[DTB] Blade Control

[Dzra]

What do people think of the Surgical Extraction + Wasteland plan against RUG? Their mana base is very reliant on Tropical and Volcanic Islands. Even if we don't see a Wasteland, SEing their Wastes, counters, or their small number of threats could also be valuable.

[matunos]

What do people think of the Surgical Extraction + Wasteland plan against RUG? Their mana base is very reliant on Tropical and Volcanic Islands. Even if we don't see a Wasteland, SEing their Wastes, counters, or their small number of threats could also be valuable.

It could work, but you're taking a risk. RUG only needs 1-2 lands to be dangerous, whereas you need more. Land denial often comes back to haunt me when I try it in Stoneblade. There's only two times I remember it winning a game for me: against Reanimator (had 1 land out and Brainstormed/Pondered like 3 times in a row, and Enchantress (T1 Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl on a dual land [which Enchantress never does], so I 2-for-1'd him and he conceded a turn or two later).

As long as you have some other lands handy, though, or at least a Brainstorm, I'd say go for it if it's early enough to deny them a color.

[Dzra]

It could work, but you're taking a risk. RUG only needs 1-2 lands to be dangerous, whereas you need more. Land denial often comes back to haunt me when I try it in Stoneblade.

Yeah, most every time I've tried a land denial plan, it's gone south. I'm thinking RUG might be the exception if you can Wasteland + Surgical early enough. If you hit it early enough to cut them off a color then great, if not then you can save your Wastelands and point your Surgicals elsewhere.

Off the top of my head, maybe something like...

-4 Spell Snare, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Wrath of God, +1 Engineered Explosives

[matunos]

Yeah, most every time I've tried a land denial plan, it's gone south. I'm thinking RUG might be the exception if you can Wasteland + Surgical early enough. If you hit it early enough to cut them off a color then great, if not then you can save your Wastelands and point your Surgicals elsewhere.

Off the top of my head, maybe something like...

-4 Spell Snare, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Wrath of God, +1 Engineered Explosives

WoG seems pretty slow against RUG, especially with Daze and Spell Pierce. EE and Path to Exile seem better.

[Dzra]

WoG seems pretty slow against RUG, especially with Daze and Spell Pierce. EE and Path to Exile seem better.

Yeah, I might run PtE over it except I dropped it from my board. WoG works fine for the most part. I should be able to slow them down enough to hit 5 mana. I'd rather be waiting to WoG than have extra spot removal when facing down 1-2 Mongoose. Terminus might really shine here by being able to play around Daze/Spell Pierce pretty easily.

[learntolove6]

I like replacing 2 StP with 2 PtE, but not bringing any extra in. It's the worst feeling when you're sitting on two Path effects in your opener and they drop even one Mongoose. It's the worst. I like WoG because, as Dzra mentioned, you can slow them down enough to get them.

When I play this match-up, I snap Spell Pierce every Brainstorm they play. What do people think of that? My theory is that they play so many situational cards late game that if they can't fix up their hand, you will be more likely to pull through.

[klaus]

I like replacing 2 StP with 2 PtE, but not bringing any extra in. It's the worst feeling when you're sitting on two Path effects in your opener and they drop even one Mongoose. It's the worst. I like WoG because, as Dzra mentioned, you can slow them down enough to get them.

When I play this match-up, I snap Spell Pierce every Brainstorm they play. What do people think of that? My theory is that they play so many situational cards late game that if they can't fix up their hand, you will be more likely to pull through.

Valid train of thought. I'd counter (even FOW) every BS they play with a fetch land out, but then again I tend to do that against most opponents in most scenarios.

[matunos]

Valid train of thought. I'd counter (even FOW) every BS they play with a fetch land out, but then again I tend to do that against most opponents in most scenarios.

Countering a Brainstorm is sketchy enough, but FoW (assuming you mean with the alternate cost)? That's cutting your nose off to spite your face. You're going to 2:1 yourself to stop a card quality spell? I wouldn't even do that against combo.

FoW is an insurance plan to stop opponents' bombs, or protect your own, it's not a card you want to use willy nilly. Save the Force for their business.

On the other hand, I have been known to Surgically Extract a Brainstorm or 4. Usually against combo. Against RUG, I don't think I would. They're not *that* reliant on card selection.

[klaus]

Countering a Brainstorm is sketchy enough, but FoW (assuming you mean with the alternate cost)? That's cutting your nose off to spite your face. You're going to 2:1 yourself to stop a card quality spell? I wouldn't even do that against combo.

FoW is an insurance plan to stop opponents' bombs, or protect your own, it's not a card you want to use willy nilly. Save the Force for their business.

On the other hand, I have been known to Surgically Extract a Brainstorm or 4. Usually against combo. Against RUG, I don't think I would. They're not *that* reliant on card selection.

Alright: I exaggerated a bit, to make a stronger point, but if you've played with BS since Onslaught, you'd agree that tons of Brainstorms with a fetch out have saved your butt. BS+fetch is one of the strongest plays blue decks out there have no matter whether we're talking early-, mid-, or late-game. Hell, some decks splash blue solely to be able to run that card, and rightfully so.

[AEnesidem]

Alright: I exaggerated a bit, to make a stronger point, but if you've played with BS since Onslaught, you'd agree that tons of Brainstorms with a fetch out have saved your butt. BS+fetch is one of the strongest plays blue decks out there have no matter whether we're talking early-, mid-, or late-game. Hell, some decks splash blue solely to be able to run that card, and rightfully so.

well i agree, it doesn't happen often, but when i'm in a good position and i feel the opponent really needs that brainstorm to resolve i vould waste a fow on that. 90% of the time it sealed the deal. But its only in some situations

[learntolove6]

Another question: What do people think about Mirran Crusader instead of Geist of Saint Traft in straight UW Stoneblade. He can be targeted, yes, however, consider the fact that he can block Nimble Mongoose all day and get through all of Maverick's defenses. In addition, Geist is outclassed by Esper by Lingering Souls. You go T3 Geist, they Lingering Souls and suddenly you can't attack anymore. Crusader completely avoids that. His clock is slower, but he wears a Jit better.

In theory, he sounds very strong, but you need to protect him. Geist protects himself from Bolts and Plows, but Crusader doesn't, but could these upsides be enough of a reason to run him?

[MD.Ghost]

@Crusader vs Geist, i say Geist is better, he is immun to RUGs Removal, and they run enough to hit a crusader if needed. And Maverick still plays White, a Mom can block a Crusader very easy, or even Thalia can be a 1:1. Sure, both can try to handle a Ghost, but as a controlplayer you haven´t worried about additional removal/combat tricks.
Souls - the can make 4 Tokens with 1 Spell to counter your Crusader and break a stall with an equiped jitte and a simple flying spirit.

[Dzra]

Clique is still better than either of them and if you're looking to race through Lingering Souls, Batterskull already does an amazing job. A Pro-White creature would be better against Maverick since that would leave them with their 2-3 Ooze and possibly Scryb Ranger or Thrun as blockers.

[matunos]

Has anyone given thought to Silverblade Paladin?

Even with spot removal, it could put an opponent in a bind if you drop him onto the field while you have an eligible attacker already Jitted up. Do they remove the Jitted guy or the Silverblade? If Silverblade, the Jitted dude gets through, but if the Jitted dude, with LS, you have a good chance to reestablish soulbond quickly.

[TkDodo]

Has anyone given thought to Silverblade Paladin?

Even with spot removal, it could put an opponent in a bind if you drop him onto the field while you have an eligible attacker already Jitted up. Do they remove the Jitted guy or the Silverblade? If Silverblade, the Jitted dude gets through, but if the Jitted dude, with LS, you have a good chance to reestablish soulbond quickly.

Seriously, consider the creature on its own against the top decks. A 2/2 for 1WW. That's a lousy topdeck, bad against RUG tempo because it is in bolt range, all their guys beat it, AND we need WW to cast it and play around dazes. Against Maverick, it doesn't do anything, their guys are better, and we are always looking to wrath the board anyway in order to survive. We need something to stabilize or with utility, not something that races them in arbitrary scenarios. Against the mirror, LS or Batterskull is always better. Against combo? Again, it doesn't do anything, and you never want to tap out for a 2/2 against them... I don't even know why I give such a detailed description. Scenarios starting with "If I have a Jitte and 2 creatures out ..." is almost always self-explanatory

[matunos]

Seriously, consider the creature on its own against the top decks. A 2/2 for 1WW. That's a lousy topdeck, bad against RUG tempo because it is in bolt range, all their guys beat it, AND we need WW to cast it and play around dazes. Against Maverick, it doesn't do anything, their guys are better, and we are always looking to wrath the board anyway in order to survive. We need something to stabilize or with utility, not something that races them in arbitrary scenarios. Against the mirror, LS or Batterskull is always better. Against combo? Again, it doesn't do anything, and you never want to tap out for a 2/2 against them... I don't even know why I give such a detailed description. Scenarios starting with "If I have a Jitte and 2 creatures out ..." is almost always self-explanatory

You're probably correct overall. I don't think it's fair to only consider a creature by itself, especially considering one with soulbond, since the whole point of the ability is to interact with other creatures. This line of reasoning would render one to consider Mother of Runes little more than a cheap Wall of Shadows. I don't think my example scenario is too far out of question, but yeah, it may just be too cute to be good. (However, I'm still a fan of Geist, and he often requires some sort of support, such as a sword, a pre-charged Jitte, Karakas, etc. to utilize; although against most combo he's just a good clock).

It may certainly be the case, however, that either Silverblade is just not good enough in general, or that Stoneblade in particular can't provide the creature support that would capitalize on it. I certainly don't think a non-token generating Stoneblade could do it.

[ivanpei]

After testing a fair bit, I think the miracle cards don't fit this deck. Temporal is me because we don't have a clock like Delver to abuse it. Terminus is too situational. If you draw it at the wrong time, its dead without brainstorm. Entreat I'd a lategame only card, which we are always good at.

The only change I've made is to play 3 maindeck spell pierce. I cut a snare and the 2 Counterspell for the pierces. IMO piercing branstorms/temporal will be key in a number of matchups. Anyway I've been unhappy with Counterspell for a while, does too little too late. And multiple snares sometimes sucks balls.

[Dzra]

I think Terminus shows the most potential out of the miracles. Although I'm still undecided if it's better than Wrath. Obviously the problem is not being able to miracle it, but between Brainstorm, Taigo, and Jace I think we should be able to set it up by the time we want to use it.

I don't think I'd drop Counterspell either. Spell Pierce is great, but hitting KotR and Mongoose is very relevant. I board in Spell Pierce a lot, but I can't think of many MU's where I'd board out Counterspell (especially the ones where Pierce is good).

[AEnesidem]

I think Terminus shows the most potential out of the miracles. Although I'm still undecided if it's better than Wrath. Obviously the problem is not being able to miracle it, but between Brainstorm, Taigo, and Jace I think we should be able to set it up by the time we want to use it.

I don't think I'd drop Counterspell either. Spell Pierce is great, but hitting KotR and Mongoose is very relevant. I board in Spell Pierce a lot, but I can't think of many MU's where I'd board out Counterspell (especially the ones where Pierce is good).

yesterday i played a UW stoneblade list with terminus at my LGS. Went 3-1-0. drew against burn, but probably would have won if i had played better, i made some mistakes in that game.

i like terminus, and from what i've seen from the card till now i love it more than wrath. Why? well because from all the miracles i think it's the one that has a minimum of bad moments to flip it. Till now the only bad moment to flip it was when i was in a winning position and i didn't want my creatures on the field to go away. Otherwise the card has always been a 1 for 1 or better. The card can vary from a swords to plowshares to a wrath of god. But it will always do something useful. And with only 2 in the deck you rarely open a hand with it and when you do it often isn't that bad because you can set it up with a brainstorm or jace later on.


i think the card is very powerful, everytime i flipped it i could follow it up with jace or another threat which completely turned the game in my favor. It needs more extensive testing though.

[learntolove6]

yesterday i played a UW stoneblade list with terminus at my LGS. Went 3-1-0. drew against burn, but probably would have won if i had played better, i made some mistakes in that game.

i like terminus, and from what i've seen from the card till now i love it more than wrath. Why? well because from all the miracles i think it's the one that has a minimum of bad moments to flip it. Till now the only bad moment to flip it was when i was in a winning position and i didn't want my creatures on the field to go away. Otherwise the card has always been a 1 for 1 or better. The card can vary from a swords to plowshares to a wrath of god. But it will always do something useful. And with only 2 in the deck you rarely open a hand with it and when you do it often isn't that bad because you can set it up with a brainstorm or jace later on.


i think the card is very powerful, everytime i flipped it i could follow it up with jace or another threat which completely turned the game in my favor. It needs more extensive testing though.

can i ask if they were MD or SB?

[AEnesidem]

can i ask if they were MD or SB?

I played them mainboard because i wanted to test them, and there was quite some aggro in the meta.

today at a bigger tournament i performed poorly with the deck, just not to say i did terrible. I ended up only boarding them in against goblins and some deck i can't recall.
It is a blowout everytime you resolve it, and otherwise it's just a 2 for 1 removal spell or better. Sometimes the time and brainstorms wasted on setting up terminus can be ennoying though.

[Handle]

Another question: What do people think about Mirran Crusader instead of Geist of Saint Traft in straight UW Stoneblade. He can be targeted, yes, however, consider the fact that he can block Nimble Mongoose all day and get through all of Maverick's defenses. In addition, Geist is outclassed by Esper by Lingering Souls. You go T3 Geist, they Lingering Souls and suddenly you can't attack anymore. Crusader completely avoids that. His clock is slower, but he wears a Jit better.

In theory, he sounds very strong, but you need to protect him. Geist protects himself from Bolts and Plows, but Crusader doesn't, but could these upsides be enough of a reason to run him?

I play Mirran Crusader over Lingering Souls in esper and its been great for me. I felt Geist wasn't good enough on defense and crusader's pro green was very strong in some of the bad match-ups. I tried realy hard to like Lingering Souls and sometimes i did but offten it was just a fog effect. Jitte is easy to find in stoneblade and on Crusader it owns the bord.

[Handle]

Another question: What do people think about Mirran Crusader instead of Geist of Saint Traft in straight UW Stoneblade. He can be targeted, yes, however, consider the fact that he can block Nimble Mongoose all day and get through all of Maverick's defenses. In addition, Geist is outclassed by Esper by Lingering Souls. You go T3 Geist, they Lingering Souls and suddenly you can't attack anymore. Crusader completely avoids that. His clock is slower, but he wears a Jit better.

In theory, he sounds very strong, but you need to protect him. Geist protects himself from Bolts and Plows, but Crusader doesn't, but could these upsides be enough of a reason to run him?

I play Mirran Crusader over Lingering Souls in esper and its been great for me. I felt Geist wasn't good enough on defense and crusader's pro green was very strong in some of the bad match-ups. I tried realy hard to like Lingering Souls and sometimes i did but offten it was just a fog effect. Jitte is easy to find in stoneblade and on Crusader it owns the bord.

[Dzra]

Stoneblade is starting to put up worse and worse results. I feel like the Black splash was a good meta-call for a while, but I feel like it's a trap in an environment filled with so many mana denial strategies (Maverick, Aggro Loam, and RUG).

[SupREME-10]

I agree that splashing into b is actually slowing the deck down and offering opponents too much time in many situations.

I have reverted back to U/W and will see how that goes for a while again.

Geist has been a nice addition though, and I am hoping to see if Entreats/Terminus works out to possibly replace WoG in one-two slots of the SB.

Cheers

[Tinefol]

Splashing into black doesn't slow the deck down - it just naturally isn't fast. Lingering Souls are quite awesome though.

Personally I've just adopted to run Delver/Daze/Wasteland, which does work wonders.

[preddi]

I don't like the black splash at all. Splashing for Discard seems fine to me but Lingering Souls feels not got enough, but this is just my personal experience with it. Sure it can win games when you connect with jitte, but the opponent has many ways to interrupt you with that.
I'd like to post my list that won me a ~45 Player tournament three weeks ago:

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Island

Sideboard
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wrath of God


I will admit this seems a little bit random with this many 3offs. It was due to testing measures. In retrospect would increase Snapcaster, Visions, Bolt to 4 and Decrease some Geists and move an Elspeth to the board.
This deck has some advantages over creature heavy decks and Controlish decks like NicFit, but lacks maindeck answers to combo. This seems fine in the current meta. The deck forces the trade with the opponent and wins through resolving a Visions or another Bomb like a Jace.
Just for reference: I won against Protean Hulk Combo 2-0, Nic Fit 2-0, Reanimator 2-0, Supreme Blue 2-0, Mud 2-1 and lost to Esperblade 0-2.
As some may be aware of this list was adapted from the russian national championships. I tried it becaurse i really like Ancestral Vision in this deck. I think the card is well positioned right now as many matchups turn into grindy games (Maverick, RUG, mirror and other control ish decks like nic fit).
If i would play a tournament right now i would choose this kind of list or a straight up UW List with a solid manabase. I really dislike the Esper manabase, because you are forced to fetch duals to cast your spells properly. This in combination with just 22 Lands is really greedy and asks for punishment.
The next thing is trying to fit Terminus in this deck (for Wrath and EE). Unfortunately my copies aren't there yet. Is the general consensus that this card deserves the slot or is Wrath more consistent?
-preddi

[Arsenal]

This talk about the pros/cons of splashes reminds of the the old Cawblade discussions (back in Standard) with the UWr/UWb/UW builds and the pros/cons of each (UWx more vulnerable to Tectonic Edge blowouts, but it offers more utility/removal, etc).

[Dzra]

This talk about the pros/cons of splashes reminds of the the old Cawblade discussions (back in Standard) with the UWr/UWb/UW builds and the pros/cons of each (UWx more vulnerable to Tectonic Edge blowouts, but it offers more utility/removal, etc).

Exactly. Each splash adds a lot of power and utility and for a while it gets a jump on the meta, but in the end UW is still the most consistent.

Also, despite how much I like the card, I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Vision because of how bad it feels on the draw when I need that Snare mana up.

[matunos]

I'm not sure why anyone would think the black splash slows things down. If anything, it speeds it up. In my experience, you're much more on curve than UW, which has to hold open mana for counter magic and removal. T1 helps you T2 into Stoneforge (or know not to, depending on what's left in the opponent's hand), or T1 Ponder helps you fix your hand. Lingering Souls is very powerful unless your opponent has a sweeper, which for most matchups is only available in the form of EE or post-board hate, and it's relatively expendable. Counter my LS? Okay, I'll flash it back. Counter it again? Okay, now you can't counter my Stoneforge.

The tradeoff with early discard that I've found is that while you're still (generally) 1:1-ing the opponent, it doesn't nullify their tempo like counter magic does. Then again, relying on Spell Snare makes you miss a lot of the dangerous one-drops (e.g. Delver, Mongoose) anyway. Bringing in Pierces post-board, it may be more correct to sit on an Island T1 so you can pierce them, and worry about discard later.

It's true that it makes you more vulnerable to land destruction. If you're going off of Martell's list, 22 lands is about 2 lighter than the norm for U/W. However, I have found the Ponders helpful, and I don't know that I've had less luck with mana overall than with U/W. The main thing I've lost out on is Mishras and Wastelands. Even when playing Wastelands, however, I found myself usually keeping them cause I needed the mana. The Vindicate can help in dire situations, if I can find it, of course.

[Dzra]

The best Black splash I can think of would be something like 3-4 Lingering Souls, 2 IoK, 1 Thoughtseize, and 1 Vindicate. It definitely adds a lot of power. You're losing most of your Spell Snares, maybe a Taigo or two, a Clique or two, and Elspeth. Maybe a fair trade, maybe not.

Spell Snare might not touch one drops, but targeted discard doesn't help that much either except when you are on the play (and you are not necessarily going to ever be on the play in a match). Your best answers to Mongoose are Lingering Souls, Clique, Jitte, and Batterskull. You have less Cliques and post-board Lingering Souls is unreliable. That leaves you right back where you were without the Black splash. The difference is that now you're compromising your mana base.

RUG has Wasteland, Stifle, Spell Pierce, and Daze. Running more basics makes Wasteland and Stifle unreliable, which in turn make Spell Pierce and Daze worse. By opening yourself up more to Wasteland and Stifle, you are turning on another 6-7 cards in their deck.

Maverick operates similarly. KotR into Wasteland or just naturally drawn Wastelands turn on Thalia and Choke. Nobles and GSZ/Arbor makes it so that they aren't getting behind while they are Wasting you. Without Wasteland to turn her on, Thalia is just good, not backbreaking.

Running a mana base like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Or even this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Is still far, far greedier than something like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Wasteland eats the first mana base alive. Even though the second mana base has quite a few basics, a well aimed Stifle can easily cut you off a color.

Sulfur Elemental takes away the inevitability of Lingering Souls, so you must rely on the inevitability of your mana base. I will eventually get enough basics to make a good 10-14 cards of RUG's dead and I will drop a threat like Batterskull, SoFF, or Elspeth that they cannot answer with their conditional counters.

[lordofthepit]

I think the risk of destabilizing your manabase in the RUG matchup is occasionally problematic, but discard and Lingering Souls are still better than Spell Snare and Vendilion Clique in that matchup (which are terrible). Perish is pretty strong here too, but probably not better than Path to Exile, as long as you can handle Mongoose. I'd say adding black doesn't really hurt or benefit your matchup against RUG.

Against Maverick, it's a whole different story. The black splash makes this matchup approximately a million times easier. :cool:

[ivanpei]

I've been playing pierce for a while in the MD and it's fantastic. It's much easier to cast compared to Counterspell and is very relevant earlier in the game. It busts combo like a rockstar, especially decks with daze. Being 1 mana cheaper makes all the difference.

Also, it's alot easier to snapcaster back, or to keep 1 mana and a piece open to protect your sfm/jace. On the splash or no splash topic, I've always found straight uw the best and most stable. The black. Splash was best in the mirror because preboard, dealing with lingering souls is very hard. However the weakness to wastelands is a huge problem.

Also I've been running a full set of 4 wastes, mainly to give pierce more mileage and to stop cavern of souls. I usually just stomp on tribal with equipment, but I've been having problems with caverns lately. Uncounterable lackeys/stingscourger are a huge problem. Also wastelands are never bad, I've found them alot more useful than mishra's.

Edit: Also anyone feel a little disappointed by Elspeth? I've found her quite underpowered in this deck. We're not very aggro, so winning damage races isn't a factor. Delvers can ignore her and maverick doesn't really care too much about her. I've found that she is really only great against opposing jaces. Maybe try 1 copy of entreat in her place? I find that entreat is a miracle card worth setting up. If you miracle it with 4/5 mana, it will usually win you the game. I'm trying to make space for 1/2 copies in the md/board.

Perhaps a little too narrow in the MD, but 1 copy in the board when you are shifting to. The non-Stoneforge plan seems good. I'll cut my 4th jace for it.

[matunos]

The problem with Peirce vs Counterspell/Leak is that Peirce can't counter creatures, and there's some creatures you can't always rely on removal for; and other than 1-drop creatures, what more are you afraid of enough to give up the hard counter? You can still Snare the scariest play, Chalice@1.

Anyway, the UW arguments above make sense and all- I think this thread has gone through enough debates about mana base stability, and we a recognize that there is a tradeoff going one way or the other. But if we're making our arguments based on large tourney top8s, I'll just point out that UW Stoneblade hasn't exactly been topping the charts.

I think a more fruitful discussion/debate can be had by discussing particular matchups. Most of us aren't in the top 32 of weekly SCG Opens (much less with byes that let us sneak past all the tier-N decks); we're in local metas with their own characters.

With that in mind, some observations of mine:

Esper may be worse off than UW against Pernicious Jace/BUG Control, thanks to their Pernicious Deed and land destruction suite.

OTOH, I think Esper has a distinct advantage against Maverick (compared to UW, that is), mainly thanks to discard being stronger in this case than counters and removal, plus Perish.

Discard vs Thresh is not terrible, but it's not great; I'd rely more on the tokens for this, and try not to overextend after Game 1 due to Sulfur Elemental.

I think Combo is a mixed bag and depends on the combo. I found discard and LS effective against Sneak Show, but I also was playing an inexperienced player, and SS hasn't been a presence in my weekly tournies. Reanimator is tougher, I think, because in this case the counter magic is more effective; but I don't think UW had a great time against Reanimator until game 2 anyway, and postboard is often a grind no matter what. I've had better luck against High Tide, although this typically hinges on pressure from Batterskull; the proactive discard effects are stronger here than counters, because they can out-counter you when they're going off (thanks in part to Pact of Negation); discard makes them drop cards before they're in that position. I haven't played TES since I went Esper, so I can't comment on that from experience.

[matunos]

Oh, and I agree with ivanpei that Elspeth is lackluster against decks like Delver, especially if you're relying on her to make tokens. She's much better when you can use her +3/+3 (and still keep her alive on the counter assault). She's best at helping you break through grinding matches (maybe good against BUG?), not dealing with fast threats.

[ivanpei]

I feel that entreat can be the lingering souls replacement uw has been looking for. It's not dependant on Jitte, doesn't need the black splash, doesn't need alot of slots or deck changes. It just straight up wins the game when it lands. Against Aggro, control etc it is gg if you stick 2/3 angels or more. Your opponent's would have fried the early sfm/clique so even 2 angels will get there, ditto when against a jace. It also floods the ground against Mav with big bodies and not just chump blockers.

Regarding setting up, it's pretty easy with brainstorm, snapcaster and jace. I'd advise holding on to it till the last minute and suddenly flooding the board with angels for the blowout. It's like the ultimate come from behind card. Unlikely temporal, this card will win you the game no matter what board position you are in. Temporal is only good when you are ahead. Terminus on the other hand, I am undecided on. It's great when you are behind and much easier to cast than wrath. But playing too many copies is hard because you might draw too many early and be forced to use brainstorm to set it up. The trick to abuse sweepers is timing. It's hard to time terminus correctly for maximum effect and might lead to going off too early or too late. I'm sticking to ee/wrath for now.

[Dzra]

I'd be curious to see how people's testing with Entreat goes. In terms of pure theorycrafting...

Elspeth:
+ Not affected by creature removal/sweepers/Deed

+ Is good at any stage of the game

+ Can be sandbagged in hand for as long as you like

- Bad against fliers

- Producing one 1/1 a turn isn't high impact and can't save an overrun board state

Entreat the Angels:
+ Has a powerful impact on the board the turn it's played

+ Gets better the longer the game goes

+ Topdecked any time after turn 4/5 is possibly game winning

- Doesn't play nicely with our (and opposing) sweepers

- Requires Miracle for maximum benefit (therefore much less flexible with its timing)

- Encourages you to play badly into Daze/Spell Pierce

[Thorondor]

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Temporal Mastery
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Entreat the Angel
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Spell Snare
1 Ponder
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island


At the moment I would like to test something like that. Temporal Mastery is at worst a mana ramp or a win more option, but it can also help to dig us out of a bad situation.

Another idea ist to fit the counterbalance package into the deck:
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Counterspell
-1 Temporal Mastery
-1 Ponder
-1 Jace
+3 CB
+3 Top

something like that.

[anwei]

At the moment I would like to test something like that. Temporal Mastery is at worst a mana ramp or a win more option, but it can also help to dig us out of a bad situation.


I mean, an uncastable do-nothing is worse still. Even an uncastable do-nothing that you can play in conjunction with brainstorm in order to set up a mana ramp is pretty awful...

I really like 3-4x Terminus as it is almost never dead against decks with creatures, can be back-breaking, and is usually always worth the setup if you're willing to play it.
This is not a great thread for sfm-less,blade-less UW control decks, however.

(Check out Carsten Kotter's article/lists here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24053_Get_Ready_To_Terminate.html), if you haven't. If there isn't a good place to discuss these, perhaps there should be.)

[Sygg_River_Landlord]

Personally I've just adopted to run Delver/Daze/Wasteland, which does work wonders.

Could we see a list?

[ivanpei]

Could we see a list?

SFM less, bladeless decks all suffer from the same problem, no clock. That's why I'm not inclined to play the terminus countertop version. With cavern, counter based control is even worse. That's the main reason I haven't been pursuing bladeless versions. I'll be getting my entreats soon and I look forward to testing it. I feel that it's splashiness warrants having it as a 1 off main, most likely replacing Elspeth and probably another in the board, as another bomb when you board out the sfm package.

Question, if you are testing terminus, which would you replace in the board, engineered explosives, path or wrath? I'm inclined to pick replacing ee, because though versatile, it's main use is as a cheap. Sweeper, which is exactly what terminus is, a conditionally better cheap sweeper. So a 2/2 Wrath/terminus split is ok? I don't fancy drawing too many terminus early and get them stuck without brainstorm. Ditto wrath because it's 4cc, so a split is best?

[Thorondor]

well, I don't know. I would cut wrath completely and keep at least one explosives especially if you play with academy ruins. Sometimes you can kill choke with it and it is also very useful against enchantress or jitte or other random non-creature stuff. If you only go for terminus in the sideboard I would cut 2 wrath and 1-2 path.

[Dzra]

I'm not too fond of PtE at the moment. Right now, the MUs where we need more removal, we don't need more targeted removal. I would keep the EE, and replace the PtEs with Cursed Totem and, if you're so inclined, the WoG with Terminus.

In regards to WoG VS Terminus...

How often do I topdeck a WoG while behind and not want/need to use it that turn?

How often would tapping one W as opposed to 2WW be relevant when playing against Choke, Wasteland, Thalia, Daze, and Spell Pierce?

How often am I going to have an opener with a Terminus and no access to Brainstorm within the first 4 turns?

How relevant is the 2 extra mana to flash back Terminus with Snapcaster?

How relevant is "bottom of the library" as opposed to "destroyed?"

And in regards to whether or not UWx hard control can be a deck... I doubt it. Terminus is good, but not format warping good. And even if it is, it doesn't have much to do with the Stoneblade thread. It's not so much a matter of Control Deck X being bad per say; it's always a matter of it being worse than its hybrid control counterpart.

[Thorondor]

yeah, sure my decklist belongs somewhere else, sorry for that, I post it in the correct thread later on.

On the other hand terminus is only a sideboard card for stoneblade IF you board out the stoneforge packages which I did a lot while I was on U/W before switching to esperblade. I am really trying to get back to U/W but not sure if stoneblade or u/w control with entreat/jace as finisher.
Somehow the stoneforge package feels so bad against maverick and too slow against rug same for ur-delverburn.

The two best Tier 1 decks are just not easy matchups what you guys think?

[Dzra]

On the other hand terminus is only a sideboard card for stoneblade IF you board out the stoneforge packages which I did a lot while I was on U/W before switching to esperblade.

I'm not sure why you'd have to side out the SFM package any more with Terminus than you would with WoG. In fact, using the extra mana to drop a SFM post-Terminus sounds pretty good. Terminus with Entreat the Angels sounds infinitely worse since you are down a card, all your angels, and Entreat doesn't even go back in. At least if you Terminus your own SFM, you still have the equipment and the SFM goes back to your deck.


I am really trying to get back to U/W but not sure if stoneblade or u/w control with entreat/jace as finisher.
Somehow the stoneforge package feels so bad against maverick and too slow against rug same for ur-delverburn.

The SFM package generally isn't the best against Maverick due to their access to a lot of virtual artifact removal. I really like Cursed Totem for Maverick and it might be good enough to make SFM good here.

As for RUG and UR, I think SFM into Batterskull is essential. I don't know why you'd ever board it out in either MU. Batterskull is basically a win against UR and very nearly so against RUG. At the very least, it's a solid answer to Mongoose.


The two best Tier 1 decks are just not easy matchups what you guys think?

RUG is fine. Maverick needs a lot of work. Terminus may be what we need. People are also starting to adopt Cursed Totem. We'll see.

[Thorondor]

sure, some things will change.

For me stoneforge into batterskull always felt too slow. Mystic mostly does not survive one turn or the token gets stifled and you have to play around daze, so you can normaly play mystic around turn 3-4 (one land get stifled or wasted) and than you still need one more turn to get Batterskull online. Most of the time I fetch jitte against RUG only batterskull if I have enough lands to hardcast it soon and/or force/pierce to save mystic from dying.

[Mackan]

I don't like lingering souls... terminus and cb is one way of playing blue control/semi-control. I however invented the wheel again. Ancestral vision.

CREATURES (10)
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
INSTANTS (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Batterskull
LANDS (24)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
SIDEBOARD
1 Gideon Jura
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict


Basicly you interact with your opponent from every angle (discard, counters, pressure, removal) almost like team america. But instead of running fragile wincons you have sfm and planeswalkers and instead of taxing counters you run real cards. Ironicly the card i don't want run is hard to deal with (Lingering souls).

What do you guys think?

[OneWingedAngel]

I think it'll be better running 1 jitte main over the other Batterskull. Most metas nowadays are shifting to esperblade over traditional UW blade lists.

just my two cents

[Arsenal]

I'm running a fairly stock UW list. What should I look for in the RUG Delver matchup? Obviously, fetch (safely) as many basics as possible in order to not get blown out Wasteland x 2 early, but beyond that, what specifics should I watch for?

[matunos]

I'm running a fairly stock UW list. What should I look for in the RUG Delver matchup? Obviously, fetch (safely) as many basics as possible in order to not get blown out Wasteland x 2 early, but beyond that, what specifics should I watch for?

Batterskull. Especially G1, they really can't deal with it.

[Arsenal]

My creature suite is currently 4 SFM, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique (I like his versatility and having a total of 6 Flash equipment carriers is nice), but I find that keeping my guys around versus RUG is difficult (countermagic + burn + their guys trade/are bigger than my guys). I could run Geist, but I don't really think he does anything well other than beat face (whereas Clique beats for less, but is far more versatile). Thoughts? Maybe run more Spell Pierce?

[OneWingedAngel]

@Arsenal:

Based on experience, my usual strategy is to drag the game a little further when I'm up against RUG. Common knowledge is to fetch basics early on. Also, an opening hand with a least 1 STP is recommended as RUG would usually try to land that Turn 1 delver if they are on the play. Most of the time. If your game reaches mid to end, you get the upper hand against them assuming you made that they were unable to flood the board with a number of threats. Take note of their cards on hand. At some point, you would usually run into an attrition fight to the point that they would commit everything and end up in topdeck mode. 90% of the time, I usually end up recovering faster. It's ok if they burn out most of your critters as long as they dont have any as well. Stifles on batterskull are backbreaking.

*BTW, Im using 2 Mirran Crusaders and 2 cliques for my build. They have been awesome against mongoose. Yeah they get burned but better that directing the burn spells to you.

[ivanpei]

As for RUG and UR, I think SFM into Batterskull is essential. I don't know why you'd ever board it out in either MU. Batterskull is basically a win against UR and very nearly so against RUG. At the very least, it's a solid answer to Mongoose.

You really want to board out the SFM package against RUG. Initially I though SFM was great against them but they almost always play ancient grudge. I played against 2 RUG players at a fairly high level tournament lately and both times I was blown out by grudge in. You invest so much and then get your equip blown up by a grudge. It's worse because you can't deal with the flashback most of the time and if they blow both batterskull and jitte, the SFMs you draw in the future are dead draws.

I'm still on the fence on Terminus (due to timing issues with brainstorm). But I think Entreat is the real deal as a "finisher". I feel that traditional UW needs a little "umph" to push it over the top in the late game. Sometimes I feel like the deck needs a little more raw power (ie black splash for lingering), and Entreat does that very well. It's a GG card that is quite efficient for it's manacost and wins games straight up no matter how down you are in board position.

[learntolove6]

What do people think about Firespout in the SB with the red splash? Personally, I wouldn't be running green at all, and it'd just be for the red half. It seems good against Maverick, killing everything except KotR (which can just be path'd or w/e), gets around Teeg in that match-up, which I find to be incredibly relevant, and is cheaper (so it has more play ability against RUG Delver. I mean, it has it's downsides too, such as (without the green splash) not killing flipped Delvers and not killing anything fucking huge like a Progenitus, but I think the cheapness of it gives it good value against Mongeese and things like Thalia.

I mention this because I got reamed by Maverick yesterday and they had a Teeg on board, which made both my EE and Terminus completely dead. Does anyone have any experience with Firespout?

On Entreat the Angels, I was playtesting it yesterday and I found it very difficult to cast, even after setting it up. The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it was extremely relevant in my small amount of testing. I almost always Brainstorm with a fetch out and then drawing it was just the worst, especially when I wanted it, because I couldn't get the land from the fetch without either keeping it in my hand or getting rid of it. Plus, the match-ups where it's very good (e.g. Maverick) make it difficult to have WW on the spot, without having two basic plains, which I can't find room for if I want a Karakas in my list. UW Stoneblade (even with the red splash) really prides itself on an incredibly stable mana base.

[heroicraptor]

The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it

Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

[learntolove6]

Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

This is great to know. Thanks man.

[ivanpei]

Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

Yeap, you draw it, reveal it and the trigger goes on. Then you can crack your fetch to get the 2nd white. I've found it really slow as well. I only tested it because I was unhappy with Elspeth. I've since gone back to 4 Jaces. Jace=always good. Pitches to force, bounces Delvers and all around super bomb. Don't know why we aren't playing 4 already.

Then again I still believe entreat is better than Elspeth. I don't find Elspeth good in this deck at all. It simply does not change games. I have cut entreat from the main because it's situational and only good in the late game but I've kept 1 copy in the board for the sfm-less plan.

As for the red splash for spout, I think the black splash for perish is better. You get to kill the green bigs too. That said, Mav is always a hard mu.

[freddy418]

I wrote up a tournament report about running Esper Blade at a 63-man legacy event.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23801-Top-4-with-Esper-Blade-Jupiter-Games-Johnson-City-NY

[sdematt]

I was almost certain once you reveal the miracle, you have to pay, and you can't crack fetchlands to pay for the miracle. I was certain they were linked as one entity.

-Matt

[TkDodo]

I was almost certain once you reveal the miracle, you have to pay, and you can't crack fetchlands to pay for the miracle. I was certain they were linked as one entity.

-Matt

When the trigger goes on the stack, of course you can respond to it by fetching. The thing is just that if you put the trigger on the stack and then pass priority by asking your opponent "ok?" or something stupid, if he then says "yes", the trigger resolves. When the trigger is resolving, you have to pay the mana, so then you can't go fetching.

[matunos]

You can respond to the trigger by cracking a fetch. Once the trigger resolves, you can't crack a fetch. Just be sure to be clear to your opponent what is happening, and don't get caught in a situation where you pass priority without fetching, or a pedantic opponent will call you on it (once you pass priority and they pass priority, you can't fetch anymore).

As for Firespout, howabout Bonfire of the Damned instead? More mana intensive, but it's one-sided, hits all creatures (sans protection) and is actually castable without miracle, and splashable with its solitary R requirement.

[klaus]

As for Firespout, howabout Bonfire of the Damned instead? More mana intensive, but it's one-sided, hits all creatures (sans protection) and is actually castable without miracle, and splashable with its solitary R requirement.

We actually don't care about our opponents' life totals until the point we're in complete control - so the damage to the face doesn't matter. Furthermore, it's off color and doesn't get those bothersome fatties. I don't see how BofD will find a home in any Legacy archetype.

[matunos]

We actually don't care about our opponents' life totals until the point we're in complete control - so the damage to the face doesn't matter. Furthermore, it's off color and doesn't get those bothersome fatties. I don't see how BofD will find a home in any Legacy archetype.

"Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls."

Any deck that would be considering Firespout (which was the question to which I was responding) is on color for BotD.

Granted, BotD is un-flashbackable, practically speaking.

[ivanpei]

I think this deck needs a change up to survive in the current meta. No Stoneblade at all the the t16. Another card I've found to be great in the board is timely reinforcements. I feel that this deck has a hard game against burn or hyper fast ur delver decks. Timely is a very good flashbackable bomb.

Since I already main 2 paths, I'll the following creature busting suit:

2 Terminus
2 Timely
2 Wrath

[chags]

I think this deck needs a change up to survive in the current meta. No Stoneblade at all the the t16. Another card I've found to be great in the board is timely reinforcements. I feel that this deck has a hard game against burn or hyper fast ur delver decks. Timely is a very good flashbackable bomb.

Since I already main 2 paths, I'll the following creature busting suit:

2 Terminus
2 Timely
2 Wrath


I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

[klaus]

I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

I've tested TR and found it okay. With the surge of super-fast Aggro it's a viable SB option.
And yes the 6 life do make a significant difference.

@ matunos:
obviously I'm aware of the damage BotD deals to creatures.. I don't see any advantage over Terminus whatsoever and it is off-(UW)-color, meaning chances are your R sources don't exist when you draw it (Wasteland), which sucks cause you'll have a hard time setting it up again.

[learntolove6]

I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

How does your manabase look? Actually, could I see your list? I run the red splash too and I want to see how other lists look. I don't run any splash MD right now, but I like the idea of Forked Bolts. Do you find them strong enough?

[chags]

How does your manabase look? Actually, could I see your list? I run the red splash too and I want to see how other lists look. I don't run any splash MD right now, but I like the idea of Forked Bolts. Do you find them strong enough?

MD I run:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded STrand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I'm thinking about cutting the riptide lab for a palteau and cutting a disenchant for a second blue elemental blast in the board. Beyond that the list has been treating me well. Forked bolt has been very helpful against maverick, rug, and lingering souls.

[ivanpei]

No Spell Snare? I think you need at least 2-3. I'd rather have that over Counterspell/Ponder. And no Wastelands? I think Riptide/Karakas/Academy could be Wastelands, especially since Cavern of Souls is a card now. I play all 4 in UW because Cavern is really good against us.

Also, winning games due to mana screwing opponents/ trading lands with opponents if I'm flooding is always good. Karakas/Riptide/Academy are more situational, but that's my opinion.

[Arsenal]

How has Elsepth been working for those of you that are running her? I've always played 4-Jace/0-Elspeth and have always been pretty happy. Having a body to carry equipment hasn't really been too much of an issue (4 Snap, 4 SFM, 2 Mishra's Factory, 2 Clique, 2 Geist creature suite).

[chags]

No Spell Snare? I think you need at least 2-3. I'd rather have that over Counterspell/Ponder. And no Wastelands? I think Riptide/Karakas/Academy could be Wastelands, especially since Cavern of Souls is a card now. I play all 4 in UW because Cavern is really good against us.

Also, winning games due to mana screwing opponents/ trading lands with opponents if I'm flooding is always good. Karakas/Riptide/Academy are more situational, but that's my opinion.

Pierce and counterspell do more then snare, snare seems to only answer cards we already can answer. I don't like wasteland for a multitude of reasons. One I'm running ee x2 main and forked bolts so cavern really doesn't do much, I've only seen it played in goblins which I don't have issues with. I also dislike it because mana screwing people is not what this deck wants to do, it wants top cast jace and elspeth reliably. Thirdly I'm running 23 land...running wastes requires a 24th and probably a crucible in the sb to be truly valuable.

Elspeth is awesome against the mirror and against rug/mav. I'd play at least one MD.

[Arsenal]

For UW, is the standard equipment suite 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte? Or are people also playing 1 Sword of XYZ in addition to Jitte and Batterskull? I suppose I could cut a SoFaF and run an Elspeth (definitely not cutting my 4th Jace).

[chags]

For UW, is the standard equipment suite 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte? Or are people also playing 1 Sword of XYZ in addition to Jitte and Batterskull? I suppose I could cut a SoFaF and run an Elspeth (definitely not cutting my 4th Jace).

I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

[learntolove6]

I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

Sulfur Elemental is insane. Very very good.

[Arsenal]

I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

My UW build as of today:

2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

To me, the only flex spots would be cutting 1-2 creatures and cutting the SoFaF which could give me 2-3 more slots for something else (more removal/sweepers, more countermagic, etc).

[chags]

I dislike 4 fow especially along side 3 Pierce. I think you could cut a fow, the sofaf, and yes a jace or two. Jace is just very mediocre against rug and.mav and lingering souls is decent at killing jace as well. In a wasteland heavy Meta you don't want too many 4 drops. I really dislike geist without elspeth, especially if you cut sofaf. If you don't want to splash a color I'd add two path to exile to this MD. That being said a splash and playing engineered explosives is very worth it. And as I said previously I'm.not a fan of wasteland but if you are running them I'd play a crucible in the 75 as well.

[ivanpei]

Contrary to popular belief, Elspeth is not great against delver. She needs double white and against a flying delver, she does nothing. Also simply blocking a goose/Goyf everyturn is underwhelming. Stoneblade is not very aggro, so her added damage is not too useful. She is only really good against other decks with Jace because she can kill jace.

Jace IMO is better as the 4th walker. He pitches to force against combo, extras can be brainstorm away, he bounces delvers/dudes and most importantly he draws cards. I've found that when I get an Elspeth to stick, she is not game. She chumps for a while then gets killed when they flood with dudes. Her + 3/+ 3 is also not very impressive because we are unlikely to win any damage race. Jace makes a much bigger splash.

Even if he gets killed, a few bounces/brainstorms can put you ahead indefinitely. Elspeth at best for me makes my batterskull a flying scary lifelinker, but often, she soaks a bunch of damage, then dies. Jace bounces and creates tempo. Then helps me draw into answers to control the game, and finally fateseals and ultis for the finishing touch.

My 2 cents.

[chags]

Contrary to popular belief, Elspeth is not great against delver. She needs double white and against a flying delver, she does nothing. Also simply blocking a goose/Goyf everyturn is underwhelming. Stoneblade is not very aggro, so her added damage is not too useful. She is only really good against other decks with Jace because she can kill jace.

Jace IMO is better as the 4th walker. He pitches to force against combo, extras can be brainstorm away, he bounces delvers/dudes and most importantly he draws cards. I've found that when I get an Elspeth to stick, she is not game. She chumps for a while then gets killed when they flood with dudes. Her + 3/+ 3 is also not very impressive because we are unlikely to win any damage race. Jace makes a much bigger splash.

Even if he gets killed, a few bounces/brainstorms can put you ahead indefinitely. Elspeth at best for me makes my batterskull a flying scary lifelinker, but often, she soaks a bunch of damage, then dies. Jace bounces and creates tempo. Then helps me draw into answers to control the game, and finally fateseals and ultis for the finishing touch.

My 2 cents.

Between bolt, flying delvers, unbounceable mongeese, and rebs post board I don't see how you are keeping jace on the table against rug. He is a 4 mana brainstorm or a 4 mana unsummon against that deck and then promptly dies most times. Elsepth is a planeswalker most rug players will try to get off the table quickly. Between her ability to give chump blockers and her high loyalty right from the start this will at least take a few turns unless their hand is nuts in which case you were losing with either planeswalker. Double white is not an issue when you build your mana base accordingly, I run 7 basics as well as 4 white producing duals and a karakas. I actually end up siding out my jaces often versus rug and maverick. Just my opinion of course but for me jace always seems very low impact and dies quickly unless I'm already ahead on board in which case either planeswalker will win the game.

[Borealis]

Elspeth also offers a quick way for Stoneblade to close a game that's within reach. Jumping a Batterskull or even a Snapcaster Mage 2 turns in a row can often be all you need to win. Getting in one hit with a 7/7 Batterskull and having a 5 loyalty Elspeth on the table to boot is going to be backbreaking against any aggro deck. Not to mention the fact that she spits out dudes when all you have left is equipment. Jace doesn't help you much there.

It's true that she can be somewhat low-impact when they have flyers that are beating you down, but RUG only runs 4 Delvers and Elspeth happily blocks the other 66% of their threats while you dig for further answers. The reason she is so good is that she often requires multiple cards/turns from your opponent to get her off the table when you are behind, and when you're at parity or ahead she can simply take over the game.

[ivanpei]

To each their own, I started with 4 Jace, loved it. Tried 3/1 split, felt weak to me, as I always felt I prefered Jace over Elspeth whenever I drawed her. Too many situations where I felt, "man if this was a Jace, I would have closed this out ages ago instead of chumping to infinity". Maybe I played against too many delver decks, who knows. I've gone back to 4 and Jace hasn't let me down yet.

[rchinnock]

What do people think of trying to put delver in stoneblade with a list like this, which is more aggressive? Jace and possibly Elspeth could be in the sideboard, but the MD is more of an aggro-control deck than a more straight up control list.

4 delver of secrets
4 stoneforge mystic
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
2 vendillion clique
4 lingering souls
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
1 vindicate
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 tundra
3 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
1 swamp
1 island
1 plains

[JBlaze]

Tempo Blade was top 8 at BoM I think it is a beast. This is the list I am going to run at a local tournament this weekend.

4 delver of secrets
3 stoneforge mystic
3 snapcaster mage

3 lingering souls
3 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull


3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
3 wasteland

Sideboard
3 surgical extraction
2 perish
2 intangible virtue
1 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 inquisition of kozilek
1 disenchant
1 vidicate
1 engineered explosives
1 umezawa's jitte
1 zealous persecution

[rchinnock]

I like your list except for a few things. The first is related to the fact that this deck is much more mana hungry than RUG delver. Despite also having many cheap spells, I don't think that either daze or wasteland fit as well in it for a number of reasons. First of all, Stoneforge is much better if you can reliably get to 5 mana, since then it really IS a two-for-one. You get a batterskull with it on, say, turn 3 or 4. Then they kill it - which happens all the time. But then a turn or two later you have a batterskull anyways. The same is true with Lingering Souls: if you can cast both halves on the same turn, it is much more powerful. I think that lingering souls and stoneforge are the two most powerful cards in the deck, except for Jace, and that there should probably be 4 of each. Therefore, I wouldn't play daze or wasteland, since these disrupt your curve and stop you from fully utilizing your two most powerful threats: stoneforge and lingering souls. Also, if you are running 4 stoneforge mystics, it makes sense to run the fourth discard spell, since getting both a stoneforge and an inquisition/thoughtseize is very powerful, since it often means resolving stoneforge and cheating batterskull into play. Delver, as far as I can see, is good in that it randomly will give you a good clock and be very aggressive, especially iff you get 2. It is also good, however, because people will kill it and then you can cast stoneforge and have it live. For this reason, having 4 stoneforge as well is good, because it increases the likelihood that this will happen. That was also a good reason to run both dark confidant and stoneforge in older esper stoneblade lists - whichever you want to live, play the other one first: they'll usually kill it since both simply win the game unanswered, and then you can play the other one, which is backbreaking.

Another thing: you simply CANNOT play this deck as if it is RUG delver - they are entirely different. Esper delver is not a tempo deck, it just happens to have an extremely efficient creature avaliable that can randomly kill them really quickly. You don't have burn, many of your threats only become truly powerful as you get more lands out, etc. So I don't think doing the wasteland/daze thing works as much as just lowering your curve and playing something that is still more similar to Esper Stoneforge than it is to RUG delver or Team America. If you can fit in wasteland as an ansewr to random utility lands, that's great: but I don't think it is worth having it in as a tempo thing.

The second thing I would change is this: if you max out on stoneforge and lingering souls, you have a lot more card advantage than if you only play 3 of each. This allows you to play yoru fourth force of will without as much of a penalty. I think this is worth doing, if you max out on your card-advantage threats and lose the tempo stuff.

You might want to play a vindicate or two, as it is a nice way to both have some extra removal against decks where this is important, and also having a way to kill Jace and other problematic permanents. I've lost too many games playing Stoneblade when my opponent resolved a crucible/wasteland lock and I simply couldn't deal with it.

Finally, for all of these reasons I would take out a ponder from the list that I posted above (right before yours), for the fourth underground sea. Also I like that you play snapcaster - I wanted V-clique instead for more hand disruption and a better clock, but obviously snapcaster is great and I would like to get some in my list if I could find some space.

[JBlaze]

rchinnock thanks for the input I agree Daze is pretty bad in this deck
-3 Daze
+1 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Lingering Souls
+1 Thoughtsieze

Force of Will-Now I loves me some force of will but I think I want to go 2 main deck 2 sideboard. The real issue is how badly force and snapcaster play together. Force removes blue cards that you want to be filling your graveyard with to snapcast while at the same time being a terrible target its self.

I really like wasteland I cut one of the basic islands for a fourth one. It is more of a utility card then a tempo card in this deck but that's fine. if you need it for mana then just save it and hit their utility lands. It also adds more disruption against combo.

updated list

4 delver of secrets
4 stoneforge mystic
3 snapcaster mage

4 lingering souls
2 force of will
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
1 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull


3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland

Sideboard
3 surgical extraction
2 perish
2 intangible virtue
2 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 vendillion clique
1 disenchant
1 engineered explosives
1 umezawa's jitte
1 zealous persecution

[rchinnock]

JBlaze - I like your defense of wasteland. It is obviously good as an out against utility lands, but I hadn't really thought about the fact that it gives more disruption against combo. With those two things going for it, I am more interested in playing it than I was before. Its always surprised me by how relevant it is when I actually do play it.

Another thing I like about wasteland in your list is that it works well with spell pierce. For the same reason that tectonic edge used to interact very well with spell pierce and mana leak in Caw-Blade mirrors (post stoneforge/jace bannings), wasteland works well with spell pierce. It would with daze, obviously, as well, if we were to run it. For this reason I'd like to get some spell pierce's into my list. Also, both spell pierce and spell snare work well with inquisition/thoughtseize, since you can take the things that these counters don't hit, which leaves you with very efficient counters for the spells that they, awkwardly, are left with no choice but to play.

As far as force of will goes, I think what you say makes sense, although you can also always ust pitch snapcaster himself if you are worried about having nothing to flashback with him. I personally have never had the courage to not play 4 forces! I would like to try at least going down to three though. Hands like: stoneforge, thoughtseize, force, ponder, 3 lands - these hands suck sometimes. You have to randomly pitch your ponder to your force, and then sometimes you completely run out of gas. So yeah - I agree, don't know about 2 though :)

Another thing that might be cool would be to play Dark Confidant. Maybe instead of Lingering Souls? I knonw lingering souls is great, but it is slow and bad against combo, and also to Thalia. Dark confidant might be better against decks like Maverick, Combo, and control decks which do not play a lot of spot removal which can easily pray on him. Also, he is just awesome in general.

One last thing - I think that Vendillion Clique might be getting better. Esper stoneblade was big for a while, and the presence of lingering souls made V-clique get worse. Yet V-clique is still excellent aginst every other deck in the format ... And Stoneblade also seems to be getting less popular. It has hardly been doing well at large tournaments for a month or so now. So it might be worth playing some, and just hoping you don't randomly get paired with a bunch of stoneblade decks. Its also not necesaarily too bad against stoneblade, since you might be able to actually snatch away one of their lingering souls with it, or render stoneforge useless, etc. I'm currently running 3 V-cliques instead of three snapcasters - I'm not really sure which is better though.

So another list, built with these ideas in mind (and which is not necessarily better against the field but also may be), might look like this:

4 delver of secrets
4 dark confidant/lingering souls
4 stoneforge mystic
2-3 vendillion clique
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte/sword of body and mind
3-4 force of will
3-4 spell snare
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

4 tundra
4 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
2 flooded strand
1 plains
1 island
1 swamp

[learntolove6]

So, in testing out Terminus I think it gives UW exactly what it needs against Delver and Maverick to pull through. It's bonkers against the 2 best decks in the format, and it does have some value against Sneak Attack as well. My question is: to Top or not to Top? UW in the top 8 of Bazaar of Moxen was running it and CB. It just slows the deck down to nothing, which is the problem, but it's also very powerful. This is the list I am testing:

4 Stoneforge
4 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion

3 Jace
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Top
2 Terminus

4 Brainstorm
4 StP
1 Batterskull
1 Feast and Famine
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
4 FoW

4 Tundra
2 Volcanic
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

I'm testing the entreat in the position of elspeth, and it seems most of the time I would want it, it would be much better than Elspeth. I'm considering to keep the deck at a reasonable pace to use 2 Ponder over the two Tops, but being able to miracle on their turn is very powerful.

What is everyone's opinion on this list?

[Polish Tamales]

Well, let's go over the Moxen's Top 8 version of it:


Stoneblade by Alejandro Henche

1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Misty rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Path to Exile
1 Terminus
1 Counterbalance


The deck literally is a Counter Top deck, with extremely high powered cards thanks to Miracles. The deck feels much more "unfair" compared to the "fair" version seen by Channel Fireball's crew at Worlds and the last Legacy GP. This is extremely important to note since U/W Stoneblade doesn't do anything well or specialize in OP linear plays, so with the inclusion of Miracles with the Counter Top package, makes it very unfair against creature-base match ups.

So looking at your deck, I feel that you should have Counterbalance in the main. It's a mistake to put it in the SB since you really need the game 1 win against Maverick (considering they'll use grips from the SB in the future).

If I had to modify my current deck, it would look very close to his:




1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Misty rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
5 Island

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Disenchant
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I really want to have 2 Factories at the least with Crucible, but I haven't proper tested it yet without knowing how fragile the mana-base can be. If you scout ahead of time, you can make the correct call and switch the Jitte around for the Sword. You might wonder about why use SoBaM of all the swords, but it fits best in the current meta right now. The token it leaves behind is very important and adding the possibility of deck out is appealing, especially against scrubby Dredge players who probably only invested in the deck for a few days or hours...

[learntolove6]

Well, let's go over the Moxen's Top 8 version of it:



The deck literally is a Counter Top deck, with extremely high powered cards thanks to Miracles. The deck feels much more "unfair" compared to the "fair" version seen by Channel Fireball's crew at Worlds and the last Legacy GP. This is extremely important to note since U/W Stoneblade doesn't do anything well or specialize in OP linear plays, so with the inclusion of Miracles with the Counter Top package, makes it very unfair against creature-base match ups.

So looking at your deck, I feel that you should have Counterbalance in the main. It's a mistake to put it in the SB since you really need the game 1 win against Maverick (considering they'll use grips from the SB in the future).

If I had to modify my current deck, it would look very close to his:



I really want to have 2 Factories at the least with Crucible, but I haven't proper tested it yet without knowing how fragile the mana-base can be. If you scout ahead of time, you can make the correct call and switch the Jitte around for the Sword. You might wonder about why use SoBaM of all the swords, but it fits best in the current meta right now. The token it leaves behind is very important and adding the possibility of deck out is appealing, especially against scrubby Dredge players who probably only invested in the deck for a few days or hours...

I was trying Body and Mind but with Terminus you get a lot of reach against creature-based decks already. Feast and Famine is a significant degree better against combo, which is still a legitimate threat. This balance is difficult to find, but Spell Pierce and Feast and Famine are very strong. Although, I do agree with you. Body and Mind is insane against the two best aggro decks in the format.

I'm tempted to put CB in the main, but i'm still not convinced.

[AEnesidem]

I was trying Body and Mind but with Terminus you get a lot of reach against creature-based decks already. Feast and Famine is a significant degree better against combo, which is still a legitimate threat. This balance is difficult to find, but Spell Pierce and Feast and Famine are very strong. Although, I do agree with you. Body and Mind is insane against the two best aggro decks in the format.

I'm tempted to put CB in the main, but i'm still not convinced.

does someone know if there is coverage of that deck? i'm really interested.

i've been playing the SFM-less build for some days now and i am very enthousiastic about this deck. Personaly i would keep the counterbalance maindeck. Top is the difference between this deck being mediocre and fenomenal and counterbalance is good against rug delver, combo and every other low curved deck out there so i see no reason not to play it main. It has been awesome in every match for me.
I dislike the presence of too many colorless lands in this deck, because it prevents you from dropping counterbalance on turn 2.
however i haven't tested th elist with SFM yet, so that may turn out differently.

[rchinnock]

(This isn't on the topic of the Terminus/Sensei's divining top list - so feel free to ignore it)

I have been working with the following list and it has been doing well for me. The main difference between it and normal esper stoneblade lists is twofold:
(1) I've cut Jace, because its bad against RUG delver, and seems mediocre against Maverick, with Thalia and Wasteland keeping it off the board, and mother of runes stopping you from bouncing stuff. Also, he's not good against combo.
(2) No lingering souls - for the same reasons: mediocre against RUG delver, bad against Thalia, and bad against combo.

The aim is to lower your curve, yet to keep the power level relatively high. Dark confidant provides another engine, which is exactly what you need if you choose not to play lingering souls or jace. He is powerful, but also cheap, and seems to be better against decks that have a lot of ways to keep you off your awkwardly expensive spells than either lingering souls or Jace.

The list also packs 3 V-cliques in addition to the 4 thoughtseize effects, in order to maximize hand disruption against control, combo, and maverick. I know they are bad against lingering souls but not many people are doing well with that Esper stoneblade list that runs lingering souls anyways, so I figured it shouldn't matter that much.

Here's the list:

4 stoneforge mystic
4 snapcaster mage
4 dark confidant
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 batterskull
1 sword of body and mind/feast and famine

4 underground sea
4 tundra
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
1 swamp
1 island
1 plains

[Tombstalker]

Rchinnock- I haven't tested your list but it looks pretty vulnerable to tempo thresh, especially forked bolt but burn in general. Also the creature base are all chump blockers against goyf and goose not to mention maverick and the deck still doesn't handle geese any better except through batterskull. No offense but I just don't see this deck beating tempo thresh or maverick.
I would be tempted to lower the creature count and switch bob for tombstalker. Basically go esper America dodging submerge and trumping their burn and threats. SFM could stay. Drop scm and change cliques to delvers maybe add vindicates.
Idk maybe others will have a different view though and these are just friendly ideas.

[rchinnock]

I've been testing this list against Thresh, and it hasn't been too bad. Geese are a serious problem though, and forked both can be bad too. The strategy against this deck is actually similar to that against Zoo. You have to play SFM and bob off of each other correctly. They will almost always kill whichever one you play first (because either one can win the game on its own if it lives), so I've found that if you play one, and then the other, you can often keep the second one alive, especially with discard/force of will to back it up. So often the game plan revolves around trying to resolve SFM through that way. Or you just let it die and try to cast your batterskull a turn or two later.

As far as goyf goes, it has been the least problematic creature for me. Delver and geese are much worse. You simply have a lot more answers to goyf, with both spell snare and swords, your discard, etc. It can be hard to block but that's the case with every esper deck - you simply don't play creatures that big. Jace would be good against goyf, but it sucks against thresh in general so its not worth it. Vindicate would also be okay here, but its expensive and will be easily countered by that deck, if they even let you get to three lands.

I do like your suggestions though - but the one thing I don't really want to do is play delver in this list. I was playing that for a while, and its impact wasn't low enough - the deck seemed generally too light and didn't have enough serious threats.

Vindicate is also good, obviously. I used to play 2 of those in a list like this and they were great. I think that engineered explosives might be better because it kills geese.

The problem with tombstalker is the problem with hymn to taurach. THey're both good but getting double black against thresh is almost impossible sometimes. So I decided to try and make most of the deck be able to run on a single color. But you might still be right. He is a good threat obviously and between him and SFM, you could have a kind of esper america list that might be good. The question comes down to him vs. Snapcaster Mage, I guess.


Finally, one card I would like to play is Sensei's divining Top. It helps smooth your late game draws out and provides nice resistance against land destruction by letting you find more lands.

This deck's power level can be pretty high for the low curve it plays which is one thing I like about it. The main thing is to make it more resilient against creature decks. Do you have any ideas for cards that will help with this besides vindicate or Engineered explosives? The best thing would obviously jjust be another path or two, but I don't want to over-load on removal since there are decks where they are blanks.

One thing I was thinking about changing also is -2 ponder, +1 path to exile, +1 counterspell, or maybe a vindicate or two - something like that.

[Tombstalker]

You make some goods points about removing the first threat and the double color requirements. I still think stalkers are worth it though, casting them with the same plan following up a sfm with him instead of bob. being immune to counterbalance seems to be more and more relevant these days.

Top is great but I'm not sure this deck wants the heavy mana investment. Could be a 1 of maybe.

Regarding creature decks this is why I would suggest vindicates and/or EE. These allow you to increase your removal density without having dead spot removal in hand. The rest can really be covered with black from the board: perish, dread of night, massacre, darkblast etc I play all of these except massacre currently. Works wonders.

The other issue I see is that you are caught between control and a tempo shell except with more creatures. Not sure since I haven't played changes of this extreme but I would try to focus more on one or the other for maximum effect. I.e. run more tempo cards and wasteland to make sure your threats are superior at that stage of the game state while denying theirs or else include bigger bombs. Also vindicate goes well with wasteland.

[Kanadell~]

Well, let's go over the Moxen's Top 8 version of it:



The deck literally is a Counter Top deck, with extremely high powered cards thanks to Miracles. The deck feels much more "unfair" compared to the "fair" version seen by Channel Fireball's crew at Worlds and the last Legacy GP. This is extremely important to note since U/W Stoneblade doesn't do anything well or specialize in OP linear plays, so with the inclusion of Miracles with the Counter Top package, makes it very unfair against creature-base match ups.

So looking at your deck, I feel that you should have Counterbalance in the main. It's a mistake to put it in the SB since you really need the game 1 win against Maverick (considering they'll use grips from the SB in the future).

If I had to modify my current deck, it would look very close to his:



I really want to have 2 Factories at the least with Crucible, but I haven't proper tested it yet without knowing how fragile the mana-base can be. If you scout ahead of time, you can make the correct call and switch the Jitte around for the Sword. You might wonder about why use SoBaM of all the swords, but it fits best in the current meta right now. The token it leaves behind is very important and adding the possibility of deck out is appealing, especially against scrubby Dredge players who probably only invested in the deck for a few days or hours...


I like both lists so much. Counterbalance and Stoneforge maindeck are sick, also with 1 entreat the angels and 3 terminus to establish and finish the game.
Maybe I'd keep the Crucible maindeck, because it can crash the opponent's manabase with infinite Wasteland, or it can Refresh your top with fetchlands, and if you have Top + CB is sick. Maybe cutting 1 Vendilion for the Crucible? I don't know.
I'm also wondering if the sword of BaM/FaF is better than Jitte in the maindeck... Jitte can kill a lot of thing or it can bring you the life you need to stay alive.

[rchinnock]

Hey Tombstalker, what about something like this - heeding some but not all of your suggestions :) Liliana could be replaced by Engineered Explosives, but probably not vindicate, because I think you want ways to kill nimble mongoose. Liliana seems more versatile than EE because she can act as hand disruption if you don't need to kill critters.

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine/body and mind
3 tombstalker
4 force of will
4 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 jace, the mindsculptor
2 liliana of the veil

4 underground sea
4 tundra
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
1 plains
1 swamp
1 island

[Arsenal]

Decks that run Tombstalker do so because they can tap out every turn and not care due to running stuff like daze, fow, and snuff out. We dont have that same luxury. Im curious if you find that Tombstalker is better than Snapcaster in a SFM-Jace shell. On paper, i dont see the advantages. Snapcaster 's value increases greatly when running proactive stuff like thoughtseize and inq of kozilek.

[rchinnock]

That's a good point. The one nice thing about Tombstalker, though, is that he is strong against decks with burn, i.e. those delver decks that can be troublesome. You are still probably right though , in my opinion - I was just putting up an idea.

[Arsenal]

That's a good point. The one nice thing about Tombstalker, though, is that he is strong against decks with burn, i.e. those delver decks that can be troublesome. You are still probably right though , in my opinion - I was just putting up an idea.

But doesn't Batterskull already do that? I guess I don't understand what Tombstalker os sipposed to do in a SFM-Jace shell.

[Water_Wizard]

So looking at your deck, I feel that you should have Counterbalance in the main. It's a mistake to put it in the SB since you really need the game 1 win against Maverick (considering they'll use grips from the SB in the future).


I like Counterbalance main, but not against Maverick. I board Counterbalance out against Maverick. They have a solid curve preboard 12 1-drops, 10-12 2-drops and 6-7 3 drops and postboard 8 1-drops, 10-12 2-drops, and 7-10 3-drops. We don't really have answers to the 3 drops. Plus, GSZ can equal anything, negating top.

Please let me know why you think CouterTop is a good plan against Maverick and also please let me know your strategy.

My strategy vs. Maverick is to set up an early Terminus and follow it up with Snapcaster/Swords recursion or SFM/equipment while avoiding Choke.

[rchinnock]

Hey Arsenal - Its very hard to resolve a batterskull against RUG or RU delver. They kill your stoneforge or counter it - almost every time. And then they wasteland and stifle your lands, while keeping daze, force, and spell pierce up, which make it literally almost impossible to resolve a 5 mana non-creature spell. In short, resolving batterskull is difficult, either via stoneforge, or through hard-casting it. By turn 4 or 5, however, tombstalker is a 2-3 mana spell that is easier to resolve: being both cheaper and immune to spell pierce. Also - its just more cards that do what batterskull does, in addition to being easier to resolve, and it is pretty good for those reasons, in my opinion. Its also a faster clock than anything else you have against combo and control, which seems good. Also, we put a lot of cards in the graveyard, even without snuff out or daze, and so I think that tombstalker is not at all awkward in a deck like this. You play 6-8 cantrips, 4 one-mana discard spells, 4 one-mana removal spells, 4-6 one-mana counterspells, 4 force of wills, and 9 fetch lands. By the time you are ready to cast a threat, tombstalker should be 2 mana, and therefore basically a flying Tarmogoyf that shrinks other people's tarmogoyfs.

[Tombstalker]

Decks that run Tombstalker do so because they can tap out every turn and not care due to running stuff like daze, fow, and snuff out. We dont have that same luxury. Im curious if you find that Tombstalker is better than Snapcaster in a SFM-Jace shell. On paper, i dont see the advantages. Snapcaster 's value increases greatly when running proactive stuff like thoughtseize and inq of kozilek.
I agree on tapping out, and these were essentially the tempo cards I was referring to.

rchinnock- Hope I havent messed you up with my suggestions. To be clear I am confident that an esper america TEMPO shell would be strong with approximately 11-13 threats (stalkers, SFM, delvers for example) along with the aformentioned tempo cards.

Conversely esper stoneblade is very strong eschewing the tempo plan for a lategame with bombs like jace, entreat and CA via SCM, souls, SFM, terminus and so on. I do not think a mixture of these two strategies will be as strong as either individual strategy though, which is currently where your builds are residing IMO.

I really like the idea of EE maindeck right now since it answers everything barring plainswalkers for the most, which vindicate can do either main or from the board.

I will say this, tombstalker is very well positioned right now IME. As you stated it trumps burn, all of tempo thresh barring postboard submerge and races maverick easily if protected. Stoneblades removal can be a problem with SCM but pinpoint discard + countermagic really improves this and stalkers clock is really only 3 turns to find an answer or lose. Tombstalker also laughs at counterbalance which is becoming more and more relevant. I switched from tempo thresh back to TA mainly for tombstalkers discard and blacks sideboard power and I havent looked back.

So anyway if what you got is working then by all means keep it, rogue decks are fucking cool. If not then I would suggest focusing more on one strategy or the other.

[rchinnock]

Tombstalker - Ultimately I agree that you should go either more aggro or more control. However, I don't think that the only viable control version of Esper blade is based around top and terminus. I used to play the following list, which for me worked very well:

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of X&Y
4 snapcaster mage
4 dark confidant
1 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 jace, the mindsculptor
22 lands (0-3 mishra's factories - to help out with equipment package, but which could easily become wastelands).

The thing I liked about the deck is that you were controlling but you had a lot of cheap and powerful cards. The main difference between it and other SFM lists was dark confidant, which could win the game on his own and, as I said, be played off of SFM effectively. Right now, in this meta, I would want more answers to nimble mongoose and combo, but otherwise, I like the deck still. I think that something like this, but somehow fitting 4 thoughtseize/inquisition effects into it, and having more ways to effectively deal with aggro decks (RUG/RU tempo and Maverick) would be pretty good. The best ways to do this would probably be EE/Liliana for the aggro problems (esp. Mongoose and Mother of Runes), and different counters (for combo - maybe spell pierce or some counterspells). You would probably have to cut the V-Clique or the Dark Confidants, but I do like both of them. Dark confidant might be too weak to most removal and spell snare, but he is really powerful. Possibly ponders could be cut for spell pierce, Vindicates for EE or Liliana. This is the general direction I have been going. Your advice has been very helpful, though, in trying to figure out how to make some kind of a list like this work. It may come down to either Dark Confidant or Jace, however, since you only have so many blue cards that you can cut, and only so many slow card-advantage stuff that you can play in addition to your removal, counters, discard, draw spells etc. But maybe they can both be fitted, i don't know. It is possible that simply the old UW Stoneblade list could be outfitted with discard and could be good. It could be something like this:

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
3 snapcaster mage
3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
2-3 spell snare/spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3-4 jace, the mind sculptor
22 lands (some number of factories or wastelands)

I am still convinced that V-Clique is very good against everything except lingering souls, and in general I think that it is actually better than lingering souls, working better with your other instant-speed stuff, disrupting combo, and being a faster clock in relation to its mana cost. So that's why there are three of them in there, and no lingering souls. This list is built to beat things besides Tom Martell's Esper Stoneblade, at the expense of being bad against his deck (or at least slightly dis-favored).

[Arsenal]

Hey Arsenal - Its very hard to resolve a batterskull against RUG or RU delver. They kill your stoneforge or counter it - almost every time. And then they wasteland and stifle your lands, while keeping daze, force, and spell pierce up, which make it literally almost impossible to resolve a 5 mana non-creature spell. In short, resolving batterskull is difficult, either via stoneforge, or through hard-casting it. By turn 4 or 5, however, tombstalker is a 2-3 mana spell that is easier to resolve: being both cheaper and immune to spell pierce. Also - its just more cards that do what batterskull does, in addition to being easier to resolve, and it is pretty good for those reasons, in my opinion. Its also a faster clock than anything else you have against combo and control, which seems good. Also, we put a lot of cards in the graveyard, even without snuff out or daze, and so I think that tombstalker is not at all awkward in a deck like this. You play 6-8 cantrips, 4 one-mana discard spells, 4 one-mana removal spells, 4-6 one-mana counterspells, 4 force of wills, and 9 fetch lands. By the time you are ready to cast a threat, tombstalker should be 2 mana, and therefore basically a flying Tarmogoyf that shrinks other people's tarmogoyfs.

Play Geist if putting control and combo on a fast clock if that's your rationale behind cutting Snapcaster for Stalker. Also, my re: Snuff out and daze was more about being able to tap out asap for a stalker while still being able to answer opponent threats, not about filling your yard. If you want to play stalker, discard, cantrips, counters, liliana and jace, shouldn't you just play a team america variant? Explain to me what stalker does for SFM-Jace decks that isnt already at our disposal.

[JBlaze]

@ rchinnock

Delver is pretty good against combo and Thresh. Against combo he gives you a cheap clock that is easy to play while leaving up counter mana, casting discard and using Wasteland. Against Thresh Delver blocks Mongoose and opposing Delvers. The counters they play are pretty bad against it and even if it just eats a bolt that helps you stick a Stoneforge Mystic.

I was surprised that you found Lingering Souls mediocre against Thresh. In my experience Lingering Souls is one of the key cards in the Thresh match up. I run two Intangible Virtue as part of my sideboard plan against them and have been impressed. They have a very hard time beating 2/2 vigilant spirits.

There are a lot of ways to build this deck. Most with valid arguments behind them (I can't really get behind the Tombstalker idea). It really all comes down to meta game and play style. My meta right now has quite a bit of Thresh and combo so I am sticking with Delver but there are certainly situations where other builds might be better.

[rchinnock]

Hey yeah I am not really up on the tombstalker idea I just posted it as an idea in response to a post from someone else suggesting a list with him in it. I think it might have a little potential, based on a Modern Esper control list that I played before the cantrips were banned, but there are probably better options in Legacy. The last list I have put up in my last post (the second list in the post) is the closest thing to what I would want to play right now, I think. V-Clique, Snapcaster, and Stoneforge are the main critters I want to play. Also regarding Lingering Souls against Thresh - maybe youre right, I should test it more. Lingering souls is great, and maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance. To recap, here is my current list:

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
3 snapcaster mage
2-3 vendillion clique
4 force of will
2-3 spell snare/spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3-4 jace, the mind sculptor
22 lands (some number of factories or wastelands)

[Malakai]

Terminus and Entreat are both so ridiculously good that I find any Blade Control list that doesn't play them to be suspect.

[FeSantacl]

thanks, you right have nice day :)

[Arsenal]

Terminus and Entreat are both so ridiculously good that I find any Blade Control list that doesn't play them to be suspect.

Miracle control, imo, is a completely different deck than Stoneblade. Miracle control eschews the SFM plan and goes all in on the traditional UW control board control-stabilize-then drop a bomb (Entreat, Jace, Elspeth) to win-plan. Well posititined deck in the meta as it beats Maverick pretty consistently. And has game versus Delver due to CounterTop and terminus. But miracle control isnt stoneblade.

[SupREME-10]

Miracle control, imo, is a completely different deck than Stoneblade. Miracle control eschews the SFM plan and goes all in on the traditional UW control board control-stabilize-then drop a bomb (Entreat, Jace, Elspeth) to win-plan. Well posititined deck in the meta as it beats Maverick pretty consistently. And has game versus Delver due to CounterTop and terminus. But miracle control isnt stoneblade.

I kind of agree and disagree with what your saying. I agree that some of the miracle cards are good enough to replace other cards from the traditional stoneblade deck; but I disagree that that would make it a whole new deck. I run an Azorus Stoneblade deck and I don't see how replacing wrath with entreats or replacing geist with R-Angel or even adding a couple terminus in the place of a ponder or a spell snare makes it a whole new deck type. I changed some 4-6 cards maindeck and actually have the same ratio of creatures, lands, and spells. Yes the deck hits the current meta a little better; but it actually still plays the stoneblade package and uses that as it's primary win-con. Then again I had 2x elspeth in the deck with 3x jace for months though, but having alternate win-cons is something I needed for my meta. Oh and although Terminus hits maverick and other aggro decks quite well, it doesn't fix every match up; although it really does help.

PS it is still Azorus Stoneblade to me, even if it is shifting a little to Azorus Stone-Miracle-Blade.

[Arsenal]

I kind of agree and disagree with what your saying. I agree that some of the miracle cards are good enough to replace other cards from the traditional stoneblade deck; but I disagree that that would make it a whole new deck. I run an Azorus Stoneblade deck and I don't see how replacing wrath with entreats or replacing geist with R-Angel or even adding a couple terminus in the place of a ponder or a spell snare makes it a whole new deck type. I changed some 4-6 cards maindeck and actually have the same ratio of creatures, lands, and spells. Yes the deck hits the current meta a little better; but it actually still plays the stoneblade package and uses that as it's primary win-con. Then again I had 2x elspeth in the deck with 3x jace for months though, but having alternate win-cons is something I needed for my meta. Oh and although Terminus hits maverick and other aggro decks quite well, it doesn't fix every match up; although it really does help.

PS it is still Azorus Stoneblade to me, even if it is shifting a little to Azorus Stone-Miracle-Blade.

Most Miracle lists run CounterTop, so that's 6-8 cards not found in Stoneblade. Entreat amd Terminus is another 4-6 cards. That's 10-14 cards; imo, enough to warrant a whole new decktype. Check the UW Control thread for Miracle business.

[rchinnock]

Also the only two Miracle UW Control lists that have placed in a Starcity 5K (or any other major tournament as far as I know) have not played stoneforge. They are literally an almost entirely different list. The common cards are: snapcaster, brainstorm, counterspell, Vendillion Clique, spell snare, Jace, and maybe Elspeth. These are cards that most UW decks would run, and don't make it the same archetype as Stoneblade.

[Fanne]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8341&iddeck=60781

Top8 at Bazaar of Moxen (722 players in the Legacy event)

This Deck combines SFM with Miracle spells, allthough interesting i think it was due to the miracles that the pilot placed good with the deck.

[AEnesidem]

we seem to forget that stoneblade also started with completely different cards. Standstill/ancestral visions for example. And esperblade also has entirely different cards than normal UW stoneblade and still they are in the same thread. So i guess miracle stoneblade is just another variation and is authorised to be discussed here.

[Malakai]

I run five miracles maindeck as well as the Stoneforge Mystic package and CounterTop. The decks are not fundamentally different, and it's not like regular stone blade is putting up any results.

[JimmyC27]

I run five miracles maindeck as well as the Stoneforge Mystic package and CounterTop. The decks are not fundamentally different, and it's not like regular stone blade is putting up any results.

What's your list? I've been playing the SFM + Miracles + CB deck too.

[rchinnock]

Malakai - normal Stoneblade has made some showings. It might be that it simply has to find a way to adapt to the current meta - not that it is necessarily worse than the Miracles control lists. Also - most of the Miracles lists that have been doing well (that is, all of the ones that one have placed in any Starcity 5k's) have not had stoneforge mystic. Not saying they shouldn't, but its not the norm. I think that there is probably a place in the meta for a more traditional stoneforge list - they have their own advantages that miracle lists don't - most notably the fact that they are more aggro-control, whereas the miracles lists are more controlling. They also tend to have more disruption against control (at least more than the miracle-stoneblade lists that don't run counterbalance), with discard and stuff. Not saying that traditional stoneforge is the right way to go, but I think it is definitely still a potentially viable option to pllay it without miracles.

[JBlaze]

Stoneblade and Counter Top are fundamentally different.The line has to be drawn somewhere. If you play Counter Top main you are playing a Counter Top deck even if you have Stoneforge as well. I would be interested to hear a moderators opinion on the subject.

I Went 4-0 at a small local tournament over the weekend playing an Esper list tuned to fight Thresh and combo. Delvers and Wastelands give you a lot more game against Thresh and combo. Intangible virtue in the sideboard was also pretty sweet. If I was able to play the GP in Atlanta this deck would be one of my top choices. Here is my list

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives


3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
2 Perish
2 Intangible Virtue
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vendillion clique
1 Disenchant
1 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Zealous Persecution

I played against
Punishing Zoo 2-0
Canadian thresh (2-1)
Canadian thresh (2-0)
Merfolk/w Chalice (2-0)

[Arsenal]

Why Therapy over Thoughtseize?

[SupREME-10]

Why Therapy over Thoughtseize?

The ability to hit more than 1 card at a time.
No loss of life.
Flashback (even though it can hurt).

Cheers and nice list even if I am not a fan of Esper and prefer Azorus.

[mini1337s]

As a Maverick player, it is difficult for us to deal with board sweeps or anytype, whether it is Pernicious Deed, Wrath, or Terminus. The downside to Terminus is that we can potentially Green Sun our targets back, but it does allow you to use your mana effectively. It seems better suited to a slow, grindy "Jace-em-out" deck though, more than a Lingering Souls list. Being able to slam a Terminus for W and follow up with a Jace is back-breaking enough that it should overcome most G/W games.
Entreat the Angels is another rough card for Maverick to deal with, but it's power might be dependant on the presence of BUG control in your meta. Seems fairly poor versus RUG as well, as it's too much of a late-game spell to matter.

Just observations from the darkside

[Lans89]

But 1/2 Mothers together with Gaddock Teeg (which I run main) = :cool: against CB Miracle! And postboard I bring in my Chokes that can win the match instantly =)!

Edit: Oh yeah, Blade Control is a different deck of course ;)! But that's not a bad matchup either..

[Arsenal]

I switched over to Esper from UW and have been shocked at how much smoother it feels. I think in the current meta, being proactive with Thoughtseize/Inquisition + Snapcaster Mage is a better plan than sitting back with counter mana up while not developing your board position. Lingering Souls has been a champ versus RUG Delver as I no longer feel I'm too threat-lite and have more disposable bodies to get there with Equipment.

The only issue I've run across is Wasteland. Both getting hit by my opponents and not being able to run a full set. I really, really liked having 5-7 basics + 4 Wasteland in a meta with Stifle/Wasteland + Thalia/Wasteland. I used to run 2 Wasteland in Esper, then decided to cut it out completely as Esper runs 21-22 land instead of UW's 24, and I really want to hit every land drop and tap out virtually every turn for something (turn 1 discard, turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Lingering Souls, turn 4 Jace, etc).

Also, I can't begin to say enough about having black for SB options like Perish. The number of times my opponent correctly put me on UW Stoneblade, GSZ up an early Teeg and I didn't have StP while holding Wrath/Terminus while he flooded the board with his men is enough to make me cry.

[JBlaze]

Black, out of the sideboard, helps a lot against Maverick. Game one is close but probably slightly in their favor. After sideboarding, the plan is to KILL EVERY FUCKING CREATURE THEY PLAY. This plan is very effective.

I have not played U/W Stoneblade very much recently. As far as I can tell Esper has better match ups across the board.

[chags]

As a Maverick player, it is difficult for us to deal with board sweeps or anytype, whether it is Pernicious Deed, Wrath, or Terminus. The downside to Terminus is that we can potentially Green Sun our targets back, but it does allow you to use your mana effectively. It seems better suited to a slow, grindy "Jace-em-out" deck though, more than a Lingering Souls list. Being able to slam a Terminus for W and follow up with a Jace is back-breaking enough that it should overcome most G/W games.
Entreat the Angels is another rough card for Maverick to deal with, but it's power might be dependant on the presence of BUG control in your meta. Seems fairly poor versus RUG as well, as it's too much of a late-game spell to matter.

Just observations from the darkside

If you can slip it through their counter magic entreat the angels is actually really good against RUG. Making 1 or 2 4/4s is enough, they have a very hard time dealing with bodies bigger then x/3.

[rchinnock]

The following list seems good to me:

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of X&Y
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
3 force of will
3 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
3 terminus
1 entreat the angels
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 island
1 plains
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 marsh flats

[matunos]

I would try to fit a Karakas in as well, cause Emrakul and Thalia are out there. I think you can afford to cut some of the off-color fetches (5 seems especially overkill).

[rchinnock]

I think you might be right. Karakas is good and the deck should probably play one. The reason I was thinking about maybe not playing one, and instead playing a marsh flats, is this: While you already play 4 flooded strand that can fetch a basic plains, I thought having another fetch that could get either tundra or a basic plains would be good in this deck because you have a number of spells that make basic plains extra important. You don't want them wasting your tundra during their turn, only to make it so you can't play your terminus that you just put on top with Sensei's Divining Top, or brainstorm'd into, or that you just top-deck'd. It also makes it significantly easier to resolve and activate stoneforge mystic. Playing a mystic into a wasteland when you used a tundra to cast it sucks, if you don't have another white source. But ya Karakas is good.

Any other suggestions about the list?

[matunos]

I think you might be right. Karakas is good and the deck should probably play one. The reason I was thinking about maybe not playing one, and instead playing a marsh flats, is this: While you already play 4 flooded strand that can fetch a basic plains, I thought having another fetch that could get either tundra or a basic plains would be good in this deck because you have a number of spells that make basic plains extra important. You don't want them wasting your tundra during their turn, only to make it so you can't play your terminus that you just put on top with Sensei's Divining Top, or brainstorm'd into, or that you just top-deck'd. It also makes it significantly easier to resolve and activate stoneforge mystic. Playing a mystic into a wasteland when you used a tundra to cast it sucks, if you don't have another white source. But ya Karakas is good.

Any other suggestions about the list?

If you're worried about getting stuck with a non-plains fetch land, in this case, I would say bump the number of Plains you have at the expense of non-plains fetch lands. In my experience with UW Stoneblade, though, it's not that often that it's an issue. Of course if you're really concerned about early Wastelands, you'll lower the Mishra's Factory count cause those usually have big targets on them (they're most useful in the early game, but that's also when it most hurts to lose a land). You might want to replace some or all of them with Wastelands of your own. If you want to keep the Mishra's, then I'd suggest a Crucible of Worlds somewhere to be able to recycle them, maybe in place of 1 Jace.

[matunos]

Another benefit of Crucible is that you can recycle fetches to shuffle if you don't like what Top shows. Otherwise, when you're not setting up a miracle, Top is like a bad Brainstorm.

That is, Top is great when you don't know what your next 3 cards are and Top lets you see/reorder them, but once you know what the next 3 are, if you know they don't really help you but you can't reshuffle, there's not a lot you can do about it (except fateseal yourself with Jace, I guess).

[supachai]

The following list seems good to me:

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sword of X&Y
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
3 force of will
3 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
3 terminus
1 entreat the angels
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 island
1 plains
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 marsh flats

I feel like 4 Tops is too much. They aren't great in multiples and we already need to put miracles back into our library. I've been liking 2 maindeck, maybe 3. Also, running more fetches greatly improves Top's power.

[rchinnock]

Supachai --- You might be right about the tops, but it hasn't been awkward for me yet. Here is my defense of playing 4 (I am not completely sure of these arguments, but here they are anyways):
I think 4 tops might be the number since you basically always want one of them, and if you get extras you can put them on top to draw a card and then use a shuffle effect. I've never really had a problem drawing too many, with 13 shuffle effects in the deck. For me it has been one of the most important cards in the deck, letting me fight through the land destruction of RUG delver by having really good filtering so I can draw more lands, and more generally allowing our deck to simply draw better than basically anyone else. I pretty much always want one top, preferably on the first turn.

If you were to cut one, what would you play instead? I can see playing a crucible instead, or maybe another force of will or spell pierce. Playing another V-Clique could also be good... Again not play 4 tops in this deck feels like not playing 4 tops in Countertop - why not just play 4 if it is so important and not really that awkward to get extras? Its not like drawing extra counterbalances where they are just literally useless.

And Matunos --- Yeah, crucible is sick, especially with wastelands. The reason I wanted to play factories was becasue they are really good with your equipment, but wasteland might be better. I feel like I'm not playing enoguh creatures without factories soemtimes, if I have stoneforge in my deck. But ya either way Crucible might be a good call - there should definitely at least be one or two in the sideboard, if not in the maindeck.

[rchinnock]

Another list I've been pondering, more aggressive than the Top/Terminus Stoneblade lists, or even the Lingering Souls lists, is something like this:

4 tarmogoyf
4 stoneforge mystic
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 sylvan library
3 jace, the mindsculptor
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine

3 wasteland
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
1 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains

Obviously, the biggest change is the addition of Goyf, in order to give you an actual clock against combo decks and a big beater that can't be killed by RUG's burn.

[Water_Wizard]

If you're going to splash G for Goyf, then you might as well splash red for REB, Lightning Bolts, and Ancient Grudge, then you might as well run a list like this: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=87837

Obviously, you can drop the CounterTop package for Stoneforge Mystic plus Equipments, but once you decide to add green, you open up your manabase to non-basic hate and the addition of red is worth the additional exposure.

However, why not keep it to two colors and run Delver instead of Goyf? I don't think Goyf and 1 Sylvan Library warrant splashing Green and Delver can be just as quick of a clock, if not quicker (if it flips turn 2, you are beating for 3 a turn, where Goyf doesn't even come online until turn 3 and it is usually a 3/4 vs. a combo deck (land, sorcery, instant).

[matunos]

RUG doesn't have a clock because one particular creature type. They have a clock because all of their creatures are exceedingly cheap (meaning they can get several out in a couple of turns), plus they have reach from burn.

Taking 1/3 of their aggressive creatures, whether it's Goyf, Delver or Mongoose doesn't make you aggressive enough to provide that kind of clock. I wouldn't add Delver or Goyf to Stoneblade unless you're going to fundamentally remake the list to be aggro, and then you're probably outside the scope of this thread (which is control); probably leaning closer to Bant (except they play Knights and Ooze over Goyf these days, but I could see a Delver/Goyf Bant list, sans GSZ). FWIW, I think Bant is going to be a good place to be.

But in terms of Stoneblade, focus on what the deck's good at: Counters, Clique, discard (if you're playing Esper), and if you want a clock, cheat your Batterskull out (Geist of St. Traft is a faster clock against Storm Combo and High Tide, but not as good against creature-based combo like SnT which can quickly overwhelm him). Mishra's are better against Storm, Wasteland is better is against SnT and RUG (since RUG will just Wasteland your Mishras, better to have your own Wastelands, or more basics/fetches).

[matunos]

Supachai --- You might be right about the tops, but it hasn't been awkward for me yet. Here is my defense of playing 4 (I am not completely sure of these arguments, but here they are anyways):
I think 4 tops might be the number since you basically always want one of them, and if you get extras you can put them on top to draw a card and then use a shuffle effect. I've never really had a problem drawing too many, with 13 shuffle effects in the deck. For me it has been one of the most important cards in the deck, letting me fight through the land destruction of RUG delver by having really good filtering so I can draw more lands, and more generally allowing our deck to simply draw better than basically anyone else. I pretty much always want one top, preferably on the first turn.

If you were to cut one, what would you play instead? I can see playing a crucible instead, or maybe another force of will or spell pierce. Playing another V-Clique could also be good... Again not play 4 tops in this deck feels like not playing 4 tops in Countertop - why not just play 4 if it is so important and not really that awkward to get extras? Its not like drawing extra counterbalances where they are just literally useless.

And Matunos --- Yeah, crucible is sick, especially with wastelands. The reason I wanted to play factories was becasue they are really good with your equipment, but wasteland might be better. I feel like I'm not playing enoguh creatures without factories soemtimes, if I have stoneforge in my deck. But ya either way Crucible might be a good call - there should definitely at least be one or two in the sideboard, if not in the maindeck.

I think if you're relying on Counterbalance, then yes, you need 4 Tops. If you're just adding the Tops to support miracles, though, I think it depends on your miracle density, because Brainstorm and Jace can let you time miracles as well.

[supachai]

Supachai --- You might be right about the tops, but it hasn't been awkward for me yet. Here is my defense of playing 4 (I am not completely sure of these arguments, but here they are anyways):
I think 4 tops might be the number since you basically always want one of them, and if you get extras you can put them on top to draw a card and then use a shuffle effect. I've never really had a problem drawing too many, with 13 shuffle effects in the deck. For me it has been one of the most important cards in the deck, letting me fight through the land destruction of RUG delver by having really good filtering so I can draw more lands, and more generally allowing our deck to simply draw better than basically anyone else. I pretty much always want one top, preferably on the first turn.

If you were to cut one, what would you play instead? I can see playing a crucible instead, or maybe another force of will or spell pierce. Playing another V-Clique could also be good... Again not play 4 tops in this deck feels like not playing 4 tops in Countertop - why not just play 4 if it is so important and not really that awkward to get extras? Its not like drawing extra counterbalances where they are just literally useless.


My list is slightly different. I don't rely as heavily on miracles (just 2 Terminus main, 1 side), so that may be why we have settled on different numbers of Tops. I will bump it up to 3 and try it. I still like playing Elspeth, but I'm willing to change. How does Entreat compare to Elspeth in your opinion?

^Agree with matunos.

[rchinnock]

Well, yeah, you might not always need a Top in this deck, since you do have brainstorms and Jace. However, I've always found getting a first turn top to be exactly what I want, especially with a basic island, and playing 4 helps this happen. And again, getting extras really isn't awkward most of the time, since you have a lot of ways to shuffle them away, and then they're just cantrips. So sure, its not like you NEED a top every game but its basically always good to have one. If I start finding it awkward I'll post about it but really as of now I think I like having 4 Tops.

Regarding Entreat vs. Elspeth - I'd run one of each if I had another slot for some big threat, but if you have to choose I;m not sure which is better. Entreat is obviously absurdly powerful, which is good. Elspeth is more consistent. Entreat, with Top, is an instant, which is also awesome. I've always found both to be good and I don't have a strong preference for either. I'd probably run one of each before I ran two of either, unless Entreat started seeming a lot better or worse than it does not.

[rchinnock]

And Matunos, in defense of the Bant list I posted, the reason for Goyf is two-fold (and I think these reasons have some validity, even if they don't ultimately justify Goyf's inclusion in the deck):

(1) Goyf gives you a clock when you cast him, without making you become an aggro deck. Sure you won't always cast him and so you won't always get a clock from him, but he does indisputably make the deck faster than it is without him in it. He plays a role kind of like Lingering Souls, except instead of giving your card advantage and a lot of gas, he gives you another big-ish body that can do what critters do, without making you sacrifice the deck's controlling aspects. He also makes you tap out less than lingering souls, and in this way he works better with your counter-magic.

And reason #(2): He is good against RUG because he doesn't die to burn as easily as stoneforge, and can help deal with their mongooses and their goyfs to some extant. Not dying to burn is the same thing that makes tombstalker good against RUG, as well as Batterskull: it can give you a foothold in your defensive efforts (and a clock if you start actually gaining control of the game) that they can't just kill for one mana with a lightning bolt or forked bolt, like they can with Stoneforge. And this is the reason that I don't want to play delver - it just dies to burn. It doesn't help you against RUG, which is one thing that is good about Goyf.

For these reasons, I think Goyf may be playable in a deck like this. BUG control plays him without going aggro, as did Next Level Blue and other such decks. He is a good blocker and goes fine with a more controlling game-plan, but once you cast him you can suddenly go aggro-control, without having to really put in much effort. Stoneforge doesn't allow you to do this as easily, since they can just bolt her, and since it takes longer to set her up. Do these arguments explain the deck idea a little better? Again, here is an example list (which would probably have to be tweaked quite a bit):

4 tarmogoyf
4 stoneforge mystic
2 vendillion clique
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
2 spell snare
2 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
1 sylvan library
3 jace, the mindscultptor
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine

3 wasteland
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
1 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains

[supachai]

Well, yeah, you might not always need a Top in this deck, since you do have brainstorms and Jace. However, I've always found getting a first turn top to be exactly what I want, especially with a basic island, and playing 4 helps this happen. And again, getting extras really isn't awkward most of the time, since you have a lot of ways to shuffle them away, and then they're just cantrips. So sure, its not like you NEED a top every game but its basically always good to have one. If I start finding it awkward I'll post about it but really as of now I think I like having 4 Tops.

Regarding Entreat vs. Elspeth - I'd run one of each if I had another slot for some big threat, but if you have to choose I;m not sure which is better. Entreat is obviously absurdly powerful, which is good. Elspeth is more consistent. Entreat, with Top, is an instant, which is also awesome. I've always found both to be good and I don't have a strong preference for either. I'd probably run one of each before I ran two of either, unless Entreat started seeming a lot better or worse than it does not.

Hmm, I think one of each may be a fair compromise. I do like the consistency of Elspeth (assembling Elspeth + Jace almost guarantees victory), whereas Entreat is more of an oops, I win card. Also, if you manage to keep the board clean for the first few turns, or Clique turn 3, Elspeth is a great follow-up on turn 4. Its extremely difficult for them to come back if their board is empty. Although 3 or 4 4/4 angels can be equally backbreaking, I've never really had a problem winning with just Elspeth. You can also cast Terminus with Elspeth out, but not after you've resolved Entreat (although you probably won't need to). But I will try 1 of each and see how it goes.

Also, sorry if this has been brought up before, but what's people's opinions on Spell Snare vs. Spell Pierce. It seems a lot of decks are ditching Snare in favor of Pierce, either to free up sideboard space, or simply because its more relevant now that we have mass creature removal. I haven't really had a problem with Snare, but there are a lot of things that it doesn't hit, mostly in the combo matchups (SnT, Reanimator, Dredge). Spell Pierce would probably be better here, although I do run a couple in the side. Is some combination on Snare and Pierce best in the main? How does this affect # of Counterspells/Fows we run?

[lavafrogg]

This might be a dumb question, but are there any U/W Delver Blade lists running around that I cannot seem to find?

4 Delver
4 SFM
4 SCM

Seems like a good place to start a decklist...

[supachai]

This might be a dumb question, but are there any U/W Delver Blade lists running around that I cannot seem to find?

4 Delver
4 SFM
4 SCM

Seems like a good place to start a decklist...

Click (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=stoneforge+mystic%3B+snapcaster+mage%3B+delver+of+secrets&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on)

TC Decks is a great site for tournament lists. Anyhow, I think lists that contain Delver play fundamentally different from what we traditionally consider to be "UW Blade Control": almost none of them run Jace, and almost all of them run Geist, making the deck very aggressive.

[lavafrogg]

The most successful list calls itself "tempoblade" and runs delver, stoneforge, Snapcaster and mindcensor. Why does the inclusion of jace make it a stoneblade list? Shouldn't the inclusion of stoneforge insinuate that?

[supachai]

It's all semantics really. They keyword isn't stoneblade but control. That deck is simply more tempo and less control. You typically find Jace in control decks, not so much in tempo decks.

[Dzra]

Does Land Tax affect us at all? Stoneblade is definitely missing something lately to make it feel on par with the format's heavy hitters. I don't think Land Tax is it, but maybe it'll help.

[matunos]

Does Land Tax affect us at all? Stoneblade is definitely missing something lately to make it feel on par with the format's heavy hitters. I don't think Land Tax is it, but maybe it'll help.

Land Tax is an *awesome* anti-LD card (if you have the basics to support it). I won't be surprised if it's at least good enough for the sideboard.

I am genuinely shocked that they unbanned it, and happy to still have a few copies. I guess they figure with all the duals and fetches, most decks don't care. Maybe they're right.

But anyway, that settles it: my copies of Balance aren't going anywhere!

[lordofthepit]

Does Land Tax affect us at all? Stoneblade is definitely missing something lately to make it feel on par with the format's heavy hitters. I don't think Land Tax is it, but maybe it'll help.


Land Tax is an *awesome* anti-LD card. I won't be surprised if it's at least good enough for the sideboard.

I am genuinely shocked that they unbanned it, and happy to still have a few copies!

That settles it: my copies of Balance aren't going anywhere!

I don't think so. Land Tax is a conditional card advantage source at the cost of terrible tempo disadvantage and restrictive deck requirements. Unlike Type 2 in 1996, Legacy is a tempo-driven format.

Life from the Loam + Jace/Brainstorm >>> Land Tax + any combo (Scroll Rack) I can think of.

Edit: I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I'm sitting on 4 Legends Land Taxes and 3 4th Edition ones. I had the option of buying some a few minutes after the B&R update before prices had gone up, but I passed on it.

[matunos]

I don't think so. Land Tax is a conditional card advantage source at the cost of terrible tempo disadvantage and restrictive deck requirements. Unlike Type 2 in 1996, Legacy is a tempo-driven format.

Life from the Loam + Jace/Brainstorm >>> Land Tax + any combo (Scroll Rack) I can think of.

Edit: I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I'm sitting on 4 Legends Land Taxes and 3 4th Edition ones. I had the option of buying some a few minutes after the B&R update before prices had gone up, but I passed on it.

Yeah I stepped back from my original comments a bit because I re-read it and noticed the word "basic". It might work for protection in UW (which actually has basics that you haven't already fetched), but that definitely makes it more marginal.

[rchinnock]

If we did have enough basics land tax would definitely be powerful against any LD strategy, since all they really have to do is destroy one land of yours and you probably will get 3 out of the deal. I can also see it being great in control mirrors. On the one hand, you do need a lot of basics. On the other hand, I can see the deck running less fetch lands or maybe less tundras (or just less lands in general?) if it runs a significant number of land tax's, since you won't need as much fixing with the uber-fixing of three basic lands. Its good with brainstorm I guess, since it shuffles, and since you can shuffle lands you get with it away. But ... you can't actually put into play as many lands as you otherwise would? It seems like a weird mix of a lot of power and a lot of awkwardness. Maybe Life from the Loam and Crucible are just better, but it does seem to have the potential to be very abusable. It could be awesome with something like Armageddon or just in a stacks-ish deck (with a heavily modified land suite, obviously) - any deck where you both destroy your lands and your opponents, where you non-basics count more so you don't need as many lands out as them, and where you have artifact mana, it seems like it could be cool.

[Dzra]

Don't forget you can Stifle Land Tax also. It only buys them a turn, but then that's what tempo decks are about anyways.

On a totally different note, I've been thinking about Restoration Angel. Flash/Flying is very relevant and the 3/4 body is very relevant. The ability works very well with SFM, Taigo, and Clique. I'm going to try 2-3 in the spot that I previously had used for Elspeth. Elspeth is still very good, but it's probably time for a change. All the fair decks are packing fliers and all the unfair decks would love nothing more than for you to tap out on your turn.

[arcannys]

I've been working on a list with restoratio angel. And i'll be playing it for the first time this weekend in a GPT Ghent.

Here are a few notes if you're willing to try them:

Restoration angel is great against canadian threshold, but the 4cc makes it a bit sketchy. I wouldnt run the angel without at least 2 cavern of souls in the 75. Right now i'm playing 1 cavern MD and 1 in the board for the RUG tempo MU and the other control MUs. Extra lands on those MU are always welcome.
Plus caverns are great to sneak in a vendilion clique, an snapcaster or a fettergeist (this guy is awesome, put it in your sideboard.).

[Malakai]

Has anyone had any success with running both Stoneforge and Terminus? It seems rather...awkward.

[Anusien]

No more than Terminus and Entreat the Angels.

[Malakai]

No more than Terminus and Entreat the Angels.

Care to expand on that? One card is a late game finisher, another is something else entirely.

[Water_Wizard]

Has anyone had any success with running both Stoneforge and Terminus? It seems rather...awkward.

There are two lists with SFM and Terminus on page 55 (post #1088). These lists represent some of the early iterations of UW with Miracles. It seems recently, there has been a split to the old UW Stoneblade lists and the 'new' UW Miracle lists (running perhaps a few SCM and V. Cliques, but not SFM).

I'm interested in a list that runs both SFM and Terminus. Do you have any suggestions?

[matunos]

If you don't want to cycle your SFM, don't cast Terminus.

I'm just speculating here, but it seems like Terminus could work very well with SFM and Batterskull. You can Terminus and still keep the Batterskull (you'll have to bounce it or re-equip it, obviously). If you have enough mana and a Top, you can vial the Batterskull and then cast Terminus in response so your Batterskull comes down on an empty board.

At any rate, Terminus/Countertop lets you play a more controlling game, so you don't need to be as quick to slap down a Stoneforge. It becomes your late game play just like Entreat would, except against creature-light decks you have to race (like Burn) in which you want the Batterskull out as soon as possible. That's flexibility you don't get with Entreat.

[Stan]

I'm working on a list that has SFM (3) maindeck, and 2 Terminus in the side. The deck has 2 Elspeth and 3 Jace, so in the matchups where Terminus comes in, I'll also put Ensnaring bridge in, take out the equipment, and go all in on the planeswalker kill.

If anybody is interested:


Wasteland 2
Plains 1
Island 2
Mountain 1
Karakas 1
Glacial Fortress 1
Flooded Strand 4
Arid Mesa 2
Scalding Tarn 2
Tundra 4
Plateau 1
Volcanic Island 2
Sensei's Divining Top 2
Engineered Explosives 1
Umezawa's Jitte 1
Batterskull 1
Swords to Plowshares 4
Elspeth, Knight Errant 2
Stoneforge Mystic 3
Brainstorm 4
Spell Pierce 2
Spell Snare 2
Force of Will 4
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 3
Snapcaster Mage 4
Lightning Bolt 3
Grim Lavamancer 1

side:


Sensei's Divining Top 1
Engineered Explosives 1
Sword of Fire and Ice 1
Disenchant 1
Terminus 2
Counterbalance 3
Surgical Extraction 2
Pyroblast 3
Grim Lavamancer 1

I still need to figure out what to cut from the side for Ensnaring bridge. I think I'll take out the lavamancer, the Explosives and one Pyroblast.

[learntolove6]

I run 2 Terminus in the main and it's bonkers. I can't express how the card takes the list over the top. My list for reference:

4 SFM
3 SCM
2 Clique
3 Jace
4 Brainstorm
4 StP
2 Terminus
1 EtA
2 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Spell Pierce
4 FoW
1 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of FaF

4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

This list is vcery dependent on the Brainstorms, which is the one issue with the deck, but Terminus is just such a powerhouse. It might be slightly awkward if you go T2 Stoneforge, T3 draw Terminus, but that's only if their board is worth using it on T3, and it's NOT that bad either way.

[rchinnock]

I've personally found that playing with 3-4 tops and 3-4 terminus is the way to go, since doing 2/2 or something like that is too awkward. Plus, you can cycle extra tops away anyways with a fetchland or a stoneforge (or any shuffle effect - ponder works too). Plus, terminus is good in all your worst matchups, so there's no reason not to play more. Some people disagree about running 4 tops, but its always been great for me in this deck. Here's the list I was playing for a while, which, while it might need some work, is a good start (I think).

4 stoneforge mystic
3 vendillion clique (or try to put some snapcasters in too, I'm not sure what the best blend is)
4 force of will
4 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 sword to plowshares
3 terminus
1 entreat the angels (could be a 4th terminus, depending on your meta)
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine (or jitte, or some other sword)
3 jace, the mindsculptor (could be 3 Jace and 1 elspeth)

4 wasteland
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 island
1 plains
1 karakas

[supachai]

Here's my list I've been tweaking over the past couple weeks. I believe its pretty well tuned.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Glacial Fortress

SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements

Stoneforge Mystic and Terminus seem contradictory at first, but if you just play smart, its not really ever a dilemma. If the board is overwhelming you anyway, sacrificing a Stoneforge Mystic often isn't a big deal. If you wipe the board, Elspeth tokens and Factory can easily pick up the Jitte you tutored for or simply drop the Batterskull in your hand-Stoneforge has served its purpose. In fact, Stoneforge often encourages your opponents to drop more creatures, and I would gladly trade my Stoneforge for another creature in their hand (and the loss in tempo for them). Stoneforge often finds itself chumping a bigger dude anyway and in that sense it saves your life total while drawing out threats for you to clear away with Terminus.

Seriously guys. Play Terminus and Top. It has truly been unreal...so many games that I would have no chance of winning if not for Terminus. The one thing I'm debating is Spell Pierce vs. Spell Snare. Pierce is likely better in today's meta, but it's often quite bad since I'm not running Wastelands to go with them. As much as I want to fit Wastelands in, I find that Factory has saved my ass just as many times, and it doesn't take away from our total land count (Wasteland is basically a spell). Still not sure, what do you guys think?


If you don't want to cycle your SFM, don't cast Terminus.

I'm just speculating here, but it seems like Terminus could work very well with SFM and Batterskull. You can Terminus and still keep the Batterskull (you'll have to bounce it or re-equip it, obviously). If you have enough mana and a Top, you can vial the Batterskull and then cast Terminus in response so your Batterskull comes down on an empty board.



From the last four posts (including mine), I think we pretty much agree that Terminus is amazing.

[matunos]

IMO, 2 Terminus (+1 in the side) isn't enough to justify 3 SDT. I'd either see if I could fit the 3rd Terminus maindeck plus an Entreat (maybe in place of Elspeth?), or Counterbalance, to make more use of the Top, or consider replacing them with Ponder. Or, you could experiment with Land Tax + Scroll Rack and be our Ginea pig.. ;-)

[supachai]

IMO, 2 Terminus (+1 in the side) isn't enough to justify 3 SDT. I'd either see if I could fit the 3rd Terminus maindeck plus an Entreat (maybe in place of Elspeth?), or Counterbalance, to make more use of the Top, or consider replacing them with Ponder. Or, you could experiment with Land Tax + Scroll Rack and be our Ginea pig.. ;-)

That's what I thought at first too, and ran fewer Tops. But the more I played it, the more I realized how good Top was to the deck in general, not just for Miracles. It smooths out draws so much, and with 9 fetches, can immensely improve our card selection. If I have one in play, I seem to always be able to find what I need, whether it be a land, counterspell, removal, or win condition. I honestly think its good enough to justify its own inclusion.

I would run more Terminus main, as it has been amazing, but I really don't know what to cut. I don't want to go below our 9 counters threshold. Entreat in place of Elspeth is something I'm open to, but I tend to enjoy winning through incremental card advantage, not big flashy finishers. I tried Counterbalance before and found it wasn't doing enough...our curve kinda sucks and dropping it turn 2 is quite vulnerable. I've never had a problem countering key threats. Do you personally like Counterbalance main?

As for Land Tax, I think if anything it would belong in a more control build, probably closer to Miracle Control. Unfortunately, I don't have the time and money to test Land Tax at this moment :/

[TkDodo]

I also don't think that playing 3 Tops can be wrong - no matter how many Miracles you jam maindeck. Top is very strong on its own.
However, with 3 Tops, I think 3 CB in the board is justifiable. I don't like them Maindeck that much because they don't do enough against Maverick and Sneak/Show. CB is of course very good against RUG and other combos (Reanimator, Storm), so having them in the board as additional counters seems good.

Here is what I am trying at the moment:


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

3 Terminus
1 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas


SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterbalance
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Terminus


The maindeck Ponder could probably be something else, but I don't want to clutter the list with another high cc spell (EtA, ORing, Elspeth or something similar). The 4th SFM is also not needed imo - at least I'm almost never on the plan of playing one on T2.

The board also could use some work as it's currently very weak to e.g. Sneak/Show.

[supachai]

@TkDodo

I like this list, it's similar in many ways to mine. Always good to see confirmation of my choices and results. A couple questions though. Without Elspeth/Entreat/only 1 Mishra's, do you find that you have trouble finding a win condition on time?

I've been thinking about dropping a Mystic lately...I often find extra's in my hand doing nothing. I'm just hesitant since the first one often gets countered, and finding equipment and sticking bodies helps a lot. Having two can also be great since the first one gets you Jitte, and your opponent likely will not kill it immediately, waiting for you to equip. Then you play a second one, and can "vial" in Batterskull immediately. I don't think drawing 2 is ever bad-any more become extraneous but we do have Jace/Top/Bstorm to avoid that.

[TkDodo]

@TkDodo

I like this list, it's similar in many ways to mine. Always good to see confirmation of my choices and results. A couple questions though. Without Elspeth/Entreat/only 1 Mishra's, do you find that you have trouble finding a win condition on time?

I've been thinking about dropping a Mystic lately...I often find extra's in my hand doing nothing. I'm just hesitant since the first one often gets countered, and finding equipment and sticking bodies helps a lot. Having two can also be great since the first one gets you Jitte, and your opponent likely will not kill it immediately, waiting for you to equip. Then you play a second one, and can "vial" in Batterskull immediately. I don't think drawing 2 is ever bad-any more become extraneous but we do have Jace/Top/Bstorm to avoid that.

Are you splashing red as well? If so, how does your board look like?

I haven't had issues finding win conditions in time so far - I pretty much play as many win conditions as in the times before Terminus (-1 SFM actually), but I believe Jaces are a lot stronger right now, because you get to land them more often on empty boards thanks to Terminus.

Regarding the 4th SFM: Sure, he's probably almost never "dead", but I think it's about optimizing the main deck. I believe he is not needed, and space is generally tight, so we can probably find a better card in that slot. Truth is, I haven't so far ;) The one off Ponder has actually not been that relevant for me in the early game, as I rarely have the mana capacity to tap for it T1 or T2 (keeping mana open for Spell Pierce, CSpell, BS or even just bluffing those). In the late game, a SFM is almost always one of the better things you could find with a Ponder anyway, so you might as well play the 4th SFM.

I dunno, but I begin to like something like Shackles in that spot, or maybe an EE.

[Artlee]

SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterbalance
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Terminus




If you are splashing red for REB why not put one single Engineered Explosives instead of either Elspeth or the lone Terminus? Serves quite same purpose but can also deal with other permanents as well. The SB looks quite geared towards aggro already with the paths.

[matunos]

If you are splashing red for REB why not put one single Engineered Explosives instead of either Elspeth or the lone Terminus? Serves quite same purpose but can also deal with other permanents as well. The SB looks quite geared towards aggro already with the paths.

Replacing the SB Terminus with an EE sounds fine, but I don't think an EE meets the same slot that the Elspeth is meant for. That is, EE isn't a wincon, Elspeth is. Typically you bring in Elspeth for matchups in which Elspeth is either just really good by herself, and/or you're siding out 1-2 JTMS due to expectations of REBs.

Since the list above has 2 main win conditions (Batterskull or planeswalker; yes, the Sword/Jitte can get there, but the decklist only has 8 creatures other than the Germ, and they're all relatively fragile), I wouldn't want to lose one of those options post-board just because your opponent is packing REBs, especially considering there's a good chance they're gonna be packing some level of artifact hate as well.

Replacing Elspeth with another wincon (e.g. Entreat the Angels) would be reasonable, though. Elspeth vs. Entreat is a good debate; in this case I think Entreat should be considered because you're already set up with the SDT plan, and your list is light on creatures, so you might not have someone to jump with Elspeth once you get her resolved, meaning you need to be able to create soldiers that stick around long enough for you to start jumping one of them instead of just chump-blocking. 1+ 4/4 flying Angels don't have this problem. Granted, they have their own weaknesses (EE, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Echoing Truth, etc.), so it comes down to a meta call.

Also, arguably the Paths are superfluous since you're already running 4 StP, 3-4 Terminus and also the REB/Pyroblasts. For this reason, I would definitely consider replacing the Paths either with EE, or some other non-creature hate, depending on what's in your meta (Show and Tell [Gilded Drake, Metamorph]? mirror [Disenchants]? Esperblade [Sulfur Elemental]? Storm [Flusterstorm, Canonist, etc.])... unless your meta is just dominated by aggro.

[supachai]

Are you splashing red as well? If so, how does your board look like?

I haven't had issues finding win conditions in time so far - I pretty much play as many win conditions as in the times before Terminus (-1 SFM actually), but I believe Jaces are a lot stronger right now, because you get to land them more often on empty boards thanks to Terminus.

Regarding the 4th SFM: Sure, he's probably almost never "dead", but I think it's about optimizing the main deck. I believe he is not needed, and space is generally tight, so we can probably find a better card in that slot. Truth is, I haven't so far ;) The one off Ponder has actually not been that relevant for me in the early game, as I rarely have the mana capacity to tap for it T1 or T2 (keeping mana open for Spell Pierce, CSpell, BS or even just bluffing those). In the late game, a SFM is almost always one of the better things you could find with a Ponder anyway, so you might as well play the 4th SFM.

I dunno, but I begin to like something like Shackles in that spot, or maybe an EE.

Unfortunately I don't have Volcanic Islands, so I'm not playing a red splash. I think either way there are advantages and disadvantages. My mana base is incredibly steady. 6 basics and 9 fetches means im pretty resistant to Wasteland. I think depending on your meta, splashing red for REB and Explosives can be very good. REB hits SnT, Jace, and Delver, three of the format's main win conditions right now. Explosives is similarly great against Storm Combo and Lingering Souls. (Man, I wish I had some Volcanic Islands).

I'm still not a fan of Counterbalance in the board (or the main). What do you board it in against? Storm? Much too risky to tap out turn 2 when you could have Counterspell or Spell Pierce up. Delver? By the time you can find it the game is usually decided already. Additionally, with Cavern of Souls running around and our shitty curve (0-3 cards at 3 CMC), I can't justify 3 slots. We also don't have Ponders to dig for them :/

Other than that though, sideboard looks good. I've been meaning to test 1 Elspeth/1 Entreat in the main. How has the sideboard plan worked out for you?

[Malakai]

This thread needs moar Humility.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm having issues playing against Blade Control, and I'm wondering if you guys could help me out.

I play a primarily creature based deck. I'm getting nailed to the wall by StP + Snaps for StP. Is it worth it for me to bring in Surgical Extraction to blank your Snapcasters?

[MD.Ghost]

This thread needs moar Humility. Yeah, it is a good tool to fight sneak&show, reanimate, maverick and so on - but it also shut down our snapcaster&stoneforge (clique) engine. With Humility, we need Equipment or Planeswalker to rule the board situation.

@Mirrislegend: what colours you play? I think Surgical can work, but typically you need also ways to fight path,wrath and other sideboardhate against creature based decks.

[lavafrogg]

Yeah, it is a good tool to fight sneak&show, reanimate, maverick and so on - but it also shut down our snapcaster&stoneforge (clique) engine. With Humility, we need Equipment or Planeswalker to rule the board situation.


Its a good thing that you run equipment, planeswalkers and man lands to break the symmetry. Pridemage is most decks de facto artifact/enchantment removal right now so humility is an absolute beast against many of the formats decks.

[Artlee]

I agree Humility is really good in todays meta. I am running Tkdodo's list and I am really enjoying it. I think there is room for change in the sideboard, but I play mostly on mws so I run into alot of different decks.

I think I would swap the relic or 1 surgical for a Humility, as it is really good with Elspeth.

[Malakai]

So I now have 1 Humility maindeck...

[matunos]

What's the theory with Humility? Is it mainly anti-Griselbrand tech? If so, why not Gilded Drake instead?

Updated:

Oh, missed the mention of Qasali above.

I don't like the idea of needing all your own guys though, unless you're gonna run 4 manlands, I guess. 4 mana (5 if Thalia is out, none if Teeg is) is a lot. I like Cursed Totem for anti-Maverick/Elves/etc. It hurts SFM, but you still get the tutor.

[Malakai]

The thought was basically this:
When Humility--a card that is already backbreaking against aggro--is also good against both of the best combo decks, it's time to play it in the main.

Of note: the Humility is my 5th 4-drop.

[JimmyC27]

Malaki: Do you have a list posted somewhere with the Humility inclusion?

[Dzra]

Humility seems like it would be pretty lackluster in creature MUs unless we already had out a Batterskull or Elspeth (or Moat). Humility negates every advantage our creatures would give us and they will definitely have the numbers advantage. I don't see the advantage over Cursed Totem or Guilded Drake.

[Artlee]

Humility seems like it would be pretty lackluster in creature MUs unless we already had out a Batterskull or Elspeth (or Moat). Humility negates every advantage our creatures would give us and they will definitely have the numbers advantage. I don't see the advantage over Cursed Totem or Guilded Drake.

Maverick has better creatures than we do, but we have the ability to equip ours. While Maverick also has Jitte in most recent lists, we have brainstorm, jace and ponder to dig for it.

It also seems like Goblins, Merfolk and other tribal decks are gaining popularity with Cavern of souls.

On the other hand both Gilded Drake and Cursed Totem have lower converted mana cost, but it does handle Griselbrand with Lifelink, a big Knight of the Reliquary etc.

[Dzra]

Right, but turning everyone's creatures into vanilla 1/1's doesn't help when they still have 2-3 times more creatures than us. Humility is a good card, but it's best put to use in a creatureless style deck like planeswalker control. You need to back it up with Moat or some other way to break the symmetry.

Hand disruption, a tuned counter suite, and incremental advantage are our best bets at doing well. Cursed Totem is the closest thing to a trump that we have and I'm still not sure it's worth the space over more conventional disruption.

[Malakai]

If only I had something like Batterskull, Jitte, Elspeth, Jace, or Mishra's Factory to break the symmetry.

[lavafrogg]

If only I had something like Batterskull, Jitte, Elspeth, Jace, or Mishra's Factory to break the symmetry.

I see what you did there.

[Dzra]

Hey no need to get sassy. I'm simply saying that there are better decks to abuse Humility than a deck full of creatures with really good abilities.

On a different note, I've been trying the Black splash lately. I feel that as the meta is getting more diverse, my conditional counters are getting worse. After playing around with Spell Pierce/discard splits, I think I might just go all in discard... Something like 3/3 IoK/Thoughtseize. The problem is that relying on discard too much is generally bad for your tempo and makes you more vulnerable to top decks.

Also, while Lingering Souls is powerful, I'm not a big fan of it MD atm... and possibly not even in the SB.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

What about going 2/2 Split on discard and carrying 2 Engineered Explosives maindecked?

Sure they are worse against Reanimator/SNT, but the are awesome against Maverick and RUG.

[Dzra]

What about going 2/2 Split on discard and carrying 2 Engineered Explosives maindecked?

Sure they are worse against Reanimator/SNT, but the are awesome against Maverick and RUG.

Yeah, EE is a great card, but I'm probably keeping it to my SB for now. My meta has a lot more combo and control than RUG/Maverick. For now I'm running a Vindicate and a Zealous Persecution in those auxiliary removal slots.

Has anyone thought about a couple Liliana? It would probably encourage running Lingering Souls over Clique (which is really strong atm), but either way it seems like a strong control card that's mostly overlooked in UWx Stoneblade. Perhaps the double Black would be too color intensive?

[mike1987]

This is my current list:


4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Lab
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder
1 Spell pierce
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Perish
2 Surgical extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
2 Disenchant
1 Gilded Drake
1 Humility
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Spell pierce
1 Nihil Spellbomb


Was wondering do you guys have any tips to win U/W miracles? Been playtesting with my friend a few times and I have lost almost all of them. Terminus, plus swords to control the tempo. Countertop lock and entreat the angels/jace win con.

[Dzra]

Was wondering do you guys have any tips to win U/W miracles? Been playtesting with my friend a few times and I have lost almost all of them. Terminus, plus swords to control the tempo. Countertop lock and entreat the angels/jace win con.

I would think that more Cliques (over Lingering Souls probably) would be great. You can respond to the Miracle trigger by sending their miracle card to the bottom. A second Counterspell wouldn't hurt also. EE seems solid.

[GreenHornet]

You can respond to the Miracle trigger by sending their miracle card to the bottom.

You can? I didn't realize it was a triggered ability. That's pretty ridiculous tech.

[Jessenator]

You can? I didn't realize it was a triggered ability. That's pretty ridiculous tech.

What about milling them with Thought Scour?

[Blitzbold]

What about milling them with Thought Scour?

This won't work because how the Miracle ability is worded. Clique otoh looks at the cards at their hand which includes any miracle card just drawn.

[Dzra]

Yeah, Thought Scour is only good here if you know they put the miracle on top. Clique hits them after they reveal it.

Also, I really like the Trinket Mage package from the SCG winning list and have been thinking about something along those lines also (although I'd probably like to bump it to 2 Trinket Mages if there's room). Trinket Mage for an EE and a Top MD, with Pithing Needle, Cage, and maybe a Meekstone in the SB sounds really solid.

What about his idea of dropping Jace and Clique down to 2-ofs? I'm hesitant to drop Jace down from 3, but he is rather high on the curve and adding a tutorable Top should make it easier to find ways of ending the game.

[Jessenator]

Yeah, Thought Scour is only good here if you know they put the miracle on top. Clique hits them after they reveal it.

Also, I really like the Trinket Mage package from the SCG winning list and have been thinking about something along those lines also (although I'd probably like to bump it to 2 Trinket Mages if there's room). Trinket Mage for an EE and a Top MD, with Pithing Needle, Cage, and maybe a Meekstone in the SB sounds really solid.

What about his idea of dropping Jace and Clique down to 2-ofs? I'm hesitant to drop Jace down from 3, but he is rather high on the curve and adding a tutorable Top should make it easier to find ways of ending the game.

I don't think the deck is about the Trincket Mage package, dedicated deck run 3 of. You have enough creature and spells you want to be playing, I doubt you want multiple Trinckets in the main board. I would like another Engineered Explosives though, that card is very good against the meta, even proving to be useful against Storm (TES) decks since it can blow up Lion's Eye, Lotus Petal, and Chrome Mox..

I don't like a Blade deck that has less than 3 Jace. After swording and Inquisition their threat, assuming you have a snapcaster, you have a chance to eliminate 2 of their threats. There's often a time period where the opponent is setting up or drawing into his next threat. You want to use that time gap to tap out for the best threat and stabilize.

I have put a Trinket Mage in the side board for longer / grindier games against control or decks that I need 0-1 CC artifacts. Vendillion at 2 has been okay for me, I may for 1 for the 2nd Explosives in the main. But the Vendillion against most decks are ... very good. At worst it trades with a Delver or a flier and blanks their threats for you to drop Jace.

[Dzra]

I like Trinket Mage better than the second EE basically because you don't always want the EE even in the MUs where it's good. If I'm looking at an empty board VS RUG, I'd rather be Maging into Top than drawing an EE.

[Dzra]

Two Stoneblades in the top 8 and this thread is still dead. The trend seems to be more EE + Academy Ruins and less Jace, less Lingering Souls, and less Cliques... to Trinket Mage or not to Trinket Mage? Spell Snares are SB (if that). A miser Dust Bowl seems to be the hot tech for late game utility land removal. Sometimes there's a lonely Vindicate. A 2/2 split of discard with 2-3 Spell Pierce and a Counterspell seem to be the disruption of choice. A lot of lists are dropping to 3 SCM.

[matunos]

Two Stoneblades in the top 8 and this thread is still dead. The trend seems to be more EE + Academy Ruins and less Jace, less Lingering Souls, and less Cliques... to Trinket Mage or not to Trinket Mage? Spell Snares are SB (if that). A miser Dust Bowl seems to be the hot tech for late game utility land removal. Sometimes there's a lonely Vindicate. A 2/2 split of discard with 2-3 Spell Pierce and a Counterspell seem to be the disruption of choice. A lot of lists are dropping to 3 SCM.

Most of which seems based on http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24432-My-Last-Article-About-Stoneblade-Ever-I-Promise-GP-Atlanta-12th.html

[rxavage]

I've really been torn between esperblade and uwmiracles. I think blade fits my playstyle a bit better. And I've been contemplating running intuition/unburial rites/griselbrand in the sb. What do you guys think?

[Valtrix]

I've really been torn between esperblade and uwmiracles. I think blade fits my playstyle a bit better. And I've been contemplating running intuition/unburial rites/griselbrand in the sb. What do you guys think?

How many slots do you plan on devoting to this? You need at least one unburial rites and 2 creatures because of the wording of intuition. The oracle text requires that you find at least 3 cards from your library. I'm guessing the intuitions aren't in the main either, so you'd need to find room for that too...

All in all I think this is a waste of sideboard slots. I mean, really, what do you think you're gaining with this? What decks really fold to unburial rites and a creature? A lot of decks are already geared to beat Reanimator and Sneak and Show, which have a similar gameplan to the intuition/unburial rites game plan. Plus, if you draw any of your creatures you're screwed until you can find a brainstorm effect.

[rxavage]

How many slots do you plan on devoting to this? You need at least one unburial rites and 2 creatures because of the wording of intuition. The oracle text requires that you find at least 3 cards from your library. I'm guessing the intuitions aren't in the main either, so you'd need to find room for that too...

All in all I think this is a waste of sideboard slots. I mean, really, what do you think you're gaining with this? What decks really fold to unburial rites and a creature? A lot of decks are already geared to beat Reanimator and Sneak and Show, which have a similar gameplan to the intuition/unburial rites game plan. Plus, if you draw any of your creatures you're screwed until you can find a brainstorm effect.

Damn, I only wanted to run one of each, for some reason I thought I could just search Intuition for Rites/Gris and have them both in grave. And I only got this idea because it was on colour.

[xfxf]

I've really been torn between esperblade and uwmiracles. I think blade fits my playstyle a bit better. And I've been contemplating running intuition/unburial rites/griselbrand in the sb. What do you guys think?

Without enough playtesting I used to think that both decks were trying to do almost the same thing while Esper was a better overall choice both in the combo and aggro matchups. However I played some games with Spiral Tide and UW Miracles is definitely a much harder matchup but Esper can be stronger against combo like S&T since they don't have the card advantage high tide has and targeted discard would be a beating. For the aggro matchups I tested Merfolk since a lot of folks (pun intended) seem to be picking up the deck. That matchup seems very very hard for Miracles and relatively balanced (on the back of equipment) for Esper. But against Maverick I feel Miracles again has the edge. So in short which deck to pick, it depends... With Miracles almost flat out losing to tribal aggro I wouldn't feel safe picking that deck up and going into a big tournament though.

[Dzra]

I've really been torn between esperblade and uwmiracles. I think blade fits my playstyle a bit better.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Miracle deck at all. There might be something to a UR variant with Bonfire of the Damned that could run Delvers or some such, but UW Miracle just flops too many times. I was watching a UW Miracle (with Countertop) VS RUG match on SCG and while it theoretically seems like a great MU for Miracle, it is very durdly and by the time Miracle stabilizes, it's dead to a topdecked Bolt... and none of this is to mention its bad MUs (tribal, Maverick, BUG, etc).


And I've been contemplating running intuition/unburial rites/griselbrand in the sb. What do you guys think?

I've seen this in some decks before and I've thought about it as a way to trump fair decks. It might be worth testing, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The only way to assemble the combo is via Intuition and I doubt you'd want to devote the 5-6 slots in your SB to hit it consistently. If you run less than 3-4 Intuitions, you're looking at a high chance of drawing one of the two creatures before the Intuition... and even then...

[matunos]

My Stoneblade games go long enough, I'm not too keen on getting more draws for time with miracles.

As for unburial, I don't like that plan either. Whether you play 1 Intuition, 3+ Lingering Souls in the main or the SB, I think that's 'unfair' enough.

[bruizar]

Damn, I only wanted to run one of each, for some reason I thought I could just search Intuition for Rites/Gris and have them both in grave. And I only got this idea because it was on colour.

If you want to go for the intuition package with rites, add 1 Gigapede. Belongs to veteran explorer type decks imo though.

[rxavage]

If you want to go for the intuition package with rites, add 1 Gigapede. Belongs to veteran explorer type decks imo though.

I mean its really not that cool and it doesn't fit with my gameplan. I'm just used to slapping down cheat Griselbrands.

[bruizar]

On the topic of Esper Blade, I'm currently fiddling around with the following list. It's far from done and I don't even know if I like it yet, but let's discuss anyway.


22 lands

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Squadron Hawk
1 Umezawa's Jitte / Sword of War and Peace / Body and Mind / Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

There are several notable differences with other esperblade decks:

Squadron Hawk instead of Lingering Souls, because:
Squadron Hawk comes down earlier
Squadron Hawk fuels Brainstorm
Squadron Hawk fuels turn 2 flashback Cabal Therapy
Squadron Hawk fuels Jace
Squadron Hawk connects with equipment
Squadron Hawk is immune to Terminus and Swords to Plowshares
Squadron Hawk doesn't care about Vendillion Clique or Delver

Jotun Grunt because:
Jotun Grunt costs 1W, just like Batterskull
Jotun Grunt is a good beatstick
Jotun Grunt shrinks Mongoose, Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf
Jotun Grunt puts back dead Hawks, which are searched for very soon
Jotun Grunt is maindeck graveyard hate
Jotun Grunt messes with Snapcaster Mages
Jotun Grunt survives a lightning bolt

Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize because:
Snapcaster into Thoughtseize is a waste of Snapcaster's ability
Snapcaster into something else, flashbacking Cabal Therapy gives you much more value
Cabal Therapy is great with Squadron Hawk, because it also leaves you with a hand that's set up to abuse Brainstorm or Jace, more therapies, an evasive body for equipment, or chumpfood
Cabal Therapy hits everything and doesnt cost life
Cabal Therapy sacrificing a Jotun Grunt which is on the way out is a good use of your resources
Early Flashback Therapy is important against combo decks that put you on a fast clock
Double use without Snapcaster Mage means that you have a higher density of discard effects in your deck.

I'd like to play Engineered Explosives in the deck, but I don't really have the space right now. If I can find space for 2 E.E.'s I think I should have a very reasonable game 1 chance against RUG, Maverick and UW Miracles. Also testing out Sword of War and Peace as it gives protection against Entreat the Angels tokens, plowshares, bolts and knights, but also gives me the ability to race really fast and gain life at the same time. Squadron Hawks help fill up my hand to increase the amount of Life I gain with it.

What do you guys think?

[Dzra]

I don't think Lingering Souls is particularly good right now and it's generally more powerful than Hawks. This deck already has a lot of CA. You don't want to waste turns durdling with Hawks, or Land Tax, or any other mediocre CA engine. Jace is all the late game engine you need. Hawks have nice synergy with BS, Jace, Grunts, or equipment, but they don't do anything on their own.

If you need more engine, run more Jace. Jace is CA, disruption, and wincon in one package... but I think as recent lists are showing, the problem isn't how to win as much as it is reaching the late game to win. Cutting Jaces and Cliques in favor of more early disruption helps us reach the late game where we will generally dominate.

Grunts are probably not as good as you want them to be, and will come back to bite you more times than you'd like with their bad Snapcaster synergy. If you want ways to abuse Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls is much more efficient than Hawks (or Hawks + Grunts).

Looking at your list and what you're trying to do, my suggestion would be to cut Grunts, Hawks, and Spell Snare for 3 Lingering Soul, the 4th FoW, the 4th Snapcaster, and 2 EE.

[bruizar]

I don't think Lingering Souls is particularly good right now and it's generally more powerful than Hawks. This deck already has a lot of CA. You don't want to waste turns durdling with Hawks, or Land Tax, or any other mediocre CA engine. Jace is all the late game engine you need. Hawks have nice synergy with BS, Jace, Grunts, or equipment, but they don't do anything on their own.

If you need more engine, run more Jace. Jace is CA, disruption, and wincon in one package... but I think as recent lists are showing, the problem isn't how to win as much as it is reaching the late game to win. Cutting Jaces and Cliques in favor of more early disruption helps us reach the late game where we will generally dominate.

Grunts are probably not as good as you want them to be, and will come back to bite you more times than you'd like with their bad Snapcaster synergy. If you want ways to abuse Cabal Therapy, Lingering Souls is much more efficient than Hawks (or Hawks + Grunts).

Looking at your list and what you're trying to do, my suggestion would be to cut Grunts, Hawks, and Spell Snare for 3 Lingering Soul, the 4th FoW, the 4th Snapcaster, and 2 EE.


I don't think this deck wants to cast 4 1/1's in a row. Lingering souls is just that, but this is not true for hawk. The way I pilot it is that I will only cast hawk if I have:
1) therapy in graveyard
2) brainstorm in hand
3) equipment on the table
4) jace on the table
5) vendillion clique / delver / entreat / tombstalker staring down at me
6) fill up hand after terminus

Otherwise there really is no strategic reason to cast the spell. Preferably you want to play it when at least 2 situations occur at the same time. The idea of plyaing Mesa Pegasus is not that appealing but when you understand how versatile it is and how it assists you in the plan you try to accomplish its more than a Mesa Pegasus.

Putting this card in the same league as lingering souls is somewhat faulty, because hawks have very unique utility, much different then lingering souls.

You are def. right about the spell snare and I still have to play test grunt before I can say anything about that card. On paper it seems strong against rug though, but I can see what you mean with grunt eating Snapcaster targets or dying a turn too quick.

[matunos]

I don't think this deck wants to cast 4 1/1's in a row. Lingering souls is just that, but this is not true for hawk.

Can you explain what you mean by this? You don' t have to flashback LS as soon as you can (unless you're playing against Surgical/Extirpate, in which case you may not want to cast LS at all until you can cast and flashback before passing priority).

Except for the above situation, you typically cast LS when you:
(a) Want 2 power in the air to fend off an Insectile Aberration
(b) Have a Jitte on its way.
(c) Need to defend/attack a Jace.
(d) Need to break a groundstall.

I'm pretty conservative about flashing them back (too conservative: sometimes I forget I even have it in my yard). If you flash back for no good reason, you're more susceptible to EE/Deed/Pulse/Echoing Truth.

If you can get 4 flying 1/1s out of 1 card and 5 mana, that doesn't seem worse than being able to get 4 flying 1/1s out of 1+ cards and 6 mana. LS is also pseudo-uncounterable as well semi-immune to discard effects (that is, it can be countered or discarded, but still useful), and since it's literally 1 card, the theoretical maximum number of flying 1/1s you can get is much higher. Obviously, the drawback is that, if you're lucky, Hawks can be recycled continuously, whereas if you're flashing back LS, that's not the case (although you can always recycle them with Jotun Grunt too).

I will admit that Squadron Hawk's synergy with Jotun Grunt is interesting, but I wonder how often that really helps you out much.

[TBryant23]

Has anyone tried Bitterblossom over Lingering Souls?

[bruizar]

Can you explain what you mean by this? You don' t have to flashback LS as soon as you can (unless you're playing against Surgical/Extirpate, in which case you may not want to cast LS at all until you can cast and flashback before passing priority).

What I meant is that I see Lingering Souls as a card with very little non-aggro utility. The best non-aggro utility I can think of is that it can protect your Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Squadron Hawk has merits as a non-aggro card. Before I explain this, I will describe my thought process.

Assumption #1
First off, the assumption is that multiple 1-CC discard spells are a good way to disrupt the best decks in the format. Combined with efficient counterspells, spot removal and a clock, you have a deck that should be able to win against all types of decks. Let's zoom in on discard spells: 2 cards are very popular right now. Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize. There is also Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy, but they see less play and are usually not included in Esperblade. A common play in Esperblade is Snapcaster Mage flashbacking Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize. I think many of us will agree that this is a pretty strong play, excluding weird scenarios against Reanimator or Dredge.

Assumption #2
Another assumption is that Snapcaster Mage is a really good card. It helps you get a lot of value out of your cards and rewards you for playing many different types of cheap instants and sorceries, instead of running 4 of every type. The more diverse your deck, the better Snapcaster Mage becomes, because you will have a bigger selection available. That said, playing with a diverse deck inherently makes it less consistent, so it is better to play with only the best instants and sorceries instead.

Assumption #3
This brings us to another assumption: The best cards in legacy are: Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm. Swords to Plowshares is the cheapest way to get rid of creatures, and Legacy is a creature format (despite the recent GP win from Storm combo). If you want to kill creatures, Swords to Plowshares is the best option available in the card pool. Brainstorm is the reason why blue decks tend to win. They have more consistent draws due to selection, and, like Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm too rewards you for playing situational cards. This is because you can shuffle them away in exchange for more relevant cards, and thus give you answers against a more diverse range of archetypes.

So I've now concluded that we want to play with Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. But, I've also concluded that the common play Snapcaster Mage flashing back a discard spell is very good. What we actually want to do is use our Snapcaster Mage to play the 2 best cards in legacy, namely Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares, but if we're spending it on Thoughtseize or IoK, we can't do that anymore.

So, the question right now is, is there a way to get the extra discard without having to sacrifice the ability of Snapcaster Mage to do so? Yes, Cabal Therapy does this. With minimal extra effort, we can use Cabal Therapy as discard. We do this by sacrificing one of our creatures that has already provided us with its value because of the 'enters the battlefield' effect. This could be Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage or Squadron Hawk. We don't want to do this to something like Lingering Souls, because without an 'enters the battlefield' effect, you will not have gained anything outside of the Cabal Therapy effect.

So now we've determined that Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Cabal Therapy are good. We can't forget that flashing back Cabal Therapy is conditional and we aren't running that many creatures. There is a way to improve the consistency of Cabal Therapy and to greatly increase the strength of our best card in the game: Brainstorm. This is Squadron Hawk.

Conclusion
In short: I believe that Cabal Therapy is a much more elegant way to do the same thing as Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek. It frees up your Snapcaster Mages for Swords to Plowshares and Brainstorm, but it requires a little more creature dense deck.

Flashbacking a Cabal Therapy with a Squadron Hawk is very similar to casting Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize from a Snapcaster Mage, but Squadron Hawk sets you up for a broken Brainstorm, which helps you get control over the game better than Snapcaster Mage if all you're using it to flashback discard. What is important though, is that if you can save your Snapcaster Mage because you are using Squadron Hawk as the discarder, you can use the Snapcaster Mage to cast Brainstorm, which will immediately be more impactful than otherwise because you are putting back 2 Squadron Hawks. Snapcaster Mage and Squadron Hawk have synergy in this setup.

In addition to these non-aggro utilities, Squadron Hawk provides many of the same aggro-utilities as Lingering Souls, such as evasion+equip, small army, cannonfodder. Lingering Souls might be slightly better in that department, but I'm looking to improve the non-aggro utility of the deck.

Jotun Grunt
Jotun Grunt is a separate story. I know I am not the first to fall against a gigantic Knight of the Reliquary, an untargetable Nimble Mongoose or Tarmogoyf, or getting that Counterspell or Spell Pierce flashbacked with Snapcaster Mage when you tried to resolve your Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Jotun Grunt provides a fast beater, one that improves 2 dominant decks in the format right now: RUG and Maverick. Especially RUG since Jotun Grunt is good against the majority of the decks threats and it survives atleast 1 lightning bolt/forked bolt/chain lightning, etc. RUG was the most played deck in Ghent, which is only 2 or 3 hours from Amsterdam, where I live. Jotun Grunt further conveniently puts back Squadron Hawks and can be sacrificed to Cabal Therapy without much regret, because he is a temporary threat anyway. Jotun Grunt provides me with Batterskull 5 and 6, since I'm also running 4 Stoneforge Mystics. That is a pretty amazing density of 4/4 bodies for a deck like this. 2 Jotun Grunts might be too much, but I would at least play with 1. This is something I need to test further.

[Malakai]

I have found that the only reason I was losing games was to either weak opening hands or hitting several blanks in a row. In order to fix this, I have added 2x Ponder, and I cut my second EE for a Trinket Mage (who can find my 1x Sensei's Divining Top). The Trinket Mage has also allowed me to free up a sideboard slot vs graveyard decks.

[Dzra]

I have found that the only reason I was losing games was to either weak opening hands or hitting several blanks in a row. In order to fix this, I have added 2x Ponder, and I cut my second EE for a Trinket Mage (who can find my 1x Sensei's Divining Top). The Trinket Mage has also allowed me to free up a sideboard slot vs graveyard decks.

I've been liking this setup as well. Adding Top and Ponder make openers and topdecks a lot smoother.

I'm also trying to find the best place to add Vindicate. Probably by either dropping the 5th discard for one MD or dropping a Disenchant or two for two Vindicate in the SB. It feels like a good MD catch-all, but EE usually fills that role just fine. It might be fine in the SB as Enchantment/Artifact hate that doubles as Creature/Planeswalker removal.

[learntolove6]

I have been playing UWr Miracle Blade for a while now and i'm convinced it is absolutely insane. I don't feel like I have any bad match-ups at all. Maverick is usually a bye, and RUG can't beat the slow play with Terminus or Entreat. The deck is crazy good and I would never suggest any other build. I used it to top 8 2 SCG IQs in a row and have consistently came first or second at my LGS.

I just figured i'd put my two cents in for anyone who was interested. Feel free to argue or disregard me, and there will be no hard feelings as we are all here to learn.

[Vidi]

Would you be so kind to include the list for this particular build? Thx! :smile:


I have been playing UWr Miracle Blade for a while now and i'm convinced it is absolutely insane. I don't feel like I have any bad match-ups at all. Maverick is usually a bye, and RUG can't beat the slow play with Terminus or Entreat. The deck is crazy good and I would never suggest any other build. I used it to top 8 2 SCG IQs in a row and have consistently came first or second at my LGS.

I just figured i'd put my two cents in for anyone who was interested. Feel free to argue or disregard me, and there will be no hard feelings as we are all here to learn.

[learntolove6]

Would you be so kind to include the list for this particular build? Thx! :smile:

gladly, my friend:

4 Stoneforge
3 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 FoW
1 Counterspell
4 StP
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of FaF
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland

SB:
1 Humilty
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gilded Drake
1 Banishing Stroke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 REB
2 Sulfur Elemnetal
1 FoW
2 Relic of Progenitus

[Einherjer]

May I give my particular opinion on this build? I've been playing UWr Terminator at the GP to a sad 6-3 score, so I have quite a little experience with it. But it's been quite a time since I last casted a Stoneforge Mystic.

1) 2 Sensei's Divining Top seems just plain wrong. I even play Academy Ruins to get one of my 4 Tops back. Yes, you are no Terminator-deck, but I'd still advance it to 3, or even 4. But as you deck does play equipment you could still play Trinket Mage which provides a body at least.

2) The one-off Spell Snares looks somewhat random, and the modern meta does not really warrant a Spell Snare to be honest. Your deck is not afraid of so many CC2 spells, better up the Counterspell/Spell Pierce count.

3) How the fuck can your manabase work? I mean, it looks great, cause it does everything, it provides 3 colors, creatures, utility-lands and even features some Wastelands. But how can this work? I didn't play a game with your manabase but it looks very shackey at best.

4) I've been kicking the Vendilion Cliques out of my list recently because I was not satisfied with their performance against various decks. Maybe your meta warrants playing these faeries, but I would give it another thought. You could easily stock up your other not-4-offs which should probably be 4-offs - for example Force of Will, maybe Snapcaster Mage too.

Greetings

[rxavage]

May I give my particular opinion on this build? I've been playing UWr Terminator at the GP to a sad 6-3 score, so I have quite a little experience with it. But it's been quite a time since I last casted a Stoneforge Mystic.

1) 2 Sensei's Divining Top seems just plain wrong. I even play Academy Ruins to get one of my 4 Tops back. Yes, you are no Terminator-deck, but I'd still advance it to 3, or even 4. But as you deck does play equipment you could still play Trinket Mage which provides a body at least.

2) The one-off Spell Snares looks somewhat random, and the modern meta does not really warrant a Spell Snare to be honest. Your deck is not afraid of so many CC2 spells, better up the Counterspell/Spell Pierce count.

3) How the fuck can your manabase work? I mean, it looks great, cause it does everything, it provides 3 colors, creatures, utility-lands and even features some Wastelands. But how can this work? I didn't play a game with your manabase but it looks very shackey at best.

4) I've been kicking the Vendilion Cliques out of my list recently because I was not satisfied with their performance against various decks. Maybe your meta warrants playing these faeries, but I would give it another thought. You could easily stock up your other not-4-offs which should probably be 4-offs - for example Force of Will, maybe Snapcaster Mage too.

Greetings



You mean 3-3 actually right?

"I don't get why people think going 5-0 and 6-3 at a GP is going 11-3. Basically it's 8-3, 5-0 grinder, 3-3 actual GP. The 3 "wins" from byes are already counted in the grinder wins. "

Kidding aside, I do agree with most of what you said, except for Cliques not pulling their weight.

[Einherjer]

You mean 3-3 actually right?

"I don't get why people think going 5-0 and 6-3 at a GP is going 11-3. Basically it's 8-3, 5-0 grinder, 3-3 actual GP. The 3 "wins" from byes are already counted in the grinder wins. "

Kidding aside, I do agree with most of what you said, except for Cliques not pulling their weight.

What a great answer:

"flame, flame, oh and I agree with you"


Thank you for your valuable input.

Greetings

EDIT: Just saw that you "quoted" that from a Philipp that's not me. It was Philipp2293 you quoted that from. I was surprised to read something like this from you, sorry for my reaction, I just wasn't used to such a form of communitcation from you, as I discussed with you earlier that year in the SneakAttack-Thread.

[rxavage]

What a great answer:

"flame, flame, oh and I agree with you"


Thank you for your valuable input.

Greetings

EDIT: Just saw that you "quoted" that from a Philipp that's not me. It was Philipp2293 you quoted that from. I was surprised to read something like this from you, sorry for my reaction, I just wasn't used to such a form of communitcation from you, as I discussed with you earlier that year in the SneakAttack-Thread.


Well That explains it, I quoted that because it seemed out of character, sorry about that. Anyways, I'm still torn between running an espsermiracle/blade deck or sneakshow next week at this tourney for duals. Here's my prospective esper list:


CREATURES

3 SCM

INSTANTS 16

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

SORCERIES

4 Thoughtseize
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

ARTIFACTS 7

4 Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles


PLANESWALKER 3

3 Jace

LANDS 22

3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

SIDEBOARD

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
3 CB
1 Timley Reinforcements
1 Humility
1 Grafdigger’s cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Porphyry Nodes

[Vidi]

How about something like:

4 Stoneforge
3 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
2 Spell Pierce
4 FoW
1 Counterspell
4 StP
2 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl

SB:
1 Humility
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gilded Drake
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Relic of Progenitus

The sideboard isn't set since you can always tweak it based on your metagame, but I like the maindeck.

[xfxf]

rxavage, Why do you have SFM in your deck when you don't play any equipment to fetch?

[rxavage]

rxavage, Why do you have SFM in your deck when you don't play any equipment to fetch?


It's supposed to be SCM, I'll fix that.

[matunos]

rxavage, Why do you have SFM in your deck when you don't play any equipment to fetch?

He doesn't list SFM above, he lists SCM.

But I wonder why he calls it "espermiracle/blade" when it has no blades (or Jittes).

Updated: Heh, he fixed it by the time I read it, and I didn't see his note above.

[Koby]

How about something like:


The sideboard isn't set since you can always tweak it based on your metagame, but I like the maindeck.

I think it's missing Cursed Scroll. Gotta beat Merfolk somehow.

[matunos]

I think it's missing Cursed Scroll. Gotta beat Merfolk somehow.

Batterskull or Jitte usually beat Merfolk.

[Koby]

Batterskull or Jitte usually beat Merfolk.

Whoooooosssshhh.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497&iddeck=39794

[rxavage]

He doesn't list SFM above, he lists SCM.

But I wonder why he calls it "espermiracle/blade" when it has no blades (or Jittes).

Updated: Heh, he fixed it by the time I read it, and I didn't see his note above.

Because I could easily add 3 SFM, Batterskul, and Jitte. I posted an edited esperblade list which is where the mix-up happened. I've been testing straight UW miracle and it's performed well but it takes too long to close the game out. I'm also concerned about Merfolks being a big presence at the next tourney, hence why I may want to add the Stoneforge package.

[preddi]

Hello,
I switched from my UW Blade to Esperblade recently. I'm having trouble with my sideboard plan against some decks. Here's my recent list:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains

/Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Lingering Souls
1 Humility
1 Disenchant

So basically I want to board in so many cards in almost every matchup that i think I'm oversideboarding but I'm not sure.

1) Maverick?
+2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + Humility + Disenchant
- 2 Spell Pierce -2 Clique - 3 Force (I'm used to board out Countermagic mainly, but I think cutting almost all is wrong, maybe Discard spells?)
2) RUG?
On the play: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Spell Pierce (Maybe Humility?)
-3 Jace -4 Force -1 Clique
On the Draw: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm
-3 Jace -2 Force -Counterspell - 1 Clique
3) Show and Tell
+2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Spell Pierce +1 Humility +Disenchant
-4 Swords to Plowshares (leave some in ?) -2 Engineered Explosives -1 Academy Ruins - 1 Umezawa's Jitte

So what do you guys think of this? I think I'm doing something wrong because I'm boarding so many cards. Are there any other options to cut in certain matchups?

Advice and criticism is appreciated :)

- preddi

[Dzra]

1) Maverick?
+2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + Humility + Disenchant
- 2 Spell Pierce -2 Clique - 3 Force (I'm used to board out Countermagic mainly, but I think cutting almost all is wrong, maybe Discard spells?)

Maverick is a tough one for me... there's two routes I think you can go that are both valid. 1) Side out countermagic. 2) Side out SFM package.

The argument for siding out the SFM package would be that it is hard to rely on equipment against a deck that has 3-4 cards that destroy artifacts and 4 recyclable tutors to find them.

The argument against that would be that Maverick has few, if any, cards worth FoWing and 2-for-1ing yourself. Using discard to clear the way, it is possible to stick an equipment and finish the game before they can recover.

In my experience, most Maverick games tend to get very grindy. In that case, I'd rather have the extra protection, rather than SFM. Perhaps experiment with switching out the SFM package on the play vs on the draw. I still need to do quite a bit more testing before I am comfortable with this MU.


2) RUG?
On the play: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Spell Pierce (Maybe Humility?)
-3 Jace -4 Force -1 Clique
On the Draw: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm
-3 Jace -2 Force -Counterspell - 1 Clique

I would stick to taking out Jaces and Cliques. Both are REB fodder and you shouldn't need more than 4-5 slots against RUG. I'd much rather see you bring in PtE than Flusterstorm. The tempo from FoW can sometimes be relevant. (The exception could be if you see their list or strongly suspect they don't have REB/Pyroblast in their SB... in which case, Jace becomes very, very powerful.)

You might want to bring in Vindicate (perhaps a Disenchant) as a way to deal with Sulfuric Vortex. It probably depends whether you bring in additional sweepers or not. Perish/WoG will help free up your EE's to hit Vortex, otherwise your EE will be important to kill Mongoose.


3) Show and Tell
+2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Spell Pierce +1 Humility +Disenchant
-4 Swords to Plowshares (leave some in ?) -2 Engineered Explosives -1 Academy Ruins - 1 Umezawa's Jitte

You can easily side out Swords and EE here. You can maybe lose the Jitte (though it can be useful in racing). Bring in Surgicals, Cliques, and however much countermagic you have. Disenchant/Vindicate is ok, but if they resolve Sneak Attack, they likely have you. If you need additional slots, you can board out Jace since he's pretty slow and tapping out is dangerous. Use Surgical aggressively to see how close they are to comboing and you'll know when it is safe to push your clock.


What are people's thoughts on Pithing Needle (as part of the Trinket Mage SB package)? I'm not quite sure that it's worth the slot as I feel like I'd rather deal with the threat (Vindicate, Disenchant, removal, etc) rather than leave it sitting there waiting for something to bounce/destroy my Needle.

[klaus]

1) Maverick?
+2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + Humility + Disenchant
- 2 Spell Pierce -2 Clique - 3 Force
I don't see any sense in keeping in a singleton FOW - since it's the kind of card that you want to see in your opener (which is why people play 4) - it's a horrible midgame topdeck and only becomes okay again after turn 15, when it's not a big hassle to hardcast it. That being said, I'm not sure about the optimal alternative..



2) RUG?
On the play: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Spell Pierce (Maybe Humility?)
-3 Jace -4 Force -1 Clique
On the Draw: +2 Perish +3 Lingering Souls + 2 Flusterstorm
-3 Jace -2 Force -Counterspell - 1 Clique
Not sure whether keeping in Thoughtseize is viable. I'd opt to keep in 2 FOW instead to be able to resolve (and use) SFM.



3) Show and Tell
+2 Surgical Extraction + 2 Flusterstorm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Spell Pierce +1 Humility +Disenchant
-4 Swords to Plowshares (leave some in ?) -2 Engineered Explosives -1 Academy Ruins - 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Disenchant is not an option against most S&T players by now, since they'll be able to wait until they can cast Sneak Attack and go off the same turn. I'd suggest keeping in Ruins instead.

[preddi]

Hello,
I want to thank you first for your responses. I'm a little overwhelmed by the possibilities of the esper board. My UW list was more straight forward.
@Dzra:
Boarding out the SFM package sounds interesting but for this i think you need a proper way to close the game. Jace never got there against maverick for me because each creature is enough to stop Jace from ultimating. I no longer play Elspeth in my esper list, so I think the countermagic has to go or another threat has to be in my board (like Elspeth or Geist).

@Klaus:
I think boarding out all forces is optimal, but i lost many games to elspeth, choke, Sylvan Library. So I feel we need at least some ways to stop this cards from resolving.
This looks difficult :/

[wcm8]

Against Maverick, I generally take out all of the countermagic and bring in removal. Aside from Choke, there's generally nothing in their deck that can't be dealt with via your standard removal package. I am playing 2 engineered explosives in the main and the third in the SB, and this card goes a long way in making this matchup more managable since it can lead to one-sided board wipes and deals effectively with the troublesome Mother of Runes.

Engineered Explosives I feel is a card that Esper really needs to start playing more of going forward to help deal with Maverick, RUG, and Merfolk. It's not the best against Goblins, but it's functional there as well. If you reference the origins of the deck (Mental Misstep era), the deck ran either Standstill or Ancestral Visions as methods of card advantage. Now, we get that somewhat via Snapcaster recursion, but EE furthers this idea by providing the potential for 2-for-1's in addition to being a solid removal option.

[Dzra]

Against Maverick, I'd probably not go for Jace's ult for a long while. Cement your lead with a lot of incremental advantage and BSing every turn. It's not as flashy as equipment, Jacing, or Elspeth, but I think it's more reliable. If you stabilize early with removal and discard then your counters should stop them getting back into the game while you beat down with Clique and Snaps.

Boarding out counter magic is definitely an option. Between EE, Disenchant, and Vindicate, you should have enough ways to deal with Library and Choke. You're much more vulnerable to topdecks though.

[learntolove6]

Sorry this took so long to respond, I moved and didn't have internet for a few days.

1) I have tossed around the idea of 3 Tops, but besides the fact that my list is very tight already, I have found 3 to be a little clunky. I don't always want to drop it turn 1, and drawing multiples is SUPER clunky.

2) I agree with you completely. I've been a huge proponent of 4 Pierces for a long time because I agree that the meta does not want something like Snare, but i've just been trying it out lately as a 1-of, and although it has done a lot of work, I do think just making it the 4th pierce is better.

3) As far as the manabase is concerned I never have any issue. Maybe 1 in 10 times. It works as good as it looks. Fetchlands get me the colors I need, the wastelands are only there to take care of trouble lands, not to screw my opponent. Mishra's Factory is bonkers, and I almost always have the colors I need. It may be because i'm on 24 lands that it works, but it does.

4) For a while I agreed with you, but the value of Clique against combo is too good to pass up. I was running Geist for a long time but what I gained against Maverick with Terminus, I lost from Combo, so the Cliques do a lot of work. The reason I play 3 SCM is because they become a bit worse with all my Miracles. 3 FoW is just something I change depending on my meta.

I appreciate your comments and what you're saying has validity. My list changes frequently because I believe you should always change a list because it is never perfect, so i'll definitely consider what you said. I'm also kind of stubborn so there's that.


May I give my particular opinion on this build? I've been playing UWr Terminator at the GP to a sad 6-3 score, so I have quite a little experience with it. But it's been quite a time since I last casted a Stoneforge Mystic.

1) 2 Sensei's Divining Top seems just plain wrong. I even play Academy Ruins to get one of my 4 Tops back. Yes, you are no Terminator-deck, but I'd still advance it to 3, or even 4. But as you deck does play equipment you could still play Trinket Mage which provides a body at least.

2) The one-off Spell Snares looks somewhat random, and the modern meta does not really warrant a Spell Snare to be honest. Your deck is not afraid of so many CC2 spells, better up the Counterspell/Spell Pierce count.

3) How the fuck can your manabase work? I mean, it looks great, cause it does everything, it provides 3 colors, creatures, utility-lands and even features some Wastelands. But how can this work? I didn't play a game with your manabase but it looks very shackey at best.

4) I've been kicking the Vendilion Cliques out of my list recently because I was not satisfied with their performance against various decks. Maybe your meta warrants playing these faeries, but I would give it another thought. You could easily stock up your other not-4-offs which should probably be 4-offs - for example Force of Will, maybe Snapcaster Mage too.

Greetings

[GreenHornet]

Has anyone tested Dark Confidant? I've been playing him as a 4 of and he is a must answer, or you just drown the opposition in card advantage.

[Artlee]

Has anyone tested Dark Confidant? I've been playing him as a 4 of and he is a must answer, or you just drown the opposition in card advantage.

Between FoW, Batterskull, Clique, Lingering Souls, Vindicate and Thoughtseize he sounds like a liability. He's always a must answer, but have you tracked your average lifeloss from him? I would like to think it's quite high, but have never tried it, so I might be wrong.

[matunos]

Between FoW, Batterskull, Clique, Lingering Souls, Vindicate and Thoughtseize he sounds like a liability. He's always a must answer, but have you tracked your average lifeloss from him? I would like to think it's quite high, but have never tried it, so I might be wrong.

Don't forget Jace.

The general consensus with Confidant seems to be that he's usually worth the risk (and with Brainstorm and Ponder, you can mitigate it). But yeah that is definitely a risk.

OTOH, what do you take out to fit him?

He might be good for the sideboard, for matches where you side out FoW and/or Jace...

[lordofthepit]

It seems that Surgical Extraction is the "go-to" choice for graveyard hate for this deck. However, I'm surprised that there's no love for Nihil Spellbomb as another option. It's a more crippling piece of gravehate, and since it cantrips, it's not embarrassing to bring in against decks which utilize the graveyard but don't depend on it (such as Canadian Threshold). Not to mention it actually cripples graveyard dependent decks like Dredge, as well as having excellent synergy with Academy Ruins.

Edit: In Esper Stoneblade, obviously.

[nabuchodonosor]

Hi everyone , my name is Sam.
I played a lot stoneblade with a lot of differents lists , in 3 differents format. I really like this deck cause it won me a Ptq and day2ed me GP Amsterdam, won me bilands,...

But since Tom Martell won a GP with lingering souls , I stoped to play this deck cause I hate his list and lingering souls (mainly because of the bad manabase) , and didnt find a way to win the mirror without the black for lingering souls.

But now decided to build a new stoneblade based on the interaction between trinket mage and riptide laboratory.

here my list :

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Trinket Mage

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Riptide Laboratory
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ponder
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 4 Terminus
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Gilded Drake


First of all , I play 24 lands and only 2 colors. This means that the manabase is solid and good against wastelands. Furthermore , this manabase allows us to play some very usefull colorless lands such as riptide laboratory and mishra's factory.
The 2nd thing is trinket mage. This card bring with ,his toolbox , a lot of answers (needle,EE,relic,tormod's) and also TOP and seat of the synod. It is a bit slow but allways usefull, provide CA and ''combo'' with riptide.

I play 2 Top because it wins control mirror and combo with terminus and counterbalance of the sideboard.It also bring some gas when you draw a lot of your 24 lands.And there are a lot of shuffle effect in the deck to make sure you find what you need.

2 batterskull because it is a very good card on his own in this deck that can easily hardcast it.Also it make sure you have something to search with your 2nd or 3rd stonefore expecialy when you sideout jitte.

EE is very good right now because it kills nimble mangooze , merfolks and sylvan library.

Now the sideboard :

4 terminus are very good against merfolk , goblin , elf , RUG delver , maverick.
4 because it is good agaist a lot of the field and you allways want to draw a lot of it, if no brainstorm you can still hardcast it. Also good with TOPs,Jaces,bs,ponder.

1 tormod's crypt , 1 needle, 1 relic. Easy to find with 3 trinket mage,2 top,4 bs,2 ponder
the 2nd relic is mostly here against RUG delver ,it makes mangoose 1/1 and tarmo smaller and 0/1 when you want, exiles loam and ancient grudge.

1 Karakas 1 Gilded Drake , mostly against Sneak n Show and also vs reanimator's the show n tell sideboard plan.
Karakas is also good against maverick because it can bounce thalia and the all importent gaddock teeg.

2 flusterstorm 1 vendilion clique 2 counterbalance.Very good against all kind of combo and control decks.

1 path to exile it mostly there to have a 5th remouval against RUG delver but I can easily see a Elspeth or even a 4th jace in this slot if you expect more control decks.

vs RUG delver :
+4 terminus +1 relic of progenitus +1 path to exile +2 counterbalance
-4 force of will -1 jitte -3 jace

vs Maverick
+4 terminus +1 Karakas
-1 vendilion clique -4 force of will

vs Sneak n Show
+1 Karakas+1 gilded drake +2 flusterstorm +1 vendilion clique+1 pithing needle+2 counterbalance
-2 EE -4 stp -1 jitte -1 batterskull

vs Reanimator
+1 Karakas+1 Gilded Drake +2 flusterstorm+1 vendilion clique+2 counterbalance
-2 EE -4 stp-1 jitte-1 batterskull

vs Control
+2 flusterstorm +1 vendilion clique+2 counterbalance
some number of stp,EE,relic
against stoneblade you maybe want to bring image in , as stonefore n°5 and n°6 or a remouval for clique and sometimes geist of sainth traft or even a 2nd trinket mage or to ramp by coying mishra's factory.

what do you think about this deck ? what would you change ? do you have critics or questions ?

[Jessenator]

Hi everyone , my name is Sam.
I played a lot stoneblade with a lot of differents lists , in 3 differents format. I really like this deck cause it won me a Ptq and day2ed me GP Amsterdam, won me bilands,...

But since Tom Martell won a GP with lingering souls , I stoped to play this deck cause I hate his list and lingering souls (mainly because of the bad manabase) , and didnt find a way to win the mirror without the black for lingering souls.

But now decided to build a new stoneblade based on the interaction between trinket mage and riptide laboratory.

here my list :

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Trinket Mage

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Riptide Laboratory
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ponder
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 4 Terminus
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Gilded Drake


First of all , I play 24 lands and only 2 colors. This means that the manabase is solid and good against wastelands. Furthermore , this manabase allows us to play some very usefull colorless lands such as riptide laboratory and mishra's factory.
The 2nd thing is trinket mage. This card bring with ,his toolbox , a lot of answers (needle,EE,relic,tormod's) and also TOP and seat of the synod. It is a bit slow but allways usefull, provide CA and ''combo'' with riptide.

I play 2 Top because it wins control mirror and combo with terminus and counterbalance of the sideboard.It also bring some gas when you draw a lot of your 24 lands.And there are a lot of shuffle effect in the deck to make sure you find what you need.

2 batterskull because it is a very good card on his own in this deck that can easily hardcast it.Also it make sure you have something to search with your 2nd or 3rd stonefore expecialy when you sideout jitte.

EE is very good right now because it kills nimble mangooze , merfolks and sylvan library.

Now the sideboard :

4 terminus are very good against merfolk , goblin , elf , RUG delver , maverick.
4 because it is good agaist a lot of the field and you allways want to draw a lot of it, if no brainstorm you can still hardcast it. Also good with TOPs,Jaces,bs,ponder.

1 tormod's crypt , 1 needle, 1 relic. Easy to find with 3 trinket mage,2 top,4 bs,2 ponder
the 2nd relic is mostly here against RUG delver ,it makes mangoose 1/1 and tarmo smaller and 0/1 when you want, exiles loam and ancient grudge.

1 Karakas 1 Gilded Drake , mostly against Sneak n Show and also vs reanimator's the show n tell sideboard plan.
Karakas is also good against maverick because it can bounce thalia and the all importent gaddock teeg.

2 flusterstorm 1 vendilion clique 2 counterbalance.Very good against all kind of combo and control decks.

1 path to exile it mostly there to have a 5th remouval against RUG delver but I can easily see a Elspeth or even a 4th jace in this slot if you expect more control decks.

vs RUG delver :
+4 terminus +1 relic of progenitus +1 path to exile +2 counterbalance
-4 force of will -1 jitte -3 jace

vs Maverick
+4 terminus +1 Karakas
-1 vendilion clique -4 force of will

vs Sneak n Show
+1 Karakas+1 gilded drake +2 flusterstorm +1 vendilion clique+1 pithing needle+2 counterbalance
-2 EE -4 stp -1 jitte -1 batterskull

vs Reanimator
+1 Karakas+1 Gilded Drake +2 flusterstorm+1 vendilion clique+2 counterbalance
-2 EE -4 stp-1 jitte-1 batterskull

vs Control
+2 flusterstorm +1 vendilion clique+2 counterbalance
some number of stp,EE,relic
against stoneblade you maybe want to bring image in , as stonefore n°5 and n°6 or a remouval for clique and sometimes geist of sainth traft or even a 2nd trinket mage or to ramp by coying mishra's factory.

what do you think about this deck ? what would you change ? do you have critics or questions ?

This deck seems very cool. But I can see a few problems with it. This format is about representing the cheapest threat, fastest creatures, fastest combos, and representing some countermagic back up to get there. The reason Stoneblade (esper) can do so well is because they can play a reactive and more importantly, a proactive game with discards. You aren't running counter magic, so your only source of proactive game is searching up an Engineered Explosives for 2. This game plan can fail against some decks such as Maverick, although the number of Terminus in the sideboard can really help out.

The reason Esper is so strong is because it has access to cards such as Inquisition / Thoughtseize / Lingering Souls. All those cards gives the deck more time to improve card quality and gain advantage over time. Lingering Souls, once resolved, can stop RUG decks for more than a turn or two, same with Maverick. Then you're required to find an equipment / Explosives to take care of the threat on board.

The thing is, I only see a proactive game in this deck. (Trinket Mage / Stoneforge), but no reactive game. For a slow deck like Stoneblade, this is needed. I really wanted to make a deck like this work as well, Trinket Mage is one of my favorite cards. It has a tendency to even make your sideboard more consistent by having more copies. Searching for Pithing Needle in a mirror match / control deck is a key to winning.

[Jessenator]

Hey guys, I'm sure all of you have been seeing 2-3 Spell Pierces in the Esper Stoneblade list. I have been testing the deck repeatedly and have found that Pierces are probably the worst cards in the deck. It really does not negate anything that I want it to and its usually just a blank card that I want to get value out of immediately. I can see it is extremely good against the UW Miracles deck or combo decks, which haven't been too popular in the US.

[nabuchodonosor]

I really dont like cards like thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek because they dont interact with what's on board , sometimes put you behind in tempo, and most importent thing it is a really bad topdeck in the late game.
Of course we have brainstorm+shuffle effect to get rid of these useless discard spells.
But I dont think that it is worth spalishing black and make the manabase worst for these cards. Plus , I play Vendilion Clique who provide a similar discard effect but Is also a good body who can kill a jace or tard with a mangoose, and it can also recycle a card in our hand.

I am not saying thoughtseize is a bad card , I would definitly play it if it were white or blue. But I dont think it justifly adding black.
I dont think thoughtseize make your maverick match up better (partly cause of the mana and partly cause of the fact that it is a horrible late-game topdeck.)
Thoughtseize is only very good on the 1st few turns or when you can bounce(with jace or karakas) then discard a creature.

Thoughtseize is very good against combo decks but right a lot of poeple play wasteland.
I think the discard is very very good in the early game against control but control mirror are often very long and sometimes you draw thoughtseize in the late game when you need CA or active cards.

But maybe thoughtseize is good enough ? Do you really think it is nessesary ?
why is it impossible to play just UW stoneblade like before Tom Martell won that GP ?


I dont like Spell pierce because again , it is very bad in the late game. Also, holding a spellpierce can make you loose some very importent tempo against decks with wasteland,daze,thalia.
Plus spell pierce is not particulary good against RUG delver of Maverick.

I think thant trinket mage is a lot better than Lingering souls in most situations.
And it provides some answers like tormod's, needle or the all-importent TOP where souls only smash or chump bloc.
(for example: against tarmo,mangoose,thalia,delver(EE cost only 2 to kill thalia and 0 to kill delver)
Trinket mage also ''combo'' with riptide laboratory.

I think I must be wrong because everyone is playing Lingering Souls, could somone explain me ?


Since I play a lot of card that make CA(trinket,stoneforge,jace,EE,terminus,snapcaster) and a lot of cards to find them , and a lot of reactive cards too , I think that not beeing proactive is not a major problem.

For example , against delver my plan is to destroy all their creatures (with stp,relic,path,terminus,EE) then drown them with all the CA. In this match up you can't afford to play cards like thoughtseize cause it is a dead card in the lategame and drawing this at the wrong time can allows them to come back in the game.

[mishima_kazuya]

Hey guys, I'm sure all of you have been seeing 2-3 Spell Pierces in the Esper Stoneblade list. I have been testing the deck repeatedly and have found that Pierces are probably the worst cards in the deck. It really does not negate anything that I want it to and its usually just a blank card that I want to get value out of immediately. I can see it is extremely good against the UW Miracles deck or combo decks, which haven't been too popular in the US.

Eh...lets you play turn 3 Stoneforge Mystic with some protection and doesn't afraid of anything.

Also...snap Spell Pierce Brainstorms and Ponders from RUG delver as a good player knows how to maximize value from Brainstorm and Ponder. Sure you side out some Spell Pierces against RUG delver, but its pretty vital to catch their card filtering.

Spell Pierce is also not completely dead against Maverick as you can still Spell Pierce Green Sun's Zenith and catch a Swords to Plowshares when they get greedy.

[GreenHornet]

Current list I'm running is:
22 lands
7 fetch
5 basics
9 dual
1 utility

22 spells
3 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
3 lingering souls
1 intuition
4 force of will

11 creatures
4 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
3 snapcaster mage

2 equipment
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

3 jace, the mind sculptor

Thing I like about most Dark Confidant is that if he gets killed, that's one less piece of removal on stoneforge. If he doesn't get killed then you can stick stoneforger because you're sure to have answers.
Considering there are 36 cards CMC<=1 and only 8 cards CMC>=4 blind flips aren't bad. But maybe I just gypsy luck everything. The two equipment both gain life, so if you have the CA you can stabilize on low life without much fear.

I've also been considering Baleful Strix since he replaces himself immediately, trades with fatties, carries jitte like a boss, and pitches to FoW.

Thoughts?

[preddi]

@nabuchodonosor:
I felt exactly the way you do about the black splash. Splash just for discard was cute but no necessary in my opinion. Cards like Lingering Souls maindeck have to be a metagame decision, because the card sucks in many matchups (I moved mine to the sideboard).
But after testing an esper list myself on tournaments I can see that the discard is worth the splash. It replaces Mental Misstep to a certain degree (protect Stoneforge) as well as gives you valuable information and lines of play you otherwise wouldn't have.
It is sick against combo decks as well. The only downsides are the more vulnerable manabase and the lack of factories. And after testing, the advantages from discard are worth it.
Even with a straight UW list you often have to play a dual land or factory so you get wastelanded too. Sure you play 24 lands but your curve is higher with UW (usually). Therefore, wasteland hurts you just as much as the esper lists.
I can see playing without black discard if the format slows down a little more. Then you should add Ancestral Visions back in. But at the moment I think the first 3 turns are so important that playing a higher curve is not an option.
In addition spell pierce is great against Canadian. Probably the best legal counterspell in the format against this deck. Not to mention combo.

@GreenHornet:
Confidant is a great card, but I think playing him in a meta with Canadian and fast Combo is just not good enough, because you need 2 or more turns to really get ahead. Even against control decks like Miracle you just enable their removal. I can see it being good against maverick, but it will eat swords. Sure your Stoneforge will most likely not die if you follow with that, but maverick almost never loses to one equipment.
If you run Intuition in your deck I think you should add some Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins that you can look for.

[Jessenator]

I don't think Lingering Souls belong in the main deck anymore. In the sideboard is it probably desperately needed, along with 1-2 Cabal Therapy and Intuition splashed in. You have an extremely attrition-heavy board that's very strong against the Mirror / Miracles.. You only want it against the mirror and control / stall decks. That should only take up 15% of the meta at most (in the US). I agree, I probably have to put the Spell Pierce in the mainboard.. Its not very optimal but stoneblade has a weak early game and Spell Pierce / Discard helps to smooth the two decks evenly.

Splashing black for discard is absolutely key. You don't lose "tempo" because its a 1 black mana spell that disables their next turn. There really isn't a tempo loss from playing a 1 CC sorcery that makes their next couple turns worse. What are you desperately trying to play that turn? A creature? Probably not..

[matunos]

I have two LS in the main deck, none in the side. I've also played with none main and 3 in the side. I think either work out reasonably if you play them right.

The reason I moved some back to the main deck is that when you're relying on Jitte in part, it's nice to have the extra bodies, because many decks can remove your Stoneforge/Snapcasters before you can equip. There's nothing sadder than seeing an unequipped Jitte on your board as you're getting stomped.

[Jessenator]

The 3 JTMS has been absolutely horrible. I have cut back to 2 and 1 in the side and it's working out smoothly. The format has a little too many Wasteland and Spell Pierce for him as a 3 of.. I also like the Trinket Mage package. It's been amazing lately. Searching up for EE to board wipe for 1/2. Or search top just for value and filtering. Top allows you to set up the Terminus in the sideboard, which I have been playing a 3 of. Also Trinket Mage can search up Pithing Needle and Nihil Spellbomb against grind decks and RUG/Maverick respectively, and recycling Spell Bomb with Academy Ruins is just dirty.

The one card I would never leave the main board is Vindicate. Absolutely amazing in almost every match up.. One of the best cards late game and kills equipments and Planeswalkers. Another thing is that I have cut back on the 4th Snapcaster. So many times early game I have just leave a Snap in hand then 1-4 and either I'm casting it as a 2-1 with no additional value, or I'm holding up blue mana for counter spells.

Been teching one of Spell Snare, card is quite good, since no one suspects it... Ever.. And they get the most awkward face when you counter their 2 drop.

[mike1987]

I understand lingering souls is a metagame call but please correct me if i am wrong, isn't it good against most creature decks like RUG, maverick, fish and even UW miracles after a terminus. The one decks that LS wouldnt shine in are combo decks so why are most esper blade lists these days cutting LS?

[3duece]

What is our best maindeck answer to a resolved creature from sneak and show or reanimator? Besides the miser karakas, of course. Obviously, not letting show and tell or a reanimation spell resolve is the first line of defense, but if an enabler does in fact make it through, shouldn't we have some sort of clutch? I'm thinking either a pair of oblivion rings or a pair of sower of temptation, although I'm inclined to think sower is too slow.

[mike1987]

What is our best maindeck answer to a resolved creature from sneak and show or reanimator? Besides the miser karakas, of course. Obviously, not letting show and tell or a reanimation spell resolve is the first line of defense, but if an enabler does in fact make it through, shouldn't we have some sort of clutch? I'm thinking either a pair of oblivion rings or a pair of sower of temptation, although I'm inclined to think sower is too slow.

I would SB in gilded drakes and humility for them.

[Jessenator]

I understand lingering souls is a metagame call but please correct me if i am wrong, isn't it good against most creature decks like RUG, maverick, fish and even UW miracles after a terminus. The one decks that LS wouldnt shine in are combo decks so why are most esper blade lists these days cutting LS?

It's very good against UW Miracles, because it puts pressure on their PWs and puts pressure without over extension to a Terminus. Maverick doesn't care about your Lingering Souls, and Delver will counter or Waste you so you don't even have the lands to cast it.. It doesn't actually stop their Mongoose or their way to win. Linger Souls should be in your 75 definitely. It helps in the mirror and some creature based match ups. But in the current meta where Wastelands / Spell Pierce and Tempo based decks are so common, its not entirely a good idea.