run wrath of god and explosives in side and they work really great against maverick. Its a fun matchup to play

[Philipp2293]

A card that gives Maverick hard times is Shakles, I'm a long time Maverick player, and nothing makes me cry more in this MU than to face Shakles, I guess it must be even worse for Maverick players without grips in the board.

While Shakles doesn't mean immediately GG it often gives UW the time to use your own guys as blockers while ramping counters on Jace. :frown:

[klaus]

A card that gives Maverick hard times is Shakles, I'm a long time Maverick player, and nothing makes me cry more in this MU than to face Shakles, I guess it must be even worse for Maverick players without grips in the board.

While Shakles doesn't mean immediately GG it often gives UW the time to use your own guys as blockers while ramping counters on Jace. :frown:

Recently I re-added Shackles as a 2of and never looked back.
Those aren't merely removal means, but two additional wincons at 3CMC.
I always thought those slots would be better filled with Snappy material, which was plain short sighted.
I urge you to give Shackles another chance - even as a 1of it's never really random..

[Piceli89]

Shouldn't Shackles be bad because of Green Sun's Zenith giving virtually 6 outs maindeck? I know it's a useful tool to bypass color-protection given by Swords and Mother (as well as stealing Mother and use it to retaliate on them), but it sounds pretty temporary and easy to blow up. It's likely that you invest resources and tempo in containing their board position either, to see it blown up in a pinch. Things get even worse post-sideboard considering the Grip surprise buttsex issue.
Also, how much is it optimized if you're running Landstill-esque manabases (Factory and/or Wasteland, which is becoming the standard configuration)?

[Asking because I'm interested in the role of the card in that matchup- not strictly for what regards Shackles in Blade Control (currently playing Countertop and undecided between it and Firespout).]

[Waikiki]

Shackles won me tons of games so far. It also steals mother of runes pretty easily

[Philipp2293]

Shouldn't Shackles be bad because of Green Sun's Zenith giving virtually 6 outs maindeck?

From my experience, if I have to devote time (and my Zeniths) in order to blow up Shakles, while at the same time having the choice of attacking into my own guys or not attacking at all, the position quickly shifts from neutral to losing.

You'd better have the Zenith/Pridemage in your hand after they've tapped out for Shakles, if you have to wait for a 2nd try to blow up the Shakles, you'll have a hard time coming back.

[dan who?]

I also don't think the Maverick match-up is as bad as some make it out to seem. I also run a shackles maindeck and 3 wraths, 2 explosives, 2 paths in the sideboard. Stealing their creatures is such a beating and buys you a lot of time in my experience, I've also used this against zoo and caught a lot of players off guard game 1.

[Jim Higginbottom]

I'm not sure why but I'm 4-1 against maverick with this deck. I run 2 md bolts as well as a repeal and I sb 4 path to exile, a wrath of god, and a retribution of the meek.

[Artlee]

I also don't think the Maverick match-up is as bad as some make it out to seem. I also run a shackles maindeck and 3 wraths, 2 explosives, 2 paths in the sideboard. Stealing their creatures is such a beating and buys you a lot of time in my experience, I've also used this against zoo and caught a lot of players off guard game 1.


I'm not sure why but I'm 4-1 against maverick with this deck. I run 2 md bolts as well as a repeal and I sb 4 path to exile, a wrath of god, and a retribution of the meek.

To be quite frank, you are both doing well against them because you have built your deck to handle these kinds of decks. I guess this makes you weaker versus some other decks instead.

[dan who?]

To be quite frank, you are both doing well against them because you have built your deck to handle these kinds of decks. I guess this makes you weaker versus some other decks instead.

So what you're saying is we are doing well because our decks are geared towards beating certain match-ups that we would have problems with otherwise? Aren't you suppose to be changing decks around to pad match-ups? Isn't that what deck building and meta-gaming is about? I honestly can't foresee with the list I run that I'm a dog in any match-up.

[Artlee]

So what you're saying is we are doing well because our decks are geared towards beating certain match-ups that we would have problems with otherwise?
Yes. In my experience Maverick is supposed to beat UW Control if both pilots are equally skilled.


Aren't you suppose to be changing decks around to pad match-ups? Isn't that what deck building and meta-gaming is about? I honestly can't foresee with the list I run that I'm a dog in any match-up.

I was trying to say that most decks that I have seen do not have both EE and (3) Wrath of God in the SB. With the presence of Snapcaster Mage I would think that bringing in EE, WoG and Paths could be an overkill.
Do you mind sharing your full decklist?

[dan who?]

// Lands
6 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Wrath of God
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

It's Frid's exact list that he has been having success with for a while (in Europe where Maverick is played heavily I may add :smile:), the only thing I changed was +2 Paths for 2 Firespouts as I'd rather have more spot removal to go with Snaps but I know he likes Firespouts better. I've been liking Explosives because it can act as a sudo-wrath, gets rid of problem artifacts/enchantments, and is more versatile so it can be brought in against many different decks unlike narrower cards like Disenchant. The 3/3 split of Spell Snare and Counterspell is out of respect for all the different kinds of combo out there as the sideboard is geared towards creatures.

Is the 3 Wraths, 2 Paths, 2 EEs out of the board overkill against Maverick or in general? Probably, but I haven't really wanted anything else out of the board for any other particular match-up. I bring the EEs in for choke (against Mav) so there is splash over that it also happens to hit creatures with converted mana cost of 3 :smile:. If the meta-game changes and I feel like I need to make a different match-up better the deck and sideboard will change.

I think this quote pretty much sums Stone-Blade up in a nutshell.


And Alex, the author of the article answered this (here is the translation of his explanation):

"Playing with CAW is cools because you have almost all even pairings. As I have mentioned earlier, with a little bit of skill and luck you can win tournaments easily. But why play a "balanced" and "fair" decklist when you can just go broken?
And you will tell me: "Well, you have just said it, because if you play it correcly while having even pairiings you can beat anyone" Well, yes, it´s true, but you will have even pairings. This means you can win versus anyone as much as you can lose to anyone.

With the different color options available this deck has all the tools it needs to beat pretty much anything but the pilot of the deck will need to know how to pilot it in general, how to play against different decks, how to sideboard, etc. I agree with you that in a vacuum if both pilots are of the same skill level, with stock lists, and the matches are pre-board only Maverick will win more often but luckily we do have the luxury of a sideboard and to adjust the main deck as we see fit :smile:. I feel that this deck has decent match-ups against the field and allows you to outplay your opponent better than any other deck which is why I play it. Otherwise like the quote says why play a fair deck like this when you can do something broken?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you want broken, try the Painter Stone combo, and an Elspeth or 2. Jace is good. Not perfect for every situation, and certainly not aggressive. Elspeth is. I win so fast a lot just because of painter combo it's crazy. Elspeth makes my Batterskulls so crazy. Sword of Body and Mind isn't worth wasting the slot for, and Jace shouldn't be considered a win-con as often as it is. Man, I'm crazy opinionated...

ABC

EDIT: Wasted again. It's in my nature.

[klaus]

// Lands
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Wrath of God
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives


Your SB looks legit.
But those Relics are quite terrible with Snappy.
I'd strongly suggest S.Extraction #3&4.
Also: EE should be Disenchant imo.

[BantFTW]

Your SB looks legit.
But those Relics are quite terrible with Snappy.
I'd strongly suggest S.Extraction #3&4.
Also: EE should be Disenchant imo.

Relics are indeed terrible with snappy, but mostly you want against the graveyard decks that you remove the whole graveyard and not just only one card, I think :)
Also EE is a really good card and doesn't kill your own creatures.
Disenchant doesn't kill everything but EE does, that's why he's better I would say.

[klaus]

Your SB looks legit.
But those Relics are quite terrible with Snappy.
I'd strongly suggest S.Extraction #3&4.
Also: EE should be Disenchant imo.

Relics are indeed terrible with snappy, but mostly you want against the graveyard decks that you remove the whole graveyard and not just only one card, I think :)
Also EE is a really good card and doesn't kill your own creatures.
Disenchant doesn't kill everything but EE does, that's why he's better I would say.

4 Stp, 2 PtE (+4 Snappy DoubleUps), and 3 Wrath kill every effing thing out there, basically nullifying EE's use as creature removal.

Disenchant clearly is the better EE here. Also EE being the sole out to a resolved Choke is sort of meh, since you'll need 5 mana (which can be tough if you can untap only 1-2 land) and possibly 2 turns to destroy it, giving them time to Pridemage it on top of that.
I've added 2 Disenchant to my SB a while ago and never looked back - being able to Snapcast it is noteworthy as well.

[preddi]

Hmm i think disenchant is not versatile enough. I'd rather play O-Ring instead, but EE looks superior to O-Ring in most cases.
I also think EE is a fine card to bring in against creature heavy decks. Sure, Path/Disenchant are superior to EE at their respective fields, but i always think flexible cards are better in the wild west of legacy.

[klaus]

Hmm i think disenchant is not versatile enough. I'd rather play O-Ring instead, but EE looks superior to O-Ring in most cases.
I also think EE is a fine card to bring in against creature heavy decks. Sure, Path/Disenchant are superior to EE at their respective fields, but i always think flexible cards are better in the wild west of legacy.

I think we have a different view on SBs in general:
In my opinion The MD is supposed to be versatile and streamlined, while the SB slots should be occupied with specific hate. REB is a good example. You see, nobody would say: "REB can only target blue permanents and spells, thus it's not sufficiently versatile as a SB choice". With Disenchant it's quite the same.
To me Oblivion Ring is an "anti-SB" card in that it's a Swiss knife, so quite the opposite of "specific hate" (barring Show and Tell.dec). The same applies to EE (if to a lesser degree, since it's able to kill multiple tokens for 2 mana). The argument that it hits multiple one drops is, as stated before, not very convincing in a deck packing 3 Wraths and 6 reusable spot removals.

And let me stress it again: Disenchant is Snapcastable.
-

[chags]

I think we have a different view on SBs in general:
In my opinion The MD is supposed to be versatile and streamlined, while the SB slots should be occupied with specific hate. REB is a good example. You see, nobody would say: "REB can only target blue permanents and spells, thus it's not sufficiently versatile as a SB choice". With Disenchant it's quite the same.
To me Oblivion Ring is an "anti-SB" card in that it's a Swiss knife, so quite the opposite of "specific hate" (barring Show and Tell.dec). The same applies to EE (if to a lesser degree, since it's able to kill multiple tokens for 2 mana). The argument that it hits multiple one drops is, as stated before, not very convincing in a deck packing 3 Wraths and 6 reusable spot removals.

And let me stress it again: Disenchant is Snapcastable.
-


I play with 2 disenchant in my SB and love them. The fact that they are snapcastable makes them quite good.

[Artlee]

I agree with klaus. Between the early pressure from Maverick and you playing either wrath or EE you must have tapped out at some point, and a skilled Mav player plants the choke there.

[dan who?]

Your SB looks legit.
But those Relics are quite terrible with Snappy.
I'd strongly suggest S.Extraction #3&4.
Also: EE should be Disenchant imo.

Relics are indeed terrible with snappy, but mostly you want against the graveyard decks that you remove the whole graveyard and not just only one card, I think :)
Also EE is a really good card and doesn't kill your own creatures.
Disenchant doesn't kill everything but EE does, that's why he's better I would say.

Yes, I have the 2/2 split of graveyard removal for decks like dredge where I want to remove their whole graveyard. It's one of the cheaper decks out there and I never want to lose to it so I always make sure I pack at least 4 pieces of hate. They're not good with snapcaster but I like that I can remove the whole yard, cantrip, or just prolong it over time with relics tap ability. I'm sure the relics can be Tormod's Crypts which will only remove one players graveyard (I've been thinking about making the switch), S.Extraction #3&4, Purify the Graves, etc but I do know that I want at least 4 pieces since there are decks like Dredge and Reanimator out there on any given Sunday.

There is a valid case for removing EE and adding something like Disenchant which I've considered before and I definitely don't condemn anyone who makes the switch I just haven't ran into an issue with EE yet and like it a lot currently. Aura of Silence is another option I've ran in the past as it can hit random problem cards, and is really good against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, but isn't good with snapcaster.

[CaBaaL]

I tried and gave up shackles for moat, it buys more time against maverick and it is instant win against some decks.

[matunos]

I like EE MD and I'm still curious why more lists don't run it. They can be swapped in for more specific hate when appropriate, and can be fantastic with Academy Ruins on the board.

I'm planning on trying Dismantling Blow in place of Disenchant in my SB. It gets around Countertop (not that I've seen a lot of Countertop) and, perhaps more importantly, Spell Snare, but with the obvious caveat that it requires an extra mana, also making it harder to snapcast. The potential for card draw is just a bonus. Anyone tried this? I'm also curious how the Auras work out. For two white and the downside of announcing themselves, it seems a little risky.

Re: Relic/Crypt vs Reanimator: in my albeit limited experience, removing the entire graveyard from a reanimator deck doesn't seem that necessary. Between counters and removal, its not too difficult to completely disrupt a reanimator, and then put them on a clock of your own with Batterskull (and they have little to answer Jace with as well). If you hold onto your Extraction/Snappy until they attempt a reanimation, then remove their target, they'll be hurting enough, IMO. And the nice thing about Extraction is you can (snap)cast it w/o any mana, so it doesn't matter how fast they are. Extraction is also useful against other decks, such as control.

[lambert101]

List I have been brewing with. Changes to normal stock list because I was having a hard time with aggro decks (maverick, Zoo, and RUG tempo to some extent). Please comment and discuss to try and make the deck better.

Main:

2 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

side:
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Disenchant
1 Force of Will

[klaus]

I'm planning on trying Dismantling Blow in place of Disenchant in my SB. It gets around Countertop (not that I've seen a lot of Countertop) and, perhaps more importantly, Spell Snare, but with the obvious caveat that it requires an extra mana, also making it harder to snapcast. The potential for card draw is just a bonus. Anyone tried this?

I used to have an on/off thing with D. Blow back in the good ol Landstill days.
The bonus draw happened maybe at a rate of 5% of the games - less than I had expected.
CB.dec is an argument in D.Blows favor but the higher cost is a bigger downside than at first sight (no pun intended).
Maverick packing Wasteland is an issue here. So are: a turn2 Sylvan Library, Loadstone Golem, Aether Vial, Metal Worker - the list goes on. Plus flashsnap will cost you 5. Also being semi-tapped out against a resolved Choke will cost you about 2 extra turns in average to find that third land.

[chags]

List I have been brewing with. Changes to normal stock list because I was having a hard time with aggro decks (maverick, Zoo, and RUG tempo to some extent). Please comment and discuss to try and make the deck better.

Main:

2 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
2 Counterspell
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
3 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

side:
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Disenchant
1 Force of Will

3 wog 4 pte and 4 stp seems like a little bit of overkill with snapcaster. I run 2 wog, 3 pte, 4 stp which would free up two more SB slots for you. Similarly I don't know that 3 disenchant are necessary, I'd drop to 2 but I don't know your meta. More surgicals wouldn't be a bad idea, 2 gy hate cards seems too low. The md is pretty stock, I see nothing wrong with running 2 pte main. 2 JTMS might prove too few in control mirrors but if you are facing lots of aggro you probably don't miss jace #3 much.

[klaus]

3 wog 4 pte and 4 stp seems like a little bit of overkill with snapcaster. I run 2 wog, 3 pte, 4 stp which would free up two more SB slots for you. Similarly I don't know that 3 disenchant are necessary, I'd drop to 2 but I don't know your meta. More surgicals wouldn't be a bad idea, 2 gy hate cards seems too low. The md is pretty stock, I see nothing wrong with running 2 pte main. 2 JTMS might prove too few in control mirrors but if you are facing lots of aggro you probably don't miss jace #3 much.

Very good points. 2 thumbs up!

[chags]

Very good points. 2 thumbs up!

Thank you sir.

P.S. what does your list look like these days?

[planeswalkerzen]

So there's a free Win-a-set of Sinkholes event at my LGS this Sunday and this is my current list I'm planning to take. Your thoughts would be much appreciated as I'm going on a holiday from Tuesday until Saturday to a place with no internet connection :P

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Preordain
2 Counterspell
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Purify the Grave
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Cheers,
Zen

[CaBaaL]

My suggestions: cut preodrains for spell pierces MD they will catch some ppl with their pants down, or engeenired explosives (cause you play U/W/r). Replace Purify the Grave for extraction for me it is strictly better.

I see a lot ppl switching to maverick what is the best list against them?

[Einherjer]

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

[rancOr_]

I don't see why u wouldnt want to play uwr atm.Some lists are playing red for sb blasts anyway(which I think u should def do,as they win the blue mirror etc). Most Ux lists are playing with 4snapcaster and the other stock blue cards.In addition u can play with some grim lavamancer main and/or side,which really help out a lot in the maverick and other aggro mu's. The manabase is still stable so I see very few reasons to not do so.

[klaus]

P.S. what does your list look like these days?

I've actually cut the blade part, since I witnessed myself boarding it out way too often. - I'm aware it might not be appropriate to post bladeless lists on this thread, but maybe the approach sparks another more on topic stream of thought.

Anyway, Cliques haven't convinced me lately (I'm facing an aggro meta) which is why I replaced them with 2 Vedalken Shackles. And well, I've built the list around S. Hawks - once again. Snapcaster doubling your Brainstorms (the card that breaks Hawks) is an insane addition to this strategy. You now don't have to hold back you early BSs, which is huge. Hawks basically replace Sprites - a reasonable switch imo.

Further more, the manabase is rock solid and B2B is a neat addition to the SB. 7 reusable cantrips justify low land count (21) - I hardly ever get screwed, but draw a tad more action throughout the game.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Mountain
5 Island
1 Plains

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
1 Path to Exile
2 Back to Basics
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God

Interestingly I seem to win most games via combat damage (even w/o Shackles), which confuses me a little bit, since I'm only running 8 mini dudes w/o any equipment. Apparently it's the abnormal CA/CQ that this deck generates, while controlling the ground (and most decks don't play 8 removal spells).
Possible change: -1 Bolt +1 Clique/Lavamancer

Check out this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22801-Deck-UWR-Snapcaster-Control) for further insights:

[matunos]

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

The Stoneblade vs Maverick debate is soooo last year!

j/k :smile:

FWIW, it would be nice to see the matchups section of the primer updated for this post-MM world.

[chags]

Stoneblade in general has a hard time with Maverick- But I see UWr superior due to EE at 3 + the normal UW Cards Wrath, Swords, Path + Snappy

My UWr stoneblade list with 3 MD bolts, 4 stp, 2 wog, and 1 EE in the 75 hasn't dropped a game against maverick in the last three tournaments I've played in (in which I faced it 5 times).

[miko]

I really like klaus' idea of dropping the stoneforge package and play a straight UWR Snapcaster Control list. This list is what I'm playing in my local tourneys:

4 Tundra
1 Riptide Labatory
1 Snow-Covered Plains
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
= 24

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm

Sideboard:

2 Wrath of God
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Disenchant
3 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
1 Elspeth, the Knight Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Purify the Grave

My meta consists of a lot of RUG decks playing mongoose instead of Snapcasters, Maverick and some decks like Nic Fit, etc.
I play Underground Sea because of EE and Surgical Extraction. Sometimes you just do not want to pay two.
I'm thinking about playing 4 Surgical Extractions and cutting 1 Jace for 1 Vedalcken Shakles.

What do you guys think? For further discussion:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22801-Deck-UWR-Snapcaster-Control&p=611089#post611089

[biggerliz]

I've actually cut the blade part, since I witnessed myself boarding it out way too often. - I'm aware it might not be appropriate to post bladeless lists on this thread, but maybe the approach sparks another more on topic stream of thought.

Anyway, Cliques haven't convinced me lately (I'm facing an aggro meta) which is why I replaced them with 2 Vedalken Shackles. And well, I've built the list around S. Hawks - once again. Snapcaster doubling your Brainstorms (the card that breaks Hawks) is an insane addition to this strategy. You now don't have to hold back you early BSs, which is huge. Hawks basically replace Sprites - a reasonable switch imo.

Further more, the manabase is rock solid and B2B is a neat addition to the SB. 7 reusable cantrips justify low land count (21) - I hardly ever get screwed, but draw a tad more action throughout the game.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Mountain
5 Island
1 Plains

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
1 Path to Exile
2 Back to Basics
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God

Interestingly I seem to win most games via combat damage (even w/o Shackles), which confuses me a little bit, since I'm only running 8 mini dudes w/o any equipment. Apparently it's the abnormal CA/CQ that this deck generates, while controlling the ground (and most decks don't play 8 removal spells).
Possible change: -1 Bolt +1 Clique/Lavamancer

Check out this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22801-Deck-UWR-Snapcaster-Control) for further insights:

i've faced/tried a similar list. i am not sure how you are making it work. hawks feel opposing when you are playing control vs control, but against anything else, they are just CA and 1/1.

for example, against hexproof, thrun, new geist lists, and resolved MOMs, you are zero outs pre, and 2 outs post. your 1/1 blockers won't last long in that phase.

i do agree that this beats other UW or delver or anything goyf centric.

[Patrunkenphat7]

My UWr stoneblade list with 3 MD bolts, 4 stp, 2 wog, and 1 EE in the 75 hasn't dropped a game against maverick in the last three tournaments I've played in (in which I faced it 5 times).

This is very hard to believe or you are just very lucky. My group playtests Legacy religiously (obviously with SB...), and Maverick just continues to crush UW on the reg. Do you play against the superior red Maverick lists? Are they playing Choke, Teeg, and Thrun? Are they competent Magic players? I find your statement a little shocking... Wrath is really the only good gameplan, and it isn't even that great when their gameplan turns into playing Mother + Teeg and Choke all backed by Pyroblasts. Not to mention a good player is not going to over-commit post SB.

[anwei]

Has anyone tried a transformative board into something like the U/W Countertop Superfriends list?
Sometimes Stoneforge isn't worth leaving in, but main-decking Hawks hardly seems like a good alternative. Stoneforge is worst against removal-heavy aggro, where counterbalance helps play the control role much better.

I'm about to start testing something like this:

MD
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra (I only have 3; would add 4th for a basic or Factory)
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Lab
7 Island
2 Plains
=24 Land

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 V Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Wrath of God
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

Siding out -4 SFM, -1 Batterskull, -1 Sword, +3 CB, +3 SDT gives a "base" curve (before further sboarding) of:
1: 16
2: 10
3: 2 (not including 2 Shackles, 1 Ring, which could likely come in)
4: 4
5: 4

Siding this way basically blanks their removal for game 2 (and open up either option for game 3), and provides a (potentially) more Card-Advantageous plan against removal-heavy aggro than siding out SFM, then 1-for-1ing guys with removal and counters until you think you can defend Jace to win.

The 2 specific issues I'm worried about (besides, obviously, doing too much or having crippled the sideboard) are:
1. Tight on spots, the Counterbalance curve is a bit awkward at the 2 and 3 slots.
2. Slow clock in countertop mode (bad against combo and staying under time).

[Mackan]

Has anyone tried a transformative board into something like the U/W Countertop Superfriends list?
Sometimes Stoneforge isn't worth leaving in, but main-decking Hawks hardly seems like a good alternative. Stoneforge is worst against removal-heavy aggro, where counterbalance helps play the control role much better.

I'm about to start testing something like this:

MD
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra (I only have 3; would add 4th for a basic or Factory)
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Lab
7 Island
2 Plains
=24 Land

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 V Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Wrath of God
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction

Siding out -4 SFM, -1 Batterskull, -1 Sword, +3 CB, +3 SDT gives a "base" curve (before further sboarding) of:
1: 16
2: 10
3: 2 (not including 2 Shackles, 1 Bridge, which are likely coming in)
4: 4
5: 4

Siding this way basically blanks their removal for game 2 (and open up either option for game 3), and provides a (potentially) more Card-Advantageous plan against removal-heavy aggro than siding out SFM, then 1-for-1ing guys with removal and counters until you think you can defend Jace to win.

The 2 specific issues I'm worried about (besides, obviously, doing too much or having crippled the sideboard) are:
1. Tight on spots, the Counterbalance curve is a bit awkward at the 2 and 3 slots.
2. Slow clock in countertop mode (bad against combo and staying under time).

Or... you could just play CB-top in the blade shell like I've been doing since even before GP Amsterdam :)

CB@1 makes up for the lack of mental misstep protecting stoneforge mystic.

CREATURES (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (16)
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Batterskull
LANDS (23)
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds

[Artlee]

The problem with this transformative build is that your opponent is probably going to side in artifact removal spells. You are taking out 2 equipments and in comes 3-6 artifacts + enchantments. This means you are actually lowering the chance of disenchant/krosan grip being a dead card.

[SupREME-10]

I like that blened Blade-Counter-Top deck idea and I think that although it does give up a couple things here and there, it also adds a lot in other match-ups.

Thanks for sharing and I for one will test it out before I say anything else about it.

[anwei]

Or... you could just play CB-top in the blade shell like I've been doing since even before GP Amsterdam :)


I should have said that the second assumption behind doing this (besides "sometimes stoneforge isn't right but dropping it entirely isn't either") is that playing both together is pretty bad - both halves are pretty mana intensive and their "synergy" is slow - especially if you're pausing your top, cb, sfm, batterskull "plan A" to actually remove/counter opposing threats. Goyf is simply better with CB.


The problem with this transformative build is that your opponent is probably going to side in artifact removal spells. You are taking out 2 equipments and in comes 3-6 artifacts + enchantments. This means you are actually lowering the chance of disenchant/krosan grip being a dead card.

I realize this (it was almost "problem #3"). These slots are often Ancient Grudge, which is still not back-breaking (Top is a bad target, Bridge/Shackles are part of a pretty-full anti-creature suite), and can be addressed by floating CB@2 if it's up. Many Aggro match-ups are pretty good as-is. Counterbalance protects itself (at least) better than Batterskull does, and again, losing it is not as disruptive to that part of the plan as losing Batterskull can be (though it would def. not be welcome in, say, the mirror).

[Jim Higginbottom]

The uwr blade list doesn't have a terrible matchup vs maverick. I'm now 4-2 against it in tournaments with my 2nd loss including 2 mulligans to five. I run main deck bolts and have wraths as well as 4 path to exiles in the board. I side out my snares and leave in my force of will almost exclusively to counter choke. And yes half of the matchups were against the punishing fire lists.

[Mackan]

Comparing goyf and stoneforge; I think untapping with stoneforge is a bonus... I allways count on either dying. So in that regard I rather have a Batterskull in hand than nothing. That's the reason why I prefer 2 skulls over fancy swords (I've tested them too).
You need a manabase full of basics (and tops!) but skull turn 5 happens most games. I do miss wasteland a bit though and should probably fit them in there again. A splash is certainly doable but Im a consistency junkie so that's why im strictly 2 colors / 22 lands.

It's solid against most decks but roll over and dies to any blue deck with pyroblasts and punishing fire :/

[chags]

This is very hard to believe or you are just very lucky. My group playtests Legacy religiously (obviously with SB...), and Maverick just continues to crush UW on the reg. Do you play against the superior red Maverick lists? Are they playing Choke, Teeg, and Thrun? Are they competent Magic players? I find your statement a little shocking... Wrath is really the only good gameplan, and it isn't even that great when their gameplan turns into playing Mother + Teeg and Choke all backed by Pyroblasts. Not to mention a good player is not going to over-commit post SB.

Yes I play against competent players (two out of the three tournaments were Jupiter NELC legacy events which are well known for the skill level they attract in the northeast). With 10 removal spells post board, 9 of which can be recurred with snapcaster, I don't find it hard to answer their threats. I also play 2 Elspeth main as well as jitte as my second equipment. Disenchants help this match quite a bit too, and surgical answers their punishing fire. I generally side out my jaces and some counter magic and board in answers, this also makes their pyroblasts a lot worse. For Reference:

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Snapcaster mage
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
3x Spellsnare
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Counterspell
1x Manaleak
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
2x Elspeth, Knight errant
1x Umezawa's jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Wasteland
1x Riptide laboratory
1x Karakas
SB:
2x Disenchant
2x Wrath of God
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Spell Pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Force of Will
1x Batterskull
2x Pyroblast

SB plan: -3 Fow, -2 JTMS, -2 Counterspell, -1 Mana Leak--+2 Wrath of God, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Disenchant, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Crucible of Worlds

[TkDodo]

Yes I play against competent players (two out of the three tournaments were Jupiter NELC legacy events which are well known for the skill level they attract in the northeast). With 10 removal spells post board, 9 of which can be recurred with snapcaster, I don't find it hard to answer their threats. I also play 2 Elspeth main as well as jitte as my second equipment. Disenchants help this match quite a bit too, and surgical answers their punishing fire. I generally side out my jaces and some counter magic and board in answers, this also makes their pyroblasts a lot worse. For Reference:

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Snapcaster mage
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
3x Spellsnare
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Counterspell
1x Manaleak
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
2x Elspeth, Knight errant
1x Umezawa's jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Wasteland
1x Riptide laboratory
1x Karakas
SB:
2x Disenchant
2x Wrath of God
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Spell Pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Force of Will
1x Batterskull
2x Pyroblast

SB plan: -3 Fow, -2 JTMS, -2 Counterspell, -1 Mana Leak--+2 Wrath of God, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Disenchant, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Crucible of Worlds

I never thought that Disenchant is worth a SB slot. If you want to beat the mirror, splash red (like you already do) and board in blast effects (at least 4). Against Maverick, I think we are better off playing Spell Pierce. My list has two of them main so I don't need to bring them in, but they handle everything that Disenchant is there for: Equipments (If you keep them off their SFM, which should be easy with Snares and Removals), Choke, Sylvan Library. On top of that, it handles the early GSZ (even the midgame ones when they go for bigger creatures) and Elspeth, which we are cold to (apart from legend ruling her). The creatures can all be handled with removal, so we need things that take care of their non-creature spells. Also, I think boarding out Jace is wrong. Apart from attacking, Maverick has no way of dealing with Jace. Also, the games tend to be 1-for-1 trades a lot, until both are out of gas (even more so postboard). That's where Jace comes in and re-fills your hand. If you untap with him, it should be over.

However, Maverick will always be one of the toughest Matchups for BladeControl. If your meta is full of Maverick, you will probably do better playing combo.

And for people playing without Wasteland: How do you beat Maze of Ith or Grove of the Burnwillows ? Wasteland is just so important imo, not for mana screwing the opponent like stifle/daze/wasteland builds tend to do, but for said utitily lands.

[Shaka1333]

I'm not so sure about Spell Pierce against Maverick as they play less than 10 non-creatures spells. I mean, sure it will counter some very important spells every now and then but i feel like it will be useless very fast as it's a very poor topdeck in late game and that it's not that hard to play around to resolve key spells.

Nobody has an opinion about klaus' Bladeless Caw Go list ?

[Koby]

Maverick tends to board out some creatures or equipment to bring in 2-3 Choke, so the amount of spells typically stay constant. Spell Pierce is fine against GSZ, but very rarely would Choke be cast unless Stoneblade player is nearly tapped out.

Having a higher than usual basic land count helps much more against the Wasteland plan in normal gameplay too.

RE: klaus' CawGo list
I am intrigued, but not sure if beatdown with a bunch of 1/1's is going to be a faster clock than just going with the Faerie route. I do agree that Card Quality is increased tremendously by recycling Squadron Hawks.

[preddi]

Hey guys,
My meta my meta is stocked with punishing maverick atm. Im looking for a maindeck solution. Any suggestions?

[Ajsmirnov]

How about Back to Basics? They usually have only 1 basic land

[matunos]

Hey guys,
My meta my meta is stocked with punishing maverick atm. Im looking for a maindeck solution. Any suggestions?

I don't have any MD suggestions (although if you can get along w/o depending on duals/manlands B2B sounds good).

I'm curious though what you've been siding in. I would think Surgical Extraction is a no-brainier: rid yourself of Punishing Fire (or Life from the Loan; though that's a singleton I think, and probably best left to Purify the Grave, if you also side that in). If you've tried that, I'm interested in your experience with it.

[from Cairo]

Hey guys,
My meta my meta is stocked with punishing maverick atm. Im looking for a maindeck solution. Any suggestions?


Storm Combo and Show and Tell are probably Maverick's weakest matches. Something like BUG Control or Nic Fit might be alright too. You just need to have a lot of early defensive, but Pernicious Deed is sort of a house and sb Extirpate can answer Punishing Fire.

EDIT: Sorry had the What Should I Play In My Metagame (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11720-What-Should-I-Play-In-My-Metagame&p=611925#post611925) thread open in another tab and misposted.

I think the Red splash for extra MD removal in the form of Lightning Bolt helps, you could try and flex in a Fire//Ice it can be good at hitting Scryb Ranger or Mother of Runes and a Noble Hierarch - it atleast gives you a way to gain some tempo/CA over them. Maverick plays too many threats to go 1 for 1 indefinitely, post SB Wrath of God is a total beating, if your meta has a lot of agro I'd run 3. Having a lot of basics and foregoing Mishra's Factory/Mutavault helps ensure that you can develop your mana with out Knight of the Reliquary chaining Wastelands at you. I think the manlands are pretty underwhelming in the current metagame, most DTBs are running removal (and Wastelands for that matter) and having your lands shot out from under you is pretty backbreaking.

Again sorry for the original misguided response.

[matunos]

Storm Combo and Show and Tell are probably Maverick's weakest matches. Something like BUG Control or Nic Fit might be alright too. You just need to have a lot of early defensive, but Pernicious Deed is sort of a house and sb Extirpate can answer Punishing Fire.

I assumed that he was asking about what to play MD in a Stoneblade deck, not which deck archetype to play...

[yutang]

Hey guys,
My meta my meta is stocked with punishing maverick atm. Im looking for a maindeck solution. Any suggestions?

Red splash with Blood Moon
UW variants can run Crucible w/ Wasteland

Surgical Extraction is a bad idea against Punishing Fire as they can recur in response.

[matunos]

Surgical Extraction is a bad idea against Punishing Fire as they can recur in response.

Maybe I've got the timing wrong, but can't you wait until they tap their Grove to give you life, and then extract in response to Punishing's trigger, before they can recur it?

Unless they have multiple Groves out (or the life gain is from something else, like an StP), they won't be able to trigger the ability again in response to Extraction, right?

[from Cairo]

Maybe I've got the timing wrong, but can't you wait until they tap their Grove to give you life, and then extract in response to Punishing's trigger, before they can recur it?

Unless they have multiple Groves out (or the life gain is from something else, like an StP), they won't be able to trigger the ability again in response to Extraction, right?

I'm not a judge, but I'm pretty confident that's correct. With PFire's trigger on the stack you can Surgical it and they'd have to trigger it again (in response to Surgical) via another life gain effect to successfully return it to their hand.

[chags]

So I brought the list I posted on page 28 to the January NELC event this past weekend and finished in 9th place due to tiebreakers. I plan on writing a report but for those of you who are curious, the deck went 5-1-1 leaving me as the only 16 pointer out of 4 to not top 8. Round 1 I unintentionally drew with RUG tempo, round 2 I beat UW blade 2-0, round 3 I beat GW maverick 2-1, round 4 I beat affinity 2-1, round 5 lost to UWr blade 0-2, round 6 beat UWr blade 2-0, and round 7 beat Bant tempo 2-1. I'll give an in depth report of the matches when I have some time to write them up this week. All in all the list performed great, my friend played the same list to 10th place with a 5-2 record at the event.

[preddi]

Well after boarding, i have 3 extractions, but they can play around surgical if they are good (at least when i try to remove punishing fire). Another option is to waste a grove and surgical the land instead of the fires.
But i want something in my maindeck. I saw scg atlanta lists with geist of seint traft. maybe this is an option.

[matunos]

Well after boarding, i have 3 extractions, but they can play around surgical if they are good (at least when i try to remove punishing fire). Another option is to waste a grove and surgical the land instead of the fires.
But i want something in my maindeck. I saw scg atlanta lists with geist of seint traft. maybe this is an option.

As I mentioned, you'll have to wait for them to tap their Grove to give you life and then excteact the Punishing Fire in response to the trigger. This way, their Grove is already tapped so they can't trigger it again. Your extraction will resolve first, removing PFire from the game before it goes to their hand. This won't work if they have another untapped Grove in play though (unless you can immediately snapcast the extraction, or have another one in hand). But if they have another Grove in play, wasting one and extracting won't work either, because Surgical Extraction doesn't target cards in play.

If you get the opportunity to waste the Grove and extract, though, you should probably go for it, before they do get 2 in play.

I think Geist could be a reasonable addition. I was planning on trying him out (alongside the Cliques), even before seeing Tony Chu's list from Atlanta. I actually ran him main before I had the Cliques and he did pretty good, although it was only in one local tourney, so it's more anecdotal. He should be good versus the mirror and plenty of other matchups with spot removal, esp. if you can get a sword or powered Jitte on him.

Unequipped, Geist is an opportunity striker at best, but even then he remains a potent threat, keeping your opponent from fully swinging at you lest you race them with Geist + Angel.

Also, if you can get a Sword of Fire and Ice on one of your critters, they'll be immune to Punishing Fire. If Punishing Maverick is that common in your meta, you might want to run that in the maindeck.

[chags]

If you run geist just be careful with your removal. I've watched a few blade players use stp in order to swing with geist profitably only to get boned later when an actual threat hits the table. Also geist should not just replace clique...I'd choose not to play geist before I cut my cliques.

[matunos]

If you run geist just be careful with your removal. I've watched a few blade players use stp in order to swing with geist profitably only to get boned later when an actual threat hits the table. Also geist should not just replace clique...I'd choose not to play geist before I cut my cliques.

Can you explain how they got boned? Because he couldn't swing anymore, or some other reason?

[from Cairo]

Presumably Plowing a 2+ power blocker to try and get quick pressure in with Geist swings and then getting rolled by Knight of the Reliquary.

On the topic of Geist one can attack, generating the 4/4 and if they have a blocker, Karakas could be used to protect Geist. This is only situationally a productive line of play, but ground stalls definitely come up.

The issue I see with Geist is that he's really just a resilient clock. The deck already has 4 SFM, 3 Clique and 2-4 Planeswalkers occupying win-condition slots and all of these cards bring utility to the table. I'm not sure what I'd be comfortable cutting to accommodate him.

[matunos]

The issue I see with Geist is that he's really just a resilient clock. The deck already has 4 Knight, 3 Clique and 2-4 Planeswalkers occupying win-condition slots and all of these cards bring utility to the table. I'm not sure what I'd be comfortable cutting to accommodate him.

Sorry, which deck has 4 Knight? No Blade Control (U/W Stoneblade) list that I've seen. The only green I've seen run in U/W Stoneblade is for Krosan's Grip.

[from Cairo]

Sorry, which deck has 4 Knight? No Blade Control (U/W Stoneblade) list that I've seen. The only green I've seen run in U/W Stoneblade is for Krosan's Grip.

My bad, I guess I was thinking Stoneforge and was typing Knight. My overall point was that Geist is purely a win condition. Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Jace and Elspeth can all provide effects to bounce back from unfavorable positions; Vendilion Clique can proactively navigate around some of those positions. For these reasons I can't really see cutting into the core win conditions for Geist. I don't really see a place for him in the MD.

Against control and combo I can totally see Geist shining, keep them off few (if any) blockers and seal the game quickly. But against agro the deck tends to have to grind out it's matches and Geist doesn't help too much against an unfavorable board position. I'd certainly rather be drawing SFM, Snapcaster, or a Planeswalker against Maverick, Junk/Deadguy or tribal.

[Water_Wizard]

Okay, so what does everyone think about Tony Chu's changes to his deck? For those of you who don't know, Chu won the SCG Charlotte Legacy Open on 11DEC11 with this deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42657 and then recently won the SCG Atlanta Open on 08JAN12 with this deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43048

Changes to his most recent deck are:
+2 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Wasteland (3 total)
+2 Mana Leak
+4 Mishra's Factory
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Tower of the Magistrate
-2 Counterspell
-1 Island
-1 Karakas
-2 Mutavault
-1 Riptide Laboratory (0 Maindeck)
-2 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-2 Vendilion Clique

You can see a side-by-side of his lists here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/comparedeck.php?deck1=42657&deck2=43048

Todd Anderson (13th place) also swapped the Counterspells for Mana Leaks

Looking at Chu's sideboard, I think he made 2 interesting choices:

1. Leyline of the Void - What exactly are the odds of drawing a Leyline in your opening 7? 40%? And does it drop to 35% if you mull to 6? Leyline is the toughest SB hate to play around, but Surgical Extraction is good with Snapcaster. If you gave me the option of Leyline in play or Surgical in hand, I would pick Leyline all day, but what scares me is the game I mull to 5 and don't see one. Also, since this deck has no way to hard cast them, they are totally deck draws later in the game. I know we can Brainstorm/Jace them away, but how about 2 Surgical/2 Relic?

2. Krosan Grips - I like that Chu packs Artifact/Enchantment hate (something UW has been known to be weak to), but what concerns me is he only has 1 green mana source (Tropical Island). I realize you can leave a fetch until you need to use Grip, but Wasteland isn't going to let that Tropical Island hang around for long. Crucible provides an ability for recursion, but with only 1 in the deck, it is a long shot. Disenchant is weak to Spell Snare, Counterbalance and Batterskull bounce, but it is easier to flash back with Snapcaster. Thoughts!

Just wanted to get the conversation started. Interesting changes Chu made, removing the Faerie package and making the UW Legacy Stoneblade more like the Standard UW deck.

[from Cairo]

Is Tower of the Magistrate better than Kor Haven? They both shut down an equipped attacker, both are susceptible to Wasteland and can tap for colorless, but Kor Haven isn't only relevant against Stoneforge Mystic decks. Magistrate is admittedly a bigger beating against Stoneforge decks giving a Germ pro-Artifact leaving the 'Skull hanging, but it seems like pretty narrow application. I could totally be missing something, but Magistrate seems loose.

[Water_Wizard]

Is Tower of the Magistrate better than Kor Haven? They both shut down an equipped attacker, both are susceptible to Wasteland and can tap for colorless, but Kor Haven isn't only relevant against Stoneforge Mystic decks. Magistrate is admittedly a bigger beating against Stoneforge decks giving a Germ pro-Artifact leaving the 'Skull hanging, but it seems like pretty narrow application. I could totally be missing something, but Magistrate seems loose.

I think the beauty of Tower of the Magistrate is that you remove the threat. True, they can bounce and replay the Batterskull, but that costs 5 mana with a SFM in play, 8 without. It can be used against Maverick in addition to the mirror. I agree, it seems loose, especially with no way to search for the lone Tower, but if you've got the spot, it beats a basic Island. I guess it could also be used against Death & Taxes, to prevent a Mirsha's Factory from pumping itself or to strip a Cranial Plating off Affinity. Plus, Umezawa's Jitte sees play in a lot of decks (Zoo, Merfolk, etc.).

Personally, I like Maze of Ith over Kor Haven. I realize Kor Haven taps for a colorless, but it costs W1 to activate, so it seems like a 'win more' card.

[matunos]

Personally, I like Maze of Ith over Kor Haven. I realize Kor Haven taps for a colorless, but it costs W1 to activate, so it seems like a 'win more' card.

I was wondering the same thing, wrt Maze vs Kor Haven. On the pro side for the Haven is that I guess you can still have your blocker deal damage while being protected from the incoming attacker. On the pro side for the Maze, it makes for good general defense as well as a good pairing with an attacking Geist. Personally, I have a weakness against Bant with KotR and exalted, so a Maze would disrupt that as well. Then again, the main problem I have is getting my non-basics wasted from Knights fetching Wastelands...

Re dropping Riptide: I think it makes sense with a more aggressive deck. I've found that I generally only start thinking about bouncing wizards in the late game due to the cost, and Chu's deck wants to put more of a clock in place. Plus, you can still bounce your Vendilion (and Geist) with a Karakas if you have one, and bouncing and recasting a Vendilion seems like a more disruptive play in the long run, and for less mana (if you include the cost of snapcasting a spell; the same amount of mana otherwise, including the tapping of Karakas).

On the other hand, I have found uses for Academy Ruins in the mid game when I was running Engineered Explosives (when I was splashing red; currently I'm trying to go purer U/W with the Geists, though I also have the Trop and Krosans in the SB). But without recurring explosives, it becomes somewhat of an edge case. Recurring equipment would obviously be useful, but is it worth the slot for that?

[Water_Wizard]

I was wondering the same thing, wrt Maze vs Kor Haven. On the pro side for the Haven is that I guess you can still have your blocker deal damage while being protected from the incoming attacker. On the pro side for the Maze, it makes for good general defense as well as a good pairing with an attacking Geist. Personally, I have a weakness against Bant with KotR and exalted, so a Maze would disrupt that as well. Then again, the main problem I have is getting my non-basics wasted from Knights fetching Wastelands...

Re dropping Riptide: I think it makes sense with a more aggressive deck. I've found that I generally only start thinking about bouncing wizards in the late game due to the cost, and Chu's deck wants to put more of a clock in place. Plus, you can still bounce your Vendilion (and Geist) with a Karakas if you have one, and bouncing and recasting a Vendilion seems like a more disruptive play in the long run, and for less mana (if you include the cost of snapcasting a spell; the same amount of mana otherwise, including the tapping of Karakas).

On the other hand, I have found uses for Academy Ruins in the mid game when I was running Engineered Explosives (when I was splashing red; currently I'm trying to go purer U/W with the Geists, though I also have the Trop and Krosans in the SB). But without recurring explosives, it becomes somewhat of an edge case. Recurring equipment would obviously be useful, but is it worth the slot for that?

Chu cut Karakas as well, so no bouncing of Clique/Geist at all. I think for this deck, it is best to leave Maze of Ith/Kor Haven out.
The Tower of the Magistrate/Riptide Laboratory/Academy Ruins/Karakas situation warrants discussion. For Academy Ruins, I think this plays best in the Counterbalance/Enlightened Tutor deck, as you will have more artifacts and can fit in Tolaria West. Tower/Karakas is a meta decision - Tower to stop Batterskull and Karakas to stop Emrakul/Reanimator

I'm more interested in Chu's source of sideboard graveyard hate - Leyline of the Void over Surgical Extraction/Relic of Progenitus. I've played with Leyline's in this list and it just such a dead draw later in the game. Surgical is nice with Snapcaster. Perhaps I'll switch.

[matunos]

Also, Tower can protect your guys from Jitte counters and SoFI damage.

[matunos]

Chu cut Karakas as well, so no bouncing of Clique/Geist at all. I think for this deck, it is best to leave Maze of Ith/Kor Haven out.
The Tower of the Magistrate/Riptide Laboratory/Academy Ruins/Karakas situation warrants discussion. For Academy Ruins, I think this plays best in the Counterbalance/Enlightened Tutor deck, as you will have more artifacts and can fit in Tolaria West. Tower/Karakas is a meta decision - Tower to stop Batterskull and Karakas to stop Emrakul/Reanimator


I'm interested in knowing why the Maze isn't right for this deck. It certainly seems to be the consensus, but why?

Also, don't forget about Karakas vs Marit Lage ;-)

[Water_Wizard]

I'm interested in knowing why the Maze isn't right for this deck. It certainly seems to be the consensus, but why?

Also, don't forget about Karakas vs Marit Lage ;-)

True, Karakas does wreck Dark Depths, but so does Wasteland (pre-Marit Lage) and Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile / Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Shame that deck isn't seeing much play.

I think the reason Maze is wrong for this deck is 3 fold:
1. You want the threats off-board. You want to STP/PTE/WOG away creatures, not keep them on board and nullify them.
2. You have no way to search for Maze of Ith. In Maverick or Bant, you have Knight of the Reliquary and you can search for Maze at instant speed. In 40 Lands (which runs 4 Maze of Ith), you are dumping your entire library in your graveyard and can bring it back with Life from the Loam.
3. Maze of Ith produces no mana. In this deck, you need all your mana drops to count and an opener with 2 land and a Maze is not as good as an opener with 3 mana-producing land.

Also, Maze is dead against creature-less decks (Storm, Hive Mind, High Tide, Enchantress, combo, etc.). In a deck with KotR (or any other creature with a tap effect), you can attack with your creature and in response to combat damage, untap with the Maze. The damage still goes through and you can use your tap effect, basically giving your creature vigilance, so it's still not a completely dead card versus a creature-less deck (although should be boarded out).

[SupREME-10]

Congrats goes out to Tony Chu for pulling down another victory with U/W stoneblade (take a look, as he didn't use Karakas).

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2435

I like it; even if it does splash green.

[bkemke]

I'm trying to find a way to fit jitte into the main and am having trouble with what to remove.

I'm running SOFF and Batterskull as equipment and fairy version of the deck.

I've been thinking of moving a single Force of Will to the sideboard to accommodate the main deck jitte or going to 61 cards. Any opinions?

[Water_Wizard]

I'm trying to find a way to fit jitte into the main and am having trouble with what to remove.

I'm running SOFF and Batterskull as equipment and fairy version of the deck.

I've been thinking of moving a single Force of Will to the sideboard to accommodate the main deck jitte or going to 61 cards. Any opinions?

You could drop to 3 FOW. This guy did it: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23373_I_Love_Stoneblade_And_You_Should_Too.html and said it works well.

[bkemke]

You could drop to 3 FOW. This guy did it: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23373_I_Love_Stoneblade_And_You_Should_Too.html and said it works well.

Thanks, that's a really good article

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks, that's a really good article

This one's also pretty good, too: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html Enjoy!

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

22 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

10 Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Played this to a 3-1 finish tonight.

Thopters (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)
Burn (2-1)
Combo Elves (2-1)

It's more of a tempo build. Any recommendations? I've preferred this version over the clunky lists with tons of manlands and no Dazes.

[Bignasty197]

22 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

10 Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Played this to a 3-1 finish tonight.

Thopters (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)
Burn (2-1)
Combo Elves (2-1)

It's more of a tempo build. Any recommendations? I've preferred this version over the clunky lists with tons of manlands and no Dazes.

I like your list, but have you found 2 Jaces to be enough? I like at least 3, even with a more tempo oriented approach.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I think two is the correct number. I chose to run a Crucible of Worlds over the third Jace to have some late game inevitability in case the tempo plan didn't work out (this route panned out well.)

My hand was never flooded with extra copies. I typically drew into him so he wasn't pitched to Force of Will too often.

[Bignasty197]

That works. I really like the inclusion of Stifle in here because sometimes it wins games by itself. Snapcasting back a Stifle is dirty also.

EDIT: I have found Daze to be incredibly useful against Maverick. Zenith effectively makes their creatures cost an additional mana, so Daze shines. Post board you can Daze to reset Islands after Choke.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The only thing I missed was not having some sort of Disenchant effect. But yeah, Stifle as a 4-of with Snapcaster is fucking sick.

Tapping out for a turn two SFM with Daze backup is such a great feeling.

[Djz05]

Heres my decklist so far for scgdc.



T1 UW Stoneblade
60 cards, 15 sideboard
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
23 lands


4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
11 creatures


3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
26 other spells


Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Wrath of God
3 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
15 sideboard cards

Created with Decked Builder

Still undecided about the sb if i should put in mind break traps for the storm matchup.
Im wondering also if I should switch out the ancestral visions for dazes instead. Theyve always been great during the mid/late game after killing or countering threats that gets played.

Also, what about using inkmoths instead of factories? The flying can help me get there against groundstalls, especially with equipment.
Sent from my iPhone

[matunos]

The only thing I missed was not having some sort of Disenchant effect. But yeah, Stifle as a 4-of with Snapcaster is fucking sick.

Tapping out for a turn two SFM with Daze backup is such a great feeling.

I'm skeptical. Against control, SFM can be snared, so if you were on the draw, your opponent can afford the 1. Or, they can StP the SFM next turn and now you're not only set back a land, but left with an Equipment you can't play for another 2 turns at the minimum (assuming you fetched the Batterskull and have another SFM handy). And if you're tapping out on T2 to play your business, you're not able to Stifle their fetches. If they know you're playing Stifle, they're going to fetch when you're tapped out. Finally, in the mirror, by playing the Daze instead of FoW, you've telegraphed that you're probably not holding a FoW, so they can make their move (were it me, I'd assume you still have removal and probably fetch for a Jitte or Sword; and if I get an early Jitte active against you, you're toast).

I also think 2 Jace is probably correct. Or probably no Jaces. RUG Delver doesn't play any Jace because Jace takes 4 mana. If you're relying on Daze for tempo, you're going to reach 4 mana slower than a normal Stoneblade deck (or, more likely, you're going to be holding a lot of Dazes). Other decks with Jace are going to get there first, either because they drew out a Daze from you to put you back a land, or simply because they run 3 Jaces (and often an Elspeth, so there's that too).

Daze and Stifle get progressively worse as the game goes on (and Daze becomes a really ugly Snapcaster target) while real control spells get better, so I'm also skeptical of how great the synergy is with Snapcaster mage. What exactly are you stifling at that point? The opponent's Snapcaster/Vendilion/SFM triggers? I don't think that's enough. I'd rather be flashing back real counters and removal in the late game, like your opponents will be.

You don't have nearly enough cheap threats to keep up with Zoo, Maverick or RUG Delver. Great, you stifled their fetch. You still don't have any threats out, so they're going to develop faster than you will.

In other words, I think control/mirror is going to sit back and out-control you, and I think aggro is going to out-aggro you. I wasn't playing Stoneblade (or Landstill) in the days of Mental Misstep, but the consensus (for what that's worth) seems to be that Stoneblade is not competitive as aggro-control post-MM. If you want a tempo deck, I think you'd be better off dropping the Stoneblade package altogether and playing Delver.

That's just my $0.02, though. If you stick with the list, I'm curious how it works out for you outside the realm of speculation. And if you prove me wrong, maybe I'll try it too. ;-)

[matunos]

Still undecided about the sb if i should put in mind break traps for the storm matchup.
Im wondering also if I should switch out the ancestral visions for dazes instead. Theyve always been great during the mid/late game after killing or countering threats that gets played.

Also, what about using inkmoths instead of factories? The flying can help me get there against groundstalls, especially with equipment.
Sent from my iPhone

If you're worried about storm, I think Flusterstorm is more versatile. But really you have enough general purpose counters anyway that neither should be necessary. Actually, that's not true, you don't have enough counters, as I see you're playing only 2 Spell Snares, 2 Counterspells and 4 FoW. But if you're not going to add 2 more counters of some sort main deck, I'd add some Spell Pierces or Mana Leaks in the side. (I think Spell Pierce is more useful than Flusterstorm in general because it can target more spells [artifacts, enchantments, certain planeswalkers against which you have no removal], and except when countering a storm chain, Flusterstorm is often payable for 2 anyway.)

The problem with Inkmoths, IMO, is that they have no synergy with anything else in the deck, because nothing else has infect. So, you either need to ping your opponent 10 times with Inkmoths for the win (or equip them, which will get expensive since you're not running SoFF main), or else having them at all was useless. BTW, why aren't you running SoFF main? I think it's better in general than SoFI, except against decks where the pro red/blue is obviously useful. Inkmoths don't make very good blockers because they're 1/1 and not pumpable like Mishra's (unless you are also playing Blinkmoth, but can you really afford to do that to your mana base?) and they don't have any other useful quirks like Mutavault has with Spellstutters and Riptide. All that, and they're over 5x more expensive than 4E Mishra's.

Mishra's may not always be able to attack (IMO, they're more useful for defense unless/until you can put a sword on them), but when they do, they deal normal damage like anyone else, can pump each other, and can pump themselves to 3/3 when blocking. If you're playing Spellstutters, then Mutavault has its obvious uses, but otherwise I think Mishra's outclasses it.

I think Academy Ruins loses its luster when you're not playing Engineered Explosives (which itself loses its luster if you're not splashing a 3rd color). Relying on it to recur your equipment is going to leave you disappointed most of the time when you either don't draw the ruins, or you draw it when you don't want it (or it gets wasted). You need other strategies to protect your equipment; or board out your Batterskull if you can't support it (again I will mention that you have two fewer counters than most U/W Stoneblade decks). I would consider either Riptide Academy or Tower of the Magistrate, depending on the meta (and I would be surprised if you don't run into a lot of mirror matches at SCG).

3 Disenchants in the SB seems like 1 too many. If you're concerned about the mirror, I think there are better options, like Geist of Saint Traft and Tower of the Magistrate. Mainly, I think the echantment/artifact hate is for problematic cards like Choke. But Disenchant won't get you out of a Countertop lock (which is one of the places where Krosan's Grip's 3cc comes in handy). I would consider replacing a Disenchant with an O-Ring, if you can't fit an O-Ring in main.

The Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, and I've been thinking about trying him out in the sideboard (I currently have a Llewan auditioning there), but an O-Ring may prove more useful in the main deck. His ability to replicate a Batterskull is nice (if that's what he's there for), but I don't think it justifies playing him main. I'd think of it as a bonus against a deck you want him in for, in case their business (Progenitus, Emrakul, Geist [but he can just as easily be stopped by a Snapcaster], etc.) doesn't work out.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm skeptical. Against control, SFM can be snared, so if you were on the draw, your opponent can afford the 1. Or, they can StP the SFM next turn and now you're not only set back a land, but left with an Equipment you can't play for another 2 turns at the minimum (assuming you fetched the Batterskull and have another SFM handy). And if you're tapping out on T2 to play your business, you're not able to Stifle their fetches. If they know you're playing Stifle, they're going to fetch when you're tapped out. Finally, in the mirror, by playing the Daze instead of FoW, you've telegraphed that you're probably not holding a FoW, so they can make their move (were it me, I'd assume you still have removal and probably fetch for a Jitte or Sword; and if I get an early Jitte active against you, you're toast).

I also think 2 Jace is probably correct. Or probably no Jaces. RUG Delver doesn't play any Jace because Jace takes 4 mana. If you're relying on Daze for tempo, you're going to reach 4 mana slower than a normal Stoneblade deck (or, more likely, you're going to be holding a lot of Dazes). Other decks with Jace are going to get there first, either because they drew out a Daze from you to put you back a land, or simply because they run 3 Jaces (and often an Elspeth, so there's that too).

Daze and Stifle get progressively worse as the game goes on (and Daze becomes a really ugly Snapcaster target) while real control spells get better, so I'm also skeptical of how great the synergy is with Snapcaster mage. What exactly are you stifling at that point? The opponent's Snapcaster/Vendilion/SFM triggers? I don't think that's enough. I'd rather be flashing back real counters and removal in the late game, like your opponents will be.

You don't have nearly enough cheap threats to keep up with Zoo, Maverick or RUG Delver. Great, you stifled their fetch. You still don't have any threats out, so they're going to develop faster than you will.

In other words, I think control/mirror is going to sit back and out-control you, and I think aggro is going to out-aggro you. I wasn't playing Stoneblade (or Landstill) in the days of Mental Misstep, but the consensus (for what that's worth) seems to be that Stoneblade is not competitive as aggro-control post-MM. If you want a tempo deck, I think you'd be better off dropping the Stoneblade package altogether and playing Delver.

That's just my $0.02, though. If you stick with the list, I'm curious how it works out for you outside the realm of speculation. And if you prove me wrong, maybe I'll try it too. ;-)

So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

[Dzra]

So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

It's not just different play styles, it's what your deck is good at. A tempo deck doesn't have time to fool around with Stoneforge this, equip that. A tempo deck's job is to drop a dumb beater and ride it to victory while using tempo positive cards like Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. It seems to me like matunos is trying to be helpful and you are getting sassy. Every successful Stoneblade list to my knowledge has gone the "controlling route" whereas every successful tempo deck I've heard of runs Tarmogoyf or Aether Vial.

And @Djz05, drop the Ancestrals (or board them) for 2 more Spell Snares and then whatever else you like... maybe a Spell Pierce? And change out the Marsh Flats for another Blue fetch. Phyrexian Metamorph might be cool, but it might just be better as a Spell Pierce or Vendilion Clique. The SoFI should probably also switch with the SoFF since Maverick is a real threat.

I'm still a bit torn myself between Disenchant and Oblivion Ring. Disenchant is better in every way against artifacts and enchantments, but O-Ring just hits everything... meaning I don't just have to board it in against decks with a bunch of artifacts/enchantments, I can board it against Merfolk (and either hit a dude or a Vial/Jitte), RUG tempo (creatures or Sylvan Library), Zoo (creatures or Library), etc. Against those decks, I doubt I can afford to board in Disenchant, but Oblivion Ring can slide right in and fill any role. However, against decks that run multiple problem artifacts/enchantments, Disenchant is instant, cheaper, doesn't sit on the battlefield, and reusable via Snapcaster.

[Djz05]

Yeah im taking out the visions for some more counters. Same with the sword, going to mb feast or famine. The metamorph, disenchant, ruins im still on the fence. Got a couple more playtesting the next few days and see how i feel about it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm not convinced yet. I believe you can play the tempo role with Stoneforge Mystic.

Give it a shot. When you play Stifle, it really plays as a different deck.

[Dzra]

I have tried it. The problem I was having is that I Stifle some fetches, Daze some stuff, maybe Wasteland and then I sit there for two or three turns because I can't seal the game. Meanwhile, they rebuild and then we are back on equal footing.

The best case I can think of is t1 Stifle, t2 Stoneforge, Daze them, t3 Batterskull/Wasteland them, and ride to victory. The problem with that though is that if you're disrupted anywhere although the way, you get really behind. They play a basic, can't Stifle, they Spell Snare/remove your Mystic, now you have no action for the next 3 turns, they Daze/FoW/Pierce you back or maybe they fetched basics while you tapped down, etc, etc...

If you're running Goyf/Goblin Guide and Delver, you have multiple cheap threats to get in there. And once they finally deal with your threats, you have 4-12 Bolt-effects to finish them off. Stoneblade has none of that, so when you stumble or they play around Stifle/Daze, you can't recover. If you want to play Stifleblade, go ahead, but in mine (and other's) testing, it just doesn't get there often enough. In my opinion, even the optimal Stifle decks (RUG or UR Delver) don't even get there often enough against the meta full of Stoneblade, Maverick, and Reanimator.

[Bignasty197]

For those of you dismissing Stifle; test the list. There are some hands that you can just crush with Stifle/Wasteland. How many opening hands do opponents keep consisting of Dual, Fetch, Brainstorm, other stuff? Probably quite a lot. Stifle seems great in the mirror as well. It turns SFM into Squire and Snapcaster into a flashy Coral Merfolk. All I'm saying is test the list before you bash it.

[unemployer]

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

[Djz05]

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

Its been done and tried before. Check post #542 a few pages back to see some decklists. I personally think it just dillutes the deck but then ive been used to playing counterbalance-thopters without creatures.

[Water_Wizard]

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

Countertop is a different list and has a different thread. Since you really need 4 Sensei's Diving Top and 4 Counterbalance to run Countertop effectively, it changes the UW Stoneblade build significantly. They are both control lists and share similar colors, but UW Stoneblade is more aggressive. Countertop is one of the most control oriented decks available in Legacy and usually relies on Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek or Jace's ultimate for the kill.

Here is the thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13716-Archetype-CounterTop

Here is a similar thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20529-PRIMER-U-W-x-Countertop-Superfriends

Here is a good, recent UWb Countertop list: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=78478

Hope this helps.

[matunos]

So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

Actually I'm not talking about personal preferences. I'm saying that I'm skeptical that a tempo-oriented U/W Stoneblade build will work well.

Of course tempo strategies don't want a late game, that was my point about Jace. Jace is a late game card, and you're not only playing 22 lands, but also relying on Dazes. So why not drop Jace and put in some more cheap threats, like some certain powerful blue one-drops?

You may say there are always relevant Stifle targets, but you have to agree that Stifle (and Daze) get worse to useless as the game goes late, and it's not like you have an unlimited supply of FoWs. So if you really want to follow a tempo path, I think you'd want to take a page from Delver's book and drop Jace altogether. If your opponent can get to turn 5-6 where they can drop a Jace on you, chances you've lost already anyway.

Your tempo strategy seems to hinge on landing an early Batterskull. What other wincon do you have that early? But that won't be active until turn 3 under the best of conditions (since you have no mana acceleration), and one timely StP or artifact hate will end that chapter. Delver can be swinging at you for 6 or more by turn 3, along with burn. By turn 4-5, you're dead. Can your deck do that? When your chief removal card is giving the opponent life... I find it unlikely (that's my somewhat snarky way of saying I think PtE makes more sense for you than StP; but burn would be even better).

But, like I said, if it's working for you in your meta and you enjoy it, then do what works. I am certainly willing to be proven wrong. I suspect others will have difficulty in reproducing your success, but that's just my opinion.

[matunos]

For those of you dismissing Stifle; test the list. There are some hands that you can just crush with Stifle/Wasteland. How many opening hands do opponents keep consisting of Dual, Fetch, Brainstorm, other stuff? Probably quite a lot. Stifle seems great in the mirror as well. It turns SFM into Squire and Snapcaster into a flashy Coral Merfolk. All I'm saying is test the list before you bash it.

Will I keep an opening hand with a fetch, a dual and a brainstorm? In an unknown matchup, probably. But as I've said, once I know you have Stifle, I'm going to be more judicious about cracking my fetches instead of just going for a blind Brainstorm+fetch while you have blue mana open (unless I don't care so much about losing the fetch), and if my fetches are less reliable, I want to be relying on my duals even less.

But you have to tap it at some point, or else you're slowing your own game down, which is to my advantage. Meanwhile I also have manlands (I play 4 Mishra's) to put my own early pressure on you if needs be (I don't usually like swinging in with Mishra's as I want them more for defense and mana, but if I sense an opening and can afford the possible mana loss, I'll take a bite). Plus, I will have more real counters pre- and post-board than you do, to fend you off as well as protect my own guys from such antics.

All of this being said, RaNDoMxGeSTuReS may want to consider some mana acceleration (maybe in place of Jace?), since landing an early Batterskull is almost mandatory to win.

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.

[aznepyon7]

Will I keep an opening hand with a fetch, a dual and a brainstorm? In an unknown matchup, probably. But as I've said, once I know you have Stifle, I'm going to be more judicious about cracking my fetches instead of just going for a blind Brainstorm+fetch while you have blue mana open (unless I don't care so much about losing the fetch), and if my fetches are less reliable, I want to be relying on my duals even less.

But you have to tap it at some point, or else you're slowing your own game down, which is to my advantage. Meanwhile I also have manlands (I play 4 Mishra's) to put my own early pressure on you if needs be (I don't usually like swinging in with Mishra's as I want them more for defense and mana, but if I sense an opening and can afford the possible mana loss, I'll take a bite). Plus, I will have more real counters pre- and post-board than you do, to fend you off as well as protect my own guys from such antics.

All of this being said, RaNDoMxGeSTuReS may want to consider some mana acceleration (maybe in place of Jace?), since landing an early Batterskull is almost mandatory to win.

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.

I've heard somewhere that it is acceptable for 1 Ponder and 1 land hands but not Brainstorm.

I agree that making it slightly faster isn't really tempo.

[matunos]

I've heard somewhere that it is acceptable for 1 Ponder and 1 land hands but not Brainstorm.

Ponder offers you the opportunity to shuffle without needing a fetch. With Brainstorm, you want a fetch for that shuffle option.

However, Stoneblade doesn't play Ponders, and even if it did, I would probably not keep a hand with only one land and a Ponder, because missing an early land drop can be devastating, and even with the free shuffle you're still hoping to top-deck a land in two draws. Too risky for my taste.

If I don't see at least two color-producing lands (or fetches) in my opening hand, I almost invariably mull.

[dan who?]

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.

I agree, just because there are stifles and dazes doesn't make that a tempo build and vialing out a batterskull isn't really a tempo play. If you want to it be more tempo oriented I guess you'll have to add delver and cut Jace or something but I don't really see that being a great game plan but hey, if it works for you keep doing it then. Don't let us tell you otherwise.

On another note, I don't have issues waiting till I have counter backup to drop a SFM or Jace, or wait for my opp to run out of gas. I feel like I have plenty of uses for my mana that I can wait till it's safe to drop a wincon. I see it time and time again however (especially under the camera at SCG events) of people playing SFM on turn 2 with no backup and it gets killed, then they lose with equipment still in hand. The way I see it is this is more of a control deck, play it like so.

[Shaka1333]

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

4 Flooted strand
3 Scalding tarn
1 Arid mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Elspeth, knight errant
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of feast and famine

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
2 Wrath of god
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical extraction
1 Timely reinforcements
1 Umezama's jitte

Side in/side out vary according to your opponent, his version and if you are on the play or the the draw.

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Stoneblade :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disenchant
- 3/4 Force of Will, 2/3 Swords to Plowshares

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

[matunos]

Congrats on the 4th place finish!

How's your experience with Timely Reinforcemets been? I've thought about trying that myself. Did that replace any alternatives you considered, and if so, why?

[Water_Wizard]

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

Congrats on the finish!

My thoughts:
Why would you take out Spell Snare against RUG Tempo? Especially if you are going 2nd - It stops Goyf, Snapcaster and Fire//Ice (if they play it). I would leave in Spell Snare and keep WOG in the board. Also, I'm not sold on Timely Reinforcements - at best, you are buying yourself some chump blockers against Goyf and Thresed Mongoose and soldier tokens don't fly to block Delver.

Maverick - I would definitely bring in Jitte. Against what builds would you bring in Spell Pierce? Against Choke?

Reanimator - I would leave in all 3 Spell Snare, as most of their reanimation spells are 2 cc (Animate Dead & Exhume) - From you list, I would go +1 Spell Snare, +1 Jace (just for the bounce and to pitch to FOW), - 2 Geist or Counterspell (I'm not sold on counterspell, as you already have 4 FOW, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Pyro, 1 REB and 3 Spell Snare)

ANT - Why not take out the remaining 2 Jaces for 2 Surgicals? When would you tap out to play Jace? Personally, I've casted Jace against ANT before, but it was a game I already won due to my opponent's poor draws. I would need 5-6 land to play a Jace and against ANT, that's just not practical.

Dredge - Why are you taking out STP and Lightning Bolt? Bolts are good against Pit Imps and Narcomebas and STPs take care of Ichorids and huge Trolls. I would +2 Bolt, +2 STP, -2 Jace, -2 Geist (you seem to really like Geist, I notice you never take him out - not even against Maverick - Geist shines in the mirror and against RUG, but against any kind of deck with 20+ creatures, you should consider taking him out)

Zoo looks good, except I would do -4 FOW, -2 Geist. Against big zoo, what are you bringing the Pierces in against? GSZ, Choke?

Do you miss not having PTE in the sideboard? I'm sure the maindeck Lightning Bolts help, but I would switch the Timely Reinforcement for a PTE or a 2nd Disenchant.

[Shaka1333]

Well, thank you for your comments !

First, i must say that I'm playing Legacy only since one year, not playtesting that often and Legacy being such a diverse format, i'm obviously lacking experience.

I was excepting around 25% of "Burn" decks (RUG Tempo, UR Counterburn, Burn and Zoo) and against these decks i feel like it's the best card i can cast as gaining 6 life is huge and having 3 chumpblockers to game more life and time is also great, without mentioning the possibility to Snapcast the card. You have a better late game against these decks so your main concern is to live long enough to take advantage of that better late game and Timely Reinforcements does exactly that.

I'm not completly sold on Timely Reinforcements though ... a 3rd Bolt in the sideboard might be better.

Against RUG Tempo : In France, nearly nobody plays Snapcaster in RUG. Everybody plays Nimble Mangoose instead and the average number of Fire/Ice is probably 2. So i don't want to have situational cards like Spell Snare that can counter only a few spells. I'm not sure on WoG yet, but having two more outs to Nimble Mangoose (a nightmare for Stoneblade) and a potential blowout seems good enough.

Against Maverick : You are totally right on Jitte. As TKDoko mentioned, Spell Pierce seems good enough on playtests to be playable against Maverick to counter problematic spells like Sylvan Library, Choke, GSZ and Elsepth.

Against Reanimator : You are also right. I didn't know which last cards i had to side out. I blindly chose Spell Snare because i feel like that have so many reanimation spells that the fight should be more on countering their way to put creatures in the GY or around Surgical Extraction. But, it's essential to buy you as much time as possible in the early game so Spell Snare shouldn't be sided out as you noticed. I haven't testing Geist against Reanimator actually so I need more testing to choose between Geist, Jace and Counterspell.

Against ANT : Jace is indeed my worst card after sideboard but i really don't like Extraction. I feel like the only rare cases Extraction will make me win games (extracting away their Cabal Ritual or Infernal Tutor on PiF or make them "discard" a key card in their hand) are less likely than needing a blue card to pitch on FoW and the cases where i have SOFAF untaping effect (basically your best aggro plan) where the Brainstorm of Jace refill your hand into an unbreakable wall of counterspells. I might be wrong though. I'm also considering keeping 1 or 2 more Swords to Plowshares against Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant but this plan seems like a risky gambit game 2 as the ANT can also be playing Carpet of Flowers or Defense Grid instead of Xantid Swarm...

Against Dredge : I'm really unexperienced in this match up but i feel like with your sideboarding, if i take a Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, i only have 4 1/2 and 4 2/1 left to kill which seems to bit light to say the least ^^;. I'm not a big fan of Bolt and StP here. I know that Bolt can remove Bridges et StP exiles Ichorid, but if Ichorid starts to matter, it means that your opponent is already dredging at least 5 or 6 a turn, and spots removals against "endless" steams of free creatures doesn't seem great... But, on the other hand, you want to but as much time as possible so spot removal might be usefull in the early game ...

Against a bad big Zoo playing GSZ, Choke and Elsepth, Spell Pierces are a reasonable possibility imo.

[Water_Wizard]

Well, thank you for your comments !

I'm not completly sold on Timely Reinforcements though ... a 3rd Bolt in the sideboard might be better.

Against RUG Tempo : In France, nearly nobody plays Snapcaster in RUG. Everybody plays Nimble Mangoose instead and the average number of Fire/Ice is probably 2. So i don't want to have situational cards like Spell Snare that can counter only a few spells. I'm not sure on WoG yet, but having two more outs to Nimble Mangoose (a nightmare for Stoneblade) and a potential blowout seems good enough.

Against Reanimator : You are also right. I didn't know which last cards i had to side out. I blindly chose Spell Snare because i feel like that have so many reanimation spells that the fight should be more on countering their way to put creatures in the GY or around Surgical Extraction. But, it's essential to buy you as much time as possible in the early game so Spell Snare shouldn't be sided out as you noticed. I haven't testing Geist against Reanimator actually so I need more testing to choose between Geist, Jace and Counterspell.

Against ANT : Jace is indeed my worst card after sideboard but i really don't like Extraction. I feel like the only rare cases Extraction will make me win games (extracting away their Cabal Ritual or Infernal Tutor on PiF or make them "discard" a key card in their hand) are less likely than needing a blue card to pitch on FoW and the cases where i have SOFAF untaping effect (basically your best aggro plan) where the Brainstorm of Jace refill your hand into an unbreakable wall of counterspells. I might be wrong though. I'm also considering keeping 1 or 2 more Swords to Plowshares against Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant but this plan seems like a risky gambit game 2 as the ANT can also be playing Carpet of Flowers or Defense Grid instead of Xantid Swarm...

Against Dredge : I'm really unexperienced in this match up but i feel like with your sideboarding, if i take a Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, i only have 4 1/2 and 4 2/1 left to kill which seems to bit light to say the least ^^;. I'm not a big fan of Bolt and StP here. I know that Bolt can remove Bridges et StP exiles Ichorid, but if Ichorid starts to matter, it means that your opponent is already dredging at least 5 or 6 a turn, and spots removals against "endless" steams of free creatures doesn't seem great... But, on the other hand, you want to but as much time as possible so spot removal might be usefull in the early game ...

You may want to consider PTE over Lightning Bolt - If you are expecting any Nic Fit, Maverick, Tarmogoyfs or Tombstalkers, Lightning Bolt just won't get it done. Also, for decks that are running no basics (RUG, Team America, etc), PTE is better than STP. Finally, the PTE removal is relevant versus Veteran Explorer, Academy Rector, Bridge from Below, etc. (anything you don't want the creature to hit the yard).

Versus RUG Tempo, I'm running Mishra's Factories in my list, so I can always block, pump and exchange with Mongoose (or if I have two factories, pump one to 4/4 and survive vs. Mongoose). I understand your point that Mongoose is hard to kill...

Against Reanimator, let me know what your playtesting shows is the best to take out - Geist, Counterspell or Jace.

Against ANT, ask yourself, when are they hoping to go off? Turn 3? Is Jace really practical? If you hit turn 4 (4 mana in play), are you going to tap out to play Jace? I'm not even sure I would do that with 2 FOW + 2 blue cards in hand. Regarding leaving the STPs in, I understand your point and sometimes I will leave STP in against ANT if I know they have Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm in the board (I think Confidant is more common, as it doesn't cause ANT to pick up an extra color - if Counterbalance becomes popular, ANT will run green for Krosan Grip, so Swarm will become more common). You are already running 2 Lightning Bolt and Jitte can also be a good sideboard card against ANT - it kills their creatures, gives you life and speeds up your clock. Surgical Extraction can be good to make them 'discard' (as you mention), but it can also force them to shuffle, messing up Brainstorm or Ponder effects. Additionally, after an Ad Nauseam (and you've seen what they've drawn), you can Surgical Extraction, or in response to a Cabal Ritual to remove Threshold or in response to Ill-Gotten Gains. It's just a really nice trick that ANT decks aren't always expecting...

Against Dredge, read the relevant part of this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html It basically says to kill Narcomebas and Ichorids, because they really don't have any other creatures with which to generate tokens.

[Kanadell~]

Hi! I'm new into playing this deck, because i've always played aggro decks like Merfolk, burn, and affinity. I recently turned into control (because I had an UB Control deck in standard and I liked it a lot) but I find this deck so much hard to play due to the number of decisions to take.

Maybe it will seem a bit nooby question, but, can someone give me some tips/advices of how should I play this control deck, what decisions I should I take to make my game better and how to optimize my brainstorms?

[MadMaximus]

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

4 Flooted strand
3 Scalding tarn
1 Arid mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Elspeth, knight errant
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of feast and famine

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
2 Wrath of god
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical extraction
1 Timely reinforcements
1 Umezama's jitte

Side in/side out vary according to your opponent, his version and if you are on the play or the the draw.

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Stoneblade :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disenchant
- 3/4 Force of Will, 2/3 Swords to Plowshares

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

That List seems really sweet, but I have some points on it:

1. Did you miss the manlands (not playing them anymore because of too often losing your lands to spot removal? and did you upp the wasteland count to mana-screw your opponent or just to more reliably remove utility lands (second seems better, our deck isn't that good at mana-screwing the opponent without good ol' stifle)?
2. How has Geist performed for you? In which matchups does he shine? Is it really worth to go under 2 Cliques to play him? I would suggest a split of 2/2, but that would increase the count of mana-hungry spells too heavily... I mean, Clique is that good against combo and the mirror, so I really can't imagine our deck without it and 1 seems very situational.
3. Is 9 a good amount of counters? I really find myself wanting at least 10 (I play 11) in the maindeck to have a good preboard-win-percentage against combo and such decks as burn with price of progress, for which you really need the spell snares.

On sideboard:
1. Are pyroblasts that good against combo other than spiral tide? A split of spell pierce and pyroblasts like you play it seems to be the best for me.
2. You sideout batterskull against maverick but leave the mystics in? Are you sure on that? My sideboard strategy against maverick, which is heavily played here in Germany is rather siding out the complete mystic package to blank their artifact removal and loading up on mass removal, elspeth (play 1 main and 1 in the board) and so on, but my problem here is: I just can't win the third game in time :(

So, this was my first post on The Source.
Sorry for all my mistakes made, they were not intended.

[Water_Wizard]

Hi! I'm new into playing this deck, because i've always played aggro decks like Merfolk, burn, and affinity. I recently turned into control (because I had an UB Control deck in standard and I liked it a lot) but I find this deck so much hard to play due to the number of decisions to take.

Maybe it will seem a bit nooby question, but, can someone give me some tips/advices of how should I play this control deck, what decisions I should I take to make my game better and how to optimize my brainstorms?

To start with, read these articles:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23373_I_Love_Stoneblade_And_You_Should_Too.html
And you can watch these videos, too: http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=335 http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=62

General strategy depends on what you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo, you want a heavy counter hand to counter their combo pieces. Mid-range, a mix of removal and counterspell. Against another control deck, you want to drop a Jace or Geist to gain card/board advantage.

Regarding brainstorm, ideally, you want to be able to use a fetchland to shuffle cards away. For example, brainstorm, put two worthless cards back on top, crack fetch, shuffle and draw a new card during your next draw step. Brainstorm also depends on what you are looking for. Early game, it may be a land, mid game, a Swords to Plowshares, late game a Jace, WOG or Batterskull to finish out the game.

[Shaka1333]

I know PtE is sometimes awesome, actually the best removal in some cases but in other cases it's just awful. "Pathing" a T2 Stoneforge is just so awful as you can die on Jace, Thrun, Elsepth or whatever 4cc bomb the next turn and in general giving a free land against 60 to 75 % of the field ... i just hate that. If you play straight UW, you have no other choice so you play PtE in your sideboard and/or a few main but when you play UWr, Lightning Bolt seems strictly better. I agree that it doesn't kill everything but it still kills around 80% of the played creatures and having the possibility to kill a Jace and finish off your opponent is a nice bonus.

Against ANT, i was thinking playing Jace on Turn 4 before untapping with SOFAF effect but you are probably right, Surgical Extraction is very likely better here.

I know that Mishra's Factory is great against Nimble Mangoose and other small creatures, that's why i was playing straight UW initially with 7 colorless lands but i was mulliganing too much and having some problems to get two blue and white so i deciding to cut some colorless lands. In case of someone is wondering, playing 3 colors with 3 colorless lands is more stable than playing 2 with 7/8 colorless lands thanks to fetch and dual lands mana base.

I decided to play only Wasteland in those 3 colorless lands because Wasteland is simply the best lands in Legacy. It kills problematic lands my Maze of Ith, Grove, man lands etc... and win game by itself every now and then. No other colorless lands is comparable imho. Playing 2 or 4 colorless lands might be the right number though.

Geist have been really amazing in nearly every single game i have been playing. I was very sceptical at first, like nearly everybody i guess, but truth is he won't leave my main deck any time soon. With 6 spot removal, Jace bounce, equipements and counters, it's not that hard to remove blockers. He fasten the clock like no other card can and he is basically good against everything. He is at his worst against heavy creatures decks and fast combos but even against these decks, it can win game sometimes. However, i am missing a bit Vendilion Clique and a 2/2 split is possible but probably a bit too manavore as you noticed.

Concerning the number of counters, it really depends of your metagame and your version. I basically cut a Spell Snare of a Bolt which is reasonable with my Geist version but playing 4 Spell Snare is good too.

Pyroblast is also awesome against any Show and Tell deck, but i prefer a split with Spell Pierce against decks like ANT or Dredge and to increase diversity.

I need a bit more experience against Maverick to be sold on my sideboard but Jitte and SOFAF seem a little better than Batterskull. With Geist your 2 Elsepth as a kill plan may be very good, but without Geist, it must be very hard to win game 3 in time as you said. I'm not sure you should remove SFM package here. "Blanking their artefact removal" is not that great against this deck because their artefact removal is Qasali and it is still a decent creature even if you don't have artefact in your deck anymore, it's not like if they would side in Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip. SOFAF is also a great answer against Choke, one of our worst nightmare ;).

Anyway MadMaximus, don't worry ! Du sprichst sehr gut englisch ;)

[Water_Wizard]

I know PtE is sometimes awesome, actually the best removal in some cases but in other cases it's just awful. "Pathing" a T2 Stoneforge is just so awful as you can die on Jace, Thrun, Elsepth or whatever 4cc bomb the next turn and in general giving a free land against 60 to 75 % of the field ... i just hate that. If you play straight UW, you have no other choice so you play PtE in your sideboard and/or a few main but when you play UWr, Lightning Bolt seems strictly better. I agree that it doesn't kill everything but it still kills around 80% of the played creatures and having the possibility to kill a Jace and finish off your opponent is a nice bonus.

...
I know that Mishra's Factory is great against Nimble Mangoose and other small creatures, that's why i was playing straight UW initially with 7 colorless lands but i was mulliganing too much and having some problems to get two blue and white so i deciding to cut some colorless lands. In case of someone is wondering, playing 3 colors with 3 colorless lands is more stable than playing 2 with 7/8 colorless lands thanks to fetch and dual lands mana base.


I agree with your decisions here. Bolt is probably better against the majority of the field and the ability to go to the dome is huge - especially if you can snap it back, you could deal a good amount of damage and speed up the game a turn or two.

Good call on your manabase. I agree, in 3 color, it is more important to be consistent than to try to fit man-lands and colored mana together. Your manabase looks solid.

[MadMaximus]

Ok, regarding the additional spot removal I am in the tank right now about it, have tried out 3 lightning bolts in the past, but I dislike my used manabase with manlands, wastelands, volcanics and the mountain. Is the mountain really needed, it acts effectively as another colorless source most of the time.
I am very much settled on wanting to play 6 spot removal pre board in my deck, but the question is: 2 Path to Exile or 2 Lightning Bolt? Path To Exile seems better, because when you play 2 the occasions on which you draw it in the early game seem rather rare and there are a few decks which don't even run basics out there. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt has some other sweet uses, as you mentioned killing a planeswalker or even with snapcaster deal 6 damage and speeding up the clock immensely.
So, is there a consensus on that issue?

[matunos]

I know it's not snappable, but how about an O-Ring, for those hard-to-reach areas?

[MadMaximus]

I know it's not snappable, but how about an O-Ring, for those hard-to-reach areas?

I am playing UWr right now and probably will keep all the 3 colors 'til the german meta has shifted away largely from what it is right now with many UR Delver decks, Spiral Tide, Maverick and the mirror, mostly.
So, for problematic permanents like choke I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the Sideboard and I love that card, it is superflexible.
It can act as additional mass removal, or "only" spot removal for problematic creatures like delver first turn or mother of runes (important) but also having paid 3 for it, I can hit choke or other permanents which would influence the game state heavily in my opponent's favor.

So, imo, the Explosives are the best solution for UWr. The O-Ring could be interesting for me if I played straight UW, but I am concerned about the mana costs of it, 3 is too much for an additional spot removal, which can only hit one permanent.
In the early game you just can't afford spending 3 mana on removing, let's say a knight, because having tapped out, the opponent would be able to cast anything he wants next turn (assuming you don't have force of will ready, which I would never board out against maverick by the way)

My removal suite is essentially: 4 Sword to Plowshares, 2 Lightning Bolts (main)
2 Path To Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Wrath Of God (board)
Pretty much the amount of removal I want to play, but as you see I am not completely sure about the structure.

What are your removal suites?

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey guys so this is my latest Stoneblade List. I have decided to take out the red splash and trying Geist of Saint Traft. Thoughts?
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snpcaster Mage
2 Vendlion Clique
1 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
2 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Tower of Magistrate
1 Karakas
3 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Force of Will

I have opted for the Surgical over Purify the Grave as it's much better against Dredge and Storm. I'm also finding Wasteland pretty average in this deck and maybe even cut down to 1 but seems good with the Crucible so will keep at 2. Preordain has been amazing for me so far.

[Water_Wizard]

(assuming you don't have force of will ready, which I would never board out against maverick by the way)

My removal suite is essentially: 4 Sword to Plowshares, 2 Lightning Bolts (main)
2 Path To Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Wrath Of God (board)
Pretty much the amount of removal I want to play, but as you see I am not completely sure about the structure.

What are your removal suites?

What are you taking out against Maverick? You add 6 cards, what do you remove? I always remove FOW against MAV, just because I don't think we can afford the 2:1.

I run UW and my removal suite is 4 STP, 1 ORing, 1 Jitte (pseudo-removal) main and 3 PTE, 2 WOG, 1 EE side. I also run 2 KGrips (side) and a Trop Island (main), mainly for Batterskulls, but I will bring it in against Maverick for Choke, Sylvan Library and Equipment.

Against Maverick, I'm -4 FOW, -2 Geist (I run 2 main), -1 Jace, -1 SFM, + 8 above listed cards. I don't always bring in the Grips, as mana can be an issue (I only have one Trop Island and if it gets wasted, Grips are worthless, although I'm never going to fetch it until I need to use a Grip - this can become an issue if they have Aven Mindcensor in play). If I don't bring in Grips, I leave a Jace and SFM in the deck.

[Shaka1333]

I'm not sure you should side out Geist against Maverick as they don't have that many 2/2+ creatures and you have a ton of removals after sideboard.
And if they play Punishing Fire and you unfortunately don't draw your Wastelands, Geist is your only threat that can stay alive.

[MadMaximus]

What are you taking out against Maverick? You add 6 cards, what do you remove? I always remove FOW against MAV, just because I don't think we can afford the 2:1.

I run UW and my removal suite is 4 STP, 1 ORing, 1 Jitte (pseudo-removal) main and 3 PTE, 2 WOG, 1 EE side. I also run 2 KGrips (side) and a Trop Island (main), mainly for Batterskulls, but I will bring it in against Maverick for Choke, Sylvan Library and Equipment.

Against Maverick, I'm -4 FOW, -2 Geist (I run 2 main), -1 Jace, -1 SFM, + 8 above listed cards. I don't always bring in the Grips, as mana can be an issue (I only have one Trop Island and if it gets wasted, Grips are worthless, although I'm never going to fetch it until I need to use a Grip - this can become an issue if they have Aven Mindcensor in play). If I don't bring in Grips, I leave a Jace and SFM in the deck.

My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

[Water_Wizard]

My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

Makes perfect sense. Removing all your artifacts to blank artifact hate is a good idea. However, against Mav, this might not be the highest value play, as their artifact hate is usually Qasali Pridemage and he's pretty useful in other situations. However, against decks like Zoo or RUG, this can be very powerful, as it will usually leave them with 2-3 dead cards, like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip.

Removing all my artifacts doesn't work for me, as I have Mishra's Factories, so they always have artifact targets, so I usually just leave in my SFM package.

[MadMaximus]

Makes perfect sense. Removing all your artifacts to blank artifact hate is a good idea. However, against Mav, this might not be the highest value play, as their artifact hate is usually Qasali Pridemage and he's pretty useful in other situations. However, against decks like Zoo or RUG, this can be very powerful, as it will usually leave them with 2-3 dead cards, like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip.

Removing all my artifacts doesn't work for me, as I have Mishra's Factories, so they always have artifact targets, so I usually just leave in my SFM package.

That was something I didn't have so much on my mind 'til now xD
Anyway, I'll try a different way in the future I think, although the strategy to remove nearly all of my creatures to get the highest value out of wrath of god seems huge against decks like maverick (where you need wrath and elspeth for sure against thrun) or elves.
Problem with wrath of god is, in which matchups will you surely bring it in, I mean, there aren't many decks that overextend and run into it.
Most of the time it's only like dealing with 2 creatures and therefore the spot removal is more important.

So, question to all of you: In which matchups do you side in the wrath of gods?

[anwei]

My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

Removing sfm against punishing lists (or anything with that much removal available) seems like a good idea, as keeping Stoneforge alive is tough. However, as you say, the equipment *really* helps in actually winning this game if it sticks (even cast, if you have the removal available to stick around that long). Non-punishing lists are shorter on removal, and it probably depends on what they're boarding in (one could always put them back for game 3).
Post-board matchups of both variants remain on my "things to test" list.

[Skeggi]

Hello all, my teammate Merrin went 5-0 on a (very) small local tournament with UWr Punishing Blade. Basically a UW Stoneblade list that splashes red for Punishing Fire.

Check out his tournament report: clicky (http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=491).

[Artlee]

Good summary. But there is one thing bugging me:


By this time Gijs has acquired three Bridge from Below in his graveyard. I think for a while in his draw step and decided to wait for a bit more to see what happens. He replays his Cabal Therapy and some Bridge-triggers went on the stack. I decided that those zombies weren’t allowed to enter the battlefield and used a Punishing Fire to kill my own Vendilion Clique.
This is not possible, unless I have been playing wrong for quite a while. Can someone back me up, or tell me I am wrong?

[matunos]

Good summary. But there is one thing bugging me:


This is not possible, unless I have been playing wrong for quite a while. Can someone back me up, or tell me I am wrong?

"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

[Kanadell~]

To start with, read these articles:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23373_I_Love_Stoneblade_And_You_Should_Too.html
And you can watch these videos, too: http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=335 http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=62

General strategy depends on what you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo, you want a heavy counter hand to counter their combo pieces. Mid-range, a mix of removal and counterspell. Against another control deck, you want to drop a Jace or Geist to gain card/board advantage.

Regarding brainstorm, ideally, you want to be able to use a fetchland to shuffle cards away. For example, brainstorm, put two worthless cards back on top, crack fetch, shuffle and draw a new card during your next draw step. Brainstorm also depends on what you are looking for. Early game, it may be a land, mid game, a Swords to Plowshares, late game a Jace, WOG or Batterskull to finish out the game.


Thanks for the response! The SCG posts helped me so much and I'm actually enjoying this deck even more.
One more thing: it's always wrong to tap out playing stoneforge if I have a FoW backup? Or should I wait until I have 3/4/5 lands in play so I can rely on more counters?
I actually play spellstutter sprite but they don't get the job done. It's a bad idea to take them out to put in 2 mana leak?

[matunos]

5-0 with UWr Punishing Blade

Hello all, my teammate Merrin went 5-0 on a (very) small local tournament with UWr Punishing Blade. Basically a UW Stoneblade list that splashes red for Punishing Fire.

Check out his tournament report: clicky (http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=491).



My thoughts:

- His report seems to indicate he's playing against relatively inexperienced players. For example the Counterburn player misplays his Surgical Extraction (and apparently, that's the only Extraction he faces all day? This is why I've chosen not to go the Leyline route for the Dredge matchups). He comments "I’m quite convinced that a lot of other players would do the same." Now, I'll admit I've made the same mistake with Purify the Grave the first time I played someone with a Punishing Grove combo, but that was the last time I'll make that mistake, and with Punishing Maverick making the charts, I wouldn't count on a lot of other people making the same mistake. A properly-timed Extraction will remove half of the removal from his deck and render six of his lands superfluous (the Groves become less than useful at that point: they're basically providing colorless mana and giving the opponent life for the privilege). Also, his Bant opponent apparently didn't make good use of the KotR/Ith combo (attack with the Knight, use the Maze to untap after combat damage, and then pump), indicating he also was probably not too experienced.

- His mana base looks extremely vulnerable. He's only running 1(!) basic. Against a Wasteland-heave aggro deck his mana base is going to get torn up early, and he won't recover. Aggro decks can usually get away with few/no basics because they apply quick pressure and don't need as much mana. Even this "Punishing Blade" deck needs at least 4.

- Given that he only has 4 red spells main, and all 4 are Punishing Fire, for which he really wants a Grove available, I think his number of red duals/fetches is overkill. I would probably ditch the Plateau, and maybe even one of the Volcanics). I'd probably also trade a couple of the fetches (the Arid Mesas) for more Islands and at least one Plains (especially when running 2 Elspeth's main, which also seems like overkill).

- No Wastelands means no way of dealing with problematic lands from the opponent, such as Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, opponents' Groves, etc.

- He mentions how the mirror/control matchups tend to hold onto their Wastelands to use on the Grove. That's not surprising; I think that's the right move on their part. A typical Stoneblade deck isn't looking to play mana denial anyway, and he doesn't have anything else worth wasting. They would probably hold onto those Wastelands for a while regardless of if he was playing Punishing/Grove. They can still be tapped for mana in the meantime, though, so I'm not sure how that helps in his development, other than not getting his duals wasted, which is probably a bad move in general for a Stoneblade deck to try to do.

- I find his logic of swapping out Path to Exile for Phyrexian Metamorph to be a little weak given that he's got 3 WoG in the SB which hit Thrun and Geist just fine (not to mention 4 Snapcasters that also can hit Geist on attack), and at best the Metamorph is only one mana less than WoG. If he's really only concerned about problematic legends, Phantasmal Image sounds better at 2cc... at least I could see a justification of that even with the WoG. Neither is likely necessary.

- Overall, without Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Groves (plus a Knight could fetch a 2nd Grove in response to an attempted Extraction), I feel like Punishing/Grove is just a trick here. It's relatively easy to disrupt with a well-timed Extraction/Purify/Wasteland, rendering his Punishing Fires either non-existent or an expensive and slow Shock. Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

[Water_Wizard]

"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

Artlee, you are correct. The Bridge triggers go on the stack and even if the Bridges are removed afterwords, your opponent still gets his/her Zombie tokens. The only way for matunos to remove the Bridges without the creation of Zombie tokens is to Punishing Fire his Clique at the end of his opponents draw step.

For example, your opponent chooses to Dredge during his/her draw step. You see some Bridges and a Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or other sacrifice outlet hit their yard. You Punishing Fire your creature during your opponent's draw step (after priority is passed to you) and the Bridges remove. If you allow your opponent to go this his/her Main 1 and he/she flashbacks Cabal Therapy or Dread Return, the Zombie tokens will be made even if you kill your creature in response or remove the Bridges using a card like Purify the Grave or Surgical Extraction.

For cards like Narcomeba, Ichorid or a Dread Return target, you can Purify/Surgical the creature in response to the trigger because this creature does have to be in the graveyard at the time of resolution to come into play.

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for the response! The SCG posts helped me so much and I'm actually enjoying this deck even more.
One more thing: it's always wrong to tap out playing stoneforge if I have a FoW backup? Or should I wait until I have 3/4/5 lands in play so I can rely on more counters?
I actually play spellstutter sprite but they don't get the job done. It's a bad idea to take them out to put in 2 mana leak?

Regarding tapping out to play Stoneforge, it totally depends on the match up and board state. Sometimes, I will tap out to play SFM knowing he will die just to get an equipment in hand. Against some decks, it his very hard to keep him alive. For example, against a deck like Zoo, which has 12 'Lightning Bolt' effects, it's hard to keep SFM alive, but you may get lucky, so sometimes it's worth the shot. Also, if I have a 2nd SFM in hand, oftentimes I will run the first out as a sacrificial offering in hopes that the 2nd will survive. Additionally, sometimes I use SFM to fetch Batterskull with the plan of hitting 5 mana and hard casting Batterskull. Against decks like Dredge, which really have no way of killing SFM, it may be a good idea to run him out early (although be aware of Cabal Therapy naming the Equipment your opponent knows you just put into your hand). Sometimes I'll cast turn 2 SFM for a Sword or Jitte, hardcast the Sword/Jitte turn 3 and then try to flash in a Snapcaster EOT to catch an opponent off guard and attack on turn 5. The biggest reason I don't cast SFM is so I can have mana open to counter my opponent's spells. For example, against any combo deck, you want to be very careful when you tap out, because you need mana up to stop them from going off. It's always a fine line between starting a clock (applying pressure) and keeping mana open for counterspells. All I have to say in summary to this long and rambling answer is that there is no right or wrong answer. Giving a particular situation, there is a 'best' answer (the answer most likely to produce a favorable outcome to the game), but this comes with experience and some guesswork based upon your opponent's likely holdings and strategy of attack. For example, I've had Burn opponents not Lightning Bolt SFM because they would rather point that Lightning Bolt at me in hopes of a quick win. A final note, most removal in Legacy is 1cc. Keeping mana open for a Spell Snare doesn't offer much protection for SFM, unless you are trying to stop a SCM from giving a 1cc removal spell flashback.

Regarding Spellstutter Sprite, I've removed them in my deck, replacing them with either Mana Leak or Counterspell. Spellstutter shines against Hive Mind, which isn't too popular right now (the Spellstutter Sprites allow you to counter your copies of the Hive Mind Pacts while not allowing your opponent to copy the effect). Additionally, Spellstutter affects the build of your deck, usually you have to run 2 Vendilion Cliques and 2 Mutavaults to create extra Faeries on board. If you remove the Spellstutters from the deck, you can replace the Mutavaults with Mishra's Factories, which is a more powerful creature since it may be pumped. You can also replace Cliques with Geist of St. Traft, which is very powerful right now (or run both Geist and Clique, if you like to do that - Clique tends to be better against Combo, Geist against control/tempo.).

[Tinefol]

Artlee, you are correct. The Bridge triggers go on the stack and even if the Bridges are removed afterwords, your opponent still gets his/her Zombie tokens. The only way for matunos to remove the Bridges without the creation of Zombie tokens is to Punishing Fire his Clique at the end of his opponents draw step.

For example, your opponent chooses to Dredge during his/her draw step. You see some Bridges and a Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or other sacrifice outlet hit their yard. You Punishing Fire your creature during your opponent's draw step (after priority is passed to you) and the Bridges remove. If you allow your opponent to go this his/her Main 1 and he/she flashbacks Cabal Therapy or Dread Return, the Zombie tokens will be made even if you kill your creature in response or remove the Bridges using a card like Purify the Grave or Surgical Extraction.

Please, read the card.

[lordofthepit]

"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

This is correct.

[Water_Wizard]

Please, read the card.

I just created a new thread in Card Interactions and Rulings regarding this question, so we'll see the response.

However, in reading the card, Bridge from Below would be in the graveyard when the creature entered it. The creature enters as part of the sacrifice ability (i.e. Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, etc.), which occurs when the trigger goes on the stack, not when it resolves.

Using this ruling, the only time a player could Punishing Fire his/her own creature would be in response to an Ichorid EOT trigger or some other phase (Draw phase as mentioned above, declare blockers, etc.)

EDIT:
Bridge from Below has an intervening-if clause (", if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard,"). This means the condition is checked again on resolution in addition to when it triggers. If the Bridge(s) leave the graveyard at any time before the trigger resolves, you get no zombies.

I stand corrected. However, I really want to playtest this on MTGO. I swear I've been burned by this before (killing my own creature with zombie token triggers still on the stack and my opponent still getting zombie tokens). If anybody is up for that, PM me on here or online (same name online). I won't be on for about the next 6 hours, however.

[anwei]

You have to burn your guy with the zombie trigger on the stack still, obv...

[Water_Wizard]

Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

I completely agree with what you said above. I think the major reason to run red in UW is for 'Blasts coming in out of the board. Secondarily, a few (2) Lightning Bolts main deck may be worthwhile if you expect many small creature decks. Like you said above, I think it is best to cut the Punishing Grove, stabilize the mana base and add some Mishra's and Lightning Bolts / Geist of St. Traft.

I think you could play Punishing Grove in a UWRG list (like the old Trinket Mage/Counterbalance lists which were popular about a year ago), but I would at least like to see some other use for the green like Tarmogoyf or KGrip/Trygon Predator from the side.

[MadMaximus]

So, I want to hear everyone's opinion on the punishing fire engine.
In theory it seems like a good idea against maverick, the deck I'm caring about most atm.

The problem is, as matunos, I think, earlier said, that the manabase gets very vulnerable to wasteland.
But you could leave out the mishra's factories (they are anyhow not so overwhelming in a metagame full of spot removal, losing your land to spot removal sometimes really hurts and can decide the game) and incorporate 3 groves and 3 punishing fire (4 were overkill, given you having 4 stp and additional pathes to bring in after boarding).
Second thing you would need to trim is the counterspells, I would run 3 in a version without punishing engine, but 2 just seems fine then (for the mid-lategame).
Riptide lab can also be left out, because I suppose cutting 1 snapcaster seems good in a version with punishing fire, because you don't want to flashback punishing fire, ain't you?

So, let me hear what you think ;)

[Skeggi]

- His report seems to indicate he's playing against relatively inexperienced players.That's true, with the exception of Gijs, all others are relatively inexperienced or bad players. In spite of that, I think the report showcases the capabilities and potential of the deck.



For example the Counterburn player misplays his Surgical Extraction (and apparently, that's the only Extraction he faces all day? This is why I've chosen not to go the Leyline route for the Dredge matchups). He comments "I’m quite convinced that a lot of other players would do the same." Now, I'll admit I've made the same mistake with Purify the Grave the first time I played someone with a Punishing Grove combo, but that was the last time I'll make that mistake, and with Punishing Maverick making the charts, I wouldn't count on a lot of other people making the same mistake. A properly-timed Extraction will remove half of the removal from his deck and render six of his lands superfluous (the Groves become less than useful at that point: they're basically providing colorless mana and giving the opponent life for the privilege).

I agree with you and disagree with my teammate. But the point is moot: yes there is a chance that you meet players who makes these kinds of mistakes in the first three rounds of a tournament, but after that, if you do well, chances diminish.


Also, his Bant opponent apparently didn't make good use of the KotR/Ith combo (attack with the Knight, use the Maze to untap after combat damage, and then pump), indicating he also was probably not too experienced.
I know Ayolt, he's an experienced player and a very nice guy. He's just also a bad player.


- His mana base looks extremely vulnerable. He's only running 1(!) basic. Against a Wasteland-heave aggro deck his mana base is going to get torn up early, and he won't recover. Aggro decks can usually get away with few/no basics because they apply quick pressure and don't need as much mana. Even this "Punishing Blade" deck needs at least 4.
- Given that he only has 4 red spells main, and all 4 are Punishing Fire, for which he really wants a Grove available, I think his number of red duals/fetches is overkill. I would probably ditch the Plateau, and maybe even one of the Volcanics). I'd probably also trade a couple of the fetches (the Arid Mesas) for more Islands and at least one Plains (especially when running 2 Elspeth's main, which also seems like overkill).

We went down to 1 Plateau in exchange for a Volcanic Island. We tested a bit yesterday against a Stifle/Wasteland Tempo deck, even with 3 Wastelands and a couple of Stifles the deck held up because it has quite a few mana sources (23 lands) and 6 cantrips. Wasteland can screw you, but as long as you get up to 3 mana again, you'll be fine in most cases. And this deck can do that. But do not underestimate the abundance of red sources. Punishing Fire requires alot of red mana. The more you have, the more often you can use it in one turn. It really becomes a tertiary win condition then (after creatures and Jace).


- No Wastelands means no way of dealing with problematic lands from the opponent, such as Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, opponents' Groves, etc.
You don't have to. You can win through Jace or Punishing Fire.



- He mentions how the mirror/control matchups tend to hold onto their Wastelands to use on the Grove. That's not surprising; I think that's the right move on their part. A typical Stoneblade deck isn't looking to play mana denial anyway, and he doesn't have anything else worth wasting. They would probably hold onto those Wastelands for a while regardless of if he was playing Punishing/Grove. They can still be tapped for mana in the meantime, though, so I'm not sure how that helps in his development, other than not getting his duals wasted, which is probably a bad move in general for a Stoneblade deck to try to do.
This is where the 4 Swords to Plowshares help out. And the abundance of other red sources. The deck isn't crippled if the Groves are being targetted, it just means you can win through another plan.



- I find his logic of swapping out Path to Exile for Phyrexian Metamorph to be a little weak given that he's got 3 WoG in the SB which hit Thrun and Geist just fine (not to mention 4 Snapcasters that also can hit Geist on attack), and at best the Metamorph is only one mana less than WoG. If he's really only concerned about problematic legends, Phantasmal Image sounds better at 2cc... at least I could see a justification of that even with the WoG. Neither is likely necessary.
I agree.



- Overall, without Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Groves (plus a Knight could fetch a 2nd Grove in response to an attempted Extraction), I feel like Punishing/Grove is just a trick here. It's relatively easy to disrupt with a well-timed Extraction/Purify/Wasteland, rendering his Punishing Fires either non-existent or an expensive and slow Shock. Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

Punishing Fire/Grove = control over creatures. It's very stong in this nearly Goyfless meta. If creatures become too strong you either counter them or Plow them. Your Snapcaster can now be used to snap back Plows, Brainstorms or Spell Snares. He doesn't have to worry about Bolts, Punishing Fire recurs itself. But ofcourse, as I said, it's good in a creature heavy meta where not every creature is a Tarmogoyf like it was two years ago.

[Djz05]

Had a bad time at scgdc he past weekend. After getting some suggestions here and Playtesting with my friends I was pretty confident with my deck. Ended up going 0-3 drop. I swear the deck shouldnt have too much variance, but it just bricked on me.

Round 1:
Game 1: against rdw
Game 1 he had 3 goblin guides in his first hand, and i only got one stp and one counter to try and hold him back.

Game 2:
This I completely blame on not getting my morning coffee before playing.
Stp his turn one guide, and surgical end of turn. Yes, i used a surgical extraction and he showed me his hand and library. It was only after i took the goblins out that i realized my mistake and called a judge expecting a gameloss. We both got a warning instead because my opponent didnt keep the game state intact, and he still lost the guides. I didnt think that was fair, and offered to concede. He said its fine since he only wanted to play, so kept playing and he still won the game in the end. Had a good laugh about it during the match anyway.


Round 2: painter combo
Never played against this deck before so i wasnt sure about my plays
Game 1: turn 1 ancient tomb made me peg him as some metalworker deck, the turn 2 blood moon (FOWed thankfully) had me think otherwise. Stp on painter, and landing clique with jitte had him concede afterwards.

Disenchants into the mb and paths
Game 2: i used spellpierce, paths, mana leak, and snapcaster on snare to keep him from getting blood moon and combo pieces on board until he landed a koth. I had a sofaf on board ready to beat face but he gets koth emblem before i drew another creature or factory to use the sword 6 draws later.

Game 3: first 7 was 5 lands and creatures, next 6 no counters, my starting 5 had brainstorm, fetch and snare. Thought i had 2-3 turns to get more counter or removal in hand. Turn 2 bloodmoon was countered, but turn 3 he plays sevant and grindstone, and brainstorm showed me 3 lands fetched, and only got a mana leak next draw.

Round 3: No Bant
Game 1: he plays land and gsz for arbor dryad. Turn 2 he plays ancient tomb, which surprised me and casts natural order which i counter. Turn 3 he casts show and tell. I had sfm and snapcaster on hand so i figure i could race with sofaf. He plays emrakul instead...

Game 2:
He didnt get the initial NO and instead had show and tell put progenitus into play. I had the batter skull in hand. Landed sfm next turn to fetch sofaf and equipped afterwards. He conceded after his 2nd NO was countered since he needed a blocker to prevent lethal.

Game 3:
Mulled to 5 fromm a no land 6 and 7 hand, and got 2 counters and 3 lands. I could only counter enough spells when he had 2 natural orders and 2 show and tells wih an emrakul in his first hand. Turn 1 gsz for arbor. Turn 2 ancient tomb to natural order countered. Turn 3 Show and tell resolved and him landing emrakul and me just playing land. And he still hand another 2 natural orders in hand.

I was really upset because of how i ended up losing to 2 combos, which the deck should have been able to answer. After constant playtesting i Was more afraid of maverick than combo, since 11-13 counters plus snapcaster was a lot, but just losing to bad starting hands was underwhelming.

On a different note, i didnt notice this until i had the cards in hand. Wasteland on my factory, in response tap to make it a creature then cast path to exile on it. Lol

[anwei]

The SCG@DC Top 16 (here) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&feedin=44&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Washington) is interesting. Lots of combo (2 Reanimator, 3 Storm, 1 SnT, 1 Elves), 3 RUG Tempo, 0 Stoneblade, 0 Maverick.

Makes me wonder about a transofmative CB sideboard plan (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control&p=611188&viewfull=1#post611188) again (which 2 rug decks actually did).

[Water_Wizard]

The SCG@DC Top 16 (here) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&feedin=44&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Washington) is interesting. Lots of combo (2 Reanimator, 3 Storm, 1 SnT, 1 Elves), 3 RUG Tempo, 0 Stoneblade, 0 Maverick.

Makes me wonder about a transofmative CB sideboard plan (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control&p=611188&viewfull=1#post611188) again (which 2 rug decks actually did).

Until they release a "Too Much Information" about SCG:DC, it will be hard to tell what decks did well versus which decks were highly/under represented. I agree, SCGDC's Top 16 is much different than SCGLA's Top 16.

Why not run a deck like this: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=78478 to begin with? It's basically Countertop with SFM to find Batterskull/Sword of the Meek. Traditionally, this deck does very well against combo and control, so it may be a good call for the SCGDC meta.

[anwei]

Until they release a "Too Much Information" about SCG:DC, it will be hard to tell what decks did well versus which decks were highly/under represented. I agree, SCGDC's Top 16 is much different than SCGLA's Top 16.

Why not run a deck like this: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=78478 to begin with? It's basically Countertop with SFM to find Batterskull/Sword of the Meek. Traditionally, this deck does very well against combo and control, so it may be a good call for the SCGDC meta.

Counterbalance seems like a pretty bad way to be playing many matchups at the moment, both against aggro (for speed) and midrange (for their curve).

Dedicating 6-8 slots in the sideboard, though, strengthens combo matches with CB, improves long games in control mirrors siding in 2 Tops, and when SFM bad, gives you something better to do than 1-for-1'ing everything you can until you can get a planeswalker through.

[Water_Wizard]

Counterbalance seems like a pretty bad way to be playing many matchups at the moment, both against aggro (for speed) and midrange (for their curve).

Dedicating 6-8 slots in the sideboard, though, strengthens combo matches with CB, improves long games in control mirrors siding in 2 Tops, and when SFM bad, gives you something better to do than 1-for-1'ing everything you can until you can get a planeswalker through.

When is SFM bad? Against combo? Even against combo, I still leave a few in to get Jitte for Swarm/Bob removal or Batterskull to get out of range of storm Tendrils/EtW.

I think you hit it on the head when you said "Dedicating 6-8 slots in the sideboard." If you are dedicating 6-8 slots, why not make it a combination of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm? The really problematic card for us to beat in Storm is Orim's Chant/Silence. Spell Snare can't hit it and you can't 2:1 yourself all day to cast FOW and we only have ~2 main deck counterspells. Bringing in Pierces/Flusterstorms shuts down Chant effects. Even if they can pay the 2 off Pierce, it should take away enough mana that they can't go off. If you are really worried about storm, bring in Ethersworn Canonist, I don't think any storm player will see that coming.

If you did do the 3SDT/3Counterbalance in the sideboard like the deck you linked above, I think you would have to run some Ponders or Enlightened Tutors to make sure you could draw both pieces of the combo. I'm not a mathematician, but if you have 3 of each card, I'm guessing the odds of hitting both in your opener are <20%. As you know, you really have to get SDT/CB down quick to stop storm and it's going to help to have some extra E Tutors or cantrips to make sure you draw both pieces.

I consider the Reanimator match-up in our favor - we have removal and counters and gy hate post-board, and they only have 1 creature which is a real back-breaker (Inkwell). Iona on white is rough, but you can Jace bounce her. Even with Inkwell, you can race her with Batterskull.

[MadMaximus]

A friend of mine told me it isn't worth splashing red without playing punishing fire atm so I can't resist and post al list, that is on my mind right now:

Spells (25):
4 Sword To Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Punishing Fire
2 Counterspell

Artifacts (2):
1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine

Planeswalkers (4):
3 Jace, TMS
1 Elspeth

Creatures (9):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Lands (24):
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Tundra
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mountain

Discussion about Maindeck:

Splashing Red means playing blasts in the sideboard, which is strong against a couple of decks out there, additionally you can play spot removal in the deck, which will be lightning bolts or punishing fire (lightning bolts have a bit underperformed in the past for me) mainly to get rid of the small creatures in the maverick deck and delvers and lavamancers and guides and so on.

The snapcaster gets weaker as a result of including punishing fire in the maindeck, which led me to cutting it to 3.

The Factories also were cutted, because of the manabase getting more and more fragile with including the groves and red into it.

Main points:

1. Is it worth the "weak" manabase to include the punishing engine?

2. Have you got other ideas to improve our matchup against the creatures decks other than upping the path to exile count in the maindeck, which in many cases isn't that wonderful, you know (against maverick killing a hierarch with a path is hilarious)?

3. How strongly does the inclusion of the engine affect other matchups such as spiral tide, reanimator? There is now 1 less Counterspell in my list and 1 less Snapcaster, but the rest should still be a solid maindeck against and after boarding there are spell pierces and blasts to bring in (a split, but I'm not sure on the arrangement yet).

[matunos]

If you are really worried about storm, bring in Ethersworn Canonist, I don't think any storm player will see that coming.

Isn't the Canonist one of the standard defenses against storm combo?

[anwei]

When is SFM bad? Against combo? Even against combo, I still leave a few in to get Jitte for Swarm/Bob removal or Batterskull to get out of range of storm Tendrils/EtW.

I realize that play-style varies a lot on this, particularly against Aggro decks, where some lean harder into "aggro-control" and some fall back into a control role. I side out SFM primarily facing heavy removal - I keep her in against combo for (as you say) the life gain and the faster clock. (Against combo, I would pull removal, then Elspeth, then Jace for CB/Top.)

Punishing Fire decks or Zoo have enough removal that sfm is a fairly bad tutor, and post-board (if not pre-) the equipment is probably no good as well. Packing lots of early removal and a midgame CB/Top addresses the Zoo/Punishing Mav curves very well (and lets you ignore Punishing Fire to win). With plenty of removal, never assembling the combo or losing CB to Pridemage isn't backbreaking, but the soft lock can shut them down or buy time quite well.



If you did do the 3SDT/3Counterbalance in the sideboard like the deck you linked above, I think you would have to run some Ponders or Enlightened Tutors to make sure you could draw both pieces of the combo. I'm not a mathematician, but if you have 3 of each card, I'm guessing the odds of hitting both in your opener are <20%. As you know, you really have to get SDT/CB down quick to stop storm and it's going to help to have some extra E Tutors or cantrips to make sure you draw both pieces.


It's certainly not as consistent as playing a dedicated CB deck, but:
1. Your counters/removal combat combo/creatures just fine early on,
2. Top is often amazing alone, particularly in control matchups and when playing combo, as you can use any unneeded counter mana to sculpt your draws and float a counterspell immune to discard. (Counterbalance can work okay, particularly if they're running LED/Petals, which makes most of your deck relevant as a blindflip if you don't have top or brainstorm.)


Again, I realize that sideboarding strategies vary, and I'm trying it out for (a) matches where spot removal is worthless, as an alternative to Pierce/Pyroblast in the board, and (b) matches where heavy removal leaves stoneforge too vulnerable and I'm going to fall into a heavier control role, to try to dominate the stack enough in the mid-late game that a smaller creature base and/or planeswalkers can finish things off.

[Skeggi]

1. Is it worth the "weak" manabase to include the punishing engine?
Yes, but I'd run the full set of Punishing Fires and Groves. I think your manabase is weak because it cannot support your decks demands. I wouldn't go for the basic Plains or Mountain. If Wasteland is a problem, just don't fetch unless you have to. Wasteland is generally played in a deck with ~20 lands, we run 23-24. We can take a few hits. As long as your meta isn't full of recurring Wasteland or Moon effects, I think it's fine to run some more duals.


2. Have you got other ideas to improve our matchup against the creatures decks other than upping the path to exile count in the maindeck, which in many cases isn't that wonderful, you know (against maverick killing a hierarch with a path is hilarious)?
Vedalken Shackles is an option. 1 or 2. You really need to ditch the non-island basics then. Also, I wouldn't run Shackles in a Punishing build, but then again, if you run Punishing Fires, you wouldn't need extra creature control. Shackles is generally very good against Maverick (but don't let any Pridemages or GSZ for 2 resolve :wink:).


3. How strongly does the inclusion of the engine affect other matchups such as spiral tide, reanimator? There is now 1 less Counterspell in my list and 1 less Snapcaster, but the rest should still be a solid maindeck against and after boarding there are spell pierces and blasts to bring in (a split, but I'm not sure on the arrangement yet).
Obviously negative, but these should be good match-ups anyway. On paper, Punishing Blade has no real bad match-ups. I think RUG Tempo is the most difficult one, and even that is fairly winnable.

Have you seen our team's Punishing Blade list? I'll admit, we have a new list but I'm not allowed to share, but I think the list in the report here (http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=491) (2nd list) is more solid than yours because it still runs the full set of Snapcasters, a full set of Punishing Fires and Groves and 0 basic Mountains. I would take that list to start with and tinker with it to fit your meta and your playstyle.

[Water_Wizard]

Isn't the Canonist one of the standard defenses against storm combo?

Although it's not usually run in the UW Blade deck. Deadguy Ale (WB), Death & Taxes and Maverick tend to run Canonist as Combo defense.

[Water_Wizard]

Packing lots of early removal and a midgame CB/Top addresses the Zoo/Punishing Mav curves very well (and lets you ignore Punishing Fire to win). With plenty of removal, never assembling the combo or losing CB to Pridemage isn't backbreaking, but the soft lock can shut them down or buy time quite well.


True, CB/Top is very well curved to combat Zoo. I think they run about 24 1-drops and 14 2-drops, so once you get the soft-lock, you ought to be able to ride it to victory.



Again, I realize that sideboarding strategies vary, and I'm trying it out for (a) matches where spot removal is worthless, as an alternative to Pierce/Pyroblast in the board, and (b) matches where heavy removal leaves stoneforge too vulnerable and I'm going to fall into a heavier control role, to try to dominate the stack enough in the mid-late game that a smaller creature base and/or planeswalkers can finish things off.

Keep me posted how this works out for you. It's an interesting idea and if it works out well, I am certainly open to it.

[Skeggi]

True, CB/Top is very well curved to combat Zoo. I think they run about 24 1-drops and 14 2-drops, so once you get the soft-lock, you ought to be able to ride it to victory.
Don't mistake 'well curved' for 'good'. Zoo and also Maverick have many ways to deal with CB top. Firstly, it's speed. Because both deck can put pressure on the board before CounterTop is established, CounterTop is too slow and janky. Also, Green Sun's Zenith gives them an out to escape the curve. GSZ with X=2 or 3 depending on how much spare mana he has can easily net a Qasali Pridemage if he needs one. I'm not a fan of Counterbalance versus fast aggro decks if you do not have a way to reset the board, like Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed.

Also, when dealing with green based aggro: do not underestimate the power of Gilded Drake + Submerge. It leads to awesome plays like Submerge in response to fetching or Knight of the Reliquary activation; or just steal the Knight with Drake and then get back the Drake with Submerge and steal another Knight.

I prefer that method if you don't run Punishing Fire and are hesitant to run Vedalken Shackles because they side in artifact/enchantment hate against you anyway.

[Water_Wizard]

Don't mistake 'well curved' for 'good'. Zoo and also Maverick have many ways to deal with CB top. Firstly, it's speed. Because both deck can put pressure on the board before CounterTop is established, CounterTop is too slow and janky. Also, Green Sun's Zenith gives them an out to escape the curve. GSZ with X=2 or 3 depending on how much spare mana he has can easily net a Qasali Pridemage if he needs one. I'm not a fan of Counterbalance versus fast aggro decks if you do not have a way to reset the board, like Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed.

Also, when dealing with green based aggro: do not underestimate the power of Gilded Drake + Submerge. It leads to awesome plays like Submerge in response to fetching or Knight of the Reliquary activation; or just steal the Knight with Drake and then get back the Drake with Submerge and steal another Knight.

I prefer that method if you don't run Punishing Fire and are hesitant to run Vedalken Shackles because they side in artifact/enchantment hate against you anyway.

I prefer the 4 STP / 4 PTE / 4 Snapcaster method against Zoo while leaving in the equipment package. Sideboard is -4 FOW + 4 PTE and you can usually get there. Creature-wise, they can't compete with Batterskull and you have more card-drawing ability. Once you stop their initial onslaught, they go into top-deck mode and you can rebuild more quickly.

[Skeggi]

Creature-wise, they can't compete with Batterskull

Qasali Pridemage usually does the trick. Knight of the Reliquary is often big enough. They also pack alot of removal for SFM so actually landing that Batterskull is quite hard. Aven Mindcensor in response to various things can also be a real pain in the behind.

Point of the matter is, that they do have answers against Batterskull. Force of Will is always a 2-for-1. I'm not saying this match-up is unwinnable, but it's certainly not as easy as the picture you are painting. I do agree that simply going -4 FoW +4 Path is a very strong approach.

What do you do against Thrun, the Last Troll?

[Water_Wizard]

Qasali Pridemage usually does the trick. Knight of the Reliquary is often big enough. They also pack alot of removal for SFM so actually landing that Batterskull is quite hard. Aven Mindcensor in response to various things can also be a real pain in the behind.

Point of the matter is, that they do have answers against Batterskull. Force of Will is always a 2-for-1. I'm not saying this match-up is unwinnable, but it's certainly not as easy as the picture you are painting. I do agree that simply going -4 FoW +4 Path is a very strong approach.

What do you do against Thrun, the Last Troll?

I think we have different definitions of Zoo. When I say Zoo, I mean a deck like this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42660

When you start throwing in GSZ, KotR and Thrun, it becomes Big Zoo.

Throw in some Punishing Fires and a few Grove of the Burnwillows and you have Punishing Zoo.

You go much further (like add some MoRs and SFMs, for example) and you have Punishing Mav.

The comment I made above (+4 PTE, -4 FOW) is only against the Zoo deck I referenced above. If they play Punishing Fire, I wil board in 2 Surgical Extractions, also trying to remove GSZ or KotR if I can get one in the yard. Against Thrun or Big Zoo, I bring in two WoG, usually removing 2 Spell Snares and 2 V. Cliques (although V. Clique can be good if they run Equipment- Clique in response to SFM activation). I also have 2 Disenchants for Choke/Equipment/Sylvan Library. If I bring those in, I take out the final 2 Spell Snares.

Regarding my Batterskull Protection Plan (BPP), I usually try to play him only when I have mana open to bounce (5 mana in play with SFM, cheat in at EOT and if they have removal, bounce in response). In terms of artifact removal, I fear KGrip the most, followed by Ancient Grudge (since you have to beat it twice) and finally Qasali Pridemage. Currently, I assume Ancient Grudge will be the artifact hate of choice of Zoo and RUG Tempo.

Regarding Aven Mindcensor, yes it's rough. The best advice I can give is to SFM/Fetch with STP mana open. For example, cast your SFM when you have 3 mana (2 W) and an STP in hand, so it plays out like: you cast SFM, they flash Mindcensor in response, you plow Mindcensor and get your search.

[lordofthepit]

Isn't the Canonist one of the standard defenses against storm combo?

If I were piloting Storm, I would not expect Canonist in a deck that has Snapcaster Mage.

[anwei]

Don't mistake 'well curved' for 'good'. Zoo and also Maverick have many ways to deal with CB top. Firstly, it's speed. Because both deck can put pressure on the board before CounterTop is established, CounterTop is too slow and janky. Also, Green Sun's Zenith gives them an out to escape the curve. GSZ with X=2 or 3 depending on how much spare mana he has can easily net a Qasali Pridemage if he needs one. I'm not a fan of Counterbalance versus fast aggro decks if you do not have a way to reset the board, like Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed.


Again, CB/Top are primarily there for combo matchups, instead of more counters, where they come in for removal. In removal-heavy matches, stoneforge and equipment are the first cards I take out, for removal (the list I linked runs 4 swords, 2 path main and 2 path, 2 wrath, 2 shackles in the side). After that, it seems that CB/Top might do better than FoW/Counters/Clique in maintaining mid/late game control and ensuring that your SCMs/Cliques/Factories/Walkers (all vulnerable to removal/burn) can make it (it helps a lot to blank nearly all opposing removal/burn inc. Punishing Fire).
CB/Top is not Plan A - Plan A just got sided out - it deals with there stuff after your removal is used up and pushes through your Plan B.




Regarding my Batterskull Protection Plan (BPP), I usually try to play him only when I have mana open to bounce (5 mana in play with SFM, cheat in at EOT and if they have removal, bounce in response). In terms of artifact removal, I fear KGrip the most, followed by Ancient Grudge (since you have to beat it twice) and finally Qasali Pridemage. Currently, I assume Ancient Grudge will be the artifact hate of choice of Zoo and RUG Tempo.

This is a description of when "Plan A" is no good. If you have enough control of the game to protect Stoneforge long enough to vial in a protected Batterskull and dedicate 3 lands to its protection for the rest of the game, then yes, it does fine.

[yutang]

I want to raise a topic for discussion - how many colourless lands can we run before it becomes too unstable? The usual split for a UW build is 3 Mishra/2 Wasteland/1 Riptide, but can we push this up since we run 24 lands?

[lordofthepit]

I want to raise a topic for discussion - how many colourless lands can we run before it becomes too unstable? The usual split for a UW build is 3 Mishra/2 Wasteland/1 Riptide, but can we push this up since we run 24 lands?

When I used to run this (pre-Snapcaster Mage), I ran 24 lands with 4 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wastelands, straight U/W (i.e. no red splash). It was essentially Owen Turwentald's deck, which I used in my playtest gauntlet. I was annoyed by how often I was unable to get colored sources, so I'd suggest 16 colored sources at a minimum, more if you're splashing.

[yutang]

I was running 23 lands with a 4/4 split of Wasteland/Mishra's Factory back in the MM period based on Ochoa's deck too. Back then, I didn't really have any problems with the manabase because the only UU card in my deck was Jace (I ran 4 Visions, 3 Daze, 3 Snare, 4 MM and MM helped in slowing down decks).

However, now we run Counterspell as a UU, Elspeth in the main with WW and I'm running 2 Geists in the maindeck which may necessitate a higher coloured source count. At the moment, 3/2/1 of Mishra/Wasteland/Riptide seems okay, but I was wondering how far we could push it...

[Skeggi]

Snapcaster also costs 1UW or 1UU.

[Water_Wizard]

I'm running UW (no splash) with 4 Islands, 2 Plains, 3 Tundra, 4 Factories, 3 Wasteland, and 8 Fetch (4 Flooded Strand, 1 Misty, 1 Scalding Tarn, 1 Polluted Delta, 1 Arid Mesa). I just made this change yesterday (dropping 1 Tundra for a Plains and removing a Tower of Magistrate for the 3rd Wasteland).

I added the 2nd Plains because I have Elspeth and 2 WOG side. For the 7th colorless slot, I was considering Karakas, Riptide or Tower and just ended up going with the 3 Wasteland because of Grove of the Burnwillows.

I've been getting some horrible draws with this deck on MTGO. I swear it is cursed. I think I'm being punished because this deck is so good. Perhaps it's the mana-base (I seem to draw either all colorless sources or no/1 mana hands, which doesn't make sense because I'm running 24), but it's too early to tell. I've considered dropping a fetch to add a Tundra or another colorless source (perhaps a 4th Wasteland, but I know mana denial isn't a strong objective with this deck).

What's everyone think of the land:fetch ratio? 9:8, 9:7 or 10:7? I hate drawing dead fetches in the late game, which 9:8 promotes, but they are certainly nice early on for Brainstorms and thinning out the deck. Even late game, they can be nice with a Jace.

Is everyone running Crucible of Worlds? Main deck or sideboard? I cut mine completely, just because it seems like a wasted slot and if I have 6 basics, I hardly need to recur anything (like I said, I'm not going for the Crucible->Wasteland plan, but it is a ton of fun when it happens!).

[yutang]

This is my list at the moment:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds

I haven't tested my list much but on paper, it seems fine. There doesn't appear to be anything it cannot handle. It seems like this deck's worst matchups are Maverick and Dredge and the sideboard addresses it. I used to splash red for REB/Blood Moon but I feel like keeping it in UW for the Wastelands and Mishras and the more streamlined board.

[Water_Wizard]

We're running nearly identical lists! I used to run G for KGrip and I've tried R for 'Blasts/Bolts/Mancers, but I cut back to just plain old UW for now (I still run UWr if I'm expecting lots of mirror).

I run a Jitte main instead of a Sword. I considered SoFaF, but I don't like 3 equipment, it's too much.

I went 4 Surgicals, 4 Spell Pierce in the board. I was running 3 Surgicals for a long time, but I face a lot of Dredge, so the 4th really helps. I usually figure I need to hit 2 against Dredge (either hardcast or Snap-backed) within the first 3/4 turns. Flusterstorm is much more powerful against Storm/High Tide, but I like Spell Pierce because it can hit Artifacts/Enchantments. If the meta ever shifts to heavy storm, I will definitely go back to Flusterstorm.

[matunos]

If I were piloting Storm, I would not expect Canonist in a deck that has Snapcaster Mage.

Fair enough, I thought the OP was saying they're not expecting Canonist in general. From what I've gathered, Canonist isn't typically considered necessary in a control deck that has enough counters and SB alternatives that don't also restrict us unnecessarily like Canonist would... though between the SFM, manlands, flashable bodies, and equipment, I imagine Stoneblade isn't suffering too much with her. And I'm thinking you'd board out Snapcasters for the Canonists, right?

Out of curiosity, since I don't have much experience playing against storm combo decks, what would a storm pilot do differently if they were expecting a Canonist versus not expecting one? Different SB? Different play?

[Water_Wizard]

Fair enough, I thought the OP was saying they're not expecting Canonist in general. From what I've gathered, Canonist isn't typically considered necessary in a control deck that has enough counters and SB alternatives that don't also restrict us unnecessarily like Canonist would... though between the SFM, manlands, flashable bodies, and equipment, I imagine Stoneblade isn't suffering too much with her. And I'm thinking you'd board out Snapcasters for the Canonists, right?

Out of curiosity, since I don't have much experience playing against storm combo decks, what would a storm pilot do differently if they were expecting a Canonist versus not expecting one? Different SB? Different play?

Yes, Snapcasters would come out for Canonist because with Canonist in play, Snapcaster is just a 2/1 blue creature with flash, since you can't cast the spell you target with his flashback ability.

There are two major types of storm right now. ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) and EPIC Storm. Your basic strategy against both is the same, but the decks attack you in a slightly different manner, so you play against them differently. There are many different storm variations, including DFT (Doomsday, Fetchland, Tendrils), but I am going to focus on ANT and EPIC Storm because they are the most popular right now.

Most storm decks run 13-17 lands, mostly non-basics, so they can be susceptible to mana denial or poor draws.
8-12 cards are cantrips, namely Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain.
4-8 tutors (Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, maybe 2 Grim Tutor).
8 quick mana spells (4 Dark Ritual and 4 Cabal Therapy for ANT, 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Rite of Flame for EPIC).
8-12 mana artifacts (4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, up to 4 Chrome Mox).
The storm engine is usually fueled by Ad Nauseam. Most decks run 1 or 2. Recently, some decks have focused on Past in Flames as a secondary or primary storm engine. Most decks have a main deck Tendrils of Agony, although recently, some decks are relying more heavily on Empty the Warrens against certain match ups. Finally, some decks run Ill-Gotten Gains as an alternate storm engine.
Storm decks usually run 8 slots for protection. Currently, the normal deck does a 5/3 split between chant effects and discard. Chant effects are Orim's Chant and Silence and Duress is the preferred form of discard, since it doesn't cause loss of life like Thoughtseize.

ANT - ANT is usually UBw for a splash of Orim's Chant and Silence. Their basic plan is to craft their hand until they have a good shot at protected storm and then go off. What's protected storm? It's either Duressing you enough to make sure you have no way to fight back or Chanting you so you can't cast spells to fight back. Once the coast is clear, the storm player usually casts Ad Nauseam and draws half his/her deck, drops a bunch of cheap artifact mana and Dark Rituals/Cabal Therapies to reach critical storm (usually 8-9 depending upon how much damage you've done yourself with fetchlands and Force of Will) and then launches a large Tendrils at your head. One of the nastiest tricks in the storm playbook is to crack Lion's Eye Diamond in response to Infernal Tutor. With IT on the stack, storm player cracks LED(s), adding mana to his/her pool while simultaneously gaining Hellbent, allowing storm player to select any card from his/her deck. The common tutor target is Tendrils of Agony for lethal life loss.
So, you may ask, how do I fight this?
There are three important elements to your fight against the storm deck.
First, you must counter selectively.
Second, you must sideboard effectively.
Third, you must start a clock.

Starting with the first... usually, you must counter a chant effect. If the storm player successfully casts a chant effect, he/she will be able to go off without interference for the rest of that turn. Note: It is not uncommon for storm players to chant you on your turn (during your upkeep) in order to cast Ad Nauseam on your endstep to fill their hand with good stuff and then go off on their next turn. For example, a storm player has 7 cards in hand with a white mana source and a black mana source. During the upkeep of my 2nd turn, the storm player chants me, but I think nothing of it, as my only play was to make a land drop. During my endstep, the storm player casts Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam, drawing 23 cards and leaving himself at 2 life. During his turn, he draws for his turn, drops a land and proceeds to drop artifact mana, chants, duresses and a Tendrils of Agony for lethal. Note: When the storm player Ad Nauseams, every card is revealed. If you realize you cannot win the Chant war, you might as well hold back, as your counterspells are only upping his/her storm count. Usually this won't matter, but let's say he/she draws poorly off the Ad Nauseam, the extra counterspell or two you add to the storm count may be your demise.

The sideboard plan against storm is usually to bring in additional counters in the form of Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm. Spell Pierce is more versatile, since it can hit enchantments and artifacts as well, but Flusterstorm was made to halt storm mages. Regarding what to remove, most players remove their creature removal (since the standard storm deck has no creatures) and their slower spells (like Elspeth, Crucible of Worlds, Jace, etc.) Against ANT, you have to be cautious about taking out all your creature removal, as some decks run Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm in the sideboard. Swarm is more popular when Counterbalance decks are popular, so the storm player can also bring in Krosan Grip against the Counterbalance. I usually get around the Confidant/Swarm dilemma through leaving in my Umezawa's Jitte, as the -1/-1 counters kill these creatures, the Jitte's life gain can be relevant to keep you out of reach of storm, and the +2/+2 counters can end the game more quickly. If you know a player is bringing in Confidant's/Swarms, keep some of your Swords to Plowshares in your deck.
Start a clock: What does this mean? Get some beaters on the board to start taking down the storm player's life total. Batterskull is particularly good for this, as while he is beating them down, he is pushing your life total out of storm range. Additionally, Vendilion Clique is very strong due to its flash ability and hand disruption.

The ANT player has 3 forms of disruption - discard, chants and bounce. Usually, they run discard and chants main with additional discard and bounce in the board. Against UW, the storm player is going to remove some cantrips and artifact mana to add additional discard or chants (usually +3 cards), so his/her final disruption package will look like 5-6 Chants / 5-6 Discard. You can use your Brainstorms to hide valuable cards from his discard effects. Against a creature based deck, the storm player is going to add bounce Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away to bounce pesky creatures like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. Bounce may also be used against cards like Leyline of Sanctity. That is why we said no storm player would expect Canonist from a UW deck and it would probably catch him/her off guard.
Some storm decks also bring in Defense Grid. If you know this is coming, bring in your artifact hate or try to counter it as it is being played.

Against EPIC storm, the major difference from ANT is that they have access to Pyroblast. Usually, they will take out -1 Ponder, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor and +3 Pyroblast. So, you have to fight Chants (usually 5), discard (usually 3 Duress) and counterspells (3 Pyroblast). The good news about EPIC Storm is that they don't run creatures or Defense Grip, so you can know what to expect.

I hope this helps. Both match ups are extremely draw dependent. Both ANT and EPIC Storm can and do go off first turn. However, we are the best suited deck in the current meta to fight them, with Force of Will, Counterspell, Spell Snare and Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.

As with any deck, the best way to learn how to beat it is to play it yourself. I used to lose to storm all the time just because I didn't understand how to play against it. I was counterspelling every spell the storm player tried to cast and I didn't understand how storm went off or what cards were essential to cast. After playing storm, I have a better understanding of the deck and now better know how to play against it.

[lordofthepit]

Out of curiosity, since I don't have much experience playing against storm combo decks, what would a storm pilot do differently if they were expecting a Canonist versus not expecting one? Different SB? Different play?

Water_Wizard gave a summary. Here's what I would think if I were playing storm.

Usually, Storm decks play 3 forms of protection:
1) discard - always Duress, but ANT will frequently play Thoughtseize in addition
2) chant effects - Orim's Chant/Silence, occasionally Xantid Swarm, which has fallen out of favor. There are always 3-4 copies in TES, but occasionally in ANT as well.
3) Pyroblast (always Pyro, and not REB, because they need to build storm sometimes). This usually comes from the sideboard in TES; ANT is unlikely to run it.
4) bounce effects - from the sideboard; usually some mix of Wipe Away, Chain of Vapor, and Echoing Truth. Occasionally, creature removal such as Slaughter Pact, Deathmark, etc.

Storm decks also expect several types of hate:
1) countermagic - Chant effects are amazing (blanks Spell Snare and Stifle), whereas discard is merely solid
2) permanent-based hate (like Chalice or Counterbalance) - These are out of favor now, but are a compelling reason to run more discard effects
3) hate bears - Technically fall under category #2, but Thoughtseize > Duress in this case

Against a deck like Maverick which features mostly hate bears, I would board out my Chant effects for bounce spells; in addition, I'd max out my Thoughtseizes (and cut extra Duresses) if I were on ANT. Against a deck with a lot of counters, I would keep my mainboard, possibly adding Pyroblasts if I were on TES, since they deal with Vendilion Clique (the best piece of hate you can have after turn 3).

Since I would not expect Ethersworn Canonist out of a mostly blue deck, I would not have my bounce spells at my disposal if Canonist escaped my discard. If I played a Burning Wish package, I might have some removal there, but it's incredibly difficult to play around Canonist + countermagic. So that would be a potential blowout.

I'd keep in Snapcaster Mages though, despite the dissynergy with Canonist, since it still buys back your Snares and Pierces. Snapcaster isn't the greatest against Storm combo, but there are certainly worse cards to cut (i.e. Stoneforge Mystic, which is only good if they go for Empty the Warrens).

However, since U/W Stoneblade has a decent matchup against storm (not necessarily favorable, but not abysmal just by the virtue of playing Force of Will), most Storm players would not expect additional hate in the form of Ethersworn Canonist (relatively narrow) from the board.

[Skeggi]

Against ANT, you have to be cautious about taking out all your creature removal, as some decks run Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm in the sideboard.
TES is also known to run Swarms in the sideboard since they run rainbow lands, this is no problem for them. ANT usually has a Tropical Island in the sideboard if it runs Swarms. Either often play Cabal Therapy in their discard slot, when they do, they often have Swarms in the sideboard for the flashback. But it doesn't have to be the case, because Therapy is alot better since Gitaxian Probe.

[klaus]

I'd keep in Snapcaster Mages though, despite the dissynergy with Canonist, since it still buys back your Snares and Pierces. Snapcaster isn't the greatest against Storm combo, but there are certainly worse cards to cut
This.

[MadMaximus]

To bring the discussion back to life, I will post a list now, which I try to sculpt for a meta mainly consisting of: maverick (especially with punishing fire), delver (including RUG, UW and UR), burn (all sorts) and spiral tide

Removal (7):
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalker (4):
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Countersuite (10):
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

Stoneforge package (5):
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine

Card quality / advantage (9):
4 Brainstorm
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Random (1):
1 Crucible Of Worlds

Lands (24):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15):
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wrath Of God
2 Path To Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives

Thoughts on numbers:

- only 3 punishing fire, because 7 removal plus snapcaster is already very much for any deck, that is not maverick and I don't want to draw punishing fire in multiples in the early game
- only 3 spell snares, but 3 counterspells, because counterspell is infinitely better in the mid-game and I tried to tune my manabase to having UU 2nd or 3rd turn
- only 3 mystics, because I nearly never tap out on my second turn to play him, and in most games want to draw into it (plus it's a very bad topdeck in the lategame)
- only 3 snapcaster because of punishing fire (I used to play pathes in UW, but now there are less targets for him)
- the crucible to fight opposing groves with wastelock ;) and it's super against canadian, and to protect my own groves

Sorry, have to stop here, because I am busy.
Let me know what you think ;)

[Kanadell~]

Guys, what are you thoughts on Geist of Saint Traft? Is it a good replacement for Vendilion Clique or should they both stay in the main deck?
And also, with this deck, when is the optimal moment to cast clique? 3r turn after the opponent drew a card? Or at EOT if I have a counterspell in hand so I can cast it?

[death]

Depends on your matchup, against combo it's better to keep the Cliques in because they obviously aren't packing any creature removal. Geist is better against decks other than combo.


When is the optimal moment to cast clique? 3rd turn after the opponent drew a card? Or at EOT if I have a counterspell in hand so I can cast it?

I recommend casting Clique EOT so you can commence beatdown ASAP and at the same time have the mana available to counter any of his spells.



TBH, I don't play any Stoneforge deck :laugh:

[Sloshthedark]

Out of curiosity, since I don't have much experience playing against storm combo decks, what would a storm pilot do differently if they were expecting a Canonist versus not expecting one? Different SB? Different play?

As a Storm player, Canonist is exactly what would I've expected... nearly all list are netdecked the same...

against Ant is always correct to board as much GY hate as possible (only Extractins for TES) + counterspells... unless you are sure they don't play Xantid swarm, leave some Stp in +add jitte over batteskull... out some lands, planeswalkers (when you tap out you're probably dead) ... and use Snapcaster only for Spellsnare/CS lock... no stupid brainstorming EOT unless necessary... with tight play and decent luck you should win...

[Skeggi]

Guys, what are you thoughts on Geist of Saint Traft? Is it a good replacement for Vendilion Clique or should they both stay in the main deck?
Geist is very good, especially with Sword of X and Y (I still prefer Fire and Ice). Clique is a must for sideboard against combo and control.


And also, with this deck, when is the optimal moment to cast clique? 3r turn after the opponent drew a card? Or at EOT if I have a counterspell in hand so I can cast it?
Always at the end of the draw step and I think you need to cast Clique in basically every scenario against combo asap because next to hand-disruption you also put down a clock.


I recommend casting Clique EOT so you can commence beatdown ASAP and at the same time have the mana available to counter any of his spells.Why would you need mana to counter a spell when you can also Clique it away? What if he has a Chant, mana and an enabler like Infernal Tutor? I think Cliqueing asap is the best play in most scenario's.

[yutang]

I raised this question in another forum, but have we considered Mother of Runes as a 4 of - this may help with the Maverick MU.

She turns off their removal and blocks fatties all day. It lets us survive until Jace or until we assemble a beater with a billion Swords on him.

[lordofthepit]

And also, with this deck, when is the optimal moment to cast clique? 3r turn after the opponent drew a card? Or at EOT if I have a counterspell in hand so I can cast it?

It depends on the opponent and the situation. Usually, the correct answer is during your opponent's draw step, immediately, if you are trying to prevent them from dropping a sorcery-speed bomb in the mid-to-late game. During your opponent's draw step or EOT are both valid if you're trying to clear the way for your bomb on the next turn. If you're facing down an opposing planeswalker, and you need to flash in an evasive 3/1 flyer, it's often EOT. You might consider in response to a Jace Brainstorm activation to bottom their best threat.

Against Storm combo, the answer is usually "at the end of their ritual/LED chain"--the longer, the better--but it takes some skill to know read when they will end the chain. It's also a solid play in response to a Chant effect or a Thoughtseize. Against Show and Tell, the answer is either a) in response to the Show and Tell if they force the issue, but possibly b) at the end of their turn if they're slowly sculpting their hand and you need to apply some quick pressure on them. Against Aether Vial or Stoneforge Mystic, the correct answer is "in response to their activation", if possible; note that for this reason, it's often worth bluffing an Aether Vial activation even when you have nothing to drop.

[ivanpei]

So I'll be heading to GP KL to play the legacy side event and I feel like tuning my list towards it. I play the standard maindeck but with 4 Jaces and SOBM + 2 Paths. I don't count on hitting superfriends because being blue for pitching to Force is pretty important to me. Also if you draw 2 Jaces, you can just brainstorm it back in to the deck.

So since most of the players will be Malaysian, Singaporean and Filipino, the decks I'm expecting will be pretty budget. The last time I went I played 4c Landstill and got crushed by Goblins, Dragon Stompy and Eva Green. I expect to see the usual Tier 1 decks, but not a lot of them. The usual suspects would be combo elves, dredge, goblins, merfolk, burn and mono black/splash goyf.

So what do you guys suggest in this kind of meta? I'm going to replace my SOBM with Jitte because it is such a bomb against all sorts of tribal and burn. I can also use it to shoot my own creatures to get rid of bridges against dredge. I'll stick to my paths and Jaces in the main. For the board, here is what I'm playing:

2 Surgical
2 Purify the Grave (worse against dredge but insane VS reanimator)
3 Wrath of God (So much Aggro!)
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
4 Spell Pierce (Flexible Catchall)
2 Disenchant

Thoughts?

[lordofthepit]

Did this thread just lose like 5 days of posts?

[Water_Wizard]

Did this thread just lose like 5 days of posts?

Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.

[Water_Wizard]

2 Surgical
2 Purify the Grave (worse against dredge but insane VS reanimator)
3 Wrath of God (So much Aggro!)
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
4 Spell Pierce (Flexible Catchall)
2 Disenchant

Thoughts?
I think your sideboard looks really solid. It is probably too late to comment (you probably already played today) and it is impossible to comment on a sideboard without seeing the main deck list. You could probably drop a jace main and add an elspeth and drop and elspeth and crucible from the board to add 2 paths, if you expect a lot of budget decks. If you are running 4 STP, 4 PTE and 2 WOG, you could either add the 4th jace, 2nd elspeth, crucible or engineered explosives to the sideboard.

[preddi]

Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.

While i think you are right in general i have to say that nic fit has a bad matchup against U/W as any plainswalker wins the game on its own. So i found out that putting a plainswalker and protecting it against their pulses leads to an easy win.
I'm trying to tune my list to help the U/r and the Rug delver lists. I added Engineered explosives (i play UWr). Has anyone experience with this card in this matchup?

[matunos]

While i think you are right in general i have to say that nic fit has a bad matchup against U/W as any plainswalker wins the game on its own. So i found out that putting a plainswalker and protecting it against their pulses leads to an easy win.
I'm trying to tune my list to help the U/r and the Rug delver lists. I added Engineered explosives (i play UWr). Has anyone experience with this card in this matchup?

If you're playing a splash, EE is good in tons of situations. I think I maybe used it against a Delver list once. Great for getting rid of those 0-2cc bodies, especially when your opponent overcommits. Not having any 0-1cc creatures ourselves (other than the Germ) is a bonus. Just watch out for Stifle.

[matunos]

Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.

If you look, most of the DTB threads have been pretty quiet in the past week.

It's almost as if a new expansion just got released this weekend, and folks have been busy with that (and I didn't see much in DA that directly impacts us).

[lordofthepit]

Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.

I could have sworn there were quite a few posts in between.

[matunos]

I could have sworn there were quite a few posts in between.

I don't think so. I get email updates, and I don't see anything missing here. The Stoneblade thread over at mtgsalvation was a little more active, maybe you're confusing it with that?

[bkemke]

I'm having trouble against the mirror. I'm playing the fairy version with 3 REB in the sideboard. The rest of the deck is pretty typical.

I typically side out 4 Force and bring in 3 REB and a Crucible for the mirror but have still been loosing.

How do you side for the mirror and what plays are good?

[matunos]

I'm having trouble against the mirror. I'm playing the fairy version with 3 REB in the sideboard. The rest of the deck is pretty typical.

I typically side out 4 Force and bring in 3 REB and a Crucible for the mirror but have still been loosing.

How do you side for the mirror and what plays are good?

When you say you're playing the fairy version, do you mean Spellstutter Sprites, and instead of Snapcaster Mage?

If so, it's my opinion that Snapcaster > Spellstutter in general, and I think that's even more true with the red splash, what with bolts and REBs.

What specific problems are you running into?

[bkemke]

I play 4 snapcaster but no bolts main deck or sideboard. The red splash is only for REB.

The problem is I have repeatedly been loosing the mirror. It could be because I'm keeping bad hands or sideboarding poorly.

Is REB a good swap for FOW? Any other ideas for siding in the mirror?

[tangram]

@ matunos

I'm pretty sure the OP is using 4 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Vendilion Clique and some number of Mutavaults.

[matunos]

I play 4 snapcaster but no bolts main deck or sideboard. The red splash is only for REB.

The problem is I have repeatedly been loosing the mirror. It could be because I'm keeping bad hands or sideboarding poorly.

Is REB a good swap for FOW? Any other ideas for siding in the mirror?

How many red mana sources do you run? Do you find you're able to play the REBs when you need to? If so, then I would say swapping out the FoWs for them is a fine idea. But if you're running enough red to support 3 REBs, I think you should seriously consider running some bolts main.

But can you give more details about what happens in your games against the mirror?

[matunos]

@ matunos

I'm pretty sure the OP is using 4 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Vendilion Clique and some number of Mutavaults.

I'm not familiar with this mix. What's the point of running 2 Spellstutters? I'd probably look to swap them, and then replace the Mutavaults with Mishra's.

It's be helpful if bkemke posted a deck list so we don't have to guess.

[bum_man]

@bkemke: If you could reliably produce R for Red blasts, I suggest you go -1 SFM, -1 Counterspell, -1 Fow for the Red blasts. Boarding out FoWs completely is bad because you'd surely be lacking protection for your Planeswalkers. The Faerie build should be favored slightly against the non-faerie version because the high density of fliers gives you more ways to be able to kill off planeswalkers. Could you share your list so we could elaborate more? But basically given the standard faerie version lists played by Chris Van Meter and the like in SCG, I'd probably go with the above configuration. I'm not really sure how you could fit CoW in your deck since I don't play it in my 75. You could probably side-out differently but personally I wouldn't go below 3 fow, 3 sfm, BS and SoFaF, 4 snapcasters, and 4 snares against the mirror. Snares are gold since they counter SfMs and ScMs in the match-up. 3 FoWs is just enough for you to push through a key Clique or Planeswalker that tip the match in your favor.

@matunos: Sprites seem weak but it's really effective in this shell. It flies to chip loyalties of walkers, a flier that carries swords, and more importantly, it counters key 1 or 2 cc spells like Snare, Pierce, Mongoose, BS, ReB, MoR, Top, SfM that you otherwise would have very few answers for, FoWing these cards is a bad play IMO because it sets you back 2 cards for 1, leaves you without a FoW for other threats you couldn't otherwise answer with other cards, and more importantly, gives you a way to answer a key pierce or ReB on your own FoW over a key play in the game. I tried the non-Faerie version before with Pierces and often found myself with dead Pierces in hand because the opponents have already established a good manabase. I've recently switched to the Faerie version and have been very successful so far.

From your response, I assume you play the more recently popular non-Fae lists. Care to share your inputs regarding a non-Fae list?

[bkemke]

Ok, here's what I'm playing:
4 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge%20Mystic)
4 Snapcaster Mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage)
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare)
4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
4 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)
3 Jace, the Mindsculpter (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion%20Clique)
2 Spellstutter Sprite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spellstutter%20Sprite)
2 Counterspell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Elspeth,%20Knight-Errant)
1 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Feast%20and%20Famine)
4 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)
4 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded%20Strand)
4 Misty Rainforest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Misty%20Rainforest)
3 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
1 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)
2 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
2 Mutavault (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mutavault)
2 Volcanic Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volcanic%20Island)
1 Riptide Laboratory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Riptide%20Laboratory)
1 Karakas (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karakas)

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction)
3 Red Elemental Blast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Red%20Elemental%20Blast)
2 Wrath of God (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wrath%20of%20God)
3 Path to Exile (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Path%20to%20Exile)
2 Disenchant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Disenchant)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa's%20Jitte)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20%20Worlds)

I agree on valuing hands with spell snare highest. I recall that any time I've won the mirror, it's been on the back of spell snare. For those asking about the fairy build, personally, I've been very happy with Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Cliche. At worst Sprite counters a Ponder, best case a STP or Bolt

Thanks for the information so far given you had to guess at my decklist!

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

If this has already been discussed, sorry... I've been playing the most common list pretty much, just with no SSS for a month or so now. I don't play against a lot of Merfolk, and to be able to block with Mutavault and bounce it with Riptide Lab is too marginal, so I've really been happy using Factories. I've noticed most lists are shifting to x2 Equipment slots MD, I guess I really haven't done enough testing to notice a difference yet, although, I think x3 equips may be better in a list with Cliques and SSS though (more fliers to make swords more effective). Here is my list:

x4 Brainstorm
x4 Spell Snare
x4 Force of Will
x3 Counterspell
x4 Swords to Plowshares

x4 Snapcaster Mage
x4 Stoneforge Mystic
x3 Vendilion Clique

x3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
x1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

x1 Batterskull
x1 Umezawa's Jitte
x1 Sword of Feast and Famine

x1 Riptide Laboratory
x2 Mishra's Factory
x3 Wasteland
x4 Flooded Strand
x3 Polluted Delta
x2 Marsh Flats
x4 Tundra
x1 Karakas
x3 Island
x1 Plains

sb

x2 Wrath of God
x3 Path to Exile
x2 Grafdigger's Cage
x3 Surgical Extraction
x2 Spell Pierce
x1 Crucible of Worlds
x2 Disenchant

Can someone give me a little insight as to why everybody runs x2 Wasteland? I get that there's alot of UU in the deck, Counterspell, Jace and Clique. I guess it's just reliably having enough colored lands then? The deck plays 24 lands and a mix of Mishra's Factory, Mutavault and Wasteland with one of Riptide Lab.

Anyway, I was just really just wondering about people playing x2 Waste, it seems like every single successful list plays x2, so I took notice of it and am curious about it. Any other deck critique or thoughts are definitely welcome! Would it be greedy to play x3 Factories? That would 7 colorless lands in total but it does seem really good, I haven't been able to test it enough yet, but if anyone else has tried I'd be interested to hear how it worked out for them.

[lochlan]

Does anybody know what match-ups are bad for Blade Control? Are there any? (Surely, there must be?)

[Einherjer]

From my experience there are quite a few which are definitely NOT good.

1) Maverick: Every single card is a threat. Pre-Board very negative - postboard you have sweepers so its even. But mostly youll have to win G2+G3 to win the match...

2) Show and Tell: If not running black or red this MU is gonna be a pain in the ass. The HiveMind player got 8-10 Force of Will (Pact of Negation/Misdirection) and the SneakShow Player got Spell Pierces, Misdirections and Forces. Both decks have 2 outlets ( Show+Tell +HiveMind/SneakAttack) so yeah, a pretty straight UW Blade-Deck is going to have problems.

This are the two I can think of - but ofc there are many decks that are better than UW if their pilot is better (pretty obvious hu?)

So yeah, greetings

[preddi]

I think the worst matchup is actually dredge. Preboard very negative, postboard you can hope at least. But unless you draw multiple sideboard cards or surgical with snapcaster you will loose most of the time.

[matunos]

Anyway, I was just really just wondering about people playing x2 Waste, it seems like every single successful list plays x2, so I took notice of it and am curious about it. Any other deck critique or thoughts are definitely welcome! Would it be greedy to play x3 Factories? That would 7 colorless lands in total but it does seem really good, I haven't been able to test it enough yet, but if anyone else has tried I'd be interested to hear how it worked out for them.

Plenty of decks run 3 Wasteland, if that's what you're asking. I think it's a question of mana base and meta. Our Wastelands are mostly for defense, not mana denial (unless you have a Crucible out), so I think it comes down to how many utility lands/man lands are a problem in your meta. You want to be able to waste things like Ith, Towers, Groves, etc.

[matunos]

I think the worst matchup is actually dredge. Preboard very negative, postboard you can hope at least. But unless you draw multiple sideboard cards or surgical with snapcaster you will loose most of the time.

Isn't this the same situation with most decks against dredge? Lose game 1 and try to win games 2-3 with hate. You're going to mull until you hit some hate, so then it becomes a question of how well you time it, and how much you had to mull for it, and can you fix your draws.

If Dredge is a real problem, you can always opt for Leylines, but I prefer Surgical. With 3 in the board, 4 Snapcasters, 4 Brainstorms, plus removal, I think you have a decent chance to grind them out, all else being equal.

[Anusien]

How often is the second piece of equipment useful? How do you get it where the Batterskull wouldn't win you the game?

It seems to me that it should either be A) a second Batterskull or B) some other board control card that actually does something.

[Sigyn]

Pretty often if you face stuff like Tarmogoyf, Kotr, a big scavenging Ooze... a second batterskull is not necessary, you can't beat through them or block without losing your guy. I would also search for sword of feast and famine if i could get any profit of untapping my lands -to cast Elspeth+Jace for example, or simply if i must be untapped-.

The sword is also good against combo if you have some pressure and a good amount of life, since you can play with all you lands untapped in adition to disrupt a bit your opponent's hand.

The combination of Batterskull and Sword of Feast and famine seems to be the best build. In early game, with more reason if you are at G1 and you don't know what you're facing, batterskull is a great threat, but in the late game Sword has a lot of tricks and can stabilize the game against big green guys.

Sword of feast and famine also stops the batterskull germ! ;).

^^

PD. I'm sorry i missunderstood you, i thought you were takling about putting a secound batterskull instead of Soff.

[Anusien]

I *am* talking about replacing the Sword of Feast and Famine or Jitte or whatever with a second Batterskull.

If you have two Batterskull, it stops germs cold. It stops most Oozes (and you can block and bounce/re-play the Germ), Knights and such.

Against combo, I found I just wanted Batterskull and then I never wanted to tap mana again.

[lavafrogg]

I only play jitte as my second equipment as it turns creatures into killing machines while it is active. The only reason to ever search for the jitte is when I suspect the mystic to die and the equipment to be stuck in my hand for the forseeable future:/

An jitte on the board lets my factories pressure the opponent and turns any or my creatures from that moment on to be threats. A batterskull early can be thought seized away or stranded in my hand thanks to wasteland and friends.

When you have the mana, batterskull is the only card that should be fetched with mystic. Maybe a 2 skull 1 jitte plan will emerge as superior to what we are playing now but the protection from removal of light and shadow are too important to me at this moment.

P.s. I run 1 skull, 1 jitte and if need be 1 light and shadow.

[matunos]

I don't think a 2nd Batterskull is bad per se, but as others have pointed out, having a sword or jitte available gives you outs for when your SFM is removed and you can't (safely) hardcast the skull. SoFF lets you play through Choke and can be very useful with manlands (activate, equip, attack, untap, equip on a blocker). It's also something different, when you're facing a Runed Halo or Pithing Needle, for instance.

Combo tends to not have much removal, so I wouldn't necessarily use that as a general guide.

Personally, I'm not too keen on SoLS in Stoneblade. We don't run enough creatures to make its special ability of much use to us. Pro: White for what? StP? Run Geist and problem solved. Pro: Green is more relevant, IMO. I'm sure there are specific situations in which it's exceptional; but as much as the other non-standard sword, SoBM?

If you're worried about artifact hate on your Batterskull, there are other options, like Academy Ruins (also excellent with EE, if you're going that route); or not to play it out until you can also bounce it.

[sadakiyo]

Hi there, I just built this deck a month ago and haven't had much experience with SB strategy. I usually go to a small local tourneys. My meta is mostly aggro (Goblins, Nic fit, white weenie, merfolk, NO bant) with an emergence of some RUG tempo, UW stoneblade and BUG control.
Based on this, I tuned my build to have answer for aggro environment.
Here is my list (UWR Version)

Creature (11)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
3 Vendilion Clique
Spells (18)
2 Counterspell
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 STP
4 Brainstorm
1 Wrath Of God
Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 SOBAM
2 Vedalken Shackles
Planeswalker (3)
3 JTMS
Lands (24)
Standard lists, just like anybody else, so I wont post it.

SB
3 Surgical extraction
3 REB
1 WOG
3 PTE
2 Disenchant
3 Spell Pierce

Here is my usual SB strategy:
VS Nic Fit
-4 Stoneforge
-1 BatterSkull
-1 JTMS
+1 WOG
+3 PTE
+2 Surgical

VS Gobbos
-3 Spell Snare
-1 FOW
+3 PTE
+1 WOG

VS NO Bant (Still Not Sure about this, please comment)
-3 Spell Snare
-4 SFM
-1 Batterskull
+3 REB
+3 Spell Pierce
+1 WOG
+1 PTE

VS Mirror (please comment on this)
-4 FOW
-1 WOG
+3 REB
+2 spell pierce

VS RUG tempo (Please comment on this)
-4 FOW
-1 WOG
+2 PTE
+3 REB

VS BUG control (Please comment on this)
+3 spell Pierce
-1 WOG
-1 SOBAM
-1 FOW

Thanks for reading and sharing comments.

[lavafrogg]

Hello everyone!

I have been having alot of success on cockratrice with no planeswalkers in a standstill shell. I have been running 1x academy ruins 1x dust bowl 1x kjeldorian outpost 1x tolaria west 4x factories to give me huge game under a standstill. The outpost is quite amazing at helping kill planeswalkers in that a 1/1 token ever turn fills the board quickly.

Even against elspeth a 1/1 token a turn and one other creature can take her out. Against jace... He either has to use the -1 every turn or just brainstorm and the tokens.... Not typically a good idea. I have been finding the planeswalkers very win more in many matchups and sided out frequently.

The format is speeding up again and I feel that u/w blade has the tools to stay a dtb for quite some time. The snapcaster/mystic combo is just too strong.

My list btw:

4 snapcaster Mage
4 stoneforge mystic

1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 crucible of worlds

4 standstill
4 brainstorm

4 swords to plowshares
3 disenchants

4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce

4 mishra's factory
1 kjeldorian outpost
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
1 dust bowl
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 islands
1 plains
3 polluted delta
1 riptide laboratory

Artifacts and enchantments are at an all time high right now and not having to waste countermagic on them game one is a huge boon. Between equipment, affinity, moxes, vials, orings and god knows what other schenanigans are played in legacy disenchants should be mainboardable. Against super fast aggro/burn they are the first cards to come out... Making side boarding easier;)

Btw.... Wraths main/sideboard seem like a crutch. 12+sword effects seem like enough against most aggro decks. If you are having trouble against non targetable creatures, try EE or wing shards as you can leave your small creature base intact.

[matunos]

Kjeldoran Outpost used to be the bomb back in the day. Today, I can't think of any reason I wouldn't rather have Elspeth. You only have 4 plains in your whole deck, and 3 of them are duals. How is Wasteland not eating you for breakfast?

Speaking of which, Dust Bowl instead of Wasteland? That sounds highly suspect. I don't want to have to tap out to kill a Grove or Maze.

I'd love Tolaria West if its transmute cost were 1mc instead of 3, or if Transmute at least had the speed of an instant. 3mc is just too high, IMO. If you want to tutor for lands, I suggest considering Bant and playing KotR.

[lavafrogg]

As I am finding out, planeswalkers are very expensive and slow against many decks. The best uses for planeswalkers seems to be as late game bombs against other slower decks/decks that have ran out of steam.

The version I am working on can squeeze in extra relavent cards for the matchups that matter and operates the best under a standstill for card advantage when it matters.

The late game plan has been built into the mana base with only the crucible of worlds as a cast able card. The outpost will build an army to down planeswalkers(along with factories/weenies) and the dust bowl ensures you build an advantage the later the game goes on. I am not trying to out tempo anyone with wasteland, but I want to cripple an opponent when I need to.

With the 3 disenchants mainboard, I do not have to worry about other equipment decks, aka the mirror, and can use my land/standstill advantage to ride to victory. When you have the board stabilized it shouldn't matter what you win with, as long as you win.

On the mana costs, I only need white mana in single doses and only for a few cards. Many decks only run 2-3 basics and this one could easily fit in another plains. With most decks packing 2-3 wastelands I have been fine landing my outpost when I need to. Let alone when the time comes to drop the crucible and win the game.

[sadakiyo]

On what matchup we want to side in Surgical Extraction? (I know that dredge and other GY decks are one of them).

[Jacob]

The primer needs updating. All the talk about the strengths of Misstep versus various decks kind of dates it.

[matunos]

On what matchup we want to side in Surgical Extraction? (I know that dredge and other GY decks are one of them).

Punishing Fire is another.

[Maëlig]

My current list :

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Tropical Island (for EE)
3 Tundra
2 Wasteland

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevermore


The enlightened tutor approach is somewhat of an experiment, but I like it so far. The MD tutor targets are all cards I'm happy to see anyways, and it's nice to have such flexibility pre-board. Post-board it's meant to help in the most difficult MU : cage vs dredge, nevermore / bridge / canonist vs show&tell decks, and especially cursed totem against maverick. That last one has been incredible, it single-handedly dominates them unless they play grip / grudge (few do). I might cut a path or a disenchant for a 2nd tutor in the board. I'm also considering replacing B2B with blood moon. Opinions?

[bum_man]

On what matchup we want to side in Surgical Extraction? (I know that dredge and other GY decks are one of them).
I side them in against RUG Tempo, being able to surgical away their Volcanic Islands early in the game is back breaking. So as being able to surgical away FOW or their lightning bolts or fire/ices.

[bum_man]

I *am* talking about replacing the Sword of Feast and Famine or Jitte or whatever with a second Batterskull.

If you have two Batterskull, it stops germs cold. It stops most Oozes (and you can block and bounce/re-play the Germ), Knights and such.

Against combo, I found I just wanted Batterskull and then I never wanted to tap mana again.
I've tested a second Batterskull, and I prefer a SoFaF over it. Against an opposing skull mirrors against Maverick and Stoneblade, SoFaF saved me the game by disabling the opponent's Batterskull cold. Against Maverick, my SFM with SoFaF kept me in the game by holding off his token until I could remove it, he didn't have the mana to re-cast it if he ever put it back in his hand. Later, the same SFM was holding off his Gaddock Teeg with SoBaM, Jitte and BS equipped till I was able to top deck my way into removal. I got my removal for the Teeg and won the game from there.

Against stoneblade, a SoFaF on a Spellstuter Sprite killed-off an opposing Jace and held-off an opposing germ token. I eventually got Elspeth online and rode her to an eventual victory.

In both cases, a batterskull wouldn't have kept me in the game for long especially against the Maverick opponent who eventually got multiple swords online to easily outclass my batterskull. Not to mention it kept him from geting his Jitte online as well. Against the stoneblade mirror, he eventually got his germ on a SoFaF and a bs instead of SoFaF would've lost me the game because of the protection given by his SoFaF.

A key advantage of SoFaF against an opposing bs is that they don't get to gain life from you blocking which is a key in keeping them from taking advantage in the game slowly by just gaining life.

Against combo, I haven't tested against it much I wouldn't think a second batterskull would make a difference if you can't tutor for it. If you can though, it would much rather get a SoFaF for the discard ability and for it being able at least a turn faster in being able to have an impact in the game.

[klaus]

@maelig:

with elspeth being the only spell with WW I see know need for basic plains #2 at all.

Even with 2 Wrath in the board I haven't had issues with a single basic plains.

I'd definitely replace it with a Windeswept Heath that way you're still able to fetch basic plains, as well as Tropical Island.

Give it a shot.

[Maëlig]

@maelig:

with elspeth being the only spell with WW I see know need for basic plains #2 at all.

Even with 2 Wrath in the board I haven't had issues with a single basic plains.

I'd definitely replace it with a Windeswept Heath that way you're still able to fetch basic plains, as well as Tropical Island.

Give it a shot.
Good point, I'll try that.



VS Nic Fit
-4 Stoneforge
-1 BatterSkull
-1 JTMS
+1 WOG
+3 PTE
+2 Surgical
You can side out spell snare, they're utterly useless in this MU. On the other hand, I would never cut a jace which are so good against them, explorer allows you to play them early in the game and they have no good way to deal with it appart from pulse (or attacking if they get an aggressive enough board). I would also consider boarding in 1-2 disenchants, as they often play choke in the SB.



VS Mirror (please comment on this)
-4 FOW
-1 WOG
+3 REB
+2 spell pierce
I think I would side out shackles and StP before FoW in the mirror. Thing is, there are some key spells that are worth fighting over (i.e. planeswalkers), and the CD isn't so bad since games often last long and you get the opportunity to hardcast FoW. Besides, with every creature having cip effects, StP is CD too.

While we're on SB strategies, has anyone tried Linvala as a 1 or 2 of against maverick (most likely replacing WoG)? It's unexpected and if they boarded out their StP (as they should in this MU) and you keep PF under control (OK, that's a big if) it basically gives you the game. Even if they can double PF, you can take the opportunity to kill the moms with the swords/path you've kept in hand before Linvala dies. It also gets you out of that horrible situation when there's both a mom and a teeg in play.

[matunos]

While we're on SB strategies, has anyone tried Linvala as a 1 or 2 of against maverick (most likely replacing WoG)? It's unexpected and if they boarded out their StP (as they should in this MU) and you keep PF under control (OK, that's a big if) it basically gives you the game. Even if they can double PF, you can take the opportunity to kill the moms with the swords/path you've kept in hand before Linvala dies. It also gets you out of that horrible situation when there's both a mom and a teeg in play.

The selectiveness of Linvala's ability is nice, but the 4cc is a bit steep, IMO. I think I'd be more inclined to run Cursed Totem instead. While it effects us too, I think The impact is balanced against the Maverick player, cause we only have 4 creatures with an activated ability, and we can just hardcast our equipment when we need to. Meanwhile, it nullifies Qasali Pridemage's ability. While the totem is subject to artifact hate itself, it forces your opponent to (a) have an artifact hate spell, and (b) use it on the totem instead of our equipment. A deck relying on Pridemage is less likely to be bringing in much additional artifact hate (aside from more Pridemages), IMO.

[ivanpei]

I still can't decide in between soff, sobm and jitte as my 2nd equipment. Soff is best in the sfm batterskull mirrors and against goyfs and Co.

Sobm is really strong for building board position later in the game and also has very nice protection colours. I find that sobm really frustrates jace TMS and also destroys rug tempo. Fetching batterskull with sfm against rug tempo isn't great because sfm will get fried and hardcase batterskull is almost impossible against them. If you fetch sobm, it's easier to. Hardcast and is a bomb against rug. Pro all their creatures and having a token every turn really swings the game around.

Jitte on the other hand is better against tribal and burn decks. I guess it really boils down to the meta.

[matunos]

I still can't decide in between soff, sobm and jitte as my 2nd equipment. Soff is best in the sfm batterskull mirrors and against goyfs and Co.

Sobm is really strong for building board position later in the game and also has very nice protection colours. I find that sobm really frustrates jace TMS and also destroys rug tempo. Fetching batterskull with sfm against rug tempo isn't great because sfm will get fried and hardcase batterskull is almost impossible against them. If you fetch sobm, it's easier to. Hardcast and is a bomb against rug. Pro all their creatures and having a token every turn really swings the game around.

Jitte on the other hand is better against tribal and burn decks. I guess it really boils down to the meta.

The thing that keeps me from considering SoBM is that there's just too many decks that interact with their graveyards (Dredge, Reanimator, various Snapcaster decks, even Enchantress) for me to want to help them. Having the wolf tokens would be nice, though. I don't find Pro:Blue that compelling... it protects your guy from Jace (and helps you kill him), more or less. It's not that that's bad, but overall, I think SoFF shares the more useful protection (Pro:Green) and the free land untap is fantastic, especially when you throw the sword on a Mishra's for attack.

I've had mixed success with the Jitte, because it's so vulnerable, and I've had difficulty getting it charged that initial time. That may have more to do with my own substandard playing than its place in the deck, and its potential keeps me holding onto it. Right now, I'm playing both SoFF and Jitte main, although thinking of moving the Jitte to SB as I'm testing benching my Clique there as well.

I play Geist main, and I find him much more powerful with a SoFF than an uncharged Jitte (although with one charged, he is a beast).

[SupREME-10]

I have been using SoF&I as my alternate gear to get aside from Batterskull and it is solid vs Izzet Delver, RUG, and many suit-o mirror matches that rely on Blue dudes. The card draw is solid to gain you serious card advantage, and the added damage fling is very versatile.

Anyway, I run SoF&F with Batterskull maindeck, and keep the SoF&I ready in the SB and it has helped in my meta.

Just saying.

[matunos]

I have been using SoF&I as my alternate gear to get aside from Batterskull and it is solid vs Izzet Delver, RUG, and many suit-o mirror matches that rely on Blue dudes. The card draw is solid to gain you serious card advantage, and the added damage fling is very versatile.

Anyway, I run SoF&F with Batterskull maindeck, and keep the SoF&I ready in the SB and it has helped in my meta.

Just saying.

I had SoFI in my SB since starting Stoneblade, but I just don't find myself bringing it in that often. The benefit of Geist is that he's immune to bolts, so almost any sword on him will be good just for the +2/+2. Against RU Delver, of course, but not much else. Do you side it in vs RUG Delver? Or Zoo? I don't think my current 75 has room for both Jitte and SoFI, so I'm eager to hear a compelling case for one over the other.

My meta has some Zoo, the mirror, Stone Bant, Enchantress, Dredge, Delver, Merfolk.

[klaus]

I had SoFI in my SB since starting Stoneblade, but I just don't find myself bringing it in that often. The benefit of Geist is that he's immune to bolts, so almost any sword on him will be good just for the +2/+2. Against RU Delver, of course, but not much else. Do you side it in vs RUG Delver? Or Zoo? I don't think my current 75 has room for both Jitte and SoFI, so I'm eager to hear a compelling case for one over the other.

My meta has some Zoo, the mirror, Stone Bant, Enchantress, Dredge, Delver, Merfolk.


In this meta I'd DEFINITELY play SoFI over Jitte in the MD.

[Koby]

So is the consensus to play three equipment main deck with no Jitte?

[SupREME-10]

Here is my latest inception of the deck.

Azoruis Stoneblade.

1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice

4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Spell Pierce
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique

2 x Geist of Saint Traft

2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Swords to Plowshares

3 x Island
2 x Plains
3 x Tundra
3 x Flooded Strand
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Karakas
2 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Riptide Laboratory
3 x Wasteland

Sideboard

1 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
1 x Oblivion Ring
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Wrath of God

Comments and suggestion welcome; but this has been testing very well.

[klaus]

Here is my latest inception of the deck.

Azoruis Stoneblade.

1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice

4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Spell Pierce
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique

2 x Geist of Saint Traft

2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Swords to Plowshares

3 x Island
2 x Plains
3 x Tundra
3 x Flooded Strand
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Karakas
2 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Riptide Laboratory
3 x Wasteland

Sideboard

1 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
1 x Oblivion Ring
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Wrath of God

Comments and suggestion welcome; but this has been testing very well.

I don't like the Spell Pierces that card does not belong in control decks' MDs imo.
I'd like to see 2 Ponders in those slots.

22 seems like you're missing one land, especially if 7 of your lands are non blue.

Oblivion Ring is a MD card (Swiss army knife) - the SB should be reserved for specific hate. S.EXtraction #4 would be my personal choice.

[matunos]

Here is my latest inception of the deck.

Azoruis Stoneblade.

1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice

4 x Brainstorm
2 x Counterspell
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Spell Pierce
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique

2 x Geist of Saint Traft

2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Swords to Plowshares

3 x Island
2 x Plains
3 x Tundra
3 x Flooded Strand
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Karakas
2 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Riptide Laboratory
3 x Wasteland

Sideboard

1 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Disenchant
1 x Oblivion Ring
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Wrath of God

Comments and suggestion welcome; but this has been testing very well.

Apropos to the previous discussion, under what circumstances do you side out your SoFI for the Jitte?

[ivanpei]

So is the consensus to play three equipment main deck with no Jitte?

I'm totally fine with 2 equips. If you really must play 3, one of em should be a jitte. The reduced mana cost of jitte can be the difference sometimes.

[SupREME-10]

Vs super fast decks like U/R Delver I have actually sided out the Batterskull for the Jitte. OK I am weird; but here is my reasoning (at the time).

I figured if turn 2+ I use a Stoneforge to get Batterskull in hand, the opponent will simply smoke the Stoneforge and I can't cast the bloody Skull. Thus I go get the Jitte as it casts dirt cheap, and equipe to anything at all that sticks (even a man land) and start adding life, or +2/+2, or -1/-1 as needed.

The SoF&I is actually a seriously good card, and I often see it having more use than the SoF&F has for me. If I am not playing vs Goyf's, Knights, etc I generally don't need the land untap that much, and my card advantage is certain while potentially having an opponent discard is not always a disadvantage to them. So the Jitte comes in for SoF&F more often than for SoF&I.

Now you may all go ahead and start the bashings for me playing things a little outside of the box.

Thanks for the comments above, as you are right about the deck needing 23 lands and an O-ring MB.... I fixed those now, although I am not so impressed by Ponder that I would use it to displace a Spell Snare; thus I simply dropped the 2x Spell Pierce.

[Samara]

Here is my build, could you guys give me a hand?

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (thinking about move one to sb)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek

3 Jace, TMS
2 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

-------------------
23 Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Moorland Haunt (test it, I beg you)
1 Island
1 Plains

------------
The problem is that bob and stoneforger often dies before they can give me card advantage or lay batterskull... still I think is correct to run both, otherwise the stoneforge would ALWAYS die... so I'm used to use one as bait, so I can proced with the another as my game plan... IofK helps me make this decision.

Its more like "if you have to run 4 creatures that MUST die, then run 8".

I added the moorland haunt only recently but already won some games only because of it... with jitte the opponent generaly would like to kill all my creatures, but with moorland that becomes impossible. (of course i'm talking about "bolt" when i say "kill")

Still, the build sometimes give me the impression that it could hit more, I find myself in control of the game but unable to finish quickly enought. Maybe adding geists would help.

I'm against the use of cliques, I had then, but always ended up trading then for one more turn against a goyf or reliquary... I realy hated pay 3 mana to lay a creature that can't be traded for a goyf if needed.

So... what you guys think? o.o... may someone give me a light?

I realy think geist can be awsome but don't know what to take off...

[Samara]

Ah! Forgot to ask... what you guys think of tidehollow sculler? Is only 2 mana, and he knows how to hold a sword or jitte... o.o

[Jiaozy]

Here is my build, could you guys give me a hand?

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (thinking about move one to sb)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek

3 Jace, TMS
2 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

-------------------
23 Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Moorland Haunt (test it, I beg you)
1 Island
1 PlainsWith Bob in the deck and 5 cards at 5cc and 3 cards at 4 cc I would play at least 2 maybe 3 Sensei's Divining Top to avoid being killed by your own Confidant and, even without Bob, they just make the deck run a lot better.
I'd start by cutting the 2 Ponder for them, then see if 2 are enough or you need to fit another one in the deck!

[from Cairo]

22 seems like you're missing one land, especially if 7 of your lands are non blue.



3 x Island
2 x Plains
3 x Tundra
3 x Flooded Strand
2 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Karakas
2 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Riptide Laboratory
3 x Wasteland


I count 9 non-Blue; 13 Blue sources strikes me as quite light for a deck supporting Counterspell, Vendilion Clique, Jace, TMS and Snapcaster Mage. I'd try to jam another Flooded Strand perhaps over a spell slot and probably a 4th Island over one of the 6 colorless sources.

[SupREME-10]

Well guys I actually added an island and a ponder to the deck by dropping the 2x spell pierce. It has seams to have evened out some of the clunkyness to the deck so thanks for the responses. I have only given it 10 or so runs so far to test it out but I have noticed a difference already.

And for my Meta, I need Wastelands and the other utility lands in my deck.

[from Cairo]

23 (with 14 Blue) and a Ponder sounds totally defensible. Of your 7 Fetches (posted: 3 Flooded, 2 Misty, 2 Scalding), 4 should be Flooded Strand though, right? I mean there's no downside to having 4 options to fetch the basic Plains.

On UW with 7 Fetches I would think the 'optimal' would be 4 Flooded, 1 Misty, 1 Scalding, 1 Polluted.

[Water_Wizard]

Here is my build, could you guys give me a hand?

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (thinking about move one to sb)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek

3 Jace, TMS
2 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

-------------------
23 Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Moorland Haunt (test it, I beg you)
1 Island
1 Plains

------------
So... what you guys think? o.o... may someone give me a light?

I realy think geist can be awsome but don't know what to take off...


With Bob in the deck and 5 cards at 5cc and 3 cards at 4 cc I would play at least 2 maybe 3 Sensei's Divining Top to avoid being killed by your own Confidant and, even without Bob, they just make the deck run a lot better.
I'd start by cutting the 2 Ponder for them, then see if 2 are enough or you need to fit another one in the deck!

Completely agree with Jiaozy - you need SDT with Bob.
You may want to diversify your removal suit - for example, 2-3 STP, 1-2 PTE, 1 Ghastly Demise, 1 GFTT. Also, you may wish to do the same with your discard suit - 2 IoK, 2 Thoughseize, maybe add Duress or additional discard in the board against combo/control. Diversifying your removal/discard suit also leaves you less susceptible to surgical extraction/extirpate.
Riptide Laboratory may be a worthwhile 1-of for Snapcaster recursion. Since you are going to be filtering through your deck rather quickly (Brainstorm, Jace, SDT, Bob), you should consider cutting your threats to 2-3 each and relying on Snapcaster recursion for what you need.
I would add a few basics to your mana base. I would drop the Mishra's, 1 fetch and a Tundra for 3 Islands and 1 Swamp.
You may also be right to cut the FOW to 3 or move them to the board, as you are only running about 16 blue cards after you add SDT. Force likes 17+, preferably 19, blue sources for alternative casting cost.

Since Sorin was spoiled, I've been looking for a deck similar to yours, but running Sorin, Elspeth, and Vindicate, perhaps with Humility. Maybe a Superfriends build, just a question of finding the right balance and focus for the deck. Has anyone successfully run Sorin in legacy? Especially in a WUB build?

[Samara]

Completely agree with Jiaozy - you need SDT with Bob.
You may want to diversify your removal suit - for example, 2-3 STP, 1-2 PTE, 1 Ghastly Demise, 1 GFTT. Also, you may wish to do the same with your discard suit - 2 IoK, 2 Thoughseize, maybe add Duress or additional discard in the board against combo/control. Diversifying your removal/discard suit also leaves you less susceptible to surgical extraction/extirpate.
Riptide Laboratory may be a worthwhile 1-of for Snapcaster recursion. Since you are going to be filtering through your deck rather quickly (Brainstorm, Jace, SDT, Bob), you should consider cutting your threats to 2-3 each and relying on Snapcaster recursion for what you need.
I would add a few basics to your mana base. I would drop the Mishra's, 1 fetch and a Tundra for 3 Islands and 1 Swamp.
You may also be right to cut the FOW to 3 or move them to the board, as you are only running about 16 blue cards after you add SDT. Force likes 17+, preferably 19, blue sources for alternative casting cost.

Since Sorin was spoiled, I've been looking for a deck similar to yours, but running Sorin, Elspeth, and Vindicate, perhaps with Humility. Maybe a Superfriends build, just a question of finding the right balance and focus for the deck. Has anyone successfully run Sorin in legacy? Especially in a WUB build?

Actualy... I was using SDT earlier... mainly cause of bobs... but I ended up seeing that I almost always spend mana that I would otherwise cast creatures or aswers... I just never seen to have enought mana... Its hard to have 4-5 mana as I need to cast two spells (5 if one is snapcaster)... I also saw that I most times cast SDT and immediatily search for the land drop or removal in emergency... then I would get the "wharever card I need" and would have to draw the SDT again... And cast it again.

Thats why I droped it for ponders, And because ponder is blue.

I could drop 1 Fetch and 1 Tundra for more 2 basics... Again, I was running 2 Islands, 1 Swamp and 1 Plains a week ago... But I cannot drop Mishra's, as I already complained as how the deck has a problem with board presence and finishers... droping mishras wouldn't make that even worst?

I already have one Riptide Lab... I could fit it... You guys manage to use the snapcaster recurring? I mean... 3 for caster + 3 for bounce in the block step, that being completely tapped out, having 6 mana... I probabily shouldn't just transform mishra, equip jitte and hit for 4 mana?... I don't know... am I using fewer lands then I should? Or the trick is lay caster in one turn and bounce in the next?

The reason to use more basics is to fetch then from the starte to become imune to wasteland? So, how much would be optimal? 2 Island, 1 and 1?

So...that's it? Sensei's Divining Top, diversifing removal/discard and basic lands?... o.o

[Samara]

In this build you could easily trade the 3rd jace for one elpeth or sorin... but It would be better if using 3 fow. I think would be something like

-1 caster -2 dark confidant -1 jace

+1 sorin +1 elpeth +2 ghastly demise

You would have a very strong planeswalker suit, the extra removals would give you time to estabilsh that... But I think the problem is that the RUG delver and UR delver, and another tempo decks, beeing so fast... and the standand uw blade beeing so controlish, you would fall between then having no good match in current meta.

Still would be strong against all mid range decks. Elspeth just win by herself more times than it should.

[Koplinchen]

It's a different deck. Go to ESPER thread.
One suggestion - you dont have to run 4 mage, confidant...

[Samara]

Actualy no... this is the right thread.

The Esper is for Tempo Esper... a very diferent deck.

Mine is a blade control. With black for confidant and inquisition.... that allows me to estabilish alternative gameplans.

The UW blade build uses much more controling cards, while mine is a mid range, you have a strong control suite in form of 3 jaces and snapcasters, moorland haunt, equipments, forces.... but you should be still fast enought to kill a more control deck with a more aggro gameplan...

the curve is almost all 1-2 CMC cards (only force, batterskull and jaces are more)

What I more like about this build is how Dark Confidant and Snapcaster are so much valuable now that I have jitte to equip then... They are not "just" control and card advantage tools... with jitte you can realy get there...

Jitte/jace/ponder/brainstorm all have sinergy with dark confidant.

And I realy can't imagine how you guys manage keep the stoneforge mystic for a turn without having another "must kill" creature.

Jace, Bob, Jitte having flashble snapcasters or waiting mishras, Batterskull ... anything not killed imediatly becomes a major problem for the opponent.

[Koplinchen]

Don't worry, I know this deck. It sounds nice, but it sucks. Honestly.
Dark Confidant doesent fit in this deck at all. We have Jace, so why would you tap out early on to play smth. which will get killed without value - 1 for 1. (unlike SC of SFM)
We dont want to take any extra damage - even if you play 2 fow and 2 jace you will flip them and die.

I can understand black splash for Thoughtseize or Inquisition. But it weakens the manabase so much I wouldnt bother.
I like this list:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/5358#71286

No DC.

[Water_Wizard]

But I cannot drop Mishra's, as I already complained as how the deck has a problem with board presence and finishers... droping mishras wouldn't make that even worst?

Riptide Lab... am I using fewer lands then I should? Or the trick is lay caster in one turn and bounce in the next?

The reason to use more basics is to fetch then from the starte to become imune to wasteland? So, how much would be optimal? 2 Island, 1 and 1?

So...that's it? Sensei's Divining Top, diversifing removal/discard and basic lands?... o.o
I really like the deck Koplinchen provided. It cuts Bob, so it solves the SDT question and frees up some slots. The Vindicates are also nice multi-purpose removal (and can punish an opponent who is short on mana).
The idea with Riptide and SCM is to bounce it EOT and flashback an instant. You are right, 6 mana is a lot to keep casting it, but this is why it is a mid-to-late game trick. Riptide Lab is one of the cards that either barely makes it or gets cut, it may save your ass a few games, but overall, it is usually just a colorless source. Since you have 2 Haunts, I thought you could do 1 Riptide, 1 Haunt, but this is up to you. Karakas is also nice, not sure if you have access to one. Additionally, if you are running Clique, Riptide and Karakas gain extra value.
Yes, the idea behind the basics is to become immune to wasteland. You should be running about 24 lands - you have 23, which is alright, because you have to 4 brainstorms and 2 ponders. You really want to hit your first 4 land drops quickly so you can play a Jace. Against an opponent with wastelands or an unknown opponent who may have wastelands, you want to fetch out basics first to prevent mana screw and take value away from their wastelands. Since your deck has a relatively high mana cost, I would say 4 basics at a minimum. A lot of the 'traditional' U/W lists are running 6 basics.

[Samara]

I don't understand how you guys can have such a bad concensus about Dark Confidant.

First of all... he doesn't kill you... never. If you ever played confidant you would know that dark confidant almost never survive more than 2 turns, cause the opponent always spend everything he has on it.

He knows that if you draw 2 cards a turn... he will lose.

Someone can arge that I have 4 FOW + 1 Batterskull + 3 Jaces... That's to much...but in reality... they are 8 cards that hit me if revealed by bob... while I have other 50 cards that would hit 2 or less, beeing 22 lands, having brainstorm and ponder...

There is absolutily no way you can die for your own bob, except gainst a monored burn (still it can be your salvation anyways)

People chose Vendillion Clique over confidant o.o... Why is that? Actualy, is not cuz Clique hits 3, or can trade cards from opponent hand.. its because it allows me to not tap out...

Thats what Koplinchen said "why would we wanna tap out early".... That's realy a wrong perspective... I want/must tap out... the deck has no card that would give me control for not taping stuff... (the exception might be the spell snare, only 2 for maximize snapcaster value)

Can't you guys see the diference? Is not a Standstill type of control.. a draw-go blade variante as UW. It runs very diferently... If understanding this concept still has something to add, I would be very glad to hear.

Edgar Flores's Build
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42131

My New Build:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Moorland Haunt
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


------------

I added more basics, as I realy thought thats a correct change... I cutted spell snares and one snapcaster for one more ponder and 2 geists (as I complained before, I wanted a finisher creature)

I think maybe I could use 22 lands and 4 ponders, for adding consistency, mainteining the 4 fow md while improving the consistence of the deck.

Still maybe 4 bs and 4 ponder is to much... So i keeped 23 lands... what u guys think?

(Sorry about my english)

[matunos]

Can't you guys see the diference? Is not a Standstill type of control.. a draw-go blade variante as UW. It runs very diferently... If understanding this concept still has something to add, I would be very glad to hear.

I think this is a good reason that this discussion on builds like this be under an Esper Blade thread. That's not saying the deck's not worthy of discussion, but since you're consciously diverging from the control aspects of UWx Stoneblade, I think it best to keep the strategy discussions separate and focused.

[Stan]

Hello, long time player, new member here.

I run a more aggro version of this deck, with two mirran crusaders maindeck (and SoFI instead of SoFF, because the latter is a bit redundant with the knight). So far, the results have been mixed. Have you guys tried out this creature in your builds?

[Einherjer]

In order to understand your build the proper way itd be pretty helpful if youd post your list - is 4 Snapcaster 4 Stoneforge 4-5 Faires already alot of creatures? Or do you play Mother of Runes? Geist of Saint Traft? Give us information :)

[Stan]

In order to understand your build the proper way itd be pretty helpful if youd post your list - is 4 Snapcaster 4 Stoneforge 4-5 Faires already alot of creatures? Or do you play Mother of Runes? Geist of Saint Traft? Give us information :)

4 Stoneforge, 3 Snapcaster, 2 Crusaders, 1 Geist (I'm looking to trade into a second, I'll have it soon), 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI 1 Elspeth, 2 Jace, no factories on account of small black splash for the sideboard (engineered plague and perish)

I also play with 2 Path to Exile next to the standard 4 stp, and I have a playset of Ethersworn Canonist in the side (lots of stormcombo in the meta).

A doublestriking knight with equipment is just mean, and I found it holds the ground against a whole lot of decks, but it is never a stellar card. It's often good, but seldom great.

[matunos]

4 Stoneforge, 3 Snapcaster, 2 Crusaders, 1 Geist (I'm looking to trade into a second, I'll have it soon), 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI 1 Elspeth, 2 Jace, no factories on account of small black splash for the sideboard (engineered plague and perish)

I also play with 2 Path to Exile next to the standard 4 stp, and I have a playset of Ethersworn Canonist in the side (lots of stormcombo in the meta).

A doublestriking knight with equipment is just mean, and I found it holds the ground against a whole lot of decks, but it is never a stellar card. It's often good, but seldom great.

8 to the face (or a lot more, if you're using Jitte ), plus whatever effects you get from the equipment, doesn't suck. But it seems like the downside of Crusader versus Geist would be that Crusader doesn't have protection from StP or, until equipped with SoFI, bolts. He can stand down an opposing Batterskull though.

In your experience with him, what keeps him from being stellar?


If my calculation is correct, a Jitte-equipped Crusader could do 24 damage in two swings (starting from an uncharged Jitte).

[anwei]

If my calculation is correct, a Jitte-equipped Crusader could do 24 damage in two swings (starting from an uncharged Jitte).

(Not that it matters much, but you can do 28, if you use both of the first sets of charges on the 2nd turn and the 3rd set between rounds of combat damage, you get in for 2+2+10+14)

[Hanni]

Hmm, I think I'm missing something.

Mirran equipped with a Jitte with no counters on the first turn of swings, swings for 2 during the first strike phase. 2 Jitte counters pumps him to 6/6, so you get 8 damage on the first turn of swings.

On the second turn of swings, he smacks for 6 during the first strike phase, then the 2 counters pumps him to 10/10, so you get 16 damage on the second turn of swings.

8 + 16 = 24

How did you calculate 28?

[anwei]

Don't pump on the first turn - that might not be the best play, but gets the highest sum.

t1: Swing in for 2 (2 counters), then 2 more without pumping (4 counters).
t2: Pump +8/+8 (0 counters), swing in for 10 (2 counters), pump another +4/+4 between first strike and normal damage (0 counters), swing in for 14.
2+2+10+14=28

I didn't play for quite a while during (I think) M10 rules changes though, so I *believe* there is still priority between first strike damage and normal damage, but could be wrong (though you both assume that).

[lordofthepit]

Don't pump on the first turn - that might not be the best play, but gets the highest sum.

t1: Swing in for 2 (2 counters), then 2 more without pumping (4 counters).
t2: Pump +8/+8 (0 counters), swing in for 10 (2 counters), pump another +4/+4 between first strike and normal damage (0 counters), swing in for 14.
2+2+10+14=28

I didn't play for quite a while during (I think) M10 rules changes though, so I *believe* there is still priority between first strike damage and normal damage, but could be wrong (though you both assume that).

You are correct.

[Hanni]

Can't believe I missed that. Thanks.

[Stan]

matunos: He doesn't swing games out of nothing (but I'm not sure that's a fair and realistic expectation for a three mana beater). Swords to Plowshares and not being pitchable to FoW are the two main disadvantages to the card, compared to Geist. Its main advantage is that it rapes elves (an often seen part of the metagame here) and Tarmogoyf with a broomstick, and can hold off Knight of the Reliquary.