[DTB] Blade Control

[SupREME-10]

Mirran Crusader is most certainly a brick house with a sword attached; I like him with the SoF&I as he is hitting for 4+4, and doing 2+2 damage where ever I need to place it, and is Pro GBUR, and gives me 2 cards to work with as well. But lets face it, if you get a Mirran to stick and get a sword attached; then it is pretty well GG in two turns of less anyway.

I have considered swapping him for the 2x Vendilion Click in my deck but the issue of color still gives me reservations.

PS, StoP is an issue for almost any creature, so I don't consider that a real factor.

[matunos]

PS, StoP is an issue for almost any creature, so I don't consider that a real factor.

It's a factor if your alternative is Geist.

[Slime]

Hi everyone,

I've been having lots of trouble in the past beating Maverick and Death & Taxes with blade control. My most recent try to improve those matchups without giving up to much in the others involves Humility with Enlightened Tutor.

I've been cutting down the creatures to the bare minimum of 4 Stoneforge Mystics and 4 Snapcaster Mage while playing 1-2 Enlightened Tutor, a Humility and a Engineered Explosives in the main.

So far, I'm very happy with this configuration, as turn 2 mystic into turn 3 batterskull + tutor into turn 4 humility is one of the few ways to completely dominated the Maverick matchup. Additionally, the Enlightened Tutors gives you the opportunity to run a silver bullet sideboard.

Has anyone else tested Humility/Enlightened Tutor in blade control and/or has any thoughts on this?

[Stan]

The problem with Geist vs Crusader is that if you don't have an equipment and the other guy's board isn't empty, a Crusader can still charge in more often than not. Just about every viable creature in the format except SFM, Goblin Lackey and Grim Lavamancer can take a Geist down in combat.

[Maëlig]

My most recent try to improve those matchups without giving up to much in the others involves Humility with Enlightened Tutor.

I'm with you on this, enlightened tutor is great in those difficult MU, and in general. I play cursed totem instead of humility though, and in the SB. It's almost as good against maverick, while it still gives you the full advantage of your SFM (except for cheating batterskull into play) and snapcasters.
If you want additional MD targets, crucible, oblivion ring and shackles are good too. My current silver bullets in the SB are cage, canonist and ensnaring bridge, what are yours?

[Koby]

Mirran Crusader is pretty awesome... against BUG.

Against everything else he literally eats every commonly played 1cc removal. Neat :\

[Vandalize]

Mirran Crusader is pretty awesome... against BUG.

Against everything else he literally eats every commonly played 1cc removal. Neat :\

Agreed. He's best suited in a deck who can protect him good. And by that I mean CounterTop or Mother of Runes.

Geist is a better option for Stoneblade, imo.

[Hanni]

I still think Clique is better than Geist. Both are horrible on defense, and Geist is only better on offense on a clean board or with an equipment attached, whereas Clique has flying and a relevant disruptive ability.

[Slime]

My current silver bullets in the SB are cage, canonist and ensnaring bridge, what are yours?

I'm playing Tormod's Crypt (Academy Ruins in the main), Canonist, Energy Flux and Seal of Cleansing in the board.

Are there any enlightened-tutorable bullets against control decks? (Stoneblade, BUG Landstill)?

[ivanpei]

I still think Clique is better than Geist. Both are horrible on defense, and Geist is only better on offense on a clean board or with an equipment attached, whereas Clique has flying and a relevant disruptive ability.

I agree, I'm not sure why you want a hyper aggressive creature in a control deck. Also, the deck is already light on disruption as it is. No point weakening the pre board combo MU to have a slight improvement VS control (which is debatable because clique is arguably equal to Geist in the control mirror).

[klaus]

Here's my current UWR version, if anyone cares:

4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Geist

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
(38)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island
3 Wasteland
(23)

SB:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 meta slots
-

Please let me know what you think are the most debatable choices and why.

[Mantis]

Hi everyone,

I've been having lots of trouble in the past beating Maverick and Death & Taxes with blade control. My most recent try to improve those matchups without giving up to much in the others involves Humility with Enlightened Tutor.

I've been cutting down the creatures to the bare minimum of 4 Stoneforge Mystics and 4 Snapcaster Mage while playing 1-2 Enlightened Tutor, a Humility and a Engineered Explosives in the main.

So far, I'm very happy with this configuration, as turn 2 mystic into turn 3 batterskull + tutor into turn 4 humility is one of the few ways to completely dominated the Maverick matchup. Additionally, the Enlightened Tutors gives you the opportunity to run a silver bullet sideboard.

Has anyone else tested Humility/Enlightened Tutor in blade control and/or has any thoughts on this?
Very clever, so Batterskull will become 5/5 and the token will stay on the board even if Batterskull becomes unattached. Sweet interaction.

[RogueMTG]

Here's my current UWR version, if anyone cares:

...<list was here>...
-

Please let me know what you think are the most debatable choices and why.

Well there are a few small things that stick out to me...

For UWR I don't like the basic Mountain unless you're running Grim Lavamancer and are going to need red every turn. It's probably better as a Plateau or another Plains (for your WoG/Elspeth)

I've never liked 4 Jace, it makes you pretty heavy on the 4 drops and sometimes he just doesn't get there. I've been really happy with a 2 Jace/1 Elsepth, or a 2/2 split.

This also lets you get a slot or two for an additional Geist, SFM, or V.Clique.

Any particular reason for SoFaI over Umezawa's Jitte? If you're looking to suit up Geist and beat through ground dudes I think Feast and Famine is often better for that. Jitte will be a lot easier to trigger than SoFaI unless you run some more fliers than just the two Clique.

Love the EE and hard Counterspells.

[MadMaximus]

So, I'm gonna start...

1. I wouldn't play four Jaces, in the early game he always gets pitched to force of will and later on, when you landed your jace, the second one rather should be a removal-spell or counter, imo
2. The Split between Geist and Clique is just fine, personally I only run 2 Cliques, additionally, I think the mana-hungry spells are a bit too many in your list...
3. Cutting on Stoneforge is a thing I also did and it works out
4. The Countersuite is a bit light, but adding a Counterspell is not the optimal choice given that manabase and 4 Spell Snares are not really needed
5. The removal suite is wonderful, one Path won't be drawn normally before the late game, where he shines and the lightning bolts give you a high amount of flexibility with snapcaster

As you see, I do agree on nearly all of your choices for this controllish UWR-build.

[klaus]

Thanks for your feedback guys.
You might be right about that Mountain - I guess I'll replace it with the 4th Tundra for a while and see whether I miss it.

So Jace #4 could be anything basically. I'm pretty sure Clique #3 would be my personal choice as well.

[Stan]

Are 4 plow effects enough for a W0G-less list? I also run 2 PtE, along with 3 SCM, and those PtE seldom are dead draws.

[anwei]

I'm playing Tormod's Crypt (Academy Ruins in the main), Canonist, Energy Flux and Seal of Cleansing in the board.

Are there any enlightened-tutorable bullets against control decks? (Stoneblade, BUG Landstill)?

Not "Silver Bullets" as you might intend it, but SDT and Crucible both provide so much long-game value that they might be worth considering if you're already running the ETs (which I'm not sure is the best).

[Koby]

Many lists ran 1 Crucible in the sideboard even without the Enlightened Tutor. it has been really good in games that tend to go long. Seems like a natural addition to SB that do have the Tutor package.

[Maëlig]

I'm playing Tormod's Crypt (Academy Ruins in the main), Canonist, Energy Flux and Seal of Cleansing in the board.

Are there any enlightened-tutorable bullets against control decks? (Stoneblade, BUG Landstill)?

Energy flux seems a bit narrow, considering that affinity and stax decks (if you even manage to resolve tutor) see little play. Seal of cleansing is decent if you don't play oblivion ring MD (which you should, imo).



Are there any enlightened-tutorable bullets against control decks? (Stoneblade, BUG Landstill)?
Tutor is inherently a poor strategy in these MU due to the CD it generates and the fact that your opponent is likely to have an answer to whatever you're gonna get (if only in the form of counters). Crucible is pretty decent as was mentionned, and B2B could surprise a BUG control player so it's worth a try (they typically run 0 basics).


Not "Silver Bullets" as you might intend it, but SDT and Crucible both provide so much long-game value that they might be worth considering if you're already running the ETs (which I'm not sure is the best).
Imo, if you really want those in your 75 (which seems perfectly reasonable), they should be MD. It will save you SB space for real hate cards.

[matunos]

Very clever, so Batterskull will become 5/5 and the token will stay on the board even if Batterskull becomes unattached. Sweet interaction.

I don't like the whole 'tap out turns 2-4 getting your business out' plan. One peice of removal here upsets your whole stategy; meanwhile you're letting your opponent develop with no interaction (no removal, no counters), hoping that T4 Humility will work out for you.

Then, once Humilty is out there, you just neutered the rest of your creatures. Snapcaster, Spellstutters, Geist, Clique, Stoneforge, everything except Mishra's and Mutavaults (and your Germ). You're really resting your entire strategy on that early Batterskull.

Humility is a great card in decks designed to abuse it. I really don't think Stoneblade is one of them. And I don't think trying to be hyper-aggressive is the correct strategy against Maverick.

[matunos]

Are 4 plow effects enough for a W0G-less list? I also run 2 PtE, along with 3 SCM, and those PtE seldom are dead draws.

I'm a big fan of Engineered Explosives. I run 2 MD, and 2 Wraths in the side.

[klaus]

I'm a big fan of Engineered Explosives. I run 2 MD, and 2 Wraths in the side.

I'm a fan of EE myself - for the straight UW version I'd replace it with spot removal / Ponder however. The third color is crucial to make this card worth its money.

[Anusien]

I ran my list yesterday with only 4 Stoneforge 2 Vendilion Clique as guys. I cut the second piece of equipment. While there were lots of times I got to go "Stoneforge Mystic, no search, go.", I didn't lose any games for lack of a second piece of equipment, nor did my first piece of equipment ever get blown up.

[klaus]

I ran my list yesterday with only 4 Stoneforge 2 Vendilion Clique as guys. I cut the second piece of equipment. While there were lots of times I got to go "Stoneforge Mystic, no search, go.", I didn't lose any games for lack of a second piece of equipment, nor did my first piece of equipment ever get blown up.

I can't see why you'd ever cut Snapcaster Mage.
Sure it's debatable whether 3 or 4 is the correct number.. There's no doubt he's become a core spell in many blue decks and Stoneblade is his perfect fit imo.

It'd be helpful to get a better understanding of your reasoning if you posted your list.
Would appreciate it.
Cheers,
Klaus

[Anusien]

Counterbalance/Top is a much less conditional source of late-game advantage than Snapcaster Mage, and better in the mirror.

[Dzra]

I'm thinking of running EE in either the MD or the SB (mainly to deal with 1 drops like Nimble Mongoose and Mother of Runes). However, I'm considering dropping a basic Island for like an Underground. I don't want to splash and I'm not interested in supporting a third color. The advantage being that I can fetch into 3 colors for EE if I need to, but the downside is that my mana base just got weaker. There's really not that many problem three drops in the format right now other than KotR and Liliana, but Legacy is a wide format and it might have its uses. Worth the downside?

Also, I think I've ultimately decided that it isn't worth it, but I was looking at Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (or Mother of Runes) as a possible way to protect Stoneforge (and equipment holders). It seems like everyone is gunning for SFM and she's losing some of her edge. It might just be that Spell Pierce is all around more useful.

Another card I've been looking at again is Spellstutter Sprite. I was one of the first to drop Spellstutter after the MM age, but now that one drops have finally re-established themselves in the format, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a couple. The biggest problem (and the same problem I've always had with them) is that they are tempo negative. One drops like to get played on turn 1, Spellstutter can't come down until your turn 2. You can hit their topdecked one drops sure, but it still doesn't help your early game. Still though, Mongeese like to come down once threshold is hit...

Another thought I had was that I'm not convinced Vendilion Clique is as much the powerhouse that it once was. Looking at recent top 16's, the biggest reason I'd see for keeping them MD is the prevalence of Stoneforge. They tap SFM, cast Clique, and profit. However, it might be better to add more early game help so that we can reach our planeswalkers and a three drop sure isn't going to help against linear aggro and tempo plans. And then, assuming Clique is no longer worth the MD slot, is it then worth the SB slot? I'd be inclined to think so, but perhaps there are better bullets out there.

One last thing... Riptide Laboratory. Useful? I love it for it's cool factor, but realistically I think I can count the number of games I've used it on one hand. It might simply be better to shore up your colored sources or even run a miser Academy Ruins for either EE or equipment.

[jdsnider]

I totally agree with your sentiments on riptide lab. It's good on occasion, but postboard when you can rebuy crucible, crypt, EE, and equipment Academy Ruins might be the correct call. Being able to use riptide lab is good, but ridiculously mana intensive.

[matunos]

I'm thinking of running EE in either the MD or the SB (mainly to deal with 1 drops like Nimble Mongoose and Mother of Runes). However, I'm considering dropping a basic Island for like an Underground. I don't want to splash and I'm not interested in supporting a third color. The advantage being that I can fetch into 3 colors for EE if I need to, but the downside is that my mana base just got weaker. There's really not that many problem three drops in the format right now other than KotR and Liliana, but Legacy is a wide format and it might have its uses. Worth the downside?

Also, I think I've ultimately decided that it isn't worth it, but I was looking at Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (or Mother of Runes) as a possible way to protect Stoneforge (and equipment holders). It seems like everyone is gunning for SFM and she's losing some of her edge. It might just be that Spell Pierce is all around more useful.

Another card I've been looking at again is Spellstutter Sprite. I was one of the first to drop Spellstutter after the MM age, but now that one drops have finally re-established themselves in the format, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up a couple. The biggest problem (and the same problem I've always had with them) is that they are tempo negative. One drops like to get played on turn 1, Spellstutter can't come down until your turn 2. You can hit their topdecked one drops sure, but it still doesn't help your early game. Still though, Mongeese like to come down once threshold is hit...

Another thought I had was that I'm not convinced Vendilion Clique is as much the powerhouse that it once was. Looking at recent top 16's, the biggest reason I'd see for keeping them MD is the prevalence of Stoneforge. They tap SFM, cast Clique, and profit. However, it might be better to add more early game help so that we can reach our planeswalkers and a three drop sure isn't going to help against linear aggro and tempo plans. And then, assuming Clique is no longer worth the MD slot, is it then worth the SB slot? I'd be inclined to think so, but perhaps there are better bullets out there.

One last thing... Riptide Laboratory. Useful? I love it for it's cool factor, but realistically I think I can count the number of games I've used it on one hand. It might simply be better to shore up your colored sources or even run a miser Academy Ruins for either EE or equipment.

I like EE for the same reason you mention: it can wipe out those cheap 1-2 drops (and the occasional 3 drop). I took them out when I took out the red splash, but I think that may have been a mistake even without the splash, given all the Mongooses and Delvers and whatnot out there. Anyway, I'm back on the red splash myself. And I have found more value from Academy Ruins (mostly from recycling EE) than I ever got with Riptide. (I also run Karakas, so I can cheaply bounce Geist/Clique, or opposing legends.)

If you're going to splash for the EE, though, I wouldn't recommend black. You can throw a Volcanic in and give yourself access to REB/Pyroblast in the board (even if you go without bolts/etc. in the main), or if you add a Tropical you can utilize Krosan Grip. Then again, I suppose with black you have Vindicate available.

I moved Vendilion to my SB, as I just wasn't getting the value that I wanted out of him in random matchups like I am with Geist, and I wanted to fit my EE back in. I don't know about the mirror; I still think Geist is preferable there. I think Vendilion can be of value against certain combo decks though, where all Geist provides there is a clock, and you can usually cheat out a Batterskull without worrying about removal (as long as you have enough mana left to counter/disrupt the combo, of course).

I've thought about Kira as well, having had so much trouble facing it in Merfolk. The downside is that it also hinders your ability to equip; though I suppose you can just equip twice (during which your target will be vulnerable). It's also somewhat limited... if you're running Geist, he has hexproof anyway, and other than him, most of your other creatures are expendable. Between Geist's immunity and your counters, I'm not sure Kira adds all that much in the long run.

[Shimi]

I'm thinking of running EE in either the MD or the SB (mainly to deal with 1 drops like Nimble Mongoose and Mother of Runes). However, I'm considering dropping a basic Island for like an Underground. I don't want to splash and I'm not interested in supporting a third color. The advantage being that I can fetch into 3 colors for EE if I need to, but the downside is that my mana base just got weaker. There's really not that many problem three drops in the format right now other than KotR and Liliana, but Legacy is a wide format and it might have its uses. Worth the downside?

...

One last thing... Riptide Laboratory. Useful? I love it for it's cool factor, but realistically I think I can count the number of games I've used it on one hand. It might simply be better to shore up your colored sources or even run a miser Academy Ruins for either EE or equipment.

EE is awsome, blows mothers and goose, also takes care of jitte/SoXX/Geist, I was playing 1 U.Sea and it was never a problem.
On Riptide I just think it is win more.. cut mine months ago.

[Dzra]

Oh yeah, I always forget Kira messes up your own equipment. Mother of Runes is still somewhat of an option, but it's uses are limited to protecting SFM or clearing the way for Geist.

As far as EE, I chose Underground Sea because I didn't think one Volcanic was enough to support REB. The Black is marginally useful at least if I ever want to cast a mid-late game Surgical without the two life.

Do most people still run Wraths with EE? I think my current configuration is going to be 1 EE MD, 1 EE SB, 1 Wrath SB. EE hopefully clears out the resilient 1 drops and Swords/Path finishes everything else, but I still have a miser Wrath if I'm overrun.

As far as Geist vs Clique... I definitely prefer Clique. I think the flying body alone is relevant against more decks. Not to mention that it can 1-for-1 Mongoose. My thinking though is that neither might be that impressive MD. I'm running 3 Jace and 2 Elspeth and I think planeswalkers in general provide a better wincon.

At 3 cmc, Geist and Clique both occupy that awkward space where they are too slow to be protection, but not quite the power level of a consistent finisher. I may be wrong, and maybe some sort of pressure is just required at the 3 drop area, but more planeswalkers and more counters/removal seems like a stronger plan to me. If there were a strong W or U planewalker at 3 cmc... holy shit.

Also, I'm having trouble deciding when to side in SoFI/Jitte. SoFI would be great against RUG and they both are great against decks with Mother of Runes (although Jitte probably is better there). The problem is that I don't much want to go up to 3 equipment, even post-board, and both of those decks run big green dudes. Maybe against RUG, I can point my Plows at Goyf and rest assured that SoFI can handle everything else, but against Maverick, I can't imagine siding out my pro-Green sword.

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey guys so I have my monthly legacy event coming up this Sunday. This is my current list. Thoughts?

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Preordain
1 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vendilion Clique

Thoughts?

[raptorcardz]

I don't understand how you guys can have such a bad concensus about Dark Confidant.

First of all... he doesn't kill you... never. If you ever played confidant you would know that dark confidant almost never survive more than 2 turns, cause the opponent always spend everything he has on it.

He knows that if you draw 2 cards a turn... he will lose.

Someone can arge that I have 4 FOW + 1 Batterskull + 3 Jaces... That's to much...but in reality... they are 8 cards that hit me if revealed by bob... while I have other 50 cards that would hit 2 or less, beeing 22 lands, having brainstorm and ponder...

There is absolutily no way you can die for your own bob, except gainst a monored burn (still it can be your salvation anyways)

People chose Vendillion Clique over confidant o.o... Why is that? Actualy, is not cuz Clique hits 3, or can trade cards from opponent hand.. its because it allows me to not tap out...

Thats what Koplinchen said "why would we wanna tap out early".... That's realy a wrong perspective... I want/must tap out... the deck has no card that would give me control for not taping stuff... (the exception might be the spell snare, only 2 for maximize snapcaster value)

Can't you guys see the diference? Is not a Standstill type of control.. a draw-go blade variante as UW. It runs very diferently... If understanding this concept still has something to add, I would be very glad to hear.

Edgar Flores's Build
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42131

My New Build:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Moorland Haunt
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


------------

I added more basics, as I realy thought thats a correct change... I cutted spell snares and one snapcaster for one more ponder and 2 geists (as I complained before, I wanted a finisher creature)

I think maybe I could use 22 lands and 4 ponders, for adding consistency, mainteining the 4 fow md while improving the consistence of the deck.

Still maybe 4 bs and 4 ponder is to much... So i keeped 23 lands... what u guys think?

(Sorry about my english)

I've been killed by my own Dark Confidant where my opponent didn't do a single point of damage to me. I remember two Force of Will reveals and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor or two followed by two mana drop spell. Ugh. I'll take snapcaster for instant value.

[Dzra]

I did really well at a local tournament yesterday. For the most part, I didn't miss the Cliques MD. I'm not sure if Spell Pierce is right for those two open slots, but it got there enough.

I'm also not sold on SoFI (or any third equipment for that matter) in the SB. I can rarely side out SoFF and even against control and non-green decks, it's debatable whether SoFI is better enough to take up a SB slot.

I'm also still up in the air about adding a one-of Volcanic/Trop/Underground. I ran straight UW and the only time I wanted to EE for more than cmc1 was when I wanted to hit cmc4 for Jace. Hitting cmc3 can still be useful in theory, but I'm just not sure it's worth the inconsistency. Perhaps in place of the 4th Mishra's? Putting my colorless down to 6 lands, while adding the slight splash at the same time. Mishra's Factory is just so good on the defense, especially against Mongoose. On the other hand, I lost one match due to a mull to 5 in game 1. It happens... but double Factory the first hand and one Plains the second hand would be quite a bit more unlikely with only three Mishra's.

[Dzra]

Also, right now I'm running 1 EE MD and 1 in the SB, although with 1 Wrath in the SB. How necessary does everyone think that 2nd Wrath in the board is? I do have the EE... but then again, a reset button VS Maverick is always welcome.

[klaus]

Also, right now I'm running 1 EE MD and 1 in the SB, although with 1 Wrath in the SB. How necessary does everyone think that 2nd Wrath in the board is? I do have the EE... but then again, a reset button VS Maverick is always welcome.

Despite the obvious Swarm Aggro MU, that 2nd Wrath is a crucial means to fight Thruns. I'd never go below 2.

Cutting those Cliques might be feasible if your meta lacks Combo & Control otherwise keeping them in is a good idea.

[Malakai]

Sword of Body and Mind seems pretty good against Thrun.

[matunos]

Sword of Body and Mind seems pretty good against Thrun.

SoFF can handle Thrun just fine. Batterskull can out-race him, as can Geist (if the field is otherwise clear).

[matunos]

I did really well at a local tournament yesterday. For the most part, I didn't miss the Cliques MD. I'm not sure if Spell Pierce is right for those two open slots, but it got there enough.

I'm also not sold on SoFI (or any third equipment for that matter) in the SB. I can rarely side out SoFF and even against control and non-green decks, it's debatable whether SoFI is better enough to take up a SB slot.


I like Jitte in theory, but with Geists I've found it to be too difficult to get started.

I don't think of the Pro:blue of SoFI as very relevant against opposing Jaces. Why? A couple of reasons:

1. The only decks running Jace are control decks, who typically aren't also running burn (except for the mirror with the red splash, and that's only 2-3 spells) or a lot of creatures. Being able to untap and force them to discard are more useful, IMO. Maybe Thopters is an exception here... I haven't faced that deck yet.
2. Most of our creatures have benefits when they come into play (not to mention flash), so having them bounced could actually be an advantage to you, and it reduces Jace's loyalty.

If Jace is bouncing our creatures, it's generally in desperation while the opponent is hoping to topdeck another Swords or Snapcaster. If anyone's Jace is bouncing our creatures, it might just be our own.

[Samara]

I've been killed by my own Dark Confidant where my opponent didn't do a single point of damage to me. I remember two Force of Will reveals and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor or two followed by two mana drop spell. Ugh. I'll take snapcaster for instant value.

Horrible argument. What's the odds?

If you don't wanna run confidant, at least say something consistent about it

A example would be: "he will probabily be bolted/plowed EOT" (That's why people might not want to run confidant)

Bob is still a 2 CMC card that gives you 2 cards a turn, a creature that alone gives the opponent the felling that he is losing the game.

Snapcaster gives instant value. That's great, I run both. And 2 Unearth. :smile:

[Samara]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats

3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland

2 Mishra's Factory
1 Moorland Haunt

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

The only observation is the 4 IofK instead of a 2-2 Split. I'm still considering it, Running 4 IofK have some merits, I can Snapback without taking life (again). Probabily when this "bolt+delver" decks stop seeing so much play, I will go for a 2-2 with toughtsieze;

[matunos]

Horrible argument. What's the odds?

If you don't wanna run confidant, at least say something consistent about it

A example would be: "he will probabily be bolted/plowed EOT" (That's why people might not want to run confidant)

Bob is still a 2 CMC card that gives you 2 cards a turn, a creature that alone gives the opponent the felling that he is losing the game.

Snapcaster gives instant value. That's great, I run both. And 2 Unearth. :smile:

You previously said "he doesn't kill you... never" and raptorcardz offered am anecdote of one time where Bob killed him. Seems like a sound rebuttal to me. He didn't say he often kills you, but you did emphatically say that he never kills you...

Seems like with 4 planeswalkers, 3-4 FoW, a Batterskull and 2-3 3 drops, plus our early game vulnerabilities, you'd want some Tops to help avoid any sticky situations.

[matunos]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats

3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland

2 Mishra's Factory
1 Moorland Haunt

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

The only observation is the 4 IofK instead of a 2-2 Split. I'm still considering it, Running 4 IofK have some merits, I can Snapback without taking life (again). Probabily when this "bolt+delver" decks stop seeing so much play, I will go for a 2-2 with toughtsieze;

IMO, 4 Ponder is 4 too many. You don't have a Goyf to feed.

[klaus]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp


I can see this deck work in a super control-heavy field.
Against most aggro strategies this list looks like it will simply roll over and die though.
-

EDIT:
Here's a Confidant-friendly version of the top of my head:

> 4 Snapcaster Mage
> 4 Dark Confidant
> 4 Stoneforge Mystic
> 3 Vendilion Clique

> 4 Brainstorm

> 4 Swords To Plowshares
> 2 Ghastly Demise
> 1 Path to Exile

> 4 Spell Snare
> 2 Vindicate
> 4 Inquisition of Kozilek

> 1 Umezawa's Jitte
> 1 Basilisk Collar

> 38 <

> 4 Chrome Mox
> 4 Flooded Strand
> 2 Polluted Delta
> 1 Marsh Flats
> 3 Tundra
> 3 Underground Sea
> 1 Island
> 1 Plains
> 1 Swamp
> 3 Wasteland

> 23<

SB:
> 1 Enlightened Tutor (mini toolbox)
> 1 Tormod's Crypt
> 2 Engineered Plague
> 1 Ethersworn Canonist
> 1 Seal of Cleansing
> 4 Force of Will
> 1 Disenchant
> 3 Extirpate
> 1 Path to Exile

[Samara]

Running 4 Ponder, makes my blue count right, makes top needless, makes the deck as a whole more consistent, helps me to find the "only 2" jaces in control matches, helps me find the "only 4+SCM" removals against aggro. (same about discart or everything)

Think is this way: When you have a top in board, you would activate it every turn? Then you want to ponder every turn.

And, I said Confidant + 4 brainstorm + 4 ponder never kills you (while still arguable that you have 0,1% of chance of being killed by your own bob). Not confidant alone.

[preddi]

Hey what's the general opinion of saving grasp? Seems like a good card in a deck with stoneforge, snapcaster and vendilion clique. I've been looking for a good way to protect the stoneforge mystic since mm got banned. Is this card worth 2 or so slots?

[klaus]

Hey what's the general opinion of saving grasp? Seems like a good card in a deck with stoneforge, snapcaster and vendilion clique. I've been looking for a good way to protect the stoneforge mystic since mm got banned. Is this card worth 2 or so slots?

I don't think so.

[Koby]

Hey what's the general opinion of saving grasp? Seems like a good card in a deck with stoneforge, snapcaster and vendilion clique. I've been looking for a good way to protect the stoneforge mystic since mm got banned. Is this card worth 2 or so slots?

Curfew seems much better while also buying tempo against your opponent.

[Anusien]

Doesn't Spell Pierce do this much better? Or Rebuff the Wicked?

[TkDodo]

I've been killed by my own Dark Confidant where my opponent didn't do a single point of damage to me. I remember two Force of Will reveals and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor or two followed by two mana drop spell. Ugh. I'll take snapcaster for instant value.

Hm, after you flip double force plus jace to your bob, you just resolve jace and jacestorm each turn putting a land back, so I can't see you dying ever after flipping double force plus jace ?!

[matunos]

Hm, after you flip double force plus jace to your bob, you just resolve jace and jacestorm each turn putting a land back, so I can't see you dying ever after flipping double force plus jace ?!

Maybe (assuming you get the Jace out), but you've still lost 14 life on your own. Still seems like a bad beat.

[bruizar]

Curfew seems much better while also buying tempo against your opponent.

Depends on if you run Gilded Drake.

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Dark_Ascension/Saving_Grasp_TMP.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Innistrad/_Snapcatcher_Mage_83058.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Urzas_Saga/Gilded_Drake.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Morningtide/Vendilion_Clique.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Worldwake/Stoneforge_Mystic.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/M11/Squadron_Hawk.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Lorwyn/Spellstutter_Sprite.jpg

[klaus]

Haha - I like that Guilded Drake trick.
-

Also, Blink would also be an option - initial testing was rather disappointing though

[matunos]

Spells that don't really do anything except pseudo-protect your SFM via bounce and aren't free seem pretty limited to me. It doesn't really speed you up much (you still can't cast her T2 if you want to protect her), and you'll have to recast her and wait another turn. It might be nice if you want to collect more equipment in your hand, but overall it just seems unnecessary. And good 'ole fashioned Unsummon seems more versatile anyway. The Gilded Drake/Saving Grasp trick is cute, but I think I'd rather draw into a StP.

Spell Pierce (and even Spellstutter) is much more versatile, IMO, if you find yourself with the slots available. I don't.

[bruizar]

Spells that don't really do anything except pseudo-protect your SFM via bounce and aren't free seem pretty limited to me.
Perhaps you didn't see the other cards I mentioned.



The Gilded Drake/Saving Grasp trick is cute, but I think I'd rather draw into a StP.

I'd rather steal a goyf than plow it. Gives me a wincondition + a blocker opposed to giving my opponent 5 life.



Spell Pierce (and even Spellstutter) is much more versatile, IMO, if you find yourself with the slots available. I don't.

Spellstutter+Saving Grasp almost works like Snapcaster on a Mental Misstep in vintage.


Ofcourse you don't run Saving Grasp ONLY for SFM. In fact, of the cards I mentioned, SFM is probably the least powerful card to cast Saving Grasp on. Cliqueing 3 turns in a row during your opponent's draw step pretty much ensures control over what your opponent is going to cast, while you push through 9 damage. That's pretty damn significant in my book. Recasting Snapcaster on Brainstorm several times should be pretty good too. Fogging a knight of the reliquary by blocking it and bouncing your creature might not be the sexiest play, but it could be a life saver.

I could see a deck where the density of creatures that interact with Saving Grasp is high enough to warrant its inclusion.

[klaus]

Spells that don't really do anything except pseudo-protect your SFM via bounce and aren't free seem pretty limited to me. It doesn't really speed you up much (you still can't cast her T2 if you want to protect her), and you'll have to recast her and wait another turn. It might be nice if you want to collect more equipment in your hand, but overall it just seems unnecessary. And good 'ole fashioned Unsummon seems more versatile anyway. The Gilded Drake/Saving Grasp trick is cute, but I think I'd rather draw into a StP.

Spell Pierce (and even Spellstutter) is much more versatile, IMO, if you find yourself with the slots available. I don't.

+1

[preddi]

Ofcourse you don't run Saving Grasp ONLY for SFM. In fact, of the cards I mentioned, SFM is probably the least powerful card to cast Saving Grasp on. Cliqueing 3 turns in a row during your opponent's draw step pretty much ensures control over what your opponent is going to cast, while you push through 9 damage. That's pretty damn significant in my book. Recasting Snapcaster on Brainstorm several times should be pretty good too. Fogging a knight of the reliquary by blocking it and bouncing your creature might not be the sexiest play, but it could be a life saver.

I agree with this. Saving grasp on Snapcaster and clique seems great to me. But the question is, are other cards more powerful than this interaction, which is most likely the case. I still think it is always worth considering options before discarding them on the spot.
The point that someone would rather draw a Stp than Saving grasp is not a point at all, because you run 4 stp in both lists anyway.

I saw a list with Vial, Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Clique and Spellstutter Sprite with 2 Saving grasp. It looked interesting to me, because i love cool interactions like this.

Another reason i brought this up is that i think this deck needs more card advantage. I think this deck looses too many games because it lacks card advantage. Sure there are Snapcaster, Stoneforge and Jace, but other decks (like Rug) play up to 7 fewer lands than this deck, which leads to games where you draw land after land and they keep drawing threats.

How are you dealing with this?

[klaus]

Another reason i brought this up is that i think this deck needs more card advantage. I think this deck looses too many games because it lacks card advantage. Sure there are Snapcaster, Stoneforge and Jace, but other decks (like Rug) play up to 7 fewer lands than this deck, which leads to games where you draw land after land and they keep drawing threats.

Stoneblade boasts more CA/CQ than 90% of the decks out there...

[bruizar]

What I'm saying is, if you're running 16 / 20 creatures, you're keeping a pretty shitty hand if you have no targets for the 1/2 saving grasps in your deck. The fact that saving grasp has flashback means that it becomes CA. Being able to control magic for 1U is really good. Your opponent isn't going to plow the gilded drake (he controls it), and if he's spending it to get rid of his own creature, well, that's fine too. The only thing he could do is plow your target in response to saving grasp, to which you can respond by flashing it back (is this correct?), essentially countering the removal spell.

You could play riptide laboratory and forget about gilded drake, but its much more mana intensive. You can only really do that once you've made it to the late game. It may or may not be good enough but I doubt anyone here has any test results to back up their claims.

[matunos]

What I'm saying is, if you're running 16 / 20 creatures, you're keeping a pretty shitty hand if you have no targets for the 1/2 saving grasps in your deck. The fact that saving grasp has flashback means that it becomes CA. Being able to control magic for 1U is really good. Your opponent isn't going to plow the gilded drake (he controls it), and if he's spending it to get rid of his own creature, well, that's fine too. The only thing he could do is plow your target in response to saving grasp, to which you can respond by flashing it back (is this correct?), essentially countering the removal spell.

You could play riptide laboratory and forget about gilded drake, but its much more mana intensive. You can only really do that once you've made it to the late game. It may or may not be good enough but I doubt anyone here has any test results to back up their claims.

Stoneblade doesn't usually run 16-20 creatures. I'm skeptical that we have the room for 16, much less 20. (And you can't fully count the Gilded Drake, because they're only as good as your opponent's creatures.)

I don't doubt that Gilded Drake and Saving Grasp is a neat trick. I just don't think it's something you can rely on and thus something worth the slots. As someone else here argued, what do you drop to make room for it? The hard part about Magic is not finding good cards, it's figuring out which good cards to keep in your deck.

You're right though that there aren't test results to draw a definitive conclusion. I encourage those who think they're good additions to try them out and gather the evidence.

[matunos]

I agree with this. Saving grasp on Snapcaster and clique seems great to me. But the question is, are other cards more powerful than this interaction, which is most likely the case. I still think it is always worth considering options before discarding them on the spot.
The point that someone would rather draw a Stp than Saving grasp is not a point at all, because you run 4 stp in both lists anyway.

I saw a list with Vial, Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Clique and Spellstutter Sprite with 2 Saving grasp. It looked interesting to me, because i love cool interactions like this.

Another reason i brought this up is that i think this deck needs more card advantage. I think this deck looses too many games because it lacks card advantage. Sure there are Snapcaster, Stoneforge and Jace, but other decks (like Rug) play up to 7 fewer lands than this deck, which leads to games where you draw land after land and they keep drawing threats.

How are you dealing with this?

You named it: Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Jace, with some help from Brainstorm of course.

Snapcaster multiplies your removal (I won't say it multiplies it by 4, because everyone starts saying that they have an additional 4 of of every instant in their deck, but that's only close to true if you're continually bouncing Snapcater).

Stoneforge tutors for your equipment, which, whether it's a Batterskull or a Sword/Jitte, once out, is usually enough to equalize whatever a tempo-strategy has put on the field. Obviously it's easier said than done when your SFM is bolted and you don't have a body for your Sword/Jitte even if you hardcast it. Nobody said playing control was easy. You have to decide what is best to tutor for at a given time, and whether you can get it out and make it stick. Figure that out, and you have the advantage.

Jace doubles your draw, or slows your opponents' roll, or ruins your opponent's card quality; all excellent things. If you can untap with Jace, then you are at a strong advantage to win.

If you need more CA, then Ancestral Vision is an option. I've only seen it in a Spellstutter build that has no Snapcasters, though. If it came down to a choice between Vision and Snapcaster, I'd take the Snapcaster (and I have). Tiago is not only card advantage, but card quality advantage, because you know exactly what you're going to flashback, and he leaves you with a body on the field too. Vision might draw you another Swords, but Tiago knows whether you have a swords (or whatever) already in your yard.

FWIW, I have yet to have serious problems with RUG. I'm not saying they're a walk in the park, but the only removal they run main is Bolt (and Chain Lightning, maybe?). Untap with a Batterskull, and they're usually toast. Get a SoFF (which, btw, also improves your relative card advantage, not to mention tempo) on him and they scoop. Post-board, they're bringing in artifact hate, but you're also bringing in spot removal and sweepers. Engineered Explosives is also excellent against these guys, especially when they over-commit. EE + Academy Ruins is a soft-lock.

I think Zoo is a more challenging matchup because they have StP, Mother of Runes, even better tempo, and oftentimes, Punishing Grove.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

hello all, been reading through the thread pretty heavily recently and have tried to brew up something I plan to play in a small tournament tomorrow... Suggestion would be appreciated.

1 Sorin
1 Elspeth
3 Jace

1 SoFaF
1 BS

4 SCM
4 SFM
2 Clique

3 Vindicate
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Island

sb

1 Jitte
2 Wrath
2 EE
3 Surgical
3 P2E
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

I tested Confidant and found that I had a ton 2 drops and less room for Cliques and the extra Planeswalker... Also this deck has 6 3 drops,'Skull, FoWs and 5 Planeswalkers... I ended up blowing myself up a lot. The argument can be made to play Confidant, play Ponders and less high casting cost spells... I just don't know if that route is better or not yet. I obviously wanted to play Thoughtseize or IoK but, again, I don't have any room, really... Normally they would have the slots the Vindicates are occupying.

I think my biggest ifs are trying x3 SS MD instead of 4 which I've always played. The other big question is testing out Sorin... I think he would be really good in Jace battles, he can defend himself long enough to sweep some games... I don't think its necessarily win more either, since in Blade mirrors Planeswalker wars are pretty real. Do you think I should go down to x2 Vindicate MD for the 4th SS? I really don't want to... but I don't know of only playing x3 SS is a good idea or not... maybe try x1 Counterspell? I don't like one ofs that can't be tutored for or aren't Planeswalkers...

Also... am I being too greedy in playing only 23 lands? I have been goldfishing it a bit and I can usually hit 4 lands on turn 4... but of course i'm just goldfishing and not factoring in Stifle/Wasteland etc... Has anyone tried out 23 lands instead of the usual 24 (sometimes 25). I was also thinking that 1 Crucible MD or in the side would be really nice, because it makes me less vulnerable to Wasteland, gives me value with Fetches and can obviously allow me to mise out certain MUs by constantly Wasting their lands. Right now I'm playing 6 colorless lands, but I really, really wanted to play Academy Ruins to fight through Ancient Grudges and do bad things with EE, do I have to play 25-26 lands for 7-8 colorless be permissible? Obviously I'm playing Jace, CS and Clique (all UU) so maybe it would be awkward too often.

[klaus]

I just added some notes to your list:

1 Sorin
1 Elspeth
3 Jace

1 SoFaF - this choice is very meta dependant - make sure it's the right sword - I suggest Jitte for an open meta
1 BS

4 SCM
4 SFM
2 Clique

3 Vindicate - I like Vindicate, but maybe one of them would be better off as Path to Exile / Ghastly Demise, since your curve is very high already and you'll be using it as creature removal most of the time anyway
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Spell Snare - three is the correct number
2 Counterspell

1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Island
----------------> mana base: overall 9 non-blue sources is 3 too many imo. I'd suggest drop factory and 1 Scrubland and replace them with 1 fetchland, Underground Sea and 1 basic Plains - with these changes you can get away with 23 land easily.


1 Jitte - that's a catch all sword - should be specific hate instead, like SoFaI (against Merfolk and Goblins)
2 Wrath
2 EE --------- this is actually neat MD material in three color versions
3 Surgical - should be 4 (+1)
3 P2E - With to Wrath and an additional creature removal spell in the MD 3 is overkill
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare - not a SB card imo. (-1)
-

[lordofthepit]

I haven't done the testing, but it seems wrong to be splashing black but not including Dark Confidant, even if the curve is a bit high (but not any higher than BUG control).

Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage might see more play, but Dark Confidant is still the best 2-cc creature in Legacy; it just rarely sees play anymore since black is such a bad color right now (except for combo, and even then, combo is a bit weak right now).

[Blitzbold]

I haven't done the testing, but it seems wrong to be splashing black but not including Dark Confidant, even if the curve is a bit high (but not any higher than BUG control).

Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage might see more play, but Dark Confidant is still the best 2-cc creature in Legacy; it just rarely sees play anymore since black is such a bad color right now (except for combo, and even then, combo is a bit weak right now).

Considering Maverick's current strength I rather like black at the moment, especially when it comes to the sideboard. Perish, Virtue's Ruin and Massacre are quite good these days. As I said, I blame it on Maverick. It even brings me to reconsider playing RUG at the moment, and I've been swinging with Nimble Mongeese since 3 or 4 years.

[klaus]

Considering Maverick's current strength I rather like black at the moment, especially when it comes to the sideboard. Perish, Virtue's Ruin and Massacre are quite good these days. As I said, I blame it on Maverick. It even brings me to reconsider playing RUG at the moment, and I've been swinging with Nimble Mongeese since 3 or 4 years.

There you go Snappingbowls - here's your SB:

4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate (why the hell not? :cool:)
2 Perish
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile (1 in the MD)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 EE
1 Disenchant - Choke and friends (has actually become a core card in our SBs - with Vindicate 1 is the correct number imo)

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

@ klaus, thank you for your response, that was very helpful advice. This is a local meta with maybe 2-3 other guys who "play legacy" (i.e. have a collection and make actual legacy decks) then I expect a bunch of scrubby homebrews to round out the tournament. I will reconsider the 2nd equipment slot, I think you may be correct in suggesting Jitte over SoFaF MD. SoFaF is better in the mirror I think and is strong against RUG (you can block goyfs and always have your lands up on their turn)... Again, I don't think I'll be playing a ton of RUG, mirror and Zenith/Explorer though.

I knew the manabase was light on blue, but it seems weird going down to 1 Factory... considering the inherent scrubiness of over half of the expected turn out today, maybe x2 Wasteland is a better meta call? Like I said, maybe 14-16 people playing, with 4-5 including myself, who own/have access to duals... It sounds obvious when I type it out... so maybe -1 Scrub (good advice, 3rd sea seems better) -1 Waste?

Thanks as well for the SB advice, I'm pretty guilty of net-decking the SB and it's wiser to tone down the removal and open up some slots for Disenchant, or I might play Crucible in that spot, and Perishes/Nature's Ruin. Already second guessing that... I think I'll make room for D-Chant and Crucible, Disenchant is never a blank and of course a sweet SCM target. My goal for today is SCM some Vindicates haha...

@ lordofthepit, Nothing seems more wrong, right? I totally agree about how weird it was building this deck sitting at my desk not finding room for Confidants. For everyone here who has played Blade a good bit knows how tight all the lists are (maybe 2-3 flex slots tops) so I really had trouble fitting in Confidants, I was thinking if I did, I would have to go down to one random Clique, like, 1-2 Vindicate and maybe cut Sorin... which I really don't wanna do. I'm gonna steal some Planeswalkers today ;)

What cuts would you make for 2-3 Dark Confidants MD? Also, it's not only finding slots for Bob, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you also need to play some amount of Ponder/SDT to keep from blowing yourself up too much... It just seems like it really cuts into your control core too much when you need almost 5-6 extra slots to support Bob. Plus, as has been discussed earlier, Blade already has massive CA/CQ. Ugh, if you haven't guessed I truly am conflicted as Bob is one of my favourite cards, and obviously really good. For all the above reasons though, he's been hard to play so far.

[Samara]

This is my build... That runs bob as the main CA engine.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

[Stan]

I only run 22 lands (no factories, a single Kor Haven is my only colourless land, and I may ditch it), and I haven't had too much mana problems. I'll admit to pretty much scooping against a wasteland/crucible lock though.

[lordofthepit]

@ lordofthepit, Nothing seems more wrong, right? I totally agree about how weird it was building this deck sitting at my desk not finding room for Confidants. For everyone here who has played Blade a good bit knows how tight all the lists are (maybe 2-3 flex slots tops) so I really had trouble fitting in Confidants, I was thinking if I did, I would have to go down to one random Clique, like, 1-2 Vindicate and maybe cut Sorin... which I really don't wanna do. I'm gonna steal some Planeswalkers today ;)

It really depends on your metagame.

If you're facing Tribal decks all day, then you have to max out your Snapcasters and Stoneforges, obviously. Dark Confidant is solid against them, but it can become a liability if they go off too fast. Vindicate is a bit slow.

If you're facing decks like Zoo which have a lot of removal, I actually don't like Dark Confidant. Not so much because of the lifeloss, but rather, because you'll never be able to stick your creatures. SFM and SCM both provide a benefit just by resolving, even if they die right away, whereas Dark Confidant needs to stay on the board to accrue benefits.

I'd argue that Vindicate is the most likely cut. It's too slow against the aggressive strategies, but against control and combo (i.e. decks without much removal), you'd probably pull further ahead by just resolving a Dark Confidant. It's also so good against something like BUG control which has few ways to remove a black creature. I'd probably pull Sorin to lower the curve and to make room for an extra Bob.

If anyone objects to my opinion, you should probably take their word for it. I don't play a whole lot of Stoneblade personally. I do have the deck built and occasionally use it for testing purposes, and I often run into it at my local game store, but I definitely don't have as much experience from the other side of the table.

[Samara]

I run only 21 lands, but also run 4 ponder, the idea is that 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms allows me to run fewer lands, does this by helping me to get to my 4th land drop, while helping to NOT reach the 7th land drop.

Is a diferent aproach of the blade control, but people still might missunderstand it.

As you can see, I don't run spell snares or spell pierces... that's cuz my plan is each turn, play a land (until 4-5), a threat (and/or removal) and a top manipulation to continue with that plan.

Bob supports that very well. Drawing me 2 cards a turn... ponders only made it even more powerful.

I know this is theorical as I will never cast a ponder/brainstorm each of my turns, BUT having 8 is the way to go.... having fewer lands is another way of gainning CA.

Having 8 top manip helps me to not draw a late-game inquistion, or a early game jace...

helps me to look for removals if needed and look for that precious unearh (unearth>SCM>unearth>bob/sfm+jitte) or jace to finish the game.

It very diferent but if you can realy understand the concept I would love to discuss it and improve it.

You can see it as a "tempo-control" build.

Is something like, "I want a blade deck with a such low curve that can be fast enought to face tempo strategies and survive with fewer lands on the board while still having a strong late-game plan (jace, batterskull, SCM)

+ Bob, Ponder, Fewer Lands
- Cards that want me to hold (Clique, Snare, Pierce)

(Sorry for my english... i'm still learning ^^ )

[Dzra]

What successful SBing strategies have people had against Maverick? I've done some testing against the straight GW list from Drew Levin's article and the MU seems just abysmal. I tried the following plan:

-3 Jace, -4 FoW, -1 CS
+4 PtE, +2 ORings, +1 EE, +1 WoG

I think that I have to find room to keep in the FoWs. I know that the idea is 2for1ing yourself is bad against a deck that is so full of threats, but I think that I simply need the Force (and maybe even the 3rd Spell Pierce) to be able to consistently stop Choke. Sure, we have ORing, but fighting past Choke is just horrendous. I'm also considering adding a Glacial Fortress, so that I have at least a miser chance to have a workable Blue source under Choke.

I'm leaning now towards taking out the SFM package as a way to hunker down on more counterspells and control. This could, however, open me up to their plethora of threats. Without Batterskull, any one of their tiny creatures can pick up exalted and start to become an issue.

Anyways, I'd like to hear what people are trying... if it works, or if it doesn't work, etc... Thanks.

[anwei]

Drew Levin talks about that a bit in the "how to kill everyone with u/w stoneforge" article here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html).

I would not side out Jace, particularly if you do remove the Stoneforge package. Having good board wipes are obviously important, and Jace and/or (hopefully 'and') Elspeth can slip through (though, for PF versions, that means addressing the engine).

So just hit spot removal until you can waste and/or extract Punshing Fire or Grove, wipe the board, and ride the Fateseal + jumping soldiers for the win.

It's not a fun match...

[Maëlig]

Board in the disenchants if you have them, choke and sylvan library are both big problems. I've also had some success with cursed totem (as part of my tutor toolbox), providing I manage to handle choke, equipments (you can't realistically sword everything, even post-board) and PF in a timely fashion. It's still a big IF though, and the MU is difficult.

[Dzra]

I feel inclined to play ORings over Disenchant because it doubles as spot removal. I might run a Disenchant in addition though... What about Spell Pierce? It's dead against a fair amount of Maverick, but it stops Choke and GSZ and can protect a SFM.

[Maëlig]

Tapping out mainphase to remove choke and getting it destroyed by GSZ --> qasali next turn is pretty bad. Also, oblivion ring isn't snapcastable.
Spell pierce is rubish against maverick, you should have better things to board in.

[Dzra]

I agree that a lot of times, removal overall is better to board in... But after SB, GW will have anywhere around 10-12 targets for Spell Pierce (4 GSZ, 1-2 Elspeth, 2-3 Sylvan Libraries, 3 Chokes) not even including them hard casting equipment and Swords to Plowshares. Sure maybe there's better uses for those slots, but being able to drop SFM on turn 3 and leave up Pierce mana to 1-for-1 Choke/GSZ doesn't seem bad.

That is a pretty fair argument against ORing though. My only reservations about Disenchant are its uses outside the Maverick MU. ORing is killer in the mirror or Delver if you believe they might board Sylvan Libraries or even Pox for Liliana.

[MD.Ghost]

Against maverick i board in: 2x Wrath, 2x Engineered Explosives, 1x P.Metamorph, 2x Disenchant

I play UWr so maindeck i have 4 swords and 3 bolts for nasty creatures.

My strategy have enough single and mass removal and answers against choke and equipment. Metamorph is very good vs a resolved thrun troll. With academy ruins, i can reuse metamorph and explosives in a late game.

I sideout most of the counters, because force with 2:1 isnt a good play against mavericks high threat density and against green sun zenit, spell snare lose some power.

[Dzra]

After quite a few more testing sessions against RUG and Maverick, I'm starting to have less and less faith in Spell Pierce. I'm also starting to wonder if we try to be too cute with our mana bases. One of Academy Ruins, Karakas, Riptide Laboratory, etc are all good on paper, but when it comes down to it, pure consistency and resilience to Wasteland wins games. Somewhat on that note... has anyone felt the urge to add the second basic Plains? Against Wasteland decks, I'm starting to wish that I could fetch out double Plains for WoG/Elspeth. It might just be that I need to play tighter and another Blue fetch/basic would be more desirable there instead.

[matunos]

After quite a few more testing sessions against RUG and Maverick, I'm starting to have less and less faith in Spell Pierce. I'm also starting to wonder if we try to be too cute with our mana bases. One of Academy Ruins, Karakas, Riptide Laboratory, etc are all good on paper, but when it comes down to it, pure consistency and resilience to Wasteland wins games. Somewhat on that note... has anyone felt the urge to add the second basic Plains? Against Wasteland decks, I'm starting to wish that I could fetch out double Plains for WoG/Elspeth. It might just be that I need to play tighter and another Blue fetch/basic would be more desirable there instead.

I've never felt bad that I didn't have a second plains. If you keep your early fetches to basics, when you're ready to cast WoG, you will usually have that 2nd white source, and you're not usually trying to cast another WW spell the next turn anyway. Also, once you have a couple of Tundras out, losing one isn't as devastating.

How much utility lands you want to run is up to you. I think land mix is the easiest part to experiment with and find what works for you. I have 1 Academy Ruins because I run2 EE main and I've gotten much more utility from the Academy Ruins than I ever did with Riptide. Wthout the EE, though, I wouldn't include it (I'd probably add another Mishra's).

[Samara]

Esperblade won the gp... using.. 4 lingering souls and 1 intuition...

Very powerful and underestimated or just very well positioned in the gp meta?

[SupREME-10]

I think that deluting the mana base even further is just a little scary. I run Bant-Blade and Azoruis-Blade; but bant has mana fixers like Noble Heirarch, Esper cannot claim the same. I am not putting down the Esper style he used as it is obviously good tech for that event, etc. But it is not my style.

Bant with the Exalted dudes on the other hand, gains on the aggor side. But that (and the Esper) are different stories.

[Koby]

After quite a few more testing sessions against RUG and Maverick, I'm starting to have less and less faith in Spell Pierce. I'm also starting to wonder if we try to be too cute with our mana bases. One of Academy Ruins, Karakas, Riptide Laboratory, etc are all good on paper, but when it comes down to it, pure consistency and resilience to Wasteland wins games. Somewhat on that note... has anyone felt the urge to add the second basic Plains? Against Wasteland decks, I'm starting to wish that I could fetch out double Plains for WoG/Elspeth. It might just be that I need to play tighter and another Blue fetch/basic would be more desirable there instead.

My Stoneblade list has been working with 6 Island 2 Plains 3 Tundras 3 Wasteland 2 Mishras 8 Fetch for months without any significant trouble against Wasteland. I don't run Karakas because it just isn't reliable.

[Dzra]

I've played a number of games with the Esper list against Maverick and RUG. I'm not convinced that it's better than straight UW, but Lingering Souls (and Perish/Zealous Persecution out of the SB) are really strong. Targeted discard definitely also has its merits as the format is adjusting more to Spell Snare and spreading their curve out. Spell Snare feels dumb when they play Mongoose, Moms, GSZ, KotR, etc.

On the flip side, you lose Elspeth and Wrath. Playing a three color deck that likes to hit 4 land drops is dangerous in a Stifle/Wasteland filled meta when you can't Stifle their Wastelands or mana ramp around LD. And then not being able to run Wastelands yourself when a single Maze of Ith can put you out of the game entirely are all risky moves.

[Tefaru]

Has anyone had better luck leaving FOW in for the maverick mu? I plan on testing it today but I think it's needed so you can tap out for wrath/jace/elspeth and not get choked out. Another thought I've come across is the inclusion of celestial colonnade. It fills the same role as glacial fortress but gives us a gun in the mirror, as well as potential goose blocker, though unlikely. I feel like that might be too greedy and me just asking to get blown out by stp though and it doesn't solve the choke problem being a none fetchable one of.

[Dzra]

I'm almost positive that leaving in FoW is correct. I'm still working on a good SB plan, but I think our weakest cards in the MU are Clique and Spell Snare. I keep going back and forth on whether or not SFM is a reliable plan against Maverick, but I've come to the conclusion that Elspeth is great and Jace is only good. Celestial Colonnade is entirely too clunky and I think that 1 Glacial Fortress isn't going to help much, maybe 2-3 Glacials could actually provide some cover though.

[Tefaru]

I agree Clique is only so-so against them, and mystic seems like it's only ok. Jace can either be the bomb like he used to be against clunky midrange decks, or completely uncastable because he'll just die. I think that a consideration we have to make is taking out to many blue cards for our Fow's, and not having enough bodies for our equipment. I can for sure agree that spell snare is our weakest card and only really wants to counter thalia or a pridemage. Ooze is annoying but is by no means as bad for us as the other two.

[Dzra]

Does Linvala, Keeper of Silence seem worth a slot against Maverick style creature decks?

It shuts off almost every relevant card Maverick plays, but then again... WoG is the same cost and slams down twice as hard... Still, I guess something can be said for Linvala staying on the field and having game against the dudes Maverick is most likely sandbagging.

[chuck2657]

Does Linvala, Keeper of Silence seem worth a slot against Maverick style creature decks?

It shuts off almost every relevant card Maverick plays, but then again... WoG is the same cost and slams down twice as hard... Still, I guess something can be said for Linvala staying on the field and having game against the dudes Maverick is most likely sandbagging.

It stops their mana dorks, but at turn 4, their abilities are likely moot.

It stops KOTR, but they are likely 4/4+ anyways...and oozes from growing bigger...but they are likely to be a decent size already.

It stops annoying creature abilities (such as sprite and MoM). This is a valid point, yet WoG still kills all the creatures on the board, and Linvala impedes WoG.

Overall, it feels that the MU needs a finisher from blade-control. Yet, I am not sure linvala fills the role. It doesn't put maverick on a significant clock, and doesn't play a key defensive role (outside a tempo damper).

[Dzra]

I had some success today against Maverick boarding out the SFM package, 1 Jace, and 1 Clique for 2 WoG, 1 EE, 2 Oblivion Rings, and 3 PtE. Although, play fast and know when to scoop game 1 because that strategy will have you running up against time. I'm still somewhat up in the air about ORings VS Disenchant... It's just nice to hit Planeswalkers when you have to, even if you open yourself up to a possible Pridemage later on.

[ivanpei]

Ok, final tune up for the weekend. I strongly believe Jitte should be the 2nd equipment in the MD right now. Since lingering souls is such a bomb and considering how many decks jitte shuts down, jitte should be the go to 2nd equipment. Thoughts?

Jitte used to be terrible against control, but now that control (esperblade) is dependant on 1/1 fliers, jitte seems like the equipment to win this matchup. Legend ruling the opponent's jitte also seems all important against esper blade. Lingering souls is much weaker without a jitte buffing the 1/1s.

[Dzra]

I've thought about it... the reason I hesitate to put Jitte MD is that we don't have all the fliers of Esperblade. Put a Jitte on a flier and go to town. Put a Jitte on a Snapcaster or Mishra's Factory and you're trading creatures for Jitte counters. That's fair in some cases, but UW has so few dudes that it seems better to suit up with Pro-Green and just get in there. Against the Esper builds, it just seems like a matter of bringing in some Surgicals to deal with Lingering Souls and saving your Brainstorms for their discard.

[ivanpei]

However, I still feel jitte is a better equipment all around. You can shoot your own creatures to remove bridges or you can take down opposing weenie easily. I'm still not too sure if jitte or soff deserves the slot in the MD. Also should surgical be a 4 off in the board now? I am playing 2 surgical and 2 purify right now but surgical seems alot more useful. You need it against punishing fire, Loam and esperblade. It seems infinitely more Useful. But how many is the ideal number to board in? I don't want to flood with surgical against an opposing deck. I'm guessing 2 copies is ideal?

[Dzra]

I usually pack 4 Surgicals in the board because when I want to see it, I really want to see it. Against Reanimator and Dredge it's a fairly easy call of 4. Loam or Punishing Fire, I'd probably shoot for 2-3. Against the Punishing Loam variant, I'd go 4. Against Esperblade, it's a little tougher a call, but I'd probably go 3. Remember, removing things like FoW, Jace, SFM, etc are also totally valid aside from the Lingering Souls. Extraction effects are rarely dead. Against non-GY abusing decks, you have better ways to fill the slots, but even when it's only mediocre, it's still very live.

(Be careful of Esperblade Extracting your Extractions. They will try to go, t1 discard your SE into their own SE in order to clear their way for LS)

[ivanpei]

I've also found that jitte can be devastating against Maverick, especially with mishra's factory. They can't name colourless so a jitted factory can really wreck some face. Machine gunning down a pair of moms and cleaning up with spot removal is actually pretty strong.

I'm also likely to be playing in a budget meta this weekend so jitte feels like the stronger choice to me. I'll be expecting lots of cheaper decks like burn, Goblins, dredgers and Affinity. I doubt many people will have goyfs. In a more developed meta, soff may be the best way to go. I'm also going to play all surgicals in the board. I want to make sure I shit on dredge.

[Einherjer]

I am no Stoneblade-player any more (dropped this deck already) but how will you guys adopt your decks to Lingering Souls? Will you all swap to UWB? I ask this because Im pretty scared from this due to me playing RUG Tempo :P

Greetings

[ivanpei]

I don't see what the issue is. Lingering souls is just basically a token generator for Jitte. The way to beat it is still the same as beating the original UW Blade deck, stopping Stoneforge. If you stop Stoneforge from fetching Jitte, Lingering souls is just basically a very inefficient token maker. But once Jitte is on the board, Lingering Souls provides an infinite stream of dudes to equip. With discard in UWB, Stoneforge becomes harder to counter.

Also, UW has to adapt, because lingering souls also kills Jace bad. That's why I'm also running Jitte MD with Batterskull. If you can get Jitte online, you can control the 1/1 flyers easily or Legend rule the opposing Jitte. You can race those puny 1/1 flyers with a resoved Batterskull. The key is to stop their SFM/Jitte.

[chags]

I don't see what the issue is. Lingering souls is just basically a token generator for Jitte. The way to beat it is still the same as beating the original UW Blade deck, stopping Stoneforge. If you stop Stoneforge from fetching Jitte, Lingering souls is just basically a very inefficient token maker. But once Jitte is on the board, Lingering Souls provides an infinite stream of dudes to equip. With discard in UWB, Stoneforge becomes harder to counter.

Also, UW has to adapt, because lingering souls also kills Jace bad. That's why I'm also running Jitte MD with Batterskull. If you can get Jitte online, you can control the 1/1 flyers easily or Legend rule the opposing Jitte. You can race those puny 1/1 flyers with a resoved Batterskull. The key is to stop their SFM/Jitte.

I've been playing uw with jitte as the second equipment for the past three months, I like way more then running a sword. Jitte gives you so much control over the game, swords always struck me as being much better in bant lists. With lingering souls, mom, mongoose, and that silly hexproof nonsense running around I really like running 2 engineered explosives main with an academy.

[crovakiet]

However, I still feel jitte is a better equipment all around. You can shoot your own creatures to remove bridges or you can take down opposing weenie easily. I'm still not too sure if jitte or soff deserves the slot in the MD. Also should surgical be a 4 off in the board now? I am playing 2 surgical and 2 purify right now but surgical seems alot more useful. You need it against punishing fire, Loam and esperblade. It seems infinitely more Useful. But how many is the ideal number to board in? I don't want to flood with surgical against an opposing deck. I'm guessing 2 copies is ideal?

If you were playing UW Blade Control and up against Esperblade, surgical extractions are a LOT less useful against lingering souls. Since this is a control mirror, its all about lands/resource management. Once the esperblade player reaches 5 lands, you can't depend on surgical to extract lingering souls because they can cast lingering souls retain priority once its resolved and/or countered and flashback lingering souls. At no point in there can you extract if you had the surgical extraction in hand. You would have to make them NOT have the 2 mana sources in order to flashback right after.

[Koby]

The black splash also gives the deck better tools against one of its worse matchups (Maverick) in the form of Perish. That's a pretty good reason to splash the Black.

[Dzra]

UW should have the advantage as far as resolving SFM goes. Spell Snare stops SFM better than discard. It is extremely key to save your Brainstorms in this MU though.

[Malakai]

It makes absolutely zero sense to go through all of this trouble to adapt to Lingering Souls, when UW is already getting crushed by Maverick, a much more popular deck. You don't want to in-breed even more against blue decks--you want to beat the expected field, and that starts with beating Mom and company.

[Dzra]

The advantage of Lingering Souls is that it's the best way to utilize Jitte and Jitte is really, really good against Maverick. I think that straight UW still has its advantages though, like more basics and access to Wasteland. Perish and Zealous Persecution are also good tools against Maverick. This isn't anything new though, Black has always had the deepest SB options.

[matunos]

It makes absolutely zero sense to go through all of this trouble to adapt to Lingering Souls, when UW is already getting crushed by Maverick, a much more popular deck. You don't want to in-breed even more against blue decks--you want to beat the expected field, and that starts with beating Mom and company.

I think the concern is that after the GP:Indy, there will be a surge of Esperblade decks. I've already seen one in my meta (from someone who was previously playing Maverick, though not happy about it, I don't think).

I don't think it's unreasonable then to discuss what to do differently in preparation for Esperblade; on the other hand, you're right that it would be an overreaction to change anything big given that Esper's neither dominant nor likely to overtake existing Maverick in local metas.

Anyway, I don't see the UW decklist needing to change much. As others have said here: stop SFM, prevent Jitte; get your own Jitte. EE seems useful, as does Tower of the Magistrate. Oh, and maybe this is one of the few matchups in which playing your Wastelands for mana denial will pay dividends. Martell's GP list at least has fewer basics than we do, fewer lands overall, and a greater dependence on multicolor, it would seem.

Unlike crovakiet, I think Surgical Extraction is useful. Is your opponent going to wait until 5 lands if a Lingering Souls is in his hand (especially if only running 22 lands)? And if he Intuitions into Lingering Souls, Surgical is very relevant. And even if Lingering Souls never makes for a good target, Extraction is always useful against control if for little more than to see his hand, maybe remove some counters/StPs. Now... is Extraction useful enough to board out cards in your MD? That's another question...

[Dzra]

Just a mild rules question. I pass the turn. EoT, my opponent casts Intuition for Lingering Souls. When do I get priority again to Surgical? Ideally I don't want to wait until they untap and potentially open up Counterspell mana.

[Basaka]

After they finish resolving Intuition.

More accurately, intuition resolves and goes to the graveyard. active player then gets priority. You're probably going to be the active player, so you're welcome to extract the souls.

[Malakai]

I am not saying that it is wrong to prepare for Esperblade with Lingering Souls. Not at all. What I am saying is that people are already unprepared for Maverick, as evidenced by the results of literally every open. The current measures are completely insufficient. UW Blade needs to change in order to make that matchup at least 50/50, and from there re-evaluate UW vs. Esper.

The matchup is bad enough, and exists in sufficient numbers, that "extreme" plans are warranted. I don't know what that plan is, but I do know that a couple paths and a couple wraths aren't it. It could be something as out-there as boarding into a combo deck.

[matunos]

Are there full event reports for the Opens? My schedule doesn't usually align with following them live; I have a backlog of featured matches from the podcasts, and I try to make sure to watch any matches involving Stoneblade. The last time I see Stoneblade vs. Maverick is the Tampa semifinals (William Cao vs. Michael Caffrey), but it wasn't a featured match. All I can see is that Cao won in 2. I haven't started watching the mirror match final yet.

Is there a more comprehensive reports summary, including outside the Top 16?

I haven't had occasion to play against Maverick. I've played against Punishing Zoo, and have done okay there (won 1 match in 3, lost another match in 3, different weeks). I've had to deal with Mother of Runes. She sucks, but it's rarely the end of the world. At worst, she two-for-ones you, negating that wonderful CA of Snapcaster. Wrath removes her (and everyone else), EE removes her, Jitte removes her. Flying usually gets past her.

I've recently picked up some Mutavaults to test out the faerie package, as I hadn't played that before. I didn't do very well with it this week, but I faced Dredge and two ANT decks, not my personal strengths (first time playing Dredge in a tournament, and I made a stupid keep decision in game 2; just couldn't get enough counters when I needed them against ANT w/Orim's Chant/Silence; also should have Surg. Extracted Dark Ritual when I had the chance, just in case it would have mattered; also didn't enough additional counter in the SB as I didn't expect to see so much storm). But in terms of stopping 1-drops and occasionally more (I've re-added Clique in place of Geist due to the Spellstutters), the Spellstutters are kind of nice. They seem like they could be useful against ANT, where they can't be Duressed; too bad I didn't draw one in my combo matchups.

I know others have experienced problems like getting the sprites killed in response to their trigger; I guess that's one less removal for SFM. I'll see. I'm basically playing them in place of Lightning Bolt right now (still have REB in the sideboard, but maindeck the red is only useful for EE@3).

Anyway, I don't know how much all that helps against Maverick. I did witness Esperblade take down Maverick, FWIW, but GP:Indy already showed that much (and the same Maverick that took down U/W Stoneblade), right?

EDIT: Just saw the Cao vs. Caffrey coverage show up in my podcast, so, at least there's that. :)

[mairou]

We had a 53-player legacy event here in Finland and I got 2nd place with following list:

4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Wasteland

4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Vendilion Clique

3x Lingering Souls
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

2x Path to Exile
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Thoughtseize
2x Perish
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage

I really liked this list, though I may cut some Spell Snares for Inquistion of Kozileks. I am a huge fan of spell snare in current meta, so thats why I played 4 of them, but I guess Inquisition does the same thing. Also I would cut the maindeck SoFaF and add the fourth Lingering Souls, it just wasn't as impressive it had been previously.

What comes to the Intuition and Vindicate in Martell's list, I just wasn't convinced about them. Vindicate surely takes care of opposing jaces, chokes and so on and with Intuition you can search up for some value with Snapcaster, but 3 mana is lot in legacy. Also what Martell's list had that I wouldnt ever do is play this deck with 22 lands. 23 is the absolute minimum.

Overall sideboard was success, Cage's were pretty amazing against dredge and reanimator along Surgical Extractions. Perishes and EE's helped against Maverick. The one thing I didn't like was the extra clique in sideboard. I did board it against dredge and reanimator but in the other matchups it wasn't needed and I sided out the maindeck one also.

Meta was what I expected it to be: Lots of Maverick, UW(b) Blade and RUG.

Quick sum of tournament:

R1 - RUG 2-0
R2 - Mirror - Martell's list w/ few alterations. 2-1
R3 - U/B Merfolk 2-1
R4 - Punishing Maverick 1-1-1
R5 - Dredge 2-1
R6 - ID w/ Maverick
TOP8 - Reanimator 2-1
TOP4 - RUG CounterTop 2-0
TOP2 - SPLIT w/ R3 opponent & played for lols and lost g1, scooped him the extra points due the clock was already so late.

[Dzra]

How necessary do people think Mishra's Factory (or any manland) is? I may be crusading, but I keep wanting more basics and more fetches, maybe even 2-3 Glacial Fortress... Against most decks, especially Maverick, losing generally feels like a result of being mana-locked out of the game.

[Koby]

Try this manabase out for size:

2 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
7 fetchland
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Glacial Fortress

[matunos]

How necessary do people think Mishra's Factory (or any manland) is? I may be crusading, but I keep wanting more basics and more fetches, maybe even 2-3 Glacial Fortress... Against most decks, especially Maverick, losing generally feels like a result of being mana-locked out of the game.

Nice to have; not necessary. If you're not getting the value you want out of them, go ahead and swap 'em out.

[Samara]

Sometimes Mishra's doesn't actualy does anything but helps anyway.

Like, if you opponent atacks you with a 2/2, and you have a untaped mishra...obviously he has a removal, if you wanna trade it for one of your lands, is up to you.... you may also notice he doesn't has a removal by "no atacking choise".

Having a mishra there, means the opponent can't do things that he would do otherwise, like, tapping out or blow your tundra.

A A LOT of times you can use it just for pressure, hit 2 every turn, and the opponent knows he can't just sit there for so long.

In lategame I rather draw a mishra then a tundra. Gives you more options (doesn't matter if you will use it).

Mishra's is a very strong card, But I would run only 1. (It helps you more often than karacas or riptide lab)

[ivanpei]

I think Mishra is a fine card. If you are playing more than 2 colours, it's probably not a good Idea to run it. In UW, it's pretty useful. I run 5 colourless lands out of 24 and I haven't had much problems with my mana so far. 3 Factories and 2 Wastes seem like an ok number.

Mishra speeds up the deck's other wise slow clock. Getting in there with a Snapcaster + Factory can finish games fast sometimes. You don't want to draw out too many games. Also, it's useful when you can wear an equipment in a pinch or attack down a Planeswalker. Also Mishra trades 1 for 1 with a Nimble Mongoose which is hard to kill.

Overall Mishra+Wasteland are the most useful colourless lands. But don't compromise your manabase by running too many. It can be very useful in the control mirror where every "live" card counts. It can also screw you over against decks with wasteland when you draw too many colourless sources.

Edit: anyone tried punishing grove in Stoneblade? You'd have to cut all the colourless lands, but it seems powerful enough to warrant splashing. Thoughts?

[matunos]

Edit: anyone tried punishing grove in Stoneblade? You'd have to cut all the colourless lands, but it seems powerful enough to warrant splashing. Thoughts?

The idea is proposed from time to time, but I think most of us believe it to not be a good match for Stoneblade. With no way to tutor for a Grove, you have to run too many of them if you want it to be more than cute, and now you're screwing up your mana base with off color lands that you can't even fetch when you need them. I'd bet that, on average its not any faster than it would be for us to assemble a ThopterSword combo (which would probably require fewer slots), and honestly, if I'm going to assemble a combo, I'd prefer ThopterSword.

That's just my theory, though. I haven't actually tried Punishing Grove.

[Ten-Ten]

hello, long time type1 player, new to Legacy blade control.
Just wondering if anybody has tried echoing truth MB to answer the tokens against lingering souls or dredge's bfb zombies?
If so, how effective is it in other MU as well?

Also, does Elbrus, the binding blade + Looter il-kor have a place in this deck?

thank you.

(my apollogies for not knowing how to autocard here)

[matunos]

hello, long time type1 player, new to Legacy blade control.
Just wondering if anybody has tried echoing truth MB to answer the tokens against lingering souls or dredge's bfb zombies?
If so, how effective is it in other MU as well?

Also, does Elbrus, the binding blade + Looter il-kor have a place in this deck?

thank you.

(my apollogies for not knowing how to autocard here)

If you were looking to force an equipped Elbrus through, I would think something like Invisible Stalker would be better, because he's also protected by hexproof. And since you're hoping for Withengar to be your wincon, the looter effect is less important than the hexproof.

But the problem is that Elbrus itself doesn't confer much of a benefit, Invisible Stalker itself isn't much of a benefit, and Withengar has a big fat target on him, and likely can't close the game in one shot. So, it's a lot of work to gain 13 life (or to watch the combo fizzle due to artifact hate).

[lordofthepit]

I've been playing this deck recently (the black-splash version) after playing mostly aggro decks recently, and I've been pretty unhappy with Umezawa's Jitte whenever I grab it. I'm probably making mistakes when I search for it, since I'm used to having a lot of creatures to equip to Jitte, but it's such a big tempo sink when you pay 4 mana to play/cheat and equip, then get your only creature blown out by removal.

For those of you who are more experienced, has this been the MD Jitte been good for you? I'm thinking of replacing it with a second Batterskull. I would consider one of the Swords, but they suffer from the same problem as Jitte.

[matunos]

I've been playing this deck recently (the black-splash version) after playing mostly aggro decks recently, and I've been pretty unhappy with Umezawa's Jitte whenever I grab it. I'm probably making mistakes when I search for it, since I'm used to having a lot of creatures to equip to Jitte, but it's such a big tempo sink when you pay 4 mana to play/cheat and equip, then get your only creature blown out by removal.

For those of you who are more experienced, has this been the MD Jitte been good for you? I'm thinking of replacing it with a second Batterskull. I would consider one of the Swords, but they suffer from the same problem as Jitte.

I think the idea with Lingering Souls is that you can get multiple evasive creatures out quickly, so tutoring up the Jitte and getting it active is easier. When you're not generating tokens like that, it's more of a problem.

The difference with the swords is they confer an immediate benefit with their +2/+2, which can bring the creature out of bolt range (depending on who it is), and also offer color protection, so for instance your opponent's Tarmogoyf can't block it.

With non-LS, I still like SoFF main, Jitte side. With the LS I think the Jitte is arguably better, but there's certainly room for personal judgement there.

The benefit of having a non-Batterskull option is that the swords and Jitte are easier to hardcast when your SFM is removed (which is often). It also leaves you less susceptible to things like Pithing Needle, I suppose.

[lordofthepit]

I think the idea with Lingering Souls is that you can get multiple evasive creatures out quickly, so tutoring up the Jitte and getting it active is easier. When you're not generating tokens like that, it's more of a problem.

The difference with the swords is they confer an immediate benefit with their +2/+2, which can bring the creature out of bolt range (depending on who it is), and also offer color protection, so for instance your opponent's Tarmogoyf can't block it.

With non-LS, I still like SoFF main, Jitte side. With the LS I think the Jitte is arguably better, but there's certainly room for personal judgement there.

The benefit of having a non-Batterskull option is that the swords and Jitte are easier to hardcast when your SFM is removed (which is often). It also leaves you less susceptible to things like Pithing Needle, I suppose.

I agree with most of what you said, but I would argue that while having an evasive creature improves the value of Umezawa's Jitte, it improves the value of Sword of Fire and Ice (or any other Sword, but primarily SoFI for its insane triggered abilities) even more. Jitte is pretty powerful when you can just kamikaze one of your guys into a blocker just to gain counters, but you don't necessarily need a flier to do that. The Swords actually need to connect, and the evasion is really awesome there.

In fact, the original Belgian list ran SoFI instead of Jitte, which Martell switched to. Not sure what's better in a general metagame.

[matunos]

I agree with most of what you said, but I would argue that while having an evasive creature improves the value of Umezawa's Jitte, it improves the value of Sword of Fire and Ice (or any other Sword, but primarily SoFI for its insane triggered abilities) even more. Jitte is pretty powerful when you can just kamikaze one of your guys into a blocker just to gain counters, but you don't necessarily need a flier to do that. The Swords actually need to connect, and the evasion is really awesome there.

In fact, the original Belgian list ran SoFI instead of Jitte, which Martell switched to. Not sure what's better in a general metagame.

Fair enough. I think when you have a cheap supply of token creatures, they're more expendable, so running them into a blocker or chumping with them to power the Jitte is a smart move. When you don't, and you're running only 10-12 real creatures, I think you want to be more conservative for that reason too. And you're right, evasiveness helps in that regard.

But also, once you have the Jitte active, evasiveness is good whether it's on tokens or not, so you can do an extra 2+ to the face if you so choose, rather than running into chump blocks yourself.

[matunos]

BTW, I've gone back and forth on including SoFI or Jitte in the side (still playing SoFF main). Does anyone have specific experiences comparing the two? Jitte just seems so powerful and versatile if you can get it going.

[lordofthepit]

BTW, I've gone back and forth on including SoFI or Jitte in the side (still playing SoFF main). Does anyone have specific experiences comparing the two? Jitte just seems so powerful and versatile if you can get it going.

Unfortunately, most of my experience with equipment comes from playing Zoo a long time ago, but occasionally Bant or Maverick. In general, I'm a lot less patient with equipment than other people are, and I tilt really hard when I sink a lot of mana into an equipped creature that gets removed (which is why I often don't run equipment in decks that usually do). :laugh:

I haven't played Stoneblade long enough to form an opinion there, but I have only once been able to stick a Jitte onto a creature when it mattered (opponent was on Maverick), and that Jitte ended up getting K-Gripped with 5 counters on it (opponent's board was empty and my Batterskull had been previously destroyed). I ended up losing that game.

Batterskull, which I would never play in my aggro decks, has been amazing, even when I have to hardcast it. Granted, I probably made a lot of mistakes by fetching Jitte when I should have fetched Batterskull, out of inexperience.

[matunos]

hello, long time type1 player, new to Legacy blade control.
Just wondering if anybody has tried echoing truth MB to answer the tokens against lingering souls or dredge's bfb zombies?
If so, how effective is it in other MU as well?

Forgot about your first question. Personally, I think Engineered Explosives is more versatile. It can blow out tokens (and transformed creatures) for 2 mana, but can also take out lots of other things, and with the mana curves of most top legacy decks, it's almost always got some relevance. It's even occasionally effective against storm combo, if they play out their LEDs/Moxen/Petals before they're ready to go off; and can also wipe the board of goblin tokens after Empty the Warrens.

[matunos]

Unfortunately, most of my experience with equipment comes from playing Zoo a long time ago, but occasionally Bant or Maverick. In general, I'm a lot less patient with equipment than other people are, and I tilt really hard when I sink a lot of mana into an equipped creature that gets removed (which is why I often don't run equipment in decks that usually do). :laugh:

I haven't played Stoneblade long enough to form an opinion there, but I have only once been able to stick a Jitte onto a creature when it mattered (opponent was on Maverick), and that Jitte ended up getting K-Gripped with 5 counters on it (opponent's board was empty and my Batterskull had been previously destroyed). I ended up losing that game.

Batterskull, which I would never play in my aggro decks, has been amazing, even when I have to hardcast it. Granted, I probably made a lot of mistakes by fetching Jitte when I should have fetched Batterskull, out of inexperience.

My experience with Jitte in Stoneblade has been similar. So much potential, but difficult to get started *and* still have a creature to carry it. Although, maybe it'll be a little better with my Sprites. Usually, I'm happy enough with SoFF, but dropping a -1/-1 on a Mother of Runes is so tempting...

Batterskull is ridiculous (and its flavor makes no sense either). It's saved me from 1 live against burn (after swordsing my own Mishra's to stay alive). It's especially nice when you can hardcast him (even if you don't have to), because that usually means you can bounce and re-cast or equip as needed, except, obviously, against Krosan Grip. To be honest, I don't see a lot of K. Grip, because the decks that would run it (Bant, Maverick) have Qasali Pridemage, so they either don't board grips at all, or they only have 1. It's probably a smart move: Pridemage is hateful enough, and more versatile. I used to have grips in my sideboard with one Trop, Tony Chu style, but the only opportunity I ever had to cast it was as a last hurrah against Enchantress before conceding. Now I figure splashing red is more useful (I'm trying to resist Esperblade).

I'm still trying to figure out the best times to fetch one over the other. My theory has been if I'm going off early, fetch the sword/jitte, as they're easier to hardcast, but oftentimes, you just end up with your sword/jitte and no creatures (this is a case where SoFF shines, if you have a manland). This may not be as much of an issue for Esperblade with Lingering Souls. Watching the top8s, I see Stoneblade players fetching Batterskull early (e.g. turn 3, sometimes turn 2) a lot more often than I have been, so maybe it's worth just getting him in your hand.

[DarthVicious]

(I'm trying to resist Esperblade).

On a similar note, I just ordered the cards to put Esperblade together. Afterwards, I found out it's the deck that won the GP. Go figure.

[delcameron]

As a whole, I love the Esper Stoneblade list and sideboard. Only one thing isn't clicking: what's the use of the singleton Intuition? Is it just expected to be a general tutor, or is it there more specifically as, say, a fifth Lingering Souls or a fourth Force of Will?

[matunos]

As a whole, I love the Esper Stoneblade list and sideboard. Only one thing isn't clicking: what's the use of the singleton Intuition? Is it just expected to be a general tutor, or is it there more specifically as, say, a fifth Lingering Souls or a fourth Force of Will?

Intuition for 3 Lingering Souls. You can play one and flashback the others. If they don't get surgically extracted, that is. :-)

BTW, there's a dedicated thread for Esperblade here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21453-Deck-UWb-Esperblade

[delcameron]

Great - thanks matunos!

[ivanpei]

Played the GP KL side event yesterday. 40 man cut to t8 after 6 rounds. However due to time constraints, it was 6 rounds with t8 split (1st seed drafts duals first etc). The prize pool was 10 revised duals and a box of boosters.

1st round vs rug tempo:
Absolutely blow him out g1. My manabase was rock solid and I just kept removing his threats. He plays the snapcaster version, which IMO is much slower than the mongoose version. Batterskull won it for me after he gang blocked skull but I had the plow.

G2 grudge gave me some trouble but he could not keep threats on the table because of my stream of removal. Eventually Snapcasters and factory won the game for me.

2nd round vs reanimator:
Met this guy before when I was playing in Singapore. However his play this round really pissed me off. G1 I pathed an angel after he used it to kill my jace. He then proceeded to Reanimate angel again without me noticing. Savage cheats. I still win the game but I noticed during Sideboarding and brought it up. He apologised so I was, ok fine.

G2 I had too much hate and he was losing. I cliqued him and pointed to Jin. He put it into his bloody graveyard and I was like no no not again you cheating ass. I asked him to shove that shit under his deck. I proceed to rape him with clique-karakas lock and got there comfortably.

I called a judge at this point after the game and put him on the watch list. Best I could do for the other guys he will be playing against.

Round 3 vs burn:
When I say this mu is bad, I mean really really bad. G1 I dealt with 2 hellsparks with path but still died horribly. Post board I only have pierces to bring in.

G2 I plowed 2 guides after some free land and I still died, wasn't even close. He flooded with land but my non existent clock let him draw a billion burn spells to finish me. This mu is abysmal. I'm gonna need cop red next time.

Round 4 esper blade:
Lingering souls spanked me g1, I just couldn't not deal with it. My jitte got legend ruled and token advantage won it for him.

G2 we fought over the key surgical extraction. Some timely responses with brainstorm against inquisition let me protect my snapcaster and I successfully surgicalled his lingering souls. We go back and forth but I pretty much counter everything and beat with weenies FTW.

There was only 4 mins left in the round for g3 so we drew after neither of us could get a fast enough start. Oh well, control mirrors are like that.

Round 5 vs dredge:
I know the guy who was the previous PTQ winner for modern. He was 2-2 and out of contention for t8 so he scooped to me. We play it out anyway for fun and I beat him g1 but his slow dredging couldn't beat a batterskull with a jitte on it. A flash snap trading with a. Zombie, removing bridges won it for me pretty much earlier in the game.

G2 double led faithless looting Cephalid Coliseum god hand rolled me. No chance. I manage to surgical both Ichorid and bridge but death my Narcomoeba totally embarrassed me lol.

G3 my surgicals make short work of his deck. The synergy with snapcaster is insanely. He hail maryed a dread returned grave troll but I chump till I draw the plow. Got there.

Round 6 bubble match vs rug tempo.
He was 5-1 and requested a draw but since he was paired down and I was paired up, I had to win out. We proceed to play and g1 his t1 Delver went all the way but it was really close. That's what rug does.

G2 was epic because by this time we were the last players left in the tournament as most have dropped or scooped to those in contention. The crouded piled the pressure on but man was this a legendary game. We went back and forth but I managed to stick an Elspeth for a few turns before a Delver and a bolt finished her. My sfm stuck so I had batterskull down. He eventually built and army of 3 goyfs, 1 goose and a Delver. I rip wrath. I try the wrath, gets forced. I now chump with everything to buy a turn. I have to rip another wrath of snapcaster to survive. I rip my korean fbb wrath.

Wont woot huge cheers from the crowd. Savage rips! I wipe the board but he draws the grudge for the batterskull and at thus point we are playing totally off the top of our library. I eventually stick a crucible and start waste locking him. I Hardcast force on a bunch of geese along the way and. Plow everything. He finally remembers he has a grudge in the yard and. Pops my crucible. However I've already wiped all his. Coloured sources. He sandbags fetches and when he draws his last Goyf, he fetched his last trop and played it. I have the plow. I draw a waste and waste his last trop. He now has no way of killing me but I have no. Clock. He plays it out. I was a little pissed that he didn't scoop. At this point but a draw is advantages for. Him. I go into turbo play mode and I eventually get a pair of Snapcasters down and. Beat him to death. Epic game.

G3 we only had 4 mins to play so we eventually draw despite turbo playing from me and him insisting to shuffle my deck after every time I fetch. He pile shuffled AFTER I presented my deck, wtf mulligan and pile shuffled again. But the head judge was watching the game so I guess it was nothing excessive. I was on turbo tilt at this point praying for him to hurry up. We draw in the end and as the final prize split was based on standings after 6 rounds, I scooped to him to place him. Higher in the standings. Though I was a little bit tilted by his slow play, he didn't do anything wrong rules wise and he played very well. All in all I was just on edge cause I needed to win out.

A game away from t8. Oh well, it happens. But it was a blast. Fun games!

[matunos]

This mu [vs Burn] is abysmal. I'm gonna need cop red next time.

Do you think CoP is better than Aegis of Honor here?

[Dzra]

Round 3 vs burn:
When I say this mu is bad, I mean really really bad. G1 I dealt with 2 hellsparks with path but still died horribly. Post board I only have pierces to bring in.

G2 I plowed 2 guides after some free land and I still died, wasn't even close. He flooded with land but my non existent clock let him draw a billion burn spells to finish me. This mu is abysmal. I'm gonna need cop red next time.

What's your decklist like? Burn is never a matchup I'd take lightly, but it usually doesn't give me that much trouble.

[matunos]

What's your decklist like? Burn is never a matchup I'd take lightly, but it usually doesn't give me that much trouble.

In my limited experience against burn (maybe someone else can back me up, or correct me), the key is to untap with a Batterskull. If you can do that, you have a good chance of winning.

The problem is that the fastest we can untap with a Batterskull is T2 SFM, somehow keep her alive (FoW?), T3 cheat out Batterskull, T4 untap. Burn can often kill you before then, and I don't know what other outs we have other than netting those particular cards.

It's definitely an adrenaline rush if you can make the comeback, though.

[ivanpei]

I played this list:

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Stp
2 Path

4 Sfm
4 Snapcaster
2 Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Jace
1 Elspeth

4 Tundra
4 Flooded
4 Scalding
1 Arid mesa
2 Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Islands
1 Karakas

Sb:
4 Surgical
4 Spell pierce
2 Wrath
2 Path
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible

I played uw because I wanted a stable manabase. I was expecting alot of budget decks but apparently plenty of tier 1 turned up as well. At the last big event I was screwed by wastelands and blood moons. However the stable manabase paid off against the rug Delver decks I played against. The esper mu didn't seem that bad though g1 is very hard. It is very very hard to attack with an equipped creatures against burn. All our dudes die to a single bolt in response to equip. Some dedicated hate is required to have any chance against burn.

[TkDodo]

With that very solid list, I don't think burn should be a big problem. Thing is, they can't beat an active Batterskull. Any hand with a Mystic is probably good enough. If you play Mystic T3 or so, even without backup, if they have to use a burn spell on the Mystic, you will live longer, so hard-casting Batterskull T5 shouldn't be a problem. Once that is done, the game should be over. Standard things to consider would normally be just to save your Snares for Price of Progress, or play around it by fetching Basics whenever possible, don't get blown out by a timely Fireblast etc. It also depends on their build, but I don't think neither Hellspark Elemental nor Figure of Destiny do a lot against us - they just make our StoP better.

Postboard, things might get a little tougher if they have Smash to Smithereens. But again, a Mystic on T3 with either Pierce or Snare or Force backup should do it most of the time. You can even board in Disenchant to fight Sulfuric Vortex (which really p0wns us), or just save a Force/Pierce for it.

On top of that, at least in my experience, most burn Players are not very good. Maybe that's because good players tend to play more interactive / complex decks, don't know. But for instance, the plan to just ignore SFM and burn everything to the face can't realistically work (and I've seen that a lot lately).

[Dzra]

With that list you can probably board out -2 Clique, -1 Elspeth, -1 Jace, -1 Jitte, -1 Wasteland and go +4 Pierce, +2 PtE. If you're feeling frisky, you can drop another Waste for a Surgical or Disenchant (but realistically they should never land Sulfuric Vortex through all the Pierces/FoW). With 4 Pierces and 8 swords effects, you should be able to handle anything they throw, not even counting Snapcaster.

Basically, your gameplan is Batterskull. I wouldn't tap out to play SFM unless I had FoW backup. Not necessarily for protecting the SFM, but mostly to make sure they don't do silly things like Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast or drop a Sulfuric Vortex. They shouldn't be able to kill you before t4/5 through all the countermagic and one swing with Batterskull usually ends the game.

Your backup plan is grinding them out by answering 4 or so of their heavy hitters (Goblin Guide, Hellspark, Vortex, Fireblast, Price) and then dropping a Jace and Fatesealing them out of the game. With no way to gain card advantage, a Spell Pierce on Fireblast or a Snapcaster for just about anything is GG on it's own. Start with Fateseal to get out of Bolt range, then switch to Brainstorm for a while to rebuild your counters, then (fate)seal the deal. ;)

REB is only a problem when it counters one of your counterspells because that probably means they are trying to force through lethal. You don't really care if they want to waste it to blow up Jace or a Snapcaster, etc. (unless you're swimming in counters and they are in topdeck mode)

[matunos]

Postboard, things might get a little tougher if they have Smash to Smithereens.

I can see why Smash to Smithereens would be popular to a burn player, but I think the better choice for them is Shattering Spree, which is a bit harder for us to deal with (not snare-able, and they can replicate it to get around pierces, counters).

That is, for instance, the artifact hate that Anthony Phaneuf was boarding in his burn deck in SCG: Memphis.

[klaus]

I played this list...

Beautiful list - resembles what I'd be running (except -1 Snare + 1 Geist).
Even with three Snares there are plenty of games when I have Snares sitting in my hand forever. What's your experience with the full playset?

Will you keep that Crucible in the SB? I kind of feel it's not necessary.

Edit: "Minor suggestion"
-2 Tarn
+1 Delta
+1 Rainforest
(due to Extirpate effects)

[ivanpei]

I haven't had much experience with Geist, from my limited testing, it's a very good card in the Mirror of when you are trying to push damage. It's main advantage is taking down walkers like Jace/Elspeth because they can't kill it/bounce it. However, it is also very vulnerable to a flashed Snapcaster (even worse into a flashed brainstorm). I find that it does improve the control MU, but I'd run lingering souls if I wanted to beat the control mirror.

Geist is bad against aggro and so-so against combo. I highly doubt I'd tap out against combo for a Geist, so you can see the problem there. As for a full set of Snare, it's not a must, 3 is fine as well. I haven't had problems with a full set yet, it has always been useful. Against Nimble Mongoose RUG, I board out all my snares because the only thing to counter is Goyf. Since I play a full set of path and swords after board, I didn't need any snares at all.

Crucible in the board is a flex slot, but I've found it very useful. I board it in against decks which have a LD plan (aggro loam/rug) and also the Control mirror. It's a very versatile card in which it not only saves you when you are behind (ie getting screwed with wastes), but also puts you ahead when the game state is about even. It's a must answer in the long game. I like it over, say another walker because the colourless 3cc is very easy on the curve. Usually you get screwed on coloured mana as stifles/wastes will target our coloured, so crucible has saved me plenty of times in that situation, then put me ahead with wastelock/ recurring factories.

Thanks for the suggestions, yes its more optimal to spread out the fetches, however the Tarns are a leftover from my pre-snapcaster UWR/Lavamancer days and I can't be assed replacing the foil fetches. :P If I get screwed my needle/surgical, I'll probably slap myself like Saito.

[Dzra]

I don't think Geist is that great in the Mirror. Whenever I see Geist, I do a mental fistpump because that means less Cliques. Geist is easily stopped with a Snapcaster/Factory/Clique and the Clique/Snapcaster always makes it a 2-for-1. Clique really shines in clearing the way for a Jace/Elspeth, while Geist does nothing but beats.

[preddi]

I don't think Geist is that great in the Mirror. Whenever I see Geist, I do a mental fistpump because that means less Cliques. Geist is easily stopped with a Snapcaster/Factory/Clique and the Clique/Snapcaster always makes it a 2-for-1. Clique really shines in clearing the way for a Jace/Elspeth, while Geist does nothing but beats.

I agree with Clique > Geist in the Mirror

[Malakai]

Clique is better than Geist in every matchup.

[ivanpei]

Anyone tried flusterstorm in the board? I'm thinking of running a 2/2 split of fluster and pierce. Though pierce is more flexible, I only board in 2 max against control because 2 many might be blanks late. My 3rd and 4th pierce come in mainly against combo. In that situation, fluster is superior due to its near uncounterability. Thoughts?

[matunos]

Anyone tried flusterstorm in the board? I'm thinking of running a 2/2 split of fluster and pierce. Though pierce is more flexible, I only board in 2 max against control because 2 many might be blanks late. My 3rd and 4th pierce come in mainly against combo. In that situation, fluster is superior due to its near uncounterability. Thoughts?

I've had Flusterstorm in the board, as there is an unfortunate amount of storm combo in my local meta. I've never had occasion to use it. The problem is two-fold: Orrim's Chant and Silence. By the time your opponent is casting Tendrils, they've probably gotten one of those through. You usually have to stop them earlier, and for that Spell Pierce is often just as good (or just as ineffectual). I've started boarding Canonist instead. I know it's not a lock, but my hope is that between Canonist, and counters, I can slow them down enough that I can get their life down far enough that Ad Nauseum fizzles.

[ivanpei]

I agree canonist is much better if solely against storm. However the reason I prefer fluster is because it stops other combo decks like reanimator. Since the printing of graveborn, reanimator has become pretty popular and I prefer my sb cards to be as versatile as possible.

Also chant effects are a pain, yes. In this regard fluster is only slightly better than pierce because if you force the initial chant and they still attempt to go off while playing around pierce (generally they'll go off late in the game because we have no clock and by then, will have a ton of mana), flusterstorm is pretty much a hard counter.

Also flusterstorm is pretty much gg against high tide. High tide into spiral? Fluster will stop that no matter how many counters he has.

[preddi]

I tried Flusterstorm in my UWr board and am pretty pleased with it overall. I play 3 Reb effects, 2 Pierce and 2 Flusterstorm. I think this is somewhat optimal for almost every matchup. Sure for storm flusterstorm is nuts, especially with snapcaster. I found it useful against RUG too.

[MD.Ghost]

I disagree with Geist<Clique in the Mirror, both cost 3 mana, are pitchable to force and are legendary.

Geist as a clock has 6 power and clique 3.

Sure clique has flying, but dies to almost everything, removal, jitte or a flipped delver. Maverick has also some nasty flying creatures and you can count the new esperblade token, spellstuter sprites, bitterblossom, squadron hawks, etc.

Yeah, if you control the board, every creature can bring down an opponent.

Geist can be flashed down? Sure, but you can also smash clique with clique or snapcaster with sword/bolt, all common 3 mana options. Remember, if a Geist can attack, his player has also mana open, to protect it for incoming blockers. But even blocked, a Geist pushes 4 damage to your opponent or a walker. If you count equipment, and you should, because this deck is known as "Stoneblade", a Geist is a much harder threat compared to Clique, if both are equiped. Against Maverick a Geist with Sword of Feast and Famine is my prefered win option, especially if the play the common punishing Fire Version.

If you count combohate, yeah clique is the right option, if you can survive 3 turns.

I play UWr, with Geist and Bolts MD and i crushed an UWr Stoneblade with clique at my last tournament very easy 2:0.

[preddi]

Don't get me wrong. Geist is a fine card, but clique supports your gameplan (which should be sticking a planeswalker and not creatures). Clique is more versatile too. Sure if you run a list with bolts and Stp you can remove clique easy, but you will lose a planeswalker or equipment in the process.
I play both in my lists and i'm pretty pleased with this split. On the draw in the mirror i board out geist and leave it in if i'm on the play.

[matunos]

I agree canonist is much better if solely against storm. However the reason I prefer fluster is because it stops other combo decks like reanimator. Since the printing of graveborn, reanimator has become pretty popular and I prefer my sb cards to be as versatile as possible.

Canonist is not only effective against storm combo, but also slows down Combo Elves, Enchantress, High Tide, and Hive Mind considerably.

I'm not seeing Flusterstorm's strength against Reanimator versus Spell Pierce. They don't tend to cast a lot of spells in a turn do they? Is it the ineffectiveness of FoW against it?

[Dzra]

Canonist is not only effective against storm combo, but also slows down Combo Elves, Enchantress, High Tide, and Hive Mind considerably.

I'm not seeing Flusterstorm's strength against Reanimator versus Spell Pierce. They don't tend to cast a lot of spells in a turn do they? Is it the ineffectiveness of FoW against it?

Also, Flusterstorm won't hit Animate Dead. I'd vote Spell Pierce every time.

[ivanpei]

To beat Reanimator, you want to hit the Discard outlets and not the Reanimation effects. You should be concentrating on countering entomb/careful study/show and tell instead of the Reanimation spells. They run less discard outlets than reanimation spells + Entomb gets them THE RIGHT DUDE while careful study digs in addition to pitching.

You want to have the T1 hard counter against entomb/careful. I usually lose when I can't answer a T1 Entomb/Careful backed by Daze and or Force of Will. Flusterstorm make sures that shit stays countered and thats what I like about it. I'm not saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce. I believe Pierce is the better card, however I am saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce 3 and 4 because you will unlikely bring in more than 2 Pierces against anything thats not combo.

Therefore, if Pierce 3/4 are specifically against combo, shouldn't we be running the stronger combo hoser? That's what I plan to play right now, a 2/2 split of Pierce and Fluster in the board.

[klaus]

Therefore, if Pierce 3/4 are specifically against combo, shouldn't we be running the stronger combo hoser? That's what I plan to play right now, a 2/2 split of Pierce and Fluster in the board.

Interesting train of thought

[TkDodo]

To beat Reanimator, you want to hit the Discard outlets and not the Reanimation effects. You should be concentrating on countering entomb/careful study/show and tell instead of the Reanimation spells. They run less discard outlets than reanimation spells + Entomb gets them THE RIGHT DUDE while careful study digs in addition to pitching.


Don't know if that's the general best line of play accepted by the public, but my thinking goes more along the lines of letting them resolve their Discard outlets / Entombs, because they all put them down an actual card. I think you can't stop getting things in their yard forever, in the end, they might just discard a fattie end of turn with a hand full of reanimation spells and counters while you are out of everything.
Especially since we are talking about postboard play, when you have 3 Surgicals + Snapcasters available, I have no problem letting their discard outlet resolve, as long as they never get anything relevant into play through my counters and Surgicals. And if they go for the show and tell plan, their entombs / careful studys are useless anyway and probably just counter-baits.



You want to have the T1 hard counter against entomb/careful. I usually lose when I can't answer a T1 Entomb/Careful backed by Daze and or Force of Will. Flusterstorm make sures that shit stays countered and thats what I like about it. I'm not saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce. I believe Pierce is the better card, however I am saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce 3 and 4 because you will unlikely bring in more than 2 Pierces against anything thats not combo.

Therefore, if Pierce 3/4 are specifically against combo, shouldn't we be running the stronger combo hoser? That's what I plan to play right now, a 2/2 split of Pierce and Fluster in the board.

If you really have 4 sb-slots for an already good (or at least not super-bad) matchup, good for you. I'd rather have more outs against Maverick / Dredge / Tempo - in other words, the real problematic matchups for U/W Stoneblade before bothering with things like Flusterstorm.

[klaus]

If you really have 4 sb-slots for an already good (or at least not super-bad) matchup, good for you. I'd rather have more outs against Maverick / Dredge / Tempo - in other words, the real problematic matchups for U/W Stoneblade before bothering with things like Flusterstorm.

That man has got a point too.
Speaking of SBs - what's the current agreed upon core?

2 Wrath (+1)
2 Path (+1)
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Ex. (+1)
2 Pierce (+1/2)
1 EE

[anwei]

Has anyone tried running Gut Shot?
Tempo-less removal against Delvers and many Maverick targets, live with SCM on 1R, and the UWr lists can pay for it if needed. Seems like a decent option for playing towards earlier, stabler, stabilization (where they hopefully run out of dudes before you're out of removal).

[MD.Ghost]

That man has got a point too.
Speaking of SBs - what's the current agreed upon core?

2 Wrath (+1)
2 Path (+1)
2 Disenchant
3 Surgical Ex. (+1)
2 Pierce (+1/2)
1 EE

Looks right for an UW shell.

My current UWr Sideboard is:
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God

I have 3 Bolts MD (7 Pointremoval + Snapcaster) and i included 1 Academy Ruins, to support MD Equipment and Sideboard Metamorph, Crypt, Explosives. I also like, to splitt Hate to Spell and Permanent solutions, to weaken my opponent defense manoeuver. Metamorph is a flex slot, but he can handle legendary creatures like thrun and emrakul very well, so i give it a try. My meta has only a few combo decks, so i save some sideboard slots (i also play stifle maindeck:wink: )

@gutshot: Nice idea, it hits most legacy utility creatures. But its very weak vs walker and players, you also cant hit flipped delvers, stoneforge(to avoid batterskull), manlands, small equiped guys or at some level ooze and knight(if you have luck or removed the graveyard) I prefer the old Lightning Bolt. If you want to hit utility creatures, Forked Bolt can also be an option, sure it is slow sorcery speed, but if you are on the draw or an opponent drops noble+mother, its a solid answer, compared to -4 Life+Snapcaster. It also dodges spell snares, compared to fire/ice.

[anwei]

@gutshot: Nice idea, it hits most legacy utility creatures. But its very weak vs walker and players, you also cant hit flipped delvers, stoneforge(to avoid batterskull), manlands, small equiped guys or at some level ooze and knight(if you have luck or removed the graveyard) I prefer the old Lightning Bolt. If you want to hit utility creatures, Forked Bolt can also be an option, sure it is slow sorcery speed, but if you are on the draw or an opponent drops noble+mother, its a solid answer, compared to -4 Life+Snapcaster. It also dodges spell snares, compared to fire/ice.

I played a handfull of postboard games against Maverick, and it's not the wonder I was hoping for, but wasn't bad. Hierarch/Bird/Arbor aren't the most thrilling targets to trade life and a card for, but opening hands with Gut Shot + Swords on the play were wonderful.
Vs. Bolt: the tempo-free play is the ticket, when it can connect. It could play like Mental Misstep as removal against some of their dudes, even if you draw it later (unless it's Mother). Also, when I've tried bolt or lavamancer before, I've been unhappy with the mana-base strain of fetching Volcanic early, as it can leave you unstable or even cut off white. When blasts don't come in, then the only red spell in the deck doesn't require red, and EE@3 can be set up as necessary.

[MadMaximus]

Looks right for an UW shell.

My current UWr Sideboard is:
2 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wrath of God

I have 3 Bolts MD (7 Pointremoval + Snapcaster) and i included 1 Academy Ruins, to support MD Equipment and Sideboard Metamorph, Crypt, Explosives. I also like, to splitt Hate to Spell and Permanent solutions, to weaken my opponent defense manoeuver. Metamorph is a flex slot, but he can handle legendary creatures like thrun and emrakul very well, so i give it a try. My meta has only a few combo decks, so i save some sideboard slots (i also play stifle maindeck:wink: )

@gutshot: Nice idea, it hits most legacy utility creatures. But its very weak vs walker and players, you also cant hit flipped delvers, stoneforge(to avoid batterskull), manlands, small equiped guys or at some level ooze and knight(if you have luck or removed the graveyard) I prefer the old Lightning Bolt. If you want to hit utility creatures, Forked Bolt can also be an option, sure it is slow sorcery speed, but if you are on the draw or an opponent drops noble+mother, its a solid answer, compared to -4 Life+Snapcaster. It also dodges spell snares, compared to fire/ice.

Pyroblast is strictly better, because it can target any spell instead of just blue ones.
Thus, you should run Pyroblast or a Split of these when you're in fear of getting it extracted.

On the Sideboard:
I think you're mostly right on the core ...

2 - 3 Wrath Of God (Right now, 1 in the main deck should also be considered, to have "life" draws in the mid and late game, when maverick has flooded the board.

3 - 4 Blasts (If you're including the red splash)

2 Disenchant or Krosan Grip or Engineered Explosives (Not sold on the Disenchant-solution, who has gone through excessive testings with them against maverick and can tell me about it?)

2 - 4 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (Imo, the split is probably right, giving you more flexibility and strength versus combo)

3 - 4 Surgical Extractions (Such a wonderful sideboard card, you can do all kinds of shenanigans with them)

2 - 4 Path To Exile (Imo, there needs to be additional removal against maverick in the main deck, like 1-2 path or lightning bolt, because otherwise you will have use all of your swords on mothers ...)

[preddi]

I currently play:

1 Wrath of God (1Main)
3 REB/Pyroblast split
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (3 Main)
1 Elspeth
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant

With 1 Wrath, 2 EE and 1 Academy Ruins in the Main. Haven't tested it though.
Thoughts?

[matunos]

I don't understand why Pyroblast's subtle targeting differences makes it 'strictly better'. We don't run any Magical Hack effects, and Black Vice is banned, so how is that useful to us?

[klaus]

I don't understand why Pyroblast's subtle targeting differences makes it 'strictly better'. We don't run any Magical Hack effects, and Black Vice is banned, so how is that useful to us?

In fact it's worse, due to opposing Misdirections being able to redirect it to non-blue spells.
BUT Therapy/Meddling Mage etc. are more likely to name REB over Pyroblast imo.

So I guess they're about even.
Anyway, splitting them 1/2 makes sense, to minimize Extirpate impacts.

[anwei]

I don't understand why Pyroblast's subtle targeting differences makes it 'strictly better'. We don't run any Magical Hack effects, and Black Vice is banned, so how is that useful to us?

Kill phantasmal image.
Both have extreme corner case advantages. Reb also forces hive mind to target hive mind.

The real reason to prefer pyroblast is the black border.

[matunos]

The real reason to prefer pyroblast is the black border.

I believe REB is available in a somewhat more impressive black border. ;-)

[klaus]

The real reason to prefer pyroblast is the black border.
For reference :-)
http://www.eternal-central.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/REB-Playset-e1304240284772.jpeg

[Malakai]

If you have Beta REBs, you obviously play those. Otherwise, the percentages are so similar that it doesn't matter.

------------------------------

The only MU I'm concerned with right now is Maverick. The first player to figure out a 75 that beats them consistently is going to win a lot of tournaments.

Turning in a board-control deck is probably a good strategy. I'm talking in the vein of Landstill or BUG (although boarding into BUG is basically impossible). I'd be willing to board up to 10 cards for the matchup, although 8 is where I'd put the soft ceiling.

Now that they're adopting Thalia, cmc=4 cards are becoming less and less attractive. The only cmc=3 cards that I like are either black or have no lasting effect if they blow it up with Pridemage.

I also wonder if boarding into a combo could be good. Painter-Grindstone is interesting. Your goal then changes to trying to get them in a position where they can't break the combo at instant speed. It's probably bad, but worth testing in post-board games.

[matunos]

Why not board into some Cursed Totems?

[Bignasty197]

The only MU I'm concerned with right now is Maverick. The first player to figure out a 75 that beats them consistently is going to win a lot of tournaments.


I have had success with Damping Matrix and Peacekeeper. Choke is still a pain in the ass so I leave in FOW postboard.

[matunos]

I have had success with Damping Matrix and Peacekeeper. Choke is still a pain in the ass so I leave in FOW postboard.

Maverick doesn't tend to run artifacts other than Jitte do they? Why shut your own game down with Damping Matrix when you can shut theirs down with Cursed Totem for 1 less mana, and still equip your own stuff?

[Dzra]

If you're expecting any Tendrils, High Tide, or Belcher then sure, Flusterstorm instead of Spell Pierce 3 and 4 seems great. I'm on the same page as not being sold 3 and 4 are needed though since we have a better combo matchup than most already and plenty to bring in if you include Surgical Extraction.

In terms of what to hit against Reanimator, it can be tough... they can just as easily be holding a hand full of discard outlets as they are a hand full of reanimation spells. Careful Study is a good target to hit since it draws them cards and lets them discard. Entomb is tougher to hit because they'll play it at your EoT, usually early in the game. Countering it can easily leave you tapped out (or open to Daze) on their turn. They'll eventually get dudes in the yard, hopefully you've stalled them enough by then to have more answers.

I don't like Gutshot. The only situation I can think of where it'd be better than PtE/Swords is if you tap out, pass the turn, they vial in a Mother of Runes, and proceed to untap with it. However, since about every deck (aside from Death and Taxes) has dropped Vial, I don't see this being an issue. You'll almost always have a turn to untap then nuke Mom before she wakes up.

Pyroblast is generally better just because it can hit Phantasmal Image. Although, I can't think of a deck that would board Images against us. Possibly some cute mirror tech? The Hive Mind advantage to REB seems less relevant since their copy can't target your copy, so likely the Hivemind is getting destroyed either way. Not to mention that you can just as easily have out a Clique/Snapcaster/Jace as not, making it moot whether or not they must target a Blue permanent. Of course, if you have the Beta REBs then knock yourself out. If someone is playing Images, just counter it with REB and move on with life. lol

Maverick is still a tough nut to crack... I've wondered before if Aven Mindcensor would be worth trying, but that's doubtful. I think really, more than any deck tech, you just have to be flexible when playing against them. They have so many avenues of attack that it's hard to work a coherent gameplan against them. I still feel like their best line of attack against us is mana-denial. T1 Noble into T2 Wasteland + Thalia is crippling. When they follow it up with a Choke a few turns later, that's game.

I used to run 2 O-Rings, but I've since moved to 2 Disenchant and 1 O-Ring and I don't even board O-Ring in this MU anymore. It's too hard to play around Thalia + Wasteland when you're Choked out. I don't want to worry about Pridemage also.

I go back and forth between boarding out SFM and not. I can't fit SFM and Spell Snare both post-board and I tend to think that equipment is super unreliable in this MU anyways. Having an easy counter to Library, SFM, Ooze, Jitte, that one faerie, and Thalia seems good (even if it feels dumb to be holding one when they play KotR or Choke).

My current boarding plan is:
-4 SFM, -2 equipment, -1 Jace, -1 Snare
+3 PtE, +2 WoG, +2 Disenchant, +1 EE

(I've also moved to running two White fetches and a 2nd Plains over the Factories, making my only colorless lands 3 Wastelands. So far, so good. I've never liked greedy mana bases.)

Cursed Totem seems interesting and definitely worth some testing. It shuts down nearly everything in their deck. It's also nice against Elves. Finding it might be problem, so you'd have to be willing to devote enough SB slots to it as I don't think Enlightened Tutor avails us too much. My major concern is that drawing into it mid-late game when they already have a big KotR/Ooze isn't going to be as helpful as just topdecking some removal. Perhaps it's a card that we'd be willing to mull for though. Landing Cursed Totem before T4 seems like a win against Maverick. I wish it came in foil... :(

[Bignasty197]

Maverick doesn't tend to run artifacts other than Jitte do they? Why shut your own game down with Damping Matrix when you can shut theirs down with Cursed Totem for 1 less mana, and still equip your own stuff?

Matrix is for more than just the Maverick MU. Shuts down Aether Vial, Cranial Plating, Sensei's Divining Top, the entire MUD deck, Grindstone and other stuff. I never leave in SFM and equipment vs Maverick so it isn't an issue.

[matunos]

Note that Dampening Matrix can't shut down Hierarchs, Birds, or Dryad Arbor, but Cursed Totem can.

[Bignasty197]

Note that Dampening Matrix can't shut down Hierarchs, Birds, or Dryad Arbor, but Cursed Totem can.

If that is all they are doing, I am fine with that.

[Dzra]

Matrix is for more than just the Maverick MU. Shuts down Aether Vial, Cranial Plating, Sensei's Divining Top, the entire MUD deck, Grindstone and other stuff. I never leave in SFM and equipment vs Maverick so it isn't an issue.

Oh hai. Just noticed it was you. Long time no talk. lol Are you playing Stoneblade now? You should drop by Madness tomorrow, they're running Legacy at 6:30 nowadays.

But anyways... the reason I'd lean more towards Cursed Totem is because I could still run Mystics alongside it. This would let me mull more aggressively for Cursed Totem because I can always recover board position with a Batterskull (since now they can't cockblock it with Mom or Pridemage). Mulling for Damping Matrix seems risky because sure I shut down their activations, but I still need to have the removal/counters for all their dudes or else I'll just be overrun with 2/x's and stunted KotR's (which still happen to be relatively large). I can easily go down to 5 cards if it means landing Batterskull with Cursed Totem backup. All said and done, I'm not totally sold yet... but it really does seem promising.

[anwei]

I don't like Gutshot. The only situation I can think of where it'd be better than PtE/Swords is if you tap out, pass the turn, they vial in a Mother of Runes, and proceed to untap with it. However, since about every deck (aside from Death and Taxes) has dropped Vial, I don't see this being an issue. You'll almost always have a turn to untap then nuke Mom before she wakes up.


Mid-game it's much worse (another possible/rare "better" play: drop a land, tap out to play something, attack into mother - they might see you're tapped and user her to block, and then you can zap her).
Early game it doesn't set you back mana, just life, which trades its situational effect for tempo. Like Misstep or Spell Pierce. If you're on the draw and Gut Shot their mother/hierarch then pass back with land up for Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or Swords, that's quite valuable. Instead of spending your turn hoping to react to whatever they just played, you're waiting to kill whatever they're about to play, and can trade that later to actually develop your board. (Like playing t0 gutshot, t1 snare/swords, t2 mystic against an empty board)

[Dzra]

That's valid. I can see it being important to be able to hit Mom at their EoT while being on the draw and then passing with Spell Snare mana open. It is also nice in that it let's you fetch basic Island T1 instead of some possible awkward mana situations that can occur from having to Swords their early Mom, not wanting to get Wastelanded, and still being able to cast Spell Snare or Counterspell. It just seems very limited overall though. It hits Mom, that one faerie, Dryad Arbor, and Noble. Mother of Runes is far from the only threat they have against us.

[anwei]

And Mindcensor and Thalia (though that one not very well). That's 15/25 in (e.g.) Todd Anderson's 2nd place deck at Baltimore. And significantly, obviously, all the t1 drops, which is when it works best (though it's not quite mid/late game when you still need to take out Mindcensor/Thalia/Mom).
Again, in analogy to Spell Pierce or Misstep, it's a better removal spell alongside other removal spells for dealing with stuff that you need to deal with somehow (like Mom), saving your "better" removal for the heavy stuff. PtE has real drawbacks of (a) gifting them acceleration and (b) costing a mana. Against an opening hierarch/arbor, Path would use your turn to do absolutely nothing by letting them keep their acceleration; Gut Shot would save your mana/turn and set them back.

I'm not actually arguing for Gut Shot so much as trying to brainstorm about getting ahead in this match-up. Having more, faster removal (even if conditional) seems possibly good.
(In one game I played, the burn vs. exile difference was quite nice, as I cleared out all the Mothers on turn 0 with Surgical Extractions, brought in for Punishing Fire. Might not be right, but was interesting at least.)

[ivanpei]

Back to the Sideboard, this is what I'm running:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Wrath
2 Path
4 Surgical
1 Crucible
2 Disenchant

I board in Wrath, Path, Disenchant and Crucible against Maverick. That's already alot of cards. Against Storm Combo, I only have Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. Surgical might help somewhat, but I'd like 3/4 dedicated cards against storm combo. If those cards happen to hit reanimator/dredge as well, than even better.

I'm aware that Engineered Explosives is the nuts against Maverick. I'm thinking of cutting a Disenchant and a Surgical for 2 EE. Thoughts?

[Dzra]

How is Crucible for you? It always struck me as an odd card for this deck to mise, especially since everyone is boarding in Artifact hate against us as is.

Your SB seems fine. It seems your meta might have more Storm combo than mine. If I were to go to a large event tomorrow, I might grab a Flusterstorm for the inevitable Belcher douche that one always seems to encounter when they least expect it. Still though, Maverick is about the only MU that I really am unhappy to see at the moment. (thankfully there isn't much Death and Taxes around because Thalia coupled with Vials, Wastelands, and Ports makes that MU horrendous)

Certainly, the idea of being able to board into a combo seems interesting against some of these resilient midrange decks. Likely it is far too cute, but if anyone can think of a decent one, I'm all ears. The only decent combo I can think of might be boarding into Show and Tell -> Progenitus or some such silliness.

[klaus]

I'm aware that Engineered Explosives is the nuts against Maverick. I'm thinking of cutting a Disenchant and a Surgical for 2 EE. Thoughts?

I actually recommend running one EE in the MD and 1 in the SB.
You seem to be a fan of that Crucible, for me that'd be my EE swap candidate.
You could also run one maindecked Path and a Shackles like I do, allowing you to go down to 1 PtE in the SB.

For reference, here's my list:

4 SFM
4 SCM
3 Clique

1 Bskull
1 Jitte

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder -----------------------> the 61st card

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 EE
1 V. Shackles

3 Jace
1 Elspeth

4 FOW
3 Snare
2 CS

9 Fetches
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Factory
2 Waste
1 Dustbowl

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm (inspired by you)
4 Surgical Ex.
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
1 Jace
1 EE

[anwei]

I'm doing a little better against Maverick and finding the following helpful:

1. Playing a very stable manabase and fetching lots of basics early. Most real solutions which can actually turn the game around (planeswalkers, wrath, EE, Shackles, etc.) are all very mana hungry, so wasteland (especially in multiples) can leave you stranded with ineffectual solutions while you're getting beat to death.

2. Boarding in Sulfur Elemental as another "big mana" solution is fairly helpful in many cases, wiping Mom, Thalia, Mindcensor (and Lingering Souls) at split second (sometimes getting an x+1 for 1 in a combat trade), and (cutely) turns SFM into a faster clock. He might be further clogging the expensive-removal-options slots, and looks pathetically costed next to Dread of Night, but has come through several times in testing (though the G/W list I'm running against is running 9 x/1 white guys, which is higher than some).
I've got, post-board, 4 StP, 2 PtE, 2 EE, 2 WoG, 1 Shackles, and 2 Sulfur Elemental.

3. I continue to split on boarding out the SFM package or cliques and a couple counterspells. Sulfur Elemental is nice in giving another dude to attack with (if sfm comes out), and since all your guys have flash then, your counters get better.
What else are people boarding out?

[Dzra]

I like boarding out the SFM package against Maverick and I'm starting to really like Cursed Totem. Shackles really doesn't seem that reliable with 6-7 ways for Maverick to get a Pridemage.

[Malakai]

Why does no one play Humility? Maverick plays zero outs in their 75.

[matunos]

Why does no one play Humility? Maverick plays zero outs in their 75.

Humility hurts us almost as much as it does them, perhaps more, since they have more creatures (and typically, more Elspeths). It negates all of our card advantage except for Jace (no Snapcaster-flashback, no fetching equipment, no Clique or Geist effects). It's something you'd never want to see unless you already had a Batterskull or a sworded dude out in play, and you're often already winning at that point. All that, and it's 4cc means you won't get it out early, and it competes with your planeswalkers.

As an aside, I predict Maverick will start including Krosans in the SB again to combat Cursed Totem, or for the blue splashes, Trygon Predator (which wouldn't help against Humility, but would against Cursed Totem).

[Dzra]

For the most part Humility is just a slower Cursed Totem that hurts us nearly as much as anyone else. I'm not sure Cursed Totem is wide spread enough yet that Maverick is worrying about putting Krosans in the SB, but maybe.

From the Maverick perspective, running Krosan really clutters the deck up. It's untutorable, it costs a buttload with Thalia in play, and it can easily be a dead card (especially if the Stoneblade player sides out their equipment). I think it's more likely that Maverick will move to a Blue splash just for Spell Pierce (which also helps a lot vs combo) or else use Aura of Silence in their Enlightened Tutor package.

[matunos]

For the most part Humility is just a slower Cursed Totem that hurts us nearly as much as anyone else. I'm not sure Cursed Totem is wide spread enough yet that Maverick is worrying about putting Krosans in the SB, but maybe.

From the Maverick perspective, running Krosan really clutters the deck up. It's untutorable, it costs a buttload with Thalia in play, and it can easily be a dead card (especially if the Stoneblade player sides out their equipment). I think it's more likely that Maverick will move to a Blue splash just for Spell Pierce (which also helps a lot vs combo) or else use Aura of Silence in their Enlightened Tutor package.

Ah yeah I forgot about the enchantments like Aura of Silence. Tutoring into that sure is a lot slower than zenithing into a Qasali Pridemage, though.

[Dzra]

t2 EoT tutor into t3 Aura isn't much different than t3 GSZ into Pridemage (other than the color requirements being easier on GSZ). You can even use the Aura's destroy ability that turn. Pridemage has to wait until t4.

Has anyone given much thought to an Enlightened Tutor board for us? I've never much liked it, but lately my SB seems spread rather thin, so I've been thinking about it (especially in light of Cursed Totem). I'm still not sure it's worth it, but here's a rough draft.

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Oblivion Ring

Grafdigger's is redundancy against the GY decks. Ethersworn basically makes every non-dredge combo MU better. Wrath of God is pretty hard to replace. Likewise, Disenchant is useful over Aura of Silence for its ability to play around Choke better. Surgicals are still good for t0 against Dredge, additional hate for Reanimator, and still pretty decent for Storm.

The main thing I'm losing here is Path to Exile, which I might be able to make up for in that I can find both Cursed Totem and EE more reliably. I also lose Spell Pierce, but I feel that GY and Storm MUs have gotten better with Cage and Canonist, so that's perhaps a non-issue. Losing Pierce does make the mirror match that much trickier though.

It's possible that dropping an Enlightened Tutor and/or another Surgical in favor of 1-2 Pierce (or Path?) is better.

[anwei]

Has anyone given much thought to an Enlightened Tutor board for us? I've never much liked it, but lately my SB seems spread rather thin, so I've been thinking about it (especially in light of Cursed Totem). I'm still not sure it's worth it, but here's a rough draft.


I'm running:
2 E Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Cursed Totem
1 COP: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Wrath (1 MD)
1 EE (1 MD)
1 PtE (1 MD)

I run 4 FoW, 2 Snare, 2 Counterspell, 1 Spell Pierce maindeck, so when I don't want Pyroblast, I'm a bit light on counters (hoping that COP will make up for it against burn and ethersworn against storm).

I have no disenchant effects against Choke, only EE. I thought about Seal of Cleansing, with Tutor->Totem, SCM->Tutor->Seal available, but I don't think I have the space, and it's still pretty slow. If I tap out to cast something and get Choked without the Force, tutoring puts off untapping for another few turns, and I'm quite far behind at that point. Tutoring up EE isn't much worse if that's what it comes to, even though it's mana intensive. Spots are probably too tight for a couple of disenchants. I'm planning on leaving in Forces, so, that's the main out to Choke...

I should say that I was building this list for a tournament where I expected a fair amount of random, budget-friendlier decks - burn, combo, dredge. So I wanted to have strong answers for those things. This is not how I would board to be sure I could beat Maverick/Esper

[matunos]

I'm running:
2 E Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Cursed Totem
1 COP: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Wrath (1 MD)
1 EE (1 MD)
1 PtE (1 MD)

I run 4 FoW, 2 Snare, 2 Counterspell, 1 Spell Pierce maindeck, so when I don't want Pyroblast, I'm a bit light on counters (hoping that COP will make up for it against burn and ethersworn against storm).

I have no disenchant effects against Choke, only EE. I thought about Seal of Cleansing, with Tutor->Totem, SCM->Tutor->Seal available, but I don't think I have the space, and it's still pretty slow. If I tap out to cast something and get Choked without the Force, tutoring puts off untapping for another few turns, and I'm quite far behind at that point. Tutoring up EE isn't much worse if that's what it comes to, even though it's mana intensive. Spots are probably too tight for a couple of disenchants. I'm planning on leaving in Forces, so, that's the main out to Choke...

I should say that I was building this list for a tournament where I expected a fair amount of random, budget-friendlier decks - burn, combo, dredge. So I wanted to have strong answers for those things. This is not how I would board to be sure I could beat Maverick/Esper

How is Wheel of Sun & Moon for you, versus other GY hate you could tutor? I like that it's applicable against numerous GY decks (or even defensively against Painter-Stone to keep them from winning, I guess), but I don't like how it doesn't interact with cards already in the graveyard when it's cast, which seems like it could be a problem against Dredge if they've already started dredging or Reanimator, etc.

[Dzra]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sets/AVR/Temporal_Mastery.jpg

I'm not sure how this isn't broken. We definitely run some number of these... possibly 3-4.

The only downside is that after I pick up the foils, it'll probably get the ban hammer... :(

[matunos]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sets/AVR/Temporal_Mastery.jpg

I'm not sure how this isn't broken. We definitely run some number of these... possibly 3-4.

The only downside is that after I pick up the foils, it'll probably get the ban hammer... :(

It's almost like they forgot the eternal formats exist.

[klaus]

It's almost like they forgot the eternal formats exist.

So it's "Timewalk", unless it's in our initial 7 or we cantrip into it?
Nice.

[DragoFireheart]

So it's "Timewalk", unless it's in our initial 7 or we cantrip into it?
Nice.

You can use Jace or Brainstorm to shuffle it back in your deck if need be. Or cast it late game.

Ugh, wtf Wizards.

[matunos]

You can use Jace or Brainstorm to shuffle it back in your deck if need be. Or cast it late game.

Ugh, wtf Wizards.

If you're Jacing it, you're probably happy putting it back on top for your next draw (which could be a Brainstorm at opponent's EOT). Both Jace and Brainstorm are valuable for putting one you drew at an inopportune time back, but in the meantime it's a dead card in hand.

We don't want this early because we can't fully captitalize on the extra turn when we're in draw-go. We want this mid-game for added development and hopefully an added attack. Late game is win more because we typically have inevitability on our side if we've made it that far.

This card is not as bonkers as everyone thinks it is at first glance. The real Time Walk lets you hold it until its opportune to have the extra turn, and then cast it for 1U. Temporal Mastery makes you either cast it immediately on draw, or expend resources (time, spells, mana, card selection) to manipulate it into place.

Brainstorming it away when you don't want it is nice, but if youre shuffling it, that doesn't guarantee you'll draw into it when you want it. Personal Tutor into it means card disadvantage: you need to have a developed battlefield to do much useful or it's a glorified free land drop (not that a free land drop is bad). Keeping it in your top 3 with SDT for a few turns means there's a dead card on the top of your deck potentially keeping you from selecting a better card right now. And then we're talking about playing Top in a deck that doesn't usually need to (yes, some include Top in Stoneblade, but it's not typical; it may be more of a boon to a Thopter deck).

This may very well be broken, but what it's not is a replacement for Time Walk. Talk of having 4 seems silly, considering you don't generally want one in the top 1/6th of your deck. 2 or 3? Maybe, but I think it's a lot more situational than folks are thinking when they're focused on the miracle cost and not thinking through the details.

[matunos]

So it's "Timewalk", unless it's in our initial 7 or we cantrip into it?
Nice.

Initial 9-10 (depending if you're on the play or draw), since you need 1U at draw time to miracle it. But its value on turn 3 is pretty limited, considering you'll enter your main phase tapped out.

[Dzra]

It's worst if it's in your opener with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

If you have a FoW, then it's easily pitchable. No cost.

If you have a Brainstorm, you can either put it second from the top (to be used on t3) or possibly shuffled away.

If, at worst, you play it t3, it is still at almost no cost. Drop a land, play a one-drop if you have it, untap drop a fourth land. This only becomes risky against decks running Daze.

At best, you can topdeck (or set this up) for turn 4-6 when you can make better use of your extra main phase and attack phase (another Jace/Elspeth activation, untap with Mystic, etc).

Don't forget also, that if you can instantly draw it off the top at their EoT, then you can untap with two full turns.

[matunos]

It's worst if it's in your opener with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

If you have a FoW, then it's easily pitchable. No cost.

If you have a Brainstorm, you can either put it second from the top (to be used on t3) or possibly shuffled away.

If, at worst, you play it t3, it is still at almost no cost. Drop a land, play a one-drop if you have it, untap drop a fourth land. This only becomes risky against decks running Daze.

At best, you can topdeck (or set this up) for turn 4-6 when you can make better use of your extra main phase and attack phase (another Jace/Elspeth activation, untap with Mystic, etc).

Don't forget also, that if you can instantly draw it off the top at their EoT, then you can untap with two full turns.

Two full turns, but -1 card. Probably still worth it (esp as you get full mana, making a Jace drop more likely), but just pointing that out. No matter how you draw into it, you have to draw into it, meaning it could have been something else to draw.

[Marke]

Not sure if it will be banned. Fow, brainstorm and jace just make it a bit easy to set up and even if you just use it to accelerate out an jace it's incredibly good. Not a 4-of as having it in hand without fow,brainstorm or jace is a bit lousy but i can definately see it work as a 3-of.
May be more insane in some delver like list though as an active threat on the table makes it so much more potent.
Seems rather weak in blue mirrors though and against some control decks as you need to tap out when you don't want to or run top to make it active on other turns

[Cynicath]

It's worst if it's in your opener with no Brainstorm and no Force of Will.

If you have a Brainstorm, you can either put it second from the top (to be used on t3) or possibly shuffled away.



Quick question, can you crack fetches in response to the miracle trigger? Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.

[ivanpei]

Anyone still rocking the red splash? I understand the raw power of the esper version but I feel it's still extremely clunky. I'd like to fit in some grim Lavamancer because I had good experiences with it during the mental Misstep days. I like how grim can shut down Delver and sfm. Against esper blade you can shoot down whatever jitte gets equipped to everyone time they try. Of course the dissynergy with snap is there so I'm planning to play this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Spell Snare
4 Jace TMS
3 Snapcaster
3 Grim
2 Clique
4 Stp
2 Bolt
4 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
4 Scalding
4 Flooded
1 Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

I feel grim smoothes out the curve nicely. I've basically cut 2 Counterspell and a Snapcaster for the grims. I've always liked how grims are an immediately dangerous threat for 1 mana and gets plowed immediately, opening the way for SFM to stick. Counterspell has always felt like a loose slot because it's beyond clunky. I never really casted it during a time that matters. It usually gets stuck in my hand for ages because I don't have the 2 mana open. I'm always tapping out for SFM, jace or the draw step clique.

The esper versions just feel so clunky, totally tripping over itself and getting tied up and raped by Delver aggro.

[matunos]

Quick question, can you crack fetches in response to the miracle trigger? Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.

Yep, you can also cast Vendilion Clique and take their miracle away, or Stifle the trigger, or just counter the spell (unfortunately, it's going to fly right over Spell Snare), cast Silence/Chant, etc.

[klaus]

CS...

I have got the same sentiments about CS..

[SupREME-10]

I don't think that the Miracle cards are auto includes to this or any deck, as they take time to set into place, and what are you displacing to allow them to enter the deck.

Offset, has to outweigh what they remove, and an extra turn is not always a game winner (although it should certainly help).

[Malakai]

I don't think that the Miracle cards are auto includes to this or any deck, as they take time to set into place, and what are you displacing to allow them to enter the deck.

Offset, has to outweigh what they remove, and an extra turn is not always a game winner (although it should certainly help).

I can build a deck that looks a lot like RUG that will completely outclass the current DTB, and will play 4 of these. Even if they banned Brainstorm, it then goes from "I win every game" to "Mull to 6...oops I win," i.e. the reason everyone hated cascade.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

If it gets big in Legacy, play Predict or play more Spellpierce.

By now i am not really impressed, but we'll see what some wicked minds will brew.

[Malakai]

If it gets big in Legacy, play Predict or play more Spellpierce.

By now i am not really impressed, but we'll see what some wicked minds will brew.

Playing those cards is not a sufficient strategy to beat Temporal-Mastery.dec. You're going to try really hard to line up all of your cards, only to lose to Nimble Mongoose and Delver.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

'What i mean is that you shouldn't paint the sky black before you actually know how that thing really works. If it happens to be a strong card for Canadian we will have to adapt. For now i doubt that it pushes Delverdecks over the top.

[learntolove6]

Anyone still rocking the red splash? I understand the raw power of the esper version but I feel it's still extremely clunky. I'd like to fit in some grim Lavamancer because I had good experiences with it during the mental Misstep days. I like how grim can shut down Delver and sfm. Against esper blade you can shoot down whatever jitte gets equipped to everyone time they try. Of course the dissynergy with snap is there so I'm planning to play this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Spell Snare
4 Jace TMS
3 Snapcaster
3 Grim
2 Clique
4 Stp
2 Bolt
4 SFM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
4 Scalding
4 Flooded
1 Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

I feel grim smoothes out the curve nicely. I've basically cut 2 Counterspell and a Snapcaster for the grims. I've always liked how grims are an immediately dangerous threat for 1 mana and gets plowed immediately, opening the way for SFM to stick. Counterspell has always felt like a loose slot because it's beyond clunky. I never really casted it during a time that matters. It usually gets stuck in my hand for ages because I don't have the 2 mana open. I'm always tapping out for SFM, jace or the draw step clique.

The esper versions just feel so clunky, totally tripping over itself and getting tied up and raped by Delver aggro.

have you tested this version? i run red for 2 sulfur elementals and 2 red blasts side which seem like it'd be very good against the esper version (other than that im straight uw stoneblade). but after seeing your lists im tempted to run 2 lavamancers. it seems very good.

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey guys so I've been thinking of a new version for a while. LMK what you think:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
3 Force of Will
2 Preordain
1 Mana Leak

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds

Thoughts?

[klaus]

3 Force of Will

FOW is strongest when it's in your initial 7. Play four.

[catmint]

Timewalk will be very good with (SD.top), Brainstorm and Jace obv..

But even if no board presence to abuse from its still a strong topdeck early. Think about it: Late game (or in other words a lot of mana) is where stoneblade is strong. Hence even without a board presence would you play a card that reads "1U play an extra land this turn, draw a card, untap 2 target lands". It will only be bad in the opening 9: but how many games do you play without casting brainstorm, Jace or Force of will?

Will be a 2-4 in Blade control i think.

[klaus]

Will be a 2-4 in Blade control i think.

I agree. Judging from initial testing, this spell seems to solve U.controls biggest issue:
getting through the early game as unharmed as possible, while keeping the board clean.

That extra turn (+1 land +1 cantrip + untap) makes a HUGE difference.
I've found Chrome Mox to be immensely helpful for frequent turn 2 Time Walks. Though it's a rare scenario, but TM + Mox enable >turn2< Jaces..

Here's my current shell (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23531-Timewalk-Control) for reference (different archetype, but may contribute inspiration)

[learntolove6]

i'm going to jupiter games this weekend. does this list stand a chance anymore:

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge
4 Snapcaster
2 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Jace
3 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 StP
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of FaF
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mana Leak

4 Tundra
2 Volcanic
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 PLains
4 Island

SB:
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 FoW
2 Purify the Grave
2 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm



it's basically traditional uw stoneblade with the red for the sulfur and REB. I know esper stoneblade is a terrible match-up for me so i have to hate it accordingly. does anyone think this build is still relevant?

[Slime]

I've got a new list and have done quite well with it at my LGS, 3-1ing 2 consecutive events.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wrath of God
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


SB:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Energy Flux
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wrath of God
1 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce


I feel like it is time to adopt a more trump-based strategy when fighting decks designed specifically to beat us, like Maverick or other strategies which are very hard for us to deal with like Dredge. This brought me to the utilization of Enlightened Tutor

The silver bullets from the sideboard are very strong and I feel like that beteen Humility, EE and Wrath, the matchup against Maverick becomes near to even, and Dredge is very positive with Crypt plus Tutor plus Extraction.

In a lot of other matchups, the diversification of instant/sorcery based solutions with permanent base solutions is way harder to deal with, for example the Storm matchup with counterspells plus Canonist.

Thoughts?

[matunos]

I've also had some good preliminary results with an E. Tutor package. I would ditch the Humility for Cursed Totem, though. Humility nerfs all your guys, shutting down your card advantage from Tiago and preventing you from tutoring for your equipment. If nothing else, Maverick just runs more bodies than you, and more Elspeths. Teeg stops it from being cast anyway. Cursed Totem can be cast as early as Turn 2 and is a must-stop for Maverick and other decks as well (Metalworker, anyone?). Save Humility for the Thopter and Landstill decks.

[matunos]

I agree. Judging from initial testing, this spell seems to solve U.controls biggest issue:
getting through the early game as unharmed as possible, while keeping the board clean.

That extra turn (+1 land +1 cantrip + untap) makes a HUGE difference.
I've found Chrome Mox to be immensely helpful for frequent turn 2 Time Walks. Though it's a rare scenario, but TM + Mox enable >turn2< Jaces..

Here's my current shell (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23531-Timewalk-Control) for reference (different archetype, but may contribute inspiration)

I'm skeptical that you want to play accelerants like Chrome Mox just to capitalize on an early TM. I'll be happy enough with a turn 3 Jace :-). It gonna be hard enough fitting the TMs into the deck. I'm hoping Brainstorm and Jace are enough to juice TM for value. (I'm also hoping the DCI doesn't preemptively ban it in Legacy as the rumors out of PAX are saying.)

[Slime]

I've also had some good preliminary results with an E. Tutor package. I would ditch the Humility for Cursed Totem, though. Humility nerfs all your guys, shutting down your card advantage from Tiago and preventing you from tutoring for your equipment. If nothing else, Maverick just runs more bodies than you, and more Elspeths. Teeg stops it from being cast anyway. Cursed Totem can be cast as early as Turn 2 and is a must-stop for Maverick and other decks as well (Metalworker, anyone?). Save Humility for the Thopter and Landstill decks.

I've gotta disagree on this one. Humility seem terrible on paper, but in my testing it was amazing. You've got the equipment on the table as your Mystics have already resolved while you can prioritize on stopping theirs from hitting the table. Your Snapcasters flashing back swords already got you through the early game. Then, when you hit 4 mana for Humility you are pretty much closing out the game.

[matunos]

I've gotta disagree on this one. Humility seem terrible on paper, but in my testing it was amazing. You've got the equipment on the table as your Mystics have already resolved while you can prioritize on stopping theirs from hitting the table. Your Snapcasters flashing back swords already got you through the early game. Then, when you hit 4 mana for Humility you are pretty much closing out the game.

Maybe I'm doing this all wrong, but I can't think of a single game against Maverick, Bant, Zoo or Thresh, or even the mirror, in which I've been able to rush out a turn 2 SFM and have it survive long enough to cheat out a Batterskull; or in which a Qasali Pridemage didn't make an appearance. Against these decks, you might eventually cheat out a Batterskull, with your 2nd SFM, often when you have enough mana to hardcast it (but why hardcast when you can vial?). Also, Maverick and Bant don't tend to flood the field with creatures like Zoo and Thresh do; they are more likely to slow roll you, especially if they put you on a Wrath.

If you really can vial an early Batterskull *and* remove all of their threats by the time you've hit your 4th land drop, you've already won. That is not the time for Humility, it's the time for pride. The only thing you have to worry about at that point is Qasali Pridemage. Totem shuts him down just as easily as Humility, and two turns earlier (when it's relevant for that vialed Batterskull to stick). I would save the 4 drops for Wrath and planeswalkers. Totem kills most of their game, all that's left is Teeg, Thalia, Mindcensor (if they're playing it, it's being pushed out by Thalia) and Elspeth (who cares little of your Humility anyway), and hexproof guys, if any.

Unless you just want to have fun bouncing and re-playing your Batterskull to flood the field with 1/1 Germ tokens. ;-)

[preddi]

I feel like it is time to adopt a more trump-based strategy when fighting decks designed specifically to beat us, like Maverick or other strategies which are very hard for us to deal with like Dredge. This brought me to the utilization of Enlightened Tutor

The silver bullets from the sideboard are very strong and I feel like that beteen Humility, EE and Wrath, the matchup against Maverick becomes near to even, and Dredge is very positive with Crypt plus Tutor plus Extraction.

In a lot of other matchups, the diversification of instant/sorcery based solutions with permanent base solutions is way harder to deal with, for example the Storm matchup with counterspells plus Canonist.

Thoughts?

I think you are right about the silver bullets being great right now. While Humility seems bad for this deck it is actually near to 90% win against Maverick. They just can't beat you without equipment or elspeth. You just have to force their elspeth and stick your own.
But I'd like to point out that Cunning Wish is a good card to get silver bullets too. I saw several successful lists on thecouncil.es. What do you guys think of that tech? It also opens paths to beat punishing fire and dredge game 1.

[Dzra]

I'm having trouble understanding the argument for Humility over Cursed Totem. Every one of our creatures has an enter the battlefield ability. Humility doesn't let us break symmetry. Aside from SFM's second ability, Totem is like a guided nuke right at Maverick. And two turns earlier.

[SupREME-10]

I like the Enlightened Tutor and/or Cunning Wish idea as well.

I had not really considered Cursed Totem but I do own enough of them to try it out at least, and there is certainly good tech to build a toolbox in the SB with the Wish or Tutor suit to make it more efficient.

My biggest issue is always what to remove though ?

[Dzra]

A couple local tournaments this past weekend. It seems like locally at least, Maverick is on a down trend and combo is on the rise. As such, I might be dropping WoG (and/or Cursed Totems) for more combo hate. I think in addition to the bare bones of Surgical Extraction and Spell Pierce, Meddling Mage is one of the best combo hosers. Especially since it gives us up to four lines of attack against combo: countermagic, extraction, permanents, and hand disruption from Cliques. Meddling Mage is great against Dredge too as Dread Return into Flayer of the Hatebound is a serious alternative to Bridge for them. Although... I'm sorely tempted to squeeze in my two new judge foil Flusterstorms....

Also, I've been thinking some of essentially a return to the faerie build of the deck, except perhaps dropping the SFM package for 2 Jittes and Lingering Souls. Maybe running 2-3 Bitterblossom along with it. Although the current builds of Esperblade had a good showing at first, I think putting all your eggs in the Lingering Souls plan is risky when Sulfur Elemental is such a strong card against both Lingering Souls and Maverick.

But my final point is don't be bad like me... I've forgotten to remove cards from someone's library two times now with Surgical Extraction. Two different matches, two different weeks, same player, same deck. The first time I forgot to remove Merchant Scroll and proceeded to have two played against me for the loss. This past Saturday, I was so excited to nab the FoW in the yard as well as the FoW in his hand that I forgot to search his library... this one I squeezed the win, but it nearly resulted in a punt as his only out was getting a FoW off his Brainstorm to counter my FoW. ;o I will search their library. I will search their library. I will search their library.

[Ziveeman]

Hey guys, I Top 16'd the SCG: Phoenix Open. I'll get a tournament report up tomorrow night on my site. Anyway, here is my list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45479

Here is what I played against:

Round 1 - Burn - 2-0
Round 2 - ANT (Antonius on here, He Top 32'd) - 2-1
Round 3 - Maverick (Top 32) - 2-1
Round 4 - MUD - 1-2
Round 5 - Belcher (Top 16) - 0-2
Round 6 - RUG (Top 32) - 2-1
Round 7 - Sneak Show (Top 32) - 2-0
Round 8 - Dream Halls (Top 32) - 2-1

Any questions or comments, feel free to ask :)

[lavafrogg]

Grats on the finish! What is with your apparently random sideboard? Do you just trust that your cantrips will find the 1 ofs?

[Ziveeman]

My sideboard was great. I kinda like the Nassif-style sideboard (though honestly I didn't even realize how random it was until I registered the decklist). I feel the big events are diverse enough, especially Opens, where running a 4/4/4/3 style sideboard isn't correct. I played 8 different decks out of 8 rounds, and each small difference in the variation of cards can swing the percentage points in your favor. For example, even though Hydroblast was intended for the burn matchup, it was also relevant in the Dream Halls matchup (at least, it was much better than the Darkblast I sided out :P).

[Dzra]

Any questions or comments, feel free to ask :)

The only mistake I can really see from the match write up against Dream Halls was taking the False Cure. The right call was probably take the Dream Halls, especially since you had the counter for Intuition. False Cure doesn't present any sort of threat until he starts Confluxing off Dream Halls. His Intuition was likely searching up FoW to land Dream Halls with counter backup. Even without the counter for Intuition, taking the Dream Halls meant that he would have had to Intuition for Dream Halls, possibly giving you an extra draw to look for an answer.

I'm also a little confused about your SB. It looks like you had a SB ready for Intuition, but then ended up cutting Intuition and leaving the SB full of 1-ofs. I guess it worked out for you, but looking back, would you rather have had a more cohesive board or maybe the MD Intuition back?

[Ziveeman]

The only mistake I can really see from the match write up against Dream Halls was taking the False Cure. The right call was probably take the Dream Halls, especially since you had the counter for Intuition. False Cure doesn't present any sort of threat until he starts Confluxing off Dream Halls. His Intuition was likely searching up FoW to land Dream Halls with counter backup. Even without the counter for Intuition, taking the Dream Halls meant that he would have had to Intuition for Dream Halls, possibly giving you an extra draw to look for an answer.

I'm also a little confused about your SB. It looks like you had a SB ready for Intuition, but then ended up cutting Intuition and leaving the SB full of 1-ofs. I guess it worked out for you, but looking back, would you rather have had a more cohesive board or maybe the MD Intuition back?

Yeah I realized after the game that I should have taken the Dream Halls or Conflux. I guessed that False Cure was just a one of and he could have Intuitioned for the discarded combo piece anyway (since discard would leave them with 3 of each left), so by removing False Cure I effectively force him to go for Progenitus, which I could race...but not on a mull to five. It was my first time playing versus the deck (as was most people I'm assuming) so mistakes are to be had.

I did have Intuition instead of Vendilion Clique but I didn't feel like adding more mental strain on what I was assuming was going to be a mentally taxing day. I had played Zoo and RUG Delver at the other two SCG events I've been at, and those are much easier to play than Stoneblade, so I wanted to make sure I could pilot it with as few mistakes as possible.

I still liked my sideboard though. It was diverse enough for everything to get boarded in at some point, so none of the sideboard pieces felt particularly dead. With Jace, Brainstorm, and Ponder, I was going to see most of those cards anyway. I have a habit of doing this to my sideboard anyway. It's probably my aversion to giving up a match completely - I feel like I want to stand a chance in every matchup.

[Ziveeman]

For those interested, my tournament report is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23603-10th-at-SCG-Phoenix (scroll down a little till you find the decklist if you don't wanna read the chaff)

[dal9ll]

Hey everyone!

I’m a longtime lurker in this thread and I want to say how helpful this thread has been for me in designing and playing my own UW Stoneblade deck. I have a few questions on the deck:

1): Has UWx Stoneblade Control virtually replaced UWxy Landstill? The decks do function quite differently but they do run a lot of the same cards and run a similar early game, except that where Landstill will play Standstill, Stoneblade will play SFM. Is Landstill still viable in today’s Legacy? I’m a longtime Landstill player.

2): I see a lot of Stoneblade decks running a single copy of Intuition. What is it’s function and how is it useful in this deck? What are common examples of Intuition targets in different matchups?

Also here’s a decklist of mine. It’s pretty standard, I think. Eventually I’ll probably be interested in transitioning it to UWb Stoneblade or UWr Stoneblade after I become more familiar with the traditional UW build. Can I get any advice on the deck, particularly the sideboard?

4 SFM
3 Snapcaster
2 Clique
1 Giest of St. Traft

3 Jace 2.0
1 Elspeth 1.0
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Jitte

4 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
1 Intuition (?)
4 StP

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Canonist
2 O-Ring
2 Path to Exile
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Clique
1 Wrath of God

Thanks for reading! I appreciate any comments!

[Dzra]

Geist is underwhelming. You'd be better off with a 3rd Clique or a 2nd Elspeth. Some people will try telling you otherwise though. ;p

15 Blue sources is on the light side. I'd probably encourage you to drop 1-2 Mishra's (at least) to up that a bit.

Three equipment is on the high end and Batterskull is your absolute best equipment, with SoFF or Jitte following it up.

Intuition is mainly included in the Esper lists to dump a bunch of Lingering Souls into the yard, but it can also act to double your SB cards by going Taigo, Taigo, SB instant/sorcery. As such, you should probably up your WoG count since it's unlikely you'll hit 6 mana to Snap it back.

You can probably switch your Oblivion Ring count with your Disenchant count or just cut down to 1-1 or 0-2 to make room.

Three GY hate is very low, and note that none of them interact positively with Snapcaster. Surgical Extraction is probably the best, but there's a case out there for Leyline of the Void. If you never see combo (Show and Tell and Storm) but have a lot of Dredge and Reanimator, Leyline is likely better. If you think you'll see Storm, then Extraction is miles better.

Canonist isn't bad, but remember that it shuts off your own Snapcaster. As far as hatebears go that we have access to, I much prefer Meddling Mage. You'll probably catch most combo players off guard by boarding in hatebears. They don't usually expect them from us and it can turn into an easy win if they haven't boarded in their bounce.

Pulse of the Fields is interesting. Burn can be a difficult MU if you don't land a Batterskull soon enough. If you're having trouble with Burn, also look to adding more MD Spell Snares, 3-4 is pretty standard for UW builds. I don't dislike the Pierce though, as that will definitely help most of your MUs.

[matunos]

I prefer Canonist for a few reasons:
- It's tutorable, allowing you to minimize the SB slots it takes.
- It's recyclable via Academy Ruins, though that is of limited use IRL.
- The decks against which I want a Canonist out, being able to flashback my instants is less important. For instance, as long as the Canonist is in play, Storm (including High Tide) cannot win; they have to bounce or otherwise remove it first, after which my Snapcasters are usable again (but hopefully I can counter their removal). Presumably the same is true for Hive Mind and Dream Halls, but I've never played against either. Canonist isn't an instant win against the likes of Elves or Enchantress, but it slows them down a lot. Snapcasting stuff is just not a very viable plan against combo, I find.
- Combo decks are not as likely to expect hate in the form of Canonist, so there's a good chance they will not board in any removal in Game 2 (Enchantress will still have Oblivion Ring, though.)
- Some combo decks can simply play around whatever you'd name with Meddling Mage. I've lost to ANT in a chain not involving any Dark Rituals (although it's hard for them; they and/or Cabal Ritual make excellent Surgical Extraction targets if you get the chance). Elves might not be able to combo up to Emrakul if you name Glimpse of Nature, but I think they can still unload an impressive army of elves against you.

My plan against burn:
- Dzra is right to point out that the main game plan is landing a Batterskull. If you can keep a Jitte powered, that is also good. Either can keep you alive and win you the game. But don't overextend by playing both Batterskull and Jitte at the same time if you don't have to, because otherwise you'll lose both to Shattering Spree post-board.
- Play around Price of Progress by fetching basics as much as possible.
- If you need specific hate, my current preference is Aegis of Honor. Why that over something like CoP:Red? For one, it's not specific to a color, but let's face it, we're talking about red burn decks. More importantly, it can't be undermined by things like Leyline of Punishment or Everlasting Torment. And, of course, it helps kill your opponent, which seems good to me. That being said, I've never actually used it in play, because I didn't have it in my sideboard since, until recently, burn decks were not present in my local meta.
- In times of desperation, StP one of your own guys. I won a match on Monday against burn by Snapcastering in an StP and then flashing back the StP on my Snapcaster to stablize at 1 life, next turn land a Batterskull and mount a comeback. Months ago I did much the same thing by plowing one of my Mishra's Factories.
- If you want to keep the Pulse of the Fields-type card, I would go with Timely Reinforcements instead. It requires less colored mana to cast, gives you more life up front, and gives you a few guys to block/attack with. It would be costly, but theoretically possible, to flash it back with Snapcaster.
- If your meta is seriously infested with burn and ANT, then Leyline of Sanctity is an option. I think burn is pretty much dead to that. ANT can bounce it or go for the Empty the Warrens plan. But it certainly makes their life more difficult.

[matunos]

Oh, and I am a fan of Geist. He wins games. Clique dies to Gut Shot (aw, snap!).

Clique is good too, though. I wouldn't run 3, but I won't criticize someone who does.

You could definitely make room for both though, once you drop SoFI from your mainboard you actually have 4 equipment, counting Batterskull, which is overkill. You don't want to draw your equipment naturally).

[Dzra]

You can look through the thread because there's no point repeating the old Geist/Clique arguments. lol Point is, Geist is a great card. It just doesn't further our main game plan. Clique does.

Canonist might have a slight advantage over Meddling Mage when it comes to Storm, however I'd still argue for Meddling Mage's versatility. After Cliquing a Storm player, you get to see what is in their hand and what could be threatening. If they are holding a tutor, it's probably best to name the tutor so they don't have the option to search for their combo piece or their bounce. Against Canonist, they can search for the bounce and go off next turn (or maybe even that turn).

In addition, Mage is useful against Dredge. Canonist is definitely better than Mage against Elves though being able to Snap back removal is pretty relevant there also.

[matunos]

I've personally won more games thanks to Geist than Clique. *shrug* Both have made their appearances in top 8s enough that calling either strictly better in Stoneblade is foolhardy.

I'll probably play Clique more once AVR is out, at least until the dust settles over miracles, where his flash becomes much more relevant.

As for combo, if you play it right, Clique can prevent them from going off, for a turn at least, but you typically have to tap out to do it, so if you choose poorly or they can play around it, you're basically left with Force to save you (unless you're boarding Mindbreak Trap). I'd rather get a Canonist out and be able to protect her with countermagic/disruption, swinging with her in the meantime.

I see Meddling Mage as marginally more useful against Dredge, but only marginally. In that, Canonist is useless against Dredge and Mage is only slightly more useful. They have about two targets worth naming, Cabal Therapy and Dread Return. They can still go off without either.

[learntolove6]

i'm playing UWr and i seem to be having big issues with rug delver. how could i help the match-up?

[Dzra]

i'm playing UWr and i seem to be having big issues with rug delver. how could i help the match-up?

Run more basics and be sure to slow roll them. It's pretty much always the right call to take an extra 3 damage to make sure that your Swords doesn't eat a Daze. Engineered Explosives, Mishra's Factory, and Clique are your best bets to kill Mongoose. Don't board out FoW either, you need the tempo boost.

[klaus]

i'm playing UWr and i seem to be having big issues with rug delver. how could i help the match-up?

Board out some of your CMC 3/4 cards. Many games will be decided by the time you can cast a Jace with that extra Daze land.
Try to catch them with their tapped pants down so you can cast SCM and flashback your removal, circumventing Snares.

[AEnesidem]

Hello guys,

i've been playing stoneblade quite some time now, and finally my deck is almost finished.
I am looking to maybe splash a third color. Black would be the best i guess, but that is a bit too expensive for me. So i was brainstorming about red. A color splash that many players here seem to favor.
but i want to know if it's worth my investment. So far i know that having grim and bolts wll improve the mirror and the creature deck matchups. Apart from that red opens up new sideboarding possibilities like sulfur elemental and REB.
but now the question is, is it worth it to add the third color, or am i better off with just UW.

and sorry if this topic has been discussed to death.

[Einherjer]

If you ask me:

UWB is clearly the best Stoneblade.
UW is the most stable Stoneblade and second best.
UWr is a great choice in the real meta, but not good for every meta, so third.

[Dzra]

I think the UW version might the stronger right now, mainly due to the mana base. Esperblade is very strong, but the Sulfur Elemental tech has really put a damper on Lingering Souls. But to be fair, Inquisition, Perish, and Dark Blast are all really strong against Maverick.

[matunos]

I think the UW version might the stronger right now, mainly due to the mana base. Esperblade is very strong, but the Sulfur Elemental tech has really put a damper on Lingering Souls. But to be fair, Inquisition, Perish, and Dark Blast are all really strong against Maverick.

Intangible Virtue

[Blitzbold]

Esper Blade won a 130-player event in Berlin, Germany yesterday. More information to come.

[Dzra]

Frustrated. ;/ Just played a small tournament where i got cheated, although likely unintentionally. So I'm playing against Punishing Fire Maverick and the guy taps Grove and goes to return the PF, so I say in response to the trigger Surgical the PF. So in response he taps another Red and returns the PF to his hand. I tell him he can't do that, we call a judge and the judge rules in his favor. Weak... I was sure that I was correct, although I admit that I was fuzzy on exactly how I was correct. I just spoke with another judge friend of mine and basically you only have one chance to return the Punishing Fire unless there are multiple Groves to trigger the PF return to hand trigger multiple times. Long story short, don't let people screw you with PF shenanigans.

New subject... has anyone dropped additional spot removal from the board? For a while I ran with 4 Path to Exile, then I cut to 2, but I think I'm going to cut it all together. Generally the 4 Swords is enough and when it's not, I'd rather have more sweepers instead of more spot removal. This puts my board like so...

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives

I think that Cursed Totem is just better against the MUs where I'd most want additional spot removal: Elves and Maverick. I would rather run Meddling Mage over Flusterstorm, but Flusterstorm is also pretty decent against Burn/UR Delver.

[AEnesidem]

Frustrated. ;/ Just played a small tournament where i got cheated, although likely unintentionally. So I'm playing against Punishing Fire Maverick and the guy taps Grove and goes to return the PF, so I say in response to the trigger Surgical the PF. So in response he taps another Red and returns the PF to his hand. I tell him he can't do that, we call a judge and the judge rules in his favor. Weak... I was sure that I was correct, although I admit that I was fuzzy on exactly how I was correct. I just spoke with another judge friend of mine and basically you only have one chance to return the Punishing Fire unless there are multiple Groves to trigger the PF return to hand trigger multiple times. Long story short, don't let people screw you with PF shenanigans.

New subject... has anyone dropped additional spot removal from the board? For a while I ran with 4 Path to Exile, then I cut to 2, but I think I'm going to cut it all together. Generally the 4 Swords is enough and when it's not, I'd rather have more sweepers instead of more spot removal. This puts my board like so...

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives

I think that Cursed Totem is just better against the MUs where I'd most want additional spot removal: Elves and Maverick. I would rather run Meddling Mage over Flusterstorm, but Flusterstorm is also pretty decent against Burn/UR Delver.

I agree with the spot removal. I ran 3 in the board, never really felt like i needed them, went down to one and finally cut it for engineered explosives.
my sideboard is exactly the same as your actually except that the cursed totems are grafdigger's cages in mine. Since there is a lot of dredge here and grafdigger's cage shuts down zenith which has proven handy against maverick. (and i didn't have access to totem)

i've got to try out totem, it seems really strong against maverick. Although, cage worked surprisingly well and is better against dredge which i fear.

[Dzra]

I haven't had too much trouble against Dredge. I bring in the Spell Pierce, but I'm thinking of bringing in Flusterstorm also now that I'm missing the Paths.

[matunos]

Frustrated. ;/ Just played a small tournament where i got cheated, although likely unintentionally. So I'm playing against Punishing Fire Maverick and the guy taps Grove and goes to return the PF, so I say in response to the trigger Surgical the PF. So in response he taps another Red and returns the PF to his hand. I tell him he can't do that, we call a judge and the judge rules in his favor. Weak... I was sure that I was correct, although I admit that I was fuzzy on exactly how I was correct. I just spoke with another judge friend of mine and basically you only have one chance to return the Punishing Fire unless there are multiple Groves to trigger the PF return to hand trigger multiple times. Long story short, don't let people screw you with PF shenanigans.


You are correct. The ability to return PF is not a static ability, it's a triggered ability. He can't pay R to return it until the trigger resolves, so if you extract it while the trigger is on the stack, it's gone unless he has another way to make you gain life.

[Raggedjoe]

Hey guys, I wanted to share my recent thoughts on BW lists. I have a couple interesting pierces of tech to discuss:

4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Cabal Therapy
3 IoK
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
4 Lingering Souls

4 Bitterblossom
3 Intangible Virtue

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdent Catacombs
2 Urborg

Sideboard:
3 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Perish
1 Darkblast
2 Cursed Totem
3 Tomord's Crypt
2 Disenchant
2 ???

Virtue is crazy. It completely destroys Delver and gives us much more versatility. Plus it and Jitte just own. Virtue really beats Zealous too. Better mana cost, multiple uses, and better effect IMO.

Verdict has amazing power vs Burn and UR Delver, buying you two more spells to kill you.

I really didn't miss Bob... He isn't that nessissary anymore. Plus my average CMC is ~2

[matunos]

Hey guys, I wanted to share my recent thoughts on BW lists. I have a couple interesting pierces of tech to discuss:
[...]


This doesn't belong under Blade Control. I think you want Deadguy Ale over here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2597-Deck-Deadguy-Ale-(B-w-Confidant)

[Dzra]

What do people think of Entreat the Angels?

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Entreat-the-Angels-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler.jpg

I keep going back and forth on how good Temporal Mastery will be in this deck, but Entreat the Angels definitely seems interesting. On the surface, it looks like it has a lot of power as both a stabilizer and a finisher. It might be worth testing in place of Elspeth. Although... if Entreat ever becomes popular, a fairly accessible answer to it would be Echoing Truth (though it thankfully is 2 cmc).

Another card I'm looking really hard at is Terminus.

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Terminus-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler-1.jpg

It definitely has a lot going for it compared to WoG. A board wipe for W is pretty compelling, not to mention being able to wipe the board at instant speed (although set-up would likely be required). It's perhaps not the best against Maverick since their GSZ go back into their deck also, so they would likely be able to keep up the pressure fairly well. At 1 cmc for the miracle, it might be boardable against Dredge also.

[matunos]

Entreat the Angels doesn't excite me too much. Sure, it can be a great finisher, but not if you topdeck it too early. The WW requirement could bite you. Engineered Explosives is also an answer to it, and a more likely one to run in Stoneblade.

Terminus seems like a good sweeper. The downside in Esper is that the benefit of Lingering Souls is dropping a bunch of tokens on the field. Terminus on tokens is pretty much a Wrath of God that doesn't actually kill creatures (e.g. you won't be exiling any Bridges from Below). If you have LS in hand or in the yard, then a Terminus for miracle is fantastic, because you can quickly recover. But since you have less control over when you can use the miracle, you might just be stuck with a brick for a while, even moreso than if it were Temporal Mastery. Mainly I'm just not sure there's space for it. Maybe instead of a Wrath or Explosives? I'm skeptical.

The downside of the miracles is, of course, the variance. With Brainstorm you can control that to some extent, but I think it's still a frustration.

The nice thing about Temporal Mastery is that it can be useful, or at worst, neutral, for not much investment at almost any time you see it after your initial 9. On the other hand, it's not as likely to turn a game completely around for you as a well-timed Entreat or Terminus would.

[SupREME-10]

Entreat the Angels doesn't excite me too much. Sure, it can be a great finisher, but not if you topdeck it too early. The WW requirement could bite you. Engineered Explosives is also an answer to it, and a more likely one to run in Stoneblade.

Terminus seems like a good sweeper. The downside in Esper is that the benefit of Lingering Souls is dropping a bunch of tokens on the field. Terminus on tokens is pretty much a Wrath of God that doesn't actually kill creatures (e.g. you won't be exiling any Bridges from Below). If you have LS in hand or in the yard, then a Terminus for miracle is fantastic, because you can quickly recover. But since you have less control over when you can use the miracle, you might just be stuck with a brick for a while, even moreso than if it were Temporal Mastery. Mainly I'm just not sure there's space for it. Maybe instead of a Wrath or Explosives? I'm skeptical.

The downside of the miracles is, of course, the variance. With Brainstorm you can control that to some extent, but I think it's still a frustration.

The nice thing about Temporal Mastery is that it can be useful, or at worst, neutral, for not much investment at almost any time you see it after your initial 9. On the other hand, it's not as likely to turn a game completely around for you as a well-timed Entreat or Terminus would.

Quoted for truth, well said too.

I am a fan Terminus though as I hate facing tokens and can make more with my Elpeth.

[civet five]

Decree of Justice doesn't cut it now, and I'm not sure that Entreat the Angels is better enough to make the cut either.