[DTB] Blade Control

[ThediscoPower]

Especially since it dies to Abrupt Decay.

and the postboard pulses and grips they will probably bring in anyways. Playing a 24th land ia probably a good idea tho.


Can D and T be classified as a "Blade Control" deck? =|

Really Really not. Like, completely differents goals in mind.

[matunos]

and the postboard pulses and grips they will probably bring in anyways. Playing a 24th land ia probably a good idea tho.

24 lands in an esper list sounds pretty greedy, given the amount of business spells you want.

We've been playing against Wasteland for a while now, nothing new there. Vindicates and Sinkholes can at least be countered.

[Deadpool09]

Since the Standard days of Cawblade, SFM + Jace decks have always suffered from this. Sometime you'll have a hand that's all-in on the aggro plan, with very little counter/control measures, whereas other times you'll have a hand that's steeped in control elements, but can't apply any pressure on your opponent early. Because of this, you may find yourself holding a control hand when you absolutely need to have aggro online, or you're holding an aggro hand, but you need control elements pronto; Brainstorm/Ponder help smooth this out, but sometimes your opening 7/opening 6 decides your fate. I suspect you feel this deck "does nothing" when these unfortunate situations occur.

Allright I considered our guys suggestions so I made a few changes,. After swearing to my self that I would never pay 60 bucks for a discard spell, and after debating with the store employee which card should I get, I finally gave in and bought 2 thought seize. I originally wanted to remove 2 marsh flats so I could add 2 polluted deltas, but he convinced me that thoughtsiexe will improve the deck much more than the polluted deltas would. Anyways, I entered a small tourney, 17 players, 5 rounds of Swiss, and I went 2-3. The only reason I got those "wins" is because I got a bye and my last opponent had to drop. Soooo.... There you go, it's either I don't understand how this decks works, or I'm just a realllllly horrible player. I've always played tempo decks back then, and I've always benn ale o play very tightly, but for some reason, when it ones to this version of stoneblade, I dont get the results I wanted. Btw, I'm on the process of getting a 3rd Jtms so I an replace the elspeth. So guys, how, do you guys play this deck? I've read the primers and watched the deck techs and matches, but I still don't get it. Maybe I just dont enjoy playing the deck.

[AEnesidem]

Allright I considered our guys suggestions so I made a few changes,. After swearing to my self that I would never pay 60 bucks for a discard spell, and after debating with the store employee which card should I get, I finally gave in and bought 2 thought seize. I originally wanted to remove 2 marsh flats so I could add 2 polluted deltas, but he convinced me that thoughtsiexe will improve the deck much more than the polluted deltas would. Anyways, I entered a small tourney, 17 players, 5 rounds of Swiss, and I went 2-3. The only reason I got those "wins" is because I got a bye and my last opponent had to drop. Soooo.... There you go, it's either I don't understand how this decks works, or I'm just a realllllly horrible player. I've always played tempo decks back then, and I've always benn ale o play very tightly, but for some reason, when it ones to this version of stoneblade, I dont get the results I wanted. Btw, I'm on the process of getting a 3rd Jtms so I an replace the elspeth. So guys, how, do you guys play this deck? I've read the primers and watched the deck techs and matches, but I still don't get it. Maybe I just dont enjoy playing the deck.

look, it's not as simple as being told how to play the deck and do well. I've had some friends try the deck and quit stoneblade because they only won against bad players. They were good players and read a LOT about stoneblade. The deck just has a steep learning curve. When you play against under average or average players you might win some games on just the powerlevel of the deck but once you play against a skilled mtg player this deck becomes really hard to pilot correctly.

Maybe you play too agressively because you are used to tempo? Maybe you don't make the right choices. With stoneblade, more than with any other deck, it's important to determine your role in the matchup. Are you the beatdown? or not? will you try to take over the board with control and play defensively? or do you want to drop stonefoge on T2 and make tokens to swing? Badly evaluating your role and making agressive or defensive plays when you are not supposed to can cost you the game. Another hing that makes this deck hard is color management. We need all 3 colors early on and are wide open to wasteland. Fetching correctly is such an overlooked thing. I've lost so many games by fetchin badly. Lastly: the brainstorms. Brainstorm is a card you play differently in every deck. In tempo you'll play it more agressively than in control. In tempo decks you want to fill your grave and sculpt your hand to a fast win with disruption. IN control you want value. Especialy in versatile decks like stoneblade and bant your branstorms are crucial. You want to shuffle away the bad part of your deck to draw the good one. The later you cast your brainstorms and the more information you have, the better. You want to be able to shuffle away discard spells or other spells that aren't relevant in that particular matchup or moment.

The best tip i can give you is: playtest, playtest, playtest. Read some articles by Tom Martell, Ben Friedman, Shaheen Soorani (on starcity games). Try to understand each card choice and finish that deck completely. IN stoneblade you rely on the power of individual cards, having some less than optimal choices here and there can be decisive.

THat's how i see it at least. I have only been playing this deck for 2 months (?) now i think. I always end 2-2 or 3-1 with this deck and haven't played a big tournament with it yet so i have a lot to learn myself. I hope it helped though.

[xfxf]

Allright I considered our guys suggestions so I made a few changes,. After swearing to my self that I would never pay 60 bucks for a discard spell, and after debating with the store employee which card should I get, I finally gave in and bought 2 thought seize. I originally wanted to remove 2 marsh flats so I could add 2 polluted deltas, but he convinced me that thoughtsiexe will improve the deck much more than the polluted deltas would. Anyways, I entered a small tourney, 17 players, 5 rounds of Swiss, and I went 2-3. The only reason I got those "wins" is because I got a bye and my last opponent had to drop. Soooo.... There you go, it's either I don't understand how this decks works, or I'm just a realllllly horrible player. I've always played tempo decks back then, and I've always benn ale o play very tightly, but for some reason, when it ones to this version of stoneblade, I dont get the results I wanted. Btw, I'm on the process of getting a 3rd Jtms so I an replace the elspeth. So guys, how, do you guys play this deck? I've read the primers and watched the deck techs and matches, but I still don't get it. Maybe I just dont enjoy playing the deck.

Hi Deadpool and welcome to the forums. Let me tell you this, Esperblade is a difficult deck to play. I've been with High Tide for quite some time and it is recognized as a hard deck to play but when I switched over to Esperblade it felt like the decision trees suddenly tripled for each match.

If you've been playing RUG before it could be a painful switch because even though tempo decks have also very complicated decision trees those decks sometimes play themselves and you can certainly get free wins occasionally. The problem with Esperblade is that there are almost no free wins with the deck, you have earn each one of them. Because of this it sometimes feels "too fair" against combo decks and underpowered against harder hitting fair decks. You have to start getting the feel of the deck to know when to be proactive and when to be reactive, how to maximize the utility from your every single card instead of trying to play bomb after bomb and try to win it by overpowering your opponent. My win percentage started to increase when I started learning how to play with good hands! Sometimes you get the Lingering Souls, SFM and Jace hand and you think you can play bomb after bomb and basically win but you have to learn to squeeze every bit of advantage from each card before using your other resources. Thus you have to be able to decide on the right tool and attack/defense vector for each situation you are in. It is a learning curve but certainly starts feeling better as you progress.

Also for the discard, it may feel weird to play it in a UW control deck and most possibly you are not making the best use of your discard spells now. You can use your discard spells to get information about your opponent, to remove a card you know they already have, for insurance before playing a card you want to stick, or sometimes just to harass them because you don't have much going on. Sometimes it is better to hold on to your discard spells, you don't have to cast it every time you have B open. You just have to start thinking about these things and what you need them for before casting them so you can start getting good value of your every spell.

I hope all these make some sense and would be helpful. Good luck.

[R3D]

Hi Guys,

Want to share a list with you. It works pretty good for me. Made a few unconventional choices:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

sb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Perish
2 Supreme Verdict

Let me explain some choices: I wanted to fit in bob's as an extra card engine maybe im a bit biased cos i like this card so much when I played BW stoneblade. I must admit bob have already won me several games! Your opponent must deal with him or he'll bury the opp. under a lot of cardadvantage. My experience is that you'll solve the life loss when bob gets going....

Furthermore I wanted the deck to be more resilient against p. fire decks, although i didnt want to hurt the manabase too much. I found the solution in playing a second vindicate (2 waste/2 vindi and 3 scm to flashback those 2 vindis seems pretty nice). Vindicate is doing pretty well for me! It saved me several times because it's so flexible (e.g. opposing planeswalkers; cb locks, etc)

Im interested in what you think about this list :) If you like it, try it out some time:)

With kind regards,

[Arsenal]

So after playtesting for months with Junk, I decided to audible to Esperblade at the last minute for SCG Legacy Open Milwaukee. I ran Vidi's GP Denver list (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9908&iddeck=72237), but went -1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Spell Pierce in the sideboard; I anticipated a lot of combo at the Open and I'm not confident enough with Cabal Therapy yet, so I just decided to have access to 4 Force of Will, 4 Spell Pierce postboard.

278 Players announced, which is pretty good I think. This report is all from memory, so I apologize to the other players if I misremembered certain things.

Round 1: Esperblade

Game 1: I open with a strong control hand, with Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Lingering Souls and 2x Jace... unfortunately I never find a fourth land even after Brainstorm + Snapcaster Mage -> Brainstorm. Very, very sad as I watch my opponent Legend rule my 2nd land (Academy Ruins), then Vindicate my 3rd land, leaving me with 1 land in play as I watch him assemble Jace and Batterskull. Onto Game 2. Took out 3x Souls for 3x Geist, took out some creature removal spells like Verdict and a couple StP for Pierce, FoW, and Disenchant. This mirror matchup is all about Jace, so I wanted to ensure that he resolved and Geist gives me an incredibly quick clock that Esperblade has a tough time answering effectively, although I admit that I get far less grindy without Souls. Meh.

Game 2: Opened with Geist and a ton of countermagic. My resolved turn 3 Geist elicited a defeated look from my opponent. 3 turns later, my opponent was dead; it was literally that easy. Onto Game 3; no changes for sideboarding.

Game 3: My opponent's on the play and kept an INCREDIBLY greedy hand of 2x Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, and an Underground Sea. His turn 1 Thoughtseize nabs my Jace, he then proceeds to Brainstorm turn 2... and bricks. He is stuck on 1 land for the next 4 turns, allowing me to cast a Jace that I drew into. He scoops after some number of Fateseals from my Jace.

1-0 in Matches.

Round 2: Goblins

Game 1: I don't exactly remember this game well, other than I know for sure he stomps me to death with a million little green men. I see he's running RG and RW Shocklands, so I (correctly) put him on Tietze's list that just won SCG Open Atlanta. I took out most countermagic spells (Cavern of Souls > me) and boarded in any and every creature hate spell I had (Darkblast, Zealous Persecution, etc).

Game 2: This game goes long as I was able to StP his Lackey, slowing down his hand. I IoK and see a KGrip, which makes my face sour as I'm holding Stoneforge + Jitte in my hand. I misplay a couple turns later and elect not to StP his Warchief on my turn, allowing him to cast Matron on his turn for Ringleader and still have exactly 3 mana open for KGrip; this was pivotal as I was trying to bait the KGrip on my Jitte, allowing my potential Batterskull to be safe. Having taken myself off that plan, I spend about 2-4 turns digging desperately for Verdict as he empties his hand (he's holding KGrip, lands, and a dead Vial), leaving me dead on board unless I find the Verdict. I do not and extend my hand to him. This matchup seems tough as Ringleader just blows me out of the water and my usual "trump" in Batterskull just eats KGrip for free. Not sure what I could've done differently here.

1-1 in Matches.

Round 3: Punishing Maverick

Game 1: I open with 2x StP, 2x Snapcaster, 2 lands, no countermagic and no discard. I either keep this hand and auto-lose to combo and control or I keep and hope my opponent is on creatures. He's on the play and I see turn 1 Windswept Heath into Plains, making me think he's on Miracles; I get sad. He then taps his Plains, and I actually say to him "Sensei's Divining Top resolves"... then see him drop a Mother of Runes; I smile, thinking to myself "My opponent is dead and doesn't even know it". I proceed to draw into a third Stp, and he can never get a creature to stick. I win off Snapcaster equipped with a drawn Jitte. I took out Forces and brought in more creature hate (Perish, Zealous Persecution, etc).

Game 2: My opponent keeps a greedy hand and goes Forest, pass on Turn 1. I IoK him and see Wasteland, GSZ, and Red Elemental Blast + a bunch of creatures needing White mana to be cast. I take his GSZ as I correctly presumed that he was planning on going Turn 2 GSZ for 1, getting Birds of Paradise, giving him access to all colors. He then proceeds to draw into another Wasteland and doesn't see a colored land for the rest of the game. My Jace forces him to scoop.

2-1 in Matches.

Round 4: RUG Delver

Game 1: I feel good going to into this match. His early threats get countered and StPed, leaving him durdling around for a long time. I assemble Stoneforge + Batteskull + Jace as he is cantripping for eternity, trying to find a threat. I StP his Goyf, and he takes a look at my board, then scoops. I take out Forces, Vindicate, Counterspell and bring in Perish, Relic of Progenitus, Zealous Persecution, and I think a Spell Pierce or two.

Game 2: RUG Delver does it's thing and I can't get anything to resolve and his 2x Stifle leaves me looking silly with nothing but uncracked fetches on my side. He plays very tight this game, knowing that my only out is Supreme Verdict on his Nimble Mongoose and Goyf. He gets there in typical RUG Delver fashion. No changes for sideboarding.

Game 3: He mulls down to 5. I open with Relic, Clique, 2 land, and a Jace; I can almost smell 3-1. He lands turn 1 Nimble Mongoose and passes. I land turn 1 Relic... and proceed to get stuck on 2 lands for the rest of the game. He ends up cantripping into another Nimble Mongoose. I pop Relic and we get into a counter war over his Stifle; he ends up winning and that causes him to hit Threshold. I then die. This was a very depressing Game 3 as he mulled to FIVE, but he was a very friendly and skilled player, so I enjoyed the overall match and wish more Magic players can have a fun conversation while still playing well like we did.

2-2 in Matches.

Round 5: Legacy Eggs

Game 1: I don't know what he's on, but suspect it's Eggs due to seeing some of his cards that are played in Modern Eggs. I get him down to 4 life with my Batterskull, but he proceeds to combo off. I watch him for 30 minutes as he combos because I need to see his specific win condition; he shows me his loop of inifinte mana, then shows me his loop of Cephalid Coliseum death. I board out all my creature hate, -3 Jace, -3 Souls and bring in +3 Geist, all of my countermagic, +2 Surgical Extractions, +1 Relic, +1 IoK. I felt Jace was terrible in this matchup due to the redundancy of his deck.

Game 2: I IoK his Second Sunrise, then Surgical Extraction it. I drop Geist, then swing 4 times for the win. No sideboard changes.

Game 3: I have Geist out and he's dead next turn. He tries to go off with Faith's Reward, but my Force and 2x Pierce stop him. He was a very technical player that showed me exactly what he was doing with his mana, his graveyard, etc. I appreciated his care for making sure everything was nice and neat for his opponent to observe; I felt that I understood exactly what he was doing at every step of his combo.

3-2 in Matches.

Round 6: TinFins

Game 1: I lose on turn 3 to an attacking Griselbrand AND Emrakul. -3 Souls, +3 Geist, and I took out stuff like EE and Verdict for more countermagic, giving me 4 Force and 4 Pierce postboard.

Game 2: I lose on a turn 2 Griselbrand -> Tendrils death. After the match, my opponent points out my misplay for not Karakas-ing his Griselbrand with his -7 trigger on the stack. It wouldn't have mattered at all, but I appreciated that. This matchup was utter brutality.

3-3 in Matches. I briefly consider dropping, but I am told by my teammates that x-3 can still at least get Top 64 ($50), so I decide to play on.

Round 7: Burn

Game 1: I open with a nice mix of creature hate and countermagic. He gets me down to 4-6 life (he's then in topdeck mode) before my Stoneforge -> Jitte takes over the game. I board out slow stuff like Souls, Vindicate, Jace, Verdict, EE, etc. and bring in more countermagic and Geists.

Game 2: It's almost an exact repeat of Game 1, but Stoneforge -> Batterskull gets it done this time.

4-3 in Matches.

Round 8: Belcher

Game 1: He's on the play and I open with a counter heavy hand w/ Force of Will. He goes off and tries to go for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens; he popped LED in order to generate enough mana for Empty the Warrens. I Force of Will his Burning Wish, leaving him with no hand and a Chrome Mox in play. I proceed to win easily with Stoneforge -> Batterskull. I board out all creature hate, -3 Souls and board in +3 Geist, and the rest of my countermagic + 1 IoK.

Game 2: He plays Taiga, then passes. My turn 1 Thoughtseize sees LED, a Petal, and 2x Belcher. I grab the LED. He never is able to get in the game as he's standed on mana and not able to cast Belcher while I'm killing him with Geist. I Thoughtseize near the end and grab his Simian Spirit Guide, which ends any hope he had of casting Belcher.

5-3 in Matches. Feeling good as I'm in 63rd place after 8 rounds.

Round 9: Dredge

Game 1: I'm on the play and have a pretty nice hand of Thoughtseize, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and lands. I Thoughtseize and see Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, 2x Faithless Looting, a Dredger, and Careful Study. I enter Frowntown and grab Breakthrough. He proceeds to combo off on turn 3/4? and kills me with Flayer of the Hatebound shenanigans. Side out slow stuff like -1 Vindicate, -1 Verdict, and -1 Jace and -3 Souls for +2 Surgical, +1 Relic, +3 Geist.

Game 2: I have a Geist on board and I'm able to get him down to single digits. He then combos off and kills me with Elesh Norn + zombie tokens; I didn't see any graveyard hate this game unfortunately, but it seems like a tough matchup anyway.

5-4 in Matches. I finished in 69th place.

Props:

+ Nice, friendly opponents throughout the day.
+ Almost finishing in money in my first SCG Open.
+ Trading in a ton of random stuff for $150 store credit, allowing me to finish off my playset of Savannah.

Slops:

- Swamp ass smelling dudes.
- No food/concessions in the Delta Center.
- Typical (horrible) Wisconsin weather; we actually had light snow in the middle of April. WTF.

[ZimAshe]

OK, as sad as this is to admit for me I seem to have a real blind spot to "Goblins".
played them twice this weekend. sided out FoWs for surgical and BEBs and Sword of Fire and Ice and still lost.
does anyone have any suggestions on a game plan against the little green men?

[Asthereal]

Supreme Verdict to blow them b@stards up?
Other nasty trick could be a Ghostly Prison combined with a few Entlightened Tutors.

You could also try what I used to do: 4x Kitchen Finks on side.
That's absolutely brilliant against all aggro (except for Merfolk, but that matchup sucks anyway).

(Edit: why side in Surgicals? They have no influence on the board state at all, and the little green men don't seem to be abusing the grave all that much.)

[AEnesidem]

-snip-
You board out lingering souls against the mirror? wouldn't it be better to side out forces? it's an attrition match. You said it yourself jace is everything, so why not keep souls in to respond to their souls and protect jace? Why would you remove your best card against fair decks. Force is major card disadvantage and spell pierce is mediocre as the only really relevant thing it stops is jace.There's much better cards to remove than L-souls IMO.



OK, as sad as this is to admit for me I seem to have a real blind spot to "Goblins".
played them twice this weekend. sided out FoWs for surgical and BEBs and Sword of Fire and Ice and still lost.
does anyone have any suggestions on a game plan against the little green men?
.
Side in a path to exile, supereme verdict, zealous persecution, darkblast or any other removal. Eventually keep 1 or 2 forces in to counter the ringleaders. Side out Thoughtseizes, some FoW's, spell pierces and anything else that is bad aganst them.
Gameplan? get jitte or sword of fire and ice online and win. SoFaI or Jitte is GG for goblins if they can't get rid of it. Beyond that you just have to stop their ringleaders so they lose gass or hit them with a verdict on the right time.

[Arsenal]

You board out lingering souls against the mirror? wouldn't it be better to side out forces? it's an attrition match. You said it yourself jace is everything, so why not keep souls in to respond to their souls and protect jace? Why would you remove your best card against fair decks. Force is major card disadvantage and spell pierce is mediocre as the only really relevant thing it stops is jace.There's much better cards to remove than L-souls IMO.

This is true and could've been mis-boarding by me. My line of thought at the time was this; if my opponent keeps his Souls in, he can't attack my Jace + block my Geist at the same time, so he either whittles my Jace down or dies in three turns due to Geist. With 4 Force + 4 Spell Pierce, I felt like I was almost guaranteed to resolve Jace and/or Geist and if that happened, I cared less about his Souls than I normally would. Esperblade has a tough time dealing with a resolved Geist as I've been on the dealing and receiving end before and it sucks pretty hard. Also, Pierce on their Souls when I have Geist out is pretty brutal for them. I think Pierce has more value in this matchup then you're giving it credit; many of their Snapcaster -> whatever will be for exact mana, so Pierce stops any Snapcaster shenanigans unless they wait for another 2 turns, all while I'm Forcing through my Jace or Geist.

[Malakai]

Ways to deal with Liliana go:
Oblivion Ring
Detention Sphere
Pithing Needle
Spell Pierce
Force of Will
Counterspell

Ways to deal with Liliana that are actually good against decks packing mana dorks, discard, and abrupt decay:
....Celestial Purge?
....Elspeth?
Baby Jace?
Boros Charm?
Lightning Bolt?

I guess Lingering Souls is pretty strong in this role. The problem is playing Lingering Souls has a profound effect on the way your deck is constructed. Esper plays discard because they want to tap out on 3 for some souls action. To me this just makes the mana base too fragile. I've found that one of the best things I have been able to do to increase my win percentage is to minimize games I lose to mana and mana disruption. Splashing for souls, i.e. UWb, is not out of the question, but then you have to be very mindful of your count of other three drops, i.e. Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage.

[Arsenal]

Celestial Purge looks interesting. I know a couple Junk players were testing it and found it to be decent. It hits a lot of stuff like Sneak Attack, Liliana of the Veil, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, all Goblins, Batterskull Germ token, Sulfuric Vortex/Sulfur Elemental (very common RUG Delver sideboard cards), etc. I think it may warrant a slot.

[ZimAshe]

Supreme Verdict to blow them b@stards up?
Other nasty trick could be a Ghostly Prison combined with a few Entlightened Tutors.

You could also try what I used to do: 4x Kitchen Finks on side.
That's absolutely brilliant against all aggro (except for Merfolk, but that matchup sucks anyway).

(Edit: why side in Surgicals? They have no influence on the board state at all, and the little green men don't seem to be abusing the grave all that much.)

yeah my list has one verdict in the main. not sure what i was thinking about with the extraction.

think my plan should be -2 FoW +2 BEB -3 IoK +2 PtE & +1 Darkblast?

[DragoFireheart]

Geist is amazing in Modern and should be in every sideboard for Blade Control players. Geist is very amazing at what he does: ending games fast if they can't block him or mass removal him. He might be good main-decked depending on your meta.

[AEnesidem]

This is true and could've been mis-boarding by me. My line of thought at the time was this; if my opponent keeps his Souls in, he can't attack my Jace + block my Geist at the same time, so he either whittles my Jace down or dies in three turns due to Geist. With 4 Force + 4 Spell Pierce, I felt like I was almost guaranteed to resolve Jace and/or Geist and if that happened, I cared less about his Souls than I normally would. Esperblade has a tough time dealing with a resolved Geist as I've been on the dealing and receiving end before and it sucks pretty hard. Also, Pierce on their Souls when I have Geist out is pretty brutal for them. I think Pierce has more value in this matchup then you're giving it credit; many of their Snapcaster -> whatever will be for exact mana, so Pierce stops any Snapcaster shenanigans unless they wait for another 2 turns, all while I'm Forcing through my Jace or Geist.

I thought that first too, sure it stops things but it doesn't do enough. If you have extra discard or other business spells in the side that can replace pierce it is best to side them in IMO. The point with pierce is that along with your discard spells it's a bad draw late game when you need gass. It can stop some things but 90% of the time you'll want business instead.

[Arsenal]

I thought that first too, sure it stops things but it doesn't do enough. If you have extra discard or other business spells in the side that can replace pierce it is best to side them in IMO. The point with pierce is that along with your discard spells it's a bad draw late game when you need gass. It can stop some things but 90% of the time you'll want business instead.

My sideboard was:

1 Darkblast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Postboard against Esperblade, I had sided in my 1 IoK, 3 Geist, 1 Force, 2 Pierce, 1 Disenchant, 1 Zealous Persecution (going off of memory). I took out 1 Verdict, 3 Souls, 1 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 EE, and maybe a couple other cards. Also, with a resolved Geist (pretty easy to resolve since my Esperblade opponent likely sided out his Forces), games don't go super, duper long where Spell Pierce becomes worse.

[matunos]

yeah my list has one verdict in the main. not sure what i was thinking about with the extraction.

think my plan should be -2 FoW +2 BEB -3 IoK +2 PtE & +1 Darkblast?


yeah my list has one verdict in the main. not sure what i was thinking about with the extraction.

think my plan should be -2 FoW +2 BEB -3 IoK +2 PtE & +1 Darkblast?

I usually take out all the Forces. About the only thing they're relevant for is countering a turn 1 Vial, and if you're siding out 2, your chances of drawing a FoW when you don't want it is greater than having the FoW when you need it.

Pierce(s) usually go too, but I usually keep a singleton Counterspell for something like REB.

I usually cut a Jace or two as well, as they don't usually live long with REBs and goblin armies.

IMO, discard isn't terrible, and probably fine unless you have better stuff to board in (like the BEB, Ghostly Prison, etc. if you have those).

Batterskull, Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice (if you're running that) are all pretty good. Not quite as strong as against Merfolk, but they can allow you to stabilize and keep Goblins from swarming.

[Arsenal]

I feel like we're very soft versus Graveyard based strategies. We have 3 sideboard cards (2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Relic of Progenitus) to deal with them and it just feels like it's not enough. I think I may test -2 Surgical Extraction, -1 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Spell Pierce, +4 Leyline of the Void.

[AEnesidem]

My sideboard was:

1 Darkblast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Postboard against Esperblade, I had sided in my 1 IoK, 3 Geist, 1 Force, 2 Pierce, 1 Disenchant, 1 Zealous Persecution (going off of memory). I took out 1 Verdict, 3 Souls, 1 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 EE, and maybe a couple other cards. Also, with a resolved Geist (pretty easy to resolve since my Esperblade opponent likely sided out his Forces), games don't go super, duper long where Spell Pierce becomes worse.

You make some weird choices. I would never side out counterspel or E.E. Counterspell, in contrary to spell pierce is extremely good lategame. E.E answers their tokens and about every other pesky permanent like jitte, not to mention it's extremely powerful to recur explosives with academy ruins. The forces can protect your jace but the card disadvantage may make you lose the game in any other scenario.
You also open yourself up to very bad topdecks: force, pierce, discard spells. If your opponent sides out his counters and discard for business he's most likely going to win because you'll fall out of the game once your initial onslaught is answered.
That's my opinion at least. If they leave in their qouls and stall you out or drop their own geist, they'll win becaus ethey have the bigger guns while you'll slowly draw into a ton of dead cards.

Geist is good in the mirror, but it doesn't win the matchup on its own, geist still dies to EE, snapcaster, clique, souls, verdict and legend rule. Once your geist plan fails it seems you have nothing left.

[Malakai]

So you think geist is great in the mirror, but you board out lingering Souls, the card that makes geist look silly?

[Arsenal]

Could've been mis-boarding, but Geist was really good everytime I sided him in versus control and combo and other decks that don't care about 1/1 tokens.

EDIT: After playing 9 rounds and seeing what my opponents sided in versus me, do you think we crutch a bit too much on our graveyard to give us value? A lot of my opponents sided in stuff like Surgical Extraction, Relic, etc so that it turns off Souls, Snapcaster and Academy Ruins.

[matunos]

I feel like we're very soft versus Graveyard based strategies. We have 3 sideboard cards (2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Relic of Progenitus) to deal with them and it just feels like it's not enough. I think I may test -2 Surgical Extraction, -1 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Spell Pierce, +4 Leyline of the Void.

Don't discount Snapcaster Mage with Extraction (and/or Extirpate).

Also, I prefer Nihil Spellbomb over Relic because it replaces itself, and with Academy Ruins active, is recurrable (without losing a draw).

[mike1987]

I enjoy playing stoneblade due to the fact that it is very flexible but at times being flexible has it cons. For eg, i drew a "controllish" hand against miracles and lost the game or the fact that I kept an aggresive hand against an aggro deck. My question is do you guys foresee what role a stoneblade player has to take before playing against the opponent and should we mull for eg if we drew a controllish hand against a more orientated control deck like miracles?

[DragoFireheart]

So you think geist is great in the mirror, but you board out lingering Souls, the card that makes geist look silly?

It might be worth running Eiganjo Castle. It'll force the other player to block with 4 tokens to kill a Geist.

[ThediscoPower]

It might be worth running Eiganjo Castle. It'll force the other player to block with 4 tokens to kill a Geist.

Still sounds too narrow I think. I know I am already siding in things like zealous persecution to deal with situations like those anyways.

[Arsenal]

Still sounds too narrow I think. I know I am already siding in things like zealous persecution to deal with situations like those anyways.

I agree. I sided in Zealous to deal with opposing Souls token (didn't see many on Sunday though).

What do we do against Dredge? When I got paired up final round versus it, I felt like I lost before the game even began.

[ThediscoPower]

What do we do against Dredge? When I got paired up final round versus it, I felt like I lost before the game even began.

There was an old article on starcity (back in 2011), where the author goes on a rant on how stoneblade players should not rely on things like leyline to battle dredge, because the tools we have are enough to beat that deck and that players just don't know how to play against dredge. Let me find that article, and i'm coming back at you, because what he said actually could help you out.

Actually, found it :

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23264_How_To_Kill_Everyone_With_UW_Stoneforge.html

Look at the part playing against dredge. Replace purify the grave with surgical extraction.

[Arsenal]

I sided in 2 Surgical and 1 Relic for my g2 against Dredge, but didn't see any of them. Maybe should've mulled more aggressively; perhaps the allure of Brainstorm did me in (keeping a good hand w/ Brainstorm, but no graveyard hate). Idk, but this matchup felt dreadful.

EDIT: That article is quite old. Many Blade players are on Vidi's Esper list (or close to it) and don't run stuff like Mutavault and Wasteland to help with Bridge from Below. Also, if Dredge kept a decent-ish hand, then games generally don't go long enough to get SFM -> Batterskull -> 3: Return Batterskull to hand in order to knock out their Bridges.

[rancOr_]

As for graveyard hate: I have always respected that and dedicated 4slots to it,which I think is correct. In my opinion 2surgical and 2nihil spellbomb is optimal.

[ac3eb]

Round 4: RUG Delver

Game 1: I feel good going to into this match. His early threats get countered and StPed, leaving him durdling around for a long time. I assemble Stoneforge + Batteskull + Jace as he is cantripping for eternity, trying to find a threat. I StP his Goyf, and he takes a look at my board, then scoops. I take out Forces, Vindicate, Counterspell and bring in Perish, Relic of Progenitus, Zealous Persecution, and I think a Spell Pierce or two.

Game 2: RUG Delver does it's thing and I can't get anything to resolve and his 2x Stifle leaves me looking silly with nothing but uncracked fetches on my side. He plays very tight this game, knowing that my only out is Supreme Verdict on his Nimble Mongoose and Goyf. He gets there in typical RUG Delver fashion. No changes for sideboarding.

Game 3: He mulls down to 5. I open with Relic, Clique, 2 land, and a Jace; I can almost smell 3-1. He lands turn 1 Nimble Mongoose and passes. I land turn 1 Relic... and proceed to get stuck on 2 lands for the rest of the game. He ends up cantripping into another Nimble Mongoose. I pop Relic and we get into a counter war over his Stifle; he ends up winning and that causes him to hit Threshold. I then die. This was a very depressing Game 3 as he mulled to FIVE, but he was a very friendly and skilled player, so I enjoyed the overall match and wish more Magic players can have a fun conversation while still playing well like we did.

2-2 in Matches.


Hey Arsenal, I was your Round 4 RUG opponent. Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed playing against you (easily the most entertaining match of my tournament). Overall a very close match and you clearly knew what you were doing. Wish more matches were like that as well. I got pretty lucky game 3 - I was already envisioning the 2-2 after the mull to 5. Sorry you landed just outside the money spots though :( I was praying not to face dredge in my last 2 rounds (they were everywhere).

[Arsenal]

Hey Arsenal, I was your Round 4 RUG opponent. Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed playing against you (easily the most entertaining match of my tournament). Overall a very close match and you clearly knew what you were doing. Wish more matches were like that as well. I got pretty lucky game 3 - I was already envisioning the 2-2 after the mull to 5. Sorry you landed just outside the money spots though :( I was praying not to face dredge in my last 2 rounds (they were everywhere).

Heh, fun is what Magic is all about (aside from that god-damned variance). I had a great time in our match and glad to see you placed very well (15th?) in the tourney; hope to see you back in October for SCG Open Milwaukee.

[DragoFireheart]

Still sounds too narrow I think. I know I am already siding in things like zealous persecution to deal with situations like those anyways.

It's narrow but it also doesn't come into play tapped.

Geist will QUICKLY end games in just 3 turns. A jitte with a couple counters + that land and Geist means he'll be extremely difficult to kill. Between Jace bouncing stuff and snappy removal, Geist will have chances to swing. Also, he doesn't care about yard hate

[Malakai]

It's narrow but it also doesn't come into play tapped.

Geist will QUICKLY end games in just 3 turns. A jitte with a couple counters + that land and Geist means he'll be extremely difficult to kill. Between Jace bouncing stuff and snappy removal, Geist will have chances to swing. Also, he doesn't care about yard hate
So in this hypothetical game where Geist is good, you have:

Resolved Geist
Found and resolved Jitte.
Equipped Jitte.
An active Jace.
Resolved removal, snapcaster, and the removal again.

Explain to me how Geist is winning this game in a way that a 1/1 vanilla creature couldn't?

[DragoFireheart]

So in this hypothetical game where Geist is good, you have:

Resolved Geist
Found and resolved Jitte.
Equipped Jitte.
An active Jace.
Resolved removal, snapcaster, and the removal again.

Explain to me how Geist is winning this game in a way that a 1/1 vanilla creature couldn't?

He can't be targeted by removal and he's dealing 6 times as much damage? I don't understand what it is you are asking.

[Serbitar]

I played Esper at GP Strasbourg, finishing 24th (with the worst tiebreakers amongst all 37pters).

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Island

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Celestial Purge
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

List felt solid all around – Geist won a game vs. Burn but never came up otherwise (no mirror, no miracles). Mishra's Factory was unimpressive, but I did not miss Wasteland either. I really like Celestial Purge vs. Liliana decks and (to lesser extend) Sneak and Show. I also like Snare MD over Pierce (although it does weaken the already weak G1 vs. Show and Tell).

Matchups were
----
Dredge 2:0
Omnitell 0:2
NicFit 1:2
TES 2:1
BW 2:1
D&T 2:0
MUD 2:1
Burn 2:0
BUG Delver 2:1
----
Reanimator 2:1
Jund 2:0
Thresh 1:2
Shardless BUG 2:1
Burn RUG 1:1:2
Junk 2:0
BUG Planeswalkers 2:0
----
12-3-1

I might do a report with more details if people are interested, although my memory is getting fuzzy already.

[Arsenal]

I would like to know how your Dredge and Reanimator matches went. I played against TinFins and Dredge and I never felt like I was in the game at all.

[DragoFireheart]

I would like to know how your Dredge and Reanimator matches went. I played against TinFins and Dredge and I never felt like I was in the game at all.

Same. What do you do for these decks besides sideboard and pray?

[Serbitar]

Dredge was very lucky – I would expect to get stomped G1 and hope for an awkward draw coupled with some Surgicals postboard.
In the actual match, I mulligan to 5 on the play. He dredges 3 quick bridges but not much else, notably no 2nd Therapy (after the first whiffed on Force), so Mystic -> Batterskull stabilizes and a blocking Snapcaster eats the Bridges. I believe it was this game where he messed up killing Stoneforge with Darkblast.
G2 he never dredges: He leads with Therapy on Surgical (whiffs). I pierce the second Therapy (targeting himself) - F.Looting then resolves but only discards one Dredger. I find a Surgical.
(I believe I boarded: +3 Surgical, +Force, +2 Pierce, +EE, +Purge, +Verdict, -3 Souls, -3 Jace, -2 Snare, -Vindicate)

Vs Reanimator, I get him to think I'm on High Tide (I lead Island, Preordain), so he reanimates Iona on blue t1. I fetch Scrubland on my t2 but have no removal anyway. He reaminates Griselbrand turn 2. I die.
G2 I Inquisition his Show and Tell, Surgical his first attempt at reanimation and then his Show and Tells as he had drawn another. He never gets anything going.
G3 he has the nuts: T1 reanimate Griselbrand with Force backup. I have Surgical with Force backup though. So guess I was lucky here as well.
(I believe I boarded: +3 Surgical, +Force, +2 Pierce, +Thoughtseize, +3 Geist, -2 StP, -Jitte, -EE, -Verdict, -3 Souls, -Vindicate, -Stoneforge)

The Reanimator matchup is fine postboard and winnable preboard (although you just cannot beat their god draw preboard).

[Arsenal]

Dredge was very lucky – I would expect to get stomped G1 and hope for an awkward draw coupled with some Surgicals postboard.
In the actual match, I mulligan to 5 on the play. He dredges 3 quick bridges but not much else, notably no 2nd Therapy (after the first whiffed on Force), so Mystic -> Batterskull stabilizes and a blocking Snapcaster eats the Bridges.
G2 he never dredges: He leads with Therapy on Surgical (whiffs). I pierce the second Therapy (targeting himself) - F.Looting then resolves but only discards one Dredger. I find a Surgical.
(I believe I boarded: +3 Surgical, +Force, +2 Pierce, +EE, +Purge, +Verdict, -3 Souls, -3 Jace, -2 Snare, -Vindicate)

Vs Reanimator, I get him to think I'm on High Tide (I lead Island, Preordain), so he reanimates Iona on blue t1. I fetch Scrubland on my t2 but have no removal anyway. He reaminates Griselbrand turn 2. I die.
G2 I Inquisition his Show and Tell, Surgical his first attempt at reanimation and the his Show and Tells as he had drawn another. He never gets anything going.
G3 he has the nuts: T1 reanimate Griselbrand with Force backup. I have Surgical with Force backup though. So guess I was lucky here as well.
(I believe I boarded: +3 Surgical, +Force, +2 Pierce, +Thoughtseize, +3 Geist, -2 StP, -Jitte, -EE, -Verdict, -3 Souls, -Vindicate, -Stoneforge)

The Reanimator matchup is fine postboard and winnable preboard (although you just cannot beat their god draw preboard).

I'll mulligan more aggressively in these matchups as I boarded in 2 Surgical + 1 Relic, but never saw any of them across 4 games versus Dredge and TinFins.

[Serbitar]

Yeah - guess it helps if you draw your sideboard. Although I would not mulligan too aggressively for Surgical vs. Dredge (they can just have a Therapy for it) and a quick Mystic is also very important and good if you can stop them from dredging 1-2 turns.

[Kirika]

@Qweerioes
That actually seems interesting splashing green for Life from the loam. I rather have black for Dark Confidant and discard though.

@Kirdie
Supreme Verdict is pretty good vs aggro decks especially Merfolk. Flusterstorm might be worth running if you see Storm. I dunno about Geists. Just didn't seem to work all that well when I tried it. Wouldn't have 4 Geists maybe 2-3 if that. Engineered Explosives is better if you have 3 colors but can be ok on 1 and 2 in certain match ups. Vendillion Clique is good in control and vs combo since you don't have black for discard.

@Malakai
Academy Ruins is quite good with recuring Engineered Explosives and can get back your destroyed equipment.

You could also use discard like Thoughtseize or Inquisition to make them discard Liliana before they play it but that doesn't work if they have multiples in hand.

Sacred Ground costs 1W if you really fear land destruction. Crucible is probably better with reusing fetch lands though.

@DragoFireheart
I'm skeptical about Geist just seems that Lingering Souls tokens, Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique can all get in his way and Supreme Verdict is a card.

@Arsenal
I run 3 Rest in Peace instead of the usual 2 Surgical Extraction and Relic of Progenitus. Rest In Peace is what you want versus both dredge and reanimator since it just locks them out till they get rid of it and you'll have the counterspell waiting for that. Surgical really isn't enough against Dredge. Rest in Peace also solves your Punishing Fire problem since they can just play around Surgical. Rest in Peace also nerfs Tarmagoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Rest In Peace does die to Abrupt Decay but can't have everything. Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm is also really good vs dredge since they run so few lands they rarely have the mana to pay for it. Counter their Breakthroughs and Careful Studies to slow them down and even LEDs can be worth countering so they can't get the free discard and flashback Faithless looting

In the Esperblade mirror I usually board out my 3 Force of Wills because they are card disadvantage and 1 Swords to Plowshares for Zealous Persicution, Disenchant, Sword of Feast and Famine and a Vendillion Clique.

[AEnesidem]

Dredge is actually pretty average but absoltely doable. You have counters, whic slows them down often forcing them to grind you out more than bursting you down. Bouncing batterskull is a thing, killing your own creatures with jitte too, You have lots of removal in snapcaster+stp and have engineered explosives against the tokens. Snapcaster flashing in removes their bridges, same with clique. I actually leave lingering souls in because when they are forced to grind, these tokens win the grind. When they die, they remove bridges. You have the tools to stop their fast start and you have the tools to survive and win the grind.
I've played dredge for some time and i don't think dredge has an easy time winning from esperblade, it's the inexperience of players against dredge and the lack of knowledge about dredge that gives dredge players free wins.
Besides being a combo deck, dredge is a grindy aggro deck.

My record against tin fins is positive. We have 2 players at the LGS who played the deck and i played against it once at the LGS at my college. The problem with this deck is that they can draw the win anytime. Sometimes, all they need is one stupid reanimation card. Main target to counter are the ways to dump targets into the grave. If you can stop that you're on the way to victory.

Same goes with reanimator: stop the entombs and careful studies, not the reanimation spells. I haven't really tested against reanimator but i don't see why it would be a terrible matchup.

I noticed that graveyard decks are a weak spot though so i upped the graveyard hate in my board to 2 extraction, 1 relic and 1 spellbomb.

I don't agree on surgical not being enough though. Often people target the wrong things. People like to target dredges, which is a poor choice unless you expect your opponent to have only 1 dredger in hand. Extract narcomoeba's so they can't won fast, extract bridges so they become a bad aggro deck, extract ichorids so they can't grind. These are the 3 targets, extracting anything else is a waste of time.
Removing 2 of these pieces is game over for dredge. Don't forget we have snapcaster mages and brainstorms, 1 extraction slows them down, the second one often puts them in a bad spot.

[Tigro215]

Hello all! First time here and just looking for advice. Here is my deck list
1x Batterskull
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Flooded Strand
3x Force of Will
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Island
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karakas
2x Lingering Souls
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Ponder
1x Scrubland
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Pierce
1x spell snare
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Swamp
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
3x Tundra
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Underground Sea
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Vindicate
1x Wasteland

Side:
1x blue elemental blast
1x Darkblast
1x detention sphere
1x Disenchant
2x flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Perish
1x relic of progenitus
1x supreme verdict
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Zealous Persecution

Basically I have the absolute worst time against punishing jund. I am really unsure of what else to do in this match up and have been considering Rest In Peace (over my other gy hate in board). Is this worth while? Also I am only running 2 souls and its been ok but 3 is still where I want to be, I just dont know what to replace. My flex land is a wasteland because I felt like Ruins just simply wasnt getting the job done 8 times out of 10. Just curious if you have any recommendations or see any holes in my list that need to be fixed.
PS: I have a tournament this weekend, will attempt to take good notes and provide a report

[ThediscoPower]

EDIT: That article is quite old. Many Blade players are on Vidi's Esper list (or close to it) and don't run stuff like Mutavault and Wasteland to help with Bridge from Below. Also, if Dredge kept a decent-ish hand, then games generally don't go long enough to get SFM -> Batterskull -> 3: Return Batterskull to hand in order to knock out their Bridges.

Old? yes. However, I fail to see where what he says is entirely unrelevant. Yes, you don't play wasteland or mutavault / mishra's, but You still pretty much play the same cards, if only that you play a bunch of discard spells (that are supposed to help you in the early stage of the game anyways). It isn't because an article is old that the theory changes that much. You still beat those decks the same way, because they don't change that much (dredge especially, did not change that much). You still break them by removing their creatures, and that much has not changed. Also, it's not like stoneblade even got faster over the years, if only that dredge was more prevalent back then (no deathrites, no rest in peace).

Now yes, they can kill you before you do anything, if you don't have the required cards to interact with them. But that's actually also true about decks like storm. You have to mull agressively, and get the cards you need (swords, snapcaster, surgical, countermagic for their nuts engine).

Finally, please don't dismiss those old articles because the guy isn't playing EXACTLY the same list as you are, and because the article is old. There is a lot to learn from those articles actually (especially when you just started playing the deck), because people suffered roughly the same problems back then than they did now. If the solution sometimes can't be the exact same, the theory can still be applied.


@Tigro215

Hi!!! If you ask me, I am pretty happy with 2 lingering souls personnally, however, if you want to play 3 absolutely, I think I would cut the snare, and then chose if I want to play 2 snares or 2 pierces maindeck. I don't think I would play both, mainly because I don't want to cut in my discard spells. Also, if punishing fire is a problem, rest in piece is one of the best way to deal with it, really. Recently, I have been testing a second batterskull in the sideboard to help out, but I did not get to play against jund recently, so I don't know how it is going to do in practice.

[kirdie]

Seeing that Darin Minard got 6th place in SCG Atlanta with UW Stoneblade (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54854), does that mean it's powerlevel is the same as Esper Stoneblade or is that just an outlier?

His list:


4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Gilded Drake
1 Humility
2 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Supreme Verdict

[jin]

Crucible of the Worlds solves your Sinkhole issues because it's a defensive strategy against a strategy that attacks our lands. Sure, it gets hit by GB spot removal, but for those that keep the spot removal in there, they are holding plenty dead cards. If they board in extra spot removal, they are boarding in more dead cards.

Someone can argue that by playing Crucibles, their cards are no longer dead, but you are boarding out stuff that can't be played against them for something to defend against their mana denial strategy. I think that is more important.

Also, you are gaining card advantage when they remove your Crucible of Worlds with their spot removal because you also get a land drop that turn.

Scenario 1 - they bring in ONLY sinkhole and board out Abrupt Decay
.Their sinkholes are useless

Scenario 2 - they bring in ONLY sinkhole and don't board out Abrupt Decay
.Their sinkholes are less effective because you can recover at least one land
.They might or might not have the Abrupt Decay
.If they have Abrupt Decay, then the extra decays are dead for the rest of the game
.What will they hit? Your tutor? Your tokens? Your Snapcasters?

Scenario 3 - They bring in sinkhole and maelstrom pulse
.Their sinkholes are less effective
.They lose card advantage trading 2 for 1 against your Crucible of Worlds
.They draw many dead spot removal
.Don't rely too much on your tokens as Pulse become effective


Crucible is certainly a powerful piece to solving this particular puzzle, but just saying "Crucible of Worlds" and calling the issue resolved isn't helping anyone.

Land gets blown up, crucible solves it. I don't see the issue.


Especially since it dies to Abrupt Decay.

Who keeps spot removal in against Esperblade? There is almost nothing to hit except for Jitte/Sword. If they keep it in, that's fine. They hit cards that are more defensive than offensive. Cards that Esperblade wins with still don't get hit by Abrupt Decay

A deck can only play 4x Abrupt Decays


and the postboard pulses and grips they will probably bring in anyways. Playing a 24th land ia probably a good idea tho.



Things hit it, but you gain card advantage if they hit the Crucibles with Maelstrom Pulse. You get a land when it resolves. That means something. You also buy a turn. Another thing you can do is play smart with your lands and don't break your fetchlands so easily.

[ZimAshe]

So i know i'm not breaking the mold here or anything. this is pretty much your standard stoneblade list.

Creatures:
4 x stoneforge Mystic
3 x Snapcaster Mage
1 x Vendilion Clique

Spells:
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
3 x Inquisition of Kozilek
2 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Lingering Souls
1 x Batterskull
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Counterspell
1 x Vindicate
1 x Supreme Verdict
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
3 x Flooded Strand
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Marsh Flats
3 x Tundra
3 x Underground Sea
1 x Scrubland
1 x Glacial Fotress
1 x Riptide Laboratory
2 x Island
2 x Plains
1 x Swamp

Some of the things you'll notice is Cabal Therapy over Thoguhtseize and no Karakas. This is primarily due to availability. If I had those cards they would most assuridly be in the deck.

My main focus with this deck is to generate a proper sidebaord and sideboard plan.
My current board looks like this:

Sideboard
1 x Disenchant
2 x Rest in Peace
1 x Path to Exile
1 x Darkblast
2 x Blue Elemental Blast
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Zealous Persecution.

So how much better is DB than another PtE in the board? or does ZP trump both of those?
Does it make sense to run the second Batterskull in the board ala Zvi's list from the invitational?
Is there anything that I'm missing that should be in the board that I dont have?

[Malakai]

Land gets blown up, crucible solves it. I don't see the issue.


Yeah that works great in magical christms land. In reality, you have to draw the card, not get it Thoughtseized, Hymned, or Liliana'd, have the mana to cast it, then get to use it. How many are you boarding? This might be a realistic plan if you have 4 but in the real world where we don't have all the sideboard space we could ever want it's just not going to happen on any sort of consistent basis.

tl;dr My point stands that just saying "play Crucible" is incredibly short-sighted.

[zamerik]

Seeing that Darin Minard got 6th place in SCG Atlanta with UW Stoneblade (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54854), does that mean it's powerlevel is the same as Esper Stoneblade or is that just an outlier?

His list:


4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Gilded Drake
1 Humility
2 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Supreme Verdict


Can we discuss this a little bit more? I don't think anyone has responded to it yet. There are a couple of benefits that you get from playing a straight U/W list, such as a stronger, more resilient manabase and stronger Force of Wills, but you lose access to discard/hand disruption, Lingering Souls, and the catch-all that is Vindicate.

I have been an advocate of the straight U/W Stoneblade lists for awhile now, although I'm not entirely sure if it's because I enjoy it more than esper or if I don't want to drop the cash on Polluted Deltas and Underground Seas.... I only began playing legacy right after the Jace/Stoneforge bannings in standard. I wanted to continue playing with those cards, and jumping to legacy seemed like the best bet once Stoneblade lists started having huge success.

Here was the ultimate budget list that I started my foray into legacy with:

U/W Stoneblade - 35th place at Legacy Open on 6/17/2012 - Indianapolis, IN

Creatures (9)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (25)

1 Batterskull
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder
1 Wrath of God

Lands (23)
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Chill
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Day of Judgment
1 Wrath of God

Now obviously, this list has evolved over time, but starting at this point taught me a lot about the deck. First, it reinforced the fact that basic lands are awesome in a field full of wastelands. Nearly every game, I would search up basics with every fetch and still have no problem casting my spells, while simultaneously blanking some of my opponent's spells. Against non-wasteland opponents, it really wasn't a problem fetching a hallowed fountain in tapped at EoT if I didn't need the mana for a pierce, counterspell, brainstorm, etc. My losses on the day came against G/W Maverick and Enchantress (a deck I had never played against nor researched). I was also paired up against an Esper Stoneblade deck and was able to outgrind him in the late game, even digging my way out of a topdeck war when he had a Clique/Karakas soft-lock on me. I felt like the control deck against Esper, whereas he was the beatdown.

As I continued playing strictly U/W, I felt that this trend was consistent, in that if I was paired against an Esperblade list, it felt as though they were the beatdown and I was the control (a role I am much more comfortable with). U/W seems like it is the better reactive deck, whereas Esper is more proactive due to their hand disruption. U/W tends to have stronger Force of Wills also, in the sense that you should (in theory) have more options available to you on what to pitch to your FoW should you have to use it.

Here is the list I am currently working on:

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
4 Spell Pierce
1 Detention Sphere
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ponder
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict

It's pretty similar to the list before, althought I have been toying with a very minor red splash (Volcanic Island) just for REB/Pyroblast out of the board, a change that I have been pretty happy with. I also am a strong proponent of Elspeth MD, as she has won me more games than I can even recall. My games tend to go extremely long, and she can close a game quite quickly even if she is just jump-pumping a SCM/SFM. I'm not sure if the Celestial Colonnade is correct though - I like having the option there, but it rarely ever gets used, essentially just making it a UW dual that comes into play tapped.

Another odd choice is Riptide Laboratory. Most lists seem to have cut him, but, as my games tend to go quite long, rebuying a SCM can be huge. It also allows you to block, for instance, a Tarmogoyf and then rebuy SCM, saving you some life points. The fact that it doubles as a (albeit, bad) second Karakas for Clique shenanigans is something to consider also. Overall, I've been pleased with the Lab.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I am relatively new to legacy (~1 year experience), so I'm very interested to hear other's chime in on the U/W vs Esper debate.

[Arsenal]

That SCG Open Atlanta list seems to really be pushing for Eot Clique, then drop Jace safely. Whereas Esper crutches on Lingering Souls to protect Jace, that UW list seems to be crutching on Clique to ensure Jace's survival/resolution. But yes, a stronger manabase and better FoW (may be good in this meta as combo is seeing a tad more play? idk) are attractive reasons to go straight UW. UW is much more reactionary than Esper is, which has it's ups and downs, but I think it has merit.

Esper giving you access to discard, Souls, and sideboard cards is pretty attractive. The manabase can be wonky sometimes, but is able to operate off it's 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp basic set quite well for the majority of the early-midgame if you're afraid of Wasteland/Blood Moon. I think each build has it's pros/cons, with Esper edging out UW simply due to black giving you access to really powerful cards that UW just doesn't have an equivalent to.

[DragoFireheart]

That SCG Open Atlanta list seems to really be pushing for Eot Clique, then drop Jace safely. Whereas Esper crutches on Lingering Souls to protect Jace, that UW list seems to be crutching on Clique to ensure Jace's survival/resolution. But yes, a stronger manabase and better FoW (may be good in this meta as combo is seeing a tad more play? idk) are attractive reasons to go straight UW. UW is much more reactionary than Esper is, which has it's ups and downs, but I think it has merit.

Esper giving you access to discard, Souls, and sideboard cards is pretty attractive. The manabase can be wonky sometimes, but is able to operate off it's 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp basic set quite well for the majority of the early-midgame if you're afraid of Wasteland/Blood Moon. I think each build has it's pros/cons, with Esper edging out UW simply due to black giving you access to really powerful cards that UW just doesn't have an equivalent to.

I dunno, I've never been a fan of three colors in controllish decks. I really don't like opening myself up to Wasteland.

[Arsenal]

I dunno, I've never been a fan of three colors in controllish decks. I really don't like opening myself up to Wasteland.

I dislike getting Wastelanded out of games too, but that's the risk you run if you want access to discard, Lingering Souls, Vindicate, EE for 3, and great sideboard options. Of those, discard is the only thing you'd need to fetch a non-basic early for (and if you really want, you can just fetch Swamp turn 1). I'd say the reward outweighs the risk.

[AEnesidem]

The games you get wastelanded out of the games exist but are rare (to my experience). Mulliganing correctly and managing your manabase correctly go a long way and can save you from a lot of losses to wasteland. In return you get a control deck that is far more flexible and attacks your opponent on more domains. IMO, black solves the problems UW stoneblade had. But that doesn't mean UW isn't a good deck and maybe it is a right meta call sometimes. I just think that Esperblade is inherently more powerful at beating fair decks due to its flexibility and lingering souls.

I notice that this is a recurring topic here UW vs UWB. I still think UW has a huge flaw which is that they are short on bodies to carry the equipment. Additionally they have a harder time protecting jace and can't switch to a proactive plan like esperblade can.

[jin]

Yeah that works great in magical christms land. In reality, you have to draw the card, not get it Thoughtseized, Hymned, or Liliana'd, have the mana to cast it, then get to use it. How many are you boarding? This might be a realistic plan if you have 4 but in the real world where we don't have all the sideboard space we could ever want it's just not going to happen on any sort of consistent basis.

tl;dr My point stands that just saying "play Crucible" is incredibly short-sighted.

Brainstorm can be used to protect it from hand disruption. Counter spells can stop hand disruption. The idea is Crucibles is an out, but you also need to play smart. You are looking for a catch all to Sinkhole, and there is no one answer. If you ignore cards of this caliber just because you don't know how to play it, then you won't find your answer anywhere.

I play Enlightened Tutor in my SB, so I don't have to play too many Crucibles. Also, I'll be able to find half a turn earlier if I need it. It's also great in the blue mirror.

[Tigro215]

Ive played both UW and Esper and they both certainly have the strengths and weakness you all list. I also tried a crucible in the side a long time ago in the UW list (played factories and wastelands) and in general felt that it helped and hindered the goal of the deck. It was great because I could waste people and use daze (when it was good) but at the same time felt that i would have rather it been something more proactive. I know a control deck thrives on being reactive but I really think if the crucible had been another jace/counterspell/creature it would have served me better. That being said, I think crucible in UWB doesnt belong because you are already trying to do so much. In fact, I would rather splash a tropical island instead of a tundra and play a one of loam in either the main or side if the fear of wasteland or sinkhole is too much. Just my opinion.

[Malakai]

I have adopted a similar plan to the decks in that Drew Levin article from 2011, i.e. 4 Snapcaster, 2 Spellstutter, 2 Wasteland, 2 Mutavault, and the full 4 Path to Exile in the board (in UW), and have been incredibly happy with it. The difficult matchups (RUG, Dredge, Liliana.dec, Death and Taxes) now feel a LOT better.

[Arsenal]

I have adopted a similar plan to the decks in that Drew Levin article from 2011, i.e. 4 Snapcaster, 2 Spellstutter, 2 Wasteland, 2 Mutavault, and the full 4 Path to Exile in the board (in UW), and have been incredibly happy with it. The difficult matchups (RUG, Dredge, Liliana.dec, Death and Taxes) now feel a LOT better.

Postboard, you have access to 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Path to Exile? Also, is the Spellstutter + Mutavault interaction too cute/slow to get online? Looking at that 6th place SCG Atlanta list, I like how he forgoes Spellstutter completely and overloads on Clique, allowing him more "eot Clique -> grab your best card/get Clique countered, then mainphase resolve my Jace" plays.

[AEnesidem]

There's one thing i don't understand. Since when is liliana a problem for this deck? and in particular the esper version? Lingering souls, snapcaster mage and vendilion clique all eat liliana for breakfast and her discard isn't as devastating against us since the powerlevel of our individual cards gives us pretty good topdecks. The only deck that runs liliana and i have had problems with is shardless BUG and punishing jund. And if those decks ar hard it's not because of liliana but because of punishing fire and ancestral vision.

[TheArchitect]

I'm assembling the pieces for esper stoneblade and I am wondering about geist of saint traft. Some lists have him, some don't. What matchups do you want him for?

[Atog]

I'm assembling the pieces for esper stoneblade and I am wondering about geist of saint traft. Some lists have him, some don't. What matchups do you want him for?

It's mainly for combo matchups. It's a fast clock and that + counter backup is enought for most games. You can side it in against miracles also and mirror, just watchout for opponents "ambush vipers".

[kirdie]

I boarded him in against combo (to be specific: Storm) and everyone told me that that's a really bad idea and I agree with them after testing. You just never want to tap out on turn 3 because then they just kill you (I guess show and tell is the same). With Stoneforge Mystic you can play him on turn 3 with spell pierce mana open and on turn 4 end of turn bring batterskull into play if you don't have to counter something, the clock is about the same (6 dmg from geist vs 5 dmg and 4 life with mystic + batterskull). However I play UW so maybe with discard it's different?

I think Geist is only good for control mirrors (Stone Blade, Miracle) and some decks that don't play creatures but don't kill you early, I really like it vs Pox for example.

[TheArchitect]

Thanks that makes sense. I could see him being really good in a meta dense with other stoneblade decks, miracles or creature-light decks like BUG still.

I see the argument of bringing him for combo; increasing the clock and just out tempoing them. But I think Id rather just have SFM>Batterskull. It's 1 mana less so you keep mana open if needed and against TES it completely negates the empty plan which they often have to turn to when they are put under pressure.

[AEnesidem]

I boarded him in against combo (to be specific: Storm) and everyone told me that that's a really bad idea and I agree with them after testing. You just never want to tap out on turn 3 because then they just kill you (I guess show and tell is the same). With Stoneforge Mystic you can play him on turn 3 with spell pierce mana open and on turn 4 end of turn bring batterskull into play if you don't have to counter something, the clock is about the same (6 dmg from geist vs 5 dmg and 4 life with mystic + batterskull). However I play UW so maybe with discard it's different?

I think Geist is only good for control mirrors (Stone Blade, Miracle) and some decks that don't play creatures but don't kill you early, I really like it vs Pox for example.

Ofcourse it's different with the black splash, it's the discard that allows you to tap out on turn 3. The problem is, stoneforge alone isn't enough. We need more opportunities to create a clock against combo because otherwise they just outdraw us and we meet their inevitability. If geist was purely against combo, extra vendilion cliques would be a much better option.
I guess most people don't really know what geist's purpose is in our sideboards, and i didn't know it either. Geist is NOT exclusively against miracles and other control mirrors. It also comes in against shardless BUG and Jund. Why? because it has hexproof and you want to end the game quickly against those decks because they'll eventually end up outgrinding you with cards as punishing fire or ancestral visions.

It comes in against any deck where stoneblade wants to play prooactively. Oddly enough against decks like shardless BUG and jund you want to be proactive. Their discard forces you to outclass their board presence to win and their card advantage engines force you to close the game in time. Geist is ideal for this as it's a threat they can't deal with (except with liliana), gives you an exceptional clock and is a perfect carrier for equipment. Besides, geist kill splaneswalkers like a boss.

I see this is a recurring question. Geist really is the most versatile card in our sideboard. I've tried to ply without them some time but geist is a game winning card and can carry some wins on its own. He's our offensive mode button.

[ThediscoPower]

I boarded him in against combo (to be specific: Storm) and everyone told me that that's a really bad idea and I agree with them after testing. You just never want to tap out on turn 3 because then they just kill you (I guess show and tell is the same). With Stoneforge Mystic you can play him on turn 3 with spell pierce mana open and on turn 4 end of turn bring batterskull into play if you don't have to counter something, the clock is about the same (6 dmg from geist vs 5 dmg and 4 life with mystic + batterskull). However I play UW so maybe with discard it's different?


Then again, why do people keep comparing apples to oranges? Because esperblade and straight u/w blade are decks that look the same, but actually play in different ways. In the u/w version, of course you never want to be tapped out during their turn, as your whole deck is based on responding in a reactive way. Each time you are tapped out during their turn, you effectively are turning most of your options down, and inviting them to just kill you. However, Esperblade relies on proactive discard, rather then active counters. As such, this allows you to tap out during their turn, because your disruption is done during your turn, and not during their turn. You make sure they can't kill you on turn 3, then play the geist, and then kill them quickly, before they can do anything to you. As such, this is why you can play him in esper against combo, and not in u/w

[Malakai]

The general feeling I get from this forum is that I'm the only one who actually gets to play against good opponents.

A storm player who can't beat a discard spell or two might as well not show up to the tournament. Non-blue, black decks have known this for years. Your disruption strategy loses to brainstorm.

Liliana may not be scary for esper, but I don't feel this is a strong enough case to play the deck when a well constructed UWr list is better against the rest of the field.

Geist isn't going to save you against punishing fire, but wasteland will.

Ask yourself if you would rather have sword of feast and famine or Geist against combo.

[Serbitar]

Geist is there not for the combo but for the control matchups. It is great vs. Miracles and is one of the better answers to opposing Geists in the mirror. (If people were not running Geist in Stoneblade boards, I would probably not bother with it myself.)
Of course, once you have them in the board, you will bring them in vs. Combo too (usually in exchange for Souls), but that's not why they are there. As someone already mentioned, there are other decks where you will board them – at the GP I won a game vs. Burn due to Geist giving him fewer topdecks.

[Malakai]

Brainstorm can be used to protect it from hand disruption. Counter spells can stop hand disruption. The idea is Crucibles is an out, but you also need to play smart. You are looking for a catch all to Sinkhole, and there is no one answer. If you ignore cards of this caliber just because you don't know how to play it, then you won't find your answer anywhere.

I play Enlightened Tutor in my SB, so I don't have to play too many Crucibles. Also, I'll be able to find half a turn earlier if I need it. It's also great in the blue mirror.

I am aware of the text on brainstorm. I am also aware that you don't always have one in hand, especially against decks with hymn.

You are the one suggesting single card answers, which is not surprising considering you play e tutor. Your reliance on silver bullets is symptomatic of your poor conceptualization of the game. You think that games are played with cards, but in reality they are played with decks.

I have since solved the land destruction problem without weakening the integrity of my deck simply by making several small changes that have an effect greater than the sum of their parts.

[lordofthepit]

The general feeling I get from this forum is that I'm the only one who actually gets to play against good opponents.

A storm player who can't beat a discard spell or two might as well not show up to the tournament. Non-blue, black decks have known this for years. Your disruption strategy loses to brainstorm.

Liliana may not be scary for esper, but I don't feel this is a strong enough case to play the deck when a well constructed UWr list is better against the rest of the field.

Geist isn't going to save you against punishing fire, but wasteland will.

Ask yourself if you would rather have sword of feast and famine or Geist against combo.


I am aware of the text on brainstorm. I am also aware that you don't always have one in hand, especially against decks with hymn.

You are the one suggesting single card answers, which is not surprising considering you play e tutor. Your reliance on silver bullets is symptomatic of your poor conceptualization of the game. You think that games are played with cards, but in reality they are played with decks.

I have since solved the land destruction problem without weakening the integrity of my deck simply by making several small changes that have an effect greater than the sum of their parts.

Do you think you can try to be more condescending? For science?

[bruizar]

Shizo, Death's Storehouse is a nice 1-off for esper lists that run Geist of Saint Traft. Just thought I'd mention that here.

[AEnesidem]

The general feeling I get from this forum is that I'm the only one who actually gets to play against good opponents.

A storm player who can't beat a discard spell or two might as well not show up to the tournament. Non-blue, black decks have known this for years. Your disruption strategy loses to brainstorm.

Liliana may not be scary for esper, but I don't feel this is a strong enough case to play the deck when a well constructed UWr list is better against the rest of the field.

Geist isn't going to save you against punishing fire, but wasteland will.

Ask yourself if you would rather have sword of feast and famine or Geist against combo.

The general feeling i get from you is that you think you know everything. Your tone is very condescending and unpleasant.

-Sure storm draws themselves out of discard but we just use it to win a turn. You take a crucial card and you'll have a big cance to drop geist on turn 3. And if they cast brainstorm in response, well then you don't cast geist on turn 3 ofcourse. Sometimes they'll topdeck well or brainstorm into the win but that's combo, when they draw well you can't win anyway. And against ANT, if you can't beat em fast enough they'll inevitably kill you and draw out of your whole disruption.
-UWr, better against the field? That's yet to be proven. Post some results and then we'll talk. You can't just pretend uwr is better against the field without an argument to back it up.
-Geist doesn't? to my knowledge it does, without weakening my manabase. They can't hit your geist, if you use your removal to let geist connect, the game is ended rapidly. without geist you often have no decent way of ending the game in time. You can only play 2 wasteland, beyond that your manabase becomes horrid.
-I have both, Sword of feast and famine alone isn't enough. Having just 4 stoneforge mystics against combo isn't enough by far. To beat some combo decks like ant you want to consistently open hands with a clock and disruption. Having 3 extra ways to create a clock makes this a lot easier.

I'm not saying geist is an uber powerful card that everyone should play. I'm just saying that geist is much more effective and versatile than people give it credit for. And he's a good card to have in the sideboard.

[Mackan]

I understand the reasoning behind geist in the sense that you want to disrupt your opponent and finish the game in that bought window of time. I just rather continue to draw good spells and win eventually rather than cross my fingers I draw the good half of my deck in 2/3 games. I have NEVER lost in the mirror when my opponent resolved swords to plowshares or geist of lava axe postboard. The funny thing is, nobody realizes this as people contiune to cripple themselves in the espermirror with cards like supreme verdict, swords to plowshares and geist of saint traft. Even fow and discard are kind of bad.

and vs combo...what would you rather play, meddling mage or geist of saint traft?

[rancOr_]

I play with 2 vendilion md in esper and as I dont play geist sb, I have 4snap 4stoneforge 2 v clique to deal with combo with additional discard/flusterstorm SB.(3pierce MD).
I never had any problems beating combo obviously,but that doesn't mean Geist is bad. If you're running Geist sb and 1or 0 cliques MD obviously u would board in Geist instead of dead cards.
Dont see where this discussion is going.. Everyone knows clique is better vs. combo then geist,but if you're running geist its totally reasonable to board them in,just depends on ur build.
My point of view is that I dont need Geist at all in the other grindy MU's and thus have way more tools against combo..

[ThediscoPower]

The general feeling I get from this forum is that I'm the only one who actually gets to play against good opponents.


Then again, you're the only one on this forum that I actually stopped caring about for a while. Probably not gonna help anyone anyways with what you say. Until now, I am yet to be disapointed by my choice!!!

I think the best part is when you actually try to have advices, but can't even tell us what you play, lol.



I understand the reasoning behind geist in the sense that you want to disrupt your opponent and finish the game in that bought window of time. I just rather continue to draw good spells and win eventually rather than cross my fingers I draw the good half of my deck in 2/3 games. I have NEVER lost in the mirror when my opponent resolved swords to plowshares or geist of lava axe postboard. The funny thing is, nobody realizes this as people contiune to cripple themselves in the espermirror with cards like supreme verdict, swords to plowshares and geist of saint traft. Even fow and discard are kind of bad.

and vs combo...what would you rather play, meddling mage or geist of saint traft?



Define good spells against combo game 2-3. We have what? 10 dead cards against combo (I asume you will keep some creature removal, in case bob or swarm makes an apparition)? I have what? 10 cards that are actually good against combo (storm) in the side? Then , the question is more like " do i really want to beat him down with a batterskull ?", question to which I actually say no. Too slow, is the conclusion I ended up having about that card in that matchup. Enters Geist, who casually happens to have 2 slots in my sideboard. The way I see it, I am changing a clock for another one, and this is what i think people don't realise. He is NOT taking the place of my actual combo hate, He takes the place of my actual clock, because I think I prefer having him instead of having a batterskull when I will have to beat down the guy fast, and use stoneforge as a way to find that sword of feast and famine every time. I could be doing it wrong, but I do really have batterskull in general as my clock of choice in those matchups.

Now what would I prefer between geist or meddling mage you asked? How about both? My whole 3 copies of meddling mage AND my 2 copies of geist. Because I believe the real question is : what would you rather play against combo, batterskull or geist of saint traft?

Then, in the mirror, keeping FoW and verdict in a control mirror seems loose, no matter how you sell it, and I don't know why people would actually do it. Discard being bad is also wrong i believe, especially if you know how to time them. I believe that geist shoud be seen as a hard to deal with win condition in the mirror. Not a card to actually lean on (read, not a card to go allin on).

[Mackan]

Then again, you're the only one on this forum that I actually stopped caring about for a while. Probably not gonna help anyone anyways with what you say. Until now, I am yet to be disapointed by my choice!!!

I think the best part is when you actually try to have advices, but can't even tell us what you play, lol.




Define good spells against combo game 2-3. We have what? 10 dead cards against combo (I asume you will keep some creature removal, in case bob or swarm makes an apparition)? I have what? 10 cards that are actually good against combo (storm) in the side? Then , the question is more like " do i really want to beat him down with a batterskull ?", question to which I actually say no. Too slow, is the conclusion I ended up having about that card in that matchup. Enters Geist, who casually happens to have 2 slots in my sideboard. The way I see it, I am changing a clock for another one, and this is what i think people don't realise. He is NOT taking the place of my actual combo hate, He takes the place of my actual clock, because I think I prefer having him instead of having a batterskull when I will have to beat down the guy fast, and use stoneforge as a way to find that sword of feast and famine every time. I could be doing it wrong, but I do really have batterskull in general as my clock of choice in those matchups.

Now what would I prefer between geist or meddling mage you asked? How about both? My whole 3 copies of meddling mage AND my 2 copies of geist. Because I believe the real question is : what would you rather play against combo, batterskull or geist of saint traft?

Then, in the mirror, keeping FoW and verdict in a control mirror seems loose, no matter how you sell it, and I don't know why people would actually do it. Discard being bad is also wrong i believe, especially if you know how to time them. I believe that geist shoud be seen as a hard to deal with win condition in the mirror. Not a card to actually lean on (read, not a card to go allin on).


Even if geist IS better than stoneforge (he isn't because he costs 3) I would not waste sideboard space for a minor upgrade of my clock in a few matchups.

Also Batterskull is good because;
1) combo often have discard for SOFF (squiring mystics)
2) Batterskull nullifies many of the ETW-openers from storm and forces higher stormcounts.
3) Compared to geist you can sequence t3 sfm with pierce up and then put it down EOT t4 (where you actually live). a total of 4 mana, but only 2 where it counts. I think good comboplayers appreciate you tapout turn3.
If you clock your opponent (even when life doesn't matter) with batterskull it's only one turn slower than geist.
geist: t4, 6, t5, 6 t6, 6 = 18
sfm: t4, 5, t5 5, t6, 5, t7, 5 = 20
This is assuming your opponent pains himself for 2 damage or if you find another way to deal 2 more, otherwise it's the same clock!
The one way I would glady use him is as FoW-fodder.
Plus, geist beeing a "plan" requires a few copies... where each extra copy drawn is horrible.

[AEnesidem]

You shouldn't replace stoneforge with geist. Geist coms in in addion to stoneforge to have more chance to draw a clock. We have enough dead cards to board out against combo. If geist would be anything else i would either have cards for other matchups which would leave some dead cards in against combo. Or i would add more counters and discard which i already have largely enough of. Sure, you can board in 4+ counters and discard against combo and try to choke them out, buthaving a clock is far more effective. Once geist drops or SFM+sofaf they know they have to speed it up and eventually you force them to take risks. That's where you catch them with counters.
A friend of mine is quite a good ANT player. I playtest against him very often. If we don't have a clock on the table they laugh at our disruption. They just outdraw our discard and pick away counters one by one. Geist isn't the best option against combo as i said earlier, because clique would be much better. But geist shines in all the other matchups where clique sucks. In some games you need to pressure your opponent and geist does that just fine.

[Arsenal]

Every combo player I've spoken to agrees with Esperblade's Geist plan postboard. I always go -3 Lingering Souls, +3 Geist postboard versus combo. I then start boarding out -1 Supreme Verdict, -1 Vindicate, -2 StP for +1 Force of Will, +1 IoK, +2 Spell Pierce. Not sure why people are sticking their nose up at Geist versus combo, but are 100% onboard with Souls versus combo...

EDIT: My tourney report is up http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25915-14th-at-Mox-Mania-1k-Legacy-(Madison-WI)-with-Esperblade&p=719988&viewfull=1#post719988 if you're interested in reading. Specifically, my Esperblade opponent boarding in Geist versus me and it completely wrecked me. This is two straight weeks for me where Geist was the determining factor in winning/losing games in the mirror match; I think people are underestimating how devastating Geist is in the mirror.

EDIT2: Not a single Blade Control deck in the Top 32 at SCG Open Seattle. Thoughts? Just an outlier or a telling sign that Esperblade may be getting pushed out of Tier 1 as the "fair deck of choice"?

[ThediscoPower]

Even if geist IS better than stoneforge (he isn't because he costs 3) I would not waste sideboard space for a minor upgrade of my clock in a few matchups.

Also Batterskull is good because;
1) combo often have discard for SOFF (squiring mystics)
2) Batterskull nullifies many of the ETW-openers from storm and forces higher stormcounts.
3) Compared to geist you can sequence t3 sfm with pierce up and then put it down EOT t4 (where you actually live). a total of 4 mana, but only 2 where it counts. I think good comboplayers appreciate you tapout turn3.
If you clock your opponent (even when life doesn't matter) with batterskull it's only one turn slower than geist.
geist: t4, 6, t5, 6 t6, 6 = 18
sfm: t4, 5, t5 5, t6, 5, t7, 5 = 20
This is assuming your opponent pains himself for 2 damage or if you find another way to deal 2 more, otherwise it's the same clock!
The one way I would glady use him is as FoW-fodder.
Plus, geist beeing a "plan" requires a few copies... where each extra copy drawn is horrible.

Except, I prefer finding SoFaF with my stoneforges. Like, every time. And then, I prefer having my clock actually being imune to any kind of interaction the other player might have (burning wish for bounce spell on the germ token NOT uncommon, and a mojor loss of time). Also, good storm players don't care about you taping out, they care about when they will be in a do or die situation, and how much disruption you have in your hands. If they are making you discard your sword, then to me, it signals that their hand is actually horrible, and that you have time to devellop yourself. If you have only one way of interacting with them, you will die anyways, no matter if you are tapped out or not on turn 3. As simple as it gets. it is what I call a calculate risk, where if you can use your discard spells early on, you can tap out with a high probability that you will untap with a clock on the table. Otherwise, you are representing FoW, and they will decide if they actually believe you or not. If they are going off with duress backup, it won't even matter. they will take the piece of the force, whatever you can cast. last thing, geist requiring a few copies to work argument can be applied to everything with a legend rule clause on it. Including your 3 postboard cliques that you happen to play. In other words, contradicting philosophies, I believe, as I do think you bring them all in for the storm matchup.

Now, I don't know, but as a storm player miself (played storm religiously before swtiching to stoneforge variants), I am way more afraid of a geist that stoneforge and a batterskull hitting me in the face. Well, not that a batterskull WON'T scare me sometimes, but at least I can make you lose time by bouncing the germ token, or I have ways to interact with it somewhere in my sideboard via burning wish. I have outs, if my hand doesn't win now. Geist just hits me in the face, and every hit makes my last resort ad nauseum worse than batterskull will make it. You are gaining some life? cool, it's actually 2 more storm I need each time you hit me, which isn't THAT much more, since the incusion of past in flames.

Now, be free to say what you want, but I do think it is a mistake to place geist as FoW fodder before even trying it.

[Arsenal]

Why are people acting like this deck only has 2-3 cards to board out versus combo? We have TONS of dead cards versus them that can come out. Lingering Souls, Supreme Verdict, and Vindicate are 100% dead versus virtually every form of combo, so that's 5 cards right there. If you want to board out 1-4 StP, then that's 6-9 cards freed up. Are people actually crying over 6-9 free slots to use to wreck combo? WTF?

[DragoFireheart]

Why are people acting like this deck only has 2-3 cards to board out versus combo? We have TONS of dead cards versus them that can come out. Lingering Souls, Supreme Verdict, and Vindicate are 100% dead versus virtually every form of combo, so that's 5 cards right there. If you want to board out 1-4 StP, then that's 6-9 cards freed up. Are people actually crying over 6-9 free slots to use to wreck combo? WTF?

But I need my WoGs and StPs to kill their Goblin tokens!

Also, Stp heals me if I hit my creatures to save me from Tendrils!

[xfxf]

StP isn't enough to pull the game back against lethal Warrens and Verdict is sually too late. Your best bet is boarding in the second EE. I usually beat storm pre Warrens though, coming back from 18 goblins is just shits and giggles.

[AEnesidem]

I'm considering dropping th emaindeck clique for a 4th snapcaster. Snapcaster feels like a fish in the water in this deck. It's one of our best cards and i'd prefer to draw snapcaster mage over clique in 99% of the situations. I usually was a huge fan of clique, but i find it very underwhelming in esper stoneblade and i think a 4th snapcaster would be better in almost any situation.

opinions?

[xfxf]

Agree with you completely but I'm also considering putting it in the side along with a second copy. Usually against slow combo I find myself having plenty of disruption with no clock and Geist isn't the answer here. An end of turn Clique spoils plans.

[Arsenal]

StP isn't enough to pull the game back against lethal Warrens and Verdict is sually too late. Your best bet is boarding in the second EE. I usually beat storm pre Warrens though, coming back from 18 goblins is just shits and giggles.

I think he was being sarcastic.

EDIT: Re: 4th Snapcaster over the 1-of Clique, I didn't like it in my testing. I always found myself a tad light on flashback targets to justify the 4th Snapcaster in Esperblade (assuming Vidi's stock list). I also like that Clique is an actual clock when our SFM -> Equipment plan fails.

[xfxf]

I recently heard this discussion in real life so don't mind if he was being sarcastic.

Edit: Just noticed who made that post as I'm downing my 4th pint. You are a kind soul to call it sarcastic, in other parts of the world we call it Thrunning.

[ThediscoPower]

I'm considering dropping th emaindeck clique for a 4th snapcaster. Snapcaster feels like a fish in the water in this deck. It's one of our best cards and i'd prefer to draw snapcaster mage over clique in 99% of the situations. I usually was a huge fan of clique, but i find it very underwhelming in esper stoneblade and i think a 4th snapcaster would be better in almost any situation.

opinions?

I don't think it should be dropped, but then again, I do find myself always happy to draw a snapcaster, so the 4th could be good. What I did drop are my 2 sideboard copies of clique, that I did find underwhelming. I think it has been a few games where I found them crowding my hand. ended up resleeving my trusty ol' meddling mages instead.

And for your goblin problems, there is always zealous persecusion!!

[AEnesidem]

I don't think it should be dropped, but then again, I do find myself always happy to draw a snapcaster, so the 4th could be good. What I did drop are my 2 sideboard copies of clique, that I did find underwhelming. I think it has been a few games where I found them crowding my hand. ended up resleeving my trusty ol' meddling mages instead.

And for your goblin problems, there is always zealous persecusion!!

Weird conclusion. I find clique to have a lot of value as a sideboard card against combo but not so much maindeck because its' mediocre against th emajority of the field

[Serbitar]

I was on 4 Mystic, 4 Snap, 0 Clique. For the GP I switched to 4-3-1 and was very happy with that. Snapcaster Mages tend to be very clunky in multiples against all halfway tempo oriented decks. Also, the prevalence of Deathrite Shaman weakens our Snapcasters.

[Arsenal]

I was on 4 Mystic, 4 Snap, 0 Clique. For the GP I switched to 4-3-1 and was very happy with that. Snapcaster Mages tend to be very clunky in multiples against all halfway tempo oriented decks. Also, the prevalence of Deathrite Shaman weakens our Snapcasters.

This. I found 4 Snapcasters to be too many as I often didn't have a relevant target for him. 3 felt right to me.

[rancOr_]

I have always played 4snapcaster in Stoneforge, both UWx and Esper. I dont ever see myself playing only 3, the card is too good in this deck. It really is...

[DragoFireheart]

I recently heard this discussion in real life so don't mind if he was being sarcastic.


I feel bad for that person if that is their strategy for fighting Storm decks.


This. I found 4 Snapcasters to be too many as I often didn't have a relevant target for him. 3 felt right to me.

Agreed. 4 seemed like too many. 3 is the correct amount.

[Malakai]

Just weigh snapcaster against the number of three-drops you have and you'll find the right number.

Deathrite Shaman makes snappy worse, but if you're bringing in more removal he jumps back up to good again because you always have a way to kill Deathrite.

[thra1l]

I played 4-4 Snap/Stoneforge until combo was really prevalent and I switched a Snap for a Clique. Both are fine in my opinion. When I Top 8'd SCG Cinci in February I was on 4 Snaps and never really had a problem.

[lost_ronin_soul]

I been working on a blue white red version for a while now. It runs pretty decent

Lands:
1 Academy Ruins (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Academy Ruins)
2 Arid Mesa (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Arid%20Mesa)
4 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded%20Strand)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20Tarn)
1 Plateau (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plateau)
2 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)
2 Volcanic Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volcanic%20Island)
3 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
1 Mountain (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mountain)
1 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)

Creatures:
2 Geist of Saint Traft (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Geist of Saint Traft)
3 Snapcaster Mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster Mage)
3 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge Mystic)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion Clique)

Instants:
4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
1 Counterspell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 Lightning Bolt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning%20Bolt)
3 Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce)
3 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)(Sideboard one as of 4/18/13)
1 Izzetet Charm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Izzet%20Charm)(updated 4/18/13)

Artifact:
1 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa's%20Jitte)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sensei's%20Divining%20Top)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Engineered%20Explosives)

Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)


Sideboard: (changes as of 4/18/13)
2 Detention Sphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Detention%20Sphere)
2 Flusterstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flusterstorm)
2 Mindbreak Trap (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap) (I face storm in almost every event and fluster storm, spell pierce and ,fow dont seem to be enough)
1 Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Engineered%20Explosives)
3 Red Elemental Blast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Red%20Elemental%20Blast)
2 Rest In Peace (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20In%20Peace)
1 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)
1 Supreme Verdict (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Supreme%20Verdict)


this is my forum page which I been tinkering on the deck and posting my results in tournaments for American blade (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25569-American-Blade-(legacy-U-W-R-control)/page3)

This deck turns Geist into a powerhouse since its harder to get chump blocked (kill spells and stoneforge protection )
It also runs 21 lands but the mana base doesnt seem to cuz any problems regularly with top and brainstorm.

[mike1987]

Do you guys think running 22 lands in this pseudo control deck is a tad too little? Of course, a timely cantrip can most certainly save oneself from being land screwed but there are a few times i just didnt draw enough lands.

[kirdie]

I feel like the deck never has enough mana, yesterday I had 7 lands in play and it was still not enough for all the batterskull back to hand, play again, equip jitte, use academy ruins and top stuff I could have been doing. With UW, 23 lands and 3 Ponders I feel it is barely enough.

[learntolove6]

i think 22 is okay with 1-2 ponders and 4 brainstorms.

i;ve recently been very frustrated with my draws playing vidi's list, so i decided to cut either 1 vindicate or 1 EE for another ponder. i didn't know which was right and was wracking my brain over other spells to cut, because i was sure i wanted a second ponder, but i think im just going to cut the 1 ponder from vidi's list and run 1 top to smooth my draws. it's almost never a bad thing to have a top in any match up, so i think this is right. all the spells in this deck are so good!

also, i've been readjusting my sideboard to fit geist in (playing the mirror match taught me a lot about geist's power). i don't know how to fit him in though, can anyone post their sideboards so i can learn a thing or two?

[rancOr_]

i think 22 is okay with 1-2 ponders and 4 brainstorms.

i;ve recently been very frustrated with my draws playing vidi's list, so i decided to cut either 1 vindicate or 1 EE for another ponder. i didn't know which was right and was wracking my brain over other spells to cut, because i was sure i wanted a second ponder, but i think im just going to cut the 1 ponder from vidi's list and run 1 top to smooth my draws. it's almost never a bad thing to have a top in any match up, so i think this is right. all the spells in this deck are so good!

also, i've been readjusting my sideboard to fit geist in (playing the mirror match taught me a lot about geist's power). i don't know how to fit him in though, can anyone post their sideboards so i can learn a thing or two?

I play UWB without all the cute cards making my draws way more consistent, which has had good results. I don't play EE/verdict/vindicate/academy ruins. But run with 2ponder 2clique 4snap 3pierce with a solid mana base w 22lands. I like this alot more then all the other esper versions that are being copyed all around the world. (so also 21 blue spells instead of 19)I never needed more MD removal then just the 4stp/4snap, as u also have Jace/Jitte/Souls etx. I do run additional removal in the SB: 2perish.1verdict.1path.1darkblast. Snapcaster obviously plays a big role in this deck, so I got 2Perish to complement against Jund/deathrite which has always been awesome.

[zerzab11]

@learntolove: This is the board I'm currently rocking:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I play 4 Force main, the Canonist is there to make Combo (big factor of the current field) better (which is quite favorable postboard imo)

On another hand I think this deck lost some of his power in the format due to the bad Shardless BUG MU, which is relatively heavy played over here. Anyone who faces this as well?

[Arsenal]

Punishing Jund and Shardless BUG have made Esperblade a less attractive deck to pilot. Both decks are very tough matchups for us, imo. I've gotten lucky here and there mostly due to a timely Perish, but overall, I do not like these matchups over a 9 round tourney.

[jarvisyu]

Using a cantrip to find a land is pretty awful.

Having a 23rd land means you don't need to blow Brainstorm as early, and also means you can get to lategame Batterskull shenanigans much more easily.

[Arsenal]

Using a cantrip to find a land is pretty awful.

Having a 23rd land means you don't need to blow Brainstorm as early, and also means you can get to lategame Batterskull shenanigans much more easily.

22 land has always felt bleeding edge for this deck. I think 23 land is where we should be, but I'm having a tough time finding something to cut. The most likely choice would be Supreme Verdict (move it to the sideboard), but I don't know...

[ThediscoPower]

i think 22 is okay with 1-2 ponders and 4 brainstorms.

i;ve recently been very frustrated with my draws playing vidi's list, so i decided to cut either 1 vindicate or 1 EE for another ponder. i didn't know which was right and was wracking my brain over other spells to cut, because i was sure i wanted a second ponder, but i think im just going to cut the 1 ponder from vidi's list and run 1 top to smooth my draws. it's almost never a bad thing to have a top in any match up, so i think this is right. all the spells in this deck are so good!

also, i've been readjusting my sideboard to fit geist in (playing the mirror match taught me a lot about geist's power). i don't know how to fit him in though, can anyone post their sideboards so i can learn a thing or two?

My current sideboard :

2 surgical extraction
1 darkblast
2 geist of saint traft
2 meddling mage
1 cabal therapy
1 force of will
1 perish
1 zealous persection
1 batterskull
1 relic of progenitus
1 sword of feast and famine
1 desenchant

3 force main, 5 discard main along with 2 pierce main.

@rancor_

That kind of list does seem very interesting. I think I want to try out something like that. So straight cut the 1 ofs (-1 discard, - 1 explosive, -1 vindicate, -1 verdict, -1 ruins) for +1 pierce, +1 snap +1 ponder + 1 clique +1 basic? Does that seem like what you did?

[learntolove6]

@learntolove: This is the board I'm currently rocking:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I play 4 Force main, the Canonist is there to make Combo (big factor of the current field) better (which is quite favorable postboard imo)

On another hand I think this deck lost some of his power in the format due to the bad Shardless BUG MU, which is relatively heavy played over here. Anyone who faces this as well?

so would you recommend 2 geists? I was thinking 3, but that might actually be unnecessary.

i might be wrong about this but i don't think the shardless match up is that bad. they're a little favored, but the CA they generate in ancestral vision is near matched by the CA we get in lingering souls and stoneforge. most of their threats are just dudes, all we have to do is kill them and ive never seriously had an issue with goyf as a threat. i maybe be wrong, however. gerry t's results against shaheen in the finals of the invitational is evidence against what i am saying, but this is just one piece of data to add to the pool.

[learntolove6]

My current sideboard :

2 surgical extraction
1 darkblast
2 geist of saint traft
2 meddling mage
1 cabal therapy
1 force of will
1 perish
1 zealous persection
1 batterskull
1 relic of progenitus
1 sword of feast and famine
1 desenchant

3 force main, 5 discard main along with 2 pierce main.

@rancor_

That kind of list does seem very interesting. I think I want to try out something like that. So straight cut the 1 ofs (-1 discard, - 1 explosive, -1 vindicate, -1 verdict, -1 ruins) for +1 pierce, +1 snap +1 ponder + 1 clique +1 basic? Does that seem like what you did?

how dio you like the meddling mage/batterskull? i have wanted to try those cards i nthe sb for a while but i have not had the chance.

[Arsenal]

so would you recommend 2 geists? I was thinking 3, but that might actually be unnecessary.

i might be wrong about this but i don't think the shardless match up is that bad. they're a little favored, but the CA they generate in ancestral vision is near matched by the CA we get in lingering souls and stoneforge. most of their threats are just dudes, all we have to do is kill them and ive never seriously had an issue with goyf as a threat. i maybe be wrong, however. gerry t's results against shaheen in the finals of the invitational is evidence against what i am saying, but this is just one piece of data to add to the pool.

Shardless generates far more card advantage than just with Ancestral Vision. They also have Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Hymn to Tourach. They also attack our manabase with Wasteland (this can be mitigated by fetching basics, but this may hamper our board development by not having access to the correct colors at the critical time) and have Creeping Tar Pit, which is a legit way to sidestep our Souls clogging and attack our Jace. This matchup's a lot tougher than you're making it seem.

[learntolove6]

Shardless generates far more card advantage than just with Ancestral Vision. They also have Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Hymn to Tourach. They also attack our manabase with Wasteland (this can be mitigated by fetching basics, but this may hamper our board development by not having access to the correct colors at the critical time) and have Creeping Tar Pit, which is a legit way to sidestep our Souls clogging and attack our Jace. This matchup's a lot tougher than you're making it seem.

you might be right, but it's not enough to push the esper out. we attack from a ton of angles too. usually any 2 of our routes to victory (souls, skull, jace) are good enough to ride to victory, so it's just a matter of getting to that point. i may be making it seem easier than it is, but i don't think it's by much.

[AEnesidem]

you might be right, but it's not enough to push the esper out. we attack from a ton of angles too. usually any 2 of our routes to victory (souls, skull, jace) are good enough to ride to victory, so it's just a matter of getting to that point. i may be making it seem easier than it is, but i don't think it's by much.

Nah really it's one of our harder matchups, they have tons of CA we can't keep up with and have their own jaces, which is an important factor. DRS is also very good against us. They have a clear advantage.

[ThediscoPower]

how dio you like the meddling mage/batterskull? i have wanted to try those cards i nthe sb for a while but i have not had the chance.

For meddling mage, I absolutely love that card, to the point where I am trying to fit in the third copy somewhere. It complements how I want to play agaisnt combo well, in the sense that the card is a proactive way to disrupt combo decks, while also providing some damage on the board. It rewards playing it with a lot of ways to see the opponent's hand, along with straight skill, I guess, when you play it blind. It is also interesting to note that it is a good way to counter xantid swarm like stuff, or a way to disrupt through a leyline of sanctity. Recently, some people have been telling me that a few mages could be sided in against decks like bug to void a few of their cards (for exemple, naming decay to shut down their main removal, or naming ancestral visions to shut down their engine), however I am not really sure how it would do, and certainly did not try that out.

For batterskull number 2, i was surprised by it. i did not think it would be any real good, and tried it solely on the fact that someone told me to try it out and that it was what they did in modern to play against jund, except that we can tutor for our copies. Then, in practice, it happened to be really good for a few reasons. 1. decks like jund hate batterskull, and usually start playing like the crisis is adverted f when your first copy hits the bin. By itself, I have won games when they would make me discard the first copy, but then i would play a second mystic, search for copy number 2 and put it into play with the active mystic, shattering their dreams. 2. Batterskull is a cool topdeck against those decks. 3. having 2 batterskulls in play against decks that already have troubles against one copy without actually making them scoop (creature based decks for instance) seems like a straight win potential (never happened yet, so I don't really know about that).

Finally, I also wanted to test something like baneslayer angel to bring in against miracles like decks, along with jund and bug, and maybe even decks like goblin. I don't know if it is worth it, but it is an idea I had not too long ago.

I would also advocate playing 1 or 2 wastelands to deal with problematic lands in general. It has been helping me against tarpits.

[Kirika]

@Aenesiden
I think 4 Snapcasters maybe to many. I been happy with 3. You don't want be holding 2 or more Snapcasters in hand with nothing to flash back.

I like Clique because its castable as an instant and gets information on your opponent's hand while taking out their best card and its a flying clock. I'd consider running a second one but space is too tight. I run second one in the board.

@lost_ronin_soul
I would run 4 Stoneforge Mystic. Not sure about Izzet Charm over the 4th Swords to Plowshares since Swords to Plowshares kills much more then Izzet Charm. If anything I would run Izzet Charm over the 4th Lightning Bolt.

@mike1987
I run 22 lands which I find sufficient with 4 Brainstorms, 1 Sensei's Divining Top and 3-4 Dark Confidant.

@Arsenal
You really want Rest in Peace against Punshing Jund. Baring it getting Abrupt Decayed, Rest in Peace is so good, gimping Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Punshing Fire. Dark Confidant for card draw is the equalizer versus the BUG match up. Without it they out card advantage you between all Ancestral Visions and Cascade.

@Thediscopower
Will have to try Batterskull #2 at some point but I play against lots of combo at my local store so I have Flusterstorms in my board. Meddling mage sounds like a good idea to try versus combo too. I prefer Rest in Peace for my grave yard hate.

[xfxf]

Any opinions on maindeck Detention Sphere in the place of Vindicate?

Pros:
Pitchable to FoW (blah blah)
Maindeck answer to S&T
Possible answer to a bunch of Goblins Tokens (corner case)
Answers everything Vindicate can
Easier to cast off of basics
Also hits Thrun (another corner case)

Cons:
Not a Snapcaster target
May not be a permanent removal

[Arsenal]

I've found Vindicate able to blow up lands to be relevant. A single Maze of Ith can throw a major wrench into our dude + equipment plan.

[ThediscoPower]

@ kirika

You remind me that i actually wanted to try 3 copies of dark confidant in my sideboard against your usual fair decks!!! Well, I guess I'll have some more work to do in the coming week. Also, I agree with rest in piece, however the only reason I cut it was because I thought it would be a total nombo with darkblast, so I opted for relic as the third anti graveyard. actually, how many confidants do you play for reference?

@bilb_o

Arsenal is right, in the fact that vindicate hitting lands in a huge thing. Also, doesn't thrun have hexproof? Don't think sphere works on him. Another thing, I don't really want to play sphere against one million maindeck decays, nowadays. As Shaheen Soorani would say, vindicate is your miracle card in your deck. Your 1-outer to anything. As such, I don't believe it should be cut for anything.

[TheArchitect]

What would you recommend for a SB, vidi's list maindeck in my meta. In my area there's little to no Jund, RUG, stoneblade or agent BUG. There is however a crapton of combo, particularly TES with some S&T. I mostly want extra hate against storm but dont need to worry as much about tribal, the mirror or Jund.

Any suggestions for a SB or modifications to the maindeck?

[learntolove6]

Nah really it's one of our harder matchups, they have tons of CA we can't keep up with and have their own jaces, which is an important factor. DRS is also very good against us. They have a clear advantage.

fair enough. if im wrong, im wrong.

[xfxf]

Yes Vindicate hits land, that's quite big.. I play 2 Wastelands as well and often used Vindicate on lands, I don't know how I missed that. I think I got too excited at the idea of a maindeck S&T answer all of a sudden.

[Arsenal]

I've always wanted to fit 1-2 Wasteland in here, not for mana/color denial ala RUG Delver, but to get rid of problematic lands (Maze of Ith being the worst offender) once the game has entered grindtime. Opposing Academy Ruins, opposing Karakas, Maze of Ith, etc all can be pretty big problems in the long game. Even 1 Wasteland in addition to 1 Vindicate we normally play would help this. Has anyone thought the same about problematic lands, or does it not come up often enough to warrant the inclusion of yet another colorless mana producing land (I hate having Academy Ruins in my opener, and would probably stab myself if I opened with Ruins + Wasteland).

EDIT: Upon further thought, I think 1-2 Wasteland could definitely be in the UW Stone Blade shell, but probably not the 3 color UWb or UWr shell, too taxing on the already precarious manabase.

[zerzab11]

@ TheArchitect: In this meta I would highly recommend my SB on the beginning of the page. Boarding 13 cards vs those combo decks is huge. Postboard TES, ANT, or SaS become very positive in my opinion!

@ Arsenal: I know many are disagree'ing here, but cutting the Ruins for a one of Wasteland, has been huge for me. Ruins are so seldom used and Wastelands versality makes up for that, while making the combo MU better aswell.
I can remember a clear 3 games which I won just on the back of Wasteland (including the fact, that players don't expect to see this from Esper...people netdecking lists, bla), where as I can't tell this from Ruins (little evidence I know) . In the lategame I usually prefer drawing /finding Jace, Souls etc. then skipping my drawstep for my BSK. Maybe this is a playstyle decision as well...

EDIT: I agree that playing both Ruins and Waste seems to taxing for the Esper manabase.

[xfxf]

Arsenal,

I've been running the following manabase for the past 2 months:
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
2x Island
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Scrubland
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
2x Wasteland

It may look greedy but I'm feeling perfectly comfortable with it. Maybe because I've been historically playing blue control decks always with Wastelands and feel like it's a safety net against a bunch of things. About a month ago they saved me from a lethal Price of Progress twice. You'd think it's a corner case use, but it's just such a utility I can't do without it.

Edit: Also speaking of opposing trouble lands even cards like Phyrexian Tower can be quite relevant in our weeklies. So I think yes, having the ability to get rid of them is important if you are not playing in a SCG copy-paste meta.

[Tigro215]

So every once and a while a jank card appears and becomes playable. I want to know that if the increase in Liliana decks (Jund, BUG variants, ect) does Dodecapod (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109736) seem playable?

[Arsenal]

So every once and a while a jank card appears and becomes playable. I want to know that if the increase in Liliana decks (Jund, BUG variants, ect) does Dodecapod (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109736) seem playable?

I think Lingering Souls is a pretty good "answer" to Liliana of the Veil (Souls combats her +1, -2, and just flatout attacks her with 1/1 flyers).

[Tigro215]

I think Lingering Souls is a pretty good "answer" to Liliana of the Veil (Souls combats her +1, -2, and just flatout attacks her with 1/1 flyers).

True True, but a 5/5 in tandem with Souls doesnt seem bad either

[Arsenal]

True True, but a 5/5 in tandem with Souls doesnt seem bad either

I agree, but it seems way too narrow as it only shines against one specific card that is played in a couple decks. And you'd never want to hardcast him as he's just a 3/3 for 4 mana whereas you could've spent that 4 mana on Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[learntolove6]

Arsenal,

I've been running the following manabase for the past 2 months:
1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
2x Island
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Scrubland
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
2x Wasteland

It may look greedy but I'm feeling perfectly comfortable with it. Maybe because I've been historically playing blue control decks always with Wastelands and feel like it's a safety net against a bunch of things. About a month ago they saved me from a lethal Price of Progress twice. You'd think it's a corner case use, but it's just such a utility I can't do without it.

Edit: Also speaking of opposing trouble lands even cards like Phyrexian Tower can be quite relevant in our weeklies. So I think yes, having the ability to get rid of them is important if you are not playing in a SCG copy-paste meta.

what does your maindeck look like? i agree with arsenal in that I have wanted to play 1-2 wastelands for a while, but i never know what to cut (it really helps against punishing jund). I have considered, as zerzab said, just cutting the 1 academy ruins for 1 wasteland, but i'm not sure about that. i also see that you're running 23 lands, so i'm just genuinely curious what your main deck looks like (i.e. what you cut)

[ThediscoPower]

@ TheArchitect: In this meta I would highly recommend my SB on the beginning of the page. Boarding 13 cards vs those combo decks is huge. Postboard TES, ANT, or SaS become very positive in my opinion!

@ Arsenal: I know many are disagree'ing here, but cutting the Ruins for a one of Wasteland, has been huge for me. Ruins are so seldom used and Wastelands versality makes up for that, while making the combo MU better aswell.
I can remember a clear 3 games which I won just on the back of Wasteland (including the fact, that players don't expect to see this from Esper...people netdecking lists, bla), where as I can't tell this from Ruins (little evidence I know) . In the lategame I usually prefer drawing /finding Jace, Souls etc. then skipping my drawstep for my BSK. Maybe this is a playstyle decision as well...

EDIT: I agree that playing both Ruins and Waste seems to taxing for the Esper manabase.

Did the same here, cut the ruins for the single wasteland. Worked well so far. However, I stayed at 22 lands. I tried to play 2 waste + ruins on 23 lands, but I hated having to mull good hands with colorless mana.

[xfxf]

what does your maindeck look like? i agree with arsenal in that I have wanted to play 1-2 wastelands for a while, but i never know what to cut (it really helps against punishing jund). I have considered, as zerzab said, just cutting the 1 academy ruins for 1 wasteland, but i'm not sure about that. i also see that you're running 23 lands, so i'm just genuinely curious what your main deck looks like (i.e. what you cut)

I tried a Baleful Strix build for a while, got satisfied with my aggro matchup but moved back to the classical build. I don't know what I'm cutting (or missing) from the mainstream build but this is my current maindeck:

3 Jace
3 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
4 SFM
3 Lingering Souls

4 Swords
1 Verdict
1 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 FoW

4 Brainstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

23 Lands

[ThediscoPower]

you are cutting ponder, I believe

[AEnesidem]

I tried a Baleful Strix build for a while, got satisfied with my aggro matchup but moved back to the classical build. I don't know what I'm cutting (or missing) from the mainstream build but this is my current maindeck:

3 Jace
3 Snapcaster
1 Vendilion Clique
4 SFM
3 Lingering Souls

4 Swords
1 Verdict
1 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 FoW

4 Brainstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

23 Lands

You miss the ponder.
In these lists i personally find ponder better than the 23d land. Ponder helps you search for your one of's. It dogs for land too and is an extra card to pitch to fow when needed (which is very relevant). I actually never felt the need for extra land. And if i'd add a 23d land i wouldn't really want it to be colorless since that wouldn't help me muchfurther and still increases the chance of bad mana in our opening hands.

[xfxf]

As I said I didn't have any problems getting my colors right with this list yet. I'm pretty comfortable running this manabase and Wasteland is rad. However I was recently considering to add a singleton Ponder to search for my silver bullets but didn't know what to cut. I'll try rolling without an EE for a while because so far every time I drew it, it could have either been better as a Swords, Verdict or a Vindicate. Maybe it's good because it can replace any of those to some extent but I'm feeling like I'd rather have the Ponder to search exactly what I'm looking for.

[Kirika]

I am not sure why more people aren't running Dark Confidant in their stoneblade builds. I been running it for a long time and I really like it other then the low blue count for Force of Will which doesn't matter much of the time as you board Forces out. I really like the card draw. It got even better with the ability to Cavern of Souls on Wizard

Current list is this with 3 Dark Confidant, might cut Inquisition for the 4th Confidant. Only issue I have with it is the blue count for force is pretty low. might make Spell Pierce into a Ponder. Not sure on what I would cut from the board if I wanted to try out Geist.
Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Black (6)
3 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Blue (16+1 gold)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Spell Snare
1 Vendilion Clique

Gold (2)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate

White (11)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Lingering Souls
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (22)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
1 Darkblast (elves, r/u delver, death/taxes, confidant mirrors)
1 Disenchant (Equipment, Choke)
1 Duress (control/combo)
2 Flusterstorm (control/combo)
1 Force of Will (combo)
1 Humility (big creature decks, reanimator, sneak/show)
1 Perish (Green decks)
3 Rest in Peace (Graveyard hate)
1 Supreme Verdict (creatures)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (green decks, control)
1 Vendilion Clique (control/combo)
1 Zealous Persecution (elves, death+taxes, mirror)

Go back a bunch of posts if you want all the card explanations or ask me to repost that was really long.


@bib_o
I don't like Detention Sphere as a replacement for Vindicate it can't hit land and gets killed by Abrupt Decay/Disenchant/Ray of Revelation and you can't Snapcaster it.

I see the merits of Wasteland but I am not sure its worth the 4th Colorless land in a 3 color deck. I already sometimes get screwed by the Cavern of Souls, Academy Ruins, Karakas combination and Karakas makes white + Cavern casts Dark Confidant, Snapcaster and Clique

I like the 1st Sensei's Divining Top before I like the first Ponder. Top can be used for the long game for improving card quality.


@ThediscoPower
Don't see an issue with Darkblast and Rest in Peace. You want Darkblast for matchups with lots of X/1s like Elves, R/U Delver, Death/Taxes, other decks with Dark Confidant. Rest in Peace you want against Dredge, RUG Delver, Punishing Jund/Maverick. Rest in Peace is probably your best answer to Punishing Fire as Wastelands really stretch your manabase and Rest in Peace also nerfs Goyf, Goose and just wins vs Dredge if they can't kill it.


@Tigro215
I don't think Dodecapod is worth it. Too narrow. If you want additional answers to Liliana, Vendilion Clique, Detention Sphere or another Vindicate if your affraid of Abrupt Decay has more applications then Dodecapod. Lingering Souls as Arsenal mentioned is already good versus Liliana.

[learntolove6]

I am not sure why more people aren't running Dark Confidant in their stoneblade builds. I been running it for a long time and I really like it other then the low blue count for Force of Will which doesn't matter much of the time as you board Forces out. I really like the card draw. It got even better with the ability to Cavern of Souls on Wizard

Current list is this with 3 Dark Confidant, might cut Inquisition for the 4th Confidant. Only issue I have with it is the blue count for force is pretty low. might make Spell Pierce into a Ponder. Not sure on what I would cut from the board if I wanted to try out Geist.

Is bob better than baleful strix, which always sees a card, is blue, and can fly? I'm just asking, not saying bob isn't good because I think he is in this deck.

I also cut 1 lingering souls for 1 sorin, lord of innistrad. sdematt is talking that card up big time over on the rock thread and he convinced me to try it in here. another 4 mana card that's really good in the BGx match up. big issues become gaddok teeg and spell pierce in terms of resolving him, but he's at least worth testing!

[AEnesidem]

Is bob better than baleful strix, which always sees a card, is blue, and can fly? I'm just asking, not saying bob isn't good because I think he is in this deck.

I also cut 1 lingering souls for 1 sorin, lord of innistrad. sdematt is talking that card up big time over on the rock thread and he convinced me to try it in here. another 4 mana card that's really good in the BGx match up. big issues become gaddok teeg and spell pierce in terms of resolving him, but he's at least worth testing!

I find eslpeth to be better than sorin overall. But the most important thing that keeps me off of either elspeth or sorin is: Lingering souls' impact is imediate and is a waaaaay better combination with jace. That and also: our deck is already pretty heavy in curve. I wouldn't want to make my curve even worse.

[learntolove6]

I find eslpeth to be better than sorin overall. But the most important thing that keeps me off of either elspeth or sorin is: Lingering souls' impact is imediate and is a waaaaay better combination with jace. That and also: our deck is already pretty heavy in curve. I wouldn't want to make my curve even worse.

oh i definitely agree with you. lingering souls is one of the best cards in this deck, i am not discounting it's power. i just want to test something that could be alright. i can't discount it without personal evidence that it's bad.

[thecrav]

I'm not going to argue that Bob is wrong, but I think there are two main reasons people aren't running Bob:

You've got 5 things that will hit your for 5 ( 4 FoW and 1 Batterskull)

You reduce the threat level of the deck in exchange for the long game of drawing cards. For example, in your build, you've had to remove 4 cards to make room for your three Bobs and a Top.

Again, I'm not trying to say you're right or wrong, but I would guess that these are the two biggest reasons people are choosing not to go with the darkest of confidants.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Something I'm trying, not really anything out of the blue (there is a pun in that somewhere) but baleful strix is something I've wanted to try

Lands:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flat
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Jace:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Lingering Souls
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
1 Vindicate
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard:
3 Geist of Sant Traft
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disenchant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Perish
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Vendilion Clique

I could see myself missing the Ponder, but my thought was with Baleful Strix, it cantrips and functions as pseudo~removal (insofar that anything it blocks will die), it can't find me land or shuffle my deck though, the supreme verdict was cut because the only creature based decks I've been really running into are jund, and perish does exactly what I want verdict to do...but cheaper.

As for bob, the reason I can fathom why it hasn't been played is this, the deck runs a (relatively) high curve, we have jace, batterskull, lingering souls, force of will etc, things that when flipped, are a punch in the face, we're not Jund/Esper Deathblade and can manipulate the top of our deck or mitigate the damage with DRS. In my experience, I've felt that, although the extra cards would be huge, it's not that needed in the deck.

[Mackan]

I really, really, like Dark confidant. Unfortunatly it's hard to make it work in this deck beacuse of the high curve and the grindy (lategame) nature of the deck. As a maindeck card he only makes bolt/plow good against us (killing mystic with plow is ok) but I like him as a sideboardplan the way some players have him in their CB-thopter sideboards...
The list is tight and we allready have a lot of CA. Bob is a billion times better than geist of saint traft so there is allways that ;)
Speaking of cb-thopters... this is a good sideboardplan if the meta becomes infested with Lingering soulsmirror. We allready have SFM to find the sword I mean.

[Tigro215]

What's the best way to include rest in peace into out side board? I have a tournament this saturday and I know of 5 players going, playing Jund, GWB (No Goyf/Knight), Esperblade, and Merfolk and U/R Delver

This is my current list and I've been having a blast playing it and it plays extremely tight.
1x Batterskull
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Flooded Strand
3x Force of Will
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Island
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karakas
2x Lingering Souls
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Ponder
1x Scrubland
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Spell Pierce
1x spell snare
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Swamp
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
3x Tundra
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
3x Underground Sea
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Vindicate
1x Wasteland

Side:
1x blue elemental blast
1x Darkblast
1x detention sphere
1x Disenchant
2x flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Perish
1x relic of progenitus
1x supreme verdict
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Zealous Persecution

Any suggestions?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Probably the relic, although I've never really felt the deck needs RiP, we have enough interaction with the graveyard to where it's actually harmful to us (makes lingering souls much worse, and snapcaster useless), unless you expect a field of dredge..which would be a tad strange.

[Tigro215]

I'm more or less just trying to find away around punishing jund... Matchup just seems so terrible and RIP is one of the best ways to keep it under control. What does everyone think about Moat right now too? Probably not main but side?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I'm more or less just trying to find away around punishing jund... Matchup just seems so terrible and RIP is one of the best ways to keep it under control. What does everyone think about Moat right now too? Probably not main but side?

The two surgicals you have SHOULD be doing it then, they can Abrupt decay RiP and they can recover (they can also swing with DRS and Bob if they have to) from it, surgical hits the problem card in question, without it, they are pretty much Jund with a worse manabase and no manlands.

Moat seems pretty real against Jund, given the relative rarity of the card, they probably have literally two outs to it in their deck and won't be playing around it (actually, how do they?), judging by the rest of the DTB section though, there are only 3 decks it's really dead to (Miracle Control, ANT and Sneak attack), the rest it's perfectally playable against, of those, maverick and goblins it's probably weakest against, Maverick can blow it up with ease (although it's pretty obvious when they are going to, GSZ =2, I wonder...) and Goblins can combo through it and have enough mana denial to make the second white really tough to accomplish.

[Mackan]

@Moat
I don't think Moat is really good in this aggro-control shell... Why build a fort when your gameplan is attacking with equipped creatures?

@Punishing fire from Aggro-loam/Loam-control/Punishing Jund
run wasteland... it's that good. Not only will you cripple their greedy mana and stop the P.Fire-engine, you will also limit their resources and make batterskull a problematic threat (as they need tons of mana to kill it with P.fire). Surgical nabbing fire/grove/loam is also great. If you keep them of CA you will win with souls or batterskull and they die with REB, Liliana and bolts in hand. The matchup is about finding your role and switch a lot. Both Engineered plague and Ancient grudge trumps our lategame but without cardselection it's not likely they will have everything all the time, adjust accordingly.

[learntolove6]

So I tried out Sorin and he did not get there (as I was told on this thread and by my girlfriend), but i'm in the business of trying different things right now. I cut 1 Lingering Souls and 1 Vendilion Clique maindeck for 2 Geist of St. Dude. He's pretty strong, but pretty bad in some match-ups, but his power alone might be worth the maindeck slots, but probably not.

As a somewhat related note, does anyone's list run 2 lingering souls instead of 3? If so, how much have you liked that?

[lsho]

So I tried out Sorin and he did not get there (as I was told on this thread and by my girlfriend), but i'm in the business of trying different things right now. I cut 1 Lingering Souls and 1 Vendilion Clique maindeck for 2 Geist of St. Dude. He's pretty strong, but pretty bad in some match-ups, but his power alone might be worth the maindeck slots, but probably not.

As a somewhat related note, does anyone's list run 2 lingering souls instead of 3? If so, how much have you liked that?

Well I guess you can run 2 instead of 3 Souls if you don't play Intuition. It makes it way worse...

[Arsenal]

Well I guess you can run 2 instead of 3 Souls if you don't play Intuition. It makes it way worse...

Vidi ran 4 FoW and 2 Souls maindeck in a SCG Open as he anticipated a heavy combo meta. Souls can definitely be cut down to 2 copies if you don't anticipate a lot of grindy matchups. Even 2 Souls / 2 Clique maindeck seems like a reasonable split as you aren't giving up a ton in the grindy matchups, but you still are getting a bit better in the combo matchups.

[Tormod]

IMHO

4 FOW in MD is correct right now.
Anything less than 3 Lingering Souls is Blasphemy unless you are running 2 Souls + 1 Elspeth KE

[Kirika]

Went 2-2 at a local tourney with my usual list other then I took out Humility for a Notion Thief in the board which I never used. I wanted to Notion Theif someone's Brainstorm or Jacestorm but maybe next time.

Round 1 vs Lands (0-1-1 loss cause I punted)
Game 1 goes really long and I punt game 1 because I was trying to play fast and I forgot to brainstorm with Jace and put my land back on top to not die to Dark Confidant. Did not bounce my Bob because was digging for the Vindicate for his Glacial Chasm. Flipped Supreme Verdict to Dark Confidant when I was at 3 and the next card was Vindicate with enough for lethal damage on the board :(. Game 2 ends in a draw because of time with him at 8 with only 1 more turn of Glacial Chasm and I have Dark Confidant, Clique w Karakas and Batterskull. Put his Life from the Loam on the bottom via Clique.

Round 2 vs Dredge (1-2 loss)
game 1 he wins really quickly as dredge does in game 1 unless you get the quick Stoneforge into batterskull which I do not.
game 2 I win off Rest in Peace.
game 3 he goes first and unmasks me taking my rest in peace since I can't play my spell snare or flusterstorm. He gets out an imp discards a dredger and kills me before I draw anything relavent.

Round 3 vs Storm (2-1 win)
Game 1 he can't find any gas and I get out a Dark Confidant and Souls tokens for the beat down.
Game 2 I duress his Wish and get out a Jace and start fate sealing him. He tries to go off but I have the flusterstorm He tries to go off again the turn before I ultimate but I have Flusterstorm + Snapcaster.

Round 4 vs Stoneblade mirror (1-0 win)
Game 1 I get my discard to remove his equipment and get out a top to get better quality and get out a bob for a short time before it gets Swords and he beats me pretty low with tokens before I get out Batterskull and eventually win with it. He concedes Game 2 to get food.


learntolove6
Dark Confidant and Baleful Strix serve different purposes. Dark Confidant assuming he survives gives you long term card advantage at the cost of life points which is ideal for grindy match ups. Baleful Strix gives you a 2 for 1 in most cases and is more for agressive match ups where a flying deathtouch blocker holds off their Tarmogoyf or other threat unless they remove it netting you a 2 for 1 since you drew a card and Strix either kills a creature or draws a removal spell.

I like Elspeth better then Sorin because the +3/+3 and Flying ability is pretty relavent for closing out games faster then life link vampires.

I haven't got around trying

I run 2 Lingering Souls and an Elspeth and I like it. Elspeth helps deal with Jace mirrors while being good against agressive decks. Also quite good against Liliana of the Veil.


@AEnesidem
Lingering Souls is better at protecting Jace making 2 tokens immediately which have flying but Elspeth is not hindered by graveyard hate and the +3/+3 and flying ability is quite good on creatures with equipment. I also found people boarding in Extractions against me to take out my Lingering Souls so Elspeth instead of the 3rd Souls helps in this case.

@thecrav
I been running Esper with Dark Confidant for years before there was a Stoneforge Mystic and the creature base was Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger so I can't see not including Dark Confidant unless you drop black.

I haven't had an issue running Dark Confidant in vintage with 4 Force of Will + Blightsteel Collosus/other big robot)

Bob for me was always in the deck. I just cut one Dark Confidant cause 16 blue cards was too low after adding Lingering Souls. 17 is kinda low too but playable.

There is a version with Confidant and Deathrite that has the Force of Wills in the board. Might try that but don't like giving up game 1 to combo.

@Lord_Mcdonalds
Looks good. Might have to try Strix at some point. It was quite good in Vintage with Welders and Moxes. I would run the 1st Sensei's Divining Top before I run the first Ponder. Its so good long game to improve card quality.

I still like Supreme Verdict against Merfolk and blue mirrors.

Rest in Peace is good against Dredge (nerfs entire deck till removed), Reanimator (puts them on show and tell plan), Punishing Jund (punishing fire/tarmogoyf), BUG (Shaman +Tarmogoyf), RUG (Goyf+Goose)


@Mackan
I found people boarding in Surgical Extraction to win the Lingering Souls war. Zealous Persecution is also pretty good here. Dunno about Thopter it gets better when you have Enlightened Tutor to find the other part.


@Tigro215
I would replace the Relic of Progenitus and 2 Surgical Extractions with 3 Rest in Peace. You tend to board out Lingering Souls and Snapcasters in match ups where you need Rest in Peace anyway like Reanimator, Dredge, RUG.

Moat is counterproductive because you want to swing with Batterskull Germ or Stoneforge Mystics equiped with Jitte. Linger Souls tokens and Vendilion Clique do fly over Moat but your locking out some of your own creatures. Humility would be a better choice since it nerfs certain too good creatures like Griselbrand and Emrakul to be 1/1s.

[Arsenal]

Re: the last few pages about possibly going down to 2 maindeck Lingering Souls and squeezing a 1-of Top somewhere in the maindeck... behold: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10736&iddeck=78381

That's right, Vidi cut a Souls for the Top. I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts behind the move and if it panned out for him (placed 1st, but still).

[Kirika]

@Arsenal
I been running a 1 of main deck Top. Top is amazing it improves your card quality and is great with fetch lands. Its really good in my build because I run Dark Confidant. Only 2 Lingering Souls has been fine. I don't run Intuition so no need for 3 of them. I do run Elspeth Knight Errant as another way to make tokens though. I find in Stoneblade mirrors some people board in Surgical Extractions and Extract your Lingering Souls after you cast your first one so having only 2 makes that hurt less.

[Pdingo]

Ok maybe BoB but i wouldnt play it because the high mana base.
But i dont understand the strix.
1. Why i should cut some important slots. And the slots are very hard to place the right card in.
2. I dont like to tapped out for a 1/1 guy, that makes not much.. i use better discard, jace or counters or vindicate.
3. he cost 2 cmc and that meens 3-4 cmc 2 cards more.
4. Die to each removal.

Play baleful strix in esperstoneblade is wrong.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Ok maybe BoB but i wouldnt play it because the high mana base.
But i dont understand the strix.
1. Why i should cut some important slots. And the slots are very hard to place the right card in.
2. I dont like to tapped out for a 1/1 guy, that makes not much.. i use better discard, jace or counters or vindicate.
3. he cost 2 cmc and that meens 3-4 cmc 2 cards more.
4. Die to each removal.

Play baleful strix in esperstoneblade is wrong.

1. Which slots do you speak of, for me, I cut V-Clique (underwhelmin in quite a few matchups) from the main, Supreme Verdict altogether (meta reasons) and ponder (arguable, but in this instance, I have 4 Brainstorm + 3 Baleful Strix, meaning that I have effectively 7 cantrips as opposed to 5), bare in mind, no ones is saying that Baleful Strix is an auto include (unless I am missing something), in creature heavy metas, he's something they have to play around, no one likes swinging into him.

2. a 1/1 guy that draws a card and trades with every creature in the format.

3. I have no idea what you mean

4. Tarmogoyf does to most removal in the format, what's your point?

[Pdingo]

1. I would never cut the Clique, She makes a lot more. The Ponder to.

2. I mean why i should tap out for a 1/1 guy, that makes not much. Insteat Keep the mana for StP or Snapcaster, Counter etc.

3. I mean with this, when you Play strix, she cost 2 mana and not 1 or had Flash like Clique and Snapcaster. She is to slow. Same with Verdict, ok 4 cmc but it destroys every creature;) and Strix maybe one.

4. Yes that's true but Tarmogoyf is a lot better and a clock;)

[AEnesidem]

1. I would never cut the Clique, She makes a lot more. The Ponder to.

2. I mean why i should tap out for a 1/1 guy, that makes not much. Insteat Keep the mana for StP or Snapcaster, Counter etc.

3. I mean with this, when you Play strix, she cost 2 mana and not 1 or had Flash like Clique and Snapcaster. She is to slow. Same with Verdict, ok 4 cmc but it destroys every creature;) and Strix maybe one.

4. Yes that's true but Tarmogoyf is a lot better and a clock;)

1. clique doesn't do much more, i love clique but baleful strix does just as much. Strix shines where clique sucks: against on-combo creature decks.

2+3. because that 1/1 guy cantrips and functions as removal which produces card advantage and is very relevant. 2 cmc is not slow, by that standard, every card except for 1 cmc cards would be slow. And why not keep mana open for snap? you can't play snapcaster effectively on turn 2, later on you decide which play is best.

4. What he was trying to explain to you is that "dies to removal" is not an argument. Accepting that as an argument would make all creatures mediocre cards.

[TheArchitect]

I got top 8 at a local fairly competitive tournament at Mythic Games in Elmira, NY. It was my first time playing the deck at outside of 5$ FNM events and really liked it.

I ran Vidi's list with this sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Perish
1 Force of Will

Cook at and a lot of other TES players usually show up for this event. I wouldn't always be running Ethersworn Cannonist, but Ive had to play against TES in 3 of the 6 rounds at this store before. And while I didnt play against storm, it as great against Enchantress.

Im not sure I like RiP over surgical. My logic was that the matchup where I want GY hate (dredge, reanimtor, etc) I dont need souls. And RiP would also help more than surgical against goyf, pfire, the mirror, or kotr decks.


2-1 - Scapeshift Nic Fit

Im usually on the other end of this matchup and I know its actually pretty 50/50, Scapeshift is probably even a tad favored. I had solid hands against him though. You can't let this matchup go for long or they will just topdeck a burning wish or scapeshift and instawin if they have 7-8 lands out. G3, I dropped T3 Giest, took some huntmaster beats and then T4 Perished away 2 Huntmasters, therapied a 3rd and then just rode geist to victory after FoWing a deed.

2-0 - Reanimator

Neither game was even close, I had so much disruption both games, and getting a jace online sealed up both games.

0-2 - Esper mirror

I sided out souls, in geist, and I brought in RiP thinking he'd leave in souls (he did). I'm not sure if this is right but It didn't matter because both games I was stuck on 3 lands till like turn 10, where he hit every land drop and won the jace race.

1-1 - Fish

I had him dead on board G3 with a jace, 4 souls and jitte and he just had 1 lord. If I had one more turn I could have killed him. Oh well.

2-0 - Enchantress with RiP/helm

I didn't want to see this matchup, I know its usually pretty bad. But I had a crap ton of disruption both games and it worked well. I played very conservatively. Saving cantrips I "needed" to find land drops in case I had FoW an enchantress and it paid off. G2 he kept a very greedy hand and therapy hitting triple enchantress presence punished him for it. I dropped a Cannonist followed by jace and geist and that was game.

3-1-1

There was a LOT of draws, only 28 players and I had good breakers so 3-1-1 actually good enough for 4th going into the top 8. I was paired against reanimator again and new Id win that again. The top 8 was Jund, RUG, Junk, another Esper, Fish, Goblins, reanimator and me but everyone else wanted to split and I was hungry so I didn't mind taking 160$.


Anyone have any tips on winning the Esper mirror? Also, yesterday was an anomaly, a lot of the combo players weren't there or were playing non-combo decks but in an area were at least 30% of the players are very skilled combo players is there any changes to my MD or SB anyone could recommend? I was thinking doing 4 MD FoW but I'm not sure if its actually necessary since the deck is probably solid enough against combo already.

[goblinsplayer]

Nice job evan! I think the combo players weren't there because of the Syracuse PTQ.

[Kirika]

@Pdingo
I wouldn't say playing Baleful Strix is wrong period. Esper Stoneblade is highly customizable to the metagame. Baleful Strix makes sense if your playing many creature decks. If you are playing a creature deck Baleful Strix draws you a card and either trades with a creature or draws removal spell that didn't hit your Stoneforge Mystic. Pretty good if your meta game is mostly creature decks. If your not playing against many creature decks then Baleful Strix is not that card you want.

@Lord_Mcdonalds
I agree if your meta is creatues then Baleful Strix is worth including.

@TheArchitect
Congratulations.

Ethersworn Canonist seems good. Might have to try that at some point.

I like Rest in Peace over Surgical because its just so much better against the grave yard decks. I just board out my Lingering Souls against most grave yard decks anyway. Also board out a Snapcaster if I board in Rest in Peace.

[learntolove6]

I got top 8 at a local fairly competitive tournament at Mythic Games in Elmira, NY. It was my first time playing the deck at outside of 5$ FNM events and really liked it.

I ran Vidi's list with this sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Perish
1 Force of Will

Cook at and a lot of other TES players usually show up for this event. I wouldn't always be running Ethersworn Cannonist, but Ive had to play against TES in 3 of the 6 rounds at this store before. And while I didnt play against storm, it as great against Enchantress.

Im not sure I like RiP over surgical. My logic was that the matchup where I want GY hate (dredge, reanimtor, etc) I dont need souls. And RiP would also help more than surgical against goyf, pfire, the mirror, or kotr decks.


2-1 - Scapeshift Nic Fit

Im usually on the other end of this matchup and I know its actually pretty 50/50, Scapeshift is probably even a tad favored. I had solid hands against him though. You can't let this matchup go for long or they will just topdeck a burning wish or scapeshift and instawin if they have 7-8 lands out. G3, I dropped T3 Giest, took some huntmaster beats and then T4 Perished away 2 Huntmasters, therapied a 3rd and then just rode geist to victory after FoWing a deed.

2-0 - Reanimator

Neither game was even close, I had so much disruption both games, and getting a jace online sealed up both games.

0-2 - Esper mirror

I sided out souls, in geist, and I brought in RiP thinking he'd leave in souls (he did). I'm not sure if this is right but It didn't matter because both games I was stuck on 3 lands till like turn 10, where he hit every land drop and won the jace race.

1-1 - Fish

I had him dead on board G3 with a jace, 4 souls and jitte and he just had 1 lord. If I had one more turn I could have killed him. Oh well.

2-0 - Enchantress with RiP/helm

I didn't want to see this matchup, I know its usually pretty bad. But I had a crap ton of disruption both games and it worked well. I played very conservatively. Saving cantrips I "needed" to find land drops in case I had FoW an enchantress and it paid off. G2 he kept a very greedy hand and therapy hitting triple enchantress presence punished him for it. I dropped a Cannonist followed by jace and geist and that was game.

3-1-1

There was a LOT of draws, only 28 players and I had good breakers so 3-1-1 actually good enough for 4th going into the top 8. I was paired against reanimator again and new Id win that again. The top 8 was Jund, RUG, Junk, another Esper, Fish, Goblins, reanimator and me but everyone else wanted to split and I was hungry so I didn't mind taking 160$.


Anyone have any tips on winning the Esper mirror? Also, yesterday was an anomaly, a lot of the combo players weren't there or were playing non-combo decks but in an area were at least 30% of the players are very skilled combo players is there any changes to my MD or SB anyone could recommend? I was thinking doing 4 MD FoW but I'm not sure if its actually necessary since the deck is probably solid enough against combo already.

awesome job man! if the field is anything close to jupiter games, top 8 is pretty good. i think souls is far too valuable in the esper mirror. rip stops half of souls and snapcaster, but i don't think that's a huge deal. i would have left souls in and cut 2-3 plow, and 1 verdict instead. i never really know about force, but it's probably right to bring out. you just want to save your discard til after a stoneforge or right before a jace will come out (if it's thoughseize, that is)

[TheArchitect]

awesome job man! if the field is anything close to jupiter games, top 8 is pretty good. i think souls is far too valuable in the esper mirror. rip stops half of souls and snapcaster, but i don't think that's a huge deal. i would have left souls in and cut 2-3 plow, and 1 verdict instead. i never really know about force, but it's probably right to bring out. you just want to save your discard til after a stoneforge or right before a jace will come out (if it's thoughseize, that is)

Thanks! I did also cut 2 StpS, verdict and 1 snap for 2 therapy and 2 RiP. I think your right though, Souls is too good there. I dont think Ill use RiP again though, so I wont have this issue. Also, for some reason like no one plays esper around here so the mirror is going to be rare. Mythic is like the same quality of players as jupiter, just usually less players. So its easier to top 8 for that reason. Like only 28 players showed up this month (usually its 30-50), compared to Jupiters regular 50-80.

[learntolove6]

Thanks! I did also cut 2 StpS, verdict and 1 snap for 2 therapy and 2 RiP. I think your right though, Souls is too good there. I dont think Ill use RiP again though, so I wont have this issue. Also, for some reason like no one plays esper around here so the mirror is going to be rare. Mythic is like the same quality of players as jupiter, just usually less players. So its easier to top 8 for that reason. Like only 28 players showed up this month (usually its 30-50), compared to Jupiters regular 50-80.

that's really cool. my crew and I (siiig and kich on here) want to head up to mythic for the next one. I think siiig and I are going to catch the next jupiter this weekend, so if you're there and wanna run some mirror matches, ill be more than willing to help :)

[Tormod]

This is my current list. I play in a meta that is pretty broad. One week I can face all combo decks, the next I end up facing 3 goyf decks in a row. I'm heavier on the control cards just because of the amount of combo in my meta. I abandoned Snapcaster due to the amount of Deathrite Shaman and rest in peace in my meta. In turn I adopted Rest in Peace as my graveyard hate. My success varies week to week depending on my match ups and how my deck is tuned. I can go 4-0 or I can 2-2.

Creatures 7
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Planeswalker 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Artifact 3
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls

Lands 22
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SIDEBOARD
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Flusterstorm
2 Perish
3 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate
2 Path to Exile

[Einherjer]

Cutting Snapcaster Mages seems like a truly bad attempt to achieve.... anything. It's probably just bad.
So you cut Snappy because there are so many Deathrite-Shaman.decs and RIP/Helm-Miracles?

1) Deathrite-Shaman.decs: Ok, your reasoning is that your Snapcasters get worse because the Shaman will most likely eat the Swords (other targets) in advance/in response? While this might be true I don't think that it is a viable attempt to solve this problem. Snapcaster Mage is our Bloodbraidelf. Chump your BB11, swords your Goyf anyone? Pierce your Liliana, take up Jitte and hit for 2? While he might be situationally bad from time to time you really want this guy, even in this MU where he is supposed to be inefficient.
2) RIP/Helm-Miracle: Snapcaster is rather dead once RIP lands. This is true. But you still have a guy that can hit for 2 and can be equipped. And most Miraclelists board out / minimize the RIPs postboard - only a few sideboards prefer to overload on the combo, though they are the minority. I'd still want to have Snapcaster vs Miracle, even against the RIP builds. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Mystic, T3 Snappy Thoughtseize? Bonkers?

Snapcaster Mage is one of the few reasons I sometimes feel that I have picked the wrong UWx-Controldeck - Miracle. Because I cannot afford to play Snapcaster Mages, but I'd love to. This card is just too good to not play it! Especially in a UWB Controldeck with alot of powerful targets, including nice 1ofs like Vindicate/Verdict which you can flashback too. Due to me Esperblade could aswell be called Snapmystic-Control, because Snapcaster is such an essential part of this deck - if there was enough space I'd play the full set - though my current list only features 3.

I'd really beg you to think about this decision again!

Greetings

[AEnesidem]

Cutting Snapcaster Mages seems like a truly bad attempt to achieve.... anything. It's probably just bad.
So you cut Snappy because there are so many Deathrite-Shaman.decs and RIP/Helm-Miracles?

1) Deathrite-Shaman.decs: Ok, your reasoning is that your Snapcasters get worse because the Shaman will most likely eat the Swords (other targets) in advance/in response? While this might be true I don't think that it is a viable attempt to solve this problem. Snapcaster Mage is our Bloodbraidelf. Chump your BB11, swords your Goyf anyone? Pierce your Liliana, take up Jitte and hit for 2? While he might be situationally bad from time to time you really want this guy, even in this MU where he is supposed to be inefficient.
2) RIP/Helm-Miracle: Snapcaster is rather dead once RIP lands. This is true. But you still have a guy that can hit for 2 and can be equipped. And most Miraclelists board out / minimize the RIPs postboard - only a few sideboards prefer to overload on the combo, though they are the minority. I'd still want to have Snapcaster vs Miracle, even against the RIP builds. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Mystic, T3 Snappy Thoughtseize? Bonkers?

Snapcaster Mage is one of the view reasons I sometimes feel that I have picked the wrong UWx-Controldeck - Miracle. Because I cannot afford to play Snapcaster Mages, but I'd love to. This card is just too good to not play it! Especially in a UWB Controldeck with alot of powerful targets, including nice 1ofs like Vindicate/Verdict which you can flashback too. Due to me Esperblade could aswell be called Snapmystic-Control, because Snapcaster is such an essential part of this deck - if there was enough space I'd play the full set - though my current list only features 3.

I'd really beg you to think about this decision again!


I agree, Snapcaster mage is one of the best cards in Esperblade. It's basicly the perfect environment for snapcaster due to all the good targets. I would never cut that card.
Greetings

[learntolove6]

Cutting Snapcaster Mages seems like a truly bad attempt to achieve.... anything. It's probably just bad.
So you cut Snappy because there are so many Deathrite-Shaman.decs and RIP/Helm-Miracles?

1) Deathrite-Shaman.decs: Ok, your reasoning is that your Snapcasters get worse because the Shaman will most likely eat the Swords (other targets) in advance/in response? While this might be true I don't think that it is a viable attempt to solve this problem. Snapcaster Mage is our Bloodbraidelf. Chump your BB11, swords your Goyf anyone? Pierce your Liliana, take up Jitte and hit for 2? While he might be situationally bad from time to time you really want this guy, even in this MU where he is supposed to be inefficient.
2) RIP/Helm-Miracle: Snapcaster is rather dead once RIP lands. This is true. But you still have a guy that can hit for 2 and can be equipped. And most Miraclelists board out / minimize the RIPs postboard - only a few sideboards prefer to overload on the combo, though they are the minority. I'd still want to have Snapcaster vs Miracle, even against the RIP builds. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Mystic, T3 Snappy Thoughtseize? Bonkers?

Snapcaster Mage is one of the view reasons I sometimes feel that I have picked the wrong UWx-Controldeck - Miracle. Because I cannot afford to play Snapcaster Mages, but I'd love to. This card is just too good to not play it! Especially in a UWB Controldeck with alot of powerful targets, including nice 1ofs like Vindicate/Verdict which you can flashback too. Due to me Esperblade could aswell be called Snapmystic-Control, because Snapcaster is such an essential part of this deck - if there was enough space I'd play the full set - though my current list only features 3.

I'd really beg you to think about this decision again!

Greetings

Just as I cut the 4th Snapcaster for the 1 Vendilion Clique, you motivate me to put it back in!

[Qweerios]

What is the rational behind the IoK/TS Split? I know casting TS twice via Snapcaster is a significant loss of life but you cannot control which one you will draw and when. Usually, when targeted discard is relevant to the matchup, loss of life is not. Unlike Junk decks, Blade Control does not need to mitigate the damage they take because of cards like Dark Confidant.

Why Vendilion Clique in the main at all? It seems to me like every permanent you resolve in this deck will net you card advantage no matter how they are dealt with except for Clique. Unless you have a Karakas or a Riptide Laboratory out, I don't see what is so good about Clique as a mainboard card that additional counters/removal couldn't accomplish.

What is so good about Spell Snare that other counterspells do not accomplish? Why not play 4 Spell Pierce and/or FoW before considering Spell Snare at all? Aside from the fact that it is double U costed, isn't the classic Counterspell superior in nearly every scenario? The only thing I see Spell Snare really good for is countering Stoneforge Mystic or any T2 plays after a T1 Polluted Delta into Swamp.

[Mackan]

Spell Snare stops;
Dark confidant
Snapcaster mage
Stoneforge mystic
Sylvan Library
Qasali Pridemage
Thalia, guardian of thraben
Serra avenger
Disenchant
Counterspell
Tarmogoyf
Gaddock Teeg
Hymn to tourach
Burning wish
Infernal tutor
Green Sun's zenith for 1
Exhume
Animate dead
Shallow grave
Goryou's vengeance
Chalice of the void for 1
Grim monolith
Fire//Ice
Umezawa's jitte
Merfolklords
Price of progress
Flame rift
Spellstutter sprite
Baleful strix
Searing blaze
Smash to smithereens
Counterbalance
Thopter foundry
Rest in Peace
Energy field
Tidehollow sculler
Meddling mage
...and more...
Decks where it has little to no use;
elves (visionary+gsz for 1), some show and tell variants (burning wish, defense grid), Dredge (breakthrough for 1), goblins (piledriver, instigator), Painter (Servant)
Basicly, spell snare is almost never dead and trading up a mana in tempo is nice too (and only -1 when played with snapcaster!).

Spell Pierce is better when the _primary goal_ is to stop a faster deck as it really drops in value when the game goes long. Countering Thoughtseize from ANT with pierce is somewhat similar to having spell snare for the burning wish.

I've played snare main and pierce in the board in every blue controldeck since pierce was printed and been happy with the split.
Pierce shines vs Sneak attack/show and tell, hymn/thoughtseize/etc and complement Snare versus pretty much any other spell-based deck. If the meta becomes infested with combo I would consider flusterstorm or a splash for Red blasts in those slots.

[gregtron]

I've played a bunch of games with Esper Stoneblade (an x-3 GP, a handful of xk events, some TCG points). I've liked how skill-intensive the games are, and how I always felt like I had a plethora of options and game against nearly everything, but lately I've been wanting to take it in a slightly different direction. I liked the philosophy that a bunch of Vapor Blade players were taking, but felt like the lists were trying to play like an equipment-based RUG list, and they just didn't feel good enough. The mana-denial plan that RUG plays IS nice, though, so I've been wondering if a list more like this could be successful.

3 geist
4 snapcaster
3 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique

2 jace

4 stifle
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 swords
4 force
4 spell pierce
1 counterspell

1 batterskull
1 jitte

4 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 arid mesa
1 scalding tarn
3 tundra
1 glacial fortress
4 island
2 plains
1 karakas

sb:
2 enlightened tutor
1 rest in peace
1 crucible of worlds
1 humility
1 grafdigger's cage
1 engineered explosives
1 detention sphere
2 flusterstorm
1 supreme verdict
4 meddling mage


The only real difference is cutting back to a two-color shell, and running the full set of Stifles. Have any of you tried anything like this?

[Shaka1333]

What about this very orginal list with Baleful Strix and Restoration Angel main deck ? (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443)
It made Top4 at the BOM8 Trial with 258 players earning 10 bilands to the player.

Yohan Dudognon

22 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Marsh Flats

12 CREATURES
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Restoration Angel

19 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Lingering Souls

7 OTHER SPELLS
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Rest in Peace
1 Notion Thief
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Geist of Saint Traft

[dunk]

Looks pretty sweet actually. I definitely want to give it a try and don't see anything wrong with it at the first glance. Very cute list, love the Angel and the Liliana. I will report back once I've got to play a few matches.

[Higgs]

Hey guys, what do you think about the Shardless BUG matchup. The deck seems to be picking up steam and it's a bad matchup for Esper. Do you think the deck can fight it with its classical Vidi/TomM build or do you think the deck should evolve into a more grindy Deathrite/Bob/Liliana style version?

[rancOr_]

The shardless bug mu is idd not easy. I've won 5/8times so far. Main goal is to keep drs off the table and try to land a jace( to keep up with all their ca,also they don't play a lot of counters). 2perish can do good work(also getting rid of active drs).

[Malakai]

Vs. Shardless BUG:
Take out force of will. Take out as much discard as you can manage, because you're going to go long. Bring in 4 pieces of removal; 4x path to exile works well, I expect you have diminishing returns the more expensive your removal. The basic plan is to be 12x removal.dec and only worry about Deathrite, Goyf, and their walkers. This plan works against basically every BUG deck; note that you also have to worry about Dark Confidant, if they have it.

I'm assuming asymmetric removal; Supreme Verdict doesn't seem like where you want to be vs. Liliana.dec.

[Tokugawa]

The shardless bug mu is idd not easy. I've won 5/8times so far. Main goal is to keep drs off the table and try to land a jace( to keep up with all their ca,also they don't play a lot of counters). 2perish can do good work(also getting rid of active drs).
Some SCG decklist contain Notion thief in their 75, which would immediately shut down cascade bug decks(they have no answers to that guy).

[Higgs]

I'm buying in on the Notion Thief hype, I am currently considering bringing in multiple Thiefs from the board even maybe in place of Jace to win the Jace and CA war. Also instead of loading up on removal my idea is to board Geists and SoFaF in conjunction with the Thief and go aggro on them. Trading 1 to 1 doesn't seem right to me when they can fill their hand or empty yours that fast.

[AEnesidem]

I'm buying in on the Notion Thief hype, I am currently considering bringing in multiple Thiefs from the board even maybe in place of Jace to win the Jace and CA war. Also instead of loading up on removal my idea is to board Geists and SoFaF in conjunction with the Thief and go aggro on them. Trading 1 to 1 doesn't seem right to me when they can fill their hand or empty yours that fast.

I think notion thief has become even more powerful now that jace will be harder to deal with. However i wouldn't start cutting jaces if jace just got better with the new rules changes. Control mirrors will now become hellish Jace races and a notion thief can win you that race singlehandedly.

[Kirika]

@Unsummon
I have to agree with Einherjer here that you should not cut Snapcaster Mage should have at least 2 if not 3. I'm not to keen on maindeck Geist. Geist is rather bad if your opponent has blockers. Would put in Snapcasters for Geist.

@Qweerios
The Thoughtseize vs Inquisition split is for playing Control/Combo versus aggro. Against Control you want to be able to take Jace and Combo you want to be able to take part of their combo your life isn't very relavent. Versus aggro you just want to take their cheap threat and your life is very relavent. Some blade decks run Dark Confidant. Deathrite Shaman is run along with Dark Confidant for some life gain in some blade decks.

Vendilion Clique is quite good against combo or control for information and to rid them of a combo peice or counter. Clique can flash in EoT and kill Jace if they didn't fateseal and don't have a blocker.

Spell Snare actually is quite good countering quite a bit as Mackan mentioned its just a bit narrow and deck space is tight. If your running less colors and have less options like UW only Spell Snare becomes a good option.

@Mackan
I rather board Flusterstorm then Spell Peirce however Flusterstorm does not hit Jace.

gregtron
Going 2 color and mana denial is definitely an interesting take. Why only 3 Stoneforge Mystic? I would cut the 4th Snapcaster for the 4th Stoneforge since you don't want too many Snapcasters in hand with nothing to flashback. I also would run 3 Jace since you want to draw one.

@Shaka1333
That list looks interesting. Baleful Strix is better in a creature metagame but I don't get why the list has 4 Force of Will if its a creature metagame since Force of Will is generally bad in a creature metagame. Not sure about only 1 Lingering souls with no Elspeth as alternate token generator. Lingering Souls can be pretty good in agressive match ups and to protect your Jace.

@Higgs
I board in Rest in Peace in the Shardless BUG match up. It gimps Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf. It does die to Abrupt Decay but Abrupt Decays are a bit overworked here having to kill Stoneforge Mystic and Dark Confidant. Dark Confidant helps you keep on cards vs their cascade and Ancestral Visions. Liliana is a problem but Vendilion Clique deals with it if they don't have a Strix to defend it. Vindicate is also good at tacking out Liliana.

I run my own list which has Dark Confidants, Stoneforge Mystics, Snapcaster Mages and a lone Vendilion Clique. I am not sure Deathrite Shamans are worth it since you really can't have a decent blue count for Force of Will at that point.

Where do you find the room in the board for more then 1 Notion Theif? I could see running 1 Notion Theif maindeck in place of a Snapcaster but I am not sure I like that very much since its more expensive cards to hit off Dark Confidant.

@Tokugawa
Don't BUG decks run Maelstrom Pulse? If I were running BUG I would run a couple Maelstrom Pulse.

@AEnesidem
I agree. I think stock in Dark Confidant rises because he puts a card in your hand and is unaffected by Notion Theif. Best not to use Jace for brainstorm if your opponent has mana to cast Notion Theif and rather fate seal instead.

[Piceli89]

What about this very orginal list with Baleful Strix and Restoration Angel main deck ? (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443)
It made Top4 at the BOM8 Trial with 258 players earning 10 bilands to the player.

Yohan Dudognon

22 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Marsh Flats

12 CREATURES
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Restoration Angel

19 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Lingering Souls

7 OTHER SPELLS
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Rest in Peace
1 Notion Thief
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Geist of Saint Traft

Nice way to promote yourself without saying it and nice list, even though the singleton Liliana I can't find quite hard to justify if not as a more expensive edict or a (still not for so long) quasi-Vindicate expecting a lot of BUG and Jund in BoM, as effectively turned out. Also, three Swords to Plowshares seems a bit risky; ok that you have added 3 Baleful Strix so that "removal" is still compensated, but these 2 cards serve different kind of purposes in different matchups, and I'd still get away with 4-2 rather than 3-3. Strix pitches to Force and is not dead against combo and that's fine, but Stp is way more crucial against tribal, Maverick and with Snapcaster Mage.

[ivanpei]

Anyone seen the spoiler for Young Pyromancer in M14?

So maybe a Red splash Blade deck is viable rather than black? It seems to be a worthy contender to lingering souls considering how many instant/sorceries this deck plays.

[Jblaze4lif]

What is everyones thoughts on Deathrite Shaman? I dont think it fits well with FOW and i like playing 4 FOW maindeck

[Shinwei]

What is everyones thoughts on Deathrite Shaman? I dont think it fits well with FOW and i like playing 4 FOW maindeck

If you really want to play 4 Force of Will maindeck, then I guess you can skip Deathrite Shaman. I feel fine with only 3 FOW though.

I did a little testing, and I think the Deathrite Shamans are really good against the version of this deck that does not run Deathrite Shaman. You can get your Jace out one turn earlier than your opponent, as well as mess his Snapcaster Mage targets.

I haven't been able to play against much else, but I have noticed that on turn 1 I almost never want to cast Deathrite Shaman if I have either Thoughtseize or Inquisition available to me. Then again, only thing that costs 3 mana in my deck is Vendilion Clique, so I'm perfectly fine with casting him on turn 2.

[Arsenal]

Deathblade takes SCG Baltimore, defeating Sneak and Show. Seems legit.

[Water_Wizard]

Deathblade is legit. I'm just not sure if the FOW's belong in the main.

Look at Todd Anderson's deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56323

Main deck 3 FOWs. Main deck 14 blue cards (2 SCM, 1 V. Clique, 3 Jace, 4 Brainstorm, 3 FOW, 1 Ponder). Is this enough to support 3 FOW? I guess it must be, or else Todd wouldn't have run it.

Vs. Combo, bring in 3 Geist, 2 Meddling Mage, and the other FOW and you're at 20 U cards. This seems about right. 18-19 blue cards is as low as you want to go to support 4 FOW.

Is it safe to support 3 FOW off of 14 U cards? It seems like your probability of having a FOW and another U card in your hand would drop significantly. However, I'm not a statistician.

[Chimera87]

So I've taken up EsperBlade as an alternative to BUG StrixStill in the past month. I've been to three tournaments sofar, putting up nice results with 4-1-1 (3-1-1 to go top 8; top 4 loss), 3-1-1 (I.D. last round, loss in top 8) and yesterday's 5-0-1 (I.D. last round, top4 split).

The list I ran the first two events:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
2 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
2 Flusterstorm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

And yesterday's list:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Creeping Tar pit
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
1 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
2 Flusterstorm
1 Perish
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Dimir Charm
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Notion Thief
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

My thoughts on Vidi's list initially were that the manabase was way too greedy for my taste. I ended up cutting some of the cards to get the Ponder count up and reduce the colourless sources. This turned out to work perfectly. However, I constantly felt that the Lingering Souls were just too expensive and I never wanted to see more than 1 in a game. That's why I ended up testing the StrixBlade list, which removes the Lingering Souls for Baleful Strix. Strix has proven its worth to me in my BUG StrixStill lists and I just needed to see what it did in StoneBlade. It was awesome all day, trading with Goys and wielding equipments like a champ.
I also tried Sensei's Divining Top over Ponder to see whether the late-game awesomness of Top could top the early game effectiveness of Ponder (using the argument of having enough to do on turn 1 anyway, with discard, brainstorm and plow). I loved them throughout yesterday's tournament. Lastly, I removed all the Spell Pierces with the argument that the discard is as effective in the early game and provides much needed information. Spell Pierce has been dead in hand too often in the previous tournaments. If there was room, I'd still have them in.

[Cire_dk]

Nice list, Congratz on your win.

[Patrunkenphat7]

So is Deathblade going to be considered "Blade Control?" I am guessing yes, but it plays out very different from other blade variants. It's like a blue Jund deck.

[Pdingo]

@Patrunkenphat7

It's a completly other Deck.
It's more a Midrange Deck then a Controll deck like Esperblade.

Why write all here? I think we had a 4c Shaman/Deathblade Treath.^^

[Water_Wizard]

@Patrunkenphat7

It's a completly other Deck.
It's more a Midrange Deck then a Controll deck like Esperblade.

Why write all here? I think we had a 4c Shaman/Deathblade Treath.^^

I started this thread over in Established a few months ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25204-4-Color-Deathrite-Shaman

At the time the thread was started, the debate was between the tempo version (19 lands, 8 cantrips, no Jace) and the mid-range version (23 lands and planeswalkers).

The mid-range version of the deck as had more success as of late, although I image that the tempo version is underrepresented.

The primer and thread need some updating, but I am happy to insert any information that people are willing to pm me. I know that there have been many recent articles and finishes with this deck. I've been preparing for the bar exam and the thread kind of died, so I haven't been taking the time to keep up with it.

[Final Fortune]

Something I'm trying, not really anything out of the blue (there is a pun in that somewhere) but baleful strix is something I've wanted to try

I could see myself missing the Ponder, but my thought was with Baleful Strix, it cantrips and functions as pseudo~removal (insofar that anything it blocks will die), it can't find me land or shuffle my deck though, the supreme verdict was cut because the only creature based decks I've been really running into are jund, and perish does exactly what I want verdict to do...but cheaper.

As for bob, the reason I can fathom why it hasn't been played is this, the deck runs a (relatively) high curve, we have jace, batterskull, lingering souls, force of will etc, things that when flipped, are a punch in the face, we're not Jund/Esper Deathblade and can manipulate the top of our deck or mitigate the damage with DRS. In my experience, I've felt that, although the extra cards would be huge, it's not that needed in the deck.

I have similar feelings regarding Dark Confident vs Baleful Strix, as far as 2 drops are concerned it's more important to stabilize in turns 1 thru' 3 in order to reach Jace, The Game Ender than it is to gain incremental board position and card advantage if A) Dark Confident avoids removal and B) Dark Confident deters an attack.

The other niggling issue is that Dark Confident is a black card in a deck that needs blue cards, Baleful Strix makes Force of Will significantly more reliable.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I am glad that people are thinking that DeathBlade is a different deck, and I agree. But then that raises the question: is EsperBlade dead? If the mods don't count DeathBlade as "UWx Blade Control," then it seems highly unlikely that this thread will remain in decks to beat next month. I know that I have personally been having more success with DeathBlade since March, and I am never looking back.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I am glad that people are thinking that DeathBlade is a different deck, and I agree. But then that raises the question: is EsperBlade dead? If the mods don't count DeathBlade as "UWx Blade Control," then it seems highly unlikely that this thread will remain in decks to beat next month. I know that I have personally been having more success with DeathBlade since March, and I am never looking back.

I don't really count EsperBlade as a different deck altogether, given U/W stoneblade was more aggro-control, and Esper was more dedicated control, Deathblade is simply bladecontrol going in a different direction.

Which I am personally fine with.

[Pdingo]

Why should Esper be dead? No it isn't at all.^^ In Europe is still popular and i think in the USA too. A lot People Try only Deathblade now.
Deathblade is more a Midrange deck then a Controll deck with the Shaman's.

[AEnesidem]

Why should Esper be dead? No it isn't at all.^^ In Europe is still popular and i think in the USA too. A lot People Try only Deathblade now.
Deathblade is more a Midrange deck then a Controll deck with the Shaman's.

I actually have the impression that stoneblade altogether isn't popular at all in Europe. I rarely see it in European tops and BoM had none in the top (except a deathblade list). That's my impression at least.

I'm a bit at a loss with the deck ATM. I can't seem to find a list that i like and haven't been scoring too well with it lately. I'd test deathblade if it weren't for the 100+ euro's i have to drop for confidants.

[HSCK]

So is there a consensus moving forward on whether Deathblade belongs on this thread or another?

[useL]

If you put Deathrite Shaman and Tropical Island in the deck, I would say that it's another thread. On a side note I went 4-1-1 in the Legacy tournament Sunday at GP Gothenburg without any deathbladingbusiness and the deck works just fine.

[Patrunkenphat7]

If you put Deathrite Shaman and Tropical Island in the deck, I would say that it's another thread. On a side note I went 4-1-1 in the Legacy tournament Sunday at GP Gothenburg without any deathbladingbusiness and the deck works just fine.

Yeah the deck obviously isn't bad. It's better than 95% of the decks on this forum. It's just that when you compare it side by side with Deathblade, a similar deck, Deathblade seems to get the edge in most matchups. Deathblade is also better in the Esper vs Deathblade matchup, and that's a pretty big deal considering the popularity of the archetype.

[kingsey]

I actually have the impression that stoneblade altogether isn't popular at all in Europe. I rarely see it in European tops and BoM had none in the top (except a deathblade list). That's my impression at least.

I'm a bit at a loss with the deck ATM. I can't seem to find a list that i like and haven't been scoring too well with it lately. I'd test deathblade if it weren't for the 100+ euro's i have to drop for confidants.

Come back to bant :tongue:

[KobeBryan]

gonna be taking the list to a tournament. Will be grinding it for the next 3 weeks.

any suggestions?

lands
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland

creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Business
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize



Sideboard
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
1 sword of feast and famine
1 Counterspell
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Vindicate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage

[Final Fortune]

How do you expect to hold the line vs Goblins?

[HSCK]

Is Goblins big enough to worry about that? It's the usual removal and disruption package for most Stoneblade decks.

[KobeBryan]

Is Goblins big enough to worry about that? It's the usual removal and disruption package for most Stoneblade decks.

Goblins not really. What is the best tool to fight goblins? engineered explosiveS?

I already have supreme verdicts and jittes.

[Kontrol Issues]

I've been playing esperblade for awhile now, but the one card I don't play is karakas. Maze of ith has been great 4 me in my games but I don't really have any experience with it. I know about the tricks you can do with the clique and such, its a maindeck answer for reanimator, but in my experience the maze has helped me long enuf to get an answer or a threat. Why is karakas so much better than maze?

[Grand Superior]

I've been playing esperblade for awhile now, but the one card I don't play is karakas. Maze of ith has been great 4 me in my games but I don't really have any experience with it. I know about the tricks you can do with the clique and such, its a maindeck answer for reanimator, but in my experience the maze has helped me long enuf to get an answer or a threat. Why is karakas so much better than maze?

One important (and quite common) interaction is with Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn. Karakas deals with Emrakul quite well (Sneak Attack aside) whereas Maze of Ith neither removes Emrakul from the table nor protects you from Annihilator 6. Having that misers Karakas to randomly deal with Emrakul can be quite useful.

Karakas also produces white mana. Maze of Ith doesn't produce any mana.

[luckme10]

One important (and quite common) interaction is with Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn. Karakas deals with Emrakul quite well (Sneak Attack aside) whereas Maze of Ith neither removes Emrakul from the table nor protects you from Annihilator 6. Having that misers Karakas to randomly deal with Emrakul can be quite useful.


So does Mortarpod + baleful strix. And it's tutorable via stoneforge mystic.
Oh, and did I mention that Mortarpod costs 10 cents?

[useL]

I've been playing esperblade for awhile now, but the one card I don't play is karakas. Maze of ith has been great 4 me in my games but I don't really have any experience with it. I know about the tricks you can do with the clique and such, its a maindeck answer for reanimator, but in my experience the maze has helped me long enuf to get an answer or a threat. Why is karakas so much better than maze?

You can tap Karakas for mana.

[Shaka1333]

If Deathrite Shaman had one thoughness like Bob, i would definitely consider playing Mortarpod.
Mortarpod with Baleful Strix is cute and all but i feel like it costs too much mana...

[Dzra]

So does Mortarpod + baleful strix. And it's tutorable via stoneforge mystic.

The very earliest you could get this online would be t4. That is likely two swings too late to be relevant against Emrakul. Not to mention the second creature that kills you while you are looking for another Strix.

Either way, if Show and Tell resolves, you are probably in a bad spot. Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize should have been doing work long before you'd hope to need Karakas anyways.


Oh, and did I mention that Mortarpod costs 10 cents?

Because it isn't playable.

And just throwing it out there, but I don't see any reason not to discuss Deathblade here as well as straight Esper. The decks are extremely close in construction and play (and most likely straight Esper is just worse for the time being anyways). I could use some discussion about Baleful Strix verses Dark Confidant though. Despite Bob having a much higher powerful level, Strix has a lot of points in its favor, especially if you are trying to MD FoW.

[dunk]

I know that Mortarpod sounds too cute, but I wouldn't dismiss it instantly. It has has some interesting applications both with Lingering Souls and Baleful Strix, it's tutorable removal that deals with a lot of nasty creatures and it can finish the opponent at an even boardstate. I could see it as a sideboard option for few metas. Problem though: A lot of times, even against a deck where it will be a good card to board in, just grabbing Jitte and / or Batterskull will be the better play.

[Dzra]

Baleful Strix by itself is great at dealing with attacking creatures. Jitte can handle Bob, Shaman, and the rest much more efficiently.

[learntolove6]

So I feel pretty comfortable in most of my match-ups, but punishing jund is just a nightmare. Does anyone have any suggestions as to helping that? I'm still running Vidi's GP list (and liking it a lot), with the following sideboard:

2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
2 Geist of St. Traft
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Perish
1 Disenchant

My plan yesterday (where I lost to it in the finals of my FNM event) was to pull out all of my counterspells, my Jitte,, 1 inquisition of Kozilek, and 1 Jace for 2 RiP, 2 Surgical, 2 Geist of St. Dude, 1 Sword, 1 Perish, and 1 Supreme Verdict. I'm convinced that I still need Spell pierce in the deck to deal with Liliana, because without Lingering Souls it felt really bad. Does anyone have any advice?

[KobeBryan]

So I feel pretty comfortable in most of my match-ups, but punishing jund is just a nightmare. Does anyone have any suggestions as to helping that? I'm still running Vidi's GP list (and liking it a lot), with the following sideboard:

2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
2 Geist of St. Traft
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Perish
1 Disenchant

My plan yesterday (where I lost to it in the finals of my FNM event) was to pull out all of my counterspells, my Jitte,, 1 inquisition of Kozilek, and 1 Jace for 2 RiP, 2 Surgical, 2 Geist of St. Dude, 1 Sword, 1 Perish, and 1 Supreme Verdict. I'm convinced that I still need Spell pierce in the deck to deal with Liliana, because without Lingering Souls it felt really bad. Does anyone have any advice?

divert or misdirection.

[rancOr_]

I would play a 2nd perish. It's MVP against them, and against other decks too. Keep in pierces for lil/hymn/choke and get value with souls/snaps. I don't play rip, but board in 1surgical(not even2)as u don't want to dilute ur deck too much.

[Deadpool09]

So what happened to the deathblade version of this deck? I was hoping it would place atleast top 16 at the last scg open. Or was the previous ones just a fluke?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been returning my Strix after blocking with Academy Ruins and I gotta say its AMAZING. restricted removal and blocker/draw spell that recycles. Yes please. I'm gonna switch to an Intuition-friendly build and go nuts.

-abc

[luckme10]

So what happened to the deathblade version of this deck? I was hoping it would place atleast top 16 at the last scg open. Or was the previous ones just a fluke?

Naw, it just won again.

[ThediscoPower]

Speaking of the latest scg, the esperblade deck in the top 16 has something that got my attention, in the sense that he had a tower of the mangistrate in the sideboard, which hit me as a card i never really thought about in the past. Has anyone tested that card in the past? it does seem like a pretty good card to bring in a mirror match.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So is traditional Esper Stoneblade dead for Deathblade? Or is there still hope for those of us that prefer Stoneblade?

[thecrav]

he had a tower of the mangistrate in the sideboard, which hit me as a card i never really thought about in the past. Has anyone tested that card in the past? it does seem like a pretty good card to bring in a mirror match.

This was commonly seen as a 2 of or more a few months ago. I think it was better back then when the main plan of Stoneforge decks was to jam Batterskull, whereas now Stoneforge, especially Deathblade (blue junk), can win fairly easily without ever getting anything equipped.

[ThediscoPower]

This was commonly seen as a 2 of or more a few months ago. I think it was better back then when the main plan of Stoneforge decks was to jam Batterskull, whereas now Stoneforge, especially Deathblade (blue junk), can win fairly easily without ever getting anything equipped.

mmm, looking at thecounsil.es, by a few months you mean something like a year, right? However, what you say is true and makes sense. probably not worth it.


FuzzyLumpkins
So is traditional Esper Stoneblade dead for Deathblade? Or is there still hope for those of us that prefer Stoneblade?

Dead? don't think so. Fallen out of favor? maybe, but certainly not dead. It's not like esper had any really bad matchups and that the metagame is dominated by them.

[Grand Superior]

So is traditional Esper Stoneblade dead for Deathblade? Or is there still hope for those of us that prefer Stoneblade?

I certainly don't think that traditional Esper is dead. To me, one of the main strengths of traditional Esper Stoneblade is its 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp basic land suite and how it is capable of functioning almost entirely off of basic lands despite being a tricolour deck (see Vidianto Wijaya @ Grand Prix Denver). I've tried Esper Deathblade at one Legacy tournament and had a miserable experience. I hated how fragile and greedy the mana was and I immediately switched back to Stoneblade. Who knows, maybe I was just unlucky and maybe Deathrite Shaman does make the greedy mana base okay.

I'd wait for a couple more tournament results and see how the meta responds. I know I'll still be rocking a Deathrite Shaman-less Esper deck.

[sdematt]

Speaking of the latest scg, the esperblade deck in the top 16 has something that got my attention, in the sense that he had a tower of the mangistrate in the sideboard, which hit me as a card i never really thought about in the past. Has anyone tested that card in the past? it does seem like a pretty good card to bring in a mirror match.

How do you search for it in this deck? Or you just hope to draw it? Seems fine against your deck, especially in say, Maverick, but as a mirror breaker? Uncertain.

The new manabase on the Deathblade variants are absolutely atrocious. Nevermind the variants splashing for decay. That's just stupid. You're asking for it when you run 4 colours in Legacy.

-Matt

[HSCK]

I just run 24 lands and one of the three core basics. Combined with Deathrites the mana base isn't nearly as greedy as it may seem. The deck definitely has a lot of play to it; it's becoming increasingly difficult to choose just regular Esperblade over Deathblade.

[ivanpei]

After seeing a UWr list doing well in the Scg open, I'm intriqued. It packed 4 bolts, 4 stp and 3 Grim Lavamancers. I initially thought it was overkill, but seeing as how most decks are creature based midrange, having tons of cheap removal makes sense. A single Grim Lavamancer if left unchecked, can shut down Deathblade.

Of course there are some wacky inclusions in the list i dont agree with like Restoration Angels and Ponders. There needs to be more Jaces and Counterspells/more disruption.

[Tanith]

I agree with you about the Restoration Angel, but i'm in with Ponders, even Preordain would be a good choice.
What I will never understand is why play Swords To Plowshares in the same deck that runs Lightning Bolts. It makes no sense to me at all.

What's more, Geist of Saint Traft is a week 2/2 body and can easily be blocked. He needs a sword most of the times but on the other hand I think Stoneforge Mystic is really slow.

[TheArchitect]

What I will never understand is why play Swords To Plowshares in the same deck that runs Lightning Bolts. It makes no sense to me at all.

What's more, Geist of Saint Traft is a week 2/2 body and can easily be blocked. He needs a sword most of the times but on the other hand I think Stoneforge Mystic is really slow.

I dont think the lightning bolts are going to damage players 95% of the time. They are to clear room so geist cant be blocked, or kill problem creatures.

[Zombie]

Or Jaces.

[Malakai]

Lightning Bolt kills almost every creature in the format, and it hits planeswalkers.

[apistat_commander]

After seeing a UWr list doing well in the Scg open, I'm intriqued. It packed 4 bolts, 4 stp and 3 Grim Lavamancers. I initially thought it was overkill, but seeing as how most decks are creature based midrange, having tons of cheap removal makes sense. A single Grim Lavamancer if left unchecked, can shut down Deathblade.

Of course there are some wacky inclusions in the list i dont agree with like Restoration Angels and Ponders. There needs to be more Jaces and Counterspells/more disruption.

Did you notice that his board was almost entirely counters to bring in G2? That list is essentially giving up G1 against any sort of combo and hoping that packing counters G2/3 will be enough to bridge the gap. At that point, why are you even playing blue? Why not just play Jund or something that has an edge on all of the fair decks?

Anyone have an Esper or UW list that they like? Deathblade doesn't really appeal to me but it seems that Esper has fallen off of the map, though a standard Esper list came in at 10th in Columbus.

[Kirika]

@apistat_commander
I been running an esper list control list with Dark Confidant for years. It does well for local legacy events and I have narrowly missed top 32 at the last star city event I was at.

Deathblade runs Dark Confidants which is the big advantage over the esper lists that don't. Deathrite Shaman I'm not sure about it makes your blue count really low but is so good in any grave yard match ups and lets you play turn 2 Clique and turn 3 Jace.

Confidant Stone Blade
Artifact (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Black (7)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Blue (15+1 gold)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Gold (2)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate

White (11)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Lingering Souls
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (22)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
1 Darkblast (elves, r/u delver, death/taxes, confidant mirrors)
1 Disenchant (Equipment, Choke)
1 Duress (control/combo)
2 Flusterstorm (control/combo)
1 Force of Will (combo)
1 Humility (big creature decks, reanimator, sneak/show)
1 Perish (Green decks)
3 Rest in Peace (Graveyard hate)
1 Supreme Verdict (creatures)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (green decks, control)
1 Vendilion Clique (control/combo)
1 Zealous Persecution (elves, death+taxes, mirror)

[Deadpool09]

But here's the thing, I've been playing a similar uwr tempo list months before this last open. The thing is, you will lose to nimble mongoose. And if playing rest in piece is our answer to goyf and goose, then lavamancer tiago become worthless. Anyways I love playing deathbalde, its definitely more proactive than esperstoneblade. I think main decking 2 baleful strix will help this deck survive mid game

[Zombie]

The problem with Deathblade, IMHO, is that it tries to occupy that metagame slot of trying to out-fair the other fair decks (aka what Jund, Shardless, Nic Fit, even Elves when in a fair mood try to do) while just being worse at it than any of them. Many lists I've seen cut Souls, at which point I just have to ask, why even play Esperblade? Shardless would just be better, no? Of course, if you only have one deck and the traditional Esperblade meta slot is wrong, then trying to put yourself in a less bad spot is of course the correct thing to do, but I'm still skeptical that apart from the aforementioned Deathblade would ever be the correct thing to do. You'd just preferably be on a different deck to begin with.

The Deathrite-less Bob builds seem just plain better to me.

[TheArchitect]

I'm also wondering how these SCG Deathblade lists are top 8ing through combo decks? Deathblade is hardly even a blue deck. Todds winning list from the last SCG has 3 FoW (with 14 blue cards), 1 clique and 2 thoughtseize main. In the SB he only has 2 more seizes, 1 FoW and 2 meddling mages. Thats 4 2-for-1 counterspells, 4 discard, and 3 hatebears, not very much game against combo. Even with Vidi's 16+ counterspell/discard list combo is still not always that favored. Are the combo players at scg opens non-existent or just bad?

[blindspotxxx]

He also has a detentions sphere and a snapcaster mage and a couple of Wastelands. I guess he isn't matched up to a lot of Combo decks in general and in the post board games he brings in so much combo hate it's not funny.

You should watch his matches they are so good!

Postboard additional Combo Hate:

4th FOW
2nd Detention Sphere
2 more Thoughtseizes
3 Geist of St. Traft
2 Meddling Mage

I keep on playtesting his list and you seem to rape Show and Tell Decks postboard.

[thefreakaccident]

I'm also wondering how these SCG Deathblade lists are top 8ing through combo decks? Deathblade is hardly even a blue deck. Todds winning list from the last SCG has 3 FoW (with 14 blue cards), 1 clique and 2 thoughtseize main. In the SB he only has 2 more seizes, 1 FoW and 2 meddling mages. Thats 4 2-for-1 counterspells, 4 discard, and 3 hatebears, not very much game against combo. Even with Vidi's 16+ counterspell/discard list combo is still not always that favored. Are the combo players at scg opens non-existent or just bad?

They're just bad.

[TheArchitect]

He also has a detentions sphere and a snapcaster mage and a couple of Wastelands. I guess he isn't matched up to a lot of Combo decks in general and in the post board games he brings in so much combo hate it's not funny.

You should watch his matches they are so good!

Postboard additional Combo Hate:

4th FOW
2nd Detention Sphere
2 more Thoughtseizes
3 Geist of St. Traft
2 Meddling Mage

I keep on playtesting his list and you seem to rape Show and Tell Decks postboard.

I can see it being decent against S&T. But that list doesnt look like it has a better matchup that deadguy ale against anything Storm based. 4 Thalia is almost better than 4 Force of will and other than that Deadguy would have more discard and hate bears and it still has a pretty bad storm matchup.


They're just bad.

Watching todd get punted wins by that dredge player and seeing people choosing to play ANT over TES was giving me the impression that that's more likely the case.

[Zombie]

Choosing ANT over TES doesn't make you a bad player. Punts? Yes.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

ANT is more versatile and is a bit faster. Also, not going Burning Wish is a good choice these days, Grim Tutor is so much better.

Why does this list not have a 'tempo control' build with 3-4 wastes and Stifles, OR a heavier actual control build featuring e. tutors, CB-Top lock with mystic into batterskull, a 5 turn clock?

Its as if no one plays it either way and I dunno why not. Its confounding to me.

I tossed an Academy Ruins into my list with 3 Strix and am tickled at their effectiveness. I want badly to play a single Venser the Sojourner, but seems risk'e.

One Humility is something i would like to see play as it turns batterskull into a 4-turn clock and shuts so many strategies down, its in my sb with a single e. tutor. Yes, I understand that it turns my other creatures off. So far its beeen worth it.

-ABC

[Lejay]

I'm also wondering how these SCG Deathblade lists are top 8ing through combo decks? Deathblade is hardly even a blue deck. Todds winning list from the last SCG has 3 FoW (with 14 blue cards), 1 clique and 2 thoughtseize main. In the SB he only has 2 more seizes, 1 FoW and 2 meddling mages. Thats 4 2-for-1 counterspells, 4 discard, and 3 hatebears, not very much game against combo. Even with Vidi's 16+ counterspell/discard list combo is still not always that favored. Are the combo players at scg opens non-existent or just bad?

This is precisely the reason why he had a lot of success.
Currently people are running a lot of extra-hate because I presented a lot of confidence on this forum about Omniclash being the best deck in the format. This can be checked by watching people's sideboards and the answers people gave in the top8 profiles from last week-end. With a spotlight on his face the deck is hated a ton and that hate has some splash damage on the rest of the combos. There was only 1 non-omnitell combo deck in the last SCG top16 : elves, that either can dodge several kind of hates or has alternative plans.
With everybody hating a lot the deck (which still placed one player in the top8 and another one top16), bonus goes to people letting the others do the job for them, having most combo decks crushed in the early rounds. People like Todd Anderson, with a deck able to out grind very reliably these decks that focus on beating combo with their sideboard or even their main deck, have a very good time navigating into this kind of metagame.
In Columbus, Todd Anderson's only loss was to Omnitell.

[Malakai]

I think you oversell yourself there. People just looked at the last two open top8/16s, and looked at the previous Columbus metagames.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey Lejay, where is your Reid Duke quote from?

[ThediscoPower]

Hey Lejay, where is your Reid Duke quote from?

I think it was in an article on starcity by reid duke. Don't remember which one tho.

edit here it is : http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=23767

[learntolove6]

I want to jam 2 wastelands in my deck to fight shardless and punishing jund, but i'm having such issues. i'm still just on vidianto's list (i'm still very convinced that it's awesome), so i'm thinking I want to cut counterspell and academy ruins to fit it in. counterspell is so good, but i side it out often enough in fair match ups. it hurts my combo match up a little bit, but i dont think it's that much. my other option is to run 61 cards but that has to be awful. do those cuts seem fine to the hive mind of the source?

[Lejay]

I think you oversell yourself there. People just looked at the last two open top8/16s, and looked at the previous Columbus metagames.
It's possible I oversell myself. But to be more precise I actually think I oversold myself. :)

At least my analysis is coherent with the fact that removing the dark confidants for geists didn't work well for Todd Anderson.
Also Brad Nelson lost his last round to storm.

[Jessenator]

This is precisely the reason why he had a lot of success.
Currently people are running a lot of extra-hate because I presented a lot of confidence on this forum about Omniclash being the best deck in the format. This can be checked by watching people's sideboards and the answers people gave in the top8 profiles from last week-end. With a spotlight on his face the deck is hated a ton and that hate has some splash damage on the rest of the combos. There was only 1 non-omnitell combo deck in the last SCG top16 : elves, that either can dodge several kind of hates or has alternative plans.
With everybody hating a lot the deck (which still placed one player in the top8 and another one top16), bonus goes to people letting the others do the job for them, having most combo decks crushed in the early rounds. People like Todd Anderson, with a deck able to out grind very reliably these decks that focus on beating combo with their sideboard or even their main deck, have a very good time navigating into this kind of metagame.
In Columbus, Todd Anderson's only loss was to Omnitell.

I was his OmniTell opponent, recurring discard game 1 got me good.. Game 2 he did not keep any disruption but kept a t2 Geist hand, I just happened to have the nuts and kill him turn 2 after he tapped out. Game 3 I opened 3 Brainstorms and got my Show and Tell taken away with Thoughtseize, and then I floated a Dream Halls + Enter the Infinite on top of my library until I got to hardcast-Dream Halls mana. He didn't see the play of Wasting my fetch, I don't blame him. Meddling Mage was actually deadly if Dream Halls were named instead of Cunning Wish, I happened to remember his list the previous week and boarded in a Sapphire Charm and killed him after drawing my deck.

I think I got a lot of free-wins due to this deck being somewhat "newer". And a BUG opponent mulling to Deathrite Shaman since I was on the draw 80% of my matches.

Stoneblade is still a scary deck to play against, I'm still not very confident about my game 1s against Stoneblade or BUG. Although permanent based hate is every combo player's nightmare. You must have an alternative plan against Leyline, experienced combo players will even mulligan until they see it because their opponent have no other relevant interactions. Running Ethersworn Canoist / Meddling Mage is an excellent part to start hating out combo, even Detention Sphere is somewhat hard to play against and flexible against other decks. Todd's deck was set-up even more fair than the older Deathblade decks, but dedicated powerful silver-bullets in the sideboard to hate out popular combo decks. Most newer storm player will straight up fold to a Meddling Mage / Ethersworn Canoist because they don't expect Stoneblade to bring in those cards in most cases.

Since counterspells seem very mediocore in the current meta against these "fair" decks, I suggest a mixture of heavy permanent-based hate in the sideboard for Stoneblade in the future.

[apistat_commander]

Since counterspells seem very mediocore in the current meta against these "fair" decks, I suggest a mixture of heavy permanent-based hate in the sideboard for Stoneblade in the future.

You aren't bringing in counters against fair decks, so why does it matter if they are in the meta? The question is what is the best form of combo hate for your sideboard. I still think Flusterstorm is the strongest hate. It goes live from turn 1, you can flash it back with Snapcaster, and it is a must answer (for Storm at least). Canonist and Meddling Mage are both powerful, but less flexible. Each has their strengths against various combo decks, but if I am dedicating slots in my board to "combo," Flusterstorm is my go to.

Edit: It seems like one of the greatest strengths of Esper, Lingering Souls, has been largely negated by the amount of Deathrite Shamans running around. Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26286-2nd-Jupiter-NELC-with-Esper-Deathblade). It is basically just Esper with a playset of Deathrite Shamans added. I wanted to find a way to jam Wasteland into Esper and Deathrite works pretty well with that plan. The problem is that you are still going into 4 colors and adding colorless lands and his list is still running LS.

I was thinking something like this:

Creatures [13]
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique

Artifacts [3]
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives

Instants [13]
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
1x Counterspell

Sorceries [6]
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder

Planeswalkers [3]
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands[23]
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Marsh Flats
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
3x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

I cut the Lingering Souls for Ponder/4th Force because the blue count was pretty low. They could probably turn into something else (Vindicate, Supreme Verdict) but this is a starting place.

[matunos]

Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.

It can be good at winning counter wars, though, and is maybe good against Omniclash since they'll rarely be able to pay (but may have Flusterstorms of their own). You could occassionally catch Hide Tide unaware as well, I suppose.

[Jessenator]

You aren't bringing in counters against fair decks, so why does it matter if they are in the meta? The question is what is the best form of combo hate for your sideboard. I still think Flusterstorm is the strongest hate. It goes live from turn 1, you can flash it back with Snapcaster, and it is a must answer (for Storm at least). Canonist and Meddling Mage are both powerful, but less flexible. Each has their strengths against various combo decks, but if I am dedicating slots in my board to "combo," Flusterstorm is my go to.

Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm. I really think the best form of hate against combo is permanent based hate. I actually enjoy playing blue decks over anything else. I absolutely hate playing Maverick / Junk decks game 2-3 because of the variety of hatebears they can bring in.

Discard and counterspells are a 1 for 1, if a slow-clock is applied, the combo player can rebuild quite quickly with a plan "B" combo or digging with many cantrips. Hatebears stop them cold from combo-ing if used correctly. Making them have that 1-2 card answer in their sideboard. If they don't have it, or you counter it, you win.. It's that simple. You don't really want to be playing a reactive game against a proactive combo deck in my opinion. Discard is proactive but unreliable due to Leyline. Hatebears provide a small clock and pretty much turns proactive side right back to you, where they have to react to your field. I'm not sure if 100% of that made sense, but I am absolutely devastated by an Ethersworn Canoist / Medding Mage / Thalia / Teeg, I don't want to even think about multiples.

[Malakai]

Anyone have any experience with a Blade list like this
I played several lists quite like that. I even tried Ancestral Vision. They all felt worse than being able to cast Dark Confidant.


Flusterstorm is ironically marginal against storm because they generally either strip it from your hand before going off or silence you (depending on the storm variant). One way or another, it's rare to actually be able to fluster their tendrils, usually because the storm player punted.
This is riduclous. It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.

My advice would be to use your cheap counters more aggressively against combo decks.

Hatebears are good, I'm not denying that, especially if they are Ethersworn Canonist or Thalia. However, hatebears are pretty miserable against Show and Tell. Teeg and Meddling Mage don't stop them, Thalia can be played around, and Canonist--while good--really only shines against the Omnishow lists. None of that makes them bad, however; in my mind, what makes them bad is the fact that S&T plays Force of Will. Non-blue decks have no choice but to just run them out there, but for blue decks, if it gets countered, the game is over because you don't have the mana to fight over the stack.


Alright, I can see Flusterstorm being a good argument for sure. But if the Omnitell player has Cunning Wish they can go get their own Flusterstorm.
They can, but they'd have to get it before I cast my Flusterstorm, so they've already spent a turn wishing. Not sure if you're implying this or not, but don't wait for you S&T player to put an Omni into play before you try to stop them.

[sauce]

This is riduclous. *It's Spell Pierce vs Silence, and generally Force of Will for U against Ad Nauseam / Rest in Peace / Tutor / Wish. * It does work against nearly every card in a Show and Tell player's deck.*


Malakai, you may want to reread Flusterstorm. It cannot counter Rest in Peace (legally.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I played storm for years, literally. TES, FT, FDDT, late IGGY Pop and other varients (Spring Tide). Don't Flusterstorm their Tendrils. Hit their Enabler/Tutor. It's the best plan, especially since that's when they will most likely pop LED in response without passing priority. I use Stifles as well as Flusterstorms. It's pretty good. I attack their fetches with my Wastes and Stifles, it really hurts them. Stifle hits the Storm Trigger as we all know, but also helps in the S&T matchup. Stops a Sneak Attack activation, stops Annihilator, the Extra Turn if relevant, BOTH Top abilities, can foil CB flips, Demon activations (I hear paying 7 life to do nothing is horrible); good against Equipment lists (Stoneforge Mirror), Stoneforge itself on both counts, Planeswalker and DRS Activations, Wasteland and so, so much more it's good against I don't know why it's not played more often within this particular archetype. I haven't ever posted my list, and because of my...Underdeveloped Legacy Scene, my build is different than most of yours. Let me show you:

LAND-21
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp

CREATURES-13
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

SPELLS-26
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD-15
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
*1 Rest in Peace (flex slot)
*1 Enlightened Tutor (flex slot)
1 Stifle

My sideboard is a bit weird, and I know a lot of you won't appreciate the Sided Forces. I play against a large amount of fair lists, and Daze actually does better game 1 within my meta. I side in Forces against the Stax and Stompy matchup I see here as well as the Ichorid, but I don't face control here at all. My list would be more standard than this if I were to go to a tourney, but as it stands, does anyone have any advice/changes/whatever for my list? I have been having major success with it at least in my tri-state region.

-ABC

[useL]

3 Stifle
3 Daze


I am pretty sure that a list that contains those cards together does not count as a Control-deck. This is more of a tempo-esperlist.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Wow, thank you for your input. Can i get some freakin' USEFUL discussion here?

-ABC

[thecrav]

Wow, thank you for your input. Can i get some freakin' USEFUL discussion here?

-ABC

This deck is looking to go for the long game. While Daze and Stifle are great in the first couple turns, we're looking to go several turns beyond that, where they're not so useful. What does Daze hit when they have 4+ mana sources on board? What do you Stifle? A Jacestorm? Their fourth fetch?

With a decklist like this, you might be better off checking out the UW Tempo thread. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-Deck-UW-Tempo/page105)