Persist Hulk Combo

[Gocho]

I watched the Hulk list at GP Providence and see that it shares a lot of cards with the Infinite Persist that we are developing at the Spanish forums.
For Reference:

Top8 at Catalonian League monthly tournament (100 players):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6171&iddeck=44766

The combo works like this: You put in the table:
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Any Persist guy (Safehold Elite,Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap)
Any sacrifice effect (Carrion Feeder, Goblin Bombardment, Altar of Dementia)

You sacrifice the persist guy 1000 times, getting is comes into play and/or the sacrifice effect trigger 1000 times. If the effect is good enough, you win.

So I mix both lists, tweak the list a little and change the kill combo of Hulk for
* Melira + Murderous Redcap (with sacrifice effect at the board)
* Melira + Safehold Elite + Carrion Feeder + Sylvan Safekeeper (for an alpha strike next turn)

This is the initial list:

Lands:

2 Dryad Arbour
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Ancient Tomb

Creatures

4 Melira, Silvok Outcast

4 Safehold Elite
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Protean Hulk

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Body Snatcher

4 Carrion Feeder
1 Scarland Thrinax (the only green creature with a sacrifice effect that doesn't need mana)

Spells
3 Altar of Dementia (or 3 Goblin Bombardment to fight Gaddock)

4 Natural Order
4 Green's Sun Zenith
4 Pattern of Rebirth

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Progenitus
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Viscera seer
1 Reverent Silence (for Leylines)
1 Mogg Fanatic (for Peacekeeper)
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Beast Within
1 Grand Abolisher
2 Xantid Swarm
1 free slot

You have 12 tutors to cast 3 cards at the table and win.
Hulk lets you to combo with almost nothing at the table after facing many removal. Some of the most tricky plays are this:

Cabal Therapy at graveyard, Natural Order at Hand, a single green creature at table:
NO for Hulk, Sacrifice with Therapy looking your opponent hand. Get Body Snatcher + Sylvan Safekeeper + Carrion Feeder + 2 Dryad Arbor, sacrifice Snatcher with his ability at the stack to get Hulk to play again. Sacrifice Hulk to get Melira + Murderous Redcap. Win.

Hulk and Pattern at hand, sacrifice effect and any creature at table:
Play patter on your creature and sacrifice to get Body Snatcher. Discard Hulk. Sacrifice Body Snatcher to get Hulk, combo as usual.

Generally, the deck want to use Zeniths to get the defense and the main combo cards to play (Melira, Safekeeper, persist guy, Scarland Trinax) and attract counters, keeping NO and pattern for the combo turn. Remember that you don't have any manipulation.

Games 2 and 3:
I know, I know. You are going to alert me that all the combo need graveyard and a single hate card would break the funny plays.
Are you sure?

Your opponent have Tormod's Crypt at the board. You need a sacrifice effect (or 2 Cabal Therapy at grave), NO/Pattern at hand and a single creature at the table.

Cast NO for Hulk. Sacrifice. Put Hulk trigger on the stack. If your opponent breaks Tormod's, get combo. If he let the trigger resolves, get Phyrexian Revoker naming Tormod's Crypt + Body Snatcher. Combo as usual and laugh.

If your opponent have Ravenous Trap get Mesmeric Fiend in the place of Revoker.

If your opponent have two different hate cards, you need 2 tutor one to get defense and half of the combo, and the other to get the rest of it. Alternatively, you can side in Grand Abolisher, but I dislike it because is a dead card without White mana sources.

If your opponent have some permanent that doesn't let you win (Solitary Confinement, Worship, Energy Field) but you Side in search Viscera Seer with any of your Hulk Tricks. Sacrifice the persist guy getting infinite 'Scry 1' until you put Beast Within or Reverent Silence at top. Pass the turn :)

Weakness
* An early resolved Gaddock Teeg with some removal crush you because denies all your tutors. You need to draw the Persist combo or Goblin Bombardment without manipulation. You can attack, but the opponent creatures usually are bigger than yours and can keep Gaddock out of combat. Is the main reason to put Goblin Bombardment in the place of Altar of Dementia, adding red, but isn't easy.
* Pattern is weak, because your opponent can kill the creature in response. You can't use Safekeeper to protect it because if you do, Pattern is countered. But I can't find another card to put in this slot and is the only card that can search for Body Snatcher.
* You only have 6 discard effect (10 if you flashback Therapy) so a bunch of Counters is always a problem game1. It's easier when you side in your 2 Xantid Swarms and search for them with Zeniths.

Is fun, is different, have many tricks, nobody expect it and uses Protean Hulk.
Sleeve it and try.

[Octopusman]

Looks fun.

Is there no room for Summoner's Pact in this deck?

I love Melira. Nice deck.

[Mr. Safety]

This is intense...and TBH, dirt cheap to build.

At least until it catches on, lol...

[Xantid Swarm]

As the creator of the Hulk Rebirth deck played at GP Providence, I like this build a lot and have a few suggestions:

-1 Xantid Swarm main deck is a must. Against blue decks, you'll often need it as a GSZ target. Against non-blue it's still useful game 1 as it allow you to cast Pattern without fearing removal and you can sac it for NO.

-Put 1 Qasali Pridemage in your sideboard as a GSZ target to fight various hate.

-I recommand a main deck split between Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder as there is situation when you need one or the other.

-The best card to fight Gaddock Teeg is Slaughter Pact, and I recommand to put 4 of it sideboard. Slaughter Pact allow you to kill Teeg and win same turn (without paying the pact) and it's never a death card as if opponent do not have Teeg, it function like a sac outlet for Hulk (turn 1 GSZ for Dryad Arbor, turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Natural Order for Hulk, Slaughter Pact it for a turn 2 kill).

-Another good card in this deck could be Gitaxian Probe as it permit you to know if the way is free for pattern and NO and it play well with Cabal Therapy.

Good luck with your build!

[Gocho]

Looks fun.

Is there no room for Summoner's Pact in this deck?

I love Melira. Nice deck.

I want the creatures to come into play, not to my hand.

@Xantid Swarm
I'm really happy that you like it :)
I agree with the maindeck Xantid Swarm. Pattern is weak and the anti-removal is a must.

But the Qasali had the same backwards than abolisher. I don't play white, so if I draw it is a dead card...

Feeder is a better option because you can use it as a kill condition. A 1000/1000 zombie can block and kill through almost any printed creature.

I'll test Slaughter Pact and Gitaxian Probe, thanks for the suggestion. I'm playing Thoughtseize in the Probe slot, but after read your primer, perhaps the Probe are a better option.

[AllIsDust]

It actually can't block, since that's an ability he has. I do like this list however, and I feel like you DO want the pridemage even if it sucks to draw. Some decks are playing Leyline of the void heavily and having a way to tutor for it seems strong, rather than playing more non-creature enchantment hate.

[Fett]

Very interested in this deck and am currently putting it together myself.

Is there no room for Birds of Paradise in this list like the other 1? Giving us more accel and another NO target.

Can't we also add a savannah in place of a basic forest to solve the pridemage issue

[Gocho]

It actually can't block, since that's an ability he has. I do like this list however, and I feel like you DO want the pridemage even if it sucks to draw. Some decks are playing Leyline of the void heavily and having a way to tutor for it seems strong, rather than playing more non-creature enchantment hate.

I read my post again and I explain it wrong. The persist guy can block any creature, because it would return always with Melira at the board. Obviously, the Feeder can't block.

I think that I can go with Viridian Zealot in the Pridemage slot. It cost a G more to destroy something, but it's in colors and I'm not going to use the Exalted many times.

@Fett
The only creature that can make me add White seems Abolisher, but 4 colors is too much. I prefer to keep with Red for Goblin Bombardment + Trinax.

The birds is ok in the ZeRo list from Xantid Swarm, but this deck works a little different. You don't need to find Hulk every game to win. You try to put the Melira combo in the board for itself changing card for card, and when the opponent is out of counters/removal, win through a single tutor getting the remaining pieces + defense if needed. For a single piece, you search it, for many pieces or adding defense, you search the Hulk. Remember that all the persist guys buys you time and a returning creature for NO or Pattern.

You don't need to use Zenith (x=7) to find Hulk, many times a simple X=2 for melira or X=3 for trinax works ok.

I don't say that this list is better than the other, because I don't test both of them enough, is simply a little different.

[Fett]

@gocho. Yeah I fish bowled the deck a ton last night and I found the same thing. I had added a savannah in place of a forest but I feel like I may take that out to just be more immune from wasteland. I also might run more fetches as my current meta is under.developed and there aren't many wastelands around. I do wish we could fit grand abolisher in but the double white is too much. I am going to make a cut for a main deck x. Swarm. I am currently running altar not goblin bombardment. I'm gonna get 3 bombardments to try and maybe run a split idk. I want to fit a md seer or two also

[Maveric78f]

How does it work when Melira comes into play while one of your creatures has a -1/-1 counter? Is the counter -1/-1 removed? Or does it only prevent further counters to be placed on your creatures?

[Maveric78f]

Regarding the deck list, it looks to me that the Patterns are not required. You already have 8 other tutors for creatures. You'd better either play some protection (more discard) or tops in these slots, that you call yourself "weak". What do you think?

SafeHold Elite, although cheaper looks very much inferior to Finks which combo (infinite life) means GG against most of the field.

[Fett]

My understanding is that it can't get new counters but any existing counters would stay. Can someone clarify for sure??

I find in fish bowl , not facing removal , that the pattern is great. Idk what others have found

[Gocho]

How does it work when Melira comes into play while one of your creatures has a -1/-1 counter? Is the counter -1/-1 removed? Or does it only prevent further counters to be placed on your creatures?

She doesn't remove -1/-1 counters placed in your creatures before she comes into play.


Regarding the deck list, it looks to me that the Patterns are not required. You already have 8 other tutors for creatures. You'd better either play some protection (more discard) or tops in these slots, that you call yourself "weak". What do you think?

SafeHold Elite, although cheaper looks very much inferior to Finks which combo (infinite life) means GG against most of the field.

Remember that GSZ can't search for Hulk and you have 0 manipulation. Pattern is weak, but i will not go with less than 11 tutors to get almost 1 on the starting hand every game.

If you starts the combo, is GG anyway. Many times the infinite life doesn't matters because you kill the opponent at instant speed or you have a 1000/1000 creature and 5 creatures to chumpblock (Melira, Elite, Safekeeper and 2xDryad Arbor). If I could play 6 Elites I will do.

[Gocho]

.

[Maveric78f]

I don't get it Gocho. You don't need the Hulk to win. Why are you always implying you sacced it ?

[Fett]

The hulk will get you all three pieces or whatever pieces you are missing. What he means is unlike the other hulk combo , we can easily just draw all three combo pieces and play them as soon as turn 3 to go off without hulk.

[Maveric78f]

That's what I mean. In this scope, Pattern of Rebirth looks unnecessary. 12 tutors is anyway too much redundancy in any deck that is not called Battle of Wits. The 4 Patterns that are really a weak card could be replaced by tops and more protection. That was my point.

[Gocho]

The hulk will get you all three pieces or whatever pieces you are missing. What he means is unlike the other hulk combo , we can easily just draw all three combo pieces and play them as soon as turn 3 to go off without hulk.

This.

The deck have 3 ways to win:
- Casting/searching the 3 pieces: Melira, persist Guy, Sac effect.
- Hulk that bring missing pieces + Defense (Safekeeper, Revoker, Abolisher)
- Progenitus.

Pattern is weak, but are the 5-8th cards that can get hulk or progenitus into play.

[Fett]

I assume this deck has gone through a lot of changes as.you have developed it. Have you ever tried to squeeze in blue ?? Or run a MD progenitus?? I'm afraid to MD a progenitus without brainstorm. If you draw it the only way to get it back in is body snatcher. The only way to find body snatcher is pattern and at that point I might as well find hulk

[Gocho]

I assume this deck has gone through a lot of changes as.you have developed it. Have you ever tried to squeeze in blue ?? Or run a MD progenitus?? I'm afraid to MD a progenitus without brainstorm. If you draw it the only way to get it back in is body snatcher. The only way to find body snatcher is pattern and at that point I might as well find hulk

The MD Progenitus was the way to avoid Grave Hate, so I put it in the SB. But playing abolisher and Revoker makes the same effect.

I'm thinking about left it out, but is a single slot and can win many games if I side-in wrong (through an unexpected Leyline, for example).

I tried white before the hulk version, but don't try blue. What cards do you want to include? Only manipullation? We have little room for it.

[Fett]

Yeah space is the issue. I think brainstorm would be nice but yeah, it doesn't fit

[Maveric78f]

Brainstorm as a U splashed deck is a bad idea that a lot of people have (including me not so far ago). The fact is that you'll need to fetch to find U and that you will not have any shuffler left to take advantage of the virtual draw 3 provided by brainstorm. However, this deck packs so many shufflers that it would be possible.

[Fett]

Yeah but really gsz is the only shuffler that works with brainstorm. Once.you are shuffling with pattern or NO it should be gg.

[Fett]

So my next question is, what do we cut to fit a MD xantid swarm?

[TraxDaMax]

Does Devoted Druid work for infinite green mana with Melira, Sylvok Outcast?
Just wondering...

also, isnt more kitchen finks better then 4 Safehold Elite, or is safehold just a better staller in the beginning?

[Gocho]

Devoted Druid + Melira doesn't work together.
You can't put the -1/-1 counter on Druid, so you can't use his untap ability

[Fett]

I wanted to run more finks because the life is gg but it almost always means going off a turn slower. A lot of people scoop when u off with saffold anyways , if u go off with alter they are milled , golbin bombardment they r dead , carrion feeder they have to block to stall , the most popular removal spell , swords to plowshares, will just give u a million life anyways if they swords it


I won first place in a small 10 man legacy tournement on Monday

Beat uw stoneforge mystic control 2-0 , bant natural order 2-0 and death and taxes 2-1

Very happy with the way the deck played. Only change I made to the list is -1 pattern +1 xantid swarm md. It helps a lot to have one MD. Made uw stoneforge match a joke. Sideboard I made a few meta changes

[uncletiggy]

This may be small by why not play a split between wooded foothills and verdant catacombs they both still hit every dual?

[Fett]

A lot of times with merfolk and death and taxes (both present in my meta, both 4 wasteland ) you want to fetch a basic on turn one , I currently run 3 forest and 2 swamp and I have thought of cutting one forest for a foothills

[Sigar]

I dont understand:

"Cast NO for Hulk. Sacrifice. Put Hulk trigger on the stack. If your opponent breaks Tormod's, get combo."

How do you combo if Hulk is exiled?

Thanks!

EDIT: So you go for Melira + Safehold + Feeder + Safekeeper instead? What if opponent has infi blockers or can kill you next turn?

[Just me]

Actually, play 1 MD Kitchen Finks to get infi life and a Murderous Redcap on top?

How the combo works in teh example with Tormod's Crypt I do not know.